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We’re back with another On the Journey episode! We had a fascinating conversation with Living Joyfully Network member Ari Lambie. Ari is a mom of three young children and she spoke with us about her journey. We talked about the philosophy of learning, the fallibilism of humans, creativity, children’s social development as well as their capability, and a lot more.
It was a really rich conversation and we hope you find it helpful!
Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube.
THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODEWe invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network, a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents. It’s a non-judgmental space where you can steep in these unconventional ideas around parenting, relationships, and learning, and explore what they might look like day-to-day in your uniquely wonderful family. We offer a free month trial so you can see if it’s a good fit for you. Click here to join us.
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Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about exploring unschooling and navigating relationships.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPTANNA: Hello everyone, I’m Anna Brown with Living Joyfully, and today I’m joined by my co-host Erika Ellis and Pam Larcchia, as well as our special guest today, Ari Lambie. Hello to you all.
Before we get started, I just want to mention the Living Joyfully Network. It’s a lovely place where you can find support at any stage of your journey, and I feel so lucky to get to hang out with so many amazing people from all over the world. If you’d like to join us, we’ll put the link in show notes, and you can also go to our website livingjoyfully.ca, and there’s a link right on the home page.
I am so excited that Ari is here with us today. She is one of those amazing members of the Network I was just mentioning, and it’s been so fun getting to know her and her family. She loves to dive into all the nuances, and that is my favorite, so I’m very excited.
Ari, just to get us started, can you tell us a little bit about you and your family and what everyone’s interested in right now?
ARI: Sure. Well, thanks so much for having me. I’m really grateful to be here. I am Ari, and I’m part of a family of five. We live in Portland, Oregon. My husband, Joaquin, is a critical care doctor, so he spends a lot of time taking care of people and solving challenging problems, but he’s also really fun. He brings a lot of light energy to the house. He likes to cook, which I love. I mean, I don’t love cooking, so I love that he cooks.
He also likes to garden and play sports and come up with challenging ideas and concepts that are away from the norm, which is our favorite thing to talk about. We’ve been together for 20 years, and we just love talking about the ideas he comes up with, which makes me think hard and come back with either a new way of thinking or challenging him with a new idea. So, that’s what we spend a lot of time doing when we have time to ourselves.
My nine-year-old daughter likes to come in on those conversations sometimes. She really likes figuring out the world, talking about it. She likes to read. One of her interests is unusual animals, particularly marine animals. She’s taught me a ton about all these animals I’ve never heard of. She also likes to bake and do some crafty things. She likes to watch Minecraft videos and hang with friends. She spends a lot of time with her friends.
My seven-year-old is just this fantastic person of expression. She loves to draw. She loves to listen to music. She’s teaching herself how to play some music. She loves stories and is really good at telling stories. And she expresses herself with her body, too. She’s really athletic, and she gives the biggest, best hugs that you’ll ever feel.
My five-year-old, she’s really into pretend play. We play a lot of games together. She loves to be a pet in a pet store, and I come and have to buy her because she’s the most special pet in the store. Or we’ll play that we’re both shape-shifting dragons, and we have to defend against the other dragons. So that’s kind of her jam. She also likes to cook, and she’s really into numbers right now. She’s always figuring out how they go together, how they count up. So that’s been fun to play with her, too.
We all like to move. We’re all pretty physical. One of our favorite games is tag. When we go to the park, we will almost inevitably end up playing some form of freeze tag. We’ve invented lots of different games of freeze tag.
Me, I like to move outdoors. Hiking is probably one of my favorite hobbies right now. I also like to journal, and craft, and do art here and there. I spend most of my time hanging out with my kids and figuring out life. I’m loving it. It’s so nice.
PAM: It’s so great to hear about everybody. I feel like we say this every time, but it’s just so fun to hear the different kinds of expressions of each person, yet as you’re listening, you can see how they weave together. Like you were even saying, oh she likes to join in cooking. This one likes to join in on conversations. There’s so many pieces.
What I always love is just how it’s a beautiful expression of the idea of a family of individuals. How we can all be living together and being ourselves. Like you said, you’re very busy with parenting and figuring all those pieces out, and also you have the things that you enjoy doing, and that you notice you enjoy doing, and bringing those where they weave in to all the different pieces. So, I just, I love unschooling families.
ERIKA: I love that too, and yeah, it’s just making me think about, people are different, and how when we have these different individuals in our families, how we learn from each other, and I think initially when I went into parenting, I was thinking they’ll be a lot like me, and they’ll just learn from me kind of thing. I didn’t realize quite how much interconnected learning there would be, just because we’re all so different. I didn’t realize how different they could be, and I think, each child you add is just a whole new layer of learning for everyone in the family.
So, I love that for sure.
PAM: I think for me, that’s been one of the big shifts, was recognizing the individuals, right? As a family, we’re going to do this, and as a family, we’re going to do that, and then recognizing that legitimately doesn’t work for some of us, and that was kind of an eye-opening moment.
Okay, so the next question. We are very interested to hear a bit more about how you discovered unschooling, and what ideas and people have influenced you so far along the way, because, you know, the journey keeps going, doesn’t it?
ARI: Yeah, I don’t think it’ll ever end. So, my interest in unschooling started about four years ago, when I read a book by a physicist named David Deutsch. He talked about a lot of physics concepts that are beyond me, but he also talks about this philosophy or understanding of knowledge, and how knowledge grows, and it really shook up my understanding, but made it clearer to me what I believed, it made it make more sense.
And he draws a lot on a 20th century philosopher, Karl Popper, who coined the term, the bucket mind theory, I guess it is. So, thinking about the mind as a bucket, where you pour knowledge in, which is wrong, but it’s how a lot of us think about how knowledge is passed from one person to another.
It’s just this receiving process, where someone tells you information, and you receive it, but Deutsch and Popper challenge this and say, learning is actually a creative process. And it happens when we have a conflict in our mind, two things that are incompatible, as simple as a desire. I want this, and I don’t have it yet, or I want to understand this, and I don’t yet, and then what we do in our mind is we come up with ideas that can reconcile the conflict, or solve the conflict, and we use our knowledge to criticize all the ideas we come up with.
A lot of this is subconscious, but we’re criticizing our ideas, and picking the one that is the best explanation, and then we try it out, and then we see how the world responds, and we learn more information. This idea just made so much sense to me. They apply it to a larger scale, how humans as a species gain knowledge, and how science advances, but it also applies to the individual, so that really got me thinking.
I realized that school is so much based on the bucket theory of pouring knowledge in, and it doesn’t really allow for as much of this creative trying, or see your ideas are as valid as anybody’s, let’s hear more about them, so that was a big knock against school for me.
Deutsch also talks about the fallibilism of humans, that we’re just, most of our ideas are wrong. We don’t know anything for sure, and school sends the message, at least I got the message in school, that we’re telling you information, this is how it is, and it’s not going to change, we’re the authority here. I think that’s a real disservice, because the truth is that knowledge is always changing, the truth is, these are our best explanations right now, but in the future, we’ll probably prove most of this wrong. And so I think it’s dangerous to tell kids, this is how it is, don’t think that it could be different
So, you combine these ideas of creativity, that learning is about creativity, and that our ideas are always coming up with better explanations, replacing things, and it shows the big problem with ever forcing a person to think a certain way, or to do a certain thing, because even when you think you’re telling somebody to do something because it’s in their best interest, you’re probably wrong. We just don’t know enough about the world, or about that particular person, and then you’re also taking away their ability to come up with their own ideas, and test them out. That’s how they’re going to learn about their interfacing with the world, and how they want to be, and the best understanding that they can come to. You stunt human progress, because you’re limiting ideas, new ideas for us to test out.
Those were all big epiphanies for me, this new way of thinking, and I was like okay, so we should avoid forcing people as much as possible. It changed my view on society really. But I still wasn’t sure that it could apply to children. I had a five-year-old, a three-year-old, and a baby at the time, and I was telling them what to do a lot, and so I was like how do you apply this to, does this even apply to children.
So, I did some research, and I was like yes, people are doing this. Kids are full humans, they can be seen as creative knowledge growers as much as anybody, in fact they’re more creative, because they haven’t learned to criticize as much. I found John Holt, I found Peter Gray, I found you all, I found the term unschooling, and I was like wow, this is possible.
So, I talked with the family, presented it to my oldest, who was in kindergarten at the time, and our life was not as interesting as it was before they started preschool and kindergarten, I was not feeling, I don’t know, not as full myself, schlepping them places, and just dealing with the, let’s get to places on time energy. My oldest was starting to get a little bored with her experience in kindergarten, and she was all for staying home and continuing to play, so that’s when we started.
ANNA: All right, see, this is exciting though, because I think it’s so interesting, that idea that he was talking about, and that you were looking into that, how it really does systematically shut down that creative mind, that critical thinking mind. What a disservice, it really is. That’s why it’s so hard for me when, and I know it feels to people like such a radical concept, but I just think, oh my gosh, how does it not make sense, you can see it happening, and I think it’s just so fascinating. I love that this idea was related to adults. And still I think for many people it’s that resistance, but can it be for kids? I see that with so many interesting people that are putting interesting ideas out in the world, and so often are not applying to children, and I just think, whoa, you’re really missing the boat, one, because kids have so much to teach us, and they bring such creativity to things, but I just think, wow, you are missing that the ideas definitely apply to kids. That was very interesting, thank you.
PAM: The part that really bubbled up for me, that connected, because I feel like that’s something that I learned so strongly at school, that still gets in my way, so yeah, maybe it might be partly personality-based, but the idea of having the right answer first before acting. That is something I learned watching my kids, but still, it’s so ingrained.
I have to literally remember, and which is why I talk pretty often, and I don’t know if we’ve shared it yet, the Baby Steps episode from the Living Joyfully Podcast, but Baby Steps have become a mantra for me to remind myself to think, just as you were describing, what’s my best interpretation or thought or idea about this thing that I am feeling a push with? And go try it, and see what I learned, because I’ll learn more by trying it, more that I can take back, rather than just intellectually trying to solve it completely to the end, before I ever actually take it out in the world and see what it looks like.
So, I’ve spent all that time trying to figure it out, versus experimenting. I think maybe it looks like this, boom, go try it, learn some more, come back and, ooh, I’m going to tweak it a little bit more from what I learned, how things unfolded in that moment, and I’m going to take that idea out into the world and test it, that just makes so much sense.
It is how I saw, even though my kids were in school for a handful of years before they came home, but yeah, that period was just, like, releasing the crud, right. The crud that they had been absorbing, so their own kind of de-schooling, but mistakes still were not yet this huge, horrible thing to them. They didn’t even see them as mistakes, they just said, oh, that didn’t work as I expected, let me bring that information, tweak it, and try it a little bit differently next time, or two minutes from now when I want to keep pushing down this path. For me to recognize that mistakes aren’t literally bad, they’re just more learning, they’re just more context to the situation that I’m pulling in,
And that, to me, that’s where the creativity lies, because the more little bits of information I have, or if we think about learning as a web, the more little connections I’ve got, the more creative I can be, because I have more pieces to play with, to bring together.
It reminds me, you were talking about the discussions you and your husband love to have about very interesting things, it’s like, oh, let’s pull it apart this way, what if we look at it this way, what if we go way over here, and what would that look like, let’s go try it, or even if it’s a mind experiment. It’s just so fun and creative, and that’s what learning is, versus the, oh my gosh, here’s the bucket, take the fire hose, all the stuff you’re supposed to memorize and implement, because it’s the right way. Anyway, yes, so fun.
ERIKA: I feel like I’m going to be thinking about some of these for a while, it’s very interesting, and kind of a unique path to get to unschooling. I don’t know if I’ve heard this exact story before, which is really fun.
It was making me think, that idea of, you’re probably wrong, it could be a really good one to kind of play around with, because that’s so not what we learned growing up. It was, there’s one answer, that’s what the fact is. Then I was thinking back, and I remember in school, learning in science or something, we would learn something that people used to believe, like spontaneous generation, or something, where now we think how could they have been so clueless? I remember having the thought at that time, so what about now, don’t you think people in the future are going to be like, how could they have been so clueless back then?
So, I had that thought, but then you don’t really have a chance to play around with that. Everything is taught as facts now, and I just remember being, like, how will we know which ones of these are completely wrong, that we’re learning right now?
And so it is really interesting, and I think maybe approaching my kids with the idea that I’m probably wrong about what I think I know about whatever it is, I think that could be helpful. It might also make it more challenging to know what to say sometimes. I think I grew up in that environment of, you listen to the person, and they know what’s true, and that’s it. It feels super expansive to kind of shift that.
ARI: Yeah, I love all that. I think the way we try to come at our kids is not with that authority of, we know what’s best, but we have some ideas. We have stories that we’ve experienced, and we try to look at our kids. Are they interested in hearing from us about this topic?
And when you were talking, Pam, I was thinking about how the internal versus external processor, how maybe you go try things out, and that’s how you test ideas and criticize them and come up with better ones. A lot of people like to process them against the knowledge they have in their head or maybe go read about stuff. I love how you all talk about these different kinds of processing.
Some people want to talk to other people. The problem with the mindset that we learn in school is that talking to another person means asking an authority for the answer when it could mean let’s bounce some ideas around, like, what do you think of my ideas? Tell me your ideas. Let’s come up with what’s the best one to try, you know?
PAM: Yeah, or cheating, right? Then don’t talk to them about it. It does very much say you have to learn it all, and you have to regurgitate it this way. Just imagine external processors. You can’t talk to the teacher. You can’t talk to the other students in the classroom, and do you have a lot of time for processing outside of the school hours?
That was something that surprised me when my kids first came home, because we went from very scheduled and busy and stuff, right, and I thought, oh, well, we’re not going to school anymore. We have all this time to do other things, but then to realize that, they’re like, no, thank you. No, thank you. They spend so much more time just processing and engaging in what they were interested in, much more than I was kind of expecting. I thought, oh, I’m going to have to keep them busy, and that too is personality-based.
Some people like to, but that’s the difference. Even when we went to, say, the Science Center, seeing the difference between how they moved through exhibits and just the whole environment versus how the school kids in the exhibit right beside us were moving through it. They had no control, no agency over that pace, and they didn’t even get to choose what they were trying to process because they had the little worksheet that said, at this exhibit, when you do X, what happens. There was no time then to be creative with what is actually catching your attention. What would you like to focus on versus, what somebody else, authority, is telling you.
These are the important bits that you need to be picking out of that, right?
ANNA: Right, which I think makes you question things too, if you’re picking up different things than what the authority is picking up. I think a piece of my journey that’s related to this is, just kind of toying with the whole subjective reality piece, which I think was really the foundation for my understanding of how different people are. I do a lot of internal thinking about all the things, and that was really it for me.
Oh, things that feel like a fact, we are experiencing differently. So there was this nuance to the fact. The fact is that it’s 40 degrees outside. I’m cold, someone else is hot.
Okay, so we have a fact, but we have how we’re interacting with that fact. A dramatic example of one nation’s terrorist is another nation’s hero. There’s a fact of what happened, but the interpretation of the fact is so subjective, and so it was just this idea of, wow, we are experiencing the very same things very differently because we’re all so different. That just really changed so many things about the way I related to my kids, related to the people in my life.
Then we’ve just built on that as we’ve talked about relationships, but I think it’s all related. And I think school really stifles that understanding because it’s trying to put everything in a very neat box. And again, I think it can make kids kind of doubt themselves too, because they’re seeing different things that are just as important, but that aren’t being highlighted on the worksheet.
ERIKA: I think the younger kids, especially, like, when you’re describing being able to talk things through and that everyone’s ideas have value. I feel like it gets more like that when you get into college and beyond where people actually want to talk and professors want to hash things out. I mean, not everyone, but some.
But younger kids, you’re not ready for it. You know, you need me to dump all this information into your bucket because you don’t know anything yet. And so I think that’s so interesting that if we question that, kids have so many ideas and are so open to that.
ARI: Simply the idea that they might know what they want. They’re having this subjective experience and they have unique wants. But no, we want to take them to this class and this activity and they shouldn’t be watching this TV. There’s just this idea that we know better what they want.
PAM: Right. We don’t trust. Like you said, we just can’t know. We can’t. And I think that’s why when we talk so often about this de-schooling phase of the journey, how so much of it we recognize quickly enough is our work to do.
Because we are questioning some of these more basic ideas and then playing with them and seeing how they unfold. Here’s the school’s conventional ideas and here’s, for lack of a better phrase, unschooling’s unconventional ideas. And it’s not about just taking those on wholesale as your new set of rules to follow, et cetera. Because then you don’t get that richness. You don’t get that understanding. You’re not playing around with them to see how they make sense for you. But to take this, like you were saying, that makes sense to me. Does this apply to children?
And then looking to your children and playing around with some of those ideas and then seeing how they actually unfold is how you learn how capable kids really are and how they can have an idea of subjectively what they want this experience to be. Notice that it’s different from the experience we were kind of hoping they were going to have.
But letting it play out and seeing, oh, look how super valuable that was for them, for who they are as that unique human being versus, yeah, sure, I could have said, oh, no, but do it this way, but do it this way. And they would have taken that in, but they would have taken it as my interpretation. And then, yes, you get into all the, oh, does that mean I’m wrong? Does that mean I can’t think through this properly?
I should be thinking about it and seeing and being interested in what they think, et cetera. So there’s all that piece that comes along when they didn’t get to play around with the one thing that they were super interested in about it all.
ERIKA: The next question we had is how you have shared on the network about how trust has been harder to find related to your children’s social development more than physical or intellectual development. I was hoping you could share a little bit about that journey and what has helped you in that area.
ARI: Yeah, it’s been really interesting to watch in myself how I have no qualms about the kids climbing up structures and maybe taking a tumble, playing sports and making mistakes. I see that as part of their physical development. And with intellectual, academic stuff, it was pretty easy for me to make the paradigm shift of if they follow their interests and their problem solving, they’re going to be able to lead their way here.
But when it came to social stuff, the moment my kid said something mean on the playground and I’m worried what the other kid is going to think, I immediately tense up and rush to intervene. Even if my kids like making a suggestion for a game to a stranger on the playground, I feel myself, oh no, what if, I don’t know if she asked it in the right way. What if the other kid says no and I’m so untrusting of their social exploration, it’s been really interesting. And so with all of your help, I’ve been exploring why that is and where I can go with it.
I think that the social stuff has always been really hard for me, or the hardest part for me. And so, in a way, I wish I had more help with it. And so I want to help my kids. And this is how I know how to help is to jump in and tell them what to do. I also think that in our society, and I’ve noticed it, in particular in the homeschool spheres, there’s this real desire for everyone to play nice. I think even families keep their kids out of school to avoid bullying and terrible behavior, which is legitimate.
But then it makes these expectations in the play spaces of, we don’t accept certain behaviors. And so we have less tolerance of their developmental journey in this social stuff. They’re supposed to know how to act now, which I think is really interesting.
And so I feel that social pressure. And then the third piece, I think, is that I feel like my impact on the world, my desire to bring certain energy, certain positivity to the world is intertwined with how my kids act, how my kids are in the world. And so if they do something socially that I don’t like, if they do something that might hurt someone, or behave in a way that is not how I would carry myself, then I think that’s a problem, because I am too connected.
So there are those three pieces that I’ve tried to work through. I think the first one, as far as me wanting to intervene, because social stuff is hard for me, I’ve unpacked as like, would little Ari have wanted more instructions, more judgment, telling me how to act? Or would I have wanted curiosity and more questions like, what’s going on for you? Compassion, trying to understand what’s going on. And an acknowledgement that we don’t know the right way, there’s no right way to act, right?
Language like, this is not okay, or we don’t do that. That doesn’t fit in my sphere anymore. It’s more about, what was this experience? And do you want to process it with me?
That’s the energy I would like to bring to my kids. It’s still a struggle. I get triggered all the time. But I try to think back on what would have helped me and looking into my kids eyes, what is going to be helpful for them now? Is it judgment? Is it instruction? Or is it this openness and acknowledgement that you’re on a journey and you don’t have to get it right now.
First of all, there is no right, but also, it’s just a long learning process. And then with the social expectations, I’ve tried to surround myself with people who are interested in trusting their kids more. And I found some beautiful people. And that’s been helpful.
I acknowledge that we don’t want our kids to be hurt. So we still want to talk to our kids about and inform them if somebody else is being impacted by their behavior. I try to just have a lot of conversations without judgment around that. And I think helping our kids through difficult social situations by being okay. Helping our kids know that hurt is going to happen and that I’m here for you and what do we want to do about it? Instead of mom should have prevented that.
I think there’s just so much more nuance to their social development than kids should have these instructions of how to treat other people. Because social interactions are really complicated. And then, my biggest aha, I think, has been untangling my impact from my kids’ impact.
I think there’s a story that I have. And I think a lot of people believe that our kids are part of our way of making the world a better place. We’re raising our kids to be good people so that the world can be a better place. And the moment, this statement came into my head that my children are not my agents to make the world a better place. It’s like, whoa, that’s me. That’s about my actions. And they are full people. And I am here to support them in becoming who they are. That has been a really helpful aha moment for me.
ANNA: Yeah, that one’s huge. And I think that is interesting, because I think we do often put things on children that are really ours to carry. It is okay for me to say I want to be this change agent myself, but this idea that our kids can do that is super interesting.
But something when you were talking earlier to just the idea of, we tend to focus so intently on behaviors that we really do miss those nuances of needs that are happening underneath of that. And so when we’re solely focused on, even just the labeling of bullying behavior, it’s like, oh, there’s so much underneath of that. Now, granted, in a school environment, they don’t have the tools or the time or the people that can work with that. So, I totally get wanting to get kids out of an environment like that that doesn’t feel safe.
But when we have engaged parents with kids, we’re able to dig under that to see, oh, is this actually not a good environment? Have we not eaten? Is there something else going on? We can look at all these pieces. And when we’re having that kind of conversation with our kids, they’re actually learning about their own triggers, like, okay, I don’t do well in large crowds, or I need to eat before we do something, or I can only last two hours.
That’s so much more productive for everyone, for the family and the group as a whole. But for the individual to have the space to learn about themselves in that way, when they’re young, is so valuable. I also feel for you because I’ve been there feeling that like, oh, that’s not what I would say. That’s not how I would have handled that. And I love just being able to help myself, find that compassion for the person and really see them and have really seen so many people just kind of melt under that and just feel really held. And have a real learning opportunity of what was happening for them in that moment. There were just so many interesting things about that.
PAM: So many. I mean, it really is the piece, maybe I’m reiterating again, but that piece of how much they’re learning about themselves, having the space to process that, spaces in that doesn’t mean literally leaving them alone, because that’s what we feel we’re supposed to do or anything. We have the conversations and they’re like, I don’t want you to come jumping in if you see, I want to try this, this and this.
But you’ve made that plan beforehand. This is an experiment that you’re running. This is how you’re trying and how you’re going to learn more about all the pieces. Because like you were saying, there’s just so much context to every moment. Maybe one park day, everything goes fine, there are no big blow ups or anything. And, the next one, there’s clashes.
And to be able to chat more about the context of those moments. And if you don’t have as much of a chatter, we’re still observing. I think that was one of the things too, so often was seeing that, like you talked about finding a group of engaged parents, Ari.
And I think that makes a huge difference because so often it was the parents all off in one area and then the kids just off on their own. And I was often one of the only parents who would hang out with the kids. They’re fun.
But because we saw what was going on, we could have meaningful conversations after about it. When they did this, how are you feeling? Or we have enough information and context to have meaningful conversations to process through which they can learn.
I was really hungry or I was frustrated because like three interactions ago, something happened that I was stewing about that came with me. So my cup was almost full. And this one little thing which I could have moved through 90 percent of the time just kind of filled me up and I exploded because of that.
Those are all such valuable pieces to learn about ourselves. And for them to learn about us, like moving forward that they can bring that you can then prep for it. Like you were saying, eating before you go, noticing the time and maybe even having like a code word for when it’s time.
There were times when I’m like, we’ll totally just blame this all on me or whatever. Like I’ll come up and say, oh, we have to go, we have to go. And we’ll have prearranged it before that, that they’re going to want to go at this point.
Or if we see something happen, but then I am able to just pull them out of it. We are just learning so much every time we just try something out and see it takes us right back to where you started. I try something out and see how it unfolds and what do we learn from it?
And yes, it applies here too. But yeah, socially, that can be a hard place to take these ideas or a more challenging place to take these ideas. Because there are so many social roles. And like you said, you kind of have to find the people who are also willing to engage with social situations in the same kind of way.
ERIKA: It is so interesting. I think it’s just an area that triggers us, because of our own experiences and how you’re describing that social life was hard for you. Then that’s so triggering. I have the same experience with my kids. I don’t want them to lose their friends. I want them to be accepted and I want them to not be rejected.
And there are these very kind of almost scary feelings that can come up for me. It feels very urgent that this go well. And I just hope that they say the right thing. It’s a panicky feeling that can come up for me. But just like everything else, there’s no one right way, which you mentioned, which I think is so huge. That doesn’t even seem possibly true at the beginning.
But then it’s like, well, of course, there’s not one right way to behave socially. And that it requires learning like anything else in life. And so just being open to it, they’re going to try things and see how it turns out. And that’s just how humans learn. And that’s okay. That’s safe. It’s been really interesting to sit with the reality of that.
My oldest does a lot of processing of social things with me. That has been very enjoyable to have things occur and him to notice things he didn’t the first time, after our discussion. So he’ll be like, so and so is really making me mad right now, he’s furious. And I’m like, oh, my gosh, what’s going on? But then he’ll bring things up. I think he probably didn’t sleep well, you know, just the context pieces or we don’t know. Maybe I could provide information. His mom’s been out of town all week or just different things.
There are things that go on with people, maybe it’s hormones. And so we’ve talked about hormones and maybe it’s all these different things. And so just kind of giving everyone more space, I guess, to make mistakes socially and that to be like, and we’re still okay. And we can make repairs.
It’s such a different feeling and story than I had when I was growing up. I feel like the validation I got from my mom was kind of like, that’s a mean person. It wasn’t about, I wonder what’s going on with them. It was more, no one should talk to you like that. They must be a mean person kind of feeling. Maybe she didn’t use those words, but that was what I internalized about it.
So, yeah, I totally appreciate that this area is so hard sometimes. I really enjoy hearing you process about it and just opening up to, there’s no one right way, even here.
ANNA: Yeah. Something you said too, that I think a lot of us deal with is we take our childhood experiences and I mean, of course, because they’re a part of us, right? And so they become these triggers in these situations with our kids. But I think it’s so important to remember how different the environment is for our kids. You are there to have those conversations and those nuanced pieces. And it is so different.
And almost the stakes, while they still feel high, I know what you’re saying, Erika, they are lower. In the sense of my experience of school was just me having to go to this place and figure it all out on my own. I had a close relationship with my mom, but she didn’t know anything about school or the politics of school or what was happening at school. And so I didn’t even bring that to her.
I think it’s so different when we’re with our kids more in this weaving in and out of our lives day to day, where they just have that space to talk about their feelings and what’s happening with it. And even if they’re not kids that share every little bit, there’s just some different nuances there related to how we support our kids. So it’s always important for me to remember, that was my experience. And it was so hard because I didn’t have the support.
But I guess that’s what I liked about what you said, too, Ari, asking what would I have wanted? Would I really have wanted somebody to jump in and tell me what to do? Or would I have wanted this nonjudgmental space with somebody to help me figure it out for myself? I thought that was really interesting.
ARI: I think it’s one of the most rewarding parts of parenting in this way that our kids come to us to process. Like you were describing, Erika, when they just see a moment and they know that it’s always an opportunity to process with mom or anybody here. It’s just a beautifully different environment.
PAM: It just reminds me of, I always remember the drive home from Girl Guides meetings. That was always a big processing time. But what stood out for me often was just like you were saying, Erika. It’s like, oh, so-and-so seemed like really out of sorts today or whatever, whatever. And she would be explaining to me, yeah, because X, because Y. Where I feel this defensive mama bear come up. But I got to the space where I could just recognize that in me. Doesn’t make it wrong either, right? Nothing, it’s not wrong, wrong. It’s just recognizing that experience.
And then when I just put a little sentence out there, I get the whole context and the understanding. And I was like, oh, yeah. That’s the human being I want to be.
ANNA: Whoa, right? It’s not getting defensive. Being able to see other people’s experience.
And also, just be able to make that repair if it’s needed. Or be open to repair if something’s happened to us. I think it’s a big difference. And it’s a learning process, right?
It’s not perfect for any of us at any age. And so this expectation that kids are going to be perfect doesn’t make sense, but it’s creating that environment where that’s possible. And I feel like even, Ari, some of the stuff you’ve talked about on the network, you’ve seen changes in them as they’ve had this freedom. Especially your oldest to really be understood in some of the ways that she was approaching situations. So I think that was really cool.
ARI: Absolutely.
ANNA: Well, thank you so much. This was a lot of fun and I just really, really enjoyed it. And we hope everybody enjoyed our conversation, maybe had a little aha moment or picked up on some ideas to consider for your own personal journey.
And of course, if you enjoy these conversations and want to come hang out with us, we’d love to have you join us at the Living Joyfully Network. It is really such an amazing group of people connecting and having thoughtful conversations about all the things that we encounter in life, our own and our kids and all the things. So we invite you to check it out and see if it fits with our free month offer.
And you’ll find the link in the show notes or you can go to livingjoyfully.ca and the link is on the homepage. But thank you so much again for joining us. It was just really great to hang out with you all.
ARI: Thank you for having me.
PAM: Thank you, Ari.
ERIKA: Thank you so much, Ari.
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For this week’s episode, we’re sharing the next Foundations episode of the Living Joyfully Podcast with Pam and Anna, Baby Steps.
So often, when we’re faced with a challenge or making a choice, we don’t need to have the full picture or the final answer in order to move forward. By taking a baby step in the direction that makes sense to us or to our loved ones, we can learn more about the situation and see how it feels. One baby step can lead naturally to the next. As we keep communicating and checking in, we can find a path forward that works for everyone.
We hope today’s episode sparks some fun insights for you!
Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube.
THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODEWe invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network, a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents. It’s a non-judgmental space where you can steep in these unconventional ideas around parenting, relationships, and learning, and explore what they might look like day-to-day in your uniquely wonderful family. We offer a free month trial so you can see if it’s a good fit for you. Click here to join us.
Sign up to our mailing list on Substack to receive our email newsletters as well as new articles about learning, parenting, and so much more!
Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about exploring unschooling and navigating relationships.
EPISODE QUESTIONSDoes it feel like many of the day to day choices you’re making are urgent? Are they really? If you haven’t listened to episode 8 yet about Anna’s mantra, “there’s plenty of time,” I highly recommend it. Thinking back, can you remember a time when you felt pressured (often by ourselves!) to make a decision quickly yet the better choice wasn’t immediately clear? Can you think of a series of baby steps that might have helped? Feel free to get creative! Is there a choice or a goal you’re considering right now that feels big? You don’t need to know exactly how you’d get there, but can you see a baby step in that direction? Can you do that and see what happens? Are you more of a leap-first person or a firm-footing person? What about your partner? Your children? How can understanding that help you communicate with them about future decisions?TRANSCRIPTPAM: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We are happy you’re here exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.
If you’re new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen to the earlier episodes. We started with some foundational relationship ideas in these first dozen episodes and have really enjoyed how they are building on one another. And if you’ve already been enjoying the podcast, please share it with the people in your life that you think would benefit from contemplating these ideas. It’s super easy to share. Just send them to pod.link/livingjoyfully. From there, they can pick their favorite podcast player and it will take them right to the show in that app. Thanks so much for helping us spread the word.
And so, this week, we are going to talk about the idea of baby steps. When we’re trying to make a choice, so often, we don’t need to make the big, ultimate decision right now. This builds on the idea that there’s plenty of time, which we talked about a few weeks ago. These are the threads that are moving through them all.
So, maybe we’re not yet sure whether we want to pursue the end goal that we’re considering. When we find ourselves here, what’s often missing is more information or experience. So, taking the next baby step in that direction can give us more information to help us make that bigger picture decision. Sometimes we need to take quite a few baby steps before we get a keen sense of what we ultimately want to do.
Or, maybe our partner or child wants to do something that stretches our comfort zone. Chances are, we don’t need to make a yes/no choice immediately. Staying open and curious, which we talked about last week, can help us take the next baby step in that direction and just learn more about what it entails and how it feels. It can also give us a better understanding of why they’re wanting to go in that direction and some experience that can help us better explain our perspective. We’re learning more about them and we’re learning more about ourselves.
That deeper level of self-awareness and having a better grasp of the language around their goal, now we can have more meaningful and connected conversations with them. There’s just so much we can learn when we try just that next baby step, isn’t there?
ANNA: Oh my gosh, yes. And it really is the natural extension of last week’s discussion on being open and curious. When our partner or child brings us something they want to do, sometimes if we don’t see the whole path clearly, we’ll just shut it down. At the first thought of resistance, we’re just like, “No, that doesn’t sound doable.” But if instead we can ask some questions and start walking in that direction, we learn so much more about each other and also about the task at hand. What does it really mean? What is it really going to entail?
We don’t have to commit to that end goal, like you’re saying, right away. Taking that first step helps us learn more and keeps us connected.
PAM: Yeah. Yeah. So, I have a story to share about taking baby steps and stretching my comfort zone, that, looking back, I do remember fondly.
It’s an example of how we don’t need to make all or nothing decisions immediately, and how choosing the next baby step does not mean that you’ve committed to a big yes right now.
So, this happened years ago now, in the aftermath of a big January snowstorm. My daughter was maybe 13 or 14 and we had tickets to see a concert in the city about an hour away. So, that morning, the snow was falling heavily and I was sure they’d cancel the show. People were being told to stay home if possible. I was looking forward to settling in and hanging out around the fire in our wood stove.
My daughter had been looking forward to the show and was understandably disappointed. I told her that I was pretty sure they’d reschedule the show. So, she wouldn’t miss it. It would just be postponed. She kept checking the website. And by early afternoon, they announced that the show was going to go on.
Obviously, she wanted to go and I wanted to stay home. I imagined all the hurdles in our way. And it seemed like way too much work, yet I could see her immense disappointment and I chose to shift to being open and curious about the possibility.
And though I couldn’t yet muster a, “Yes, let’s go!” I did manage to take a baby step to meet her with a maybe. Though the snow had now stopped falling, I explained the obstacles I saw and that I was willing to try the next baby step and see how it looked. If it looked okay, we’d try the next baby step and the next, and she agreed.
So, step one was, clean off the car and shovel enough of the driveway to get out by our planned departure time. And we did it, even after the snow plow went by and created another curb of snow at the end of the driveway that we had to dig through again.
So, step two, is our local rural road plowed and safely drivable? Once we could peek out and see the road, that was a yes, too. Step three was pack the car with extra hats and mitts and snacks in case we get stuck along the way. Done.
By the time we pulled out of the driveway, it felt like we were on quite the adventure. I was rather surprised we’d actually made it this far, but there was no point that said, “Stop,” so we kept going. Step four, as we slowly drove into the city, I reminded her that if the road or the traffic got bad, we would turn back. Even in her excitement, she was fine with that. It turned out that though the roads were snow-covered, they had been plowed, so it wasn’t deep, and traffic was very light. Slowly but surely, we made our way into the city.
Step five, we pulled into the venue parking lot. We were both so surprised to find ourselves there. It was almost surreal. I can still remember the feeling. So white and quiet outside. And inside, the concert turned out to be a very intimate show. The band thanked those who showed up and really connected with the audience as they played. It ended up being a pretty magical night.
I remember that day vividly because it was a great reminder that, when I’m feeling overwhelmed, when I’m feeling like I need to make a big yes/no choice, taking baby steps and looking around after each one to see what’s up and see how I’m feeling can be a really helpful way for me to move through it.
I could acknowledge both my discomfort and her enthusiasm, holding both of them gently in my hands. And baby step by baby step, explore whether we could find a path forward that worked for both of us.
And that said, sometimes we don’t have the capacity for that, and that’s okay. Sometimes we start out and come to an impasse. That’s okay, too. But sometimes we find a path of baby steps that works out. And over the years, that happened way more often than I expected. That inspired me each time just to give it a shot.
ANNA: Just to give it a shot! Oh my gosh. I love that story. And I think what I want to highlight is that by being open to those next steps and communicating along the way, you stayed on the same side.
You were a team. You were solving it together. You were traveling those next steps together. And you could have shut it down with a no saying, it’s just too snowy, which really wouldn’t have been that unreasonable of a reaction. But most likely, it would’ve led to some kind of rupture, even beyond the disappointment. Maybe even a slammed door or just some kind of upset. But instead, you dug into your concerns. You were honest about them, talked about them, and slowly started to address them together, knowing that at any time you could change your mind.
And what she saw was that you were trying, and again, that you were working together. And that is just such a different energy than making top-down decisions. Because had it not worked out, she would’ve seen the path of why it didn’t work out. The road’s impassable. We can’t get the driveway dug out. The car’s not starting. Whatever the real thing would’ve been, as opposed to you inside by the fire making that choice for her.
I think we can do this with our partners, too. They’ll have an idea and instead of examining where our reactions are coming from, we just react and we shut it down and it’s really disconnecting. And interestingly, we can do this whether the idea has anything to do with us or not. It’s really easy to fall into that trap of pointing out all the problems. Instead, we can listen, ask questions, celebrate the excitement that the person has for the idea. That’s what keeps us connected and helps us find the next steps that make sense.
So, it’s back to being open and curious. I want to cultivate that mindset when someone comes to me with an idea, because from that place, we can figure out any resistance and start to address it with those next baby steps. And the key with this process is to remain connected and curious. I can be honest about what’s coming up for me without judging or shutting down what’s happening for them and where they want to go.
I think part of it is releasing any sense of urgency, which we talk about a lot. I know sometimes I can feel pressured when somebody comes to me with a request, but what I’ve learned is that, if I answer from that place, I most likely will say no or something that disconnects us. It’s okay to ask for some time to think and gather your thoughts and consider things. And that’s back to, are you an internal or external processor? Taking time to think about what’s causing the resistance helps you to be able to communicate that with your partner and child.
And honestly, the first step is often just listening, like really listening. What’s behind the request? What are they excited about? How do they see it playing out? Then perhaps the next step is really still information gathering. There’s a lot you can do that’s pretty low stakes, but it shows that you’re open to understanding and trying to find a path forward, and it just makes all the difference in a relationship.
PAM: Yes, as an internal processor, I have said to my kids over the years and they learned to work with, “If you need an answer right now, it’s gonna be a no. But if you give me a few minutes to just take it in and figure out how it feels and what it looks like,” I just need to process it and it’s not something I can do aloud. As an internal processor, I just need to do it in my head. And do the different paths. Okay, so this is the change, this is what that change looks like over the rest of the day or week, depending on what it is. And then I’m like, “Oh yeah, that’s all good.” And then I go back and say, yes, or I actually discover what the hiccup is, and then I can go and say, “Oh, but look, that impacts this for me. How can we address that?”
But if I need to answer right away, I would say no. And most people are not like, “I’ll take the no right away, please.” So, seeing through their eyes is just so very helpful, because that’s what each baby step can help us with. So, even if I don’t get to a place where I share their level of excitement about the thing, I can definitely often get to a place where I can appreciate their excitement. And want it for them. That makes all the difference in the world for me.
ANNA: So much. And I think just what you were just talking about it, it’s important to acknowledge that there are differences that we can learn about in each other. And we talked a bit about that in episode three, but I think this is another potential difference that can trip up relationships.
So, you’re going to have the people who like to leap first, ask questions later, and then you’re going to have people who really need to feel out every step, to confirm that there’s some firm footing here before I go any further. And understanding where you lie on that continuum will help you communicate with your partner.
So, if you’re a leap-first person and you’re partnered with a firm-footing-only person, you can take that into consideration, just like your kids were able to do, and see that their questions are not about discounting your idea at all but that they’re trying to make the idea work for them.
So remember, often our work is to not take things personally, but to see that our partner’s actions or behaviors are trying to meet a need. And so, then we’re learning about one another and we’re learning about how to approach these conversations. So, even when you have two different styles, you can find ways to come together honoring each other. That starts with setting any defensiveness aside and trusting that the two of you will keep working to find a path forward that feels good.
You may find some unique combinations of leaping and planning or leaning on each other’s strengths to get the best outcome, because so often in these situations, it’s really a bit of both, right? Leaps of faith and some pre-planning that get us there. And sometimes there’s certain situations that are better served by one or the other, but knowing each of your strengths puts you in the best position to get where you want to go together and helping one another. Knowing that there are options and keeping the lines of communication open helps us remain connected even if we’re navigating difficult decisions or stretching our comfort zones.
PAM: Yes. Our differing personalities are such a great thing to consider when we’re talking about goals, paths, and what that next step might be. It makes all the difference. And as you were sharing there, what comes to mind for me is just the experience. Each time we move through it, we’re building trust with the other person. Trust that I will consider the kind of person you are. What feels good to you? What doesn’t feel good to you? I’m not gonna try and railroad my answer. But I’m not going to just accept your answer either and be martyrly about it, because that’s going to lead to burnout. That’s going to lead to overwhelm, all sorts of places. And sometimes that happens, but then there’s work to move through that and to get back to connection from there.
So, the more I can bring myself and be open and curious about other people, each time that happens, we build a little bit more trust that this process is working for us, no matter what path we ended up on. That, to me, was always one of the most fun things. Yes, there was a hard piece about the uncertainty, like going into the conversation, not knowing where we’d go, but oh my gosh, the places that we ended up so often were way more interesting and fun than the original path that I thought of.
ANNA: That’s so true, but that’s because we were open and created this environment where they could feel open to ask and respect and understand, and all of those pieces that weave together to create these strong, connected relationships that we’re talking about every week.
PAM: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, here are some questions you might want to ponder as you explore how taking baby steps can make choices and decisions easier. It’s a skill that you can definitely get better at through experience.
So, number one, does it feel like many of the day to day choices you’re making are urgent? Are they really? If you haven’t listened to episode eight yet about Anna’s mantra, There’s Plenty of Time, I highly recommend you start there.
Question two, thinking back, can you remember a time when you felt pressured (and that can be pressure we’re putting on ourselves) to make a decision quickly, yet the better choice wasn’t immediately clear? Can you think of a series of baby steps that might have helped you along the way? And feel free to get creative. It can feel like, oh, that’s just more work. But, oh my gosh, the journey is the experience.
ANNA: Exactly. And the creativity is all a part of it and what makes it a little bit lighter, not so much weight, as we can be creative together.
PAM: Yeah. All right. Question three. Is there a choice or a goal you’re considering right now that feels big to you? You don’t need to know exactly how you would get there, but can you see a baby step in that direction? Can you do that and just see what happens?
And lastly, are you more of a leap-first person or a firm-footing person? What about your partner, your children? How can understanding that help you communicate with them about future decisions?
All right. Thank you so, so much for listening and we will see you next time. Bye! Have a great day!
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We’re back with the second episode in our new series on the podcast, in which we’re working our way through Pam’s book, The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide.
Today, we’re beginning our exploration of the deschooling phase of the journey with stage six: Challenging Our Beliefs About Learning. Deschooling has several aspects, and this is one of the big ones. We may carry many beliefs about the way that school is connected to learning and the way we expect children to learn.
In order to challenge those beliefs, we dug into five truths about learning: teaching is not a prerequisite for learning, curriculum is unnecessary for learning, children are always learning, learning is fun, and learning is not hard. Once we start to question our existing beliefs, many of these new truths come to the surface. And they really build on each other until we’re living in a whole new paradigm!
We loved diving into learning and we hope you find this episode helpful!
Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube.
THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODEPam’s Substack article, “But if they don’t go to school, how will they learn?”
Learn more about Pam’s book, The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide.
We invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network, a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents. It’s a non-judgmental space where you can steep in these unconventional ideas around parenting, relationships, and learning, and explore what they might look like day-to-day in your uniquely wonderful family. We offer a free month trial so you can see if it’s a good fit for you. Click here to join us.
Sign up to our mailing list on Substack to receive our email newsletters as well as new articles about learning, parenting, and so much more!
Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about exploring unschooling and navigating relationships.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPTPAM: Hello everyone, I am Pam Larrichia from Living Joyfully and today I’m joined by my co-hosts Anna Brown and Erika Ellis.
ANNA AND ERIKA: Hello!
PAM: So we are back with another episode in our Field Guide series. We’re working our way through my book, The Unschooling Journey, A Field Guide, which is framed around the hero’s journey and it’s a weaving together of myths, contemporary stories, and just tales from my own journey.
In our first episode, if you haven’t listened to that yet, you can go back, we dove into the first phase of the unschooling journey, which was Choosing Unschooling, in which we answered the call to unschooling. We found our guides, which in a fun twist are so often our children. We navigated past various threshold guardians as we crossed the threshold from the ordinary world into the world of unschooling and moved through our time in the belly of the whale where we came to embrace the curiosity of a beginner’s mind.
Now we are firmly in the deschooling phase of our journey, which encompasses seven stages and really does represent the bulk of our transformational work. Joseph Campbell calls this next stage the Road of Trials, which through the lens of unschooling, I have broken into two stages because I experienced them as quite distinct from each other. The first focuses on challenging our existing beliefs about learning and then the second one on those related to parenting.
In this episode, we’re going to talk about five truths about learning. And if you’re new to unschooling and this is your first time exploring these truths, you’re likely to be dancing with these ideas more intellectually to just understand what they mean and some of their further reaching implications because it’s just mind-blowing enough to hear these the first time and go what, that doesn’t match with what I’ve known so far. Anyway, if you’ve been unschooling for a while and feel like you already intellectually embraced these ideas, now’s the time to peel back some more layers to build more connections and context around them.
You’ll be strengthening your web of understanding with your own experiences, because you’ve been doing this for a while, so building your wisdom. And you are moving towards really believing and feeling these truths in your own bones, owning them for yourself.
All right, after all that preamble, the first truth we are going to explore is that teaching is not a prerequisite for learning. And right off, oh my gosh, there are just so many aspects to this one truth, isn’t there?
ANNA: It’s true. And I think it’s so interesting, because all of us can think of so many things we’ve learned without being specifically taught in that one way. And, oh my goodness, just look at babies learning to walk and talk without expert classroom instruction. And yet somehow schools have really sold us on this concept that to learn you need to be instructed by someone.
And not only that, but learning happens while sitting at a desk. And let’s throw in some power dynamic, loss of autonomy, a little peer pressure for good measure. But even without all of that soup, the idea that we need another person to teach us in a very specific way is just so limiting.
But what’s funny, personally, is that I didn’t want to homeschool in the beginning. I was very resistant because I didn’t want to be a teacher. So that statement right there shows you how deep I was in the idea that learning was about a teacher giving information to a student.
I think it was just so baked into my experience and what I’d been told for my whole life. And so even when in my own life, there were all these examples of me learning things all the time as an adult on my own in different ways. But somehow those didn’t count now. It was just so interesting to unpack that for myself.
And watching my kids was really what changed that, with a little point in the direction of observing from John Holt. I could see that I couldn’t even stop them from learning. They were just these little sponges, so interested in taking in everything, turning it around, trying to make sense of it, building context, building their own unique web of learning that we talk about so often. And then I started to kind of deconstruct the whole process.
So, even with the most amazing, well-meaning teachers, and there are so many of those beautiful people out there, if a student wasn’t interested, it wasn’t going to work. And I also read a lot about brains at that time and how we don’t learn well under stress. And that’s when I started to think, is school ever a helpful environment for learning? Does it ever make sense? And I’m just not sure that it does. And I think learning can happen there, but it’s kind of despite the terrible environment, not because of it, not as if it’s an optimal environment.
And like you said, it’s so individual. How does each person take in information? I prefer reading. I’m not auditory at all. David’s much more hands-on and experimental. So, long lectures just wouldn’t hold his attention. He needs to be moving at all times.
There are definitely times I turn to people who know more than me about a particular subject. I love that. It’s fun to see how they approach it, how they move through the challenges. But in the end, their approach may or may not work for me, but I can learn more about them, the subject, and ultimately myself as I’m able to move in and out of that type of learning environment.
I think the big thing here is just as we start to question and observe, ourselves, kids, our partners, see all the different ways that learning is happening every day around us. And it really just opens up such a new world.
ERIKA: I love that. This idea is so huge. Once I started thinking about it, it’s like, oh my gosh. And it was one of my biggest paradigm shifts at the beginning of my own unschooling journey was realizing this truth. And I had a lot of fun digging into the word “teaching,” which started to not even make any sense to me anymore.
Once I thought about it, it’s like somebody can say, “Well, I taught these kids how to do whatever.” And it’s like, but did you? You could say that you told them about it, but you really can’t say what happened inside of their brains. And so, I really liked questioning the word “teaching” overall and trying to move to the idea of just learning.
Learning does not require teaching. Learning happens inside of the learner. And having someone teach you could be a way of learning something, but those two are not necessarily connected. And just because a teacher says that they taught people does not mean that they learned it. I know that’s true from my own experience in school and my experience as a classroom teacher in high school. I’ve taught more than high school. I taught music classes and some little kid classes as well.
Everyone is so unique, every individual is so unique. And what I’ve seen is that process of teaching, the way that I would teach makes sense to my brain. It’s such a challenge to try to, what they would call in school, differentiate your instruction in order to meet everyone’s brains. But then the thing that’s missing from that is the interest.
And so, the way people actually learn is by being open to learning and about being ready to learn. And so the format is less important. And the teacher is just a possibility. It’s not the only thing. And it’s not the thing that makes learning happen.
I really think that having that experience as a teacher probably helped me get there a little bit faster on this part, because I’ve seen it. And so, I know that the classroom experience can be really frustrating for teachers and students. But I think you’re right, it’s not an optimal environment for learning in any way. Because we’re trying to get every single different person onto the same page in the same method. Trying to learn the same thing. And that just doesn’t really make sense if we think about how different everyone is. So yeah, I love this one.
PAM: Yeah, I mean, for me, too, Erika, this was one of my big first shift. Because as you were saying, Anna, I didn’t want to be a teacher. When the kids came home, it was, oh, so I’m supposed to teach them now. But to recognize that teaching didn’t mean learning was happening at all. Why don’t I use the lens of learning for a while? Because anytime I use the word teaching in a sentence, I could actually rephrase it to look at learning instead. And looking at it through that lens was just so helpful for me on my journey. And it’s something to dance with, which we talked about.
We’ve talked about the pendulum swing. We may think, oh, well, if teaching doesn’t make them learn, I guess I won’t teach. And then if we’ve started thinking of everything we share as teaching, I shouldn’t tell them things, right? So, you just let them figure it all out themselves.
And then you recognize, oh, no, I can be part of this picture, as you were talking about, and I like dipping in and out when somebody else has more knowledge that you’re interested in getting. And Erika, you pointed out how important the interest part is. Because that is when it all bubbles up, right?
When somebody is interested, maybe they’re asking questions, maybe they’re trying to do something. And we’re like, hey, I know a little something about this. This is how it works for me, do you want me to show you how it works for me? Keeping in mind that learning looks very different for each person.
But we can still share the stuff that we know, that we think, all those pieces. So, the dance of the relationship of learning, for me, it’s really, really fun. And I don’t need to frame that as teaching. It’s just our relationship and how we all enjoy learning new things that we’re interested in at the moment.
And so, Erika, something you said there at the end leads very much to the next truth that we wanted to talk about, about how people learn better when they’re interested and how teachers have this thing that they are supposed to be teaching. But so, anyway, second truth, curriculum is unnecessary for learning.
That is something that many of us grew up with. It was a foundational truth that we didn’t even visit. School curriculum is all about just creating and delivering this linear system all around teaching delivery. It’s about divvying up all the bits that they want to teach over the next however many years equally, so that, this is what we do in grade one math, grade two math, grade three, blah, blah.
And while most teachers understand that the most effective learning happens when the topic is relevant to the learner’s life, at least even better if they’re actually interested in it, that’s just not possible within this system, right? And most of the time, curricula is out of step with the learner.
So, we flipped the perspective between teaching and learning. Let’s consider learning without following a curriculum. What would that look like? And what would that look like through the lens of a particular child? And when you think about it, that unique set of knowledge and skills that will be valuable to that child will be different, definitely, maybe a little bit, maybe wildly, from a school’s generalized curriculum, right?
I think it’s so interesting to contemplate what our child chooses to learn just by following their curiosity and their interests as actually creating a beautifully individualized quote “curriculum” that really just fits them like a glove, because it meets them where they are in each moment.
ERIKA: I like how that turns it on its head. We could still use the word curriculum, if we want to. It’s just completely different than it was in the school context. And I really think that this truth was hard to see when I was in the middle of it, because they’re saying that school is about learning, but school is more like a game where you have a goal to get good grades.
And so, when you’re in that system, it doesn’t really matter what’s on the curriculum. That’s just the process of this particular game that we’re trying to play. So, it didn’t matter if something that I would want to learn was missing from that curriculum, because the point was to get good grades on this curriculum, so who cares? But in the real world, there’s just so much outside of school learning.
If you think about almost anyone’s work in the real world, there are just so many aspects to it that are specific to that field that would never have been covered in school. I learned that curriculum was really chosen because it’s easy to test, or it’s easy to assign grades to these particular areas. Math could be so interesting. But school math has to be easy to grade. And the testing is really easy, based on the things that they’ve chosen for the curriculum. And so, once I realized that, it’s just so much less important than it feels when you’re inside that system.
What people are supposed to learn in school, are not actually the most important bits of knowledge for living life. It’s much more random than that. And so, that’s why so many people get out of school and they’re like, why didn’t they teach us about these important things? Taxes, or how to buy a house, or fix my air conditioning system, or whatever, like things that would actually be useful, or even being in relationship, communication tools. Those would be useful things for life.
What I’ve seen since then, in our unschooling lives, is that kids following their interests really does include everything that they’ll need to know for the life that they want to lead, which makes perfect sense. If they’re living the life they want to lead, they’re going to be learning the things that make sense for that.
And so, any additional learning that looks more like school subjects could come up naturally, or maybe they’re just curious. What if they’re like, I’m curious about what school math is like. And so, it could be a side project if it’s interesting to them. But another great benefit of learning without a curriculum is like you were talking about the pacing and the order in which they learn is so individual and unique.
So maybe they would be considered very far ahead in one area or behind in another area, according to school, but in the real world, that there’s no ahead and behind, there’s not a fixed order to things in the same way. And so it’s like what you were saying, developing their unique web of learning based on what makes sense to them and developing their own interests and skills as they grow with their unique brains, which is just going to look so different for different people.
ANNA: Yeah. Oh my gosh. I love that piece of really deconstructing the whole of it. What is the goal? And what tools do they have?
Because they’re saying, we’re going to take the things out of math that are the easiest to measure. We’re not looking at what are the most important things of math to learn about, because they may not be easy to measure. And as soon as you start to unpack and deconstruct that a little bit, it’s like, wait a minute, why are we all in service of this system? What is that serving?
I think a big sticking point for me with school learning has always been that linear aspect of it. It’s interesting, because it stuck out to me at first when I was pregnant and going through natural childbirth classes, we talked a lot about how labor isn’t linear. Doctors and hospitals would have you believe that you’re dilating at this set rate per hour. And if you don’t, they want to intervene. Well it’s one centimeter per hour we need to be doing.
But that’s not how the body works. You know, it’s fits and starts, rests and surges. And so quickly, I could see how that made sense with learning, too. We aren’t going to learn one number a day. And then the next day, we’re going to learn one number. And let’s learn one color. No, no more colors today. Just this one color. And I saw my kids get interested in colors when they were so young, and wanting to know the color of everything, running around the house. What’s this? What’s that? Showing me all the pieces. That’s how they get excited about things and want to make sense in their brain.
I saw them dive so deeply as they were exploring any topic, because you could see them building this context, building their web, placing the new information into their existing web. It is anything but linear, and any interruptions or redirections just messed with their flow.
And that really reminded me of another thing I remember from my own time at school, was being in class in the middle of a large geometry proof, and the bell would ring, and on to a completely unrelated subject. Now we’re going to talk about history. And only to have to get back into that mindset for the proof later that night to do my homework, because it didn’t get finished during the class. And I hated it. I loved proofs so much, but I wanted to do them from start to finish without interruptions, because there’s so many pieces to it. But the constant interruption just killed my natural love of learning and love of math.
And I just started playing the game, like you’re talking about, Erika. I just started playing the game. Okay, this is what they’re wanting me to do, is just check these boxes. So, give them what they want for the test, and then promptly forget it, because it doesn’t mean anything. And what I learned was not the material that was being presented, but how to survive and master that system. And so, I just think that’s happening every day in schools all around us, and nobody’s talking about that piece.
And I will say that I definitely looked at all the different curricula when my girls were young. I was like, oh, there’s all these cool nature-based ones, because that’s what I love. But like we’ve talked about with any kind of classes before, I’d look at these things, and I’d feel like, oh my gosh, they’re so dumbed down, because even those more alternative curricula, we’re trying to make it linear. We’re going to learn about this bug today. Doesn’t matter if you’re seeing other bugs outside. We’re just going to do this one.
And after observing my kids learning when they were so young, I knew context was everything. And to divorce a subject from the context of it just made it so abstract. It lost the meaning and just became about memorization.
Okay, we’ll memorize what these bugs are. We won’t look at where they are, where we’re finding them. And it almost felt like it was tying their hand behind their back, because the world is so rich with things to learn, to see in context, to explore. And I came to believe that really no curricula could improve upon engaged parents exploring, supporting kids as their interests popped up in their kind of natural environment.
And I say that to say, it’s not just schools that can do this. We can do this in homeschooling as well, if we’re trying to follow this linear model and not really watching how humans learn and understanding the specific brains of the people in our family.
PAM: Yeah, that’s that whole curriculum piece, right? And another aspect that came up for me recently, in this area, someone commented on one of my Substack posts where I was talking about learning, and I’ll link to it in the show notes. But it was really interesting. They were very favorable. But the one thing they were concerned about was learning gaps. Gaps in their knowledge.
And it’s just so bright now, having thought through all this. But look at all the assumptions that are just built into that learning, the idea of a learning gap, or summer learning loss, all those ideas. Because, number one, you basically got a curriculum against which you are comparing what somebody should know at some age for you to determine that’s a gap or you didn’t learn that when you were supposed to. So you’ve tied in curriculum there.
And no matter how much people talk about lifelong learning, if you’ve still got a curriculum that something should be known by some particular age, lifelong learning doesn’t fit. It doesn’t matter when somebody learns something. When you have bring that lifelong learning lens to it, it’s like, when is it important? When are they interested in it? When will they actually use it? That’s a great time to learn it.
It’s not like you need to learn in the past, in case someday you need it in the future, which is a lot of what curriculum is based around. So, I just found that to be super interesting, that there are just so many pieces wrapped up that just assume curriculum is the way people learn. And that just shows up and says, but I’m worried about learning gaps, which you can totally understand, but my goodness.
ERIKA: I totally understand it. But it’s so interesting, because if you think about something, like if you were to point out to that adult about their learning gaps, something that they don’t know about, it’s like, oh, but that isn’t important. So, the school curriculum devalues everything outside of it. And so, learning gaps can only happen with school learning. You wouldn’t say, I have a learning gap about auto mechanics or something. I’m not expected to know that. And so, I think that’s super interesting and really something for us to turn around in our minds so that we value all of the different things that people might want to learn about and not just this one set.
ANNA: Right, because I guarantee any of those kids that we’re talking about having a learning gap, they know things off the charts that other people, adults included, don’t know, because they followed a passion or interest. We see that all the time. And like you said, you wouldn’t say I have a learning gap because I don’t know about chainsaws like my husband does, but that serves him. And so, yeah, I think that’s one of those thoughts like my thought about how I don’t want to be a teacher. It’s that it’s so baked in. It’s so baked in that we don’t even see it.
PAM:
Yeah, yeah. And that’s what I was excited to point out. It’s not that when that thing was being taught that we were just sitting in a corner, not doing anything, we were just learning so many other things. And I think this conversation also comes up some with some unschooling families when their kids decide to try school or they want to go check it out. And then all of a sudden, they’re measuring their knowledge versus the knowledge they think the child should have in whatever grade, etc. And, oh, we need to catch up.
But instead of the phrasing “catch up” and “behind,” bring the lens of they’ve been learning all sorts of other things. Yeah, maybe not what matches specifically that curriculum, but they’ve been learning all sorts of other things. And they don’t lose those if they decide to go check out school. That is there, as you were talking about before, Anna, how rich life is, the context, all the things we know that are related to who we are as a human being and the things that we’re interested in.
And if school becomes something we’re interested in, it’s like, oh, I’m not behind, but I’m bringing my full self. And then I can learn those other things, rather than getting all stressed, like, oh, my gosh, did we fail because they don’t know?
ANNA: Okay, one quick thing before we move on, because I think it’s where we have that hierarchy, where we’re thinking school is somehow this important monolith, whatever we want to call it. And really, that’s why this deconstruction process is so important to understand school for what it is. It serves a particular purpose, and it is what it is.
But if you were to take your child and put them into an auto mechanic shop, you wouldn’t expect them to know all the things in the auto mechanic shop. You would know they need to figure those things out and learn them. And someone might tell them about stuff, and they might read a book, and they might try different things.
But why can’t we have that same environment with school to go, okay, yeah, they haven’t learned about how they annotate things and do this particular thing a certain way, so then they’ll learn about it, versus there’s something inherently wrong that they don’t know about it. Because it’s its own system, no different than any of these other systems. It’s not better or worse, but that takes the deconstruction to understand what’s behind it and how we got here.
PAM: Oh, that’s beautiful, beautiful. Okay, yes, we should move on. The third truth is that children are always learning, because I mean, they really, really are. Humans are, right? But when you look at kids, you can see it in action, whether or not you can name it, whether or not they can name it, they are learning.
Even when they’re cocooning, even when they’re watching a favorite show on repeat, they are having an experience. And the idea that children are always learning implies that learning doesn’t just happen at school, it doesn’t just happen with the teacher.
So, let me go back another layer, and that nudges us to consider the idea that all learning is valuable, just like we were saying, like auto mechanics to somebody who needs that information and skill is just about as valuable to stuff that would appear in a regular school curriculum.
Learning about themselves, learning about being in relationships with others, as you were talking about earlier, Erika, learning what they like and what they don’t like, what they’re curious about, what seems uninteresting, and how that changes over time. That is just all such valuable learning. Facts and skills are just other bits that are on that buffet table of learning, which each person can individually select at any particular time, what they’re interested in. And without the curriculum, and with this always learning lens, that brings us right back to that rich context that you were talking about, Anna, because if we’re following a curriculum, we’re really just picking out those bits.
But when we’re like, I’m interested in this thing, all the things that are connected or that we notice come with that, when we’re not just focused on the quote “important little bits.”
ANNA: And I think we’re at such an interesting time in human history, too, where we have access to everything, to people, to resources, to information that is very unique to our time, if we look back over the long scale. But no matter what, it’s really almost impossible to stop a human from learning. Even if you had no internet, you’re still going to be learning what’s important to you, what’s right in front of you. Every minute, we are taking in information, learning about ourselves, those around us, the environment.
Learning is so much broader than the idea of subjects at school. And as I said earlier, divorcing concepts from context is really counter to actually learning about the concepts. And I feel that way about math, English, history, music, all of it. It’s that interconnectedness. It’s that understanding why we need it, why it’s important, how it serves us in the life that we want to live. That’s what gives it meaning and helps it stick.
I loved watching my oldest as a toddler when she was putting things into context. The lion we saw in a book, then she saw it on a show, then she saw it at the zoo. And you could just see her building this web of understanding about it. And it’s so amazing to watch.
I think that’s the special thing about kids is that they have so much context to build. So it’s happening very quickly. I think we’re all doing it as adults too, but we’ve been working on that web a little bit longer. So, I think it’s so much easier to see in that young child.
And I think just that important piece of not ranking learning. Learning numbers is no more valuable than learning to draw or learning that you don’t like bright lights or learning how to be in relationship. It all has value.
And I guess if there would be a ranking, it would be more about what helps you the most in your unique life. That’s really what we’ve been talking about. What helps you explore your interests, achieve your goals, be the person that you want to be. That’s a very different metric than what school values. And I think it’s why people get disenfranchised because they think I’m supposed to be learning this. They’re telling me this is important, but it’s not helping me towards my goal of being an artist or a musician or even a mathematician because it’s very different than what they’re doing in school. And so, I think that’s where people get where it feels bad and they start to think “I can’t learn” and all of those pieces. Okay, I’m going to stop.
ERIKA: I remember getting those questions about, why do we need to learn this school? And I think most of the time I was pretty honest about, it’s on the curriculum and it’s going to be on a test. And so, that’s why we’re learning it. It’s interesting to some people and not to everyone.
And I really think, people intuitively know that children are learning, especially when they’re babies and toddlers, like, as you were describing, you can just see it happening. But then we might forget if we think that learning happens in school. And so, we might forget that they were capable of that and they are still capable of that. And we all are.
So if we think big kid learning needs to look like school, adult learning has to look like college courses, then you may not notice what’s actually happening and that learning is happening all the time.
But as we were talking about earlier, what they learn might be outside of that limited range of what is like observable learning in school. And what’s really interesting for me to think back on is what I learned in school was also mostly outside of the range of what was tested. The memories I have of school and what I learned there were about people, how to be safe, like what the signs are of dysregulation, is what I would call it now.
But that kind of hypervigilance, watching how people are behaving, how the teachers are behaving, how we’re being treated, and all of that kind of stuff. That is much more my memory of school than any particular little curriculum item that I would have learned and then forgotten.
And so, how kids learn outside of school might not look anything like how it was taught in school, or how you remember learning it and everyone’s brains are different.
I definitely have seen unschooling parents say they’re just not learning anything or things like that. And it’s just like, maybe let’s look at it differently, because that’s not possible. And so, the way that a unique child puts together their own web of learning, I love that image for it too. It makes so much sense that each person’s construction of their web is unique to them.
And I’ve heard my kids come back about things and be like, oh, that’s what that meant when I saw that on that show one time. They will literally make connections, and I can see it happen, but it may not look anything like something that I would have thought they were supposed to have learned.
But it’s just natural human learning. And there are so many internal things that people are learning. I think even in my experience in school, or other kids’ experience in school, there are so many internal things they’re learning about themselves, they’re learning about relationships and human nature, it might look like they’re learning nothing. But I trust that they’re getting what they need out of those moments and putting together their own web.
PAM: Right? That is so often conventionally devalued, because in school, that’s not measured. You want to measure just on those little bits that you know now. And then when we move on, the next time you kind of circle back, it’s just not valued. When you learn something and connect it, like you were saying earlier, Anna, it can’t really be measured. So, we can’t give it a grade. So, we just don’t consider it at all. It’s not part of school, which is how we come to see learning.
Oh, my gosh! And I think that richness is just what is so missed, that context, that building that web of deeper understanding, that’s just so valuable. Okay, I’ll be quick.
The fourth truth to explore. I love this one, too. And that is that learning is fun. Ooh, yes. Let’s try that one on for a bit. I think an interesting aspect of this idea. It’s something that you will, when you start learning about unschooling, you will come across it pretty quickly. The idea that our focus isn’t on learning a particular skill. We talk about following their interests and their passions instead of following a curriculum.
So, from there, they pick up the skills that we’ve talked about that are helpful along the way, but they do it on their own timetable versus the curriculum’s timetable. I like to use reading as a classic example, because that’s something that people are concerned that their kids learn quickly. And that’s totally understandable, because at school, learning to read is definitely a goal. One that they hold out as key for a child to be able to learn. And again, that makes sense, because at school, not being able to read can definitely interfere with learning, because so much of the communication at school is written. It’s a characteristic of that system. Here’s your worksheets, write this test. It’s all about words and reading.
But when the goal is pursuing their interests and passions, they have the time and space to find all sorts of ways to engage with the thing that they’re interested in. And we are there to read things for them whenever they like, if that’s how they want to bring in some information.
And they also have the time and space to explore just that complex puzzle of reading in their own way, and at their own pace when their unique brain is ready for it. So not reading is in no way a handicap to learning when we’re unschooling. Another layer around the idea that learning is fun.
It reminds us that people learn in different ways, as we’ve been talking about this whole time. Real learning is just so much more interactive and fluid than a classroom can accommodate. You really just have this one teaching style learning with reading, writing, communication, that’s really what you’ve got for learning there.
Okay, then there’s yet another layer, because we like peeling back layers, and seeing how when kids are following their curiosity and pursuing their interests and goals, so often this learning happens almost incidentally, like they’re just having fun. They’re just like doing the thing they wanted to do. And it doesn’t even need to be labeled as learning.
Once we get to that layer, at first we want to see, we want to expand our understanding of what learning is by basically labeling everything they do as learning. And then it’s like, when everything is a thing, then we don’t even need to label it. But because when they’re just engaging and doing the thing, it just now makes sense to them, and they remember it, like we were talking about earlier, because they chose to engage with it, it means something to them, and they’re going to be using it because it’s something they’re interested in.
So even if something gets challenging or frustrating for a little while, so often they choose to keep going, because it’s helping them accomplish something that they want to do. And again, they learn along the way, they learn how to deal with frustration, feelings, learn how to move through those, maybe learn how to take a break. They learn how to choose, is this worth continuing pushing through or do I want to give it a break now? Do I never want to see it again? And then they learn six months later, it’s not quite as hard as it was when they first burst out with it. But yeah, learning can be so much fun.
ERIKA: Yes! And I feel like when they do hard things because it’s important to them instead of because someone’s telling them to, all of those things, it’s so curious to think about. And I really think the fact that in our schools, at least in my country right now, they’ve pushed the curriculum lower and lower into the younger ages, because it’s like, oh, well, if we want them to be at this level at this age, then they should be preparing for that earlier.
And so, I mean, it’s gotten to the point where there is three-year-old curriculum that’s preparing them for four-year-old. All of this exists now. And so, this is not developmentally aligned. It doesn’t actually make any sense. And it backfires, because then kids think that they are stupid, or they think, I’m not good at this, or whatever internal messages they develop. But it’s really because we’re putting things on them in schools that their brains are not ready for, literally not ready for it.
And so, there are kids who can thrive in that environment. But it’s pretty unusual. And so, following what’s most interesting to them, it’s like a little secret. I feel like it’s just the best way for them to learn everything.
And I love that you pulled reading out, because it’s a tool. Reading is not an end result. And in school, it feels like reading is this end result. And we get so focused on it. Can they read? Can they read? It’s like, okay, but reading is a tool that humans use. Writing and reading are to help us share information with each other.
This is a way that we can learn about things or research things or whatever. And so, reading is part of life, because it’s helpful to us. It’s not important as a skill on its own. Treating it like that, like a tool that is helpful, makes so much more sense.
What I saw with my kids is they were curious about reading. They wanted to be able to do it because it would help them. It helps them in their games. It helps them communicate with others and all of this. And so, it really was a journey that they owned for themselves and it didn’t feel like me pushing them to learn it younger than they were ready to learn it. It felt like their curiosity was the driving force and then they picked it up as they needed in a way that made sense for their own brains.
And so, I think kids just naturally learn about what’s fun and interesting to them. And when they’re young, it looks like playing and when they’re older, maybe it still looks like playing, or maybe it starts to look like something different and unique to them. It could be projects or processing ideas with us or interacting with friends. Maybe they want to sign up for a certain class. Maybe they love collecting certain things or whatever it is. It’s so unique to each individual person. I think the idea that learning isn’t fun that school gives us is so terrible and damaging to people.
ANNA: Oh, it really is. Oh, and I love that you mentioned that reading is a tool, a tool among many other tools to learn and take in information. And I just love this whole idea that learning is fun.
And I think it’s because I love learning all the things, that it is fun! And I love your point, Pam, about how unschooling, the learning almost appears incidental, but it’s so purposeful in the way that it’s helping the learner move towards something that’s important to them, whether that’s a goal, an understanding, whatever it might be.
And I think because it can appear incidental, we brush it aside or think it’s not as important, or that it’s not this drudgery. And with any passion, the learning isn’t linear or confined to a subject. With a passion for Minecraft, you’re learning about building, geometry, animals, strategy, gems, tools, so many things. A passion for horses, the same. It incorporates all the school subjects, but then so much more, the connection, the nuances, all the pieces.
And so, observation is really our friend here. Watch and walk alongside your kids and be amazed, because I was constantly amazed. And I think, Erika, you touched on this, unfortunately, one of the side effects of a poor school experience is a belief that learning has to be hard and it has to be drudgery to mean anything. But that’s not true. Learning is magic. It’s amazing.
And again, there’s a deep internal drive that we have as humans to learn and understand the things around us. And as you both mentioned, it may not look like learning if we’re so narrowly defining learning, if we’re holding onto this school book drudgery as our definition of learning. But if you broaden your definition, you will see it’s rich and rewarding and absolutely equipping them to live a life that’s meaningful to them.
PAM: Yeah. And you started talking about it and that’s the next truth that we’re going to explore, because they’re very related. So, that’s that learning is not hard. Through the lens of unschooling, that’s our next truth, that learning is not hard.
And I found it distinct, because I could think learning is fun and hard. Like I want to enjoy learning, but it’s something hard that I do. So, I think that that’s why for me, I separated these out as well. And when you think about showing up at school, and this ties into what you were saying earlier, Erika, about the curriculum getting pushed down and down earlier and earlier, when kids are presented with this stuff, it really is so easy just to pick up the message that learning is hard.
Because there are so many reasons in the classroom following this curriculum that it is hard for them. It’s totally true. Trying to learn something that you’re not interested in can definitely be hard. Trying to learn something that your brain is not ready to process and connect and bring together can definitely be hard. If it’s just something that’s not part of their day-to-day lives, so maybe they’re not super interested in it, but also they won’t be using it because it’s not something they need to do, then that is hard to learn because it often just doesn’t make sense.
It’s just this little floating point, which earlier you mentioned, Anna, that’s when we end up stopping trying to understand what we would call learning and just memorize that factoid, because it has no context in our lives or in our interests. So, I just have to memorize this thing to perform on the test and to play that game.
So, for lots of brains, learning in school and following curriculum is hard. And then just put yourself in there. If you’re trying to be interested in the thing, questions are so discouraged. And not because the teacher’s just like, I don’t want to, but they don’t have time. If it’s not on the curriculum, we don’t have time to spend 20 minutes discussing it, because it won’t be on the test. How many people ended up asking that question eventually? It’s like, is this going to be on the test? And if not, you could just forget about it. It’s like, okay, I don’t even have to try memorizing or understanding it, because it’s not going to be on the test.
When you imagine kids in school, their days really are just filled with that push and pull of what is it that I need to know? How do I memorize it? And in all that, because of all the testing and the grading, we become so afraid of being wrong and we can’t ask questions. So, we stop being curious about stuff. We have to answer questions on the test in exactly the same way that we were told. So, we don’t even try to think of other ways that might connect for us better or understand better. We have to say it the way it’s supposed to be said. So, our creativity fades. I just feel it’s become so ingrained in that school experience that we now think that is the human experience that learning is hard. Full stop. That’s just it. Learning for anybody is hard.
But what so many unschooling parents have seen over these decades, as we’ve talked to more and more unschooling parents, what we’ve seen with our children is it’s the environment that makes a fundamental difference in how learning feels. When you’re doing the things that are interesting to you or that you want to learn, you’re following your curiosity, you’re following your needs, your own goals, oh my gosh, learning can be fun.
And the incidental piece is like, it’s not hard because I’m meeting it where I am. And I’m meeting it right at the place where I can learn. If I do jump too far ahead, it’s like, this makes no sense. I’m going to find information or a person or whatever that’s going to meet me where I am. So, now I can just soak it up like that sponge. We can learn like little kids do no matter our age. When you think of challenging or frustrating moments in it, it doesn’t feel like the learning piece is hard. It’s just like, ooh, I’m trying to figure out this piece and I want to play around with it. I want to figure it out. It’s much less about defining all learning as hard, because this particular piece is challenging or frustrating for me in this moment. It’s just so interesting.
ANNA: It’s true. And so this is going to sound a little bit cynical, but I think it’s really one of the ways that the powers that be keep us in line. Learning’s hard. You can’t do it on your own. You need these experts in this building or you’re not going to be successful. You’re not going to get a job. You won’t amount to anything.
Because as soon as you realize learning isn’t hard when it’s in service of an interest and that you don’t need that expert and that building, the whole system starts to crumble. But truly what you said is so important to tease apart. Memorizing facts devoid of context is hard, especially for some brains. For other brains, memorization comes really easily and I think those people do well in school. And so, like most things, there is a grain of truth to the idea that learning is hard. It can be, but it doesn’t have to be.
And for me, I think watching the babies and toddlers learning so much in such a short amount of time just really blew the lid off the idea that we can’t learn without proper instruction. But even then, they pick out specific things. Well, then reading’s going to be hard or math is going to be hard.
But again, it’s made harder by that environment and by that environment not taking into account different brains and different timelines. And if something does seem hard, is it still hard if we let go of the agenda around it, the timeline around it, the context? Is it a context issue that’s making it feel hard? Can we examine something that we’re saying feels hard and just understand it a little bit more?
A few months ago, a Network member talked about how people will say learning gets harder as you get older. It’s another truism, learning gets harder as you get older. When really, it’s that being in that school environment gets harder because as adults, we have much more context for living alongside learning. So, the artificial environment and arbitrary hoops make much less sense and are much less tolerable than when we were kids and didn’t know there was a choice.
And I think that there are actually some kids that intuitively know there’s a different way and they end up not doing well in school, because they just keep bucking, like, I’m going find my way out of this tiny little narrow place that you’re putting me in, because I know there’s another world out there. And for a lot of us, we don’t really discover that until we’re adults and realize we just performed for that system for many, many years. And now there’s this whole other world out here.
ERIKA: My kids didn’t go to school and I didn’t question it when I was in school. And so, this was a lot of new information for me and super interesting. But what I observed with my kids was that they just resist anything that doesn’t interest them, period.
And that’s not every personality. My husband, Josh, and I are really curious and interested in almost anything, where my kids are more interested in very specific things. And so, I can be like, isn’t this cool? And they’re just like, no, like, why would I care about that? So, it’s so unique.
And then imagine in school where they’re not even saying, isn’t this cool? Most of the time, they’re just saying, you have to learn this. It’s important to learn it. Of course, it’s going to be hard. It’s going to be hard to learn something if your brain either isn’t ready for or if it holds no interest at all. It just is so logical now for me to think about that.
But when I was in it, I didn’t know what was the problem with these other kids, that they weren’t actively participating or they weren’t trying hard or to do better. So looking back on it, I’m like, okay, that doesn’t make any sense though. The reason why I’m doing well in this system is because I’m good at memorizing or because I’m able to put my internal feelings and thoughts to the side in service of, this is what they said to do. I want to get this good score, whatever.
And so, looking back when I was first coming to unschooling, I felt a little bit jealous of the people who had realized about school when they were actually in school and were a little bit more rebellious, because I just totally got sucked into the game. I didn’t even see it. I did start to see it when I was a teacher in school.
But the more I think about this story that most people tell about learning being hard and learning being no fun, the more upset I get about this. Because it really doesn’t have to be that way. And I think it affects people for the rest of their lives, either thinking that they can’t learn or that they hate certain topics. And I think this is also the core of the “adults versus kids” conflicts that people have in their lives.
Because if the adults are saying, this is the most important thing, and the kids are saying, this is hard and I hate it, that clash is so terrible. And so, I think some kids can push themselves through it, but I don’t think that it’s natural and it doesn’t really make any sense because, like you were saying about the memorization aspect of it, the things that I remember from school are few and far between.
It’s not like that memorization type of learning to put it down on a test. It’s not learning that lasts or that makes any sense as something we take with us through our lives as important information. And so, yeah, this one upsets me.
PAM: I know, it’s so true. That is what is so fascinating about this stage of the journey, I think. Okay, so it’s been a long time. I do want to thank everyone for joining us. And we do really hope that you enjoy diving into this stage of the de-schooling phase as we challenge some of our conventional beliefs about learning.
I really think, as you were saying, it fundamentally sets us up so negatively, those conventional beliefs of how you have to be taught by a teacher, you have to follow a curriculum, learning is hard, learning is not fun, all of those pieces, we bring all that weight with us into adulthood. And we carry the message that we can’t learn. But then all the fun stuff that we’re doing and the deep dives into our own passions and interests, we don’t call them learning because they weren’t on a school curriculum, right?
ANNA: We devalue it.
PAM: We still carry the message, I can’t learn. Oh sure, I love this and I could do this for hours, but that doesn’t count, right? I mean, it’s just so deep, the messages that we carry.
We do invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network to continue these kinds of conversations. It is a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents, absolutely. And a nonjudgmental space where you can steep in these unconventional unschooling ideas and just explore what they might look like in the day-to-day of your unique and wonderful family of individuals.
No matter where you are on the journey, just learning about it, been doing it for years, there are always layers to peel back around as things come up at different ages and stages. And we are very excited to welcome you. To learn more, just follow the link in the show notes or go to livingjoyfully.ca and just choose Network in the menu. And thank you so much, Anna and Erika!
We wish everyone a lovely, lovely day.
ERIKA: Bye!
ANNA: Bye, take care.
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We’re back with another On the Journey episode! We had a rich conversation with Living Joyfully Network member Lucia Silva. Lucia was previously on the podcast in episode 251, Unschooling as a Lifestyle. She is an unschooling mom of two and she came back to share some updates about her unschooling journey.
We talked about trusting our children’s learning journeys, Lucia’s inner growth and mindset shifts, as well as her experience in the Living Joyfully Network and how the community has supported her over the years.
It was a really beautiful discussion and we hope you find it helpful!
Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube.
THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODEEU251: Unschooling as a Lifestyle with Lucia Silva
We invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network, a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents. It’s a non-judgmental space where you can steep in these unconventional ideas around parenting, relationships, and learning, and explore what they might look like day-to-day in your uniquely wonderful family. We offer a free month trial so you can see if it’s a good fit for you. Click here to join us.
Sign up to our mailing list on Substack to receive our email newsletters as well as new articles about learning, parenting, and so much more!
Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about exploring unschooling and navigating relationships.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPTERIKA: Hello, everyone. I’m Erika Ellis from Living Joyfully, and I’m joined by my co-hosts, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia, as well as our guest today, Lucia Silva. Hello to you all!
PAM, ANNA, AND LUCIA: Hello!
ERIKA: Before we begin our conversation with Lucia, I wanted to invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network, which has really been life changing for me in so many ways. On the Network, we have such great discussions about so many topics. Our community has such a wide variety of experiences, and everyone’s really interested in learning and growing and being intentional with their families. It’s really unlike any other online community I’ve found.
Being part of the Network offers powerful support, especially during those moments when fears pop up or if you’re new to unschooling and just need a place where people understand what you’re going through. If you’d like to learn more about the Network and check it out for yourself, you can visit livingjoyfully.ca and click on Network at the top of the page. And we’ll also leave a link for that in the show notes. We would love to meet you.
So I’m very excited that we get to talk to Lucia today. I met Lucia on the Living Joyfully Network and have just loved getting to know her over the years. And she was also on the podcast back in episode 251 and shared her journey to unschooling in that episode.
I encourage everyone to check that out as well. And we’re excited to dive in for an update five and a half years later, which is wild. So Lucia, we would love to hear what everyone is interested in right now.
LUCIA: Five and a half years later sounds like, in the scope of kid time, it’s so long. It’s so long. And then thinking, how long have you been unschooling? Five and a half years still seems really new.
So, it’s interesting to think about those elastic times. And it was fun to see how some things are just so similar. I’m sure you guys see that with your kids. But, wow, I can connect where they’re into the exact same thing.
So there’s four of us. It’s me and my husband, Micah, and my two kids. They’re older now. To respect their privacy, I’m not going to be using their names. And I’ll just refer to them with neutral pronouns. They said I could talk about them in general.
My oldest child is still really into ballet. And that’s their primary passion. And that has remained strong, grown, changed a little bit. It’s not what they want to do professionally, but it is just a primary part of their lives. They’re also still really into reading and drawing and making.
They have a great friend group. And they do lots of fun stuff. I just dropped them off at the botanical gardens to hang out with friends this morning. And let’s see, there was one other thing I wanted to mention. I lost my train of thought.
My younger child, back when I originally did the podcast, they were really into building and constructing items out of stuff. And I had not really forgotten, even though we still have a lot of that preserved in the garage. But they’re really into building tabletop games, mostly card games. They’re constantly inventing new games.
We’ve brought a lot of them to the table, done a lot of design. We’ve taken them to little fairs and sold lots of them. And we have game tournaments.
They’re kind of based around the Wings of Fire lore, because that’s what their friends were into when they started it. It’s turned into this thing where they have this whole group of friends that are waiting for the next booster pack to come out. But it’s kind of amazing to see connections, from that fascination with construction, like moving pieces, how they fit together.
And now it’s, Mom, I have a new game. And it’s this whole fully formed game mechanics and point values. Now it’s branching out to some things that aren’t just trading card games. They’re thinking about what would be a good family game? But mostly card games. So they’re really into that. They’ve gotten really into fencing and chess, which I think are both similar sort of mental games.
And they love talking with Micah about probability problems and stuff like that. They’re also really into philosophy and philosophical debate, or debating anything. So that’s that.
And I think when we last spoke, Micah, my husband, was a professor at UGA, and he’s now moved into tech. And along that whole journey, so much of what we’ve gone through in our unschooling journey, I’m putting that in air quotes, because it just sort of becomes your entire sort of life philosophy, unschooling. But that has really been so meaningful for him on his journey of just learning the way his mind works, what his interests are, stuff like that. So he’s still in the research, data field, has gotten really into improv and musical improv with a little group here, and plays music all the time.
And I am, I think, still doing a lot of the same things. I like to sew, and I’m reading, and I love following little rabbit trails and researching anything and dabbling about here and there.
ANNA: So fun. All the things, but how they all weave together, right? You can just picture the household and the weaving together of all the things.
ERIKA: I love connecting it back to the old conversation and seeing how that tracks, because we always talk about that, looking back and seeing how those threads connect together. And it just also makes me think, oh my gosh, kids are all so different, the things that they love and are interested in. You can’t predict it. And it’s just so interesting.
PAM: Yeah, I loved hearing the piece of looking back and now seeing how that is weaving into the things they’re interested in right now, because they can seem very different. Yet, when you look back, you can see the thread that underlies the various things together over time. And that is so interesting, just as a piece of knowledge, just a little bit more understanding about who they are, right? I think that is super cool. Did you want to say something?
LUCIA: Oh, just as you were saying that I realized that along the way, I feel like that’s given me, it’s a really important reflection to have when they get interested in something that maybe I’m unsure about, like video games, for example, and thinking, what is happening with all this time? And it’s so easy to see what’s underneath for them. How does this work? How do the team dynamics work? How do I analyze these moves? It doesn’t mean that if you’re not doing that, it’s not important, but there’s always something going on underneath an interest unless they’re not being attended to, right? But if it’s intentional, just like we’re intentional.
And seeing that there is that through line and that intention under it. Oh, and then sorry, one other thing about my oldest kiddo, who’s really into working with kids these days. They’re interning at a Waldorf school and they’ve been babysitting a lot too, which is a job, and they assist in the little kids’ classes at our co-op. There’s something underneath it that’s more like a passion rather than just like, oh, I go babysitting. Looking at the intention they bring to that and how respectful they are of the children, their privacy, what they’re going through and what reverence they have for that job.
I mean, there’s all kinds of ways to have a job, but also to look at that as we are spending a lot of time doing that because I’m seeing that it is something that is really important to them to do rather than, oh, they’re working or they’re working without getting paid.
PAM: All the different stories we can tell ourselves, right? But when we take that moment to actually dive a little bit deeper, so often we can see those threads. We can see the intentionality rather than the surface story that just, oh, I’m taking them to their job. They’re doing this thing. I don’t quite know why they’re not getting paid. Whatever lenses that kind of automatically bubble up, if we take a minute to just dig a little bit deeper and see what else comes up alongside it, it is really exciting.
And it helps, as I think back, just helps with the mechanics too. Like I don’t mind driving them to X, Y, Z because I know the impact and what they’re getting out of it. I’m not just a chauffeur or something like that.
If I take that as the superficial story of what’s happening, but no, I’m fundamentally supporting their pursuit of something that they are intentionally interested in. Who knows where it will go? We’ve talked a lot about how you really can’t predict it because we can guess but it’s really only looking back where we can see those threads and the connections and go, oh my gosh, I am so glad that I supported and helped with that along the way.
ANNA: I just want to say I feel like this is a core piece of unschooling for me, this valuing the experience and the exploration and facilitating that. But it’s hard because it doesn’t necessarily have a product at the end, or it doesn’t necessarily even have a photo op or whatever the thing might be that grounds it in our culture. But gosh, it’s such a big part of it.
And when you can take this time to look back, you do see those threads and you do see that growth. And again, it may be that they end up doing something with children, but maybe they’re just building a wealth of information and connection and relationship pieces that’ll be used in some other way. So yeah, just love that.
ERIKA: It’s trusting, trusting that they know, right? They know the thing that’s interesting now, and that’s going to lead to something. And I feel like it can be hard because we are always seeing through our own lenses. That’s the part that can be challenging about that for me. I think, but it doesn’t make sense. Or why would you want to spend your time doing that?
Or little judgmental feelings can come up just based on what it would be for me, like that interest doesn’t make sense to me. I think if we can drop that part, drop the judgment and just trust that they know themselves and this is going to lead to whatever it needs to lead to for them. I really love them.
LUCIA: And it is so hard for people, they really want to attach it to something. Are they going to be a professional dancer? Are they going to go into child development? I’m like, I don’t know.
Are you going to become a historian because you learned about the battle of the bulge. I get it. I think they want to know that everything’s okay. I understand it, but it’s important, or it’s been important for me to make my little energetic bubble and go like, yeah, is that cool?
No, they don’t want to be a professional dancer because of XYZ or whatever. Then their face falls, oh, but they dance for 12 hours a week. Yes, that’s pretty awesome. That’s still great. It’s very, it’s just interesting when you get so steeped in this, to have to pull yourself out and see through those eyes, right? Remembering, that’s where they are. And I get it. And I’m going to figure out how to talk to you about this in a way that doesn’t make you so worried.
PAM: Yes, I would want them to not be worried. Although I have no control over that. I got those questions so many times, especially as your kids get older, right?
People start, well, then what are they going to be? Et cetera. And I got to a point where I just loved answering those with, “I don’t know, maybe.” They look at you like, don’t you know your child?
LUCIA: Don’t you care? Well, especially as they get older, right? When they’re seven, that’s fine for everybody. When they’re 15 going on 16 and everybody’s talking about college and what are you going to do?
And they look at you like, do you not care? Are you going to abandon them? And they’re starting to feel that, not pressure to do, but pressure to answer. Luckily we don’t get that from our family.
So, I’d like to care a little bit less, but we’ll encounter adults who are like, what are you going to major in? Oh, are you going to this? Are you going to that? What do I say? It’s like, well, here are the options. We can prepare a little, you can just be out there with it.
ERIKA: It depends on how humorous you want to be. You have lots of options.
PAM: Oh my goodness. So I wanted to pull back something that you mentioned a little bit earlier and we’ll tie it in with the first interview we did. Episode 251. I do recommend everyone go back there and check out because you talked a lot about your journey to unschooling there. The theme and the title of the episode was unschooling as a lifestyle.
And like you said earlier, it just becomes the way you live. So I was curious as you look back, how has your journey evolved so far? Because we know it will continue. And what things have helped you along the way?
LUCIA: Well, I did read the transcript of that episode again. I had a vague idea. And it was so interesting to me to see both how I was at the beginning and how I was already like two feet in, here’s what we’re doing.
And a lot of the sort of philosophy for lack of a better word, or like the ideas now are just, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And I know then that my yes was a different kind of yes. It just had a different feel and I was really eager and trying hard. And now a lot of those things just feel like, Oh wow. I can’t believe I was worried about that. That was my primary focus. I totally remember feeling that way. And I was thinking of Pam’s unschooling journey. Also, that was the first book that I read. That’s what it’s called, right? The Unschooling Journey.
PAM: Yes.
LUCIA: And thinking about the Network as this constant companion and knowing that the unschooling journey is based around this idea of the hero’s journey as the journey into and through unschooling. And I’m thinking about how many times we do that journey in this spiral, right? This big sort of macro journey of we won’t do that and we won’t do this and let go of that.
And we’re okay with this and then you go the next layer in and in and in, and now we’re sort of on this really micro journey where sort of everything spins around more quickly. I enter an unfamiliar situation or way of thinking, or how do I feel about this that my kid wants to do?
How do I feel about this and do a little whole circle of a journey with that. And I realized that for me, and I think for a lot of us who are part of the Network, that it’s a mix of a companion, a champion, an oracle, like all of the things that those mystical mythical heroes come upon that reveal some little truth, here’s a little encouragement, here’s your magic potion to keep you going.
But, for me, symbolically, there is no way, I guess I won’t say there’s no way I could have done it without the Network. But I know that my life is just totally different because of it. I know that every relationship I have is totally different because of it. I know that our family is totally different because of it.
And it’s funny, because I never get to talk about the Network. I think all the people outside my life know that I’m part of this unschooling network. They know it’s this online thing, and I have to go to a Zoom all the time. People will ask, why do you have all these Zoom meetings? Do you have a job? I’m like, no, no, I have, it’s a very important meeting I have to go to.
Because there are all these layers to it. When we started, I approached it the same way I approached listening to the podcast as like, I was in mentorship mode. And I still am in a different way. I remember, every week, as soon as the talk came out, I would listen to it. And then Micah and I would sit together on the couch at night, and I’d either play certain parts, we’d listen to the whole thing. We were steeping in this lecture series, and then we’d talk about it.
And I’d make notes and have these things I wanted to keep top of mind that week. And I could feel that transformation of ideas come loose in me and be like, okay, these are ideas I want to steep in. But then, I think I was maybe a little hesitant sometimes to post in the network, but I realized so quickly how much I learned from reading other people sharing it, everybody commenting and realizing this is unlike any other place that I’ve been.
And in the same way that unschooling is unlike any other place that I’ve been. If you think of this as the ultimate community for that based on intentionality, and not based on this set of rules and ideals. Which is so funny that a lot of the homeschooling and unschooling communities online turn into exactly that. Because I think people look for advice. And there’s always one person who wants to be the expert.
And that person ends up being the quote, unquote, expert and having the rules and you’re either in or you’re outside of that. And what I love seeing, even now, when somebody new comes into the Network, I learned so much from reading their new posts and the new things they’re wondering about. And I learned so much from people who are dealing with things that could seem totally irrelevant to me and my family. You learn so quickly how to read into the core of that relevance, how to offer support from your own experience to receive support from that shared experience.
And the ability to share those things and be in a space that is really without judgment, which is so weird. Especially when you’re dealing with something that feels like a high principle, or just high intentionality. Most of those spaces, and I’ve been in a lot that have to do with unschooling, but also that have to do with health or lots of other things, and it can feel like there’s this sort of untouchable expert at the center, or this untouchable idea, and we’re all sort of at the feet of that.
And feeling like we have this communal place, or real community, but also there’s this strong architecture that makes it so that anybody who walks into that space knows, gets the vibe. You can read the room really quickly, what’s going to be allowed here and not allowed here. There’s just not any bad behavior. So it feels really safe in those ways. But now it just lives in my head, all three of your voices live in my head, other people’s voices live in my head, phrases that people have said that I’ve written on a Post-it and stuck on my wall.
So that sometimes throughout my day, like, I’ll be like, oh, okay, I’m feeling uncertain about this. I got to post in the Network. But I can write the whole post and all the answers before I even do it. I realized that’s why I’m maybe posting less, and I think I should just do this anyway, because it was so helpful for me then.
And I love knowing that there are people in there who have been in there since I was there, whose kids are much older, and who aren’t visibly active so much. But just the other day, I posted something that was kind of a tender post. And immediately someone who had been in the group since I joined, who I wasn’t even sure was part of the group anymore, because I didn’t see them, but I thought about them as we’ve had some dialogue, and they just messaged me the loveliest message. Just knowing that there are people for whom this is so important. And just looking at the calls, I get so emotional sometimes when someone is sharing something. And everybody’s giving space, holding space, giving feedback, whatever it is.
And I see these 16 tiles of faces. And I think these are parents all around the world, who are dedicating their Saturday morning or afternoon or whatever it is, to talking about their families and their self development as caring people who are stewards of other people in the world. And that just blows me away. I think that in and of itself is so powerful.
ANNA: I feel like you captured it in a way that I don’t know that I could, because I think it’s really hard to explain to people. Because we do have those calls every week, we’ve been having them since we started in 2020. And I think of all of those weeks that we’ve had calls.
And that’s the piece too, that this web of people all over the world, bringing such intention and there isn’t one path. And you know that we don’t ever talk about there’s one right way or one way to be. But gosh, have I learned so much from just seeing other people navigating all the different pieces in their life.
And again, it may be a relationship issue, and maybe I’m not having that problem in my relationship, but just steeping in that intentionality and growth mindset is so powerful for me individually, and then just the collective of it is incredible. But yeah, I just am so grateful for you being there. And you really have seen it from the beginning and how it’s grown and what it looks like.
I just really appreciated that and got very emotional, because it is, it’s so powerful.
LUCIA: Yeah, and the growth mindset part of it. I think maybe you get lucky to meet a few people along the way in your real life who are invested in that. And I feel so lucky to have that in my partner, Micah, that’s where we are too, that is so important and central. And some people do have that with friends, but to be in a community of people where that’s their focus. And I think it’s maybe the kind of community that some other people may find in a totally different way in, like a church or something.
I always wanted that type of community without any of the one right way, or the dogma piece. Even with the most wonderful ones, there’s a book we’re going to go back to, or there’s a principle we’re going to go back to. Well, our principles are there’s no one right way. Everybody’s different. These expansive ideas.
Some people are nervous to come on the calls. At first, I know that I was, sometimes I’m even nervous now. But it’s hard to describe what it feels like once you’re there. It doesn’t feel like how I imagined, how can you create a warm, kind of magical community online on Zoom? I don’t know how it happened. But I think it’s just exactly that. You guys are the stewards of people coming together in this container with this intentionality, and everybody sort of rises to that occasion. And to do that kind of work in my life constantly is absolutely transformational. It’s changed every relationship I have. Really.
ERIKA: It speeds up the process for me. I feel like being around people who are constantly kind of reminding me of things that I need to work through or things I want to process. It helps me grow faster. I don’t know if that’s the right word. But that’s what it feels like. I don’t know if I would have gotten to these places. You know?
PAM: That’s the word that keeps coming up for me. This whole conversation is intentional, right? It’s like with that intentionality, and just showing up with that openness and curiosity. Okay, we’re going to go open and curious. Showing up with that piece, instead of the dogma, the direction, the measuring against, am I doing it right? Those are the pieces that we work hard to dispel, really, right? Which on one hand feels really good, there’s no rules to follow.
And then on the other hand, it’s like, oh, what do I replace that with? What do I do if I don’t have a rule to orient myself towards? But that’s where the openness, the curiosity, and the intentionality come in. It’s the intentionality piece, like you mentioned, Erika, that helps with the moving forward versus feeling stuck.
And I understand your hesitation about using the word fast to describe it, but maybe faster. It’s the reminder to visit those things. And also the compassion when we don’t have the capacity in the moment, and the space, as you mentioned, just the space, right? Just the open space that’s there for whatever is going on.
But I think that brings me back to the book, The Unschooling Journey, because number one, I love that you talked about the commonality of the different roles and people, mentors, and monsters. We talked about that a little while ago in the network, things that seem like maybe they’re getting in your way, but really, maybe they’re bringing messages. And that side is super interesting.
And to see when we’re spiraling or using that journey, how we can go more quickly, because we have more experience, and we have more language to help ourselves walk through those pieces, to remember, oh, yeah, this is my intention. This is why I want to do this. And oh, yeah, this is new.
Why is this bubbling up now? We’re always talking about that. It’s not that we don’t have challenges in life, we can just notice them a little bit more quickly, and move through them a little bit more quickly, because we gained these tools on what to do, instead of following the one path, right?
ANNA: That’s what I was going to say. We talk about that a lot. It’s not like this makes it the panacea, that nothing ever happens. It’s not all rainbow and sunshines. But wow, do I catch myself faster. I reorient faster. I get back to connection faster. I just slow things down to be able to be present with whatever’s happening faster than if I didn’t have that. So I think that’s the piece, because it keeps happening, keeps happening, all these decades later.
And there’s such a gift to it. And like you’re saying, I think it is faster, but there’s no end point. And I also appreciated you saying, Lucia, that it’s not always comfortable for people. I think some people come to an environment like the Network, and it isn’t comfortable because the one answer idea feels easier. Like, if you just give me the one answer, I’ll do it. That’s how we were trained in school. Tell me what I’m supposed to do, and I’ll do it. I’ll exceed the expectation. This is a little scarier in some ways, I think.
But if you can just get past that fear piece of it, and kind of steep in that container of acceptance and curiosity, it’s so empowering. It just opens up so many possibilities. And I think it really speaks to people when they can get past that piece of, but wait, I don’t want to do it wrong.
PAM: I was just going to say, that reminds me of, Pam, don’t lose it. When you mentioned it, Lucia, too, like when questions or challenges and things come up that don’t directly relate to things that are going on in our life, but it is still so useful to think through because it’s the foundational processes, right? It’s the tools that we’re using.
How do we apply the tools in this situation and in that situation? And that is just so much more deeply useful because then that’s understanding the tools and how you apply it in different places. It just gives us so much more experience on the breadth of how I might take this tool and apply it to all sorts of different things. I think of when we first come to unschooling and you encounter a challenge and you go and you ask, and you get an answer and you’re like, oh great, that worked great.
And then another challenge comes up a few months later. It’s like, oh my gosh, I don’t know what to do. I need to go ask and you ask and you get it, et cetera. If you’re not taking that intentional step to foundationally understand what’s the connection between why these different answers are working for me. I just find for me, I always need to go back and ask somebody because I haven’t learned the foundational stuff, gone underneath all that, where I can now think through something and help myself through it, et cetera. I don’t know if that makes sense.
ANNA: Okay, wait, just really quickly. I think this is making me, sorry, this is making me think about why it makes it faster is because, and maybe it’s personality driven too, but I’m experiencing to some extent all of the issues. We have a member that’s gone through like house flooding and having to move and all the things she’s navigating. Oh my gosh, I’m thinking of your thing with the fire extinguisher, Lucia.
I haven’t gone through those things physically and yet I was able to sit with it, hold the container, process it myself, think about what that would mean. So I think that’s what makes it faster because we only have so many experiences in our life but I don’t need all of those personally to learn more. There’s something interesting about that.
ERIKA: Yeah, I learned a lot about fire extinguishers from you, Lucia. I also, I wanted to pull back that other bit that I love that you said about intentional communities are often rule-based. I think that’s so interesting to think about.
Maybe other people that we meet that are very focused on growth and intention, they are trying to do things the right way though. And so our intention is totally different because it’s an intention about figuring out how people are different and being open and curious, An intention to be curious about things, which just, it feels very different.
LUCIA: Yeah, I mean, I wish it existed. I wish there was a beautiful room I could go to and be next to people and eat cookies and coffee afterwards. It’s like totally that part of it, but I realized it would be great if the world would be different.
You reminded me when you were talking about going through all of these things, even if they’re not your experience. I realized that a lot of what I used to do and still kind of do it out of habit, a fear-based habit, when I would hear about someone had this emergency and they were misdiagnosed and it turned out I would catalog, okay, if they have a rash on their palms, they check for Kawasaki disease. I was cataloging these, okay, if my kid’s not talking by this age, I have to demand whatever it was, some fear-based, okay, I’m going to arm myself with this practical knowledge that will fend off any bad eventuality.
And as we were talking, I realized that’s what we get, this real sort of other meta prevention, which is like we’re not going to prevent anything bad or practical happening, but what we have, we’re going to go through the same thing with it. If I’m feeling really strong about that, my priority is connection with the people involved, choosing out of love, being open and curious, all of the things that foundationally can feel like safety when so many things feel scary. Whether it’s that your kid’s playing video games or that they have an illness or that there’s a challenge. That there’s a different kind of safety, whereas I have always ascribed safety to rules and following best practices and figuring out the best way. So, this is something I’m still working on, but I like the concept.
ANNA: Me too. I do think, because I think our brain can be, you and I are very similar in that, and well, all four of us really, knowing the four of us as I do. I think we all want to, we have that brain that’s cataloging and thinking all the things. But for me, that deep breath into, there’s plenty of time, staying in this moment, being open and curious really is the thing that provides me the most peace and safety, because I think it was so stressful for me when I thought I was preparing for every eventuality, especially in my first pregnancy, and then everything went to hell in a hand basket. It’s like, but wait, I did everything the “right way”, and that got me stuck, right?
But I don’t get stuck there anymore, because I know things are going to happen, but what I know is that I can be present, I can have these connections, I can have these relationships, and that we’re going to figure it out. That feels more like real safety to me than what I was kind of chasing when I was younger with trying to do everything perfectly.
PAM: I love that.
ANNA: Okay, so I want to go to our next question, because I think it’s interesting. Something you’ve talked about on the network and reflected upon on calls is just observations about your kids and their relationship to themselves, and how you’ve seen them evolve as they’ve grown in this environment that you’ve created. How they move through the world, and so are there any little bits that you feel comfortable sharing just about your experience of that.
LUCIA: Yeah, I mean, it has been so interesting. This is an area where I can so directly see. Where I’m just practically learning from them, just by observing how someone else can be in the world, and being someone who is shaped totally differently by an experience of looking outside and adhering to outside standards to determine how I feel, when I need rest, what kind of food I’m eating. To see the opposite of that, of people who have such a strong basis in that type of self-knowledge, intuition, self-reflection, and all bolstered by, I don’t want to say extreme, but just actual autonomy of being.
And I don’t want to say I’ve given them autonomy, they’re not being prevented from being autonomous beings who have agency over so many areas of their lives, as much as possible. I believe that’s part of how they’ve developed this. Just watching how to do it. There’s no question, if they need to rest, they’re going to rest at this time, and if they they’re going to eat this kind of food, they’re going to eat this kind of food, and just this really strong conviction of anybody who gets in the way of that.
And they’re not rude people, but it’s about people who press back on that, are you really going to eat that? You’ve been in bed all day, etc. They have no tolerance for that type of external judgment, and they have sensitive humor about it. They function pretty well in the world, but things that I’m so uncomfortable with, I feel like this is the big personal project of my life to try and unravel the ideas of, have I done enough work to deserve rest? What should a person of my age, what am I capable of doing in a day?
Really having lost total touch with what I actually need to be resourced, and then living with people who are in total touch with what they need. And so, kind of going back to this idea of what are they going to do with their lives or major in, and also what we’ve been talking about as our process is in being open and curious, and all of these principles. That’s what they’re majoring in, right? You can do anything if you’re open and curious, you have a relationship with yourself that is grounded in trust or intuition. People see this, they will say, they’re so amazing, they’re such a pleasure to talk to, they just know who they are, but where are they going to go to college?
You just answered your own question, so it’s fine. But really, it’s just a total flip side of priorities of what starts to happen being steeped in something like this is where those priorities come up and change.
My oldest child was diagnosed with severe scoliosis a few years ago. A total S curve, and they deemed it surgical immediately. They would need surgery, and just in that room, they were just, I think they were 13 at the time, anyway, and just asked the surgeon questions, like, oh, what would happen if we wait? Do we need to do this now? The doctors started with when is your ballet break? When are we going to schedule the surgery? And then answered well, you should probably do this before you’re 22 or 23. They were like, okay, so let’s wait. What are the other options?
I’m using a little more confrontational tone than they did. But they said those things on their own. And then in the car later was said, they put their hands on my back without even asking. And I had to step back from not taking that as like, Oh, I really messed up. That’s my job. But I come from an era where doctors did all kinds of things without asking.
A lot of things, especially for a child, but that they would expect having very little experience with that for a doctor to say, Hey, can I touch your back? They’ve received no education about that. That’s just what they mean, well, they have by living in a world of the person who’s respected, autonomous.
So, that’s how they walked through that whole journey and ended up doing really intense physical therapy and loved their physical therapist. And it turned into this whole fascination with the body and how the body works and alignment and, learning that they were hyper mobile and reading books about this. And so they have a whole fascination with physical therapy and physiology now.
But ended up being deemed by that same doctor a year later, that their curve was corrected by like 14 degrees. And the doctor said, I would not recommend surgery anymore. They have no pain, a total success story for them. But again, there were all kinds of practical and sort of more emotional parts of how that is supported, right?
One is being willing to go out on a limb and run a ledge and be the outsider who’s not going to do the surgery, being willing to do that, right? You have to, again, step outside of this sort of echo chamber, everybody’s going, this is what you do, this is what you do, it’s going to be your fault if you don’t do this.
And just taking in all of the information, looking at the person in front of you asking all of the questions, getting all the information and going, Yes, let’s try this. And then being 100% willing to drive them to physical therapy four times a week, for a year, and them being willing to do it. And I’m having the time to do that in the middle of the day. And so many times I was more in it, in a practical sense. I think during that year, we didn’t have time for a lot of other things.
And they were getting older, we were doing just little, and that faltering that you have along the way. Is it enough? And Micah was like, look how much they’ve learned about themselves, their body, their relationship with their body, their relationship with all kinds of things this year, I realized, yes, wow. And seeing now a couple years later, what a big role that had in their life.
For some people, that story is different and also meaningful for them. They have a surgery, they have this long recovery, they have limited mobility, there’s an identity in that. And for my kiddo, they got this experience that fit their personality, which was to be in their body, get really in tune with, I mean, as a dancer, that’s how they relate to themselves. So it just expanded this vision for them of what is happening for them in their body, in their role, what it means, and the kind of relationship they can have with their body.
I think that really started to solidify for them, a core piece of the way they walk through the world, which I think could feel like an insignificant little side trail for some people. That was the year I had scoliosis and got the surgery or whatever, which is, again, the right path for some. It is not the right path for every 13 year old to do physical therapy every day on their own and in an office for two hours. But that’s what they wanted to do.
And there was a lot of support and scaffolding needed. And then a lot of trust to know when they got to a place where they didn’t need to do as much, and I was still in the like, well, have you done this today? Have you done that?
And they were like, no, I can feel it. I can feel my alignment, I can feel I’m doing okay. And I realized that they had integrated this into their whole, that’s the way they are, is that they’re constantly sort of being in that spiraling place of alignment in their body.
And I got to see it on an x-ray, which we don’t get to see when we’re talking about emotional things, right? There was this kind of parallel for me to get that level of trust with things that are not as evident or not physical around ways they’re thinking about things they want to explore, and to trust that all of that is just as valid, if not more than filling out the transcript, we would have filled out for a ninth grade year. Which is also challenging to come up against.
ANNA: It’s so interesting to think about that journey and how when we look at the threads, that piece of who they are with dance, that was there before. And so I think that’s the piece you trusted for them to be in dance six days a week for years, because it was that important to them. And now you see that they’re taking that experience into all these other pieces and all these other realms. And then their ability to be able to say, to know that I can ask my questions, I deserve for somebody to talk to me and answer my questions.
That’s just really powerful at 13 years old, and I know they’re both like that in different realms. That they have that experience. And I think that is one of the big things that we touch on. That’s a big difference that I see is, I feel like we were talking about it in the network not too long ago of just this kind of adults as authority or the enemy that we kind of structure it that way in our culture. And I think it’s so different when we can have that collaborative relationship between adults and children.
I think everybody’s better off. I feel like that surgeon learned a lot through that experience. And they still may value surgery, because that’s what they do. And they love it. But they learned something. I think having that collaboration just helps everybody involved, no matter what path is chosen.
PAM: I just wanted to bring it back, Lucia, I loved your point about how you could see the results on the x-ray. But it’s just beautiful to recognize that you had that moment, and you could see the intentionality that they were bringing to this whole process, and the choices that they were making, and how that was fitting with who they are as a person through their other choices and activities. But to understand, like you said, for other journeys, and emotional ones, just the different kinds of choices that a person, child or adult, makes in their life, that they are perfectly capable of bringing that same level of intentionality to it.
So that even if we don’t quite understand why they’re making those choices, we’re going to trust it the same as the one that we could more visually comprehend because of its particular circumstances. But to recognize that they are just so friggin capable of that, of being in the world and of choosing how intentional or how deep they want to go with a particular interest, or choice or, I’ve had enough of that. I don’t want to go any deeper, I don’t want to push any harder. I want to quit. That whole piece that is still with intention, that is a choice that they are making.
That is totally there, like you were saying, that authenticity, whatever word one wants to use. I just think that was such a great point. And to recognize the intentionality that they so often bring to things that we can’t see, often we can’t see the impact, again, looking back is easier as well. But yeah, I love that piece.
ERIKA: It’s such a beautiful example of that. And I feel like our kids who have grown up with this kind of autonomy and being more in touch with who they are as a different person than we are, I feel like that helps me remember, there’s not one right way. That’s literally what your child told the doctor’s, there’s not one right way, just telling the surgeon, there are going to be other ways to do this, and we’ll figure it out.
And I think it’s such a great reminder when my kids do that, because I think I was so schooled. So, you just get to a point where it feels like, oh, when this happens, you do this. And if this and this, this is the right way to do that. And that’s the right way to do this.
There’s just a lot of peeling back all those layers of expectations, or just feeling like, what are people gonna think? All of these different judgmental parts that we have. I remembered recently, I asked my youngest, are you interested in traveling?
Because in the past, that’s been something that we’ve talked about a lot and really enjoyed as a family. And it seemed like they really liked it too. And the answer was, not right now. And I was like, that is such a great answer that I would not have been able to give at that age. Because it just kind of leaves space to change. I’m not gonna say I’m not a traveler. But right now, I know I’m not in the season where I would enjoy that. And, I’m just like, wow, it just feels like such a more mature response. Your child at the surgeon is a much more mature response than I would have been able to have at that time. I would have been taken over by the authority feeling. So anyway, I think the kids are amazing.
ANNA: Yes. Two other things that came to mind about this whole piece, I’m going to try not to lose them. So one is, this is back to the x-ray and being able to see it, but not always being able to see it, whatever the journey for them is. And I think it’s just important to say out loud that we may never see it, we may never see the actual x-ray, right?
Sometimes we can look back and we can see the threads. And we can see how that really led into this developmental piece. But sometimes we’ll never see it because we’re different human beings, we’re never going to be inside of them. And I think that can, again, feel scary, or it can feel kind of exciting, to know there is this person on their own journey, and I trust their journey. But that can be tricky. So that stuck out for me.
And then the other piece you said about how people recognize, oh, they’re so self aware and easy to talk to. And then where are they going to school? Or what is their next step? It just reminded me, so you know, I work with a lot of adults and couples and I just wish people could understand that piece that you’re talking about. That’s the reason why they’re coming to seek help in their 40s and 50s. And 30s is because they don’t have it.
It’s not because they didn’t go to school, or they didn’t have the career, they did all those things that they were supposed to do. But they can’t figure out, who’s who am I? What is my voice? What matters to me?
And so for me, these kids that we see, because I mean, we’ve been at this for almost 30 years now, Pam, these kids that we see growing up in this lifestyle and moving on, that is the piece that they have, even through the bumps, and even through the maybe not figuring it out, or tough times, because it’s hard to become an adult and figure out all the things. It’s not that it’s without bumps.
But they do have that core sense of who they are, they do have this sense of, yeah, I can ask people for things, I deserve to have that collaboration. It is just such a different feel. Go ahead, Pam.
PAM: Yeah, so what bubble, they know who they are. And tying back to what Erika said, they know they can change. Yes, that they aren’t static. I know who I am. And this is static. And now everything that happens around me, I must measure against that vision of myself, and respond that way. No, that they have a sense of who they are, and a sense of how they can change, that that change isn’t bad, or wrong, or that who I was two years ago is now wrong, because I see things differently.
LUCIA: Without that, I feel like I was so oriented, like Erika, I was very well schooled in how I was being observed, how I was being interpreted, how I was being identified, and then identified with those identifications. I’m this, I’m that. And so really feeling this pressure to be that and always falling short of that.
And then seeing kids who just have no relationship to that. It’s like it doesn’t exist. It’s so weird. And I can feel it. I felt it. It’s so easy to see with the ballet piece, because you’re going to talk about something where you’re just looking at a mirror all day, right? How do you escape that? And it’s not that they’re not aware of the toxicity around ballet and dance. And that’s why they don’t want to do it professionally.
But they are an unbelievably gifted dancer, their musicality and technique, combined with the amount of hard work that they want to put into it is astounding. It’s hard to not go, but you could be that, everybody thinks you’re that. If it were me, that’s all I ever wanted was to actually be that good, right? And to realize, oh, wow, that’s what they don’t have, which is why they love it.
Why half the days they wake up and they’re like, I love my life. Instead of just what I remember is just the pain of being inadequate. And everybody’s going to experience that no matter what kind of life you grow up in.
But that’s not inadequacy is not the central driving force to overcome. It’s amazing to watch. It’s amazing to be around people who are not oriented to an external reflection of who they are, I guess. That’s what I would like to speed up for myself.
ERIKA: Well, this has been so much fun. And thank you so much, Lucia, for joining us. We hope everyone enjoyed the conversation and maybe had an aha moment or picked up some ideas to consider on your own unschooling journey.
And if you enjoy conversations like these, I really do think you would love the Living Joyfully Network. It’s such an amazing group of people connecting and having thoughtful conversations about all the different things we encounter in our unschooling lives. So we invite you to check it out and see if it fits with our free month offer. You can find the link in the show notes or you could just go to livingjoyfully.ca and the link is right on the homepage. So thanks for joining us and we’ll see you next time!
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For this week’s episode, we’re sharing the next Foundations episode of the Living Joyfully Podcast with Pam and Anna, Open and Curious.
Open and curious is a helpful mindset shift for navigating relationships and challenges. In this week’s episode, we dive into Pam’s mantra and some of the many ways that it has proven to be so valuable in our lives. Being open and curious takes us back to beginner’s mind and allows us to see possibilities and question limiting beliefs that no longer serve us.
We hope today’s episode sparks some fun insights for you!
Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube.
THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODEWe invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network, a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents. It’s a non-judgmental space where you can steep in these unconventional ideas around parenting, relationships, and learning, and explore what they might look like day-to-day in your uniquely wonderful family. We offer a free month trial so you can see if it’s a good fit for you. Click here to join us.
Sign up to our mailing list on Substack to receive our email newsletters as well as new articles about learning, parenting, and so much more!
Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about exploring unschooling and navigating relationships.
EPISODE QUESTIONSHow does it feel to think about being open and curious about the people in your life? What do you discover through that lens? Try being open and curious while navigating a conflict this week, rather than jumping right to the solution you have in mind. What felt different? Think about something in your life that you’re feeling stuck around. What bubbles up when you approach it with openness and curiosity? What other possibilities exist? Next time you’re judging something your partner or child is choosing to do as “bad,” play with the question “Who would I be without this perspective? What would I do instead? How would that feel?”TRANSCRIPTANNA: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. Thanks so much for joining us as we explore relationships, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.
If you’re new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen to the earlier episodes. We started with some foundational relationship ideas and have really enjoyed how they’ve been building upon one another. And if you’ve already been enjoying the podcast, we’d love it if you could leave a rating and a review. That definitely helps new people find us.
In today’s episode, we’re gonna talk about being open and curious. This is something you will hear us say a lot. I first heard about it from Pam and I find myself saying it daily at this point. When you think about the opposite, it’s being closed and disinterested, so it’s pretty easy to see why we both love it.
I don’t want to move through the world feeling closed and disinterested, and it definitely doesn’t help us solve problems or to connect with the people around us.
Being open and curious serves us in our relationships on a lot of different levels. When we’re open and curious about our partner, we want to understand them, what’s important to them, why they see things the way they do. We want to set aside any judgment and really lean into connecting with the person in front of us.
When I find myself not understanding something they did or said, I can remind myself to be open and curious about it, to not jump to conclusions, to not write a story, like we were talking about last week.
That gives us the best chance to avoid a misunderstanding. And part of being curious is asking questions and listening.
PAM: Yeah. I love this so much. I have found open and curious to be such a helpful lens to bring to my relationships. For me, it’s a quick way to get to beginner’s mind, which is a place where I don’t feel like I have to know the answers, and I’m just curious to learn more. I often feel a sense of wonder and a childlike energy when I can get there. And it’s not childish. Childlike. There’s a big distinction.
So, when I’m open and curious, I’m attentive and I’m interested in hearing new ideas and new perspectives. I want to learn how the other person is seeing things. I want to learn what they’re interested in and why it lights them up. And, of course, that doesn’t mean forgetting about who I am.
To me, beginner’s mind is about understanding that the world is richer than just my story. My story, the one I tell about myself, is definitely a vibrant thread, but it also weaves alongside the stories of the other important people in my life. And it reminds me that their story is theirs to tell and I want to listen. I want to know them, not my version of them.
And to take that metaphor just one step deeper, being open and curious reminds me to explore the tapestry of my life, which includes the people I love and care about, not just the thread of my story, thinking it’s the one right way to move through the world. It’s a tapestry of unique people and stories that weave together to create the bigger picture of my life, which leads us nicely into the next aspect that we wanted to talk about, doesn’t it?
ANNA: It does. Because being open and curious also really serves us when there’s a conflict. So often, when we find ourselves in a conflict, we have in our mind the right answer, how this needs to resolve for me to be satisfied. And unfortunately, It just rarely works out the way we plan.
If we come into the conflict pushing our agenda as the only way, we put the other person on the defensive and we end up spending a lot of time defending ideas back and forth, really rarely hearing the other person’s perspective at all. And if we come into the disagreement with this open, curious mindset that we’re talking about, we aren’t abandoning our ideas, like you said, we’re just remaining open to hearing the other person’s perspective.
That energy is felt by the other person, and then they are so much more likely to join us on the journey to understand and figure out options. We’re going to be committed to finding something that works. We’re going to get there faster by remaining open and not tunneling in on our one perspective or idea or what the fix should be.
PAM: I know, for me, when I first heard the advice years ago to listen to my partner, it made so much sense. So, when we were navigating a conflict, I listened. But eventually I realized I was still holding tightly to my right answer, and my listening was mostly focused on picking up the pieces that aligned with my solution, right? Everything else just kind of flew by. I truly wasn’t hearing their perspective. I wasn’t hearing their story. I was only taking in what I thought I could use to support my agenda or my solution, that tunnel vision that you mentioned.
And unsurprisingly, we often ended up at an impasse that way. Each person trying their best to defend and convince the other that their interpretation of the situation and their proposed solution is a right one. Our conversations were energetically draining and steeped in a power dynamic that definitely strained our relationship.
So, once I came to recognize what was happening, I chose to instead try to bring an open and curious mindset with me into our conversations. How are they seeing the situation? What parts of it feel important to them? What parts feel especially challenging to them? Does that make sense alongside what I know about them as a person, all the things we talked about way back in episode three that make them the unique person they are, their personality, their strengths, their weaknesses, sensitivities, all those pieces?
And in these more open conversations, with defensiveness down and curiosity up, there was space for me to share my thoughts and perspectives, not with the energy that this was the solution, but as more information to consider. And without that grasping and no longer feeling like the only choices we have are their initial solution or mine, we could often find a third or a fourth or a fifth path forward right through the situation that took each of our perspectives and needs into consideration.
So, it turns out that open and curious mindset not only gave me the space to learn more about what was going on, it also gave me more space to get creative in finding a solution that worked for everyone involved.
The process is like a muscle that gets stronger with practice. With each experience, where shifting to being open and curious helped us creatively navigate a challenge or a conflict, it became a bit easier to shift the next time, and then the next. Over time, I found myself shifting more quickly from defending myself to trusting that we could find a way through together. Being open and curious just helps me in so many ways, in so many situations with so many people.
ANNA: Oh my gosh, yes. I see it in so many different ways and I feel like it’s one of those tools we can cultivate that gives us something to do instead of taking things personally when we’re in a conflict. And that is so key when we want to navigate those conflicts with more ease and connection.
And this idea is also really important if we find ourselves stuck or with some limiting beliefs. Often this involves outside voices or some cultural constructs that maybe aren’t serving us. And if we bring that open and curious mindset to it, we can start asking questions. Where are these ideas coming from? Are they serving me? Who would I be without them? What other options can I find?
But we can only get there if we open up our minds beyond the parameters that are being applied to us by forces that don’t know who we are or what’s important to us. This allows us to start questioning these societal constructs. So, if I’m in a job that I don’t love, why am I still here? What’s stopping me from leaving? What would life look like if I made a different choice? How would that feel?
And also things we view as “have tos”. We talked about this a few episodes ago as well. We can start to question those have tos. And being open and curious allows that exploration to move us away from things that aren’t serving us, the things we’ve just accepted even if we don’t like the way they feel. “Relationships should be this,” you know, “School looks like this,” “Being successful looks like that.”
All these ideas are worth questioning, especially if we’re wanting to live our best life, a life where we can truly thrive.
PAM: Yeah. When we realize that we can question everything, that we can be open and curious about all the possibilities, I swear it just feels like the whole world opens up. I feel so much lighter. And it’s fun that you mentioned that. One of my favorite thought experiments is to play with the opposite perspective to see how it feels, particularly when I’m feeling stuck or frustrated.
So, say the story I’m telling myself is, I hate that my kid wants to play video games all the time. In my head, it’s fascinating to explore the question, “Well, what if I was a person that loved that my child is excited to play video games all the time?” So, being open and curious means letting the likely immediate reaction of listing all the reasons I think that’s a silly perspective just float on pass, because that’s definitely not being open and curious, and then just noticing what comes up next. How would I feel in those circumstances when I saw my child happily playing?
Well, I think I’d be happy too, because I like this. I’d probably have a big smile on my face.
And then I was like, okay, so then what would I do? If this was something I loved and I was excited about, I’d probably join them, sitting with them, and watching them play. I’d listen attentively to what they shared. And they’d probably be really happy that I’m showing an interest in something that they really enjoy. I’d cheer with them when they beat the boss or finished the level or solved a vexing puzzle, and we’d celebrate together.
So, I have that vision in my head, and then maybe it would occur to me to ask myself, so what’s wrong with that? It sounds like I’d be seeing their game playing through their eyes, which definitely helps me better understand who they are. And it sounds like a very connecting thing to do, which is something that I want to do. So, when I play with that thought experiment, so often I discover that things aren’t as bad as I imagined them to be on the other side. And I can ask myself, why was I holding on so tightly to my fear and judgment of the thing?
It’s just a great tool for me when I’m feeling stuck around what often turns out to be a conventional message that I’ve absorbed, that once I take some time to play with it and dig a bit deeper into it, I discover it really doesn’t make so much sense to me in my life in this moment.
ANNA: Exactly. And I think it’s so interesting that we can find ourselves defending and enforcing ideas because we think we’re supposed to, yet, when we choose to examine them, we find they don’t serve us or our relationships at all. And that open and curious mindset allows us to tune into ourselves and evaluate ideas related to who we are and how we want to move through the world.
Another time I use this idea a lot is when something bad happens, especially something that I might initially label as bad. Instead I can say, hmm, I wonder what’s going to happen here. I wonder what’s coming next. I don’t have to have all the answers. I don’t know all the things.
So, being curious allows me to look for new directions around things that might first be considered roadblocks. I don’t want to be shut down by what happens to me and around me. And the fastest way for me to avoid a spiral is to start asking questions and look at the issue with a wider lens, not jump into the judgment about it.
PAM: Yeah, that makes such a big difference. When you can just know that there are other possibilities. We talked about that tunnel vision, and we can especially feel that when something is going wrong or bad around us and we can get really fixated and pulled into that. But when we can take a step back to start asking questions around it and just looking a little bit bigger picture, that really keeps the possibilities bubbling.
ANNA: Right, and I think it’s related to the things we’ve talked about with time. There’s plenty of time. Because that’s the other thing. You feel the expansiveness of that open curious mindset. So, when something happens, instead of locking in and the judgment, you can feel that expansiveness of, hey, I can take a few minutes to kind of look at this from the wider perspective. So, I like those inner things that we can find energy shifts, because that’s what can help us move through any of these challenges, bumps, conflicts, whatever, with a little bit more ease.
PAM: Exactly. The energy is the whole thing, because the energy is, is ours, but it’s also the energy that we’re bringing to our interactions with everybody around us. It’s so helpful.
ANNA: So, here are some questions you might want to ponder as you explore the idea of being open and curious this week. How does it feel to think about being open and curious about the people in your life? What do you discover through that lens?
Number two, try being open and curious while navigating a conflict this week, rather than jumping right to the solution you have in mind, and then look at what felt different. How did that change how that conflict played out?
Think about something in your life that you’re feeling stuck around. What bubbles up when you approach it with openness and curiosity? What other possibilities exist that maybe you didn’t see at first?
And next time you’re judging something your partner or child is choosing to do as bad, play with that question. Who would I be without this perspective? What would I do instead? How would that feel?
So, hopefully you’ll take some time to think about those questions and about what an open and curious mindset could bring to your life. And we really appreciate you listening and being here with us today, and we will see you next time.
PAM: Yes! Bye.
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Welcome to a new series on the podcast that we’re calling A Field Guide, in which we’re working our way through Pam’s book, The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide.
We’re using the chapters of the book as monthly themes in the Living Joyfully Network, which is bringing everything top of mind for us, and got us excited to share our thoughts here on the podcast as well.
The book, framed around the hero’s journey, is a weave of myths, contemporary stories, and tales from Pam’s unschooling journey. The monomyth of the hero describes an individual who somehow stumbles upon clues to a truth that lies outside of conventional belief, and begins a quest—physical, spiritual, or both—to understand and eventually embody that truth as their new way of life.
Sound familiar? Unschooling unquestionably lies beyond today’s conventional wisdom around learning, parenting, and childhood. And through our journey to understand unschooling, we will learn and grow and change as we come to embrace this new lifestyle. It’s an inner, or spiritual, journey and, by the end, we will see our ordinary world in a new and extraordinary way. And while no two journeys are the same, there are similar stages and characters that you are likely to encounter in some form on your unschooling journey. This is where a field guide shines.
In this first episode, we’re talking about the initial phase of the journey: Choosing Unschooling. We talk about the initial call to unschooling, which looks different for different families. We also explore what it looked like to find our guides along this path, describe the threshold guardians we may meet as we cross the threshold into the world of unschooling, and share what it was like to find ourselves in the metaphorical “belly of the whale.”
It was a fun conversation and we hope you find it helpful!
Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube.
THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODELearn more about Pam’s book, The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide.
We invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network, a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents. It’s a non-judgmental space where you can steep in these unconventional ideas around parenting, relationships, and learning, and explore what they might look like day-to-day in your uniquely wonderful family. We offer a free month trial so you can see if it’s a good fit for you. Click here to join us.
Sign up to our mailing list on Substack to receive our email newsletters as well as new articles about learning, parenting, and so much more!
Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about exploring unschooling and navigating relationships.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPTPAM: Hello everyone, I am Pam Laricchia from Living Joyfully and I am joined by my co-hosts Anna Brown and Erika Ellis. Hello to you both. And today we are starting a new series on the podcast called A Field Guide.
So that means we will have these episodes being released alongside our ongoing foundation series and our journey conversations with other unschooling parents and any other ideas that bubble up for us along the way. We definitely like to go with the flow that way. For this series we’re going to be working our way through my book, The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide.
We’re also working through it in the network, our online community, which is bringing everything top-of-mind for us and got us excited to share our thoughts here on the podcast as well. So the book, it’s framed around the hero’s journey. It’s a weave of myths, contemporary stories, and tales from my unschooling journey.
The monomyth of the hero describes an individual who somehow stumbles upon clues to a truth that lies outside of conventional belief and begins a quest, physical, spiritual, or both, to understand and eventually embody that truth as their new way of life. So, I think that probably sounds familiar to most of our listeners. Unschooling unquestionably lies beyond today’s conventional wisdom around learning and parenting and childhood.
And through our journey to understand unschooling, we will learn and grow and change as we come to embrace this new lifestyle. It’s an inner or spiritual journey and by the end we will see our ordinary world in a new and extraordinary way. My body is full of goosebumps right now.
Anyway, as I explain in the book, we’re calling this series a field guide. That’s in the title because while no two journeys are the same, there are similar stages and characters that you are likely to encounter in some form on your unschooling journey. In this episode, we’re talking about the initial phase of the journey, which I call choosing unschooling, and the first stage is the call to unschooling.
So our journey begins in the ordinary world. I think most of us grew up absorbing the conventional messages around learning that kids have to go to school because that’s where the trained teachers are and to learn something they need to be taught. The call to unschooling is the moment when we catch a glimpse of this new and mysterious world, that world of unschooling, and all of a sudden our ordinary world looks a little bit different, maybe a little less tolerable.
And what I find interesting is that it doesn’t mean that we’ve never heard of it before. You may have heard the term unschooling or homeschooling in passing, but this time for some reason something has caught our attention and we are curious to learn more. That’s the call, the individual call to unschooling.
ANNA: I love the reminder that each journey is so unique and really each calling to unschooling is so unique. I think sometimes it can be this really organic thing that just kind of unfolds and other times a crisis point brings us to a place of looking around and seeing that message that, like you said, maybe had passed by our view before but we thought it didn’t apply, and now it does.
I think for us our call came very early on when we realized school would not work for our oldest. She was a deep diver from the start and we could just see that she really wouldn’t be served by kind of going backwards into this slower linear progression that someone else defined as learning.
We had never planned to homeschool. I was aware of it. It was big in our area, but it just wasn’t our plan. And as I started my own deep dive, I found all these different methods. I can’t even remember all of them. There were so many books that I read at the time and there were bits of each of them that I thought were interesting, right? But they didn’t really seem to line up with the child I had in front of me.
And then I read John Holt’s book, Learning All the Time, and it was this full-body yes. Not only did it validate what I was seeing in our daughter, but it felt deeply true to me on another level related to David and me and how we learned all the time and how we like to engage with learning in the world and how unique that was, even between the three of us, that ultimately became the four of us.
Our priority was this child who had been through so much, medically, already in her very, very short life because this was probably around three. So, stepping out of the well-worn path really wasn’t an issue for us. Our focus was just on her, on her survival, her thriving, and ultimately it helped us to create an environment where all four of us could thrive, which was, just it was really beautiful.
ERIKA: Yeah, I love thinking back to that beginning when I first heard the word, first heard of the idea. And it’s been fun to hear people on the network also share how they got that first call. I just remember, when Oliver was a toddler and a young kid, when he would see other kids playing, he would avoid them. He wanted to be off to the side looking, to have some distance for safety.
And then, if all the kids are going to do this one thing, or everyone’s doing this, he would go the other way. I was just like, okay, that’s going to be really challenging in school where the whole thing is to get everyone excited to be doing the same thing. If everybody was doing the same thing, he didn’t want to be there.
That has kind of changed over the years. But that was my first little peek into thinking that I don’t know that this is really going to work. And I had this vision of people judging him as not doing the right thing, when to me, he was amazing and perfect and doing everything he needed to do.
And so that was where it began for me. I really was just looking around, in a way that I hadn’t before, for alternatives. And I remember learning about different kinds of homeschooling. We didn’t know quite as much about neurodivergence at that point either. But I understood that I can’t make him do any particular thing, it just wouldn’t work. And so, I was trying to support his interests.
And then when I heard about the idea of unschooling, it was like, oh, okay, people are doing something that’s completely different than anything that I had experienced as a kid. But also that just made so much logical sense to me. And I thought, this kind of life is something that could really work for him.
And then when Maya joined the family, we were already kind of thinking that this was the way we were going to move ahead. And so, it’s interesting to see a lot of us get to some of the same thoughts, but from different angles. I really like that part.
PAM: Yeah, for me thinking back to when my kids were young, I did not even know homeschooling was a thing, that it was legal. So, I was deep in trying to help my eldest work with school. I was actually doing a lot of research around neurodivergent and stuff. And there was not as much as there is today. But that’s where I was exploring and trying to work with the schools to try and create an environment that worked for him. And I was doing a lot of work with teachers and with principals, trying to figure out things that would work for him. We tried another school, etc.
It was finally through that research into neurodivergence, where I found somebody’s article who mentioned homeschooling as an option. I was like, what the heck, and I think it was an American article. And oh my gosh, that quick search to see if that was legal in Canada, is that a thing. And I was doing that research and prep for a meeting with a principal at the private school we had transferred to. And I went and talked to the principal. And she’s like, Oh, yes, we will look at what you brought. And she was amenable. And she’s like, well, we’ll look for ways to work with him. Well, she said, ways to look for his gifts. So I was like, Oh, thank goodness.
And I went home and I thought, well, jeepers, he’s been there for months. If you haven’t yet seen him shine, because that’s what I was looking for, because, for me, seeing how he was at home and how he learned and just how he had so much fun during his days. And then the sharp contrast to who he had to become to marginally get through a school day.
We’re just so different. That’s why I was always trying to help the school because I didn’t know there was another option. So as soon as I learned about it, there was maybe two months between that discovery, and me going up to each of the kids individually and just saying, “Hey, I just learned that you don’t actually have to go to school.” Because I had said that. You have to go to school. Let’s try and figure out how we can make this work? It was my approach for a few years. And then they all said, absolutely. I’d rather stay home.
But yes, that call, I’m still thankful to the principal, just for pointing that out to me that, okay, yes, you’re wanting to work with me, but that what you’re telling me is already telling me that this environment, while better than the public school was not as good as we had at home. Because that’s where I could see those gifts and that shining every single day.
ANNA: You didn’t have to search for the gifts, right? They’re just there and apparent when he’s in an environment where he can thrive.
PAM: Just so bright and amazing and wonderful. And it was like, Oh, we could just do this. That’s cool.
Okay, so then the next stage I called finding our guides, because you’ve chosen to accept the call. Also, I will point out that it is perfectly valid to reject the call. There’s oftentimes when like you were saying, maybe you’ve come across it and thought, that won’t work for us. But this is the point where you’ve chosen it.
So you’ve chosen to accept the call and embark on your unschooling adventure. And at this point, your thoughts naturally turn to the road ahead. You’re fueled with anticipation, you’re more than ready to take your first steps. Sometimes, however, the questions and the fears swirling through our minds threatened to overwhelm us. This is something so different. How will I stay on the right path? Will there be clear signposts to guide me? What if I need help? What can I do?
As with many tales that I’m sure we have all heard, read, been through, watched, etc. When we begin our journey in earnest, a guide appears. You know, when you’re ready, the guide appears, the teacher appears, that is such a common thing. Anyway, so mythologically speaking, guides do tend to be elderly, experienced, think Dumbledore, think Obi Wan Kenobi.
But in a fun unschooling twist, as I looked back, I really discovered that the most important guides for me on my journey were my children. And I think that is such a fun twist. Dumbledore and Obi Wan and those elderly masters and guides have gone through a huge life process to boil down to the essence. Whereas children, they haven’t been inculcated with all the conventional messages like to fit in, etc. And when given the space and the freedom to follow just their human instincts, their curiosity, their joy, their fun, oh my gosh, they just do it. And for me to look at them helped me see what’s possible, right?
What kind of a life we could have and how interesting that is. I just found them to be the most useful guides for me in my journey. Whenever I was getting stuck in my head, it was Oh, go back and hang out with your kids, Pam, go do that for a while. And then things would become so much clearer.
ANNA: As I mentioned earlier, our focus was our daughter, and her survival. How do we create an environment that works for her and then add in her sister after she got here. They were so clearly the guides from the start. And I think it’s like you said, because this process, it’s a lot of unlearning for us as adults. It’s a lot of excavating and peeling off all these ideas that were handed to us.
And I mean, I feel the weight of it, even now just thinking about it. And what I saw with them was a lightness, an excitement about the world, this ability to just explore and take it all in. I think everybody’s seen it in a toddler but it’s there in the five and the seven, the 10 and even the 15 year olds. There is this excitement about the world that I think it’s kind of tamped down, as we try to fit into the path and take that linear path. They really were the guide, because they were the only ones around that really had that organic piece of just following their heart, just being excited about something and going with it and not putting filters over it, which I saw a lot of adults doing, myself included.
I was lucky to meet mentors and fellow travelers along the way that absolutely enriched my journey. I think they helped me understand myself more, maybe put some things into context. Each journey is so unique, but it was helpful to see, to have those fellow travelers. But really, it was the kids that were the real guides, because they just knew what they needed.
And we could see them thriving. And we could see that the environment worked. It was interesting because it not only worked in great times, when we were having fun but it really worked in the hard times too, because that connection, that focus on relationships, that was a big part of our family. It really helped equip us with what we needed to get through those hurdles that life would throw at us. And so it was just really interesting, like you said, it really turned it on its head to think about like, oh, we don’t need the expert.
The clear message for myself was, I don’t know better for someone else, ever. Not my kids, not the neighbor, not my spouse. As soon as I could get there, then I could be more open to really hearing what they know about themselves, what they know about how they want to move through the world. I love turning it on its head and seeing just how much they can teach us.
ERIKA: Yeah, I love that. I think that was why I was drawn to Pam’s work at the beginning of my unschooling journey, just because there was so much of that, redirecting my attention back to my children, because that’s what’s happening. The reality of our situation is what they’re interested in and what works for them.
But it was such a huge paradigm shift. I do remember at the beginning, just doing so much reading and maybe it was almost like a search for some guidance, at that time to just be like, this is so different than anything that I have thought about before so different from my experience as a child. And so I had not done much questioning of anything.
I mean, maybe in the back of my mind, but I hadn’t actively been like, what’s bad about school? What’s wrong with this situation? And school was challenging in ways for me too. And so it was just a lot of learning and a lot of just questioning all the things I thought I knew, all the things that I had been told, and just getting a new understanding for myself. And I think I needed to do that. And really read from the experience or listen to the experience of people who had already been questioning this, because it helped me kind of leap forward along in my own thinking.
And then once I did start that process of questioning things, it was very fast. It just made so much sense to me. And it was so fun. My mind was just like, this is so great, things that didn’t quite make sense to me as I was growing up, it was like, oh, yeah, because that didn’t work at all. It was really validating for myself to realize that the environment is so challenging and does not work for most brains.
And so I think, finding people who had already thought a lot about it, and we’re writing about it was really helpful. I’m thinking about John Holt. And I read John Taylor Gatto’s very angry books about education. They were really helpful just to be like, wait a second. It got me pretty fired up. But then moving forward, definitely Pam’s reminders to just look back at your kids, that was the most valuable guide along the way, as we continued our journey.
PAM: Yeah, I feel that, because they’re both sides to it, right? I found wonderful communities of experienced unschoolers, because I needed that so much. I hadn’t even heard of homeschooling, that was how my world opened to the possibilities.
I soaked it in like a sponge, just to see what other people were doing, what their experiences were, how they were approaching things, how they were thinking of things. That was all brilliant, that helped expand my context, expand the possibilities for what I could bring. And then, you were saying, when challenges come, having to go back to my kids or when my mind started spinning and wondering and questioning, and I wasn’t getting anywhere. My kids were my guides, because I could go back to them.
And that’s what was happening in our lives. You’ll hear that through the podcast for years, people are different, who are my kids, my kids aren’t their kids. But go back, if you’re newer, I hope you can go back to the unschooling rules series and the unschooling stumbling block series that we have on the podcast.
Because that can happen nowadays. When you’re first learning about things, when you’re looking to people who have experience, you’re kind of looking for the rules, well, then how should I do this? It’s something completely. How should I do it?
But if you don’t bring that back into your lives, into your kids, into you as a person, those are bound to rub. Somebody’s generic rules about how we do this thing are going to rub because they’re not your people. They’re not your family.
So, when things come up, and we’re looking for guidance, looking to our children, through the lens of the possibilities and things that we are bringing to mind, and we’re thinking about what might work for us, engaging with our kids and seeing it in action. That’s where you really feel the truth of it. So, as guides, when you’re in a tough spot, they’re such a lovely place to go.
Okay, so the next stage of this choosing unschooling phase of our journey, we are now crossing the threshold into the world of unschooling. In many myths, the hero encounters one or more threshold guardians as they cross into the mysterious new world of their story. These guardians are often gatekeepers like Cerebus, the three headed dog of Greek mythology who stands guard at the entrance to the underworld.
So for me, these guardians were things like, family and friends who were pointedly questioning our choice to not send our kids to school. Kind of testing my resolve to leave the ordinary world. And we were speaking of unschooling communities and finding experienced unschoolers. But there are some, at least, at first that seemed rather dogmatic about what unschooling “done right” looks like.
So it felt to me like they were kind of testing my quote worthiness to enter this new world of unschooling. What if that doesn’t seem like something I would ever do? Does that mean I can’t enter this world?
And then there was also navigating the more official guardians, like getting permission to homeschool from our local Board of Education and finding out what those regulations and things were and how to meet those. It was also helpful to find local communities and see how they were doing that as well. So learning those pieces. These can feel like things that are kind of rubbing, they’re getting in the way of us moving into this new world of unschooling.
But moving through them is kind of all part of the process. Learning about those pieces, learning why, why do I still want to do this, even though family and friends, with all the love in the world, are not wanting us to go outside of the ordinary world that they know, and they don’t understand that. So it’s scary for them.
And recognizing the part of the role that I’m playing and giving them that authority to be telling me that. How I’m taking it in versus how they’re sharing the message. Anyway, so yes, the guardians can be very different for different people, depending on where you are. But those were three that I definitely encountered on my journey.
ANNA: Yeah, I think most people probably encounter those. Maybe one is going to weigh heavier than the other. But I think the imagery is really helpful here, because it does provide that bit of separation, it puts us in that analyzing part of our brain where it’s not so emotional. It’s like, oh, look at these guardians. They are giving me some information.
And I think it can help us see that well meaning friends and family members are really just giving us information about who they are, and what’s important to them. And people can be very attached to their paths. And they feel best when they keep everybody on their path, because that’s their validation, right?
Well, if we’re all here on this path, then it must be the right path. People are still in that paradigm. And so I think it just helps us to recognize that it’s not about us, and that we can stay focused on what’s working with our family, just like we were talking about a minute ago, look back at your kids, what do you actually need? And then that big piece of that is trusting that it’s okay if it looks different, that they don’t need to be on our path, we don’t need to be on their path. We don’t have to convince anybody, it’s okay for it to look different for everyone, we’re all learning different things throughout that journey.
For number two, you know, I’m not a big fan of any kind of dogmatic ideas, whether it’s around diet or education or anything else, because we’re so unique, and each journey is so unique. There is not one right way. Okay, maybe I am dogmatic about that, people probably get irritated with me about that! I think the idea that there’s a right way really can feel comforting, I do totally get that, that it feels comforting, but to me it’s just so short-sighted, and the rigidity of it really restricts our growth. That’s what I saw in myself, because I’ve had my dogmatic days, especially when I was younger, and what I saw was that I just shut out so much when I was so focused on there being this one right way to do something. I feel like a whole world opened up when I realized, oh there are lots of different ways to do things. We’re each going to choose what works for us, and then change and pivot and do it again and twirl it around.
It was just so expansive for me, and I loved that expansive feeling, versus feeling like I needed to put myself on rails, to do either unschooling right or something else right. I just really loved that, and so just understanding there isn’t the perfect path, that it’s all growth, it’s all learning, it’s all context, it’s all building our web.
And then just quickly about the laws, I just want to encourage people to really understand the specific laws in their area, so for us it’s States, there’s provinces, you know, all kinds of different ways that it’s handled in different countries, but know exactly what’s there, and I mean read the statutes, because many times these kind of governing bodies will ask for way more than is actually legally required. When you can truly understand the statutes of your area and be able to speak about them, it will help you feel grounded and empowered because you know what we’re dealing with.
I lived in a state where they required annual testing. But when you dig into it, you don’t have to send the test to anyone, you have to keep it on file for X amount of time. There were all these nuances of the specific laws that I was like, oh, okay, we can make this work. It doesn’t have to be timed, you don’t have to do a specific level, and so there were all these different little nuances. And so I loved what you said Pam too about local groups. It does really help, I think, even if a local group may not fit you in all ways, to just check in with them, because they’re navigating those same laws and can help calm you and help you understand what’s really required. They will share some ways to make that work for your family and your specific kids and their brain.
So, just spend a little bit of time with that, because I think it can feel a little shaky if you don’t know that and you don’t know if you’re on solid legal ground. And so just me taking that time helped me feel really confident in any environment that what we were doing was legal and in compliance.
ERIKA: One thing I like about this guardian section is how the different areas kind of require a slightly different approach, but they’re all manageable. Once you wrap your head around what’s going on here. So, for the official stuff, shout out to Nance from Florida unschoolers, she is serving this role for Florida unschoolers, just reminding us of what is required. And it’s not a lot. She runs this big umbrella school that just makes it really easy for families to avoid having to do extra documentation that’s just not required by law.
There are people in every state who have figured things out and are working to look at what’s legally required and making sure that we can do it as easily as we can. And then for those family and friends, I think it’s so unique. I love hearing other people’s stories about this, because there are some difficult families out there with a lot of expectations of their kids and grandkids and people who have been in education their whole lives, and they think they know everything about it. And I think that adds such a layer of difficulty to this.
When you’re facing a guardian that is that intense, and that feels so confident that their information is the right information, it’s tough. Fortunately, for our family, we didn’t really have to deal with much of that at all. And I think just personality wise, I come in with a lot of confidence about what I’m doing.
And so I haven’t really had as many people questioning. But when I hear about people who have those really close family relationships, where it is very intense, and people are thinking this doesn’t feel safe. And I do love going back to just remembering, that’s based on their experience in their life.
And what they’re telling us about our life is really just telling us about themselves. Where they’re feeling judged, or where they’re feeling, well, if what you’re saying is true, it kind of makes everything I believe fall apart. That’s a very scary feeling.
And so people will really hold on tight to these beliefs that they have, like you were saying, Pam, at the beginning, well, you have to go to school. And if that’s not true, then I don’t know, that starts to feel a little scary for some people. How could that not be true? I had to go to school.
This is the belief that everything we do is based around it. It just helps me have a little bit more compassion for them, because it’s too scary for them to be able to go there. But we are each on our own journey. And so that’s okay. It’s okay if it’s different.
And I did come across those dogmatic unschoolers as well at the beginning of my journey. And that’s just another thing that I think it helped me learn, it helped me kind of clarify, what are the things that feel true to me right now? What are the things that I see working for my family right now? There were ideas that I thought, you know, we would never get to that place of like, what they were calling radical unschooling back then.
That sounds like too much. But then over time, the learning and things just naturally evolve where it starts to make more sense than it does at the beginning. But I do think it can be a little scary for unschoolers at the beginning of the journey.
If they see people who are doing things that are just wildly outside of their comfort zone. But I think that’s why I really like the vibe that we have on the network, because it doesn’t feel like that to me. It feels like everybody’s sharing experiences, but there’s no judgment about where you are along the path. I just feel like that kind of support where you can see people doing things differently. But it doesn’t feel like a threat. And I really appreciate that type of environment.
ANNA: Something you said, I just want to jump on real quick and that was that confidence piece, because I really do think that coming into those family environments with just a confidence, just a calm confidence, not an aggressive, I have to convince you confidence, but just a calm confidence makes such a difference.
And I think one of the things that’s really helpful with that is to be a part of community, whether it’s a small group of friends or joining something like the network, where when you have the doubts or the questions, which are going to come up for all of us, you take it there to a group of people that are going to hold it lightly. They are going to let you examine it without the judgment without the fix being, well, put them back in school or put them in their own bed or whatever the thing is. And so, because I think, especially those of us that have good relationships with our family, we came to them with things, we asked them for things, but this may feel outside of their comfort zone.
So just keep that more about connecting with the grandparents or connecting with the aunts and cousins and asking your questions in a place that really knows more about what you’re trying to do. Because it’s not about that there’s an answer or a path, but I just found it so helpful to hear from people that at least had the same priorities that I did, that we’re prioritizing the relationships and we’re prioritizing this path. It feels really different.
And I think that helped me have confidence in those other areas because I didn’t need to be asking them questions about it.
PAM: And you know what, I mean, this is exactly why I was originally inspired to write this book in the first place, as in a field guide, as in our journeys don’t look the same, but chances are there are going to be some challenges when people start to know that we’re not sending our kids to school anymore, right? Some challenges when we start looking for more information. Just understanding that shift that what they’re sharing is, even though the way it’s shared often feels like a judgment of us, actually, it really is all about them and where they are in their journey. And understanding that piece can completely help us shift how we engage with them.
Like you said, we have more compassion for them because we understand, we see through their eyes why they’re thinking this. We don’t feel as much the need to defend because it’s okay, they’re really stuck. I can’t change them. My goal is not to try to change them. If they’re curious, this is a seed that’s planted and they can come and ask questions. So now I don’t get defensive and keep trying to share and convince and tell them I’m right.
It’s like, this is working for our family right now and we’ll see how it goes. We’ll see where it goes. And pass the bean dip.
I don’t need to engage in this conversation because this is about their need. And we know they’re struggling with all sorts of questions. So give them time to process and to choose which questions they want to actually dig into. That was something that really helped me to eventually just not get engaged deeply. It doesn’t mean ignoring them. It means having other conversation starters in my back pocket.
What’s your favorite movie that you saw recently? What are you doing for fun? That was one that I used to love all the time. There are so many other possibilities. But just having a guide to the journey that can let us know these things are popping up. Help us recognize because so often we’re just so busy and stuck in our days. We really don’t have the opportunity to think bigger picture.
Anyway, okay. So our last stage of this choosing unschooling phase of the journey. We have stepped across the threshold. Hi guardians. I embrace you and now I’m moving past you. We are now going to be embracing beginner’s mind. And I will say I love how Joseph Campbell in The Hero’s Journey describes this stage. He writes it as the hero instead of conquering or conciliating the power of the threshold is swallowed into the unknown and would appear to have died.
So, when I first read this book, Hero with a Thousand Faces, when I got really curious about how the unschooling journey fit in, this was years after, right? But oh my gosh, this hit so hard. Being swallowed is a popular image in stories that symbolize a transition, right?
It describes the hero’s figurative death in the ordinary world and their rebirth in the new one. It’s about shedding our preconceptions and assumptions that made sense to us in the ordinary world and embracing beginner’s mind to learn about the new one. This stage is also often described as the belly of the whale, right?
In storytelling terms. And I just found that such an apt metaphor. And the whale comes in all shapes and sizes too, depending on the journey. When I was looking back, I just found it fascinating how well it described what happened for us, which is a long season of cocooning. For us, the whale was definitely our home. I found we spent a lot of time at home as we transitioned away from our ordinary world.
Home felt like a sanctuary for all of us. And it was free from judging eyes for me. And it was a place where the kids could dive into their play with abandon.
But after I read that, I thought from the outside looking in, I definitely can imagine that it kind of looked like we had died, right? But we were very happily cocooning. So for me, approaching these days with a beginner’s mindset helped me release many of the assumptions about children, about learning, about parenting, that I was carrying with me as truth.
This was just the conventional wisdom of what this looked like. But I can now see what they actually look like in our actual lives. And it got me constantly wondering, what if that’s not true? Beginner’s mindset was just a lens or a metaphor for me that really helped me feel more comfortable, just questioning all those pieces. What if that’s not true? I could just play with it, right? It’s not like I had to shift quickly from one strong belief to another strong belief. It was like, ooh, what if that’s not true? And it was just like a mind-blowing season for me.
ANNA: I love that. I think it is this really important process to create that kind of sacred space, especially when you’re leaving something that’s so institutionalized and mainstream to really allow space for everyone to settle in and begin that journey of self-discovery, self-awareness, outside of those institutional models.
Our call came pretty early. So, in terms of how it looked inside and probably to the outside, it was very similar. We just kind of kept doing what we were doing. But I think for me, what struck me as you were talking is that beginner’s mind piece.
I saw that with myself. I may have done my own little withdrawing a little bit, which ended up being a lot of reading, a lot of finding people because of that exact thing that you mentioned. Everything was on the table. I’ve always been a questioner of things, but it’s really discouraged. Which is so ridiculous. It’s critical thinking people, we should not be discouraging it, but it was. And so suddenly I was like, wait a minute. Nobody’s telling me I can’t do it, like they were when I was in school. Nobody’s telling me that I can’t look at all these pieces.
And so I do feel like there was a time where I really just cleared the slate and saidy let’s just start putting everything on the table. Do we really believe this? Do we really need this? Does this really serve me? And honestly, I will say, Pam, we say this a lot, but I kind of feel like I do this every decade or two. I’m doing it again now, in my mid fifties. Are these the things I want? Do I need to do this? Do I need to have these same rules? And so I don’t know. I think that’s a really cool vision to create a little insular space to get all the outside noise quieted down, to see where you are, to see where you want to grow. And we come out of it, right? We come out of those spaces.
PAM: I just want to pop in for one second, because you said like we cycle through this journey over and over. And I will put in the show notes, my image for the journey. And it is a circle because it is not linear: I was in the ordinary world, now I’m totally adjusted to unschooling and that’s the end of that journey. No, this kind of journey, this spiritual journey of self-awareness, et cetera, definitely is a circular thing that recurs. Anyway, thank you.
ERIKA: I love that. And I think it helps us to realize that that’s true, because I think maybe sometimes it’ll feel like a failure if we feel like we’re back at that questioning place again, about anything really. It can be frustrating when it’s like, didn’t I figure this out? Haven’t I already decided who I am? And then now things change. But yeah, I think it’s cool that it is a circle. And we go through many phases in our lives.
And I also love the reminder about beginner’s mindset, because I think that helps everything. It helps for all parts of our lives. But especially for this, and that being in the belly of the whale. I don’t know if from looking outside in, if anybody would have described it that way. I think for me, that feeling was more internal, because so much of my life was about academic achievement, doing really well at the things people wanted me to do.
And so it was really big, it was like a death of who I used to be, realizing a lot of these things. And I would get little reminders of that when I would be around people from older times in my life, who have this view of me that now doesn’t feel like me. And so, yeah, it’s deep, it’s a deep change that feels, it feels big like that.
And then as a side note, every time I read the belly of the whale, it makes me think of in Roblox, those obbies when you end up going in some big mouth. For some reason, I always think of those classic obbies, you always end up for some reason going into some big character’s mouth. So I don’t know, I thought maybe some other parents might have had that similar experience at some point. And I just always get that visual.
PAM: Yes, I think it’s very fun. There are different visuals too. There’s the train. So often, there’s a train journey, think Hunger Games, think Harry Potter off to Hogwarts. There’s always just some sort of metaphor, leaving one life behind and going to a new one, etc. So I find it very interesting.
Thank you very much to everyone listening for joining us. Thank you very much to Anna and Erica. It was an amazing conversation. And we hope you enjoyed our dive into this first phase of the unschooling journey, choosing unschooling.
And we also invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully network to continue the conversation. It really is like we were talking about earlier, about communities that expand the context that introduce questions I never thought of in that way. When we were talking about all the questions that we can put on the tables, maybe some we haven’t even thought that we could revisit yet, and have a place where we can do that without feeling judged.
Anyway, it is a warm and welcoming online community of like hearted parents, a non judgmental space where you can steep in these kinds of unconventional unschooling ideas. And just explore as we were talking about earlier, turning back to our guides what that might look like day to day in your uniquely wonderful family.
And we are very excited to welcome you. To learn more and join us just follow the link in the show notes or go to living joyfully.ca. And you’ll see network right there up in the top menu. We wish everyone a lovely day. Thank you so much.
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For this week’s episode, we’re sharing the next Foundations episode of the Living Joyfully Podcast with Pam and Anna, Stories.
Humans are storytellers. We choose the stories we tell about our lives. In every situation, we can come up with a number of ways to tell the story of it, and they’re all a version of the truth. But we get to choose which version resonates the most with us, which one feels better to us, and then that informs our actions moving forward. Getting curious about the stories we tell can be an amazing form of self-care!
We hope today’s episode sparks some fun insights for you!
Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube.
THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODEWe invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network, a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents. It’s a non-judgmental space where you can steep in these unconventional ideas around parenting, relationships, and learning, and explore what they might look like day-to-day in your uniquely wonderful family. We offer a free month trial so you can see if it’s a good fit for you. Click here to join us.
Sign up to our mailing list on Substack to receive our email newsletters as well as new articles about learning, parenting, and so much more!
Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about exploring unschooling and navigating relationships.
EPISODE QUESTIONSWhat stories are you holding on to about yourself, your partner, and your family? Where are the stories coming from? From your parents during your childhood? The outside voices of society? Somewhere else? Do you see the story in your self-talk? How else might you tell that story? How does it feel to realize that you get to craft your own stories?TRANSCRIPTPAM: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We are very happy you’re here exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.
And in today’s episode, we are going to talk about stories, both the stories we tell ourselves and the stories we assign to other people, meaning what we think they’re thinking. And yes, it can get very messy.
Now, this episode is a bit longer than usual, but we think it’s worth it. Stories are intricately woven into our relationships with the people that we love, and that’s because humans are storytelling animals. It’s how we make sense of our world. In the book The Storytelling Animal, How Stories Make Us Human by Jonathan Gottschall, he wrote, “Story is for a human as water is for a fish – all encompassing and not quite palpable.” I love that so much, because story truly is everywhere. And the language we choose makes a profound difference, because the stories we tell ourselves become our self-talk. That is why we want to be intentional about the language that we’re using.
And what’s really fascinating is that for pretty much any situation, we can come up with a number of ways to tell the story of it and they can all make sense and all could truthfully tell the story of that situation. And the thing to realize is, we get to choose which one resonates most and feels better to us, which then informs our actions moving forward, which calls back to our conversation in episode seven about how every moment is a choice. Stories and choice are woven together so well, aren’t they?
ANNA: Oh my gosh. So much. For me, truly understanding the role of story has been so pivotal. That awareness allowed me to step back and observe, so, where’s this story coming from? Does it feel real to me and who I am in this moment? Is it serving me? And if I’ve held onto it for a long time, why? Why have I held onto that story? And who would I be without it? That’s one I love to think about. Who would I be? What would it feel like?
Because there’s an energetic feeling to that. What do I feel without this story that I’m telling about myself or these people in my life? And those questions really can only come about once you take off the veil and realize that everything is a story. Then I get to dive in and have these questions. And through the questioning, I can hone in on what is really working for me.
And then I can start to change my story to be more reflective of me as the person I am now, the person I want to be moving forward. And I could see the role of story more clearly and use it as a tool instead of being held hostage by it, which is kind of how it felt before.
And for me, like you said, language is such a big piece of that. I try to be so intentional about my language that I use, whether I’m defining some kind of big event or a very simple task in front of me, because in that language is choice. I’m developing the story that informs my day and tells others who I am. And so, that piece is so critical to me, just seeing it for what it is. And then, how do I want to create my narrative? What language do I want to use to describe it? I like thinking about it.
PAM: Yeah. And once you see the scope of it, it’s incredible, because it’s not only the stories that we’re telling ourselves, but it’s understanding that the stories we’re telling others about ourselves and about our lives is the picture that they’re going to draw from. That’s where they’re going to meet us.
So, first, let’s look at our self-talk, at our inner voice. Sometimes we don’t think we have control over our self-talk. It just appears in our head, the words over and over and over when we’re spiraling over something, right? But we truly can change that over time as we make intentional changes to the language that we use and the stories we tell ourselves.
It is worth taking the time to listen to our self-talk a bit more objectively, to just ask ourselves, is this a helpful story for me?
ANNA: Right, because we have the self-talk, and we don’t think we can change it. I think that’s something I believed when I was younger. It’s hard to change or we’re given this story that it’s hard, but I think we may assign it more importance than perhaps serves us. So, I love the idea of really diving into that, because self-talk is just an aspect of our story. It’s no different. It’s no more powerful. And it’s not this boogeyman that it’s kind of made out to be.
And sometimes our self-talk is the stories that have been handed to us, perhaps by our parents or past relationships. And what’s so important there is to realize that the stories they told, even if the story is about us, is their story. It’s not ours and we don’t have to take it in and own it. It’s about them, where they were at the time, the stories that perhaps they were handed.
And so, that’s the thing, right? We can just keep continuing to hand down these same stories or we can take control of our own narrative. We can look at who we really are and what’s actually in front of us, and then write a story that lifts us up, because that helps us be the person that we want to be and it will inform our next steps in a given situation. And I think that’s what’s so important about it. That’s how insidious stories are. When we carry these stories from someone else, they change our energy and then they inform our next steps, and it keeps us on this same narrow path.
But at any moment, we can take back the reins. We can examine the stories that we’re clinging to and we can make choices because yes, Pam, it’s always about choices with me. We’re going to keep bringing that up.
PAM: Yes. Definitely. I love the point about realizing that the stories other people are telling about us, especially the stories we grew up with, are just somebody else’s perspective. It’s their story. So, maybe we’ve absorbed the story that we’re too sensitive, or we’re scared to try new things, or we’re very shy. That isn’t our story. It’s their story about us. And we get to choose our own story.
Speaking of, it’s also helpful to realize that goes both ways. So, for example, take a moment to consider the stories we’re telling our partner about our day. Maybe we’re more likely to take it as an opportunity to vent. “I am so tired,” or, “So many things went wrong today.” Is that what I want to convey? What will their view of my day look like from my story? Maybe that I’m so tired because I was busy having fun playing with the kids, or deep in the flow of working on a favorite project or knocking a bunch of those tasks off my to-do list.
Maybe more things unusual went wrong today precisely because I was working a to-do list that was filled with those iffy jobs, and I got them done in the end. But how will they see my day through my venting words? Probably not as the ultimately satisfying day that I saw. So, understanding that the stories I tell, big and small, live on in the world reminds me to be more intentional. Now that doesn’t mean not venting, but maybe prefacing it with a quick qualifier. Like, “My day was great. I just want to vent about a couple of things.”
It means considering who I’m speaking with and choosing my language to better convey the meaning of my story. Is what I’m saying true? Is it how I want to be seen by others? What do I need or want from the conversation? Because stories are the lifeblood of communication.
ANNA: Yes. And I think it’s interesting, too, thinking about that. What do I want to get from this story? Because if we do come at our partner with all the things that have happened in the day and then they come back trying to solve things and really we’re like, “Wait a minute, it’s just a story we’re telling about how we had these tough things,” you know? So, keep all that in mind. It’s the lifeblood of communication. I don’t think that’s an overstatement. I think that’s really so true.
And so, keeping in mind that others will see our story through their lens, what they know, and that’s okay. Understanding that helps us put their comments or reactions into perspective as well. Back to everyone is different. We see and experience the world differently.
PAM: Yes. And that is absolutely a wonderful thing. We have control over our stories and what pieces we choose to share and how we choose to share. Understanding that other people come to conversations with their lens, too, so, not expecting them to fully understand what it looks like through our eyes and not even expecting them to even be curious to understand. We can’t control where they are on their journey.
Now, I also want to talk about the stories that we assign to other people, because so often we tend to assume the worst story. For myself and many others that I’ve spoken with, when we’re feeling disconnected from someone or they react negatively to something we’ve said or done, the story we immediately tell ourselves is that we did something wrong, but often that really isn’t true.
It’s so helpful to remember that, when we’re thinking about what someone else is thinking, that is a story that we’re making up. No matter how well we know them, we still don’t know for sure. So don’t assume that the first story that we jump to is the same story that they see.
ANNA: Yes. So often, we find ourselves putting words into people’s heads, and we will actually play out the scenarios till the end without the other person involved at all. “They’re upset with me. I did something wrong. They don’t like what I’m doing,” whatever the words were saying. Even, “They’re trying to hurt me. Their actions are intentional towards me.” So often, we get that very wrong. We really don’t know what’s happening in another person’s head.
I have a friend that will honestly just create entire movies and the challenge with that is, it doesn’t leave room for anything else. Once you’ve created a story for someone, you start acting from that place with that energy. So, if you’ve ever had one of those dreams where it’s so real, your partner has done something terrible and really upset you, and you wake up and you’re still super mad and they’re going like, “What is happening? I just woke up. I don’t know what you’re talking about!”
But it’s the same when we create a story. We can buy into that energy and bring that energy to the person and they have no idea where it’s coming from. But instead, if we can first assume positive intent, second, we can ask questions and leave space and remain open, then the person’s free to share what they’re actually feeling. And so often, it does not come close to the stories that we’re making up.
So, I have a friend and a while back, she shared a story and she didn’t share it as a story. She shared it as a fact. She said that her husband didn’t find her attractive. And she said, “He actively avoids even touching me when we walk each other past each other in the hall.” And I was like, “Oh, wow. Have you talked to him about that?” And she was like, “Well, no.” And then when she did, she found the complete opposite was true. He was trying to be respectful of her space. So, he felt by moving aside in the hall, he was showing respect for her space and honoring her.
And so, then they had this conversation around what would feel good to each other and how they want to move forward. And it’s very different now. But she had been telling that story for years and he had no idea. That’s just how insidious these stories are. And I think it’s just really worth examining the stories that we put on others, even when we feel it’s justified, even if we think we know them so well, even if we’ve held onto these stories for years. Conversations are so important. Being open and curious. Leave space for people to tell us who they are. Pre-writing a detailed story does not.
You can feel that closed energy when you come in with this pre-populated story and it’s so disconnecting. Even some light inquiry can shed light on what’s really going on and give space for each person to share their perspective. And then we can understand where the communication broke down in the first place and why maybe we’re seeing it differently, but that won’t happen if we stay in our head creating stories. That will only happen with that choice of connection and that choice to have some conversations.
PAM: Yeah, sometimes I can get stuck in a really negative story about someone else, and I just don’t feel confident enough to ask about it yet or bring it up. But when that happens, I found it helpful to just remind myself that it’s a story and then start to play with that. How else might this story go? What about this? Does that fit? Maybe this? So, once I think of a few other things, even if they seem outlandish to me right now, I realize that there isn’t just one possible story. It wasn’t just the one thing that I was clinging to and being upset about. That lightens things up for me.
And usually, when I’m feeling lighter, now I can get curious. Which one is it? I want to know now. And then usually I can get to the space, the energy, where it doesn’t feel so heavy and I can actually bring up the conversation with them. I can actually go, “Hey, what about this? What did that feel like to you?”
On the flip side, moving through that process over and over helped me realize that I really don’t know what’s going on in another person’s life that has led them to make whatever choice it is that they made. That’s their story, their truth. That’s been a very helpful discovery on my journey around stories, just that realization that these are stories. My story, their story, it’s their truth in the moment. And that is just enough. I can be curious then. It reminds me that there are multiple ways that things can go.
ANNA: Right. And there are just always more layers, I think, to peel back on our stories, which kind of leads nicely to this last bit we wanted to talk about. We get to choose the stories we tell. And we touched on this back a bit back in the choices episode, but I want to bring it up again. We choose the stories we tell about the big things like our childhood and the little things like the grocery store. And in every situation, there are things that are easier and harder, that work or don’t work. But we can choose to focus on those aspects that make sense and feel better to us.
For any situation, we can come up with a number of ways to tell the story of it, and they all make sense in the context of the activity, the situation, the people involved, and they can all truthfully tell the story. But now, we get to choose which one resonates the most with us, which one feels better to us, which then informs our actions moving forward. That’s the power of story.
PAM: Right. Especially in more challenging situations, it’s so valuable to take a moment to not just jump in with the first story that comes to mind, which is usually fear-based. And it’s usually the worst one, the worst interpretation of things. And if we just stick with that one, we can get tunnel vision and start spiraling downward in our fears. We can get really stuck there if we only see this one worst interpretation of the situation in front.
So, instead, take that moment to come up with a few more stories that align with the situation. If we don’t take the time to consider other stories, we’re not really making a meaningful choice moving forward, are we? You can’t choose between one thing. And choosing more positive stories, ones that feel better to us, isn’t about avoiding the truth, because the different stories all incorporate the facts. But for me, choosing the more positive story is really a form of self-care.
Instead of telling myself over and over the versions that make me feel bad, that weigh me down, that pull me into that tunnel vision, I can tell myself the versions of the story that both make sense and feel better. Because from there, I’m in a more open and curious and receptive mindset, a place where I can now see more opportunities. I can be more creative in choosing my next step and my next moment is truly better. And I find myself then starting to spiral upwards, moving through it, rather than spiraling down and crashing and just feeling crushed.
ANNA: And getting stuck! So, my oldest daughter and I talked about this so many times over the years, because she is a master storyteller. And, I mean, it’s a gift. It is a gift that she has and it is amazing. But sometimes, it gets the better of her, because sometimes she can spin this really intricate story about someone else or about a situation, and it ends up making her feel terrible. But in the end, it’s just a story. We’re making it up in our heads.
And I think once I realized that, I decided, if I’m going to make up a story, I’m going to make up a story that feels good, one that helps me feel connected, that helps me move forward as the person I want to be, which is exactly what you’re talking about.
So, I want to examine if my story spirals me into a place of being stuck, or if my story is lifting me. I may not understand all the pieces, but I can feel okay about the situation if I look at it this way, and that helps me move forward as the person I want to be. And like we’ve talked about before, there are situations sometimes where I can get some clarifying information so that I can get a more accurate picture, because maybe there’s someone else involved and I can stop putting words in their mouth and actually figure it out.
But other times, like you said, it really isn’t even possible. When it’s not possible, I just always want to choose the story that feels better, because it’s just as likely to be true as the one that doesn’t. And so, I’m just wasting the time in this moment feeling bad about something when I really don’t even know the full story. And so, that’s why I love that you tied it into self-care, because that’s exactly what it is. It really is just this intentional choice to look at what’s in front of me and find a story that feels good.
And again, it’s not about pushing the other things aside. It’s not about pretending that things didn’t happen or changing the story. It’s just intentionally using language that makes me feel good about what’s happening around me. So, for me, if it’s a particularly challenging or difficult situation, it’s not about pretending that the difficult situation didn’t happen, but I look for, how have I moved through it? Look at the amazing support I’ve received from the people around me. Look at how loved I am because they’ve helped me through this situation. Look at what I’ve learned about myself from it.
Whatever the situation, I can always find a way to frame it to use what can be a challenging situation to make myself feel better and to move forward from there. And so, that’s also an empowerment piece, knowing that I can turn these situations that can completely derail me into situations that just boost me forward and allow me to be around the people that I love and to connect with the people that lift me up.
PAM: Yes. And another layer that I think would be helpful for people to peel back, and I am still peeling this layer back, but, why is our tendency to take on that weight? Why does it feel like the more positive spin or the silver lining is it cheat? It really is not. And we can do that work to peel back those layers and to realize that these are all stories, they are all versions of the truth. They could absolutely all be true.
ANNA: And I think this part is related to the stories handed to us by society. Things like, life is suffering. Only hard work pays off. Relationships are hard. And so, when you find this cheat, you’re like, “Wait a minute. Maybe it doesn’t have to be this hard. Maybe I can be enjoying it,” but then you might try to stop yourself. Like, “What? But we’ve been told that forever!”
But no, set that aside, because we don’t have to make situations more difficult. There’s going to be plenty of things in life to work through, but when you can find joy, when you can switch that focus, see the light, find the gifts in the situation, life is just so much more enjoyable. But we do have to shed some of those stories from society, some of those stories from even other people in our lives, in order to create what feels good for us.
PAM: Yeah, I love that. I mean, “Life is hard.” Don’t we hear that all the time? But then, if we tell a different story, the reaction can often be like, “Well, you’re a Pollyanna. You’re not seeing the truth.” Another story. Right? It is just so useful to work through all of that.
Now, you and I have both heard, “You guys are always so positive,” and people think it’s weird at first, which is okay, because it’s part of the process of peeling back those layers and understanding that our stories are ours to tell and there’s more than one way to tell the story. We don’t always have to take the negative, life-is-hard bent on it.
ANNA: Right. And the reason I’m telling the story is for me. It’s not to put on a show or make anything look different for somebody else from the outside. It’s because it helps me be the person I want to be.
It helps me in my relationships. I remember one time somebody said to me, “I get it now. I get that you’re not just a Pollyanna about life. It’s that it helps you have these relationships. It helps you move through these situations.” And I’m like, “Yes, that’s absolutely it.” I’m not thinking about anybody else’s reaction to me choosing joy or finding light in a moment, because that’s my internal work.
Now, I’m understanding that it can come across that way as people are listening to it, but I’m like, “Oh, no, no, no. This is just a tool.” It’s a tool that helps me connect with people. It helps me move through my days in a way that feels better to me. And it’s just a choice. And I think if somebody wants to play around with it, they can see how it feels for them, too.
PAM: Exactly. Exactly. And I find it helps me be more creative. It helps me come up with more possibilities. And that’s the thing. You can try it out for a while and you see how it goes. And I do suspect you’ll start to see things that wouldn’t have happened in the other mindset.
ANNA: Yeah, it’s really true. And I do think it’s so interesting and we definitely get feedback about that.
I mean, I definitely get that. “You’re always looking on the bright side!” And I’m like, I feel all the things, but it’s just, again, those stories we create, it impacts how we move forward. It impacts how we see all the things around us.
So, let’s talk about some questions you might want to ponder for this week as you explore the idea of stories. First, what story are you holding onto about yourself, your partner, and your family? And that’s a lot. So, that one may take a few minutes, because we have stories that have been handed us from childhood and on. So, there’s a lot of stories there.
Where are the stories coming from, from your parents during childhood, from outside voices of society, somewhere else? Identifying where, I think, is so key to realizing and taking your power back there, to realize, I don’t need to own their story. That story’s not about me at all.
And so, do you see the story in your self-talk and how else might you tell that story? Self-talk again, it’s kind of this bugaboo that we’re unsure about. How do we change it? But I think the first step, don’t you think, is just identifying it, just recognizing it as a story.
PAM: Yes. Recognizing it as a story and, like in the previous question, where did that story come from? Is it really my story or is it something that I’ve absorbed over the years? It’s someone else’s view that I’ve adopted because they can really feel like that’s our story, That’s our self-talk, because we should be more productive, we should be efficient. “I should be able to do this quickly,” or, “I shouldn’t be so sensitive.” There are just so many stories that we’ve absorbed over time that are really somebody else’s view. And to check in and start asking ourselves and see, well, does that make sense to me? Do I feel sensitive all the time? What’s wrong with being sensitive? There are just so many questions and layers do with that.
ANNA: And you know I love, who would I be without that story? So, feel that. Who would I be without telling that story about I’m so sensitive or I can’t get anything done whatever the thing is that people have handed to us. So, yeah, so interesting.
And finally, how does it feel to realize that you get to craft your own story? And so, I think it, I think that may take a minute, because it’s just realizing, Okay, do I get to write it? Because I think, again, some people think it’s a cheat. But it’s like, no, you really do. You really get to pick the things that you like and craft that as your own personal story, even when there’s tragedy, even when there are bad things that have happened. There are things to look at that we can just say, yeah, but this is who I want to be and this is how I went through those tough times, and this is what was surrounding me during that. And so, that we can hold onto that part of the story as well.
PAM: Yeah, and I think that’s one of the big things that I want to share with people is that these are true moments. This isn’t stuff that we’re making up. We’re not saying, ignore all this hard stuff that’s going on around you.
It’s, as you said, a tool that can be helpful in moving through those seasons, moving through those emergency moments, all those pieces. For me, it is so incredibly helpful for me to move out of that fight or flight tunnel, which can be super helpful in the moment. But we get stuck there so easily. This is a tool that really helps me move through that. I just find it’s become such a useful tool, because I know I’m more creative on the other side. I move through things with more grace and just more compassion and kindness for other people that are involved when I can help myself with this tool move beyond that tunnel vision and the that whole fight flight emergency response when things go wrong. That’s helped me.
ANNA: It will be fun to see what people bring up about stories. So, thank you so much for listening and we hope to see you next time. So, take care. Bye-bye.
PAM: Bye, everyone.
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We are so excited to be participating in The Unschooling Summit again this year!
We participated last year and it was such a wonderful event that we want to make sure people know it’s happening again this year.
To that end, we asked Summit hosts Esther Jones and Melissa Crockett-Joyoue if they’d be up to join us to talk about it!
The Details
Join other parents from around the world for three days of inspiration and community at The Unschooling Summit. This free virtual event will feature 90+ unschooling experts and advocates.
You’ll have access to interviews with some of the top experts and advocates in the field of unschooling and self-directed learningYou can take part in live roundtables with seasoned unschooling parents discussing some of the most important topics that come up for unschooling families (teens, neurodivergent children, self-care, community etc)You can attend live, interactive workshops You can connect with other parents in community networking sessionsYou can join a closed Facebook group and connect with other parents from around the world who are exploring a different path with their childrenWhether you’re curious about how unschooling could work for your family, looking for support on your journey or keen to delve into how unschooling can be a tool for social change and personal growth, there will be plenty there for you!
The Unschooling Summit takes place online from March 20th-22nd, 2026.
You can get your free ticket here!
Note that that’s an affiliate link and you help support Living Joyfully when you use it. Thank you!
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To finish off our month-long celebration of 10 years of Exploring Unschooling, we’re sharing another On the Journey episode! We had a rich conversation with Living Joyfully Network member and long-time unschooling mom Erin Rosemond. Erin is a mom of four grown children living in Canada. She writes about home education on her blog Ever Learning, co-hosts The Virtual Kitchen Table podcast, and offers mentorship and facilitation for families and individuals.
We talked about developing self-awareness on the unschooling journey and how it leads to a beautiful place of authenticity. Erin shared about how her ability to advocate for her children strengthened over the years. We also dove into the path from attachment parenting to unschooling and how focusing on the relationships we have with our children has been the thread that connects it all.
It was a really lovely discussion and we hope you find it helpful!
Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube.
THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODEEpisode 285, Unschooling Stories with Erin Rosemond
Find Erin’s work at her website, https://www.everlearning.ca/
We invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network, a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents. It’s a non-judgmental space where you can steep in these unconventional ideas around parenting, relationships, and learning, and explore what they might look like day-to-day in your uniquely wonderful family. We offer a free month trial so you can see if it’s a good fit for you. Click here to join us.
Sign up to our mailing list on Substack to receive our email newsletters as well as new articles about learning, parenting, and so much more!
Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about exploring unschooling and navigating relationships.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPTPAM: Hello everyone, I am Pam Laricchia from Living Joyfully and I’m joined by my co-host Anna Brown and Erika Ellis, as well as our guest today, Erin Rosemond.
So this month, we have been reflecting back on 10 years of the podcast, exploring what we’ve learned, what’s changed, and what still matters. And we are thrilled to have Erin join us to continue the conversation.
We’re going to dive into these three questions with her and I am very excited to hear her thoughts. And if you don’t yet know Erin, she is a long time unschooling parent known online as EverLearning. She co-hosts the podcast, Virtual Kitchen Table, where they share experiences and ideas about family life and unschooling.
And she’s been a long time member of the Living Joyfully Network, which we so, so appreciate. If you would like to hear more about her unschooling journey, I spoke with her back in episode 285 of this podcast, and she shared some wonderful insights. So I do encourage you to go back and listen to that episode.
But to get us started today, Erin, we’re just going to dive right in. What’s one of the most impactful things you’ve learned on your unschooling journey?
ERIN: So, I looked at this question, and it’s such a challenging question, but in a good way. Because there are so many impactful parts, it’s crazy how impactful it is. And I feel like when you talk to other people who are following this path and doing things this way, that’s one of the things that they say is that they couldn’t possibly have imagined how much impact it would have in so many different areas. So yeah, so I was like, oh, where to begin?
I had a few different words come to mind. The first word that came to mind was authenticity. And maybe I’ll end up touching on that. And then it got me thinking about the idea of emotional maturity. And that kind of wove me around to where I think I’ve landed at the moment, which is just – self-awareness. And so if I’m understanding the question properly, because I guess I’m thinking about certainly the impact on me, but I also think that’s very impactful on our children, and just generally the people in our lives.
And I think that probably isn’t something that I had thought about at the beginning. I think most people probably don’t. Even before school age, coming from more of an attachment parenting, conscious parenting paradigm, that was just about my baby, right?
That was about what felt best. You’re operating with what seems to be the kindest, most practical way to parent, and you’re not really thinking a lot about self-awareness. But of course, that’s developing along the way. We do all that early reading, and then it just, I know different people come to this path from different directions, but I think I pipelined in through attachment parenting more than anything.
So really, it was just gradual. Continuing to read, continuing to talk to people, hear other people’s experiences, trial and error for myself. And then it gets to a point where you realize, if you’re going to parent in this really respectful way, it’s actually quite hard. It feels like it shouldn’t be hard, but it really kind of rubs up against a lot of what we’ve been taught, what we’ve learned, sometimes what society values and promotes.
I just think you end up doing so much self-reflection, because you bump up against these things, and you think, okay, well, what would the conventional response be. It might be taking a privilege away, or it might be controlling this or controlling that. And it’s really hard to be in a respectful relationship with somebody when you’re controlling them. And it’s kind of arbitrary.
I mean, of course, as parents, we sometimes have to safeguard things. I’m not suggesting otherwise. But I think it’s that word arbitrary, where we’re just deciding that there’s a different standard because they’re children. And so I think that the amount of self-awareness that we have to develop is actually mind blowing.
Because it’s not just about how they learn or our interactions, there’s a ripple effect. They bring in friends, or kids are adults now. So they bring in partners or spouses, and you just have this circle of people that if you want to remain in good relationship with your kids, which I do, you need to think about how do I want to respond in this moment? And what do I want this memory to be like for them, you know?
I feel like I have so much more I can say about this, but maybe I’ll just leave it there for a minute. Yeah, it’s just that ability now, I think, to stop and pause before responding, and just imagine all the different ways there are to do something and to think about something. And if I’m having a certain feeling about that, what’s that about? Just getting curious about that. Yeah, like I said, I’ve got a lot, but I’ll stop for now.
PAM: Yeah. Okay, I’ll pick up first. Oh, my goodness. I love that that is what you picked. And like you said, there are just so many aspects. One, that bubbled up, is the hard work piece.
We’ve talked before on the podcast and network. Do I put in the effort, the work, the engagement beforehand, having the self-awareness to figure something out, right? Or do I choose that it’s going to happen after, if things break down? When we want to put the relationship first, and then we need to repair, because we didn’t put in a lot of the time upfront to look at everybody’s perspective. How do I feel in this moment? What does that mean about me?
That’s the whole self-awareness piece. And then being open to other people’s self-awareness, and not even defining it, other people’s choices, other people’s agency, how other people are seeing this moment, right? So we’ve talked about that piece.
So, that’s part of the question. But I love even more depth, that’s a choice. And often, we forget about considering, because maybe the relationship breakdown happens a day or two later, right? The next time we try to engage more deeply, and they brush us off, because they’re still upset about what we did two days ago. And that’s when you realize, so it’s hard, it can be hard to connect those two pieces.
But even regardless of that, where you got to the authenticity, where you started, showing up in the moment as the person you want to be, as Anna talks about quite a bit, it’s self-awareness. It’s just interwoven with that so intricately, because how can we know who we want to be when we show up in the moment, unless we understand ourselves.
I feel like I learned that from watching my kids when they came home, because they could show up more authentically, because they hadn’t absorbed quite as many of the conventional messages yet. Those messages that say, when this happens, you do this. And when in this situation, you do this. And when somebody else does this to you, you do this, you know, we have absorbed so many of those cultural messages in how we’re supposed to respond.
And we’re often with great intentions raised by parents who are telling us, in this situation, you do this, or I want you to do this, remember that. It’s something new for us, I think. And that’s why I find what you’re saying about this self-awareness piece being such a huge and impactful part of the journey and realizing it’s understanding ourselves.
And then I think through understanding ourselves, we recognize how different we are, how different other people are, and then realizing, oh, geez, everybody has got a unique perspective. And then like you said, then you have more and more people joining the family community. And then it’s just more and more perspectives.
But that we, at least for me so far, find I get to enjoy the moments more when I’ve done that work or understand people, because I can be more present in them versus part of my mind thinking, but in this situation, we should each be doing XYZ. And I’m trying to prod people, even gently, to do the right thing, etc. So I loved your answer.
ERIN: Well, and something, Pam, just when you were bringing the word authenticity back into it, I think too, there are always things that I’m realizing that I’m working on, always. And right now, it’s with the self-awareness, I feel like in an intentional way, my reaction time is very slow at this point. I take my time. I sit with things, whether it’s decisions or things are happening. And so, yeah, my reactions are now very slow, they’re careful.
And so, I think for me, the figuring out right now, then is also that authenticity piece. So how do I show up as myself, and also give my kids and anybody else in my life, that space of non-judgment. So I’m not sure if that’s making sense, but it’s just a little bit of a piece that I’m sitting with right now. I think I’ve gotten pretty, I wouldn’t say I’m comfortable with it, but I’m committed to it.
Pretty comfortable being committed to leaving a lot of space, having that slow reaction time, leaving lots of room for the different things that my family members do, right? But the piece I’m still sitting with is how authentic am I being here? Or I’m still trying to figure out, where is the space for me?
And nobody is stopping me from being in there, but I’m still just figuring that out, right? Nobody’s pushing me back, it’s just me figuring it out for me.
ERIKA: I think that makes a lot of sense, and it’s so interesting. It’s bringing up a lot of different thoughts for me, but really, everyone who’s on this type of journey, it makes sense that eventually we get to a place like what you’re describing, where it’s like, who am I really? How does that fit in, because our intention from the beginning and how a lot of us came to the journey was we wanted to give our children the space to be themselves.
And I think in many cases, that means we are taking a step back from asserting ourselves, in order to give them the space to really be true to themselves. And then it’s that pendulum swing that we talk about. But I’m still here, and what is the life that I want to lead look like in connection? And with all these new people coming into your life as well, it just gets more and more complicated.
But I just love that deep work. And I think it’s kind of unavoidable. Because we’re not okay with just pushing through our agenda. And I don’t care if you’re upset, that has never felt okay to me as a parent. And so I’m going to have to confront whatever the things are that come up for me, in order to be the parent and the person that I want to be in that relationship. And so learning about myself just has to happen along that journey. And I think it is so impactful.
ANNA: I think what stood out for me, there were a couple things, but that piece of, it is unavoidable. I think if you’re really showing up with the intention to recognize how we’re showing up in those moments. And I think that’s so interesting, because that piece of thinking it’s hard. What I found was that the interactions with the kids weren’t hard, because they’re so authentic. It was that piece that when it’s bumping up, wait, wait, why is it bumping up? What’s happening? That means slowing myself down, then figuring out what is coming up in me.
And that was hard, because I had to look at where did that come from? Why is it impacting me in this moment? Why am I wanting to control or change this?
Because I think in some ways, maybe it is an easier path. I don’t know, kind of like you said, Pam, the back end’s hard, but it can feel easier to just push whatever the agenda is. But the big difference is exactly what you’re talking about, the self awareness, because you can’t really do that.
If you’re self aware, you can’t really push your agenda onto somebody else. If you’re thinking, wait a minute, what’s happening here? I think that is a deep, rich part of the journey, and it’s amazing and ongoing.
ERIN: Wait, this is not something that you learn one time, and then you’re done? And just if I could say one more thing on this question, just the amount that I’ve learned about myself from noticing or listening to my kids’ reactions to me or the way that they come with the question, is huge.
And just to give an example, I think I might have shared it in the Network, actually, a few years ago, but it was just around Christmas presents.And one of my guys came to me with what felt like a very rehearsed sort of speech when you’re trying to launch a marketing thing forward. But anyway, he had this rehearsed set of reasons for his request. He knew he was getting a camera, he was starting to do some wildlife photography. And he had this really well rehearsed set of reasons that it would be great for him to have that camera before Christmas and open it before Christmas.
And he was really pleasant about it. But it was almost like, let me get this all out. I’m just going to explain to you where I’m coming from here. And I sat with it later. And I was like, wow, he put a lot of effort into something that was just about a Christmas present. Because it didn’t really matter that much to me.
But then when I peel back a little bit, because I said, that’s fine. But then I did kind of reflect about how I was feeling about it. And I thought, no, you know what, I think I have been more tradition-oriented around Christmas morning. And I think a lot of that too, was an aspect of his particular personality that maybe we had a bit of a rub where when he was a kid who wanted to know, what’s happening for my birthday? two months ahead. And so, there was always a bit of a need to slow down, you need to learn self control, like this kind of stuff, right. And so it just, yeah, it kind of made me peel back a little bit and think about, what are the signs that he’s seen of that through the years?
Or what are the things I’ve said or done? And it’s just a small, benign example. But I’ve had those things happen with probably more important things too, where I just go, okay, the fact that they’re asking it this way. Or the fact that this already went through my husband, who didn’t know about it. And something’s already been installed. That gives me a clue.
We can kind of use these things to kind of get a clue about how we come across to other people. That reflection helps us learn so much about ourselves, like right to that self awareness. Our kids are lovely mirrors that way. I mean, it may not be fun in the moment or whatever.
But it really is so valuable and interesting, to just take a moment to look at what might that say about me and how I’m being in the world around them, etc. And it’s because it’s often something that I had never even thought of as a thing. It’s just a habit or just just a way.
But to be able to reflect and find those pieces and go, oh, that’s interesting. And just be more self aware, learn more about it. It doesn’t mean changing or anything. But more self awareness that we can bring to a moment. So very cool.
ERIKA: I love that story, they shine these little spotlights on our different things. We don’t even realize they are even a belief or whatever. And I love that. So my question to you, Erin, is what has changed over the course of your journey?
ERIN: Again, another big, big question. So I mean, obviously, lots of things have changed. I guess I’ll go back to myself again, because I think this is really the theme, right?
So much of it is about how we interact in these relationships. I think, well, probably one really obvious, well, it might not be obvious to somebody newer, but I think for lots of people, you quickly realize that your reasons, your ideas about learning and like, that’s just the tip of the iceberg. And so I think what’s changed is that I think about things in a much broader way than just, learning to read or learning to I don’t know, what are all the things people worry about standing in line? All the things people get concerned about.
And so it just becomes so much broader than that. But then I think, to kind of bring it back to this theme of self awareness, I think what’s really changed is my willingness to put my kids first. I don’t know, there’s something about advocacy, I think that’s coming up. I think I struggled for a long time to put my kids first in the face of, let’s say they were part of a club or lessons or something like that. And it’s not that I didn’t put them first, but I’ve become much, it’s become much easier for me. So I’m just thinking about everything from things that didn’t make sense in college residence to lessons my kids have done where something just kind of hits or rubs the wrong way.
And I think where I used to probably indirectly try to steer them toward it not being so big of a conflict, I’m much more comfortable now, just going and talking to somebody, or helping them. I mean, they’re older now. So I’m not doing as much of that, but just even helping them with the language to go talk to somebody. I remember when I joined the network, maybe when I took the course, the Childhood Redefined, my kids were already getting older. My oldest guy was probably 20 at that time.
But I think what I was noticing in myself is that there was this, we talked a lot about quitting and letting kids change their mind and do new things. And I didn’t have a problem with that in the way that a lot of people do. I saw the value in them trying different things. That wasn’t the issue for me. The issue was around not hurting the coaches feelings, or not causing conflict with another family that we were friends with, because they didn’t want to be doing the activity with them.
For some people, that would be very simple. But for for me, it’s taken me a lot of work to do that kind of thing. So I think for me, it’s just how much more quickly I can be in my kid’s corner, in a really more concrete way than I used to be able to.
I think I’ll just say one more thing about that, too. I think, as my kids got older, I realized that a lot of the people, if you think about naysayers, for example, with homeschooling and unschooling, those people don’t always stay in your life. Your neighbors move. We’ve had relatives actually pass away, a lot of the people that you’re hearing all these messages from, whether it’s quitting, or making sure to stick with a musical instrument, or all these different things. At the end of the day, it’s my child that I need to continue that relationship with.
ANNA: I love that piece. And I feel like what’s interesting about that is, I feel like our kids really lead the way, because all of us here have come through school, and often, more school and more school. And I think we’re culturally conditioned to think about those things, and to worry about those things, make sure we’re fitting in and make sure things are fine.
And I feel like my kids would have these really authentic reactions, recognizing that this environment doesn’t feel good, or I don’t like the way this is happening. And I remember reflecting when they were younger, that I had those thoughts as a kid, but I didn’t ever say them. Or there was nobody listening to me.
And so it was interesting to just really see that. And of course, like you’re saying, that’s the relationship that’s so important to me. But I remember having to consciously have that thought of – this is the person I care about.
I mean, now, 20 years later, I can’t even remember who those instructors are, or whatever but they’re not in my life. But my children are still in my life. But I remember having to consciously have that thought to reorient myself, because that cultural conditioning was so strong.
I just really identify with that one as well.
ERIKA: Yeah, the expectations, the external feeling of being judged or feeling that I wouldn’t have been allowed to just leave this activity. And so I don’t have any experience with how to have that more difficult conversation. How do you bring up things that are a little bit surprising to people in the mainstream, but I think when you have kids who are so used to being true to themselves, and listening to what works for them, there’s not really another option, we just are going to have to grow into being confident enough to do that.
And I feel like I’m still definitely in the middle of that journey. Because my kids haven’t really wanted to do that many activities and are kind of branching out more and more as they become teenagers. And so I’m being put into those positions now of, okay, this conversation feels hard to me.
But it is possible to have respectful interactions with the people at these lessons or whatever the things are, and still say, and we’re not going to continue. And that’s okay, we can make that choice.
PAM: Yeah, I found looking to my kids to be so useful. Because at first, I didn’t even realize how much work I did to fit in growing up.
It was just a given. This is school, this is your like, extracurricular activity, this is how we behave and what we do at these things. And I just wanted to do it right, right?
So, it wasn’t until my kids would be like, oh no, I want to quit. And same with you, Erin, it was pretty easy to quit the thing. But I was holding back, because at first, I could feel myself wanting to explain the broader picture and why.
One of my childhood memories is trying to do that with my brother. I guess I was babysitting, and my parents had gone out and they said, he can go out and play once he’s finished cleaning his room. But he didn’t want to clean his room. And I’m sitting there in his room on his bed, like, just do it, it’ll take five minutes.
But oh my gosh, now I look back and go, wow. Wow, what a different mindset, that I could not just stand up to that or push back at that age, because like Anna said, whether it was I wasn’t comfortable, or not being heard or listened to. I would just be told I was wrong, or the right way to do it, etc. So, for me, that was one of the big changes that was like the water I was swimming in that I didn’t even realize was water, you know what I mean? It was just part of my ethos.
I remember it was quitting swimming when the kids first came home, it’s like, Oh, okay, we’ll go and blah, blah, blah. And after two lessons, they’re like, No, thank you. But I had all this justification going on in my head at first. Oh, but they’ve got lots of people to manage. That’s why you need to do it this way, you know.
But because I had started looking to my kids, and really, well, of course, this isn’t a good fit for them. Of course, I am now seeing them all day and how they move through the world. And recognizing that fit, or lack thereof, was now just so much more obvious.
But it’s been layer upon layer upon layer, from the quitting right through all these more intricate pieces that are part of our days, and still learning. Well, I think it’s part of where maybe that word authenticity comes back into it just, it does feel so relieving. So if there’s so much relief, and it does feel so much more authentic to just, just do what the kids are actually feeling rather than try to either control them or over explain to whoever else is involved in the situation.
And I do think they have more practice with that. It’s always fascinating to me how I’ve thought about this before how our intention goes so far, because they often are able to do things that we are still struggle with. They often don’t have hang ups that we still have. But somehow, just our intention and then being in a different environment really makes quite a significant difference.
ANNA: It really does. Just being able to ask for what they need. I think that does come from the environments we created where we’re listening to everybody and where we’re trying to figure out the solutions that work. They go in, I don’t know, and some people, I think, feel like it’s naivete when they go into the world. But what I’ve seen is that they change things, right?
They have different conversations that we weren’t able to have, they change the environments that they go into. It’s empowering. And it’s really interesting.
I love that. So my question, which I think is also very big, is what still matters? What things have been kind of a through line for you, or things that you really feel like, yeah, that’s still important. That still matters to me.
ERIN: This one was actually the one that came to mind the easiest. And I think the through line is that relationship. Because that was from the first days of having a baby, that was what just stood out to me was just having this relationship and this connection. And I think understanding pretty early on, and I didn’t understand it until I had a baby, but realizing within the first couple of weeks that there was going to be a certain amount of that I would have to do differently than I had understood in order to have a relationship with this baby that I wanted to have.
I was telling somebody a story the other day that very, very shortly before I had my first baby, I had been working with young kids. So, I’d often be in their homes, maybe three and four year olds. And quite a few of those families were large families, and they often had a baby or a toddler. And I would be in these houses. And over and over again, I’m seeing that the baby is sleeping in the parents room, or there’s a crib or there’s a cradle in the room. And I remember saying to a friend of mine, I don’t know what’s going on with these families. They all have these babies in their rooms.
And I just thought it was like the strangest thing. And then I had a baby. I understand this now.
And so it feels like maybe sleeping doesn’t have that much to do with this. But I think it’s where I started is just listening to that need, wanting, realizing that if I wanted to have that relationship, I needed to have that closeness, right. And so I think that of course, that follows through childhood.
And then I think, again, there’s been a lot of learning for me. These last few years of what that can look like, past 18, or past 20, or whatever. That when I say I want to have a relationship, I don’t mean that I want to be in more of a relationship than they want to be. It’s not about pushing myself into it, or not being able to let go or whatever.
But whatever that looks like with each of them, I want that to be respectful. And so I think that really has been the through line for me, even in those areas that I find more difficult, which would be conflict, or people pleasing, or I’m not exactly sure what the word is, but that’s definitely been trickier for me. But that’s the piece that helps me override it.
Even just the decision not to put them in school, it would have been so much easier for me, I would have had so many fewer people to argue, not argue with, but defend myself from if I had just put them in school. I could say that about any of that stuff, right, about attachment parenting, it’s not just the school piece. It is really that overriding, just determination to be in a respectful relationship that lets me jump over that last hump of hopefully doing what’s going to be in service to that relationship rather than please somebody else or not look weird, or any of those things. Because I’m past that. So I can rest in the weirdness now.
PAM: I will say I love just that focus on the relationship. And I remember one of the shifts for me, an aha moment that took a weight off. Because certainly my kids were in school for a while before I discovered homeschooling and unschooling. And I thought this is what we have to do. And it was so empowering when they came home.
But okay, they’re not going to school, how do I replace that? What am I doing instead? Right? So, the shift to recognizing childhood does not just equal school, in whatever form, whether it’s homeschooling, or school school, to recognize that our relationships are lifelong. And that childhood is just a part of it. A lovely, lovely part of it. But our relationships last forever. And school is just kind of this blip, right, that may or may not be part of our lives. And the weight when I could just focus on the relationship, and that this is just a continuous thing.
For those of us with kids as adults, there wasn’t a day where things shifted. Right? There wasn’t everybody waiting for this moment when we listened to some of our podcast episodes about the independence agenda and turning 18. Our relationships continued.
And like you’ve been saying this whole time, Erin, the self awareness, we continue to grow, we continue to change and develop and learn more about each other. And then when you’re mixing people in, that’s the relationship through line. It always has our focus. It’s not like I figured out relationships, and now I just do it. It’s forever learning, right?
ERIKA: I love, I mean, obviously, we talk a lot about that focus on relationships and how that’s a through line. And I think it’s interesting to think about how that really does lead to all the other aha moments that we have. If I am trying to be in a good relationship with my child, I’m going to listen to them. If I’m listening to them, I’m going to learn about the things that are important to them.
And then I’m not going to brush those off, I’m going to take it seriously and get involved in it with them. And so everything builds from there, as long as we keep coming back to how’s our relationship feeling? What is the thing that’s going to strengthen that relationship? And that leads us to people are different, it leads us to what is this bringing up for me? Why are my triggers different from their triggers? And all the learning comes from that. And for me, it was the same where it was like having the baby and being like, oh, you know, and just all the aha moments, all those like, this baby is not like me, I thought they would be like me, and they’re not. It’s just such an amazing journey. From that point.
ANNA: My path began with attachment parenting, too. And then we had this added layer of medical crisis at the beginning. The piece of that that I’m grateful for was it really honed us in on all that matters is this baby and this relationship. And all of that other stuff is just noise.
So, it did make it feel so much easier to make the decisions and to put school into perspective, to put these other things into perspective. Because that was the priority. It is hard to explain until you see it. I was around a lot of kids before having kids and did a lot of work with kids. But it is different. And the things you were talking about too, Erika, you really get a sense of, this is my child. And they’re very different. It’s not just these other kids that are different. Everyone is so unique, and all of these different brains.
That, to me, was part of the fun of it. That discovery and understanding, but that through line of the relationship has served me so much as well, because it’s just that North Star. It’s remembering to ask, how is what I’m doing going to impact the relationship? I think about that a lot. And it really helps me in making decisions along the way.
ERIN: Just something else that just came to mind for me about relationships, is the distinction between relationship and connection. Because I think I read a lot or hear a lot of people talking about connection, connecting with your kids. And I definitely think it’s important to connect with our kids. But I think the relationship is different, because it’s overarching. It takes time to build a relationship with somebody. It takes situations and it takes experiences together.
And I think within that broader relationship, there are periods of time where we are more or less connected with a child, maybe a particular child or children. And I think sometimes that’s just a developmental stage, too. Something that they’re going through, or maybe, maybe it’s us, right? Maybe it’s something or our schedules just aren’t aligning in the same way.
So, I can look back through the years and see, almost eras of time that I was particularly connected with one or another. Maybe I had a really common interest. So we were doing a lot of this together. And I was maybe, not intentionally disconnected, but just the way things were going a little bit less connected with somebody else.
Or maybe through some of those like adolescent or teen years. I think the idea of kids needing to individuate to a degree, they need to figure out who they are, and who their identity is. So I do think sometimes in unschooling conversations, we can get a little bit overloaded with this, keeping connected, keeping connected. And sometimes kids, they float around, and maybe we do, too.
And so that’s been kind of fun to see that the relationship is still there. And I go through periods of time where I feel like there’s a real commonality or connection with a kid or two, and then maybe not so much, but it just comes around, I think, when you have that foundation.
ANNA: I liked how you said that. It reminds me when you spoke a little bit earlier about us with adult children, how it looks different, right? It’s not like we’re forcing this relationship on them but it’s there. And there are times where they’re off doing their thing. And we aren’t as connected with the day to day or the little nuances or intricacies. And then there’s times where it’s coming back. But I think, because we’ve had this through line of the relationship, there’s a foundation there that’s just very much built on trust that we can come back and that it isn’t a problem to come back and we can circle back and we can change those pieces.
So, I really love that, because that just really resonated with my experience, too, that the connecting moments are a part of it, but the relationship is much broader.
ERIN:. I think there are periods of time where we have as our kids get older, but maybe even when they’re younger, where the relationship is more about sharing what we’re each doing in separate places. And then there are periods of time where we might really be into a common activity or a common zone with somebody.
And those feel different to me, right? One feels like coming together and each person is sharing how this is going for me. And this is what I’ve been up to, versus, other times, we’re in a real common context with somebody.
PAM: I want to comment just because it’s bringing up so many metaphors, because we’re reflecting back, right? And ideas that have really resonated with me over the years, like one that I feel like ties in there, Erin, is thinking of ourselves as a family of individuals.
That phrase really resonated with me and reminded me that we have seasons. I loved your word, eras. Eras, seasons, where maybe they’re super busy with this thing and so using connection itself as just one measure can get you off course, because it’s like, oh, we’re not literally spending X amount of time each week doing something together. And how you define it, depends on how you define connection.
And I love Anna, that you brought up trust instead, but relationship via another metaphor that really worked for me, works for me with relationship is thinking of it as a dance, the dance of a relationship, because I feel like sometimes someone’s leading, sometimes the other one is, sometimes you’re really connected, and you’re just moving together, because you’re doing things together, other times you are apart. And none of them are wrong.
If somebody’s asking for more, and, and more could be, it could be more time, it could be more, shared activities, or it could be, especially with kids, it could be more money for an activity that they’re super into right now, that handing over some money, so they can do the thing can be a super connecting activity.
But again, it depends on how you define connection, right? So I do love just focusing, that it can help to focus more on the relationship and looking at it through that lens, rather than trying to track the time, or using that to define your connection with them, that especially over the years, seasons, eras, all those bits.
All right, our last question, Erin, and just to say, you have been part of the Living Joyfully Network for years, actually, from the beginning, and we absolutely love having you there, and I do think like, Anna, myself, you, we all have adult children now, and I do think some people wonder why we continue to stay connected with unschooling and parenting communities, even though our kids are now all adults, and we’re not technically homeschooling, unschooling, etc. So I was just curious to hear your thoughts about that, what is it that draws you to continue talking about this stuff?
ERIN: Okay, I think it’s probably a couple of different things, and first is a lot of the things we’ve talked about. I find listening to other people’s experiences and thinking about different scenarios continues to help me self-reflect. I’ll hear an experience or a story, and I’ll think, oh, what would that have brought up if that had been my child, or it’s not even just children, if that had been my spouse, how would I feel about that?
I just think that there is incredible power in people working together. I think what it helps me get really clear about,there’s not like a set of rules, there’s not like a formula that we’re all trying to reach. It’s just putting it out there, getting perspectives. Sometimes people will circle back to something months later, so there’s just something that really makes sense for life, and I think that many people find this when they get to the point that their children are technically not school-age anymore.
We continue being in relationships, we continue learning, even that learning angle, continuing to be curious about things, and to continue going after things, and doing things that we enjoy. It just feels very inspiring to me, and so I think continuing to learn is a big part of it.
And then I also think that you develop relationships with people, and you want to see how people are doing, and how a particular child is doing. There was just a member that posted about a hockey piece, and I’m like, oh, I remember when he was just starting to get into that, and there’s just something really fun about that, to be able to see where people are going, and what their kids are up to.
The other piece for me that I think was originally, when I started writing my blog, for example, which was before the network opened, I just really see the value in home education. Not even, it doesn’t even necessarily have to be unschooling, but just in home education, and creating more opportunities, and more awareness, and just more conversation about it. So, the more people that I experience, and get to know, the more I see how I think it could be different. And I think to circle back to the self-awareness piece, I think this offers our children an opportunity to be quite self-aware.
How different could the world be, if people were, it’s almost like living with more of an abundance mindset, rather than a scarcity mindset. And that’s a little bit unusual, I think. I just see a lot of stuff, people grappling for stuff all the time. And I wonder, how does this happen?
And so, not that I think homeschooling is going to change the world, but, maybe a little bit. I feel like there could be some pieces there that, so I think I just, anything that I can do to be part of the conversation, or listen to other people, or share anything with other people, or just support things in ways that make sense, I just, I don’t know, it just feels like a good thing to be part of.
PAM: I agree very much. For me, it’s the inspiration piece. It’s the reminder to self-reflect, that’s important. And, for us, Anna and I talk a lot about relationships. And that just feels so powerful. And we were talking earlier about how these relationships are lifelong, right?
You’re talking about how homeschooling can change the world. I feel like relationships with children, authentic, actually respectful with agency, all those aspects of it, just make a world of difference in our relationship, in their lives, in our lives. And just having conversations with people about that, and the light bulb moments, yes, for them. But also, every time I try to share a story, or try to explain a thought, or an idea, I learn it a little bit deeper, right? There’s another layer of that infinite onion that maybe comes off. And again, more self-awareness.
Like we were saying, we’re growing and changing all the time. I find it so valuable to keep thinking about these ideas, and participating, and chatting with people who are curious about them. And with people who have been doing it for such a long time, and finding where we have common experiences, and finding those pieces that are unique to me. Back to the self-awareness piece, right? It’s fascinating and fun.
ERIKA: I feel like maybe going through school, we get a message of you’re just with this age group, and then that’s over, and then there’s this adult life. So, I think over this journey, we come to realize, we’re all just on this same journey, it’s all the same, it’s all life. And so there is no sense that I get in the network that someone with younger kids is the beginner, and the people with older kids are the experts. Because it just doesn’t work like that. The areas where I’m growing, I’m able to get feedback, inspiration, and information from other people.
And then things that I have already moved through, I’m able to share those experiences with other people. When we focus on relationships, and when we realize that life is just all learning all the way, we don’t stop learning. It just doesn’t make sense to leave, because it still is giving so much, wherever we are along our journey, or wherever we are with our kids, there’s just still so much to learn and to think about. I had another thought, but it is gone.
ANNA: If it comes back, then bring it up. But I’ll say, I feel like you hit on the two big ones for me too, Erin. That lifelong learning piece. I still learn so much every day from the network. Again, watching somebody move through a situation and wondering how that would land for me.
It’s feeling myself get activated when I read something and then go, okay, where’s that coming from, bringing some self awareness in there. I like those opportunities. I think being around a community of people who are intentional about and like to talk about the nuances is just so fun for me.
And I think for me, the other piece is kind of an advocacy piece. For me, it’s like you were saying, Pam, it’s about relationships. But I really have strong feelings about just how amazing kids are. And I love celebrating the hockey game and seeing them grow up because I get so invested in all the kids on the network.
But it’s also just knowing, it can be so much easier if we’re just communicating. We have new people that come in that have come from hard situations of burnout and other things. And then watching them just open to life feeling so beautiful, almost like, how can it be this great?! Yes, it can be that great. So there’s that kind of advocacy piece there of just wanting people to have that amazing feeling for this special time.
Because like you said earlier, Pam, I mean, childhood really is just a blip on the whole thing. And it does go so quickly. So, those are kind of the big pieces for me, but always, always learning for sure.
ERIN: Yeah, I feel like I need a little bit of a caveat just around the idea of homeschooling changing the world, because I know that not all homeschooling has been great for some people, and sometimes school does work really well. And it is a choice that people want to make. But I think just like you’re saying there, Anna, it’s just so exciting to be able to be part of seeing kids be who they are able to learn in the way that’s best for them and explore the different interests that they have. And yeah, so it’s whatever form that takes for people, but just having that kind of broadness and that choice.
ANNA: I agree! So many people still don’t know what’s an option, though. So I think it is an important piece, putting it out there. Just saying it can be possible. We like to talk about options and all that’s there. And I’m amazed that there really still are people that don’t have any understanding of home education and certainly not unschooling.
And so, yeah, I think that’s super valid. It’s not about that there’s one path, but gosh, here it is. And take a look, because even just understanding it allows you to bring a different energy, even if you stay in school, just understanding that there are options, understanding that there’s not the one right path just brings a different energy to all of those exchanges.
So yeah, I really do agree with that.
ERIKA: I remembered my last bit. I feel like life outside, if you look at the world as a whole, there’s a lot of stress. And I feel like I can get really overwhelmed with bad things or, it feels like there’s so much bad. And so to me, being connected to people in the network reminds me of these good things. It brings me back and grounds me back into what’s really important, like giving these kids space to be themselves.
It’s having these relationships and connections. And I think having it be global also, just gives me this kind of peaceful feeling. There are ripples coming out from all of these families and all of these intentional people, really putting in this work and trying to make the world a better place. And I know, for me personally, in my local community, I have seen my own ripples change things for people. And then I see it in all the other network members. That’s just a really cool thing about being in connection with people like that.
PAM: Yeah, I think it is. It is so fun and enlightening and inspiring. And I mean, can go on for another 20 minutes. But that piece that I find so interesting, because I think often, homeschooling is really a great place to meet people. Because kids going to school can be where the first big problems start to show up, right? If the classroom at school just doesn’t mesh with your child, it’s not a good fit for them.
And that’s a big time when we can start questioning things and trying to figure this out and trying to fit in all those pieces that come up and that can be kind of our first exposure to other paths. That is what happened for me and that is how I finally, eventually, discovered that homeschooling was a thing and that it was legal in Canada. And that was the start of my journey. And then, as we’ve been talking about this whole episode, learning and discovering the value of relationships, we see the journey happening with people in the network all the time.But when you are cultivating those stronger relationships and really respecting your child’s agency, and their choices and understanding them and their perspective, and I think then you can loop back there, definitely we have members who have a child or two that choose to go to school for a while or for a longer period of time. Because, as we were talking about earlier, school just becomes part of the landscape. That is a possible choice for someone.
It doesn’t affect our relationships, right? We can support them in that choice and in that exploration if they want to do that.Homeschooling is a beautiful door. I feel to bring people in, a reason to notice that something is up. And maybe I want to explore some different possibilities other than this one path that I know. Right?
And it’s just so fascinating for me to see over and over again, people coming and learning that bigger picture, that focus on relationships, really embracing, working together and living together as this family of individuals that we are. And then all these other choices come home and they don’t feel so confronting or judgmental or any of those pieces. It’s like, oh, yeah, okay, we can see how that fits in and that fits in. And it’s just so very beautiful.
All right, well, thank you so much, Erin, for joining us and sharing your reflections. I know it has been a deep, big month as we look back on all this, so we super appreciate you tackling these big questions with us.
ERIN: I just need to say thank you for inviting me. It was really nice. It was an honor to chat with you all again. So thank you.
PAM: Oh, it was so fun. So fun. Thank you.
And we want to say thank you to everybody listening, whether you’re listening in your podcast feed or watching on YouTube. We appreciate you joining us too. And we also invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network.
We offer a free month trial so you can just check it out and see if it’s a good fit for you. It is a great place to take the concepts that we talked about today and in the other 400-odd episodes and to dive deeper, exploring. To me, this is the difference.
With the podcast and these conversations, they really help more with my intellectual understanding. But I remember I was deep into forums and email lists at the time when I first discovered this. But it’s so helpful to have conversations to better figure out what it looks like day-to-day in your unique family. And to just see how many different unique families all over the world are making it work for themselves. There’s no one right way. There’s no one way that it’s supposed to look.
So those are the kind of conversations we love having. To learn more and join us, just follow the link in the show notes or go to our website livingjoyfully.ca and you’ll see Network up in the top menu. Wishing everyone a lovely day.
Thanks again, Erin.
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The Exploring Unschooling Podcast has now been around for over 10 years and 400 episodes! This month, we’re celebrating these huge milestones by looking back and reflecting on three big questions.
In Part 3 of our celebration, Pam, Anna, and Erika explore the question of what still matters over the course of the past 10 years. We talked about focusing on relationships, how there is no one path and no one right way, and how children are whole and capable people right now, not just adults in training.
We thank you so much for being a part of our Exploring Unschooling community and hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey and in your relationships!
Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube.
THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODEWe invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network, a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents. It’s a non-judgmental space where you can steep in these unconventional ideas around parenting, relationships, and learning, and explore what they might look like day-to-day in your uniquely wonderful family. We offer a free month trial so you can see if it’s a good fit for you. Click here to join us.
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EPISODE TRANSCRIPTANNA: Hello everyone, I’m Anna Brown from Living Joyfully and I’m joined today by my co-host Erika Ellis and Pam Laricchia. Hello!
I have really been enjoying this series reflecting back on 10 years of the podcast. So much has changed and yet the growth and learning continues. The podcast has been important to so many people and it’s always fun to hear how it’s touched them and many times changed the trajectory of their family. Similarly, the podcast has brought many amazing people to join us at the Living Joyfully Network.
It’s such a great place to take the concepts covered in the podcast and dive deeper, to be a part of the conversation. We love that. All three of us are active participants and we’re responding to questions, hosting calls, sharing our journey, learning and growing alongside all of the amazing families there and we would absolutely love for you to join us.
You can find out more information in the show notes or visit livingjoyfully.ca to learn more about joining. And we also have a free trial month, so you can check it out that way as well.
This week, the question that we’re going to be reflecting on is what still matters? And so Erika, would you like to get us started?
ERIKA: I would. When thinking about what still matters, I felt like we have to start with relationships. It’s something that I’ve heard you both say from the very beginning. Focus on our relationships with our children because when we start there, everything else falls into place.
If we make independence our focus or academic skills our focus, we lose sight of the unique child in front of us and our relationships can be harmed. When I first came to unschooling, I was pretty preoccupied with the idea of passing skills along to my kids. It just seemed like that would be my most important role, especially since we weren’t putting them into school.
Like how will they get by as functioning adults without these skills? And so I had this desire to make sure they weren’t “falling behind” or that they would be keeping up with the kids who had gone to school. I think it’s a common fear when we’re choosing an alternative path.
But through time and observation, I really have come to believe that we can’t force people to learn anything. And I could see that putting that agenda onto my kids and pushing them to pay attention to this certain thing or pushing them to independently do something that they’re not ready to do. It just caused them to push back against me and that affected our relationship.
And so the work that I do now as a parent has so much more to do with our relationship than anything else, which I think would have surprised younger me. That cultural idea that we have to mold our children into who they should be. But it’s just not about that at all for me anymore.
It’s more about the things we talk about here, like building trust with them by being trustworthy, leaving space for them to learn in their own way, being accountable and making repairs with them if we have any kind of a rift and really being curious about who they are in the moment as unique individuals. And learning facts and skills can come when it’s time. I’ve seen that happen over and over.
I may worry, if someone’s not reading yet or they’re not interested in learning how to tell time. That was a real one for me. Or to tie their shoes. But our children will come across all the things that are the most important to learn because they’re actually important in their lives. And every brain is different. Every person has their own path and those skills come.
Sometimes it even feels kind of magical, but it doesn’t happen by force, at least not with my kids. Learning happens when the context is right and their desire is there. And so by focusing instead on our relationships, we create a space for them to process with us when things come up. We let them know that we’re there for them no matter what. There’s not this expectation that their lives look a certain way. We support them as who they are in each moment.
And I see that focus on that relationship pay off when my teens now come to me to process their fears or their goals or their relationship struggles or anything else. They know that I don’t have this image in mind of them that they’re not living up to. They know that we are all just humans learning, growing on our own paths, but we’re in relationship together.
And I think that the skills they learn doing that are actually so much more valuable than the academic skills. Those relationship skills and the communication skills will serve them for the rest of their lives. So I try to think to myself, as I remember Anna saying so many times, is what I’m about to do going to help my relationship with my child or harm it?
And making the relationship-strengthening choices over and over pays off. It’s like a good north star for me to aim towards. And of course, not perfectly, since that’s not possible, as I’ve talked about before.
PAM: Oh, I love that so much! And you know what, I love how over these three episodes as we’ve been reflecting back through various questions, how much relationships bubble up as part of the things that we’ve learned. Things that have shifted for us and that’s what really still matters. Because that fundamentally, like you said Erika, the learning happens.
The skills and the facts happen. An early realization for me was, well, if they don’t come across it in their life to want to learn it then it wouldn’t have been helpful to have tried to force them to learn it because they wouldn’t have come across a need to know it anyway. So, it was like that little gameplay shift for me. It is okay.
And then number two, just looking back on my own journey, what do I remember of what I learned and aced on the test. And now it’s only when I need it, I will learn that little piece. I’ll brush up again, learning it in the moment. It’s fundamentally stronger as in it makes more of a connection because that’s where I’m learning what I need. That web of learning that you mentioned in an earlier episode, Erika.
That is how the relationship just became fundamental, because that was so much more supportive of our lives and that interdependence of living together. And if I focus there, everything else kind of like takes care of itself. And in that way, people make choices and we help them. And when I focus on the relationship, it puts my energy in the places that matter the most long-term, even now with all my kids as adults.
ANNA: Yeah. I think what I love about this choice that you made, Erika, about what still matters is the relationship because, I don’t know how to say it because that’s what actually matters years later. Not just when we have kids at home, but when our kids are adults and what kind of relationships we want then.
We have a lot in our culture happening now about people going no contact and not being in touch with their families. And as someone who works with families and adults and their parents, it’s like, oh, that doesn’t happen there, when they are all adults. That doesn’t happen in isolation, over one or two events. That happens over years of not being heard or listened to. And I know these parents, because I’m working with them too. These adult parents that are now in their sixties to eighties, they were doing what they thought was best. They were trying to make sure their kids would be independent adults. They were trying to help them. But it caused harm.
They didn’t have these nuanced discussions that we’re able to have in a community of people who are picking apart these ideas. And I think, oh, that’s such a big difference in this lifestyle. Pam and I both have adult children, Erika’s kids are teenagers, but ours are well into their adulthood and we still enjoy each other. We still want to hang out and we still get the calls and we still do the processing and we are still a part of each other’s lives in different ways.
It looks different for all the different kids that we have because they all have different personalities, but it’s there, that foundation, that attending to the relationship for all those years. We’re still doing it, and it still has so much meaning in our lives.
There’s just something about that. That’s really poetic and beautiful when you think about this life and these choices.
PAM: Yes, I love that. And I think it leads nicely into what I wanted to talk about here. And that’s the paradigm shifting idea that children are whole and capable people right now, not like adults in training.
Then this was one of my earliest paradigm shifts on the journey. And I do think it still matters, so, so much.
And this idea brings together so many pieces that we’ve been talking about this month. When people first hear this, I feel like they often discount it, right? No, children aren’t whole, children aren’t capable.
I can just hear and some people have said, there’s just so much about life that kids don’t know. Or they can’t feed and clothe themselves. They couldn’t live on their own, that whole independence agenda. So, that’s the picture, right?
They need to train to be an adult, right? I can’t help but think about how that whole agenda just comes in there. And we seem to constantly be looking at children, I think, and just comparing them to adults. Seeing all those missing bits, that must mean they aren’t whole, that must mean they aren’t capable. But this was a piece that really locked into place for me. They are not adults, right?
They are whole and capable of being the two-year-old that they are, the eight-year-old, the 15-year-old. And in my experience, our worlds absolutely are forever changed when we can take off those adult tinted glasses and join them as who they are in this moment, right? So when we can do that, we start to see these whole children as our guides.
We start to see them making choices that make so much sense when we look at that through their eyes. They always made sense, but now with our clearer vision, we’re seeing it. It’s like, oh, I never understood why they did that. I thought I had to fix that. I kept trying to tell them to do it this other way. But when we can take off that lens and just start looking at them, we see those choices.
We see glimpses of how capable they are of understanding themselves, of saying no for reasons that make sense to them. And even seeing us and sensing our energy, I think that’s something that is kind of a surprise for us as we start noticing how much our kids can be impacted by our energy. And they can sense that and incorporate that.
They are capable of seeing, understanding, and incorporating that. And spoiler alert, in my experience, we soon find that we don’t even need that age distinction. I think that can be part of the journey, helping to see, oh yeah, they’re two-years-old.
But then it’s not like what can your two-year-old do? Or what should your two-year-old be able to do? What should your eight-year-old know? You realize that, oh yeah, that again has really no value. It’s really, who is this person? What do they want to be doing? What are their interests? That becomes the lens. It just really helps us recognize that they are whole and capable human beings right now, full stop, at any and every age.
And then, you always want to remember that doesn’t mean that they’re always happy and easygoing. It means that they’re living a rich and meaningful human life. There are always ups and downs and frustrations and hard things.
And so often people, well, if they get to choose what they do, they’ll never choose to do hard things. How will they learn? All those pieces that you start to recognize when you’re watching your own kids that, oh, that’s not true.
We really will choose to do the things we want to do, even if they’re challenging, even if they’re frustrating. And I think this also is when we really start to fundamentally understand in our bones that people are different, as we’ve talked about in the last episode. Because that’s the next lens, I think, that we can remove after our adult-tinted ones come off.
The one that has us viewing their choices and behavior through the lens of what we would do in similar circumstances. Okay, so yes, we keep going and going because it’s all connected. It’s all woven together. But I think you can see why I think this idea about children and being in relationship with them still really matters all these years.
ANNA: Yes, I thought they were very nicely connected. Very nicely connected and definitely still matters. And I love that age piece that you pulled out, how that falls away, because it’s kind of ridiculous.
And yet you could do it in the same way with “adults”, well, you’re 30, so you should do this. You’re 45, you should know how to do this. But it’s like, who’s that person? And so I love when we can just let all of those external pieces fade away and just look at the person in front of us. What excites them? What lights them up? What do they want to do? What do they find hard? What do they want help with? What do they need?
I think when you, like you’re saying, take off those glasses, because I don’t know that we see them in all of their beauty and complexity when we have on those lenses that are trying to put them in a box.
It’s like okay, have they done this? Have they checked this? Are they doing this? Are they going to do that? Are they going to know how to do this? Again, all those things are designed to separate us. But gosh, when you just, my vision is just like being on the floor to just be with those kids and just watch the way their brains work. And I get so lit up on the network when people are talking about their kids. Anyone on the network will know, I get so excited about all the kids.
And I just love them all so much because we have this wide range of just amazing kids that say the most incredible things. And that’s because somebody’s listening, right? It’s like these parents are listening and then bringing it to us with these incredible ideas and stories that they share.
And Erika has teens right now who are just deep and feeling things and thinking about hard ideas and all of these pieces. And it’s like, gosh, we can miss that. If we just have that adult lens on and we’re trying to put them into boxes.
And so, absolutely one of the gifts of this life is really that understanding that they are just full, capable human beings in front of us from the start. I love that, Pam.
ERIKA: Oh, I love it so much. It was making me think of a couple of things.
One was my experience being a child. I do have memories of being a young child and my mind was rich and deep and I had all sorts of understandings about the world and about how people should treat each other. And I had my convictions and it was not like me at five was a blank slate ready to just learn from the adults around me. I knew a lot even then and, and I just can picture what my mind has felt like every step of the way and every step of the way it’s me. It was me then and it’s me now.
And so I don’t think there’s any sort of magic in becoming an adult. I think that if we can realize that our children are whole from the very beginning and that they know who they are from the very beginning, it’s just, it’s so much richer. And then I also think that if we’re viewing everything in that adult lens of when you’re allowed to do things or when you will be able to do things or when you mature enough. Or telling them these things you’re thinking about now are just nonsense and not important. It leads to this cultural feeling for the kids of, I just can’t wait to be an adult so that I could finally do what I want to do.
I remember that feeling in school of like, we’re just waiting. School was just waiting to be done and to finally get to live our lives and finally be an adult who gets to make choices.
And so I just love that we can question that with our families and just be like, you know what, you’re a human right now, you are a person. And our culture is set up to not allow them access to every single thing at that age. But having a parent who takes them seriously and listens to their thoughts and ideas just from the beginning, I think it just creates such a different experience for them growing up.
ANNA: Right. I mean, there’s so much that we can facilitate. I do think and will stand by that I think that kids are the most marginalized group in the world. They’re the largest group that is marginalized in that way.
And I think it’s so powerful to know they do have this inside of them and they do know and with agency can make these amazing decisions. And so because of the way our culture is set up, that does put us in that role of facilitating to help them do that.
I love how you shared with me before, Erika, these insights you’ve had from being very young. I don’t have a ton of memories from childhood. And so I’m fascinated by them when we’ve talked about them, because you had such a clear vision of how you were feeling and thinking. And I’m like, yes, intuitively, I know this and could see it in my own kids, but it was really cool to talk to you about those pieces.
I do have one memory from middle school. I remember things were really hard and it was just, middle school was very tough. And I remember just thinking, I’m going to become an adult and I’m going to spend the rest of my life advocating for children. I remember that thought so, so clearly.
And honestly, it has driven me ever since. And that is why I’m still doing the work that I’m doing because children have so much to say and they’re just amazing. And anyway, so yeah, I just, I love that.
But so, I’m going to go on to mine and what I’m going to talk about is something that I think can both be exciting and it can also infuriate people. And, and we’ve touched on it a little bit over the month, but it’s that there’s no one right way. There’s no perfect path.
There’s no one size fits all. And I think when people are first looking at unschooling, they do want the playbook, right? They wonder, what should I do? How do I do this right? And I’m going to be the best unschooler. That’s what I want to do.
And it makes sense. These were the type of questions school encouraged us to focus on. There was an answer, the answer, and we needed to get the answer. And often even show that our work to get the answer was the same, which is insane to me. They do not understand people are different. That’s how we succeed in that environment though.
So, at first it can feel a little scary to hear that there isn’t an answer and that there isn’t one path, but the flip side of that is it can be so liberating and sometimes slowly, sometimes quickly it clicks and it just all makes sense.
Last week when we talked about ‘people are different’, that’s really the root of why there isn’t one path. We’re all so different, how we learn, how we want to engage in the world, what we prioritize, what lights us up.
It’s all so unique to who we are and it adds this amazing color to our personal journey. But within that, it can be really beautiful to share the journey with people who are intentional about their relationships, who value connection above product, who are curious and know deep down there are these other paths that we can take. That feels really energizing to me.
And as Pam mentioned at the beginning of the month, we do not come here as experts with the answer. We don’t believe there is an answer. We are fellow explorers who enjoy teasing out the nuances and asking the tough questions of ourselves, of others, of the world. Growing beyond old patterns and expectations.
And I think those are just a few of the things waiting for people when they step off that treadmill of the one right way that our culture can present and they start to dig a little bit deeper. I feel like that’s one cool side effect of choosing this path. We’ve talked about it before as the window. People may come to it as an alternative to school because maybe school isn’t working for their child in this moment.
But this whole world of questioning and exploration has opened up all the things we thought of as a given or a ‘have to’ come into question. And the thing is, we may choose to hold on to some of them and we may let others go, but the difference is coming from a place of choice. Everything is a choice.
And what’s interesting is that was one of the first essays that I wrote. Gosh, it’s probably been 20 years ago, but it was called, “Everything is a Choice” and it can also ruffle some feathers. But I find it to be the most empowering understanding because we always have a choice. There isn’t one way to do anything. And we can choose how we move through these different situations, whether it’s just the energy we bring to it or the actual choices that we’re making.
And so I’m feeling like I could go off on a tangent here about so many like black and white ideas that don’t serve us. So, I’m going to stop. But the idea that there isn’t one right way is really the cornerstone of the work that the three of us do together and the environment that we’ve cultivated on the network. So, I feel like this is one that still matters and will always matter.
PAM: Yeah, so much like there is not one right way. And it is so hard for people wrap their head around it. And it does it weave into ‘people are different’ so closely. I like to add on the end, there’s a right way for you.
ANNA: Yes, there’s a right way for me, in this moment.
PAM: That’s exactly where I was going, right now. Because that can change over time, too. It’s all about me. Right? And how am I in this moment? What am I wanting to put on my plate? What choices do I want to make? And in this context of everybody around me, of my own capacity, mood, how tired am I?
All the things will go into the choice that I make. And yeah, I remember early conversations about that. What do you mean everything is a choice? Like, I don’t have a choice about this and this and that. It’s just fascinating to think about and absolutely that completely still matters.
It’s just such a huge paradigm shift and bringing it into your days. No matter the age of anyone involved, it just brings the choice back to ourselves.
ERIKA: Yeah. Beautiful. I do think it is so personality driven, too. I think some people have a much easier time with this concept than others. And I feel like when I notice myself thinking, well, that’s not right. It’s just fun then now to be like, what do I mean by that?
What do I think is right? And so, yeah, it’s one of those exploding my brain kind of realizations that’s happened along the unschooling journey. But I feel like if we follow the whole thread of a choice and then the result and all of that, we may have a belief culturally that if we did choose correctly, then we are guaranteed a certain result.
And so realizing through observation that is not in any way true, it then releases some of the pressure around all of those earlier choices. Just because I did what society said was correct on steps ABC doesn’t mean I’m going to get to that end result of D that that they’re promising. And I think, after I was in school, I also spent a brief time teaching in school.
And I think when I was teaching high school was one of the times when I realized this promise that they’ve made to these children is not a real thing. I think it’s really doing a disservice to young people to say, if you do this, this, this, I mean, it’s the longest list of expectations. If you do all of this, then you will be successful.
And that’s just not how life works. And so let’s just take the pressure off of those choices and realize that there isn’t a way to guarantee any kind of result. And why not try to aim for a result that fits us better, rather than just trying to be on this kind of straight and narrow path that they say will get us to our destination.
And so if we observe the world and all the people in it, we can see there are so many different ways to live a good life. And there’s so many different paths that can get you to where you’re going. And so, it’s all about ‘people are different’.
It’s all about there’s no one right way. I love thinking about these things.
PAM: And bringing the mistakes that we’ve been talking about this month, your path can change your destination. That’s the other super cool thing. I’ve taken like three more steps, my own personal ABC, and now E is looking a little off. I don’t want to go in that direction. I want E minus or something, right? And that’s totally okay, that I’m learning a little bit more each time.
And just moving through life that way, rather than on a set path. And then, even people who have taken the path and ended up where society said, Oh, you’ve made it. And then they’re like, is this even where I want to be? You know what I mean?
There’s just so much to consider and it really is that one right path really just isn’t a useful measure or direction to take, because it really just doesn’t align with who we are even if we take it and it works perfectly, it may not feel good.
ANNA: I really love that piece you said that it’s a disservice. Really it is a disservice to all of these amazing capable children that are trying to then grow and figure out what they want to do with their lives because there isn’t one path.
There’s this other thought that I had about that. I think we’ve all been there. I was not a teacher, but I’ve been around the kids a lot in my life, and at some point we’ve all heard or thought, why do I have to learn this? What is the purpose of this? They’re asking those questions and are systematically shut down. And those are fair questions.
Why do I need to be doing this? What is the purpose? I remember asking those questions because that’s just how my brain works. And would just be told, but you’re going to get this thing. If you keep doing this thing that makes no sense to you now, then you’re going to get this other thing. And that’s not how it happened.
And even David did all the things on paper, it looked a lot like that, he did this, did the thing, got the degree, got the job in the degree, did all of it. It served a purpose. And then he realized, this is not where I want to be.
I just wish we could have more conversations with kids, unschooled or not unschooled, just so they could just hear more about the millions of different ways there are to be in the world and to be a quote, success, to live a life that feels rich and enjoyable and sustainable. I think those are the conversations that we’re missing in our culture because we’re so attached to that one right path.
I think that’s why letting go of this one right path piece is so huge. And you just see people really lighting up because they realized that pursuit of the one right path didn’t serve them either.
ERIKA: Yeah. And maybe talking to successful adults about what are the things that make you happy and see if it’s the job or if it’s something totally different, which I would imagine it probably is.
PAM: And that reminds me, the one right path, I think, became real challenging. It was a recent month in the network. And we’ve been talking about putting everything on the table, right?
It can feel so scary up front, to offer even the possibility that there are other paths, right, that there are other possibilities, that there are other choices. Scary to even open up the conversation to creative ways one might make things work. It can feel so challenging. I was just struck by what you said, Anna, about opening up this conversation, whether or not kids are in school, right, to actually take the time to talk about the possibilities, to talk about how people are feeling about what choices or what’s even just going on in their life right now.
And it goes back to the kids are capable. Kids are capable of so much. You don’t just have to tell them to just follow this path. Kids are capable of understanding, and often expressing what’s not working for them about the thing.
And just opening up those conversations, even in the networks I’m listening to. I actually opened up a conversation and was uncomfortable about it. Because I really wanted it to work out this way. But then I learned so much.
And we made it so much better for them as well. Just opening up the conversation can feel hard, because you feel like you might be opening yourself up to having to defend but no, really, your mind is being opened.
So often, there are so many possibilities that are workable, but we don’t see when we’re just looking at that one path, right?
ANNA: Right! Okay, one last thing. And then I know we’re going over, but it’s just what you just said really sparked something. I think it is scary for people to put everything on the table. Because what if we tell kids, there’s all these options, and they don’t make “the” choice. But some of them will still make that choice, but they will do it out of a choice. They’ll be like, this is what I want to do.
And they will be successful on that path in whatever that looks like for them, because they want to be here. But then the kids that want to choose differently are going to find their unique path that fills them. And for me, I’ve always said this, our world is so much better served by people choosing the path that they want and living in alignment in that way.
Because then we get the rich skills and all of the different brains coming at it in a way that just is so much richer than forcing people. So that if you don’t fit on that path, but yet there you are, you feel bad about yourself, right? You’re questioning, why am I not okay? Why is this not working? This is the path. Why does it feel so bad? This is what I’m supposed to be doing.
Instead, that person may be an artist that’s supposed to be over here changing the world in this other way. And we lose that, we lose those colors, we lose that richness. So, now I’m excited about how I can make sure we’re all having this conversation?
PAM: Yes, I think it’s so, so important. Me too. Me too.
ANNA: I just want to thank you both so much. I feel like these reflections and just sharing these last few episodes, thinking about these last 10 years, and all of our journeys has just been so rich, and has felt important to me. So I hope that other people enjoyed it as well.
And to everyone who’s listening or watching, I just really appreciate you joining us for these conversations. We really have such a good time. And we do invite you to join us at the Living Joyfully Network.
As we mentioned in the last episodes, we have a free trial month, so you can check it out. I think that you’ll see that these are the conversations that we enjoy. It’s okay to be a lurker to just kind of check it out.
We have a lot of resources you can dig into if you have questions about this lifestyle and the different pieces about it and what it can look like in your family. And we also love the conversation. It’s just a really fun place.
I do hope you’ll check it out. And you can learn more about that by clicking on the link in the show notes or going to our website livingjoyfully.ca and click on Network in the menu. Thank you both so much and just wishing everyone a beautiful day.
Bye.
Bye.
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The Exploring Unschooling Podcast has now been around for over 10 years and 400 episodes! This month, we’re celebrating these huge milestones by looking back and reflecting on three big questions.
In Part 2 of our celebration, Pam, Anna, and Erika explore the question of what’s changed in the past 10 years. We talked about how unschooling is more like a branch of the tree rather than the roots, how the realization of the many, many ways that people are different has influenced our work, and how unschooling is really our journey and our work to do as parents.
We thank you so much for being a part of our Exploring Unschooling community and hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey and in your relationships!
Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube.
THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODEWe invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network, a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents. It’s a non-judgmental space where you can steep in these unconventional ideas around parenting, relationships, and learning, and explore what they might look like day-to-day in your uniquely wonderful family. We offer a free month trial so you can see if it’s a good fit for you. Click here to join us.
Sign up to our mailing list on Substack to receive our email newsletters as well as new articles about learning, parenting, and so much more!
Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about exploring unschooling and navigating relationships.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPTERIKA: Hello everyone, I’m Erika Ellis from Living Joyfully and I’m joined by my co-hosts Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia. Hello to you both!
So, today we’re continuing our series of episodes reflecting on the 10-year anniversary of the Exploring Unschooling podcast.
I know the podcast has been so influential to so many people, as it has been for me on my unschooling journey. And recently what has really deepened my understanding and learning and enriched my life in countless ways is the Living Joyfully Network. Our community of parents on Mighty Networks is a wonderful place to explore all of the questions and aha moments that come up on this journey.
I love our live conversations and our monthly topics to consider and I’ve made so many amazing friends. Every day I feel both inspired and calmed by the network. The topics we dive into inspire me to look closer and grow as a person. When everyone shares their unique experiences, I just feel grounded in knowing that we’re doing this together.
It really is an amazing space and we’d love for you to join us. You can find the link in the show notes or visit livingjoyfully.ca to learn more about joining and our new free trial month offer. So in this episode we’re going to be reflecting on the question, what has changed?
And as Pam said last time, 10 years is a good chunk of time and we’ve all definitely grown and changed during that time so I’m excited for this discussion. Would you like to get us started, Pam?
PAM: Absolutely, absolutely. When I started this podcast 10 years ago, my work was pretty much focused on unschooling, around exploring the choice to go to school or not go to school. Back when I realized that was even a choice and quickly found unschooling, it felt like a fundamental or a foundational choice in our life. I mean culturally school was and mostly still is so integrally woven into childhood that it seems that school is the most important aspect of childhood.
Everything else is extracurricular activities, right? It’s right there in the language. So what’s changed for me over the last decade is that I now see unschooling as a branch of the tree of childhood and not the roots.
For me, what lives in the roots and truly redefines childhood is cultivating connected and supportive relationships with our kids and giving them agency over their lives. Not as in leaving them to their own devices or insisting that they make all their decisions but living consensually as a family as you talked about in the last episode, Anna. How they feel and what they think matters.
We all have value regardless of age, right? And they may or may not want school to be part of their lives. It’s just a question. It’s not the fundamental question of childhood or it doesn’t have to be. And that answer may well change over time. School is a choice alongside the many other choices in their lives.
So that said, unschooling can be a great window into this way of being in relationship with our kids. And I think because it’s often the first place that real conflict can arise, like when a kid and the school classroom environment just don’t mix well. And that was definitely my path but it’s certainly not the only path to discovering the far-reaching and lifelong impact of just cultivating those connected relationships with our kids, right? There’s where the rich soil is.
ANNA: I know. It’s so interesting because you know I love a tree analogy. But it’s funny because in the early days, for me, I actually saw consensual living as the umbrella and unschooling was one choice under that umbrella. That’s the piece that you’re getting at.
It’s like unschooling is one choice when we’re living consensually. We have children making autonomous decisions and having agency about how they want to spend their time, how they want to engage in the world, how we want to do that together as a family. And so I really love that distinction and I do think it evolved really for all of us. I think especially for you, Pam, because you came from school to unschooling. It’s a little bit different for Erika and I. We have always unschooled with our kids. So I think that’s why maybe for me, I had that different view of it earlier on.
But I think it’s critical because, you’re right, I think it’s that first touch point that people come to, this flashpoint with school. It can be so intense and you kind of feel like you’re losing your child or their light is dimming and it feels scary. And so unschooling can be this beautiful door to walk through to realize that there are different ways. But yeah, I think once you’re there and realize, oh, it’s actually about the connection, it’s actually about the relationship we have.
And then together, we can make the choices that best serve us, whatever that looks like. And, and of course, I love unschooling, we all do here. But but yeah, I really love putting it in that place. It’s the relationships that are so important.
ERIKA: It reminds me of my perfection piece from the last one, because I remember when I first found unschooling, it’s like, well, if you are putting your kids in school, then you’re not unschooling. It was all connected. It’s like you have to make that decision in order to be doing it right, because I was looking for how to do it right.
And so it really has been a journey, a mindset journey to get to the place of realizing it’s not about school. It’s not about any one particular choice that may or may not look mainstream. It’s about what the child wants. What is the relationship with the child feeling like? And so I think unschooling kind of answers one problem, which is, the child is hating school. And so unschooling is a way to respect their autonomy in that way. And then a whole bunch of other possibilities open up.
But we’ve seen so many amazing families with these amazing connected relationships deciding to go to school. And that doesn’t change that core value and that root of what is amazing about their families, which is listening to each other, making sure that we’re not pushing past someone else’s consent. It’s very eye-opening to get to that place where it really is not about school. It’s not about that decision. It’s about something deeper than that.
PAM: Something deeper, so much more. And yes, we have episodes on the podcast where I talked to parents whose kids have gone to school and so much doesn’t need to change. You don’t all of a sudden have to become a different kind of parent or have a different kind of relationship, just because school happens to be in the picture.
But yes, it definitely takes that mindset shift, right? To recognize, it’s not like one life I’m unschooling or I’m not unschooling. It’s when you get to the roots of the relationship and start looking at your days and your lives from there. It’s just a fundamentally different way. And unschooling is one of the choices.
I think when you take that journey to recognize the importance and value of the relationships, the school choice is just a choice. Whether or not school happens to be part of your lives for a season or for however long it works, the fundamental difference is that it’s still a choice.
ANNA: That’s what I was gonna say. It’s choice and agency, right? That’s the fundamental difference.
And that’s why it feels different. That’s why the families on the network that have kids that have gone back to school, it feels so different because it’s choice and agency that’s driving it versus have to and cultural expectation. And so it’s just really interesting to tease apart how different the same thing can feel when you’re coming at it from that deeply rooted place that you’re talking about.
I love that. Okay. So for me, one of the big, big ones that has changed, I would say kind of refined and we’ve honed in on it, is this idea that people are different and how that permeates everything.
In the early days, we talked a lot about celebrating the uniqueness of our children. We talked about coming up with solutions that worked for everyone, taking the time to listen, to understand all these different perspectives. So the groundwork was there for that understanding.
But something really clicked when we started talking specifically about how people are different because we are so different. We process information so differently. We prioritize things differently. We see and experience the world differently. There are so many ways that we are different. It is endless.
And it’s funny because Nora in the network just was sharing on one of our weekly calls, another one that popped up for her, another people are different thing. And she was talking about what motivates us to complete a task because she was noticing that she and her husband really take these very opposite approaches. He likes to make the task easy. She likes to make the task interesting. And so they’re coming at this in a very, very different way. And it’s just another way that they’re different.
One is not better than the other. One is not right or wrong. And when we start with that fundamental understanding that our brains are unique and we all have our own way of moving through the world, we can let go of the defensiveness. We don’t have to defend our way of being. We don’t have to convince someone else to see it our way or that our way is right. We can get curious.
And we talk about that so much. We can start enjoying the process of understanding ourselves and others without getting stuck on there being a right way or a better way, which we’ve also touched on this month. And I’m not going to tangent off into all the differences because they’re just literally too many. But it definitely comes up in the podcast. We’ve talked about it there. We talk about it a lot on the network.
But what I’m getting at today is really this more general open curiosity about exploring the ways that we’re different and ultimately celebrating them and getting excited about these different ways, not taking them personally, not being defensive, just getting excited and thinking how cool it is. Because when we feel that defensiveness slip away, it really leaves space for this deeper, more meaningful connection and a deeper understanding, again, of both ourselves and those around us.
I think it’s been so interesting because just understanding that people are different has helped me learn more about myself. Because there’s something that allows me to realize, that’s actually really important to me. That’s the way my brain works. That’s the way I need something to be presented or the way I need to move through something.
I felt before it was more external, I’m just trying to push my way through or this is how it has to be done. I don’t know how to explain it, but the nuance of that really has helped me understand myself more, understand my relationships more, the people in my life more. This is a piece I’m going to be exploring and talking about the rest of my life because it’s just so fundamental.
ERIKA: It’s such a huge paradigm shift. It has helped me so, so, so much. It’s almost hard to talk about the depth of what this is doing in my mind to be able to think this way. What I can remember is that before these big mindset shifts, it was more like, I want to find out the right way to do this thing or the right way to be like this. If something’s hard for me, that’s something that I should work on. If something’s hard for someone else, that’s the area they need to improve or that kind of thing.
Rather than just saying, this thing is hard for me, that other thing is hard for you. Working to our strengths and realizing our differences. I love the part about how it makes communicating about ourselves with other people easier.
It just has none of that fighting energy, none of this kind of argument energy of like, you’re doing it wrong, I’m doing it right, or I feel like I need to just keep apologizing for myself because I just can’t get my stuff together. I can’t handle this for whatever reason. And so just realizing all of these different layers at which we are just so different from each other and accepting it has been a complete game changer in all of my relationships.
I can start to notice why that thing has always bothered me about how that person does it. It’s just because that doesn’t make sense to my mind. So I feel like anytime we come upon something that someone else is doing and we say to ourselves, it just doesn’t make sense. Why are they doing that? It doesn’t make any sense. Then that’s our clue of like, we’ve hit upon people are different again, because it makes sense to them. And yeah, it’s just so deep and rich and one of my favorite topics.
PAM: Yeah, yeah, me too. And it’s another beautiful example of how unschooling is a window because, like you were talking about Anna, at first, we have always used that language when it comes to our kids, because that’s kind of where I first discovered how different people could be. And that it felt wrong to correct them because it was working for them.
They just they did it their way. And it was working out fine. And I was like, oh, it was part of my whole journey around mistakes are bad, right? They did it this way. And that was different than the way I would have ever thought to do it. And look, it still worked. So, that was the fundamental first observation. I think that that set me down this path.
There are just so many layers, because then it was like, oh, there’s a reason they did it that way. You see that consistency over time. I realized they just think about this differently than I do. That’s interesting. And I could see how my kids were different.
And then you start questioning that age component, right? I can see how I like to do things in particular ways, and then it just starts layer by layer. You find all the different ways, discover more ways that people are different, you discover that it’s not just kids who are different, they’re people. They are whole people. I do even remember when that phrase first popped up. But it just encapsulated everything so beautifully.
And, and it sounds so simple on the surface, people are different. We say that to anybody and people think, of course, but it’s just so fundamentally different and deeper. And once you start using that lens, when I see somebody doing something, and think, I would never do it that way. Go to how people are different, rather than they’re doing it wrong, I should tell them how to do it properly, or more effectively, or more efficiently, or whatever lens we used before. We have improved with the way we choose to do it, to instead use that people are different lens. Oh, and yes, what great framing for conversations, right? Because it’s not judging the way that they’re doing it.
Once they can get on that same page, when we’re coming at this with language that isn’t fighting them, isn’t trying to fix them. Conversations about it are just so much more interesting, because then we’re actually learning about ourselves and learning about other people. And then we can bring that consideration with us forward, right? It’s so cool.
ERIKA: And yeah, it’s making me remember that there’s so much coming at us in any given moment, so much sensory information, right? And everyone’s brain is picking the part that we’re paying attention to. And so you can’t even say, we were all there, how did they not have the same experience as I did? It’s because they didn’t. They literally didn’t see or hear or feel it the same. It could be a completely different experience from one person to another. So it makes sense why we’re all so different.
So anyway, the one I came up with for this question, thinking about what has changed about my understanding over the years, is when I was first learning about unschooling, I was so focused on what it meant for the kids. What they were doing, or weren’t doing. What I was doing for them? What I was choosing not to do for them? So basically, how to approach my days with them. And with all that focus just going towards them. And over time, that has changed with the realization, and I’m sure it came from the podcast too, that the unschooling journey is my journey to take.
Unschooling is really about me letting go of old messages and patterns, digging into the layers to figure out why I react like this. Or healing a lot of old wounds that can get triggered by parenting. And so, it’s really a journey of growth for myself, that then benefits my relationships with my children. And since I’m willing to look at myself and learn and grow, they gradually have a parent who is more aware, more resourced, and better equipped to support them.
And it’s this beautiful upward spiral. And it’s not to say that it’s easy, or that the upward spiral is just going up and up all the time. But I think it’s actually a bit harder because I need to focus on myself and my baggage and all of that in order to move forward.
In fact, I know we mention all the time that one of the red flags that we’re stressed or maybe have too much on our plates is when we start focusing outside of ourselves and trying to control other people, control our children. It’s so much easier to say, you’re doing this wrong, I need you to get better, than it is to look inside of ourselves. And I think a lot of mainstream parenting is really focused in that way on controlling the kids and looking for the problems that the kids have, rather than exploring why we’re so activated by certain things that the kids are doing and making changes in ourselves.
But I think changing that kind of generational trauma and that generational story, the old patterns, that really has to start with me. And while the kids are focusing on the things they’re interested in and growing and gaining skills, I can focus on becoming more and more true to myself, and just de-schooling all of those internalized beliefs that I took on as I was growing up. And my kids are really great guides in this kind of work, because they’re just naturally so much more in tune with who they are.
They have not internalized nearly as many limiting beliefs as I have. And so looking at them inspires me to continue, because I think this is big, challenging work to do, but it’s so valuable. And sometimes I can’t even believe how much I’ve changed and grown through my unschooling journey.
And I’m really proud of all the work that I’ve put into it. And I’m happy that I can live more truthfully now with my family. I really think it’s changed our relationships.
PAM: I love the idea of more truthfully. I love that phrase, because that is what it feels like. And I too had that realization. At the beginning of the journey because, my kids left school. So it was like, what are we going to do instead of school?
And it was all very outwardly focused at first. But then as I discovered unschooling, and those kinds of questions started bubbling up, then the shift, then that is something if you listen to the podcast archive, you will hear people echo. Especially when I do like 10 questions episodes, where we really dive deeper into people’s journeys. It’s like, it really was all about me, it really is all so much my work to do alongside supporting them.
But if I don’t do this work, I am putting so much on top of our relationship, and our days that is just doing pretty much nothing but getting in the way. It was just a huge thing.
And, you know, as you said, Erika, it can be such a great clue when we notice we’re starting to look outside. I’m feeling overwhelmed, I just need to control other things, just to settle things down. But that is such a great clue to examine, why am I feeling so overwhelmed? Why am I feeling beyond capacity? That is just a useful clue. And not judging right, wrong, good, bad.
Now, if you listen to this podcast for a little while, you know it’s not about that. But these are all great clues that help us ask better questions that just help us learn more and live more truthfully. Like that’s why that phrase struck me. So, that was really cool.
ANNA: Yeah, I love that, too. And this was definitely a part of my journey. Because we come from this culture that’s so externally focused, do it this way, do the right path, do the thing, you know, all of these pieces. And so, really learning it’s all about me is huge. I don’t know if it’s in the Summit, or one of my early talks but it’s literally called “It’s all about me.” Because that was this big revelation, they’re fine. They know how to do these things. They know how to learn and grow and make mistakes and be in the world. It’s me that has all these things to unlearn and unpack to get to that place of alignment of truth of who I am and who I want to be.
And that was just amazing to me. It’s terrifying. And it’s empowering, right? It’s kind of terrifying, wait a minute, now I need to look at all these pieces. But that I can change, right? I think when we’re so externally focused it’s harder. I can’t change David, I can’t change my girls. They are their own people. And so when we get that, it’s easier. I love that red flag piece too. When I’m out there trying to micromanage everybody around me, it really means probably something’s not feeling good for me, something’s happening for me. And so, again, it can be scary to look at that and do that work. But it is also the thing I can control, which is me, how I move through the world. And so then that kind felt exciting.
So yeah, this was another huge one for me that just really keeps coming back around. Oh yeah, it’s me again. It’s not them. It’s me.
ERIKA: I mean, it makes it easier, right? In a way. We have control over that part.
ANNA: Yeah.
ERIKA: If it’s soothing to think, maybe nothing’s wrong with those kids. Maybe they’re just living their lives. So, thanks so much to both of you for sharing your reflections.
This was really fun. And to everyone listening in their podcast feed or watching on YouTube, we appreciate you joining us. In our next episode, we will be diving into the question of what still matters to us.
And so we also invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network. We’re offering a free month trial so you can come and see what it’s for yourself. And if you enjoy the kinds of conversations we have on the podcast, there’s a good chance that the network might be a great fit for you as well. I hope to see you there. To learn more and join us, follow the link in the show notes or go to our website, which is livingjoyfully.ca and click on Network in the menu. Wishing everyone a wonderful day.
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The Exploring Unschooling Podcast began at the beginning of 2016 when Pam released episode EU001: What is Unschooling?
10 Years! And 400 Episodes! To celebrate these huge milestones, we are looking back and reflecting this month.
In Part 1 of our celebration, Pam, Anna, and Erika explore the question of what we’ve learned on our unschooling journeys in the past 10 years. It was a very fun question to explore and we really enjoyed digging into all of our answers.
We talked about how living consensually is really about where we choose to direct our energy, how there’s no such thing as a perfect unschooler (or a perfect parent!), and how independence is not a good measure of unschooling or parenting success. These were all huge paradigm shifts for us over time that have proven to be so valuable.
We thank you so much for being a part of our Exploring Unschooling community and hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey and in your relationships!
Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube.
THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODEWe invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network, a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents. It’s a non-judgmental space where you can steep in these unconventional ideas around parenting, relationships, and learning, and explore what they might look like day-to-day in your uniquely wonderful family. We offer a free month trial so you can see if it’s a good fit for you. Click here to join us.
Sign up to our mailing list on Substack to receive our email newsletters as well as new articles about learning, parenting, and so much more!
Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about exploring unschooling and navigating relationships.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPTPAM: Hello, everyone! I’m Pam Laricchia from Living Joyfully and I am joined by my co-hosts Anna Brown and Erika Ellis.
Hello and welcome, everyone, to episode 400 of the Exploring Unschooling podcast. This year also marks 10 years since I started the podcast. The first episode went out January 10th, 2016 and it all just feels a little surreal yet meaningful for me. And not so much in that celebratory, look how long we’ve been doing this, yay! That is very cool. But in the more reflective sense that 10 years really is a good chunk of time, right? Enough time for thoughts and ideas to grow and change, to strengthen and wither.
And so, in the last month or so, I’ve become quite curious about exploring this more deeply. When I eventually shared my thoughts about it with Anna and Erika, hello internal processor, they were so very supportive and happy to dive into this reflection alongside me, for which I am forever grateful. You guys are amazing teammates, thank you so very much.
And I just wanted to share, Anna first appeared on the podcast in episode 4, the very first roundtable episode that we had, and Erika began listening in the early days, first appearing on the podcast in 2019 to talk about unschooling book clubs. And then in October 2022, they both officially became podcast co-hosts.
So, coming back to now, rather than doing a retrospective or greatest hits episode, as I was trying to think what to do for 400, we decided to use this anniversary, 10 years and 400 episodes, as a chance to pause and just ask ourselves a few simple, but at least what feel to me, meaningful questions.
What have we learned over the past decade?
What has changed?
And what still matters?
So, over the next three episodes, the three of us are going to explore those questions together. Now if you’ve been listening to the podcast for a while, you know that we don’t share our thoughts as experts with answers, but just as thoughtful and curious people who’ve lived this lifestyle with our families for many, many years and have participated in conversations in this sphere for a long time.
The podcast continues because we enjoy sharing our experiences, the ideas that resonate with us, and the patterns that we’ve noticed. And if you’re new here, welcome! We now have a rich archive of 400 episodes for you to explore.
The content is timeless and evergreen with a wide variety of formats from interviews with unschooling parents, to Q&A’s answering listener questions, to me sharing my published articles and conference talks that I’ve written, to ongoing series exploring things like unschooling stumbling blocks and the so-called “unschooling rules” that can trip people up as they embark on this amazing journey.
So, in this first 10-year anniversary episode we are starting our reflection with the question, what have we learned? Would you like to get us started Anna?
ANNA: I would! But oh my gosh, I’m glad we’re going to be talking and reflecting for the whole month, because it’s really hard to pick one or two things that I’ve learned, because I have learned so much about myself, about relationships, about the world. I think learning is one of the things that actually draws me to this way of life, because I feel like we’re always learning and I love that.
But what I’m going to talk about today is how living consensually in this lifestyle is really about where we choose to put our energy. The reality of it is, relationships and parenting involves work. It doesn’t have to be hard work, but recognizing that it can take energy to live with other people, to share your life with them, helps me think about how I want to spend my energy.
And as Mary Oliver asks us in The Summer Day, “Tell me what it is you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?”
So, for me as I reflect back, I never wanted to be a teacher and really it’s why homeschooling was not even on my radar. I’m too interested in learning for myself to try to impart age-appropriate information to someone else. But when our oldest made it clear that school was not going to be a good fit, I had to rethink some of these ideas.
Luckily, early on, I read John Holt and learned about unschooling and it was such a cool fit, because I love facilitating and supporting people that I love exploring the world and seeing what interests them. And I think a cool part of unschooling is that parents are also pursuing their interests and exploring. It’s about creating this environment where everyone is learning and growing and exploring together and that was exciting. That was a place I wanted to spend my energy.
Another aspect was how I want to be in relationship. Consent and not using coercion as a means to control behavior, well really not even trying to control behavior at all, was important to me. Recognizing that any behavior is just a communication of a need and it’s the needs we want to address. So, with that understanding, it changes the way we relate to each other. In healthy adult relationships we don’t coerce and punish or reward our way to the outcome we want, so why treat children differently? Why not start out with collaboration and connection? Children are incredible problem solvers and quite good at communicating their needs. I think we all know that. Why not learn those skills of navigating conflict and supporting each other from the beginning?
Recently there was a thread on the network where someone was grappling with some fears and they were wanting to reach for some control, and in part of my response I reflected, who do I want to be? How do I want to spend my time? And knowing that being an enforcer to unhappy people is not it. And I think that speaks to this energy lens I’m talking about.
Would I rather spend my energy working towards solving problems big and small than to deal with the fallout of people that don’t feel heard, don’t feel understood, feel like they’re being forced or coerced along someone else’s path? That’s an easy choice for me. Even if the culture is saying it’s for their own good, it’s that energy. What do I want to sit in? What do I want my days to look like? It just isn’t how I want to spend my time or my energy. It isn’t the person that I want to be in the world.
I want to focus on connection, understanding, problem-solving, and finding ways to live together joyfully. So, now you can see why Pam and I were drawn together some 20 plus years ago, because that living joyfully lens is a guiding light for me. I feel like it is this beautiful lens to look through to see these different aspects of our life and relationship and how that all weaves together.
I plan to continue spending my one wild precious life learning, growing, loving with abandon, prioritizing connections, and supporting others on their own unique journey. And so, yeah that’s my reflection for this one.
ERIKA: I love that so much. And actually, until you came up with this idea, I hadn’t really thought of how consent is about where we put our energy, living consensually. It’s just an interesting angle to think about living consensually. And it reminds me of something that I’ve thought about in the past. Sometimes it feels easier to reach for control, but then the way it actually turns out is like it’s not easier. It’s just being fast on the front side of what’s happening and then having to spend all this time with people who are upset.
And so, that is definitely something that I’ve learned through the podcast and through all of our discussions that we can choose that energy that we want to have and we can choose how we’re going to spend our time. And is it going to be that clamping down and trying to make everyone follow these steps? Or is it going to be this more connected, being true to ourselves, and allowing other people to be true to themselves as well, which really is what living consensually means to me?
PAM: Yeah, I love that energy focus and it was a huge a-ha moment for me back then and just so valuable for me moving forward, life-changing in the way that I looked at it. Because sometimes, the control, like you said Erika, makes it go faster up front for the most part, right. So often, we don’t really count the blowback later. We don’t relate it because sometimes it doesn’t even happen in the moment. It’s just a relationship thing that gets harder and harder and harder moving forward so at first we don’t even consider it as part of it. We just say well it’s just so much work to talk to everybody, to see what they need and see what we can figure out. That’s a lot of work because we’re only looking at the upfront piece of it and not really recognizing that back in blowback. But then you but once you start to recognize that and then you start to see oh like that’s why the relationships feel hard. That’s why our relationships feels hard.
It helps us realize that so much of it is our choices in the first place that have set this up. It’s not that our kids are grumpy, or our kids don’t listen, all those stories that more conventionally we hear in those parenting circles but we feel like it’s so out of our control. It’s our kids, they’re the ones that are grumpy, they are the problem. How do I fix my kid when in actuality, when you’re looking at that bigger picture and recognizing I have to use my energy somewhere or the relationships are completely disconnected and then parenting is just like a horrible hard thing that you have to do. You have to get through, it’s way too much of our life to do that for me.
I mean people approach it differently, but for me, what we’ve been learning and for us that’s been my experience as well that it just set a tone and an atmosphere and just felt so much better for me to put that energy there because that was connecting. We learned more about each other, and we actually enjoyed whatever choice that we made more because we didn’t have a person or two that we pulled along because they have to come and they just sit and sulk in the corner. We could enjoy so much more of our days. It didn’t feel like as much of a struggle even though it took more energy or effort up front but when I realized that I was learning things, I could enjoy that piece more and I certainly enjoy that piece more than trying to console somebody who’s really upset after we get back and break down.
ERIKA: It just sounds exhausting. Okay, I want to move on to what I’ve learned. I’m so excited about this anniversary. I think 400 episodes is a really big deal and 10 years of this podcast existing as this bolster and a resource and a comfort for so many thousands of families. It’s just really inspiring to think about and gives me goosebumps. I’m just so grateful for all that I’ve learned on this journey and really I have the podcast to thank for many of those aha moments I’ve had along the way.
When I was thinking about my own answer to what we’ve learned, what bubbled up for me was that there’s no such thing as a perfect unschooler. I can just think back to myself as a young mom or even just a young adult before I had children and I don’t think I could have wrapped my head around the idea that I can’t be perfect. What does that even mean? I think my many, many years in school gave me a pretty good idea that there are right answers and wrong answers. There are the correct paths that are worthy and good and then a lot of other paths that are disappointing and sad.
I just thought it was possible to do all the things correctly and then I could be perfect and I would be safe and so I internalized those ideas into parenting. I just was trying so hard to figure out how I could do it perfectly, how can I get an A-plus in parenting, how can I get an A-plus in unschooling. It’s so stressful thinking about that idea now, but it makes sense that that was my lens, at first. It wasn’t really even at a conscious level. I was just like a fish who doesn’t know what water is. I was just like part of this competitive culture that encouraged me to not make mistakes, to be the best but I think there is a part of me that’s really rebellious as well and so there was this part that knew that this pursuit of perfection isn’t the real story of life as a human.
Then my kids, they’re different from me. They aren’t people pleasers and they’re so clear about what works for them and I love them so much. I just can’t see them as wrong. How are they wrong? They’re awesome. So, in order to reconcile the truth of that I had to let go of the idea of the perfect parent/perfect child, the idea that mistakes should be avoided or that there’s any kind of a right answer to life. I know that in hard moments I sometimes still wish for that simplicity of getting the good grade, knowing what the right answer is but real life just doesn’t work like that.
It’s really too bad that I had so much training in that system that’s actually not that helpful when I got out into the real world and if I’m honest that external and internal pressure to be perfect or to be the best doesn’t really serve me at all. It adds so much unneeded stress. It’s safe to be different. It’s safe to make choices that don’t play out the way that we thought they would. There are just so many paths to take through life and there’s not a perfect approach.
What an amazing journey that realization has been for me. It’s not easy to release all of that baggage and all those messages of the years of conditioning but every time I can remind myself that the idea of perfection is just an illusion, our lives are made up of choices and our choices then ripple out from there, things just feel more expansive more relaxed and the possibilities open up.
I just thought maybe to get your minds buzzing with all the possibilities, I’ll throw out a few areas to consider. There’s not a perfect bedtime or a wake time. There’s no perfect diet or body. There’s no perfect age to learn any particular thing. No perfect way to be a friend or to contribute to your family or to communicate. There’s no perfect way to dress or to express your emotions or to move your body. Allowing ourselves to be unique and imperfect is so freeing and once I got there, then I could leave space for my kids and myself to just be who we are right now. This has been one of the biggest mental shifts for me in my lifetime so far I would say and it’s really thanks to conversations like these that I’ve really been able to process it.
PAM: I love that we’re all hitting on the ones that were big for us because yes this was another big one, just the idea of perfect. I’ve got to do it right. We have that whole “unschooling rules” series on the podcast because of the idea of, ‘just give me the rules of unschooling so I can be a good unschooler’ exists. That’s a fun series because that is really what it’s rooted in. Because at first, of course, I want to be really good at this. I want to be really good as a parent, and if you choose unschooling, I want to be a really good homeschooler, unschooler, whatever, whatever it is.
We are just so used to having that tick box. Then give me my list and I will do it and to reconcile that with the everydayness of life and for me it was so important, I would not have been able to wrap my head around it before I had kids. I wouldn’t have really had a reason to because conventional life and work because often work is the same but seeing my kids when they were younger and the choices they made, it was so different.
A big one for me was them not getting worked up or upset about mistakes. They were just like, ‘oh, that didn’t work the way I thought’ and then they would just try something else. Whereas, I’d be like, ‘oh my gosh I hope nobody saw that. I’m going to go over here and pretend I didn’t know it happened.’ Those pieces that I learned growing up just because being judged and graded was hard. That’s why I was always so driven to do the right thing, to find out what the right answer was and to do the right thing.
So yes, pulling back these layers around this was paradigm shifting for me. Mistakes don’t have to be a bad thing. I do learn a lot. Maybe I was missing some information. Maybe I just need more practice with that skill. I’m learning so much each time and I actually learn more when I can get messier. Often I would just keep trying to input, input, input until I find the right perfect answer before I actually ever take any action. I think it’s so interesting.
ANNA: I think we all have very different personalities and so there’s different aspects of this but I really agree with what you said Pam. If we didn’t have kids I don’t know that I would have gotten this in the same way because for me it was a system to crack. I knew how to perform in school to get what I needed to get. The A’s, the thing, the whatever. And like you said, it transferred to jobs and different things but I really do feel like it was so blown open by having kids.
They just had this natural piece about them of just, we make mistakes. They figure things out. They’re learning. When they’re learning how to walk and talk and do from the very beginning, it’s this really natural human process of learning. There was just something about the way my brain works and being fascinated by it which I think we all have in common. We like to tease out these nuances. It’s like, oh there’s a different way, this isn’t it. That’s a system. Humans actually are okay to learn and be messy and figure out these things and so I love that piece.
Then I love what you said Erika, at the end, when you were giving us the list of the different things because what that really brought out for me was that reminder that unschooling or coming to this way of life is this little door we walk through and then there’s this huge world on the other side. There are all the different things that it applies to. So, those mistakes and not being perfect and being messy, it just applies to everything and then suddenly it is this gigantic paradigm shift of everything that I thought was one way has lots of options and is so different than that and so yeah I just loved all of those pieces so much.
PAM: Okay, ready for this one? One of the most life-changing things I think that I have learned over the past ten years is that my child’s independence isn’t a meaningful measure of either my child as a person or me as a parent. And to take that a step further I’ve come to think that not only is it not a meaningful measure, holding it as a goal on our parenting journey can be actively harmful.
I have been thinking about this a while before mentioning it to you guys. I was thinking more the other day, I was curious and I cracked open my first book “Free to Learn: five ideas for a joyful unschooling life”, which I published back in 2012. I skimmed the table of contents and sure enough in the last chapter, idea five, living together, which is kind of this whole consensual piece we were talking about, but the title of the last section jumped out at me. “Moving on out”, so I quickly flipped to that page and there it was in black and white what I had written about preparing my kids for eventually moving out on their own as an important goal I see for myself as a parent. But the goal is not that my children move out as soon as possible, it is to have supported and helped them gain the knowledge and skills that will help make the transition to living on their own as trouble-free as possible.
How many of us started our parenting journey having absorbed that implicit goal of raising independent adults with the ultimate achievement of that goal being our children moving out. I mean, I certainly did so we began unschooling in 2002 and it’s interesting to see that 10 years into my unschooling journey when I wrote that book my perspective had shifted away from looking at that goal through the lens of the conventional agenda of moving out at 18. Like once you’re an adult, you move out and I shifted towards supporting them on their own timetable. So, I didn’t have that timetable anymore but still the assumption of quote unquote “moving out” was still implicit in my words.
So, in the last 10 years I learned one that moving out is not synonymous with independence and two that using the goal of fostering my child’s independence as context for my everyday parenting choices was actually getting in the way of not only my relationships with them but also in them developing their own self-awareness and hearing their own inner voice, understanding themselves better.
So, basically the choices I was making with an eye on that idea of fostering their independence we’re missing so much of the relevant context about them as a person and what was happening in the moment because I was kind of fixated on that future independence. I came to realize that what meant more to me was the idea of interdependence, of our lives weaving together and supporting each other as needed, no matter our ages or where any one of us happens to call home at the moment.
That paradigm shift had and of course continues to have a profound impact on my relationships with my kids and you can see this revelation unfold for me over the last 10 years of the podcast from episode 96 when Anna first introduced me to that phrase ‘independence agenda’ to episode 365 where the three of us just discussed it directly in more depth. To me it was just such a valuable shift that I learned that continues to have such an impact and that I just feel more and more deeply every year. I’ve had conversations with my kids about what does it prove when you move out? How does that prove that you’re independent? Versus the interdependence of living together that has just brought us so much more joy but also so much more knowing of each other, knowing of ourselves. Instead of all that external framework of trying to prove yourself, knowing yourself it’s just so much more meaningful I think moving forward. So, that was a big one for me.
ANNA: It’s such a big one and you know I do get excited because I just wanted to name it and we have named it over the years, this independence agenda because it is so strong in our culture. It starts with babies being moved to their own room. So, it is so interesting to just bring awareness to it so that you can watch for it because again when I think about who I want to be in the world and what’s important to me, it is that interdependence that you’re talking about. It’s that connection, that’s what makes being a human rich to me. Learning about myself, learning about others. So, this artificial agenda that’s handed to us. And it’s so culturally specific. There are many cultures where that isn’t the goal at all and so that’s always interesting too think of this as a have to, we have to make them independent, we have to be moving towards this and yet other cultures don’t even consider that.
I think it’s really interesting. And when we talk about how different we all are, which we’ll be talking about over the month too, it’s recognizing that when our kids are making that choice from inside of them, listening to that inner voice that it’s so different because they may very well have a drive to go off and explore the world or do different things and they may come back and they may not. They may be able to live their whole complete life altogether because again it doesn’t have to look one way. I think that’s the beauty of this life is just like getting rid of what isn’t serving me. No, what do we want to do, as the people here involved in this home and I don’t know that just opens up a lot of possibilities that I think are really beautiful. I do think this was a really big one so yeah I really appreciate you sharing that.
ERIKA: I love that part about how you can see it unfold over the course of the podcast. I just think that’s so fun and amazing that you have records of yourself saying, “This is what I believe now,” and then how that has changed over the years.
But I think, again, it’s like that fish in the water thing where you didn’t even know it was an assumption that you were carrying. It’s just a fact of our culture that you don’t even realize that there are other possibilities. And so, I feel like when that happens, when it’s something that’s so part of us that we don’t even realize we have that thought. We really only confront it either with help from someone who has realized it or when we bump up against problems in our own family. Like, they’re not moving out. Something’s wrong. And then it’s like, oh wait. Is something wrong? And then we can go through that process of questioning, is this really something that is mandatory?
And I thought of that cultural piece, too, because, right, it really is also so specific to what culture you’re in, what messages you’ve learned through your whole life. And I think once we’ve become adults in this culture, we’ve been exposed to that message so many times it just feels like, well this is literally what everyone does. But if we start thinking about it, it’s not what everyone does. Everyone has their own context.
And kind of like my perfection one, too, there’s not a perfect time to move out. There’s not a perfect age to feel like you’re a grown-up. It’s just these weird cultural things that, once you start seeing it, once you start questioning it, it just all kind of falls apart. And it’s like, okay, really anything is possible. We can just look at, who is this person? What do they want? What is their context? What feels like the next step to them?
And then it really to me is like, when you talk about the web of learning, you don’t want to be throwing them to the other side of their web of learning when they haven’t gotten there themselves. And so, developing independence in various areas of their life, it’s going to look so different for every person. And I just love that I’m not even to that age yet. And I already have been thinking about this. I just feel really grateful for that.
PAM: I love the piece of not throwing them across the web of learning, their understanding of the world. And watching them unfold on their own path and on their own timetable is just so beautiful. Because when you take that moment, it really is them and all about them.
And as they’re figuring things out, that’s beautiful. And I think we’ll probably be talking about this a lot more, but I loved Anna, you mentioned, and this is such a great example, that unschooling is a window to like the world, like to all these pieces.
When you start, because now you’re actually living together, right? You’re actually in relationship, rather than more often moving just from thing to thing to thing, right? So all these questions start to bubble up. Once you look at a little bit bigger picture than just all the things start to come into focus. It was such a great point, Erika, that it wasn’t even something that we had consciously made a choice about, or that we even knew was an assumption that we were carrying.
It was just like this fundamental fact of life, it felt like. But you’re right too, about it being cultural. For my husband, who’s Italian, that wasn’t a big thing. Moving out at any particular age wasn’t a thing at all.
So, all those little pieces, we start building our own web, our own wisdom and context around an idea. It’s just so beautiful.
Anyway, thank you both so much. Thank you for sharing your reflections about what you’ve learned on this amazing journey, and we will be talking about lots more as the rest of the month unfolds. And thank you to everyone listening, whether you’re listening in your podcast feed or watching on YouTube, we appreciate you joining us. So in our next episode, we’ll be diving into the question of what has changed for us.
And we invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network. As we mentioned in the last episode, we are now offering a free month trial, so you can come check it out and just see if it’s a good fit for you. And if you enjoy our podcast conversations, that’s probably a good sign that it just might be.
So to learn more and join us, just follow the link in the show notes or go to our website, livingjoyfully.ca. And we wish everyone a lovely day. Thanks so much to you both. Bye.
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We’re back with another On the Journey episode! We had a wonderful conversation with Living Joyfully Network member Jenna-Gaye Hollis. Jenna is a mom of four living in Australia. Her sons are 17, 16, 14, and 9, and she shared some of her unschooling journey with us.
Before having children, Jenna was a teacher. Her first son, Jye, pretty much fit the mold of what she was expecting parenting to be like, but it was Jenna’s second son, Haize, who really brought unschooling to the family. When school just wasn’t working out for him, Jenna discovered unschooling and it really spoke to her heart. So much fun and learning have blossomed from that point!
We talked about navigating big transitions as a family, leaning on the support of other unschooling parents in the Living Joyfully Network, especially when fears bubble up, and some of the a-ha moments that Jenna has had along her journey so far. It was a really beautiful discussion and we hope you find it helpful!
Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube.
THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODEWe invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network, a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents. It’s a non-judgmental space where you can steep in these unconventional ideas around parenting, relationships, and learning, and explore what they might look like day-to-day in your uniquely wonderful family. We offer a free month trial so you can see if it’s a good fit for you. Click here to join us.
Sign up to our mailing list on Substack to receive our email newsletters as well as new articles about learning, parenting, and so much more!
Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about exploring unschooling and navigating relationships.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPTANNA: Hello everyone, I’m Anna Brown from Living Joyfully and I’m joined today by my co-hosts Erika Ellis and Pam Laricchia, as well as our special guest today, Jenna Hollis. Hello to you all. And before we dive in, I want to mention that the Living Joyfully Network is celebrating six years in February.
It has been and continues to be the most amazing space with intentional families from all over the world sharing their journeys. And recently we’ve been hearing some from new members that they were kind of sitting on the fence and not sure about joining, but now they’re loving it and they wish they had joined sooner. So to help people hop off that fence, we are now offering a free trial month.
That way you can see for yourself what a warm inviting space it is, filled with resources and connections. You can learn more about that opportunity in the show notes, or you can also go to livingjoyfully.ca and the link will be on the homepage.
I am very excited about Jenna joining us today. She has been a longtime member on the Living Joyfully Network, and it has been such a treat sharing in her journey and getting to know her family. Her generous spirit, deep reflections, and ability to articulate her personal journey has sparked so many aha moments for all of us. And I think it’s going to be really fun to share her beauty and insights with our podcast audience. So welcome, Jenna.
And to get us started, I was wondering if you could just tell us a little bit about you and your family, what everybody’s into right now. And we’d love to just hear a bit about your story of coming to Unschooling.
JENNA: Yeah, no problem. First of all, I’m excited to be here. This has been such a big resource in my life. And I just don’t think I would be where I am today without it. It’s just that real life line that keeps me true to this journey, that has not been easy by any means. But what makes it easier is it’s our journey.
And anyway, I’ll jump into talking about my family. I’m married to Leon. He’s my childhood sweetheart, I’ve been with Leon since I was 15. And yeah, we’ve really grown together. You think you get married and you’ve got it all worked out. And it’s like, no, this journey is always under construction. That is for sure.
So, we’ve got four boys. We’ve got Jye, who will be 18 in April. Haize, who is 16. Blair, 14. And our youngest, Leeton, who will be 10 in a couple of weeks. And that makes up our beautiful, loud, dynamic family. And we are all very different. You kind of think you’ve got it worked out before you even have kids, or I know I definitely did.
I was a teacher before I became a parent. So I had this idea that I just knew exactly what I was walking into. And then we have one child and Jye was that child that kind of fit that idea of what it meant to raise children.
And I’ll talk a little bit about Jye. He, at the moment, he’s right into his football, like absolutely loves his footy. He’s actually living down in Sydney, predominantly with my husband, because we made a big move three and a half hours from where we raised our family over the past sort of 15 years.
And so, he’s down in Sydney, and he’s really getting right into his football. He had an amazing year last year, found an awesome team that was really aligned, the same attitude, they just wanted to just get better and better. And so that’s where a lot of his focus is going this year.
And he’s also doing his electrical trade. He decided to follow in his dad’s footsteps and give that a real go. And he’s really loving that.
And so he’ll be actually going into his third year of his apprenticeship halfway through this year, which is just like, what, how did that happen? How did we get here? But he’s there, he’s really stepping into his own, and living down in Sydney away from us. It wasn’t an easy decision. But it’s been the best decision, because he’s just he has his mates down here, he’s got a girlfriend down here. And he just loves being down here. And at the same time, when he comes up and stays with us, he really enjoys that time too. He gets right into his fishing. So that’s another one of his interests.
And then moving on to Haize, who is our 16-year-old, and he’s the one who actually brought us to the unschooling pathway. When I had Haize, he was a child that shook up all of my ideas of what it meant to raise children. You know, because he’s just his own, his own little spirit, who literally cannot live outside of what is right for him.
I feel like Jye is very peripherally aware, very much aware of what pleases other people. And he doesn’t sacrifice himself for that. But he very much is in tune with, okay, how is this person wanting me to do X, what ticks off other people’s boxes, whilst also staying true to himself. And then Haize came along, and he’s just this, he’s just so in tune with who he is and what he wants, you know, the decisions he wants to make at any given moment.
And so we did start in the school system. The school system fit Jye really well. He’s a real people person, loves being around lots of different people, and just fit that system quite well.
But then as Haize was getting older, I was like, I don’t know about how this is going to work. He just runs his own show. Anyway, we gave it a real good go.
And it wasn’t until we got to year two, and he had such an amazing teacher. He had some great friends. But he just wasn’t happy. You could just see that light dimming in him. And I just knew that I had to look for an alternative option. And so we went down the route of a Steiner school as well.
And that was okay to begin with. But then I discovered unschooling, and it just spoke so deeply to my own heart that I just could not, not follow it. And that’s where I really came to understand Haize as a person who like, when something speaks so deeply to you, you can’t not do it.
It’s a bit like once you know something, you can’t unknow it. And it’s like, once you start to tap into making decisions from that place, living in alignment with who you are, you can’t not do it. Anyway, he was the one that brought us here.
As a kid, he was always outside, always playing with bugs, always catching spiders, you know, and he still loves all those things. He loved fishing. But as he’s gotten older, he’s gone through this real cocooning phase. And he’s gotten right into his gaming. And I’ve been sitting back and really watching and aiming to understand that as opposed to judging it, accepting that this was a big part of his life. And it was a really challenging thing for me to do. You know, he’s this kid that was so outdoorsy and so into everything. And then all of a sudden, it changes. And I think we get so many messages about gaming that that doesn’t help.
But once I stripped all of that away, and took the time to actually understand what it was that he was drawn to, it makes total sense. He is that immersive learner, he learns through his whole body, doing whatever it is. And so I was watching him play all these different games, and then seeing how that marries up with the things that he does out in the real world as well.
So, it’s just another way of exploring those interests. Like he loves target shooting, and he loves roleplay. I watch how all of my kids interact with each other. And they just love roleplaying and getting really into the story. My kids have never been the sit there and read a book kind of kid, as much as the teacher in me would have loved that.
They just were not those kinds of kids. But then when you watch your kids in a natural environment, you really come to understand who they are. And you see the threads throughout their whole life.
So that’s Haize, he’s definitely the one that brought us here. And I’m so grateful that he did that and that I was able to undo a lot of my already predetermined thinking. All of which has led me to this place where I have learned a lot about myself.
And so I’ll move on to Blair. Blair is my 14-year-old. And I am so in awe of the changes that this child has made. He too went to school to begin with, and he was a kid, well even as a baby, he was that real kind of anxious kid who was always watching where I was. He never left my side. You know, I’m going to the shopping centre and always lose things. Turn around. And then I’ve got Blair, who’s always by my side, always clinging to me, just didn’t have that confidence about him. And then he went to school as well, because that’s what we were doing back at that time. And I think he spent every day of kindergarten clinging to the fence, crying. When I think about it, that’s probably the biggest regret that I have is that I persevered through that for the whole year of kindergarten.
But now looking at him, giving him that environment where he was just free to be himself. He was able to really develop that ground of confidence. Like, you watch him in conversations with people, and he just has this, this confidence in who he is.
There’s none of this, you know, self promoting, like, it’s really hard to describe, but when you watch your kid’s journey, and you see how much they just grow into who they are, it’s really cool to just go, far out, I don’t need to do anything other than provide that environment that really allows them to grow into more of who they are.
So Blair has gotten back into his basketball. He’s always been my more gaming kid. He’s always been right into his technology, which, in the beginning, I couldn’t really understand, because Leon and I are not tech people whatsoever. But Blair would always have an iPad in his hand, was always into gaming more than anyone else. But as he has grown older, that’s become less and less in his life, and he’s more into his acting, loves to do stage performances, which is something Haize loves to do as well.
We’ve joined this stage production company up where we live now, and the boys have really gravitated towards that. It’s just a really nurturing environment that has allowed them to just step into that confidence. It was probably shaken a little bit with the move, like it was such a big move, which I’ll talk about a little bit later on.
But finding that nurturing environment that allows them to just, again, be who they already are is just so, so pivotal.
Both boys this weekend are actually doing some paintball training. They both really enjoy their paintball training sessions and games and things. And Blair’s actually interested in going back to school this year, so that’s something that we’re in the process of exploring as well. And yeah, I’m excited to see how that journey unfolds for him, however long that goes for.And then that brings us to Leeton, my youngest, who I would say has been the luckiest to get sort of the more evolved parent in myself, that’s for sure. You really see that in the conversations that you have with Leeton. He’s just, oh, you cannot not see your own BS behavior, that’s for sure. He really reflects back at you, like he questions you.
He’s like, okay, but mum, you said this, why are you doing this? And it’s just really cool to see this child who is so young, but just has all of these critical thinking that apparently, kids don’t supposedly develop until whatever age it is that the experts decide. And so what I’ve seen with him, because we’ve been on this pathway for pretty much most of his life, is that he’s an active thinker in his own life.
He’s had the opportunities to have a say as opposed to being spoken to. He too is very much interested in going back to school this year and has just started to take an interest in reading, which has been a really interesting journey for me to be on with Leeton, letting go of that whole idea of kids need to learn this skill at the age that most kids in school are expected to learn it. And just allowing him the space to come to it in his own time has been really cool to watch.
He gets excited about picking up a book now to further develop that skill. And I’m like, how many kids actually even get that opportunity to have that excitement for these things? So that’s something that he’s definitely into at the moment.
He’s also loving his basketball. I find that he tends to sort of pick up the things that his older brothers are interested in, which is really cool, right? Because then it brings a shared interest where they’re spending this quality time together over those shared interests. He’s also loved gaming.
That’s becoming a little bit less and less. You can sort of see Leeton going through this stage at the moment where he’s trying to work out where he wants to go next. He’s getting a little bit bored with the gaming aspect of things.
But he absolutely loves it when the boys step into this role playing and they get their Nerf guns and just muck around. And it’s so cool to see that a 16 and a 14 year old are still doing that sort of role play. I have seen kids let go of that because it’s just, I just feel like we make them grow up way too quick. And so it’s just really cool to see them in that, in that natural environment and just being free to be who they already are.
And then that brings me to myself and Leon, because we also have interests. I think sometimes we forget, hang on a minute, adults also have interests and it’s been really cool. We bought a 50 acre property up on the mid north coast and my husband has always spoken about farm life and has always spoken about how he’s wanted a farm.
Not quite 12 months ago, we ended up purchasing a 50-acre farm, which actually came on the back end of my 14 year old Blair’s interests. He wanted to get into acting. And so that took us further up to the coast and we’d have to stay overnight when they needed to be in this particular location for consecutive days.
And so we’d go stay at a farm-stay and then we ended up finding this area that we really loved. It’s interesting to see how each of our interests are then coming to blend together to become the life that we’re living now. And so going back to my husband, that’s something that’s been a huge interest of his. Seeing him up on his new playground, it’s just, I don’t know, you can tell when someone becomes just light again. And that’s what it’s like when Leon is on the farm and is problem solving, like, where is the water naturally running? How are we going to organize the paddocks? Because we’re going to get cattle and, so it’s really cool to kind of go, yeah, we are all human beings. We all have interests. We’re not just here to work, to generate an income for our family that then dictates our whole life.
Well, that’s what it was for Leon, for sure. It just became all consuming that we kind of forget that we’re more than just that. And so we’ve started to make these decisions that are changing the priorities and that’s what’s led to the big move. I’ll speak more about that a little bit later.
And then finally myself, obviously an interest is definitely unschooling. When I came across the unschooling podcast, I couldn’t wait until the next episode came out. And I was constantly checking when the next episode was going to come in and now I’m part of the Network and have been for a few years. So it’s a matter of just waiting for the next week. And I wonder what the next weekly focus call is going to be. And I just love it. It really keeps me constantly evolving and moving through those things that could potentially hold me back.
So, that’s definitely an interest of mine. I also have an interest in interior decorating. We’ve renovated our house down here in Sydney that we’ve got on the market to sell. I loved that process.
We’re going to be doing some Airbnb stays. So I get to zhuzh up the different places that we’ve bought. And I just love that whole thing of working out which pieces will work really well in this room and what kind of feeling it’s going to give to the people who stay here.
So, that’s definitely an interest of mine. And also starting to tap into the potential of writing my own book, which I feel like it has been percolating over the last sort of 10 years and just capturing all of those beautiful golden nuggets, a lot of it comes from being part of the network. But I’m going to stop talking because there’s a lot of people to cover.
PAM: I do just love that. I loved your point about how things weave together and it’s not something you can predict and it’s not something you can set up. But when you’re open and you’re supporting each person as the individual they are and just helping them explore, it is so fascinating just to see where things weave together.
Because it is surprising, I guess maybe just surprising to me, but so many things that feel independent are quite rooted in just being human. And so often there are overlaps that you see and it really just helps bring me back to the like, we’re all humans moving through this world. So yes, that’s the nice thing about that question and about the details because that’s where we have space to see the bigger picture than just, I support this kid and I support that kid, but we’re a family.
That comes together when we support the individuals as well. You are individuals in this family. And when we all do the things that we love, and we’re doing them side by side and connected with one another, they just come together in such fascinating ways.
JENNA: Absolutely. And as someone who is has lived that world of, feeling like I needed to be the one that transformed these children into these upstanding citizens, so to speak, to moving to this place of actually taking a step back, and understanding who they are, and finding those elements, if you will, that allows them to just be more of who they are. What a way easier pathway to parent from. Oh my goodness, when I think about all the things that I used to try to control, no wonder I was so exhausted all the time.
It’s such a load that we carry as, as mums and as dads, and just feeling like we are responsible for how these people turn out. And it’s just realizing that all they need is just a little bit of love and support. And they find their own way.
And I could not plan this out if I tried. And in fact, the more of a plan that I have for other people, the more I come to the same point where I realize that, oh, that wasn’t for me to plan for. Because that’s not my life. Plan for your own life for sure. But hold those plans really loosely.
Because these other people are people and they’ve got different ideas on how they move through the world, and what the next step is that they want to take in their life. And by holding that really loosely, you become a lot more flexible and more open to taking in information that you otherwise wouldn’t know.
ERIKA: I just loved that. And it was so fun to hear, Jenna, because I feel like I didn’t know that part of your story about your move to unschooling. So that was fun to hear. And I especially loved accepting each person as their unique individual person, and how much easier it makes parenting when we’re not trying to fit them into these particular boxes.
I loved all of that. Your family has made some big transitions in the past couple of years, which you’ve been alluding to. And so my question is, how has this way of life impacted your choices, and helped you navigate all the ups and downs of those transitions?
JENNA: Yeah, well, like I said, at the beginning of the call, I definitely don’t think we would be where we are today if I hadn’t been on this pathway, that’s for sure. It’s not even hard saying it’s a pathway because it’s not a predetermined pathway.
I feel like a lot of the time we’re seeing all these pathways, this is the pathway to get you here. And really, it’s just this unfolding of your own pathway. And so what being immersed in this kind of way of living has done for me is really opened up my thinking. Where you start to see all of the possibilities, where I would have otherwise seen that there was either this way, or there’s that way.
But there’s so much in between. If we just step outside of the ‘have tos’, I think that’s a big part of transforming, forming those ‘have tos’ into really discovering what the ‘want tos’ are. And I think we also have these ideas. I know you spoke about this in the last podcast, these paradigms, the spectrum of things, of right and wrong and realizing there’s so much in the middle.
And that’s where the juice is. I think sometimes we think that, okay, well, how do we get all of our ‘want tos’ met? Well, if you’re going to get your ‘want to’, then I’m not going to get my ‘want to’. And it’s like, no, it’s realizing that when you come together, and you also open up the conversations for your kids to be part of that, whether it’s them actually talking, or whether it’s them showing you through their actions, what’s important to them. By really taking in all of those pieces, we get to this place where you end up really allowing everyone to live according to their ‘want tos’. So, that was a big thing, shifting from the ‘have tos’ to the ‘want tos’.
Also, with that came the flexible thinking, you know, actually being able to, have a plan, like we had a plan of selling a house, and all moving together up the coast where we bought our three bedroom unit, that was kind of our transitional move. We knew that there needed to be a transitional move that would allow us to start to recreate this new way of living, but also get to know where we wanted to buy that bigger parcel of land where we were going to create our own little farm from. And so, yeah, the plan was that we would sell our home, but our home didn’t sell.
And we’d already bought our unit, and interest rates started to climb. And so we got to this point where we were like, we need to do something, we cannot sustain this. And so this is where we turned to, and it just came to me one weekend, I was like, what if we rent out our house, with the option of the people renting to buy, that was like, okay, this might work, because I don’t know what it’s like over in the US, but in Australia, the market, the housing market, really became very unstable.
And so this is where we moved to this whole idea of, okay, well, let’s rent out our house, we’ll make the move up to the unit. And we’ll just see how that goes. And so without going into too much detail, when I’m talking about flexible thinking, it’s about knowing where you’re heading.
But taking just that small step, and then being able to take in the new information that comes from that small step, to then take the next small step. And that might mean that what you thought was going to unfold may change. And so by having that flexible thinking, you’re able to move with the tides, whether that might be someone’s needs changing as well in the family, because, they might. Just just be open to all of the info, the new information that comes in with taking a new step.
Because if we would have waited for all of our ducks to be all in a line before we took action, we would never take action. It’s just about taking those small steps now, based on what you feel is the right move and then being open to the next lot of information coming in to decide the next step and the next step. So, definitely the flexible thinking has come from being on this unschooling pathway and all of the learning that I have gained from being open in my thinking to adjust those beliefs and those associated behaviors that are driven by those beliefs that may have served me in the past but were not serving me in the here and now. And so being able to look at those and work out, okay, does that stand true with where I am now?
Being able to change that thinking that then creates a whole new bunch of behaviors. So that’s definitely something that this pathway or this way of living has helped. And also being able to even hear your own heart, just hear what your own heart is telling you.
I feel like the life that I used to live was so busy, just busy doing, busy being busy, just constantly doing, doing, doing, doing, doing that you don’t take the time to stop and actually think, is this the kind of life that I want to be living? I remember with the kids being at school, I felt like I was marching soldiers off every day and was like ch-ch-ch-ch-ch. Like, oh my goodness, is this really what I signed up for?
Is this really how I want to be a mum? Where I am controlling these other human beings down this particular pathway that I personally see time and time again?
I look at a lot of adults who are just living life because they have to, not because they’ve had the time to really work out if this is what they want. And on top of that, then having the courage to follow through. Because it’s one thing to know what you want, but having the courage to actually step into, to step outside of the familiar zone and do something different, it takes a lot of courage and it takes a lot of support that you may not necessarily have already in the environment that you’re in.
Our loved ones and our friends, we all mean well, but if we don’t have the skills of even pure listening, a lot of the time you’ll go to a loved one with a problem that you’re having, and then there’s this whole idea that you’re going to them because you want them to solve your problem. And unless you take the time to really reflect on, well, when you’re sharing something with someone, what do you want in that space? And all you’re wanting is to be heard so that you can find your own solutions.
But a lot of the time, a lot of us haven’t had that model to us first and foremost, or haven’t developed the skills to just be able to sit there and listen and ask the right questions for people to get to their own answers. So I hope that answers the question.
ANNA: Yeah, I think it’s really cool because people can think, oh, unschooling or whatever, it’s very focused on kids and education. But I think that what you said really spoke to how it opens up this whole new world of, hey, how do we feel? What serves us?
Let’s look at this, let’s pivot, let’s figure these different things out. And I think that’s something that’s hard to explain to people until you’re in it, that it just opens up everything. So yeah, I really loved that.
JENNA: Yeah, absolutely. And I feel like in today’s world, particularly, I know in my world, they talk about kids of today finding it so hard because of social media. And I’m like, yeah, it’s so challenging for adults, too. Because we have all of this information telling us that this is the right way, that’s the right way.
And so we’re constantly bombarded with information. But the only information that really matters is the information that sits within you, no one has lived your experience. And so it’s so important to be able to get back to that space where you’re taking what you’re hearing with a grain of salt, but coming back to what feels true to you and what you’re seeing in your own family, as opposed to taking the information that we’re presented with. Whether it be about gaming, right.
And then we start to fit our situation to that information. And then all of a sudden, we’re coming in and we’re switching the game off and telling our kids to get outside or whatever it is. So, it’s being able to take that information with a grain of salt, but really coming back to the information that matters most. And that’s the information that sits within inside of us. And yeah, and then having the courage to act on that information. It’s not easy by any means, but it’s definitely worth the journey.
PAM: Yeah, I feel that you had mentioned earlier too, that listening piece. When we’re moving through things, because you were talking about big transitions, and to be able to listen to others is quite a skill because so often, especially during big times like that, we kind of know the general direction that we want to go, so to be able to give that space for listening, I think is just so valuable because we learn so much.
And then we’re able to, like you said, take that next little baby step. Even if we don’t know exactly how we’re going to get to that destination that we have in mind, that direction we want to go, taking that little baby step is just so much more helpful, just because like we’ve listened, we’ve understood what other people’s perspectives are. And then coming together to just choose that next little baby step so that we can learn more. We learn more each time. So I think that’s super interesting.
You have just been so gracious in sharing your perspective on these things. And I love when you come with aha moments so often in the network as you move through this. But now you were talking about big transitions, and how you like to move through those. I’m curious if you would talk a bit more about how you process through times when older fears bubble up.
You kind of alluded to what I expected to be as a parent, etc. But so often as we come up, we think things are going well, and then something changes, or we notice that, or we hear a voice of what society’s telling us. I find for myself, anyway, that those can spark older fears that I’ve been carrying.
And I didn’t know about it until we’re facing this, this moment. I hadn’t really thought about that before. And then there’s all this stuff bubbling up. So, it’s another whole process to move through that. I was wondering if you would share a little bit of your process.
JENNA: Yeah, absolutely. Well, when I think about the Network, this is where it becomes so invaluable. We all have a nervous system. It’s designed to keep us safe. So, for you to create something different, it requires you to step outside of that, we call it the comfort zone, which I don’t think is a very good term for it, because it’s not comfortable. It’s not comfortable, but it’s familiar, right?
And so the moment you try to step outside of that, you get these alarm bells. And as you’re going on the journey, and you’re putting those alarm bells at bay, because you’re starting to take those small steps, and you start to realize that you didn’t die from taking that one small step, your nervous system starts to relax into it. But then you might be having a conversation with a friend who is talking about how they do things, or this expert over here is saying, children need to have x amount of time outside or whatever it is.
And then all of a sudden, that comes in. And then you’re questioning your decisions, your old fears start to bubble. And so by being part of the Network, I’m able to bring those fears.
And we were able to really go deep into them, and start to see it from different perspectives, because it’s realizing that’s all transformation is, it’s being able to shift the perspective that’s creating the fear to seeing it from a different perspective, where you get those aha moments. And then before you know it, you’re still coming up against those messages, but you’re so grounded in your own decisions. Because you see the other perspective, you see that there’s nothing to be afraid of here.
There’s nothing, that it’s all part of the journey. And I actually see it now as an invitation, whenever those things pop up, it’s an invitation just to look at things a little bit more deeply. And so when I get those feelings, which naturally, I’ve had lots of them, continuously stepping out of my familiar zone, and doing things, I guess, a little against the grain from the world that I’ve been brought up in.
And so being able to bring those fears to the Network, and sometimes I’ll find if I’m in the thick of it, I don’t necessarily want to be out, I don’t want to talk about it. But just being able to listen to other people’s shares, it brings on that feeling like, me too, like, I’m not alone in this. Oh, yes.
And then you beautiful ladies with all of your wisdom, and how you do it is just so nurturing, you’re always validating whatever it is that we’re bringing. And then you’re offering your own experiences or experiences that you’ve had with other people who you’ve worked with, to help us get to this place where all of a sudden you sink back into your own reasons for doing things. So, you might have been swept away with someone else’s agenda or whatever the message is. But then you’re brought back into your own reasons for making the choices that you are.
And it just brings you a sense of calm. So, whenever I have a fear coming up, and strangely enough, I’ll have those sorts of things pop up. If I’m going to catch up with people from even my family, I sometimes worry that I’m being judged. And so my brain gets into, okay, well, if someone asked me why Leeton isn’t reading yet, what am I going to say? And so I get myself worked up because I’m thinking I’m getting judged because I have done this horrible thing, where I haven’t forced my child to learn something at a time when someone else wants him to learn it. And so like, how am I going to hold that conversation without trembling.
So I get myself so worked up. It’s funny how our thoughts can kind of spiral. And so what I would typically do before I’m going to a big event, or where I feel like my confidence is shaking a little, I’ll just listen to a podcast, or I’ll jump on and listen to one of the weekly focus calls from the network. And all of a sudden, I just found my grounding again.
And so what that does when I’m interacting with other people, I don’t even get those conversations coming up. Because really, the people that are in our life that may be living differently, they’ve only got concerns, because they’re looking to us. And if we’re not looking like we’re sure of what we’re doing, naturally, they want to help.
And so their form of help is pulling you back to the familiar zone, like come back over to this side, where we all live, and we all grind, and we all live our life by a bunch of have tos, as opposed to want tos. When I’m grounded, I find that then those conversations don’t come out, I’m not questioning myself. So, in answering your question, Pam, when those fears bubble up, it’s just having that space to be able to come and explore those in a really non-judgmental space.
But also to have them validated, which is a skill that I’m still working on. I’m still not that fantastic at it. It’s not that I’m not fantastic at it, it’s something that I’ve really had to work at. And I just think that when people validate you and just appreciate your experience of things, instead of coming in and sharing their experience, and feeling like they have to try and solve your problem, the weight gets lifted off your shoulders and you can find your grounding again. You can become centered, where you’re hearing what next step is right for you.
So yeah, that’s definitely how I deal with those times. I mean, it’d be nice to think that they don’t pop up, but they pop up, but that’s where the juice is, that’s where all the learning is. When things become shaky, and you start to become aware of those things that are ready for you to transform and to liberate you to the next level of being able to move forward in your life.
ERIKA: I love that last bit, because that was just what I was thinking. It still happens to everyone too. Fears coming up again is such a part of life. And so, I love how you described the feeling of just being validated, grounding back into yourself. It just makes such a huge difference.
It makes such a huge difference, even just to hear your fears out loud in front of someone else. There’s something about that processing and putting it into words. Because sometimes it feels so big inside of our brains as we’re ruminating and going over and over these fears. But as soon as we start to try to express them out loud, I think that’s step one of the process of releasing them. And yeah, I love how the Network is that for me, as well, like grounding back into myself.
PAM: I have to point out about validation, because it is a skill. And it is always work. But for me, it eventually gets to a point where, if that’s how somebody’s feeling and seeing a situation, that’s reality. That’s the way it is. So, it’s not like you’re validating something that’s made up or something that’s wild. This other person, this wonderful person in front of you, is feeling that and is seeing things that way.
So, to be able to meet someone there, I feel like on both sides, it’s just so helpful as a person doing the validating. It’s so helpful to me because that’s the learning. That’s where I’m expanding. It’s like, oh, wow, I couldn’t have even imagined seeing that moment or seeing this thing in this way. That is so interesting to me. Thank you so much for sharing.
And not to get off on a tangent, but one of the challenging things I think for people is thinking that, if I validate that, especially if they’re having a hard time, it’s like I’m saying that that is also how I’m seeing it. There’s such a difference.
And I think it doesn’t feel as validating if you’re meeting them exactly where they are, like, oh yeah, I see that too. That’s exactly how I see it. Because so often, it’s their unique experience, which is a culmination of who they are in this moment and the context of things going on for them and whatever situation you’re discussing. They’re a unique human being, so they’re going to see it in their unique way. So, to be able to meet them there is just super helpful, but helpful on both ends, I think.
JENNA: Absolutely. And what I found has helped me, because somewhere along the lines, I decided it was my responsibility for everything and everyone.
Somewhere I decided that I’m responsible for how other people process the world and I need to do something about it. And so what I found with validation, it helped me to detach myself from whatever was going on. So detaching from my husband having a response to something, the more I’m able to validate his experience, the less I felt like I was taking it on.
Because it’s just acknowledging that his experience is his experience. It has actually got nothing to do with me. Like, no offense, Jen, this ain’t to do with you.
Just focus on what’s happening here. And this is something that I get tripped on. I mean, I got tripped up on it last night, even.
And it’s just like, ah, validation, that’s right. And if you just use it, then everyone softens in the situation where then we feel open to be able to go deeper into whatever the issue is and find those magical solutions that allows us all to move forward. So yeah, validation is definitely key.
ANNA: I mean, you know I love validation. So huge. And I think what you both are really touching on is validation isn’t making it about us, right? It’s not getting defensive or making it about our experience. It really is just hearing, reflecting, giving space to that person to be really heard around what’s happening for them. I loved that piece.
Well, we are just so happy to have you here and just really appreciate you sharing these little bits of your journey. Thank you so, so much. And I hope everybody enjoyed the conversation and maybe had their own little a-ha moment or something that’s like, “wait a minute,” for their own journey, because they’re all so, so unique.
And if you enjoy these kinds of conversations, I really do think you’d love the Living Joyfully Network, because this is the kind of stuff we talk about and dig into all the time. It’s such an amazing group of people. So we invite you to check it out and see if it fits with our free month offer that I mentioned earlier. And you can find the link in the show notes or go to livingjoyfully.ca. and the link is on the homepage.
Thank you for listening. And thank all of you for being here. It was really, really a fun time, so thank you so much.
JENNA: Thank you for having me.
PAM: Thank you so much, Jenna. See you soon!
ERIKA: Thank you, Jenna!
ANNA: Bye!
JENNA: Yes. Bye!
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For this week’s episode, we’re sharing the next Foundations episode of the Living Joyfully Podcast with Pam and Anna, Polarizing Paradigms.
While it’s common to see things through the lens of right and wrong or good and bad and to look for someone or something to blame, these polarizing paradigms are damaging to relationships. Real relationships and real life are more nuanced. They exist in the gray area.
We hope today’s episode sparks some fun insights for you!
Listen to our conversation on YouTube.
THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODEWe invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network, a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents. It’s a non-judgmental space where you can steep in these unconventional ideas around parenting, relationships, and learning, and explore what they might look like day-to-day in your uniquely wonderful family. We offer a free month trial so you can see if it’s a good fit for you. Click here to join us.
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Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about exploring unschooling and navigating relationships.
EPISODE QUESTIONSHow does it feel when someone puts their ideas of right or wrong on you?Do you notice an area where polarizing paradigms are impacting an important relationship? How would it feel to let it go and lean in to understand?How do you feel when someone blames you for something and you don’t see it the same way?Have you seen judgment impact a relationship with someone you love?How would it feel to let go of black and white thinking and dig into the gray with the people in your life?TRANSCRIPTANNA: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. Thanks for tuning in to explore relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.
So, in today’s episode, we’re going to talk about moving beyond polarizing paradigms. Right/wrong, good/bad, blame/fault. These are all paradigms and it’s pretty interesting when you start exploring if they are serving us or hindering us in our relationships with others.
So, I love teasing apart the ideas of right and wrong, because on the surface, it seems like a simple and very useful concept. And I think it can be when it’s applied to our own personal journey. What feels right to me? What doesn’t feel right? How do I want to act in the world? Who is the person I want to be in the world?
It’s when we start to try to impose our ideas of right or wrong or act as if there’s one definition, one definitive definition, that it really just stops learning. Standing staunchly in what could feel like a very justifiable position stops learning. Instead, we can ask, why does someone have a certain belief or act in a certain way? Why do some people agree with it and others don’t? How can we move beyond that thought to start looking at the people involved?
And even more importantly, looking at the needs behind the behavior. What’s driving the behavior? What’s driving the action? And as we lean into that, we learn more about the person and perhaps gain new insights into the whole situation, insights we wouldn’t have seen had we stayed stuck in our position of there’s one right way.
And so, when we just look at behavior and judge it as right and wrong, we’re losing this chance to connect with the person in front of us, be that person, our child, a friend, our partner. We’re losing our chance to understand their motivation and the need behind it. And it’s in that place of refraining from judgment that we can choose connection and understanding. If the behavior is impacting us, I guarantee you the fastest way to stop it while still remaining connected is to address that underlying need. Because once the need is addressed, the offending behavior no longer serves a purpose and it just falls away.
PAM: Yes. Judging another person’s behavior is so often disconnecting, and that’s precisely because it’s a surface level perspective. Digging in to find the underlying need they are trying to address with that behavior hits so many more connecting notes between us.
We learn more about them. They feel more seen and heard. The challenging behavior fades. And there’s much less need for any relationship repair at the end of it all.
And another situation where the idea of right and wrong can cause upset in relationships is in how someone else chooses to do something. So, beyond behavior, is there really a right way to pack the dishwasher?
ANNA: Maybe!
PAM: Or to fold clothes or to play with a toy? Surely there are ways that are right for us. We absolutely have our preferences, but we can take that too far when we expect others to do things the same way that we do. It’s like when we expand “right for us” to mean “right period.”
Of course, sometimes those other ways just kind of grate on us, like utensils the wrong way up in the dishwasher. I have found it helpful in those moments to remind myself that the way they are doing it probably feels just as right to them as my way feels to me. That is always such a good reminder. I still use it all the time, just as a way to process.
And I also sometimes ask myself, well, if I believe that my way really is the best way, am I willing then to be the one who does the task? Or might I instead choose to be just grateful that someone else has done it? Either of those choices is more connecting in a relationship than trying to control another person’s actions. The relationship is my lens. It’s my priority. I’m also going to bring those considerations into my self-talk, into what I’m thinking about the situation or the rub that’s happening.
ANNA: And then it boils down to choices, too. Am I going to choose this dishwasher being loaded this way versus this relationship? Am I going to put that above? And so, I think it’s just really interesting to play with those ideas and really walk yourself through it, versus when we get stuck in that, “No, this is the way,” we have this shrapnel that has injured lots of people around us from that.
But it’s kind of the same, too, with the ideas of good and bad. So, again, that boils down to a judgment, often a snap judgment, of how something or someone fits into our ideas of how things should be. But we’re talking about humans here. As we’ve discussed before, humans are complex. They are different. And they absolutely resist fitting neatly into boxes.
So, if we go back to behavior and we label it as good or bad, we again lose sight of the need that they’re trying to meet. And we do it a lot with children. “You’re a good boy if you’re doing this thing I want you to do, and a bad boy if not.” So, you’re a good boy if you’re sitting still and being quiet and a bad boy if you’re fidgeting and making noise. But what if your whole body is telling you to move? What if you’ve been sitting for hours and you just can’t do it anymore?
If instead we look at the need, we don’t have to judge the person. We can help them figure out how to meet the need or to see if the environment is not the best place for them right now. And what that does is develop a person who doesn’t see themselves as good or bad based on outside opinions, but a person who can listen to their body, state their needs, and find solutions that work in the environments that they’re in.
PAM: Yeah. And for me, this, this whole area, it was a realization that people really are different, as we talked about in episode three, and I love that it keeps coming up in most episodes. That realization helped me ease up on judging other people through my personal lens of good and bad. I could see the choices that felt good to me didn’t necessarily feel good to others. And if I wanted to understand their perspective, I needed to learn more about what was going on.
And when I have relationships as my priority, I really do want to understand them better. These are my loved ones. These are the people I choose to have in my life. I really do want to understand them better. And I want to help them process through whatever is feeling off for them, finding solutions that feel good to them.
Again, in the context of those deeper connected relationships, the framework of good and bad is surface level and limiting. The real world is so much richer and messier all at the same time.
ANNA: So, much richer, so much messier. And like you said, that’s where the learning is, though. Sticking to cut-and-dry, one-right-way answers just shuts down learning and connection.
Another thing we do is we tend to judge situations as good or bad. And so, I’m just going to pop in a quick paraphrase of the Taoist farmer story who says that maybe might be a more useful idea? And so, to paraphrase, the farmer’s son lets out their one horse. The village says, “What bad luck!” “Maybe,” says the farmer. The horse returns with the herd of other horses. “What good luck!” they say. “Maybe,” says the farmer. The son breaks his leg working with one of the new horses. “What bad luck,” they say again. “Maybe,” says the farmer. The army comes to the neighborhood to conscript the young men. His son isn’t taken because of the broken leg.
So, life is filled with events. If we spend our time judging each one as it comes along, we take ourselves out of the moment. We don’t know how things will unfold, so let’s just face what’s in front of us without judgment. That keeps fear out of the equation. It keeps us squarely in the moment, and that is the only thing that we have control over anyway.
PAM: I love that point. When we’re judging all the things that are happening around us, that thinking takes us into our heads and it takes us out of the moment. And the other piece is, we lose our sense of flow, not literally flow moment to moment per se. But as the story tells us, flow over time. Things in the world are connected. That is another thing that culturally, we stumble around. We’re very much, “Here’s the thing in front of me today, going to do it efficiently, productively, it’s done, good, bad, however,” and then just move on to the next thing.
But there is a thread that connects so many moments over time and it’s so interesting just to keep that lens. It helps us realize we don’t need to judge all the things, because maybe it might be helpful along the way.
ANNA: And for me, that thread is really a trust in the unfolding, that I may not see it all now, but there’s a thread and it’s unfolding and I don’t want to be judging each thing as good or bad, because I feel like it derails. And I just want to trust in that unfolding.
I think it’s important to realize that when we’re judging other people or their actions, we’re missing this opportunity for deeper understanding. And what usually ends up being a pretty thinly-veiled ploy for control, often, when we’re judging. I think it’s important to look at that for a minute, because when we’re judging someone’s action, what is our goal? What do we want to happen? Do we think it will help our relationship? Do we think it’ll change what they’re doing? Maybe. But how will that feel?
And so, then to flip it around, how does it feel when someone’s judging us? Does it make us feel closer to that person? Does it make us want to change our behavior? Most likely, it makes us want to pull away or double down, even if it might not serve us. Judgment really has no place in our relationships. In its place, though, we can use inquiry. We can have this genuine openness and desire to understand, because like you said, these are our most important relationships. I want to understand them. I want to know what makes them tick. I want them to feel good about how we’re moving forward.
That keeps us connected as we learn more about each other. And it also allows a place where our concerns or ideas can be met with curiosity and not defensiveness on both sides, because that’s the environment that we’re cultivating.
PAM: Yes. Because judgment really is all about us, right?
ANNA: Oh yeah.
PAM: It is about how we’re seeing, what we want to happen. But a connected and loving relationship is about both people. I also love and often use the thought experiment of flipping things around to see how I would feel if I was on the receiving end of things, because it doesn’t feel good to be judged. And I notice that my defensiveness rises, leaving me with little space to consider changing things up and learning something new. “No, I’m going to defend this. I’m going to hold on maybe even longer than I would normally if I wasn’t feeling judged.”
I am much more apt to be open and curious when someone approaches me with information without that side dish of judgment. As you mentioned, that just feels so much less controlling. It feels like we’re on the same team. We’re going to try and figure this out. You just brought me some new information. And you gave me this space to like hear it, bring it in, and see if it makes sense to me. It’s not controlling anymore.
ANNA: Right. Exactly. Now you’re open, you’re curious, you’re learning, you’re both learning, and how different is that? You can learn from each other. I think when we’re feeling judged, it really puts up a wall to what they’re saying. What they’re saying might be helpful, but not when it’s delivered with that side dish of judgment. We’re not even going to hear it.
And so, again, these are our most important people. We want to stay connected. So, yeah, just so important to keep in mind.
Okay. So, the blame/fault matrix is another paradigm that is so common in our culture. It’s really easy and at times comforting to lay that blame on someone else. If you didn’t do this, think like that, act like this, X wouldn’t have happened. The problem is, when we focus on blame, we never look at our role and we never dig deeper into the whole situation. We’re never getting to that underlying need on either of our parts.
And blaming is just a surefire way to create a rupture in a relationship. No one wants the finger pointed at them. It makes us feel that this love that we have is conditional. If you don’t way behave the way I think is good or right, I’m going to blame you for things that have happened. I’m going to withdraw my love potentially. And again, it’s just that judgment and blame. It just creates craters in relationships. I believe ruptures can be healed and that a repair is super important, but we don’t need to just keep creating them. Let’s just try not to keep creating them!
PAM: Absolutely. That is an important part of a relationship, the repair, because things aren’t always going to go smoothly, but we don’t need to keep setting ourselves up for these challenges. It’s just so fascinating to think about how urgently people look around to find someone to blame when something goes awry.
We all want to. “It’s not my fault. It’s not my fault. No, no, no.” And how often once we find someone to blame, that’s the end of it. We want to move on. It’s not really surprising then when it keeps happening over and over, because we’re not really learning anything that we can bring forward with us for the next time.
Instead, when we approach the situation with the energy that we’re all on the same team, we can empathize with our partner or our child or friend about the upset. Because chances are, they aren’t particularly happy about it either. We can listen to them, support them as they process things, and brainstorm with them about different things they might try next time. So, just think about how you’d like others to help and support you when something you do goes sideways. And just try that. How would it feel for me if someone did this? Well, let me try doing that for someone else when things go sideways with something they’ve done or said.
ANNA: Oh my gosh. We all just want to be held in those times when things go sideways. We just want to be understood at least, or have somebody not pointing the finger at us, because we know what we’ve done half the time. You know what I mean? We don’t need that outside judgment. We really just need somebody that’s like, “Hey, where do you want to go from here? What can we do next? How can we fix this? What can we do?”
And so, it’s just such a different energy to bring and I think especially because we’re talking about our most important relationships, it’s just worth that work to find that kindness and compassion. So, yeah, so important.
So, for me, all the things that we’ve talked about today and lots more out there, fall into the idea of black and white thinking and life and for sure relationships are lived in the gray and I really feel like so much suffering and so many relationship issues boil down to this black and white, right and wrong thinking. There’s not one right way to do or be. There just isn’t.
We make the choices we make in each moment based upon all kinds of factors, including very changeable things like how much sleep have I had, or food. Understanding the context of the moments, the needs of the individuals involved, and cultivating that open and curious mindset allows us to learn and to grow. We can develop deeper relationships, because they’re based on the understanding that we’re doing the best we can in each moment, and that our behaviors are trying to meet a need.
So, when judgment is set aside, we can look at all the factors that make up the context and keep connection at the forefront. We can talk about our needs and the impact something is having on us with an eye to understanding one another and to work together to find solutions that feel good to us both. So, I decided to look up antonyms of “polarizing” when we were naming this episode and their unification, connection, and attachment. And I thought, oh yeah, that really sums it up, why I choose to let go of paradigms that don’t serve me in my relationships, why I choose to remain open and curious. Because being connected in meaningful ways to the important people in my life is my highest priority.
PAM: Yes. I think when we see polarizing ideas, things that divide people into two opposing groups, like right and wrong or good and bad, that is a great clue to dig deeper. Things are rarely that simple, especially when it comes to relationships with the people we love. As you said, Anna, life is lived between those two poles, in the gray. And while sometimes that can definitely feel more nebulous, it is also, as we’ve mentioned, so much richer and it’s more connected with the real human beings that we’re choosing to be in relationship with. Celebrate the gray.
ANNA: Absolutely. Okay, so let’s talk about a few questions for pondering this week.
So, how does it feel when someone puts their ideas of right or wrong on you? I think it’s just always good to flip this around. So, just how does it feel? Because we’ve all had it happen. So, how does that feel?
Do you notice an area where polarizing paradigms are impacting an important relationship? How would it feel to let it go and lean in to understand? And I think there’s lots of times now where we have these polarizing beliefs that happen. What would it feel like to let go of the rightness of your position and just lean in to try to understand where that person’s coming from?
PAM: I want to bring back, how you mentioned open and curious, and I love how that helps us here. Letting go of feeling right isn’t about replacing it with, “I’m wrong.”
ANNA: Right. Or changing your mind at all.
PAM: Exactly. It’s more expansive. It’s bigger. It’s about being open and curious to see how else other people are seeing things or feeling about things.
ANNA: We just learn more. Again, it may not change our opinion, but maybe it gives us more information about the situation. Or maybe it’s the “through their eyes” that we’ve talked about, too. We see why they got there, because their life is different than ours. Their experiences are different.
So, letting go of that strong-held “right” just opens up. Again, it doesn’t mean it’s going to change your opinion necessarily, but I think it will give you a lot more information about the people around you. So, number three. How do you feel when someone blames you for something and you don’t see it the same way. So, that can just give you some good clues about how blaming at any time never feels good, no matter what. If the person thinks that they’re very right, that blaming just doesn’t feel good.
And number four, have you seen judgment impact a relationship with someone you love? And so, I think that’s really good to dig in. And I would say if you have children, really look at that, too, because I think we do tend to lean into judging children about how they’re spending their time or what they’re doing and how that is impacting the relationship. But you’ll also see it with your partners and friends and extended family. So, where’s judgment coming into play? See where it’s coming at you, see where you’re putting it out there, and think about what it would feel like if you could let that go.
PAM: I think that will be a huge one, too. Because even if we’re not sharing our judgements. Maybe we take that first step, okay. I didn’t say it. At that point, we could start to notice that we may still have an energy about it. We may still be bringing that piece. And most people can sense that, children can sense that.
ANNA: For sure.
PAM: People can sense when we are bringing a judging energy. And our questions, they feel less open and curious and more pointed when we’re asking questions.
ANNA: Right. And we’re less willing to even talk about it. I think we’re less willing to even share our perspectives with people when we feel that judgment coming at us. So, think about that in reverse with people. Why are they telling me this? Because, well, if they’re sensing judgment, that may be stopping that conversation right there.
PAM: Because you don’t want to be giving them evidence is what it feels like.
ANNA: Exactly. Right. Because you know they’re sitting there waiting for like, what can I judge you about the situation? So, yeah, that’s not the energy we want with these people that we love. That’s not at all. And it’s absolutely something we can change, even if it’s something we’ve done historically, we can absolutely change it.
And part of it would be this. So, number five, how would it feel to let go of black and white thinking and really dig into the gray with the people in your life, to trust that they’re doing things for reasons that make sense to them and learning more about them, letting go of these really strong polarizing paradigms?
So, I think it will be interesting to steep in that for a little bit and see where it’s impacting your relationships and how that could possibly be different.
PAM: I think that can be just such a fundamental mindset shift and it’s internal. It’s something that we can completely just play with ourselves for the first while.
ANNA: We don’t have to make any declarations. We could just play around with it. How does it feel and, “Okay, yeah. I do like the way it feels to just be more open and to not be judging everyone around me.” And I remember someone in my life before telling me that she found her judgements of everyone else was because she was so harshly judging herself. And so, once she could get to that place of not harshly judging herself, she had no need or desire to judge the people around her. And so, that’s another piece to kind of turn around and look at as well.
So, we hope that everyone is enjoying their holiday season and hopefully some of the ideas we’ve been discussing will even make those big family gatherings a bit more enjoyable. Thank you so much for listening, and we will be back in two weeks. Take care. Bye!
PAM: Bye!
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On this episode of Exploring Unschooling, Pam, Anna, and Erika talk about the immense value of celebrating interests. As humans, what we are interested in really makes us who we are as individuals. When we celebrate and show interest in the things that our children and partners love, our relationships deepen. Our loved ones feel seen and understood when we take the time to learn more about their interests and share in their joys. We hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey and in your relationships!
Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube.
THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODESpinning a Web episode 323 – Pam’s talk about how learning can look in unschooling
We invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network, a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents. It’s a non-judgmental space where you can steep in these unconventional ideas around parenting, relationships, and learning, and explore what they might look like day-to-day in your uniquely wonderful family. We offer a free month trial so you can see if it’s a good fit for you. Click here to join us.
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EPISODE TRANSCRIPTPAM: Hello everyone, I am Pam Laricchia from Living Joyfully and today I’m joined by my co-hosts Anna Brown and Erika Ellis. Hello to you both!
So, in this episode, we are going to be talking about the value of intentionally celebrating our child’s interests, because there can definitely be more to that than meets the eye. But before we dive in, I would like to take a moment to invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network.
There is just so much value in walking alongside others on our journey, particularly on more unconventional journeys like unschooling, because we don’t see a lot of it happening in our everyday life. Because while everyone’s journey is unique, many of us face similar obstacles and challenges and that is where the power of community shines in feeling seen and heard. In the network you will learn from the experiences of other parents who are on similar journeys.
You can draw inspiration from their a-ha moments. You can gain insight from the unique and creative ways that they navigate both their own and their family’s needs every day. It’s just so fun. I know my kids are all adults. I still love going in there and seeing what people are doing because it’s the energy, it’s the creativity, it just opens things up for me every time I visit. So, to learn more and join us just follow the link in the show notes. We look forward to welcoming you. And Anna, would you like to get us started on celebrating interests?
ANNA: I would, thank you so much. I love thinking about the ways to celebrate the people in our lives, especially our children. I have a favorite quote from our friend Anne Ohman. Years ago, we made it into a bumper sticker. And so, I’m going to read that to you.
“Today I will connect with my children, bring joy into their lives, nurture and encourage what they love to do, and celebrate them for being exactly who they are.”
And celebrating our kids and what they’re interested in is such a great place to start because we really can feel misunderstood and even judged if someone makes light of or disregards something that we love and we can feel so seen and supported when they show interest in it and in us.
Because a big part of who we are is made up of the things that we love and the things that we do. When someone criticizes something we love, it feels like they’re criticizing us. The thought process is kind of, I love this thing, they’re saying I shouldn’t or I shouldn’t be doing it, is there something wrong with me? And it starts to sow that seed of doubt and it disconnects us from our inner voice.
When the people in our lives celebrate our interests, it makes a difference in cultivating our inner voice and learning to trust ourselves. It’s also just a great way to learn about our kids or our partners. As we lean into learning more about their interests, we see what draws them into it. So instead of thinking well they just love video games, what kind of games? What is it about the games? Is it the art, the music, the story, the action, the excitement of it? Learning the lingo and what’s going on helps us celebrate and have that deeper conversation with them. And really that goes for all kinds of interests.
I have this young friend who’s into hobby horses. So yes, this is an actual thing. There is a World Hobby Horsing Championship. It’s in Europe. The hobby horses are these elaborate handmade, that in itself is art, beautiful kind of horse heads on a stick. The events involve people riding these hobby horses over jumps and obstacles. It gets so athletic. It’s like, who knew this? I did not.
But I love learning about it and seeing the joy that it brings to her and really this whole community of people across the world that are into this thing that I didn’t even know existed. It’s fun, right? The art of it’s beautiful. The athleticism is beautiful. The joy from the kids is beautiful.
But sometimes if someone has an interest that maybe is a little bit harder for me to understand, I look at them. Because they’re important to me, right? This is a person that I care about. And so I get excited about their excitement. I can join that fun energy of someone doing something that they love. That excitement is contagious if we just open ourselves to it, even just a tiny bit.
Because I truly want people in my life to feel loved and celebrated. And it’s such an easy gift to give. And I have just found it deepens those connections in such a beautiful, beautiful way.
ERIKA: Oh, I love that so much. I feel like people’s interests are so important. It’s so core to who they are as people. And so, if we can see that and say, I see what you love and I appreciate that you love it. It feels so good. It feels like being seen. It feels like being understood. And I love that part that you talked about with the lingo.
Because that has been so huge for my relationships with my kids to be able to speak the same language that they speak about the things that they love. So, it’s things like learning about the characters, learning about the stories, being interested when they’re sharing about the things that they love so much. And I see that when I am able to remember the little details about the things that they’ve told me in the past, how much that helps them feel connected to me and like I’m with them, that I support them. And so, I just really do put a huge value in learning about their interests and celebrating their interests.
And I remember, I think it was a recent network call that we had where one parent shared that they had played Minecraft along with their kids, which was kind of challenging because it’s hard to dive into Minecraft as a new Minecraft player. And especially if your kids are quite advanced and you’re just kind of trying to figure it out.
A lot of these interests might not make a lot of sense to our brains. Maybe they’re things that I would never choose to spend time on if it were up to me. But what it showed was that taking that little bit of time to be like, okay, I’m in here, show me what to do.
You know, really giving it a try was just such a connecting moment for them. And so I just love that. Even if it feels a little bit out of our comfort zones, even if we don’t quite understand it, I think there’s just so much value in making that time to try to learn that little bit more and show interest.
PAM: Yeah. And I think for me, when I think back to when the kids first came home from school, I had that mindset of not so much judging the interests, but varying the value that I placed on them, right? Video games were at the lower end of something that yeah, you like that thing. That’s great. You enjoy it. But, I couldn’t lean into celebrating it as much as something that looked more, whatever, you know, I can’t even come up with a word for now, like it was more culturally valued.
So because, we’ve talked about before, the values and the things that were the way we are placing things in our life, in our context, are those from outer voices or from inner voices? So that was a really helpful step, just taking the time to recognize where I might be judging things. And when I first came home, I was still looking through the lens of subjects, like is Minecraft math?
Then I can tick off the math box when they’re playing Minecraft or, you know, that kind of stuff. So it was really beautiful to be encouraged, not only to celebrate their interests, but as you were saying, not judging them at all, like this is something interesting to you. Therefore it’s interesting, just full stop there.
I don’t need to justify it before I can celebrate it. I can just go right to celebrating it, right? And absolutely you just learned so much about who they are as a person, what they’re loving, what they’re loving about it.
Because in so many things, there are different aspects of it. And maybe one side’s challenging, maybe one side’s not so fun, but the stuff that they are getting out of it makes it worth coming back to it again and again. So it’s just so interesting and so fun after a few months, a few years to look back and see how their interests have kind of morphed and changed.
And you can start to see the thread that kind of goes foundationally. Oh, there’s also that aspect that shows up in this interest that just may seem totally random looking back if we’re just looking at what the literal interest is. But when we have those conversations, we learn that language, we know the bits and pieces that are exciting them.
We can really see what is foundationally them, because we can see that bit attracting them to all sorts of different interests.
ANNA: Yes, it’s so fun. And I think that’s a really good point. Because if we’re just looking at the interest kind of at surface value, we are missing that it’s building blocks to other things, right?
And so, again, it may be that the art or the music that’s attracting them to this particular video game, and maybe that morphs into actually doing some physical art or some digital art or into making music or to understanding different things about it. But we can really stuff that down if we’re judging it, if it’s coming with this judgmental lens, because the judgment’s so surface level, right? It’s really up here.
It’s not getting excited and understanding what’s lighting them up about it. We really only see those things in looking back a very long time, really. So there’s a trust piece, which I get can be hard because, well, it’s a trust piece.
But I just think about how many adults I work with, adults I know in my family, I’m thinking of my brother and in more extended family that really had these strong, passionate interests that didn’t fit the mold of what people thought they should do. And so they pivoted from that and did the more conventional thing that they were supposed to do. And it’s decades later, where they’re thinking, I hate this.
Why am I doing this? Why do I have this job? And it seems dramatic that it’s coming from this, but it is, had someone seen them and seen how art was such an important part of their life, and had really gotten excited and maybe brought more of that in, what a different path that would have looked like.
So I do feel like if we can shut off that part of our brain that’s judging or thinking, how does it look to the outside and just get curious. I mean, here we go again. I feel like we always talk about the same thing, but just create space, just get curious.
I think you’ll see all these interests, how they weave together and how it’s all a part of growth. And my friend Pat always says, you can take any interest and really see the whole world from it. I think you even have an article, don’t you, Pam?
Everything can come from one thing. And that really opens us up, I think, as parents to recognize it. So we’ll link that too in the show notes, because I think it’s a really valuable paradigm shift. It can be this really specific interest of hobby horsing that leads to, geography and horses and sewing and this and that and art and all the things from this one, what would seem a very niche interest.
ERIKA: Yeah, I love that. Once you have that belief of, okay, we can learn anything through any interest that they have, then it makes it so that everything’s valid. And I’m not going to be afraid to support any interest.
And so I’m just imagining how cool would it be if all parents could just be encouraging their kids in the thing that right now the kid is the most interested in? How powerful that could be? Because there’s a reason why that particular interest is speaking to them so strongly right now.
There’s a reason why they keep bringing it up and keep wanting to do it. It’s doing something for them. It’s working with their brains and their personalities.
And it’s kind of reminding me of when we talk about being true to ourselves. And so if you get that chance to really listen to what you are interested in as a person, individual, unique person with your personality, you learn so much more about yourself. And then everything that happens from that point is more aligned with who you are.
And so if we give our children that chance, they can really dive deep into this thing that they love the most. Okay, now they’re meeting other people who are interested in the thing they love the most. They’re making connections that work better for them.
They’re able to learn better because when you’re learning something you love. Learning happens more easily and naturally than if we’re trying to pull ourselves away to something that people think we should be doing. And so I think if we can really just sink into all interests lead down a path that can be valuable for that individual person, then we can stop judging our kids and just lean into supporting them to go down that path.
PAM: Yeah, I love that so much. It’s beautiful. And I think that’s the next step that I want to make sure to repeat, that you both talked about it.
But just to be really intentional that celebrating interest isn’t just about going okay, I’m so glad. It can be so much more. It can be in the conversations, or if they’re not much of a chatter. It’s in just observing when they’re watching that favorite show doing that favorite activity, which parts of it, light them up more like when you really see them light up what’s going on in that moment? They’re still communicating to you, even if they can’t sit down and nail off for you that this is my favorite part. Maybe you have those conversations, but it’s okay if you don’t.
But finding those pieces that light them up and then getting creative, where might that also exist in other places? Maybe it’s really close. Maybe it’s something that might be quite different from that, but might give that same sense of that same energy, or that same piece.
And it can just be so fascinating if we share that without expectation or judgment, to see if that connects, do they even want to try it? How does that unfold? If they don’t like it, yes, or no, or maybe, we’re learning every moment, right?
And they are learning too, because they’re like, Oh, do I? No, I don’t want to do that. They took a moment to consider that.
So helping them explore their interest in interesting ways can be so helpful. That is the learning that is so fun to just see in action. Because yes, even when they’re super frustrated, they will come back to it if it’s meaningful, right?
If it’s something that’s really speaking to them. And just to see them putting those pieces together and they’re exploring the window. Yes, passions are a window to the world, and that is how they’re putting together their web of learning, the context around this thing that is really interesting to them, right? So like, if it’s a particular game, you can get more of exactly the same kind of game, but you can also get a game that also has this aspect of it and try that out.
And being there with them and just like, It’s so fun!
ANNA: It’s just so much fun. It is and I love that piece of, are there ways we can find that bring this interest in? I mean, from little things like finding a plushie of a game that maybe is not easy to find and we have to figure out how to ship from Japan, a plushie from a game that they love. Or, oh, it’s this aspect that they really enjoy, the video game symphony stuff, that was really fun, because it’s something that they enjoyed, this music piece, and it was music they knew and that they had enjoyed. So, those are things that they may not know exist in those moments.
And again, having no attachment to it, but just saying, “Hey, I saw this, and it kind of reminded me of this thing you love.” And they may say yes or no, we don’t have to have attachment to that. But it’s fun to just think of, how can we boost somebody up along their journey? How can we add things to it that make it fun?
And something you said, Erika, that I wanted to pull out to is, that piece of when we’re doing something that we’re really interested in, that’s really important to us, we will actually push harder to learn something that’s maybe trickier, or that we’re struggling with a little bit more, but it’ll have a very different flavor than if somebody is forcing us to do something that isn’t clicking with us, right? Because then it just feels arbitrary. “Why am I having to do this? It makes no sense.”
But if it’s like, Oh, I really want to understand how to put these pieces together to make this thing that’s so important to me that I want to take to this comic con or this place or this thing, so different.
And so I think watch for that, because sometimes we’ll hear feedback from parents, but they get so frustrated. And I’m like, right, they’re working through those pieces. How cool is it for them to figure out how to handle the frustration of that and practice that and try to move through it and see all those opportunities. We always want the kids to stick with things, but we don’t want them to stick with it if it’s something we’re not judging as okay to stick with. And so, letting go of all that and just celebrating and looking at your child or partner, anybody in front of you.
Everybody really feels great when they’re seen and heard around these things that they love. So yeah, I hope people can feel the energy of it because I think it just really, it’s fun.
ERIKA: It’s so fun. And okay, so this part is less fun, but it came to mind, which is let’s not take over their interests. Because that can happen, especially if we get very excited about celebrating their interests. We may think we know the part that they like the best, and we get really excited to push them down that path, because it’s so great and fun.
But then maybe that’s not what they actually want to do. Or maybe we’re pushing them faster than they would have gone on their own. And so, I think there’s nuance to this, supporting their interests. And I have definitely swung too far to that side sometimes with my excitement. And so like, it’s all about being attuned to what they’re showing us. And so, I want to meet their energy. I don’t want to drive them forward with what I think about their interests.
And then I was also thinking about, you know, just financially supporting their interests. Sometimes that could come up as a bit of a rub, if it’s something that we’re not seeing as valuable. And so, again, I think it would just be about realizing there’s value in this for them, and making the decision to support an interest, even if it doesn’t quite make sense to us, can really pay off in the long run. And so, seeing it more as like investing in them and their own development along their path, rather than, oh, I’m just, you know, such a fan of whatever horror video games and so I really want to buy all of them, which I don’t really want to. But separating my own taste and my own opinions about things from the things that they’re really loving.
PAM: Yeah, that is a big part of it. And I find that when we are diving into that, that’s such an important piece to separate out, our feelings from it, and not jumping ahead, so when we’re really excited about it, and we jump in and energetically take over, because we’re excited. Not only are we happy that they’re interested in something, we literally share this interest, and this was our path, and we want to help them go through that. But that’s what I love about the metaphor of the web of learning. We’re trying to get them to jump. We’re trying to put our web on top of their web, or life, a better word.
And so, on their journey, that might be four or five points out, where for us, that maybe was just one or two, or in our excitement, maybe three, because we just want them to know where we’re going. “Isn’t that awesome?” And yeah, that we can often stifle the interest, because we’re not letting them make their connections the way it makes the most sense to them.
So, we can be stepping on their learning. And maybe that can be a lens at first that helps most to bring your energy to it, because in celebrating their interest, you’re celebrating their learning. And so, then, yes, on the opposite side, knowing that we can also stop their learning, when we start putting it through a filter of what we kind of agree with, don’t agree with, or like, oh, this is gonna cost a little bit, or will take up more time, which I don’t feel comfortable with.
And then I’ll just rationalize it or justify it rather than leaning in getting open and curious, bringing my context piece, maybe I don’t have a lot of time right now, or money, or whatever it is. But instead of putting the kibosh on it, or saying not right now, we can lean in, because maybe even just talking about it, and celebrating the idea of it can help keep the energy moving forward on it and they’ll also be picking up the context of everything. It’s a window to the world, just navigating through something that we want to do. We learn so much doing that as well, don’t we?
ANNA: Yeah, oh my goodness. But yeah, making it about us, that’s a really important one, because I get excited. But it doesn’t need to be about me. If I want to pursue it, I can do that separately. It really is, like you said, kind of matching their energy, really letting them take the lead. Because like you said, Pam, they’re putting pieces together in a way that makes sense for their brain, not necessarily a way that makes sense for my brain.
And so, I can be excited about watching that process. That’s how I could tone that down a little bit. It’s like, oh, I’m curious to see where they’ll go with this, or what that will be. And that would allow me to have my excitement, but not start lawnmowing their way through so that they’re like, wait a minute, what’s happening here?
And oh gosh, there was one other thought that you were saying. So, this is a little bit on the darker side too, but watching for maybe we’re not criticizing an interest, but are we celebrating in line with what we want them to do, right? And so, just watching for that. I think that is important because, oh, this interest, this we could get behind because everybody’s going to love the pictures from this or the idea of what this is. This is conventional or accepted.
Watching for, are we really celebrating all those moments? Are we looking to them and what is actually bubbling up for them and being excited, whether it looks like a photo op or not? And I think that can just be an important thing to kind of check in ourselves because it’s nice when they have a hobby that then the grandparents will like. And I want to make sure they’re feeling seen about all the pieces that are interesting them.
PAM: Well, thank you so much to everyone for joining us. We hope you enjoyed our conversation about celebrating interests. And maybe you have some ideas, a little spark of getting a little curious about what your kids are into and just the fun of just creatively trying to come up with what else might be interesting for them.
And we also hope you consider joining us in the Living Joyfully Network to dive into these kinds of ideas and conversations with other kind and thoughtful unschooling parents. It will add a depth and richness to your journey that I really do feel you’ll deeply appreciate. And we are excited to welcome you to learn more and join us. Just follow the link in the show notes. We also invite you to check out our Substack When School Isn’t Working. It’s also a great resource to share with friends who are feeling stuck and might just be open to considering these ideas. We wish everyone a lovely day. Thanks so much, you guys!
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In this episode, we’re sharing a conversation that Pam had with Lucy AitkenRead in 2017. At the time, Lucy unschools her two children and blogs at Lulastic and the Hippyshake. Pam and Lucy talked about her family’s move to unschooling, the hardest parts of her journey, the most surprising bits, as well her husband’s journey to unschooling.
We hope you enjoy the conversation!
QUESTIONS FOR LUCYCan you share with us a bit about you and your family?
How did you discover unschooling?
What has your family’s move to unschooling looked like?
Can you share a bit about your husband’s journey? Was unschooling new to him? If so, how did you help him learn more about it?
What’s been the hardest part of your unschooling journey so far?
What has surprised you most about your journey so far?
You recently started a group and website called Parent Allies. I’d love to know the inspiration behind it and a bit about your plans!
Listen to our conversation on YouTube.
THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODEWe invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network, a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents. It’s a non-judgmental space where you can steep in these unconventional ideas around parenting, relationships, and learning, and explore what they might look like day-to-day in your uniquely wonderful family. We offer a free month trial so you can see if it’s a good fit for you. Click here to join us.
Sign up to our mailing list on Substack to receive our email newsletters as well as new articles about learning, parenting, and so much more!
Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about exploring unschooling and navigating relationships.
TRANSCRIPTPAM: Hi everyone, I’m Pam Laricchia from livingjoyfully.ca, and today I’m here with Lucy AitkenRead. Hi Lucy!
LUCY: Hi Pam! How you going?
PAM: I’m going very well. Just to let everyone know, Lucy is an unschooling mom of two kids, and I have been following her adventures online for quite a while now, including her family’s experiences living in a yurt in New Zealand, and now their travels back to the UK. So, I’m really looking forward to diving into her unschooling and deschooling experiences at this point on her journey.
To get us started Lucy, can you share with us a bit about you and your family?LUCY: Yes, of course. So, I’m Lucy and I’m married to Tim. And he is a Kiwi, but we spent most of our early marriage in London, where I’m from. And that’s where we had both of our daughters: Ramona who is now six, and Juno who is four. We lived really happily, living quite a normal life I suppose, in London, until a couple years ago when we decided to sort of up sticks and move to a forest in New Zealand, where we now live in a yurt.
PAM: That is so awesome Lucy. And I’m sure you’re going to share some amusing stories from that time as we go through this.
Can share with us how you actually discovered unschooling? How’d you come across it?LUCY: Well yeah, it’s quite interesting for me, because I guess, deep in my heart, I’m a bit of a socialist, and I always really held onto the idea of school as being a really important common good, and that my children would definitely go to school. We would support that school. Because education is something that every child deserves, and people who are able to input into their local schools, it’s a really great thing that we should support. Basically, I had a really strong belief around that.
And then I had my children, and my first child Ramona really took me on a huge learning curve, I guess. She’s a child who is just incredibly spirited, and I believe that her spirited nature caused me to ask a lot of questions about how I wanted to raise my children.
When our second child Juno was born, we sold everything in our London home and we sold our London home, and we packed our bags into a VW camper van and we went traveling around Europe. And someone had given me John Holt’s How Children Learn, you know, which is always a slippery slope when you pick up a John Holt book, I think.
So, I was kind of reading this probably a little skeptically, but also knowing that I was already raising Ramona in quite a radically different way to how I thought I would. I guess my mind was already beginning to open about some of these ideas about raising children respectfully, for sure.
But then we went to a forest kindergarten in the Black Forest, in Germany, as part of our big trip around Europe, which we were doing. We’d set aside six months to do that. And then we got to this forest kindergarten, and I was reading How Children Learn, and I think it just was like a potent combination for my mind.
I was reading John Holt, and seeing all of these children around me, basically just unschooling in the great outdoors. There are teachers there, and they’re well trained teachers, but they see themselves much more as facilitators for a child’s own learning. And yeah, it was just so incredible to see it in real life in action, exactly what John Holt is talking about. I guess that was the moment when I knew that we would be unschoolers, and that all these ideas I held about school weren’t actually necessarily going to be the reality for my family.
And so, then we ended up back in New Zealand with our kids, and even though Ramona was only three at that stage, and Juno was a tiny baby, we rocked up in New Zealand and immediately attended an unschooling camp. And there were 150 people there, and we just kind of arrived and we felt like we’d found our people. This is a community that we wanted to stay within and raise our children within. So, I guess that’s the story.
PAM: How did you hear about the camp? Was it just random?
LUCY: I googled it, yeah. I actually googled “unschooling NZ,” and instead of any websites coming up or any groups or resources, there was just an event detailing where to turn up and how much to pay. And we were like, “Okay, let’s do it.” Google had spoken. (laughter)
PAM: And that is such a nice introduction—actually in person. I know when I first came across unschooling, it was all online. There wasn’t like local gatherings that I knew of. All those connections came so fast and made so much sense, at the point that I was there. But definitely seeing it in action would be a nice introduction, right?
LUCY: Yeah, it was really, really cool. And there were definitely a few moments where we were like, “Oh! That’s interesting!” It wasn’t at all like, “Oh we do everything exactly this way.” It wasn’t at all like that.
But it was the community that really inspired us, I guess. We really just felt at home within the way that adults were interacting with the children, because that was something we really felt certain about at that stage. We really knew that we wanted to be parents that interacted with our children in a really respectful kind of democratic way, I suppose. And that is what we saw there.
And that was probably the magic for us, that made us go, “Ah! Yeah, this is something we’re going to really dive into.” And now we actually go to between four and five unschooling camps a year. They’re a really important part of our family’s unschooling framework, I guess. And all of that. Just a whole massive group of people just being in their element for a few days and every season. We make it happen come hell or high water.
PAM: That’s awesome. And you mentioned there too that already before you even came across John Holt etc., that your parenting was less mainstream, right? So, you were kind of already primed for that. You noticed the difference in the relationships even just at camp, even if some of the details still weren’t … ready for you.
Because it really is a journey, isn’t it? I remember at first I would read about unschooling and I’d think, “Well, you know, it’s super cool. So much of it makes sense. You know, this little bit … I don’t think we’ll do that. I don’t think we’ll be doing that.” But as the months went by and I learned more and more and I understood why they were doing that, it really was a journey. Because it’s like, “Oh, of course I’m going to do that!” Right? (laughs)
LUCY: Yeah, that’s exactly right. And I see it a lot. Like with my writing, I’ll be writing about some sort of specific and then people will really kind of grab hold of that specific and be like, “I can’t see how that can possibly work, da da da da da.” And it’s like, well I guess it really does only work when you look at the whole picture. It’s sort of like people really want the detail, but, I mean, the devil is in it. The devil in the detail.
It’s not really so much about the very specific practical details as much as the big picture of the life you’re trying to lead, which is one where you’re not making decisions based on fear, but you’re making decisions based on connection. And having that overall philosophy is what makes then the details make sense.
PAM: So true.
LUCY: I don’t know if I made sense. (laughs)
PAM: It did! Absolutely. Because, if you look for the details too quickly, I think there’s a tendency to kind of interpret them like the rules of unschooling, right?
LUCY: Yeah.
PAM: “Tell me exactly what you do each day and I will do that.” But it might not work in your family. Because it’s all about how the individuals relate to each other, and how the individuals like to pursue their interests and everything. So, what my day looks like isn’t going to look like anyone else’s, right?
LUCY: Yeah, that’s exactly right.
So, let’s talk a little more about your family’s move to unschooling. You went to the camp, and it made sense, it connected, you guys loved that. Did your days just kind of keep on going, or how did that work?LUCY: Yeah, yes, basically nothing changed, I guess. We just kept on just living our life. And that’s the thing that, you know, because we’ve never been to school, we just keep living our life, and nothing has really changed much at all. So, the life that we were living with our children age one and three is now pretty similar to age six and four, really.
I guess they’re way more vocal in what they want to do. But we still just go about living our lives, all of us ticking away, following our little hopes and dreams each day. Yeah, there’s not been any momentous shift I don’t think, since that camp. It’s just been living each day as it comes to us.
PAM: So you just kind of kept on keeping on. That’s awesome.
LUCY: Kept on keeping on. Yeah.
PAM: Yeah. Have your kids mentioned school at all?
LUCY: Ramona does sort of every now and then mention school. And it’s nearly always when there’s been a bit of time in our life where we’ve been quite farm-bound, for whatever reason. She’s an incredibly social kid, and I think sometimes when we drive past a playground she’ll see the hundreds of kids kind of just running around there, and she’ll think, “Oh, I’d do really well in that situation.”
So, we tend to work really hard at getting her enough of that social interaction. And when that’s going really well, she doesn’t mention school, or she knows that she’s getting all her social needs met. And every now and then when she does pop out with this sort of question about school, I can almost always look around us and see that we maybe dropped going to something, or we’ve been a little bit caught up with all our farm chores and haven’t quite managed to meet up with as many people as we usually do, or that sort of thing.
And one of her best friends started going to school for a couple of weeks, and she was quite intrigued by school at that point, which was really interesting for us. It was somebody that we live on the farm with, and they’re an unschooling family, but their boy wanted to give it a go. And so, they did, and that was really interesting, because I guess we had to ask ourselves the question, would Ramona go to school if she wanted it?
And we sort of did a bit of soul searching about that, around that time. And then he decided it wasn’t actually all that. You know, he liked having a lunch box and he liked having play dates after school, and his mum realized that both of those things could be done outside of a school context. And he didn’t like being told what to do, when, and where. And he really quickly just went back to being at home on the farm. And then that moment just kind of disappeared. But it still was an interesting one, to figure out whether, in your unschooling family, you would be willing to support a child going to school.
PAM: Yeah, when it first gets mentioned, it can knock you off a bit, just because you feel like, “Well, what am I not doing? What’s wrong? Am I failing? Am I not doing it right?” So, it takes that soul searching—that work to get past that reaction—and realize, this isn’t personal.
But, like you said, it’s a great clue to start looking around, you know, and you see that that question—it might be just the solution that they see to a need that’s missing. Right? Like you said. Maybe it’s a need for some more social interaction, and they’re not going to come to you: “Mom, I need more social interaction.” But she may see in her mind that playground full of kids at school and think, “School is a good solution.” And then come at it that way.
So, I think the first thing is to look around, like you do, and see if there’s any clues to what need they’re trying to fill with that. Because then from there, you can say, “Well maybe the need is, literally, to check out school.” Maybe. But it might not be. There might be a million other ways to meet whatever it is that they want. It’s a hard time, but it’s so interesting, and when you can get past that initial fear, it’s a big release to do that soul-searching, figure that out, because you’re in a stronger place, aren’t you?
LUCY: Yeah, definitely. And I think it might—who is it—it might be Peter Gray. Let me have a little bit of a think about that. But someone speaks about this idea that if a child really wants to go to school and they don’t get to go to school, they might forever feel like school was a club that they weren’t allowed in. And that is probably something to worry about more than your child actually going to school and you being merely kind of phlegmatic about it.
I kind of came to two conclusions, I suppose, with this whole soul-searching period. And that was: I really felt like six is too young to make a decision to put yourself into a situation that so drastically impacts your family’s circumstances, and your own well-being. And I do think that school really does impact a child’s well-being. And I guess I decided that I wanted to try and protect Ramona from that, for as long as I could, until she made it really clear that it is school that she’s after. I would try to meet her needs as much as I could, and then, if it still is school, I would support her to do that, but I would do it in a way that supported her as a person, without making all of the school’s toxicness something that impacts her. So, I’d be very nonchalant, shall we say, about testing and exams and homework. You know, all of that stuff I’d just hold really lightly, but support her in going to school, if it really was the need that she had to do that.
PAM: Yeah, and I think that’s such an important point, because you’re so right about the atmosphere, the environment, and the effect that it can have on a child. And to realize that it can be such a different experience for a child if we choose not to bring all that home, right? If we don’t buy into, “I need to be on top of them at home to study,” and to use the grades as a judgement of them, and everything. Rather than, just, it’s a place they go for a few hours, and did they have fun? And supporting them if they’re like, “Mom, I have a test this week. I’d like to study. Can you help me study?” or something. Of course, you’re going to help them—
LUCY: Totally.
PAM: Yeah! Because I can see, if we’re still feeling resentful about their choice—like it was a choice against us—how we could so easily, “Well, you chose school, you have to finish your homework.” You know, to make it as bad as it can be, in hopes that they’ll leave. But that’s just going to hurt!
LUCY: Yeah, and I guess that’s why I really like to take the school out of unschooling, you know. And I suppose it’s why I talk more about this other concept, which we might address later on—because for me, it’s not about education or even learning actually, but it’s more about the relationship that you have with your child. So, if there’s any one thing that you’re totally hung up on, it’s a good sign that it’s moved away from being about the important partnership you have with your child and it’s become an unhealthy fixation or something, do you know what I mean?
PAM: Yeah, yeah. We talk on our Q&A episodes so much about whenever there’s an issue, go back to the relationship. Does this feel connecting, or disconnecting? And choose the actions that feel connecting. Because no matter the environment, you’re right, it really does all boil down to relationships. And you know what, during my deschooling—though that keeps going—but that realization.
Because, at first, my kids left school, and it’s like, “Okay, so I’m replacing the learning that they’re not getting at school.” But, the realization after a few months that it’s not really about the learning. Because the learning’s going to naturally happen if I keep the relationships strong and connected; everything’s going to flow from there. So, I love that point.
I was wondering if you might share a little bit about your husband’s journey. Was unschooling a new kind of idea for him, and how did you guys work together along the way?LUCY: Okay so, unsurprisingly my husband is a teacher by trade, and I say unsurprisingly because I know a huge number of teachers in the unschooling world.
PAM: So many. (laughs)
LUCY: Yeah, it’s like as if their experience in the classroom, you know, actually is the thing that opens their eyes and says there has to be a better way to treat our children and for our children to learn in a really joyful way.
So, Tim is a teacher by trade, and he did that for quite a few years, but these days he focuses more on a bit of youth work. Which, for him, is what it was all about. It was being able to help young people find their way in the world by having really healthy connections and relationships with them.
So, yeah, teacher by trade, and he really gets the learning stuff, for sure. Like we check in, not formally, but just by nature of the whole thing, once or twice a month about little interesting learning points that have happened with Ramona and Juno. And I guess that his teacher training makes him do that perhaps more than me. So, he’ll point out something that Ramona’s done, which is such a classic learning point, but that she’s come to it completely by herself using an everyday situation. Yeah, so he’s completely on board with the learning side of it, and I guess both of us are still on this learning journey about living democratically and consensually with our children.
We’re both trying really hard to read as much as we can and talk together as much as we can. And I guess the challenge is constantly how in a family of four you can all feel as though your needs can be met, and that it can be win-win for everyone.
PAM: Yeah, I think the parenting side of the journey, that we’re always learning because they’re always getting older.
LUCY: Yeah, yeah, that’s exactly right.
PAM: There’s always something new.
LUCY: Yeah, I do like to think though that every bit of learning you’ve done paves the way for the next bit of learning. And, right now, with the kind of really incredibly amazing and opinionated and determined six-year-old, I’m thinking about how much this is paving the way for those incredibly opinionated and determined teenage years. (laughs)
We’re going to be just like so radically on board with everything they want to do by the time they’re teenagers, because we’ll have developed this sort of trust and acceptance. So, I’m quite excited about the future really, or maybe that’s just incredibly hopeful.
PAM: Well, I’ll just share my experience a little bit. The groundwork that you’re laying now and those first couple of years of really doing all this work to figure out the ways we all communicate our needs—it’s even about figuring out our needs, because we’re not used to that. Even as adults, to be able to just reasonably say, “I’m tired.” Or, to really bring ourselves to the moment without being manipulative about it.
LUCY: Yeah.
PAM: Yeah, to just bring all our stuff lightly, like you were talking about before, and finding ways to work through them and find those kind of win-win-win opportunities for us to move forward.
And I must say, by the time my kids got to their early teens and through their teen years, it was never argumentative. It was never issues that way at all. Mostly it was me stretching my comfort zones. (laughs)
Because they knew themselves so well, and the trust that we had together. Like, I knew they weren’t making choices or wanting to do things that they didn’t think they were capable of doing. There’s the way to put it. They were choosing things for reasons of their own, that made sense, and that they felt ready to do. So, when I was ready to stretch my comfort zones and help them accomplish those things, we were never at odds. It was all finding ways for myself to support them in ways that I was also comfortable enough with.
When my daughter was 13 and wanted to go into clubs for shows, for me to be comfortable I just said, “Sure, I’ll go with you.” You know? So, we did that. But yeah, it never felt like butting heads, let’s put it that way. So, I think you’re right. That was a long way to say you’re right, you’re building an amazing foundation. (laughs)
LUCY: (laughs) No, I always absolutely love hearing from people who have older children and who have been through those teenage years, because we talk about those teenage years as if it’s some kind of impending horror show I suppose.
And, I mean, I suppose mine was a little bit of a horror show for my parents, but I had an incredibly different upbringing. But I really believe it doesn’t have to be that way. I really believe that this partnership that we’re developing with our kids now is something that lasts your whole life long, and one of the things as well I think that unschooling has done for me—it’s made me trust everyone a lot more.
My children have asked that of me, but it’s something that I can extend now to everyone. I’ve become much, much, much less controlling about all these different situations. Like I can remember in the early years of our marriage, I would be texting everyone trying to get them in the right place at the right time, and kind of guessing what people’s needs were, and trying to kind of preempt how we could get them met. And I would just never do that now. I just sort of sit back and see how I could support someone to get their needs met, or, perhaps I can’t, and just need to trust that they’re making good decisions for themselves. And that’s something that you know extends from my children to my in-laws to my neighbor. It kind of is a really cool stance for all relationships, I think.
PAM: I just love that Lucy. And what’s really funny is I’m writing a book about the unschooling journey, and this is what I’ve been writing about this week!
LUCY: Oh, cool.
PAM: Yeah, that point where you realize it’s about being human, and it applies to everyone. And you lose that need to try and control other people “for their own good because you know the best way things will work out so smoothly.”
Because, after you do it a few times, isn’t it just amazing all the places that the ways things end up working out, like even better than we could have imagined at first, right? And tried to control it to A, but B was so much more awesome!
LUCY: I know! Like seriously, I talk about this a huge amount. Like the ridiculousness of taking a step back and just being like, “Look, I’m not going to get involved in this, I’m just going to see what happens.” And then the thing that happens is so much more better than anything you could have planned for. Yeah, it’s actually, it feels serendipitous. But maybe it’s because it’s the way the world is meant to work. You’re not meant to be hung up on everybody else’s choices. (laughter)
It sounds so obvious when we’re talking about it, but it’s really not obvious. And I think I had quite a few anguished years because I felt that I had an important role to play in lots of other people’s lives.
PAM: Oh no, I totally can remember just the uptightness back then, of trying to make sure everything worked out. That there needed to be Plan XYZ, and we need to follow it, and if we didn’t I was getting myself so frustrated and worked up. But anyway, anyway. (laughs) I guess we don’t need to talk about that forever. But it’s such a huge part …
LUCY: We probably can.
PAM: Yeah, exactly. I mean we could share a million stories I’m sure. But …
I was wondering what you have found to be the most challenging or the hardest part of your unschooling journey so far?LUCY: (pauses)
PAM: Or was that it? (laughs)
LUCY: Oh, well, that’s been like a definite shift.
The hardest challenge? Probably it’s not the hardest thing but the challenging thing has been: I guess unschooling has taken me on a journey to sort of ask questions about all sorts of different things and to really try and dismantle institutionalized thinking. And it’s a journey that I’m really appreciative of, but it’s been a journey that has definitely shaken the ground beneath my feet a little bit.
I was raised in a church, and I was raised in the Salvation Army, which is a really beautiful social justice loving movement of people, but it’s also quite regimented, or ordered, at least. And it’s been interesting for me to sort of look at institutions that I’ve been raised in, that have always provided a sort of structure to my life, and just try and hold on to the really good and beautiful parts of those things while really asking questions about the healthiness of other parts of it. And I guess what it comes down to is this sort of imperialist history of the human race, which is quite a big deal. Maybe we shouldn’t really go there. (laughter)
But when you look historically, the last hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years, we’ve been living in an incredibly controlled hierarchical society, that is really, really unhealthy. And I guess that was an unexpected challenge for me, was to become a bit of an anarchist. I mean, not quite an anarchist, but to just want to dismantle some of those structures in society that I don’t think are very healthy. And move away from those that have had a really important role in my life. So yeah, that’s probably been the biggest challenge, I think.
PAM: I think that’s a great one, because when we start, we don’t realize how far reaching it’s going to be, do we?
LUCY: No.
PAM: No, it’s amazing once you start realizing that choice is important. Not only for learning, but then for living. And when you start to see, you start to knock up against all these places where, like you said, the systems where we don’t have choice. And you start questioning every single one, don’t you, by the end of it?
LUCY: Yeah and I think I just say to myself, “Lucy, you don’t have to throw the baby out with the bath water.” (laughs)
PAM: Yup.
LUCY: So, you know, with the church, I guess where I’m at now is holding on to really healthy spirituality, which is really beautiful and really important, I think, whatever your spirituality is, for your well-being. And community and all that sort of thing. So, holding on to that. And then kind of letting the rest of it blow away. So yes, I say that a lot. “Don’t throw away the baby out with the bath water, Luce.”
PAM: That is such a great point, that was something that helped me. Because feeling uncomfortable with something didn’t automatically mean to reject it. Which I think lines up with your “Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water” phrasing. And to be able to hold my discomfort alongside my positive feelings about choice and whatever, so that I could dig deeper.
Like, when you can hold them both together, that’s when you can start to tease out the pieces that are helpful, like you were saying, alongside the pieces that aren’t working for me anymore. Because automatic resistance or knee-jerk “noes” aren’t much more useful than blindly following things either, right? Because you don’t understand yourself better through that process. We talk about that with our kids, right? Try not to automatically say no. Maybe you can say yes, but also, “Say yes more with your kids,” doesn’t mean always say yes. Because there’s no thought or consideration in that either, right?
LUCY: Yeah, but we so want black and white answers, don’t we?
PAM: I know, we do!
LUCY: (laughs)
PAM: Those rules are so easy, right? (laughs)
LUCY: Yeah, we just want it there in black and white. We just want to be able to go, like, “This is how it goes, this is the rule, this is what I need to do in this situation.” Yeah, but it’s just not really how we are, and it’s not really how the world should be. We need to kind of learn to operate in those gray areas, and to be flexible and fluid and resilient, and not need that sort of sturdy ground under our feet, but to feel really comfortable just floating in the chaotic unknown gray substance. (laughs)
PAM: Yeah, and like you said before, going back to the relationship, right? When you don’t know—yes, no, I have no rule to follow. Okay, let’s look and see foundationally how that is going to impact that relationship. Because, when it comes down to it, school years, childhood, those are just a flash of a lifetime right? And these are relationships that we’re going to have for our whole lifetime. They will always be our child. We’ll always be their parents, no matter the age, right? So that relationship is a lifetime thing. So, it’s so useful to keep that as your guide.
LUCY: Yeah.
So, I am curious—what has surprised you most about your journey so far?LUCY: Okay. The most surprising thing has probably been how unsurprising it has been, in the sense that it’s just been a life lived, I guess. And I think like maybe a few years ago when we were at the start of this unschooling journey, I think I imagined that with a six-year-old and four-year-old we would be rammed with projects and activities and it would be like a non-stop kind of educational life that we were all living together. And actually, I think that’s been the surprise, that it’s not. It’s just—we just wake up, and we do our thing.
And we have really fun days. We have those epic days of non-stop projects and making and learning, but we also have a huge number of just little bits and bobs in the day, da da da. And I think that’s the thing that is surprising for others when they sort of see our lives in action. (laughs)
We just have a really slow, really simple life that we’re just trying to live with as much time and space and patience and freedom every day. And I just think that the key to that is to not really be doing loads and loads and loads and loads of stuff. So that’s probably been the most surprising thing about it, is how unsurprising it’s been.
PAM: I love the way you describe that, because that was a huge revelation for me too. The concept of time. Time and space. When I write about unschooling, I use that phrase so bloody often. (laughs) Time and space. Because we are so used to go, go, go, go. I had no clue how much actual time and space we need; that we would take if given the opportunity.
LUCY: Yeah.
PAM: Right? To process, that down time, which we used to think of as “lazy,” or not doing anything productive, et cetera. How valuable and important that time is. I had no clue. (laughs)
LUCY: Yeah, and, you know, it might feel like it takes an hour for everybody to put their shoes on, so you can go out to the woods—I’m speaking from experience from this morning.
And that hour is really important because if you feel like you’ve got an hour for everybody to find their shoes and put them on, you’ve got space then for the trauma that happens when you can’t find socks with the right seams in the right place. You’ve got time to validate that person’s feelings and hug them until they’re ready to move on from that moment. You don’t have to snap at people to get them to hurry up, and you don’t have to forget things because you’ve all rushed out the door too quickly. You can definitely have all the snacks you need, you can definitely have the right socks with the right seams, and you can definitely all have the space you need to be patient with each other.
And increasingly I see—perhaps it’s in contrast because we’re here in England at the moment, and I’m quite busy with lots of different work things, and we’ve got hundreds of people it feels like to catch up with while we’re here, like friends and family. And so, at the moment, we are kind of a little bit like go, go, go, and it’s in such stark contrast to our life in the yurt, which is just basically no, no, no. (laughs)
Just like slow, slow, slow I should say, actually. It’s just really, really slow. And here I find myself having a quickening of the breath and a kind of, “(gasp) We don’t have time for me to validate all of these emotions!” And I realized how much of my parenting comes down to basically not really doing very much, but just being really present with your children and having the time to let them feel everything they need to feel, and connect with them in all those down times.
PAM: Yeah, that patience to be with them, right? Like you were saying, validate. Because that patience keeps your connection with them, and they see, through your patience, that you see them.
LUCY: Yeah.
PAM: Right? Because if we’re trying to rush them through things, they really don’t feel seen. Like I’m just putting myself in those spots. When I feel rushed through things, you have to kind of close off part of yourself, don’t you? Because you don’t have the time to feel whatever it is that’s coming up. Yeah, that’s brilliant.
You recently started a group and a website called Parent Allies, and I have joined. I am really looking forward to that. And I would love to know the inspiration behind it, and a bit about your plans for it?LUCY: Cool. So yeah, ParentAllies.org is the website, but there’s also a Facebook page and a Facebook group. And the group is probably the bit that I’m most excited about, because there’s a real community rising up around this idea. And the idea is taken from social justice movements, where in every rights movement so far there’s been a group of people who are in the sort of dominant group but have chosen to stand next to the marginalized group and advocate for them and support them and be people who will just show solidarity and do whatever they can to allow this group to have their rights met.
You’ve seen it in the Civil Rights movement, and in all sorts of movements over history. I’ve come to believe that children are one of the last marginalized groups in society; groups where it’s really socially accepted to basically marginalize them. You have conversations on Facebook where people are just like, “Yeah I don’t like kids.” And they’re almost proud or cool to sort of say it. And I really believe that there’s quite a systemic marginalization of children too, just in things like not having steps in public toilets so they can reach the taps or reach the toilet without having to climb over this grim thing. So those are a couple of little examples.
And the idea is that parents are invited to be allies to their children, to advocate for their needs and to show solidarity with them, and see their role as one where they’re partnering with their child to make sure their rights are fully honored and upheld.
On the website we are putting out lots of resources for people who are in different situations to share how they are allies to their children. And this is where it’s really exciting for me, because it’s moving right out of the education sphere. And I guess the root of the concept of parent allies, for me, came because I’ve been writing about unschooling for five years or so, and every time I write about unschooling in terms of respecting children, I have a lot of teachers and mums and dads of children who are at school say, “Well, how can I do this at home?” or “I feel like I do this, but my children do go to school.”
And so, by talking about parents as allies, we’re moving out of learning. We’re moving into the whole of life, whether you’re at school or not at school. Whoever you are in the world, you can be an ally to your child. So, the website is meant to be a resource for people who are choosing to be that.
And the Facebook group is a really, really supportive group where people can come in and they can ask for advice. You have to ask for advice—we don’t just give it willy-nilly, because I guess I’ve identified that that is a bit of a problem in our world. We’re so quick to give advice, rather than simply hearing someone’s story, or hearing someone’s problem.
So, there’s a tag where you can just say #solidarityplease, and that’s where you can come and you can talk about something that’s been bothering you or something you’re finding really hard, without getting any advice. You just get people saying, “Love to you” or “You’re doing really well” or, just showing solidarity. And then you can also ask for advice. And you can also get a high-five. You can go into the group and you can be like, “High five! I did really well with my kid today because this has been a bit of a struggle and I realized that in my role as an ally I need to help her and get this need met.” And then, you know, they’ll give details, and then everybody will say, “High five! High five!” (laughs)
And it’s sort of like, I guess it meets needs. It meets those needs of the parents to be heard, and in a way that is also respectful to their children. And it is a way to receive advice if you’re struggling with how to be an ally.
I think so often we have—I don’t really know what it is—maybe it’s a thing to do with human nature, but so often parents will think that they’ve got a problem that can only be solved with a punitive or disrespectful measure. They think, “Oh my kid doesn’t like brushing their teeth,” for example, “So the only thing I can do is hold them down and clean their teeth.” They sort of put up their own barriers and they say, “There’s no other answer. I’m mostly a respectful parent but, in this situation, I have to coerce my child.”
And the idea of the group is that we kind of crowd-source solutions. So very often people go in there and they’re like, “My child doesn’t want to clean their teeth.” And then we can say, “Oh I’ve been there and this worked for me, and this worked for me.” Because something I’ve found with parenting and problems is that answers one, two, and three don’t work, but four and five and six and seven and eight and nine might work. And I really think that in our role as an ally to our child, we can find the patience to look for four, five, six, seven, eight, and nine. Because it’s so important to us to remain connected and remain in partnership, and to respect their rights, that we’re willing to dig deep for those creative solutions. (sigh) That’s a little bit.
PAM: Yeah, that’s beautiful. And I love the idea of expanding it to all parents, and even the “come get a high-five” deal. Because it’s still an unconventional way to parent, right? If they tried to share that with like a more conventional friend or whatever, they would get the side-eye, like “What the heck did you—just tell them to brush their darn teeth!” (laughs)
LUCY: Yeah, “My child’s got a really creative urge to paint on the walls, so today I dedicated a whole part of the wall so my child could literally just paint the wall. Can I get a high-five?” You can imagine having that conversation with a conventional parent, and them just being like, “You let your child paint on the wall?!?” Whereas in the group, everybody is like, “Rock on! You’re amazing that you could come up with a solution for that urge!”
PAM: Yeah, that works for everyone. Because, as we were talking before, when we were talking about school, there are ways. If that’s a necessary part of your life, there are ways to still respect and nurture and care for your relationship with your child. Just because school is part of the picture doesn’t mean all your relationship has to be about control.
LUCY: Exactly. And I used to find myself writing to unschoolers, and unschoolers at heart, and what I mean by that is people who loved all of this rights, respecting, freedom-loving stuff, but did, for whatever reason, have to send their children to school. and I guess that is really why I tried really hard to come up with a term to describe all of the people that are wanting to live this way with their children, whether their kids are at school or not.
Because certainly we need parents and teachers within the education system—which I believe is incredibly coercive and oppressive—we need people in there standing up for children and saying, “You know what, it is a child’s right to go to the toilet when they need to go to the toilet.” You know, we need allies within the education system.
My kids are having fun, by the way. (laughs) I’m sure you can probably hear them, and it sounds horrible and terrifying, but they’re all gleeful sounds. (laughs)
PAM: (laughs) No, that’s lovely. Oh, and, I was going to mention, Emma and I, we do a book chat every couple of months, and we’re reading the Childism book.
LUCY: Oh, cool.
PAM: I forget her name—I’ll put it in the show notes [Elisabeth Young-Bruehl]. And I’ll have links to your Facebook group and your website, and all that stuff as well. I think that’s awesome. People are going to have a lot of fun checking that out.
LUCY: Oh, cool.
PAM: And I want to thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today. It was a lot of fun to finally get to chat with you Lucy.
LUCY: Yeah, totally. I feel kind of like, you know, we’re basically friends now, rather than people who know a little bit about each other from the internet. (laughs)
PAM: Yeah, exactly! Yeah, I was very much looking forward to chatting with you.
LUCY: Yeah, it’s been really lovely to be on here. Thank you so much for having me.
PAM: Yay! And before we go, where is the best place for people to connect with you online?
LUCY: I would probably say YouTube. People find me really personable on YouTube for some reason. It’s kind of a new channel, and I’ve been writing for seven years but only doing YouTube for a couple of years. But I think people find videos really helpful in a way that perhaps writing isn’t so. So, I’m on YouTube with my channel Lulastic and the Hippyshake. And I update that really regularly, like every single week, whereas other parts of the internet I’m slightly more like I pop in and pop out.
PAM: Awesome. I will definitely have the link to your channel there as well.
LUCY: Cool.
PAM: Thank you very much and have a great day. Have fun with the kids!
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For this week’s episode, we’re sharing the next Foundations episode of the Living Joyfully Podcast with Pam and Anna, There’s Plenty of Time.
It’s amazing how so many things that come up in our days can feel like emergencies, like they need to be solved as soon as possible. Taking a moment to consider whether the situation at hand is a true emergency can help us release so much of the time pressure that we’re feeling. Reminding ourselves that we have plenty of time gives us more space to explore the root of the issue. And with that space, we can imagine the possibilities with a curious, creative mindset.
We hope you enjoy today’s episode and that it helps you in your relationships and on your unschooling journey!
Listen to our conversation on YouTube.
THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODEWe invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network, a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents. It’s a non-judgmental space where you can steep in these unconventional ideas around parenting, relationships, and learning, and explore what they might look like day-to-day in your uniquely wonderful family. We offer a free month trial so you can see if it’s a good fit for you. Click here to join us.
Sign up to our mailing list on Substack to receive our email newsletters as well as new articles about learning, parenting, and so much more!
Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about exploring unschooling and navigating relationships.
EPISODE QUESTIONSWhen you imagine the idea that there’s plenty of time in the context of a disagreement with a friend, partner, or child, how does it feel? Expansive? Overwhelming? Just plain wrong? Why?Do you recall a time when an issue bubbled up again and again because you didn’t take the time up front to more fully understand it? Where in your life do you feel time pressure? What if you could release that? How would that feel?Can you think of a time when feeling time pressure interfered with coming up with a creative solution to a challenge?TRANSCRIPTPAM: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We are thrilled you’re here and interested in exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.
And in today’s episode, we are going to talk about the idea that there is plenty of time. Now, it has been such a helpful tool for me over the years when navigating challenges with the people I love, and I believe I first heard about it from you, Anna!
It’s amazing how so many things that come up in our days can feel like emergencies, like they need to be solved as soon as possible. I think taking a moment to consider whether the situation at hand is a true emergency can help us release so much of the time pressure that we’re feeling. Reminding ourselves that we have plenty of time gives us more space to explore the root of the issue, rather than throwing Band-aid after Band-aid at it just to quickly solve it. “I gotta get this, I gotta move through it.” It’s so fascinating just to consider having plenty of time.
ANNA: Yes. Oh my goodness. So, it has been one of my main mantras for a very long time. Our society likes to operate with this extreme sense of urgency about everything and I get caught up in that really easily. I feel like time pressure is just a huge trigger for me that kind of sets me on this path of not thinking and just being really stressed out.
And the thing is, I like to get things done. I like to check boxes. I like moving on to the next thing, and that can have its place. I can be super productive. But what I found was that carrying that sense of urgency around all the time did not help with my relationships at all. It takes time to navigate things in a relationship, and if you stop and take a breath, you can ask, is this really urgent? Is it an emergency? Does this need to be solved right this second? And often, you’ll find the answer is, no. It does not need to be solved right this second. I can calm down.
PAM: Right? And I find that even when we recognize that it’s not an emergency, I feel that time pressure can trigger our need to perform, if that makes sense. As I was thinking, it’s like, okay, yes, this is not emergency, but then boom, I still want to perform well. I want to solve it quickly and efficiently. I want to get an “A” in problem-solving, to be productive, because those are strong cultural messages we hear so often. But are they actually helpful goals in and of themselves, particularly when other people are involved?
Another question that I found very useful to ask myself is, are we looking for future approval or validation about how we handle the situation? That’s that performance piece, maybe from a person that we anticipate telling about the situation in the future. Are we looking at that more than we’re looking with care and compassion to the other person in front of us who’s involved?
And yes, being someone who jumped straight to problem solving for many years and still works on it, another consequence I found was that solving a problem quickly was often shorthand for implementing my solution, which relationship-wise, often meant pushing through the other person’s consent. And maybe not even obviously pushing through it, but more so by not even slowing down to ask them for their thoughts and ideas. Instead, just presenting my solution with an energy of, “Of course this makes sense and you’ll agree. Let’s do it.”
But I came to see that that approach definitely took a toll on my relationships, on my connections with the people in my life. Their trust in me dwindled because they felt less seen and heard by me over time, because I wasn’t asking them what they thought. I wasn’t asking them for their ideas. I was just saying, “Oh yeah, look, this happened. We can do this instead. Let’s go.” Just pulling them along with my energy.
ANNA: Exactly. And as you’ll hear us say so many times, everyone wants to feel seen and heard. So, anything that’s short circuiting that is going to be an issue. And that’s the thing. When we are holding speed and efficiency and production ahead of people and connection, it’s going to take a toll. Period. And again, I like to be efficient and get things done. So, this isn’t about just stopping all the things, but for me, it’s about being aware of the energy I’m bringing into a situation.
And if another person is involved, am I taking the time to really hear them and understand them, especially if we’re talking about our most important relationships? It’s key to avoiding conflicts and misunderstandings to give ourselves time to really hear one another. And I’m one who likes to fix and solve and to be fair, I have some very good ideas, Pam.
PAM: You do. You do.
ANNA: But no one wants to be dragged along, even for my really good idea. And so, remembering what we’ve talked about in the past on the podcast, how different everyone is. We see and process the world differently. So, my really good idea might be a really good idea for me and not for the person I’m in relationship with. But if I push through their consent with this intense sense of urgency, it ends up just leaving us feeling so disconnected.
PAM: Yes. And when I’m feeling time pressure, particularly self-imposed time pressure, I’ve found that I am much more apt to take that conventional straight-line path from A to B to solve the problem, because it feels like a race against the clock to me. But when I can realize that that’s happening and remind myself that there’s plenty of time, I feel more expansive and free to be curious. I feel I have the space to more creatively navigate a challenge, because you know what? And that’s fine, too. If it was just me, I could take my straight-line, A to B and do it and move on, but as I chat with the other person or the people that are involved, I can give them that space and just slowly map out what’s going on. There are signposts of everyone’s needs.
Maybe there’s lines of trees representing the constraints that we’re discovering. Maybe environmental constraints, maybe time constraints, maybe capacity constraints. Maybe there’s hills for aspects that feel a little bit harder. And flower gardens or some beautiful art in spots that we’d like to pass by if it works. And from there, once we kind of start to fill in that map, we can more fruitfully begin exploring paths through the space of the challenge that hit most of the need sign posts, navigate around many of the hills, and maybe even take some time to stop and soak in the view of a sunflower field in bloom.
I know, maybe that sounds a bit sappy. But in my experience, our lives are so much richer when we give ourselves the time and space to be open and curious about the situation, to chat and ponder a bit more to get creative.
ANNA: Yes. I love that image. Honestly, I can feel my body slowing down just thinking about it. And so, I think finding what helps you stay present in the moment and slow yourself down. Even to notice the sense of urgency and slow it down. So, what kind of imagery, what kind of breathing, what kind of things in the moment help bring you down? And again, that mantra of, “There’s plenty of time,” this vision of a map of all the possibilities we have, like whatever that is.
And I think another aspect of peeling back the layers related to this is to look at where is the sense of urgency coming from? What is its purpose? Who is it serving? And asking those questions really helped me kind of deconstruct this a little bit, because the truth of it is, when we’re rushing from task to task, there’s very little time to question anything.
And I think sometimes we think that sense of urgency is coming from within us, but I don’t think it is. I think we’ve been trained to rush, to value efficiency and productivity above all else. And I think humans naturally want to connect, and the two just don’t really work well together.
So, the question for me becomes, do I want to sacrifice or harm my relationships so that I can be a better producer for society? And I would argue that people in strong connected relationships actually bring more to the world and end up producing the most amazing things. And so, how this looks in practice for me is, when I find myself feeling frustrated or trying to rush someone along to my chosen outcomes, I just stop and I take that breath and I say, “There’s plenty of time.” And I feel it. The energy instantly changes.
And if I’m still struggling, I will ask myself, “Where is the sense of urgency coming from? Is it even real? And is it helping? Because even if we feel there is some real time constraint, there is some real thing that’s driving it, is it helping me make the choices in the moment? Is it helping the two of us get through this situation? Because if it’s not, we still need to set it aside, even if it’s a real thing, because we’re not getting anywhere.
And, as I mentioned, so often this applies to our relationships with both kids and adults. Rushing a child out the door frustrated or pushing a partner to get something done on a timeline without regard to their experience of it, it just doesn’t feel good to anyone. So, reminding myself there’s plenty of time just grounds me back in that moment.
Because the truth of it is, if we’re five minutes late, if we miss the thing altogether, if the project doesn’t get done, the world does not end. Most likely, a year later, it’ll be hard to even remember what the issues were. But if we continually push past the people in our life, if we push them along this arbitrary timeline, it will absolutely impact the relationship, and that’s something I want to avoid.
Again, back to priorities from episode one, I want to keep my relationships as the priority. And if what’s being handed to me by society is in conflict with that, then I want to question it and ultimately set it aside.
PAM: Yes, exactly. With relationships as my priority, I want to use that lens as I navigate my days. And it’s fascinating to discover how often cultivating connected relationships is at odds with the societal messages that we hear or even just infer from how people are moving through and navigating their days all around us.
ANNA: So true!
PAM: The immense value given to having power and influence over others, the call to create strong boundaries to protect ourselves from others, the importance of being productive members of society at the expense of others, it is just so interesting to think about how relationships, while talked about so often as being an important part of our lives, in reality, are often expected to take a backseat.
So, with that, here are some questions you might want to ponder as you explore the idea that there’s plenty of time.
Our first one is, when you imagine the idea that there’s plenty of time in the context of a disagreement with a friend, partner, or child, how does it feel? Just bring that idea, that lens of plenty of time in. Does it feel expansive? Does it feel overwhelming? Does it feel just plain wrong? “No, I don’t have time.” “Why?” is a great question to ask yourself at that point. What is it that’s making me feel like I don’t have time in this situation?
The next question is, do you recall a time when an issue bubbled up again and again because you didn’t take the time up front to more fully understand it? I find things can bubble up and we can solve them. We can put that Band-aid on them. But if we don’t take the time to get to the root of things and really find out what the underlying need is, or play around with the process through which we move through things that come up regularly in our lives, we can just see it happening again and again.
ANNA: I think that one can help people that have the efficiency piece, because really it is more efficient to take the time and deal with it and to actually figure out how we want to move through it, versus the plugging the holes or the Band-aids that we end up having to revisit and revisit and revisit the same challenges.
PAM: Exactly. Exactly. It is so interesting to think about that, that we think we’re being efficient, we think we’re being productive, but so often, maybe it bubbles up over and over, but maybe it has relationship implications that I have to spend time with later. So, you can start to discover that it’s really a choice of, where do I want to put my energy in the process? In the space up front or into the, going through it again and again.
Okay. Okay. Question three. Where in your life do you feel time pressure? What if you could release that, how would that feel? I think that could be a big one, too. And if you release that, how would that feel? And where is it coming from? Is it something that I am putting on myself? Because so often, it’s something that we’re doing.
ANNA: So often, it’s something we’re putting on ourselves that again, we kind of think is coming from somewhere else, maybe our job, or maybe school, or maybe something else.
But really when we look at it, it’s our interpretation of that that’s putting this super intense sense of urgency and time pressure on it.
PAM: Yes, yes. And sometimes we’re just feeling that we have to bring somebody else’s framework or approach and be the voice of them, whether that be society or a boss or a teacher, and that I have to be them now, because they’re not here to say it, but is that how I really feel?
All good stuff. Okay. Our last question. Can you think of a time when feeling time pressure interfered with coming up with a creative solution to a challenge? And this is one I just would love people to think about, because what I discovered over time is that even when it is just me, it can be so useful to take the space not to just go with A to B, the first thing that comes to mind.
I have found there are so often more creative ways that that feel even better, that may be even more fun. There are so many possibilities. So, when I just let myself play with these things, take that time pressure off myself of something that I need to do, like the bathroom thing. It’s like, just do the damn bathrooms and get it done. I can tell myself that story, but it’s so much easier or so much more fun when I can just give myself some space to play with it.
ANNA: Yeah. And I think the time allows us to bring in the context that we talk about so much, because if we’re just going point A to point B, we’re really missing a lot of context around us. And then that can inform us, because again, maybe it helps us make a decision that saves us some work down the road or that keeps a relationship intact that we might be running over. And so, taking that time for ourselves to take in that context, to me, just makes it easier, more fun, and a lot of times, even more efficient.
PAM: Exactly. Exactly. Okay. Thanks so much for listening, everyone, and we will see you next time. Bye!
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In this episode of Exploring Unschooling, Pam, Anna, and Erika talk about navigating all the needs in our unschooling families. Navigating all the needs can be one of the biggest puzzles of parenthood. In many cases, we’re going from only being responsible for ourselves, to then being in partnership with someone else, to then adding children one by one. And as the children are growing, they each have their own ideas and their own personalities and their own needs. And so, the number of needs that exist in our family at any given time is just increasing as we have more children.
In our conversation, we talk about some common challenges that come up, how to approach problem solving with curiosity, and ways to have conversations with our family that move us from trying to control and direct to collaboration.
We hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey and in your relationships!
Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube.
THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODEWe invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network, a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents. It’s a non-judgmental space where you can steep in these unconventional ideas around parenting, relationships, and learning, and explore what they might look like day-to-day in your uniquely wonderful family. We offer a free month trial so you can see if it’s a good fit for you. Click here to join us.
Sign up to our mailing list on Substack to receive our email newsletters as well as new articles about learning, parenting, and so much more!
Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about exploring unschooling and navigating relationships.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPTANNA: Hello! I’m Anna Brown from Living Joyfully and I’m joined by my co-hosts Pam Laricchia and Erika Ellis.
PAM AND ERIKA: Hello! Hi!
ANNA: Happy to have you both here. Before we get started, I wanted to encourage you to check out our Substack, When School Isn’t Working, at whenschoolisntworking.substack.com.
It’s a great resource to share with friends who are feeling stuck and when you’re hearing those stories about kids being upset or crying or things not working and people just feeling at their wit’s end. It’s just a good place for that and we would love to have you join us there.
Today on the podcast, we’re talking about navigating all the needs. This is a big topic and I’m excited to have the chance to dig into it today. Erika, would you like to get us started?
ERIKA: I would! I love this topic, too, and it’s been a monthly theme on the Living Joyfully Network which was really fun. So basically, I see navigating all the needs as one of the biggest puzzles of parenthood. In many cases, we’re going from only being responsible for ourselves, to then being in partnership with someone else, to then adding children one by one. And as the children are growing, they each have their own ideas and their own personalities and their own needs. And so, the number of needs that exist in our family at any given time is just increasing as we have more children.
I only have two children, but it can still present so many interesting challenges, because as we’re always saying, people are different, and that includes our kids who we may have even assumed would be like us, but then they turn out to have quite different needs than we do. So I wanted to give a couple of common examples of just where the idea of navigating all the needs might come up and then I’m excited to see what nuances we dive into in our conversation.
One that seems to come up a lot is when some of us may like to go out of the house to do activities and others don’t as much or as often and so what can we do then?
And another is with sleep. People have different needs for how long they sleep, what time they sleep, the conditions for sleep, and this can be a real puzzle in families.
And finally another example that comes to mind was during that time of early childhood when we have babies and toddlers and how to fit in the care needs of the adults when the children just have so many seemingly constant care needs. Just the basics like eating, showering, rest, and movement. Sometimes it can just feel overwhelming to try to figure out these kind of challenging moments.
And what I like about the kind of deep processing and thinking that we do here on the podcast and in the Network and really just on my unschooling journey overall is that kind of processing invites me to slow down, get curious, and really assume that there are ways to figure it all out. Everything can’t always happen at the same time, but there will be solutions that we can find that will address all the needs the best that we can.
And so, I think coming in with that kind of mindset really helps when it starts to feel like there’s just too many competing needs. So, those are my initial thoughts.
PAM: Good ones. I love your examples. Those are pretty common ones that we hear about and see in the Network all the time.
And, for me, and when I’m thinking back to the transition to unschooling, the idea of meeting all the needs, at first it could just feel overwhelming. It’s like, how on earth? Someone needs to kind of judge which needs we’re going to meet and which ones we can’t meet and here’s the most effective slash efficient way to meet those needs.
And we really feel like we’re doing our best for the people that we love. And it can feel very disappointing, disconcerting when people don’t appreciate all the work we did to think all that through and figure this out. That was a lot of work right there. That’s really when my mantra for myself of being open and curious came in. And it was encouraging to hear from other unschoolers who were further on the journey than I. It is possible it can be done. And so, I’ll try it and see. It was making that shift to being open and curious.
Open to it doesn’t mean me not thinking it through at all. I can have ideas that consider everyone who’s involved and also the bigger picture context that I see that others might not see, etc. But as we were talking about in the last episode people can’t read our minds. If I just show up with a plan that’s the most effective and efficient, then how are you going to get buy in? When people don’t know what’s going on. And when the kids are younger, then maybe that’s your partner. Anybody else who’s involved.
The communication holds the clues, even if they’re not verbal from our kids. The resistance, the crying, all those pieces are communication to tell us when something that we’re trying to do is or isn’t working and helping. So being open and curious was so helpful just to be open to seeing and hearing other people’s perspectives and what their needs are.
And sometimes it’s helping them sort out what the actual need is. “I want to do this.” Why? What’s going to be really fun about that? And we can join them in that excitement rather than trying to shut things down right away. If we want to navigate all the needs we need to be open to hearing about them and to actually find or try to find the root of it.
Because maybe I want to go here, I want to go to the park. And if you can get more into the details of it, then it can be a lot easier to find that common ground where we can meet that need.
Like you were saying, Erika, maybe it’s not right now, maybe it’s okay if we do it in the evening when someone else is home to stay with someone who doesn’t want to go. Just being so curious about, what does that really mean to you? What would feel good about doing that thing? So that we can meet that need.
Getting to the need rather than the action that someone’s proposing that would meet the need. There’s a distinction, a level, a depth to it. So once we can start getting to the needs themselves and then get curious. Oh, what if we did this? What if we did that? And just being totally open to the yes, no, maybe, like what if we did that? That was one of the things I managed to keep going forward with because, oh my gosh, kids really are capable.
They really are capable of understanding that piece, what they would love the most about this. And being able to share that kind of information and to be able to hear from us even if it is disappointing. We can’t make that work right now. We don’t have the car or whatever, whatever. We’ll need to save up a bit of money. Whatever the thing is but it can really be a conversation. And that’s why we love using the word navigate. Right? Because it’s not, let’s figure out the answer.
It’s not the answer. You may eventually come to a path and you’ll take the next step on the path and it might tweak what you know along the way before you ever get to the end of whatever the moment is. But yeah, for me, it was so much about the shift to being open and curious with our kids and having those conversations.
ANNA: Okay, so many things have bubbled up. I think a big piece was what you said, Erika, was the slowing it down. Because I can be about efficiency. But efficiency is usually me jumping to an outcome. So, that was another big piece, bringing open and curious. Letting go of whatever outcome.
Because you know my brain when I hear a problem. So somebody’s telling me they want to do this, they want to do that. I am trying to solve the puzzle because I like to do that. But I’m often locking in on a particular solution and it’s not flexible at that point. And so that was a big piece of me just letting go. I don’t know how this is going to play out. We have a lot of competing needs but I’m going to slow down. We’re going to dig in a little bit like you were saying Pam. Get to what’s underneath of it.
Okay what’s at the playground? Oh you’re actually just wanting to fly this kite or do this particular thing. We can do that right out here in the street in front of us or in the backyard. Okay, you’re not wanting to go because you want to still play your game on your device. Okay, we can bring that with us or we can set up something.
Once we have those conversations, things open up. Two other things that bubbled up, one was creativity. I think when we slow down and have that open and curious mindset, that’s where the creativity comes in and kids are so creative. Because I would sometimes get stuck on maybe what seems fair or something that would be in my mind about it and their solutions I’m thinking hmm, does that really work? But they were both happy with it. So it was okay. Why am I inserting anything into this?
But when we’re all creatively listening to what the roadblocks are for each person, we get a chance for everybody to be creative. Yeah, I’m okay to wait till tomorrow. Can we then add this thing to it if we do it tomorrow? Yes, we can do that and then this time we can get this. So, that creative problem solving, collaborative energy I really loved.
And I think another big big piece was the mindset shift to trust. For me, I had to have this deep abiding trust that we could solve it, that we could figure out a way that we could all feel comfortable. And again, it might take a little bit of time. It might not be right in that moment, but that trust is so important.
What I found in our family was me having that trust suddenly fostered that trust in everybody. Even when we bumped up against something that felt like there’s no solution, if I was feeling a little low and wondering if we were going to get there, they would say, we’re going to figure it out! And so I loved that it was just the energy of we’ll just keep at it. We’ll figure it out. We may have to step away for a minute and come back depending on what it is but there is room to trust that we can find solutions that feel good to everyone.
And so, that’s the problem-solving piece of when you have those competing needs but I think you touched on too, Erika, that just sometimes it’s young kids and how do we take care of ourselves and all of those pieces and that’s a little bit different but I think the slowing it down, creative energy, trusting that there’s plenty of time and that we can find it, calms me enough to then see the moments where I can take care of myself or the moments where we can create a little bit more space around something. Anytime I’m getting worked up and tight or too far ahead of myself it actually just compounds whatever is happening in the moment that’s feeling stressful.
ERIKA: Yeah, if we get too caught up in seeing the finish line, we can picture how it would work, we have the vision of that. And if we get stuck there, then we can’t see all the other possibilities that really could get us to the same place. With the little kids situation, I think a lot of parents really try to just do it all themselves and not ask for help, because that’s the vision. And they should be able to do it. And so, just little things like, there are lots of ways that we can solve this problem. There are ways that we haven’t thought of yet.
Getting creative, getting unconventional, what works for someone maybe it doesn’t even work so well for someone else. What we see working for someone else may not be the solution for our family. It just depends on the different individuals in our family.
And I think when we really value every family member’s contributions to these conversations, it’s just so amazing. It’s such a great experience for kids. It’s a great experience for parents to be able to all be working together as a team. It’s something that we might not have experienced ourselves as kids and so I think that’s why it has a learning curve and takes some time to understand, how do we even do this? I’m so used to the parents just saying what’s going to happen and then that’s what happens and that’s the answer. But we all know that sort of parenting has some downsides to it.
If we’re trying to do something different, getting everyone involved in the conversation, making sure that everyone knows, I hear your needs, too, and those are also important. It’s as important to me as getting my needs met and we can figure out a way that all of these things can happen. That’s a really valuable problem-solving skill and important conversational skills to have that they can take with them in their adult lives.
PAM: Yes. Two things that bubbled up for me. One both of you were speaking about is I remember when the kids were younger and I was trying to navigate my own needs in this very hands-on care season. What I found was when I was trying to make those plans for the shower or whatever, I would try to plan it. It would be like, okay at 3:00 they have their nap and I’m gonna take my shower. But then they don’t fall asleep at 3:00 and my shower plans are shot for another day. That shift from trying to plan ahead and making life fit those plans versus, I’m just gonna pay attention to when I can have ten minutes to jump in the shower.
It may not look like we’re expecting. Maybe somebody drops in and they can hold the baby for ten minutes while I go jump in the shower. I don’t have to entertain them. They would love to have some quiet time with the baby. Then it’s the creativity you were talking about. These are the things that I would like to do and I’m going to watch out for moments, so adding those into the flow weaving them into what’s actually happening, versus trying to create what happens to match some future plan I have in my head. So, that was the first thing that bubbled up.
The other piece is something I bring up when these conversations come up, when we’re chatting with our kids. It doesn’t have to be everybody involved talking together to come up with the plan. Maybe it’s me going and talking with one child and trying to speak with them about what their needs are and why this doesn’t feel good because having an audience maybe just doesn’t feel good to them or getting comments from others trying to work it out. Giving people the space to think about their needs to talk about their needs to feel validated to be validated about their needs and then with a deeper understanding that you can go talk to the next child and bring up why that doesn’t feel good because of this or that. “Maybe we could try this.”
There’s a depth of understanding as they’re learning a little bit about each other as well through me alongside trying to figure it out. So there were times when I was doing that circle for a while until we figured out, oh yeah that’ll work, that’ll work, that’ll work. Okay off we go! So, that was one piece.
And then the other piece was for ones who aren’t as much into the conversation, they’re still communicating even as young kids. “I don’t want to talk about it,” that’s still communication, right? That’s letting you know something, maybe just getting some sort of short word, maybe a shrug, maybe a nah and just circling back. And also knowing okay that is not the child in this season that I go and give long five-minute paragraphs explaining all the context and everything that’s going on. Maybe it’s like three seconds. Does thinking about doing this sound good and we’re done. I get feedback and then I can go off and think if it did or did not sound good. It’s just understanding the people who we are talking with and engaging with and communicating with that it might not always be all about the words.
ANNA: That’s so important. Not everybody is that deep conversationalist who is able to even articulate their needs, but I love what you did with that separate space because I think that helps them have the space to think about it. Because especially if they’re siblings, I don’t want to do that while they’re trying to think about what their need is. It’s hard, but giving them that quiet space where they can say, okay, this part I don’t mind, this part I do. I love that piece.
And then there was something that you said, Erika, that I wanted to highlight again. I think you stated it is like sometimes looking for the unconventional solution and what that brought to mind for me was sometimes in these situations we’re taking that outside lens of how other people see this or how are other people doing it and I think that can really derail us.
Even if we take it within an unschooling environment and take something like sleep. Some families have this around-the-clock thing going and it’s working very well because it’s working for their child and that makes sense and that could be a solution.
Or maybe in your particular family you are thinking, that wouldn’t work because of your partner’s schedule or because of this thing or because of my own whatever. You don’t have to do it that way. I think what I wanted to pull out from when you said that was just really circle the wagons and look at the people that are involved in your family, because whatever solution you come up with that you all feel good about, it doesn’t matter what it looks like to the outside world. It really doesn’t. No one cares. They don’t. They’re wrapped up in their own thing so just really finding the creative solutions that feel good to you.
You might get a side eye from an in-law or something else if you decide to do around-the-clock or something different, but if you know it’s working for you and your kids, that’s all that matters. So, sometimes watch that outside noise, because I think that’s one thing that gets in the way of us finding the creative solutions.
ERIKA: Yeah I had made a little note that says “make sure you’re not just responding to what they will think about our solutions.”
I know we talk about this a lot, but it’s not like you find the one answer and then that’s going to work forever either. As needs come up, as we see what’s rubbing, as problems come up, conflicts, whatever it feels like in your family, then we do it again. So we get practice figuring it out. I’ll catch my husband saying something like, “But you like doing the XYZ.” It’s frustrating when they change their minds about how things used to work and now they want something different. But I think that happens to all of us. We all are growing and changing and so what works to meet our needs during one season, it’s not gonna work for another season.
That was another thing I wanted to bring up, seasons. Just to keep grounding back into even when this feels like too many needs at once eventually it’s going to change.
ANNA: Yeah yeah and just really quickly, I think what you just said could actually be helpful for the outside voices too. To just say, “for now”. This is what’s working for us for now so maybe that calms them if they’re thinking wow that’s looking really unconventional or strange but instead, it’s like oh they found something that’s feeling good for now. Sorry, go ahead!
PAM: That’s fine, that’s great and because what I was taking away from that, I love the seasons thought and I think it can help in both ways. When things are going well, it’s not getting attached, like your husband saying, “But this is the way it’s been.” “You like this thing,” or, “You don’t like this thing.” And not taking it in as a failure if we’ve solved this. This is the way that works for us now and if something breaks in that like stops working, starts rubbing, if we take that on us as a failure, then our energy can feel judgmental to the person who has changed. “Why did you change? Why don’t you like this anymore?” I like all those pieces.
So, thinking of it as seasons can help with that and then also when things aren’t going well. When you’re in a season when things are rubbing, when you’re still trying to figure out how this might work where everyone’s needs are getting met. Whether it’s trying to figure out sleeping arrangements or whatever, whatever, it can feel like you’ll be stuck there forever and like you’ll never find a solution, etc.
So, again reminding ourselves that this is a season and like you were saying earlier, I know we’ll figure this out at some point. Not putting agendas and timetables and targets on it can just be so helpful to keep that open and curious energy as you’re navigating.
ANNA: Well, thank you everyone for joining us. I hope you enjoyed this conversation. I know we’re not solving how to navigate all the needs but hopefully some ideas about slowing down, being creative can help. Because for me, that shift of energy can make such a big difference. I appreciate all the things that came up during this call and hopefully it will spark some ideas for meeting the needs of your families.
We would love, love, love for you to join us at the Living Joyfully Network. It is such a beautiful supportive community and we love diving into these topics. It feels great to move through some of these situations with other people because we’re all so different.
We’re coming from different countries, different phases of life, different ages of children but the ideas and that intention is there and it really makes such a difference for the conversations. I find them just so rich and really, really enjoy it.
If you would like to learn more and join us you can follow the link in the show notes. Thanks for listening and joining us today.
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In this episode, we were so grateful to be joined by Melissa Crockett-Joyoue of the Unschooling Summit and Weave ND. Melissa shared her dramatic journey to unschooling, her experience as a neurodivergent parent of neurodivergent kids, and how amazing unschooling has been for all of them. We also talked about increasing our capacity through intentional self care practices and being an entrepreneur while unschooling.
It was a very rich conversation that we hope you enjoy!
QUESTIONS FOR MELISSACan you tell us a little bit about you and your family and what everyone’s interested in right now? And then we would also love to hear a bit about your story of coming to unschooling.
Before the call, you mentioned how valuable unschooling as a lifestyle can be for ND kids. How have you seen that in action?I know you talk about the importance of building capacity for ourselves. Can you share some of your ideas around that?
You’ve mentioned your online community, Weave, and there’s The Unschooling Summit event you co-host with Esther Jones. We’d love to hear more about those and a bit of your experience weaving unschooling together with being an entrepreneur.
Listen to our conversation on YouTube.
THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODEWeave Community: weave-community.mn.co
Weave IG: www.instagram.com/weave_nd
Melissa Unschooling – IG: www.instagram.com/mama.weaves
The Unschooling Summit: www.theunschoolingsummit.org
We invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network, a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents. It’s a non-judgmental space where you can steep in these unconventional ideas around parenting, relationships, and learning, and explore what they might look like day-to-day in your uniquely wonderful family. We offer a free month trial so you can see if it’s a good fit for you. Click here to join us.
Sign up to our mailing list on Substack to receive our email newsletters as well as new articles about learning, parenting, and so much more!
Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about exploring unschooling and navigating relationships.
TRANSCRIPTERIKA: Hello everyone, I am Erika Ellis from Living Joyfully and I’m joined by my co-hosts, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia, as well as our special guest today, Melissa Crockett-Joyoue. Hello to you all.
MELISSA: Kia ora.
ERIKA: But before we begin our conversation with Melissa, I wanted to invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network, which has really been life changing for me in so many ways. On the Network, we have amazing discussions about so many topics since our community has such a wide variety of experiences. Everyone in the Network is really learning and growing and being intentional with their families.
It’s unlike any other online community I’ve found. Being part of the Network offers powerful support, especially during moments when questions and fears come up, or if you’re new to unschooling and just need a place where people understand the journey. If you’d like to learn more about the Living Joyfully Network and check it out for yourself, you can click the link in the show notes. We would love to meet you there.
We are so excited to have Melissa joining us today on the podcast. She is the co-founder of the Unschooling Summit, and the founder of WeaveND, an online membership community supporting neurodivergent unschooling families with a focus on building capacity and connection for the parents. She lives in New Zealand and is mama to two unschooling kids. I met Melissa recently when I participated in her Sunday Session with Esther Jones, which is part of the Unschooling Summit. I’m excited to learn more about her in our conversation today.
And so to get us started, Melissa, can you tell us a little bit about you and your family and what everyone’s interested in right now? And we’d also love to hear a bit about your story of coming to unschooling.
MELISSA: Okay. Well, I’ll check back in an hour with you. So, kia ora koutou. So I’m Melissa and you know that we’ve done that part. I live in Aotearoa, New Zealand. I live in a small coastal rural fishing village, which is approximately an hour north of Auckland. I grew up in the very far north.
I’m part M?ori on my mother’s side, and a big mix on my dad’s side, and grew up really intensely connected to that part of me growing up in a small, predominantly M?ori area in the far north. And my wife and I, she is from St Lucia in the Caribbean. And we have two children.
So we have T?mana, who is 10. And we have Hinem?rie and she is seven and a half. Hinem?rie did three part days at preschool with me in attendance and was a big fat no. And that was her journey in mainstream schooling. And T?mana did a year at our really lovely little country school with a role of 60 kids max. It was probably about 55 when he was there, a school that I had been on the board of governance of for three years before I even got pregnant, because we moved to a small town and I wanted to make connections and help out. And I thought, I’m going to make the school really awesome so when my kids get there it will be great. That didn’t turn out quite how I anticipated.
So, that’s where we live. And we live on a big, big property that my parents own. So it’s native forest. They live there as well in a different dwelling within shouting distance. And my uncle lives there as well. And my brother and his wife and two kids live just a five minute drive away.
So, it’s a beautiful intergenerational kind of living with all the ups and downs of that when you are striking out on a different path. My parents are supportive, really supportive of the unschooling stuff, more challenged by understanding the neurodivergent stuff, because they’re neurodivergent too, they don’t know it yet. They’re working it out. So, we have a different parenting style that they are trying to be supportive of. And we’re all kind of learning how that works.
Our journey to unschooling was a mixture of, longer than I wish it had been in hindsight now, and kind of quite quick to jump straight into unschooling in other ways. So as I said, I was quite invested in the whole local school and so on. I was also doing fundraisers for them. I was working on M?ori strategy with them and so on.
So, when T?mana was smaller, he had really intense food allergies. And so we didn’t do a lot of socializing with him. We lived quite an unschooling kind of lifestyle anyway. He didn’t go to any kind of childcare. He was only ever looked after by my mum occasionally.
It was a very kind of attachment-style parenting. And I ran a M?ori language play group with my sister-in-law. And so he socialized there. But apart from that, play dates were really hard because of his food allergies. And he liked other kids, but there was always something. He really liked adults. For his fourth birthday party, his list was all grown-ups and elderly people he wanted to come to his party. And so it was always a little bit challenging. And he really liked babies. Those were his key interest areas with other kids.
We put him into preschool when he was three and he wouldn’t go inside. And we just thought, oh he’s just such an outdoor boy and he just wanted to move rocks and climb trees and ride bikes. But every time he went inside, he’d get really upset, particularly if it was raining.
Now I’m looking back and seeing all these flags for sensory overload and stuff that we just didn’t know or understand at the time. And we thought that it was his food allergies making him really cautious around other kids. So, he did a little bit of preschool, like two mornings a week. But I had a new baby and I might get him there at 10 and he might have to finish at 12. So he did about two hours twice a week max.
When my daughter was eight months old, I actually had three SCAD heart attacks, Spontaneous Coronary Artery Dissections, which were near fatal and pretty extreme. And I spent five weeks in hospital. And it is a key part of our story because it was very traumatic for the children.
So T?mana was there for two of the times, including one which was cardiac arrest. And it meant that he had really severe separation anxiety. And the nature of him anyway, he was very, very attached. But this was really intense. And so I spent five weeks in hospital and had to have open heart surgery. And he kept going to preschool during that time. But it was really difficult for him.
So, it was probably a year later that it was time for him to start school in New Zealand, we start at five. And pretty much everyone just goes at five. You legally don’t have to be there until you’re six. But I knew that he was going to need a long transition into school. I felt that. And the preschool and school were right next door. So, we had this plan in progress. And then COVID happened.
So we locked down at home. And that suited him really well. And also, after I recovered in that period of time, my wife got really sick, but that came after. So, we put him into school. And it went abysmally, basically, from the get go. And after a few months, he started halfway through the year. He started in June. And so the other kids had kind of settled in at the beginning of the year. He only had 10 kids in his class, but it was just too much. And I’m trying to think how I can make this shorter.
So basically, school was really difficult. He, from the very first day, it was screaming violent meltdowns from him. And I couldn’t lift him because of my chest surgery and stuff. And so my mum helped literally drag him into school. And we pushed him in the door. And the teacher closed the door on him. And it was horrific. And I was really fully in PTSD still at that point. So I was having panic attacks and stuff. And so it was, it was intense. It was really hard.
And then they did the classic thing of, you know, 10 minutes later, sending a photo of him playing and being like, he’s fine. But this didn’t stop. And pretty much every day was traumatic for all of us.
And we had meetings with the school and they said that it was because of me. And so we had his grandparents drop him off at school, occasionally my wife if she wasn’t working and so on. And it just didn’t get better. And he would be up trees and my dad, who is a bit rough around the edges. “I’m gonna have to get the chainsaw and cut the tree down.” And it was just really dramatic every morning.
And he went through a small phase of kind of being okay to go. And they were bribing him with Lego he could do in class and stuff. But it just wasn’t supportive of his neurodivergence.
They didn’t understand that. They just blamed it all on his trauma around my heart stuff. And yeah, it just continued to go on.
And everyone was telling us he’ll get used to it. Kids are like this, it’ll be fine. He’s just traumatized, you know, like it’s just that.
And yeah, the plans that they put in place were basically me not being involved. And you know, don’t make it nice for him to be at home, encourage him to be at school, all of those kinds of things. This is with a five-year-old who’s really traumatized.
One of the final days they were restraining him on the ground while I drove off with him, you know, yelling for me. Sorry, I didn’t think I’d get this upset again. I’ve talked about this. It’s all your empathetic faces.
And we had anxiety bands for him that were giving him bilateral stimulation, all this kind of thing. And nothing was helping.
And at that point as well with his learning, I could see some disparities. And I ended up finding out about giftedness and I had him assessed and it turned out he was a highly gifted visual-spatial learner. So then I kind of went down the path of, okay, things will be better if we get them on board with his visual-spatial giftedness.
And we talked about it with him because he knew he was different from the other kids. And so we went in with all these ideas and this 26-page report and the school just wasn’t able to support him in that. And they gave him a teacher’s aid, but it just wasn’t working.
He kept running away from school grounds out onto the main road and stuff. And it was just difficult. And I really wanted to homeschool him. And I knew homeschooling was going to be our future at that point. I’d always kind of seen it because of his food allergies, placements didn’t work out. Then I was like, yeah, I could be a homeschooling mom, but I did really like that local school.
I knew homeschooling was in our picture, but my wife and I thought that I was just having to deal with the trauma that I’d been through. And I was having panic attacks and so on. And we just thought that I didn’t have the mental capacity to homeschool him at that point.
I didn’t know about unschooling. I mean, I’d heard about it. And I thought that was like those really happy, slack parents. I followed one woman on a blog, and she lived in a house bus and the kids were constantly being picked up for not being looked after properly and stuff.
And I was like, yeah, no, that’s wow. And I have nothing against house buses, I think that’s a cool lifestyle. But a particular blog I was reading maybe wasn’t very representative.
So, I thought we were going to have to homeschool him, but I thought that I was going to need to get a whole lot better first. And it just got to the point where he had like four vomiting migraines in two weeks. I thought maybe he had some kind of brain problem going, like some kind of illness or something, some terrible thing.
And it was just stress. And it turned out that he was being really bullied at school. And he was telling us, but we didn’t believe that it was as bad as what he was saying and so on.
And it just came to a crunch when we had a second big COVID lockdown for about, well, it was big for us, it was about four months of complete lockdown. And he absolutely blossomed at home. He completely thrived. He was learning. He was much more interested in learning. He was so much less anxious. And we sat down and had a conversation. At that point, the new protocols had come in that we would have to drop him at the school gate and leave.
Parents just had to drop and go, you weren’t allowed into the school at all. And we just said, that’s not okay. It’s my mental health or his, we decided. And we were like, I can be more robust. I can sacrifice mine for his, we just couldn’t do that to him any longer. And that’s when we decided to homeschool. And I’d been trying to convince my wife for probably six months that we needed to do this.
And we finally had this conversation. I remember I got up off the couch and I walked over to the kitchen bench and I started doing dishes. And then I just had this complete wash over of me, like, how the hell am I going to homeschool him?
Like, oh, I don’t have the capacity and how am I going to teach him maths? You know, and all of those things that just washed over me, just like this whole whoosh. And I went and spoke to her, sent a message to a friend who is an unschooler, who’s a psychologist who lectures at a university. And she unschools her two similarly neurodivergent, at the time we thought, similarly gifted kids. They’re gifted as well. And she said to me, yeah, read this Carol Black essay and you need to unschool.
And so that was it. And I just autistically deep dived into that. And that was it. We were unschoolers from pretty much that day. We didn’t start homeschooling. We just went straight into unschooling.
Wow. Okay. I told you, see me in an hour. Yeah, so it’s a big, big story. But that’s how we got to unschooling.
ANNA: It’s amazing. I think so many parents can identify, just all those feelings and trying to make it work and trying to do what everybody’s saying you need to do. And oh my gosh, it’s just so intense. And then with your health pieces too. So yeah, just feeling all the feels of that experience for sure.
PAM: I was just going to say, so many feels. And I resonated with a few spots that were very similar. Like trying to work with the school, going in with the reports and trying to create this environment in which they’ll thrive and it just not being something that they’re able to do within the constraints that they are living with.
But that moment, I was actually writing about that recently. The moment when you realize all of a sudden, that there really are other options than this, this one thing. You were working so hard with the school and trying to make it at that welcoming and wonderful place. And then the bright side of a lockdown, I guess. But I think it’s kind of the baby steps too.
And I think for me, it was really helpful when we decided to ask the kids if they wanted to stay home, that it wasn’t like, okay, this is our decision that we’re doing forever. We’re going to try it out and see because when you give it that opportunity, oh my gosh. Like your description of how he was shining when he had the opportunity to just be at home and do those things. That is amazing. And that was your insight and moment to be like, okay, I need to make this work somehow.
So it was just fascinating. Thank you for sharing. It’s okay that it was long!
ERIKA: It’s just such a beautiful story. And you can really feel all of the, there’s so many elements to it. And I think for everyone who goes on this journey, there are so many contributing factors. So you’re feeling all the context of what’s going on for you, and then for your partner as well. And then for your child, everyone, all these different people with different needs. And then those relentless outside messages saying, it’s you. Don’t get involved in this, that’s such a pressure on parents.
MELISSA: Yeah, I hear that so much as well, in my community. People that are considering it and they’re like, but everyone says that if I remove my child from the system, where’s all the support going to be? They need an SLT, they need an OT, they need a behavioral person. And it’s like, actually, once you remove them from this environment, so many of those needs drop away.
PAM: Actually that is a wonderful lead into our next question. You mentioned this before the call, but your whole description just brings it to life, how valuable unschooling as a lifestyle can be for neurodivergent kids. So, I was hoping you would dive into that a little bit more.
MELISSA: Okay. Be careful with a little bit more. This is my soapbox.
ANNA: We’re here for it.
MELISSA: Yeah, I’m just so passionate about parents of neurodivergent kids understanding that unschooling is not just a valid, legitimate option, but it may very well be like a life-changing one for their family and for the trajectory of their children’s lives. Because I think that what they are able to gain at home, in a supportive environment, assuming that you can provide them with a supportive environment, is, I can’t put into words, and this is rare for me, how much that can turn around can be. I think about the potential life story of our kids, because my son was at school for one year and there were lockdowns during that time, and there were school holidays, and all of these things, vacations, whatever you guys call it, and he left there, telling us that he was stupid, and that he was worthless.
And he’d got all these messages from there. He hadn’t been told that by anyone, he had internalized all of that stuff. And he had really deeply internalized it. And it’s just because it wasn’t the right environment for him. Even though he had this paperwork telling him he was a gifted learner, he has an extremely asynchronous, really spiky profile.
So, he’s 97th percentile for some things, or 98th, and then 4th percentile for something else. And so all that was amplified at school was those 20 percentiles and the 4 percentiles, and none of the 97th or 98th genius were the things that were focused on. And all we do is celebrate the stuff that they’re good at. Our life’s work is to help them to learn how to regulate and to celebrate all the good things that they bring. And autistic people, which now he’s diagnosed, I’m diagnosed, and our daughter is yet to be diagnosed, have like a really increased risk of very, very poor mental health and a really high suicide rate and so on.
And for me, that is my bottom line is that I want my kids to be mentally well. And if they don’t have mental wellness, to have supports for that, and to be able to learn how to regulate themselves and keep themselves safe. And that is the most essential thing, I think.
And with neurodivergent kids who are in school, even the ones that are doing okay, there’s so much around just the sensory overload and the amount of capacity that they are using in a day just to get to the baseline that other kids start the day at, or spend the day at. The amount of executive function that they, you know, it was said we have no executive function, but actually, we’ve just used it all up, because our brain needs to utilize it just to do all the things that come naturally to other people. So, it’s not that we don’t have any, it’s just that we use it really, really quickly.
And when a person’s central nervous system is in fight or flight all the time, it’s hard for them to thrive in any way, let alone do the bare basics of learning. I think that at school, just simply the sensory overload, even for being in a room of 10 kids. Now I’m not going to put my kid in a room of 10 kids without knowing what we’re going to need to do in advance. We’re going to accommodate in this way. And afterwards, we’re going to have a buffer of one to two days, depending on whether he knew the kids or not, and whether it was extra loud or what they were doing.
I can calculate all of this into my dysregulation maths and be like, okay, this is what we need to place around this so that the rest of our week goes bearably. There’s no control over any of that in school, and just the amount of overstimulation and sensory overload, now that I know that I’m autistic, and I can look at how as an adult I function in certain ways, I can unpick and unpack all of that and just be like, wow, all of these aspects are so, so challenging for our kids. And then they’re there trying to learn? It just seems completely unrealistic, you know. They can’t learn when they’re in complete fight or flight.
I actually had an example with T?mana. They have parent-child interviews, I assume they do that all around the world where you go and you talk about the kids’ learning goals and what they’re doing well at and what they need to work on and so on. And we had one of those when T?mana, it wasn’t long before we finished, and we went in and you’re sitting on the little five-year-old tables with the little seats, and we’re all sitting around with our adult knees up. And there’s the teacher and my wife and I and T?mana, and T?mana was doing well.
But he’s ADHD as well as autistic. And so he was on his knees on the chair, on his elbows, and then his feet, doing all the things that a five-and-a-half-year-old does when they’re sitting in a boring meeting. And I was trying to focus and I was probably trying to people please and over-stressed about trying to convince her that yes, we’re supportive of that, but what about all these other things we want you to be doing? I was trying and feeling like such a pain in the butt parent because I was constantly riding them. And I was starting to get a bit stressed because he just wouldn’t sit still.
And I said, you know, T?mana, we’re just, you know, a few more minutes and then we’ll be ready to go. Like, just try and put your butt on the chair kind of thing. And the teacher looked at him and she said, oh, she said, we never have this. He never does this at school. And my wife and I just looked at each other in disbelief. And we’re like, really? And she’s like, no, no. I mean, you know, sometimes they lie on the floor because they’re allowed to do work lying down and stuff. But he doesn’t do this.
And we left that meeting and for all of the things that got said and discussed and stuff, the thing that my wife and I were just absolutely flabbergasted by was he doesn’t do that at school. Like, I don’t think that kid’s ever sat on a chair unless it’s like an ice cream or something in front of him. He didn’t eat ice cream for sensory issues until he was like six anyway. But, you know, unless it was something that he was hyper focused on.
And we just went, how can he have any creative flow if he is controlling his body so tightly in order to do what he thinks he needs to be doing? How can he excel? And we went, how can he do the bare minimum when you’re putting that much bodily muscle, let alone thought, et cetera, into controlling your whole self? We were just like, there’s just no way.
And that really stuck with me. So, I think that neurodivergent kids who are at home can have environments where they can learn. And that’s probably the key thing. You know, they can regulate. They can learn. They can socialize in ways that suit them. And they can just, they can just blossom because it can be so individualized. Yeah.
ANNA: It’s so interesting. That chair piece really sticks with me, too, because look at how hard he was trying to fit into that environment. And they’re saying he’s not doing this. He’s not doing that. All they’re seeing are the deficits and trying to fix these deficits, but missing the fact that, my gosh, he’s trying with everything that he has, you know, to fit into this environment he’s been put in. And I think all that’s missed. I think that is very, very powerful. =
MELISSA: And there was another day as well where he was more unmasked, shall we say, where we’d had to go to the city for a medical appointment for me, like a checkup, and the teachers didn’t know. And they rang us, the principal rang us and said that he had a substitute teacher, so that was yet another change in his routine. And he was on the table doing a strip show and had got down to his underwear.
And the principal was like, they were used to him running away, but she’s like, I’ve never seen him like this. And we were like, he’s probably quite dysregulated because, well, we didn’t even use the word dysregulated, but we said he’s probably really worried or anxious because we’re doing this. But yeah, these are the things that he was trying to keep down, and that day he couldn’t.
ERIKA: Yeah. My family is neurodivergent as well. And when I think back on just how overstimulating the school environment was for me as a child. The memories that I have of being a young child in school are all the people. I remember what they were all doing, and I was worried because if you do too much, you get in trouble.
There’s so much coming at you being in this room full of children all doing different things. And so to expect someone who’s paying attention to it at all to be able to then somehow tune in to what they’re supposed to be listening to and supposed to be doing. And then if you don’t do that, then you’re getting in trouble. It’s such an intense environment.
And I don’t think that a lot of adults recognize that or remember how it was. But when my son was very young, I was trying to picture him in that type of environment and how aware he was of what all the children were doing. And I was like, it’s just going to be too much for him.
MELISSA: Yeah, yeah. I remember when T?mana was at preschool and then one day he was inside and he was building with blocks. And his teacher said to me, oh, we were having a conversation, like an adult conversation, nothing bad, but they were talking about different countries they’d visited or something.
And they were sitting adjacent to him. But it was a day where there were other multiple children moving and talking and playing and stuff. And she said he was just sitting there doing his blocks and maybe with another kid as well. His cousin was there or something. And then he just started feeding into our conversation. And he’d fully been following it and he knew a whole lot of facts about one of the countries or something.
And she was just like, oh, kids aren’t normally that tuned into an adult conversation. We couldn’t talk about and we can’t talk about anything in our house. And we couldn’t from the time he was a baby, because he would come in and he just knew. He just was super hyper vigilant and aware and all of those things.
The other thing I think that makes it really hard for lots of our neurodivergent kids is T?mana does his learning by asking a lot of questions and info dumping. Those are his communication styles. And there’s no capacity for a teacher to deal with that.
I said to him the other day, he was asking about being at school and whether he might try to go back at some point. And I was like, yeah, one thing I noticed though about you, T?mana, is you like to ask a lot of questions. Do you know that when you’re in school, if there’s like maybe 15, 20, 25 kids in a class, what happens if every kid wants to ask one question at the start of a session? And he’s like, well, that wouldn’t work. And I was like, so how many questions do you reckon you’d get to ask a day? And he’s like, oh, never mind. Our kids learn in different ways and it just doesn’t work at school.
PAM: I do remember a very similar story. I was told by the teacher or the principal. Anyway, I guess my eldest was in class and the principal had come by to look in and could see that he was fiddling with stuff in his desk and playing, et cetera, et cetera.
So the principal called him out and started quizzing him and how he was supposed to be paying attention. And he answered every question about what the teacher was talking about. And yeah, it was probably the principal who told me this story because I talked to the principal a lot.
And he was just flabbergasted that he could know and understand what was going on all around him, even though he looked like he was doing something completely different. So yeah, the environment is just not a place where they can shine. And the other piece that bubbled up while you were talking, Melissa, is so often I think we can worry or wonder, could we even bring our child home to homeschool, unschool, et cetera? The child that we see in that environment and the challenges they’re having, oh, if they come home, I’m just going to have to deal with all those challenges. But no, it is such a different environment.
MELISSA: Yeah, I see that again and again.
PAM: Yeah, completely different child, right?
MELISSA: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I mean, we still get meltdowns and we still get dysregulation and stuff. But I think the thing as well that we’ve been talking about in the group a lot lately is there’s this spaciousness. There’s this time. And I did a member feature with one of our people yesterday, and she’s only been unschooling since the Unschooling Summit. So she did that and then she started unschooling.
And she was just talking about how, in her family in particular, so her kids are six and two, and just how long everything’s taking to come to reading or come to dressing themselves or what the different things are. And I said, I think that is the thing with our neurodivergent kids is that everything does can take longer.
I spend a lot of time in my family with my wife saying, it’s okay, it’s just not yet. We can have that experience with our kids later. It’s not the time yet that it would actually be beneficial for them or that they would enjoy it or that it would go the way you think it might or you wish it would.
And we do need to face that with some of our neurodivergent kids that, for some of them, they are disabled in some ways and that things are going to take longer for them to get to certain ways of doing things or being able to regulate themselves or helping you within that space and that time. And we can just kind of lean into the season being longer and that they may not sleep any better than they did when they were babies until they’re 10 and that we have this kind of spaciousness that we can give them time.
We talked the other day, I think maybe it was with one of the Sunday Sessions, I’m not sure, or a Zoom I did recently. We talked about surrender and that surrendering is just such an important part of being a parent and particularly with some of this process. Yeah, that all of those kinds of aspects are really important because things might take longer and we don’t need to rush things.
And I think it was something that I think it was a quote I wrote down from you, Pam, once you guys were doing a talk and you were saying that unschooling learning is internalized and not memorized or something along those lines. And it’s like, yeah, we don’t want our kids to learn stuff by rote because they have to, whether it’s about the need to wash themselves or mathematics or whatever it is. We need them to come to that slowly in this expanding and contraction of their capacity and of their growth and a thing so that it’s really rooted in all aspects of themselves and their learning about themselves and so on. And we have the time for that. It can be hard as parents.
ANNA: We also have neurodiversity here as well. And I think what time allowed what was to see the gifts. I think when you’re in that tightened timeline thinking we have to hit this milestone, we have to do this thing. There’s just only the deficit focus. That’s why it happens that way at school.
But I think unschooling really gives us that chance to see all the gifts. And so those timelines really have no value or meaning, because it’s just we get there when we get there. But oh, my gosh, there’s so much beauty along the way that it doesn’t feel like we’re missing anything. So I really love that.
I’m going to change gears just a tiny bit for this next question, kind of bringing it back to us as parents. I recently had a little aha moment myself about capacity and understanding if I’m operating within my capacity, I’m able to hold things more lightly, and I’m able to be present and not have not take things so personally, not kind of crash and burn when things go awry.
And I mean, it seems really obvious when I say it out loud. But there was just an aha moment for me, because I think I do push beyond my capacity a lot. And I’m like, oh, okay, I need to be aware of this because it’s impacting the way I’m showing up and the way that I want to show up.
And so I know that you talk a lot about the importance of building capacity for ourselves. And so, I would just love to hear more about your experience with that, ideas you have around that, and just what your journey has been around that piece.
MELISSA: Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I think especially for me, because it came into it in quite a deficit place, I didn’t have a lot of personal capacity. And now I know that as well as being a kind of PTSD, I was probably in autistic burnout from, I mean, my goodness, just being in a heart ward five weeks is kind of rather stimulating, because people are dying around you and you’re having CPR and stuff. So, I came into this whole season, pretty depleted.
And I really needed to be the one that was building my own capacity. And also, once we were about three or four months in, and things were starting to go quite fine and quite lovely. And we’d kind of done nothing schooling wise.
And then we started to try and do some arts and crafts with our daughter. And so that our son was starting to sniff around that and we were starting to just kind of gently ease into doing things and doing a few more trips out and so on as his capacity grew. And then my wife had a massive medical situation as well, and had to have massive surgery and nearly died as well.
So massive PTSD for the kids, bringing all that up again, and for me, and it was really rough. And so, capacity in our family has been super, super limited. And my wife now lives with an ongoing medical condition. I have to have a lot of capacity. And now I’m also running a business. And so, I’m trying to unschool and I do most of the outings for our family and try to run Weave and the Summit as well.
So, there’s a lot to be said for the pressures that are around you and kind of rising to the occasion, but that can only go on for so long. And so for me, what I did was I tried lots of different modalities to support myself and things like EMDR. And I think that dealing with your past trauma and your past history and so on is a really important thing to do. So I did a whole lot of work for me on this more recent trauma with EMDR and EFT tapping and different things to help my nervous system. And we see a chiropractor and so on. And all of those things are to support our central nervous system. But then I started doing breath work.
And for me, as an autistic ADHD person, meditation was very difficult for me to grasp. But breath work, which really, and it’s not like the Wim Hof style, it’s a polyvagal central nervous system relaxing breath work and it really is just breathing and you might hold like a yoga pose of some kind. But yeah, that has been very, very supportive for me in terms of my capacity. And so, I do lots of online programs where I’m doing breath work with other mostly mums. And that I’ve found has been extremely helpful for my capacity.
And then when I started doing Weave, which is the community that I have, I noticed that so many of us were coming in crisis and that we were discovering that we had neurodivergent kids. Most of us didn’t know that we had neurodivergent kids until they burnt out in school. So the kids were in school refusal. They were coming home because there was no other option. And we were then realizing that we needed to unschool, not just homeschool. And unschooling, you guys all know this, but I think it’s a lot harder than homeschooling. There’s no curriculum.
You can’t just lock them in a curriculum and be like, do that, tick the boxes, red pen out. I don’t know if people use red pens, but you know. And that’s your schoolwork done for the day.
Unschooling is very, very intensive on parents because we actually all really want it to work. And we have all of this weight on ourselves to begin with, especially of like, we are holding this and we are taking this new path and it is on us. And lots of the people that I know don’t have fully supportive, committed partners to the process.
It’s like, okay, if that’s what you want to do, you’re responsible for the reading and the carrying out and the kind of reporting back to me if it’s working or soothing the other partner’s fears.
And you’re going to be holding a whole lot. Often the families that I work with, just like us, are arriving into unschooling in a state of crisis. We’re not starting out in a nice, we’ve made a philosophical decision to unschool and we’ve known that since our children were small and we kind of ease our way into it. We just drop in, trial by fire. It’s all happening at once. And you’ve also got kids that are burnt out and in school refusal and you are at the scraping the barrel levels of your own capacity.
And you’ve got a kid at home who is there 24 hours a day. Lots of our kids don’t sleep. We really, really need to build our capacity. It’s just essential. And also a lot of us are starting to realize in the process of having our kids diagnosed that we are neurodivergent too. And I think if we don’t build our capacity as neurodivergent parents of neurodivergent kids, if that’s your picture, then it’s going to be very difficult. It’s going to be very, very difficult to survive, let alone thrive, you know?
And so I think that we need to get to a point where we can survive and then we need to be working towards thriving. And what I’ve done is I’ve tried out lots of different modalities because everything’s going to be different for what works for different people and what works for different seasons.
And I think for those of us that are unschooling, you have to have things that you can do in these little pockets of time that you have. And you need to find ways to kind of fill your bucket or your whatever you want to call it, your basket, in these tiny moments. And so for me, it’s things like purposely going and finding glimmers and noticing the moment that I take a sip of hot tea because it might be the only one that’s hot. We kind of talk about having a hot cup of tea is like, ahh! but the reality is maybe only you get the first few sips. Make sure you enjoy them, notice it, feel into that. Bank all of these small moments, so that when you do need to dig deep, because there will be multiple times probably through every day where you need to be holding something external from yourself, that you have some capacity.
So, we use havening. I have a havening practitioner that comes into Weave and we do this, we do, that sounds really silly, we do this. Havening is like a whole movement that’s kind of continuing on from EFT, and it’s very good at bringing the nervous system back into alignment. And as an autistic ADHD person, havening practices are very accessible.
Finding a moment to breathe is often very, very inaccessible. So I find that things for me that are very physical, like feeling my toes as opposed to trying to do something like a 10 minute meditation. If my son is trying to get on the roof and I’m the person responsible for him not getting on the roof during a meltdown, I can do some havening or feel my toes. And I don’t have the time for anything else.
So I think that really focusing on spending some time every day, doing one minute of havening to get that muscle memory in your body so that when you need it, you can grab it. And I find that the more that I put in these small practices, these small accessible practices, the more that I am able to have the capacity to feel like there is a well of all that I’m connected to and the earth and all, everything that I’m trying to hold, because otherwise I’m constantly in my head or beyond it. And I don’t feel in my body a lot. So I have to be very determined that I need to have these practices in my life because it’s very easy to let them go.
And ADHD, I love something and then I forget about it. I need to kind of keep coming back to things.
ERIKA: That’s very relatable. I love the idea of practicing them over and over so that they almost come as second nature when you’re in the more difficult moments.
Yeah. I really love that.
MELISSA: It’s like anchoring.
ERIKA: And I was just thinking in some moments when we’re at low capacity, I’ve noticed a pattern of like, we tend to want to add even more things or notice even more things that are missing.
And so, for me, that’s one of the things I noticed. When I’m having a hard time things in my mind get worse and more intense rather than me trying to drop things. And so, I think that the physical practices would help a lot with just kind of coming back to center, but then also just remembering to let things go that I don’t need to deal with in this moment. Because there’s always plenty to deal with in that present moment.
MELISSA: Yeah. And I think for me and for lots of people, the overwhelm cripples you. And this is a small thing I can do to start to move.
PAM: That was one of the big things that bubbled up for me too, how valuable it can be to make it almost second nature by practicing, giving ourselves a space in those less overwhelming moments so that we have it in our back pocket. Because it’s so easy to freeze and just forget all the tools that we have when we are in a challenging moment, so keeping them top of mind rather than saying, oh things are going well, I don’t need these tools right now. Then we don’t have access to them when we need them.
MELISSA: Yeah, yeah, we do havening once a month and during that time of practice it’s, oh I come out of there feeling like light as a feather. But what I was finding was that when I was feeling my dysregulation rising in a moment with my child when I needed to stay calm because their dysregulation was rising or going off, I wouldn’t remember to do it. And so yeah, so we did a thing in the group where we did one minute of havening every morning for 14 days and we all knew we could access one minute and now it’s second nature. So yeah, anchoring in and finding things that are accessible that actually work for us and for other people it might be like a different move or it might be tapping or something, but yeah, finding some, just some little thing that works for you. And for some people it is breathing and things, but for me it’s not always the easiest thing. It feels very forced to control my breath.
ERIKA: Right, yeah, I love that people are different so you have to find what works for you. So I just wanted to see if you wanted to share anything additional. Your group sounds amazing, Weave ND, and just your experience of creating that group and weaving unschooling together with running your businesses.
MELISSA: Yeah, yeah. Weave came about, when we were in that very stuck season when my wife Doria was very unwell as well and we were unschooling and I jumped into a really fantastic online community for unschoolers and we had these Zooms and they were fantastic, but what I was finding was that it made me feel a little more isolated some of them, because if we were talking about socializing of our kids or events or things, the advice that everyone else was sharing on the experiences was so different from ours because my son was not able to engage in those things. And so I ended up asking if I could run a Zoom for neurodivergent parents just to connect and talk within this other group.
And we had wonderful conversations and we started doing that monthly and for about two hours we’d have these meandering conversations that people could come in and get warmed up and then spill and not record it and so on. And then that group decided that they weren’t going to run as a community anymore and went off and did different things. And so I decided and they encouraged me to take it into Facebook and so I did that and then I ran that for two years from the time that I was doing it within the group to deciding that I needed to have employment and my wife couldn’t work.
And so the group, I was saying I was either going to have to close it down or start charging and so we moved into a paid membership community. And yeah, it’s fantastic and it’s a way that I can be at home with my kids and I run it mostly from home. I’m in a hired motel today for the internet.
I use the local motel to have fast speed internet because I’ve ended up doing things like the unschooling summit and I needed to be able to interview people and stuff that the internet wasn’t going to lag and the children weren’t going to come in with chickens and interrupt if I was interviewing some famous person like Pam Laricchia or whoever it was.
But yeah, it’s been an amazing journey and with that journey I worked out that instead of just coming together and talking about our woes, which was a lot of what we were doing but that was becoming quite heavy, was that the key thing that I needed to focus on was this capacity building, because it was the piece that we were all really struggling with and I think also the kind of compassion part. A lot of us are not very good at being compassionate to ourselves in a very difficult circumstance that we’re living in at points of our journey. It can be really difficult and very isolated and so finding ways for us to like connect and be compassionate and then kind of build this capacity was so important.
And so, part of that was that I spoke to Esther Jones about coming in and doing a mindfulness session for us and that just blossomed into a really amazing relationship which has been really cool and we decided to start working together more last September and then one of us just in one of the first emails we had backwards and forwards because she’d been in my community and been doing like you know mindfulness and so on but one of us said and I can’t remember which one of us it was, was like maybe we should do a summit. That would be cool.
And so I was really passionate about more people hearing about unschooling with the neurodivergent flavor and she’s of course, an amazing unschooling person, figure and so we thought we might do like a one or two day summit and maybe invite sort of five or six speakers, weren’t sure, eight maybe and maybe a thousand people might come if we were lucky and we kind of both went nuts, hard out.
She’s in the UK, I’m in New Zealand so one of us would be waking up full of enthusiasm and vim and vigor and the other person would be suggestible and tired and would agree to anything and so it just was this magic equation of alchemy of,I’ve had this idea overnight and I think we should this and the other one would be like okay look if you’re going to take care of that part it sounds fine with me go for it, invite them or do this or whatever.
So I think it honestly was the fact that one of us would be fresh fueled up and one of us would be working on fumes and so we just kind of kept going but yeah it ended up amazing and it was such a joy for us to work together and to create the Summit. So that’s been pretty special and it has had a really strong neurodivergent flavor. It’s been really supportive for our ND families because so many of them are unschooling but yeah really, really broad, interesting thing to work on. So, that’s been pretty special.
ANNA: And so it will be happening again in the coming year? What are the plans?
MELISSA: Yeah, we’re working on it now so we’re doing early morning or late night Zooms again. It’ll be happening in the last weeks of March. I can’t think of a date right now so yeah of next year, same thing three days all for free online and lots of amazing speakers. I’m sure you guys will get invited to be on panels and speak and so on so yeah we’ve got some different ideas this year, ways of doing things.
So, yeah, we’re really keen to have like the diversity of unschoolers reflected which was one of our key things last year and I really loved that people were brave enough to say yes to these two people that well they certainly didn’t know me, they do now but yeah, it’s been pretty amazing and really lovely for my community as well because I’ve had some wonderful people come in and speak within the community now that I know more people and I don’t need to be so shy to ask people to come in and talk and so on.
PAM: I really enjoy participating in it as well but also your piece of finding stuff that you can do for the most part within your home life. You can do it from home mostly, you can like and the people like in your community, they understand obviously the circumstances of your family life as well, so you can have chickens come in and kids.
MELISSA: Yeah, exactly and like yeah, I think that is something I did want to talk about, it’s encouraging people to be entrepreneurial. I think unschoolers often are very entrepreneurial, it’s a very common kind of thing and partly it’s probably out of desperation because we need to make money and get creative about how we’re going to do it. But there is that real spark of not needing to live by the rules and not needing to do things the same way and not wanting to work for a boss and so on. And I do most of my stuff from the kitchen bench or a chair in my bedroom and the kids come in and out and I do have a caravan in the garden but it’s not any less kid infested.
So, I come here to do the recordings because of the internet quality but you can do these things from the kitchen bench with your kid across from you and needing to get up and make snacks and it all just happens and when you find the thing that you’re passionate about, just like our kids, you can just focus on that and they can see.
My son is so invested, drives him nuts, he doesn’t want me on the laptop and he gets very dysregulated part of the time as well but he’s so proud. And anywhere we go out, he’s like, oh yeah, my mama has an online business and she does this summit and she does that and so he tells everyone, oh we’re unschoolers and my mum is an advocate.
And our kids seeing us do something and seeing us mess it up or fail or have a bad day or send the wrong email or whatever. It’s all such vital learning and that was something I think I got from your podcast as well, Pam, I binged yours, and Esther’s, Stark Raving Dad, I was in that really stuck season where my wife was very unwell and my child was in crisis and was having constant meltdowns and stuff because of like the PTSD and we were getting the autism diagnosis and stuff, I just went, I need to work on me. I need to feel like I’m not stuck so I’m just going to educate myself in every way, shape and form about unschooling and then about neurodivergence and the crossover.
And hearing all of your different interviews with different people and all of the different ways that unschooling has gone but part of it for me because I’ve been an entrepreneur in the past was you talking about, you know, you get to actually indulge in your interests as an unschooler because you kind of have to because you need to model that for your kids and you need to not go crazy and I heard stories over and over of people saying, I just do my thing and my kids are around. And that was really motivational for me. It was like, yeah, I could just do my thing and the kids could be around.
It’s hard, and I’m often working till 11 or later at night. With the Summit, we’re up till 1 many, many times and you just fit it in around and you’re really tired and you have bloodshot eyes and you have bags under your eyes but it is possible. I hear other people say, oh no, you need to dedicate at least one day out a week where you go and you do this and whatever and it’s like sometimes it’s just not the reality and if you’re going to wait for that, you’ll never start these things. You’ve just got to dive in, just like we tell our kids, I suppose, if we sit around waiting until everything’s perfect, we’re never gonna get anywhere.
ANNA: That conventional wisdom, right? If you’re going to do a business, you do x, y, z, do the checkbox, but really there are so many ways. And if we can make it fit for our life, that keeps our enthusiasm going, that makes it work for our families and we’re much more likely to then be successful at it. So, yeah, I think that’s always a great reminder.
MELISSA: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it’s definitely a juggling act and I have to be careful not to burn out because of my autistic hyperfocus but, I love that.
PAM: Yeah.I think that piece that you mentioned is just beautiful. Because then you’re thinking about being an entrepreneur and you go and you start looking and you want to learn and it is so much about, do x, y, z, and make sure you tell everybody that when your door is closed, you don’t interrupt me. All these “tips” for working from home, etc.
But what we learn through unschooling, is that we can question conventions, right? So, we can do things differently and not just for the sake of it, but because it works better. It actually works better for us. It keeps our relationships. It keeps our connections.
Yes, we’re up and down and doing this thing and that thing. And maybe it feels like juggling a few things. But you know what? Even the challenge of juggling a few things, in my experience, for my brain, just works better than trying to spend all my energy to get those two hours alone to focus. Even now, when my kids are adults, it’s just how my brain works. And valuing that over trying to make myself conform.
And then your children seeing you do it, even my adult children seeing me play around and doing this thing and trying this thing, etc. It’s just our lives all weaving together, which just feels so much better than trying to put boundaries and separations between it all.
MELISSA: And my kid’s really invested. He comes in and he checks my phone, because when payments come through, it’s updated to my bank on my app. And so he’s like, monitoring there. And he’s like, now I’ve heard this thing on a podcast, where there’s this thing that you can get, this piece of tech. He comes in and he tries to advise and he’s really invested.
And I love that. He’s thinking about it. He’s won a Lego competition recently, because Lego is his special interest. And he’s phenomenal at it. And it was with a real estate agent. So, now he’s engaged his own real estate agent. And so, he keeps telling people, do you know many 10-year-olds with a real estate agent? He hasn’t earned a dime yet, but he’s like, when I make my millions on these particular business plans, because he’s going to be an entrepreneur, then he’s going to have her looking for a piece of land in advance. And it’s just, I don’t know, I love that he has really big dreams. And because he can see me starting something from scratch and growing a thing, he’s learning all of that stuff. And he’s really invested.
And my daughter as well, but she’s more independent whereas he’s more up in my business. She’s out in the garden and doing her own thing. Yeah.
ERIKA: So I just love all the space. Everyone can be doing the things that work so well for them. And we’re all figuring it out. I feel like that’s something so valuable about the unschooling journey is just like, we are all getting to figure out what works well for us and getting to follow our interests. And it’s just a lot of fun.
So, this has been so much fun, Melissa, thank you so much for joining us. We hope that you all enjoyed our conversation and maybe had an aha moment or picked up some ideas to consider on your own unschooling journey. And if you enjoy these kinds of conversations, I think you would love the Living Joyfully Network.
It’s an amazing group of people having thoughtful conversations about all the things we encounter in our unschooling lives. And you can also check out our new substack at whenschoolisn’tworking.substack.com. And the Network is at at the top of the page at livingjoyfully.ca. So thank you so much for listening. And we will see you next time.
PAM: Thanks so much, Melissa! We’ll have all your links there in the show notes as well. Bye!
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For this week’s episode, we’re sharing the next Foundations episode of the Living Joyfully Podcast with Pam and Anna, Every Moment is a Choice.
It’s common in our culture to look at our lives in terms of “have-tos,” but staying in that space takes away our agency and our joy. By getting curious about our have-tos, we can figure out what is really important to us and play with ways to make the things we do more enjoyable. And in difficult moments, when it really feels like terrible things are happening to us, we still have the choice of how to respond, what story we tell about our situation, and what energy we bring to it. Realizing how much choice we have can be so empowering!
We hope today’s episode sparks some fun insights for you!
Listen to our conversation on YouTube.
THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODEWe invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network, a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents. It’s a non-judgmental space where you can steep in these unconventional ideas around parenting, relationships, and learning, and explore what they might look like day-to-day in your uniquely wonderful family. We offer a free month trial so you can see if it’s a good fit for you. Click here to join us.
Sign up to our mailing list on Substack to receive our email newsletters as well as new articles about learning, parenting, and so much more!
Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about exploring unschooling and navigating relationships.
EPISODE QUESTIONSDo you find yourself saying “I have to” a lot? Can you find any patterns around when you see it happening more frequently?How does it feel to think about having choices in each moment?What helps you find your center when moving through a challenge?What choices do you see around the stories you are currently telling about your life?TRANSCRIPTANNA: Hi, and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast! We’re happy you’re here and interested in exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.
In today’s episode, we’re going to talk about choice. I love talking about and grounding ourselves in choice, because life is filled with choices from the mundane to the epic. And for the most part, it’s an invisible process. We’re making decisions on the fly throughout the day. Other decisions are made with a lot of deliberation and forethought and take a lot of time, but the ability to choose is something that empowers us. The knowledge that, no matter what, we have a choice.
PAM: Right, and that is so surprisingly easy to forget in the moment. I can find myself moving through parts of my day almost by rote, and sometimes that means I’m in the flow of things, feeling good and accomplishing things I want and choose to do. And other times things start to rub.
When I start hearing myself say, “Oh, I have to do this,” that feeling that I don’t have a choice is a good clue that I’m probably feeling a bit overstretched or under-resourced, and it’s a great clue to step back, take a breath, and just take a moment to look around a bit.
It’s so easy to fall into the “I have to” trap, because it is used so much in our culture. The phrase “I have to,” or, “You have to,” has become so commonplace that we’ve mostly stopped questioning it altogether. It just seeps into our everyday language. We say we have to go to the store, we have to brush our teeth, we have to go to bed, and so many more things. And soon, we start to believe that we have to do all the things, that we don’t have a choice, that we are, in fact, prisoners to a long list of have to’s.
And not only that, when we come to feel that we don’t have choices and buy into this whole “have to” ethos, it’s usually not long before we start to feel pulled to impose them on others. “This has to be done and you have to help,” which then can lead to judging others around the things we think they have to do. Like, “Why aren’t they doing this thing I don’t want to do, but have to do?” It is so disempowering and disconnecting.
So, taking a moment to look at a situation, any situation, even small everyday ones, and noticing that choices actually exist helps us let go of that overwhelming feeling of being trapped in our days. It reminds us that we have agency. We can use phrases like, “I have to,” or, “You have to,” as red flags, signs that it’s a good time to step back and see where we’re feeling pinched, where we’re feeling controlled, because definitely those things can sneak up on us bit by bit.
And then, we can dig deeper to identify our underlying needs, find the choices in the soil of the have to’s and shift things up to meet our needs in ways that don’t include controlling others or even using control tactics on ourselves. Realizing that I always have choices has been such a freeing and empowering mindset shift for me. It’s just been amazing.
ANNA: Oh my gosh. For me, too. It’s been such a critical part. The shift from feeling like life is happening to me, to understanding my agency and navigating this thing called life. It’s funny, I have a good friend whose husband does not buy into this idea at all. So, he believes, “There aren’t always choices, Anna,” but I find it so interesting.
And one of the examples he used was, “Well, we have to do the animal chores in the morning.” So, they have a small farm, donkeys, goats, chickens. And here’s the thing. They don’t have to do that. They could choose to re-home the animals. They could skip the morning chores or do them later. I know the lap of luxury these animals live in and they would be just fine. They could also hire someone to do the chores for them.
There’s always a choice and with each choice, we hone in on our priorities. They don’t want to re-home the animals. They love them. They love bringing the special treats in the morning and moving the donkeys to the track to watch them play and run. They don’t have to do those things. They want to. And maybe they decide it’s not worth the money to pay someone else, or in that choice, they realize that they actually enjoy it and might miss it and don’t want someone else doing it for them.
And so, then it’s like, okay, so if we’re feeling pinched about time, in that exploration, they might find they’d rather free up time in another way, adjusting something they don’t enjoy as much. What a different feeling than to feel we’re held hostage by an obligation. And maybe it’s just semantics and energy, but I really think it’s worth examining our language about any of these have to’s and deciding if that language is serving us.
Is it helping us find joy? Is it helping us enjoy the things around us? Could examining it as a choice help us understand what we actually want to do and how we want to spend our time and resources?
PAM: Yes. I think what can happen over time is that we make a choice and then it’s new and exciting.
We relish it. It’s fun. And then, over time, we shortcut our language down to, “I have to.”
For me, it feels like as the activity becomes more commonplace in my days, “Every morning I’ve got to go take care of the animals,” my internal language becomes more efficient. “I have to take out the animals, I have to take the dogs out,” all the all the things. “I have to go grocery shopping, I have to clean the bathrooms.”
And I think the word obligation is a great way to describe that feeling and the growing weight of it. And I think we can naturally start to resist that obligation and maybe even start to resent it. So, if our internal “have to” language doesn’t catch our attention, eventually that growing weight of obligation or resentment definitely might. So, time to dig in and see what’s in there. What’s the rub?
And what’s so interesting is so often digging in helped me remember my why. So, you had that wonderful example about the animals. I’m going to take a quick moment to look at cleaning bathrooms, because it is a very basic example. But to give you an idea of ways to dig into those festering feelings.
So, I can remind myself that I enjoy the feeling of walking into a clean bathroom. If I realize that’s even feeling a bit stale for me, I can start there. So, maybe I choose to spruce up the bathroom a bit, bringing in a plant or two, or some art for the walls. Maybe I print out an inspirational quote or two that makes me smile, or a couple of pictures that make me laugh and I tape them to the mirror. How can I more enjoy walking into this mostly utilitarian room?
I find that is such a fun way to look at things. It’s like, cleaning the bathroom, what do you mean decorating it or whatever? But that is a wonderful aspect to look at, too.
I can also contemplate the cleaning schedule that I’m holding myself to. There are no bathroom police that are going to come and arrest me if I don’t stick to it. So, what if I change that up, extending the period between deep cleans? How does that feel? I can try it out and see. That’s something you can always play with and is likely to change over time, depending as the number of people rise and fall.
So, just because we’ve done it weekly for years doesn’t mean it has to be weekly forever more. That frequency may well change over the seasons of our lives.
And we can look at the how. How can I make it easier for me to slip into cleaning? Can I keep the cleaning supplies in the bathroom ready to grab quickly? That may mean having more supplies up front, but they each last longer, because they’re only being used in one bathroom. So, it works itself out. Can I make the process itself more enjoyable? I often put on my headphones and listen to podcasts or sometimes upbeat music to help my body get moving. Or we could also choose to pay for cleaning service if that’s an option. There are just so many possibilities.
So, after taking some time to dig in and discover what’s really rubbing for me, so often, I still do the thing. I clean the bathrooms. But my internal language is much different now, because I remembered how much choice and agency I have. It may not be the most fun I’ll have all day, but I remember why I want to do it and I’ve made the process more pleasurable, particularly the bits of the process that were rubbing me the wrong way. My internal language is lighter. Maybe even, “I want to clean the bathrooms today,” rather than that obligatory weight of, “I have to.”
It’s so fascinating to see that we can find choice even in the most mundane bits and pieces of life.
ANNA: And just how different it feels when we do. I mean, those choices all along the way. And I think the money piece that I talked about is a really interesting way to check in. So, do I want to pay somebody to do this? Does it have that value or is it not that big of a deal? Is my time more valuable there?
It’s playing with it, asking questions that we talk so much about. It just opens up instead of getting stuck in the weight of the have to’s. So, yeah, I love that, because again, I just really think it helps us hone in on our priorities and get back to that why, like you said, and then we know, okay, I got these animals for a reason and I like having a clean bathroom and that’s why I’m doing it for me. Whatever those things are, getting back to that why.
PAM: Yeah. And I love that priority piece. That was episode number one, because that is so foundational, playing around with our priorities and the time that we’ve got, the things that we want to do. We can always bring it back there to realize that we have choices with all the things that we think are on our plate.
ANNA: Yes. And it just really changes things. But I do want to talk about times when it feels like there really is no choice, that life has happened to us. There’s a tragedy, a death, a loss of something that’s out of our control, because that’s going to happen to all of us. It’s certainly happened to me and realizing I still had the choice of how I react made all the difference in moving through those difficult events. No, I couldn’t change the fact that the job was lost or the injury happened, but I could decide how I was going to let that impact my mood, how I was feeling, and how I wanted to move through the world.
So, for me, that helped me to put things into perspective and to feel again, that life wasn’t just happening to me. I’ve had some pretty difficult things happen to me over the years. We all have, but the times I’m able to ground back into who I want to be, how I want to learn from what’s happening around me, and how I want to find joy, even in the darkest moments, those were the times that I moved through the events with the most ease. It’s not easy necessarily, but with more ease than when I was fighting and bucking against the reality of what was happening.
And, for me, gratitude was a big part of that. Finding those little spots of gratitude is a choice, and I found that I could find them even in the darkest of days. And with that choice, that first move towards looking for the tiny points of light, the shifts would start and new ways forward would present themselves.
PAM: Yes, definitely. Things happen in our lives that are out of our control. Times where we find ourselves just reacting to things. It can feel like our life has come to a standstill with this big thing. And for a time, that can definitely be helpful, because it needs immediate attention, right? Yet moving through these challenging events often takes time and staying stuck in that emergency mode can have its consequences.
So, for me, once the initial shock and overwhelm began to ease a bit, I found it helpful to gently remind myself to come back to the present whenever I noticed myself getting stuck in my head with my swirling thoughts. Because in the present, I slowly began to notice those bits and pieces of life that are happening around me. Those spots of gratitude, as you mentioned, Anna, even small ones, like how the light comes through the window, a moment of connection with my child that makes me smile. Continuing to bring myself to the present, soon I was open enough to start to see more possibilities, new ways forward that I couldn’t see when I was like stuck in tunnel vision. I began to see choices.
ANNA: Yes. And that’s what it’s all about, finding our way to just seeing the choice in the moments. And so, this leads to another area where our choices influence our perspective. And it’s an area where we often give away our powers. And it’s, we tell our own stories. We’re the creators, we’re the writers, we’re the orators of these stories of our lives.
And digging into stories is so important to us that we’re going to do an entire episode on it in a couple weeks, but I think it’s worth talking about it right now in this context of choice and seeing how it’s playing out in our days, because our stories have a way of defining us for ourselves and for others. For ourselves, they become this sort of self-talk. If that talk is negative and full of worry and distress, then we can become that. If that talk is positive and full of joy and gratitude, then we become that. We start to embody it.
For others, it colors the way they see us. They trust that our story is our truth. And if that truth is steeped in frustration and anger, then we can attract the frustrated and angry, because it’s that whole misery loved company thing. And if that truth is infused with joy and gratitude, we tend to attract the people that are looking for joy and gratitude. And I’ve found that, for me, where I put my energy is the areas that I’m growing. And so, I just want to be really aware of that. And so, again, it just boils down to this choice. How do we want to spend our energy and what do we want to attract with it?
PAM: Yeah. The stories we tell ourselves and those around us have such a big impact on us. So, I am really looking forward to diving into that idea more deeply in a couple of weeks. But it is also a great lens to consider when we’re thinking about choice, because if the story we’re telling ourselves and the people around us is that we don’t have a choice, that we have to do X, Y, Z, that’s most likely going to be the one we all run with. So often, we treat our stories as facts. “This is the situation. Now where do we go from here?” And that’s where people join us.
So, if our story is grounded in frustration and full of have to’s, that’s where they join us, often sharing their frustrations and just generally tossing around in the muck with us. Back to that misery loves company. But if our story is steeped in choice and possibilities, that’s where they’ll jump in with us. Oh, that is a big change. Best of luck with that. Have you considered this? They’re just generally more supportive and helpful. And both stories can absolutely be true to the facts. But we get to choose which one we tell ourselves and others, which one feels better to us in the moment. And that is not a trick question. Sometimes what feels better is to vent, right?
But it is absolutely helpful to remember that it’s a choice and we don’t need to stick to that version of our story forever.
ANNA: Oh my gosh, yes. We can change a story when it stops serving us. That’s another big revelation. Like, “Oh, this story I’ve been hanging onto, I can change it up.” So, lots to consider there.
So, we’re going to leave you with a few questions to ponder.
First, do you find yourself saying, “I have to,” a lot? Really listen, because actually we don’t even always notice it.
PAM: That’s so true.
ANNA: Tune in. Can you find any patterns around when you see it happening more frequently? And kind of like you talked about, Pam, it tends to be those under-resourced moments, where we kind of start clicking off the have to’s and the giant list and all the things.
How does it feel to think about having choices in each moment?
PAM: So, I think that’ll be a big one. You don’t even have to like move forward with it, but just take a moment to think, “Oh, what if I had a choice?” If you can’t see a choice yet. But it could even just be how does it feel to think about, “Oh, what if there were choices?” And that I think can be the first little baby step.
ANNA: I’m so curious how my friend’s husband’s going to think about some of this stuff, because he listens to the podcast. And so, what does it feel like to just think, but what if you did have a choice? What if you let go of that story that you don’t?
So, another thing is, what helps you find your center when you’re moving through a challenge? I think that can just be really helpful, because we’re going to keep getting challenge. So, helping people understand what helps us move through that, what helps it feel a bit more with ease, what helps us find that gratitude, whatever it is that feels good.
And lastly, what choices do you see around the stories you are currently telling about your life? Yeah, that’s going to be good. Because we’re always telling stories. If you’re sitting there listening, going, “I don’t know if I have stories,” no, you do. You have stories. And let’s look at them like, because these can be things we are carrying with us for a long time. And again, check back in a couple weeks when we really dig into stories as well.
So, just thinking about this idea of choice, I think is just interesting. Play with it. How does it feel? What feels better? How does it work? So, yeah, I think it’s going to be fun.
PAM: Yes, I think so, too. And that stories one, too. As you said, if you don’t think you’re telling stories, I think just take a pull back and instead of choices around the stories you’re telling yourself, think about, what stories am I telling myself? Just start to look through the lens of story and see how that feels. See what you see. I think it’ll be so interesting to dive into.
ANNA: Thank you so much for listening, and we will see you next time. Bye-bye.
PAM: Bye.
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