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A Bonus Episode for everyone! On Monday, I had a discussion/debate with Daniel Carr, a former cop from Albuquerque, New Mexico. Today, we discussed/debated the use of force in the SrA Roger Fortson, the Execution of Marcellus Williams, and the citation issued to a homeless, pregnant woman in Louisville Kentucky
Guest
Daniel Carr, Police Law Newsletter
Resources:
Links to Daniel’s Work
https://linktr.ee/policelawnews
SrA Roger Fortson Case
https://www.npr.org/2024/08/23/nx-s1-5088020/roger-fortson-death-florida-sheriff-deputy-charged-manslaughter
https://apnews.com/article/airman-shot-florida-deputy-roger-fortson-760057db9fd9c7b2f25e85b1b285e8e3
Execution of Marcellus Williams
https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/24/24-5612/326599/20240923222829451_2024.09.23%20Williams%20Glossip%20Cert%20Petition%20FINAL.pdf
https://www.google.com/search?q=marcellus+williams+pettion&oq=marcellus+williams+pettion&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIJCAEQABgKGIAEMgkIAhAAGAoYgATSAQg2MjkyajBqNKgCALACAA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Pregnant KY Woman Cited for Unlawful Camping
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/21/us/kentucky-woman-pregnant-homeless-police.html#:~:text=A%20homeless%20woman%20said%20that,camera%20footage%20released%20on%20Thursday.
https://www.wlky.com/article/body-cam-footage-lmpd-citing-pregnant-homeless-woman-labor/63251559
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/dec/20/pregnant-kentucky-woman-labor
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Thank you to everyone who has made the show possible this year. Whether you are a listener, a subscriber, a guest, or a friend of the show, this show would not be possible without you! Thanks for another amazing year, and Hunter is looking forward to another incredible year in 2025.
*NO EPISODES THIS THURSDAY OR NEXT TUESDAY*
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Today, Hunter is joined by professor Ráchael Powers to discuss Marsy’s Law. For those unfamiliar, Marsy’s Law is one of many types of Victim’s Bill of Rights law that exist around the country. These laws are designed to give victims of crime more rights in the criminal legal system. The only problem? They often directly conflict with the rights of the accused. Today, Ráchael joins us to talk about a report she published for the NACDL about the dangers of Marsy’s Law.
Guests:
Ráchael Powers
Resources:
Contact Ráchael
https://researchdirectory.uc.edu/p/powersro
https://x.com/rpowerscrim?lang=en
Read the Report
https://www.nacdl.org/Document/JusticeforNoneHowMarsysLawUnderminesCrimLegalSys
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Today, Hunter is joined once again by Eric Fish and Chesa Boudin. This time, Eric and Chesa join the show to discuss a recent law review article they published discussing ways to strengthen pre-trial adjudication. As discussed at length on the show, our criminal legal system has killed the jury trial. As a result, opportunities to bring injustices, misconduct, and corruption to light have faded away. Chesa and Eric’s law review article attempts to point out places around the country that have figured out ways to revive adversarial aspects of our legal system before trial. In doing so, they offer a pathway that criminal defense lawyers may be able to increase their chances to oppose the governments case in public.
Guests:
Chesa Boudin, Executive Director, UC Berkley Criminal Law and Justice Center
Eric Fish, Professor of Law, UC Davis School of Law
Resources:
Contact Chesa
https://www.law.berkeley.edu/our-faculty/faculty-profiles/chesa-boudin/#tab_profile
https://x.com/chesaboudin?lang=en
Contact Eric
https://x.com/Eric_S_Fish
https://law.ucdavis.edu/people/eric-fish
Law Review Article
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=5026754
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Today, Hunter is joined by Professor Jacob Charles to discuss the Second Amendment. Since D.C. v Heller in 2008, the Second Amendment transformed from nearly dead letter law to one of the most rapidly changing areas of the Constitution. Jake joins the show to detail that transformation and explain the impacts it is having on our legal system.
Guests:
Jacob Charles, Professor of Law, Pepperdine University Caruso School of Law
Resources:
Contact Jake
https://law.pepperdine.edu/faculty-research/jacob-charles/
https://bsky.app/profile/jacobdcharles.bsky.social
https://x.com/JacobDCharles
SSRN
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/cf_dev/AbsByAuth.cfm?per_id=1714457
Heller
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/554/570/
Bruen
https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/21pdf/20-843_7j80.pdf
Rahimi
https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/23pdf/22-915_8o6b.pdf
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Today, Hunter is joined by Dr. Julie Mack and Randy Papetti to discuss Shaken Baby Syndrome. Also known as Abusive Head Trauma, Shaken Baby Syndrome started out as an untested hypothesis meant to help parents keep their children safe. However, police and prosecutors quickly realized the power SBS had to secure convictions. Since then, dozens of people’s convictions have been overturned as courts around the country realize that SBS is an unfounded, junk science that does not belong in the criminal court room.
Guests:
Dr. Julie Mack, Radiologist
Randy Papetti, Attorney
Resources:
CATO Institute on Shaken Baby Syndrome
https://www.cato.org/events/shaken-baby-syndrome-examining-evidence-shadow-executionRandy’s Book on Shaken Baby Syndrome
https://www.amazon.com/Forensic-Unreliability-Shaken-Baby-Syndrome/dp/0998904333
Feigned Consensus: Usurping the Law in Shaken Baby Syndrome/ Abusive Head Trauma Prosecutions
https://repository.law.umich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3104&context=articles
Swedish Study on SBS
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28130787/
Robert Roberson
https://www.themarshallproject.org/2023/09/15/texas-shaken-baby-syndrome-baby-death-robert-roberson?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiAl4a6BhBqEiwAqvrquptUxczfL4EwGv2aXhKkzhV8LiaHBriGbcdDzCJtXwd7ypeophvb0xoCCckQAvD_BwE
https://www.texastribune.org/2024/10/29/robert-roberson-shaken-baby-texas-death-row-evidence/
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Today, Hunter is joined by Rob Perkins and Dan Eichinger to discuss Public Defense in Allegheny County, Pennsylvania. If you’ve listened to the show long enough, then you know that Pennsylvania was one of the last states to provide any funding for Public Defense. While the $7.5 million allocated to support Public Defense is welcome, it is insufficient to account for the decades of underfunding/understaffing in places like Allegheny County. Yet, Dan and Rob believe that with the help of new county leadership, they can finally meet the demands of Gideon in Allegheny County.
Guests:
Rob Perkins, Executive Director, Allegheny Lawyer’s Initiative for Justice
Daniel Eichinger, Program Administrator, Wayne County Indigent Defense Services
Resources:
Allegheny Lawyers Initiative for Justice
https://www.ali4j.org/
Allegheny Public Defender Report
https://www.ali4j.org/research-report-a-path-forward
ACLU Report
https://www.aclupa.org/en/job-left-undone-allegheny-countys-fork-road
2018 Coverage of Public Defense
https://whyy.org/articles/decades-after-landmark-lawsuit-caseload-concerns-continue-in-allegheny-countys-public-defender-office/
Email Rob
During the Episode Dan, mentioned Racial Disparity in Allegheny County. Here is an additional note from him:
RAND_RTI_Final_Report.pdf (pitt.edu)
Additionally, I mentioned that half of all charges filed against Black people arise from a police initiated encounter. My phrasing could have been more precise as the paper refers to charges arising out of "Black neighborhoods" (as opposed to Black people) and I didn't mention the numbers in terms of the disparity between White neighborhoods, so I wanted to make sure your listeners had the exact language from the report:
(Pg. 47 of the report, pg. 91 of the document):
"In particular, charges that are filed in Black neighborhoods are almost equally likely to initiate from either a call for service or a low-priority law enforcement action (30% versus 27%). However, in the White matched neighborhoods, charges are more than twice as likely to originate from a call for service than from a low-priority law enforcement action (38% versus 17%)."
Additionally, the percentage of charges growing out of a police-initiated interaction is likely higher because, as the authors note (pg. 46):
"Thirty-two percent of the cases could not be matched to the 911 call data. As noted in the previous section, these are likely to be instances where law enforcement officers initiated an action but did not call it in. These unmatched cases are thus classified as unidentified law enforcement–initiated actions."
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Today, Hunter is joined by Professor Stephen Bright to discuss his new book, the Fear of Too Much Justice. Over decades of work as an attorney, Steve has been a leading voice against the death penalty and in support of major overhauls to our criminal legal system. Today, Steve joins the show to discuss how the Fear of Too Much Justice is stopping people from reforming our criminal legal system.
Guests:
Stephen Bright, Professor of Law, Yale University School of Law
Resources:
Stephen Bright’s Faculty Page
https://law.yale.edu/stephen-b-bright
Fear of Too Much Justice
https://www.thefearoftoomuchjustice.com/
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Today, Hunter is joined the Editor of the Virginia Defender Newspaper, Phil Wilayto to try and understand a simple question: Why are people incarcerated at Virginia’s Red Onion State Super Max Prison self-immolating just to get transferred to a new prison?
Guests:
Phil Wilayto, Editor, Virginia Defender Newspaper
Resources:
On Saturday, Dec. 7, the Virginia Defenders for Freedom, Justice & Equality will hold a public meeting titled “Crisis at Red Onion Supermax: How you can help!” The meeting will take place at Wesley Memorial United Methodist Church, 1720 Mechanicsville Turnpike, in Richmond’s East End.
https://virginiadefender.org/
For more information, call, or text the Defenders at 804-644-5834 or email [email protected].
Crisis at Red Onion Face Book Page
https://www.facebook.com/events/980796297402417/?acontext=%7B%22event_action_history%22%3A[%7B%22mechanism%22%3A%22your_upcoming_events_unit%22%2C%22surface%22%3A%22bookmark%22%7D]%2C%22ref_notif_type%22%3Anull%7D
More Coverage
https://www.wvtf.org/news/2024-11-12/fearful-prisoners-use-desperate-measures-to-protest
https://www.latintimes.com/dozen-black-inmates-reportedly-attempted-self-immolate-virginia-supermax-prison-escape-566799
https://www.wric.com/news/virginia-news/officials-address-allegations-of-self-inflicted-burnings-by-inmates-at-red-onion-state-prison/
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/inmates-red-onion-state-prison-sustain-self-inflicted-burns-protest-rcna182013
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/nov/30/red-onion-state-prison-protest
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/01/us/virginia-prisoners-burns-protest.html
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Today, Hunter is joined by Professor Joanna Schwartz to discuss Civil Rights Litigation. Like they did for the rights of criminal defendants, the conservative legal movement has slowly chipped away at Civil Rights protections under Section 1983. Today, Joanna joins to talk about the many ways it is nearly impossible for a person to get a remedy after the government violates their civil rights.
Guests:
Joanna Schwartz, Professor of Law, UCLA
Resources:
Follow Joanna on Twitter
https://x.com/JCSchwartzProf
Joanna’s Website
https://www.joannaschwartz.net/
https://law.ucla.edu/faculty/faculty-profiles/joanna-c-schwartz
Vallejo Police Coverage
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2024-10-18/families-of-people-killed-by-vallejo-police-say-department-has-gone-rogue
https://www.kqed.org/news/11769266/the-long-storied-history-of-police-community-tension-in-vallejo
https://www.propublica.org/article/vallejo-police-killing-investigations
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/11/23/how-a-deadly-police-force-ruled-a-city
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Today, Hunter is joined by Amanda Jack of the New York Legal Aid Society. Today, Amanda and Hunter are discussing the Harvey Weinstein trial. Specifically, they are discussing why the conviction was overturned, why the New York legislature is trying to change the rules of evidence, and why it’s a terrible idea for them to do it.
Guests:
Amanda Jack, Policy Director Criminal Practice, NY Legal Aid Society
Resources:
Follow Amanda on Twitter
https://x.com/brooklynpd
Federal Rule of Evidence 413 and Harvey Weinstein
https://www.law.com/newyorklawjournal/2024/05/30/federal-rule-of-evidence-413-and-harvey-weinstein/?slreturn=20241123154046
https://nysba.org/the-people-v-harvey-weinstein-the-question-of-prior-bad-acts/?srsltid=AfmBOooaOVkUi_nnP2AqDlNinTDRYWRpXrPDFsj8OwCGFxnMt2zWGOky
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Today, Hunter is joined once again by Andre de Gruy, Chief Public Defender of Mississippi. The last time Andre was on the show, he and Hunter discussed some positive changes he was hoping to get out of the 2024 legislative session. While not everything from the last episode came to pass, Andre believes Mississippi public defense is ever so slowly improving.
Guests:
Andre de Gruy, State Public Defender, Mississippi
Resources:
OSPD Website
https://www.ospd.ms.gov/
Marshall Project Mississippi
https://www.themarshallproject.org/2024/05/02/mississippi-public-defense-legislative-reforms
https://www.themarshallproject.org/2023/09/18/mississippi-courts-lawyers-poor-defendants
https://www.themarshallproject.org/2024/01/24/arrested-hinds-county-mississippi-jackson-courts
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@PDefenselessPod
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Today, Hunter is joined be the Co-Founder of Reduct, Prabhas Pokharel. Building from Tuesday’s conversation about tech, AI, and Public Defense, Hunter and Prabhas explore the ways AI and Reduct can help Public Defenders take on Police and Prosecutors.
Guests:
Prabhas Pokharel, Co-Founder, Reduct
Resources:
Reduct Website, Socials, and Contact
https://reduct.video/
https://x.com/ReductVideo
Standford Legal AI Study
https://www.lawnext.com/2024/06/in-redo-of-its-study-stanford-finds-westlaws-ai-hallucinates-at-double-the-rate-of-lexisnexis.html
https://hai.stanford.edu/news/ai-trial-legal-models-hallucinate-1-out-6-or-more-benchmarking-queries
https://dho.stanford.edu/wp-content/uploads/Legal_RAG_Hallucinations.pdf
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@PDefenselessPod
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Today, Hunter is joined once again by Professor Andrew Ferguson. Last time Andrew was on the show, he and Hunter discussed the state of the 4th Amendment in the digital era. This time, Hunter and Andrew dive into three law review articles Andrew has recently published. The first discussed a new framework for analyzing the 4th Amendment. The second and third articles are all about new, dangerous was police and prosecutors are relying on AI.
Guests:
Andrew Ferguson, Professor of Law, American University Washington College of Law
Resources:
Andrew’s Faculty Page
https://www.american.edu/wcl/faculty/ferguson.cfm
Andrews Law Review Articles
Digital Rummaging
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4377633
AI in Police Reports
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4897632
Video Analytics and the Fourth Amendment
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4766249
U.S. v Tuggle
https://media.ca7.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/rssExec.pl?Submit=Display&Path=Y2021/D07-14/C:20-2352:J:Flaum:aut:T:fnOp:N:2733467:S:0
More on AI in Police Reports
https://www.kqed.org/news/12007520/how-artificial-intelligence-is-changing-the-reports-police-write
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/171-mic-drop-andrew-ferguson-says-ais-introduction/id1225077306?i=1000671753062
https://www.propublica.org/article/police-body-cameras-video-ai-law-enforcement
https://apnews.com/article/ai-writes-police-reports-axon-body-cameras-chatgpt-a24d1502b53faae4be0dac069243f418
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@PublicDefenselessPodcast
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Today, Hunter is joined by IV Ashton, Founder and President of Legal Server, to discuss how a quality case management system and powerful AI tools can help Public Defenders pose more systemic challenges to police and prosecutors
Guests:
IV Ashton, President and Founder, Legal Server
Resources:
Legal Server Website
https://www.legalserver.org/
Contact Hunter Parnell:
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@PublicDefenselessPodcast
Twitter
@PDefenselessPod
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Today, Hunter is joined by Nancy Farrell and Dee Miller of the New York Vet Defense Program. Previously on the show, Hunter and other guests have described the power of veteran and other treatment courts. However, we have often lamented at the limited scope that this courts offer veterans who need help but just not drug or alcohol treatment. With this program, Nancy and Dee offer veterans the culturally competent mitigation and service connection that helps Vets escape the criminal legal system.
Guests:
Nancy Farrell, Director, New York Vet Defense
Dee Miller, Program Coordinator, Vet Defense
Resources:
Connect With NY Vet Defense
585 219 4862
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Today, Hunter is joined once again by NAPD’s Jeff Sherr. This time, they sat down to discuss NAPD’s new Change Maker Forum, what Hunter learned from attending, and how NAPD hopes to use it to spark new, impactful changes in Public Defense.
Guests:
Jeff Sherr, Director of Training, National Association of Public Defense
Resources:
NAPD Changemaker Forum 2025
https://publicdefenders.us/event/the-changemakers-forum-napd-strategic-exchange-3/
Notes from 2024
https://publicdefenders.us/blogs/napd-changemakers-forum-tackles-public-defense-challenges/
Contact Hunter Parnell:
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@PublicDefenselessPodcast
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@PDefenselessPod
www.publicdefenseless.com
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www.patreon.com/PublicDefenselessPodcast
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Trying to find a specific part of an episode? Use this link to search transcripts of every episode of the show!
https://app.reduct.video/o/eca54fbf9f/p/d543070e6a/share/c34e85194394723d4131/home
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Today, Hunter is joined by Ph.D. candidate and law student Andrew Gurrero to discuss his research about the evolution of the UCLA police department. In this episode, Hunter and Andrew explore the origins of the department and the forces that drove the department away from its original mandate.
Guests:
Andrew Gurrero, Ph.D Candidate, Harvard
Resources:
Read Sources Discussed in the Episode Here
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/12_jIy21jUCsPS4qEqSAMjxxvx1Tlce6r?usp=sharing
Contact Hunter Parnell:
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Trying to find a specific part of an episode? Use this link to search transcripts of every episode of the show!
https://app.reduct.video/o/eca54fbf9f/p/d543070e6a/share/c34e85194394723d4131/home
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Today, Hunter is joined once again by Rebecca Schaffer to discuss plea bargaining in Europe. As we did on Tuesday, this episode aims to help people understand the intractable problems with plea deals and what countries are doing to try and ameliorate those problems
Guests:
Rebecca Schaffer, Former Legal Director, Fair Trials
Resources:
Follow Rebecca on Twitter
https://x.com/rebeccashaeffe?lang=en
Email Rebecca
Read the Reports
https://www.fairtrials.org/articles/film-video/trial-waiver-systems-in-europe-punishment-without-a-trial/
https://www.fairtrials.org/articles/publications/the-disappearing-trial/
Contact Hunter Parnell:
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@PublicDefenselessPodcast
Twitter
@PDefenselessPod
www.publicdefenseless.com
Subscribe to the Patron
www.patreon.com/PublicDefenselessPodcast
Donate on PayPal
https://www.paypal.com/donate/?hosted_button_id=5KW7WMJWEXTAJ
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Trying to find a specific part of an episode? Use this link to search transcripts of every episode of the show!
https://app.reduct.video/o/eca54fbf9f/p/d543070e6a/share/c34e85194394723d4131/home
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Today, Hunter is joined once again by Aditi Goel of the Sixth Amendment Center. This time, we discuss their recent report about Public Defense in South Dakota. Like many county based, county funded Public Defense systems, South Dakota is plagued with underfunding, under staffing, lack of independence, and cost saving practices that make Public Defense ineffective. Yet, this episode has a ray of hope because for the first time in its history, the state appears poised to radically reimagine how it funds, supports, and organizes Public Defense.
Guests:
Aditi Goel, Deputy Director, Sixth Amendment Center
Resources:
Read the Report Here:
https://6ac.org/new-6ac-report-finds-south-dakota-counties-are-at-a-breaking-point-and-need-state-oversight/
New South Dakota Public Defense Commission
https://www.sdpb.org/crime-courts/2024-10-07/public-defense-challenges-highlighted-as-commission-begins-work
https://sdlegislature.gov/Session/Bill/24943/265191
Task Force Report
https://ujs.sd.gov/uploads/committees/Indigent/ILSTaskForceFinalReportRecommendations.pdf
Contact Hunter Parnell:
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@PublicDefenselessPodcast
Twitter
@PDefenselessPod
www.publicdefenseless.com
Subscribe to the Patron
www.patreon.com/PublicDefenselessPodcast
Donate on PayPal
https://www.paypal.com/donate/?hosted_button_id=5KW7WMJWEXTAJ
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Trying to find a specific part of an episode? Use this link to search transcripts of every episode of the show!
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