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Papa, can you hear me?
It's the last episode of our Season of Babs, and we're going out strong! That's right: today we look at Barbra Streisand's magnum opus, the 1982 film Yentl – which she both directed and starred in.
We talk about:
Prayer & Texts: What it means to study sacred texts, and the critical differences between traditionally-Christian and traditionally-Jewish ways of understanding scripture.Sexuality & Gender: Is Yentl transphobic, or is it ahead of its time?Leadership & Power: Finally, a woman at the helm of a major Hollywood film! What does Barbra’s experience directing and starring in Yentl tell us about leadership and power?Boats: Barbra loves a ferry. What is it about boats, water, and crossing over that so compels her? How does it tie into the immigrant story and the American Dream?You’ll hear:
– Barbra singing “Where Is It Written,” “No Wonder,” “Several Sins A Day” (cut from the final film) and “A Piece of Sky”.
Continue the conversation with us on Instagram and The Platform Formerly Known as Twitter (@gospelofmt).
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Is it a musical? Is it a $6MM home movie? A contemporary Purim spiel? This is a weird movie, you guys.
The evergreen story of A Star Is Born has attracted legendary performers like Judy Garland, Barbra Streisand, and Lady Gaga. Today, Peter and Nathan focus on the 1976 film version with Barbra and Kris Kristofferson in the context of Gaga and Garland.
We talk about:
The Backstory: Dorothy Parker, Moss Hart, David O. Selznick, Joan Didion, and all the geniuses who should have made a better movie.The Crowd: 1970s, rock-and-roll culture and the phenomenon of contemporary celebrity culture. Is this idolatry in the way that Hebrew Scripture warn against?The Addiction: Does addiction help contemporary people understand ancient theological ideas like sin and shame?The Money: Why does Hollywood keep spoon-feeding us stories about self-destructive men and the women around them? Why do we keep paying money to see them?The Music: Ephemeral moments of artistic, intellectual, and spiritual connection found between two artists. How well does the Oscar-winning "Evergreen" capture this phenomenon?You’ll hear:
Kris Kristofferson and Barbra on the 1976 film soundtrack singing "Watch Closely Now," "The Woman in the Moon," and (of course) the 1976-Oscar-Winning classic, "Evergreen."Continue the conversation with us on Instagram and The Platform Formerly Known as Twitter (@gospelofmt).
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It may not be a musical, but it sure is close... It's The Way We Were!
It’s 1973. Watergate has happened. Barbra Streisand, Robert Redford, Arthur Laurents, and Sidney Pollack get together to re-create the weepy romcom in the non-musical—but musical-theatre-adjacent!—classic The Way We Were.
We talk about:
The Conflict: Streisand & Laurents versus Pollack & Redford, and some of the behind-the-scenes drama that led to the creation of this classic.The Song: Marvin Hamlisch’s classic song that put the film on the map.The Laughter: What does it mean to sing, "so it’s the laughter we will remember?" Laughter emerges as a marker of class & race in this film. How does that marker intersect with the misty, watercolor nature of memory – and the danger of nostalgia?The People & the Principles: the film’s central conflict between personal relationships and principles, and how that conflict maps (and doesn't) onto religious systems. Is Christianity about people, or is it about principles?You’ll hear:
Barbra singing the film’s title song from the 1973 film soundtrack, and an excerpt from the 1998 episode of Sex in the City, Episode 18 (“Ex in the City”).Continue the conversation with us on Instagram and The Platform Formerly Known as Twitter (@gospelofmt).
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Peter and Nathan watched this movie so you don't have to!
It's time for a deep cut... We’re talking about the 1970 film version of Alan Jay Lerner and Burton Lane’s very strange musical, On A Clear Day You Can See Forever – a show about a psychiatrist with terrible boundaries.
We talk about:
ESP: Is there a meaningful distinction between extrasensory perception and Christian conceptions of spirituality and prayer? Reincarnation: We talk about the case of Bridey Murphy, the 19th-century Irishwoman who was purportedly reincarnated as a 20th century American housewife. What are we supposed to believe about the afterlife? Grief: So many conversations about the afterlife happen in the context of death & grief. Does profound grief open us up to alternate conceptions of the universe in a way that can be helpful – or is that simply our emotions talking?Clothes: Always the clothes. The Cecil Beaton gowns! The turbans! Be still, our hearts!You’ll hear:
Yves Montand, Barbra Streisand and the cast of the film singing "Come Back To Me," "Love With All The Trimmings" and "On A Clear Day You Can See Forever" as well as the Peddlers’ version of the film’s title song.
Continue the conversation with us on Instagram and The Platform Formerly Known as Twitter (@gospelofmt).
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She's still glowin', she's still crowin,' she's still goin' strong...
That's right: we're continuing our deep dive into the great Barbra Streisand with a look at the mid-60s Broadway classic, Jerry Herman’s Hello Dolly!
We talk about:
Discernment: Dolly is a woman on a journey out of grief – and is looking for her sign. What kind of a theology of discernment does the show depend on?Gender: We take a close look at Horace’s song about marriage, “It Takes A Woman” and dig a little bit underneath the surface of the show’s fun to pull apart the class and economics of male-female relationships.Clothes: So much of Hello Dolly is about the clothes – the actual costumes the actors are wearing, and the show’s deeper fixation on the performative nature of class, gender and race.Restaurants: What does it mean that Dolly comes back home where she belongs? Is this the show’s resurrection moment?Moments: Falling in love, Kairos time, moments of divinity and resurrection and where they find us – in church, in the theatre, in the eyes of a beloved.You’ll hear:
The 1969 film soundtrack: La Streisand, Walter Matthau, Michael Crawford, Louis Armstrong and the full cast singing “Just Leave Everything To Me,” “It Takes a Woman,” “Ribbons Down My Back,” “Put On Your Sunday Clothes,” “Elegance,” “Before the Parade Passes By,” “It Only Takes a Moment” and, of course, “Hello, Dolly!”
Continue the conversation with us on Instagram and The Platform Formerly Known as Twitter (@gospelofmt).
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Isn’t it "people who DON'T need people are the luckiest people in the world?"
Today we look at the role that made Barbara Streisand's early career: the role of Fanny Brice in Jule Styne & Bob Merrill’s 1964 musical Funny Girl and the 1968 film directed by William Wyler.
We talk about:
The Greatest Star: The phenomenon of the original Fanny Brice, how Barbra got involved in the project, and where the line between ego, strength, and vanity lies.The Audience: The sacred relationship between performer and audience and Barbra’s theory of audience (or—in a religious context—a congregation) as a truth barometer.The Patriarchy: Nick Arnstein & Fanny Brice's relationship, Barbra & her male collaborators, the creep factor of "You are Woman," and the dangerous myth of romantic love (attention straight people: beware writing your own vows!)The Parade: Is "Don’t Rain on My Parade" a feminist anthem?The People: What’s the theology of people who need people? Is this just a hymn to extroversion, or does it channel Archbishop Desmond Tutu’s theology of ubuntu?You’ll hear:
– The 1968 Film Soundtrack: "I’m the Greatest Star," Omar Shariff and Barbra singing "You Are Woman, I am Man," "My Man," "Don’t Rain on My Parade" and—of course—"People."
Continue the conversation with us on Instagram and The Platform Formerly Known as Twitter (@gospelofmt).
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Everybody said don't, but we're doing it anyway... It's the Gospel According to Babs!
It's the queerest thing we've ever done. This season, we're focusing on the musical (and musical-adjacent) films of one of the greats – Barbra Streisand: GOAT queer diva, filmmaker, actor, and singer, who just released her autobiography My Name is Barbra.
We talk about:
– The Method: Barbra’s early training in the method developed by Konstantin Stanislavski and his students in the early decades of the 20th century – and the theology of human experience it depends on.
– The Albums: Streisand as an interpreter of the American Songbook, and the ways in which her acting training influences her recording career.
– The power of thought as Barbra’s autobiography (and discography!) expresses it. Do thoughts really transcend matter?
– Keep a performance fresh – how to stay in the moment when the moment needs to be repeated over and over.
– Streisand as prophet and priest. How does an artist bring a prophetic voice to society?
You’ll hear:
– Mostly Barbra! “Putting it Together” from the Broadway Album (1985), “Everybody Says Don’t” from Back to Broadway (1993) and “Guilty” (with Barry Gibbs!) from 1980.
Continue the conversation with us on Instagram and The Platform Formerly Known as Twitter (@gospelofmt).
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Schmigadoon is back on Apple TV! The second season takes us in a slightly different direction, and today we explore the theology of the musicals being lovingly spoofed by "Schmicago" and wonder what it means that "every day can be a happy beginning."
(By the way... if you missed our episode on Schmigadoon Season 1, you can listen here, or wherever you get your podcasts!)
We talk about:
– The power of parables, and how stories can (and can’t) transform us.
– The theology of the Broadway musicals of the 60s & 70s, steeped in sex & nihilism, and how Schmicago navigates – and ultimately rejects – that theology.
– We explore the show’s ending, and what kind of theology is implicit in the final number.
You’ll hear: Cecily Strong, Keegan-Michael Key, Kristen Chenoweth, Alan Cumming, Tituss Burgess, Dove Cameron, Aaron Tveit and the cast of Schmigadoon Season 2.
Continue the conversation with Peter (@pgeinvan) and Nathan (@nathan_lerud) on Twitter, and follow the Gospel of Musical Theatre on Instagram or Twitter @gospelofmt.
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If you're just joining us... It's priestly, it's profane, it's the queerest thing we've ever done – it's the Gospel of Musical Theatre, the podcast that dives deep into the spirituality of musical theatre!
When we can't find any spiritual themes to talk about, we talk about the clothes and the chorus boys.
Previous seasons:
Season 1: Rodgers & Hammerstein
Season 2: Lerner & Loewe
Season 3: Stephen Sondheim
Season 4: Andrew Lloyd Weber
Season 5: Barbra Streisand
Bonus episodes:
Schmigadoon, Season 1Schmigadoon, Season 2Steven Spielberg's West Side StoryThe Music Man (Pride Edition!)Sondheim & JudaismMeet the Hosts:
Nathan LeRud is a native Oregonian, a pastor’s kid, and a musical theatre geek. With degrees in theology (General Theological Seminary) and English (Whitman College), his great loves are teaching the Bible, exploring Oregon history, attending vintage matinees at the Hollywood Theatre and finding the intersection of popular culture and religion. Nathan is currently Dean of Trinity Cathedral in Portland, Oregon. He also knows how to clog.
Peter Elliott has loved musical theatre his whole life. At age 12, he appeared as Oliver Twist in a semi-professional production of Oliver! During his time as Dean of Christ Church Cathedral in Vancouver, British Columbia, it was the location of many musical theatre productions, including a memorable three night revue of the work of Stephen Sondheim September in the Cathedral with Sondheim, and Jubilation: 125 Years of Musical Theatre.
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Nathan and Peter welcome Ian Farthing, Vancouver-based actor & director and one of the original London ushers for the West End Production of Starlight Express (1984). We explore the theology & themes of Starlight Express – as well as Lloyd Webber’s more recent musical Sunset Boulevard (1993).
We talk about:
– Theatre as a vocation, and how vocations – religious or artistic – change over the course of a life.
– Where does “the power to move” come from – and how do we learn to run the race with integrity?
– Who knew (other than Peter!) that Donald Trump’s favorite film is Sunset Boulevard?
– We gossip a bit about our favorite Norma Desmonds, but don’t come to any real theological conclusions (but we love flannel on a man!)
You’ll hear:
– Excerpts from the original cast recording of Starlight Express (1984)
– Betty Buckley performing “With One Look” live at Carnegie Hall (2006)
– Patti LuPone singing “As If We Never Said Goodbye” and “The Lady’s Paying” from the Original London Cast Recording of Sunset Boulevard (1993)
– Rex Smith & Anita Louise Combe singing “Sunset Boulevard” & “Too Much In Love To Care” from the Canadian Cast Recording of Sunset Boulevard (1996)
Continue the conversation with Peter (@pgeinvan) and Nathan (@nathan_lerud) on Twitter, and follow the Gospel of Musical Theatre on Instagram or Twitter @gospelofmt.
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We descend into the depths of the Paris Opera for the 1986 musical phenomenon The Phantom of the Opera – a troubling story about abuse, lust, and the power of music.. and one of the most successful & beloved musicals of all time.
We talk about:
– Is the Phantom (or "Erik" as he’s known in the original novel) a serpent or a savior?
– What is the relationship between Christine and the Phantom? An abusive mentor relationship, a forbidden love, an artistic partnership or a classic Gothic obsession?
– How did power and patriarchy operate in the Victorian world of the Paris Opera – and in the 1980s world of rock musicals?
You’ll hear:
– Michael Crawford, Sarah Brightman and the cast of the 1988 Broadway Cast Recording.
Continue the conversation with Peter (@pgeinvan) and Nathan (@nathan_lerud) on Twitter, and follow the Gospel of Musical Theatre on Instagram or Twitter @gospelofmt.
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Peterskins & Grumblethaniel (Peter & Nathan) ascend to the Heaviside Layer for a close theological reading of one of the strangest, silliest, and most sensational mega-musicals ever to tread the boards: the much-beloved and much-reviled 1981 spectacle that is CATS.
We talk about:
– The naming of cats and humans – the names that culture and society give us, and the ineffable name that is known only to God.
– Whether the feline characters are stand-ins for the seven deadly sins, and whether or not there is a morality tale at work (...or if maybe this is just a show about cats)
– The power of memory and finding meaning in moments of happiness (and the deeply theological question: “does the right cat die?”)
You’ll hear Betty Buckley, Ken Page, Terrance Mann, and the cast of the 1983 Broadway Cast Recording.
Continue the conversation with Peter (@pgeinvan) and Nathan (@nathan_lerud) on Twitter, and follow the Gospel of Musical Theatre on Instagram or Twitter @gospelofmt.
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It's Evita (1978)! The culmination of Lloyd Webber’s collaboration with lyricist Tim Rice, this show offers an epic look at politics, celebrity, and gender through the life of a contemporary saint, Argentina’s beloved First Lady Eva Peron (1919-1952).
We wonder:
– Whose politics are at work in Evita? What does the musical say about Argentinian politics, British politics, and maybe even North American politics?
– What does Evita have to say about sainthood? If Eva Peron is beatified by the Roman Catholic Church, what will that mean about how she is remembered?
– Do acts of charity enable or indict the structural forces that keep some people in power and others in poverty? What kind of social justice is Evita illustrating?
You’ll hear:
– Mandy Patinkin, Patty LuPone and Bob Gunton on the 1979 Original Broadway Cast Recording
– Madonna singing “You Must Love Me” and “Don’t Cry for Me, Argentina (Miami Mix)” from the 1996 Motion Picture Soundtrack
Continue the conversation with Peter (@pgeinvan) and Nathan (@nathan_lerud) on Twitter, and follow the Gospel of Musical Theatre on Instagram or Twitter @gospelofmt!
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It's finally here... Today, we turn to the Gospel According to Andrew Lloyd Webber: the Biblical rock-opera phenomenon that is Jesus Christ Superstar (1970)!
We talk about:
– The context of the late 60s/early 70s that gave rise to a rock opera treatment of the Jesus story
– The eroticism in Mary Magdalene’s (and maybe Judas’?) relationship with Jesus and the question of how sexuality & love intersect in the Christian tradition. What does it mean to fall in love with a God with a human body?
– Mary Magdalene (not a prostitute in the Bible!) and the way the musical treats her as a woman, a sex worker, and a romantic lead.
– Anti-Judaism and Anti-Semitism in Jesus Christ Superstar and in the New Testament and what responsibility Christians bear in challenging it.
– What kind of Christology (big fancy theological word for “understanding Jesus”) undergirds Jesus Christ Superstar, and whether there’s any good news in this musical.
You’ll hear:
– Ian Gillan, Murray Head, Yvonne Elliman and the cast of the Original Studio Recording (a.k.a. “The Brown Album”) from 1970.
– "Could Ye Not Watch With Me One Hour?" from John Stainer’s Crucifixion sung by the St. Michael Singers (Fox Records, 2009).
– Joshua Mostel singing "Herod’s Song" from the 1973 Original Motion Picture Soundtrack.
Continue the conversation with Peter (@pgeinvan) and Nathan (@nathan_lerud) on Twitter, and follow the Gospel of Musical Theatre on Instagram or Twitter @gospelofmt!
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We're baaaackkkk! We're kicking off our fourth season, a deep dive into the musicals of the one & only Andrew Lloyd Weber: one of the most esteemed and prolific musical theatre composers of all time.
In this episode, Nathan & Peter take a look at an early success he and lyricist Tim Rice had in 1968: Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat!
We talk about:
- The intersection of "liturgical" music (Lloyd Webber’s father was a church organist) with pop music
- Dreams, and how they function both in the religious tradition and contemporary pop psychology and musicals. Is it really true that, as Joseph sings, "any dream will do?"
- What Bible stories we think are appropriate for children – and which parts of the Bible we sanitize or gloss overto preserve a romanticized ideal of childhood innocence
You’ll hear Donny Osmond, Janet Metz and the cast of the 1992 Canadian Cast Recording (Really Useful Group Ltd under exclusive license to Universal Music Operations Limited).
Continue the conversation with Peter (@pgeinvan) and Nathan (@nathan_lerud) on Twitter, and follow the Gospel of Musical Theatre on Instagram or Twitter @gospelofmt.
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To celebrate Pride Month, Peter and Nathan are joined by the incredible Isaac Lamb and Stephanie Smith, director and musical director for a new and groundbreakingly queer production of Meredith Wilson’s 1957 classic musical The Music Man – which opens at Third Rail Repertory Theatre in Portland, OR, on June 17th.
We talk about:
– Theatre and church, chamber pieces versus extravagant spectacles, and what led Meredith Wilson to create The Music Man.
– The nature of “political” casting choices, what it means for six women and non-binary actors to take on these roles, and why casting choices matter.
– Learning how to sing and learning how to play an instrument – both in the story of The Music Man and in this production, where the actors accompany themselves.
-The purity (and politics!) of joy, and why a show like The Music Man can help us imagine new possibilities in a multi-racial, multiply-abled, diverse, and rapidly changing world.
– We reference Meredith Wilson’s 1957 book But He Doesn’t Know the Territory which was reissued by University of Minnesota Press in 2020.
You’ll hear:
Robert Preston, Barbara Cook and the company of the original New York production singing “Seventy-Six Trombones,” “My White Knight” “Sincere,” “Gary, Indiana,” “Rock Island,” “Pick-a-Little” and “Shipoopi”Continue the conversation with Peter (@pgeinvan) and Nathan (@nathan_lerud) on Twitter, and follow the Gospel of Musical Theatre on Instagram or Twitter @gospelofmt.
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We're welcoming a very special guest: Ed Bacon, legendary leader of progressive Christian causes and an inveterate Sondheim fan!
With Ed’s help, we pull apart the spirituality, theology (and the trichology!) of what is probably Stephen Sondheim’s best-known—and arguably best-loved) musical, the 1987 masterpiece Into the Woods.
We talk about:
- The subversive nature of fairy tales, and what we think we’re doing when we tell these stories to children
- What it means to go “into the woods” – and how can we befriend it?
- Being nice, being good, losing our innocence – and what it means to be "white"
- The complicated nature of community, and the promise and threat of the idea that "no one is alone"
- The Gospel as Fairy Tale (with apologies and gratitude for Frederick Buechner’s Telling the Truth, the book that caused at least one of us to become a priest!)
You’ll hear:
- Bernadette Peters, Chip Zien, Joanna Gleason and the cast of the Original Broadway Cast Recording (1987) singing “Prologue,” “Giants in the Sky,” “Hello, Little Girl,” “I Know Things Now,” “No One Is Alone”, “Last Midnight,” and “Children Will Listen”
Continue the conversation with Peter (@pgeinvan) and Nathan (@nathan_lerud) on Twitter, and follow the Gospel of Musical Theatre on Instagram or Twitter @gospelofmt.
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It's time for Peter’s favorite Sondheim musical: Sunday in the Park with George!
Stephen Sondheim & James Lapine’s Pulitzer Prize-winning 1985 musical masterpiece is a beautiful meditation on art and art-making. We love this show, and we hope you will too.
We talk about:
- Making art, preaching sermons, and the art of living – and suffering & failure in art... and life
- Noticing & cultivating attention as a spiritual practice
- The relational power of art – and the challenge of living with artists!
- The multi-faceted nature of the word (and the hymn!) "Sunday:" a day of rest, a day of sabbath, the finding of shalom
You’ll hear:
- Bernadette Peters, Mandy Patinkin and the cast of the Original Broadway Cast Recording (1984) singing "Putting It Together," "Finishing the Hat," "We Do Not Belong Together," "Sunday Hymn," "The Day Off," "It’s Hot Up Here," and "Move On"
Continue the conversation with Peter (@pgeinvan) and Nathan (@nathan_lerud) on Twitter, and follow the Gospel of Musical Theatre on Instagram or Twitter @gospelofmt.
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Peter & Nathan's keep rolling through the Sondheim oeuvre with his most notorious "flop," the 1981 Merrily We Roll Along!
Is it really a bitter, nihilistic look at growing older? Or is there actually something—dare we say—holy at work in this experimental, bittersweet musical about growing up?
We Talk About:
- Is it true that, as Mary says, "God don’t answer prayers a lot?"
- How Merrily illustrates a theology of friendship and an understanding (a queer understanding?) of the spiritual life
- What Merrily says about human relationships and the need to "burn your bridges every now and then"
- Different ways of thinking about time – sacramental, liturgical, narrative – and how Merrily subverts conventional notions of the narrative and reflects a more sacred sense of time.
You’ll Hear:
- The Original Company of Merrily We Roll Along on the Original Broadway Cast Recording singing "The Hills of Tomorrow," "Opening Doors," "Now You Know," "Good Thing Going," "Our Time" and "Bobby and Jackie and Jack"
- Celia Keenan-Bolger and Lin-Manuela Miranda singing "Old Friends" and "Like It Was" from the 2012 Encores! Cast Recording
- Bernadette Peters singing "Not A Day Goes By"
Continue the conversation with Peter (@pgeinvan) and Nathan (@nathan_lerud) on Twitter, and follow the Gospel of Musical Theatre on Instagram or Twitter @gospelofmt!
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Sort of-guest Arwen Myers—soprano, Sweeney stan, and executive producer of this podcast—joins Peter and Nathan for a wide-reaching conversation about her favorite musical... which just happens to be about murder and meat pies (and Victor Garber).
That's right: it's the 1979 Tony-Award winning Sweeney Todd: The Demon Barber of Fleet Street!
We talk about:
- The medieval chant Dies Irae and how it frames Sweeney Todd as a story about death, violence, and revenge with explicitly religious overtones.
– Who’s the real villain of Sweeney Todd? We talk about how none of these characters are who they appear to be, and how the music helps to signal what’s going on underneath.
– The various versions of Christianity that haunt this show, notions of sacred violence, sin & sacrifice, and the redemptive promise—or false lure?—of blood.
– The social and cultural aspects of the world that’s being presented – and we make of the warning embedded in this very dark musical. Is Sweeney "out there..." or is he inside each of us?
– Is this show actually about Victor Garber?
You’ll hear:
Angela Lansbury, Len Cariou, Ken Jennings, Victor Garber, and Edmund Lyndeck on the Original Broadway Cast Recording singing "The Ballad of Sweeney Todd," "A Little Priest," "Johanna," "The Worst Pies in London," "Epiphany," and "Not While I’m Around."Continue the conversation with Peter (@pgeinvan) and Nathan (@nathan_lerud) on Twitter, and follow the Gospel of Musical Theatre on Instagram or Twitter @gospelofmt.
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