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What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Steven Aldrich, Co-CEO and Co-Founder at Ragnarok NYC.
Summary: Like the aftermath of Ragnarök according to Norse mythology, the martech world is emerging stronger, more focused, and ripe with potential. Rather than being overwhelmed by the chaos, marketers should use this time to rethink how to evaluate technology choices through the lens of business value. Prioritize platforms that drive real-world impact and avoid getting lured by features that blaze brightly for a moment, only to be swallowed by the tide of irrelevance.
About Steven
Steven’s first job out of business school was a customs broker in Colombia, before his Visa ran out and he was forced to return to the US He started his marketing career as a Marketing and Comms Associate at a market research firm where he discovered the wonders of HTML, email development and Adobe dreamweaverWhile continuing his full time in-house career working in email and CRM roles for different industries, Steven and his co-founder Spencer launched Ragnarok, first as a side hustle where they spent their evenings moonlighting as marketing technology consultantsIn 2017, both co-founders decided to take the leap and go all in on their agencyToday Ragnarok is a 50+ person full service martech agency that’s helped well known brands like zapier, dropbox, asana, adobe and many more!
The Evolution of Martech and the Impact of ConsolidationWhen asked about the future of martech, Steven immediately highlighted the ongoing consolidation in the industry. He pointed to acquisitions like Twilio snapping up Segment and Salesforce expanding its Customer Data Platform (CDP) offerings as clear signals. According to Steven, these moves indicate that we’re in the midst of a reshuffling phase—one that will shape how martech platforms are built and used over the next decade.
However, it’s not just about merging and acquisitions. Steven sees the next wave of growth stemming from generative AI. This technology, while still in its infancy for many organizations, will soon be as fundamental as marketing automation tools were a decade ago. Platforms are experimenting with Gen AI features like automated content creation, but they’re still scratching the surface. “Right now, a marketer isn’t likely to sit down and have their AI tool write an entire creative brief,” Steven noted. “But once the tech reaches a level where it’s drafting briefs and campaign strategies, it’ll fundamentally change what marketers do day-to-day.”
He also predicts that the next few years will separate the genuine innovators from the rest. Startups focusing on AI-powered automation and advanced integrations will emerge as key players. Those that fail to embrace this trend will struggle to maintain relevance. Steven pointed to companies like Castle.io as an example—a newer entrant that has managed to make a name for itself by rethinking traditional automation and going all-in on a warehouse-first approach.
Looking ahead, Steven envisions a future where marketers become more like strategic curators rather than operators. Instead of creating every campaign element manually, marketers will outline goals and high-level structures, and let the tools figure out the rest. “Think of a platform where you set your conversion goals, outline your audience, and the tool builds the journey for you,” he explained. Some companies are testing these capabilities internally, but we’re still far from a world where it’s the norm. To reach that stage, platforms need to overcome significant technical challenges and gain marketer trust.
Ultimately, Steven believes that by the ten-year mark, the martech industry will look entirely different. The focus will shift away from basic integrations and automation to more complex AI-driven orchestration. Platforms will evolve into decision-making engines, allowing marketers to focus on strategy, creativity, and innovation, leaving the grunt work to the machines.
Key takeaway: The martech industry is undergoing a consolidation phase as it readies itself for the next wave of innovation: generative AI. Startups that embrace AI-driven automation will emerge stronger, while legacy platforms must integrate these new capabilities or risk becoming obsolete. In the next decade, marketers will transition from hands-on campaign execution to strategic oversight, as tools handle more of the complex work autonomously.
Blending Automation with Human Spark for Smarter Martech StrategiesWhen it comes to AI and automation in martech, there’s a spectrum of opinions. On one end, some marketers insist that only a human can truly understand and engage their audience. On the other end, there’s a growing camp eager to hand over the repetitive tasks to machines and focus on strategy. Steven pointed out that the real value lies in finding a balance between the two extremes, especially for industries with strict compliance requirements like FinTech and health tech.
Steven used abandoned cart programs as a foundational example of automation’s role in marketing. Not long ago, these campaigns were inconsistent and cumbersome. Companies like Klaviyo and Shopify stepped in, making abandoned cart emails table stakes for eCommerce. Now, if you abandon your cart, you can almost predict when you’ll receive that follow-up email offering a discount or reminder. “It’s just expected,” Steven explained. He believes this kind of automated functionality has become the baseline for what customers and marketers alike view as the norm.
But not every industry can afford to automate at that level. With sectors like finance or healthcare, there’s a need for humans to review and validate messages for compliance. “A legal person is at the end of every review,” Steven said. “It’s frustrating and time-consuming, but the cost of sending the wrong message at the wrong time is just too high.” He sees these industries gradually adopting AI where they can—incremental optimization, message testing—but keeping a human in the loop for quality assurance.
The evolution of martech, in Steven’s view, will be about advancing beyond these early stages. He predicts that the future will bring a seamless integration where humans set high-level goals, and AI takes care of execution. The role of the marketer shifts from managing individual campaigns to curating experiences and setting strategic parameters. Some platforms are already testing these capabilities, but they’re far from ready for mainstream adoption. “Imagine a future where marketers simply set their audience, goals, and content, and the tool builds the entire journey for them,” Steven envisioned. This approach would redefine what it means to be a marketing operator, giving professionals more time to think strategically rather than tactically.
Ultimately, Steven sees the evolution of martech as an interplay between speed and quality. Some companies will succeed by automating faster, launching multiple initiatives, and iterating based on outcomes. Others will opt for a more deliberate approach, spending more time crafting the perfect message. “There isn’t one clear winner,” Steven concluded. “It’s about choosing the right tool for the job and understanding what’s at stake when the human element is minimized.”
Key takeaway: Martech’s future lies in balancing automation with human oversight. While some industries can embrace full-scale automation, others need humans in the loop to maintain compliance and quality. Marketers must choose tools that fit their strategic goals—whether that’s rapid iteration or precision crafting.
The Value of Data Science in Martech OptimizationWhen asked about the role of data science in marketing operations, Steven was quick to point out the di...
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What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Danny Lambert, Director of Marketing Operations at dbt Labs.
Summary: Marketers often feel like they're battling a dragon when it comes to integrating data. We’re overwhelmed by technical jargon, stuck with outdated methods, and facing roadblocks from data teams. Danny walks us through his journey of cautiously entering the data world and the role dbt can play for marketing teams. By learning just enough SQL, knowing what tools you need to get started with and leaning on dbt’s tools, you can start small and gradually build a warehouse-first martech stack. The reward is more control over your data, flexibility to deploy personalized campaigns independently, and a competitive edge that no pre-packaged solution can match.
About Daniel
Danny started his career at an event solutions company where he wore several different marketing hats including getting his first taste of marketing automation He then worked in marketing ops at IZEA, at marketplace that connects brands with influencers before having a short stint at McGaw.io one of the leading martech and analytics agenciesHe then moved over to healtech at CareCloud where he led Demandgen and ABMHe then transitioned to Rev.com the popular transcription company where he started in marketing ops, then demand gen before being promoted to Director of Integrated MarketingAnd today Dan is Director of Marketing Operations at dbt Labs, the creators of the most popular software for data transformation used by data engineers at more than 20k companies
Navigating the Disconnect Between Marketers and Data TeamsMany marketers struggle to engage with data teams because they feel worlds apart. Danny points out that it’s a lot like the early days of marketing’s relationship with product teams. Before product-led growth (PLG) became a buzzword, marketers and product teams operated in separate silos. It took a concerted effort to break that wall, and the same shift is needed with data. Marketers often find the mechanics of data engineering and warehousing intimidating, and for good reason—they weren’t trained for it. But it doesn’t have to be that way.
Danny recounts his time at CareCloud, where he was exposed to the concept of a data warehouse. The idea was gaining traction, and he attended a Snowflake event to grasp the essentials. After an hour of slides and schemas, he walked out just as confused as when he walked in. The issue wasn’t the information; it was the delivery. Marketers need to see things in action. Theoretical talks don’t cut it—practical, straightforward tutorials that walk you through the steps are what marketers crave. Installing tools like dbt and seeing data move can make it all click. It’s the difference between hearing about a new tool and actually feeling it work in your hands.
There’s also a major gap in educational resources that cater to marketers. As Danny highlights, marketing professionals who want to embrace data often get lost in the flood of courses and jargon-heavy materials. It’s a jungle out there—marketers want concise, actionable guidance, not a deep dive into tech theory. Without the right content, many opt to stay in their lane, using tools and methods they already know. It feels safer, especially when they’re under pressure to perform quickly.
Danny points out that this pressure to ramp up fast can discourage experimentation with a warehouse-first approach. New roles often come with tight timelines, and there’s a tendency to lean on old habits. Shifting to something like data warehousing means slowing down, learning the ropes, and building enough belief in the new approach to back it up internally. But if you’ve spent years doing things differently, it’s hard to develop the conviction needed to push for change. Confidence comes from exposure and understanding, but without that, the warehouse-first idea feels too foreign to champion.
Key takeaway: Marketers often shy away from data teams because they lack practical, accessible education and feel pressured to stick with familiar methods. Building confidence through hands-on learning and real-world examples is crucial for integrating data and marketing in a meaningful way.
Overcoming Barriers to Data Literacy in MarketingMany marketers hesitate to engage deeply with data, often because they don’t see it as central to their roles. Danny explains that for most, data feels like a secondary tool—something meant to assist rather than dominate their day-to-day work. The challenge is that the pathway to becoming data-savvy isn’t straightforward. Even among those who’ve made the leap, each person’s journey looks different. Some take online courses, like those on Codecademy, learning SQL from scratch. Others find mentors who guide them through the maze of data management, or they happen to work in environments where they can lean on a data specialist nearby. But there’s no universal roadmap, which makes the process feel daunting.
Danny believes that the lack of a clear, predictable path to mastering data is one of the biggest hurdles marketers face. With so many options available—some technical, others more hands-on—marketers often struggle to identify which approach will actually get them the skills they need. For those with limited time, this uncertainty can be a dealbreaker. Without knowing if the investment will pay off, it’s easier to focus on other areas of marketing that feel more familiar and essential. Danny points out that while resources like Udemy are improving the situation, marketers still need a straightforward, reliable way to become proficient in data.
Another critical factor is the perceived opportunity cost. Marketers are often juggling multiple responsibilities, from staying up-to-date with industry trends to managing campaigns. For many, the idea of dedicating time to learning data—an area they may feel they have minimal expertise in—feels like too large a barrier. Why spend time learning about data warehousing when there are immediate, pressing marketing concepts to master? This fear of committing time and energy to an unfamiliar, complex area keeps many from taking the first step.
Danny emphasizes that while the accessibility of learning tools is improving, there’s still a significant gap. Even for those who want to upskill, the fear of the unknown and the lack of a guided pathway can make it feel like an insurmountable challenge. Until marketers can see a clear, accessible way to develop these skills, many will remain hesitant to dive into data, choosing to stick to familiar ground instead.
Key takeaway: Marketers often shy away from learning data skills due to a lack of accessible, consistent learning paths and the fear of time investment without guaranteed outcomes. Creating structured, easy-to-follow resources is crucial to making data literacy a viable option for busy professionals.
Unlocking the Full Potential of Data with dbtDanny describes the transformation dbt brings to the data landscape, making it accessible not just to engineers but also to marketing ops and other non-engineering teams. In the past, accessing and manipulating data was a highly specialized skill, often requiring a marketer to rely heavily on a single engineer. As Danny puts it, you needed to build a relationship with this “one person in a closet somewhere” to get any insight or change implemented. This old approach made data access exclusive, slow, and frustrating for teams trying to move fast.
With dbt, Danny explains, the dynamics shift dramatically. It creates different roles and permission levels for everyone interacting with data, enabling a self-service model for marketers and operat...
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What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Lourenço Mello, Product Marketing Lead at Snowflake.
Summary: Lourenço drops us straight into the gravity well of martech, where Snowflake’s latest report pulls in the tools that really matter, letting the fluff float away. It’s all about data gravity, bringing the applications to the data instead of wasting energy shuttling data around. This shift is redefining what’s possible, streamlining operations, and giving marketers a new superpower to harness the forces of AI and analytics. With composability blurring boundaries and AI breaking down silos, the takeaway is crystal clear: master data quality and you’ll have the gravitational pull to outpace the competition.
About Lourenço
Lourenço started his career at an enterprise telecom company based in Portugal where he dabbled in competitive analysis, pricing and biz devHe later completed his MBA at UCLA and then spent 5 years at Microsoft as a Senior PMM focused on Azure and their data businessToday, Lourenço is Product Marketing Lead for the Solutions team at Snowflake
Understanding the Marketing Data Stack Report MethodologyLourenço’s perspective on Snowflake’s Marketing Data Stack Report centers around a fundamental commitment to objective analysis. Rather than focusing on internal partnerships or pushing favored solutions, Snowflake’s report leverages comprehensive telemetry data to identify which tools are truly gaining traction among its 8,000+ customers. This approach enables them to deliver a more impartial view of the martech landscape.
The methodology starts by categorizing the landscape according to current trends and customer adoption. Snowflake first identifies the relevant categories that its customers are using for marketing use cases, based on a snapshot of the industry. Lourenço emphasized that the analysis isn’t limited to tools with direct business relationships or joint ventures but looks holistically at the adoption metrics across the board. This objectivity sets the report apart, as it can spotlight tools that Snowflake hasn’t actively partnered with—yet are clearly valuable to their customers.
Two primary metrics guide the analysis: breadth of adoption and depth of adoption. Breadth measures how many customers are using a particular tool or solution, offering an initial view of popularity. However, without understanding how deeply those tools are being utilized, breadth alone can be misleading. Lourenço highlighted that a platform may have thousands of users but very minimal actual engagement. Thus, the second metric—depth of adoption—assesses how sophisticated the usage is within each customer’s implementation, revealing the true stickiness and impact of the tool.
By indexing both breadth and depth of adoption, Snowflake is able to create a ranked list of tools and platforms within each category. This process ensures that the final report is rooted in genuine customer behavior and preference, rather than internal biases. As Lourenço puts it, “the cool thing about this and really what's been so fun to be a part of is really the objectivity of the analysis.” The report not only highlights tools that are already well-integrated but also uncovers opportunities to build relationships with platforms that customers have independently gravitated towards.
This level of transparency ultimately fosters stronger collaboration between Snowflake and its partners. By showing where their customers are seeing success, the report opens the door for potential go-to-market initiatives that were previously unexplored. In a martech landscape often clouded by promotional bias, this approach offers a rare glimpse into which technologies are truly making a difference.
Key takeaway: The core strength of Snowflake’s Marketing Data Stack Report lies in its objectivity. By focusing on customer adoption metrics and removing subjective biases, the report provides a clearer view of the tools that are genuinely resonating with the market. This methodology enables Snowflake to support its customers with data-driven insights, and it paves the way for more meaningful partnerships with emerging leaders in the field.
Key Shifts Defining Martech and AdTech Today
When asked about the notable shifts between 2023 and 2024, Lourenço from Snowflake made it clear—what were once considered trends are now fundamental changes that have reshaped marketing. Last year’s report pointed to themes like the convergence of AdTech and martech, data privacy, generative AI, and the pursuit of a single source of truth. This year, these aren’t just trends—they’re seismic shifts that have permanently altered how the industry operates.
Instead of being temporary developments, Lourenço emphasized that these themes are “not going away,” likening them to the foundation of the industry itself. The report identifies three key forces driving transformation: data privacy, data gravity, and generative AI. These forces influence everything from how companies measure performance to how they monetize and manage first-party data. One of the more interesting dynamics highlighted this year is the emergence of commerce media, where industries traditionally characterized by thin margins—like retail and travel—are leveraging their vast pools of first-party data to unlock new revenue streams and drive higher profitability.
Data gravity, in particular, is a crucial concept. It describes how data is increasingly becoming the central point for both martech and AdTech activities. As Lourenço points out, brands are now using the same data source for real-time bidding on the AdTech side and for personalized experiences on the martech side. This convergence is made possible by advancements in data infrastructure, such as Snowflake’s native app framework. By allowing applications to run where the data resides, brands eliminate the need to move data back and forth, reducing latency and improving privacy. An example Lourenço shared involved identity resolution, where an eight-day process to reconcile identity data is now achievable in mere hours, sometimes even minutes, thanks to this infrastructure shift.
Another powerful change mentioned was how companies are transforming their roles—from being purely ad buyers to becoming ad sellers. This shift, Lourenço explains, is a direct consequence of organizations capitalizing on the value of their first-party data, looking to move up the value chain by creating new revenue channels through data monetization. Meanwhile, customers are increasingly interested in Marketing Mix Modeling (MMM) and other approaches to understand and optimize their media investment in light of these shifts.
The takeaway is clear: these are not passing trends but fundamental changes in how the industry functions. Snowflake’s position at the intersection of martech and AdTech provides a unique vantage point to observe these developments, and Lourenço’s insights offer a glimpse into the future of data-driven marketing.
Key takeaway: The convergence of data privacy, data gravity, and generative AI are not just fleeting trends—they’re transformative forces that are redefining the marketing landscape. Brands that align their strategy with these shifts can unlock new revenue streams, capitalize on efficiency gains, and strengthen data security, ensuring they stay ahead of the curve.
The Concept of Data Gravity in Modern Data Architecture
When Lourenço introduced the idea of data gravity, it wasn’t just about centralizing data; it was about rethinking how applications interact with it. The term itself evokes a sense of drawing everything—data, applications, and processes—toward a unified center. But in a broader sense, Lourenço emphasized that it’...
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What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Rutger Katz, GTM Operations Consultant.
Summary: Rutger helps us cut through the fluff of Lean methodology in marketing and how to spot when process gets in the way of efficiency. His advice is to cut out the waste—whether in your process, your tech stack, or how you measure success. Focus on what drives conversions, keep your systems lean, and use simple structures to maintain speed without sacrificing alignment. We also tackle tech debt and how a top-layer AI interface could simplify the case for a composable martech stack.
About Rutger
Rutger started his career in Neuroscience as a virtual reality developer at two different public research universities to study bodily illusions in VRAs the VR industry was quite immature at the time he pivoted to martech consulting, where he would spend 12 years working with different technology consulting firms getting a breadth of experience across marketing operations, martech, customer data and go-to-market across a variety of clients including Unilever where he focused on social analyticsAnd last year Rutger decided to go out on his own as a GTM Operations Consultant and recently launched NEON Triforce, a boutique consultancy focused on optimizing GTM for B2B scale-upsHe also recently joined The Martech Weekly as Content Lead for EU & UK organizing their first event in London.
Lean Marketing in PracticeLean marketing is all about eliminating waste and doubling down on what truly matters. Rutger emphasizes that no matter the size of the company, from a startup to an enterprise, inefficiencies always creep in. These processes—whether learned from someone else or ingrained as “the way things are done”—often aren’t optimal. Lean seeks to strip down these ingrained habits, perfecting the path to deliver value to customers.
Rutger highlights that lean marketing goes beyond just being "efficient." It is about understanding how every action connects back to the entire organization. The real challenge is aligning marketing efforts with revenue-driving KPIs, rather than fixating on vanity metrics like page views or social media follows. For Rutger, Lean is about cutting through those superficial measures to ensure that marketing impacts the business holistically.
What makes lean particularly valuable is that it doesn't stop at marketing. Rutger explains that Lean should apply to your entire go-to-market strategy. This means assessing not just how marketing operates but how it interlocks with sales, customer success, and even product development. It's about delivering maximum value to the customer while ensuring that the organization operates as efficiently as possible in providing that value.
Lean marketing is not a standalone function—it’s a way to optimize the whole organization. When done right, it leads to higher customer satisfaction, longer-term retention, and ultimately, a more streamlined business. For Rutger, this is where the real impact of Lean lies—not just in marketing efficiencies but in enhancing the customer experience across every touchpoint.
Key takeaway: Lean marketing is about focusing on what truly drives value. It's not just about marketing—it's about creating efficiency across your entire go-to-market approach, from sales to customer success, all while tying back to key business metrics.
Solving Inefficiencies in Sales and Marketing AlignmentWhen asked about real-world applications of lean methodologies, Rutger didn’t hesitate to dig into a common yet overlooked issue: the disconnect between sales and marketing. In his experience, CMOs often claim that everything is running smoothly. But when the conversation shifts towards collaboration with sales, the cracks begin to show. One CMO even mentioned that their sales team requested fewer leads, as they were overwhelmed by the volume. Others spoke of back-and-forth frustrations trying to sync efforts between both departments.
For Rutger, the root of inefficiency often comes at the handoff between marketing and sales. He explained that marketing teams frequently misinterpret sales-qualified leads (SQLs), sending what they define as SQLs but which sales deems unqualified. This misalignment creates friction, wasting time and resources on both sides. To fix this, Rutger advocates stepping back from just marketing processes and focusing on sales first. Understanding sales capacity and needs becomes essential to deliver the right leads at the right time.
A critical step in this process is optimizing for sales’ actual conversion capacity. Rutger highlights that if sales needs to convert 100 leads per month, with a 5% conversion rate, marketing needs to deliver 20 times that amount—2,000 SQLs. He stressed the importance of timely response, pointing out that conversion rates jump by 40% when sales follows up with a lead within 10 minutes. Aligning on this kind of data helps both teams work more effectively toward shared goals.
Rutger also urged teams to reevaluate the quality and cost-effectiveness of their campaigns. While campaigns may generate leads, some are far too costly or inefficient, with payback times stretching out to three or four years. Google paid accounts, for example, are notoriously expensive, yet still widely used, particularly in larger organizations. For Rutger, focusing on the most effective campaigns, while pruning inefficient ones, is key to driving sustainable growth.
Key takeaway: Marketing and sales alignment is critical for driving efficiency. Understanding sales capacity, optimizing lead delivery, and focusing on high-converting campaigns can reduce friction, improve collaboration, and significantly increase conversion rates.
Tackling Tech Debt and Building a Lean Martech StackWhen asked about navigating the complexities of consolidating a tech stack, Rutger didn’t mince words: aligning stakeholders across IT, marketing, and sales is often more political than it is technical. Large enterprises, in particular, face daunting hurdles when trying to scale back on overlapping tools. Rutger noted that the desire to build a “Frankenstack”—a collection of fragmented technologies—comes from every department wanting its own ideal solution. As a result, the journey to a leaner tech stack can seem like a never-ending project.
Rutger’s approach starts with identifying the biggest redundancies. While some overlap is by design, like when one product offers a superior feature, the challenge is to minimize overlap where it's unnecessary. In some cases, up to 60% of a company’s tools perform redundant functions. His advice: focus first on those areas where feature overlap is significant, perhaps 90% or more, and tackle these redundancies gradually. Start small, prioritize high-cost inefficiencies, and avoid a complete tech overhaul in one go.
Another common issue Rutger raised is "shadow IT"—the tools that departments purchase without full organizational knowledge or alignment. Marketing might opt for a quick-fix solution, or sales might buy something that works for them but doesn't integrate with other systems. These rogue tools further complicate efforts to streamline technology, making the case for better communication across departments.
One of Rutger's key strategies is calculating the cost of maintaining outdated systems against the cost of migration. In legacy-heavy sectors like insurance and banking, this is critical. His pragmatic approach weighs the resources, time, and potential revenue impact of migrations. With the rise of AI, Rutger suggests that migration tools could become faster and cheaper, potentially offsetting the costs of restructuring a tech stack. His advice? Keep your options open and l...
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What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Jared DeLuca, Director of Operations at Appcues.
Summary: Jared takes us inside the mad but amazing world of martech at Appcues – the top product adoption SaaS on the planet. We cover his transition from demand gen to ops, how he’s integrated demo bookings within the product using RevenueHero, the difference between ops and revops. We also cover a ton of ground on AI topics for marketers like machine learning lifecycle management, how to QA AI-driven messages and how to leverage AI to uncover incremental lifts in your campaigns.
About Jared
Jared started his career with a few internships in PR before joining a Market Research firmThat firm was later acquired by a UK based marketing data and analytics company where he worked his way up to Marketing ManagerHe then had a brief detour from SaaS at Keurig Dr Pepper in IoT Marketing Automation and Connected Panel Ops Finally Jared landed at Appcues, first in Demand Gen then Senior Martech and Ops Manager Today Jared is Director of Operations at Appcues
Moving from Demand Gen to Front-End DevelopmentJared’s shift from demand generation to front-end development was a mix of opportunity and curiosity. When his team’s operations lead left, he stepped in naturally. As the demand gen guy who relied heavily on those systems, Jared was the most logical choice. It wasn’t a calculated career move—it was about filling a gap. That’s how things go in startups, where you often find yourself doing a bit of everything.
His transition into front-end development had a different spark. Budgets were tight, and they didn’t have the luxury of hiring contractors. With years of HTML and CSS experience under his belt from working on emails and landing pages, Jared figured he could handle some of the coding work. AppCue supported the idea, allowing him to stretch into JavaScript. For small teams, having someone in-house with a broad skill set is invaluable, and Jared was more than willing to step up.
What made this shift special was Jared’s personal interest in coding. He enjoyed it. Coding wasn’t just a job; it was something fun to experiment with. One evening, while watching TV, he built a lead-gen magnet prototype in just an hour. It was born from a simple idea pitched by the content team, but Jared’s ability to quickly turn that into a working model showed the kind of spontaneous creativity that startups thrive on. The prototype may soon go live on their website.
Jared’s experience highlights the unpredictable nature of roles in smaller companies. You often find yourself taking on responsibilities you never planned for, and those unexpected opportunities can lead to new skills and career growth. For him, it wasn’t about following a clear path—it was about being adaptable and ready to learn.
Key takeaway: In a startup, being adaptable and willing to learn new skills can lead to unexpected career opportunities. It's less about having a perfect plan and more about being open to filling gaps when they appear.
How AI Tools Are Shaping HTML and CSS LearningWhen asked if tools like ChatGPT make learning HTML and CSS easier today, Jared didn’t hesitate to agree. He pointed out how much simpler it is for anyone looking to pick up coding now compared to when he started. Back then, you had to figure things out manually, while now, AI tools can assist with the heavy lifting. However, there’s a caveat—knowing what to ask for is still crucial.
Jared challenged the idea that AI is replacing developers. Instead, he emphasized that understanding the underlying structure of HTML and CSS is still key. Tools like ChatGPT can help speed up the process, but without knowledge of where to apply that code, the benefits are limited. AI can’t tell you how to structure a website; it can only help fill in the blanks once you know what you need.
He highlighted that while AI can handle repetitive keystrokes, the real value comes when you already know what you're aiming for. It’s not about AI replacing junior developers—it’s about leveraging these tools to work more efficiently. If someone understands the basics of coding and web structure, AI can cut down the time it takes to implement those tasks significantly.
For Jared, the most significant takeaway is how much time he saves. What used to take him hours can now be done in minutes with AI. The difference is in the efficiency, not the replacement of skill. If you know what you're doing, ChatGPT and similar tools become an incredible resource for improving speed and output, but they don’t replace the need for foundational knowledge.
Key takeaway: AI tools can dramatically speed up coding tasks, but the real advantage comes when you already understand the basics of HTML and CSS. It’s not about replacing developers, but about working smarter with the right knowledge and tools.
Why Developers Avoid Marketing in Software StartupsWhen asked why developers often seem disinterested in marketing, Jared’s perspective was insightful. In his experience, particularly in software startups, it’s not that developers are “allergic” to marketing; they simply don’t think about it. Their focus is on building and coding—creating the product itself. Marketing, and the role it plays in attracting users, often doesn’t even cross their mind.
Jared pointed out that many developers operate with a clear mindset: give them the requirements, and they’ll build exactly what you need. They’re more concerned with functionality than how the product will reach customers. This differs from product teams, who tend to think more about market fit and bridging the gap between building something and getting it to the user.
However, Jared has worked with engineers who do think more broadly. In some cases, especially in smaller teams, developers will ask key questions about the user experience and how people will engage with the product. But this tends to fade as companies scale. Jared mentioned his time at Keurig, where engineers were more specialized—focused on delivering exactly what was requested, with little thought to the next steps.
In Jared’s view, it’s less about a lack of interest in marketing and more about developers not having the bandwidth or inclination to focus beyond the task at hand. Their job is to build, and for many, thinking about the next phase—how the product reaches customers—isn’t a priority.
Key takeaway: Developers in startups aren’t necessarily disinterested in marketing; they’re simply focused on building. For those seeking to bridge the gap between engineering and marketing, fostering collaboration and highlighting the user journey can encourage developers to think beyond their immediate tasks.
How Responsive Support Transforms Marketing OpsJared emphasized how crucial responsive support is in marketing ops. When discussing his shift to Revenue Hero, he highlighted the frustration many teams face when relying on traditional support teams. He described how long it can take to get a response—sometimes 24 to 48 hours—and how those responses are often unhelpful, requiring even more back-and-forth communication.
What made Revenue Hero stand out to Jared was its approach to customer support. The team integrated seamlessly into his company’s Slack workspace, offering real-time access to their expertise. This level of support was a game changer. For Jared, it wasn’t just about the product performing well (which it did), but about the reassurance of knowing that if something went wrong, help was just a Slack message away.
One example Jared shared was when a demo request system broke—a critical part of ...
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What’s up everyone, today I have the pleasure of sitting down with Ron Jacobson, Co-founder and CEO of Rockerbox
Summary: Multi-touch attribution doesn’t tell you what really caused a conversion or revenue, it’s a credit distribution system. It’s still a useful guidepost in understanding where your efforts are making an impact. Incrementality testing, on the other hand, digs deeper—helping you pinpoint what’s really driving results by answering, "What would’ve happened without this campaign?" But to get there, it’s not about finding the perfect model, it’s about asking the right questions. Don’t get stuck in the basics like Google Analytics. True measurement demands first-party data and statistical modeling, especially as third-party cookies fade. For startups, the goal is momentum—nail one channel before diving into complex measurement. Build success first, then refine with tools like MTA or MMM to truly understand what drives growth.
About Ron
Ron started his career as a software engineer before transitioning to product management at AppNexus where he ran the platform analytics team and later the real time platform product teamHe then took the entrepreneurial plunge Co-founding Rockerbox, first as a programmatic advertising platform then a multi touch attribution platform And today they’ve added a suite of marketing measurement tools that also leverage marketing mix modeling.
Rethinking the Role of Multi-Touch AttributionMulti-touch attribution (MTA) often sparks debate around its effectiveness in driving marketing decisions. While many recognize it as a flawed tool, few fully grasp the extent to which it misses a crucial element: causality. When asked whether MTA should be seen as a credit distribution mechanism rather than a way to measure causality, Ron agrees wholeheartedly, explaining that this is exactly how his team has framed the discussion for years.
Ron emphasizes that MTA’s purpose isn’t to assign cause-and-effect between marketing touchpoints and revenue generation. Instead, it's a retrospective tool designed to distribute credit across various touchpoints in a customer’s journey. He argues that marketing teams need to shift their focus from chasing causality to understanding how customers interact with marketing efforts. This approach helps marketers assess what channels or strategies might be working, even if the exact causal impact remains elusive.
A specific example Ron highlights is when clients test new channels like OTT, CTV, or linear TV. Frequently, these clients aren’t sure if the new channel is even making an impact. The issue, he notes, isn’t necessarily that the marketing is ineffective—it’s that the data simply doesn’t reflect customer engagement due to gaps in tools like Google Analytics. While causality is still out of reach, MTA can at least show that the new channel is on the customer’s path to purchase, providing some reassurance that the efforts are not entirely in vain.
Ron points out that this shift in perspective helps marketing teams function more effectively. Rather than getting bogged down by the impossibility of determining exact causality, teams can use MTA to answer more immediate, practical questions: What are the touchpoints that seem to drive the most engagement? Where should we focus next? It’s not about perfectly predicting outcomes, but about gathering insights that improve day-to-day operations.
Key takeaway: MTA isn’t designed to establish causality, but rather to help distribute credit among touchpoints. When marketers focus on how customers engage with their efforts rather than trying to measure cause-and-effect, MTA becomes a valuable tool in refining strategy.
Understanding the Value of Path to ConversionWhen diving into the value of the path to conversion, we often struggle with the fact that it doesn’t fully address causality. Just because a customer clicks on a Google link and converts doesn’t necessarily mean that click caused the purchase. It’s possible the customer had already been influenced by a social ad or an email from days prior. Understanding the motivations behind these actions remains elusive.
Ron’s take on this is refreshingly straightforward. He suggests ignoring the model entirely when pitching multi-touch attribution (MTA). Instead, focus on the question: What can you learn from understanding the customer’s path to conversion? By treating MTA as an alternative lens to last-click or first-touch attribution, Ron emphasizes that it provides more context but doesn’t necessarily give a definitive answer to causality. He argues that last-touch attribution, for example, isn’t the best method for understanding the full customer journey.
The real value of analyzing the path to conversion, according to Ron, comes from the variety of questions you can answer. Questions like time to conversion, comparing paths for new versus retained customers, or how adding a new channel influences customer behavior. Retention, in particular, has gained importance as rising interest rates push companies to focus on profitability, and understanding how existing customers engage without paid media is crucial.
Ron points out that the path to conversion isn’t just a credit distribution mechanism but a core dataset that allows marketers to do their jobs more effectively. By looking beyond conversions alone and examining full paths, even those that don’t lead to a sale, marketers can better assess conversion rates and session data. Still, he concedes that none of this answers the critical question of whether marketing spend was truly incremental or whether a customer would have converted without it.
Key takeaway: While path to conversion analysis doesn’t solve for causality, it opens the door to deeper insights. Marketers can use it to answer key questions about customer behavior, retention, and channel effectiveness, but should remain aware of its limitations in proving incremental impact.
Defining Incrementality in MarketingWhen we discuss incrementality, the core question is simple: Would the business results still have happened without marketing? It’s a shift in mindset from how we traditionally report on marketing outcomes. Instead of simply attributing revenue to specific touchpoints, incrementality forces us to ask whether that revenue would exist at all if we hadn’t spent that marketing dollar.
Ron emphasizes the importance of having a baseline when assessing incrementality. Without this, everything looks like it’s driven by marketing, which isn’t always true. For him, the key is understanding the marginal return on that last dollar spent. In other words, is each dollar spent still driving profitable results? This approach helps marketers gauge if they’re spending wisely and achieving their business goals.
The real challenge comes in determining the best methodologies to uncover incrementality. Ron explains that while modeling tools like multi-touch attribution (MTA) aren’t designed to measure incrementality, they provide valuable insights when combined with testing methodologies. He highlights that running a holdout test, for example, can reveal incremental results, and applying that test’s findings to MTA reporting allows marketers to optimize daily decisions while still understanding broader trends.
Ultimately, Ron advises marketers to focus less on the methodologies themselves and more on the questions they need answers to. Whether you’re trying to allocate next quarter’s budget or determine the effectiveness of a new creative, the right approach depends on what you’re trying to uncover. By starting with the right questions, marketers can select the best tools or methods to answer them, rather than getting caught up in finding a one-size-fits-all solution.
Key takeaway: In...
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What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Erin Foxworthy, Industry Lead, Advertisers & Agencies at Snowflake.
Summary: In this episode, Erin takes us on a ride through the merging worlds of martech, adtech, AI, and privacy, giving a bold glimpse into what’s next for customer data. We cover how you can use 1st party data for seed predictions, why it’s time you move on from APIs and adopt data sharing and what the unified data layer means for marketers. Oh and Erin gives us her take on the uncertainty of Google's cookie deprecation rollback.About Erin
Erin is former Category Development Lead at Microsoft Advertising collaborating with product, marketing and sales teamsShe later became Executive VP of Partnerships and Innovation at Horizon Media – the popular NYC-based ad agency – focused on first-to-market creative and data opportunities for her clientsShe’s also a well traveled speaker and was awarded the Technology Leader at Cynopsis Top Women in Media in 2020Today Erin serves as the Industry Principal for media, entertainment and advertising at Snowflake, focusing on advertisers and agencies
The duality of creativity and measurement in advertisingIn the early days of advertising, media was often an afterthought. Erin recalls how the majority of a CMO's focus was on perfecting commercial spots, direct mail, or magazine ads, with meticulous attention to detail. The creative side was the talk of the industry, leaving media playing a supporting role. However, as digital platforms emerged and ad units fragmented, the dynamic shifted. Creative and media teams, which were once tightly knit, began to drift apart, especially as agencies expanded to handle the complexity of new media channels.
Erin notes that media became so specialized across different digital platforms that it gradually separated from the creative process. In her own career, which began at a full-service agency, she experienced this firsthand. Early on, she worked side by side with creative directors and copywriters, but as agencies scaled and media buying spread across hundreds of channels, those joint discussions became fewer. The focus shifted to simply managing the volume, leaving less time for deeper creative collaboration.
What's promising, though, is the potential for artificial intelligence (AI) to bridge that gap again. Erin suggests that advancements in AI are already pushing the industry toward more integrated workflows. Platforms are increasingly using AI-driven algorithms to optimize ad performance—automating decisions and delivering results in a more turnkey fashion. This, she believes, will allow media teams to shift some of their focus back toward creative strategy.
In her view, AI could also democratize creativity, empowering marketers who may not traditionally be involved in creative production to step into that space. With AI handling the data-driven optimization, there’s an opportunity for marketers and agencies to bring creative and media closer together once again, regaining the collaboration that once defined the advertising world.
Key takeaway: AI advancements are reshaping the relationship between creative and media in advertising, offering a chance to reconnect these disciplines. This evolution could allow marketers to step into creative roles while freeing up time to focus on what works, both organically and through paid channels.
The future of automation in creative marketingWe often wonder how far we can trust machines to handle core marketing tasks, especially in areas like email where AI-driven recommendations are common but often met with skepticism. When asked about automation in creative marketing, Erin shared a candid perspective on where the industry stands.
Erin points out that automation’s impact is already visible in marketing operations, particularly in tasks like resizing creative and ad serving. These areas are primed for disruption, and automation is becoming essential in managing the growing complexity of campaign delivery. However, when it comes to more creative and brand-focused ad units, she remains unconvinced that AI is ready to replace the human touch anytime soon.
For Erin, the heart of the issue lies in the nuances of brand messaging. Creative ad units are designed to build emotional connections with consumers, and this often requires a level of empathy and intuition that AI can't replicate—at least not yet. While AI can handle logistics and optimization in areas like programmatic advertising, the human element remains critical for conveying the personality and tone of a brand.
She sees AI's role expanding in marketing operations, but for now, brand messaging is where human creativity holds its ground. As AI continues to evolve, marketers will need to find the right balance, leveraging automation for efficiency while maintaining the human insight necessary to craft compelling, emotionally resonant ads.
Key takeaway: Automation will continue to disrupt marketing operations, particularly in optimizing workflows and ad delivery. However, for creative brand messaging, human creativity remains irreplaceable. Marketers should embrace AI for its efficiency while ensuring it complements, rather than replaces, the human touch in their messaging strategy.
Understanding the convergence of Martech and AdTechWhen asked about the distinction between Martech and AdTech, Erin provides an insightful perspective. Traditionally, people often simplify the divide: Martech is for marketers and AdTech is for advertisers. However, she views this as an oversimplification that doesn’t capture the true nature of the industry’s evolution. Both are ultimately driven by technology—platforms created by companies that serve both marketers and advertisers as users. The complexity lies not in who controls the platform, but in finding the right technology to meet the needs of a specific enterprise.
Erin emphasizes that this convergence is especially noticeable as personalization becomes central to marketing and advertising strategies. Where Martech was once seen as powering owned channels like email and SMS, and AdTech controlled paid channels like social ads and programmatic buys, today, the line between the two is blurring. Personalization is no longer limited to owned channels; it’s becoming essential in paid media, social platforms, and even connected TV (CTV) campaigns. This level of integration hinges on having the right data infrastructure, enabling one-to-one conversations across all customer touchpoints.
What makes this especially challenging is the industry's historical lack of unified strategy across these channels. Erin notes that traditionally, marketers have operated in silos—sending emails, running social ads, and buying media independently. Now, with the growing expectation for a seamless, personalized experience, businesses must integrate these efforts to understand how various touchpoints—whether through an SMS campaign, social ad, or CTV buy—are interacting to shape the customer journey.
At its core, this shift is about harnessing data across all platforms and using it to create personalized, consistent messaging. For Erin, the convergence of Martech and AdTech means unifying applications on a scalable platform that can support this kind of holistic approach. This trend is exciting and challenging, pushing companies to rethink the ways they manage customer data and interactions.
Key takeaway: The traditional divide between Martech and AdTech is becoming outdated. As personalization continues to drive both marketing and advertising, the real challenge lies in unifying customer interactions across all channels on a scalable platform. Businesses must move beyond simple categorizations and focus on ...
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What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Liam Moroney, Co-Founder of Storybook Marketing.
Summary: Liam handed us warm tea and one of his hand-knitted beanies as we explored how marketing goes beyond just hitting pipeline numbers. It’s about building trust, shaping perceptions, and ensuring your brand is top-of-mind when it matters. Balancing short-term wins with long-term brand-building is crucial, yet often misunderstood. Clear communication and a broader approach to measuring impact are key. For startups, focusing on trust and credibility lays the foundation for success. Marketing’s true power lies in creating a lasting impact that drives real decisions.About Liam
Liam started his career in various industries wearing several different marketing hats
Eventually he landed at NewsCred, a content marketing agency for enterprise teams where he started leading Demand Gen before shifting to client side and advising clients on attribution and ROI
He then had Revenue Marketing leadership stints at various startups across different industries like personalization, travel, mobile and identity verification
He then started his entrepreneurial journey by founding a consulting firm for growth-stage B2B companies
Liam is also a contributing writer at Martech.org and recently started his own podcast called The B2B Brand
Today Liam is the co-founder of Storybook Marketing, a full-service demand gen agency for B2B SaaS specializing in paid media programs
Marketing’s Role Beyond the PipelineMarketing, historically viewed as the "arts and crafts department," has evolved significantly. Yet, according to Liam, there’s a lingering misperception, particularly in B2B, that needs addressing. When asked about his concerns with marketing being reduced to a mere pipeline number, Liam didn’t shy away from dissecting the issue. It’s not about rejecting accountability—marketing should indeed own a number. The real problem lies in how we've overcorrected, narrowing the focus to such an extent that it undermines the broader role marketing plays.
Liam points out that this shift in perception—driven by the need to demonstrate that marketing is a data-driven, outcome-producing function—has caused demand generation to become nearly synonymous with marketing. This reductionist view oversimplifies marketing’s contribution. When marketing is pigeonholed into a single metric, such as its share of the overall pipeline, it suggests that marketing is just another channel, responsible only for a fraction of the sales process. This perspective shortchanges the true purpose of marketing.
Liam believes that marketing's ultimate goal is to make the sales process smoother and more efficient. When more people know about a product, believe in its value, and have confidence in its efficacy, selling becomes easier. Marketing should be responsible for influencing the entire pipeline, not just a portion of it. The role of marketing is to make deals faster, bigger, and more frequent. By restricting marketing’s scope to its contribution to the pipeline, we inadvertently diminish its impact.
In B2C, marketing drives consumers directly to purchase. In B2B, it drives prospects into the sales process, partnering with salespeople to guide the purchase decision. While the dynamics differ, the overarching responsibility remains the same: marketing should facilitate the entire journey, not just the initial steps.
Key takeaway: Marketing should not be reduced to a pipeline number. Its true value lies in its ability to influence and enhance the entire sales process, driving not just awareness but also belief, confidence, and ultimately, conversion.
Balancing Short and Long-Term Marketing GoalsWhen asked about the perception that marketing hides behind long-term goals to avoid accountability, Liam was quick to dispel this myth. He argues that marketing isn’t unique in balancing both short and long-term objectives—many functions, like data science and financial advising, operate with a future-oriented perspective. Yet, marketing often faces undue scrutiny because it’s expected to produce immediate, tangible results each quarter.
Liam acknowledges that some of this mistrust is self-inflicted. Marketing has, at times, oversold its capabilities and doubled down on being seen solely as a pipeline-generating function. This narrow focus has contributed to the misconception that marketing’s only job is to deliver immediate results. However, Liam emphasizes that marketing's true role is both long-term and short-term. The primary objective is to generate future customers by building awareness, while also activating efforts that yield results today.
In B2B and B2C alike, successful marketing requires a dual approach. Brand awareness campaigns, for example, are designed to create a long-term impact by making more people aware of a product. Simultaneously, demand generation activities work to convert that awareness into action. The two functions are interdependent—effective demand gen relies on strong brand awareness, and vice versa.
Liam draws an interesting parallel with B2C marketing, where the distinction between long and short-term strategies is often clearer. Brand campaigns might run over months or years to build awareness, while in-store promotions are designed to trigger immediate purchases. The same principles apply in B2B marketing, where demand gen efforts must be supported by a solid foundation of brand awareness. Without this balance, even the best demand gen strategies will falter.
Key takeaway: Marketing must balance long-term brand building with short-term activation efforts. Success comes from integrating these approaches, ensuring that immediate demand generation is supported by strong brand awareness.
Educating Leadership on the Value of Brand MarketingWhen marketers find themselves trapped by the constant demand for immediate pipeline results, it can be challenging to advocate for the long-term value of brand building. Liam addresses this issue head-on, acknowledging that while it’s easy to champion long-term thinking on platforms like LinkedIn, the reality for in-house marketers is different. Every marketer has targets to meet, and failure to hit those can lead to quick dismissal. However, Liam emphasizes that this doesn’t mean abandoning the long-term strategy—rather, it’s about balancing both while educating leadership on what brand marketing truly entails.
Liam points out that part of the problem lies in a lack of education—both for marketers and the C-suite. Marketers need to articulate better what brand marketing is and how it contributes to the overall business objectives. However, the burden of education doesn’t end there. Liam advises against the common notion of only working for CEOs who "get" marketing, as those opportunities are rare. Instead, much of the work involves reeducating leaders on the role and impact of marketing.
The key, according to Liam, is alignment with the sales team. If sales perceive that marketing isn’t contributing to their efforts, it can create friction that quickly undermines marketing’s initiatives. By engaging in conversations with sales, marketers can uncover the real challenges that hinder sales efforts. For instance, if sales teams find themselves consistently listed last in RFPs, it might indicate a brand awareness issue. Or, if there’s a widespread misconception about pricing, that points to a perception problem that marketing can address.
By identifying these pain points and framing them as marketing challenges, marketers can gain the trust of their sales counterparts. This trust can, in turn, lead to greater permission to allocate resources toward long-term brand-building efforts. It’s not an overnight process, but Liam stresses that when done correctly,...
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What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Benoit Leggieri, Head of Growth at Livestorm.
Summary: Benoit offers a behind-the-scenes look at how Livestorm’s martech stack drives growth and personalization. At its heart is Customer.io, seamlessly integrated with tools like Amplitude, Segment, and Mutiny, creating a powerful system that delivers tailored experiences while scaling effortlessly. By leveraging data-driven workflows to address user needs with precision and automating processes like product certification, Livestorm not only boosts conversions but also deepens customer relationships. Their strategic use of gated content for complex demos further enhances engagement, showcasing a martech strategy that’s as effective as it is thoughtful.
Benoit started his career at a B2B comms agency before joining HUB Institute, Paris’ top think tank as a Growth marketerHe later joined an event software startup as a product marketing managerHe was also a part time trainer at a digital marketing school in ParisIn 2020 he joined Livestorm – the top video engagement software – as a growth manager to work CRO and after only a year he was promoted to Growth Lead and later Head of Growth where he leads a team of 3 growth managers
About BenoitLivestorm’s Martech Stack Built for Personalization and Retention
Livestorm’s martech stack is a powerhouse, meticulously crafted to enhance every stage of the customer journey. They use Customer.io, Hubspot, SEMRush, and Clay and Benoit unpacks a few other elements. The stack also features Amplitude, the go-to tool for analyzing website conversion rates. Amplitude also helps identify exactly where the user experience can improve, turning insights into action.
Mutiny takes center stage for personalization. By tailoring website content to specific industries and personas, it ensures that each visitor feels like the site was made just for them. Whether it’s through social proofs or custom messaging, this tool helps Livestorm engage B2B clients on a deeper level, making every interaction count.
Segment serves as the backbone of data management. It captures user data and seamlessly distributes it across various platforms, from email marketing to in-app messaging. This orchestration guarantees that every touchpoint with the customer is personalized and relevant, driving better engagement and retention.
Benoit also gives a nod to Refiner, a key player in capturing user feedback. Whether it’s through NPS surveys or specific feedback on new features, Refiner ensures Livestorm stays in tune with its users. Integrated with Segment, it not only gathers data but triggers timely follow-ups, helping to refine the product based on real user input.
Key takeaway: A well-integrated martech stack is essential for delivering personalized experiences and driving user retention. Tools like Amplitude, Mutiny, Customerio.io and Segment work together to create a seamless journey, while Refiner ensures user feedback directly informs product improvements.
The Orchestrator and the Center of Your Martech StackBenoit doesn’t hesitate when asked about the centerpiece of Livestorm’s martech stack. For him, the core has always been their marketing automation tool, Customer.io. This tool has been instrumental since Livestorm's early days, especially when they were a small, self-serve business. Benoit attributes much of their growth to the strategic use of Customer.io, which not only automated specific messaging but also provided critical insights into the buyer's journey. The integration with Segment further amplified its impact, allowing Livestorm to capture and utilize data points effectively, which in turn, scaled conversions and expanded their customer base.
As Livestorm grew, so did the complexity of their martech stack. Benoit mentions that as the company evolved, the data warehouse and Customer Data Platform (CDP) began playing a more significant role. Yet, despite this evolution, he remains adamant that the true orchestrator of their stack continues to be Customer.io. Its role in managing and optimizing the buyer journey is so ingrained in their operations that it remains central, even as new tools and processes are introduced.
This perspective reflects a broader trend where companies initially rely heavily on marketing automation tools as their primary orchestrator. But as they scale and gather more data, the role of CDPs and data warehouses becomes increasingly important. However, for Livestorm, the foundational importance of a tool like Customer.io cannot be overstated, especially given its ability to adapt and integrate as the company’s needs grew more complex.
The evolution of Livestorm’s stack from a single orchestrator to a more complex, data-driven system underscores the importance of flexibility and scalability in martech tools. While the CDP and data warehouse have become critical, the consistent thread has been Customer.io’s capacity to grow with them, demonstrating that even as the tech stack evolves, the initial building blocks remain crucial.
Key takeaway: The backbone of a successful martech stack often starts with a solid marketing automation tool. As a company scales, additional tools like CDPs and data warehouses become vital, but the original orchestrator, like Customer.io in Livestorm’s case, continues to play a crucial role in managing and optimizing the customer journey.
Why Customer.io Stands Out for LivestormWhen asked about what makes Customer.io a standout tool for Livestorm, Benoit highlighted three key features that have made it indispensable to their marketing efforts.
1 - First on the list is data integration. Benoit praises the seamless connection between Customer.io and their Customer Data Platform (CDP), Segment. This integration enables Livestorm to map user events and attributes effortlessly, which in turn allows for highly personalized messaging. By leveraging this data, the team can trigger specific campaigns at the perfect moment for each user, ensuring that every message is relevant and timely.
2 - The second feature Benoit appreciates is the user experience (UX) and user interface (UI) of the platform. Onboarding new team members has been straightforward, thanks to Customer.io’s intuitive design. The visual workflow builder simplifies the process of creating and editing campaigns and emails, making it easy for the entire team to collaborate and execute strategies without unnecessary complications.
3 - Finally, Benoit highlights the segment builder as a crucial tool in their arsenal. Managing recipient lists can be a nightmare in many platforms, but Customer.io’s approach, with tags and naming conventions, makes it much easier to organize and clean up lists. This feature not only improves efficiency but also ensures that Livestorm’s campaigns reach the right audience every time.
Key takeaway: Customer.io excels in data integration, intuitive UX/UI, and efficient segment management, making it a powerful tool for personalized marketing campaigns. These features have allowed Livestorm to optimize their messaging and ensure smooth operations across their team.
Crafting Revenue-Driving Workflows with Customer.ioBenoit shares a fascinating look at how Livestorm has leveraged Customer.io to create sophisticated workflows, particularly those focused on driving revenue. This year, the team concentrated on revenue-centric workflows, addressing challenges like incomplete subscriptions and payment issues—common hurdles in any SaaS business.
One notable experiment revolved around abandoned carts. By integrating Customer.io with their data stack, they tracked users who landed on the billing page but didn’t complete their transactions. This e-commerce-in...
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What’s up everyone, today I have the pleasure of sitting down with Pranav Piyush, Co-Founder and CEO at Paramark.
Summary: Pranav guides us out of the labyrinth of multi-touch attribution under the clear sky of incrementality and causality, urging marketers to focus on whether their efforts genuinely drive sales that wouldn’t happen otherwise. Early-stage startups can benefit by prioritizing simple methods like geo-based testing over complex attribution models, allowing intuition to guide resourceful experimentation. By understanding the underlying motivations and true causality behind customer actions, marketers can craft campaigns that resonate deeply and drive real results. As businesses grow, balancing intuition with structured analytics becomes crucial. Holdout tests and marketing mix modeling provide actionable insights, ensuring strategies remain effective in a competitive landscape. This approach transforms marketing from a cost into an investment in sustainable growth, making each dollar count.
Pranav started his career at well known brands like PayPal and DropboxHe co-founded Padlet, the popular collaboration app to make school less boringHe’s former Head of Growth at Magento and Pilot.com before becoming VP of Marketing at BILLHe’s also a Reforge Instructor for a new marketing measurement courseAnd in March of last year, Pranav co-founded Paramark to help marketers measure and forecast the impact of their investments
About Pranav
What’s More Valuable? Analytical Skills or Creative Taste?Marketing's creative nature often gets overshadowed by the obsession with data. Recently, HubSpot’s co-founder Brian Halligan suggested that marketers with good taste are undervalued compared to those with analytical skills. Pranav agrees, arguing that creativity now drives the most significant impact in marketing. We often question the overuse of the term "data-driven" in marketing, suggesting a shift towards being more "creatively driven." Pranav responds, arguing that data-driven and data-informed are all kind of bullshit. Relying solely on being "data-informed" is not sufficient. He emphasizes that without the ability to discern the success of a creative idea through data, creativity alone falls short.
Marketers face the challenge of making memorable impressions on people they've never met, and this requires innovation and creativity. While data is essential, Pranav notes that many marketers don't truly understand the depth of analytical skills. True data literacy involves grasping complex concepts like correlation and causation, which are often missing in marketers' education.
Pranav points out that the dichotomy between creativity and analytics is overly simplistic. Marketers need to integrate both skills. This blend is crucial not only in marketing but in other business functions like product development. He uses the example of launching a feature and gauging its success. If only 10% of the customer base uses it, understanding the broader impact on adoption, revenue, and retention is essential.
Despite recognizing the importance of analytical skills, Pranav emphasizes that good taste in marketing offers a unique advantage. Creativity leads to building compelling campaigns that resonate more profoundly with audiences. This insight suggests that while data provides valuable insights, it is creativity that ultimately distinguishes successful marketing efforts. Pranav further highlights the importance of rigorous testing and measurement. A successful feature or campaign isn't just about positive feedback; it needs to contribute to tangible business outcomes, such as increased revenue or cost savings. Without proper measurement, the value of creative initiatives remains unclear.
Key takeaway: To truly excel in marketing, you need to embrace a harmonious balance between analytical skills and creative taste. This means honing your ability to interpret data while also nurturing your creative instincts to craft memorable campaigns. Instead of relying solely on data or creativity, focus on integrating these skills. Use data to measure the success of your creative ideas, ensuring they lead to meaningful business outcomes like increased revenue or customer retention. By blending data literacy with creative insight, you'll develop campaigns that resonate deeply and drive tangible results.
Understanding Incrementality in MarketingWe often hear marketers claiming they understand ROI and reporting, yet the concept of incrementality often eludes them. Pranav sheds light on this by differentiating between attribution and incrementality. Attribution, as he explains, is rooted in the idea of cause and effect. However, its usage has been diluted over time, losing its original meaning.
Pranav appreciates our provided definition of incrementality: business results from marketing campaigns or channels that wouldn’t have occurred otherwise. He elaborates that if a prospect would have purchased a product without the influence of marketing, then that marketing effort isn't incremental. Conversely, if a prospect's decision to buy is directly influenced by marketing, then that effort is incremental.
He emphasizes the importance of understanding incrementality beyond traditional marketing channels, especially in B2B contexts. This involves considering scaled sales channels, partner channels, and affiliate channels. The essence of incrementality lies in recognizing the true impact of marketing efforts on sales and other business outcomes.
Pranav's insights underscore the need for marketers to move beyond surface-level metrics and understand the deeper implications of their strategies. By focusing on incrementality, they can more accurately measure the effectiveness of their campaigns and make informed decisions that drive real business growth.
Key takeaway: Focus on incrementality to truly gauge your marketing impact. Instead of just relying on attribution metrics, assess whether your efforts genuinely drive sales that wouldn't have happened otherwise. By understanding and applying incrementality across all channels, you can refine your strategies and foster real business growth.
Unpacking Multi-Touch AttributionMulti-touch attribution (MTA) often gets hailed as the holy grail of marketing measurement. Many believe it's essential to solve attribution by capturing all touchpoints. However, Pranav argues that the obsession with MTA overlooks fundamental issues, particularly around causality.
When discussing attribution, we need to understand cause and effect. Pranav illustrates this with a simple example: if someone clicks on a Google link and converts, did that click cause the conversion? Sometimes it does, but other times it doesn't. He emphasizes the need to ask, "What prompted the search in the first place?" Without knowing this, we aren't truly understanding causality. We're merely observing sequences of actions without grasping their underlying motivations.
Pranav criticizes the current approach to MTA, which often amounts to behavioral analytics. This method logs sequences like A led to B led to C, but it doesn't clarify if A caused B. This lack of clarity is compounded by pressures on marketing and analytics teams to produce quick results, pushing them towards convenient but superficial solutions.
The martech industry, according to Pranav, has profited from building easy, superficial tools rather than delving into the complex but necessary task of understanding true causality. He believes this approach must change for the industry to advance meaningfully. By focusing on more robust methodologies, marketers can gain genuine insights into the effectiveness of their campaigns.
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What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Jacqueline Freedman, CEO and Founder at Monarch Advisory Partners.
Summary: Jacqueline straps on her jetpack and invites us to soar through the martech skies, teaching us how to navigate the journey of becoming an independent martech advisor. From hands-on execution tasks strategy and advisory projects and assembling a futuristic composable martech stack, we cover a lot of air miles. We navigate the build versus buy decision in martech, the realities of composable CDPs and embracing user-friendly modern marketing automation tools.
About Jacqueline
Jacqueline started her career in Account and relationship management before joining WeWork where she would eventually settle into a Global Engagement Marketing and Operations Manager role as the fifth marketing hire during the company’s hyper-growth She later joined an email and lifecycle growth agency as the 2nd team member and built out their NYC office where she worked with startups ranging from seed to series CShe then moved over to Grammarly as the founding Marketing Operations hire where she built out the B2B MOPs team and led their marketing technology stack to support their transition to a B2B2C companyAnd recently Jacqueline strapped on her jetpack and went out on her own as a solopreneur founding Monarch Advisory Partners, a full-stack Marketing Ops and Martech consultancy
Why Introspection is the Secret Weapon for Aspiring EntrepreneursJacqueline, reflecting on her transition from Grammarly to entrepreneurship, reveals the depth of her decision-making process. With a family history rooted in entrepreneurship, Jacqueline always envisioned herself running her own business. Observing her father and grandfather, she felt like she had a front-row seat to an MBA. This early exposure planted the seed of entrepreneurship, but it wasn’t until she recognized her unique skill set that she felt truly ready to take the plunge.
The decision wasn’t impulsive. Jacqueline emphasized the role of introspection and reflection in her journey. She spent a year contemplating the right moment, fueled by her natural tendency to overthink. Through late nights and early mornings, she assessed her career achievements, from scaling WeWork during its prime to steering Grammarly’s shift to B2C. These experiences solidified her belief in her capabilities, leading her to recognize that she was ready for the entrepreneurial leap.
Jacqueline’s courage was also bolstered by her practical approach. While at Grammarly, she had already begun advising several founders, driven by her passion for problem-solving rather than monetary gain. These conversations not only honed her skills but also provided a soft landing into entrepreneurship. By the time she officially launched her business, she had a lineup of clients ready, thanks to her reputation and the support of colleagues and partners who championed her abilities.
Her journey highlights the importance of strategic preparation and the value of building a strong professional network. Jacqueline’s story is a testament to how a combination of introspection, practical experience, and a supportive community can make a significant career transition smoother and more successful.
Key takeaway: Use introspection to identify your unique skills and career achievements. Reflecting on these aspects will not only boost your confidence but also clarify your readiness for major career changes, like transitioning to entrepreneurship.
How TV Dramatization Barely Scratches WeWork's Reality
When asked about the accuracy of the WeWork TV show "WeCrashed" on Apple TV, Jacqueline offered a candid perspective. Having watched all the content related to WeWork, she noted that "WeCrashed" starring Jared Leto and Anne Hathaway, came closest to capturing the essence of the events. However, she emphasized that the series only scratched the surface of what truly transpired.
Jacqueline explained that while the series contained a kernel of truth, the actual events at WeWork were far more intense. Everything depicted in the show was amplified tenfold in reality. This amplification was very much in line with WeWork's brand, known for its high-energy and sometimes chaotic environment. She described her experience of watching the dramatization as somewhat PTSD-inducing due to its accuracy in portraying the underlying ethos of WeWork.
Despite the dramatization, Jacqueline found it fascinating and somewhat validating to see the story unfold on screen. The series succeeded in conveying the core truth of WeWork's journey, even if it couldn't fully encapsulate the extremities of the real-life scenarios. For Jacqueline, revisiting those memories through the show was a mixed experience, balancing between validation and the resurfacing of intense memories.
Her insights underscore the dramatic nature of WeWork’s history and how media adaptations, while engaging, often have to simplify or condense reality. For viewers, it’s a reminder that behind the scenes, the stories of such companies are often more complex and multifaceted than any series can fully capture.
Key takeaway: Jacqueline noted that while "WeCrashed" captured the essence of WeWork, it only scratched the surface of the true events, which were far more intense. The dramatization, though somewhat accurate and PTSD-inducing, validated the chaotic environment of WeWork. However, she emphasized that media adaptations often simplify the complexities of real-life scenarios.
How to Become a Martech Advisor
Balancing Hands On Execution Projects vs Strategic AdviceJacqueline addresses the nuanced demands of clients in marketing operations (MOPs). While she shares a passion for every facet of MOPs, she acknowledges a point in her career where hands-on tasks like copywriting and sending emails no longer align with her long-term vision. This shift towards focusing on advisement and strategy is something she enjoys, and it's about setting clear expectations from the start with clients.
Each client’s needs vary, which Jacqueline finds exciting. However, it necessitates clear communication about what she offers. When clients require extensive lifecycle or demand generation email execution, Jacqueline is upfront about her role. If it's a short-term need, she might handle it, but for long-term commitments, she refers them to trusted partners. She mentions firms like Modular Marketing and Ragnarok, highlighting her strong relationships with these agencies. This symbiotic partnership ensures clients get top-notch service while allowing Jacqueline to concentrate on strategic advisement.
By focusing on strategy, Jacqueline can provide high-level insights and direction that impact her clients' overall marketing operations. She values the ability to step back from the minutiae and look at the bigger picture, helping businesses navigate their marketing landscapes more effectively. This approach not only suits her professional growth but also ensures her clients receive specialized, high-quality execution from her partners.
Jacqueline’s journey exemplifies the importance of evolving in one’s career and recognizing when to delegate tasks that no longer fit one’s vision. It’s about leveraging strengths and building a network of reliable partners to deliver comprehensive solutions. Her ability to set expectations and offer strategic guidance is a testament to her experience and foresight in the marketing operations field.
Key takeaway: When transitioning to a more strategic consulting role, clearly communicate your focus and delegate hands-on tasks to trusted partners. This allows you to leverage your strengths, provi...
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What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Simon Heaton, Director of Growth Marketing at Buffer.
Summary: Simon helps us explore Buffer's martech journey, highlighting their shift from traditional tools to a product-led approach driven by data and server-side analytics. We unpack their use of Customer.io for automation and hold out testing, Redash for data insights, and their agile sprint model that fosters continuous innovation. Discover how Buffer's small team thrives with efficient, data-driven strategies.
About Simon
Simon started his career in the agency world at Banfield in Ottawa, CanadaHe later moved over to Shopify where he would spend nearly 7 years, first as a content Marketing Manager and later as the Senior Growth Lead, AcquisitionSimon’s also worn a part-time teaching hat for over 5 years, he was an Instructor with Telfer School of Management at UofO as well as a Professor at Algonquin CollegeHe’s a startup mentor for founders that are part of the Singapore-based equity fund at AntlerToday Simon is Director of Growth Marketing at Buffer, the world-renowned social media management platform
Buffer’s Marketing Tech Stack and Why it Doesn’t Include a CRMBuffer’s marketing strategy is unique. They don’t use a traditional CRM like HubSpot or Salesforce. Simon explains that Buffer is a product-led company without a dedicated sales team. This means they don't need typical CRM functionalities like lead routing and scoring. Instead, Buffer relies heavily on data and product analytics to drive their marketing efforts.
The core of Buffer’s operations is their data warehouse, with Segment acting as their Customer Data Platform (CDP). This setup allows Buffer to integrate various tools and centralize crucial information. Mixpanel, their product analytics tool, is pivotal in this system. It gathers both product usage and marketing data, providing a comprehensive view of user interactions.
Simon highlights the importance of server-side tracking and integrating data from diverse sources such as AdWords, Customer.io, and Pendo. This integration helps Buffer understand the user lifecycle and measure the impact of marketing efforts beyond basic website metrics.
Tools like Customer.io are also essential for Buffer. It manages most user communications, making it a critical component of their stack. The combination of Mixpanel, Customer.io, and other integrated tools ensures that Buffer can seamlessly track and analyze user behavior.
Key takeaway: Not all B2B companies need a CRM or a sales team. A product-led approach, using robust data and product analytics tools, can effectively drive your marketing efforts and provide comprehensive insights into user behavior.
The Power of a Visual and Intuitive Automation Flow InterfaceSimon loves working in a smaller team like Buffer, where he can get hands-on with their tools daily. He highlights how Buffer uses Customer.io for their marketing automation, a tool he's familiar with from his previous experience at Shopify. Unlike Shopify, which eventually switched to Salesforce Marketing Cloud for more enterprise-level needs, Buffer continues to thrive with Customer.io.
Buffer relies on Customer.io to manage email marketing, push notifications for mobile apps, and various communication programs. Simon appreciates how the tool handles both marketing and transactional communications, offering a unified view of user interactions. This integration ensures consistency in messages, whether they're marketing emails or product notifications.
Simon praises Customer.io's user-friendly interface, especially the journey mapping functionality and the WYSIWYG editor, which make it accessible for non-technical team members. Despite its ease of use, the platform also boasts deep technical capabilities, allowing for extensive customization through HTML and API integrations. This flexibility has been crucial for Buffer's needs.
The integration with Segment, Buffer's Customer Data Platform (CDP), is particularly valuable. Simon emphasizes that having all data in Segment and seamlessly integrating it with Customer.io enables precise data handling. This setup ensures accurate and timely data flow, essential for personalized and effective marketing automation workflows.
Key takeaway: Even as a small team, you can effectively manage complex marketing automation needs by choosing user-friendly tools like Customer.io that offer both simplicity and deep customization. This approach allows your non-technical team members to contribute meaningfully while ensuring your technical needs are met, enhancing overall efficiency and personalization in your communications.
Experimentation and Holdout Testing at BufferExperimentation is a cornerstone of Buffer’s approach, and Simon is particularly enthusiastic about the capabilities provided by Customer.io. He explains that the platform's holdout testing functionality is essential for validating new programs and comparing campaign performance. Unlike some tools, Customer.io counts a delivery for the holdout group, simplifying the tracking process over time.
The integration with Segment and Mixpanel is a game-changer for Buffer. This setup allows them to surface Customer.io data in Mixpanel, creating unique reports and dashboards to support their experiments. Tracking differences in behavior between groups becomes straightforward, thanks to the detailed delivery events logged for both test and holdout groups. This level of detail ensures that Buffer can effectively measure the impact of their campaigns.
Simon also highlights the ease of A/B testing within Customer.io. Whether at the message level or within workflows, the platform’s randomization logic allows for extensive testing. Buffer can run tests on content, sequencing, and other variables, ensuring they continually optimize their marketing efforts. The ability to branch workflows and test different variants simultaneously is particularly valuable, enabling ongoing experimentation.
Key takeaway: Leverage holdout testing and detailed event tracking within your marketing automation tools to gain deeper insights into your campaign effectiveness. This approach allows you to validate new programs, compare performance, and optimize your strategies based on precise, data-driven insights.
Testing Journeys and Templating Language with QA Draft ModeSimon praises Customer.io's QA draft mode, a feature he finds invaluable for Buffer’s marketing automation. This functionality allows the team to build complex workflows, trigger off specific data points, and test the entire process in a production environment without actually sending emails. It’s a unique capability that Simon has not found in other tools, making it a standout feature of Customer.io.
Simon highlights how QA draft mode lets them see real users qualifying for different branches of the workflow while emails remain in draft. This means they can verify that users are correctly segmented and the emails look as intended, all without prematurely sending any messages. This testing phase is crucial for catching errors that might not be evident during initial previews.
Buffer has used this feature for several initiatives, such as new onboarding iterations and product notifications. Given the high frequency and volume of these emails, ensuring everything works perfectly before going live is essential. Simon appreciates that once the testing phase is complete, it only takes a click to start sending the validated emails to users.
This capability saves time and reduces the risk of errors in live campaigns. It allows Buffer to maintain high st...
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What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Ashleigh Johnson, Marketing Technologist at Microsoft.
Summary: Ashleigh gives us a glimpse into the enterprise world of martech, and it might not be what you’re expecting. She emphasizes embracing the unexpected by seeking diverse roles and rotational programs. Building a personal network within large organizations like Microsoft is crucial for navigating corporate silos. Curiosity and people skills, including shadowing colleagues and effective communication, are paramount. Ashleigh highlights the need for robust documentation and the strategic use of AI for routine tasks to boost productivity. Finally, she advocates for marketers to lead AI deployment, ensuring flexibility and innovation by empowering tool owners to make technology-driven decisions.
About Ashleigh
Ashleigh started her career at Trend Micro, a global cybersecurity company as a Sales and Marketing Associate with rotations as a Lead Qualification Rep, then a Marketing Coordinator and finally a marketing Ops and Automation associateEventually she would get promoted to Marketing Automation Manager where she was responsible for all things building, QA and campaigns across a variety of martechShe then took on the role of Senior Marketing Operations Manager at Cornerstone OnDemand, a talent experience platform where she rolled out a Content Intelligence tool and a Webinar engagement platformToday Ashleigh is Marketing Technologist at Microsoft on their Platform Operations team where she strategizes and consults on how the martech stack is used across different workstreams of the business
Embracing Openness in Marketing CareersAshleigh highlights the significance of being open-minded in the marketing industry. She reflects on her early career, noting that she had no idea what martech was when she started. College had prepared her for traditional marketing roles—branding, PR, content management—not martech. She envisioned a straightforward path in these areas but ended up somewhere entirely different.
Her entry into martech came by chance, thanks to a rotation program at Trend. This experience unveiled a whole new side of marketing she hadn’t considered. Ashleigh stresses that there’s much more to marketing than what college teaches. She urges young professionals and students to stay open to various roles and experiences.
Ashleigh advises against the narrow approach of targeting only specific job types based on college education. She encourages a broader perspective, exploring different facets of marketing, and being receptive to opportunities that might initially seem outside one's defined path. This openness can lead to surprising and rewarding career paths, as it did for her.
Her journey exemplifies the benefits of keeping career options open and exploring the full spectrum of the marketing industry. By stepping outside conventional boundaries, one can discover new and exciting opportunities in martech and beyond.
Key takeaway: Embrace the unexpected by diversifying your job search beyond traditional roles. Actively seek out rotational programs or internships that expose you to different facets of marketing. This strategy will help you uncover hidden opportunities and potentially lead to a more fulfilling and dynamic career path.
Navigating Martech Silos at Giant CorporationsWorking at a behemoth like Microsoft offers a unique perspective on martech operations. Ashleigh, who has been with the company for two and a half years, admits that the scale still overwhelms her. Coming from smaller enterprises where she handled marketing operations for the entire company, the shift to Microsoft’s segmented structure has been significant.
At her previous companies, Ashleigh was part of small, global marketing ops teams, typically ranging from three to seven people. These teams managed the martech stack across the entire organization. In stark contrast, Microsoft’s martech environment is vast and compartmentalized. Multiple teams handle different aspects, and Ashleigh often finds it challenging to keep track of all the players and their roles.
Ashleigh's current role focuses on supporting enterprise cloud products and services, specifically in a pre-sales capacity. There are separate teams for post-sales, gaming, hardware, and other areas, each with their own martech stacks and operations. The sheer size of the company means that even after years, she doesn’t know all the teams or their specific functions.
Adjusting to this environment has required a significant mindset shift for Ashleigh. She’s accustomed to having a comprehensive view of martech operations, working closely with marketing and sales, and understanding the big picture. At Microsoft, she’s had to accept a more siloed view, focusing on her specific area and recognizing that she won't have visibility into all parts of the company. It’s a continuous learning process, and embracing this limited scope has been a significant adjustment.
Key takeaway: When transitioning to a larger organization, prioritize building a personal network within your company. Regularly schedule coffee chats or brief meetings with colleagues from different teams to understand their roles and how they intersect with yours. This will help you navigate the segmented structure and foster a more collaborative and informed working environment.
Why Microsoft’s Fast-Paced Culture Beats the Slow Corporate MythAshleigh values the collaborative culture at Microsoft. One of her favorite aspects is working with diverse teams and individuals. In such a large organization, there’s a role for everything, which means constantly interacting with new colleagues. This variety keeps her projects dynamic and introduces her to smart, creative minds across different domains.
When addressing common criticisms of enterprise environments, Ashleigh counters the notion that things move slowly. Contrary to the stereotype, she finds Microsoft’s pace anything but sluggish. There’s always a project in motion, and new initiatives constantly arise. This fast-paced environment ensures that her work remains engaging and ever-evolving.
Another positive is the breadth of experience she gains. Unlike the narrow focus some might expect, Ashleigh’s work spans various aspects of martech. Her background in events has expanded to encompass broader martech roles, offering her new perspectives and skills outside her previous specialization. This variety keeps her job interesting and allows her to grow continuously.
The enterprise environment at Microsoft provides Ashleigh with both depth and breadth in her career. She appreciates the chance to collaborate with a wide range of professionals and tackle diverse projects, all while maintaining a fast-paced, stimulating work environment.
Key takeaway: To maximize your growth in a large organization, actively seek out cross-functional projects that require collaboration with different teams. This approach will not only broaden your skill set but also help you build a diverse professional network, keeping your work dynamic and your career development continuous.
Why Curiosity Outranks Experience in Martech CareersCuriosity has been a cornerstone of Ashleigh's career in martech. She attributes much of her success to her insatiable curiosity and willingness to figure things out on her own. Unlike traditional roles with clear guidelines, martech often lacks a roadmap. This absence of predefined instructions demands a curious mindset, constantly seeking to understand how tools and technologies work.
Ashleigh enjoys shadowing senior team members, a practice she values dee...
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What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Siobhan Solberg, data privacy consultant and advisor.
Summary: Siobhan takes on a behind-the-scenes look at the hidden mechanics of data privacy, ethical marketing practices, and effective data management. Marketers often overlook the importance of data privacy, but the increase in data breaches shows that people do care about their data. To address this, marketers should experience tools from the customer’s perspective, implement regular data reviews, and foster collaboration between marketing and compliance teams. By breaking down the user journey into distinct phases, they can attribute value more effectively while minimizing data collection. Focusing on key metrics and regularly auditing for dark patterns will enhance user experience without deception. Prioritizing ethical practices and transparency builds trust and leads to more informed decisions and stronger customer relationships.
About Siobhan
Siobhan started her career as a classical musician in NY where she had various teaching roles, specializing in violin and violaSiobhan later moved abroad and pivoted to a content role at a media agency where she would spend almost 4 years working her way up to CRO Manager and later Head of BI & Optimization and finally CMOShe completed her Certified Information Privacy Manager and joined an accelerator programOn the back of this experience, Siobhan founded Raze a niche agency specializing solely in the measurement and optimisation of marketing data – which she ran for 5 successful yearsShe’s also the co-host of Marketing Unfucked, a podcast about all things data, ethics and privacy for marketing She’s currently studying towards an Advanced Masters of Laws in Privacy, Cybersecurity and Data ManagementToday she’s working as a data privacy consultant and advisor to tech startups who want to get it right from the start
Privacy Concerns and Cultural Differences in Data HandlingSiobhan dives straight into the issue of privacy and its varying levels of importance across different regions. She highlights a stark contrast between the United States and the European Union regarding privacy regulations and cultural attitudes. In the US, the adoption of stringent privacy measures lags significantly, partly due to cultural differences and the absence of comprehensive regulations. This has allowed some companies to exploit these gaps by selling data products that would be deemed illegal in many other parts of the world.
When asked about the prevalence of tools that exploit privacy laws and whether people genuinely care about their personal data being resold, Siobhan points out an interesting dichotomy. She references studies, particularly from the Netherlands, showing that while many people claim to care about privacy, their actions often tell a different story. There is a significant gap between expressing concern for privacy and taking concrete steps to protect it.
Siobhan believes that at a deeper level, everyone does care about their privacy. She mentions the common justification of having "nothing to hide" as a coping mechanism for the lack of control individuals feel over their personal data. This helplessness leads many to adopt a nonchalant attitude towards privacy. However, as incidents of data misuse and the ramifications of lost privacy become more apparent, even those previously indifferent are beginning to take notice.
In the European Union, the implementation of strict privacy regulations has fostered a culture of awareness and proactive measures. This early adoption has forced companies and individuals to prioritize privacy. Conversely, in the US, the conversation is only now gaining momentum, driven by emerging state regulations and the increasing misuse of personal data through advanced technologies like AI. This growing awareness is slowly shifting the cultural landscape towards a more privacy-conscious mindset.
Key takeaway: Challenge the notion that people don't care about privacy. Actively take steps to protect your data and demand transparency from companies, as the growing awareness and incidents of data misuse show that everyone values their privacy more than they might admit.
Why Marketers Must Rethink Privacy and Ethical PracticesSiobhan gets straight to the heart of ethical marketing. Marketers often face the challenge of using tools that skirt privacy laws. The advice she offers is simple: put yourself in the customer's shoes. She believes this empathetic approach is crucial. It’s a lesson we teach kids about bullying—how would you feel if it happened to you? Marketers should apply the same principle to their practices.
When asked about using questionable tools, Siobhan emphasizes the need to consider personal feelings. How would you feel if your email was shared without consent? Or if your personal information was used to cold email you? Most people wouldn’t appreciate it. Marketers need to step back and think about the human impact of their actions.
Siobhan points out a fascinating contradiction: many marketers use ad blockers themselves. They don’t want to see ads, yet they’re creating them for others. This highlights a disconnect. By putting themselves in the recipient’s shoes, marketers can make more ethical decisions. This approach doesn’t just make legal sense—it’s about making the right choice morally.
Cultural differences also play a role. Siobhan recalls a trip to Korea, where CCTV cameras are ubiquitous. What’s normal there might feel invasive elsewhere. Marketers must consider these cultural nuances. By understanding the context, they can make choices that respect privacy across different regions. The goal is to balance legality and ethics, making marketing more humane.
Key takeaway: Evaluate your marketing tools by experiencing them as a customer first. Before deploying any tool, use it on yourself to understand the privacy implications and emotional impact. This practice helps you make more ethical and customer-friendly decisions.
Avoiding Creepy Data Practices in Personalized MarketingMarketers often face the challenge of balancing necessary data tracking with personalization without crossing into creepy territory. Siobhan addresses this by acknowledging the delicate nature of data collection. Marketers need data to do their jobs effectively, but they must avoid overstepping boundaries. She recalls her time in measurement and technical marketing, describing it as a playground where data was plentiful, and the possibilities were endless. However, she emphasizes that what was once fun and innovative can now be seen as invasive.
When asked about maintaining this balance, Siobhan suggests that marketers must be mindful of consent. If a user willingly shares their data and understands the implications, marketers should feel free to use it. However, it's crucial to ensure that the user is genuinely aware of what they are agreeing to. The key is transparency and clear communication about data usage.
Siobhan also highlights the importance of being selective with data. Instead of collecting everything just in case, marketers should focus on the data they will actually use. This approach not only respects user privacy but also makes data management more efficient. Aggregated data can provide valuable insights without compromising individual privacy.
Finally, Siobhan acknowledges that balancing ethical considerations with business needs is not easy. Marketers must navigate regulations and user expectations while striving to achieve their goals. The challenge lies in finding creative solutions that respect privacy and deliver personalized experience...
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What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Sam Oh, VP of Marketing at Ahrefs.
Summary: Sam takes us on a masterclass covering SEO fundamentals, evolving search behaviors, AI in content marketing, refreshing attribution thoughts and work-life balance strategies. He advises sticking to proven SEO fundamentals and understanding search intent to meet audience needs. As search behavior evolves with tools like ChatGPT, he highlights the need for a diversified strategy across multiple platforms. He advocates for thoughtful AI integration to enhance research and streamline content creation. Finally, Sam shares Ahrefs' approach of prioritizing product quality and user-centric content over detailed attribution models, focusing on broad success indicators for effective decision-making and a fulfilling professional life.
About Sam
As a fresh Toronto grad out of University, Sam started a service based ecommerce site and got into black hat SEOHe grew traffic to this site and eventually sold it, this led Sam to “retire” – briefly – before experimenting with niche sites – he had one of those also acquiredHe also built an Amazon and Ebay business, where he would buy pallets of return goods from big merchandise stores and started a refurbishing center and reselling those goods online while sharpening his SEO skillsHe founded Money Journal where he published long form guides to help entrepreneurs grow their traffic and drive revenueThis naturally led Sam to co-founding a successful SEO and digital agency… but after a while, he was on kid number two and realized he wanted to leave the hustle lifestyleHe tried to get Ahrefs as a client for his agency by applying for a job and trying to turn it into a contract basis but in the end they won out and turned Sam into an employeeHe started without a title and was just asked to create educational videos and he turned that into as Director of Product Education and today he’s Sam is VP of Marketing at Ahrefs
Why Entrepreneurs Need to Rethink Work Life BalanceSam's path to Ahrefs was anything but traditional. Instead of following the common route of balancing entrepreneurial ventures with full-time roles, he fully immersed himself in starting businesses. From e-commerce to marketplace experiments, he thrived on innovation and problem-solving. But the relentless grind eventually took its toll, especially after a significant setback with Google's Penguin update on his first e-commerce site.
As he clocked in 16-17 hour days, the birth of his second child prompted a shift in priorities. The thought of missing out on his children's lives pushed Sam to rethink his approach. Was he destined to work endlessly or could he find a way to balance family and career? This question became pivotal as he sought more meaningful work-life integration.
Sam's connection with Ahrefs began as a client pursuit. After months of discussions with Tim Soulo, they decided to collaborate. Initially, Sam held onto his agency, unsure of the future. However, the move to Ahrefs proved to be an excellent match. The company offered him full autonomy and creative control, backed by substantial budgets and resources.
At Ahrefs, Sam feels a strong sense of ownership. The company's culture of trust and freedom aligns perfectly with his entrepreneurial spirit. This environment allows him to apply his skills effectively, achieving professional success without sacrificing personal fulfillment.
Key takeaway: Entrepreneurs often face the challenge of overcommitting to their ventures at the expense of personal life. Reassess priorities and seek roles that align with your values and lifestyle. Find work that offers autonomy and creative freedom so you can prioritize professional success and personal fulfillment.
SEO Experts Need to Stop Obsessing Over Algorithm Updates
Sam addresses the constant flux in the SEO world. His advice is refreshingly simple: focus on what works. Many SEO consultants, like the one asking the question, find themselves overwhelmed by the relentless updates and algorithm changes. Sam suggests that if your current strategies are effective, there’s no need to chase every new development.
For those engaging in practices clearly against Google’s guidelines, staying updated is crucial. However, for most people working on technical SEO—handling internal linking, crawling, and similar tasks—the updates can be more noise than necessity. The key is to concentrate on proven methods and adjust only when a significant change directly impacts your work.
Sam likens this to the hype around ChatGPT, where exaggerated claims cause unnecessary panic. He points out that this noise can lead to irrational fears, such as interns doubting their career choices. Instead of getting caught up in every new trend, it's better to stay grounded and focus on tangible results.
Ultimately, Sam’s approach is to avoid the hysteria surrounding new updates and technologies. He emphasizes the importance of sticking to solid SEO practices and avoiding the distractions that come with every new development.
Key takeaway: Focus on what works and avoid getting caught up in every SEO update. Don’t let every minor change disrupt your workflow. Concentrate on proven strategies and adapt only when necessary.
SEO Is Here to Stay Despite AI and Algorithm Changes
Sam doesn't believe SEO is dying anytime soon. The need to sort and index information isn't going away. Whether it's Google, YouTube, Pinterest, or Reddit, every platform with a search feature relies on SEO. Despite the industry's perennial claims of its demise, SEO remains crucial for organizing and optimizing content across the internet.
He addresses the divide within the SEO community: those who adhere to white hat tactics and those who dabble in black hat methods. The latter often tarnish the industry's reputation. Despite this, the fundamentals of SEO—technical optimization, quality content, and understanding search intent—continue to hold strong. Sam compares the scenario to the stock market, with pessimists always predicting crashes. He attributes some of the criticism to frustrations with search results often filled with copycat content, which he sees as a consequence of optimizing for search intent.
People tend to blame SEOs when they see repetitive content in search results. Sam explains that this is a result of everyone trying to match search intent, which can lead to similar content being ranked. He acknowledges that this might cause users to think SEO is at fault, but he views it as part of the game. SEOs are tasked with demonstrating to Google that their page is the best result for a query, often within the constraints of Google's guidelines.
Sam is confident that SEO won't be replaced soon. While AI and other technologies might change aspects of the industry, the core need for SEO remains. The industry will continue to evolve, but the fundamental skills and strategies of SEOs will stay relevant.
Key takeaway: SEO remains essential as long as search engines exist. Technical optimization, quality content creation, and understanding search intent are timeless strategies that remain effective despite algorithm changes and AI advancements.
How Content Marketers Can Stay Relevant with AI
Sam argues that SEO and content marketing are here to stay, even with the rise of AI. The key to thriving lies in effort, experience, and experimentation. Ryan Law’s article on this topic resonates with Sam, who emphasizes these principles for standing out in a crowded field.
Effort is paramount. Understanding your audience and delivering precisely what they need sets you apart. ...
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What’s up folks. We’ve got a fun episode today. If you’re a regular listener, you’ve heard me mention an article that’s been living rent free in my head for a while now.
Casey Winters, the former CPO at Eventbrite and an Instructor at Reforge, wrote an article titled “The Problems With Martech, and Why Martech is Actually for Engineers”. I’ve asked a lot of recent guests what their thoughts were on some of the arguments raised in the article. So today we’re going to respond to his claims.
Summary: Should you buy a 3rd party martech solution or build your own in-house tool, the answer is almost always buy. Let your in-house engineers focus on product and data while leveraging the cutting-edge solutions and support offered by specialized martech vendors. Unless you’re planning on building a martech company, leave the martech to the experts. Homegrown tools aren’t appealing to marketers, they’re hard to scale, most have a shitty UI and it’s not a recognisable martech tool you can add to your resume. Not only are homegrown martech tools not appealing to marketers, they are even less appealing to engineers. Engineers can’t stand the chaos of marketing and effective martech implementation requires collaboration between engineers and marketers, highlighting the need for cross-functional translators and disproving the claim that martech is actually only for engineers.
Martech Has Continued to Explode as a CategorySo the article we’re debating was written in 2019, that’s 5 years ago. That’s a boatload of time in martech so we can’t fault the author too much and I respect his bold claims. He starts off by stating:
“I hate martech, and think martech will decline as a category, and most martech businesses will not be very successful.”
Now we could spend a whole episode disproving this prediction… but obviously we have 5 years of hindsight.
But it is worth mentioning that he made this prediction on the year (2019) where the martech landscape exploded past 7,000 tools. Pretty bold to claim that it will decline as a category given the meteoric rise of tools up from only 350 in 2012. Scott Brinker recently released the state of martech in 2024 report which his team says they’ve seen the “largest number of new apps added to the martech landscape in the 13 years they’ve been curating it: net new growth of approximately 3,000 new tools.”
We’ve crossed 13,000 tools, nearly doubling the landscape from 2019 when Casey made his “bold prediction” that martech will decline as a category.
Number of tools isn’t the only way to evaluate whether martech has declined or not.
I’m not a big fan of Gartner reports but if that’s a more trusted source for you, they reported that in 2023 client organizations spent over 1/4 of their marketing budgets on technology. In terms of VC investments, LUMA reported a steady rise in martech acquisitions in Q3 of 2023, averaging over 40 per quarter, alongside substantial capital inflows into new ventures. This financial backing underscores confidence in the industry's future.
Okay… so Casey was wrong about martech declining as a category. But he did have some interesting arguments about why.
His main thesis is that: Martech faces decline due to in-house engineers who are increasingly handling tailored solutions in-house, and the success of vendors hinges primarily on serving those engineers, not marketers.
I’ve asked 8 recent guests on the podcast to read Casey’s article and share their thoughts.
What’s your take on this? Is martech actually for engineers?
Homegrown Marketing Technology Isn’t Attractive for Marketers or EngineersMartech Just Isn’t that Appealing for Most Engineers
Vish Gupta, Marketing Operations Manager at Databricks shared her perspective on whether martech is truly designed for engineers, challenging pretty much every single one of Casey’s viewpoints.
She started by expressing her disagreement with the idea that martech will decline due to competition from in-house engineers and platform limitations. "I don't think martech is the sexiest thing for an engineer to do," she noted. Vish argued that talented engineers building martech are more likely to work for CRM companies to enhance their products rather than find in-house martech development appealing.
Vish explained that building a CRM in-house is often not the best approach. She emphasized that knowing popular systems like Customerio, Marketo, and HubSpot adds more value. She questioned the practicality of finding the right talent for in-house solutions, given the complexities and specialized skills required.
Regarding the idea that successful martech companies cater primarily to engineers, Vish disagreed. "Martech teams are actually part engineer, part product marketer, part IT person, part biz ops," she said. She believes the value of an operations professional lies not in owning and maintaining tech but in resolving business problems by aligning the right people, technology, and tools to accelerate pipeline generation. The engineering work in martech spans across data, data engineering, IT, and business operations, but this is just one aspect of a martech professional's role.
Vish also questioned the notion that the rise of in-house engineers creating tailored solutions for their companies will lead to a decline in martech. "Just because you can, should you?" she asked. She emphasized the importance of a good quantification model and total cost of ownership (TCO) analysis when comparing in-house engineering teams to martech solutions.
She highlighted the challenges of integrating customer and product data in a compliant manner, which often requires a holistic approach. "It's not just your martech stack; where's your customer data living? Where is your product data living?" Vish noted. These challenges often make martech an operational project rather than just a marketing function.
Ultimately, Vish believes that martech will never be just for engineering. The value of a martech professional lies in understanding what marketers want to achieve and enabling them to get there. "The value is being able to see this is what the marketer wants to do, and here’s how we can enable them to get there and measure success," she explained. This holistic view is crucial for martech to function effectively, a perspective she feels engineers alone may not fully capture.
Key takeaway: In-house martech development is off-putting for most seasoned marketers. The preference is usually with popular systems like Customerio and HubSpot. Also, Martech just isn't that appealing to engineers. So martech can’t just be for engineers, it requires a blend of skills from marketing, IT, and operations. The real value of martech lies in enabling marketers and measuring success, a role not easily filled by engineers.
Engineers Can’t Stand the Chaos of Marketing
So far we’ve uncovered two themes: Marketers don’t find homegrown tools that appealing and engineers don’t find martech sexy. But why? Why isn’t martech appealing for engineers?
Let’s hear from the legendary Sara McNamara, former Senior Manager, Marketing Operations at Salesforce.. Her answer stemmed from the complexities and cultural challenges of integrating engineering into marketing operations.
Sara began by acknowledging the trend of engineers becoming more involved in creating custom solutions for marketing. However, she expressed skepticism about marketing operations teams becoming predominantly composed of engineers. She explained, "A lot of the engineers I've worked with cannot stand the chaos of marketing."
Engineers typically prefer clear requirements and stable projects, while marketing often involves rapid changes and freque...
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What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Vish Gupta, Marketing Operations Manager at Databricks.
Summary: This episode with Vish is jam packed with advice for marketers making their way through the martech galaxy. We touch on the pitfalls of Frankenstein stacks and the perks of self-service martech. Vish explains why martech isn't just for engineers and highlights the efficiency of customized Asana intake forms. We also tackle the dangers of over-specialization for senior leaders. Additionally, we explore the intersection of martech and large language models (LLMs), providing insights on how to stay ahead in the evolving landscape.
About Vish
Vish started started her career as a Business Analyst in sales ops at Riverbed, a network management companyShe later joined Redis Labs – a real time data platform – as a Marketing Coordinator and got her first taste of analytics and reporting covering social, paid and eventsShe had a short contract at Brocade where she was Marketing Ops specialist and worked closely with their data science team to develop marketing reporting using BIShe then joined VMware, the popular virtualization software giant just before they were acquired by Broadcom. She was both a marketing analyst and later shifted to Growth Analyst where she focused more on Go to market strategyToday Vish is Marketing Operations Manager at Databricks, a leader in data and AI tech valued at more than 40B
Influences from a Tech-Infused ChildhoodVish’s upbringing in a tech-savvy household shaped her career path significantly. Her parents, immigrants from India, transitioned into tech for better opportunities, despite initial dreams of cricket and architecture. This drive for a better lifestyle through technology was a core narrative in her family.
Interestingly, Vish initially rebelled against this tech-centric world. She pursued psychology, striving to carve out her unique path. However, practicality led her back to tech, aligning her career with her desired lifestyle. This shift wasn't romantic but highlighted her adaptability and strategic thinking.
Her parents' relentless upskilling and enthusiasm for technology left a lasting impression. Their constant engagement with new tools and innovations inspired Vish to embrace learning and staying current with tech trends. This mindset proved invaluable in her role at Databricks, where technological adeptness is key.
Growing up in Silicon Valley provided Vish with a unique network and role models in tech. This environment, combined with her parents' stories and actions, underscored the importance of tech as a vehicle for advancement and success.
Key takeaway: Vish's tech-centric upbringing, driven by her immigrant parents' pursuit of better opportunities, significantly shaped her career. Despite initially rebelling by studying psychology, practicality led her back to tech, showcasing her adaptability. Her parents' continuous upskilling inspired her commitment to learning, crucial in her role at Databricks.
Why Your Frankenstein Martech Stack is Sabotaging Your SuccessA Frankenstein martech stack is like a tech monster stitched together from mismatched parts, always on the brink of chaos. Avoiding the creation of a Frankenstein stack is challenging for any marketing operations team who is trying to stay on top of new tools. Vish’s mantra is that tools are not problem-solvers on their own; people and processes are the real drivers of solutions.
She’s a big proponent of understanding the role each tool plays within the organization. It's crucial to ask, "What is this tool doing?" If a tool isn't effectively serving a business purpose or hasn't been adopted well, it might be time to retire it. Simplification is key before automation. An overly complex or constantly changing process isn't a good candidate for automation.
Vish points out a common misconception: the belief that automating everything is the ultimate solution. In reality, automating a clunky or inefficient process can exacerbate issues rather than resolve them. The focus should be on simplifying processes first. Only after streamlining should organizations consider tools that enhance efficiency.
In practice, this means critically assessing each tool's contribution to the business. If a tool no longer serves its purpose or complicates processes, it's time to reconsider its place in the stack. Automation should follow simplification, ensuring that processes are as straightforward as possible before adding layers of technology.
Key takeaway: Simplification should precede automation. Marketers must critically evaluate their tools and processes, focusing on streamlining before leveraging automation. This approach prevents the creation of a cumbersome, Frankenstein-like martech stack—a tech monster stitched together from mismatched parts, always on the brink of chaos.
Empowering Campaign Ops with Self-Serve ModelsSetting up self-service models for campaigns is like to an all-you-can-eat buffet, where the food is already prepared, and you simply pick and choose what you want. In the realm of campaign operations, enabling self-service means providing users with the right tools and training, allowing them to be effective without the need for constant support.
One such tool, Knak, plays a pivotal role in this self-service approach for Databricks. Vish explains that Knak allows users to create emails independently without needing to delve into their automation platform. This system keeps users out of the intricate details of their MAP, reducing the burden on the marketing operations team while still enabling efficient email creation. By using Knak, the process is streamlined: users work within Knak, sync their work to their MAP, perform quality assurance, and then execute their campaigns. This seamless integration not only simplifies operations but also enhances efficiency.
Vish highlights the potential pitfalls of a full self-service model, where multiple users could potentially create chaos within their MAP. Instead, she advocates for a balanced approach, where specific components of the campaign process are made self-service. This method provides a win-win situation for both the operations team and the front-end users. The key is finding tools that allow for this partial self-service model, thereby maintaining control while empowering users.
Knak was introduced to replace a previous tool that failed to meet expectations. Vish was part of the decision-making process, although the team had several champions for Knak and a supportive leader confident in their ability to select the right vendor. This collective decision-making and confidence in the tool have led to a successful implementation, demonstrating the importance of team involvement and leadership support in adopting new technologies.
Key takeaway: Empowering users with the right self-service tools like Knak can streamline campaign operations and reduce the burden on the marketing team. A balanced approach to self-service can prevent chaos while maximizing efficiency.
Why Martech Shouldn't Cater Exclusively to EngineersWhen asked if martech is really geared towards engineers, Vish provided a nuanced perspective. She finds the notion that martech should cater exclusively to engineers rather unsettling. For Vish, her expertise lies in mastering popular systems like Marketo and HubSpot, not engineering. She raises a compelling point about the value of specialized martech knowledge, emphasizing that the real worth of a martech professional is their ability to understand and implement what marketers need, not merely to build systems from scratch...
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What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Carmen Simon, Chief Science Officer at Corporate Visions and Brain Science Instructor at Stanford CS.
Summary: Carmen takes us on an adventure exploring the wonders of brain science and how to sustain attention through contrast. We cover embodied cognition, deviating from expected patterns and avoiding the sea of sameness in AI content. We also take a detour into the speculative future of neuroscience and making data impactful through context.
About Carmen
Carmen has spent her career in multimedia design, writing books, creating and selling companies, and more recently conducting brain science research. She wrote ‘Impossible to Ignore’ – A groundbreaking approach to creating memorable messages that are easy to process, hard to forgetShe started (and still is) at Stanford Continuing Studies teaching several brain science coursesAnd today she’s Chief Science Officer at Corporate Visions where she runs neuroscience research to help businesses increase their persuasive powerShe also recently published another book called Made You Look – a full-color image packed guide on developing persuasive content
Embodied Cognition in MarketingCarmen highlights the rising trend of embodied cognition in neuroscience. This concept suggests that our brain’s attention, memory formation, and decision-making are influenced by the interaction between the brain, body, and environment. It's not just mental processes but physical engagement that shapes our cognitive functions.
She offers practical advice for marketers: involve your audience physically. For example, during a sales presentation or team meeting, encourage note-taking. This simple act engages multiple parts of the body, enhancing memory and focus. In Carmen’s studies, participants who took notes during sessions retained information better than those who just listened.
The key is to move beyond passive engagement. Traditional methods often required participants to stay still, but advancements in neuroscience now allow for physical involvement without compromising data accuracy. So, telling your audience to write things down can make a significant difference in how well they remember and engage with your content.
This becomes more challenging in remote settings like Zoom. The temptation to type notes digitally is strong, leading to potential distractions. Carmen’s research shows that while digital note-takers wrote more, those who handwrote their notes retained and synthesized information better. Handwriting forces individuals to summarize and critically engage with the content, enhancing the quality of their notes and memory retention.
Carmen’s insights suggest that integrating physical activities into your marketing strategies can create a more immersive and memorable experience for your audience. This approach not only boosts engagement but also helps in building stronger connections and better information retention.
Key takeaway: Encourage physical involvement in your marketing efforts. Simple acts like note-taking can enhance engagement and retention, leveraging the principles of embodied cognition for more effective and memorable interactions.
Enhancing Virtual Engagement with Body CuesCarmen discusses an intriguing neuroscience study comparing brain activity when showing products through slides versus using a whiteboard. She emphasizes that using a whiteboard engages people more effectively. The physical act of drawing grabs attention and creates a dynamic visual experience. When the audience is encouraged to draw along, this engagement deepens even further.
Encouraging participants to draw along creates a shared physical activity, reinforcing memory retention. This technique leverages embodied cognition, where physical movement aids cognitive processes. Carmen’s study showed superior recall effects for those who engaged in drawing versus those who only watched slides. After 48 hours, participants who drew remembered more, highlighting the power of active involvement.
In a virtual setting, applying these principles requires creativity and discipline. For instance, you can ask participants to take control of the mouse during a demo or encourage them to use a digital whiteboard. Despite the challenges of remote interactions, these physical cues remain crucial for memory retention. Carmen’s research indicates that handwriting notes leads to better retention than typing, emphasizing the need to integrate physical activities in digital environments.
Carmen urges marketers to rescue the practice of whiteboarding, even in virtual settings. The visual and physical engagement it provides can significantly enhance memory and decision-making. By reintroducing these techniques, marketers can create lasting impressions and foster better audience connections.
Key takeaway: Integrate physical activities like whiteboarding in virtual settings to enhance engagement and memory retention. Encouraging your audience to draw along or take notes by hand can lead to more effective and memorable interactions.
Sustaining Attention Through ContrastCarmen dispels the myth of shrinking attention spans, emphasizing that humans are capable of sustained focus if the stimulus is engaging enough. She notes that from a biological and evolutionary perspective, our ability to concentrate hasn't diminished. The key is to make the content interesting and relevant. As an example, think about how many hours people can spend binge-watching TV shows when they're captivated.
Carmen challenges marketers to think about how to capture and hold attention. The competition for focus is fierce, and at any moment, people can easily switch to something else. To stand out, marketers need to make their offerings compelling and distinct. This involves creating engaging experiences that resonate with the audience on a deeper level.
One effective technique Carmen mentions is using contrast to create a noticeable difference between your content and that of others. The brain needs at least a 30% difference to perceive something as distinct. For marketers, this means clearly differentiating their solutions from the competition. It's not enough to claim that your product is better; the contrast must be perceptible and significant.
She highlights the importance of making your marketing content unique and memorable. In a crowded field, ensuring that your message stands out is crucial. This can be achieved by presenting information in a way that is markedly different from others, creating a strong and lasting impression.
Key takeaway: Create engaging and distinct content to capture and maintain attention. Use contrast effectively to differentiate your offerings, ensuring they stand out in a crowded market. This approach helps in making your marketing efforts more impactful and memorable.
Deviate From Expected Patterns and Create Memorable ImpactCarmen highlights a significant distinction between human and AI-generated content: the power of human touch. She emphasizes that for the brain to perceive distinctiveness, it must first recognize patterns. This means that not every aspect of your marketing needs to be unique. Instead, marketers should identify areas of sameness and then have the courage to deviate from those patterns to create a memorable impact.
One compelling example Carmen shares involves Krispy Kreme's daring marketing approach. They ran an ad with the headline, "Donuts are bad for you," a stark contrast to their usual “Donuts are life” messaging but also the typical health-centric marketing messages. This distinctiveness, paired with a c...
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What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Michael Rumiantsau, Co-Founder and CEO at Narrative BI.
Summary: This episode delves into the future of Business Intelligence, highlighting AI's role in democratizing data for marketers, automating insights with LLMs, and the importance of anomaly detection. Michael’s on a mission to make data insights accessible and useful for everyone, not just experts, by leveraging AI to provide tailored, easy-to-understand insights that boost decision-making. The episode also discusses how proprietary data gives companies a competitive edge in the AI market by refining models and creating tailored solutions, while well-structured data sources enhance natural language query tools. Anomaly detection is crucial for quickly identifying issues and uncovering new opportunities, with tools like Narrative BI automating alerts for unusual patterns, reducing the need for constant monitoring, and enabling more strategic decisions. Michael explains how Narrative BI, an augmented analytics platform, not only presents data but also provides context, explains trends, and suggests actionable steps, helping marketers focus on significant changes and improve performance.
About Michael
Michael started his career as an electronics engineer and then a backend software engineer where he dived into web dev, db management and API integrationsHe later took on the challenge of being CTO at an IT startup called Flatlogic based in BelarusHe then moved to San Francisco and founded a web and mobile dev consultancy which he ran alongside co-founding a natural language search startup called FriendlyData with a mission of democratizing access to data He went through 500 Startups, a VC seed fund acceleration programFriendlyData was acquired by ServiceNow in less than 3 years and Michael went on to join the company in a central product role to help develop their Natural Query Language AI toolHe’s also an investor at founders.ai, a startup platform for disruptive SaaS productsHis latest entrepreneurial endeavor is Narrative BI, a generative analytics platform that helps growth teams turn raw data into actionable narratives
Deciding When to Commit Fully to Your StartupStarting a business varies greatly depending on personal circumstances. Michael explains that while it might be easier for a young, single entrepreneur to take the plunge, it's a different story for someone with a family. Despite these differences, one thing is clear: at some point, you must go all in. Without full commitment, building something substantial is unlikely.
Michael highlights the need to have "skin in the game." This means demonstrating serious commitment, which can convince others to support you. Investors, for example, are more likely to back someone who has shown they are fully invested. For Michael, this commitment meant leaving a secure, high-paying job and investing his own money into his venture, Narrative BI.
Michael’s story shows the kind of dedication required. He left behind a seven-figure salary to pursue his startup. This kind of personal risk can be a powerful motivator and a strong signal to potential investors and team members. Making the transition from a stable job to a startup isn’t just a career move; it's a significant life decision that requires careful thought and total commitment.
Key takeaway: Aspiring founders need to move from part-time dreamers to full-time entrepreneurs. Taking this leap is crucial for success. Without it, the foundation of your startup may remain weak. It’s about believing in your vision enough to put everything on the line.
Encouraging Entrepreneurial Spirit in EmployeesMichael isn’t on his first entrepreneurial venture. He believes expecting startup employees to match a founder's dedication is unrealistic. Founders often work around the clock due to their significant equity stakes, but employees with smaller shares shouldn't be pressured to do the same.
Michael values his employees' time and boundaries. He doesn't track how many hours they work, focusing instead on their contributions. This approach creates a healthier work environment, where employees feel appreciated for their results, not just their hours.
He also encourages side hustles. For Michael, these ventures aren't distractions; they're sources of valuable experience that can benefit the company. His small team of eight includes individuals with diverse entrepreneurial backgrounds, with many already engaged in other income-generating activities. Michael sees this diversity as an advantage, bringing fresh ideas and perspectives to the company. This is a refreshing perspective coming from a founder and not shared by everyone. Shopify CEO for example is well known for discouraging side hustles and expects unshared attention from his team.
Michael takes pride in his employees' entrepreneurial efforts. If someone leaves to start their own company, he sees it as a success and supports them fully. By fostering an entrepreneurial spirit, he believes his team becomes more innovative and motivated.
Key takeaway: Supporting employees' side hustles and respecting their work-life balance can lead to a more innovative and motivated team. Encouraging entrepreneurial efforts within the team benefits both the company and the individuals, fostering a culture of mutual growth.
Future of Business IntelligenceBI is here to stay. Michael points out that despite its $30 billion market size and growing influence, BI tools are still primarily designed for data specialists. In even the most advanced tech companies, adoption rates hover around 20-25%, leaving a vast majority of knowledge workers without direct access to valuable data insights.
Michael sees a significant opportunity in democratizing BI. He believes every knowledge worker should access data insights, regardless of their technical background. This can be achieved through automated or AI-generated insights, making data more accessible to those who make critical business decisions but lack deep data expertise.
Discussing dashboards, Michael notes their static nature as a limitation. Traditional dashboards rely on predefined metrics and queries, which can miss the nuances of a constantly evolving business environment. The static approach often results in overlooked insights that could be pivotal.
Michael envisions a future where BI tools are dynamic, AI-powered, and user-friendly. This would allow real-time insights tailored to specific roles and individuals, enhancing decision-making processes across all organizational levels. By enabling a broader audience to harness the power of data, the potential impact of BI could be far greater than ever imagined.
Key takeaway: The future of BI lies in making data insights accessible and actionable for all employees, not just data experts. Embracing AI-powered, dynamic tools can help businesses stay ahead by providing real-time, personalized insights, fostering a culture of informed decision-making.
AI's Role in Democratizing Data for Knowledge WorkersMichael acknowledges that while BI tools are a boon for data enthusiasts, their complexity often hinders wider adoption among knowledge workers. Even with advanced natural language query tools, users need to understand database structures, table names, and relationships. This level of data literacy is uncommon among marketers and executives, creating a significant barrier.
AI offers a promising solution to this challenge by proactively generating insights. Instead of waiting for users to ask specific questions, AI can analyze data trends and patterns to provide pers...
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What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Michele Nieberding, Director of Product Marketing at MetaRouter.
Summary: Michele takes us on a broad journey across job hopping, learning technical martech products, preparing for the cookie apocalypse and diving deep into the world of server side data processions and tag management. Her transition from sales to product marketing sparked new growth, blending her enthusiasm for learning technical martech products with practical strategies to improve sales outcomes. She emphasizes the importance of ethical marketing practices, like enhancing first-party data and focusing on consent management, crucial for building consumer trust. Michele also explores the benefits of server-side data processing, such as using systems like MetaRouter for real-time data handling, which improves site performance, data security, and compliance. This technical shift supports her broader view on the integration of marketing with data science, stressing the need for solid data management to navigate the complexities of modern marketing and data privacy laws effectively.
About Michele
Michele started her career in sales at Cvent, a meetings and events management software provider She later had a short stint as a marketing consultant at Fishbowl a restaurant platform And then joined a CRM company called Merkle as a Digital Marketing Manager where she wore a variety of marketing hatsThis made her boomerang back to Cvent, but this time as a Product Marketing Manager where she would spend another 2 years with the companyShe later took on the role of Senior PMM at Qualtrics, an online customer experience management platformThis led her to an exciting role leading Solutions Marketing at Iterable, where she was eventually promoted to Director of Product MarketingMichele is also an Executive Mentor at Cornell UniversityToday she’s Director of Product Marketing at MetaRouter, a Customer Data Infrastructure startup
Why Job Hopping Can Be a Green FlagWhen asked about the recent commentary from a CEO criticizing frequent job changes and claiming that you need to stay at a company at least 4 years to achieve anything worthwhile. Michele offered a compelling counterpoint that challenges old school views on career progression. Her journey in the tech industry illustrates the value of embracing various roles across different companies, especially in wild sectors like martech. Michele believes that the innevitably rapid advancements within tech demand adaptability and a willingness to tackle new challenges, which often means moving between jobs.
Michele argued that the notion of needing several years to make a significant impact in a company might indicate deeper issues with the hiring or role alignment process. In her experience, impactful contributions don't necessarily require long tenures. She shared an anecdote from her last position where she was promoted twice within just 12 months, underscoring her ability to drive meaningful change swiftly. Her success stories reflect her high performance and dedication to progress every day she's at work.
This perspective brings into question the disparity in the traditional view of loyalty, highlighting that while businesses often tout long tenures as signs of allegiance and even liken their teams to families, they frequently fail to uphold their end during challenging times, opting instead to cut numerous lower-level positions rather than making reductions at the top.
Michele highlighted that nowadays the real value lies in how much an individual can accelerate growth and bring about change, rather than how long they remain in a position. This approach benefits the companies that embrace such high-performing individuals.
Her stance suggests that companies should rethink their hiring strategies and the attributes they value in employees. The focus should shift towards flexibility, quick adaptation, and the ability to deliver results efficiently—qualities that are crucial in a sector as fluid as technology.
Key takeaway: Companies need humans that can adapt quickly and make significant impacts in relatively short periods, not half a decade. Michele’s experience shows that job mobility can be a sign of a high-performing individual capable of driving innovation and growth who’s looking out for themselves and owning their career paths. Companies should value flexibility and quick adaptability as much as, if not more than, long-term tenure.
Making the Leap From Sales to Product MarketingMichele's career shift from sales to product marketing at Cvent is a perfect example of how adaptable skills can propel your career forward. Starting in sales, Michele thrived by meeting challenges head-on and solving customers' problems effectively. Her success wasn't unnoticed; she was a top sales rep, deeply involved in every aspect of the products she sold. However, Michele knew she wanted more from her career. Unable to transfer from sales to marketing internally, her ambition to explore beyond sales led her to an agency role where she broadened her marketing expertise.
Despite enjoying the creative rush at the agency and wearing all of the hats, Michele felt something was missing. She could suggest marketing strategies but rarely saw how they played out, missing the direct impact of her work. This gap led her back to Cvent when a product marketing role opened up. It was a new territory, but she knew the product inside out from her sales days, which gave her a unique edge.
Stepping into product marketing, Michele fell in love with the strategic and creative elements of the role. She was right back at solving problems, but this time she was crafting the narrative and directly influencing the product's market journey. It was different from sales but used many of the same skills in new ways.
Today, Michele can't see herself doing anything else. Her story isn't just about a job change; it's about finding your niche where you can use your talents to the fullest. She took her in-depth product knowledge from sales and seamlessly integrated it with the marketing skills she honed along the way, proving that the right move at the right time can redefine your career.
Key takeaway: Michele's switch from sales to product marketing shows how valuable it is to apply your skills in new contexts. For marketers looking to keep their careers vibrant and impactful, consider how your current skills can open new doors within your field. It’s not just about climbing the ladder; sometimes, it’s about stepping onto a completely different one.
What Do Sales and Product Marketing Have in Common?It's not always intuitive, but one fundamental commonality between sales and product marketing is the requirement to deeply understand your product. Michele’s strategy for mastering new martech tools showcases just how critical this understanding is, not only for personal growth but also for making significant contributions to her team and the broader company objectives.
When Michele joins a new company, she immediately seeks to connect with colleagues from sales, customer success, and technical teams such as solution architects. These relationships are crucial as they provide a wealth of insights into the product's real-world applications, an invaluable resource for anyone in product marketing. Michele’s early days in any role are spent actively engaging: participating in calls, attending demos, and using the tools herself as much as possible. This hands-on experience allows her to view the product through the eyes of a user, which is essential for crafting messages that resonate with potential customers...
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