Episodes
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Ever felt like a misfit in product marketing? Youâre not alone.
In this episode of Weâre Not Marketers, hosts Gab, Zach, and Eric dive deep into a hot topic for PMMs: discovering and honing your unique superpower to stand out in your role. Whether you're a product marketing veteran or new to the field, this conversation is packed with timeless advice, relatable stories, and strategies to help you identify your strengths and position yourself effectively.
Whatâs Inside This Episode?
Self-discovery exercises for PMMs: From creating a âwin listâ to identifying transferable skills.
Positioning yourself for success: Why knowing your competitive strength is key for landing the right roles.
Experimentation is key: How trying different PMM functions (like pricing or messaging) can reveal your passions.
Practical tools: Use energy-mapping techniques to uncover the tasks that fuel your motivation and career growth.
Standing out in the crowd: Why specializing in a niche or showcasing your work is a game-changer.
Confidence and mindset: The power of affirmations and self-belief in defining and owning your PMM identity.
Whoâs This Episode For?
Startup PMMs and fractional product marketers in B2B SaaS whoâre looking to differentiate themselves and feel unignorable in their roles.Key Takeaway:
Your superpower isnât just a skillâitâs how you position yourself and align your passions with business needs. Stop blending in and start standing out by owning your unique value.Show Notes
00:00 Introduction and Welcome
01:01 Casual Banter and Golf Talk
01:49 Understanding Your PMM Role
02:26 Personal Experiences in Product Marketing
03:33 Finding Your Competitive Strength
04:48 Exploring Different Aspects of PMM
06:57 Overcoming Imposter Syndrome
07:51 Leveraging Your Superpower
09:34 Practical Advice for PMMs
14:29 The Importance of Confidence
23:24 Final Thoughts and Conclusion
Sponsor
Zach Messler with Clarityrules.com
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In this next episode of We're Not Marketers, hosts Zach, Gab, and Eric are joined by Rahim Kaba, Director and Research Analyst at Gartner, to dive into the evolving role of PMM in B2B SaaS. With over 20 years of experience in the field, Rahim shares data with perspective on the function and challenges that come with it today. Key highlights include:
- The Core Identity of Product Marketers: Rahim argues that product marketers are unequivocally marketers, backed by data showing 81% of PMMs report directly to marketing teams.
- Shifting Expectations and Responsibilities: Learn about the changing scope of product marketing, from content creation roles to strategic leaders in positioning and storytelling.
- Strategic Insights on Launch Cadences: Rahim discusses the importance of aligning release cycles with customer adoption capabilities and how to avoid launch fatigue.
- Must-Have PMM Skills: Emphasis on the significance of data literacy, with tips on upskilling and resources like the Data Literacy Project.
- Build Internal Influence: Best practices to clarify PMM roles through charters and RACI models to strengthen cross-functional alignment.
The conversation also touches on the growth of fractional product marketers, the implications of market trends, and advice on how PMMs can elevate their strategic influence internally.
Whether you're a seasoned product marketer or just starting out, this episode is packed with practical tips, valuable research insights (umm Gartner, bro), and a clear roadmap to reinforce PMMâs impact in any company. Tune in for a âdeep-sea of researchâ dive of how PMMs can thrive in today's competitive landscape.
Time Stamps
02:11 Rahim's Background and Role at Gartner
03:15 Are Product Marketers Really Marketers?
07:06 Challenges and Misunderstandings in Product Marketing
09:51 The Evolution of Product Marketing
14:56 Data Literacy in Product Marketing
18:12 Impact of Layoffs on Product Marketing
21:04 Rise of Fractional Product Marketers
23:46 Specialization in Product Marketing
25:28 The Appeal of Fractional Product Marketing
27:06 Challenges and Strategies for PMMs
28:49 Effective Product Launch Strategies
33:22 Balancing Product and Marketing Priorities
34:44 The Role of PMMs in Organizations
38:06 Building a Product Marketing Charter
44:16 Using Gartner Insights
Where more to follow and connect with Rahim?
Rahim Kaba LinkedIn
Gartner Time to Value Podcast
Gartner for High Tech LinkedIn Page
Free Gartner Webinar Recording: How Growth Organizations Source Critical PMM Skills
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Episodes manquant?
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The role of the PMM is evolving and requires us to always adapt and be knowledgeable on new tech and initiatives. It can make a difference between a product marketer who is valuable and stack influence vs. someone whoâs on the layoff list.
Someone who keeps pushing the limit of practical product marketing and leveraging projects short-cuts to ship more is Jess Petrella, Senior Product Marketing Manager (PMM) at ZayZoon, and she has an amazing take on becoming an efficient PMM.
We discussed how AI can enhance the PMMs' capacity to analyze data and analyze opportunities, the importance of proximity with product teams, and the skills necessary for PMMs to co-create product roadmaps.
The episode provides practical advice for aspiring PMMs and reflects on how to navigate better the challenges of the profession, from someone who just built the function from scratch. We talk about:
Use AI for quicker data synthesis and opportunity analysis
Build advocacy skills to align with other teams
Strengthen connections with product teams
Collaborate on roadmaps to grow your role
Gain skills to impact product decisions
Simplify tasks with AI to increase output
Discover how you can build more influence as a PMM with the help of AI!
Timespan:01:04 Discussing Product Marketing and Launches
02:16 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?
03:15 The Evolution of Product Marketing
05:21 Building Influence as a Product Marketer
17:43 Leveraging AI in Product Marketing
28:53 Conclusion and Farewell
Show Notes:
Jess LinkedIn
https://pmmops.com/
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The worst thing about being a PMM is not having to launch a new product within 2 weeks, or drowning in sales decks. Itâs all sharing the same trauma that people donât understand product marketing.
Weâve seen a lot of movement on LinkedIn about PMMs sharing horror stories. Michele Nieberding even did a talk about it at PMA Boston.
And we were lucky enough to have her sharing them on the pod, just in time for Halloween đ our FAVORITE HOLIDAY đ
Michele, the director of product marketing at MetaRouter, spent almost a decade in product marketing and loves Halloween, weâre talking about:
Combining new brands, products and segments
Freemium to Screemium
Failed launches and disastrous rebrands
Product enforcement gone wrong
A bunch of jokes and fun things
Start feeling better about your role and discover horror stories for PMMs that would scare even ghouls and ghosts!
Timespan:
00:00 Introduction and Sponsorship
01:02 Meet the Hosts
01:28 Special Guest Introduction
03:20 PMM Horror Stories: Introduction
06:42 Horror Story 1: The Freemium Nightmare
14:01 Horror Story 2: Enforcing Usage Limits
19:30 The Sleep Sack Nightmare
21:10 Customer Perspective on Luxury Baby Products
22:03 Manufacturing and Packaging Woes
24:26 A College Business Competition Fiasco
25:54 The Real Estate App Pricing Disaster
30:44 The Rebranding and Product Launch Debacle
37:29 Closing Thoughts and Farewell
Show Notes:
Micheleâs LinkedIn
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For PMMs, it can be difficult to have a good relationship with sales, especially in new roles.
Win-loss analysis and interviews can be a good win when you see that close-lost column piling up on the CRM pipeline.
But how can you take another responsibility on your to-do when youâre already swamped?
Matthew Reeves, CEO and co-founder of GoldPan, runs a win-loss analysis agency. In this episode, heâs showing us:
How to build rapport with sales teams
The complexities of positioning and messaging
Why you need both wins and losses for good research.
Why information overload kill sales.
The nuanced value of churn analysis.
Hear also the very unique take of Matthew on if product marketers are marketers, we canât say we heard this one yet!
Timespan:
00:00 Welcome to We're Not Marketers
00:19 Introducing Matthew Reeves, CEO of GoldPan
01:37 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?
02:49 The Evolution and Challenges of Marketing
12:21 The Importance of Win-Loss Analysis
21:31 Building Rapport Between Product Marketers and Sales
34:25 Sales Missteps and Buyer Uncertainty
34:59 Understanding Product Assessment
35:34 The Role of Risk and Values in Buying Decisions
37:01 Challenges in Product Marketing
37:48 The Importance of Win-Loss Analysis
38:39 Switching Costs and Product Marketing
40:34 Effective Sales Messaging
43:14 The Buyer-Seller Dynamic
50:06 The Value of Churn Analysis
54:29 Bad Sales Experiences
01:01:33 Closing Thoughts and Future Plans
Show Notes:
Matthewâs LinkedIn
Goldpan website
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Get ready for some real talk about positioning! In this episode, we sit down with the queen of positioning herself, April Dunford. If your startupâs positioning feels a little âmushyâ or your product is getting compared to everyone under the sun, this episode is for you. April shares her no-nonsense approach to tightening up your message and teaching your CEO why positioning isnât just some abstract marketing conceptâitâs the foundation of your success. Whether youâre battling internal buy-in or figuring out how to stand out in a crowded market, Aprilâs got the answers (plus a few hilarious takes on toilets and camping). Hereâs what youâre missing, by not listening:
Is your product positioning âmushyâ? Learn why vague messaging is killing your pitchâand how to fix it.
The secret weapon for startups: Aprilâs advice on involving sales and product teams in positioning.
Why âactionable insightsâ arenât really actionable: How to cut the jargon and speak your customer's language.
CEO thinks their product positioning is fine? Aprilâs roadmap to making them see the problemâwithout calling their baby ugly.
Positioning vs. features: Why selling value over features is your ultimate key to success.
Show Notes
00:00 Introduction and Sponsor Message01:05 Meet the Hosts and Guest Introduction
01:39 April Dunford on Product Marketing
03:25 The Role of Positioning in Startups
09:17 Building Influence as a Product Marketer
23:27 Fun and Games with April Dunford
34:26 Discovering Catan: A Board Game Revelation
35:00 Building Dreams: Choosing the Perfect Cottage Location
36:10 Torture Chamber Round: Birds or Stars?
38:42 The Cardinal Sins of Product Positioning
43:33 Selling Platforms: Value Over Features
01:00:17 The Art of Persuasive Writing in Marketing
01:04:52 Career Advice for Product Marketers
01:11:01 Engage with April Dunford: Books, Podcasts, and More
Resources
April Dunford LinkedIn
April Dunford website
April Dunfordâs Positioning Podcast
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Dealing with the chaos of being a PMM while trying to balance the rest of your life? Youâre not alone.
In this candid episode of We're Not Marketers, Zach, Eric, and Gab dive into the realities of managing life as a Product Marketing Manager, whether you're in-house or fractional. From overwhelming work expectations to the struggle of balancing personal life, the team discusses how to protect your mental health while handling an always-on work culture. They share personal stories, tips like setting boundaries, removing work apps from phones, and practical advice on how to deal with burnout. If you're feeling the strain of managing your career, relationships, and self-care, this episode is a must-listen.
Key takeaways include:
Strategies to create separation between work and personal time (e.g., daily rituals, setting boundaries, Slack detox).
Real-talk about burnout and why mental health shouldnât be just a âcorporate benefit.â
Practical tips on saying ânoâ to unrealistic requests and protecting your productivity.
How fractional PMMs handle the pressure of multiple clients while in-house PMMs navigate endless internal demands.
Tune in to hear the team's perspectives on how to reclaim balance and stay sane as a PMM.
Show Notes00:00 Introduction and Sponsor Message
01:02 The Challenges of Being a Product Marketer
02:22 In-House vs. Fractional Product Marketing
04:45 Balancing Work and Personal Life
07:41 Setting Boundaries and Mental Health
22:02 Productivity Tips and Techniques
30:50 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
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In this episode of We're Not Marketers, we sit down with the one and only Jeff Chase, Director of Brand and Product Marketing at Vitally.io, who drops a major hot takeâproduct marketers arenât marketers (wait, what?!). But Jeff doesnât stop there. He believes PMMs are the future leaders of marketing, and heâs got the experience and insights to back it up.
Tune in as we dive into the evolving role of product marketers in B2B SaaS. From positioning and messaging to why PMMs have the potential to become CMOs, Jeff shares his journey and unique approach to blending product and brand marketing. We also tackle the age-old question: how can PMMs build better relationships with their brand teams?
Whether you're a PMM ready to shake up your organization or just curious about where this role is headed, this convo is one you donât want to miss:
PMMs vs. Marketers: Jeffâs surprising take on why product marketers arenât really marketers.
The Future CMO Pipeline: Why Jeff believes product marketers are primed to become the next generation of marketing leaders.
The Art of Brand Storytelling: How product marketers can elevate their influence by mastering brand marketing collaboration.
Hiring Hacks: Jeffâs refreshing approach to recruitment, and why he believes hiring managers have a deeper responsibility than you think.
Copycats Beware: How to stay a step ahead of competitors who love to swipe your messaging.
Time Stamps
00:00 Introduction and Host Intros
00:56 Special Guest Introduction: Jeff
02:02 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?
04:35 The Future of Product Marketing
08:55 Building Cross-Functional Relationships
10:48 The Role of Brand Marketing
14:30 Hiring and Leadership Insights
36:21 Dealing with Competitors
43:46 Conclusion and Sign-Off
Show Notes
Jeff Chase LinkedIn Profile
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In this episode, Jarod Greene, CMO of Vivint, shares his journey from teaching middle school math to Gartner analyst to CMO today and offers actionable advice for PMMs struggling to gain recognition. Learn how to use research, co-create with sales, and communicate your value to drive impactful product marketing strategies in your workplace.
When you let Jarod cook (#lethimcook) and youâre gonna getâŠ
How teaching 7th graders prepared Jarod to lead B2B marketing strategyâand why itâs still the hardest job heâs ever done.
The âmagicianâ role of product marketers: Why being a chameleon is the ultimate superpower in your company (and how to harness it).
Co-create with sales? Yes, please. The surprising reason your best sales reps should help write your next piece of content.
Forget the committeeâJarodâs trick to stop internal fights over messaging using the one thing no one can argue with: Data.
âI had no idea what PMM was 10 years agoâ â how Jarod went from confused to CMO and why it could be your career roadmap too.
Content without context = chaos. Jarodâs formula for why great content flops (and how to make it land every time).
How to manage up, down, and sideways: Jarodâs guide to becoming a leader before you even get the title.
Time Stamps
00:00 We're Not Marketers (S3) - Jarod Greene
01:00 Welcome to Season Three!
01:46 Introducing Gerard Green
03:01 From Teaching to Marketing
05:15 The Role of Product Marketers
07:15 Becoming a CMO
18:03 Content with Context
22:19 Co-Creating with Sales
28:20 The Content Production Dilemma
29:07 The Importance of Research in Marketing
30:27 Primary vs. Secondary Research
31:22 Leveraging Data for Decision Making
39:43 Integrating AI in Marketing Strategies
43:34 The Reality of Product Market Fit
51:21 Upcoming Projects and Events
Show Notes
Jarod Greene LinkedIn Profile
UNXPCTD - Explore way AI is revolutionizing B2B Sales
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There are many different flavors of product marketers, whether youâre in-house or fractional like our host, you need to be aware of your special sauce đ
The product marketing function is becoming more and more nuanced, so you need to know what you are good at and why these special skills matter with your expertise and work environment.
Megan Pratt went from senior PMM to director of PMM and was one step away from a VP position before she decided to go full-time as a fractional PMM.
Today, sheâs coaching product marketers and helping companies as a fractional PMM. In this episode, weâre covering:
Misconceptions we have about going fractional
How to find your secret sauce as a PMM
How to educate prospects on product marketing
Learn how to say no without saying no
Building your pipeline as a consultant
Common gaps in product marketing
So join us, whether youâre a fractional, or in-house hire, and learn about a true expert on how to say no.
Timespan:
00:00 Introduction and Hosts' Banter
01:14 Introducing Special Guest Megan Pratt
06:09 The Value of Product Marketing
21:26 Personal Insights and Career Growth
26:25 Transition to Fractional Work
26:31 Challenges and Misconceptions of Going Fractional
30:48 Messaging Best Practices
31:13 Clarifying Roles and Responsibilities
32:23 Setting Boundaries in Freelancing
33:42 The Importance of Saying No
36:34 Building a Freelance Pipeline
50:56 Common Gaps in Product Marketing
59:42 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
Show Notes:
Product Marketing House
Meganâs LinkedIn
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After 29 episodes, weâre finally closing down our season 2 and weâre taking this opportunity to circle back on why PMMs are misunderstood today in B2B SaaS.
Being misunderstood isnât the problem, itâs the apathy from colleagues and management regarding our roles and responsibilities. But we should be proud of being misfits because itâs our uniqueness that can have a real impact on our jobs. All we need is more influence and less apathy.
In this episode, weâre going back on why we started the pod, how weâre researching our market, find new episode topics, and a special way on how you can be on the pod for upcoming seasons:
â The key takeaways from this season that every PMM should know
â Our thoughts on the future of Product Marketing and whatâs on the horizon
â What is the misfit madness and how can you be a special guest
Tune in for the last time of season 2, and enjoy a monthly break of not hearing us talk about product marketing đHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.
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Timeline:
00:17 - Meet Emma Stratton: Life Coach and Messaging Expert
03:03 - Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?
06:45 - Embracing the Misfit Identity in Product Marketing
12:15 - Handling Messaging Challenges and CEO Fears
21:05 - Transitioning to Entrepreneurship: When is the Right Time?
26:50 - Work-Life Harmony: Balancing Energy Drainers and Energizers
32:35 - Avoiding Company Politics and Aligning Teams
38:15 - Real-life Example: Messaging for an Australian Data Company
45:07 - Emmaâs Upcoming Book: Make It Punchy
47:10 - Torture Chamber Game: Cringey Marketing Terms
55:00 - Final Thoughts and Staying Connected with Emma
Show Notes:
Emma's book: Make It Punchy: How to Write Simple Tech Messaging That Wins Hearts, Minds, and Markets (Pre-order now)
Punchy messaging newsletter
Follow Emma Stratton on LinkedIn
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Timestamps:
01:36 PMM jobs and LinkedIn trends.
03:00 Discussion about job application experiences and interview etiquette.
05:00 Gab shares a story about a go-to-market assignment.
08:00 Eric shares a story about interviewing with a competitor.
12:00 Zach shares a story about a poor recruiting experience.
16:00 Eric discusses a job that ended up being a bad fit.
19:00 Discussion on hiring practices and candidate experiences.
22:00 Importance of clear expectations and roles in hiring.
24:00 The value of specific hiring criteria and trust in the hiring process.
27:00 The benefits of private communities for job searching.
30:00 Gab's experience with irrelevant job postings.
33:00 Eric and Zach discuss the value of consulting and contracting as a career approach.
36:00 Final thoughts on hiring practices and candidate experience.
40:00 Additional anecdotes and reflections on job search experiences.
45:00 Tips for navigating the PMM job market.
50:00 Closing remarks and promotions for the newsletter and sponsors.
52:00 Outro and end of episode.
Show Notes:
â Inc Authority (LLC Formation)â
â Exit Five Communityâ
â Healthy Competition Communityâ
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Timestamps
00:43 Introducing of Julien Sauvage
01:57 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?
06:41 The Role of Boldness in Marketing
14:06 Event Branding Success at Clari
17:17 The Einstein Smart Speaker Flop
20:24 Reflecting on Dreamforce's Gimmicks
22:38 The Importance of Data in Product Marketing
24:43 Challenges and Realities of PMM
30:31 The Role of Copywriting in PMM
38:59 Final Thoughts and Farewell
Show Notes :
Julienâs LinkedIn
Content That Converts guide (by Devin Reed)
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Timestamps
1:00: Introduction of Pat Wall
5:00: Role of product marketers
7:00: CI and product marketing
8:30: Evolution of CI in Pat's career
10:00: Building a CI program
13:00: Effective sales enablement
15:00: Internal branding
17:00: "Torture Chamber" game
20:00: Engaging sales teams
24:00: Impactful enablement sessions
26:00: Leveraging top performers
28:00: Integrating CI and product marketing
30:00: Tips for building a CI program
32:00: Patâs future projects
34:00: Thank you and closing remarks
Show Notes
Patâs LinkedInHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.
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Timestamps:
00:52 Discussing Target Audience
01:40 Horror Stories of Target Audience
05:14 Challenges in Messaging and Segmentation
14:23 Examples of Poor Market Segmentation
21:49 Effective Segmentation Strategies
32:15 The Power of Storytelling
34:35 Understanding Your Audience
38:19 Innovative Research Techniques
Show Notes:
Mercury EqualsArc BrowserFigmaDevin ReedClayton ChristensenOur websiteHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.
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Timestamps:
0:00 The one word most miss in "product marketing" with Becky Trevino
00:16 Introduction and Hosts Banter
01:08 Introducing Special Guest Becky Trevino
01:55 Becky's Career Journey and Unique Perspective
02:49 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?
05:05 Defining Product Market Fit
07:44 Product Marketing Superpowers
10:12 The Art of Storytelling in Product Marketing
15:31 Torture Chamber: Tough Choices in Product Strategy
19:08 Should Product Marketing Live Within Product?
22:38 Building Strong Relationships with Product Managers
23:09 Navigating New Challenges in a New Role
24:50 Leading Commercial Reviews and Gaining Respect
26:03 Balancing Technical and Marketing Perspectives
27:55 The Role of AI in Product Marketing
33:33 Balancing Present Offerings with Future Roadmaps
Show Notes:
Becky Trevino LinkedIn
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Timestamps:
01:05 Dave's Journey and Podcasting Tips
04:18 The Importance of Product Marketing
06:16 Early Stage Marketing Strategies
13:29 Building Trust and Influence in Startups
20:24 Positioning and Messaging Challenges
24:42 Addressing the Decline in Win Rate
25:24 Importance of Executing Positioning
25:57 Casual Conversation and Personal Interests
26:58 Messaging Torture Chamber
27:31 Marketing Strategies: Brand vs. Content
29:14 Event Marketing Insights
30:59 Simplifying B2B Marketing
34:38 The Role of Podcasts in B2B Marketing
41:23 Conclusion and Upcoming Events
Show Notes:
Founder Brand
Dave LinkedIn
Dave Kellog Blog
Exit Five Community
The Exit Five Podcast
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Timestamps
00:20 Guest Introduction: Anna Borbotko
06:17 TomTom's Evolution and Market Strategy
10:25 Challenges and Strategies in Enterprise Product Marketing
12:48 Cold Outreach Pilot Program
16:27 Enterprise vs. Startup Dynamics
18:30 The Evolution of Software Buying
19:13 Challenges in the Automotive Industry
19:32 Simplifying the Buying Process
20:47 Sales and Buyer Enablement
23:25 Marketing's Role in Buyer Enablement
26:15 The Importance of Effective Collateral
29:44 The Torture Chamber
33:17 Anna's Initiatives and Final Thoughts
Show Notes:
Annaâs LinkedIn
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Timestamps:
00:00 Introduction and Host Introductions
01:18 The Importance of Training in Product Marketing
01:54 Identifying Unique Superpowers
07:18 The Value of Formal Education and Certifications
16:42 Applying Knowledge in Real-World Scenarios
19:41 Leveraging Data Analytics in Product Marketing
26:13 Continuous Learning and Networking
33:01 Conclusion and Newsletter Promotion
Show Notes:
Million Dollar ConsultingYi Lin Peiâs The PMM Dream Job Blueprint Ready for LaunchB2B Messaging CourseYerba MATTTEEEEEEHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.
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