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What if you could transform your trauma into a source of hope and healing? A physician in the middle of a pandemic, who survived the earthquakes in Nepal, Dr. Christy Gibson realized the mounting rates of trauma showing up, but not being recognized. Her mess became her message when she launched the "TikTok Trauma Doc” and authored the "The Modern Trauma Toolkit", a book that is a must at your bedside. During this conversation, Christy shares profound insights on hope in trauma recovery and the hidden emotional toll on healthcare professionals. Discover the distinction between PTSD and normal responses to extraordinary situations. Explore innovative therapies like Havening and Tapping. Plus, the transformative power of community, cultural sensitivity, and the benefits of integrating Western medicine with functional approaches.
CHAPTERS/KEY MOMENTS
00:00 Intro
05:27 Healing Through Havening Techniques
10:29 Trauma Healing
14:46 Community Empowerment After Disaster
19:48 Empowerment Through Self-Discovery
25:37 Exploring Integrative Trauma Healing Methods
26:57 The Role of Antidepressants and Psychedelics
38:31 Sharing Healing Skills on TikTok
42:45 Connecting Through Healing and Collaboration
43:00 Rapid Fire Game
45:16 The Modern Trauma Toolkit
47:00 Dr. Christy Gibson takeaway
48:00 Hilary Russo closing thoughts
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Music by Lipbone Redding https://lipbone.com/
FULL TRANSCRIPT
00:06 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
So many people do know what they need. If, given the resources to figure that out and that's why I love the work you're doing and why I created the modern trauma toolkit is to say these are some solutions to consider. I put 40 different activities in the book so that people could design their personal solution strategy to healing both self and systems.
00:29 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Without hope, trauma intensifies. Think about that just for a moment, how it feels in your body, how it resonates with you, and I want you to just consider what that is like to have no possibilities, no resolution, no solutions, no hope. And I think it's safe to say that we've all been there at some point or another. Whether it is something very big or even small, that feeling of not having the control can be very overwhelming. In fact, it's common for our beautiful brain to go to that place, to want to keep us safe, to go to the negative, and it's up to us to reel her back right. If you've been with me for a while HIListically Speaking journey, you know that, whether it is the podcast or the brain candy newsletter, social, the HUG it Out Collective, wherever you're tuning in, however, we're connected. You know that. I'm all about sharing the sweetest ways to be kind to your mind and creating that space for conversations, connections, and solutions.
01:33
Hope, right, but I can't do it alone. I certainly cannot do it alone. That's why we need our tribe, our collective right, our community, and part of that is having people like Dr Christy Gibson joining me. She's part of that circle. She is not only a Havening Techniques practitioner. She is a family physician, a trauma therapist and author of the Modern Trauma Toolkit, which we're going to talk about, but also you've probably seen her as the TikTok trauma doc. Such a little like works really well, right. Well, christy, you offer such value. And when I read those words because those were your words that you said that it's now time to share what can be done to provide hope and solution focus, because without hope, trauma intensifies, it really hit me and I think we're really past due.
02:22 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
So, having you here to share your story, how you're helping, others and really talk about the book, which we will do is a gift, so thanks for being here. Well, thank you so much. What a beautiful intro Thanks, listen.
02:35 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I have to say first of all it was so good to see you in person and have an opportunity to just give you a hug and spend some time with you during the Havening Conference which we just came back from in New York and you know there were a lot of people circling around getting to know you and your book that have maybe not met you before or were really touched, moved and inspired by the book or just what you're sharing and putting out there in the world. And I know that comes from what you've been through and I think that would be a really good place to start is to really have a better understanding of who Dr Gibson is, the TikTok trauma doc, and how you came into this work.
03:12 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
I think being the Dr Gibson part was actually a large part of the trauma that I didn't even know was sneaking up on me. So many others, like Lissa Rankin, a dear friend, have spoken about the trauma that's inherent in the work of being a physician, and we're not really taught to acknowledge it sufficiently. So, if I think about my origin story, while I really enjoyed being a hospital based doctor for 16 years, it took a lot out of me physically, emotionally, spiritually. Took a lot out of me physically, emotionally, spiritually. And it wasn't until I was out of that job that I recognized just how traumatic it is to like not just be up all night for 30 hours, ignoring the cues of hunger or, you know, sleep that your body is screaming at you, but also the vicarious suffering, the fact that somebody might die and then you have to go to the next room and somebody else is suffering in a different way, and we're not really taught how to process the very human feelings that we get when we're interacting with so much suffering. And that's one of the things that I needed to work on, and I'm still. It's a work in progress around my own healing, but it wasn't until I was caught in the earthquakes in Nepal in 2015,.
04:26
That PTSD kind of came on my radar. I was experiencing not PTSD, which is the disorder when it's continuing for a prolonged time and it's unexpected. This was post traumatic symptoms that I was having related to shaking. So if there was a garage in the building that I was in and the garage was moving up and down, I could feel that in every single cell of my body.
04:54
I did see a psychiatrist in Singapore. Luckily I had some insurance that was going to cover some medical visits and I said to him like, do I have PTSD? What's happening? I'm so hyper aware of everything around me. And he said, no, no, you're having a normal response to an abnormal situation and over time we'll see if this does linger beyond what's an expected amount of time. And fortunately for me, within the first two to three years the symptoms really faded and I had very few lingering symptoms. And the first time that I was exposed to Havening techniques I think I said this in the talk that I gave at our conference I processed the feeling of being in the earthquake and all of those vibratory senses that were stuck in my body and my nervous system and my very first demo experience of Havening those disappeared. So I had a very embodied, somatic experience of that, and the more techniques that I explored, the more that I was like people need to know this, physicians need to know this, all therapists need to know this.
06:02 - Hilary Russo (Host)
But, like humans parents, teachers, dentists, realtors, people who work with the public, who might be facing their trauma in front of them and so that's become, uh, one of my new system level interventions that I'm really keen to work on yeah, and you know, when you spoke at the conference and it was really a gift to be on stage with you there, like I always love to surround myself with like minds and we're learning from each other, right, we're almost like a masterclass to each other in different ways.
06:36
And you sharing your story and hitting on that point, that PTS, ptsd like a lot of people that aren't in the area that we're in or working in health or medicine, they compound everything and you mentioned that in your book actually about the DSM-5, you know that we're more than just a symptom, we're more than just a diagnosis and sometimes and I'm sure you hear this with patients and clients people go right to oh, I know I have this, oh, I know I have that, and then you become that thing and it's much more difficult to break that.
07:14
Well, maybe not as difficult when you have amazing tools like Havening techniques, right, but you become this. It's like you label yourself right. You become this. It's like you label yourself right According to this out-of-date DSM-5 that we're still following and it has value, but in other ways, like we're giving people the simplicity of there are so many ways that you can heal and it begins within, just be honest be knowledgeable, yeah, so I wanted to explain what PTSD was so that I could uncover that box and explain it in a way that was really easy to understand.
07:51 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
We mentioned before we started recording just the main goal for me with the Modern Trauma Toolkit was to create something that was really accessible, Even though you know I'm a doctor and I actually have a doctorate, so I'm doctor, doctor. My goal is to get knowledge into people's hands in an easy way that's not going to stir up their nervous system too much. So I wanted to write a book that was both accessible from a health literacy perspective. You don't have to know big words. You know like psychoneuroimmunology, which is the study of exactly what Havening Techniques does and how it affects the mind-body. I wanted to explain this at a grade eight level of understanding and in a way that wasn't going to talk about the big things that might happen to you and really get your nervous system triggered. So, even though it might still activate some people, I think what differentiates the Modern Trauma Tool toolkit is it's a book that you can read comfortably and then go to sleep. That was really my goal.
08:53 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Doesn't trigger you.
08:55 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
Yeah, for it to feel like you're getting a hug at the same time that you're getting information, which was different.
09:02 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Well, you know I'm going to resonate with that.
09:04
Yeah totally HUG it out. Having the ability to HUG it out with yourself, whatever that means to you, is really important. And if you're reading a pretty intense book at night, what do you think that's going to do to your subconscious mind? You know you're going to go into that place and constantly be thinking about it and it caused restless sleep. So being able to have something that you said is like a hug before you go to bed, a soothing technique that you can do right before you go to bed and people do like to read. I think that's beautiful. What caused you to go this route? To say I need a book, I need to write this.
09:41 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
I mean, ultimately it was my patients. I work currently I mean, I still do family practice, mostly at our refugee clinic, but I work also in trauma therapy with our refugees here in Calgary and I work in adult addictions. And then I have a really small group of people that I've been seeing for many years that I still see, who have what we call a high ACE score. So that's an adverse childhood experience score and it basically means they went through trauma in childhood and they need a really gentle guiding hand and a lot of them don't have access financially to mental health care that would be good for processing trauma. They can access, you know, some basic interventions for anxiety, but for trauma processing that can get quite expensive and in Canada at least, it's not always covered. So my goal was to work in equity deserving communities, because my entire career has been working in these communities that are often denied access, denied equity, denied safety, and so that was really important to me, that I was a resource, and one of the things that I noticed is a lot of patients would say, well, what book would you recommend? And I might come up with a few podcasts that I thought would be like reasonably safe to listen to. But I really wanted a book that was diverse in terms of cultural awareness and addressing the systemic factors that a lot of my patients face in terms of classism and racism and ableism and even the medical trauma that physicians like me can perpetuate, and I felt like if I wasn't addressing that and addressing the system level traumas that are imposed on people, then it's kind of like gaslighting and saying, oh, you are the only one having this problem, this is an individual thing and you know, because I also study systems and social innovation. It was really important for me to write a book that my patients could feel safe reading and that potential was there and that I was also looking at systemic causes and solutions of the trauma. So, while I definitely focus on the individual, the systems was a part of it.
11:54
So the Modern Trauma Toolkit kind of came about in this amazing way. Actually, I was asked to write a book by publishers who had been following me on TikTok and they were listening to little tidbits from TikTok TraumaDoc and they thought, well, wow, wouldn't this be amazing in a book? And I thought, yeah, I have this book in my brain already and I sat down and wrote the outline that still stuck in the final version of the book in an afternoon, like I had this book in my head and once I flushed out the proposal, I mean there was a bidding war for the book. Lots of people were really interested in this particular view of toxic stress and this particular way of writing about it. So it was. It was so exciting.
12:38 - Hilary Russo (Host)
That is exciting, and you know it's just sometimes having somebody else look at you and go. This is valuable Right else look at you and go.
12:45
This is valuable, right? So I'm in the process of writing a book myself and submitting the proposals and hearing some really great feedback, because I think there is room for all of us to share with integrity, with authenticity, with knowledgeable factual information. But where I feel that your book is different from every other book that I have come into contact with is that what you just said about the inclusivity, the diversity and being that you have worked all over the world and dealt with those kind of cultures, the misrepresented, just cultures that need this, that might not be able to afford. This is level up, is level up and I have to say I connect with that fully because in my work, when I was working with CVS Health in Aetna, which is really a big company, two big companies here in the States we did a show on the social determinants of health, where we would travel to different areas around the country and focus on areas that could not afford a spa or wellness program or therapy and they were creating their own programs so that their communities were living healthy and well.
14:02
And you see it firsthand, I know right. Doesn't it make you so exciting, like walking into food pantries and seeing a community getting together and doing a wellness project, and I'm like I was just giddy seeing this. It wasn't something I would normally see in my everyday. I don't live in that world Right, so something like this would be so beneficial the Modern Trauma Toolkit. For anybody that was just interested, maybe it's not the person that lives in that community, but somebody who's supporting them like I'm going to bring this to that community. This could be really helpful for them. You know, and it excites you to know that there are possibilities and solutions. So I appreciate you putting out something like that and taking that into account so somebody doesn't feel less than when they're presented with an issue, a problem, a trauma.
14:46 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
Yeah, and I think it took me some time because, you know, physicians are fixers, we're like, we think we are the brokers of solutions, and it took me some time to really understand that community knows their own solutions.
14:59
So this was actually my first TED Talk right after the earthquake. Interestingly, I was asked to give a TED Talk and they they didn't tell me what to talk about, they just said well, what is the earthquake making you think about? I thought honestly that I was not the solution to the problem of the earthquakes in Nepal. And so you know, western savior types, we kind of rush into disaster zones and like, if you're with something like MSF and you've got the logistics and you, you've got the expertise to handle that, that's great. But I had an expectation of myself and others had an expectation of myself and others had an expectation of me that I would be really useful after an earthquake, and I wasn't. I just wanted to be rescued. And in the meantime, the Nepali community was ready, because they have earthquakes quite regularly. And so what I had witnessed was this like sense of shame in myself about like well, you're a doctor, you should be useful. You're a Western person, what's your role here? And in the meantime, witnessing these Nepali doctors in Patten, which was the hospital I was affiliated with, so organized, so committed and so equipped to with with low resources, they still did everything they could to do exactly what was needed after the earthquake. And as I watched that unfold and community would fashion up a tent where everybody who was unhoused, whose houses had fallen down in the Patton neighborhood, they would be under these giant tents and they would have communal bowls of rice being served to 50, 100 people and I just watched all of that happen, I thought, you know, community knows what it needs. So that's, you know, watching it.
16:34
In an acute trauma, but also in chronic traumas, like when a community is facing resource scarcity, that's kind of imposed on them, that I always think of vulnerability as something that is created through the system and not intrinsic to that person, or definitely not that community.
16:50
And there are so many solutions. So that's why I talked about things like asset-based community development and I taught people how to run a social innovation lab, because I actually did that at a healthcare center that I was working at and I thought what are the ways that we can ask community how to solve their own problems? We create an advisory council, we did digital storytelling projects. So many people do know what they need if given the resources to figure that out, and that's why I love the work you're doing and why I created the Modern Trauma Toolkit is to say these are some solutions to consider. I put 40 different activities in the book so that people could design their personal solution strategy to healing both self and systems. Put 40 different activities in the book so that people could design their personal solution strategy to healing both self and systems.
17:33 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Oh yeah, girl, I get it. This is why I love having people like you in my circle, because we learn from each other. Like I said, and I'm sitting here listening to you thinking the last thing a community wants is somebody to come in and tell them to change everything and take away part of what might be part of their culture. Right, totally Like ripping that away from them and saying this is how it's going to solve the problem. It's like you don't know me, you don't know the ancestral importance that goes on with how we do things and you see that so much like we can fix you.
18:06
And, yes, there are elements that you can synergetically bring into a culture and see how it works for them. But when I see that those areas where it's just like rip out, this is a solution, it's like do you have any idea the value that this community has in themselves, the pride, even if it, even if their currency is not high as far as financially, their currency, and pride for who they are is you know, and I think it's really listening and as we talk more about inclusivity and diversity and how we can really work together to help each other in this global village, this blue marble. We live on. These conversations need to happen.
18:51 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
I love so much how you phrase that, Hilary, around that intrinsic value, and I think we talk so much about ancestral trauma and that's very real. And I do love the somatic technique. So in the book I have a chapter on Havening, a chapter on EFT tapping. So in the book I have a chapter on Havening, a chapter on EFT tapping, a chapter on tremoring, because these are really easy things to learn in the comfort of your home and definitely if you're dealing with trauma, you probably need some professional guidance so that you don't freeze or dissociate or flood or get overwhelmed. But these somatic tools should be taught in school. They should be taught to everybody. Tools should be taught in school. They should be taught to everybody. And just as we acknowledge and work on that subconscious ancestral trauma that sometimes is pre-verbal and body-based solutions are so much more helpful. I love also focusing on the value of ancestral wisdom and culture and so people don't think that it's adding to their vulnerability. It's also an intrinsic strength. Yeah, I just love how you phrase that.
19:53 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Well, I'll have to read back on what I said and watch this, because sometimes I just say things because I'm so passionate about it, which I'm sure you do too, but it just comes from such an authentic place. It really is about not us empowering anybody, not us healing anybody, but giving them the tools so that they're self-empowered. We don't want to own that, and I say this a lot, and I'm sure you do too. It's like the best thing that I could ever have from a client is them saying I don't think I need you anymore.
20:21
I want that Comment, if you have another upset or issue or something else you want to talk about, but I don't want you to need me, right? I want you to know that you have everything you need right here and if you need additional assistance outside of what your own body and mind, the secret language that exists right here has, then we can come back and have another conversation, because we all need each other anyway, you know. So it's making it so simple and like even in the subtitle of the book, which is nurture your post-traumatic growth right With personalized solutions, your personalized your post-traumatic growth right and thinking about we're always on this growing journey, you know.
21:07 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
And thinking about. We're always on this growing journey, you know, and I think we are to some extent, but there are a lot of people who feel stuck, that they don't know the next steps to take, and so what I love is how many of us are putting out good information into the world that's free and accessible and anyone can find it. I didn't know these solutions. You know I had been a practicing physician for probably 18 years before I took a deep dive into trauma healing and I ended up getting certified in like a dozen different modalities, because I'm just a very innately curious person, and it's not that I don't use them in my practice I definitely do. But also part of what I love doing is sharing, and so I'll talk about Havening, but I'll also talk about my favorite processing technique is called accelerated resolution therapy, and it was the very first one I learned, and when I started doing it as a doctor, I started to recognize that I had patients who had terrible lung disease and they were always working to catch their breath and so much of it was actually obstructed breathing because they had a sense of suffocation and even like an energetic disruption in their breath cycle related to trauma. And once we processed trauma they breathed differently. I had another patient whose diabetes was totally out of control. Their A1c, which is a marker of sugar in their bloodstream, was up above 14, which is like twice as high as it should be. We did trauma processing together. They processed like one of the most heartbreaking traumas I've ever borne witness to and their A1c dropped in half and it's been almost normal since that time, and so much of it was this disconnection to their own body. So sometimes people can't find solutions on their own because they're either not wanting to acknowledge that their mind-body system is alive and functioning that's a safety mechanism is to dissociate and to disconnect from your own system. Part of establishing that safety was processing some of these big things that people went through.
23:10
And once I started to recognize how far upstream this was. So upstream interventions are the ones that are more preventative and they're earlier and healing from trauma and healing your nervous system. State when your amygdalas are firing and telling you every single day that you're in danger. Well, that's exhausting and it's taking a lot of your energy and it's actually turning off your immune system and all of the parts of your body that are self-healing.
23:36
So we help your Amy's your amygdalas and say like, hey, I don't think you're in danger anymore, or could you just learn the moments when you can be in a safe and connected nervous system state? Then all of these self-healing mechanisms kick in again, and once I saw that firsthand using accelerated resolution therapy, I was like, okay, wow, what else is there? And as a physician, this is one of the most important things I could be doing. So I mean, it was really exciting for me to witness that within my family practice. I just remember my first couple of years exploring this back in like 2017, 18, and the transformations I was seeing and thinking there's nothing more important than this.
24:25 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, yeah, and thinking there's nothing more important than this, yeah, yeah. And I want to ask you so many questions about how a medical doctor because, look, when you're dealing with Western med and you're taught a certain way, thinking about techniques and other possibilities outside of what has traditional Western med, there are some people that aren't going to gravitate to that. So I want to talk about that in a second, but I do want to remind folks the Modern Trauma Toolkit, dr Christy Gibson's book an amazing, put in your library, right, and we're going to have a link to this in the podcast notes for you to grab it. If you have already read the book would love to know what you think about it. Leave a comment, a, a review, a rating, anywhere that you're tuning in. If you are curious about how to get in touch with dr christie myself, I'm going to have all that in the podcast notes.
25:15
And, of course, if this is touch, moved and inspired you in any way this conversation thus far, pay it forward. Let somebody else know about it. If you know somebody that's like oh, I know someone who's confronted with this, or I know someone that might want to bring these tools into their community, pay it forward my somebody that's like oh, I know someone who's confronted with this, or I know someone that might want to bring these tools into their community. Pay it forward, my friend. That's. The best way to build community in a collective is to let others know about it. So thank you for that. Doctor Christy Gibson I hear this a lot because I have a lot of doctors on the show. I've had traditional Western medicine doctors who are some of them are even leaving their practice because they feel kind of, you know, tied, mainly here in the States, especially going into functional medicine, integrative approaches because they're tied. What made you say aha, no, I gotta, I gotta look into this.
26:08 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
Well, and I think in Canada we have a little bit more leeway because we don't have, like, a health insurance company dictating how we manage our patients.
26:16
So we we do have a little bit more freedom to explore and be flexible. I know a lot of people who are straddling integrative and Western techniques. I'm also in the lifestyle medicine community and I think a lot of that is so natural and intrinsically preventative. There is that exploration. So lots of physicians that I know are exploring and I like to think of myself as really straddling both worlds and hoping to bring them together because I don't think either of them has all of the answers right. So the more that we collect all of the different tools that are available, people will be able to personalize the things that work for them. So even though I haven't seen a lot of evidence that antidepressants are curative for PTSD, I've had some patients who really benefit from it. So even though I have a lot more tools in my toolkit than medications, I'm never going to say to a person oh, this can't work for you because that's not everyone's experience. So I love how, because we're recognizing in medicine that trauma. There is no single pill that's going to miraculously heal trauma. Although psychedelics do hold a lot of promise, we need this in an integrated way. I mean, a psychedelic medication, in my perspective, is not going to work if you just take it and you're in a room by yourself. Trauma, especially relational trauma, heals in relationships, and so the set and the setting in a therapeutic relationship surrounding the use of psychedelics is the factor, and so I think that's one of the reasons why the FDA kind of voicing concern over it is because, like, how do you manualize all of those safety mechanisms around it?
27:57
I was taught in medical school try SSRIs or antidepressants for almost every you know psychiatric condition. For PTSD we're told to use blood pressure medications, so alpha blockers or beta blockers that change the way that your heart rate is beating and then perceived, so you don't necessarily have that body-based trigger for anxiety, and that could help with nightmares. It would help you potentially have a calm body as you're falling asleep and less likely to cue up those intrusive symptoms. That was all we had in our armamentarium. And then, in terms of therapy, I was told cognitive behavior therapy is the gold standard for almost everything, and I had a lot of unlearning to do.
28:45
I think curiosity and humility are really, really important for all professionals to keep, and we're not always good at it. We're like well, this is what I was taught and this is what the evidence says. And I write a disclaimer really early in the chapter on Havening. And I actually felt a bit bad because Dr Ron Rudin was sitting on the chair next to me reading through my chapter because I'd gifted him a copy and I was like, oh, how's he going to feel? Because I said right in the first few paragraphs it doesn't have the level of randomized clinical trials or randomized control trial that I'm used to seeing as a medical doctor and yet it's one of the most effective treatments that I've been exposed to. So I wanted to be to put that out there and say, even though I am a scientist, I've got a doctor doctor behind my name. I'm also going to listen to my patients and see what's working and try to understand the neurophysiology. And that's what I love about what the Rudin's did.
29:43
Is they really researched? What are the parts of the inner brain mechanisms that are being activated through the Havening techniques and what is the physiological basis about why these work? And I've started to research that around eye movement techniques like accelerated resolution therapy and brain spotting, deep brain reorienting there's a lot of different therapies where there's actually research into what's happening in your brainstem, and so part of why I love being a doctor who's using these body based, somatic, integrative, psycho sensory, all of these new techniques is I love exploring why they might be working and we're coming up with some not just theories, but even Ruth Lanius's lab in Ontario. She's a psychiatrist who does a lot of basic science research and she's using functional MRI imaging to show how different kinds of techniques are working in the treatment of trauma, so we're actually starting to see the scientific evidence of something that we clinically knew was working. This is such an exciting time, so exciting knew was working.
30:46 - Hilary Russo (Host)
This is such an exciting time, so exciting and while you're talking about being there next to Dr Ron and having him read, that and it made me think, like what if someone picks up this book or somebody does Havening and tries it for the first time and they're willing to fund a study because they want?
31:05
to know more and they've seen it Like just getting it out there is know you do that. This is such a nurturing, loving, effective technique and it's so simple, much like many of the others in the book as well. But for something like this, where I know and you know, I said this during my presentation you get the question, you get a lot is what's happening? Right? But fine, ask that question because I'd love to tell you what it is.
31:40 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
Or I'd love to share it with you, or I'd love to show you how it works.
31:45 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I mean, I was at a car dealership yesterday having a one-to-one with one of my fellow business networking people and of course you know I'm learning about his business, he's learning about mine. He's like what is it? I was like how long you got. I'm like leave the door open, Don't worry what's going on around you. I can show you what this is in five minutes and let's see how you feel. It's that easy, right? So just being able to put it out there in the inquisitive curiosity of others who might be able to help put a modality like this next level, it's just keep talking about it, which brings me to TikTok trauma doc. Okay, Like that's a whole level up, and I know this is something that you, you, you started doing this during the pandemic, obviously right, Because we're all bored.
32:31 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
Well, and it was. It was a young person who encouraged me, so I have a couple of amazing young people in my life.
32:37
I don't have biological kids, but there's a woman named Aishwarya that I met when she was in university and it started off as a mentorship relationship but it definitely deepened. We text almost daily now and one of the things that happened quite early in the pandemic. This was January 2021, when I joined, and she said you know, the way that you explain mental health concepts is really different. Like you have just a way of using language that I can really get what you're saying, whereas I've heard this concept before and I don't think I understood it in the same way. You need to get on TikTok. And so she taught me that I had to watch YouTube videos about how to TikTok, which is so meta when you think about it. So I joined, you know, january 2021. By the time, I had my book deal guessing that was a year later I had about 60,000 followers and then, like now, I have about 130,000. I mean, kate Truitt has a lot too.
33:32
Like there's there's a few of us in the Havening community that are really trying to put this out there, and because TikTok is being targeted as a social media education platform in the states that may or may not survive. I am trying to upload more to Instagram and YouTube and my Facebook, so those would be under Christine or Christy Gibson MD. Some places I'm called Gibtrotter. My Facebook, uh, so those would be under Christine, christine or Christy Gibson MD. Um. Some places I'm called Gib trotter, uh, because I I travel so much, um so. So there, there are different platforms I'm using. All of them are um Christine.
34:13
Gibsonnet is my um as my professional page, so you can track me down and we'll share all of that.
34:17 - Hilary Russo (Host)
We'll share all that in the podcast notes so that you can get in touch with Dr Christy, but like they're going to find you anyway, well, and part of me worries that TikTok will be gone by the time.
34:25 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
This airs Like it does feel like a really real thing that they might take away from us, and I personally love that community. There's so many good mental health practitioners there mental health practitioners there and there is misinformation, but it's pretty easy to weed out. You can figure out both who's got credibility. But also, is the thing that they're sharing working for you? Is it actually helping heal your nervous system and learning to touch in and figure out which of the techniques are actually feeling good for you and how is your day going once you've learned these? And that's what I think is so special about Havening is people have such a body-based understanding of how it helps immediately after trying five minutes in a car dealership.
35:08 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Come on, exactly. It's like just give it a try. The first step is the hardest. It's stepping into the tension of saying well, all right, I got five minutes, let me see what she's doing on this old ticky-tock right or anything. And I came to the TikTok game a little later and that was okay. But because I feel like we all are sharing in some way, like you mentioned, dr Kate, yourself, the podcast is big for me, or Instagram, and it's really finding what works for you. So we're kind of infiltrating every possibility, you know, and then we'll like if things move around and things do go away and you know we've seen that happen with other social media sites we'll find our way and people will find us, you know it's just keeping authentic and putting out the content.
35:54
But my big question is how does someone who has not done that you're watching all these videos on youtube, like you said? I mean, how much time did you invest in that?
36:04 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
yeah, I mean there was definitely a time investment to try to figure out what does the algorithm like, and I mean I had to watch a lot of tick tocks to see, well, what are the trending sounds and the trending themes and um. So I definitely did some of that. Like, my first videos that blew up were on trending sounds, that I was doing something kind of interesting based on that. So one of the early ones was kind of my journey through medicine and then learning how to be a trauma therapist, and I did that to music. And then my first video that really blew up was related to Havening. It was describing information. So it got like a million views.
36:41
I didn't relate it to Havening in the video, I just wanted to share what informations were.
36:45
But I learned this when I was studying the Havening techniques and so then after that video blew up, I was like OK, gosh, I got to tell people the origin story. So I had to explain like who actually came up with the formations and what the what ifs were and how I learned them in Havening training. And it's one of the things I like so much about the techniques is there is the body based practicing of, you know, the gentle brushing on the areas of your body that create calming delta, theta waves in the brain. And people are creating these amazing techniques to go along with it. And people are creating these amazing techniques to go along with it, and that's what I was trying to share in this integrative way at the conference is we are starting to just learn all of the amazing potential within these techniques, so using them with if formations or what if statements. Harry Pickens says that this plant seeds of possibility in the neural garden. I love how he describes that.
37:39 - Hilary Russo (Host)
With his voice too.
37:40 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
Oh, I know.
37:42 - Hilary Russo (Host)
You can listen to Harry all day.
37:43 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
Yeah.
37:44 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Fellow Havening practitioner, my friends.
37:46 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
Amazing human. And I like how you said voice, because voice is really important to me too. And so when I'm sharing on my TikTok channel, when I was reading the audio book at the Hachette offices in New York which was like the coolest week of my life I was really deliberate and saying, like, my voice has to feel safe enough. Because of polyvagal theory, we know that tone of voice and the way that you are moving your facial muscles actually makes a person's nervous system feel safer. So we can co-regulate through the mirror neurons in our brain that are saying, hey, is this person safe? And tone of voice makes a huge difference for that. So there was all of these factors that were important for me in terms of delivering the message.
38:31
So when I'm on TikTok and I'm thinking, well, what is the thing that I want to share, sometimes I can get my tone of voice a little into that sympathetic fight and flight tone if I'm talking about the systems that are harming people. But when I'm giving those healing skills, I want people to really have an understanding right away. Oh, wow, my nervous system feels different. That's so exciting to be able to share. Oh, my nervous system feels different.
38:57 - Hilary Russo (Host)
That's so exciting to be able to share Totally. And I had that moment thinking, oh, she was at the publisher's office recording the book, soothing yourself because of that whole Vegas nerve. And that's why we do the OM, that's why we sing Different ways that you can create that safety in your own body while you're sharing it with others. So it's like paying it forward in your own way while you're sharing it with others. So it's like paying it forward in your own way while you're reading your own book. I mean that must have been fascinating.
39:23 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
And I mean it's not just reading the book, because that was like, even though it was an amazing week, it was, it was just a week, but I find I don't feel as stressed at the end of my day. So a lot of my physician friends will say, like how can you listen to trauma stories all day? And like A I don't tend to encourage people giving me too many details about their trauma. That can strengthen the pathway towards those memories. But for me to do something like Havening or tapping along with my patients all day, like I'm doing this you know, 80% of the day I'm using one of those techniques during a session I feel so different. I feel so regulated and calm at the end of the day. So I feel like I'm processing a lot of my own nervous system dysregulation, from being present to suffering. That's not a skill that I learned as a physician and all of us need it.
40:16
So, I'm trying so hard to get this book into health professionals hands to say like you're dealing with suffering all day, how are you managing that? Like, yeah, like, be gentle with yourself and learn something that will help your nervous system too, and then share it with all of your patients.
40:32 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Absolutely. I said that last year at the conference because you know, coming from the background as a journalist, the forgotten first responders were like the first ones on scene first ones to hear the story.
40:43
We're taking in all that information just like if it's a patient or a client and you don't want to take that home with you, and then you're thinking you're just burned out or overwhelmed and it's like so much deeper. It's that secondary traumatic stress, right, the vicarious trauma. So understanding, okay, I've got a lot that's coming at me. I can self-regulate while I'm listening to this person.
41:08
It actually allows them to mirror back and feel more comfortable knowing that you're not just sitting across from someone in a Freudian way on a couch being like, tell me your feelings, you're part of the process with them. Like, hey, I'm human too. I got feelings, I got, I got a nervous system that's out of whack every once in a while. I hear you, right, and they just want to be heard. We want to be heard. So, on that note, love everything we're sharing. We're going to put it all in the podcast notes.
41:30
Again, the modern trauma toolkit You're going to find it because I'm going to share it with you. Also, dr Christy on TikTok so much that you can do to find Christy and bring her into your toolkit as well with what she's sharing. So we'll share all that. But I want to have a little fun with you before we go, because this is where, if you ever listened to my podcast, you know this is coming. If you haven't, you're in for a treat. So I play a game called Rapid Fire, where I have written down words that you've said and I throw them out at you and I want you to come back with the first word that comes to mind.
42:05 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
No problem, let's do it.
42:06 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Oh, I know You're like ready for this. Okay, here we go. Relationships.
42:12 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
People.
42:14 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Safety.
42:16 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
Calm.
42:18 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Toolkit.
42:18 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
I know it's two words exciting growth potential earthquake, I want to say shook me well, that's okay, vicarious healing trauma opportunity.
42:37 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Healing, trauma, opportunity, tiktok.
42:40 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
Fun.
42:42 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Are you having fun on it?
42:43 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
I do yeah, absolutely.
42:45 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Look, I found you on there and I didn't even know you were a Havity practitioner back when you first did it, because we don't know everybody, even though we're a small group. There's only like a thousand of us. At that time there probably were six, seven hundred. But even at that point I'm like how does this lady know all about Havening? And then I was like, oh, that makes sense and I love that. I was like you just kind of like hi-fi in the screen, you know. So thank you for everything you're putting out there and just everything you're doing and creating this beautiful book and everything that you are doing to help people on their healing journey. I imagine we'll probably have some opportunities to connect and collaborate in the future, because I so align with everything you're doing and it would be a gift to do that in the future. But I want to ask you if there's anything you want to leave with those who are tuning in.
43:32 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
Just the way that you started the session. Let's finish with hope. A lot of people feel like this is who I am kind of. What you said earlier is this I am defined by the trauma that I've been through. That is not necessarily your story. You can always change your story and I think there are so many pathways towards that possibility for folks and I just encourage them to explore the paths that are feeling right for them, Because the path can lead to tremendous amounts of healing and I believe that's possible for all people.
44:07 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yes, and you know that was one word I never put in the rapid fire. What do you feel when you hear the word?
44:14 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
hope the word hope, yeah, magic. I feel like some of the things that I've been able to study and I feel so grateful to know it After finishing a session with somebody, that I can see the neuroplasticity happening in real time and their brain is rewiring. It feels magical, and I've had patients use that word and it's just the most uh, wonderful experience. Um, and you're right, it's. It's watching them heal themselves.
44:42 - Hilary Russo (Host)
It's magic it's like a silent hi-fi, like you're part of the process, but you're just happy. Somebody else is joyfully present and able to just live their lives well, optimally, you know, or has a new tool to do so. It's a good feeling.
45:01 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
It is a good day for a good day when that happens.
45:04 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, thank you, christy, it was a pleasure Thank you for being here.
45:09 - Dr. Christy Gibson (Guest)
Oh, thank you so much. That was an amazing conversation, Hilary. It's so great to spend more time with you.
45:16 - Hilary Russo (Host)
If this conversation aligned with you in any way, I want you to do us a solid over here at HIListically Speaking. Pay it forward, share it with others who might find value too, and just by leaving a rating and review wherever you tune in, it gives others a chance to find this podcast and conversations like this. The Modern Trauma Toolkit. My friend, this book is a must, and I put a link in the podcast notes so that you can grab a copy. Start trying out some of these amazing approaches. See what Dr Christy Gibson has to say. You can also find links to connect with her on whatever social media platform you choose, and you heard us talk about Havening. I talk about it a lot, but it was wonderful to talk about it with Christy and how you can be a part of the journey to put active emotional well-being in your own hands. If you're interested, there is a link and you can HUG it Out with you can with me and see if Havening aligns with you. Plus, you can come to one of my free Havening happy hours that I host every month, a supportive online event where you not only get to learn how to do Havening or continue to do it if you've been doing it already, but you have me as your guide during the experience. It's a wonderful way to do a little Q&A, a little discussion and lots of loving Havening. You can also join the free Hug it Out Collective that is my Facebook group. It is a supportive, safe space where others just like you are on the path to becoming, or continuing to be, a happy and healthy HIListically Speaking, , is edited by 2 market media, with music by Lipbone Redding and supported and listened to by you.
46:55
So, thank you. There is always hope. That's what I want to leave. So, thank you. There is always hope. That's what I want to leave you with today. There's always hope and as long as you've got me as your guide and me by your side, I will make sure that you always remember that I love you, I believe in you and I'm sending hugs your way. Be well.
-
I have sleep apnea. I also had major jaw surgery at 15. Are they connected? If I had a Magic 8 Ball, it would likely say, “All signs point to Yes”. And so would one pioneer in holistic dentistry by the name of Dr. Claire Stagg.
Through my personal journey of trauma and jaw surgery, we highlight the limitations of conventional solutions like CPAP and oral appliances, underscoring the need for a comprehensive, whole-body approach. Dr. Stagg shares invaluable insights into the interconnectedness of our body's systems, focusing on non-surgical solutions for TMJ, clenching, grinding, sleep apnea, and airway disorders.
This is about building your symphony of specialists who focus on the root cause, not just the diagnosis. It's the conversation I wish my parents and I had over 35 years ago when I sat in the dentist's chair. Today, I hope it serves as a guide for anyone struggling to find answers. And for parents, let it offer a new kind of hope for your kids to leave you better informed when it comes to your dental health and overall well-being.
Grab a copy of Dr. Stagg's book, “Smile: It's All Connected"
Hardcover: https://amzn.to/3XLYm9X (Amazon)
Share storytime about proper dental health with her children's book "Captain IFBI" https://amzn.to/4cipP7l (Amazon)
Get the Daily Dental Protocol Checklist.
https://lp.constantcontactpages.com/sl/Y4V5mXBCONNECT WITH DR STAGG
https://healthconnectionsdentistry.com/
https://www.instagram.com/SmileProDentist
https://www.facebook.com/SmileProDentist
HEALING IN YOUR HANDS. HAVENING WITH HILARY
https://www.hilaryrusso.com/havening
CONNECT WITH HILARY
https://www.hilaryrusso.com/podcast
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Music by Lipbone Redding https://lipbone.com/FULL TRANSCRIPT ALSO ON PODCAST WEBSITE
00:06 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
Think about all the systems that are shut down because you can't breathe right? The oral appliance isn't going to fix it. The CPAP is definitely not going to fix it, because what's going to happen is the body is going to acclimatize or get used to that level of band-aiding and then it's like okay, you know what it is. The little Dutch boy with his finger came to mind with a dam. So you put one finger here and then you put one finger here, and then you put one finger here and you put one finger, and then you're not gonna have enough fingers or toes, and then the dam's gonna break. And it's exactly the same concept.
00:40 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Okay, my friends, One of the reasons I went into the work that I do is it was an effort to heal my own trauma and, as a result of that, from having TMJ my whole life, from having jaw surgery when I was a teenager and not knowing really how to heal and not getting the right kind of support after that surgery, I wanted to know what I could do to heal later in life, because we really never stop healing, right? You hear me talk about that all the time and it's really how Havening came into my life. It was the first time I was ever Havened was on the trauma from my surgery years later. But what we're learning is that it's all connected. Everything from head to toe. It's all connected. Everything from head to toe, it's all connected.
01:32
So when I was introduced to Dr Claire Stagg, a holistic dentist who believes in the whole body approach thank you so much I knew that her story and her method would resonate with so many others, because I've had these conversations with so many Dr Stagg about TMJ, jaw issues, clenching, grinding, stress and the problems that happen after the breathing, the sleep apnea, and it's such a common problem. So when you came into my space, when I was introduced to you by a client who you introduced me to, I knew that you were the right person to talk about this, to share the journey, to share possibilities, and I am so grateful that you are here.
02:12 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
Well, thank you, thank you, and I think it would be good to, if it's okay with you, to answer your questions and your journey, because I think you went through the whole gamut of from the start out the gate to the journey itself. So the first thing I'd like to add is that surgery is a massive undertaking and, unfortunately, one of the things because you and I have talked before this is that, without stepping on too many toes and being politically correct, it would be wise to figure out why orthognathic surgery is being done. A lot of times people are having their jaws move forward without understanding how the whole concepts work, and a lot of times some things can be done, so a lot and some can be done non-surgically. You just don't know what. You don't know until you know it. So surgery is a end-all, be-all concept and if you have a broken bone, it's a good time to put things together.
03:20
But the head, the cranium, all these things keep moving all the time. I have a skull here with sutures. I mean this is just the top part, if you will, this is the front. The head you can tell Fred moves a lot too with me. Then this is the part that I work with and this is what I tell everybody, this is what I do right this part and right this part, and then this part. All right, but not as crooked. But what happened is you had your surgery to go ahead and to fix something that might have been fixable without it actually having to have the surgery. So here we go. I'm trying to put it all together for you and showing us us on YouTube.
04:04 - Hilary Russo (Host)
We are on YouTube in case anybody wants to watch the video rather than just listen. It is on YouTube.
04:10 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
Right. So what I'm trying to say basically is that if you approach and saying that you need jaw surgery, please educate yourself more before you go down that rabbit hole, because it makes us a lot harder for us who are coming in behind to work on, to have arch expansion or arch development or airway issues to resolve them, if we're trying to move bone when you have screws tying them in. That's all I'm trying to say. So I interjected very early on. I'm sorry, but that's where I think. If you start off the gate that way and I think, unfortunately your issues, if I may say so, continued and stemmed from the actual surgery. They were trying to do one thing, but you ended up with a lot of other things. So that's where we have to weigh the pros and the cons, right.
04:59 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Absolutely.
04:59 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
Very delicate.
05:00 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, and it's something that you know. Back in the 80s, when this surgery was done, I was 15 years old. What was known about it? It was pretty much a younger surgery. The surgery itself was hours, the healing process was eight to 10 weeks with a jaw wired shut, and just you know. If this is triggering to anyone, I just want to preface that we're going to go there, that this surgery was not a minor surgery that you're doing in a dental office. I had a doctor that dealt with the face, I had an orthodontist, I had a dentist. It was like this team. And even after the surgery, a year later, I had follow-up surgery and I told myself. I said this has got to be it Like there can't be more than this because it was very traumatic. And this has got to be it Like this, there can't be more than this, because it was very traumatic. And the years following, because I was still growing, there was movement still happening, obviously, right.
05:55 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
So, and at 15, you're not finished growing. And that's the other thing to girls and boys grow differently. Girls can grow, still continue growing, sometimes up to 18, sometimes maybe even 21. Boys start later, but they can continue growing. I have a friend of my former husband who was continuing to grow tall at 29 plus. So everybody's different, but 15 is very young to do that.
06:19 - Hilary Russo (Host)
It was young. It was a decision I had to make.
06:21 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
We could start a column of pros and cons there, Hihillary, of things that could go really really well and things that we might want to wait because they might cause problems later on, right?
06:32 - Hilary Russo (Host)
But this is also something that you have a lot of younger patients and I know that there are moms and dads out there that listen that this might not be for them, specifically someone who's in my age range, but perhaps their child has breathing issues or they are dealing with. You know, I had the malocclusion, I had a protruded lower jaw and it was causing a lot of lockjaw and pain and discomfort and to go to that extreme after braces. I imagine that's not the approach this day and age, because there's more science, there's been more development, so it's also to give parents an understanding of information that they're getting about holistic dentistry and other possibilities before taking that approach with their children even.
07:19 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
All right, so let's go ahead about and talk. Interject also because you had four premolars extracted correct?
07:27 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yes, I think you're talking about the wisdom teeth. No, no, no, oh no.
07:32 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
The 18 year old molar right. We, in theory, have 32 teeth, all right. Unfortunately, and I'm just so we're. We're going to talk about all the not to do things all right, to put it in quotes for air, quotes for those who are listening there are a lot of things that and I'm not bashing orthodontists, please don't get me wrong, I'm not. I do orthodontics too, so that's not the issue. There's different ways of doing things all right. That's not the issue. There's different ways of doing things All right. One of them and if you, if you read or you know of Western Price, western Price talked about nutrition, about airway, of growing, of growing arches. All right, your head, your neck. So basically we're back to this again All right.
08:21
And unfortunately, what happens is that when you have the jaw joint like this, all right, this is this is, think of it this way, like this, and then like that, when you translate, okay, what happens? A lot of times? You end up with a jaw disorder or joint disorder if this whole part, this maxilla, this part, is not developed enough and it sounds to me like what you had was an underdeveloped upper arch right. So, unfortunately, a lot of times, people say, oh, this one, they think that this is the normal one. And then this is too far forward, the lower jaw is too far forward, and that's why you end up having all these issues. Let's go ahead and let's take teeth out and bring the jaw back. Well, you've just created a joint problem, a TM joint, temporal mandibular joint problem, because now you shove the joint back, the jaw back. So now you see the cascade of events and this is what I was trying to say the cascade of events, of all the not to do so. First of all, figure out why you need surgery, what has happened, and then all the not to do so. You can't compound a problem with another, causing causative problem that will create another set of problems.
09:48
So the first thing that you want to do is you want to be able to develop the arches and figure out which one truly is underdeveloped, because nine times out of ten, it's not necessary that the lower jaw is too far forward. Most of the time it's because the upper arch is not developed enough. And so, in order to balance them, conventional orthodontics go ahead and say let's take teeth out to make more room. Well, there's just so much. Think of a garage. This is my favorite analogy that I use. All right, think of a garage and let's say you have a 20 by 20 by 24, four walls that are 20 feet long, right? So it's a square, okay. And you say you're going to make more room and you decide to take four feet off in the length of each side of the garage. Will you have a bigger or a smaller?
10:45 - Hilary Russo (Host)
garage. You're not going to have a lot of space for those cars, that's for sure, correct. But you have a smaller garage, right, right, and it's exactly the same thing with the mouth, all right.
10:55 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
So think too, now that you have on top of that garage, you have another room, all right, which is the nose. The nose, if you will, is a hollow space, all right. But the floor of the nose is the roof of the mouth, which you've just made smaller. What are you doing to the nasal passages? It's the same exact thing. Now you've brought the jaws up and back, you've made the garage or the box smaller. You've made the nasal passages smaller. Now you've brought everything back. What's back here? It's the tube that the airway is. So you start breathing through the nose, and the tube continues from the nose down to the throat.
11:43 - Hilary Russo (Host)
And again, I just want to mention to folks if folks are actually listening and they want to see what Dr Stagg is talking about, you can go ahead and find this podcast episode on youtubecom slash Hilary Russo. You'll see all the podcast episodes there to watch as well, if you want to do that.
11:58 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
So, if you go ahead, when you think about it, this is a person laying down, but this is the best picture that I can have right now to where we need to breathe through our nose. A lot of people breathe through their mouths, but, no matter what, if you lay back and everything closes up, then you have OSA or obstructive sleep apnea. So, basically, what I'm trying to say is the rabbit hole started by, probably, the diagnosis of lack of airway or lack of space, and so that's where it would be important to go ahead and to determine what type of space do you want? Which space are you trying to open up? The nasal passage or the oropharyngeal passageway? An oral mouth? Pharynx is the back, where the throat is. So in your case, it sounds to me like they wanted to go ahead and to move your jaw so that you can have straight teeth, right.
12:54 - Hilary Russo (Host)
That was part of it, and also I was getting a lot of pain and jaw aches. So they broke it, set it back and I don't know if I truly remember everything because I was a kid. You know you think you're getting braces, retainers, it's all to straighten your teeth. That's it, day is done, perfect teeth and you're happy. But there were more issues I was dealing with and that is where I am now, 35 years later, where the problems have become the obstructive sleep apnea movement and wondering where does one go next when you have years in between and other issues are now coming up.
13:32 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
Right. So the rabbit hole you're down at the bottom of the rabbit hole, right? Okay? So we're not going to cry over spilt milk, because it is what it is, it's done. But now you're aware that there are issues that you have to deal with. Okay, so then the goal is to figure out how we can get you out of the rabbit hole by reverse engineering what has occurred. So, basically, now you're going to address your airway, you're going to address your jaw joints, you're going to address your bite and you're going to address your nasal passages both going to address your nasal passages, both upper and lower. That's the airway, all, right. So this is where you mentioned that you were talking with um sleep doctors. Okay, that's one part of the orchestra. If you will, all right, then you're going to talk with dentists. That's the other part of the team, if you will, the orchestra.
14:22
I like to say that patients are the music. You either have harmony or cac. Say that patients are the music. You either have harmony or cacophony. It's a French term. You either have chaos or you have health, right. So the whole idea now is to figure out who's going to be in charge of trying to figure out what's wrong, what happened where you are now, because we can't reverse engineer everything to. If you have screws in there, per se, all right, but the whole idea is to figure out what can we do to either see what we can ameliorate or make better and or stop from getting worse. So that's the interesting part is that's where you really need to figure out where you are now.
15:02
If you do have an airway issue, to what intensity is the airway issue an issue? Those of you who do not know anything about sleep apnea we have either a sleep test, a home sleep test, to where you can take a little apparatus. Home Dentists, we're not allowed to diagnose sleep apnea, but we can treat it with oral appliances. So mild to moderate sleep apnea we can treat with an oral appliance. Severe sleep apnea is supposed to be treated. Standard of the gold, standard of care is with a CPAP machine, which stands for continuous positive air pressure. It's like a reverse blow dryer mower back up your nose or your mouth, right. So if you consider that you have an issue, then we need to figure out what your index or your indices are. So, again, a lot of this is on my website, healthconnectionsdentistrycom, where you can read up on the sleep screenings. Again, we cannot diagnose sleep apnea, but we can treat it with an oral appliance.
16:07
Mild to moderate sleep apnea, usually at normal. Zero to five. Your indices are normal. Five to 15, it's mild sleep apnea, 15 to 30, it's moderate and over 30 is severe. Now, those are just the standard of care, the norms and the indices and who cares right. All you really need, as a patient, to know is whether I can breathe or not. Please, let me breathe or not. Let me help me breathe. So if you go ahead and you consider them, that's why you can have a home sleep test and we do home sleep test, because it helps me figure out as a dentist, because I can treat a functional breathing disorder that is in my wheelhouse. But I cannot treat sleep apnea without it being diagnosed by a physician. So if you have officially been diagnosed as you have Hilary with by a physician for sleep apnea, then that's where, too, you need to find yourself a doctor, dentist, who is versed in this type of care. So then you need to figure out where you're going to go from there.
17:18 - Hilary Russo (Host)
And I think that's the thing, and I've talked to other people and I know folks are tuning into this episode of HIListically Speaking with Dr Claire Stagg. Just to remind you, we will put that information on the website. We will put everything about the healthconnectionscom dentistry. Also her book that we're going to talk about that just came out. That's doing very well. And the questions I've been hearing from some who have been in these forums are are you know if you've been diagnosed with moderate sleep apnea? Like myself, I've also been through this traumatic TMJ surgery. I'm 35 years in. I know there are little plates in my mouth from the initial surgery and I've been given a referral to see an ENT, a referral to see a pulmonologist, a referral to see a speech pathologist. But then there's the airway side and then there's go find a dentist and it can be very overwhelming, like where to go first right.
18:12
And I think that's the similar question I hear from folks.
18:15 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
Where do I go first? Right, and that's where I said the orchestra, all right. So I like to think that a doctor like myself, a dentist, who sees the medical side as well as the oral dental side, we and I liken it to the conductor of the orchestra the orchestra, the parts, the wind, the pipes, the drums, the bass, the, whatever the strings, whatever, all the different parts, if you will are all the different doctors, if you will, who are doctors, if you will, who are going to partake in making music. The patient is the one who is the music, and you either are going to have that harmony where everything just falls into place and that everything works well and you're healthy, all right or you have everybody throw something at the wall and expecting something to stick right. That's putting it pump up politely. So the goal is to get the bullseye the first time if you fail to plan to plan to fail, right, right. And so the goal now is someone like myself and we we talked about this is we got to figure out where you are exactly in this point in time. It didn't really matter so much anymore now, because you've had that surgery and that changes and has changed you forever. But where are you now? What are the building blocks that we can use now to move forward? Interject here for the parents and for those who are asking yeah, but this doesn't pertain to me. Well, we can work with children With the AFT systems.
19:50
Dr Nordstrom has come up with systems to work with neonates. You can do the tie releases. You can start as from the newborns on. The whole idea is to breathe properly. Once you breathe properly, as in, you have proper tongue position and then you have proper nasal breathing, then you set yourself up for success, right.
20:10
Unfortunately, with a modern diet and with the way that things are going nowadays, unfortunately things retract a lot and you don't have that room and you end up with disorders and you went through what you went through. Okay, so if we go ahead and we have that conductor I circled back now to the music all right, if you go ahead and you have a team, somebody's got to know what the right hand's doing. Somebody has to know what the left hand's doing, but together we make sure that we're all on board with the same ultimate goal, which would be to get you to breathe again properly. What I heard you say is that you went to see an ENT and they have their own wheelhouse, they have their own tools, they have their own tests, they have their own. We got to do this. This is it, this is my way, or the highway right I?
21:01 - Hilary Russo (Host)
haven't actually gone to the ENT yet. I have a referral right because I'm like I want to go the right route before somebody starts telling me oh, you need this, this and this. I did consult with one dentist who said you need a CPAP, and I'm like you don't even know what you're talking about.
21:17 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
That's the weekend course.
21:20 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Right, that's the oh, I heard sleep apnea. I'm not a sleep dentist, I don't even deal with this stuff, but I've heard this is the best route to go. I don't want to hear, I've heard. I want to know what is good for me, because it's bio individuality. This is what I've been through. So I'm in this place. Where do I go to the ENT first? Do I go to the pulmonologist first? Do I go to a dentist who deals with, who is specializes in airway and TMJ? You know that's and sleep apnea, which obviously falls under that.
21:52 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
So one of the things you need to be aware of is the American Dental Association does not recognize these as specialties, unfortunately. I think that will change my practice. I have an emphasis in treating sleep apnea, tmj disorders, head, neck, facial pain. So that is one thing that you can be aware of. The second thing is a lot of us who do this have had many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many hours of extra training. It's just not a weekend course.
22:26
I mean, I've been doing this for nearly 20 plus years to this intensity and it's a process I keep learning. I mean, I'm still going through a residency for pediatrics right now and it's a lot that I know, but now I'm learning to fine tune and I'm going. I can deep dive a little bit more for certain things that I have been able to do, because it's same old, same old. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose, as we say in French. The more it changes, the more it's the same. So there's a lot of different things but, like you said, I like that bio individuality. So everybody's different but everybody's the same. It's just you can't use one cookie cutter technique, but we're all humans and that's where it's all connected.
23:10
So we're circling back to how it's all connected. And if you have somebody who understands how it's all connected, that's when they could guide the ENT to say hey, you know what? This is what I suspect I use the word very underlined, bold caps suspect. I suspect, for example, she has a nasal valve collapse. I suspect, for example, she has a deviated septum. I suspect she has sinus issues. I suspect that she has pharyngeal obstruction. Could you please verify for me? Could there be upper airway resistance syndrome? I suspect that she may be having obstructive events. You might even have central apneic events, we don't know. So that's where you get somebody who understands as a dentist. All right, cause we're the best ones, and this is what floors me and I'm just going to put something for hooah, hooah for my team, my team, all right, this is what we do all day long. We're in the mouth. We see this stuff day in, day out.
24:17
What bothers me is that they don't train dentists nowadays to read the signs of obstructive C-papnea and or airway disorders. That's going to change. That's all in the book, by the way. Every single sign you could think of is in the book. But I think that's what needs to be changed. It should be common sense that it's not drill, fill and build, it's actually determine what you see, that it's not normal.
24:43
So I would hear patients tell me entire lives they've had these tore eyes. They look like little mushrooms at the bottom of their jaws or one on the roof of their mouth, on their palate. Or my dentist told me that was normal. No normal for whom? All right, I digress. So, anyhow, what happens is if you have a team conductor, then the dentist who understands this, who is more versed in this knowledge, can go ahead and say okay, then this ENT, could you please help me accomplish X, y, z. If you have a sleep doctor, all right. You don't want to get lost in the rabbit hole of medicine, right, because that's the other thing too. You can very easily get lost in that rabbit hole, all right.
25:29
So, you want to stay with those of us, because your mouth, your head, your neck is this, is our wheelhouse. Ent is air, nose and throat. All right, sleep. They're the physicians. They're the ones that are going to. Yes, they prescribe the CPAP. Yes, they're the ones that are going to diagnose it. But at the end of the day it they're the ones they're going to diagnose it, but we're at the end of the day, it's still the dentist that's going to do the appliance for you.
25:50
one way or the other, it's going to be something in your mouth right right and I prefer to go that route it bugs me that now you have physicians who are doing oral appliances. It's like, okay, you won't let us diagnose something that we deal with, okay, yes, yes, there's the medical, the physical aspect, the insurance part, blah, blah, blah, blah, of sleep apnea. Yes, there's a lot of pathophysiology that needs to be dealt with by a physician. Get that, get that, but don't go make an oral appliance for my patient. You don't know what you're dealing with, you don't know how to make it, you don't know what position to do it and you certainly don't know how to put it into the way they breathe better, and you don't know how to check it and you don't know where you're putting that jaw joint. So, yeah, that that kind of bugs me a lot.
26:33 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Sorry, I think that's part of the reason why now share. This is an open space. If you want to drop an F bomb, you can. I don't mind.
26:41 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
I can say it in French, but I could say it in French.
26:49 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yes, right, you can French your way out of this. So I, my thing is and I've thought this, but from talking to you, from talking to others in the field that even though I've been given referrals, I've been holding off on filling those referrals because I'm like I think that's just a doctor telling me this is what's normal and this is how we normally protocol this. My gut tells me that it's somebody who deals with this face all the time and that moves into the next things like how do you find that sleep dentist? How do you find a dentist who is experienced or emphasizes work in that area and know that you're getting someone who's good and isn't just going to say, hey, we're going to, we'll get you fixed up with an orthodontist and now you're going to get a palate expander or now we're going to do the surgery over? Because that's a fear that I've run into as well as one that I have on my own.
27:43 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
Right, I wouldn't go there yet if I were you. Okay, just stop Whenever you hear surgery again, just let's think this over, all right. So let me give you some of my feedback too. Right, there was a sleep course, all right, and I thought, okay, cool, I'll go ahead and I'll go, I'll support the symptom. Nobody's talking about causes, and that bugs me to high end. And there was a children's neurologist in a very, very prestigious hospital Boston I think it is who said yes, said yes, I mean it's all fine and good. Because they said, oh, don't worry about it, you know. And then she said no, no, no, I think she has a point.
28:34
Yes, so the thing that is that, all right, if you go ahead, you think about all the systems that are shut down because you can't breathe. Right, the order appliance isn't going to fix it, the c-pap is definitely not going to fix it, because what's going to happen is the body's going to acclimatize or get used to that level of band-aiding. And then it's like okay, you know what it is, the little dutch boy with his finger came to mind with a dab. So you put one finger here and then you put one finger here, and then you put one finger here and then you put one finger here and you put one finger and then you're not gonna have enough fingers or toes and then the dam's gonna break. And it's exactly the same concept, because if you go ahead and you the the concept of an oral appliance okay to come back again and I'm showing the picture to mount moderate c, pap. Yeah, it's called a mandibular advancement device, or MAD for short, right, okay, well, what does that do? It brings the lower jaw forward. Why? Because the tongue is attached to the front of the lower jaw. So you bring the lower jaw forward. All right, so that's the mandibular advancement device. Well, how far are you going to be able to break the jaw out of socket? Eventually? No, because if you don't address the root cause, you're going to have inflammation.
29:55
So that airway that's already restricted, be it because of diet, because of environment, because of whatever. You have large tonsils which are supposed to be there as buckets to hold whatever pathogens or whatever bugs that are in the air or that you're eating, or whatever. They're the engines that are holding the foot down, if you will, the soles, whichever. They're the ones that protect you so things don't go to your lungs, but eventually they get overwhelmed, and that's when your airway is so closed up by these massive tonsils. And then again let's take them out. Surgery to remove tonsils. All right, did that too? All right.
30:34
So I know I'm jumping everywhere right now, but I'm trying to go by the anatomy. If you'll follow, there's a process to my reasoning here. So the dentist will say say okay, let's do a manageable advancement device for mild to moderate sleep apnea, but that's not treating the root cause. All right. The sleep doctor will say you need a CPAP because it's severe sleep apnea. But that's not also treating the root cause.
31:05
Because somewhere along the line, if you don't have a nasal what we could call a patent nasal passage or passageway to get air through your nose, all right then. And or if you're doing a CPAP to push air down your mouth which you should be breathing in your mouth anyhow then you're still not getting the air, the quality of air you need. As a sidekick, just so you know, when you breathe through your nose, you actually develop nitric oxide. It's a gas, all right that you develop. You create it. As a human, we create nitric oxide in our sinuses. When you don't nose breathe, you're not getting your nitric oxide, which means that your vessels are getting hotter faster, you age faster. All right, none of that's going to happen with a CPAP and none of that's going to happen with the appliance, because three months down the road there's just so much that you could advancement that you can do. There's just so much titration with a level of pressurization with a CPAP that you can do, and eventually you're back to square one.
32:10
Okay, well then now let's do orthognathic surgery to bring your jaws forward. And then that's when you have another issue, because now you're locked in. So let's tie back that in. With the anatomy, remember I showed you, and for those of you who can't see, the skull is not fixed. There's lots and lots and lots and lots of little sutures. That's why I was saying there's dozens and dozens and dozens of bones, but they're all connected, and the cranium, the housing of the cranium, but there's lots of them underneath, all right, under the skull, all right. So what happens is all these bones actually pulse. That's called the cranial sacral rhythm. All right, that's where cranial sacral therapy would be really good. That's where you unfortunately have issues because you have screws holding your face. Your facial plates are held together, right, so we're trying to go through all the systems and the scenarios here.
33:08
An ideal person who hasn't had surgery can have all these little bones changed. Because they're not fused together. They are not fused together. They are not fused together. What did you hear me say? They're not fused together, they are not fused together. So if anybody says that you cannot expand your palate because you're over nine run, it's not true. I expanded, I've done an arch expansion on an 83 year old all right.
33:41 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I actually had a conversation with a dentist who told me that women they're finding and tell me if what your thought is on this the palate of a woman actually is able to expand for much longer than we originally thought years wise like it, and maybe I'm saying this wrong, but she even had a palate expander in the top and she's in her 50s. So I'm curious, I mean, is that an approach to try? So can I guy it's a human period. Anyone can. Anyone. Okay.
34:11 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
A human can have. Now I don't know if there's going to be a sex differentiation for the progression of the of the treatment. The treatment I don't know, but any human can have their arches expanded, short of having a disorder of one sort or the other, but in general you can have the arches expanding because the bones are not fused. Right, it's not here, it's here. Let's talk about why you can develop a palatal expansion and growth. All right, this is a totally misunderstood concept. All right, remember we talked about the roof of the mouth is the floor of the nose, and this is magnetic. So bear with me, that's why it was all all catawanka earlier on. So in here you have what we call the nasal passages and you have a thing called turbinates, right? So if you look at it, there's little windmills in here. So you have anterior, middle and posterior nasal passages too, and here you have what we call the sinus, the maxillary sinuses. Here you have the frontal sinuses, all right, okay.
35:14
So how arch expansion works? And this is why you do slow. Slow is good what you do. Remember this is magnetic, so it might be a little hard for me to do. You go ahead, you do a little bit. All right, you do a little bit and then you wait, then that goes ahead and creates bone. Then you do a little bit, then it creates bone, you do a little bit and it creates bone and so, slowly but surely, you've created the arch that is wider, because it happens in the middle. All right, if you go too fast, what happens is you end up having extrusion of the teeth, or the flaring of the teeth and or what we call the buckle plate perforations, which is what the orthodontist freaked out about. You're going to flare out the teeth because you're going too fast.
36:07 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Well, how long does something like that take normally? What is that process?
36:11 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
They do what the orthodontist usually do, what they call rapid palatal expansion. Slow is the best thing. Do a little bit grow bone. Do a little bit grow bone. Do a little bit grow bone. Do a little bit grow bone. Guess what happens, unless you have a septal spur which acts like a handcuff to hold that nasal passage, that septum tied up to another bone on the side. If you don't have a septal spur, that deviated septum just lines right down. That's what happened with me and I was in my fifties I was over 55 when I did mine. If you go ahead and you do slowly, you can expand an arch. Now there's a school out there that says let's do it in a month and then we wait six months. I'd say okay. That to me sounds so wrong and this is my humble opinion, for each time I'm giving you anything. These are my humble opinions and what I've learned and what I've read and my interpretation of everything.
37:13
Okay, of course, but if you're going to go ahead and you're going to go like zip and then wait, go ahead and you're going to go like zip and then wait, all right. The big fallacy with that is you zipped and you waited six months and that space, in theory, is supposed to grow bone. Uh-uh, it fills up with collagen. That is why, when you go too fast and kids or whom on whom, no matter what age, if you go too fast, you end up with a ton of relapse. So, slow, a little bit grow bone, a little bit grow bone, a little bit grow bone, a little bit grow bone.
37:49 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Now you have success now, this is just one approach. Right, the palette expansion is just one approach okay, that's the transverse approach.
37:58 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
So if you're doing this in 3d, you have to think your garage right, because you have width, you have depth and then you have length. Well, it's the same thing. This is the width. The transverse effect is the width. All right, now we have the sagittal aspect, which is from the side, so that's where two to for example, if I'm not mistaken that your issues came from, is that if you look at my profile and they said that this part of you was there, but this part of you was too far forward, so I'm going to exaggerate now, like that, right?
38:36 - Hilary Russo (Host)
That's exactly what it was like, right.
38:38 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
It wasn't that this was too far forward. It can be, but in reality it's that this was underdeveloped. So that's the side view, or the sagittal view. Nine times out of 10, if you have an airway issue, it's because you're overclosed, and then you need height, and that's when we can go ahead and do height. Interestingly enough, oral appliances the same one that they advocate to go ahead and do the mandible advancement devices the same thing. There's two things that they do. When they're doing a sleep appliance, what are they? Protraction vertical, but they're doing the protraction with the lower jaw only and vertical. They're putting the special amount of vertical or the height into the appliances.
39:27 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Acrylic Now there's a lot of information that we're sharing with folks. I'm taking in a lot of information. I do want to mention real quick that Dr Stack has a new book that just came out, called Smile. It's all connected whole health through balance. I'm going to put a link on there in the podcast notes, rather to grab that book, because this is really something that was written for the everyday person to understand. It's not like reading a medical guide or anything like that.
39:56
You will be able to go to an upset or an issue that you might be confronted with, learn more about it because, as we were saying before, what gets measured gets managed. But also we have to be our own healthcare advocates and then find the right kind of people to support you, because obviously you can't fix the problem yourself, but you can support yourself in that. And also I know you have a children's book and that's Captain IFBI. I in that. And also I know you have a children's book and that's Captain IFBI. I love that Right encouraging good oral hygiene habits, which, by the way, that ties in with the download that you're offering as well, which is the dental protocol checklist, and I love that. We're going to put all that in the podcast notes so that folks that are tuning in or if they're watching on YouTube because you know you're showing us some fun stuff on visual they'll have the option to either listen to this anywhere we have podcasts and also on YouTube.
40:46
But, on that note, if you feel that this podcast episode with Dr Claire Staggs inspiring you anyway, touches you anyway, if you know anyone who might be confronted with any of these upsets whether it's sleep apnea, whether it is TMJ or any kind of upset that you might be dealing with, the dental side of your life, or even breathing this is something you can pass along to somebody, share it, let them have the knowledge and make a decision where they want to go next, because we definitely are sharing some really good information here and I really appreciate it.
41:18
Dr Sags, I know we're talking a lot about my upset, but I know there are other people out there that are dealing with the sleep issues, the sleep apnea, the breathing, the grinding, the bruxing, and wanting to change the holistic approach to dentistry. You're just a normal person, sweetie. I'm just like everybody else. I know I am, and it's one of the reasons why I do this show, because many of the things that I'm facing or have seen with clients is something I want to talk about so that I can make this a vessel for others to get answers or at least find something that they could take away from this and hopefully make a choice that helps them become a happy and healthy grownup, you know.
42:03 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
So let's talk about the book. This book was written. It's taken me 10 years to get it out here. All right, this book was written for the average lay person. It's a conversation from one mom to all the other moms who have asked me questions.
42:21
All these years I've been practicing. I graduated in 1982. So I've been at this for a long time. I came to this country in 87. So I was not of American training per se, so I have had different training. I'm also very outside the box thinker and I like to ask why? So why do you want me to do it this way? Give me a reason why I should do it that way.
42:47
So the whole idea was to understand that, yes, why are these patients getting better? Why is there cacophony? Why is there not harmony? Why do they have all these issues all the time that they haven't had resolution for and that I have not been able to finger point. That's when I went down my training what's going on? What's going on, what's going on.
43:10
So the book's goal is to go ahead and to change the demand. Because my what? To educate the demand, if you will, because the more people are educated in this is the more they'll understand what's actually going on. It's for you to be your own advocate in your own choices. Just like Hilary at 15 did not know any better or any know what to do or not not to do, her mom or parents didn't know, because they followed their, the advice of their physicians, which is okay, don't get me wrong. You know, but why don't you find out? If you go ahead and you're playing a game of poker, wouldn't it be nice to know your hand instead of playing blind? You know what I mean.
43:58
So this, this book, has the entire deck in it. This is what I'm trying to say. It's written with you for everything, everything that Hilary and I have talked about, and I think one if you have the book, you will see anything about airway, you'll see about joints, you'll see about teeth, you'll see about muscles, you'll see about nerves, how it used to be, how it is and what the connections are structural, chemical, mechanical, functional, emotional, spiritual, because we're all one. And then in the future, where I think dentistry should and could be. But I think and I know that if we change the demand, the supply will have to change, because the more the moms and the dads and all of us understand how this is connected. They're going to have to teach doctors how to connect the dots too. So that was the goal of this book is to change the way dentistry is perceived and experienced in the world and then change the world for a healthier, better place people to be healthy so they don't have to suffer like a Hilary.
45:04 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, I so needed. I wish my parents had this back in the 80s when I had this surgery, even though it was different back then. We've progressed, we've gotten better, we're more knowledgeable, we have more tools available to us and science and approaches, but it's here now and if my what is the saying? Someday your story can be somebody else's survival guide. I use that one a lot. I know that's Brene Brown.
45:26 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
That's a good one, yeah.
45:27 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, and I'm hoping that this next stage of my own journey is much less invasive and more productive. It's finding ways. So having conversations with doctors like yourself, people who practice more of a holistic and whole body approach and aren't really running right to surgeries and appliances and everything that might not be the best plan, you know. It's constructing the plan building the house and realizing what size garage is really going to fit and what kind of cars do you have for that garage.
46:03 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
Right, because there's different appliances too, so there's different arrows in your quiver, because you want to shoot for the bullseye every time, right, and that's that's where I did all that additional training. It's like, okay, okay, so we have a joint issue. Well, well, let's deal with a joint, but then you can't disconnect the tongue and the space that the tongue holds. And then, okay, so now I do tie releases. So, and not everybody's going to practice the way that I practice this.
46:33
This is my passion, though, and you talked about your survival journey. My daughter fell and hit her chin when she was three and a half, and that's where she hit her chin, which automatically put her jaw joints up and back, got her disc displaced. So here I am searching for answers back in 2003, 2004. And that's where I ended up. So, yes, I was doing the chemical aspect, where we were mercury free, we were doing all the nutrition, everything. But then it's like, how do I fix my child, how do I get her to not be in pain too? And so that's where it's like, okay, let's do this, let's figure out how we can make this happen. And so that was my journey to go ahead and to put that together for all the other parents who would have these questions.
47:22 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, and interestingly enough, here you are, a dentist, being confronted with something that you think, oh, I have the answers because I'm a dentist At least it happened to a dentist's daughter and you're looking for the approaches that are going to help her heal and live her best life the best way possible.
47:39 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
So you know, it makes me laugh too. I guess I'm getting very spicy today. I like spicy, dr Staggs Very spicy. So I remember I had this 83,. He's 90-something now, but he was clearly apneic. I mean his lips were blue, all right, his he had no airway, really, really bad. And so I told, I told him you know why don't you do a sleep screening? No, no, no, my doctor blah, blah, blah. So I went ahead and I said okay, ask your doctor to go ahead and send you to lab and have a sleep test. So he goes ahead and he tells his physician that and his physician says what does she know? She's just a dentist, yeah.
48:29 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Aye, aye, aye, aye, aye. I wish we could all just get along and work together. So anyhow, that's my two cents again.
48:38 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
So don't read a book by its cover and look for somebody who understands how it's all connected and there's going to be more of us. There are more of us, it's just you don't know where to find them.
48:49 - Hilary Russo (Host)
So what I want to do real quick in closing, I usually do a game with all of my guests, and what I've been doing is I pull you're going to have a little fun and what I've been doing is I pull you're going to have a little fun. This is what we do here. Not everything's so serious. I'm going to throw out a word, something you said today, and I want you to come back with the first word that comes to mind. Just a quick word association game.
49:08
I already want to say happy. Say happy as much as you want. But if I say the word holistic, what's the first word that comes to mind? Body, jaw, oh God, pain, palate, growth, airway, life, dentist, happy.
49:28 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
Smile, beautiful Happy.
49:30 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Beautiful. Love that. I love that you focus on the word happy. Just be your own healthcare advocate. You know we don't, we don't have to throw out a name. There are a number of things out there that are good and there are a number of things out there that are not so good, and you have to be your own healthcare advocate to make that choice.
49:47 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
And things can work different strokes for different folks. I mean it could be the best thing, anything could be the best thing for anybody. It's just that sometimes, when you don't know any different, you wish that had you known, had I known. Had I known, had I known I wouldn't have done it this way that's kind of where I am.
50:06 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I wish I knew at 15. So I'm hoping that what you shared, I know we'll have more conversations because I'm on a route where I'm going to be looking for approaches uh, because unfortunately we're not in the same area, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't hop a flight to come down to Florida, by the way, no, you still can. I can, I can, but I'm gonna. I know you have a tight schedule, a lot of people to talk to, everybody is. You're in high demand, dr Stagg, and for good reason, and I'm just so grateful to have you here.
50:35 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
I am eternally grateful to you interviewers, because you have platforms that you can spread the word to the world, because you're the ones, basically, that are going to change. I'm just, I'm just flotsam on the ripple of the of the thing you know. I'm just like, hey, go this way, go this way, go this way.
50:55 - Hilary Russo (Host)
We're all in it together as you said, it's all connected, we're all connected. So if we can do anything to help others, that's what we're here for and I'm just so grateful for you. Thank you so much. Thank you too.
51:06 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
And thank you for having me. And so, on a one little note, I was like this is my last little saying in the book, which has lots of little life lessons. My one is that you're not a drop in the ocean, you're the entire ocean in a drop. So blessings, Hilhillary, I love you. Thank you so much.
51:24 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I love you too. Thank you for being part of the ripple.
51:28 - Dr. Claire Stagg (Guest)
Thank you.
51:29 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I know we unpacked a lot, I know there's a lot going on here with Dr Stagg, but for good reason and we are not done. Next, I want you to grab a copy of Dr Stagg's book Smile it's all connected whole health through balance, plus her children's book that she has Captain IFBI, as well as her checklist to download for daily dental protocol. All of this is in the podcast notes and, if anything resonated with you that we shared here on the show, if you were touched, moved and inspired by our conversation, if you have more questions, dr Stagg is actually holding a Q&A online on Wednesday, july 17th, at 7 pm Eastern time. It's a really great chance to connect with her again, maybe follow up on some of the things we talked about, or if you have your own questions, and get to the root of your dental journey no pun intended with that one and you can get some more knowledge, because knowledge is power. Right, what gets measured gets managed. So be your own healthcare advocate.
52:30
First, and you know I share a lot about my havening journey, how it has been a big part of my chronic pain. My TMJ and I want to offer you the opportunity to try Havening and see if it works for you. This is a really wonderful way to overcome fears. If you have a fear of going to the dentist or the doctor or even managing chronic pain, or maybe you just wanted to self-soothe, to self-regulate, for daily self-care, it's a wonderful tool to put in your toolbox and I'd be happy to have a conversation with you and see if it's right for you. A link to connect with me is also in the podcast notes.
53:07
HIListically Speaking is edited by 2MarketMedia with music by Lipo Redding, and I know you tune in week after week because you want answers, you want to find ways to be a happy and healthy grownup, and I'm here for you and I just want you to know that those traumas that you're turning into triumphs, they're happening, they're in motion and I am proud of you. I believe in you, I love you and I will see you soon. Be well.
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When it comes to healing the body and mind, there’s an unspoken language. It requires understanding the deeper signals our bodies send. The language that’s often overlooked. Until now.
On this episode of the HIListically Speaking Podcast, nervous system medicine practitioner, Kardin Rabin, shares his own journey through chronic back pain that left this body worker looking for ways to transcend and transform. What he found were synchronicities that not only opened the door of pain to purpose, but lead him on a journey to help himself and others regulate an often dysregulated nervous system. Discover the Secret Language of the Body with actionable steps to help you Heal through Awareness, Interruption and Redesign. And find out how a chance meeting with Bessel van Der Kolk at a coffee shop changed his life. Plus, an offering of tools and support that puts true healing within reach.
CHAPTERS/KEY MOMENTS
00:00 Intro
6:51 Opioids, Grief and generational pain
11:51 Chronic Pain and Trauma
17:20 Emotions and Pain Relationship
21:10 Exploring Trauma and Healing Through Books
22:35 Bessel van der Kolk in a coffee shop
24:42 The Secret Language of the Body
32:42 HEAL and SOMIA Program
49:49 Serendipitous Encounters
53:44 Rapid Fire Game
59:00 Conversation closing thoughts
01:03:27 Hilary close and information
PREFER TO WATCH THIS EPISODE ON YOUTUBE?
Subscribe https://www.youtube.com/hilaryrussoGrab a copy of “The Secret Language of the Body: Regulate Your Nervous System, Heal Your Body, Free Your Mind”
Hardcover: https://amzn.to/4bUvGiV (Amazon)
Audiobook: https://amzn.to/4ehuYxY (Amazon)
Kindle: https://amzn.to/4b1zWfw (Amazon)Get the Heal Program: Holistic Nervous System Regulation 10 Week Course
https://programs.somiainternational.com/offers/3meCQVyx/checkout
Lifetime Access to HEAL Course
https://programs.somiainternational.com/offers/C2F4tpKE/checkout
OTHER BOOKS MENTIONED
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel van Der Kolk, MD
https://amzn.to/4ccbU28 (Amazon)Healing Back Pain by John Sarnos, MD
https://amzn.to/4bZdK78 (Amazon)
CONNECT WITH KARDEN
https://somiainternational.com
https://www.instagram.com/kardenrabin
https://www.instagram.com/somiainternational
HEALING IN YOUR HANDS. HAVENING WITH HILARY
https://www.hilaryrusso.com/havening
CONNECT WITH HILARY
https://www.instagram.com/hilaryrusso
https://www.youtube.com/hilaryrusso
https://www.facebook.com/hilisticallyspeaking
https://www.tiktok.com/@hilisticallyspeaking
https://www.hilaryrusso.com/podcast
Music by Lipbone Redding https://lipbone.com
TRANSCRIPT
Full transcript at https://www.hilaryrusso.com/podcast
00:05 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
This process of healing trauma, of healing chronic stress, of healing nervous system disorders, absolutely requires a non-verbal approach through the unspoken language of the body.
00:21 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Your nervous system needs you and I wish I knew this Correction correction. I wish I understood this is what I mean when I was struggling with my own chronic pain, when I had my jaw surgery, when I was on the healing journey because, let me tell you, at 15, it was a doozy and every year following that, I just did not have the tools right. And as we get older, we experience more of these snap crackle pops in our body. It happens, it's life right.
00:49
But here's the deal that pain in your body, that trauma that is making you want to run for cover because you don't feel safe. It's actually a signal. It's a signal, it's a call and you're hearing it and yeah, you've done the work. I get it. That's why you check in on this podcast week after week. You've done the work and you're like why am I not healing? Why am I feeling this way? Well, you've come to the right place, because it's all about finding the right support and people that will guide you on that journey, Like my friend, nervous system medicine practitioner, Karden Rabin. What's up, my friend, it is so good to have you here.
01:25 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
Hi Hilary.
01:26 - Hilary Russo (Host)
We talk so much before we press record and every time we have a conversation it's like I feel like we're just two kids in high school hanging out, chilling and just having a good time, because really, I mean, first of all, we get pretty giddy talking about the nervous system together, so we're totally geeking out. But, there's a reason for it. We're here on this planet to do something to help people, right?
01:49 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
Yeah, to just vibe so well with someone who speaks your language and who helps you get it out there.
01:55 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, and you're doing that. You're doing that as co-founder of SOMIA, the HEAL program that you have Now, this new, incredible, unbelievable book that is just paving the way. That's the secret language of the body. Yes, please show that. Regulate your nervous system, heal your body and free your mind. We're going to have a link to that in the podcast notes for all you folks. And look good, golly, miss Molly, I'm so glad you're here because we need you and we need what you're doing. So thanks again for being here.
02:23 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
Thanks for having me.
02:24 - Hilary Russo (Host)
You have your own story. I think a lot of people like to know what brings you to the kind of work that you do, especially when you're dealing with the nervous system, the brain, the mind, anything like that, or just our body in general. And there's such a good story behind you. And listen those of you turning in. Carter and I haven't known each other forever. In fact, we have a newer friendship. But I love that because you align with people. We met at the Heal the Healer event conference two-day event and I was just like, oh my gosh, he's my people and he's going to be yours too. But I want you to share your story so people truly understand how you got into this work.
03:01 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
Yeah, okay, can truly understand how you got into this work. Yeah, okay, can I do it like memento style? Maybe it won't be in like sequential order, but we'll bop around a little bit. Yeah, okay. So I originally thought my story started with my own debilitating chronic back pain, because that is kind of the nice starting place in terms of starting around the age of 22,. I am 39 now.
03:26
I began having bad bouts of low back pain, which was kind of humbling and humiliating for someone who was a very well-trained body worker who was making his living getting other people out of pain, and for the next 10 years or more, maybe more like 12 years I worshipped at the throne of basically structure and function. So if I could just get someone's body aligned the right way and moving the right way, really clean, really perfect, yada, yada, yada either my clients or myself that would solve the pain, because that's how I was taught. That would solve the pain because that's how I was taught. I was taught basically and by the way I'm going to be a real a-hole right here that we're basically some I don't know steampunk robot thing from 1642 that has no brain or software or just some mechanism and as long as it's lubed up and put together rightly, it will work correctly. And it turns out that, although there's some truth to that, it's also bullshit. We're not a mechanism first, we're a nervous system first. We are a human with feelings and emotions and a brain and, moreover and I didn't know this at the time, because this is not what I had been taught the only organ in your body, the only organ in your body responsible for pain at all times, is your brain and your nervous system. That's it. I'll say that again. The only organ in your body at all times that's responsible for whether you have pain or not is your brain and your nervous system. And it makes errors right, like we've all, for example, had something brush our leg and go ow right, and we look down and it was just this, like maybe it was a thorn right, it wasn't a really big deal. There'll be other times where we'll get like burned or something while we're busy doing something and we won't even notice how badly we got burned. We'll see that we have some wound later on, right. Also, people will often be in like athletic events. They'll sprain an ankle. It'll be swollen as heck. They won't even notice it till the evening. The brain is making choices and decisions about pain all the time, and we're going to get a lot more into that, guys.
05:46
But essentially here I was trying to fix things mechanically and functionally for myself and my clients, sometimes being successful and sometimes not. And I went on like this for 10 or 12 years and each time my quote unquote back would go out, I would be bedridden, often for days out. I would be bedridden, often for days. I would have electrical storms of pain in my groin and my abdomen. I would have bilateral shooting pains like ice picks down into my calves, and it was threatening my livelihood, my life. I was no longer wanting to go out and do things, social things. I couldn't go on trips. My entire life started being defined by managing my incessant pain and again, it was not progressing with any of these conventional techniques Osteopathy, chiropractic, acupuncture, body work, you name it. Uh, ayahuasca ceremonies, um and uh. I was.
06:51
This is where we'll go in the kind of memento stuff. I realized that I was marching down the same path towards drugs and surgery that took my mother from me when I was 21. That took my mother from me when I was 21. So my mom had had a back injury in her early 30s and she had gotten a double spinal fusion, which is a type of surgery where they fused L2, l3 and L4 in her back, and but even though she had it repaired, it was still hurting her and the next 20 years of her life was organized around managing this pain. And this was the mid 80s and 90s. And, Hilary, I'll give you three guesses. It begins with O and ends with opioids. What was the standard of care for my mother during that time Opioids.
07:44 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, opioids, I can't even imagine.
07:47 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
My mother was prescribed 12 Percocets a day. That'd kill a horse, folks, it'd kill a horse. Yeah, 12 Percocets a day Went from specialist to specialist, surgeon to surgeon and year after year it was just those opioids, opioids. We're not going to go into my trauma and stuff right now, but growing up with a mother who was managing her own pain and was on 12 percocets a day, that I thought was normal. Like didn't everyone's mom just pop a dozen pills a day? Long story short is that a body can't do that forever, and so my mom died at 54 years old, when I was 21, of basically complications of long-term opioid use. Here I was, 12 years later, having done everything in my power by becoming healthy and a body worker and fit to avoid her fate, and I was marching towards it myself.
08:48 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Our ancestral trauma. I mean, that's something I'm sure you deal with a lot too in the work that you do. But it's so much about us wanting to stop that ancestral trauma and it's a push-pull theory, right, Like we're saying I'm stopping it now, I'm not getting on that track, and we wind up falling into that if we're not too careful, you know, get the wake up call Well it was also total bypass, right.
09:11 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
Yeah, it was no coincidence that my embodied pain, my symptom presentation due to my repression of my stress and trauma and dysregulation presented like my mother's right. So I just want to say here that genes are not everything, folks, when it comes to chronic illness Like yes, they might say you have a congenital or a family predisposition to rheumatoid arthritis or back pain or depression. And it's like yes, and you actually have nervous system modeling from generation to generation to generation. So, like when we talk about nurture versus nature, you know, when a child has chronic pain modeled to him for his entire childhood, then when his symptom presentation comes up, brains are social organs and they're often going to manifest their dysfunction precisely the way they were modeled to. So I got lucky, and the way I got lucky was in the midst of my chronic pain and hypocrisy. I was teaching anatomy and physiology to a yoga teacher training down on long island uh, basically laying on my back with my legs up the wall during every teaching segment because of how much misery I was in.
10:28
And in the home of the owner of the studio there was John Sarno's healing back pain.
10:36
And if your audience has never heard of John Sarno. He was an MD in New York City. He was a pioneer in this field. He really didn't know jack about trauma or modern neuroscience, but he was a great investigator and deductor and what he saw was that he'd have patient after patient come into his office and that the orthopedic and mechanical models or functional models that tried to explain their pain. He was like this is all bullshit and it's inconsistent and what's going on here should not be causing this person's hip or low back to be in such agony, but instead what he consistently saw were personality types, specifically in his case of repression, and type A perfectionism, which led to this consistent presentation of embodied pain. And then he educated his clients about what was going on in their mind body and then sometimes referred them to therapy and they got these miraculous improvements in their pain because this was the guy who said no, what's going on here is with their brain and their emotions, not with some inflammatory response in their low back or herniated disc.
11:51
And so I found, his book found me, and for the first time in five years I had a significant of almost an 80% improvement in my pain from just reading his book.
12:04 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Which book was that?
12:06 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
This was Healing Back Pain by John Sarno.
12:07 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Grab that book, grab your book.
12:09 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
Exactly, and even though this thing was book, the first edition of this one was 1991. And again, we've progressed quite a bit from what John was talking about, because he was looking at this stuff with the lens. He was trained in the 30s, but the point is it's still a valuable book. This book saved my life and initiated me into this entire space of helping people heal chronic pain, chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia, migraines, ibs this constellation, this galaxy of mind-body disorders that have their root in trauma, dysregulated nervous system and something we can talk more about, which is conditioned responses. And I guess there's a lot more to my story. But that's how I got here, hilary.
12:59 - Hilary Russo (Host)
We're glad you're here because I feel like everything we go through and a big part of this podcast is the trauma to triumphs right, and if we're using our triumphs well, we're here to share with others how to take care of themselves. You know it's it's. It's like the your, your upset could be somebody else's survival guide. You know what you went through, so it sucks that we have to go through some of this stuff, but we learn from each other, you know. So your story could be someone else's survival guide and is. And then the work that you're doing is continuing to help other people not just survive but live well.
13:36
And I think, going back to what you said just a few minutes ago, learning that you could be doing all the trauma healing in the world. You can be doing everything to get your symptoms in alignment deal with your IBS, deal with your migraines, autoimmune problems but again, why do you want to deal with it? How do you get unstuck? And I think that's something I would like for us to talk about is like, how do you move beyond managing these things and actually find the healing? Because we hear the word manage a lot. Let's befriend it, let's manage it. People are just like I'm freaking tired of feeling the migraine and the pulsating in the back of my head or my stomach being in knots, and I'm eating all the anti-inflammatory foods out. Okay, it's more than that. So how do we take it to the next level?
14:25 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
Yes, right, because I like to say that we come to this work to repair but we stay with it to transcend Right. So I think we're using very similar language, right.
14:34
So nervous system trauma very similar language, right. So nervous system distress, trauma, chronic stress and nervous system dysregulation. That's like this. Through line between them, they're sort of what make the soil ripe for symptoms ranging from chronic pain to cfs to uh, to gut issues, to autoimmune issues, um, but, like I said, they make it ripe.
14:57
So if your nervous system is basically in survival mode which is what trauma and chronic stress do to it we're all very familiar with when we're stressed out, when we're at our limit, the way we snap right, we like maybe snap at our kids, snap at our spouse, lose it at work. We're all very clear. Most of us can see our behavioral dysregulation. We might not be able to do something about it, but we see it. I am 100% literal here when I say your immune system, your nervous system, your cellular response is doing the same fucking thing in your body. Okay, so when you're not stressed out and the annoying person comes by, you're able to deal with it, but when you're stressed out, you snap at them. When you're stressed out and dysregulated and gluten comes through your belly, you snap because you can't deal with it, Because the entire system is at that point outside its window of tolerance outside of its capacity to absorb more. So what is basically a benign irritant, again, unless you have celiac. But like gluten, like environmental allergens, like dairy, like all these foods your body has been, by the way, become sensitized to and your own fear is driving it. These symptoms that present themselves largely have to do with your physiology responding in a completely dysregulated and hyperbolic way, in the same way that you're behaviorally responding hyperbolic and dysregulated to relations. There is no difference. Your mind, your body, your relationships and your cellular experience don't differentiate folks. So that's number one. That's the first part of what's driving symptoms, and so learning how to recondition your body, your nervous system, your immune system, your pain response system to have more regulated responses to internal stimuli is a parallel but separate skill set than learning how not to explode at your husband or snap at your kids and regulate in real time, relationally.
17:20
I want to say one other thing is that what tends to happen is conditioned responses. So my low back pain actually began again. The gun was kind of loaded by my mother's modeling. But I started CrossFit when I was 25. And I did it because I wanted to get strong and they and I you know CrossFit's freaking hard. I have this background of. I was a sickly asthmatic child and I ended up using shame and self-criticism in my teens to make myself fit because I was so embarrassed and again ashamed of my own weakness. So fitness was already associated with feelings of shame and pushing so hard and so much self-criticism to drive me forward. Now, at 25, I go into CrossFit.
18:14
They subject me to some ridiculously hard and inappropriate workout of deadlifts right, by the way, but this is what everyone needs to understand. I got an injury doing that, but the injury happened in parallel with a huge amount of shame and fear and pressure. The body learns a conditioned response. You think that what you see is when you go back to deadlift a few months later oh, this hurt my back again. Deadlifts hurt my back.
18:48
Actually, what then happens is that any time your body starts to feel intense feelings of shame or intense feelings of pressure, those emotions became part of the conditioned response that create pain symptom.
19:02
So you're looking at activities, but the special sauce of nervous system dysregulation and getting out of symptoms is to look at what emotional state your nervous system is in when you're experiencing symptoms, because it's that emotional state that's become associated with the symptom. So, instead of Pavlov ringing his bell to make the dog salivate, all those dogs might have to do now is feel shame and they'll salivate. So again, instead of the deadlift, making my low back hurt, a situation of having a lot of deadlines and maybe disappointing my boss, and feeling pressure and shame, holy shit, my back is hurting or my migraine started or my gut issue got worse. So I just threw a lot at you, Hilary. But where I'm getting at is that when we're dysregulated, our internal physiology has the same dysregulated responses inside our system as we have relationally outside our system to other people. And, moreover, chronic symptoms are the result of conditioned responses happening between emotional states and symptoms.
20:12 - Hilary Russo (Host)
It's so important for us to know this and I'm glad you went into this. I think you gave a lot of different scenarios and examples If someone's coming to this for the first time and it's like whoa, whoa, whoa information overload. That's why we're here, because your book and I want to get into this again, the book that's been released is the secret language of the body regulate your nervous system, heal your body and free your mind. We're going to actually add that into the listen notes so you can grab it. But also for some of us who have maybe done a little more work maybe we're a little further on and maybe not you might've just heard of another book similar to which is the Body Keeps the Score right. That's Levander Colt's book, who you have a direct relationship with as his body worker, by the way. I mean just working with one of the most famous people that deal with the nervous system and regulation. Can we talk about that a little bit, because I think that's really important, even how that even happened, that synergy right there.
21:10 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
Yeah. So, similarly to how I said, I got really fortunate, really blessed, really lucky to stumble into John Sarno's book right when I was on the precipice of having surgery. That book threw me into learning so much more about the mind, about the body, which took me into repressed emotions, which then eventually took me into trauma and somatic experiencing. Into trauma and somatic experiencing, I start exploring this world of basically how stress and trauma create physiological issues and, of course, I eventually stumble into Bessel's book. I keep all of these really close by.
21:46 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, you got like a library sitting right next to you.
21:49 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
Right there, right there. They're all always here. And so Bessel's book is remarkable, because if you've read it, it has that gift of you being like, oh my God, this explains my suffering.
22:01 - Hilary Russo (Host)
This is me right.
22:02 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
This is me. I see now how my trauma, or my neglect, has created this and that and the science that he brings into it, the understanding that he brings into it into it. The understanding that he brings into it. And he also goes on further to show how, for example, people who have experienced traumas that their own immune system has higher markers for autoimmune processes, right Like trauma has caused that immune system to attack its own body more often.
22:35
It's like it's stitched or connected so many dots and there's something beautiful and special when a book makes you feel seen, and so I read his book and it's part of this collection of books that I'd say Bessel, Peter Levine, who wrote Waking the Tiger, and he's the founder of Somatic Experiencing, Gabor Mate when the Body, body says no, and many other ways. That's stitching together this science and art of what's going on here, of how so many of us are sick from trauma, nervous system dysregulation and then Hilary. It had to be less than six weeks after reading his book. I'm sitting in my local coffee shop, Six Depot, here in West Stockbridge.
23:16
I live in the Berkshires shout out yeah, holla, right, go get some cold brew and this dude walks in and I don't know what made me look up or glance at him or hear his voice and I was like, did Bessel van der Kolk just walk into my coffee shop? And I never do this? And I was so embarrassed but I, like, I went up and fan boyed right and I was like, um, I simply said, you know, Hi. Are you Bessel van der Kolk? And he goes, yes, and I go. Well, I just needed to tell you I recently read your book and it was revelatory and I'm just so grateful to you and for your work. And, uh, you, you know, thank you, and he goes. Oh well, you know, thank you for letting me know. I'm really glad about that. And his wife is next to him and she goes who are you?
24:05
And I go. Oh, I'm Karden and I'm a body worker and I have a clinic here in town and she goes. Well, we've just recently relocated out here to the Berkshires. We've been looking for a new body worker here because they had moved from Boston and I know like what Just happened.
24:26 - Hilary Russo (Host)
And.
24:27 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
I know what it was like, what just happened, who orchestrated this? Am I about to get punked or something Right? And you know, the rest is history. Within a couple weeks they came into the clinic, we hit it off and we're dear friends. I've been seeing Bessel now as a client for five, six years and he's obviously become a dear mentor and he was instrumental in supporting me during the process of writing the Secret Language of the Body and that's how Bessel and I know each other. But also the reason why Bessel was so supportive of this book is that he wrote a book called the Body Keeps the Score that this process of healing trauma, of healing chronic stress, of healing nervous system disorders absolutely requires a nonverbal approach through the unspoken language of the body. And that's why our book is called the Secret Language of the Body.
25:33
Because if you're like, wait, did Karden just say that my emotional state has to do with my low back pain or my migraines or my IBS? What the hell is he talking about? It's like that fish who's in water. You ask a fish how's the water Like? What are you talking about? Right, they don't know they're in water.
25:48
It takes training to get out of your head, out of your endless cognitive loop and actually tune in to the sensations, emotions, experience and information that come from your autonomic nervous system in your body. And that's what we teach people. We teach people to become aware of this universe of activity going on just below their chin. And, as you can become aware of that secret language, it's like being able to. It's like people are speaking Italian around me. Oh my God, I can't believe people are speaking Italian around me. And then, once you can speak it, once you can start hearing it, you're like oh my God, I just learned a couple words of Italian. Now I can ask where the bathroom is, right. Or now I can say you know what's your name, right, right. Or now I can say you know what's your name, right. You can actually start navigating a foreign country when you have the language. Well, you can start navigating, influencing and mastering the foreign language of your body once you start speaking it I love how you put that.
26:48 - Hilary Russo (Host)
That is such a brilliant way of thinking about it that it's it's like, um, emerging into the culture, right. So emerge into the culture of your own body. Emerge into the culture of your own body, right. Learn the language of your body. That's brilliant. That's a really great way of putting it. How does this book differ from Bessel's book? Because Bessel's book is not very layman, it's very scientific and it is such a good book. But how is yours different some years later? But how is yours?
27:15 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
different some years later. Bessel's book is extraordinarily, like I said, relevatory. And then he does review five very powerful treatment approaches that you can try to do with a therapist, like EMDR, internal family systems, neurofeedback. But ultimately the book is not a manual on how you can begin healing yourself. It has changed the course of the world, and again it then refers you to things you could do.
27:47
But for those who want to read that book and like me and probably like you, Hilary, like, instantly hit it, like, how do I start healing this now? Right, that's what our book does. So our book has almost 100 practices in it and the entire manuscript is organized around a process that we call AIR, and the AIR approach stands for awareness, interruption and redesign. Right, you have to become aware of the conversation that's happening in your body. Right, that's the first thing. If you can't hear it, if you don't even know Italian is being spoken around you, you're SOL. All right, now you're listening. Right, but how do you influence? Well, you have to be able to start speaking it and you have to start interrupting it, because your body is a pattern recognition and habit repetition. Pattern recognition and habit repetition machine. It does not change by itself, it just repeats its old, tried and true patterns, even if those patterns are destroying your life and your health. So you have to learn how to interrupt and go. Yo, shut up. You must stop doing this for a minute. Can we have a conversation, please?
29:06
And so our book starts with letting you hear the language. That's number one. Number two is a whole variety of techniques, from top-down cognitive behavioral techniques to bottom-up polyvagal techniques that allow you to interrupt the dysregulated conversation. And then the redesign component is basically even trauma, as sacred and meaningful as it is, is a constellation of shitty habits built on trying to help you survive, and you have to redesign those habits. And so that's the third step is redesign to create new neural pathways, new responses, and so that's the big difference between the body keeps the score and the secret language of the body. The body keeps the score, blows your mind with like the world is round, right, and then the secret language of the body says and this is how you build a sailboat and how to navigate it.
30:01 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I love it and the fact that there are so many different approaches and techniques that you're sharing. And look, before I came into the work of Hhavening
30:09
techniques, I had no idea what it was. I'm like what is this Hhavening thing? It's learning about something new. See if it works for you. There might be 100 ideas in there of what you can do, but choose what works for you. It doesn't mean you have to implement 100 of them. Find the ones that work for you, cherry, pick and choose what works for you, because it's all bio individuality. So, again, we're going to share that book. We'll share them all.
30:33
But I really want to focus on your book because it's now, it's present, it's current, it's new, and with new thoughts come new possibilities, and that's the secret language of the body Regulate your nervous system, heal your body, free your mind. And if you think that this episode will touch, move and inspire somebody and someone's like oh my gosh, not only am I going through this, somebody else is, pay this forward, pass this conversation along, leave a rating review. It lets people know that this episode exists. With Karden, we're going to certainly have more conversations. I do not doubt that Karden and also you are giving away the first module of your online nervous system program HEAL, for free. Hello people, Grab it now.
31:18
That's all I'm saying Grab it now. Is HEAL, an acronym.
31:21 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
No, heal's not an acronym. It's what we want to do. We want to heal folks and you know I wanted to call it CURE. We ended up calling it HEAL. But as you said at the beginning of this program, Hilary, jen and I, we do not have a program built on managing symptoms F that we do not have a program built on managing symptoms f that we have a program built on healing symptoms like gone, bring it, I'm serious bring it like gone, so and that, when and that if and when, because part of healing especially when your nervous system's regulation is not like always being perfect, right, that's not how life works.
31:57
But if you do have a dip and you do like, oh, my low back's coming down or my belly's coming back a little bit, you know exactly what to do. You know exactly why you take that sacred symptom, as we often call it, because it's a messenger saying up, up, up, up up. You are moving into that dysregulated zone again. Maybe you've made some life choices that aren't quite right, maybe survival parts of yourself from the past have reestablished control and the progress you made has been diminished. So your symptoms, not only do they mostly go, they go away, but when they do arise, they are this powerful signal that says, oh course, correct, we're doing the things that we're not supposed to do for ourselves. So yeah, and so it's called Heal Foundations. You can go to somiainternational dot com. That's one place you can find Heal Foundations, also at Karden Rabin, following me on Instagram and going to my link tree.
32:54 - Hilary Russo (Host)
That's where all?
32:54 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
the good stuff is, but you can learn how to dive right into this immediately.
32:59 - Hilary Russo (Host)
We're going to share all of that in the list notes of the podcast because people need to know that they can get the book, they can get the programs, they get the free, free, that course, the first part of the course, just so they can see if this is right for them. Right, but I mean, giving it a shot is better than not doing it at all, right, so we're going to share all of that. I'm curious. Amen, amen to that. So, mia, speaking Italian, the moment you were talking about learning about a different language in the body, it brought me back to when I first asked you how do you say the name of your course?
33:34 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
And you're like, so me like the Italian word, so Mia yeah, like it makes me wanna go into into the song.
33:40
So can we talk about that for a minute, cause we haven't even touched on that yet of the impact of the course, of the HEAL program, and SOMIA is what holds it all together. And SOMIA is an international nervous system and somatics platform that is designed to teach anyone how to master, to really understand, to become intimately connected, to influence and transform their own mind, body and nervous system, and not just through a collection of practices but through a profound understanding and application of principle. Because mastery isn't monkey see monkey do. Mastery isn't just being really good at the vagus techniques or really good at the internal family systems or parts work process. It's beyond that. It's understanding how the system works so that you are so kind of intimately aware that you're like, oh, I'm gonna, I know what. I, I need this right now. Like you were saying, Hilary, I don't need a hundred techniques, this is the one that's appropriate right now. So that''s what Somia exists for to educate the world about through the means of the course and our other offerings.
35:07
And then SOMIA community is called the Healing Collective.
35:11
So inside the course itself we have these absolutely wonderful mentors, and all of our mentors came to our program, came to work with Jen and I when they were bed bound with illness, with a symptom list that was terrifyingly long, from CFS to post-viral syndromes, to ectopic heartbeats, to mast cell activation system.
35:37
These folks were in dire straits and they used nervous system regulation in our program to get their lives back. And, as you know, Hilary, often when you've found something that transforms your life to such a degree, it becomes your calling to pay it forward right, and so our healing collective is held by those mentors, and we have online forums of fellow self healers who are on the path just like you. There are Q&As with the mentors that help you each step of the way through the healing process, through the practices, through mastering the understanding of how you work, and then, of course, jen and I are present as well. So Mia really does want to bring more people together in real life to do this healing process part of your collective and it's not about one collective, it's about the Odyssey right.
36:51 - Hilary Russo (Host)
The Odyssey it is, and I love everything that you're doing. I really feel that you're. This journey and everything that you've been through and you know this, I don't need to tell you this, but it feels good to say it is that everything you've been through has brought you to where you are, so that you can serve others. And the more we can do for ourselves, the more we can help others on their journey. And one other thing you need to have a podcast, and if you don't do a podcast, you need to at least do voiceovers with that voice. I know you've been told that before.
37:18 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
I do. You're stroking my ego with my sisters and my wife would please ask you not to do. The audio book is read by me and Jen, so I read the narrative and the explanatory parts and then Jen reads the practices. It's a really nice duet of I guess baritone and soprano.
37:37
So that's my first foray, so I'll get to podcasting another time, but I was actually just really thinking about your expression, that from trauma to triumph, and so something that I really want to offer for you and all your listeners is that if we move past the nervous system for a second and start simply with the idea of energy, chi, or a term that I like, which is called life force, most folks know now and I hope, if they don't hear this from me that all of your survival patterns, all of your coping responses, all of your trauma responses, are extraordinary efforts by your mind and body, by your nervous system, by your life force to protect you and keep you alive. And it's wildly powerful, like if for a moment you didn't criticize your trauma response and just looked how potent it was. Like, holy shit, look at all of this energy that mobilizes to protect me. You know like it's so powerful it could light up a city. You know, and it feels that way sometimes in your body. Yet when it is stuck, when it's patterned and habitualized by trauma into survival, it is life force that's trapped in a very dark and unhelpful place. And the beauty of this work is that, as you recognize it and you're able to liberate that life force that's in the trauma response and then redesign it, that same volcano of energy that's been deploying for your entire life to keep you protected, safe and surviving. You get to reclaim that life force for triumph, for living, for creativity, for fucking crushing it at life.
39:51
I'm 100% serious about this, that the greatest victory of my healing journey has not been getting out of pain although that's been fucking dope not to be in pain. Dope not to be in pain. It's been the reabsorption and feeling of how vital and bright I can be, how amazing my body can feel, how much love I can feel right, how much joy I can feel. And I just want to. I just want to repeat that, guys, when we say from trauma to triumph, it is about taking that life force and reabsorbing it into beautiful, amazing, profound and delicious aspects of being alive, rather than just surviving. And it's there in you already. It's just doing things that aren't helpful anymore and it's really amazing to transform it. It's already there.
40:45 - Hilary Russo (Host)
And it's possible, it's more than possible. You listen to this episode and suddenly you were going to. It could be the click in your head that you needed to know, oh, almost like when you picked up Bessel's book or John Sonnero's book or any, or somebody's going to pick up your book. It could be that one little aha that you've been waiting for. And don't ignore those signs. That's the thing. It's like. Our body knows, our gut, that whole force inside us knows it. Sometimes it's just we need to catch up with it a little bit. Right inside us knows it. Sometimes it's just we need to catch up with it a little bit right and be like was that was?
41:22
that eagle that you know, like the eagle story that you shared before. Like is this eagle telling me a whole thing about this building that I'm working in? And it was a different message that you got and we talked about that trauma to triumph, trauma to triumph like triumph, trauma to triumph.
41:37
My friends, you explained it so and it's so lovely to have you share it that way and use everything you're doing to kind of well not kind of to actually be in alignment with what this podcast is about but also just the conversation as friends, like I get it and I love it, and I love that we're sharing it. So, once again, we will share everything about the book. We're going to share that course, that free introduction to the course. You know more about SOMIA now and HEAL and everything that Karden is putting out there. Real quick, I do want to ask you one question and then we're going to play a little game real quick. How did you and Jen come?
42:13 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
together. That life is a combination of being at cause and also, if not, trusting, listening to the universe, right? David Goggins is an example of an invincible man at cause, right, which is amazing, but it's a huge amount of work and it's all on you. It's a hard way to live, right? So when I say at cause, we do have to do work, folks, we have to develop ourselves, we have to seize opportunities. When they're there, we can't expect that things fall in our lap, but we also, if, like, things are really in our way making it so hard, maybe there's something to listen there. And also, when things are put into us in a silver platter, maybe there's something to listen there.
42:59
So, although I have done so much work to learn about trauma and somatics and healing the nervous system, it all started in the most random way of John Sarno's book Finding Me on my friend's bookshelf the studio owner's bookshelf, right. So I just want to illustrate that I love the blend of our own efforts moving us forward, but also so beautifully capturing the moments of good fortune of COVID, right, because COVID hit in like March of 2020. Some of you might remember, some of you may have never heard of it For about like six months a hot minute this social media app called Clubhouse took off.
43:53 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Oh God, what happened to Clubhouse People still?
43:54 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
have it Right, like why do you even have an account? Yeah, we're not getting to why it failed, but when it was busting it was Boston. Yeah yeah um, a friend of mine for weeks insisted Karden, you got to get on clubhouse, you got to get on clubhouse and I told him to f off. Over and over and again I was like I don't have the bandwidth to take on another social media platform. I don't even like being on the one I am and he's like no, you got to do it and like you, you know, Hilary, he's like Karden .
44:19
I would pay to make you stop talking, but people love hearing you talk. You need to get on that thing. You're best talking. And I was like, ah fine, so anyway I get on Clubhouse and I end up loving it, I end up loving it.
44:35
Colleague and teacher, charlie Merrill, who's a brilliant physical therapist in this neuroplastic pain space, like of solving pain through the brain, because that's where it's actually caused by he's great Guys. You should look up Charlie Merrill and follow him on Instagram. He and I ran a show on Clubhouse Weekly called Ask the Pain Guys For the short-lived Clubhouse Ask the Pain Guys For the short-lived clubhouse For the short-lived clubhouse. And it was. We loved it. Right, people would come into the clubhouse and we would talk about neuroplastic pain, about conditioned responses, about how the brain's responsible for pain, and we would have people would be able to come on stage and ask questions about how to deal with X, y and Z injury or pain process. And it was great.
45:26
And during this time, jen, who you know, we knew nothing of one another.
45:28
She was in London recovering from a year and a half of being horribly sick and bed bound with chronic fatigue syndrome, pots, mass cell activation syndrome, mitochondrial dysfunction like the entire menu of catastrophic nervous system dysregulation and collapse.
45:48
And she had made about. She was in the midst of healing through various nervous system techniques and she, that same day that I was running the show with charlie, she downloaded the app, hopped on for the first time ever, stumbled into the room of ask the pain guys, listened to our conversation, asked a question. We had a little good exchange on Clubhouse. She signed off, never went back on Clubhouse again, but she sent me a DM through Instagram to follow up on the conversation in Clubhouse and then we hit it off on Instagram. She became a client and then she became my friend and my colleague and my partner and we, this entire movement of Somia, of the HEAL program, of the thousands of people that we've helped, of the secret language of the body. None of this would have happened ever if she and I hadn't collided when we should have never, ever collided in a million years for 30 minutes on Clubhouse.
47:06 - Hilary Russo (Host)
That's crazy, so we have to really say thanks to Clubhouse. It's like being in a bad relationship and you're like, oh, I don't know why that happened. And then you're like, oh wait, that led me to this right.
47:18 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
Exactly Clubhouse. That was the bad relationship that led me to this right. Exactly. Clubhouse, that was the bad relationship Exactly and COVID.
47:23
Thanks for locking us all in home for a year and a half, so that we had to be on this app because we had nothing else to do, right? So, yeah, that's how Jen and I met and we are clearly long-lost siblings. But yeah, that's the magic of that, that's what I'm saying. And then to seize it, to then do it, to go for it once it was there. But, once again, success is a mysterious thing, isn't it?
47:53 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I love that you share that story. It's so inspiring. I mean, especially when you told me that you wrote the book in 100 days. You know, as someone who's sitting here finishing my book and submitting my proposals and stuff, I'm like, oh God, a book is supposed to take me years and I'm a writer, right. But it's all the synergy, it's all the alignment and things, just just trusting that everything will work out, not just writing a book, but just the people that come into your life, the situations. You have, a lot of synergies that have happened in your life and we can manifest to the day as long. Right, Manifesting is great, but I think a lot of it is just releasing, letting go, surrendering, trusting, but also like having a clear idea of like I know I'm here for something more. I know I'm here for something. This shit did not happen for no reason. I say that all the time. I'm like those days when you're in the shit, you're like it's gotta be for something, Gotta be for something it really does.
48:49 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
It really does and I invite you know if you're alive, it means that you also have diamonds in your life, and what that means. And what that means and what I think can be a really nice practice is to to maybe close your eyes. Or, the next time you're in a shower, close your eyes and think about every wildly improbable instance that has led you to where you are, where you are still alive or you're in like. Despite all this hardship, you have this remarkable partner right or a job, and what I want you to look at is those improbable moments of like yeah that wouldn't have happened if I hadn't gone to the coffee shop at that fucking moment of that day.
49:42
Well, in my instance, bessel van der Kolk, freaking, wandered in right. But we all have these moments. Hilary, can you think of the ones you have? Like just the countless like you and I bumping into each other at Joshua's right, like just that how sweet of a thing, you know. And when you start looking at that, like how sweet of a thing, you know, and when you start looking at that there is a kind of haven that wraps itself around your body and your skin. You almost get goosebumps in a good way, where you're like, holy shit, these diamonds. None of them quote unquote should have happened. None of them happened because I made them happen. They happened because life stumbled them into me.
50:25 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Oh God, we are so in alignment. I say that all the time. I don't say that, I say that life is a falling into. We fall into these moments. I love that you say that because it's just. It's amazing how things happen and sometimes we can't explain and we don't need to have answers. Sometimes, not having the actual answer or proof positive is the answer. The answer is just be happy that it's happening right.
50:54 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
Just be happy.
50:57 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I mean, I think about that event that we did Heal the Healer and I know you and I have done many events other than that, but that event was really something special and I do want to give a shout out to Joshua Rosenthal for that, because whether you went through IIN or not, which is the Institute for Integrative Nutrition, you know each other somehow, whether you live in the shires, as you call it. I love that, which I'm looking for real estate, like tomorrow. There's something about that event that just brought a lot of people together and so much synergy with folks, because we're all on a healing journey forever. You know, we're always looking to better ourselves and and just feel better and be better.
51:36 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
That event was was one of those moments, I have to say, for me it really was and and like, like that whole audience was in cindy, like it was so nice to just walk into a place where you're like these are my people, that's what we're here for, everyone wanting to make a contribution, everyone being thirsty for learning more about this.
51:55
And I'd also say, the kind of quantum leap of none of this trauma stuff was really really being talking about what two or even four years ago Right, but it's definitely not five or 10 years ago or this is just the next wave, and I get that and I hear it and there's a lot of bullshit out there the velocity with which this knowledge is circulating and that people are incorporating the nervous system and trauma component into their overall health picture, to add it to the Venn diagram or really, as I like to think about it, it is the background to the entire diagram, like food, fitness, all these other things. They float on top of the nervous system. So it's like let's start dealing with that. It was just so great to see it all clicking so well there, and so I applaud Joshua for putting that together for having us and for just being a leader in the space.
52:52 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, he definitely is that pioneer in that space and it's one of those things that brings people together. So we could talk for hours and I imagine we're going to have many more conversations, but for the benefit of your time and mine and those who are like all right, I need to park my car. I keep going in circles wanting to. I have so many people that say that they're like.
53:14 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
I hope they're doing that, or they're like Jesus. Will this, will this guy stop?
53:19 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Oh no, I do not think that's it. I've had people that are like I actually took the long way to work because I was listening to the podcast. So those are those moments. I love that. So what I want to do with you real quick is play a game. I do this with those on the show on the show, so loosen yourself up. I'm going to throw out a word and some of these words well, all these words are those words that you've said during our conversation.
53:42 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
We're not going to do like a rap battle, are we?
53:44 - Hilary Russo (Host)
We're going to do a rapid fire word association.
53:48 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
I can already feel my freeze response starting, so let's try it.
53:55 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I know a book you can read that might help you with that. All right, here we go. Here we go, all right.
54:03 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
Biohack.
54:06 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Lotus.
54:08 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
Vegas.
54:10 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Helpful.
54:12 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
Somatic.
54:15 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Everything so me, yeah, pasta, everything so me pasta.
54:25 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
I'm sorry had to uh traumatic, healable emotional always two words nervous system everywhere author Two words nervous system.
54:43 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Everywhere. Author Me yeah, you and heal.
54:47 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
Now.
54:50 - Hilary Russo (Host)
You're like a little kid, You're like that's me.
54:57 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
My identity has not caught up to the fact that I wrote a book.
55:01 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Not just wrote a book. Like wrote a book, that's really doing well. That's true, that's true, yeah, and you have a huge publisher behind you. You know not that you have to. Don't want to discourage people that might not have publishers, or self-published, because putting a book out there and putting your knowledge out there is amazing. But let's just give credit where credit is due.
55:24 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
I'm going to age myself. I appreciate that I'm going to age myself, though, so I got interviewed by the BBC a week or so ago about the book and it was a guy named Gavin.
55:36
Uh, Ggavin Ramjaun had me on, you know, and he and he starts the interview out by like, he's like we've got a nervous system medicine practitioner, Karden Rabin, here, but that's like how does it feel to be flying up the book charts, right? And I was like, ah, I feel like I'm on like some Casey Kasem interview, you know, with the top 100, you know and I was like hallucinating.
55:57
I'm like, is this my life? Is this, like you know? And so, yeah, you know, the book cracked the. The book has been released in the UK and it comes out in the United States a couple weeks later, so there's a slight difference. So we cracked the UK Amazon top 100 for all books. So that means like we're up against war and peace and the Hunger Games and the Hungry, hungry Caterpillar and that was really awesome. But yeah, like I said, I you're right, I've written this book, but like I still don't, I still haven't caught up to the fact that I've written it.
56:27 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, I think that's just you staying empathetic and compassionate and being the true person you are, like you can be a best selling author. And being the true person you are, like you can be a best-selling author, an Academy Award winning actor, you know whatever. Like give someone a title, that's fine, but when the day is done, you come into this earth naked and you leave it naked, so-.
56:46 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
You sure do.
56:47 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Right. So it's appreciating every day.
56:50 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
If your people are wondering, like whether this is me now, this is me in the course this is me now.
57:02 - Hilary Russo (Host)
This is me in the course. This is me. If you're in a live thing, I don't really shape, shift too much. I'm this guy, I love that. I love that. So is it just a course, or do you?
57:07 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
still take clients one-on-one, I mean, besides Bessel, right, right. So my private practice is currently closed to new clients. I do not have an open one-to-one practice at this time. Closed to new clients. I do not have an open one-to-one practice at this time. What we do do is we're continuing to train more and more mentors to be able to support the student body, and then the course is taught in one of two ways.
57:27
There's the self-study version, which is what most people do and it's what you have to start with. But the self-study version, again, is supported by that healing collective. And then Jen and I, a couple times a year, will run 12-week intensives where for those who have completed the HEAL program, it's an intimate group and it's live with Jen and I every week for 12 weeks. It's such a remarkable experience. Oh, I imagine it's remarkable because of what being in relationship does folks Like? If you know anything about trauma healing or the polyvagal system, that human connection, the ventral, vagal response, being in community as human mammals we find safeties in others. We can make so much progress healing on our own, but when we become a pod and when we're swimming in the same direction, 90% of the healing that happens in that happens because of the absolutely beautiful and authentic sharing, vulnerability and triumph of the fellow participants, and Jen and I just have to literally support and scaffold the unfolding of that process and it just blows my mind every time.
58:50 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I love it. I am so excited to share this because I can think of a handful of people well, handful. I can think of way more than that that would benefit from this, but people who are close to me that I know would benefit from it. Quite frankly, I'm curious.
59:04 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
Hey, you might have to join us for that party. Hill yeah Right.
59:08 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I love it. I love everything about it. Thank you so much for being here, sharing your gift, sharing just the knowledge you have, but just your own story, because it is going to help somebody else many people, I imagine. But do you have any final thoughts you'd like to share with those tuning in?
59:24 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
I feel like you've had a lot of them, but Well, we went back to you know when the word game. I warmed up as we went through.
59:31 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I want to say two things, I think.
59:33 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
When you said biohack, I said lotus, we're gonna, we're gonna delete that. Because when you said biohack, what I really wanted to say was, um, and the reason why I wanted to say is that we do not heal ourselves through a collection of biohacks. Remember what I said earlier, that you know, mastery is a profound understanding and application of principles. And if we bring it back to the language analogy of speaking Italian, you can think of biohacks as, like you know about like nine or 10 phrases, and they can be really useful. Where's the bathroom? How do I get to the piazza? You know my name, is what's your name and my age, and with like with 10 or so biohacks or pieces of language, you can, you can, you're doing okay, right, you can correct things, you can get around. But it is a thousand miles away from true fluency and I would really invite your listeners to take that into heart, that the goal is exquisite, intimate, painful, transcendent, triumphant fluency with your humanity, with your being, with your nervous system, with your history, with your emotions, with all of it, and through that fluency you can understand it with a huge amount of empathy. But then you can also begin to lead it, you can carry the conversation, you can direct it, you can run for office, you can start a business right, like what you're capable of. When you can speak instead of just say a couple phrases. It's the biggest difference in the world.
01:01:20
So stop looking for just more practices. Folks. Find folks like Hilary and I and the other people who are teaching you how to see the forest, not just the trees right, that's the kind of training that you're looking for. And the last thing I think you said in that lightning round was now right. That's the kind of training that you're looking for. And the last thing I think you said in that lightning round was now right. You said heal and I said now, like, timing comes for all of us, but if you can just remember, I said it was a combination of being at cause and having the universe stumble into you. Like, right now, something might be stumbling into you and my invitation for you is to say yes and try it and do it.
01:02:02 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yes, Standing in the tension of that moment is like right before the change happens. You know you're like you're, you're aware you're in the A. It's the awareness. If you weren't aware you'd'd be. Like hands are flailing and you're doing whatever right. You're in it, you feel it, it's happening.
01:02:21 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
That's had I not gone up had I not fanboyed on vessel van right. So again the universe brought it into me. You best will walk into the cafe. But had I given into my fear and my embarrassment and not fanboy, I would not have one of the most important relationships in my entire life. Oh, I felt that so say yes, y'all, like in those moments when the universe has has thrown you an easy pass. Fucking catch it and run with it.
01:02:55 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, get out of the ego way, that fear of being rejected. It's really what it is.
01:03:01 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
It's so much easier than working hard for everything all the time.
01:03:04 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Right, I don't have to work for a living.
01:03:09 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
So those are my final thoughts, Hilary, and next time we talk, I think it would be fun to talk about, instead of recovering from pain. It'd be really cool to maybe talk about relationships, because that's, I think, another massive space. Oh, I'm all over it.
01:03:23 - Hilary Russo (Host)
All right yeah.
01:03:24 - Karden Rabin (Guest)
We'll do that next time, all right so?
01:03:27 - Hilary Russo (Host)
On that note, thank you so much for saying yes to this conversation and the many conversations we've had just in a short amount of time, because I'm just glad you said yes conversation, and the many conversations we've had just in a short amount of time because, uh, I'm just glad you said yes. I'm just gonna leave it at that. I'm going to close on that. Now, that is how you close a conversation. You have been handed a huge gift by Karden, so I do not want you to waste a moment. Take advantage of it as soon as possible. I've not only shared how you can connect with him, I'm also sharing a few special links so that you can take advantage of Heal program and offer from me to you. Just for tuning in to the HIListically Speaking podcast, you can even tell him that Hilary sent you plus grab a copy of that book. Do not waste any time.
01:04:21
The Secret Language of the Body. Regulate your nervous system, heal your body, free your mind. All of that is in the listen notes of this episode. You're also going to find information on how to connect with me and learn more about how you can put healing in your own hands with Hhavening techniques Because, like I said, like we talked about during this conversation. It's about finding what works for you. You have lots of options, loads of possibilities and plenty of support. If this conversation touched, moved and inspired you in any way, consider paying it forward. Pass it along to somebody else who might find value in it and listen, share your thoughts in a rating or review, wherever you're tuning in, because that conversation and those thoughts, those thoughtful responses will help others find this episode and heal hHolistically.
01:05:12
HIListically Speaking is edited by 2Market Media, with music by Lipone Redding and supported by you. So thank you. On that note, just a reminder that these traumas in our lives, there are triumphs just waiting to be celebrated. You have the tools to heal, you have the support. I love you, I believe in you and I will see you soon. Be well.
-
Melissa Hiemann had her ‘awakening’ back in 2014 when she realized after years of avoiding her traumas through addictions and instant gratification, she was repeating bad behaviors and avoiding the root cause of her pain.
Nearly failing out of school and focusing on limited beliefs, she realized something had to give.
That wake-up call lead her on a new path of discovery and inner healing. Now, through her Centre for Healing, she’s helping others find their future peace today, by raising consciousness through manifesting and being trauma-informed.
On this episode of HIListically Speaking, we get to the root of what’s holding you back and weighing you down, discover different energetic hygiene approaches and pave the way for abundant living.
DOWNLOAD AND TUNE IN TO THIS CONVERSATION ON ANY PODCAST PLATFORM OR YOUTUBE!
https://www.hilaryrusso.com/podcast
https://www.youtube.com/hilaryrusso
CHAPTERS/KEY MOMENTS
00:00 Intro and Your Future Peace
01:47 Root Cause of Addictions and instant gratification
09:15 Unexpected Journey and Finding Purpose
11:38 Maintaining Energetic Hygiene for Practitioners
14:10 Importance of Professionalism and Self-Care
19:13 Setting Boundaries and Self-Care in Work
22:35 Importance of Trauma-Informed Certification
30:00 Rapid Fire Game
32:58 Healing Generational Trauma and Self-Regulation
36:24 Trauma-Informed Healing Resources CONNECT WITH MELISSA
https://www.facebook.com/groups/thecentreforhealing
https://www.instagram.com/thecentreforhealing/
https://www.youtube.com/@thecentreforhealing
https://www.linkedin.com/in/melissahiemann/
GRAB HER BOOK ON AMAZON!Natural High: Secrets to Overcoming Instant Gratification and Finding Inner Peace https://amzn.to/3yPTwxR
CENTER FOR HEALING COURSES (Use code HILARY for a 10% discount on any course)
https://www.thecentreforhealing.com/a/43957/58GLXrgy
PUT THE HEALING IN YOUR HANDS WITH HAVENING https://www.hilaryrusso.com/havening
CONNECT WITH HILARY
https://www.instagram.com/hilaryrusso
https://www.youtube.com/hilaryrusso
https://www.facebook.com/hilisticallyspeaking
https://www.tiktok.com/@hilisticallyspeaking
https://www.hilaryrusso.com/podcastMusic by Lipbone Redding https://lipbone.com/
TRANSCRIPT00:07 - Melissa Hiemann (Guest)
A lot of people. They reach out for things outside of themselves to try and feel okay, to try and feel safe in their body, and so those can be instant things like addictions, like I had shopping addictions. I had heroin, marijuana, alcohol, cigarettes, anything I could do in the moment to not feel how I was feeling. I was just jumping to it because I didn't know how to escape how I was feeling in the moment and so when I had those things I felt good for a little bit. But what happens is you ruin your future peace.
00:40 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Let's get to the root cause Now. I know that that term is thrown around a lot right, root cause? And in the world of functional medicine and holistic medicine, it's about going beyond the diagnosis or the surface, or really getting to the heart of things, the soul of what is holding you back and weighing you down. One of the things I love about HIListically Speaking is having guests come on the show who are experts in their field, but they share their own journeys, right. They're getting to their own root cause, their soul, and turning their own traumas into triumphs.
01:17
Melissa Hiemann she has been on her own awakening journey and she started that back in 2014. And, melissa, you nearly failed out of school. You struggled with addictions addictions and I use that with an S on the end and from those traumas you learned how to heal your limiting beliefs and now, as a therapist, you help others do that every day. It is such a pleasure to have you here and being really open to talk about the root cause and how we can change those traumas into triumphs. Thanks for being here.
01:48
Thank you so much for having me on. It's a pleasure. I want to really talk about the root cause of things, because we haven't covered that topic, but also the fact that you have dealt with numerous addictions, not just one. I've had people come on the show talking about one thing, but it goes back to this book that you wrote called Natural High Secrets to Overcoming Instant Gratification and then Finding the Inner Peace. So can we go there? First, because I think in this world of instant gratification, which we get that from the internet, we get that from different addictions and the internet can be one of them. Now we get that from different addictions and the internet can be one of them. Now, how are you working with people in this area from your own experiences?
02:30 - Melissa Hiemann (Guest)
Yeah, sure. So yeah, from my own experience of overcoming my addictions and going on my own healing journey, as you mentioned, I came to realize I wasn't willing to sit in my body with how I was feeling. And so an outcome of that and a symptom of that, is that either we jump up into our head, we try and intellectualize everything and also we try to numb out how we're feeling, because essentially we're all trying to feel good, right, we're all trying to feel peaceful and happy and like, obviously. And so when we don't feel like that and if we don't have the tools for several root cause reasons, if we don't have the tools to soothe ourselves, if we don't have the tools to feel our emotions, we don't feel safe to feel our emotions, then a lot of people they reach out for things outside of themselves to try and feel okay, to try and feel safe in their body, and so those can be instant things like addictions.
03:28
Like I had shopping addictions. I had heroin, marijuana, alcohol, cigarettes, anything I could do in the moment to not feel how I was feeling. I was just jumping to it because I didn't know how to escape how I was feeling in the moment. And so when I had those things. I felt good for a little bit, you know, but what happens is you ruin your future peace because I've just spent all my money, I've just I've got to hang over the next day, I've taken away from my future self feeling okay, because I wanted that instant gratification, I wanted to feel better now, and I didn't know, I didn't have the tools to know how to do that, and so that took me on a huge journey of then discovering how to heal, to feel my emotions, to be able to process them, to be able to not project it onto everyone else. And then, yeah, this whole journey took me through a lot of modalities and it took me to wanting to help others and give this really valuable information to others that are struggling or they have family members that are struggling.
04:36 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, you mentioned. You didn't want it to ruin your future peace. That hit me. You didn't want it to ruin your future peace. That hit me. You didn't want it to ruin your future peace. So there was a wake up call, apparently. What was that about?
04:51 - Melissa Hiemann (Guest)
Oh my gosh. So the wake up call I was sitting in my little apartment on the beach and I had my sports car and I had my corporate job and you know, externally my life looked amazing. But in, in reality, I was in that little apartment because I had left my abusive relationship. I had been with someone else to help myself leave that relationship because I was so insecure. And I remember the day that I moved, the other guy was like I can't do this.
05:19
And I remember sitting there like so depressed and so sad, looking out at the water, thinking maybe I'm the lowest common denominator here, like why does this keep happening? You know, and I had no awareness I had, I was just, you know, blaming everyone else. I was like the whim of everyone else and I was like I think I need to get help, like and at that point maybe I had seen a counselor once. I was all about just like being positive, making sure I look good on the outside and kind of just pushing, sucking it up and pushing it through and and, and you know, part of that was I was probably looking at the water, drinking or whatever I was doing, and I that's the first time I reached out for for help, because I was like again I, that I probably have a part in this more than I realize and, and maybe you know, and I well, that's the wake up call, right?
06:12 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I mean part of that is the awareness. The first step to any change is awareness and to be able to sit back and be like perhaps this is something that I need to take responsibility for and stop blaming everything outside of self.
06:26 - Melissa Hiemann (Guest)
Exactly that. Yeah, that was huge yeah.
06:30 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, and maybe, maybe blame isn't the right word because then we're just shaming ourselves, but just taking accountability and responsibility that you want to have a better future right as you. Better future peace. Yeah that what's not working. Maybe I'm part of not seeing what could be working, so how did that lead you to the work that you're doing now, and especially the root cause therapy method?
06:54 - Melissa Hiemann (Guest)
Yeah, so yeah, this would be like 2013,. 2014 I'm talking about. So it was quite a while ago, but I did. I, I, a friend, had um come over and he was like you should contact this other guy. He's like into this life coaching or something. Now I'm like sure I'll message him and have a chat, you know.
07:12
Anyway, I organized a session and it wasn't just a chat, it was a deeply transformational regression, inner child healing experience, and I walked out just never the same person again, just becoming conscious of my subconscious, of my unconscious, of these patterns that were playing out in the background. Because, honestly, I thought yesterday and the past was just in the past I didn't realize it was still playing out in the now. I had no awareness of that. And so when I walked out of that session, I was like wow. And I remember two weeks later he's like I'm running a course, I'm training people in it, and at the time I was in a sales job because I knew I wanted a business. I just didn't know what kind. I'm like I need to learn sales. So I remember doing that course and halfway through it hit me like a lightning bolt. I don't know for those of you that you just found your purpose in the middle of something. It literally felt like a lightning bolt went through my body, yes, and I was like this is what I'm meant to be doing. I'm meant to be helping people get out of their own way.
08:17
And I remember just healing like kind of one limiting belief, this fear of failure and I had been working on a business in the background like a jewelry business for a year and in healing that one belief, within two weeks I had finished designing the product, got it in production, started like selling it like so quickly and I'm like, oh my gosh, people just get in their own way. I was just getting in my own way, like I need to help people get out of their own way as well, like I, honestly, I grew up thinking that I was dumb and I grew up thinking that I couldn't learn like other people and there was something wrong with me. But actually I was just disassociated because I didn't feel safe growing up. There was quite a bit of trauma and I took on the beliefs that people told me.
08:56
So starting to shift them, starting to feel my emotions, starting to become aware of my behaviors, that I was doing to try and escape how I was feeling Like it just opened up a whole new world for me. So I became certified as soon as I could and I just did not stop studying. All of a sudden I was a bookworm. All of a sudden I cut out half the people in my life and I'm just like surrounded by books and videos and like I'm like, give me more, you know. And that's kind of where it started, yeah.
09:27 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, it's amazing how we can look back on where we were five years ago, 10 years ago, and think I never thought in a million years I would be doing this. You know, I think about that myself because my background being a journalist. But the traumas of being in journalism especially when you're dealing with stories from 9-11 or just traumatic conversations that moved me into this work or just stuff that we've dealt with in life, and it's kind of like a pop, right. You're like what am I doing? How can I leave this world better? Right. And then you're like I never thought I'd be doing this. But if you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans.
10:04 - Melissa Hiemann (Guest)
I'd be doing this, but if you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans. Yes, yeah, totally, and I think that when you start to do any kind of therapy or like healing well, you do tend to expand outside of you just being in the survival, like looking after yourself, and as you expand, you're like I want to serve people. Now, like I'm, I have this huge yearning to like heal people and help as many people as I can, and I think it's beautiful and I think it's amazing.
10:29
whatever industry that we're in, you can just tell when people are really passionate and they're lit up and they're like on this, on this path, you know and so, yeah, I just, I just love, but I particularly love our space as well, because I'm, I know, like until I'm 100 I'll probably still find things to heal, but I'm forever expanding to be of service, you know, and then in turn, then we can pass that wisdom on to the people around us and onto our clients and the people that we're mentoring, and it's just a beautiful ripple effect.
11:03 - Hilary Russo (Host)
And we don't own it. That's the thing Like everything that we effect and we don't own it. That's the thing Like everything that we're learning we don't own. So even if you're developing a course or a certification, or you're sharing a modality or an approach, or you're helping somebody else heal their traumas or upsets, we're not healing them, we're just guiding them, we're supporting them, but we don't own the process. You know, and we see a lot of people out there coaching and doing their thing, and there are many that are doing for the right reasons, and then there are some that are doing it for reasons that are not so beneficial of the person they are serving. So how do you differentiate yourself? To make sure people know I'm coming from an authentic space yourself, to make sure?
11:44 - Melissa Hiemann (Guest)
people know I'm coming from an authentic space. Yeah, definitely. So that's something that I found out of my training. I kind of went into a session going OK, obviously I want to make money and things like that. But I was like I've been given a bunch of tools what is the protocol here to actually run a really effective session? So my clients are getting so much out of it.
12:04
Because my first few sessions I was like I look back and I think that could have gone so much better, like obviously we're always learning and things like that. But I had to put it, structure it together myself, and so one of like a part of my mission is to help as many people that are healers and therapists to do what they love full time, and a part of that was to go what did I actually need when I got training to run the best sessions that I can? So my clients are walking away. They know they got something out of it, because this work can be really intangible, like I think I feel better, you know, and that can be like talk therapy, like oh, I think I feel better, I think I feel worse, I don't know. I'm kind of walking around on the surface, and so what I did was I created this structure for not only for clients but for the practitioners to feel really confident, to be able to run a really holistic session looking at the whole person and then to be able to find the root cause through this structure and then.
13:00
So my path is like international business freight, like it was completely different, but what I got out of that was that I was really good at in terms of collecting data and looking at data changes. So what I did was I was like, as a practitioner and as a client, for you to see the exact changes that have happened over each session. So we call it the testing sheet and we can actually see, with the client's feedback, including muscle testing, including just how they're feeling and and, somatically, what's coming up for them. We can see and manage the priorities of what we can work on in each session and what has actually been shifted, like we actually have data from each session and so we can actually show the client or tell the client and actually prioritize what's best to work on. What have we already worked through? Um, and so that's kind of like the, the heart of root cause therapy.
13:51
It's like making it a much more tangible process and looking at someone on all levels of consciousness, their conscious mind their subconscious, their physical body, their mental body, um, and so yeah, it's a, it's that, and that's not including the actual healing part of it, the actual going to the root cause. But that's such an important piece because I really want more professionalism in the space. I wanted people to know that they were safe with their practitioner. So, like in my training there's a lot of training around like that, how to manage your clients properly like I've had coaching sessions where they're just like here's a calendar link, like there's no intake form, there's no like proper structure, like oh yeah, like they might email you after, like no, I want this to be a really safe container where we know I'm with someone that knows what they're doing. We teach the method, but we also teach the business side of that to be really ethical and really give that credibility.
14:50 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I love that we're touching on this area of how to serve the practitioner and the coach. I mean, I was just telling you when we were before we pressed record that I just finished doing a two-day conference where I was emcee and also presenting to healers, to healers, coaches, practitioners, because we're really the first ones to not think about taking care of ourselves. And one of the areas that I focus on a lot is secondary traumatic stress, because we think it's burnout, we think we're just overwhelmed and rarely, when you're doing trauma work especially, you don't realize that you might be just like a sponge. You're taking in some of what you're hearing, some of what another person's trauma is that primary duress right. So we need more conversations like this, especially for practitioners, caregivers, coaches, therapists, doctors that yes, you are in service to others, but how beautiful is it that you are taking care of yourself so that you can show up 100% for someone else and stop putting yourself on the back burner, you know.
15:52 - Melissa Hiemann (Guest)
Absolutely, I mean so.
15:54
My partner and I in 2016 opened an outpatient mental health and addiction center, so we were not only dealing and helping people with their addictions, but also we would include their their main family members or their partner, whoever was mainly their person and so there was a lot of that and we were working 12 hour days and I remember this older lady that, um, we had like infranutrition things and she was like you guys need to get massages, you guys need to slow down, like you can't, like people need you, and at the time I was like, whatever, I was like I'm fine, and we were just pushing through and working crazy hours and managing all the staff and like, obviously like dealing with inquiries and hearing all the stories and doing the healing. So we're like, yeah, like you said, like secondary trauma, witnessing with the client the traumas that they went through, like in some of them, you know, obviously horrific, and like kind of processing that and doing our own work at the same time. And yeah, and we did, we got to the point after like four and a half years where, like after I had a child as well, after I had a baby, that changed my priority of like looking after myself and having time. And that's why we kind of shifted over to teaching online courses, not only being able to help more people around the world, but to actually look after ourselves a little bit. Because it was, it was, yeah, I was getting to the point of burnout and I was getting sick a lot and I was dysregulated, like sometimes I was getting really angry and really frustrated and and that's like not the approach that I want to have.
17:30
I'm the center for healing, like we're meant to be baseball and I'm like we need to practice what we preach here. So I so resonate with that and, yeah, part of like the training for our students is that energetic hygiene, you know, energetically, like before a session, grounding yourself, being able to hold space for them, an empathetic space, but not trying to take on what's coming up and letting the client process it and, like you said, being a guide. And then, after a session, like little things, like just getting doing your notes, just like getting it out, so you're not thinking about it for days after, having your own little ritual to help clear the space. And it might be also little things like increasing your prices a little bit so you have less clients. So there's so many little elements that you can do to find that that work-life balance because the work is is so important like the world needs us. So, yeah, like you said, we do need to make sure that our cup is full so then we don't have empathy, burnout and things like that so important.
18:31 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Energetic hygiene. Energetic hygiene, that is a great way of putting it. So let's talk about some of those energetic hygiene approaches that we can do for those who are in the caregiving practitioner doctors, therapists, you know what, anyone because it doesn't matter what your, what field you're in, you're always going to be hearing other people's stuff right, whether you do it for a living or not. So let's go through maybe like five things people can do. You just mentioned a couple. You mentioned saying yes to that massage, doing your notes right away, doing a little self care right, doing the notes right away rather than waiting. Name a couple others. I'm curious.
19:13 - Melissa Hiemann (Guest)
Yeah, so other things would be well, like I said, just increasing your prices a little bit, just so that, and not feeling bad about that. I mean some people like to do a sliding scale, which means sometimes you charge certain demographics one price, but I found that I just I had to do that to honor my time and that allowed me to have like a couple of hours in the day to chill and watch Netflix or just that's self-care, to chill and watch Netflix or just that's self-care.
19:40
That is self-care especially for those of us that, like we're always like I need you to be doing something with work, like no, you can be a normal person as well and just like binge a little bit, and that's fine. You know, on your favorite show and the other things I would say is that and this is a word that gets thrown around so much with boundaries but just getting really clear on what works for you in terms of maybe there's only certain times of the day where you have the most energy, like the best energy. So for some people it might be 4pm onwards, so that's fine. Make your availability 4pm onwards, and why I say boundaries? Because some of us go. Your availability 4p onwards. And why I say boundaries? Because some of us go.
20:23
Well, I just need to be available when clients need me, so I'm going to jump on it anytime, even if it doesn't suit my I know, like when I have good energy and not good energy, and so honoring that and holding to that and not being scared that they're not going to book with you or not being scared that you're not going to make enough money because of that. If you really like, own that and go. No, these are. I only work Thursday, friday and Saturday um for consultations. Whatever industry that you're in, try your best to make it suit how you work, because otherwise you will get burnt out and you will get resentful and I think that does come through um with whatever you're doing to the clients as well. So that's super important. And I did touch on ritual a little bit and it depends how woo-woo you are, how spiritual you are. But you know I've got stuff like this space clearing spray. You know that I just spray around me. I like to smell some essential oil to kind of ground me.
21:21
Sometimes I'm like I just need to go outside and just be near a tree or something like I just and just grounding grounding and I would say the number one thing and we do offer supervision in our courses is that have someone that you can talk to about your sessions, to decompress and just to debrief. We were really lucky at the Healing Center because all our officers were near each other like, oh my God, I want to tell you about the session, blah, blah, blah. We were able to debrief, but it's not so easy, especially with client confidentiality. You don't want to just like tell your partner about your whole client's session. So having someone that, whether they're a co-worker, like someone that is doing the same method as you.
22:04
It could be someone that is your trainer or someone that you've hired as a mentor, someone that you can just go blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, like this or I got triggered, or you know cause. We're going to get triggered as well, you know, in sessions, and I think if you've got someone to bounce that off, that's so important for your own mental health and to get it out.
22:26 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Everything you said is like, so on point, because you know we want to serve, we want to help, we want to help people heal, and rarely are we thinking about what we can do.
22:35
But also having that one person who's in a similar field, that understands, rather than unloading it on your partner or unloading it on you know a friend who's kind of like I don't know what you're talking about, and not breaking confidentiality, but doing it within the walls of your, your therapeutic center, or if you work at a place or you just know, like I have a mentor that I go to, I have my other practitioners, and having that just to be like, how do you feel about this? You need that, we all need that, you know. So that's really important. I think those are really good tips, especially when we're doing trauma work, and I want to talk to you briefly about that, because you do offer a trauma informed certification and there are a lot of certifications out there. So what makes your trauma-informed certification different from the copious other ones that are out there, the myriad of courses that call you trauma-informed?
23:34 - Melissa Hiemann (Guest)
Yeah, sure. So originally, as I was watching the industry change and a lot of coaches coming into the industry and myself just having the awareness of blending therapy and coaching, I'm like I have the sense that a lot of people are being held space for, but I feel like with coaching, there's not much awareness of trauma or reactions of trauma that people are having or when a client is having a trauma response, and, as a coach, often people are trying to push them through that, which can cause them to shut down or get depressed or become burnt out. And so, as I watch the industry rapidly grow, I said to my partner and another trainer that we have on, like you guys need to make a trauma-informed certificate, like for these coaches, like it's super important. So they, they did it, they create, they recorded it and everything and we started selling it and I just I just had this feeling I'm like it's not. It was a very affordable price and everything. I'm like it's not, it's not reaching enough people, it's not, and it's not reaching enough people, it's not.
24:45
And and we're doing quite well with our other courses. I know you guys put a lot of effort into this and it's an incredible course, but do you mind making it free. And they were like what? And I'm like, trust me, trust me, trust me. They're like, okay, I'm like we need to make a positive ripple effect in the industry. And so they were like, okay, like they're just trusting me again, and it absolutely blew up. So to date, I think about 70,000 people have enrolled in this course and literally because I see the comments every day, so in our courses you can do comments under each lesson and we're there and we're answering questions and things like that, and the testimonial is like this is the best course on being trauma-informed in the world. I've done a psychology degree. This is the best education that I've ever had.
25:31
This is, and so people taking it that are either managers, parents, teachers, so it's not just for coaches, it's for anyone that is holding space to other people in any capacity, and so many people go through it for themselves as well, and so the main kind of points that are in there that people get out of it is understanding the nervous system, understanding the reactions of the nervous system, understanding how to hold space for someone by regulating yourself, to be able to hold a safe space for whoever you're holding the space for, and to recognize when someone is having a trauma response and how to navigate that and how to help them around that.
26:13
And I think you know one of my old friends she was and I'm talking 15 years ago became a school teacher and she would like complain about some kid that had ADHD and she would be quite negative about it and be like, oh, I kind of would have a go at them, see if they do this course they would have a huge understanding of oh, this is actually the reaction that they're having because of what they've been through. And these are the things that I can do to help this student to feel safer, to learn and to hold and to be able to understand. Okay, what can we adjust to make it a safer experience for them?
26:48
So they're not having these behavioral reactions. But it comes to anyone really like why do we have these behavioral reactions? What do they actually mean? You know, and yeah, so.
27:00 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Well, I think it's amazing that you're offering it for free and I just want to let folks know that I'm going to have that link in the notes of this podcast for Melissa's certification. This is a trauma informed certification or even the other short, free educational courses that you do offer. We'll have that all in the podcast notes for the Center for Healing. That's so generous and honestly to be able to give that gift to people even if they don't need the certification.
27:29
The knowledge is really helpful, whether you are in the field of therapy or coaching, like you said, teachers I know plenty of lawyers and people that are in the legal that are hearing the stories from the narcissist, and I mean the battle back and forth is traumatic in a lot of ways and there are a lot of lawyers that are getting sort of certifications in narcissism, trauma, informed approaches, just so they know how to NLP, you know learning the language of what's coming at you. So all of this is so helpful. I mean more education is great as long as it's authentic and comes with some kind of a backing.
28:10 - Melissa Hiemann (Guest)
So absolutely and the the way that the that Matt and Ryan teacher is. It's so digestible, like you don't have to have the technical knowledge of, like the coaching industry or NLP or as a therapist, like it's so or science exactly. It's like, oh my gosh, like everything that I've learned has clicked in.
28:31
You know, and um, and, and people enjoy watching it and I'm just so I'm so grateful for Matt and Ryan that they were like yes, make this a free, because I truly believe if everyone becomes trauma informed, we are going to have a better world, because we're going to realize I'm raging and I'm angry, because actually I'm feeling scared and dysregulated about this because potentially I'm getting triggered because of this.
28:56
So, rather than attacking someone all of a sudden, we've had this huge awareness about ourselves and we're able to calm down and then have a conversation with someone that we need to have a conversation with, rather than attacking each other, abusing each other, cutting each other off, like just basic human behavior, like having that understanding that all of us I don't want to say all of us have experienced extreme trauma, but all of us have. I don't want to say all of us have experienced extreme trauma, but all of us have probably had painful experiences of probably getting triggered now by each other and by circumstances. That, yeah, if we're to have that awareness, understanding ourselves and others, it's going to be a much more peaceful, communicative society. I really believe that. Yes absolutely.
29:41 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I couldn't agree more. And it's a question of learning how to respond instead of react. You know, because that that scared, that scared creature that we have in the little amygdala up there, little Amy, that gets scared and doesn't feel safe if she's gonna, if she's backed against a corner, it's all hell breaks loose. You know, yeah, so it's definitely understanding that that's great, it's such a beautiful offering and just everything that you're doing. So, before we actually wrap things up because I know you've got things that you need to do, you got a full day ahead of you in Australia I would love to play a little game with you, real quick, sure, and what I'm going to do is I'm going to throw out a word and you just come back with the first word that comes to mind. Let's get things going with the get you get you moving on your day ahead. You'll thank thank me for it later. All right, one word, here we go. Transformational Recalcerapy Okay, okay. Healing.
30:44
In a child Peace neutrality practitioner space holder boundaries self-care addiction self-soothing energetic hygiene.
31:11 - Melissa Hiemann (Guest)
I know it's two words, but I just really love that I'm going to say the word you already said, but boundaries Okay.
31:20 - Hilary Russo (Host)
And self-care, and that's one word, because it's hyphenated.
31:25 - Melissa Hiemann (Guest)
Yes, self-love Beliefs.
31:33 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Generalizations Good.
31:34 - Melissa Hiemann (Guest)
Gratification, I want to say painful emotions, which is the opposite of gratification. But I feel like it's okay. We're trying to gratify ourselves so we don't feel the painful emotions.
31:47 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Now I'm going to give you one more word. I got to keep going. One more Root cause one more root cause.
31:56 - Melissa Hiemann (Guest)
The word that comes to mind is dna, just because I've had a lot of clients with generational trauma at the moment.
32:03 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, that's a. That's a big topic yeah we didn't even really get into that. I know you mentioned it a little bit going back to the inner child, but that generational trauma and holding space for ourselves with the ancestral trauma, what would you say to those tuning in about being able to process that and be open to the idea of generational trauma?
32:29 - Melissa Hiemann (Guest)
so you can look at the cherry blossom study. There's a study that's been done on how generational trauma can get passed down, not only by us hearing stories that have happened to our ancestors, but actually we live out the symptoms in our dna. So some people will have symptoms and behaviors that they don't understand why they're having them and it doesn't make sense their reactions that they're having to the life that they've had, and sometimes the trauma has been passed down generationally. And so I have taken people into regression and I myself have gone into regression where I was in my grandmother, where she couldn't feed her kids and my mom was only little and I felt how she felt and I saw the rice on the table and that's all she had for them. This is in Sri Lanka, in a village rice on the table and that's all she had for them. This is in Sri Lanka, in a village, and I and and the behaviors that I had previous to understanding that was like I would hate to go to a restaurant.
33:22
I always looked at the food and I always used to think there's not enough food. I can't eat this restaurant food. They're wasting so much food. There's not enough food. I couldn't go to a supermarket. I had all these weird behaviors that were unexplainable, but once I went to that and healed that, that shifted all of that. Now I'm happy to go to a restaurant and I believe there's an abundance of food and so, yes, it's very those of us that are willing to do the work.
33:49 - Hilary Russo (Host)
We're often healing generations of trauma from both sides our mother and father's ancestry you know, so it's yeah I remember when I first went through trauma informed, my trauma, informed certification I really opened up and I was like and I don't know where it came from it, just like it was, like I just vomited all of this generational trauma and the feeling that I had in my body that I had not felt before.
34:14
And I remember calling my mom after saying it ends now, like it ends today. And I had already been doing this work for a while, but something about something hit me hard with that program where I went really deep into the generational trauma and I was like, oh no, like it ends, it ends today, it ends here, with this lineage, right here. And that's really an awareness, it's stepping into the tension of the unknown and realizing you have a couple of choices. You can go forward, right, you can retreat and nothing changes. If nothing changes, you can try to go around it without dealing with it or try to go over it, but you'll get kicked back. So it's really just like diving through it, you know.
34:56 - Melissa Hiemann (Guest)
A hundred percent yeah.
34:59 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Wow, Good stuff. Melissa, thank you so much for being here and I want to give you a moment because we got off track after the. Well, we got on a good track, but we changed gears after the rapid fire game.
35:23 - Melissa Hiemann (Guest)
I'm curious do you have any final words that you'd like to share with those tuning in? Yeah, I'd just like to say that, if anything, start to feel into your body, more into your feelings, and stop intellectualizing them so much. And it's safe to feel your negative emotions and they do go if you fully feel them and breathe into them. They do go after 60 to 90 seconds and I think that would save so many people's lives just by doing that. Just by doing that, your relationships, your health, the way you look after yourself. That's a really great first step to take.
35:50 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, like, is it a bad day or is it just a bad five minutes? Right, we tend to just like catastrophize everything to make it like life is horrible, and it's like is life horrible or is it really just like in this moment, right now, you're really ticked off, right yeah, but that's great. Just give yourself a chance to self-regulate. You know we have that power and it's beautiful when we know we have it, because then we're just more empowered.
36:15 - Melissa Hiemann (Guest)
Definitely. Thanks so much. Thank you, it's been my honor to be on. Thank you so much.
36:23 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Might as well. All right, I want you to take advantage of Melissa's trauma-informed certification and courses. She's offering a lot of free resources that you can put in your toolbox that brain candy jar that you got a lot of free resources that you can put in your toolbox that brain candy jar that you got. I'll add that in the podcast notes of this episode, along with her book Natural High Secrets to Overcoming Instant Gratification and Finding Inner Peace, plus more on her root cause therapy and the Center for Healing, and we talked a lot about ways that you can be kind to your mind during this conversation, finding ways to heal the healer in you. One way that you can do that is with Havening techniques. If you want to learn more about Havening and how it can change your brain, I dropped a link in the podcast notes as well on ways to connect with me. Remember to give this podcast and this episode a little love. Just by leaving a rating or review. You are making a difference.
37:14
Wherever you are tuning in, we are on all podcast platforms, including Apple, Spotify, and even YouTube. I love hearing from you week after week and I appreciate all your shares HIListically Speaking is edited 2Market Media with music by Lipbone Redding and supported by you. So thank you. I appreciate you every day. I know there is a lot of podcasts that are out there. You're choosing to join me every week. It is a gift to have you here and I am truly grateful. I love you, I believe in you and I will see you next week.
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Before she was designing holistic spaces, Gala Magriñá was living large in the fashion industry. But no amount of partying and rubbing elbows with celebs created a happy space, inside or out. That is until she realized that investing in your personal space is investing in yourself.
On this episode of the HIListically Speaking Podcast, discover how holistic interior design goes beyond the aesthetics and considers the mind, body, and spirit approach that's necessary to create mindful spaces that support inner healing and personal growth.
You'll walk away with a new perspective of what it means to create a respite that flows and flourishes personally and professionally.
Download and listen to this conversation on any podcast platform. https://pod.link/hilisticallyspeaking
Grab The Badass books series Gala and Hilary talked about!
You Are a Badass: How to Stop Doubting Your Greatness and Start Living an Awesome Life, Jen Sincero https://amzn.to/3KjV99l (Amazon)
Get all four books!
You Are a Badass Series 4 Books Collection Set by Jen Sincero (You Are a Badass, You Are a Badass at Making Money, You Are a Badass Every Day & Badass Habits, Jen Sincero https://amzn.to/4dRn3qS (Amazon)
CHAPTERS/KEY MOMENTS
00:00 Intro
00:27 What does holistic mean to you?
03:24 Gala’s story: From fashion to functional living
08:05 Design and Well-Being Connection
13:31 Navigating Stressful Transitions in Design
11:02 Personalized Wellness Practices
18:15 Creating Sanctuary-Like Spaces
24:51 Beyond Spaces
26:55 Interior Design Methodology
32:48 Rapid Fire Game
34:52. Investing in your space is investing in yourself
35:06 Hilary Close
CONNECT WITH GALA
https://www.instagram.com/galamagrinadesign https://www.linkedin.com/in/galamagrina/
GALA'S DESIGN COURSE (launching in Sept 2024) https://galamagrinadesign.com/beyond-spaces-course/
PUT THE HEALING IN YOUR HANDS WITH HAVENING https://www.hilaryrusso.com/haveningGRAB MY DISCOUNT ON HOLISTIC HEALTH COURSES AT IIN https://sldr.page.link/4byd
CONNECT WITH HILARY
https://www.instagram.com/hilaryrusso
https://www.youtube.com/hilaryrusso
https://www.facebook.com/hilisticallyspeaking
https://www.tiktok.com/@hilisticallyspeaking
https://www.hilaryrusso.com/podcastMusic by Lipbone Redding https://lipbone.com/
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Grief wrapped its cold hands around my heart with the loss of my calico kitty, Miss Eliza Doolittle. But in sharing my story on episode 151, I discovered I wasn’t alone and others had a tail of their own to tell about the power of pet companionship. On this episode of HIListically Speaking, I passed the microphone over to our listeners who share gratitude moments for the fur babies who left a paw print on their hearts. Whether they're purring beside us or frolicking beyond the Rainbow Bridge, we honor the laughter and love they bring into our lives, as we recount stories of the profound bonds formed between humans and their animal companions and heal in community.
CHAPTERS/KEY MOMENTS
00:00 Intro
00:08 Healing Through Community
03:04 Juile and Champ
04:28 Bree and Moe
05:24 Amy and Bella
06:31 TC and Charlotte
07:38 Brooke and Lady
8:48 Kristin and Angie
10:18 Beverly and Coco
11:24. Hilary’s closing thoughts on pet loss and love
JOIN ME FOR THE NEXT HAVENING HAPPY HOUR
https://www.hilaryrusso.com/events
DOWNLOAD THE HUG IT OUT FIVE DAY CHALLENGE
https://www.hilaryrusso.com/5daychallenge
CONNECT WITH HILARY
https://www.instagram.com/hilaryrusso
https://www.youtube.com/hilaryrusso
https://www.facebook.com/hilisticallyspeaking
https://www.tiktok.com/@hilisticallyspeaking
https://www.hilaryrusso.com/podcast
Music by Lipbone Redding https://lipbone.com/
TRANSCRIPT
Full transcript available on https://www.hilaryrusso.com/podcast
00:08 - Hilary Russo (Host)
The power of community is amazing, isn't it? It helps us connect, it helps us grow, it helps us learn and it helps us heal. Recently I lost my beautiful calico kitty, Miss Eliza Doolittle. Those of you who watch this podcast know that she sits right behind me on this very chair. Maybe you've seen her in commercials or in videos and if you know me personally, you've probably had a chance to sit with her for a while right here in my home. And one of the ways I found healing, after close to 19 years with her by my side, was to share her story right here HIListically Speaking, and what I learned from living with her for close to two decades. To me it was therapeutic to share with you. It felt right, as raw as it was, as real as it was and as recent as it was. It was necessary and important for my healing journey.
01:09
What happened after I dropped episode 151 was an outpouring of HIListically Speaking listeners from listeners and fans and friends and family and strangers. I received gifts and cards and words of encouragement and kindness and stories, so many stories, your stories, and I thought what better way to share and heal than in community? After all, that's what this podcast is all about. That's what HIListically Speaking is all about those empowering conversations of trauma to triumph through health, healing and humor. Basically what it takes to be a happy and healthy grownup, because even in loss there is laughter at some point in time, don't you think it comes. It might take a while, but it's there.
02:10
So this episode is about you and your stories. Pets that you have loved, that have made a difference in your life. Some have crossed over the Rainbow Bridge already and maybe they're hanging out with Eliza. Others showed up just at the right time and are still bringing you happiness and joy and, I hope, for a very long time. I asked you to press record and share your stories and your pictures so that we can honor those fur babies in our lives. And what came back is what you're about to hear on this episode, and it is truly inspiring and amazing. When we become pet parents, we know our time with them is short. It is likely that we will outlive them, and we know that there will be heartbreak. It's inevitable. But to love and to be loved is the real gift.
03:04 - Julie (Caller)
Hi, this is Julie Marty-Pearson from Bakersfield, California, and I am here to share my story about my childhood dog, champ. I got Champ as a puppy when I was about 12 years old. At the time I was dealing with some difficult health issues and I ended up missing most of my 7th grade year. Champ became my best friend. He was my little buddy. Seeing most of my 7th grade year, champ became my best friend. He was my little buddy. He was there with me through all the tough days when I wasn't feeling well, when I wasn't able to see my friends and go to events and fun things like I wanted to, and Champ was there for me.
03:37
All the way through college I lived with my parents to save money, and the day I left for grad school I had to say goodbye, even though I knew he'd be taken care of by my parents. I knew I was going to miss him. Little did I know he had snuck a little surprise in one of my boxes for me. Cut to the next day in my new apartment, unpacking all of my boxes In the middle of my books, in one box I found Champ's tennis ball. He had dropped it in the box for me and I packed it away without knowing, so that I would always have a piece of him with me. Champ passed away about six months after that. It's like he knew he'd done his job and he was okay to leave, and I still miss him every single day.
04:28 - Bree (Caller)
I want to honor my dear sweet Moe, who just left us. In the last few weeks he wasn't a fan of everyone but he definitely loved his mama and he provided so much comfort in our bedtime snuggles, I know, when I just wasn't feeling right or was just having a day or a moment, I could retreat to my room and lay in my bed and wherever he was in the room he would just pop up and lay next to me, usually near my head. It was just kind of like a comfort, like knowing he was there for me. You know, no words needed to be exchanged and I just felt his little body vibrating with purrs and and it was sweet to know that somebody was there with me. So, moving forward, it will be a change and adjustment on how to find that comfort somewhere else, but I am grateful for the 18 years he provided me that snuggle and that love.
05:24 - Amy (Host)
Hi, my name is Amy. I'm the host of the Grounded in Maine podcast and I just wanted to talk about my dog, Bella, who was everything to me. She was nine pounds, she was a Pomeranian, she loved everybody and she loved everything. She was the only pet I've ever had that loved going to the vet. She just loved anyone that would make a big deal of her and she just was the best thing ever. Her last year she was diagnosed with congestive heart failure and a collapsed trachea and she was having seizures. Oh, that was a hard year. She completely broke me when she passed away. Like I said no more dogs, I don't want to hurt like that again. And then it was the beginning of a vacation, actually, and so I took that week off and I didn't talk to anybody. I could not say the words without falling apart, crying, so I just messaged them through Facebook and that was it. And that's why I was saying, Hilary, I'm impressed that you're able to talk about that, because I still get teary and it's been six years.
06:31 - TC (Caller)
Charlotte York McPuppy Newman. Let me be her human mom for 16 years on this earth and it's a privilege that I will never get over. I met her when she was nine weeks old and it was an instant bond and an instant love, and it was so powerful she traveled with me across the country. I mean, if dogs could have frequent flyer miles or hotel points, she would have been platinum status everywhere.
06:52
Planes, trains, automobiles. But it was more than just the physical journeys. It was the emotional journeys. She went on with me. She saw me on the highest days when we were dancing in the kitchen, and she saw me on the lowest days when she knew just to cuddle up around me in bed because I couldn't do much more for her when she transitioned to the other side. It was one of the hardest events, the hardest times of my life, but it was so precious to get to hold her as she took her last breath. I was her mama and she was my baby, Though I will always have a Charlotte-shaped hole in my life. I see her signs everywhere Butterflies, dogs that stare at me in the eye for no reason, and I am so grateful that I got to be Miss Charlotte's mom.
07:38 - Brooke (Caller)
Hi everyone. Two years ago I adopted a five-year-old Chiwini. Her name is Lady. She's 12 pounds and has had lots of trauma in her life. She attached to me quickly and wants to go everywhere with me all the time, which is not always possible.
07:52
Well, years ago I had a post-traumatic stress disorder diagnosis due to my upbringing and it resurfaced recently. I'll get a dump of adrenaline and a debilitating fear for no immediate threat. It makes life difficult and I started thinking between the trauma of my dog and the trauma of mine, maybe I could make this into a positive thing. So I called a dog trainer and they came over and evaluated her. She has what it takes to be a PTSD service dog. So for 120 hours we need to train. She is halfway through that and, absolutely amazing, my little dog responds to me so well and calms me. I calm her. It's kind of this leaning on each other situation, but we're making each other's lives better and with every day she learns something new, as do I. Our lives are calmer and happier because we're together all the time. So I just wanted to share that. Thank you so much.
08:48 - Kristin (Caller)
My name's Kristen. I want to share this story about a dog I once had named Augie, who I bought from a puppy mill and on a whim one day and told myself that I was saving him from that horrible place. Augie was a beautiful black lab. At the time I was in an on-again, off-again relationship with a man I would marry and divorce in less than a year. On one of our hiatuses I secretly bought Augie because the man I loved hated dogs and was afraid of them, and I prayed that Augie would keep him away. Augie gave me a run for my money and he had not only massive amounts of energy but massive amounts of anxiety, and I'm an ICU nurse and a mom and I make a lot of hard decisions, but this was one of the hardest I've ever made.
09:29
I decided to find Augie a new home, because not only did he not have good quality of life in our home, we didn't either Rehomed him. I found a man, a friend of my dad's, named Billy, who was like a lab whisperer. Augie snapped and he snarled at Billy and Billy stood there and he didn't flinch and a little while later Augie went, hopped in his truck and went to live with Billy I still get pictures of Augie from time to time. He's living his best life ever. He got the love and life that he deserved, and I ended up writing a book about my healing journey, which is called Heal the Intensive Care Review. You know I wanted Augie to save me, but I learned that the only one that could save me was me and that I had the power to do it.
10:18 - Beverly (Caller)
Hi, I'm Beverly. I'm 83 years old and I've been a pet owner most of my life and I love my pets to bits. Recently I lost my husband and I've been very, very depressed. He was the light of my life and, as a result, it caused me to want to have company in one form or another and I recently I adopted a dog, a little chihuahua, and he has been the light of my life. His name is Coco and I've never in my life as much as I've loved all my animals. I've never loved an animal like this. Perhaps my need caused me to love greater, I don't know, but he has made a major difference in my life. Having Coco in my life has been a godsend and, although I still miss my husband, coco is a wonderful distraction and completes my life.
11:24 - Hilary Russo (Host)
What an incredible collection of stories from childhood to current day. Our pets really do make a difference in our lives, and I am so grateful to everyone who took the time to share and, more importantly, took the time to love. Whether or not you pressed record on this very episode. If you are tuning in right now, I know this is reaching you when it needs to, and if this episode touched, moved and inspired you in any way, I would love to hear from you. I'd love to know what you think, share your thoughtful responses by leaving a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify Podcasts or YouTube or wherever your headphones take you. I'd love to read what you have to share. So download this episode, make a difference, pay it forward. Somebody else you might know could use this right now, and I imagine those who are part of this episode will love to hear your thoughts too.
12:19
On that note, if you've experienced the loss of a pet, I hope in time you open your heart again to love again. And if that is part of the journey, you know now, know that you're chosen and know that you were chosen or, better yet, you chose each other. What a gift, what a gift to know that. Thank you again for being here. Thank you again for one of your choices being that you tune in week after week. I love you for that and I'll see you next week. Be well.
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We have a saying in the world of integrative nutrition. If it’s made by people in white coats, you are likely going to see people in white coats. In other words, your food could be keeping you sick. But Doctor of Social Sciences, Nicolette Richer is on a mission to change that for millions of people by 2030. On this episode of the HIListically Speaking Podcast, we take a deep dive into the healing potential of whole foods as Dr. Richer shares her insights on dismantling systemic barriers to wellness, particularly for BIPOC women. Learn about the pitfalls of the ketogenic diet and other trendy plans, and be inspired by stories of empowerment and recovery through eating from the earth. This episode is not only rich with actionable knowledge but also a call to action for those tuning in to embrace scientific literacy and health education for a healthier, more informed society. It’s time to eat real to heal on the HIListically Speaking Podcast.
Full Transcript https://www.hilaryrusso.com/podcast
CHAPTERS/KEY MOMENTS
00:00 Intro
00:08 Food as Medicine for Healthful Living
03:25 Addressing Health Disparities
10:24 Holistic Healing Empowerment
14:10 The Dangers of the Keto Diet
16:02 Media Misinformation
19:33 Health Coaches and clients
27:02 Nutrition, Healing, and Wellness Journey
29:00 Dr. Richer’s shift from government to nutrition
31:45 Rapid Fire Game
32:55 Reversing Chronic Disease and Detoxing
34:00 Hilary’s closing thoughts and how to connect
CONNECT WITH DR. NICOLETTE RICHER
Eat Real to Heal Cookbook: Using Nutrient-Dense Foods for Happiness and Longevity https://amzn.to/4blFWAG (Amazon)
Eat Real to Heal: Using Food As Medicine to Reverse Chronic Diseases from Diabetes, Arthritis, Cancer and More https://amzn.to/4bnnFCZ (Amazon)https://www.instagram.com/nicolettericher/
https://www.facebook.com/richerhealthconsulting/
https://www.youtube.com/@eatrealtoheal
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/eat-real-to-heal-podcast/id1442998357
JOIN THE REAL TO HEAL PROGRAM https://www.richerhealth.ca/eat-real-to-heal-course
PUT THE HEALING IN YOUR HANDS WITH HAVENING
https://www.hilaryrusso.com/havening
GRAB MY DISCOUNT ON COURSES ON INTEGRATIVE NUTRITION AT IIN
https://sldr.page.link/4byd
CONNECT WITH HILARY
https://www.instagram.com/hilaryrusso
https://www.youtube.com/hilaryrusso
https://www.facebook.com/hilisticallyspeaking
https://www.tiktok.com/@hilisticallyspeaking
https://www.hilaryrusso.com/podcast
Music by Lipbone Redding https://lipbone.com/
*******
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Full Transcript https://www.hilaryrusso.com/podcast)
00:08 - Dr. Nicolette Richer (Guest)
Individuals who can afford to buy food at Whole Foods, but they still choose to buy processed refined food. I've been working with these individuals for a long time. I've, quite frankly, become a little bit exhausted because we do have so much information there's too much information out there, in fact but it's interesting. I've decided to really focus on BIPOC women, and that is an area that I know I'll be focusing on probably for the next half of my life, the next 50 years, and it's the area with some of the biggest challenges, because we're still facing racism in this area. We're still facing those economic gaps as well.
00:43 - Hilary Russo (Host)
All right, my friends, this is not the first time we talked about this, but imagine being able to reverse the chronic diseases in your life, the health issues that you have, with small changes and I mean really small changes that can make a difference. Like I said, this isn't the first time we talked about this. Holistic living and integrative nutrition is really a big part of that. If you can reverse 97% of the chronic diseases out there with whole food eating, with different kinds of approaches to taking care of your body, mind and spirit holistically, whole body approach, wouldn't you want to have the answers? And that is exactly why I have Dr Nicolette Richer here. She is a doctor of social sciences and she is on a mission to teach 22 million people using food as medicine by a deadline, by the way, 2030. Dr Nicolette, it is so great to have you here. Thank you so much for being on HIListically Speaking.
01:39 - Dr. Nicolette Richer (Guest)
Yeah, and thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be here and share this information.
01:43 - Hilary Russo (Host)
So I was chit-chatting with you before we pressed record about. You are the first doctor of social sciences I've actually had on this podcast. We're, you know well into 150 plus podcast episodes here. Being that this podcast is about holistic health well-being, turning those traumas into triumphs in our life. I've realized from the different kinds of doctors I've had on the show many in functional medicine and integrative medicine that doctors do not go to medical school and take nutritional courses. That's kind of an extracurricular and I do want to start out there. So how is being a social science doctor different?
02:19 - Dr. Nicolette Richer (Guest)
Yeah. So I was actually on the path to med school and all of our friends and our customers who ate at our plant-based whole food restaurants told me don't go to med school if I want to teach people how to reverse their chronic diseases. So I wrote my MCATs, I passed my MCAT, I was applying for med school and I really thought that was the path, that was the way I could help the most amount of people. And they were like Nikki, you're not going to be able to help people in seven and a half minute. You know practitioner patient appointments. And so they're the ones who actually the medical doctors talked me out of going to med school. And they said work with people around behavior change that's what's important around education around nutrition. And they also point blank said I'd lose my license if I was prescribing nutrition to patients who had heart disease and diabetes and cancer, etc. Etc. That's what a lot of people don't realize is they can't prescribe a specific diet as a doctor because that's not considered evidence-based medicine, even though we have thousands of studies to show that plant-based whole food eating is literally the answer to reversing 97% of all chronic diseases.
03:25
So, being a social scientist, I get to be on the side of understanding what makes a person tick, what makes them actually engage in the behaviors to reverse a chronic disease. What are the barriers in society that prevent them from being able to reverse their disease? Because it's never just a person has a disease and they want to reverse it. No, there's economic factors, there's geographic factors, there's political policies that are in place that prevent people from accessing food, particularly if you are Black, indigenous or a person of color, and a lot of people don't know that. So it's not just a simple have a disease, choose to reverse your disease. That's not how it works. There's financial inequities that are in place, there's racism within the medical system that prevent people from getting the proper lab test done, etc. Etc. So, being a social scientist, I'm actually able to look at the systems that are in place and the systems that need to be changed that would allow somebody to even engage in the behaviors of reversing their chronic disease in the first place.
04:22 - Hilary Russo (Host)
And that's a big difference. That's a really big difference from what you originally went to school for, like you said, but was this something that you identified with because of your own health concerns as well?
04:33 - Dr. Nicolette Richer (Guest)
Good question and the answer is no, but a lot of people. That's. Number one question I get asked is how I got into this work. I was working in government actually creating policy for environmental policy, so I was in environmental toxicology and screening and you know wastewater management etc. Etc.
04:51
And so in doing that work, at the same time my best friend's dad was diagnosed with stage four cancer. He was 72 years old at the time and he had metastasized to his bones. He was not given chemo surgery or radiation as a treatment option at all and they just sent him home to die. So instead he had heard about metabolic nutrition and detoxification years and years and years before. So he went back and started researching, investigating, asking lots of questions, and he immediately changed his behavior, his lifestyle. He stopped eating processed food, stopped eating pizza and burgers and fries and packaged ingredients, and he switched to organic, plant-based whole food diet, daily detoxification with supplements and added juicings for the added nutrients. And at 72 years old, he reversed his stage for metastasized cancer, where he was given three months to live and he lived another 22 more years.
05:44
Now, being naturally a researcher and really curious, I couldn't discount what he did and just chalk it up to one anecdotal story. So I investigated the therapy to understand. You know, what did it mean, what was the science behind it? And lo and behold, it opened up a whole new world where I saw that actually, not even just for the last 200 years of published medical research and peer reviewed journal articles does this information exist. But you know, going back through traditional Chinese medicine and Ayurvedic medicine and other indigenous medicine practices, you know food has been medicine since the day every single human being was came into existence on the planet.
06:20 - Hilary Russo (Host)
What is your hope when you say that you want to teach 22 million people how to eradicate their chronic diseases using food as medicine in the next, really, six years? Yeah, when you think about that, what does that mean for you? Because I know that you are putting a lot of these programs, in these wellness programs in organizations, companies and institutions, but and teaching doctors is one thing that you do, so what is how? Would that mission be a possibility for you?
06:49 - Dr. Nicolette Richer (Guest)
yeah, I think one of the biggest, most important things any entrepreneur can do is to set a big, hairy, audacious goal. And a big, hairy, audacious goal is a goal that is bigger than anything you can ever imagine accomplishing. And if we don't set goals like that, then we we just don't set big goals. We actually set really small goals that are very easy to achieve, and so it's important to set a big, hairy, audacious goal. So that is mine. It's going to be really hard to quantify.
07:12
For example, I was invited to China by the Ministry of Health and the Center for Chronic Disease Control to teach 600 physicians how to do this metabolic therapy that I teach. So what they ended up doing was donating 200 acres of organic farmland. The Chinese government did that and they mandated in China that every municipality needed to be in charge of the diabetes reversing diabetes using food as medicine. They now have a 150 bed wellness center where anybody in China can go to to learn the therapy that I taught these physicians. They gutted a main hospital in Beijing to put in a metabolic nutrition and detox center and including kitchens with stoves where every Wednesday evening the community can come and learn about food as medicine. So that's a country with over a billion people.
07:57
Now, am I going to know exactly how many patients those 600 individuals, those physicians, have been able to impact in the 150 bed center and the hospital in Beijing?
08:08
I will not be able to quantify that, but it allows me to actually reach out to organizations that I would not normally have reached out to and say, hey, can we partner? Another example is that Lululemon, which is a major employer of 34,000 employees, is one of our biggest sponsors and they made me an ambassador simply so we could get the message out, as food is medicine. So we're now working with them on a huge endeavor which is not only around chronic diseases but around mental health disorders as well, because mental health disorders are just chronic diseases, and so to really support men around the globe in reversing their suicidal ideation and mood disorders as well. So it's by partnering with these big organizations that I think I'm going to be able to achieve this goal. So, yeah, going to be hard to quantify, for sure, because I don't keep track of every single individual, but it allows me to really partner with big organizations.
09:00 - Hilary Russo (Host)
You glow when you're talking about this. You really you come alive, Like I'm just watching you as you talk about, and even talking about things that are traumatic when you talk about suicide. But I think you're seeing the other side of it, like where the possibility is.
09:13 - Dr. Nicolette Richer (Guest)
Yeah, thank you for noticing that. It is definitely my life's work. It doesn't even feel like work and every time I get a client who is sitting on the side of the road. This is one example a very successful entrepreneur in our town who called me from the side of the road crying because he had a rope in his hand but couldn't figure out where to hang the rope. He had served in the British Air Forces.
09:37
You can listen to the podcast on our Eat Real to Heal podcast his story. And then now to see him, married with two kids, running a restaurant. He completed our metabolic, nutrition and detox coaching certification. He helped his entire family reverse their head to toe psoriasis. After he healed himself of his psoriasis and his chronic diseases and mood disorders, no longer wants to take his life. He's thriving. And when you see an individual, you know really, do that 150 degree turn like that? Yeah, I can't help but glow and smile and I can give you thousands of case studies like that reversing mental health disorders, suicidal ideation, chronic diseases. It's one of the easiest things to do, but our society makes it so complicated, so I'm excited to be on the side that knows how to do it.
10:24 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I think that's where we truly vibe, because that's an area where I'm focusing on. As far as being a holistic practitioner in the emotional well-being field, you know, having self-regulating tools, having ways that you can put the power of emotional well-being in someone else's hands. People will say often they'll say, oh, you're a healer or you are the one that is doing the work for someone, but it's being the guide, it's being the person that says here are the tools. You're the one that's actually doing the work that empowers the actual client or patient in your case. And I think about that, like just in the work I do with Havening Techniques, which is a, you know, a psychosensory, neuroscience-based approach that changes your thoughts, moods, behaviors and habits rapidly and being able to give people those tools. Really, I think I'm seeing parts of the mirroring back. You know like you get very excited when you see that, oh yes, this is working for somebody and the work that you're doing is working for so many people. Where do you feel that the challenges are truly in the work that you do?
11:30 - Dr. Nicolette Richer (Guest)
Yeah. So we just got a book picked up by a publisher, our third book. It's called Rise Up and it's all about how women of color, it's time to rise up. It's time to reclaim our ancestral knowledge that food is medicine. It's time to reverse these chronic diseases. It's time to end the discrimination in the health field, in our food systems field, and it's time to reverse these chronic diseases. It's time to end the discrimination in the health field, in our food systems field, and it's time to really close those economic disparity gaps that we see that are huge, that really women face at higher levels than men.
11:58
So one of the big areas for BIPOC women especially, but men as well, and all genders and identities it is the fact that so many BIPOC individuals can't even access clean, real food. So they can't access your services, they can't access my services. It is out of their ability to be able to afford them. There's policies in place that won't that prevent them from having a grocery store that sells organic, clean, real food at affordable prices in their community. These are called redline districts. You know, whole Foods will not, whole Foods will not put their restaurant or their grocery store in a redline district.
12:37
Food deserts Well, yeah, and it's not even just food. Deserts, like just because you can get pop tarts in a grocery store, does not. That's not food. So it's actually having nutrition deserts, and so that's a huge problem. So that is the work that I'm really focused on individuals who can afford to buy, you know, food at a Whole Foods, but they still choose to buy processed, refined food. I've been working with these individuals for a long time. I've, quite frankly, become a little bit exhausted because we do have so much information there's too much information out there, in fact, but it's interesting. I've decided to really focus on BIPOC women, and that is an area that I know I'll be focusing on probably for the next half of my life, the next 50 years, and it's the area with some of the biggest challenges, because we're still facing racism in this area. We're still facing those economic gaps as well.
13:31 - Hilary Russo (Host)
That is something that I became very familiar with when I was working with CVS Health, because I was hosting a show called Healthy Communities. We focused on the social determinants of health and seeing the lack in some of these communities that, really, put it, halted a number of communities from being able to access what is healthier for them in their everyday, in their communities. But also it's changing the habits, because if for so long they have been eating a certain way to survive, it's changing the thought, moods, behaviors and habits to thrive, to live well to realize that they can turn so many things around, and it's not just the food, like you said, it's an emotional response as well.
14:10
Can you touch on why keto kills? That was something that came up because we hear so much about keto on both sides. I'm curious from your perspective, why does keto kill?
14:20 - Dr. Nicolette Richer (Guest)
Yeah. So I'll actually just jump in and say it's not my perspective. It's actually what the scientific literature shows. So we have media, nutritionists, health advocates promoting keto based on a very few amount of studies and these studies have not been done long term. All of the studies that I've looked at that have been done long term. They had to actually stop the studies because they actually resulted in people having higher rates of suicidal ideation, clinical depression, which they didn't even have starting keto, higher rates of heart disease. Some studies had to be stopped because some of the patients they couldn't even carry out the long-term study because some of the patients ended up with 98% arterial blockage from keto. So they couldn't ethically continue the study because the subjects, the participants, would have died.
15:06
So when you just look at the evidence, that is why I do not promote keto but scientifically, from a biochemical perspective as well, when you choose to eat that high amount of fat, that high amount of protein, and especially if doing it through an animal-based diet, you create what's called a TMAO reaction in the gut. This happens in everybody. It's just a basic biochemical principle. Most people have no idea what TMAO does and is. So this reaction happens and then it starts immediately to clog arteries. When you do this, you create insulin insensitivity. You cannot draw glucose and insulin across the arterial walls into the cells where it's needed. So your kidneys, your heart, all your organs that are dependent on glucose and insulin no longer able to receive it. So then you create diabetes, heart disease, mental health disorders and more. So there is no way I can get behind that, because the long-term studies show keto kills.
16:02
So now we have a bunch of hooligans and I'll call them hooligans running around the planet. Most of these hooligans are backed by media because they running around the planet. Most of these hooligans are backed by media because they you know how media loves to. You know jump onto one little molecule like resveratrol from red wine, one study showing that resveratrol it does the body good. All of a sudden, the media is promoting red wine as being good for you.
16:22
But what media fails to say is that you'd need to drink 12 bottles of red wine in one sitting to get enough resveratrol. That would actually be beneficial to the body. So we have people running around spreading nutritional information that do not know how to read an actual scientific study from beginning to end, and this is killing people. So it's not just keto kills, media kills. Nutritionists who fail to read scientific studies are killing people every single day, and I do not say that lightly if they're in. You don't know how many nutritionists that have patients, clients that end up coming to me afterwards because their markers are worse than when they started with that nutritionist, and so it's really, really important that we start looking at nutrition as a body of medicine that is not going to be run by people who've never read a single scientific study.
17:11 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I have a question about testing too. When people do come to you, do they get specific types of tests, meaning like their vitamin tests, blood work, like a full panel? What's the first step for somebody that comes to you as a patient or a potential patient?
17:25 - Dr. Nicolette Richer (Guest)
Yes. So everybody who comes to me already has years of diagnostic testing done. They have years of lab results. They have everything. Most often I don't need. There's only a few more tests that I need done. They're very minor, so they already have it. Because they're on disability, they've had their chronic disease for a long time, they're on 36 different medications, so they don't need more testing.
17:47
This is the other side that drives me, and if I can say this on the show, you can say whatever you want Thank you, that shit. Crazy is when a health coach takes on a new client and then they just send them for these expensive tests that do not need to be done, whereas they already have the testing done. We've seen their lab markers, we've seen their hormone panels, we've seen everything. So my clients come in, we already know their full diagnosis. I work with their entire medical team to reverse their disease. So the premise of what I teach is only there's two things you have your chronic disease because of two factors okay Nutritional deficiency that resulted in toxicity or toxicity that resulted in nutritional deficiency. You reverse those two factors and the client heals. Now people will say what about the emotional side of it, which I know is really a lot of the good work that you do.
18:36
Of course there's an emotional side of it, but here's the thing Most of my clients don't have the mental capacity anymore because their brain fog is so bad that you can coach the hell out of them and they cannot remember what you just said. They cannot implement the tools that you know. So the thing is is that we can reverse those two things nutritional deficiency and toxicity which really starts with the next meal that they eat, the next meal they can do it that day. Within a day they can start to think clearly, which means that they can address yes, intergenerational trauma is 100% true and affects probably everybody. Right?
19:11
People have huge traumas, big T traumas, little t traumas, emotional concussions All humans have that. If you're a human on the planet, you have that. So what we do is we just go in with the simplest thing that every human does on any given day, and that's that they eat food. We just change the food that they're eating and all of a sudden they heal, even though they still have the big T traumas. They still haven't even dealt with that. But now that their brain is clear and their body's nervous system is not in angst because it's looking for nutrients or it's highly toxic, all of a sudden they're able to address the emotional side, or the spiritual side, or their mental health as well. But we start with the physical first and foremost.
19:50 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, that's why you're the type of doctor I love to work with, because there is such a need for the liaison between the client, the patient and the doctor, and I think that's where health coaches come in. But what? Where you really hit the nail on the head is that, first of all, stay within your scope of practice. Everyone, if you are a health coach that tunes into this podcast or you are in any way in the nutrition or health or medical or mental health field, please stay within your scope of practice. Build that tribe of people, like you mentioned, working with their doctors right, it's not just one, because we all have these areas that we focus on that we're there to support the client or the patient for the doctor, right? So the one thing I do want to share with those who are tuning in is that Dr Nicolette has just graciously offered her reverse your chronic disease. This is her program that she has. It's called Eat Real to Heal, course. I'm going to put that in the podcast notes. And also there is a program, a certification program, that you have, on nutritional detox.
20:53
If we can just learn how to detox this body from the things that we you know we do it so much for our home. We do it for things outside of ourselves. If we're not starting right here, the temple before you, the one that you look in the mirror and see every day, what are we doing Right? So having something like this is really great. I'll put all of that in the podcast notes. You can look into Dr Nicolette's approaches everything on her website to offer more. What would the first step be for folks that are looking to take this to the next level? They are frustrated, they are getting brain fog, they are getting migraines, they are not sleeping well. You know we can really compound all of these doctor visits that they get and that in itself can just burn you out. So what's the first step?
21:35 - Dr. Nicolette Richer (Guest)
The first step is when you go to the grocery store is you have to know the difference between processed food and refined food. So a lot of people don't like taking supplements. They're afraid of supplements, they think they're going to hurt them. But again, that's because they're not looking at the research that shows that supplements do very, very little harm, and in fact, you can count on my fingers how many people have been negatively impacted by supplements, whereas prescription medications everybody's willing to pop those pills and which you do need until you know another way. So the first thing you need to do is know the difference between refined and processed food. All the processed food that's out there usually comes in a box, a bag, a package of some sort. You need to not purchase that stuff anymore. It's full of preservatives high in sodium, it's full in food coloring, it's full of glyphosate, it's full of you know, pesticides, herbicides. This stuff is killing you slowly cell by cell, organ by organ.
22:29
So that's the first thing you need to know.
22:30
So when you go to the grocery store, it makes it really, really, really easy, because when you want to go buy the potatoes, sure the potatoes might come in a bag, but try and get the potatoes that are still dirty that come in the box. Buy the apples, not the fruit roll-ups or the applesauce in a jar. Buy the oranges, buy the chickpeas, not the chickpea potato chips that are 100% organic and still covered in tons of sodium and have to have supplements added to them to even be considered food. So this is the first thing that people need to do. You do not need to know how to cook, which is so beautiful. A lot of my clients who come to our retreats they've never chopped a potato or even seen broccoli. And it is okay, because in our Eat Real to Heal program, we teach you how to become some of the best chefs in the entire world, and you don't have to spend hours in the kitchen If somebody has to give you meal plan after meal plan, week after week. This is not intuitive eating, and what we do is teach you how to eat intuitively so you can eat with the seasons, you can buy what's affordable at the grocery store and then you know how to make it really really easily with spending the least amount of time in the kitchen. Really important to cook your food.
23:34
So if there's a lot of raw foodists out there who are suffering from chronic diseases, one of the most important things you could do is actually use the heat from your stove as medicine, because by cooking the food, you're going to actually access about 2000 times more nutrients and make it really easy on your body to heal.
23:49
So if you're doing any fad programs right now, if somebody is telling you to fast right now to try and reverse your chronic disease, I promise you.
23:57
I've worked with thousands of people who fasted and they're still have their chronic diseases and that's because they're still not eating clean, real food. So eat real food. And with our coaching program I just have to say and it's not just an online course where you're going to be left to do it on your own Only 5% of people ever ever even open up, let alone complete, an online course that they purchased. So we offer a lifetime of group coaching every single week so we can handhold you through the process, so you can ask the questions and not have to spend 24 hours just trying to find the answer on Google or within the course. You can just simply show up, ask the questions and, as you age and as you go through menopause or giving birth or whatever it is that you're going to be doing over the course of your life, we're still here for you to answer those questions in our weekly live group coaching.
24:44 - Hilary Russo (Host)
And that's the Real to Heal course. Correct, that's your group coaching course.
24:47 - Dr. Nicolette Richer (Guest)
That's the Eat Real to Heal course and it's the community too, isn't it?
24:50 - Hilary Russo (Host)
It's community. I mean, you're not alone in the battle. It's not one to one and there are benefits to one in one. But I think there's also real benefits to having community and knowing other people are going through something. It might not be your specific battle, but we're all in this together kind of thing, right, you learn from others.
25:04 - Dr. Nicolette Richer (Guest)
Yeah, and like, for example, andrew, you know he suffered from 30 migraines. A Everybody celebrated Miguel rheumatoid arthritis on disability couldn't play baseball anymore, which is his sport. Couldn't work anymore, living alone at home suffering from rheumatoid arthritis on all of these prescription meds that were just like slowly killing him. When the day his doctors took him off his last medication and declared him rheumatoid arthritis free, we all celebrated. His son died a month later. We were all there to support him and hold him through that time. So, yes, community is so, so, so important.
25:42 - Hilary Russo (Host)
What do you think is the biggest fad out there right now that you just wish people would just stop?
25:51 - Dr. Nicolette Richer (Guest)
I don't know. Keto for sure is one of the biggest ones. Keto is just another name for the Atkins diet, so everybody needs to know that that created so much heart disease in the 80s.
26:01 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I remember that.
26:02 - Dr. Nicolette Richer (Guest)
So keto, I would say, is the one that is doing the most harm to humans, to their bodies and to the planet. It is horrific when it's, you know, in a time when we need to be consuming less meat because we were told 100 years ago how you, we need protein, we need fat, we need, you know, all of these animal-based products. And now, basically, governments around the world are rewriting all their nutrition programs to say, please stop eating so much meat. At the same time that all the keto advocates came out, and all because of what? They? Sure, you can lose weight, but you're going to clog your arteries doing it. So I would say, keto Fasting is amazing, for sure, there's no doubt about it, but people are using it like it's the only thing that they need to do, and it's so important that, sure, if you're going to eat within that eight hour period, that's fine, but if you have a chronic disease, you need nutrients all throughout the day, and that is critical, especially if you're trying to reverse something like a very aggressive chronic disease like cancer, where you have limited time on your hands. Fasting is not going to get you there. So that's a challenge for me and, as well, the kind of fasting people are doing.
27:10
I'm a big proponent of intermittent fasting, where you still consume some calories, but not this. You know people who are running around, you know consuming their one meal a day, which you can do for a limited amount of time. But again, you have to look at the long-term studies as well. And as well you have to know that you're not a yeast molecule, you are not a yeast species alone. You are intricate human species.
27:38
So what happens in the laboratory in a Petri dish, is not the same that happens to a human in real life. That's busy, running around taking care of kids, has stress, you know, because the economy is taking in environmental toxins. So it's really important that people are critical of the scientific research that gets published as well, and anybody can take a course in how to you know understand bias in a research and how to read the entire study. So that's going to be really important is we need to develop a scientifically literate society, and anybody can do that. My kids are teenagers and they know how to read through scientific journals now, and so this is something we need to be teaching in school. So that's also one of the big fads is that our education system is also needs an overhaul.
28:22 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Oh, that could be a whole nother conversation. I agree with that, not just. I mean in all areas. It's not your everyday home ec, home ec, like when we grew up. You know, and I'm so happy to see that some schools are taking that really seriously, both nutrition and mental health, mindfulness, you know, bringing those into the classroom.
28:41
So hopefully we will see a change with more champions like yourself. I know we have a little time left and I just want to remind folks that there is a wonderful course, that that the doctor is putting out, and it's called eat real to heal, and also the detox coaching certification she has. I'm going to put all of that in the podcast notes you mentioned. You have a book that you're working on called rise up, and is there anything else that is coming up? Because there's? I have so much on you that I want to talk about in this time and I actually really I do have something I want to ask you about. Please tell me about the Green Mustache Organic Cafes.
29:16 - Dr. Nicolette Richer (Guest)
Yeah. So back in 2013, I had been working in government up until that point and our local HR manager in the government said could you please teach all our employees the Eat Realty Heal program? And so I did and all of a sudden all the employees started coming back to me saying oh, I don't have, you know, emphysema anymore. I can breathe again. I don't have depression. I just got pregnant after being told for 15 years I cannot get pregnant. Diabetes gone, heart disease. So all of these individuals kept coming back their energy through the roof, you know, brain fog gone. So I started taking on clients. Then because you, then because people are saying can you work with my mom? She's got this disease. Can you work with my cousin? So I started taking on clients and one of the number one things my clients said to me was after they got started with the program and they saw well, you need to be in your kitchen, right? Feminist movement was wonderful, but it really did take humans out of the kitchen and didn't replace them. So that's all fine to take women out of the homes, put them in the workforce, but they forgot to put a chef back in the kitchen for the household. And so tv dinners. You know macaroni and cheese. Those things came to be the convenient food, quick fix, yes. So my client started asking me can you make me the food? So I did. I did.
30:35
I was like five months pregnant with my third child and I would start making juices and making the food and delivering it to clients and delivering it to restaurants so they can sell it to their patrons. They were asking for the food and I was like I cannot do this anymore. I need a restaurant where I can have a whole team who makes the food and I can be coaching clients. So I quit my job in government, opened up the first restaurant. That's when I was also applying for med school. I had just written my MCAT and all the doctors who were eating at our restaurant.
31:02
They said Nikki, do not go to med school, just grow the green mustache. So the green mustache is 100% organic, plant-based, whole food, vegan, gluten-free cafe, which means we basically get the food from our farmers. They pick it at five in the morning. They bring it into our restaurant. We convert it into amazing meals lots of warm dishes, cool dishes. Any beverage you get in there is made from a whole food. We do not have refined sugar, we do not have any salt, we do not have any refined oils, everything is made from scratch and whole foods. So that's our restaurant. And, yeah, we had up to eight locations at one point, or seven locations, and we have 10 coming to New York at one point soon. So, yeah, that's an exciting company.
31:46 - Hilary Russo (Host)
That's amazing. What a journey. Love it. We have a couple minutes left. I want to ask you if you are willing to do a quick rapid fire game that I do with my guests at the end of every podcast. I'm going to throw out a word and then what you do is come back with the first word that comes to mind. All right, yeah, refined Processed food Intuitive.
32:08 - Dr. Nicolette Richer (Guest)
Healer Clean vegetables, metabolism, mitochondria disease, reversed bipoc, complete, most amazing total health and wellness knowledge that needs to be resurrected so that we use that beautiful wisdom to heal the planet and heal all people and animals and rocks and trees and soil, etc.
32:37 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Can I just leave it there? We're going to make that one long word like supercalifragilisticexpialidocious.
32:43 - Dr. Nicolette Richer (Guest)
That's exactly what it was intended to be. That's great, yes.
32:46 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Awesome. One more word for you, just like it's the exclamation point heal.
32:52 - Dr. Nicolette Richer (Guest)
Potential. Yeah, and we all have that right.
32:55 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I think that's what you're teaching people.
32:56 - Dr. Nicolette Richer (Guest)
We all do.
32:58
We all have the ability to be free of chronic disease, and I'll just talk about the nutrition and detox coaching certification.
33:05
So that is a six month training program for any individual, whether you have a science background or not, whether you're a physician, a stay at home dad, someone who's a physician, a stay-at-home dad, someone who's battling a chronic disease. That's a beautiful program where you're going to learn everything that I know that I've learned in the last 25 years about reversing chronic disease. I download all the science to you the art of reversing disease, how to coach clients and then we help you build a business in helping other people reverse their chronic diseases. So that's an exciting program. One of our former students he just got a $4 million investment for his business that he built. Another student has 169 acre beautiful piece of land in British Columbia where he now works with elders and indigenous communities working to help men and women in their 20s reverse their mood disorders and mental health disorders and chronic diseases. I love that program because it can take anybody, you do not need to be a physician, and it turns you into a healer overnight.
34:06 - Hilary Russo (Host)
We're our own healers first. Yes, exactly, it's really the only ones that we can focus on is the inner healing, yeah, you know, and then we can support others on their journey as well. Exactly, thank you for being here and just sharing your gift. Thank you for having me on your show. If you connect with what Dr Roche shared during our conversation on HIListically Speaking, it may be time to connect with her personally so you can turn your health around and finally heal once and for all. Just check out the list of notes of Holistically Speaking and see how you can find out more about the Eat Real to Heal program that she has, her course and her detox coaching certification, as well as everything else that we shared during our conversation right here on this podcast episode, and listen.
34:50
Dr Richer shared that healing is about building your army right, finding the right doctors, the right practitioners, the right coaches to support you on your healing journey. And you know what? Havening could be one of those things, and I could be that guy by your side. So if you want to see how havening can help you with your emotional well-being, how you could hug it out, how you could put the healing back in your hands and make that part of that army that you want to build to heal, to live a well-balanced life. Just check the list of notes I shared how you can get in touch with me for a complimentary session and learn more about how Havening can help you on your healing journey.
35:31
And don't forget to share your thoughts and your responses about this podcast episode. Remember, every time you download, every time you subscribe, every time you leave your message and thoughtful message on the app where you listen, it lets others find this episode and this could help someone else too, so you can pay it forward. I really appreciate reading those responses and I love to read what you have to share Holistically. Speaking is edited by 2MarketMedia with music by Lipbone Redding and listened to and tuned into and supported by you. So thank you so much for being part of this journey. Week after week, you have everything you need to heal yourself. You might just need a guy by your side, and taking this first step just by tuning in here is all part of that process. So thank you for trusting me on your journey. I love you, I believe in you and I will see you next week.
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The echo of the past can be filled with uncertainties, especially for those touched by adoption. Award-winning author Julie McGue, a twin adoptee bravely bares her soul in her quest for identity within her richly blended family. Our conversation explores the topic of closed adoption, and highlights not only the obstacles faced by those denied access to their biological lineage and medical history, but also the universal longing to deeply understand our roots. From the insecurities of adoptive parents to the fear of rejection from birth parents, we travel the rocky road adoptees commonly face. But also, the transformative power of community and storytelling that can serve as a channel for the shared human experience that heals and shapes our lives.
CHAPTERS/KEY MOMENTS
00:00 Intro
04:38 Discovering Family History and DNA
08:40 Navigating Family and Identity Struggles
11:13 Reunion and Discovery
17:01 Adoption and Loss
19:15 Community Support
32:54 Ancestral Exploration and Healing
34:35 The Power of Storytelling
36:25 Rapid Fire Game
38:05 Julie’s final thoughts
39:45 Hilary’s closing
CONNECT WITH JULIE MCGUE
https://www.juliemcgueauthor.com
www.facebook.com/juliemcguewrites
www.instagram.com/julieryanmcgue
www.linkedin.com/in/julie-mcgue-a246b841
JULIE’S BOOKS ON AMAZON
”Twice a Daughter: A Search for Identity, Family, and Belonging” and “Belonging Matters: Conversations on Adoption, Family, and Kinship”
LEARN MORE ABOUT HAVENING WITH HILARY
https://www.hilaryrusso.com/haveningRECEIVE THE BRAIN CANDY NEWSLETTER
https://hilaryrusso.com/braincandyCONNECT WITH HILARY
https://www.instagram.com/hilaryrusso
https://www.youtube.com/hilaryrusso
https://www.facebook.com/hilisticallyspeaking
https://www.tiktok.com/@hilisticallyspeaking
https://www.hilaryrusso.com/podcastMusic by Lipbone Redding https://lipbone.com/
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
(Full Transcript https://www.hilaryrusso.com/podcast)
00:08 - Julie McGue (Guest)
This is the day that she always feared would happen. And all of a sudden, here it is, it's happening, and she didn't show her best self. Did she come around? Yes, she came around, but it was a tricky mother-daughter conflict. We were adults, so we did work our best at re-encouraging everyone that the love was there.
00:31 - Hilary Russo (Host)
We hear a lot of ups and downs when it comes to adoption, but one thing if you are not an adoptee or you're not even connected to the adoption community, a lot of questions come up about belonging, identity, how to make sure you know everything about your health and well-being and I have not covered this topic on HIListically Speaking before and I find this to be something that is extremely important for us to talk about whether you know somebody or you are an adoptee or you have adopted a child and I think one person that is a perfect guest to have on the show is Julie McGue. She is an adoptee, she is also a twin, and she is someone that did not seek out information about her adoption until later in life. And, Julie, this is a topic that I think does need more discussion, and I'm so glad you're here to share your experiences and your story. So thanks for being here. Thank you, yeah, oh.
01:41
Was Julie adopted together with her sibling? Were they adopted separately, and how the relationship with your sibling and the family really was able to grow and prosper and just create that sense of belonging and identity? Can we go into that first? Oh, sure, I'd be happy to.
02:01 - Julie McGue (Guest)
So my twin sister and I were adopted together through Catholic Charities and their policy was always to keep multiple birth siblings together. So right off the bat, my birth mom knew that if she had more than one child which was definitely something that ran in her family that her daughters or her kids would stay together, so that was important to her. One of the things that's interesting about being a twin, especially if you're adopted is one of the things that adoptees often wonder about is who do I look like, who do I take after? And so that sense of belonging is a big question for adoptees. From the very beginning I never had to look understand who I look like. I always looked like my sister. To be raised with a full sibling is a real blessing for any adopted person. So a lot of good things came out of being adopted with my sister.
03:12
My parents also adopted a boy two years after my sister and I, and how often happens, they were able to have three biological children after all of us. So I grew up in this big Irish Catholic blended family of three adoptees and three biological kids. To my parents' credit, I don't think I could tell any difference, but how they treated any one of us. Everybody had the same rewards, the same punishments. They were pretty strict and they were very clear about how much they loved us and how much they wanted this family that they built through adoption and natural childbirth.
03:59
So I waited until I was 48 years old to do any research about my adoption. It was closed. Closed means that the birth parents' identities are disguised or hidden, and it also allows adoptive parents to not have that co-parenting situation that sometimes happens with open adoption. But unfortunately, what it does is it doesn't allow an adoptee to have any sense of their identity, from where they came from, who they were before adoption was the plan made for them.
04:38
So, even though I had this twin sister and I knew I belonged to her and I certainly felt belonging in my family, I had no idea. Was I really Catholic? Was I really Irish? What else did I not know? And then I had this breast biopsy at 48 and my husband insisted that I get at family history if I could. I have three daughters. All of that affected them, and so my first phone call was to my twin sister and it said you know, what do you think? And she said absolutely, I support you completely. It became my journey, my story, but she was involved every step of the way, every decision that we had to make. She and I talked about it.
05:29 - Hilary Russo (Host)
So that is a lot. That is a lot later in life to question your family history, knowing that you came from a nurturing, loving family, had a sibling who looked just like you that you can share that experience with, in addition to another sibling who was also adopted. Was there ever, even earlier in life, a desire to want to find out more about your birth mother and your lineage, your past, your DNA? We're doing so many of these DNA tests now. Did that exist?
06:04 - Julie McGue (Guest)
Yes, that did exist and this is something that adoptees talk about a lot, that we have a lot of fantasies with lack of information. Like anybody, you kind of make up your own story in your head. You know, brene Brown talks about that a lot in her books the stories we make up in our heads to make us feel better about something that just happened. So my sister and I decided when we were teenagers our birth parents must have been teenagers and we decided that maybe he was the star football player and maybe she was the head cheerleader and that they, they were passionate and they wanted to go to college. And this just wasn't what you know. They wanted to do was get married and raise kids. So that appeased us for a while. There also was in the back of my mind and my sister's mind that, you know, maybe it was something else, maybe it was two were too many, maybe that was the reason why we were placed for adoption. So there were a lot of things to think about when you know that the gatekeepers are going to keep you from accessing everything. You just stuck it in a little drawer and every once in a while you take it out are going to keep you from accessing everything. You just stuff it in a little drawer and every once in a while you take it out and you look at it and then you put it back in. What ended up happening? Timing was everything with this.
07:37
I had the breast biopsy.
07:39
Turns out I didn't have breast cancer, but the threat that it might be in my family line meant I was going to full steam ahead. I was ready to go, my sister was ready to help with it, and the state of Illinois had changed their policy, their law about adoption, meaning that any adoptee over a certain age could access the original birth record. So I accessed my original birth record. Unfortunately, the search agency I turned it over to figured out that my birth mom had used an alias on the original birth record perfectly legal in 1959 to falsify a public record like that sounding to me, and also perfectly legal to not include the birth father's name. He didn't sign off on his parental rights, which is not something that happens today.
08:40
So we were kind of stuck and at the same time that we're struggling with getting the search going, my adoptive mom was not happy with me. She really feared that she was going to be set aside as our mother and I had to work really hard and so did my, to prove to her that our bond was our bond. She had raised us, and that was a tricky thing. I'm battling health, I'm battling this search and I'm also having to be really careful with my adoptive mom. So there were a lot of issues at play.
09:25 - Hilary Russo (Host)
And I imagine that this could also bring, were a lot of issues at play, and I imagine that this could also bring up the thought of loss and grief and grief, before grief even happens. Your mom raised beautiful children and, while they might not be from her womb, there's kind of a spiritual womb that exists in families that are well-rounded and close and that can be a disconnection. So, having that conversation and her also knowing that there was another entity that was on Team Julie being your twin, I can only imagine how difficult that must have been for her. But my question is how did you have conversations with your brother about this as well?
10:04 - Julie McGue (Guest)
Oh, yes, definitely.
10:06 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Because here is another child in the family that was also adopted, and does it spark that curiosity for your brother as well to try to find his birth parents?
10:16 - Julie McGue (Guest)
He was waiting and watching how my parents handled my sister and I going down this path when our search got rolling and I ended up getting involved with Catholic Charities because they had a social worker that did this kind of work. He came to every adoption support group meeting with me, paying attention, seeing how he was going to sort through this for himself. My sister and I definitely blazed the trail for him and by the time he got around to doing it, my parents realized this was going to be okay, the family was going to stay intact, that this was very important to all of us to understand who and where we came from and assimilate that into our personality. My mom did eventually come around. It is kind of a God wink moment, if you will, at the end of the book Twice a Daughter.
11:13
I won't give everything away, but I do find a brother and a sister, a half brother and a half sister, so we share the same father. And when I do find my birth father, he doesn't want anything to do with my sister and I, but he does give me my medical history, which was what I was after, and he wouldn't comply with DNA analysis. So there was this question was he really the right guy and I really did feel like I needed DNA to know, because breast cancer ran in his family. My aunt had died of breast cancer before she was 40. So big breast cancer scary stuff. And my brother, my birth father, told my brother that you know, there's these two women. One of them is requesting all of this information and testing in and I'm not going to do it. And my brothers just picked up the phone and called me a cold call and, as we often do when we're talking with strangers, you know you're saying where did you go to school and how do you know? How do we, how would our paths have crossed ever?
12:26
But came out that I knew his wife and that his wife and my family were intertwined. I won't give the whole secret away and because of that, because my adoptive parents and my adoptive family already knew my sister-in-law and her family, we all had probably met my brother and not known he was our brother. It fixed everything, Hilary. Instantly it was my mom realized oh, I know these people. This is great. Let's get together for family dinner. This is an amazing, beautiful moment. So the story, you know, it's ups and downs and it's one setback after another, but in the end there was this beautiful coming together of families that knew each other but didn't know they were biologically related. Do I ever get to meet my birth father? I don't he. He had a cardiac event and died before he changed his mind, so who knows if that would have ever happened.
13:46 - Hilary Russo (Host)
It sounds like it is a Godwink moment and so fortunate to be able to have that and have some sense of closure. But not everyone gets that.
13:56 - Julie McGue (Guest)
No, you did mention your book.
13:59 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I want to mention that real quick. Julie has three books. The third one's coming out next year, but the book we're referring to is Twice a Daughter, A Search for Identity, Family and Belonging, and then your second book is Belonging Matters. Those are the conversations of adoption, family and kinship, more like essays, and we'll put all of these links in the podcast notes. But just to go back to that, this is a wonderful turnout. Sounds like a perfect movie where everybody works out like a Hallmark movie in a way.
14:29
But it's not always like that, Because when you think about and I just know this personally, not from being an adoptee or adopting, but having friends who have and sometimes you don't find the parents, sometimes you find family members and they don't really want to have a connection with you.
14:48 - Julie McGue (Guest)
Oh, it definitely. At my birth, mom did not want anything to do with us either, so it was not an easy road for her as far as being found.
14:58 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Right, but when it comes to health, do you think that there are laws and rules that need to be in place? And if that's the case, how would that change adoption for those who would consider putting their child up for adoption but don't want to be found?
15:16 - Julie McGue (Guest)
The trend now in adoption is open adoption, which means that an adoptive parent enters into an adoption plan with the birth parents and they establish between them what the contact is going to be. Is it going to be just a yearly phone conversation or cards and letters? So it is between the birth parents and the adoptive parents, so that piece is so much better. When it comes to adoption, closed adoptions really did go out of vogue after 1980. Unfortunately, to your point about laws and statutes those of us that were adopted before 1980 during closed adoption it is up to each individual state to decide what their statutes are and to this point Illinois was one of the first eight states that changed open records acts. New York has changed their laws. There's probably about 15 out of 50 states that allow people my age to access their original birth records and research their family medical history.
16:32
Unfortunately, dna can help some of us. It can't help all of us because the database is only as good as the people that subscribe to it. For example, my half-brother. That family never would have signed up for DNA. They don't want their specimens anywhere, so I would not have been able to find them through DNA.
17:01
But some adoptees do the thing about birth parents and I want to emphasize the loss because you brought that up earlier. Loss is prevalent in the whole adoption triad. Adoptive parents most of them choose adoption as the way to build a family because they have infertility. So there's this insecurity about being able to have a biological child, a birth parents, birth mothers generally. It's a searing loss for them to have this situation present themselves where they're not going to parent their child and adoptees lose a sense of their family and their identity.
17:50
One of the things that happened as a result of my search and my birth mom telling my sister and I I don't want anything to do with these girls I wasn't expecting that, Hilary, I thought I would be the lost girl found that she was waiting for me to find her. In fact, she didn't want to be found. She feared Her family had not. She'd never told her family. She feared my birth father coming back into her life.
18:22
There was a lot of fear about that and I turned to Catholic Charities and got involved with their post adoption support group and it was one of the most meaningful things that came out of that adoption search because I came to understand the heartache that a birth mother goes through in coming to the decisions that they make and they work just as hard as adoptees do to make contact with their birth child sometimes with no success, sometimes with success and the adoptive parents. My adoptive mom was a little unusual in her lack of support because there were adoptive parents in our group that were supporting their child to find access to information that was important to them. It's a complicated situation for everybody and the people that are outside of the adoption world. I think sometimes there's some preconceived ideas about it. Adoptees like me present themselves until my middle age as being well-adjusted, and I write an essay about that in Belonging Matters. I did feel well-adjusted until I wasn't well-adjusted. I wanted that.
19:47 - Hilary Russo (Host)
When was that?
19:49 - Julie McGue (Guest)
Well, I needed to know this family history and I couldn't have it, and it made me mad, and I think that you know there are a lot of angry adoptees out there. I think maybe that's some of the voices that people hear adoptees that aren't happy about their situation or they can't find, um, their relatives, um. But I felt like the, the support group that I I'm still involved in that, by the way, it's been 15 years, um, I think when you start listening to everybody else's perspective and you realize this isn't just about you, there's other things at play here. I think it allows us not only to heal personally but to have empathy for the other members in the triangle.
20:44 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, it's a sense of community, knowing that you're not alone, even if your story is different. It's giving you a sense of community and a collective of those who are going through something with that similar attachment.
20:57 - Julie McGue (Guest)
Yes, exactly.
20:59 - Hilary Russo (Host)
So that anytime we can have a support and a community, and I imagine sometimes that's even a community of people who aren't connected to your story personally. Right, so that, and it's beautiful that you're still involved with that that the thought that is coming up to me is you were 48 when this awareness of I need to make some decisions and get some answers came to pass. But were there moments earlier where you really felt that pull? I mean, you mentioned making up the stories with your sister. Have you approached your parents, your adopted parents, prior to look into this earlier?
21:45
And were you shut down? Were you supported?
21:55 - Julie McGue (Guest)
you shut down? Were you supported? Really good question. So when I always knew that I was adopted. So that was a conversation my parents must have had with us when we were three or four or something, but every once in a while, around our birthday, they would sit us down in the living room and we'd have the adoption talk and they'd ask us you know, is there anything we can help you with? If you want to research your adoption, we'll help you, okay? So that conversation happened a handful of times when I was growing up. So my mother's reaction to me deciding to eventually search at 48 came out of nowhere and, as we talked about earlier, I know now that it came out of fear. She was worried that this woman was going to be a threat to her and in talking with the social worker about her reaction, she said you know, this is the day that she always feared would happen. Yeah, and she put it out of her mind.
23:00
And all of a sudden, here it is, it's happening, and she didn't show her best self. Did she come around? Yes, she came around. Self Did she come around? Yes, she came around. But it was, you know, a tricky mother-daughter conflict. You know, we were adults, so we did work our best at just re-encouraging everyone that the love was there.
23:28 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I imagine that is a conversation that parents who have adopted children have with themselves quite regularly, because you especially when you mentioned the fact that there are different reasons why people adopt many times it might be because they can't have their own children and when you finally have that moment, you're like holding your breath, that first year especially, you know, will anything change? Is this going to become an adoption? If it started in foster care, then adoption so many different avenues that people can take and then, as the child gets older, they become so much a part of you. If it is that well-balanced family environment, you stop thinking about those things, but it's still there and there's that thought of loss before a loss even exists, right, so the brain tends to go there. We go to the negative. It's how we keep ourselves alive. So creating that nurturing reminder to your mom and letting her know that it's still something I'm sure she thought about every day in some way, you know. So what would be your advice? And before we even go there, I just want to mention again, if you did miss it the first time Julie is an adoptee.
24:48
She's also a twin and she pursued finding her, adopted, her birth mother at 48 years old due to a potential health issue which we're happy that you're not dealing with. But then you have to think about your own family, like your children. You said you're a mother of three daughters, and then where do we go from there? So Julie has two wonderful books that are out very different and they kind of build on each other. I imagine you have Twice a Daughter A Search for Identity, family and Belonging, and then Belonging Matters Conversations on Adoption, family and Kinship, which is more of the essays, and then a new book coming out, which is another memoir in 2025, which is Twice the Family a memoir of love, loss and sisterhood. Really beautiful. Build on these three areas in your life, like, basically it's it's three stages in your life and building on that, was it, was it ever a thought, to become an author? Did you think about that?
25:50 - Julie McGue (Guest)
I have always been a writer but a journaler, so more of a private writing experience. So when Twice a Daughter, the story of the adoption search was unfolding, I was keeping copious notes with my journals and the more I told people the story of what was happening. And you know, I can't find my birth mother. Now I found my birth mother and she doesn't want to know us and my mom doesn't want to help me with this and the health stuff was going on whole saga which was five years from beginning to end. People would say, gosh, I hope you're going to write a book about this. And I thought, wow, I wonder if I should. And so I started taking writing classes at the University of Chicago in downtown Chicago, and so the book came together in 2021. And right right after COVID. I mean, I was writing the book during COVID.
26:51 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Great time to write.
26:53 - Julie McGue (Guest)
Yeah, what's interesting about having written the story and one of the things I like to speak to is this is my story, yes, but every struggle that I went through in that process is the same thing that other adoptees go through. They struggle with support from their adoptive family. They struggle with connection to make with their birth parents, to make with their birth parents. Some adoptees find siblings and in the communities that I'm involved in, most of us have better relationships with our siblings the siblings that we find than we do with our birth parents, because they don't have any skin in the game. They don't have any baggage to bring to the relationship. They're excited. They have two new siblings that they didn't even know that they had and there are a lot of similarities and it's been a lot of fun getting to know my new brother and sister, although my brother always says I am not your new brother, I have always been your brother, so I find that very sweet. I've also one of the things that I've written essays about is getting to know beyond this immediate circle.
28:15
My birth mom didn't want to tell her family. She wanted to keep us a secret. Her family, she wanted to keep us a secret, and this whole theme of secret keeping is, and shame is, at the very core of adoption from the closed adoption era. She had a hard time letting people know, because she had taken on society's shame and blame, viewed herself as a sinner, that she'd had this relationship outside of marriage and he wouldn't marry her, and it was something that she kept inside her identity. She didn't marry until she was in the late 40s. I don't have any other siblings from her, and so it has never been easy for her to introduce us to other people, and some of the things that she did to my sister and I not introducing us to family members and not inviting us to family reunions is foreign to me. My family that I grew up in was very loving. We had a lot of family gatherings, family reunions, big parties.
29:30
I couldn't understand my birth mother's attitude about including my sister and I, and I have finally come to the place I talk about healing that. I realize it's not my problem, it's her problem. I can't fix her. I would love for her to be fixed so that she could find joy in this relationship with her two daughters that she never could claim. I mean, think about how hard that is on Mother's Day to pretend that you are not a mother, so I have a lot of empathy for her and her situation. That was not easy to come to. A lot of self-work on that front. I also have forgiveness for my birth father. He chose not to meet us.
30:21 - Hilary Russo (Host)
That was my first question.
30:22 - Julie McGue (Guest)
Yeah, I was gonna ask you about that, because yeah, he chose not to meet my sister and I, and that situation is complicated by a second marriage or whatever. I had a great dad growing up. My adoptive father was just amazing, everyone's favorite, and so I don't feel cheated. There is one thing I do feel cheated about.
30:46 - Hilary Russo (Host)
What's that?
30:46 - Julie McGue (Guest)
I found out that my sister and I are strongly Native American on both sides of my biological families. I was deprived of knowing that, identifying with a culture that was mine to know my adoptive parents it's not their fault, they were not given any of that information, so I didn't find out about this culture that I belonged to until I was in my 50s and it's a little late then. Also, because my birth father's name is not on my original birth record means that I can't claim to be a Chippewa, so denied on many fronts, and so I'm still figuring that out. Here I am 65 and I'm still trying to figure out. How do I feel about this identity piece? I want to belong in that culture, I want to understand it, but I am denied access.
31:53 - Hilary Russo (Host)
And I imagine that goes back to the feelings associated with ancestral and generational trauma. You never connected to it knowingly, but when? And this I think this goes back to the DNA testing, all these DNA testings that we're finding out about now and using, and people are finding families that exist all over the world. Being able to attach yourself to a lineage, a culture, a heritage that you had no clue about and wanting to learn more about it, but then for you not being able to actually claim it is, in some ways, another loss.
32:37 - Julie McGue (Guest)
Definitely is.
32:38 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, yeah. So do you still feel a connection to it, to where you want to explore, learning about it, even if you can't claim it?
32:53 - Julie McGue (Guest)
Absolutely. I have some trips planned to northern Minnesota to see where my birth father is from Minnesota, to see where my birth father's from. He grew up very poor on the outskirts of the Chippewa Reservation in northern Minnesota, and so I do have plans to visit those places. I did extensive genealogy and have a lot of family history that I find fascinating, and so do my children, which is kind of fun. Three of my kids played college sports and that was kind of a joke in my family because I didn't have access to where did that come from, and so we never really knew. And then we found out that our birth father played college football, and so some of these things have fallen into place, made sense.
33:47 - Hilary Russo (Host)
It really is putting together a puzzle. Yeah, yeah, it really is. And how beautiful it is that you're experiencing all these things with now, your own children and your sister and family members that are curious. It's a curiosity, you know, but you know, with these traumas, as I often say and you mentioned as well, you find the healing there's a little bit of humor there's always you're confronted with your health turns into those triumphant moments, you know, and your mess is your message, basically. So what is next for Julie, in addition to the book that you have coming out, what is it that you are exploring now, in this stage of your life, with all of this beautiful knowledge?
34:35 - Julie McGue (Guest)
One of the things I really like to do is write short essays. For example, I had I was on vacation. I came back I was dreading going out to the mailbox and getting the mail and paying the bills and doing all that and so reluctantly went out there and the mail hadn't come yet. I didn't realize that. But inside my mailbox was a little card. A child had drawn it and a message inside and it said you won the mailbox project, love Layla.
35:12
So I just wrote an essay about this and it just caught me at the right moment. Here was an innocent child doing a random act of kindness, stuffed a little note in my mailbox and I came upon it right when I needed to. So that another little God wink moment. Going back to my comment earlier, I love finding these quirky little moments in life and building them out and writing a story about it. I write often about my grandsons and some of the fun, cute little stuff that they do. In fact I wrote an essay last fall that is in belonging matters, and I just recently found out it won a couple of different awards.
36:00
So I think I think I'm done writing memoir, but I think I'm not done being a storyteller.
36:09 - Hilary Russo (Host)
That's great, yeah, we. Our stories are so much a part of our healing you know, and hopefully they'll touch, move and inspire someone else, right? What is it Brene says one day, your story will be somebody else's survival guide.
36:22 - Julie McGue (Guest)
Yes, oh yeah. So well said Something like that.
36:25 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, yeah. Well, I want to have a little fun with you for a moment before we close. Sure, I've been writing down some words that you've said and what I do is a rapid fire, which is basically word association. I'm going to throw out a word that you said and you just come back as fast as you can with one word that associates with that one. What comes to mind first. Okay, Okay. All right, here we go. Ad Self Heritage.
37:05 - Julie McGue (Guest)
Ancestry, family, belonging Community, neighbors. Author Writer Loss. Writer Loss.
37:27 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Grief DNA.
37:30 - Julie McGue (Guest)
Biology Support Community.
37:39 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Beautiful and we do need community. We really do, and this big part of what this show is about is bringing people together, you know, to find those trauma, to triumph moments and know that even if their stories are different, there's a connection in some way. So I appreciate you sharing your story and do you have any final thoughts that you want to share with listeners and those who tune in?
38:10 - Julie McGue (Guest)
One thing I like to say to people is if you are not in the adoption community, but you know somebody that's touched by adoption, sit back and listen to what they have to say, or their viewpoint or their hurt, because so often we jump in and we offer an opinion or we have a perspective that we're not willing to change without really listening to somebody and I think this follows through with other hot topics. It doesn't have to be adoption. If we take the time to listen, time to listen and have empathy for the speaker, I think that we have the potential to invoke change in our societies and our communities, but we have to be willing to do that, to be willing to listen.
38:54 - Hilary Russo (Host)
That's beautiful, always coming from that place of compassion and empathy. It doesn't have to be our story, but that's what connects us. Thank you for sharing that. That's beautiful. We will share all the information on your books, julie McGue. Three books In 2025, we'll see three out there. Maybe even more with all these essays you're writing. Who knows? But Twice a Daughter A Search for Identity, family and Belonging, belonging Matters, conversations on Adoption, family and Kinship. And in 2025, twice a Family A Memoir of Love, loss and Sisterhood, and all of that will be in the podcast notes. I highly recommend sharing this, taking time to read these stories and see what your connection is and the empathy that you might have to this conversation, julie, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure.
39:42 - Julie McGue (Guest)
Thanks, Hilary. Thanks for your thoughtful questions and really easy conversation.
39:52 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I appreciate it, my pleasure. All right, my friends, if this conversation with Julie McGue inspired you in any way, like it did me, consider leaving a rating and a review wherever you're tuning in. It will help others find this podcast when you do that, and they might be the ones that really need to connect to the story. So do yourself a favor and do us a favor, and do others a favor and pay it forward. And if you want to connect with Julie personally, learn more about her stories or her books, I've shared all that information in the notes of this podcast. That includes her two books that are out right now Twice a Daughter A Search for Identity, family and Belonging and Belonging Matters, which are conversations on adoption, family and kinship, and, of course, her soon-to-be-released book in 2025, which is Twice a Family, which is a memoir of love, loss, sisterhood. That comes out in February.
40:41
And, yes, you can connect with me and learn more about how you can turn your traumas into triumphs, how you can hug it out with Havening with me as your guide, and you can also join us for Havening happy hours every month or any other event that I might be hosting. You can find that information on how to attend those events to connect with me. In the notes of this podcast as well, there's links for everything you need. HIListically Speaking is edited by 2 Market Media with music by Lipbone Redding and tuned into by you. So thank you for returning week after week and being part of the process, and never forget, no matter your journey, you do belong and your story does matter. I love you, I believe in you and I will see you next week. Be well.
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If you’ve ever wondered how self-perception can influence your journey to personal success, this conversation on the HIListically Speaking Podcast with guest Dr. John Demartini is for you. A world-renowned luminary in human behavior and emotional intelligence, Dr. Demartini will have you asking yourself, “How do I elevate my self-awareness?” But also inspire authentic living through balance and embracing both the inner hero and the bully within. Dr. Demartini shares his trauma-to-triumph stories that will leave you in awe. Including two powerful lessons he learned as a high school dropout from one of the world’s most successful entrepreneurs of his time, to the words he lives by that have been the blueprint for humanity, wisdom, and love.
CHAPTERS/KEY MOMENTS
0:00 Intro
0:10 Human Potential Through Emotional Intelligence
03:38 Imposter Syndrome, the Ego for Authenticity
07:17 Self-Judgment and Behavior
16:08 Lesson in Wisdom and Courage
21:54 Creating Original Ideas for Humanity
29:09 Free Masterclasses with Dr. Demartini
31:00 Essentials of Emotional Intelligence Book
32:50 Unlocking Your Inner Genius
38:47 Self-Talk for Success
42:48 Authenticity and Self-Acceptance
46:25 The Power of Gratitude and Love
56:28 Life's Balance and Self-Confidence
CONNECT WITH DR. DEMARTINI
https://drdemartini.com/ or @drjohndemartini
Essentials of Emotional Intelligence Book (available on Amazon May 2024
CONNECT WITH HILARY
https://www.instagram.com/hilaryrusso
https://www.youtube.com/hilaryrusso
https://www.facebook.com/hilisticallyspeaking
https://www.tiktok.com/@hilisticallyspeaking
https://www.hilaryrusso.com/podcast
Music by Lipbone Redding https://lipbone.com/
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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
(Full Transcript https://www.hilaryrusso.com/podcast)
00:00 - Dr. John Demartini (Guest)
Every symptom in our physiology, every symptom in our psychology, every symptom in our sociological connections, in our relationships, even in our business transactions. Our feedback mechanisms trying to get us back to authenticity, where we have equanimity within ourselves and equity between ourselves and others, so we can create a transaction that has a sustainable, fair exchange, where we maximize our potential. So we understand that, no matter what's going on, it's on the way for that objective, not in the way.
00:30 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Am I unlocking my greatest human potential? Think about that question just for a moment, because that's where we're going today. Sit with it for a moment and then think about that, because you're about to meet somebody who can challenge you with that question and help you find the answer. He is not your typical expert. He has a unique blend of wisdom and wit and insight, and he's dedicated his life to unraveling the mysteries of human behavior and helping people, including himself, discover that human potential. Thank you so much for joining us here. As I mentioned, you are a world leading human behavior specialist. You're a philosopher and international speaker, multi bestselling author and founder of the Demartini Method, which is a revolutionary tool in modern psychology, and it is just such a pleasure and a joy to have you here to share more about what you do and how you hold space in this world. So thank you.
01:32 - Dr. John Demartini (Guest)
Thank you. What a great intro. Thank you.
01:35 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Well, I've been really tapping into everything you're sharing and you talk a lot about, most recently the emotional intelligence side of things with your most recent book, and I want to touch on that because you really have made such a significant difference in how people are truly transforming their own lives. So let's go there first. What is making this book, this most recent book, the Essentials of Emotional Intelligence, different from all these other amazing pieces of literature you've written in the past?
02:28 - Dr. John Demartini (Guest)
not always appreciate themselves, not love themselves, because of the emotional vicissitudes and volatilities that they allow themselves to participate in. I'll give an example. You see somebody walking down the street. You meet them and you think, wow, they're more intelligent than me, or maybe they're more achieving, successful than me, or maybe wealthier, or maybe they're more, have a stable relationship, or maybe they're more of a leader or more they're physically fit or more inspired.
02:59
And then you put them a bit on a pedestal because you're conscious of the upsides and blind and subjectively biased and unconscious of the downsides. And then you beat yourself up and minimize yourself and then you're not honoring your magnificence Because you're comparing yourself to others instead of comparing your daily actions to your own values. Or you might meet somebody and you look down on them and think I'm superior to them, I'm too proud to admit what I see in them, inside me, and you'll now put them down intellectually or in business or finance or family or social or physical or spiritual. And then you now put them in the pit and exaggerate yourself. Anytime we put some in a pedestal and minimize ourselves or put people in a pit and exaggerate ourselves, we're not being ourselves. We've got an imposter syndrome. We've got a facade, a persona, a mask that we're wearing the superiority complex, the inferiority complex, the puffed up, the beat up.
04:03 - Hilary Russo (Host)
And as long as we do that, we're in a state of becoming, not our authentic state of being. I love that you touch on that state of the becoming versus the being, because a lot of times I'll say are you being, are you in a state of being or a state of doing? But using the word becoming is is something that is really resonating with me. And going back to the idea of the imposter syndrome, I think we're hearing a lot more about that now and I imagine that's because we live in this global village where everything is right at the touch of our fingertips, you know. So we're infiltrated with so much information and comparison game that it could be very detrimental, whether you're a child or an adult.
04:40 - Dr. John Demartini (Guest)
Well, we're not here to compare ourselves to others. We're here to compare our own daily actions to what's most meaningful to us, and how congruent are we with what's really priority? But the second we put people on pedestals or pits, we distorted our views, subjectively, of them and we simultaneously created the symptoms in ourselves to let us know that simultaneously created the symptoms in ourselves to let us know that All of the physiological symptoms that we generate genetically, epigenetically or autonomically are feedback mechanisms to guide us back to authenticity. And when we puff ourselves up, we tend to activate our narcissistic side, because we feel superior and we tend to project our values and expect others to live in our values, which creates futility to humble us. Period, we tend to project our values and expect others to live in our values, which creates futility to humble us. And anytime we minimize ourselves and exaggerate them, we tend to go into our altruistic persona and we try to sacrifice for them, which is futile because we can't sustain it. So both of those are feedback mechanisms that are futility, that allow us to go back to who we are.
05:42
Every symptom in our physiology, every symptom in our psychology, every symptom in our sociological connections, in our relationships, even in our business transactions, our feedback mechanisms, trying to get us back to authenticity, where we have equanimity within ourselves and equity between ourselves and others, so we can create a transaction that has a sustainable, fair exchange, where we maximize our potential. So we understand that, no matter what's going on, it's on the way for that objective, not in the way, and we transcend our fantasies of our amygdala of avoiding pain and seeking pleasure and only going to one-sided realities. As the Buddha says, the desire for that which is unobtainable and the desire to avoid that which is unavoidable is a source of human suffering. But when we finally realize that there's a balance of life and there's nothing to get rid of in yourself and there's nothing to try to go and find in yourself, it's already present and you embrace it in yourself and not compare it to somebody else, because you won't honor it in yourself when you're comparing what you think it needs to be in you with somebody else, what?
06:43 - Hilary Russo (Host)
you think it needs to be in you with somebody else, For those out there that are hearing you and want so desperately I don't even want to say desperately, but are really open to the possibility of the neuroplasticity of the brain right, being able to really truly change your thoughts, change your life, kind of thing. How are there easy steps to go about that approach? If they're stuck in the imposter syndrome, if they are on the pedestal or the pit, there must be a simple step to take first.
07:17 - Dr. John Demartini (Guest)
Yes, well, I've been fascinated by this, for I've been teaching 51 years, so I've been doing it a bit. And you know, there's a statement in Romans 2.1 of the New Testament not that that is the ultimate source by any means, it's just a source but it says that beware of judging other people, for whatever you see in them, you do the same thing. So I was 40-something years ago. I found myself when I was saying something about other people. I found myself talking to myself Whatever I was saying to them and being adamant about. I was thinking I'm really talking to myself, trying to convince myself of what I'm saying to them. Isn't it interesting. So, instead of waiting for people to push my buttons, I decided to go to the Oxford English Dictionary and underline every possible human behavioral trait that could be found. Now Gordon Halport did the same thing years earlier. I didn't know about that at the time, but he must have been as neurotic as I was, because I went through every one and underlined every one of them.
08:19
In the book I found 4,628 character traits of human beings. Then what I did is I put an initial of the individual out to the side of the margin of the dictionary. Who is it that I know that displays this trait to the furthest degree. So if I saw somebody that was generous, who is the most generous? If I saw somebody that was inconsiderate, who is the most inconsiderate In my perception? These are my distortions, but I put the names out there. Once I put the name next to each of those, I then asked myself John, go to a moment where and when you perceive yourself displaying or demonstrating this particular trait. And I had to be honest with myself because I knew that I did because you only react to things on the outside that represent parts of yourself you haven't loved. So if you're resentful to somebody, they're reminding you that you're too proud to admit you've done it. They're reminding you of something you're feeling ashamed of and they're bringing it out. The reason you want to avoid them is because you don't want to dissociate away from what you're judging in yourself. So I went through there and I found every one of those traits inside myself to the same degree, quantitatively and qualitatively, as I saw in them. And I didn't stop until I saw it which was waking up intuition and unconscious information about me and took out the subjective bias and allowed me to see myself objectively and I realized I was hero and villain, and saint and sinner, and I had every one of those traits. I had all pairs of opposites.
09:53
Heraclitus, 5th century BC, said there's a unity of opposites in all of us. And it was Wilhelm Watt, in the 1895 Father Experimental Psychology, that said that there's a simultaneous contrast in all people. When they become aware of it, they're fully self-actualized. So nothing's missing At the level of the soul, nothing's missing At the level of the senses. Things appear to be missing. The things that appear to be missing are the things you're too proud or too humble to admit that you see in others, inside yourself, and pure, reflective awareness, which allows true loving intimacy, allows you to realize that whatever you see is you. So the first thing to help you transcend the vicissitudes and the volatilities of the incomplete awareness is to take the time to go and look at where you do the same thing. That's just one of many steps, and when I did that I found all 4,628 traits. I sat and I documented where I had them all. So that means that no matter what anybody said about me, it was true, but maybe not in the context they were projecting, but I owned it and I found out that any trait you don't own is a trait that people push your buttons with, but when you own it, you go.
11:08
Yes, sometimes I'm this way, sometimes I'm that If I walked up to somebody and I said you're always nice, you're never mean, you're always kind, you're never cruel, you're always positive, never negative, they would go. Not exactly, their intuition would point out the times when they've been the other and they'd immediately be thinking about the time when they're the opposite of that. If I said you're always mean, you're never nice, you're always cruel, you're never kind, always stingy, never generous, they'd go. No, that's not true either. But if I said sometimes you're nice, sometimes you're mean, sometimes you're kind, sometimes you're cruel, they'd go. That's me, because we know innately, with certainty, that we have a unity of pairs of opposites and when you can embrace both sides of those and don't try to get rid of half of yourself, you finally can love yourself. But the futility of trying to get rid of half of yourself is going to undermine it.
11:52
So the first step in transcending, because anything you infatuate with or resent occupies space and time in your mind and runs your life, and you can't even sleep at night when you're highly infatuated or resentful, because your mind is intruded by these incomplete awarenesses and it's creating symptoms to let you know you're not loving and not whole. You're playing part in the posture and your symptoms are giving you feedback to let you know that to help you. So when I went through and I owned all those traits, I noticed that there was more poise, more presence, more productivity. Noticed that there was more poise, more presence, more productivity, more able to be prioritized and not influenced by other people's opinions, and able to. You know, I'd rather have the whole world against me than my own soul. I was able to listen to my soul, the state of unconditional love, not the imposter syndrome, because if you put people in pedestals you'll minimize. If you put people in pitch, you can exaggerate, and those are becoming, instead of being so you get to be being when you own all your traits. So that's the first little step.
13:05
1947, he said it's not that we don't know so much, we know so much. That isn't so. We've been taught moral hypocrisies. Alistair McIntyre, in his book on the history of ethics, shows that we've been given a bunch of ideals that nobody lives by, but everybody thinks they're supposed to, and then they beat themselves up and because they do. They brain offload decisions to outer authorities, and the outer authorities set up the moral hypocrisies for ability to control people as a strategy. So I realized that it's not that we don't know so much. We know so much. That isn't so. So it's time to confront the fantasies and idealisms and the unrealistic expectations and to look at things in a broader perspective. In a broad mind, it's neither positive or negative. In a narrow mind, it's neither positive or negative. In a narrow mind, it's either positive or negative.
13:48
So I started to go and ask the trait that I listed on the encyclopedia did I interpret it as a positive trait or a negative trait? And if I interpret it as a positive trait, I then asked what are the downsides of the trait? Until I found enough drawbacks to see both sides? And if I saw it as a negative trait, what are the upsides to it? Until I saw both sides? Because I realized that you may infatuate with a guy. You may meet this guy. He's highly intelligent, ooh. He's an aphrodisiac. He turns me on, he's so intelligent, ooh. But then you go. But he's argumentative, he thinks he's right, he knows it all, he doesn't want to listen, he wants to always win in a fight of argument. And then you go oh, there's downsides to that.
14:27
But because I was infatuated and fantasizing about how good it was, I was blind, I minimized myself, I sacrificed to get with this guy. I feared his loss and I disempowered myself until I saw both sides. And when I saw both sides, he didn't control me. I gave myself power, my power back. In the process of doing it, I went through the 4,628 traits and looked for the upsides to what I thought was down, the down to what was up, until I saw that it was neither positive nor negative. And then I transcended the moral hypocrisies that I'd been indoctrinated by, which was the dogma, and I got to see that there was nothing but love. All else was illusion, because love is the synthesis and synchronicity of complementary opposites, which is the state of being, which is our spiritual path, as Hagel says oh, fascinating.
15:18 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I love this conversation so much. I'm just sitting here and I'm thinking with such wisdom that you have, with over 50 years of studying, which everything that you're sharing here on the show in just a small period of time. I'd love to know who is your inspiration Like, who helped you come to this place, because I know you share personally that you had your own story even as a high school dropout, as someone who had his own challenges in his youth. Who truly was your inspiration to move you into the space of becoming and being?
15:58 - Dr. John Demartini (Guest)
Well, I don't know if there's one, there's probably 30,000.
16:03 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Maybe a couple of your favorites.
16:08 - Dr. John Demartini (Guest)
When I was a young boy, I left home and I left home at 13. At 14, I hitchhiked from Houston, texas, to California. On that hitchhike I was confronted by three cowboys. In El Paso, texas, I had a headband, a Hawaiian shirt on, some shorts, some sandals and I had a surfboard. And I was hitchhiking to California. I got confronted by three cowboys. Cowboys and surfers didn't get along in those days, 1968.
16:39
I was walking through downtown because the freeway wasn't in those days. You had to go through the downtown and three cowboys lined up across the front of me and they were going to not let me through. They didn't like long-haired hippie kids. I didn't know what to do. I couldn't outrun them, I couldn't go in the store, I couldn't go in the street. I had to confront them and somehow a great ingenious idea came to me. I looked like a wild animal and barked like some wild wolf and dog. Okay, now that that's talking about genius. Now that was that low level genius. So I did and the guys moved aside. They moved aside and they let me through the sidewalk and I'm growling at him with my and they let me through.
17:26
As I came on the other side there was a guy on the street corner leaning on a lamppost, trying to compose himself from laughing so hard, because he just saw what I did. And he comes up behind me and he puts his arm on top of my shoulder and he said, sonny, that's the funniest dang thing I've ever seen. You took them cowpokes like a pro. Can I buy you a cup of coffee? And I said, sir, I don't drink coffee. Can I get you a Coca-Cola? And I said yes, sir.
17:53
So he took me to a little malt shop and we're swiveling on these things and I had a little Coke with this guy. He was 62 years old at the time but he seemed older, because when you're 14, that seems old. Now it seems young. I'm 70 almost. So I listened to him and he said you finished with your Coke? I said yes, sir. He said then follow me, I have something to teach you.
18:16
So he took me two blocks, another two blocks up these steps to the downtown El Paso library. We asked the lady at the information booth if she could keep my surfboard and my little duffel bag there watched while we went too library. We asked the lady at the information booth if she could keep my surfboard and my little duffel bag there, watched while we went to the library. We go down these steps, walk a ways up these little steps and sat there in front of a table and he said just sit here, young man.
18:36
He went off into the bookshelves, he came back with two big books, put them on the table and sat catty corner to me and he said, son, there's two things I want to teach you. You have to promise me that you will remember these things and never forget them. I said yes, sir. He said number one don't ever judge a book by its cover. I said yes, sir. And he says let me tell you why.
19:02
Young man, you probably think I'm some old guy on the street, some old bum, but, young man, I'm one of the wealthiest men in the world. I have everything that money can buy. I've got planes and boats and businesses and homes and companies, everything that money can buy. He says so don't ever judge a book by its cover, because he can fool you. I said yes, sir. Then he grabbed my hand and he stuck them on top of the two books, and it was Plato and Aristotle. And he said to me young man, you learn how to read. You learn how to read, boy. I said, yes, sir, and he said and here's why they can take away your possessions. People can die, but there's only two things they can never take away from you, and that is your love and your wisdom. So you gain the wisdom of love and you gain the love of wisdom, because that's something that nobody can ever take away from you and that will accumulate through your life. You promise me you'll never, forget that young man.
20:10
My cufflinks today say love and wisdom. It turned out it was Howard Hughes.
20:16 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Oh wow, how many times have you told that story and had that response? That's pretty.
20:26 - Dr. John Demartini (Guest)
Not that many times, but oh, I feel honored. He was doing an El Paso natural gas deal with El Paso Natural Gas for a brewery he was building in Austin, Texas. This is right before he went to Las Vegas with his germaphobic outcome.
20:46 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I mean, that's incredible.
20:48 - Dr. John Demartini (Guest)
At 17, I met a guy named Paul Bragg. He told me that he says we have a body, we have a mind and we have a soul, and the body must be directed by the mind and the mind must be guided by the soul to maximize who we are. And he says you want to set goals for yourself, your family, your community, your city, your state, your nation, your world and beyond for 100 to 120 years, because by the time you grow up you'll be living to 100 years. This is a 1972. And he said what you see, what you say, what you see, what you say, what you think, what you feel and the actions you take determine your destiny. So if you take command of your life and don't let others take command of your life, you can create a life by design, not duty, and you give yourself permission to shine, not shrink, and you can live in a sense ontologically as a state of being, instead of deontologically as a state of becoming. So he had an impact on me when I was 17. Then I made it to age 23.
21:54
I made a guy named Lakishwaram. He had six PhDs at 35 years old PhDs at 35 years old already six PhDs and I got to mentor under this guy and learn from this guy, and it was just an amazing breadth of knowledge this man had. And he asked me one day to a question. He asked a question, he answered it and then he said are you certain about your answer? And I said, well, no, is that an answer that's accurate? He says yes, it is. You know inside, trust yourself. Whenever you minimize yourself to others, you'll offload the decision and think they know better than you. Find your core competency where you have highest on your values, where you have the greatest epistemological pursuit, and honor that and stick to your core competence and then do something in your life that fulfills what's core competent and you will excel and do something great with your life. So I have had, I've been blessed to study all of the great classics, both Eastern and Western mysticism, from the Vedanta to Buddhist teachings to all the Greek philosophers. I've slayed all the Nobel Prize winners, anybody who has had any global influence that's done anything amazing I've devoured, and one thing that I'm certain about, that the originators of the various disciplines of life are the people I've learned the most from, the people who gave themselves permission to be an unborrowed visionary, and not somebody that's borrowing and copying, but somebody who is actually an originator. See, I've said since I was about 20, I create original ideas that serve humanity. I create original ideas that serve humanity.
23:38
I also said I learned something from Albert Einstein. Albert Einstein said I'm not a man of my family or my community or my city or my state or even my nation. I'm a citizen of the world. So I've since I was 18 years old I want to be a citizen of the world. Pictet has said that.
23:54
Socrates said that I could go down the list of people that understood that they didn't want to be localized, they wanted to be non-locally entangled with the universe. So I live on a ship called the world. It goes to every country around the world. I've said since I was 20 to 21 years old the universe is my playground, the world is my home. Every country is a room in the house, every city is a platform to share my heart and soul. My life is dedicated to love and wisdom and doing whatever I can to expand awareness and potential and the involvement of human consciousness, which has already evolved. It's just us waking up to it and do whatever I can to do that, and I do that seven days a week because I can't think of anything else I'd rather be doing.
24:34 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Like what is the idea of true originality.
24:37 - Dr. John Demartini (Guest)
Well, you distill and then you integrate into oneness the information, you link it to what you value most. Aristotle had a thing he called the telos, which is the study of which is teleology was the study of meaning and purpose. When I was 23 years old, I realized I asked the question what is it that makes a difference between people that walk their talk and limp their life, people that do what they say and not? And I was fascinated by what the distinction is, and I found that people who set goals and objectives true objectives, not fantasies that are aligned and congruent with what they truly value most, what their life demonstrates is truly most important to them, they increase the probability of original thinking, and original thinking comes when you're willing to pursue challenges that inspire you. The moment you pursue challenges that inspire you, and the greatest challenge to inspire you, are the ones that serve the greatest number of people, the problems that serve the greatest number of people. You know it's interesting. Elon Musk is a good example of this. He finds what's the biggest problems on the planet and he goes and finds a way of solving them.
25:50
I have a girlfriend that I dated for a while. My wife passed away and she was at Harvard and Oxford and Cornell. She went to four major universities. A very bright lady and she went to the professor at Harvard Her name is Trish Went to the professor at Harvard and this is a time when there was still a little bit of discrepancy between males and females right, it's starting to get a little bit more even but at the time it was still polarized. And she said I want to be able to create a massive business. And he said well, if you do, you need to find the biggest challenge that the society is facing and find a more efficient solution. She said, okay.
26:35
So she went back to her country, which was South Africa, and she saw that the energy crisis was the biggest one, because ESCOM in South Africa was constantly rationing energy and had a bit of corruption and it wasn't really serving the people to the fullest. So she says I'm going to find a solution to the energy crisis. When she did, she concluded that nuclear was probably the most efficient probably the most efficient. So she, as an individual, raised the funds and borrowed the money to build a private nuclear power plant. Now no one can say that she's the only one that I know in the world that's pulled that off. Most of these are governments that do so. She ended up building a nuclear power plant, selling it back to the government and doing quite well. Now her husband at the time disowned her and divorced her because he didn't want to have the debt, because this is billions.
27:28
So she took on the risk to solve the problems at the time. When she solved that, she said what's the next issue in the country? Transportation. People are walking everywhere. They can't afford transportation. So she decided to build commuter trains.
27:45
But the other thing was unemployment and uneducation. So what she did is she did an aerial view of South Africa. She looked at all the problems where the most poverty was, where jobs were needed and these kind of things. She looked at where the rail was and she rerouted rails into the areas that had the most poverty. She set up educational systems to educate them for engineering and hired these people to build trains and commuter trains and put thousands of people to work and created a computer train manufacturing system in three major locations to transform the education, the economics, job opportunities which reduce crime issues and solve the problem.
28:29
So people who care about humanity, that are dedicated to finding major problems, the greater the problem they get, the more fulfillment they get in life and the more ingenious and original creative thinking comes out of them to solve it. But if you don't have a big enough problem that inspires you to solve, don't expect genius to emerge. It's there in all of us, but we sometimes want to live in our amygdala, avoiding pain and seeking pleasure and avoiding challenge and seeking ease, that we don't go after. The challenges that inspire us, that make a difference, and those are the ones that wake up the genius and creativity of original thinking.
29:09 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Before we go any further, I do want to mention if you're just overwhelmed with this unbelievable conversation we're having, please know that he has been so gracious to offer a number of free masterclasses and I'm going to put those links in the listen notes of this podcast episode of HIListically Speaking so that you can pick what look. I would say, download them all, because we're talking about the law of attraction. We're talking about how to increase and deserve that level of finally getting what you want in your life. All of these free gifts, the power of your full advantage and potential. The list goes on and on.
29:42
I'm not going to run down them all. You're going to, just you're going to go to the list of notes, you're going to see what's up, what is there for you, and take your time. You know I say it all the time on this podcast Every guest I have is like a masterclass, and here you are offering additional master classes in addition to this conversation. So let me just say thank you so much, so grateful, for everything that you are sharing. It is just a wealth of information, from your own experiences and your own growth to how you are serving others in this world from that original, authentic self that you present here today.
30:22 - Dr. John Demartini (Guest)
so thank you for that uh, thank you for having give me the opportunity to share with people, because without the people, what good am I?
30:31 - Hilary Russo (Host)
absolutely. We need each other in this world, right? So your book, the ascent the essentials of emotional intelligence, is your latest book. Where are you hoping this book will go that perhaps other books haven't, from somebody who has released what close to 50 books, if not more?
30:48 - Dr. John Demartini (Guest)
Yeah, I've written about 300, but there's about 50 that are paperbacks. Okay, the mission of this book was to give some practical tools on how to stabilize the emotional vicissitudes, the impulsive and instinctual seeking and avoidings that distract us from being present, and how to awaken the four brains executive center, the medial prefrontal cortex, which, according to Scientific American in the October edition of 2022, was called the seat of the self. It's a neural correlate for the seat of the self. It's not our self, but it's the neural correlate. And when we allow that to occur, when we live by priority, that blood glucose and oxygen goes into that forebrain, activates that area. That area has nerve fibers down into the amygdala, nucleus, acumens and palladium, and it uses glutamate and GABA to neutralize the impulses and instincts and dampens the volatility that distract us into the imposter syndrome, so we can be our magnificent self.
31:58
So that's why, if we don't fill our day with high priority actions that inspire us, that integrate us, our day is designed to fill up with low priority distractions that don't to create chaos in our life, to get us guided back to what is authentic. All the symptoms are trying to get us back to authenticity and a lot of people think there's something wrong with them, but actually they're misinterpreting what this feedback is offering them. Their body and mind is doing what it's designed to do to get them back to authenticity. And when you actually go back and prioritize your life, dedicate to what's highest in priority, delegate what's lowest in priority and delegate to those people that would be inspired to do what you want to delegate, so you give job opportunities and help the economy and help people fulfill their lives. You liberate yourself from the distractions of impulses and instincts and the imposter syndrome. That's what the book's for.
32:50 - Hilary Russo (Host)
And is this a book that is relatively easy to read for those who might be approaching this kind of mindset, maybe taking a deep dive and making some changes in their own lives? Is this the first book that they should look at, or are there other books?
33:07 - Dr. John Demartini (Guest)
There's many books. Everybody when you go to the bookstore you find the one that resonates at that time and 10 weeks later you got another one. I have many books that you could go through and scan and see which ones resonate with you. But I believe that because I have an editor to help me with it, because he would, you know, bring it to where it's. I don't understand that. Clarify it, kind of thing. I think between us we've tried to make the book as understandable as we can.
33:34
But at the same time I learned many years ago I've been teaching speed learning programs and how to wake up. You know photographic memories and genius and all kinds of stuff in people for many years now. And what people do is they have a conscious self and an unconscious self, right the explicit and implicit, and most people read verbally, not visually, and they're used to phonemes and they're used to you know what they say and only reading and learning as fast as they can speak and as a result of it, anytime they go beyond that speech speed, which is two to 300 words for most people. They go. I didn't get it, but what I've learned is that it's all there in your visual system. Your thalamus filters out certain information, but it's still there. And then when you need it and the information is needed and it helps you fulfill a purpose, it comes from the unconscious up to the conscious level. So I teach people to just take in the information and don't question whether you got it, just take it in, look at it, see it, because then all of a sudden, when you're in a conversation and somebody asks you a question, where that information is needed out, it will come, but you won't need it, you won't even hear it, didn't even know, you knew it until that moment. When you do, then you realize that we're so we limit ourselves to our conscious awareness, which is a small portion of what we are capable of taking in, and then we don't honor the other part of our life that knows. And so I'm a firm believer just delivering the information and letting people trust what they learn, to trust both sides of themselves and to embrace it, because we have a capacity to learn way farther than even most people ever imagined. I mean, I'm absolutely certain I read 11,000 pages in one day and absorbed it, and people start asking questions on it and they go.
35:33
I don't think I didn't know how you could do that and I said because I didn't question it. I stopped questioning what I learned and believing that it's only what I got consciously. And then, when you asked me the question, whatever was unconscious was there for me. So a lot of people don't realize that they have a genius. There's no uniqueness. Everyone has a genius and it can be awakened and I've been working on that. The first statement that I ever got from Paul Bragg is because I told him I didn't know how to read. I didn't read until I was 18. I didn't know. I was learned and disabled and I was told I would never be able to read. He told me say every single day, say to yourself I'm a genius and I apply my wisdom.
36:17 - Hilary Russo (Host)
So I did.
36:19 - Dr. John Demartini (Guest)
I didn't know what that even meant. I asked my mom. When I saw my mom, I said what the heck is a genius? She says people like Albert Einstein and Da Vinci. I said well then, get me everything you can about those guys.
36:28
I later learned that a genius is one who listens to their inner voice and follows their inner vision and obeys and lets the voice and vision on the inside be louder than all opinions on the outside, and then they master the path of their life. They're on their dharmic path, not their karmic wheel, and they liberate themselves from the bondage of all the infatuations, resentments, all the exaggerations of pride and shame that stop them from being authentic when they exaggerate and minimize other people through judgment. So we have a genius inside and it's spontaneously ready to come out, but we don't give it permission to come out because we're too preoccupied with what others think and how we're positioned. And there was two Nobel Prize winners that got their Nobel Prize in 2016 on the place in grid cells and in January February of 2020.
37:23
Fantastic article on that in the Scientific American showing how we socially put ourselves in pecking orders and hierarchies in society because we disown parts and if we went and we go and take the most powerful people on the planet and go find what do I admire in them, what do I dislike in them, and own them all, we reposition ourselves and we awaken the same playing field that they're playing on and I've proven that in thousands of cases. We have people that have now Grammy award-winning, people that we're just barely seeing, and we got people that are doing amazing things economically, because there's nothing missing in us and fulfillment is the realization. There's nothing missing, never was missing, but we were too busy, preoccupied with being too proud or too humble to admit what we see in others, inside us. And when we finally embrace our hero and villain in all parts of ourselves and not try to get rid of half of ourselves, we finally awaken that magnificent genius that's sitting there dormant, ready to emerge spontaneously into inspired action of creativity and origination. The second we be authentic.
38:30 - Hilary Russo (Host)
It so comes back to balance Everything you're saying, like the yin, the yang. It's so balanced and I think you're opening my mind to think of things more than just like work-life balance, and I think you're opening my mind to think of things more than just like work-life balance, and it's so much more. And what you just said about the inner voice because truly this is the loudest voice in the room is our own right. And how are we speaking to ourselves? What is that inner bully doing? That's stepping up on the playground constantly. It's truly embodying the beauty that exists within each and every one of us. The genius remark you said. I would love for you to reiterate that statement, that conversation you had with your mom, because, if anything, that is something that should be up on everyone's wall, your mirror, that thing you see every day, a reminder to yourself of what follows those words. I am. I am a genius. And you said something else. Could you share that Cause? That was brilliant.
39:29 - Dr. John Demartini (Guest)
Well, that that that came from Paul Bragg. He gave it to me when I was 17. Well, I just turned 18. At the time he said cause? I told him I didn't know how to read, how am I going to be a teacher? I wanted to travel the world and teach. And he said and I thought that's what I saw in my dream. And he says just say to yourself every single day. I'm a genius and I apply my wisdom. Said every single day, until the cells of your body tingle with it, and so with the world. I didn't know how to read at the time. I learned how to read after I started saying that every day.
40:01 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Well, I'm sure there was an inner dialogue you were having where the words on paper didn't matter as much as the words that you were telling yourself.
40:08 - Dr. John Demartini (Guest)
Well, the thing is, as many times many people have this internal dialogue, self-depreciation, but they don't realize that they're addicted to praise is the source of it. The addicted to fantasy is the source of it. There's a thing called a moral licensing effect and I hope everybody looks that up. And when everybody's done it without knowing it, most people have gone out and they've worked out. They went to the gym, they worked out, they really did a workout and they kind of got their abs looking good and they got their butt looking good and then all of a sudden they go. Well, I gave myself permission, I can eat more chocolate, I can eat more food and I can drink some more wine tonight. That's the licensing effect. The moment you do something you're proud of, you give yourself permission to do something you're ashamed of. Now that same truth.
40:54
This is a homeostatic mechanism. I've been studying interceptive homeostatic mechanisms in biological systems for decades and what is interesting is the second you go above equilibrium, like the temperature goes up, you create sweating to bring it back, and the second you go below and it's cold, you create shivering to bring it back. We have a built-in homeostatic interceptive feedback inside our consciousness and anytime we get a neurochemistry that's imbalanced. The pre and post-synaptic brain will automatically rebalance it and attempt to balance it. And so we create for every memory an anti-memory and we create it and we'll dissociate. If it's a traumatic memory, we'll dissociate and create a fantasy, and if it's a fantasy thing, we'll create a paranoia to get a balance, to keep the homeostasis balanced. So the second we're beating ourselves up. Most people go, oh, get rid of that, get rid of that, get rid of that. And they can't get rid of it as long as they're building themselves up with fantasies. And so the second they compare themselves to others and put people on pedestals and go, oh, I want to be like that and set up a fantasy. And then they say only these positive things about themselves. They automatically have to self-depreciate to counterbalance it. So a balanced orientation you don't have that polarity, You've integrated the polarity.
42:08
So I don't try to be positive all the time, or nice all the time, or peaceful all the time. I'm a human being and I have a set of values. When I live by my highest values, I'm most objective and neutral. When I'm living by lower values, I become more volatile. That's why anybody that does something that's really high priority during the day, they're resilient and adaptable. Because they're neutral, because they don't feel the loss of things they infatuate with, they don't feel the gain of things. They resent the moment they balance themselves and bring themselves up and live by priority, they're more neutral. But if not, they're more polarized. When they get polarized and they end up fearing the loss of the things they infatuate with and fearing the gain of that, they're now distracted.
42:48
So I basically learned many years ago to ask questions. That rebalanced it and I realized that the second I got addicted to praise, criticism hurt, and the second I puffed myself up. I attract challenge, criticism, distractions.
43:06
There's a thing called depurposing and repurposing. The second, you get proud and think you're successful. You depurpose, you give yourself permission to do low priority things and the purpose of that is to get you back into authenticity because you're puffed up and then, if you go down, you go okay, now I overate. So now the next morning I'm now going to get up and jog. I haven't been jogging for weeks, but now I overate, I'm going jogging.
43:28
So you give yourself to repurpose, so you have a built-in homeostatic mechanism to guide you to authenticity. But you're constantly being taught what isn't so, as Dirac said, about how you're supposed to be one-sided. Get rid of half of yourself, Be nice, don't mean, be kind, don't be cruel, be positive, don't be negative. And so you're set up like I got to get rid of half of myself and the whole personal development journey out. There is misleading people into thinking they have to get rid of themselves to love themselves, and the truth is integrating and embracing both sides of yourself is what liberates you and makes you realize the magnificence of who you are and the contributions you're making.
44:07 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Now you don't build yourself up.
44:08 - Dr. John Demartini (Guest)
You don't build yourself up. You don't beat yourself up. People come up to me, and sometimes in interview, and they say, dr Demartini, how did you become successful? And I go I'm not successful. And they go what it says?
44:22
I have no desire for success because my addiction to success is the very thing that creates the fear of failure. I'm a man on a mission and I see success and failure as feedback mechanisms to help me stay focused and authentic. And if I get successful, I'm proud and I do low priority things to get me back down and if I feel like I'm a failure, I go back to high priority things to get me back up. When I'm in the center, I don't even think of success or failure. I think of my mission.
44:48
And that is always a perfect blend between myself and other people, because if I'm thinking of success, I think about myself and I forgot my people, and if I think of a failure, I'm thinking about myself, I forgot my people. But when I'm in perfect balance, I'm thinking of perfect balance, reflective awareness of the people, humanity and myself. As Schopenhauer says, we become our true self to the degree that we make everyone else ourself. It's all us out there, and when we get there, we don't think of success or fair. We think of we're working as a team on the planet. And when we get there, we don't think of success or failure, we think of we're working as a team on the planet period.
45:20 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Thank you so much for that. Thank you for the reminder moment of just a new piece of information for folks to ingest and think about and process and think how they can be both sides and find that center. Find that center Really, it's not even being both sides, it's becoming right. I have some work to do myself, so I really appreciate you and all that you're sharing and just becoming and being, and what I would love to do with you in this moment. I know we have a few seconds left. If you hang with me for just a few seconds, I would love to do a quick game with you and throw out some words that you've shared during this episode and see what the first word is that comes back. A little word association. I love to do with my guests. Do you have a moment?
46:22 - Dr. John Demartini (Guest)
Sure.
46:23 - Hilary Russo (Host)
All right, great. So I'm just going to just go with. The first word that comes to mind is wisdom. Just one word, come back.
46:32 - Dr. John Demartini (Guest)
In my case, it's what I feel is my mission.
46:36 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Mission Okay, and love Same thing Okay, and love Same thing Okay. Venous Same thing World.
46:50 - Dr. John Demartini (Guest)
Destined.
46:52 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Emotions.
46:55 - Dr. John Demartini (Guest)
Feedback systems to the truth of love.
46:58 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Authenticity. Being feedback systems to the truth of love, authenticity being becoming feedback systems to being you're good, I'm going to leave it with this last word, because it is my word of the year and I want to know what your word for balance would be.
47:21 - Dr. John Demartini (Guest)
Equanimity of both mind and body.
47:26 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I want to sit with that one for a moment and I appreciate everything you're sharing, your personal story, your wisdom, your wit and everything you're putting out there into the world while you, while you sail along on the world and I hope at some point I am at a port where you are speaking in person, cause I, I would just really love to be in your personal, your space to really feel that energy, because this is, this is, I'm feeling it right here across the airwaves, that energy, because this is, this is I'm feeling it right here across the airwaves. But I have a feeling it's even more, it's even greater in to be in person with you, where are you next?
48:09 - Dr. John Demartini (Guest)
What's what's on? Where's the ship sailing? Next I go from here. I'm here for till tomorrow. Then I go to La Habla, Brazil, and then I'm off to Rio de Janeiro the carnival starts there, so I'm passing through there and then I quickly run over to Chennai and Mumbai to do three presentations at a Change makers conference Thousands of people will be there and then I run back down to Cape Town to do some filming and also presentations there. And then we sail up to Maputo, Mozambique, and then I quickly run to London to do presentations there.
48:46
And then I get back on a French island and my girlfriend's meeting me in the Seychelles Islands and the Maldives for a little romance Lovely. And then off to India, then Lovely, and then off to India then. And then we go to Sri Lanka and off to Indonesia and Malaysia and Cambodia and Vietnam and those areas. So we circumnavigate the planet and I get off and on, if I have to do live speaking, otherwise I do presentations. But tomorrow I'm in Japan and the next two days I'll be in Australia from the ship here. So I say the universe is my playground, the world is home.
49:22 - Hilary Russo (Host)
On that note, would you have anything you would like to close and share with listeners of the HIListically Speaking podcast?
49:32 - Dr. John Demartini (Guest)
Yeah, can I share a story? I know I go a couple of seconds over, but I think this is.
49:38
Doctor, it is your time and I graciously accept your stories 34 years ago almost 35, I was speaking in San Francisco and I was doing a seven-day program on self-mastery and leadership and one of the ladies there asked if I could, at lunch, go over to the hospital there and meet with a particular patient. And I said, if you get me a bagel to eat on the way there and back because I have to start, I only got an hour. If you can get me there and back in an hour and give me a bagel or something to eat, I'll be glad to. We went over there and there was a. We went into this hospital room and there was a guy that was kind of leaning up in the bed and was sort of half asleep and a motion covered with sores and he was dying of AIDS. And he was didn't look like he had much farther to go. His immune deficiency is pretty collapsed.
50:38
And I sat on the edge of the bed, grabbed his hands. He didn't know who I was and I just looked at him and I said to him please repeat with me what I say no matter what I've done or not done, I'm worthy of love. No matter what I've done or not done, I'm worthy of love. No matter what I've done or not done, I'm worthy of love. And I made him say that and at first he just said the words and about five repetitions he started to cry Because he had accumulated and stored a whole lot of judgments on himself and when we judge ourselves and condemn ourselves, our immune system responds. And so I made him say that until he cried, until he literally leaned over and fell literally onto me. I'm twisted on the bed holding him now on to me. I'm twisted on the bed holding him. Now. There was a nurse there, there was another lady I don't know who, she was administration lady and there was a lady that asked me to come. We're all in tears, we're all just in a moment of grace and authenticity. When you have a tear of gratitude, you have a gamma wave in the brain, you get a moment of authenticity. It's a confirmation. In that moment. He did that and he looked up at me and he said I've never in my life ever felt that or believed or ever said that Thank you. And I said Thank you and we hugged each other and I left, went back to do my prose presentation and didn't know anything about it for a few weeks and finally I got a letter from the lady who asked me to come and a picture. Somehow the man changed his perceptions and rallied.
52:43
I really don't know the limitations of our ability to heal. I've seen things that would be considered less than probable but all I know is that this man rallied. They thought he was going to die. Didn't die Now, I don't know. Maybe he later. I'm sure somewhere down the line he did, but he didn't die in that recent weeks for sure.
53:10
So I wrote a book called Count your Blessings the Healing Power of Gratitude and Love.
53:14
I still believe that that's still one of the great healers on the planet.
53:17
When we're graced by seeing the hidden order of life and we really, truly realize that there's nothing but love, all else was illusion and we've stopped judging ourselves for just a moment and get a glimpse of our real self, that the power of our physiology to normalize and to homeostasis are stored, subconsciously stored imbalances, epigenetic lock-ins, you might say are freed.
53:45
So I just want to end on a story that, in case you've ever judged yourself, just know that no matter what you've done or not done, you're worthy of love and the only reason you're judging yourself is because you're comparing yourself to somebody else's value system Because the decisions you made was based on what you believed at that time were more advantage and disadvantage to you and yours. But if you try to compare it to somebody else, you'll think you're making mistakes, just like if you try to expect others to live in your values. You think they're making mistakes. But maybe there's no mistakes after a while and maybe it's wise to look back a different way and ask how is whatever I've experienced and whatever I've done, how is it helping me fulfill my mission in life? And don't stop until you get a tear of gratitude for whatever you've done or not done. And that is definitely liberating and empowering for any human being, regardless of the situation. It can help relationships, it can help healing, it can help your body, it can help your business.
54:43 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Gratitude and love is still one of the great healers on the planet. I am so in a place of gratitude right now. So thank you, and I can only imagine that those who are tuning in are going to feel that as well. Thank you for leaving those words with people to sit with and think about and remember that we're all geniuses and we're all the gift. Thank you, dr Demartini. Appreciate it.
55:09 - Dr. John Demartini (Guest)
Thank you. Thank you, thank you.
55:12 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I know we have covered a lot of territory during this conversation, but the beauty is you have so many possibilities to connect with Dr Demartini and learn from him yourself, and I'm going to help you with that. I've shared a number of links in the notes of this podcast episode to his free webinars and, of course, to his latest book, essentials of Emotional Intelligence. And once you've had some time to process this, once you've had some time to listen to the show this week, I'm going to suggest that you come back and do it again, because when you give things a listen more than once, you'd be surprised what you unpack the second or the third time or even the fourth. Then, once you have a little time to sit there with it, go ahead and leave a rating or review, or just let me know what you think about this episode, this show on HIListically Speaking and how it has been serving and supporting you, because that's really what this show is about.
56:14
HIListically Speaking is edited by 2MarketMedia with music by Lipone Redding and, of course, listened to by you time and time again. So thank you so much for taking time to tune in and remember this, and you know this is my word of the year. This year. Life is about balance, and you heard Dr Demartini talk about it himself, and you, my, are already the perfect genius in your own right, so embrace that and always remember to be kind to your mind. I love you, I believe in you and I will see you next week.
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How do we navigate the heartache of loss while cherishing the beauty of memories shared with our cherished pets? Join me for an intimate reflection on the enduring impact of my cat, Eliza Doolittle, whose passing after nearly 19 years left a profound mark on my heart. Let’s delve into the love and responsibilities that come with being a pet parenting, finding solace and support within our community during times of grief, and ten life lessons learned from our furry companions. Plus, a chance to share your pet story on an upcoming episode.
FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPTS AVAILABLE
https://www.hilaryrusso.com/podcast
CHAPTERS:
00:00 Intro: The Rainbow Bridge
05:31 The Story of Eliza: The Cat Who Saved Me
09:44 The Grief and Guilt of Euthanasia
12:54 Finding Gratitude Through Grief
17:33 Connection With Pets Beyond the Veil
20:00 Ten Things I Learned from the Life of a Pet
23:21 The Power of Community and Rest
26:30 Share Your Pet Story
27:55 Honoring Unconditional Love
Share your voice and pet story on an upcoming episode:
https://www.speakpipe.com/hilisticallyspeaking
Join the HUG it Out Collective on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/groups/hugitoutcollective
Episodes mentioned on this podcast
Ep 17 Chris Palmore Finding Gratitude After Loss
Ep 128 Are You a Human Being or a Human Doing?
Eliza and Hilary's Blue Buffalo Cat Food Commercials
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Connect with Hilary:https://www.instagram.com/hilaryrusso
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https://www.hilaryrusso.com/podcast
Music by Lipbone: https://lipbone.com/
FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPTS AVAILABLE
https://www.hilaryrusso.com/podcast
00:00 - Hilary Russo (Host)
19 years Seems like a moment in time, but for close to 19 years I was blessed to have a pure shadow of sunshine by my side. On my birthday, however, my sweet Eliza Doolittle decided it was time to take a journey without me, and a light in me dimmed. April 1st, just two days after my birthday and two months shy of 19 years, my five pound sassy calico found her way over the rainbow bridge and something changed in me, which is why I'm sharing this with you, because I have a feeling, if you've ever loved and lost a pet, you're going to resonate with what I'm about to share with you. It took me some time to sit down and record this episode. I have to be honest, I needed some time to step away. To be honest, I needed some time to step away. I needed to process this loss and I really needed to allow myself to see where this was going to hit me, because, while I have had pets my entire life since I was a little girl in fact, I don't really know that many years without having a pet in my home, nothing was quite like Eliza. She was mine and I was hers, and for close to two decades, I made this commitment to protect her, to love her, to care for her, and that came with some responsibilities Responsibilities I have never known before. Responsibilities, responsibilities I have never known before. It was level up, it was different, and the feelings that go along with that kind of responsibility, that kind of love, were different too. So, after sharing with those who are closest with me about her passing my family, my friends, my Hug it Out Collective, even colleagues and clients I realized that community is where we really find our healing, and it's a reminder that we were never alone in this battle. Right, even if the responsibilities are different, even if there are hours and hours alone, even if they were just for us to bear, we're really never doing it all by ourselves, because someone you know or yourself has been through it, and I want to share with you just how common it is.
02:40
It's estimated that more than half of the global population has a pet at home. That's over half a billion dogs and cats, and in the US, 70% of households in 2021 were pet owners, and since the pandemic, the amount of pet adoptions is on the rise, thankfully. So I know I'm not alone when I share that these numbers, no matter what type of pet you have, be it fur, feathers, fins or scales. You likely have, or you have, faced pet loss. And isn't that the rub To know that you will love an animal so much, knowing that it's likely they will leave this world before you and we know that, going into it too right. I know I did, and yet I still loved. And when the time is right, somewhere down the road, I will again, because that's what we do as pet parents. We open our hearts again and again, just not now, not yet. Just not now, not yet.
03:50
So with that in mind, I thought I would share my story about Miss Eliza Doolittle and some thoughts I have about grief, what I've learned from my time with Lizzy Girl, and some possibilities for us as we go forward on this journey, plus a chance for you to share your story on an upcoming episode. And if this episode resonates with you or any of the guests that I've had here on HIListically Speaking, or any of the episodes we've done, I would love for you to do yourself a favor and do me a favor and subscribe wherever you're tuning in and take it one step further Download those episodes that you listen to, because that's going to make it more possible for others to find this show, this episode and these stories that we tell so beautifully on, HIListically Speaking. Of course, I always appreciate your kind words and your thoughtful responses in your comments, wherever you're tuning in, wherever you're listening or watching, whether it's on a podcast platform or on YouTube, and, honestly, now more than ever, I can really use those words and I know others will too. So how did Miss Eliza Doolittle come into my life? It's quite a sweet story. Actually.
04:59
It was Thanksgiving Day, 2005. And I was coming home from Thanksgiving dinner at a friend's house and I was driving along in my old Jeep, grand Cherokee. Louise and I pass a hotel and I noticed something moving as I'm about to pass a storm drain and I noticed it was like a little calico puff and I saw its little mouth opening and closing. And let me tell you, I wasn't going that fast, but it was enough for me to know that there was a kitten that was sitting there by that storm drain and I instantly called my friend who was in the car in front of me and I said I gotta turn around. There is a kitten and I don't think it's going to last the winter if it stays out here. Within 30 seconds to a minute. I had turned around, went into the parking lot because I didn't see the kitten at the storm drain. But I heard her and fortunately I had leftovers in my car and I looked under every car in that hotel parking lot right near the storm drain and there she was, hiding underneath the truck. And somehow, with love and care, I was able to force her to come out from underneath the truck because, well, I imagined she was hungry and I had plenty of turkey. And then I put a towel around her, grabbed her and put her in my car.
06:28
What in the world am I going to do with a kitten? I was not in any kind of a situation to have a cat. I was in a relationship with someone who was highly allergic to cats. So I knew that I had a job to do, and hopefully it would be to find this sweet little kitten a home. But in the two weeks that I had her, nobody came forward. I went to every vet in the area and somehow in those two weeks, those 14 days, I fell in love with this cat and I have a feeling she did the same. So in a way I would say she saved me as much as I saved her, because during that time of my life it was quite difficult what I was going through.
07:12
I guess things just show up for you at just the right time and I always joke that she's the longest relationship I've ever had. She has gone well beyond both of my long-term relationships. She has traveled more miles with me, crossed more states with me and I wouldn't trade it for anything else. She has had books written about her and chapters, artwork, poems, commercials that she's done. Have you ever seen the Blue Buffalo commercial? That's her. She's been on numerous podcasts, including sitting right behind me and sometimes in my lap. She's joined me in private sessions and even showed up while I was professing with my college students. And, yes, she's been the subject of many social media posts. So it's kind of hard to know life with Hilary without Eliza Doolittle.
08:07
But as we know, with the years come slowing down and this past year I started seeing signs of her decline. It was happening slowly. I kind of knew over the last year or two that time with her would be even more precious than it was before. And the past few months things started to accelerate. The cancer in my sweet little Calico was starting to show in her face and I found myself feeling the stress, feeling the sickness. It was a fight or flight for me, much like when you're around a sick family member you feel it, you absorb it and you're constantly on alert. And that was a difficult place to be and it absorbed a lot of my headspace, my mental space and my bandwidth was not where it used to be because so much of my intention was on Eliza.
09:14
So the time came when things really took a turn. On my birthday, March 30th, Eliza told me it was time and my boyfriend, Chris, just happened to be here because we were getting ready to celebrate my birthday that morning. She really made her presence known, that things were really getting difficult. I remember thinking that I don't have this right. You know, I went through a lot of grief before the grief actually set in and grief turned into guilt Because I thought who am I to take away a life? You know, in the perfect world you want your animal, your pet, your fur baby to just kind of curl up in your arms and take its last breath. Naturally right, but that's not the way it always happens and cats are notoriously strong to where they don't really even let you know that they're sick or they have signs of illness.
10:17
That day it was a turning point for me because I saw that she was beginning to suffer and I wasn't really sure how long it would be. And I remember making an agreement in a way with my vet some months prior that this would be a decision that I would need help with, because I really struggled with the guilt of taking that life, still hoping somewhere in the back of my mind that she would just pass on her own. And I said, when it comes to the time where you think that this could be consuming her or taking away her quality of life, I really just need the honesty. And I got that. I got that that day and I had a moment with Eliza that was almost like an approval, you know, I don't really know how to explain it, but I had the weekend with her. The decision was made and lots of emotions were shared.
11:30
The night before, Eliza shared a beautiful salmon dinner with Chris and myself. It was really a beautiful evening, a little candlelight dinner, and she got so many treats and so much love and attention. I don't even know if she can get more than she normally gets, but that night was really special and the morning came and we took her to the vet and she was in my arms and surrounded by her little babies and flowers, and I had my hand on her paws the whole time. Chris was caressing her little face and then, at some point, when I knew that time was close, I had my hand on her heart and there's something really powerful about being witness but also feeling that last heartbeat. It was spiritual, it was beautiful and I don't think I'll ever forget that. But in that moment I felt like I was truly connected to her in a different way as she crossed, and I'm really thankful for that.
12:54
So after all was said and done, I realized I needed to step away a little bit and I was fortunate to spend some time with my boyfriend, chris, and I went to his home in Virginia and just decided to do a little grieving there. It was really a wonderful opportunity for me to go through these stages of grief, and I'm sure there's still more go through these stages of grief and I'm sure there's still more. But I went from the grief to the guilt and then somewhere in there there was a shift to gratitude which took me back a few years, to the time I first wrote about Eliza in a book that was published and it was part of my friend Chris Palmore's book called Dear Gratitude, an anthology, a book that holds space for so many beautiful gratitude stories. And you might remember Chris because he was on episode 17, if , sharing his own grief journey, and it about the loss of his mother and it's interesting how we should circle back to that right. But I was fortunate to share, on page 21 7 of Dear Gratitude, the story of Eliza Doolittle and how she got her name and basically the story you heard here. But I called it Gratitude is Loverly because loverly and my fair lady, if you get the reference, and that's basically how Eliza got her name, because I pretty much found her in a gutter, just like in my Fair Lady, and I thought it was a really beautiful story to share. But I'm so grateful to Chris for giving me that opportunity to share the story of Eliza in his book Dear Gratitude.
14:40
And again, if you are interested in that episode, it is 17. And I'll put that in the podcast notes for you and when it comes down to it, you really have to think about it. It really is all about gratitude, isn't it? In some way or another, gratitude, after all, is part of the Hug it Out way. Right, if you want to join the Hug it Out collective that I have the Facebook group you'll find weekly themes and challenges in a safe place that supports the traumas to triumphs. And let me tell you, this week that group really showed their colors and showed up for me by supporting my grief, my trauma showed their colors and showed up for me by supporting my grief, my trauma. So you can check the notes of this episode to join us in that group and just see for yourself.
15:26
But I do have so much gratitude, so much gratitude for all of you who have been part of her life in one way or another, even those who just saw her on camera for the first time or in a podcast episode maybe her Blue Buffalo commercials, whatever, wherever. I'm just grateful that you connected to her in some way through me. And then, of course, those that I shared this with those closest to me, like my mom. She loved that cat and she used to say, oh, kitty's coming to grandma's house, whenever she would watch her, she would call it the country home and it was really sweet to see the connection they had, because she too loved and lost pets my entire life. So that was something my mom and I shared, you know, and even recently, you know, she became a pet parent again after some time without a pet and I'm really glad she has that. Of course, my boyfriend, chris, for having some bond that I still haven't quite figured out In such a short amount of time on this planet, knowing Eliza. They had a bond like no other. And let me tell you, if you have a calico they're very temperamental, they're very territorial and they're very spicy, but somehow that cat got to his heart and he got to hers and it was really beautiful to see. And I have really good friends, really good friends who have been there for me along the way, and I hope you have that in your life too. If you have loved and lost a pet or lost anything that you've loved in your life to have, that support can be very helpful. I know my vet and everyone who got to know this spicy little calico. I have to say thank you to them for just being there and being a support system and, of course, you just for being here to support me and giving me the permission to press record and share and know that you're tuning in. So thank you for that.
17:33
But back to this week. During this week I found myself watching a lot of YouTube videos on how to connect with your pets from beyond, how to change your frequency and be present. I did a lot of writing, I did a lot of soul searching and I really spent my time in Virginia disconnecting to reconnect Because, like I said, said so much of my emotional bandwidth was really absorbed by Eliza's illness and not really being able to separate from that and it was kind of like giving me the ability to take a breath that I hadn't taken in a really long time. But I had a moment. It happened when I was at Chris's house. It was the first morning I was there after we arrived and there was a trundle bed in the guest room where Eliza loved to sleep in the drawer which was filled with linens. She really made that area her home. In fact I'm not really even sure that the linens have been touched in there because it was just so Eliza right, but I remember that morning opening a drawer and I could still see tiny little calico hairs in there Not too much because she was a very clean cat, but you could see the impression from her body that was on top of a blanket that she had probably been sleeping on and my heart just sank.
19:15
I remember just being on my knees and putting my hands in the drawer and putting my head down and I sat there for a minute just being so grateful to have her in my life. And I don't know how and I can't explain it, but I felt something brush my ankle, my leg, as if it was her little tail that was brushing by. I was wearing shorts, so it didn't quite make sense to me. There was no fabric around me and I just kind of went huh and smiled and just let it be. You know, not everything has to be explained, and I realized that some things just don't need to be explained, right, they just are just like our pets, they don't look for explanations, they just are there, awesome, authentic, organic selves. So it got me thinking on how, the last 19 years, what I've witnessed with Eliza has been the utmost amount of awesomeness and, frankly, with the other animals that have been in my life as well, and the lessons that I've learned as a pet parent, and I really had to stop and think for a moment that I've truly witnessed some amazing things from the being that she is and other animals have been in my life.
20:55
And that's where I want to take this episode is to leave you with the top 10 things I've learned from my life with Eliza, and that number one thing is you've got to find the sunshine. I know every time I would turn around, that cat was looking for sunshine, she was basking in the sun, she was sleeping in the sun. She would find that ray just coming through a window and it could be on a floor and she was there. And it's just a reminder how easy it is to find the sunshine if we're just present in the moment. And that leaves me to number two be present and be still the being over the doing is really why we're here, isn't it? And animals do that. They just are so organic about being and we're just too much in the doing, and I share more about that on episode 128. I'll put that in the podcast notes as well, on the importance of being a human being over human doing.
22:06
Number three is play Adulting gets the best of us, doesn't it? So I want you to stop as often as you can and laugh and play and find that childish enthusiasm that lives within you. Without a care in the world, animals just play. They don't worry about what other animals are thinking, they just are. I learned that no matter how upset I am in a situation, it doesn't need to consume me. That's number four. Be in that place where you can move forward, just like the animals around you move forward Just like the animals around you. They don't spend time in the upset, they just keep moving forward. I learned to let your guard down to trust, and if you've ever spoken to your pet in a childlike voice or as if they are a child, you know exactly what I'm talking about. They aren't judging you, so why are you judging yourself? Just trust that you're doing exactly what you're supposed to be doing.
23:21
Number six I learned that we're all just walking each other home. I know I say that often, but I use that here because it makes such perfect sense. But when you think about it that way that we're all just walking each other home on this planet, no matter what kind of being we are, we become kinder beings. I learned that in grief beings I learned that in grief we find one another and we share the most vulnerable and beautiful parts of ourselves. It's a reminder of the power of community, right? If you've ever seen animals together, how they play, how they laugh, how they cuddle, it's just so easy to find that comfort and support. We need that too. We need that too.
24:14
I learned the importance of sleep from that cat Now cats I hear sleep up to like 19 hours a day. I would imagine that's just about right when I think about my time with Eliza and she seems pretty refreshed when she gets up right, just does her thing. But it's just about right when I think about my time with Eliza and she seems pretty refreshed when she gets up right, just does her thing. But it's just a reminder to me that sleep is so important for our well-being. So be sure that you're getting good rest, just like your pets.
24:45
Number nine find your people or your person. I know I've said this before. I said it earlier in this podcast episode. Eliza saved me as much as I saved her. I became her person. I don't think that was accidental. And number 10, I think, is really important, if not the most important.
25:09
I've learned that you need to love without condition. You need to love without fear and worry. And when you do this and you just let go and realize that being vulnerable is being courageous, you are just allowing yourself to be the most pure sense of self by loving. And in time grief will come, but that grief will turn to gratitude when you remember that loving is a reason to be grateful, even if it was only for a short time, because love will always fill your home again. You're just that kind of person. You're that kind of person. I'm that kind of person. And somewhere out there an animal is going to want to call you their own, want to call you their own, and maybe, just maybe, they'll be sent to you from someone or something that has loved you from before in your past. When you think about it that way, it's heart opening.
26:22
In closing, I imagine you've connect with this episode in some way, shape or form. And if you do you've connect with this episode in some way, shape or form and if you do, if it did resonate with you in any way, I would love to know and I'd also love to offer you an opportunity to share your story about your special pet on an upcoming episode In the sharing in the community, we do find that we are never truly alone. So what I'm asking you to do is pretty simple and kind of fun. I would love for you to go to speakpipe dot com slash hilisticallyspeaking. I'll put this in the listen notes and share your voice and your story about a pet that you have loved any point in your life. Really, it could be one that you connected with as a child to more recently, but in sharing about them you're keeping their spirit alive.
27:14
You know, miss Eliza might not be here on this earth in this moment, sitting on this lap or behind me on my chair in this moment, but she's with me. I will continue to share her stories. I'm sure she's going to come up again and I would love that for you as well. So just press record, share your journey, and then you can take it one step further and share a picture of you with your pet, so that when I release the episode, that memory will be remembered, along with your voice and your story. And once you record, once you go to speakpipe dot com, I will personally reach out to you to share details on how you can share that photo and get in on the show.
27:53
Do yourself a favor. Give that special being that gave you so much unconditional love a moment in the spotlight. I look forward to hearing your stories, seeing your connection, and I imagine others will as well. So, on that note, thank you for showing up, for tuning in, for being part of my journey, allowing me to feel safe and vulnerable to share my story, this episode. I leave you with the words that you probably have heard before and they are quite memorable from Winnie the Pooh, heard before, and they are quite memorable from Winnie the Pooh how lucky I am to have something that makes saying goodbye so hard. That's the gratitude right there until next time. I love you, I believe in you and I appreciate your open heart. Be well.
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Your journey through menopause can be transformative and empowering. When I first heard that statement, I rolled my eyes! But, hear me out on this. You and I both know there is no magic pill to make it go away. And “no”, you can’t sell your uterus on Ebay either. (Yes, that was a question I got in an email). What you can do is find ways to better understand all the changes and holistically age with beauty and grace. From hormones to hot flashes, brain fog to body changes, it’s like puberty for adults.
On this episode of the HIListically Speaking Podcast, Hilary welcomes Certified Menopause Coach Specialist Erika Shannon-Hathaway who not only answers your questions but shares actionable steps and practical tips from symptom management and macrodosing to mental clarity and menoparties for self-care.
FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPTS AVAILABLE https://www.hilaryrusso.com/podcast
CHAPTERS:
00:00 Intro
02:08 The Importance of Health Coaches (51 Seconds)
06:40 Navigating Adult Puberty and Parenting
14:44 Importance of Self-Care and Mindset
26:50 Erika Answers Your Questions (Audience Q&A)
37:00 Managing Menopause, Hormones and Sleep
46:48 Struggling With Brain Fog
53:05 Nutrition and Exercise in Menopause
54:04 Weight Gain and Estrogen Loss
57:45 Rapid Fire Game
01:00:00 Erika’s Closing Thoughts
01:01:00 Hilary’s final thought and info
Download my FREE guided Self-Havening for Hot Flashes and Hormones video https://www.hilaryrusso.com/hormones
CONNECT WITH ERIKA:
https://www.instagram.com/erikashannonmovement
https://www.linkedin.com/in/erikashannon/
https://www.facebook.com/erikashannonmovement
https://www.erikashannon.com/menoparty
https://www.erikashannon.com/yournextchapter-landing-page
Interested in getting better sleep? Listen to Ep 140 with Sleep Expert Mollie Eastman.
FREE HAVENING HAPPY HOUR & EVENTS
Join the next Free Havening Happy Hour. Next event:
March 27th at 7pm ET. Registration is required https://www.hilaryrusso.com/events
CONNECT WITH HILARY
https://www.instagram.com/hilaryrusso
https://www.youtube.com/hilaryrusso
https://www.facebook.com/hilisticallyspeaking
https://www.tiktok.com/@hilisticallyspeaking
https://www.hilaryrusso.com/podcast
Music by Lipbone Redding https://lipbone.com/
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
(Full Transcript https://www.hilaryrusso.com/podcast)
00:00 - Erika Shannon-Hathaway (Guest)
There are so many things now that give us community around it that it helps us regulate our symptoms and therefore improve our quality of life as we're going through the inevitable journey of menopause.
00:13 - Hilary Russo (Host)
As a living, breathing human. You are someone, you know someone or you love someone on the menopause journey and I'm now on the other side of this myself. But I still have questions about how to stay healthy mind, body and spirit All the questions there. Because it's more than just hormones, it's befriending your body, it's understanding the signs and acceptance of this beautiful aging process that we go through as women. And if this isn't you, this conversation is going to help you, support those who are going through this journey. So I've invited my friend, Erika Shannon Hathaway on the show to have a little girl chat, answer your questions and help you walk away from this conversation with a clear understanding of how you can embrace the change. Now some of you tuning in might know Erika because we've spent some time together a number of years on Daily Burn 365, that live streaming fitness show we were both on.
01:13
But Erika, my dear friend, you have not only been in this fitness industry for close to two decades, you started making that womanly change yourself and said that you want to do more, not just for yourself, but for those you serve, because you've been a coach, as a fitness instructor for years, as someone who has been in this field for so long, and now as a certified menopause coach specialist, you are helping women pave a new way. So thanks for being here. This is so great. I really love that we're going to be talking about menopause.
01:46 - Erika Shannon-Hathaway (Guest)
Thank you. It is so great to be here with you, Hilary, and it's always just like a reunion to see the old gang from DV365. I love you all so much and thank you for doing what you do with this podcast. I think you help and serve so many people who really need it and it's just a real privilege to be here. So thanks for having me.
02:08 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Well, I love having my DB365 friends on, but this goes so much bigger, as you know. You know being the work of holistic health and thank you for that. I appreciate that. You know it's just we're here to serve and I remember us having a conversation about just health in general and when we were on the show and I was actually a participant on the show while you're one of our amazing trainers we were given health coaches and this was a fairly new industry. You know the health coaching world, which I wound up being on the other side as a health coach myself. But having support and having guidance and having somebody who understands what you're going through to be that guide by yourself, by your side, is really helpful, like having someone be that guide to answer questions you might have, or just kind of be the sister or the brother that you need. You know, and you've embraced that as well, when you were going through this menopause journey, you found yourself a health coach.
03:06 - Erika Shannon-Hathaway (Guest)
Yes, I did. I didn't know. I knew that I was experiencing the beginnings of perimenopause, but I also thought, oh, I'm just so stressed out and I'm not giving myself the self-care I need and I feel like there's something hormonally off with me. So I hired a holistic health coach to help me out and really, at the time, what I wanted was for her to get all of my levels and do all my hormone testing and my blood testing and just give me a magic pill to make it all better. That's what I really wanted and this is me having been in the fitness and wellness industry, for you know, at that point it had been about 15 years. It's been 18 years now. But I was like, okay, I don't have time to do anything other than what I'm doing and I don't want to stop drinking, and so give me a pill, tell me what's wrong, tell me what I'm missing, and let's supplement it. And she, she was great in that. She really honored like I told her what I wanted and she gave me it, but it didn't fully help because there were certain lifestyle changes that I needed to make, but also my cortisol. I had no cortisol, like I had burned through it all and I was operating with the lowest cortisol imaginable and and it was totally throwing me off I was gaining weight and it was a mess.
04:30
So, um, we worked through a lot of things and I did make significant improvements during that coaching time, but it wasn't until, um, I started really tuning into my own body, that I started fine tuning even more and then, just in the last year and a half, my journey with getting more involved from an educational standpoint about what perimenopause and menopause actually do to your body and how I can help not only myself but all of the people that I've been teaching for so long. We're all growing together and aging together, and so everybody needs it. A hundred percent of people with ovaries are going to go through this, so I'm really grateful to have the knowledge that I have. Now. I've basically made fun of myself and apologize to my health coach about how idealistic and stupid I was just being. Like give me a pill. How much testosterone? What is it? It's like a testosterone booster supplement. How much tribulus do I need to take to make myself feel better? But yeah, it's crazy.
05:36 - Hilary Russo (Host)
And I think that's true with pretty much anything. I mean, we live in a sick care system, not a healthcare system. We live in a hell care system, not a health care system. I was just going to say Right, we live in a hellscape. It's a hellscape, it's so true, and we're trying so hard to find the way out or find a way to easily make this go away that, whatever the problem is and that's something I went through as well we come from an age where it was like you go to the doctor, you get, you get a diagnosis and I'm not poo-pooing Western Med by any means, but that whole integrative approach and the blend of functional medicine and holistic health is us being our own healthcare advocates to understand and ask questions. You know I can't say this enough, but with this, what did you call it? A hellscape?
06:26 - Erika Shannon-Hathaway (Guest)
Yeah, okay great, it just came to my mind. I love it. Write that down.
06:31 - Hilary Russo (Host)
That's a good one, but it is because it's it's we're putting too much in the hands of someone else when we really need to to ask the questions. And you know, I remember when my mom was going through it and'm just like you're crazy, you know, like she's going through that thing, right, we're pointing fingers at women like oh, you're just, you know, it's your time of month, which is a horrible thing to say, but when we're going through this part of our lives, which I always say, it's almost like puberty for adults.
07:00 - Erika Shannon-Hathaway (Guest)
you know I was just having right.
07:02 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I was just having a conversation at my fitness facility with a number of women. I said this is like puberty, except we just have a better understanding. We have a fully developed brain and we actually learn how to not react and respond to what's happening.
07:17 - Erika Shannon-Hathaway (Guest)
It's reverse puberty really.
07:19
My daughter is 11, and she is ramping up for major puberty times.
07:24
My daughter is 11 and she is ramping up for major puberty times and it is crazy to watch her go through that and see her hormonal changes happening in real time.
07:32
And also it makes me laugh at the timing of what most of us, if we have kids, if you're going through perimenopause and menopause, most likely one of your daughters or sons is going through puberty at the same time and it's just a hormone. It's a hormone invasion in your house and but there are coping mechanisms and I feel really grateful that I'm able to have conversations with my daughter about menopause and periods and women's health stuff that my Catholic mom never had with me, not because she didn't want me to be educated in it, but because she had never been educated herself. And she even told me when she went through menopause she didn't even know she was going through menopause because nobody talked about it. She said I don't know, I just kind of went through it, I don't, I didn't complain, I didn't know that anything was really wrong. And and now she said she sent me something on Instagram the other day. She said I have never seen so much about menopause in my life and I said I know, isn't it amazing? It's amazing, it is.
08:44 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I mean, I think for us and our generation going through puberty it was are you there, god? It's me, margaret, yes, which, by the way, I love that movie, it's so good. I took my daughter. I felt myself there, I know.
08:59 - Erika Shannon-Hathaway (Guest)
Right.
09:02 - Hilary Russo (Host)
And a health class which everyone was giggling, which I'm sure kids still do. But here we are at this later stage in our lives, this next phase, and it's really truly understanding who we are, how we're showing up, but also getting the support of those around us, whether it's your girlfriends, whether it's your spouse or your partner, them understanding it and also, like you said, having those conversations with your daughter, where she knows where you are and you know where she is, and it really creates a whole different sisterhood, doesn't it?
09:31 - Erika Shannon-Hathaway (Guest)
It does and it creates a better relationship, because this morning she was having a moment and she was like I hate my hair and it looks terrible, and la, la, la, like all morning. She was just in a mood and I just hugged her. I said I love you, would you like me to plug in the straightener for you? And she was like I love you too. Yeah, that'd be great.
09:52 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Thank you, she just needed to be heard. Yeah, we need that too.
09:56 - Erika Shannon-Hathaway (Guest)
And so do we.
09:58
So do we, and it's wonderful that we are at this point where we can look at the latest research and where we can advocate for ourselves, like you were saying, with our doctors and our healthcare team, and we can even educate some of our healthcare providers about these things, because the studies that are coming out, the studies that they might have come into the business their industry with, are now outdated and debunked, such as the Women's Health Initiative from the late 90s and early 2000s, and so it is our job to show up and know what is happening, to know what symptoms are actually symptoms of perimenopause.
10:42
There are estrogen receptors in every major organ system in the body, and so it's not just hot flashes, and the majority of people don't know that. And so how lucky are we that we get to live in a time when we can log on to Instagram and see oh my gosh, I'm not the only one having heart palpitations when I have a glass of wine. Or, oh my gosh, I'm not the only one having heart palpitations when I have a glass of wine. Or, oh my gosh, I didn't know that ringing ears were a symptom of perimenopause. I thought that there was something wrong, that I had like a sinus infection or something. There are so many things now that give us community around it that it helps us regulate our symptoms and therefore improve our quality of life as we're going through the inevitable journey of menopause.
11:27 - Hilary Russo (Host)
And knowing how to support that, which is huge.
11:31
Right, I love that you bring that up too, because there are a lot of things that are outside of the box of what we think happens in perimenopause and menopause. I remember having that first hot flash and I felt like I was standing over a subway grate in New York City and then it was gone. And then five seconds later I'm in a hot yoga class and then it's gone. That's what we think, that's ideally what we think when we are thinking about the menopause journey, but it is so much more that brain fog that we were just talking about, right.
12:04
That sets in. How do we support ourselves there? Moods like our moods, behaviors. That's going to switch too, because something's going on with this vehicle of ours, right? Yes?
12:15 - Erika Shannon-Hathaway (Guest)
Everything's going on at the same time. Our entire system is recalibrating to survive without essential life-giving hormones in our bodies and everything is affected by that. And the more that we can recognize it, name it and know what to do to make ourselves feel better, it's just going to make everything better for us in the long run, which is why I love this work that I'm doing now as a certified menopause coach specialist. It's just so gratifying to help people. And there are the pillars of self-care right. There's exercise, there's nutrition, there's sleep.
12:57
Sleep is a major component of being able to regulate your symptoms and menopause and perimenopause and self-care, even what you do with havening. It is so important. It is so important to comfort yourself and regulate your nervous system, because anxiety kicks in in a big way during perimenopause, not to mention just the stage of life that we're in, where so many of us are. We talk about the sandwich generation, where people are taking care of aging parents and their kids at the same time. I am deeply in that right now, my mother-in-law has dementia and has just been diagnosed with stage three cancer, and then I have an 11-year-old with a broken wrist athlete who is just on the other like bouncing off the walls, and so in the middle, I have to have really good tools to be able to regulate myself so that I can live a life that I love without getting distracted, and also take care of everybody around me at the same time. And it does take a village.
13:59 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Absolutely, and it is what women do. We are more of the nurturing that feminine energy is to nurture. We are the ones the nurturing that feminine energy is to nurture. We are the ones that are in the container, filling the container right, and it's really important to know how to support yourself so you can support others. And, by the way, I appreciate you mentioning Havening as one of those tools. There are many tools right. There are many.
14:20
But being able to self-regulate and self-soothe and for self-care is so imperative, no matter what it is Like, if it's taking a yoga class, if it's journaling, if it's just taking five minutes to step away from the chaos to bring that sense of calm. Whatever it is is really vital for your well-being holistically. You know the whole body approach.
14:44 - Erika Shannon-Hathaway (Guest)
Yes, I agree with you, and I think that's something that a lot of people don't understand is when you are coaching someone, or even I was talking to one of my best friends from high school the other day and she is in a major state of anxiety right now. She's also hormonally fully in menopause, but she's another sandwich generation person. Her husband's having some health issues at the moment and her therapist told her that she needed to start meditating or doing some sort of self-regulating something to tamp down her nervous system. And she was like I'm sorry, but like breathing isn't going to help me right now. And I was like, well, actually breathing really is going to help you right now.
15:25
And I think that carving out little pockets of self-care I call it micro-dosing, so self-care is so important and has tremendous benefits for just regulating your anxiety during the day. And while I said, look, I know there's a lot wrong right now and, yes, breathing isn't going to solve all of the problems, but it is going to take you from a 10 to a seven so that you can take a deep breath, so that you can pay attention to a phone call, so that you can maybe get 20 minutes of rest in between one thing and the other. It does make a difference. Those little things, the havening, all of those things make a big difference.
16:11 - Hilary Russo (Host)
All it takes is two minutes to do anything to regulate your nervous system. It doesn't take. But we get in that the brain gets hijacked, right, and the minute that happens it's like going down this, this hill and the ball just keeps getting bigger. It's really having the, the mindset to say wait is. Is this true, is it helpful, is it inspiring, is it necessary and is it kind?
16:35
When I'm saying that think method that we learn, you know to stop it and put the kibosh on it before it goes too far. So, with you being a certified menopause coach and there's not many certifications out there, so you're really like in it, Erika, and I want to bring attention to that Because, while there are a lot of people talking about menopause, having this certification, having this knowledge, is a level up, and I say that myself with my certifications, I know we're more than our LMNOPs after our name but, there is something about this so that if you are able to go to a doctor, there is somebody like an Erika out there that understands us more on a whole body approach level.
17:21
I would's right I would love for you to share that, just so people have an idea great.
17:27 - Erika Shannon-Hathaway (Guest)
Yes, there is one certification program right now in the united states that is accredited, which means that for my certification as a fitness professional, I get actual credits for it. It is an evidence-based coaching program created by Molly Galbraith with Girls Gone Strong, and she is an incredible coach and has incredible programs. And the team of doctors who she recruited to help put the certification together I think there were 14 doctors, so it's all evidence-based coaching. It is not theoretical. This is evidence-based coaching about the pillars of your life that you need to integrate.
18:14
Now my scope of practice is not to prescribe supplements, hormone replacement therapy. Prescribe supplements, hormone replacement therapy any kind of medication. I am not a physician, but what I like to do is work in tandem with your physician. I like to refer you to a pelvic health specialist. I will refer you to people in my network who can help you and work with them together, because if you choose hormone replacement therapy, then my job is to give you the tools to use those hormones in your body to your best and highest good and benefit.
18:57
So I concentrate on exercise. Clearly, I've been in the fitness industry for 18 years, so I'm well equipped for that. But the type of exercise that you do at this time of life is very different. Of course there's all the elements of cardio and strength and balance and push, pull and all those things. But in menopause the warmups are longer and we want to really concentrate on strength training to build bone density, lean muscle mass and to mitigate the risks of coronary heart disease, diabetes, dementia. There are so many things that exercise does, especially at this time of our life, that have been proven scientifically. Exercise is a definite boon to help us stay healthy as we age exercise is a definite boon to help us stay healthy as we age.
19:49 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, so the staying in the scope of practice I think is so important the fact that you mentioned that. I appreciate that, because I say that a lot too. I'm not a doctor, I'm not a therapist, a board certified, but people who trust you and know that you are truly doing the work, because it's not just getting one certification and you're done, which there? Are people out there that do that. It is a continuous thing, my friends, that we are con.
20:12 - Erika Shannon-Hathaway (Guest)
Things are constantly changing and coming out in yes, so those especially in this field oh, yeah, everybody has their eyes on it now, so everybody's finally studying it and everyone's a coach right so everyone's with air quotes right, so finding someone who understands it. Yeah, it gets my goat when people I get it and I'm like well, where did you get certified? And they're like what do you mean?
20:37 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Or even beyond the certification. It's not just taking a weekend class and suddenly you've got something after your name. It really is understanding, because you can do more damage than good. So, if I were to refer somebody who needed support in the area of perimenopause or menopause also, fitness, because let's not forget how well versed you are in that I mean this, we you and I met during our journey with daily burn, but you were already in the fitness world. You've worked with other fitness companies afterwards as somebody that's had a pretty high position as well. Yeah, you understand this. So, putting those things together, if I were to get a question about this and it's outside my scope of practice right, having people like you are important, you know and you're right.
21:25 - Erika Shannon-Hathaway (Guest)
It builds, it takes a village you know it does, and I operate from a place of incredibly high integrity. I learned that early on in my career that you have to put your money where your mouth is. You have to do what you say you're going to do, and when you have other people's health and wellness in your hands, in the palm of your hand, it is your responsibility to make sure you are fully accredited, because health is too valuable to mess around with, and I want to help people in the purest way, want to help people in the purest way. Having said that, the thing we do as a coach is everybody comes with a different set of symptoms. Everybody comes with a different experience, with a different panel of blood work and hormone levels, at a different stage of life, with different needs and wants, and so, as a coach, I coach to what's probable and not what's possible, and it's very, very much.
22:31
I am your tour guide, but it's very much up to you to do the work. I'm not going to prescribe you. Yeah, I'm not going to do what I wanted my coach to do back in the day. I wouldn't say like, give me a magic vitamin and it's going to go away. No, we make commitments to do work. We make a plan, we see what's probable, we see what's most likely, what you're most likely to succeed at doing, based on what your values are based on what your values are, not mine, and then we try stuff out.
23:03 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Right. We call it bio bio individuality in the world of integrative nutrition, which is another great program for certification. But when I was going through the Institute for integrative nutrition, they coined this term. Bio individuality, yeah, which means every person is different, even if we are the same age, same gender, different Even if we are the same age, same gender, same life experiences. Your vehicle, this temple of yours that no one else owns, is operating a little differently.
23:31 - Erika Shannon-Hathaway (Guest)
Absolutely. Even if our hormone numbers are the same, our bodies operate differently.
23:40 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, and it's really meeting people where they're at with their needs, not what you think. Oh, you're this age, you're this gender, this is what you need and it's not cookie cutter. I get that I get asked that a lot as a practitioner, especially working on the mental health side. How does your session go? And I'm like your session with me today can be different from the one next week can be different from the as it should as it should.
24:04
So there's no cookie cutter. You know there might be a process, but understanding who is before you and how you're showing up for them, you would want that to be the same as somebody showing up for you. That's how I treat it. Yeah, yeah.
24:18 - Erika Shannon-Hathaway (Guest)
Our job is to ask a lot of questions to figure out what's really important to people. Everybody I work with goes through an exercise creating their menopause vision statement, and it starts with really evaluating what's important to you as you age and how we're gonna keep you optimized for what's really important to you as you age. And that's how I start. So sometimes I'll start with nutrition, sometimes I'll start with exercise, sometimes I'll start with nutrition, sometimes I'll start with exercise, sometimes I'll start with sleep. You know, it just depends on what they need first, and then we keep knocking, knocking it out, and that's just how we work. But there's no so far in my practice. No two people need the same thing at the same time.
25:01 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, it's constant work too, because keeping up with our clients and making sure you're supporting them on their needs and being that guide for what they need, compared to someone else. But what's beautiful and I want to mention this because this is a good place to mention this you do have this incredible and, oh my gosh, this girl loves play on words, so I love this. You have your menaarty, yes, and I want to talk about that because it's very similar. You and I are so, so similar in a lot of ways, but still different by individuality. I have the you know the the monthly Havening happy hours. You have something called a menoparty, which is every two weeks. Let's talk about that so that people know there is support if they're not able to work with you one-on-one.
25:47 - Erika Shannon-Hathaway (Guest)
Yes, oh, do. I love the menoparties. So the menoparties are a free Zoom online party. They're at eight o'clock at night every other Tuesday usually, and sometimes I have special guests on. So last week I had Dr Liz McGinley on, who is a pelvic health specialist and a chiropractic sports physician, and we talked all about what happens to our joints, tendons and pelvic region as we go through menopause and she was incredible.
26:21
Sometimes we have what I call an all skate where I do flash coaching. So everybody comes on, we wear our pajamas, we have our little. I have like hoodies that say ain't no party like a meadow party. I wear that and we just show up and build community around this phase of life, which is so vital, and we have such a good time. We laugh really hard and I record them and if you can't make it live, I send it out the next day.
26:50
But it's just a really wonderful place to meet other women who are in a similar situation to get a little bit of information about how to handle certain things that that someone else might be getting coached on but you're also identifying with as well, and I have made sure every single session is free. No strings attached. There's no, you know you don't have to buy anything to get it, it's just you sign up and you are invited, and you're always invited and you will forever and ever be invited and we just laugh a lot and sometimes it goes into we talk about sex, we talk about sleep, we talk about stress, we talk about family drama, we talk about our kids and our parents and we talk about dry eyes and ringing ears and palpitations and incontinence and peeing when you're doing jumping jacks and like thousands and thousands of things. But it's so much fun and always free and I it's really important to me because I I really believe that putting a paywall behind vital information, I have a problem with that and, of course, I need to do it for certain offerings of mine, because I do need to make a living.
28:07
But, um, so right now, the options are the. I always want to have a free option, so the free option is the meadow parties, which are great fun, and then I have um, a coaching program that I am launching very soon. That is, we. It's a group coaching, so it's a monthly fee and you get group coaching every single month and you get access to my online community and we talk there all the time and share recipes and stories and support each other, and it's really lovely. And then, of course, I do my one-on-one as well.
28:37 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Love it, lots of different tiers, the fact that you're offering something for free. And I feel the same way because I've had people mentioned to me like, why aren't you charging for this? I'm like because I have other ways to to provide myself with income from people working with me one on one. This is an opportunity because it is a right. This is a human right that every person should have access to to some degree.
29:08
Obviously, coaching someone one-on-one in a group experience can be difficult anyway but, you want to have more of a possibility for people to share and connect and know that they're not going through this alone. They're not alone in this battle. So, and making it fun talking about menopause, talking about mental health, whatever it might be, is what breaks down the barriers that have been there for so long, probably the barriers that we went through as Gen Xers and before you know, generations before the silent generation. So I love this. I love that you love the name more than anything.
29:50 - Erika Shannon-Hathaway (Guest)
I love it and we're going to put all this in there. We're going to have links in the.
29:52 - Hilary Russo (Host)
yes, we're going to put the links to Erika's one on one sessions, as well as the mental parties, just so you can get in touch with her. We're going to have that available to you in the podcast notes so that you can get yourself on the party right. Get right, baby, get right with me.
30:07 - Erika Shannon-Hathaway (Guest)
So what I want to do?
30:08 - Hilary Russo (Host)
we got a lot of questions that came in and as recent as I was just at my trainer and there were a bunch of girls asking me questions, I'm like let me write it down. Some of them overlap because they are mainly the same questions that a lot of us have, but some are a little more specific. So let's just go to the questions. You ready for it? I'm ready. All right, let's do this. This is actually from Christine. She's from Michigan and she did ask yeah, that's your. You know right, I went to Michigan, you did go to Michigan. So Christine from Michigan says what sort of exercise is best when you're in menopause, or is it that any kind of exercise is good as long as you're doing something? Very good question, Christine, Great question.
30:53 - Erika Shannon-Hathaway (Guest)
You want to try for 150 minutes of exercise per week. You want to get in a good amount of cardio, but not high intensity anaerobic cardio. You want to stay in that zone two, zone three moment. So think power walking, put on a weighted vest and take a walk. Go, walk on an incline so that you get your heart rate up.
31:15
I do a special strength training in my program, move and Win, which is a little movement platform that I have and that all of my clients get for free, called Peripheral Heart Action. And Peripheral Heart Action is strength training, but it is formatted in a way that you alternate exercises between lower body and upper body, with no breaks in between, so that your heart rate stays up, because what you're doing is you're drawing blood flow to your upper body and then to your lower body and then back, and it goes and goes like that. So it actually keeps your heart rate elevated and therefore provides great metabolic value because you're burning calories longer throughout the day. So those are your cardio options, and then strength training. Pick up the heavy weights. Those are your cardio options, and then strength training. Pick up the heavy weights.
32:06
You're going to want to really strength train, because as we lose estrogen, we lose lean muscle mass, we lose bone density and that increases our likelihood in our postmenopausal life for coronary disease, diabetes, high cholesterol, injury in falls and fractures, osteopenia and osteoporosis. So you really, really want to just intensify your strength training. Pick up the weights. If you don't know how to pick up the weights, hit me up, I'll help you. It doesn't have to be fancy, you don't need fancy equipment, but integrating strength training into your life.
32:45
I would say three times a week if you can is so valuable and get a little plyo in there for bone density. Yeah, Whether it's little box jumps or just taking sometimes on my stairs right here, I'll just do step up and jump back down, step up and jump back down just to get a little bit of that impact in. It makes a big difference in maintaining bone density.
33:10 - Hilary Russo (Host)
And if you have a difficult time jumping, you can do it with just a step up, step down right, absolutely.
33:17
You don't want to get any injury. That's really important and that comes up a lot. The osteoporosis, obviously. While we are recording this, we've been talking a lot about women's health, women's history month in March and the fact that you know we just had heart health month and women are the highest number that is prone to getting heart disease and cardiac health is very important for women. So I love this question because you went even deeper. So, take note of this, Christine, and those listening Good luck.
33:52
Yes, she's on the journey and she's in a couple of our other groups that we're in, so I know that she works out, so she's stepping it up a little bit. Great question, christine. We got one that just came in, so I'm actually going to the book of face. I'm going to be reading this like just this is a cold read, like back from our theater.
34:11 - Erika Shannon-Hathaway (Guest)
Okay, you're an expert, you're going to crush it.
34:15 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Oh, my gosh, I don't know about that. All right, sarah, she has a question about sleep. That's why I'm doing this question, because it's so, so important. Every trainer that I've ever followed exclaims that the benefits of good sleep, the importance of sleep to a good workout, and she says she agrees. However, hot flashes and night sweats are the antithesis of a good night's rest. I'll hear you, girl how do I get a good night's sleep when I'm constantly getting up hour by hour with hot flashes and night sweats? Oh, that is a good question's. Sleep when I'm constantly getting up hour by hour with hot flashes and night sweats? Ooh, that is a good question, sarah, really good question.
34:48 - Erika Shannon-Hathaway (Guest)
Yes, this is a multifaceted question. First of all, thank you for sharing about your sleep struggles. You are not alone. This is a major, major issue. Vasomotor symptoms go haywire during perimenopause and menopause, and so the first thing we would want to do is try to reduce the likelihood of your hot flashes, and so to do that, you take a multifaceted approach, with good nutrition, talking to your healthcare provider to see if you are a good candidate for hormone replacement therapy, because the best way to treat those symptoms is with HRT, if it is something that you're interested in doing. There are some medications that can make hot flashes worse. There are some foods and drinks that can make hot flashes worse Alcohol, I'm looking at you. So if you, unfortunately, alcohol makes hot flashes so much worse.
35:55
Sugar makes hot flashes so much worse, and eating late meals. You want to increase your protein. You want to increase your fiber in your diet. Make sure that you have a really nice, balanced diet and try to mitigate stress by setting your sleep schedule. Also, lower the temperature in your bedroom. Lower the temperature in your bedroom, sleep naked or with a little tank top on, take your sheets off and give yourself a fan. You know there are lots of ways to prop yourself in a way that the hot flashes go away. But lowering your stress level, getting rid of sugar and alcohol and inflammatory foods, hrt that's going to get ridT that's going to help you alleviate your hot flashes. Without knowing more about your history or all of those things. This is a blanket statement and obviously regular exercise will help with your hot flashes as well.
37:00
From a sleep perspective, my question would be do you go to sleep and wake up at the same time every day?
37:08
And, if not, how can you adjust your lifestyle so that you can start that process?
37:14
And the reason why I ask is because there are other hormones at play here the hormones melatonin and cortisol.
37:23
High cortisol can cause more hot flashes If you are not sleeping, going to bed and waking up at the same time every day, your cortisol and your melatonin are going to be a little bit skewed. So, if you want so, when we go to sleep, our melatonin gets high, our cortisol gets low. When we wake up, our melatonin is low. Our cortisol should be at the highest point of the whole day when we wake up, and that's why sometimes when we do a hormone panel, we want to do it first thing in the morning so we can test our cortisol right when we wake up. So if we are eating late, if we are watching stressful television shows right up until we go to sleep, if we are having excited conversations, if we are drinking alcohol, if we are out partying or just engaging in a stress-inducing state working out at night, even our cortisol stays high longer and our melatonin doesn't kick in until later, and that will mess with your sleep schedule. You want to really tune into your circadian rhythms here, because that's going to help your hormones regulate.
38:35 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, I love that you're bringing that up.
38:36 - Erika Shannon-Hathaway (Guest)
Yeah, everything is related. So, to increase your melatonin production at night, dim all the lights in your house. If you're going to watch TV or look at social media, try not to do it at least an hour before bed. If you do, use blue light blockers and try to regulate the type of content that you're consuming right before you go to sleep and then try to wake up at the same time every day so that your body gets into this rhythm where cortisol is happening. And, if you can, try to delay drinking coffee for an hour after you wake up so that your natural cortisol kicks in before you stimulate with caffeine.
39:17 - Hilary Russo (Host)
That is so important, everything you just said, and it's going above and beyond. And look, I'm a coffee drinker. I try to get away from it, but the caffeine will kick in. I have to know when to stop it, because I feel the change in my body when I have the caffeine and you know also, I'm going to throw this in there While you're listening to this episode. Afterwards, after you have this amazing conversation that you're tuning into with myself and Erika, check out episode 140, because I did an entire episode on sleep within the sleep expert, Mollie Eastman, on episode 140.
39:52
So tune into this. That's what I'm talking about. We're all in this collective together and it's giving you really valuable information that you can share. Because what made me think about that, Erika, is that you touched on the lights in the home. Yeah, Because we, naturally we have all these bright lights in our home and it doesn't allow us to come down Put a dimmer everywhere. Yeah or the red lights or the blue lights, something that looks like sundown, is so important. I'm telling you it makes a difference with sleep.
40:17 - Erika Shannon-Hathaway (Guest)
It really does, because your body recognizes it as it's time to get ready to go to sleep now, that's correct.
40:23 - Hilary Russo (Host)
So anyway, sarah, great question. Sarah's from Washington State. I love when we have people all over the country and the world Appreciate that question. All right, we're going back home here. We're coming back to Joycey. This is from Jenny. Okay, hi. Jenny Jenny puts a little humor in her stuff. I know Jenny very well. Is it true that even after you go through menopause for 12 months or you go through 12 months with no period, rather you can still experience menopause symptoms like hot flashes?
40:53 - Erika Shannon-Hathaway (Guest)
Absolutely. You can have symptoms of menopause for up to 10 years before and 10 years after. 10 years before and 10 years after. Menopause is defined as one day, yeah, so menopause is marked when you go 365 days without a period. Once that day passes, you are post-menopause and your symptoms can last well into your 60s.
41:18 - Hilary Russo (Host)
She's going to love the answer to that question. I'm very sorry to let you know, because she followed up.
41:24 - Erika Shannon-Hathaway (Guest)
Perimenopause can last 10 years. Yeah yeah, I still cycle regularly, but my perimenopause symptoms are real life honey. And my estrogen levels are low. My testosterone levels are low. I have no progesterone, but yet somehow I'm still. My body temperature is going up and down, so I know I'm cycling. So, because I don't get a period anymore. Tmi I had an endometrial ablation in 2019. So it's glorious. I haven't had a period since then.
41:53 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Again, it goes back to the vehicle. Understanding your vehicle. Do I have oil and gas in this vehicle? What's going on? I have not had and TMI we can share here. That's what this is all about.
42:02
Sure we can share. And, by the way, Jenny had a little humor to that, because there is humor in the healing, and she said I definitely want to sell my uterus ASAP because I'm done Girl, I get it. She's like I get it. But understanding your body and being able to befriend it and understand what you're going through and it's, you know, it's a process I have not had one in two years. So, like at that one year point, I'm like, oh, is this it? Like, are you there? God, it's me, Hillary, Full circle moment. I keep trying to find Margaret but she's been so busy. So you know, understanding yourself is really important. So, Jenny, listen, I hope that answers some of your questions. You know, you know understanding yourself is really important. So, Jenny, listen, I hope that answers some of your questions. You know you got me, you got the community and just keep listening to your body, you know please don't sell your uterus on eBay.
42:51 - Erika Shannon-Hathaway (Guest)
Yeah, I mean I could say something like quasi serious about the idea of like wanting to sell your uterus on eBay. Mine's for sale. No, I'm just kidding. Idea of like wanting to sell your uterus on eBay. Mine's for sale no, I'm just kidding. If I could say something serious.
43:10
It reminded me that in this period of life, there is a lot of grief. Yeah, oh yeah. And because, yes, we do. We feel like our bodies have abandoned us. We feel like our bodies have turned against us. We are mourning that our bodies are not operating the way that they used to. We are mourning that we can't keep not operating the way that they used to. We are mourning that we can't keep weight off the way that we used to, or that our sex drive isn't what it used to be, or that our skin is dry, or that our eyesight is going, or that our hair is thinning. We are grieving that we are past our reproductive years. We are grieving a lot of things, and so it's really important to acknowledge that. Like yeah, we joke about. Like, yeah, I want to say I'm done, like somebody just come in and take it all, but careful, what you wish for, right?
43:52 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Because that's such a good point, Erika. And it is grief, it is loss, and when we really show up for ourselves and realize this is a process of what we're going through and you even mentioned it like really understanding this beautiful process of aging, there's going to be bumps and bruises, just like there are in every stage, every decade of our lives. But the grief of not being able to have children I hear that one a lot in session, a lot in session, you know, or just even if you didn't want children or have children, which I didn't it's the idea that biologically I can't, it's something being taken from us and so, yeah, looking at it as grief is something that allows us to show up for ourselves.
44:41 - Erika Shannon-Hathaway (Guest)
And for many women in this phase, in this age, we have kids that are leaving the nest, so that's another piece of grief, because then the child is gone, your main focus for the last 18 years is gone and all of a sudden you're like, well now I'm all washed up, like what am I gonna do now? And that's where we really have an opportunity to lean into the newness of this phase of our life and the possibility and really lean into that persona of being this wise, wonderful, full woman who, or person with ovaries. We don't want to discount our lovely and wonderful trans friends. We want to be really able to be grateful for this transition, and that is really hard sometimes.
45:37
So that's another one of my really big goals is to help people embrace and love a post-menopausal life.
45:47 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, yeah, and you know you hit the nail on the head. It makes me think a little bit about my hug it out method, which is about, in the healing, you have to have the humor, you have to be able to understand what you're going through personally and have gratitude for self, the H-U-G and once you have that, you're able to better show up for yourself, better show up for others. So just hold space for yourself, my friends. You know this is a beautiful process that we're going through together or have been through or will go through. Or you know somebody. Like I said at the the beginning of this, this conversation, we'll know somebody who is going through it. So, even if it isn't your journey, somebody is going through it that you know. So show up for them. Trauma to triumph Trauma to triumph, girl.
46:35
You know it All right, we have one more question. Thank you for that question too, jenny, and just for us going further into it. Yeah, lily in California. Oh girl, oh girl. You and I were just talking about this. Erika Brain fog, it's my battle. That's all she wrote. She wrote brain fog is my battle. What the heck can I do?
46:56 - Erika Shannon-Hathaway (Guest)
Oh God, Brain fog is the worst. Brain fog is the worst. I'm experiencing a lot of brain fog today actually, and I told Hilary before we went live. I'm really afraid that I'm going to lose my train of thought and that my brain is going to like exit the building.
47:14 - Hilary Russo (Host)
This is the conversation, because you think you're alone in it and I have conversations with my boyfriend all the time. I'm forgetting everything and you start thinking like, is this early onset Alzheimer's? What's wrong with me? And we start saying things like what's wrong with me? That's got the kibosh on that right. So share your thoughts on this question.
47:34 - Erika Shannon-Hathaway (Guest)
Number one is sleep. I know personally I can talk about me because I am in my body right now and I am experiencing what you're talking about. So I know that this weekend I lost a lot of sleep. We had plans on Friday night where we were out late. Saturday night I went to a friend's house and came home later than I usually would.
47:52
I've had a little bit of high-functioning anxiety the last few weeks because of some family stuff going on and I know it has deeply affected my sleep. And when I don't get good sleep and I don't get my regular exercise, my brain fog is much, much worse. And so I would say sleep and I would say stop multitasking. We as women think that we can and should be multitasking all of the time. Multitasking does us no favors. So if you combine like really regiment your sleep, try to get that quality sleep.
48:33
I take magnesium glycinate before bed every night and I also take I drink tart cherry juice before I go to bed which has natural occurring melatonin from tryptophan in it and it helps me sleep. Um, I'm just sharing what I do. Obviously I'm not. I don't prescribe these things, but if it works for me, it might work for you. Um, but but the when I try to multitask, just turn off your phone, don't go on social media. Don't get that like monkey brain situation going on. It's not going to help you right now. Go get some fresh air, take a walk, get the blood flowing in your body and get some sleep. That's, for me, what helps me almost immediately.
49:15 - Hilary Russo (Host)
That's really good. So what is? You take magnesium, not just magnesium. You're taking magnesium, yeah, so we'll. We'll add that, just so people have that in the notes and they can do with what they want. But you know another way and I'll just share this too do a few moments of Havening, like sit there, lie in your bed, do a little Havening. I actually have a video on hormones and hot flashes for Havening, but I'm going to do one on sleep because this is this is a big topic and I'll I have a hard time sleeping.
49:45
I have sleep apnea, so I have to settle my mind and stepping away, like you said, from technology even keeping it out of the room is a big thing but just sitting there and like giving yourself two minutes just to self-soothe could put your brain in that Delta wave state, which is sleep state so you know you want to get into that subconscious mind, but be in the subconscious in a positive, because then your brain starts racing right.
50:11 - Erika Shannon-Hathaway (Guest)
Yeah, I actually took my digital clock out of my room smart a month ago because, I was having anxiety knowing how many minutes I was awake in the middle of the night. I was like counting minutes. I was like it's been 46 minutes, I am still awake. Why am I still awake? Why am I thinking? Nothing that you're thinking about in the middle of the night is productive.
50:32
And it's not real. All the anxiety, it's not real. It's like there's nothing that's sensical about what you're thinking about, what you're spinning about in the middle of the night and you can't do anything about it anyway, right, and I tell myself this. So, tools that I use to get back to sleep, just while we're talking about it tapping I do a lot of tapping and if you don't know about tapping EFT tapping it's amazing and I think of it as like an outside in, just like havening.
51:03 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Tapping and havening are the same in that they're both psychosensory approaches. Right, you don't put your mind to it.
51:07 - Erika Shannon-Hathaway (Guest)
It's not like meditation, where you're like clear your mind. It's like I'm going to tap here, I'm going to tap here, I'm going to tap here and here, and here and here and here, and it's going to regulate your nervous system, just like havening. I'm going to touch my hands, I'm going to touch my face, I'm going to give myself a little something and it's going to soothe myself like self-soothing tactics. Yes, and I also listen to sleep hypnosis.
51:34 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yes, we talked about that when we were chit-chatting. Hypnosis is great. I'm a certified hypnotherapist and it's been helpful for me to learn from well again like the certification right. But going even deeper and listening to there's so much content out there. My friends on YouTube, find the ones that are legit and tap into it because it can actually really be helpful.
51:59 - Erika Shannon-Hathaway (Guest)
the sleep hypnosis yes, yes, just make sure you bookmark them so you don't have to go searching YouTube at 2 o'clock in the morning, because that's not going to help you, because then your brain is in a hole.
52:09 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, that's actually really good. I use the.
52:11 - Erika Shannon-Hathaway (Guest)
Aura app A-U-R-A. They have great sleep hypnosis.
52:15 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Great Love that, all right. Well, those are our questions. Let me check to see if we got any others, because we got to play a little game real quick. I want to just. I like these last minute folks that send their questions. We'll check real quick. Doesn't look like we got any more, because you answered some of the questions, uh-oh. No, I take that back.
52:35 - Erika Shannon-Hathaway (Guest)
We have one more question and I'm going to get them in, if I can, let's see.
52:39 - Hilary Russo (Host)
This is from Wendy. And okay, good question, wendy. Wendy said is it possible to lose weight when you're in perimenopause? Haven't changed my diet and workouts, but managed to pack on some weight and I cannot lose it now. Wendy, my dear, let's see what Erika has to say.
52:57 - Erika Shannon-Hathaway (Guest)
I have a lot to say about this. First of all, I would want to know, as your coach, what did you do to change your diet? Restrictive eating is not your friend in perimenopause, because you need more than you think you do and you need to really up your protein and your fiber. Protein and fiber. For women. We're going 25 grams of fiber per day at least and protein you want to get 20 to 30 grams of protein per meal.
53:27
You want to eat. You want to eat, eat, eat, eat, eat all the good things. Stop counting calories. Stop counting calories. You just want to eat more protein and fiber. Um, what?
53:40 - Hilary Russo (Host)
was the other part At least a hundred, a hundred grams of protein a day. Again, just had this conversation too. And what did you say? 25 grams of fiber, right?
53:49 - Erika Shannon-Hathaway (Guest)
For women? Yeah, at least 25. That's a really good question.
53:52 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Wendy, thank you for asking that. That just popped in.
53:56 - Erika Shannon-Hathaway (Guest)
So I'm glad we were able to-.
53:57 - Hilary Russo (Host)
There was another part of that question. Oh, let me go back and check real quick. So Wendy said that she hasn't been able. She's been packing on the weight how I can't lose it now?
54:07 - Erika Shannon-Hathaway (Guest)
yeah, it's just a statement she hasn't changed her diet or workouts so the loss of estrogen causes a redistribution of weight in the body and the accumulation of visceral fat which is around the abdominal area. So the belly fat situation, definitely without changing anything, can can come upon you in menopause or perimenopause, very suddenly actually, and so that's why, with the visceral fat, we have to incorporate the nutrition piece, because visceral fat does not perform the way that subcutaneous fat performs, so subcutaneous fat is easier to gain and lose. Visceral fat is really persnickety and it really depends on what you eat, what you eat and what you do not eat. So you want to avoid inflammatory foods. You want to avoid sugar and alcohol, if you can, added sugars. You want to just pack your day with whole foods and good quality food not processed, and you want to exercise in that zone too. That is going to help you lose weight.
55:29
But all of the high intensity HIIT workouts, all the crazy indoor cycling, all the anaerobic workouts that we used to do in our 20s and 30s, it's not going to serve you now because that just makes your cortisol high and it's not going to give you the recovery that you need. So it all feeds into the same. But diet and exercise are huge. Stop dieting, stop counting calories. And we grew up I mean, I'm Gen X we grew up with this restrictive diet mentality of you have to count calories, you can only have 2,000 calories a day and then we overexercise to compensate. None of that is going to work for you now. We have to completely reprogram our minds to live differently in these bodies, because these are different bodies than they were in our 20s and 30s.
56:21 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, wendy, I get you. I was a kid that went to well, we called it fat camp, which is just putting shame on us right there. But I went to a camp that was counting calories and making sure it's calories in, calories out. Get this amount. You can't work out like you did when you were 13 or 14 or 15 or even 20. Just the movement, like Erika said, the 150 minutes a week, that's 30 minutes a day, five days a week. Right, doing the weight bearing, exercise and really be mindful of the amount of protein. Actually just have as much protein as possible.
56:58 - Erika Shannon-Hathaway (Guest)
You know I mean really, there's really no limit. As much protein as you possibly can.
57:02 - Hilary Russo (Host)
There's just so much that your body will absorb and process. But if you go over, you're fine with that. And then getting that good source of fiber because, again, taking care of our heart, heart health, is really important as well. So these little tips will be helpful for you. Wendy, you are supported, know that you can. Uh, you can find support. You got it, girl. So those are some great questions, and thank you to everybody that submitted. Now let's play a little game with Erika.
57:28 - Erika Shannon-Hathaway (Guest)
Oh dear.
57:28 - Hilary Russo (Host)
All right, as we close things out, Hilary loves to do a game called Rapid Fire, where, I ask you, I actually mention a word that you brought up during this conversation and you come back with the first word that comes to mind. Oh shit Okay Love it there's so many times. I think it would be better to do this at the beginning.
57:45
but no, no, let's close it on a high note here Just the first word that comes to mind, first word that comes to mind. I will throw out some words that you have said. Just come back with the first word, like boom, boom, boom. Let's do it. And I know this is going to be really great, because you have brain fog. You have brain fog, all right, here we go. Hormones Complicated Sleep.
58:09 - Erika Shannon-Hathaway (Guest)
Essential.
58:09 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Period Sucks, menopause, long haul, self-care, self-care, you said Necessary, it's one word, it's hyphenated.
58:25 - Erika Shannon-Hathaway (Guest)
Sugar Inlimited qualities. That's more than one word.
58:30 - Hilary Russo (Host)
That's okay, that's okay. No judgment Sorry, inlimited quantities Fine. We'll put hyphens in between. It yeah, midlife.
58:40 - Erika Shannon-Hathaway (Guest)
Privilege Fitness. Cornerstone Brain fog Sucks.
58:51 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Scary. Brain fog is scary. It is a little scary, but again, understanding where you're coming from helps right and woman Powerful. Yeah, I had to end it on a high note. Look, we're going through stuff ladies and those who identify as tuning in we're going through stuff, guys. And those who identify as and are tuning in we're going through stuff, so we are going to support each other.
59:17
Yeah, we're not alone in the battle, you know, and this is a part of life and change, and it's not always pretty, but understanding yourself is what empowers you right and finding the glimmers in it, finding the humor, finding the community and the camaraderie. Yeah, and attending a menoparty and coming to a menoparty. Again we're going to put everything in the link of the podcast notes, but I want to give you a moment, Erika, to share a final note. What are your final thoughts with those tuning into HIListically Speaking?
59:52 - Erika Shannon-Hathaway (Guest)
Well, first of all, thank you, Hilary, for having me. It is just so great to see you and I love what you're doing with your podcast. I think it's so important. Thank you with your podcast. I think it's so important and it's such great. Quality, quality content, quality, everything. So thank you for letting me be a part of it. I think, as a closing, I would just say hang in there. You are not alone. There are resources out there for you. All of your feelings are real and valid and all of your symptoms are real, and while we might not be able to fully alleviate them all, and while we will never be able to go back to what we were, we are all able to become something so much wiser and live a full and gratifying and beautiful life in menopause.
01:00:46 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Beautiful Love that. What a beautiful share. Thanks, Erika, this has been great.
01:00:51
Love you dearly, I'm so glad that you're on this journey, and I don't just mean the menopause journey, I mean the journey of supporting yourself and others. So it's great having you. Thanks for being here. Thank you, okay, sunshines, your questions have been answered. And listen if you want to take it a step further.
01:01:09
There is no time like the present to check out one of Erika's mental parties. They are free. They happen every other week. It's a chance to come together as a community and talk about some of these topics. So I would say, check the links in the podcast notes of this episode to find out more about the mental parties, how to work with Erika one-on-one or even just connect with her on social media or her website and listen.
01:01:31
We also talked about the importance of self-care, did we not? And one of the things that I have actually created was how to do self-havening for hot flashes and those hormones. I did this a while back, but I'm going to put a link to that in the podcast notes of this episode as well, so that you can follow along on a guided havening experience with yours truly and give it a try and listen. If you found this episode helpful, do me a solid, leave a rating, a review, wherever you do your listening, whether it's on Apple Podcasts, spotify Podcasts or even on YouTube or any of the other platforms that we are on, which we are on all of them and leave a message because make sure you're also downloading and subscribing, because then that allows others to find this episode or this podcast in general, and it's paying it forward. So do yourself a favor, do others favor and do me a favor.
01:02:22
HIListically Speaking is edited by 2Market Media with music by Lipbone Redding and listened to by you. So thank you for joining me for this party every week and finding more ways to turn your traumas into triumphs and be kind to your mind. It doesn't go unnoticed. On that note, remember that you are never alone in this battle or whatever you are facing. You are supported, you are loved and I am always here to continue pressing record. I'll see you next week. Be well.
-
Embark on a profound journey with Dr. Kate Truitt, the voice of lived experience and scientific wisdom, as she unveils the raw intricacies of her latest work, "Keep Breathing.” Dr Truitt is an award-winning clinical psychologist and applied neuroscientist. She's internationally recognized for her expertise in trauma, stress, and resilience. She calls “Keep Breathing” part autobiography and part scientific exploration. Together, we unwrap the layers of life's adversities, from the anguish of loss to the resilience required to face another day. As Dr. Kate shares her personal journey into the darkness, we intertwine the stronghold of community with the advancing tides of therapy, emphasizing the paramount importance of human connection and trust in the odyssey of healing and light.
FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPTS AVAILABLE
https://www.hilaryrusso.com/podcast
CHAPTERS
00:00 Dr. Kate Truitt Opening Soundbite
00:36 Hilary Russo Episode Intro Keep Breathing
7:49 Navigating Mental Health and Wellness
12:25 Chronic Illness and the Opioid Epidemic
14:57 Changing the Narrative on Loss to Resilience
19:19 Flash Bulb Memories and Vulnerability
32:24 Navigating Grief and New Love
47:09 Rapid Fire Interview With Dr Kate
51:00 Dr. Kate’s Final thoughts
52:30 Hilary’s Close and Information
53:25 Havening for Healing Journey Support
Dr. Kate's Books:Keep Breathing: A Psychologist’s Intimate Journey Through Loss, Trauma, and Rediscovering Life
https://amzn.to/3wuKSnN (Amazon)
Healing in Your Hands: Self-Havening Practices to Harness Neuroplasticity, Heal Traumatic Stress, and Build Resilience https://amzn.to/3WOvYDp (Amazon)
Connect with Dr. Kate on all social media platforms at @DrKateTruitt
Get her free Keep Breathing Healing Companion Toolkit:
https://www.drkatetruitt.com/freeresources
Tune in to Dr. Kate's other conversation on the HIListically Speaking Podcast (Ep 109) and learn about Healing in Your Hands https://www.hilaryrusso.com/podcast/episode/20c0e132/ep109-dr-kate-truitt-the-healing-power-of-touch
Interested in giving Havening a try? Schedule your session and mention you heard about it on the podcast. https://hilaryrusso.as.me/hugitout
Join the next Free Havening Happy Hour. March 27th at 7pm ET. Registration is required https://www.hilaryrusso.com/events
CONNECT WITH HILARY
https://www.instagram.com/hilaryrusso
https://www.youtube.com/hilaryrusso
https://www.facebook.com/hilisticallyspeaking
https://twitter.com/HilaryRusso
https://www.tiktok.com/@hilisticallyspeaking
https://www.hilaryrusso.com/podcast
Music by Lipbone Redding https://lipbone.com/
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
https://www.hilaryrusso.com/podcast00:00 - Dr. Kate Truitt (Guest)
Those behavioral responses, those flash-bowl memories. They're there through an evolutionary construct and that's, I think, such useful information when our brain is grappling with depression and anxiety or suicidal considerations, or just trying to find a way to keep breathing. Fundamentally, Because our brain's good at keeping us alive. It's its number one job. It's not so good at reading the instruction manuals that the 21st century has handed to us for a thriving life.
00:36 - Hilary Russo (Host)
There are people in your life that you will meet that will either be there for a moment, a season or a lifetime You've heard this before and somehow someway no matter how much time they are in your life, because it's just a measurement of time you need to decide the role that they're going to play, especially as life is going forward, and I'm not only talking about those positive moments either, because life is truly about contrast.
01:04
It's about growth, it's about finding balance, personal development right, and Dr Kate Truitt knows that all too well. If the name sounds familiar, it's because she has been here on the HIListically Speaking podcast before, and she was here talking about her first book, healing in your Hands, which was the story of really how we can put self-healing and self-havening into our lives. But now she's back with something much more personal, and I am so elated to have you Kate. Kate the Great, as I call you, someone I consider a friend, a mentor, especially in the world of havening, and you're an award-winning clinical psychologist, neuroscientist, internationally recognized for your work in trauma and stress and resiliency. But more so, you are just a human being going through this life like anybody else, with your own story, and that is really what your newest book is about Keep Breathing and I'm just so glad I get time to share space with you again. It's always a gift.
02:07 - Dr. Kate Truitt (Guest)
Yeah, well, right back at you, Hilary. Thank you so much for inviting me on and I just. You are a friend and a dear colleague and I admire you so much, and so I'm really excited to share about Keep Breathing and to dig in? Yeah, because at the end of the day, we are all just humans doing our best.
02:27 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, Like there's one quote that I love, Kate, and it's we're all just walking each other home right, and that's kind of something that you and I have talked about before, especially with this journey that you're sharing in Keep Breathing. That we're going to get into. But the whole idea that the old school, the old way of therapy and psychology, and sitting across the from your therapist, feeling like you're being judged in a way like tell me all your feelings. It has really changed, because now it's we're seeing more of the traditional therapy, including parts of ourselves, so that you can share with your clients and your patients to let them know I'm human too, and that's. That's so much about what we're we're reading in this newest book, isn't it?
03:17 - Dr. Kate Truitt (Guest)
Yeah, and it well, it's about connection fundamentally. And the purpose of this book in so many respects was to highlight what you just said. When we're a psychotherapist, when we're trained and we've we've got the license, we've got the things, we're put into this expert role and sure there's a lot of information that we have. And, on the other hand, the number one thing that supports the healing journey is connection and report. And when we're invited to divorce our humanity from the healing process, sure there are some reasons for that, clinically, why we do that. And, on the other hand, in a world where disconnection is the rule of thumb, as our job now as empaths, as healers, is to be a connecting space, it really is about that.
04:12 - Hilary Russo (Host)
So the hope for the book was.
04:13 - Dr. Kate Truitt (Guest)
yeah is to highlight hey, you can know a lot of things and, at the end of the day, just a human brain doing human things.
04:21 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I think it also goes back to not just connection but a trust in knowing that as we're walking through this life, we're going to be impacted, we are going to be touch, moved and inspired by different things that come into our lives. And how do we process, how do we go through these things? And I think that's what makes your book a little different than just a traditional memoir. You're sharing this really deep part of yourself through years and this book just isn't about grief. This is so much further. You actually said this is part autobiography and part scientific exploration. Can you elaborate on that?
05:04 - Dr. Kate Truitt (Guest)
Yeah, it's raw.
05:07
I think the tagline that keeps coming back and being reflected to me is it took me five years to write this book and, for context, my first book I wrote in eight months and I love my first book, but this book took five years and it took 10 years to be able to write it, because it does dig into not only the sudden traumatic loss of my fiancee a week before our wedding and that's actually the opening chapter, is me going to give the eulogy and then it uses my story as the case study.
05:43
The Case Study, told in real, deep, first-person, intimate terms, of understanding the impacts of childhood trauma, of chronic illness and pain, of suicidal considerations, and grappling with that very real human darkness that can seep into our souls and hold us captive for so long. And fundamentally also, it's a love story about coming home to self and learning how to partner with our mind and our body and our soul so that we can show up in the world around us no matter what's happening. And then, of course, because I'm a science geek and this is why it took five years really gently integrating the nuances of science into all of that, why is the brain doing these things? Why are our behaviors showing up in these ways that are deeply painful and negatively impactful on our lives, and I talk a lot about that Because really my goal for both of my books was to turn around to my young 16-17 year old self, if I could, and say, if only you'd had this data, dear one. And perhaps somebody else now will have the data and it will help them.
07:00 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, what would you say to your 16 year old self now?
07:05 - Dr. Kate Truitt (Guest)
It's okay, hang in there, baby girl.
07:07 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, hang in there. Isn't that something we constantly need to say to ourselves? We're not separate from the parts of ourselves that are younger. I mean, all parts matter, as we've heard. That's big in the community, but being able to hold space for that younger part of yourself that's feeling scared or insecure or undecided, showing up for that part of ourselves, is really important.
07:40 - Dr. Kate Truitt (Guest)
Extremely important and even the parts of ourselves that are looking at exiting stage, left out of life. One of the final stories I added into the book was and this was a big leap that my editor supported me in making and Chelsea Thompson, thank you. You're amazing, I love. You was really looking at my young, 10 year old self who was struggling with suicidal ideation, and using that as another story to highlight the pain of childhood, the lack of awareness that our young selves can struggle with. And one thing Chelsea said to me as I wrote the story was I'm a mom. I don't really think about the fact that my little kiddo could be going to that level of deep despair. I think about anxiety and stress and depression, but I don't think about that for them. And when I told her how young it started for me, that's her brain. She's like you. Please, if you feel like you can safely tell the story, please do.
08:51 - Hilary Russo (Host)
What's even scarier about that is that you and I grew up in an age where there was no social media, and you know my work as a health journalist. I've covered a lot of stories that tap into that area of how social media can have a real negative impact on your emotional well-being.
09:12
In fact, there have been some statistics and I've shared them before on the age group that it's really impacting. You know that younger age group, the teens, into the early 20s even, and you know, with us not having that and how heavy it was for us then not having this global village to be able to tap into at the touch of a fingertip. How much more is it now and how much more important is this type of book to have so that kids know that they are supported, or the adult in us that's looking back at the child knows they're supported.
09:51 - Dr. Kate Truitt (Guest)
Right.
09:51 - Hilary Russo (Host)
You know.
09:53 - Dr. Kate Truitt (Guest)
Well, yeah, and looking at the idea of the village and how fundamental that is to our deep, deep, beautiful, dear friend.
10:03 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Amy, make it work. We love Amy.
10:05 - Dr. Kate Truitt (Guest)
Yeah, and those core values of safety and belonging and loveability and success, being able to get those core needs met, which is something that I've been developing as part of my model for 25 years.
10:20
But I came up with the idea of Amy when I was a young 20 something working in a rat lab, because I couldn't figure out where. My brain just wanted me dead. And you know, and I had an amazing human who shown so much healing and care on me, which was John, and then 10 years later he died. And that grappling with myself within all of that and really knowing that, as you're sharing, there's our village, and then when we put it into that social media sphere, it escalates exponentially the pressure and the expectation of these fundamental values that our brains are evolutionarily hardwired to lean into. And so if we feel like what rejection feels like in a home environment and then we take that to a global populace, is what and that's what it can feel like in social media, especially for adolescents and teens, and that's why suicide is the number one killer of our young humans these days. It's devastating.
11:20 - Hilary Russo (Host)
It's beyond devastating. Having to dig into those, those statistics, is both a doctor, a neuroscientist and also a journalist. The other side of things, to sit and to come from a compassionate place, because you and I are both empaths, as many people who are of service in this work are it. It's devastating to sit there and think how can I help? And in your writing of Keep Breathing, was that something you thought about? Because it is your own healing journey, that writing this. I'm sure it's cathartic, therapeutic, but were you thinking? In writing this, I really want to share some kind of in a way it's guidance, a guide that lets people know they're okay just how they are and they're supported.
12:13 - Dr. Kate Truitt (Guest)
Yeah, I never would have done it otherwise. It's one thing to pen a story. It's another thing to go through the journey of publishing a book. As I know you're working on your own books and I know you know so well. The vision for this was so much bigger than me.
12:35
Yeah, yeah, my story and it's interesting, Hilary, because my story used to be a unicorn story of being widowed so young, of grappling with chronic illness and layering through that the difficulties of a complicated childhood and a complicated mind, body system, with health and pain and everything. And then, when the pandemic hit, my unicorn story became a normal, devastating story of millions of humans facing unexpected loss and death, of chronic illness seeping into the very fibers of our society. And that was a huge part of what kept me moving forward when many times I wanted to set the book aside. And then the other piece is my fiance, john, who's a victim of the opioid epidemic and looking at chronic illness and pain and so much that has happened in terms of opioid use at a national level. And now you know Netflix has done a great job putting out a lot of really important stories around it and there's a lot of conversation now, more so than ever and at the same time. I was a psychologist, I was trained, I was working with individuals who are navigating addiction.
13:58 - Hilary Russo (Host)
And here my own partner died of an accidental overdose from opioids and I remember what hit me with your book was very early on and I don't want to give this away, but we know that this story is so impactful. But when you went to the blame game and I saw in the quotes I should have been there, I was like ugh, and I think that is one of those things that we go through with. Grief is how the anger, the avoidance and then the blame of what could I have done differently? But you were actually in that space and to be also working in the space, it's kind of there's a level up there.
14:43 - Dr. Kate Truitt (Guest)
You know I felt like I, leveled up on the guilt and the shame and the judgment and just how I flogged myself emotionally for it and carried that.
14:56 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I felt like I failed. What do you feel was the shift? And I feel like it's more than just a shift. But where did you really start seeing a change in how you wanted to change the narrative on this story of losing the love of your life a week before your wedding, really coming to terms with what you've been through in your own life as a child, with your own illness and your own suicidal ideations? Where was it where Kate said I got to do something with this?
15:33 - Dr. Kate Truitt (Guest)
There was an incident at my offices where a past patient of mine came to the offices with the intention of harming me and it was a very scary event and luckily everybody was fine and the situation was contained and the person who needed support got support. And that was one of those moments for me of reconciliation and recognizing that there's so much pain in the world and the slight sidestep here. But this really deep connection to mental health and wellness or human rights and therapy is a privilege. And saying that as somebody who runs a group clinic and also has a training institute and a nonprofit like how do we do everything we can? And then being a part of the havening community, of course, is one of the co-developers to create the butterfly effect of larger change. And in the havening world it's been really powerful and beautiful to witness how those tools and that's where I'm the creator of the Healing in your Hands programs can be disseminated into the communities and, on the other hand, the education around what's happening in our brains isn't readily available and one of the things after that incident in my office is that my team continually reflected and the patients who were in the offices when the event happened and we had full swat on site to helicopters Like this was no joke.
17:12
One of the things that everybody kept continually reflecting back to me was thank God I understood my brain and what happened next in terms of their own journey. And I told everybody go get therapy, go get whatever support you need, go do acupuncture, go get whatever you need. Build me, including all the patients who were there. So my entire team and all the patients like, just know, we've got this, you just send us the invoices, no questions asked, whatever you need. Nobody took me up on it, and for two critical reasons. One, everybody went to the offices and applied havening with their clinicians and literally one of my clinicians was on the roof with her patient of a three-story building.
17:57 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Hey, there's no area that's off limits with this work.
18:00 - Dr. Kate Truitt (Guest)
He's there, no limits, just megawork. And that they understood their brain. And that was where the request really for me started to bubble up and say I've been a specialist in neuroscience and trauma and resilience for going on 20 years now because I needed to make sense of my brain and I've got a pretty wackadoodle story.
18:25 - Hilary Russo (Host)
You're using that word. We love that word. Yeah, I do.
18:31 - Dr. Kate Truitt (Guest)
And to the point of the expert being Because people as experts were like, oh, they don't really experience this. And then we're on the pedestal and it's like no, no, no, no, no. I've had panic attacks in shows. I've done the continual freak out texting with people and just next thing I know it's pages after pages of text messages and nobody's responding. And there's a narrative why our brain engages in those behaviors and they can be so pathologized rather, and instead it's like no, you're just human.
19:04 - Hilary Russo (Host)
That. I'm so glad you say that, because I've been there too and the first thing we want to do is shame ourselves for being human and think I should have known better. Much like I should have been there.
19:19
We think, because we have this higher level of education LNOPs after our name we're on the top of what we do in the world, that we don't feel, and what makes us so beautiful is being vulnerable and courageous to say, oh no, I go through it too. And I'm glad you said that, because I think hearing it from somebody who isn't a place in a platform multiple and I'm not just talking social media, I mean in general where people look up to you we're not untouchable, or you're not untouchable, we're just human beings first right. So you go back to mentioning something you mentioned, something early in the book too, about flash bulb memories and to those who might not understand what that is in the scientific community, can you talk about that a little bit?
20:26 - Dr. Kate Truitt (Guest)
It's a reliving of an experience that has already happened and it's different from deja vu. Sometimes we have those experiences of deja vu of oh, I've been here before, this has happened before In a flash bulb memory. The experience is literally taking over our brain and we're reliving it in the moment, from everything we're hearing, seeing, smelling, tasting, touching, all the way down to our somatosensory or body response, the body memories of the encoding and the thoughts, the feelings of all of it. And when it happens, it's extremely disorienting because our brain has lost sight of the present moment or back in the past, and it's really, really painful and for so many people who don't know what they are but experience them, because that happens in trauma it's extremely crazy.
21:19 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Making yeah, and really that's when we have to show up for Amy and say all is well, this is not happening, it happened right. And really having the tools, of which there are many out there, it doesn't have to just be havening. Obviously, it's what you want to put in your little brain candy jar, as I call it. Pull out what you need in that moment. And just a side note that those listening, there is a wonderful toolkit that Dr Kate is offering. It's Keep Breathing Healing Companion Toolkit. That is a free resource. It's a wonderful download.
21:58
I highly recommend you grab this in addition to Keep Breathing the Book which is coming out in April, and it's a Keep Breathing, a psychologist's intimate journey through lost trauma and rediscovering life, and I'll have that book, as well as Healing, in your Hands available. These are both two wonderful books to put in your library when you need them. Read them more than once. I know this book just from starting to read it. It'll be one of those books I want to read again because it's such an intimate journey and I think this is the kind of book that every time you read it you find something new right.
22:36 - Dr. Kate Truitt (Guest)
Yeah, well, the hope in integrating the science is really helping people partner with their brains and have a theoretical construct for all of those wackadoodle things that happen, and being able to say, oh OK, amy, the Amy, della, amy's having a really hard day, this is happening, that is happening. And being able to reconstruct not just the past but also find through lines on how to create the present. And that's where the Healing in your Hands book is a lovely companion as well.
23:13 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, we will share both those, definitely, yeah, yeah, what is it that you're hoping to see happen with Keep Breathing? That might be different from Healing in your Hands, with us being authors and sharing our journeys and sharing what we know and wanting to put it out there in the world. We just want to help people, right? What's the difference between your first book, healing in your Hands, and where you're hoping to keep breathing?
23:42 - Dr. Kate Truitt (Guest)
Yeah, Healing in your Hands is a healing journey, and it utilizes the self-havening touch as a mechanism of action to empower an entire suite of neurobiological healing tools, and so that is really about partnering and guiding one's own healing journey.
24:06
Through the lens of a lot of the client's case studies that I've worked with and it's so much fun writing it.
24:13
Keep breathing, on the other hand, my vision really was to do a trauma-informed version of the Body Keeps the Score by Vistle VanderKohl, because that is a phenomenal book, but it was originally intended for clinicians and it's become the Bible of understanding trauma, for very good reason.
24:32
It's beautifully written and extremely well-informed and yet it can be a really tough read for people who have trauma. And to take the Brené Brown framework and integrate it into the science, which then basically became kind of me belting out my own story every step of the way, which Brené does so beautifully, in order to reduce shame and enhance self-connection. So really the vision for Keep Breathing is to have a trauma-informed, safe way for people to learn about what's happening in their mind-body system and multiple different levels, not just traumatic loss and grief, because grief is weird. There's so many weird things about grief and loss that feel crazy-making and I use the word crazy with a deep love and care, because that's a term I've given to myself for going on 40 years now, and so I've partnered with that term because I can feel pretty chaotic, which is what crazy is Like ah, what's happening but to also help people see that they're not alone, yeah, and we need that more than ever.
25:43 - Hilary Russo (Host)
And there's humor in the healing anyway, right. So, whether it's crazy wackadoodle, what's the other term. You say, oh, crazy pants McGee. Crazy pants McGee. I think that's the title of another book. Yeah, that's exactly what I mean Crazy pants McGee. But when we find the humor in the healing, we're kind of taking ourselves out of it in the moment, right, almost like what you said about the flash bulb. The landscape of where our brain is taking us in that moment, making us think like the fender bender that we're going through, the intersection of where we had a fender bender once, is actually happening right now, right, and being able to see oh OK, I'm OK, I'm safe, I'm good. I might be crazy pants McGee at the moment, but just holding space for ourselves in that area I think is really important.
26:36 - Dr. Kate Truitt (Guest)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah, and beautifully stated. Because those behavioral responses, those flash bulb memories, they're there through an evolutionary construct. Yeah, and that's, I think, such useful information when our brain is grappling with depression and anxiety or suicidal considerations or just trying to find a way to keep breathing. Fundamentally Because our brain's good at keeping us alive. It's its number one job. It's not so good at reading the instruction manuals that the 21st century has handed to us for a thriving life.
27:20 - Hilary Russo (Host)
And making things more conversational. Like you said, the body keeps a score is a great book. It is a lot to read, right? And then you think about the books that Brene Brown has put out there which have a little bit more lightheartedness. It's like you're sitting down having a conversation with her, yeah, but you're blending the two in a way that makes this a much more conversational. Yet scientific exploration into a personal psychologist journey, you know, oh, that's pretty good. Actually, I like how I just said that. Oh yeah, that was beautiful.
27:53 - Dr. Kate Truitt (Guest)
But it's, I'm just going to pause on that. You can have it.
27:59 - Hilary Russo (Host)
You have for the longest time, in every email, many times in some of your posts even have used the term phoenix rising. You know the phoenix rising. Where did you come up with that? And I know that's a real thing, but why is it so closely attached to Kate?
28:20 - Dr. Kate Truitt (Guest)
Way back in my sweet young teenage years I adopted the spirit animal, the cockroach, and context of that is cockroaches can withstand anything. You cut their head off, they will live for two more weeks. I got to go in a deep dive researching cockroaches when I decided to put this in the book because otherwise, like you need to give context for that and of course it hit the cutting room floor. It's not the context of the human background. We'll keep it in here for you.
28:52
It's here. Thank you, use the data. They're gritty, intense features and by the time I was 18, I think I'd almost died around nine times and I don't go into depth around all of it, but there's just been a lot. And when I met John, he kind of took a stand against me around the whole concept of the cockroach and said you know, that's not exactly the best framework because they're survivors and I'd always been a huge fan of Greek mythology and mythical creatures and leaning into narrative and story.
29:37
And then one day, when I was in the throes of a really, really deep panic attack, I remember feeling that I felt like my body was on fire, which is how panic can often feel and I had severe, debilitating social anxiety. That's how I started in the rat labs, because rats are friendly and they're kind, they don't judge humans are terrifying. And it just started to shift for me the space of I keep going into the flames, I keep feeling like I'm burning up, but I keep coming out of the phoenix, and so that was a totem. I started to try on. And then when I met my now partner, nauz, who I know you've met and hung out with and Irish danced with, we did.
30:22 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Who are you kidding? You were the one that was killing it in the Irish dancing.
30:28 - Dr. Kate Truitt (Guest)
No, no, that was Kim, that was Kim.
30:30 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I don't know, no, anyway, yes, knowing Nauz he's great.
30:35 - Dr. Kate Truitt (Guest)
Yeah, on our very first date we were chatting and he shared with me that he had a totem of the phoenix and he survived and been through a lot and growing up in India and religious wars and just being exposed to a lot of really painful, complex things. And it was this bonding moment that we had of you know what? There will be ashes, there will be fires and pain into power, wounds, into wisdom. And then, because I'm just going to keep talking, hilary, do you know what a group of phoenixes is called? I'm not even gonna guess.
31:15 - Hilary Russo (Host)
An odyssey.
31:17 - Dr. Kate Truitt (Guest)
Oh, oh, I like that you mentioned that in the book I do, I do, I do, and so, as I mean, this was something I'd known for a little while and then, when I met ran, it started doing, havening and moving into this new way of being in the world, and I had phoenixes along the way of my journey, I started noticing this collective community of an odyssey, and from there it's just expanded beyond the haven in community, which is phenomenal and amazing, and to this larger global collective that I walk alongside, and these are all humans who have been in the flames.
32:01
I don't know a single human who has done their work that hasn't burned up, and the reason I call it done their work is being a phoenix means you are aware that you burned. Oh yes, and the scars are things you're proud of.
32:19 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, the first step to any change is the awareness right.
32:23 - Dr. Kate Truitt (Guest)
Yeah.
32:24 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, love that.
32:24 - Dr. Kate Truitt (Guest)
And rather than being, and the transition to the phoenixes. Wait, I'm not going to be ashamed, I'm not going to judge myself, I'm not going to be stuck in self-living, and if I do get stuck there because we do as humans, I'm also going to lean into my village, my odyssey, you. It's the story of the phoenix.
32:50 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Love that and you mentioned that in the beginning of the book when I was first reading your acknowledgements you had. It was somewhat of a dedication to your odyssey, right? Yeah, it is literally.
33:03 - Dr. Kate Truitt (Guest)
I think it's the actual dedication. It is a dedication.
33:06 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I just didn't want to leave anyone out, if but I remember reading that going oh. I love this.
33:11 - Dr. Kate Truitt (Guest)
Yeah, to my village, my odyssey, and we continue to always phoenix up.
33:16 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I love that, kate. The other thing I love that you do mention Nas, because I was going to bring him into this anyway and in that way that you're writing this book. It's really while it's not just about the grief and loss of a partner that you had. There's so much more to the book. But how has it been to be in another relationship, referencing back to an older relationship, and feel vulnerable enough to share it without feeling that you're possibly impacting the relationship you're in now?
33:57 - Dr. Kate Truitt (Guest)
Yeah, and it's interesting you highlight that because that's something my mom has consistently brought up ever since I met Nas, which is like don't talk about John, don't. And from the most loving Karen's face, and Nas is very specifically, uniquely him, human. I have no better way to say it.
34:18 - Hilary Russo (Host)
He's pretty cool.
34:20 - Dr. Kate Truitt (Guest)
He's pretty cool. Yeah, he's pretty cool and from the very you know it's interesting. I told him on her second date that I knew I would never be able to biologically have children. I didn't tell him about John until our 10th date because that, on her second date, was information that he needed to have so he could make a specific choice about whether or not he wanted to continue the relationship. As my body had considerations With John, I was so mindful that I didn't want to be that person that, whatever my brain said that person was.
35:06
And when I started telling him about what had happened, he consistently showed up in a space that was just it's a part of your story. I want to know as much as you feel comfortable sharing. And that's been his through line from day one and writing this book. I kept checking with him because he did. Let me write about him in the book and he's deeply, deeply, deeply private. He's one of the most private people I've ever met in my life, and so I kept reading him excerpts that he's in and, in his own cheeky way, sometimes now he'll quote them back to me and be like, don't forget.
35:50
Page 300 or 200, you said Sometimes I see more than you think, because literally he said that to me last night.
36:03 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I love it. That's a good connection. It'll be fun this time Was that Write a book in what It'll be fun, right.
36:13 - Dr. Kate Truitt (Guest)
But I think the best way to describe it is he's seen all of these weird universal idiosyncrasies and just been there for all of them, and even this diamond that I wear. Nas gifted me last year, for he gave me two necklaces, one for anniversary, one for Valentine's Day, and this is the engagement ring that John gave me. This is the diamond. And then he gifted me another necklace that has the diamonds that were would have been on my wedding band with John and he was just saying John's always with you, he's your angel, he's always with you, and that's Nas.
36:57 - Hilary Russo (Host)
That's more than just a confident human being. That's someone that gets it. It's someone who realizes that that's part of your story and you're here and you two are together now because it's exactly where you're supposed to be now. Right, it's like that quote, that, what is it? I was just sharing this today with a client. Life will give you whatever experiences are most helpful for the evolution of your consciousness.
37:27 - Dr. Kate Truitt (Guest)
How do you know it's the right?
37:29 - Hilary Russo (Host)
experience, because you're having it, that's. Eckhart right and that's a good one, because you sit there and you're like why is this happening? And then you think, oh, it's happening, because it's happening. Right, nas came into your life when he did, because he was meant to be there when he's there. So the reference back to something that was is still part of the is, but it's not the.
37:54 - Dr. Kate Truitt (Guest)
Now you know what I'm saying, I do, I do. And John, the week before he died and this is a story that was one of the hardest stories to write in the book he had said I've always known I was going to die young and I was so mad and literally, driving on the freeway, pulled off onto the shoulder of the freeway, was so mad. He wasn't suicidal or anything, he just he's just this dead pan. And John had a certitude when he spoke about certain things. He was a joyful I mean, he's an April Fool's baby and he embodied everything you could imagine about an April Fool's baby, which is why the book coming out in April 2nd is so precious. And he said this and he looked at me and he said and you will find great love and I'll let you know you have to and my inner 13 year olds going, you're going to die alone and I'll die first. And he's just like you will know.
38:53 - Hilary Russo (Host)
When you look back on that now, how does that impact you? Yeah, oh, he, let me know. Yeah, the greater awareness sometimes people have, we don't even realize it, you know.
39:04 - Dr. Kate Truitt (Guest)
Yeah, it's a larger universal connection. And the chapter two opens up with a quote from John and do you mind if I read it? Oh please do, it's so poignant.
39:20 - Hilary Russo (Host)
And while Kate's finding that, just a reminder that keep breathing healing companion toolkit, she's giving that away. That's a free resource that is available to you. It will go beautifully with the book. What a beautiful companion to the book. So we'll have that in the podcast notes as well as links to the book, which this book keep breathing, drops on the 2nd of April. And then there's also the other book, healing in your Hands, that we'll share as well, because it's why not have both right Right, kate the great in your pocket whenever you need her. But that's the goal.
39:52 - Dr. Kate Truitt (Guest)
That is the goal. If only we could have Kate the great all the time, and on the Dr Ketra dot com, we're cultivating a library of free resources.
40:01 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Love that. We'll share all of that the tool quotes there.
40:04 - Dr. Kate Truitt (Guest)
Yeah, we have a bunch of neuroplasticity exercises because, you know, healing and the life journey is not just about healing the past Beautiful we also have the opportunity to build the future. So John yes, so the chapter called Tomorrow Begins, and this is starting the morning after I found him and I couldn't save his life. And the quote is and the transformation from flesh to earth. We see this symbolic form of transcendence, suggesting its inevitability, whether we see it as fit.
40:41 - Hilary Russo (Host)
He said that and you remember that he said this when he was like 23.
40:47 - Dr. Kate Truitt (Guest)
And you, remember that I have a trunk. He and I were. He was also a prolific writer and so we would, he said. For context, I was in the hospital when I was in my early twenties and he sent me a three-ring binder. That was this thick of our remember AOL and Stitmus. Oh yes, of our aim conversations, because texting didn't exist yet.
41:12 - Hilary Russo (Host)
You're dating us and yeah and it was all of our conversations.
41:17 - Dr. Kate Truitt (Guest)
I still have that, and so when I started writing the book, I went back through, which was a real journey into just my soul, and that was one of the quotes that I found from a poem that he'd written when he was in his early twenties.
41:32 - Hilary Russo (Host)
It's quite extraordinary to think that the internet could be well contrasting, right, positive and negative, because it allows us to really go into the digital library and Rolodex of things that we might normally have to find in a huge library, and it could take hours and hours, in fact. Suddenly I just went back to. I had a flashball moment, but a good one.
42:05 - Dr. Kate Truitt (Guest)
And then it was a good one.
42:06 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, so when we were at the when we were at the library on the campus of Trinity University in Dublin and that library I remember looking around while we were there.
42:15
We went on that tour and thinking how in the world do you find what you need in this place? Back in the day we're talking hundreds of years ago and you know we're of the dewey decibel system age, right, but now everything is just so at our fingertips with the digital age. It really makes us. It gives us, rather, the opportunity to transport ourselves to a place that maybe we have not been to in a very long time.
42:51 - Dr. Kate Truitt (Guest)
Yeah, you know, and reviewing the stories and conversations that we had and I brought a couple into the book Because they're just such in hindsight, going back to your question and how, when I think about what he said, now there's so many flickers to Eckhart Tolle's beautiful point of what was to come and the that quantum physics, human consciousness, integration.
43:33 - Hilary Russo (Host)
With this book being so personal and understanding. Somewhat well, understanding authoring a book, was this one you did completely yourself, or did you find it helpful to have someone? Oh good, no.
43:50 - Dr. Kate Truitt (Guest)
No, no, no, I had. I was on the phone till 4am sometimes with friends as I was writing it. Rebecca who many people who've been to our trainings and knows Rebecca very well. She's on my lead trainers, also just a chosen sister and family member, a fellow Phoenix. She really incredibly helped me tune some of the harder parts of my family's narrative. I, every step of the way, was in conversation with my parents because we do unpack the family story and the narrative and it was critical to me that I be very respectful of every human's journey. Nobody has intended harm, despite the experiences that occurred. And how do we honor and hold space for that and the ancestral journey of all of that transgenerational trauma? So my parents were a huge voice within all of it. Rebecca really played a critical role in identifying some key ways to present some information that would sponsor the story and honor everybody's unique stories. I'm accusing the word story, but that's what it is.
45:04 - Hilary Russo (Host)
And also I've found that there are. Well, we all have a story right. Every single one of us Not everyone's going to pen a book. Not anyone, not everyone's going to talk about it, and part of the difficulty might be for fear of saying or hurting somebody, because you are sharing your truth, right.
45:29 - Dr. Kate Truitt (Guest)
And and with John's family. It was so important to me to be respectful Because I could I could tell the story that I lived with him and they were my family for 10 years and during many of those years they were more my family than my own family and to share the information I was sharing. How do I do that in a respectful, kind, loving manner and also not unpack any information that wasn't mine to share? I'm walking that very fine line and I was very grateful that when I was going through that huge binder, one of the things that John repeatedly circled back to was a permission that I didn't know would happen 10, 15 years later of you have to tell your story, and whatever version of my story is a part of that tell it. And that refrain shows up over and over and over again, going all the way back to when I was 20, 21 years old.
46:39 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Kate, this is such a gift. It's going to help many and I imagine it continues to help you. Yeah, you know it does. This helps me. Oh well it helps me too. I think we learn from each other. You know, and that's so much of what community connection the Odyssey is Right, so I'm so glad that you brought that brought that up, because that was that was definitely an important piece Before we go.
47:09
You know I do this, you know it's coming. I hope you haven't been writing down words too, because I want to do our little rapid fire. As you know, for those who are new to the HIListically Speaking podcast, I do a game called rapid fire at the end, where I write down words that were said by our lovely guests and want to think about the first word that comes to their beautiful brains. So not always positive, not always negative, just is doesn't matter, it's just a word, right?
47:43
So here we go. You ready, yes, okay, some of them might be two words, but right, because you've been on before, so I got to change it up for you, all, right? Well, why don't we start with Odyssey?
47:58 - Dr. Kate Truitt (Guest)
Village.
48:00 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Breathing.
48:02 - Dr. Kate Truitt (Guest)
Life.
48:03 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Whackadoodle Laugh, because that's our favorite word, amy Superhero.
48:13 - Dr. Kate Truitt (Guest)
Belonging Hard one.
48:19 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Safety Hard one.
48:22 - Dr. Kate Truitt (Guest)
Success Complicated.
48:27 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Oh, you didn't. Okay, you changed it up a little bit. All right, she's throwing me for a loop. Okay, community Odyssey Self love Hard one. Can I keep using the same one you?
48:42 - Dr. Kate Truitt (Guest)
can do whatever you want. There are no rules, all right, all right you make the rules, just play the game.
48:47 - Hilary Russo (Host)
That's the rule. Okay, okay, grief.
48:54 - Dr. Kate Truitt (Guest)
Oh, that's a hard one, especially because I'm running this huge workshop and I've been knee deep in all of the science of grief. Grief, it's just, it's a part of life. It needs to be a part of the conversation. Yeah, two words.
49:11 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Childhood trauma, heartbreaking.
49:15 - Dr. Kate Truitt (Guest)
Suicidal, the escape hatch. Phoenix Wounds into wisdom baby.
49:31 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, we're closing on that, yeah.
49:34 - Dr. Kate Truitt (Guest)
We're closing on that. Yeah, wounds into wisdom, baby.
49:40 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, we're closing on that Love, that Beautiful. I adore you.
49:45 - Dr. Kate Truitt (Guest)
I really do.
49:49 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I have not ever had a guest come on more than once, so congratulations, I did not know that.
49:54
So thank you. Yes, I mean, I look, you know that this show is my baby. It is my heart's work and I do get a lot of people that want to be in this space and I'm so grateful for that. But to be able to have you back on and share this other part of Dr Kate Truitt to me felt just so natural. Thanks, Right. So I adore you, I admire you. You are such a mentor and such a spark of wisdom and just there's just so many ways I could describe you, Kate, Kate the Great. But thank you for being here, Thank you for everything you were putting out there in the world.
50:40
And just a reminder we will share everything in the podcast notes, including Dr Kate Truitt's free resources, the book Keep Breathing, even Healing in your Hands, if you haven't heard about it. But go back and listen to that podcast episode, which was, I think, 101. But I can't be certain of that, but we'll put that in there. Good memory. I know it was in the hundreds, early hundreds. Now we're at 149. So look where we are. Of course you are, and I just want to give you a moment to share some final words with those tuning in.
51:17 - Dr. Kate Truitt (Guest)
It's not going to be too different from what I think I wrapped up our last conversation with, which is, Hilary, just be gentle. If we're all a little more gentle with ourselves, it's a skill. It's not frequently something we're taught and it's the game changer. Being human and living in a human world is complicated. When we're soft and we're gentle with ourselves, it opens up entirely new opportunities for connection, for growth and for inspiration. Life really.
51:55 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Gentle is such a beautiful word. As you were saying that and just speaking the word. It really. You know how words have feelings, like colors. Just hearing you say the word gentle, it just seemed nurturing and loving.
52:12 - Dr. Kate Truitt (Guest)
Yeah.
52:13 - Hilary Russo (Host)
That's a really beautiful word and leaving with that, I like that. That's where we're going. Good deal, yeah, thank you, kate.
52:25 - Dr. Kate Truitt (Guest)
Thank you, joy and an honor.
52:27 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Always All right, my sunshine. It's time to be a part of that odyssey that Dr Kate Truitt talks about. Grab a copy of her latest book Keep Breathing a Psychologist's Intimate Journey Through Loss, trauma and Rediscovering Life. This book actually releases on April 2, but there is a link in the podcast notes of this episode to pre-order the book now. You can also download a free companion toolkit, the Keep Breathing Healing Companion Toolkit. It's a free download that Dr Kate is offering a beautiful compliment to her book Keep Breathing.
53:02
That is also in the podcast notes as well, in addition to Dr Kate's first book, which is Healing in your Hands a beautiful way to learn more about self-havening and how you can self-regulate to self-heal. We talked about that on episode 109 of the HIListically Speaking Podcast. So I'm not only going to add the book, I'm going to add the podcast episode so you can find that as well. And if you're curious about Havening, if you want to learn more about how Havening can support you on your healing journey, let's hug it out. All you have to do is set up a little time with me and we'll see if that modality aligns with you.
53:38
HIListically Speaking is edited by Two Market Media with music by Lipbone Redding and supported by you. So thank you for trusting me with your time and with your mind and, as Dr Kate shared so beautifully, be gentle with yourself and when you need help, the odyssey, the community, they're awaiting you. So know that you are supported, that you are beautiful just the way you are and that I love you, I believe in you and I will see you next week. Be well.
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It’s the crucial biological fabric that holds us all together. On this episode of the HIListically Speaking Podcast we pack the mysteries of fascia release by taking you on a transformative journey with the wisdom of Fascia Remedy founder Julia Blackwell. Tune in as Julia shares her story of profound emotional and physical relief. And what she did to turn her lifelong battle with nerve damage into a mission to help others heal from within.
From foam rolling and simple breathing techniques, It’s time to move past the common misconceptions and find solutions to pain management and mobility improvement. We venture beyond the surface and explore the root causes of fascial tension and what you can do right now to “Unlock Your Hips” and unravel the unrest.
FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT AVAILABLE
https://www.hilaryrusso.com/podcast
CHAPTERS
00:00 Intro
04:00 Deep Dive Into Fascia and Pain
13:54 The Power of Fascia in Healing
19:21 Fascia's Impact on Mental and Physical Health
22:00 Fun with Fascia. How do you say the word?
25:20 The Importance of Proper Foam Rolling
32:58 Rapid Fire Game
34:40 Julia’s final share with you
35:16 Hip Unlocking Challenge With Julia
35:40 HUG it Out Challenge with Hilary
Connect with Julia at www.movementbyjulia.com or on social at @movementbyjulia on Facebook and InstagramGet her free foam rolling series Unlock Your Hips: www.movementbyjulia.com/podcast
In honor of Women’s History Month, I’m giving one woman that chance to work with me for free. Just schedule your session and mention you heard about it on the podcast. https://hilaryrusso.as.me/hugitout
Download the free 5-Day HUG it Out Challenge and turn your chaos into calm with confidence. https://www.hilaryrusso.com/5daychallenge
CONNECT WITH HILARY
https://www.instagram.com/hilaryrusso
https://www.youtube.com/hilaryrusso
https://www.facebook.com/hilisticallyspeaking
https://twitter.com/HilaryRusso
https://www.tiktok.com/@hilisticallyspeaking
https://www.hilaryrusso.com/podcastMusic by Lipbone Redding https://lipbone.com/
TRANSCRIPT Full version https://www.hilaryrusso.com/podcast
00:00 - Julia Blackwell (Guest)
Within three months of doing this type of fascia release, I felt more freedom and emotional releases and just a change, such a big change in the feeling function of my arm than I had in 23 years of trying all the other types of modalities.00:21 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Okay, my sunshine, how many times do you have that feeling of pain or discomfort in your back, your neck, your shoulders, any part of your body, your knees and nothing seems to work. Nothing that you're doing to stretch it out, to make it feel better is working at all. It took me years to understand that you really have to get to the root of the issue of these kind of things. And then I tried fascia release therapy. Game changer how I found it was. I took a trip to Costa Rica and I was doing a retreat and I gave it a try. It was part of the retreat and let me tell you, it made a huge difference and I realized that there were parts of my body that I truly didn't understand and there were things that I was holding within that I didn't know how to release and I needed a little help, as we all do right.01:16
So Julia Blackwell is a fascia release practitioner, she's an educator, she is the creator of the fascia remedy, and you may be wondering what the heck is fascia? Right? All good, all good, we're gonna cover that. That is why Julia is here on, HIListically Speaking, not only to share more about what fascia is, but what you can do to relieve that pain, to be more mobile, to increase your performance. And, julia, I know that you have your own story and I'm so grateful to have you here, because this is a topic I haven't HIListically Speaking, and I think it is so important because it affects our entire body as a whole, doesn't it?01:57 - Julia Blackwell (Guest)
Oh yeah, absolutely, and yes, thanks so much for having me on.02:00 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Of course. So let's talk about fascia Before we go any further. Let's define what fascia is, so there's a clear understanding of it.02:10 - Julia Blackwell (Guest)
Oh, absolutely. Also, just from my Cincinnati roots, I'm gonna call it fascia because all of my hard A's, it's just hard to have it to think.02:20 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I love that. Yeah, I'm sure it's called something everywhere. There's different dialects all over the world who tune into HIListically Speaking , so I love that you bring that up.02:29 - Julia Blackwell (Guest)
Yeah, it's correct both ways. But yeah. So fascia is the biological fabric that organizes all of the water and material in your body. So you can think of it like plastic wrap that wraps around every single thing that you have. So every muscle fiber, every muscle, every bone, ligament, tendon, organ, blood vessel, nerve, it's all wrapped in this connective tissue. That's one uninterrupted, interconnected system that functions as a unit. So this little three-dimensional plastic wrap suit that we wear on the inside is so imperative for the shape and structure that you see in the mirror that is you. So if that were to magically disappear out of your body, you would go tumbling to the ground in a pile of bone fragments and goo. Or, as on the flip side, if everything else except your fascia were to magically disappear out of your body, you would largely still look like you. So it's this very covert but very important tissue. It's the most abundant tissue we have actually in our body.03:38 - Hilary Russo (Host)
So basically it's keeping us all together, right?03:42 - Julia Blackwell (Guest)
Oh yes, it's imperative to attaching everything to what needs to be attached to, and then it's also separating things that need to be separated. That's why we don't just balloon water down in our legs, so it organizes all of that water and material.04:00 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Now I know people tend to just go right to the roller, the foam roller, as a way to alleviate the pain or discomfort. There's really more to this kind of release therapy than just the roller itself, right.04:17 - Julia Blackwell (Guest)
Absolutely. There's a specific way to approach fascia. It plays many, many roles in our body besides just that structural and connective element, and one of those roles is to protect us. So it's what helps absorb shock, it's what subconsciously can brace for impact. So that's how we prevent more extreme injuries when we bang our elbow against the wall or maybe something more intense, like you crashed your mountain bike. But that protective element of it actually makes it a little bit difficult to change. Fascia does not change easily. So rolling around aimlessly on your roller or just really trying to beat your body into submission with this really intense trigger point isn't really the best way to approach fascia.05:09 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Okay. So I know you have your own story too. I mean, there's always something that brings us to the work we do right. And for you, you dealt with pain for a number of years and it sounds so similar to some of what I dealt with with my own story, as I mentioned when we were just chit chatting before. Like I had major TMJ surgery, temporal mandibular joint, but I also dealt with a lot of shoulder pain and when I was reading your notes before we had a chance to meet, I was like, oh man, I totally resonate with what she's saying, because we deal with this discomfort and this pain and our healthcare system has been failing us in this area. If they don't know the answer, they say well, it's in our head or you just have to deal with it and that's or here's a pill to make the pain go away. And you took a deeper dive, you really took control of your own health and I love that. So share a little bit about your story because I know it's going to resonate with people. Yeah, sure.06:09 - Julia Blackwell (Guest)
So I was almost a 10 pound baby Wow.06:13
And I know my mom is this tiny five four lady. So I'm so sorry, mom, but in the in the process of being born I got stuck. So in the attempt to pull me out, the doctor ended up stretching and tearing most of the nerves in my right shoulder. So while I did have a nerve regraft surgery at about four months old, after that they really sent me home and wished me the best of luck and that was about it. So I was still left with a lot of limited mobility, a crazy amount of tension and just a lack of strength in that arm.06:56
So growing up I went through what I now call the Western medicine system run around, which is going from doctor to doctor, practitioner to practitioner for all of these check-ins or, you know, treatments, if we want to call them that, without really any change. Or if I felt any change, it was very fleeting. I would feel better for about a day and then things would go right back to where they were before. And you know, most people told me there was nothing that was ever going to change about this problem. It was always going to be this way and if anything, it was only going to get worse, which is frankly crazy a crazy thing to tell anyone, especially kids, who have a much more suggestive mind, but we don't have 10 hours to talk about the things that doctors say to patients, right? Yeah, and you know largely I had accepted that and, really disconnected from my body, I rarely used my right arm at all because I figured it was simply a burden.08:02
It was something that was never going to get any better and I still did try all kinds of different modalities.08:09
You know as many things as the 90s in Ohio had to offer and, yeah, I got all the tools and gadgets you guys are probably familiar with.08:23
I went to so many different experts and had all kinds of treatments, but it wasn't until I moved out to Boulder in 2011 that I met someone who did a very specific and very obscure type of fascia release, and I hadn't ever heard of fascia, which is wild.08:43
I think I learned of it very briefly and fleetingly in college as an exercise physiology major, but had no real idea of what this thing was and it absolutely blew me away. So within three months of doing this type of fascia release, I felt more freedom and emotional releases and just a change, such a big change in the feeling function of my arm than I had in, you know, 23 years of trying all the other types of modalities. So it certainly made a big impact on me. I was like, wow, if this can make a difference for something that has been, you know, told to me that it is just irrevocable, what can this do for all of these other people experiencing pain and mobility problems just like me? So it catapulted me into doing what I do now and being obsessed with sharing about fascia with everyone.09:46 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Is that the way it always happens, though? When we find a solution for ourselves, we truly want to share it in any way we possibly can to help more people so that they don't go through the struggle we went through?09:57 - Julia Blackwell (Guest)
Oh my gosh, absolutely, and you know, even since that initial experience. You know I'm a very active person. I've had bouts of knee pain, of low back pain, of neck pain and once you understand about fascia and how to release it and where to go to release it, I can solve just about any pain in a matter of days. It can be really simple when you understand where you need to go and how you need to release it.10:24 - Hilary Russo (Host)
And it's really about being an advocate for your own health, you know, understanding your body and what you need, and ask questions. I think a lot of times we go to doctors or we a lot of times people go to doctors and they just listen to what the doctor has to say and that's that and it's. And if you're not asking questions or if you feel strange or that, oh, I shouldn't be asking them. They're the authority. Nobody knows your body better than you and what you're feeling and what you're going through and what you're experiencing. And it's okay to ask questions. In fact, you should ask questions, you know.11:04
And I got to tell you, julia I don't know how many times I've lost doctors that I've chosen specifically for a functional or integrative medicine. If them having that as part of their studies because you know those are extracurricular studies right, they don't learn that in medical school, but they don't learn nutrition, they don't learn the integrative approaches, and doctors will be the first to tell you that it has to be an extended, like it's extra education, right, but I've lost so many doctors because they're leaving these practices to go into their own practice so that they can serve people better, because a lot of them have been through their own stuff.11:46 - Julia Blackwell (Guest)
Yeah, I think that's a you're hitting on a really good point to remind everyone, which is doctors are going to school to make sure that they can save your life.11:55
They're mostly learning about medications and really imperative symptoms that they need to be able to catch early and and again save your life. If that's what's needed, they really don't have the training on, like what you said about nutrition, about gut health, about mental health, about fascia, about all of these things, and so it's very common that someone goes to the doctor for pain and they're only gonna get back what that person is trained in. So your doctors likely going to recommend pain pills, recommend a cortisone shot, you know, possibly recommend PT as well, but even things so far as surgery, and it's like if I can predict what they're gonna say. So most times, even when I was younger, I would be like you know, thank you for your time. I wanted to make sure this wasn't super serious and you know, politely, I'm gonna do this on my own yeah, and I wish I had that kind of knowledge when I had my TMJ surgery.12:57 - Hilary Russo (Host)
But I was 15, like what do?12:58
you know you trust your parents, you trust your doctor. I've even had my mom come to me and say I'm so sorry, I didn't understand or didn't know, but that I don't blame right. But back then it was like here's the surgery, here's how you heal. There was no our Vedic. I've even had a vague therapist come to me and say you never had like any kind of massage on the inside. Nobody did anything to your job, like no, it was surgery and recovery. There was no rehabilitation and that's just that specific issue.13:31
But I know there's people out there that have have been through their own upsets in their body, their own traumas in their body, and are still trying to figure out ways to relieve the pain but also manage it right. Because that which gets measured gets managed, that which we understand, we can befriend and have a relationship with it. And I'm curious like what area can fascia really help? We know we mentioned, we're thinking, the physical, we're thinking like the knees, the neck, the shoulders, parts of the body. But can it actually help deeper, like internally, like, say, with migraines or areas that you might not see and be able to physically move? But by relieving or causing release with the, the kind of work you do. Can it go deeper and help other problems?14:27 - Julia Blackwell (Guest)
yes, so because fascia wraps around every single thing in your body. It therefore influences the position and function of everything. So if it wraps around nerves and blood vessels and joints and bones, right, something that you likely think is a disc issue, it's a structural issue, it's a migraine that seems totally at a left field. These are all things that are in fact related to fascia. So if we go back to that plastic wrap analogy you know that's not like a hundred percent accurate, but it's a good way to visualize it.15:04
To start, if that area of plastic wrap starts to stick to itself and become more restricted and dehydrated, like a little crumpled up ball of plastic wrap, that's going to start to pull on a whole series of muscles and bones and then you're likely going to experience something that's further down the line, that has nothing to do with that actual area of crumpled up plastic wrap. But again, it could be a pinched nerve, something that you think is nerve related, something that you think is joint related, or, you know, I've heard it be called structural things. I can't tell you how many people have come to my office and they're like well, I'm concerned about this knee pain, but I also know it's a structural thing and I'm like, oh, pumpkin, let's get started you call him pumpkin.15:53
I call him sunshine, yeah, I was like you're my people let's, let's start working and then you, you know, we can decide if this is an actual structural problem, because most of the time it's not. There's a reason that your disc is being herniated right and it's not actually your spine. It's because there's a whole series of facial tension and muscles being pulled in a different direction, causing that disc to be herniated. So I'm very big about helping other people find the root cause instead of you know. You mentioned pain management. I sort of hate that term. So it's like why would we want to manage pain?16:30 - Hilary Russo (Host)
let's actually find the root cause and straight up, eliminate it yeah, well, when I mean manage, it's, it's building that relationship too, because when you think pain management, sometimes you do think traditional doctors. But sure one, what? What can be helpful with that is not just sloughing it off as oh, it is what it is right. There is a way to get to the root cause of whatever it is. Whether we can help with that, you know, with the work you do, or with the work I do, or we can find somebody for you that can be part of your. You know your entourage that helps you on your healing journey. You know Absolutely how can this really become unhealthy in your body if you don't learn how to get to the root cause.17:23 - Julia Blackwell (Guest)
Well, there's a couple different ways. I suppose we can start with what causes fascia to become unhealthy in the first place. So number one likely the most common is underuse. None of us are really moving the way that our bodies are intended. Myself included, I end up spending a lot of time with my work looking down as I work on people. We all spend more time sitting or at desk than we ought to, and so not moving our body in that full range of motion or in all of this very dynamic ways of moving, that's a big one. Repetitive movements in a more in an overuse way is also big.18:04
So I've worked on a lot of professional athletes over the years. So the baseball players, the tennis players, anyone who is swinging in the same way over and over again or throwing in the same way, that can absolutely start to change and restrict fascia. Injury any type of trauma that you've had, whether that's emotional or physical, something like a car accident and just stress in general. Those were the most common, and so we all have trauma. We've all had injuries before. It's just a process of the more time we have on this earth, the more things that we accumulate.18:46 - Hilary Russo (Host)
You have a different baggage. You either store it in the seat pocket in front of you the overhead or you check it. Sometimes you can fit it under your seat, but we all have trauma or baggage of some type, and when we learn where we can store it or where it is stored rather, then we know how to deal with it and hopefully we don't have to check it.19:09 - Julia Blackwell (Guest)
Right, yeah, but if it is something that's happening, you'll likely experience some kind of stiffness, achiness, pain could be fully chronic pain. We talked about pinched nerves, about poor posture. There's really an endless list of things that you might start to feel when your fascia becomes more dense. It becomes more dehydrated. You might feel like you're very prone to injuries and you're pulling muscles a lot, or feeling like it takes a really long time to recover from your workout. Maybe you've got a lot of brain fog and you just feel more heavy and dense and sluggish. There's a lot of different ways that fascia could be impacting both your mental and your physical state.19:56 - Hilary Russo (Host)
That's so important that we talk about that too, because it isn't just the physical, it is the emotional, mental as well. And I've found a lot of relief just in the work that I do, especially with the havening technique and even with hypnotherapy, that using these beautiful tools, these neuroscience-based tools, it has helped me even on my own journey, but even with my clients who might be dealing with upsets in their body, what you would normally help folks with Whether it is mobility or performance and being able to work with multiple practitioners, like I said, kind of building your tribe, your entourage can be very helpful, because getting to the root isn't just one thing. It's almost like when you're planting a garden you don't just worry about the soil, you worry about the sunlight, you worry about the watering, you worry about a number of different aspects of it, and all of those are like the tools, the little brain candy that you're putting in there. So it's really important everyone to really understand where you are feeling this and is it emotional, is it physical? Because it all comes back to that gut-brain response. It's affecting you in every area of your body and it's just finding the right people to serve and help you. So I want to stop real quick, julia.21:22
Just to mention to folks that Julia has graciously referred to share her free foam rolling video. It's called Unlock your Hips. I love that, by the way. That's really great, and I'm going to share that in the podcast notes so that you can download it. You have Julia right by your side, of course. We'll share more information about Julia so that you can reach out to her if you want to Tap into this even further and learn more about what she does. And let's kind of get into things a little deeper though, too, because you have this program called the. I'm going to say Fasha. I want to say it so badly.22:05 - Julia Blackwell (Guest)
It sounds so aristocratic when I say it that way, fasha does sound fancier. I'll definitely do that it does.22:12 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I feel like maybe that's a New York thing, I don't know. So I want to take a poll with folks real quick. Would you say Fasha, or would you say Fasha, or do you say something else? Let me know. Share it in a comment to me. Let's find out what you say. I'm curious because you know different dialects all over the country and even all over the world. You hear everything, but nothing's wrong. We start wronging ourselves. That's when we really question what we feel about ourselves. So, Fasha or Fasha, let us know. Oh, it is like really hard to say that. So can you tell us about the remedy that you've created?22:54 - Julia Blackwell (Guest)
Well, the fashion remedy is the methodology that I've created. After all of the experience I've had running my practice the last decade and a bunch of different modalities that I've learned, I've taken a lot of the most effective pieces and made my own amalgamation. So I'm now teaching certifications in both foam rolling and the actual bodywork technique that I do in my practice in Denver. So that's more of the educational side of my business. If anyone is interested in learning how to, I mean mostly do it for yourself, but you can also now, after that, be able to do it for other people as well.23:34
I've had a lot of people go through the program simply because they want to be able to work on their partner or their daughter or someone that really needs it, and they're like this is the only thing that has ever worked and they get it. They see the results for themselves because it is. It's different. It's different from a lot of things that are out there, mostly through understanding pain patterns and these lines of pull we have in the body and also by having the active movement component of what I do. So, even though you know we talked about my free foam rolling video series, it's not your standard rolling friends, it's not just aimlessly rolling back and forth on the roller, it's very intentional. There's a lot of slow breathing and active movement and it really makes a big difference when you're looking to make change to something that normally does not want to change easily.24:28 - Hilary Russo (Host)
The fact that you mentioned breathing. I want to elaborate on that because breath is so important. And the fact that it's not just about just rolling around on your roller, because I learned that when I actually learned the technique myself, that it's very intentional where you are placing the roller, how long it's sitting there, how you were breathing during the entire process and really the release you feel in such a short amount of time, like I never experienced anything like it. So I think it's very important for us to to elaborate on that, that it's not just rolling around on a roller, because we see them at the gym, right, a trainer might tell you to get on it for a couple of minutes to release some of the tension. I, I get it, but it's it's so much more. And the tools. If we have the tools for ourselves, like you say, or your family or somebody that you love, that you could encourage them how to do it correctly. It it's going to help everyone in the long run, right?25:32 - Julia Blackwell (Guest)
Yeah, and it really depends on what is your intention when you're using a roller in general, right, so you know, if you've been rolling around on your roller up until this point, it's certainly not wrong. That's the way I think they originally intended it to be used. However, while it's going to create a little bit of heat through friction and might be a good warm up tool, it might be able to hydrate some of the more superficial layers. You're not able to affect the deeper layers of fascia and that's usually what's causing the problem when it comes to pain. So if you're really looking to solve something like pain or a mobility restriction, rolling, unfortunately, is not going to be able to cut it.26:11 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah yeah Is. Is unlock your hips just a video series, or is it all part of a podcast as well? I think that was a little unclear on that.26:20 - Julia Blackwell (Guest)
So it's a free video series that lives on my website and it's just a way for you to start learning how to foam roll in the way that I typically recommend. So and I know we were going to talk about breathing yeah, breathing is definitely breathing yes.26:37
Breathing. So no, no change can happen in our body without our nervous system saying that it's okay. And the odds are going to go way up if our nervous system is in a parasympathetic state, which is just the calming side of our nervous system, right? So the easiest way that we can tap into that calming side of the nervous system is through breathing really deeply, down to the low abdomen and through the diaphragm. So I will say the type of fascia release and the type of rolling I recommend people do. There can be a lot of intensity to it.27:14
Usually, the first time someone hops on and starts doing it this specific way, they're like what, the what? This hurts a lot. So I'm like, okay, we need to figure out where is a place that we can be at maybe a six or seven out of 10 on their subjective scale with the intensity at a max. So does that mean that we need to wrap the roller in a yoga mat to add padding? Does it mean we need to stop and breathe really deeply a few times before we start the actual movement?27:45
Either way, that's a really important part of this, just so that your body can integrate this change more effectively. So you get no gold stars for a scrunched face, holding your breath, gritting your teeth as you really quickly move through this movement. It's not going to do the same thing. So I absolutely would say it's a huge part of what I do is being able to re or just change your relationship with sensation. Like, can we actually train your body to feel safe while you're feeling a lot of sensation? Because most of the time when you feel something that intense, it's a bad thing, right? So if you can train yourself to be calm through this range of motion and while you're doing this release, it can also really change your relationship with stress in general. So I've seen it have some very interesting effects on people's stress management overall.28:44 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Oh, I love that you're hitting on that, because I say that all the time, especially with the havening work, because havening is a transitive verb for the word haven, which means safe place, and you need to have that safe place. If you are in a state of fight, flight, freeze or fawn, you certainly are not going to be feeling calm and connected to what you're doing. So, even with this kind of work, it's knowing that this is a tool that's going to help you and serve you and it's a safe place to be. So hitting on that is so important and obviously anytime we can be in parasympathetic. High five to that right Great.29:23 - Julia Blackwell (Guest)
Yeah, it's certainly a process. It's certainly a process that took me maybe even a couple of months, when I first was doing this on my own, of being like man. I really have to take my time, I have to move slower. Maybe I am unable to do the full range of motion that I wanted to the first couple of times, but it does get better quickly, I would say. Most people that I work with, even after just two weeks, they're like oh my gosh, this is way less intense than it used to be because you're able to integrate those changes much more quickly through this style.29:59 - Hilary Russo (Host)
And you're able to properly restore it, you're able to see it change. I mean, how fast, would you say? I know every person is different it's bioindividuality but over the time that you've been working with folks in this area, how fast do you see them finding that relief?30:19 - Julia Blackwell (Guest)
Well, you're right, it certainly depends on the individual. I have man as good. 75% of people feel a difference after one time that they'll be like wow, I feel a lot lighter, I feel more blood flow, I feel at least a small decrease in the sensation I was feeling. But even, as I would say, maybe as long as two weeks, two to three weeks, to feel something, but it happens quickly within the first couple of weeks, absolutely, people feel a difference.30:52 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Is it encouraged that folks do it daily, that they foam roll daily, or even more than just the foam rolling, the breathing, everything that comes along with your remedy?31:03 - Julia Blackwell (Guest)
So if you're experiencing a lot of pain and discomfort, I would say doing it daily would be really helpful, just because we want to interrupt this pattern of the nervous system firing this pain signal. We want to interrupt any poor movement patterns that might be happening in the body. However, we also need to find this place where we're not overdoing it or overworking the tissue, and that absolutely depends on the person. So actually just had a client come in after I think we'd had a week and a half apart of him coming in and he was like, oh my gosh, I did the foam rolling every day, sometimes twice a day, and I'm feeling pretty good, but I'm like really sore. I've been really sore all week and I'm like, okay, so we actually don't want that. We want to do less is more sometimes with that.31:57
So I've certainly seen that a lot where someone with back pain. I show them how to release their quads really effectively and they feel relief and so they're like, wow, if I felt that much relief from releasing my quads for five minutes, what will 30 minutes do? But it's overdoing it. So if there's any kind of soreness, if there's really, spending more than five minutes on an area is truly unnecessary, in my opinion, when you're doing the active movement component. So, depending on the person, you might want to back it off and do it every other day or a couple of times a week and just see how your body feels Great.32:36 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Good tips, love that. So just a reminder that Julia is giving away a free foam rolling video. It's part of her series called Unlock your Hips. Again, I love that. We're going to put the link in the podcast notes to movement by Julia, which is her website. And then also, I want to play a little game with you, julia. This is something I do with my guests at the latter part of the podcast. I'm going to throw out a word to you and I want you to come back with a first word that comes to mind.
Julia Blackwell (Guest)
oh, no, okay.
Hilary Russo (Host)
Oh, I know, I love it. I love this reaction. I keep thinking I should do this at the beginning, but then that changes everything. We'll have a little fun here. Okay, all right, here we go. Breath, deep. Mobility.
Julia Blackwell (Guest)
full Body work
Hilary Russo (Host)
Lovely, you're good at this, you're fast. Parasympathetic
Julia Blackwell (Guest)
Nervous system.
Hilary Russo (Host)
foam Roller.
Julia Blackwell (Guest)
Remedy fascia.
33:37 Hilary Russo (Host)
And then the last word is fascia. I'm going to say it your way. Fascia, Fascia, tomato, tomato, same thing, same.33:58 - Julia Blackwell (Guest)
I love it.34:00 - Hilary Russo (Host)
This has been a pleasure. I've been really, really happy to have you talk about this. This is again, like I mentioned earlier, it is a topic I haven't covered and I feel that this is so important because, again, it's about understanding your body, the friending the parts of your body, and realizing that there are tools out there, my friends, that can help you, that you might not have discovered yet, or, if you have, maybe just understanding how to do it better, support your body better and Julia, you've been a great source for that and the fascia remedy.34:35 - Julia Blackwell (Guest)
We're going to share everything about that, the links in the notes, and is there anything you want to share, just with listeners, as a final thought, Just that I deeply understand what it feels like to think you're some kind of a medical unicorn and that there's nothing out there that can possibly help because your thing is so specific or it's so severe. But there really can be answers that you just don't know how to get there yet, and I'm certainly happy to help anyone on that path because I know how it feels.35:07 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, I get it. We're here to serve right. Absolutely. Thanks for being here. Thanks so much, Hilary.35:16
If you want to learn more about Julia and the fascia remedy, be sure to connect with her on social media. Also, head on over to her website for that free foam rolling video series that she's sharing called Unlock your Hips. I know I'm going to be downloading it. I hope you do too. Give it a try.35:33
All of her info is available to you in the notes of this episode, and if you're interested to see how havening can help you with the emotional side of your journey and be kind to your mind, I want you to do yourself a favor. I have a new challenge out there for you. It's called HUG it Out challenge five day challenge. Give it a try. Part of that challenge is a self havening guided video experience with me to help you change your thoughts, your moods, your behaviors, your habits and really help you from getting unstuck.36:10
Okay, and it's a fun way to take control of your health and start being empowered to live your best HIListically ,Speaking, is edited by two market media, with music by Lipbone Reading and supported by you. So thank you again and again for making this conversation, and many conversations part of your day. Just by listening to HIListically Speaking Podcast and supporting you're taking a step in the right direction to be an advocate for your own health. I'm proud of you for that. I love you, I believe in you and I will see you next week.36:48
Be well. -
As a March baby myself, there's an extra spring in my step when this month rolls around, not just for the promise of longer days but for celebrating the indomitable spirit of women throughout history. But what about our own stories of triumph and the quiet impact we've made? That's the heart of our latest chat, where we turn the spotlight inward and take a deep dive into the importance of the words we use and choose and the thoughts and worries that determine our day. I got real about the inner battles we all face, like stress, self-doubt, and that nagging inner critic that's all too familiar. I share my journey of overcoming these hurdles with insights into neuroscience, and discuss how changing our mindset can dramatically alter our relationship with stress. Plus, a giveaway for one lucky listener and a bonus meditation to close our conversation.
In honor of Women’s History Month, I’m giving one woman that chance to work with me for free. Just schedule your session and mention you heard about it on the podcast.
https://hilaryrusso.as.me/hugitout
Connect with Hilary:
https://www.instagram.com/hilaryrusso
https://www.youtube.com/hilaryrusso
https://www.facebook.com/hilisticallyspeaking
https://twitter.com/HilaryRusso
https://www.tiktok.com/@hilisticallyspeaking
https://www.hilaryrusso.com/podcast
Music by Lipbone Redding https://lipbone.com/
----- EPISODE CHAPTERS WITH SHORT KEY POINTS ------
CHAPTERS
0:00 Intro about March and Honoring the Divine Feminine
0:45 Confronting the inner bully, worries and self-doubt
1:06 Hilary shares her personal story and the If/Then Game
3:33 Relate. React. Respond.
4:48 Hilary’s giveaway to HUG it Out
5:45 Bonus Guided Meditation with music by Lipbone Redding
--------- EPISODE TRANSCRIPT ---------
Full Transcript available here: https://www.hilaryrusso.com/podcastHILARY RUSSO
00:00 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I am all kinds of giddy because March is my favorite month. It marks the beginning of spring. Daylight Savings is just around the corner. It's the month when I was born Shout out to you if you're a March baby too. And it's Women's History Month. What a great time to be empowered and inspired by what other women have accomplished over the years. Who's your favorite? Who inspires you? Actually, I have a better question for you. What about your own accomplishments, and who have you touched, moved, and inspired in your life?
00:35
Now, if you're struggling with that thought, if you have a hard time thinking that you've made a difference in someone's life and you're hard on yourself, wondering why someone else is getting more done in their lives, or you're overwhelmed and you're feeling stuck, that inner bully is definitely showing up in the moment. How many times do you let that doubt creep in? You allow the inner dialogue to take over and enter stress? I get it. I've dealt with it too.
01:05
Here's a little story for you. My dad used to call me a worry wart, because if I could worry about something, I would find it, and I would definitely worry about it to the end of time. In fact, I had this ridiculous game that I used to play. I called it the if-then game. Yeah, I even gave it a name. It made no sense at all. It would go something like this If I can toss that little piece of paper into the wastebasket, then I'm going to get an A on my test. Yeah, like I said, it makes no sense. Here's another one If I can make that light before it turns red, I'm totally going to get asked to prom. So, spoiler alert, I got asked to prom, but it really had nothing to do with me making the red light. It's ridiculous, right? How the hell did any of this benefit me? What was the value in that kind of game? Reality check, it had no positive impact on my life. If anything, it made me more stressed and I was putting way too much pressure on myself.
02:11
You see, stress consumed me as a kid and it didn't stop there. The smallest things would worry me. I was anxious, I would have panic attacks about things I couldn't control, but the one thing I actually could control was my thoughts about the thing I was stressing about. Imagine that it was a vicious cycle, but I didn't have the tools and I felt the overwhelm and I felt it often and it sucked. And it wasn't just Hillary as a kid, it was also the adult, me as well. Man, adulting, it can be hard, and it comes with its fair share of responsibility, doesn't it? But the bigger responsibility is not the task at hand, it's what I'm about to share with you right now.
03:01
I figured something out you can control much of what you're feeling by changing your mindset, your energy, your thoughts. This isn't woo-woo, this is neuroscience. And when I started to really do the inner work, when I found others who could guide me and support me on my journey, something really changed. I changed, and guess what? It's something I work at every day, because stress doesn't go away, turns up in life daily. The difference is this it's not that you are void of it, you just learn to relate, react, and respond to it differently. That's the gold, right there. Let me say it again Relate, react, respond.
03:55
The moment you get that in check, you open yourself up to a whole lot of goodness in life. But how? Yeah, I ask myself that question a lot, and it is pretty common to have doubt. After all, that's where our brain loves to go Fight, flight, or freeze. Right, Amy the amygdala is like a scared animal running for shelter, and when that happens, you spend a lot of time visiting skeptical city, questioning yourself, your actions, feeling stuck.
04:31
The big shift is deciding how long you want a vacation there. Stress central, please. There are plenty of other stops on this train I would rather get off at, so let's make that happen. And here's the good news. Like I said, march is the Wonder Month, my month, your month, women's month. So the best gift I could receive to celebrate another trip around the sun is to give you the gift of healing. HUG it Out going to together. That is why I am giving one lucky woman the opportunity to work with me one-on-one, for free, to work through the stress that is consuming you, keeping you stuck, stopping you from shining like that bright star that you are. Whatever is holding you back and weighing you down will work through it and we'll HUG it out. All you have to do is take that first step and tell me why you would like to work with me, and then just click the link on the podcast page to give it a shot. The cool thing is we get to have a conversation either way, so it's really a win-win.
05:43
So while I have you for the next few minutes, let's do a moment of mindfulness with my dear friend Lipbone, who shares his music on every episode to accompany us on the journey.
05:59
Let the music guide you as you close your eyes and take a deep breath and ask yourself this question what is stressing me out that I want to work through? How do I want to feel? Joy, peace, calm, whatever it is. Let it show up for you, honor, it be okay, accepting this part of you, and then ask yourself this when is now the right time to step into the tension and know I am being handed the gift of guidance and support? Sit with that for a moment and take a deep breath and, when you're ready, open your eyes and know whatever it is you are feeling, it is valid and you are loved. HIListically Speaking, it's a beautiful possibility, isn't it, to see what is on the horizon and know that I am in your corner the entire way. So, on that note, give yourself the gift of healing and take a chance, a chance on yourself. Book the call and we will continue with a new conversation next week and until then, be kind to your mind and don't forget to laugh.
-
Have you ever felt the weight of time, wishing for just a single day more to achieve your dreams? Time's elusive dance is the heartbeat of this episode, as we weave through the tapestry of a leap year's extra day—a gift of time. Along with listeners' shares, we ponder a number of ways you could enrich your life with those precious extra hours. From personal growth to the bliss of extra sleep, we explore the delicate balance of effort, surrender, and trust and take a brave leap forward to relinquish the reins of control, just a bit. Plus, a challenge that’s like having me in your pocket whenever you need it.
Download the FREE HUG It Out 5 Day Challenge!https://www.hilaryrusso.com/5daychallenge
Connect with Hilary:
https://www.instagram.com/hilaryrusso
https://www.youtube.com/hilaryrusso
https://www.facebook.com/hilisticallyspeaking
https://twitter.com/HilaryRusso
https://www.tiktok.com/@hilisticallyspeaking
https://www.hilaryrusso.com/podcast
Music by Lipbone Redding https://lipbone.com/
----- EPISODE CHAPTERS WITH SHORT KEY POINTS -----
CHAPTERS
0:00 Intro
1:21 Why do we have a leap year?
2:41 Audience shares. What they would do with extra time.
6:22 You choose to choose and the HUG it Out challenge.
8:22 Eight ways to leap into better health.
15:29 Closing thoughts
--------- EPISODE TRANSCRIPT ---------
00:00 - Hilary Russo
What would you do with one more day, if you were promised an extra 24 hours? How would you choose to spend that time, knowing that it was the only amount of time guaranteed to you? That's been on my mind a lot lately, especially with it being a leap year, a year that provides an extra day on the calendar, right? But here's the rub that day is not promised to you and it is not promised to me. What is promised is that the measure of time, that unit of time, is going to go on with or without you. So a calendar year is typically 365 days long, right? These so-called common years are the number of days it takes for the Earth to do a complete orbit around the sun, but 365 is actually the rounded number. It takes the Earth 365.242190 days, or five hours, 48 minutes and 56 seconds. That's almost six extra hours in that year, and that time has to be accounted for somehow. And that, my friends, is why we have February 29th. And I am not here to give you a science lesson, as nerdy as I might be, as interesting as it might be to you. I'm here to go back to that first question I asked you, with that extra day, if it was promised to you. What would you do to take the leap?
01:44
As I'm recording this, I'm on a deadline to get this episode done. Boy, oh boy, I could really use some extra time. It was in perfect Hilary fashion. It was the last minute idea that came to me ADHD brain was really showing up. Oh, I'll do an episode about this. And I started saying things to myself like oh, I could really use an extra day. If you're like me, I bet you catch yourself saying that too. Don't you Just give me a minute? Can I get a tea by the end of the day? Oh, the hours are flying by. I mean, the list goes on and on, with all the excuses, right. In fact, I recently asked you about this very thing, both in my Havening Happy Hour and then on social media. I asked you what would you do if you had more time? What brave leap would you take? And these were the replies that came back, and you might identify with some of them.
02:42
Ann said that she would use the time to promote her business and put herself out there more. Debbie would make a serious commitment and a plan for retirement. Rebecca would organize more activities and travel more with her kids. Matthew says work runs his life and he wants to relax more. Beverly wants more peace and tranquility in this last part of her life. Diane wants to build a website. Shelly wants time to work on her speaking and training business. Beth is leaping into making that long-term Italian visa a reality. Amy says she's got a big move coming up and that will likely shift her business.
03:17
Julie is thinking if I had an extra day, I would launch my new podcast. Now there's a lot of wood is going out there instead of leaps. Right, this is a "no woulds zone. No woods just when what a could have showed a product. So when is now the right time? And the answer is in the question. You need to trust. Stop micromanaging the universe. That's not your job. Show up, be trust and let it do the work for you. Right, surrender and release. And then there's that one leap I hear about the most.
04:03
If I had more time, if I had an extra hour or two, I would sleep more. We are a society, a nation and even a world that's really lacking sleep. And if you want to learn more about this, I actually shared all about sleep and our need for optimal sleep in episode 140 of the HIListically Speaking Podcast with sleep expert Molly Eastman. She was my guest on the show and she shared a lot of great advice on how to get optimal sleep. So be sure to download that episode after our little chat right here and before we move forward.
04:50
I love that you tune into this show week after week. I love that you're pressing play, but I really need you to do me a solid okay so others can find this show, Make sure that you're not only subscribed, but that you also hit that download button when you're listening, wherever you're tuning in from. This actually helps independent podcasters like myself be found by others just like you, and that's what we're trying to do here. We're trying to provide a space that gives people the tools to be kind to their mind and be a happy, healthy grown-up. So hit that subscribe button, tap the download, press play and off we go. Okay, so let's take that leap.
05:39
February 29th is leap day. I want to remind you that, even though it's just about six hours of extra time that leap year provides us, it's more about you getting into the mindset of using your time effectively, whether it is on leap day or any day really. So if this episode is reaching your ears on leap day. That's great. There's a reason for that. But if it's not, there's a reason for that too. Everything's a message, everything's a sign. So stop for a moment and think why now? Why today? Right, because in the silence the answers do come.
06:22
You can choose to do something you've been working on and we heard a number of different ways you can do that or start something brand new. You heard many examples of people wanting to dive into something that could really benefit their lives, and that's the beauty of life. You choose to choose. And if you're feeling a bit of self-doubt with trying something new or diving into something and leaping into something you've been thinking about but it's been on the back burner, you just need to hug it out, and I'm going to help you with that and you're going to love what I have to share. I have a special gift for you on this episode. I've never done this before. I'm sharing a link to download my Hug it Out Challenge for free Five days to add more awareness, allowance and alignment in your life, with humor, understanding and gratitude. H-U-G gotta HUG it Out. So make sure you check the link in the podcast notes of this episode to grab that PDF. It is absolutely free. It's the first time I've ever shared it. Like I said, this version, and I want you to reach out to me afterwards, after you download it, after you do the five days, let me know how it's going for you.
07:40
Choosing little changes in your every day is what is going to create the space for the life that you deserve, and I want to help you do that. And part of that extra time is to provide you with ways to get you in the flow and sometimes taking that first step is the hardest into that leap right, that first push, when you hug it out with yourself to be brave and to take the leap knowing that you will not fall, and even if you do, you will get back up right. Weebles wobble, but they don't fall down. The one place to start is always with self-care. So I want you to take a deep breath and connect to what I'm about to share with you.
08:24
Sometimes, even with a little extra time, you procrastinate, don't you? I'll do it tomorrow, I'll get it done at some point. You think that time is promised to you. It's not. Like I said before, let's be intentional and use this time well and be grateful for it, too Grateful for every moment you have. We don't need to be abusing time. We need to work with time. So here are eight ways to take a leap into better health now that you have a little extra time. Not when, but now. And we're going to start with the big one Sleep.
09:08
You need to get more sleep. Make it a priority. Imagine if you have an extra five to six hours of sleep, or even divide that up to have an extra hour for five or six days. Lack of sleep increases your risk for obesity, infections, heart disease, depression. The list goes on and on. Not to mention, you're going to be a little bit grumpy, right? So make sleep a priority. Okay, and I will join you on that. One Will not join you with your sleep, but you know what I'm saying. I'll join you on that journey. I want you to move your body.
09:51
Take this time to leap into an activity you enjoy. It doesn't have to be an hour of fitness. It can be simply taking a walk in the park, or what about dancing around your living room? When is the last time you did that? The American Heart Association recommends moderate intensity activity at least 150 minutes per week. That's about a half hour, five days a week. You have 30 minutes. Use it effectively. That's time well spent. I want you to connect. Give yourself more time for human connection. It can be coffee with a friend or even a phone call. If you're going to move, you might as well ask somebody to take a walk with you. Strong, healthy relationships promote better well-being, and human connection is essential for healthy living.
10:50
How about upping those skills? Have you thought about learning a musical instrument or a new language? But you keep thinking, ah, it's going to be too hard, it's going to take too much time. Or you want to learn CPR, but you've been putting it on hold. Or how about finishing that book? I'm raising my hand on that one. I've been putting that on the back burner, thinking when am I going to find the time? That self-doubt has got to go and trust me, I get it. But note to self and to you, time isn't promised. Do something you haven't done before that will ignite your mind and challenge you. I promise you you'll feel better.
11:35
Volunteer Acts of kindness can do a lot for your mental health, and imagine what it can do for those that you're serving. It can really be anything you want it to be Finding something that you really connect with and brings you joy. So a little story for you. When I was living in New York City, I was a volunteer for therapeutic horseback riding. Yes, there are actually horse stables in New York City. It brought me such joy. Right, it aligned with what I love children, animals being of service. So look for those moments. What do you love? Find that thing and then lend a hand. You're going to feel so much better when you do. And, yes, you have the time, or you're going to make the time right.
12:29
Eat! Mangia! That's our next one. And yes, you should enjoy foods you love. Have you ever wondered why people in areas like the Blue Zones are breaking the 100 mark, living past 100? They eat foods that are healthy, but they also eat foods they enjoy. And food is a relationship, and you might remember my conversation with Blue Zones founder Dan Buettner on Episode 66, when we talked about the nine principles of longevity. Nourishment is more than just what you physically eat. Your relationship with yourself includes everything around you. So treat yourself. Why rob yourself of life's pleasures? And if you need help creating a better relationship with food, that's something you struggle with. I got you. There's a link in the notes of this episode to support you on that journey, because we'll get you there.
13:24
I want you to pamper yourself. You don't have to hit the spa to treat yourself right, okay, one of my favorite things to do is take a bubble bath. I am a bubble bath fanatic and I love to soak and I love to sit in the tub. It can be as simple as that. It can be anything you want it to be. Actually Read a book, just rest your eyes for a little bit, listen to some great music and look, I'm a gal that also loves bumping it up a notch and hitting a spa or getting a massage or a mani-pedi. You can do that too. Maybe a run or hike or, even better, a little havening session, a little CPR for your amygdala Hampering yourself will help boost your mood, so why wouldn't you want to add that to your day?
14:12
And last but not least, gratitude. Practice gratitude every day, numerous times a day, for the little things and the big things. I can't say that enough and I know I've said this numerous times on this podcast when you start your day with two minutes of gratitude, compared to three minutes of grabbing your phone and going and doing and getting up and moving and not really giving yourself time to appreciate you and the things that you provide in this world and put out there in the world, and even the things around that bring you joy. Those two minutes, six to eight hours later, have a 27% more likelihood of bringing you a good day, a happy day, compared to those three minutes doing that other thing. That's a lot of time to put on the table, and that G in the gratitude is the H-U-G and hug it out.
15:10
And it's not just about that gratitude, like I said, towards others and experiences. It really starts with self, it begins with in. That's where I want you to start. Those small moments of appreciation are going to make big dents in happy living. So that's it. Eight ideas. Eight ideas, sunshine.
15:29
Imagine what you can do if you just take one step forward into that leap and be brave. It becomes so much easier after that, after you take that first step right. It's momentum, it's movement, it's energy. So be brave and hug it out every day. And remember to download that five day challenge, the Hug it Out Challenge. It is my gift to you to take that brave leap into a new day and a new possibility. And, of course, I want to thank you for tuning in week after week. Thank you for subscribing, for downloading so others find this show too and reminding me to keep showing up. That's what you do for me Keep showing up and keep pressing record, Hil. Yeah, I'm grateful for that every day. So, on that note, be brave and leap, because I promise you the net will appear. I love you and I believe in you. Be well.
-
When it comes to grief, it’s possible to live happily…even after. Rebecca Johnson knows her fair share of loss. Just weeks after the sudden death of her husband, she found out she had a rare and inoperable eye cancer. On this episode of the HIListically Speaking Podcast, Rebecca shares how an unexpected twist of humor and courage was the calling she needed to press “record” and heal. By sharing the message to “Widow Your Way”, she found resiliency and community with a mission to take back control and find joy in the everyday, no matter the loss.
Connect with Rebecca and tune into her podcast Love is Not Dead…Just My Husband on any podcast platform.
https://www.instagram.com/loveisnotdead_justmyhusband/
https://www.facebook.com/loveisnotdeadjustmyhusband
If you’re struggling to find your way through a loss in your life, let’s see if Havening is right for you on your healing journey. Book a complimentary clarity call and let’s HUG it Out and heal. https://hilaryrusso.as.me/hugitout
If this episode has touched, moved and inspired you, pay it forward and consider leaving a rating and review wherever you’re tuning in.
Connect with Hilary:
https://www.instagram.com/hilaryrusso
https://www.youtube.com/hilaryrusso
https://www.facebook.com/hilisticallyspeaking
https://twitter.com/HilaryRusso
https://www.tiktok.com/@hilisticallyspeaking
https://www.hilaryrusso.com/podcast
Music by Lipbone Redding https://lipbone.com/
--------- EPISODE CHAPTERS WITH SHORT KEY POINTS ------
00:00 Navigating Widowhood and Overcoming Loss
00:30 Transforming Traumas Into Triumphs
05:06 The Power of Podcasting
08:21 Gratitude, Loss, and Legacy
12:21 Embracing Widowhood and Overcoming Challenges
29:43 Empowering Widows Through Personalized Grieving
33:44 Self Care and Dating Adventures
42:45 Word Association Game in Podcast
46:29 Connect With Rebecca Johnson's Podcast
--------- EPISODE TRANSCRIPT ---------
00:00 - Rebecca Johnson (Guest)
For me, it turned out that my widowhood journey was nothing about my husband. It's not. Being a widow has absolutely nothing to do with your dead husband. It's all about you. You are the widow. It's called widowhood for a reason. It's your journey, it's about you.
00:25 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Well, one of my favorite sayings is you choose to choose. I know you've heard me say that before if you've been tuning into HIListically Speaking for some time, and it's really a reminder that we truly can change our thoughts and then change our lives in that very moment. Right, and it doesn't mean that we should not feel our feelings or our emotions, it doesn't mean we should ignore the upsets or the traumas that have happened in our lives. But by choosing to choose, we have this ability to really take our lives back and I know I've been on that place a few times myself to turn those traumas into the triumphs, one day at a time. Rebecca Johnson, you reminded me of that Now. For those of you who don't know Rebecca, you will after this.
01:14
She is the host of the podcast Love is Not Dead. Just my husband and I met you during she Podcast Live and also PodFest, and while I was the one presenting on the stage and sharing and hopefully people were learning something from what I had to share. I learned so much from you, just having a little time with you during those four days down in Florida, and I just am so elated to have you here to share your story, to share parts of who you are, to share your podcast and just really be in the room with you right now.
01:46 - Rebecca Johnson (Guest)
So thank you so much for being here, sweet Rebecca oh my God, that is so flattering and I mean thank you for having me. I was so ecstatic whenever you said you wanted me on your podcast because your energy when I met you after the award and you came up and talked to me I've honestly only met one other stranger in that same type of scenario where their energy just drew me to you.
02:22 - Hilary Russo (Host)
So yeah, I'm elated and touched by that and I think you know for me, thank you for that, for me, putting out that beacon, we tend to align with those who will mirror back at us. Right, it's being in the room, it's creating that vibe and, you know, it's like the saying like survive a tractor tribe, right, and we are in that room with a tribe of people, with a group of women who are podcasters, who are making a difference in this world. Plus, can I just add, before we go any further and into your story, this gal won, like the People's Choice Award during that she Podcast Live. You won the Sonic Bloom Award, which was like the award of awards that everybody thought, your podcast, which you've only had for a year. Again, love is not dead, just my husband. We're going to talk about that.
03:13
So, congratulations, thank you, love that and you know, for those of you who do not know Rebecca yet, like I said, you will, but she is a widow. She has survived multiple losses in a very short period of time. You've also dealt with a rare cancer that you're still you're still are working through. You've made it your mission to say that you're going to widow your way. Love that and how to move forward in life and loss without going down that rabbit hole. That is so easy to do because the brain will instantly go to that place right, it hates uncertainty. It's going to protect itself, go to the safe place and you're like kind of pulling people back. Pulling people back just from your own story. So such a beautiful lesson that we learn from our own upsets in our lives and I just love where you're going with this.
04:05 - Rebecca Johnson (Guest)
Thank you so much. It's been. Podcasting has been a big part of my healing journey and it helped me heal a lot of things that I thought I had already addressed, you know, before, and it brought up a lot of things that, in grief, that I realized that I hadn't worked through, and podcasting has been a big part of that.
04:35 - Hilary Russo (Host)
So, before we pressed record, I was telling you about my journey, about how I got into podcasting. You know, being in the broadcasting world for 30 years and then moving into this field of mental health, it was the one area I hadn't tapped into was the podcasting world. So people are always interested in how you find podcasting. So, for you, what, what was your story and what made you say I'm going to press record, I'm going to be open and vulnerable and courageous and share my journey.
05:06 - Rebecca Johnson (Guest)
So a friend of mine that I met in the same way that I met you, which just brings this full circle. So I'm really enjoying this moment. I met her on a trip in Mexico and Tulum and just her energy, her presence, everything about her I was just. I wanted to be in her space the entire time Like I felt safe, and she. We became friends. She invited me to speak at a women's wellness event that she had.
05:47
And I have done public speaking, but not on a stage like that and just usually for work stuff, because that's the things that I know, and when you know something very well, you feel comfortable talking about it. So I've only done public speaking for work events and so I did that. I think I did horribly, but everyone seemed to like it. And then we were talking afterwards and she was like I really think you should tell your story. You can help so many people. What can I do to get you on this speaking journey? And I was very nervous about that. So, instead of going through public speaking and being on stage and people actually seeing me, we talked through it and I can do the same thing, but hidden Like behind the mic. I don't necessarily have to show my face, and I don't have to show my vulnerability, and I don't have to show that I'm scared and I'm upset or sad. I can just be hidden and stay behind the mic. So that's how podcasting came about.
07:07 - Hilary Russo (Host)
But, interestingly enough, even though we're behind the mic and we might be expressing and opening our heart and soul, there is still a sense of vulnerability, because your voice is very powerful too. People get to know you, they resonate with the voice, they resonate with the person behind the microphone as well, and it's kind of like being a fly on the wall many times in this work that we do as podcasters. So for you and I briefly mentioned your cancer survivor your survivor of grief multiple times, like you had mentioned in part of your story is that you lost your husband a number of years ago and then six months later you found out you had cancer, and then you recently just told me that you also lost your brother. So can we talk about that journey a little bit?
08:01 - Rebecca Johnson (Guest)
Yeah, absolutely. It was my husband. I lost him first and it was May 2018. It was very unexpected. He had no health issues, except for some sleep apnea, but he passed away peacefully in a sleep.
08:21
So sometimes I get a little nervous about telling the story, talking about the death and talking about my husband, because so many other widowers and podcasters out there sharing their stories and telling their stories. They have really traumatic losses and even though and I used to downplay that a lot I used to say you know, I'm so grateful that my husband didn't commit suicide, I'm so grateful that my husband wasn't in a traumatic accident, but what I found that I was doing is I was using gratitude in the wrong way and I was not taken in consideration my own grief, and I was downplaying my grief to others, and which ultimately had me into the realization after a while. You know, losses, loss it doesn't matter and I don't judge anyone for the losses that they grieve, whether it's a pet or a spouse, or a parent, or a job or, you know, just a boyfriend. We're all grieving and that is all the same. And similar.
09:57 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Elaborate on that, because gratitude to hear that you're using gratitude the wrong way. What do you mean by that?
10:05 - Rebecca Johnson (Guest)
I downplay what's happening in my life because I feel like it's not as important as what's happening in someone else's life. And then, when I first learned about gratitude which I know some people might find that strange, like what do you mean you first learned about gratitude? When I first learned about gratitude, I didn't know that you should wake up and be grateful for something. I didn't know that there was this thing. Tell me three things that you're grateful for today. And when I did and I learned that the first time that a friend of mine asked me to do that, I didn't know what to say and I literally asked her can you explain gratitude to me? And she didn't make me feel stupid about it. She was very gracious. She explained gratitude and she said you know you don't have to be grateful for all these great big, amazing things. She said you can just be grateful that you're here and we're having this cup of coffee, and so that's how it started out for me.
11:17
I would just say I'm so grateful for this coffee today, or I'm so grateful that the weather is beautiful outside. So I started out with little things of gratitude and then I worked my way up to bigger things. I was using it, in a way, to excuse myself and downplay my feelings and what's going on with me, to uplift someone else or make them feel like they are more important. What they're going through is worse than what I'm going through, when in actuality it's not. And it really made me realize that, yes, we can be grateful for things during bad times, but we don't have to act like, we don't have to use gratitude in a way that makes our bad things irrelevant. I hope I explained that right.
12:21 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I love that you're touching on this, yeah, and this is such a big part of my hug it out method that I was sharing with you before and also when you, you and I met at the conference and that you know. Hug it out is about taking time to embrace yourself and a big part of that is the G and the hug it out, which is the gratitude, it's the self, it's the humor, it's the understanding and the gratitude that is really involved in the healing. And that gratitude is what are you appreciative for about yourself that you're putting out in this world? And you're right A lot of times we look at gratitude as, like this grand big thing, like you have to be grateful for the big things in life, but it's getting up in those first moments before you put your feet on the floor. In fact, there's a Harvard research review study, rebecca, and to those listening that says if you start your day with two minutes of gratitude before you pick up your phone, before you do anything, two minutes of gratitude, and it could be the small things, like I'm just happy I'm waking up in the morning, I'm glad I have a roof over my head, those small things, or the music or your cat next to you, whatever it is you have a 27% more likelihood of having a good day six to eight hours later compared to if you get up and just go grab your phone, read the paper, turn the news on for three minutes. I mean that's 27% that you're putting on the table, right. So just taking those few moments, like you're doing, and take those gratitude moments and I highly encourage those of you who are tuning in right now listening to this beautiful conversation with Rebecca Johnson who, like I mentioned, she has this wonderful podcast called Love Is Not Dead, just my Husband. We'll talk about that and so much more that's still to come in our conversation Take two minutes, just try this as a challenge, make it part of your hug it out challenge.
14:14
Start two minutes in the morning, just with the small things, and see how you feel later in the day, and it could be small. In fact, it should be small, because lessening your own gratitude because somebody else is going through something that you think is greater. It's not a comparison game, right? We all have the ability to touch, move, inspired and be touched, moved and inspired. So if it doesn't begin with in, how in the world can you show up for others, right? Yes, so that was a big lesson for you. Yes, it was, yeah. And from facing that loss and making that change and losing your husband, it wasn't that long after that that you found out that you were facing your own personal loss.
15:02 - Rebecca Johnson (Guest)
Yeah. So six weeks after he had passed away, I had found out that I was having trouble with my vision and went to the eye doctor. He thought my retina was detaching, went to a specialist and he said I think there's something more. And he sent me to an ocular oncologist at Duke Eye Center. This all happened in 2018. And that's when I found out I was diagnosed with a rare eye cancer ocular melanoma.
15:34 - Hilary Russo (Host)
You do have a terminal diagnosis.
15:37 - Rebecca Johnson (Guest)
Yes, so my cancer is incurable and, based on the statistics of the drug, the immunotherapy that I'm taking statistically the survival rate is two to three years. But, however, there are some people that are on this drug, that were on it throughout the trial and they're now at four years. So that does. That gives me some hope.
16:05 - Hilary Russo (Host)
What is your biggest concern?
16:07 - Rebecca Johnson (Guest)
My biggest concern is my son and how he is going to be able to handle the grief, because I have only had a few losses and they have absolutely been significant to me, but my son has had in such a short period of time. I mean we lost. My best friend's son was murdered, so that was his godbrother, I mean his very first friend, his best friend growing up his entire life, then my husband, which is his stepfather, who did raise him. Then after that he had a friend from school, I believe it was. He died in a car accident, then his grandfather died, then his grandmother died, then my brother, his uncle died, and then his great grandmother died.
17:22
And now he has to think about my death as well and that's a lot of loss. And I've never seen him cry. I mean I saw him cry at my husband's funeral and I just I wonder how. I worry about how he's processing his grief, because sometimes when I talk to him about it, he does open up and he wants to talk about it, but then sometimes he will just look at me and say I don't want to talk about that. So I hope that in some way this podcast will be a way for him to come back and listen to me and my advice and just kind of learn from it that grief is going to be hard and it's going to be sad, but there's so much to still be grateful for in life and I don't want him to think that when my life is over, that just life is over in general and I want him to live and not just be alive Like. I want him to actually live and have everything he's ever wanted.
18:53 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Well, I imagine having a mom like you. He's learning what it means to get back up. You know, I hope so, I think so, and I imagine there are a lot of other people that are tuning in and probably are getting that message that you might never meet. So thanks for that. Thanks for sharing that part of yourself vulnerably and with unbelievable courage and a legacy. Is something that we hope we can all share and leave behind, whether it's tomorrow or 20 years from now, or 30 years from now. You know it's just leaving our mark in a positive way, in any way that we know we're touch, moving and inspiring people. So thanks for pressing record.
19:47 - Rebecca Johnson (Guest)
Thank you for listening. Thank everyone for listening, because it wouldn't be a podcast without listeners.
19:55 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, that's true. And even with that, with that loss as well, you not only found out you had cancer, you also wound up with more loss, and that was even losing the eye itself.
20:10 - Rebecca Johnson (Guest)
Yes, and back to downplaying the same thing with my eye, and I never thought about it at the time. Losing my eye was a really big deal and the cancer and the eye and everything that was going on with me was really overshadowing my grief for my husband. So that was just kind of delayed. So now I'm in survival mode and I just have to try to take care of myself. But the loss of my eye was I don't, I never thought about it in a way that losing a body part, but you grieve that too. You know I had some phantom visions sometimes, you know.
21:06
And then also, just it was a while before I got my prosthetic and to have no eye and to wear an eye patch, or my eye doctor made me some glasses with a blackout lens which made it nicer, but it was still almost very.
21:28
It was a lot more eye catching to someone than just an eye patch, right? So I didn't leave the house a lot. I didn't like the way that I looked. I also had a small basal cell carcinoma on the forehead that the surgeon had found and it was really a small little bump that just wasn't healing on my forehead and he took that out as well and he said it ended up being a lot larger than he thought and left me with a large scar the scar. And so for a long time I just I didn't like the way that I looked and it took me years to embrace my prosthetic eye and that it was a tough time. A lot of grief there and still, sometimes now even I have difficulty with again not wanting to speak and be more behind the mic instead of on stage and people seeing me on camera. I still get nervous sometimes that people are looking at my eye.
22:43 - Hilary Russo (Host)
And what's so amazing is that you at some point took the shift. I mean, and look like those inner parts of ourselves are still there. The things we've been through are there and we should never be ignoring them. But you've turned the corner on things and even wrote it to me. You said I just I'm not falling down the rabbit hole. So where was the turning point for you that you said I'm not going this route, even though some days are more challenging than others. Like you, just mentioned.
23:15
And I have these moments where the ego steps in or the doubt steps in. Hi, welcome to being a human right. But for you, when was it like? You know what? Screw this. I'm turning this around. I want to be there for myself. I want to be there for my family. I want to be there for my family, a potential listeners who, now that you've been in this podcasting world for over a year and doing things the widows way, as you call it, like, how did all this come about?
23:45 - Rebecca Johnson (Guest)
Well it was. It was quite the roller coaster, I'll tell you. The breaking point was a summer trip in Sedona. I have a friend. I go with her and her family to Sedona every year and Sedona is absolutely gorgeous. And any the vortex and the vortex, any any picture you see of Sedona, that is exactly what it looks like. That it's. It's not made up. You can take the ugliest picture of Sedona in the Red Rocks and it's still the most beautiful place.
24:24
So here I am. I get the opportunity to go every summer with this family and experience a place that most people only dream of going. And I Wasn't having that experience. We were. We were leaving the airport restaurant one day and when you come on the back end of the Red Rocks, they're these beautiful, like they're lighter colors. They're not the deep reds, they're, they're much lighter reds and pinks and oranges and whites and they all blend together. And we were coming around and she goes isn't this the most beautiful thing you've ever seen? And I looked at her and I said I don't know what's beautiful anymore and I just busted out crying and I spent the next few days just crying, like I needed that cry.
25:31
I didn't even cry that. I didn't cry that much when my husband died. I didn't cry that much when I was diagnosed with my cancer. I feel like I had bottled everything up for so long and it was finally coming out and I felt like I was living a lie, like every smile was forced, every laugh was fake, what people saw on the outside was not how I felt. And when I left Sedona I knew that something had to change. So I had to get some discipline. I had to force myself and I love Mel Robbins. Shout out to Mel Robbins Five, four, three, two, one.
26:19
And you know I take her advice, advice like as a widow and a lot of people like she is very you got to make yourself, do it. No one's coming to save you. Get off your ass and just do it. And I took that advice not just as a person but as a widow and I'm like you know what, rebecca? No one's coming to save you. No one's coming to save you. You're. You're here, you're grieving and you're sad and you're depressed and you're lonely and you're living this widow saga. No one's coming to save you. No one cares that you're a widow anymore. You're the only one that cares. You're the only one hanging on to this and I just use that and I started doing things more for myself. I went back to school. I started getting out more. I said I'm going to start dating.
27:29
I did that horribly, but but that was what you did it, girl, I did it, but you did it, but that was, that was the breaking point and I really started to embrace living, I started to travel, I started to do more things and then my brother died and then I felt like it was just all coming, like I felt myself being pulled back into that world of grief and then I then I knew I had to, I had to dig myself back out of it. It's like if you did it before, you can do it again.
28:17 - Hilary Russo (Host)
That's really it, right there. Like we sometimes see the the traumas that we go through, as being the only trauma and sometimes we'll connect it to something from the past, that encoding Right and we realize that we've been through this Like my mom. Do you remember the Weebel wobbles? Weebel's wobbles? They don't fall down. Yes, yes, so I have, like I have a bunch of them on my, my desk, because it's a reminder that we fall but we get back up. Right, we wobble but we get back up.
28:48
We weebel, what we don't fall down and that's what life's about is the resiliency Right, and you but. But it takes us a moment to step back and get out of our own shit, to realize it Like we have to feel, we have to emote, we have to go through those, those moments, like I mentioned earlier. But it is really taking that deep breath and realizing how long do I want to stay in this flip in place, right Before I make this, before I realize I can get back up and I can heal while I'm getting up, right, yeah, so, with all that happening and now many losses, just physically, two people, but then your own losses and your own life and your health.
29:33
What is your mission now with? Love is not dead, just my husband, the widow's way. Where are you looking to go with this?
29:43 - Rebecca Johnson (Guest)
You know, it wasn't until after the cancer had metastasized that I really thought about that. I mean, I was just having fun with the podcast, right, and you know the whole widow your way thing. With that, I feel like just the statement itself is more empowering for a widow than just there's no right or wrong way to grieve, right. I feel like widows need something that's specific their own. You know, just like Nike, just do it. You know widows widow your way. Like how I saw you were in the shirt, yeah.
30:25 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I saw you were in the shirt and I was. I was pulled into it because it just it didn't have to be a slogan of a podcast, didn't have to be anything. It's just like I'm not even. I'm not in that position and I felt a pull to it. Maybe it's just being a woman and understanding losses in different ways, but I'm like we do widow other things, other than people. Yes, right, and so I pulled. I was pulled into that statement like ah, yeah, okay, and I wasn't even sure what it meant to me in that moment, but I connected to it, rebecca. So it's powerful, I have.
31:03 - Rebecca Johnson (Guest)
It's powerful, I hope so, um, you know, for me, I have never read a grief book. Well, actually, I've read one grief book, finding Meaning, by David Kessler, Other than that, and I just read that last year. But for me, I never read it. But for me, I never did a grief workshop, I never did a widow group, I didn't reach out to any other widows. I, I, I did it my way and it turned out okay. It really did turn out okay, and so that has been the focus of my podcast Widow your Way, um, trying to break through stereotypes and what people really think of widows. And for me it turned out that my widowhood journey was nothing about my husband. It's not. Being a widow has absolutely nothing to do with your dead husband. It's all about you. You are the widow. It's called widowhood for a reason. It's your journey, it's about you.
32:22 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, yeah. So I want to just reiterate to folks if you're not tuning into Love is Not Dead, just my Husband with Rebecca Johnson, or just connect with her, we're going to put all your information, rebecca, in the list of notes. I want people to be able to tune in and really to find their own connection to you, because I think you're just an incredible human being and you know, when I was, when I gave you the podcast notes to fill out, you're like I don't have a freebie. I'm like, oh girl, yes, you do. Your podcast is the freebie and it doesn't always have to be the lead magnet or the download. And I know we get into this world of marketing in this, but really aren't we just people just having conversations too? And I think you're so authentic with that and I love that about you and I'm so glad we're able to have this conversation. So if this conversation touch, moves and inspires you tuning in right now, listening to HIListically Speaking speaking episode with Rebecca Johnson, you know, let us know. Share it in the ratings and reviews.
33:25
Wherever you are tuning into this podcast, whether you're watching on YouTube or you're listening on any of the platforms we're on, which is basically them all Let us know, like let Rebecca know, and give her a shout out. Go check her out, you know. Subscribe to her podcast as well. Let's amplify the voices, let's be there for each other. That's really what this is. This, really what this podcast is about is holding space for those and, like I say a million times and my listeners know, my audience knows, every person I have on this podcast is like a masterclass. I'm learning from you just as much as you might be walking away and learning something from me, so thank you for that.
34:00 - Rebecca Johnson (Guest)
Oh, absolutely.
34:02 - Hilary Russo (Host)
So appreciative of you. Where I want to go next, let's? I want to have a little fun because you know, like I said, part of the healing involves humor and we were having some conversations before pressing record where we were talking about the dating getting out there in the world, the things we really need to do also for ourselves, the self love. And February yes, it's known as Love Month usually focuses around Valentine's Day, but I really want to just nail it in that it's really about the self love and you connect with that as well the things you're doing for yourself, the things that you are doing to pick yourself back up when the weeble wobbles. And what does self care mean to Rebecca? Like, how are you holding space for yourself, rebecca?
34:51 - Rebecca Johnson (Guest)
You know, honestly, right now I'm not holding any kind of space for myself other than with this cancer, other than when I feel hungry, I'm eating whatever I want, and I know a lot of people are very concerned about my health and what I'm putting into my body right now. But for me, right now, that is my self love. When I find myself hungry, I'm eating what I want and I'm in joy in it and I'm sleeping. When I'm tired, I. If I'm at work and I feel that I'm doing too much, before I used to push through and I wouldn't take a break, and so now I'm not doing that anymore. If I'm tired, I take a nap. If I want to feel like I need some kind of recharge, I'll walk outside and stand in the sun for five minutes. So those I mean wow, I said that I wasn't doing any self care, and the more that I think about it. Yeah, I am doing a little self care, but it's nothing great. Yeah, so I you know. But that goes back to almost to the gratitude.
36:05 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Like you think I'm not really in a state of gratitude, and then you realize the smallest things, like I just had a delicious sandwich and it was amazing, right, and I'm so grateful that I had it. Like we tend to put so much pressure on things being big and grander to be able to have purpose and meaning our lives, and it's really the small things that make the difference, right. So I ask you if you do things for self care? At first you said nothing and you just listed a bunch of things I did. I love it, yeah. What is your favorite thing that you that you like to? Uh, nashon.
36:39 - Rebecca Johnson (Guest)
Um what was your.
36:41 - Hilary Russo (Host)
What's the food that you think that is not good to have, so good to have.
36:44 - Rebecca Johnson (Guest)
So right now nothing tastes good, like everything sounds like it might taste good, and then I eat it and it's like uh no, now it just tastes gross, I don't want it. Um, right now my thing is potatoes Anything with potatoes, yeah. Yeah, nothing exciting, but just I'm eating potatoes. All right, it's a comfort food.
37:15 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah Right, and I think we get into this habit and I'm an integrative nutrition, holistic health coach and I've studied like 135, 40 dietary theories that are out there and I think it just comes down to like things in moderation. Like if we deny ourselves things that bring us joy, then we are most likely going to sabotage anyway because we are denying ourselves the things that bring us joy, but it's being witnessed to it. So I would say you can even pair that potato with a gratitude moment. I love this potato.
37:49 - Rebecca Johnson (Guest)
There you go, something to be great for.
37:51 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Right, yeah, so as someone who is doing some self care, you're getting out there in the world. You said, dating hasn't been going so well. Are you? Um, are you embracing it again? Are you trying it again? Cause you've shared some stuff where it's been pretty funny about your, your dating adventures. You've you've shared some things about your dating adventures that were kind of humorous.
38:14 - Rebecca Johnson (Guest)
Yeah. So with Valentine's Day coming up, I was, you know, everyone's talking about Valentine's Day. Some of the other widows are, you know, talking about dating and stuff, and I'm like, do I want to do a Valentine's Day episode? Do I want to take advantage of that? And then, um, so I decided that I would do a Valentine's Day episode. Um, I was debating about it and then this song popped into my head Tina Turner, what's love got to do with it?
38:51
And there's a very funny story I mean I think it's funny, a very funny story that I'm going to share on my next episode, but a very funny story about me and my husband and why Tina Turner is so relevant. And then I it's going to be a two part episode. So I share two relationship stories a little more in detail than what I have in the past, and the second one is going to be there's a little twist to it. It's not what you think it's going to be. So now you'll have to tune into that one too. But is this is the second one airing a week later? Yes, I mean it's it's coming after Valentine's Day Perfect Cause.
39:40 - Hilary Russo (Host)
As you know, we're recording this right before Valentine's Day, so you can go back and listen to these episodes. Because that's really where I want to go here is that Valentine's Day is not just one day. Love month is not just February. Every day should be a chance to say I love myself and I have the ability to love others, right? So it doesn't matter when this is dropping. We are dropping this, as you know, in February. However, go back and listen, you know, as a reminder that it doesn't have to be Valentine's Day.
40:11 - Rebecca Johnson (Guest)
I felt like it was going to be pretty good. And then I saw Miley Cyrus win her Grammy. I didn't watch the Grammys, but I saw an epa clip where she was singing her song Flowers and yeah. And then she's like I want a Grammy, yes. But did you notice her outfit and her hair and her mannerism? She was impersonating Tina Turner.
40:39 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Oh, you know what? I didn't even catch that.
40:41 - Rebecca Johnson (Guest)
Which solidifies that my two podcast episodes were supposed to be told.
40:51 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Wait a minute. Did that? Was that? Did that come out that she was Well, or is that just your interpretation? I didn't read that. I did so you felt that. Watch her the way she was moving.
41:05 - Rebecca Johnson (Guest)
those are Tina Turner's moves Her dress that she was wearing with the fringe, that's Tina Turner. Her hair, oh my gosh Big. That is Tina Turner. She was Rebecca, I didn't even get that. And what better person to inspire you? And and in that song and on that stage, I mean that is Tina Turner. And then yeah, yeah.
41:34 - Hilary Russo (Host)
I did not get that until I'm sitting here listening to you and rewinding, because I didn't watch the Grammys either. But I did catch that clip because in my mind I thought that was such an empowering moment for her and so authentic. Like she's singing her song and then she just breaks and goes. I finally want a Grammy. And like I felt that for her, like I felt it was like a Susan Lucci moment where she goes up for the Emmys like 19 times until she won. It was that moment where she's like I've worked so hard writing this music and finally I'm being acknowledged. Like I felt, like it was so authentic. But now add on top of that, this is a girl, a young woman that is paying tribute to somebody who has inspired her and wow, that that levels that moment up. Now I didn't even think that. Thank you for bringing an awareness to that.
42:24 - Rebecca Johnson (Guest)
Yeah.
42:25 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Anybody out there listening. If you feel that way, too, would love to know. I think that's pretty incredible, but so it does. It makes it will make your podcast make a lot more sense. And just isn't it funny how the things just align. Yes, in that way. Yes, there's just this unbelievable alignment. Awesome, love that. Okay, my dear. So I just want to reiterate to those who are listening and tuning in, wherever you're tuning in, rebecca Johnson, please give her podcast I know it's not dead, just my husband a listen, tune in. I know there's numerous ways to get in touch with you and you share that. We're going to put that in the podcast notes, but I want to play a little game with you. Ooh, got a moment.
43:02
Yes, I love a good game, so I do this at the end of every podcast and sometimes I wonder if I should do it at the beginning, because it really kind of breaks people up. It's pretty funny, but I do this like word association game, where I pick words from the conversation we're having and I want you to come back with the first word that comes to mind. It's basically seeing how Rebecca's brain is working.
43:25 - Rebecca Johnson (Guest)
Wow, what if it's so do? Do I have a default word if I, if I can't come up with a word, Like a safety word.
43:32 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Oh, yeah, I think I need that's a whole different kind of podcast. That's a safe word. Okay, that's Rebecca a couple of years into dating, and then we can get into that.
43:46 - Rebecca Johnson (Guest)
Oh my goodness, it's just safe word, yeah.
43:49 - Hilary Russo (Host)
No, this is just me throwing out a word, or maybe two, depending, okay, and I just want you to come back Like, just don't think too hard about it. This is Rebecca's brain, sharing the word that she associates with the word I throw out at you. Okay, just take a deep breath, maybe do a little havening, because you learned how to do that, and the first word I'm going to throw out is vision Board Word Grief Loss Podcast Me, yeah, girl Widow.
44:32 - Rebecca Johnson (Guest)
Your way.
44:34 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Nice Well played on the branding Cancer Live Gratitude.
44:47 - Rebecca Johnson (Guest)
Always.
44:50 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Love.
44:51 - Rebecca Johnson (Guest)
Is not dead.
44:54 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, it's not. It never is. Sometimes it goes dormant for a moment, but it's still there, right? Yeah, we just have to rediscover ourselves. Really is what it's all about. That's a good takeaway. I appreciate that I've learned a lot from you and I'm really, really elated to share this space with you. It's really been a good conversation and I hope to have more, because you open my eyes to some things you know. And widowing your way doesn't necessarily mean you've lost a partner or a spouse. There are many levels of grief and loss, right, and being able to see that nobody's going to save you. We really are on this. We're walking each other home, as I like to say, but truly the journey is ours.
45:46 - Rebecca Johnson (Guest)
Yes.
45:47 - Hilary Russo (Host)
You know, yeah, so if you were to have some final words with HILlistically Speaking audience, what would it be?
45:58 - Rebecca Johnson (Guest)
Embrace grief and loss, not grief after loss, and just know that it's possible to live happily even after.
46:15 - Hilary Russo (Host)
Yeah, happily, even after that's great Thanks for that. Thank you, okay, sunshine, this is going to be the easiest decision you ever have to make. Rebecca Johnson opened up so vulnerably, so beautifully, so courageously during this conversation that I want you to give her some love. Check out her podcast Love is Not Dead Just my Husband. And then take it one step further. Connect with her on social media, find out more about the widow's way and just have a conversation with her. She's so open and so friendly and so loving that I think you're going to really vibe with her.
46:53
I put all the links to connect with Rebecca and her podcast in the listen notes of this episode. Listen if you enjoyed this. If this episode touched, moved and inspired you in any way, let us know here at HIListically Speaking, you know, drop a rating and a review on any podcast platform, wherever you're tuning in, or even on YouTube, and just let us know how we're doing, because I read everything and I love to hear from you and you will hear from me. And if you are having a struggle in the area of grief, if you are struggling in any area that is really a trauma in your life, don't forget that there is support, there are tools, there are people that are there to help you through, and if you want to learn more about how havening can be part of that, drop me a line. I put a link in the podcast notes how you can connect with me to learn how to hug it out and live with humor and understanding and gratitude in your every day.
47:46
HIListically Speaking is edited by Two Market Media, with music by Lipone Redding, and listened to by you. So thank you for that. Every day, and remember, you have the ability to choose to choose to change your thoughts, to change your day and to start every day as a day one, because I believe in you, I love you and I will see you next week.
-
When the bond between a mother and daughter fractures, the emotional fallout can resonate through every aspect of life. Hilary Russo guides this raw and enlightening conversation with celebrated family therapist Khara Croswaite Brindle, author of "Understanding Ruptured Mother-Daughter Relationships,” and peels back the layers of this deeply personal issue.
During this intimate conversation, Hilary and Khara unravel the tangled reasons behind daughters distancing themselves from their mothers, from toxic dynamics to ancestral traumas. Addressing the societal stigmas that often accompany the decision to step back, we shed light on the importance of setting boundaries for emotional health, and how the decision to create distance is rarely taken lightly, but often a necessary step in preserving one's well-being.
Touched, moved, or inspired by this conversation? Consider sharing it with someone you know and leave a rating/review wherever you are tuning in.
Connect with Khara and grab a copy of her books:
https://www.estrangementenergycycle.com/
https://www.facebook.com/croswaitecounselingpllc
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kharacroswaite/
https://www.instagram.com/kharacroswaite/
Connect with Hilary:
https://www.instagram.com/hilaryrusso
https://www.youtube.com/hilaryrusso
https://www.facebook.com/hilisticallyspeaking
https://twitter.com/HilaryRusso
https://www.tiktok.com/@hilisticallyspeaking
https://www.hilaryrusso.com/podcast
Music by Lipbone Redding https://lipbone.com/
--------- EPISODE CHAPTERS WITH SHORT KEY POINTS ---------
(0:00:00) - The Rise of Mother-Daughter Estrangement
Therapy, abuse, trauma, and generational trauma influence the rising trend of estrangement in mother-daughter relationships.
(0:04:32) - Understanding and Navigating Family Estrangement
Family estrangement's multigenerational impact, forms of distance, setting boundaries, therapy for affected family members, maintaining emotional well-being.
(0:13:54) - Understanding the Estrangement Energy Cycle
The emotional journey of adult daughters dealing with ruptured mother-daughter relationships and how educators can support children experiencing family estrangement.
(0:22:16) - Healing Estranged Mother-Daughter Relationships
Nature's complexities of mother-daughter estrangement, generational trauma, and attachment styles, and the value of therapy and coaching for healing.
(0:28:09) - Understanding Mother-Daughter Estrangement and Healing
Healing and reconciliation between estranged mothers and daughters, with emphasis on individual journeys and the importance of mutual effort.
(0:36:16) - Understanding and Healing Mother-Daughter Estrangement
Healing estranged mother-daughter relationships, prioritizing mental health, and using self-regulation tools like Havening for self-empowerment.
--------- EPISODE TRANSCRIPT ---------
0:00:00 - Khara Croswaite Brindle
I think a lot of people are now talking about it. I think it's always been happening, but maybe we're seeing an uptick because people have are going to therapy, they have language for it. Now they're looking at this from the lens of abuse and trauma and that's justifying some of the rupture, the distance between parents and their children.
0:00:18 - Hilary Russo
One in 12. One in 12 people my friends are estranged from a family member and it's a choice that can be very challenging for many. But when you do the inner work, when you create the space for healthier relationships and for a better understanding of self, it really can pave the way for a new you. And when it comes to mother and daughter estrangement especially where there's been possibly repeated trauma, discomfort, pain, misunderstanding even a daughter's choice to cut her ties from her mother can come with so much emotion and still much pain in the healing process.
Khara Crosswaight Brindle is a licensed therapist who wrote the book about this very thing understanding ruptured mother-daughter relationships, guiding the adult daughter's healing journey through the estrangement energy cycle. And I have to say, Khara, this is such an important topic because of the clients that I see. There's so much parental child estrangement that I've been seeing more so than probably years ago. I feel like people are coming into their own and I'm really happy you're here to talk about this topic because it is a important one and I know you specifically focus on the mother-daughter in this book specifically, but this is happening with many relationships. So thank you for being here, thank you for sharing your voice and your wisdom, thank you, Hilary.
0:01:48 - Khara Croswaite Brindle
Yeah, I'm excited to talk about it. It's on the rise, so let's talk about it.
0:01:53 - Hilary Russo
So let us talk about that when we say it's on the rise and we hear numbers like one in 12, one in 12 seems like a pretty big number when you think about in the grand scheme of things, that that could potentially be a real issue. I don't know. When I growing up, you just respected your parents. You took whatever came at you. In a way, you didn't talk back, and I think we're seeing more people now using words like narcissism, parental narcissism it's not just within intimate relationship and gaslighting and manipulation and I'm curious, these terms tend to be buzzwords now too, right? So how do we define the difference between that and really know that? What's my responsibility in all this, and am I in a position where I'm in a toxic relationship that does need severed ties?
0:02:52 - Khara Croswaite Brindle
Yeah, I mean I think this is one of the chapters of the book we go through a bunch of assumptions of estrangement and one of them is that therapists are pushing for clients to stop talking to their parents, especially because we have a generation, or now two generations, that are coming into therapy doing their own work and now have a language for what happened right of trauma, abuse, neglect, something happening in that family relationship that led to that rupture.
And although it's assumptions because you and I as mental health professionals can say like we're not here to champion estrangement, like we're here to say what's best for the client and like helping them discover for themselves what's best I tackled that assumption as well as like this toxic word and it's funny you named it, you said the word toxic, so I think people are overusing that word, but when it comes to estrangement, maybe it's just now a simple, a simplification for what's happened, like I don't want to go into detail about how painful this estrangement was for my parent, but if I say the word toxic, people will respect that and just look it up from like boundaries, and so I think a lot of people are now talking about it. I think it's always been happening, but maybe we're seeing an uptick because people have are going to therapy, they have language for it. Now they're looking at this from the lens of abuse and trauma and that's justifying some of the rupture, the distance between parents and their children.
0:04:09 - Hilary Russo
And there's some other words that we hear a lot as of late, and it's ancestral trauma, generational trauma and going back to the root of your ancestry, and how do you avoid bringing that into this present generation and generations going forward? I've been hearing that a lot and that's something I think I've even battled. I'm like I don't want to bring that into the next generation.
0:04:35 - Khara Croswaite Brindle
How do?
0:04:35 - Hilary Russo
I stop the trauma right here.
0:04:38 - Khara Croswaite Brindle
Absolutely. I'm like, yeah, so in my personal experience, I'm married into a family that has four generations of estrangement and what I noticed because I'm a mental health professional I can see it. I'm not in it. I'm kind of behind it looking at what's going on and it's like now it's been modeled. Now it's modeled that if I have a significant conflict with you I can just cut ties. That's what's been said, is fine, is acceptable in this family, even though there's lots of hardship and lots of grief and loss behind the scenes.
They're modeling for the youngest generation, which I'm now a parent of a two-year-old. So I'm very thoughtful to this. I'm like what are we telling that youngest generation about? If it's a conflict that doesn't feel solvable, resolvable, do we just walk away? Do we just say I'm done talking to you, stay out of my life, and so it's not that simple. But I think a lot of people on the outside are just seeing estrangement as this dynamic of I'm mad at you, so I'm not going to talk to you, when this look goes so much deeper as to what's truly going on, from that cellular trauma level to generations, to modeling, to here's neglect and abuse that was happening for that person.
0:05:41 - Hilary Russo
Yeah, and the other thing about that is that there's the fine line where, as mental health professionals, our dedication and our loyalty is really to the client or the patient right, but not to tell them what to do, but help them find what works best for them right. It's never telling them, it's never healing them. It's giving them the tools to come to those decisions themselves right.
Exactly. But the part of that is some people don't want that person in other lives, and I've seen that a lot. It's like finding that healthy boundary with that person, whereas is there a level of estrangement where it's not they're totally out of your life, but you have healthy boundaries so that they're still in your life. You love this person. It's obviously a tie, but how do you do so in a way that, where it's not impacting your emotional well-being and you can still have someone of a healthy relationship, even at a distance?
0:06:40 - Khara Croswaite Brindle
Yeah, and so you're kind of speaking to. We talk about in the book. We talk about physical estrangement versus emotional estrangement. So physical estrangement is what people's heads go to, their minds go to we're not speaking, I've moved away, you don't know anything about my life, we're never seeing each other at holidays or never at family gatherings. It's kind of like a hard stop, like very dramatic sense of there's grief and loss. This feels like a death when we stop talking to that person. Then there's this emotional estrangement, which is that slow burn of like I'm going to start kind of distancing myself, like when I restrict how long I'm talking to you on the phone, how often I call you, how long I stay at that family event. So it creates some of those boundaries you're naming Hillary with. Like I want some distance, but I'm still connected to them, I'm still talking to them. I'm just creating some boundaries around what that looks like.
0:07:28 - Hilary Russo
And then you have the other side of it, like other family members who witness that, and I've been in a position where I've had family members who have been estranged or still are, and you so want everybody to get along, you so want to step in and be like, oh gosh, what can I do to help? Even though it's not your place, how do you deal with being the family member who's on the outside looking in and they're the one that wants the piece within everyone? Because I'm sure someone can benefit from this book and pick it up and read it, because maybe there is an estrangement between family members that they love both both of those people.
0:08:07 - Khara Croswaite Brindle
Oh, yeah, yeah. And so we have a section in the book that talks about this ripple effect on families and specifically for siblings. This was inspired by my spouse, who's talking to all four of those generations and the family, but none of them are talking, so he's very much the person saying what you've just said. I want everyone to get along, I want to see all of you, I want us in a room together. I miss us as a family, right? So that's very heartfelt For those siblings or loved ones.
Some of the strategies are know that this is your agenda, this is your desire, this is your wish, your want of the family. Do you go to your own therapy to process the sadness that you have that your family has been fractured in this way? Is it about not taking sides, not bad mouthing one loved one to the other as you're like oh, I'm siding with mom or I'm siding with sister and this mother daughter example of estrangement. But some other tips of like, it's not up to you to fix it, it's not up for you to convince them to reconcile. Actually, it'll backfire if you do.
If you're like just get along, just talk to each other. That creates more damage. But, more importantly, there's this alliance that we have to have, or we feel like we have to have, and I have to choose mom or sister. I cannot be connected to both. And that is where I think doing their own individual therapy is important, because they're feeling caught between and they love both people and they want both people in their lives, but they feel like they can't speak about that person. I can't mention mom to sister and I can't mention sister to mom, and it's just a huge mental energy for them to navigate estrangement this way.
0:09:36 - Hilary Russo
Yeah, and it can cause a lot of draining of that energy too. You know you don't want to be put in the middle. You have your own relationship that you need to nurture. You might have your own emotional boundaries or healthy boundaries that you need to set with that person as well, or maybe it's even more than one person, because even like you mentioned your husband having an estrangement from a number of people or has a family that has multiple levels of estrangement. You know being able to support yourself is the most important thing. But you know you also mentioned that there is the trickle down and the ripple effect, especially when it comes to children. Like how do you explain that to a child? Like where's grandma, where's grandpa? Why don't we see them? But we see the other grandparents all the time. We're seeing more of that too.
0:10:21 - Khara Croswaite Brindle
Oh yeah, and children are curious Like that's naturally, developmentally appropriate of like where's my grandparent? Here's a social representation of families. My family doesn't look like this. Why is that? So I took this first book that we're talking about and I actually made a children's book in the last two weeks. I actually launched last week. Oh, that's great.
0:10:41 - Hilary Russo
Can we get the name of that?
0:10:42 - Khara Croswaite Brindle
Yeah, it's called Petty Mickey's Family Tree, talking to kids about a strange one.
And so it's a cute little elementary age child book. That's the audience, it's elementary age children and their parents, and it looks at her coming home saying, hey, I have this assignment, this family tree I'm supposed to put together. I'm having some anxiety, I'm having some worry that my tree looks different than the other kids at school and it really just creates modeling of what it looks like for a family member this case of parent to talk to their child and say, like, what's age appropriate? How do I regulate myself to tell my kid just enough information for them to understand what's going on, without parentifying them, without stressing them out?
So I actually have like five tips in the back of that book for parents of like I want you to breathe, I want you to be curious about what the question they have. You know, these young children of like four or five year olds are like hey, do they look like me? That might be their only question, versus a word panicking that I have to explain. Hey, this is what my parent did for me to not talk to them. So just talking about what's developmentally appropriate and discussing this arrangement because kids do have questions and this book, hopefully, is going to help that conversation.
0:11:50 - Hilary Russo
I love that you mentioned that. I love that you're bringing up like social, emotional learning tools that children can implement. And that's something that I've been trying to work with the kids, more especially with the havening techniques, which gives them a way to self-regulate for self-love, self-care and just find that calm and the chaos you know when the brain is just not really understanding what's going on, especially at that younger age. Right, but giving them ways to self-regulate and you mentioned that words regulate what other things can they do? You mentioned breathing.
0:12:25 - Khara Croswaite Brindle
Yeah, I think even just like talking about this ahead of time. So like when parents pick up this book or hear this podcast, can they be like? What would I say if my kid asked why I don't talk to grandma or to uncle or to whoever it is in the family? So just that like preparation of here's what I would say, so it doesn't feel like it's coming from emotion, it's coming from like this grounded. I know what I want to say to my kid and I'm not going to show them that this hurts. I'm going to be regulated so I don't look sad or angry or upset, because kids can feel that right, so we can feel our own stuff, show up and so if we can take a book or think about this ahead of time, then we can feel more prepared to show up neutrally with our kids and then be really like slow and saying what do you really want to know?
You know elementary age kids might have one simple question, versus a teenager might be like tell me more, like I want to know what really happened with grandma. So some of those tips are about just like being present for the question. Regulate yourself to breathe, grounding, giving them eye contact, validating their emotions, which is important for kids of like you might feel confused by what I just shared. What other questions do you have? That's another tip of encouraging future questions. They might just be like this was enough for now, but I might have a question for you as my parent six months from now about grandma. So it's not usually a one and done conversation and their parents can look at this. These characters go through this little plot line of the children's book or just look at the back of the book for those five tips. I'm hoping they'll feel more prepared.
0:13:54 - Hilary Russo
And this can also be for teachers as well, because something that I was talking with a mutual trauma informed practitioner and also an educator who works with kids about the castle system, and then you know what? What can we do to understand a child's body language and their behavior? That might be changing the in the in the classroom. Educators, teachers, also need to be familiar with this. So I'm sure this book, the child book especially, can be very helpful for teachers as well to understand what's going on at home with with the little ones you know.
0:14:29 - Khara Croswaite Brindle
Absolutely, and obviously the child therapists are just like eating it up. They want this in our library of, like, let's do some bibliotherapy, let's talk about this. Is this, is this your family? Like talking to me about your family tree? So I just I'm really hopeful that it's going to fill this gap, because I didn't see any literature out there for kids, and parents are desperate to say how do I not harm them further? How do I not put my stuff on them? How do I keep myself in check while answering their question, and I think this book is a part of that.
0:14:56 - Hilary Russo
So let's mention the two books that you have that we're talking about. The first one is Understanding Ruptured Mother-Daughter Relationships Guiding the Adult Daughter's Healing Journey through the Estrangement Energy Cycle. I want to talk about that real quick. And then the other book mentioned the title again so we can let folks know.
0:15:12 - Khara Croswaite Brindle
Yeah, it's called Petty McGee's Family Tree. Talking to Kids about Family Estrangement.
0:15:17 - Hilary Russo
Wonderful. We're going to put links to both of those in the list of notes of this podcast episode and if you are touched, moved and inspired by this in any way, if you are enjoying this conversation um HIListically Speaking with Khara Croswaite Brindle, please let us know, drop us a line, let us know how we can support you more on this journey. But let us get into the nitty-gritty about the Estrangement Energy Cycle. What does that mean? Can you share?
0:15:41 - Khara Croswaite Brindle
that, yeah. So the key word here is energy. Like we've already alluded to, just the thought of estranging from a family member is emotional. It takes energy. A lot of these women are coming into therapy trying to figure out what their next move is, and so the energy word is really speaking to.
This might be pre-contemplative, this might be I'm preparing for the worst, and so I'm going through this cycle in my mind, or it could be I'm literally going through these eight stages as I figure out what's happening with mom. Um, so, although the eight stages don't have any particular order, I tend to start talking about it from this awareness of what if I have a realization, as an adult daughter, that this was abusive? Once I have that realization, I can't unsee it right as a woman, and so does that then catapult me into stage two, which is about questioning what do I want to do with this information? Do I want to talk to mom about it? Do I want to broach this with her, bring it up? Do I want to just focus on the relationship now or our future relationship? So if they decide to talk to mom, which a lot of these women feel compelled to do from a place of, I want acknowledgement, I want an apology, I want compassion, I want healing. They might say let's go to mom and talk about it. Worst case scenario depending on how mom responds to this conversation, there could be immense healing that happens of you're right, I made mistakes, I'm so sorry that happened to you, I want to do better, I love you. That'll be the best scenario for going to mom saying, hey, I have this awareness now. Worst case scenario mom gets defensive, mom gets angry, mom starts name calling, mom starts pointing fingers, which unfortunately, a lot of these women then came into my therapy practice devastated because they're like, on top of realizing that this was abusive or traumatic, my parent just minimized my experience and so that leads to that relationship rupture right when it's like I don't know if I can do this with mom anymore.
If they feel like they want to break that pattern, they might consider a strange man, whether it's physical or emotional strange man. Now I'm like I can't talk to mom. I have to have some control over what's happening in my life, and so it might mean mom's not in it Standably. If we choose a strange one, we go into a grief and loss response. The literature, the research says that it feels like a death because it I mean it has that same emotional pull of like I'm not talking to you, it's like you're not part of my life. Might as well feel like you're dead to me. So for a lot of those women they're coming into therapy at that stage too of like this is devastating, I'm depressed and anxious, I'm in grief. Breathe it From there.
They have to start kind of questioning what their identity is Like. What is my self worth without mom? So now is it I have different interests when mom's not weighing in on what I want to do with my life. If mom was maybe overbearing, do I feel like I'm just figuring it out? Who am I without her? What kind of woman am I? What kind of mother am I if I'm a mother, if that's applicable.
And then they go into the deeper work, which is, as a therapist, my favorite, because now they're looking at boundaries, other relationships, attachment styles, what's it look like with romantic partners Now that they have this awareness of what's going on with mom? And then, last but not least, is redefining their self worth. So who am I? But, more importantly, where am I headed from here If mom's not a part of my life? Or not reconciling. How do I navigate milestones, holidays, family events you know it's not a joyful thing for these women. It's usually still quite painful, different points of their life where mom should be present and isn't right. So think of like getting married, having a child. Mom is usually a part of that if it's a healthy relationship. So at no point in this cycle is there like hearts and flowers happening for this woman. But maybe she's starting to feel more empowered by the end of I know where I am, I know where I'm headed, even if it's not with mom in my life. So those are kind of the quick overview of those eight stages in the book.
0:19:31 - Hilary Russo
It's beautiful. It's beautiful to be able to find yourself in that journey. I mean, you're going to go through, like you said, the stages of grief, but you also are becoming more empowered that for a long time, that daughter could be feeling that everything's her fault you know, or she makes an attempt to reach out and she gets, like you said, she gets very disappointed. She gets disappointment from a defensive parent or mother in this case, right.
And then how do you go from there, like you become vulnerable and take that courageous step to reach out? But also, what's responsibility has the daughter had in all this? You know this is not just to put blame on the mother right, it's also what was my responsibility in this. But if a daughter has reached out and has made an attempt and says I'm willing to see the other side, and then all you get back is the upset from the mother, her side not seeing anything, like you said, where do you go from there?
0:20:35 - Khara Croswaite Brindle
Yeah, and I mean a lot of these women. What I appreciated about what I'm hearing from people who've read it so far is I put in nine women's stories and we like continue to kind of see their journey on all eight stages. All nine of these women, some of them reconcile, some of them have permanent estrangement from significant abuse and neglect. But I tried to capture, like here are all different types of women that I've worked with over the years that now embody these stages and how emotional each of them are. And so I call out the people pleasing, I call out the perfectionists, I call out the did I do enough?
Because of course the adult daughter is thinking that at some stage she is asking herself did I do enough? Did I fight enough for this relationship with mom? Should I have done better? Is there a way I could have won her over? Do I deserve unconditional love? Right, I'm like a real deep into the like emotion of it. So I try to name all of that as, like for these women. There's so much to unpack there. It's not just I got to one stage, it's what am I thinking and feeling at each of those stages? And those stories embody that.
0:21:37 - Hilary Russo
And then you have to think about leader in life, when the mother might need to have a caregiver. Like, how do you abandon that parent who has hurt you in some way? Do you come back full circle and say this person's in the last part of their lives? But I also need to have these healthy boundaries so that I'm not impacted in a negative way while I'm trying to be supportive and of service to this person who is needing support. You know I hear that a lot as well.
0:22:08 - Khara Croswaite Brindle
Oh, yeah, there's this pressure to reconcile. You know, there's the societal message of you're going to regret this. What if they die suddenly? Right? So I have a whole section in the book of, like community members, what we can say and what we shouldn't say. What is actually more hurtful to this traumatic experience of estrangement for this adult daughter? Because, again, an assumption is that this was easy for her, this was impulsive for her, when really it's like months or years of the process.
I have one client that inspired one of these characters in the book that even now, 10 years into her work, she continues every year to question should I reach out to mom this year? Should I talk to mom this year? There's significant trauma there that mom will not own at all, and so it's fascinating how human this is right To say. Am I going to have regrets? Am I going to be sad if I get a call that mom has died? If mom's, you know, going into needing care, how do I show up for her? Should I show up for her? There's so much there and obviously each woman's story is unique as to what they decide. But, yeah, society is definitely saying family first. You're going to regret this, right. So I really try and talk about what we could say differently than that.
0:23:12 - Hilary Russo
Yeah, being able to support yourself and know how to nurture yourself in that moment and not find yourself in a place where you're oh, I don't know. I mean, like I said earlier, the gaslighting, the manipulation, any kind of toxicity that might come with words, because suddenly you go back to the inner child, suddenly you can be a five year old, hearing words from that parent and you feel it like you did. If you ever witnessed that before as a child. Speaking of children, do you find that there are some women that have made a choice not to have children because they were scared to have the kind of relationships that they witnessed from generations in the past, like if a mother and a daughter or a grandmother and a mother are not communicating or a sister is not communicating generation before you, suddenly you feel like, well, I'm going to just wind up having the same thing, so I'm not having kids, I'm not entering, I'm not bringing anything into this world, because this trauma is just generational.
0:24:15 - Khara Croswaite Brindle
Yeah, oh, absolutely. I mean, we actually tackle that in the book as well as, like, one of the beliefs is what if I'm broken? But what if I pass this on to my kid? What if I become my mother, for better or worse? Right In this lens of worse, I think that's such a natural thought. And then I actually, when I started writing this book, I just give birth to my daughter, and so I was very aware that I was writing about attachment and trauma and healing, as I was also trying to build healthy attachment with my infant daughter. And so many people worry about, you know, especially if they're like, tracking all these things in the family tree. I think of even just medical conditions and mental health conditions of like, oh, am I going to bring that into my child's life? Yeah, it's causing a lot of fear for people of like, what if this gets recreated again? What if this estrangement is possible in another generation? That's valid.
0:25:04 - Hilary Russo
Do you talk specifically about attachment styles in the book?
0:25:07 - Khara Croswaite Brindle
I do, yep, I talk about the secure, anxious avoidant, disorganized, how that shows up from childhood into adulthood. Absolutely yeah, can't help myself.
0:25:16 - Hilary Russo
That's definitely an area you're yeah, no, I get it and it's so interesting, but I think we're seeing more people that are diving into not self therapy, because obviously we need support, especially when we're dealing. We need support especially when we're dealing with trauma. Right, never do trauma work on your own. It's good to have somebody on the outside, like a licensed therapist or somebody in the field, that can support you in that area, to help you get a different perspective on things. But I do find that more people are open to learning new things, just so there's an awareness, so that when they're meeting with their therapist or their practitioner, they have a much more, they're much more aware of what is being shared with them, rather than just sitting across from your therapist or practitioner. And this is how it is right, right?
I think, we're becoming our own healthcare advocates. What I'm saying, yeah absolutely, I mean.
0:26:13 - Khara Croswaite Brindle
I think that's why, when people are like who's this book for, I say it's for the adult daughters and it's for the clinicians that serve them, Because an adult daughter might pick up this book and say this is my experience. I feel seen by the cycle or some aspect of the book. And then there's 24 tools throughout the book that are things they could do on their own, but also I encourage them to do with their clinician to say am I doing a particular exercise? I call them therapeutic tools, but there are things I would have done with a client in the room to say does this help you in your process? Does this move you from one stage to the next? So those tools are something that those adult daughters could read, do on their own or bring into a supportive environment, whether that's a coach, a therapist, a mentor or a family member, depending on what feels appropriate.
0:26:57 - Hilary Russo
And I think we're also seeing that as well. We're seeing more people reaching out and getting coaching, because sometimes it's just like having a sister or a brother or a friend that's there to help you, that is able to see things from the outside, looking in. That isn't personally connected. There's just so much you can lay this on a family member, especially when you might be sitting there complaining to your real sister or your brother or an aunt or somebody about a family member that they already have a connection with and they have a completely different kind of relationship with. That's not helpful to any party.
0:27:32 - Khara Croswaite Brindle
Yeah, that bias of like oh I can't be neutral for you, I have my own thoughts. Yeah, this is why they go to someone outside the family. That's pretty typical.
0:27:40 - Hilary Russo
Yeah. So let's mention the book again. It's Understanding Ruptured Mother-Daughter Relationships, Guiding the Adult Daughter's Healing Journey through the Estrangement Energy Cycle. And Khara also has another book that is written to support the child and the parent and the teacher. We're going to put both of those in the links to this podcast. But I have a question for you Do you find that there might be mothers that would be open to reading this book?
0:28:09 - Khara Croswaite Brindle
I hope so. I mean, I think there are lots of books out there for parents. When I was doing the research on this, getting this book up and running, I found so many books for parents that really spoke to their the will-dermant, their pain, their anger, their outrage that this was happening, which has its value right. They need to feel seen and supported as well. I feel like the mother who's going to pick up this book is someone who's I'm curious to heal. I want to reconcile, I want to work on myself. I want to understand my daughter's perspective. This book might help them with that because it's really written from the eyes of the adult daughter. So if they're feeling a disconnect where they don't understand why adult daughter has made this choice, this could be enlightening, I would hope.
0:28:49 - Hilary Russo
And maybe pave the way for a new relationship.
0:28:53 - Khara Croswaite Brindle
Absolutely.
0:28:53 - Hilary Russo
Or just an evolved relationship. You know it's lovely when we were able to see that. I want to play a quick game with you. Or if there's anything else you want to add. Let me just stop there and say is there anything else about the book you'd like to add, or anything about the Estrangement Energy Cycle? I want to give you the space to share there.
0:29:10 - Khara Croswaite Brindle
Yeah. So one other thing to highlight real quick is that we have some morning signs for both mothers and daughters. So off the top of my head it was things like you know, on the daughter side, a lack of boundaries, resentment brewing, that kind of language was in her checklist as adult daughter and then for the mother checklist it was things like are you steamrolling over those boundaries? Are you calling when she said not to call? Are you making demands? Are you feeling like there's friction? Are you getting feedback from the daughter that she's not happy with the relationship?
So try to itemize a couple of things that both daughters and mothers could look at and say, hmm, is that true for us? Like, is that something in our life right now? Is that in the relationship right now? Is this an opportunity to discuss and heal and grow? Or is it like a ooh, that's me and I need to go do some work around that professionally with a therapist or coach or mentor or whoever? So by no means is it. You have to have one of them and you're in dire straits. It's more like the more you have on this checklist, the more you probably want to sit and think about what do I want to do with this information? Does it catapult me into a growth place of wanting to heal and change?
0:30:24 - Hilary Russo
And sometimes it might just be that the relationship needs to be on that level of some, some estrangement. Maybe you're not as close to that person and that's okay too. I think that's something I really want to put out. There is that if you come to a decision especially after reading this book, which I'm very excited to get the copy in my hand when you're able to make that decision and know that you have the tools that helped you make that decision, and if that choice is that I really need to have some safe boundaries, but I'm still open to possibly the physical strange or the emotional estrangement, but the physical I don't want to not have this person in my life.
Whatever you choose to do if it's good for you is the right choice because it's self-first. You have to live your life before anybody else's. So everybody's journey is going to be different and I want to make sure we put that out there to those who are listening, to those who might be watching that your journey is your own. What you choose with the tools that you have is the right choice, as long as it's not hurting you or anybody else. You choose to choose and you know what. You can also make a different choice. If you decide down the line, I'm ready now Be open to that as well.
I imagine you agree with that? Yeah?
0:31:52 - Khara Croswaite Brindle
Oh yeah, I'm just sitting here thinking about their seasons of our life right, yeah, or there's a season of independence, which is why a lot of our 20-something year olds are thinking about a strange thing, because it almost feels in alignment with independence I'm out of a nest, I'm doing my own thing. You know, the angry teenage part is like don't tell me what to do. That's what I tell my clients. We all have that angry teenage part of stubbornness, like don't tell me what to do. But then maybe I just I realize I'm going to be a mother. Maybe I'm pregnant and I'm like, wow, I really want my mom in my life. How can I have her in my life in a way that's healthy and supportive at that stage or that season of my life? Maybe I'm getting older and she's getting older, and so I think the bright spot for folks who are like man, we're in a strange moment, or one of those one in 12 people.
There is research saying that you know, about 80% of these women are reconciling with their mothers. Obviously, we can't speak to like how long that took or what happened to make that possible, but if 80% plus percent of these women are reconciling with their mothers, there is hope that the relationship can change, that the season can change, that most of us in the mental health space are going to say we've got to work on it together. This is where, like family therapy or estrangement specialist is going to come into play, because it's complex and so it might not be as simple as just saying I owe you an apology. It might be we're doing some deep work here to have a healthier relationship, so don't feel like you have to do it on your own. I think that's what I'm saying.
0:33:12 - Hilary Russo
Well, that's the other thing. Well, both parties, or any parties involved, have to do their own healing work and growth work. It's very hard to be able to create a space where the two parties are going to come together, when only one party is willing to do the work and the other might be saying well, everything's your fault, you're the one that needs therapy. So think about those things as well. You can only do so much. It is still teamwork.
There's still a relationship to consider and a relationship takes more than one person, except the one with yourself. That's the most important one to work on. So, with that being said, I have really enjoyed this conversation. This is so great. I cannot wait to get that book in my hands.
You booked this so fast that I haven't gotten the book yet. I'm like I reached out to your publicist. I'm like slam me the book and I want to end with just doing a quick game with you that I do with my guests on the show. I've been writing down some words that are things you've said during this conversation and I want you to come back with the first word that comes to mind. Let's see how Tara's brain is working, oh no.
Sometimes I think I should do this at the beginning of the podcast but then I don't have words to use. All right, you ready, I'm ready, okay, alliance.
0:34:37 - Khara Croswaite Brindle
Relationships Toxic Parenting.
0:34:41 - Hilary Russo
Estrangement, daughter, children, lovable Valderies, therapy, therapy, that's my word. Come back to that chair.
0:34:59 - Khara Croswaite Brindle
Champion.
0:35:01 - Hilary Russo
And I have to put my glasses on for this last one, because I can't read my own handwriting. Oh, I was trying to write down the name of the character in your book.
0:35:09 - Khara Croswaite Brindle
The Children's Book that name, yeah, so Penny McGee's Family Tree Penny McGee.
0:35:15 - Hilary Russo
Penny McGee. It's Penny Penny McGee, so what would you? It's two words I'm throwing out at you, but what would you say about?
0:35:21 - Khara Croswaite Brindle
that Vulnerability.
0:35:27 - Hilary Russo
And isn't that? That's a great way to end this, because starting as a child, understanding these things makes you a more well-rounded adult and, as we've heard from Brittany Brown, vulnerability is courage.
0:35:39 - Khara Croswaite Brindle
Right, it is.
0:35:40 - Hilary Russo
Yeah, absolutely is.
0:35:42 - Khara Croswaite Brindle
There's courage in the conversation. That's my hope.
0:35:44 - Hilary Russo
Thank you. There is and being vulnerable to take that step. As long as it doesn't step on your own boundaries and hurt you, it's okay. It's okay to try that as well. Are there any final thoughts you'd like to leave with listeners?
0:35:57 - Khara Croswaite Brindle
My hope is it's just gonna speak to the women who felt like they haven't had a voice in this conversation before now. So I'm really grateful that we could talk about adult daughters and what they're going through. As I alluded to, there are lots of books out there for the parents and I definitely recommend a bunch of them, and I wanna make sure these women have a voice too. So thank you for having me on the podcast to talk about it.
0:36:16 - Hilary Russo
Okay, my friends, if you or someone you know is facing family estrangement, specifically with a mother-daughter relationship, consider putting Khara's book in your hands or paying it forward. That book, again is called Understanding Ruptured Mother-Daughter Relationships Guiding the Adult Daughter's Healing Journey through the Estrangement Energy Cycle. I added a link to that book, as well as her children's book also, and you can also connect with Khara by visiting her website or her social media. You'll find those links as well. And Khara mentioned the importance of self-regulation tools. There are many. We need to put those little tools in our brain candy jar right and pull them out when we need those the sweetest ways to be kind to our mind. As I always say, Havening could be one of those tools. If you wanna learn how to hug it out, how to put the healing in your own hands, set up a call with me. Let's see if Havening is right for you.
HIListically Speaking, is edited by 2 Market Media with music by Lipone Redding and Listen to by you, my listener. So thank you for your continued support.
On that note, never forget the importance of healthy boundaries and if you need support, know that there is always help, because the most important relationship is the one with self. I love you, I believe in you and I will see you next week.
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Is your child acting out and has problems paying attention? What you've been told about their "willful bad behavior" could be wrong and Dr. Connie McReynolds has neurofeedback to back it up. On this episode of the HIListically Speaking Podcast, Hilary Russo asks Dr. Connie how she has been able to Solve the ADHD Riddle and the traumas associated with it. Including, anxiety, anger, panic attacks, conduct disorder, depression, chronic pain, cognitive decline, and PTSD Plus, she answers listeners' questions to help you understand what your child needs in order to thrive.
Take Dr. Connie's free assessment: 7 Signs Your Child May Have Auditory or Visual Processing Problems https:/www.conniemcreynolds.com
Connect with Dr. Connie:
https://www.facebook.com/people/Dr-Connie-McReynolds/100024845513843/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/connie-mcreynolds-ph-d-463502b/
https://www.instagram.com/morningstarneurofeedback/
Connect with Hilary:
https://www.instagram.com/hilaryrusso
https://www.youtube.com/hilaryrusso
https://www.facebook.com/hilisticallyspeaking
https://twitter.com/HilaryRusso
https://www.tiktok.com/@hilisticallyspeaking
https://www.hilaryrusso.com/podcast
Music by Lipbone Redding https://lipbone.com/
Chapters
0:00 Intro
4:25 Neurofeedback and ADHD
7:00 Changing the narrative about behavior
8:40 Information on free assessment
11:00 Hyperactivity, neurodivergence, and bullying
13:55 auditory and visual processing
15:25 You can teach an old brain new tricks: ADHD and adults
22:55 Biggest challenge writing Solving the ADHD Riddle
25:55 Listeners' questions
31:33 Hilary shares the THINK method
39:00 Rapid Fire game
39:56 Dr. Connie McReynold's final thoughts
41:07 Hilary's close: Show and guest info
TRANSCRIPT
Dr. Connie McReynolds
And so if we change the narrative and how we think about what's going on and what behaviors mean, if we broaden that discussion, if we open that conversation to a different level, and we understand what's really going on behind the behaviors or underneath the behaviors, what's actually causing the behaviors, then we can guide this child in ways that we would not be able to otherwise.
Hilary Russo
Does this sound familiar? Your child is acting out. They aren't paying attention. They can't even follow simple tasks and whether it's coming from you or the teachers, you're just at your wits end. I know there are a number of listeners out there that are going, Oh, yeah, Hilary , tell me about it. And you're running out of therapies.
You're running out of medication ideas and you're just over it and you want to know if there's other solutions. Well, that is exactly why we have Dr. Connie McReynolds here today. She's a licensed psychologist. She's a professor, rehabilitation counselor. She's also a podcaster. Love my fellow podcasters who is on the road to map the brain to give you alternative approaches to change the narrative around ADHD, whether we're talking about your child. Where we are talking about you because we're going to touch on that today.
So Dr. Connie, thank you so much for joining me on HIListically Speaking, for being a voice and just having the ability to talk about this openly because it really is a topic. I think we're not only hearing about how to manage the ADHD with our children, but also ourselves.
We're finding out these things about ourselves and starting to ask questions.
Dr. Connie McReynolds
Oh, thank you, Hilary, for having me. It's a pleasure to be here today and I look forward to our conversation.
Hilary Russo
Your book, Solving the ADHD Riddle, which is the real cause and lasting solutions to your child's struggle to learn.
What was your reason for writing this book? I'm going to show this to those who are watching on YouTube, but what made you go here when you actually, as a psychologist, have been holding space for those who are age five, all the way up to 95? Why the kids?
Dr. Connie McReynolds
So over the 15 years that I've been doing this work, um, I, and I'll back up just a skosh, which is it really goes back to my own childhood, which my mother taught second grade for 32 years in the same classroom.
And so I come from a long line of teachers and people and my mother was quite innovative. In her world, she brought typewriters into the second grade, you know, 30 some years ago, 40 some years ago, because she knew that's where the future was going. And she thought, let's teach these kiddos how to do this.
And so fast forward really into my work, I've been a psychologist in the rehabilitation counseling field for well over 30 years now. And my goal has always been strength based assessment and understanding how people are functioning in their life. Looking at these areas that maybe aren't working well for them, it's like, well, what is this?
And then about 15 years ago when I started this new assessment center and institute in Southern California at a university, I had the opportunity to start exploring what this process was that I now use, which I know we'll get into, it's called neurofeedback. But the precursor to all of that and the reason this book is out is because I started seeing what was happening to children You have these auditory and visual processing problems that get labeled as a whole broad host of other kinds of conditions, and these other conditions led to interventions that for the folks that I was working with.
It wasn't working. And so everyone was struggling and really it evolved from understanding, uncovering, discovering what I think is the real cause of a lot of the struggle of people, regardless of age, and then getting this out. So once I had the way to really work with people, no matter where they are, then it's like, okay, get the book out.
So now the book can be out there. Now we can talk about this.
Hilary Russo
You mentioned neurofeedback, and if you can elaborate on that just for folks that might not necessarily know exactly what that means. What do you mean by the neurofeedback?
Dr. Connie McReynolds
Well, I start with the definition of biofeedback, which most people have heard of.
Hilary Russo
Mm-Hmm.
Dr. Connie McReynolds
Which biofeedback you use a little sensor, you can measure your pulse, you can measure your respiration with this. And by being coached on how to breathe differently or relax your muscles, we learned over time, this has been decades ago, that we could actually affect how our body was operating.
Which became shortened from biological information to biofeedback. And so neurofeedback is the same concept. It's simply reading data from the body, in this case from the brain. It's fed into an instrument, in this case the computer. And then we interact with that data lifetime. In live real time so that a person can affect change in their life.
So they literally are learning how to do their own brain training with the feedback so they can understand what's happening in their brain. It's a, it's a brain boost in a short, short, uh, shortcut to affecting change.
Hilary Russo
I think we could all use a brain boost no matter what age we're at. And I, I imagine catching this, these disruptions. In our lives earlier when we're a child is going to help pave the way for a much better adulthood if we're able to see what need, what the needs are, how to manage what we've uncovered at an earlier age, because I know myself, there have been many times where I'm like, Gosh, am I do I have ADHD? Like we tend to label ourselves, right?
I'm so creative. I've post-it notes everywhere, you know, and we start wondering, What's wrong with me? And putting that label on ourselves is certainly not helpful. And we don't want the children to do that. So how are you approaching this in a way where the children are able to, to look at it as well? I'm sure this book is mainly for the adult, but how, how can a child accept who they are and.Manage something that might make them special, or maybe deal with things a little differently.
Dr. Connie McReynolds
Well, that comes from how adults interact primarily with children. And so if we change the narrative and how we think about what's going on and what behaviors mean, if we broaden that discussion, if we open that conversation to a different level, And we understand what's really going on behind the behaviors or underneath the behaviors, what's actually causing the behaviors, then we can guide this child in ways that we would not be able to otherwise.
So, for example, a child who can't remember what's being said is going to look like they're disorganized, not paying attention, inattentive, we give a whole host. of labels. Sometimes words are said such as it just goes in one ear and out the other. Nothing seems to stick. It's like, well, you're actually quite right.
That is pretty much what is going on, but it is not a willful situation. And so when we change the narrative about the behaviors and what the behaviors actually mean. Then everyone relaxes a little bit, and that's the key here. Let's get us out of this kind of fight flight, kind of push pull, tug of war kind of situation, punishment reward basis.
None of that is going to work for the child who has auditory visual processing. Because if they can't hang on to what you're saying or showing, it doesn't matter how many times you say it, or how loudly you say it, or what you take away, it doesn't change the actual underlying cause, which is, this child can't remember what's going on, and it isn't about intellectual.
And I think that's where we're seeing growth in this day and age, especially we're using the word neurodivergence. We're using words that are, that I don't want to say acceptable because everybody should be acceptable, accepted rather, but more of just a better understanding and knowing how we can support somebody who might need additional support in a certain area.
Hilary Russo
Well, we all have, we all need support in a different area, right? We're all needing something special in some area. So for. For kids that are facing auditory and visual processing problems, which isn't a chapter that you cover in your book under the understanding of the real cause, what can we do for that child?
Dr. Connie McReynolds
Well, it starts with really being able to figure out what's going on. So I just kind of wax momentarily over to the website, and I'm sure we'll have that information available later. Absolutely. There's a brief free assessment up on the front page. of my website. It's a great starting point because start there, because if you can figure out, okay, are there some factors here that do seem to check the box on how either a friend, myself, or my child is operating, then that gets you in the door for understanding there could be something else going on here.
And then depending on how far you want to go in the book, there are chapters. That are specific to auditory specific to visual processing and there are checklists in there so you can literally go through those checklists. And once you figure out. Oh my gosh, my child is checking, checking 10 boxes here on auditory, or oh my goodness, I've checked boxes in both of these, what am I going to do?
Well, there's a lot that we can do. Once you understand what you're dealing with, you can then decode the behaviors, and when we can decode those behaviors, such as anger, frustration, and lack of follow through, and disorganization, can't remember anything, then there are strategies that parents and teachers can use right away.
To help ease up some of the tension and the frustration and the understanding that it isn't willful bad behavior is the big starting point here. This isn't willful bad behavior.
Hilary Russo
I just had a conversation with some colleagues about this very thing as we're trying to find ways and this is a perfect example of strategies to not only support. The teacher, the educator or the parent, but going back to focusing on the educator, the teacher, it's not just helping them understand how they can support the student and the child. But what about the, the children around that child in that classroom? Is this also giving teachers and educators tools to, while they're supporting that child that needs additional help in this area who might have ADHD? Let's Let's help the other kids in the class understand how they can be a support system too.
Dr. Connie McReynolds
Well, I think it does because I think once we get away from thinking there's something wrong or this person's doing something wrong to get to a, what I kind of think of is a more. Uh, sensitive approach or, you know, compassionate approach perhaps to what's going on with the child.
It's so easy to say, oh, just sit still. Well, if this child has hyperactivity, that's not going to do any good. You can say sit still all day long and this child can't do it because they have a hyperactivity function in the brain that's interfering with that. So it's getting away from thinking these, these kids are just acting badly in my classroom.
And then that. If we think about what that subtle and not so subtle message is, then how does that spread out to the children in the classroom and how they view this child as well? And so if we're constantly kind of getting on this child, then this is a set up for bullying that happens for children who are considered divergent or different or however we want to describe it.
But children have an innate ability to sniff out something that isn't quite right. And then depending upon how we guide these children as to whether we accept or reject that person who falls into the so called different category. And if a teacher has a deeper understanding, and many of them do, so I come from a long line of teachers.
I was a teacher. So, you know, I want teachers to know I get it. I know what this is like. I watched my mother deal with this for her thirty two years and it is an issue in the classroom. Yet, if we can understand what this really is about. Um, which I proved at the pilot project in an elementary school, which is the chapter in the book.
I proved that this makes a difference, both in the classroom, in the school, the behavioral outcomes that are needed, interventions that are needed. We can change the trajectory of all of this. When we know what we're looking at.
Is it also giving children tools and different kind of approaches to, as you mentioned, retrain the brain or train the brain?
Hilary Russo
Is it, is it teaching them new social and emotional learning tools? Or like for me, I, I work in the field, the havening technique, which can change your thoughts, moods, behaviors, and habits. And we have used it with children with ADHD or just giving. Kids tools to self regulate for self soothing and self care.
Are those kind of things also addressed in the book and in what you're doing and what you found?
Dr. Connie McReynolds
Well, what I will say is all of this can be effective if a child can remember what's being introduced. Ah, yes. So all of these things are great interventions, but if I can't remember what you're asking me to do and what you've shown me to do, it doesn't matter how great that intervention is, I'm not going to succeed at that.
And that's where this narrative has to expand, which is, yes, there are wonderful interventions out there, but I have to be able to hang on to it.
Hilary Russo
And in doing so, if you're, if they're not able to hold on to the information or remember the information, how. Is the approach you're using helping them if they might not be able to remember it?
Dr. Connie McReynolds
Well, that's why I assess at the front end because at the front end of the intake before we provide services I'm looking at 37 areas of auditory and visual processing And once we figure out what areas are working great. It's like great. This is your strength These areas are a little bit weaker over here So we need to do some brain training in this area so that we can strengthen this and through practice, which is what the brain training is, it's an organized, systematic, you know, process that the brain learns through, which is repetition.
And so when we use this concept of repetition, it's very targeted, it's very structured, then the brain learns how to do things better. And then all these other things can come into play if they're still needed some of them we found because I can now remember better. I might be able to follow through better in the classroom or do better at home.
So maybe I'm not so mad anymore that people are on me all the time. I'm a little person. So maybe I can do better now. In other cases, there are other behaviors, uh, sometimes with autism, there can be other types of behaviors and with some other kinds of disorders. So that's where there could be some of these other supportive techniques that once a child can remember what this is, can hang on to the information, can conceptualize it and work with it.
Then you can move forward, and I've always said you, you have to get all this in the right order for folks. You have to figure out what's first, and if I can't remember something, talking to me all day long isn't going to make any difference because I can't remember what you're saying.
Hilary Russo
Are these the same kind of tools that you would use with a child that you would An adult age?
I mean, is it going to be different depending on the age and where you are in your life, your experiences? I imagine you take a lot of things into consideration.
Dr. Connie McReynolds
Well, the intake certainly is extensive. It's an hour and a half process that I do. And a few minutes at 27 minutes of that is the computer based assessment.
But part of it's really understanding how does this person live their life, what's happening in the day to day world. Again, what are those strengths areas, what are those areas where they're tripping or falling or not doing well or whatever it might be. Uh, and so it, it's really brain processing. It's the concept of neuroplasticity, which means virtually anyone at any age can train their brain.
So I have people, I have a unit down in a retirement center working with senior citizens because they either want to tune it up or they don't want to lose it. So, that's a big
fear. I mean, experiencing that as we have having elderly parents and just being around that, that one of the biggest fears is not being able to remember or losing that sense of independence.
Hilary Russo
And, you know, when we have, A sense of uncertainty. Obviously, the brain is going to go to the negative first. We have to retrain it to find like you're okay. All is well.
Dr. Connie McReynolds
You can do this. Is it tougher with the adults than it is with children because they've had so much learning. It's like teaching the old dog new tricks. Well, the good news is we can teach old dogs new tricks. So, yay.
Hilary Russo
Yay to that.
Dr. Connie McReynolds
It is. Actually, there's a great clip I use. Uh, from this gentleman is a professor at the University of Florida who put some, um, research out that he had done. And he actually uses that as his closing statement. He said, it's true.
You can teach old dogs, new tricks because he had his average age was 72 in this large study that he did with senior citizens with neurofeedback and longitudinal. So he would come back and assess their cognitive abilities without any further. Neurofeedback, and they continue to show, um, an increased cognitive level of functioning over people who had not been, uh, using neurofeedback.
So it's doable. It may take my 90 year old a little bit longer than my 5 year old to perhaps learn how to use the mouse, first of all. We've had to teach mouse skills to older mature adults. Oh, yes, of course, we've had to do that social media.
So once you're going to get the mouse skills down, it's surprising how well they can do. They do very well. And they're so motivated because they want to improve their brain and children. just want to get along. They just want to do what people are asking them to do. They don't want to be in trouble. They just, you know, just want to be held and loved and cuddled and have fun and learn and grow and do all those great things without the punishment and the, oh, the discord that happens so often with all of this.
That's a very painful childhood. When people don't quite understand what's going on and don't know what your needs are.
Hilary Russo
And also, and fitting in, like just being heard and fitting in, you know, with your peers. And also, you know, I was a child, uh, my brother was 12 years older than me. So it was kind of like being an only child. And I think being around adults, uh, caused me to tune in, um, in a different way and being heard was really important. You know, but you wound up being, you wind up being very creative because as kind of an only child in the home, at least you find creative ways to keep yourself busy. Do you think sometimes that a lot of, do you see rather, do you see where there is a higher level of ADHD in certain kind of family dynamics?
Dr. Connie McReynolds
Well, I think that's an interesting question because There are times, and there have been quite a few of them over the years, where parents will bring their child in, we'll do the assessment, I'm going through the results of the assessment, and one of the parents will say, Oh, he or she's just like me, he or she's just like his father or his mother, or we have an aunt or an uncle or a grandparent or someone that has similarities in these behaviors and what's going on.
So there's kind of an awareness within some families that there may be a trait Here. Um, that's a tendency toward maybe struggling with some of this. Um, other times I can tell you there could be four or five children in the family and there's one that for some reason is struggling like none of the others ever have the parents are scratching their heads or pulling their hair out because everything they did with all the other children isn't working.
And so there's something unique about this child. And again, yeah. Depending on kind of how the parents are wired, you know, are they perceiving this as something they're doing wrong? Are they perceiving that there's something wrong with this child? Or are they kind of in a different place? And so really the orientation of where the parents are coming from drives a lot of what's happening within the family as it naturally would.
Hilary Russo
Hmm. Okay. One thing I noticed from the book is that you do mention specific children and their names and their actual situations. And I imagine that these are actual, um, clients, patients that you've met with, or at least changing the name to, to protect the innocent or sweet innocent kids. But these are actual real situations.
Dr. Connie McReynolds
Yes, they absolutely are. And yes, their names have been changed. Of course.
Hilary Russo
They're sweet names though. I like your choices.
Dr. Connie McReynolds
I worked hard on that actually. I'm trying to make sure it wasn't anyone in the database.
Hilary Russo
Right. And oh, that's, I didn't even think that's very true, but also names that kind of names could have a feeling to them.
Dr. Connie McReynolds
MMhm.
Hilary Russo
Right. So when I was looking at the names, like the Abigail's and the. Jeremy's and the Zoe's, I can almost envision who they are. So I imagine that was something you thought about, like, who is this person and how are they represented?
Dr. Connie McReynolds
I did. I gave quite a bit of thought to that. It was, you know, kind of, okay, what does this feel like? Knowing that I didn't want to do anything that could make someone feel uncomfortable and people had signed releases anyway, but, um, you know, you still want to make sure everyone is okay.
Hilary Russo
Right. So when I was lookOf course. Yeah. So there's a lot that you cover in the book from the interventions for teachers to empower the children.
You mentioned some about the neural feedback and how the brain works. And of course, the auditory and visual process. I'm curious, like, what was the most challenging area of this book? And by the way, let's just mention the book again, Solving the ADHD Riddle, The Real Cause and Lasting Solutions to Your Child's Struggle to Learn by Dr. Connie McReynolds. And so happy to have you as a guest. And by the way, she did mention before, if you go to her website, which we will put in the list of notes, you can download and do the free assessment on her website to that might answer some questions you might have. So definitely take advantage of that.
And that will be in the list of notes. But again, going back to the question, what. What was the most challenging part of writing this book?
Dr. Connie McReynolds
That is such a great question. Um, it was really kind of the process was I didn't want to put this book out there until I had the solution that anyone could really access because I really didn't want it to be just something else that I was adding to information perhaps but didn't have solutions to it.
So really it was making sure that the solutions or the suggestions or what is in there are doable or workable that we had used in the clinics, uh, that we tested with people over the years, um, and that schools can use. And so part of this was really making it a usable tool. For both parents and teachers that when you go in there, I have information about IEPs and 504s and you know, how do you try and advocate for your child because that's important.
A lot of parents don't know that they can do this. So it was just, I will say it's a labor of love. It took a while to do it because it had to be right. And I just absolutely labored over. Literally, um, all of it, uh, as time went on, it was, you know, setting the stage for this, it's like, how do I tell the story?
How do I make it meaningful to parents? How do I make it? So it's relatable for parents and teachers. How do I and here was the big piece. How do I get this out of the academic jargon? That's in my head. Of 25 years where I've written for professional journals and a journal editor and all of that going on that is a language that most people don't appreciate outside of academe and really dialing it in, dialing it in to where it was as if the person studying in my conference room and I'm having a conversation with them about this is what's happening with your child.
This is the good news, bad news, good news, good news, bad news, good news, whatever you want to call it. This is what's happening. This is why they're doing what they're doing. And this is what we can do about it. And I wanted it to be conversational in its approach so that it felt Digestible and understandable, beautiful, love that and really it is a book that is very easy to read.
Hilary Russo
It's actually pleasant to even look at like it that just pulls me in the cover, just seeing children and the happy it gives a happy like there's a there's a solution. That's what it says, and which there is many.
Dr. Connie McReynolds
There is. Yes.
Hilary Russo
And, and when we're talking about solving the ADHD riddle, I know the focus in the book mainly is for children and, and we're for helping our children for the educators and teachers and parents out there.
If you don't mind, I'd love for us to take some questions from those who have HIListically Speaking and just see what your thoughts are about that. Is that.
Dr. Connie McReynolds
Love to. Let's go for it.
Hilary Russo
So that first question, let's, let's go step away from just the children for a second. And how would an adult with ADHD find the best kind of support? And that is from Amy from Pennsylvania.
Dr. Connie McReynolds
So it's the same process because this cuts across no matter what the age is. So the techniques in here that are maybe written for a child with ADHD, the feedback I've had from parents and adults who have ADHD who've read this, it's like I've seen my Self through this entire book as an adult.
These are the things I've been struggling with. And now I have an answer for what this is like. I've worked with adults all over the, all over, uh, who have these attention problems. They just thought. They weren't smart enough. They just felt like there was something wrong with them that they had to work so much harder than everyone else.
So that latter statement is true because if you're swimming upstream all the time, and other people are swimming downstream, you are working much harder to get to where you want to go. And the beauty is, if we can uncover this and help you with this and figure out what's going on and train your brain, then guess what you get to do?
You get to turn around and float down the stream instead of working so hard.
Hilary Russo
That is such a great way of putting it. And it kind of leads into my follow up, which you kind of answered, but in all curiosity, With adults, once you have a diagnosis or you have answers, you're able to manage things or know what to do with the next step.
So, with somebody like Amy who has adult ADHD or somebody who's like, I think there's something I, something's resisting with how I feel about myself. Once somebody does find out that they might be dealing with ADHD, is there a next step?
Dr. Connie McReynolds
Well, yes. And so it really there's kind of two schools of thought here that I've learned about.
One is the traditional approach. And so there are very traditional approaches. Some people choose that it may work well for them. So it could be medication. It could be just learning how the techniques are to work harder or work smarter. Uh, the other, of course, is what a lot of folks are choosing to do, which is really train their brain.
So if I can train my brain to tackle the underlying cause of what's going on in my life, and it tends to hold, so I don't have to keep going back to that therapist. I'm a therapist. I love my clients, but I want them to do well and go on out the world.
Hilary Russo
Well, and the antithesis of what we do for a living in this, in this world.
The career that we've chosen is that we never want to see our clients again because you want people to come in, get it figured out, implement the new way of being to hit their goals. So you can go on and do what you want to do in an easier manner in your life. And so we can clear out. You know, this, whatever you want to call it, clear out the fog, clear out the, the barriers, clear out all of these things that aren't really working, that are really causing you to work so much harder than the next person and you don't have to.
Dr. Connie McReynolds
In other words, if there's a way that you can actually do something to help your brain get stronger in these areas, and it tends to hold. Hmm. Seems like people might like that and that's the feedback I've been getting for 15 years is that I've treated people with anxiety, severe anxiety, severe trauma, and they write or they call me or they come in years later and they say, I just want you to know it just keeps getting better and better.
Hilary Russo
Yeah, once you have answers, it's nice because it's scary to get the answer sometimes, but at least you have information and knowledge is power and hope the correct knowledge, because obviously I'm sure people have been misdiagnosed in the past or diagnosed themselves and that can be very scary.
Dr. Connie McReynolds
Yeah.
Hilary Russo
That could be dangerous too. I mean, you start going down the rabbit hole, you know?
Well, and people do because they have a symptom or two and they hear something from someone and then our lovely world where anything's available to us at the touch of our fingers, uh, we can go down rabbit holes that really are not productive.
Dr. Connie McReynolds
And so the question is, is the information enlightening you and helping you make choices? Or is it pulling you down and making you feel powerless? And so you're wanting to look for those solutions that are going to lift you up, give you a way out up into the world that you want to live. And that's what's so important is getting the right help, figuring out what's really going on and then making those changes in your life.
Hilary Russo
And sometimes we all need help.
Dr. Connie McReynolds
Yeah. So sometimes we can't do it on our own. But, you know, hopefully, that's a short term process to where we can get this going for you. And then you can go on and just sail. It's like we want you out there just sailing and flying and doing fantastic in your life. And that's the real testament to this work is that yes, we have the assessments and yes, we can measure the progress.
And yes, we have the data. The true measure for me is how are you doing in your life? You know, are you seeing changes? Are you living differently? And is it a natural process? And with neural feedback, it's such a nice, subtle process that people will come in and say, you know, I just reflected on something that happened yesterday and I realized that in the past I would have blown up.
I would have stayed angry for days on end. This situation happened and I realized a couple of hours later I'd completely forgotten about it. And that's my life now.
Hilary Russo
This reminds me so much of the think method. You know, the things that we tell ourselves, and I know you know what this is, but to the listeners out there, the think method, which you've heard me talk about before, ask yourself before you go down that rabbit hole, is what you're telling yourself true?
Is it helpful? Is it inspiring? Is it necessary? And is it kind? Think, think before you speak or speak to yourself because the words we use and choose towards ourselves are sometimes more damaging than what anyone else could. ever possibly say to us, you know, your own worst bully, sometimes great.
Dr. Connie McReynolds
We really are. And in the book, I actually speak to that because there's a section in there for parents, but it's for us too. It's for every adult who might be picking this book up. It's really, what are we saying to ourselves and how can we change that narrative up? And it's so important because we have to be our own best friend, our own best advocate, uh, to live our best life.
Hilary Russo
Yeah. Including your own. Best health advocate to ask questions. If you don't know what a doctor is telling you, or if you challenge something, that's okay, too. I think we've gotten to this mindset that what the doctor says goes. And I think now in this alternative and integrative approach to medicine, where we're blending the Western and Eastern medicine, we're seeing these holistic alternative possibilities. And it's allowing us to say, you know what? I'm I don't know if I want to go that route that that might be a band aid. I'd like to see what my body can do to heal itself first if I need to go to that.
Dr. Connie McReynolds
Right.
Hilary Russo
But then I guess for those who are already maybe taking medication, this is in no way. By the way, this is no way saying stop the meds. Do not do that without a doctor's, um, you know, advisement, but it could move you to a place where maybe you are taking a lower dosage. Maybe eventually you're weaning yourself off of something with a doctor's care because you are practicing integrative approaches to bettering your health and wellness.
That's being a health advocate.
Dr. Connie McReynolds
It really is. And it's absolutely true because we have parents who've come in who said, you know, my child is on medications. It's helped. It doesn't help. It helps. It doesn't help kind of thing. And, uh, we have side effects of some people. Not everyone has side effects, but those who do, they can, they can really be a concern for people.
And so with this, what we're seeing is that as time goes on, if the brain starts working better and I can remember better. Then what happens is the child or the adult may feel over medicated a little bit, and that's where the conversation comes in, you need to go talk to your, you know, physician, your treating physician, whoever's writing those prescriptions for you, and let them know that you have made some changes, and you feel like maybe this is too strong now, and what can they do about that.
Hilary Russo
Great. One other question that I'd like to put out there, this actually didn't come across as a question, but I'm going to twist it around here a little bit, because I'm curious. Deborah from New York shared, she said she doesn't have ADHD, but hormones have never been her friend. And she also has anxiety and medical PTSD from cancer.
By the way, she's a cancer survivor. So yay you. But how can we as a collective or just individually rather, how can somebody who is facing that in their lives, you know, maybe it's a medical condition on top of finding out. That they are thinking differently or, um, going through hormonal changes. I mean, that's a big one.
Those are growing pains to how do, how does somebody support that when they're already dealing with something else?
Dr. Connie McReynolds
You know, it's such an important, um, thing for us to look at these alternatives, to look at integrative health, to look at the bigger picture. Because there aren't more answers out there, there are more ways that we can manage our health.
And an article that had come across years ago out of the Cleveland Clinic, and I used to live in Ohio and was not too far away from the setting, but one of the women who ran a cancer support group for women had herself survived breast cancer. And had developed brain fog. And so she was dealing with, uh, chemo fog is kind of the other term that they talk about for that.
And so she discovered neurofeedback and did it for herself. And found that she improved. And it was such a change for her that she actually created a study for the women in her support group. And they did a study, there was about 25 or 26 women in this group. And I think of the 25 of them who did the neurofeedback had great relief.
From the brain fog. So it's looking for these alternatives hormonal problems. Oh my gosh, you know, you just feel overpowered Yeah, by this some days. It's like what can I do for my health and it's looking for you know There's the blend of Eastern and Western that you talked about sometimes homeopathic medication can be an approach that People resonate with nature apathic folks might have some remedies or that that's more natural if you're looking for Uh, some of those remedies that may be a little bit different from Western medicine, everything has its place.
Hilary Russo
And I think part of it is just figuring out what's right for each person, right? Each of us is a little bit different. And so sometimes there's a trial and error process with this, but when you get the right combination, it can make the difference.
When I was, when I was studying, uh, integrative nutrition, we learned a lot about bio.
Uh, individuality, like what you just said, it's really each person and each situation is going to be different from somebody else. So what might work for you might not work for somebody else. And it's really finding your own way and your own path. And you know, going back to Deborah, who is a rock star for everything that you're doing to better your own health.
You even said that you find nature helping you. It helps you to slow down. So that's wonderful that you're finding something that helps you slow down when you need to slow down, right? It's finding your own way in this world so that you're running a, you're running a good operating system.
Dr. Connie McReynolds
Hilary Russo
Yeah. That's beautiful.
Well, I do want to mention again that Dr. McReynolds, Dr. Connie has graciously put on her website, a free. Brief assessment. If you have questions, if you're listening to this and it's piquing your interest, you already have questions because you're here listening and you're standing there kind of in the resistance, like, is it me?
Is it my child? Maybe I have something to think about, but don't forget that knowledge is power. Having information allows you to move to the next step. And we've talked about a lot of that. And with Dr. McReynolds book, solving the ADHD riddle, the real cause of lasting solutions to your child's struggle to learn.
Boy, oh boy, where was this book when we were younger, everyone? Like, where was this book so that we could have been approached differently and, and spoken to differently? I mean, we're seeing more of that now, but there's definitely a space for this even in this day and age. So thank you for writing this book.
It's so, it's so needed and so appreciated.
Dr. Connie McReynolds
Well, thank you for allowing me to get the word out. Through your program here.
Hilary Russo
Oh Absolutely.
So I want to play a little game with you. If you have a moment, a little brain game, let's, let's see how your brain works.
This is my favorite part of the show. Uh, so I do a word association at the end of every episode and I've collected words that we've said in conversation. Most of them have come from you. And what I want you to do is just come back with the first word that comes to mind. Little word association. Let's see where Dr. Connie is. Alright, you ready?
Dr. Connie McReynolds
Sure, let's go.
Hilary Russo
Holistic.
Dr. Connie McReynolds
Healing.
Hilary Russo.
Behavior.
Dr. Connie McReynolds
Understanding.
Hilary Russo.
Brain.
Dr. Connie McReynolds
Powerful.
Hilary Russo.
Discord.
Dr. Connie McReynolds
Uncomfortable.
Hilary Russo.
Bullying.
Dr. Connie McReynolds
Sad.
Hilary Russo.
Neurofeedback.
Dr. Connie McReynolds
Brilliant.
Hilary Russo.
Attention.
Dr. Connie McReynolds
Focused.
Hilary Russo.
ADHD.
Dr. Connie McReynolds
Hmm. A lifeline to a different life.
Hilary Russo.
Hmm. Great. That is such a positive note and, and let that be, let that be a moment where we sit on that, that it could be the beginning of something new, new answers, a new possibility, right?
Dr. Connie McReynolds
Yeah.
Hilary Russo.
So if you could leave listeners with one thing, what would it be?
Dr. Connie McReynolds
There’s hope for a different future for anyone who has been diagnosed or struggling. With any kind of situation, there's hope you can make a change in your life and you can change it in a direction that works well for you.
Hilary Russo.
Beautiful. Thank you so much, Dr. Connie. This was really wonderful. I think I've learned something that I want to do differently and take some steps for myself. I definitely am going to take the assessment. You know, because I have questions as we all do. I mean, mainly having guests on the show is because my interest is piqued because I'm a human being living in this world, just like the rest of you, you know, so I hope that this conversation has touched, moved and inspired you.
If it has definitely leave a rating, a review, I'd Let me know how you think this conversation went, share your comments and let Dr. Connie know I'll absolutely share them with you as well. Download that free assessment, get a copy of the book Solving the ADHD Riddle and Say thank you to Dr. Connie for spending time with us.
So thank you. Dr. Connie. It's been a pleasure.
Dr. Connie McReynolds
Thank you for having me It's been a pleasure being here.
Hilary Russo.
Okay, my friend you have solutions and it starts with picking up. Dr Connie's book solving the ADHD riddle and while you're at it take Take that assessment. It is free. It's on our website. I will have all of the links to share with you in the listen notes.
So do not pass that by. And if you found that this episode is helpful in any way, consider passing it along to someone who may find it valuable too. You might help someone else where they were struggling and found a solution right here. So definitely pass it along. You can also leave a comment or review wherever you tune into this show.
HIListically Speaking is edited by to market media with music by lip bone reading and loved by you. So thank you. Thank you for keeping this mic on for yet another year. And remember this, you can train your brain, but first remember to be kind to your mind. I love you. I believe in you. And I will see you next week.
-
Picture this: your life as a harmonious masterpiece, with every aspect vibrating in sync with The Universe. Your home, the ultimate haven where serenity and balance reign supreme. Sounds dreamy, right?
But, where do you begin? Consider this episode your golden ticket to transformation, balance and harmony with guest Master Trainer of Feng Shui and Law of Attraction, Marie Diamond joins Hilary Russo on the HIListically Speaking Podcast.
Subscribe & like wherever you tune in so you never miss an episode.
Connect with Hilary:
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YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/hilaryrusso
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/hilisticallyspeaking
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TikTok: hhttps://www.tiktok.com/@hilisticallyspeaking
Website: https://www.hilaryrusso.com/podcast
Music by Lipbone Redding httphttps://lipbone.com
Marie also dives deep into listeners' questions, unraveling the mysteries of Feng Shui one query at a time. It's like having a cosmic consultant right in your earbuds, helping you curate a life that resonates with prosperity, love, and success.
Connect with Marie Diamond
mariediamond.com or on social media @mariediamondofficial
Grab Marie's latest book: Feng Shui Your Life:
https://amzn.to/4bt4PKN (Amazon)
Chapters:
0:00 Intro
1:50 What is Feng Shui
3:30 Marie's near death experience
5:35 Marie's introduction to Feng Shui
9:32 Feng Shui Your Life book
15:32 Working with the environment
16:30 Bringing in romance
18:20 How to Feng Shui your bedroom for love
22:20 Using the Diamond Compass
27:00 How to feng shui your office for success
35:30 How has Feng Shui worked for you?
37:00 Why decluttering is important for your chi & health
41:00 The importance of crystals
41:55 Marie answers listeners' questions
42:16 Personal direction. What is it?
45:00 Paintings in the bedroom
47:00 Vision board and success
48:45 Objects help! Marie and Stephen Spielberg
51:15 What if you don't like your home?
54:00 Colors in your home
55:55 Rapid fire game
58:15 Marie's words of wisdom
59:00 Hilary's closing thoughts
TRANSCRIPT
HILARY OK my friends as we know sometimes all it takes is a simple shift to make things look and feel better in our lives right? You adjust yourself all the time when you're sitting in a chair when your body's feeling uncomfortable and I'm constantly talking about the power of altering your thoughts your moods your behaviors your habits to find that calm in the chaos through Neuroscience . But what about your home what about your respite? That place that you come home to every day what if a simple positioning of a desk or removing a picture or even changing the color or moving a plant can add Fortune, health, love, wisdom and so much more into your life.
I wish I had Marie Diamond in my pocket to help when I was making shifts in my own life and in my own home but guess what she is here she is the most renowned feng shui master in the world you may recognize her from the global sensation The Secret or her Mind Valley class or just reading any of her amazing books and she's here now on HIListically Speaking to answer listeners questions and share more about her new book “Feng Shui Your Life a beginner's guide to using your home to attract the life of your dreams”.
Marie Marie. This is a gift having you here thank you so much for joining us on the show.
MARIE oh thank you so much Hilary it's it's such a pleasure to be here and all your listen listeners and viewers.
HILARY you are a gift in this area in so many areas I mean I know that you are a master of the Law of Attraction of f and I think what I want to do is really start out first by those who might not be familiar with Feng Shui if you can just share what that is and we'll go from there.
MARIE: Feng Shui is an energy system that you can compare with like acupuncture for the body so but this is like acupuncture for the home. So to create energy flow we're going to use colors, positioning of furniture to make sure we're in the right location in the landscape looking at what is inside the house of uh images um so everything around us is like I call it a three-dimensional vision board and so it's all affecting us on a subconscious level. And feng shui means literally wind and water. It's a Chinese system for more than 3,000 years and it really is creating flow and it's like connect with the energy the chi that we have and that's why wind and water are the two major elements that we're tapping into. That's why water is considered creating abundance and wind bread is creating life force and that's why we're using the compass directions to make that all happen so this this is such a spiritual journey too.
HILARY For those who might not be into the spiritual so much and I think we're seeing more people getting into that this is something that's very simple to do in your own home a simple adjustments in your own home that can create that flow right that chi in the home but for you I mean as a child you had mentioned that in your book you actually mentioned this that you had this kind of Awakening uh an experience a trauma in your own life that kind of was the beginning of all this can you elaborate on that?
MARIE yeah of course so I was 15 I was um living in Belgium in a Catholic Family and going from school to home um to have lunch I actually had um a major accident I was run over by a truck they declared me dead um and so I left my body and as they were trying to resuscitate me um I was in the ambulance and I saw my mother present there I saw the um ambulance guy and I still remember seeing them there and I was able to describe you know how this man looked like even if I was declared dead and so but I left my body completely I went to like a whole other dimension of spirit where people say going to the light and I saw beings of light. I was myself in like a light dress and I was giving the message like telepathically you have to go back and reach more than 500 million people and enlightened them now that was a message I was given to me I had no what that meant of course I was 15. I always say if that would be now I would probably start a Tik Tok account or start a podcast but at that time I had no idea what that meant right and so I already had some you know very advanced spiritual mentors around me because I was already meditating early age like when I was seven the first time. I remember and so when I was you know connecting with my spiritual mentors I was asking what did I do wrong to attract this because I was aware of the Law of attraction.
I was aware of visualization and I just knew that at that point I did not visualize that accident I did not visualize to die but I think it was part of my destiny to go to that experience and so my mentor said you have bad Feng Shui and that's the first time I heard this word. And when I heard that word I was like okay I need to research it so I went to libraries but you know to be honest in a Catholic country like Belgium there was no books on Feng Shui, so that is uh how he's kind of shared with me that I was in a wrong location in the house so I was in the north section of the house what is not lucky for me um based on my birthday. So I moved into the West area what is lucky for me I painted it colors that you know really resonated with me I changed the pictures around me and from being bullied at school no friends I start having a boyfriend I started having a lot of friends around me I became you know accepted by the community and I started practicing my work being part of a you know of service to the community to the church whatever I could to make a difference in my life that's how I started connect with that is an amazing awareness at such a young age.
HILARY in a country that you mentioned is so faith-based and also just the time you know even though this is a this has been around for thousands of years you know being able to embody something like that and feel comfortable doing that when you're surrounded by so much and so impressionable at that age that you want to fit in right and you mentioned being bullies bullied I can imagine that something in you was so much more powerful than the outside forces that made you want to say I have to make a change for me.
MARIE I really don't care what other people might think yeah you know I think I was very strong already in myself um I was very trusting into the messages were giving to me like as a child I really saw energy I saw people's chakras and fields I was like I was a Seer and my parents were aware of that if I would say something like this is going to happen or need to take care of this they were very open to that so that was like for them a gift of God so they were like not against my spiritual experiences what is of course was a gift in itself.
HILARY absolutely So Beautiful to know that you had that support too because sometimes again if you're not supported by your own parents who at that age you know you're still impressionable you're still trying to learn the best ways to be and grow into a well-rounded adult having that support from your parents and we're seeing that a lot now where we're seeing this next generation even of of uh children and young adults really finding who they are and being open and expressing it like you mentioned you know taking to the Tic Tok right yeah.
MARIE Of course and I love that that that's possible right now I mean I have myself three children my youngest is 20 I mean whatever they came forward with this is what I want to do in life we were totally supporting them as parents one you know became a musician the others is working on acting another was very creative with cars so it's like it doesn't matter as long as you know and listen to your child to move forward and you know you have to think that this was 45 years ago so in that time there was not such a high conscious yet an awareness of spirituality of energy but you know my parents were very open to that and they were like as much as I could be happy they would allow that to me yeah beautiful.
HILARY so for you coming into this world of Feng Shui and really embodying it and and there's so much that you're doing to make this easy for people because I remember like I mentioned when I moved into my place that I'm currently in now I didn't know anything about fun really I mean I hadn't tapped into it I knew about it but I knew it was energy I knew it was flow I knew that you know it was placement of things but I didn't really understand things like the bag map and mapping your home and the North and the South and East I didn't understand any of that and I did so much of that myself um in this home and I realized that it did create a better flow for me and more happiness and more joy and uh and that was just from self but you're making it so easy with folks with a beginner's guide which which amazes me Marie because you have so many books you've already written and you've already published and have already been a success how is The Beginner's Guide coming out now?
MARIE well you know it was one of the things that people um really asked me like what if Marie comes in your home with you right so a lot of the books I've written before are more towards people that have done online courses and have specific information they need about colors about the energy numbers um about leadership but it was like um when I connect with Hay House they asked me could you just um take them like you would be with them uh through the house from the beginning what would be the steps you know that I that I do with my clients and so I thought that was really a a good way to do this also because we are going much more mainstream now with this information with a a major um mainstream um television show and so and also because people are much more open now uh from all backgrounds to talk about energy that I felt I need to really bring out The Beginner's Guide before it was always they started online with me or they started in seminars or with other um ways to bring this the the first points of Feng Shui but I thought it would be a good way to start um because now you know I'm talking to all kinds of people um on radio on television and you know it doesn't matter anymore what is the background religiously or culturally people are interested to find out more energy in their home absolutely so important because really I mean your home is your respite and it's not just about finding happiness within your home we we I know we have some questions about this a little later but it's it's how can what you create in your own rest bit in your own home really amplify out into your own life correct it's just like it's one of the first things I learned uh from my grandmas that I started studying with when I was 30 years old um it was that there were three aspects to manifestation three aspects to what some people would call the law of attraction and that made completely sense to me and the first part is what we call your destiny like you're born into uh this world with some talents some gifts a purpose of life and of course you're born in a certain family certain culture and you don't always like what you're where you're born but you perhaps can make decisions and change into another country or so you have some decisions you can make from it but there's a purpose there's a plan somehow for your soul I do believe in that what people would call Karma and so he said that's one part of your manifestation that is your Beginnings your beginners start kit for manifestation and the second part is what do we do with that it's like what we call the human potential like uh we can have a change of mindset we can um you know change our Behavior we can change the actions we take so that's kind of a human part that of course in the self-development world we talk about and for example in the secret 99% of the teachers were focusing on that part but you know my function Master said that's only another third there the last third that is as important I think that's what the Chinese Masters for thousands of years really um figured out is that there's a whole system how to tap into manifest with your environment so where you live where you sleep where you work is subconsciously affecting you all the time and so we know that somehow because we go to places and we feel like oh this such a good vibe you want to keep hanging out there right and there's other places even your own home you're like oh I don't like it you just don't know what it is but there's something about that space right and you don't like to hang out there and so but you know you can change that because they have found their principles there's laws there are formulas um that we can really use to change that energy. Like I said it's like the Acupuncture of the home we can change the flow and then you like that space and you love hanging out there and on top of it it creates good energy for yourself and your family that's so important too because if you know I know there was one question we had that was focused on did not liking the home and it could also be that the relationship was not toxic as well so it needs you need to really do a hardcore uh sit back and really think about is it just the home is it the environment is what you're attracting into your own life too but what can you what do you have control of that you can change in order to manifest the life of your dreams yeah. And you know working with your environment is quite an easy thing to do because like changing your mindset you need a lot of discipline for it yeah you're taking actions every day and not procrastinate I mean that takes some willpower right um but if you change your desk or if you hang something different like once youve done it it's there. Of course you can keep updating it you know the images and the colors and whatever but it's a much easier system and the results are very fast so within nine days to nine weeks people really see a shift in their life.
HILARY Wow nine days to nine weeks people see a shift with just a shift in their home.
MARIE they'll see the shift in their lives and sometimes even sooner I had people that um you know I came into their house um or that they did the work and they like had a promotion with a week or they had like a check and unexpected money coming to them or they met somebody within a month so it is like it's really interesting it's like I feel a lot of people have the right mindset already they already have good Destiny but their environment is just not aligned with the goals and the destiny that they have and so it's like the home is telling a different story now I'm telling you the home is stronger than your willpower it's stronger than your mindset because it's there all the time 24 hours a day. So if you have for example you want to be um having romance but everywhere where you go and I was there in a house last week and this woman said I love strong women okay there were 30 images of women in her environment alone right so I said yeah you love strong women but do you want to stay alone that's the question she said no I want to get remarried and I said well let's bring out romance yeah so let's go of the images that where you look single even if it's just a symbol of a single woman and she was like Oh and it it really it hit home to her to like say is that what I really desired this is the story you're telling every time you open the door I even in the hallway there were five images of single women so you actually even coming in you tell all the men that are coming in get home get back you know I'm happy with being single here so it's not just you that it gives a subconscious me it gives a subconscious message to other people too that is incredible and something that I actually did in my own home I remember that because when I moved into the home I'm in now I was recently divorced out of a marriage and I thought I want to make this welcoming and I remember the one thing I read about feng shui is creating like two things like having the the love birds or the colors that you choose can matter or not just having one end table but having two and having that space open to put things in there for the partner that you desire there was so much of a shift for me I'm like oh I see and exactly what you're saying you know you can be an empowered woman and have a an object of a woman maybe in your bathroom where you want it to be an intimate space but that message you're putting out there not only into the universe you're also putting out there into anybody and and that is that.
HILARY I think that is one thing that a lot of people are wondering about that I've heard from people uh that have been checking in with this HIListically Speaking Podcast episode is how do I bring love into my life? And would you would that be a good
MARIE yeah that's a very good topic so the first place is always look at your bedroom right because that's the anchor place and like what you said make sure you have side tables on both sides make sure that people can go into the other side of the bed so don't put the bed against two walls so that you're like only come in from one side of the bed so must be symmetry left and right with two lamps two end tables for sure um also look at what uh hangs above your headboard yeah because what hangs above your headboard is like you go to sleep that's like the thing you see so make sure there's no water images there because water always drains the relationship even if it's a couple that is like they have this beautiful image of a couple um under an umbrella in the rain in Paris I'm telling you it's rain it's water you know is miserable you don't want to be there too long so something that shows love it can start with a heart it can start with the word love you can if you are in a relationship you can put an image of you and your partner but make sure it's a current picture not like from 20 years ago or 10 years ago always stay current with the pictures and then also look for colors that are matching and I always suggest Earth colors because Earth colors are more warmer and it kind of feels you more sheltered so like beiges Browns yellows peaches orange pinks are really good to have in your bedroom avoid green because when you having green we're thinking we're in nature and we our body doesn't sleep so well avoid too much blue because of the water and too much red so you can put like red pillows for example and now Valentine is coming up perfect time to get shopping to get red pillows like in a heart hard form put two of them on the bed if you want more passion right but don't paint everything in red because that's too much fire and then people get too much in conflict and then for sure when you're single and you have mirrors reflecting your bed it will tell you I'm doubling my loneliness so make sure you cover the mirrors or you put a screen in front of it at night or hang a curtain even a television can be a reflective um area so cover that at night and even if you're in a relationship cover it too because otherwise you're telling I'm doubling my partner and you get what we call the roving eyes so people are more interested to look to the other side or outside the marriage or the partnership.
HILARY that was a big one that I remember changing I'm like that mirror cannot be anywhere cutting through the bed or at least I can't see it right because sometimes I mean space matters too there you know I I know others like myself when you live in New York a lot of people rent a lot of people don't have the ability to say oh this bedroom has to be in the North side or the South Side you have to take what you can get and do the best you can so with that in mind um what if you can't you know what if the mirror can only be in that place like you said you just cover it at night?
MARIE yeah you cover it at night get a like a partition or a screen and put it there and then during the day you can literally fold it together or you can hang curtain so that you can just close again over the mirrors and then on top of it you know because I work with personal fun based on your birthday and so that means that you need to look at you know and that's something you learn in the fun your life book but you also can go and connect in with my free app and so it's called Marie Diamond’s you can go to the app store and then in the app you will actually get um to put in your birthday and and your Birth, gender because it's connected with your birth DNA and it creates an energy profile and the energy profile gives you a number between one and nine and then based on that number there is a relationship direction that is a compass direction that works for you your whole life to create good relationships and so you will see you will get uh like an app and you will get a Diamond Compass and your Diamond Compass is related with your birthday and so mine for example is West yeah so I don't know what it is for you but it could be East or south or Southeast so what people do they have the app they hold the app in front of them on the level of the heart in the center of the bedroom and then you see where is your relationship Direction in my relationship Direction. I have a picture of my husband and me and we do that for the last 30 years and we 33 years together right so it definitely works but I also put in his relationship Direction because for him it's different his is Northeast. So I put a picture of us together in his relationship Direction in the bedroom and so that is something I've been practicing but also make sure there's no clutter in that area or there are images that are connected with love no single um no images with single men or women on it you cannot do that so and that is something that is very personal it is beyond the Bagua system this is more advanced feng shui. But it's something that everybody can practice and you can use that in every space so you can use your compass. Stand in the center of your living room for example in the center of my living room and and I look where is the for me my relationship Direction I have a picture there with me and my husband but also with my children because I don't bring my children in my bedroom because you know that's my personal romantic space yeah because I seen too many times people put too many pictures of their children in their bedroom and then they don't attract the partner because you need to focus on one place for your romance but in your living room your family room in your relationship Direction you can put your extended family your friends I mean anyone that you want in your life.
HILARY I love that I actually downloaded the app I'm and I did the personal number as well and that's a really important question.
MARIE I want to touch on that real quick but just to reiterate what you said whatever your husband or what your direction is what if if your husband's is Northwest in that Northwest area you put what Vibes with him correct is that what you're saying yes I would I would do that because you know and I let him choose the picture also that he loves about us right not just I'm deciding you know I like hey these are the picture sweetheart that we have which one do you really love about us right so he had like um made that like a glass where there's like you see my picture and his picture like engraved in it he loves that one I have to be honest I don't like I don't like that one but it's his relationship so he has a choice to put it there and it's you respecting that person's choice right knowing that it could it can bring more love and compatibility and happiness it needs to resonate you know it need to resonate with that person so and that is a really fun for special women sometimes saying I don't know if my husband will be open to that I'm telling you people love the energy number and just invite them and you can even in the free version of the app you can check out the numbers of somebody else and then of course you need to share it with them because they need to get it on their phone to get the profile because it's very personal and know they love it and even for the children in their own bedroom you know for children focus on their bedroom that's the whole uh point because that's their anchor space and so like in their relationship Direction make sure there's a picture of you with them right so or with their siblings so there there's this message conscious subconsciously like hey I am in that family because sometimes they put pictures of their idols and their their favorite singers all over and but I would say keep a picture of the family in their relationship and I'm telling you you get better along with your children love that bringing that back into the family values as well and and teaching your children the simple tools of how to create a safe space for themselves something.
HILARY I love that I didn't even think about the children aspect but thank you for sharing. Tthat so love is a big area I would imagine another thing is always Finance finances everyone's like wants to make more wants to do more wants to be more wants success so what would be simple tips and tools you can share with folks about that so the first step.
MARIE I always say uh you know when you're working and that can be online can be in person uh can be that you have a Works Space or you're working on your dining room area that make sure that you always see the door of the room that you're coming in so I'm like right now in my office I see the door. Even if I'm talking to you it's in my peripheral view so the door cannot be behind you the door cannot be on the side so you have to like turn yourself to see it yeah so we call that the power position why is it important. Because we have seen through tests that when people are facing in such a way that they see the door that they are spiking into Alpha brain waves when we go into Alpha we're more creative we're more solution driven we see the future when you're sitting with your back to the door like say you have your desk against the wall and the door is behind you you spike up faster into beta brain waves that means you're more focused towards the past. You're more focused on to worries and fears and you don't see the opportunities coming to you and so especially when you are um then also facing the wall then you will start procrastinating more you will have the feeling that you're hitting a financial wall or a creative wall so think about a queen a King a president of the United States they don't sit with their death against the wall yeah so they always sets up that they can have somebody sitting on the other side of their desk even if there's nobody there.
I mean you're here right now with me Hilary and all the viewers but there's space on the other side for them and I see the door so this is really powerful and that shifts so many things I've seen people that really felt not appreciated in their job by changing that around that they have appreciated got bonuses got raises got promotions just by doing this simple trick right sitting up in your power position but any meeting you have like you go to a meeting on a conference room you go in a meeting I don't know in your local store or local um coffee shop to see clients always make sure you're earlier and that you set yourself up you can see the door walking them in you are then the queen or the king of your business that's yeah so it's an easy to change change in your desk. and I remember this man and he was a real estate agent and he called me and said Marie I am really ready to call in chapter 11 that means you know going in failure and I said tell me what's going on and he said well I'm he show me this floor plan I said just change your desk just you know just do that he said but that's really difficult and said you know it's a one-time thing change your desk right so he changed his desk and he called me six months later and he had made 11 100% more income and so it's just because he he was in connection with his clients because his clients would come in and sit next to him but they were actually in control of the negotiations so he now is in in control of the negotiations, So that's the first thing the second thing I would suggest is to also check again your your app you actually have what we call your success direction so when you look to the app you'll see it's a royal blue uh in Direction and so the royal blue you hold it in the center of your office or the place where you work and there you see what is in that direction. Like for me it's Southwest now Southwest is really behind me so you don't have to look at it but it's behind me and there I have my books I have my Awards I also have there you can't see it but because it's in the cabinet I have my bank statement I have my contracts you know I have all important things that are connect with my business yeah so something that resonates with you so you say perhaps well I don't have anything yet but I'm sure you have a book on success or you can order easy a book on leadership right or perhaps you have certificates that you have from from school or something you studied you can hang that there always add some gold to it because gold is the color of abundance and even on your desk put some items in Gold like literally I have like a gold part with where I put things up so the more you put some gold looking items it does not to be real gold of course brain doesn't make a difference if it's real gold or fake gold it doesn't make the difference so just having some of that around you will actually activate your success energy it's just the little things.
HILARY I imagine there are a lot of people that and I'm one of them that you putting the desk against the wall because you might have limited space I mean what would be your suggestion for someone that really doesn't have that possibility of having a desk because it you need the space you know you need space.
MARIE so the first thing I would suggest make sure you have a good high back chair with armrests yeah so you feel like at least you are supported and then make sure the high back chair is as high as your neck yeah good so that is like this is supported so you can lean so everything feels supported the second thing you can do is put a little mirror like left or right on the wall so that in the mirror you can see in a glimpse of a second who is behind you who's coming through the door yeah that's the second thing I would do and then in front of you I would suggest to put like um quotes or images that really inspire you yeah could be pictures of of your loved ones like so it feels like people are coming towards you like something is inspiring so and if you can try also to face a good direction in that case yeah so again with your app you can literally hold your app and hold it in front of you like I am facing my wisdom Direction what is excellent because I'm teaching the whole day yeah so I'm educating people but if you also can then look at so look towards a good direction even if it's on the wall then you will add 10% of good luck in finances oh my goodness 10% is a lot to put on the table
HILARY wow Marie that is amazing this is so exciting I can't wait to play with the app more I don't think I've given it enough attention and listen everyone that app is free to download on marad diamond.com I'm going to put that in the HIListically SPeaking podcast notes so that you know it's there uh she also has uh a number of other things that you offer you have your master class that's free on your website as well so there are so many opportunities to get in touch with Marie and have Marie in your own pocket but also I highly recommend and we'll mention this again because she's talking a lot about what's in the book feng shui your life this is a beginner's guide to using your home to attract the life of your dreams. You can do this I've been looking through this book I cannot wait I I can read this again and again because there's things you're going to come back to what do I want to do in my my bedroom what do I want to do in my office what do I want to do in my living room my kitchen and just in your home and all areas of your life is right here in the book and it's so easy to read and you have the personal numbers in here as well I noticed that so you can find your personal number
you can play around with it you can do this you know this could be a family thing or a partner thing as well which I love and and a great gift actually for friends and family that are perhaps stuck somehow in their life right now and they really want to move into a better place or a lot of people that have been using the love attraction and feel like they really haven't gotten the results because they were missing out on that last part of the law of attraction that is your environment so a lot of people can use this and every home you go to this is like your go to place uh go to book to really start
HILARY yes absolutely and I want I want to also mention that if you've been tuning into Marie's work in the past if you've done any of the feng sh if you followed her let me know share it in the comments uh leave me a leave leave a rating a review and say that this this episode has touch moved and inspired you and some way some way wherever you're listening whether it's through a podcast platform or whether it is on YouTube or you can also leave a message a personal message of how feng shui has changed your life by going to speakpipe.com / hilistically speaking and record your voice press record and let me know what you think about this episode how Marie has touch moved and inspired you and just how Hilistically Speaking has touch moved and inspired you especially as we're moving in this new year there's so many small little things you can do to make a huge difference in your life what did you say nine days to nine weeks . Marie that's amazing.
MARIE yeah another area that fast it goes that fast yes I love that that's so fast that is just it's like two months at most you know and as little as a week so it's the little shifts that make the big changes right so you see the Small Things First the other area people are certainly paying more attention to these days especially in the holistic way of living is their health and I know that is a huge part of feng shui. You know it's really interesting because feng shui was first focused towards health so because you know thousands of years ago having longevity was crucial first of all for your family for um thriving in society if you did not have a health because you know people died much earlier than in today's world so the first Focus was always how the chi of your environment would really affect your health and so I always say the first step I would go and focus on is decluttering is making sure you create space because everything we have creates a heaviness creates uh takes space literally around us and especially in the bedroom you know declutter um anytime you open your your drawers your cabinets it let go of at least 10 to 20% if you feel your health is not doing well by releasing that that will be very helpful and so and then give it away you know just don't store it again in another storage place but give it away and there's a lot of people that could use some of what you have and then of course also in your um in your personal energy number you do have when you look at the compass you do have a health Direction yeah so the health direction is again a personal place a personal portal of energy towards the universe so I remember that I placed before I knew fun right I did have this image of this um woman you know imitation like quite round and full and she was nude right so I did have that in my relation in my health Direction so you know I was actually telling subconsciously it's okay to gain weight yeah because and so and one day I knew all about the personal energy number I was like oh my god I've been giving myself permission to gain weight right and so I took that away I put that in the hallway it's not in a place where you are not living sleeping working right that's kind of three to five hours a day. If you're in a room in that long it will affect you um but in a whole way that's fine and so I start putting there my yoga mat I put there my vitamin supplements I had like an image of myself looking really fit and happy and I started having more encouragement yeah to really get going because I was a little procrastinating on doing the right exercises before right and then it kind of gave me that permission yeah to do that and so that is something that's very helpful also for health if you have health issues check out your plants you know and um especially if you have a lot of spiky plants or plants with spiky leaves that will actually affect your nervous system and your wellbeing so try to avoid them.
I would always suggest no plants in the bedroom except if they're fake and I know some people say well there are some plants that give you oxygen it's just energetically it's better but also where you sitting. I had somebody that had all the time uh you know coughing and flu but next to his uh office desk he had this huge um a huge plant that was all with spiky leaves so we moved that away and he became much healthier because he was like you know attacking his energy in his Aura field so be careful about that you also can check in with putting more crystals in good directions yeah crystals are really good for your health so if go with crystals that resonate with you and we have a whole chapter on crystals in the feng shui your life because it's something it's an Earth element and if you have lack of Health that means you have lack of Earth so putting some crystals around you will affect you and there's specific places again you can put certain crystals to activate your energy.
HILARY the fact that you have a whole chapter and that's chapter 14 on the crystals is is so important because I know that people and I'm one of them when I was getting more into the crystals you really you might be attracted to the color of the Crystal but do you really know what the energy is that that Crystal is bringing into your home and where to put it and how to how to use those crystals for good so the fact that you chose some of the best crystals well you see you have like one two three you have about 10 different crystals here that are really the most popular crystals that people use in their home and I appreciate you defining them so this book really covers everything and makes it so simple to feng shui your life perfect title from every area and these are you know the most important areas in our lives that we need to take care of it all comes back like you said to Health First when you have health you have wealth in other areas as well so can we take some questions?
MARIE yes yes oh let's take some.
HILARY we got some good ones Marie and these folks love you so I'm just going to put them out there and then we'll just go with them but the first one we're going to go with is from Masha. She's from Iran and she said should personal directions or direction of each year be taken into account and for those who don't understand what personal direction is maybe we can explain that first.
MARIE yeah so your personal direction again is based on your energy number so based on your birthday you have four directions that are very strong for you and directions always to do with the wi interactions so the compass directions there eight Compass directions that we can tap into so every year we do have an adjustment sometimes that we need to do for the Chinese New Year so we have the new Chinese New Year coming up the wood and dragon year and every year there is um there are some directions that are stronger for you than others so I'm going to for example go more general not based on your birthday the best place to create cash cash flow for this year in 2024 is actually to put a bubbling fountain in the east of your living room or your office because that is where the cash flow energy of the wooden dragon is located this year now if East is one of your good directions that will give you extra stimulus um because East is a good energy so if East is your success Direction you will have a lot of new beginnings a lot of new income stre dream coming your way but even if East is not one of your good direction you can still stimulate the cash flow by putting a bubbling fountain in the east in the areas where you are not sleeping that's so great and are we we're not just talking the office or we are yeah office a living room or family room I would say one place is enough to activate like for me it will be in my uh my office because I love having a fountain there we try to avoid it not to have it in the bedroom because it's too much water energy and that's disturbing for people and it's just the East wall of each room we're talking wall or the east corner depending how where the East is of course your your space so he always stands in the center and then look where that direction is so there are some adjustments for each year like last year in 2023 uh the fountain had to be in the southwest so and that is something when people go to the website and they go for the uh course feng shui 2024 so we each year we give an update where to place um all this um I would say crystals or fountains to activate the year of uh the the Chinese New Year.
HILARY wonderful so Masha I hope that answered your question thank you so much for thank you so much for submitting appreciate that. Okay Sarah is next she's in Sydney Australia and her question is when attracting love is it best to have a painting above your bed we mentioned not having water above your bed but is it best to have a painting and I guess we've already kind of answered this.
MARIE she said full of many hearts or is it just two hearts well I would we kind of touched on that yeah but I I like the the question though because you know if you do a lot of Hearts then it's like you're inviting a lot of people in right so I always suggest two hearts or like one big heart right um and the best than color is pink rose fuchsia um red if you like red um so gold you can also work you know um so I have like uh because my husband I are already so long together I actually have one big pink heart yeah.
HILARY I love that that's a great question Sarah thank you so much and hopefully some of the tips that Marie gave a little earlier in this conversation will help you with that area as well. since we touched on love. Okay this is coming from London this is Moni and she says she's trying to actually believe this this is this is very specific so this is why I left this in here she wants to create more Financial Freedom in her life but she's also trying to get a Visa okay well you know.
MARIE I I have just done that myself I just got the new visa to live for a couple of years in the US so what I did is I put a picture of uh the US government like it could be the because if you want to get a visa on their specific departments right that you work with so I put a a picture of that logo in a gold looking frame in My Success Direction I also put a flag of the US in uh there so if for you it's the UK then put a flag of the UK and look up which department is connect with immigration and put a logo of that there and then of course I had it also on my vision board and when you have a vision board put it in your success Direction um and you can do it in your bedroom can be in your office you know some people do not like it in their living room because too many people are coming there um but having it in your success direction of course I put there on my vision board like literally I am always say the words I am because that's wrong energy I am receiving um my um this kind of Visa or for immigration to this country so I did that hey it worked.
HILARY oh I love that so this is going so much into the art of manifestation and Law of Attraction what you put out there right treat it like it's already there is is really it's giving people the visual here and now and now so the beautiful part about this is that Moni also asked about her son so this could really come in handy with her son Oliver she said her son Oliver wants to be an academy award-winning actor how could she help him do that and I think you kind of just explained it maybe having a picture of a statue?
MARIE I have more than 20 Oscar winning clients so I'm telling you it really works you know I had some clients that um never had an Oscar and then you know they put a fake Oscar out fake Oscar statue in their success of action you have have to put your name on it like you put a label on it or you engrave it I mean there are uh there are service that do that and then put in also on it for what it is yeah so if it's producer actor best acting role you know just put something very specific right so I put my oscar statue out in 2001 now at that time I'm not an actor I'm not a producer whatever right but I put it out there there because I put on my vision board that was going to be in a movie seen by millions of people that would transform the world and as a symbol the Oscar was a symbol I resonated with now interesting enough within a month I got my first Oscar winning clients right and it's only five years later I got into the secret yeah but meanwhile I already had five Oscar winning clients and one day I was just so clear that I always one I always got to people that had one Oscar that I put two more Oscars out I put three Oscars out and within a week step Spielberg his family called me to do all their houses and at that point he had won three Oscars.
HILARY this is incredible this is incredible uh Moni, Oliver are you listening because I have we we obviously have some information that so if we see Oliver with an Oscar down the line don't forget don't forget HIListically Speaking and don't forget Marie Diamond in your in your acceptance speech. That's incredible so and that's the that's the thing like it you know what is the saying if you want to make God laugh tell them your plans like maybe you were putting the Oscar out there but something else in regards to the Oscar came into your life right many times over right so I love oh that is incredible. You don't always know what the plan is right so never thought at that moment I didn't even have a visualization.
MARIE I didn't have a goal that I would attract Oscar winning clients yeah and of course I am in you know many houses where they really have Oscars and the Emmys and the Grammys and so now the first thing I always say I put them in their success of action so they can have more of it yeah um or the anything that they want to desire your success direction is crucial and the success direction will come up on the app app to tell you where the success direction is in that specific room you're in correct yes
HILARY perfect love it love it okay Ivana’s question from Washington State she's trying to create a new life for herself and the energy of the people might not be the best in the life that she has and she does not like the house that she's in like the house period she's not happy in the house how can we help Ivana.
MARIE I would say the first thing um would ask her to decl and let go of things that of people that perhaps in the past or even in the present are still around her you know it could be books that they have given them it could be letters it could be photos of people it just it's better to let go of things and and have nothing and then fill it back up with something new so that's the first thing I would suggest the second thing I would love for her to check out her relationship Direction. Because if she doesn't like the people around her there's something wrong with her relationship Direction yeah perhaps she has the wrong message there you know. I remember this woman and she had the same situation but in her relationship Direction was an image that was very abstract it was like old strange forms so when you looked at it it was kind of chaotic so the people she attracted were chaotic people yeah and so I answered to take that away and I said you know there are some images of like. For example friends or you have like the ceramic Friendship Circle that you can put there um or you just um put like um the globe there like a globe is always you know connecting with Humanity like you're open to to meet all the people that you need so that is something she can play with when you don't feel really good in your home definitely check out the feng shui your life book because there are so many aspects to it but especially if you don't have enough Joy enough happiness in the house start adding orange so orange pillows orange candles um in the living room in your family room just orange gives always a feeling in our mind of coming home being happy being joyful yeah so do that and I would definitely suggest for her to do some space clearing we have some space clearing tips one of them is lavender Mist so start spraying lavender Mist regularly in your house to release the heavy that is there because I can tap into that house and I feel a lot of heaviness there yeah the misting and the essential oils I use that in my house all the time and it just changes so much how this it's not just an aroma or smell it actually does have a medicinal effect on your body so this is additionally.
HILARY so does the wild orange so Orange has that as well so very important orange is good too yeah and you mentioned colors so we're going to go into the next question this is our last question and and that is from Leah she's in Peterboro England and she says what colors should a sofa or an armchair be in the bedroom you kind of touched on this too.
MARIE but let's get specific with the actual piece of furniture yeah so like I said in a bedroom I would first focus on Earth Tones so it's like beiges Browns but you also can go with metal tones so there will be like whites Silvers Golds Grays copper or actually really good in the bedroom you know if you would think like oh I want more love I want to do a pink sofa that would be great um I would not do a red sofa that's again too much red um in a bedroom so if you want to work more with red in Furniture go and put that more in a dining room or a living room or a family room where you're active yeah where you're moving around all the time so too much red when you're sleeping is not uh suggested or maybe even like a metal tone with the throat like a pillow like I have this this this pinkish pillow with the Grays I mean it's that inviting.
HILARY thank you wonderful these are such amazing questions thank you to everyone that submitted. What a what a joy is to have you Marie the last thing I want to do before we go and one more time I just want to mention fun your life is available this book just came out not too long ago start here if you have never done feng shui before and thenit you can do is like graduate to the other books that Marie has in her Library you can also download the apps that she has that does the entire like there's so much that you you are you're so giving you have so much to offer for free so I'm going to put that in the podcast notes the book also how to get in touch with Marie on our website and how to download the app and the master class and everything else that you offer so graciously.
Before we go I love to play a little game with my guests and basically this is a little word association I've been collecting words that we've been talking about and things that you've said and I'm just going to throw out one word and then what I would love for you to do is come back with the first word that comes to mind okay. A little fun.
MARIE Okay.
HILARY here we go clutter.
MARIE um release.
HILARY manifestation.
MARIE power.
HILARY energy
MARIE I didn't hear that.
HILARY energy.
MARIE love.
HILARY spiritual.
MARIE peace
HILARY water
MARIE abundance
HILARY wind
MARIE wind calmness
HILARY environment
MARIE support
HILARY passion
MARIE I didn't hear that last word
HILARY I'm sorry passion.
MARIE oh passion um myself .
HILARY I love that Joy.
MARIE um my daughter.
HILARY and one more because this is my word of the Year and that really everything you're saying just makes me think about it…balance.
MARIE your home.
HILARY you're giving me so much Rocket Fuel to make changes in my home now that I've been here a number of years and look I understand to those listening not everybody owns their home or can can design their home and Steven Spielberg and can and make all these adjustments before the home is built but you can take small steps to make big changes in your life that you'll see down the line like Marie said within 9 days to nine weeks small little shifts can make a difference and you'll see it and I would love to know if you do let me know you know definitely share your experience with me Marie. Thank you so much this has been such a joy you are gift you're a gift in this world of spiritual healing and I couldn't be more just to have you here today I'm HIListically Speaking.
MARIE Thank you so much for having me here and allowing me to share my wisdom with so many of your followers
HILARY If you have any words of wisdom if you have final words what would that be?
MARIE well my last words would be here is that just start practicing feng shui to really attract you know what you desire in life it worked for me from starting in a small Studio you know 30 years ago to living now in a beautiful mansion in Belaire so it really has created an amazing life for me abundantly but also amazing family life and so I wish that all for all of you thank you .
HILARY thank you so much for your wishes and your gift you are a gift.
HILARY all right my friends if you have not downloaded Marie's app to find out your best Direction your diamond Compass answers to how you can position yourself in your life and how you can use fun in your home the time is now or even check out her master class she has a free master class I shared that link all of the links are available on her website which I shared in the podcast notes and if you are ready for it I'm telling you the time is now grab a copy of Marie's book feng shui your life it is a beginner's guide but it is chalk full of things you can do in the everyday it is a simple approach to changing things in your life to make your entire Journey for the best I'm telling you it's a great guide to go along with the app with the compass also just uh to refer back to when you need it if you're making a change in one room and then in another refer back to this book it is a great guide to have in your everyday life and tell us how you are feng shui your life I would love to know you can leave a rating a review on any of the podcast platforms you tune in including YouTube tell us what you're doing with your feng shui journey how are you making small changes that are affecting your life in a big way you can even take it one step further and go to speakpipe dot com slash hilistically speaking and leave a voice message and I might share that message on a future episode of this show.
I am so grateful to see that we have listeners expanding around the world more listeners from more countries are tuning into to this podcast day after day and all I can say to that is I am so grateful for you for tuning in thank you thank you for pressing play and on that note I'm sending so much success and fun have fun with your feng shui journey definitely let me know how it's going for you because you deserve to live the life of your dreams I love you I believe in you and I will see you next week be well.
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Oprah called her Godmother of the full-figured woman for good reason. As a woman with curves, Supermodel Emme faced challenges and criticism but stood undeterred.
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