Episodes
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In the second episode, we speak to Andrea Stone, service director for Children's Social Care in Dudley and Emina Atic-Lee, service manager at Surrey and Borders Partnership NHS Foundation Trust and a member of our National Advisory Forum. The forum provides expert advice, support and challenge to our work and how we achieve our objectives. Both have been registered social workers for over 20 years. They talk to us about why diversity data collection is key to practice and highlight its importance.
Transcript
Ahmina
Hi, I'm Ahmina Ahktar, Head of Equality, Diversity and Inclusion at Social Work England. Welcome to this is Social Work, a podcast from the specialist regulator for social workers, Social Work England. Equality, diversity, and inclusion are sent forward to our work as an effective regulator, an employer. They are inherent in our values, which are to be fearless, independent, transparent, ambitious, collaborative, and to act with integrity.
As part of our equality, diversity, and inclusion action plan, we made a commitment to better understand the social work profession. We're doing this by actively seeking diversity data from social workers on our register to help us to continue to ensure our processes are fair and to set a benchmark for further insight to support this work and following a successful first podcast season.
These special podcast episodes will focus on diversity data collection. In this episode, I'm joined by Andrea Stone, Service Director for Children's Social Care in Dudley and Emina Atic-Lee Service Manager at NHS Foundation Trust. Emina is also a member of our National Advisory Forum.
The forum provides expert advice, support, and challenge to our work and how we achieve our objectives at Social Work England. Both have been registered social workers for over 20 years. They talk to us about why diversity data collection is key to practice and highlight its importance. We hope you enjoy.
So I'm delighted to be joined by Andrea and Emina today. So before we go any further, I'm gonna ask you to introduce yourself. So I'll start with Andrea. Can you say who you are, your job title and link to the social work profession?
Andrea
Okay. I'm Andrea Stone and I'm service director for Children's Social Care in Dudley.
And I've been a social worker for about 22 years.
Ahmina
Thanks Andrea, and we'll go to Emina.
Emina
Hi. So I'm Emina, I'm a registered social worker. I've been social worker for the same time as Andrea, 22 years, and I worked for Local Authority for 22 years after the last year when I joined the NHS. I'm also a member of the National Advisory Forum, which works with Social Work England closely, and I've been a member since March 2020 when it first kind of formed.
Thank you both. So we've been talking about the importance of diversity data. In part one, we were talking about the importance of providing information about our identities and how providing information about our characteristics has become commonplace. And we're often asked to share this data when we apply for a job or a course or when we register with the new service.
And in this part of the podcast, we'll continue to explore this, and look for some thoughts and reflections from Emina and Andrea. So I'm just going to move on to my first question. Why is it important for social workers to share this data with us? So, I'll start with you Emina.
Emina
Yes, thank you.
I've been thinking about this and I think as a registered social worker, I feel a real sense of belonging within the social work community. I'm really aware that this community is very kind of wide and diverse, as over 22 years I worked with colleagues, when we write your backgrounds in terms of culture, ethnicity, sexual orientation, disability, and I think it's this kind of richness and diversity that makes social work of the most resourceful professions in the public sector.
I think they to serve the needs of our diverse communities. And I think this is something we need to feel quite proud of as a profession. And I think the only way for us to have a clear sense of who the eyes are in the profession, and what our identity represents is for social workers to share their personal characteristics with Social Work England, at the point of kind of registering or renewing our registration. And then what would happen, I think is social workers, we would have access to overall figures collected. And I know as enough member that when social work England writes their annual report, there's a really good data around diversity and equality.
And we need to, I think, contribute to that. And I think we also hopefully make sure as a workforce we are kind of better presented within social work itself and enough as well. And I think we'll also, hopefully we'll have the regulator kind of have a better understanding. Who we are, so they're better equipped to meet our needs and ensure there's a fairness at every level.
Ahmina
Thanks, Emina really helpful to hear your reflections. If we come to you, Andrea.
Andrea
Yeah, so for me, I think it's really important so we can have Social Work England and social work itself have a really good understanding about the makeup of the social workers across the system. And when we think about geographically where they work, where there are more social workers with different protected characteristics, where they are, are there areas where there aren't any, but then we would like to have more.
And I think it also helps us to evidence to the communities that we have the right workers available that look like the communities that they serve really. So I think that's really important. And the same way that we expect when we work with our families and communities, we wanna have a good understanding about their areas of protected characteristics, what, where the diversity is and when we think about things, for example, health inequalities.
That information that helps us to know whether we're providing a good service or whether or not there's things we need to do differently. So I think it's really important that people are able to be willing to give their data around diversity issues so we know exactly what's there, how we might meet their needs, or where there are any gaps.
Ahmina
Thanks Andrea. Really helpful. And Emina, you touched on social workers sharing their diversity data as part of the renewal process. So in part one, I explained that over the last year we'd been asking social workers to record their diversity data, but the numbers were lower than we'd hoped. And that's why we've decided to include the diversity questions as part of our renewal process because renewals is when we experience the greatest engagement with our processes. So we really hope that that's gonna continue to boost our numbers and we can see that there has been an increase. So what are your thoughts on including these questions as part of the renewal process?
Um, if I come to you first, Emina.
Emina
So I think it feels absolutely right. The social work is being quite proactive about this, and I think there's a thinking creatively and making it easy for social workers to share data if they want to do so. What I think is important during the renewal process is that social workers are giving real clarity as to why they're asked to share their press information so they can make informed decisions, and I think this has been achieved. If you look at the current process and the explanation offered when you first try to renew your registration, I think that's pretty clear. So people are able to make those decisions and it is crucial that, you know, at that point the questions are short to the point.
And I know the social workers, especially frontline social workers, a really short of time. So doing anything that requires a long time may not be possible. And I think also what it does at that point, it kind of, when you are renewing registration, it's a good point to think about your identity I think as well.
Because for all of us, I think it reminds us what we as individuals bring to our social work practice and how we work with our colleagues, how we work with our communities. So it's a good point, how to pause and think, you know, who am I and how this impacts on, on the work that I do.
Ahmina
That's great.
Thank you. And if I come to you, Andrea, for your reflections.
Andrea
Yes. So I think it's really important to ask around the time of registration, and I agree with Emina that it gives people an opportunity to think about their identity. But I also think that bit around why we're asking, why social working than they're asking is really important.
And I would go further and say that because there is some reluctance or there may be some reluctance from some people to do that. Almost saying why we are doing it and then being able to demonstrate evidently in the future what's been done with that data because of the reluctance. So I think it's important to ask the question, but definitely be able to evidence what difference it's gonna make to, to social workers and, and particularly for workers that might feel there's some detriment to them by providing their data.
Ahmina
Thank you both. And, and in part one, we talked about how important it is for us as a professional regulator to have this data and that diversity data, alongside other data, really helps us to have a fuller picture of the makeup of the register to help us identify any issues and enable us to address them. And really helps us to kind of give a bit more of an insight around how we can potentially improve our processes as well. So we know anecdotally that there's an over representation of black and ethnic minority social workers and men in our fitness to practice processes.
So being able to evidence that by having a fuller data set would really enable us to explore those issues further. So we really want to think about how we can use this data effectively. And the more that we have, the more we were able to use that as an evidence based, we're able to support in exploring these issues further. We also intend to publish this information anonymously and we really hope that we'll be able to share this data with other policy makers and leaders and also enable them to use this data to be able to ensure that their processes are equitable and inclusive too.
So in relation to that, then, how do you see the collection of diversity data helping the sector in the long run? To improve the profession and really think about how we can support our ambitions as a profession around equality, diversity, and inclusion. So if I come to you, Andrea.
Andrea
Yes. So I think, you know, being able to gather the data will help with some of those sort of trends and being able to evidence things, you know, and we know that the work that we do is not always about numbers and number crunching, but it does assist.
It does assist as well as the anecdotal information that we have. There are times when we, we need more than what we think. We need to have some evidence for that. So when you talked about the, you know the overrepresentation, within practice element, we know that certainly within other elements of the, of the workforce or social work practice there's over representation in other places as well.
And I would just want to encourage people to provide that data and not see necessarily as a negative. Because if we're going to develop and grow and meet needs or challenge, we need some evidence to say why we're challenging something and without. It's difficult to do that. And I know when I've spoken to some black and ethnic minority colleagues about, you know, updating the data, you know, some said, well, I hadn't really thought about it, didn't really think it was important, you know, everybody's in a bit of a hurry these days.
So I think it's really good that Social Work England have taken the time to really try and promote that and hopefully through things like this podcast, we can get people to understand what the benefits.
Ahmina
Absolutely. Thanks Andrea. And I think we are really trying to think about different ways that we can communicate that message that both you and Emina have talked about. And again, speaking to your point earlier that people are, and social workers in particular are really busy, especially when on the front lines.
So trying to find different ways to get the message out feels really important. So you're absolutely right. We hope that this is another means of getting the message out and getting people. To kind of take this call to action, to share their data and really help us improve our processes, but also potentially processes across the sector.
So coming to you on the same question, Emina, how do you see the collection of diversity data helping the sector in the long run?
Emina
Well, I was thinking more about a kind of regulator being well equipped. Meet the needs of social workforce and kind of contribute to becoming stronger, more resilient force as well in a way.
And I think you can only do that if you understand. You know the makeup of who are the social workers in this country? You know, are we meeting the needs of the community appropriately? Also, I was thinking in cases where there's a fitness to practice and looking at that data as well, if there is an insight that a particular group of social workers, it's perhaps disproportionately presented.
I'm hoping that will lead to curiosity as to why that is. What are the kind of wider social issues that are contributing to that in particular past the country. So I think social working can really help for that in terms of thinking what is there, what's happening out there with social workers when it comes to fitness to practice.
And the final bit for me is about the kind of voice of social work profession. And I think us knowing who we are, knowing our identity, being able to give our, you know, have our voice. It will almost contribute us being kind of stronger in, in being able to talk about ourselves as a workforce, as a profession.
Often we are very good as social workers advocating on others' behalf and presenting individuals we work with, but other things we are so good in actually saying this is who we are and we are proud of identity and this is what we do. So I'm hoping, you know, this process and people sharing their identity will help.
Ahmina
Thank you and some really interesting reflections from both of you. I suppose just as a, as an additional question, and I think you've kind of covered this in some of your responses, but I think maybe just to focus in a little bit more, what do you think the implications are if we don't have this data for the profession?
So if I go to you, Andrea.
Andrea
I think that would be really disappointing in as much, I think there's lots more to do around diversity and individual local authorities will be doing some work around their EDI agenda and what they're doing with their workforce and their communities. And I think for Social Work England, not to have that in terms of, you know, the hundred thousand or so social workers that are across England would not give us the opportunity to be able to really progress some of the things we've talked about today. So even if I think about, you know, myself as a black assistant director and how there's a lack of data there now in terms of across the country where there are other assistant directors and which parts of the country they're in. So I think at every level throughout the system, we should have the data that helps us to be able to develop and strengthen the social work profession so that you can offer a good service to children and families, and the data will obviously help us to do that.
Ahmina
Thanks, Andrea. I think I fully support Andrea's view around this really, and I'm thinking about a social work profession, but also about Social Work England as a regulator coming into place back in, was it early 2020 or December 2019, and thinking about that and how much we have achieved already. So I think this is kind of not having this data. We'll miss the opportunity as a profession to grow and develop and ensure that Social Work England, as our regulator knows who we are, understands what we need and that ensures that all the processes in place, so, which there are many, a really fair and inclusive.
That's what we need to focus on. And I think this is a step towards. Thank you and I can really speak to that because obviously, um, as the head of equality, diversity, and inclusion at Social Work England, this data will really support me when I'm reviewing a lot of the processes. Um, and really thinking about how we ensure that we are, um, equitable and inclusive in everything that we do.
And I think really being able to work and report from a strong data set will really assist that as Andrea has already touched upon. So it's been really interesting to hear your reflections on this. So I'm gonna bring this to a close with what's the most important thing you'd like people listening to take away from this discussion?
So if I start with you, Emina.
Emina
Yeah, so I think what I'd like to say, I think thinking about the message to give to our peers, our social workers is, you know, please think about the value of sharing your personal characteristics with Social Work England. And I think by doing this, we are making ourselves more visible as a profession, and we are saying that we are really proud of who we.
But I reflect back on my career in social work. I think the demographic of social work profession has really changed immensely over the last 20 years. When I initially trained in 99, finish my training in Bristol University, it was a very different group of students to, I go yearly and do, social work guest lecturing at King University in London.
And I look at demographic there. And, whether it's an age of social workers, whether it is the ethnic identity, disabilities etc. And I see the real wide range of people who are coming into social work. And I think we need to celebrate that. We need to use that. It's a really rich tapestry to work from.
So by enabling social work to know that, I think we'll just help further in developing the profession. So just remember those things that, you know, we are very good. And just finally, you know, just thinking that yes, you know, our needs as social workers need to be met by the regulator as well in a way.
And if there is a knowledge and understanding of who we are, I think that will help in ensuring that, does everything they can do to ensure that it, everything is fair and inclusive. So I think that's my kind of final thoughts.
Ahmina
Thank you, Andrea. Your final reflection.
Andrea
Yeah. So my, my final thoughts really, and my plea would be for social workers to, you know, put their information about their areas of diversity.
And like Emina says, for the regulator, our regulator to be able to assist and look at some of those issues, whether it's you know, anti-racist practice within work, how are they going to do that if they don't have the details around the makeup of the people that are the social workers across England?
So I would say it was very important to do that. But I also recognise that there'll be some reluctance about that and would encourage people to say, you know, to have the view that if we want there to be change, you know, across the system, in the areas that people are concerned about around diversity, then we have to start with having some data to evidence some of the concerns that people have.
Ahmina
Thank you. So thank you both for joining me today and sharing your reflections. And I'm gonna take your call to action, Andrea, and run with that. And I'll say it again that I think social work is an incredibly unique profession and it's really well placed to lead the way driving forward, equality, diversity, and inclusion.
And by providing this data, all social workers are really helping us to ensure the fairness of our process for social workers and supporting us to build a better picture of the profession and more broadly, also enabling other policy makers and leaders to make better informed decisions about the sector.
Thanks again to Emina and Andrea for joining me today. If you enjoyed the discussion and would like to continue the conversation with us, you can follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn using the hashtag #ThisisSocialWorkPod to share your thoughts. You can find out more about the collection of diversity data on our website.
Thank you for listening.
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In the first of our one-off episodes, our head of equality, diversity and inclusion, Ahmina Akhtar is joined by Duc Tran, co-chair of the Equality Diversity and Inclusion Advisory Group for the British Association of Social Workers and Transformation Programme Manager at Brent Council. Together with Catherine Witt, regional engagement lead for the northeast and the Humber at Social Work England, they share what the collection of diversity data means to their organisations and outline its importance for the social work sector.
Transcript
Ahmina
Hi, I'm Ahmina Akhtar, head of Equality, Diversity and Inclusion at Social Work England. Welcome to this is Social Work, a podcast from the specialist regulator for social workers, Social Work England. Equality, diversity and inclusion are central to our work as an effective regulator and employer. They are inherent in our values, which are to be:
Independent, transparent, ambitious, collaborative, to act with integrity. As part of our equality, diversity, and inclusion action plan, we made a commitment to better understand the social work profession. We're doing this by actively seeking diversity data from social workers on our register, to continue to ensure our processes are fair and to set a benchmark for further insight to support this work on following a successful first podcast season.
These special podcast episodes will focus on diversity data collection. In this episode, I'm joined by Duc Tran, co-chair of the Equality, Diversity and Inclusion Advisory Group at BASW, British Association of Social Workers and Transformation Program Manager at Brent Council. I'm also joined by my colleague Catherine Witt, regional engagement lead for the northeast and Humber at Social Work England.
They share what collection of diversity data means to their organisations and outline its importance for the social work sector. We hope you enjoy.
So, hello Duc and Catherine. It's great to welcome you to have a discussion with me today, about the collection of diversity data as part of our renewal process and really thinking about how important it is. So, before we go any further, can I ask you to introduce yourselves? So, I'll start with you, Catherine.
Catherine
Hi, yes, I'm Catherine Witt and I am the regional engagement lead for Social Work England in the northeast of England and also the Humber. I'm a social worker. I've been a social worker for 30 years and I've got a real interest inequality and diversity and have been a champion in Social Work England.
So it's really nice to be part of this podcast.
Ahmina
Thank you Catherine. And Duc?
Duc
Hi, I'm thanks for inviting me. I'm the co-chair of the EDI Advisory Group for the British Association of Social Workers, and I've been a social worker for over 20 years. So equality and diversity and inclusion are part of my passion and interest.
Ahmina
Thank you. So I'm really pleased to have you here today. And,we've talked about, the importance of diversity data together in the past, in various conversations. And we all know that for most of us, providing information about our characteristics has become common place. We often get asked for this data as part of applying for a job or a course or when we register with a new service.
Often I still hear questions about why we need this information, why it's really important, why it's necessary, what we are going to do with it, and does it actually really make a difference. So it feels really key for us to explore that today. And for Social Work England, collecting this data forms part of our commitment to enhance fairness, equality, diversity, and inclusion across the profession.
So today I wanna start with asking you why you think it's important for social workers to share this data. So I'll start with you, Catherine.
Catherine
Yeah, I think it is really important that we get this data. We want to be able to report and analyse from a really good solid evidence space. And to do that obviously we need the information.
It's going to really help us build a much more accurate and detailed picture of the social work profession and really sort of ensuring fairness in our processes and better understanding the impact of our policies, you know, such as the annual review of CPD, etc. So it's really important that we get this information just to provide that solid evidence base.
Ahmina
Thank you Catherine. And Duc?
Duc
Yeah, pretty much on what Catherine was saying. I think it does offer us an opportunity to get a better understanding of the workforce, especially around the protected characteristics. This information can also help us to better understand our diversity and supporting future research and service planning.
And finally, I would say that it's an opportunity to, for us to personally reflect on our identities, and our place in a very diverse workplace. So, you know, it's a special opportunity I think to identify who we are clearly and to think about the other aspects of our identity and how that relates to other people as well.
Ahmina
Thank you, Duc. And in your role in the advisory group chair at BASW, I know we've had some conversations about the importance of this data and actually it's something that the sector is really asking for. And actually, we put a collective call to action from BASW, from the unions, and from the directors of both children's and adult services, really showing their support for collecting this data.
And again, for the reasons that you highlight that it's useful for us to be able to improve the fairness of our processes, but actually it also means that other organizations and services are able to use that data to really ensure that their processes are fair and equitable as well. So thank you both.
And over the past year, we've been asking social workers to record their diversity data, to help us build a clear understanding of the makeup of the register. As you both highlighted we really wanted to boost our response rate, and we've started to include these questions in our renewal process because that's where we get the greatest engagement.
So I'd just like to ask you for your thoughts on including these questions as part of our renewal process. So I'll come to you first this time Duc.
Duc
Yeah, I think it would be helpful really, especially if this information has not been thought about or people have not had a chance to think about it before.
However, I do think that it's really important that the process, and the renewal questions are clear and supportive, and you know, that it doesn't expose, a lot of concerns and unnecessary distress as well. For instance, certain learning disabilities and mental health conditions have been hidden in the past because of the stigma associated with it.
And I do feel that it's an opportunity here for people just to think about where they stand with these aspects of their identity. You know, and if they have any concerns, perhaps this is an opportunity in itself to start talking about it because it helps, doesn't it, to destigmatize, you know, the, uh, these kinds of, you know, issues in, in the workforce.
Ahmina
Thanks, Duc. Really helpful. And I think it's always been challenging when we think about the ways in which we ask these questions. There's been quite a lot of thought. There are differences in the way that different organisations ask these questions. We do really like to regularly review, think about best practice.
We're currently having conversations with other regulators and thinking about what we can learn from each other and the different approaches. We are really keen to learn from the sector and things that they feel are helpful in asking these questions. And we want to increase some engagement around it.
So Catherine will be able to talk a little bit more about the conversations that she and the other regional engagement leads have around some of this in the workshops that they run. So that's a nice segway to you, Catherine.
Catherine
Yeah, and I think just having said as part of the renewal process, and I think that is really important, because it is about professional responsibility and, you know, having regard to that and being really aware of what we are collecting and why we're collecting it.
So I think, you know, it feels for me as a social worker, as very much part of my social work identity to embrace equality and diversity and to make sure that we've the right information from the right people at the right time. And I think having spoken to people, you know, in the field, social workers, there is a real, I'm gonna say excitement, but a real sort of enthusiasm to get the right information so that we can have that data and that we can start evidencing some of the areas where there might be discrimination.
Social workers might be impacted by inequality, you know, for example, in fitness to practice so that we can have that information to hand. So yes, I do think that there is a general enthusiasm in, but from social workers to be part of this and to provide that information.
Ahmina
Thanks, Catherine.
And I think since we have included this information in our renewal process, we can gradually see the response is increasing, which is really promising. And to link to that enthusiasm, I suppose. I know that there are also some murmurs and some concerns around sharing this data.
Why do you think social workers may be reluctant to share their data? So I'll come back to you on that one, Catherine.
Catherine
Yeah, I mean, I think we get asked for a lot of information and we always want to sort of understand where that information is going. But I suppose we really want to reassure social workers that this information will be used sensitively and appropriately, and it won't affect their application to join the register or it won't impact on any renewal process.
And it certainly won't be considered within any fitness to practice process or complaints or proceedings. I mean, we have got very strict regulations around data and it will be stored within an online account, and it can be shared or changed at any point. And there's lots of information on our website that can provide some reassurance.
But we know from speaking to people with lived experience and to social workers, personal information is one of the most important things, and we need to treat it with high regard, with great sensitivity, and it needs to be used for the right purposes.
Ahmina
Thanks Catherine. A lot of nodding from, from Duc there. Obviously listeners, you can't see that, but I'm hoping that enthusiasm will come across over to you, Duc.
Duc
Definitely. I absolutely agree with what Catherine says. I think it's really important that social workers need to know clearly that this information will be used sensitively in the correct way and that by disclosing their personal information, it's not going to penalise them in terms of their practice.
I think that's really key. Getting back to the question really, why are they reluctant to share information? I think some of the information can really be sensitive, can really be distressing because of prior treatment or previous treatment when people did disclose their information.
Not necessarily in the workforce or workplace, but it could be, you know, in other parts of their life as well. So that's why there is a sense of, there can be a sense of distress and anxiety around the disclosure of such information.
Ahmina
Thanks Duc. And moving on to thinking about the long-term benefits of having this diversity data.
As a professional regulator, having information about those we regulate is crucial. And collecting this information along with the other data that we collect provides us with a fuller picture to help identify any issues and to address them. Also, by giving us an understanding of where social workers might face inequality or discrimination.
And also, by publishing this information anonymously, we'll also really hope that the insight that we share will support other policy makers and leaders to think about their own processes and think about how they can ensure that they are equitable and inclusive too. So, thinking about the long-term benefits then how do you see the collection of diversity data helping the sector in the long run?
So if I come to you first Catherine this time.
Catherine
I mean, good data and robust data has to be a good thing in the long term, that's what we base lots of decisions on. We can spot anecdotal things and provide evidence to support that we are ambitious as an organisation and we are fearless and we want to really tackle discrimination, or any inequalities that we in Social Work England are responsible for in terms of processes and policies, but also in the wider profession. And it's some of those basic demographics, so that we know what our social work register, that we know who's there, what they are and who they are and that we can make appropriate decisions.
And invest in the profession as a result.
Ahmina
Thanks, Catherine. And I think, talking about our wider commitment, I think we've really committed to undertaking a range of research and really tried to be evidence based in everything that we do. So, on the website, there are quite a few pieces of research that you're able to access some related to equality, diversity, and inclusion and, and others broader than that as well.
But have some objectives included within that. And I think we are also a part of the anti-racism steering group and actually a lack of data has really acted as a barrier in progressing some of that work as well. So we have carried out an additional survey to support that work and used that research to start to formulate the beginning of a sector wide action.
But actually having more of this data would've actively supported that. And I think that really speaks to what you said earlier in one of your responses, Duc, about the importance of this data in research. So I will, I will hand over to you on that note.
Duc
Definitely, this can only help the sector as a whole, really.
And in fact, within the British Association of Social Workers, as the co-chair of EDI Advisory Group, I've always been advocating for improving data collection and data quality around diversity of the association members, and more generally in the profession that can only help us.
For instance, we know from the COVID pandemic, which we're still recovering from, the disproportionate impact, you know, the members from the black and ethnic minority cohort has and also the disproportionate representation in disciplinary and grievance processes with Social Work England.
And we are hearing that through our social work union,, so that this as well, so clearly, you know, this type of information is really important to collect, but over the long run, I think it's important to have that long term view. And by collecting this information and hopefully, you know, with the years to come, we would get a better understanding of how we fare and how we have improved in, not in terms of collection of the data, but in fact in terms of how we treat ourselves, whether, you know, this disproportionate representation. Have we filled the gaps? Have we developed those services that can actually help improve the outcomes for, for our social work members who are most vulnerable?
Ahmina
Thanks Duc. Aand yes, we, anecdotally we are aware of the disproportionate number of referrals that we receive for social workers from black and ethnic minority backgrounds and men.
And that is something that we absolutely want to explore further, but it is difficult to be able to pursue that without this status or absolutely, yes one of the drivers behind this is wanting to collect this data and link to that question then, what are the implications of not having the data?
What do you think we might lack more generally as profession if we aren't able to collect this data? So I'll come to you, Catherine.
Catherine
I think we lack knowledge and insight if we don't have it. We are working with anecdotal information, people's thoughts about things and not based on evidence. We can't have serious conversations at a strategic level or even on an individual and personal level if we don't know the full facts, and the makeup of our register is one of the basic things that we need to know to have those sensible and insightful conversations. And if we want to improve as an organisation, which is absolutely what we want to do, and to reflect the full diversity of our workforce, then we need to have this information. It can only be a positive thing and I think it will lead to much better decisions and much more considered development, of Social Work England. Thanks Catherine, Duc?
Duc
Yes I think certainly there is a place for qualitative data and lived experience and we do hear that, but I think the qualitative of information can further enhance definitely with data with the numbers supporting it.
Particularly if we were to consider, you know, making an impact at a service level or a larger impact. And that's what we should be aiming to achieve. So the personal information that people do disclose actually can have a collective impact as well. And I think that's where having that raw numbers, those raw numbers would really help.
Ahmina
Absolutely. And I think it is about that fuller picture, isn't it? So we really value having that qualitative information and that's why we've invested so much in our regional engagement leads and really thinking about having those one-to-one conversations, thinking more about the importance of exploring what's happening and being able to capture more of that nuance through those conversations and engagements.
But equally, that on its own doesn't offer a rich enough picture. And I think you're absolutely right that having the data alongside some of that and the conversations that I have with colleagues like yourself and organisations like BASW more broadly really support, our understanding and insight around some of this.
So to bring us to a close then, what is the most important thing you'd like people listening to take away from this discussion? So, I'll come to you first this time, Duc.
Duc
I think in as much as I do believe that, you know, we need to disclose as much as we can, the reality is that it does come down to the individual person and their confidence as well, you know, where they're at in terms of disclosing their identity and how they are.
Not everyone is the same. And I think with that in mind, I would say that it is personal information and I would encourage people to take an opportunity to reflect critically about what they're sharing. And if there were any concerns whatsoever, then, you know, maybe perhaps this would be an opportunity to talk about it with their line managers, with their peers.
Because it's in that process that you start to discover and uncover more about okay, what are those concerns and whether that's gonna have any impact at all. And so what I would say therefore is that this is an opportunity for us to reflect about ourselves, and our place in quite a diverse workplace.
So that's, that's my message.
Ahmina
Thanks Duc. And I think again, I think a good suggestion in terms of reflecting with peers and line managers, but I will also add to that, that the regional engagement leads obviously each have an area and are very clear on the processes around data collection and our approach to quality, diversity, and inclusion.
So are also really happy to talk about any concerns that people might have as well. And at that point I'm gonna hand over to you, Catherine, for your closing thoughts.
Catherine
Yeah. My closing thoughts. This is about improving what we do in Social Work England, and for me it really reflects what social work is, which is about equality, diversity, and inclusion.
And it is a real opportunity to demonstrate our values in Social Work England, to be fearless, independent, transparent, ambitious, collaborative, and act with integrity. And that's really important to me as a social worker, but it's really important to Social Work England. So that's what I'd like people to take away.
And also just very finally is that we will treat this informatio with respect and regard, and with sensitivity and just to reassure people, you know, that it will be in safe hands and it will be used for improvement and doing things better.
Ahmina
Thanks, Catherine. So social work is a unique profession, because it has a profound impact on those who encounter it.
And I see a huge amount of passion and motivation to make the profession better, I think every day. And prior to this role, I was a regional engagement lead and had the pleasure of talking to lots of social workers and seeing that passion in practice all of the time. And I still do that in a different capacity within this role.
And I think one of the things that I'm really clear on is so many social workers really want the profession to be the best that it can be. And I really think that by providing your diversity data you'll help us to ensure the fairness of our processes for social workers and supporters to build a better picture of the profession.
And again, as I said earlier, I think there's also something really important about the fact that there's a call to the sector from the sector. And there's something about really highlighting the fact that this is gonna be beneficial for us as an organisation, but for so many organisations as well, because it will support their leaders and decision makers to think about their processes fairness and ability of their processes as well. So, my final thought then is please, please log into your account today and consider sharing your data. Appreciate as, as Duc said, and we've acknowledged that there is a sensitivity around the data, but if you could just consider where you do feel comfortable sharing that, then we'd really value it.
Thank you to Catherine and Duc, for joining me today and talking about the importance of data.
Thanks again to Duc and Catherine for joining me today. If you enjoyed the discussion and would like to continue the conversation with us, you can follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn using the hashtag #ThisisSocialWorkPod to share your thoughts. You can find out more about the collection of diversity data on our website.
Join us for our next episode where I'll be talking to social workers AM and Andrea to get their personal perspectives on the topic of diversity data. See you soon.
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Episodes manquant?
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In this episode, regional engagement lead Philippa is joined by principal social worker and former chief social worker for adults, Fran Leddra and Julie Stevens, principal social worker for adults, as they discuss professional standard 6.
Philippa, Fran and Julie share their knowledge of responding to concerns raised by those who may be accessing care and support services, and the ways in which social workers and the people involved can be best supported to resolve issues at a local level.
Join the conversation using #ThisIsSocialWorkPod on our website and follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn.
Transcript
Philippa
Welcome to This Is Social Work. I’m Philippa, Social Work England's regional engagement lead for the South West of England in this series we're focusing on the professional standards, the 6 standards that social workers must know, understand and be able to do as part of their role. The professional standards are specialist to the social work profession and apply to social workers in all roles and settings across England.
In this episode we're focusing on standard 6, ‘promote ethical practice and report concerns’. We're joined by principal social worker and chief social worker for adults Fran Leddra and Julie Stevens, principal social worker for adults, as they discuss the professional standards and their practice as a social worker. We also discuss their knowledge of responding to concerns raised by those who may be accessing care and support services, and the ways in which social workers and those we work with can be best supported to resolve issues at a local level.
We hope you enjoy this episode.
Hi, welcome everybody. I’m really pleased to join you today to talk about professional standard 6 and I’m joined by a couple of people that are going to introduce themselves, so welcome Fran and welcome Julie. Fran, do you want to introduce yourself first.
Fran
Hi I’m Fran Leddra, I’m the chief social worker at the department of health and social care.
Philippa
Thanks Fran, thanks for being with us today, and Julie?
Julie
Hello, my name's Julie Stevens, I work for Nottingham City council. I’m the team manager for our quality assurance and workforce development team and I’m also the principal social worker for adults.
Philippa
Fabulous, thank you. So, we're here to talk today about professional standard 6 which is ‘promote ethical practice and report concerns’. At Social Work England we've seen a significant increase in fitness to practise referrals and the number we've received is higher than initially projected. Most of our referrals, I think over 70%, come from members of the public and by members of the public we mean people who've had a social worker themselves or have a family member who've had contact with a social worker. Most of the concerns seem to relate to children and family social workers and we're currently closing around 40% of cases at triage, so this would suggest to us that the concerns are either not meeting our criteria or could be addressed locally, either through employers complaints procedures or staff support or development.
The regional engagement team of which I’m part of, work alongside the fitness to practise team in a number of ways and we're currently running some fitness to practise workshops for employers which look at when and what to refer. We quality assure and review fitness to practise decisions and more recently, we've been supporting the triage team acting as professional advisors to consider the concerns raised with us. Much of what we see seems to relate to poor practice and in particular poor communication.
I just wondered whether you know, in light of kind of the increase in referrals that we're having, do you have any thoughts about why we might be receiving a higher number of referrals than the previously kind of, anticipated? What are your thoughts Fran?
Fran
Thank you. I mean that, but that's in some ways not surprising given I suppose the very difficult year that we've had and I suppose we can't really discuss this without the context of the last year and us being in a pandemic but of course you know, it's, it's concerning. In some ways you want the public, don't you, to be able to reach out to Social Work England and to be able to say when they think things aren't right. In other ways you're kind, the fact that 40% of those were actually triaged at that point as not being appropriate for, to take forward in Social Work England tends to indicate that there's something else possible in this last year, or we need to look at trends as we go forward, something else has been taking place and possibly that is around local complaints procedures and local responsiveness possibly during the pandemic.
I mean, we know from a BBC report last year that 60% of disabled people said that they felt that their, their care and support had been reduced and that they weren't getting what they need, care centres were closed, normal community touch points were closed, social workers were still out there on the frontline doing visits but some had some, things that had to go online and just, we just know generally that that was an incredibly tough and you know, unprecedented time, not just for the workforce but for people who have, receiving care and support to have to step up and do so much more for their families and their loved ones during that period of time, so it would be really interesting to compare the figures again over the next coming couple of years to see whether that isn't an anomaly or whether or not that is something which you know, is a continued trend. In which case I think you know, we really need to ask ourselves the questions that are local complaint systems responsive enough to, to, when people have concerns and of course Philippa, 60% of those presumably did, have gone forward which again would be really good to see on what kind of grounds and what kind of, some of the issues are, is there any kind of common themes as to what people are reporting on you know, it's worth just thinking what ethical practice is you know it's, it's about that respect, that inherent kind of dignity and worth of a person that the social worker brings to their, to their to their work and, and social workers are there to treat every person in a caring and respected respectful fashion, mindful of their individual cultures, their ethnic diversity, and of course we're there also to promote people's self-determination so if when that falls short and people feel the need to, to raise a concern then absolutely, that must be taken seriously and we have to learn from that.
Philippa
Yeah I think ,I think you raised really good points both of you. I think there's still lots of things that we don't know and, and that's some of the work that we're doing to try and understand those trends and I think you know, we're only in our first 18 months so it'd be interesting to see, like you said Fran, what are those projected trends and what those trends will be over the next coming year and how we align.
Obviously it's really difficult to know, we're in a pandemic, we're not in normal circumstances. I think you raise a really good point about kind of, ethical practice and I think it's interesting that we have a higher proportion of referrals that relate to children and families social workers. You both work in adults, my background is children and families so you know, I was in statutory children and families work for over 20 years before I moved to Social Work England and I think to some extent it perhaps isn't surprising that that's sort of, a sort of disproportionately between adults and children and families because of the work that we do and some of the, how that lends itself but I think there is something about us understanding about why aren't we getting things right, and I think really thinking about that ethical practice and how we can try and work at resolving things locally and so people don't feel that they then need to come to the regulator to raise concerns, and the concerns that they do raise with us are the most serious and the right concerns.
I think what we're seeing a lot, and I think I said that in my, my opening kind of commentary, is that in some of the work that we're seeing at fitness to practise, some of it's more about poor practice and fitness to practise I mean, we know from some initial work we've been doing that we've been seeing about, that one of the themes that comes out is communication and around 25% of the referrals that we get are referring to communication. I mean surely that's something we can do better and improve on, that's not a difficult thing to improve on, so there's definitely some room there, thinking about local resolution.
I mean standard 6.3 talks about informing people of the right to complain and provide them with the support to do it and record and act on concerns raised to me, so it's about really sort of, you know really ensuring about, people are aware of those rights and advocating for those rights and not being you know, sort of worried about people making a complaint. What has been your experience of responding to concerns raised by those who may be accessing care and support services. Fran?
Fran
So the most important thing when people are raising any kind of, any kind of concern is that people feel that they're being listened to and that they are getting a really considered and thorough response. I think it's nothing worse than somebody feeling they, you know, they, they get a two-liner you know, or, in a response or that you know, the various different bits of their complaint haven't been broken down and looked at because that leads to people coming back again and eventually might even need to go into the ombudsman and that you know, it's hugely intensive resource, intensive for everybody and I’m sure for an individual they don't want to complain. I mean, when we, we've been in a really privileged position in the last year I’ve been able to speak to a lot of people with lived experience and you know, people don't want to complain, they want to get on with their lives and have a really good service and you know, be able to get the care and support they need when, when they need it they don't, but they find it exhausting to have to go through long-winded complaints procedures or any other kind of investigation procedure, so I think we have to appreciate that when people get to the point where they put pen to paper, you know, the vast majority of them will be people that have probably tried absolutely everything else first and have got to that end of their tether and, and have written that down so we absolutely must be respectful of that, we have to listen I think we have to be transparent, I think as much as possible we have to be open if we've made mistakes and we have to apologise if we've done so, I think.
Julie
I completely agree with all of that Fran and I think, I think for me there's something about us trying really, really hard like you say, to be very open and transparent with people from the very beginning and trying to deal with any kind of sense that somebody's dissatisfied with what's happening or is unhappy trying to deal with that at the earliest possible opportunity really, so that, so you prevent the person getting to the point where they feel that they've got to complain and because, like you say you know, once the person's reached that point what often that, that you know, my experience has been that's quite traumatising for the individual you know, because that means like you say they've tried everything else to get there, to get their voice heard, to get their, their concerns heard and haven't had a satisfactory outcome and, and by that point that's quite often gone on for quite a long time for that person as well so I think it's about being very, very clear with people from the beginning about what the outcome is that they're looking to achieve and about being very honest about, as you say, where, where we've got things wrong, letting them reflect with us on where we've got things wrong but also what did work for them and what they were happy about and, but then also I think as you say, it's learning the lessons from that so that the person goes away feeling assured because you know, quite often when you've got to the point where somebody's had to go through, as you say, putting pen to paper and going through a formal complaint and then sometimes going to the ombudsman, the whole issue then is not just about how you resolve that complaint but it's how you build trust with that person if that person is continuing to receive services, that's really difficult and really challenging then so I think you know, my constant view is to try and address things as early as we possibly can do and to prevent really at getting to that point but then like you say, then we've really got to take notice of what that individual's experience has been.
Philippa
Thank you both of you. I think that, I think that's really important isn't it, about what can we do earlier on and that listening you know, the fact that you know, when I was a manager you know, obviously no one likes to have a complaint about their practice or their social worker that you're managing’s practice. You know, it can be quite difficult to hear some of that kind of, challenge or criticism but I think there's always for me, often lessons to be learned and that point of reflection and could we have done things differently, do you know what I mean, and often I think we could have, do you know what I mean, and some, you know, sometimes there was a sense that we perhaps didn't do it as well as we should have, so there were lessons to be learned.
I mean standard 6.4 talks about taking appropriate action when a professional's practice may be impaired so kind of, thinking very much perhaps from kind of, an employer's position, how in your view can we best support social workers and those we work with to resolve issues at a local level?
Fran
I think making clear that real, strengthening the supervisor's involvement regarding social work so you know, there is something for me about that again, that trusting relationship whereby if somebody has got you know, has got something that they need to share but they feel confident and safe enough to share that earlier on rather than later, I mean it's very clear when you go on and renew your registration, there is no doubt that you have to sign something that declares that you've got nothing that's you know, that there isn't anything there that has changed since last time, that you haven't got any new criminal convictions or you haven't got anything that you think that you should declare, so it's very clear in terms of your own personal responsibility but if there are things that you are at all unsure about throughout the year journey leading up to that re-registration, and good supervision and support from your employer is really, really important so you can talk about that
And vice versa as well, it's very important also that the social worker is able to reflect back also on where it falls short, where they think things as standards are falling short too so it's a two-way kind of conversation, but in terms of being very clear and open and transparent and honest about anything you feel has changed significantly enough that it might affect your registration I think, you know, that is a personal responsibility and one if given the right support it's quite clear that we should be declaring those issues.
Julie
I agree with everything that you've just spoken about there and Fran I think, I think supervision is really important. I think making sure that you continuously keep that culture of reflective discussion and learning going on with it, within teams and for individuals and I think, I certainly think that that's been a challenge for people in the last year and, and that has been challenged by the fact that you know, most people have been working from home and it's much more difficult to have some of those conversations that you would have had when you were sat next to somebody in, in a you know, in an office environment and things but I think that, that that's really important that you have that reflective practice and I think you know, as for social workers it's that encouragement that, about not being punitive towards people but that idea that you're constantly learning, you're constantly reflecting and you can always think about even when things have gone really well, you can always think about how things would be better and I think as well the thing, one of the things that I was thinking about with that is it's about ensuring as well that you have that clarity for the people that we're working with around what you can achieve as an outcome for that individual, so you know, talking to that person about what it is that they want when they're first having contact with adult social care but then like we've talked about, and I think it's been mentioned several times now, that transparency and honesty, about what can be achieved what, what the potential issues and difficulties might be for achieving what that individual wants so you already start up that conversation from the beginning really of, of acting with integrity and honesty with the individual and, and I think you're completely right about the fact that you know, that there is no way that people cannot understand their responsibilities and for reporting if there's any concerns about their practice because it is absolutely clear and, and I think that you know, that that's something again as well which supervisors and team managers are also very, very clear about but yeah, I, for me it's about making sure that we, we have that culture of open learning with people all the time and reflection because nobody gets it right all of the time, there isn't a social worker out there who's you know, gets absolutely everything right, perfect every single time you know, there's so many different factors isn't there, that you, that happen when we're working with people that you need to constantly always be mindful of.
Fran
And just to add really, that standard 6 and 6.7 isn't just looking at where you know, where some responsibility is something that's happened criminally throughout the year or whatever, this is very much about physical and mental health issues as well and that includes those caused by stress of course and what we know is, is that social workers have had an absolutely awful stressful year and many will be coming out the pandemic needing a lot of support, so making sure that that support is available so that people don't get to the breaking point, where in any way this impairs their practice is, is absolutely essential.
Philippa
I think that that's really important but sort of, I think the, the emphasis on good supervision can't be underestimated here can it? Good supervision would be where between you and the manager, there would be those conversations about your practice. It should be that conversation where if there's any kind of concern about your practice, it's absolutely being discussed at supervision so nothing should come as a surprise to a social worker in some respects and it's about that relationship isn't it, and also you know, if we're, if we're able to kind of uphold the, the professional standards that I think that we all sign up to as registered social workers, if we're adhering to those, in many ways you're practising in the way that you should be and that need for someone to complain about your practice should be lessened to some extent and, and about how we try and reduce the kind of, risk of things being escalated to the regulator is absolutely about making sure that any concerns around practice are dealt with in a really timely way at that kind of supervisor level.
Do you, as both of you and your roles as principal social workers and in particular Fran maybe in that having that fortuitous oversight in your chief social worker role, how do you see that being played out you know, in practice really. Do you see that things are being picked up and dealt with?
Fran
We've heard of some really good local initiatives and also of course there's a lot of national support as well. If you go on the DHSC website you can find a huge amount of support, you can reach out if you're suffering from stress or you know, people are talking about that kind of secondary trauma that some social workers may, may well be experiencing, some local authorities are putting on their own sessions for staff, specifically most local authorities will have things in place for, for people like employer assistance programs.
We've got to also be very mindful of that lots of social workers work independently, they work in other sectors you know, it's a bit about them reaching out should they need it so that, so for those independent social workers that are possibly struggling at any point and we just say you know, do reach out, reach out either to your professional register or, or maybe to somebody locally that you know or to a peer to sort of say that you're struggling a bit because there is plenty of help and support out there if you need it at the moment, and I think there's been some excellent practice across the country in terms of trying to support social workers going forward and it's something that we are talking about at the chief social work office, about how we might do something more nationally about this and we certainly had discussions with BASW about that too.
Philippa
Yeah, what about you Julie, from a local authority perspective?
Julie
Obviously just talking about my local authority, our management teams and our senior management team have been mindful from the beginning of lockdown of the additional support that people require as a result of the impact of the restrictions because of COVID lockdowns, but also the impact of the changing way of having to work with people and so there's been a lot of support on offer for that and I think we're also very mindful, as Fran mentioned, about what, what the impact is going to be for people as we, as we open up to business as usual and the, the sort of like, the potential trauma that people have experienced and I think, you know, that there's a big body of thought that actually it's as people come out of that situation and get that that we're going to see more and more of that trauma and you know, that those difficulties and issues that people have experienced, and I think it is, it's really important as you were talking about, for those people that aren't employed by a local authority, about ensuring from day one where they can get their support from as well and, but certainly within the local authority there's been a lot of thought given to that and I think you know, we go back again to you know, the importance of that supervisory relationship within our local authority, that's something that we've been talking about a lot more but then we've also been looking at other ways so that people can get support as well.
Philippa
Thanks Julie, thanks Fran.
It's really important isn't it, that we know the sector has experienced a really challenging time not only in people's professional lives but also personally you know, they've been working from home, some have had caring responsibilities you know, children being not at school, work you know, home teaching, lots of other kind of challenges that have come, have been there for the sector.
I know that some people may have anxiety talking about how that's affected them and worry that that may you know, does that have a fitness to practise sort of, kind of impact for them and I think you know, Social Work England are really clear that in terms of you know, any health concerns, as it's about accessing support and that health being managed, so it's really important therefore that you know, wherever you're working, however you're practising, whether it's in the statutory sector, independently or the third sector, or in academia, that you are able to have that insight and recognise that you may be struggling at that time, and you can access that support and that you've got strategies in place to support you and that then doesn't lend itself to being a fitness to practise concern. The concerns are when that support is, is not forthcoming or you're not talking about needing that support and your situation may kind of escalate or deteriorate, and we wouldn't want anyone to feel that they're in that position.
And moving on to sort of, standard 6.6 which kind of feeds into some of what you've already been saying Fran, is about declaring to the appropriate authority and Social Work England anything that might affect my ability to do my job competently or may affect my fitness to practise or if I’m subject to criminal proceedings or a regulatory finding is made against me anywhere in the world. I mean, we've, you've already covered it really a little bit Fran but you know, as social workers we must make safe and effective practice declarations when we apply to the register and we all restore our registration or renew our registration and as registered social workers, we're expected to meet and uphold the professional standards and obviously we must notify the regulator of anything that may affect our ability to practice safe and effectively. How do you ensure you're meeting the professional standards in your practice as social workers?
Julie
I think one of the things that's really useful is keeping up with your CPD recording and, because I think if you're keeping up with that you're reflecting on the work that you're doing and I think it's a constant reminder then about what the standards are so I think that that's, that's one way of doing that so I think you know, I think some of us are a bit lastminute.com aren't we with stuff but I think trying to kind of, of, give that consistent message about actually if you do it regularly, it, it's a, it's another way of reflecting and it's another way of thinking about those standards all the time.
I think it's important that that within, within authorities as well that we, we have a culture of ethical practice as well so that you're working within that dynamic where you're constantly thinking about ethical dilemmas, practice, decision making and things so I think you know, we've, we've talked about it a lot already because you know, it's a, it's a circle isn't it, that you're constantly going through and the cycle of, of that supervision, that reflective discussion but I think also having an, a constant kind of open discussion and a learning culture where people don't feel you know, that there's, there's a culture of blame happening to them, so ensuring as managers and as supervisors that that we're making sure that, that people do feel that they can have those open discussions, that there is a safe space to say things and and you know to say them in a way where they're not constantly concerned about you know, how that, how that's going to be received so you know that, that supervision and those sort of like, peer supports as well, so yeah I, but I would say to people that regular CPD recording is a big help because it just constantly refreshes you.
Fran
I would agree with everything that Julie said about the CPD recording. I also think it's not just about what we record in terms of formal CPD, I think it's about our constant reflection and as well as this role I’m still principal social worker and a head of adult social care council and I, you know, I’m still very, I’m very mindful of practice and I’m very mindful so that every now and again, I want to do a bit of practice myself and I do still do some you know, direct social work practice alongside the teams and actually I think really importantly it's a bit about also doing that peer support and, and constantly reflecting off of other people in terms of that kind of, peer challenge sometimes.
I love having students, I always think students always come in and our, our newly qualified social workers as well, they come in so fresh from that learning and so fresh from the standards and, and can really challenge us and start saying ‘why are you doing that like that?’ you know, ‘why are we not doing it the way, the way we've just learned that it should be done?’ because we can fall into bad habits and so I think that whole learning culture within an organisation is really important, and I would say leaders have a really strong part to play in that and making sure, and that principal social workers up and down the country I know excel at this, in making sure that you know, that real kind of discussion, reflection is going on within the local authorities and so that everybody's continuing learning, but just to say that that has again been a huge challenge the last year, there's no doubt about it you know, we are hearing people saying that even their student experiences have been obviously very, very different and our practice educators have been struggling about really stepping up to do the absolutely best that they can in those circumstances. So I always say you know, shout out about what you're really good at but be really honest and take responsibility when you get things, when you get things wrong.
Philippa
Thanks both. Yeah I think I would echo what both of you said in terms of for me you know, the opportunity to reflect you know, I think I’m always learning as a social worker and you know, sort of having that kind of time I think being able to kind of, sort of make time, which I know I’m not you know, I’m a frontline social worker anymore so I appreciate I’ve you know, my time is used differently and people are under huge pressure but actually you know, I wouldn't be the social worker I was if I wasn't reading, if I wasn't having conversations with my peers, if I wasn't sometimes getting things wrong and reflecting and making you know, ensuring that I was doing things better, and I think in terms of sort of ensuring that, I’m kind of adhering to those professional standards, it's checking isn't it and I mean, also getting that feedback I think, hearing and listening to people with lived experience and hearing from them about their experience and ensuring that we're hearing that, listening and responding to it is absolutely the way that we can ensure that we're meeting the professional standards, and I’m really pleased that that's in our, kind of, standard 4 around CPD you know, that it kind of really reiterates that need to hear from people with lived experience because I think ultimately if we don't listen to people, with that, we're never going to improve because having, although having a complaint, and going back to the complaints of it right at the beginning where we started, by hearing from people who, where we may have got things wrong and learning from that and I’m all for more of a kind of, appreciative inquiry approach and I think you raised it Julie, about you know, trying to avoid that blame culture and really looking at kind of, the strength based learning and what you know, what could we do differently, I think that's really positive in, in ensuring that we are then adhering to our professional standards.
I think the past year has been a challenge about ethical practice Fran hasn't it, and I know it's bought in you know, the Department of Health and Social Care and principal social workers you know, put forward the kind of ethical framework and some guidance for us as practitioners, and I think you know, there were some times you know, especially in those very early days of the pandemic, when people were feeling quite anxious about their practice you know, we know that people were worried about decisions that were being taken in kind of, you know, very challenging circumstances but I think again it feeds back to that, those conversations you have in supervision or have with your peers, how you document your workings, your defens-, that defensible decision making kind of process isn't it and about really ensuring that you're having those conversations and checking out what you're thinking of doing.
Is there anything any one of you wanted to kind of, add to that or anything else you wanted to say?
Julie
Just picking up on the on the point that Fran made around newly qualified social workers and I think certainly our, our local universities in my area have already been raising that, some of the, the newly qualified social workers that are going to be finishing university and that some of their, no fault of anyone, but because of lockdown and because of the opportunities within their placements and the restricted opportunities, and that people are going to be coming out of university potentially with gaps in, in their kind of, learning and knowledge and I know that other local authorities in my local area as well, I’ve already started kind of thinking about that from the perspective of the ASYE programmes that we that we run, so I think that would be a message for me and for newly qualified social workers you know, certainly raise any concerns that you've got about that as part of your local ASYE programme with your local authority and things as well, and because it's really important that we look at that for people and recognise the challenges that students have experienced in the last 12 months as well.
Philippa
Thanks Julie. Fran, did you have anything you wanted to add?
Fran
I think you're point about the ethical framework is a good one in that that's still there and that's still very much there for, for practitioners to use, to help guide, guide them through and even outside of the pandemic is a good kind of reminder of people who you know, because that's what this standard is all about, it's all about good ethical practice and that does take you through very, you know, methodically the various different elements of that that you need to consider when you're doing work with people, and the only other thing I would just say is that all social workers you know, all registered search workers need to take responsibility for how they, you know, how they practice, how they report up to yourselves and really know these standards, so don't just pay lip service to them, I don't, just when one pops up you know, really wouldn't be great. It's great if you know, we, if I was to ask you as a social worker, ‘what are the professional standards?’ would you be able to give me an idea of what they are, and I think that's a really good test, and not obviously every single little detail, minute detail of each one but just the top lines and it's really important I think, to get to know them and really own them and because, I think, it makes us very proud of our profession and we will create those really high standards that we want for ourselves and for the people that we offer care and support to.
Philippa
Thanks Fran. So just by way of an ending really I just wondered whether we've got any kind of top tips or advice for social workers, so what is the most important thing you'd like people listening to take away from this discussion that we've had today?
Julie
I think the key thing is coming back to one of the things that you, you spoke about at the beginning and was, was, it's around communication you know, that's the key skill that we have isn't it and that that in, in kind of, communicating with people and being open transparent and building those trusting relationships, you know, and communicating with people around what their expectations are and what they, what they want from us and yeah I, I just think that communication is the key thing and, and that's something I think you said earlier about, as a social worker you're constantly learning and I think that is the key thing that we learn about every single day isn't it, if we reflect on our communication with people there's always something where you think ‘oh, well that worked in that situation with that person, but actually I’d like to do that slightly differently thinking about it’ and I think, I think recognising you know, all of those different ways in which you can communicate with people and understanding what it is that that they need to take from, from that communication and their perspective and things, I just think that communication is so important.
You know, the other thing that we've really talked about is, is that reflection and all of those opportunities that we have to reflect. Everyone's so busy but that is just absolutely essential that you're constantly able to reflect on what you're doing.
Fran
Yeah, I agree with that Julie. I think reflection, continual professional development, continued learning in the broader sense, having that confidence but also having that consideration, but when you need help and support you go and get it, and that you are able to be very open and honest and transparent when you need to be. You know, social work isn't an easy job it's a, it can be incredibly difficult and incredibly challenging but it's hugely, can be hugely rewarding and every single day we see social workers up and down the country making a real difference to the lives of people, and really having a huge impact, doing absolutely excellent work and so I think just hang on to the fact that you know, we're very proud of our profession, we really want to give our best and to do that, we really do need to ensure that we continually professional development and we, we remain as registered professionals in the absolute proper sense of the word, in that we understand what those principles are and we understand what those standards are and we make sure, as much as we can, that we can always you know, really adhere to them and, and be able to confidently say that we are very good social workers.
Philippa
What a great point to end on. Thank you so much both of you. Thanks Julie, thanks Fran.
Thanks again to Fran and Julie for joining us and sharing their experiences and understanding of standard 6. we hope you've enjoyed listening and that you've been able to take away something from the variety of topics covered that will help to inform and improve your own practice.
If you enjoyed the discussion and would like to continue the conversation with us, you can follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn using the hashtag #ThisIsSocialWorkPod to share your thoughts. You can also visit our website socialworkengland.org.uk to find out more about the professional standards and the social work profession.
Thanks again and see you soon.
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In this episode, regional engagement leads Matthew and Philippa are joined by social worker and social media advocate Kayleigh Rose Evans as they discuss the social media aspect of professional standard 5.
Kayleigh is a regular social media user with growing audiences on multiple platforms. She shares her experience of social work and digital social spaces, including how she developed her approach as a practising social worker, how she balances her professional and personal social media use, and how social workers can protect themselves online.
Join the conversation using #ThisIsSocialWorkPod on our website and follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn.
Transcript
Matthew
Welcome to This Is Social Work. I’m Matthew Social Work England's regional engagement lead for the North West of England. In this series we're focusing on the professional standards, the 6 standards that social workers must know, understand and be able to do as part of their role.
The professional standards are specialists to the social work profession and apply to social workers in all roles and settings across England.
In this episode we're focused on standard five we discuss social media and how social workers can use it in a way that ensures we act safely respectfully and with professional integrity we're joined by Kayleigh Rose Evans, a social worker and best interests assessor from the North West, who's a bit of a famous face in the world of social media.
Today Kayleigh shares her own experiences of using social media as a social worker, outlines the benefits of its use and gives us an insight into how she meets standard 5. She also reveals some of her top tips when it comes to using social media platforms responsibly, and the line between personal and professional accounts online.
We hope you enjoy the conversation.
Philippa
Welcome Matthew and welcome Kayleigh. So it would be really great Kayleigh if you could introduce yourself and tell us a bit about yourself.
Kayleigh
Okay well firstly, thank you for inviting me on the podcast, I’m really pleased to be asked. I’m Kayleigh, a social worker in the North West of England and so I studied social work at BA level, but I carried on to study after qualifying because I wanted to carry on to build up things like best interests assessments, and I’m now doing my practice educator training and I have to say like, continuing that has been really helpful for me and given me a lot more confidence in practice and alongside that, I’ve been doing various social media things like YouTube and I’m quite active on Twitter and it's really given me a, a wide community so I’m going to talk a little bit more about that.
But I just wanted to set the scene and my practice before qualifying was with, I volunteered a lot with children but then I ended up working with adults and I’ve worked in various different roles which again I’ve been really fortunate to have a good career so far, and I’ve worked in hospitals, various hospitals, in a rehabilitation centre, I worked on a new project with district nurses in quite an impoverished area and we did some really good preventative work, and now I’m working in a larger team of social workers, so I feel that I’ve had a really good insight into different areas of adult services.
Philippa
That's great and we're really looking forward to having a conversation with you today.
So today's podcast is focused very much on professional standard 5 which is ‘act safely respectfully and with professional integrity’ and for this podcast though, we're going to focus on social media and how as social workers we can use social media in a way that ensures we act safely and respectfully, and with professional integrity.
Social media is increasingly a feature of how we communicate and through the course of the pandemic we've seen social media play an important role in how communities remain connected, how social workers engage with children, families and people accessing support and care services, as well as how we connect with colleagues and friends.
Whilst for some social media is a source of support and connectedness, for others it's far from a safe space. As social workers who are part of a regulated profession, we also need to think about what we post online and think about the link between the personal and professional and that's what we're going to talk a bit more about today. Matthew.
Matthew
Thanks Philippa, so standard 5 is quite big, there's a lot of elements to standard 5 but we're going to drill down into a couple of elements of standard 5, just to sort of frame this discussion really about social media, so particularly standard 5.2 talks about ‘as a social worker, I will not behave in a way that will bring into question my suitability to work as a social worker while at work or outside of work’ and I think that opens up the discussion a little bit about social media, and how can social workers use social media, both in their role but how they use that in a you know, personal setting as well, how best to navigate that, how to do that in the most appropriate way whilst maintaining those professional standards, particularly 5.2, and that's essentially why we've got you here Kayleigh because I think you are really active on social media and are, and are a frontline social worker and I think for some that might sound an unusual balance, but really keen to hear how you do that really, and how you best navigate some of the challenges that that might bring?
Kayleigh
Yeah so I can remember on my training, a lot of what we were taught was around sort of, the dangers of social media and what not to do, which to be honest was really helpful because I think it opened people's eyes around you know, the things to avoid and I think by the end of the training, people were a lot more aware of that and I have looked at research around it because I’m doing a dissertation on the topic and I think that a lot of people acknowledge that that's needed and so I closed, I made everything a lot more secure on my personal accounts and I also thought about changing my name so that I wasn't easily found if I was working with people on, as part of my placements and then I’ve continued to do that as I’ve progressed, and that's helped to keep my family safe but also thinking about not sharing pictures of things that might bring the profession into disrepute, I think that's the right word isn't it, has been really helpful, but then also and as I’ve continued to study, a lecturer actually recommended that I set up a professional account and set up a Twitter page as part of my learning and it's, it's like opened up a whole new world to me and it's been absolutely brilliant for, for me to be part of these communities and it's absolutely fascinating to see how people communicate on there, and I feel like a lot of the mainstream media out there about social work can sometimes be quite biased and it's a lot of the narratives are coming from elsewhere but on here, there's a really diverse community of people with experience of going through services or people from advocacy social work, and everyone coming together and having some really stimulating discussions, so I think being on Twitter has been really positive.
And then there's a lot more sort of, content out there for social workers beyond just like academic books and I think every, it creates an environment where you can talk to the people that write those books and feel like they're not someone distant, they're actual people that are interested in making a difference and have spent a long time, and working on the literature and I think for me I sort of lacked a bit of confidence around myself academically but more recently I’ve started to understand that everyone's just doing the best and it's nice to that these people are more human because they're interacting with you, you know? It's a really stimulating environment so I find there's a lot of positives as well and I suppose that's why I’ve become really interested in it because I want people to know that it's out there.
Matthew
Yeah and I think those positives are really interesting and I think I am relatively new to understanding the positives of social media particularly in relation to social work and because I think when I was working in the local authority and as a sort of front line social worker, I suppose in different roles I shied away completely from social media, I was not active on social media in a professional capacity but really personally I wasn't really that involved in social media, it certainly wasn't talked about in my training, so throughout my training to be a social worker so the 3 years I spent doing my BA, I don't think social media was really talked about it but it was, it was quite a while ago the social media wasn't, I suppose, as big. It wasn't that long ago, it wasn't the dark ages, but it was 2006 I started my training so I suppose social media has progressed a lot since then hasn't it and I think in terms of the positive content, I’ve seen a lot of that in this role because I joined Twitter as I started my regional engagement role because we felt, as a team of regional engagement leads, it was really important to have that visibility but I think, and that has worked I think, that's been a real avenue for us to engage, I think Philippa would agree with that, but more than that it's given me access to content that I suppose I would have struggled to find otherwise.
You've got a supportive community on Twitter isn't it, about sharing different resources, getting access to different resources or just understanding what's out there I think.
My background's pretty much purely adults and men with learning disability and I think it's opened my eyes to lots of different practice areas that I think maybe would have been hidden if I hadn't have purposely gone out and searched for academic literature or books and things like that, so I think that accessibility I think is a real positive that I’ve found.
Philippa
Yeah I mean, most people who know me I’m a real advocate for Twitter you know, I’ve been on it for quite a long time I kind of was on it as a social worker and then when I went to work for the safeguarding board, kind of managed the kind of boards Twitter account but for me I would absolutely echo what you have been saying Kayleigh, it's kind of opened up my world you know. I’m a social worker in the South West which is a little bit detached in the, you know, from sort of what goes on in the bigger cities and it's been able to give me that access to kind of, academic research, to journals, to people with lived experience’s views and the Twitter community you know, there's a lot of negativity around social media but actually my experience has generally been really positive, and I’ve kind of managed to connect and engage with people and kind of you know, learn so much about social work and what sort of current trends are, what people are thinking and feeling, that it's actually been you know, a really positive experience for me.
You know, my background is children and families you know, I kind of have had, I think there is that caution about how we present ourselves on social media and that kind of, should it be an anonymity or should you use your real name, I mean I use a kind of mix of both, it's not quite my full name but I mean you could easily you could find me if you needed to, I’m not that anonymous but I think it's about how you kind of manage yourself you know, and really kind of think, think about what you put on and what you tweet about. You don't have to necessarily tweet you could just use it for more kind of a following kind of sense but I found it really positive and in this role Matthew I’d absolutely agree, as a regional engagement lead it's been a really helpful way to raise the profile of our roles, of Social Work England.
I know one of my concerns is that lots of social workers aren't on Twitter so we have to be really mindful that it's not an echo chamber for us you know, and that there is other mediums out there but Twitter in particular I’ve found it's been a really positive experience for me
Matthew
I think it's, I think for me that it's, I’ve got and I’m similar Philippa, my backgrounds really in, in Cumbria which is a small part of the North West and I think I was really conscious coming into this role that there's much more out there in terms of social work and I think just opening those, those doors and opening my eyes a little bit to that national picture and what's going on in different areas I think is, is such a, it's a good positive thing that I’ve found particularly in this role, but it's interesting to hearing that from your perspective as well clearly.
Kayleigh
Yeah I think it's, I mean it's quite amazing isn't it, how you can connect with people like obviously you got in touch with me via Twitter and it's like I wouldn't have come across you very easily like any other way and it's like you, you know what I’m interested in and then you can directly speak to someone in line with those interests and I think that gives social workers a lot of opportunities because it's like, it's very niche isn't it, the interests that people may have but then you could find lots of other people with that exact interest and then that's really encouraging for you, and then you might develop that interest further and I think even the wider scope of like, knowing what jobs are out there for social work is really interesting you know, when you see it in people's bios you just, you wouldn't know and I think like on, it, it helps you think about social work on more of a macro level than what you're just doing as face to face, because I enjoy the impact you can have but it helps you to engage more with wider like, social work drives around promoting social justice and human rights because it's like you know, with the Black Lives Matter I put out a video talking to someone about her experiences and the next thing I know, me and her have been asked to go on Siobhan Maclean's video you know, talking about it which then had a global thing because there was people from all over the world on there and it's like you, you really, and then you're like an ally in it and, and you understand and you're learning but it's also you're having conversations and it's not just the people that you would meet within your geographical area, you it's, it's quite amazing and I think it's only going to grow really.
Philippa
Obviously under standard 5 we've also got a standard 5.6 which is ‘as a social worker, I will not use technology, social media or other forms of electric communication unlawfully, unethically or in a way that will bring the profession into distribute’ – that's like quite a kind of, you know, intimidating I think, kind of statement really in many ways, it's very kind of really thinking about that unlawfully kind of unethically kind of, sort of driver. I suppose I'd like to turn it on its head a little bit because I think for me my experience of social media has been really positive but we have, as the regulator in terms of fitness to practise you know we do see examples where social media has brought someone, someone's fitness to practise into question and I suppose what we want to kind of unpick on this podcast really is more about, how can social workers ensure that they're using social media ethically.
Kayleigh, what, how, what would be your take on that as someone who is not only active on Twitter but also I’m thinking about the work you do through your YouTube, which is much more kind of visible and kind of out there really, in some of the messages that you're saying.
Kayleigh
Yeah so definitely the YouTube is very visible and I think that took a lot of planning before I even started. So, I did spend um over a year just on Twitter getting an idea of, well I suppose taking more of a bystander approach which I know a lot of people that advise about social media and social work advise that you do that to pick up what other people are doing and sort of become ingrained in that a little bit so that you get an idea of the boundaries of things, because I think that alongside sort of, the skills that you gain from social work itself like, we are, everything that we do we have to think about ethics and I think that that does transfer over, so I know that I’m not going to be sharing confidential details and even down to like little things that I’m saying, I’m like really thinking ‘does this draw anything back to giving a detail away?’ because even vague examples you, you can give it away because people can figure out what area you're from, like even my voice would give away that I’m from the North West of England you know, and so I’m just really careful with that and I suppose it's about like use of self, so a lot of what I do and I’m talking about my experience as a social worker and what I’ve developed from that and how I can help other social workers, and I use some examples of practice and because I want it to be really relevant, but it's not really of specific cases and so that helps me to, to really navigate what I’m doing and it gives me the confidence to know that I’m not sharing anything I shouldn't be, and I think ,I really like social pedagogy because I think they have it really well in terms of the balance between being professional and having integrity but also bringing a bit of who you are as a person and your personality, and I think that that's really guided me through what I share on social media.
So, in terms of the 3 P’s, that one of them is that your professional self and that's about having a purpose for what you're doing, so I’m aware of the legislation around what I can share what I can't share because I I’m checking things with my organisation like, the guidance and wider things and that so every time I’m posting something I’m thinking ‘well why am I posting this?’ like what's my purpose for it as opposed to just doing it because I’m having a bad day and I just you know, I just want to share something like I always share things usually because I’m trying to be positive online and when I feel positive in myself you know, and it's crafted, it's not just like I’ve had an emotional reaction I’m going to share something, and I think that's where some of the problems can come and when people are just doing it too quickly and I think that social media, the way that it is so quick can make you feel like you need to be sharing all the time or it can become like an extension of your private life, and that's a part of the 3 P’s isn't it, around like your personal so I can share a bit about myself but I’m not going into that private part where I’m sharing like my inner, like too much of my inner negative thoughts like, I’m trying to think of it all more well-rounded than that, so I think that's some of the key things that I think about.
Matthew
I’ve watched quite a bit of your YouTube, I’ve binge watched it cringeworthily when we started to talk about how we were going to do this podcast and then we started to watch a lot of your content and I thought, thought of myself and put myself in the position of when I was a student and I think I would have really got a lot of value out of that type of content, just hearing someone who's gone through exactly the same situation with me and the same training as me and come out the other side, and you talk a lot about the sort of interview prep that you do don't you, and you talk a lot about that sort of reflection when you maybe didn't get a job that you went in for and how you then prepared for the next interview and I think that type of content just simply wasn't available when I was trained to be a social worker and I think that thinking of students and the type of the way that content is now out there I think, I think is really valuable and that's a big takeaway for me, when I started to watch some of your content clearly is that what you're putting out there I think offers real value to the sector into the profession, and I think that is such a positive use of social media for grouping it all into that term.
Kayleigh
Well that's a massive compliment to me, I’m really chuffed about that because that is what I’m trying to do.
I just think you know, there's a, there's, everyone has their value don't they like, from an academic side like it's really useful and, and it's like I just think that social workers can use this platform to, to add that perspective and we can all sort of work together and I think being on social media helps you to realise how everyone fits together so well. and it's just about connecting and getting it out there and I have to say like I, I have been really supported by a lot of different people and it's been quite, it really inspires you to carry on and I’ve met some amazing people just from putting stuff out, and then people will send me questions and then it makes me think, it really makes me reflect I suppose, a little bit like when you're a practice educator and it makes you think ‘oh I struggled with that then, what can I say now?’ you know, ‘based on my experience’ so that's why I recommend like more social workers do it if they can you know, if they have the confidence because it's building something useful for people.
Matthew
Yeah and I think just having content out there for social workers in this form, it's how everyone absorbs information nowadays isn't it? I think there's a, there's a, YouTube's huge and I think you can go and search on YouTube and solve lots of problems and I think it's, it's a really useful platform for people and we were really keen on the back of Social Work Week to use all those recorded sessions and get them on Social Work England's YouTube channel because that type of content was gold dust, through some brilliant sessions across Social Work Week and we know that there was a limit to the amount of people that could attend them but I think just having a platform available to us like YouTub,e where that content can sit and people can revisit and watch and absorb that content in, in their own time is really, really valuable I think.
And the same, that was the thinking behind this podcast, we really wanted to start producing content, the idea behind this whole podcast was to sort of bring the professional standards to life a little bit for social workers and that's shaped all the conversations I suppose, but I think using it in that positive way to support the profession and the sector I think it has to be, has to be something that we can all start to do and I think, yeah I’ve seen an increase in what's out there over the last year or so.
Kayleigh
Yeah and I think it ,with what you're doing it like, it does address a little bit of a power imbalance doesn't it because sometimes you're worried you know, like ‘oh, you’re the regulator so they only get involved when you've done something wrong’ but actually it's like no, you're like, you want to build the profession and like, you want to be a positive influence and I think the fact that you are including social workers in this is really remarkable and shows that you are, you know, trying to do that and I think it's a really positive sign for people, so I think people should be really encouraged by what you're doing – it's clear that you, you know, you are social workers by background, you're doing good stuff out there.
Philippa
So Kayleigh, did you have any, any barriers or any challenges perhaps maybe from your employer or your peers or people, you know, when you talk, when you kind of began to sort of, start your kind of, social media profile really, sort of YouTube and kind of Twitter, was there any kind of, how did you navigate that, were there any issues that kept, arose from that?
Kayleigh
Oh right yeah so in terms of my social media, I’ve always been quite careful so I did have to talk to the head of service in the council about filling a form in to express what I was doing and explaining it to her and, and I think like there is a perception around social media that's like quite scary to a lot of people and I think I could tell by her initial reaction and, but that's how she felt but then actually she's been a massive support of what I was doing then when she understood it and then she sent me out to speak to, to, well Siobhan Maclean and she said ‘go and meet her and see what she's doing because she's a really good one around social work’ so then I went and met her and that's sort of where it started, but I think knowing that I had that backing was really important to me because it's never worth anything if you’re gonna lose your job is it, like I want to do practice like, that's who I am and like, what I’m doing and it's, and I think it just gave me that security.
And the other thing that she advised me to do was to read the sort of, the guidance that the council had from the communications team which helped me to know what I was doing was okay and check it out, and then if I ever include anyone in it, like my first video included someone from the MacIntyre charity and I was interviewing someone and he was brilliant on it, but I did like a consent form just to make sure that everything was sorted that way, so I think it's just about thinking about those things to make sure that everything's okay, and every year I just have to update the external interest form you know, to make sure that people know that what I’m doing and let them know that I have a presence on social media.
Philippa
Brilliant. I mean it's great that that's kind of, been really embraced by your organisation I think so you know a lot of people kind of sort of worry about that interface don't they, between that kind of professional and that personal and some people will very much just have you know, maybe a social media account that's what they do for personal, would never kind of you know post because I think people have that anxiety and they worry don't they, we know that you know, communicating online, I think you talked a little bit about that, about I think really helpful to hear you talk about the social pedagogy and the 3 P’s and really thinking about that professional self and kind of, thinking about not sort of posting something in haste or kind of, it being that reactive kind of response because the worry is we may say things kind of, in haste sometimes but it's not then always kind of, in print forever on a social media site so it's really as social workers we often, we, you know, that that caution is probably right, that we think about that, that actually what we may post can be seen by anybody and everybody you know, and sometimes that's what happens when things get referred to the regulator you know, things have been said and kind of, someone else may have picked up on that – we need to think about how the members of the public may perceive a social worker and how that might be seen by others in the sense that we may feel we put it in our, on our personal account but if someone knows that we're a social worker, they may you know we, in a fitness to practise, we have a public interest kind of, public protection kind of, emphasis so we may investigate under those criterias of ‘is this in the public interest, is this about public protection’ so that's where referrals to us can tip over into fitness to practise because you know, a public may say ‘well I can't believe a social worker who's a professional has made, that has got that view or, or said that’ so it is about thinking about that, how, how do you how have you kind of, found kind of, you know, other people's responses to you like your peers, how's that, how does that fit in terms of who you work with, and you've done some really great interviews with people on your YouTube channel but how do they respond to it?
Kayleigh
So I think just picking up on another point you made, I think generally some people will say to me ‘I can't believe that you had to go to all those lengths you know, to check because why shouldn't you be able to just go out and do what you want in your personal time’ and it's like well, even in your pers-, like even in your personal time if you're having a public presence of any kind, whether it's online or in real-, or in person and you are still a professional and you still have to be under those standards and make sure your behaviour is always like, that you're showing integrity so I think it's just being aware of that, that, and I think something that's been key for me is having a separate account for my personal account and for my professional account because if you are like, joining groups and things and you have your personal account, like all those people in that group then could possibly look at who all of your friends and family are, or even if you think that it's protected sometimes that information can be available to look at, so I think keeping a really clear boundary between the 2 is something that I’ve increasingly found is important.
So in terms of what people around me thought, I think it's been really good for me to have built my connections on Twitter first because then when I went out on YouTube I was sharing it with those Twitter people that were all social workers, as opposed to my actual like friends that aren't social workers just feeling like I was spamming them you know, because that's sometimes how it can feel constantly and I think it's like, knowing that people are interested in what I’m saying and then you sort of get a communication going with people who are interested in that, and that's really helped me so, but in terms of people in, in the council I talk about it if they're interested but I’m not like ramming it down everyone's throat so I’m not you know, on YouTube doing all of this, so I think it helps people that are going for like interviews or like if they're interested in these things, and people are quite interested you know, once they see what's going on so.
Philippa
It's really interesting isn’t it, because I think one of the issues is that we know that lots of social workers don't use Twitter. I mean when I was in practice you know, I was a team manager and I’m, I’m not sure any of my team were on Twitter or on social media, I mean I’m a real fan and a lot of them would use maybe other forms of social media, so Facebook or I know you know Instagram is kind of increasingly having a presence isn't it. I mean do you, do you use any, and LinkedIn, I mean I’d never been on LinkedIn until I joined Social Work England, it was not something I was part of I mean, are there any other, are there kind of, some social media platforms that you do use and some that you don't, or you kind of, you know, venturing further afield?
Kayleigh
Yeah so I am venturing a bit now because what you find is like with, with YouTube because there's not as many social workers on there and that looking for content because there isn't a massive amount of content on there and I don't think people directly know to search there yet, and so I have to use like other platforms to feed people to my videos because otherwise you can end up putting a lot of time in something and think it's useful but no one knows it's there so, and I use quite a lot of them now, LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram and I think because I’m interested in it I kind of want to know how they all work, and I also find that people talk differently on different platforms so I find that like, having an Instagram account is good because people feel quite comfortable to send me like, a direct message whereas they wouldn't feel confident to send me a direct post on Twitter and on Twitter you can't send a direct message unless they're following you already so it's like, I think for me I felt initially like Twitter was only for really, really smart people and I thought I didn't belong there but then I ended up being on them, realising that everyone was quite normal and it's fine and I think one of the things with Twitter that can be problematic is I, I think that sometimes people have a really strong opinion about one thing and then can sometimes critique what people are saying just based on that one viewpoint, without looking at the whole picture, and I think sometimes that can cause issues on there and cause conflict and, and I think it's just about figuring out like the nature of what happens on each one and building up what you want to see, because Boyd and Ellinson like call it a bounded system and it's, it's like you're creating a space that you want to see. It's kind of like you have control over the news that you want to consume and I think that's the power of it because you can choose, and I think people are wanting to take more control over what they are reading and what they're consuming day-to-day because it is important and I think if I see things that are really negative and I don't want to see it, I’m just not going to look and not follow it and I think that's how over time, you can build up a really good thing but I think for some people, if they were starting out it'd be hard to know who to follow like, it's like a blank slate.
So, something I was thinking of doing is just putting a sheet together about good people to follow you know, maybe for people starting out so, but yeah what, what's your thoughts?
Matthew
I’ve just been thinking that as you were talking really, about I think it's really important about that time balance and just what popped into my head is that sometimes social media can be that 24-hour people thing, everyone's contactable over those 24 hours, 7 day weeks and contacting you about work related matters and things like that I think there's a balance there to find and I’m just keen to get your thoughts on it really, you weren't prepped for this question, I’ve just thought of it as we were talking so apologies for that, but how do you, how do you find the time, how do you find that balance between obviously you've got an incredibly busy day job and then you've got all these platforms that you're managing and all those, how do you do that?
Kayleigh
Yeah so that is actually a real challenge that I’m currently like working on but also I had a little bit of coaching from someone that was a social work lecturer and that really helped me to think about like, my boundaries and being intentional about what I was doing because it got to the point when I was first out doing this that I was being asked to speak to different people and my entire evenings were just like back, back to back blocked up with like meetings in the evenings and then you, it can really take away from your energy and I think that is something that you have to be aware of and, and something that you, you just figure out along the way.
So, I wouldn't say I’ve got it perfectly and I think it's like as well, you have to be careful of what you're responding to in the working day so I tend to just keep it to I might respond to a couple of things at lunchtime but I wouldn't want to be seen to be replying to things on a public platform all through the day because that would look bad to your employer obviously, and everything's time stamped so if anyone ever had a concern about that they could look back and see that you've done that, and I think they're just things that are taught in the research and, and some of the things that you read around the ethics and, and the professional issues and, and I think there's no solid answer, it's like a grey area because I suppose like, it is like you're reflecting on your learning, it is part of your social work day to be learning but then also you need to have a clear balance, and so I think in terms of me, I’m I think it's like, helpful to talk to other people who are on social media to find out how they've managed it and in terms of like the messages that I get sometimes, I’ve just had to realise that it might make you feel like you have to respond straight away but you have to stop yourself from feeling like you have to because sometimes that can happen and I think it's just about like, blocking out set time to respond and I think that's something that you develop, it's like a new skill.
Matthew
Yeah and I think having those boundaries is very important but recognising where those boundaries need to sit because it's really important that you know, there, that you don't comment or aren't as active through the day on your social media but as for me, that's the complete opposite because my Twitter is work based it's only about my role as a regional engagement lead. I’m only active through the day on it I’m and Philippa knows me very well, I’m very boundaried, I switch everything off on a night but when I’m at home with family, I don't look at Twitter, weekends I don't look at Twitter but understanding where your boundaries need to sit I think is, is individual to everyone isn't it, but really important to get right.
Kayleigh
Yeah and I genuinely would be really interested to speak to someone who could tell me if that is allowed you know, if I am replying to things because I read something and it said not to and I thought ‘well I’m gonna be really careful about that now’ but yeah, it is individual.
Philippa
And I think that brings back to one of those challenges isn't it, around social media and how that feeds into us, us meeting standard 5 really isn't it, is that there's some black and white and clear what you shouldn't be doing, what you should be doing, you do need to think about as a, as a registered social worker you know, you're right that professional person/personal kind of link that, how that could be perceived but there are some things that there isn't clear kind of guidance or, or sort of information about, what we should or shouldn't be doing you know, and Matthew and I have that conversation quite a lot, even as regional engagement leads, you know, we work for the regulator and do we need to think about you know, at times we have to think about what I may want to comment on or I may like you know, and it's kind of that kind of, you know I absolutely believe you know, about social work and promoting social justice and being you know, political but obviously I still have to be mindful that I work for the, the, Social Work England which is the regulator of social workers so there's a challenge there all the time isn't there.
In terms of sort of bringing it to kind of a close really Kayleigh, it's been really, really lovely to talk to you today and kind of hear about your journey across social media and hear about how you've used it in a really positive way to kind of, I think you know, improve you know, address practice and to support the profession to pro-, to support the sector, the work that you've done around sort of newly qualified social workers and students, I think you know, your videos if anyone wants to check them out they're on YouTube and I would really recommend them but in terms of any kind of, sort of pointers or kind of, top tips that you would have to, to give to those who might be listening today?
Kayleigh
Yeah so um I was going to say that Claudia Megele and Dr Buzzi have a really helpful book that's just out about social media and social work, and I hope I pronounce their names right, but I do follow what they say, they have some interesting things that are out on, online all the time and I think it's just about doing what feels right for you so, and not feeling like ‘oh everyone else is doing it so I need to’ you know, if you want to make some content do that if it feels right but it's not like, it's not your job so do something that brings you joy and I think if you are creating content, plan it in a way that's like actually in line with what's really important to you because that's how you find the community of people that you want, like I’ve been really fortunate to have taken that time to plan and now the people that are getting in touch with me really align with what's important to me and genuine people, and I really appreciate that it's really, makes everything worthwhile to me now even though it's, it's extra work it's like it, it gives me more than it takes I'd say.
Philippa
I’m going to ask you for a top tip, Matthew. Have you got a top tip?
Matthew
I have got a top tip and I’ve been thinking about it as we've been talking but I think for me my top tip is that there's some really brilliant content out there and I think that is beneficial now for the stage that I’m at and the role that I’m in in my social work career but that content would have been beneficial at all stages of my social work career, so thinking back to when I was thinking about being a social worker if I could have gone out and watched videos about social workers and what they were doing and what that looked like, that would have really helped being a student, that would have absolutely helped, lots of content out there would have really helped me and newly qualified and all the different roles that I went, I went into.
I think absorbing content is something I get a lot out of, it's not all social work related, I watch a lot of football rubbish and all sorts of nonsense, but I think there's lots of beneficial content out there that's what I would think, use social media to absorb content and develop as part of your continuing professional development, there's lots out there to absorb and learn from.
Philippa
Brilliant. My top tip mainly is more about you know, I think you're absolutely right. I think you both say there's lots of real positives about social media, I think it's important that we do have some caution around it because you know, there can be some negativity and it can also be not always positive for everybody but I think you know, I would encourage any social worker to kind of, even if it's just you know, not actively posting to kind of use it as a way of making connections and that networking, I think that's the real positive and I think if you're worrying about what you then may post then maybe you don't post it because if that's coming into your head, then maybe you don't, and never post, like you said earlier Kayleigh, never post in haste or in that kind of reactive way because that's when if it's already out there you know, even if you delete it someone might have taken a screenshot and saved it so I think if you're having second thoughts, don't post that but do not, you know, I think I’ve seen nothing but benefit of being on social media and I think there's lots of real kind of positives to be taken away from it.
Any last thoughts from you Kayleigh?
Kayleigh
Yeah I just wanted to add to your point because I thought that was really helpful, about not just putting stuff out, you can always write things up on in drafts somewhere and keep things and sometimes I'll do a video and get rid of it but sometimes I’ll think ‘oh actually, that's really good’ and I’ll put it out or collect things as I’m thinking about them and then I’ll craft it later you know, keep it, get a really good organisation system like using an Evernote or something, and then you can put things out later when you've got more time to think.
It's been a great conversation, thank you.
Matthew
Thanks again to Kayleigh for joining us today and sharing her knowledge and personal experiences of the use of social media as a source of support and connectedness.
If you enjoyed the discussion and would like to continue the conversation with us, you can follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn using the hashtag #ThisIsSocialWorkPod to share your thoughts. You can also find out more about the professional standards on our website.
Join us for our next episode where we'll be talking about standard 6 with a focus on promoting ethical practice and reporting concerns.
Thanks again and see you soon.
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In this episode, regional engagement lead Matthew is joined by social workers Lisa and Louise, who share their experiences of engaging with CPD, and how they’ve involved peers and people with lived experience to reflect and inform their practice.
They discuss what CPD means to them, the importance of feedback, and the impact that CPD has had on their quality of practice as social workers.
Join the conversation using #ThisIsSocialWorkPod on our website and follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn.
Transcript
Matthew
Welcome to This Is Social Work. I'm Matthew, Social Work England's regional engagement lead for the North West of England.
In this series we're focusing on the professional standards – the 6 standards that social workers must know, understand and be able to do as part of their role. The professional standards are specialist to the social work profession and apply to social workers in all roles and settings across England.
In this episode we're focusing on standard 4, maintain my continuing professional development. We're joined by social workers Lisa and Louise who share their experiences of engaging with CPD and how they've involved peers and people with lived experience to reflect and inform their practice. We discuss what CPD means, the importance of feedback and the impact that CPD has had on the quality of their practice as social workers.
We hope you enjoy the conversation.
So I'm really pleased to welcome our guests today. I'm going to hand over to both of them to introduce themselves so Lisa, could you just spend a little bit of time introducing yourself and your role and your background and things like that.
Lisa
Yes hi, hi Matthew, thanks. My name's Lisa Fjaelberg, I'm the practice lead for adult social care in Stockport. I've been in this post since February this year so it's still quite early days really, and this is my first non-operational post. I qualified in 2000, so almost 21 years ago which makes me feel very old. My first, my first qualified post was in the London borough of Newham and then I moved up North to Manchester, Rochdale and now in Stockport so yeah, so I’m an AMHP as well for 10 years, just over 10 years and a best interests assessor as well, and practice educator but I haven't acted in that role for a little while now, yeah so, that's a little bit about me really.
Matthew
Thanks Lisa, really appreciate that. Louise, could you do the same, just a bit of an introduction and where you've come from.
Louise
Yes, so my name is Louise Ijelekhai, I’m a social worker from the London borough of Bexley and I work within children's social care. Prior to me working as a social worker, I’ve worked as a support worker for a residential setting which supports homeless families. Prior to that, I also worked within a children's activity camp called Camp Vermont and I enjoyed doing lots of activities with the children. I also was a nursery practitioner for a couple of months as well. I’ve also done volunteering work for people that suffer from brain injuries.
Matthew
Thanks Louise. I'll maybe just give a bit of an introduction as to my background. So, my background is in adult services, primarily in learning disability. So, my role prior to coming to Social Work England was within a local authority. So, we're really pleased to have some guests today, really pleased to have guests from frontline practice. I think it's really important that we have these conversations with people who can bring in different experiences, so it's good to have a good mix of experience and coming from different backgrounds as well. So, today's podcast is focused on standard 4. Standard 4 is CPD, so continuing professional development. For us at Social Work England, we've put a real emphasis on CPD and we've put a lot of focus on CPD. It isn’t new for social workers, it's been a feature of social work really ever since it's been a regulated profession formally, but I think social workers continually learning and continually developing themselves has been a requirement of social work practice for much longer than it just been a regulated profession. For us it really supports us to achieve our overall aims as an organisation, so feeds into the organisation around public protection so that is the primary focus of Social Work England as a regulator but we also want to improve standards in social work and improve public confidence in social work as well.
So the direction that we've taken in relation to CPD and the requirements that are placed on social workers in relation to their CPD really supports us as an organisation to achieve all those things that we’ve set out to do. As I say it's not new for social work, it has been a requirement thinking back to when social work was regulated with the GSCC and then into HCPC there has been a CPD element to those to, those registrations.
For us we describe CPD as reflection and the learning activities that social workers undertake throughout their career and to maintain and improve their practice in whatever role they've got, so that could be adults, in children's, that could be in private, voluntary and independent sector. Social workers have a breadth of roles and there's a CPD requirement for all the social workers. So we, when we took over the regulation of social workers on the 2 December 2019, we changed the requirement in relation to CPD so there was, there's all, there was always been a requirement for social workers to record the CPD but we at Social Work England required social workers to record their CPD in a standardised way, all in their online accounts – that was a big change, that was a big switch for social workers.
We've now gone through that first renewal cycle so all social workers have done that and are now actively engaging with their online account and using it to upload CPD. We also reviewed 2.5% of those accounts, and we can talk about some of that a little bit later. What we have been really keen in our messaging around CPD, and this has formed a big part of my role as an engagement lead over the last 2 years nearly, yeah, 2 years now, is really engaging with social workers around what that requirement means, and what we've been really keen to get across is that CPD isn't a specified number of days, it isn't a specified number of hours and the type of CPD, we really want social workers to have the flexibility with, and the creativity to understand what CPD means to them and what they can get the most out of, so we haven't specified that, and we know that CPD can mean training courses so that's sort of, more conventional type of training but also there's lots of other things that social workers get really good value out of in terms of their development and for us, there's a real focus on the impact that whatever that activity is, what impact is that having on social workers practice.
I'm going to come to Lisa just to try and get your view Lisa really on, from your own perspective I suppose, what CPD is to you and what it means now that Social Work England's the regulator and the requirements have maybe changed a little bit?
Lisa
Yeah so you know, I've been, as I've said, a social worker for a long time now so I’ve seen the changes throughout the years really and I think for me, CPD has been about you know, it's as much as it's learning about ourselves and about situations, for me it's about understanding some of that and as you say, reflecting on that and what you know, what difference that will make to your practice going forward. in terms of the, the hours or the days I think that can be you know, I think initially it was a little bit, probably a bit confusing really, a little bit you know you, I wonder if you, if you're capturing the right stuff or you know, you're doing enough of it and I think certainly in comparison to my AMHP role where I am required to do a certain amount of hours per year, it's 18 hours per year you know, so that does feel very free in comparison really, and I think that's a good thing – it allows you to be quite creative with that really I think and I think over the last year particularly you know, just you know, just your first year, I think that creativity is really if you, if you've found it and if you've been allowed, you know, allowed yourself to look at it in that way really, I think it's kind of come from nowhere. There's a multitude, I think, of CPD opportunities out there.
Matthew
And I think the last year is a perfect example isn't it, where there were perhaps, training courses weren't available, whether particularly in that classroom-based type training course, so I think that shift to a much more flexible way of thinking, creative way of thinking, was kind of forced a little bit by the pandemic and I think we really, really wanted to encourage that and encourage that flexibility and creativity I suppose.
Lisa
Yeah, no, absolutely I agree with you and I think people have you know, found different platforms so whether that's you know, social media I think plays quite a big role for me anyway, particularly Twitter I think is my kind of, work-related stuff. I think it's great for kind of, bite-sized pieces of information that you can go and read and listen to or watch and then, and then reflect on and so in some respects, I think it would be, it's quite easy to find you know, one piece of CPD that you can then reflect on, it's just about I think people embracing those opportunities when they come around really.
Matthew
And I think, so some of it for us is around people understanding, understanding that they've got that flexibility and that they've got that creativity I think that has been key in in the messages that we've been trying to get over the last year, particularly that first renewal cycle, that we want social workers to think in that way and and to be able to decide for themselves really, what works for them and what platform that might come from or what form that comes in is, is entirely up to yourselves.
Thank you. Louise, could you come in at that point and just sort of, from your perspective around what CPD means to you and how that has felt for you in the last sort of, particularly in that last renewal cycle?
Louise
Yep, so similar to what Lisa said really and CPD means just reflecting upon my professional development, looking at things within my practice that I’ve done well, things that I haven't done so well and ways in which I can make changes to become a better practitioner.
I think coming from a more you know, a children's social care perspective and looking at when I do write my assessments or when I do do home visits, exploring you know, ways in which I’ve spoken you know, to a particular client and looking at ways in which I can maybe alter my tone of voice or a particular piece of knowledge that I drew upon, it's just really about making myself a better practitioner for the people I work with and I think during the whole pandemic, I think everyone has felt a bit of like you know, uneasiness in terms of their practice and how can we continue to develop as practitioners but I would say having online learning has really helped to still be able to build my knowledge base.
Initially it was quite nerve-wracking being online and having break out rooms on Microsoft Teams but I think I’ve been able to adjust to it quite well and again, it's quite convenient, you're in your home, you're learning, you don't have to get up in the morning and kind of go to a different building to have training, so it definitely does have its perks but equally it has been quite challenging in not being in that kind of environment where you are with people, when you're asking questions in a normal environment, where you know, that the assessor’s there talking to you. It has been yeah, it's been good but also been quite challenging too.
Matthew
Yeah, and I think that that shift in online delivery of training and things like that I think was obviously sped up by the pandemic, wasn't it? I think everything shifted online really, really quickly. I think there has been that adjustment. I miss being in a room with people and being able to have conversations face to face and as you said, being able to work with social workers on a sort of, more joint approach has perhaps not been possible over the last, over the last 12 months and I think that's taken a real shift but that in itself is, as I think a lot of social workers have reflected on that, haven't they, and that that has formed a big part of social worker CPD, just that self-reflection over the last 12, 18 months as to what was going on.
Lisa, has that felt the same for you?
Lisa
Absolutely, absolutely, I mean I’ve only been in this post since, since February so before that and throughout the pandemic, I was a team manager on a, on an adult's neighborhood team so an area team and yes absolutely, the kind of, the feeling from when you first you know, get told that you need to go and work from home and that kind of throws up in, you know, it throws into the air all of that ‘well how do I do my job? How do I do my job when I’m not sat with my peers, when I’m not sat with people, and I can't go out and visit people?’ you know, kind of routinely and have the kind of face-to-face dialogue with other professionals that you may work with and I think that that's, for some people that's been, it's been I think, it's been scary.
We've seen practice you know, good practice ,we've seen lots of good practice I think and I’m not just talking you know, social work here – I think across the board. I think fundamentally that people have done what they can and I think people have been trying to do the best that they can given the situation, and have done really good work overall but I don't know that people necessarily have always found the time to reflect on that I think sometimes, and that for me was one of the big challenges really, that kind of, that juggling act between providing social work input, if you like, and intervention with adults and quite honestly, just getting through the day, getting through the week and living in that way really, going from week to week and doing the best that you can, but I think for some people yeah, absolutely I think the you know, the CPD element of that has I think been an ask that perhaps you know, has not come as easily for some people if I’m honest either.
Matthew
Yeah and, and I think that's that we've seen, that you're not the first person that's said that Lisa and I think we've, we've seen that in, we commissioned some research so YouGov completed some research on our behalf and spoke specifically to social workers about CPD. So there was 504 social workers spoken to and that took a few different forms. There was 2 online focus groups, there was one-to-one interviews, but also looking at some anonymised CPD records as well and part of some of that was, 60 of those people said that not having enough time was a real barrier to CPD and I think we absolutely recognise that and particularly during the pandemic, I think the crisis that social workers were having to manage, the change that social workers are having to manage and just that shift to working from home that we've talked about, I think time has become, is, it has always been a factor for social workers, time and workload and one will always be a factor, but I think the last 12 months and, as you said Lisa, our first year of being a regulator, that was, that was a, there was a lot going on, wasn't there? It was a big issue.
Lisa
Absolutely, absolutely, you're right. I think workload and time will always and have always been factors but this was something else, wasn't it really? This was something else and you know, people's work life, home life combined you know, there was hard to find the line between the 2 sometimes, you know? People were homeschooling and you know, or you know I just think it was very difficult and I think as a profession, we've done, I think we've done remarkably well on the whole at you know, upholding the rights of people where we've been able to do that and where we've known about that and in the way that we can really. But yeah, the guidance you know, guidance changed frequently you know it was one way and then maybe overnight sometimes it felt it was another way so yeah, a kind of moving feat really.
Matthew
Yeah absolutely. Have you felt that Louise? And you're, and still in your frontline role, have you felt that through the last 12 months?
Louise
Yeah, I would say that in terms of working from home I found that I work for longer hours ironically so you know, my screen time has been increased quite a lot and you know, it does affect in terms of time that you do have to dedicate to CPD if you are spending longer doing case notes or you know, doing your video calls and stuff it means that the time to do CPD is less and less than we spend doing screen time, so it has had its, you know, its difficulties but I think what's helped me is just having a day or an afternoon where I dedicate just to do my CPD and I switch off my emails, I switch off my work phone, I think ‘I’m going to stop and just reflect now’ because I think within social work you can just kind of get lost in the, the tons and tons of case of case notes and assessments you have to do so you know, giving yourself that protected time where you can has been quite beneficial for me.
Matthew
And I think that is really important, and there's a role for employers there and Lisa, I’ll come back to you because I know your role now is, is around this, around acknowledging that social workers do need that space, do need that time and the benefits of it is, is really important for both the organisation but also for the individual social worker as well.
Lisa
Yeah, no absolutely, absolutely, and I think in this role that is one thing, this is a, this is a new role so there hasn't been anyone in it before so it's been a lot about you know, finding feet, finding you know ways to support people but there is a balance you know, as well I think you know, we want to drive up you know, the practice, we want to make sure that people are you know, completing CPD, that they have the time you know, I’d like to look at you know, other mechanisms really with, about social work forums, whether that's you know, peer support, the teams already do peer support but you know, maybe learning circles, lunch and learn sessions, all of that kind of stuff but you know, as Louise has said already you know, as a frontline practitioner I think in some respects that feels a little bit like a luxury, and I think it's an essential luxury personally. I think you know, we can't do a good job unless we're making sure that we are you know, fit to practise but, and that we have time and space to reflect and think and also often you don't even have time to think, you don't even have time to think before one task to the next one, so I think it's really important but I think it's definitely a balancing act between recognising what the frontline pressures are and what people are going through.
Matthew
There is a balance and I think we're keen, all the region engagement leads, are keen to work with employers around that and to ensure that the social workers are supported to meet the requirements of the regulator but yeah, understanding that context and I think all the region engagement leads, our social workers come from different backgrounds in terms of social work but I think having that understanding around, around what the demands are on frontline social workers I think is really important in shaping the offer to social workers and that CPD offer. But yeah, there's absolutely work to do I think to try and get that right and we've seen an interesting sort of, particularly you Louise, talking about sort of online learning we're seeing as part of that YouGov research, that 76% recorded CPD based on online learning and I just don't think we would have seen that pre-pandemic, I just think that online has always been a feature for myself and I’ve always used different resources around online learning and e-learning sort of, started to become more of a feature with my previous employer but I think that feels really high.
I don't know, I don't know what, Louise you think about that and Lisa, I think that definitely feels different.
Louise
I agree, it's very high. Yeah I think initially before the whole lockdown situation came last year, most of my training was done face-to-face in you know, like a proper room with you know, the person that would teach, and you had, you know your peers with you but you know, lockdown did force us to have to change and to try different ways, that really was quite beneficial to our learning and there was challenges at the beginning with connection and the PowerPoints not really being on Microsoft Teams or people being on mute and you're thinking ‘I can't hear you anymore’ and so you know, it did have its funny challenges but yeah, we did it as a profession and the fact that people you know, got so much learning out of it given the stats that you read out, it shows that you know online learning does have quite profound effects on our practice, so it's positive.
Matthew
Yeah, and I suppose it comes back to what you were saying earlier around now trying to figure out what that offer can look like and how best that can support frontline practitioners so is it like, longer online training courses, those short lunch and learn type things, there's lots of different ways of doing it isn't there, but I think just trying to figure out some of that is really important.
Lisa
Absolutely you know, I think I agree Louise you know it was all, and Mathew, it was all kind of you know, it was all in you know, as Louise said, in a proper room you know it was, and I think some people didn't consider it you know, CPD if it wasn't you know, a face-to-face you know, session, a day, whatever that looked like, whatever it was on. I think people valued e-learning or online learning less if I’m honest and I think that, I think that that's definitely catapulted us into the more of an online way of being and more of a kind of, a flexible way of being and maybe some of the you know, the ways that we work generally you know, going forward you know, maybe that will, some of that will stick I think.
Matthew
Yeah and there's some good to come from it isn't there, I think people's learning styles are different as well don't, aren’t they and I know that I’ve typically always struggled with that sort of classroom day, sit in a room listening to someone talk for 8 hours, I've always typically struggled with that and you can, you can imagine how amazing I was at university, in school, but I learned much better by myself and sort of spending time reflecting and reading. I get a lot from podcasts ironically, I’m sitting here recording one, but I get a lot from that, I get a lot from learning in that way where I can spend my own time doing things but, so the online way really fits for me, but I know different learning styles benefit from different ways too don’t they and I think there's that sort of multitude in terms of an offer I think, is something that needs to be considered, isn't it?
Lisa
I think so, I think so definitely and I think you know, a mechanism that allows discussion as well you know you know, getting together whether it's the breakout room, whether it's in a corner of a proper room, you know whether that you know, whatever that looks like I think that needs, that's how we learn a lot of it you know, whether it's online, whether it's podcast, but it has to be an element I think for me, of reflecting with other people you know, on situations and how you can do it differently, and I think I get a lot from those sorts of discussions around you know, around practice and about you know, scenarios and I think you know, you, there are elements of that that you can't really replicate online or on, in a podcast or a webinar you know something like that that's not interactive.
Matthew
Yeah, I know, I mean I would agree. I mean my wife's a social worker so we often have those discussions, we don't always just talk about social work, but that is always someone who I’ve had reflective conversations with and it works both, both ways for us, I think is or has often been a feature for our, throughout our careers particularly now I’ve moved away from frontline practice, but we as regional engagement leads always try and have, we have sort of monthly, sometimes fortnightly, just reflective discussions about practice, what is going on in social work practice, and we all really benefit from them.
Reassuringly in the research 83% of social workers said that they see the value in CPD which I think just for me reiterates the point that CPD isn't new for social workers, this isn't something certainly that Social Work England has introduced, it's always been a feature of social work practice and social workers understand the importance, understand the meaning of it but also understand what it gives them as individual practitioners, and I think you've both touched on what it means to yourselves but I think it's, social workers know why they need to do CPD and I think that that is true, they're in that. in that.
Number 4.1 is one of the elements of the CPD standard that we get asked a lot about so 4.1 is ‘incorporating feedback from a range of different sources including people with different experience of social work’. We often get asked a lot of questions of ‘how do I do that, how does that need to look?’ and what, why is that important and that can particularly come from people that maybe aren't in frontline roles, how do they do that in that specific role.
Louise, what's your sort of thoughts on getting feedback, is that, is that a feature of your practice, is it, is it important in your learning and development?
Louise
Yeah I would say feedback is really important you know, it's about obtaining a person's views about how they found your practice, so it could be like a meeting or a report I’ve written or a home visit and you know, I think having that conversation with a colleague or with a parent about how they found your work can really help to unpick any weaknesses I have and can pick the strengths I have, and ways in which I can actually improve my work with people and I personally find that doing the more informal feedback is what I do often to be honest, so normally after a meeting I would ask the parents how do they find it you know, what are their views on that and just those little conversations that you may not think is feedback, it is feedback you know? They're letting you know how they found your work and how they found you chairing that meeting.
You know, I've through doing my ASYE a few years ago, feedback was quite a heavy feature to have and I think now that we've got that within the CPD framework, it just helps to ensure that practitioners are developing and growing as they develop in their career.
Matthew
Yeah and I think your point about it not having to be this really formalised way of getting feedback, I mean that isn't the ask that, there isn't a requirement from Social Work England to upload a formal piece of feedback that you've got from somebody that you're working with, upload that to your Social Work England account and reflect on it, you can do that absolutely but that isn't the ask. The, you’re right, feedback can come in many different ways from many different sources and in many different forms, and I think sometimes those little comments that have been made to you verbally or over an email or something like that can have a real impact and can really prompt some good valuable reflection and learning, and I think that's the kind of things that we want social workers to capture and I think that that informal stuff can often have real value.
Lisa, do you want to come in at that point around feedback?
Lisa
Yeah I think, I think it's something that you know, if in, when you're doing your social work training or when you're doing your ASYE, I think that's very structured, it's there, but I think when you haven't been through you know, for some of us we didn't have an ASYE you know, programme in place so since I, you know, since I was on placement, I haven't had a direct observation in a formal way like that obviously you know, but, and I think it depends a lot on you know what sort of team you're on, whether you go out with your teammates, you know, whether you take a manager out with you, you know, but I think, I think that Louise is right, it is about the, sometimes the small stuff you know, sometimes about the you know, it's about, maybe a, you know just tid bits really about you know, you could have done this a bit better, you could have done that a bit better, it's on emails it's, you know, it's face to face, it's on the telephone but I think what we're not very good at doing is doing it routinely.
I don't think we're in practice of doing it as a kind of standard approach throughout really. I think generally you know, we hear about the bad stuff, we hear about the stuff that we haven't done so well or that you know, we have to talk to somebody about something that they haven't done so well but I think we need to be better at routinely saying ‘that was a really good piece of work’ or you know, ‘you did really well in that that meeting that was really difficult, you handled that really well’ what you know, what, whatever that looks like, I think absolutely we need to, we need to take advantage of those opportunities so it becomes the norm I think.
So for some people you know, going out on a visit feels like a direct observation even, when it's not in the same way you know and I've had people say to me ‘what do you want to come out with me for?’… [laugh]
Louise
They get a bit nervous!
Lisa
…Because I do because exactly, ‘what's your hidden agenda?’ and I'm like ‘but I just want to come out with people’ because hey, it's good to get out and meet people, it's good to get out and see, you know, that you know, that I can see you know, when I was a team manager and an assistant team manager on a few different teams so you know, I want to be able to say hand on heart I know that this, this person practices in this way, I have seen it with my own eyes and I think that's really difficult to replicate if we're not making this an ordinary event really. The people, it makes people a bit suspicious, doesn't it, I think.
Matthew
Yeah, and I think that the word suspicion is probably right, isn't it? I think that there can often be that in trying to support social workers in this way, that and that it's not, it's not all negative and there's, there might be some constructive feedback, which is fantastic and can really be built upon, but there'll be lots of positives as well and I think having that discussion, and maybe that comes in a formal supervision or whatever way that comes about, I think can really offer something to that social worker in their, in their development.
Lisa
Absolutely and vice versa, you know, when you were chairing a meeting ‘oh, how did I do?’ you know, ‘what did people think?’ you know. It’s not very often you get it you know, I think that would be a good thing you know both ways really.
Matthew
Yeah, and I mean, you talked about being a practice educator, practice assessor Lisa and I think that was, I was a practice educator when in my previous role and I think I always got a lot out of that for myself in terms of my own development and learning, I think you would probably get a lot more feedback in that process wouldn't you, if you were supporting an ASYE or a student, and I think that always felt really beneficial to me as a social worker and that was always something I really enjoyed doing.
Lisa
Definitely, definitely – I think it helps keep you current, helps keep you aware of what the issues are and how you come across because we can all get a little bit you know, staler you know and we need, we need to keep that current don't we, and I think you know, we need to be responsible for our own practice but sometimes we need a hand with that as well.
Matthew
Yeah and, and I think sometimes the only way you know, that is through feedback isn't it and I think that, that honest feedback is sometimes the only way that you'll be able to pick up on that.
Lisa
Absolutely and to have that honest dialogue.
Louise
Throughout the first lockdown, I found that just getting like random feedback from people like sometimes like a someone might email me saying ‘Louise, you shared this really difficult meeting quite well’ and it makes you feel as if I am doing good, like I, you know, like even though we've been in a really difficult situation with the lockdown and you know, struggling to really meaningfully safeguard children, just getting those little emails and little comments here and there, it just boosts up your kind of, self-esteem and how you feel about being a practitioner so I do think we do need to do a lot more with you know, encouraging people when giving people feedback when they may not expect it, because those little things really mean a lot to practitioners I feel.
Matthew
Yeah and then I think the key then is then how that individual practitioner that, then sort of reflects on that and maybe takes that away and spends more time thinking about it and considering what needs to change, what needs to happen, what need what they can embed, if it was positive how they can do that more, and I think that reflection bit is really important and I think that forms a real big part of the requirement for social workers with this, with the CPD, and I think reflection’s always, social workers understand what reflection is but I think again it can be a time issue.
Louise, do you think there's any other barriers to social workers sort of, spending that time reflecting and then using that as a CPD upload to their Social Work England Account?
Louise
I think finding the time, I know we've spoken about it already but it can be tricky, especially you know, in children's social care we you know, sometimes if an emergency comes in, you're running out to support that family or you're in court the next day you know, it can be, every day is different and I think finding that time to dedicate to doing CPD can be quite tricky.
I think for me that's been one of my barriers I’ve had but I think just having that dedicated time where you say ‘no, this afternoon I’m going to dedicate to this’. Switching off my devices has helped me but I know a lot of practitioners have had other barriers, like not really understanding what to put in their CPD or not knowing how to reflect upon a particular like, training or interaction that they've had, but I think having things like this like a podcast can, you know, really help people to understand ‘oh, maybe that's what I can use for next time’.
Matthew
Thank you. Lisa, is anything you want to come in on that?
Lisa
Yeah, I was just going to say that the sort of inbuilt mechanisms you know that I would, you know, you're driving to work or you're driving in between visits or you're walking to the meeting room, you know, and they're all thinking times aren't they, and I think going back to what we were saying earlier about you know, our working day is feeling very different. You know, you're working at home primarily for a lot of people they're kind of, there's not those natural breaks in your day that you would use or I would use you know, to think about either the visit that's coming up or the meeting that I’ve just been in, whatever that was, you think about it you kind of, you mull it over in your mind don't you, you reflect on it and those have, those have kind of disappeared and instead of those now you have additional phone calls or team meetings or you know Teams meetings or you know, however you do it in the areas that you work and all too often I think the days get blocked up.
I think what we need to do is set some time aside for us and for our teams to be able to do that. I think that you know, where I work so we have an hour and we try and say to people you know, encourage people to take, there's an hour and a half a month, which doesn't sound like a lot in additional to training et cetera you know, but for people to reflect and to take that time to write up a reflective piece or to do some CPD, and I think again it's time but I think we have to try and prioritise that as well, as best as we can and support people to do that.
Matthew
Yeah, and I think that the travel times are a really important point to recognise that that has shifted hugely hasn't it, over the last 12 months and I, I've always had to travel a lot. I’ve previously worked in Cumbria, it’s a huge county and getting anywhere, it takes a long time and I benefited a lot from that sometimes, just that reflection after a visit or after the meeting. I got a lot of benefit from that but then in this role, spending a lot of time traveling around the North West, that was where I listened to all my podcasts absolutely, I could spend time, I would, headphones on, I could just focus on that and then for me that was learning, that was development, that was CPD and I think I would then reflect on what that was and what that meant for my role, and all those kind of things but lockdown happened, that disappeared and I’m terrible at giving myself time through the day, I’m really bad at it, but I try to carve out a little bit of time and I try and again, headphones on or sometimes just go for a walk, I can just get out the house and learn and then come back and then that's a piece of CPD for me, but I think it's sometimes just that conscious effort isn't it, that conscious switch, that mindset of ‘I'm going to do this because it's really important to do it’ and carve out that separate time, like you've both said.
Do you think there's, what ways can yourselves both in your own rolls but also Social Work England, encourage social workers to think creatively about CPD, to have these different ideas about what it can be and what it means and have that flexibility, is there, is there ways that we can all do that do you think? Louise?
Louise
Yeah, a way in which Social Work England could like help social workers to you know, do CPD and think more creative could be I think, I don't know if you can do this but having you know, regional leads that could maybe come out to staff conferences and I know within my local authority we have a soft conference at least 3 to 4 times a year where the whole children's social care is in one forum and we're basically talking about different things within social work. I think it would be quite good, if you could come to those conferences and maybe talk about CPD, give some good examples that you've seen that workers could use if they’re stuck to kind of like you know, a guideline to go through, but yeah I think just really seeing who works in Social Work England and how we can you know, incorporate CPD more into our practice might be quite helpful for us, because it's only, it's only been a year since we've had to do CPD so you know it might be quite helpful to kind of, you know, meet some of you in flesh of our you know a video forum maybe.
Matthew
Yeah, and we're more than happy to do that Louise, and that is, that forms a big part of the role of the regional engagement leads but anyone that's listening to this, you can find out who your regional engagement lead is on the Social Work England website and there's contact details for us all on there, and we're more than happy to engage with you in that way and attending, attend conferences like Louise said but also team meetings and just having those conversations with social workers and organisations around CPD, we're more than happy to do that, that forms a really big part of our role and so I do a lot of that across the North West but we have regional engagement leads that cover, that cover all of England so we're, yeah contact details are all on the website and we're more than happy to come out and have those conversations.
Lisa, is there any points that you wanted to come in on there?
Lisa
I keep saying to people about looking at Twitter, I’m a big fan of Twitter at the minute, particularly in the last year which really benefited me. Louise, are you on Twitter? I don't know if you are.
Louise
I'm not but I'm thinking I might join on now.
Lisa
I think you definitely need to, it's, I mean I think definitely over the last year I was on it for a long time and then kind of fell out of love with it really for no particular reason, and then certainly in the last year I’ve rediscovered it and I think you know, there are, there's blogs, there's webinars and I just want to mention you know, that you know there's, so Siobhan Mclean is, and Siobhan Mclean and the Social Work Student Connect I think, so I think that was set up in in response to social work students needing to connect. hence the title I think, but they do a webinar every Wednesday evening, and I'm not being paid by Siobhan or them either, but I do think, I do think it's worth a plug. It's a brilliant, they're brilliant webinars and they're all on YouTube as well so you can catch up after that. They've done like 47 or 48 or something like that I think, it is about a wide range of topics So, for me you know, although you know, that that's another opportunity as well, to look at and to learn from other people and to hear about practice.
Matthew
And I think that the Twitter, Twitter's interesting, isn't it? It was always something I shied away from as a frontline social worker, I was never on Twitter and I shy away from social media in my personal life to be honest, it terrifies us. I'm on Twitter as a as a regional engagement lead and I think the, it's a really useful platform for just knowing things, sharing information, I think there's that, you can, there's a sort of small group of social workers that are active on Twitter isn't it, but I think it's, it is a good way to just know what's going on and tap into different resources.
Lisa
And you network with people that you, that you wouldn't ordinarily network with you know. they said you know, whether they, that's legal folk or you know, so people from a mental health you know, whether that's you know, lived experience or who work in that field or just a wide variety really can't, you know, public health, all sorts of stuff really. It's just, it's just a little minefield, I think, of great opportunities.
Matthew
So, I'm going to come to the sort of closing question I suppose to both of you, and it's what one piece of CPD have you done that has stood out for you? Is there one piece that you can think of that would maybe be a bit of a light bulb moment for another social worker? Louise, I'll come to you first.
Louise
I would say there was one CPD that I did last year, it was a case I had in care proceedings and what stood out to me was just the importance of building effective relationships with my families because that, in this particular case, that was what really helped to empower the parents to make those positive changes to promote safety for their children and with this particular case, the parents lost a lot of trust in social workers, so me coming, come into the scenario mid proceedings was a bit like ‘you're going to be like another social worker, aren't you?’ but within that CPD I was really able to reflect upon how I was able just to listen to them, listen to their past experiences of losing trust in people, and just having that empathy and working with them on ways in which we could agree together, and how we could work together to make those plans that they were, you know, in agreement with to make sure that their kids were protected and kept safe from harm, so yeah, so just reflecting upon that particular case really helped me to understand it's important to build relationships with families and even though it can be tricky at times, just taking up time to listen to people is important and exploring relationship based theories really helps me with that CPD.
Matthew
Yeah, fantastic, that's a great answer Louise. Lisa, over to you.
Lisa
So, mine's not from actual practice, this is again, as an example of something we were talking about earlier, something that I have watched.
So, this was probably about a year ago so Professor Laura Serrant’s, her inaugural lecture, I don't know if anyone's seen that and it's about silence and she tells stories about silence, so her experiences as, in her words, a black female nurse academic and it starts in 1982 when she was completing her nurse training, so I think it's just something I would highly recommend, it was very, very powerful, probably I think because they realise stories about inequalities, life experiences that's in education and training and I think that then raises questions about fitness to practise for different kinds of professionals, as well as social workers. Again, I don't want to elaborate too much because I'll give it away, but I think it's, I think it's a really powerful piece. It's approximately an hour long and it just it just brings home a lot of stuff I think really, you know as, and you know, and she gets a standing ovation and I don't remember ever being in a lecture theatre that got a standing ovation, and I think that kind of speaks volumes really. Well worth a look and a view of that definitely.
Matthew
Fantastic and yeah, but I think both your examples there are really good examples of how one piece of reflection can then prompt lots of other learning and lots of other development, and thinking about things in different ways, I think that's a, they're both really good examples of how CPD can then become this sort of bigger learning activity that you undertake on the back of something, on the back of one thing and I think that's a, that's really important.
Lisa
I think for me, it's about making it part of everyday life so you watch something. it can be a TV programme, it can be something that you've read, and if you can reflect on it and put it to good use then I think we need to get better at recognising that CPD.
That is a great note to end on, Lisa – you have summarised this whole conversation much better than I, than I could have. So once again just thank you both for your time, I've thoroughly enjoyed just having a conversation with both of you and I think it's been really beneficial. This will probably form a piece of CPD for myself and can do for both of you Lisa and Louise, and anyone that's listened to this, this can form a piece of CPD, reflecting on what has been discussed today and the impact that that can have on you and your role, I think is something that hopefully will come out of this for some people.
So again, thank you for your time everybody and yeah, I really enjoyed this.
Lisa
Well thank you, nice to meet you Louise and Matthew. Thanks everybody.
Louise
Thank you – nice to meet you all.
Matthew
Thanks again to Lisa and Louise for joining us and sharing their experiences and understanding of recording CPD.
If you enjoyed the discussion and would like to continue the conversation with us, you can follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn using the hashtag #ThisIsSocialWorkPod to share your thoughts. You can also find out more about the professional standards on our website.
Join us for our next episode we'll be talking about standard 5 and what it means to act safely, respectfully and with professional integrity.
Thanks again and see you soon.
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In this episode, regional engagement lead Matthew explores professional standard 3, be accountable for the quality of my practice and the decisions I make, with social workers George and Calum.
George and Calum share their unique experiences of social work practice, decision making and safeguarding in different social work settings. They also discuss the impact of COVID-19 on their practice, their teams, and the people they support.
Join the conversation using #ThisIsSocialWorkPod on our website and follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn.
Transcript
Matthew
Welcome to This Is Social Work. I'm Matthew, Social Work England's regional engagement lead for the North West of England.
In this series we're focusing on the professional standards, the 6 standards all social workers must know, understand and be able to do as part of their role. The professional standards are specialist to the social work profession and apply to social workers in all roles and settings across England.
In this episode, we're focusing on standard 3 which is ‘be accountable for the quality of my practice and the decisions I make’. Today I'll be joined by George who's a lead forensic social worker and Calum who is an adult safeguarding team manager. They share their own experiences of decision making, particularly in relation to safeguarding and discuss how social workers identify risk indicators and cope with the demand that this places on their own wellbeing.
We hope you enjoy the conversation.
So we're going to make a start and make a start with some introductions so George, can I come to you first, and just ask you to introduce yourself and to give a bit of background as well, about your social work career.
George
Okay so my name's Georgina Adams. I've been qualified as a social worker since 1993 so it feels a very long time and for all of my social work career, I've worked in Devon, for Devon county council.
My background predominantly has been around children's social work so the first kind of 25, 30 years of my career I’ve worked in social work whether as a social worker, as a team manager, chairing child protection meetings or as an independent reviewing officer. I've also worked for a safeguarding board, I've worked there for a few years, and managed the child protection service in Devon for a few years.
As well as, part of that career actually, I'll go back a bit really, I worked for the emergency duty team and I was predominantly a children's social worker but I also did my AMHP training so I did some work there working as an AMHP in mental health services, but I've taken quite a different career change very recently in that I’ve become the lead social worker for the secure services here at Langdon hospital in Devon. So we, we are a secure hospital with roughly about 110 patients, all male patients, and we have 4 wards that are medium secure wards, 2 wards which are low and one ward which is open, and I also have as part of my role across the secure directorate although I manage 7 social workers here in the hospital, we have social workers that are also working in our community forensic team and our liaison and diversion team, and I take a responsibility, not for line managing them, but providing some professional supervision when needed, and also making sure that their social work voice is heard across some of those agencies where they're working particularly whether in the police, and we're also making sure that their CPD is up to date and they're thinking about some of those social work issues, they come to some of our forums and come to our training so although I only kind of line manage 7 social workers in a hospital, I have a kind of broader role across the secure directorate here.
Matthew
Perfect, thanks George. Calum, can I come to you?
Calum
So my name's Calum Titley, I work for Stockton Borough council. So, I qualified as a, as a social worker back in 2009 and I’ve worked for Stockton Borough council ever since.
Prior to doing my social work degree, I just want to give you a bit of background about myself so my kind of interest in working with people and you know, empowering people to kind of achieve and you know, contribute to society came from doing 2 years volunteering in America where I was living and working with adults with learning disabilities, and it was that experience that really kind of demonstrated to me you know, just regarding kind of human worth and the fact that you know, we've all got strengths that we can contribute to society, so that really kind of shaped my career in like I said wanting to work within social care, and once that experience came to an end I found myself applying to kind of study social work.
Throughout my studying I did statutory placements within children's services so I did a placement within a child protection team, but my last placement was with adult services here in Stockton and since that time, I was lucky enough to become employed as a social worker in an adult assessment team before then developing through, you know, being able to do my practice education awards, my best interests assessors award.
I then transitioned into our safeguarding area and since working in the adult safeguarding team, I've been the team manager of the adult safeguarding team here in Stockton for the last 7 years. I started as a team manager in the, in the safeguarding team right when the Care Act was implemented so you know, straight away I had that responsibility along,with kind of the other managers and senior management, around embedding the changes into practice that came from the Care Act.
I was actually successful in now being appointed as the dedicated safeguarding lead officer, which is going to be a little bit of a change in that I won't be directly responsible for managing the day-to-day operational practice here in Stockton but I’ll be more responsible for the work that is shaped by our adult safeguarding board and the assurance work that's required as part of being part of that board, as well as the embedding the learning from things like safeguarding adult reviews etc. So my role is going to be slightly different moving forward but still very much within the adult safeguarding area.
What I would say is you know, I live here in Stockton, I'm proud to work for Stockton, they've invested in me and you know, I’m like I said I’m proud to serve the people of this borough.
Matthew
Yeah I mean, similar to Calum I only ever worked for one local authority, so before Social Work England I only ever worked for Cumbria County Council and was really proud to work for Cumbria County Council, it’s the area I grew up in, area where I still currently live, and it's only now that I stepped out to work with Social Work England that I’ve made that move away from an authority in an area that I’m really proud of so certain similarities there.
So today's focus is really professional standard 3, which is ‘be accountable for the quality of my practice and the decisions I make’. Now professional standard 3 is the biggest, it's got 15 points.
For me professional standard 3 is a lot of the sort of, day-to-day work that social workers do because it talks about things like working within legal and ethical frameworks, it talks about evidence-based practice, it talks about assessments, talks about working within multi-disciplinary teams, talks about record keeping, so that's the kind of, for me, for a lot of social workers that might be listening to this, is their day-to-day work.
Standard 3 also talks a lot about risk, talks a lot about risk assessments and responding quickly to dangerous situations, so when we were thinking about standard 3 we had to narrow down the 15 points otherwise this podcast would be a day long, but that's why we sort of narrowed it down to that sort of safeguarding perspective, which is why we've reached out to yourselves who've got that experience because I think, and we've already started to talk about it a little bit.
Social workers continue to take the lead in safeguarding in both adults and children’s, I think the landscape's changed and I think legislation's changed significantly over the last few years. Calum I’m the same, thinking about the, what the Care Act has done for safeguarding and adults, I think that was a significant change for the whole system but I think it's an incredibly demanding area of practice, it's a really challenging area of practice but I think it's an incredibly important one.
It's also potentially a really high profile area of practice as well and it fits into the idea that social workers’ primary role is around public protection and for us as a regulator, that is also our primary role. We have been established with a primary role around public protection, and we also want to raise the standards of social workers across England so that people receive the best possible support when they might need it, and that's our role and function as a regulator and could ultimately, society's decided really that social work as a profession carries significant risk, carries that significant importance, that it should be a regulated profession, again that’s why Social Work England is in existence and why social work has been a regulated profession for a number of years now, and I think that helps sort of emphasise the importance of social work and the importance of the work that social workers do, but I think it also it shows that social workers, as social workers on a daily basis, have standards to meet and uphold but they also have got to comply with legislation and policy and guidance, and there's a lot there for social workers to understand. I think that's why your new role Calum, around embedding some of that in systems and embedding that in practices, those types of rules are really important to support social workers.
If we drill down a little bit more into the standard, 3.2 focuses around sort of, using information from a range of appropriate sources, including supervision, to inform assessments, to analyse risk, there's that word risk, and to make professional decisions and judgments.
And I think just coming to, and I’ll come to you first George, around what's your experience really around doing that because I think on paper that sounds really difficult – how do you absorb all that information to inform decision making and particularly, particularly over the last 12, 15 months that COVID has been here and I think that's shifted, how social workers have been able to do that.
George
Yeah, I suppose the thing that really jumped out at me was what you were saying about the need to balance, balance that public protection, you know. I work in a, in a secure hospital with patients and that's, it's quite a niche role isn’t it, working in a hospital, it's very, it's a very, very specialist role. Probably a lot of people don't really know what social workers do you know, in a, in a secure setting really because you know, essentially we are working with people, if you look at kind of you know, our prison, our male prison populations, there is that preponderance of childhood trauma and mental illness so the people in the hospital I work in you know, the patients that are here, patients or service users whichever, there's always a bit of a debate about which language to use really, you know are some of our most disadvantaged and oppressed and traumatised people that we're working with you know, every day but in the work here, what we're always thinking about, which is what forensic social workers do is about balancing that public protection because you know, some of our patients here have committed a very serious crime but also thinking about their own rights as service users, and we're also constantly trying to kind of, promote their quality of life, working in partnership with all the kind of professionals here.
It's really key here that multiple multi-disciplinary working is really, really key here as part of the work in terms of trying to help that kind of, recovery model because social workers here are that bridge into the, back into the community into you know, living outside of the hospital and it plays a key part of that, so we're there constantly assessing and managing risk every day. It's about assessing managing risk whether it's like, here in the hospital and how the hospital is managed and how patients are in the hospital, whether it's by patients going out into the community and being discharged into the community, when we're thinking about some of our Care Act responsibilities, also thinking all the time about the legislation that we work with and about our policy that we work with you know, it's very complicated trying to manage those legal frameworks and at the same time balancing protecting the rights of different people you know, whether it's our patients here, whether it's about the victims, whether it's like that public protection and whether it's about our you know, the family and friends that are, that are you know, are still part of our patients lives.
Matthew
Calum, are there any points that you wanted to pick up there or just sort of, coming in around your experience around that, about assessments I think because it is quite complex isn't it, and George has described a really complex picture there, but I think that that's a reality there's no getting away from, from the fact that there is complexity there and just sort of, your experience of that and how you've maybe navigated that.
Calum
Yeah, I almost feel as though social workers, they're in effect, need to be a walking encyclopaedias these days, the amount of knowledge that they need you know, whilst I think you know, social workers have, are very skilled in perhaps how they communicate with service users you know, how they apply that person-centered approach, that strengths-based approach to their practice, about having conversations, it's all the other stuff around that that they have to learn within the profession in order to meet the statutory duties that the legislations hold, the local guidance that might be applied, for example in my area of safeguarding, all the guidance that's produced under our safeguarding adults board, understanding the roles of partner agencies and what part they can play in in the system, it can be a complete minefield at times you know.
The core message I try and deliver to my staff is about defensible decision making. As long as you know, if you're, if your decisions are defensible, even if that decision ends up being the wrong decision or you know, as long as you're able to defend it at that point in time, that is a key message I always try and give to it to my staff. You know we've got the 6 core principles that we work to as well, so we try and embed them into our practice as well you know, and you know some of them principles are a second nature to the social workers, particularly empowerment you know, we might be dealing with risk and working towards how we can keep that person safer or how we can you know, risk manage the situation they're facing but it's all, it's trying to ensure that we don't necessarily create dependencies and do the doing it's you know, it's very much about I think you know, good outcomes to me is where we've been able to empower someone to take control.
Some of the other principles, particularly like the partnership arrangements, we can sometimes see many dilemmas in practice particularly when you've got kind of like, conflicting opinions between agencies you know, there's certain agencies that might be more risk adverse than others and it's how you kind of balance all that but at the same time, it's still able to work together for the people that we're serving.
George
What it really is key for me here in this hospital is, do you know, that we are very, it's the stuff that you're just talking about Calum, about but that being very person-centered, talking about that empowerment very much here, as you can imagine in a hospital, we've got a very strong medical model here you know, and about being able to recognise about you know, what's strong about people rather than what's wrong with people and really recognising that actually people, even though they're in a, in a secure setting, that actually still there's still a lot of good things there that can happen.
I was just thinking question things you were saying about how you have to, notice how much you have to juggle in terms of your knowledge isn't it. It's really clear that isn't it, about when you think about the legislation there are so many, aren't there, bits of legislation that we're always quite, trying to juggle at the same time and that's where supervision is so key isn't it, about trying to really help with that some of that reflective practice isn't it to think about some of the decisions that we're making, to think about some of those areas of risk, isn't it, and really using some of that evidence-based stuff that you were talking about Calum isn't it, to really think about those defensible decisions that we were making.
Matthew
In all of this we've got the policy, the guidance, the legislation, all those things that we've all been describing but at the centre has to be a person, and there is a person isn't there, and I think whether that's a child or an adult I think always remembering that, I think is so important for social work practice, and I think that's the relationship based approach that I'm, I've always been really passionate about, it's essentially why I come into social work practice and I think there's, there's a danger isn't it, that when there's all this going on there's all this policy, guidance, legislation, there's all this risk, there's all this pressure from other professionals, pressure from families, pressure from communities, pressure from society, all this going on, to forget that there's a person right in the middle and that's the most important person to build a relationship with and build your decision making around.
George
And that's why I think the, I mean having come from background in children's and coming into adult’s mental health, it's been really fantastic to look at the adult safeguarding and the changes that have been made in terms of the legislation around there and that really, about making that, making safeguarding personal isn't it and actually having those conversations with people, and it's something I think that we I think, it's one of the things that social workers do very well is bringing it back to the person isn't it, and I think because children's work so differently, whether you know the child is that focus and things about significant harm or what's in their best interests, and coming into adults where you're actually thinking about balanced rights and responsibilities aren't you, needs and risks and keeping it person centred isn't it, is a different approach to have I think.
It's a constant battle here in the hospital to be kind of saying, but actually what does the person want, do you know, what do they want from their safeguarding which for me is, but it's very different I think really.
Calum
It is and I’m, you know, I'm a strong advocate for the you know, making safeguarding personal as that overarching principle of safeguarding practice because I actually saw practice prior to the Care Act when it was under No Secrets guidance and it was very process driven, and I saw first hand situations where the adult’s voice became lost and it was about doing you know, safeguarding doing as opposed to working with and keeping that person at the centre and I think it's so important that we keep you know, that person-centred aspect to our practice where the person is at the middle, where we are working towards their desired outcomes because you know, sometimes even if they are presenting risks you know, we I think need to be getting better at applying the positive risk taken to practice and recognising that you know, under the Care Act there's a duty to promote wellbeing but there'll be occasions where someone's wellbeing potentially isn't impacted by what they're experiencing and therefore you've got that, at times, that ethical dilemma where you're balancing kind of, rights under the human rights act for example, so that you know, respecting what they're telling you and what they want to happen, I think the making safeguarding personal approach that has enabled us to kind of, do that more efficiently.
Matthew
Did you feel a shift Calum, when that, when that was introduced because I was still in practice, I was working in Cumbria at the time, when the Care Act was introduced and I felt a shift, I felt some, the system maybe took a bit of a step back but I think individual social workers maybe took a step back and thought ‘let's do things differently, let's think about it in a different way’.
Calum
Yeah, I would agree. I think there was almost an immediate shift but with that being said you know, it has taken I think a number of years for us to be able to kind of evidence it well in practice you know, when I say evidence well you know, because we work under a statutory safeguarding board, we ultimately have to provide assurance to into our kind of, local safeguarding adults board and that is, that includes data, that includes audits, multi-agency audits and over time we've been able to, I think, develop our practice to be able to evidence that better but I believe that you know, it’s always been happening but we're much more equipped with being able to, I think, evidence it now in practice so then when it comes to talking about your defensible decision making for example, the fact that we are able to evidence that better now, means that I think we're better protected as a statutory agency because as you, as you alluded to Mathew, it's the one area of practice when you kind of refer to safeguarding that when something does go wrong, you've got that safeguard and adult review duty, as is the same with the kind of serious case reviews, when you're kind of talking about children you know, it's the one area of practice that you are expected to potentially look at what went wrong and learn from that, so I always think that there's this, there is an underlying fear at times but coming back to what I said, if you're able to put it all together, evidence the principles, work to the legislation, quote that you work into the legislation, then for me it combined it brings about that defensible decision in your practice.
George
For us here you know, although social workers take you know, a lead in some of the safeguarding, it is also, it's very much, isn't it, everybody's responsibility. The challenge here is to bring everybody on board with that and recognising what abuse is you know, and I think we've come a really long way, made some real improvements about, everybody kind of taking that on board and recognising that actually doing work around safeguarding is, I say, is everyone's responsibility but it's also, it's really necessary and it's not just someone else's responsibility you know, it's for all of us and just valuing the importance of it and not being scared of it, thinking you know, what happens now if I raise something is an issue because you know, it can end up, I think, in a kind of, the environment that I'm in, just feeling like it's one profession's responsibility so we’ve got to work really hard to make it feel, that we all recognise when there are safeguarding issues and there is still, I think, a lot of challenges around that because you know, you know if there is a safeguarding issue between 2 patients and somebody maybe, for example, might be you know, something happens and somebody might have to change a ward because of it, we have to be mindful still of the other patients that are still around you know, it's, you can't just move somebody and expect that the safeguarding issue has gone because it's still, it will still be there won't it, but may impact on other patients, but also recognising that the person that might be the you know, the alleged, the, you know, the alleged person that's done the abuse, that they still have their own care and support needs as well isn't it, so you're constantly having to think about those things as well, it's not just a kind of, linear process is it, it's much more complicated than that.
Calum
It is. Like you said, you know, safeguarding is everyone's business. We might hold that lead duty under the Care Act and section 42 of the Care Act you know, we are the lead agency but the way I apply that is yes we might take a coordinated approach but again, coming back to the principles, one of the core principles is partnership working and sometimes to make someone safer or achieve that person's desired outcome, we might have to link in and use legislation that falls under housing or falls under environmental health or you know, we might be heavily reliant on the powers that the police are able to apply so you know, I again, I totally agree with what you're saying there.
I think sometimes as a social worker who might hold the lead duty, it can sometimes come across that they're the sole person responsible for it and we need to be prepared to challenge, because actually that's not, that's not the case.
Matthew
And I think we often rely on other agencies to identify and alert us to the risk, and I think that's quite it's challenging isn't it – identifying a risk or identifying a potential safeguarding need is a challenge isn't it and I think there's a skill there in social workers working with those other agencies to understand the safeguarding process, to understand what risk means, to understand some of the potential warnings that may be there, that need to be maybe investigated.
George
We've done some work around what the difference is between trading and exploitation because it's you know, things can become I think normalised on a hospital ward and so people need to be constantly aware of some of those things. That's why supervision is really good to kind of talk about in some of the kind of reflective practice discussions that we have as teams to kind of remind ourselves actually what is happening there, is that actually about exploitation, is there some grooming here, you know we're constantly having to have some of those discussions to remind us actually, this could be a safeguarding issue you know.
So when you talk about somebody in safeguarding, having capacity to understand the risk or harm you know, sometimes people may not, because they may not realize and then recognize that they've been groomed by somebody for example.
Matthew
Yeah and it's very complex, it's really complex isn't it and I think self-neglect is another area that's really complex, the Care Act brought that under that safeguarding umbrella.
Calum, I’m keen to get your thoughts on that because you'll have experienced a lot of that.
Calum
Yeah and obviously you know, it's not that self-neglect didn't happen prior to the Care Act, it was just obviously you know, put into legislation as a an abuse category.
What I, what I think that's bought about Matthew is an element of subjectiveness because it's the, it's the one category that is isn't done to by someone else, it's around that person and their behaviours and you know, how they're living and at times, the choosing to kind of, make potentially unwise decisions for example, and what you find particularly from a partner agency perspective is you do get that degree of subjectiveness, where things that to me as a social worker, where it's about wellbeing and strengths-based and person-centered, you get a lot of things labelled as self-neglect that for me as a social worker isn't self-neglect, and I think the approach we take here in Stockton aligns itself to the principle of proportionality.
You know, we always attempt a care management approach first, where we offer assessment you know, look to put services in for that person because what we found is that there was things being referred in as self-neglect, where a partner agency was saying that there's all these risks, but then the actual person themselves was wanting support and it and it was presenting itself as self-neglect because they just didn't have the right support in place.
Matthew
That label then can kick-start some quite immediate action can’t it, which in some circumstances isn't what that person wants and I think sometimes taking that step back and having that more preventative approach is really key, isn't it?
George
And I think neglect is always a really tricky issue isn't it, whether you're in children’s, but I just was interested in Calum about how subjective it can be, can’t it?
Calum
Yeah, and you know, and cases where you know, self-neglect is present and from a risk perspective it's you know, it's clearly been identified as something that we need to kind of, I don't want to say do something about but you know, in terms of working with the person at times there's the need to build a relationship over a long period of time before you're able to make any inroads in being able to support that person and change the kind of situation for the better.
More often than not it's not an area of practice that you're going to be able to address overnight. You can look to work in partnership, to potentially reduce some of the risks immediately but in order to make that ingrained change so that person's wellbeing is going to continue to be promoted into the future, that takes a long time to achieve.
George
That's interesting because that goes back to what Matthew was saying right at the beginning about the relational work isn't it, of social work and about how important that is isn't it?
And you're right, that there is no quick fix and sometimes I think there's some pressure from other agencies to have a quick fix but actually those things do take time, and if we are going to follow some of those principles you know from the Care Act about you know, about empowering people isn't it and proportionality and thinking about those isn't it, working in partnership, that takes time and that's where the skills of social workers are really key, aren't they, about you know, the skills that they have in terms of, kind of, non-judgmental isn't it and having that empathy and that real genuine working relationship to build something, to bring about some change isn't it, positive change that the person wants.
Calum
Definitely you know, how you referred to kind of social workers there George is exactly you know, I 100% support that because you know, they don't, not necessarily seeing it as a problem, they'll still for me focus on strengths and you know, still come at it from a perspective of you know, trying to kind of empower that person, to see them strengths and contribute to their society etc.
George
Yeah and that's where I think working here is a, is a challenge isn't it because we are working every day with you know, with patients that are in our, in a secure setting and thinking about them being discharged in the community and it is that real.
As you said right that very beginning Mathew, balancing that public protectionis and also the rights of families and victims, and thinking about the map of the public protection and how you manage all of that, but still maintain holding on to those you know, the individual rights of that person, about what's best for them, because what we hope here is that people can go back into society and make a contribution, and go back to leading you know, an ordinary life.
Calum
We often refer to putting services in place for people. Well you know, I’m a firm believer that the response from a social worker is a service in its own right because of you know, because of the values that they can offer and upheld, and what they you know, want to do in terms of, like I said empowerment and supporting the person to kind of make change and contribute to society.
You know, the amount of information that a social worker might be able to offload onto a person and signposting and linking them in with their communities etc. for me, that is a service in its own right and I don't think it's always seen like that.
Matthew
And I think sometimes the power of that relationship between social worker and person I think can offer lots can’t it? It can offer, and if you build that relationship over a period of time, I think people that I’ve worked with in the past and felt that I was able to manage crisis in a different way because I’d built relationship up with that person, and been able to support them through that time without chucking lots of services in, you know what I mean? And I think that approach, the input that a social worker can offer I think can offer real power and value to that person.
George
I've just recruited 3 or 5 new social workers who have been used to being working out in the community and now suddenly are, and they've been working at homes under teams I mean, they've been you know, every day they've been you know, 18 months they've been in offices and they're now coming into a hospital, you see as a hospital we're open all the time, and they are coming in, which they're really enjoying actually being you know, being part of a, being part of a team again and coming into work. I mean that's been for them, one of the joys of working in hospitals, coming back to real face-to-face work with people every day, they're coming in and can build those relationships with those patients and service users you know, every day it's about building some of those relationships but at the same time they're having some quite challenging conversations with patients, about what that might be about, some of their insight into what's happened, what's, what is available out there in the community you know, how we're going to balance you know, some of their, meeting their needs but with that, with the balancing the risk with other people out there being on the ward every day, I was just interested in, about the, about the I think it was the point 12 isn't it, in the standard around, about dangerous situations and we talk about that quite a lot, about going on the ward and about how you have to not be complacent, being on the ward you've built a relationship with a service user on the ward but you're always still mindful of the risk that they may present, and we, you have to you know, you could you know, be quite easy to think well I built that relationship I don't feel there's going to be any harm but you know, people here are you know, unwell. Some of their behaviour is unpredictable so, but they're constantly kind of juggling some of those risks actually on the wards on a day-to-day basis.
Matthew
That's a seamless link George, because that was my next point to bring up because we can't talk about safeguarding, without talking about the crisis and the dangerous elements that comes with safeguarding referrals and safeguarding work and safeguarding investigations, and all the things that come around it.
Sometimes the impact that can have on the social worker's own wellbeing and I’m really keen to get people's thoughts on that, around how you've managed it in the past but I think how that might have changed over the last 12, 15 months where maybe social workers haven't had that office space to come back to and reflect and debrief. I’m keen to get your thoughts on it.
Calum
We've slowly started to integrate back into some office-based work. We are moving toward a corporate stance in the, in the near future where we're going to have a split between office-based working again, but also continuing to work from home and you know, in terms of the office space working, practitioners are very keen to have that and have that coming together because the importance of peer support and being able to offload on one another and get support around particularly a challenging circumstance you know, whilst we've supported each other over the likes of Microsoft Teams and you know, we've been able to make use of virtual technology like we're using now, that does not replace the kind of social contact between peers and you know, how important that is in terms of being able to manage the emotions that the job can kind of provide.
You talked about earlier, about the impact of COVID. Safeguarding hasn't stopped, we talk about responding to dangerous situations where there's risks etc. you know, there has been some partner agencies that we work in partnership with that scaled back, that didn't provide a service where they were going out to see people. My perspective whilst we had to be very careful about, you know, our own safety, our own kind of health and wellbeing, we still needed to kind of respond to safeguarding concerns you know, how can you judge a situation over a phone call, you can't always, you don't know whether they could be presenting duress, you don't get that visual perception where you're able to pick up on potentially other forms of abuse or neglect etc.
So you know we very much from a, you know, people often ask me you know, how has your practice changed during COVID, well in all honesty it didn't.
Matthew
Yeah and I suspect you're, that you're the same George, I suspect your practice didn't change?
George
When I kept, when I came to the hospital it was kind of mid-COVID and so for us, the social workers are coming into the hospital you know, most days they're coming in if they're writing tribunal reports and things, and some of those things obviously they would stay at home but for the most part, the social workers here are, are on the wards.
I suppose the differences for them being is they're all in scrubs and goggles and masks, and that's quite different in itself, coming down onto wards you know just even just in terms of you just present a bit of a barrier I think, when you're having conversations with people.
But what I’d also say is in terms of the stresses in the hospital you know, when we've had periods of lockdown where patients haven't been able to have as much contact with family and friends, haven't been able to have any leave you know, that can present quite a challenge you know, with behaviour on the wards because you know ,people obviously are very stressed if they're having to isolate and stay in the hospital so that can you know, you know bring some safeguarding issues into the hospital I think really, as is with staff. It's very very difficult you know, when you cannot go out isn't it?
Calum
It's interesting you refer to that George as an impact that you faced within the hospital because from a safeguarding perspective, when kind of lockdowns were implemented we certainly saw spikes in kind of like physical incidents between residents in shared care settings so obviously with things like I’d say provisions and stuff shutting down, it meant that routines etc. had all changed and we did see spikes in terms of incidents being reported as a safeguarding concern.
George
Yeah it you know, it's a significant challenge isn't it, when people can't go out, their routines have changed significantly aren't they and they are in a hospital where they can't leave isn't it, and although we've done lots of stuff about you know, the Teams calls with family and friends you know, using the internet to kind of you know, to ensure that there is contact, it's clearly not the same isn't it, if you are used to your family coming in to visit but we weren't able to allow families and friends to come in, and those kind of, that's the thing is that we know those support networks are what keeps people's mental health generally you know, you know helps your wellbeing doesn't it, when you are seeing family and friends, and you’re getting out and doing things isn't it, that's what really helps your mental wellbeing.
Not to mention the impacts on the staff you know, who are struggling, well staff work really hard to keep everybody safe, we need to keep our patients safe and the biggest risk for the patients is actually us, the staff bringing COVID in, it's a significant challenge still.
Matthew
And you've touched on it a few times George, around just the importance of good supervision throughout this and beyond, the importance of good supervision and social work is never going to change but I think particularly through COVID, and I know it's changed, it's been online, it's been through Teams and Zoom, but I think and not just that good quality support for social workers to help navigate everything, do you know what I mean?
George
Calum was talking about the peer support and I would say here definitely as well because for me, I've got, each social worker in on a ward and I think my normal experience working in a social work team is you're all in a room together aren't you, and you're sharing the work, you're sharing the knowledge, policies, procedure you know, some of the difficult things and complexities and you've got that peer support to manage it. Here it's one social worker per ward so you have a responsibility to have that social work voice on a ward so that peer support outside of that is really, really important.
We have some social work forums that really help us with some of that.
Calum
Yeah we, we've you know, we've introduced a number of forums in terms of being able to support our staff you know, ranging from reflective supervision sessions where kind of, groups of people can come together to kind of, reflect on different areas of practice but you know, I you know, I'm a firm believer that that supervision is an ever occurring thing, it isn't, it isn't just something that's a protected 2 hours every fortnight or every of every 4 weeks, it's an ever occurring thing and I definitely try and deliver that message to the staff I support.
And it's not just the supervision that I’m able to provide, it's the supervision for me also includes that support from others, the peers, that there has been an impact on some of that in terms of yes, we can communicate via Teams but it just doesn't replace that face-to-face contact just you know ,coming to and from an office where you were able to kind of reflect and unwind before you enter back into your kind of, home life. You know that for me, that's a big impact and I firmly believe that that is something that has impacted almost everyone that I certainly manage at some point is that, that work and home life separation.
Matthew
And I think it's such an interesting point to make, and I think that I was just thinking there, reflecting on my own practice because I only ever worked in Cumbria which is a really rural county and I spent a lot of my time traveling, so I would I would go and see one person then I'd have to travel 45 minutes to go and see another person, that 45 minutes was incredibly valuable to sort of think about what happened, think about the things that I needed to do, think about the decision making, thinking about the people I needed to talk to and without that, and I'm the same, I’ve worked at home now for since March and I finish work, I open that door and I'm back to being a dad.
Calum
Yeah.
Matthew
So if you were to talk to social work students about safeguarding, what would be the one piece of advice you would give?
Calum
Don't be scared to make a decision. Keep the person at the centre of your practice at all times, focus on their strengths. Whilst you might be dealing with any concern where risk has presented itself, don't see that as a problem. I think like I said, it's around promoting wellbeing and keeping that person at the centre and ensuring that your decision making is defensible you know. Work to them kind of, core principles, you won't go far wrong. Yes you'll be stressed, prepare to be stressed but that's the nature of the beast in, in this in this field of work and I think it's really important that we're able to build some emotional resilience to the, to the stuff that we're, that we're faced with at times.
George
Well I suppose that the one overarching thing is about keeping that being, which is what Calum’s already said, about being person-centred isn't it but I suppose it's a bit of a reminder of some of that stuff around, about recording. I would say make sure that you have, what you're doing is evidence-based, that you've got a good rationale for what you're doing and you're recording what you can do because what we all know in anything, when you know, when things go wrong and people look at the paperwork even if you've done it, if it's not recorded, it hasn't happened has it, so there's something about being, recording it and I would say also really think about using some of those resources, keeping your CPD up to date and you know, we are an evidence-based, critical thinking you know, profession aren't we and so you have to constantly be holding that in mind I think.
But I use Twitter all the time, that’s the key thing I would say, go on Twitter would be my key thing because actually you can really keep up to date with all the latest research and stuff that's going on, because thinking does change.
You’ll love this Matthew, I'm constantly saying to my team ‘don't wait until November to update your CPD’ and we introduce it in our team meeting, to keep your people's learning up to date, for people to bring something that's current in research, constantly keeping your thinking up to date I think really would be a key message for me.
Matthew
And the one that I’m going to add in is around a decision it doesn't have to just be made in isolation by yourself as an individual social worker. I think that's really important to always remember whatever stage of career you’re at, however experienced you are, link in to other colleagues, link in to your manager, link in to other professionals, all those types of conversations will really help you to inform that decision. It's not about passing blame and it's not about, about but not wanting to make a decision yourself.
So to end I just a really big thank you to both of you.
Calum
No, it’s been a pleasure. I've really enjoyed it and I think I’ll be probably logging on to record this as a an example of CPD as well.
Matthew
We’ll end on a plug to upload some CPD, I'm more than happy with that.
Thanks again to George and Calum for joining us today and sharing their personal experiences of social work so openly.
If you enjoyed the discussion and would like to continue the conversation with us, you can follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn using the hashtag #ThisIsSocialWorkPod to share your thoughts. You can also find out more about the professional standards on our website.
Join us for our next episode where we’ll be talking about standard 4, maintaining my continuing professional development.
Thanks again and see you soon.
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In this episode, regional engagement leads Philippa, Matthew and Catherine explore professional standard 2 – establish and maintain the trust and confidence of people. They discuss their personal experiences of building trust and confidence in their roles as social workers.
Catherine is also joined by National Advisory Forum member Ify and Derren, a young person with lived experience of social work. They share their experiences of building relationships with their social workers, and how communication plays a vital role throughout their involvement.
Join the conversation using #ThisIsSocialWorkPod on our website and follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn.
Transcript
Philippa
Hi, I'm Philippa, Social Work England's regional engagement lead for the South West of England. Welcome to This Is Social Work.
In this series, we're focusing on the professional standards - the 6 standards that social workers must know, understand and be able to do as part of their role. The professional standards are specialist to the social work profession and apply to social workers in all roles and settings across England. In this week's episode, we're focusing on standard 2 - establish and maintain the trust and confidence of people.
To kick off the conversation, I'm joined by Matthew, regional engagement lead for the North West, and Catherine, regional engagement lead for the North East, as we discuss our own personal experiences of building trust and confidence in our roles as social workers, and later in the episode Catherine is joined by National Advisory Forum member Iffy and Derren, a young person with lived experience of social work. they share their own experiences of establishing and building trust in social workers and how communication plays a vital role throughout their involvement. We hope you enjoy the conversation.
Catherine
I'm Catherine Witt and I'm one of the regional engagement leads for Social Work England and I’m joined by my 2 colleagues today - Matthew Devlin and Philippa Geddes.
For me this standard really represents who we are and what we are as a profession, and we aren't going to look at all elements of the standard – we're going to focus on 2.4 and 2.5, and 2.4 is ‘practise in ways that demonstrate empathy, perseverance, authority, professional confidence and capability, working with people to enable full participation in discussions and decision making’ and 2.5 is ‘actively listen to understand people, using a range of appropriate communication methods to build relationships’. And the reason why we've sort of picked those 2 out as being really important is linked, I think, to some of the evidence that we're getting about why concerns are being raised about social workers.
So in our fitness to practise process we are seeing that the majority of concerns that are raised with us are about communication and I think that's replicated in many other areas of social work. If you look at serious case reviews and different parts of activity, communication is always the thing that it boils down tom so we thought it would be really helpful just to focus in on that. The other element is about involving people in decisions about their lives and that comes up as a theme on a regular basis. I've been a children and family social worker for about 20 years and involving children and young people in the decisions, the massive decisions, that they make about their lives is something that they will constantly reflect on and come back to you, and feel on many occasions that they haven't been involved in those decisions and it is a real skill. It is very difficult because sometimes you're making very difficult decisions about children's lives that is not something that they want but is about protecting them. So those are my sort of, first thoughts,
I'm going to go to Matthew. Matthew, your thoughts on professional standard 2?
Matthew
I think for me particularly standard 2.4 and 2.5, it sits at the very top of what social work is about and essentially is the reason why I come into the profession. I come into the profession because I enjoy building relationships with people, I enjoy communicating with people but I think for every role that I've had in my career, so the 11 years I’ve been a social worker, I think the importance of building relationships, the importance of good communication, and the importance of transparent communication I think has started at the very top of, being positive in all those roles that I've had and I think and that's from being a frontline social worker, but now as a regional engagement lead, I think being able to communicate and build relationships is incredibly important.
It's a skill I think, it's a skill that you develop throughout your social work training whatever route that is. But I think it's a skill that you'll never stop developing as a social worker and I think I've learned a lot in my role now, as regional engagement lead, about how to maybe build relationships on that bigger scale I suppose.
Previously my practice was really focused on adults and predominantly learning disability and I think I felt I was skilled in building those relationships and using those relationships to have a positive impact on people's lives but I think learning how to do that across an area such as the North West and with the range of stakeholders that all the regional engagement leads work with, I think it really is really important for us but I just think for the sector generally and for the profession generally, building relationships just sits at the heart of everything that I’ve ever done in my social worker career. That sounds really grand doesn't it? But I think that that is the reality.
I think all the good that has come out of the things that I’ve done in the last 11 years has ultimately come from the relationships that I feel I’ve been able to do.
Catherine
Thanks Matthew. Philippa?
Philippa
Thanks Catherine.
I think I would absolutely echo what both of you have just said really and I think communication is absolutely at the forefront of being a social worker and I think, you know, it's really interesting Catherine that you shared some of the themes that come out of our fitness to practise concerns, and that communication is often referred to, and poor communication in particular.
And sometimes you know as a social worker myself I get really frustrated when I see evidence of poor communication and I absolutely appreciate that the sector's under a lot of strain, you know COVID and the pandemic have really kind of pushed the sector and the people we work with, you know, to the limit, but I feel really passionately that we should always be ensuring that we're doing our best to treat, to work with people to be showing, to be empathic and to kind of, ensuring that we're communicating the best we can, you know?
I think it's really important and it's the least we can do in many ways. I think being a children's social worker, having good communication, you know, sometimes we have to have uncomfortable conversations with people. There may be times where it's actually, you know. Part of the Children’s Act is about, kind of, the wishes and feelings of the child and ensuring that we work in partnership with parents, and I think it's really important. All that entails good communication.
There may be times when we have to make decisions or recommendations that may, you know, that families or children may not be in agreement with but I still think you can deliver and have difficult conversations with respect and humility. And absolutely, you know, that that difficult conversation can be done, you know, often parents will say to me just be honest to me, you know, don't you know.
Often the amount of times we hear that families and children don't understand why they have a social worker involved in their lives. Perhaps, you know, we listen to stories of care experienced people who don't even understand perhaps why they were even in care, or what their care history is, you know. If we can make sure we get good communication right, if people are included in in discussions and decisions around their lives and if we're, you know, making a really conscious effort to listen to people and really respond to their communication needs.
We use a lot of jargon in social work and some inappropriate language and I just think it's really important that we work hard and go that extra mile to try and make sure that people feel included and they understand, because you know sometimes we can think people understand but if we're not checking that out or really working hard to make sure they understand, or we're having that good, you know, developing those communication skills, you know, that's when people get upset – they get angry. And that often can lead to that level of complaints and concerns being raised of us. So I think it goes, you know, I'd absolutely agree with both of you – it goes to the heart of social work like you said Catherine and I think if we can get communication right it's difficult, you know.
And I have to say, you know, hands up I haven't always got it right, you know? And that's where the feedback, and that's where hearing the voice of people with lived experience is really important.
And I’m really pleased we've got two people today who are going to be telling us about what, you know, what good social work and communication, you know, has meant to them. Because hearing from those who've lived experienced absolutely then makes us as practitioners, as social workers, be, you know, be better and improve. And you know, it goes into sort of, the work of Social Work England about, you know, that co-production element and making sure that we're listening to all people from the sector, but in particular people with lived experience of social work.
Matthew
I think that listening is such an important one as well, isn't it? I think it's, sometimes when you're thinking about good communication you can just think of it in terms of that one way thing but I think that the listening bit's incredibly important.
I've always felt really privileged to sit in people's living rooms and listen to them talking about their struggles and their difficulties and their challenges and then working with those individuals to support them to make some of them changes but I think you're right, I think our roles as regional engagement leads, it's important for us to listen to the sector and again I feel incredibly privileged to get that opportunity – to listen to the sector, to listen to social workers, take that back in, take that insight back in and for us to have those discussions within the organisation, to hear what's happening in the sector and I think that's, listening for us now is really important isn't it? And I think it's really important for the organisation as well.
Catherine
I think communication can come in very different forms and just listening to people or being with them and being present with them and sometimes I think we get too bogged down in talking and being, as I say, being present is sometimes all you need to be. So understanding communication in all its forms and guises, and the right thing at the right time. And I think as social workers sometimes we get a wee bit frenetic about the talking and the problem solving, but you know good communication lets people go at their own pace and to really take control because we aren't going to be involved in their lives forever and having that, giving those people the support to be able to work on their own issues and solve some of their own problems, is really, really important.
Well I think that's a really good point and to bring Ify and Derren in to talk about their views and as people who've had social workers in their lives, and we're really grateful for them to spare their time and to join us and to give us their views.
I'm really delighted to introduce 2 really interesting people that have agreed to join us on this podcast today and so I’m going to start with Derren. Do you want to introduce yourself and just tell us how social workers have been involved in your life?
Derren
Hello, I'm Derren Hamill. I'm in a residential children's home and so that's where social workers are involved in my life.
Catherine
And how long have they been involved in your life Derren?
Derren
Pretty much all my life but not for the same reasons. So each time, so now it's obviously more to do with the fact that I’m section 20 on a voluntary order in care.
Catherine
Brilliant, that's great, so we'll maybe get to ask a few more questions about that. Just so that people know, if you don't mind saying, what age you are?
Derren
I'm 17.
Catherine
17, that's great. Okay – Ify, do you want to tell us who you are and how social workers have been involved in your life?
Ify
Yeah so, my name is Ify Nwokoro, born and raised in Nigeria, moved to the UK just over a decade ago, and I was involved in a car accident in 2010 that left me paralyzed with a spinal cord injury and that's really the first time I got involved with social workers in the hospital and pretty much since then, pretty much all my social work needs have come from that perspective, of that medical spinal cord injury disability side of things.
Catherine
That's brilliant, thanks for that both of you.
So today we're going to talk about standard 2 and standard 2 for social workers is the importance of social workers establishing and maintaining the trust and confidence of people and I think it's one of the most important standards for a social worker because it tells them how to be a social worker and how they should behave, so I’m going to ask you both a bit about that and a bit about your experience and of social workers that have worked directly with you. I'll start this time with Ify, my question to you is, what has your experience been about being able to establish and build trust with your social workers, if you have been able to do that?
Ify
So I haven't had social workers involved with me like, or right through the whole process but right through the decade I’ve had this disability, but every time they've had to step in were situations where I was in a vulnerable position, so straight off the bat the need for establishing trust and you know, making me feel safe in their hands was pretty crucial, to the first time when I was in hospital it came more from sort of, not putting too much pressure on me um social worker let herself known, let herself be known by me and let me know where to find her that sort of thing, and she'd pop in just to check how I’m doing, maybe sometimes like have a cup of tea with me, that kind of thing, and I got to know her as a person first and I was lucky to have, like be in that position, being in hospital where she was based so by the time we actually started getting to the brass tacks of the technical side of things, of what I needed post admission, which is really where the social work intervention came in, I was already comfortable with her and it was made very clear from the start that it was a case of she was there to help me, not get to a point where I didn't need her anymore which I respected quite a lot, because that's almost like, say my job is to make sure that my job becomes obsolete, that sort of thing.
But it just made it feel more genuine, that this person actually was there like, for my needs and ever since then I’ve been a lot more open-minded with social workers since then but it's sort of been the same thing where I’ve been in a vulnerable situation and then they've sort of like, had a discussion with me, how to tackle me on an informal basis and established who we were as people first before getting into the actual work and yeah that's how getting that trust has worked for me really.
Catherine
That's amazing and hearing that sort of whole side of, just building that relationship is so important, particularly in your position where it was a catastrophic event in your life and relationships are really important at that stage, so thanks for that Ify.
So Derren, what about you? Have you been able to sort of, have a social worker that you've built a good relationship with and that you've trusted?
Derren
A bit of both ways because it’s like, my social worker I’ve got now, I couldn't fault her but like, I just couldn't. Like she's been good at building relationships, she does try and keep in contact, I don't always make it easy.
But in the past I wouldn't ever say it's anything social workers did, I wouldn't say any of my past social workers, other than there was one I worked with as, but I was working with 2 at the same time, a student, and the student was really good at building a relationship and maintaining trust but like I’d say, it wasn't as much the social workers it was that I didn't make that aspect easy - I avoided conversations and I’d like, my mum would tell me ‘oh your social worker's coming’ and I’d just not be at the house all day and just avoid them.
Catherine
And why was that? Was it about them or was it about the fact that they were a social worker?
Derren
It wasn't them being a social worker, it wasn't even them doing anything wrong either, it was just their personality didn't work for me like I have to say it.
Catherine
That's absolutely yeah, understandable, especially when you're young and it really matters doesn't it, that you get on with the person that's working with you?
Okay so another question I’m going to ask you both is about, part of that, the standard is about been being really part of decision making and feeling that you're in control of what happens to you. And I think social workers get criticised quite a lot that they don't involve people enough, particularly young people, and sometimes decisions are taken where young people, or anybody really, isn't fully involved in that decision.
So just from your point of view we'll go to Ify again, have you felt involved in decision making and have social workers made that easy for you? Have they included you in big decisions in your life?
Ify
Yeah so I've been quite hands-on with like, living with disability from the start. I did definitely have to be pushed in that direction at the start, I didn't know what life was going to be like out in the community and actually having to live with disability outside of a controlled hospital environment. But yeah, the social workers and all the medical staff in fact in the hospital made a point of duty to encourage my independence you know, direct my own care, have a say in decisions that would be made and it wasn't even a case of they were just telling me what, that I needed to do these things.
When they were just starting making some of those decisions they tried to make sure that where it was possible I was involved, so one of the big things social workers helped me get do was transition back into university.
I knew I wanted to go back into university straight after discharge as quickly as possible but there was, there were a lot of like technicalities and getting that like sorted out, to the few meetings with different groups of people involved with the process and as much as possible the social worker would always like, invite me to the meetings, make sure that they were on the day I was available or if there was any reason I couldn't make a meeting that was possibly down to my health or something that was out of my control, but making it possible for me to always be able to attend those meetings if I wanted to and then thank goodness I did because there were definitely some things that if I didn't get a say in how they panned out, things would have turned out unfavourably.
When I got to, you know, I would give my two cents on what I thought, how I thought things should go forward, I got to learn why things happen a certain way or could or couldn't be how I wanted them and make better informed decisions going forward. So yeah I was definitely encouraged to take part in my decisions around my life at the time and I’m very grateful for that really.
Catherine
That's brilliant. Was there any was there any decision that was taken without your involvement?
Ify
No so there were decisions that went different ways from what I wanted. There were different decisions that I wasn't happy with but there was a good effort made to help me understand why. I mean even at the time there were some things that I wasn't happy with or I wasn't happy with the explanations I was given. They say hindsight is 20 20 so looking back now I can see where they were coming from and even though there's some things I feel they could have still done a bit differently at the time, but I didn't have the insights I have now like ten years later so in hindsight it went a lot better than I thought it did.
But none of those decisions were down to just outrightly making them, them being made for me, it was always a case of ‘this couldn't happen because X Y Z is in place’ that sort of thing. There was always an explanation, whether I was happy with it or not, but at least I wasn't being left out of those decisions.
Catherine
Yeah, you were really included.
Ify
Yeah.
Catherine
So Derren, what about you? Have you felt included in all the decisions made about you in your life?
Derren
Yeah, I have always, I’ve always felt pretty included but obviously I also look at it and even like sometimes I won't weigh up all the pros and cons, so when there is a decision getting made I’m usually there. I am probably the one who puts the least amount of thought into a decision so although it would be pretty easy for them to make a decision without me they’ve always been, they’ve always included me in like, decisions that are going to impact anything at the end of the day or at least my social worker, I don't know about everyone's but just want to do what's best for the young people they work with.
Catherine
That's great. How many social workers have you had in your life?
Derren
About 6.
Catherine
6, so that's quite a lot. Ify – how many social workers have you gotten to know?
Ify
Gotten to know? 2, yeah just the 2 now. I’ve probably worked with one other in passively. Yeah I’ve only really welcomed 2 social workers.
Catherine
Both really good places to make observations about your own experience of that. If you had to sort of choose, would you want social work contact in person or is it quite okay over technology, you know using technology?
Ify
I can think of situations where it would, I preferred to have it in person but in my head those tend to be more crisis situations, or situations that tend to be a lot more sensitive but this is just my imagination, thankfully I’ve not had to deal with any sort of negative situation like that. There might be a situation that I can't think of but as it stands I’m quite happy just doing things over the phone. I'm comfortable with these things going virtual, video chats and all that. It's more a case of I’m comfortable with what they're, with what they are comfortable with.
So yeah, I wouldn't put a preference on either, again as I’m saying it's not really been tested for me to diversify the ways I communicate with them, so I’m good at whatever at the moment.
Derren
I actually prefer the ringing. I also think sometimes it is nice to see each other so I think mostly, especially now with me and my social worker, it’s an as and when, like I was speaking to her on my lunch break today. I, we don't really arrange calls or stuff or if she wants to see me, we struggle to see each other on weekdays anyway because I’ve got work so she'll say ‘I’m free this Saturday like 2 days before, are you at your mum and dad's?’ because she works, where she's based, near my mum and dad and we'll arrange to see each other that way so it's more casual rather than making it like, setting up meetings and stuff. It can sometimes be a bit too much like.
Catherine
Derren, can I ask you a question about you being in the looked after review, when people are talking about you and communicating across the sort of table, how does that feel?
Derren
Alright, you're always in it and everyone speaks to you respectfully. It's just about, most of it's about everyone finding out what you want and what's going to benefit you and what needs to happen. It's just small stuff like medicals, they can talk about when you want to move out, all that type of stuff so none of it's bad and everyone there makes you feel comfortable.
Catherine
That's great, thanks Derren.
So we're gonna just, we're going to, I've got another one question to ask but before we do that, I'm going to put you on the spot and say you 2 don't know each other. Is there anything you want to ask each other, one thing that does come to mind?
Ify
Like I was 20 when I had the accident and I always used to think ‘oh wow, that was really young’ but then many people like you who've obviously had that from much younger, I'll say how do you think your find the transition from say childhood to teenagers, and how do you think it's going to go going forward with social workers?
Derren
There's actually a plan put in place for, they say, I'm working with someone called a leaving care worker and she'll completely take over my social worker as soon as I turn 18 and so I’ll work with her up until I’m 25 and then after that, I'll practically just live obviously like any other adult would.
Ify
Are you looking forward to that? Are you nervous?
Derren
So I've not really thought about it. Obviously that's quite a while away. My social worker who I work with now, like I only started working with her when I had moved to the local area so around the same time I got my social worker, a couple of months after I had my leaving care worker working with me anyway so I’ve got a good relationship with both of them.
Ify
That's pretty good.
Catherine
That’s great, so you feel quite confident about the future?
Derren
Yeah.
Catherine
So, yeah the last question, and I want you to sort of think about this one.
We really want social workers to be the best they possibly can and we want to support them in that but if there was 3 things that you thought was important for a social worker to know or be skilled at, what would those 3 things be and why?
Ify, will I put you on the spot first?
Ify
Yeah, I'll go first. Oh, okay so first thing I’d say is probably patience. Being patient, not just with the service user also with the situation as a whole, as a lot of people would know they don't tend to be very easy or straightforward. Also being patient with themselves and you know, not putting that pressure on too much if things aren't going the right way. So yeah, patience is a big deal for me in regard to anyone who I'm in their care.
Second thing I’d say is probably self-care – that's probably like my top one for social workers. Just the better frame of mind my social worker is, the better service they can provide me so from an individualistic point of view, from my own selfish point of view, like I’ll get better services if they are well taken care of but also from their point of view they'll be able to do a better job and come out of it a lot more satisfied and more fulfilled from doing their job.
Catherine
Derren, the most important thing for social workers?
Derren
I’d probably say managing their time pretty well in terms of, although you have your working hours, like my social worker now says to her boss like, gas a conversation with her boss and she's like ‘I understand that these are my working hours but Derren wants to schedule in a conversation but can't talk on it in my working hours because he's at work himself, so can I take a few hours off one of the days and put them onto the Saturday and go out and see Derren?’ and so like managing the time where it benefits not even just young people, the people they're working with because not everyone can do every time.
Catherine
Brilliant, so fitting into your lifestyle as much as you know, not nine to five sort of thing? Really important.
Derren
Yeah.
Catherine
Any other important things features of a social worker?
Derren
I can't say I’ve seen a lot but I think a social worker should be straightforward. I think that it's better to get the point across and potentially upset the person you're working with then tiptoe around it and then still end up with the same outcome.
Catherine
Be honest and straightforward, yeah.
Derren
And then I’d probably also say, let the person you’re working with kind of take the lead more. Like if I was talking to my social worker and she was constantly butting into every last sentence I’d probably get fed up and I’d just leave it and be like, so they need to be able to listen as well.
Catherine
Brilliant one, that's fantastic. So Ify?
Ify
The third one that came to mind was being open-minded about, you know, what you could face out there and when we hear the words ‘open-minded’ usually we think maybe to someone whom you may not be, you may not agree with on a fundamental level – whether it's their beliefs or their actions they've taken. But most of that is important and not trying to take anything away from that type of open-mindedness, also thinking of things like Derren said, having a client who may not be able to fit in the time that you're working out, being open-minded to think outside the box and you know, being open minded to different situations that social worker might find themselves in not necessarily or something to do with the clients, but more with their environment, something to do with the people around them, their family, that sort of thing.
And it's not a case of having, just sticking completely by the book. That may sound like I’m saying that you should break rules but no, just shouldn't be too rigid with their approach to their clients and every situation is different, every case is different, every service user is different, I just mean being open-minded to, you know things possibly not being how you may think they are when you first take on the case.
Catherine
Well that was a really insightful discussion Ify and Derren, thanks ever so much.
Really positive response in terms of, you know, just your views about social work and that's really great to hear – it's not always the case and we promise we didn't give them the script but it was really good to hear that and I think lots of food for thought as well.
Certainly one of my like, moments during that conversation was that, was from you Ify and where you said that the most important thing you thought a social worker needed to have was patience, I have to say that I was a little bit taken aback you know. I was thinking of all sorts of things but patience wasn't a word that necessarily jumped into my head and, but I thought about that you know, just during these few minutes and I think it is really, really important. I do see the importance and patience is a such a hard thing to have as a social worker. You know, we're expecting families to, and people to, change and do things very quickly at our pace but actually, that isn't how we achieve sustainable change and we've got to let people you know, go at that at their pace.
And there is something as well about organisationally you know, we're under a lot of pressure to close things and get things done, so being professionally patient is hard in the context that we're working but for me, it's about having that inner patience and to really offer to people you know, the opportunity to work on their own lives, and for them to take that that on when social work isn't present in their lives and so there's, there is you know, it has been a really, I think really insightful to use the word patience and it's maybe not something as I say that social workers are necessarily well trained at or good at, but I’m certainly going to think about it and from my own perspective so thanks for that.
So Philippa, any top tips or anything that sort of struck you making this podcast?
Philippa
Thanks Catherine. I think there are lots of things really in terms of top tips, I could probably reel off a list but trying to think what's really pertinent, I think again I think you really touched on it before we, at the beginning when you talked about, and I think Matthew you said it as well, about the value of listening and I think it's about looking at, that communication comes in many forms and I think really being reminded of that and thinking about those different ways we can communicate with people, and sometimes you know, just being and spending time with people and not always going in with an agenda.
I think often in statutory social work there always needs to be an aim or purpose of the visit or the meeting but actually, if we're talking about building relationships, some of that's being you know, spending time with people. Some of the best conversations I’ve had with young people have been when we've been driving somewhere or when we're just walking out of a meeting you know what I mean or where you know, we're you know, I’m taking them somewhere, taking them to you know, to have family time or to see and to meet someone new, so I think it's about just remembering that the value of communication can come in many different forms, and just to also always think about, maybe sometimes be the social worker you would want to have, you know? And think about how that is received because I think that's really important.
Matthew
I'm going to sound like a broken record but I’m going to talk about listening as well and I talked about this on Twitter a couple of weeks, a couple of weeks ago and it was something that my very first practice educator said to me, and this was 14 years ago now and it all stuck with us, and she was a brilliant social worker and she said very early on in my placements, this was my first 70 day placement this was, it was my first big placement, and she said very early on ‘learn how to listen to people’ and that has stuck with me for the last 14 years and I probably didn't understand it at that point, I didn't understand the importance.
I didn't really understand what she truly meant and there was probably a lot of other information that was being given to us at that stage and I was a bit overwhelmed by everything, first placement, but I think that building that skill I think was so important and I think, in that placement was with older adults, which was a completely new area for me to enter into and it was ultimately the area of social work that I went into when I first qualified and that has stuck with us in every role that I’ve had – learning how to listen to people, whoever that individual is and whatever their circumstances are and whatever circumstance you're meeting them in, I think just listening to them, spending that time truly listening as well is a skill to develop and I think it's sometimes overlooked.
But I think for me that remains a really important part of my professional life but my personal life as well. I mean I listen to my children, listen to my wife, all those things are really important so it certainly stuck with us and had a really profound impact I think on me as an individual and me as a social worker, and I think that has to be my number one because it certainly had the biggest impact.
Catherine
That's great Matthew and actually, when both of you are talking you know, the patience bit has filtered in again you know, and actually we can't expect that good communication to happen immediately – we've got to work at it, we've got to develop it and we've got to make it right for the people that we're working with and I suppose the thing I probably would like to end on, and it was something actually that sort of resonated with me I think quite early on in my career, was relationships change lives.
You know, without a relationship you ain't gonna do very much social work and sometimes that will take time and sometimes you think it's time you haven't got but without it, you aren't going to affect any meaningful change and that's what social work is.
Philippa
Thanks again to Ify and Derren for joining us today and sharing their personal experiences of social work so openly, as well as Matthew and Catherine for adding their own perspectives.
If you enjoyed the discussion and would like to continue the conversation with us you can follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn using the hashtag #ThisIsSocialWorkPod to share your thoughts.
You can also find out more about the professional standards on our website.
Join us for our next episode where we'll be talking about standard 3 and what it means to be accountable for the quality of your practice and the decisions you make as a social worker.
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In this episode, our head of equality, diversity and inclusion Ahmina Akhtar explores professional standard 1 alongside Isaac, a member of our National Advisory Forum, and Sharon, chair of National Independent Reviewing Officer Manager’s Partnership. They share what social justice means to them and how social workers can promote it within their practice.
They also discuss how to recognise diversity when working with people, as well as challenging disadvantage and discrimination.
Join the conversation using #ThisIsSocialWorkPod on our website and follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn.
Transcript
Ahmina
Hi, I'm Ahmina Akhtar, head of equality diversity and inclusion at Social Work England.
Welcome to This Is Social Work, a podcast from the specialist regulator for social workers Social Work England.
In this series, we're focusing on the professional standards – the 6 standards that social workers must know, understand and be able to adhere to as part of their role. The professional standards are specialist to the social work profession and apply to social workers in all roles and settings across England.
In this episode, we're focusing on standard one which requires social workers to promote the rights, strengths and wellbeing of people, families and communities.
Today I’m joined by National Advisory Forum member Isaac Samuels and Sharon Martin, chair of National Independent Reviewing Officer Managers Partnership (NIROMP). They share what social justice means to them and how social workers can promote it within their practice. We also discuss how to recognise diversity when working with people, as well as challenging disadvantage, discrimination, and oppression. We hope you enjoy the podcast.
I'm delighted to be joined today by Sharon Martin and Isaac Samuels, and I’m going to hand over to each of them to introduce themselves so I’ll start with Sharon.
Sharon
Hi, so yeah, my name's Sharon Martin. I’m also a registered social worker and I am chair of a group called the National Independent Reviewing Officer Managers Partnership and I’m also a local authority safeguarding and review manager, so what that means is that I’m involved in safeguarding and child protection work and I also have a real focus on children in care as part of my local work.
Ahmina
And we'll hand over to Isaac.
Isaac
Hi, so my name is Isaac Samuels. I have lived experience of lots of social worker support over many, many years. I'm also a member of the National Advisory Forum which is a forum, I would call it a critical friend to Social Work England and the reason I got involved in that is because I’m really passionate about social work because I’ve had lots of support from social workers in my life and I wanted to be able to help the profession by really sharing my experiences of social work over many years that I’ve had social workers in my life.
Ahmina
That's great, thank you Isaac and Sharon. I’m really pleased that you could join us today as we talk about standard one of the professional standards.
So I'm really conscious about the fact that there's a huge scope for standard one and that's because it's about promoting the rights, strengths and wellbeing of people, families and communities and we'll really be focusing on promoting strengths and equality, diversity and inclusion today because of that really large scope. And you'll both be familiar with the fact that in social work practice, we work with some of the most disadvantaged and marginalised individuals, families and communities, and often at some of the most difficult points in their lives and it really feels important for social workers to be able to recognise strengths of those individuals that they work with, and really be aware of power dynamics and be proactive in addressing those.
So, in reference to that then, I'd like to start with standard 1.6 and that talks about promoting social justice, helping to confront and resolve issues of inequality and inclusion and for me, anti-oppressive practice and anti-discriminatory practice are the mode through which most social workers demonstrate their commitment to social justice. And whilst those 2 approaches differ in focus, they are absolutely linked.
So anti-discriminatory practice focuses on tackling or reducing the discrimination faced by individuals from other individuals or organisations, whilst anti-oppressive practice seeks to tackle discrimination by focusing on the wider problems of discrimination within society itself, and how this is perpetuated by structures and systems.
So, I'll start with you Sharon. What does social justice mean to you and how can social workers promote it?
Sharon
So, thank you Ahmina. I think social justice is absolutely fundamental to social work practice. I think most social workers, including myself, would say it's the fundamental reason you know, why certainly I came into practice. I think it is absolutely as you say, it's about access and it's about equal opportunities so it's about thinking about the impacts of things like you know, employment, housing, finance.
We know the impact of poverty is a real you know, issue impacting on the lives of children and families and adults any of the people you know, that we serve and children that we serve. But it's also about human rights and it's about effectively, for me, making sure or working with and alongside people but also communities to make sure that no one is held back from having the life that they want to lead and reaching their potential essentially.
But I'd go further than equality. Actually, I think that equity is a really, really important aspect of what we do so it's about you know positively you know proactively helping people helping people to ensure that their voice is heard, so fundamentally I think those are the key aspects for me.
Ahmina
Thanks Sharon, and Isaac – what are your thoughts on what social justice means to you and in what ways can social workers promote it or in what ways have you seen social workers promote it?
Isaac
Sure, so I think for me social justice is something that is a real challenge because often society has lots of barriers they place in my way, in people like me’s life.
So to have a really good life, you need to have the same experiences as your peers and I just go back to the time that I was you know, I think when I came into contact with social services when my mum died, social workers were the people that advocated for my rights when I wasn't able to because of my age – they were the people that stood up for kind of, my rights, around the right place to live and I can give an example.
So as a young gay person it wasn't appropriate to just kind of place me anywhere. It was really thinking about what kind of environment would most work for me and that was a social worker to advocate for that, for my rights to have the right home so my foster placement was right for me, because they looked at the needs of myself but also advocated within that system and we all know that systems can sometimes not really understand what is important to people. When people get lost in that social work is often the people that are standing up and fighting for those individual rights you know.
I've been sectioned under the mental health act because of mental ill health. Now social workers have been there when I’ve needed support to get back into everyday kind of, life support to kind of, do the things that all of us take for granted, so employment and education, good housing, all those things that most people take for granted, if you've had a few bumps in the road can be really difficult things to actually live and breathe. Without the right support to overcome those barriers then you're never going to be able to have those same experiences, and that's why I really love social work because I remember all those opportunities to get the right support and think about ‘how do you overcome those barriers’ to someone that may have had a traumatic start in life, or had lost their home, or doesn't know how to kind of, navigate the big adult world, and social workers were part of that and have been for, for many, many years.
Ahmina
Thanks Isaac, really powerful and I think it connects to the next question that I had in mind which was thinking more about, what can social workers do to help confront and resolve issues of inequality and promote inclusion, and I think some of what you just said then really, really touched on that for me, so I think it'd be helpful maybe just to talk about that a little bit more. And particularly in reference to what you said in your last response Sharon, thinking more about equity and I think this is where we can explore equity much more when we're thinking about how we resolve inequality and how we can absolutely advocate for inclusion.
Sharon
Absolutely, I agree really, really powerful about what Isaac was saying about advocacy. I'd like to say a little bit more about you know, that at some stage but in terms of equity.
I’ve got an image you know, in my head if you like, it's quite a popular image you may have seen it. It's a 3, let's say 3 children who are trying to view a football match but there's a fence in in the way so they can't, but they can't see, so the 3 children are of different heights in effect.
So we've got a tall child who's you know, reasonably privileged by virtue of their height so they can see with one box reasonably well. We've got another child who's a sort of medium stature who with the one same one box can see reasonably well over the fence, slightly obscured still. And then we've got a third child who's very small probably my sort of height, I'm a little titchy as well and you know would that be me, I'd need a couple of boxes in order to you know, see over that you know, fence.
So when I think about equity it's about not treating people equally. You know, we've had different journeys in life, we've had different obstacles set in our way just as Isaac has said, and we've had different you know, bumps in the road.
We've got different abilities you know, you know disabilities and so on and therefore equity is about taking that on board and getting alongside you know, people and helping to kind of you know, lift them up in order that those equal opportunities can better be met in effect, so that people really do have the potential to achieve their, their ability, their capacity.
Ahmina
I’m familiar with that image and I saw Isaac nodding as well.
Sharon
It’s a great image, isn’t it?
Ahmina
It’s a great image, and it did, I remember reflecting on it and thinking that so many people think uniformity equals equity or equality and actually it's absolutely not about that, it's about really looking at the individual and their circumstances and building a relationship, and thinking about their needs, very much like what you described and Isaac talked about in terms of his experiences.
I'm going to come back to you Isaac and ask if there's anything else that you wanted to add?
Isaac
So I really like Sharon's picture of like you know, the young children with all of those barriers but actually for me the biggest barrier was my own mind and being able to see that there were opportunities. Hopes and dreams could become you know, lived experiences so social workers often helped me kind of see that anything was possible and then did some of that hand holding, which was really important. I had lots of trust issues and I didn't really know where I was going so having like real tangible support to kind of navigate those barriers is really important.
But not only me, like to work with my family, to work with the local community – it really meant a lot to me because it actually made a difference. I don't think anybody wants a service, what they want is a good life and I think what happens is that systems sometimes can just treat everybody the same, not realizing that we all have different challenges and barriers and if you ever had a bump in the road, you might need something to look and feel differently and that hand holding or that kind of support can often make a big difference.
So it's not about treating people the same, it's about understanding the individual, what they need, what you can do and going back to the first question, often advocating within a system that doesn't really get it. You need to do things differently in helping people overcome those barriers. So I think about like, that's often been in my life like the social worker fighting for a social care package or the social worker pushing me to go to university or social worker fighting to get, I think it was called section, is it, was it section 25 aftercare for like, education – all those things that you would never know, and those bits of support really made a difference because they helped me minimise those barriers, but I wouldn't have been able to do it by myself.
Ahmina
That's really powerful, thanks Isaac and I think it really resonated me, resonated with me when you said that like it was your own mind at times that was kind of the block and I think that's so interesting for, I think for all of us as individuals, for people that we support as social workers to recognise I think, just as a society often we are probably our own worst critics and I think we would probably never use the self-talk or speak to somebody else in the way that we speak to ourselves or discourage ourselves, so I think often at those points we do really need somebody else to fight our corner and I do think that it's really important that social workers are able to do that within their roles, so thank you.
So closely linked then to the last standard, is standard 1.5 and that states that as ‘social workers we must recognise differences across diverse communities and challenge the impact of disadvantage and discrimination on people and their families and communities’.
So for me that it feels really important to value the cultural needs and values of people and that feels really fundamental to social work practice, and again I think that connects with some of what we talked about with the, with the last standard, and it's a social worker's responsibility to try and understand as much as possible about the individuals that they're working with, their cultural identities, their families, their communities, much like what you said Isaac, and really recognising the significance of their culture and their belief and the culture in the broadest possible sense, because I think sometimes when we think about culture we kind of think more about broader culture but I think we also need to think about subcultures and family culture and think about what it means for that individual and all of the things that impact on their identity.
It also feels really important to say that social workers don't need to be highly knowledgeable about all cultures and different cultures. I think sometimes we can feel like we need to be an expert in all things and that can then discourage us from perhaps talking about things or acknowledging things because we don't have the confidence, but I think it feels really important to be able to just be open and engage and explain that you don't understand something or just say ‘oh I want to just check something out’, I feel like that's always served me well when I’ve not been sure, and I think it's so important to actually work with and use the knowledge and experience of the people that we're working with to be able to get the best outcomes for them.
So with that in mind, how can social workers recognise diversity when working with people and challenge disadvantage and discrimination.
Sharon
I mean just reflecting back again on some of what Isaac was saying that is immensely you know, powerful we all come you know, with different you know, experiences you know, you know, into this world.
I mentioned sort of you know, journeys, our journeys earlier on and when we enter into you know, a relationship you know, with a person be it a social worker with a you know, a child or young person that we're working with, we come into that relationship perhaps with a certain you know, some assumptions you know, we do that – we shortcut you know, situations in our minds in order to make you know, sense of them initially but moving beyond that it's really important that we ask those you know, those questions that we get alongside you know, people.
So I was very, kind of, trying to be very careful earlier to kind of, use the terms you know, working with you know, not giving voice to people actually because some of the things that I often hear from, for example, people with learned experience of the care system is that you know actually we have a voice and there's something about advocacy as you know, Isaac quite rightly you know, says but it's also about helping people to have their voices you know, kind of amplified and heard, and it's about listening and being you know, curious you know, in response to that essentially.
So I think you know, there's always a risk that we can homogenise you know, in terms of our understanding of you know, different communities. Of course we have you know, a real responsibility to make sure that learning is a, is a continuum within social work as it is in you know, life so we draw on available literature.
I’m a really firm believer that as social workers, as professionals, we're privileged and with that privilege comes a real responsibility to take ownership for our learning, so we create time if necessary, in order to make sure that we're learning.
But that goes beyond books. Books are really important it's about getting alongside people individuals and communities and discovering what culture you know, means for them because you know, we interpret and make sense of culture based on our different experiences, beliefs.
I absolutely draw on aspects of you know, my own lived experience in order to better under understand or try to, from you know, other people so drawing on for example my experience of you know, being kind of school or employment and stuff. Some of that stuff I mean, that you said around you know, self-talk you know, and how I overcame negative you know self-talk and the people that enabled me to do that and then I kind of utilised some of that the richness of that you know, learning how I then you know, interact with others. So I’m a real believer in people's you know, strengths and you know people's capacities. But I think as social workers we bring ourselves as a resource and the people that we come into contact with through our relationships, have the most wonderful you know, resources that we just need to kind of you know, seek out and understand together and check out our assumptions constantly along the way and ask for that feedback, and I think that's how you get a better understanding of culture, what it means.
Ahmina
Yeah, a lot of what you said then really resonated with me Sharon, I think particularly your last point on checking yourself and your assumptions. I think we live in such a fast-paced world and there's always so much going on and we're always so busy, and I think we do get into automatic pilot and there are so many influences on us all of the time and there's so much information and very much, like we said at the beginning that sometimes we do make overarching generalisations just to help us to process that, that is what we do need to do just because it wouldn't be possible to be able to function without being able to do that.
But equally it feels really important to be able to recognise that is what is happening and constantly questioning yourself around it and to be able to think about what assumptions it is that you are making so that you can challenge them. And I think in social work we're also really advantaged to be able to use supervision and peers, and really think about ways that we can engage with each other to reflect on those things and encourage that open conversation and challenge so that we are able to work anti-oppressively and anti-discriminately. So yeah, a lot of what you said resonated. Isaac?
Isaac
So, I think for me it's really important that you don't think of your understanding as a, or people's experiences as fixed because it's not and it often changes. So it's being open, it's being questioning, it's being human and it's really being alongside somebody to understand what's important to them, what's important to their community and really being inquisitive so I'll give an example.
So, you might be from a particular place or you might identify with a particular group of people but then if you happen to have another bump in the road, such as disability or you are from an LGBT background you know, your experience might be totally different so it's understanding all of the bits of someone, and I think social workers do this really well because they I think talk about like, person-centered care planning so when you really understand someone from all of those different aspects, of what's important to them, then you really can support them in the best possible way.
The other thing that I would say that has happened to me in my life, I’ve been taught by social workers around some of the misconceptions that I’ve had around my own culture and identity and you know like I, you know, came out and had support from a social worker that happened to be gay and that was really positive and really empowering because I didn't know what it meant to be a young person coming out and being in the system and what that meant so it's like, really using those individual skills and experiences that we have and I think that is a great opportunity to understand people's needs.
The other thing that is really important is to really try to empathise with people and to really listen and those people that really listen to me have really got me, so I think there's a great opportunity to understand what's important to people, about how they want to live their lives and what things matter to them and I think that culture's such a big word and when you try to explain it, it doesn't necessarily make sense to me but I do know like, I consider myself to be a person of colour, from London, I’m an LGBT person and when you understand all those little bits of me, then you get an understanding of who I am. If you just focused on the colour of my skin or the fact that I’m gay or the fact that I’m disabled, you wouldn't really know me at all you know, to join up the dots.
One about disadvantage, I suppose is the most important one, I think when you've had these bumps in the road it can be really difficult to spot some of the barriers and challenges and I think often, professionals are taken much more seriously than people with legislation unfortunately, or don't have the resource or the understanding and going back to my earlier experiences, social workers advocating when they see inequality or they see injustice and really trying to get the best possible intervention or support for someone like me, has made a difference and I wouldn't have been able to do it by myself. So that social work training, that experience makes a difference in people's lives.
Ahmina
Thanks Isaac and really, really, really powerful and I think you're talking about looking at an individual through that intersectional lens feels really, really important and I think you're absolutely right – that just to highlight one aspect of somebody's identity can be, it can be really detrimental to how they are perceived and I think it is really difficult sometimes when perhaps you inhabit multiple identities or see yourself in different ways, and actually people don't always feel able to engage in all of that and I think for me, being holistic is absolutely vital in being a good social worker and I think just some of those examples that you highlighted there, really demonstrate that.
So, moving on to standard 1.4 and I think we've touched on this a little bit throughout actually, and obviously all of the standards connect which is why we've picked these to focus on today. So standard 1.4 is value the importance of family and community systems and work in partnership with people to identify and harness the assets of those systems, so for me that's very much about social workers understanding the importance of relationships and I think in in both of the responses to your other questions, you've really focused on relationships and I think that's absolutely key, and seeing them as an asset for me, this ultimately means working with people and seeing them as part of families and communities and networks as you said previously Isaac, and looking at how they live and how they practice and the way they live out their values and what that means to them, and also really listening.
And like you said Isaac, actively listening – I think I’m guilty of this often, is that sometimes when people talk we often are thinking about what we're going to say and actually we need to really concentrate much more on what they, what they are saying and really listen and I think for a lot of us, that's a work in progress and it feels really important to think about all of the contributions of that individual and thinking about how they interact with others in the groups with communities, and also just them as a whole person as we talked about.
So when working with people, why is it important to work in partnership with their family and community? So, I'll come to you first Isaac because I think it links in with your last response really well.
Isaac
So I think it's important because nobody lives or wants to live in service land – people want good ordinary lives and unfortunately, I think when you've had these bumps in the road, sometimes there can be problems with your community, there can be problems with your family, that I know that I wouldn't have been able to overcome those problems without some real good support and I think about all the times you know, like being you know, losing my mum and then becoming a looked after child and losing contact with my family you know, social work being really instrumental in re-establishing those connections but also preparing me for an adult world where I would be going and building my own connections was really important.
But also you know throughout my years of you know, I've had mental health challenges, I’ve got physical health problems, being part of my local community is really important but I don't think we live in a world that is necessarily the most embracing to people that have bumps on their journeys and I think that there are lots of barriers, and social work can often help people stay connected, reconnect.
For me I live in a lovely place, I've got a lovely partner and that would have never been possible without those people at the beginning of my journey really helping me stay close to my dreams and hopes and aspirations, but when things have not gone really well being there as a support network. You can't really support an individual if you don't consider all the important people in their lives. You know, I'm not just Isaac, I'm Isaac that's a god parent, a partner and, and I suppose that makes it really difficult for social workers because you're looking at hundreds of opinions in some cases but actually the magic happens when we just live ordinary lives and I don’t just want a service, I just want a good life and you know, I can't do that without people, that love and care for me and my community and my family, and all those things are important.
So, I hope that answers the question, I'm not sure I did, but yeah.
Ahmina
No, it definitely does, it definitely did. And coming to you Sharon?
Sharon
Isaac really does, really does say it all. I mean the relational approaches and like I say really utilising the resources within ourselves and you know, reaching out to tap into and help bring out the resources both within you know, individuals that we come into contact with but also the communities is really important.
I mean, what I love about social work is that it's one of few professions that does take that very holistic approach, it looks at everything in the realm you know, it does look at the impact of like you say, the friendships, the family, the relationships around the child or the adult. It looks out to their kind of, community and how well they’re linked in with that, it looks at the impact of wider environmental you know, circumstances in terms of things like prejudice and discrimination, and some of those barriers that interrupt and make, can make life much more difficult.
IRO's, their fundamental you know, role taps into very strongly much of what Isaac has been saying around the role of advocacy, around the role of helping young people who were in care or had experience of care, to have both a better sense of their relationship but to recognise and make sure that they have those long lasting you know, relationships that will carry them through life, and to advocate you know, where appropriate and necessary but also in thinking about you know, relationships, to think about who else around might fulfil that advocacy role and enabling young people to speak up for themselves in effect.
So I think you know, relationships are absolutely central to everything and we like I say, said earlier we do bring aspects of ourselves I think, in our own experiences that can you know, lend to that so that there's something very much about humility and recognising that we can you know, move on and develop despite multiple adversities if you know, we have the relationships you know, around us that will help us to do that and that's why we spend, expend so much energy quite rightly into trying to kind of, create that frame.
It is really about building on you know, resources and you know, strengths you know, really to enable people to fully achieve their potential because we've all got potential.
But what I was going to say in relation to children you know, in care is that that sense of identity and you know, you know belonging unfortunately can be so much more you know, complicated. I think that many of us would say that kind of identity formation is a lifelong journey you know, social work is immensely powerful.
I feel immensely privileged to be a social worker and indeed it's social workers that have enabled you know, me to advance and you know, have a confidence in myself that you know, I don't think I'd have had you know, without that you know, gift and so what they you know, what they bring, so working with is incredibly important.
Ahmina
It really is and I think it's also, what I think both of you talked about it at different points around that identity being fluid, both our own and both, and that of the people that we work with and going on that journey together, and thinking about how you will develop as you learn more about the people that you're working with, but also how you use that knowledge to be able to work with people that you're supporting and continually developing that.
And I'm a big fan of learning, there's not enough time in the world is there, to be able to learn everything and I think then it comes back to what we talked about earlier, around just being open and making sure we absorb all the information that we can because as you said Sharon, you can't get everything from a book – it has to be about that constant reflection and thinking about our own assumptions and checking ourselves feels really key.
So I've really enjoyed this discussion and I suppose just as a closing point, I just want to think a little bit more about key takeaways so I’m going to ask both of you what is the most important thing that you'd like people listening to take away from this discussion that we've had today? So I'll come to you first Isaac.
Isaac
So the most important thing is to see people for what they can do and often that might mean facilitating space or creating the right conditions that people can talk for themselves, have a stronger voice and the solutions are out there, and it's really helping people find those solutions for themselves because ultimately we want people to be healthy people with good skills, connecting with people that matter to them and it's really important that you recognise that everyone has a unique contribution to make, they just might make it a very different way, so it's recognising that we all have barriers but with a bit of support, we can do anything.
Sharon
I just fundamentally believe that absolutely you know, what Isaac has said, we have to recognise that you know, some people have greater barriers you know, in their way and you know, therefore there is a role for us. There's a role for us in terms of you know, checking out, helping individuals to try and navigate you know, their own paths through those issues so that they can again build on and extend the strengths that they have so that they're not feeling that the strength sits you know, outside.
It really is about you know, working with and alongside and kind of reviewing and checking in and where necessary, advocating and taking action to create that change and taking action, and creating change can be you know, reasonably small things like, they can happen through those everyday interactions and relationships you know, that stuff about respect like I say you know, asking checking in, checking one's assumptions, helping you know, people to have their voices you know, amplified and heard by checking out that you've got the right people in the room through to you know, advocacy at a broader you know, level you know, in terms of advocacy around you know, changes to policy you know, et cetera. So, I think absolutely you know, social work – it is about change but we don't have all the solutions and nor should we.
Ahmina
Thank you. I think relationships are absolutely key. I think everything I’ve heard today and that we've discussed today has been really rich and I’ve really enjoyed the conversation.
I think a couple of things that really stood out for me was intersectionality and really looking at the individual holistically, and ensuring that we are working with them within all of their networks and all of their systems and thinking about them fully, and I think that feels really key for me.
Thanks again to Isaac and Sharon for joining me today and sharing their experiences and understanding of standard one and how it applies to practice.
If you enjoyed the discussion and would like to continue the conversation with us, you can follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn using the hashtag #ThisIsSocialWorkPod to share your thoughts – we'd love to hear from you. You can find out more about the professional standards on our website.
Join us for our next episode where we'll be talking about standard 2 and what it means to establish and maintain the trust and confidence of people.
Thanks again for joining us. Goodbye.
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This Is Social Work is a podcast from Social Work England, the specialist regulator for social work across England. Hosted by our very own regional engagement leads, we’ll be exploring the profession in more depth with a range of guests with lived and learned experiences of social work.
In our first series, we’re unpicking the professional standards with a number of guests with experience of social work. We’ll be looking at what the professional standards are, what they mean in more detail and why they’re important.
Join us as we explore the standards on a deeper level, whilst showcasing the unique knowledge and enthusiasm for and from a profession rooted in public protection, positive change and improving people’s lives.
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