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Summary
Jochem Van Der Veer and Jim Kalbach discuss the Jobs to Be Done (JTBD) framework, its integration with experience design, and its application in understanding user needs. Jim emphasizes the importance of precision and complementary techniques in JTBD, explaining how it enhances traditional methods like journey mapping. They explore the hierarchy of target jobs, the significance of job metrics, and the ROI of implementing JTBD in organizations.
They delve into the Jobs to Be Done framework, discussing its importance in prioritizing opportunities, understanding unmet needs, and fostering collaboration within teams. They explore the timeless nature of jobs, the longevity of research findings, and the common pitfalls organizations face when implementing this framework. The discussion also highlights the balance between leveraging AI for research and the necessity of human insight in understanding customer needs.
Guest Bio
Jim is an expert at the intersection of experience design, innovation, and new ways of working. With a deep passion for creating meaningful user experiences and driving organisational change, Jim has authored five influential books on these subjects including : The JTBD Playbook (Rosenfeld, 2020) and Collaborative Intelligence (Wiley, 2023).
In 2020, Jim co-founded the JTBD Toolkit, a comprehensive online resource dedicated to the "Jobs to Be Done" framework. With years of experience in design thinking, remote collaboration, and product development, Jim is Chief Evangelist at Mural - the whiteboard software company and sought-after speaker and thought leader in the design and innovation space.
Chapters:
00:00 Introduction to Jobs to Be Done Framework
02:46 Complementary Techniques in Experience Design
06:05 Understanding Precision in Jobs to Be Done
09:03 Target Jobs and Hierarchy of Abstraction
11:49 Job Metrics and Their Importance
15:07 B2B Example: Health Insurance Job Metrics
17:59 Qualitative Research in Jobs to Be Done
21:14 The Value of Job Metrics for Underwriters
24:00 Scaling Jobs to Be Done in Organizations
26:53 Decision Making and Rituals in Organizations
32:18 Data Integration and Jobs to Be Done
36:28 The Longevity of Jobs to Be Done Research
37:50 Collaboration vs. Research in Jobs to Be Done
39:43 Operationalizing Jobs to Be Done
41:30 Facilitating Team Collaboration
43:16 Understanding Metrics: NPS and Jobs to Be Done
44:41 Common Mistakes in Jobs to Be Done
48:31 Delivering Insights to Teams
51:21 Balancing AI and Human Insight
56:54 Complementary Roles of AI in Research
Link to book - https://g.co/kgs/zTgBXnE
Follow Jim - https://www.linkedin.com/in/kalbach/
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In this conversation, Todd Unger, Chief Experience Officer at the American Medical Association (AMA), discusses his journey in transforming the organization to focus on growth through customer experience. He emphasizes the importance of understanding the target customer, creating a compelling brand proposition, and the role of digital transformation in achieving these goals. Todd shares practical insights and examples from his experience, including the development of a customer experience strategy and the creation of his book, 'The 10 Second Customer Journey.' In this conversation, Todd Unger discusses the importance of simplicity in branding, the process of building products that deliver on brand promises, and the significance of brand sentiment in driving membership. He reflects on the lessons learned during the pandemic and emphasizes the need for streamlined commerce processes and effective storytelling. Unger also highlights the importance of eliminating friction in customer experience and shares insights on the future of customer experience and growth strategies.
Guest Bio:
Todd is a transformational leader with a real edge on Experience, known for his "productive disruptor" mindset he turned his company upside down to focus on one thing: growth.
With over a decade of expertise in consumer product marketing and advertising, he has a laser focus on the customer, ensuring that business and digital transformation are always customer-centred. Currently serving as Chief Experience Officer at the American Medical Association, they drive initiatives that blend product, marketing, e-commerce, community, and service to boost membership and enhance the impact of the organisation’s mission.
He’s the author of the 10-second customer journey. A playbook on customer experience, offers a groundbreaking step-by-step framework that redefines the way businesses approach customer interactions.
Chapter Breakdown:
00:00 Introduction to Todd Unger and AMA
02:01 Defining Growth at a Legacy Organization
04:31 Digital Transformation as a Growth Driver
06:31 Breaking Down Silos for Success
11:16 Redesigning Email Campaigns for Impact
16:01 Overview of the Seven-Step CX Framework
20:51 Redefining Target Customers in 4D
25:31 Creating a Compelling Brand Proposition
30:01 Delivering on the Brand Promise
36:01 Streamlining the Commerce Process
40:31 Building a Strong Storytelling Platform
50:01 Eliminating Friction Across Touchpoints
55:01 Lessons for CX Leaders
Takeaways:
The point of customer experience is growth. Membership growth is a challenge for associations. Digital transformation is key to member engagement. Aligning marketing, product, and service is crucial for growth. A culture of testing and experimentation drives innovation. Understanding the target customer is foundational for success. Segmentation should be driven by data, not assumptions. A compelling brand proposition resonates emotionally with customers. Simplicity in messaging is essential for clarity. Leadership support is vital for organizational change. Simplicity in branding can lead to better customer understanding. Digital brands excel by conveying their message quickly and effectively. Creating a product that aligns with brand promises is crucial. Brand sentiment is a key metric for membership success. The pandemic reshaped how organizations express their brand strategies. Streamlining the commerce process enhances customer experience. A strong storytelling platform is essential for engagement. Eliminating friction in customer journeys can drive growth. CX should be embedded in operational units for effectiveness. Continuous learning and adaptation are vital for organizational growth.Follow Todd
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Jochem Van Der Veer interviews Steven van Belleghem, exploring South Korea’s unique customer experience landscape, the role of AI, robotics, and government in digital innovation. They discuss personalized automation, redefining human interactions, friction hunting, emotional connections, and the leadership needed to foster customer trust and loyalty in a fast-changing world.
Guest Bio:
Steven is a Customer Experience veteran - he’s mostly known for his super engaging keynotes and high energy on stage.
He finds his inspiration by visiting companies all over the world. He is the co-founder of Nexxworks, an inspiration agency that organises inspiration tours in all corners of the world to inspire executives to improve their customer experience.
He’s also a part-time marketing professor at Vlerick Business School and guest speaker at London Business School.
But most importantly, Steven has seen, dissected, inspected, reviewed and shared more customer experiences than probably any other person in the world.
Some of his popular books include “Customers The Day After Tomorrow” and “When Digital Becomes Human.” His work emphasizes the balance between automation and human connection in creating future-proof customer strategies.
Chapter Breakdown:
00:00 Introduction to Steven Van Belleghem
02:20 Insights from South Korea's Customer Experience Leaders
05:44 The Role of Robots in South Korea's Workforce
07:59 Korea’s Digital-First Approach to Customer Experience
11:20 Government and Corporate Collaboration in Innovation
16:51 Speed vs. Emotional Connection in Customer Experience
19:54 AI and the Future of Customer Service
24:16 Preparing Organizations for AI-Driven Transformation
30:09 Branding and Loyalty in an AI-Powered World
40:22 Redefining Metrics for Customer Experience Success
46:02 The Power of Emotional Engagement in a Frictionless World
53:54 The Future Role of CX Teams in Shaping Strategy
Takeaways:
Steven's trip to South Korea revealed a stark difference in customer experience compared to Europe and the US. South Korea has a unique digital landscape with local tech heroes like Naver and Coupang. The integration of robots in workplaces is a significant trend in South Korea. Cultural differences impact how customer experience is approached in different regions. The South Korean government plays a crucial role in supporting local tech companies. Speed is a critical factor in customer experience, but it's not the only one. AI will transform customer service, but brands must focus on emotional connections. Trust and loyalty will be key differentiators in a future dominated by AI. Brands need to strengthen their identity to stand out in an AI-driven market. Leadership will need to adapt to new decision-making processes influenced by AI. Innovation will primarily occur on the consumer side with better tools. Companies must redefine the role of human interaction in a digital world. B2B companies lag behind B2C in customer experience innovation. Metrics should focus on zero friction and personalization. Friction hunting is essential for maintaining strong customer relationships. Emotional connections are key to differentiating customer experiences. Customer experience teams should act as the voice of the customer. Organizations should prioritize actionable insights over lengthy reports. Chewy exemplifies exceptional customer experience practices. Leadership must prioritize customer experience as a core business strategy.Follow Steven
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In this conversation, Andrew George, direct marketing strategist and customer experience advocate at the Canadian Red Cross, shares strategies for optimizing donor engagement through journey mapping, empathy-driven communication, and blending traditional metrics with attitudinal data. He highlights the importance of collaboration across teams, empowering donors, and implementing feedback loops to improve retention. Andrew reflects on lessons learned, adapting to changing donor needs, and the unique challenges nonprofits face compared to for-profits, while emphasizing the ongoing journey toward true donor-centricity and the need for executive buy-in to drive CX initiatives.
Guest Bio:
Andrew wears two hats as both a direct marketing strategist and customer experience advocate at the Red Cross, where he expertly balances the metrics-driven demands of marketing with the empathy-driven needs of CX. With a focus on direct marketing, Andrew understands the rigorous push to generate responses, acknowledging the sometimes transactional nature of the field. But it’s through CX that he finds deeper fulfilment—connecting with donors one-on-one to better understand their experiences, even when the conversation is challenging. For Andrew, these insights help drive genuine, impactful relationships with donors, fueling meaningful growth for Red Cross programs.
As a lifelong Tottenham Hotspur supporter, he knows all about loyalty and dedication. Andrew has also dabbled in the world of voice acting, lending their voice to small commercials and narrations—an experience that adds another layer of versatility to their storytelling skills.
Chapter Breakdown:
00:00 Introduction to Andrew George and His Roles
05:49 Metrics and KPIs in Non-Profit Marketing
11:56 Insights from the Ukraine Donor Journey
18:00 Creating Aha Moments for Team Empathy
24:04 Balancing What Donors Say vs. What They Do
29:54 Team Structure and Collaboration in Marketing and CX
35:45 Implementing Feedback Loops for Improvement
42:40 Empowering Donors Through Communication
48:36 Nonprofit vs. For-Profit: A Cultural Perspective
56:09 Overcoming Resistance to Change
Takeaways:
Andrew balances metrics-driven marketing with empathy-driven customer experience. The primary customers for the Red Cross are individual donors. Optimizing donor experience is crucial for retention and engagement. Metrics like share of wallet and retention are key performance indicators. Attitudinal measures can correlate with financial success in non-profits. Journey mapping helps understand the donor experience from start to finish. The Ukraine donor journey provided valuable insights into donor motivations. Creating a seamless experience is essential for donor satisfaction. One-on-one interviews yield deeper insights than surveys. Team collaboration is vital for creating a unified donor experience. CX is organized in pockets within the organization. Collaboration is key for effective decision-making. Feedback loops are essential for continuous improvement. Mistakes in CX often stem from solving non-existent problems. Empowering donors enhances their experience and engagement. Donor needs are evolving, requiring adaptive strategies. Nonprofit organizations attract individuals motivated by purpose. True donor-centricity is a continuous challenge. Executive buy-in is crucial for successful CX initiatives. Change management is necessary to overcome resistance.Follow Andrew
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Deborah Honig, a Global Business Executive at Samsung Electronics, shares insights into customer journeys, from mobile ordering to digital banking. She highlights the role of technology in enhancing user experience, reflects on both positive and negative interactions, and explores the challenges brands face in delivering consistent online and offline experiences.
Guest Bio:
Deborah is an accomplished leader in customer experience and brand innovation, currently driving Samsung’s vision of a connected, customer-first future in the UK. In her role, she orchestrates Samsung's diverse product and service ecosystem.
And here’s what I love: merging cutting-edge technology with emotion.
She is tasked with defining Samsung’s brand purpose for the UK, and today she’s pioneering ways to enrich how people live, engage, and connect.
Her career began at McKinsey, From there, she advanced to leadership roles with some of the world’s most iconic brands, including Nike, Amazon, M&S, and Starbucks.
Her experience spans developing brands, creating transformative customer value props, and building retail strategies that use data and technology to meet customers where they are.
Chapter Breakdown
00:00 Rapid Fire Questions with Deborah
00:12 First Customer Journey: Mobile Ordering at Starbucks
01:09 Recent Journey: Buying a Samsung Vacuum
02:47 Worst Journey: In-Store and Online Boot Purchase Issues
05:03 Best Journey: Switching to Barclays for Digital Banking
07:20 Surprises in Digital Banking Experience
08:39 Challenges of Stickiness in Banking
09:30 The Evolution of Customer Journeys with Technology
12:10 Personalized Experiences in Retail and Banking
15:05 Lessons from Great and Poor Customer Journeys
18:22 Predictions for the Future of Customer Experience
21:15 Final Reflections on Digital Transformation
Takeaways:
People want to get in and get out quickly.
Mobile ordering has evolved significantly over the years.
Chatbots can enhance the customer journey by providing information.
Inconsistent policies between online and offline can frustrate customers.
Technology in banking has made processes more convenient and efficient.
Switching banks can lead to better customer experiences.
Digital validation of documents is becoming more common in banking.
Customer expectations change based on past experiences with brands.
Brands need to keep up with technological advancements to retain customers.
A seamless customer journey is crucial for satisfaction.
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In this conversation, David Avrin discusses the evolution of customer experience from a product-centric to a customer-centric approach. He emphasizes the importance of understanding changing customer expectations and balancing business needs with customer desires. Avrin advocates for compassionate capitalism, where profitability and customer satisfaction coexist. He also highlights the challenges customer experience teams face in aligning their initiatives with business outcomes and the role of leadership in driving customer experience transformation. The discussion touches on global perspectives on customer experience and the necessity of eliminating friction to enhance customer satisfaction. In this conversation, David discusses the importance of creating a seamless customer experience and the challenges businesses face in doing so. He emphasizes the need for companies to be aware of friction points in their processes and how AI can play a role in improving customer interactions. Avrin also highlights the significance of maintaining human touch in customer service, especially as automation becomes more prevalent. The discussion touches on the future of customer experience, the value of understanding customer needs, and the necessity for operational decisions to include customer experience insights.
One of the most in-demand Customer Experience speakers and consultants in the world today, David Avrin, Global Speaking Fellow, has shared his content-rich, entertaining and actionable presentations with enthusiastic audiences across the world. David helps organizations better understand and connect with their changing customers and clients to help future-proof their businesses.
His insights have been featured on thousands of media outlets around the world. But he is also the author of seven books including my favorite Why Customers Leave (and How to Win Them Back).
Guest Bio
One of the most in-demand Customer Experience speakers and consultants in the world today, David Avrin, Global Speaking Fellow, has shared his content-rich, entertaining and actionable presentations with enthusiastic audiences across the world. David helps organizations better understand and connect with their changing customers and clients to help future-proof their businesses.
His insights have been featured on thousands of media outlets around the world. But he is also the author of seven books including my favourite Why Customers Leave (and How to Win Them Back).
Chapter breakdown
00:00 Introduction to David
01:06 Shift from Product to Customer Centricity
05:11 Breaking Silos in Customer-Centric Organizations
09:42 Compassionate Capitalism in CX
12:16 CX Teams’ Struggle to Prove Business Impact
15:36 Coaching Leadership for CX Success
18:43 Global Differences in CX Practices
21:35 Eliminating Friction in Customer Journeys
27:45 Examples of Reducing Friction
34:10 Role of AI in Reducing CX Friction
40:31 Challenges with Call Centers and Chatbots
47:28 CX as a Revenue Generator
Understanding customers is key to future-proofing. Balancing profit and customer expectations is challenging. Compassionate capitalism enhances experiences. CX often struggles to align with business goals. Leaders must prioritize CX transformation. Customer expectations vary globally, affecting strategies. Removing friction boosts satisfaction. Quality is expected; ease sets businesses apart. Adapting to evolving customer behaviors is critical. Seamless experiences are vital for success. AI can reduce friction but shouldn't replace humans. CX is often undervalued in decision-making. Friction causes dissatisfaction and customer loss. Generational preferences demand awareness. Prioritize CX during economic downturns. AI should enhance, not hinder, service. Understanding needs reduces unnecessary support calls. Visibility into processes boosts satisfaction. CX insights should inform operations.Follow David Here
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Jochem Van Der Veer and John Cutler discuss the intersection of product management and customer experience, emphasizing the importance of customer centricity and aligning business strategies with customer perspectives. They explore the challenges of siloed departments, the role of leadership in fostering a customer-centric culture, and the need for situational awareness and innovation. The conversation highlights the importance of multi-frame thinking, cultural shifts, and integrating business metrics with customer insights. They also address the complexities of defining a North Star metric and advocate for a balanced approach combining top-down directives and bottom-up innovation.
Chapter Breakdown
(00:00) Podcast Introduction
(03:00) Overlooked Aspects of Customer Centricity
(07:10) Differences in Product Management by Company Size
(12:08) Breaking Product Team Silos
(17:29) The Challenge of Scaling Without Silos
(23:16) Innovation vs. Incremental Improvement
(28:30) Organizing Around Features vs. Customer Needs
(34:07) Examples of Thriving Product Teams
(40:53) Leadership's Role in Bridging CX and Product
(47:02) Avoiding Irreversible Decisions in CX
(53:48) Building Skills for Customer-Centric Teams
(57:58) Defining a Company’s North Star Metric
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In this conversation, Jochem Van Der Veer interviews Marc Fonteijn, a prominent figure in the service design community, discussing the evolution of service design, the importance of community, and the challenges faced by service designers today. They explore the dual nature of service design—commercial versus philosophical—and the ethical responsibilities that come with it. Marc shares insights on cultivating influence within organizations, the significance of personal growth, and the ongoing issue of burnout among service design professionals. In this conversation, Marc and Jochem explore the evolving landscape of service design, discussing the importance of individual contributors, the integration of design thinking into leadership roles, and the challenges of maintaining effective meetings and workshops. They delve into the significance of design language and the impact of educational systems on design thinking. The discussion also touches on parenting, community building, and the role of friendships in professional growth, emphasizing the need for supportive networks in the service design field.
Takeaways:
- Service design has evolved significantly over the years.
- Building a community is about creating a safe space for professionals.
The challenges of community management often revolve around people dynamics.
- Service design is not just about processes; it's about impacting customer experience.
- There are two streams in service design: commercial and philosophical.
- The decline in service design job titles may indicate broader acceptance of the practice.
- Ethics in service design is crucial for sustainable solutions.
- Influence in organizations requires ongoing relationship building.
- Personal growth and reflection are essential for service designers.
- Burnout is a systemic issue that needs to be addressed in the community. - - Curiosity can transform organizational challenges into design opportunities.
- There is a stigma around career advancement in service design.
- Individual contributors are essential for the growth of service design.
- Design thinking should be integrated into leadership roles.
- Workshops can be more effective than traditional meetings.
- Design language should be accessible to everyone.
- Educational systems often hinder creative thinking.
- Encouraging children to visualize and prototype fosters creativity.
- Discipline and curiosity are more reliable than motivation.
- Building friendships is crucial for community engagement.
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