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What is a system?
This is the type of question which can only be meandered through, which is exactly what Nathalie Nahai and I do on this week's episode. Nathalie is a polymath: musician, artist, psychologist, AI expert and the host of 'In Conversation', her own podcast which she interviewed me on at the beginning of this year. We had a stunning conversation, one which we continue today, discussing relationships, connections, ecosystems, resilience, care and love.
This is the perfect conversation to approach the new year with, filled with hope, uncertainty and laughter.
Thank you for our time together this year.
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What is the United States for?
Journalist Matt Kennard would argue the most powerful nation in the world exists to undermine democracy, deny national sovereignty, and funnel wealth to the financial elite. His book, The Racket, exposed the true nature of the American Empire, a nature the mainstream on both the Left and Right refuse to acknowledge.
Matt’s first appearance on Planet: Critical saw him exposing How Corporations Overthrew Democracy. Today, he reveals the complicity and active participation of the American State as a counter-revolutionary force in the world, giving numerous examples from almost every continent as to how the United States has sought to undermine the rule of law and democracy in order to secure resources, security and power for itself. We also discuss how difficult it is to broach these topics in the mainstream, with Matt giving a searing critique of major journalism outlets who take up space as seemingly leftist publications without ever challenging imperialism. We also discuss the nightmare in Gaza and how bearing witness to a genocide is radicalising people all around the world to take action. This is an episode about the lies we have been told—and how to fight the information war while we can.
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In the beginning was the word—and that word justified it all.
In this stunning conversation with Sunil Amrith, historian and author of Burning Earth, we explore the systemic nature of violence. We discuss how it permeates the human project at every level, and how language is deployed to obfuscate, distract and even deny that which we bear witness to. Sunil walks us to different points in history to reveal the incontrovertible relationship between violence against the earth and violence against people, and that the justification to extract life from the non-human world inevitably justifies the hierarchies which then see the world’s most vulnerable human beings exploited and even killed.
This is a conversation about how the injustice with which the human project was built, about the ideologies that have justified rampant destruction and extraction, and about how to think of a better world tomorrow with the political language the past has to offer.
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Do things have to get worse before they get better?
Yes, says Dana Fisher, Director of the Center for Environment, Community & Equity and author of Saving Ourselves. Dana’s research suggests that witnessing the inevitable mass repression of fellow citizens through state violence or incarceration will mobilise the public to take action against climate-denying leaders.
This conversation on resistance is nuanced, addressing the uncomfortable truths that post-industrial democracies are suffering from increasing authoritarian policies which inhibit their right to protest and even speak. President-elect Trump has been forthright about his willingness to deploy the police and national guard against his opponents and American citizens. But Dana argues this worsening state violence could be the very thing that tips the rest of the country into action.
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Climate researcher and activist Pasha Bell was jailed for 22 months for protesting against the British government’s climate inaction. They join a growing group of concerned citizens disproportionately punished by the British state for exercising their democratic right to protest. The draconian measures introduced by the last Conservative government—which the current Labour government is making no plans to repeal—were drafted by think tanks funded by Big Oil. The laws are so unjust that the UK’s own High Court declared them illegal earlier this year.
Pasha joins me to run through exactly which laws were changed and how they’ve led to the criminalisation of protest in one of the world’s richest “democracies”, and how these laws are now impacting journalists’ attempts to cover the genocide in Gaza. We go on to discuss the connections between corporations, oligarchs and nation states in liberal democracies, and the alternatives that activists and communities are organising on the ground all over the UK, including Citizens’ Assembly, Youth Demand, and Just Stop Oil.
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Is the law fit for purpose?
This is one question Nikki Reisch, Director of the Climate and Energy Program at the Center for International Environmental Law, and I discuss on today’s episode. Nikki joins me to explain the wave of climate litigation taking place around the world, making climate a human rights issue for the first time in history.
We discuss this in the context of nation states currently undermining international law on the global stage. Nikki insists that the law is a powerful tool which must be both used and protected by support from the public arena, reminding us that the basis for law is consent, and that these landmark decisions provide credence for citizens to take action on the ground against climate inaction.
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How does trauma show up?
Kosha Joubert is the CEO of the pocket project and NGO dedicated to exploring and healing collective trauma. She joined me to discuss the impacts that collective trauma has on our bodies, on our systems and how it can even explain the way we are seemingly barreling towards even further destruction rather than turning towards healing.
Pocket project is launching a Climate Consciousness Summit that begins Friday the 15th and runs to next Thursday, the 21st of November, including amazing speakers like Amy Westervelt and Gabor Mate.
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WTF – What Trump F***s.*
Beside his extensive sexual assault of women, Trump’s political agenda involves violently assaulting the planet, climate legislation, industry regulations, state-led climate agendas and international negotiations.
And that was just the first time round. His second term will likely be far worse, with his team having had four years to plan. Details from Project 2025—published by a think tank with links to the Atlas Network—show how Trump is likely going to strip climate legislation away and ramp up fossil fuel production.
I asked Emily Atkin, editor of HEATED (which if you don’t know, you should immediately subscribe to), to explain exactly what another round of Trump does to international and national climate agendas. We also get into Musk, bitcoin, coal, what Biden could do, and how the media also needs evolve its messaging.
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*the answer is the future, btw.
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Can renewables really save the day?
Auke Hoekstra, Director of the NEON Research Program, says they can. The renewables researcher firmly states that we can power this society on renewables energy, dramatically reducing the harms caused by our current energy system and providing equitable access to energy. However, he does not think this means the renewable roll-out is inevitable thanks to political and economic forces built on fossil fuelled power.
Known as the “Debunker in chief”, Auke and I have a lengthy, nuanced, tense and joyful discussion about the question of renewables: their effectiveness, limitations, and how to use them responsibly. On the scientific side of the conversation, we cover the nitty gritty of energy density, materials access, and land use. We also situate the conversation in the wider socio-political context, leading to a conversation on shared values and responsibility.
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If not nuclear, then what else?
This is Jessica Lovering's question, co-founder of the Good Energy Collective. She says the most important thing is to lift one billion people out of energy poverty. To do that, we need a low carbon source of energy without intermittency issues. Because of this, she says, nuclear is a form of environmental justice.
Jessica begins by explaining the historical and current dynamics, regulatory issues, financial challenges, and technological advancements in nuclear. We then address the potential and complexities of nuclear power in addressing climate change, managing energy needs, and ensuring energy equity. We also explore community consent, nuclear waste management, geopolitical implications, employment impacts, before discussing whether or not nuclear is worth the risk in an increasingly unstable world.
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The U.S Military is going green. But what does that mean?
Decarbonised bases, hybrid vehicles, micro electricity grids, recycling methane gas. In fact, the U.S military is doing what climate activists are crying out for governments to do—everything, that is, except changing their overarching strategy. In a mind-bending example of how climate action can be taken when the purpose fits the status quo, the U.S military is ahead of the curve when it comes to taking this problem seriously.
I'm joined by Sherri Goodman, Secretary General of the International Military Council on Climate and the U.S first ever Under Secretary of Defence (Environmental Security) to discuss how the military is approaching the climate crisis. She explains what happens when a climate-denying administration disagrees with the military's prognosis, the steps they're taking to decarbonise, and the purported necessity for defence during times of resource scarcity.
We then debate the reality of the big picture: Is such action truly sustainable if we're not addressing the big picture drivers which create the conditions for violence and conflict?
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The Paris Agreement is dead.
The celebrated target marked in ink in 2016 has been killed by the focus on technocratic solutions over systemic change. Now, rather than address the frightening reality spawned by delusion and incompetence, we're heading even faster towards two degrees—and that being the new acceptable target.
Earth system scientist James Dyke explains that we cannot allow this new target to be set, which the fossil fuel industry is pushing for. This is James' second time on Planet: Critical. Just a few years ago, I interviewed him about the dangers of Net Zero policies and how these carbon accounting tricks were on course to send us over the 1.5 degree limit. Many scientists were chorusing that warning. Their concerns were not heeded and just three years later, we're on course for a truly dangerous future.
In this episode, James explains how we got here, what we've done wrong, and what will happen if climate policies don't rapidly address the structural inequalities and waste of both our energy and economic systems.
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We can’t harm the planet without harming ourselves.
Plastic. It’s ubiquitous. We are now learning it’s also insidious. Plastic is linked to numerous serious health conditions, from cancers to heart disease. It’s changing our DNA—and now babies are being born pre-polluted.
Jane van Dis is a medical doctor, academic and co-founder of ObGyns For Sustainable Future within Healthcare Without Harm. She joins me to explain the myriad impacts of plastic on the body, the collusion she has investigated between the petrochemical industry and government, how the fossil fuel industry got society hooked on the stuff, and the medical industry’s own plastic pollution problem. This is a jaw-dropping episode, exemplary both of the systems of harm we are forced to live in, and how civic advocacy begins when we take care of one another. For Jane, her journey began when she asked the question: Why are my patients getting sicker?
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What happens when an industry regulates itself?
Bad science, opaque methodologies, incorrect conclusions—and few questions asked. The fashion industry has spent over 10 years drafting sustainability guidelines under the guise of independent analysis which protect brands’ bottom lines. Thanks to an elaborate network of organisations, think tanks and funders, these guidelines have even made their into Law around the world. The problem? They’re unscientific.
Veronica Bates Kassatly is an economist and sustainable fashion consultant I met whilst investigating this story in 2022. Despite the extent of fashion’s greenwashing making international headlines years ago, little has come on since, as Veronica explains in the episode. We discuss the manipulation of sustainability metrics by the fashion industry to promote polyester fibre as sustainable, the deficiencies in current methodologies, and the impact of EU regulations on global trade, particularly for producers in the Global South. The episode highlights the interplay of economics, legislation, and industry incentives in perpetuating unsustainable practices, urging for inclusive discussions and genuine sustainability measures.
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What happens when economics takes precedence over thermodynamics?
Eventually, the system collapses—because being incompatible with thermodynamics is impossible. That’s the stark message of this week’s guest, Louis Arnoux, a scientist, engineer and managing director of Fourth Transition, who has been working on this problem for decades. Louis and his team’s research point to our energy systems collapsing by 2030 because we’re having to spend more energy than ever before to extract fuel. Soon, the energy cost of extraction will equal the energy benefit. Such an equilibrium is, in his words, a dead state.
In the episode, Louis gives a phenomenal overview of the three thermodynamic traps human civilisation is caught in, including how decarbonising to renewables is exacerbating the thermodynamic problem. He explains how our current energy systems work antithetically to the sun and the planet, including the waste problem, before highlighting the role of economics in the creation of an impossible system. He then explains what a possible energy system could look like with the technology we have available, and how we can engineer that system to mimic the efficiency and productivity of life on the planet.
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Can we engineer our way out of dystopia?
A.I. technologist Deep Dhillon and I had a heated exchange about technology after meeting by chance in Granada after a flamenco performance. The conversation was fascinating, and I invited him onto the show to discuss what's really going on in Silicon Valley around A.I., what developments are being made and why, and how this technology is going to impact us all.
As a cofounder of Xyonix and host of the podcast, Your A.I. Injection, Deep has decades of experience working on A.I. models. He explains his vision for a brighter future facilitated by technology, but equally explains the negative impacts of technology not just on society but on the industry itself which is racing to keep up with its own developments. This is a wide-ranging conversations about systems, tech, the economy and collective responsibility for engineering a better future for us all.
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This week, P:C features Mongabay.
Nations across the globe are trialing “rights of nature” laws and “legal personhood” for various ecosystems and a range of reasons, from Indigenous reconciliation to biodiversity protection. While these two concepts are closely related, they have some key differences.
Viktoria Kahui discusses what distinguishes them and how they’ve been used for conservation, while stressing there’s still little evidence that legal personhood protects biodiversity. Kahui is an environmental and ecological economist at the University of Otago in Aotearoa New Zealand and joins the Mongabay Newscast to interrogate these legal frameworks.
In this conversation with co-host Rachel Donald, Kahui outlines instances where the laws have been applied and why, despite some flaws, she thinks they are worth considering and iterating upon to combat environmental degradation, despite a global debate and many critiques, based on their intent and design. Chief among these is their imposition of an anthropocentric (and primarily Western) legal viewpoint upon something as complex as nature, which transcends the confines of human liability and, therefore, cannot be subjected to it without knock-on effects that potentially harm the people these laws are intended to empower.
Kahui weighs in on this debate and where she sees such laws being applied in a promising fashion, such as in Ecuador, where courts have examined nature in the context of established constitutional law, leading to outcomes that have benefited both people and nature.
“Very slowly, as lawyers and judges are becoming more familiar with the concept, they’re able to interpret it when there is a legal case being brought, and they’re [better able to argue] the side of nature,” she says. “It’s certainly much, much more positive than what we’ve seen in the past.”
Subscribe to or follow the Mongabay Newscast wherever you listen to podcasts, from Apple to Spotify, and you can also listen to all episodes on the Mongabay website.
Planet: Critical is back to regular programming next week. Stay tuned.
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How has the psychology industry perpetuated the problem?
Steffi Bednarek is a climate psychotherapist working both with clients on their anxiety and depression related to climate grief, and the overarching systems within the psychology profession which stigmatises mental health by failing to grasp that poor mental health can be a rational reaction to a broken world.
Steffi joins me to discuss how the dysfunction of our neoliberal economic system permeates our experience of being in the world, questioning whether health is an attainable goal in a sick society. She suggests the mental health crisis is yet another opportunity to radically transform our systems to promote a health that includes people and planet. We discuss the construct of the self, the metacrisis as a birth process, the role of the body in understanding information, and how to build psychological resilience.
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Remember the adage it's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism?
Culture inculcates certainties—and only in living against them will we forge new possibilities, says writer Natasha Lennard. Changing the world from the ground up takes time, it takes bravery, it takes collective will to go against. Only power changes fast. But we can live in a world where people—not power—make changes.
In this wonderful discussion on certainty, doubt and reimagining the world, Natasha, author of two books on politics and violence, walks us through how we currently conceptualise crisis and certainty, and how once we have an understanding of that conceptualisation, we can become more aware of how certainties arise from collective meaning making. This is about moving the frontiers of certainty, rejecting things that we think to be certain in order to challenge, experiment, and joyously resist violent norms. This is about how we build a new world—and remember what truly is certain: love, shelter, community, joy.
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What if the solutions are the problem?
Life is made beautiful by the myriad possibilities that evolve—spontaneously—from interactions in the world. A look shared between strangers, a joke passed from customer to barista, a story swapped, a birdsong heard. But these possibilities are diminishing with every tech substitution for interaction. Tech gets in the way.
I'm joined by journalist and founder of Low Tech Magazine, Kris De Decker, to discuss the difference between high tech and low tech; the zealous and unfounded faith in tech crippling our climate decisions; the relationship between tech, finance, economies and state control; and how a low tech lifestyle is liberating. This is a beautiful conversation with someone really walking the walk when it comes to sustainability—and reaping the rewards.
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References: Brett Scott and Altered States of Monetary Consciousness:
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