Episodes
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Intro:
Shelly Elsliger, founder of Linked-Express, is a celebrated LinkedIn Trainer and Social Connection Maker. Founder of the #decidetobekind movement, she tackles online bullying and promotes a culture of kindness.
Recognized by the National Women Speakers and a Forbes contributor, Shelly is a voice for diversity and psychological safety in the workplace. In her personal time, she enjoys pickleball and supports animal welfare in Nova Scotia.
Writing a book, almost done, “From Connections to Protection: combating bullying on linkedin” - coming out in early 2025!
Stay in Touch with Shelly: https://ca.linkedin.com/in/selsliger
To learn more about Shelly and her Services: https://linkedexpress.ca/
Bullying on LinkedIn is a little bit more discreet and it's not in your face like it is with some of the other social media sites you have to be very diligent. If you're dealing with a bully, don't think anything goes past them. And just remember that they can just come up like a chameleon and, and, and change their spots.
Welcome to weirdos in the workplace. The podcast that celebrates authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose in our world of work today. I'm your host, Erin Patchell, and welcome to Shelly Ellslager, my friend.
Hi, Shelly. Hi, thanks for joining me. Thanks for having me. My pleasure. Uh, Shelley Elsliger is the founder of linked express. She's a celebrated LinkedIn trainer and social connection maker, the founder of the decide to be kind movement, hashtag decide to be kind. She tackles online bullying and promotes a culture of kindness.
She's been recognized by the national women's speakers and is a Forbes contributor. She's the voice for diversity and psychological safety in the workplace and in her personal time. She enjoys Pickleball, uh, and supports animal welfare in Nova Scotia. And Shelley, I was so excited just right before the show that you're going to be an author soon in early January, February 2025.
Um, book called From Connections to Protection, Combating Bullying on LinkedIn. That's amazing. You're so cool. I love you. It's great to talk about it, actually. Thank you. Getting it out there early. I like that. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, no, no, no. Um, I mean, you're probably one of the most prolific LinkedIn, uh, trainers that I've ever met.
Um, so, you know, that's pretty, I think that's pretty neat. You know, you're, you've deep dived right in. Yeah. I don't know my life without LinkedIn, to be honest. I, I, it's just such a big part of what I do and what I help other people to do and achieve. So I just feel it's just a part of my regular everyday life.
Every day, but. I've been using and promoting LinkedIn for a long, long time. Yeah, I actually love LinkedIn. I am not a fan of other social media platforms, mainly because I think, you know, the discussion kind of we're, we're going to be talking a little bit about bullying and online bullying today and, you know, and just being a, just a.
Big, big jerk all around, you know, people being jerks. Um, but I find like, like Twitter or X, you know, even like Instagram, Facebook, uh, Twitter, YouTube's terrible nowadays. You know, you can't look at a comment section without. Without just having it turn your stomach anymore, you know, um, anyways, we're going to go down that rabbit hole, uh, further, but I want to know, like, how did you get so invested in LinkedIn?
Like, tell me what that journey was like for you. So it's interesting how you know my relationship with LinkedIn became more than just the average person I mean I, I was an educator as a career development specialist I mean still am in many ways but that took up a big part of my career so there was.
LinkedIn had, like early on, had a contest and about what would you do, you know, if you were a LinkedIn trainer, how would you take LinkedIn and, and make LinkedIn something that would, um, improve, uh, somebody's, uh, life or a group of people's lives. You know what I mean? What would you do? And I had the idea that I.
Would create this workshop or series called LinkedIn and High Heels, and there's a story behind that by Hilton, but that I would create something for women business leaders called LinkedIn and High Heels and, um, to, to get them to rise up. So, you know, you can wear anything you want, but to rise up to the occasion, and how you could brand yourself effectively.
On LinkedIn and get over imposter syndrome and really create a space, um, as a woman leader on LinkedIn. And so when I presented this, and the funny thing is, is that I really didn't have an idea. So I presented it, won the contest, went to Calgary, ended up, you know, at this conference, which was kind of like the, what I won, um, ended up at a coffee shop.
I'm standing in line. I see somebody with the LinkedIn. jacket on. And of course, I know everything there is to know. So I decide that I'm going to pay a latte forward. And I'm going to, all of a sudden I got this idea, I'm going to call it a LinkedIn latte. So person orders and I come up and I say, I'll pay for that, you know, I'll pay that forward.
And so then I said, and here's your LinkedIn latte. And then anyway, we ended up sitting down and had an interesting conversation. Two hours later, when we should have been at the conference and networking, we were kind of like chatting. And then this whole idea came up that I, about what I had presented and why I had won and all of this.
You know, the whole story behind it, and it, it just, let's just say that coffee, and I think coffee is so powerful in creating relationships and opportunities, and I, I use the LinkedIn Latte thing ever since, but, don't trust anyone who doesn't drink coffee, by the way, yes, but it doesn't even have to be a coffee, it can be anything.
It's just that whole idea of social, like I call LinkedIn Latte everything, um, you know, but the whole idea of just. Using something to create connection. And with that coffee, I ended up being introduced to some key players at, at LinkedIn and people who liked my ideas and people who supported me and, and I ended up.
Just becoming kind of this. I don't, I don't want to say I was part of the LinkedIn team I wasn't at that point but it was somebody that they were looking at as you know somebody as a speaker somebody they could trust, because at that time we got to remember this is quite a ways back it doesn't happen today.
But they were looking for people who needed, who could, you know, spread the word and help people learn about their LinkedIn, uh, learn more about their LinkedIn experience and their LinkedIn profile and optimizing their profile because that's not really what LinkedIn Canada does. It's not what they do either.
Right. They're for sales. That's how they make money. So anyway, so it transpired and it grew. And then I ended up actually working with LinkedIn, like working with LinkedIn as an external liaison for University of Toronto for, um, uh, for a three, a three year period and actually working on LinkedIn learning and optimizing your profile.
And so that was a significant, um, three year stint of working with LinkedIn, like working in that capacity. So, yeah, so that's how it all transpired. So that's quite a ways back. And ever since then, ever since being. Having the opportunity to present what I would want to do with LinkedIn, um, ever since then, I, I've been a believer and I, I am just promote it wherever it can go.
And right now in 2024, it's no longer optional before it was, it's no longer optional today. No, I agree. I'm shocked that When I see people that aren't on LinkedIn, um, and I don't know how they, I don't know how they, they support their own careers, you know, I guess they're just happy with the job they have.
And that's great for them. And I hope that they never lose it. No, like that. And that is the issue because many people think that they only should be on LinkedIn for a job. If they're not looking for a job, then hey, let me get off LinkedIn and then go back if I need a job. And that creates so much havoc with your space on LinkedIn.
Mm-Hmm. , your, your algorithm. Mm-Hmm. , um, how your algorithm runs on LinkedIn and, and actually you're not, you're doing yourself a disservice because LinkedIn is actually a networking site. So if you're only on there to find a job, then you're taking away all of the, all of what has to happen on LinkedIn to lead up to, to that, you know, you're not building those connections.
You're not building trust. You're not showing your expertise. You're not working with the LinkedIn algorithm by, you know, only coming in when you think you should. And that's just totally like a myth. It's just because LinkedIn is at the end of the day, a net, a networking site and everything is grounded in.
You're like, let's put it this way. You're like ability score on LinkedIn is how well you network. Right. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Um, and it's, it's, it's like, you know, demonstrating your expertise anywhere else in the world to, you know, LinkedIn is just, you know, it's, it's, um, Kind of like a microcosm of the rest of the world, right?
It's just like condensed into one space. Um, so the opportunity is huge if you can take advantage of it by demonstrating your expertise and like sharing knowledge and ideas with people, you know, connecting with interesting people, getting curious. Um, I do find like, this is why I love LinkedIn so much.
It's because it's, it feels like the majority of people there, Have like kind of that growth mindset that you, you want to cultivate with your, in your network, or at least I do. The people in my network, you know, tend to be doing interesting things. They're curious. They're starting businesses or starting interesting projects or volunteering.
They're getting involved in their communities. Um, and I think that's amazing. And so when you told me that there's actually, um, this, this rather, you know, surprisingly large group of people that are actually using LinkedIn as like a tool for bullying, um, and then there's sort of like a dark underbelly. I was so surprised.
Um, can you, can you lead us into that a little bit? Yes, I mean, it's not, you know, I wish I could say that LinkedIn could hide itself from bullying. I, and I don't say this, and I talk about bullying on LinkedIn a lot. Um, and I don't say it to discourage people from using LinkedIn. I mean, I'm such an advocate for LinkedIn.
But I, you know, LinkedIn is one of those sites where people Go in sometimes blindly like they they want to go in believing that we're everyone's professional and everyone is going to take that professional space seriously. And, um, lift each other up and it is nice to believe that and for the most part, bullying on LinkedIn is a little bit more discreet and it's not in your face like it is with some of the other social media sites.
So, because of that, many people don't suspect it there. And, but it's, it exists, because at the same time. Naturally, there are people, jealous people, um, angry people, um, frustrated people and LinkedIn can be kind of a really good place for them to, um, take out the, those feelings. And, um, bully or harass people is a way for them to, um, gain power.
I mean, bullying on LinkedIn is no different than bullying any place. Um, bullies are, have, um, a need or a desire to, um, lash out at others as a way to mask their insecurities. And when you're dealing with LinkedIn in a professional site. You're dealing with a lot of power players, you're dealing with jealous colleagues, these are just the potential.
You're dealing with people who are very opinionated, and I mean that in a very exaggerated way. And you have people who are wanting the attention and not knowing how to get it in any other way. Right? And then you have what I call podmasters. And they are the, the ones that look like they're your best friends and act like they're your best friends and look like they're really looking out for you, but they're not.
And they, they go after you and control you in a way to, to, that looks to you like support or feels like support and inclusivity, but it's actually not because as soon as you make a wrong move. You're also from the group, and that can be very difficult for many people. So it exists. It can just be not as not as visible to people looking in as like YouTube, Facebook, Instagram.
Right. They can be much more visible. So, you know, my idea is that we have to know about it to do something about it. We don't have to know about it to run away from it because bullying exists everywhere. Um, but we have a chance by learning and opening ourselves up to understanding how it plays out to do something about it when we're in that situation.
And I think that that's what's important to me because I've had bullies in my life. And when I became old enough to, to understand it and to do something about it, I decided to become a true advocate and do something about it. And because LinkedIn takes up so much of my life. Learning about some of the stories that I have over the years, just kind of like those stories kind of did it for me like they kind of like the like where I was going with LinkedIn and kind of just created another space that I could that I found myself in been very passionate about because It's not something that's talked about that often when it comes to LinkedIn, but something that's really important to talk about.
A hundred percent. And I think it's, it's, you know, when you go on Twitter, when you go on YouTube, it's, you see the comments, it's kind of easy to ignore them in a way because you're ready for it. You know, you're ready. They're there, you're, you're kind of your guards up, you know, and I know sometimes I've posted some, you know, YouTube videos, like weird as in the workplace videos, uh, and there have been quite a few, usually they're in the DEI or, you know, inclusion space.
Which is very sad. And those are the videos that get targeted the most, you know, by online bullies and dissenters and people who are just philosophically opposed, you know, to, to being kind to others, essentially, you know, and actually including others and considering others. So, um, which it sounds crazy, but, um, you know, they're, they're, they're out there.
So, yeah, but, so, but, but the, the point is, um, you don't expect that on LinkedIn. Right. So, you know, I think that it is. harder to handle when you're not expecting it. You know, when you're, you feel like you're, you know, in a space where you can be authentic and let your guard down and then, you know, then it hits you and then something happens.
Um, and that's probably even, that's probably that much more traumatizing, I would think. It is. And, and it's happened to several people and, um, it's, it's so, um, impactful that I mean, you know, I could tear up at some of the stories that I've heard over the years because you, you know, most of us go into LinkedIn with so much trust and we're remote.
We're doing is we're going on LinkedIn because we want to open that open our, how do you say that? Our circle of trust. We want to open that by going on LinkedIn. And then what happens when we do encounter a bully, our, our, our power, our trust. Like it, it, we suddenly, suddenly something happens and we're just not expecting it.
We're not expecting that that's going to happen. Right? So, so what happens is it just may, it, it, everything it, that we've gone into LinkedIn with thinking about and imagining and, and that, that, that circle that we want so badly to, In large suddenly has been disintegrated with with with a remark or, um, with bullying or harassment and it closes people down it.
It it's sometimes unrecoverable for some people, they just can't come back, they leave the platform like it because it's so they just went in there with a sense of trust and they didn't suspect anything. So when that happened, it was so devastating that the result was devastating as well. And that's why I'm happy to be talking about it and writing a book about it.
Because. Awareness will is key awareness is that you go into LinkedIn, but you still have to have kind of and I call it like, you know, a bully alert system. And just be aware that it can happen because LinkedIn is not immune to bullying, LinkedIn is not immune to it. It's just. It may show up in different spots.
It may hide its ugly head. And it's easy to hide. Bullies can easily hide on LinkedIn because they can use What's there for them, like direct messaging, they can put things in like a really crowded, like, um, let's say a post does really well and they can take that post and manipulate it in some way, shape or form.
So there's just little, little way, there's, there's more ways to do it on LinkedIn that is not as outward as you would see on some of the other sites. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think it's very interesting, especially if you're someone who's new to LinkedIn, you know, that that phase that those first several weeks or months when you're on LinkedIn, or if maybe you're coming back, maybe you've had an account for a while, but you've never really been active, you know, and you decide to become active on LinkedIn, those are like really vulnerable moments, you know, like it's usually people are stepping way outside their comfort zone when they begin to become active on LinkedIn.
And so, you know, I can see that that would, that would be very difficult. Um, I have a lot of experience with bullying as a younger person. Um, we were bullied, bullied pretty profoundly, uh, you know, in, in, um, you know, when, in the younger years, um, And, uh, yeah, so I, I mean, I, I've never tolerated it with anyone.
It's one of my major triggers. You know, even I've, we've been walking with my husband on the street, you know, seeing kids bullying another kid and I will lose my shit, Shelly. I will literally like, I will, I will go off, you know, and, and I'm not like saying we should go yell at other people's kids or whatever, but it's happened once or twice.
You know, like it's just it's just such a big trigger like you should never treat people with disrespect. You know, I get it. I get it. Yeah. I don't I don't sit back and I, I can be pretty quiet, Matt, like my manner is kind of quiet. But when it comes to that I become somebody different. I, I, because I was bullied, um, and that's how the LinkedIn and High Heels came out, which you can talk about later, but I, um, yeah, it's a trigger for me as well.
And it's a trigger for me on LinkedIn as well. It's, it's like when I see it, because I became a CSI on LinkedIn for a year and reached out to people who had no, who were no longer active because I did a changemaker series for about three years where I, Every month, pretty much every month, I had a change maker series on people that I had become acquainted with or even friends with on LinkedIn.
And suddenly I saw people dropping off and not being there anymore. And so reaching out to them or finding them through another method and then hearing their stories. It just broke me. It really broke me because, you know, what happened when I was younger broke me as well. I mean, I recovered. I took that adversary and, you know, that adverse situation when I was, you know, 12 and 13, and I, I turned it around so that I could, you know, That I could do something good.
Um, but it breaks me when I see it. So when that happens, I, I become a different person because I can't just let it happen. Yeah. Yeah. I'm a psycho. Like they will never do that again. I guarantee you. I'm yeah, for sure. Um, and we're in it, you know, if my kids, if I see my kids even, cause I've got three, they're teenagers now and they're very well adjusted somehow.
Um, but, uh, you know, if I ever saw any of that behavior from them, even to each other or to other people, that was the last time they ever did that. Believe me, I can be scary. Like, you know, nothing scarier than a person who's been bullied and who's an anti bully. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And we have to, anyway, I think they need, they need people like us.
Yeah. So how can everyone kind of keep an eye out for this kind of behavior? And what do you do if you notice it? So there, uh, so there are different things that can show up on LinkedIn, which is a form of bullying. You know what? I always say, go with your gut. Cause I've been told that over the years, if it doesn't feel right, then it probably isn't right.
You know, if somebody, so I had a bully recently, people would not call that person a bully, but I am calling that person a bully. And the reason I say that is because I really don't put out anything on LinkedIn that I don't know something about, you know, I mean, they don't go there to be anybody else or I don't, you know, I have the, the things that I've honed the, the, you know, my expertise that I've honed.
And I usually really am very aware, and I plan what I'm going to share. And I share from the perspective of, of knowledge, like I, like I, I know, or it's an example or a story or some expertise. Sure. So anyway, this one person I've been in, you know, career development, like I said, a long time over 20 years.
And I put out something about, um, a resume and I, I told people not to post their resume on LinkedIn. And I'll tell today, do not post your resume on LinkedIn. Anybody can download your resume on LinkedIn, and that is a great way to say, okay, take my identity, you know, if you want to, that's it, you might as well just invite people post their whole resumes, like with their addresses and everything.
Yes. Okay. Yes. And they posted in the featured section or they posted. Now, if you post it for a recruiter in the private section, that's different. Nobody accesses the private place to for jobs because that's private. That's only between you and the recruiter, which is you're sending your resume in for a particular, you know, job that I'm not meant.
I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about like the featured section, people featured section to post the resume. And for people now, if you want to do a resume, but you with the understanding that none of your contact information are on there are no identity of work, you actually like work because that can go back to something like, you can't leave, you can't put a resume up there that could lead to any anywhere like you know, so.
But most people are not aware. So the majority, I can go on and if I find somebody with a resume, chances are that resume has not been edited in any way or docked any way to make it, um, okay, confidential, confidential and private. And you're just basically putting it up there, but you don't need to put it up there.
Somebody's going to ask you for your resume. If you're a job seeker, they're going to ask you, they need to, I mean, your resume, like your LinkedIn has, I mean, most of the qualities of your resume anyways, I would say, you know, of course your resume, I mean, it's your story, it's your journey, but at the same time, you're still doing your work experience.
You're still. Um, and you don't need to put your resume up there so I, I gave this advice. This one person who told me that's not true. People can put their resumes up there. And at first that was fine. People can have their opinions.
LinkedIn is built for sharing opinions, of course, but she was inviting people into the conversation, her, her friends, she basically telling me, no, it's not that way, and then it turned into. A direct attack at my knowledge. That's where it started to feel uncomfortable. Yeah. No kidding. I can't even imagine.
I didn't do anything at that time because bullies want you to react, right? So I know this, but sometimes it's so hard not. So I got caught up in reacting at the, at the beginning. And then as people came to support, um, her, uh, I kind of like, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Backed away a little bit. Okay. I could see that there was, you know, a bit of, um, unhappiness around the fact that I wasn't responding.
Okay. But I didn't respond. I let it go. I didn't block anybody at that point. I didn't report anybody at that point. I didn't really do anything about it. I just eliminated myself from the conversation. Hmm. Skip a week. I put out something else. Same thing. Challenging me. The same person? Same person.
Challenging me on another issue. That's so weird. Like why? So weird. But I was not surprised because as I said, if it feels that it's not right, you know, it's not right. And I wasn't surprised when she came back. So basically it got to the point that anything I posted, um, she would come back. With, with some kind of attack on what it was her, like, what were her qualifications?
Is she like a competitor or something? Like, what's the deal at all? Like any ter, which I was surprised about because like, you know, if you're in human resources, I would really never work with. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I mean, you're kind of like announcing that you're, you're a big old jerk, you know, you're a big old jerk.
And why would you be looking on LinkedIn in the featured section for somebody's resume? Like if you want somebody's resume, you know that that's private, that's private information. I mean, of all people. You know, of all, of all backgrounds. So it was really surprising for me, but I think it was more personal than anything.
And for, and not that there's any personal relationship, I don't have a personal relationship. I just don't think that either. She didn't like what I said, or just, I was the target that she decided to target. And, um, I became a target and I could see it. And so there came a point when I. Started to be feel very anxious when I would go and post on LinkedIn and I feel very comfortable on LinkedIn.
It's not a space that I feel. Uh, I feel good on LinkedIn. And so right away I said no. As soon as I feel like that, no, I can't go any further. So I decided to do what I had to do and I, I had taken screenshots I had taken because I was gonna block and, and, and, um, eliminate all the, those conversation.
Mm-hmm, . But you can't do that until you. Record everything, because LinkedIn will take, it'll only take seriously as much as you can provide, as much as the evidence you can provide. So I did all of that, I took all kinds of screenshots of the conversation, what was said, even, and so then at one point I even got a DM, a direct message from that person, saying that I should stop putting things out on LinkedIn that are wrong, I'm going to ruin my credibility, and it was horrible.
So I thought, no way is this going to be my experience on LinkedIn, so I'm going to get my, you know, I'm a bully advocate. I know what to do, and this is a perfect example to do it. And I just went about, I, I reported her. I sent in all the documentation, because when you block somebody, they can't see anything from you, and you can't see anything from them.
And so it's great. It's a lot more effective than just unfollowing or, um, you know, discontinuing the connection. Um, so that was important and I reported to LinkedIn and I do know that she got a warning of what she was doing. Because it started off with that one post, but then it ended up being three or four before I did anything about it.
And that was long for me, but there was kind of a reason why I let it go, I normally wouldn't, but I wanted to use it to teach people. And I wanted to, uh, and I, I'm using it as a, as a teaching moment, but when, you know, it didn't feel good at the beginning. And as much as, just as I expected, it became something and the more that it happened, the more, um, aggressive the, the, the conversations became the more, um, like, I'm going to say Sally, you weren't doing what you were told.
So, you know, yeah, like just really, really, it went from being just challenging to, um, To being aggressive. And that's what you understand a bully and behavior. And so I, um, and then I put a stop to it after, after that, but that was my most recent encounter. Yeah. I'm really sorry to hear that you had to have that experience.
Yeah, it wasn't pleasant, but at the same time, I know how to handle it. Right. Like I, I, and that's. I guess that was another reason why I started the book. I had been putting information away for the book. Um, that incident there told me that I had to start writing the book, get it out there because unlike, I mean, there are a lot of people being bullied and much worse than what that example much worse than what I was harassment.
Like that's legitimate harassment. Yeah. Yeah. People have been. You know, and we can talk about that, but there have been other, other examples that are much worse, um, in the end, some have been taken offline, some have been taken offline, the bullying continued offline, and so that could, that can be. You know, pretty, pretty detrimental and friend as such.
So if someone feels like they're being bullied, obviously, like if you feel like you're being bullied, reach out to somebody like Shelly or even myself, like I'm always happy to jump in and, and support people as well. But um, what, where, where do people actually report? Like how, how, what's the process look like if we're actually reporting something?
On your profile, there's actually different places that you can go to, but we'll give one for example. So if, so in my case. When that person, um, sent that, sent that message, as soon as she sends the message in the, the, the conversation, there are three dots on the top corner, right? If you hit that, those three dots immediately, you can do something.
So there will be different options. You want to report this? Do you want to block this? Do you no longer want to follow this person? It depends on what your relationship is with this person, but they'll ask you a different answer. Um, or do you want to block, uh, do you want to report? So I hit at that point, I hit, I want to report and then it'll give me different, different options.
Okay. And you have to pick the option that relates to the situation. Okay. So record, record everything first, like take screenshots. Um, but I asked you for it. Okay. They're going to ask you for it. Okay. So take, take the screenshots you need to take, report them through LinkedIn. Um, and then what are the consequences through LinkedIn if they're reported?
So LinkedIn will either. So there's different things. I mean, I think LinkedIn has a long way to go in, in terms, but I mean, you've got to remember that there's a billion, over a billion people, right? So it's not like they can implement anything and it. I just want to say that the blocking, I have to say this because a lot of people don't know this, but the blocking feature didn't come originally when LinkedIn started.
Blocking feature came in about 2014 when a woman who was being harassed on LinkedIn won a lawsuit against LinkedIn. Okay. And because of that lawsuit that she won. Um, LinkedIn had to implement the block feature, right? So, every time LinkedIn does something, it's, it's huge. It's big. So, they, it doesn't happen overnight.
So, the more that you have, the more they will respond to it. And, many people have been disappointed. You know, when I talk to people who feel that they've been bullied, they've been disappointed with some of the responses that come from LinkedIn. Like, it doesn't meet. The requirements. Mm-hmm. Of being considered bullying or harassment. And so then when that happens, if LinkedIn is not gonna support you, that means LinkedIn is not going to do anything on, on the end of that individual. Right? So that means it's in your hands to do something and that's when the blocking and anything like that else that you can do. Um, because if LinkedIn doesn't make a move and sometimes they don't.
Then it's up to you to just protect yourself in that way, and I think the blocking feature at this point is basically the feature that you have to not engage with that person. Now there have been some people, you know, there are people that go above and beyond real heavy duty bullies who will make fake profiles.
And when it's a fake profile, then, and you don't know, that's why when, when it comes to, um, weeding out these fake profiles, again, you can report it to LinkedIn. If it's a big profile, if you feel it's a big profile and there are really like, you can spot a big profile. If you really look. Because if that person has built a profile and they have two connections, uh, you know, there's certain little things like that that you can, that you can kind of get an idea if you look close enough.
So, you know, if you have had a bullying experience, and you just feel that that person may be somebody that's not going to stop or, and maybe you won't even know. Just remember when these invitations to connect are coming through, make sure to do your due diligence by looking at that person's profile, because you, you can be you, you can be responsible and you can find those spammy.
Um, those spammy connection requests and the, and, and, you know, there, I, I'd like to just give an example of what I mean. So there was a rabbit hole there. Sure. So there was a connection of mine. Uh, who is, you know, I was quite close to and a friend as well when I was living in Toronto and there was a situation, uh, with an ex and, um, the ex was stalking her on LinkedIn, New Worship, obviously, um, and it got pretty bad because there were comments made in order to have her fired from her job.
Um, there were all kinds of, like, insults and, um, DMs and, and as soon as she would block, um, him, he would just do a new account. So, um, she did screenshots of all of these accounts and eventually LinkedIn listened to her, but at the beginning they were not listening to her. So she took it in her, in her own hands, like she reached out to me, which I was happy about and said, You know, this is happening to me and it's, it's, it's ruining me like I, I can't sleep, I can't eat.
And I said, this is what you're going to do. This is what you're, you know, you have to make sure you're being diligent. You know, some people just accept connection requests, like, you know, they're falling from the sky and, and don't, It's not a, you know, connection request when you're dealing with bullying behavior, you have no choice, but to be diligent when you're looking at the connection requests that are coming your way, unless, unless you know, or unless you're pretty, unless you can look at the profile and know immediately that, that it's fine.
But if you're kind of doubt, then you don't want to do that. Use your gut instincts, have a bully because you know, bullies are smart. And even if you have mutual connections, that doesn't necessarily mean anything. Cause like, you're right. Some people just accept anyone, you know? So even if you've got mutual connections, that might not mean anything.
So you have to be very diligent. If you're dealing with a bully, don't think anything goes past them. And just remember that they can just come up like a chameleon and, and, and change their spots. And it's just the same bully just in a different, just in a different profile. But if you look deep enough, if you look, Diligent enough.
Most of the time they haven't had a long time to build their connections. So if you just look at that one piece of evidence alone, you know, and just, you'll get it. You'll get it. You'll feel it. And I think that that's just one thing you can do. Um, and, uh, anyway, that the person that I was referring to that had that bullying case, you know, Went off of LinkedIn for a year and a half after being bullied so much that she couldn't handle it, and it was so sad to, to, to see that happen to that degree.
And, and it's just so it's just important to be aware that it exists and it happens and, um, and people take it online because they can use something like your job, something that you're close to something that's important to you. They can use that and what they're going to go after. And that's what makes LinkedIn attractive for bullies in that way, especially when it comes to using your.
professional, the professional side to dig in and throw that knife or whatever you want to call it into the, uh, into the steak. I love it. I'm the worst metaphor person in the world, by the way. I mix up every single metaphor. So I was just waiting for what you were like, what's she going to say? Which, what are we throwing the knife into?
Um, I love it. Um, if there's, okay, so You, you work with a lot of people who are, you know, new to LinkedIn, you work with folks to get them from, you know, kind of a basic level to kind of an expert level. What is the best reason we've, we've talked a lot about like, you know, some trials and tribulations here with LinkedIn, but what is really the best reason to use LinkedIn in your opinion?
Community, the, the power of community. I mean, LinkedIn for me, well, it's all about community. I think. Communities are powerful. Um, and it's an incredible place to build community and I mean a global community. I'm a person who, you know, I've traveled, I, I just, I'm in diversity, equity, inclusion is another part of my, you know, portfolio, my, my expertise.
So it's so important for me for that global community and even moving, like, when you think about it so I've been, you know, Since I'm on LinkedIn, I've moved probably four provinces, and I don't have all contacts, even coming to, you know, I'm in Nova Scotia now, from Toronto to Nova Scotia, I didn't have a community here.
So what I did was I reached out. On linkedin and built that community so that when I came here, I could have some linkedin lattes with people and build at least that professional side and, and, you know, some have turned into be to be good friends and that provided me with the support because I'm a people person.
So, you know, it. Take that out of the equation and you're suddenly moving in moving somewhere where you don't have that community like I had an awesome community in Toronto, and an awesome community in Montreal and etc etc like, I mean I had my community. And so moving here with a business. And, you know, what do I do so actually LinkedIn was.
The key player in setting up that community for me, um, because I was able to come here and already schedule those kind of meetings and already feel like I know people like when we actually like, I think I had seven copies lined up when I got here. And when we actually met. It was like, there was no awkwardness, there was like no, we just, it was like we knew each other.
So there's a power in that, and when you're working with new grads like I have, you know, in university and college, like, I, They may be moving if they open their opportunities to moving to different places, this opens their opportunities for jobs. And so, but many fear going to the unknown that they built community.
And that's how I get them to break that fear of not moving somewhere else by building that community on LinkedIn so that they can continue building that community. offline once they get there. And so for me, it's, it's the power of, of community. Yeah. I think people need people like people need people. We are wired to need people.
We are wired to connect, um, and to support each other. And I think You know, people who don't think they need people probably you need, if you're out there and you're listening right now and you think I don't need people, I'm great on my own. I call bullshit because you will be a hundred times better if you have a good community around you to support you.
Um, I, yeah, I think that's true for everyone. Maybe you need community even more than everyone else does personally. Um, Yeah, and you be successful on LinkedIn, you need community because it's the community that's going to, to help you to grow. You know the power on LinkedIn isn't is really the second. So, you know your first connections.
Yeah. , but the power is really in the second connections because I can introduce you, I can tell somebody else, just like I was telling you earlier about different podcasts and, and, and yeah. And you know, I, it's the power of being able to share. It's the power of being able to, um, introduce It's the power.
It's, it's, it's, it's the power in building community for each other. Like, and so, yeah, it's just, it's so powerful. It's just, yeah, it's, yeah, it reminds me almost of that quote. Um, the more I know, the more I realize I know nothing at all. Right. The more people you connect with, the more you learn, the more you realize, like, wow, like my world, your world is so small.
There's so much out there. You know, so many, there's so many people, like a billion on LinkedIn. And you can't be successful on LinkedIn if you, if you go in with the idea that you're going to do it alone. Right. LinkedIn was not meant for that. It's a networking site. So they base everything. On your ability to connect and engage with people, they they based everything that like ability score that I told you about.
It's all based on on the power of community. It's based on the power of helping others. Um, that's what it's based on. So if you want your profile supported, if you want, you know, um, a stronger likeability score and to have a a, a stronger space and in LinkedIn, then the power is gonna rest. And how good you are with building those relationships, not doing it alone.
Yeah. It's just not the platform that was built in that way, you know? Uh, I mean, the mission of LinkedIn was for professionals to help professionals advance. So, uh, right there in itself, and that mission statement has never changed. Some people create their own mission statements for LinkedIn, but LinkedIn actually has its own mission statement.
Of course it does, yeah. They're, yeah, they're a business. And the mission statement is grounded in community. Um, yeah. Just before we wrap up, for starters, thank you so much for joining me today. Um, is there any way for people like, we're going to obviously add all your websites and your LinkedIn connection, like everywhere you could possibly get a hold of Shelly, we're going to put it in the show notes.
So never fear, you will be able to find her. Um, but do you have any actual like public trainings coming up or do you have any like information sessions or how can people learn more about how you can support them with LinkedIn? Yeah, I mean, right now, I mean, the best way is to, you know, to reach out on on LinkedIn, I have a services page there.
And, um, I mean, right now I'm in the thralls of this book and getting that done. So, yeah, I mean, and I've been visiting podcasts like this. And, you know, I, yeah, I mean, LinkedIn is always the best place to, to, I guess to connect. And because that's where I am and that's where I spend the majority of my time on social media I mean I know a lot of people will ask me what are your social media handles and.
I have to think for a moment to actually get there because on LinkedIn, I mean, among the other ones, maybe for social or connecting with family in New Brunswick, but other than that, LinkedIn is where I, you can get to know me without even Yeah, you can get to know me before we actually even speak. So, uh, that's the place to connect.
And I'm always happy to connect with people. Fantastic. Okay. Um, any, any final words, any, like, you know, just one more, a Columbo moment, just one more thing. I just want, you know, LinkedIn is, uh, is very powerful. And this, you know, what I talked about in regards to bullying and harassment is just a precaution.
It's just to say, you know, Don't go there blindsided. If you're looking for a job, it could show up with a potential employer. Uh, it can show up within your community. It can show up from a disgruntled colleague. It can show up with somebody who's just pure jealous of all your wonderful attributes. And just remember, it is a place with a lot of people, with a lot of diversity, which I think is amazing.
But at the same time, things can happen. It has a life of its own. So I just give that one piece of advice is that whether it's LinkedIn or any social media site, just go in with knowledge and go in with the idea that you're just gonna, that you know and understand what is there. And you're not going to go in and be blindsided, you're going to feel powerful.
And so if something comes your way, you'll do be able to do something about it just like I have and just like many people have. And now those people that have come back after being bullied are much stronger for it and much more confident and much more and much better at living LinkedIn life with that awareness.
And so it's actually something that is a good thing to know it's not something to be scared about it's something to say, I'm empowering myself I'm building confidence, and I'm educating myself. Thank you With all of the things that I need to know to navigate LinkedIn successfully and securely. And that's really what it comes down to.
And you're never alone. And you're never alone. And reach out. And reach out. You know, it doesn't have to be Aaron or it doesn't have to be me. There's lots of people within your community that will be helpful and, um, be, be able to just be there if you, if you need to, to answer or need some answers or need some guidance.
I mean, there are a lot of people on LinkedIn that have been there a long time, um, and, and know, uh, the ins and outs of. Getting help on LinkedIn. And so just use it. Um, and don't, and, and do use LinkedIn. Just remember that if you are, they just expect you to have it put the work in to, to provide any evidence or anything that can help your case.
And that, that would, that's not different from anywhere else. So if you're listening to this and you are not active on LinkedIn, consider this your sign that you need to be active on LinkedIn because everyone's got a cool story to share. That's true. Yes, and it's a great place to, um, brand and I, and, and as I said early on in the podcast, uh, LinkedIn is no longer optional.
It's, um, it's expected. So yeah, I mean, unless you're my husband and all you want to do all day is program and then everyone's just very happy for you to just sit in your little cave and program for 24 hours a day and that's fine. Nobody wants him on LinkedIn. Yeah, there are some people that will go on LinkedIn or don't believe they should have it should be on LinkedIn, but for the majority of us, we can benefit it benefit from it.
Right, right, right, right. It has been a pleasure, my lady. Thank you very much for joining me. I always enjoy spending some time with you. Thank you very much. Chat soon. Chat soon. Thank you.
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Welcome Laurie Fenske to "Weirdos in the Workplace"!
Laurie embodies a lifelong philosophy of learning from every experience, embracing each challenge as an opportunity for growth. In 2016, Laurie pivoted her professional focus towards her true passion—coaching. Today, as a MCC level ICF certified coach, she offers bespoke solution-based coaching across North America and Europe.
Laurie’s coaching sessions are energized and focused, aimed at significantly boosting productivity, enhancing leadership capabilities, improving team dynamics, and refining communication skills.
Stay in Touch with Laurie:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/lauriefenske/
https://www.instagram.com/fscgroup/
For more on Laurie and her Services:
http://www.fscgroup.ca
https://www.facebook.com/FSCGroupIncorporated
Welcome to Weirdos in the Workplace, the podcast that celebrates authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose in our world of work today. And I'm here with the lovely Lori Fenske. Say hi, Lori. Hi, Erin. Thank you for having me out here today. This is awesome. Awesome. Yeah. I'm super excited to have you on the show.
Um, so Laurie embodies a lifelong philosophy of learning from every experience, embracing each challenge as an opportunity for growth. And in 2016, she pivoted her professional focus towards her true passion coaching today as an MCC level, ICF certified coach. She offers bespoke solution based coaching across North America and Europe.
So I just want to pause there for a minute, Lori, because. As an ICF certified coach myself, you know, as part of the board of the ICF Ottawa, I'm extremely passionate about coaching. And you know, that cause we've worked working together and we've been supporting each other and have known each other for almost eight years now.
So almost since you started coaching, um, I just want to take a minute. To say congratulations for achieving that MCC level, because I know how difficult that really is. I've known people that have been going through that process and it is probably one of the harder things that you'll probably do, I think.
for recognizing that. Yeah, it was tough. Um, it, it is what it is and I'm glad to be on this side of it for sure. Yeah, definitely. Um, and the, for those of you who are listening who don't know what we're talking about, MCC is a master certified coach level with the ICF, the international coach federation. Um, and you re you need at least 5, 000 hours in order to achieve that.
2500 hours, 500 coaching hours. Yeah. Um, I feel like it's 40 continuing education credits. It's working with a mentor coach for at least 10 hours, um, for preview, previewing your, your client, uh, recordings, how you show up and then an exam at the end of it. So yeah, it was, it was, um, it was a long journey, but, uh, completely worthwhile.
I'm so grateful that I, that I've completed that. Yeah. And I know from a few other people, friends who've, who've gone through it, they say that the 2, 500 hours is like the easy part, you know, that's the easy part. It sounds like a lot of hours and it is, but really it's, um, it's just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to getting that certification, because you have to be like, so good at demonstrating those competencies.
And, um, just, you know, in that same vein. So, after I got through it, I had some ideas on how to set people up for success, because it is, you know, grueling isn't an exaggeration. And so I actually put together an MCC mentorship program that isn't just about. The recordings, because that's often what mentor coaching is, is listening to the recordings, giving you feedback.
But I've made it about everything, right? About the hours, the recordings, the exam, the competencies, all of it. Because I think that people should go in with eyes wide open. And I, I didn't necessarily, which I think was part of the, part of the big mountain to climb. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Your expectations need to be set, I think, in order to have the resilience you need to keep going.
Yeah. Right. It's like, I don't know if I remember when I was like pregnant with my first child example, some people can relate to maybe, um, I, you know, they say it's going to be nine months. And so, you know, you think that's the end date and then all of a sudden you're overdue and then like those last two weeks are literally torture.
Right. But if anyone, everyone told you it was a 10 month process that nine and a half weeks wouldn't feel or nine and a half months wouldn't feel so bad. Right. Right. Yeah, exactly. Setting expectations. Yeah, 100%. So, um, okay. So folks, we're going to really talk today about Um, coaching, coaching leaders specifically, um, Laurie, I, I, you know, I, I introduced Laurie, but I really didn't introduce Laurie.
So, you know, I've known Laurie for quite a while. We met, um, like I said, almost eight years ago. And Laurie, I think you're one of the most competent, um, driven coaches and resilient coaches that I've ever met, honestly. And I'm, I'm. I'm just, I'm not just saying that, you know, I don't just say stuff, right. Um, you have like a persistence and a, like, it's like a focus that very few people have, and I know that that's why your clients love you so much.
So, um, I really look forward to hearing what you, what all your thoughts are around leaders of leaders. Absolutely. Thank you so much. That means a lot. I have a huge amount of respect for you, Aaron. So that means a lot coming from you. So thank you. I appreciate you. Um, okay. So, you know, I'd love to like, let's begin with like the landscape right now, you know, um, we have a very complex world that feels like it's going very, very fast.
Um, I think a lot of people out there will resonate, you know, with that, like, You know, kind of like the constant scramble and we're always told, we're always like told that, you know, if we're not achieving some kind of work life balance, we're doing it wrong. Right. Um, what are the, what are the challenges that you're seeing leaders come in to you with, like, what are they struggling with in their core?
Well, um, you talk about work life balance and actually, um, I call it work life harmony because I don't know that those two are ever in balance, but if they can work harmoniously, so giving a little bit this week, getting it back again next week, and that for sure is something, and, and, um, You know, the craziness of remote.
So I'm sitting here in Sherwood Park, you're sitting there in Ontario, um, and yet I feel like you're across, you know, my desk from me. With that, um, with that remote work comes just this expectation of never turning it off, right? Never turning it off. And, and so I do see work life harmony a lot. And, um, I, I talk to people about, you know, um, Getting selfish, right?
Like, pre COVID, nobody expected you to work 14 hour days from, from your home office. You know, you were commuting, you were socializing, you were doing all of this. So, we do talk a lot about, about slowing down to, to kind of get forward. But as it relates like to the executives or the leaders of leaders that I'm seeing, you know, there's kind of, um, I guess, five top competencies or skill sets that people seem to be really gravitating towards.
Emotional intelligence and, um, emotional intelligence isn't just a buzzword. You know, it's, it's something where people really need to know, um, how to manage their personal emotions. They, they need to know how they're showing up. They need to understand the dynamics of those in their, in their, in their life.
In their circle, um, communication, you know, being a visionary and, and not only having the visionary, the vision in your own mind, but being able to communicate it transparently and get people energized by it, um, elevating performance, nobody wants to do poorly, but how do great leaders get the best out of themselves, their team, the organization as a whole.
Um, I think self awareness is huge. The ability to really understand, um, ourselves, but, but also how do we interact with others, then how are we showing up with them? Um, and then the resilience, uh, you know, I talk a lot about, you know, You want to work with a leader who can get through a storm, but not not know what to do after the storm is a fail, right?
They need to have a strategy. They need to be forward thinking, um, nimble, flexible to to really come out the other side with a plan in place that they can then communicate and, you know, get embraced and continue and continue forward. What kind of feelings do leaders, um, at any level, any of your clients have when they're coming to you for support?
Um, I think a lot is humility, understanding that, um, there is, you know, coaching is not psychology. I mean, it's, it's, it's not therapy. It's a partnership. And my style of coaching is, uh, you know, through powerful questions, finding solution. So people, I think first come with a sense of humility, um, having to reach out a bit of vulnerability, which I think is actually a very attractive characteristic in a leader.
Um, and I wouldn't say hopelessness, but an, an awareness, like I can't keep doing what I'm doing. How do I find something new to do? Right. Yeah, they found they've hit, they've hit the end of their capabilities or the capacities in some way. Yeah, they know they need help. Uh, do they always know they need help?
Not necessarily, not necessarily. Um, in some cases I'm brought in to an organization and people are chosen to be part of a coaching program. Coaching programs are often part of a reward system, a merit system. You're seen as an overproducer, um, you're seen as a high producer or high achiever. And so coaching, you know, is put in front of you to just elevate you even more.
But sometimes people come to it not understanding that, not understanding it's a time of celebration, but rather it's like, Oh, are you the principal? Cause I feel like I'm at the principal's office. Um, and they're, you know, what coaching. My style of coaching is not for any, for everyone. Um, and so there's a lot, some coaches call it a chemistry meeting, um, but that get to know you, you know, I want to hear about them.
I tell them my background. I tell them my belief, what, how I see coaching, my belief in coaching. Um, How I got to be, you know, on this side of the desk, and if it's not a fit, then I'm grateful. I have quite, um, a network of coaches that have different styles than I, and I introduced them to somebody else, because if it's not a fit, it's not going to work for anybody.
No. Um, yeah, definitely. Like with a positivist group, we have a coach fit guarantee, like a coaching guarantee. So, you know, if, if it's not a good fit, you know, we'll restart your program with a new coach, or if we don't have a great coach for you, we'll find one. Right. Um, and I think, I think it's so important and I think it's.
Um, and I feel like we learned this the hard way, or I've learned this the hard way that if you don't get a good fit coach fit, then it, it, it really, you, you can't have a successful program at all. I think it's yeah. Like second only probably to the client's own desire for coaching, I think. Um, yeah, yeah, I always tell my clients, like, we're going to work hard, we're going to do some heavy lifting and we're going to have some fun because I never want a client to be like, Oh, my God, I'm seeing Laurie today, like, you want it to be something that they look forward to that they're excited to share their achievements with.
And I have certainly, um, hung on to clients too long. I know that it's part of the learning and building out a successful coaching practice. So, um, yeah, that fit is just so important. So important. And, uh, usually it's better to quit too soon than too late. It's something I've learned more recently and still probably going to be learning, you know, for the rest of my life, most likely.
Yeah. Yeah. There are some clients that just coaching isn't for them. That just isn't. They don't, if they don't believe in the value of it, um, it's not going to work. Not because it's, you know, um, um, like a magic wand, but you have to, I don't push it. I don't pull I'm shoulder to shoulder with my client in their coaching journey.
And some people need to be pushed or pulled. And that just, I don't think that that works as well either, but yeah, there's a real element of autonomy and self determination when it comes to coaching. And the client has to drive the process. And that's definitely part of an ICF mindset as well. And I see if, um, Certified coaches mindset.
So, um, do you have any good stories? Like obviously not naming any names, but I'm so curious, um, to hear a little bit about, you know, some of the experiences you've had with clients and I'm sure folks listening to this would love to hear, you know, what, what are the kinds of, you know, Developments that you've that you've observed.
Yeah. Great question. Aaron and the one that comes to mind and I have her permission because as you know, coaching is 100 percent confidential. Um, but I do have her permission to share this story just because I think it's really cool. So I often, um, at the onset of. coaching. We'll ask a client, you know, what's the legacy you want to leave?
Like, how do you want to be known? Because I think we get so committed to like the here and now we forget to think longer term. And, um, she worked in a, in a male dominated, more seasoned male dominated environment. And she was the only female at the C suite table at that point. And so I asked her the question and, and invited her to reflect on it.
That was kind of, you know, an action item for her between now and, and when we met the next time. And she came back into the, into the meeting. Um, and, and she was so excited and which made me so excited. And she said, Lori, I came up with my legacy. I know what I'm building. I know what I want to build. And I was like, okay, what is that?
She said, I want to be known as a powerhouse. And, and I just thought that that was so cool. And, and so as we got talking, you know, as the only female, she would be asked to get coffee or take notes or, you know, whatever, just not, I don't think from a mean perspective, but it just made sense to the other people around the table and she said, I want to be a powerhouse and I want to work on characteristics that would build a powerhouse.
She said, because. I don't want them to be scared of me. I don't want them to say I'm scared to ask for coffee. She said, I wanted them to respect me so much. It wouldn't even cross their minds. And, um, she's still an existing client. She's, uh, you know, been with me typically coaching programs or, you know, about a year.
Um, so she's, she's been with me for that length of time. And it is so exciting to see. I think that's a really beautiful thing. And that's why I'm so happy that, you know, her show up as a powerhouse and the success that she's having because of her mindfulness and intention. I'm being seen as a powerhouse.
That's beautiful. What a transformation for her. Um, I I would love to be a fly on the wall in one of those meetings and watch her in action and see what, like, what kind of behaviors are she demonstrating, you know, as a result of that coaching with you, that would be so interesting. How do you make someone respect you so much that they wouldn't even think about asking for coffee?
It's beautiful. And of course, you know, we dug deep into what characteristics. How are those characteristics displayed and how do you know that you're displaying them, you know, coaching? I mean, we, we like to take one piece to set people up for success and really focus on that, um, change of that one habit of how she was showing up and then change something else about how she was showing up.
And yeah, it's been a lot of fun, uh, really a lot of fun to watch her for sure. And it probably takes you back to the five, uh, your five. Yeah. Um, top five behaviors or what are we, what are we calling that? Um, I think the leadership competencies. Okay, sure. Yeah. Um, you know, I, I recently was doing some research for a project that I'm doing in my private practice and, and Forbes even has, you know, like research on this about, you know, what leaders are struggling with and, and it felt affirming that the people I work with.
Yeah. This is, you know, global, right? I don't just hear it from one or two clients, I hear it from every client in my portfolio or most clients in my portfolio, but this is like a global thing. Oh, it totally is. Yeah. This is a human thing, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're all experiencing the world right now. And I don't know.
Like leadership is leadership almost anywhere. I don't know. I mean, obviously there's certain cultural competencies that you need to learn if you're interacting interculturally or in, in different cultures, but, um, but the like people are people, right? Like emotional intelligence is emotional intelligence.
It doesn't matter where you live. Well, and I think we're all leaders, and that's why, you know, I kind of articulate, um, the clients most prominent, um, or most predominantly in my, in my portfolio are executive, like C suite, um, or leaders of leaders, because I think we all lead. I mean, I, as an individual contributor, I can still lead, I can still impact.
But I think it's leaders having to be mindful of their own selves. But also, you know, all of those around them and how they are leading them to greatness. Now, you, we started to talk a little bit about respect in that previous client example that you had. Um, something I think a lot about lately and you know that I've been a kind of evangelist of leadership development, um, since certainly since we've known each other, uh, and something that crosses my mind every now and then, and I'm kind of curious what you think about this is do we know how to lead leaders?
You know, do. Do leaders know how to lead people? If every single person's a leader, do we know how to lead leaders? You know, and where does the, you know, one of the things, one of, I can't remember what the quote was, but it's something like to be a great leader, you need to be a great follower. And I think sometimes, you know, there's a tension that I, that I see a lot of the time, um, in organizations around, you know, the, you know, receiving feedback.
So leaders are receiving feedback. Sometimes they're really good at taking feedback. And they're very, um, empathic, right. They're trying to serve everyone and stretching themselves then. And, you know, we know that we can't make everyone happy. Right. Um, and then people who are at the individual contributor level, often younger employees have a lot of ideas, you know, and I remember I was the same when I was a younger employee.
You know, I, um, I thought I could do everything better than my bosses. And then it's only through experience that I realized like the actual complexity of decision making within organizations is way harder than you think it is. Probably there's a lot more that you need to consider, um, than, than you realize you do.
And so are we teaching people to become leaders too soon? Do we know how to lead people who believe that they are leaders? That's kind of the So my background was completely in financial services, where I spent my, my corporate Canada career and, and there was a tendency in financial services because financial services is so much about sales that people can sell really well, well, obviously they can manage, they can lead and that's not always the case.
Right. Um, you can have some of the top sales people in the world who are promoted into roles of, of, you know, people responsibility and and they don't do it, um, They don't do it. Well, or it takes them a while to get up and running with it. A bunch of different scenarios. Um, so I think, you know, are we are we getting people to be people leaders too soon was kind of your question.
And I think we are if we aren't setting them up for success, we can be if we aren't setting them up for success and really understanding the expectations made what's expected of me as a leader. Um, and, and being, um, being so involved in their success as their leader. That that you really you're you're.
You're, you're training the habits that, that they'll need, but they also have to have that internal desire to build out those habits as well. Yeah. And context, like, I feel like we need so much more context now than we used to in roles. How do you feel about that? Um, from, you mean the roles, responsibilities, expectations?
At every level of the organization. I feel like context is, is. Um, much more necessary than it used to be. Not only because people expect it, you know, people expect, you know, I want to know why everything, every decision made, but like they need it almost, you know? And I think that you can offer people an understanding without having to divulge because I mean, transparency, yes, you, you need transparency, but you can't be transparent about every single decision.
Right and and sometimes there is stuff that can't be talked about. Um, but I think if I and again, it comes down. Really? I hate to keep, you know, bringing it back to those top 5, but if if I'm a leader and I'm communicating and I'm helping my teams understand this is all that I can communicate, but this is legitimately.
I think that people will respect that and, and they'll be okay with, we don't know more because there's that trust and credibility that's been established through all of those, you know, different, um, relationship building exercises as well that a leader has to go through. What's the best way for a leader to, you know, to, to actually get the true respect of their team?
Um, there's so much that, how much time do you have? Um, I think it's a little bit, I think it's a little bit around, uh, you know, understanding themselves. So self awareness. Understanding their strengths and areas of development. Um, but I think it's, it's really building that trust incredible relationship right out of the gate and getting to know people.
They're not just a team member. They're not just an individual contributor, but. How do they fit the overall mold or the overall necessity or needs of the organization? I think it's relationship building first and foremost. I worked for a brilliant man one time, just a brilliant, brilliant guy. It was like my first day.
And he said, okay, Lori, just help me understand when I send you an email, do I have to be all like fluffy and ask how your day is? Or can I just tell you what I need? And, and, you know, as silly as it sounds, If he had spent a bunch of time asking, like how my day was, I don't need that. I don't operate well under that.
And so he just kind of cut right to the chase. And I think if I know that someone needs a bit more, how was your day as a leader? I should, I should give them that so that I can help them show up as the best version of themselves. But I think it's okay to ask the question. How do you want me to communicate with you?
Right. Yeah. It's like, what is it? The, um, the platinum role. Treat people how they want to be treated, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, something you just said there triggered something for me. Oh yeah. You're not like a super touchy feely person necessarily. Like you don't need that. The fluff it's like, let's just get to the point.
And that is something I've always appreciated about you because I'm the girl who has, who writes the email out and it's like super direct. And then I have, before I press send, I have to go back and put. all the fluff in to the email so that I don't seem like a cold robot, um, or whatever. But, and there's very few people that I can just, you know, de mask, I think, right.
Because it's not an attitude. It's not, um, for me, it's not, um, it's not a negative. It's just, it's just, it's just my first instinct. And I, I'm, I'm like a pretty chill person, you know, that. But the whole point I'm making by this is you're not a fluffy person. I'm not a fluffy person, necessarily. Although I pretend to be one on TV and, uh, we are both huge proponents of emotional intelligence.
All that to say, well, intelligence is not fluffy, you know, and I would love for you to just say a few words about that. Well, I think that, um, there's a difference between being emotionally, um, intelligent and, and, um, hugging people, right? Like, like, I think you have to show up emotionally dynamic enough to the people that you're speaking with.
Yeah. But you don't have to put, you know, flowers at the end of an email. And, um, my style and, you know, there's a million different kind of, um, assessments out there. My style is very much Uh, in one assessment, it's called a pioneer. So if you think of the word pioneer, what is, what does that look like?
Right? And that's, that's entirely me. And obviously, coaching is not about directing. It's not about leading. It's not about bossing. It's, it's about partnering. And so I do have to, and I don't waver on my own belief system. But I do have to temper my directness with certain clients. Um, and, but we talk about that, right?
Um, I had sent an email to a client and after I sent it, it was like, Oh, that might've been a bit, that might've been a good one for Aaron, not such a good one for this client. Right. And so I just followed up and said, look, like, sorry, if that sounded, um, abrasive or whatever word I used, I said, I just, I wanted to get my thoughts over to you.
And I just did it, you know, perhaps not as completely as I could have. And I apologize if that was offensive. And let's talk about it the next time we meet, because why would I run from that? Right? And, um, she actually wrote back and said, no, no, that's that works for me. That works well for me. But I think if I was in a leadership position and I did that, and I didn't have the vulnerability to go back and say, oops, sorry, let's talk about this, or the self awareness to even know that you did it in the first place.
Well, okay. Yes. Yeah. But that's where leaders can fail. Yeah. I know that wasn't right, but let's not talk about it. Maybe it didn't go noticed. Oh, it went noticed. All right. Right. Your team is going to notice stuff, but you notice everything by the way, but step in pretty much. Yeah. Have the conversation, right?
Have the conversation. And I think that's what, that's what leaders need to leaders of leaders, executive, they need to do better at having conversation.
Holy moly. Well, I mean, it's so, it feels like especially certain sectors, uh, and certain industries that can be really difficult for a lot of people. Like I've heard from men in particular. You know, and, you know, I feel like this is just sort of like a, a matter of context and maybe some training and whatever, but, you know, I've, I've, I've heard from men who say that they're actually kind of afraid to say something wrong.
You know, they're afraid they're going to step on a landmine. Um, I don't think, I think it's, you know, we need practice. We need to, you know, um, what, what do you, what do you say to people who are worried about stepping on a landmine in the workplace. Um, my go to is always what's the best possible outcome from that conversation.
What are you looking to achieve? Yeah. And if you can articulate that at the onset of the conversation. So this is what we need to talk about. Um, does that make sense to you getting agreement? That's going to keep you focused on what you do need to talk about and and potentially not always, but potentially keep you away from the landmines.
Right. Um, it is, it, it is, I would say, a far more, uh, sensitive time in, in corporate wherever. Yeah. Um, and, but I, I think it's, it's the talking about it, right? And if, if you do stand on a landmine, don't run, talk about it. Wow. Don't know where that came from. I. Apologize. Be sincere. Right? Yeah. I don't think anybody I know, I can't imagine people going into a conversation wanting to stamp on landmines.
So when it happens, take responsibility. Oops. We're all leaders. We're also all human. We've already talked about that. Right? And so how do you recover from that? I think communication is, you know, a powerhouse diamond that isn't utilized enough. Yeah. Mm hmm. And I sometimes wonder like reputation, like, you know, I think this is probably a time where reputation is so important, like your professional brand, because if you have a reputation for honesty, transparency, for being direct, like direct, but kind, you know what I mean?
Like those. There's no question that you're giving those things, those qualities. Totally. You can, you know, when, when you, when you screw up. Because we're all apt to at some point, you're probably gonna give you a given a little more grace, you know? Yeah. Well, it comes down, I think you're into that trust and credibility.
Yeah. So if you have, and we have a. a solution focused selling program that we facilitate. And it talks a lot about building trust and credibility. If you've got that trust and credibility set up. Build with a client, they'll tolerate some errors. Yeah. If you don't, they'll have like, uh, just a zero tolerance.
And so spending more time and that's what I said about, you know, leaders, like stepping into leadership, step, spend time communicating with your team, understand them, build that trust and credibility. Cause with that will come some grace. Yeah. Absolutely. plane. So how do you know if someone calls you and they're like, you know, I'm thinking about coaching, you know, how, how can it support me?
Whatever. You're having that initial conversation. How do you know, um, when the coaching, when they're, whoa, why, where am I talking? How do you know if, if they're at the right place, um, in time for coaching, like, how do you know that they're ready? Um, there's a lot of, um, information that can be gathered in that initial phone call or initial email.
Um, but we have a, we've just come up with just, we've, we've just completed this coaching readiness assessment tool, and it's an online assessment tool that that really digs into more, but specifically those 5 areas of focus. And if there's a gap and I have people way, I'm surrounded by people way smarter than me that could do the coding on this.
So it was not me. Um, but it'll, it'll come back to you and say, okay, here's where you, you scored here. Here's your assessment results on those 5 areas and click here to, to, you know, set up a 30 minute conversation with Lori. And that, you know, That tool partnered with that 30 minute conversation is eye opening for both myself and the prospect of prospective client.
Yeah, totally. Um, so I think that's amazing for starters. So we'll definitely have that in the show notes. So folks who are listening, um, make sure that you look in the show notes and take Lori's evaluation, especially if you're curious about coaching. Absolutely. And, and by the way, I think, I think that, uh, this is probably like a fair warning.
Everyone has gaps. Like everyone. No, no. Remember I met that person. She had no gaps. Oh yeah, yeah. That's right. Yes. Yeah. Sorry. Laurie met one person who had no gaps whatsoever. Yeah. Um, there's one person. But if you're not that one person, then you, um, by the way, you have gaps. And so do I, my first, the first leadership 360 that I ever did was like soul sucking.
I'm not perfect. This is awful. You know, and then you sit with it and you process it and you realize, yeah, maybe there's some truth in this. And, you know, people like the 360s, I love those because golden nugget after golden nugget after golden nugget. And if you can get the perspective of others in a, in a respectful and honoring manner.
Why wouldn't you take that? Right. Yeah. Um, I've done some 360s that were, they were, they were tough. And, and people will respond one of two ways. This is a dumb idea. Why did we even do it? Or what am I really seeing here? What can I do? Laurie, let's build out and that's, you know, the 360s build out a lot of coaching conversations because what do we know now about the perspective of others?
Whether it's your truth or not, that's not what's here. It's the perspective of others and how do you have to show up slightly differently to change that perspective. It's a powerful conversation. I love those. Well, I love all the conversations, but I really, really, really like the 360. Oh, yeah. Yeah, the 360s are a lot of fun.
And I know sometimes they get like kind of a bit of a bad reputation because they can be done poorly. I think there is. That is possible. Um, so if you're out there thinking like you either hate 360s, you probably have just experienced a bad one. Um, and if you're thinking about a 360, make sure you do your due diligence and ask some questions about it first in the process.
And if you have any, uh, questions, obviously Lori and I are happy to help with that. Yeah. Um, but yeah, no, I think it's a super eyeopening, uh, conversation for sure. All right. So my final question for you, Laurie, is, um, if there was one thing that you want people to know about a co taking a coaching program, and especially if they're a leader, what's the most important thing they need to know to prepare themselves?
Only one. That's what I'm trying to sort through. Okay, I'm going to say one, but I'm going to filter in like 14 other ideas. Okay. Right, right, right, right. No, no, no. So you have to understand that coaching is really about changing a habit system. So how do you habitually show up as a leader today? What slight adjustments do you make to show up slightly different tomorrow to have a slightly different outcome?
Um, it's not losing 20 pounds in a week. This is a slow and steady and very intentional. process with unbelievably huge ROI at the back end of it. Yes. Um, unbelievably huge ROI. I've personally gone through that. Uh, I hate the T word, but transformation, you know, it's overused. Um, but that personal development process and coaching literally changed my life.
Like, yeah, literally changed my life. Yes. There's a quote by Michelangelo. And I don't have it right in front of me, so I'm going to butcher it a little bit, but it's something like I saw an angel in the marble and I chiseled to set it free. We all have angels within us, but it's meaningful conversation.
impactful discussion that will allow us to find it to really impact others. And, and what a powerful position that is. Absolutely. If you can believe, like truly believe to your core, you know, that you are a valuable, beautiful, powerful human being, like, you know, how much is that worth to you? Right. How much could that be worth?
Yeah. Um, yeah. Thank you so much for coming. Thank you so much for inviting me, Erin. I was very excited not only to reconnect with you, but just to be part of all the beautiful work you're doing. I, I watch you from the side and all the things, all the balls you have in the air. You just continue to make impact daily.
So thank you for what you do. Oh, I appreciate you so much. Thank you, Lori.
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Episodes manquant?
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In this #throwback episode of Weirdos in the Workplace, Erin interviews Eleanore Eaves, a brilliant strategist, writer, and coach, about executive presence.
Timestamps:
0:00 - Introduction and upcoming podcast announcement
2:00 - Eleanore's background and introduction to executive presence
5:00 - Building and nurturing executive presence
9:00 - Eleanore's personal evolution and role models in leadership
13:00 - Diversity in executive positions
15:00 - Advice for accessing leadership positions
16:00 - The role of appearance in executive presence
17:00 - Closing quote and final thoughtsKey Points:
- Executive presence is about personal brand, confidence, strategic mindset, authenticity, and personal power
- It's not just about appearance, but how you present yourself as a leader
- Building executive presence requires honest self-assessment and identifying areas for improvement
- There's no one-size-fits-all approach; executive presence should be tailored to individual strengths and organizational fit
- The importance of diversity in executive roles and strategies for accessing leadership positions
- The value of finding a sponsor who speaks about you in rooms of power
- While character is crucial, appearance still plays a role in executive presenceThe episode concludes with a powerful quote: "She remembered who she was, and then the game changed,"
Don't forget to stay weird, stay wonderful, and don't stay out of trouble!
Contact Eleanore Eaves: Website: eavescoaching.com
Stay tuned for Erin and Eleanore's upcoming podcast on modern leadership and decision-making!
Script
Erin: [00:00:00] Welcome my friends to yet another episode of weirdos in the workplace, the podcast that celebrates authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose in our wacky and wonderful world today. I'm your host, Erin Patchell. And this week we're doing things a little bit differently. We are going to have a throwback episode.
Back in 2023, your favorite episode was on executive presence with Eleanor Eves, the wonderful, inspiring. Amazing. Eleanor Eves, my friend, also one of my colleagues on the ICF international coach federation, Ottawa board amazing person. And we dive into the strategic side of executive presence how to be your full self in today's complex business environments.
And I'm really even more excited to share with you that Eleanor and I are starting yet another podcast to be titled a couple months from now. We're going to be launching this and it's all about our modern [00:01:00] and complex leadership environments, how to make really hard decisions as leaders, and how to avoid the kind of herd mentality or echo chambers that, that sometimes As human beings, we can tend to fall into and really elevating the thinking and the context through which we're making really good decisions as business leaders.
So that's what we're doing. I'm really excited about that partnership. And we're just going to be dripping out a little more information leading up to the launch. And I'll leave you with a quote as I often do on Weirdos in the Workplace. This one is by Lily Tomlin, the amazing Lily Tomlin.
And Lily says, the road to success is always under construction. And isn't that true? So without further ado, stay weird, stay wonderful, and don't ever stay out of trouble.[00:02:00]
All right, folks, let's get started. So Eleanor is one of the most interesting people that I know. She's a brilliant strategist, writer, and coach. Her resume includes 15 years working For profit and non profit organizations, London School of Economics, King's College London, and the Government of Canada.
Eleanor founded her own consultancy, Eve's Coaching not that long ago. Hey? Correct. Yeah. Yep. And I like to think you do things a little bit differently. I like to think so too. So I'm really glad that you're here to talk about the subject executive presence, because, between my blue collar upbringing and my ADHD, I feel like I've definitely had to learn the hard way about the subject.
And to be honest, I feel like I [00:03:00] still struggle with it a little bit, even though I've been in, and been in business development sales for a long time. To me, it is still, it's still like putting on a bit of a mask. So I love to just hear, how did you learn about this and how did it become such a strong focus for you?
Eleonore: Oh, darling, come on down. No. You would be the perfect person to be covering this topic. In a nutshell, executive presence is not just about how you look or your background or any of that, right? It's your personal brand. It's your confidence. It's your strategic mindset. It's your authenticity. It's your personal power.
It's everything combined and your background and anything, you might have experienced in the past That shouldn't really play into it unless it has made you who you are today in the form you want to be. So that's what we're going to be talking about when we discuss executive presence, is what kind of person do you want to project?
What kind of leader do you [00:04:00] want to be? And what does that look like for you? Because everybody has to do this a little bit differently. And as you said, how did I come about today? to doing this? I always thought, growing up that executive presence was about a look,
less
Eleonore (2): about the character and less about the individual.
But what did executives look like? To be perfectly honest, when we were growing up, not to age us, at that point in time, neither of us would have really made up the majority of executives. Unfortunately, we still do not today as well, but we're making some changes.
Erin: Definitely. I want to
Eleonore (2): be.
Erin: Yeah.
No, I was just going to say I'm really glad to hear you talk a little bit about like authenticity and bringing your personality into it because I feel like that's something that I definitely preach about a lot and I'm glad to hear that it's not just my imagination that this is, that this is [00:05:00] scaling into positions of power.
Absolutely.
Eleonore (2): Absolutely. This is why you'd be a great coach in this. I'm serious. You've absolutely mastered it from the very first day I met you. I remember just being in awe, right? You have this natural way of communicating with people and connecting. And that's all part of the executive presence.
It's how you're presenting yourself.
Erin: You are so sweet, honestly.
Eleonore (2): No, I'm just very honest. I call it how it is.
Erin: I appreciate it. Yeah, so obviously it's no secret that executive presence is really important to building a leader's credibility and, people listen to you differently and consider your opinions differently.
So tell me a little bit about how to, how do you build that? How do you nurture that in yourself?
Eleonore (2): First, take a look at your current state. Really have a very raw sense and understanding of who you are, [00:06:00] right? It really does require some honest self assessment and awareness. Because at the end of the day, you're only kidding yourself.
Then with coaching with myself or any other executive coach, what we would really look at is to identify areas of improvement. And by that, who do you want to be? How do you want others to view you as a leader? And even if you're not a leader today, what does that look like for you down the road?
Right?
Eleonore: So
Eleonore (2): even if you're not in an executive role today, but you want to be in the future, how do you project yourself so other people intuitively view you as the right fit? Not because of your gender, or your race, or anything like that, because I know we, that, that could be a completely different conversation as to, the executive makeup of all of that.
But in terms of how you present yourself, what does that look like? Not just in terms of your clothing as well. [00:07:00] But what kinds of words are you using? What's your strategy? When people look at you, do they view you as being diplomatic? As being out there? What is the approach? So then we, based off of that, we find the areas that you could improve upon.
We develop a strategy to get you there, an approach. We practice it, we tweak it as needed. Then we celebrate your successes once you get to that point that you are truly satisfied with it.
Erin: That's very interesting, actually. I like I'd never really thought about. Aspiring to an executive role in terms of, your personal style.
So just to clarify I've got a very unique personal style, so that I may not be suited to every executive role in the world or every. Organization in the world, but as a career coach I'm not a career coach, but I've worked with so many career coaches and I [00:08:00] know they're really focused on a best fit.
So does that apply in this space as well? I assume.
Eleonore (2): A hundred percent, right? No one is going to be a hundred percent great fit for everything. You have your friends, you have your nemeses, you have your allies, you have your detractors, you have different spheres of people. A person who could, a person like, let's say, Steve Jobs.
Great at Apple. Fantastic. Might not be the best field hockey coach. You never know. Yeah.
Erin: He's not alive anymore, so we'll count him out now. But maybe you never know. But yeah, I totally hear what you're saying, for sure.
Eleonore (2): So it doesn't mean that one is right or wrong. And that's the other thing we need to take apart is there is no right or wrong.
Our person shows up in an executive sense. Even if it's completely different, that might be what the organization needs at [00:09:00] that point in time. Because what have worked in the past won't always work in the future. And in fact, probably shouldn't. That means you're not evolving. That means your organization isn't changing.
So every once in a while, you do need to shake things up. You need a rebel in there.
Erin: I feel like that is so true now more than ever.
Eleonore (2): So it's being true to yourself at the end of the day. And being really honest with who you are, what you want that to look like. And what is the right fit for you?
It's not just about what is the fit for the organization, but is this really the right fit for you?
Erin: That makes a lot of sense. So I'm curious, how did, like, how did this come to be for you? What was your evolution of your thinking around this? Did you have Great role models in the past or?
Eleonore (2): Yes.
I was very lucky to have had one of the world's best leaders ever as both a former manager and as a friend now, I'd like to [00:10:00] say her name is Laura Kenny and she was one of the higher ups at Raytheon. She was one of the execs and I absolutely adored everything about her, in a healthy way, right?
Of course. But for the first time ever, I saw that you could really be your true self. She was as graceful as Audrey Hepburn, smart as a whip, and just kind and empathetic. And that was her executive presence. She showed that you could be all of those things and also have incredible style. Just an absolute fashionista and, working in a realm that was very much male dominated.
Raytheon is a defense company. Yeah. But again, this was a woman who could command the respect of any room she walked into. It was intelligence. It was empathy. It was wit. It was a sense that if you [00:11:00] were on her team, you wanted to do better. You wanted to be better. She encouraged you to.
improve not just your output for the company, but your personal development as a human.
Erin: Holy crap. This is like an amazing testimonial. Like Laura, if you're out there, I am a huge fan now. And yeah, no, that's like seriously though. But don't you want everyone? I know as a lead, like as a leader, that is how I wish people, or I hope that people will someday.
Speak about me. And that is the tension. I feel like that's the intention we need to put out in the universe
Eleonore (2): a hundred percent. And we luckily we're starting to have some of those conversations now.
Eleonore: So
Eleonore (2): when we're looking at executive fit, we're also looking at emotional intelligence.
We're starting to really look at the full package of what a person brings. Because that, you're absolutely right, a person like her [00:12:00] could really motivate a team to outperform every other team, and we did. And we took pride in that, but it didn't feel like a horrible endeavor to do that. It didn't feel like we were working overtime.
Overall, we had that energy to continue to work that hard because work was enjoyable. For the first time ever, Mondays were fun. Yeah, it wasn't just a paycheck.
Erin: And teams get set back so much when people leave. So if you have a leader who can keep people on the team and keep them, not just keep them motivated, but just keep them there present, that's everything these days.
Eleonore (2): Absolutely. And we could definitely go into the whole financial chat about what that costs an organization,
Eleonore: both
Eleonore (2): in terms of intelligence, labor, money for onboarding all of that. You're absolutely right. It is a huge loss to any organization. [00:13:00]
Erin: So the conversation about getting women or getting more diversity into leadership positions and executive positions.
Because, it's still male dominated the majority of executives are still men, white men. And if they're not, if they're not white men, then they're white women, I'm just curious what your thoughts are around, getting more diversity around the executive table.
Eleonore (2): Great question. And I think the approach needs to be very specific to the region right in Nordic countries and Scandinavian countries, we definitely see that the quota system works very well for them. It's well adopted. But there's also to a, we could talk about the differences within the demographics of those regions versus ours, but I think the important thing is finding out what your actual goal is, if you're actually committed [00:14:00] to those goals and it's not just a checkbox, then having some very hard and serious conversations.
within the organization to try to see what that means. It's going to be different things for different organizations. And we could talk about the merits of having the quota system in place, but you're absolutely right. One way or another, things need to change. It's not just the right thing to do. It is the strategically right thing to do.
Erin: So if I'm a person of, I'm not a person of color, but if I was a person of color, What would you recommend them to do? Like, how would you recommend that they, they access those positions?
Eleonore (2): I would urge everyone to get a sponsor. So very quickly, a mentor is someone who speaks to you,
Eleonore: and a
Eleonore (2): sponsor is someone who speaks about you in rooms of power.
So time and time again, we see that women Blacks, Indigenous, people of color We are [00:15:00] overly, and I say we because I know your audience can't see me, but I am a black woman we are overly mentored and not sponsored enough. And you can see why this wouldn't yield the results we want. If someone is just speaking to you, it doesn't actually move the needle.
Whereas if they are actively speaking about you and promoting you, yeah, that's when we start seeing changes, right? So get a sponsor.
Erin: Yeah. Good advice. So we've talked almost exclusively about character, character of executives. So I guess we could probably conclude that these days character is more important than appearance or does appearance still play a factor?
Eleonore (2): Yes, definitely. Appearance still does play some level of a factor, right? As much as we would like to believe that it shouldn't or it does not. It does. And there are some amazing style coaches out there too, [00:16:00] who really help you with that, because it's not just about the clothing you wear, but it's also to how confident you feel in that clothing.
So if that makes you put your best foot forward, you speak more eloquently, more strategically you're more of your authentic self, then yeah, get a style coach. If you need help with your presence. And then yes, an executive coach like myself would be more than happy to work with you. And they're speech therapists as well, and I highly recommend them.
I had a massive lisp for the majority of my life. So I fully understand how that could both limit your confidence, as well as,
Erin: Yeah. We're just about at the top of the hour, and it wouldn't be an episode of weirdos in the workplace. If we didn't close the episode with a little bit of a quote or a story, Eleanor.
Eleonore (2): Yeah. And, maybe I'll send it to you as well. One of my good friends, another executive coach Out in Switzerland focusing on [00:17:00] emotional intelligence.
If you need that sort of service, definitely contact her and her wonderful business partner Thomas Grom at Cofuturum. So her name is Anna Maria Zumsteg, and I remember one day she had sent me this lovely little picture of a lioness about to sprint. And the caption read, she remembered who she was and then the game changed.
So really and truly remember your inner confidence. Remember who you are. Bring that forward and go after your goals.
Erin: Amazing. I'm so glad you were able to join me and I cannot wait until you come to join me again. So there I can't wait. Fantastic. That's all for today. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Eleanor and you can find her at Eve's coaching.
com E A V E S C O A C H I N G. com. I love that we ended on authenticity. She remembered who she was and then the game changed. Brilliant. [00:18:00] Thanks for joining me on this journey. I look forward to our next adventure next week. Until then stay weird, stay wonderful. And remember don't stay out of trouble.
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With over 30 years of experience in high-tech sales and marketing, Kim Tofin shares insights on the critical roles in forming high-performing and high-impact teams.
Through personal stories and professional insights, Kim explains how creating a safe space for authenticity and unique contributions can transform organizational culture and drive unparalleled success.
Don't miss this in-depth discussion on fostering collaboration, bridging gaps, and unleashing the untapped potential within your teams!
Stay in Touch with Kim: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kim-tofin-38b0846/
For more on Kim and his Services: https://breakoutcx.com/
Within a team dynamic, the weirdos, the one or two or the three can start to feel psychologically safe because everybody allows that weirdness.
Welcome to weirdos in the workplace. The podcast that celebrates authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose in our world of work today.
My name's Erin Patchell. And today I'm super happy to bring on Kim Tofin. Hello, Aaron. Nice to see you again. Nice to see you as always, Kim. So to introduce Kim, after 30 years in high tech sales and marketing, Kim began Breakout CX and has thrown himself extensively into the art and science of team coaching and team infused leadership, which I think is something that you coined.
Is that right, Kim? Yes. Yeah. Awesome. So now Kim works with national and international companies to develop high performing teams and introduce and build a teamship culture. And today we're going to talk about how curiosity and maybe even a little bit of weirdness can make teaming possible among some other things that we'll get into as well.
So nice to have you on the podcast finally, Kim. Yeah, finally, we got past the weirdo point. We got past the weirdness. Yeah. Um, I'd actually, let's, let's let, I want to ask you that question for sure, uh, because I think it's kind of, it's kind of cool, like the evolution of your thinking around the word weird.
Um, but I'd love for people to hear from your mouth, like what you do, who you are, just a few minutes about, um, what you care about, why you care about this so much. Yeah, that's a good question. It's a good place to start. I mean, I, as you said in the introduction, I worked with teams, uh, in my career for the part of three decades.
And, um, I've worked with good teams, not good teams and terrible teams. Um, but I didn't know about a teaming culture. I certainly didn't know about team coaching or a team ship. And along the way, I began to understand the importance of collaboration and it just stuck with me in every aspect of the work that I did.
And so this started to define me and I became sort of enamored with, um, with coaching as it began to emerge. And that was with leadership coaching. And it just has became, become a part of what I really Um, stand for it. In other words, we could say it's my stance of life, both personally and professionally.
It's amazing. So you've made it sort of a calling or it's become a calling for you. I did. And, and, you know, um, not to dwell on the matter, but I had a life changing event, uh, three years ago, my partner passed away. And it, and it just opened up an opportunity for me to, to reset, recalibrate my life and focus on what really matters to me and, and grab a hold of my passion and, uh, in a way, give back to, you know, my community, um, our country, um, and, and, you know, all the organizations, whether they're institutional, private, government, um, educational, not for profit, um, you know, It's just, I, I'm so committed to, um, sort of unleashing this potential around teamship and, and that's what I'm doing and I'll keep doing it, um, uh, even with people calling me weirdo.
Absolutely. And we're turning that word into, you know, that's the best thing you could possibly be as a weirdo. For the record. So, um, but yeah, there's no question that, um, something like that, like a life change in the death of a partner, you know, and I'm obviously I'm so sorry about that. Um, but there's no question that that changes the way that you think about things, right?
A traumatic situation like that, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Um, you, you start to, um, you go, it's a choice, but I found myself going inward. And tapping into my presence, my core, my strengths, um, it's still a work in progress. Like I haven't got it all figured out, but I would rather be in that process than. either masking the grief or the healing or the pain, um, because it doesn't serve the teams that I coach very well if I'm not true to myself and authentic when I walk in those rooms or when I'm coaching a CEO one on one.
Um, it reminds me actually when you, when you just said that, uh, there was a quote from yesterday. I was in a grief and loss workshop, um, with an amazing coach from Ottawa, Dina, uh, Bell or La Roche. And there was a quote that she said, and I'm going to see, I'm just going to do a little search here because I want to say it.
Uh, we can't accompany our clients when we are where we ourselves dare not travel. Um, you know, yeah, in fact, I've come across that recently in the last few days and I think it's very powerful. Absolutely. Yes, it is. Yeah. Okay. So today is all about team ship and specifically, you know, the power of curiosity, um, the The power of collaboration, the power of, uh, development, um, Tell me a little bit more about specifically the work that you do like what is teamship?
Sure. Um,
initially, um, you know, through all my training, my team coaching training, I was chasing down teams that were either dysfunctional or starting up. Or going through a lot of changes, a lot of, um, changes in personnel or changes in ownership and working with those teams became very clear to me that, that teams have such power and such potential.
That it's more than just the team, it's organizational impact. And so in the last year or so, I've sort of described myself as a systemic team coach. In other words, it's more than just the team. Of course it is the team and every team has a starting and ending point. No two teams are the same as if the same as no two individuals are the same.
Um, and so with that, um, teamship, this term started to evolve in my mind that teamship really should be at the same level as leadership. Um, but it's not and and so it the time is right. I think to introduce this concept now. Teamship itself is being, um, introduced and and exploited very positively by, uh, a handful of organizations, consulting firms in the U.
S. And in Europe. Um, and I think there's a couple in Canada, but it's still relatively new. Um, and I just coined this term. Um, Of teamship infused leadership because because leaders are are struggling today. You know, it's not working as it used to. And so my approach is to come in to the organization and and look at what we can do with the organizational health.
Um, through empowering, uh, teams and getting teams moving from fundamental to high performing and ideally to high impact. So it strikes me that, you know, your background in sales and marketing probably has a lot to do with the way that you think about business in general, and then how, how the team itself can be impactful.
Would you say that's accurate? Yeah. It's, it's an interesting, It's an interesting statement and question. I think, I think we are all kind of salespeople. We're all trying to, to, um, promote or push or sell our, our value, our brand, our ideas, our thoughts. Um, so, so I think that in sales and marketing and how we position those, those, um, services or deliverables, um, yeah, has given me a lot of insights into the real fast movement of organizational dynamics, because everything happens around revenue in the private sector, but it's equally, it happens around government, for example, in, in service delivery.
Thank you. Or not for profit in stakeholder value education as in education for the students, et cetera. So, um, and in sales and marketing, there are a lot of teams because you're working directly or indirectly with all kinds of teams, operational teams, customer experience, teams, um, R and D teams, engineering development teams.
And, and in my experience, most of that were, you know, those teams were all working in silos. There was very little cross functional, um, value or benefits happening. And, um, the leaders weren't, you know, they weren't paying attention. And so it's, uh, yeah, it, it, it weighs heavily on me and it's great to draw from all those experiences.
And I'm actually quite happy that I worked with incredibly, incredibly successful companies, um, and not so successful companies because I know what doesn't work. Right. Yeah. And it's good to draw from that. For sure. I feel like we're kind of leading, you're leading me down a path here that I like, which is towards the The conversation around weirdness, you know, especially, um, you know, when we start to talk about strengths based teaming, uh, or collaboration or breaking down silos, part of me says, you know, well, the authenticity, you know, and having, having different people on a team, having a, um, a cross functional team, uh, makes a lot of sense, you know, and you can't have a cross functional team without a little bit of weirdness and authenticity.
Um, tell me, tell, tell everyone, like, if you're comfortable sharing the story about like when I first approached you as a podcast, you know, weirdos in the workplace is definitely there's reasons why we decided to call it weirdos in the workplace, right? Because it does rub people the wrong way a little bit.
And, and tell me a little bit about your evolution in like the last, you know, while, you know, as, as that's been kind of evolving. It's a great story. And I'm, um, I've come out the other end of it in a, in a much more informed, um, content, uh, sort of, you know, situation. Um, as you pointed out, to be a weirdo or to be claimed or called a weirdo was a little bit uncomfortable, but that's also a generational interpretation or definition.
Um, and, and I, I couldn't sort of get past that. Um, then. In my desire to come on this podcast. I thought, well, I've got to, I've got to work through this. So in one of my team coaching sessions, I actually, uh, used the question. What is a weirdo to you and how important is it to be used or not to be used in this particular team?
And it was a check in. It was expected to be, you know, several minutes in a team of seven people. And, and four of the team were under 30 and three of the team were over 55. So there was a big gap in the middle. Um, the conversation went on for 40 minutes. And this is what I love about team coaching is that you go to where the conversation needs to be.
And just the, the very topic of weirdos in the workplace. just opened up such enriched and textured dialogue between not just between the two age groups but amongst everybody in the team and everybody had a different perspective of what a weirdo was and it settled down into Someone who's bold, someone who's creative, someone who's not, you know, on the beaten path, um, you know, some, some, someone that can potentially drive change and, and then it morphed into, and then I, I sort of facilitated this conversation a little bit that within a team dynamic, um, the weirdos, the one or two or the three can start to feel psychologically safe because everybody allows that weirdness.
to unfold. And suddenly this is where the magic of a team starts to appear. So it's just a wonderful story. And, um, yeah, I think, I think it's the absolute right name for the podcast. I absolutely love that you did that, that you actually went out and kind of workshopped it almost. Yeah. Yeah. I was, it was for selfish reasons, but it, it now is, is part of my routine, right?
Because I, I think it, It really helps move the psychological safety bar, right. And the thing is, like, why are we why are we sometimes resistant to words, and I'm the same right there are certain words, but I'm like, it's a struggle for me to feel like I'm that could be part of my identity. But I think the same thing happens if you, you know, maybe you're taking a personality assessment or something and it tells you, Oh, this is, you know, this is your result.
This is who you are, you know, and you're looking at it going, I don't think I'm that person. And it rubs you a little bit, right. But it's, it's processing that and opening yourself up to that possibility. That really, um, helps us develop into. like a new identity, right? Uh, or broadens our identity or makes us more agile or adaptive.
So, um, yeah, I'm amazed that you did that work. That's so brilliant. Oh, thank you. And you mentioned, you know, the assessments and, you know, we, whether it's something very simple, you know, Myers Briggs or whatever, you know, there's a month there, but, um, I find that doing individual personal assessments In a team coaching environment, um, does set up some risks because people do exactly what you said.
They get attached to their own identity and really the secret of a, of a well performing team is that it's about the dance. It's not about the dancers and we don't care what orientation the dancers are. We don't care what ethnicity they are or whatever. It really doesn't matter. We're only focused primarily now there's growth individually, of course, but we're focused on the dance.
And how is the dance going to look? in front of the audience or the stakeholders. And, and so we, we, sometimes we have to, I find that we have to spend time in, in team coaching sessions to get those individual assessments on the table and put them through the shredder. Yeah. Sometimes get sort of going in that collective energy.
Yeah. I mean, if you're getting, if you're like, I'm a yellow and You have a really rigid, you know, idea of that. That's not promoting the kind of flexible mindset that we need in a team. Yeah. Right. We need a flexible mindset. Um, would you say how, how does team ship and how would team ship in a flexible mindset?
How, how, how do you help develop that? Well, I guess, you know, it's, it's a good question. There are a lot of approaches, but I think what I can do is distill down. This is that in a, in a team coaching environment. In the beginning stages. There's more facilitation on the team from the team coach. We're putting together the structure where I'm helping them pull together their charter, their working agreement, and um, so that there's buy in, there's sign in, but everything is flexible.
And so no matter What are the stages that we initially set up? I mean, I lay out a template and sort of a shell and I populate it, but it's, it's for them to deconstruct and rebuild it for themselves because they need to own it so that that flexibility, which then brings in trust and psychological safety and candor and all those things start to play all those dynamics start to happen when.
They are now in ownership. Um, and yet, um, I'm not just sitting back watching. You know, I'm holding their feet to the fire on accountability. Like they have a charter, they have a working agreement and I won't call them out, but I won't tell them what's wrong is that I will tell them, I think we might be in breach of what you, what the team has agreed to.
Is it just me or, or how does the rest of the team. Do you that I should just sidebar that to say that, you know, in team coaching, there's both team coaching sessions where we're working on, uh, development issues and going through their, their development stages. There's success traits, et cetera, but there's also live action coaching.
where under very tight NDAs, I'm just a fly in the wall, and we agree upon how I will interact, if at all. But, but that's very, very powerful, because you witness them, and I'm observing them in, in their, in their usual active meetings, right? And they're going through their tasks and everything like that.
And it's, it's a good test to see how they're taking how, you know, the same dynamics. And bringing them into their, their day job or into what their team is expected to do. And what are the objectives and what are the tasks? Hmm. Very interesting. Do you find that they bring their best selves to those sessions when you're watching?
Or do they kind of like, are you like the, the furniture after a while? You know, it, it's, It's always different and it depends on the issue. And of course, in the beginning, everybody's all suited up, but it only takes one spark and, and then I'm, I'm invisible. Um, and, and I really try to let that go.
Sometimes, You'll see everybody, what's the team coach think right now? Because they're already sensing there's a, there's that dynamic tensions, but you don't need me. You already sense it. So what, what's going on? What do you feel? Is it, is it uncomfortable? Do you feel stressed? Has your heart rate gone up?
Let's talk about it. Yep. Red flags, red flags. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. So teamship. A teamship culture. I'm curious about that. And also high impact team. Um, and I know these things go hand in hand. You probably don't have a high impact team without a team culture, a teamship culture rather. Um, what, can you paint us a picture?
So what, what is a team sh a high impact team? What do they look and feel and sound and smell like? Yeah. Okay. So maybe not the smell. And it's a good way to frame the question, Aaron, because, you know, we touched on the stages of team development. Um, a high impact team is really at the second to last stage.
Now the last stage being The, the team coachings program is really complete and we recalibrate, we reset, we team out. Um, but if we're dealing or if we've developed or we've evolved into a teamship culture, then we're going to look at that and, and see how we can raise the bar within the whole organization.
So a high impact team. You know, within my definition and use of the term is a team that has gone beyond high performing. This team has become a catalyst there. Um, they're creating a ripple effect. Of all of the dynamics of what, you know, radical collaboration can do the organization and they're driving change.
They're, they're incubating a lot of other, um, you know, either teams, they're influencing teams, or they've got a lot of people that now want to be on a team because just through osmosis. people in the organization, they want to be a part of that positive movement. So that's a high impact team. Now, is it a rites of passage or a milestone that one goes from one to the other?
No, it's not like that. But, um, it's a, it's, it's more of a horizon that, you know, we can, the team can aspire to reach. So that's what a high impact team can really do. This notion, it sounds like it's something that kind of goes viral. Like people are noticing, um, they're, you know, there's a positivity, there's, um, an impact, there's an influence, and there's obviously like a high performing aspect of it, I'm sure as well.
Yeah, it can be viral. It's, it all depends on, well, depends on a lot of things, but I'll, I'll focus on it depends on leadership, right? Leadership has bought in, or maybe leadership is still at that experimental stage. You know, they don't really have a team trip culture. They're not totally into it, but.
They're willing to give it a go because they know that it's work is not working to the level they want it. The organizational health is substandard. And, and so if they're supporting it, then, um, they will remove the barriers to whatever's happening and, and then begin to see or witness for the first time what real corporate culture can be and, and how it grows organically.
And so, you know, your, your term of viral, you know, is. can be actually very, very true. In some cases, there's skepticism and, and people are like, you know, what, what are they drinking? Like, what are they putting in their coffee? You know, they're all so excited and hyped up. You know, we see them through the fishbowl boardroom and, and they're kind of going, Oh, you know, but, but because they haven't really experienced it yet.
So it all depends on really the team lead, which is really the liaison between leadership and the organization and the team. And how they want to, um, exploit that energy. Right. Um, and I'm, I'm going to make it probably clear for everyone, like, it sounds like the description, you know, the excitement and everything sounds like very extroverted energy, but I think that doesn't matter what kind of personality style you have.
You can be part of a team within a teamship culture that has that kind of energy. Is that true? Absolutely. Yeah. And, and, and it's also in resolve. Because at the end of the day, um, you know, every conversation I have in the early stages with the sponsors and the and the stakeholders or the executive leadership, it's all about, um, you know, um, performance results, growth, um, You know, so we're not losing sight of the fact that if it's a, if it's a private company, it's about profit and return shareholder value and these kinds of things.
So, so in buried in that performance. Uh, those KPIs are showing that the, the M& A initiative or the new product release happened amazingly quickly and amazingly effective. And so while people are still kind of looking normal, you know, they're not, you know, they're not bouncing off the ceiling. People are looking at just what's going on within the organization.
They're looking at results and that, you know, certainly not just private sector firms, but in all types of organizations, results matter. Yes, they do. And this is the main driver, uh, uh, and outcome of effective teams, right? So, so this is also part of the, of the ripple effect is that we've got, we've got things happening in this organization.
And people are are happy about it. And people are saying like, Oh, God, yeah, that's, you know, I, I'm not going to work more than 40 hours. They want to work an extra few hours to finish this and drive this home. And then, you know, you hope that the organization says, you know, that was really good. Okay, so let's everybody take, take the Friday off everybody on this team.
That's good. Like we, we beat this timeline by a month. Right. Yeah. Yep. Um, and right now I don't think any company can afford to, you know, to be complacent. I would say, um, teaming is going to be especially important, putting together strong teams, knowing how to manage strong teams, support strong teams and build that culture.
Um, because, you know, the better. We, we can do a lot more together than we can separately for sure. Um, and there's so much context to know now, like, Oh my gosh, you know, try doing anything without consulting the others, like all of, all of your stakeholders, right. Um, so expensive to go in the wrong direction.
Well, it is. And these interventions, while they're still always going to be important, like consulting and advising and training, you know, we need all that. But what's happening is that those initiatives are not connecting to organizational health or success. They're there under contract. They're in, they're out.
They're important. They're important at a certain points in time. But if you have a team ship culture, which is cloaked, not only the executive in the boardroom, but all the whole organization, then teams, the power of teams now are connected inherently to the organization. And so the outcomes, the positive outcomes, the performance, the effectiveness.
Is now capacity and, and it's, it's part of the organization. And I think this is where, um, you know, I'll make this bold statement. You know, I think that generally, there are certainly are a lot of exceptions. There are some really, really progressive firms, organizations in Canada, but generally, for whatever reason, we're, we're kind of behind embracing team ship.
In compared to the US and the UK and other European countries. No, I mean, I have some suspicions why that is, but, um, we need to embrace that. And we need to do this right now because it's, it's an investment and it doesn't mean we have to go hire more people. It doesn't mean we need to engage expensive consultants.
We need to identify and, um, unleash the potential in our own organizations. And, um, those people that we've identified as well, they, they don't seem to participate. They're always quiet. They, you know, we don't hear for those people. You bring those people into a safe, powerful, engaged team environment. And, and it happens often that within.
months, those sort of disengaged people are deriving the agenda of the team. They just emerged. It's, and it's, this is what is inspiring for me to see this, um, transcendence. Um, and, and the, and the people who are typically sucking all the oxygen out of the teams are now kind of like, Oh, yeah. Okay. I guess I got to do things differently now.
Yeah, there's balance in the team. Hmm. Interesting. Okay. So, um, let's see, how do we want to wrap things up here? Um, I mean, obviously with that, I was going to say, Aaron, you, you did ask another question about like teamship in general and, and how does it sort of mesh into leadership? And I, I wanted to just touch on that and maybe this is a good way to sort of, um, bring it all together.
And yeah, we look at, you know, the success of leaders is distinguished by their, their leadership skills. Acumen, uh, and commitments to, uh, you know, people, power, organizational health and stakeholder value. Well, it's the same thing with teams. The effective effectiveness of a team is exemplified by the team ship operative framework.
And it's, it's also, um, exemplified by the collaboration, rigor and the systemic co elevation, um, in pursuit of, um, results around a unified or, uh, aligned purpose. So when you, when you look at teamship and leadership in that same context, You see that they belong together. They really, they really need each other.
And I think today they need each other more than ever. And, and I think this is where the, you know, the understanding has to sort of come into play from leaders because they need to, they need to realize that Uh, a teamship culture is absolutely necessary in, in all organizations right now. Yeah. So I talked to a lot of leaders and especially leaders who are looking to improve their teams, although we don't do the kind of work you do, Kim.
And I find that leaders don't have a very good or very strong language around leadership, period, just leadership. Yeah. Um, I think teamship is like another layer, right? Uh, how do you find, is like the, do you find the leaders that you're talking to have any kind of common language around teamship? Um, well, it's, it's, um, If they do, they've already got high performing teams.
They understand that. And so you're coming in to take them to the next level or they've slid off the road and you're trying to bring them back for different reasons. Um, I think a lot of it is the discussion centers around organizational health. What's the state of the organization, you know, um, and I'm saying that generally, cause it doesn't matter whether they're private institution or whatever the, the leader, um, needs to recognize that.
And if you're having an initial conversation, they probably are looking for something to make a difference, something to help them move the bar, but they don't really know, know what. And they've heard all the, you know, they've heard the pitches before and they, you know, they've heard all the leadership training and the workshops and, and all the kinds of things they've heard about team building.
They've heard about, you know, team dynamics and teaming, and they send people off to a weekend retreat and they climb a. A wall and they fall down and people catch them and now there's trust, right? Well, okay, well we check that box off. Um, and when you have a candid conversation with them about collaboration, about a holistic approach to working together, um, and dealing with conflict, dealing with, um, decision making, and breaking down, now I know this is another cliche, but breaking down silos, Or, you know, getting past groupthink.
Um, you know, if, if you have the conversation so that you're not pointing it to them, but, but they're kind of acknowledging that, yeah, these are issues, but I have no idea how to address this. I know why this is a problem. I know what I have to do, but the common question is, well, I just don't know how to do it.
And there, that's a, that's a place to start a conversation, a rich conversation around the potential of teams. Um, team ship and of course it requires and and there's statistics and reports and research done that the best highest performing teams are coached. That's, that's pretty, pretty known today. Um, certainly in the UK.
And, and so, um, systemic team coaching is important, um, but it's an investment and it's long term. You know, we're not searching for fixes. We're searching for capacity, building, um, empowerment. Absolutely. So you need a healthy business model probably before you're engaging in team coaching.
Well, and what would a healthy business model be one that's, you know, profitable, profitable or delivering services and, and, and benefit to your stakeholders. It could be that you don't have a profitable or healthy business model because you don't have trust in your teams or you don't have a collaborative mindset.
Um, so. So I would, I would say, no, it's, it's not a criteria. I think the discussion can happen, um, because of that. Okay. All right. So, um, so that's, that's very good. That's very interesting. Okay. Uh, so worth talking about, worth reaching out to Kim, if you have teams who need support, um, organizations that, you know, you're doing some investigation on what the root causes is, because maybe it's your teams.
Yeah. If there's some issues. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and it's, and if you're really just, the discussion can be around, how do I get the best out of my people? You know, there's a big aspect around, you know, people power, you know, EQ, for example, you know, a lot of organizations, traditional organizations will still call this soft skills performing, you know, high performing teams.
inherently develop the EQ of their people. So, so leaders are saying, well, I know I got to do this. I have to retain my people. I have to make them feel more psychological safety. I've got to focus more on DEI, but I don't know how to do that. And I, I give my, give those problems to HR and they just bring some consultants in and, but some of them really know what they're doing, but I don't, I don't want to.
bash the HR departments, but, but that's not their wheelhouse. And so the leaders are going like, I just don't know what to do. And so, um, the conversation has to be around, what are we doing with the team? Um, and, and we're using, we're tapping into, and we're, we're uncovering this. Enormous potential that it already exists in the company of how to meet the requirements, the objectives, and the goals of, of the organization.
And maybe we need to actually design some cross functional teams within the organization to better execute upon those goals. I mean, that could be a great conversation in itself. And, and many teams that I coach, I spend the first several weeks. In the first phase, which is called alignment or designing or direction, um, talking with sponsors and stakeholders around.
So how do we, how do we build your team? And then who's on the team? And do the teams want to be coached? And, you know, And does this make sense? Um, um, and if you've had teams before, are they working groups? Are they pseudo teams and let's tear that apart and let's look at what might make sense, um, and let's experiment.
So it's not always about, Oh, there's a team. It has a tail and a nose. Let's go coach it. Yes. It could be an organization with the wheels coming off and a teaming mindset could make the difference between success and prolonged agony, you know, towards failure. I think the thing that I love about this the most, or not the most, the thing that I love about maybe the most is the fact that it's such a tangible outcome.
Right. It's the kind of thing that you can say, you know, let's just try it and see how it works for six months. I don't have to, you know, it's not like a hope and dream, right? It's not like, oh, let's, you know, spend money on this, this program. And, um, The, the results are so intangible that they're impossible to measure, right?
With, with teaming, uh, literally in six months, you should be seeing some results. Your team should be happier, more motivated, more productive. Like there's so many tangible outcomes of what you do. And, you know, at a, at an individual level, that's the other thing with teams. Even though, as I said earlier, we're focused on the dance, not the dancers.
But the members, the individual people are growing. They're learning how to, um, associate and coalesce and relate. With other people, that's a, that's a, that's a life skill, right? It's it, so they take this away and this starts to sort of spill out into, you know, into the pizza parlors and the pubs after work, right?
I mean, it's like, wow, you've changed. Like I heard that so much, like. You know, person A has really changed, and person B, I've never heard that person talk so much. And, and so, they, the confidence starts to build up. And, and so if, if nothing else, I mean, and maybe the team starts out as a core fundamental team, barely just past working group, but they do have a compelling reason to do it.
To get together to form a team and maybe they only go to a certain level, um, because they're highly functional and, and, you know, they're, they're not in decision making, a decision making capacity, and they can only influence the direction of the organization so much. They'll never become a high impact team, but they will have strong influence.
On the organization and and so you, you know, the team coach serves that purpose of 6 to 12 to 18 months, but then the team coach withdraws and I, you know, I, or the team coach does not need to come back every time there's a problem. A wheel falls off because now the team is empowered. They have their own charter, their working agreement, they're empowered.
They can now drive this through the organization. I don't want to be a consultant. I have consulted and I hate it when I got to be called back into, you know, rinse and repeat of something that they should have known they should have built the capacity to resolve themselves. But it's much easier to just bring in the consultants again.
Yeah, it is sometimes. It is sometimes. It is sometimes. Oh boy, Kim, thank you so much for the amazing conversation around this. It's really interesting. Uh, it's so deep though. I feel like there's so many layers that it's almost impossible to be able to just, you know, it's, it's so broad. It's really hard to focus on like, you know, one specific aspect of it, but I think we did okay.
I think we did. I think you're Um, you're right. I mean, it is, it is very complex. It's messy. Uh, yeah, we didn't get into cross functionality. We didn't get, like, there's so many, so many layers, you know, there's, um, I think you, you pulled out a lot of really good themes to discuss and I thank you for that.
And I'm really appreciative of, uh, You know, the opportunity to come onto your podcast and just share some ideas. Honestly, come back anytime you want. Maybe next season we'll have you back again. If you want. Absolutely. What you're up to. Yeah. Absolutely. We'd love it. Awesome. Thank you very much, sir. Weirdo.
I'm good. You're going to get a t shirt.
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Intro:
Jennifer Robb is an enthusiastic and strategic finance leader with over 15 years of experience in various public and private industries, including transportation, construction, and energy. A few years ago, Jennifer experienced burnout caused by what we would call “old school toxic management”.
Through recovery, Jennifer discovered hidden insights about herself and the workplace. She embraced mindfulness, ignited her passion for coaching, and developed innovative strategies to motivate teams in a positive way. Her story is a beautiful reminder that even our hardest moments can lead to valuable lessons and transformative change!
Stay in Touch with Jennifer: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jennifer-robb-cpa-cma/
For more on Jennifer and her Services: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jennifer-robb-cpa-cma/
Welcome to weirdos in the workplace. The podcast that celebrates authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose in our world of work.
And I'm here with the lovely Jennifer Rob. Say hello, Jennifer. Thank you. Hello everyone. Awesome. Jennifer is an enthusiastic and strategic finance leader with over 15 years experience in various public and private sector roles, um, including in, uh, different industries, such as transportation, construction, and energy.
And a few years ago, Jennifer experienced a burnout caused by what we might call, uh, old school toxic management. We're going to talk about that and the process of recovery has led her to discover herself for mindfulness and coaching practice and win win ways of motivating teams. So welcome Jennifer to weirdos in the workplace.
Thank you. And thanks for having me. Yeah. My pleasure. Um, so let's share a little bit about yourself, please, so that everyone here can get to know you, get to know your background a little bit, and, you know, especially regarding this burnout, just if you can, if you can kind of lead us, um, on the journey a little bit.
Mm hmm. So, I am a CPA. Um, I also have a I studied and worked abroad in different capacities. I'm also a mom of two, which is important, because, you know, everyone has a life outside of work. Everyone is a full and complete human being. And sometimes a lot of these worlds collide, uh, for better or worse.
And I went through this period of, um, intense work where I was very capable of doing the work and unfortunately the work just get kept getting piled on. So through COVID there were some, you know, everyone had challenges, right? People were leaving the workplace. They were quitting through vaccine mandates.
There were so many changes that were going on and that led, um, me to a position of covering a number of jobs. And it went on for such an extended period of time. It was really hard for me to let go because I loved what I was doing. And I love doing things like innovating and process improvements and making things better.
And I didn't see it coming. I just eventually got to this place where I was so burnt out and I was frustrated and cynical and I just didn't realize where I had backed myself into a corner. And I really needed to make some personal changes, to take a break, to let myself heal. When you are clinically diagnosed with burnout, which I was, it's, it's a tough situation.
You know, we, we overuse burnout. Um, you know, we say at the end of the week, oh, it's Friday, I'm burnt out. But when you are clinically burnt out, that that's just a different level of burnout. It's one where you need, um, like psychological support and it's one where you need even, um, Rest and recovery, not just physically, but for your brain.
And that's really different place to be in. And I didn't realize what it meant until I was in it until it was too late. I think that that's actually really important. And I think you're totally right. We use burnout often. I think people are tired. And they use the words burnout, you know, and I try to, I try to hold a strong line there myself.
A lot of people are constantly concerned that I'm going to burn out because of the number of things, number of hats that I wear. Um, and I, what I always say is I might be tired sometimes, but I'm really good at managing my energy. I'm really good at making sure that I'm eating well. I'm exercising, I'm drinking water, I'm sleeping, you know, I'm seeing, I'm seeing my friends and, and I have support, like I'm okay, you know, um, and yeah, I might be tired sometimes and I'll let you know if I'm tired, but I'm not burnt out.
Um, but I do think I, and I have, I have also experienced burnout in my twenties and it is very different. It's debilitating. Um, and so I, I, I do know the difference personally, but I don't think a lot of people do. How did you experience burnout? What was the experience for you? So unfortunately it was, it was quite sad because I'm a very goal oriented person and I have a lot of grit, which is great.
Like I can, I can like. really dig my heels in, be determined, accomplish my goals. But grit doesn't always serve you well. And what I learned was that, uh, there was a book by Annie Duke called Quit. Yeah. And she, in a way, really changed my life. So thank you, Annie. Um, because she, In her book she talks about when is it worthwhile to grit through something and to bear down and get it done, and when does it not serve you enough, and for me, having my eyes set on these goals, because I wanted to accomplish them.
It meant. Then I had to cut away everything else. So sleep, you know, I don't, I don't have time to sleep right now. I've got to get this done. I don't have time to, you know, make sure I'm fed with nutritious foods. I've got to have like protein bars in my drawer. And that's what I would eat all day long. I had an espresso machine in my office like, and come on, it's great coffee.
Um, And I, I started working out really intensely as a coping mechanism and it wasn't healthy. When I look back on it, I did it because it was just so intense and it just allowed me to, to just release that energy, that negative energy I felt, but looking back on it now, it was just a coping mechanism. And what happened was at the end, um, you know, I left my job and I kind of collapsed and it was like this.
Collapse of physical tiredness, mental tiredness. I literally just stayed in bed for like days on end and my husband was quite worried about me and I tried to, you know, hide it as much as I could for my kids because I didn't want them to, you know, feel as if their mom was going through something traumatic, but it really was trauma.
In a way, because I had pushed myself to the extent that I had lost control of my mental composure. I, I, I lived almost on a different planet and I was so hypervigilant, you know, everything had a deeper meaning, everything was sort of out of control. And when I saw the psychiatrist who diagnosed me with burnout, you know, initially I thought I had something like.
Um, I was on the spectrum somehow, like I had ADHD or something and he's like, no, you are so burnt out. You need time and space to just calm your brain down, calm your body down and just stay with it. And it's been a long road. It's been. Yeah, it's been like two years, and I'm still, you know, learning new techniques and learning new tools to keep me grounded.
And through that experience, I did a lot of coaching, I did a lot of journaling, I did a lot of learning about mindfulness practices, and just being in tune with your body, and learning, you know, some painful lessons about what do I value. Does this serve me or does it not serve me? And it's, it seems quite simple.
It's also like a hard lesson to learn when you get there. Yeah. And I find that burnout often, um, it often happens to people who are high performing. You're high performing, you know, that those type of personalities, right. And, and I wanted to be, I wanted to achieve those goals. Like I'm a capable person.
If I don't know how to do it, there's nothing that can stop me from learning how to do it. Um, I was, I was very much a person where I would say. Okay, this is my task. I may not know how to do it, but I'm certainly going to figure it out. And I would be really happy with those big challenges. So it was really hard for me to take that step back.
Uh, but what it, where it led me to was it, In the end, I wish I hadn't gotten so burnt out, but it led me to a place of learning about, you know, how all these things can benefit me and my leadership skills. So, you know, mindfulness, being, um, being aware and seeing people through not just their eyes and not their viewpoints, but seeing them through their whole lives and what's going on and having more compassion for other people and thinking.
You know, that person doesn't seem themselves. They didn't react very well. There's a logic to that and there must be something going on in their life. That's. You know, and, and looking at people as other humans more than employees or, you know, team members, you know, there was a book that I read and I think it was called how, how to be human.
I'll, I'll look it up so you can put it in the notes but it really talked about the human side of, you know, understanding what's behind everyone. And even the people that we know really well, we only know about 30%. of what's going on in their life. So there's this whole iceberg below the surface that we're unaware of.
And keeping that in mind allowed me to be kind to myself because I realized, you know, other people don't know what's going on with me and likewise. So it allowed me to approach a lot of things with more compassion and kindness and patience. Yeah. And it also gave me permission to forgive people, not, not because Of what they did necessarily, but in the act of forgiving people, I'm not saying I for said it was right what they did, or I'm not judging them.
It allowed me to let go of that negative energy. And that was really key for me. I don't forgive people for them. I forgive them for myself. You sound very self possessed, like you feel like you have, you know, you have more control over, you know, your boundaries, um, your, your, you know, your own emotions, um, how your, you know, your interpersonal relationships, um, would you say that that sounds accurate?
Um, and it was, it was a journey to get here, uh, used, I had two fabulous coaches that I worked with and I worked at it. You, you can't fake the work. But the work was so rewarding. Right. And that is what led me to really want to do more things in terms of helping people. So, as part of that healing journey, um, I volunteer with the Royal Canadian Marines Search and Rescue.
And they offered up this critical incident stress management course. So what we would do is when there's been a particularly traumatic incident, uh, so for example, these are volunteers who go out and rescue people. If they've suffered some sort of emotional trauma, we are trained to go in and help them process that trauma.
And I think Getting involved with that was so key in helping me process my own grief and trauma from being burnt out and in the workplace. And then that led me to the new spot about, you know, really wanting to take the executive coaching and become an executive coach, not necessarily to go out and start my own consulting business.
That, that may happen, but to also bring that in house to organizations, because I think organizations do lack that skill. And a lot of organizations don't have the money or, you know, the consulting budget to be able to bring that in house. And so, Yeah. And I really believe, you know, I, I really believe in making the world a better place.
And that's, that's a big, uh, commitment from an accountant. So I'm not saving people's lives and, you know, I'm not like rescuing people from all these different, um, you know, traumatic situations. But I believe that in whatever capacity you have, you can make the world a better place or not. Yeah. Yeah, total 100 percent your actions have a ripple effect for sure.
And we really believe in coaching cultures here. So anytime someone can learn the skill of coaching and bring it into their organizations. That's what I did originally. You know, I didn't. go out. I didn't become a coach and take coach training because I wanted to be a coach like an independent coach. I did it because I wanted to be a great manager, you know, a great people manager.
I wanted to be able to serve my team to the best of my abilities. Um, and I knew that coaching was a valuable skill. And so that's, that was the reason why I took coaching. And I think that that is one of the better reasons, honestly, to become a coach, to learn that skill. Yeah, definitely. Um, So obviously you didn't get here on your own, you know, you, you didn't burn out in a silo.
Um, I do think that, you know, we have more autonomy than we sometimes know that we do, or we have the skill. We don't always have the skills, right. To set those boundaries, to have those difficult conversations, to like, you know, to, to, you know, You don't have the personal power necessarily, um, in every situation at work that you need to have in order to protect yourself properly.
Right. Um, but, but you certainly, you don't get there in a silo, you know, um, and what, um, sometimes the only thing you can do is leave. And I think that you've demonstrated that, but tell me about, you know, without obviously, you know, being discreet about it as you can, um, tell me about the scenario that, how, how did this evolve in the workplace?
Yeah. So I, I think I was very naive. Um, and I believed that I could show how important finance and accounting wise and how beneficial it could be for an organization. And I really believe that finance is a strategic business partner. We can serve the organization. We can help the organization. You know, we are service providers to give good quality information that people can make the best possible decisions with.
And I was, I was fooling myself. Um, and I didn't realize. That this organization didn't value that. Um, one of the also things like, and I, so I, I do value my own profession and I am, um, biased, of course. I also believe in innovation and being really authentic and, What's really important to me when we talk about innovation is it really starts with diversity of thought.
And if people aren't willing to come to the table to discuss and brainstorm different ideas, then they really don't believe in innovation at all. And, you know, there's, I also feel there's a link between DEI initiatives and Diversity of thought. You know, we're really great at saying, you know, we believe in diverse cultures, but do we believe in diverse ways of thinking?
Not so sure. In the organizations I've worked at, um, I think we could have done better and, and maybe part of that was, was my fault and I, I own that, but I, I think we need to also open our minds a little bit and realize that brainstorming and diversity of thought Is that first step towards making things better or making meaningful, intentional changes in the workplace?
I 100 percent agree with you. Um, yes, I think that there are so many different ways that the brain works in different people. And the only way that we can solve the world's problems that we have today, I think, is to think differently. Um, I think that becomes kind of tricky in a larger organization. I've worked with a few holocracies.
Um, which are very, very, very interesting, dynamic organizations, very flat organizations, um, or teal organizations and, uh, they, they have their own challenges, you know, um, there are, you know, and, and, and the teal organizations, the whole holocratic organizations, they really value this as well. Um, It's interesting.
Like, I think that we have to take everything in balance. This is where I'm coming. Like, I feel like as I, as I've learned about diversity and inclusion, it's like the pendulum kind of swings all the way one way, and then you realize, you know, if I'm working, for example, if I'm working with a creative team, you know, a lot of creative teams.
strongly value collaboration, innovation, diversity of thought, you know, they're chaotic, they're beautiful and they're a chaos. Um, and then often they'll come out with a product that's very interesting if they can work together. Um, but the, it's almost like the more they get to know each other, the more comfortable organizations get.
There's so many, there's so many challenges that, that come up with these types of teams as well. Um, so I don't think there's a perfect. Perfect solution, all that to say. I think it's, I think that, you know, we need to manage people's expectations, um, through the process. It's like valuing people's experience, valuing their ideas, but then also someone needs to be able to make decisions, right?
Yes. Yeah. And those first ideas, they may not be the right ones. Uh, but they may, they may spur someone's creativity to get you to the right one. And, you know, I think if you're going to pick up a bow and arrow, and if you're going to shoot at the target, I don't think you're going to hit a bullseye the very first time.
I think you have to be prepared to miss the mark in the process of hitting that bullseye. And, you know, Making mistakes and making suggestions that ultimately lead to a better place is, is part of the process. And I think it's a really great thing when an organization can be open and they can have brainstorming sessions and keep things moving.
Because I think we live in a world where change is so constant and it's so fast. We have to become, we have to figure out a better model. And Right of how to organize things into how to, how to think of these things quickly and efficiently and not, not waste time, so to speak, um, in, in one organization I worked for, we would do these, like, very well intention, intention sessions where, you know, we take a day.
The management team would work on certain projects, and we were all just so nervous and apprehensive to share, and because of that, the organization didn't progress. And this was an organization that said they valued innovation. And. I wish I could tell the senior leadership that, you know, when people are not participating, that's a message, right?
That's, they, yeah, they're afraid to put forward these ideas, and they just weren't, I don't believe. It was intentional. I think they truly believed they thought of innovation, but that's where I get back to the diversity of thought and having these open, robust discussions that are used to generate like new ideas or new products, new services, new processes.
Those are really important. And, um, I totally agree. It's about trust. I mean, trust is the foundation for everything, right? If you can't trust the people that you work with, um, it's going to be very difficult, but people are also very, um, attached. to their own thoughts, especially strong minded people.
Absolutely. Absolutely. And it didn't really hit home. Like after, after I got really burnt out, I started taking courses and I took this one change management course and it was so valuable to me because the instructor was incredible. And this was at Royal Roads University. And She told us and, and taught us through like literature and, and different research, all change begins with a loss.
And I had never thought of it that way. And it is so true because whether it is a small change or a big change, everyone loses something right off the bat. So for example, if you're implementing a new software system, you have to lose your, um, capability, so to speak, and your expertise in that software system.
You could have worked with that software system for five years and you were really good at it. And now you have to lose. That that part of you that knows what you're doing and step into a new program where you don't know what you're doing. And I think it's that loss that really holds us back. And yes, that new software system may be wonderful and 10 times better than the last one.
But I think people forget that that loss. It's what holds us back from change. Now, do you think there is hope in an organization, um, where, you know, there, it's a very command and control environment, um, you know, maybe the trust isn't, isn't very high, uh, and folks are starting to feel burnt out, like, Where would you as a, um, maybe a, like a mid level manager or a director, uh, where would you start?
Would you, would you think there's hope to make change within the organization and to manage upward there? I'll always believe in hope. I know. I'm a hopeful person and I do believe it. I just think there has to be the right conditions. So, and I, I do really believe that the culture over the organization.
Has to come from the top and if you're pushing the culture from the bottom up, it's going to be a lot more taxing on people emotionally. It's going to be a lot more work. It's going to take a lot longer. I do believe that there is hope because even in your own work group. You can have your own microculture, so to speak.
Um, and you can start building up that microculture, and hopefully that will spread to other cultures, and here is how we apply it. And there is strategy involved, so, you know, you can speak to your own VP, you can speak to, you know, the executive management, you can try your best, but ultimately, And this is, this has been a really hard lesson for me to learn.
If people aren't open to having the conversation and they're not willing to listen, it's going to be a really hard, long road. And maybe it'll take some creativity to think, you know, who can we get on our side to help bring on the executive management? And I know they have different priorities and different stresses, and that's part of the nature of the game.
And when you think about doing the right thing and sustainability, it doesn't just mean the environment, right? You need to have sustainability in your workplace. You need to, um, think about how much it actually costs your business. So, um, when I listened to a previous episode of yours with Eleanor Eves and corporate trauma, it, it really costs the business.
the organization a lot. And I think if it were easier to measure, we would do it and we could see it. It's, it's a tough thing to measure. And I've thought about this being an accountant, but turnover, there's a cost to that. Um, and those are very, Very easy to track costs. So you've got like you've got a post for new positions.
You've got an interview. There's all that time. You've got to get that person up to speed training all of that. And if you look at
Are we trapping our employees? And what I mean by that is, are you paying them so much that they're never going to leave? And I believe in paying people what they're worth, but I also believe in having, having freedoms and autonomy so that they are able to speak their mind to help enable those changes. I mean, I would be seriously interested in how transparent that organization is, um, organizations that don't want to measure, you know, their HR metrics, um, change over time.
Um, they tend not to be very transparent in general. And there's a reason for that. It's not difficult to measure these things, like you said. So what's the reason why we're not measuring them and publicizing those details? Yeah, and you can measure a lot of metrics that make you look good. Oh, sure. Yeah.
Yeah. And it's, it's This is what I always do when I go on Amazon, like I've learned, I want to buy a product. Yeah, I could, I could read the good reviews and make myself feel better. I'm like, yes, but no, I want to read the bad reviews and I want to take those bad reviews seriously. And when, you know, companies are doing survey after survey after survey, put the, put the positive responses aside.
And take a look at those negative responses. And of course, there's going to be jaded people, there's going to be ones that, you know, don't really have any merit to them, but there's also going to be patterns. So look for the patterns. And there's also going to be, um, grains of truth in there. And I think you have to mine for that.
Yeah. And you have to ask the right questions, like a yes or no question. That's not going to give you the answery answer that you want. Sorry. It it's going for these like non binary questions and asking them that the hows and the history and, and getting to those situations where you're mining for that gold.
And you have to be prepared to hear something that you don't potentially like because what else is growth then taking your, your faults or your shortcomings and building them up, and there's nothing wrong with it we all have. You know, shortcomings, but, um, Adam Grant, um, in his book, Hidden Potential, he talks about how organizations should build scaffolding systems.
They are a support, they're meant to be temporary, they're meant to get people to where they need to be. Right. And then when they're there. You remove the scaffolding. And I thought that was such a great way of, you know, introducing a support system because, you know, you want to keep people, you want to grow people, you want to make things better.
And I couldn't think of a better way of saying it than a scaffolding. You put it in place when you need it, take it away when it's, when you're done. Yeah. It's a great, great metaphor for sure. Um, yeah, there should be specific interventions Uh, specific phases of an employee's career, you know, like when they're onboarding, there should be specific interventions for onboarding with mentoring support, with training, um, to get them up to speed as quickly as possible, make them feel like they belong, help them, you know, integrate into the culture of the organization, um, when they're advancing in their career, same thing.
If there's a new responsibility or accountability. They're the same thing. Right. You know, there are phases, very specific phases where there should be some kind of intervention. And if there's not, then, you know, organizations is why organizations become chaotic, because there is no continuity. Right.
People are having to learn things on their own, which is, you know, it's not a bad thing, but, um, yeah, it's not a bad thing. Um, and it can be a good thing because you have a sense of accomplishment to sit down and figure it out. It's just that, uh, for me, um, I also did not take responsibility for all the things that was going on like outside of work as well.
So there is just so much like. All at once. And, um, I really needed, um, boundaries, which I didn't hold to very well. And I remember when I was in the thick of it, um, I did tell my boss, you know, I'm really tired. I need the weekend off. I just need to rest. And because we were in budget season, I was the only one who was, Who is doing it.
I was the only one who knew the software program. So it wasn't really great in terms of like continuity or, uh, backup. It was just, you know, it was sad because. You know, my boss said to me, sorry, I really need you to come in. I know you need to rest, but come in. And, you know, I was like, okay, I'll do it. I'll like rip my teeth.
I'll come in. And, you know, I think. Looking back on it, not that I wanted to ever say no, but I would have been better off to say, actually, let let me just take one day off. Let me come in on Sunday. Let me have that day of rest and I'll be able to serve you better. And yeah, um, I do think in a lot of organizations too, there's a lack of focus on the internal departments.
The ones that serve the people. So, you know, it's funny. Certain departments always have certain sort of, um, reputations. So the legal department, the accounting department, you know, the marketing department, you know, so like the marketing departments are the fun ones. And so it's been valid. Yeah. Public relations.
They're great. But accounting, uh, like they have so many rules and, and it's true. We do have a lot of rules, but we're doing it for the good of the organization. Right. And there are reasons for it. And it's, it's just a shame that, uh, there isn't that, um, sort of recognition that all departments are really needed in a business and we need to focus on the internal as well, much as the external.
Yeah. And often, um, that sort of, that sensibility or that, you know, That vibe, I guess, comes from the leader. You know, the, the person who has the most power within an organization office often sets the tone. Um, so you'll see organizations that, you know, some organizations highly value sales and that's all they care about to the detriment of almost anything, everything else and other organizations value governance almost to the detriment of everything else.
And you can, you can usually guarantee that that's where. Their leadership, you know, started from is, is, was one of those things. And I think that's really interesting. So I think, you know, as leaders, again, allowing yourself to be influenced, right. We're going back to that, allowing yourself to be influenced and taking in many different points of view in order to make decisions and really valuing other people's perspective.
It's super important. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, there are lots of, lots of companies out there and one, um, would be Workday. Um, they have co CEOs. And I think that's fantastic because it's, it's a heavy burden for one person to hold. And especially when you have such a large corporation, like having co CEOs, it's great.
You can bounce ideas off of each other. You can cover for each other, you know, like it's much more balanced approach. Um, and I think, uh, the more we look at different ways of doing things, I think the healthier companies can also become. Definitely. Um, yeah. Each company can do things that fits their model and their culture.
And, you know, employees can also do things that fits them, their needs and their schedules. I mean, COVID, if COVID taught us nothing, it was that we needed flexibility and the ability to have individuality, um, and, you know, Cover their needs, right? 100 percent Um, and yeah, and I think that you know, some people want to be in the office and some people don't want to be in the office but the vast majority of people want a little bit of both like the flexibility just to be treated as an adult You know, um, and I think that's, you know, that's certainly, uh, one of the motivations that I had for, you know, starting a business that values those sorts of things is, you know, you can bring on better employees.
Awesome team members. Um, you know, and just people are drawn to that, right? That, that, um, that culture. Um, so if there's nothing else, if there was one thing that you wanted people to take away from this conversation, uh, what, what would that be? I would like people to be kind to themselves and to realize if you're feeling in a workplace that you're the odd person out, I guarantee you're not.
There are other people like you all over the place feeling the same way. And perhaps, you know, it's, it's a good way, or it's a good jumping off point to investigate coaching or getting a thinking partner because there's so much value in doing the work and if you're in a financial place that you know you can't afford it, there's lots of opportunities to to join or to take part in coaching programs.
So when people are learning how to coach, they need to put in, uh, you know, a certain amount of hours to become accredited. And that's a really great way of getting the benefits of the coaching, but not necessarily having to pay for it. And there's coaching programs all over the country and you can find them.
Um, like for example, Royal Roads, that was just one of them. They have, you know, You know, tons of coaching programs always going on and if you keep your eye open for when they need people, you can sign up that way or you can investigate how much it would cost for certain coaches, but I, I really highly recommend the value of having a thinking partner.
It doesn't have to be long term. Um, can be short term. And if that doesn't work for you. Look at all the resources out there. So for example, your podcast, um, you put out lots of great episodes on different things and you get people thinking there's so many different, uh, resources out there to help people feel better, right.
Um, and to work through their problems. Yeah. And I think the kinder you can be on yourself, uh, and just do the, know that you're doing the best you can. knowing your values and recognizing that, you know, potentially if I don't fit in here, it's a, it's a value misalignment. And you can realize, you know, maybe this isn't the place for me forever.
And when the right opportunity comes up, then I can, I can realign myself with the values in a different workplace. It, it's a lonely place to be when, you know, you're feeling That you're the crazy one and that people don't believe in you. And. It's not true. There will always be someone who believes in you, you just haven't found the right place for you yet.
Yes. And the more authentic you can be, the more yourself you are, you'll naturally find where you fit. Um, it might take a little longer, you know, the weirder you are for the weirdos out there. It certainly took me a while to figure out where I fit, you know, but, um, eventually the people find you, people find you.
Yeah. Yeah. And I liken it to wearing a really tight, uh, cotton shirt, like a cotton dress shirt, you know, we don't give everyone the same size dress shirt, you know, um, yeah. And when you're unable to move your arms and when you're uncomfortable and when you have to constrict yourself to fit in. That's when you can't perform at your best.
You're, you perform much better when you, you know, are comfortable, when you feel like you fit in an environment. And yeah, that's, that's the, the best thing you can do for yourself. And it, it doesn't always work out when you want to, but just be patient and know that eventually do some work on your values and you will find.
Where you need to be absolutely more is more when it comes to getting support. I think, you know, literally more is more, more of everything, just, you know, try different things, see what works for you. Um, you know, for myself, uh, in my personal development process, it was like, you know, literally everything, YouTube videos, um, you know, podcasts, um, coaching, mentoring, audiobooks, literally audiobooks, like.
Book club, by the way, I wanted to mention this earlier, Annie Duke's book, um, if anyone is listening and they're interested, we have the, um, small business book club through positivist group. So it's positivist. ca slash book dash club. And actually Annie Duke is our next book that we're doing, uh, any Duke's quit and it's, uh, in September sometime.
So yeah, we're meeting virtually in September, so maybe you should join us, Jennifer. I will. Yeah. In that book, she does talk about how people who are very successful, they're practice quitters. And that sounds really counterintuitive, but they're very good at looking at what serves them and what doesn't.
And they're quick to move on to something that serves them. So, uh, take a good read of that book because she has some great advice in there. I can, I can imagine. I haven't read it yet. I'm going to, I've got three weeks, I think. Better get on that. Uh, but yeah, no, I can definitely resonate with that. People say, Aaron, don't you do everything?
I'm like, actually, no, I don't. There's a lot of things I don't do and, and, and on purpose, you know? Um, and, and so we need to decide what it is that we love and what it is that we don't need. That's not serving us. It's not giving us energy. Um, there has to be some kind of energy exchange. If it's just sucking the energy out of me, that's going to be a hard note for me.
Yeah, absolutely. And she does talk about how the common sayings of, you know, quitters never win and winners never quit. That's not helpful. And it's not true because, um, good poker players, for example, they fold more than, um, people who lose a lot of money. So they're very quick and recognizing is that hand going to win?
No fold, fold, fold, and they move on. And then when they do have a winning hand, so, um, quitting is a skill. Um, and it's not something to be ashamed of. It's just recognizing, is this going to work for me? Yes. No. Do I want to spend my limited emotional energy on it? Yes. No. Move on. Yeah. In my previous job, um, we used to say hell yes or hell no with like with clients.
It's like when someone come to us for, for a service. You know, do we want to work with them? Is it a hell yes or a hell no? And there we wanted to make sure there was no gray area, right? No, that's great. I love it. Because if you're, if you're on the fence and you're thinking that's a no, that's a no. It's a no.
Yeah. A hundred percent. Awesome. Thanks so much for coming, Jennifer. It's been great. No, Yeah. Thanks for having me. Um, and if anyone out there wants to get in touch with me, I'm all ears. I love meeting people and talking to them and just hearing their stories and if I can help them out in any way possible, I'd love to do that because like I said, I do believe in we're all put here to make the world a better place and whatever skills and capacities we have.
Amazing. Well, and everything will be in the show notes. So if you need to get ahold of Jennifer, everything will be there. Awesome. Thank you. Thank you.
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With 25 years of experience in HR, Sarah has dedicated her career to empowering leadership teams and coaching emerging leaders in competitive industries. Her unique approach combines bold leadership with kindness and compassion, creating environments where individuals can truly thrive. Get ready to be inspired as Sarah shares her vision of using compassion and humor to unlock the potential in others. Join us as we explore her insights and learn how we can all lead boldly in our own lives!
Stay in touch with Sarah: www.linkedin.com/in/sarah-boardman
To learn more on Sarah and her services: www.lightstonecoaching.com
Script:
Just putting put love out into the world and it's not about being perfect it's not about not using your horn or rolling your eyes it's about you know the intentionality of of looking and saying okay you know what there's a better way.
Welcome to Weirdos in the Workplace, the podcast that celebrates authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose in our world of work today. And I'm very excited to have Sarah Boardman on the show today.
Welcome, Sarah. No, very excited. Wonderful. Okay, so I'm going to just do a little intro for you first. Sarah Boardman has spent 25 years in HR and now works with leadership teams to take their organizations to the next level. Her particular passion is coaching emerging leaders in competitive industries who wish to lead boldly, yet with kindness and compassion. Thanks for joining.
Thank you for having me. I'm excited.
Fantastic. Okay. So why don't you tell everyone out there exactly who you are, what you do, your life story and your purpose all in 30 seconds. All in 30 seconds.
So actually the purpose part is actually the easiest part. So as part of the coaching process, you know, you do your work on yourself first. And, and the thing that they're sort of the two purposes that have emerged for me, there are my initial one was to be the light that illuminates the brilliance of others. So I love seeing that growth. And then as I started my master's journey last year, the first part of that program was, okay, what is your higher purpose? Like what is your research higher purpose? And, and what sort of came to me and like literally almost a bolt, a bolt of lightning was, um, to create understanding around the link between love and profit. So like love is, is, is the thing it matters.
It's, it's not a dirty word at work it's not a four-letter word uh so those are really my purpose and if I actually look back at my life um it's it's been there since the beginning so my parents emigrated from the UK as sort of specifically to have us they had a technology here to fix my mom's infertility that they didn't have there. So, you know, they made this, this giant leap, a large part of it was so that they could have a family. So even though we were separated from our bigger family, we were, you know, we had this unit and my parents, I was just saying to a girlfriend this morning, like, I think my mother created the concept of chosen family. Like they just really created an environment for us where we had that.
So we grew up, we were so privileged, you know, we grew up being extremely loved and, and talking about it. And, and again, love was, was always set, you know, every time we hung up, every time we leave the house, every time you, you know, it just was. And, and so I think, you know, the, the, the weirdo part for me, which is why I love the name of this podcast is, is that didn't always translate to, to corporate. And, you know, if I had a dollar for every time that I was told you're too much, I, I would be doing this you know from the Caribbean or you know Vancouver Island or you know somewhere like you know real estate unattainable because that's that's the weirdo part is that you're too much you're too much you're too much you're too much you're too much and so the the inner battle has been that no I'm not I'm not um even something is as you know simple as as being enthusiastic about something like it's it's sort of surprising to me how many people in in corporations are offended by enthusiasm it's like really just saying yeah so it's it's it's just that so that's the the weirdo part and and so five years ago I left I never thought that I'd be an entrepreneur I never thought I'd have my own business I'm like like staunch like employee roots like I'm you know I'm an early adopter I'm someone who wanted the the front of the bus getting people organized but I realized I had to leave to be able to step into that too much and when you do work for yourself and you're you know I I only work with nice people .
I have the great privilege of working with some truly truly truly amazing organizations they bring you in because of the too much yeah because of those things right it's like all those things like you're told to stamp down for you know 25 years of my career all of a sudden they're like oh you're so enthusiastic we just love it it's so great you know you bring so much humor to this and I'm like it's interesting actually um I it's something I've mentioned to a few people who've been on the podcast who are also like consultants it works really well as a consultant to have that passion and drive but it doesn't always translate as well into your everyday you know work environment for whatever reason um it's interesting. But I also do think the world of work is changing. And I think maybe businesses are a little more open, you know, to adopting. They're definitely getting there. They're getting there for sure.
And that like we've talked about, like, that's what gives me the hope. Yeah. And I think the Gen Z, like you were saying on our previous call, I think they're really starting to drive the bus here. I think they're starting to drive the bus. And I think they're starting to recognize that someone else, so they can drive the bus or they can let someone else drive the bus or they can get off the bus and on the bus. And it's like, hey, it's just a bus. The bus is a construct.
It's not the thing anymore. And then, I mean, Gen Alpha is going to do like incredible things as well so you know getting the privilege of seeing that um and just working with emerging leaders who get it like they just get it and they get why and they're very intentional and very purposeful about the way that they want to lead which is really really like it's it's inspiring and humbling but also like yeah like it's about time so it's awesome right yeah I mean I I know I've talked to a lot of people about this there's a few of coaches in Ottawa who really believe that like love is what you know is is the concept is the thing that is going to you know if we can change the world and have like world domination for good like I always say you know love is what's going to change it right um and I know I was never hesitant to to say I love you like to my employees and I know you were mentioning like that's kind of an HR nightmare earlier that might be an HR nightmare um and that's okay it depends but when you when you're in an environment and again love isn't just like I love you it's it's attention it's listening so um in May I went to the IOC conference in Boston and Dr. Robert Waldinger, who's leading the Harvard study on on happiness and life is like an 85 year study.
And, you know, he quoted John Tennant, who said, you know, attention is the most basic form of love. So even if we show our team's attention, if we listen, if we regard, if we're caring, all of those things are in this like love bucket that we're, you know, however we choose to say it, it is the only thing that will change things. I think it is taking the hard path though in a lot of organizations, right? Like if you choose to take this path, you're taking the path less traveled. You're taking the path, you know, your competitors may not be taking this path. And so there are pros and cons, right.
That we should probably elaborate on a little bit. You know, if you're an organization that wants to take this love approach, this caring approach, the empathy approach, the know the um the grace approach giving people grace and time and space and health and wealth you know and all these things um you may be shocked at how your competitors treat your their employees and that they may be actually getting further ahead of you because of it sometimes yeah again i think it depends what matters to the organization so um like last year at royal roads we were really fortunate to be there on indigenous people's day so we had an indigenous scholar that came in and talked to us and robin ward and she said you know she often gets asked like what is decolonization and what she, she's like, I'm going to give you the really simple example.
It's moving from fear-based and command and control to a love-based leadership. And, and I think that what is going to happen is maybe the command and control gets a little bit further ahead for a little while, but it will, it will get stuck or it will, you know, everyone's going to go, oh, wait a minute. I want to be treated better over here. This will slowly, but surely, you know, it is the, the, the tortoise and the hare.
I, I just, I can't live in a world where love doesn't ultimately win. And when you, when you treat people with respect and you listen to them and they know they're valued and you know you're you're you're holding you know you're ensuring accountability there's productivity there's effectiveness it's not that it's just this big like you know love circle anything goes done right yeah it's it's how you choose to treat people most people will take that over an extra ten thousand dollars because we're starting to realize the impact it has and and not everyone will and that's okay and that's what makes the world go around but i just i can't live in a world where it doesn't ultimately win or it doesn't ultimately get at least the same because people want to be there they're they're proud of the work they do they love their co-workers they love their passionate what they do they love their job we spend more time with our co-workers than we do with our spouse yeah that's true for sure so like why would I want to work with a bunch of jerks no I'm curious what do you think like love looks like as a business process I I think it looks like asking questions and actually listening and acting on the responses I think it's being compassionate and seeing people.
So one of the things I would say in my leadership development is we are a stew, not a bento box. So we show up as a stew. We've got, you know, home, family, kids, parents, you know, society, all these things in this, you know, big, beautiful bowl. We're not like, oh, now it's nine to five I only think about work or this or that like understanding that people have things going on and when you um you know building trust and building relationships and knowing people so that when someone says hey you know what my dad's not doing very well you say okay what do you need to do and somebody goes to work for six weeks from their dad's house right like yeah it's not it's not that hard and so that's that's why I think that even though like the love word has this like big like romantic and you know groovy connotation it's actually the roots of it are, you know, attention, intention, and respect and just respecting the person.
So what does love look like at work? It looks as, you know, acting with integrity and, you know, all of the trust things like speaking, you know, not speaking of someone when they're not in the room or, you know, list like really listening to what people have to say, letting people finish a sentence yeah saying what do you think and then actually listening saying oh oh here's a big one that's love apologize i'm sorry i need to i didn't i didn't mean to hurt you i didn't realize that i'm really sorry and here's like love next level make amends right you got the acknowledgement how can i win you trust back i'm really sorry i didn't mean to do that what like how can i help you and then respecting what the person says if they're like i'm just really mad right now i can't deal with it okay you say okay let me know when you are like whatever the case is all of the things that we talk about love are actually just being a good human right and that's where like that human-centered leadership I think that's where emerging leaders are are like absolutely kicking ass and taking names yeah so far above and beyond for sure so far and they just they get it we talk about this stuff in leadership development nobody ever bats an eye I've never once I've I have a leadership development program that I run and I've done it with probably 300 people.
And not once has anybody said, well, they should want to do it because I asked them to. Okay. No, people just want to be good because they know how they want to be treated so it's it's really it's really powerful it's incredibly hopeful like and and so energizing like i it is it is honestly the privilege of my life to get to work with these individuals you know across north America so far who want to lead intentionally and they think about things oh have you seen um one of my favorite books is actually called Against Empathy uh The Case for Rational Compassion yes um because what it talks about is when empathy goes bad um the ruinous empathy like the um when empathy goes into its shadow right and so i think it's a really good book uh because it's very well balanced uh you know because we do have a generation of gen zs right now and then Gen Alpha after that and I've got three Gen Zs right that I'm raising I've got 19, 17, 15 year olds and a couple of them have very high empathy levels and so and we're encouraged it's not that we're we don't want to discourage it right and like you're saying you, you're seeing this in your Gen Z emerging leaders, you know, how, you know, how intuitive and empathetic and they've just grown up with specific values and very open-minded, right. Very willing to adapt and willing to accept other people's perspectives.
My, my concern sometimes is that, you know, we're not prepared. We're not preparing them necessarily for how hard the corporate world and how cutthroat and ruthless it can be because not everyone has empathy. In fact, the episode that came out this week was literally about psychopaths in the workplace and how prevalent that can be, you know, so we're not necessarily preparing them well for the psychopaths in the workplace. Although one of the things Amy Davies, the guest this week said is that this style of culture, the empathy culture, this like gratitude culture is very difficult for psychopaths.
So anyways, I'm curious what you think about that. How can we also prepare? I think it's an and like, how can we also prepare them for this? Right. That's, I mean, it's such a great question because we still have to get stuff done. still have to make the widgets we still have to you know like all of the things need to be done and so i think we're still figuring this piece out but you know empathy isn't at the exclusion of of ensuring accountability and it's not it's not looking at that but what i do see which is really interesting is, is a, I'll call it like a broader self-awareness where people show empathy to themselves. So, so I'm Gen, I'm Gen X. So we just put up with shit. Like we got, we got yelled at, we got, you know, told we were stupid. We got, you know, like, like harassed up the like it's just it just was right it was different it was different in the 80s and 90s and we're like okay i guess this is just the way that it is so no that's wrong and i i have to wonder if if we'd had empathy and there were situations that I left like there were situations where I was like no I'm not dealing I'm not doing with this I'm I'm worth more than this but I think that's that's the balancing piece is is people who who know what it feels like to be led well and with empathy and, and with passion and purpose, they will, they will leave.
They will, they will, you know, vote with their feet and get you, you out. So if you treat people like crap, they're going to leave. And so at some point, all the bullies just end up together when it's like, no, I'm not going to do that I'm not going to be treated that way they they will leave and and like my dad you know was at the same organization I think for like 20 something years and before that it was like 15 years we don't see that anymore we do see you know transitions more but from what I'm hearing and what I understand is people are leaving for that leadership culture they're leaving you know for promotion more.
But from what I'm hearing, and what I understand is people are leaving for that leadership culture, they're leaving, you know, for promotion, but they're also leaving for like, this is more aligned with how I want to live my life. So we're understanding that the roles that the ingredients of the stew, like you can't have stew without onions, and you can't have, you know, work without challenge, but what kind of challenge? So I think that, you know, the concept of ruinous empathy, that's radical candor, right? We're like, like, everything is okay. It's like, no, not everything is okay. We do have to, we have work to do. And so people are more aware. So they're, they're making intentional choices of what I'm moving to. And so even like I haven't worked in corporate for five years, but even like the last couple of years of that corporate, people are starting to say, okay, what is the management team function like? What is this like? It wasn't necessarily, they were asking questions about the work, but it was more about like, what's the leadership? What's the culture? Like, how does this work?
So people are becoming aware of it. So I think, I think people are aware that there's a balance, but I also think that people are internalizing what that balance means to me. So self-awareness is a part, part of the protection I think as well. Right. Oh my gosh. So I have said a thousand times that self-awareness is the most important leadership skill. Yeah, it absolutely is because if you are not self-aware, you can't improve. No, you, it just, it just doesn't work. So that self-awareness and again, that's a journey that never ends. And awareness, it's self-awareness, but it's also just awareness in general, right? It's the external awareness and the internal awareness. We need to be sensing, we need to sense into the environment. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And, and I think that's where, I think that's where, you know, later generations are just better at that. And, and folks, folks who've done the work too.
So like, you know, when I say emerging leaders, some of them are my age, some of them are, you know, like mid fifties and, and it's just, that's where they're in their career or, you know, they made a change or whatever, but it's still that same idea of, of, okay, how did I do? Did I do that? Okay. Yeah. You know what? That went well, that didn't, that didn't like that self-assessment is just become a critical leadership skill. And I, I see people being able to do that. And that's really exciting. So I mean, the leadership anxiety has never been higher. And I wonder how much of our like, this like necessity for awareness and sensing into everything. You know, there's so many variables. And now we're we're you know we're taking it all on ourselves all this complexity we're taking inside of us you know and trying to parse it out as best as we can uh how much do you think that's contributing to the levels of anxiety today for leaders so i have a little bit of a different thought on that and it's it's interesting because as soon as you said leadership anxiety I thought oh fear so you know it's interesting because one of the first things I say in the program is okay I'm gonna like spoiler alert most of leadership is being a good person right yeah and go and be Oh, it's like, you're going to make mistakes.
Yeah. You're going to do things wrong. You're going to screw up. You're going to hurt people unintentionally. You're going to completely mess up something to tell you, but that's what's going to happen. But how we react to that and how we treat people after is, is, is the true leadership piece. So I tend to think that most of that leadership anxiety comes from that fear based leadership. Am I doing the right thing? Am I doing this? Am I going to get in trouble? Am I going to get in trouble? If I give that person the day off, their mom died, can they take an extra week? Oh my gosh, you know, their mom died and their dad's not doing well. Can I give them an extra week? What's going to happen there? I feel like a lot of the, the, the anxiety comes from that fear. And if we're able to just lead authentically.
And again, we all have like, I'm HR, like God knows I love a policy. I love a, you know, I love a standard, right. It's like, okay. But there's, there's a human approach to, to all of that. And so it's, we, we need and want, I think, to be flexible. Yeah. And I think part of the anxiety comes from not knowing how much give things have and not knowing that flexibility. So I think when I look at leaders who are anxious, I see a lot of fear there, a lot of fear, making a mistake, fear of doing the wrong thing fear of getting in trouble fear of what their boss is going to say fear of the shareholders you know right like like a lot of it is fear-based yeah what it's a you know how how can they make a decision i'm almost we're at the point where almost any decision is the right to just make a decision which is interesting because coming from from people looking at their leader um when google did their um what makes a good leader like ability to make a decision like make a decision and stand in it i think we've all had that leader that's like okay we're gonna all wear orange t-shirts tomorrow and they're like oh well no oh sorry i told him blue and i told him yellow and like well orange like yeah make a decision yeah yeah yeah and feel confident to to stand in the decision right it's that that confidence yeah and and sometimes we have it and sometimes it's beat out of us and sometimes we have to do all the work to get it but I I see a lot of the anxieties coming from fear yeah I am I'm i'm with you 100 do you see the same fear in the gen z's as you do as they're as you do in their their more mature leaders i i would say emerging leaders have less fear in their cocktail that way so i'm going to say that I'm not going to say there's no fear, but I'm going to say there's what, what I see again, this is just in my practice and my business and the people I get to work with, I see less fear.
And I, the, the, I think the less fear comes from knowing that you're not going to get um I don't know why I just had this memory but like in French class if we said something wrong like we'd literally get like chalk chucked at our head totally yeah sometimes it hit sometimes it didn't and and when you grow up thinking you know it can't make a mistake, you know, teachers in, in the late nineties and two thousands weren't allowed to throw chalk. So, so they kind of like, that's, I think where it came from. And that's why there is absolutely fear and there's anxiety. And we know that, you know, anxiety rates among, you know, millennials and younger generations are skyrocketing. But I, I think the fear of leadership is less because they haven't been conditioned as much yet. Maybe they just have so much overall anxiety that doesn't even register. Oh God, right? And the loneliness epidemic.
Oh, I know. Oh my God. Like the Surgeon General of the US has actually declared a loneliness epidemic. And I think it's like 24 to 35 is the worst heartbreaking when you're supposed to be, that's your prime party time. Yeah. I have so many questions around that and I don't have enough information to be able to even ask the question. Like I, you know, I have to have the conversation properly. Really? I am, I am, but scratching the surface and I'm sure you could do the podcast. They would do an amazing job of talking about the loneliness epidemic. That's interesting. I only, cause I don't see that in my children. Right. I don't see that. And I'm not seeing that in a lot of people. I'm like, I'm trying to figure out where that is like like call me I'm open give me a call I'll always answer um yeah I mean I know one of the hangovers from COVID and when I was at the IOC conference they were talking a lot about the loneliness epidemic and were saying that loneliness uh again not sure where it came from I don't know where to cite it but it was loneliness was the same as smoking 15 cigarettes a day oh yeah that sucks like the same impact on your wow your body yeah it's like whoa but even like like I don't know about you but like when I was a kid I wanted to do something I picked up the phone and I was like hey can Natasha play I was probably the loneliest child in the entire world I didn't oh really oh yeah no I didn't even talk outside of my house basically until I was like 11.
You had said that in yeah you had said that in an earlier one yeah so my like really my first like really good well she's my best friend she's my co-founder now, Sarah, I met her in grade five and I had a couple of playmates before them, but nothing really like nothing that really stuck or anything that I was comfortable with. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I was, yeah. Talk about lonely. Like, you know, that was, that was awful. So if anyone's feeling that, like, please, I'm not even kidding when I say, so if anyone's feeling that like please I'm not even kidding when I say call me please you know talk about it right because there's no reason to feel that way like I I did feel that way for my entire childhood and learned how to learn how to be a I always say Sarah taught me how to be a person right because I didn't know I didn't know how to socialize I didn't know how to be a person. Right. Cause I didn't know, I didn't know how to socialize. I didn't know how to talk to people. I couldn't talk to people literally. Yeah.
And I look, I do a podcast now, so I think, you know, we can learn these skills. Yeah. And run a successful business and do all these other things. That's actually a really interesting point though, is they can be learned. Totally. They can be learned and we can, like, there is a cure to loneliness there is there is no reason for people to be lonely yeah I believe that yeah yeah yeah wow it's just it's I'm really sorry to hear that but amazed that you were able to like overcome it but yeah like when we just I mean god we have lonely days or whatever but like imagine being lonely yeah yeah yeah that's and and lonely when you work right like you you know you you go to work you do remote you do whatever um you know it speaks to hybrid and remote you know then the extra need for connectivity but um I know a lot of people are really big fans of remote work and I am sometimes one of them, two minds of it, you know, and, and one of my, one of my, half of my brain says, you know, people need to be in the office. Sometimes people need to see other people. And see you know work is is such a big part like you said before we see our colleagues more than anyone else in our lives pretty much unless we're literally at home isolating ourselves at a desk because we don't want to go in the office you know and it takes some get up and go some motivation and so maybe it's painful I remember coming back to the office after the pandemic I was like like, I don't want to do it.
You know, but then I went in and I was like, I forgot how fun this was. Yeah. My, my brother-in-law has was off for a number of years with some health concerns and he goes back five days a week. He works for the feds and he's like, Oh, I want to be with the peoples yeah the adults especially yeah right yeah well I mean that's it and like someone to confide in yeah right and someone to to say things out loud like you know when you don't talk to somebody like till like 10 in the morning you're like like just like does your voice stop working if you don't talk to anybody like oh my gosh when I first had my son, I was 20 years old when I was pregnant. I just turned 21 when I had him. And I remember that first year, I hardly talked to anyone. I didn't know how to be a mom. I didn't know how to socialize. I like retreated right back into my shell again. And I came finally when I was like, okay, I need to do something about this. I need to get out of the house. I need to talk to people. I literally forgot how to talk. I literally had forgotten how to communicate with people completely. I was like a bumbling idiot. I had no idea what I was going to say or how to say it or do anything. I was, it, you can lose it. You can lose it. And that's, so when I was working with organizations organizations sort of as we were coming back into the office, they were like, people are forgetting their manners.
They're forgetting like table manners, like all these things. But we do forget when we, you know, isolated and lived in our family little bubble. It's a muscle, it's a muscle that needs to be flexed and needs to be worked out and, and needs to be stretched and, and, you know, paid attention to, but yeah, I, I'm, I have no issue. Like, yeah, absolutely. We would forget. Yeah. With others. Yeah. I think this circles back really nicely to the, the love conversation where, you know, we can kind of summarize with like, people need people. People need people. They need to feel listened to. They need to feel valued. And they need to be connected. Whatever form that looks like, whatever you want to call it, love is connection and connection is love.
Yeah, totally agreed. And I think that you can do that virtually, but I think it's really hard and I don't think people do it very well I think you have to work harder at it and there's that intentionality piece I have to reach out to my people every day yeah just a quick check-in I we have to have videos on videos on for meetings I want to see your face I want to you know I want to see your expression I want to ask you about the plant in your background yeah yeah absolutely it's it's it's harder for sure yeah yeah yeah well did you have anything else that you wanted to say any words of wisdom or goodness any words of wisdom keep looking for the hope and looking for the love because you will see it a thousand times a day. And, you know, to everyone that I get to work with, profound thank you. And thank you, Erin. This has been amazing. Just putting, put love out into the world. And it's not about being perfect. It's not about not using your horn or rolling your eyes. It's about, you know, the intentionality of, of looking and saying, okay, you know what, there's a better way. And it's not a word.
Yeah. Awesome. Thank you so much.
Thank you. Thank you so much.
Don't forget to stay weird, stay wonderful, and don't stay out of trouble!
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Meet Jaya Kaushik, a trailblazer whose journey began as a new Canadian immigrant and transformed into a powerful force for change in Canadian society.
As a Talent Management Professional and because of her lived experience, Jaya is integrating numerous components of diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging in her work.
Her story is one of resilience and ambition, weaving together her experiences from transportation, retail, banking, and leadership development, which has led her to the incredible role of preparing for Canada's first ever Hard Rock Hotel and Casino!
Stay connected with Jaya:
https://ca.linkedin.com/in/jaya-kaushik
Script:
If you receive a roadblock from one person, always look outside the box. That's what I do. Do not hinder yourself just because you received one no. If there's like one no, there could be four yeses. So just think outside the box. The world is a beautiful place. People are willing to help you if you are willing to receive that help, love and compassion from them.
Welcome to Weirdos in the Workplace, the podcast that celebrates authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose in our world of work today. And what a crazy world it is. My name is Erin Patchell, and I am your host, and I'm here with Jaya Kaushik. Thank you so much for joining us, Jaya. Pleasure.
Thanks, Erin Erin for inviting me here to your podcast. Thank you uh okay so folks Jaya is an immigrant a person of color if you can't see Jaya if you're not looking if you're not watching this on YouTube but you're you know watching this on the podcast she is a person of color and a woman who believes in fostering impact through diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging. She is the talent management lead at Hard Rock Ottawa, developing strategies around recruitment and training initiatives to prepare for the launch of the first Hard Rock Hotel and Casino in Canada, which is really exciting. And I'm really curious to learn more about that as well, Jaya, if you have a few minutes. Yeah, for sure. For sure.
Definitely. I mean, a quick snapshot is I relocated my entire life from Winnipeg to Ottawa for this exciting thing that is coming into existence in April next year. We are going to have the first Hard Rock Hotel and Casino. It's right now in 74 countries across the globe. And finally, Canada is going to have its first one. So we've taken over Rideau, Carleton Casino, and we are building a hotel. So it's going to be, the racetrack's still going to be there. We're going to have like 10 restaurant outlets. So, you know, it's going to be a whole new entertainment business with the tinge of gaming added to it. So it's going to be fun, exciting. But the best part about it, Aaron, is, you know, bringing in all those folks.
So we're going to be hiring for around 500 folks. So, you know, going to have massive recruitment initiatives. We are starting right now in August up to April next year. So it's going to keep all of us quite busy. No doubt. No doubt. How exciting. I cannot wait to actually see this in action. It sounds like it's going to bring a lot of value to Ottawa for sure. That's great. Well done. Yeah. And also congratulations to you for like uplifting your whole life and moving here. You know, I think that's an extremely brave thing to have done. That's an extremely brave thing to have done. Yeah, I moved quite a bit. So I came as an immigrant in 2019 here in Canada, and I was back there in Nova Scotia. And then, you know, I've always moved for my career. I moved to New Brunswick. And then, you know, there was some readjustments within the family. So I relocated to Winnipeg. And finally, when this opportunity came knocking at my door, I'm like, I cannot say no to this.
I mean, I did not have experience in the casino or entertainment industry, but I thought that this is exciting. This is something which I believe in because I really value constant learning involvement, along with bringing innovation through continuous improvement mindset so I'm like what impact can I bring when something is not built but is in the transition phase so that was my motivation to come and join as a talent management lead here and you know move my entire life from Winnipeg to Ottawa. It's been quite a few months. I relocated in February this year, but I'm loving Ottawa so far. That's good.
I'm glad because it would be kind of unfortunate if you didn't like it. So because it sounds like you're going to be stuck here for a little while longer. But, you know, I love Ottawa as well. I think that the community here is lovely and the it's so close to so much nature as well if you love nature and um now it sounds like we have a new director of nightlife in Ottawa um so maybe we'll even have some exciting things to do you know after dark at some point uh it sounds like Hard Rock Cafe fits right nicely into the strategy. For sure. I mean, Hard Rock is keeping busy. The amount of professional networks. I mean, I met you at the social HR camp, Erin, and, you know, building that professional network within the community is so amazing.
Just inviting all those community partners and building that strategic relationship and just people have been just so nice and kind and they are so open to any opportunity sometimes even if the partnership does not work they're always willing to keep that connection and that's that's really inspiring for me well I think your energy is amazing And I know the last conversation that we had around, we were talking more around, you know, DEI and B and a little bit of the accessibility, because that's kind of more in my, in my purview these days. But your energy around this is amazing. I think that, you know, you have a really interesting perspective on it, that you have a really interesting perspective on it, mainly because it sounds like you've really thought about how to integrate DEIB into the business processes, which I think is really interesting. And one of our previous podcast guests, Kathleen Johnson, a few weeks ago, we were talking about how important that really is, you know, to integrate DEIB as an operational process.
It's not just a philosophical values driven thing anymore. What do you think about that? is professional or me being interested in DEIB is what that motivates me. I think when you feel or when you've been through something over a period of time or through your professional journey, that kind of lets you in as in, okay, why am I feeling this way? And if I'm feeling this way, maybe someone else, my peers might be feeling the same way. You know, they could belong to different race, religion, ethnicity, maybe a different gender, LGBT community. But if I am feeling a certain way at workplace, we're in a workplace calls it more most diverse. And, you know, they've won so many awards just because on paper or in reports, they show, oh, we did, you know, this event, we did this awareness day, but they do not know, like, you know, it's not just a checkbox. It's basically how your employees are feeling in the moment.
Have you ever, you know, there's always one-on-ones with managers and there's performance evaluation, there's employee engagement surveys, but has anyone gone down that pipeline and asked, hey, has your manager ever, you know, looked down upon you in a certain way because of your culture or because of your identity, or, you know, you've been laughed at by your team members, just because you have a different pronunciation, because you just came from a different country. So, you know, those things get ignored in the process, no matter how many surveys we do, no matter how many one-on-ones we do, no matter how many lunches we do. So it is so important to integrate that. And again, I would say it's not just checking the checkbox or meeting the criteria or winning some awards. It's more about how you're feeling, how you are, you know, how are the employees embracing that culture of the organization. For me, when I join an organization, the values, the, you know, we talk about values, we talk about models and mission statement. It's good we talk about that, but do we actually implement it?
You know, when we say we believe in, you know, authenticity or we believe in bringing your best self forward, and then you are actually doing it, but then your manager's like, oh, why are you dressed this way? That's against the, you know, the dress code policy. Or, you know, if I am a Muslim, and I do not want to attend a meeting in the afternoon, just because I'm'm fasting and I want to have my prayers. Why, you know, my manager is not able to understand that or, you know, why am I not feeling, why am I not being felt included? You know, I've told my manager a month ago that, oh, I'm going to be fasting during Ramadan, but still we have a week-long potluck during that same week or same month. It's just those small examples which a lot of folks at works do not realize. And for them, it's quite normal. And you know, that normalization, Erin, passes on to employees like us where we are like, oh, we cannot make any change maybe that's how we are supposed to be or that's how the culture here is specifically for immigrants like I can speak because I am an immigrant myself you know we have a different culture back in our country and we embrace a new culture here but when we are embracing the diversity, we tend to forget that we can raise voice for ourselves, that we cannot say yes to any, you know, wrong actions or any microaggressive behaviors that have been hurled upon us.
Right. So the question that the world's becoming more multicultural, right? I mean, there's, there's literally no question. The only reason the Canadian population grew last year was because of immigration. And yeah. And I mean, even the most staunch conservatives that I know who are business owners, you know, you know, some people quite close to me, in fact, they admit that, you know, sometimes immigrants are actually the hardest workers that they can actually employ. And so I think that, you know, if you're a business owner and you're not thinking about how can I make my work, my employees, all of my employees, especially people who are immigrants or, you know, have maybe felt like they didn't belong in some way.
How can I make them feel like they belong, like there's a place for them here, like we're taking their culture, their sometimes their religion as well. culture, sometimes their religion as well, and any of the elements that we're not used to, that we don't have experience with, how do we take that into consideration? So how do you do that? My question for you, the big question I think a lot of people think about is how do you find the middle ground when there's so many variables? So one thing we need to realize is that we need to be patient. Right. I cannot, you know, walk into a room one day and be like, OK, you got to understand my culture. You've got to understand, you know, I like this and I don't like this.
And this is not part like no it takes time like that's one thing that both the parties need to realize and we need to be really we need to like have that mindset that okay like people are not going to know that I belong to a certain religion and things are done in a certain way in my culture or in anyone's culture I mean I learned so many new things when I came to Canada so that is one thing is realization and acknowledging the fact that it's not going to be perfect you know it's it's it's you know we we always say it's a journey and it's not a destination so how smooth and how empowering that journey can be. You know, what can you take and what can you leave during that journey? You know, we talk about unconscious biases.
We talk about microaggressive behaviors. How can we make sure that those can be eliminated during this journey? It could be in the form of a conversation. It could be in the form of sensitive training, right? But a lot of it comes down from leadership, you know, how effective the leadership is at your organization, how inclusive, progressive, or how embracing that leadership is. Because I feel that, you you know leaders have a really really really big impact in terms of how it trickles down to managers supervisors and in general all the team members so leadership representation plays a huge role sensitivity training and just in general, like, I feel that whenever, like, if I'm joining an organization and I know I'm going to have, I'm going to be the only person of color there, right? So maybe kind of educating or, you know, generating awareness through lunch and learn or through coffee and chat, but taking that initiative, being bold enough to take that initiative.
And again, I say it, that not to think of yourself as a victim because I feel in most of the cases, like the places I've worked, they have been quite open to the feedback. They've been quite embracing. I mean, I've worked at Hard Rock Hotel and Casino and I think I am the only person of color in my team and probably at site like we do not have, we will soon have a lot of representation. But it's quite fascinating, you know, when I talk about my culture, when I talk about a strategy that can impact someone who is more diverse, or, you know, who has a different representation or an identity. So I feel like there are so many steps, but you got to be, you got to start somewhere. You need to take that initiative and you need to realize it, that it's going to take time. I mean, I came here in 2019, it's 2024.'s 2024 it has taken time you know I was a person who would be like oh why did my manager say that to me and I would be a person who would like who has cried in the washroom and be like why am I feeling that I do not belong here there have been times when you know I want to just run back to my country because I feel I belong there and not here. But then always there is a team member resource group, there are your mentors, there are people who encourage you.
If there are some people who are going to pull you down, there are always going to be people who will lift you up. There will always be like-minded people. There will always be people who really want to think from an inclusive perspective and who are going to understand what you're going through, even if they do not have the same skin color or they do not belong to the same culture, they will be there for you. Right. So whose responsibility is it and whose responsibility should it be? Maybe those are different answers. Maybe it's the same answer. I don't know. To really drive the education on this within an organization. As I mentioned, it's a two-way street, right? I mean, in my case, I was bold enough to be like, well, I know I'm not perfect and this is what I do and this is how I was brought up.
So being vulnerable from, and I know it takes a lot of courage to be vulnerable and a lot of people cannot do it or are not comfortable doing it but even if you do it with your manager or one level up it can have a drastic change but again it needs to be a two-way street the organizations you know a lot of them I think I was talking to someone from our education group and they were saying that how they incorporate sensitive training or like cultural amalgamation training into people coming into the country or you know who are still adapting to the Canadian way of culture or the Canadian lifestyle so that's a great way we're in you know they can be made aware of certain like say business or professional like educates that we follow here and you know like one one basic thing was like back in my country we'd call everyone sir and ma'am right and like it's it's it's a common thing you know sometimes people laugh at you like why are you calling me sir and ma'am whereas it's it's a cultural way it's a way of respect in our country, right? So just for small time things, if they are trained and if even the managers, supervisors and everyone, like I believe it should not be limited to managers and supervisors.
I mean, all the team members, they should go into this cultural immersion training wherein there needs to be a culture that's diverse, there needs to be one company culture that needs to accept. And so I didn't hear human resources anywhere in there. And I know you're an HR professional. So like, a lot of I feel like a lot of managers, sometimes, like, you know, they believe this is an HR core responsibility. You know, the HR should drive all of this. What's your opinion on that? HR, definitely. We build policies. Like right now in my current job duties and responsibilities, I'm responsible for training. So HR has a huge responsibility, but, you know know as HR professionals or like for the outside world we need to realize that we get a lot of pushbacks and challenges as in why do we need it you know what's what's the purpose of this um does it fit into our revenue or does it fit into our budget like what's what's one thing we're going to get out of it you know HR is always thought of like you know we spend money on things right whether it's DEIP initiatives whether it's recruitment whether it's training it's not thought of how we are bringing money back into the organization.
So I would say HR has a role, definitely, Erin. And we have a role in bringing this to life or like coordinating this, but this really needs to start from that awareness standpoint view. I mean, what can HR do when we launch a training, we say that it's mandatory and there is a manager sitting there, and what they're doing is basically click, click, click, click, click, and not even learning what is being told them in the training. So how can we force them to do it until unless they themselves do not realize that it is important for them and the other team members? I mean, that's a huge challenge when you think from a learning and development perspective. How can we make it interactive? How can we make it engaging?
And at the end, how can we make sure that this learning stays with them? You know, I've seen that, like, you know, when I see some of the training courses, like people complete it like a 30 minutes course probably in five minutes skip skip skip skip skip and I'm sitting there and I'm like what's what's the whole point like you know you you pay the vendors you put this entire training but what if like the other person doesn't want to learn? Yeah. Yeah. We have to teach them or like, you know, we have to engage them in the conversation around why it's important and provide that business case.
And that has to, you know, if your leadership can make that case for you even better, because people are much more likely to listen to them. Yeah. I think, why do we have to do that? You know, why do we always need to have someone higher up, right? You know, you got to do this just because I'm your boss. Like that is the mindset I feel as an HR professional or as a DEIB, a person who's really passionate. I just feel how we can, you know, switch that mindset. And, you know, Aaron, sometimes I feel it's simply through a conversation. It's simply through, you know, letting them know that, you know, I know you believe in equality. I know you want the right fit and not a diverse pool of candidates but just think about from perspective of what struggles they've been through or what resources they have not had that is hindering them from like applying to whatever positions we are open I say this because I'd worked with a leader and I was like, you know, we need to do diverse recruitment, as in we probably should focus on LGBTQ, we should focus on women representation, we should focus on this and this community. And he looks at me, he's like, no, we should focus on the best fit. And I'm like, okay, but how's that fair? He's like, because we believe in equality.
And I'm like, what about equity? Right. Like, you know, there is that, there's that picture, which shows that there are two people who are standing on a pedestrian and they both like, you know know they've been provided equal opportunities but one is taller and the other is shorter right so he needs to give be given a higher pedestrian so that the vision is the same for both of them so you know we we say we want the right fit we say that you know like i i just feel that sometimes I missed all this um um you know profit making or revenue generation sometimes we lose that basic human touch the fact that you know not everyone has like you know we were talking about we need to create our own privileges but not everyone has had the same opportunities as everyone else I mean according to a recent yeah according to a recent stats like we talk about representation of women in leadership positions so in Canada women hold about just 35 percent of management occupations and 30 percent of like senior management positions right like that that that really tells like why why we are not doing it it's not that women don't want to go up there or look at the representation of of um like bipoc women it's much much smaller yeah exactly fraction right um and so the representation is is very weak in those cases so um or lgbtq you know uh communities as well um yeah so yeah we've got a lot of work to do i think in those areas and I think it does a lot of the time boil down to like what are the opportunities that people are given to learn yep and um I think from a personal like my personal experience again you know you asked me who's who's role who's who's responsible for this and I say it again and again and I've learned this the hard way that you know if you want it go get it like you know there's like you need to push yourself again like even you know Erin you are you are looking for a job I'm looking for a job just because I feel that I am a visible minority and like you know I'm I'm going to have an upper edge or over you.
No, like I need to strive as hard as you would have to, you know, to get that opportunity. It's just that, you know, you, you got to grab it. You can't just like, I think that is also very important to learn that, you know, we need to strive. We need to have that. We need to learn that you know we need to strive we need to have that we need to take that initiative you know even if I you are my manager I'm like okay Erin like you know you say something to him I'm like okay I'm not okay with it so I need to voice my concern and more and more people need to start doing that rather than like shutting themselves because yeah what if you are willing to learn what if you are the best manager but in my head because of my past experiences I've just made a whole vision of you that you're gonna be the most bitchy manager the most you know like a manager who's not gonna support me being a visible minority at workplace and I'll just because I've heard stories or I've been through some previous experiences so even I as a visible minority need to give you a chance and need to like you know open my spectrum as much as you're gonna do it for me yeah yeah that's I think that it's interesting um that you know, a lot of hard work accumulated over a whole lifetime, I think can balance things out quite a bit.
But I think there's also a lot of truth in that it is a, it's really hard for people to find jobs right now. There's, I mean, you guys have 500 jobs, which is amazing, by the way. So 500 new jobs, like in the Ottawa area. So awesome. But it is actually really tough right now. The economy is really tough right now for job seekers. And I think sometimes immigrants, it's easy. It's kind of easy to feel like it's because of you, like you're the problem. And it's not, I don't think that it's like, I hear this from other people who are immigrants and like when I explained to them that they're, they're struggling to get immigrants.
When I explain to them that they're struggling to get jobs, and I explain to them it's a really tough market for everyone right now. They're like, oh, I feel so much relief because I thought it was because of a bias. I don't know that that's always true. It's hard to know what is the reason that something's happening, right? You're not getting a job. What's the reason you're not getting a job? Maybe it's bias or it could be, you know, it's your resume or, you know, it's, you know, the really tough job, job market, or, you know, maybe it's, you know, it could be any number of variables. Right. And so I think exploring all of those and really being like thoughtful about how you're presenting yourself and working and working really hard. And that's the thing. It's hard for everyone to get a job right now.
Yeah. And I think, you know, we just got to give things the benefit of the doubt sometimes too. I, because when I say that sometimes your past experiences impact your future, you know, observations or your future expectations. I remember I was in Sydney back in Cape Britain in Nova Scotia. And at that time, like that was the truth because I knew the manager at the retail store. And I'm like, why is there not like a diverse representation at your stores and she's like I'm gonna be very honest when we get the resumes we look at the names and if it's a non-white name we do not consider it and I'm like oh I'm like and who has that who gave you that power it's like just because you know there's such a huge influx of immigrants we just wanted to make sure that our current population or the people who've lived like in this town for quite a long time they do not feel disassociated or you know they don't stop coming to our store so and when then these stories start getting passed along every even if you know I'm if I'm scanning through resumes I do not look at like I look at your experience I look at you know how connected you are how much you're trying you know if I get 100 resumes for one position and then there is this one person who's applied who's reached out to me in LinkedIn who's following up through their interview process of course like that that person's gonna remain in my mind so but like stories like this where you know there were some biases in the recruitment practices they did exist and then when other people hear it then they're like oh there is discrimination in the hiring practices or the recruitment process or you know they gave the name that oh that's a white organization just because we do not see any person of color working there so sometimes like it's it's also hard because I've I've personally seen that like you know like that that uh hiring manager was uh pretty open to me I'm like well like you know I'm not seen and what was funny I had a friend who had the same skin color but her name was like a white name like Amy or Anna and she got the interview and I'm like oh like you know so there was a point wherein they started joking around you gotta change your name to a more white name if you wanna get an interview like within the city so there there are things that happen like that for sure.
Yeah. And I can see like one story like that would, you know, would go far, you know, the story would, would go far. So people would hear about it. And I hope that that's not, I hope that that's kind of a one-off, but you know, you hope that people aren't judging people by their names and that, but we know that that's true we know that bias exists of course 100% yeah 100% and talking about biases like I was gonna segment into like you know again like I've been very lucky that I've had a great professional network I've got all these mentors but there were always uh, you know, there were times when you would second guess yourself. So like, you know, whether I belong here or not. And one of the instances was about the name, right?
Like I never, I don't think I'm ever going to change my name, even after my marriage. I love my first name. I love my last name. I love who I am. And I like, yeah, I like how my name is pronounced. Like I just love my identity and I love who I am and I like yeah I like how my name is pronounced like I just love my identity and I love my skin color I love everything about myself I'm not gonna change but then you know like in the past I think like it's it's important because we're talking about weirdos in the workplace right um there there have been situations wherein like you know I've I've been lucky that I've had an impetus to my professional or career growth as in you know I've did mentorship at TD got into like like transportation and leadership development I've I've been like really lucky that way but it comes with its own challenges. For instance, like I was working at an organization and, you know, they select a pool of employees like who've shown their skills or who are really good in terms like great education, great skills, great work.
And there's a specific, you you know leadership program for them so I think my name was taken out a day prior to that you know that training or that whole event and uh my managers like uh I've been here for you know 10 years and my name was never uh you know put into that program so and I had just been in that organization, maybe for two months, I hadn't even completed my probation. So, you know, you get that imposter syndrome, like, okay, like, what's wrong?
You know, I am young, but I am capable as well. And the fact that I've reached here is because I've got that in me but she's like well because I have not been a part of the program and you're fairly new to the country and to the organization I think you need to learn more so you know you face those challenges I think within the same organization, it was a team of, I would say, a different segment. I would say like much older or much mature professionals. I was the youngest in the team. And I was the only person of color in that team. And when I say that I don't want to change anything about myself that would also mean that I wouldn't want to change anything about my dietary preferences so I'm vegetarian and I love Indian food and I would bring lunch and Indian food has a certain smell so I could see people rolling their eyes and you know like those facial expressions like when you talk about how do we integrate that into our culture right like you can just see like people getting uncomfortable or like like you know and I'm like someone came up to me like I think I'm allergic to this smell and I heard that same person mentioning that how much they love butter chicken and they went to the Indian restaurant. And I'm like, how can you justify that?
And just because of that incident, Erin, I started using heavy cologne on myself, just making sure that I belong. And like, you know, no one gets uncomfortable because the, the food I bring smells. That's disappointing actually, that someone would, you know, this is where something like a sensitivity training would be appropriate because you need to know, you know, like what, how, how to be a person, like, it's really like, it's just how to, how to be like an emotionally intelligent, empathetic person, tolerant person, you know, you wouldn't ever do that to anyone else with any other food, would you? I mean, I don't know. It just seems it's exceptionally rude is what it is. But then, you know, you got out, like for me, I was like, you know, that moment I'm like, okay, I got into trouble even for wearing heavy cologne, of course, you know, sometimes you have the same environment.
So, you know, sometimes like just these small things, they deviate your mind from the regular tasks and responsibilities you're supposed to do just because your mind gets stuck in somewhere where it should not be right like you you just keep thinking about it and then you do not know what the right thing is do you approach HR do you like you don't want to be that bad person like and start an investigation specifically when you're new and you're still fostering those professional relationships with your team members but I think in those moments it's very important for you to take a stand for yourself I think I did not take a stand like you know I did not do anything immediately but after a week when it wasn't stopping I was like okay this needs to stop and I think I was very brave enough. I did go to whichever representative I had. And I'm like, I am being made feel this way.
And I think it's against your company's policies. And, you know, it's also a form of bullying because it does lead into all those sub-interactions. And here it's very important, Erin, that some of the employees do not even know what rights they have as a worker or an employee for an organization. During orientation, we tell them, these are the policies, these are the procedures. No one reads them. No one knows what to do. Like I'm a nature professional. I see people in orientation. They are just so excited to be a part of the organization that they do not go through or they do not know what employee rights they have. Yeah. You know, some people will watch us and they'll probably be thinking to themselves, well, you know, that person who complained about the smell, what if they have a sensory, you know, sensitivity or something like that, you know, but, you know, what we have to understand is, you know, for starters, we can't make everyone happy. You know, I don't think we can make everyone happy.
Tolerance is really important in the workplace. And there are different ways that you can go about problem solving, and that's not the way to do it. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, like, you know, not having any preconceived notions or prejudices in your mind. You know, I was hearing a podcast which said that, you know, being nice, kind and compassion is the new thing which the world needs to learn. Earlier, we used to be like, oh, every, you know, everyone is nice, kind and compassionate.
But these days, it's a thing which we need to start incorporating into our trainings or our culture I mean I always go by the quote I always tell it to my new hires or the people I meet like be a rainbow in someone else's cloud like it's Maya Angelou's quote and I'm like why would you want to do something like you know it's it's okay to do something when you know like when you see unconscious bias like you know every you say something to me and I'm like okay like you know it's not this it's this but you are willing to learn you're willing to be aware of that but it's not okay to do something or make someone feel a certain way when you know that, you know, it's not right. And you also know that the person does not have the power to, you know, say anything. Because that's usually the case, Erin.
Like, what gave me the motivation or what inspired me was, like, if it's being done to me, it's going to be done to many other jayas out there. There's not always going to be me. There is influx of people coming here and, you know, no one deserves to be, you know, made feel that way. Everyone needs to be felt that, yes, I deserve to belong here. Amazing. Thanks so much for joining me today, Jaya. You're very welcome, A Erin. It was a pleasure. Did you have any words of inspiration for anyone who's, you know, who's listening to the podcast or anything like just a little thing you want to leave them with? I would just say that, you know, it's, you know, put yourself in someone else's shoes. Put yourself in someone else's shoes when you are making any preconceived notions.
Just think from other person's perspective. And also, if you're trying to influx any DEIB initiatives into your strategies or workplace, don't stop. Keep going. is a right place don't stop like keep going if you receive a roadblock from one person always look outside the box that's what I do do not hinder yourself just because you received one no if there's like one no there could be four yeses so just think outside the box the world is a beautiful place people are willing to help you if you are you know willing to receive that help love and compassion from them
oh so good such good yes thanks so much yeah perfect
Thanks erin
Don't forget to stay weird stay wonderful and don't stay out of trouble!
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Kevin Judge is the CEO and Founder of iNOBL, a strategic business advisory firm with a global reach.
A best-selling author, international speaker, and strategic business advisor, Kevin leads a team of professionals that senior leaders trust, to turn strategy into sustainable success.
Join us for an insightful conversation on how to go from chaos to clarity, to best guide organizations to harness their potential, and excel beyond expectations!
Stay in Touch with Kevin:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinjudge/
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Script:
When you're in a moment, one, have that sense of curiosity for yourself, but also if there's somebody that is coachable around you to say, hey, hold on a second, I hear you, you're concerned about ABC. What would happen if you were to stop and think of this in this different way?
Mm-hmm. What other possibilities could there be? Welcome to Weirdos in the Workplace, the podcast that celebrates authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose in our world of work today.
My name is Erin Patchell, of course, your lovely host. And I'm here today with Kevin Judge. Say hello, Kevin. Hello, Kevin. No, hello, everybody. Nice to be here. It's great for you to be here, Kevin. Okay, so for those who don't know Kevin yet, Kevin is the CEO and founder of iKnowBull, a strategic business advisory firm with a global reach. Kevin leads a team of professionals that senior leaders can trust to turn strategy into sustainable success. He's also a best-selling author, international speaker, and strategic business advisor.
Welcome, welcome.
Thanks very much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.
All right. So what are we talking about today, Kevin? Just give me broad strokes.
Well, you know, one thing that's caught my attention recently was how crazy our brains are in making up stories about what's going on in our worlds, whether it be driving down the road and somebody cuts you off or the way a coworker responds to an email or the way your boss treats you. Like all of these things, our brains tell us stories and that can get us in a lot of trouble. So what is interesting for me right now is how can we have a little bit more of a view of curiosity to solve some of the problems that don't need to be problems in our lives?
And of course, if you want to tie that to strategy and execution, it's about getting away from conflict and better communication and that type of thing to help make the world go around a lot better. Yeah, that'd be nice. There are a few existential crises in the world at this time. So I think I use that word almost every single podcast right now is like existential crises. And it's not surprising that people are trying to find ways to both like predict, analyze, compartmentalize, and like, just, you know, try to like kind of survive through, you know, what's going on today at a micro and macro level.
So, you know, humans be humans, right? Well, exactly. And whatever's going on around us, like if you think, And whatever's going on around us, if you think, probably heard this example before where a caveman sees a saber-toothed tiger and they go into fight or flight mode and it's all about survival. Well, first of all, we wear more clothes nowadays, but also, well, many of us do. Some of us. Yes, right. But also, we don't have saber-toothed tigers coming at us. But on a day-to-day basis, our brains don't know the difference between the perceived physical threat of a saber-toothed tiger and a perceived psychological threat. So let me take it into a work environment.
You walk into a meeting room that you're expecting to have a meeting with your boss, and HR is there. Oh my gosh, Right. So perceived psychological threat of why is HR here? I'm going to get fired. And if I get fired, everybody's going to look at me and be ashamed of me. My family's going to leave me. I'm going to lose my house. I'm going to end up on the street and I'm going to starve to death and die. I'm going to end up on the street and I'm going to starve to death and die. Now, I know that sounds ridiculous, but that can be where our brain goes very, very quickly when it's not necessarily the fact. Right.
Well, I think you've given us an amazing intro to the topic. Let's come up for air. And I just want to ask you first, the first like real question, the most important question, what makes you a weirdo? What makes me a weirdo? When you asked me that the first time I was like, well, I don't know. Am I really that weird?
But I'm going to focus in on, it's taken a lot of work for me to not appear as weird as maybe as I, as I was many years let your freak flag fly that's there you go I have a very strong sense of right and wrong and in my younger years there was no gray area like it's either right or wrong the rules are rule you follow it or you don't follow it etc uh and that led to me having super high expectations for myself as well as super high expectations of other people. And I think in my terms, what makes me weird is I really struggled to understand, well, how is it that people are not as serious about these things as I am?
And how can they be comfortable with the lack of performance and, and just getting by and not really caring, et cetera. And so it took a lot of work for me to understand people and how they, how they actually think and process and that not everybody's like me. And thank God they're great. Like the last thing that people need is another me uh and thank god very great like the last thing people need is another me like we we need everybody to be who they are i mean not to like go down a huge rabbit hole here but i'm very i'm kind of curious like if you've ever detangled like why you were so motivated like what was it in your dna or in your upbringing or whatever that like drove you in that way that that is interesting that could be an interesting conversation yes yes uh should we get the virtual couch out no it's not my not my thing but yeah um you know what i'm not 100 sure because when i when i look at i have two brothers and i look at them and we're fairly different uh than than each other um but also similar in some ways but my father was in the military my mom was a nurse there was a strict household um but i i think some of it's just maybe it's because i was born in january right? Like I, I, there's a thing, that's a thing, you know? Well, yeah. Right.
So I really don't know other than our behavior as we learn behavior, we are either rewarded for it or not. And perhaps how I behaved in the decisions that I made. I had rewards for it either intrinsically or extrinsically was rewarded for those behaviors. And that worked until it didn't work, right?
Once I got into my career, that rigidity wasn't helpful all the time. Yeah, no, for sure. Especially in the world today when things are, you know, you need to be more agile and adaptable in a lot of ways. I can see how you would have had to learn that probably. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's for many people, that's not something that comes easily. No, no. For most people that doesn't come easily. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, interesting.
Okay. So maybe, maybe another rabbit hole for another day to go all the way down. Yeah. But you're a strategist at heart. Okay, so you and I, we're both strategists. We kind of work in different areas. We're not like conflicting at all or competing, really. We work with different kinds of clients. But we're both, you know, more on the strategy side, strategy execution. I also do some coaching. Do you do coaching as well? Are you a coach? Yes. I don't do a lot of the coaching myself anymore, but I do coaching usually with executive CEOs. Right. Okay. So you do a little bit of coaching as well or have done coaching as well. Yeah. So the world's basically like it's on fire on fire, you know, and everyone's terrified. Business leaders are terrified. Doesn't matter, you know, small business, medium sized business, large enterprise government, you know, nobody knows what's going to happen next.
There are lots of different mega threats, you know, in the world. mega threats you know in the world yep um what are you seeing like just like on a what what are you sensing right now in the world like what are you sensing as like some of the biggest things that people are concerned with day to day that is affecting their behavior i think um and and that's a very broad question. So I'm going to give you a very broad answer.
I think one of the biggest questions that people have today is anything that's happening, anything that they read in the news, anything that they see happen on the street, et cetera, is how does this impact me and my future and my ability to be successful in whatever it is that I'm doing, right? To thrive in this ecosystem that we're in. And it sounds like a very selfish question, but it really, I don't think is, right? We're no good to anybody else unless we are strong ourselves.
And then once we're taken care of, it's easy to help the rest of the people around us in the world, et cetera. So I think that's the big thing for people is, hey, how are things going to help? So let's take Canadian politics right now. I'm coaching a CEO right now around the strategy for his organization, and he requires some funding through government grants. Okay, great. But what is going to be happening in our political environment come September?
Is the opposition going to say, hey, we want a non-confidence vote? Yeah. And that's going to destroy the current government and all funding is going to come to a screeching halt or do we have another year year and a half etc right so those sorts of things are a concern um even what's happening in the u.s for for their politics it's a concern for canadians uh and people in the U.S. alike. So I think for most people, it's like, how are these things going to impact us? And it can be the smallest little thing that puts people into turmoil.
How do you see this sphere reflected within organizational behavior? Prime example, and this one's really, really fresh. CEO just let go two of his employees, small organization. Yeah. For various reasons, right? And the story start. Well, why were those people let go? And of course, the CEO can't be very specific on what those reasons are, because you have to value the privacy of those individuals. So there's a generic answer as to why. But people start making up stories. Right. Is it because employee A was no good, they were stealing, or is it because there isn't enough money in the company and we're going to go bankrupt?
All sorts of things come out. And so people see this information and start processing, okay, well, how does this impact me? Is there longevity in my career in this company? Should I start looking for work? Or, hey, I'm a survivor. I didn't get canned, but now I've got all this extra work. Or am I going to have all this extra work that I have to do to make up for the people that have left? Right. And when they don't have the answers to those questions, they make up answers to those questions. And I tell you, our brains are masterful storytellers.
Our brains, unfortunately, focus in on fictional horror instead of, hey, everything's going to be great. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, that's true. And it seems like in times of stress, you know, that becomes even more true that we fixate on, you know, trying to create certainty out of uncertainty, whether or not it's actually real. It's like a mass there's things we cannot control and we try to control. We spend a lot of energy on that instead of what we should be doing, right? We should be focusing on as an individual, what can I control? Focus on that.
And from that organizational perspective, get the work done that you need to get done to continue to perform well, to help the organization advance, to maintain the view that people have on your value to the organization, right? If you start spiraling out of control and become cynical and stop performing because you're just giving up, et cetera, it's almost a self-fulfilling prophecy, right?
You kind of end up putting yourself out of work. Yeah. It strikes me that you're kind of the perfect person to help in this scenario someone who you know came from was probably very it was certainly probably still you're still very um disciplined but there's a difference between discipline and rigidity you know yeah um so but someone who was like very disciplined and maybe a you know verging on having too much routine perhaps once upon a time to having to learn how to adapt, being potentially a very good person to lean on in times like this when people have to learn how to adapt.
Yeah. Well, thank you for saying that I seem to be a good person for that. So I'll agree with you. Please do. It's also not only for the individual who's impacted, but also for leaders of organizations. Right. So earlier I said when people don't have the answers, they make up their own answers. Well, the answers need to be shared by leaders across the organization. the organization. So what is it that a leader can do to communicate, hey, there is a future and this is how bright it looks and you're part of that.
Or, hey, the future is uncertain. I'll be honest. But I really value you. That's why you're still here. And I need your help to figure out what it's going to look like. And let's make this work. Let's rally together to survive this. Right. So whether it's good news or bad news, those leaders really need to communicate with conviction and belief in that future and the people that report into them. Yeah. So we're kind of we're edging towards we're kind of like on the edge of the curiosity cure now, right? Yeah, yeah. We're starting to edge towards that.
And it's interesting, because, you know, what you're talking about that balance between like reality and faith, essentially, is what we're talking about, you know, a belief that we're going to get through this, if we can do together and we're going to be honest and blah, blah, blah, right? All the way through. It's like, you know, you want to be honest, but can leaders really be honest?
You know, like how much honesty and transparency do you usually recommend? As much as possible. Yeah. Without sacrificing confidentiality. without sacrificing confidentiality. Okay, perfect. So there are times where a leader will be asked questions.
They may know the answer, but can't share it. And instead of saying, oh, I don't know, perhaps they should say something like, you know what, that isn't an area that I'm able to speak about now, but as soon as I can, I will share that information with you. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, you want to have, they want you to, they want to know, people want to know that you do know the answer, right? Not that you don't know the answer. That's terrifying, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We want to know that we're, we want to be confident that our leaders know that the answer is, and it's okay. Maybe if, if it's a need to know that we're going to want to be confident that our leaders know that the answer is and it's okay maybe if if it's a need to know at this point right yeah but the curiosity cures the same you know how much like where's the balance right between the hallucination and the reality when it comes to like you know we're leading with curiosity, how, how far into curiosity do you go?
This is a question that I ask myself a lot because I have ADHD and I have a lot of things that I'm curious about. I need some restraint, you know? I am, I'm curious. Okay. Let's, let's back up for a second. Talk about the curiosity curve. So people know what the heck we're talking about. Okay. Yes. Because we've said curiosity cure a few times a couple times yeah right so that that really is about pausing in the moment and asking yourself what you know this something happened and this is why i think it is pausing in the moment and thinking is there an alternate reason why this has happened is there an alternate potential outcome um one one thing i like to do so let's take the example of um uh you're driving down the road and somebody all of a sudden cuts you off right and many people have a negative reaction to that right right?
Once they get over the adrenaline rush of swerving out of the way or the near miss. And there are reactions typically are not all that friendly, whether it was yelling or gestures or speeding and catching up to the person at the next light, getting out of your car and hitting their window, like all that road rage stuff. Right.
So let's stay away from that. Um, but asking yourself in the moment, what if that person that cut me off actually had positive intent? Right. What could have possibly happened that they would cut me off with positive intent right yeah so you know maybe they were avoiding a squirrel which you know okay but or maybe they were avoiding a child or their steering wheel stopped working i don't know right there's yeah sure so many potential opportunities or maybe it was just a dumb accident that they, they just cut you off and they didn't do it intentionally. Like I know I've cut, I've cut people off by accident without thinking about it. So right. We got to give people a break. Totally. Like I spent like my twenties, I was a little angry and most of my teens actually. Like I spent like my twenties, I was a little angry and most of my teens actually. Yeah. Most of us are at that age. Pretty angry. I was angry, angry at the world, you know?
Um, and I, I think I remember like specific moments in my life where it was like all of a sudden the light turned on. It was like, I don't have to live this way. It's only affecting, it's only, the only person that it's impacting in a, in a negative way is me, you know, and I have a choice that I can decide to look at things like you can decide, you know, to look at things through that negative lens, or you can decide to look at things through sort of some rose colored glasses, if you will, you know, my company name is literally positivist group. So, you know, the being positive, it's actually not, it's the name that came from something else. But okay, the fact that it's named positivist, there's layers here, right? The it, you know, it makes me want to commit to constantly looking at things and giving people grace and make and not making assumptions right yeah you know that's funny because both of our company names have a sense of that so i often get asked well what is i noble like where'd you come up with that name?
That's a play on two meanings of noble. So noble being how can we do the right thing for people? Of course. And then the other part is noble as in no BS. Oh, okay. So there you go. So both of us, our companies, are really about trying to think of things from that positive perspective yes looking at the world not making it not assuming ill intent but assuming you know either neutral or positive intent right yeah yeah and when we were talking we when we had our like pre, you know, podcast conversation, it just struck me how impactful that mindset is. You know, the folks who I think really try, because it's hard, right? It's hard to maintain that mindset. But there's such a trickle down effect that it just like instantly shot into my brain. Like it affects literally everything in your organization. If you take that approach.
Absolutely. Right. It, it impacts, uh, well, I'll step back for a quick second and just say, it is natural for us to have negative thoughts that come into our head right away. So, you know, if you were late for this call, my mind might have immediately said, oh, you know, it's not going to happen. She doesn't like me. She doesn't care, et cetera. And that's natural. That's where our brains go. Yeah. What we need to do is step it up a little bit as individuals and say, okay, I've had those thoughts. Let's push that aside. Yes.
And start thinking about what could possibly happen, right? Maybe you're Zoom updated or Windows crashed across North America, right? Right? Like that just happened. Yeah. So that's all we have to do is push those things aside for a moment and start to think about what are some of those alternatives. When we can do that, we increase the trust that we have with other individuals that we work with. We increase the quality of communication by simply asking questions of people. And that's where that curiosity cure comes in is asking questions of people. So, Hey, I'm making this up, but Hey, you were, you were, you were late for our call today. That's not like you. What, what's going on. Right.
And then I about ABC and it's like, Oh, okay. But so it's, it's really about trying to shift that mindset and escaping the tragedy that our brain can easily, easily create. Yeah. I think just making sure that you're not impressing your own worldview on everything, like not that, you know, like how am I going to describe this, but just walking through the world with a sense that, you know, just what's coming into our minds isn't necessarily the truth. Right. So just trying to find, it's like the search for truth, essentially, you know, what is the truth? It's not my truth. It's not your truth. It's, you know, something in between the truth literally exists something in between everything. Right right and what that is it like exists in the gaps really yeah yeah exactly yeah and we want to make sure that we don't become the driver of what i call the bitter bus right oh yeah right that's you know i'm upset i'm cynical i don't believe in my co-workers my, everybody's out to get me. And, you know, it's too bad if an individual thinks that. But what they typically end up doing is start talking more, wasting lots of time and resources and energy.
So, I mean, I guess that begs the question, when does our optimistic, positive mindset turn into toxic positivity? Because we hear about that word a lot. It's just a buzzword. It's not like a, you know, a professional term or anything. Um, but what do you, what do you think about that? Do you think toxic positivity exists? We'll start there. Well, okay. So sure, sure it does. But is it prevalent? I don't know. I don't think so. To me, some visuals come to mind. When you talk about toxic positivity, I think of a doormat that everybody wipes their feet on or a big heavy wet blanket or somebody that's always saying yes to everything, even if they don't believe in it. So I don't think there's all that many people like that out there, but sure, there are some. Somebody can identify someone like that. But yeah. The way that I've heard it used is almost like an abusive term where it's it's more correlated almost with like gaslighting, if you know what I mean, where the leadership is like, no, fine. Like, you know, just be positive. Keep, you know, doing those 500 phone calls a day. And, you know, it's it.
Or are they hiding something from the front line? In both instances, you break that trust, which isn't a great thing for the organization, right? So, and I acknowledge there's things that the leadership team can't tell employees because they might be worried there'd be a mass exodus if they say some things, right? But yeah, there's an interesting stat that I saw recently that said the number of, what was it, the percentage of problems that a CEO or executive team knows about in an organization is something like 5%. The next level down, so mid-level managers know about 25% of the problems that are happening in an organization. The front line knows about 78% of the problems going on in an organization. So we need to make sure that we're listening all the way up and down and across the organization. Otherwise there's things that people just won't know. down and across the organization.
Otherwise there's things that people just won't know. Yeah. And okay. So obviously the way that you help your clients execute on strategy, that would be one of your recommendations, I assume is listening like the Gamble Walk kind of, you know? Yeah. Yeah. So there's, there's really three core areas that I find, three intersecting ideas for an organization to have the momentum they need to be able to have sustainable results. And that's focusing in on both talent and execution and alignment in the organization. So for the talent, it's about having the right people, about developing those skills. It's about the culture of the organization, those sorts of things. On the same wavelength as to what our priorities, where are we going with that. Right. And we know in like practice, it doesn't like we, it sounds very neat and compartmentalized, but it kind of like, it's kind of like test, learn, test, learn, test, learn, test, learn.
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Is there such thing as like, the more information you have as a leader, the more difficult it becomes to make decisions a lot of the time, because there's more complexity in the decision making. And obviously, there's like a balance between, you know, we want and we need information to make good decisions, but is there such thing as too much information? Do you see people freeze? Yes, me. I'm a prime example of it. So I did an assessment recently, and I forget what assessment it is, but one of the characteristics is, are you a fact finder or not a fact finder? So there's some people that will make split second decisions based on just a gut feel. And there's other people that want to find out all the facts about it. This is something I have to personally manage is how much data do I need before I just make a decision. And so that's a challenge that a lot of leaders have is being able to make the decisions based on both intuition and analytics and finding that balance. And is that something that you typically coach people through? Is that like a coachable moment?
Yeah, it absolutely is a coachable moment, right? And especially as you move up in an organization, you're going to know less and less and less about the detail information and you need to rely on the people around you who should be smarter than you to be able to help you make that decision, right? So a lot of leaders make the mistake of trying to make decisions in isolation. They need to communicate with their teams yeah so leaders don't be alone is the message if you're that might be problematic don't be alone it's lonely yeah yeah well a lot of leaders are lonely it's always here right well absolutely right and think yeah think of the person at the top, the CEO, as one of the loneliest places to be in an organization. Yeah. And we know that, I think we've seen that CEOs or leaders who try to be friends with all their employees, it doesn't always go so well either. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've said this to many aspiring managers who have been moving from a team member are now all of a sudden supervising or managing their team. And like, it's not the same relationship.
It cannot be the same relationship you had before. You can still be friendly, but you're no longer best buddies at work because you're not the boss. at work because you're not the boss. Well, and, and, you know, you, you, there's a real temptation. I remember I succumbed to this early, early on when I first became a manager and it wasn't anything that was critical, but it didn't, it only took me a few minutes to realize, oh, I probably shouldn't have told that person that thing that I told them because they're my friend. You know, I've got another level of responsibility now that, you know, I need to keep things to myself. Like I need to figure out how to do that, you know, do that better. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to age myself here, but it's like the, uh, uh, the amazingly, I know the date, the 1984 Fabergé shampoo commercial, which was, hey, I love the shampoo. And I told a friend who told two friends who then told two friends who told two friends. Exactly. Right.
So you've just told your friends something and they're going to tell their buddy something in confidence. And actually, that can be a very useful tactic if you're looking to promote information somehow. Yeah. Or shampoo, right? Or shampoo. That's exactly it. Awesome. So what's next for you, Kevin Judge? What's next for me? Well, I'm, in terms of what I'm doing, I'm taking a little bit of time off for July. I'm going to try and slow down a little bit and take care of myself physically and mentally. But then big plans on the business side of things as I'm continuing to ramp up, speaking with organizations, going in and chatting with them specifically around, hey, what do you need to do in the last 90 days of the year to actually get those results that you, that you want to have. So looking forward to doing a number of executive power hours is what I love. Okay. So a little motivation, education, little discipline from Kevin judge. It sounds good. Yeah. Yeah. Helping them to be as successful as they can be. And is there a specific message that you like to share or is it all individualized depending on the business?
It's very tailored to individuals and to the company itself and what they're doing on. But I guess if I were to summarize it, it's about really be clear on what is it that your organization needs to do to achieve that success? What are those priorities? And then aligning both your people and money and equipment resources against those priorities and communicating. And that kind of comes down to the whole topic that we've had today. It's about communicating effectively with people. So everybody's on the same page and they're not making up stories in their head and going down the wrong path. Yeah.
Going down those rabbit holes, Alice's rabbit hole. One final question. How do we save the world just kidding can you imagine yeah right no but seriously like how do we get more people thinking about curiosity because i do think that's what um is is i don't know if we can save the world but you know what i mean like yeah get more people thinking about things yeah i you know what it it it i think the easiest thing that you can do that i can do that every individual listening to this podcast can do is just when you're in a moment can do is just when you're in a moment, one, have that sense of curiosity for yourself. But also, if there's somebody that is coachable around you to say, hey, hold on a second, I hear you, you're concerned about ABC. What would happen if you were to stop and think of this in this different way? What other possibilities could there be? Right.
So just to take a moment to coach somebody along to help them with it. Right. So I think that's probably the best, the best way that we could do that. Get people to start thinking differently. Excellent. Excellent advice.
Thank you very much. You're welcome.
Thanks very much for having me.
Yeah, it's my pleasure.
Don't forget to stay weird, stay wonderful, and don't stay out of trouble.
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“You don’t need to be healthy to be worthy human being”
Fierce, hilariously honest, and an A-list advocate, Vinny Welsby is a fat activist and diversity, equity and inclusion leader. They are a world-leading expert on dismantling anti-fat bias and diet culture, a TEDx speaker, podcast host and best-selling author.
Vinny is trans-non-binary and is dedicated to shifting how society views fat and queer bodies through education and compassion.
Stay in touch with Vinny:
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Script:
My first real job, the head boss called me Miss Piggy behind my back and to everyone for two years. I only learned of it after I left and a colleague finally came clean.
Almost daily during lunch, there was talk of eating, quote, healthy and statements that made me feel paranoid about what I ate in public.
There were definitely jokes made by my boss about fat people. were definitely jokes made by my boss about fat people one of the most memorable ones for me experiences was the time i cheered during a meeting and my boss responded with hey you burned a calorie no Welcome to Weirdos in the Workplace, the podcast that celebrates authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose in our world of work today.
And you know me, I'm your host, Erin Patchell. And today I'm here with Vinny Welsby. Welcome, Vinny.
Hello, hello, Erin. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to talk about fat stuff with you today. I am so excited to talk about fat stuff because, you know, very near and dear to my heart, literally and figuratively.
Yeah. Vinny is a fat activist, in case you didn't notice and a diversity equity and inclusion leader they are a world-leading expert on dismantling anti-fat bias in diet culture a TEDx speaker and I watched it it's fabulous podcast host and best-selling author then he is trans non-binary and is dedicated to shifting how society views fat and queer bodies through education and compassion i already love you so there you go thank you oh my gosh where do we even start um i was listening to your tedx and there was one moment i mean there's a few moments that stood out for sure and a surprise towards the end for anyone who's going to watch. I won't say anything more about that. I'll just leave the intrigue right there. But when you said you don't need to be healthy to be a worthy human being, that literally just brought so many tears to my eyes because it transcends everything it's not about being fat right it's about being a person and all the work that we've been doing lately at positivist group and at the train to help project um maybe we'll talk about that at some point i think people who've been listening kind of know a bit about it but um i i just want to just kind of lay that out because um you can be healthy and fat right but you don't have to be healthy what what are we what are we even talking about why are we bringing this you know why is this even a conversation in in this day and age so i just wanted to say when you shared that I it really really struck home with me yeah because I think like that that line of it's kind of the I don't want the right word for but that zinger or the like the full stop because um people like to say it's not okay to say it's okay to say that it's okay to be fat uh because uh fat people some fat people are unhealthy and some people will say all fat people are unhealthy well it that doesn't matter even if every single fat person is super super unhealthy it doesn't mean that they're a less worthy person and so where people go from there that's kind of like well okay well what can I say to that there's not that much you can say to that really apart from okay yeah you know but some people will say no if you are unhealthy then you're a terrible person or whatever but uh that's their stuff oh yeah I don't know let's let's back up a little bit because I feel like we're going I just I brought it really deep really fast so let's come for air um tell me about how in the world this became your focus uh yeah so it is out of out of necessity out of selfish desire of of uh needing this in my life most of my life
i thought that fatness was uh the worst thing that i could be um and i would do everything i could to not be fat i thought that becoming smaller would change my life would make me more confident would make me more lovable would make me uh you know money rain down from the sky and have hunky celebrities calling me up asking for a date and um when i did temporarily become thin and it's most people's stories that they temporarily lose weight because diets don't work for the vast majority of people when i did temporarily become thin none of those things happened uh yes I experienced more privilege because I had a smaller body however the way that I viewed myself um wasn't changed and my abilities to do the things I wanted in life didn't change um and it was really really painful for me as it is for many people and then one day after many years of dealing with this stuff i saw a message on the internet this is about 10 years ago that said it's okay to be fat and i was like get the fuck out of here what do you what do you mean it's okay to be fat um this was so revolutionary for me i had never considered um that this was an option and i continued reading it was reagan chastain's blog dances with fat i remember exactly where i was sat in my bed with my then boyfriend who had told me that he was less attracted to me because i had a slightly bigger body um and turning around to telling him like did you know this did you know that fat people could be healthy and did you know that uh that you can accept yourself the way that you are and that fat people deserve like dignity and respect? And, you know, it was life changing.
From that moment onwards, everything shifted. And it's been my mission and it's been my life's calling since then to share that same message that you're worthy. You always were. You always will be. Having a bigger body does not mean that you're worthy you always were you always will be having a bigger body does not mean that you're less worthy wow oh I wish that I could internalize that message you know it's going to be a struggle for me to get through this conversation without crying I'm just going to let everyone out there know because like I've been a fat girl my entire life yeah I've been a fat girl and everything that comes along with that you know all of the social rejection that comes along with that like you can tell it's very hard for me to say this and you know it is it is so painful for so many people because we've been told what fatness means is abhorrent is disgusting is a failure and how is that not so painful it is it really is especially imagine being a child oh i'm sure that you know how this feels right yes oh it's just life fucking up stuff these these and all that is is anti-fat bias because those things aren't true it's not true that you're uh you know this terrible human or i am or anyone else who has a bigger body or anyone who has a body that's outside social norms it's just not true it's an opinion it's a dominant opinion um and the moment that we can start unlearning that bias that we have internalized we can be free and that freedom from anti-fat bias oh oh my goodness it's so fucking good honestly i gotta say it's it's really good it's so nice it. It's interesting because, like, you know, I watch you. You know, like, I watch you and I've seen your TED.
And, you know, I've been kind of following some of your social media stuff. And you do seem so free. And I feel like people think that I feel that way. You know? Like, I will go to the beach. Like we went skinny dipping at a resort, you know? Like, you know what I mean? Like there's like these things, like I'll do them and I will be unapologetic about it. But it doesn't mean that I act free, but I don't feel free. How do we go from, I mean, a lot of people don't even act free, you know, it's like fake it till you make it. I'm in that phase, I think. Yeah. What do you think that people around you are thinking when they see you skinny dimping or at the beach or whatever? Like, are you thinking about what they're thinking? I hope that they think that I don't care you know I hope that they think that like there is a person who is having fun you know and being herself and that's what I want that's what I believe that they are seeing um so it's not them it's not me thinking it's them it's really me like yeah so what's your brain saying then um in the in that moment I don't care you know it's in the other moments that um when I'm in the change room and something doesn't look the mirror is like you know it's like whoa that looks really bad or you know when you look at all the cute things that you would want to wear if I look at my daughters who are literally perfect um in the stereotypical sense of the word you know and you're just like thank god that they're perfect you know it's so much easier for them yeah yeah so you're it's that internalized like uh you saying oh I don't look right and my body's wrong or whatever it is that's coming up. But you're you're hoping that people outside are are saying good for her. You go you go and do your swim thing. And so it's.
Yeah, I have I have very optimistic ideas of what people think. Yeah. I live in a little optimism bubble. But you know what? I don't think that's a bad thing. No, no, I think so. So when I'm talking to people doing like one-on-one stuff, I'll ask them like these questions I was asking you because, because, because a lot of times people, it'll be people have different stages of, of, of unlearning anti-fat bias. A lot of times people will say, people are looking at me and saying that i'm disgusting and um then when you when you've worked on anti-fat bias stuff that will start to fade away and you'll have a more generous view of how people might be looking at you because you're also looking at other people with a generous lens when you're really really deep stuck in anti-fat bias you're thinking about other people being like, oh, gross that they are unattractive. And you're looking at yourself.
Oh, gross. I'm unattractive. Once you start unlearning anti-fat bias, you begin by looking at other people with love and compassion. And then the next stage is looking at yourself. So from what you've told me, it sounds like you've already done a lot of work on this stuff and you're taking action. So if anyone listening is kind of in a similar position or if they're thinking other things about other people, wherever you're at, it tells me that you've done so much. And also there is the possibility for that shift so that you can take that compassion you're giving to others and give it to yourself in those moments of like what in the changing room what would if i was stood next to you and i and you said oh i don't look good like what would i be saying i'm like what the heck you know i mean sometimes it's valid sometimes it's like oh you know what maybe that's not the right fit or whatever it is like color yeah yeah yeah yeah maybe that's not the right style for you like I think there's some validity to it do you think I would say you if you said oh I don't look good I'd say yeah that's valid I mean I hope if it were true you would say that I don't know because I wouldn't look at I wouldn't look at someone's body and say, oh, that's not right, or you don't look good. Like, it just wouldn't come. I couldn't, in my brain, I couldn't see it. So anyway, anyway. But this happens at work, and that's the thing. It's like, I strongly believe, and I have heard this story from other people just before you and I started chatting this story from other people just before you and I started chatting.
I had a friend text me. I'm like, oh, you wouldn't believe, you know, what I'm doing next, like podcast with you. And we, you know, a lot of, it's funny how people who are overweight often attract other people who are overweight. And a lot of my friends are a little bit overweight, a little bit fat. And they're okay. You know, we're solid, like we are like confident fat ladies, and that's fine. But they were saying that they had a wicked story about a boss, they had lost 50 pounds in the workplace. And it was like wild, you know, how, how differently they were treated all of a sudden. It was very obvious. This is a real, this is actually, I think, a huge problem in the workplace. And I strongly believe that I was, I've been held back because of my weight, you know, and that's a problem because I'm smart. Like, you know, like everything else aside, the way I look aside, like I'm a hard worker and I'm smart and worker and I'm smart and diligent and I give a shit. And I think those qualities should far overweigh what I weigh, you know?
Exactly. And I feel like a lot of people in bigger bodies, they're actually harder workers than people in smaller bodies because they have to prove themselves. So they're just working their fingers to the bone and being perceived as lazy because they have a bigger body which is which is really unfair and what's really driven this home for me is recently i have i've just completed it and i can send you a link to it um is a fat at work report did i tell you about this before oh no remind me yeah it's so i've done a survey with 336 people asking them about their experiences at work and these are all people in bigger bodies um and i've done an analysis and report from that survey and the the stuff that the stories that people have shared are horrific heartbreaking unbelievable when i say unbelievable 100 believable but still you're thinking how do people like this exist in the workplace it's so cruel right um so what we learned from this this report was that um the percentage of fat people that have um said that they've experienced anti-fat bias in the workplace is 95.65 percent oh wow yeah now that is gargantuan. It's just every fat person has had shit experiences in the workplace.
And then if we put on top of that the marginalized identities, people who are over the age of 50, people who are racialized, people who are disabled and have a lower economic status they are all experiencing this anti-fat bias more more in their life and had have had feel like they've had a greater impact on their career so um this is this anti-fat bias in the workplace a lot of people say does it exist is this a thing not only does it exist but it's a huge thing it's a massive problem and no one's talking about it which is not literally no one's talking about it when I saw what you do I was like oh my gosh yes like we talk about diversity equity inclusion and accessibility and i think people with disabilities also it's not talked about enough so we're talking about that more as well but this is literally never talked about and first person i've ever heard talk about i know isn't it weird and the thing is fat people are the largest marginalized uh group in most societies so it's you know the statistics something like 68 percent of women are plus size so if we're thinking 68 percent of the workforce depending on the company um 68 percent of those people have experienced uh almost all of them have experienced anti-fat bias in the workplace and not just like a little bit these stories are egregious really really not cool wow yeah so what do you do i know that you're working hard obviously you're trying to enlighten people get the word out you know you're you're you're like becoming an influencer you are an influencer but i can see that you're like, you've, you're on a mission. Oh my goodness. Yeah. What do we do? What do we do? It's hard. It's really hard. You know? I don't know. What do we do? Go and have a nap or something. Watch some Netflix. Relax. But actually I ask people like, what, what do they need? What makes, what would make things easier?
like what's the most essential things it's really really sad but this most like the beginning stuff is uh really basic human uh necessities like having access to a washroom that they can use um having a place to sit having um if they wear uniform clothes to wear so that's the first thing really basic really like basic stuff and so you know how have we not already got the these basics covered but that's the first thing is making sure that we've provided basic amenities if we're in the workplace um the next thing that we need to do is we need to gather data because um almost every single um workplace that asks demographic data will not ask about people's body size they have no clue how many fat employees they have unless it's for wellness initiatives or or for the insurance and then they're not using it as a demographic for for diversity reasons um and they don't know what the fat people's experiences are um and so we need to be asking this this question like what's your body size and if you feel comfortable sharing and how, how's your experience in the workplace?
So once we've got that data, then we can provide training and start shifting attitudes. Um, and what I do is I start with the DEI team or company leaders because so often a lot of, uh, shit is coming from people's bosses um is uh let me do you want me to tell you some of these stories from like people's bosses yeah okay let me let me let me go let me go to the bosses section because i've so with the stories i've kind of um put them into different categories um so many bosses saying like terrible shit so uh an office manager once said to my face that she would rather die than be fat one of the most memorable ones for me experiences was the time i cheered during a meeting and my boss responded with hey you burned a calorie no um i once worked for a men's health organization and i was told i needed to be smaller from the executive director to reflect men's health i am a woman it made me feel terrible most of the discomfort i experienced at work was pressure to diet and to keep weight off almost daily during lunch there was talk of eating quote healthy and statements that made me feel paranoid about what i ate in public there were definitely jokes made by my boss about fat people um this one person my first real job the head boss called me miss piggy behind my back and to everyone for two years i only learned of it after i left and a colleague finally came clean um yeah so the stories go on and on and on uh about you know food shaming and commenting on people's bodies and on an employee's bodies it's just fucked up it is it's totally fucked up um what do you think people are specifically afraid of like these bosses in particular like what is it that they're so afraid of fat bodies um i think it comes down to, are they a lovable, worthy, worthy human? Because if they're not maintaining a smaller body, then they are out of control and they are bad and they are not lovable.
They are, they are to be rejected from society. Because of all of this anti-fat bias we've internalized we see fatness as this almost death sentence so why wouldn't they be terrified of being fat or becoming bigger it makes total sense and because everyone else not everyone but most people also have that same fear of being fat or being fatter, that we all bond on this communal shame of, oh, I'm being naughty. I shouldn't eat this like sliver of cake. And, oh, I had a bad weekend eating this or I should really lose weight or whatever. That really is for many people very bonding because we all have those same fears so yeah it's a very very normal part of our culture as we all know and what can we if you're a leader if you're a leader listening to this you know and you want to be more inclusive um so Vinny what would you say to the leaders listening to this who do want to be more inclusive?
How do they like notice those moments and change the script? Yeah, it's hard because so many people, it's so normalized in workplaces, right? So this really is about a culture shift within organizations. So we spoke about those like those basic things like basic amenities um asking questions and training but the um the big thing is is making a culture shift and how we do that is complicated but putting in um policies to protect people with with bigger bodies um so within your hr um within your dei policies mentioning that size is a protected class um size is a protected class in a number of locations in the us um it will be coming to a city a state a province near you this is going to happen so you you should get on the the front end of this making so making in your statement your diversity statement we protect people um due to their size and so you would say height and weight um realizing that i don't think we have done that on a positive histogram so i'm just gonna go because you don't you don't think about it yeah no you don't think about it um you could also just say uh due to uh the way that your body looks when someone's body looked if you don't want to mention height or weight um we also want to make in uh the same way that we have policies protecting those protected groups like what would you do if your colleague came in and started saying oh i hate i hate people with adhd i'm someone with adhd oh people are adhd blah blah whatever they were saying ableist stuff there would be a plan that hr has in place to deal with that type of behavior is if someone's being a bigot in the office yeah we don't just let it fly well i said we don't let it fly a lot of places do um and so we don't let anti-fat bias fly we don't let diet talk fly um that's not who we are as an organization culturally that's not our values we're an inclusive organization if that's who you are so um that has to be a learning process people overnight are not going to understand if you just say hey everyone we're changing the rules you're not allowed to talk about um diets and and hating your body people are going to be like what the fuck um this is really strange and why not and also we don't and um they won't know that the stuff that they're saying is really harmful and based in bias. So there needs to be education.
So I wish that there was a simple kind of, oh, just do this, like put something at the bottom of your email signature or something. But it's a cultural shift and changing norms in the in the organization right but it can start with the particular leader so like as an individual you have the autonomy to change the way that you do things yeah yeah for any person yeah call something out or call something in however we're saying that yeah yeah yeah yeah so you could be saying like hey by the way uh in our team we have a uh no body talk um policy and uh talking to you know if someone says something like hey by the way we don't talk about bodies in that way la la la um so you could definitely within your team have that but unfortunately you wouldn't be theoretically backed up by policy within the organization unless that's changed right it would be a microculture that yeah yeah yeah yeah that's what i would do like if i if uh if i had a team a team and i worked in an organization and someone started talking about this stuff i would take them aside and very gently call them in um yeah and um and then influence upward i suppose you know yes it's not already company policy yeah that's what exactly what happens is when i go into organizations um it's because a fat person has influenced upwards and said we need this now right and it's happened because the straight size people in the organization will say it's not a big deal. And the fat, the fat leader will say it is a big deal.
I know because I've lived it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that doesn't necessarily change how we perceive ourselves, but it helps, you know, so it doesn't absolve us as a like if you're a fat person like I am, you know, out know out there you know it doesn't absolve us for doing that work ourselves either because i don't know if you recognize that quote i think i sent you an email with a little quote in it it's from the dao of steve and they're talking about like how he won't date thin people or something yeah i looked it up i hadn't recognized that i looked it up and i was like what is this what is going on i love that movie and he says um i'm the worst kind of fattest i'm a fat fattest and i always feel that way too sometimes i'm like so it certainly doesn't absolve me from um the work that i need to do to detangle my own biases yeah yeah because we will we will cause harm we'll always no matter what we'll always call cause harm and so um it's a lot easier to advocate for this work and do this work um in organizations if you deeply believe that all fat people including yourself deserve um everything in the world and are wonderful humans. And, you know, you've got rid of that bias. It's harder to advocate when you're agreeing with the oppressor and you're like, oh, I'm kind of disgusting. So it just makes things easier if you think that you're right in some ways. Yeah, absolutely. Yes.
And I think people should feel confident to just live their lives without judgment you know and be able to do what they want to do and be who they want to be i mean you know i think that would be a beautiful world to live in oh wouldn't it oh and i i know when i was in really in in anti in diet culture and anti-fatness i couldn't imagine that that being a reality because everyone speaks about this stuff you know hating themselves and diets and how can they get thin and um but i want to let people know that it is a reality to um maybe not for everyone because of different dynamics and stuff but it is a reality that there are people out there who are not going to be judgmental towards your body, that you can create relationships and community with people who are, who are like-minded, who are fierce fatties and who will call you out. If you try and talk shit about yourself. And luckily after, you know, 10 years of therapy and all that type of stuff that's where i'm at in my life and it's i'm almost like this is unbelievable it's very strange and so wonderful and it really supports my mental health because here's the thing is you can't stop doing this work um we are bombarded by anti-fat stuff all the time going like go and watch you know a tv show bikini babes on the beach dating show immediately your brain's like oh maybe i should be a bikini babe and maybe i should be younger and maybe i should be thinner maybe i should get botox and maybe i should targeted advertising now on the media and everything constant it's constant so it's a constant kind of balancing of yeah i want to watch bikini babes on the media and everything constant it's constant so it's a constant kind of balancing of yeah i want to watch bikini babes on the beach show because it's i love trashy tv but you know i want to protect my mental health and how can i do both and can i do both and yeah well we have a lot of work to do yeah and that's the thing is i i i teach both sides right i teach help individuals and organizations because you it's really hard to do one without the other yeah and we're going to post you know every possible way that people can get a hold of you vinny in the show notes so folks out there um i know that you do have education that you do public education so people can like buy a ticket to a class um you know, and you do obviously corporate education as well. So if there are corporations out there looking for this type of support, you know, you are fabulous. And I can only imagine how good you must be in a small group.
So, yeah. Well, I think, well, I think I, yes. i yes thank you i'm just gonna take the compliment i was like not everyone likes me god erin no but everyone come on thank you yeah and um the uh the report that i was i was quoting from and talking about it's uh 58 pages of juicy stuff and so um i've got it i've got a link for people to download it amazing amazing yes i cannot wait to look at that that sounds so interesting it is i've been nerding out about it okay when did that was when was that released it hasn't Oh, it's brand new. It's, uh, I'm wait, I've, I've, I've just finished it like last week and I'm like, when should I release this? But everything's live. So people can get, can get, I just haven't shared the link with anyone. So I can, you know, obviously share it with you. And, um, it's amazing. Yes. I can't wait. Hot off those presses.
If there were presses. Awesome. Well, I really appreciate you coming on and chatting with me Vinny it's been a pleasure thank you Erin thanks for uh talking about fat stuff with me I really appreciate it oh yeah no it's it's been good we I need to talk about this more I think it's one of those things where it's like you need to shine a light on the dark areas of your life and have you know brought you shame and then that's how you dark areas of your life and have, you know, brought you shame. And then that's how you get out of it. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Like there's a quote from a controversial vigor, Brené Brown, but I like the quote, shame cannot survive the light. Oh yeah. Perfect. Yep. Yeah. So shine some light on that shame. Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Don't forget to stay weird, stay wonderful, and don't stay out of trouble!
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From the challenges faced to the victories celebrated, your host Erin Patchell, shares valuable insights on the good, the bad, and the ugly of her entrepreneurial journey so far. Stay tuned to find out what it takes to be an entrepreneur in today's world, and how to celebrate the small milestones on the path to success!
Stay in Touch:
https://ca.linkedin.com/in/erin-patchell
For more on Erin, her services, and her entrepreneurial journey:
https://trainedtohelp.com/
https://www.positivist.ca/
Script:
We're helping businesses become more inclusive and prove that and demonstrate that every single day. So it's not just a checkbox. It's actually real.
Welcome back to Weirdos in the Workplace workplace the podcast where we celebrate authenticity transparency passion and purpose as entrepreneurs and business leaders i'm your host erin patchell and today we're diving into the exciting milestones for the positivist group which is my company and our software software platform we're developing called cludi which is my company, and our software platform we're developing called Cludee, which is formerly known as the Train to Help project. And the reason why I'm sharing all of this, I'm a huge believer in transparency. And I think it's really important, especially for new entrepreneurs to hear from other entrepreneurs along their journey. And I'd love to share a little bit about the good, the bad and the ugly as we go along in this journey. And I'd love to share a little bit about the good, the bad and the ugly as we go along in this journey. And it hasn't been easy.
So I hope that comes across when I'm chatting. It is not an easy process. It is a constant, constant learning as you go and, you know, seeking and sensing into the environment and asking a lot of questions and asking yourself a lot of questions. So without further ado, today we're going to talk about where we are now, what it's been like to pilot the learner side of our platform with 40 live participants, and what is next on the horizon. And yes, I said pilot with live participants. And for those of you who have done this before, you may know how completely insane that really is. So why did we create Cludee in the first place, just to take a step back?
Our mission at Positivist Group has always been to make it profitable for businesses to do the right thing. It's a tough economy out there and we need to accept as business owners, every possible strategic advantage that we have. And one of those strategic advantages is to create business models that are built around and clearly demonstrate business as a force for good. And I know I, my friends will probably laugh because I always say this, but I joke around a lot about like world domination for good.
You'll probably hear those words come out of my mouth almost every single day, world domination for good, but it's not really a joke. It's our philosophy. world domination for good, but it's not really a joke. It's our philosophy. So if you take two customers who want to purchase a good or service, let's pretend you're going to buy a fridge and you give them two options. So two fridges, two different companies, identical variables, the quality of both fridges is the same or good. The warranty is the same. The investment cost is about the same. They're both convenient to purchase from. The service is accessible. The atmosphere of the business is nice. But the only factor that changes between these two fridges at these two different businesses is that 50% of the profit that they get from one fridge and one of the businesses is going to the food bank, let's say. Meanwhile, 100% of the profit from the other fridge and the other business is going into their shareholders' pockets. So I think it's pretty obvious that unless you're one of those shareholders, the decision's kind of a no-brainer.
Almost every time when I explain this to people, they're like, obviously I'm going to pick, I'm going to buy the fridge where 50% of the profit's going to a charity. Business as a force for good makes sense. Business is a force for good makes sense. So if you've heard me talk about this in the past, you know, also, probably that I have physical and neurodevelopmental disabilities, and I'm fairly public about them. I have other disabilities as well that are suspected, but not officially diagnosed. So I don't really talk about those. But even before I recognized that I had disabilities, I was kind of treated like an outcast. And I don't know, it was kind of chicken and egg. I don't blame anyone. I think it was, I didn't know how to be included just as much as people didn't know how to include me. But I was treated like an outcast and it took me many years to understand how I belong and where I fit in and how to be a social person. So something I do care about deeply and something the team, a positivist group cares about deeply as well, because we all have lived experience with this, is disability inclusion.
I also strongly believe that people need people. And I think that's a fact. People who are excluded socially probably need people even more than everyone else. People with disabilities also generally just want what everyone else does and what everyone else takes for granted. Like just to go for coffee with a friend, to go to the store, to buy a gift for a loved one, to socialize without causing a disturbance or to be made to feel welcome and not made to feel like a burden. We know that small businesses particularly struggle with accessibility, even to the level of basic compliance, which is frankly a pretty low bar. With how competitive it is in the market right now for businesses, particularly retail business and brick and mortar business, it's even more important for people with disabilities to feel included and respected in every single customer interaction. For one, they make up over 27% of the Canadian population over the age of 15, if you can believe that. And that's a true fact from Statistics Canada.
People with disabilities also spend $55 billion every single year. And that number is going to be increasing. Why? Because we are making it easier and easier for people with disabilities to work. People with disabilities have disposable income. They are consumers and they want to spend their money. They want to live like everyone else, you know? So let's let them, let's help them and give them a great experience, you know? And that's exactly what Cluedy is designed to do. When you become a Cluedy, you know, we're helping businesses become more inclusive and prove that and demonstrate that every single day. So it's not just a checkbox. It's actually real. We're providing transparency around that. We're helping businesses get the training and resources they need to provide an exceptional customer experience while also making it easier for people with disabilities to navigate the world with more confidence. So we're about four and a half months into the actual development of this platform, which is like, sounds like nothing. We're moving extremely quickly. And the last five months have felt like a whirlwind.
We surveyed first like back several months ago. I think it was just about the time I did episode 11. So episode 11, I also talked about this project as well and where we were at that point. Around episode 11, we were surveying customers with disabilities. We surveyed over 50 customers with disabilities and we're still talking to people constantly. This is a never ending learning. But at this time, we've surveyed 50 customers with intersectional disabilities to understand the good, the bad, and the ugly of their customer service experiences when they go and finally venture out to the world. We interviewed a couple of dozen business owners as well to understand their thoughts around accessibility and whether they were AODA compliant and they weren't. In fact, 97% didn't even know they were supposed to be. These are small businesses, by the way. Larger businesses over 20 employees, there are huge fines if they're not compliant. But the smaller businesses under 20 employees, while there are still fines, they kind of fall through the cracks because it's not really monitored as much. So in the past five months, we also completed the Invest Ottawa Ignition Program. And I went on stage and we did our pitch.
Every single one of the program participants did a pitch. And that was really fun pitch competition. Now we're taking advantage of the Flex program, support for business startups. We participated as a vendor in the Adaptive Living Expo. And it was extremely validating to talk to so many people with disabilities about this new venture, Cluedy. And they had huge enthusiasm for what we're doing. So that is really heartening. We attended the Collision Conference, which is North America's largest tech conference, talked to numerous founders and funders, understanding, you know, getting understanding of the lay of the land, how does this work, as we're becoming a technology startup, becoming a CEO of a technology company, there is a lot to learn. And we took away so many insights and growth opportunities from that. And just this Wednesday, we finally launched our pilot phase of Cluedy with almost 50 participants. The goal was to test the learner side of the platform in a real world setting because this platform includes the AODA compliance training that we're calling it Disability Inclusive Customer Service. So that was the platform, the side of the platform that we were testing.
And we wanted to see how our training would perform, how users would interact with the content, and most importantly, whether Cluedi could truly make a difference in enhancing accessibility and inclusion. So what does the pilot look like? Like I said before, the largest pilot, I've run many pilots in my life so far. This is by far the largest. Normally I have up know 12 to 15 participants um we had over 40 participants almost 50 participants employees business owners from retail stores restaurants and service-oriented businesses uh we decided to do it live so they were all doing and testing the platform together, providing feedback in numerous ways. We actually basically updated the platform. We had a little button so that any time throughout the entire journey on the platform, as they were exploring through the platform, they were able to provide feedback at any stage. And we knew exactly where that was within the platform. They also were able to write their feedback on a card. And then we held table conversations as well with a facilitator. So we gathered even more feedback that way. These people are on the front lines of customer service and they interact with the public every single day.
So getting their feedback was really critical. The pilot did involve that comprehensive training program that I mentioned, covered everything from AODA compliance to practical strategies for engaging with customers that have disabilities. The training was totally mobile based, which is the reason why it's mobile based, at least right now. And that's going to be the primary modality going forward is because people in those brick and mortar businesses don't often have access to computers. Although we are creating different versions so that, you know, there's different contexts that can be used. And not everybody has a phone, we learned. In fact, quite a few people said that they have quite a few employees who don't have phones, which means that they probably won't actually have access to a computer either. So we're going to need some kind of analog method of doing the training as well to make sure that we're including everyone. So that was definitely something we learned. And I honestly, I think I was a little bit naive because I had absolutely no idea there were so many people that still didn't have phones these days. So that's a learning. Yeah. So, but busy employees need convenience factor. After the, it had been something on our minds, but we definitely decided to do an audio only version as well. And we think that will be very popular, uh, especially for employees who are, you know, rushing around, they can pop the audio version in and, uh, do, do some training in between, you know, or when, when they've got a free moment. Um, but the feedback we received overall was incredibly insightful. So many people reported that the content was engaging and informative. They had new perspectives on how to approach customer service.
A lot of people mentioned how to communicate with people with disabilities. That was extremely insightful, that module that we did. So, you know, all in all, some really amazing feedback, positive and constructive. People really liked the real life scenarios as well. We took actual real life scenarios from real people with disabilities that they encountered in customer service environments and, you know, kind of like a what not to do. And I think that was very enlightening because there's quite a few scenarios like not moving a person's wheelchair. That isn't always necessarily common sense, you know. It doesn't, it's not instinctive. We don't understand it until we've learned it. So we also discovered some major areas for improvement. A couple I mentioned already. Some people wanted more interactive elements and case studies specific to their industries. So anyways, all of this feedback is extremely valuable. The good news was that the actual technology itself, everyone found to be really easy. So that's good news. The actual software was really easy to access, even for some of the older adults in the audience felt that it was super easy and straightforward. So that was good news. So we've already had several stories about employees who felt more confident and prepared to serve customers with disabilities once they've completed the training.
I followed up with a few people already, and they have really great things to say. So this is only the beginning, and they're going to be getting even more and more out of this platform as we continue forward. And I'm really excited to see how this continues and how the trajectory grows and how they're growing as people through the process. But of course, it was not without its challenges. We definitely had a few glitches, mainly related to the Wi-Fi in the building, which we knew was going to be a problem. And we had created some, we had managed that as best as we could, but we still had some challenges around the wifi. But, you know, everyone typically understood and we were able to manage it without any issues. But I would say if you're, if you're listening to this, cause you want to do a live pilot yourself, I would definitely find somewhere that has a very strong wifi connection or limit the number of people in the pilot and make it a bit of a smaller pilot. Because there was a bit of an overload despite the fact that we had, like I said, done everything we possibly could to mitigate the fact that the Wi-Fi wasn't as strong as it probably should have been.
So, okay. What is next for Cludee?
So we are in the process of refining the platform based on the feedback of the pilot participants. We are looking for at financing options now in order to fund the next four to six months of the project. I'm really hoping to bring there's one person, especially who's currently working as a contractor. And I'm really hoping to bring them on as a full time employee because they're extremely valuable. And they're just such a great fit for this project. But we'll see how it goes. Hopefully in the next update, the next, you know, I'm doing every 10 weeks, I'm going to provide an update on the Cludee platform. So hopefully the next update, I can say like, hooray, we've secured some financing, you know, and we're full steam ahead. So, but because we don't have the financing or funding right now, so we're, you know, either a loan or equity funding from investors, we are planning on getting this to market ASAP. So that's really our focus right now is creating the administrative side of the platform so that people can actually go on the website and purchase this product. It'll be the training just to start with adding features. We have so many amazing features that we're going to be adding over the next six months that we're really excited about.
But AODA training is really important and a lot of businesses are not currently compliant. So we figure there's a market for that even without the rest of the platform completed. So that is how we're handling, you know, needing to get to market really quickly is really like what is the increment that is valuable that people will be willing to pay for. And that's what we're starting with, you know, and if anyone out there is also bootstrapping a company, you know, that might be a good way to think about things. So, but yeah, we're, we're also in the meantime, we're enhancing the content, we're adapting it to different provincial legislation across Canada. We do intend on moving to the United States as well, but we're going to launch across Canada first. We're improving the user interface just a little bit, a few little tweaks, and then preparing for a broader live launch across Canada, hopefully in October.
Our next steps also include expanding the pilot to more businesses. And we're interested in bringing on another pilot, a separate pilot for people who have lived experience with disabilities. And that will be a paid pilot just to make sure that the content is as inclusive and effective as possible. And we're also intending on adding on new modules as well. So this is the Disability Inclusive Customer Service course and then micro learning modules. We'll be adding at least one a month as a value add for all of the members, for all of our Cludees out there, our Cludee businesses. We're also adding new features like the ability for businesses to track their accessibility improvements over time and receive personalized recommendations for further enhancements, as well as the Cluedy grant, which is our own grant to enhance accessibility in small businesses. And we are funding that from the profit of the company. So as a social enterprise, I think I've mentioned before, Cludee is a social enterprise, which means that half of our profit will be going towards a grant for small businesses.
So in closing, I want to thank our pilot participants for their enthusiasm, honesty, and commitment to make Cludee a success. This is just the beginning. I keep saying that, but really it is. It is like, you know, getting to market is literally the beginning. So we're even like pre, we're still pre-revenue. We're really, really at the beginning. But I'm kind of excited for you guys to come along this journey with us. And by the time we have our last episode, at the end of January 2025, we should be getting some traction, you know, so that would be the that's the plan. But we're super thrilled to have such passionate businesses and individuals becoming Cludees. And we're excited about the future of Cludee and the impact that it will make in making our world more accessible and inclusive.
So stay tuned for more updates. And as always, we welcome your feedback. If you're interested in joining the Cludee community or learning more about how we can help your business or possibly partner with us in other ways, visit our website or reach out directly to me at erin at positivist.ca, E-R-I-N at P-O-S-I-T-I-V-I-S-T dot C-A. And I'm on LinkedIn pretty frequently. So feel free to ping me on LinkedIn. That would be linkedin.com slash I N slash Erin E R I N dash patchell P A T C H E L L.
Thanks for listening until, until next time, stay weird, stay wonderful, and don't stay out of trouble!
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If Alex Keenan is known for anything, it's for knowing how to take the “ick out of public speaking"!
From public speaking at conferences to courtrooms to crowded bars, Alex has learned a thing or ten about authentic audience connection and making public speaking a fun and crucial skill for success.
With a deep understanding of how to bridge gaps between people - and a gift for helping her clients find the strength to confront their fears - Alex helps her clients speak confidently, find the right words, and build a stage presence that is powerfully authentic.
As Alex says weirdos, let's take the "ick out of public speaking and start showing up sauthentically"!
Stay in Touch with Alex:
LinkedIn Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexandrakeenan/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/StageLightCommunications
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/stagelightcomms/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRIXL11O608vVB9FNQZybdQ
For more on Alex and her services:
https://stagelight.ca/
Script:
That means two things. It means that you can, you have a lot of leeway to just be yourself and not really worry about what people are saying. It also means that you have to work a lot harder than you think to get noticed and to get people to retain your ideas. And so I think it's a question of, you know, go out there and be who you are and don't stop being who you are and don't stop saying what you have to say.
Welcome to Weirdos in the Workplace, a podcast that celebrates authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose at work. I'm really happy to have Alex Keenan on the show. Welcome, Alex.
Thank you. I'm so happy to be here.
So Alex takes the ick out of public speaking. She's spoken everywhere from conferences to rooms to crowded bars and learned a thing or two about authentic audience connection. She works with businesses, professionals, and change makers who recognize that public speaking is a crucial tool for their success. And I would say if you're a person who has a message, you have something important that you want to share with the world and that you want to get it out there, but you're a little too afraid to take that first step, this is the perfect podcast episode for you. I'm really excited to chat with you, Alex.
Thank you.
Awesome. Okay. So let's just give you an opportunity to tell everyone about yourself. You know, what is it that has motivated you to, to do this in the first place? Yeah, I think people are really interesting. Like, how do we connect with each other? Or how do we kind of fail to connect with each other? And what's what's going on in that space in between?
So I came through a career change, I used to practice law, which I'll get into that it was it wasn't the right fit for me. But I did learn a lot about how you know how do you show up how do you think on your feet and put your best case forward be persuasive and I combine kind of that background with you know I do comedy so I used to be an improv teacher I've done stand-up and then so there you learn how to be more authentic, how to really engage with a group. And I kind of, I bring these things together. And mostly I work with professionals and business owners on how to promote themselves professionally. But I really think that we need to let go of this idea that professional communication needs to be boring and soulless and robotic. And we can bring who we are into the way that we communicate, the way that we express ourselves and how we, you know, show ourselves to the world. Yeah.
I'm so glad to hear you say that. I mean, and that there's a perfect segue into like, you know, I'm, I'm definitely a weirdo. I can't not be a weirdo. Like if I'm talking into a group of people, it's going to bubble out no matter what I do to try to keep it under wraps. Do you identify as a weirdo at all? I sure do. I sure do. Has that influenced the work that you do, do you think? So I, you know, there are a lot of there are a lot of rules of public speaking and communication that I just, you know, don't worry about it. Don't start with a quote, you know, like don't picture the audience in their underwear. Don't don't obsessive about whether you are using filler words. Filler words are communication. And I think we really need to be strategic.
And I like to be kind of, you know, data driven and analyzing, you know, how do we communicate with each other and what's the impact that it's having? And so sometimes I work with clients. I don't just do public speaking. I also work with people who are trying to be more effective in their workplace communication. And so, for example, sometimes I get women who come in and say, oh, the, you know, the men that I'm in meetings with say I use too much upspeak.
And so I'll start with, OK, here's what upspeak here's why can I swear on here I yes please do and also I don't know what up speak is for someone you know for someone to yeah you know pretend that you're not a professional because you have a certain vocal habit oh you mean like what's it called yeah yeah like when you know like your voice kind of goes up. Oh, yeah. Is there another word for that too? I can't remember.
Yeah, I think there's, there might be another word for that as well. I can't remember, but yeah. Okay. So it's when you're like, I've noticed that actually it's interesting you say that because on my first, if you listen to a lot of my first podcast episodes, it's one of the things that I gave myself feedback on that I've been trying not to do anymore. Is that like, da, da, da, like kind of like ask you like, almost like you're asking a question. Is that what you're talking about? Yeah, exactly. But it's really interesting because there are people who, especially if women are doing it, well, you know, kind of like judge and say, it makes you sound insecure and it, you know, it takes away your credibility. But if you, you know, if you look at the science and the linguistics behind the use of that technique, just to name one, there's a lot of subtlety. And it depends on who is using it and what their position in that relationship is.
And so just kind of flattening it down to this is annoying and it makes you sound insecure is, you know, it's simplistic. Yeah, it's very simplistic. And it kind of flattens out the communication that takes place within that vocal habit. And so, you know, we start with that conversation, but you should not have to change everything that you are just to be accepted in your workplace. But, you know, if it is holding you back, here are some options and you can choose how you go forward with this. Here's how you can train yourself to make a choice about whether you're going to use that or not. And bring that out in whatever way is going to get you the results that you want and allow you to be authentic when you feel you need to be authentic and to adapt when you feel you need to adapt. Yeah. So, oh my goodness. Yeah.
There are so many things that like looking back, especially on the podcast, because when you're podcasting, you don't get a lot in real life, you don't get a lot of opportunities to actually listen to yourself talk over and over and over again, like recorded. Right. I think podcasting and, you know, is one of the opportunities, obviously. And so every week I would listen to, especially when I was in the first season, when I was editing everything by myself and it was constant critique. It's funny because we're, I don't do that to other people, you know, like I do to myself, but how many people are still, I wonder like, what is the judgment? I don't know that we're there yet. I think there's still a lot the judgment? I don't know that we're there yet. I think there's still a lot of judgment out there for the way that we present ourselves professionally. Yeah, I think there absolutely is. I'm sorry. I turned my phone off. Absolutely.
Yeah, there is a lot of judgment in, you know, in many respects. And that's sometimes why people come to me is because they're getting that judgment and people feel absolutely entitled to say, I don't like the way you speak. And I don't think there's, there's an easy answer to that. I think part of it is education. Part of it is normalization. You know, the way that one generation speaks becomes, you know, the norm when, when they grow up. And so it's, you know, it's constantly changing. But I think there is a lot of power in being able to identify, you know, listen to yourself in a recording, say, okay, this is what's happening. And I didn't realize it. What can I do about this if I want to do something about it? Right? Yeah.
And then you have the autonomy to choose. Exactly. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah yeah but I think you were not alone in not liking to listen to it I don't like to listen to myself I'm good now like now that I've done it a hundred times I'm like okay now I like the sound of my own voice and I'm like yeah bring it on yeah good good no it's gotten to the point where I'm like it's too much now I'm like okay Erin you gotta you know relax well and I think it comes from when you're hearing it once in a while what you're hearing clashes with what you actually think you sound like and so it's this weird um you know disparity between your expectations and what you're distorted yeah yeah and if you're used to hearing yourself on recording you're just okay that's what I sound like and you can just move on from that but it takes some time it's true um but you can definitely like my voice has changed you know the I don't even know if it's changed for the better to be honest now that I'm like sometimes I go back to those first episodes and I'm like oh I feel like I feel like my voice was I feel like things were a little more natural back then um and not I don't know maybe I've yeah, putting on too many airs now or something, but whatever, we evolve.
Maybe I'll go, maybe I'll devolve and then that'll be better. But I think I've told you this before about my journey into being able to speak in front of people and that, and you were also, I think, pretty shy growing up. Oh yeah. From what I, yeah. Yeah. We were both big time shy. And so I would love to have a conversation about that because I think a lot of our weirdo followers out there who are listening to this, you know, we're passionate people like weirdos, especially, or the way that I define it, at least, you know, folks who are, have a bit of a chip on their shoulder. Maybe they haven't always felt included.
There's something maybe a little bit different about the way they think or unique about the things that they're interested in. So usually very passionate, right? Like focused and passionate, sometimes hyper-focused on things. Uh, and so having something to say, right. Or something that you want to like an agenda, you've got something, some way you want to change the world usually for the good, I hope. Um, but just feeling blocked on like how to get past that first step, um, for people that are out there who want to take that first step. And they're like, I think I'm motivated to take that first step. What would you suggest, recommend? I think the first thing is, you know, give yourself a break. A lot of people, you know, they fear public speaking. They fear, you know, speaking up and kind of judge themselves for that.
But it's so normal, right? Most of us didn't learn how to do this. for that but it's so normal right most of us didn't learn how to do this we were just kind of thrown into okay you're in class and you need to give this presentation in front of all the other kids and some of them might be bullying you and just go for it and do well and then we get into the work world and it's the same thing get up and talk about your work so you know um we can all we can all silently judge you or at least that's how it feels and you know there will be consequences if you don't do well but we're not going to bother giving you the time to learn it.
And so we, it kind of almost sets people up to fail. So I think, first of all, you know, giving yourself a break and recognizing that the reason it feels so negative might be because we only do it in these situations where we're forced to, and there could be negative consequences. And so one thing that I recommend to people all the time is if you want to get better at this go do something you think is fun you know um like some some people I know um some of my clients some of my friends love Toastmasters and that's terrific for them I quit Toastmasters four times it wasn't fun for me and that's fine it's just a personal thing my thing was improv yeah and it was it was great to just be able to get on stage in front of people and let loose and not worry about what was going to happen because once that scene is done that scene is done and nobody thinks about it again and um and so that was kind of my pathway to be able to just show up and and not worry about how I was being judged for some people it might be you know you want to you want to run your book club or you want to get certified to teach the fitness class that you like taking, right?
Whatever is that thing that's going to get you in front of people and you're excited enough to do it, but that overrides the fear that you have of it. That's your path to overcoming your fear and to starting to enjoy it. Right. Yeah. So you can take like really baby steps, like getting in front. I think my first thing was like corporate training, right? Like going in and internal training first, like training my team, like first a couple of people, then more people. And then, you know, external to the corporation. So like, you know, doing work with clients and getting in front of people and doing stuff like that. And then it was workshops, like public workshops. And then, you know, it got bigger and bigger. But like starting even back before that, before that was sales, honestly, like, when I was like 1213, I couldn't even make a phone call.
Like I was terrified. Like, did you ever go through that? Like? call like I was terrified like did you ever go through that like um yes yeah for sure I couldn't I couldn't even pick up the phone to I'd have to write down a whole script it was like calling my friend to go on a you know go out to the movie like even even something like that yeah it was extreme like I'd literally have to write out a whole script um and then it was literally practice and practice and practice and practice. And then in my 30s, I started in business development, like kind of like thrown into it. And I had a list of people I had to call. And it was like, yeah, it was like cold calling. But the nice thing about cold calling is like, there's no pressure, really, you know, it feels like pressure, but there's no, like, there's nothing, nothing's going to happen if they say no and they won't talk to you and nothing's going to happen if you like bungle up that phone call.
Cause they will never remember you, you know? Yeah. Yeah. They don't know you. They're total strangers. Right. Yeah. That's such a great point. Yeah. So people get a lot of anxiety around cold calls, but I think it's like one of the lowest risk things that you can start on if you just need to practice talking to people. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, there's going to be a certain failure rate. And so it's not personal. No. I mean, maybe it is, but like you're learning, right? Yeah. Like start on like low risk potential client or leads or whatever. Like don't start on your like you know the highest the most important people to talk to exactly yeah yeah yeah anyways yeah so I never like I never really thought about it in those terms but you're absolutely right yeah sales was really helpful and now I feel like I can talk to anyone unless it's certain situations that get my like guard up or whatever and then I'm like back to square one.
So how did you end up in a situation where you, you are terrified to talk on the phone and you're suddenly you're doing cold calls. Like, how did you make, I mean, that was like, there was like probably 12 years in between those two, you know? So it was a long time. Cause I didn't really start, I didn't start in business development until I was like in my early thirties. Um, but even at the beginning of that, like I would have a whole script written out and I would know what I was going to say. And then after like the first thousand cold calls, you know, I could throw the script out and, um, you know, it was just, it was just, my boss was like, I actually wasn't even my boss. It was, I felt like I needed to be useful in a different way. Um, and so I pushed myself to do that because I was like, I want to be like beyond a doubt useful. Right.
And so to, to me, sales is like, you know, every business needs sales. Like you're pretty much always going to have a job if you're a great salesperson. Right. Yeah. You know, so to me becoming like, you know, absolutely without a doubt useful meant like contributing revenue generation. But not everyone goes that way. That was a motivating factor. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, there's a strong desire behind it. Exactly. That's factor. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, there's a strong desire behind it. Exactly. That's key. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And how about for you? What led you to this? Oh, it was a long and winding road. So I am, yeah, I was very shy growing up and it took me a long time to get over that. I mean, I think, so law school did it, I think, but in a really weird way. So in second year, we had to do, it's called a moot. And so it's basically a mock legal argument. So you get your case and you have to come up with, you know, your arguments for or against it and you present it. And they, you know, they had professors, they had upper year students and they had lawyers from the community as the judges. And they would just hammer you with questions. You would get maybe one sentence out and then they would just start asking you questions. And I did do great at this. It was not, you know, it was not my top strength.
And I was still very nervous at that point. And the practitioner, the lawyer who was on my judges panel, heckled like he made fun of me and you just have to stand you just have to stand there and and answer the questions and stay calm and um it was awful it was awful but then you know I got got down from there and sat down and I'm like oh I am not dead I guess it's fine right and um yeah I survived this. And so what's the, what's the worst that anybody could do to me? And then, you know, I practiced law for a while and sometimes you're getting up there and the judge is cranky and they're just not buying what you're trying to sell them. And you just have to, you know, commit and go for it and hope for the best. And sometimes it was, sometimes it was awful. But then there was one day I sat down and, you know, I had it was it was a really challenging day. And I sat down and went, Oh, was that fun? You know, like my heart was beating, but not in a negative way.
Right. You know, fear and excitement are so tightly tied to each other you know like that's why people love horror movies right and sometimes you get to this point where you realize you're you're not experiencing it as fear anymore you're just like you're just amped up yeah and that's when it shifts because then it's not negative anymore it's it's just a thing you do and you can feel good about it that's true that that that definitely happened to to me as well or happens to me pretty much every time I go on stage. It's like I'm terrified and then I settle into kind of like a kind of like alert but like ready state. And then somewhere between the beginning and the end, it's, there's like, it's like, I'm doing the thing. And then at the end, once I've decompressed, it's like, now I'm just excited. Like, when can I do the next one? Let's go. I'm like, yeah, the adrenaline's going, all the good hormones are flooding and everything.
It's like, it's over. You know, do you find you get into that state of flow while you're speaking yeah um but that actually was really difficult for me to learn how to do it and sometimes I'm still I'm struggling to still find the best like hook into that I guess I would say or like you know you've got to like so I find I find storytelling really helps and I know that that's something that I think you teach as well probably is around storytelling yeah as a tactic um there's certain tactics that I've I've learned that that that seem to help trigger that flow state can you talk a little bit about that yeah um where to dive in because there's so much in it yeah I think the biggest part of it is when you start to feel connection with the audience like I'm not performing for people anymore I'm just I'm here I'm doing my thing they're getting something out of it and I find that happens best when I can find a few people in the audience who are they're just into it right you're going to look out at the audience and you're going to have some people who are nodding along. They're going to have some people who are zeroed in on you. You're going to have some people who are looking like this. I'm like, you know, that might just be their face. I, you know, I don't take it personally.
We don't judge. But, you know, so when you find people who are really keyed into what you're saying, and then it's a connection and we're just, you know, I'm just having a one-sided conversation with them or, you know, I really like to be interactive when I can. And so, you know, I'm just having a one-sided conversation with them or, you know, I really like to be interactive when I can. And so, you know, how can I bring them into, you know, to be talking to me? And I find that it, you know, you're interacting with each other in a really deep way. I find for some people movement can really help them with that. So you can use not just body language, but your movement in a space to highlight. So, you know, one technique is if you're kind of comparing and contrasting, you can kind of move over to this space to, you know, compare like before, and then move over to this space when you talk about after. And as you move between those spaces, you're conditioning the audience to think, okay, now she's talking about this, now she's talking about this.
And so you can kind of get the audience into a groove with that, but you can also get yourself into a groove with this. lot of nervous energy on stage and and just being learning how to move strategically she was burning off that nervous energy and she you know it just became yeah I'm like thinking back I'm like that is so me yeah and for the people watching it was just this hypnotic thing and she wasn't just pacing she was moving very purposefully but it was able to kind of meet that need for her to be moving yeah like what I did did recently did a pitch at Invest Ottawa for our other project, the Train to Help project, which we are rebranding soon. And I will release that information shortly. Little tidbit. But I remember I was practicing, we were coming home. I'd almost memorized the whole three minute pitch. And I use a lot of hand motions to help me remember the words, right? And there was this, I was stuck on this one line.
I was like, man, and it's a three minute pitch and they don't give you a second more, right? So you have to literally memorize that whole thing, like word for word for word. And so we were on my way home, Noemi, one of our team members and I were driving home from Collision Conference and literally I was driving from Toronto and then going straight to the Invest Ottawa to do the pitch and I remember you know she's just she's like helping me mime she's literally like miming all of my hand gestures to me and there was one where she was like you know she's doing this and I'm like you know it's just triggering that word for me so and I'm like you gotta stand in front of me in the audience and literally like mime the things with me to try to help me remember this just this one line this these like four words that I couldn't remember for the life of me for some reason because I was exhausted um it just was really funny moment no I love yeah yeah yeah the memory the muscle memory kind of encodes what you want to say and that's why why, you know, you get feedback. Sometimes people will say, oh, you use too many hand gestures. You know, you don't you don't use your hands enough and everyone has their own taste.
So my take is just just do what feels natural because we don't just, you know, we don't just speak with our hands. We think with our hands, right? You're, you know, that message is encoded in the way that you move when you practice it and so if you're certainly forced to you know to keep your hands still when you're used to moving them it's it's harder to think like it's harder to remember what you're trying to say yeah it totally is yeah what other tricks of the trade are uh to get get us into flow get us like locked into yeah oh um well I think one one thing is even before you know even before you start getting familiar with the space that you're in and kind of getting grounded in it so one thing that like most you know professional speakers show up early and just kind of take a look around and get up there in that space and just be there. So you are comfortable and you know, you know where you need to be. You, you, you know how far you can move forward before you fall off the stage and all of this.
And my, my first improv instructor, he taught us this exercise that I absolutely love. And sometimes I do it inside my head, which is, you know, you get into a space and if you're feeling a little bit nervous, okay, it goes like this. My name is Alex Keenan and I own this stage. And when I'm working with clients, if we're working on the nerves, we do some exercises to kind of deconstruct what are the stories that they're telling themselves that are, you know, convincing them that, you know, that this is a bad and scary thing and how can we transform those messages? And then like, we do this, we like out loud with as much swagger as you've got, and you're not just doing it once, you're doing it three times. Oh God. I love it. You're like, become like a whole like WWE announcer. love it you like become like a whole like wwe announcer oh yeah yeah more swagger right that's awesome yeah that's hilarious oh gosh yeah i'm trying to think like what other hacks have i ever employed like i think people sometimes underestimate how much they need to practice i think that's a big one or at least for me i don't know about other people but um i uh i don't think i've ever had anything go well if I haven't practiced enough. No, no, exactly. Yeah. And you need to practice out loud. They get self-conscious because there might be someone in the next room who could hear them. But if you're just reading it to yourself, you're not practicing. No. You need, again, that muscle memory. You need to make that happen. I put sticky notes on the wall with faces drawn on them. So that while I'm practicing, I'm making eye contact with somebody.
Oh, that's a good idea. Yeah. Yeah, really good idea. Actually. Like I've always I found like, I did when it was the disrupt HR. So I can't remember the format. It's like, how many slides 15 slides in five minutes is that right slide every 20 seconds there's a name for that format that I can't remember right now um so there was one that's similar to that is called Pecha Kucha and yeah Pecha Kucha okay yeah there's another one too yeah Pecha Kucha um and that one I that, that was my first like time, like going up and having to memorize something like that, you know? And that one, I remember I, I literally practice in no less than like six different locations. I was like driving all over the world, like practicing because I just wanted to feel comfortable in like any situation. Cause I knew that I had never been there before. It's a weird crowd. It's a weird location. Like I'm, I'm socially anxious. So for me, like practicing in different locations, I think that was really helpful and it went really well. Yeah. Yeah. No, I love that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You really need to, in order to be adaptable to just try it out in different ways in front of different people. Yeah. So how do you help as a coach? Like when you're coming alongside someone and you're like kind of their guide through this, like what, how do you play that role? How does that work? Hmm. So it depends what they need and where they're coming in, usually the first step is addressing, you know, the nerves, the fear, the self-doubt. And we kind of dig into, you know, what's the story that you're telling yourself and how can you rewrite that story?
Because so much of communication, and that includes self-talk, is a habit that you need to, you need to recognize what you're doing. And then you need to be able to You need to recognize what you're doing and then you need to be able to intervene at the right moment in order to make a different choice. And so we work on, you know, the habits of that self-talk. This is all going to go wrong. What if this happens? What if that happens? You know, identify, okay, so if something goes wrong, what are you going to do? Let's make a plan, right? And so then they have a plan. They have, you know, new messages. So when that, you know, what if this bad thing happens? They have, you know, new messages. So when that, you know, what if this bad thing happens, they have, you know, an answer to it. What if this good thing happens? That kind of thing. We own the stage. I work with them on messaging. So a lot of times people come to me and they have something that they are preparing for.
And so we'll work on, you know, what's your message? Who's your audience? What do they need to hear? You know, what are you, what are you trying to accomplish? And how can they help you? And what do they need to hear from you in order to want to help you? What's going to get them excited about helping you? You know, what do they need to know? What do they want to know? What kind of stories will speak to them? And we, you know, we put, we put that together and then we, we work on the delivery and it's, you know, me, you know, we put, we put that together and then we, we work on the delivery and it's, you know, me, you know, they might practice and I'll kind of observe, okay, you know, here, here's what you do really well. Here are the habits that you have, um, that might not be serving you. Here are some practices that I'm going to give you to, you know, to reshape those. We do a lot of, a lot of breathing exercises. Breathing is, is key. we do a lot of a lot of breathing exercises breathing is is key I've gotten into trouble a few times yeah like in breathing when especially when you're like you're like nervous right so you're probably hyperventilating maybe a little bit or at least I noticed that and then it's like you can run out of air really quickly so yeah what how do you how do you help people with that like what's your's your recommendation?
Um, so we, you know, first of all, we do, um, a lot of just, you know, like, um, diaphragmatic breathing, right. Um, getting used to big, deep inhales into, you know, into your diaphragm, not, but you know, deep, deep breath. And so that's, you know, it's a foundation for calming yourself down. First of all, it's a foundation for being able to project your voice. It's a foundation for pacing. Like this is, you know, one of the things that I have worked on and continue to work on because I've always been a really fast talker and I had to train myself to, you know, to speak at a normal human pace. And sometimes when I get excited or nervous, it still comes out. And so, you know, it's doing these different exercises that force you to breathe, that force you to kind of stop and slow down and breathe. And then you're, you know, you're building your lung capacity, you're building your control over your voice. And then, you know, so then we can turn that into, okay, how do you, you know, speak to someone who is five feet in front of you? How do you use that, that voice to speak to someone who's on the other side of the room? How do you use that voice to speak to someone on the other side of the football field, right? So you can control your voice, how it's heard, who it's heard by, how quickly or slowly you go. So you can create, you know, you can create emotions using the speed of your voice.
And yeah, this is just how we, you know, we create a mood and start to influence people based on just how you use your voice. But it starts with being able to control your voice, which starts with being able to control your breath. Right. And the awareness, I guess. Yes. Yeah. Aware awareness is huge yeah yeah okay okay this is awesome I feel like I'm learning a lot thank you for that I'm my pleasure I can nerd out about this all day oh yeah well for sure um the the thing is like it's so important like I don't think people realize like I think public speaking and writing compelling, like writing a compelling anything story, you know, and then turning that into something that you can share with people. I think those are the two most important skill sets probably, or two of the most important skill sets for sure, you know, that you can have period. I mean, if you can have period I mean if you want to sell anything if you want to get your point across if you want to make any change happen you need to be able to convince people to do you know to to understand what you're trying to do and to make it relevant for them right um yeah you can't do that without without those skills no no exactly and um yeah speaking of that you have to be able to be concise about it and this is one of the things that I learned practicing law is you know you might write a 20 page brief for a judge they might read the first line and so you need to be able to summarize your argument in one sentence and I make people do that all the time. Yeah, the presentation, do it to me in one sentence.
And then that's hard. And a lot of people that I work with, they have trouble with rambling. Because, you know, the thoughts are not, you know, fully clarified, or, you know, maybe there's this fear of not being understood. And so we work on how you, you know, narrow this down, how you make it clear and concise because people don't have all day and they're just sitting there going, okay, get to the point, you know, what have you got for me? Yeah, absolutely. Practice, practice, practice, like watch people. If their eyes glaze over, then maybe, you know, maybe try something different. Exactly. Yeah. And so that's where the practice, you know, you can practice what you've got, but then sometimes you have to go off script and that's a whole other skillset that, you know, how do you learn to think more quickly on your feet and how do you, you know, adapt to the unexpected? And that's, you know, another set of skills that I work with people on. Yeah. Like the improv skills almost yeah yeah but like people often think like improv it's like you know oh you're just like winging it or whatever but you're not like people like improv actors they're practicing their craft yeah it is a skill yeah exactly yeah there are principles that you apply to any given situation yeah and lots of pattern recognition as well exactly exactly yeah yeah yeah awesome and yeah I find that really comes in handy like when you know you realize that the audience isn't having it you need to go off script and when uh you're in a Q&A and anything could happen right yes that's true and learning how to like accept constructive feedback like in in the moment as well. I think that's a really, anyways, there's so many things we could talk about. Oh yeah. Uh, I just noticed, I'm noticing the time and we're kind of getting to the time where we start to, you know, think about wrapping up.
Is there anything that you wanted to be like, you know, share with, you know, folks who really want to have their voices heard? Any like final thoughts or inspirational, an inspirational moment? I think that the biggest thing is knowing that people are not observing you as closely as you are observing yourself. There is something called the spotlight effect where, you know, we think that we are being very, very closely observed, everyone else is kind of doing their thing, going about their life and obsessing over how they are being perceived. And so that means two things. It means that you can, you have a lot of leeway to just be yourself, and not really worry about what people are saying. It also means that you have to work a lot harder than you think to get noticed and to get people to retain your ideas. And so I think it's a question of, you know, go out there and be who you are and don't stop being who you are and don't stop saying what you have to say, because that's really, that's what it takes. And I think that, you know, we all have the right to be heard and to be able to exist the way that we are.
Oh, you make me cry. That's beautiful. Thank you so much for joining us, Alex.
It's been such a pleasure.
Don't forget to stay weird, stay wonderful, and don't stay out of trouble!
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Having had 32 jobs in 15 years, Steph Gillies has amassed an ample amout of experience to learn how to perfect the job search! Now as a professional resume writer and career coach, Steph Gillies helps individuals embrace their identitifies and land their dream jobs in a competitive economy.
Since 2020, she has helped over 1000 people improve their branding, tailor their resumes and land their dream jobs!
So folks, take your pens and papers out, and get ready to take notes on tips and tricks from the resume whisperer!
Stay in touch with Steph:
http://www.linkedin.com/in/stephgillies
Instagram: @destinationdreamjob
For more on Steph and her services:
http://www.destinationdreamjob.com
Hiring managers are going to see the same resume, like that looks very similar from like 10 different people. And if you can really showcase your uniqueness and what sets you apart, that's really what's going to stand out.
Welcome to Weirdos in the Workplace, the podcast that celebrates authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose in our world of work today. My name is Erin Patchell, your host, and I'm here with Steph Gillies, who is, well, how about we just let Steph say hi for now.
Hey, how's it going?
And now I will introduce you. So Steph is a career story coach helping individuals embrace their misfit identity and land their dream job. She's had 32 jobs in 15 years and through that experience she really learned how to perfect the job search. When she was laid off from what she thought was her dream job in 2020, she jumped full-time to business as a resume writer and career coach and has since helped over 1,000 people improve their branding and land their dream job. Welcome to the podcast.
Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
My pleasure and we kind of got the opportunity to work together a few years ago, which is how we met.
Yeah, unfortunately, not too closely. But I always heard such great things about the work that you did. And yeah, so you're you're a real pro.
Oh, thank you.
Yeah. And then I heard about you through, you know, that same organization and the great work that you're doing with your new company. So thank you so much. Yes. OK, so before we get started, why don't you just tell folks a little bit about yourself other than, you know, maybe something that's not in your bio? Like, what is it that brings you joy? Yeah, I think that, you know, working with people over the past few years, there's a few things that I've really learned and that I really love to share with people that I've learned from different people. You know, when I grew up, when I was younger, people always told me, you know, you got to go to school, get a job, work there until you retire. Right.
That was the message. You know, a lot of baby boomers passed on that message to their kids. And I was one of those people who had that message passed on. And, you know, after, you know, helping a thousand people with their personal branding and, you know, their career story, it's quite interesting to see how many people, you know, don't have that linear career path and how many people have made complete changes in their life. And so I'm one of those people who've made lots of different changes throughout my career. You know, I have multiple passions. I'm very excited about different things.
And, you know, I think that I know this is supposed to be about me and I'm not talking about me at all, but I think that's just really, you know, what I'm passionate about and what my message is, is to really teach people that you don't have to just be one thing. You know, you can be whatever you want to be. If you want to change your job, you know, five times you go and do that. If you want to marry multiple jobs together, I think that's also really exciting.
And so, yeah, so I think that's kind of what I'm really passionate about and kind of a little bit of my own story as well. Yeah. Okay. So let's a little nugget from within that, like finding that thread. So I think a lot of people have a hard time with that when they're multi-passionate and, you know, maybe they're curious about lots of things and they want to dive into lots of things and live lots of different lives, like especially career lives.
You still need to find that thread through everything. Like what is it that connects all the dots so that your next employer, you know, can understand your story. So maybe we can take that and table it and talk about that a little bit later because I think that could be yeah for sure yeah so uh what makes you a weirdo Steph Gillies um well you know I call myself a misfit because I never really felt like I fit in you know growing up I went to an all girls private school um I wore a kilt every day to school and I've worn a dress maybe three times since then.
You know, I never really, I never really felt like I fit in with all the girls and, you know, but I wasn't, you know, boyish enough to fit in with the boys. And so I was always kind of, I was always kind of different. And I went to church for a while and I would ask a lot of questions and they would tell me to stop asking questions because it's just about, you know, whatever the message was that they were giving and that didn't work for me either.
And so, and then, you know, as you, as you shared in my bio, I had 32 jobs in 15 years and every time I would get into a job, I would get really good at it and then I would get bored. So I'd move on to something else. This was before I knew what informational interviews were, and I probably could have saved myself a lot of time had I done a little more research, but that's okay. It's part of my story. And, you know, it was a lot of fun. Honestly, I had, you know, at one point I had like four different jobs. They were all part-time and I just, yeah, I was just marrying different passions together, trying different things and trying to find out what fit. And so I think that, you know, in my 30s has really been the time where I have embraced a lot more of who I am, rather than trying to fight it or trying to hide from it.
So I, you know, this in the past two years, I shaved my head and got my nose pierced. So you know, it's been a lot of fun. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You can be whoever you want to be. you know it's been a lot of fun yeah yeah absolutely you can be whoever you want to be I think that's like a general sense that especially younger people have today the you know I'm raising whatever three uh gen z kids gen z yeah that's right oh my gosh my brain is like not it's like not computing all of the different generations these days. What are they all called again? Yeah, so three Gen Zs and they are fully whoever they want to be. You know what I mean? Like they literally don't care. They're just like going to be who they are.
So I think we need to prepare for that too. Totally. Yeah, it's a different world now than it was for sure when I was growing up. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, don't put baby in the corner. Yeah. It's a different world now than it was for sure when I was growing up. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Don't put baby in the corner. Yeah. That was not the message at the all girls Catholic school that I went to. So Oh my gosh. But it's okay.
So you've worked with, you've helped over 1000 people improve their brand branding, their career stories and land their dream job. How did you end up in this niche after having, you know, what was it, 32 jobs in 15 years? Yeah, it's so when I had done all those jobs, I was kind of, you know, trying to, I'd always been interested in business. And so I was like, what could I do? And I found, you know, Career Profession professionals of Canada. And I was like, oh, there's a resume certification. So about nine years ago now, I took that certification. And I was like, maybe I'll do something with it. But then I was full time in the nonprofit world, which as most people know, it's a lot of work, you know, you're often overworked and underpaid. And so I was just busy, you know, doing that. And I wasn't really focusing on, you know, you're often overworked and underpaid. And so I was just busy, you know, doing that. And I wasn't really focusing on, you know, my business in my spare time.
So I only wrote a few resumes. And when I was laid off in 2020, it was kind of a decision point for me. I had to decide, you know, do I want to go back to work in the nonprofit world, which I wasn't super excited about? Or, you know, should I just dive in and start a business? And so I took some time to think about it and I did decide to dive into business. I had a part, I did get a part-time job while, while I was off and then I completely quit it. And I started two businesses actually, but the other one didn't work out. And one of them was writing resumes. And I thought, you know, this will just be temporary. It's something that I know how to do and I'll, I'll get good at it. And then, you know, I'll just figure out what I want to do. And here we are three years later, I'm still doing it. You know, I love, I love helping people, you know, figure out that career story and really helping them to identify what sets them apart so that when they are applying for jobs, then they can, you know, stand out in the job application process because, you know, everyone and their dog says they're really good at teamwork.
So how can you set yourself apart from the people who are like, Hey, I'm great at teamwork, you know, because we all say that in our resume. So my clients don't, but like, no, I'm not good at teamwork. Like, no, I hate that. Yeah. Oh yeah. I have people that were like that. Yeah. Don't put that in there. That's not true. Right. Like, yeah. Well, and knowing, knowing your strengths, right. Not just knowing your strengths, knowing your, you know, your purpose, your interests. So diving into that, how essential would you say that is in terms of the job search like today compared to the way it was when you first started? Yeah. You know, with remote work, I mean, I started my business right in the middle of the pandemic. And so things were changing, you know, as I started. But I noticed that, you know, pre-pandemic, you know, they said the stats are the average application gets about 250 applicants, which is a lot. You know, when you think about that, that's a lot. But nowadays with remote work, we're talking like, I don't know the exact stats, so don't quote me on this, but we're talking like, I've heard recruiters say they get like 5,000 to 2,000, sorry, 500 to 2,000 applicants per job application.
So that's crazy. Like, how are you even supposed to navigate that many, that many resumes? Like it's not possible. So that means that the, for sure. Yeah. That means that it's so much more competitive than it was before. And I would say that's, that's more true for entry level positions rather than, you know, if you're mid-level or senior level, director level, you're not, your competition is not as high because, you know, there's just less people who have the experience that you're bringing to the table. And so this is more for those entry-level positions like customer service roles, you know, office administration, you know, types of roles like that. They're really getting a lot of applicants because people can apply now from all across Canada to the same role if it's remote, of course.
Yeah. So, you know, you're literally the perfect person to be talking to this audience because a lot of our listeners are multi-passionate, multi-hyphenate generalists, weirdos, rebels, like don't fit neatly inside a box, have a little bit of a chip on their shoulder, you know, want to try different things, maybe didn't feel like they were a right fit in a lot of places. So like, what, what kind of advice do you give to people right now in this economy, when they have that sort of that, that, that, you know, they need a purpose. They need, they need to be passion driven. Yeah. I think when you're, when you're really looking at the job application process right now is the best time to really lean into your uniqueness, your superpowers, you know, what sets you apart. You know, the hiring managers are going to see the same resume, like that looks very similar from like 10 different people. And if you can really showcase your uniqueness and what sets you apart, that's really what's going to stand out.
So an example I have is I have a client who is a death doula. So she helps people transition into the next life. And that is typically I would like two years ago, I would say no, we're not going to include that on your resume. Like, that doesn't make sense. It's not relevant. And she was applying to sales roles. But now we actually incorporated that into her resume and into her story because it's a huge part of showing how she can really relate to people on a different level. relate to people on a different level. And so, you know, if you have two sales resumes that both are very similar, but this one person has this really strong empathy that she brings from, you know, a different certification and something different that she does, and she's able to, you know, really relate to people from all different walks of life, you now start to see a difference between these two sales resumes that are almost exactly the same.
And so really diving into, you know, what are those things outside of work that you can leverage? Like someone else I know does, you know, triathlons, you know, different things like that, that showcase that, you know, they, they have drive and dedication, you know, anything that you can think of, that's really going to set yourself apart and, and explaining why, like, it's not good enough to just put like, you know, triathlon finisher, right? You need to explain why that's important. You know, what is it about the triathlon that you think would be beneficial to this, this role or this position or to who you are. And I think that's really where you're starting to see the differences, especially with recruiters. Um, I was talking to a recruiter recently and he said the most frustrating thing he finds is when he sees a whole bunch of resumes and none of them say why they want to apply to this position, right?
None of them have drawn the line from A to B. They're all just like, you know, the same, the same resume that they're submitting to everything. They're not like, this is why I'd be the best fit for this job. This is why I'm applying to this job. This is what sets me apart, right? That's what he wanted to see. So I thought that was quite interesting. And is what's the best way to articulate that or where is the best? Is it like in the email body? Is it the cover letter? Is it within the resume? Like, how do you do that? Yeah, I mean, it's really, there's no rules in terms of where to include that because that is a different, that is a different take than it used to, you know, than two years ago. So definitely the cover letter is an easy place to include that. But I, but for this, um, for the sales client that I was sharing, we put it right in the resume.
You know, we put it right in that top paragraph because we're showcasing what sets her apart and why she would be the best fit for this position. And so instead of just, you know, having a top paragraph that's like four sentences that are pretty general about why you'd be the best fit, this one was very targeted using, you know, her empathy and her other experience to showcase why she would be the best person for this position. Because typically hiring managers do look at that resume first, and they kind of, you know, at that point they decide, you know, is this a keeper or one to get rid of?
And then they'll review the cover letter after, you know, maybe look up LinkedIn. Um, but they're not looking at all the documents for all 500 people who are applying to the role. Right. So that first part of your resume is the most important real estate. Cause that's really where they're looking first. of your resume is the most important real estate because that's really where they're looking first. Interesting. And in terms of like, I'm assuming employers are still using ATS systems, the automated, I don't know what it stands for.
Applicant tracking systems. Yeah. Applicant tracking system. Can you tell I'm not a recruiter or in recruitment or in this field at all? And nor do I use them, by the way. So applicant tracking systems, I'm assuming are just like being used more than ever, probably. Is that true? Yeah. So I mean, there's like hundreds of applicant tracking systems out there. So it's hard to say, you know, what, you know, some of the features are. But what I've noticed is generally speaking, applicant tracking systems aren't eliminating people without a human eye. So typically the resumes go into the applicant tracking system and then the human, the recruiter is doing this keyword searching. And then they're doing that searching kind of based on the keywords that they put in the job posting and then finding which resumes pop up based on that. I mean, that's not a hard and fast rule because a lot of ATSs out there do their own thing and who knows what they all do. But if you have like, you know, specific qualifications, like it requires a bachelor's degree and you don't have one, then yes, it can eliminate you. But typically it's, you know, the hiring manager who's doing the searching. Right. Okay. Yeah.
So, I mean, education is probably still the number one thing. Is it still the number one thing that, um, that businesses are looking for these days in terms of, you know, um, like qualifications, like basic qualifications? Um, I think it depends on the company, honestly. I've seen, um, you would be surprised by the amount of executive resumes I've written that don't even have an education section on the resume because they don't have any education. They have a high school degree that they diploma that they have from like 25 years ago. And so it's really not as important as it would have been, you know, 10 years ago. Education was everything. I think now once you hit 10 years into your career, you're really they're really looking at that experience over your education. Because like, for example, a client of mine is in software engineering. And he had a Bachelor of Software Engineering from like 1985.
Like, that's not even relevant. Yeah, not even relevant anymore. not even relevant yeah it's like not even relevant anymore the systems he was working on in school don't even exist so yeah so I think that I mean I think education is important but I also don't think that it's everything you know it's it's I'm not a huge post-secondary person um I think that you know you have a bachelor's degree it's good enough you don't need to go back for too much more unless it's something you're really excited about but um I think I mean you know, if you have a bachelor's degree, it's good enough. You don't need to go back for too much more unless it's something you're really excited about. But I think, I mean, if you're applying to schools, like universities, if you're applying to banks, any of those more traditional fields, they're going to be looking at your education.
But if you're looking at, you know, more new age organizations, you know, anything in software, you know, any of those companies that are more forward thinking the education is definitely less important interesting okay well that's definitely new um canadian job market like you know it how would you describe it right now i would say it's competitive um i would say that the typically people you know, the stats were that you would get a new job in three to six months. And I would say that, I mean, these are my own stats that I'm just making up, like the ones that I'm sharing that are updated. I would say now most of my clients are seeing more like six to nine months just because it's taking because the competition is higher. It's taking longer because you have to apply to more jobs. And networking is just so much more important than it was, because if you know someone in an organization who can share your name with the hiring manager, it's just and they have a thousand applications to go through.
You can bet that your name is going to go to the top of that list because that saves them a whole lot of time in doing that searching. because that saves them a whole lot of time in doing that searching. So really leveraging your network and seeing what's out there is, is a great way to kind of move that forward. Okay, yep. Good advice. So the the sort of like the hidden job market is alive and well. I'm seeing a lot of people complaining, like I'm hearing from a lot of job seekers that they seem to be like rejected almost immediately. Like they'll submit their resume. And I've had a few clients for whom this was true. They'd submit their resume and like within like an hour, they'd have a rejection, even though they felt like they qualified for the job. Do you think is that, that sounds pretty automated to me, would you say? Yeah, definitely. I would say that some sort of, you know, applicant tracking system, you know, I don't know, I'm not an applicant tracking system expert, but I just like, that makes me wonder, I wonder if they hit a limit, like they're like, oh, we're only going to accept 300 applications.
I don't know, this is just conjecture, but you know, maybe they hit like, you know, they're only going to accept this many. I don't know, this is just conjecture, but, you know, maybe they hit like, you know, they're only going to accept this many. And if you're not in the top 300, then they just automatically reject you or they have specific, sometimes they, you can set up an applicant tracking system to have specific like formula or keywords that they look for. And if you don't have that, then they just don't even bother. And that might be, you know, the hiring manager's way to whittle down these like, you know, 500 applicants down to something more manageable. But I don't I'm not 100% sure about that. Right. So probably worth applying early, applying often and reapplying with new information if necessary.
And hiring someone like you probably to help out with that. Yeah, definitely. I mean, you know, a lot of my clients, when they have an updated resume and one that they can tailor to the applications, they do start to see more interviews. Of course. Yeah. There's any specific format that people should be, you know, either wary of or like a best practice that you'd recommend? I mean, the chronological format is typically the best format. And that's where you have, a little description at the top, a list of maybe your skills, and then your work education in reverse chronological order. So most recent first, obviously, because nobody cares really, but what you did 20 years ago, that's typically the best format.
I do see some people who use a functional format. A functional format is where you front load all of your skills and then you just list your work experience and don't actually describe it. And that can be a concern. Hiring managers do tend to find that one a little bit concerning because they wonder if a you know, a client is, you know, trying to hide something, hide, you know, a career gap or hide the fact that maybe they didn't do this job for 10 years and they've done something else for the past 10 years and they're trying to hide that. And so they really want to see, you know, accomplishments under each work experience rather than just like all the accomplishments at the top because that way they can know that okay this is the past five years that they've done this you know really great work or um you know or it wasn't in their previous job you know maybe six years ago but they can see that it's recent and not something that you're trying to hide so i would definitely steer away from that functional format and steer towards that chronological format even though sometimes the functional format is a little easier. Yeah. And are people are, would you say like employers or hiring managers are more willing to sort of like accept people with gaps in their resumes or is it still like a major bias? I'm none of my clients. I mean, everyone has a gap in their resume now, like really COVID, um, created lots of gaps in resumes.
And so I don't think that that hasn't really been a problem for a lot of my clients. Um, you know, I think the key is in an interview that you can explain why there's a gap, you know, what, what was the, what was happening there? I think the bigger issue, and I don't want to say issue because I don't think it's a gap, you know, what, what was the, what was happening there? I think the bigger issue, and I don't want to say issue because I don't think it's an issue, but like people feel like it's an issue is when they maybe took 10 years off to parent their kids or whatever, you know, be the home manager. And there's ways around that, you know, like for some of my clients who have done that, we actually add that in as a work experience. I worked with a client who had a husband who had a very severe, you know, medical issue. And so she took five years off and she was caring for him.
And she was like, now I have nothing to put on my resume. And I was like, this is absolutely a job. Just because you don't get paid for it doesn't mean you don't have work experience. Because she was planning all his medical appointments, him to these appointments you know advocating for his needs um you know caring for him as needed doing everything around the home you know so we just created a job around that um and we we described it in the same way that you would a regular job and it just showcases that you, there are transferable skills from those times in your life when you might need to, you know, take care of kids or do something different or go on a, go on a one year sabbatical and travel the world.
I mean, there's lots of things that you can bring out of those experiences that give you more of that life experience. Yeah. Awesome. Okay. So let's go back to the the the like drawing a thread like the the branding the storytelling side of this uh do you have any clients who how are just like had like like a really diverse like wacky kind of job experience and like tell me like how you actually helped them create a story out of this yeah I mean my own story is like a good example, but also like I worked with another client who was laid off like four times in three years. And so how do you turn that into a story that doesn't make it look like they're jumping around so much? And then same with myself, you know, having 32 jobs, how do you create a resume that doesn't look like I can't make up my mind about anything.
And so it's really about, about getting creative and sometimes having multiple resumes. So when I was creating my own resume, when I was applying for jobs, I had different resumes for different focuses. So I'd like, you know, if I was doing customer service, then I would have one resume that focused only on the jobs that were specific to that role. And then, you know, if I wanted to do something, I mean, I did weird things. So if I wanted to apply to be like a rock climbing instructor, because that's one of the things I did, I would have a resume specific for that with the different jobs that I had where I like taught rock climbing and like, you know, whatever. So there were multiple different threads and I just like picked and choosed which resume fit based on the application that I was applying for.
So that's a really great way. I mean, I still do that. I have a resume focused one. I have a workshop focused one and I have a mental health focused resume and they're all a little bit different in how they describe my work experience and how they describe, you know, what my skills are. And so same thing for this client who was laid off, you know, several times. they describe, you know, what my skills are. And so same thing for this client who was laid off, you know, several times. There's, you know, I also had another client who had like 10 jobs in five years, like it was wild. And how do you turn that into a resume that a hiring manager isn't going to think is red flags. And so some ways to do it is to combine roles together.
So if you had some really similar positions, like this one person was a recruiter at three different companies and they were all, you know, they were one after the other, but there was just a lot of layoffs involved in there. And so instead of, you know, listing them each separately, we combined them together into one role and listed the different companies so that because the job description, the accomplishments were essentially the same. And, um, it showed that he had been a recruiter for like a year and a half instead of showing like, you know, three, six months stints or whatever. Um, so trying to get, just getting creative about it and remember that there's like, there are resume rules, but that doesn't mean that you can't break them. Right. That's why we're here. That's why we're weirdos at work. Let's break the rules. Um, so, you know, if you have, if you have two jobs that are the same, just put them together. Like you don't need to separate them or, you know, I've seen so many resumes where they list three jobs and then all, all the bullet points are exactly the same. You're like, who wants to read that? Nobody wants to read that just as much as you don't want to write it.
So, you know, put those together. They don't need to be separated. And, you know, describing, you can sometimes take the opportunity to describe any red flags in your cover letter. So for this individual who'd been laid off a bunch of times, you know, there's an opportunity for her to explain in her cover letter, you know, this isn't me jumping around. This was, you know, experienced multiple layoffs and was able to secure jobs really quickly, which can show your determination, your innovation, you know, your ability to network, you know, just showcasing those skills and explaining to a hiring manager why, you know, why it's not a red flag. not a red flag. Right. Okay. Gotcha. And in terms of like the, like a lot of the time I have clients coming to me and they're like, they've like you, they're very diverse in what they've done a lot of the time because they have many different interests and, or, you know, failed fast. You know what I mean? They're like, well, don't like that one. Don't like that one.
Don't like that one. What do I like? And I think that's the whole point. It's like, what, what drew you to that in the first place? Was it like, what, what drew you to that in the first place? Was it like, in some cases, obviously it's going to be like money. That's important for a lot of people, survival. But if it's not survival, usually we have some options, you know, so there has to be something, you know, within that, that drew you there.
So what is that thread that we can pull out? How do you do work with clients on that? Is that something that you can incorporate into your work? Yeah, absolutely. I'm just currently reading the book, How to Be Everything, a guide for those who still don't know what they want to be when they grow up by Emily Wapnick. She has a really great, they have a really great TED talk that we can link in the show notes. And it's all about, you know, people who are the term that they, that they created was multi-potentialite. So someone who has lots of different, you know, passions or maybe changes their mind a lot. Hello, that's me. You know, but, but the interesting thing about this book is that they talk about how I'm just trying to articulate. Think about my thoughts here. They talk about how, you know, in the world, it's it's expected to stick with one thing.
Right. You're going to get a job and you're going to stick with it. And then if you if you do move, it's going to be in the same industry or it's going to be a similar job. if you do move, it's going to be in the same industry or it's going to be a similar job. But one thing that I found really interesting about this concept is that these people who are multi-potentialites might finish a job sooner. So like, what is the end for you? Why did it end? So for me, like when I think about when I, after reading this book and then thinking back onto my experience, I was always like, oh, what's wrong with me? I can't make a decision. I can't stick to one thing. You know, everyone else has this like decision of what they want to be and they're sticking to it.
And I can't do that. Like, why is this a problem for me? And this book really talks about how, um, how, you know, what is there's, there's obviously something you get out of it and however you end it is, is how you want to end it. So like I would, I would master something. I would get really good at a job and then I would get bored and be like, okay, well that was cool, but now I don't want to do that anymore and move on. And so that was me completing something just in a different way, in a non-traditional way, rather than completing something in a traditional way where you just stick with it forever. And so really thinking about, you know, what are those things that you're getting out of these, out of these experiences and knowing that just because you change your mind or want to move on to something different, or you learned everything you need to know about that. And now you're ready to try something different. That's not a problem, right? Like that's okay. You can do that and still have a really fulfilling career.
I've worked with lots of people who are like, you know, I'm so concerned about my resume because, you know, I've jumped around different industries and I'm not, you know, a specialist in anything. And the world wants a specialist, you know, that's what the world wants. That's what everyone thinks. The world wants a specialist. But what I've noticed is that a lot of these people who are more generalists or Jack or Jill of all trades, whatever you want to call it, they tend to be able to secure jobs in many different areas because they can take their skills, everything they've learned in one industry, they can bring it into another industry, bring new perspectives and new ideas. Then they learn everything they want about that industry.
And they're like, okay, now let's go implement this into a new industry and then really bring that innovation. And so I think that, um, I don't really remember what the initial question was because I just like talking about something I'm excited about, but I think that is really, um, you know, what people need to focus on, right? Like being who, being truly who you want to be and leveraging that and not worrying about, you know, the world saying you need to be a specialist or you need to choose one thing because you don't need to choose one thing. No. Okay. It's about building the story and knowing who you are and why you're engaging in certain things and really trying to understand yourself in order to build that thread through all of your stories, all of your different work experiences.
And then eventually what you did and what I did is like, cause my, my, not quite as dramatic in terms of like 32, but like, you know, I did do quite a few things that are very different, like very, very like all over the place kind of stuff. But figuring out why I was doing that took a long time. And once I did, it actually helped me figure out what I wanted to do and that what I wanted to do that I could actually do for a while, probably, you know, and similar story for you, I think. Yeah. I mean, I think being in business is a great place for people who are multi-passionate because, you know, you can make changes, you know, every day is a little bit different. It's often not, you know, when you get into a job, it can sometimes be exactly the same every day, depending on the type of job you're in.
And so being in business is just an easy way to kind of make your own career and make it what you want. And when you get bored, you make a change, right? Like you can hire someone to do that thing you mastered and train them on it and then try to do something different, right? Like there's definitely opportunities there. Definitely. Yeah. Awesome. So I can just, I'm sensing the time here, but this has been a really, really awesome conversation. I hope this resonated with a lot of people. So practical, your advice.
And we're going to make sure that everyone knows how to get in touch with you in the show notes, the website, LinkedIn, you know, everything, your podcast as well. And I think I'm coming on your podcast. We recorded some point. When's that going to, when's that happening? I don't sure. I'd have to look. I didn't look. I don't remember these types of things. Okay. So I'm going to be on Steph's podcast. Steph's coming on our podcast.
And I guess finally, do you have any like words of inspiration for folks who are kind of going through, you know, a job search or, you know, feel like they're a bit of a misfit and trying to like put all the puzzle pieces together? Yeah. I think there's a quote from that book. I was sharing how to be everything by Emily Wapnick. And it says, what would your life be like if you gave yourself permission to be everything you want it to be? So I think that's been like a really big message in my own life recently is just like, stop fighting, you know, the parts of yourself that are multi-passionate or the parts of yourself that want to do these, you know, other things, and just really embrace it and, and really start to dive into who you are.
Because the people who come to me who are typically really, like confident and authentic, they tend to land jobs quicker than people who are like, you know, more like, Oh, I'm not really sure I don't want to, I don't want to talk about myself, or I don't want to share that because that's too much or whatever.
You know, those people tend to struggle a little more in their job search because they're not, they're not portraying their full self and they're not portraying themselves in a confident way. So really just, you know, embracing that authenticity, embracing who you are and just really showing up as yourself, you know, whatever that means and whatever you're comfortable sharing. I think that is the big key. That's an amazing message to close things out. Thanks so much.
Yeah, thank you for having me. It was great to be here.
Don't forget to stay weird, stay wonderful, and don't stay out of trouble!
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Amy Davies, CEO of HR tech and training firm First30 and author of “A Spark in the Dark” is a specialist in employee onboarding, retention, and outplacement services, having gotten her start at major companies like Unilever, Rogers and Mars/Wrigley.
With her experiences personally and professionally, and armed with knowledge derived from Robert D Hare and other researchers, Amy is spreading awareness on the inconspicuous psychopaths that are found in the workplace.
In this episode we dive into the three types of psychopaths, the best ways to protect yourself, how to identify them and more. Hang on tight, because the "blood hungry" psychopaths aren't the only dangerous ones. Prep your ears for an honest and thought-provoking conversation on the psychopaths found in corporate!
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Stay in touch with Amy:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/daviesamy/ Instagram: @amydaviesfirst30 https://first30ready.com/Read the book:
Without Conscience by Robert D Hare, Ph.DScript:
When you feel too good around someone or they're coming on really strong, stop and say, why do I feel so connected with this new person in my life so quickly?
Welcome to Weirdos in the Workplace, the podcast that celebrates authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose in our world of work. And I'm here with Amy Davies. Amy, say hello.
Hello. Great to be here.
Very happy for you to be here. Amy is the CEO of First30, the author of A Spark in the Dark. She's a specialist in employee onboarding, retention, and outplacement services, having gotten a start at major companies like Unilever, Rogers, and Mars Wrigley. Amy also has a new book coming out soon called What Employees Want, Proven Strategies to Attract, Retain, and Engage Talent. And she's the proud owner of a beautiful Doberman named Riker.
Yes. And as I was telling you, that is the most important role that I play in life. I'm really his servant. That's basically how it works. Dobermans are beautiful creatures.
Oh,'re very nice very nice how old is Riker tell me more
Yeah well he's three and a half and for any of your Star Trek fans out there I'm a big Star Trek fan I maybe will hold back from calling myself a Trekkie but I do I am a bit obsessed and there is a character William Riker in Star Trek and so and he's universally liked and a very compelling character and he's the second in command so he's considered number one to Jean-Luc Picard so that's why right that's where Riker's name comes from.
Sorry, I'm nerding out now, but I can't. So do you see like, like cosplaying in your future with this? I don't, you know, I don't get too into it. It's actually something my son and I, we got into watching Star Trek together and I find there's so many lessons for kids to learn about compassion, about different societies and acceptance. And there's a lot of moral, great moral lessons in that show. And I think when you only see it from the perspective that it's about like weird aliens, we get a totally different view, but there's a very, there's is so ahead of its time as well it's so so interesting so highly recommend i never really watched the series but i loved the movies when i was a kid star trek movies like next generation or i can't remember there's a few of them but yeah yeah anyways i'm not a big trekkie myself but if you ever get into it, we'll talk.
Yeah, okay. Yeah. I guess we will, I'm sure. Okay, so we are on a podcast. This podcast is called Weirdos in the Workplace. So before we kick things off, I'd love to know, Amy, you know, is have you ever felt like a weirdo or a rebel, or just not quite fitting in at some point in your life? And tell me about that.
Well, one of the reasons that I started my own business and always knew that I was kind of designed to start my own business was that I never felt like I could just go tow the company line. That was just never me. I never enjoyed being part of an in group where there was people that were in and then there was people that were out. And I could never go along with a company strategy just because the company said this is our strategy. Even if I could put a smile on my face and move forward, I really struggled with it internally when I wasn't bought in to what the decisions the business was making. And the biggest thing for me is that I found and wrote a great book about this called Think, Do, Say. And, you know, companies saying a lot of things that I knew from the inside that they weren't actually doing. So I never felt like I fit in to companies, even though I really liked the people I worked with, I really enjoyed it. But I kind of had an entire career where I always felt like a little bit of an outsider. And much like HR, it's your job to put the third party hat on. I had a role in businesses that required that I was almost I had to be objective in my role. So I actually had permission to sit a little outside and comment on what was going on inside. And that felt very comfortable for me.
So yeah, to answer your question, basically my whole career, I felt like even though I presented like an insider, and I'm sure many of us go through that, we are saying all the right things and we're smiling and nodding, but inside we're feeling dramatically different. What led you? Was there like a moment or a culmination of moments that led you to starting your own business? Well, I worked for another entrepreneur fairly early on in my career. We had a complicated relationship, but I really did admire aspects of his business, of his business acumen. And I learned so much from him. And I did really well at the company. And it was the first time I realized that I can do this, like I could actually, I'm not a salesperson by, you know, the traditional view of what a salesperson is. But I realized that I was really good at building relationships. And I got him a ton of new clients. And I thought, oh, my gosh, if I can make him all this money, certainly I could do this for myself one day. And that started me off on the path of becoming an entrepreneur. So while I say we had a complicated relationship, I really appreciate what he taught me. I learned so much from him. And so I am very grateful for that experience. But it is and I'm learning now as a business owner, how difficult it is to run a business. So I can empathize more with what he was going through when I worked for him on in the very early stages of building his business. Yeah. And I know we've both worked for like inspirational bosses, we've both had, you know, not so inspirational bosses, probably or people that we've worked with or people we've, you know, friends who've worked with people, you know, and, and that kind of leads us to, I think our topic. Great segue. Great segue.
Just for the folks listening, you know, Amy and I had a chat probably what it was like a few weeks ago maybe a month ago um and you know talking about like what are we going to talk about on the podcast and amy brought to me this idea of you know something that was a little bit different and i thought it was amazing and all amy i'd like to like what how did this you you thought i would want to talk about my something to do with my actual products and services but no I suggested we discuss this book called Without Conscience and it's called Without Conscience the Disturbing World of Psychopaths Who Live Among Us or the Psychopaths Among Us by Robert D. Hare. And he's actually a Canadian. And he's a world-renowned criminal psychologist who is a member of the Order of Canada.
He created the psychopathy checklist, which is widely used in the criminal and judicial system in more countries than just Canada. So for once, we have the leading thinker in a space. And so my life has been touched by a psychopath. And I think most people's lives have, I believe, I'm going to say I believe that I lived with a psychopath for eight years of my adult life. And when I moved away from that situation, I really felt strongly that I had something went terribly wrong. It was an awful situation. And I thought, how can I protect myself? And I think like many of the people who are your listeners, they've had an experience where they've worked with someone, maybe it's someone in their personal life, but maybe they've worked in a place, and I've had this experience too, sadly, where they feel that they are dealing with someone they can't reason with, who acts out in anger, who treats them really poorly, no matter how they change their behavior, that person stays the same. And I, and I think that my intent with this, having this conversation today, is that I want to do what Dr. Hare is aiming to do. And that's to spread awareness about psychopaths, because I find I present I do corporate talks as well. And I'll talk about psychopaths during these talks and what I've learned from dr hair and there's always giggles in the room always and i want us to get to a point where it doesn't feel like someone getting up there talking about extraterrestrials uh it's about someone getting up there talking about a real problem dr hair and there have been estimates that are higher um but he talks about maybe 1% of the North American population being non murderous psychopaths. But there are estimates that raise it to about four to 5%, with five to 15%, showing some like who are borderline. And so this these are people are murderers. Is that what you're saying?
No borderline psychopaths. Okay, gotcha. We can get into it in more detail. But the way to think about it is that there's a very small percentage of psychopaths who are actually blood hungry, like Ted Bundy or Jeffrey Dahmer. That's often the visualization we have of these people or the people like, Dr. Hare talks about it a lot in his book, Hannibal Lecter, right? I wish that what we could do is take all of these, like, especially in the media, they create these monstrosities of people, these evil geniuses who are murderous and compelling, remove that from your mind. That is not the reality. These people, when you dig under the surface, are very, very base people. They're very boring if you remove all the bells and whistles. But I do think that we have to realize that this person is someone we might get on the elevator with every day. There's someone we'll like bump into at the grocery store. We might meet them on a Tinder date, right? So we have to be very careful. And there are ways that we can protect ourselves from these people as well that I think will be really important to talk about today. But I thought it would be helpful to talk about today. But I want I thought it would be helpful to talk about how Robert Hare defined psychopaths, but also what their brain activity looks like, because this is not just a airy, there's nothing airy fairy about it. It's grounded in research and science. And so I thought it would be helpful to maybe pull out a quote from his book, if that's okay.
Psychopaths are social predators who charm, manipulate and ruthlessly plow their way through life, leaving selfishly take what they want, and do as they please, violating social norms, and expectations without the slightest sense of guilt or regret. So that's how he talks about what a psychopath is. It's important for us to recognize, though, they've done tests on the minds of people who are psychopaths. And what they find from a neurological perspective, is that the for our brains, we have the amygdala and that lights up when exciting things happen. And we you know, we get it's our kind of reaction to rewards. But in a psychopath, this lights up far more strongly in response to reward stimulus. Oh, interesting. Yes, but there's more. There's the prefrontal cortex, and this is responsible for empathy, the regulation of our emotion, emotions promoting pro-social behavior. And there is reduced connectivity between the prefrontal cortex and the amygdala in people who are psychopaths. So your rewards are going crazy and the lighting up and not connecting as well with the prefrontal cortex. There was some really interesting brain science that he included in that book, actually around like the left and right brain and how they regulate emotions as well.
That was, I thought, very fascinating. I would highly recommend folks to read this book if you're finding this conversation interesting right now, because you'll see that it goes so, so deep. It's just like Alice going right down that rabbit hole right um and storytelling that he he produces as well so many stories about psychopaths and many stories about psychopaths in the workplace which I found really interesting um it was written oh sorry about that oh go ahead yeah it was written in a time before trigger warnings but I want to put a trigger warning, like huge red flag. It was a really hard book to read. And I have a headache right now. And I think it's because I spent the weekend finishing my research for this podcast. And it's, yeah, I'm not gonna lie. Like when I first started listening to the audiobook, because I'm not going to lie. Like when I, when I first started listening to the audio book, cause I'm an audio book girl, I was like, what did I do? This is, it was really hard. It was hard to read. And it's especially hard to think all of us have a little bit of trauma probably going on, you know, and it is a little bit triggering, but if you can push past it, you know, really, really worthwhile. Yeah, it is worthwhile, because being aware is your first line of defense. And, and I'll give you the example, okay, because these are people who are, they mimic the behavior that gets them what they want, even though they don't really understand. And it's described in the book, I don't know if you remember this, and correct me if I'm getting the quote wrong. But they know the words, not the music.
Yes. And so they're learning over time. And that's why they're able to be so charismatic and charming at the beginning. And they do. And so what I do now, is if you are engaged with a new person in a workplace, imagine, and I want you to build this picture for yourself, you go into a workplace, imagine, and I want you to build this picture for yourself. You go into a workplace and there's someone that's super helpful. Not everyone that's very helpful is going to be a psychopath. And so we have to be careful. But it's that person who's like, if you have any issues, I'm the person to come to. I'm going to help you out. Don't, you know, don't get too close to so and so because they're blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? don't you know don't get too close to so-and-so because they're blah blah blah blah right so this is the person who and they make oh wow i your experience is just incredible someone i know knows you and they said this and and you start feeling really connected with this person they're flattering you they're love bombing you they're being your support system they're telling you like little secrets about what's going on to help you understand your colleagues.
They are doing exactly that. They're love bombing, right? So when you feel too good around someone, or they're coming on really strong, stop and say, why do I feel so connected with this new person in my life so quickly? It's so hard. Yeah. Like, like, I'm like, I kind of do all of those things, you know, but I'm, I'm definitely not a psychopath. Like, after reading the book, I'm like, I can definitely self diagnose myself as certainly not a psychopath. Thank God. But yeah, you and I met, I felt really good when we met and I uh you and I spoke but I never felt like you were coming on too strong you were like let's do this let's get on to yeah right but I never felt like you were trying to skip phases in our friendship right you know I didn't feel like you all of a sudden wanted to be my best friend. And when we look at romantic relationships, and I know we're here to talk about the workplace today, but I think it's important also, since we're on the topic to talk about this. Imagine in a romantic relationship, there's a really great book called Women Who Love Psychopaths. And they are I can't actually I might have that title wrong. So I might come back to that. Women Yes, it's called Women Who Love Psychopaths is by Sandra Brown. And she explains that what psychopaths do when they're entering a new relationship is they throw out an empathy hook. And by what I mean by that, and what she means by that, more importantly, is they are testing you to see if you're the type of person they can manipulate. And I was this person. And this is what I learned from researching all of this in the workplace. And I was the fixer. I was the mother. I was the person you could go to. And I'd be like, oh, my gosh, that person did that to you. I'm so sorry. Let me help you fix everything. Right. I never would ask you, Aaron, person did that to you. I'm so sorry.
Let me help you fix everything. Right. I never would ask you, Aaron, why did that? Why do you think that person said that to you is, you know, sounds like you might have been blah, blah, blah, right? I was not that person. You weren't the skeptic. The psychopath does not want a skeptic, right? And so I was that nurturer and that, you know, helper, and I thought I could change everybody. And that is why I used to say to my friends, I'm like, I drive men crazy. But it wasn't that at all. I was just psychopaths just loved me because, from what I can tell, just because I was that person, and I was falling for all of those empathy hooks, right? And so we want to be careful that we're asking those questions of people, or even to ourselves in a workplace, let's say, if they're talking about a lot of conflict all the time, and talking about how they're the victim, because psychopaths are always the victim, they're never at fault in their minds. So we have to really start asking ourselves, why are, why is there so much issues with this person? Why do they seem to have an issue with everyone, right? Well, and, you know, especially in the workplace today, when being vulnerable is so valued now, I think more than it has been before. That, you know, we have to buffer ourselves with some kind of armor against, you know, being taken advantage of, right? Yeah, I think it's amazing that you're that kind of person, right? That I think that you, you know, that you're, you're so generous and loving and wanting to protect people and, you know, wanting to, you know, to give yourself.
And it really sucks that there are people out there that take advantage of them. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I was it something like 20% up to 20% of CEOs, or there was a very high percentage that I'm recalling of, of leadership, people in leadership positions positions i don't know if it was 20 i never know how accurate those stats are because how would they actually know who is this i mean based maybe on their behavior but i would even think that dr hair would say it's impossible to give an estimate but what he what he does say and what is widely known is they're attracted if there's a well they're attracted it's like a drinking hole, they're attracted to it, right? So if there's a way, if investment banking is a great way to, white collar crime is huge among psychopaths because they, you know, look at Bernie Madoff. I've never diagnosed him myself, nor could I, nor am I qualified to, but I'm sure there's widely held beliefs that he is a psychopath. Politics attracts psychopaths because now they can control lawyers. And it's still going to always be a very small percentage.
So I don't want to cast any shade on these professions. But these are people that like power and control the military, police. Right. like power and control, the military, police, right? So if we think of those types of areas where they can be seen as important, have power and walk away with a big wad of cash all at the same time, that is what they're attracted to. Yeah, and these are the successful psychopaths that he talks about. Yeah, so these are folks that, you know, are living fairly normal lives um probably only being like the only checks and balances that they have in terms of regulating their behavior is um you know the transparency of situations and you know the i mean the law they probably try to get away with whatever they can really but right yes and you're absolutely right to bring that up as like quote unquote, successful psychopaths, because of course they, there's many of them in the criminal justice system as well that aren't succeeding, but these might be your cousin or even your brother or sister. Often it's uncovered when there's financial issues. So if there's an inheritance, suddenly the psychopath and the person is unmasked, even if they've kept it under wraps a little bit until that time. So you see when people's backs up or up against the wall. I thought it might be helpful to talk about the different types of psychopaths and their behavior in the workplace.
This is based on a book that was co authored by Dr. Hare, called snakes in suits, and another person called named Paul Babiak. So if you're okay with that, I might jump into the different types of psychopaths in the workplace, because what I hope people think is like, oh, my gosh, I know this person. And now they'll know that they kind of have to protect themselves. Because what I like I said, I've included this information in some talks that I give. And I find that people do the normal giggle when I start talking about it. And I talk about some of the characteristics of a psychopath, some of their behaviors and the implications. And all of a sudden, it gets very quiet in the room, and you can hear a pin drop. And after my presentation, people will gingerly come up to me and say, I think I worked with someone like this, or I think this person might be. And I even had a woman call me, I don't even know how she got my phone number, bawling a week after a presentation that she had colleagues that were harassing her, and she felt they fit into this profile as well. So the different types of psychopaths that you'll encounter in the workplace, as described in Snakes in Suits, the con, and they use their voice to manipulate you.
They're really great at storytelling. They mix falsehoods with truth um and they get people to do what they want kind of by tricking them and conning them um and then there's the bully i don't know if you you don't have to share i don't know if you ever think of someone like that comes to your mind when you think of that the bully um i don't have no the con the con yeah for sure i've had folks in my history that that i could have definitely qualified as the con 100 yeah the smooth talker um the bully is kind of a build on the con they start off as a con but when they don't get what they want. They really will escalate and use dominance and they'll, you know, they might yell. And I've always had a huge disdain for yelling in the workplace. There is no reason to yell at a person in the workplace unless you're yelling to them to get out of the way of a flying object, a falling object. A person that is yelling, in my opinion, is a problem person in the workplace. And that is something that needs to be addressed immediately.
And I think that's something that employers can do right away to address any issues. I'm not saying someone who yells is always a psychopath by any means, but that might be your first clue. There's an issue with that employee. clue there's an issue with that employee. The puppet master is the most impressive of the three types. They have all the characteristics of a con and a bully, but they use others to do their dirty work for them. They recruit people, they're often referred to as flying monkeys to send their messages for them. But they're the most prolific of the three types. Prolific in what way? They have all of the characteristics of the other. So they're not just, you know, someone who's a con, they might just have that kind of capability. There's the bully who has to go to yelling, the puppet master may have more mastery over their their behavior than the other two. And I would argue that they would be the most dangerous because they're just highly skilled in manipulating people. Probably, would they be more difficult to identify in some cases as well? Absolutely. And there's so and I write about it in a spark in the dark as well. I write about how people I don't call them psychopaths, because I don't know, there's, there are people who are bullies. And psychopaths are always narcissists.
But narcissists who are far higher percentage of the population are not always, narcissists are not always psychopaths, but they are also very difficult personalities to deal with. So you may not be able to distinguish between the two. I think it would be really hard for any lay person who's not trained to be able to identify them. And I think it's even Dr. Hare talks about falling for psychopaths, cons, he's not immune either. And I say that I do all of these things to protect myself. I am not immune. In fact, I started a friendship with a woman who met with her daughters and, you know, went out and gave them all kinds of career advice. We had dinner together. It was revealed that she was a horrible con artist who had stolen money from refugees and treated them off terribly. There was articles about her in newspapers. And she had all this, she had committed white collar crime. It was awful. And I fell for her charm for sure. That was a long time ago before I got really into this. But it shocked me. Fortunately, I didn't get too close to her because everything was revealed very soon after our kind of friendship began, but it terrified me to think what the potential could have been. Had I not had that not been revealed to me. I feel like I must, I think I must have a very strong sense of self-preservation. feel like I must I think I must have a very strong sense of self-preservation um and I I feel like I've got like a like a like a radar for you know nonsense people yes like people who are like I'm like this doesn't add up you know or whatever but I also like to make sure I give people the benefit of the doubt so you know for me it's like what's that Maya Angelou quote?
When people show you who they are, believe them. Yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, yeah, don't I wouldn't give people that many chances if they're doing something or demonstrating some real problematic behavior. That's for sure. That's good. And I wish so many more of us were like that. I don't think things would be as much of a mess. And it's really interesting, because in this book, they talk about the fact that people who are psychopaths in the workplace, they perform very well in terms of they rate very high in communication skills, charisma and visioning, but they rate really low in performance and productivity. Oh, interesting. Yet they still get promoted because they're so charming, right? And they have this bullish behavior that makes them seem like they really care about the business. So I wrote about that a little bit in Spark and why these people get promoted. They're just really good at managing up. And upward. Yes. I learned that actually, I learned that from a few people I, I, you know, that is that is teachable. By the way, I can teach this. I feel upward on your girl. Oh, wow. Well, you know, it's no, that could be a good thing, because you're so good at managing to like down, right? And you're actually taking care of the people who report up into you. Well, I feel like it's, it's a matter of trying being okay with trying new things, you know, but it's a little bit different than what we're talking about. Anyways, that's a bit of a bunny trail. But yeah, the classic failing upward where, you know, and there have been so many executives that I've spoken to that I'm, you know, they can't do anything without an assistant, right? Without a part of me?
Without an assistant. Without an assistant. And you wonder how in the world they ever were able to get to the position they were in. Because they just, they're completely useless without a wonderful executive assistant who does everything for them. Well, one of the things that psychopaths are really good about is overstating their qualifications and outright lying about them. So one of the things, pieces of advice I have for businesses is do background checks on people. This person that, I mean, I haven't, well, I won't go into too much detail, but there is someone I know 100% who does not have the qualifications they claim to have and the degrees they claim to have publicly on LinkedIn. One of the degrees that they say they have doesn't even exist as a degree. And so if you do a background check on someone and find out that they're lying about these things, and I do, I'm not saying that, yes, there are people who have a criminal past that can make excellent employees. So I do not want to. Yes, there are people who have a criminal past that can make excellent employees.
So I do not want to have them excluded here. But if you do a background check on someone and their qualifications turn out to be untruthful, that is a huge red flag. And I don't think you should hire that person because why are they lying? That's what then that is exactly what a psychopath would do. why are they lying that's what and that is exactly what a psychopath would do yes yeah and see this is one of the reasons why i have a difficult time with references because i have a friend who had a previous she was i'm sure her her ex was a psychopath you know um one of my best friends actually and um what he would do when he was trying to get a job is he just have his mom or his sister's brother's second cousin or whatever, be his reference. You would act like he would, it was complete fabrication. So, you know, as an employer, I'm like, you know, I don't I don't even know that I believe in references, to be honest, prove to me what you can do. Right. And then like demonstrate that you have the skills that you you say you have. Maybe that's just a skeptic in me. But I'm just like, let's let's work together for a month or two and see if you can actually do what you say, you know, you can do and then, you know, if you prove it, then you're good. Well, one of the things that really helps with reference checks now is the fact that most people professionals are on LinkedIn. So someone gives you references and, and they're in a corporate role, and none of their references you can find easily on LinkedIn, then that's can be a red flag. But also, if you don't hear consistencies in their references, like they have three different references who are saying maybe positive things, but entirely different things, then make sure that you're noting that because then those might be a clue that those aren't real references as well. Yeah. Okay.
Good advice. I'm sure you have lots of good advice for higher ed. Well, I do have a list of it. And so we can talk about it at the at the end for sure. But the the thing that I the other thing I want to talk about is the prevalence in the political sphere. There is, you know, a lot of that's one that's identified with psychopaths as well. And I kind of fell back in my chair when I read this over the weekend. I'm not sure if it stood out to you, but a psychopath. So psychopaths project their behavior onto others. So psychopaths project their behavior onto others. So if they're talking about other people accusing them of being a thief or something like that, or a cheater that they cheat on their spouse, that might be a good sign that that person is doing those things. But a psychopath believes that whoever, and this is a quote, whoever is weak is also a sucker. And that kind of stuck with me as well, given all the things that I'm hearing going on in politics right now. It just, it really did stick with me and put me on my heels. One of the other quotes that I found really interesting in the book. And this is again, why I think we need to really drive awareness about this topic. He asked the question, are we unknowingly allowing a society to evolve that is the perfect breeding ground and perhaps a quote unquote, killing field for psychopaths? As our newspapers tell us, this question grows more pressing every day. And this book was written in the 1990s. I would love to see a updated like another edition. But Dr. Hare is, you know, he was born in the 1930s. So I'm not sure he's has it on his plans to write a book. He must have some protégés. He does. If anyone's listening to this and is a protégé of Dr. Hare's, it's time for a new edition of this book. Or better yet, just come on the podcast with me and Amy. Yes. I have a lot of questions for you. I have a lot of questions.
But, you know, here's the thing. And I think a good accompaniment book, and maybe it's one we want to talk about another time, is called The Gift of Fear. And that's by Gavin DeBecker. And it's all about trusting your gut. So a big piece of advice that I would give to anyone listening to this podcast is, yes, be aware of the red flags. Like if you're in a job interview, and the person who is meant to be your manager does all the talking in their interview and if you won a game they won the olympics like it's like they always have to one up you and if they're not listening that can be a really good sign you're dealing with someone who's a problem personality okay i'm not going to say a psychopath but a problem personality that's like right pardon me grade three behavior right exactly yeah we all remember from grade three four whatever right yes we're always stuff I did probably the same thing you know but you grow out of that at some point or most people do you do grow out of that for sure um but the thing that Gavin DeBecker talks about in the gift of fear is that our gut is there for a reason to give us warn early warning signs that something might be wrong and it's surprisingly accurate and we should listen to it so if you feel that you might be in a situation in the workplace because it's what is really frightens me okay i'll give you the example of Robert Durst. You know who Robert Durst is? He was the subject of the documentary called The Jinx. He's from a very wealthy property management company or property owners in New York. And his wife went missing. Years and years ago. Was this one of the stories in the book? It wasn't in the book. It's kind of the book was written before this particular situation concluded and i think we really needed the conclusion in order to really um put a label on what happened right but he was not a ted bundy or jeffrey dahmer he wasn't a murderous person but he had people over the course of his life who, who angered him and who got in his way. And he made sure that he took care of that.
So I don't want to instill fear in people, what I want is for them to protect themselves. But we can become the target of a psychopath without recognizing it. If we're their competition in the workplace, they do what I refer to in a spark in the dark is as a reconnaissance mission. When they meet us, they find out all about us or so they ask us a lot of questions. It's the one time they stop talking about themselves to find out, you know, about you and they're really interested. And then you might say to them, Oh, yeah, I have to pick up drop off my kids at this time and pick them up at that time. Now let's fast forward to a time you become a threat to them professionally. Up until this point, they've been flattering you, they've been on side, they've been so supportive. And then all of a sudden, guess when they're booking meetings, when they know that you have to drop off your kids or pick them up, you know, or they're, so they found that information out. And now they're going to be really good at weaponizing that information and using it against you. And so they that's dangerous for your career. And it's also the emotional baggage you carry, especially if you've had a boss who's a psychopath. And what we do naturally, is we're like, I'm going to change my behavior right like we're normal people you think quote unquote never been so happy for adhd in my life all of that listen yeah i mean this it can be a real benefit to ask questions that other people are afraid too afraid to ask or to call out like the emperors, be the person calling out the emperor, right?
So that's a huge, that can be a huge advantage. But for people who are like me, and started, you know, were very naive, I was very naive. They're, they're gonna put themselves in this position a lot. And it's not your fault. I'm not saying it's your fault. But you're in this situation, and you are trapped, and you've been manipulated by this person, and you think it's you, it's not you, it's them. And we have to stop trying to change our behavior, thinking it's going to change their behavior, because they aren't going to change. And if you if you're dealing with a boss or a colleague you you see as a psychopath psychopath one of the best things to do is you know they say like the the thing that a wolf dislikes the most is an empty field right don't give them anything to work with so people people whose spouses may be this type of person and they're leaving them or people whose bosses or colleagues might be this type of people we have this innate uh need or this and I understand it to justify. Well, no, it wasn't like that. It was like this. Well, no, that didn't happen this way. It happened that way. Just stop talking. Don't respond to their emails. Don't don't engage. Pardon me? The gray rock method. I think I've heard like you want to. Yeah, I've never heard of that. Yeah. So I think that's what you do with narcissists is what I've heard. So folks want to actually Google this method. I believe they call it the gray rock method. Yeah. That's I'm going to look that up because I'm really interested in it, but yeah, don't give them anything to work with any more than you already have.
That can be really helpful to you and it can save you a lot of angst because they're never going to see things from your point of view. They don't care to. They are there to cause harm for them. Like, it's like you're trying to solve the fight. They're trying to have the fight. They like the fight. Or they have a goal, you know, and you're just, you know, one stepping stone, you know, towards the goal or you're not. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So did you want me to talk about some of the suggestions between both or is this something else? Yeah, no, I would love for us to like, kind of finish this up, kind of tie this up with a bow. Sure. A little bit about, you know, how can we as people identify and protect ourselves? And I think it's interesting, the idea of organizational transparency as well. Is that something that you ever talk about in relation to this? Well, I, this, that's not something I've talked about in relation to this specifically. I do think that there are ways that organizations, I don't know how being, I think being transparent can help, but it's, it's not going to resolve the problem altogether. Because even if it's a transparent organization, or aiming to be, these people are really good at flying under the radar. I recently presented about promoting praise culture in your organization. And I think one of the positive side effects of having a culture that promotes praise is that people like this aren't going to fit into that culture for very long. And their bad behavior is going to stand out so dramatically from everyone else that they won't last in an organization like that.
So to me, it's less about transparency, and more about having an organization that thrives on the on positivity and recognizing employees. And you don't think that they can adapt easily to that type of organization? I just don't think that they would be able to survive that type of organization. Because in that organization, if you yell at someone, that's going to be totally against the culture that the business is trying to create. That's entirely unacceptable. And that's actually one of the pieces of advice that Dr. Hare gives is that you should set boundaries and then follow through. And if you don't follow, it's like raising kids, right? If you don't set boundaries and follow through, they're going to know that there's cracks in the system and they're going to exploit those because that's what kids do. But that's how you raise, I always say, raise children other people like. we get into the strategies for protecting yourself. The Dr. Hare believes that these people are born this way. And it's not something it's not a rehabilitative problem, in the same way that narcissism is you can't rehabilitate someone. And he's saying that we shouldn't give up on the research for rehabilitation, because it is so important to our society. But I do think it's important for us to recognize, you're not going to fix this problem. And you need to get yourself away from it. And that's one of the pieces of advice. If you think you're in a situation, and I know it, believe me, I love all people know it's not an easy thing to do. But if you're in a situation with someone who you think fits this profile, you need to find a way out of that situation as quickly as possible and keep yourself safe.
And this is why and I think it's important to bring this up. Again, I know it's not about this. If you are leaving a spouse, you believe to be this type of person, you need to protect yourself in the early days. This is where we see people turn. Remember, I talked about Robert Durst, people getting in his way. If you're saying to someone, I'm going to take your kids, I'm going to take your house, I'm going to, that's going to be a trigger for their violence, right? So, and not that you would say that. And even if you don't say that, so that is why women's shelters exist and places where people can be protected. So if you're in a situation where you're leaving what you think could escalate, and don't be naive to the fact that it can escalate happens all the time. I think it's every six days a woman is killed by an intimate or ex intimate partner in Canada. In the US, the numbers are far, far higher. I think it's something like every three days or something. It's crazy how high the numbers are. So protect yourself. That's really important. And I just know that we're listening to this for professional purposes, that there's going to be people who are tuning in that might be like, oh my gosh, I think I'm living with this person. Okay. So Dr. Hare's advice, one of the recommendations he makes is to know yourself. Like know what your weaknesses are, right? Like you and I've just talked about your you have a lot of qualities that make you kind of repel this kind of person, which is amazing.
And I wish I had them my whole life. I unfortunately didn't know myself very well. And as I've learned more about this personality, I shouldn't even call it, it's not a personality type, it's a disorder. I've learned more about it. I've been able to also turn the mirror onto myself and think like, what am I doing that is making me vulnerable to these situations? So be aware of what weaknesses you have that can be exploited, because they are looking for the weaknesses that they can exploit in others like a wild animal kind of thing. Right? Like I said before, take a pause, if it feels too good to be true, if you feel too good in someone's company, that might be an early warning sign. And being aware of that is really important. Because especially I know, again, we're talking at work, but someone in the workplace might be flattering you constantly. And you're like, Oh, my gosh, I just have to go to that person's office. I feel so good when I'm around them. Stop and ask yourself why they use a lot of expression, expressive language. Actually, they use their hands a lot. I don't know if you remember reading that. And I kind of I felt that was a little problematic only because like it reminded me like of he was describing basically an autistic stimming almost right okay that's very good yeah need to look into that more because you're like there's some kind of I don't know if we can just blanket statement that this is a thing with you know especially when there's some kind of i don't know if we can just blanket statement that this is a thing with you know especially when there's so much overlap with autistic stimming like maybe yeah that could be a problem i think what he's saying is it's a blanket thing for that type of person but just because a person is doing it does not make them that type of person i would i would assume not no yeah of course not absolutely not yeah um and then uh but they do things to distract you and even the way they speak makes you feel distracted because they often won't answer questions directly and they'll take you down this rabbit hole of conversation that makes you forget even what the question was that you asked in the first place right um. Yeah. And obviously listening to your gut. So if you're seeing and feeling if you're feeling like something is wrong, something is probably wrong. So delve into that.
Don't walk away from that. Also, if other people are often better than we are at seeing if we are in a situation that is unhealthy. So if you have people and taking a risk and telling you and this is why I never like when someone's manager's manager says, deal with your manager first, if you have a problem, not all problems should be dealt with the direct line manager, because of that direct line managers and the problem, that person's manager needs to know about it and they need to know about it right away. So don't reject people when they're talking about their manager because it's seen as this view of being like, you should have handled it directly. If it's too big a problem, you need the help of someone more senior. Run background checks, as I said, and note any inconsistencies between what they've stated and what you learn about their educate, like about their qualifications.
And then be aware of who the victim is. They are great at making themselves out to be the victim. You might be the victim. But also, I'll give you a real life example. They'll say, people will say if they're getting separated, oh, the kids hate their mom or they hate their dad, right? If they're little kids, what little kids hate their mom or dad? That doesn't exist. So as soon as I hear someone say that to me, I'm like, okay, you're the problem here. I'm finished with this conversation. And then seek professional support. If you've worked with someone who has this type, is this type of person, you may be suffering for a very long time, especially if you worked with them for a long time so please please take care of yourself because um the this could affect your entire career if you're not handling because you might have lost so much self-confidence uh that you really need to go and get the help that you need to kind of recover from that. And hopefully you're in a workplace where maybe you have an EAP, maybe that can get you started, or you have really good benefits. But that's a really good way to handle it.
The last thing that I did want to add, because I did two last points, because I really think they're important for our awareness and our safety. The psychopath is very good at making their victim look like the crazy one. So they'll be very calm as a cucumber, you're coming in, and you'll be having a meeting with someone. And they'll, they'll try to agitate you, they're good at provoking you behind the scenes. And then you're like, I can't believe they're saying that because and they'll be like, look how great like he's nuts, right? And they'll be like, look how great, like he's nuts, right? And they're cool and calm. And so you seem like, and then you start to even question yourself. This happens in therapy a lot with people who are living in a relationship with these types of people. The last point I want to make is single travelers are often a target. And I think that's very relevant to people who are traveling alone for business. relevant to people who are traveling alone for business. Be aware that you might open yourself up to strangers in that situation. Like if you're at the bar, if you're a hotel or something like that, be very aware of who you're talking to, of your surroundings.
Don't give someone more information than they need about you. Pretend that you're traveling with someone else when you're talking to them, even if you feel really great in their company, because that could be the first warning sign. So, yeah. And don't waste your sympathy on them. Do not spend a moment wasting time being sympathetic and as quickly as you can disengage with someone who you think is like this, if you can. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Amy, I'm really happy that you managed to get away from the situation that you told us about before. And I think that's amazingly courageous of you. And that especially now that you're, you know, you're educating other people on that as well.
Yeah, I just I see the damage that it causes on and this is like smaller scale in the workplace, bigger, bigger in, in the news, right? You're hearing all about all of these situations. There's a certain type of person that is causing all of these problems. And, and I do believe that the more we can drive awareness, and I wish, I don't know why people still laugh when I talk about psychopaths. I don't know why. I think people feel like this isn't as common. And I know that it's not like, it's not, you know, what am I trying to say? It is, it's a lot more common than we think it is. Exactly. And it's like, they say, oh my gosh, something horrible will happen to a family. And they're like, I never saw this coming. And all the like, they say, oh my gosh, something horrible will happen to a family. I never saw this coming. And all the warning signs were there. And that's what's so painful about some of these situations is all the warning signs are there. We just have this vision of a person who I feel like the media has created for us and that we believe they might look monstrous or give us signals they don't they're amazing they're so opposite to what we think that they are well i think we can come back to that maya anjali quote you know and just yeah look at people and see what they're demonstrating in the workplace and like, you know, use data and use, you know, use like leverage other people's opinions, you know, and kind of like, I guess kind of band together to make sure that we protect each other as well.
Yeah, and I do love that quote and how you completed it. Because you often hear when people show you who they are, believe them. But you said, and it is accurate, believe them the first time. Don't give them another chance. I think that's the actual quote, though, right? Yes, that's what I mean, is we often just cut it off before when people tell you who they are, believe them and it stops. But believe them and it stops. But believe them the first time. The first time part is is very important. Yeah, yeah. Awesome. Thank you so much. Oh, thank you so much for having me. And you can see probably that I'm incredibly passionate about this topic.
So it's been really nice to have the opportunity to talk about it in this much detail. I don't want to come across as though I'm an expert. I'm not. I rely on the experts for this information, but it's certainly something that I've researched a lot and thought about deeply. Absolutely. And it comes across and I can tell. Oh, we need to go and like do a Pilates class or have a glass of wine or something after this I was like please tell me she does not cancel have to cancel our recording today because I cannot carry this I have to I have to kind of not think about this for a little while because I did a lot of prep for our conversation a lot of emotional labor it is it is yes I while because I did a lot of prep for our conversation.
A lot of emotional labor. It is. It is. Yes. I'm glad I did it. And I hope that everyone just puts in that investment for themselves. Just a little bit. Listen to this podcast all the way through. Read these books. They will really help you and they will actually make your life better. It's not going to make it more scary. It's going to make it better. And when Gavin DeBecker talks about the gift of fear he truly is giving you a gift it will not make you more scared it will actually make you feel more empowered that you can handle anything that comes at you
thanks Amy
thank you
don't forget to stay weird stay wonderful and don't stay out of trouble!
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What works for other might not work for you. What if your key to success was to not have a niche? What if tring to focus on one thing was actually hindering your path success?
Founder and CEO of 8Ball Clarity, the host of the podcast The Generalist Advantage, former executive with nearly two decades in a global tech company and holds a masters in Engineering, Julie Lavergne is the quintessential Generalist who challenges the trend and notion of focusing on one niche.
Stay tuned for a direct and thought-provoking discussion on the beauty of the generalist and how it might be your key to success ;)
Stay in Touch with Julie:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/julie-lavergne/
https://8ballclarity.com/
https://open.spotify.com/show/1tgDKNCnTxrLiXCe0n9u8b
Script:
Choosing a nonlinear path is unheard of.
Every time I reinvent myself, I have to reinvent my brand.
I'm going to go and disrupt myself and prove that I can do this.
How do we help generalists understand their value and help them explain their value?
The common theme was always like, oh, what about this piece? Okay, go do this piece. And then what about this other piece? Go there.
Having a generalist must be, it must feel like having like a cross-functional team in one person.
We have so many interests. We want to do good in so many areas and trying to pick which one that with our limited resources.
Welcome to Weirdos in the Workplace, the podcast that celebrates authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose. And of course, I am your host, Erin Patchell, and I'm here with the lovely, I am your host, Erin Patchell, and I'm here with the lovely, amazing Julie Laverne. And Julie is the founder and CEO of 8 Ball Clarity, the host of the podcast, The Generalist Advantage, and she loves to minimize thinking waste and help organizations, teams, and leaders to make better and faster decisions. You are in the right place, Julie Laverne, my friend.
Oh, thank you. What a lovely intro and lovely podcast host. So thank you. Thank you. So question of the day for those of you who do not know Julie, which is maybe one or two of you, because you're very popular, especially in Ottawa. I want to get to know you a little bit. So tell me about yourself. And also tell me about like, what makes you a weirdo?
Oh, that's interesting. I just, I had a talk just recently. And all I did was like, why am I being asked to talk? And I realized is because I just make my own path. And some people could resonate with that. But I've often asked why fought the system? Why are we doing it this way? And I kind of like, why do those rules exist there? Why are are we thinking this way and so maybe that's a little bit of what makes me um good to have but also really annoying to have perhaps in the meeting room of you know going back of asking why um and so if you're asking a little bit of my journey uh it's I I started as an engineer uh because I couldn't fathom, I wanted to help people. Like this difference between science and engineering was like, no, no, I really want to build things that helps people. So that started with engineering.
And then I made my way having a lot of different roles and made my way to HR executive and now founder. And that's probably what made me a generalist, but I'm sure we'll get into that. Oh, we'll definitely get into that. So yeah, today we're going to be talking all about what it's like to be a generalist, the journey to being a generalist, and how maybe being a generalist could solve some of these problems that we have in the world today. And I know that is of deep interest to a lot of the people who listen to this podcast and we're all very well aware um of some of the ways you know that our world is you know sometimes daily feels like it's imploding so true yeah yeah and from the macro to the micro you you know? Yep. Yeah. So, yes. So you went from engineer to HR executive and now founder. Julie, wait, before we go any further, though, like how the heck did we meet? Like, I literally can't remember.
I just feel like we absorbed each other into each other's lives somehow. I feel too. How did this happen? I don't know. I want to credit the LinkedIn world. How did this happen? I don't know. I want to credit the LinkedIn world. I find, you know, sometimes like like-minded, you know, people kind of find each other on there somehow. And that's, that's how, that's what I'm thinking. But obviously we have lots of friends in common. We end up in the same circle sometimes. Yeah.
I started talking and go, let's do more of that together. I feel like I need to go back in time and figure out how this happened because I just enjoy you so much. And I really resonate with everything that you say, especially when it comes to like being rebellious and questioning. And I think that's such a good trait in people. Like, I don't think that's something that's annoying or should be bad or should be annoying at least.
You know know I think it's so good to be able to question things and find the holes and provide more context because the more context we have the better we can make decisions and I know you're going to probably tell us a little bit about that too but anyways I just had to I was just thinking like how the heck did I did we meet and I have no idea well can I just say thank you for saying that, like, just going back to like, thank you for saying that's okay to be that way. Because I think a lot of generalists would feel that it wasn't, it's not always embraced. And I could say, I probably spent 10 years of my career being the annoying person of going like, why are you bringing this up to then shifting and who I reported to, to then being called an excellent gap filler. Right. And that was praised, right? It was like, thank you. Thank you for finding those gaps and bringing those to the surface.
Cause we need to talk about them and we need to bridge them. So it's interesting that thank you for saying that it's a good thing, but cause I don't think everybody has always been embraced that way. No, actually they're not. I talked to like literally in my last job, I pretty much talked to people every single day who were looking for coaching, but in the quest to do better and for their professional development often had really emotional stories that they were telling me about, like how they weren't appreciated how you know there are the things that they noticed in the workplace were dismissed or denied or unappreciated and they were actually a lot of the time afraid they had to figure out like how do I say this the right way so that I'm not like fired or whatever you know and that just sucks so maybe we can talk about that too. Yeah, I was gonna, I was gonna keep going, because that's exactly how a lot of generalists feel, because the generalist work is kind of invisible.
Like, you don't see the work. It's not like this, like, we're not the product developer, you know, we're not the software coder or anything that comes to something tangible. We're more like this um somebody called it man behind the curtain like providing linkages across things and therefore it's not visible work therefore it's often not appreciated and therefore a little bit the conversation is maybe not the tough conversation of how to bring something up but the tough conversation of i am providing value i I am contributing and, you know, there's, there's, it's, it is valuable. Can you not see that? That comes up a lot. I think this, this actual conversation could go in a totally different direction than what I originally thought. I thought we were like, we're going to go down this one path. And now I'm like, I'm like, how do we help generalists understand their value and help them explain their value? Right.
Well, welcome to my purpose. Oh my gosh. Okay. Let's start with your story though. You went from, you were an engineer. Once upon a time, you were a child with all the hopes and dreams and then you were an engineer and then you were an HR executive and then you now you're obviously a founder and a coach and you know you're doing all the things bringing light to the world tell me about that journey and what that felt like yeah so I started so started, so started in the workplace, had, had the role as I, you know, was led to, sorry, had to do. And then what brought me is back to that questioning. So those people that are like, why is it done this way? Or why are we, why are we, what's that gap over there? Or I'm not understanding, you know think about the inputs and outputs right like I have a role and all these things are coming to me from inputs from the organization and I'm outputting and maybe I you know where is that going and so kind of those curiosity pieces led me to go but what about here and so we call like coloring outside your job description like I would do that all the time my, boss loved and hated it at the same time because it causes issues, but also love because you're doing kind of more and picking up the pieces. So that's kind of like the, operations, to finance, to systems development, to quality, to organizational development.
So it was just always about, if you think about the holistic picture and this whole like a wheel of a spoke, I always wanted to kind of try to color each, each spoke to really understand how all of it works. Right. So that's kind of like the piece that drove me was curiosity. But then how a lot of people go, how did you make the leap from a technical operational to let's say in HR, right? Sometimes that's very vastly different. And it was critical thinking. So I took the course and then I sat and then did the facilitation course. Then I did the teaching course. And then I started teaching the organization critical thinking.
And then I realized how much I love seeing people make it doesn't matter if you're in sales or software, health and safety, whatever topic, like the ability to make a better decision or the ability to like, take a really complex situation, kind of break it down and find an action plan, right? Like, I just love seeing those aha moments. And so I knew that was something I wanted to do more of. And that was the pivot. I talked with the CEO and the pivot was, Hey, can you bring this as a kind of organizational competency and really like lift the organization? And I said, challenge accepted. And that's how I kind of went into the HR kind of people space. Yeah. Okay. So it started with sort of competency development, skills development, building, helping people build context and then led you. So it was learning and development kind of like that learning and development HR bubble. And then how far, how deep into the HR world did you end up going?
Well, the part so he he the ceo would give me a nugget and what he thought would take two three years i would have like chewed up in six eight months wow he's like oh okay feed next nugget so then i got recruiting and then same same thing and i think that's where even though i had huge accomplishment accomplishments as an engineer or you know operationals person I think he had made the transferable link of how I operate is not just because a technical perspective it's more from that thinking approach perspective and using the experts around me right so I wasn't an expert in these things but pair me up with the expert man I kind of developed the process or built whatever needed to be built so then he just like kept piling it on and then said okay you're you're on the executive team now as the kind of organizational development talent person so and became quite close with him and advisor and then he then before I left was getting into strategy because he's like, oh, okay, the way you think, right? And so what was interesting is that each milestone I hit, there was always a surprise that I could hit it probably for both of ourselves really. But yeah.
Did you have any points where it was like you like kind of like growing pains through that at all? Like what was that like? kind of like growing pains through that at all like what was that like yeah I mean we talk about imposter syndrome for sure when I transferred to let's say the HR space I definitely have faced a lot of adversity of like you like but you have no training in this field right like like back to those classic questions like how you, what do you know in this space? And I face a lot of adversity, especially when I start talking with somebody, let's say a manager or whatever. And they'd be like, no, no, well, I've been managing people in this for a very long time. So let me kind of educate you or let me tell you, which I appreciated. But there's also this perspective of you've been doing it naturally for many years, right? Leadership sometimes was just from a natural place. Whereas what generalists often do is the minute they get their hands on a topic and they deep dive, right? Like multiple books, multiple videos, training, like whatever. It's like there's a deep dive into the topic really quickly. So then you get into the best practice and systems and understanding it that you could kind of apply. get into the best practice and systems and understanding it that you could kind of apply. So that was difficult because I didn't have the cred, right, to do the job.
And I just needed to show them, show value, prove myself, really serving them and showing that their life is easier working with me and that they kept coming for more. Yeah. Yeah. Once you can demonstrate it for sure, but it's, it's interesting that people don't realize how much, um, that third party outsider perspective, how valuable that can be, you know, uh, especially when you're trying to innovate, cause it's like, you aren't going to come in and do things the way that they've always been done before. Um, you're going to bring best practices in from other areas in order and apply them in this context. And then obviously integrating like the best practices probably that were known into a better system. And so I just think that's really cool. Yeah. And I think it's like marrying up multiple systems. Like I was on the operational side, like I knew what had to the work that you need to do to deliver. So I knew not to come and put in like a very, maybe labor intensive or whatever process. Like I need, I wanted to marry it up with their day-to-day to make it as efficient as possible.
And so it's kind of appreciating that, like, we need to do this piece and you're doing this other piece. How do we best do that together? And that appreciation for sure. Oh, I was just thinking like having a generalist must be it must feel like having like a cross-functional team in one person all your multiple personalities I was gonna say the worst part is when you talk to yourself about like what about this way but there's this going on and you literally could do that yeah that's amazing and then at what point did you decide like, and I mean, if it's too personal, then don't don't you don't need to tell us why you decided to start your, your business. But I'd love to hear what that journey was like. What was that moment for you that were like, I'm gonna do this on my own now? Yeah, there's definitely multiple versions of that story. I will say that without sounding arrogant, it was, I felt like I'd outgrown it. Like I felt like I needed to do more. And I knew that the system that worked, which was, you know, needed to work for the business that they are, was limiting me. And after I had delivered some major things, I said, Okay, do I want to go around this block again? And I wasn't feeling it. And so, funny enough, I actually when I started feeling that way, I was researching, like, okay, let's go do this job in a different industry. And I couldn't get a bite. So the job I had been doing in a global tech company, when I tried to go smaller company, midsize, HR, tech, they said, oh, no, sorry, you don't have the degree. You don't have this.
You don't have this you don't have that and i was like oh it's my engineering degree isn't useless like this is where i was starting like butting up against this kind of checkbox view of things and and i said white right well i'm gonna go and disrupt myself yeah and prove that i can do this And so that's where led me to this journey. Oh, dude, that resonates with me so much. I am like totally unemployable. Despite the fact that I've done so much of like, nobody's nobody wants this because I don't fit in neatly inside a box. Exactly. And that's that is something that's one of my missions is disrupt that org structure, hiring checkbox. Like we know there's a lot of value, like, oh my God, like who wouldn't want to have Erin Patchell on their team? They'd be crazy.
But because again, there's this institutional structure that said, well, where would Erin fit that is not disruptive? She doesn't fit and she might be disruptive of all her knowledge and all like, she'll then let's just not do it and I think that is a big mistake oh you can guarantee that both of us would probably be a little disruptive that's for sure but it's it works extremely well as a consultant actually um to go in gently you know kind of not shake things up too much because you can't really as a consultant or at least you shouldn't um but you know gently nudge you know nudge the nudge nudge and then and then leave you know before things get too hot leave everyone in a good position yeah yeah i'll uh i never looked at it that way but yeah i guess that's what's what I, yeah, definitely trying to do. Tell you a little bit story. When I started on talking about this topic, somebody reached out from the, he didn't say the organization he was from. I'm assuming like the Nortel days.
Cause he says, Oh, like back, way back when we do product innovation and you know, my tech, big tech company, we realized that there was like a group of misfits that kind of like, he didn't say the word misfit, but he says they like would innovate faster. Their product would go, he goes like, and then we actually hired a consultant to understand why that group was faster than the others. And that's what he said is like, they were, they had more of this generalist mindset and thinking, and it was 10% of it. He was, but politics would drag them down they were disruptive so they were they were put the corner because again they would challenge status quo and why are we doing it this way and so yeah so there's definitely an aspect of disruptive uh to what we do i can definitely vouch for that you know the last team at career joy um that you know we were developing awesome we just did such awesome work and we were so good at like getting shit done and I think most of the team were for sure generalists and like a little bit you know just definitely outside the box thinkers in different ways and then on the train to help project now it's the same it's like four of us are totally generalists like way way out like totally rebellious um and then the one person who is not is a total specialist is my husband who's our software engineer and literally he'd be happy if he was coding 15 hours a day and that's just fine yep yep we need those definitely need those exactly um but yeah yeah i think great things can.
Do you think you'll have your own crazy little team of generalists someday, Julie? Well, it's interesting as I try to embark on this topic. I, to be honest with you, I struggle a little bit of like what it could be like, is this, is this, am I just voicing something, but like, am I creating something out of it? Like what's the output? And I talked to a lot of others. I said, what are we defining as success? Right? Like, we could talk about it, but what's the end goal? Where do we know that we've reached something? And so that's still in work. I have definitely a few ideas, but the creation of more generalists or those embracing that they are a generalist, adopting generalists like there's definitely a theme there whether they all work for me or not to be determined yeah yeah I think that you could do a little bit of what we like to call world domination for good you know I think you could do some good there for sure thank you I'll uh that's my project for the summer is help sketch that out a little bit more where to put my energy well you know where to come if you need any help with that because that's my favorite thing in the entire world yes thank you so I know sometimes going through these identity transformations is difficult like how or some for some people or some people like it's it's just as easy as putting it on like a new like a new pair of like a new shirt or something you know um how did it feel to go through this these this transformation process for you uh bumpy okay like bumpy because you're going against the grind a little bit, right? Like you're causing friction with others.
Um, I'll give you an example. I finished engineering, I'm working as an engineer and I decided to go teach English in Korea. Right. Okay. Right. And so when I quit, my boss at the time said, you'll never work as an engineer again. Right? So I'm 21. Right? Making a choice and you have a person of authority, kind of say, I'll never work in what I finished five years of hard work to do again, right? Like, right. But but again it's just because for them this choosing a non-linear path is unheard of yeah and so every time you go through this process you're always less so now but earlier on definitely met with a lot of that uh like who are you to be this what this you'll never be this person and you just have to kind of keep coming back to your own identity, who you are, trust yourself, trust in your abilities to figure it out. Even when you dive into an area that you're complete, you feel like imposter, right?
I never claimed to be an expert in anything, right? So it makes it really tough when you're in a room full of experts and going, well, why are you here? so you just have to kind of trust that the way you think is a bit different and that's okay so this constant re-identifying yourself re-identifying who you are because then you're the the language you're using is different right like today i'm engineering your language another day your hr language but also um re-identifying yourself and reasserting yourself that like you are offering something in the way you think has value. And that's why you're here today, right? In that project or team or whatever it is. It's true that like branding is so important because people don't like when I started Positivist Group, people are like, I just don't get it. Like, what are you doing?
And I'm like, I'm solving people problems solving people problems you know they're like what does that mean like oh my god here's what yeah you don't have people problems like we've got no people problems but that's what we kind of generalists kind of end up being experts in is like the problem solving yes yes like learning and problem solving um because and then and then I think sometimes, at least I feel like this is starting to become a sweet spot for me, is every time I reinvent myself, I have to reinvent my brand. And so marketing and communication is starting to become really important on how I articulate like, what am I doing now? Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. And you know what, you could definitely help provide some tips on that because that's the one thing that comes up again and again with generalists is again, they have all these pieces of a career and skills and competency, but they seem so different. And so they have to bring a through line to it. They have to bring a little bit of that marketing spin. Like they got to tie the dots for the other person. And it's really hard to do it yourself. And it's a little bit of that marketing feel to it, as you said, in communication.
So that's definitely where I see a lot struggle. And there's some resources out there, especially the one question everybody hates is if you go to an event and goes what do you do right I don't even know what I tell people anymore same I like I honestly now I feel that's a really good question I'm still trying to figure that out like I'm just kind of joking with it or I give a different answer each time like I just play with it now yeah I'm the same. Depends on what I think they would be more perceptive to. Perceptive, is that the right word? Receptive, more receptive to. Or sometimes I'll just say I'm an entrepreneur. And then they're like, okay. Okay, yeah. And if they're curious, they'll say, of what? Tell me more. If not, then okay. I know we're talking, but when did you identify as a journalist? Like when, like you embrace that, which we love. Some people are still on that journey. Yeah. I mean, I didn't have a choice, but to embrace it. Cause I don't think that I, I couldn't be fit in box. Like I didn't have a professional job until I was 30. Right. So like I was freelance and I was doing home daycare and you know freelance marketing and communications and fundraising and home daycare and stuff throughout my 20s when my kids were young um because I had three kids by the time of 25 right um so I didn't really know I knew I was good at a lot of things but I didn't really know what to do until or how to frame that or like, I think it was about 30, 31 by the even before I'd heard the word generalist. And I was like, OK, interestingly, on a lot of the tests that I do, like there's a lot of psychometric testing tools on some of them.
I actually identify as I, I test as a specialist. It's cause I like details. So they think if you like details, you must be a specialist. Not true. Actually. I like all the things. Thank you very much. Um, um, so, but I think that I've been a generalist my whole life and I don't think I had any choice, to um but to sort of be that way yeah I think so you know what now that you're telling now you never been thinking about this I have a little I have obviously the ADHD and I'm that's a theme that's a theme yes um but when I was a kid I didn't really talk till I was about outside the house outside of my safe spaces till I was like 11, 12 years old. Um, and that's a story that I've told on the podcast a few times before. But, uh, I, all I did when I was a child was like, I drew horses. I would draw horses like all day, every day. It was psychotic. Almost. It was like really fix hyper fixated. It was like ridiculous. So all I would do is like draw horses. And then I was like, I'm going to be a veterinarian. I started volunteering a veterinary clinic.
I started horseback riding my parents. We didn't grow up with a lot of money, but they finally got a little bit of money together. So I could start horseback riding lessons when I was around 11. And then within like six months I had to quit because my, I just all of a sudden developed these insane allergies. So I had to quit all of that. I had to quit the veterinary clinic. I had to quit because I just all of a sudden developed these insane allergies. So I had to quit all of that. I had to quit the veterinary clinic. I had to quit horseback riding. And I became very depressed for a little while. And then I started my clown business when I was 12. So that kind of brought me out of it a bit, gave me something to do. So maybe I would have been a more of a specialist. Maybe I would have focused had it not been for that like dramatic life transition that changed that was thrust upon me I just don't know what do you think you're the expert here I I don't claim to be an expert of anything I am claiming of uh yes researching and talking to people and trying to draw this data that is definitely a question that comes up quite a bit of if I had better career guidance would I have been a you know would I figured it out earlier if I yeah didn't have these events would I have been without any proof I think it's more of a mindset it's a little bit on the ADHD like I think that's who you are fundamentally and even if you had career guidance and didn't have, you might have been, you know, one races as a, you know, horse racing, and then you would have pivoted because you've done it and you've, you know, it's fun and you'll move to something else. So, but that's just Julie version.
I have no proof or data to say that's, that's my opinion. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, certainly, you know, my life would demonstrate that that's probably true. Yeah. Yeah. Cause everything else that maybe you didn't have a major event, you just chose to keep going into something else. Cause there's not enough time for all the things that we want to explore, which is one of the challenges, right? Like we're, we have so many interests. We want to do good in so many areas and trying to pick which one that with our limited resources. This is the one thing that I always think about is like, I wish I could have, I wish I could live multiple lives to do all of the things that I wish I would, that I want to do, right? Yeah. If there was one other thing, if there's like's like you know one life that you could pick for yourself that's like totally different from what you're doing now I'm curious if you have something in mind oh god no you're like oh I wish I could do that no and you know a little bit about me is something I've learned over time is I never had those crazy big I wish dreams. And so, I mean, it's good in one way that I'm happy in my life. Like, you know, I feel, you know, I've traveled to over 40 countries. I've done the backpacking. I've, you know, been the exec, I, I, I, you know, I have financial, I have friends.
Like, so in some ways I don't have these other big, crazy, like, Oh, if only I wish probably the one right now is maybe yes, right now is like going to learn Spanish in another country and living there. Um, but that's like the retirement plan. Sure. You can still do that. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah. totally yeah yeah yeah that's very cool um how do you create how do we create more generalists i'm gonna say we because i would like to help you um well there's there's there's a few options i'm thinking about one is though how do you identify them right like those that are sometimes self-identified great some are still on I I talked to somebody I said oh like she had done so many different things in an organization like oh you're a generalist and right away she said no no I'm not I've actually done some important things and so there's a there there's a, there's, there's a stigma right now. And some people say it's changing, speaking to brand and marketing and reinventing this brand. Some people say generalist has a stigma that has to be removed, but there's a lot of other kind of movements that's calling it something different, but I'm like, it doesn't matter what you call it. It's still the same thing.
So it's kind of identifying that, that there is value. So I think it's one communicating that there is value there and not just shying away from it um and then i'm curious and that's something i've been researching i my upcoming on my podcast is gen z's will generalists exist with gen z like my assumption is they're naturally exposed to many many different things like way more than when i was younger um but they still don't identify generalists. I've talked to a career advisor for university there. There's still a thing about picking that one career, right? And so they're what some of them are trying to play the game and go, well, we we took a major that was still broad as a topic, right? And so they're trying to pursue interest, but it's really interesting. It's, it's actually the high school problem having, I have three high school children.
So I'm like, this is a big problem in the high schools right now is they are pushing them to stream them into university and to, you know, ideally, you know, the most narrow course they can find. Cause usually that comes with, you know, a guaranteed thing or whatever, if you can hack it. Right. But the problem is universities are actually adapting faster than, than high schools right now. They're really moving to, if you ask anyone in university, moving more to micro credentials, right. That build into larger degrees. If you look at like, you don't just see a lawyer anymore. It's like a lawyer who specializes in this narrow niche that is like overlapping with this other thing. See like in short, like people who are like, you know, lawyers who are like also like realtors and like dabble in insurance or whatever, you know, like you have, and that focus only on this type of corporation, you know, like you, people are niching down so much that they have to become generalists in a way.
And they're doing that because they are following their curiosity, I think. But it's like, but like you see the kids, like the teenagers are completely unaware that this is even an option. Yeah, yeah. Crazy. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I've heard that. so when I spoke to a career advisor specialist she said it's such a noxious moron right she calls herself a generalist but the career advisor specialist but we each have a field right um she was saying the parents have started embracing being generalists and understanding the careers will change etc as you are talking but sometimes it's more of the kids and the environment that they're in.
They haven't embraced it, which I think is just really fascinating. Where in the past would have been the parents going, you have to be a lawyer, go do this. So yes, we have work to do in multiple fronts. Yeah. Yeah. The career, the, the, the, I don't know if they, what do they call guidance counselors in high schools? I don't know what their KPIs are. I think that they have KPI. I do believe they have them because of the amount of pressure they put on kids. Like my, my son who had been through cancer, you know, and he deserved a gap year. Uh, and we had planned for him to have a gap year, came home a couple of falls ago before he had graduated and was like in panic mode because he hadn't applied to anything.
And I was like, hold on, this is the plan. Yeah. We planned for this. You deserve a year off. You wanted a year off. What's going on? He's, and he described to me the kind of pressure that they were getting from their guidance counselors. And it's just, please stop. Please stop. Doesn't it make you angry angry it actually does make me angry yeah especially i mean on the generalist front on life experience front on you are better human if you take some time sometimes and especially it's interesting traveling um it's so normalized in uk uk is one of the countries i know that gap year is very much embraced so why why not here yeah no and he did end up taking a gap year but believe me like getting him from getting him back to you know to like yeah this is okay you don't have to follow the you know the crowd like this is right um getting him to feel okay about that again was a struggle so anyways it's it's thank you thank you for doing obviously it's your son to do that but yeah thank you you know i just don't get it anyways we that's one thing i think universities actually have a better handle on this than than the high schools and i do wonder if it's because they're being rewarded somehow you know i'm curious about that.
Any high school guidance counselors out there? Let me know if you don't like me anymore, but that's okay. Well, they could come on the podcast and talk about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Come talk about it. Or maybe on your podcast. Oh, yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. The generalist's advantage. So tell me what you've got planned for the podcast. Well, again, it's what happened is when I posted about being a generalist, I know a couple years ago, like I hit a nerve, like I, you know, I'm on a good day. I have 20 likes on LinkedIn, right?
Like, oh, yeah, that was a good day. So when I was like 150, 200, respond, like likes and responses and personal messages, I was like, oh respond like likes and responses and personal messages I was like oh oh oh I hit something so then I wanted to connect with them because again there is a bit of a lonely feeling like other people think like this as well like really resonated with the book range etc um so I had all these amazing conversations and somebody said why did you press record right like and I went oh right okay you know like I should like because they were really great on with like you know careers and like recruiters and just like all these different people with some with ADHD and some in the military from across the world and I was like these are really and they all felt lonely and so it was like about the sharing and so I finally got there of you know getting all of the pieces together to talk about again having these conversations with various people that agree or may disagree with it or don't identify with it and you know I'd love the specialist perspective of working with a generalist right like it must be really hard for them to like follow us or kind of connect with us sometimes and so uh yeah so that's what the the purpose is is talk like exploring it in all these different avenues finding some common themes which i already kind of talked about like a lot some of them definitely on the adhd spectrum and um yeah seeing what comes out of it after multiple conversations seeing what because we need more data multiple conversations, seeing what, because we need more data. We need more research. We all feel a certain way and I'm trying to, you know, engineer it with data and say, okay, after so many conversations, this is what it looks like.
Yeah. Well, I'm a big fan of what you're doing. So you let me know how I can, you know, how we can share this message further. I think it's important i actually think it's even more important like we chatted like very briefly at the beginning of the podcast about how many problems we have in the world right now yes um and a lot of it i think is the result of just silos and bad communication and miscommunication and discommunication or disinformation. Yeah. And that can be prevented by just more context.
A hundred percent. And also like if they were going to put together a quote unquote tiger team to try to solve some of these problems and they go, well, we need one person from here and a person from here and a person from here, who are we saying, okay, bring in the generalist. And they're going to go, well, what role do they fit?
Just, just there'll be the glue of that team that will accelerate your innovation problem solving. Just trust that. Yeah, totally. Yes. Yeah. That should be a role. Like we should write a job description. Yeah. And that was one of the metrics. Like if somebody puts out a job description that is a version of looking for the generalist, then that's, that's a win. Yeah. Yeah. That's a really cool idea. I love that. Okay. So there's different metrics along the way that we could celebrate together. Yeah, for sure. Thank you for coming on the show.
Thank you so much for having me. I feel like we could talk about this for, there's so it's such a juicy topic. Like there's so many layers here I know if I could do this full time I would but well at least we've got your podcast so we can listen to that and that's on all your usual podcast platforms apple podcast spotify for now yes perfect okay well I will definitely link to that in the show notes and other ways that you can get Julie. Is there anything you'd like to say? Just like final words? No, thank you. I love connecting with people. I was open for it.
So please do. And again, thank you for all that you do.
Don't forget to stay weird, stay wonderful, and don't stay out of trouble!
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In this world there are leaders, strategists, implementers, shephards, heroes...
And let's not forget, Kathleen Johnson!
CEO of Kreativ Culture Strategies where she provides Diversity Equity Inclusion, and Anti-Racism training to organizations across Canada. She is an innovative leader who partners with her clients to deliver heart-centred diversity training and strategy that incorporates creativity to arrive at practical solutions.
With a background in Film and TV as a makeup artist and DEI advisor for films and scripts, a background in literature, writing poerty and short stories, and being a senior Consultant of Diversity Equity and Inclusion with the Provincial Health Services Authority in BC, Kathleen Johnson is a powerful force who has the knowledge, the education and the skills to talk to us about DEI and the creative culture in corporate.
Tune in, learn something new and don't stay out of trouble!
Stay in Touch with Kathleen
https://ca.linkedin.com/in/kmjdiversity?trk=public_post_feed-actor-name
https://www.instagram.com/the_kreactivator/
https://www.youtube.com/@thekreactivators/videos
For more info on Kathleen and her work: https://www.kreativculturestrategies.com/
Scripts:
There's a long documented history of human rights issues.
The weirdos in the workplace are usually the most, some of the most open-minded, you know, willing to accept feedback sort of people.
There's a lot of ways where employers have realized, oh, this is actually, this is actually a benefit.
I can't fix what I don't know.
You will be supported. You'll be understood. I think corporate culture has a long way to go in that regard.
Welcome to Weirdos in the Workplace, a podcast that celebrates authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose in our world of work. And I'm really excited to have Kathleen Johnson with me here today. Hello, Kathleen. Hello. Thank you for being on the podcast. This is awesome. I'm really excited about that. Thank you. Thank you so much. being on the podcast. This is awesome. Really excited.
Thank you.
Thank you so much. So I'll tell you a little bit about Kathleen. Kathleen is the CEO of Creative Culture Strategies, and she provides diversity, equity, inclusion, and anti-racism training to organizations across Canada. Kathleen partners with her clients to deliver heart-centered diversity training and strategy that incorporates creativity to arrive at practical solutions. And for those of you who are watching us on YouTube or, you know, Facebook or LinkedIn or whatever, and we can, you can see our background, you can see it clearly spelled there, but of course we will have it in the show notes as well. Awesome. Welcome to the show, Kathleen.
Thank you so much. I'm really happy to be here. And we've had these discussions before so it just feels like we're having a carrying our discussion onto YouTube.
Exactly we're finally just pressing record sometimes I wish we could just like press record on our conversations every now and then I'm like oh that would have been perfect on the podcast. Yeah I'm just getting into podcasting as well. And it's like, you get that podcast brain where you're like, I want to, I want to capture this. Yeah. Like that was such a good video clip. Dang. How can I remember this? For folks who haven't met Kathleen before, Kathleen is also a very proud humanist as am I. And we actually met, well, kind of because I sort of like stalked her slash introduced myself after listening to you speak Kathleen after you were doing a workshop with Humanist Canada and I thought you were just brilliant and it was about the topic of diversity equity and inclusion and yeah so are you still involved at all with Humanist Canada?
I actually didn't know that's where you first saw me actually so that's cool I'm not currently involved just because of capacity so I follow I amplify but I am not actively involved at the moment. Yeah. So just, yeah. And then like some light stalking afterwards on my part. And now, you know, maybe a little friendship that's bloomed. So that's very nice. Yeah, absolutely. I am still in, I am sort of involved with BC Humanists. I'm taking part in a book compilation that they are writing. And so I don't know when that's going to be coming out it's supposed to be earlier this year and now it's kind of delayed delayed because we're they're looking for the researchers with BC Humanists are looking for a university to publish to publish the work so that's a bit of a shop around but that's exciting yeah that's going to be coming out hopefully this year yeah I will I will hunt it down that seems to be what I do um so you know I know you're you know you're the mom of five kids we've talked before about both of us you know having had having ADHD and kind of feeling like kind of outsiders or rebels.
The first question that we've been asking folks coming on the podcast recently is, you know, the title of the podcast is Weirdos in the Workplace. And most folks who listen to us and people who are on the podcast kind of feel like a little bit of a weirdo sometimes. How does that resonate with you? I definitely resonate with that. I do feel as a neurodivergent person, having ADHD and learning disability, but also being coded gifted as a kid, there's all kinds of ways that my brain works that I notice other people's brains do not work. And I think especially within corporate structure, this is my first time being outside of arts fields or other environments. So it's been a learning curve for me to actually work within a corporate structure that is a lot more hierarchical, a lot more bureaucracy and structure, and that is the beast that it is.
And so I think it's unfortunate though, because I think that my aspect of how I just kind of, you know, have different ideas just all the time bouncing around in my brain um there's there's patience and appreciation for that in my position and because it's also a new department and a new position this position within phsa it's not to confuse people i also am a senior consultant in the provincial health authority here in bc that um uh my position has not been done before. And so there has been a lot of leeway in terms of what I'm able to bring to the organization, how we're actually able to make something happen. So there's probably more flexibility than normally would be experienced.
But I have had to think in a different way. I've had to learn that I have to provide more details to people, that people are not just going to catch my drift of what I'm trying to say. So it's, it's really forced me to be a lot more of a methodical thinker, a tactical thinker, work strategically, and really make sure that all the ways that my brain wants to do things that I'm actually, that I've actually got a plan, which is difficult to do. If anybody that has ADHD, no planning is not necessarily a hallmark strong point. So it's really taught me a lot of new skills. And so I've embraced trying to work within that kind of structure. Wow. Yeah. I always tell people, like, I don't know that I could do it.
You know, like I physically don't know if I could work within like a highly bureaucratic governance model. hopefully to the point where folks with ADHD can navigate the world of work a little bit more easily and find the accommodations that they need in order to survive there, let alone thrive, you know? Yeah. What are you seeing in the world of work these days? Are you seeing the positive movement that we all sort of been hoping for? I do. I think the biggest point of frustration comes with me not really knowing how to answer the question when I get it, how can I support you? It's a later in life diagnosis for me.
And so for me to actually understand myself enough to communicate what I need has been a struggle. I think also, but, but yeah, in general, I think there's a change in terms of people want to know they want, they're not just taking it like, oh, everybody has, you know, you've heard that everybody has a little ADHD. Oh, I forgot my keys three times last week. And so I must have it too kind of thing. I think people are kind of understanding more neurological differences. And there, there has been that positive shift and like, okay, let, let, let's try to understand how you need support and what that looks like and how we can accommodate. A bit of a caveat though, is that the better you can advocate for yourself is sometimes the harder it is to get your needs met because it's kind of like, okay, well, you work really well in this area.
You might have even an exceptional ability in X, Y, Z way. So do you really need this accommodation? And so I find that that can be a little difficult. And I don't think it's quite 100% changed in that regard. But I think it's moving in the right direction. I think it's just people, I think what we need to do is normalize from the interview process, because we know the employee experience starts right from the interview, sometimes even before that you can disclose something like that. I know a lot of people don't. I didn't.
I never do. it's normal to disclose if you have a hidden disability and um and feel safe doing that and know that um you you will be supported you'll you'll be understood I think corporate culture has a long way to go in that regard oh I would agree with that I mean the word on the street like the advice on the street you know uh, in the different groups that I'm involved in with disability groups or neurodivergent groups is not to disclose, you know, like that, you know, you better not because yeah, you don't even know if you're being discriminated against, frankly. Right. So, and there's very little, like, like you know very few checks and balances um so it would be really nice if we could like really trust that an employer wasn't going to discriminate or even if they were you know i mean i i think it's great to employ people with disabilities because people with disabilities have amazing problem solving capabilities because they've you know we've been problem solving our whole lives trying to figure out how to you know be like a regular person or whatever you know uh just trying to do stuff that everyone takes for granted a lot of the time so um i think i think you should hire more people with disabilities i don't know. What do you think?
Yeah, I, there was something in the UK that I read about that, like a long time ago with companies that were actually prioritizing hiring people with neurodivergent brains. Right. Ability to hyper-focus was one of them that was an attractive quality. ability to hyper focus was one of them that was an attractive quality um just uh being able to offer different solutions quickly um processing quickly i think that's a misunderstanding of a lot of neurodivergencies uh that it takes us maybe a while longer to get things maybe maybe in certain regards um but i find, I don't know if you find this because everybody with a given diagnosis or, you know, condition is different, but I find my brain works quite fast.
And so sometimes, you know, just the other day, my, one of my colleagues was like, cause we try to give these kudos where it's's like, give say something nice to your colleague next to you kind of thing. And so he's like, I just don't know how you know what you know. I know what I know. Do you know what I'm saying? Because the way that I learn is like, not in a, let me read this and learn this, you know, it's just like a lot of subliminal stuff. So yeah, I think understanding how that kind of person thinks and works and operates. Yes, there's a long way to go with that. But there's a there's a lot of ways where employers have realized, oh, this is actually a benefit. I think there's, because of all the accommodations we've had to make throughout our lives and workarounds and all these kinds of things, it helps us to see things from a different angle a lot of the time. Like if a group of people are, because they're institutionalized, and I don't, I mean that in the way that they're used to thinking within the corporate process. So it's always like the thought at the end of it is always, how will the board see this? How will such and such director or ed see this and so you're not really using your own um thinking at that point you're kind of thinking how someone else would how someone else would be thinking about it and i think that's where a lot of limitations come in and how people think about things.
I don't even have the ability to think like that. So I just put it out there and, you know, I'm always bringing new and fresh ideas to my team because I think I have the stamina to do that because it's, you know, when you're talking to people, I don't know how many different things you do. I know there's a lot, but that's normal to me. If I was actually going to work and just coming home, I've never done that. And I don't know how that even works. I always am doing various different things and that always looks scatterbrained. If you are not used to that kind of way of being. And so I think it's a struggle is it's a struggle to always be, you know, communicating to people like, no, I got this. This is just normal to me.
This is just normal to me. And so, yeah, I think it's a bit of a discovery for people to encounter somebody that is neurodivergent and actually have to work with them. So I realize I might frustrate other people. I realize I might talk too fast or I might be moving on too quickly, or I might be doing certain things. So just, you know, I'm open to bringing things to my attention, like, hey, could you please give me a little more clarity on that? I'm not there yet, or what have you. So I think you have to be open to understanding that not everybody's going to get you and just help people along with that because it's not really an expectation of mine that, oh, you know, understand me or else I just got to be patient.
I found like the weirdos in the workplace are usually the most, some of the most open-minded, you know, willing to accept feedback sort of people, like really like a strong belief in continuous improvement, because like, we've tried so hard to fit in and probably maybe, and it just didn't work, but we're constantly like striving to do better. It's like, but if I don't know from I'm an early age and it sounds like you were like this too. It was like, I can't fix what I don't know. You know, like I can't fix something about me.
Not that there's anything I should be fixing. I eventually learned necessarily, but you do want to make people feel comfortable. I don't want to make anyone feel uncomfortable, you know, with my behavior or my, you know, if I'm too loud or too crazy or too whatever, like I want to make sure that I care about the way people feel around me as well. Right. And that's not because they told some, like, there's some like societal pressure to do that. It's really because I just, I just want people to feel comfortable, you know? And so if that means that like, I can learn to just dial something back a little bit you know I'm gonna do that and I think that's okay and that's that's an individual thing probably right um yeah I think it's actually really indicative of the condition of having um ADHD and what because we're always um that that I think that is actually a thing from childhood where, you know, we've been told we get a lot of feedback on our behaviors. Right. And so we are more concerned, I think, with how does this person think about me? Am I being too much? How are they perceiving me?
And yeah, so we are open to feedback because we have learned that we're not the best gauge of our behavior. we have learned that we're not the best gauge of our behavior uh so like to other people to say hey if i'm i'm getting too much um just let me know i'm totally fine with that um because we're used to it we're used to hearing you know hey calm down don't do that don't touch that don't you know as it's such a normal part of how we're how how we work but yeah I think one thing that popped out to me the other day I was talking to my son about my aha moment was um I think I understand the major difference between somebody that's neurotypical and somebody that's neurodivergent.
And he's like, what? Because he's autistic and has ADHD as well. And I said, it's, I think logic overrides emotion for somebody that's neurodivergent and emotion overrides logic for somebody that's neurotypical. It's just a theory. overrides logic for somebody that's neurotypical it's just a theory and I'm uh and I'm working on what that I'm working on what that looks like see if I'm right or not how right I might be but on the type of neurodivergence as well because I know people who are like borderline personality usually that's characterized by like very strong emotion like a very strong like inner world and emotional world and that kind of rides everything but definitely for me that strikes true for sure but is bpd a mood disorder or is it a neurodivergence or is it both centered i think it's with i think neuro it's a neurodivergence for sure yeah um I think most like personality disorders are considered neurodivergence as well which is okay okay see I'm learning something yeah I wasn't aware of that I thought it was quite separate so yeah yeah anyways it's it yeah it's interesting like even a psychopath would probably be considered neurodivergent I'm very sure yeah for sure yeah hernia is considered neurodivergent and yeah so but I think I think that's probably very true in certain cases of neurodivergency like for sure ADHD autism I think probably that's that strikes me as accurate anyways yeah very concrete way uh of thinking yeah yeah absolutely hmm very interesting um so before we you know I've been putting this out in the universe me and you and I both talk to a lot of DEI and for myself as well as accessibility advocates consultants you know people who are just working in this space or trying to make impact in this area and it's become really apparent I think to both of us as we were talking before that folks seem to be burning out.
You mentioned that some people are like, that you know, are like leaving the industry. This is really concerning for me, I think for all of us, you know, who are in the space trying to make an impact. I'm just curious, like, you know, what are you seeing as overall themes in the DEI space right now? This or other things? Yeah, I'm seeing burnout for sure. I've always seen that. There's stats to support that. The lifespan of someone in this profession is usually three to five years. And I've seen more recently two, two to four.
So I definitely get that people are tapped out. They have to often perform miracles with little to no budgets. as the representation of everything to do with that work. And so I find that now there is more of an understanding that DEI is everybody's work to do, that this person is leading it, but it's everybody's work to do or else it doesn't work. And there's expectations there that can be expectations on the practitioner side and expectations on who is employing you or contracting with you to do the work. And so, and not saying that people that burnt out don't do this, but it's very important to set expectations from the very beginning.
Like, you know, I'm not a miracle worker. I'm going to need some resources. I'm going to need some budget. And kind of making that very clear. Also, when I've been looking for positions and I've been looking at what they're paying, I think that's disappointing as well for a lot of people. And as we know, the cost of living rising so sharply especially in the last few years it's really hard to keep up with these um with these laundry list job descriptions that want five to ten years experience in dei and how is that possible when this just became a field since 2020?
You must have a master's, you must have this, this, this. So I have now seen more of job descriptions that are more asking for a realistic parameter of skills, education, and so forth, because that can be really the crux of what the issues are, is that from the very beginning, it's like, can you perform miracles? And so that's part of it. And I think also when you're doing something in any official capacity that you've had to deal with your whole entire life, it can just, it can just become something like, okay, I think I'm kind of done explaining or I'm done justifying this work or, you know, and so I find that a lot of practitioners are like, well, if they don't get it, I don't know. I don't know how that's possible to not get it.
Whereas I find that I don't have that kind of attachment to what's somebody's level of commitment or understanding is even. And so when I talk about the new certification I have, which I'll, you know, talk about later, even. And so when I talk about the new certification I have, which I'll talk about later, I think it really helps because people and practitioners have not had really a lot of frameworks that they can apply. And so how do you get other people involved in doing the work if there really isn't a concise framework. There was a standard before, but there's been issues with that. So I think it's just setting expectations like, here's what I do, here's what I need you to do, and here's what I need to do the work, and here's what doing the work means. So when a lot of practitioners were let go recently in the United States and whatnot, they were doing that based on seeing DEI only as addressing race.
So I saw this happening and I was like, there's going to be a counter swing to this because it is not just race. It is every marginalization and also newer generation, Gen Z, early millennials, Gen Alpha now coming into the workforce. These are generations that identify in more than one marginalized group at the same time and more multiracially. group at the same time and more multiracially. So I really think it's not understanding even the basics of what this work actually is. And then, you know, people with lived experience being stuck with, okay, how do I actually framework this, action this out, get people on board, get buy-in? It's very difficult. It's not easy work. No, it's certainly not. It's extremely emotionally laborious, this work. I'm not a DEI practitioner, you know, so, but I have many friends who are DEI practitioners. And I think you get into the work, like most people get into, you know, culture work or a lot of the work that we do in coaching and whatnot, because we have some kind of lived experience that, you know, developed a passion for something.
You know, we feel like we want to change something. So we enter this change management space in a niche area like DEI or accessibility or, you know, different kinds of cultural transformations. And, you know, it feels like you're pushing a boulder up a hill a little bit. And I think you're right. I think it's because, you know, we're not really trying to meet people where we're at. We're going in with an agenda, you know. It's sort of the opposite of the coach mentality in some ways, where it's a coach mentality, right? You're like, you're meeting people where they are without an agenda and you're working on their agenda. It's like we're coming in with this agenda and, you know, trying to apply our worldview onto, onto something. And that doesn't mean that that worldview is, you know, I think the, I think it's a good worldview to have. Right. I think it's important. Yeah. I mean, a few things there, a few things there is that I'm not just speaking from lived experience and we've actually had this issue in training because I do a lot of, I do a lot of education. There's a lot of scholarship.
There's a lot of hardcore academic scholarship behind DI work because it's human rights and there's a long documented history of human rights issues since the inception of Turtle Islands and since the inception of Canada and the United States and Western countries. You know, different groups have been telling us what their experiences are. So that can be part of the frustration for people doing this work is like, you know, we've had three waves of feminism. We've had the civil rights movement. We've had disability rights movements. We've had this and that movement. How much more do you need to know? And so I think I also resist that kind of characterization that it's like this pocket niche thing, because it's literally every other type of human aside from the prototype normative human of a white male of a certain age, of a certain religion. So it's everybody else. And so that's not really niche to me. And I think that's kind of the mind setting behind it is how much of a smart business strategy is that to cut off something that is so pervasive and concerns so many groups of people? Because I think that people, I think that companies organizations, and this is just my guess, people I think that companies organizations and this is just my guess might not be what it is is that we focus so much on multiculturalism before and unity and all these things and it's wonderful but we weren't actually meeting people's needs we weren't actually hearing from people their struggles their realities and so it became a thing of like, oh, well, knowing the nuances of whether people bow or whether they handshake and thinking, well, that is cultural competency as far as relations go within a corporation. That's all a business person needs to know is, you know, the customs and those, those kinds, those are surface things.
Those are really surface things. I think in terms of what people are actually struggling with and what they actually need to fully participate is a totally different thing. And I don't think that's something that's easily understood without somebody with lived experience and expertise. You have to also have education in this area to be effective. Oh, absolutely. But I do think that there is often a lived experience that drives them to learn more, you know, to want to write a wrong. you know, to want to write a wrong, you know, want to write a wrong. And I think, I think that makes a lot of sense. That's almost, you're talking about building cultural competency as a transaction, right? Like I'm, we're doing business together.
We just need to know enough about each other to do business together. Whereas we're trying to build companies that have relationships between different kinds of people. And in order to do that, you need to be able to know enough to be able to treat somebody else like a human being. Is that, am I picking up what you're putting down? Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I can't emphasize the generational gaps in this work enough because you have, I mean, I remember working 30 years ago, 20 years ago, and it was like, you just show up and go to work. Nobody, there's not an expectation that your boss cares about you at all. And not to say that there wasn't bosses that didn't care. I've had great bosses even back then, but I think it was not an expectation. It is an expectation now. It is an expectation that when a George Floyd happens or when a Palestine happens or when a Wet'suwet'en or when something happens, that it is addressed in some fashion or form beyond a performative statement. And that was not an expectation before. And there's actually people that will not choose to work in your organization because they don't know where you stand on things.
And so it's an actual, it's a actual it's a it's a it's not so much a cancel culture but it's a culture of accountability and it's an adjustment we're making because we're not used to that we're used to this is your position this is um this is what it is do your work um it's that is a huge shift in the last few years. And that is where I think there's a difference and a misunderstanding is that people, I hear it all the time from people my age, people just don't want to come in and do their job. It is also inappropriate to talk about politics, to talk about religion, to talk about these things in the workplace not too long ago was considered downright inappropriate. And so now we've had to make this shift where people want emotionally intelligent, culturally competent, psychologically safe leadership. Huge, huge difference. safe leadership. Huge, huge difference. Yep. People want to know, like, can I live with their values and ethics? And in order to do that, we need to make those transparent and demonstrable, right? Like, you know, what are we putting our money where our mouth is? Are we actually, do we believe what we're saying? You know, are we, you know, getting that out in the universe? Are we actually doing the stuff that we say we do? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I have three Gen Z's and you have some Gen Z's as well.
Do you have any millennials? No, no, no no no i my eldest is 26 i don't think that's millennial no i'm pretty sure it's not i don't know in the cutoff is um maybe 96 oh he's 97 seven so he might be he might be yeah like a late like um yeah yeah it might be just the cusp between you know in that bubble yeah um i think gen z though i think he's gen z yeah i think so yeah five yeah 26 to age uh 18 yeah what are you seeing as i'm curious maybe we're seeing the same things uh from our kids in terms of what they care about. They care about their world very, very much. And they are very aware of things on a level that, I mean, I was quite an aware kid. I was quite an aware teenager. But I think that they are not as, it's not as hard for them to understand certain things. Like where I might struggle with explaining intersectionality or generational trauma or emotional intelligence things to an older person um they don't struggle with that no at all like at all i can explain to them well this is that might they might not have heard the term but when they explained it to them they're like oh yeah yeah people are different in multiple ways and and not everybody needs the same thing and you, and they're more aware of justice pieces that, you know, they're more aware of what anti-oppression looks like, what anti-racism looks like. And these are things that are not as hard for them to grasp.
And so that's what I'm seeing is like the conversations that I can have with my kids are it would be an advanced conversation with a lot of other adults that I can have with my kids are, it would be an advanced conversation with a lot of other adults that I know. Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah. I'm sometimes very surprised with how easy the conversation flows around some of these topics and how they're contributing to the conversation. And honestly, sometimes even teaching me things. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've had like, I talked to my kids about politics. I talked to them about religion. I talked to them about like all kinds of things and they're like, yep, get it. Got it. They might not agree with me all the time, but they get it. Yeah. I mean, they're, they're fine with disagreeing with me. That's never a problem. Yeah. I mean, they're, they're fine with disagreeing with me. That's never a problem. Mom's wrong. Tell me, okay. So you're writing a book, you've been writing a book, Thinking Outside the Boardroom.
Tell me a little bit about that. And then I want to talk about your new certification. Cause that sounds really interesting, but tell me about the book. Yeah. What all of that? because that sounds really interesting. But tell me about the book. Yeah. What all of that? I think outside the boardroom is kind of my understanding of this work. I wanted to put it out there. And I also wanted to help organizations explore creativity around it. Creativity, particularly regarding engagement. How do you get people into this discussion? How do you get people unafraid?
And, you know, helping people to build the capacity to actually engage with on very difficult, potentially highly divisive topics very difficult, potentially highly divisive topics in a, in a safe way. And so it's kind of that exploration and yeah, that's, I'm excited about it. It's I am actually going to be finished this month and it will go to the publisher and then hopefully have it in my hands. month and it will go to the publisher and then hopefully have it in my hands uh i'm hoping by october uh september that's amazing yeah um well i yeah we'll definitely have to have a virtual beverage together or something to celebrate really excited to read it. I'm excited to read it because I think that you think about things in such a, like, I want to say a complex way, but also simple, if that makes sense. Like, I think it's very nuanced and different the way that you think about this work. And I wish we had more time to really go into it, but hopefully people started picking a little bit of that up through the conversation as well. But tell me, okay, so tell me about your new certification and should I be getting this certification? Should I sign my card? Yeah. What can I say about it? It's diversity and it's diversity inclusion service management. So it's DISM. Long title is DISM ISO 30415 semicolon 2015, 2021, sorry.
So it is an international standard organization certification, which is, which sets it apart from what people were using before, which was, I don't know if I'm getting this 100% correct, DEI, DEIB or something like that. So that was. DEIB, is that the one? GDEIB, yeah. Yeah, so that's the documentation. They went, what happened to them? They just dissolved. Yeah, they dissolved. And so this standard also is UN endorsed. So there are... The UN has sustainability um goals and so this meets a few of them in terms of like gender equity creating gender equity and um you know a few other things so it was created by a queer black man who was what who was the first queer Black man to run for office in the United States, James Felton Keith. Follow him on Twitter, he's very entertaining.
And so in Canada, it's delivered by Ventura Collective. They are two Latinx women, Anna Maria and Linda. Hello. Hi. And so they are the certifiers in Canada. Basically, when something's ISO certified, it means that about over 150 countries, representatives from over 150 countries have looked at something and set quality standards for a given service or product. So people might be familiar with ISOs for various different things. And so it's making its way globally. They're having a conference in Atlanta, and I'm really excited because I'm going to go. And so it's starting to really take off in Latin America. It's being used in France, South Africa. So different countries are adopting the standard. The reason why I was so interested in it is because the way the health authority works in BC is it's an overarching health authority. So, PHSA is Provincial Health Services Authority, but there are different health authorities, specialty hospitals and whatnot underneath that. So, all the different DEI folks for different health regions have come together and said, we want a standard of practice. We want to establish a standard by which we do this work. And then I stumbled upon this. So I have been introducing it to them. I've introduced it to my team. And it's really a good framework because it shows you 27 different diversity types.
It shows you it's a spreadsheet of 171 questions that you can ask in an assessment. And that is scored. So it's called inclusion scores, the parent company. company, and that's James's company. And it's called Inclusion Score because your answer to each of those questions gives you a score. And then that helps to pinpoint in what areas you need to focus on, what areas can wait a little bit. So it shows you how, it shows you a maturity, it's a maturity model is what it is. So it shows you what your maturity level is in regards to different things, governance, procurement, and then depending on what your score is in certain areas, you go, okay, we really need to work on X, Y, Z. So it really helps people that want to engage, want to do the work, are committed to the work, feel it in their heart, but just haven't had a way of actually actioning it out. I see a lot of frustration with that, where people are like, okay, we want to do this work, we want to embed it and incorporate it in everything that we're doing, but how?
And that's always the big question so yeah it's I'm super excited about it's new in Canada I was part of the second cohort um but yeah it's also insurance it's also backed by insurance so um what is starting to happen in the United States is that and I think other countries too, is that insurance is starting to look into this and has interest in it because it can mitigate risk. It's looked at as if you have a sound DEI practice, that you are less of a risk to be sued. In Canada, we think we're not as litigious. However, that it just happens in a different way so in the states there would be full-on like lawsuit um in court in canada what tends to happen more are settlements and so those are things we don't hear about in the news but they happen all the time and insurance companies uh as anybody that's worked for an insurance company, which I have, they don't like to pay out. So in any way that they can not do that, they're interested in. So the assumption is that if you have a structured DEI policy, a plan, what have you, policy, a plan, what have you, that you will be deemed that you are less of a risk to ensure. Interesting.
That is good to know. And I'm going to look into this because it sounds extremely interesting and like it's just give you a good baseline probably of knowledge, even though as I'm not a DEI practitioner, but I think it's important for all practitioners, consultants to inform their work with a DEI and accessibility lens, right? Yeah, yeah. Specific to what I'm doing, you know, making sure we're able to speak the same language, for sure. Yeah, and it also gave me the freedom to acknowledge that DEI is a corporate process.
It's a corporate lifecycle process. And we struggle a lot with that in this work. And that makes some people uncomfortable because they're like, no, this is hard work. This is, you know, human rights. It's all hard work. And unfortunately, once that became a part of corporate hemisphere, let's say, I don't even know how to really describe that. But once you put human rights into a corporate container, it has to have some sort of systems aspects to it for it to be, quote unquote, done. of systems aspects to it for it to be quote unquote done um so i think it's um it acknowledges and it that di is a corporate process because i mean if you ask martin luther king what he was doing he wouldn't say he was doing di work um or you know this is um a corporate entity. It's a, it's a corporate idea.
And it doesn't mean that it's inherently evil. It just means that it's, it's, it's processing its systems. It's a way of systematizing, you know, human relations. So I think it's it's interesting. It's very, So I think it's interesting. It's very interesting how it's done pretty much the impossible. I know there's other models that are like it. The GDIB is not completely different, but I think it just takes it that much further. Well, and like we said, GDIB doesn't exist anymore, as far as I know, which is very disappointing, actually. I saw that last year. But this looks like a very, very valuable alternative. So that's really good. Very cool. Awesome. Thank you so much for coming in for all your knowledge on this topic, Kathleen. Yeah, thank you. I'm happy to have the opportunity to speak to your audience and just chat with you. It's always a joy to talk to you. Is there anything that you're like, just, you know, come in like Columbo at the very end?
Just one more thing that we'd like to, maybe the Columbo reference. Like I'm the oldest apparently. But you know, Columbo, if, if for those of you who don't know who Columbo is, this is Columbo's back in the, I think seventies and eighties, there was a TV show called Colombo and he was a private investigator um and he'd always come in right at the end after he kind of solved the case but nobody knew he'd solved the case and he'd just come back in you know that you thought he was about to leave maybe turn around and say just one more thing and then he'd crack the whole case right yeah i didn't miss him i didn't miss an episode of Murder, She Wrote, but I can't say I've seen too many Columbo episodes. Murder, She Wrote is also a very good, very, very good TV show that we should bring back for sure. That was good. I love that one. But do you have a Columbo moment for us? I do look out for my own podcast. That's in production. And yeah, I'm going to be writing in a lot of other compilations this year.
And I've got a Spotify going and I'm on TikTok. TikTok's going good. Yeah. Just, you know, find me different platforms. I'm everywhere. Um, and, uh, yeah, I think that's, I think that's pretty much about it. I think that I'll be speaking, um, I'll be speaking in Cambridge, Ontario, um, maybe coming to, out to Ottawa to see you. Um, I'll be speaking in Vancouver. So yeah, just, uh, I put it out there and it's coming back to me um about traveling more speaking um writing more um so yeah a lot happening well thank you very much our multi-hyphenate kathleen johnson yeah comedy uh yeah makeup artist and film yeah doing doing it doing it all doing it all uh brilliant but not not all at the same time necessarily yeah I just started getting back into film I've done makeup for a few um local projects here in Victoria.
But I was in IATSE in Toronto. So I have worked on major productions as well. But yeah, it's just anything, any reason to be around creative people, I take it. That's brilliant. Well, I cannot wait to read your book and continue to follow you. And we'll make sure that everything, every possible way you can follow Kathleen will be in the show notes. So stay tuned for that. Yeah.
Thank you so much.
Thanks Kathleen.
Don't forget to stay weird, stay wonderful, and don't stay out of trouble!
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Growing up with dyslexia and in a multicultural household, Nancy has navigated the challenges of being the 'other', and not fitting into societal norms. Now as an Ottawa-based DEI and employee wellness consultant who empowers marginalized and inferior voices, Nancy Cairns aims to create safe and healthy environments where everyone feels valued in corporate. If you've been the 'black sheep' of the herd, then you'll want to listen to this episode as Nancy Cairns addresses the DEI dilemma in corporate !
Stay in Touch with Nancy:
https://ca.linkedin.com/in/nancy-cairns-cwhp-p-8b1503296
Find out more on Nancy and her work:
https://holisticworkwellbeing.ca/
https://harbingermoon.ca/
Script:
Never considered myself racist, of course, but our systems are racist.
This is not a one size fits all process.
Neurotypicals versus neurodivergence, right?
Because really, DEI, ultimately what we're doing is we're asking people to be self-aware.
I'm seeing a lot of folks either like burning out or becoming jaded.
Do the best that you can until you know better. Then when you know better, do better.
Welcome to Weirdos in the Workplace, the podcast that celebrates authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose in our world of work. And I am here with the fabulous Nancy Cairns. Welcome to the show. Hi, thank you so much. It's so good to be here. Absolutely. Glad you're here. So for those of you who don't know Nancy yet, glad you're here. So for those of you who don't know Nancy yet, Nancy is an Ottawa-based DEI and employee wellness consultant, a passionate advocate, innovative thinker, and champion for positive change, seeking to empower and amplify marginalized voices. Welcome to the show, Nancy.
Thank you so much.
Awesome. So this is Weirdos in the Workplace, right? And it wouldn't be a Weirdos in the Workplace episode if we didn't talk just a little bit about what makes you a little bit different or unique, or why were you drawn to this podcast?
Well, I have always felt like a misfit among misfits. You know, growing up, I was diagnosed with dyslexia, which I didn't know until I was well into my 30s, that that actually meant that I was neurodivergent. And that was such a validating experience for me to find out, oh, I'm neurodivergent. I'm not neurotypical. That's why my brain actually does work differently than other people. So I've always felt like I never quite fit in because I viewed things a little bit differently. I also grew up in like a small town, which is a lovely town, love my small town. But I grew up, my mother is Mexican. So that was very, even though I'm, I'm like, I'm clearly white.
I grew up kind of being othered a little bit because of growing up with a different culture, being exposed to a different culture. So I've always, I've always felt like I didn't quite fit in. And then, you know, when you, when you feel that sense of, of not fitting in, you kind of like, what's, what's going on with me? What, what am I doing? So you get into all the, like, I did the Myers-Briggs test and turns out I'm an INFJ, which is like only 2% of the population or something like that is an INFJ. So like all of these validating things that tell me that I am just, I, I, I walk to a different beat than, than a lot of the world. And I've learned that that's actually a beautiful gift and to embrace it. But, uh, you know, it took a long time to get here.
Yeah. Well, you definitely are in the right place. You know, we are definitely trying to reclaim the word weirdo because I think that the folks who listen to this podcast for sure. And a lot of the folks who are guests on the podcast definitely feel or have felt othered, felt like outsiders, have kind of a chip on our shoulder a little bit, like a little bit rebellious because of that. So welcome. And you're definitely, you definitely belong here with us.
Thank you. Thank you so much. Absolutely. But yeah, I know, I know exactly how you feel about like, you know, feeling like you're an outsider and not really knowing how to fit in. So for real, like it's, it's not an easy way to grow up and it definitely leaves a lasting impression on you. And it's probably why, one of the reasons why we're both kind of doing the work that we do. It's so true. I think because so many of us, we, we want to desperately fit in. So we end up masking and we're not our authentic selves as a result because our authentic selves, we feel like that's going to get rejected. Yeah.
So this whole idea of inclusivity is, is very important to me for, for that very reason, because I felt so othered for so long and yeah. yeah well and like you said before people with disabilities people who are neurodivergent have amazing gifts to share with the world that the world would know nothing about you know if we weren't included so and that really sucks yeah it does yeah it does yeah so um I mean that's really part of the the big part of the business case for DI I think is you know it's not just because it's the right thing to do we always hear that it's not just the right thing to do it's also the right thing to do in terms of like the business case. It's the smart thing to do, right? What do you think about that when you hear that?
Oh, I absolutely agree. It's because you're able to tap into workforces like everyone has their skill sets, right? So by having this inclusive, instead of trying to fit everyone into the same box, by having a more inclusive perspective, it allows people the space to bring their best foot forward. And as a result of that, you see more innovation, you see more productivity, you see more engagement. Like if you just think about in your own life, when you're in a situation where you feel a sense of belonging, where you feel really valued, how do you react in those situations? Do you feel like you really want to bring your best? You really want to contribute in a positive way because you feel valued. You feel a part of something, right?
Versus when you're in a situation where you feel like you have to speak a certain way, you can only act a certain way. You're, there's a lot of fear, you know, about, oh, I don't want to, I don't want to say this. I don't want to do that. And so you don't have that space to bring all of the beautiful gifts that you have inside of you as a result. So, so it's this untapped resource that really needs to, I believe it's going to be the future. It's going to bring all organizations into the future if they really start to tap into the humanity of all of us and understanding our humanity and letting us use our gifts together. I think like some people, I sometimes sometimes think like you know we we always lately at least we've been dividing it like neurotypicals versus neurodivergence right I don't know that it I don't know that I prescribe to that you know that binary model really I do feel like some of us are better able to cope with like our modern reality than other people. But this can only benefit everyone, you know, if we take this kind of approach. I think.
Yeah, absolutely. And not just talking about like neurotypicals and, and, you know, like just all of the, like the different know like just all of the like the different intersectionalities all of the different lived experiences the different cultures you know we live in a world now where you can hop on a plane and you can you can see so much of the world um you can live in different countries it's just it's so it's so beautiful and yet we're still trying to force people to act a certain way instead of saying oh what what what kind of lived experience what kind of wonderful um insights can you bring from your perspective from your lens instead we're like it's this very hierarch, this is the way that we have to do things and just toe the line. Right. And then people, people don't like they get just, I think it's just natural. You, you don't want to engage in that, you know, you're just like, okay, I'm just here to get a paycheck. Yeah. I'm just going to do my job, like what's on paper and that's it. You know, there's no curiosity. There's no, you know, freedom to explore. So what's the point? Yeah. Curiosity. That's a, that's a brilliant way of putting it. Having curiosity about, okay, this is something and this is great.
How can we make it even better? What can we do to you know that's how the innovation happens is those people coming with the ideas how can we make things even better and let's all work together let's collaborate let's bring different ideas to the table because if everyone's sitting around a table with the same idea you're just gonna get yeah you know the same product service over and over again so i i talked to a lot of folks who are like dei practitioners di consultants or have lived experience um intersectional experience as part of a marginalized group and who are you know working in their various ways to try to make this sort of culture well trans cultural transformation in organizations um and something that I've noticed that we talked about before Nancy was that I I'm seeing a lot of folks either like burning out or becoming jaded or like feeling like they're pushing a boulder up the hill and like not sure how long they can like stick it out for, you know.
I just wonder, you know, I know this isn't like a utopian dream, you know, that we're talking about here. I talk about it a lot as well in the previous season. I've talked about it quite a bit, kind of this idea of like building learning cultures, building diverse, you know, coaching cultures or learning cultures. building diverse, you know, coaching cultures or learning cultures. So I do think it can happen. And I've seen it happen. It's just so very rare. And oftentimes, it's like a micro culture in an organization, not kind of the overall culture in an organization. So it just feels like we're putting so much energy and time and money into these DEI strategies. And it feels like it's like we're throwing, you know, what's like, I don't know what the metaphor, I'm really bad with metaphors. Anyways, some metaphor about like, you know, just like throwing money in a black hole, basically, you know. Why do I feel that way? If you can put some words into it? Well, I think, I think there's a, there's multiple factors to this.
Um, I think it's an understanding, like a true understanding of, um, the benefits of DEI. I, I think that sometimes leadership, they're very focused on the operations, the day-to-day operations. There might be like some time scarcity. So it's like, we don't have time for this. Because really what we're talking about is like a culture change. And, you know, that might include like changing some systems, changing the way things are done. And that takes time and that takes energy, that takes resources. And when there's this feeling of time scarcity, when there's this feeling of, okay, but I'm trying to keep, keep things afloat, keep the operations afloat. Um, DEI gets pushed to the back burner or it's not done in that like daily habit, embodying it as part of your day-to-day life. Um, and, and that really, in my opinion, that needs to come, that really speaks to like leadership. Leadership really needs to understand and model like the DEI practices, the, the strategies, they have to really just live, live them.
And then that way, when they see, when the employees see their leaders, leadership are truly engaged and truly dedicated to diversity, equity, and inclusion, that's when they'll start to feel safe to, okay, okay, I can make some time for this. This is important. This will lead to positive things for me, if I actually embrace what we're talking about, instead of, well, you just need to do this training, this mandatory training by the end of the year. It's like, no, no, no. Like our leadership are actually talking, walking and talking these practices every day as part of their, the way that they run their shops. So employees feel empowered to embrace it as well. Totally. Yeah.
Do you think it's worthwhile spending a lot of money on DEI initiatives if the senior leadership in the organization isn't like fully bought on, bought in? Honestly? Yeah. No, I don't. No, I think that, that the time and, and the time and money should be going towards coaching, should be going towards training, should be going towards having leadership change their, the way that they think to more of a like servant leadership style, where they're looking at themselves as I am the cultivator of my employees. And then once they're in that mind frame, once they get that, then the next step I think is DEI. But until leadership really understands the importance of their people, it's like throwing money in a black hole yeah in a black hole whatever yeah exactly yeah okay yeah no I that tracks for sure that tracks and I think that is one of the reasons probably why a lot of DEI practitioners are just so frustrated and feeling like they've been banging their heads against the wall and, you know, starting to, I'm starting to see burnout. I'm starting to, like I said, see people become jaded with diversity, equity, inclusion, just I'm hearing from DEI practitioners. I'm so tired of talking about DEI.
Like I'm so tired of it. And that's a bit, it's, it's extremely sad because this is what they're passionate about. Right. And they believe in it and we know it's legitimate, but it's, it's so hard out there right now. It is tough because really DEI, ultimately what we're doing is we're asking people to be self-aware. We're asking people to reflect on themselves. Like some of the, some of the first training that we talk about is like unconscious bias, right? Like understanding unconscious bias and, and, and that can be difficult, you know, especially when you're at capacity yourself to take a, to take a moment, to take a step back, to be self-reflective and to also show empathy for somebody else and their situation when maybe you don't have that lived experience.
Like that's asking a lot. So that's why I think people can feel like they're pushing a boulder up a hill is because what we're asking people to do on an individual basis is to to to actually self-reflect to become self-aware oh maybe some unconscious bias is happening here and to also give themselves the grace to go through that learning process or that unlearning process right and that can be that can bring up some feelings of guilt, some feelings of shame. Like I know I experienced that when I went through my own unpacking of internalized misogyny, you know, I went through my own unpacking of, you know, unconscious bias and, and the racism that just, I, I never considered myself racist, of course, but our systems are racist. Right.
So I'm starting to recognize that and to take ownership of like how I can be anti-racist and taking the next step, like that takes work, that takes energy. And, and I think that's why it's like, it's tough. So again, like going back to what I was saying, it's important that leadership and we have to remember to leadership, they're humans, they're also human, they're dealing with their own stuff, right? So like, as the consultants, we're the ones that we have to create the space, the safe space for them to work through it and get them there so that they can create the safe spaces for their employees and really bring that culture change around, you know? Yeah. How do you know when a leader, sorry, continue. No, no, no, go ahead. I was going to say, how do you know when a leader is like ready to start this work? Or do you know when a leader is ready to start this work? Or do you know? I think just through conversation.
I think it's possible to make a human connection, because really that's what it is. We're all human and seeing each other's humanity and teaching leaders to see their employees as humans too and see their humanity. leaders to see their employees as humans too and see their humanity. So by giving them that experience, we can hopefully help bring them along to that as well. I use the example quite often about when it comes to accessibility, for example. I, of course, love love see the importance of accessibility but I didn't get it I didn't understand it okay till I was a mother on maternity leave with a stroller and a new baby trying to get through the world trying to see like oh oh there's only stairs here where's the ramp you know that's when I truly even though I had the empathy and the compassion for like, yes, we need this. We need, we need accessible infrastructure. I didn't understand it until I lived it. Right. So once, so tapping into that, to people's lived experiences, and that's something that's very independent. So that's why the burnout happens because it's just such a, this is not a one size fits all process. This is something you have to meet people where they're at. Right.
And, and then go from there. Yeah. I mean, it doesn't help that it's like, in order to become a DEI practitioner, that role itself comes with an enormous amount of self-awareness and requirement for context, you know, so you're constantly seeking new perspective, assimilating new perspectives, right. Trying to learn as much as you can about as many different, you know, people's experience, lived experiences as possible, so that you can try to advocate on their behalf as well and integrate that knowledge back into the system. And so just that in itself seems like an enormous amount of work. And then to do that, and then have your efforts not being really appreciated well, you know, and not, you know, feeling like you're really making the impact that you know you could make. That has to be difficult. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I mean, what you're doing in a lot of these cases when you're coming into these environments is these are not inclusive environments. They don't have these, right? So you are having the same experience as their employees are having basically, right?
So you're having to overcome that. But the thing is that they've hired you on to do that. And maybe that's just a gentle reminder of you hired me to do this. So with me, like, let's work together. We both want to obtain the same goal here. Yeah. But that's the really hard part because you're dealing with these environments that aren't necessarily uh very safe psychologically safe inclusive diverse equitable work environment you know that's what they brought you in was to support with that creating that doing that work so it's almost like um it and that's why it's so tough I think it's almost it's nice when you're in a work environment where it's already that it's already like that, right.
It's psychologically safe work environment, um, where the boss is like a servant leader. It's, it's amazing. You can, you feel like you can really thrive, but when you're, when you're a consultant, you're not in that environment necessarily or they're just like at the very beginnings of that and they still need their hand held a little bit to get them further along the road or you're probably unpacking all kinds of trust issues all kinds of you know probably um trauma in the workplace as well you know there's there's a lot to unpack when you start to work with these organizations. I'm not a DEI practitioner, but I can see it from other angles that I went in, you know, other areas where I work with companies. Yeah. It's, it's the wild West for sure. Yeah. Yeah. How do people keep themselves? How do you people like yourself, like, how do you keep yourself healthy through the process? How do you like for the longterm, like you want to be a DEI practitioner, you want to, um, you know, you want to be doing this for a long time, hopefully. How do you keep yourself healthy and motivated? Well, one thing is to learn not to take things personally, to kind of put up a boundary. Even if like you envision a golden bubble around yourself, which I know sounds so woo-woo, but it works. Like just envision yourself in this bubble where nothing can actually touch you. And just know, again, with that self-awareness piece, because we're so self-aware, a lot of times you can recognize like, oh, they're projecting. This is, this is actually their, you know, their thing.
So to not take it home with you and to take it personal and to ruminate on it. And if you do start ruminating on things, because it's natural to do that, especially when it's something that might be stressful or hurtful, you know, that's just part of being human. Yeah. To do grounding, grounding type exercises, journaling. I know I'm not a therapist in any way, but I am a huge advocate for journaling, journaling out how you're feeling, like what, what happened if it's one particular situation that maybe happened, like write it all down. And then you can go back to it, reflect on it. Or if you're like really ticked off, you can rip it up, you know, like physically do something to get rid of those horrible feelings that you might be having um so those are some those are some tips and then for grounding i mean you could you could go on google and find all sorts of grounding techniques but one of my favorites is i'm actually using it right now, because I'm a little bit nervous, I have just something to help me ground that I'm that I'm rubbing. So if you're in a situation where you're feeling stressed to just have something, put it in your hand and, you know, and just focus on that and focus on your breathing. That can help bring you back and be mindful, you know?
So yeah, grounding techniques, journaling, like all of the therapy things, basically, all those things you read about in self-help books and all of that, that really helps with keeping that energy, like protecting your energy, really protecting yourself and protecting your energy not letting them get to you not letting them get you down you know yeah don't let the man get you down guys yeah stick it to the man um no i think that's, that is helpful. Uh, and then the motivation to keep going, like, what do you think about that? Well, I think that it's a, it's probably a good idea for you to have a little strategic session with yourself. Like that's what we do for a living. A lot of times figure out what your why is, what's your why, why am I doing this? Write it down. out what your why is what's it what am I doing this write it down and then if you're feeling like why this is why am I doing this I should just give up go back to it and look at this is why I'm doing this is that enough is that still enough yeah and if not know, you have to take care of yourself. Yeah. Excuse me. Totally. All good. Um, yes, you do need to take care of yourself first for sure. And I think taking breaks is okay. And I think having diversified work is okay too. Like maybe it would just be too much to do like a hundred percent DEI consulting for some people. That's, that's okay. Like do, do, you know know you can have two side hustles there's two hustles two full-time muscles yeah absolutely that's actually that's a great great idea great advice yeah or um or it doesn't even have to be a side hustle could be a hobby like just take some time and do that hobby that makes you happy yeah so that you don't burn yourself out yeah yeah and take breaks yeah take breaks for sure breaks are super important sometimes if I've gotten all my stuff done I let myself play Zelda on my um Nintendo Switch for like 20 or 30 minutes nice my break time yeah how about? What's your favorite break thing? I go for a walk. I like to go for a lunchtime walk. And I block off my schedule. Like sometimes you can't help it. You have to, sometimes you have to have a lunchtime meeting.
But I really try and respect that time. That's my self-care time. That's my time to reset. So lunchtime, I go for a little 15, 20 minute walk at lunch. And then I do what I call my meditation nap. Oh, cool. Tell me more. minute, 10 minute meditations on it. And I found one that I really love in particular. And it's like, it's a meditation nap and it puts you into a trance. So it's just like this 10 minute refresher nap. And it just gives me energy for the after, like to get through the afternoon. Oh, I think that sounds like a great idea. I love it. I'm going to have to Google that the meditation nap. Yes, please. I might do that right away after, after this recording session, I might do that. That sounds fun. It's so funny now that I'm like an old lady that I like, Ooh, sleeping is the best time of my day. It really, but it really but it really is it's so you know when we're talking about self-care like getting enough sleep is so important for your like for your well-being overall is getting enough sleep so that's another like just tip overall make sure you're getting enough sleep actually yeah like you're right a lot of it comes back to like are you sleeping are you eating properly are you hydrating are you getting some exercise like and if you're doing those four things then you know hopefully you're on the right track at least right yeah yeah exactly and if you're going through like a rough patch give yourself grace like don't be too hard on yourself but try and make that like your your constant you know like that's your regular that's what you go back to right yeah and don't let one difficult client yeah don't let one difficult client get you down you know because there are lots of difficult clients out there yeah sure yeah don't give them that power over you right don't don't give don't give other people too much power over your own well-being you have to you have to again not take it personally and just that energy out. Right. Yeah. Exactly. It's easier said than done, but like the, I think usually the first thing that happens before you find the answer is you ask the question, right?
So if you want to figure out how to, you know, separate yourself from that emotion or whatever, from that energy, you have to ask the question, how do I separate myself from that energy? So yeah, well, it's true. I think it's been true for me. We'll put it that way. So in our previous conversation, we started talking about like how DEI can be quite performative sometimes for a lot of organizations. And sometimes even folks go so far as to bring DEI practitioners into their organizations and it just becomes this performative sort of event that happens. And I know that that gets people down because they are not making the impact like they wish they would. So how do we know if a client, if we think a client, if there's like red flags, how would you, how would you know whether you thought someone was being performative or whether they were serious? If they're willing to do the work or not, you know, the very first steps are, are getting a baseline, checking in with employees and stuff so if they're not interested in working with employees and getting their feedback about how they're feeling um and they just want you to come up with a strategy right like yeah just put together a strategy for us and we'll implement it like no no no this is something that has to be co-designed. There has to be buy-in from all players, like leadership, HR needs to be there. If it's unionized environment, union needs to be there. And of course, employees, frontline staff, you know, everyone needs to be at the table to start building this, this culture of diversity, equity, and inclusion to create that sense of belonging. Everyone needs to be part of that conversation. So if there's a client that's, that's not interested in doing that and just wants you to like give them some sort of template, then that's, to me, that's very, that's performative. They don't actually want to do the work. They just want to check mark DEI off their little strategic list for the year or whatever. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And similarly, probably with like the DEI training, you know, the, like you said, like the yearly compliance training or what it's named compliance training, but the yearly, the training that they, you know, they might, they might provide to their employees. Yeah.
And then are they taking it themselves? Like it's leadership also taking this mandatory training or are they just getting their employees to do it? You know, like they also have to be attending these and, and it would be great if they're in the same meetings as their employees. Right. Oh yeah. Again, they're modeling that, that behavior, that, that embracing of this culture. Yeah. Okay. So let's put a little checklist together since leaders love checklists. Okay. If you're a leader in an organization and you want to build DEI practices, you want to build DEI practices, inclusionary practices within your organization, because you know that like in theory, at least it should help with performance. It should help with retention, help with the bottom line and the top line. What do we need to tell them to do? What do you absolutely need to do? Obviously modeling you mentioned so modeling the behaviors which behaviors specifically nancy um the including diversity equity inclusion lenses to everything that they're doing on a daily basis so in team meetings you know being very inclusive. Do do staff feel like they can speak up? Do they do they feel safe to speak up? Is everyone's opinion? Does it seem like it matters in meetings? they have? Like, are they, are they trying to hire more diverse candidates or when it comes to going up the ladder, you know, I've heard feedback before about the importance of seeing somebody that looks like them in leadership, right?
So trying to build that up so that people feel like they have an opportunity to grow. And here's an example, a very specific example that really changed in terms of wellness, really changed my perspective. I came from a very toxic work environment where it was like 24 seven, go, go, go. You ate lunch at your desk, you know, if you ate lunch at all. And then I moved into a new environment that definitely was very diversity, equity, inclusion, employee wellness type of work environment. And my boss, my direct boss came by my office and I was eating lunch at my desk because that's, that's what it was normal for me. And they said, Nancy, go take your, go take your lunch. It's on shower. Go take your lunch. Like stop right now and go take your lunch. I'm going to, I'm taking my lunch too right now. So you go, go take your lunch. And that like getting that permission by, by my boss to actually go leave my desk, take my lunch and to see that they were actually like leaving the building and going and taking their lunch as well. That was so impactful. Right.
So just like something that kind of, that's what I mean when I say modeling that behavior is, you know, taking your lunch, taking your vacation, not emailing after hours. And you know what? I understand that sometimes that's what happens with with management, like with leadership. But then if that's the case, don't send the email like after hours. Schedule it so that it goes during work hours so that i've also seen where like where there's like a little tag added added at the end i don't know if you know that one where it's like um this is the time that works for me but you answer when it works for you kind of thing yeah Yeah. Which, which is great too. I, in my opinion, I think it's better to schedule it because people are still getting that, that message on their phone from their boss and they're looking at it. Right. So just don't disrupt them at all after work hours. So like, that's, that's the kind of modeling of behavior. Recognize being vulnerable in front of their employees. You know, that's another big one, like showing their own humanity, um, admitting like, I don't actually know what the answer is here, or I made a mistake, you know, we made a mistake and that's on me. Like that, that's all the type of modeling of behavior, um, that creates that trust, building that trust, like you were talking about earlier, how you're going into places where maybe the trust has been broken.
All of that, I think, helps build that trust by modeling that behavior, by seeing that action of your leadership doing that kind of stuff. Totally. Yes. And that is literally what leading by example means. And it's interesting how few people do that well like it it feels like like what you just did like creating a list of actual behaviors like in scenarios this is what people need to see it's like and then and then building that like discipline right to actually implement it regularly and consistently is difficult. Like I remember we worked with one team a few years ago and they did this whole culture. Well, they want to do this whole like team building, cultural transformation thing, right? And one of the things was, you know, we want to take Fridays off in the summer, but the problem is leadership team always ends up working and everyone else kind of knows that because they just weren't disciplined or they didn't have the processes, the systems to be able to like, you know, take the Friday off. So it was like, nothing, it's not going to work, you know, like you want everyone to have Friday off. Well, guess what? Nobody's going to take Friday off. If they know that the leadership team is working, it's just going to be, it's like a trickle down, right? The leadership team is working Friday.
And then all of a sudden, like, because they're sending emails, the manager is going to start checking emails and they're going to start working Fridays. And then everyone else is going to follow suit because it's like, you know, the person who's not doing it then is sort of on the outside, right? The person who's actually implementing, like they're like following, oh no, we were supposed to have Friday off. Just following, you know, they're going to end up being the one on the outside. So all that to say, yeah, lead by example. Yeah. And I think you've brought up a really good point as well around and planning for it, having the proper cover off set up so that this is something that can actually happen so that you're implementing it and you're implementing it well. So instead of just saying, okay, we're going to just start taking Fridays off. Well, how are we going to do that? How are we going?
This is the goal. We want to take Fridays off. Let's chunk that out. What do we need to do in order to achieve this goal altogether? And that, that piece can sometimes be missing. And then it, you know, and then it looks bad for all DEI initiatives because they're not being implemented in a thoughtful way. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. You know, something like a, like a four day work week is simple in, in some ways, you know, because it's either you're either, either you have to work more hours during the rest of the week, or you have to adjust amount of work you know there's really no other way to go about it um but yeah it's um it's interesting so uh I know we both want to like kind of like burn it down and rebuild it what are you doing to help shake things up this year me personally yeah what are you doing what am I doing what am I doing to burn it all down um burn it all down but you know let's say shake it up well you know I I think whenever I'm I'm working with anyone that's the attitude that I'm taking. You know, I, I think, thankfully, I'm in a position where I can be discerning about which clients I want to work with.
So if, if I don't see that they actually want to do that change, then I'm not going to put my time and energy and my skills towards that. But again, not everyone has that opportunity. Right. And I think just, I've been really educating myself as much as possible about everything that I possibly can in terms of, you know, all the different, when it comes to intersectionality, all the different identities you know, all the different, when it comes to intersectionality, all the different identities, so that I can bring a better understanding when I'm coming to the table and I'm supporting others. It's hard for me to support others when I don't necessarily understand things. So the way that I'm trying to support with creating new systems is like understanding exactly how these systems are hurting marginalized communities. So educating myself, you have to know that there's an issue, right, before you can fix it.
So by being able to recognize what the issues are, hopefully I can go in and help support with doing that fixing. Yeah, that's awesome. How about you? How am I shaking things up? Well, we have the train to help project, of course. And that is our technology membership platforms. It's a membership platform, software membership platform for retail businesses to help them become more inclusive to people with disabilities. And our pilot starts in August and then we're going live in October, November. And it's, yeah, it's a lot, but it's going to be very, very cool. So we're really serving sort of two underrepresented groups in that not a lot of people work directly with retailers and we're serving people with disabilities. So we're, you know, it's pretty cool. That's amazing. That's very exciting. Thank you. And from like the research that I've been doing, when employees have access to resources like that, it can make a huge difference in terms of their engagement, in terms of their wellness altogether. That's incredible. Congratulations.
I hope it goes well oh yeah so far it's it's been really interesting it's funny how like people who get it really get it and then people who've never have don't have any lived experience with disabilities whatsoever like no friends or family in them or themselves don't get it at all like and this is where we start to roll the ball up the boulder uphill right yeah anyway yeah and it speaks to what we were talking about earlier with it's that lived experience and asking people to see the humanity in others and it's very it's very difficult for people you know we're all we're all living our lives we're all in our own bubbles dealing with our own problems and uh you know and asking people to go outside of that can be can be hard can be tricky and um yeah and it's something that we have to do like societally which is why we need to burn it all down so that we're all you know taught to be more compassionate to be more empathetic towards each other to see each other's humanity and value each other's humanity instead of um you know in historically there's been this belief of like superiority based on your race or based on whether you have money or not or you know like your health yeah your beauty yeah exactly exactly um all those different identities again on that wheel of power and influence um so that's like now i'm really dreaming of a utopia. I know, I know. Asking, you know, for everyone to see each other's humanity, but hopefully one day. You know what?
I am raising three teenagers. I have 19, 17 and 15 year old kids. And I have a lot of hope for that generation they're pretty cool you know and they really do I do think that they're they've got a lot of built-in empathy that some I mean obviously I don't know all of them but from the folks that I have seen I'm very impressed with I think they're going to be good leaders that's amazing that. That gives me hope. You've got to have hope because if you don't have hope, then why even get out of bed? What's the point? Lay down forever. Thank you. That's really, that's good to hear. That's amazing. It's been really nice to have you on the podcast. I really appreciate this conversation. So thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah. Is there anything, a final little thought maybe that you have for the folks listening? Yes. Yes. Okay. So I did, I picked out a quote. I'm I'm a little bit nervous so I'm gonna put it right here in front of me and try and read it out so this is uh by Maya Angelou who I absolutely adore incredible um I also am like I have a communications background, as I mentioned, and I love to write.
And I just think she's a brilliant writer and so insightful and so strong and amazing and an inspiration. So this is a quote from her and it says, do the best that you can until you know better than when you know better, do better. And I think that really speaks to diversity, equity, and inclusion, you know, and giving yourself that grace as you're going through that, that learning and that understanding. And then once you, once you gain that learning and that understanding, then do better. Yeah. And then if we all just do that, the world would be like a happy rainbow sunshine place we would imagine all the people you know yeah i love that oh well thank you so much Nancy we'll we'll chat soon we'll have you back on the podcast maybe next year how does that sound awesome great thank you
Don't forget to stay weird stay wonderful and don't stay out of trouble.
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In this episode of Weirdos in the Workplace, host Erin Patchell welcomes back executive coach Eleanore Eaves to discuss her groundbreaking concept of "corporate grief." Eleanore introduces this new term, explaining how it encompasses the emotional impact of workplace events like layoffs, mergers, and even personal tragedies on employee performance and organizational success.
Key topics include:
The $8.9 trillion cost of employee disengagement How toxic positivity fails as a strategy in the workplace The importance of acknowledging grief and difficult emotions at work Similarities between corporate grief and generational trauma Practical approaches for leaders to address and manage corporate griefEleanore also shares details about her upcoming executive retreat in Scotland, featuring experts in mental resiliency, mindfulness, and change management.
Join us for an insightful conversation on bringing humanity back to the workplace and transforming how we handle difficult emotions in professional settings. Learn why addressing corporate grief is crucial concept for employee retention, engagement, and organizational success.
#CorporateGrief #WorkplaceCulture #EmployeeEngagement #LeadershipDevelopment #OrganizationalChange
Stay in Touch: https://www.linkedin.com/in/eleonore-eaves
Website: https://eavescoaching.com/
Script:
We don't want to talk about grief. We don't want to talk about death. We don't want to talk about all these different aspects of life that is part of life.
Toxic positivity is not a strategy.
And as you can imagine, that A shocked a lot of people.
Stories last forever, right? The echoes of the bad experiences get passed down to the next group of employees.
Welcome to Weirdos in the Workplace, the podcast that celebrates authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose in our world of work. And I'm here with my friend, Eleanor Eves. Welcome back, Eleanor. Thank you so much for having me back. I'm super excited to have you back. And I'm really excited about this topic that we're going to be talking about. But before I get there, those of you who did not come or you haven't listened to Eleanor's previous podcasts on Weirdos in the Workplace with me, go back to season one and definitely listen to them because she's awesome. Eleanor is the founder of Eve's Coaching and couldn't in case you couldn't tell if you're listening to this on Spotify or Apple Music or a podcast platform, you won't be able to actually see us. But it does say Eave's coaching right in the top right hand corner of her of her screen there. And that is the that is her business, Eave's coaching and Eleanor is an amazing executive coach and soon to be author. executive coach and soon to be author.
Thank you very much.
Yes, absolutely.
So Eleanore, please introduce this topic because it is it is a quite it's a serious topic. It's a very human topic. And I'm really excited to talk about this with you.
Yes, thank you. So it's it's a coin. It's a term I am coining as... Hold on, let me refresh that. Okay, I figured that's where she could cut it off, right? So yes, thank you very much.
So corporate grief is a term I am coining to describe a range of actions of individuals who are processing emotions and events in a number of different ways. But all of these events and their actions as a result have real dollars and cents implications, both for their own career trajectory, but also too for the organizations within which they operate. So this is beyond looking at mental wellness or workplace culture and environments and all of that from an emotional or from a psychological point of view, that how does this actually impact performance? How does this actually impact very measured, tangible things such as dollars and cents. Okay. So corporate grief, this is a new term that you've developed or that you've coined. Okay. And this isn't, this isn't, this is not currently like a buzzword anywhere. No, I really haven't seen it around a lot. This is why I kind of came up with it. It's basically taking what we understand from the scientific aspects of the neurobiology and psychology of grief and trauma, but placing it within the context of corporations and how they operate, right? So I'm sure for the majority of your listeners, the most easily to understand approach is after a merger or after a corporate acquisition, when there are mass layoffs, or if there are mass layoffs for other reasons. What we tend to see is those who are left within their jobs or who are able to maintain their positions have some level of survivor's guilt, right?
Now, the survivor's guilt, as you can imagine, has runoff effects. In a very interconnected world as we are, it's not just a very isolated feeling like it maybe was in 30, 40 years ago, but it's a world where people are consistently engaging with fellow colleagues, right? Whether it be on social media, via text messages, WhatsApp, whatever the case may be. So they're never really separated from it. And so these feelings compound and in a world as well, where, you know, news is easily acceptable or accessible in any different environment.
Okay, hold on. And as well, you know, in a world where it's very easy to, to continuously be in contact with, with anyone, these feelings compound and it does impact their performance, especially at a time where they could either have an opportunity to grow within an organization or where the organization really, really needs them to be doing additional work because now it's critical times, right? There are less people, there's more work to do, there are far more pressures. So we're looking at it from multiple different angles okay so just I'm unpacking all of the things that you've said and there's so much here okay so let me just let me stream of consciousness smart for a minute at you yeah if you don't mind love it love it so what I'm picking up I'm I'm thinking when as you're talking I'm thinking about generational trauma right yes and we know, I'm thinking about generational trauma, right?
And we know we have a language for generational trauma when it comes to us as individuals, we're, we're beginning to have a language. Those of us who've thought about this have maybe gone to therapy, have done some personal development. Those of us, you know, we have a generation of trauma and we generally have a relatively consistent framework for that. We don't talk about this in the context of corporations.
So I think this is interesting. You know, when they say, okay, let me process this as I'm talking. Cause you know, I'm an out loud thinker. Cause I don't, I can't think of it. Love it. So corporations, we always say that people aren't like human employees. What other kind of employees are there? AI employees? People are less, they're jumping from job to job all the time. They're less committed to one job, it feels like, right? But if you think about that, if you flip it from the employer perspective, over the last 60 years, since the 1960s, employers have also become less committed to their employees. Yes. Right? Absolutely. And so when I'm thinking about generational trauma and corporations, it almost feels like, you know, when you talk about generational trauma and people you're talking about, there's, you know, 20 to 40 years between each generation. Yeah.
You know, if you look at, um, the way, you know, human being, human biology, um, changes over, you know, decades and millennia and centuries and millennia, like how slowly that our biology changes, how slowly we adopt like in an evolutionary way. When you think about like, you know, a cockroach or a small mammal, how they adopt in an evolutionary way, it's much faster because they have much faster reproduction, right? Yes. And so they can, their biology changes more quickly. They're more able to adapt to their environment because like their genetics change. You know, this is why we can breed show dogs or whatever, because, you know, well, we can be very intentional about breeding them and producing very specific characteristics because, you know because their biology, their lives are shorter essentially, right?
And they grow adults so much faster than humans. So the way I'm putting this all together, it feels like we almost have like a generational, like a trauma evolution within the workplace, within a corporation that has been see this is me processing out loud it's not I'm not doing very well at it but you know it's almost like it's been condensed right in a way it's the the grief process the the trauma has been condensed you know because of this rapid turnover like the the build-up of this trauma among people in such a short period of time does that resonate at all with you like I'm you know what I'm I don't know if you're picking up what I'm putting down here I I think I am. And correct me if I'm not understanding what you're putting down properly. But no, you're absolutely right. And, you know, there's, when we talk about organizational legacies and cultures as well, we also have to understand that there are organizational storytelling and things that get passed down it's not just the good it's not just you know how do we operate and that sort of stuff but it is not the good right exactly um but these institutionalized um sources of grief also compound. And this is where you start getting, you know, the disengagement and disenfranchised sources of grief, right?
So there are terms that we could take from, uh, from other studies such as thanatology. Um, so for instance, like disenfranchised grief would be when a person um does not feel as though their experiences are being acknowledged within their within their environment right so think of you know for those of us who own pets when we lose a pet who we could consider to be like a child a lot of people won't understand that. And so we're left to our own devices, right? We don't have grieving days for that, right? Or other instances within organizations. So you get this form of, as you rightfully said, generational trauma, but that generational trauma could also be uh the organizational culture depending on what that looks like do people feel that they have a right to treat others a certain way because they survived that yeah right and i intentionally use the term survived it doesn't mean that it was okay i mean to survive that um well like you say those stories last forever right the echoes of the the bad experiences get passed down to the next group of employees right yeah exactly and i mean you know when we when we try to put a number behind it i mean there was a great Lola Gallup report. I don't know if you had a chance to see it. It was just released at about 3 a.m. this morning here on the eastern coast. And, you know, they measured the cost of disengagement between employees as $8.9 trillion in American dollars. This is an American statistic. This is the United States.
They yeah, global, but that's $8.9 trillion. Right. I mean, that's good chunk of change due to just low engagement of staff. Right. And I mean, I laugh because it's these things that a lot of times we tend to overlook. We tend to think that we're too busy to care about such things, that we have other pressing concerns. Right, performance. And so the, but you know, the, it's laughable when you actually think about what does this mean for employee retention? What does this mean for the war for talent, for succession pipelines, for, you know, actual sustainability of an organization? so can you tell me like a story can you can we put this in a narrative format of something that you've experienced or that you've a client's experience maybe without naming names yeah you know um well I'll give more of one experience that was a little bit more personal to me. But I think it definitely resonated or would resonate with your viewers here. I remember one of my earlier jobs, you know, in my mid-20s, I was working for an office and the manager had unfortunately committed suicide. Oh, dear. And as you can imagine that that a shocked a lot of people um it was it was so soon for a lot of people and uh you know but in hindsight everyone kind of thought they saw the signs right um and? And it's exactly that, though. What do we do with that? What do we do with the signs?
How do we process our grief? How do we process our trauma? And just because we weren't, you know, his spouse and children doesn't mean that we also too didn't feel something. Right. Right. Yeah. And I'll never forget it when when you know the hr person at the time actually could not go into his office to collect his his things um so she asked me to do it and sure you know i i was able to to assist her in that but that again just shows that you know there are so many different aspects of one's job of one's life there are organizational stressors there are personal stressors we are all coming into the workplace with a past with a history that nobody knows about nobody needs to know about to be perfectly honest right that's your right to decide whether or not you want to share that or not um but it's looking at how can we manage the things we can manage what are our roles as leaders as individuals how do we show up and support one another what does this look like how do we maintain engagement?
So the organization was actually very forward for its time and, you know, ensured that there were counselors on site, you know, supporting anybody and provide free counseling for anyone who wanted to speak immediately. to speak immediately. But I also was fascinated by this line of work and by this corporate grief idea, because that also too, right there showed me how we, we have this almost toxic positivity around life in so many ways, right? We don't want to talk about grief. We don't want to talk about death. We don't want to talk about all these different aspects of life that is part of life yeah so if we live in a very sterilized way and approach such critical issues in a very sterilized way we get what we have right now so what would it look like if we actually not necessarily embrace it, but, you know, approach it with the normality in which it does exist? Yeah. Just pause for a minute to acknowledge that, acknowledge it and allow people to feel what they need to feel before then moving on, you know, to, you know, the next project or the next task or the next thing. We definitely don't take enough pauses.
And I think a lot of that is, you know, us humans, we're really good at like distracting ourselves, you know, from stuff, right. From stuff we don't want to think about something that's hard, something that, you know that you know difficult conversations difficult feelings um sort of like airbrushing everything in order to just yeah move on and i'm just as guilty of that as everybody else you know um yeah of course i mean we we all are right there are times when we're more capable of handling that sort of thing and there are times when we're more capable of handling that sort of thing. And there are times when we're not, right? So whether we call it energy conservation or audits or, you know, you're right. There, you know, we all have our good days, our bad days, all of that. That's fine. But it's also to acknowledging that part of life is that bad, unfortunately. So if we acknowledge that it does exist and it will always exist, what does it look like if we actually try to approach it in a very strategic way?
What does it look like if we say, okay, we know that this is a baseline within which we are willing to accept, you know, some level of, of grief. This is what we're going to do to ensure it doesn't get to critical levels. And even when, you know, it does happen, this is what we're going to do to ensure some level of, not just a safety measure, but, you know, ensuring that people are actually equipped and able to bounce back. For sure. Because that's really the critical part, right? Yeah. And toxic positivity is not a strategy. No. Had I done that, got the t-shirt, didn't work. Didn't work. No, it doesn't. Because, you know, emotions are going to bubble up no matter what right and the more you try to keep shoving them down and not acknowledging them the worse it gets exactly right and it also leads to the the disengagement that a lot of people feel yeah people can tell when you know if an organization says things like oh we're a family those are now very much red flags well I mean then there's everyone has a different definition of what a family like you know what is your experience in a family you know may not be someone else's experience so um and often isn't you know we talked about generational trauma so exactly yeah um okay so do you have like a framework developed yet or is that in the works on like what is like what is a what what belongs is under this umbrella of corporate grief. Is that starting to formulate itself?
Absolutely. And I won't go too, too, too much into it, because I would love for people to read the book when it comes out. Yeah, hopefully soon. But essentially, it is approaching it from multiple different lenses, right? So first, we we understand that there's the personal side of things and the organizational side of things, right? The personal side, we list it in a way to encourage individuals to acknowledge that that exists, right?
So when you're engaging with other humans, and you're stressed out about your life, remembering that they are also stressed out about their own, whether it be their marriage their kids their finances whatever the case may be um you know we we all have a million and one things going through our minds so that's just a right check box i acknowledge that the part that we focus that on is the organizational stuff right so it's that as we mentioned earlier you know the culture the people the leadership um you know what does what does that look like and now there is no one-size-fits-all approach either right because every organization is different and everyone has their idea of what good is, right?
Some of us have a very dark sense of humor. We're not going to be for everyone, right? Nope. But it's very much acknowledging that what might be okay for some won't be for others, and that's fine. But it's understanding what it means for your organization for yourself as a leader right what is the best standard for you your gold standard sorry i should say so then with that settled then we start looking at okay well what are your baseline measurements, right? Like, let's start putting some numbers into this. Are people, are your staff absolutely knackered of doing another survey because they don't see a value in it?
Okay, then we have to start with trust-building exercises, right? If they actually do trust that the surveys will be responsibly managed and utilized, then great. Let's start doing some surveys. Let's start actually assessing what this means as a baseline target. And then where do you want to go? Right. There are countless studies out there now and of just showing that if you engage staff and actually ask them directly what it is you want to see surprise surprise it could transform an organization right i think one of the best case examples was uh i believe it's pronounced and now the uh behemoth american uh medical insurance organization who at the early 2000s was losing a million dollars a day a little bit of money was losing a million dollars a day. A little bit of money. So, I mean, that was an industry where they really should not have. And they did exactly that, right?
The CEO at the time actually sat down and interviewed, surveyed the staff, got their feedback on all of that. And they saw that the staff were actually really engaged. They actually wanted to do their jobs well. What caused the disengagement were other things that made the staff feel like they weren't being listened to, that they weren't being valued, all those different things. So even something as simple as saying, you know, staff disengagement, okay, well, what is the actual source of that? staff disengagement. Okay. Well, what is the actual source of that? Yeah. Right. So it's very much multifaceted, but it is a way of understanding all the complexities within a corporation, within performance measurements, as well as organizational goals, outcomes and finances, you know, putting the dollars and cents down into it and approaching it from that lens. Okay. So, so it sounds like a little bit of a manual. Does that sound about right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That's, a working title for the book is a corporate manual. That's cool. Yeah. So I'm picking up what you're putting down, obviously.
So you're actually wanting to make this like a practical guide? Yes, very much a practical guide. And there will be online modules as well available to actually help work through the stuff. So the book will act more of like a primer, let's say. And then the online modules will provide individuals opportunities to actually think through and work through the different scenarios and apply it within their unique context. And then there is also the retreat in Scotland as well, in September. Yes, that's right. Okay, so give me an update on the retreat. So the retreat is for executives, senior leadership, team members, and really looking at, you know, getting 15 individuals in a room, and working through their unique problems. So there are going to be an amazing assortment of speakers out there as well. Everything from the likes of James Elliott, who actually created the mental resiliency program for the British military.
Myself, obviously talking about corporate grief. My co-host for the event, Jody Wilding, looking at things like mindfulness, to other individuals who will be looking at topics such as emotional intelligence, tackling or overcoming resistance in change management, you know, really getting buy-in of individuals, mixture of everything from corporate to military and up and down and all around. That's very cool. I've looked at your speakers and they seem very impressive. And I love the direction of this because I'm like, why doesn't anyone realize we're at war here? Honestly, like it's crazy to me. Like we have, there's so many, so many like existential problems right now in the world. Like we need to put our armor on a little bit, you know, like look at like, seriously, like it's, it's, you know, if we're going to show our soft underbelly. Yeah. You know what I mean? If we're going to expose ourselves and be vulnerable, we also, we have to find the inner fortitude to be able to do that. Right. To me, that's like, that's essential for leaders today, isn't it? I cannot agree more. I mean, it's, it's absolutely essential.
And, you know, even when we use certain terms, it's funny how two different people will have a different understanding of that term. Like war, you mean? War, but, you know, A little more, but, you know, even to terms such as resiliency. Yeah. Does resiliency mean shut up and do the work? You know, stiff upper lip it? Or does resiliency actually mean, you know, finding strategies to actually be sustainable? Right. Yeah. Or vulnerability. It's another one. And, you know, again, how much vulnerability do people want to express? Right.
What does it mean to be vulnerable? Right. And even these types of conversations creates that tension even between different generations, as we see, right? How much of yourself are you meant to be showing in the workplace? Yep. And in different given situations, you know, um, even within the workplace, we can't paint it with a broad brush. There's exactly micro cultures. There's relationships you have. There's, you know, you're going to have different relationships with different people, different scenarios, um, and being adaptable, right? This is the, probably the order of the day, I would think. Absolutely. There's, there are massive nuances between every location, whether it's cultural, linguistic, whatever the case may be. I mean, these sorts of things really need to be finally discussed, right? So how do you differentiate your work?
So you're taking a very different angle towards this than other folks who are talking about, you know, performance, or wellness, or, you know, agility, like, tell me a little bit about like the why you decided to take this angle I take this angle because I feel like I I know that that grief response quite well given my my professional background and you know the the kinds of uh roles I've I've taken. So that has luckily and academically as well has given me a really good foundation to understand human behavior in very nuanced ways. Combined with coaching individuals from some of the largest layoffs that we've seen, you know, making front page news by the tens, by the dozens, I should say it, you know, it really has enabled me to see what works and what doesn't. So when people come back to you and say, wow, you know, that was far more transformative than I actually thought possible.
And, you know, this is what I was actually able to do now with my life and my career it is incredibly rewarding and it feels like okay so there's definitely something in this yeah right and oddly enough it just starts with actually hearing people where they're at understanding that grief trauma all of that it's not linear it's very much cyclical and so understanding that a person could be very much okay one day yeah but they won't be the next and that's okay that's part of this process. And I mean, grief is one of the most profound emotions that we can feel as human beings. And it sticks around probably the longest, I would think as well. I don't know a lot about grief from a, you know, behavioral perspective, but that's how it's felt with me from a personal perspective. Absolutely. Right. And so it's understanding do do they have the supports and strategies to overcome it or does it become complex grief so complex grief is more of when it does linger um in a way right that is no longer helpful i'm not saying that grief in and of itself is helpful but as you can imagine um when the event is fresh, obviously it's going to still be a very raw wound. The question then becomes, you know, as it grows, are we looking at complex grief within organizations? What does that mean for their teams?
Right. Well, this is very valuable work that you're doing and research that you're doing and writing that you're doing and thinking that you're doing and all the actions that are coming from this. So I really, hopefully we can have you on back on the show, maybe this fall, winter, and you can talk about like the evolution of this project.
I would love, I think hopefully everyone would love to hear more about that thank you yeah it's uh it's fascinating work and it's really rewarding to also see the similarities even between different sectors right so this is why i chose this this kind of work um because at the end of the day we're all humans and for the most part our behaviors are pretty much predictable regardless of sector there's some nuances for sure but if we're looking at these larger systemic based issues and yeah it's we're all still humans we all still operate the same way our brains still operate the same way you know we still fire off the same chemicals the same way yeah and i can definitely see having this having even more of an impact in certain sectors for example i know that folks who work for different government agencies working on reconciliation are going through a lot of that grief and trauma work they have you know because it brings up so many feelings having to deal with you know missing and murdered indigenous women and children.
It's awful, awful, awful. I can only imagine the kind of feelings that, you know, that would surface in that line of business. Right. Yes. And great work that they do, but so difficult. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. But you know, that that grief and trauma also extends to even bankers, right? So even if we're looking at people with mass layoffs from banking, and not to, you know, belittle any profession or anything like that, right? Or say that one is exactly the same or akin to the other obviously they're they're massive nuances um but the range of experiences uh or emotions that we express and the way they they are manifested are are very similar and it's kind of like that that old saying um i have no idea where it came from but you know thieves don't need to identify each other when they cross at night. You know, a person who has gone through grief, if you have as well, you understand that intrinsically.
Yeah. I mean, every single person on the planet will go through it at some point. Yes. Yeah. So there's no point trying to hide around it. But actually trying to understand what can we do with it now? Or what are we going to do to actually overcome it? Yeah. Awesome. Or support each other through it probably too, right? Exactly. Well, yeah, exactly.
And you know, understanding too, that it's not you know a leader's role to take on the psychological burden or therapeutic role or anything like that right and i think that's another distinction that needs to be made um they are also sad they are also hurting right um it's not easy to be laying off that many people and the number of times i've interviewed people who've done mass layoffs they really struggle no doubt yeah right uh it's not easy on anyone obviously the person losing their their livelihood is going to take it very poorly obviously um but it's not a pleasant situation for anyone.
No, no. And so there are a lot of emotions attached to it. You know, it's especially for a lot of professionals. It's how they identify themselves. It's their ego. It's their sense of self. It's their identity. It is. It's a number of different things. Yeah. So many things to think about. Thanks for joining me, Eleanor. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
Did you have any final words or words of wisdom or thoughts that you wanted to share before we sign off? Well, you know, thank you very much for having me here. And if anyone's interested in learning more or understanding how corporate grief could better assist them and their organization through changes, I mean, I also kind of view this as an evolution of change management practices and best practices.
So if this is something that interests them, yeah, please do reach out, youthscoaching.com. Fantastic.
Thank you.
Thank you. interest them um yeah please do reach out eavescoaching.com
Fantastic
Thank you
Thank you
Don't forget to stay weird stay wonderful and don't stay out of trouble!
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Intro:
The coach may not play the game, but the coach inspires and motivates the players to play the best game possible! Join our discussion with leadership coach and entrepeneur Garen Jemian on how to implement a successful coaching culture in your workplace to inspire your employees.
Stay in touch:
https://ca.linkedin.com/in/garenjemian
Website:
https://www.inspireship.com/
Script:
To put on the coach's mindset is to let the other person have the dopamine hit.
You need to have more influence so you can share this with the world.
It takes a lot of time and energy and prioritization to do something that's a long game rather than a short game.
Coaching is where one person focuses their time and energy and presence on helping another one achieve their outcomes.
Welcome to Weirdos in the Workplace, the podcast that celebrates authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose. And I'm so happy right now to be joined by my very good friend, Garen Jemian, who I feel like I haven't seen your face for months because you've been MIA. You've been working. What's that about? Garen, continue. What were you going to say? Nothing. continue what were you gonna say nothing nothing um garen is a phenomenal leadership coach highly experienced working with all different sectors public and private sector he's a favorite in the public sector in the government of canada you know where he's doing some pretty amazing work uh that i wish you know we could we could talk about but apparently we're not allowed to talk about some things. So it's top secret. And what else do I need to say about you? You're the author of Happy People Work Harder. You are the founder of Inspireship, which is a coaching and consulting firm in Montreal. And you're just an awesome person. Hi, Garen.
I'm going to hire you for my intros forever. Okay, good. From now on. Consider it done. That's so amazing. And yet, you're the one wearing a shirt that actually is so inspiring that impacts society and people. We're trained to help. um i know we're going to talk about something today and i i kind of wish we were talking about your project instead but i'll pass that over to you well you're just going to have to start a podcast then so that i can come on your podcast and talk about it we have one it's called inspire talk it's an open podcast where we actually have um participants interacting with the dialogue. So it's kind of we'll definitely have you on board in the next couple of months. Oh, I am totally there. You know, I'm there with bells on. I will literally bring bells and a cowboy hat. So we are talking today about building a coaching culture. And I know in the last conversation that we had in the last season, because this is the second time now that you've been on the podcast, I know we touched on it just a little bit. But this is something that's so important to both of us.
So I think it's awesome that we're going to give it a lot of attention. I'd love to just start by like, what is your definition of a coaching culture and tell me about one or two of the challenges or the opportunities that you see here that you've worked within in terms of the businesses you've worked for can i start by telling you how i discovered the concept and and we just go there because as you were talking i'm like how did i get into this mess so i used to i used to uh own and operate a nightclub in downtown montreal and that's as far as i'll go in talking about that but um some peers in the industry and i would have this uh this competition of who could be the best boss ever and so we're a bunch of nightclub owners and we get together and we shoot the breeze and we're like, you know, who's more liked? Who's more effective and all that stuff. And we're just trying to be the best boss ever. And these are some pretty renowned business owners in Montreal.
And so I went on this quest and I tried everything. And mostly I was trying to be the most liked, the nicest person, the most generous, the most flexible, the most understanding. the most generous, the most flexible, the most understanding. And the problem is we weren't getting out. My turnover was still high. My turnover was so high when I would just meet people. I wouldn't even want to get to know them because they'd be gone in less than a month. I'm like, what am I doing wrong? And of course, inherently the industry has high turnover, but it just wasn't good enough for me. So eventually, I went to university, studied coaching, came out, and I kind of saw something there that I didn't figure out as a leader. And so I kind of felt like I was always coaching, but I didn't know what I was doing or why.
So I went to study the methodology and understanding what it actually meant so that's kind of what got me started and so i ended up selling my shares i i start getting into coaching and i start working with some organizations and every leader starts asking me the same question which is how do i motivate people yeah i was like how do you motivate people so then i go on this next quest of how you motivate people and and the book came out so very soon after I realized that we need to be teaching coaching competencies and coaching mindset to every leader in every organization in our country ASAP yes and I'd like to make a distinction there's a coaching mindset and there's coaching competencies. You don't need to be a coach to have a coach's mindset. Correct. Yes. Right.
The being of the coach is completely different from, you know, getting two, three thousand hours and becoming a masterful coach. You can just have the coach's mindset. Yeah. And so that's tough enough, though. It's huge. That's pretty tough. It's a coach's mindset. There you go. Done. pretty tough. It's the coach's mindset. There you go. Done. It is. It is. And so I believe that if you can equip all your leaders with some of those competencies of getting out of the way, believing in the best of everyone within your team, understanding how people interact, how people behave, how the psychological impacts of humans in the workplace, understanding how you can set better objectives that intrinsically motivate employees to get them growing in a direction of desirability and truly understanding how to maximize your team's potential. Imagine what an impact that does.
And we tend to think that it's for the employees. It's not. I'm here to tell you my job is to help my clients and my clients are the leaders. When we teach this stuff, it's to help life better for the leaders. Imagine if you had to work less hard, you can empower people. They became more autonomous, more creative, more accountable. You'd have to put in probably a bit less work. You could delegate better. What else? Hang on. You can trust people more. Yeah. Imagine you could be less reactive and more strategic more often. Yeah. It sounds like a lot of promises, but I've been working in this space for almost 10 years now.
And I can tell you, it's not. It's not magic, but it's also not like woo woo. It's not, you know, this is like real, real shit. It is, but it takes a lot of time and energy and prioritization to do something that's a long game rather than a short game. Yeah. And it's counterintuitive in a lot of ways. Yeah. Yeah. It's really hard to do that. Oh yeah. And you have to let go of game. Yeah. And it's counterintuitive in a lot of ways. Yeah. Yeah. It's really hard to do that. Oh yeah. And you have to let go of control. Well, I like that. I like being a little out of control. Yeah. Not, not when you have like really stringy, stingy KPIs and you gotta deliver results and you have to find the balance between delivering results and being hands off. Yeah, for sure.
Yep. You have to find the balance between delivering results and being hands-off. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. But there's also like the middle path, which is the coaching. You know, it's not like it's those two. Those are the two spectrums, right? There's a third way, and that is the coaching culture. Yeah. Yeah. So how would you define the coaching culture then? Let's go there. Other than obviously the skills of the coach, how does that reflect amongst the team? I'm going to, I'm going to Kung Fu this one and ask you, how do we define the word culture?
Oh yeah. How do I define the word culture? Well, I mean, it's, it's the sum of all of the artifacts, behaviors, you know, desires, motivations, skills, intentions, you know, of a group of people. And we're going to get into this later, though, and it doesn't have to be the whole organization. That. Yeah. I know I'm supposed to be doing a lot of the talking but i haven't with culture i have more questions than answers and the one thing i say is like whenever i hear people talking about how we change culture and it's like it's just like it's so methodical i call bs totally i call bs and i get paid for this stuff and i show up and the first thing i say is it it's it's so hyper complex at best we're trying to solve for this yeah and then hopefully if and the first thing i say is it it's it's so hyper complex at best we're trying to solve for this yeah and then hopefully if you solve for a lot of things you look at something as a whole consistency consistently and say i like this right yeah and i should have mentioned also like systems processes governance like that's all wrapped into it as well yeah of course and each one takes what an aeon to solve for so um so how do we define culture how we work and how we behave and interact with each other okay yeah if you want to keep it simple sure uh yeah i mean no no i mean definitely i i feel that it's something more than that though too right it's like the energy of a place um it's what it feels like how do you measure the energy um I mean you can only mention measure it through the feelings of the people that are on the team yeah and the problem is that people have lives so depending on what's going on in their lives you can have the best culture and if someone's just not feeling it because something really wrong happened at home that morning, that'll impact culture.
So it's like it's the employees and their families and the environment and the country and the world all impacting this in this infinite matrix. Yeah. And so how do we define the coaching culture then? What is unique about something that we would call a coaching culture i would start by defining what coaching is okay and i and you know me erin i'm like i like things so simple so simple so if i were to like hyper simplify this and bring it down to the common denominator i'd say coaching is where one person focuses their time and energy and presence on helping another one achieve their outcomes okay yeah i like to simplify that way right um and so a coaching culture and i think achieving that person's outcomes needs to be like emphasized. So it's not like your agenda. It's their agenda. Ideally. Yeah. Ideally.
Organizations do set objectives and expectations. So sometimes the leaders have to set the objectives, but at least we give the leeway to the employee to select how. Exactly. If they can't choose the what, at least let them choose the how and give them the time and space to figure out what's best for them um so coaching for me is that coaching is also um it's about believing in other people's potentials it's about stepping out of the way it's about relinquishing your ego as a leader. It's about putting the spotlight on someone else. It's about trust. Yeah, all that stuff. So a coaching culture for me would be, what if all the leaders within an organization kind of ran with that MO? Yeah. We always talk about like putting the hat on right we have the coach hat as a manager you may have a coach hat you have a leader hat you have a boss hat sometimes right how does the coaching culture kind of integrate these different personas that you might have as a manager or a leader, do you think? Or can it? I would start with, yeah. So I'm just going to dig into some of my material in my brain.
So we'll do two things. One, we'll start with, we'll do three things. One, start defining what leadership is and building some self-awareness. Then we'll dig into the hats. So then you've got the manager the leader the mentor yeah the coach and most people think that if you'll ask you you leaders out there you're listening to this and i want you to think on a scale of one to ten how much of a coach are you and you're going to give yourself a score but what i've learned is most leaders who think that they've got a coaching stall or actually have a mentoring style yes and there's a distinction there mentoring versus coaching i don't know if we should dig into this now but once you've got that aside then you can dig into something else like leadership styles yeah and if if you if you subscribe to goldman six coaching is one of the leadership styles which whatever um so you've got what you've got the visionary the pace setter you've got the affiliative democratic um you've got the this is from daniel gulman interesting you've got the coaching so it's innovative in there command and control okay so the boss interesting yeah so something happens is by creating the distinctions of, you know, what style of leadership comes out with you by default and then which hats you're putting on and when and why.
Now the leaders are starting to understand what coaching is and isn't and what everything else is. And they start seeing the distribution or at least the, you know, how often they choose what style and why. Right. often they choose what style and why. Right. And then we'll go into realizing that a lot of people in stressful situations will tend to gravitate towards the command and control style. And then I'll ask them, why do you think that is? And it turns out that command and control is so effective that when it's time and you pull out, you know, your biceps and say, do as I tell you because I said so, and you really pull out your authority, it's very effective, especially during times of crisis. And then as the leader, you're like, that worked. And it was really easy. And so it's easy to fall into the trap of going into command and control because of how effective it was the first time and the second time.
It's just eventually that edge blunts and you start losing your people. And so we need to get them to realize that command and control is good during certain times of crisis when time crunch is happening. But you got to kind of spread it out. You can use it perhaps maybe 5, 10% of the time, but then the rest of the time you might want to lay off, lay off the trigger a little bit. Well, and it strikes me that if your people are constantly coming to you for guidance and they can't make their own decisions and they don't know, you know, how to influence upward, right? Like how to help you make decisions. And you have to, you feel like you have to use that command and control. You might just be living in survival mode a little too much as a company. If it's the situation, that's just a downward spiral to burnout. I mean, go down that path. So if your employees keep coming to you for, with their questions, why are they, why is this happening? Why do you have to be the number one decision maker in the company? Have you set it up like that? Maybe that, and, and, and someone gave it away to me.
Uh, recently we were talking about, um, just coaching in my own personal coaching development. We were trying to figure out the posture of the coach. What's our role, you know, and why a coach shouldn't give the answer, but always struggles not to write. Like you want to give the answer to something. And it turns out that he or she who finds the answer first gets the dopamine hit. Oh, interesting. You feel good about yourself because you solve the problem. Oh, interesting. You feel good about yourself because you solved the problem. And to put on the coach's mindset is to let the other person have the dopamine hit. Yeah. You don't need to be the hero. I actually, when I did my coaching program, I think that was the most transformative thing for me. And I know we, you and I have talked about this once or twice before. But it was knowing that I didn't have to be that person anymore. I didn't have to shoulder that load because for me it was, it's exhausting, right?
It's exhausting having to make the decisions. It's exhausting having to be the one who, you know, has to know the answers to everything. Like, yes, maybe there is a dopamine hit, but it's countered by that the energy expenditure how much energy it takes so um for me the most transformative thing was knowing that i didn't have to have all the answers all i had to do is ask the right questions and and it was the word have to yeah as a coach and but if if you're a manager do you feel like you have to or there's a part of you that feels validated when you when you can and so you want to because if you don't have the answer man let me check it out and leaders define their value yeah by their by their expertise so you'll get promoted to team lead why because you're the best at what you do and the team gets promoted to manager why usually because of their competence their their hard skills not because of their leadership competencies not because of their soft skills but because of their hard skills so they're graded by how good they are at their job and now all of a sudden you're at management level or director level and honestly, sometimes at VP level and sometimes at C-suite level where they're still measuring their worth by their competence. Yeah. And it's not.
Goldsmith's book, What Got You Here Won't Get You There. Very similar. You got to level up. You got to let go of the fact that you have to be great at something, especially in tech, when you always have to be up to speed with the newest tech that's coming out. And oftentimes I'll get leaders being promoted to the director level and beyond in tech. And they're told to let go of the continuous learning and focus more on leadership and management. And they're saying, well, once I stop learning, I become irrelevant. Right. So your identity, actually, your whole identity has to change. Right. So if I'm, yeah, if I'm like, you know, my entire career to date, I have been validated, I've been promoted, and I've been, you know, I've been, I've been given accolades for being a technical expert. Now, you're telling me that I'm going to be measured by a whole different set of criteria. Like, that's crazy to me. That's such a crazy shift. Can you tell me about one of the companies that you work with, obviously don't mention any names necessarily, but that you've supported through this transition? Yeah. And that's what I love and hate about what it is that we do. I'm like the most private public figure as in the work I do is, um, I get to work with so many people, but I can't really announce any of the things that I do. So there's not, there's very little documentation.
Uh, so listeners and watchers out there, you're just going to have to trust me, but don't whatever. so having said that, I know all the details. Yeah. So, so, so repeat that question with regards to one of my clients. We're talking about the coaching culture. Yeah. How did you help them navigate or, you know, maybe they're navigating because this is not like a one-time deal, right? This is the process between, you know, that technical mindset to that leader mindset that we're talking about and creating the coaching culture through the process. Tell me a story. Once upon a time. Yeah. So I'll preface it with this. Sometimes we build a coaching culture intentionally, transparently, and very tactically. And sometimes I do it inconspicuously. As in, on this side of the spectrum, you've got full buy-in from the CEO all the way down. And the entire organization is going to get a crash course. Like we're talking like super crash course, like nine hours, maybe 12 of like coaching, training and, and, and workshopping over, let's say a two month period. And everyone's kind of speaking the same language. And then from there we'll, we'll use the 70, 20, 10 models. So training workshops.
And then after that, we go to level two, which is group coaching, right? Having mastermind chats of challenges that they might be having. And lastly, individual support. So how do we make sure each person gets to where they need to be? That's on the super fun, amazing side of what we do because you can create an entire program and bring in experienced coaches and mentors guiding these leaders through the process okay but you don't have to be that intentional and invest that much i mean you should but whatever i think you should yeah of course you should uh but you don't have to to still get some of the benefits for instance let's see you're a small company you've got 20 leaders and you decide to provide leadership coaching to each of the 20 leaders without even having the training and the development stuff but they're just going through individual coaching well to be coached is a huge transformational experience yes and as you're being coached, you sort of, it kind of, you, you sponge up some of what's going on. You start not, I won't say imitating, but emulating what the coach is doing with you to then using those same questioning and presence and active listening and all that stuff. You automatically start doing it with someone else without knowing it.
Yeah, that's true. all that stuff, you automatically start doing it with someone else without knowing it. Yeah, that's true. So that's kind of where I say it's like, however you want to attack the coaching culture piece, as soon as you start introducing external resources, coaches or facilitators or both, you start having those positive impacts. Yeah. And I would caveat that these are ICF certified coaches or coaches following ICF competencies, the International Coach Federation competencies, because there's lots of people who call themselves coaches out there that don't really follow the same methodology or frameworks.
So I think it's, you know, it's not the same kind of leadership that you're going to get from other types of coaches in terms of leading by example. That's the sad thing. Yeah. I believe in coaching so much. I mean, it's what I do. Yeah. But even calling myself a coach, I will do it so sparingly. Yeah, me too. It's kind of like rather than saying I am a coach, I'll say I use coaching as one of my skill sets to achieve the outcome. 100%. Yes. Right. Yeah. And I use that to help differentiate myself just a little bit, just to say that it's not my only focus. Yeah. It's kind of the mindset is there for sure. Yep. But that coaching, when you wear that coaching hat, you know that you're following those ICF competencies. A hundred percent. Yes. A hundred percent. The client doesn't know it, you know that you're following those ICF competencies. A hundred percent. Yes. A hundred percent. The client doesn't know it, you know it. Well, and you can sometimes, if, you know, sometimes I will say, I'm going to put my coaching hat on here, you know, it depends on what they've come to me for. Sometimes they come to me for coaching. So they're expecting more coaching than anything else.
Other times they're, you know, they're going to come to me for advisory services, um, or mentorship. And then, you know, sometimes I will just throw on my couching hat every now and then, you know, um, so ICF quiz for you there, which one of the competencies do we need to, to introduce right off the get go to make sure that we're all on the same page? Uh, building a contract. Yeah yeah so setting clear agreements yeah let's coaching what it isn't which hats i can use how these sessions are gonna go um way to go garen what yeah quiz being icf you know absolutely so so if they don't know what coaching is how do you how do you it's like kind of like giving them a card telling them how everything works totally yeah and sometimes my client will come and be like i don't need coach garren today i was like okay yeah i'm like okay which which coach do you know which which version of me do you need they're like i need mentor friend and uh and boss i need the boss sometimes they're just like i just need you to listen to me because i just i just need to let something off my chest today. Totally. Yeah. And that's the agreement. I'm like, fine. So for that moment, I'll just use some of the ICF competencies, which is intimacy, trust, full presence, caring and scrap everything else. And I'll just be there. And if there's an opportunity to coach, I will. And if, and if the person doesn't want or need to be coached that day, then I'll always serve my client before I serve anything else. Yeah.
And that's what being a coach really is. That's what following the ICF coaching competencies and the coaching philosophy really is, you know? So at the end of the day, it's extremely client focused or customer focused or, you know, whatever you want to call it. It's like leadership 101. Person focused. Give a give a hoot give a hoot we can say shit on this podcast can we but nothing worse than that when i'm when i meet with people and i'm like it's like a leadership um intro class i'll be like, hmm. Just like the first slide will just be like, give a shit. Yeah. If you don't care about people, just be a manager and just try not to manage people. Just be like a one-person manager managing processes and systems. Okay, yes. Okay, yes, exactly. Don't be a people manager. I was going to say, if you're managing people, you have to care. You have to care about them. I'm sorry. Okay. Yes, exactly.
Don't be a people manager. I was going to say like, if you're managing people, you have to care. Like you have to care about them. I'm sorry. Okay. And do you think we live in a society where a hundred percent of managers care about people? No, I mean, no, but they ought to. Yeah, they ought to. That's why it's the public service announcement. If you don't care, leave. Well, it was, I think it was Margaret Van Amelsvoort, who's a, one of the, one of our amazing coaches and mentors who I worked with in a previous role. And she's from the government of Canada, or was before she retired. And she's the one who told me that people managers should be spending 50% of their time managing people. And I was like, okay. And I, you know what, I started using that in conversations because I was in business development. And I thought this was like, you know, management slash leadership 101, that you should be spending a lot of time, the majority of, or at least half of your time, actually actively managing, supporting, serving, guiding, teaching, mentoring your people, right? Directing sometimes, whatever, all of those things. And I was shocked to hear that that was actually like almost universally untrue in the people that I spoke with. Right. And what do we call those? I call them, I'm so mean. I do it with a smile. So I'll talk to leaders who are just like very hands-on. Yeah. And, you know, they're having like a bilat, like one-on-one, like once a month or every two months. And I said, yeah, yeah.
Oh, yeah. There are some that have like four know or one-on-ones a year anyway i say and then i i talked to him about how they got promoted and how competency becomes key and how trust and all that stuff happens yada yada but i say is it not possible that you're just a truly high functioning individual contributor that has more responsibilities than others totally and they're like fuck i think that's it yeah and it happens a lot so building a coaching culture is getting them to think differently it's the horizontal versus vertical development isn't it so what you know versus how you think so context versus skill yeah for sure yeah context and that's the thing it's like context the vertical development can only be achieved through um through gaining knowledge and in the systems like so the system systemic knowledge and your systemic knowledge can only be gained really through people you know um It's the best way to learn. It's the best way to learn, build context within an organization.
I know there are certain companies now, it's kind of a movement, I think, out of the IT sector in the United States, where they're starting to build talent management ecosystems where the specialist can make as much money as a manager, like a technical expert can make as much money as a manager without having to be a manager. So it used to be like, if you wanted to break the glass ceiling or whatever, in terms of, you know, your, your compensation, you would have to become a manager. That's starting to no longer be the case now, which is really smart. Do you feel that there's going to be um a decline in people wanting to go into management i would assume so yeah i think there are a lot of people that just don't want to be managers but they want to make more money for sure and you and you ask those people like why are you doing this and if you dig enough money money money's there, but you're like, okay, so you've gone into a leadership role. You, you don't feel like you have natural leadership competencies. You don't feel like you have natural leadership traits, skills, and all of those characteristics, but it comes with the money. from the very core into becoming a leader, the organizations kind of like, you know, sponsoring this, like we believe in this person. I'm like, dude, you're so far from where you want to be. Why do you want to do this? And eventually they're like, I just wish I can just focus on like, and they're very like technically skilled people. Like, why are you doing this? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So can we, can we even, is it, is it worthless to try to create a coaching culture or to transform someone from a technical expert to like a real leader without desire? Is that even remotely possible without desire, without desire? No, no, no, no, no, no, no. So a little plug here. So my A7 model. Right.
So I follow literally seven words with that start with the letter A. And it used to be A5 for the record, right? Oh yeah, it's A7. I had to add the seventh one, the seven, because I had, I'll get to it. So the first one was awareness, which, and they're all interchangeable, of course, but awareness, I now know. But attitude, that's the second piece. And attitude could be like our positioning our posture but also our desire so if if you learn something like aka 99.99 percent of horrible bosses don't know it zero percent of people come to me like garen help i suck said no one right and those who need it the most want it the least. I'll say that again. If anyone's listening, those who need coaching the most want it the least. For sure. If you want to know who needs coaching, watch anyone who's resisting or turning their backs to it. Almost every leader who comes to me to get coaching for their team.
And I'm like, are you taking coaching? No, I don't need it right i'll bet you what your red flag which percentage of your clients that like keep wanting more and more and more and you're like dude i wish you were my leader like like you don't need more coaching they're like i want to be better i was like i love you no we need to get you a more important job then you need to have more influence so you can share this with the world yeah exactly that yeah yeah i lost your first question hang on i think my question that you didn't answer from like 30 minutes ago was to give me an example of a company that you worked with okay so um the best example that i'll tell you is you go into an organization and from the very top, you get the buy-in. From the very top, you've got, and this happened more than once, in different sectors where, you know, one or more member of the C-suite shows up before I talk and they do the intro.
And they tell you why coaching is so important and they tell you how coaching changed their lives and they tell you how coaching helped them get to the c-suite and then they're like and ladies and gentlemen garen i was like sweet that's the best intro ever and we're talking like sometimes multinationals sometimes you know billion dollar corporations and that guy's introducing coaching and you're like, maybe I shouldn't have worn the Hawaiian shirt today. But that's the idea. So you get the full buy in. And just with that, you ask me the sorry and the part I'm going to connect it with. You ask me if if there's no desire, can you get it? Oh, yeah. And the second in a7 is the attitude well when you get your bosses bosses bosses bosses boss who runs the company come up and telling you who you know your manager and the c-suites coming up to you and saying this is important how do you think that impacts your awareness and your attitude oh yeah you sit up you look around you pay attention and yeah their endorsements everything yeah so the ceo or the c-suite showed up and and told you this is important yeah they literally start sitting more straight in their chairs their computers get closed their phones are tucked away they grab their pens they take the caps off their body language changes for the duration of the program so you know it's like it's not even just building a coaching culture i think you're talking about culture period when it's endorsed from the very top yeah everyone follows but if it's a do as i say not as i do as i yeah do as i say not as i do, as I, yeah, do as I say, not as I do, all of a sudden our message becomes not as important because the big boss ain't doing it. Yeah. So what do we do in a case where the boss kind of sucks and won't endorse, you know, they won't endorse it.
The CEO, the top person won't endorse something that you believe is really important in culture changing. Yeah. Are you asking me how my sales pitches go i mean if you want to go there i i i'm i'm so brutal like i wouldn't hire me but they weren't going to hire me anyways so i'll just call out what i see in the moment right yeah i'll literally call them out i'll say you're a do as i say not as i do kind of guy you don't want this for yourself you're asking me what i can do for your organization i kind of feel like it's like going to a dentist and saying what can you do for me like you don't do that right and i'll never go into a meeting selling code you've seen me aaron i don't sell you don't want it i don't care why would i want to sell something to. You don't want it. I don't care. Why would I want to sell something to someone who doesn't want it? Yeah. Why? Trust me. It ain't for the money. There's nothing worse than showing up and having to earn your keep for something someone doesn't want. So even if you're charging almost nothing, they still won't see the value in it. Of course. Yeah.
So so so that's how my sales pitches go what if you were talking to like a director who really wanted it you know so they really want it they have a budget but they know that their ceo is never gonna come down and talk you know like you know they're they know that the ceo won't endorse it or whatever um but they will. And they're passionate about it. How do you feel about that? That happens at least, I want to say 50% of the time. Yeah. And what I say to that is, it's the ripple effect. If you can infiltrate an organization with one department, that's the subculture piece. What if we can make this department kick ass so much that the entire organization looks and says, what are they doing? Right. So I, I like that one. It's kind of like, um, like, like infiltrating. It's very tactical. I'm like, watch us transform this department.
Watch us transform this team. Watch us transform the leadership within this team and If you can if you can get enough of buying and the results that you're looking for there You know within the organization. It's kind of like a vaccine and you know Any anti-vaxxers there, you know, it's like it's like the the the coaching the the coaching vaccine how's that yeah but that's the idea it's yes yes so what do you do with that you let them know that you can impact an organization as high as the glass ceiling is and that often happens um i work with many organizations where you know the slt the senior leadership will okay a budget for this kind of stuff yeah and then you'll have one or two leaders will opt for it and they make it very like it's not for everyone very small budgets huge companies tiny budgets and you can only work with like senior directors or vps of like this massive organization like seriously that's your budget you have a three thousand dollar budget for this year to help leaders grow sure um so you help this one leader and your job as a coach is to help this leader so much Your job as a coach is to help this leader so much that it transforms the reality. Yes. Your job is to just be the best darn coach you can be. And I'll tell you what happens is that that one leader goes back and tells their friends of what coaching did. And then a few months later, I'll get a call back from HR saying, we got another one and another one and another one. And so that first leader grows to three, four, five, six leaders within an organization working with. It takes time.
Like there are some organizations I've been with for several years and you know, words getting around and it takes super long, but I, I like to believe that over time with small incremental, you know, impacts, you're going to get to a point where you'll be like, why aren't we doing this for everyone? There absolutely will be a time. How do you, um, how do you influence the, you know, your, you know, your primary contact in terms of like how um how they can or how you could potentially support them in building a coaching culture not just coaching individuals um i think there are opportunities and conversations to talk about there are opportunities and conversations to talk about like sparks moments of magic where you can be like see what we did here what if we had more of that and and you know it rarely has to come from me it's usually them saying i wish we can just do this with the whole organization. I'll get the HR. I've had more than one HR director come to me and be like, please talk to my CEO. He's a monster.
And I'll say he because they were all he's. But they're like, please help. Please come and speak your truth. And honestly, I've had 0% success when the HR rep is calling SOS and I got to come in and do a sales pitch for that. It won't work. But what it means is that those who have the awareness and the desire, you don't need to sell to them. You're already, it's kind of like saying I have a cavity. It's like the dentist hasn't, doesn't have to sell you his services or their services. It just seems like, would you like me to solve your toothache?
Um, and so I rarely go in and say, uh, in saying that these might be some pain points and these are some things I can solve for you. I feel like the awareness is already there societally. I feel like coaching has exploded since 2018, 2019. And if you're great at what you do in the organizations, awake enough and internally value it enough to allocate some money to it and time and energy and advocate um become ambassadors of that positive change then okay i don't really have to do more than that so the grassroots culture change it sounds like is probably the most effective then yeah yeah yeah grassroots ideas especially if you have that glass ceiling that you're talking about yeah yeah yes yeah it may have to be but correct me if i'm wrong i feel like there's been such a huge burst with regards to culture in organizations with regards to toxic management with regards to coaching and its positive impacts the human side of of business and how it impacts the results positively i like to believe that most ce CEOs are well aware of coaching and it's possible and it's positive outcomes. I just don't know if I remember the part where I said those who wanted, wanted the least needed the most. Yeah.
It's about the, it's the self-awareness piece. I think CEOs, if you're listening, I don't think you understand yourself and your organization well enough. Sometimes, especially when what you think, but what other people say are two different things. Yeah. So I'll, I'll talk to the CEO and the, and it's, it's about external self-awareness. So internal self-awareness, how well I understand myself external, how well I understand how other people perceive me. Right. So both awarenesses I think might be off so the ceo might think we don't have a problem or at least not not a deeply rooted one and so we might think it might have to be topical it might be an ego thing it might be the survival i think in a lot of cases was that i think it's i think it's survival in a lot of cases you know survival of the ego survival of the company um you know a lot of people especially ceos don't really want to admit what's really going on under the hood because that means that they have to acknowledge it um and then probably take some kind of action towards it so yeah aren't we now coming close to um we've had this chat about umism, validation, I'm good enough. But if I'm a CEO, and I have to admit that I'm flawed, or I'm not perfect, what happened? Yeah. It's like, it's coming really close to imposter syndrome. But this is exactly what a coaching culture helps deconstruct, right? It helps us feel safe to learn, my God, like we are whole people. We are each perfectly imperfect, right?
And, you know, I think having a coaching culture just helps us really understand that like, I'm whole, or I could be, you are too, right? And what are we going to do together now, now that we've established that we're both imperfect, you know, how do we move forward? Uh, I, I saw, I saw a celebrity wear a t-shirt. I like, I just said flawed human. Right. And, um, I had told you, I went through like two years of rehab of, uh, like I was like, I was a perfectionist and it was ruining my life. And, um, I'm not, I'm not cured, but, uh, I'm, I'm now accepting and being very okay with the fact that not only am I not perfect, but I'm now accepting and being very okay with the fact that not only am I not perfect but I'm like extremely flawed and it's liberating so it's like I teach public speaking right and they're like how do you do how do you prep for like an eight hour monologue you know right I'm like you can't really you can't so so how do you do it and I get on stage and whether I say it or not, I think my opening line is and always will be, I stand before you a flawed human being. I'm imperfect and hopefully perfectly imperfect.
And I hope that that gives you the permission to allow yourself to be imperfect with me. Yeah. Now we begin. i don't you know there's there's there's two foundational pieces that helped me through that i know we're going i swear we're not going too off off road here one um the more i learned the more i realized i don't know much i know nothing at all i believe is your quote yeah and what's the second one realize I don't know much. I know nothing at all, I believe is your quote. Yeah. And what's the second one? It's don't believe everything you think. Oh, 100%. Right. Which is great, because now my brain's not always my friend. Sometimes it's my foe. So even when I'm on stage and I'm the subject matter expert, I'll literally show up and be like, whatever's on my slides, it's what I know now. I might be wrong tomorrow.
So challenge me. If you find a hole in it, let's talk about it. And I'm not going to say I'm right. I'm just going to be, maybe. And the word maybe has gone, it's just so liberating so imagine if you're a ceo and you're saying this is what i know now what don't i know the awareness the first a it's what don't i know and accepting the reality that there's a lot of stuff you don't know there's a lot of stuff you probably suck at and just by admitting to it is very liberating and the world is have a work transforming so quickly that it's impossible anyway. So stop trying. I can't keep up. No, it's like I make myself every time I, I'm like, this is how it is. The next day I'm a liar. I swear to God. Exactly. So I'm right until I'm wrong. Yeah.
So coming back to the CEO, imposter syndrome, insecurity might come in. Ego might comeoster syndrome uh insecurity might come in ego might come in survival might come in um perfectionism might come in results over people might come in um it's rarely a money thing when you when you look at the investment for establishing a coaching culture if i mean i don't want to throw numbers but it's really not that expensive. If your company is generating $100 million and all you have to do is invest $100,000 for like a year worth of training for like, I don't know, 100 people. Yeah. Right. What's the price per head? A thousand bucks. Try going to university and studying. Try going anywhere to study. It's like every certificate is like five to 10 grand now. Totally. Well, and what this does, yeah. And what this does, like creating this coach mindset is creating, really is creating that beginner mindset, that growth mindset that you're looking for. So that people will learn how to learn faster, you know?
Anyways, I think this has been a phenomenal conversation uh thank you very much sir for joining me uh us perfectly imperfect beings uh and i was thinking about when you said um imperfect human on a t-shirt i was like can't we just sum that up to like human we can just simplify that to human yeah yes yes uh the the misconception is that humans can be perfect which is quite egotistical i like to do a quick plug though yeah there's a movie okay i love because you said beginner's mindset yes and the movie is about getting to like black belt or perceived mastery. Okay. Realizing that true mastery, you need to that whole unlearning thing and coming back to white belt, that beginner's mindset. And the movie is Jet Li's fearless. Okay. So well done. I need to watch it. Watch what happens when Jet Li becomes the master, but then when he falls to true mastery, it's, it's amazing. And honestly, I like to, I base a lot of what I do, hoping to get to that tabula rasa, the blank sleep. Beautiful. I'm not there yet. Maybe someday.
Thanks Erin.
Thanks Garen. maybe someday
Thanks Erin
Thanks Garen
Don't forget to stay weird stay wonderful and don't stay out of trouble!
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With over 20 years of experience in talent management and organizational effectiveness, Founder of Stay and author of a book with the same title, Kelly MacCallum brings passion, energy, and a depth of expertise in enhancing leaders, cultures, and teams. With her practices grounded in science and data, Kelly drops gems on creating a workplace culture that employees will never want to leave!
Stay in Touch:
https://ca.linkedin.com/in/kellymaccallum
Purchase Kelly's book today, and transform the workplace culture tomorrow:
https://www.amazon.ca/Stay-Create-culture-theyll-leave/dp/B0CZBGY3PT
Script:
How you make people feel is everything.
Culture isn't the CEO. The culture isn't HR. The culture isn't one leader. The culture is the collective personality of the organization. And you have a part to play in that.
When organizations figure out how to take that and tap into that into the workplace, you know, you have the potential to be doing some really powerful things. We're responsible for culture. It's like, no, everyone's responsible for culture. Nice try though.
Welcome to Weirdos in the Workplace, the podcast that celebrates authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose. And I'm super happy to have Kelly McCallum on the show. Kelly, say hello. With over 20 years of experience in talent management and organizational effectiveness, founder of Stay, and the author of the book with the same name, Kelly McCallum Brings Passion, Energy, and a Depth of Experience in Enhancing Leaders, Cultures, and Teams. And we have some really juicy content, I think, that we're going to talk about today.
So Kelly, before we get started, I just want to tell everyone that I am a huge fan of yours, and I have been for about six months. I feel like a lot of the content, the stories, you're such a good storyteller and the stuff that you share just speaks right to my soul because I know it's so complicated, the world of work, but you have such like an honesty in the way that you speak.
Well, thank you so much, Erin. Thank you for having me today. I am like super passionate about this topic and I'm a passionate human in general. So, you know, I think that authenticity that you see, like, I think it's just me. It's just the way I am. So, you know, I'm glad it comes through in my writing because it's, you know, it's who I am. So really, really pleased to be here to chat with you today. Fantastic. So for those of you who, for the people who don't know Kelly, tell me who is Kelly? Kelly is a enthusiast that wants to make work lives better. I think, you know, all of us, you know, put in all these hours to work for these organizations or ourselves. And, you know, I think, you know, we spend so much time doing it, but so many organizations really fail at making it anywhere near as satisfying as it can be.
I don't think it's a hard thing. I think it's just an intention thing. And, you know, over time, companies just get complacent, and they do the same things the same ways, and they just don't stop to think that there's a better way. So I kind of exist on this platform to help people see that there's a better way and just kind of challenge some maybe traditional thinking when it comes to workplace culture. Totally. And some of the stories that you share, I think really do a good job highlighting that. One of the ones I think that I saw recently was you mentioned that some of the best jobs that you have or that you had or the best job that you ever had was the worst possible interview experience. It was totally a leap of faith. I loved that. I was like, yes, this is basically the same. I have the same experience for sure.
Well, it's so funny because you hear all these universal truths and advice on LinkedIn. If you ever have a bad recruiting process, absolutely don't take that job. I mean, that's terrible advice because maybe the recruiter's having a bad day. Maybe somebody in the background's hurting their process. It could have nothing to do with the hiring manager, has nothing to do with the role. So I mean, yeah, they could be red flags, but like, I think there's just more to it. And I think a lot of it's very nuanced. And so I like to use the stories, you know, to validate my own perceptions and to question my own perceptions and to question the perceptions of others as well. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And especially when you're working, if you like that, like creative work, you like working with founders, you like to have autonomy in your work. And a lot of people on this podcast who listen to this podcast are those people, you know, they're the weirdos in the workplace. Right. I don't actually think they're so weird, though. I think it's actually pretty common. I'm sure we'll get into this in a sec. For sure. Yeah. I mean, it's like, we feel like maybe we feel like weirdos or growing up, you know, we felt like outsiders at some point. And then we come into the workplace, and we sometimes don't always fit. Sometimes we fit better in a creative environment, you know, and that always, I don't think that always goes as smoothly. It's a little bit more chaotic sometimes.
Yeah. Chaos is okay. I always say embrace attention. Yeah, for sure. Embrace attention. I love that. Okay. So when I was stalking you on LinkedIn, I pulled out three questions that you said that you basically had tons of experience in. And what you said specifically was, I know what inspires employees. I know what drives them crazy and I know what it takes to keep them. And so that's what we're going to talk about today is what inspires employees, what drives them crazy and what does it take to keep them. Obviously knowing the diversity of human experiences, not everyone we can paint with the same brush, but if we are generalizing a little bit, trying to stay balanced and using our experience as a guide, what inspires employees? I think humans are remarkably consistent. It's in our biology. So there are certain things that tends to drive our behavior. And there's something very powerful called intrinsic motivation. And you hear about intrinsic motivation versus extrinsic motivation. And all that really means is that people are motivated to do something just because of the result or because it feels good, not because you're going to get a tap on the back or a paycheck for it.
So when that like when that desire, like is driving our behavior, like tapping into that's like just so important. So, you know, again, there's sort of a science behind it. And, you know, I'm far from the first person to ever talk about this, right? I think originally, Abraham Maslow talked about it in 1943. And he had a book on motivation and personality. And he talks about this hierarchy of needs. And I'll get to that in a second. But then later in the mid 2000s, a guy named Dan Pink wrote a book called Drive. And that book, like it's probably the most impactful book that I've ever read, like my favorite business book by far, because it speaks to the power of intrinsic motivation. Now, he doesn't go in and tie it together with workplace behaviors.
But all of my theory and all of my insights all come from linking intrinsic motivation to the workplace and the work of Maslow. So if you think about Maslow's pyramid, most of them have, most people have studied this in school. If you haven't, I'll do like my quick, my quick diagram on this. At the very, like the whole thing about that is what drives humans. There's like a, there's like an order of things. So, you know, before you can get into, you know, self-actualization and all these inspirational things at the very base of his pyramid, he talks about physiological needs. So if you think about that in the workplace, like if you're not making enough money to feed your family, it doesn't really matter what else is going on in the organization. All you're going to think about is I don't make enough money to feed my family, right? So it's foundational. We need to know we're going to have the basic provisions of life.
Second on that pyramid is safety. And so in work, that could, if you're a manufacturing plant, that could be safety on the floor. But in most workplaces these days, I would define that as psychological safety. And so in order for you to feel like you can do anything at work and be intrinsically motivated, you need to have a safe environment. That means your manager can't be a bully. That means you need to feel safe to say what's on your mind. You need to feel like your peers aren't making fun of you. So those things are very, very important.
So once you have those two sort of foundational pieces out of the way, they don't matter anymore, right? That takes the idea of money off the table. So money is not necessarily a motivator, but money is very important. So you can't, you know, you got to keep that in mind. But then when you get into the other pieces of Maslow's pyramid, it's belonging, it's achievement. And this is where it starts to align with Dan Pink stuff. And Dan Pink would say that the three intrinsic motivators are autonomy, mastery, and purpose. And I would throw in their sense of belonging, because I think that's very important, especially in the era that we're in today, because that really speaks to inclusion, diversity, and equity.
So when I talk about autonomy, it's about being able to choose where, when, and how you work. So that whole flexibility thing. So the more that we're entrusted and empowered, more that drives us to want to work. And I think that's why you see so many people getting hyped about remote work these days, right? It's like the whole argument about remote work. The reason remote work is so compelling is because you're providing your employees with autonomy. And when you do that, you tap into that intrinsic motivation. And so if there's like, there's a million good reasons for remote work, but that to me is the main one. So if you can give your people that kind of flexibility, it's really worth your while to do so, because we know that engaged and inspired employees drive business results.
So even if you're a miserable person, you don't care about your people, like you should care about your people because they drive your business results. So even if you're a miserable person, you don't care about your people, like you should care about your people because they drive your business results. So profitability goes up, productivity goes up, revenues go up, customer satisfaction goes up. So all these things are like super important. So leveraging these intrinsic motivators is pretty much everything. So, and we have mastery and mastery is all about learning and growing, right? Having that sense of accomplishment.
So, you know, it's like people say, well, why do people play video games for hours? Right? It's like they don't get paid for it. Right? What is it about it? It's mastery. Like it's addictive, right? So if you can bring that sense into the workplace, that's super powerful, right? And then there's purpose. And, you know, this whole Simon purpose. And you know, this whole Simon Sinek, you know, you know, people don't buy what you do, they buy why you do it, right? So a sense of purpose. And you see this a lot in areas like healthcare, you know, somebody you ask anybody who in their right mind wants to work in healthcare right now? Well, they're driven by a sense of purpose.
And that's why they do it. Right. So when you bring those three things together, and when organizations figure out how to take that and tap into that into the work you know you have the potential to be doing some really powerful things oh you sure do um i mean it sounds simple but i know like when you get in there and you're in the trenches it's not so simple right well no because we don't prioritize it people get all caught up on they just get caught up on the same old, same old. It's like, oh, we've got to do leadership development training and we've got to do this and we've got to do that.
And, you know, they don't stop and think about like what's inspiring. I mean, a good example of that is, God, the most archaic thing to exist that's, you know, it existed back in the early 90s and probably further back, probably the 50s, is the annual performance review. Nothing, there is nothing in the HR world that is more archaic and ineffective, but still so pervasively used. And they do it because they don't stop to think about another way of doing it. Yeah, it's an afterthought. It's like, oh, we just have to take care of it once a year. And if that, like... Yeah, this is just how we do things, right? For some reason, for that one thing, nobody has stopped to think, why should we not do this? This is really ineffective.
Or some companies have, but it's, you know, the big challenge with that is coupling performance with compensation. And by doing that, you make things very rigid, when, you know, rigidity is not really what inspires people. No, I would say maybe we could bump the 100 question employee engagement survey into the same category, you know, for large companies, like, well, I feel like there's better ways we can do things, you know, that are actually going to achieve some results here. What would you recommend for a company that's looking to transition away from the annual performance review? I mean, continuous performance management is, is like, that's where you're going to see better performance, right? So you do something management is like, that's where you're going to see better performance, right?
So you do something in the moment that's great, I tell you it's great, you're going to do it again. If you do something that's not so great, I still need to tell you, and sometimes leaders find that hard. But if you make like feedback part of your culture, and you start doing this on the regular, and like, the other thing about that is leaders asking employees for the feedback. So, you know, maybe you bring me in to chat about how you thought I could have done better in a certain way. And you give me that feedback and then I might give you some feedback and say, well, you know, had you supported me in a different way, you know, that we might have done a much better job together. And so there's like a mutual accountability. It's a conversation. It's not this once a year call to the principal's office where you're given a grade. Right. So and then you learn in the moment what you need to do to adapt. And then you don't have to deal with things like recency bias, right? Like how many leaders at the end of the year, they're like, okay, we've got to do your annual review for your 20 people. And so they're freaking out because they've got deadlines. They've got to write goals for these 20 people.
In two weeks after you write these goals, you've forgotten the goals that you've written, right? Because that's the type of, that's just the type of process it is. HR hates it because they have to herd the cats. Nobody loves it. But what works really well is this, you know, regular feedback cycle. And it's just something we need to practice, right? Yeah. I always like to, there's a lot of, I feel like there's a lot of responsibilities that HR believes they're accountable for, that it's really the, the manager's accountability. Yeah. Yeah. And leaders love to put it on HR. You're responsible for culture. It's like, no, everyone's responsible for culture. Nice try though. Totally. Yeah. So what are you seeing is like the trends in terms of employee retention? Like you wrote a book called stay, you know, which is about what, and I think you are like that is the most important thing for companies we need to keep people I just I don't think leaders understand how much it costs a company when people leave it's crazy what it costs right and I mean and I've got this I've got this fantastic like pdf that I downloaded from LinkedIn. It's something that LinkedIn put together with Gallup and it's the cost of disengagement and it's the cost of losing talent.
And it's, it's exorbitant. Like it's so much money. And if people were far more proactive in, you know, understanding what their people want and don't want, they could like save so much money. Like it takes itty bitty investment, but it saves them. It would save them so much money and so much intellectual knowledge walking out of their company, right? Like it's just, it's- The history, the whole history of the company, it's the culture of the company that's leaving every time someone leaves. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I've done over 1500 exit and stay interviews in my lifetime. So I've got the voices of all these people rattling around in my head, right? I've also conducted like 1000s of employee surveys. So I literally, you know, I go to sleep at night, and I hear these voices saying, why do they do this? And it's always the same thing. So when people leave people, I was like, oh, people leave for money, or they leave for a promotion. That's not why they leave.
They leave because they don't feel valued. And that's different. It sounds the same, but it's not the same. Because when you don't feel valued, it can be about not having your ideas heard. It can be that you're micromanaged. It may be that you found out that the more junior guy who was just hired, who has less experience and isn't as good at you at your job is making more money than you. Like that's not about compensation, right? That's about how you've made someone feel. It's like being passed up for a promotion. It's when your leader takes credit for your work. It's being disrespected from your colleagues. How you make people feel is everything, right? So that's what it comes down to, right? When people leave, it's, I mean, sometimes they leave for more money.
Sometimes it's just that. It's it's usually sales people so I think like sales people I think they're like the exception to Maslow's pyramid there's just some people that are just super wired to care about money right and that's why we like them as sales people you know that's why they make great sales that's why they make that's why not everybody does it right but yeah they're a different breed but they're you know but they're they're they're they're very driven by money and because of that they they achieve great things but that's actually backwards to what uh the research dan pink um talked about because they did work with london school of economics and mit and they actually proved that trying to incent people with money actually decreases their performance. Money is not a motivator. It's actually a demotivator. And it all has to do with performance stress, like not being your most creative, best self. So highly recommend that book. Like I can't recommend it enough to anybody because it does talk about those studies and what people learned about using money as a motivator because it's not what you think. Might be time for a reread. It's been many years since I read that. Yeah, yeah. And it stuck with me. It's funny how certain books just do that, right? That one. Yeah, that one's right there. So yeah, what can you do to keep them? Well, that's where my book comes in somewhat. So I'll give myself a shameless plug. But it's not what you think.
Like the book, I actually wrote the book. I had no intention of writing a book. So there was a client of mine who was on a budget. And so I was trying to figure out how to work with them. And I thought, oh, I'll do all these how-to guides. I'll create all these how-to guides that I can use with future customers. And then I'll just, you know, sign them on for some coaching. We can work through the resources. So I did a bunch of them. I did one on stay interviews and I did one on micromanagement and leadership and whatnot. But then I got to how to create a culture. And I thought, oh, this is going to be one of the longer ones.
It'll probably be at least 10 pages. And then I kept writing and then I kept writing and then I kept writing. And the next thing you know, I had this 150 page document. I'm like,'t a guide this is a book and so a friend of mine looked at me and said it is a book I'm like yeah but I'm not an author like what happened what happened with that I had a good friend of mine Leslie she uh she helped me uh you know add some more color and stories to it but if when you read it it, it sounds like a guide, it's because that's exactly what it was written as, as a guide. And it's all about, you know, creating a very intentional culture.
Again, like, so starting with purpose, like, what is the purpose of your organization, you know, and then defining values that are legitimately the values that align with your organization and how you want to do things and like not doing them because of the right things like everybody drives me nuts there's like the same list of values integrity and it's like okay like who's who's who's not running on integrity right like and you think about uh well you it's funny but you think they're not going to tell you that you know but you're putting it on the wall and it's like come on like that's a terrible that's a terrible value unless you can really be like you know that should it on the wall and it's like, come on. Like, that's a terrible, that's a terrible value.
Unless you can really, like, you know, that should just be the benchmark. That should be like, that's not a value. That's like, like level playing field. Right. But if you think about it, like Enron back in, I don't remember, was it 80s, 90s, whatever that happened, like they had these like golden values. Integrity was one of them. And these guys like were embezzling money and fraud and all of this stuff. You're like, okay, your values, your values were kind of meaningless guys. But, but then you get the opposite. You get a culture like Zappos. Now we don't like in Canada, we don't know a lot about them because they're a shoe company from the States, but we hear about, we hear about their culture because their culture was so revolutionary until Amazon bought them and kind of destroyed everything, which is kind of what happens. But the guy who originated Zappos, he just thought very differently.
And one of their values was deliver wow service. That's pretty clear what that means. If I'm an employee, if I hear deliver wow service, there's like not really a lot of different ways to interpret that. And I had a personal experience with Zappos. I bought a pair of shoes from them a number of years ago now, must have been a long time ago now. And I ordered the wrong size. Okay, so I get these shoes in the mail to the wrong size. And I hate that because it was my brand and I just made a mistake, right? Well, so I called them, I thought, I'll call them. But the first thing that was cool was when I got onto their website, the number to call was prominent. Right. That's so I called them. I thought, oh, I'll call them. But the first thing that was cool was when I got onto the website, the number to call was prominent. Right. That's interesting. That's different. And then when I called within two rings, I got a human being. Hmm. What? What? Like, what's like, oh, hi. And I'm like, oh, this is my predicament.
My shoes, my size, whatever. And they're like, no problem. What size do you need? It's like, I need, I need the six and a half. a half okay cool we're going to send those to you right away and they said when you get time you can send back the other shoes we'll send you a slip and and and you know uh you just got to drop them off at the at the mail i'm like so you're not gonna bill me twice and do this refund no no no and i'm like wow there you have it wow right. Right. So deliver wow service. I'm like, they need it. So when I hear other organizations cite customer satisfaction as one of their values, I'm like, Zappos can say that because they deliver on it. But what are you doing to deliver wow to your customers? Right. I just have a thing like that just popped in my brain that I just have to say. And it's like, you couldn't have that ethos. What they did there, it's like something that I like to talk about, which is let's assume that people are generally good, you know? Yes. Assume that people are generally good and like work from that as a foundational, like, you know, principle. Just be a good human. Assume that other people are good humans.
Are there going to be people who like take advantage of it? Yeah, but not most of them. Sure, you know, and then we can do the things that are right. If we make that presumption, if we presume that people are generally evil and wanting to take advantage of us, you know, we're going to build a whole culture and a whole company that's based on different kinds of principles. Yeah, and that's not where I don't think anybody wants to be there, right? Well, and you know what? Look, maybe that's a valid thing. Like, look to your customer service policies, you know? Well, everything, right? That's the thing about your values. Like, they've got to be entrenched in everything you do. So, you know, there's the whole exercise that organizations have to go with to start with, where do we even start about what our values are?
You've got to figure out what they are. You've got to figure out what it means because sometimes like like a lot of organizations really like these one word values i'm not a fan of them because like when you have one word like transparency like as an employee when i see transparency that could mean you tell me what everybody else is making you tell me about every single you know financial decision the company's making. When maybe what the company means is we're going to be transparent in the why we make decisions. Right. So if you don't define what that is, then people kind of, you know, make up their own truth. So it's really important that your employees understand what the values mean so that they can live them out. That's why Zappos was clever. They were easy. They didn't have behavior statements. They just, they just said things like deliver while service. Right. Right. Yeah. We can interpret that, but there's only so many ways we can interpret that. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
And you know, those people were empowered. Like if they had like, I guarantee you, if I, I don't know, for whatever reason, I wasn't happy with how they answered my question. I bet you, if I started making demands, like, well, I want you to send me two pairs of shoes, they probably would. Yeah. It's a silly, it's a silly notion, but you know, it feels like, it feels like they're that kind of organization or they were, they were. You feel respected, you know, nobody wants to buy from someone who you feel disrespected by. Absolutely. So what does it take to keep our employees? We are in a very challenging climate right now. There's been a lot of downsizing. I don't think there's very much trust in the world right now between, you know, AI, generative AI. We don't know who's who or what's what, what's the truth.
I think the, you know, obviously the economy is very challenging for a lot of people politics is fracturing a lot of families even communities um so i'm seeing like really low trust environment what would you recommend to an organization who you know they they want to keep their employees they value their employees well if you want to value your employees you listen to what they have to say right so you don't know what you don't know. I think that's a Taylor Swift line, isn't it? Yeah, you don't know what you don't know. But yeah, that's the thing. Like a lot of people make assumptions, even with engagement surveys, right? So you ask your people for all this feedback, and you get all this data. And then I've done this where you present the data to an executive team, and they go, I know why that's like that. And they go off and you're thinking, well, that's not it at all. When I read the comments, that's not what I'm picking up from that. So there's like a bias that they think that they know what the problem is. And this is where self-awareness is such a problem, right? 95% of people think they're self-aware when only maybe about 10% of us are right. So all of that creates bias.
And then they, they create these overcomplicated action plans and that never make an impact. And they wonder why it's like, well, because you really didn't listen. Like you did kind of, but you didn't do it in the right way. And every person and every organization is very unique. So, you know, what is happening in that organization at that time? What stories are your employees telling? Like, what are the legends and like, what are the truths that they're spreading around to create this culture and to create the system of beliefs? You need to understand what those are. And if you don't have trust, you don't have anything. So you need to find out, like, first and foremost, do your employees trust you? If they don't, nothing else that you do is going to matter. Literally nothing else that you do will matter. Like they have to, they have to trust you. And that's the safety. That's part of that. It's part of the pyramid. Like that's the foundation. You take that, you take that foundation off and everything kind of tumbles. Yeah. Right. So you're right. And it's tough because we've got layoffs, right?
Like organizations are doing layoffs en masse and they i mean i mean i get it they have to they're under pressure from you know inflated costs and shareholders demanding value i mean this is a capitalist society we live in they they have to make profits so layoffs come with that and it sucks and it's there's like a human element to it but it makes the people who are left behind very nervous right like it's like oh am i going to be next why did they do that like they told us we were good they told us they weren't good and so now you have a really fractured uh organization who's going to take some time to heal and until that trust comes back you can't expect these people to be, you know, engaged and inspired and, you know, full of purpose and in all of this, right? Like you have to deal with, you have to deal with the issue at hand. And you do that by being transparent, right? This is what happened. Take ownership of what happened. Tell them what you're going to do to make sure that that doesn't happen again. Build trust, keep communicating, keep being transparent, right?
Authentic. Employees can sense disingenuous personality a mile away, right? They know if you're full of it. Like, so don't try to be full of it. Just be real. That's what people want, right? Yeah, throw your cards for sure. Exactly. Would you say there's any hope for a company if this CEO, if people generally sense that the CEO is untrustworthy? I mean, it depends on the organization. It's hard because the CEO drives the culture. But I have seen leaders create really strong microcultures, if you will, right? So they can insulate their team from it to a certain extent. But I mean, largely the CEO will, I mean, at the end of the day, depending on how involved they get on that particular team and whatever, you know, it can undo it quite well. But I have seen these microcultures actually positively impact greater culture, right? So you Yeah, so you get this team who operates in a certain way and it changes around all the people around them.
And so you get like almost like a grassroots culture. Right. So that's really cool when that happens. But yeah, ultimately I think the senior executive CEO, especially like they gotta be, they gotta be legit. And if they're causing trust issues, you're probably going to have people leaving in droves. Yeah. Yeah. I think the microculture thing is very interesting because I see this a lot with clients. I get people who are, you know, senior level managers, low level executives coming and saying like, I need to make a change. Like there's, there's like something critically wrong, blah, blah, blah. It's cultural. They want to do something, but then there's only so much they can influence upward right well they can and that's the thing like i i also want to encourage leaders not to take that victim's mindset and stop saying oh i can't do this i can't do this i can't do this like yeah but what can you do like you can talk to your people you can do a stay interview with your people you can find out exactly what they love about their job and why they stay and what it might take for them to leave and you might be surprised on what it is that might make them leave it might actually be very much in your control right it might not have nothing to do with the you know the fact that the ceo's uh you know not a very trustworthy character right like it could not be that at all but if you're like if you're smart list again, it's all about listening, listening and action. I know it sounds simple.
Listen, act. And if you're not going to act, don't pretend like you're listening, because that just makes things worse. Right? Completely. It's so true. Okay, so yeah, so that's good. So tell me a little bit about your book. Are you planning on going on a grand tour? What's going going on are you going to create a workshop from it are you going to write another book I don't I don't have any I have like like I said the book kind of wrote itself and then someone convinced me to publish it and then a bunch of people bought it and you're like oh that's interesting I thought might like you know your friends always buy your book because they're nice like that but like I've actually sold a lot more copies of it than I thought I would so that's fun and I'm getting some good feedback which is great um but you know like I haven't planned workshops I haven't planned any talks um I like it's it's kind of there if I want to though like I know I could build a talk on it because I could you know I could literally talk about intrinsic motivation for for hours and it's in there it's part of it and you know how it all plays in with how to create a good culture it's all baked into the book um i would love to do i actually would love to do a book on leaders creating microcultures because inspiring leaders right like they can they can do so much good right and there's so much like again as much as there's so much that's out of your hands there's so much that is in your hands and god you just got to realize it and so that might be I don't know, that might be the next one. I think that would be a fantastic book.
Honestly, one of the things that I'm concerned me is the number of women leaders that are leaving the workplace to try to start their own business or actually start their own businesses. actually start their own businesses, either becoming consultants or, you know, doing something freelance and just like piecing out of the workplace completely because they're tired. Well, yeah. Frustrated, right? Well, there's lots going on there, right? There's, first of all, there's moms, right? So like there's so much responsibility in having a families. And if an organization has not embraced a flexible workplace culture, whether that's flex hours or remote work, I think about like, I think about my daughter, like she's, you know, she's, she's 30. And she's been working for a few years now, when she first started working, what was really important to her was going into the office and meeting her friends and having a coffee and all of that. And then COVID hit and she had like two kids in COVID.
And then all of a sudden it's like, I don't know how I would manage like dropping the kids off at daycare, picking them up. And if I didn't have this ability to work from home. So she's really lucky. She's got a great employer. They have a remote policy, flexible work. And as a mom, that is a game changer, right? So, you know, whatever else she gets frustrated with, with this organization, like she knows she's got it really good. And this is a really high priority for her. And then, you know, I think, I think we're doing better in terms of equality in leadership. I think at least with women, I think we have a lot of work to do with, you know, all the other employee resource groups. That's like a conversation for another, for another day.
But, you know, I think, I think women have really held their own. But yeah, they have additional challenges, especially when they, when they have families. Yeah. Well, this has been an awesome conversation. I feel like we could keep talking for hours, but is there anything that you wanted to like, if there's like one more, what's like one thing that you want everyone to know about, about this topic? Well, I think, you know, culture is everything. I mean, there's that old Peter Drucker culture eats strategy for breakfast. Like the, I was watching a, a talk from Collision Conference and one of the CEOs there, he's from a company called BenchSci.
He was saying, culture doesn't eat strategy for breakfast. Culture eats everything for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. And what his point was, like everything impacts, like culture impacts everything. Like if you blow it in one area, it can completely destroy your company. So if you don't nurse your culture, your organization will suffer. Like big companies have, you know, gone out of business because of cultural issues. Right. And so it's really important. We used to think of it as soft and fluffy and HRE and all of that. It's like culture is powerful. And I think that's what like every, everyone needs to know that. And everybody needs to know that they have a place in culture because the culture isn't the CEO. The culture isn't HR. The culture isn't one leader. The culture is the collective personality of the organization. And you have a part to play in that. Yeah, absolutely. Culture. What was I going to say? Culture is the best survival tool. Yeah, sure. Yeah. Like, like, yeah, it's, I mean, it's, it's everything around you, everything, it's your community, everything around you defines what you do. Right. And you can be in culture is interesting. Like, I think I had a post about this the other day.
Like, you can be in cultures. Interesting. Like I think I had a post about this the other day. Like you can be in one culture and do the exact same thing that you do in another culture and have completely different results. I remember Simon Sinek talking about a story of running into two different baristas. I can't remember where he was, but he was talking about like the barista at one coffee shop was like really excited and, you know, gregarious and doing great customer service. And apparently that barista had the same job at another, like another store. And he saw the same guy at the other store and the guy was discouraged, demoralized, not friendly. And he was like, what's up with this? And of course, it's like, well, in this environment, I'm empowered. You know, in this environment, I'm not, I'm not recognized, right?
So exact same person, same skill set, two different cultures. Yeah. And everyone wants to actualize their potential. So you want to be somewhere, you know, that nurtures that for sure. Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay. Well, how can people, uh, get in touch with you because you're awesome and everyone should follow you. Well, follow me on LinkedIn, Kelly McCallum, MAC. Um, uh, you can, you know, read the book if it's interesting to you.
I think I will warn you, it's a step-by-step guide on how to create a culture. So this is not like a book full of, you know, lots of, you know, super ideas. It's like, it's really a how-to guide. So this is not like a book full of, you know, lots of, you know, super ideas. It's like, it's really a how to guide. So that's, that's what it is. And so if you're looking even as a leader to build a microculture, it's a really good place to start.
The book is available on Amazon, all countries. Yeah. And again, like if you, anyone wants to chat anytime, questions about what I'm saying, just send me a DM on LinkedIn. Happy to chat. Awesome. And I will post all of those things in the notes, in the notes for the podcast on all the platforms. You'll have easy access to Kelly at all times.
Sounds great.
Thanks, Kelly.
Don't forget to stay weird, stay wonderful, and don't stay out of trouble!
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Learn more about our new project: https://trainedtohelp.com/
Connect with Erin on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/erin-patchell
Script:
An entrepreneur is someone who jumps off a cliff and builds a plane on the way down. Hooey. Yeah, he is absolutely bang on.
You cannot do it by yourself. You need a whole team around you.
If you're in Ontario, I would highly recommend, you know, reaching out to your local community futures development corporations or CFDCs, because they have quite a bit of support that might be able to help you.
Today on Weirdos in the Workplace, I want to talk a little bit about becoming an entrepreneur. And I really don't mean becoming a business owner and I don't mean becoming a solopreneur or a independent consultant. I do mean becoming an entrepreneur and growing a business. business. Growing a business, I have learned, is very, very different when it comes to entrepreneurship versus growing a business incrementally and slowly over time. Entrepreneurship is, at least from my experience so far, much more intentional, much more strategic, and much more growth oriented.
I think until last October, I wouldn't have even really called myself an entrepreneur. I would have called myself a business owner. And then before that, of course, I was an employee in my previous role. And before that, I would have been self-employed. I would have called it being self-employed, which again, is not the same thing as being an entrepreneur. I think entrepreneurial people take significantly more risks. So that's something that I'm still kind of getting used to. And then my husband who is much more risk averse than I am is starting to get used to this idea that, you know, this is going to be a significant time, money and energy investment for both of us, since he's one of the co-founders for the train to hell project. But let me tell you the story a little bit.
So back in October, 2023, so we're looking at what was like eight months ago now, about eight months ago, because we're now into June, early June 2024. My, my team member, Sarah, who is a friend of mine since grade five, my first friend, if you've listened to some of the podcasts before, I've mentioned her a few times, my first real friend, Sarah, who is now my team member, who is now my co-founder. She has a partner named Tim who is, he's in a wheelchair. He's now quadriplegic. He had MS, was diagnosed with MS, muscular sclerosis, when he was about 33, 32, 33 years old. And so Tim's case progressed quite quickly. Within about four years, he's in a wheelchair and now he is currently paraplegic. So I've been hearing stories about how Tim and Sarah, you know, try to get around the world and how challenging that is. I've been hearing these stories for quite a long time because they've been together for, I believe, around seven years now, something like that. And it's, you know, it's a struggle for me to hear it because I want good things for them and I'm their friend. It's obviously a huge struggle for them. And one of the major issues was that, you know, even though she's good at doing the research and asking around, a lot of employees at retail locations, if they want to go out for, you know, lunch, or if they just want to go to the store, unless it's a large store, like a big box store, the employees usually don't know.
They don't, they're not informed. They don't have the education. They don't have the training to understand, you know, what is, if their location is actually accessible, you know, how they can accommodate different types of people. So it's a really big challenge for them. And it's a challenge that is, you know, common across many, many, many disability categories. Basically anyone who has a challenge moving around the world in any way. And now we know that, you know, the last in 2022, the statistics came out from Stats Canada, indicating that 27% of the population of Canada, 15 years of age and older, has at least one disability that makes it difficult for them to move around the world or to interact with the world, the physical world.
And so this was kind of in the back of our minds. And Sarah was part of the, or is part of the Accessibility Committee in the town of Carlton Place. This is where we live. And she, you know, learned that there was a business owner in town who had had kind of like a negative feedback from someone with a disability when they came to the location of their cafe. And the person with a disability learned that it really wasn't as accessible as it had been promoted to be. So this is a really big issue because, you know, we want people to be able to, we care about people, you know, we care about customer service. Retailers know that customer service is everything, especially nowadays, because if you're not going to do it well, guess what? Someone else will. And so having spectacular customer service, knowledgeable team members who can serve all of your customers with dignity, respect, and transparency is really, really important. But the very big issue is, you know, there's so much information to learn here.
So what we're doing with the Train to Help project is we're shining a really big light on this and we're creating really interesting online learning for people who are required by law to learn about disabilities and how to serve people with disabilities in the workplace, because we do have something in Ontario called the AODA, the Accessibility for Ontarians with Disabilities Act. And they've got a customer service standard, and that customer service standard requires employees to be trained on the AODA. And there's very specific requirements there. So I know this sounds all very probably technical, but suffice to say, we want people with disabilities to be able to move around the world with more trust, to trust that they can explore the world, that it's safe to explore the world and that they'll be accommodated. And they know where they're going to be accommodated. So that's the whole goal of the project. Well, and why me, I guess I could say that, you know, me and my husband bring together a very unique blend of skills, you know, him being a software developer, which is a very key component, component, and myself having come from the learning and development space.
So we know we have the two of us along with Sarah, who is kind of our subject matter expert. We have a pretty good team. And then we've brought on four additional people to bolster up different areas where we need support. So we've got an amazing team behind us. But that didn't happen by accident. We started talking about it in October. And then, you know, by the time January rolled around, we realized, you know, I don't think this is just pretend anymore. I think we're really going to do this. So we had committed to it really in January, which is less than six months ago. And then by the time February rolled around, we had already applied to be part of Ignition, which is a program by Invest Ottawa within the Invest Ottawa ecosystem, a venture ecosystem. It's the first program that you can start with when you have a business concept. And so we started with Invest Ottawa, our program started in April. And ever since then, it's been an absolute whirlwind of, you know, creating our demo, getting our demo and applying to Collision Conference, which is on July 17th, you know, and then beginning on the MVP, the pilot, minimum viable product for our pilot, which is running August 14th is the launch date for that. And so we set some very aggressive timelines. And we did that very intentionally. A, you know, because if you're going to do it, you might as well do it and rip off the bandaid. And I would say that's true for anyone. So really this message that I'm sharing today is about like how to get something accomplished, you know, how to actually do it. If you have an idea, how do you get it across the line? How do you bring it to fruition?
Well, these deadlines aren't manufactured. I'm not making them up. So as the leader, as the CEO, and you know, I hate titles, so I don't call myself that, but as the person who's driving the performance of the company, the performance of the company, it's up to me to create deadlines and create some pressure so that we can, you know, pressure. And we've got to be careful because we want some stress because without stress, there's no result. But not so much stress that we burn people out. So we need to be very careful, like how much we're pushing on that gas. people out. So we need to be very careful, like how much we're pushing on that gas. But we do need enough pressure to actually get things done. And I think it would surprise you how quickly people can get things done when they're motivated to do something and when they have a passion for it and when they have the right skills, when the skills aren't holding them up. Now, if you have to learn a whole bunch of things, it takes a long time to learn, right? So that could be a roadblock for you. But if you can find the right people to come alongside you and help, and they have the right skills, and they also have the right passion and the right mindset for it, then you can create some real magic. And that's kind of what we're noticing now. some real magic. And that's kind of what we're noticing now when we brought on Jackie, a great project manager, when we brought in Alex, who's a phenomenal instructional designer, when we brought on Noemi, who has a passion for semiotics and user experience and customer experience and graphic design and marketing. She's like a Swiss army knife. Um, when we, when we brought on Debbie, who is another person with a disability, um, who's an amazing finance administrator, administrator, and we've worked together before, and she's going to be helping with making sure we stay on budget for the project. Um, and then when you, when you put all the things together and you, you know, you, you see what your skill sets are and what you're lacking and what you need, and hopefully you have some money.
So it's really hard to do anything unless you can find the money for it. So create a plan. Go talk to your family and friends and people who you know in your network. Convince them that your plan is viable and maybe they will actually loan you some money towards it. And that's how you get started. If you don't have your own capital put to put in, you need to convince people that this is true. And the process of convincing other people is also going to convince you and make you more aware of what, you know, the project has, the potential that it has, the real potential, and also its flaws and also its gaps. And so you're building this over time. There is definitely one thing that I know for sure, though, you cannot do it by yourself. You need a whole team around you. I've definitely talked about this kind of concept before as well. But even if you're, if you think you're alone, then you're probably not ready to be an entrepreneur. And you're probably not ready even to start a business necessarily. You can certainly be an independent consultant or a solopreneur and kind of manage to do things by yourself. But if you're trying to grow a business, absolutely no way in hell. You need a whole team around you, whether that team is part-time, contract, casual, full-time, mentors, advisors, full-time mentors, advisors, specialists, like you need to develop your whole ecosystem of support.
So if you're in Ontario, I would highly recommend, you know, reaching out to your local community futures development corporations or CFDCs, because they have quite a bit of support that might be able to help you. Any kind of economic development agencies, your local chambers of commerce. If you've got a business like Invest Ottawa, it's some kind of accelerator program or incubator program, definitely reach out to those, especially if you're in thinking about a high tech company. But you need to bring people, you need to bring your story to people and you need to bring people along with your story because it's going to evolve. It's going to change like, like pretty much constantly.
You know, our, our story has changed so much. Like I thought it's so much harder to do it for yourself too. Even, you know, I'm, I'm a business coach and I help other business owners kind of hone their value propositions and take their product to market sort of where I fit in. But even myself, it's so much harder to do it for yourself than it is to help somebody else do it. So when I was first starting Positivist Group, I did engage a business coach and I'm not, you know, ashamed to say that whatsoever. I think every coach needs a coach, uh, maybe multiple coaches even. So, uh, there's certainly no shame in getting help. Um, and it's okay to help for people to see what the process looks like. Uh, That's just part of having a growth mindset.
So if you think that you have to have everything perfect before you can share with anything with someone, I would suggest that's a very toxic sort of mindset to have if you're in the place of wanting to start and grow a business. You're going to have to get very comfortable with people seeing behind the curtain and seeing the process if you want to be successful. I haven't heard of anyone who's been able to be successful without that kind of support. So I know that those of you are out there, I know because I talk to you all the time. And you know that this is exactly the thing that I preach. So this shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who's talked to me before. But our experience with Invest Ottawa was really good. It has been good and it's still good. We're not, well, apparently it's like Hotel California. Once you get in, you can never leave. California. Once you get in, you can never leave.
And I'm starting to see how that could be true. But we've had so far, I think it's been eight weeks that we've been within the program, within the Ignition program. It's been a very good experience. We've made a few friends. We've certainly sought the advice of many of the mentors that they have available there. And then the beautiful news is that it doesn't end. So once we've kind of aged out of the ignition program, we can begin to take advantage of their other programs, the flex program specifically. So I'm going to actually recite on June 20th. If you're available, you should join us. If you're from the Ottawa area, please join, um, register. I'll make sure there's a registration link in the, uh, in the event, in the event, in the script, the podcast script, I'll make sure there is a link to register for the Ignition pitch competition. So I will be going up there and I will be speaking stream of consciousness for three minutes and not a second more, apparently.
And then there will be an opportunity for both the crowd to vote. So there's a crowd winner. And then they've got a panel of judges as well who votes for the best pitch. So come and, you know, hopefully you can help us win because Sarah, my my partner in crime here, Sarah wants to win both of both of them. So certainly I think we've got the crowd in the bag and it's pretty much up to me. So I'm going to share my pitch with you and you tell me what you think. And if you think that there's anything that I can do to do better, I would love to hear your feedback. So here we go. Disability is part of the human experience. By age 60, nearly half of us will have a disability that threatens to diminish our freedom in the real world. My name is Erin Patchell and the Train to Help team imagines a real world shopping experience where everyone feels welcome. We have a multifaceted solution.
The first part is a membership platform that equips brick and mortar retailers with the up-to-date knowledge featuring the best AODA compliance e-learning on the market. The second part is a website for our members to attract customers with disabilities and their caregivers to their establishments and provide transparency of information. Let me tell you a story about Tim. With multiple degrees, world travel, and even a stint as a model in Japan, Tim's life was vibrant. Diagnosed with MS at 32 years old, he was in a wheelchair within four years. Now as a quadriplegic, his world would be very small without Sarah, his partner, and my business partner, who fights daily to keep his world bigger.
But this isn't just for Tim. Currently 27% of Canadians age 15 years and older have a disability, and they spend about $55 billion annually across 141,000 retail establishments in Canada. In the past eight weeks, we've surveyed retailers and customers with disabilities, uncovering a significant gap in understanding. 100% of small retailers had not implemented AODA training. 100% of employees who were trained admitted to not actually learning anything. 90% of customers with disabilities believed businesses did not understand their needs. 61% did not feel valued as customers. And these retailers actually really care about their customers, but they struggle with how much there is to learn. Sole proprietors especially fall through the cracks of accessibility laws, even though if they're discovered, the fines for noncompliance are extremely expensive. The good news is we're trained to help. Our seven-member team, including three co-founders, brings expertise from engineering to sales leadership. We have the belief, the skills, and the experience to transform the train to help project from a project into a movement. We're preparing for our pilot party in August and we have 15 confirmed businesses and over a hundred employees participating.
They will proudly leave with trained to help certificates, t-shirts, storefront signage, and a dedicated member page in our searchable website, allowing people with disabilities and their caregivers to explore a bigger world with more confidence. We have five more spots for pilot businesses. So if you know an independent retailer who'd be great champion for this project, we'd love to connect, or they can join our waiting list for our November, 2024 launch. Together, we're empowering customer service teams, enhancing retail brands, and making every customer's experience memorable in the right way. Join us in creating a world where inclusion is a retail cornerstone, not an afterthought. So what did you think? Honestly, I'm pretty happy with it. But again, if you are confused, it's a kind of a big concept to try to jam into three minutes. It is a somewhat complex solution. So I'm curious to see if it actually spoke to you the way that I hope that it speaks to the judges.
So I guess we'll say that we're just at the beginning here. You know, we're, we're putting our pilot out in August, August 14th. We have quite a few local businesses who are signed up for the pilot and that's very exciting. They're bringing their employees and everyone by the end of the night is going to be all trained up. They're going to be hopefully compliant with AODA and, and more, hopefully using those skills every day to bring a little bit of joy into somebody's life. But it's just the beginning. We have a long road ahead of us, like years, you know? So I'm going to talk a little bit about just like maintaining my own energy through the next little while, because obviously I'm putting out a podcast. We're developing a software company. Positivist group is also running, you know, smoothly and, and humming along. Um, and then I also do quite a bit of volunteer work. For example, I'm on the board of directors with the ICF, the international coach federation, Ottawa chapter. Um, and so, you know, I do grant writing as well for nonprofits for free. for free. You know, it's, it's, it's, it's definitely going to be a challenge to manage my own energy. And I think that's true for all entrepreneurs, right?
So really, I've got to say, what I've really just been focusing on is the basics, sleep, exercise, walking every single day for at least an hour, hour and a half. A lot of the time I'll do that while I'm talking on the phone with a potential podcast guest or potential customer or just a friend of mine. And so I can kind of manage to do some walk and talk phone calls and get some exercise at the same time being productive and, and also taking care of myself. So finding ways to do that. Also, I'll just take a day off if I have to, like on Tuesday, my mother and I are going to go to a spa together for the day. And I'm not stressed out at all about that. That's a lie. So, but sometimes you just need a day at the spa and that's okay too. Um, and then just making sure I'm hydrating. Uh, so sleeping well, eating well, getting some exercise and hydrating. And I know that if I'm doing all of those four things, usually my energy can maintain, um, for the 12 to 15, sometimes hours a day that I need to be working.
And in order to, to bring this project to a successful start, it's not even started yet, we're really at the beginning. And so, you know, finding ways to make yourself finding efficiencies in your schedule, and finding ways to keep yourself healthy are going to be really, really important. So I hope you enjoyed this podcast. I know it's a little bit different. It's our 10th episode. So every 10 episodes, I'm going to be doing a solo podcast. And I think because my life is revolving around this project, I'd love to take you with me on the journey. And so I'm going to be sharing, you know, a little bit about what's going on on the back end and how we're doing and how we're feeling. So if you have any questions about that, questions about, you know, what does it feel like to be a software CEO? I don't know yet. what does it feel like to be a software CEO?
I don't know yet. I don't know how to answer that question because it still feels like a little bit of sort of this doesn't really feel real yet, even though it's very real. It's certainly real financially. So therefore it's real. But it still feels a little odd. So anyways, if you have any questions about that, you've got this twinkle in your eye, an idea that you want to maybe think about, um, let me know, and then we can chat about it. So one quote that spoke to me this week is from Reid Hoffman, co-founder of LinkedIn. And I'm really feeling this one. An entrepreneur is someone who jumps off a cliff and builds a plane on the way down. Hooey. Yeah, he is absolutely bang on. Until next time, have a beautiful day at work.
Don't forget to stay weird stay wonderful and don't stay out of trouble
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