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1:04 – As the China Sports Insider Podcast turns 50, are there still reasons to be optimistic about China’s sporting future?
2:46 – China may not be in the World Cup, but some skillfully edited videos circulating online have them winning the final – against Argentina!
4:14 – Qatar’s opening performance as host was a disappointment for rest of Asia.
7:21 – Turning to MMA, Chinese UFC star Zhang Weili is back on top with a title win at Madison Square Garden.
9:26 – The 2022 F1 season has come to a close. How did Rookie of the Year Zhou Guanyu perform and what does he have to do in 2023?
14:35 – Meanwhile, the Women’s Tennis Association’s 2023 calendar is out, but there’s no promised return to China.
17:16 – To mark the 50th episode of the podcast, Haig interviews Mark about his book “Sporting Superpower”, timed to coincide with the release of the paperback edition.
18:17 – The reception to the book has been unexpected, with talks on the book’s themes requested from around the world.
18:55 – What is the book about and why write it?
21:20 – Who is it aimed at?
24:00 – Several athletes are referenced or quoted in the book – what has been their response?
28:12 – Did anyone not like what was written?
28:51 – The challenges of interviewing athletes in China.
33:22 – Who were the most tight-lipped people?
34:34 – Any stories that didn’t make it into the book that deserve a mention here?
37:32 – What would it take for China’s sporting directives to lose focus?
40:00 – So is China’s sporting future still bright?
45:26 – Are there any plans for a Chinese version of the book?
48:25 – Some parting words from Haig.
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2:00 – Marathons around the country have been getting postponed or canceled, but Beijing’s big race remains on — for now.
5:54 – China is rumored to be launching a bid for the 2031 Women’s World Cup. What can we read into this?
7:03 – A funny story from the aftermath of the Beijing Olympics, involving a Swiss snowboarder and an unusual tattoo.
9:51 – Our guest this episode is Feng Tao, co-founder of sports marketing firm Shankai Sports, which has brokered some of the biggest deals in Chinese sports industry history and has held exclusive hospitality rights for China for every World Cup since 2010.
12:47 – The history of how many Chinese soccer fans traveled to the 2010 World Cup in South Africa, as well as subsequent tournaments.
17:04 – What will it be like if/when China gets back into the World Cup? The number of traveling fans could be insane.
17:54 – This year in Qatar, however, has been a very different picture in terms of Chinese fan involvement.
19:26 – But there are some Chinese sponsors who will have a visible presence throughout the tournament.
22:50 – Most Chinese sponsors have come from the consumer electronics sector, but dairy firm Mengniu has a very different strategy.
25:27 – The challenges of promoting Chinese brands with international markets.
29:23 – Has the global perception of China impacted business around the world?
30:03 – Feng Tao explains what he will be doing on the ground in Qatar later this month.
32:40 – How Alibaba’s multi-year Olympic deal came to be and Jack Ma’s “marriage” with Thomas Bach.
34:40 – How has China’s sports industry adapted to COVID-zero?
36:43 – One side effect of the country’s shutdown has been the growth of the domestic market.
40:27 – That’s resulted in a number of strategy pivots across the board.
42:12 – Some parting words for foreign brands and industry reps on staying involved in China.
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0:50 Some parallels between the handling of the Hu Jintao and Peng Shuai incidents.
7:17 Following on from Part I, which outlined the top seven sporting figures of the past decade, we move to Part II and reveal who are the stars to watch – starting at the top (again, no spoilers!). Out with the old, in with the…old?
10:39 Second up is Mark’s pick for best female athlete of the future.
13:05 The best male athlete serves up a surprise.
17:31 The best Olympian of the future is female, competes in a water sport, and has already reached the very top. Does that narrow it down?
19:35 The fifth award – for best team – has a new name and a new stadium.
23:34 The People’s Choice award resonated with the public this year. But this superstar’s staying power is the only question…
26:34 The coveted last slot, and winner of the DRESPY, comes out of left field.
30:00 Haig vents a bit about quarantine as the hosts prepare for their in-person reunion.
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0:40 – It’s Day 8 of quarantine for Mark on his return to Beijing and he’s been preoccupied by the fascinating waste disposal process.
6:00 – Former guest on the show Cameron Dicker, who grew up in Shanghai, stars for the Philadelphia Eagles in his NFL debut as the Eagles stay unbeaten.
10:50 – In honor of the upcoming 20th Party Congress, Mark reveals his top 7 China sports figures of the past in a very special – and somewhat tongue-in-cheek culminating in a new award (no spoilers).
14:12 – Best female and male athletes.
18:08 – Best Olympian and best team awards.
21:06 – And you won’t want to miss the People’s Choice or the DRESPY awards.
Stay tuned to see who will be in the new sporting Standing Committee – revealed next week!
28:10 Mark gives Haig a few pointers for his upcoming quarantine.
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1:20: The FIFA World Cup is approaching. How much buzz will there be in China?
3:23: Mike Pompeo was in Taiwan this week and Mark had a passing glimpse
5:39: The Chinese women’s basketball team is into the semis at the FIBA World Cup and could challenge for a medal for the first time in 28 years.
9:33: Eileen Gu poses for her first day at school as she joins a strong list of student athletes at Stanford
12:36: Chess has been in the news for all the wrong reasons recently and a Chinese woman grandmaster has been on the end of some sexist comments
15:11: Beijing 2022 mascot Bing Dwen Dwen rides off into the sunset
18:52: The World Team Table Tennis Championships kick off this week in Chengdu, just weeks after the city exited a lockdown, showing just how important the sport is to China.
22:04: Our guest this week is Ivy Liao, a Canadian table tennis player competing in Chengdu. She speaks to us from inside the bubble.
22:23: Liao tells the story of her arduous journey to Chengdu, with all international athletes having to take a charter flight from with Dubai or Singapore, as she prepared to compete in Zero-COVID conditions.
24:38: The mental side looms large in athletes’ minds when playing in a bubble. What lies ahead for players at the event?
27:00: But have the Chinese players been mixing with players from other countries at all?
31:00 The nature of team competition: competing against an international teammate versus only playing someone from another country.
34:57: Why is China so good at table tennis and how can the rest of the world catch up?
40:20: Over the years, dozens of players from China have naturalized overseas in order to represent other countries in international competition. How are these “exports” viewed within the game?
46:40: Liao talks about her previous visits to China and connecting with her own Chinese heritage.
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0:45: Mark recounts his earthquake experience in Taiwan and highlights how the cluster of former China journalists now based on the island is affecting the overall narrative.
6:03: The livestream is back for a second week — with one crucial difference thanks to feedback from a listener/viewer.
8:10: F1 releases its 2023 calendar. Shanghai is down for April 23, but Mark promises to eat Haig’s hat if the race actually takes place.
14:32: A discussion about short-term thinking, and how it affects the development of sports in China, especially when long-term horizons are essential. That’s why David Beckham was brought to China as a CSL Ambassador, but had very little effect.
17:01: Vladimir Putin has floated the idea of an alternative sporting competition with China, India and other SCO nations. It sounds rather like – in fact just like – the Olympics.
21:47: A former UCLA basketball player, Jalen Hill, died in Costa Rica this week, aged 22. He spoke eloquently a year ago of battling some demons, linked to a fateful trip to China in 2017.
27:04: Nike is getting in on the podcasting bandwagon in China. What can we expect?
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0:45 The (new!) livestream starts with some differences in playing club tennis around the world.
2:37 Both hosts express anxiety about their upcoming returns to Beijing.
5:14 Chengdu is set to go ahead with the World Team Table Tennis Championships later this month, despite an ongoing lockdown. What lessons have organizers learned from the Beijing Olympic closed loop? And has China’s dominance in the sport impacted the decision to proceed?
11:58 One of the biggest storylines from Beijing 2022, the Kamila Valieva doping scandal, has some updates from Russia. What can we expect next — and when?
16:44 A shoutout to former podcast guest Rachel Llanes, who just accepted a job with the San Jose Sharks organization.
18:24: The IOC releases its human rights strategy six months after the Beijing Olympics. What’s the significance of this, especially given the recent UN report on Xinjiang?
20:48: What does this mean for future Olympic host cities? Could Saudi Arabia ever be in the mix?
23:38: Chelsea’s new American owner suggested the possibility of an All-Star game for the Premier League, with English fans up in arms. But is it really such a big deal?
27:53: A Bloomberg report this week says that Fosun, the Chinese conglomerate that owns Premier League team Wolverhampton Wanderers, may be in financial trouble. What does that mean for the club?
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The China Sports Insider Podcast is back after a busy summer and will continue to evolve as Zero COVID continues to dominate the sports industry in China.
6:10 – To illustrate that point, the Chinese women’s volleyball team competed at a recent tournament in the Philippines wearing N95 masks during their game — something that drew unusual criticism from fans online.
8:48 – The big scandal of the Chinese sporting summer was former badminton world champion Ye Zhaoying revealing to Danish TV that she’d been ordered her to throw her 2000 Olympics semifinal game against teammate, Gong Zhichao, to give Gong the best chance of winning gold for China. There’s much more to this story, too.
12:20 – Can tanking ever be justified if, for example, it means there’s a greater chance to win a gold medal? A full-throated discussion with plenty of examples from the wide world of sports.
19:06 – Chinese tennis set records at the U.S. Open, but — for a change — it was the men leading the charge, with 22-year-old Wu Yibing making it to the third round. He’s one for the future after a stellar 2022, but has his development already been stunted?
25:21 – The WTA says their Finals will be held in Texas this year, after which they are “hopeful” of a return to China, but there are two main issues standing in the way — Zero COVID and Peng Shuai — so what happens next?
32:00 – Let us know what you’d like to hear on future episodes of the show. We’ll start with a debut livestream next week and take it from there!
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In an special interview edition of the show, Mark and Haig speak to Yonina Chan, who helps run the Beijing chapter of the famed Israeli self-defense system Krav Maga. (0:55) What is Krav Maga and how did Chan get into it? (2:45) One of the hottest topics in China over the last month was about the incident in Tangshan, where a group of men assaulted a group of women in a restaurant. What stood out to her about that? (5:34) What specifically made this incident a complex situation? (7:30) A rundown and explanation of different levels and strands of violence and how to evaluate them. (12:10) The importance of not victim-blaming while trying to understand the psychology behind an escalation of violence. (15:45) How the representation of violence in the media feeds into attitudes toward violence. (20:23) From a sports perspective, what kind of impact has MMA fighter Zhang Weili had on martial arts in China?
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(0:55) Recent podcast guest and F1 driver Zhou Guanyu finally has some good luck, finishing eighth at the Montreal Grand Prix. (1:36) He’s a fun follow on social media, sharing insider clips and not afraid to laugh at himself, (2:15) and the race itself was worth staying up into the small hours for — at least for Mark. (3:16) Haig attempts to steer the conversation back to his beloved Canada and their World Cup pursuits, (4:05) before the hosts discuss a new sports law in China that apparently is designed to protect the country’s honor on the world stage.
(7:03) Meanwhile, China and Taiwan have fired shots over an ID issue at the World Cup in Qatar: how to refer to Taiwanese fans — and will any of them actually be going? (8:36) The ATP’s Shanghai Masters says it’s going to be expanding from 2023, but the boys think this sounds premature — both from a COVID perspective as well as from a reputational and political angle. (11:19) Could tennis’s China swing be expanded, too? Probably not. (12:18) Make sure to check out an exciting new feature — Tweet of the Week — featuring a former NFL player, China, some toilet humor — and a bridge. Send in your suggestions for next week!
(14:30) Our guest this week is Hong Kong-based journalist Jonathan White, who’s covered sports in the Greater China region for well over a decade. (14:50) What did he make of an SCMP op-ed this week on Hong Kong’s recent sporting revival, and what lessons can the rest of China learn from what Hong Kong has achieved? (21:30) International headlines coming out of the city recently have tended to be fairly grim, but is sporting success improving morale in Hong Kong?
(24:33) Hong Kong’s football team just qualified for the Asian Cup for the first time in more than 50 years. How popular is the team in normal times? (26:51) And how soon will it be until fans can see another home game? (28:38) What about the hardcore support? How many fans will travel to support Hong Kong in the Asian Cup next summer — wherever it may be held?
(31:15) As a journalist, what are the differences White’s witnessed covering sports in both the Chinese mainland and Hong Kong? Hong Kong venues typically are more welcoming, it appears. (33:56) Mark compares the role of media outlets around the world: in China, it’s essentially PR, so why would Chinese teams want pesky journalists asking actual questions? (37:51) A discussion about the role (or lack of) fan engagement, (42:06) before White ends with some of his favorite China stories, including challenging US sprinter Jon Drummond to a race while out drinking during the 2008 Beijing Olympics.
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We round up the news this week with Zhang Weili’s stunning knockout win in the UFC. How long until she fights for another title (2:26)? Meanwhile, F1 driver Zhou Guanyu — a recent guest on the podcast — continues to have a run of bad luck, plagued by technical issues when driving well (3:45). Meanwhile, China’s breakout tennis star Zhang Qinwen backs up her strong run at the French Open by winning her first WTA title in Valencia (9:23), and a trip down memory lane to 2016 when then-Manchester United manager Jose Mourinho was grilled at the Bird’s Nest by a certain Haze Fan — who’s been in the news this week for entirely different reasons (11:00).
Our guest this week is Jeremiah Jenne, a long-time Beijing resident, historian, podcaster, and — crucially — a big Boston sports fan (13:00). Jenne talks about what it’s been like watching the Celtics play in the NBA Finals and makes a bold prediction (15:00). Watching the games in China can be done using a variety of different methods — legal or otherwise (16:07) — but the impact of the NBA being banned from Chinese screens for the past two years has been minimal for Jenne (18:15). He recalls the time when NBA Commissioner Adam Silver pissed off the Chinese government not by what he said or did, but by revealing they had tried to silence him (19:40). There used to be a time when he could watch games with friends in pubs, but now that’s much harder (22:28).
Jenne discusses why Boston sports fans got their reputation (24:00) and wonders whether there is a Premier League equivalent to shit-talker-in-chief Larry Bird (28:56). Another Boston team, the Patriots, once opened an office in China, but it was a short-lived affair (31:33), with the NFL’s hyper-detailed nature clashing with China’s events culture (33:10), reminiscent of the NHL’s exhibition fiasco in Shanghai when hockey players couldn’t see through the fog on the ice (34:00). In fact, players from all sports have had issues when traveling abroad for pre-season, even though the fans love it (36:00).
Onto baseball and some theories on why the sport hasn’t made it big in China (38:05). Jenne says that watching sports is a taste of home that helps keep him grounded (42:20) and explains why being a Red Sox fan has helped him understand China better (45:09). Why relegation needs to happen in North American sports (48:06) and which US sport is most likely to adopt the concept (48:42). Finally, Jenne describes the evolution of the typical Chinese sports fan he’s encountered over the decades (50:06), reveals what’s exciting him these days (53:40), and muses on what Chinese sports fans must think when they see full stands in Europe and North America (54:50).
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Eileen Gu, the top-rated story from the 2022 Olympics, is back in the headlines once again (1:00). She just announced she will be an ambassador for Salt Lake City’s Olympic bid. Is she trying to have her cake and eat it too (2:15)? Mark says she’s overcompensating for her switch from the U.S. to China, but what will the Chinese reaction be (4:15)? Could she even switch back to compete for the US in 2026 (4:55)? With athletes like skater Nathan Chen — a Salt Lake City native — or skier Mikael Shiffrin, what will Eileen Gu do for the bid that others can’t? (7:44) How much do Americans care at this point? Old news or still a story (9:57)? It’s clear she needs to come on the China Sports Insider Podcast (11:24)! Here’s what Mark would ask her if he just had one question (12:10).
At his customary pre-NBA finals press conference, Commissioner Adam Silver talked a lot about China (14:10). Silver was, again, trying to occupy something of a middle ground — and, so far, he seems to be doing OK (15:36). Silver says the NBA gets unfairly singled out. Mark tends to agree: if we give up on sports exchanges, then we might as well give up on diplomacy entirely (17:18).
Our guest this week, Chris Fenton, sits at the intersection of sports, celebrity and China’s global dealings (19:50). Hollywood seems to be turning the corner with regards to China — but where are we with sports (21:06)? Discussion of the WTA taking a stance on the Peng Shuai affair and being rewarded by sponsorship dollars as a result (26:06). But it’s hard to see what a resolution between China and the WTA looks like. When it comes to money, will people always be swayed (28:38)? The WTA, and more recently, the Top Gun movie, shows that you can be profitable while bypassing the China market. Will the men’s tour, the ATP, become the first frog to jump into the boiling water (31:52)? We end with a discussion about ESPN’s recent articles about China and NBA owners — and what this means for the future (35:35).
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China’s Zheng Qinwen makes a run at the French Open — beating Simona Halep and Alize Cornet, then becoming the first player in more than a month to take a set off Iga Swiatek. (2:20) Zheng has been getting lots of attention in China, with people posting about her online and bringing tennis back into the spotlight (6:00). Elsewhere, there’s a new youth football league in China — but will it make a difference (6:55)? China’s goalkeeping coach says the men’s national team has improved by 33% in recent months. That’s, er, debatable (8:00). How does the formation of a youth league in China compare to development in other countries and why has it taken so long (9:36)?
Tennis great Patrick McEnroe joins the show from New York, after returning from Roland Garros (11:40). He gives his thoughts on Zheng’s run to the last 16 in Paris (12:25). Is it too early to call her the next Li Na (13:42)? Moving outside of China, coupled with her personality, can help her prepare for the big time (15:05).
Are players and coaches talking about Chinese tennis today? How much are the next crop of youngsters on the radar (16:57)? McEnroe explains how Zheng’s Spanish coach and her setup will bring a mental aspect to her athleticism that will help her a lot (19:23). There are development parallels with Li Na, but also in how their games have both been rooted in the Chinese system and have embraced the global system, too (21:35). Training for tennis is unique – you need to compete against players better than you, so you need to travel to where the better players are (23:15).
Is Peng Shuai still a topic with the players on tour (26:25)? Are the men’s and women’s tours — the ATP and the WTA — talking about this together? McEnroe spoke to WTA boss Steve Simon recently on his podcast to talk about China and says he thinks the WTA is looking for a solution, while the ATP could be back in China as soon as the borders re-open (29:49).
McEnroe gives his thoughts on why there are no good Chinese male players, saying that the girls can train with boys to get better, but boys have to travel, adding that athleticism has become very important in the men’s game — it’s no longer enough to just be a good player (34:12). Finally, he shares his thoughts on the recent Casper Ruud and Holger Rune dispute at the net and tells some stories from his past — his own beef with Andre Agassi and a time when Andy Roddick had an issue with a young Novak Djokovic at the US Open (38:41).
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On the show this week, Mark shares his experience on Patrick McEnroe’s podcast (1:02), plus watching live soccer for a change at a Taiwan Mulan Football League game — women’s pro soccer in Taiwan (1:41). Meanwhile, Tencent Sports has laid off 100 people given that there’s no original sporting content to produce these days (3:15), and Tencent’s big boss Pony Ma has been in the headlines for reposting a column critical of Covid Zero (5:17). Chongqing’s soccer team pulls the plug after 27 years in existence, leaving the Chinese Super League one team short just days before the start of the season. Reports circulate that players are getting very edgy about payments, too (6:46). Forbes releases its annual list of the Top 50 highest earning athletes — but there’s one key omission with a Chinese connection (10:39)!
Two guests join Mark and Haig to discuss the rise of Ultimate Frisbee, a game that’s been played in China for more than two decades, but has exploded in popularity recently thanks to influencers on Little Red Book (小红书 Xiǎohóngshū), China’s version of Instagram. Haig wrote about this in SupChina, with SupChina managing editor Anthony Tao — the former co-captain of Beijing’s top ultimate team, Big Brother — plus Zoey Tang, current co-captain of Big Brother, joining the discussion (14:03).
Despite his love for the sport, why was Anthony wary about commissioning a piece about Ultimate in China (15:23)? The sport’s recent growth has been dramatic, but some in the sport have mixed feelings (17:35). Ultimate has even featured in commercial breaks during Tencent’s coverage of the NBA Playoffs (18:28). Zoey explains when she first began noticing new players — and new media coverage (19:20).
The photos circulating online are something else. The guests try to describe them, but they have to be seen to be believed (20:05). Zoey makes the point that the photos are too unrealistic, primarily because the make-up is too perfect – and that’s not going to work when you’re playing (21:51). So if the photos are the most important thing, do these Ultimate influencers even play the game (22:47)? Little Red Book, or Xiaohongshu, reached out to Zoey in their desire to promote the sport (24:37). But what is this app, and how did it identify frisbee as a new fashion trend (25:42)? Of all the things that could have exploded in China, why Ultimate (26:44)?
It’s great to have new people take up the sport, but Anthony and Zoey explain why it can be unsafe to play with newbies (28:40). More so than many other sports, Ultimate has become a social activity and a way to meet people — with a number of “Ultimate couples” emerging (29:07). But the cost of playing is rising, because of new things like coaching and photography (30:50). There’s a hashtag online for Ultimate, which translates as “Frisbee brings all the joy” — it’s a very positive slogan and has helped to bring even more exposure (34:40).
What is it like coaching and training these new players? For some women, Zoey says, this is the first time they’ve ever played a sport (36:31). Just how big can Ultimate become in China (39:05)? Anthony outlines a little of the sport’s history in China (40:10) and explains why the infrastructure in the US is more advanced than that in China (42:13). Finally, there have been rumblings of Ultimate becoming an exhibition sport at the Olympics, which could boost its popularity further in China (44:00), but the organizational aspects in China could well become political — as has been seen in other sports here — which could, conversely, hinder the sport’s growth.
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With a special guest on the show this week, we rank where F1 rookie Zhou Guanyu sits in China’s sporting landscape today (0:52). The biggest sports story in China is still COVID, with China now stripped of its hosting rights for the 2023 Asian Cup. Given the news, what are chances of China ever hosting a World Cup (2:17)? A discussion on who takes the blame — or the credit — for the early Asian Cup cancellation decision (5:47). Is this a sign we’ll be living with Zero-COVID in China for at least another year (7:22)? And where does that leave the CSL this season (9:00)?
In tennis news, the organizer of the Hong Kong Open says he’s hopeful the tournament can return in 2023 — but it all depends on two small things, COVID and Peng Shuai (9:50). Mercedes F1 boss Toto Wolff says he’d like to see three races in China — hardly the right time to be calling for that (11:51)! Exploring the options for a new circuit from Beijing and Hainan to Yunnan and Tibet (14:46).
F1 driver Zhou Guanyu joins us from Barcelona, where he’s preparing for the Spanish Grand Prix (15:26). He’s started strongly and shares his goals for the rest of the season (17:09). F1 has been a whirlwind so far: Has anything surprised him (18:16)? Next, Zhou talks about his relationship with teammate Valtteri Bottas and the Alfa Romeo team (19:22), and reveals what he’s made of the reaction to his success from fans back at home (20:37).
Not everyone was supportive of the Chinese driver joining the grid: Zhou said he was surprised by that, but hits back at his critics (21:48). The Shanghai native then speaks of his excitement about the prospect of racing at his hometown track (23:40), and shares his memories of previous Chinese Grands Prix in Shanghai (25:10).
The Netflix series Drive to Survive has transformed F1’s popularity in the U.S. and Zhou gives his take on that and the upcoming season (26:40). Back at home, what are the challenges and opportunities for developing motorsport in China and what can he personally do to drive that forward (27:42)? Perhaps surprisingly, Zhou names Kobe Bryant as his biggest inspiration and explains why he’s such a hero (29:06). Finally, he offers some advice for the next generation of Chinese drivers (30:47) and shares what he rates as his top strength as a driver (32:16).
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Mark escapes Beijing, leaving the ghost town that PEK airport has become (0:18), while the city of Beijing slips into a lockdown in all but name (2:03). China’s COVID policy has devastated the growth of sports at a time when it should be booming (3:00). The Asian Games are postponed – they simply don’t have the same political significance of the Olympics (4:45). Could they, or the twice-postponed World University Games, realistically be held next year, given the current restrictions (7:30)? Meanwhile, there’s some good news about China’s hockey teams: both the men’s and women’s teams have won promotion in their groups at the World Championships, keeping the majority of the “heritage players” who featured at the Olympics (9:13).
Our guest this week is Zhang Ting, a sports industry expert who spent a decade with sports recruitment firm SRi. (11:41) Now with UFC in Shanghai overseeing business development and sponsorship, Zhang discusses how China’s sports industry can emerge from COVID-19. Zero-COVID has meant incredible challenges domestically, but the fitness industry has provided something of a silver lining (12:50). There’s been a growth in Chinese fitness brands gaining in popularity, in parallel to the growth of the actual industry (15:00).
Zhang then talks about the rise of Chinese sportswear brands, how they’ve been successful, their different strategies, and why some are a real threat to Adidas and others (16:30). But she argues that only the Chinese brands with solid products and sound brand strategies will survive, and not because they have the cheapest products (18:15). Does the rise of new, niche sports present an opportunity for up-and-coming brands (19:23)? What about the positives for the sports industry due to the pandemic — such as the development of the domestic skiing industry — or are they outweighed by the negatives (21:45)?
Next, Zhang discusses her current role with the UFC and how she approaches sponsorship acquisition and monetizing the brand (25:00). She shares some of the challenges she’s faced in her role and explains how the UFC’s brand and the brands of individual fighters can be two very different things (26:03). Dealing with sponsors’ concerns can be a challenge, such as convincing them that the UFC is safe (29:37). She reveals the success she’s had with Chinese brands going global (31:36), and outlines what it takes to be a success in the sports industry (33:13). Finally, Zhang discusses some challenges specific to women in the sports industry in China, as well as some opportunities (36:20).
Make sure to tune in next week for a very special guest (42:53)!
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With Mark and Haig recording their last face-to-face show before some summer travel (0:36), news is coming through that the World University Games in Chengdu will be postponed for a second time (2:03) [UPDATE: Mark’s sources were right, as both those Games and the Asian Games in Hangzhou have now both been postponed]. The decision was mostly because of COVID — what isn’t these days? — but Russia was stripped of its 2023 hosting rights, so there’s a gap on the calendar (3:43). Meanwhile, far fewer weightlifters will perform at the 2024 Paris Olympics, meaning a big hit to China’s gold medal hopes (6:00). Plus, Eileen Gu heads back to the U.S. after three months in China, with the most polarizing athlete in the U.S.-China sphere prompting yet more praise and criticism in equal measures (8:45).
Our guest on the show spent the first decade of his life in Shanghai; this week, Cameron Dicker signed with the world champions LA Rams in the NFL. Dicker the Kicker, as he’s known, joins us from Dallas, where he’s going through some offseason training reps (14:26). Dicker explains how his family ended up in China (14:53), shares some stories from his Chinese experience (15:25), and recalls some not-so-fond memories playing football in China (15:55).
After moving to the U.S. for the first time, age 11, did he feel like he was starting too late or he was still young enough to adapt (17:17)? Dicker explains how he transformed from being a soccer player to a kicker and punter for the University of Texas (18:31), but at what point did he first realize he had a shot at making an NFL roster (22:00)? Perhaps surprisingly, his China experience came up repeatedly during his NFL draft interviews (22:46), and Dicker explains how his time abroad has helped him become a better athlete (24:13).
Kickers don’t often get drafted, but the newly-signed Dicker says he’s using that snub as motivation for the future (25:50). He explains how he’s getting ready for his first training camp with the Rams (26:40), lays out his expectations for his rookie year (28:50), reveals whether he thinks he has a better shot in the league as a kicker or as a punter (29:38), and learns for the first time that the Rams have been designated as “China’s team”, prompting dreams of a return trip to Shanghai one day (30:24).
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It’s a strange time in Beijing right now, with mandatory testing and food flying off the shelves at supermarkets. Sports take a back seat, as Mark and Haig brace for a possible lockdown (0:52). Will the Asian Games in Hangzhou — scheduled for September this year — be postponed (6:02)? What kind of spectacle could we expect – bubble or not (8:21)? Haig talks about Shannon Bufton, a competitive cyclist turned Beijing bike maker and route planner (9:20).
We catch up again with Cameron Wilson, who — one month later — is still in lockdown (15:00). He shares his lows of the past month, plus the occasional high (17:53), but at least the food situation has improved with the arrival of an army of delivery drivers (19:24). China’s case-counting headscratcher — and the new definition of cases “in society” — has once again muddied the situation (20:02). It’s a little like Lord of the Flies in Cammy’s compound, with four recent cases, despite weeks of being locked at home (21:26). Cammy hits his stride here, arguing that this outbreak was entirely predictable, and asks why on earth more people haven’t been vaccinated (23:00). He’s been in Shanghai for more than 16 years: Has he reached his limit (24:58)?
In a seamless transition to football, former Manchester United and Belgium player Marouane Fellaini has returned to China ahead of the start of the CSL season (27:43), which will expand from 16 to 18 teams this year, despite the widespread financial insecurity (29:07). Could a small Shandong city host this year’s league in a bubble (29:28)? And is the 2023 Asian Cup, set for China next June, in doubt (31:12)? When is — or should be — the cutoff date for making a decision on whether or not to hold it here (32:42)? Finally, Cameron leaves us with a story about banging pots and yelling out of the window (34:00).
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On this episode, feedback from last week’s interview with Rudi Ying (0:50), ESPN’s detailed look at Nets owner Joe Tsai (1:34), the NBA’s (very) rocky road back to televised games in China (2:53), why — perhaps — the Clippers were shown on China’s national broadcaster first (4:38), why the Sixers and Celtics drew longer bans than the rest (6:00), an absence of new material in the ESPN article (6:52), and Lebron James raging at other players about then-Rockets GM Daryl Morey (8:23).
Our guest this week is Greg Squires, a “heritage” ice hockey player — i.e. a North American of Chinese descent —who started the season with China’s Kunlun Red Star (KRS) but is now back in the U.S. (9:46). Squires explains how he first got scouted by KRS (11:14), after wondering how the team even knew about his Chinese roots (12:00). He was recalled to the side in 2021 with the promise of an Olympic spot (13:48) but ended up being cut alongside four other players (14:31).
Squires offers his opinions on the best mix of homegrown and heritage players for China and reveals whether the local players were ready to play pro hockey (16:03). He says political priorities were more important than performance (19:09) and describes the divisions between the heritage and local players (21:03). Chinese hockey authorities, he says, tried to stop players on the men’s team from discussing their contract situations with those on the women’s team (23:34), adding that there was a sense of relief by the time his KRS contract was terminated (26:09).
Squires also reveals what was it like to watch his former teammates play at the Olympics (27:20), scrapes the barrels in his search for positives about the direction of the game in China (27:54), and laments the fact that KRS failed to do any marketing or fan outreach in China (29:30). He offers his thoughts on why the women’s team has seen more success than the men’s (31:57), shares some of the wildest things that happened with the team on the road (35:30), including one story involving legendary coach Mike Keenan (37:24), gives an update on the rest of his season in Sweden and his future plans (38:54), and reveals one thing he would love to change about Chinese hockey (40:27).
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In a round-up of the week’s news, F1’s Chinese rookie Zhou Guanyu narrowly missed out on the points — again — while there was a naming clarification from his team (3:03). The Chinese women’s ice hockey team has been lighting it up at the World Championships in Poland (4:48), with former Kunlun standout Melanie Jue — who features prominently in Mark’s book “Sporting Superpower” — back in the fold as an assistant coach (6:01). Meanwhile, Eileen Gu is still hanging out in Beijing, and posed with fans at Home Plate BBQ in Sanlitun this week (7:00).
Our guest this week is Chinese Olympic ice hockey player Rudi Ying, who first connected with Mark after he wrote this piece last year on the dismal state of the men’s team (8:45). Ying explains why he’s not headed to the men’s World Championships later this month (10:16), which will offer him some time off for the first time in a long, long while (11:31). Recalling the lead-up to the Olympics, Ying describes the general uncertainty in the camp and how everything felt like a “last-minute emergency situation” — despite the five-year planning period (13:16).
Joining the KHL wasn’t necessarily a good step for Chinese hockey (14:51), says Ying, who first hooked up with Kunlun Red Star (KRS) in 2016 after playing junior hockey in Canada (15:54). Playing 3-4 minutes a night as a teenager in the KHL was not ideal for his development, he says, and he admitted to feeling “terrified” every time he stepped on the ice (17:14).
Years later as the Olympics approached, rifts formed at KRS between native Chinese players and the “heritage players” — North American players of Chinese descent — with unequal treatment for the two groups (19:43). Ying himself had something of an identity crisis, stuck somewhere between the two sides (21:27). Dealing with mandates from Chinese hockey authorities was like “Halloween night and the national team wore a KHL costume” (23:31). One particular low point was learning that a two-month camp in spring 2020 was going to last indefinitely, something which took a mental toll (24:20). The choice for players was to stay in camp — or leave and give up their Olympic dream. Two of the three captains chose to leave (26:21).
Now 23, Ying says he’s considering his options — one of which might be leaving the game altogether (27:52). Mark and Haig look for positives, but Ying is pessimistic about Chinese hockey. Things, he says, are not going in the right direction (31:20). He recalls his emotions when news originally broke that NHL players would be going to the Olympics — with Canada and the U.S. drawn in China’s group (33:40). He also speaks openly about how committed the heritage players were — or not — to the Chinese program (35:08). In contrast to certain others, Ying says goalie Jeremy Smith earned the respect of all the Chinese players (40:54), before describing his own highlight at the Olympics (41:55).
Finally, he explains what needs to be done to improve the hockey system in China (43:00), discusses how to improve the pipeline of players (44:18), recalls growing up with Song Andong, who became the first China-born player to be drafted in the NHL (45:42), and reveals his future ambitions to be a film director — inspired, in part, by his father, who’s famous for bringing sitcoms to China (47:43).
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