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The era of top-down energy projects is over. Today demands collaboration, equity, and stakeholder engagement. And in the clean energy movement, Indigenous partnerships often lead the way. James Jenkins, Executive Director of Indigenous Clean Energy, joins thinkenergy to unpack the Regenerative Energy 2026 Report. He explores what a just transition looks like, how Indigenous communities are shaping the future, and what the industry can learn from working together.
Related links:
Indigenous Clean Energy: https://indigenouscleanenergy.com/
James Jenkins on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/james-jenkins-27787913b/
Regenerative Energy 2026 Report: https://indigenouscleanenergy.com/regenerative-energy-national-survey-2026/
Bringing it Home Program: https://indigenouscleanenergy.com/our-programs/bringing-it-home/
Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114
Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en
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Transcript:
[00:00] Trevor Freeman: Welcome to Think Energy, a podcast that dives into the fast-changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators, and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional, and up-and-coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback, or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at [email protected].
[00:26] Trevor Freeman: Hi everyone, and welcome back. We often talk on this show about the what of the energy transition. What needs to happen, what is happening, what technologies or initiatives are growing or up-and-coming. But it's also important to consider the how of it all. Energy systems are complex. That is something that should be clear in all the conversations we have around here, but it's not just technical complexity that we need to consider. Our energy systems are also socially, politically, and societally complex. It's not just a matter of picking the right technology and implementing it. If it was that case, we've got, you know, most of the technology we need, and we'd be in a much better position than we currently are. We have to figure out how we move these projects forward.
[01:14] Trevor Freeman: Traditionally, energy projects have been these large, top-down infrastructure projects. But increasingly, we're moving into a time when collaboration, equity, and stakeholder engagement are critical components of project success. One area where this can be seen—and, in fact, it's an area that's really pushing a lot of this change—is Indigenous leadership.
[01:38] Trevor Freeman: Over the past decade here in Canada, at least, we've seen a profound evolution where Indigenous communities are not just participants in the clean energy transition or kind of bystanders; they are actively leading it in many cases. That's not to say all the problems or challenges have been solved, but we're seeing a lot of movement here. And that's the topic of my conversation today.
[02:02] Trevor Freeman: To help us understand the scale of this movement, I'm joined by James Jenkins. James is the Executive Director of Indigenous Clean Energy, which is a leading organization accelerating First Nations, Inuit, and Métis participation in clean energy projects from coast to coast. I'm really excited to have James on the show today because his expertise comes straight from real, actual experience on these projects. As a proud member and former CEO of the Walpole Island First Nation, James personally drove the equity development for two 100-megawatt wind farms for his community. Today, he leverages that firsthand experience along with a diverse background in consulting, local government, and academia to serve as a national champion for Indigenous clean energy partnerships.
[02:54] Trevor Freeman: His organization just released their third national survey, the Regenerative Energy 2026 report, which provides a really eye-opening snapshot of how Indigenous communities are shaping Canada's energy future through innovation, equity ownership, and community-driven solutions. So today, we're going to dive into the findings of this report, talk a little bit about, you know, what a just energy transition looks like, and explore what utility and industry players can learn from these successful partnerships. James Jenkins, welcome to the show.
[03:31] James Jenkins: Hi Trevor, thank you for having me.
[03:34] Trevor Freeman: So, James, let's start a little bit with some background. Tell us about Indigenous Clean Energy and how your organization works to advance First Nations, Inuit, and Métis participation in the clean energy sector.
[03:47] James Jenkins: Sure. Indigenous Clean Energy is a not-for-profit organization, and we've been operating for about 10 years. So we started 10 years ago with the 2020 Catalyst Program, which was designed to develop a cohort of clean energy leaders coming primarily from Indigenous communities and businesses that could really shape the future of Indigenous participation in the energy transition. So we started with a cohort. It was led by just a few staff and our founding director, Chris Henderson. And this is our 10th year, so we'll be celebrating 10 years of the 2020 Catalyst Program at our national gathering in August.
[04:24] Trevor Freeman: Awesome. Congrats.
[04:26] James Jenkins: Thank you so much. So the goal of that program was to really expand the opportunities, the capacity, and the number of communities engaged in clean energy. And we have seen that progress tremendously over the last 10 years. We've seen federal grant programs to support that work also emerge as major contributors, and we've seen utilities across the country get on board and try to find ways to expand Indigenous participation.
[04:54] James Jenkins: So we've seen quite a bit of success, and with that success, we've grown as well. So we're now a team of about 35, and we're much larger. So we've expanded into a few other areas. One of them is youth, so we have two different youth programs. And we've expanded into energy efficiency as well, mostly under our "Bringing It Home" umbrella.
[05:16] James Jenkins: And the idea behind that is we've seen the success of the 2020 Catalyst Program and clean energy leaders really pushing the envelope in terms of what is possible when it comes to Indigenous-led generation projects. So now we're identifying a gap still existing when it comes to energy efficiency. And so, in a way, we're trying to replicate the success of the 2020 Catalyst Program. We'll be running our third year of the Project Accelerator soon. So that's geared towards energy efficiency; it's an intensive training program, and it comes with a grant.
[05:47] James Jenkins: And finally, we have a policy arm as well that's also very involved in engaging at the community and regional level. So that's through our Energy and Climate team, and we have a national hub that just completed a series of directional gatherings regionally. We also have a global hub as well that's active in Oceania and Latin America.
[06:09] Trevor Freeman: Oh, that's fantastic. Tell me a little bit about the youth programs that you're running.
[06:14] James Jenkins: So, we support youth across our programs, but we have two programs in particular that are geared towards youth. One of them is the Imagination Program, which comes with wrap-around supports and training. Right now, we're developing a micro-credential with the University of Saskatchewan for our program participants. It comes with a grant to lead a community-scale project. A good example might be a solar-powered greenhouse. Many of them are linked to schools, and, you know, we see the passion of younger members of communities that want to move these projects forward, but it's entrepreneurial in spirit.
[06:49] James Jenkins: The second is called Generation Power, which is a wage subsidy program for Indigenous youth, and we pair them with employers in the clean energy field. So some of them are utilities or renewable businesses; in some cases, they're communities or Indigenous businesses that are moving forward on projects. And it's more than just a wage subsidy; we identify all of the potential barriers for Indigenous youth entering these jobs and provide those kinds of support to increase their chance of success and staying in the workforce after the placement.
[07:22] Trevor Freeman: Oh, that's very cool. We've talked a few times on this show about building that next generation of energy champions and people that are focused, you know, on this new form of energy—this new energy transition or this new world of energy that we're moving into. So fantastic to see you guys participating in that. That's really cool.
[07:42] Trevor Freeman: So, I want to spend some of our time here talking about the report that your organization recently released titled Regenerative Energy 2026. So before we dive into the specific data and the numbers, let's talk about, you know, just that title itself and what the document sets out to achieve. So first of all, tell us about that term, "regenerative energy." What does that mean? Why did you choose that title?
[08:09] James Jenkins: Sure. So just generally, regenerative energy is the idea that these projects are doing more than producing electricity for the market and potentially bringing in revenue. They're also contributing to the broader ecosystem, which could mean the ecology of the landscape or a reduction of carbon into the atmosphere. So it's looking at the wider impacts and planning energy with that in mind.
[08:33] James Jenkins: In the Indigenous context, it goes deeper than that. We're incorporating sovereignty, energy sovereignty, and acknowledging that communities are increasingly expecting to be able to move through their energy journey on their own terms. And so that could mean other outcomes in addition to just energy stability and security. It expands to food security, but also ultimately the community being able to plan its future—how does energy fit into that?
[09:03] James Jenkins: I think it fits into what we're seeing in Indigenous communities in general, where there is a need to revitalize our cultures, our practices, our governance structures. We're finding that the energy sector—it's a business sector and an opportunity and an expanding sector—but there's also alignment in terms of values in many places, with communities looking to have an impact on their landscape, on the ecology, and this is a way to do that.
[09:30] James Jenkins: So regenerative energy is acknowledging that there is this revitalization happening. It's not as though our communities, our governments, our nations were extinguished over the last 300 years. What does it mean in terms of revitalizing those practices, and how do all of these projects and ambitions when it comes to energy fit into that?
[09:51] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, I like that description. Thanks for that, James. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but is it fair to say that the choice to use "regenerative" instead of "renewable"—which is fairly buzzy as a term, everyone kind of has renewable energy on their mind—was a deliberate choice? You're building more aspects to it; there are more facets of the description you just gave of regenerative energy compared to just renewable energy. Is that fair to say?
[10:19] James Jenkins: Well, and that's true as well. And as you've read in the report, we're seeing projects expand beyond just what we would term "renewable" projects. So that was the bulk of the projects up until recently, but now transmission lines and battery storage are becoming more prominent.
[10:36] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, absolutely. Great. Okay, I do want to talk to you about that. So my second question kind of at a high level around the report is, you know, one of the goals or one of the things you're doing in this report is really compiling and tracking national data around these projects. Why is that important? Why is that something that you're striving to do—to really track and compile that data?
[10:59] James Jenkins: Well, in the context right now, we have a federal government that is trying to identify meaningful projects that can have an impact on the economy, have an impact on spurring economic growth in different regions. And so it's a critical time for us to broadcast information on our dataset because collectively, these projects that have Indigenous ownership and co-ownership are a massive portion of the electricity generating infrastructure of Canada, and they have a meaningful impact on the economy, but also the ability for communities to finance their own programs, to reinvest in economic development.
[11:36] James Jenkins: So it's a critical time from that perspective. I think there's a need for us to be even louder because collectively as a nation, we seem to be looking for these wins that can be a shot in the arm. You know, we're worried about economic growth, and here we have many examples of projects that have Indigenous participation and that are having these benefits that are allowing different regions that are not participating in the economy in as active a way—this is a real opportunity for them.
[12:05] James Jenkins: And unlike many of the mega-projects that we're thinking about right now, these have shorter timeframes, less challenges, and the risk is much more manageable in comparison. So, you know, we are trying to point out that, A, these kinds of projects—which are renewables, but also battery storage and some of these other projects—these are important for the federal government to continue to invest in because they have been investing in it heavily over the last 10 years, and that's part of the success story.
[12:35] James Jenkins: But there is also a set of learnings that can be drawn from when we have so many examples of good partnerships between Indigenous and non-Indigenous organizations moving these projects forward. So I think when we look into the future as to how this should look, what does Indigenous participation look like for these mega-projects, we have a bit of a blueprint that we can draw from.
[12:57] James Jenkins: And so we are trying to bring more attention to this. I think it's really step one. The federal government can pat itself on the back that it's been one of the key reasons why Indigenous participation in the energy sector has grown over the last 10 years, but it's not getting the attention it deserves in the current conversation. So I think that's why it's a really critical time, possibly for other non-government actors as well that are asking, "Well, in the current global and national framework, what is the best way to achieve climate outcomes, Indigenous participation in the economy, greater social outcomes?" And so we do want to point to this as a good news story that has a track record, and that's what the data really does—it speaks to that track record.
[13:41] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, you often hear it framed, and in fact, just, you know, we're recording this on a Monday—just over the weekend I was listening to the radio, one of those call-in shows that really framed the choice as, "you know, we either invest in climate solutions or we focus on the economy." And I think you can probably say, "we invest in, you know, Indigenous partnership or the economy, or climate solutions." And what I'm hearing from you is it doesn't have to be a zero-sum game. It doesn't have to be either/or. In fact, the data you're showing and the projects that you're highlighting show that all of these outcomes can be achieved with the right focus and with the right investment. Is that fair to say?
[14:21] James Jenkins: It is. And generally, the bucket of renewable projects or clean energy projects, the timelines are shorter, the cost is going to be easier to quantify, and the cost is coming down for these technologies—wind, solar, battery—in comparison to some of the other technologies that are being framed as the solution, which I think they will be. But framing it as either/or doesn't make much sense, especially when electricity demand is growing and it's an immediate issue.
[14:51] James Jenkins: So we should look at some of these immediate solutions and acknowledge it's still a question mark for some of the other sectors that are going to be involved in building out our electricity capacity. Mining, some of these other sectors, there are some examples of Indigenous participation, but not hundreds of examples of equity participation. And so, absolutely, I've been hearing those kinds of either/or arguments, or "no more federal grants, we should have access to capital instead." That could do a real injustice to the existing capacity that's already there, like the number of people in energy offices at Indigenous communities right now.
[15:28] Trevor Freeman: Yeah. So let's dive into some of the data then. You know, you see headlines sometimes about major Indigenous clean energy projects happening in collaboration, and the data in your report really backs this up. I don't want to throw too many stats out there for our listeners, but just quickly, you know, there are over 350 medium-to-large electricity generation projects across Canada with Indigenous participation. We've got 250 of those already operational, the rest in either construction or planning stages. From your perspective, James, you kind of already touched on this—the role of the federal government driving some of this momentum and visibility—just expand on that a little bit. Like, how did we get to these pretty impressive numbers where we're seeing lots of these projects?
[16:15] James Jenkins: Sure, definitely. I think the origin goes back at least to around 2000 to 2008 when there was a series of Supreme Court decisions that ruled in favor of Indigenous communities when it comes to the duty to consult and accommodate—that's what the Supreme Court ultimately called it. So that's a framework that was very important when it came to Indigenous engagement in energy projects.
[16:43] James Jenkins: As the UN Declaration starts to gain traction in our country, it may become less important, but it was certainly a turning point. So decisions like Mikisew Cree up to Tsilhqot'in created a framework where communities could get involved and had the legal backing to do so. Some jurisdictions—with Ontario probably taking the lead at that time, BC following, and many others following that model—supported Indigenous communities so that they could be involved in what the Supreme Court was framing as consultation. And what that meant was having the capacity to be engaged in project review. And often, the developer bore the cost of that.
[17:23] James Jenkins: But there could be positive outcomes because it meant there was a framework and an impetus for communities and developers to sit down at the table when the development was taking place in the territory of an Indigenous community and their rights were potentially going to be impacted. So as that process became the norm in most regions in Canada, what emerged was this mechanism called an Impact Benefit Agreement as a way for the developer and the Indigenous community to sit down and say, "Okay, we've identified these impacts—and these are impacts to the practicing of rights that are enshrined in the Constitution, so there's this channel back to the Supreme Court decisions—so we'll have a confidential agreement called an Impact Benefit Agreement to offset those impacts," which never really fit the spirit of the Supreme Court decisions, but it was adopted all over the country.
[18:14] James Jenkins: And when Ontario and BC went to bring more renewables onto the grid more quickly, they were looking at different ways to ensure there was the kind of local participation, and so they experimented with creating incentives for Indigenous equity participation in the projects. Sometimes that included municipal participation as well, but we saw a large uptake in that. And that was something I was involved in; I was a band manager in my community of Walpole Island First Nation in the past, and while this was happening, I had some other roles.
[18:47] James Jenkins: But we saw it as an opportunity, and ultimately, there were many renewable projects entering the grid in Southern Ontario at a rapid rate. One of the things we were able to identify was that equity participation brought much more benefit to the community than an Impact Benefit Agreement. In the kind of projects we were looking at, it was usually tenfold if you quantified the net revenue from equity participation versus the takeaway from an Impact Benefit Agreement.
[19:17] James Jenkins: So that started to become the norm, and Indigenous communities started to see this as a more meaningful way to address the need for development to happen rapidly in certain regions and especially with renewables. So there was a period where new hydroelectric projects started to include some equity participation, and then we saw, with the expansion of wind and to some extent solar, that happening at a rapid rate starting about 2008.
[19:44] James Jenkins: It's expanded since then for a few reasons. So one is that over time, most regions in Canada have—most provinces have directed their utilities to put incentives in their calls to power to try to ensure more examples of Indigenous equity participation. The other possibility that's happened, which was more an Alberta story but it's been experimented with in some other jurisdictions, is a deregulated market where an Indigenous partner and non-Indigenous partner, or a fully Indigenous-owned project, can go to a consumer and negotiate a power purchase agreement, sell power directly. Sometimes having an Indigenous community providing power provides other benefits to the purchaser, whether it's the industrial or commercial partner, and so that led to quite a few projects as well in Alberta for completely different reasons.
[20:34] Trevor Freeman: Would those other benefits be like preferred rates? What are the other benefits that you're referring to there?
[20:39] James Jenkins: It could be preferred rates. In many cases, it's things like corporate responsibility, just the sustainability measures of having, you know, purchasing from an Indigenous partner. So that was enough of an incentive to really, you know, spur a market in those areas.
[20:56] James Jenkins: And then we've seen the federal government invest through grant programs in Indigenous capacity in the energy sector. So that has allowed communities in many regions to engage in these opportunities and just have the staff to do it. Because most communities are generally dealing with many, many issues all at once—it's like three levels of government all in one, and most services are underfunded. So being able to actively participate in these opportunities, ensure there is enough trust to move forward and that the community is coming along with it, usually requires some expertise and people in the community that understand energy enough to keep everybody engaged. And these federal grant programs have contributed to that as well.
[21:40] Trevor Freeman: Yeah. So with this change over the last let's call it 20-odd years or so, is there a fairly established model or process now that you see Indigenous communities and partners working through, or is every kind of new project finding its way anew? I guess what I'm asking is, yeah, is there an established process? Is it kind of like you know how these projects are going to go now, given that there's quite a bit of experience over the last 20 years?
[22:06] James Jenkins: It's not an established process. And so we—for our Energy and Climate team—we engaged with BC Hydro and Manitoba Hydro to some extent on their recent calls to power and procurement because they're both looking at ways to ensure there's more Indigenous equity in projects, and there are different models to choose from. But there is the ability to look at what happened in different jurisdictions, draw from maybe what worked and what didn't, and so we're seeing utilities start to do that as they develop new procurement procedures.
[22:38] James Jenkins: On the partnership side, things continue to evolve, and there's always the risk that some of these partnerships may be less beneficial to the Indigenous partner. So another report we released six months ago with Clean Energy BC is an equity guide, and the target audience of that is Indigenous communities that are looking at these equity participation opportunities to make sure that the process is fair to them and transparent to them. So there is a framework in place, but I think there's always a need to ensure that communities have access to the tools so that they have a meaningful seat at the table. And it's not a given that those will be in place, so it is an area where we place some of our efforts.
[23:22] Trevor Freeman: And have you seen a change—like you talked about kind of the initial push for a lot of renewable projects being part of the impetus of seeing a big expansion here in Indigenous partnership—at least here in Ontario, which of course is where I'm sitting and we're having this conversation, there was a bit of a slowdown in that, but as we see demand significantly increasing, we're looking at more and more projects. So are you seeing that ebb and flow of project participation as well, or has it been pretty steady in terms of engagement over the last little while?
[23:54] James Jenkins: In most regions, it's been growing. So you look at the Atlantic region, Quebec is really pushing for Indigenous participation in renewables. In most regions, that's happening—Maritimes very much so right now.
[24:10] James Jenkins: In Ontario, we saw with the results of the most recent call to power quite a few northern projects, which is a bit surprising, but I know that's what they wanted to see happen, and it opens up some opportunity for communities in Northern Ontario. In Ontario, I think there are more regions where renewables are less socially accepted right now. And I talk to some people in Southern Ontario that are surprised how accepted it is in most of the country, with a few exceptions. So, you know, I think we might see ways that Ontario tries to draw projects in, whether it's within regions or partners where there is that social acceptance. But that's to be seen.
[24:50] James Jenkins: But Ontario, like other places, knows they need to meet this growing demand, and renewables are relatively quick to deploy, relatively low risk, and will likely be part of that solution, just like everywhere.
[25:05] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, absolutely. Great. Okay, I do want to talk to you about that. So my next question, you mentioned this a few times, that we're not just talking about solar panels and wind turbines, which I think is what most people think of when they think of clean energy projects, but you have mentioned a significant growth in transmission projects as well as battery storage. And there's a number of projects that are now kind of in operation with Indigenous co-ownership that fall into that transmission and battery storage category. So tell us about the economic opportunity for Indigenous communities of these types of projects, not just generation projects.
[25:44] James Jenkins: Right. So battery storage is growing more along the same trajectory as those generation projects have been in the past, and as the cost for battery storage has come down, it's become a very viable way for utilities and provinces to deal with the intermittency of electricity and increase stability while meeting targets for carbon emissions. So we're seeing more Indigenous leadership in that area.
[26:10] James Jenkins: And there's a premier project in Ontario, the Oneida Energy Storage Project, where Six Nations of the Grand River approached NRStor, their partner, to develop the project and then went to the Ontario government and said, "This is what we'd like to do, this is how we see it will meet some of the needs." So there was some real ingenuity in there, and I think in some way, that's an example of what could be the next stage in terms of Indigenous energy planning as that kind of capacity builds because Six Nations of the Grand River had quite a bit of experience under their belt in terms of participating in energy projects.
[26:45] James Jenkins: And then Ontario has also been the leader in procuring battery storage projects, and for the most part, most of them have Indigenous equity participation in those projects. A lot of them benefit from existing relationships between construction companies and communities that can look at these opportunities and co-design them together. And I think we'll start to see that in other parts of the country as that builds. But it is a major opportunity as the technology allows us to meet some of the need to stabilize the grid, and, you know, it could reduce our reliance on solutions like natural gas, so it's a real opportunity.
[27:21] James Jenkins: When it comes to transmission lines, it's a slightly different trajectory, but I think it goes back to the duty to consult and accommodate and parties sitting at the table understanding where do we go from here when there's a project that is going to have this enormous landscape impact and we can no longer do what we did in the past, which was ignore any Indigenous rights on the landscape.
[27:46] James Jenkins: And I was in Ontario for the last 20 or so years and witnessed the demand from Indigenous communities to participate in transmission projects. It wasn't passive in any way. So now we hear from utilities that are saying the right thing to do is to provide these opportunities, which is fantastic. But back then, it really was Indigenous people with the foresight and the stubbornness to for years say, "No, we need a solution that's going to meet all of our needs." And as we started to see some examples—Saugeen and Nawash being one of the first, and then others in Ontario where there would be this kind of Indigenous co-ownership—it gradually started to become more accepted.
[28:25] James Jenkins: And now it's part of the plan in many regions of Ontario, and this is a way to move the project forward, have Indigenous communities on board, and when they're sitting there as partners, there are a number of advantages that they bring to the table because in many cases there is knowledge of the landscape itself. And looking at preferred routes and other major decisions can really benefit from having these communities at the table providing their knowledge as opposed to sitting sort of on the other side of an adjudication table, which is only going to add risk to a project.
[29:00] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, I mean we see all parts of the electricity sector growing, and transmission is one of those areas for sure that in order to support electrification across the province, we're going to see more transmission. So it's great to hear that this is an area that is growing, or getting more buy-in, or there's more partnership happening in all parts of the electricity sector.
[29:21] Trevor Freeman: So, James, you talked about regenerative energy earlier, we touched on that a little bit, and how that term is focused on being built on fairer and more equitable relationships. In your report, you kind of take this a step further by explicitly stating that this work seeks to advance the Truth and Reconciliation Commission—notably, Call to Action number 92. And so for our listeners who are not familiar—and please, definitely step in here if you want to explain it differently than I'm going to—but Call to Action 92 specifically calls on corporate Canada to adopt the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, to commit to meaningful consultation and consent, and ensure Indigenous communities gain equitable access to jobs, training, and long-term economic benefits.
[30:13] Trevor Freeman: So we often hear reconciliation discussed in a social or a political context, but your report really points to the actual act of Indigenous-led clean energy infrastructure and how that can embody this reconciliation in a material and meaningful way. And I apologize that I'm rambling a lot, this is a long question. How does building out physical infrastructure—like generation programs, transmission lines that we've been talking about, battery storage—how does that advance these goals that are kind of laid out and described in this particular Call to Action?
[30:52] James Jenkins: Mm-hmm. And you're right, the benefits of these projects isn't just the net revenue, but it's also apprenticeships, jobs, the business capacity that comes with participating in the project, and sometimes the ability to open up opportunities for practicing harvesting rights where, when Indigenous communities don't have a seat at the table, often the gate or the door is shut to opportunities and access. So it's a way to open those up.
[31:19] James Jenkins: And in my experience with projects in my community, when we were reviewing projects through the IBA or Impact Benefit Agreement process, the goal was always a number of apprenticeships, contribution to education, capacity, and it was always a good news story getting some jobs, employment readiness out of the project. And it was a remarkable shift to be sitting at the table as a partner and be discussing those same outcomes and really led to more of a spirit of cooperation. And we had some really great successes come out of that.
[31:51] James Jenkins: As well as community members feeling like, "This is an industry that I can go work in, and I'm not a stranger in a strange land. My community has a stake in this," and feel that sense of ownership but also home, which can be this indirect challenge when it comes to people entering the workforce and sticking with it. So that kind of ownership—it's part of the solution, how do we grow the Indigenous workforce? When the Indigenous communities have a financial interest in it, it really changes the picture quite a bit, and it really helps with the foreignness that can exist. And so we've seen the opposite in renewable industries and clean energy where many communities and youth are starting to see this as a viable career path and one that makes sense for them.
[32:38] James Jenkins: So, you know, and like I said before, when Indigenous communities are sitting at the table—and in my experience we had gone through project review on many, many projects because of the Impact Benefit Agreement process—we were able to bring that knowledge we had of project review to the table, which can help the project. So it was a real meaningful exchange of, "How can we meet these milestones on time? What can we bring to the table?" So there's that aspect of it, but then there's also the multi-generational knowledge that comes with living on the land.
[33:10] James Jenkins: And, you know, in some ways sitting down with elders, that does take a long time and commitment and is often different than how we would typically view going through the early stages of a project. But at the end of the day, it can lead to better outcomes and actually not take as long because the pathway to gain the knowledge for the least impact through a traditional process is also incredibly time-consuming. And so having an Indigenous party at the table that can bring the correct knowledge keeps things forward, making a meaningful decision from their perspective can really add value in that way as well.
[33:48] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, it's great to hear that you're seeing the impact of these programs on both the projects themselves and better outcomes in the projects, as well as building capacity and partnership in Indigenous communities. And I'm glad you kind of brought those youth programs back up; it's great to hear about those programs.
[34:07] Trevor Freeman: So, you have a report or you have a section sorry in your report called "Opportunities Unrealized," which really highlights major gaps or a gap for community-focused projects right now as different federal funding programs sunset, and you specifically call out three particular pillars that need renewed policy and funding commitment. So first off, you talk about 78 healthy energy housing projects that are mostly just small pilot initiatives. And that's looking at energy efficiency in homes, which you did touch on earlier, and how that's tied to Indigenous health and energy sovereignty. So how do we move beyond those pilots to fund these at scale? What are your thoughts on how we do that?
[34:53] James Jenkins: Right. So our approach is really, A, to support these pilots as much as we can so that we have that cohort of Indigenous leadership that has that experience in community, and so it can have that ripple effect where, when we started to see successful generation projects, some of them coming out of the 2020 Catalyst Program, other communities said, "Well, I want to do that too. How do I make that possible?" And then there's some leadership to grow from. So it's really catalyzing that momentum. And where do we start? So that's the piece in terms of making sure that there is a core group of energy leaders in communities that are almost at the stage where they can have a very impactful, community-scale project when it comes to efficiency that can be replicated and that there are individuals with this knowledge that are in the community.
[35:41] James Jenkins: So that's the first piece, but then the second piece and the other side of the coin that we're very active in is identifying what would the solution look like to make that kind of change repeatable on a national scale. And what we're generally pointing towards is some aspect of federal support, but also private investment as well. So what kind of mechanism can be put in place that will allow private finance to make sustainability programs for Indigenous healthy homes and buildings and infrastructure feasible?
[36:15] James Jenkins: And we think it is going to have to be some kind of partnership between the federal government to secure some kind of financing tool and then to bring that private capital in. And so we have a number of partners that's expanding in the finance sector, in government, to really look at what a solution like that looks like.
[36:35] James Jenkins: Indigenous housing, being a federal responsibility with the federal government having a large role in it, is certainly unusual and comes with some very unique challenges that make change at that scale difficult, but it's also an opportunity. And it does put the federal government in a position where it could lead a process like that and have some very large impact. So we want to make sure there is the existing community capacity for community members to know what meaningful change looks like at the local level, what the challenges and opportunities are that can contribute to that process. So that's the idea behind the Project Accelerator, but also design at the national level of a program that can lead to new builds, new sustainable builds, and retrofits on a major scale.
[37:21] James Jenkins: And there are interesting examples. I was in the US earlier this year at a clean energy conference and was surprised to learn that there were very large subsidies for energy efficiency that were available to Indigenous communities up until recently—I would say at a scale tenfold of what we've ever seen in Canada. So those kinds of programs are possible, and I think we need to think outside the box and think about how do we put this into action.
[37:51] James Jenkins: But ultimately, what we point out in those reports is that energy efficiency also leads to other very critical outcomes, including health and social outcomes at the community level. And speaking with communities, politicians from communities, housing tends to be a near number one or number one issue, with housing in need of repair being the core issue. And so ensuring that new housing is built with these sustainability measures in place will lead to houses that stay healthy for longer. And so, you know, it really goes much farther than just energy outcomes and that's why it's so critical.
[38:34] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, it's another example of it it's not an either or question here, it's, you know, do it right in the right way and have a focus on both healthy and affordable housing at the same time as making sure it's energy efficient and you're kind of achieving both of those goals. So that's great.
[38:58] Trevor Freeman: So, the second item you've identified in this section is, you know, a lot of northern and remote communities who rely on diesel for their energy focus, and our listeners may remember about a year ago we had a conversation with Quest Canada on this topic as well. And so, a lot of those communities are among the most affected by climate change and natural disasters, and you address what needs to happen from an early-stage planning and funding perspective to ensure that those communities that are not necessarily connected to a grid aren't left behind in this transition. Can you speak to us a little bit about that?
[39:41] James Jenkins: Absolute. So already the cost of diesel in these remote communities is very high. So it's already an economic and social challenge in the territories and remote areas in the northern provinces. And so it's an area where communities tend to be very engaged and have been since the beginning. So we've been engaged with northern communities since the beginning with 2020 Catalyst.
[40:15] James Jenkins: And I think it has a really—for them, clean energy has this impact on them like on a visceral level. For communities that have been able to implement clean technology and turn off the diesel generator for a while, they've talked about the impact of that silence that they haven't heard in so long, you know, the smell of clean air and that sort of thing. So there's this real passion, but also acknowledgment that, you know, they want to be part of a larger climate solution, they're feeling the impacts. And so there are many initiatives in the north, a number of which we've supported.
[40:53] James Jenkins: But there are many challenges as well in terms of logistics, the value chain. Transportation is a real challenge compared to infrastructure in the south. So because there have been so many projects and we partnered with the federal government through two phases of a program called the Indigenous Off-Diesel Initiative—and that was supported by a number of federal programs and we're just finishing off the second cohort—there is so much that we've learned through a couple dozen communities that have been heavily invested in reducing their diesel reduction.
[41:35] James Jenkins: And we're really at a stage now where we can learn—we can take stock of what we've learned through this process and identify how do we get this to the stage of successful projects. And we've learned a number of things. It's also bringing technology to these places that's robust enough to withstand the challenges and just be at a utility scale, ensuring different technologies can work well with each other.
[42:04] James Jenkins: But there's a real need to continue that growth, especially when there's been so much investment and so many communities are so close, with a few success stories and so much pride that comes with this. But ultimately, if they are left behind, the cost for them to power their communities with diesel is not going to become less of a challenge over time. It's only going to become more problematic. And so it's a real priority, and something that, you know, we need to keep staying loud about as well because these are where some of our real energy leaders are living and coming from when it comes to clean energy and ensuring that their priorities have a seat at the table.
[42:52] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, you mention success stories, James, and as we kind of wrap up our conversation here, I want to touch on that a little bit. So you talk about looking at this in perspective of the global stage, and one of your policy recommendations discusses Canada Global Indigenous Cooperation. And you outline that there are more examples of successful Indigenous-led energy projects in Canada than anywhere else in the world. How is your organization, Indigenous Clean Energy, sharing this expertise internationally, and what can the rest of the world learn about what's happening here in Canada?
[43:32] James Jenkins: So we started to learn just how far ahead Canada is in this area through participation in forums like the United Nations Permanent Forum on Indigenous Issues, and we participated in a pre-conference with 88 global Indigenous delegates. And many of them were surprised to learn of these equity projects and opportunities that exist in Canada. For us, it can still be very frustrating, so it is good to put that in perspective in terms of—from many other jurisdictions, they're still at the beginning stages.
[44:06] James Jenkins: But we do have some programs in place, and for several years we've been supporting a sister organization in Australia called First Nations Clean Energy Network using a train-the-trainer model. So we've been active in Australia every year. We've been active in New Zealand as well. And we have some programming in South America in Ecuador and Colombia. And over the last year, we finished a program where we engaged with all of the provinces within Colombia with delegates from communities to assist in developing clean energy plans for their communities that they could bring to the government and and discuss a partnership framework so that they could start to reduce their reliance on diesel and other other carbon fuels.
[44:59] James Jenkins: And we supported those meetings with the government as well and supported delegates from these countries to also visit communities and see success stories in Canada. And the US is another area where there have been some really positive success stories over the last few years, and there were a number of energy programs that particularly rural and remote communities benefited from, Alaska having probably a slight majority and then others in the northern part of the Lower 48. I think they're going to start to struggle because those programs are sunsetting now, I think most of them have recently sunsetted. And so I think it should be a wake-up call to our federal government that there has been this investment in the form of grants from the federal government. If we don't have some kind of programming in place, we will start to see that progress recede.
[45:57] James Jenkins: But just in general, there's a lot that we can share with other jurisdictions globally, everything from what a good partnership looks like, you know, what are the learnings for meaningful participation. But we do have some examples that are very unique, I think, in almost every jurisdiction—Indigenous equity in transmission lines is is really unheard of, so so we should, you know, acknowledge that there are some things that we're doing well and um sharing that and learning what other communities are going through in other jurisdictions. It also really helps us in our strategy.
[46:40] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, I mean we started this conversation with you describing what your organization does, and something that struck me is it's a combination of supporting projects and project models and helping things get up and running off the ground, providing education, and focusing on advocacy. And I imagine that, you know, even within Canada but also looking at some of the partners you've just mentioned around the world, the focus on, you know, each one of those individual aspects will vary depending on what the biggest need is in that jurisdiction at that time as things change, as funding programs change. So I imagine, you know, advocacy becomes more and more important as you see funding programs change or even just project structure change. Is that kind of fair to say?
[47:28] James Jenkins: Definitely. And our model is very community-driven with with community-tailored solutions and with education and capacity building at the community level being our our primary focus, which does set us apart from other organizations to some extent, but does reflect that that um every every solution is going to be different, and really bringing up that capacity at the community level is the most effective way to do it. And for these kinds of projects, there isn't one solution that fits everybody.
[48:02] Trevor Freeman: Is there, to kind of wrap it up here, is there, you know, one piece of advice that you'd give to—I know this is a bit of a big loaded question, it's hard to boil it all down to one piece of advice—but is there something that you would kind of leave with let's say a utility or a developer who wants to build a successful and mutually beneficial partnership with Indigenous communities? What's that kind of one piece of advice you'd leave with them?
[48:30] James Jenkins: Um, the one piece of advice, and sometimes I am asked that question, and I know there are developers outside of Canada that are starting to look at our market as things change globally. And what I would share, first of all, meeting with the communities is incredibly important. Community leadership, finding out what their process is for engagement and then establishing that relationship is hugely important. And um I think the advice usually stops there. I think many utilities and developers have heard that.
[49:07] James Jenkins: But what I would suggest based on my own experience is that engagement occurs from the very top of the organization, from the utility and the developer. And that if the C-suite isn't meeting with the Indigenous partner themselves, they should be fully aware and engaged in what's happening. And that's usually the recipe for success. And you know, for these opportunities, many communities have a history where trust is something that does need to be cultivated, and that would be my main suggestion. I think it's where really successful partnerships have their strength, is there's that level of engagement from the entire vertical organization of the non-Indigenous partner. And so when there is an issue, political leadership from the community, they know who to call and vice versa, and it doesn't lead to larger misunderstandings. And it can lead to some of the more innovative projects we've seen like Oneida Storage, and there are many other examples of that where the developer and the community, after a successful project, they sit down together and they say, "What's next?" And they want to build on what they've developed together.
[50:37] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, I guess that's an indication of there actually being a relationship, trust built, rather than just kind of boxes checked and a process being followed. But if there's that actual trust built, it is more of a conversation that what next question can come up and there's sort of that mutual learning. So that's great. Thank you for that. So James, we always end our interviews with the same series of questions to our guests. So I'm going to dive right in here. What's a book that you've read that you think everybody should read?
[51:11] James Jenkins: These are the top uh these are probably going to be the tougher questions for me, but um so I recently read a book by Cal Flyn, a UK author from Scotland, and it's called Islands of Abandonment. And the subtitle is Nature Rebounding in the Post-Human Landscape. And what she does is, in an investigative journalist style, goes to places where there hasn't been human presence for 50 or more years. Some of them are no man's land in war zones, some of them are cities facing urban decay, some of them are environmental catastrophe sites like Chernobyl, but then finding that nature has rebounded and that there is remarkable biodiversity in some of these places.
[51:59] James Jenkins: So the message I don't want to take away from that is that if you get rid of humans everything will be perfect, because humans have had an impact on the landscape everywhere for much longer than we can comprehend. And in some cases, negative impacts to the landscape are because humans aren't doing what they were doing for a long time. So human intervention has a role and always will, but I think it's important to tell more stories that aren't a story of loss when we get to that point.
[52:36] James Jenkins: And for Indigenous communities, many of us have been going through a process of healing, and many of us are still in that process. But as we start to heal and and ask ourselves what's next, that's when we start to think about regeneration, so regenerative energy, revitalization of our culture and and that's what's next and acknowledging that practices that have been lost are near lost can be revitalized in a way that that is uh is incredibly meaningful. And so I was happy to see that story in a widely publicized book because the major story in conservation, but also climate and other areas, has been one of loss. And so, with all of this loss, and and in some cases, you know, a bedrock of tragedy and historical tragedy, where is the, you know, where is the good news story? And I think having these stories about how nature can regenerate is important. It's important to tell that story.
[53:50] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, that's fantastic. I appreciate that explanation, and these aren't supposed to be my questions to answer, but I do want to quickly mention a book called What If We Get It Right?—and I can't remember the author off the top of my head, but it really is a series of essays and poems and an exploration of like, what if we do the right things and we can address climate change? And I found it very helpful to kind of be able to imagine, yeah, this is what happens if we do the right thing, if we can address some of these challenges. So, along the same vein as what you mentioned. So, the next question is kind of the same, but what's a movie or a show that you've watched that you think everyone should take a look at?
[54:36] James Jenkins: Uh, that that's a really tough one. I do like movies and shows. Um, I recently started watching two British series, um and uh they seem to be very into murder mysteries in the UK, which uh isn't something, you know, normally my favorite, but they do it really well. So I I really liked um Shetland, which is a series that takes place in remote islands in Northern Scotland.
[55:06] James Jenkins: In some ways, I think even the setting that it's trying to tell, it resonates with our work in some ways and even the experience of living in an Indigenous community in a less remote location. So I enjoyed that, and then that led to um Sherlock, the the newer one starring Benedict Cumberbatch, which I thought was a very intelligent um show with a, you know, a compelling uh character with sort of superhero, but but somewhat comic book style realistic attributes, but also failings. Um, so I find I enjoy shows that are drawing from literature and putting them into today's terms and not worrying too much about um, you know, what's realistic and what's not, but really trying to—what would we how would this be written today? So I enjoyed that as well.
[55:58] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, I like that. Um, if somebody offered you a free round trip anywhere in the world, where would you go?
[56:05] James Jenkins: So, Air Canada used to have contests for that, and we used to say Nunavut because it would get the most bang for your buck. You know, these are $4,000–$5,000 tickets, which speaks to the challenges that those communities face when it comes to decarbonizing the north. Um, for me, I mentioned I spent much of my childhood in Northern Arizona. I think at this time I'd probably use it for that, you know, I hope to visit again soon.
[56:39] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, fantastic. Um, James, who is someone that you admire?
[56:44] James Jenkins: Um, I've been grateful for wonderful mentors in the course of my career. Um, I'm really grateful that the founder of ICE, Chris Henderson, has dedicated himself to be a mentor for me and has has really he's committed to that um and I've learned a great deal from him.
[57:04] James Jenkins: Working at Walpole Island, there were a number of chiefs that I worked closely with and have been thinking about one, um Charles Samson, who's passed away, and he really came into his own once he was chief. He had run for a long time, over 10 years, and um really learned a lot from him and his perspective. But then, uh other chiefs, Burton Kewayosh and Dan Miskokomon really really supported me and helped um helped develop my uh the breath of experience that I draw from. And today, um the current chief, Leela Thomas, is really showing some really great leadership, and I think it's a real breakthrough in our region that most of the chiefs in Southwestern Ontario are female, which was um really more rare in the past. So that's a breakthrough as well.
[57:59] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, that's great. Uh, and final question, what is something about the energy sector or its future that you're particularly excited about?
[58:08] James Jenkins: Um, I think what I'm excited about is that the door is open for Indigenous communities to really change the way that they're engaged with the economy, um for there to be some real opportunities for business development. Um, you know, for many years because I lived in the United States for a while, it felt like the overall economic development capacity of US tribes was far beyond what exists in Canada for a number of reasons. And and one of them is there were a few key industries in the US that the federal government, um it cultivated at different times, gaming being one, uh but it did lead to the infrastructure for US tribes to engage in business all across the country in a way that's still the exception rather than the rule in Canada.
[59:02] James Jenkins: So it is exciting for me to think about there being that shift and that um truly Indigenous-led projects stop becoming one-offs, um but they start to be that real uh, you know, Indigenous leadership becomes embedded in the framework of energy decision-making. Um, the idea of it becoming a career path becomes more solidified. So I think it was a dream at one point that some ambitious leaders had, like thinking of Saugeen and Nawash equity participation in that transmission line, there was no blueprint for that.
[59:39] James Jenkins: Um, but now that there's been a dream and we've seen it come into practice, so um it's exciting to think that we may continue to see that progress, and then in 10 years there there will be some foundational pillars for communities to really meet their own communities' needs on their own terms. Right now it continues to be a challenge in most places. It's uh, you know, what do we prioritize with limited resources? And um yeah, exciting that this could be a pathway to to start thinking more in terms of abundance.
[1:00:19] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, I mean we started this conversation with you describing what your organization does, and something that struck me is it's a it's a combination of supporting projects and project models and helping things get up and running off the ground, providing education, and focusing on advocacy. And I imagine that, you know, even within Canada but also looking at some of the partners you've just mentioned around the world, the focus on, you know, each one of those individual aspects will vary depending on what the biggest need is in that jurisdiction at that time as things change, as funding programs change. So I imagine, you know, advocacy becomes more and more important as you see funding programs change or even just project structure change. Is that kind of fair to say?
[1:01:03] Trevor Freeman: James, thanks so much for your time. I really appreciate you coming on the show and helping us understand the work that Indigenous Clean Energy is doing, some of the great success stories, but also a little bit of the path that's still to be walked in order to get to success. So thanks very much, I appreciate your time.
[1:01:21] James Jenkins: Thank you, Trevor, really enjoyed it. Thanks so much.
[1:01:23] Trevor Freeman: Great. Take care.
[1:01:25] Trevor Freeman: Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the Think Energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps us to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback, comments, or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at [email protected].
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Forget range anxiety. The electric vehicle market is evolving fast. Host Trevor Freeman welcomes back Plug'n Drive CEO Cara Clairman to unpack Canada's new EV policies. They discuss the surge in used EV sales and the truth about public charging stations. Plus, learn how low-cost salt-based batteries could disrupt the global auto industry. Discover what these massive shifts mean for transportation and the future of energy. Listen to the full episode today.
Related links
Plug'n Drive: https://www.plugndrive.ca/
Cara Clairman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cara-clairman-84967318/
thinkenergy episode 71 (EV-olving Transportation): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/ev-olving-transportation/
Geotab: https://www.geotab.com/
Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114
Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en
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Transcript:
[00:00] Trevor Freeman: Welcome to Think Energy, a podcast that dives into the fast-changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators, and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional, and up-and-coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback, or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at [email protected].
Hi everyone and welcome back. So, any discussion about the energy transition or our efforts to reduce emissions to mitigate the impact of climate change or even just the ongoing adoption of what once might have been considered futuristic technology, inevitably will include electric vehicles, or EVs as we're going to refer to them today. Transportation is one of the major interactions with energy, especially fossil fuel-based energy that most of us have. Heating being the other one. For the average Canadian, how they move around, going to work, going to school, shopping, recreation, etc., very often involves getting into a vehicle which up until maybe 10 years ago, would almost 100% for sure have been a fossil fuel burning vehicle with a few very small exceptions. Today, while the majority of vehicles are still internal combustion engines, there is at least a noteworthy percentage of electric vehicles out there. We probably all know someone who owns an EV, or know someone who knows someone who owns an EV. EVs aren't actually all that new. The first EV showed up in the late 1800s, believe it or not, and at that point and into the early 1900s, it really could have gone either way between electric-powered vehicles and internal combustion vehicles. As we know, internal combustion vehicles definitely won out, and the bulk of the 20th century was all about internal combustion vehicles, and still today that's the dominant method of transportation. But, there is some alternate reality out there where EVs just always were the transportation method of choice. Imagine what the world would look like if that was the case here. But alas, that is not the reality we're living in. The more recent modern EV era kind of sputtered a little bit in the mid-1990s, there was a bit of an attempt, it didn't really pan out, but really got going around let's say 2008-2009, and it's been a steady crawl forward ever since. But, if you are listening to this podcast, chances are you already know all this and you've likely either skipped forward or are listening to me on two times the speed just to get through this to the important stuff, which is EV policy. You never knew you were so excited about policy. So, most of us, including governments, inherently know that the move to EVs is a good thing. It's good for the climate, it's good for consumers, they're kind of better vehicles. But, societal changes don't just happen, and they certainly don't happen fast. So, there has been a suite of policy approaches over the past couple of years or many years to help us get there and help us get there a little bit quicker. In the past year, Canada's EV policy has changed quite a bit. Availability mandates are out, and incentives are back in. Tariffs on Chinese-manufactured vehicles are mostly out, so things are definitely changing. And to help us understand these changes and what they mean, and also just to check in on the state of EVs here in 2026, I'm really excited to have Cara Clairman back on the show. Cara is the President and CEO of Plug'n Drive, a non-profit that strives to accelerate the deployment of electric vehicles to maximize their environmental and economic benefits. And they do this by engaging with Canadians to help dispel myths and fears and uncertainties around EVs using approaches like their EV Discovery Centre, mobile EV education trailer, and their EVs Are for Everyone tour. And this is really about bringing the EV to the individual, to the person, letting them test drive it, touch it, feel it, ask questions of experts. Now, Cara has actually been on the show a number of years ago where she talked to my predecessor, Dan, about the back story of Plug'n Drive a little bit. So, if you're interested in the organization, I encourage you to go back and listen to that episode. We're not going to get into too much of that here today. Cara is a fantastic individual. She's got more than 25 years of experience working in the environmental and sustainability fields, including at Ontario Power Generation where she was OPG's environmental lawyer and later in the role of Vice President of Sustainable Development. Cara was the 2017 recipient of the Women in Renewable Energy's Woman of the Year award, and the 2021 winner of the Al Cormier EV Leadership Award from Electric Mobility Canada. And as you will hear, she is a big fan of EVs, and she thinks you should be, too. Cara Clairman, welcome to the show.
[05:01] Cara Clairman: Thank you so much, Trevor. I'm pleased to be here.
[05:03] Trevor Freeman: So, this isn't actually your first time on the show, Cara. It's the first time you and I have spoken on this podcast, but you were on our show with my predecessor, Dan, nearly 5 years ago now, and you talked then about how you took Plug'n Drive from just an idea during your time at OPG, to really a national non-profit that's now celebrating its 15th anniversary. And for our listeners, if you're curious about the back story on Plug'n Drive, definitely dig back in the archives and listen to that episode. But, a lot has changed in 15 years, and a lot has changed even in the 4 and a half years since you were last on Think Energy. EVs have gone from kind of this niche idea you'd maybe see one or two around here and there, to, you know, maybe not quite ubiquitous and they're not everywhere, but it seems like they're going in that direction. They're a lot more commonplace. Everybody knows somebody with an EV, or you see them around most times you're out and about. Um, and they are also a very much talked about cornerstone of our national policy. It's an often-talked-about tool for decarbonization. We're going to dive into some of the specifics throughout our conversation, but just looking at the work that you and Plug'n Drive are doing from your EV Discovery Centre to your EVs Are for Everyone tour, how has your mission shifted? Are you moving from convincing people that EVs are a real thing that worked to helping navigate how to get one, what's the complex web of, you know, incentives, etc. What's the difference in your mission now?
[06:36] Cara Clairman: Well honestly, I feel like it's really uh the same in a lot of ways. The big difference, as you pointed out, is that we don't really have to explain what an EV is or that it's a decent car. You know, there's some sort of what I would call EV 101 that most people already know now. And like you said, most people have known somebody, or they've at least heard of it. But I would say there's still a high percentage of Canadians that have never ridden or driven one. Uh, and so that's an experience that we find is really the key, like getting the butts in the seats is really the key to helping people get over the hump. And uh, that's sort of the experience that we focus on. We really try to pair a test drive with every event that we do and encourage people to drive so that they can see the benefits go far beyond just the savings and the environmental benefits, that they're just really super fun cars to drive, and if you're a person that likes a quiet, peppy drive, this is the car for you.
[07:51] Trevor Freeman: Yeah. Are people coming to your events knowing, "I'm going down the EV path, I'm going to buy one, I need to check this out," or they're coming in kind of thinking, "What are these people doing here at this event or in this parking lot?" Like what draws people to your events?
[08:05] Cara Clairman: More more of the former and less of the latter as time goes on, but it depends on the event we're at. So, if it's just they've made an appointment to come see us, which often is the case, we have an appointment system, uh, then they know a little bit, and they're thinking about it, and they want to try it. Uh, if we're just at a festival or fair, which we do, you know, we just are at some event, and they didn't come specifically to see us, uh, then we still meet a lot of people who are like, "What is this?" you know, uh, and so they're earlier in their journey. But what we find is that they need the awareness building, and then they might, you know, make the move a few years down the road, so it still helps them. It's just they're at a different step.
[08:50] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, for sure. No, that makes sense. Okay, so what I really want to dive into here today with you is kind of the shifting landscape, or maybe it's already a shifted landscape, um, regarding EV policy, some of the shifts that we've seen even in the last year or two. Um, so recently, you know, we're here in Canada, the federal government repealed the EV availability standard. So, this was the standard that said we want 100% of cars sold in Canada to be zero-emission by the year 2035.
[09:27] Cara Clairman: Right.
[09:28] Trevor Freeman: And we're moving towards more of an incentive-based strategy. So, a demand-side push rather than an incentive uh sorry, a supply-side push. Does this transition make sense for the average Canadian? Does it risk slowing down the momentum we've built? Kind of where do you stand on on this shift in our approach to EVs?
[09:49] Cara Clairman: Right. To be honest, I was a bit disappointed that they repealed what we call a ZEV mandate or ZEV requirement. We were hoping instead of sort of throwing the baby out with the bath water, they would just make the ZEV requirement maybe less onerous and extend the time or something like that, because the benefit of a ZEV mandate um is that it does require dealers to have the vehicles on the lots. And so it actually increases choice, it increases availability, and that's why you hear some people calling it a ZEV availability standard. Trying to explain it to Canadians because it got a bit garbled in the news where it was like, "We're not going to be able to choose a gas car. You're going to be required to buy an EV." Well, that was way down the road. And uh, what it really did in the early years was make sure dealers would have some. And uh, so that's unfortunate, but, you know, got to move on. So, uh, now we're we brought back uh the Feds brought back the rebate, and sales shot up. So, that's good news. And, you know, hopefully, the dealer networks will make the cars available uh in Ontario. The big challenge is that there's still a ZEV availability standard or ZEV mandate in Quebec and British Columbia, which means they get the cars first. And, you know, you do hear, "Oh, this thing doesn't work. This thing is no good." Well, then why do they get the cars and we don't? You know, so it does work. And so, unfortunately, like if you happen to be listening from Quebec or BC, you'll get more choices than we will here in Ontario, and I I, you know, I hope that that, you know, with the demand-side push that, you know, there'll be more showing up.
[11:51] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, and we've been through periods where even if you wanted to get uh an EV, even if you wanted if you kind of could afford it, you'd decided this is the right option for me budget-wise,
[12:03] Cara Clairman: Yes.
[12:04] Trevor Freeman: you're waiting 10 months, or you can't get the option you want and and so
[12:08] Cara Clairman: Right. You have to be more tolerant of color or features or whatever. We probably will experience some of that. It's very brand dependent. Like, some brands are very available all across Canada, some aren't. Uh, so it's really quite varied. Um, but um the good news is right now um availability's decent, and there's actually lots available on the used market, and maybe we'll talk about that a little bit later to give people comfort around used, because it's really a great option for people to think about.
[12:49] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, absolutely. Let's definitely uh put a pin in that and get back to it. The other big shift I I want to touch on is um or at least it's a big shift that's getting a lot of attention, is the reduction of the previously 100% tariff on Chinese-made EVs down to only a little over 6% now, which effectively opens the doors to Canadians to um have access to these vehicles, so they can be sold in Canada. How do you see this impacting you know, availability and adoption of EVs? Is this going to be a game changer? Are we going to see those kinds of sub-$30,000 EVs on the market? Or is this kind of, you know, one small shift in the market?
[13:31] Cara Clairman: Well, the one thing it has done is created tons of curiosity and interest. You know, everybody wants to know about it, everyone wants to see one. Um, there are EV spies, as you may know, everywhere, like EV enthusiasts who are watch, and, you know, we saw some news report that there were a few Chinese EVs on a lot, you know, north of Toronto somewhere, and people are like, "Oh, what brand is this?" and But unfortunately, we don't know uh really the answer to this question that you're asking yet. Um, we're told that the first Chinese EVs will be here in the last quarter of 2026. Uh, and we don't even know yet if they might be brands we already have, you know. They could be Teslas, they could be Volvos or Polestars. Which we already have.
[14:22] Trevor Freeman: Yeah.
[14:23] Cara Clairman: So, uh, we're hoping we'll see some low cost, you know, BYD or Geelys or whatever else, you know, but we don't know. Yeah. And uh, and it will be exciting to watch, and, you know, we're watching and trying to find out when the first vehicles are going to be available or shown, but nobody knows the answer yet.
[14:48] Trevor Freeman: Are you getting like when you interact with people that are in the EV market, are you getting more questions about that? Are people kind of excited about this? Yeah, okay. That's good.
[14:56] Cara Clairman: Yes. And it's a mixed bag. You know, some people are very wary about it. Um, and what I try to say is look, we already have you know, these phones. You know, so I'm not worried about the whole security and that someone's going to be watching you know, that part of it I really think is a bit of a red herring. We've already gone there, you know, so so and people's information is out there. You know, I mean, so that's not a big concern to me. Um, I think uh the quality we don't have to worry about. Uh, these cars are widely available in Europe, in uh Mexico, and in South America, and they're good.
[15:47] Trevor Freeman: Yeah.
[15:48] Cara Clairman: So, we don't have to worry about that. It's just going to be Canadians, you know, be willing to give them a try, and we'll see. Most people say that they would, so we'll see.
[15:59] Trevor Freeman: And I guess the, you know, it's either you're trying that car or hopefully the presence of these cars, hopefully a little bit cheaper is also influencing what other manufacturers are doing and realizing, "I've got to compete in that marketplace."
[16:11] Cara Clairman: Right, exactly, Trevor. Remember, I mean, you might be too young to remember when the Japanese cars first came to Canada in the 80s. And everyone had these exact same concerns. And you know, what it did was it made the American brands improve. And so, you know, I'm hopeful, and just to remember, these are coming in a very low quantity initially. They're not going to change the market in these next couple of years. If, you know, they open up the door more widely, you know, that's a different thing. But for now, it's a really tiny percentage. It's like less than 50,000 cars, and it's something like 3% of the Canadian auto market, so it's tiny.
[17:01] Trevor Freeman: Yeah. Got you. So, the the new uh or the the renewed incentive that the federal government's brought in Electric Vehicle Affordability Program, um which is providing an incentive for electric vehicles or zero-emission vehicles, um there's a strict $50,000 price cap for any imports, meaning some of those higher-end EVs that are made elsewhere won't qualify for this. Is is $50,000 the right price point? I look at just the price of vehicles in general these days, it's definitely trending up, way higher than I would prefer it to be. Is that the right price point given what's available? Is there enough availability under that price point? Um, and you know, does this affect the kind of conversation that you're having with potential buyers?
[17:56] Cara Clairman: Right now, there's not a lot available under that price point. I mean, I think it is encouraging certain brands to bring a version that is below the price point. Uh, and it has increased sales, so there obviously are some that, you know, qualify. Uh, the truth is, gas or electric, it's hard to find vehicles under that price point. Um, so yeah, would I have liked it to have been a little more generous? Sure. Uh, but it is helping, and I do see some automakers shifting prices. I mean, I don't know if you saw that Tesla now has brought out a car that fits just under there. Mhm. So it does do that, and uh it does just encourage people to look. And then maybe they'll buy a used EV. Yeah. You know, so it does sort of open the door, it encourages people to have a conversation, to look around, uh it sparks interest, which is a good thing.
[19:04] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, and I mean, Ford is looking at how do we come out with a $30,000 truck, and that would qualify for this.
[19:11] Cara Clairman: And the Bolt qualifies, the new Bolt, and it's a great car, and the new Leaf, uh, you know, is coming under there. So, there are good cars under there. I mean, Canadians do love their trucks and SUVs, and unfortunately, those do not make it.
[19:30] Trevor Freeman: I know. Yeah, you're totally right. Um, so obviously Canadian manufactured EVs are exempt from that price cap.
[19:38] Cara Clairman: Yes.
[19:39] Trevor Freeman: Are you seeing a game of kind of buy local versus get an incentive? Um, you know, how does this come into play? Is that part of the conversation?
[19:51] Cara Clairman: Well, right now, buying local is just about impossible. Yeah. I mean, there's there's literally two vehicles that are made partially in Canada, and, you know, we've heard a bunch of announcements recently that Canadian manufacturing of EVs has either been postponed or gone off the rails altogether, which is really unfortunate, cuz I was really looking forward to being able to buy a Canadian-made EV. Uh, you know, these plans change, they could come back, you don't know. Uh, but right now, it doesn't look that easy to buy a Canadian-made EV. I mean, there's basically the Pacifica and the Dodge Dart. Mhm. You know, that's it uh right now. Uh, and you know, Toyota's going to make some RAV4s, which will be great. Um, you know, Honda just announced they're not going ahead with their plans, um so it's really unfortunate. The thing that I try to remind people is manufacturing is one thing, and EV adoption in a way is completely separate from that, Yeah. because we manufacture cars primarily for the US market. I mean, Canada's almost an afterthought. And so, that's the reason this is happening, it's because of tariffs, it's because of bu- you know, America First policies, it's because of, you know, US politics. And uh, it's really unfortunate for the Canadian auto industry, but it doesn't mean EV adoption won't continue to really grow. It just means we're going to be buying cars that aren't made here.
[21:39] Trevor Freeman: Yeah. Well, and that's kind of the next place I want to go with this conversation is our own manufacturing industry, as you've just pointed out, is so tied in with the United States um manufacturing industry and Mexico. That's actually where I grew up in Windsor. My family is an auto family. My first job was kind of in the auto industry. Um, and the intricacies and and interties between those two industries are very, very tight. But, we're at this stage where we seem to be, not seem to be, we definitely are, moving in different directions policy-wise, especially when it comes to EV policy and trade policy in general. Um, that creates challenges and friction. We're trying to build maybe more of a manufacturing base here. The US is trying to pull that back. And that pull is strong. Yeah. It is, yeah.
[22:34] Cara Clairman: I mean, they have the population. I mean, we can't fight that very well, and, you know, we'll time will tell. I mean, Trump won't be there forever, but a lot of the damage will have been done. And I know there's a lot of folks really working hard on maintaining the automaker footprint we have here. It's a huge challenge.
[22:54] Trevor Freeman: Mhm. Yeah, is there a way to kind of thread that needle for pushing EV adoption? You know, we're kind of falling behind adoption rates that we've seen elsewhere, Europe, Asia, etc. Pushing that while still bolstering our own manufacturing base, trying to maintain these ties with our largest trading partner? Like how how do you I have to admit I'm not an expert on the industrial side, like on the commercial and manufacturing side of things, but from people that are, what I hear is, you know, we may have to let the Chinese, Indian, uh, Vietnamese uh, manufacturers come in and manufacture here in Canada instead of the brands we're used to being manufactured here. And that's something that could happen. That's something that would sort of replace I mean, the ones that are a real problem are the American-made the American brands, you know. They're really feeling the pull to manufacture in the US. Uh, so time will tell. Uh, you know, we may just be making different cars than we were making before. I hope we'll still be making them.
[24:14] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, well and there's I mean, you can kind of see the government trying to do exactly what you said, entice companies to do some part of manufacturing here. They've got this tradeable import credit system where, "Hey, if you invest in manufacturing in our country, you get credits to sort of buy your way through our import market. It can offset some of the tariffs that might be in place." You know, that's a mechanism to do exactly what you're saying we might see.
[24:41] Cara Clairman: Right. And some of those brands don't mind sending their vehicles anywhere from Canada. You know, they're not as focused on the fact that Canada has what's considered quite a small market, um given our population size. Uh, and I think in the future, well maybe the tariffs are going to change if the American if American politics changes. Yeah. You know, so I do think that's possible, um like I said, some of the damage will have been done if you know, if GM moves production to Detroit or wherever else, you know, they're not going to move back. But um you know, time will tell. I mean, I do think we'll have some manufacturing still in Canada and hopefully more than what it looks like right now.
[25:31] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, I mean it'll be interesting to see. As you say, these policies may not be in place forever, but some of the reaction that is going to happen now in terms of do I move my manufacturing base back to the US, that will persist, and you're not going to make two moves, you're going to kind of make a one time tough one.
[25:46] Cara Clairman: No, and especially if it creates some job uh you know, a bunch of jobs in the US, the next US president, even if they're Democrat and they get rid of tariffs and stuff, they're not going to move it back. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
[25:57] Trevor Freeman: Okay, so um let's let's kind of zoom back in a little bit here. So, Plug'n Drive, um you've been doing these uh EVs Are for Everyone tours, um kind of as we talked about earlier, giving people access that might not otherwise have access to to understand, try out EVs. And you've been doing this kind of across the board, including in smaller communities. Is there something that you hear differently in a small town, a rural area, compared to a big urban center, you know, Toronto, Ottawa, etc. Oh definitely.
[26:30] Cara Clairman: Well, the big thing is they don't have access, as you said. So in a smaller community, they might only have a handful of dealers, and those dealers may or may not carry EVs. And so they really don't get a chance to try them, and trying, as I mentioned at the off the top, is the key to buying. Yeah. And uh, whatever preconceived notion you might have had, you know, it kind of melts away once you get behind the wheel, even just the reality of like, "Oh, this is a great car." You know? And and so, whatever that experience, or whatever they thought it might be, it's it's gone. And uh, and so, it's a really important uh part of the process. And so, that's the main thing in a smaller community, they don't have that. Now, the other thing that we noticed is how far people drive. Now, people do drive farther in a smaller community, but what has surprised us is they don't drive as far as they think. Hmm, interesting. Yeah. And most of us actually don't drive as far as we think. Yeah. We might sit in traffic and stuff, even like us, you know, in big cities. Um, but we don't actually go that many kilometers, or not as many as we think. Um, and they don't either. And, you know, what they do is they, you know, into town, back and forth, for soccer, you know, same as anyone. Yeah. You know, so for for for sports or whatever for their kids, and then shopping or see Grandma or whatever. Um, and then once in a while, a long trip. And that is a thing that weighs heavily on Canadian minds is the road trip. Yeah. We are really obsessed with the road trip, and it's a one-off trip. And this is the thing we can't seem to shake loose, which is, you know, "What am I going to do if I need to drive to" and you fill in the X. Yeah. It could be across Canada, which hardly anyone does, or it could be like my trip to Algonquin, or my trip to Maine, or, you know, not right now, trip to uh, PEI let's say. Um, whatever. It's like, that one-off trip is so important to people, and we try to say, "Okay, yeah, that's more challenging in an EV. It can totally be done now, but it's still harder, and we sort of say try to think about your car for the 98-99%, not the 1% of trips." I might have even said this 5 years ago. Like, it's still a thing that we can't seem to, you know, stop people from fixating on, and we sort of say, "You know, with all the money you're going to save, you can" and we should talk about the savings because people do not understand that. Uh, all the money you're going to save, you can rent a car, or do something else, or what I do, once every 2 years, is swap with my brother-in-law who's got a minivan. Mhm. You know, and you can solve that problem for a one-time trip. Don't make that that's a bad way to choose a car anyway, gas or electric. Yeah. You know, because you're going to spend a lot more on gas hauling around a bigger, heavier car. Uh, so, even if you're not ready, it's a bad idea.
[30:04] Trevor Freeman: So, in terms of So, availability of charging is one of them, and there's that road trip idea for sure. There's also, I mean, we hear, and me working at the utility, as people are trying to put chargers in, we hear this a lot. People's preferred charging location is at home. We know that, that's where people want to charge, they want to plug in at home. Yes. Not everybody has a driveway or a garage, not everybody can install a charger at home. So, one of the things the federal government has been doing over the last little while is trying to increase access to public charging. Yes. Where are we at with our sort of public charging infrastructure? Is the network kind of built out to handle those road trips, or to handle that kind of, you know, someone who lives in a multi-res building, a condo, an apartment that can't charge at home? Where are we on that front?
[31:18] Cara Clairman: Okay. I would say, as a very early adopter, you know, I had my first EV in 2011, so, you know, from my perspective, the network's amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There was one supercharger, or like, fast, I mean, it was a slow fast charger, uh, in all of Ontario at that time. I mean, so now, there's more than 40,000 chargers across Canada. Uh, there's, you know, about a quarter of those are fast chargers at highway stops and convenient places. If you live in urban suburban Canada, and you commute, it's basically solved. Like, it's so good. I'm- and then, I'm sure someone will listen and say, "Well, for me, it's not." Okay. There- there's still gaps. Is it perfect? No. But it's really quite good, and you just have to go to PlugShare or ChargeHub and take a look, and you'll be shocked at how many chargers there are. I mean, there are a lot.
[32:27] Trevor Freeman: For our listeners, PlugShare and ChargeHub are both kinds of resources that map out all the chargers, the status, is it broken, is it fixed, here's what it costs, it's really great resources.
[32:39] Cara Clairman: Yes, everything. All the information you need. And all EV drivers will have that app on their phone. Mhm. Uh, then where it is challenging, you know, we got to acknowledge, even like an EV enthusiast like me, got to acknowledge, it's not perfect. Where the big challenges still exist is multi-unit residential, still challenging, and rural remote. Mhm. Still challenging. So, not so much for people who live rural remote, who want to, let's say, drive to town or drive to somewhere, to the city. That's okay. It's if you want to take a really long trip into rural, let's say, from Ottawa to Thunder Bay or Toronto to, you know, Winnipeg. That's still a challenging drive. It's doable, but it's hard. Um, if you're a commuter, which, you know, most of us are, you know, and you can charge at home, I mean, it's done. It's great. I mean, for someone like me, it's fantastic. I mean, I drive about 80 kilometers uh every week, and it's a snap, you know. No problem. Most of the cars have 400-500 kilometers range. I don't even think about it, even on like a minus 30 day. Where where I do think there's the most work that needs to be done is on the MURBs, multi unit residential. And some of the funding that the Feds have put forward for chargers is going into multi-unit, which is great. Mhm. Uh, condos will get done. Condos are getting done. Uh, where it's hard is apartment buildings. I mean, they're so there you need to search for public charging near you. Mhm. And if you're in Quebec, you're probably going to find it pretty easily, BC, it's getting better. Uh, Ontario is still a bit rough, and the Maritimes and the Prairies, super rough.
[34:39] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, we do, Hydro Ottawa actually was a recipient of federal funding to install public chargers. We did a lot of public chargers uh public access chargers in multi-unit residential, you know. It's so important, as you said. Everyone wants to charge at home. Exactly, yeah. And, it's the cheapest, it's and we haven't talked about super low night time prices, and being able to plug in overnight and, you know, right now with high gas prices, people are looking into it. It makes a difference. Well, let's talk about the price then, that's kind of the next barrier, is "Ah, it's too expensive, I can't get into it." Um, tell us about the economics around owning an EV.
[35:16] Cara Clairman: So, this is a challenge because people see the higher stick- sticker price, and they say, "Oh, EVs are too expensive." Well, they aren't doing the math, and we are trying to, you try to help, we're trying to help. There's other groups trying to help. We have a great calculator on our website to show the total cost of ownership, and to explain that yes, you pay a little bit more upfront, and the $5,000 rebate if you can get it drops that down to about $5K on average. 5k extra, that's the premium, yeah. 5k extra. Yep. Now, you would make that back in 2 to 3 years easily depending on how much you drive, because electricity is like 1/5 the price of gas, and even maybe more like 1/6 now that gas prices have gone up. Mhm. So, if you're paying $2 a liter, um which I hear, is what, you know, We're not far off, yeah. I don't know, I don't buy gas. Yeah. But, uh, $2 a liter, I'm paying the equivalent of, on time of use, of uh, 28¢, and now on ultra-low, 14¢. Um, I mean, a l- per liter equivalent. For the same driving range, yeah. For the same driving. And so, can you imagine that I can fully charge a 500-kilometer car for like 2 bucks overnight. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you just can't believe how cheap it is. And if and so if we can get people to sort of understand the pay now to save later, which is hard for people. Yep. And if they lease, it's easier to understand because then they're not sort of shoveling out that money upfront necessarily. Mhm. It's a winner, you know, economically, you know, leaving aside the environmental and health benefits. Mhm. Uh, and so, we really try to help We have a great tool on our website that shows all this called Find Your EV Match, and you can compare any of your own, like all the historic gas cars, like any car that you own is in there. So, let's say you want to compare a 19 99 or a 2015 Civic to a Leaf or a Bolt, or whatever car you're thinking of, uh, you can do the comparison, and it will show you the savings month by month. Mhm. And then it will show you when your kind of hit that crossover and you're in the money. Yeah. And then you basically feel like you're earning money.
[37:51] Trevor Freeman: Yeah. I will say, as also, as an EV driver, when I I have two vehicles, one's still a gas car and one's uh an EV, when I have to fill up the gas car, I'm I'm always I compare it to my EV that I don't have to fill up, it's it's night and day when it comes to the cost. It's absolutely night and day.
[38:09] Cara Clairman: I mean, it's and also the maintenance. So, there's just no maintenance. I mean, obviously there's a little tiny bit. There's brakes, eventually, even that gets delayed because of the generative braking, Longer, yeah. and, you know, windshield wipers and tires, which you do anyway. I mean, I've now had a Leaf, a Bolt, a Model 3, and an Ioniq 5. Okay, and I have literally never had to do any maintenance except brakes, Mhm on any of them. Yeah, that's amazing. And, they've all been the first gen, right? Like my Leaf was the very first gen Leaf, my Bolt was a first gen Bolt 2017, and uh the Ioniq I think was the second year, which is what I drive now. Yeah. And uh, just nothing. And so, it just to me like, I'm almost like, "I can't believe everybody's not doing it! It's so cheap." Now, I understand some people, if you drive 250 kilometers each way and you, you know, I get it. It's not so simple for everyone. You live in a MURB, but if you live in a single-family home, it's a slam dunk.
[39:27] Trevor Freeman: Yeah. So, we've kind of covered charging availability, we've talked about the cost implications. There's a battery performance question of is this battery going to be around for 10 years, the life of the car?
[39:39] Cara Clairman: Yes. Especially when used, people are worried about it.
[39:41] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, is the range going to get me there, and that kind of ties into charging? Where are we at? Have we seen that technology change in the 15 years that you've been in this space? Where are we at with that?
[39:51] Cara Clairman: Yeah. In the early years, I always wanted to be honest, right, because it doesn't help to be overly glowing, and then, you know, people are disappointed, you got to be forthright with people where there are pluses and where there are the minuses. In the early years, of course, the range was really low, and so that was a challenge for people who had to drive long distances. Now the range of the EV is great, that's not an issue for most people anymore. Battery life, people used to say, "Well, how long will the battery last?" And the truthful answer 15 years ago was we don't know, Mhm because there was no information. I mean, Yeah, we hadn't done it. We thought we knew because the Prius had a similar type of battery, as a hybrid, and we thought it should be similar, and those are doing well. Well, now we have 15 years of information, and the batteries are lasting so well. Now, you hear in the news the odd story about a battery crapping out, and it really is anecdotal, and so you can't pay attention to it. Um, it's a lemon situation, right, and that's going to happen, right, there are going to be lemons, just like in a gas car.
[41:03] Trevor Freeman: Exactly, yeah. You have to get your engine replaced randomly if you have a lemon, it happens.
[41:07] Cara Clairman: Yes, it happens. But the data will tell you, and Geotab has some really good data on their website where they studied how long are these batteries lasting, like 15 years later, and it looks like, for the most part, they're going to outlast the body of the car. Like, 20 years, no problem. So, this idea that you would have to replace a battery is really unrealistic, like, most of us will never have to do that. And no one keeps their car for 20 years, or very few people keep their car for 20 years. No, it's a 10 year window, and if you're like most Canadians, 7 to 10 years, uh, you're not going to be replacing the battery. That's not going to happen. And most of them, uh, sort of a typical battery loss, battery degradation over time is 1 and a half to 2% a year. Hm. So, you're going to see some declines, so let's say at year 5, you should be down no more than 10%, and uh uh, so when you look at a used vehicle, you can do a test on the battery and see how it's doing, something called a State of Health check on the battery. It's a test that any dealer can do, like any service center can do. And you can be confident that it's fine.
[42:33] Trevor Freeman: Mhm. So, let's say you brought up used vehicles a couple times here. Let's talk about that as an option for people wanting to get into the EV space maybe a bit more affordably. Yes. Like is the supply out there? Are there a bunch of these sitting around waiting to be scooped up? Yes. Great, now let's talk about it.
[42:49] Cara Clairman: Yeah, that's a great news story. So, there's there's um a lot of supply, uh, there's, you know, if you think about it, all the vehicles that come off lease or whatever, you know, even there's now 2023s, you know, available, there're there's a lot of availability. And so, you know, you just go on your favorite, you know, auto trader type magazine, and you will see, uh online, there's tons of availability, and uh, you know, what I say to people if they're worried about battery life, they do that State of Health check on the battery. If you're buying it privately, uh, you can ask. Uh, it's only about a hundred bucks, I think it's worth it. Uh, the other thing you could do, if you just can't figure that out or you don't want to figure that out, is just trickle charge the battery overnight and see, you know, what does it say, how many kilometers uh range you have, and compare that to what the manual says it should have. That's sort of a rule of thumb type of test, it's not as good as the actual test, but it'll give you a good idea. So so the, you know, people should not be afraid of a used EV. And uh, also, if you are really concerned, most of them have, you know, the 8 to 10 year warranty on the battery. And so, if you are really concerned, just make sure you're still in in warranty. Yeah. Uh, you know, don't go older than 8 years, and also check, you know, because sometimes there's a kilometer limit and a year limit, so it's like 8 years or 180,000 kilometers, or you know, they're all a bit different, but um check it, and uh that's a great way of sort of if you still have a year or two left on the on the warranty, then you're sort of safe. Yeah. to see like see how it see how it does. And price point wise, these are coming in at like a reasonable for a used vehicle, a reasonable price point. Totally reasonable, you can get an EVs in the 20s, in the well you can get the oldest ones even lower than that, in like, um, apparently my 2017 Bolt, which we still keep and use, we love it, uh, would only be worth like, I don't know, $12 or $15,000. So, they're cheap, and this one got the battery fixed. I always say to people, the Bolt had a recall on the batteries, 2017 to 2019. And most of them got the battery fixed, so, and then the warranty goes back to year 1. Mhm. So, you basically can get a used Bolt that's almost like a new car because it got a new battery put in, and so those are like gems to find, yeah. Uh, so, they're, you know, that's why we're hanging on to ours, it's great. That's great.
[45:41] Trevor Freeman: Okay, Cara, we're getting close to the end of our conversation here. So, uh you know, you've been at this for a while, 15 years of Plug'n Drive, um obviously an EV enthusiast on top of that. What's your general feeling about where we're at right now in 2026? Is it where you thought we would be, maybe looking back a few years ago? Is it, you know, we've got a long road to climb here, where are you? What are you thinking here?
[46:08] Cara Clairman: Well, I do tend to be an optimist, but I was probably a little overly optimistic about how fast the transition would happen, and we have had some bumps in the road. Uh, but I would characterize all the stuff that's happened in the last year or two as bumps in the road to eventually everyone having an EV. I mean, I do think it's inevitable still, and I think most of even the, you know, automakers would say it's inevitable. The cars are better, mhm they last better, they perform better, and even without all the environmental and health benefits, they have a lot of other econ- economic benefits. Uh, so I do think it's inevitable. It has been slower than I expected. Mhm. Uh, but, um, I'm still really optimistic about the future, uh, and I think Canadians are going to embrace EVs maybe sooner than than some folks, and and I think all what's happened with with Trump and also this war and all these things has actually got more people asking questions about EVs than ever before, so he accidentally actually spurred on the interest in EVs, which is funny.
[47:26] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, and I think we've seen that over over the years, these sort of starts and fits, and no doubt there will be another maybe slow down, but I I tend to agree, we're we're angling in that direction, and there's really no pulling back now. I would, so my oldest is 13, and I remember probably 5, 6, maybe 7 years ago, thinking, "You know, wow, by the time uh he's driving, he may never drive an ICE vehicle, because it'll just all be EVs." So, we haven't quite gotten there,
[47:56] Cara Clairman: Yeah, my kids are in their 20s, and they both learned on electric, and they both have never driven a gas car, because we don't have one. Yeah, yeah, that's great. And so I am hopeful, and BC and Quebec have already passed what I would call the tipping point, mhm and so I do think that it's happening, and it's exciting, and it's also a great industry for young people to get into, so um there's lots of lots of pluses.
[48:24] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, it's funny on this show, this comes up a lot, and I think all the things that we talked about from utility space to all the energy transition things, EVs being one of them, distributed energy resources, right like if you're a young person looking of what do I get into, what's the thing that I focus on, my goodness, we've got a whole range of things that are are on the cusp, I think of of really taking off, so EVs being one of them.
[48:48] Cara Clairman: Electricity, energy, there's a lot of exciting stuff happening in decarbonization, and it's a great field for young people.
[48:55] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so we always end our interviews with a series of questions to our guests, Cara, so I'm going to throw a few at you here. Um, what's a book that you've read that you think everybody should read? Ah. Uh, so professional or personal? Well, you can go either direction. I'll even give you two if you want to do one of each.
[49:15] Cara Clairman: Okay. So, professional, uh, I read a book called, I think it's called, We're All in Sales. And it really helped me when I was starting Plug'n Drive. It sort of helps you get over this like, "Ugh, sales." Yeah. Which I think a lot of people have because they don't want to have to ask for money or you know, pitch for money or whatever. And it made you re- It was just helpful in that it talks about how, I mean, we're all in sales in one way or another. I mean, you have to sell yourself, you have to sell your ideas, you have to sell something. Some of us were more direct than others, but it helped me. Mhm. Um, um, and then, for women who are entering the workforce, uh, I read a book called The Feminine Mistake. And it's a play on The Feminine Mystique, which was a huge book in the 60s. Yeah. And, I found it really helpful as a working mom, and have little kids, and it's hard. It's a really hard phase. And that book really really helped me. Um, and then personal, uh, I just read uh a book that I really enjoyed, um, uh, it's actually just been made into a movie with uh, Sally Field, called Remarkably Bright Creatures. It's about an octopus, and it's from the octopus's point of view.
[50:47] Trevor Freeman: Oh, very cool. I just saw a trailer for this movie, actually. Finding it.
[50:50] Cara Clairman: Yeah. So read the book before you watch the show, Okay. because books are always better than the movie, and more in depth and everything. So it's a great book, especially if you love the ocean and mhm sea creatures and octo- pi? Octopuses? are so smart and it was just really adorable. It was a really fun book to read. It's not like it's great, it's written really well, but it's not hard to access, it's not, you know, it's it's great.
[51:21] Trevor Freeman: Yeah. No, that's a good one, that's a good recommendation. Um, so kind of the same question, but um, you know, for a movie or a show, is there something you've watched recently that really has stood out to you that you kind of think everyone should take a look at?
[51:32] Cara Clairman: I went back and watched This Is Spinal Tap, Nice. That's awesome. which I hadn't watched. And my husband had never seen it. Oh, gods. And I was like, "What?" Cuz you know, because of everything that happened with Rob Reiner, we went back and we watched it. Still hilarious. Oh yeah, so good. It really stood the test of time, so funny.
[51:53] Trevor Freeman: I've got This has come up before with other guests, I've got a list of you know, those movies that were so great for me as whatever, a teenager, that I'm waiting for my kids, ridiculous though. I mean, I have to warn you, ridiculous. I'm waiting for my kids to get old enough that I can bring them into this or that one, and that's on the list for sure. So we'll crank it up to 11 here. Um, so if someone offers you a free round trip anywhere in the world, where would you go?
[52:20] Cara Clairman: Oh wow. Uh, I actually just got back from Morocco, and it was so fantastic. Oh, gods. It was so beautiful. Um, but I've never been anywhere in Asia, I'd love to go to Japan. Mhm. I've never been there, and South Korea, because also they're very advanced in terms of technology and stuff, and I there's so many neat things, like autonomous vans and things that they're already using there, and vehicle-to-grid, and all this stuff, and at the base, I'm an electricity nerd, so I I would love to go there.
[52:55] Trevor Freeman: Yeah. Uh, who's someone that you admire?
[52:58] Cara Clairman: Oh my gosh, there's so many people I admire. Um, Louise Arbour. Um, our new, for our listeners, our new Canadian, uh, Governor General, yeah. New GG. That's awesome. She is fantastic. What a role model for women. She became a judge from being a professor. Mhm. Um, she ascended in a way that not very many people have. She worked internationally, she's, and, uh, she's also a really nice person, a really good person. Yeah. And, uh, an accessible person, what I would say is that she's not at all arrogant, she's funny, she's nice to talk to. I had the privilege of working with her when I was a student. Oh, very cool. And, uh, she's just amazing, and I watch her with, she's inspiring.
[53:57] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, that's uh I I agree, I've been reading obviously about her because she's in the news right now, and for our listeners, that's our new uh Governor General, and if you're not from Canada, you can look up what a Governor General does for us here in Canada. Um, very, very exciting. Um, yeah, I agree. Um, last question, Cara. What's something about the energy sector or its future that you're particularly excited about?
[54:21] Cara Clairman: Oh my gosh, well, you know, aside from all the stuff we've just been talking about, Yeah. um, actually, I saw a YouTube video about batteries uh just the other day, a Chinese battery maker. And what they're doing in batteries is really exciting with salt, you know, salt based batteries that are going to be so cheap. Mhm. And they basically have it, like it's not this futuristic thing, it's a salt-based battery that costs like a fraction, and so the cheapest EVs will get made with those, and that's going to be a game changer. Yeah. That's pretty cool.
[55:05] Trevor Freeman: It is exciting to think about. Now that we're really focusing on EVs and letting sort of just that normal technological improvement iterative process happen, Right. how quickly we might see some of these barriers that we just talked about get solved.
[55:19] Cara Clairman: Yeah, they're putting their new technology into drones, into like air taxis and all this stuff, mhm. It's now, it's not sort of this Jetson's futuristic thing, it's like really happening, so that's pretty exciting.
[55:40] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, now the energy transition is here, we say it all the time on this show. It's here. It's here. When people say EVs are the future, I say no, they're right now. Exactly, yeah, exactly. Um, Cara, it's been great chatting with you, thank you so much for making the time this morning. I really appreciate your insight into what's happening.
[55:56] Cara Clairman: Yeah, my pleasure, my pleasure, nice to talk to you too.
[55:58] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, hopefully uh we'll talk again in a few years and be talking about how fast it's moved.
[56:02] Cara Clairman: I hope so.
[56:03] Trevor Freeman: Awesome. Thanks so much. Take care. Okay, you too. Okay, bye.
Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the Think Energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review, it really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback, comments, or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at [email protected].
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Electricity Canada CEO Francis Bradley joins thinkenergy to unpack the 2026 State of the Industry report, Forging Canada's Electricity Future. Why is public trust in utilities peaking in light of extreme weather? Why is a single word in the Fisheries Act halting major hydro projects? They dive into supply chain headaches, bureaucratic red tape, and how treating the power grid like core tax-funded infrastructure can make electricity bills more affordable for consumers.
Related links
Electricity Canada: https://www.electricity.ca/
Francis Bradley on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/francis-bradley-icd-d-ias-a-3617802a/
Electricity Human Resources Canada: https://ehrc.ca/
Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114
Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en
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Transcript:
00:01 Trevor Freeman: Welcome to Think Energy, a podcast that dives into the fast-changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators, and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional, and up-and-coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback, or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at [email protected].
00:27 Trevor Freeman: Hi everyone, and welcome back. Here's something you've heard me say before: the energy transition isn't coming, it's here now. And that's showing up in a lot of different ways—from the significant increase in demand that we're seeing driven by AI data centers and electrification, to the ever-increasing adoption of distributed energy resources by everyday Canadians in their homes and businesses. Even utilities looking to non-wire solutions as a strategy to employ alongside the traditional poles and wires approach to meet this growing demand. That's all happening now.
01:03 Trevor Freeman: And that really underscores the message that the time for talking about how we will eventually build out our grid to handle the energy transition has turned into the time to build and deliver on that talk. But, as with most things, it's never just that easy. This is all happening against the backdrop of an energy industry that is, to say the least, facing some pretty significant turmoil. What sector isn't right now? There's global conflict, there's a need for bold new policy direction, changing technology—these are not insignificant factors.
01:38 Trevor Freeman: And so, to help us understand where we currently are at and where immediate action is necessary, I think it's time we check in with a two-time previous guest on this show: Francis Bradley. Francis is the President and CEO of Electricity Canada, the leading voice for the electricity industry in this country. We've had Francis on the show before in the past and it's great to have him back here today to chat about some of these issues.
02:04 Trevor Freeman: Every year, Electricity Canada releases a State of the Industry report that serves as kind of a pulse check on our sector. You'll hear shortly in my conversation with Francis that there is something to the naming of these reports. In 2023, the message was "Build It". In 2024, they used the title "Getting to Yes". But the 2026 report, which was just released, has a bit of a different title: it's called "Forging Canada's Electricity Future".
02:35 Trevor Freeman: Now, to forge something implies heat, pressure, a lot of hard work. And this report does exactly that. It dives into the regulatory system that we operate in, the gaps in our labor and supply chains, and this new geopolitical reality that's pushing Canada to prioritize our own domestic production. But it's not all warnings. There is a roadmap, so to speak, in the report that specifies 18 recommendations that Electricity Canada proposes be addressed in order to help our industry thrive. As the need to increase our capacity and meet these rising energy demands intensifies, getting projects moving, getting shovels in the ground is absolutely critical. So, it's really great to have Francis here today to chat through that and talk about what's in the report, and I'm sure it'll be a great discussion.
03:26 Trevor Freeman: Francis Bradley, welcome to the show—welcome back to the show.
03:29 Francis Bradley: Oh, delighted to be back. Good to see you.
03:32 Trevor Freeman: So Francis, it's great to have you back on the show. It's always a pleasure to catch up and get, you know, your perspective, your take on what's happening in the world of energy, and particularly the Canadian energy landscape. So, we chatted just under a year ago, and I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that was a pretty tumultuous time in the world of energy, at least here in Canada.
03:52 Trevor Freeman: So, just for context setting for our listeners as a reminder: we had just come out of both a provincial and federal election here in Ontario. Our various levels of governments were responding to actual tariffs and threats of additional tariffs. There was a lot of talk about national energy projects from pipelines to east-west electricity grids. So, with that as the backdrop, how has the last year been for you and Electricity Canada, being kind of the main association representing the electricity industry in Canada? Have we seen some of those big projects move forward? Is it all talk or have things actually happened in the last sort of 10, 12 months?
04:36 Francis Bradley: Yeah, I mean, this is a—this is a really good question and it's a great place to start our conversation. You're right, things have been pretty crazy this past year. But also, from the perspective of energy and electricity, there's also been some pretty significant developments as well, particularly I'd say the people who are responsible for the things that we care about in the federal government.
05:04 Francis Bradley: So we've, you know, we've got a Prime Minister that used to be Vice Chair at Brookfield; we've got a Minister of Energy that used to chair the board of Hydro One; the head of the civil service most recently was the President of Hydro Quebec. So, you know, among all of that massive change, we also saw now a team in Ottawa that actually understands our sector and that gets the challenges that we're talking about.
05:32 Francis Bradley: So, you know, have we seen significant projects moving forward? Well, I mean, part of the challenge, of course, is projects in this sector are very, very long-term. I mean, they take a long time. These are not, you know, kind of shovel-ready projects that are just sitting on the sidelines and immediately you get a go, you can move forward. These are generational investments. But what we have seen, I think, is some real movement by the federal government and a very significant change in terms of their approach.
06:05 Francis Bradley: Bill C-5, for example—the first piece of legislation that we saw moving through—that sent a real signal that the government was serious, as serious as you can be in a minority government situation. Short of changing a large number of laws, they essentially do a carve-out for those projects of national interest—or some people call them "PONIs," Projects of National Interest. So we saw addressing, trying to move that small set of projects more quickly through the process. We saw the establishment of the Major Projects Office as a kind of a concierge for these major projects. We saw the MOU with the province of Alberta also, I think, a sign that there is a real desire to see major projects move forward.
07:01 Francis Bradley: But the challenge here—and this is what I raised when I appeared before the parliamentary committee reviewing Bill C-5—is that's all well and good if you happen to be one of those PONIs. If you happen to be the proponent for one of these projects of national interest, that's terrific; you're able to move through this project more quickly. But you know, the reality is the vast majority of the projects that are going to make a difference for the electricity sector and ultimately for Canadian customers may not rise to that level of a Project of National Interest. And so, all of the concerns that we had previous to Bill C-5 really remain for the vast majority of projects that we're going to be facing.
07:44 Francis Bradley: So, yeah, have we seen movement? Yeah, I think we've seen pretty significant movement. We've seen all of the right signals, but as I said, the government can only go so far as a minority government. Now, that's today when we're recording this, but by the time this plays, we may not be in a minority government situation anymore. But that is the reality; it is difficult for the government to get legislation through as a minority, and I'm certainly pleased that one of the first priorities was addressing "how do we get projects built?" because that's something that we've been talking about for a long time.
08:24 Trevor Freeman: And do you see—you know, obviously Canada exists within the broader backdrop of global energy politics or the energy kind of situation? There's a lot going on there right now, of course, you know, conflict in energy-producing countries. Do you see us continuing to move forward on these? So, the last year was kind of a foundation setting, figuring out how to get major projects done, and now we're moving into hopefully implementation, or have we been knocked off course? Do you see something changing significantly in Canadian energy policy and politics as a result of what's happening globally?
09:03 Francis Bradley: Yeah, you know, again, a really good question, Trevor. Because certainly the short-term challenges that we've seen with now the war in the Middle East and the roiling of markets and the significant increase, I think if anything, it's going to prove to be an even greater impetus for us. I don't think it's going to slow us; it's probably going to get us to speed up. I think it certainly will with respect to our colleagues that are in the oil and gas space, but also for electricity.
09:37 Francis Bradley: I think it's going to increase the desire that people will have to see greater energy sovereignty in Canada. And so, a lot of the issues that we've been talking about with respect to building out, meeting the future demand, and getting things built were not directly addressing Canadian sovereignty, but they indirectly address Canadian sovereignty. And over the last year with the challenges with the Trump administration, suddenly questions around Canadian sovereignty are getting more traction. So yeah, I think what's happening in the world today—certainly the most recent past—is going to prove to be, I think, even more impetus for us to want to move and move expeditiously in this space.
10:24 Trevor Freeman: Yeah, I guess something that I think has become clear to folks outside of us who kind of are in the industry is just how tied our energy reality and energy policy is to what's happening globally. And to your point, kind of that global policy, global economics—it's all intertwined and probably people are paying attention to it more now than at least in recent memory.
10:48 Francis Bradley: Yeah, and the good news, at least with respect to electricity, is we are not tied to a world market for electricity and electricity pricing the way like the oil and gas and the price at the pump. If you're filling up your car—I don't fill up my car anymore, I drive electric. But I, you know, I've got family and colleagues that are filling up and I'm hearing, you know, already feeling pain at the pump, which is, you know, the reality of having an international world market.
11:21 Francis Bradley: Our electricity market thankfully doesn't get that kind of—of an impact as a result of those changes. However, what happens in the U.S. with respect to supply and reliability certainly affects us, and it's something that we're watching closely. You know, we've seen cancellations of offshore wind projects, for example, off the East Coast of the United States. You know, we've seen a step back from a number of different types of technologies in the U.S.. So, while international affairs are not necessarily making me as concerned directly with respect to electricity, the North American picture, though, is raising questions with respect to reliability.
11:58 Trevor Freeman: We always go to interesting places during these conversations, right, Francis?
12:02 Francis Bradley: We do, I know. And I kind of—you got my brain going here. Sometimes I like to go down a rabbit hole.
12:09 Trevor Freeman: Okay, so I think that's a good context setting. That's a good place to start to understand where we are, what's been kind of going on, who knows what's coming up. But I do want to spend the bulk of our conversation here talking about Electricity Canada's 2026 State of the Industry report, and the title of that report is "Forging Canada's Electricity Future".
12:31 Trevor Freeman: So, not to spend too much time on semantics, but in previous years, you've titled these reports "Build It," "Getting to Yes" was another example. This year you've chosen "Forging." Is there a play on words there? You know, we're moving into a more high-pressure, difficult phase of the energy transition? Is there anything that we should read into that title, or am I kind of just picking at straws here?
12:56 Francis Bradley: No, you're not. We've been very intentional in terms of what we've been titling our State of the Industry. And so, you know, we've seen an evolution in terms of the thematic approach that we've been taking to this report. And so, you know, when I moved into the role of CEO, we began producing sort of these annual snapshots of the sector. They're intended to kind of lay out what we see as the current state of the electricity sector in Canada and our prescriptions for, you know, what should be done to be able to address our challenges.
13:30 Francis Bradley: And you know, if I look back over the last several years—and you noted some of the thematic approaches we've had in the past—2019 we started with, you know, it was all about "Resilience". 2020 it was about "Transformation". 2021 it was "Renewal". 2022 everybody was talking about net zero, so our theme back then was "Accelerating to Net Zero". 2023, "Build It," you noted that. 2024 was "Getting to Yes," and you noted that one as well. That was an interesting report because it really did focus on—it seemed to have a culture of "no" when it comes to "can we get stuff done?" and it attempted to address that.
14:14 Francis Bradley: 2025, last year's report, you know, as you noted, we were in an interesting place this time last year. You know, we'd just come out of an election. So at the beginning of last year, we put out our annual State of the Industry and it was focused on—we called it "Electricity is Essential" and it really was kind of our election platform edition for electricity.
14:38 Francis Bradley: And yeah, here we are in 2026, so "Forging Canada's Electricity Future." And now, you know, we were very conscious; we wanted to use that term "forging". And forging is, as we note in the report at the very beginning, it means to create something strong and something lasting. So, for example, one forges steel, but you just bake a pie. So, like, we're talking about what is going to be long-lasting and sustainable in terms of our build-out for the future.
15:11 Francis Bradley: So, it isn't necessarily about higher pressure, but it's that it's time to build. It's time to build now, but it's time to build stuff that is going to be enduring, especially given the moment we're in. And that moment includes—well, some things that we haven't seen for a while: federal-provincial-territorial consensus on the need to address long-term electricity needs.
15:37 Francis Bradley: You know, as I mentioned a little bit earlier, we've got people in the key offices in Ottawa, for example, that actually understand the electricity sector, and a federal government that has said that they're going to be introducing very soon—by the time this airs, it's probably already out there—a federal strategy with respect to electricity, something that we've been asking for for a while. So, it isn't necessarily about pressure; it's more about building something that is enduring and something that will last and something that is sustainable given the sort of the time and place that we find ourselves in.
16:15 Trevor Freeman: And in light of that, like looking at the fact that we are hopefully moving into this period of building, of growing, you know, something that jumps out from the report is trust in electricity companies. So, you note that trust is at an all-time high in the players in the sector, even as a majority of Canadians are feeling, you know, to put it in quotes, "financially paralyzed"—and that's from a 2025 RBC study. Trust isn't usually a word that we use for large institutions, large organizations, which a lot of our energy companies are. Why do you think that Canadians are feeling an all-time high in trust in their utilities right now, maybe more so than other parts of the sector? And how do we protect that trust, and I'm thinking especially as we move into periods of growth, periods of change in the industry? How do we protect that?
17:08 Francis Bradley: Yeah, trust is—it's an interesting concept, particularly with sort of institutions when we're approaching it from that perspective. So, you know, what we're talking about here in the report is a specific measure on favorability, and the favorability towards electricity companies specifically. And so, this comes from the polling work that we do, the annual polling that we undertake on behalf of the sector.
17:39 Francis Bradley: Now, polling is interesting; public opinion research is interesting. Almost 40 years ago, when I was hired into this sector, I was hired at the Canadian Electrical Association at the time specifically because of the work that I'd previously and quite recently been doing in public opinion research in the oil and gas sector. So, you know, when we've got questions about what our polling is, I bring both some historical perspectives and I perhaps bring some biases to these conversations.
18:13 Francis Bradley: So, what is trust and why are we suddenly seeing this upswing in favorability? So, my take on it is that it's all about reliability. My take is that favorability is being driven, I think, partially by extreme weather of all things. Because, you know, the last time we saw favorability ratings this high was following the ice storm in Eastern Canada in 1998.
18:41 Francis Bradley: So, customers are seeing electricity companies now, today, keeping the lights on, restoring power following extreme weather events. And they're being told by the media, and they see it and read it everywhere, that weather events are becoming more frequent, they're becoming more extreme, and yet the companies are maintaining reliability. And that is something I think the customer is feeling.
19:10 Francis Bradley: So, like, if you think of sort of a hierarchy of needs from a customer's perspective of what they need from an electricity company—and while, you know, it's going to differ from person to person in terms of what the ordering is going to be—I can guarantee that the top three will be environmental impact, cost, and reliability. And of those three, that last one is actually the first one: reliability. For the customer, they want all of the different attributes that you get from electricity, but the one thing that is non-negotiable is reliability; the lights need to stay on.
19:48 Francis Bradley: And you know, I approach this based upon the work that I've done, as I said, historically. I recall doing focus groups in the spring of 1998 following the ice storm, when we saw the last really major surge in favorability. And I was asking customers about their views, and you know, at the time, as I said, you've got people that are suddenly more favorable towards the sector.
20:13 Francis Bradley: And what I was getting in the focus groups, in the conversations, was people had seen a lot of images on television news and on the cover of newspapers and magazines back when people actually had hard copies of newspapers and magazines. Of images of crews doing heroic things—you know, like hanging off of helicopters, working on lines, and so on. And so, you know, I really do think there is a direct relation between people's favorability of the sector and their perception that given that reliability is so critically important, we as a sector seem to be doing really good stuff. And, you know, they continue to see images on the net as opposed to necessarily in hard copy newspapers of the sector doing incredibly, you know, difficult and challenging things to make sure that the lights stay on for customers.
21:12 Francis Bradley: But of course, it isn't all about simply favorability, and as I said, it's reliability, it's environment, and its cost. And the biggest challenge outside of that, I think over the long term, is going to be the whole question around affordability and cost to the customer. So, you know, you're asking what's driving it, I think it's reliability, but what's the major challenge going forward? I think it's going to be all about affordability for the customer.
21:40 Trevor Freeman: Yeah, it's this interesting, almost ironic feature of extreme weather, of these major outage events—and you know, I'm speaking from Ottawa, we've had our share in the last number of years, let me tell you—that it does force the customers to think more about what it takes to keep the lights on. And if everything's running smoothly and there's no bumps in the road at all, it almost gets forgotten a little bit. But it takes those big events to sort of bring that back to the forefront and there's inconvenience, of course, in the outage, but it also helps people to understand, yeah, this is what is required for this, you know, a grid that is complex and difficult to keep up and running.
22:24 Trevor Freeman: So, I kind of hear what you're saying, affordability you've highlighted a couple times there in the last little bit, and that's kind of where I want to go next. That continues to be top of mind for customers, and you've highlighted it, we hear that from our customers, we see that in the kind of conversations that we're having with our customers. Electricity Canada runs a national customer survey; back in 2024, 84% of respondents to your survey said that an increase in my electricity bill would have a major impact on my finances. So, you know, customers are saying, we'll feel it if electricity bills go up.
23:02 Trevor Freeman: And there's a tension in that because for the foreseeable future, affordability and the need to invest in the grid to build, to grow—we talk about that a lot on the show about how we kind of need to allow for more capacity, accept more distributed energy resources—those two things are going to be in tension with each other. How can utilities manage that, work with other stakeholders—for example, like various levels of government—how do we work together to ensure that the need to expand and invest in the grid doesn't impact rates too dramatically and impact affordability that customers say is so important?
23:44 Francis Bradley: Yeah, and that's the—that's the, you know, that's I think probably the most fundamental challenge that the sector is going to face in the years ahead, the whole challenge around affordability. But sort of I come at this in a bit of a different way, and that is not, you know, not the question of what the customer is paying but what the customer should be paying versus the taxpayer, right?
24:14 Francis Bradley: And so, the question I have is, you know, shouldn't we be looking at treating electricity as part of our core infrastructure? Right? And you know, we've actually started to have conversations around this with respect to our, you know, our defense spending targets. We're going to go from 2 to 3.5%, but that includes, you know, sort of all the supporting infrastructure for defense. Well, geez, shouldn't that actually include, you know, the defense infrastructure, the defense critical electricity infrastructure?
24:49 Francis Bradley: So, you know, if we're thinking about infrastructure and electricity being part of the core infrastructure, as we do with roads or ports or public transit, for example—core infrastructure that is required to enable the economic prosperity of the country—then we shouldn't be looking at relying solely on the kilowatt-hours paid by customers. Because this isn't simply, you know, delivering electricity to a customer; it is ensuring that we have the infrastructure that the economy as a whole needs.
25:27 Francis Bradley: So, you know, just like transit users today, when they buy their transit pass, are not paying 100% of the cost because we recognize that that's actually part of core infrastructure for a country and it needs tax-based funding. So, you know, we need to be looking at more creative ways to be able to address what that funding gap is going to be.
25:54 Francis Bradley: You know, we've got existing tools; we've got the clean technology and clean electricity investment tax credits, we've got the Canada Infrastructure Bank, we've got indigenous loan guarantees—there's a number of other programs that the federal government has in place. But we're going to need to do a lot more if we're going to actually look at kind of growing the Canadian economy and bringing in the investments of basically $2 trillion over the next 25 years. All of that $2 trillion can't go on the rate base, right? But by the same token, when you look at every other piece of core infrastructure that we've got, it is paid for by a mix of user fees and tax base because this is what one does as a nation—one supports the core infrastructure that we've got. So, I think that's how we're going to have to address this in the future. It is kind of having a clear understanding of what one does as a country for our infrastructure, and so it should be paid for as infrastructure as opposed to consumption of electricity by consumers.
27:01 Trevor Freeman: Now, in Canada—like a lot of other jurisdictions—energy is a provincial jurisdiction. So, the kind of change and change in thinking that you're talking about, it's not just one conversation you need to have with the federal government across the country; you're talking about multiple different stakeholders and players and trying to move that conversation. How do you go about that? And I know you're not starting from scratch; this is a conversation you've been having for a while. What does that change look like in a country like Canada where we've got so many different jurisdictions?
27:37 Francis Bradley: Yeah, well, you know, we've done this before. And we've done this with other sectors. No, I mean we have, right? You quite rightly point out that electricity is a provincial responsibility according to the Canadian Constitution. But guess what? So is health. So is public—I mentioned public transit. You know, when we build the next LRT line, it's not going to be all paid for by transit users in Ontario. Some of it is going to be paid for by the provincial government and some of it is going to be paid for by the federal government. You're not seeing any major transit infrastructure in this country—and that is not a federal responsibility—not being built today without some federal contribution.
28:23 Francis Bradley: So, we're not starting from zero from a conceptual standpoint; we do this with many other sectors, but it is those sectors that we know are the kind of the core infrastructure that we require as a country, you know, from health care to public transit to roads and so on. And the conversations are not, you know, not just starting tomorrow, right? These are conversations that have been going on for quite some time.
28:50 Francis Bradley: But yeah, you know, it's interesting when talking to folks that don't spend a lot of time in this space, they ask, like you did, they ask the question, "Wait a second, this is provincial responsibility, isn't it going to be just like an absolute bear to try and have this conversation?" Yeah, not so much. It's like, this is—we've had this conversation on a whole pile of other files where we recognized that we needed a more holistic approach and a national approach that brings together the federal government, the provincial government, the regional municipal governments, and the local community.
29:26 Trevor Freeman: Great. So, pulling on that same thread, regulatory constraints—we all like to talk about regulatory constraints, it's a reality in our industry. The report talks about this being a system that chooses delays. So, tell me a little bit about that and about some of the specific challenges that utilities are hitting right now when they're trying to get projects moving, trying to get things off the ground, and what do you recommend, what does Electricity Canada recommend to streamline that process and get things moving?
30:00 Francis Bradley: Right. So, you know, and we talked earlier about some of the themes of the previous reports—one of them was thematically called "Getting to Yes". Because yeah, I mean, at least our view is by and large the approval regimes that we've got for projects in this country are biased towards figuring out how to turn down projects. You know, what are all of the ways that one can say no, as opposed to like, how do we actually get to yes, and how do we use these—and that isn't to say that it should automatically be a yes or automatically be a no. It should be a clear process that isn't biased one way or the other.
30:41 Francis Bradley: And also, you know, the way we've kind of built this system over the years, we've got multiple levels of government—we were chatting about that just a moment ago with respect to funding—from municipal to regional to provincial and territorial and federal government. And on any project, there's requirement, there's regulations, and there's requirement for approvals and need for coordination, and so inevitably right off the bat, it's going to result in delays. Delays, as I always like to point out to people, delays mean costs—additional costs, additional costs are borne by the customer. So, you know, if we can address this, it also helps us to address the question that we were talking about earlier about affordability.
31:30 Francis Bradley: Right? Like, how long does it take to get a major project built? Depending upon the kind of project that you're talking about, it can be decades or more. So, you know, to what degree can we simplify this? We've got duplication—federal and provincial processes. As well as, in addition to that duplication and different layers, we've got unnecessary regulatory actions that crop up, and the example that I often use—because it's a real head-scratcher for me—is a couple of years ago, the federal government changed the Fisheries Act.
32:07 Francis Bradley: And the Fisheries Act now protects fish as opposed to protecting fisheries. And that sounds like a fairly simple esoteric issue, but it is massively now complicating the licensing and the relicensing even of existing facilities when their licensing comes up. So, by—it wasn't intentional to make it that much more complicated, but it is almost impossible right now to license a hydro facility. There are very few hydro facilities that are currently compliant with this new Fisheries Act that protects individual fish as opposed to fish populations. I don't know, maybe part of the problem is the word fish is both singular and plural, but that just gives you a little more complication for when lawyers get involved in this.
32:59 Francis Bradley: So, listen, what do we need, right? For years, we've had, in four or five years in a row, either in the federal budget or in the fall economic statements or in other pronouncements by the government of Canada, a promise to bring in a "one project, one approval" regime, which sounds great, but we haven't gotten there yet. And it's something that keeps getting promised year after year after year. We need to get to that one project, one approval regime.
33:34 Francis Bradley: And then the other thing is the federal government has also now committed—they introduced it in Bill C-5 for the projects of national interest—a two-year federal approval timeline for major projects. Well, we actually need that for all projects, not just those "PONIs," not just those projects of national interest. We should have a federal timeline on all projects. Again, which isn't to say that every project gets approved within two years, but like, if it's going to get a thumbs up or a thumbs down, you need to know in a reasonable amount of time so that you can figure out what the alternative will be if it's a thumbs down.
34:16 Francis Bradley: So, you know, I think it's just as reasonable to say we need to know if we're getting approval, but we also need to know if we're not getting approved so that alternatives—and that needs to be done in a timely manner. And so the federal government has permitted, has committed to like this two-year timeline for projects of national interest; we'd like to see that across the board—federal government, provincial governments as well—for all projects. We've got the Major Projects Office that's been set up; I'm certain that already there's lessons that are being learned from the Major Projects Office. Well, let's draw those lessons and apply them to all projects, not projects of national interest.
35:00 Francis Bradley: Red tape reduction—we've heard of desires to ensure that we're looking at opportunities—well, that should be a continuous and ongoing process. And then finally, duplication between the federal government and the provinces—we need to eliminate that duplication. You know, for example, even on things as simple as environmental assessments—well, pick one, right? Let's get an agreement between both levels of government that one project, one review for that project will be sufficient. And so the feds can recognize the provincial process, the provincial can recognize the federal—one or the other as opposed to having multiple levels of government essentially doing the same work over and over again. And again, as I said earlier, as you well know, Trevor, these additional costs land in one place and one place only right now, and that's on the ratepayer, that's on the customer.
35:56 Trevor Freeman: And it's that double cost of the additional time and effort necessary as well as delaying whatever kind of economic activity the customer might be waiting for, which kind of ties into my next question here of we're seeing more and more—and this has always been the case but maybe it's just a little bit more on the forefront now—the importance of energy for economic development, for attracting investment and business. And that's true in our service territory absolutely as well as others. So, supply chain challenges have cropped up in the last little while and are getting into the mix and causing some of those delays. In order to move forward, what can the federal government do to bolster supply chains? Is it bringing more things domestically? Are there other tools that they have at their disposal? How do we go about addressing the supply chain challenge?
36:52 Francis Bradley: Yeah, and this is a real issue—as you know from your perch at Hydro Ottawa—it's a challenge for even a company such as yours and it's right across the sector. The delays and the time that it takes to get into the queue to get particularly for large pieces of equipment, but even for some of the smaller stuff, is simply becoming more and more challenging. We thought it was a COVID-19 blip, but it wasn't, right? I mean, it is continuing, it is persisting six years later; the supply chains remain as challenged as they were, probably even more so. I mean, a couple of years ago we saw a ship get stuck sideways in the Suez Canal and it affected supply chains for every sector right across the globe.
37:46 Francis Bradley: So yeah, you know, we need to be addressing this. So what we're proposing is we look at the establishment of what we're calling a Canadian Electricity Supply Chain Roadmap. This, done in partnership with the federal government, electricity companies, suppliers, and so on—everybody that's got a stake in this—to take a more systematic and collaborative and cooperative approach to addressing supply chains, and come together to identify those opportunities to do some of the things that you mentioned. You know, what about domestic production on some of these things? What about domestic production in those areas where we've got the potential for exports as well? So that would be potentially not only an ability to address a supply chain issue, but also to look at economic opportunities for Canadian businesses.
38:43 Francis Bradley: And can we look at leveraging some of the existing tools that we've got and repurpose them so that they are focused on addressing what would be identified as needing to be in that supply chain roadmap? Let's leverage tools such as tax credits, Business Development Canada, Export Development Canada, the Canada Growth Fund. So, you know, it'd be interesting if there were other venues and other opportunities, but we have existing tools; we're just not, I think, focusing them directly and specifically with respect to the supply chain requirements for the electricity sector and we should be looking at doing that. And you know, the challenges—I've spent time with the steel producers, for example—it is fascinating to try and get a sense of what those challenges are for the partners that we've got, whether it's steel or aluminum or finished products or transformers; it is endlessly complex, evolving, and so you know, we really do think developing some kind of a clear roadmap with all of the stakeholders would benefit the sector as a whole.
39:56 Trevor Freeman: Yeah, I mean certainly those challenges are ubiquitous across multiple sectors, and I think the one thing that we do find is when we bring up the challenges we're having with our customers or potential customers, they all get it, it's not a surprise. They don't sit there kind of surprised to hear that oh, it's going to take us this much time to bring in that transformer because they're going through some of those same challenges and I think the need is cross-cutting to address it. Another input, of course, into any sector and certainly the electricity industry is just the human capital required—the skilled labor required on the design side, on the construction side. Your report recommends establishing a Federal Industry Workforce Advisory Council. What would the priority be for that council and how do you help the utility industry compete against other industries that are also out there kind of participating in this war on talent trying to get the best and brightest into their sectors?
41:03 Francis Bradley: Yeah, no, I mean it is definitely a challenge. It's something that we've been addressing for, geez, probably two decades now at the association. We helped establish Electricity Human Resources Canada back in the day; it was spun off from some of our activities we'd done previously. So, you know, this is an area that we've been particularly concerned about in the sector for, well, as I say, you know, 20 years, it's been a generation that we've seen this challenge coming and we know it's on its way.
41:38 Francis Bradley: We are seeing, I think, some very good work in this space—I did mention Electricity Human Resources Canada; they do some terrific work, they are absolutely a critical stakeholder, increasingly a thought leader in this space. But you know, as you note, we have a very specific ask in our State of the Industry and that is getting the federal government to pull together a senior-level advisory committee with representatives from industry associations, from unions, from training providers, from the sector as a whole, to discuss these emerging labor market issues, to review the forecasts.
42:18 Francis Bradley: They need to address strategies, and so the mandate needs to be very specific: ongoing review, monitoring, and improvement of our workforce mechanisms to ensure that they remain adaptive and responsive to labor market realities. And so, this is not something that the sector and the electricity companies themselves control; this is something that requires the collaboration and participation of governments with respect to the policies that they bring forward, with unions, and with the training providers.
42:55 Trevor Freeman: Yeah, and as we look at sort of that next generation—you talk about this being a generational challenge—it's one thing to attract the skilled workers of today, it's another to bring up and build those skill sets. We talk about that a lot on the show about how we kind of need to build those skill sets. So, a bit of a platform for you here: why should someone consider that career in the electricity industry? What's the hook? What's the thing that you would convince them to come? I kind of know what my pitch is, but I'm curious to hear what yours is.
43:29 Francis Bradley: All right. Well, listen, I mean, like, sort of on the first piece, you know, I think this is where the adaptive and responsive comes into play. That advisory council I talked about I think would be able to recommend how we adjust and how we adapt our programs to further, you know, promote the sector. But why would I recommend somebody in this sector, and who would I begin with? Absolutely.
43:56 Francis Bradley: I mean, first off, I mean, this is a sector where we're going to see massive growth. We know that it is coming; we know that we're going to see a doubling of demand out to 2050. And so, with that massive growth, the prospects for skilled trades, the prospects for anybody in this sector is very bright.
44:21 Francis Bradley: And you know, one of the other things as well that I'd like to point out is we hear a lot of talk about how AI is going to massively change the workforce of the future. But when we're talking about skilled trades, you know, AI can do a lot of things, but ChatGPT is never going to be able to climb a pole, swing a hammer, or install an insulator. So, you know, not only is this a sector where the growth is going to be very significant over the next 25 years, it's also one where we know we actually need people to do these things.
44:54 Francis Bradley: And these are, you know, for a certain type of person, this is really cool and interesting stuff. So, you know, whether it is in the skilled trades or people in the technologies, this is a sector that has some really interesting, fascinating career choices and they're ones that, you know, the ChatGPT is not going to be taking away from you.
45:18 Trevor Freeman: Yeah, and it is this—the sector is evolving, it's innovating, it's changing, but to your point, we still need that traditional infrastructure. We need that growth, there will be more poles and wires, there will be cooler technology to work on, but we still need folks to install them. And something that I tell people that are interested—you know, a lot of younger folks coming up are really passionate about the environment, climate change—this is a great sector for that. This is a great spot to focus on that; the electricity industry is the, you know, tip of the spear when it comes to addressing climate change—electricity is the solution.
46:01 Francis Bradley: And it will continue to be so well into the future. Yeah, no, absolutely couldn't agree more.
46:07 Trevor Freeman: So, pivoting then to climate change, and we're seeing we've talked here a couple times about the increase in severe weather events, you know, wildfires in parts of the country. Utilities are facing this challenge of not only meeting growing demand but also meeting it in a harsher environment—I think there's no better way to say it—our grid needs to be more resilient and people are relying on it even more. What are some of the recommendations that you've identified on how utilities adapt to this changing world and become more resilient?
46:46 Francis Bradley: Yeah, well, you know, you're right, the conditions, the extreme weather that we're facing is not something that's going to go away. I find it interesting that I think every six months we add something new to the lexicon to try and just describe how crazy the weather has gotten—you know, like atmospheric rivers and heat domes and...
47:09 Trevor Freeman: Derecho!
47:11 Francis Bradley: Yeah, right, like when did we—I never heard of a derecho until it ripped through, I don't know, how many thousands of poles it tore up through Ottawa. Exactly. So, you know, this stuff is real and it's evolving.
47:25 Francis Bradley: And so, yeah, what are we proposing? We've kind of got three big asks in this area. The first one is we need to do a review of those federal and provincial legal frameworks. Do we have the appropriate protections related to industry-caused ignitions as we say? So, you know, if inadvertent but there is a spark from infrastructure that causes, for example, a fire, you know, do we actually have legal frameworks that can address this in a way that doesn't simply go in and bankrupt a company as happened in California? So we're supporting work in this space.
48:06 Francis Bradley: Second, we want to establish formal coordination mechanisms between our sector and—it may sound a little esoteric for us sitting here in downtown Ottawa—but Parks Canada, to address vegetation management on federal lands. There is a lot of federal land particularly, for example, in the Rockies, but not exclusively; there's lots of other parts of this country where there's vast swaths of land that is owned by Parks Canada that our infrastructure transits through, and so we need better coordination mechanisms. And we saw that frankly with respect to the fire in Jasper a couple of years ago that we could and need to do a lot better in terms of our coordination.
48:54 Francis Bradley: And then finally, we're suggesting looking at a resiliency tax credit or some kind of a targeted funding program to support weather hardening of electricity infrastructure, to protect the system from growing exposure to extreme weather. To cover off all of those things, whether it's wildfires or ice storms or windstorms or floods or tornadoes. You know, again, it kind of comes back to that concept of this is core infrastructure; there are some things that actually should be tax-supported, and weather hardening of our core infrastructure is something that we should be thinking about. Is that should be on the bills of customers, or is that something that as a country we need to address?
49:43 Trevor Freeman: Great. So Francis, as we wrap up our conversation here—you know, if we go to the end of your State of the Industry report, you've got 18 recommendations. We're not going to go through each one individually. Is there one that rises above the rest, or let me put this a different way: if you could sum up or distill this kind of entire report into a key takeaway or a key action item, what would that be? How do you kind of wrap all this up in a bow, which I know is a difficult thing to do for such a comprehensive report as this?
50:23 Francis Bradley: Right. So, you're actually asking two questions there: is there one I want to point out or and what's the wrap-up? I mean, if there was one thing of those 18 that I'd say, "Please in the next 12 months, for goodness' sake, at least do this one thing," it would be reforming the Fisheries Act, and I mentioned that earlier. Because right now, it focuses on individual fish as opposed to the impact on fish populations. So, that's one if I wanted one that I think should be fairly easy to address and to move forward with, it would be that one, which I think was number two on the list.
51:03 Francis Bradley: But you know, of all of the 18, they're all about "can we get our stuff built?" and "can we get it done in a timely manner because the customer is counting on us?" So, you know, if one of those encapsulates that, I would say it's probably the first one, which, though talks, specifically to this two-year federal approval timeline. Thematically, what it's all about is we have to move and we have to move quickly, but we have to do it in a collaborative manner.
51:35 Francis Bradley: But you know, in the end here, what we're talking about is demand is going to double in the next 25 years. We need to invest $2 trillion. So let's do this in a manner that is sustainable and enduring, so not piecemeal, not piece by piece. So that kind of brings me back full circle to the very beginning of this report: "Forging Canada's Electricity Future." Forging is to create something strong and lasting through effort. And so I think thematically it's "let's build sustainably and in an enduring manner and not piecemeal". So, let's forge.
52:13 Trevor Freeman: I had planned on wrapping this up with inviting you back on the show a year from now to kind of talk about where we go, but you've recently announced that you're retiring soon—the next sort of few months are going to be wrapping up your time at Electricity Canada. So first of all, congratulations on that.
52:32 Francis Bradley: Thank you.
52:33 Trevor Freeman: The invitation stands, so you're welcome to come back out of retirement to come on the show and check in with where we are, and so the invitation will remain open.
52:43 Francis Bradley: Well, and as you know, I do a podcast, and I may continue to do my podcast on the future of electricity beyond that. Remains to be seen.
52:54 Trevor Freeman: That's great. Well, I hope that on your show, on this show, we'll be able to talk through how some of these things that we're discussing now, how they've been implemented, how they've actually moved forward and we're able to see some results in that. Francis, thanks so much for coming on the show. Always appreciate your insight and appreciate you being here and looking forward to chatting again soon.
53:18 Francis Bradley: Awesome, always great to chat. Thanks for the invitation.
53:21 Trevor Freeman: Take care.
53:26 Trevor Freeman: Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the Think Energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and it would be great if you could leave us a review—it really helps us to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback, comments, or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at [email protected].
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When we say 'the cloud' what we mean is 'the data centre'. Globally, data centres are projected to consume over 1000 terawatt hours in 2026. What does that mean for energy production, distribution, and consumption? Guest Phil Harris, Cerio President and CEO, joins thinkenergy to shed light on something we all rely on but may not fully understand. From efficiency to sustainability, environmental concerns to Cerio's role improving how data centres manage energy. Listen in for the future of cloud computing.
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Related links
● Cerio: https://www.cerio.ai/
● Phil Harris on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/paharris/
● Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114
● Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en
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Transcript:
Trevor Freeman 00:07
Welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast, changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at [email protected]. Hi everyone, and welcome back. Data centres have come up a number of times on this show, and for very good reason, they have become a key underpinning technology for so much of our lives, every time we pull out that phone from our pockets to pull up directions or buy something online or doom, scroll on your social media or new site of choice, every time you use your phone stream a movie, leverage an AI model, whatever you end up using it for, it's funny as I read this list, I'm sure there's like some university student out there who's thinking, man, what is this old man talking about? We don't use our phones for that, whatever the kids are doing these days, whatever we're doing these days with our phones, with our computers, our tablets, et cetera. All of that leverages infrastructure that most of us have never seen and, quite frankly, probably don't really understand we talk about the cloud like it's this amorphous, nebulous thing, but in reality, we're talking about real hardware in a real building that uses real energy, mainly electricity, a lot of water. And this isn't really new, like we've been leveraging centralized data centres for many years now, but what is changing is the scale of the data centres that we're seeing now, and the pace of growth in computing power that we need to do, the things that we want to do, and that our data centres are able to deliver. So just to throw a few numbers at it, the traditional data centre servers that maybe power the early days of on demand online streaming services, for example, they used anywhere from five to 15 kilowatts per rack. But modern server racks that are used to power AI searches, for example, can hit anywhere from 60 to 100 kilowatts per rack. This is great from a power output per rack perspective, but it means massive energy needs, and that is showing up in the size of load requests that we're seeing from new data centres. New data centres today are asking for service connections that are orders of magnitude higher than those built even just five years ago, globally, data centres are projected to consume over 1000 terawatts in 2026 or terawatt hours, sorry, in 2026 and just a quick kind of refresher from high school or wherever you would have learned this, a terawatt is 1000 gigawatts, which is 1000 megawatts. So 1000 terawatt hours, which is roughly equivalent to the annual electricity demand from the country of Japan, an entire country. So given all of this, there are a lot of incentives to find ways to maximize efficiency and reduce some of that energy demand, and that's where my next guest, Phil Harris and his company Cerio come into play. I'll let Phil get into the details of exactly what Cerio does, but essentially, their goal is to reimagine the data centre to maximize sustainability and reduce energy needs. Phil is Cerio's President and CEO, and has been in the networking and data centre industry for over 35 years, including at well known companies like Intel and Cisco. And I'm really excited about this conversation. One to understand, how do we make data centres a little bit more efficient, or maybe a lot more efficient, but also just to really understand, like, what are we talking about when we talk about a data centre? What is actually happening, what is physically inside these buildings, and we'll get into a little bit of that in our conversation. So Phil, welcome to the show.
Phil Harris 04:13
Well, thanks, Trevor. I appreciate it.
Trevor Freeman 04:13
So Phil, obviously we're here today to talk about your work building sustainable data centres, or trying to make data centres a little bit more sustainable. But before we get into that. You know, you've spent your career, you know, decades of your career at different tech giants. Let's call them in telecisco to to mention, you've seen quite a bit of change. No doubt, over your time, has that changed, like, does this industry change linearly? Does it grow fairly steady, or is it kind of big jumps? And are we on the cusp of any major shifts? What can you kind of tell us about the future of this, this sector, data, tech, etc?
Phil Harris 04:48
It's interesting, I think, as companies start, and I was at companies like Cisco, for example, when it was a very small company to when it was very large company. And this should be no surprise for anybody, the bigger the company gets, the harder. It is to change, and they really find that the only way they change is when they absolutely have to, not because they want to, and that's a combination of just inertia and shareholders expectations and a whole bunch of things. So I would say that the bigger the company is, the harder is them, for them to react. And so I think small, nimble companies tend to do much better when there's a lot of transformational technology and development and changes in the overall ecosystem we live in. I think just the second part of your question, you know, I look at the current situation as a point in time where a lot of companies will have to make some significant changes, simply because we're hitting too many walls, technological walls, commercial walls, geopolitical walls, that are really sort of confining what people can do. So I think what's going to about to happen is we're about to see a significant change, and this is not atypical in the industry. If we think about back into the into the start of what we would think of today as computer science around mainframes that were happening in the 60s. You know, for about a decade and a half, two decades, there was a lot of dominance around a particular way of doing things. And then some new innovational technology came along that rapidly changed, that scaled out, and it went from a very dominant set of players to a much larger number of smaller players who could then provide more innovation and more scale and more choice. And I think we're about to see that transition occurring as well.
Trevor Freeman 06:25
So is this, is there sort of like an analogous time, 10 years ago, 20 years ago? Are we on the cusp of, like, the big, the big change that we've seen before? Like, what would you compare this to? You know, in the last 2030, years?
Phil Harris 06:40
Yeah. I mean, I think there's been eras of compute. And if we say, I mean, we can find analogies outside of the compute world, but let's just stay in the compute, computing science world. I gave the mainframe example as one, and then we went to what we call client server, which scaled out rapidly. Telephony. We went from large, big telephone exchanges that started in in the government space, went to very large organizations. Now, basically we've completely scaled out how we make phone calls to use that now 20th century as a terminology. Nobody really makes telephone calls anymore. And we went through this with cloud computing and the Internet, where there was a change in the approach to the way we did things that suddenly gave us a scale out mentality, rather than a scale up mentality. And I think that's what we have to key in on here. Is it that we can take some of you? I was on a panel yesterday where we were talking about scale, and I say, well, to scale or not to scale? That is not the question. It's how do we scale? Do we continue to scale up, which is the current model, or do we start to think about scaling out, which is a more distributed model? So we go from a small number of big things to a large number of smaller things. And typically in computer science, whatever you want to start, storage, compute, memory, telephony, everything we've ever done goes through this arc.
Trevor Freeman 07:59
Yeah, it's it's interesting, and it's, there's obviously my brain's gonna immediately try and find those, those similarities between my world that I live in on the energy side of things. And it's the same question, like, there, there's, there is no path where we're not expanding the amount of energy we need. We're not going to be using more energy. But there are different ways to do that, and there are different paths we can take the business as usual that just grow, grow, grow, decentralized energy production and large scale transmission. Or there's a combination of like, grow those things, but also find alternative methods. More ders more sort of like close to consumer energy sources and storage, et cetera, et cetera. And people that listen to this podcast know I kind of go on ad nauseam about this. So lots of similarities. There another kind of framing or foundational thing that I want to talk through before we really get into the meat of our conversation is helping ground both myself and our listeners, and what exactly we're talking about here. So we, we all use, whether we know it or not, we use, you know, like cloud computing constantly, whether it's in our calls, how we're using the internet, using AI, more, more frequently. Now, what is the physical reality behind that? What's actually happening? What is the term data centre? What is a data centre for our listeners here? What does that look like?
Phil Harris 09:26
Yeah, let's start there. That's a great question. We started recognizing that the amount of power and space required for computers in companies and government in all sorts of different applications was getting larger than we could put in a room, in a closet near maybe where people were using it. We had to sort of create dedicated space, because the power requirements, the cooling requirements, just the noise. You can't hear this, but just in my basement, I have a few different compute systems that my wife continues to tell me is keeping my neighborhood awake. The reality is the environmentals of these things became very difficult. So we created these purpose built locations that had then different requirements in terms of access and facilities and power and cooling and staffing. And so they became a new way of thinking about building compute infrastructure at a building level, not just at the individual computers themselves. So a data is usually a very large room or building, I should say that houses large amounts of compute and storage and other networking equipment. There's a whole range of different technologies that go into a data centre that allows us to process information. That's what a data centre is. To give you some analogies in the US, there's about nearly 6000 data centres, depending on how you measure a data centre. In Canada, we have about 400 in Europe, there's about 750 that we can identify as standalone data centres. You can probably find more places where computers are outside of people's homes, but that's about the ratio we're looking at.
Trevor Freeman 10:59
And we're seeing, I think, and tell me if I'm wrong here, like, all this talk about the AI proliferation, data centre proliferation, we're seeing an expansion of these. Is that we're seeing the size of these data centres expand, or we're seeing just more of them popping up. Like, what does it mean when we say we're seeing, like, data centre growth because of AI, what does that mean?
Phil Harris 11:24
Well, it's fascinating, because now our worlds collide, because the way we now think about how to describe a data centre isn't in the square footage or the number of computers, it's in how much power it consumes, and we now measure it in megawatts, and it starts in 10 megawatts, or single digit megawatts, very small data centres, into average size data centres in the 10s of megawatts, up to now the hundreds and the gigawatts of consumption that you look at these hyperscalers. But I think we have to put this into a sort of a human scale. It helps us to put this in human scale. If I were to go back to ChatGPT actually about now, 15 months ago. ChatGPT-4. If you were to put that data centre footprint into the province of Ontario, for example, where you and I both are right now, it would be the equivalent of a million internal combustion engine cars driving 30 kilometers a day, if you ever drive up the 401 you probably don't want to see another million cars on the 401 Yeah, but that's the amount of energy that we can think of in terms of a data centre of that scale.
Trevor Freeman 12:33
Yeah, and again, kind of putting it in the electrical industry's terms, what we consider as a large load so we have a specific designation of a large load request that is anything five megawatts and higher. And like, up until recently, we would get one or two of those every once in a while, like, it's pretty rare to get a large load request. We are seeing large load requests coming in at a near constant pace now, like the number of large load requests we're getting, and a lot of it is because of this, not all because of data centres or anything like that, but a lot of them are certainly driven by that need for more more computing power, more facilities that support that.
Phil Harris 13:18
That's right. And at the same time, we're seeing a demand on on energy around now home, EV charging, and other aspects of the general distribution of the power, everything's taking a step function. But if I could just say one thing to your point about before I was seven megawatts, was a high load, then we may need to change that scale. It's almost inefficient to build a data centre unless you're somewhere above the 10 megawatt range, because at that point, get somebody else to do it for you.
Trevor Freeman 13:42
Interesting, yeah, and that's where it's sort of like, almost like, renting space in a data centre for a request of that size. Interesting, something that you know, I've seen kind of in your in your writing, on your on your blogs, is the idea that traditional data centres are really built for peak capacity, which absolutely mirrors the power industry. We build our electrical grids for peak capacity, and obviously that leads to a fair amount of inefficiencies. So if you're building just a peak capacity, if you're not at peak capacity, there is an inefficiency happening. There something that you identified. It's a stat from your research talks about graphics processing unit usage rates as low as 20 or 25% so I'm assuming that means kind of like three quarters of that hardware is sitting idle or not being used valuably. Tell us a little bit about what, what Cerio what you're doing, what your composable architecture specifically is doing to reclaim that wasted power and cooling capacity,
Phil Harris 14:44
Yeah, and so it starts off with your the premise you correctly raised is that, if we think about the the equipment, the physical equipment, and how we put these devices and these components together in a data centre, the same model we've been using today is, is about 3035, Years old in terms of individual compute systems, where we run applications, software that has memory and central processing units, those typical things you have in a laptop, or you have every computer. But then we put these accelerators, these GPUs, companies like Nvidia now are the one most valuable companies on the planet, if not the most valuable planet company on the planet, because that's the technology they develop. But we're trying to put these new class of accelerators into an existing compute model which wasn't designed for this. So then itself now starts to fragment the ability to leverage those resources in a data centre. And as you accurately said, it's interesting. If I could geek out on this a little bit for the energy consumer in the room, please. Do we think? We think about the notion not only the megawatts of power going into the data but we we think about what we call power usage efficiency. And that basically says, whatever the power delivered to a data centre, how much of that is applicable to the IT systems in that data centre, a good, well run, efficient data centre is about 1.2 that means about 1.2 times the amount of power that's used is delivered. Your home, for example, is about 30 times the amount of power we use is what's delivered. We are very inefficient from our home use, by the way. But that's another problem to solve in another podcast, but in this case, that's all true until we then ask the question, but what's actually being used at that equipment? And that's now in that 25 to 30% range at any point in time, and we refer to that as stranded and idle assets that, for whatever reason, aren't where the application is or aren't applicable to be used for the application that moment because they're in some other box, or it's a time of day when people use equipment. And by the way, equipment like that isn't being used 24 by seven, but it's drawing power 24 by seven, right? So there's lots of inherent inefficiencies in that model. So what we do is we provide the ability to dynamically have pools of resources where we can dynamically attach resources to a compute system as required, at the scale you're required, and allowing you to be much more efficient in the timing of that and the amount of equipment required to meet your end solution. And by doing that, we can increase the number of accelerators that you apply to a compute system, which inherently means you are much more efficient in those compute systems, because it's not just the computers. As I said before, there's storage, there's firewalls, there's load balances, there's networking equipment, all of that can now be much more efficiently used. All of that is drawing power.
Trevor Freeman 17:35
So is the idea, then, that the equipment not being used, or when you're at a lower demand time in terms of computing power, you've got physical equipment idling, sort of in more idle mode, drawing less resources that you can then ramp up so the peak amount of equipment still there. You're just being more efficient with it when it's not being used. And you've developed a way to sort of dynamically pull that in. Is that what I'm hearing.
Phil Harris 18:00
Exactly, I'll give you an example. A data centre here in Toronto wanted to have a block of 128 GPUs. They could have, they could they could service their customers with, with the current systems they were using previously to deploying our infrastructure, they had to require deploy, actually, 200 GPUs and a very large number of servers in the to house those GPUs. By deploying this area technology, they brought that down to 136 actual GPUs, and they reduced the number of compute platforms by a factor of four. So they reduced it by 75%.
Trevor Freeman 18:35
Yeah, that's fantastic,
Phil Harris 18:36
With exactly the same outcomes to their customers. With no no contention for resources, no oversubscription of resources, just more efficient use of those resources.
Trevor Freeman 18:46
Gotcha. So still able to meet that peak demand, but not sort of firing up that equipment when it's not needed.
Phil Harris 18:53
Well, not just not firing it, not having to have as much stranded equipment, because we can use all the equipment all the time.
Trevor Freeman 19:01
Gotcha. Okay, so in when I was kind of setting up that last question, I used the term composable architecture, and I'll admit that I pulled that from your material. Help me understand what that means. So you know that I've also seen you use composable infrastructure sounds a bit abstract, like, what? What are we talking about here? What does that actually look like?
Phil Harris 19:20
When a consumer, or someone who's building a data centre buys their computer equipment, they usually will actually buy the computers, the GPUs, the storage and other things at the same time, and they will get delivered together, and that box now becomes a unit of compute capacity. But the thing about that is whether you're able to use that entire capacity, the length in which that's a useful there's a lot of innovation churn right now as new things are coming through very quickly. But that box is now solid. You know, it's statically built for the rest of its life. Pretty much, it's very expensive. IBM did a study to take a server out of a rack, these big, six foot racks or bigger, where. These servers are housed with lots of wires going into them, power and data and all sorts of things. It's about $1,000 a minute to take one of those servers out of the rack and either change something that's broken, update something so they just don't get taken out of the rack. Because the average time to take a server out of the rack is about an hour. The math on that's pretty simple. So if I'm spending $60,000 to upgrade a 20,030 $1,000 server, I'm just gonna leave it there and buy another one. So that creates more of these stranded assets. So composability says, Let's separate these things into, as I said, pools of resources, compute accelerators and other devices, and have a fabric between them that allows us to, in real time, assemble a compute system that I need. That's the composing part as I need it, because I can now take the resources anywhere in my data centre, if you've got the right fabric, which we've built that allows you then to real time build that compute system with exactly the same capabilities, exactly the same performance, and without having to change any of your software or the way the service work. Everything has to be off the shelf to make this work, and that's what we've built.
Trevor Freeman 21:05
Got you. So, two of the terms, and you'll forgive me, this is sort of a new sector for me. Two of the terms that are used as metrics to determine performance are power usage, effectiveness, and you've kind of talked about, you know, GPU usage. Is the industry moving more towards that GPU usage metric? Is that just something that you guys are kind of leading the curve on? Or where are we at on that?
Phil Harris 21:34
Oh no, this is very much the industry way of describing not just efficiency, but requirements. And we use very weird terms for this. Every industry has their weird term. Weird terminology, and we're now moving to the for example, in AI, the number of tokens per second when you and I put a request or a question into ChatGPT or CoPilot or chord, whatever we use, those words get translated into tokens, actually numbers. Every compute system is just a big calculator. At the end of the day, we do, we do massive processing on numbers. How many of those tokens can I put into the system? How long does it take to process those tokens and give me a response? And the tokens per second, per watt is now what we're asking. So how many tokens a second, and what power per token is it costing me to process information? And that's the interesting way of thinking about how AI, for example, and that's value started this conversation will be measured is the most amount of tokens per second, per watt. Now, right now, we're focusing on tokens per second. We're not looking at the last denominator, which is watts. So that's why these data centres are getting so ridiculous. Ridiculously large. And you know, we even heard it in the in the State of the Union address in the United States earlier in the week, where, you know, there's now the administration pushing cloud vendors and AI vendors to say, Hey, pretty soon you're gonna be on your own about delivering power. Because, quite frankly, the way you're going. It's going to become untenable to think about that from a national grid perspective. Now, I think that may be a little bit into the future, but I don't think it's a completely unreasonable sentiment at this point.
Trevor Freeman 23:12
Yeah, and I mean, you're talking about, and we talked earlier about the just the scale of energy usage here is reaching a new height, a new level. And if we break it down to the individual racks, you know, these racks of servers or processors that you've got in your data centre, we're now talking about anywhere from 50 kilowatts to 100 kilowatts of cooling need. And that's the big driver of energy usage, I think, is correct here is the cooling need per rack multiplied by, of course, big numbers to get those, you know, 5-10-20-30, megawatt data cetnre we're talking about when we talk about cooling and we talk about, you know, hot spots within a data centre, how does your approach differ from kind of the standard way of doing it.
Phil Harris 24:02
So that's a great question, and I think we should explain why the cooling part, it's a bit like buying really good, expensive wagyu steak every day and then having to spend a lot of money on a gym membership to then go and burn off those calories. So we put all this power into power these compute systems, but then we have to keep them cool, and the harder they that, the faster they run, the more powerful they run, the hotter they get. But we need to cool them. So there's this relationship between the more power we draw, the more cooling we need, and cooling is becoming, as I said, that sort of trade off for performance. Now there's lots of exotic ways of cooling computer systems. We can just blow air across them. We can have a liquid like the radiator in your car, or we can literally drop these compute systems into bars of solvents. Ferdinand Porsche, I like to use of other industry analogies. Ferdinand Porsche, the guy who obviously designed the first Porsches and the VW Beetle, realized if I could distribute the heat of the engine block with a horizontal block, I could blow air across it. It was much more efficient than trying to put a radiator to actually cool down the engine block the way that other cars who have the engine in the front, and it's because of surface area. Now, if I've got to put all my GPUs and CPUs and memory close together, either in the same box or the same rack, that concentration of heat needs to be addressed with cooling. One of the ways we can address this is not only to be very selected when I compose the GPU, it's the only time it's drawing power, but also I can spread them out through my data centre by having a fabric that allows me to connect them to the compute systems with the same performance, but now I can distribute my heat generation. That means I can cool more efficiently, just like that Fernand Porsche analogy of the of the Porsche 911 because now heat over over, spread of distance and surface area is a more efficient way, which means it won't mean that we won't ever get to liquid cooling. I don't think immersion cooling is a good idea for lots of other reasons. It's a necessity, more than an optimization, but we can defer the complexity, the cost of those exotic cooling systems if we're more efficient in a way we use and design our data centres.
Trevor Freeman 26:18
And I guess there's a similar description there of, if you're concentrating all that heat in a specific, you know, physical area within a bigger building room, whatever you want to call it, that that cooling system is having to work to that peak cooling need, so to that hot spot effectively. But it's not working just on that spot. It's working across the whole physical area. If you're spreading that cooling need out across the whole room, one the peak is a little bit lower, and you're just more effectively using your whole cooling system. Is that fair to say?
Phil Harris 26:52
And that's exactly the right way of looking at this. And think about it from this perspective as well. The reason we have to cool is because if we don't call sufficiently, those devices become very unreliable and reduce a useful lifespan without going into who, because they keep this information confidential. But one large cloud provider in the US, for example, a GPU that normally has a lifespan of at least three years, is going down to about nine months right now. And the reason for that reduction the lifespan of the use of that GPU, is because of the heating characteristics within these boxes that are getting even with all these cooling mechanisms are becoming now a reduction in the lifespan. So that means we have to create even, remember, I said what it costs to take a system out of a rack. That means we don't have to apply an efficient and effective cooling strategy, our power strategy and cooling trategy, then we start hitting problems very quickly.
Trevor Freeman 27:50
Got you okay. Okay, so there's a mantra that I admit I hadn't seen before until kind of reading some of your material. It's, it's friends. Don't let friends build data centres. And I think it's referring to, you know, this, this move. And there's so many industries that kind of do this cycle of centralization to decentralization, and the sort of data movement went towards that centralization, and you saw these big, massive data centres. But there's, there's kind of a move now back to, let's call it decentralization or repatriation of data. And so for various geopolitical reasons, organizations, companies, governments, are wanting to pull their data back home and have it kind of be more in their control, living in their own servers. So how are you or how is Cerio helping companies kind of get back into the data centre business or repatriate their data without, kind of, you know, getting into the troubles that led for to that centralization in the first place?
Phil Harris 28:55
Yeah, and by the way, I can't take real credit for that quote. Cole Crawford, who was one of the early guys at Facebook before it became META, and was one of the leading voices in the Open Compute platform movement, which is try and standardize how we do these things. Cole is now the CEO of a company called Vapor IO, and what he was really saying is, it's so complicated and difficult to run data centres, let alone building the capital expense. AI isn't just one thing. There's lots of stages in the workflow of AI. We train these big models. You have heard of large language models like ChatGPT or copilot, but what we use them for the results of those trained models is what we call inference. Now you'll now hear about agentic AI, where we turn those results into actions. Okay, that's the agency part of agentic. Well, the use of AI in the corporate world is now becoming, as you said, both regulated, but from an intellectual property perspective, it's about how I control my data and my information. Because if I put that all into somebody else's large language model, I basically put. Populated somebody else's large language model with what might be my proprietary information or information that's very sensitive, and it's one of the reasons why you'll hear in the press about anthropic for example, trying to put guardrails around the use of their AI, because they're very sensitive to this. Most enterprises, governments of all sorts, have realized, though, they need to have run this in their own data centres, because they need to have control over this in control over this information and the use of this information, that's the repatriation you're talking about, moving these workloads now into the organization that previously said, Hey, cloud computing can take this problem. We're going to now figure out how enterprises, which are far many more of them in far more diverse locations, can now build their own data centres and get the right power, the right efficiency, the right capabilities at the right cost.
Trevor Freeman 30:47
Does that open the door? I mean, earlier, you talked about, you know, if we're talking about a five megawatt data centre, it's almost not worth it. You know, that's just sort of renting space in someone else's. How does that track with an organization that won't have enough data or enough computing power, whatever the metric is to warrant a 30 megawatt data centre for their own data, but wants to get that that control, wants to bring it more in house, is our is your technology helping those smaller data centres exist? Is that the correlation there?
Phil Harris 31:18
We can now move it into one of the things that we another couple of terms that may be an maybe not your your listeners may not be familiar with in the compute world or the data centre world, we talk of brownfield and Greenfield. Brownfield is that which is already there. Greenfield is something I have to build new. A lot of the Brownfield world is what is the predominant sort of quantity of compute power on the planet is primarily brownfield The question is, can I take that existing infrastructure and put the capabilities we've been describing in this discussion into those brownfields? So I can reduce the cost of the expansion of that because I can reuse the compute equipments there, I can now add just the discrete GPU technology, for example, into an existing data centre that doesn't therefore blow the power budget or the cooling envelope within that environment, but I can still now start taking advantage as I figure out what my larger plans are, and at the same time, how do we have a tier of providers? I'll give you an example. There's a company in, again, in Canada, think on who are building a data centre in in Ottawa, it's going to have its own liquid natural LNG as its source of power for its own power requirements. Why? Because they can have the power they need as they need it in that location, and they can provide that secure infrastructure for both government and private enterprises, and think on is certainly in Canada, one of those companies that's really seen to be a trusted partner in this. So it will be a bit of what can I do myself? How do I have a trusted partner? We think of sovereign AI a lot. That means trust more than anything, and that's becoming the new mechanism of thinking about this.
Trevor Freeman 33:04
Thinking about the environmental impact of tech and of data. We've talked about the energy usage here, but there's also the physical aspect to it. Of the pace of improvement in technology means we see obsolescence, or we see kind of technology being outdated fairly quickly. We all, like on the personal level. We all see this with our cell phones, our smartphones, our whatever tech we have at home that seems to be out of date fairly soon. I think that the stat, or that the saying that's out there is, you know, tech is kind of obsolete or becomes trash within three years. Obviously, this is not sustainable. Is this part of the drive of what you're doing? Is it? Are you looking to sort of extend the life of the physical equipment you've touched on this a little bit, but maybe expand a little bit on that?
Phil Harris 33:52
Yeah, this goes a little bit back to that Brownfield-Greenfield discussion. But one way of looking at I guess, is when I put all of these components into what the classic model, the current model, I put my central processing unit, my memory, my storage, my GPUs, all in the same box. What is the thing in that box that I want to take advantage of as new innovation happens, versus that which is happening over a slower evolutionary cycle? Well, right now, if I put everything in the same compute unit. Go back to my cost of taking that box out of the rack. I'm pretty much limited by the slowest innovation curve within that platform. Now as what I can take advantage over time. Interestingly, GPUs are innovating currently at a clip of about once a year. Nvidia comes out the new generation of GPUs once a year, but now we're getting more GPUs into the market. We're getting much more diversity, and that diversity means I'll have more options more often. But if my compute system itself is only innovating once every three years to your point, then if I don't decouple these things, if I don't have the ability to separate these innovations. Curves. I'm always stuck with the slowest innovation curve. One of the things we've done at serial with the fabric we've built and the platform we've built is to allow you now to, if you like, dislocate those innovation curves and those options, so as new technology comes along, I can apply it to the things that are innovating slower and still get the outcomes I'm looking for. And that will significantly increase the existing lifespan of equipment that's in people's data centre.
Trevor Freeman 35:26
So, looking at a data centre of the future, and not, you know, not far into the future, let's say 5-10, years from now, are we seeing some of the same technology still exist within that data centre, or is it, you know, everything gets cycled out within like, what's the generation of a data centre, for example? Like, how often, or how soon will we see it all cycle out?
Phil Harris 35:48
I think you there's a there's a technical answer to that, and the financial answer to that. The depreciation model, so that the capital infrastructure can be written off people's books over a three or five year window is very typical. So we see that there's just a financial inhibition to changing more or faster than that three to five year window. The technical churn, as I said, is happening much more rapidly in the technologies that are drawing most power but providing most capability. So one of the things that we're looking at is how companies now start leasing infrastructure, because if they lease the infrastructure, they can now recycle that and bring new technology in faster into their organizations. But to do that, you've got to have the ability to bring new technology in and not be stuck with these static systems that we have today. So there's a set of financial instruments, and now with work that Cerio is doing, technical capabilities that allow customers to really continue to innovate. So there's no real, hey, it's going to be all churned out in three years. I'll continue to innovate over those three years, reciting the technology that can stay where it is and bringing new technologies as it becomes available at the right financial model.
Trevor Freeman 36:56
I'm curious about what that innovation is. So you talked about Nvidia, kind of essentially a new GPU every year. There's a new version every year. What is the innovation? Are they just is it getting faster and more compute power, and therefore it's pulling more energy? And is that just like a perpetual increase, or is it kind of same compute power, less energy, like, do we ever see, I guess what I'm what I'm getting at with this little bit of a ramble here is, do we ever see that that rate of change in energy usage start to flatten out and come down while we still can grow our computing power? Or does energy usage just continue to grow? Like, are we on a bit of a path with no end right now,
Phil Harris 37:44
History taught us a little bit about this. Gordon Moore, who was one of the founders of Intel actually, we had this term called Moore's Law, and Moore's Law was basically this idea that every 18 months we'll double the number of transistors on a piece of silicon. Now, for those in the computer science world, we understand what that means. For the rest of the world, the Trans World. The transistor is the smallest unit of technology within the computer. It's the basic building block of how we build computers. The central processing is all the GPUs. They all come down to taking literally silicon and in a foundry, we call them, figuring out how to make as many transistors interconnect with each other in a in a smaller area as possible, or the most amount of transistors we can. So a bit of a geeky answer to your question. But the way that we look at how each innovation improves is, are we increasing the number of transistors, which means we can do more math? Remember, all we're doing is processing numbers.
Trevor Freeman 38:41
Per unit, per physical unit, right?
Phil Harris 38:43
Per physical unit.
Trevor Freeman 38:44
Okay.
Phil Harris 38:45
And the way we do that is in these big foundries that process all this silicon into these components. They have, what are called process nodes and the and literally how we etch a transistor, it's called lithography onto a piece of silicon. Tells us the power of that piece of silicon and the more I can etch. So we get into what we call the nanometer scale, or what we call a process node. So every time, if you really look into the spec sheets of Nvidia, every generation, they'll talk about how many nanometers their silicon process is based on. Because the smaller I can get that number, the more transistors I can have on the same amount of silicon, the more processing I have, but every transistor takes power. So with more transistors, I require more power, even though in the same physical space, it looks like the same amount of silicon. Therefore, your question was a great one. Do we ever get to zero nanometers? Well, no, we're going to hit a wall here eventually. So then the question is, that's the scale up model. Try and make one thing as big as possible. How about if we make lots of things powerful, but we have more of them in China, the last year, we heard of deep seek. Deep seek was a Chinese government sponsored effort to try and come up with a. Much more cost effective way of doing the equivalent to ChatGPT. They didn't do that with bigger GPUs. They did it with much smaller GPUs, but many more of them. And that comes back to how efficient I am in deploying lots of things together. And that goes back to my earlier point about we start with scale up. Inevitably, in the industry, we go to scale out.
Trevor Freeman 40:22
And is it fair to say that the power usage per transistor, is that fairly static? Like, is there efficiencies to gain there? Or your GPU is going to use more power because you're packing more transistors into it, and once you hit that wall, that's going to be the power consumption level, is that, right?
Phil Harris 40:43
Well, this is the games that these silicon manufacturers, like Intel, AMD, Nvidia, they're all trying to figure out how to sort of figure out new and interesting ways of packaging all of the silicon in these processing units. And we've got a whole industry and science around the packaging mechanism to make those tiles, and that we now think of them as little tiles of processing power, and some that will be doing very specific jobs. Some will be doing very general jobs. It's now getting to the point where the science around the packaging of these dyes or these tiles is as much as the of the of the innovation, as the actual tiles and the processing on them. So it's an extremely complex technical problem, and we are hitting some walls here, which is why I go back to my earlier point. We're now reaching a point where is it just a technical problem we're solving, or a technical, operational and commercial problem we have to think about? And this is that wall that wall that you asked me about right at the beginning of this conversation. Are we about to hit a wall? And the answer is, yes.
Trevor Freeman 41:46
Interesting. I mean, I'm always fascinated by like, what are the what are the really smart people in the industry focusing their time on? And it's so that's why we're talking to you. Of you know, you're looking at, how do we operationalize this. How do we get the most efficient combination and structure of what we're doing here? There's folks that are looking at, how do we pack the most computing power efficiency into these specific units? I guess there's an aspect of, how do we cool this in the in the most effective way, like, what's, how do we, you know, drive down the cooling power needed? What else is out there, in terms of, like, we have smart people focused on this efficiency. What's the thing that's missing from that, that sort of list?
Phil Harris 42:36
Well, I think maybe what's going on right now. And if I could just add a, unfortunately, just one more layer of complexity. Remember said we were processing silicon? Well, the Earth's got lots of silicon, but we don't have lots of places to process that silicon. The companies that are formed to process silicon into these processing units, we call them foundries. The world's largest is TSMC, based in Taiwan. And then we have Intel, we have Samsung, we have a few others around the world. Global Foundry is another one. There is a limit, physical limit, because these foundries are huge and they take decades of development and optimization. So if we start breaking ground on a new foundry tomorrow, we'll see output in about five years. So we have a constrained supply. So if I'm if I'm Jensen at Nvidia or any of the big silicon manufacturers, I'm going to optimize that relatively constrained supply to where I'm going to get the best return on my investment. And that's why this scale up model is happening. So given that we know that we won't have any more foundry capacity of scale for another couple of years, at least, then the reality is we've got to think differently about how we're thinking about the processing of that silicon. Do I want just ever bigger processes that become more expensive, more limited in where I can deploy them. And quite frankly, the top 15 consumers in the world of silicon consume about 80% of that silicon, if not more. How do I democratize that? Again, it goes from scale up to a scale out model, where I can use that same processing capacity to produce more silicon.
Trevor Freeman 44:20
Fascinating. Yeah, I just, I took us down a little bit of a nerd out path. You had me really interested in that. Okay, so last question here, we hear this term for a bunch of different reasons. Around the world right now we're hearing this term democratizing, happening a lot, and I know you've talked about democratizing, AI, what does that mean? What does that mean to you, or describe that for us?
Phil Harris 44:48
Yeah, I think it really means. Going back to my last point about if 15 big consumers of silicon are going to consume the vast majority of verbal supply chain, that makes the. At a losing proposition for the rest of the organizations and the rest of the governments and the rest of the individuals on the planet. So how do we make sure that AI can be built both responsibly from a sustainability perspective, right? And I don't mean just the ecological side, but that's important here too, but also from the ability to I was on a panel yesterday between the UK Government and the Canadian government, where we're looking at how do countries around the world have the ability to control their own destiny? And there's this whole notion of sovereignty and AI sovereignty right now that isn't because people want to have closed walls around them, that you want to have choice. They don't want to be dictated to by very dominant players where they, quite frankly, don't have the buying power to compete. You know that the amount of capital going into some of the AI companies, we saw $30 billion going into anthropic last week. That's actually a small increase in their capitalization relative to the other big AI players on the planet. That's $30 billion so we've got to think to ourselves, is that a sustainable model commercially? And the answer is no. So we've got to have technology. We've got to have the right ability to deliver power. We've got to have the right designs of data centres that can keep them cooled in an effective and efficient and responsible way. And we've got to be able to give them enough power to make them viable, to make them useful. That's the democratization we all have to be focused on.
Trevor Freeman 46:25
And we need every, I guess, to sort of round of the point is we need everybody to be able, everybody being, you know, whatever, major industry, countries, whoever, to be able to access that equally, so that we don't have to rely on the major players out there in order to do those things you just said, gotcha.
Phil Harris 46:41
That's exactly right. And look, there'll always be a pyramid here. There always has been a technology. There's always still the big players, right? But the question is, have the big players the stifled out the ability for smaller players to come up, innovate, provide choice, provide alternative ways of looking at things, and that's what got to make sure that we keep the and this always relies on some new technology coming along that enables that. Sarah believes that we've created that next layer in the stack, if you like, of technologies that gives us that opportunity to rethink the innovation curve going forward.
Trevor Freeman 47:14
Very fascinating. Phil, thanks for your time. I really appreciate it. This has been super interesting. It's not an area that I often get to spend my time thinking about so is great to chat today. As as you know, we always kind of round out our interviews with the same series of questions to our guests. So what's a book that you've read that you think everybody should read?
Phil Harris 47:34
Well, I'm not sure I can recommend this for everybody. One of the people who basically, along the lines of some of the things I've been talking about today, who revolutionized the computer world was a gentleman by the name of Linus Torvald in Helsinki in Finland. At the time, he's now based in the States, he realized that there was a dominance around how the operating systems on computers, the things that run the software, was limiting, basically, innovation choice and forcing us down a very closed path. So he wrote something called Linux, which was a new operating system. So be on your phone, your TV, your microwave that's running Linux today. Interesting because there wasn't an operating system that we could then generally deploy. That meant there was more developers had the ability to write applications, more hardware vendors could now have software they could run on their on their platforms. He gave the world a new innovation curve. And every time this happens to my last point, good things happen. Very good things happen for the world, for every individual on the planet. And Linus was one of those individuals who saw that need. And so his book, just for fun, and he's a very quirky guy, as you can probably imagine, is a great book about his philosophical approach to what it takes to change really big problems. And I would encourage all of you just to even just read the first few chapters. It's a fascinating view of how an incredibly smart man, smart individual took on probably one of the biggest problems we had in the 20th and 21st Century of computing, and solved it by recognizing you take a different path.
Trevor Freeman 49:11
Yeah, very cool.
Phil Harris 49:12
As far as shows, um, I don't know. I'm one of these guys. I've got two 13 year old daughters. So my wife and I get to watch TV for a very limited amount of time where we can watch it, about the things we want to watch, so we tend to sort of cram things in. But I'm a huge Aaron Sorkin fan, so if I ever need something on a rainy day to go back just to think about how the world could be, I watch the West Wing. It's a show that's imaginary. It's got incredible script writing, it's got incredible character development, but it really talks about how to think about doing the right thing as well. Now, whether you agree with the politics or not, that's a different question, but just the thought that smart thinking solves big problems, again, sort of It's a bit like the Linus Torvald book. It just speaks to me about sometimes we can solve big problems. With individuals or people who just had the right way of thinking about things.
Trevor Freeman 50:00
Yeah, I think that's the kind of, you know, call it entertainment, because it is entertainment, but it's the entertainment that sticks with you, and that we go back to time and again, is the ones that we can also, like, see the the underlying philosophy, or, you know, theory of change that goes into that entertainment. And it's, it's fun to watch. It's, you know, either humorous or dramatic or whatever, but there's still that underlying message. And I think, yeah, West Wing is a great example of of that. There's a handful of those other sort of classic shows that are in that line too. A free round trip flight anywhere in the world. Where would you go?
Phil Harris 50:40
This is hard. My wife and I were talking about this the other day, and I've had the luxury of traveling just about everywhere. I think there's 15 countries on the planet I haven't been to, but if I ever want to go to one place is Bali. And there's two reasons. One, my wife and I went there for a honeymoon, and it was the beginning of the most important chapter of my life by far. And secondly, it's because it has that balance of everything. It's I love to scuba dive. I love the rainforests, the jungle, the architecture, the people, the food. It just brings everything into one package for me. And so it just again. It's those things that sort of speak to you emotionally and also intellectually. It's one of those things that I could always go back too.
Trevor Freeman 51:26
Fantastic. Who is someone that you admire?
Phil Harris 51:29
In history or today?
Trevor Freeman 51:32
You pick, anything.
Phil Harris 51:33
that's fascinating. I think historically it's under Brit it's hard not to go back to some of my forebears, or my country's forebears, Alan Turing, who, against all adversity, social, political, technical, came up with an inspirational way of thinking about solving what are deemed to be unsolvable. And again, it's a tragic story. I think we've all, if you see the movie that was made about his life, it's a very tragic story, but it's an inspirational story about how, again, if you just take a different approach to solving what seems to be an unsolvable problem, you can you get smart people together. Doesn't have to be a big army of people. I think so. Turing is one of those people that always comes back for me t think, wow, if I could have just some of his courage and some of his imagination and some of his intellect, I'd be a very happy person.
Trevor Freeman 52:29
Yeah, and it's almost, I mean, obviously, a brilliant man, but it's the willing to think in a different way, or willing to approach a problem in a different way that I mean, there's a long list in history of major turning points that are as a result of someone thinking in a different way or doing something in a different way. And I think that's a great example of it.
Phil Harris 52:49
Just about the entire course of human life are in the midpoint of the 20th century, change on that, that man's inspiration, that man's imagination.
Trevor Freeman 52:57
Yeah, and that's, that's not an understatement. That's fantastic. Okay, last question, what's something about, kind of the energy sector, or, you know, your sector that that you're really excited about, or something that you see in the future that you're really excited about?
Phil Harris 53:09
Actually, I see it now, to be honest, there are things in the future. Hey, I have two 13 year old kids. I want to have a sustainable ecology and world environment for them to live in and bring their own families up in. And I think about how we can use power more efficiently, but how we can make it look sustainability is important. I want to see renewable, sustainable energy for the general world as a thesis right now. It's how we can be much more efficient in the use of power and the right power delivery. And I think, as I said, I gave the think on example, that's incredibly exciting, because now, if we can do that at scale, that's an opportunity to do that democratization that I spoke about. So when I think about the things that really excited me about the data centre world, the world I live in, actually that power generation and power availability in a clean, effective, well managed fashion is exactly what we need right now, while the rest of us are solving these transistor problems.
Trevor Freeman 54:04
Yeah, it's, I mean, our listeners are probably going to roll their eyes, because I say this all the time, but one of the things that excites me the most is seeing like we're in a period of change, and that's a really exciting time to be working in this and I kind of hear that from you in your sector as well, and I see it in mine, in the energy sector of we're actually getting to see some of this innovation, some of these like leaps and bounds forward. That's not to say there aren't still problems. It's not to say there aren't steps backwards as well. But it's very cool to be working on this in a time when we're seeing that change, and that's kind of what I'm hearing from you as well. Indeed. Awesome. Phil, thanks so much for your time. I really appreciate it. This has been great. Chatting with you.
Phil Harris 54:42
Trevor, the pleasure is all mine. Thank you.
Trevor Freeman 54:44
Fantastic. Take care.
Phil Harris 54:46
Take care.
Trevor Freeman 54:47
Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you whether. Feedback, comments or an idea for a show or a guest, you can always reach us at [email protected].
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How are we preparing the next generation of energy professionals? Kieran Graham, student of the Sustainable and Renewable Energy Engineering program at Carleton University, is set to embark on his career in the energy sector. Kieran joins thinkenergy to chat about his studies, from thermodynamics to power generation, regulatory to economic aspects, and what's on the horizon for the industry and his future. Listen in for a fresh perspective on the future of energy with a next-gen energy professional.
Related links:
Sustainable and Renewable Energy Engineering program, Carleton University:
https://admissions.carleton.ca/programs/sustainable-and-renewable-energy-engineering/
APEX Lab, Carleton University: https://carleton.ca/apex/
Kieran Graham on LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kierangraham1/Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114
Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/enTo subscribe using Apple Podcasts:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405To subscribe using Spotify:
https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxplTo subscribe on Libsyn:
http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/-
Transcript:
Trevor Freeman 00:07
Welcome to thinkenergy, a podcast that dives into the fast, changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at think energy at hydro ottawa.com, hi everyone and welcome back. We know that we are already in this period of change that we call the energy transition, but this is not a short term thing. We will be in this period of change for years and likely decades to come. And that means that the next generation of energy professionals, so engineers, policy experts, customer focused, people, finance and so on and so on, they might spend their entire careers working on this. So I thought it would be interesting to check in with someone who's just about to enter the workforce to find out how we're preparing that next generation to dive head first into this challenge and hopefully bring innovative and exciting solutions to the table. This is a career and society defining challenge. This is something that we'll be focusing on for many, many years to come. So I really wanted to understand what is that next generation learning. Now I'm sure you'd all agree that what you learn in your formal schooling is only one small part of the knowledge base and skill set that is important for contributing in a meaningful way. I know that the things I became really excited about and passionate about as I was getting through my engineering degree really helped set my course and have led me to where I am today, and definitely was not the course I thought I was on when I started engineering school. And for the record, these things that I became really passionate exciting about weren't, you know, the fluid dynamics and soil mechanics and thermodynamics and all these courses I was taking. It was the concepts and the way of thinking and the things I became passionate about. So all that being said, I'm pretty excited today to talk to my guests about what he has been learning and how he thinks that's setting him up for a career focused on energy. Kieran Graham is in his final year of his degree at Carleton University here in Ottawa, and he's in the sustainable and renewable energy engineering program. I love the fact that we have a whole focus program on clean and renewable energy, that's fantastic. Kieran is the president of the Sustainable and Renewable Engineering Society, and he helps organize academic social and networking events for students in that program and others that are interested in sustainable and renewable energy. He has worked with the apex lab at Carleton, doing research on various carbon capture technologies, and he was also the organizer, or one of the organizers, for the 2026 Ontario Engineering Competition. Kieran Graham, welcome to the show.
Kieran Graham 02:48
Thanks a lot for having me. I'm excited.
Trevor Freeman 02:50
So Kieran, let's start with a little bit of background on your program at University. So you're in the Sustainable and Renewable Energy Engineering program at Carleton University. Tell us a little bit about what that program is and what you focus on.
Kieran Graham 03:03
Yeah, so I will admit it's a little confusing at first, like Sustainable and Renewable Energy Engineering, the long name, and then we have two streams. So one's called Smart Technologies for Power Generation Distribution, the other one's about efficient energy conversion. So the easiest way to actually differentiate these two is electrical and mechanical. So smart technologies is electrical efficient conversion is a more mechanical. So like, if you have know anything about engineering disciplines, it's electrical and mechanical.
Trevor Freeman 03:35
Gotcha
Kieran Graham 03:36
Also, by the way, SREE is short form for sustainable renewable energy engineering, just to save us some fumbling over our words, in the future, perfect.
Trevor Freeman 03:45
This is a very acronym heavy podcast at time, so I appreciate you spelling that out for us. So when we when we hear SREE, you're talking about the program, gotcha. So give us an idea of, like, what's the focus of the program more broadly?
Kieran Graham 03:58
Yeah, so like, I'm in the electrical stream. So I take a lot of different courses at the beginning, ranging from fluid mechanics, and we take electrical courses like circuits and signals and just Electronics One. But then we also later take courses that are more SREE specific, that are more focused on learning how we are using thermodynamics to then put it through as a turbine and then create that energy. And then, how is it work, specifically with a nuclear power plant, or we even learn a little bit about natural gas, but just for context. And then, how does that differ from generating electricity with wind in a wind turbine. It's pretty similar, but like, how where's the difference? And like, how do we apply that in different scenarios?
Trevor Freeman 04:48
Got you so if I could say that back to you. You know, when I was in energy or engineering school, I learned a lot about those fundamentals. I learned, we know, we did thermodynamics, we did all that kind. Of stuff we just mentioned, but the application to power generation, and the renewable aspect of it, the sustainability side, that was all stuff I learned later in my career. You're building that into your programs. Kind of built that into what you're learning. So you're learning the more traditional engineering side of things, the thermodynamics and how this stuff works, but in the context of power generation, I assume, you know, like application of power generation, like how the grid works, things like that.
Kieran Graham 05:28
Yeah, exactly. So we take a little bits of courses that other programs will take, and then I got, first we're taking those same courses, and then we take other courses that are really specific, and we apply them to sustainable and renewable energy engineering. The other thing is, later in our degree, we also apply things on a more higher level, like energy is kind of like a high level topic. There's so many things that are happening and there's a lot of regulatory and economic aspects to it. So we have to look at, like, the energy market and like, yes, like nuclear fusion is like a great option if it works and if it's economically viable. And you know, nuclear has its own regulatory aspect, so we have that coverage of information and knowledge later in the years.
Trevor Freeman 06:17
Gotcha so. And for our listeners out there who are not kind of engineering nerds like Kieran and I. One of the things how I describe engineering more broadly is that it's sort of a systems thinking approach to things. So understanding, what are my inputs? What's the result of those inputs? What does that mean for the output? What are the feedback loops? And so what I'm hearing you say, Kieran, is that it's bringing that into the energy sector, the energy industry, which is fantastic, like, really exciting to hear that this is, this is what you're learning, and this is what the next sort of generation of engineers is being taught right now. How did you end up in this program? What drew you to this particular field of engineering?
Kieran Graham 07:01
Yeah, so it's a little complicated, because when I applied to university, I knew I wanted to stay in Ottawa, and my parents both went to Carleton. My grandpa worked at Carleton like when it was first established, so I had deep roots there. And in my mind, Carleton is a superior University in Ottawa. I know that's controversial, but, you know, it's okay. But anyways, I applied to three different engineerings at Carleton, and my first choice was actually aerospace engineering, because in high school, it was kind of like a this was the prestige of making aerospace engineering. And I actually got in and my first year I was in aerospace engineering, but at Carleton, first year, engineering is all general. So after first year, I decided that my goals, and I don't want to talk down to my aerospace colleagues, but my morals and my aspirations were more set towards a sustainable and renewable energy engineering focus. So sustainable renewable energy engineering was my second choice going into Carleton, so it's a pretty easy switch in second year, but from my childhood, I had an aunt who worked for Greenpeace Canada and also just learning about sustainability in my house and at school, this just seemed like a natural, good choice.
Trevor Freeman 08:28
My journey, and we won't get into the details of my journey, but it echoes that a lot of kind of having an idea going into engineering school and at some point, realizing that maybe this doesn't line up with my values, or what I want to do, the impact that I want to have. And that kind of gets into my next question of, you know, generally, the engineering profession is built around having an impact, a positive impact on society, on people, and using a, like I said, systems thinking approach to that. That's sort of the bar that we try and live up to. So, you know, you talked about wanting to have an impact. What does that impact me? Or what is having a positive impact mean for you, and how do you see yourself contributing as you're nearing the end of your education, at least formal education side of your undergrad?
Kieran Graham 09:14
Yeah, so I actually just took my engineering professional practices course, which I learned about the code of ethics and how the engineers duty is paramount to serving the public. And I think that actually really resonated with me as much as you know, the course is a lot of just talking about regulatory stuff, it actually was refreshing and good to hear that that's like the regulatory view on what engineering should be, because my personal goals are very much to have a positive and strong impact on society, and specifically like my local community. You know, my family's deeply rooted in Ottawa, so I want to have a good, positive impact. Impact on Ottawa. So I guess when I switched from aerospace to sustainable energy, I decided that, like, there's a climate crisis right now, and I just saw the opportunity to create a large positive impact within engineering, which I was really enjoying and helped solve those problems of having that net zero or clean energy solution, which was being so, like, stressed upon within, like, my whole life,
Trevor Freeman 10:31
That's great, yeah. I mean, it's, it's definitely, in my opinion, and I think this has been echoed a lot on this podcast, is, you know, the energy transition, the climate crisis, and sort of our reaction to that is definitely, the defining challenge of our of our time right now, and certainly, certainly your career, probably moving forward in this field. So looking at the energy transition, what skills or knowledge do you think you've developed throughout the last couple of years in your undergrad that have prepared you to contribute to this. You know, rapidly changing industry that the electricity sector, the energy sector of today is not the same as it was five years ago, and it won't be the same in five years. So coming into it at this point, what do you think you're bringing to the table that's going to help contribute to that?
Kieran Graham 11:23
Yeah. So, I mean, it's the whole point of the program. And you know, people running, I'll shout out Ahmed Abdullah, a professor who's really been heading the SREE program. And so the, really, the big goal of SREE is like to be multidisciplinary, and being able to approach all the different aspects of this climate crisis and energy transition. You need to be able to understand how, like, I said, like the mechanical thermodynamics and fluid dynamics work, but also understand how a electric generator works, and then how transmission works, and need to understand, like, what's the point of creating solar in the desert, if you have to then transfer it all the way to, I don't know, somewhere in Europe, or something like, those are the large scale aspects that you need to be able to understand. The other thing that's also really important is just having the knowledge of understanding how like load profiles work and how data analysis and understanding like this is what a good load profile looks like. This is a problem like the duck curve or problems like this, like that, we as three engineers really understand, like how these different problems are created, and then how we can fix them and where they're being affected, like the duck curve in California, and like in Canada, we have a winter peaking system. Like all these problems are different, different aspects that we are very knowledgeable on and already have a base understanding of. And I think that's what's really important and helpful going into this industry.
Trevor Freeman 13:04
Yeah, that's great. Has there been a time during your program, during your undergrad, or a project that you've worked on that has really kind of changed the way you view energy or the electricity grid, or open your eyes to something that you weren't aware of before, really kind of, yeah, drove your passion for it?
Kieran Graham 13:27
Yeah, so, you know, there's been many problems and projects that I've had throughout my degree, and you know, the view and impact on my motivation has been very hopeful and very doubtful in equal amounts. But I would say maybe more helpful hopeful in the in the future, just because sometimes in school, things get a little stressful and blow up in proportion. But I'd say my biggest hopeful, I guess, and changing my my view of things would be my capstone project. So the capstone project that I'm working on currently is focusing on a net zero 2050 Ottawa. And how are we going to prepare for that? How are we going to handle the generation for that? How are we going to get energy places? How are we going to handle the winter peaks of electrifying, heating. How are we going to deal with EVs? It's a never ending puzzle slash scavenger hunt of finding data and how do things work together? How do we piece it together? Yeah, it's been a great challenge, but also really opened my eyes up to how all these, these different sectors that I've been learning about in my degree, how do these all work fit together and solve a problem.
Trevor Freeman 14:52
Great, yeah, and that's exactly where I want to go next. So, so I'm glad you brought up your capstone project. Just a quick backgrounder for our listeners. A part of an engineering undergrad in Ontario, at least, I think across Canada, is a final year project which is known as the capstone project. So the idea of the capstone project is it's supposed to be a culmination of all the different sort of theoretical things you've learned in your degree, bringing all that knowledge together and giving the students a chance to apply that in some real world scenarios. So, you know, it's interesting, Kieran, to know that your capstone was looking at what does a net zero 2050 reality look like for the City of Ottawa? Because the City of Ottawa has a 2050 Net Zero target, 2040 actually, for the corporation of the City of Ottawa, and 2050 for the community. And there's, there's lots of moving parts to that. It's a real world thing that's happening that a lot of folks are working on. So I'd like to dig into that a little bit more with you and find out. And I know you're not quite finished it yet, so you're not going to have all the answers, but you know what? What are some of the things that you're looking at? What are some of the must do's for us as society and us as a city and all the stakeholders involved if we're going to to achieve that net zero reality?
Speaker 1 16:17
Yeah, so we are a group of, I think, 18 or 19 different undergraduates for all, hopefully graduating at the end of the semester. And so this project is happens every year for the past, like four or five years, I think, and we're the third year focusing on Ottawa. So there's been a lot of things covered. And honestly, at the beginning of the project, we were like, how could we possibly have a third year of material to study? And I think now that we're approaching the final we're realizing how much there is to look at, and maybe we'll have some notes for next year saying, like, there really is a million things that we could look at in this scope. Like, it's just a really big scope, but we have, like, a buildings team, an energy storage team, a nuclear team, a solar team, and a transportation team, and I'm on the integration team, so my job is really just trying to put things together from all the different sub teams who are focusing on very specific things, and Specifically I'm the integration team lead. So I'm focusing on load prediction. So like, in 2050 what's the load that we're going to need to have? And that really, including working with transportation and buildings and understanding how, like, the EVS and the heat pumps and electrified heating are we going to have district heating, like, how is all this going to affect our 2050 load.
Trevor Freeman 17:46
And so what are some of those strategies? Like, the things you mentioned are bang on. That's of course, the things that are going to drive our demand. Are you looking at providing that additional capacity? You know, with local generation, what's the what's the strategy there? How do we have enough energy and have enough clean energy in order to meet that growing demand that you've identified?
Kieran Graham 18:10
Yeah, so that's like the big problem, right? So I'm doing load prediction, and then we have teams like nuclear and solar. And past years we've had wind teams, and I think there was a biofuels team as well past years, and we put all this data, kind of on two sides, and then we feed it through an optimization software that someone is working on in my team, and it's going to look at economically, how competitive something like solar or nuclear or wind or hydro, I guess would be looking within Ottawa like, how do all these compare? And it's all really about economics. When you're looking at it like, which is feasible because there's lots of cool technologies, like I mentioned earlier, but it's optimizing for cost, and then we're finding a low profile, and then ultimately, we want to run it through a software called eTap, which basically is like a digital twin for looking at energy load flow analysis and making sure the grid can actually handle this 2050 load.
Trevor Freeman 19:16
And so you've identified kind of the technology challenges and solutions. I'm glad to hear you talk about like, you know, the economics have to make sense. Of course, there are technologies out there that, yeah, if there was unlimited resources, it would solve our problems. What about the sort of, I guess there's sort of two streams here. There's the regulatory, or let's call it the political side, the enabling aspects of, how do we get this technology that makes sense and has a business case? How do we get that deployed, more deployed faster, you know, more broadly, how do we do that? Did you look at the sort of regulatory, political side of things?
Kieran Graham 19:56
Yeah, so in our capstone, we don't necessarily look. At it super specifically, like we're not necessarily looking at how regulations would affect it, but it's more we're going to be looking at scenarios of, if we have 100 per cent EV adoption in 2050 what is the load going to look like? But you know, the changing of the federal EV mandate, how is that going to look at change the load projection, and then, how is that going to affect our generation? Like, what do we like if we have huge peaks our nuclear teams generation, which won't necessarily be able to ramp as fast as something like a battery storage or or like a hydro dam, or something like these. These are the complications that we're looking at, not necessarily super focused on regulation, but keeping it as like a guiding prospect of, should we be considering 100 per cent EVs, like, is that really a realistic goal for 2015 at this point?
Trevor Freeman 20:59
Yeah. And I guess it's kind of the same thing. And so maybe the answer is similar, but it's this the societal side of things too. And so yeah, like, from a technology perspective, it would be great if we hit that 100 per cent EV coverage by 2050, if not sooner. We know that that's a big source of emissions. It'd be great if we could do sort of like mass heat pump deployment. But at the end of the day, people, you know, we're relying on individuals within our society to make those decisions, and so one aspect of this is, how do we help that be the right decision? And how do we help people want to do this? Because it is the smarter choices. Has that conversation come into the project, and it's okay if it hasn't, I know there's obviously a limited scope of the project. Scope of the project, but is that something that you guys are talking through?
Kieran Graham 21:52
Yeah, I think that's something that we are always like talking about as, like a bunch of young engineers who are really looking to understand the industry. And, you know, making sure these things actually happen is always kind of on our mind, like, what's the point of us doing all this work? And, you know, stressing ourselves till two and two in the morning getting our work done or getting ready for a presentation. It's like, why are we doing all of this? I think you know, the aspect of community involvement and the regulatory and making it make sense is part of our job. Like, yes, that maybe our focus isn't necessarily on making it all make sense for the public, but it's, it's something that we have to consider. Like, if it's not economically and like socially viable, then isn't there's no there's no point. Like, it's just not, not a proper engineering solution. So I think ultimately, it's not something that we're focusing on, but something that we talk about all the time, that like, like we go to community events and kind of learn about what people's like outlooks are on, on all these different problems. And would people be okay with having battery systems and solar systems on their house, and would they be okay with using those, as you know, distributed energy resources that can feed back to the grid? Would people be okay with bi directional charging on their EVs like these are big batteries that could be used for different things. Like these aren't necessarily direct considerations of our capstone, but something that we keep in mind when we're trying to create a solution.
Trevor Freeman 23:26
Yeah, great. And I'm glad to hear you say that, and I'm glad it's part of the conversation. It's certainly, it's certainly a huge aspect of how we actually deploy these strategies and solutions and how we develop them. It's a big part of you know what I get to do at Hydro Ottawa, being on the customer side of things, is listening to our customers and understanding what their realities are, and trying to find ways of okay, well, how does that match up with programs or opportunities that we have to be able to run. So really glad to hear that you're talking through that the challenge of decarbonizing our energy mix. So going from sort of like fossil fuel combustion energy generation to a cleaner solution is really only one challenge that's facing the energy sector. I'm sure you're aware, you've brought up things that are causing an increase in demand, but we're also seeing, you know, non-climate related drivers of increased energy demand. So I'm thinking about, like, AI proliferation and data center growth and all these things. Is that part of the calculus that goes into your project. Are you thinking of, how do we also meet this growing energy demand for non-climate related reasons?
Kieran Graham 24:48
Yeah. I mean, you know, understanding the energy mix, and you know, the load for the future is really difficult, and I know that's my whole job, but you know, if I had an A plus answer, I. Wouldn't have to worry about capstone for the next couple of months. But you know, all these considerations I'm thinking about, so like when I'm getting buildings data from the commercial sector and the residential sector, industry is not very big in Ottawa as an electrical load, at least, but I need to look at that for load prediction, because maybe industry load is going to increase with data center, like, where does that fall under the data the energy split, I know like Kanata Tech Center, like, that's going to be growing, and that's a big energy load, and I know it's a big stress on distribution systems, and the feeders over there struggling, and I know Hydro Ottawa is planning to upgrade those locations. But how can we maybe predict that, like data center or data center like load in Canada, that? How can we deal with that in different way, like adding a battery system over there, or maybe generation closer to there, which just stress the overall grid less.
Trevor Freeman 26:05
Yeah, I think it's in, you know, for our non-Ottawa listeners, Kanata is a part of the city that has a high concentration of, sort of the high tech sector. It's, it's certainly a growing area in Ottawa, and one of our constrained areas on the grid that we're investing in and bringing a lot additional capacity to in the coming years. So those challenges that you identified, how do we deal with, not only this energy transition from a clean technology perspective, but also a changing economic demographics like we're seeing more investment in these areas, and how do we make sure that we're keeping up. So yeah, that's definitely, definitely a part of it. So one of the goals of the podcast is definitely to make sure the message is clear that the energy transition is not something of the future. It's not something that will happen eventually. We're in it right now. We're seeing the change to our to the way we use energy, and the way we produce energy and move and store and all those things. So is there something that's happening now, you know, within the energy space that you're particularly excited about that you've, you've kind of learned about in the last little while that you want to get involved in when you when you graduate?
Kieran Graham 27:16
Yeah, so my whole degree is about this. So there's so many different aspects that I could talk about in that I'm interested in. And specifically to my capstone, machine learning is a big field in pretty much anything like machine learning and AI will be involved in any sort of capacity, in any industry. I'm sure. The problem with my specific application is I'm trying to predict 2050, load, and our load for the past few years hasn't really been increasing. Due to efficiency, and there was covid and different aspects like that. And so how do we apply that, and what, what kind of way is really interesting. But another thing that I'm really interested in is virtual power plants and stuff like micro grids. And how does all these, these little DERs and non-wire solutions, how do all these these work together? And how can we, like as a community, work with our So, like solar on our houses, or battery systems in our houses, our EVs, our bidirectional charging, as I mentioned earlier, like how, how could these technologies work together to really reduce the stress on the distribution system for you guys at Hydro Ottawa? And how could everything work together? And you see it happening in California. It's like being tested. If I think Ottawa would just be a great place for this, because of the nature of everyone having cars and everything's everyone has big, pretty big houses. We can have solar on our roofs, like, yes, we have a winter but which has less sunlight, but solar is still incredibly viable and useful. So how can all of this work together and become a virtual power plant that one house has energy and you know, the generations not able to keep up, or the distribution system is failing for whatever reason, you can rely on a community which has battery systems or generation systems just locally. How can we use that to then power each other's houses? I think that's really cool, a future thing that really looking forward to.
Trevor Freeman 29:26
Yeah, it's, it's definitely something that gets talked a lot about, and, you know, in the industry in general, but even, you know, at Hydro Ottawa, looking at, how do we leverage, you know, this is what you're talking about. How do we leverage customer owned devices, customer equipment, to help manage grid capacity needs. So if we're in a time of increased demand on the grid, how do we make calls out to people that have batteries, people that have EVs, that are plugged in, people that have smart devices in their home, and say, Hey, we need a little bit of capacity. We're going to ask you to draw from your battery instead of the grid, or we're going to ask you to pause your EV charging, or turn your thermostat down a degree in order to generate that capacity on the grid. And it's, it's not even so much, you know, it's, it's not that the grid is failing and able to keep up. It's otherwise we would have to build a much bigger grid. We'd have to invest more in the grid. This lets us be more efficient with how we invest in the grid and how we build out so we can sort of not over build, which traditionally what we do is we kind of build the worst case scenario. What? What would we do if that worst case scenario wasn't as bad, if we could pull on these, these other customer owned equipment? So yeah, very cool concept, and definitely something that we're looking at here at Hydro Ottawa, and have a couple pilots coming up on that.
Kieran Graham 30:53
Yeah. And I just wanted to say, like earlier, you're mentioning, like, how do we work on, how do we solve these solutions of net zero within a community, I just think, like the adoption and community incentives and how do we work together? Like, these are the solutions. These are, these are the things that if we as a community decide to do, it's just a very viable thing. It's just we need to be able to work together as a community to be able to do it.
Trevor Freeman 31:22
Yeah, so, you know, we've been talking a little bit about a different approach to energy and that community approach. I really like that based on on what you know from your studies and your experience in this area. What do you think the utility of the future looks like, like? What does that look like to you? What is the role of the utility moving forward?
Kieran Graham 31:47
Yeah, so it's a hard question, because obviously, there's so many things that could happen. And you know, like I was saying, predicting the future is very hard, and I can't just, can't just use machine learning. It's not a pattern. It's not like something that's going to be super predictable. But I do think like the idea of micro grids and working together and distributed energy resources, like all these things are going to be needed to be able to work together. So there's going to be so many little systems and organization, and the utility was going to be the person, kind of, like a mini IESO, I guess, like, how, like, you're going to be controlling, or not necessarily controlling, but organizing. Who's going to be using their DERs, like, which areas are going to need more solar deployment? Where can we integrate vehicle to grid charging? Where can we add more charging infrastructure for communities? Where can we put, like, community batteries, like, more of like an organizer of even smaller systems within the community. I think that's just the nature of technology is going to be, come more complicated, but we're also going to become more proficient and be able to organize those things. So, yeah, I guess that's, that's what I view the future of utilities.
Trevor Freeman 33:17
Yeah, it's, it's a little bit, you know, lots of, lots of, lots of concepts. There it's, it's getting a little bit closer to the end user when it when we look at, how do we operate the grid? So right now, you brought up the IESO, that's our Independent Electricity System Operator who operates on the provincial level. I think the future is that that that level of operation gets a little bit closer to the end user, and that the local distribution companies like Hydro Ottawa have more control to identify where does the grid need extra capacity? Where does it have capacity that we can shift? And that's all happening at the same time as technology is giving us more insight into that. We're having we're going to have more understanding of what's happening down at that granular level. So we're going to be able to make these calls a little bit better. So, yeah, I think, I think you're on the right track. I think that's, that's where we're going. We're going to more of a bidirectional flow of energy, a little bit more closer to the end user control over how the grid is operated.
Kieran Graham 34:20
Yeah, and in our classes, we learn about, like in Europe, how they have bidirectional charging and generation. In like Germany, people have solar panels on their balconies everywhere, and it the solar penetration like Germany, a lot of parts of Germany are on the same latitude as us. So it's like, it's not infeasible for like Ottawa, to have solar everywhere and have that be part of the grid, and not just for your own benefit or anything like that. Like, it's a, it's a real possibility.
Trevor Freeman 34:51
Yeah, yeah. I think there's, there's lots of things that we can do to really improve, to really leverage the devices that are out there, to leverage. Opportunities that we have in front of us. So, Kieran, as we kind of get close to the end of our conversation here, are there any words of wisdom that you'd like to share? You know, you're kind of at the end of the beginning of your career journey. Here, you're almost done your undergrad, about to take whatever next steps there are, that's, you know, starting your career or further education. What about you know someone who's maybe at the start of that part of their journey? You know someone that's thinking about wanting to get involved in the energy transition, maybe wanting a career in that space. What words of wisdom would you provide?
Kieran Graham 35:35
Yeah, so I mean, there's plenty of things I would recommend, you know, for young students, and for people similar approaching my situation, I think the biggest thing is just like networking and creating communities. Like, if you're a new student going into school, like, be part of socials. Be part of engineering societies, and or not engineering societies even like you can just any sort of club or sports team, or just have a community of people that you can really rely on to, like, if you're struggling with an assignment or a topic or a certain class, just like, have someone to be able to talk to talk through like that topic, and ultimately, like those connections who are helping you out with things Like, it'll go back, and they'll be like, Hey, do you understand this? You can get help them. And then you have a friendship, you have a connection, you have someone who's maybe going to work in a field that, like, in the future, you'll be able to leverage to get a job. Like, I have people who, you know, I helped in, or probably they helped me more because they were in older years, and they are working at different industries, and I can now talk to them and be like, hey, like, how do you like your new job now that you're in the workforce, and do you have any opportunities that I can, I could look into working for? So really creating that network of people who can help you out with those things, like you don't have to do it alone, and it really just opens your eyes and allows you to have really good conversations and prepare you for the future.
Trevor Freeman 37:08
Yeah, so if I could, if I could just build on that, it's the importance of creating those connections in that community is great for your own learning, your own knowledge, but also for solving problems, like, no problem is solved by a single discipline or a single focus. You know, it's great that you're learning all these tools in your engineering degree, but you know, real problems get solved by a mix of, you know, the engineer folks, the finance folks, the customer side of things, the, you know, societal side of things. So really great advice. Thanks for sharing that with us. So Kieran, we always end our interviews with a series of questions that I ask to all our guests, so I'll dive right into those. What is a book that you've read that you think everyone should read?
Kieran Graham 37:56
Yeah, so a lot of my reading has been textbooks recently, but I think when I have the time I read a lot of dystopian, so I'll say Fahrenheit 451, even though it's a pretty common one, but it's just really good and really relevant to things.
Trevor Freeman 38:10
So yeah, definitely one of those classics that's important for everyone to read or at least be aware of. So same question, but for a movie or a show, what's one that you would recommend everybody?
Kieran Graham 38:21
Yeah, there's plenty of good shows those are a little bit easier to find some time and brain power for, but big Star Wars fan, so I'm going to say Andor, just a really good show, really relevant, really love that show.
Trevor Freeman 38:34
Yeah, fantastic. I agree. And I just so my oldest kid is 12, and I've just got him starting to watch that one. So it's a great. If someone offered you a free round trip flight anywhere in the world, where would you go?
Kieran Graham 38:49
Yeah, another really hard question. I'm going to Peru right after I graduate. So if you guys wanted to pay for that, that would be great.
Trevor Freeman 38:56
It's not an offer. Just to be clear.
Kieran Graham 38:58
No, I know. I would just say, like, maybe I really have been seeing these videos about Kyrgyzstan, like the those, like East Asian or, guess, Western Asia countries like Kyrgyzstan would be really cool.
Trevor Freeman 39:17
Cool. Yeah, very neat. Who's someone that you admire?
Kieran Graham 39:20
Yeah, so I admire plenty of people. I think I'm going to say my grandpa, though. I've always looked up to him and like how he lives his life, and, you know, he's funny, and just like, has really good values. And I think he's just someone who I ultimately, as a person, look up to. And you know, he worked at Carlton, so I don't know it's just like, the future of like, where I would like to see myself.
Trevor Freeman 39:48
Great. Yeah, great answer. And finally, what's something that you're really excited about when it comes to the energy sector, its future, and you have the benefit of being at the very beginning of your career, you get to get involved in this. So what's something you're excited about?
Kieran Graham 39:59
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, I said earlier, like, there's plenty of things, but I'll say virtual power plants again. Like, if we could create a community where we have DERs and are working together micro grids and all of this, like, that would be so amazing. It'd be so cool. So I think that's going to be, that's my thing. I'm super excited for.
Trevor Freeman 40:21
Very cool well, I'm very excited to see you get involved in that, and thanks for your time today. Kieran, it's great to chat with you. It's great to get some insight into kind of what the next generation of engineers are learning and really looking forward to, kind of seeing where you land in short order here and what your career starts to look like. So thanks very much.
Kieran Graham 40:41
Awesome. Thank you very much.
Trevor Freeman 40:43
Take care. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback, comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at [email protected].
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Trees are a major cause of power outages. They're also a wildfire risk—when branches hit a conductor, a small spark can become a big blaze. Lynn Petesch of Overstory joins thinkenergy to talk trees, exploring how AI, satellite imagery, and vegetation intelligence help utilities prevent outages and reduce wildfire threats. Including Hydro Ottawa, who saw a 44% drop in tree-related outages since partnering with Overstory. Listen in for how we work together to keep the grid safe in an era of extreme weather.
Related links
Overstory: https://www.overstory.com/
Lynn Petesch on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lynnpetesch/
Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114
Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en
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Transcript:
Welcome to thinkenergy, a podcast that dives into the fast, changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at [email protected], Hi everyone. Welcome back. Today on thinkenergy, we're going to be talking about trees. Yes, you heard that correctly. Trees. I know this is a show about energy, but there's actually a very real connection between our electricity grid and those slow growing, majestic givers of shade, lumber, fruit and so many more benefits. Honestly, who doesn't love trees? But I'm not just kicking this episode off in my capacity as a tree hugger. Let's take a look at this through a utility lens, and I will use Hydro Ottawa as an example. Hydro Ottawa service territory includes some very rural and very forested areas. Even our urban territory has a fairly extensive tree canopy. As a result, Hydro Ottawa trims about 60,000 trees each year. Why? Because trees contracting power infrastructure is a big problem. Tree interference remains a leading cause of power outages for us. Strong winds force them onto our wires. Heavy snow or freezing rain builds up and weighs down branches, breaks limbs, and increases the risk that part of a tree may touch a line, and in some extreme cases, heavy storms can even send trees or branches crashing into our poles, damaging the poles. The struggle between power lines and trees, which, again, don't get me wrong, we all love trees, has been going on for years. There is a constant struggle between trimming enough and getting the right trees trimmed and maintaining as much tree coverage as we can. In 2022 we identified a disruptor in this dance, the solution came through a partnership with Overstory, a company that uses satellite imagery, infrared technology and artificial intelligence to help utilities manage vegetation and trim trees more efficiently. And the timing could not have been better. Just days after we started working with Overstory in the spring of 2022 the derecho hit Ottawa. Our Ottawa based listeners will remember this storm well. It was monumental in the history of our city, and indeed for us as utility, winds reached 190 kilometers an hour. For our non-metric listeners, that's nearly 120 miles per hour. The storm ripped through poles houses and cause considerable damage to our city's urban forests. Overstory played a crucial role during the cleanup and in helping us level up our vegetation management strategies moving forward, we realized that the insights we got from Overstory would help improve our proactive approach to tree encroachment and hazard identification, and this is essential in this era of extreme weather events. We know that climate change is causing more frequent and more extreme weather events. According to Climate Central, the number of weather related power outages in the United States increased by 78% between 2011 and 2021 and severe weather accounted for over 1000 outages across Nova Scotia just in the year of 2024 we want to keep you connected during these heavy storms, and that's why we're looking to organizations like Overstory. So what does Overstory do to help us keep the lights on? Well, without giving away too much, because we're going to get into the details shortly, Overstory through a detailed analysis of the scans they do of our entire grid, identifies high risk areas, which we can then prioritize and better focus our resources when it comes to vegetation management, this level of monitoring and focus reduces the risk of trees from coming into contact with our poles and disrupting Your connection to the grid, the results speak for themselves. Since partnering with Overstory, we've reduced vegetation related outages by 44% and that's only part of the story, as we'll discuss further, Overstory also plays a crucial role in helping utilities prevent wildfires in high risk areas across North America, similar to extreme weather, wildfire frequency and intensity is also increasing, in part due to climate change expanding cities and many other factors. And when wildfires do happen, these stories are heartbreaking. What many people don't realize is that lots of wildfires are sparked by trees making contact with power lines, and that is why Overstory plays a key role in tagging areas where those fires are most likely to ignite and spread, making it easier for utilities to prioritize trimming work and vegetation management in those areas. To dive more into how Overstory is helping us here at Hydro Ottawa and. And other utilities helping us identify and act to mitigate risk associated with vegetation. I'm really excited to have Lynn Petesch on the show today. Lynn is Overstory's, Head of Customer Success, and has spent the past 10 years building customer facing teams with a specific focus on technologies that tackle the climate crisis. She began her career working for the United Nations and the diplomatic service of her home country, Luxembourg, before moving into the tech sector to really work in environments where she could drive impact more quickly and at greater scale. Lynn Petesch, welcome to the show.
Lynn Petesch 05:34
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Trevor Freeman 05:36
Okay, so let's start at the very top with a high level look at what Overstory does and how the organization came to be.
Lynn Petesch 05:45
Yeah, let me tell you about Overstory. I mean, we are a vegetation intelligence platform. We use remote sensing and AI to give electric utilities, including Hydro Ottawa and others, a clear, system wide view of their risk. They always do it because they want to address three things, or sometimes more, but kind of, there's always a few goal posts, and it's either improving reliability, reducing wildfire risk, if that is if they're in an area where there is a concern, and or improving operational efficiencies. So Overstory very much becomes a decision-making tool for their programs were used mostly by the vegetation management people, operations people, wildfire mitigation teams, and they each time they want to either use a program that exists, prioritize it, reshape their work. They might be preparing for storm. They might be working on a wildfire mitigation risk so the company, more broadly, was founded in 2018 by Anniek Schouten and Indra den Bakker. This was back in the Netherlands, and they were leveraging, or getting really interested in satellite imagery, and were very initially using it for deforestation purposes. So, the climate resilience DNA has always been with us. But like any startup, we were looking at that kind of target audience that was most interested in what we had to offer. And pretty quickly, we landed on the electric utilities. They had the most pressing need to use remote sensing at scale to solve very big problems, honestly. And so we pivoted into that space of electric utilities, and then in 2020 Fiona Spruill, who's our CEO right now, she joined us. She shaped the company into what it is today, and that is really around building safer and more reliable operations.
Trevor Freeman 07:33
That's great, and I want to dive into some of the details. Our listeners will know that we talk a lot about grid modernization here and talk a lot about better intelligence of what's happening on the grid in all aspects, and something we haven't really talked about, and I'm excited to talk to you about today is the sort of vegetation management side of it. So really excited to get into the details. But before we do that, I'm always really curious to understand, you know, the people behind the conversations. How did you get into this area of, you know, high tech vegetation management? I touched a little bit on your bio in the intro, but give us a sense of, you know, how did Lynn come to be in the space that you're in right now?
Lynn Petesch 08:12
Yeah, I wouldn't say I grew up thinking I was going to work in this space, but I love working in it now. So actually, right out of college, I went to work for the United Nations, but then in the last 15 years, I started working at high growth tech companies, startups, and I've always been focused on leading and building CS operations, which is basically the customer success teams. They're the ones that are in front of the customers, implementing these software programs, kind of working very closely with customer solving problems. And about four years ago, I decided that I did want to focus the rest of my career on solving the climate crisis more broadly. And I remember very clearly that I came across Overstory. And there was two things that really resonated with me. One was hearing that utility caused wildfires could be as thing of the past, like they are preventable. And the other thing was learning about this world where vegetation is the biggest cause of outages, which is, you know, I did not know before. And so I think, you know, having these very clear goals is very compelling to kind of work on something where it's so easy to understand what the big problems are. So I joined Overstory, and for the last couple of years, I've been building a team that gets really deeply embedded in these utilities, specifically with the vegetation management and the WiFi mitigation teams. And we work on their programs. We understand their programs, we help them reshape their programs. We roll out, obviously, the software element that is Overstory. It's been very fun and rewarding work
Trevor Freeman 09:40
That's great. And I really love, you know, talking to people from a variety of areas that they touch on climate change and the climate crisis. And I think there's a bunch of us who share that passion of wanting to do something. I spoke with a group of you know, recent grads about what is a green. In career. What is it? What does a career in climate change look like? And really it looks like whatever you want it to look like. There are so many aspects that touch on this. So kind of neat to hear how that was your passion, and then you figured out where it made sense for you to enter into the climate sphere. So that's great.
Lynn Petesch 10:15
Yeah, I guess when I was young, I thought you had to be a scientist to work on time, yeah. And I think now anyone can find an angle on how to contribute to it. And I think it needs everyone to help contribute.
Trevor Freeman 10:24
Yeah, any job can be a green job if you care about it and if you make it that okay. So let's get back to Overstory. Tell us a little bit about the evolution of the company. You talked about it kind of founding about seven years ago. Tell us how it's evolved and progressed over those seven years.
Lynn Petesch 10:41
Yeah, so when we started working with utilities, I think at that point, everyone was kind of assessing whether satellites could be kind of good use case for analyzing vegetation. We're now talking about 30 centimeter imagery. So the resolution of satellites has become incredible. You can really see branches. You can detect species of trees. You can see if they're healthy or not. So initially, that was kind of our m-o we really were the leading provider to find out, where are the trees, how close are they, in terms of proximity to your network, so to the conductor, which is the risk. You know, we're looking at the terrain. If you're looking in the mountains and in Colorado, you have very different terrain than maybe in Ottawa. So detecting tree species has been really interesting, detecting the health of trees, how that decline is furthering. A lot of utilities are experiencing a lot of tree decline die off right now. So that was how we started. And then we started working with the really big utilities. And you had to think about this problem at scale. Now, we might be scanning with satellites, hundreds, 10s of 1000s of miles at a time, and some of these utilities, they might have 1000s, if not 10s of 1000s, of trees that could pose a risk to their network. They might have had a really big, large weather event, a storm that knocked over some of their system. So at that point, it all becomes about that decisioning tool. Everything starts becoming a prioritization, and I think that's now where we're really leaning into is making not just surfacing the data, but making it very actionable. Utilities have a lot to deal with. They deal with very tight budgets, they deal with crew constraints. They might have an aging workforce, their regulatory pressure, they're really vulnerable to storms. Increasingly, there's a lot of wildfire exposure. So everything becomes a decision of, where should I focus my intention? Where can I get the biggest bang for my buck? What should I do? What should I not focus on? And that decisioning is where we really want to be a key player in.
Trevor Freeman 12:44
Absolutely. And looking forward, I know I'm kind of we're jumping the gun here. We haven't gotten into the details of what you do. But looking forward, what is your vision for, kind of the future of this space and how it's going to continue to evolve? Are you mature as a company yet, or as a sector, or is it still a lot of growth to happen?
Lynn Petesch 13:01
Yeah, I think vast majority utilities are now leveraging remote sensing. It could be lighter, it could be drones, it could be satellites. So that has become a pretty established tooling within the sector. I think what our vision really is, is providing utilities that shared resilience, first picture of risk. So you know, we imagine a world where you can, kind of like, see the emerging risks, and you can start becoming proactive. Being proactive in the space of vegetation management has been really challenging. You never know where the next tree is going to fall. And over the last couple of years, customers suddenly have access to this risk across their territory so that they can start being proactive about it. As a matter of fact, that was a key use case, also with the team at Hydro Ottawa, is to start launching these proactive programs. And I think when we think about it, we get very excited about the world in which anyone from the field crews to the vegetation managers to the operation folks to the execs, to the regulators, the community partners who think about the safety of their communities, the regulators all have that kind of shared view of risk. Just imagine, they all understand the same risk. They operate off the same sheet, and they make the same data driven decisions that could solve a lot of problems, because now the data is often scrambled across different people. Certain people have access to it and certain people don't.
Trevor Freeman 14:25
Great. Okay, so let's get into the specifics here. I want to actually talk about specifically what you what Overstory does. How do you find we've kind of talked about vegetation management, obviously, you're supportingHydro Ottawa and other utilities in our vegetation management programs. How do you find and tag high risk vegetation? What is high risk like? What do you actually do on a day to day basis?
Lynn Petesch 14:47
Yeah, that's the part that I deal with the most often. So excited to get into specifics. Implementing with Overstory is actually pretty easy. I mean, when we start working with a customer, we need to know where is your grid. So we need to understand where your power lines are. Planning. We need to understand the main configurations of them. How tall are the poles, etc, so we can really compute that whole focus of where the trees in relation to your power lines, to your conductors. That's all ultimately that we're focusing on. Increasingly, we're all seeing focusing on the ground. I'll be talking about that as well. We then task these satellites over your territory. We do that during the leaf on season, so that will be the summer, essentially. And then we run all these models. So we are first needing to understand, where are the trees, what is their height, what is their health? An unhealthy tree is much more likely to fall and cause damage to your power lines. We're looking at the fuels on the ground. We can help you determine what type of equipment you might need to attack certain types of vegetation. And we always compute it to that risk to the conductor. And we look at your right of ways. Now, I think the interesting part about your question is the what is high risk? And that is, can be very different across different utilities, and I think that's the maybe the unique part with Overstory is that we can configure it to your standards. So every utility has very unique components. If you're on the West Coast and you're concerned about wildfires, your tolerance to risk will be very different. And if you're on the East Coast, where you're mostly concerned about not causing too many outages, including that you might have specific trimming specifications. The crews running around with chainsaws, they know exactly how far out they need to trim, how much they can trim, and there's a bit of a risk tolerance thing. So we built very configurable risk frameworks for all of our utility partners, so high means one thing to hydro Ottawa means something different to a customer in California that is facing a very different type of risk.
Trevor Freeman 16:49
So you're out there assessing, essentially, just for the context of our listeners, you know, we've got power lines that run overhead. They run through residential neighborhoods, commercial areas, but also forested areas, treed areas where there's lots of vegetation near our equipment, your company really gets an understanding of the the interaction between the vegetation and our lines, and says, these ones are too close, or this is a tree that's, you know, not healthy, and could come in contact with your lines based on your analysis. So help us, like, let's paint that picture a little bit more detailed. How do utility companies take the information that you are coming up with, that your analysis is coming up with, and use that to run a vegetation management program more effectively? What does the utility do with that information?
Lynn Petesch 17:37
Yeah, so we always center it around four main use cases. One is optimizing a program that already exists. It's creating a targeted program for you. It's quantifying your work and risk reporting. And I'll dive into each and every one of them a little bit to illustrate a bit more what that could mean. So when we think about program optimization, a lot of utilities, they have existing vegetation management cycle. They might have a regulatory obligation to visit their territory every four years, for example. Now, a lot of times they've been doing their program the same way for the last 10 maybe 20 years, but the conditions in their territory are different, right? I mean, the things we're seeing, the storms are heavier. There's more tree decline that we're seeing right now. So they know they need to adapt and they need to adjust it. But it's big programs with lots of budgets attached to it, a lot of crews running around. So starting to think about how you can start pulling a socket that you're meant to trim forward, or starting to tackle an area where you say, is more residential, there's fewer trees, focusing on your high risk areas. First re managing these programs is one key component that we work with a lot of companies on. And thinking about Oklahoma, Gas and Electric, for example, that they have a budget, and they can only do that much with the budget, and it was really about reinventing where they can get the biggest impact. The other one, the second use case, is this targeted program creation, and I'll use the Hydro Ottawa use case for that. You know, they had suddenly a view about where are all of their hazard trees? Hazard trees are these trees that are declining, they're dying, or they're dead, and they could have an impact on your system. Now, suddenly you know where they are, so you can start building a targeted program about dedicating some time and budget and crews to actually going and addressing those trees that has a big impact on your reliability and on reducing tree cost outages. And there's many others, sort of like hotspotting, is a very common term about starting to become proactive and doing something for a specific program. And the third one is work quantification. And I think there, when you think about it again, there's large contractors that are running around, managing your territory. And now we utilities, for the first time, often have that data to actually assess how much work there is. So that's really helpful in terms of negotiating your contracts, getting better bids. Some utilities say it's really hard to find contractors that want to work on their system, because it's very hard to estimate how much work there is, or they might have a budget to mow certain vegetation along a transmission corridor. Just knowing how much vegetation there is is a really helpful tool to address it and prioritize it in the right way. And then the fourth use case is the risk reporting, and that is about getting that baseline view about your risk and tracking it year over year. And this is really where we want utilities to have that data to report it out to their boards, insurers, regulators, and often it's used to defend your budgets, secure your budgets, or really have some data to kind of back you up on what the problems are that you're facing.
Trevor Freeman 21:05
Great. So you talk about data, and you know, each of those use cases that you mentioned, or strategies that you mentioned really are about getting the right information in the hands of the right people to make decisions and sort of more efficiently and effectively make decisions, but it's a lot of data. And so Hydro Ottawa has over 6000 kilometers of lines. You know, this, of course, as our partner, we have a big territory, and we have a fairly treed territory. That's a lot of data points. You're collecting a lot of data from your satellites. You're doing analysis on that. How are you doing that analysis? Is it, you know, AI is kind of a buzzword, and every sector right now, and the utility sector is no different. Are you using some form of AI or machine learning analytics? What are you doing in terms of, you know, crunching the numbers and coming up with the right actions?
Lynn Petesch 21:59
Totally, yeah, AI is a buzzword, but it's also very exciting. I think utilities have really embraced it already. They're using it for demand forecasting. They're using it for customer service. They're using it for asset planning. I mean, at the core, Overstory has been using AI to turn remote sensing data into operationally useful intelligent about their vegetation. So when you say yes, Hydro Ottawa has that many 1000s of kilometers of overhead lines, we need to a rank it to them. This is your worst circuit. This is your worst area. This is the area where you have the most hazard trees, for example. So we can really rank order on a span level, from the worst to the best, right? So that could be one thing, it's still an overwhelming amount of data. So where we started by using AI to kind of predict that whereas the trees How tall are, they were and they were relation to the conductors. Now what we're really excited about, or kind of leaning into, with AI, is how to intelligently, kind of assess and prioritize risk. So not every hazard tree has the same impact. If a hazard tree falls on a line where more houses are dependent on you will knock out the power of more people. So it's always a prioritization exercise, and leveraging AI for that is what is most exciting to us right now. And I think it's important to note that we also don't just want it to be a black box. All of the models we've built, they're always validated by certified arborists and kind of our utility partners. And I think at this stage, this is very important, because every tree that we find exists in the real world, and so validating this, AI in the with ground truthing, has been really important for us to also build that trust in the technology.
Trevor Freeman 23:42
That's great. And I do think it's helpful for our listeners to kind of understand the context before this, this work is sort of done, you know, in the absence of a tool like yours, it's, it's sort of done. You know, there's a degree of manual effort here. There's a degree of patrolling the lines. There's a cycle of vegetation management. So if you've done a line this year in three years or four years or five years, you want to be looking at it again. This takes a little bit of that, I don't want to call it guesswork, but it takes a little bit of that manual effort out of the equation, and really focuses efforts in the right way. And it's only with the tools that you know you folks are using that you're able to do that volume of analysis and get that pinpoint accuracy. So that's fantastic. Let's, let's get into kind of the success of it at all, like the big picture. We've obviously talked a couple times here that you're our partner here at Hydro Ottawa, so I know that the success that we're having with you, but you know, tell us some of the great success stories with other utility partners. Are you, you know, are you actually reducing weather related outages? Are you seeing the impact of using the overstory tools and methodology to support utility partners?
Lynn Petesch 24:58
Yeah, I mean weather related outages can mean many things. You have trees knocking over, like the pole might crack, etc, you know, those there's a lot of things that can happen during a storm. And I've heard a lot of stories about side of some of the storms that Ottawa has experienced in the past years, where, you know, you could have had anything, and they're just heavier, and that the consequences are really strong, but what we can impact is the tree cost outages, right? And that we've proven with Hydro Ottawa, where, within a year, by focusing that targeted program on going to an area where you had a massive amounts of these trees that were dying off and they at any point, was just a little bit too heavy wind could be toppled over and fall on the line, we had a 44% reduction in tree cost outages. That's a real, tangible number. You can see, I'm thinking about utility as well. In the on the East Coast, a co op that runs through very rural areas. In those areas, you have a trees outside of the right of way that are toppling over on two lines. So tree cost outages are a huge issue for them, and it's really impacting their safety and safety those key, key KPIs that utilities are always tracking and by us just giving them a rank order of which has a tree they had so many of them, which has a tree to even go to first, because if that has a tree were to fall on a line, a ton more people are going to be out of power than if the other one were to fall the line, you will have, like one rural cabin that will not have power. And that led to a reduction of something around 90% of tree cause outages is to 70% it's still a long way to go, but it was a really tangible number that you can see, and it shows that if you then do that proactive work, you have real impact on your tree cost outages. And it's if I think about our customer in California, Pacific Gas and Electric, for example, it's a lot around helping them understand where they don't need to go. So it's kind of doing something of a visual inspection and actually skipping certain spans, that can be itself a really big use case. Because right now, if you don't have an understanding about where your risks are, you might be spending trucks to roll for hours around areas where there is not really any tangible work to be done. So redirecting them to the right areas is where we've seen a lot of success there, and that obviously leads to budget wins, right? You'll be saving a lot of money by doing that. And those are kind of the use cases that we chase and that we kind of help prove the cases on.
Trevor Freeman 27:29
Absolutely, yeah, there's, there's only so many resources you can you can throw at this, and making sure that we prioritize and focus those resources in the right spot is absolutely critical. You were just talking about the West Coast, and you mentioned this earlier. I know wildfires is is an area that is obviously of great interest for your organization. We're fortunate here at Hydro Ottawa, and that we haven't really had to deal with that much. But anybody who's you know following the news knows this is a major problem for us. So how, what is your role in helping those utilities prevent wildfires? Maybe give us, like, a very quick primer on why utilities are a factor when it comes to wildfires first, and then how your organization is supporting that.
Lynn Petesch 28:13
So unfortunately, utility cost wildfires tend to be the most catastrophic wildfires because they're critical infrastructure, and we've obviously seen that happen across the world, in in the US recently, again and again. But utility cost wildfires, as I said at the beginning, are also the actual wildfires that are preventable. So that's really where we're lying to lying into a lot of the forests right now. They've become Tinder boxes. That is obviously because of fire suppression policies? That's because of forest management techniques that have been leveraged in the last couple of 100 years that are slowly changing at different paces? Canada's had some, unfortunately, some really bad fire seasons recently as well. And so where overstory wanted to place itself as a net prevention space to even not add to the point where you have a spark, because there's a lot of tools out there that focus on mitigation and what is, what do you do when you see that first plume of smoke coming up? And so we've landed in kind of really focusing on the prevention side, so that utilities are hopefully in the future, not the ones that spark any of those catastrophic wildfires we've already always been looking at that the vegetation that could touch your conductor, right? That's I've been speaking about that a lot, but now we're really excited for the first time, and we recently announced that we launched a fuel detection model. So that's us looking at the ground fuel conditions, and those are actually usually the key contributors to the spark that spreads the fire. We're now providing that to utilities as a much higher resolution than ever before. For me, it's interesting because I've spent a lot of time looking at trees, and now I'm going into the field and I'm looking at the ground, and it's a new perspective. But yet again, we could just, you know, we don't want to overwhelm our customers. A lot of maps and showing the fuel conditions, necessarily, we can really help them identify those spans where a single failure would have the greatest consequence. So yet again, it's about how to make that data that, you know, there's a lot of wildfire risk map out there, but make it a very actionable list of spans that if they were to tackle those they are very proactively reducing the risk of igniting a fire. And as a result of the protecting their communities.
Trevor Freeman 30:29
Got you so it's not just about the overhead trees, branches, etc, contacting the line. It's, you know, if a switch goes, if an insulator pops, if, if something happens that will cause sparks. What's happening on the ground below that line, and how do we make sure it is able to withstand sparks? That might happen.
Lynn Petesch 30:49
Exactly if you have dry grasses, if you have sagebrush, if you have certain types of fuels, they're just much more likely to spark a fire and then spread, spread out without there even be any any trees you have these prairies along Texas that can blow up in a fire very quickly, and the fires can spread to tremendous sizes. And so understanding the fuels on the ground is really important.
Trevor Freeman 31:15
Super interesting and fascinating work to get involved in. As you mentioned, this is obviously an area of, I don't even know if I call it growing concern anymore, great concern for for the utility industry and all of us. Yeah. So with the technology that's, you know, we talked about AI a little bit ago, it's literally growing before our eyes. It's really evolving fast. Do you see your technology evolving along with it. What's what's kind of next for your organization? You talked about getting into sort of the ground vegetation management. What comes next? How do you see it evolving as AI and tools evolve?
Lynn Petesch 31:52
Yeah, I mean, if we see that the future is where we want to support a grid that is much safer and reliable, as I mentioned, we also want to make it sure it's resilient to the climate and the economic pressures that there are. So our initial focus and our continued focus, and where we have a lot of our expertise has been with vegetation. Now we're starting to look at the ground fuels, then that naturally evolves into looking at the asset vulnerabilities. So you know, the actual polls, and if there's any failures potentially on those as well as further weather exposures, right? It becomes, then about the soil moisture. It comes about the wind speed. It becomes around the rain, precipitation, etc. So there's a myriad of things that we can start looking at and that we want to start looking at in order to get that more holistic view of risk, and go beyond just vegetation right now, where we're investing most heavily in is that wildfire risk. There's also the resolution that we see with satellites right now is at 30 centimeter that may drop down to 15 or 10 centimeters, so the resolution will get higher. There's other sources that we're exploring already flying, sometimes aerial imagery that is at that five to 15 centimeters, then you would really start seeing soon, you can start seeing a leaf on a on a tree. It gets really impressive. There's lighter there's lots of other kind of remote sensing technologies that we're looking to leverage in the future. And then, as a company as well, we're starting to, obviously expand internationally. We started working with utilities in New Zealand that have very similar problems and various regulatory changes. They also have a problem with wildfire risks. So that is, that is another angle that at Overstorey We're chasing right now.
Trevor Freeman 33:35
Yeah, I'm glad you brought up that. You know, understanding of other assets beyond just vegetation, has kind of been running through my head of we talk about, and I think we've talked about it here on the show. If we haven't, I should do an episode on that, like a digital twin, a digital twin of our grid, and really having a good understanding of not just, you know, a line drawn on a map of, Hey, your circuits run this way, but really physically, what's happening out there, and being able to sort of model that interact with it in a digital way, to understand, if we do X, Y and Z, what happens. So the technology that you guys are using to really get good imagery and understanding of what's out there, well, I think what I'm hearing from you is could potentially be leveraged in that next level to understand, what pulls do we have? What health are they in? What you know, what's happening with that conductor? Is it sagging too much? Is it in good health? Like there's, there's all this opportunity that's really fascinating to hear.
Lynn Petesch 34:31
Yeah, already. Now, when we look at transmission corridors, we look at the sag of these lines, and the terrains are also really challenging, something to look at. So there's a lot of factors that need to be taken into account. And that can only expand as we want to look at risk more beyond just the vegetation element.
Trevor Freeman 34:48
Very cool. Well, Lynn, very interesting to hear this. I'm really glad you came on the episode or the show today to talk to us. Fascinating to hear what Overstory have to I know that we're super excited to be. Working with you here at Hydro Ottawa and excited for what comes next. We always end our interviews with a series of questions, so I'm going to dive into those and here we go. What is a book that you've read that you think everyone should read?
Lynn Petesch 35:13
I was thinking about an author more than a book. My favorite author is Jonathan Franzen. If I would recommend one book, it'd probably be Corrections, his most famous one, I believe. But they're like, these chunky, 800-900 page books where you kind of get immersed in these families and you feel like you know them at the end, and they kind of, I think about them for like, months afterwards. They're really good reading, at least for the winter when it's cold and you spend a lot of time inside. So probably Jonathan Franzen books, yeah.
Trevor Freeman 35:41
Yeah, we're we're recording this just before the holidays, and I think we'll be releasing the episode after but winter is such a great time to curl up with a book, and it's awesome to have a good recommendation of a nice thing.
Lynn Petesch 35:53
It'll be called in January.
Trevor Freeman 35:56
Absolutely. So same question, but a movie or a show?
Lynn Petesch 36:00
Yeah, I'm not a big movie buff, but I recently rewatched What's Eating Gilbert Grape, seen it with Johnny Depp and Leonardo DiCaprio, and I always felt like Leonardo DiCaprio should have received an Oscar for that performance back when he was 14. But, yeah, it's a beautiful movie. awesome.
Trevor Freeman 36:20
Awesome yeah, that's a bit of a blast from the past, but you're right. That is a fantastic one. If someone offered you a free round trip flight anywhere in the world, where would go?
Lynn Petesch 36:27
French Polynesia, because it's so far I've never been a friend who went. I'm sure it's very expensive to go there, so it'd be great for someone too. Yeah, no, that's a place I'll go one day.
Trevor Freeman 36:41
So, yeah, fantastic. Who is someone that you admire?
Lynn Petesch 36:45
Yeah, that's a it's a tricky one, because I was thinking about, like, people, you know, in, I know, family, etc. But like, if I were to think about a, and it's a little left field, about a public persona, and also a bit of a blast from the past, I'll think about Tina Turner. She's been my icon since I'm a kid, I was always listening with my dad to Tina Turner. And I think the word that I've probably most used in today's episode was like resilience. And I always think about her as like possibly the most resilient woman in the world who reinvented herself and her career in her 40s and 50s, and is this complete power woman, you know, always done everything at her own terms. So get so much energy from not just her music. I've seen so many documentaries about her, and she's always been this kind of woman that I know, filthy with energy and kind of like drive. So I'm a big, big fan of Tina Turner.
Trevor Freeman 37:38
That's fantastic. I have to say, that's never come up on the show before, and now I need to go and dive down a rabbit hole of like, learning about Tina Turner listening to some music.
Lynn Petesch 37:47
Yeah, she's great woman.
Trevor Freeman 37:48
Yeah, good answer. Last question, what's something about the energy sector, or let's expand that to kind of the climate sector that you're really excited about?
Lynn Petesch 37:59
Yeah, I'm gonna take a very high level. But I think the thing I've always been following the most is, like, that broad topic of the energy transition, and I think the recent changes, or like, kind of the way we talk about it, has become a lot more interesting, because it used to be this kind of fluffy, big kind of vision, and now we're in that phase where it just has to be very practically implemented, and we're trudging along with it, no matter the political climate, etc, there is kind of a move forward. And I actually really liked the way that, I think, when I first started learning about it, or getting interested in it, it was always about renewables, and now it's around just sort of like needing to build a system that is both, like low carbon and climate resilient. And there's something in that, like way we talk about it now that I find really interesting. There's immense amounts of innovation in it. So yeah, I'm just enjoying following what's happening on that and how we are. We're moving that direction, no matter what's happening right now. So that's exciting.
Trevor Freeman 38:55
Yeah, okay, when I know my listeners are probably roll their eyes, because I say this all the time, but it's a very exciting time to be in this industry, and very exciting to kind of see the evolution of energy and how we're interacting with it, how it's impacting our society. And we really feels like we're at an inflection point. And very great to have you working on one aspect of it that people probably don't think about a lot. So thanks very much for what you're doing.
Lynn Petesch 39:19
Yeah, exactly. When you start working for Overstory, the one thing that happens is, wherever you go, you see trees and power lines. And I have very keen eye for, unfortunately, trees that are in poor health right now. So that's one of the professional things I've developed.
Trevor Freeman 39:35
Carry like a spool of red ribbon around you can, like, tie on the at risk trees and just so someone could come along. Lynn, thanks so much for coming on the show today. Really appreciate it. It's been great chatting with you.
Lynn Petesch 39:45
Thank you so much.
Trevor Freeman 39:46
Take care. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe. Wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear. From you, whether it's feedback comments or an idea for a show or a guest, you can always reach us at [email protected]..
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It's a new year, so we're unpacking what 2026 could bring for Canada's energy sector. Host Trevor looks back at 2025, from shifting federal policy to rapid AI adoption. Then he scans the horizon: faster major project approvals, an east–west grid push, and new hydro and small modular reactor investments in Ontario. He also touches on AI-powered DER programs, battery storage, and wider support for industrial decarbonization. Plus a quick note on the podcast's new pace.
Related links
● Independent Electricity Systems Operator (IESO): https://www.ieso.ca/
● Save on Energy program: https://www.saveonenergy.ca/
● Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114
● Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en
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Transcript:
Trevor Freeman 00:00
Welcome to a thinkenergy short hosted by me, Trevor Freeman. This is a bite sized episode designed to be a quick summary of a specific topic or idea related to the world of energy. This is meant to round out our collective understanding of the energy sector, and will complement our normal guest interview episodes. Thanks for joining and happy listening. Hi everyone, and welcome back and Happy New Year. Welcome to 2026 this is the first think energy podcast episode of this new year. Happy to be here with you. I'm your host, Trevor Freeman. So last year, we started off 2025 with a little bit of a look forward at some of the energy stories we might see throughout the year. And I think this goes without saying, 2025 was a pretty eventful year when it comes to energy and politics and all things associated with that certainly had lots of twists and turns, more than any of us expected. But I kind of think that's just the new normal in all things this during this time of history, but certainly when it comes to energy as well, I think we should just expect every year to be unexpected, lots of twists and turns. So I think the best way to start this one is to look back at some of the things we said we were keeping our eye on at the beginning of last year and see how they turned out, and see whether or not our predictions or guesses were correct and kind of what happened throughout the year. So just for a little bit of context, when we recorded this episode last year, Justin Trudeau, Canada's Prime Minister at the time, had just resigned the leadership of the party and as prime minister. So we knew that a new leader was coming for the Liberal Party, and likely a federal election was on the horizon. And at the time, the Conservative Party in Canada was much more popular with voters according to polls, and it looked very much like there would be a new government, a new federal government, but that is not what happened. And I'm sure Canadians will know that is not what happened. So after Justin Trudeau resigned, the liberals climbed in the polls. They chose Mark Carney to lead them, and not long after they won the election. Now in the episode last year, I had said that should the Liberals stay in power, which seemed like a long shot at the time, but should the Liberals stay in power? We knew what their energy policy was. They would keep the carbon the price on carbon. They would invest, continue to invest, in clean energy infrastructure and continue working towards their net zero goals. They had been working on that that was kind of a main pillar of the liberal party's approach to governing, and that felt like a safe bet. But even that did not come to pass. On his first day in office, Mark Carney canceled the price on carbon, and soon after that, he paused the previous government's EV target, or target to achieve certain sales on electric vehicles, and just recently, he has signed an MOU to work with Alberta on a new bitumen pipeline. So that is a little bit different than what we expected, should a Liberal government continue? So why is all this happening? Well, this, this isn't a politics podcast, so we're not going to get into all the specifics, but plainly stated, the government is saying they want to position Canada as a leader, both in clean energy, but also economically. And there are some economic pressures that the government is under, and this is what they are saying that is the best way to move forward in that so we'll get to some of the outlook on the new government, or not so new anymore government, but the current government shortly. But let's have a look at some of the other things that we said might happen for 2025 last year, we noted that utility companies would likely continue to use AI to streamline their processes and monitor infrastructure and just really take more advantage of AI. Personally, I can say that AI has moved forward in ways that we couldn't even predict last year, at least that, you know I couldn't predict last year. I'm sure there's folks out there who totally saw where this saw where this was going, but AI really is taking off in our personal lives, certainly in the workspace and definitely in the utility space as well. So we saw some of that come true, but we also see that AI is capable of way more than that in the energy sector, like all sectors of the economy and all areas of society are really looking at new ways to use AI and figure out what's the best way to integrate this into our business. How do we take this from pilot projects to, you know, actual core parts of our business? So that's continuing for sure. We also said that electricity companies or utility companies would continue to invest in. Grid modernization, and that certainly is happening. In August of 2025 the federal government announced a plan to spend over $13 million to update Ontario's power grid, with five major projects on the horizon, which is a huge investment, and investment of this size is really intended to make the system more reliable and help manage projected electricity demand. And you know the other thing, and I'm sure I've talked about this before on other episodes, so you'll be aware that hydro Ottawa is still in the in the process of getting approval for our next five-year plan, which has big investment in reliability and modernization and supporting continued electrification. And of course, we talked a little bit about the trade conflicts with the US, and you know how Canada is responding to that. And certainly, that was a major piece of 2025 it really formed a lot of the policy, or influenced a lot of the policy of both our federal government as well as provincial government when it comes to energy projects, it's increasing that look kind of east to west, rather than north to south. So making sure that we have good interprovincial energy cooperation and collaboration. And certainly, we've saw some progress on that throughout 2025 so on the sort of provincial side of politics, again, I'm in Ontario here, so we had suggested that we would likely see a provincial election in 2025 and certainly that's exactly what happened. The Ontario Conservative Party won another mandate, and part of their approach since they've come back into power, or one that new mandate is to look to expand clean energy, look to expand our nuclear fleet in particular. And we'll talk a little bit more about this in a little bit. So that's kind of a summary of the 2025 outlook that we did a year ago. Now let's get into what might we see moving forward in 2026 and again, you know, just the caveat here, this isn't a politics podcast. This is strictly about energy. So going to try not to weigh in on one side or the other of some of these issues, just highlighting what we might see moving forward. So, first off, major projects. So in 2025, this sort of newly elected Prime Minister of Canada, Mark Carney, founded the major projects office. This department looks to streamline the approval process for what they consider nation building projects. You know, trying to help take the approval process for those projects to be like a two-year decision rather than a five year decision under that kind of previous process that it went through. On the website for this the Liberal Party states that they open the major projects office in part to build clean energy infrastructure quickly, and of the 11 nation building projects that they've announced so far, they are categorizing eight of those 11 as clean economy projects. On top of these, Mark Kearney reiterated his commitment to building an East West electricity grid, which would link those our provinces together and help, like I said earlier, help that flow of electricity east to west, you know, between provinces improve, rather than, you know, right now, we have a lot of great north south connections between us and the United States. So the intent is that these projects will really position Canada as a leader in clean energy, help us achieve our own carbon reduction and net zero goals and ensure that we can manage growing demand for electricity. So we're in very early days of those projects yet, and what I'm highlighting here is that we expect to see a lot more information about those projects, about how they're going to proceed, timelines, etc, during the course of this year, and likely even see some new ones get added to that to that current list. So speaking of major projects, our next item that we're keeping an eye on is the Alberta to BC pipeline. This definitely has been a big news item in the latter part of 2025 and as we move into 2026 we expect to see a lot more about it and hear a lot more about it. So near the end of 2025 the federal government smart Carney signed an agreement with Alberta's Premier. Alberta's government, led by Danielle Smith, and this agreement acknowledges the plan to collaborate on and expedite the approval process for a new pipeline, which will transport oil from Alberta to the coast of BC. And the federal government is calling this a nation building project, and it would streamline the review process for this pipeline. So really make it a lot easier to get through the various hurdles in order to actually be built. And sort of initial timelines are saying Construction is expected to start in 2029 So still a few years out. But this pipeline was controversial before the agreement was signed. So this pipe. China has been on the books, or, you know, in the plans for a while, and it was controversial to start with, and this agreement has, you know, only made it more so it was really skyrocketed this project into the public's eye, and there's a lot of controversy around it. Once the announcement went public, Liberal MP, Stephen Gilbeau resigned from the Prime Minister's cabinet citing the government's decision to walk back their climate commitments. So this is definitely controversial, mainly because a new pipeline will increase fossil fuel production by, you know, at least a million barrels per day is sort of the current estimate, which is counter to Canada's stated target of reducing greenhouse gas emissions and achieving net zero emissions by 2050. In addition, BC's Premier, David Eby, also opposes the project, arguing that the federal government moved ahead without meaningfully considering BCS concerns British Columbia's concerns, particularly around environmental risk and the spill response on BC's sensitive coastline and on their marine ecosystem, which would be put at risk by adding another pipeline in the area that they're talking about. In addition to that, many indigenous people in BC and elsewhere stand against the pipeline, and the government is still looking for indigenous stakeholders as part of this project. Now, Mark Carney and Danielle Smith both say they want Canada to reach its net zero target by 2050 but even after the deal was signed, Alberta announced some changes to its industrial carbon pricing mechanism that, you know, in a sense, weakened that tool, which a lot of people are kind of pointing at to say, clearly, climate targets are not a key driver in consideration in this. And so this there's a weakening of the climate tools that we do have in place is not a great sign, and we'll leave it at that. So there's a few caveats to this deal. First, the pipeline is only supposed to move forward if there's real progress on carbon capture. In other words, the pipeline and large-scale climate capture are kind of being treated as a package. So in theory, you shouldn't get one without the other. But carbon capture is yet to be implemented at scale. It's not clear that it's actually a viable solution, something that can actually have a meaningful impact at that scale. So it remains to be seen whether or not that that can actually happen second. And this is a big one, the pipeline needs a private sector partner to actually build it, and nobody stepped up for that yet. So it's important to know that this agreement between the federal government and the Provincial Government of Alberta is just to help streamline the process. Should a private sector partner come along to actually build this, the federal government's not saying they're going to fund it and build it, which is sort of contrasts with how the previous Liberal government traded a pipeline many years back. But we won't get into that here. So all that to say, don't expect any actual movement or shovels in the ground on this one anytime soon. And certainly, as this progresses, there will be lots of legal challenges, and sort of you know, there are, there are people on both sides of this, but we will hear a lot more about this in 2026 it's going to be a big news story. Things are going to happen, and we'll hear both from proponents of the pipeline as well as opposition to the pipeline throughout this year, it will definitely be a big energy story here in Canada and even beyond that, Okay, next up investments in Ontario, so let's look a little bit closer to at least home. For me, on a greener note, Ontario will expand its clean energy sector in 2026 the government has announced several new partnerships with indigenous groups, including two large scale hydroelectric dams in northern Ontario. We talked a little bit about that in a previous episode, and they've also committed $4.7 billion to refurbish and update existing hydroelectric facilities to make sure that they can continue to provide clean electricity well into the future. So some of these new stations, there's the Nine Mile rapids project and the Grand Rapids project. They are coming online, you know, at a time when we really do need additional capacity on our grid. So ISO, as I've talked about many times, ISO is predicting that by 2050 we'll see a 75% increase overall in the province. But specifically in northern Ontario, demand for electricity will increase by over 80% and to meet that demand, there's, you know, this is an all tools in the toolbox. Kind of approach here, in addition to all the other great things that are happening, distributed energy resources, energy efficiency, etc, we also do need more infrastructure, more generation. The government also wants to expand Ontario's nuclear fleet. This is a government that's very keen on using nuclear. Energy and expansion of our existing nuclear assets as an important tool to provide emissions free electricity. One big step that they've taken towards this goal is investing $3 billion into four small modular reactors, which will produce, you know, 1200 approximately 1200 megawatts of energy, which is a lot that's enough to power over a million homes. Construction on these started in 2025 but the reactors aren't expected to come online until 2030 but the important point is that the government is very keen, as I said, on nuclear energy, looking to expand our emissions free electricity in order to meet our growing electricity demand, but to do so in a way that still tries to approach our climate targets and make sure that we're providing emissions free energy. Okay, next step is AI we talked about this last year, and it's well, it'll be a topic of conversation for many, many years to come. So AI and electrification, lots more in store. This year, it'll be a key investment area for energy companies. Moving forward, for sure, we'll see utilities continue to use it to build smart grids, for example, to analyze the flow of electricity on their grids in real time. And hydro Ottawa is no different. We're a part of that as well. So just in the last few weeks here, at the very end of 2025 in December, the federal government announced a $6 million investment into hydro Ottawa's der accelerator program. And part of that program looks to utilize AI to help us analyze electricity demand manage it. So this program really looks to partner with customers in specific areas, areas of constraint, to leverage their own devices. So customer owned devices like smart thermostats, battery storage systems in order to help us manage electricity demand. And we'll use AI as a function of that, or as a tool to help us do that to really forecast when we need to take action and what action we can take. But AI goes well beyond that. So electrification is going to grow. Overall, electricity demand is going to grow. We're going to see more utilities looking for solutions like large scale battery storage systems in order to tackle that demand. These systems, the storage will help relieve the grid from additional stress and better utilize the infrastructure that we do have in place. So lots more to come on, the sort of next gen of technology when it comes to AI and grid mod and how we're going to use those to help manage this growing electricity demand that we're seeing Next up, and our last kind of main topic is decarbonization. So that's not anything new. Obviously, if you're listening to this podcast, you'll know that we talk about this all the time, and it's one of the main drivers of what's happening in the energy industry right now. But decarbonization continues. It's not a constant flow of progress in the same direction. There's sort of ebbs and flows, if you will. We saw lots of change on the decarbonization front in the last year, but it continues to be something that organizations need to figure out. We know that we need to decarbonize as a society. Our different sectors of the economy all need to figure out how they're going to decarbonize, and the stakeholders of that really need to figure out what their role is. So the ieso, as one of those stakeholders, has also been focusing on their own decarbonization support, but mainly Their support has been focused on transportation and building heating. But we expect there to be, you know, a bit of a broadening of that look from the ISO in 2026 looking at other sectors like mining, paper, steel, you know, cement production, refining, chemicals, etc, the list goes on. So really look to see potentially more support for others, other areas of the economy, and how they will achieve decarbonization with, you know, could be industry specific programs or initiatives. We should probably see more of that in the coming year. But that's not to diminish from the existing programs that are already in place, and we'll see more leverage of, for example, of the ISOs existing save on energy incentive programming which helps existing commercial businesses, industrial businesses, residential customers, really target energy efficiency, energy reduction in the in the decarbonization in their own lives or workplaces. So there will be continued leverage of that. Utilities will continue to promote that. So expect to see that be a big piece of 2026 so that's the areas that we've that we've identified in 2026 it'll be interesting to look back a year from now to see you know what happened? Was it in line with what we said here? What came out of the blue that we totally didn't expect? Or what was a bigger deal than. Maybe we thought it would be but really look forward to this year. We've got lots of great conversations planned with some fantastic guests, and really looking forward to exploring some of these topics. Certainly, looking for you guys to connect with us and interact with us. Send us a note, find us on social media. Think energy at hydro ottawa.com is our email address always looking for guest recommendations, topic recommendations, questions, feedback. I'd certainly love to hear from you. You might know it's a little bit of a change in how we do things in 2026 we're certainly committed to continuing to bring you great content and great guests, but we might be shifting to maybe more of a monthly format, so really focusing on bringing those experts on, giving us the time and the space to plan those episodes, to coordinate with the guests and bring you great content. So we'll be looking at one episode a month moving forward, but always happy to hear from you. So if you have thoughts on that format or again topics, guests certainly reach out. Okay, so that wraps up our first episode of the year. Like I said, really looking forward to getting into all the great content this year with you guys. Thanks for tuning in. Happy New Year, and we'll chat with you again soon. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. To spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at [email protected].
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In Part 2 of the Holiday Rewind, Trevor revisits five standout episodes from thinkenergy in 2025. The conversations focus on renewable energy, from Distributed Energy Resources (DERs) and building decarbonization to energy storage, district energy, and the policy forces shaping it all. This episode reflects on how renewables are becoming personal, scalable, and central to Canada's smart energy future. Listen in for a thoughtful look at the momentum we've built and the progress we made.
Related links
Episode 163 (How Distributed Energy Resources (DERs) are reshaping the grid): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/thinkenergy-shorts-how-distributed-energy-resources-ders-are-reshaping-the-grid/
Episode 150 (Decarbonizing Canada's buildings with the Building Decarbonization Alliance): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/decarbonizing-canadas-buildings-with-the-building-decarbonization-alliance/
Episode 152 (Capturing lightning in a bottle with Energy Storage Canada): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/capturing-lightning-in-a-bottle-with-energy-storage-canada/
Episode 154 (Reimagining heating and cooling with district energy systems): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/reimagining-heating-and-cooling-with-district-energy-systems/
Episode 149 (Looking ahead at 2025 clean energy trends): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/looking-ahead-at-2025-clean-energy-trends/
Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/
Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en
To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405
To subscribe using Spotify:
https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl
To subscribe on Libsyn:
http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/
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Transcript:
Trevor Freeman 00:00
Welcome to thinkenergy, a podcast that dives into the fast, changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at think energy at hydro ottawa.com, hi everyone and welcome back. Welcome to the second of our special year end holiday rewind episodes that we do here on the think energy podcast, I'm your host, Trevor Freeman, in our last episode, we looked at five conversations or snippets of conversations that we thought, you know, helped shape the way we think about the grid, everything from politics to grid modernization to large scale investments, what Hydro Ottawa in particular is proposing to invest in our grid, but Today is all about the fuel that powers our clean energy future. And I don't mean all the candy and gingerbread and all the sugar that we're going to eat over the next little while, although those help too. I'm talking about renewable energy, solar, District Energy Systems, how we're using distributed technologies to really transform the way we generate and manage and use power here in Canada. Think of this episode as a bit of a, you know, warm fireside reflection on the progress that we've made, the momentum we're carrying into the year ahead. But also keep in mind how far we have to go. We've got more work to do, and 2026 needs to be another year of focusing on that. But today we're going to revisit portions of, you know, five conversations from 2025 that really show how renewable energy isn't just a trend, it's an accelerating shift that's reshaping our homes and our businesses, our communities and even the grid itself. So let's jump right in with our first clip. So today we're going to start with a clip that's close to my heart, because I talk about distributed energy resources all the time, and you guys hear me talk about that all the time with guests and in some of the solo episodes that I do, it's one of the clearest signs that renewable energy is moving from kind of the fringes of the grid, the very large centralized systems to really write on our own rooftops and backyards and on our businesses, DERs represent really that bottom up renewable revolution. So rooftop solar, home batteries, smart EV chargers and more, these are becoming technologies that our friends and neighbors and us, even the listeners of this podcast, have and are using to add real clean energy to the grid and using it in smarter ways. So here's a moment from my distributed energy resources episode that looks at how DERs are becoming those practical tools for resilience, for decarbonization and just for everyday energy use. So let's dive into what some of the reasons are why someone would want a der there's a couple of different reasons. The first is for backup during an outage. So using solar panels, especially if paired with a battery, can give you some backup if there's an outage from the grid, whether that's a storm or an accident or something like that, that backup power can be focused on your key devices or systems or appliances, or if your storage is big enough, or your system is big enough, it may be used to power your whole home for a period of time. Of course, if you're using one of those non renewable sources that I mentioned, like a fossil fuel power generator, for example, then your backup supply can last longer, really, as long as you've got fuel. But it's not clean, so you will be producing carbon emissions. One emerging technology that we'll likely see more of in the future is using an electric vehicle for this purpose. So while there's only a few different models that allow this right now, the Ford F150 is one of them, and there are some safety and regulatory considerations before you go ahead and do this, we can expect to see more of this in the future as the technology advances and it becomes a bit more widespread. Another reason for DERs is financial. Installing a der can actually help you save money every month, whether that's just by reducing what you consume from the grid, or by pushing back unused generation to the grid for credits, and I'll touch on this a little bit more shortly. Finally, if we're talking about those renewable DERs, they produce clean energy. So that's carbon free emissions, free energy. And if you are concerned about your carbon footprint, you're trying to decarbonize and reduce the amount of emissions that you cause. Renewable DERs are a great way to do that. You can lower your carbon footprint by reducing how much you draw from the electricity grid and any carbon emissions that are associated with that. You know what I love about this is just how simple. Empowering. It truly is. Renewable energy isn't industrial scale anymore. You know, everybody can at least envision themselves playing a part in the renewable transition. There's incentives out there to support putting renewables in the business case. Is starting to make sense for homes, for businesses, it's becoming local. And as these DERs grow, they don't just decarbonize homes, they also strengthen resiliency, and, you know, support the other drivers that people have for their energy, having more control over it, having resiliency and backup during outages, etc. And this theme of people having more agency and control over their energy really ties into the next clip that we're going to show as well. We're revisiting again we played this on the last holiday rewind, but we're revisiting our conversation with the Building Decarb Alliance about buildings. Buildings are one of Canada's largest sources of emissions. They're also one of the biggest opportunities for renewable driven change. So in this conversation with Brian Flanagan, we talk about how renewable energy and electrification, so from heat pumps to solar grid integrated building systems, how these things are reshaping the way we heat and cool and power the places that we live and work. And in this clip, I really think it captures the scale of the challenge and the optimism of the transition. You really can't overstate the importance of buildings in our lives. We eat, sleep, work, learn and socialize in buildings, among many, many other things, a huge percentage of our lives takes place inside buildings. In fact, most of us probably have to make a conscious effort to actually spend time outside of buildings. I know that I try to make a point of spending time outside every day, and I have to be conscious about it, because it might not otherwise happen. And as a result of that, centrality in our lives, buildings are major users of energy. Some estimates say that around 30 to 40% of energy use in Canada is associated with buildings, and they're also a major source of greenhouse gas emissions. So around maybe 18% or so in Canada. That means that the buildings themselves and the way we build them, the way we heat them, the way we use them, are an important part of our efforts to decarbonize and to further the ongoing energy transition.
Bryan Flannigan 07:24
We tend to focus on kind of four main areas, making sure that there's policy support at various levels of government, and understanding which policies might be effective and which ones might be less so, and trying to advance the ones that are high leverage, looking at the grid impacts of electrifying buildings. Because it's undeniable that if you switch from fossil combustion of fossil fuels to electricity, you require a clean electricity system that has to have the capacity and be robust enough to support that. So we want to be clear about that. We want to really address that in a cogent sort of way, and then really mobilizing and activating the sector to implement these changes and to find the solutions, because many of the solutions are at the intersection of different subsets of the of the sector, whether it's banking and finance, or whether it's development community or the utilities, every market actor has a role to play to find solutions. Is very rarely one sub sector that can really act to, you know, to overcome a barrier. And so we try to work at the intersection of these different groups, and by convening the players, we can roll up our sleeves and kind of get to that. And then, last but not least, you know, this is a very complex sort of question in terms of, how do we get there? What are the pathways? It kind of reminds me of nutrition, medicine, things like that, where, you know, at one instance, it's great to eat eggs, and another instance, terrible to eat eggs, and then it's good to eat eggs again, because the evidence is shifting right, and we have to follow the evidence. We have to understand that the systems are complex and that various investments in the grid will alter the landscape. And so we're working really hard to increase the analytical capacity of the sector, to model and to be able to understand how this will really play out when you have exponential sort of technological advancement coming to play, and you know, different investments and different dynamics that are bearing out as the sector decarbonizes, which is, it's really complex, and so we need better tools to be able to grapple with that. So those are the four sort of main areas, and it's a heavy lift. We arrive on the scene with great humility, recognizing that we stand on the shoulder of many, many other organizations who have come into the space, trying to take a slightly different approach by bringing all the players together and trying to find some common understanding of how we how we get this done. You know, we have to do something different. We've been doing energy efficiency for four decades, give or take with the programming that we've had, and it's been very effective. I don't think there's any more old T 12 light bulbs anywhere that worked. That's great, but we need to do something different now to get fossil fuels out of the buildings for heating purposes, right? That's the goal.
Trevor Freeman 09:53
So what resonates most for me about Bryan's message is the idea that buildings aren't obstacles to decarbonization. They're really. The engines for it, as the renewable electricity systems we have our buildings will become smarter, cleaner, more efficient, and as we talk about we spend a lot of our time in buildings. And so when we think about grid interactive homes to solar ready construction and thermal storage, the building sector is really becoming a major driver, or has the potential to become a major driver of renewable transformation. So speaking of storage, this next clip is a revisit of the conversation that I had with Justin Rangooni from Electricity Storage Canada, and we explored one of the biggest enablers of renewable energy growth, which is battery storage, because, you know, let's face it, the sun isn't always shining and the wind isn't always blowing in the right direction. And with batteries, you can really create flexibility and stability for your renewable systems. And ultimately, that comes down to possibility. So my conversation with Justin really walks through how these battery systems both utility scale but also behind the meter, kind of more individual sized unlock far more renewable energy by making it dispatchable, resilient, responsive, et cetera. And I think in this next clip, we really capture that beautifully.
Justin Rangooni 11:16
Okay, so the best way to think of it is. There's an analogy that one of our members had always said, and we continue to use it when we talk about energy storage. And the great things that can do is that it's like bacon. It makes everything better. I don't eat bacon, but I take I understand the concept, and what that means is, if you look at it from a grid management point of view is that we have all in Ontario, we're lucky to have a pretty clean grid. If it's nuclear power, or it's water power, or it's intermittent generation like wind and solar and even some gas too, which is which is near zero, low, low carbon, and we don't have coal, so it's a clean grid, and energy storage can make that better in the sense that it will optimize those generation assets so we're not wasting it. So those days before we would hear about when energy is needed but the wind's not blowing, or the sun's not shining, or we don't need the energy and we have to spill water, or, you know, we may have to power down a ramp, down a bit of the nuclear ramp, or the natural gas units. Now, energy storage can make sure we don't waste that now we can collect that power when it's done, when it's when it's being done, when it's being made, and we're holding it for when it's needed. And from a grid management that is the real key. That is the game changer that energy storage provides. And if we break it down, down to the customer themselves. You know, you're trying to think of now, not just helping keep the lights on. We're also talking about your rates now in terms of, now, we can kind of defer those investments in terms of more generation, because now you have energy storage that's getting more out of it. We're also talking from the distribution side of poles and wires. Maybe you don't you can defer those investments a little longer with more distributed, connected energy storage. So now the customer is starting to see the benefits of energy storage in their rates and in their electricity bill. And look, I just got an electric car, so really excited about it, and I can see the possibilities of that car being a battery from my home for my use, which, again, now maybe that's still a bit down the road with B to G and, you know, using it to power a residential energy storage unit in my house. But the possibilities are really endless. So this is really the exciting thing about energy storage, from a Grid Manager down to the customer,
Trevor Freeman 13:38
Yeah, and I think it's, it's important to think about the different contexts that energy storage can play, or the different roles that it can play for our individual customers, a homeowner. There is a role for storage there, and you get some of those benefits that you just mentioned, but then we can scale that all the way up to the grid level. And you know, us in the utility space also have some things that we can do with energy storage. And like you said, we can manage things a little bit better. We don't have to waste that energy. We can generate it when it's cheap and hold on to it and use it when it's maybe a bit more difficult in those peak periods. So lots of different uses. Thanks for laying that out for us. Now we hear a lot about, you know, decentralization and community based energy systems kind of more control at the community level. When it comes to energy what's the role of energy storage in systems like that?
Justin Rangooni 14:34
Well, I think that's energy storage can really make that a reality. Now, again, I think I'll go back to my example having an electric car, it seems like more getting closer to being more a prosumer than just a consumer now. So I can see the possibilities of using electric vehicle. You could and then you start to pair that with other kind of your thermostat or your other smart technologies in your home. So now, when we're talking about decentralizing community-based energy. Systems, the consumer, the utility, the system operator, you're all able to get in the space of playing with the technologies. And that's really again, where it gets kind of exciting, that everyone's playing a role. There are different possibilities to use, and we think energy storage is the key to doing that, because it can store that energy when it's not needed, and you can use it when it's needed. And if the technology evolution continues, eventually, the homeowner, the business owner, can start to use that. I can use buy power from the cars. I can use my power that I'm generating myself or from the distribution grid. And now I can start to play with it and use it store overnight when rates are low or when it's excess supply, I could store that energy and use it when it's needed during the day. So really exciting times, and that's why we think energy storage is key to any decentralized or community-based energy systems.
Trevor Freeman 15:53
Yeah, really unlocks that ability to push control into the hands of the end user, whether that's the homeowner or the business owner or the community, kind of pushes it downstream into their hands. So really, every renewable energy expansion story has, you know, a chapter on storage. Batteries are no longer just an add on. They're becoming really an essential part of the conversation and a consideration for all these projects. And like Justin said, you know, a battery is like bacon. It makes everything better. And I couldn't agree more about bacon and batteries, from batteries powering homes and emergencies to grid scale storage, smoothing out renewable intermittency to neighborhood level systems, supporting micro grids, these are all things that we'll hopefully start to see more in our lives and in our communities. Battery storage is really what turns renewable energy into performance, great performance, and we're actually going to see those impacts. It's also tying into our next episode, because if batteries make renewables flexible, then something like a district energy system is how you really take that to scale. So in this episode that we're going to play a clip from, we took a deep dive into a world that often operates behind the scenes. And it was really great to reconnect with kind of an old friend and colleague, Scott Demark, about district energy systems. These systems provide heating and cooling to entire neighborhoods or campuses by using centralized, efficient infrastructure. And you know, you maybe you're asking, why does this tie into renewable energy? And that's because district systems are one of the most effective ways to integrate large scale renewable heat sources, whether that's taking waste heat from existing sources or geo exchange biomass, you know, ultra-efficient thermal storage, and putting that to good use. And so listen to this clip from my conversation with Scott that kind of captures that idea. So we've kind of touched on this a little bit, but let's dive right into, you know, we talk a lot on the show about the energy transition this, this push to one, move away from fossil fuel combustion to meet our energy needs, and two, shifting from a kind of static, centralized energy system like we have right now, big generators, large transmission lines, etc, to more of a two way flow, distributed energy system. What is the role of district energy systems within that transition? How do they help us get closer to that sort of reality that we talk about?
Scott Demark 18:29
I think the biggest way that they help is economies of scale. Okay, so by that, I'll explain that. Imagine there's a lot of technology that's been around a long time that is very scalable to the building level, but most of them are fossil fire. Okay, so the cheapest way to heat a building in Ottawa is to put a gas fired boiler in. That's the cheapest capital cost, first cost, and it's also the cheapest operating cost, is to put a gas boiler in. That industry is well established. There's lots of trades who could do it. There's lots of producers who make the boilers. When you start to try and think about the energy transition and think about what you may do to be different, to be lower carbon, or to be zero carbon, those industries are just starting right. Those industries don't exist. They don't have the same depth and so they don't have the same cost structure. And oftentimes they don't scale well down to the building. And therefore a district energy system aggregates a bunch of load, and so you can provide a thermal energy so at scale, that becomes affordable. And that is, you know, a very good example of that would be where you know you might want to go and recover heat from some process. And we'll talk about Zibi as the example. But if you want to go recover heat from some process and bring it in, it doesn't make sense to run a pipeline to a source to heat one building. You can't make financial sense of it. But if you're heating 20 buildings, that pipeline, all of a sudden makes sense to take waste heat from somewhere, to move it somewhere else. The other advantage is that truly, district energy systems are agnostic to their inputs and outputs for heat. So once you've established that hydronic loop, that interconnection of water pipes between buildings, what the source and what the sources doesn't matter. So you may have at one point, built a district energy system, and Markham District Energy Systems a great example of this. Markham district energy system was built on the concept of using a cogeneration facility. So they burned natural gas to make electricity. They sold electricity to the grid, and they captured all the waste heat from that generation, and they fed it into a district energy system. Well here we are, 20 plus years later, and they're going to replace that system, that fossil fired system, augment, not fully replace, but mostly replace that system with a sewer coupled energy recovery and drive those heat recovery chillers to a sewer system. So they're putting a very green solution in place of a former fossil solution. They don't have to rip up the pipes, they don't have to change anything in the buildings. They only have to change that central concept. Now, again, Markham could never do that at a one building scale. They're only that at the community scale.
Trevor Freeman 21:24
And because district energy systems make renewable energy more affordable through scalability and shared infrastructure, in some cases, the economic case for entire communities or neighborhoods or even large industrial complexes to adopt them is really becoming something that people are looking at. It's becoming more compelling. It's not going to work in every instance, as we talk about with Scott in the full episode, but it really kind of opens the door to more possibilities. And that brings us to our final episode highlight, which is a big picture look at some of the politics and trends and strategies that helped shape renewable energy in 2025 now we played a clip from this episode in our last rewind episode, but I want to revisit another part of that episode, and this is the beginning of the year when I kind of laid out some of the trends and things that we thought might shape energy politics in the year ahead, in 2025 and we looked at Canada and the US and global markets to really try and get a sense of where renewable energy was heading, just to remind you of where we were back then. We were facing a couple of elections ahead of us and the possibility for new or different federal governments, political government or provincial government. Sorry, looking at affordability conversations worldwide, momentum around clean generation. In this clip that we're going to play, we really talk about how renewable energy doesn't advance in isolation. It moves forward because of political, economic and technological factors that really help shape those conditions and create those conditions for growth, and those are essential if we do want to grow together. So I'm going to play this clip here and have a listen to kind of what we were thinking about at the beginning of 2025 and just a quick teaser, we'll be doing something similar in the early part of 2026 and so that'll give us a chance to maybe pick apart how close we were to reality. So without further ado, let's dive into those areas. Area number one is politics. So energy is political, and energy shapes politics, and politics shapes energy, and that's the same every year, but 2025, is shaping up to be a pretty significant year when it comes to political change that might impact energy policy. So to start with, we are mere days away, a little over a week away, as I record this from a new US administration. The Trump administration will take over on January 20, and like any change in administration, in what is arguably the biggest economy in the world that will have an impact on climate change policy, Energy policy, the flow of goods across borders. You know, there's talk of tariffs between Canada and the US. So just because it is in the United States, that doesn't mean it won't impact us here in Canada. So we'll be looking to see what change that does bring, what how that influences politics and energy policy and the flow of goods and all of those things that can impact what we do with energy a little bit closer to home. However, we also have some change potentially coming here in Ontario, at least, we are looking at potentially two elections this year. So to start with, there's the federal election. It is very, very likely, almost a sure thing, that we will see a federal election in the coming months. Justin Trudeau has recently announced his resignation, which will almost definitely trigger an election. So we could be looking at a new government or a new mandate for the existing government. So what might that mean? Well, if the. The liberal party, the current government manages to get another mandate and remain in power, we kind of know what their priorities are. They've been going down a path for the last little while. They will probably continue to invest in clean energy infrastructure. They will continue to push for net zero goals and look for ways to support others to achieve Net Zero targets as well. If there's a change in governments, which the polling suggests is likely that conservatives get into power, they are likely to look to prioritize affordability and resource sector competitiveness. They may also adjust timelines for emissions targets as a result of that, the one big thing that's worth mentioning, of course, is the price on carbon. This was brought in by the existing Liberal government, and they stand behind it. The Conservatives are very much campaigning on a platform of getting rid of the price on carbon, the Federal price on carbon, that will have significant impact on energy policy and how things move. There are a few previous episodes that you can listen to that talk a little bit about that, and I'm sure we'll talk about it throughout the year as things play out. And finally, in this section, in Ontario, it's very likely that we might see a provincial election as well. All signs are kind of pointing towards a provincial election this year. So what could that mean? Well, similarly, our existing government has kind of made their energy policy known. We know what their focus is, so they are focused on expanding our traditional energy mix, so nuclear, some natural gas, as well as some investments in renewables in order to make sure that the grid can handle growth and electrification in the sort of rising demand that we're seeing. Should we see a change in government to one of the opposition parties? There may be more of a push for more renewable sources and lowering those carbon emissions faster than the current pace of change, at least based on what they are saying. So we'll keep an eye on that and how that comes into play. Obviously, energy is sort of primarily in the provincial jurisdiction here, so a change in government or a new mandate for the existing government would certainly have a big impact on energy policy. So area number one politics, area number two is energy affordability. So as we've said, renewable energy progress doesn't just depend on the technology itself, it depends on the systems around it. 2025 really turned out to be a pretty pivotal year. And I think we'll probably look at every year in recent history and moving forward as pivotal years, because there was this convergence of political shifts and economic pressures and policy decisions that in some ways created a supportive environment for renewable energy planning and implementation, but not without barriers and not without challenges and so we're probably not where we would have wanted to be at the end of 2025 if we Were being absolutely optimistic. And thinking about a great outcome for the end of the year, but that's not to say progress wasn't made. As we close out part two of our holiday rewind, one thing becomes crystal clear, and something that I want to highlight, renewable energy isn't just a single technology or single story, it's a movement made of many different interconnected pieces, from the specific technologies of DERs that empower our customers to the buildings that are evolving into clean energy assets, to the batteries that are helping unlock flexibility in our renewable energy systems, to systems like district energy that are really transforming communities and campuses, and finally, to the policies and trends and, you know, other forces that are really shaping the pace of all this progress together, they show that there is a future that's cleaner and smarter and more resilient and far more electrified. These things are possible, and we are moving in that direction. The big question is always the pace that we're moving at. Thanks for joining me for our final rewind of the year. In fact, our final episode of the year. On behalf of the entire thinkenergy team, we really are grateful for your time, your curiosity and your commitment to understanding the energy transition, and, quite frankly, to your expertise. I know a lot of folks listening, and everybody that I have on the show really has a lot of great thinking and knowledge on these topics, and I'm really appreciative of getting to talk to those folks and bring some of that insight to the show. We will be back in the new year, absolutely, with more conversations that the goal is to illuminate and challenge and inspire and really continue this conversation with all of you and with our fantastic guests. Until then, stay warm, stay safe and stay energized. Thanks for listening. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at [email protected].
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Canada's energy transition isn't coming. It's already here. As 2025 winds down, Trevor shares a holiday rewind featuring five of the most electrifying conversations from the thinkenergy podcast this year. From clean energy trends and Hydro Ottawa's investment plan to grid modernization, the rise of DERs, and decarbonizing buildings. Sit down with something warm and revisit the insights, challenges, and big ideas that defined our fast-moving energy landscape in 2025.
Related links
Episode 149 (Looking ahead at 2025 clean energy trends): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/looking-ahead-at-2025-clean-energy-trends/
Episode 160 (Digging into Hydro Ottawa's historically large investment plan): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/summer-rewind-digging-into-hydro-ottawas-historically-large-investment-plan/
Episode 162 (Consumer impact: revisiting grid modernization with Capgemini Canada): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/consumer-impact-revisiting-grid-modernization-with-capgemini-canada/
Episode 163 (How Distributed Energy Resources (DERs) are reshaping the grid): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/thinkenergy-shorts-how-distributed-energy-resources-ders-are-reshaping-the-grid/
Episode 150 (Decarbonizing Canada's buildings with the Building Decarbonization Alliance): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/decarbonizing-canadas-buildings-with-the-building-decarbonization-alliance/
Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/
Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en
To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405
To subscribe using Spotify:
https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl
To subscribe on Libsyn:
http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/
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Transcript:
Trevor Freeman 00:00
Welcome to thinkenergy, a podcast that dives into the fast, changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at think energy at hydro ottawa.com, hi everyone, and welcome back. This is our special holiday rewind edition of the thinkenergy podcast, which has become a bit of a tradition around here. I'm your host, Trevor Freeman, and as we settle into the final days of the year, it feels like the perfect time to slow down and take a look back at some of the conversations that we feel really shaped 2025 at least, for the podcast and in our own minds. This year, we explored everything from grid modernization to decarbonizing buildings distributed energy resources (DERs) and some of the technologies that are really defining how Canadians live, work and stay connected. Today's episode is the first of a two-part holiday rewind series, each part highlighting five standout episodes that we feel really sparked ideas curiosity and great discussions throughout the year. So pull up a comfortable seat, pour yourself something seasonal and festive, and join me as we revisit some of the insights and innovations that we feel lit up 2025 to start with, we kicked off 2025 with a forward looking conversation on some of the trends that we thought might shape the year, and to be honest that many of them unfolded even more quickly than we expected. In our first episode of 2025 we looked at clean energy trends. We talked through how electrification and AI driven grid intelligence and new customer expectations were really going to change the landscape in real time for us, here's a moment that we captured just how quickly the industry is accelerating and why adaptability is so important to us. At the same time, utilities across the country will continue to invest in grid modernization. So as well as infrastructure expansion, not just modernization, we're also building and growing our grids to keep up with the pace of change, but we need to also be able to leverage more DERs on the grid, so more distributed energy resources, small scale solar generation, things like that. So we will continue to see utilities make steps in that direction. They will look to levels of government to support those initiatives, through programs and funding and regulatory change. So we will continue to see that change in grid modernization, but I know it's definitely a big topic for us here at hydro Ottawa. And finally, in this section, energy efficiency. Energy efficiency is not new. It's been around for quite a while. In fact, it was the primary focus, kind of before we shifted a little bit more towards thinking about carbon. But we cannot fully decarbonize, we cannot fully electrify without significant energy efficiency. We just won't be able to affordably build the infrastructure we need if we're not using energy in an efficient way. So that will continue to be a focus. And in fact, I mentioned the new incentive programs from the province of Ontario that is very much designed to support ongoing energy efficiency measures. So we will continue to see that as a focus in 2025 and our final area, area number five, is technology. So there is no year anymore. In fact, maybe there never was where technology doesn't continue to grow and expand and evolve in ways that we couldn't even imagine, and it does seem like the pace of change is picking up, but I think that's kind of normal. So we will see technology that supports or augments the energy transition continue to evolve in 2025 and the ways that technology influenced that really, you know, we have an idea on some of them, and it'll be interesting to look back in 12 months at what we know in December, 2025 that we didn't even know here today in January. So there you have it. That's going back 12 months. And my expectation of what 2025 might have in store in the new year, I'll be doing a similar deep dive on some of the trends that we've been seeing over the course of this year and what we might expect to continue into 2026 but that idea that the pace of change is accelerating certainly became one of the defining themes of the year, and I think is something that we can expect to stick with us for the foreseeable future. And I think you'll hear echoes of that in all the different episodes that we revisit today. Next up, a modern, reliable grid doesn't just happen. It's built through long term planning, thoughtful investments and a deep understanding of how our communities are growing and how their energy needs are changing. In an episode that we. Least back in June, we unpacked hydro Ottawa's 2026 to 2030 investment plan, and what that means for reliability and customer experience and preparing the system for tomorrow. In this next clip, I chat with Hydro Ottawa's Guillaume Paradis to really get into why it's so critical that we get our investment in the next five years, right for our grid, so that that's a nice segue into his next question, which is, of course, there's a cost for this, and this is why it is an investment plan we're out there outlining. These are our targets. This is what we want to do, but there's a cost to that, and so if we don't do this, if we said, look, we just can't put that extra investment into these areas, what are the implications on the grid, on our service? And let's look at kind of like, quality of service, reliability, safety, etc, if we don't make these investments that we are identifying right now.
Guillaume Paradis 06:03
Yeah, so it's pretty direct, right? What we've done for the in preparation for our rate application, in preparation for to develop our plans for 26 to 2030 is we've considered all the needs. We've looked at how old the assets are, how quickly they're deteriorating, how many might require replacement over the next five years, what would be an appropriate rate of replacement to ensure that we don't let risk build up in our system, we don't cause reliability issues. We've looked at how we make sure that we can provide service to our customers, that we can connect them in a timely manner, that we can do all those things in a fashion that is safe and ensures the safety of the public, our customers. And so a lot of thought goes into what is required over the next five years. And then on top of those factors and considerations, we also look at what impact will this have financially on our customers, because we're mindful that our service does affect, you know, our customers live, yes, in a positive manner when our service is reliable and power is available, but also financially. From a cost standpoint, we add to other pressures that everyone experiences in their lives, and so we want to be very judicious in setting the size of our programs the level of investments in managing those various factors, right? So we have a multifaceted responsibility, and we weigh all those factors in in our setting the plans for the future. So doing so looking five years out, as you can probably imagine, you know, if we didn't constrain the plans, if we just did everything our planning engineers would like to do, we would have spent probably another 50% more than what is in the current plan. So looking at old assets, looking at the service levels we want to deliver, we could have spent a significantly larger amount of money if it was purely based on we'll call them planning, you know, drivers. But as I said, we are mindful that we're responsible for the quality of our service on behalf of all our customers. And we took a very deliberate, extensive approach to adjusting the program size to match the various considerations and ultimately manage the impact on our customers from a financial standpoint. And so we landed where we are after some measure of restraint, some measure of adjustments down to the plans that would otherwise have been put in place. So thinking about what the outcomes would be if we didn't take the actions we're proposing. You know, it's pretty direct, if you think about it, and we've covered most of them, but it ranges from, you know, difficulties in connecting and delivering power to new customers in a timely manner so that can have impacts with respect to economic development and growth of our community so fairly direct, and frankly, you know, it's our obligation to connect, so we would do everything we can to provide power, but it might just be more difficult take more time on the reliability front again, what happens when you don't replace old assets is the failure risks continue to build in your system. So an 80 year old wood pole doesn't get any younger and. Doesn't get any stronger if you wait five, six more years. And so as I said, we do a risk assessment before we choose to invest, and our risk assessments tell us that we need to take action on those type of assets. And you know, take action in a timely manner. If we don't, what is likely to happen is that in a storm scenario, those polls that are deteriorated are more likely to fail, even in normal conditions, it's likely that we would see more failures that could lead to reliability issues, and so just a direct impact on the quality of our service for our customers, with respect to other outcomes, like enabling customers and supporting them in integrating more embedded energy resources, that might just become more difficult, as I said earlier, when we're don't have good real time awareness, we have to err on the side of caution and be more conservative in our management of the system, and that might mean restrictions on where and how we can integrate renewable energy resources. And then ultimately, you know, the paramount consideration for us is always safety, and that's an area where we would just have to be even more vigilant if we couldn't reinvest so old assets are inherently more likely to create failure risks and failures can lead to undesirable outcomes from a safety standpoint. So we would have to and already do, but be very vigilant in monitoring those assets, looking at them, looking at what we can do from a maintenance standpoint to ensure that they don't fail in a manner that would be problematic. So we would be an R always very active in looking at those riskier assets, those older assets, to make sure they don't cause problems. But reducing investment levels from what is being proposed now, reducing them further relative to, as I said, the planning levels we would have liked to put forward would have real consequences. And of course, we would do everything we can to manage those consequences and ensure that, you know, we continue to deliver the best service we can, but that would become more difficult than it is today.
Trevor Freeman 12:29
So that forward focus, that planning for the city that Ottawa is becoming and our energy needs of the future really reflects that shifting mindset that we're seeing across the whole sector. And I think we saw that throughout 2025 and certainly are going to keep seeing that throughout 2026 for our next clip, one of our most popular conversations of the year, not surprisingly, was with Andrea Nuesser from Capgemini, Canada. Andrea and I dug deep into what it means to modernize the grid, how technology, data, cybersecurity and customer expectations are all coming together and pushing utilities into a new era of grid management and grid design. This was a really great, wide-ranging conversation, but there was one moment that really stood out for its clarity and simplicity, and it highlighted this idea that modernizing the grid isn't just about technology alone. It's primarily about people. Yeah, well, let's do that right now. Actually, it's exactly where I wanted to go. Next is you and I have chatted before and talked about how there is this shift in how utilities are seeing customers, and there's a traditional mindset of how utilities looked at their customers, which has been different from you know, take your average retail customer, or retail relationship between an organization and a customer, utilities are shifting more. So let's dive into that. Tell me a little bit more about what that shift is, and how you see utilities moving in terms of how they engage with customers.
Andrea Nuesser 14:00
Yeah, so when I started working with utilities, the term rate payer was a very prominent term. So utilities would refer to their customers as rate payers, or in terms of account numbers, really and what mattered was really just how much electricity do these accounts or these rate payers consume, and there was very little other consideration around that. So I think there's a real shift happening right now where utilities are trying to understand who is this, who is this family, who are these individuals behind these account numbers? Because if I understand and if I become interested as a utility in who is actually consuming electricity, I can have a very different relationship with them. I can reach them with the right messaging, because it matters a lot to me. And if somebody talks to me and understands that. Let's say I'm a growing family living in a more urban area versus a retired couple out in the booth somewhere. So I think demonstrating that understanding really opens up opportunities for much deeper relationship and more targeted customer programs and overall, different messaging and communication, and ultimately an opportunity to build trust between customers and utilities, something that in the past, has been a little bit shaky, I would say, but there's huge opportunity to build brand awareness, to build this, this value based relationship and to build trust.
Trevor Freeman 15:45
I really liked this conversation, and I liked this particular moment because it really conveys that grid modernization goes beyond just the technological improvements, and it really prioritizes the human relationships and human interaction at the heart of our energy system, ultimately, all of this that we talk about on the show, the technology, the strategies, the policies, it's all about how we as people, as energy consumers, interact with our energy systems and use it to do all the other things in our life that are important doing, you know, heating our spaces and traveling and moving our families from one place to another, and all these things that are actually the important things are tied up in the energy system. And I liked how this conversation really tied those, those two concepts together. Next up this year, we definitely talked about distributed energy resources. It's been a theme of the podcast for a long time now, but we really are seeing lots of movement and progress. And this episode that I'm about to highlight really broke down how rooftop solar, battery storage, EVs, smart devices, they're all creating a more dynamic, flexible and decentralized grid. So it's taking DERs from just kind of standalone devices that do their own thing to really this ecosystem of devices and technologies that interact together. In this clip that you're about to hear, we explore why DERs, they're not just a technical change, but they're really a cultural one as well. One option to set up your der for financial reasons, is net metering, which I kind of alluded to earlier. Net metering is a setup for renewable generation sources only that allows you to use as much of your generation as you can to power your home when you're using it, and then push back whatever you don't use to the grid. Whatever you push back to the grid will give you a credit on your bill that you can use to offset the electricity charge portion of your bill. In the near future, you will also likely see more utilities wanting to partner with der owners. Here at hydro Ottawa, we are working on a technology project that will be launched next year that will enable der owners to leverage their devices for an incentive to help manage the grid in targeted areas. It's pretty exciting stuff, and it's really the next wave of distributed energy resources on our grid and how we're going to interact with them. It's pretty exciting. And finally, last one for this episode, one of our more thought provoking conversations of the year was with Bryan Flannigan from the Building Decarbonization Alliance. In this conversation, we talked about decarbonizing Canada's buildings. Bryan helped us really unpack why buildings are such a significant part of Canada's emissions profile, and why solutions require systems thinking, collaboration and long-term commitment. This clip really kind of captures the heart of that conversation, balancing practicality with urgency. Yeah, I know on this show, we talk a lot about the different parts of, as you said, all of society that need to be decarbonized. Obviously, buildings kind of comes to the forefront often, and so specifically around buildings talk us through this, maybe kind of a basic question, but, you know, help our listeners understand, why are buildings so important? Why is the decarbonization of our built environments so important when it comes to decarbonizing all of society?
Bryan Flannigan 19:17
Yeah, I mean, that's the crux of the question, right? Well, there's a bunch of reasons. I mean, if you think about it, the building, this is where we live, right? These are our homes. These are this is where we go to work. This is our place. Is a business from an economic perspective, organizations arrive in jurisdictions for the purposes of meeting their overall objectives. And if you require energy intensive sort of production. Or if you want to have a big workforce, you want to house your workforce in buildings that align with your objectives. And increasingly, those objectives feature a carbon kind of future, right? And so just from that perspective, it's important for us to kind of get aligned with the global trend toward this, to make sure that we have the investments that we need. And that we want to attract, and we want to have places where people can live that are aligned with those kinds of values. But from an emissions perspective, it's hard to kind of overstate how important the sector actually winds up being. The building sector emits about 90 megatons, give or take, of direct scope one emissions. And if you factor in the grid emissions that result from being buildings being connected to the grids across Canada. It's about 120 megatons. There are digits there that we could go into. But to put it into context, that's about the same as all of the vehicles on the road. So when we think about how important it is to electrify the fleet of vehicles that we're all driving, the building sector is the same. It's the same level of importance. And if we think about all of the work that we've done to decarbonize our electricity system over the years, eliminating coal plants, and those kinds of initiatives that we hear are in the news recently, the building sector emits about twice as much as all of that. And so, the context is that buildings are pretty vast in terms of the overall emissions. And when we think about where those emissions come from, ultimately, it's combustion of fossil fuels for heating our buildings. We're in a cold climate in Canada, takes a lot of energy to heat buildings, and because of the abundance of the resource and a bunch of policy decisions that have been made decades ago, you know, we're in a situation where we've got an abundant and relatively inexpensive source of fossil fuel to heat our buildings. It's about 1500 petajoules, I guess, give or take, and ultimately, we need to move to eliminate that over time, or to largely eliminate it. I mean, I think there's always going to be a bit left in the system. There's, you know, it's, it's a very complex and daunting task, because the building sector itself is very diverse. The buildings last a really long time. It's not like, you know, technology change, where you have if you want to change a phone, you can upgrade it from one year to the next. It's small. It fits in your pocket. It's easy to manage. But buildings are constructed to last hundreds, 100 years. 50 years is the typical lifespan. But, you know, we have lots of buildings that are very, very old, and it's a slow kind of system to turn over. It's a slow inventory to turn over. So it's a really big challenge, a lot of a lot of emissions from the sector. And so it rises to the level of really needing close attention and a different approach than what we've been taking in the past.
Trevor Freeman 22:15
Bryan's point there about systems level planning really resonates deeply with all the things we've been talking about this year, because none of these challenges exist in isolation. And systems thinking and systems planning is really this important concept or this important ethos, and something I actually want to explore further. And so keep your eyes open for an episode on that sometime in 2026 so as we wrap up this first of two holiday rewind episodes. The few themes keep rising to the surface. There's the accelerating pace of electrification. No question that we're seeing electrification continue to move forward, and to do so at an increasing pace, despite some bumps in the road, and we're going to see that. We're going to see two steps forward and one step back. But I think we're still seeing an increased pace of electrification, we are seeing the importance of modernization, of moving the technologies that we use to monitor and manage the grid forward in terms of, you know, catching up to where we are with modern technology. And we're also seeing the need for long-term thinking as Canada transitions towards a, you know, low or no carbon future towards net zero as we electrify our lives, we need to have that long term vision in mind, whether we're talking about the future of buildings, upgrading the grid, embracing distributed energy resources or navigating some new and emerging technologies. There's one truth that kind of stood out, and it's something I've said before, but I really want to make sure everyone kind of sits with this and appreciates it. Is that the energy transition is not something that is going to happen? It's not something that's in the future. It is something that's happening right now. We are in the midst of the energy transition. It's not going to be over tomorrow. It's not one of these things that happens very quickly, but we are living it right now. We are seeing it all around us, and it's something that I'm really excited about, talking on this podcast about and with our fantastic guests, and I'm glad to have all of you along with us on that journey. So join us in two weeks for the second part of our holiday rewind series. On that one, we're going to turn the spotlight towards renewable energy and revisit some of the conversations that inspired us the most in 2025 until then, from all of us at think energy, warm wishes for the holiday season. I hope you're staying warm and safe and have a great December and thanks for listening. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback, comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at [email protected].
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Waves, river currents, and tidal turbines could help power Canada's clean energy future. Trevor speaks with Elisa Obermann, Executive Director at Marine Renewables Canada, about the promise of marine energy and how countries like Canada are pursuing its potential. They explore how emerging 'blue energy' technologies complement solar and wind, support coastal and Indigenous communities, and move us toward a more sustainable, diverse net-zero grid.
Related links
Marine Renewables Canada: https://marinerenewables.ca/
Fundy Ocean Research Center for Energy (FORCE): https://fundyforce.ca/
canmetENERGY: https://natural-resources.canada.ca/science-data/science-research/research-centres/canmetenergy
Yuquot Wave Energy Project: https://barkley.ca/project/yuquot-wave-energy-project/
Blind Channel Tidal Energy Demonstration Centre: https://onlineacademiccommunity.uvic.ca/primed/blind-channel/
European Marine Energy Center (EMEC): https://www.emec.org.uk/
Canadian Hydrokinetic Turbine Test Centre: (CHTTC): http://www.chttc.ca/
Elisa Obermann on LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/elisa-obermann-07469245/
Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114
Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en
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Transcript:
Trevor Freeman 00:00
Welcome to thinkenergy, a podcast that dives into the fast, changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at think energy at hydro ottawa.com, hi everyone, and welcome back. I have a really great conversation for you today, but before I get to that, I think it's worth a minute or two of time to revisit some first principles people approach the energy conversation from all different backgrounds and angles, and I think it's good to make sure that we're all on the same page when it comes to some foundational knowledge before we dive into our topic today, the thing that I want to quickly review is electricity generation. Now don't worry, we're not going to get into an advanced physics level of knowledge on this, but I just want to quickly refresh everyone on the basics. And by the same token, to all of you advanced physics folks out there that are listening, please forgive me if I'm slightly off on a detail or two, as long as I don't mess up the core foundational information. So for the most part, the electricity that we use is primarily generated by spinning a coil of wire around a magnet, or inversely, spinning a magnet inside a coil of wire that causes electrons to move, and that flow of electrons is electricity. For the most part, that combination of coiled wire and magnets and a spinning motion is what makes most of our electricity. There is one major exception to this, which is solar power that doesn't involve spinning anything. But other than that, our major electricity sources utilize that spinning motion, and I'm not including hydrogen fuel cells here as a major source of electricity. So let's keep going with this spinning idea. Then the next question is, how do we make things spin? One very common method is heat. Let's say you burn something, coal or natural gas, for example, which creates heat. You then use that heat to boil water, which makes steam, which you can push at high pressure against turbine blades to make them spin. It's as simple as that. The problem is, burning things creates harmful emissions, which are causing climate change. You can also generate heat with non emitting sources, and a major one, especially here in Ontario, is nuclear power, splitting atoms in a controlled environment, a nuclear reaction generates heat and then the process is the same as previously described. So as complex as a nuclear reactor is its main purpose when it comes to electricity generation, is simply making heat so we can boil water and create steam, et cetera, other than heat. The other way to make things spin is to utilize naturally occurring kinetic energy. So that means something that's already happening out there that carries a lot of force that can push a turbine blade. This would include wind energy, so using the force of the wind to turn large wind turbines and hydro electricity, which uses water being pulled downhill by gravity, so a flowing river or a large dam to turn that turbine the same end results that spinning motion, but no need to create heat to get there. We're almost done with the science lesson, so just bear with me for another few seconds as we think about reducing our carbon emissions, finding ways to generate electricity that don't require burning fossil fuels is really important. Solar definitely has a role to play, but we also need more emissions free ways to spin things. I mentioned some of the more traditional ones, like solar and wind energy, but today's conversation is about some lesser known, emerging methods, which are covered by the term marine renewable energy generation. Phew, it was a long walk to get there, but we finally got here. All of that is to tee up my conversation today with Elisa Obermann, the Executive Director of Marine Renewables Canada. Marine Renewables Canada is the National Association for tidal wave and river current energy in addition to offshore wind. But it's those first three generation strategies that I am particularly interested in as non mainstream ways to spin things. These technologies are known as blue energy, but are often overshadowed by the more common renewable energies that we talked about, solar and wind generation. So I'm really excited to chat with Elisa to shed some light on them. Today. Elisa has served as the executive director of marine renewables Canada since 2015 she's a founding member of both the Electricity Alliance Canada and the Canadian Council on Renewable Electricity. She has also worked for several other organizations that focus on clean technology, tidal energy and the broader renewable energy sector, including Sustainable Development Technology Canada, the Fundy Ocean Research Center for Energy. Which you'll hear us talk about today as force and Nova scotia's Department of Energy. Elisa Obermann, welcome to the show.
Elisa Obermann 05:07
Hi. Thank you very much for having me.
Trevor Freeman 05:09
So, let's start off kind of with the basics. Elisa, why don't you tell us a little bit about your background and how you got into this pretty unique space in the energy sector that we're going to dive into a little bit more.
Elisa Obermann 05:22
Sure. So I decided after doing my undergrad, so I'm going kind of way back here, all the way back. Yeah, exactly. I did a degree, a bachelor's degree in English, but I really wanted to get involved in something that would help me do more for the environment, play a role in the future. So I decided to go back to school to do a public policy degree. And the first internship I had was with Nova Scotia Department of Energy, and it was actually on the oil and gas side of things, but my thinking was, well, this will get me eventually to where I want to go and working more in renewables. And that's essentially exactly what happened. And so I started working more and more there on renewable energy. Then started working on the province's marine renewable energy strategy. So it really kind of got me into this kind of path of, you know, working on climate change and renewable energy. And the other thing I will also say is that I grew up in Maine and really close to the ocean, and so after university, I moved to Toronto for a while, and I thought to myself, like, I really just want to do something that takes me back to the ocean. So this really combines both kind of goals I had for myself, in terms of working to protect and help the environment, and then also staying close to the ocean.
Trevor Freeman 06:35
Yeah. I mean, that makes a ton of sense. It's interesting. I talked to a lot of people, obviously, and often the question of career path comes up, and it's funny to see the things that we're passionate about in those early days, no one could guess how that comes to fruition later on in our careers. And you know, I've got some similar stories of wanting to save the world when I was in university and having no idea how the different paths that that would take me on. So great to hear your story. Thanks for sharing that. Tell us now a little bit about your organization, marine renewable Canada, and you know, kind of its vision for how marine renewables will fit into the energy sector.
Elisa Obermann 07:10
Yeah. So marine renewables Canada is a National Association. We're headquartered in Halifax, but we do work across the country, and actually, our beginnings were in British Columbia, really starting around like wave energy, small scale projects. One of our founding members at the time was BC Hydro. We now have over 200 members, and that's really grown just in the past couple years, because our focus is on wave, tidal, river current energy, but also offshore wind. And so there's been a lot of excitement, especially on the East Coast, around offshore wind, but today I'll probably focus mostly on kind of those water resources and how we're working to advance those. Our mandate is really to champion the sector, help with advocacy, engagement, education, and also expand market opportunities. So obviously we do a lot of work around enabling policies that help open up that market, both here, but also globally. But ultimately, what we'd like to see is that marine renewables is playing a role in getting Canada to net zero and right now. I mean, it's a more emerging technology, if you look at wave, tidal and river, but there's a lot of potential for it to play a big role.
Trevor Freeman 08:20
Yeah, so great. And that's a great segue into kind of the next thing I want to talk about on this show. We often talk about, let's call them the more traditional or conventional or well known energy sources, so our kind of traditional fossil fuel combustion, our other renewable sources, solar and wind, and even offshore wind, I think people have a sense of what that is. I mean, wind energy is the same on land as off land. It's just in a different location. But tell us about the types of marine energy that you're talking about. You just referenced some of them here, you know, take us back to basics. What are we talking about when we talk about marine energy?
Elisa Obermann 08:56
Yeah, absolutely. So I would categorize it as four main kinds, but I also will mention that there are some that our association doesn't cover. And I will touch on those, sure, primarily. So we focus on tidal energy. And when I say tidal I don't mean barrages or dams, which were kind of a more prevalent technology, you know, decades ago. What I'm talking about is what we call tidal stream and so essentially, if you think of, you know, what wind turbines look like, it's essentially a wind turbine, but in the water, so it can be developed or deployed incrementally, which is a lot different than what you think of when you think of a dam that has, you know, very long lasting effects. The idea behind title is that you can install it incrementally if there's concerns and with any kind of impacts to the environment, or concerns with, you know, the technology failing, or anything like that, you are able to remove it, or, you know, have maintenance on it fairly quickly. Wave Energy is another one that we focus on. It's the technology is not as far along as tidal in terms of, you know, getting to a commercial state. And there are many different. Different types of concepts, still for Wave technologies, but essentially, they can be placed near shore or further offshore. One of the things that's been, I think, kind of cool to think about is there's discussions around and some prototype type projects around using wave energy to power, for example, oil and gas platforms and doing that kind of, you know, pairing to help decarbonize that sector's energy use, river current. So I will say a lot of people think marine like that doesn't, you know, make sense rivers, you know, not by the ocean. And the reason we look at it and categorize it as a Marine renewable energy is that the technology is very similar to title, and so it's essentially the same technology that's used, except that it is unidirectional. So when you think of the flow of river, it's going one way, whereas tides, the technology would be used as a bi directional because the tides are going in and out. So but otherwise very, very similar. And then we actually also cover offshore wind, which is, of all of those, you know, a more mature marine renewable technology. And as I said, I think probably today I'll talk mostly about some of the earlier stage technologies. Our association doesn't cover a few others, and I just feel like they're worth mentioning, just because they're kind of cool. Also, floating solar is one that is gaining, you know, I think some more popularity, and also people are looking more what you know, how much of an impact it could have, ocean current technology, which would be kind of further offshore, and ocean thermal. And you can imagine, Ocean Thermal hasn't really been talked about a lot in Canada, because you have colder waters. Like, the technology just isn't right, the right fit.
Trevor Freeman 11:35
Got you okay? So I want to, I've got a whole whack of questions I want to understand, make sure I'm understanding the technology correctly. So let's start with Tidal. For Tidal, obviously, just a quick refresher back to, let's say grade 10 science for our listeners. Tides kind of come in and come out. The water moves up and moves down. You're utilizing that flow of water, that movement of water, which happens twice a day. Is that, right? Twice a day, every 12 hours?
Elisa Obermann 12:02
Yep,
Trevor Freeman 12:02
Good, yeah, just making sure I remember my grades and science most part. And you're using that movement of water to turn turbines that are underwater. Describe those for us. Is that, like you kind of related it to wind energy? Is it like a big wind turbine underwater? Does it look the same? Is it similar to that?
Elisa Obermann 12:20
Yeah, I mean, there's still a few different concepts, but essentially, yeah, that's how you could picture in your mind. I will say some are bottom mounted. So as an example, like it might have a gravity base and be anchored to the well, not even anchored. It could just be the weight of it is holding it to the sea floor. Some of the newer tidal technologies are floating. They're kind of like, on a pontoon type device, and they will have kind of the, you know, the turbines connected to that. But essentially, they're, you know, either way, whether it's floating or seabed mounted, it would be capturing the kinetic energy of the tides
Trevor Freeman 12:54
Gotcha, okay. And then for the run of river ones, it's, it's kind of the same thing. Water is flowing. Typically, rivers are flowing downhill, so that water is always moving, and you've got a turbine in there taking advantage of the fact that that water is moving in a situation where there isn't a dam that's using sort of gravity flow. It's, but it's the same idea. It's, it's flowing water that's turning a turbine. Yes, exactly. So then the one that I'm, I'm sort of not entirely clear on, is waves, like, what is the mechanism there? Is it just the same thing? You're just putting it in a location where there's prevailing waves generated by wind or current or whatever.
Elisa Obermann 13:28
Yeah, that one, I will say, is harder to describe, because I've mentioned there's many different concepts for it, but essentially, if you think of waves like so one concept, maybe this will be easy to visualize, would be more of like a buoy type device, and so it's capturing the height of the wave, like that energy coming through. There's some also called like an oyster. So it opens, like the device opens and closes to capture kinetic energy from waves as well. There's a number of different devices when it comes to to wave energy. And I will also say, depending on where, whether it's closer to shore or further offshore, that the strength of the energy from waves is also can be different too. .
Trevor Freeman 14:08
Yeah. So that's actually what, exactly what my next question was is, how far offshore are we placing these things? Are they like, right at the shore's edge? Are they visible? Are they kind of, you know, whatever, 100 metre out? 500 metres out?
Elisa Obermann 14:22
Yeah, in terms of for TIDAL, I mean, it would be closer to shore, but not necessary. I mean, still quite far out. It's not like you're looking at it and you're, you know, few 100 feet away, further. As an example, like in Nova Scotia, the Bay of Fundy has had several tidal deployments, and it depends on where you are. So there was one that was in a area called southwest Nova Scotia, where, if you were in the harbor, there in Briar Island, is where it was. You could see it right there, like it was very, very close, whereas those being deployed further out. So it really just depends on the location, but also potential impacts to other users. You know. Fisheries, all those kinds of things are considered when they're they're just determining location.
Trevor Freeman 15:04
Got you. And one last question, I apologize, I'm totally going off script here, but you've got me all excited about this, and lots of questions. How is this connected back to land? So you must be running cables, you're generating electricity, you're bringing that back to land, and there's some sort of transformation or storage. It's connected to the provincial grid. Like, what's the connection back to the grid look like?
Elisa Obermann 15:28
Exactly, yeah. So you're exactly right. There will be subsea cables that these devices will be connected to. They'll run to shore. Typically, they'll be connected to a substation, which then would be, you know, transmitting that energy electricity, I should say, to a distribution system or the transmission system. So as an example, force has pretty impressive subsea cables that have already been laid about 64 megawatts capacity with those and they built a substation at that site that then connects to the transmission system.
Trevor Freeman 15:59
Cool, very cool, awesome. Thank you for that. Thanks for entertaining my sort of nerdy curiosity there. So tell us about the benefits. Why is this something that the energy sector should be looking at? What are the benefits of this type of generation?
Elisa Obermann 16:14
Good question, and we get asked a lot. I will say, you know, why are we looking at Marine Renewables when we have solar and onshore wind and hydro that are proven and come at a lower cost, but we know we're going to need more electricity, and so the way we look at we can't put all of our eggs in one basket. We need energy diversity. But also marine renewables, such as Tidal and waves, they have some attributes that other renewables don't, so they can be very complementary to other renewable energy, and actually help to bring on other sources of renewables because of that, you know the synergies that they have. So as an example, and you mentioned it at the beginning, tidal is predictable, so we know when the tides are going to come in and out. We can schedule that. I mean, for energy system planning, we would know even 100 years from now, when exactly is that tide coming out? When is it going to be at peak? And so that's one that is very helpful in terms of reliability, predictability, all those things with waves also, I will say, I mean, they're very similar in some ways, because they are created by wind. So it's kind of the same concept, if you think of bringing it onto the grid, but there is an ability to forecast them further out. And one of the interesting things with wave energy, British Columbia had done some work, and I will say, I think it was the University of Victoria A while ago, just looking at the timing of them and when they're the most strong and powerful and consistent. And they found that they were strongest during peak times, like when BC would really need more power, so in the winter, during stormier times, that kind of thing. So those resources can be a very good match with other resources that maybe, you know, sometimes they they're not generating as much power at a given time.
Trevor Freeman 17:56
Yeah, yeah. I mean, that kind of gets into to where I wanted to go next is, how does this work alongside wind and solar and sort of traditional hydro? You kind of answered that a little bit. We know that we need to grow our greater our energy demand is going to grow. You know, here in Ontario, we're looking at a 75% increase. Across Canada, we're looking at sort of two to three times the growth, and especially clean energy. What sort of percentage or how much of a foothold Do you think marine renewable energy has the capability of meeting of that?
Elisa Obermann 18:30
Yeah, that's a great question. So I will tell you now, I don't have the numbers for that, but I will this January, February. We're actually working on a sector vision, looking exactly at that, like the capacity scenarios, what could be feasible, but really trying to take realistic view of you know, this is how much electricity wave, tidal and river and offshore wind could contribute. But what I will say is that when it comes to Tidal, for example, there has been some resource assessments done in the past. Canada has 40,000 megawatts of potential tidal energy, and that's looking at, you know, the best locations. So it's technical potential, but it's, it's also looking at just feasibility in terms of locations, and what might be, you know, close to grids, that kind of thing. Wave energy is between, I think, 10,000 to 16,000 megawatts, looking at both Pacific and Atlantic coasts and with river current still in early phases of doing some of this work. But Natural Resources Canada can met energy, and also the National Research Council did a pretty extensive resource assessment, and it was around 340 gigawatts of river current, I will say, I mean, that's a lot, right? So there's some factors there that are still, you know, they're working on, trying to understand, so ice, for example, because where rivers, you know, some of the strongest river resources are in areas that are in northern Canada, maybe not feasible. So there's still some more work there to determine what's actually feasible for these technologies.
Trevor Freeman 19:59
Are there this kind of just jogged a question for me. Are there other parts of the world where this technology is, let's say, more mature and greater use, or is Canada kind of leading the fray here, like, where are we compared to other parts of the world?
Elisa Obermann 20:15
So I would say Canada has been pretty well known as a global leader in marine renewable energy, and we started this in kind of the early 2000s starting to look at the resources and the technologies and how we could lead. But this was alongside some other countries that have been also doing that work. So the United Kingdom, Scotland, in particular, France and a number of other European countries. The United States has also put quite a bit of investment in R and D technologies, but the UK probably is the furthest along. And one of the reasons for that, and this is different than what we've done in Canada, is they have targeted funding and programs to really support the sector where I find in Canada, there's been, you know, a lot of great supports by both provincial and federal governments, but most of the time we're competing like, there's not a, you know, a specific program for just marine renewable technology. So I think that's had a bit of an impact even on interacting investment here.
Trevor Freeman 21:13
Gotcha, yeah. So you're trying to fit your projects into a bigger project funding envelope that could cover a bunch of different sort of energy related projects, and you're having to say, Yeah, look, ours fits in here too. Is that fair to say?
Elisa Obermann 21:24
Yeah, exactly, exactly. .
Trevor Freeman 21:27
Cool. Okay, I want to shift a little bit here. We often talk on the show about the sort of relationship between energy and society and communities. So what are some community benefits from marine renewable projects. Is this something that sort of has community ownership over it? Does the community get involved in these projects? Tell us a little bit about how that impacts kind of that local level?
Elisa Obermann 21:52
Yeah, I would say, from what we've seen so far, and this is just with, you know, very early demonstration projects, is that the local supply chain has benefited a lot. So there's been some studies showing that for both tidal and wave projects, you would be using probably about 60% local supply chain to build the project. And that's also just because the technology is massive, like you're not going to be shipping this. It's more cost effective to have most of the work done close to the site. And so as an example, again, Bay of Fundy projects that force to date, and the, you know, the research that force has been doing, and some of the R and D, I believe they've, they've used up to 500 local suppliers, or Canadian suppliers, so that's one of the biggest ones. But also just with local communities, there's been a number of things that we've also seen where they've been very engaged in some of these projects. I mean, obviously local businesses have but there are opportunities for local ownership. I think that the challenge right now is that there's still a lot of risk because the technologies aren't as mature as some others, and so some communities are more hesitant to buy into the projects. That said, there is a project in British Columbia, the Yuquot Wave Energy Project, where the Mowachaht/Muchalaht First Nation there is partnering very closely with a wave energy developer to move ahead with a wave technology that can help power their community. So there's all those kinds of things that I think make it attractive to communities, allows them to have some self sufficiency. And in the case of some of these northern, remote and coastal and indigenous communities, there's also that whole, you know, it's potentially displacing diesel in their community. So that's one of the drivers for them, marine renewables. There's been some, you know, studies around this as well showing that it would actually be lower cost than the diesel fuel that they're using in those communities. So there's that benefit as well.
Trevor Freeman 23:42
Gotcha. Yeah, actually, I've got a question here that I wanted to ask you, and so I'll skip to that one about the impact on especially remote indigenous communities that are not connected to the grid. I've had, actually, a few conversations on this show about how, how we go about helping remote and indigenous communities decarbonize getting off of local diesel generation. Are there other projects you mentioned one? Are there other examples of collaboration here? Do you see this as being sort of a relevant tool for that challenge?
Elisa Obermann 24:12
Yeah. So there's another one that I would also mention that I think is a great example again, University of Victoria in British Columbia had been spearheading what they called, it's the blind channel demonstration center. So Initially it started as working to help a, you know, it was like a remote eco kind of lodge become, you know, fully environmentally friendly, using marine renewables for electricity rather than diesel. But since then, they've actually evolved into more of an initiative to test and demonstrate title technologies there, given that it's a remote location, but working very closely with indigenous partners. And so what I think is cool about that is that it's helping indigenous communities to get involved, but not really requiring them to take on. And know, the risk of financing a project, maintaining a project, but it's giving them the opportunity to get the skills and expertise they would need to eventually, you know, bring Tidal or wave energy into their communities at a, you know, at a later date, when they feel more comfortable with the technology and also learn about how that technology impacts the environment and vice versa. Because I have found with communities like that's one of the things that they're most concerned about, is how, you know, how is this technology going to interact with fish or other marine life or the habitat? And so those kinds of smaller demonstrations really help, especially when they're, you know, hands on, and allow community members to be part of the demonstration.
Trevor Freeman 25:40
Yeah, yeah. I mean, you're doing my job for me here, Elisa, you're setting up all my questions perfectly. How does it impact, sort of local marine wildlife? What's the what ecological impact of these we're talking about, fairly complex machinery located in a marine environment. Is there an impact? Has that been studied? Is it comparable it's a sort of a traditional hydro electric dam. What is, what is the impact there?
Elisa Obermann 26:05
So there's been a lot of work in this area, and depending on the location of the project, and that's kind of the caveat I give with us, it can be easier to understand what the impact is. So as an example, in Scotland, I mentioned there's, they've done a lot of work with marine renewables. There's a test center there called the European Marine Energy Center, EMAC, and they have very high flow tidal sites, similar to what we have in Canada. And they're able to use cameras and other equipment to really see exactly what's happening at the site. And so a number of researchers, you know, over the last couple of decades, have been doing environmental monitoring, collecting data, and what we've seen to date is, for the most part, fish and marine life avoid these devices. There's also been research done on electromagnetic fields sound, but I think the biggest concern that people still have is collision with the devices, and what could happen there. Now, coming to Canada, we're in a bit of a different situation. So at the forest site in the Bay of Fundy, you know, there has been quite a bit of environmental monitoring and research done, but the water is very different than what you'd see in Scotland. At this site EMAC, where in the Bay of Fundy, there's a lot of sediment. It's very it's a higher flow site even. So there's, you know, a lot of turbulence, and the environmental monitoring equipment there that you know that exists, it just can't gather all of that information at the site like you can't use a camera and see exactly where fish may be going. So we can't say 100% no, there has been no, you know, fish collisions. What has been happening is that force and government of Canada and the Province of Nova Scotia, and I think also indigenous partners and some of the local researchers in Nova Scotia. So Acadia University, for example, have been partnering, and just recently announced a project to be able to develop those environmental monitoring systems that can work in the Bay of Fundy. And so those will be something, you know, once that's solved, that knowledge and those systems and that technology can be used anywhere in the world to give us a better idea of exactly what are those environmental interactions. But I will say to date, the body of research does show that there hasn't been any significant interactions at this point, but I'm always hesitant to say there hasn't been any, because we can't say that yet.
Trevor Freeman 28:21
Yeah, sure, fair enough. It kind of raises another question in my mind about even just servicing the equipment, or the longevity of the equipment. I mean, in a in a solar field, if you've got a bad panel, you go and you change a panel. A wind turbine, at the very least, is above ground. Not that it's easy to change a blade on a turbine. But what is it like servicing and maintaining the equipment when it's out in a marine environment and underwater? How easy is it? Or is that a challenge?
Elisa Obermann 28:51
Yeah, it's a very good point. It's definitely more challenging than onshore technologies, because you also have, you know, weather windows. So with Tidal, for example, even though you know what stage of the tide is in, plays a huge role in when they can go out and maintain or and service the equipment. And so that's one of the reasons these technologies bring in higher cost for the project overall. Obviously. The other thing I would also mention is just that with both tidal and wave like just depending on what if it's a floating technology versus seabed mounted also makes a difference. So what we've seen is some of these technologies are now evolving to be floating, and again, one of the reasons for that is this whole operations and maintenance piece, because it's obviously a lot easier to bring a vessel out there, get onto the pontoon and be able to service it, versus a whole diving operation, or ROV to go underwater to service it.
Trevor Freeman 29:48
Gotcha, yeah, tow it back to the dock and work on it at the dock.
Elisa Obermann 29:51
Yeah, awesome, exactly.
Trevor Freeman 29:52
Okay, let's switch gears a little bit here and talk about the policy, and let's say regulatory. Worry landscape around this. I've got a question here on funding coming up too, but as our listeners will know, and as you certainly know, energy is a very regulated sector, lots of policy around it. What are some of the policy challenges? Or are there policy challenges when it comes to deploying marine renewables?
Elisa Obermann 30:20
Yeah, I would say, because they're emerging technology, that's actually been one of the biggest challenges. So when we look at legislation in Canada, I mean, it never a lot of it's very old, right? So it never envisioned that there'd be these clean technologies coming up in the market that would they would need to govern and regulate. We have had a lot of challenges with the Fisheries Act, again, just because of that, it never envisioned that it would be regulating an emerging technology. And so, I mean, luckily with that, we did a lot of work with federal and provincial governments, and we have found a path forward that had been an issue in terms of, like the regulatory barriers being created by the legislation. The other one, I would say, is just these projects are small at the moment, right? So we're talking kilowatts, maybe a couple megawatts. And what we found is the, you know, just the regulatory efficiency is not necessarily there. So applying regulation will look at it just as the same scale as any type of project, you know, could be a very large project. So I think what you know, we would ask is that regulators consider the scale of the project and the regulatory processes and requirements should balance that scale of the project, you know, with what the requirements are.
Trevor Freeman 31:34
Yeah. Do you see a world where I'm gonna assume the answer is yes to this, but I'm gonna ask anyway, do you see a world where this is just another option that utilities and energy policy makers have in their toolbox as a way to procure clean energy, that this just becomes one of an item on the menu with solar and wind, et cetera? Are we gonna get to that point? Do you see that happening in the sort of near, medium term future.
Elisa Obermann 32:01
I think we can get to that point. But what it's going to require is that there are more deployments, more demonstrations, and regulators will really need to look at those early projects of exactly that demonstrations, and not treat them as commercial projects. And the reason I say this is because to get costs down so that they can be looked at in comparison to onshore and solar, we need to see a lot more deployment like when you think of a cost curve for any technology, you have to get to that scale and volume before the costs start coming down. It's some time before we get to that point, but it's absolutely possible. It just requires the right supports.
Trevor Freeman 32:38
Got you. On the funding side. We talked about this a little bit earlier, about how you're kind of using existing funding programs. There aren't necessarily dedicated programs for this kind of technology or these projects. Are there other funding sources, like, are you attracting investors into this? Is there, you know, more public money going into this? What's the funding structure around some of these projects?
Elisa Obermann 33:02
Yeah, so, I think to date, a lot of developers have and when I say developers, I mean the technology and project developers. But with marine renewables, sometimes it ends up being one in the same, because technology developers end up being the ones developing their projects. I think a lot of them are looking for two things at this time, so something to cover capital costs. So grants, whatever it might be, and there has, there have been a number of funding programs that the federal government has applied that have been quite useful for that, and then they usually look for something on the back end of the project once it's built. So what I mean by that is feed in tariff, something to help with their return on investment. And that seems to be kind of the right recipe for investment certainty at the moment, the other thing that I think Canada's recently done that's very helpful for this sector are the investment tax credits. And so our hope is actually that those get extended, because right now, where the sector is, and this also comes into play for offshore wind, is that they end, you know, in that 2033 timeline, 2034 I can't remember, whereas a lot of these projects wouldn't be online at that point. And so we're looking for a bit of a longer runway there. And I think tax credits are a very good tool that can help, you know, with attracting investment for these projects.
Trevor Freeman 34:16
So looking ahead, I mean, you've kind of touched on this in a few different spots, but to sum it up, what's next on the horizon for this technology and these projects? Are we expecting kind of innovation on the technological side, or is the focus still on the sort of funding and regulatory side right now? What can we expect for those of us who are going to maybe keep an eye on this moving forward?
Elisa Obermann 34:40
Yeah, it's a bit of both, I will say. So I mentioned that the tidal sector was having some challenges with the Fisheries Act a number of years ago, and that really kind of created a lull in development, but also in investment attraction. As a result of that, federal and provincial governments established a Tidal Task Force to. Look at the exact issues around you know, where the barriers are with the Fisheries Act, and then the outcome of that has been a new path under the Fisheries Act to support projects. And so there are developers that will be going through that new or revised, staged approach, is what they've been calling it. Time will tell, obviously, if that process works, but from what we've heard from developers, it does give them more certainty, because it essentially covers the entire project, rather than going through a device by device by device approach. And so that's on the regulatory side. I think if that goes well, it will give a lot of confidence to private sector and developers that this can move ahead, but it will also ensure that regulators know that they have an approach that is working, but still having those safeguards to ensure that you know they're protecting the environment and safety of communities and others on the technology side. So it's kind of like they go together hand in hand. So I mean, once we get through that process, I think there'll be more deployments, and we'll see the ability to test more technologies improve them. But to date, and where we are with especially with tidal energy, think the technologies are in, you know, they're in further generation. So we're not first generation technology anymore, and they've come a long way, and some of that's been through deployments and demonstration in other countries, Scotland, for example. So what I would envision happening is seeing some of those technologies tested in Canada, and then being able to, you know, deploy more than one and then, you know, multi device development.
Trevor Freeman 36:31
Great. One fine, maybe final question, although I keep thinking of things as we talk here, but you know, obviously this is very focused on coastal regions. You've mentioned, BC and sort of Nova Scotia where you're based. Do you envision, especially on the river side of things? Do you envision this as a technology that can be deployed kind of even in the interior provinces? Like, are we going to see river marine renewables in Saskatchewan, for example, or Ontario, where I'm based? Like, are you having those conversations? Or are we like, we're not quite ready for that yet, because we're still working on the technology piece.
Elisa Obermann 37:03
Yeah, I'm so glad that you asked that, because that's part I actually have missed in some of this. So there have been river current technologies deployed in Manitoba already. So the University of Manitoba has the Canadian hydro kinetic turbine Test Center. I know it's a bit of a mouthful, but they have been working with a number of river current developers. They've had several successful demonstrations. And there are also some companies that are that have been members of ours, that have deployed in other areas of Canada as well. In the past, even in Quebec, there's been some deployments. And so I think when it comes to river, you know, one of the challenges is there's, well, it's not a challenge. There's a huge opportunity there. It's just not very well known. And there are things like the ice, I think people are concerned about it being potentially closer to shore, just like the navigational issues, things like that, fish passage is different than what you'd see in tidal so there hasn't been as much of a focus on that. So it's earlier stage in terms of kind of that some of those environmental and social questions, but the technology is, you know, very close to where you'd see title at this point.
Trevor Freeman 38:12
Got you very cool we have so as our listeners know, I work for Hydro Ottawa, and Hydro Ottawa, parent company, owns the run-of-the-river generation dam here, right in the center of Ottawa, Chaudière Falls, and it's really fascinating. Now, it's not the same technology, of course. It's a it's a run of the river gravity fed dam, but the complexity around so the North American eel is an endangered species that's particularly impacted by dams and the technologies that we've had to put in place for that. It's really fascinating. Just kind of, I'm rambling a bit here, but all the different pieces that come together to make what should be a fairly straightforward thing, like use water to spin turbine, it's so much more complex than that. So I can appreciate that as you branch out into new areas, new technologies or new deployments of that, all those new complexities have to be figured out and worked on. But glad to hear that that's in the future, that that's on the horizon, because I think this is great, and it'd be cool to see more of this.
Elisa Obermann 39:08
Yeah, agreed. We're hoping we're getting there. It's taken time. I think things haven't gone as quickly as we had hoped. But you know, there's been a lot of learnings, lessons learned that have fed into where we are now, and I think just with what we're seeing, you know, with with government support, but also communities getting more excited about it, we'll see some real progress in the coming years.
Trevor Freeman 39:30
Okay, Elisa, we always wrap up our interviews with a series of questions to our guests. Some people love them, some people feel like they're on the hot seat, but I'm going to dive in anyway and fire these at you. So what is a book that you've read recently that you think everyone should read?
Elisa Obermann 39:45
Haven't read this one recently, but it kind of changed my thinking on everything. And I loved it, "Sapiens", I thought was great just with kind of the, you know, the history of humankind, and just made me rethink a lot of the things that. In terms of how society is structured and why we do the things that we do. Thought it was great, and if people haven't read it, I would highly recommend,
Trevor Freeman 40:06
Yes, very cool. That's a great book, and you're not the first one to mention that on the show. That's awesome. So same question. But for a movie or a show.
Elisa Obermann 40:14
There's probably a few that I would recommend, but really, I think the one that struck me the most recently, and I haven't watched a lot of movies recently, so I'll also say that, but just in the past couple years, was "Barbie". I loved it. It actually surprised me that, like, I had this totally different impression of what it was going to be, and just the kind of, you know, the key messages and things that it brought out, I thought were great. Like it was, it was very well done.
Trevor Freeman 40:38
Yeah, absolutely. It was one of those kind of cultural things that which seemed like it was going to be just another movie, and then there was some buzz behind it. And it got to the point where we, like, we did a family outing to go and, like, watch that movie with our kids, who were kind of at about the age where they can start thinking about some of these things. So it was pretty fun.
Elisa Obermann 40:56
Yeah, we did the same. We all wore pink. We really got on the bandwagon. I but it's great because as adults, you know, there were some really important things in it, but then also kids could relate, like it was a fun movie for them. So, yeah, it was good.
Trevor Freeman 41:09
Yeah, absolutely. My kids spent a long time, and still it'll come up singing the I'm Just Ken song that happens around our house often that song comes up, which, you know, wears on you after a while. Okay, so it sounds like you travel a little bit. So if someone offers you a free round trip flight anywhere in the world, where would you go?
Elisa Obermann 41:28
There's lots of places I would like to go, but I think probably Greece is where I would choose to go. I mean, I've been to Europe quite a bit for work and just also, you know, for fun. But my daughter has been saying for a really long time that she wants to go to Greece. She's only 10, so I've also kind of wondered where she got this idea, but I've also always wanted to go. So I think that would be my, my first choice.
Trevor Freeman 41:51
Very cool. I my wife and I honeymooned in Greece. It's a long time ago, but we had had a great time. It's gorgeous.
Elisa Obermann 41:56
Oh, amazing.
Trevor Freeman 41:58
Who is someone that you admire?
Elisa Obermann 41:59
That would probably be one of the tougher ones of these questions. Well, I'll say so generally, when I think about this kind of question, it's like, what are the kind of characteristics or qualities of someone that I would admire? And so I often look at how other women are, you know, conducting themselves, working in business world or in politics or whatnot. And I think what I admire most in some of those women is just the fact that they lift other women up. They're not afraid to be who they are and take a stand on things they really believe in. I think something I also really admire are women that are willing to take risks to build their business, and also in times of you know, where there's challenges or conflicts taking the high road. And so with all that said, you know, when I think about this, and I don't know if this sounds too cliche, but I think Michelle Obama's great, like when she said, 'When they go low, you go high', I just thought that was such an important message. And I actually share that with my daughter all the time when she's having trouble in school. I'm like, think of it this way. So she is a woman that I really admire. I think she's just done some wonderful things for women and just for people in general.
Trevor Freeman 43:08
Yeah, absolutely. And again, you're not the first one to mention that on the show, and I don't think that's because it's cliche. I think it's because you're right, absolutely fascinating person and leader, and just the strength of character is very evident, for sure. So, yeah, great answer. So final question, what's something about the energy sector that you're particularly excited about?
Elisa Obermann 43:29
Well, I would say, I mean, things are moving quite quickly, but also not never quick enough, yeah, and, but I think we have a lot to be excited about. So when I think about when I started my career in the energy sector, we were literally just starting to talk about renewable energy like it was a new thing, and things have evolved quite a bit since then, obviously, but in Atlantic Canada, where I'm based, so I'm in Nova Scotia, one of the things we've seen just in the past number of years has been An incredible evolution to a lot of projects being indigenous owned, indigenous LED. And I just think that's amazing so, you know, and I think that's going to continue. And it just shows, you know, that these communities are taking a lead. They're interested in ensuring that we're using clean energy, and it's also empowering them to, you know, have that ownership be able to provide investment to these projects, but it's been a big change. And so what I'm looking forward to, I guess, is what I'm saying here is that that continues, and we see more indigenous led projects, more indigenous participation in those projects, whether it be ownership, but also we've been actually working with a lot of indigenous businesses and suppliers that can get involved. And I think that will really change the energy sector. Actually, it's a lot different model from what we thought about, you know, few decades ago.
Trevor Freeman 44:49
Yeah, absolutely, I think. And again, it comes up so often on the show, the idea that there's the technological side of energy, but the societal side, and that interaction with the actual. Well stakeholders in local communities and indigenous communities. And you know, the people who are most impacted by this from a usage of energy perspective, but also a production and generation perspective. And of course, the in between, which is the transmission and distribution side of things, that's where the really interesting stories happen, and the opportunities for better collaboration and improving how we do things certainly happen. So I'm totally on the same page as you.
Elisa Obermann 45:25
Yeah, I think at the end, I always think of this like everything in the end is about people so and there's that factor that we we sometimes lose in all of this, but in the end, it comes down to the people who are involved or impacted.
Trevor Freeman 45:38
Absolutely. Elisa, thanks so much for your time. I really appreciate it. It's been great to learn more about this sector, which doesn't have enough attention on it. So happy to kind of have you explain to us and talk us through some of the exciting things that are happening. Really appreciate it.
Elisa Obermann 45:52
Yeah, no. Thank you so much for the opportunity and the time. And like you said, a lot of people don't know about the sector, so I really appreciate the you know, the time spent with you to chat a little more about it. Thank you
Trevor Freeman 46:02
For sure. We'll check back in, maybe in a year or two, and see kind of how, how far things have come.
Elisa Obermann 46:07
Yeah, that'd be great. I'd appreciate that.
Trevor Freeman 46:09
Awesome. Thanks. Elisa, take care.
Elisa Obermann 46:11
Thank you.
Trevor Freeman 46:13
Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review, it really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at [email protected].
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Hydropower is one of the oldest sources of renewable energy, powering Canada's first electric lights in 1881 and providing clean energy to six out of ten homes and businesses today. Ontario's north leads its next chapter. Trevor sums up how new hydro projects with First Nations transform remote communities, reduce diesel reliance, and support reconciliation. With billions invested in refurbishing plants and expanding the grid, it's a story of clean energy, collaboration, and Canada's sustainable future.
Related links
● Electrifying Canada's remote communities with QUEST Canada (thinkenergy episode 143): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/electrifying-canadas-remote-communities-with-quest-canada/
● Watay Power Project: https://www.wataypower.ca/
● Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114
● Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en
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Transcript:
Trevor Freeman 00:07
Welcome to a think energy short hosted by me, Trevor Freeman. This is a bite sized episode designed to be a quick summary of a specific topic or idea related to the world of energy. This is meant to round out our collective understanding of the energy sector, and will complement our normal guest interview episodes. Thanks for joining and happy listening. Hi everyone, and welcome back to think energy. I'm your host, Trevor Freeman, and today we're shifting our lens to the north. Across North America, we are seeing a resurgence of hydro power, and that includes here in Ontario, where I'm located, this province is looking to this long standing generation method to power Canada's growing and energy starved northern communities first. Let's take a quick look back at history. Canada's first electric lights were actually powered by hydro power. Back in 1881 a small hydro electricity plant in Sherbrooke, Quebec lit up the night and sparked a clean energy story that's still unfolding today, from those earliest River power lights to today, where we see more than 200 hydro stations generating over 60% of Canada's electricity and about 90% of our renewable power. Hydro power remains backbone of our clean energy system and powers six out of 10 homes and businesses. It's reliable, it's cost effective, and unlike solar wind, which can be intermittent, water, provides a steady stream of power pretty much 24/7 some plants have even been operating for more than a century. But according to water power Canada, because we've been relying on this source for so long, there is actually a lot of untapped potential that can be realized by refurbishing and modernizing our older facilities, not to mention developing new ones. We could significantly expand clean capacity, which would help us move closer to our net zero goals. As I've said before on the show, we need every tool in the toolbox, and expanding hydro power is one of those tools. So let's have a look at the North American resurgence of hydropower across the continent, there is a renewed focus on this source as a stable, long term solution to rising energy demand. Even the tech sector is taking notice. In July 2025 Google announced a $3 billion deal to secure hydro power from two US facilities in Pennsylvania through Brookfield asset management. It is the largest corporate clean energy agreement of its kind, which is a signal of how essential reliable renewable power has become. In this digital age, we need something to power these giant AI data centers, and these corporations are looking for something that's reliable and clean. The hydropower sites will be upgraded and relicensed under the agreement, and Google also intends to expand the deal into other regions of the US, Midwest and mid Atlantic, where it's investing $25 billion in new data centers. This deal signals a shift in corporate energy procurement, from simply buying renewable energy credits to offset their emissions to directly investing in specific, large scale, long duration infrastructure deals to power businesses. Of course, this definitely raises questions about the implications for how the grid and energy markets may evolve as demand in the tech and business sector continues to change and grow. That's something we'll explore at a different time. While Google's deal is driven by data and growth. Ontario's story is being shaped by geography, reconciliation and regional development. So let's have a look to the north. Like we said we would when electricity grids were first built, many northern and remote communities were left out because connecting them wasn't seen as practical or affordable. I talked about this with Gemma Pinchon from Quest Canada about a year ago on this show. Have a listen if you haven't already. With small populations spread across vast distances, it was considered too costly to run transmission lines that far north. So while the rest of the country was plugged into their provincial grids, many of these communities were left to rely on local diesel generation, a decision that might have made economic sense at the time, but definitely isn't equitable and not great for the environment. Thankfully, we're seeing some movement in this area. New investments and partnerships are changing how energy is produced and shared, and Ontario is turning once again, to our water power routes, but this time, it's doing it differently. This year, the Ontario government announced several new partnerships with First Nations that are changing the way clean energy projects take shape, emphasizing shared ownership, community leadership and lasting local benefits. New hydro developments in the north are being co created with First Nations who've lived alongside these rivers for generations. So let's have a look at some specifics. In July, the province announced plans for two new large scale hydro electric stations in northern Ontario, the Nine Mile rapids project on the Abitibi River and the Grand Rapids project on the Mattagami. Together, these could generate up to 430 megawatts of clean electricity that's enough to power. Nearly half a million homes. This is the province first large scale expansion of hydro electricity facilities in decades. What makes these projects truly historic is who's at the table. The stations will be co developed with the Taykwa Tagamu Nation and the Moose Cree First Nation, marking a shift towards shared ownership and long term community benefit. It's a model of collaboration that intertwines energy expansion with economic reconciliation, and this is just part of a larger effort. Ontario has also committed $4.7 billion to refurbish and expand existing hydro electric facilities across the province, from Northern Ontario to Niagara Cornwall and all the way out east. Together, these upgrades could add another 5000 megawatts of reliable clean power. It's a move that fits squarely within Ontario's long term plan to meet rising demand in the north with reliable low carbon power. The IESO, our system operator, predicts northern Ontario's demand for electricity will increase by 81% by 2050, higher than the provincial average. Of course, generating electricity is only half the story, as we've talked about before. It needs to reach the people in the industries that need it to make that happen, Ontario is working with transmission partners to build 1000s of kilometers of new power lines across the north. A prime example is Watay Power, the largest indigenous led grid connection project in Ontario's history. It's 1800 kilometers of transmission lines will connect more than 18,000 people across 16 remote First Nation communities to the provincial grid for the first time, ending decades of dependence on diesel. These grid expansions are also laying the groundwork for future economic development, especially in the mineral rich Ring of Fire region. The province recently signed a 39 and a half million dollar community partnership agreement with the Wabequie First Nation to support infrastructure early works and an all season road that will unlock access to critical minerals essential for EV batteries and clean technologies. Hopefully, this is a sign that we're seeing a real shift in how Canada views its north, not just as a remote region, but as a cornerstone of the country's future. The federal government is linking energy development, mining and national security in a way that we haven't seen in decades. There's renewed investment in hydro and transmission projects, plans to tap into critical minerals for the clean economy and a growing military infrastructure to reinforce sovereignty in the Arctic. It's all part of a bigger effort to power the north, protect it and ensure the communities who live there share the benefits of its growth. So what does all this mean? Ontario's investments aren't just about electricity. They're about sovereignty, sustainability and self determination. They represent a vision for Canada's north, where the local power generation, indigenous leadership and economic opportunity grow together. Still, there are important questions ahead that we'll all be watching. How will the province balance clean growth with ecological protection? How can partnerships ensure that the benefits of these projects are lasting and equitable for both the province and First Nations leading this work on their own traditional lands? In the end, the real energy transformation isn't just about megawatts. It's also about connection and making sure that we're smart about how we grow and expand our grid and our communities. Thanks for checking in. We'll chat next time. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the think =energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback, comments or an idea for a show or a guest, you can always reach us at [email protected].
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Trevor reconnects with his former professor, Dr. Rupp Carriveau from the University of Windsor, to explore how Southern Ontario's agriculture and energy sectors intersect. From powering greenhouses and managing massive industrial demand to reimagining aging wind farms and testing "atomic agriculture," together they unpack how innovation, AI, and new tech are reshaping Canada's clean energy future. Listen to episode 164 of thinkenery.
Related links
Dr. Rupp Carriveau on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rupp-carriveau-b4273823/
Environmental Energy Institute: https://www.environmentalenergyinstitute.com/
Turbulence and Energy Lab: http://www.turbulenceandenergylab.org/
Offshore Energy and Storage Society: https://www.osessociety.com/
Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114
Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en
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Transcript:
Trevor Freeman 00:07
Welcome to thinkenergy, a podcast that dives into the fast, changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at think energy at hydro ottawa.com, hi everyone, and welcome back. Today's episode brings us back to a few elements of my own personal history. Now you'll have to bear with me for a minute or two while I dive into my past in order to properly set up today's conversation, I grew up in southwestern Ontario, in and just outside the border town of Windsor, Ontario. Now for those of you not familiar with this area, Windsor and its surroundings are the most southern part of Canada. It might surprise you to know that Windsor is at the same latitude as Northern California and Rome, Italy. You can imagine that after growing up in Windsor and then living in various places around the globe, when I finally settled down here in Ottawa, adjusting to the more stereotypical Canadian winters of this northern capital, took a little bit of getting used to Windsor is so far south when you cross the border to its neighboring American city, Detroit, Michigan, you actually travel north. Have a look at a map if this seems to defy logic, but I promise you, it's true. This is the area that I grew up in. It's also where I went to school and got my engineering degree. More on that in a minute. Now, if you've ever driven down to the southwestern end of the 401 going past London and Chatham, you will notice two things. First, it is flat, very flat. You will not see a meaningful Hill anywhere in sight. I often joke with people that I used to toboggan when we did get any meaningful snow off of highway overpasses, because that was the only hill we could find. I was only partly joking, and I have indeed tobogganed off of said overpasses in my young and foolish days. But that is a story for another time. That brings us to the second thing you'll see, which is wind turbines. A lot of wind turbines. They are seemingly everywhere, stretching as far as you can see, southwestern Ontario is a hotbed of wind energy generation. Finally, a hint at why I'm going on about this part of the province on an energy podcast. But before we get into it, there's one other thing to touch on, and that is the fact that this area is also home to a large number of greenhouses growing produce year-round, as well as manufacturing. Windsor and its surrounding area is the automotive capital of Canada, with a number of plants from major car companies, as well as a supporting ecosystem of parts manufacturers. Incidentally, that's where I started my career, working as an environmental engineer for one of the automakers, and many members of my family have also worked or still work in that industry. The reason I bring up greenhouses in the auto industry is because they have some very high energy demand profiles, and that is how we get for me going on nostalgically about the area I grew up in, to our conversation today, I recently caught up with one of my engineering professors, Dr Rupp Carriveau, about the work that he and his colleagues have been doing that ties all of this together. And I thought it would be great to have him on the show to talk about that. Dr. Carriveau is the director of the Environmental Energy Institute and co-director of the Turbulence and Energy Lab and the CO lead of AGUwin at the University of Windsor. Back in the day, he was my fluid dynamics professor. But today, he balances his teaching duties with research into energy systems futures and advanced agricultural systems. He is a founder of the offshore energy and storage society, a recipient of the University Scholar Award, and has been named to Canada's clean 50 for his contributions to clean capitalism. Dr Rupp Carriveau, welcome to the show.
Dr Rupp Carriveau 03:59
Trevor, great to be here. Thanks.
Trevor Freeman 04:01
Yeah. So, Rupp, the last time we chatted, well, so you and I chatted a couple weeks ago, but before that, the last time that you and I interacted, I was in third year university. You were my fluid dynamics Prof. So, in addition to your professorial duties, you're now the director of the environmental Energy Institute at the University of Windsor. So, there's two questions around that. First off, how did you end up going from my fluid dynamics prof a number of years ago, probably close to 20 years ago now, to running this institute? And tell us a little bit about what the Institute does.
Dr Rupp Carriveau 04:40
Sure. Though. So, thanks. Yeah, and very memorable Trevor, because I, you know, I remember you well. And, yeah, that was, that was a very nice class that we had. I remember, well, I remember your colleagues too.
Trevor Freeman 04:54
If there's one thing I do, well, it's, it's be memorable, and you can take that however you want.
Dr Rupp Carriveau 04:58
That is, that is. Something to be said for that. Yeah, thanks for that question. So I should point out that in addition to EEI, I am a co-director in the Turbulence and Energy Lab, which is really where all of the EEI initiatives have started from, that's a lab that I co supervise with Dr David Ting in mechanical engineering and the nuts and bolts, the very serious engineering side of things, comes out of the Turbulence and Energy Lab. EEI kind of came about to handle topics that were, frankly speaking, less interesting to Dr Ting. So, things that push more, a little bit more into policy wider systems looks at things as opposed to, you know, pure thermodynamics and energy efficiency type pursuits, which underpin a lot of the EEI policy pieces, but are sort of beyond the scope of what turbulence and energy lab does. So those two things, and then more recently, actually, I'm co lead on, AGUwin, which is like a center of excellence, emerging Center of Excellence at the University of Windsor. So, Agriculture U Windsor is a group of about 40 professors that do work in agriculture in some shape or form. And we've, we've, we've taken to organizing that movement in seeking sort of group funding proposals, developing curriculum and organized sort of platforms to help industry in agriculture. And it's, it's really taking off, which I'm really excited about my extremely hard-working colleagues and CO lead, Isabel Barrett-Ng, she in particular, has been really driving a lot of really cool initiatives ahead and all the people that work with us. So, yeah, lots, lots happening at the University since I saw you last. But you know, time has a way of helping with that, people find ways to find efficiencies and get to do and build on, build on, hopefully incremental progress.
Trevor Freeman 07:08
Yeah, very cool. And you're teasing a few of the areas our conversation is going to go today, that sort of intersection between agriculture and obviously, this is an energy podcast, and so how does agriculture and the way we're moving in with agriculture impacts energy and vice versa. So, we're definitely going to get to that in a minute, I think, for our listeners that are not familiar with Southern Ontario, and I haven't talked about Southern Ontario on the podcast a lot, but people that know me know I will gladly talk about what goes on in the very southern part of our country. It's where I grew up. Help us paint a picture of what Southern Ontario is like. So, in the context of energy, what makes this area of Ontario unique?
Dr Rupp Carriveau 07:50
Well, it's that's a really good question, and I'm glad you phrased it that way, because I think it gets taken for granted. And also, folks, folks don't know energy isn't in the headlines every day, and if it is, it's not a headline that everybody pays attention to. But the southwestern Ontario region, if you take the 401 west of London, you'll start to see a high concentration of wind. So, there's a significant wind corridor in the region, and that's because it's very flat, so the whole area used to be a lake bed, and so we have very fertile agricultural lands as a result of that. And we also have very few obstacles to fetch, which is a huge aspect of how wind carries over the lakes, and is, you know, not, not obstructed. And so it's like you have offshore resources onshore, which is completely ideal. Also, we have, as it may be, we have massive natural gas resources in the area, in sort of the subterranean space of Devonian reefs for natural gas storage. We have natural gas generation facilities down around the Windsor area that help with provincial peaking and there is some solar in the region, because it is the Leamington Kingsville area is referred to as the sun parlor of Ontario. And as a result, we have a lot of under glass agriculture there, which benefits, obviously, directly from solar resources. And then we have solar photovoltaic that takes advantage of that sun as well. So there's, there's a lot happening here energy wise.
Trevor Freeman 09:38
Yeah, and there's a lot on the demand side of things as well. So, you mentioned the greenhouses, which are an up and coming, you know, source of demand draws on our grid. There's also a big manufacturing base. Talk a little bit about the manufacturing base in the area. Yeah, yeah. And that's that gets into my next question is talking about some of the specific, unique energy needs of greenhouses. I think on the manufacturing side, you know, you mentioned the auto industry and the parts industry that supports it, you're seeing more. There's a battery plant being built now I think that, I think people have a sense of that, but greenhouses are this thing that I think a lot of folks don't think about. So, you talked about the magnitude of the load, the lighting side of things. What else is this like, a 24/7 load? Is this sector growing like? Tell us a little bit about, you know where things are going with greenhouses?
Dr Rupp Carriveau 09:53
Yeah, thanks. So, yeah, I was, I was thinking about generation and, yeah, demand is. Significant we have. You know, Windsor has laid claim to Canada's automotive capital, and while I'm biased, I'd like to think it still is. And so we have significant manufacturing around the automotive industry, either automotive OEMs or tier one parts makers that have significant draws. We have Stellantis. Every minivan comes out of this area has come out of this area. The electric Dodge Charger comes out of this area. But there are engine plants for Ford, but they're also now, you know, sort of next generation transport technologies. You've talking about battery manufacturing. So, there's an enormous LG consortium with Stellantis here that's doing battery manufacturing. And so, these are huge loads that that add to existing and growing loads in the greenhouse space, which, again, I'll just mention it now, is something that isn't well understood. And we did a, we did a study for the province a couple years, three, four years ago. Now, I think grid Innovation Fund project that looked at sort of really getting into granular detailing of the loads that come with a lit greenhouse. A lot of people don't appreciate that a lit greenhouse, when switched on, depending on the lighting technology, depending on how it's used, can be like a 50-megawatt load, which is a significant load. And just imagine that's one so they can come on quickly, and they are non-trivial, significant loads. And so, this is something that we looked at trying to develop distributed energy resource sort of solutions for, because, simply speaking, you can't put up a new transmission line overnight, and we don't want to economically constrain the growth of the sector. Sure, yeah. I mean, it's, it's not a simple thing to characterize, because what you can take away from this is that these greenhouse developers are business dynamos, and frankly speaking, many of them do very well, because they're very good at what they do, and with the resources they have, they can largely do what they want. And if, if the infrastructure isn't there, they will build it so. So, you'll have folks that are operating off the grid, essentially not off the gas grid, of course, but they're using gas for cogeneration purposes, to produce heat for their crops, but also the electricity for their lights. So that is one aspect of it that further complicates how to figure out what these loads on the grid will be. But for the most part, of course, the grid provides quite clean and quite affordable electricity in the province, and you know where they can they want to be able to connect to the grid. Now, lights are designed to extend the growing day and extend the growing season as well. So, in terms of when they're switched on and how they're switched on, that is highly variable, and that is also something that is, I would say, in development, folks are looking at different ways to use intermittent lighting to be conscious of when peaking happens. It is dispatchable in a way, in that some growers are able to turn their lights off to avoid, you know, peaking charges. But again, there's a lot to manage. And, and it's, it's very complicated, both on the grid side and, and for the greenhouse grower.
Trevor Freeman 14:38
Yeah, so you mentioned natural gas for cogen for heating as well. So, as we look to decarbonize all different aspects of the sector, we talk often on the show of what are the specific areas where decarbonization might be challenging. Is, is greenhouses one of those areas? And, and what are the options available for heating these spaces? Like, is it realistic to think that there's an electric solution here, or what? What's happening in that sector related to decarbonization?
Dr Rupp Carriveau 15:10
Again, you've hit on a real sort of hot button issue for the for the sector, the trouble with natural gas is that it's spectacular. Oh, it's storable. It's dispatchable. It's a triple threat for greenhouses in the best way possible, because you can make your heat, you can make your electricity, and the plants crave CO2, and that comes out of the flue gas on the other side of the combustion reaction. So, you know, when you swing in there and you say, Oh, I've got this great new solution. It's called hydrogen. We'll burn hydrogen and we won't have these nasty CO2 release. And they're like, Okay, who's going to replace my CO2? So, it's a difficult fuel to displace. Now, admittedly, people understand that, you know, that's where we really need to go. And is, is electric? You know, electrification the path. So, people talk about, people talk about heat pumps, people talk about electric boilers. And then, as I mentioned, people talked about, you know, we've, we've also looked at the idea of blending hydrogen into a natural gas feed for existing infrastructure to, you know, because, because not all of the CO2, that is, you know, released is, is taken down by the plants. And so could you get to a magic blend where it's just the amount of CO2 that you need is what goes into the other side, and then there's nothing left after the plants take what they need. So, there's a lot of things that are being looked at. It is again, a challenging space to operate in, because it's highly competitive. Getting really granular. Data is very sensitive, because this, this, this is a, you know, it's a game of margins, and it's in its high stakes production. So to get in there and sort of be in the way is, is difficult. So, this work is being done. We're participating in a lot of this work. We just finished a study for the province, a Hydrogen Innovation Fund study on looking at the integration of hydrogen into the greenhouse space. And it was, it was pretty revelatory for us.
Trevor Freeman 17:36
So is the exhaust from burning natural gas on site. Does that get recycled through the greenhouse and therefore captured to some degree? Do we know how much you kind of hinted at finding out that sweet spot? Do we know how much of that gets captured?
Dr Rupp Carriveau 17:53
Yeah, so the short answer is yes. So, they have the cogen engines have scrubbers on them, and these, these machines are spectacularly capable of being tuned the combustion and the professionals that operate them at the greenhouse facilities are artists, and that they can get the sort of combustion profile a certain way, and so that that flue gas will go into the greenhouse, but to know exactly how much is being taken down, that is an area of active research, and we don't, we don't know that answer yet. There are people that are looking at it, and you can imagine it's kind of a provocative number for the sector. So, they're being very careful about how they do it.
Trevor Freeman 18:36
I'm sure, I'm sure. Okay, let's, let's park that just for a minute here, and jump back to something you mentioned earlier. You talked about one how flat Southern Ontario is, and it took me leaving, leaving the county before I really knew what skiing and tobogganing and everything else was. So, there's a lot of wind power generation. And for anyone listening, yeah, as rip mentioned, if you ever drive down the 401 going towards Windsor, you'll just start to see these massive wind turbines kind of everywhere you look. So, help us understand how these turbines, you know, you look out over a field and you see, you know, 2030, of them more in your line of sight. How do they connect to our provincial grid? How do the contracts work? Like, who gets that power? Give us a little bit of a sense of how that works.
Dr Rupp Carriveau 19:28
For sure. Yeah, well, so what most people don't realize, and again, it's not something that's talked about, and if it is, I don't know people are necessarily paying attention to it, but, but you know the comment I'll get from relatives we talked about Thanksgiving. So, you know people, because they know I'm a wind person, they'll be like, 'Hey, I was driving down the road and I saw they weren't spinning with, what's going on? Are they broken or what?' Well, you know, because we, we've got some pro wind and some non pro wind folks in the in the family, so it's an exciting time for me. But you know, and I mentioned that the greenhouses I'm working with are often starved for utility supply. And they said, well, how can that be? The turbines are right there. They're sharing the same space, right? And most people don't realize that. Really, I would say 95% of the wind in our corridor is put on a transmission line and sent up to, effectively, to Toronto, to be distributed throughout the province, which is great, but it's not really a local asset. And that was sort of what inspired us when we saw these two sorts of juxtaposed. We thought maybe you could turn these assets into something that acted as really a new type of distributed energy resource, and that you've got a transmission connected asset that's currently under contract, but if that contract could be modified, then the fiscal connections could potentially be modified so you could have local distribution, let's say at a time of maybe at a time of transmission curtailment, maybe under different conditions. So again, looking into the physical plausibility of it was part of our study, and then doing some sort of economic investigation of how that would work, having a nearly 20-year-old asset all of a sudden springing into a new role in a new life, where it continues to perform transmission duties for the province at large, but it also serves local needs in the production, let's say, of hydrogen through an electrolyzer, or just plain electrons turning lights on. That is something that isn't possible yet. Regulatory reasons exist for that that would require some, some significant changes. But it was a really interesting exercise to go through to investigate how that could happen.
Trevor Freeman 22:08
Yeah, so there's just trying to understand how this work. There's someone who owns these turbines. Some conglomerate somewhere, you know, Canadian, not Canadian, who knows. They contract with the Independent Electricity System Operator who operates the grid in the province. And they basically say, yeah, well, look, we'll provide you with X amount of power on some contract, and when ISO needs it, they call on it. How long do those contracts last? Is that a 10-year contract? A 20-year contract?
Dr Rupp Carriveau 22:35
So, they are in Ontario. The ones that I'm familiar with for 20 years. So it's possible there are others. I know. I have a there's a farm that operates in PEI that has a nice 30 year PPA. So the longer you can get, the better. Yeah, and these, these power purchase agreements are, are wonderful for developers, because they're known entities, doing the math on your finances is really straightforward with these contracts. And frankly speaking, when you had a sector that needed to be brought up from nothing, they were very necessary. They were very necessary. And but those contracts, and they're and they're locked down, as much as we try to, you know, persuade the province to get crazy, to amuse us with these new, newfangled ways of of connecting to people, commerce wise, through energy, they are not interested so far, at least in and they're like, let's finish these out, and then we can talk your crazy ideas, you know, and so, but that's we're getting glare, because I would say many, many, many farms in the province will be coming up on the sun setting end of Their power purchase agreements in the coming five, six years.
Trevor Freeman 24:03
Yeah, yeah. Which brings me to my next point, of the assets themselves, the actual physical turbine, I assume last longer than 20 years. You're going to build one of these things. You know, 20 years is not its end of life. So what are the options available today? You talked about regulatory barriers. We talk about regulatory barriers on this show often, what are, what are the options today for a wind farm that is at its end of contract? Does it look at re contracting? Can it kind of direct source to someone else? Like, what are the options available for an owner?
Dr Rupp Carriveau 24:40
Yeah, well, to me, it's an exciting time, because it could be work for us. We get excited about this. I think it could be a source of anxiety for owners, because there's nothing better than that long term contract. So many of them will try to apply for things like a medium, a new medium term length contract from the. Province, like an MT two, I think they're called. There are other contract types that are possible, but there'll be, it'll be a highly competitive landscape for those, and the in the province won't be able to give everyone one of these contracts. So some of these, some of these operators, will likely have to look at other options which may be going into the spot market, potentially, you know, getting into the capacity game by getting a battery on site and firming up their ability to provide power when necessary or provide capacity. And then there's a there isn't a relatively recent regulatory development in the around the middle of July, the province said, you know, if you're a non emitting generator and you're not under contract, you could provide virtual power someone else who might need it, if they're looking if they're a class, a customer that's trying to avoid peak charges. You know, rather than that class a customer buys a battery behind the meter and physically reduce their peaks. They could potentially virtually reduce their peaks by setting up a virtual power purchase agreement with another supplier. So these, these off contract spinning assets could have an opportunity to get into this game of peak relief. Which, which could be very lucrative. Because, based on last year's provincial global adjustment charges at large, you're looking at being paid something on the order of about $72,000 a megawatt hour for the, for the for the for the megawatt hours in question, which, which, of course, you know, try to get as many as you can. .
Trevor Freeman 26:31
Yeah. So there's a couple of things there. Bear with me while I connect a few dots for our listeners. So on different shows, we talk about different things. Global adjustment is one of them. And we've been talking here about these long term contracts. Global adjustment, as you might remember from previous conversations, is one of those mechanisms that bridges the gap between the spot market price, you know, the actual commodity cost of electricity that's out there, and some of the built-in cost to run the system, which includes these long term contracts. So there's a there's a fixed cost to run the system, global adjustment helps bridge that gap. The next concept here that is important to remember is this class, a strategy where the largest the largest customers, electricity customers in the province, have the opportunity to adjust how they are build global adjustment based on their contribution to the most intensive demand peaks in the province over the course of a year. So during a really high demand period, when everybody needs electricity, if they can reduce their demand, there's significant savings. And so what you're saying is there's this new this new ability for kind of a virtual connection, where, if I'm a big facility that has a high demand, and I contract with a generator, like a wind turbine that's not in contract anymore, I can say, hey, it's a peak time now I need to use some of your capacity to offset, you know, some of my demand, and there's those significant savings there. So you're absolutely right. That's a new thing in the province. We haven't had that ability up until just recently. So super fascinating, and that kind of connects our two topics today, that the large demand facilities in southern Ontario and these these generators that are potentially nearing the end of their contract and looking for what else might happen. So are you guys navigating that conversation between the greenhouses or the manufacturers and the generators?
Dr Rupp Carriveau 28:49
I'm so glad you asked. And here comes, here comes a shameless plug. Yeah? So yes. So there's a spin off company from the turbulence and Energy Lab, and it's called jailbreak labs. And jailbreak labs really represents sort of the space that is more commercial than research, but it also was sort of spurned, spurred from research. So jailbreak Labs has developed a registry, and we've been providing some webinars as well. So this, again, this is a company that that is essentially run by students, that this registry allows generators and consumers to ultimately find each other so that, so that these kinds of connections can be made. Because, as you may well imagine, there is no guarantee that the wind will be blowing at the time that you need it so, so and your load may be such that you need a different type of generation profile. So it needs to be profiling on the generation side. There needs to be profiling on the customer side. Yeah, and, you know, we've been doing this on our own for years. It was the time was right for us to sort of step in and say, because we were following this, we were real fanboys of this, of this reg, even before it came into play. And we kept bugging, you know, OEB for meetings and ISO and they, begrudgingly, to their credit, would chat with us about it, and then the next thing we know, it's announced that it's that it's happening. Was very exciting. So, so, yes, so we're really interested in seeing this happen, because it seems like such a unique, we're thrilled, because we're always interested in this sort of Second Life for assets that already have been depreciated and they're clean energy assets. Let's get everything we can out of them and to have this dynamic opportunity for them, and that will help Class A customers too hard for us to ignore.
Trevor Freeman 30:56
And you mentioned the last time we chatted about building a tool that helps evaluate and kind of injecting a little bit of AI decision making into this. Talk to us about that tool a little bit.
Dr Rupp Carriveau 31:08
Yeah. So we have a, we have a tool called quantract which is basically playing on the idea of quantifying all the risk and opportunity in in a contract. So it's really a contract visualization tool. Another way to think of it as a real time Net Present Value tool that allows renewable energy stakeholders to really, evaluate the value of their investment by not only understanding the physical life left in an asset. Let's say that a wind farm that's, you know, at 20 years and it looks like we may need to replace some blades. Do we just walk away and say, look at it. We had a good run contracts over, you know, we made some money. Let's sell the assets as they are. Or do we say, you know, I'm looking into this vppa game, and we could do okay here, but I'm not exactly sure how that's going to work and when. And so this, this tool that we've developed, will do things like will first of all identify all risk factors, and risk includes opportunities and then we'll profile them, and then builds them into basically what is more or less a glorified discounted cash flow model. So it is a way of measuring the potential value of investment in the AI space. I mean, the AI piece of it is that we have developed agents that will actually identify other things that are less, less sort of noticeable to people. In fact, this regulatory change is one of the things that our AI agents would have been looking for. Okay, now it pre it predated our tool going online, so we didn't see it, but it's the kind of thing that we'd be looking for. So the agents look for news, they look for changes online, and then, and then what happens is, they got brought, they get brought into a profiler. The profiler then determines the probability of or makes an estimate of the probability that this risk will occur. IE, a regulatory change will happen. IE, battery plant will come to town at a certain time. IE, a Costco facility will come in. Then we'll determine the potential magnitude. So there'll be uncertainty in the occurrence, there'll be uncertainty in the magnitude, and there'll be uncertainty in the timing. So we have basically statistical distribution functions for each one of those things, the likelihood of it happening, the magnitude and the timing. And so those are all modeled in so that people can push a button and, say, with this level of certainty your investment would be, would be worth this much. And that's dynamic. It's in real time. So it's changing constantly. It's being updated constantly. And so no so that that is something that goes in, and one of these virtual power purchase agreements would be one of the types of things that would go into this sort of investment timeline?
Trevor Freeman 34:22
Yeah, so it's giving these owners of these assets better data to make a decision about what comes next, as you said, and as we're talking I'm kind of doing the math here. If these are typically 20 year contracts, that's bringing us back to, you know, the mid, early, 2000s when we were really pushing to get off coal. So a lot of these assets probably started in and around that time. So you've probably got a whole bunch of customers, for lack of a better term, ready to start making decisions in the next you know, half a decade or so of what do I do with my. Sets. Have you seen this? Has it been used in the real world yet? Or is, are you getting close to that? Like, where are you at in development?
Dr Rupp Carriveau 35:07
Yeah, it actually started. It's funny. It started a little a little bit even before this craze. A couple years ago, we had, we had a manufacturer in our county come to us with, they had a great interest in, in just, just they were trying to be proactive about avoiding carbon tax and so, and they wanted to develop a new generation technology close to their facility. And so we used it there since that time. Yeah, so, so it was field proven that was a still a research contract, because they were the technology that they were interested in was, was, was not off the shelf. But since that time, we got a chance, because we represent Canada in the International Energy Agency, task 43 on wind energy digitalization. And so one of the mandates there was to develop a robust and transparent tools for investment decision support using digital twins. And we had a German partner in Fraunhofer Institute that had developed nice digital twin that would provide us remaining useful life values for things like blades, you know, towers, foundations, etc, and those are, again, those are all costs that just plug into our but they did. They didn't have a framework of how to work that into an investment decision other than, you know, you may have to replace this in three years. Okay, well, that's good to know, but we need the whole picture to make that decision, and that's sort of what we were trying to bring so the short answer is, yes, we're getting a lot of interest now, which is thrilling for us, but it's, I'll be honest with you, it's not, it's not simple, like, you know, I I've talked about it a bunch of times, so I'm pretty good at talking about it, but, but the doing it is still, it's computationally intensive and in the end, it's still an estimate. It's a, it's a, it's a calculated, quantified estimate, but it's an estimate. I think what we like about it is it's better than saying, Well, I have a hunch that it's going to go this way, but we could get beat by the hunches too. Yeah, totally, right. So, so, you know, I'm not trying to sell people things that, like I we have to be transparent about it. It's still probability.
Trevor Freeman 37:35
Well, I think if there's, if there's one thing that is very apparent, as we are well into this energy transition process that we talk about all the time here on the show. It's that the pace of change is is one of the things that's like no other time we are we are seeing things change, and that means both our demand is growing, our need to identify solutions is growing the way that we need to build out the grid and utilize the ers and utilize all these different solutions is growing at a rate that we haven't seen before, and therefore uncertainty goes up. And so to your point, yeah, we need help to make these decisions. We need better ways of doing it than just, as you say, having a hunch. That doesn't mean it's foolproof. It doesn't mean it's a guarantee.
Dr Rupp Carriveau 38:27
Nope, it is not a guarantee.
Trevor Freeman 38:30
Very cool. So Rupp, this is a great conversation. It's really fascinating to talk about to me, two areas of the energy sector that aren't really understood that well. I think the agriculture side of things, not a lot of people think about that as a major demand source. But also wind, I think we talk about solar a lot. It's a little bit more ubiquitous. People's neighbors have solar on their roofs. But wind is this unless you drive through Southern Ontario or other parts of the province where there's a lot of wind, you don't see it a lot. So it's fascinating to kind of help understand where these sectors are going. Is there anything else that the Institute is working on that that's worth chatting about here, or is what we've talked about, you know, kind of filling your day, in your students days?
Dr Rupp Carriveau 39:15
Well, actually there is something we haven't talked about the nuclear option. Literally, literally the nuclear literally the nuclear option. Yeah, so we've been really thrilled to have a growing relationship with Canadian Nuclear Laboratories, which is much closer to you than it is to me. And specifically in the connection of small modular reactors to meet these growing agricultural loads. So I have a science colleague at the University of Windsor, Dr drew Marquart, who was all hot and bothered about these s. Mrs. And he's like, we should drop one of these SMRs in Leamington. Then I this, this part I really enjoyed, because it's obviously so he came from Oak Ridge National Laboratories in the States, and he's and he's been at CNL as well. So he's fully indoctrinated into the nuclear space. But it just didn't occur to him that that would be provocative or controversial at all, that there wouldn't be some social he, you know, he's like, we can do the math. And I said, Oh yeah, yeah, we can do the math. But I'm like, I think you're missing something. I think you're missing something, right? So, but so it's, it's a super fascinating topic, and we're trying to connect, physically connect. So just before the weekend, I was in the turbulence and Energy Lab, and we were trying to commission what we believe is North America's first we're calling it a model synthetic, small modular reactor, synthetic being the key word, and that it's non nuclear, okay? And so it's non nuclear. What it what it is really and if I'm going to de glamorize it for a second, it's a mini steam thermal power plant, which doesn't embody every SMR design, but many SMRs are designed around this sort of where you've got a nuclear reaction that provides the heat, and then after that, it's kind of a steam thermal power plant. Our interest is in this physical little plant being connected to small electrolyzer, being connected to small thermal battery, being connected to a lab scale electric battery and being connected to a lab scale fully automated inlet, cucumber, small cucumber, greenhouse, mini cubes greenhouse, all this in our lab. The exciting thing around this is, you know, I I've said that I think nuclear technology needs to get out from behind the walls of nuclear facilities for people to start to appreciate it, and by that, to start doing that, you have to take the nuclear part out, which, to me, is not necessarily a deal breaker in terms of these dynamic issues that we want to solve. You know, because nukes have traditionally been said, Well, you know they're not that. You know, you can't just ramp them up and down, and that's true, you know, and small modular reactors are supposed to be considerably more nimble, but there's still lots of challenges that have to be solved in terms of having how it is an asset that is provides copious energy, but does so maybe not, not as dynamic, certainly, as a gas turbine. That how does it? How do you make it nimble, right? How do you partner it up with the right complimentary other grid assets to take advantage of what it does so well, which is crank out great amounts of heat and electricity so, so effortlessly, right? And so that's, that's sort of what we're trying to do, and connecting it to what we're calling atomic agriculture. I don't know that's a good name or not. I like it, but, but, but, yeah, so that that's another thing that we're that we're flirting with right now. We're working on. We've done a few. We've had a few contracts with Canadian Nuclear Laboratories to get us this far. We did everything computationally. We're continuing to do computational studies with them. They develop their own hybrid energy systems, optimizer software, HISO, which we use, and we are now trying to put it into sort of the hardware space. So again, just the idea that physically looking at the inertia of spinning up a turbine, the little gap, the little sort of steam powered turbine that we have in the lab that's run by an electric boiler. But our hope is to, ultimately, we're going to get the electric boiler to be mimicking the sort of reaction heating dynamics of a true reactor. So by, but through electrical control. So we'll imitate that by having sort of data from nuclear reactions, and then we'll sort of get an electrical signal analog so that we can do that and basically have a non nuclear model, small modular reactor in the lab.
Trevor Freeman 44:14
Very cool, very neat. Well, Rupp, this has been a great conversation. I really appreciate it. We do always end our interviews with a series of questions here, so I'm going to jump right into those. What's a book that you've read that you think everyone should read?
Dr Rupp Carriveau 44:31
I would say any of the Babysitters Club. That's as high as I get in the literary hierarchy. I'm barely literate so and I thoroughly enjoyed reading those books with my daughters that they were great. So I recommend any, any of the Babysitters Club titles. I mean that completely seriously, I that was the peak of my that are dog man, yeah,
Trevor Freeman 44:56
I'm about six months removed from what i. Was about an 18 month run where that's, that's all I read with my youngest kiddo. So they've, they've just moved on to a few other things. But yes, I've been steeped in the Babysitter's Club very recently.
Dr Rupp Carriveau 45:11
So good. So, you know, absolutely.
Trevor Freeman 45:14
So same question, but for a movie or a show, what's something that you recommend?
Dr Rupp Carriveau 45:17
Everyone thrilled with that question. If you're looking for a good, good true story. I've always been romantically obsessed with the ghost in the darkness, the true story of, I guess, a civil engineer trying to solve a problem of man eating lions and Tsavo. That's a, that's a, that's a tremendous movie with Val Kilmer and Michael Douglas. Yeah, that's good then, and I think for something a little more light hearted and fun, a big fan of the way, way back and youth and revolt, nice.
Trevor Freeman 46:03
If someone offered you a free round trip flight anywhere in the world, where would you go?
Dr Rupp Carriveau 46:05
I don't really like flying, I got to be honest. But if, if I was forced onto the plane, I think, I think I go to Japan. Nice. Have you been before? No, I haven't. I'd like to go. Okay, cool. You're not the first guest that has said that someone else was very That's understandable. Yeah, who is someone that you admire? I would say truly selfless people that help people when no one's looking and when it's not being tabulated for likes those people are who I aspire to be more like nice.
Trevor Freeman 46:47
And last question, what's something about the energy sector or its future that you're really excited about?
Dr Rupp Carriveau 46:53
I think maybe power to the people I really like, the movement of distributed energy resources. I'm sure there's a limit to it, but I think, I think if we have more responsibility for our own power production, and again, I can see there are limits where it's probably, you know, there's, there's a point where it's too much. I'm all for, for major centralized coordination and the security in the reliability that goes with that. But I think a little bit more on the distributed side would be nice, because I think people would understand energy better. They would they would own it more, and I think our grid would probably increase in its resiliency.
Trevor Freeman 47:37
Yeah, that's definitely something that no matter the topic, it seems, is a part of almost every conversation I have here on the show. It works its way in, and I think that's indicative of the fundamental role that decentralizing our energy production and storage is is already playing and is going to play in the years to come as we kind of tackle this energy transition drove this has been a really great conversation. I appreciate you taking the time to talk to us, and that's great to catch up. Great to chat with you again.
Dr Rupp Carriveau 48:11
Total privilege for me. Trevor, I really appreciate it. Outstanding job.
Trevor Freeman 48:15
Thanks for having me. Yeah, great to chat. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast, don't forget to subscribe. Wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at [email protected].
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Rooftop solar. Backup batteries. Smart EV chargers. Distributed energy resources (DERs) are changing the way electricity is generated, managed, and used in Ontario. In this thinkenergy short, Trevor Freeman breaks down how DERs can reduce your carbon footprint, provide backup power during outages, and help you manage your energy costs. Listen in for how net metering, load displacement, and evolving tech partnerships are reshaping the future of the grid and giving you more control over your energy.
Related links
Breaking down Distributed Energy Resources, with Hydro Ottawa's Trevor Freeman (thinkenergy episode 146): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/breaking-down-distributed-energy-resources-with-hydro-ottawas-trevor-freeman/
Consumer impact: revisiting grid modernization with Capgemini Canada (thinkenergy episode 162): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/consumer-impact-revisiting-grid-modernization-with-capgemini-canada/
Save on Energy programs: https://saveonenergy.ca/en/For-Business-and-Industry/Programs-and-incentives/Retrofit-Program
Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114
Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en
To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405
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http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/
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Transcript:
Welcome to a think energy short hosted by me, Trevor Freeman. This is a bite sized episode designed to be a quick summary of a specific topic or idea related to the world of energy. This is meant to round out our collective understanding of the energy sector, and will complement our normal guest interview episodes. Thanks for joining and happy listening. Hi everyone, and welcome back. Today on think energy, I'm going to talk about distributed energy resources, or DERs. Now, if you've been listening to the show for a long time or even a short time, you will have heard us talk about DERs many times before, and for good reason. DERs are an important and growing part of our energy lives. About a year ago, I did an episode diving into what DERs are, and I encourage you to go back and listen to that one. But today I thought I do a quick refresh and talk about some of the most common ways that DERs are used. So, let's dive right in. First the refresh. DERs or distributed energy resources, are simply pieces of equipment that can generate or store power, generally on the smaller scale size of things, and spread throughout the grid. So, we're not talking about large scale, centralized generation plants here, but that small to medium scale, kind of think rooftop solar or batteries that are sized for home or facility use. And generally, when we're talking about DERs, we're focused on renewable technology like solar panels or batteries, and in some cases, you know, smaller wind turbines. For the most part on this show, that's what we're focused on. However, there are sort of non-renewable DERs as well, and we'll actually touch on that a little bit later. So, let's dive into what some of the reasons are why someone would want a der there's a couple of different reasons. The first is for backup during an outage. So, using solar panels, especially if paired with a battery, can give you some backup if there's an outage from the grid, whether that's a storm or an accident or something like that, that backup power can be focused on your key devices or systems or appliances, or if your storage is big enough, or your system is big enough, it may be used to power your whole home for a period of Time. Of course, if you're using one of those nonrenewable sources that I mentioned, like a fossil fuel power generator, for example, then your backup supply can last longer, really, as long as you've got fuel, but it's not clean, so you will be producing carbon emissions. One emerging technology that we'll likely see more of in the future is using an electric vehicle for this purpose. So, while there's only a few different models that allow this right now, the Ford f1 50 is one of them, and there are some safety and regulatory considerations before you go ahead and do this, we can expect to see more of this in the future as the technology advances and it becomes a bit more widespread. Another reason for DERs is financial. Installing a der can actually help you save money every month, whether that's just by reducing what you consume from the grid or by pushing back unused generation to the grid for credits. And I'll touch on this a little bit more shortly. Finally, if we're talking about those renewable DERs, they produce clean energy. So that's carbon, free emissions, free energy. And if you are concerned about your carbon footprint, you're trying to decarbonize and reduce the amount of emissions that you cause. DERs, renewable DERs are a great way to do that. You can lower your carbon footprint by reducing how much you draw from the electricity grid and any carbon emissions that are associated with that. Okay, so let's go back to the financial use case for a minute and talk about the different ways that that's possible. I'll be speaking about the Ontario context here. So, if you're listening from outside of Ontario, you'll have to do a little bit of your own research to figure out what options exist where you live. One option to set up your der for financial reasons is net metering, which I kind of alluded to earlier. Net metering is a setup for renewable generation sources only that allows you to use as much of your generation as you can to power your home when you're using it, and then push back whatever you don't use to the grid. Whatever you push back to the grid, will give you a credit on your bill that you can use to offset the electricity charge portion of your bill. Another option would be load displacement. With this arrangement, you can generate electricity exclusively for your own use, so you will reduce the amount that you pull from the grid, and that will save you money, but you don't push anything back to the grid, and therefore you don't earn any credits. And finally, there are standalone generation setups. This arrangement involves pushing all of your generation back to the grid for some agreed upon compensation. While there used to be programs for small scale standalone generation so you might be familiar and on. Ontario with the fit or the MicroFit programs that existed about 10 years ago. These programs are closed today, and generally only large generators have a standalone arrangement. Now, like any technology, DERs are not free to install. In fact, they can be quite pricey in some cases, but because they provide benefit to the grid. There are incentive programs out there to help reduce the upfront costs. Here in Ontario, the ISOs save on energy programs provide an incentive to any customer type, from residential all the way up to large commercial to install rooftop solar, and homeowners can access additional funding to install the battery along with their solar. If you're interested in doing this, or you want to learn a little bit more, you can reach out to your LDC, visit our website. If you're in hydro Ottawa's territory, or visit save on energy.ca. In the near future, you will also likely see more utilities wanting to partner with der owners. I talked about this a little bit in my last episode with Andrea Nusser About grid modernization here at hydro Ottawa, we are working on a technology project that will be launched next year that will enable der owners to leverage their devices for an incentive to help manage the grid in targeted areas. It's pretty exciting stuff, and it's really the next wave of distributed energy resources on our grid and how we're going to interact with them. It's pretty exciting. So, there you have it. That's a quick summary of the different ways that DERs are used. If you're looking at installing a der in your home, whether that's solar or battery or anything else, or for your business for that matter, have a look at our website. Make sure you fill out the application forms and reach out to us so that we can help get you set up and get you using your der thanks for tuning in to another think energy short and look forward to chatting with you next time. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at [email protected].
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Grid modernization goes beyond smart meters. It's making the grid more responsive, customer-focused, and resilient. Andrea Nuesser, Grid Modernization Leader at Capgemini Canada, joins thinkenergy to explain how smart tech, real-time data, and evolving customer relationships are changing how electricity is delivered, managed, and consumed. From account numbers to engaged consumers, electric vehicles to home energy, listen in to learn how the grid of the future will shape how you consume energy.
Related links
IESO Peaks Perks Program: https://saveonenergy.ca/en/For-Your-Home/Peak-Perks
Dr. Andrea Newer on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-andrea-nuesser-201147188/
Capgemini: https://www.capgemini.com/ca-en/
Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/
Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en
To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405
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Fire bans. Blackouts. Heat waves. Extreme weather is hitting harder and more often. Plus, Canada's electricity demand is soaring. In thinkenergy episode 161, host Trevor Freeman breaks down how utilities plan for grid resilience, from upgrading local infrastructure to planning a national east-west grid. He also explores how customer demand response can help prevent outages. Learn how climate and consumption are reshaping our energy systems and what's being done to keep the lights on through extreme weather.
Related links
Electrifying Canada's remote communities with QUEST Canada (thinkenergy episode 143): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/electrifying-canadas-remote-communities-with-quest-canada/
Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114
Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en
To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405
To subscribe using Spotify:
https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl
To subscribe on Libsyn:
http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com
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Transcript:
Trevor Freeman 00:07
Welcome to a thinkenergy short, hosted by me, Trevor Freeman. This is a bite sized episode designed to be a quick summary of a specific topic or idea related to the world of energy. This is meant to round out our collective understanding of the energy sector, and will complement our normal guest interview episodes. Thanks for joining and happy listening. Hi everyone, and welcome back to thinkenergy. I hope you all had a great summer at equal parts restful and exciting. Certainly, we had a great summer here. It was good to take a bit of a step back and think about all the exciting topics that we have to talk to you about coming up over the course of the next season of the think energy podcast. And it's nice to be back here behind the microphone. I'm recording this just at the tail end of summer, the kind of end of August, and looking forward to getting into lots of good content this year. Today, we're going to start off our season with a look at the impact of extreme weather on our grid, as our grid is already under pressure from growing electricity demand. So it's a bit of a look at what utilities are doing in the face of that pressure. So this will be a think energy short, and we'll bring you our guest episode the next time around. So let's dive right in then. What does extreme weather mean for Canada's electricity infrastructure, and should we be worried about its ability to handle that extreme weather? This is kind of top of mind right now. We're at the tail end of summer. It's been a pretty hot and dry summer, at least where I am. Incidentally, I'm about to head into Algonquin Park for a backcountry camping trip, and there's a fire bed on and that's not unheard of in Algonquin Park and in many parts of the country, but this late in the season, it's pretty rare. I think this might actually be the first time that we've had a fire ban so late in the season that I can remember that I've been camping on and I go pretty frequently. So that'll be a little bit unique. And so yeah, a hot, dry summer is certainly one of those things we think of when we think about the changing weather patterns. But this is also top of mind because Rukshar Ali, who's a journalist with CTV, has been exploring, you know, the weak points in Canada's electricity grids, and has been writing about what impact extreme weather might have on those grids. So at a very high level, Canada's power grids as they are built today and in the past, as they have been built. So at a high level, Canada's power grids, as we've been building them for the last 100 years or so, need improvements in order to be able to withstand the frequent extreme weather and growing demand for electricity that we're having. That's not anything new, we talk about that often, how we need to invest in our grid for both reliability as well as expansion and the growing electrification of our society. Climate change is here, extreme weather is here, and those things are adding strain to our grid at the same time that demand is increasing and the grid is is redundant in many aspects. If we lose one component, then we can continue on and serve parts of our customer base from other sections. But extreme weather events are likely to knock out several aspects of the grid at once, and we need to improve in order to be able to withstand that. To give you a sense of the magnitude of the issue, the North American Electric Liability Corporation predicts that within the next decade, half of North America will be at risk for a significant blackout. So let's talk a little bit about why extreme weather as we know as the as the globe warms up from climate change, the frequency and magnitude of weather events increases, so we'll see more extreme weather events, and those extreme weather events will be more extreme, to reuse that word, and we're already seeing this. So last year, for example, severe weather caused 1000 outages in Nova Scotia, between 2013 and 2023 if we look across the entire country, there were around 10 extreme weather events that caused nearly 20 million customers to lose power across Canada. And eight of those 10 extreme weather events occurred in the five year period between 2018 and 2023 so that the frequency of these very significant, very extreme weather events, is definitely growing up. This is all happening at the same time that the country's electricity demand is also increasing and placing pressure on our infrastructure. So we know that usage is going to grow with electrification. We've talked about that a lot here and here in Ontario, the Independent Electricity System Operator, is projecting that consumption will increase by 75% by the year 2050, which is a significant jump up. And so as demand is increasing, we're also seeing that pressure on the grid from that and extreme weather kind of exacerbates that problem too. So extreme heat waves cause people to use their air conditioners more frequently and for longer, and that puts greater demand on the grid as well. So in July of 2023 you might recall this extreme kind of heat period in British Columbia out on the West Coast, and there's the heat dome, and that period saw the province use about 8% more electricity on average, than the previous kind of six year July average. So there is a significant increase from that one single heat event. So what do we do about this? How do we act in the face of increased extreme weather and electrification. Well, first off, we definitely need to update our infrastructure. And utility companies across the country and indeed across North America know this and have already started to do this here in hydro Ottawa's territory, for example, as I've talked about before, hydro Ottawa has a five year investment plan covering the 2026 to 2030 period, which is the largest investment plan in our company's history, and it carries a significant amount of investment in grid reliability, grid modernization, improving and expanding our infrastructure for just these challenges, so for the extreme weather and increased electricity demand across Our grid, if you zoom out a little bit and other parts of the country, the East Coast, for example, Nova Scotia Power recently finished a pole replacement project that saw a significant number of poles being replaced, and they're now moving into a Smart Grid Initiative, which is similar to grid modernization that I've talked about Here on the show in the past, which also addresses utilization of the grid, as well as ability to react during an outage on a bigger scale across the entire country, the federal government has promised to look at an east, west electricity grid, which would help connect more Canadians to more affordable and reliable power. And obviously, new construction would be focused on being able to withstand extreme weather as well as bring on more electricity demand as part of electrification. We've talked here in the past on the show, and the CTV journalist Ali points out that the current grid system makes it a lot easier for provinces to transfer electricity to the United States. It's kind of that north south flow of electricity is a lot easier than an East West flow of electricity. So trading between provinces today is difficult, and that's why there's a push for a national grid, an East West grid, that would make it a lot easier for Canadians to share electricity amongst each other. This would also have the benefit of helping connect more rural and remote communities. So I draw your attention back to a podcast episode I did with quest Canada, where we talked about some of those more remote communities and how a lot of them are not connected to a reliable grid. So there's a lot of work that can be done to really shore up how we connect across the country to the different areas, especially with a major east west grid. And of course, this is supported during this kind of, you know, a little bit tumultuous political climate that we have as we're reevaluating trading relationships with the United States, with other countries, it's important that we really focus on, how do we make sure things flow very well within our own borders? Beyond just the transmission and the grid upgrades that we need to do, we also need to look at diversifying our supply of electricity. So here in Canada, we use a lot of hydro generation, but extreme weather that causes droughts put that at risk. And so low water levels can impact electrical production, and we need to be prepared to have alternative sources as well. We still need to focus on making sure those sources are renewable. So really looking at expanding wind, solar, nuclear energy in some cases, as well as building out other hydro electric generation resources, is really important to have a good diversified mix. And on top of all that, we also need to continue looking at, how can we lower our energy consumption, especially during those peak times, especially when the grid is under stress at certain times of the day or from certain weather events. And we've seen that this can work. So in January 2024 the Alberta electric system operator, or IESO, issued an alert. It was a cold weather alert asking customers to reduce their electricity use during an extremely cold period in that province. And. And shortly after that, there was a 200 megawatt drop in electricity demand, which really helped the province avoid a series of rolling outages and avoid some real challenges on the grid. So it does work when customers are asked to alter their behavior in, you know, hopefully, small and subtle ways to manage grid peaks, and that's a really huge tool that we have. And we've talked before on the show about the role of managing peak times on the grid and being able to shift some of that usage to other times to avoid over stressing the assets that we have. That's going to be a really important strategy as we face increasing demand and extreme weather outages to make sure we're not over stressing the grid. So to sum that all up, extreme weather is going to impact our grid, and utilities do need to be aware of that and plan for how to build a grid that is more resilient and more reliable in the face of that increasing extreme weather. The good news is that utility companies know this and are already moving in that direction, and hydro Ottawa is a good example of that, of really focusing on building out reliability on its grid with some of the investment plans that we have put forward, and that extends all the way up to the federal level as well, where our federal leadership is looking at, how do we plan a EAST, WEST grid, really build out that provincial grid, and while we do that, a continued focus on energy efficiency and reducing electricity demand during peak times, and the various tools that we have to do that. So yes, extreme weather is coming, but there's a plan of how to deal with that. So thanks for tuning in today. It's really great to be back here behind the microphone and chatting with you all. Our next episode is another look at grid modernization, but this time through a customer lens, and really, what does grid modernization mean for customers? So stay tuned and join us in two weeks for our next episode. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback comments or an idea for a show or a guest, you can always reach us at [email protected], you.
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Summer rewind: Hydro Ottawa recently unveiled its largest investment plan ever, with a five-year focus on modernizing and strengthening the grid. The way we're consuming energy is changing, and this investment plan focuses on four key areas that highlight why Hydro Ottawa is taking action, and how they plan on doing it.
Hydro Ottawa's Chief Operating Officer, Guillaume Paradis, joins thinkenergy to dive a little deeper into those focus areas, and why they matter, with host Trevor Freeman.
Related links
● Guillaume Paradis on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/guillaume-paradis-30a47721
● Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114
● Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en
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http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/
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Transcript:
Trevor Freeman 00:00
Hi everyone. Well, summer is here, and the think energy team is stepping back a bit to recharge and plan out some content for the next season. We hope all of you get some much needed downtime as well, but we aren't planning on leaving you hanging over the next few months, we will be re releasing some of our favorite episodes from the past year that we think really highlight innovation, sustainability and community. These episodes highlight the changing nature of how we use and manage energy, and the investments needed to expand, modernize and strengthen our grid in response to that. All of this driven by people and our changing needs and relationship to energy as we move forward into a cleaner, more electrified future, the energy transition, as we talk about many times on this show. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll be back with all new content in September. Until then, happy listening.
Trevor Freeman 00:55
Welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at think energy at hydroottawa.com.
Trevor Freeman 01:19
hi everyone, and welcome back. A few episodes back I talked about some of the important work that happens at the distribution level to maintain and expand our grid, and I tried to connect the dots between that work and the broader societal energy transition that is happening at all levels. How the work we do at the distribution level is really important and tied to some of those larger projects that may get a little bit more news and attention that energy transition, which, as you're hopefully aware by now, is ongoing right now. It's not something of the future. It's happening today. That energy transition is multifaceted, but from an electricity and electrification perspective, the distribution utility, ie the Hydro Ottawa, of whatever jurisdiction you're in, is at the very leading edge of many of the changes we need to see within our electricity system to support that transition. So today, I'd like to go a little bit further with that topic and focus on Hydro Ottawa's next five year investment plan, which covers the 2026 to 2030 period. This will be the largest investment plan in our history as a company. And I wanted to dig into what we have identified as key focus areas for investment in the coming five years, with more than 100 years of operating a large, complex distribution network, Hydro Ottawa is embarking on a pretty significant journey to modernize and strengthen our grid for the challenges and opportunities ahead of us. We have filed our 2026, to 2030, Electricity Distribution rate application, as it's called, with the Ontario Energy Board, and this is a standard practice for all local distribution companies in Ontario. That's what we have to do. As a reminder for our listeners, the Ontario Energy Board, or OEB, as we often call it, is our independent regulator. Their mission in this process is to strike a balance between ensuring the financial health and operational needs of utilities like Hydro Ottawa, while also safeguarding the affordability and reliability of the service for the customer. So they want to make sure that we're spending enough to tackle the right projects on the grid, to make sure it stays operational while not spending too much. They meticulously scrutinize every detail of these applications to ensure that the proposed rates are just and reasonable, and that all investments are prudent and really in the public interest. So we have gotten a number of questions about the plan and specifically around where is the money going to go? What are you going to actually spend these dollars that you're requesting on? And why are these investments necessary? What benefits are they actually going to bring to our community? And often we get the question of, does this mean less outages or shorter outages? So I want to dig into that. I want to talk a little bit about what we've got planned and what the impact will be, and what the impact would be if we don't do those things, and to help me walk through that energy roadmap, that plan that we've put together. I've got Guillaume Paradis joining me today. Guillaume is the Chief Operating Officer of generation and distribution here at Hydro Ottawa, and he's going to join me, and we're going to talk through this. Guillaume and his teams are responsible for the planning, design, operation, construction and maintenance of our electrical power distribution system, and in his role, he leads the teams that are directly accountable for ensuring the safe, efficient and reliable delivery of electricity to our customers. Today, I'm going to ask Guillaume, really, to walk us through the details of. Our investment plan, how it was shaped, how we came up with these specific areas, and what benefits are going to be realized by our community and the broader energy landscape. Guillaume, Paradis, welcome to the show. Pleasure to be here. Trevor, okay, so, Guillaume, this is Hydro Ottawa's largest investment plan ever, and I'd like you to start by talking us through the primary drivers behind what our five year investment plan is.
Guillaume Paradis 05:29
Yeah, so as you've heard, as you've seen, we're in a historical, or historically, you know, unique point in the evolution of our industry. Electricity underpins most of our societal aspirations with respect to creating, you know, a more sustainable future, creating the future we want to leave for the next generations. And our distribution system underpins a lot of those aspirations in simple ways and in more complex ways. So, you know, a simple way is that essentially, for, you know, the well being of our society, for our customers, the residents of Ottawa, and really any area, to live the lives they're hoping to live, to, you know, enjoy the benefits of modern life. Electricity is a critical underpinning in any way you can imagine and you know, think about so. Our service has always been very important. It's just become even more critical as a foundational block for you know, the lives that we're hoping to live and we're living today in our modern society. So that, combined with other aspirations related to where we can reducing our carbon footprint and integrating more renewable energy resources within our footprint, it creates a situation where there's a significant need for us to invest, continue to invest and reinvest in our infrastructure to deliver those outcomes for customers.
Trevor Freeman 07:16
Yeah, I think, I mean, we talk a lot about the energy transition on the show, and if, if you think about, you know, let's say our previous rate application five years ago, the energy transition was a thing we knew about it, but it was like a thing of tomorrow where, hey, that's going to come soon. The difference now, I assume, and maybe you can speak to this, is we're seeing that. We're seeing the change now.
Guillaume Paradis 07:40
Yeha, you're exactly correct, like we're in it now. So we've been talking about it for some time, both from a like a general societal aspiration standpoint, but also from a technological standpoint. For a very long time, we talked about electric vehicles having an impact and becoming more commonplace. We talked about leveraging automation to deliver our services. We talked about two way power flows. So we've been building toward this moment, and now we're essentially in it, if you will, and we're seeing all those things, the confluence of all those longer term trends, sort of manifest themselves in real demand for our system, in real changes in our customers want to use energy, and we're in the middle of that, and we're, you know, to enable those things happening in our community here in Ottawa.
Trevor Freeman 08:36
Yeah. So it's like the business as usual, a lot of the same things, and we're going to talk about some of this. About some of the specifics, but a lot of the same thing, things we would normally do just a lot more of at the same time, as like also pivoting a little bit to meet some of these new needs, like charging transportation and like heating our spaces, more of electricity, like some of these new needs that didn't exist are not to the same extent. So it's like more of the same plus other new stuff, and we're gonna talk about that in a minute.
Guillaume Paradis 09:11
Yeah. So, you know, we always would say that the future of the energy sector was very exciting, and things were coming and like, change was upon us, and now, essentially, we're, we're living it, right? So you have to carry on with the responsibilities that you always had, and meanwhile, figure out how to deliver those new outcomes, those new services that previously weren't required or expected, right?
Trevor Freeman 09:39
So let's, let's kind of get into some of the details here. So there are four key capital investment categories in this plan, so growth and electrification, aging, infrastructure, grid modernization and grid resilience. So we're going to dive into the specifics of these in a minute, but we're. To start off with why these four? How did we land on these four as the main categories?
Guillaume Paradis 10:07
Yeah, so there's, there's various ways you can categorize investments. There's a lot of drivers that will lead us to invest in an area or replace some infrastructure somewhere in our system, these categories capture quite well. What is at the core of various investments. So for one specific investment, there will be multiple drivers, but these ones sort of in an elegant way, I would say, capture. You know why investments are occurring, what the primary driver is for those investments, and they help translate that for folks who are not involved day to day in planning the electricity system, that's our responsibility. What we're trying to communicate is why we're taking action where we're taking action. So those categories, in my mind, capture that really well. They also tie our investments to broad trends that people should be aware of, and they're a way to make sure that we have, you know, a clear baseline for a conversation as we proceed with those plans.
Trevor Freeman 11:18
Yeah, one thing I find, and you know, in my role, I talk to customers a lot, and I find these are fairly easy to explain, or at least, I hope they are, if you're listening and you disagree, let us know. But people can kind of get their heads around why the utility needs to do each of these four things, and some, in some ways, they align with other sectors as well. So I think, and I hope, as we carry on our conversation here, it'll be easy to sort of build out the picture of what we're doing in each of those four areas. So why don't we? Let's dive right in then and look at the specifics. And starting with growth and electrification, what are the specific investments that are planned to support the growing energy needs of our community, you know. And we've already started talking about electric vehicles, other electrified aspects of our lives, like, what? What falls into this category?
Guillaume Paradis 12:11
Yeah, so with respect to growth and electrification, um, there's a few underlying trends that drive the investment requirements. So as you've suggested, as you mentioned, you know, there's an evolution of how our customers use energy at home, day to day. EVS being obviously a primary example that everyone will be very aware of. Just, you know, driving around town, frankly, the difference in how regularly you'll see electric vehicles in our community relative to even five years ago is is pretty dramatic, and that is having a long term, you know, impact over time, likewise for technologies like heat pumps at home, and just generally, the growth of our community. So those elements just drive a longer-term trend of more demand being present in our community, within our system. And in addition to that, one big change that we've seen over the last few years is more large scale demand request coming into our service territory, typically, that will be large customers wanting to do something different with energy. So it could go. It could be driven by a few different kinds of corporate aspirations. What we're seeing a lot of are instances where large corporations decide, or institutions decide, to do away with more carbon intensive energy sources, so they will look to us and electricity to replace what previously would have been another fuel source that maybe is less green. So we're seeing that affecting choices some of those type of customers are making, and then at the same time, we're seeing just large requests related to a different type of energy demand. So companies wanting to, for example, bring back their R and D efforts to a data center that they operate and they control, so that they have more control over cybersecurity elements, and then, likewise, with where their data flows to and how it's being managed. So we're seeing large requests at a rate that we didn't previously, and that those requests are significant enough that they require us to make very major investments, like new substations, like building a. New feeders again at a pace that far outpaces what we've seen historically. So the underlying trend of more small demand creating an impact at the aggregate level, combined with those larger requests, that's creating a significant need for us to invest in responding to that growth in the electrification drivers within our system.
Trevor Freeman 15:29
Yeah, so this is in response to what we're seeing our customers do. And that's it's something that has come up before in conversation here. Of you know, we we respond to what we see our customers doing and what our customers are asking us. They're asking for more power. We have to respond to provide that more power. So this, this kind of area of investment, is really just building out the grid and all of the assets and infrastructure that are that make up the grid to be able to meet the needs of our customers, which are growing faster than they were previously? Is that fair to say?
Guillaume Paradis 16:05
Yeah, and for us, it's an interesting balancing act we have to find where we have to anticipate our customers' needs and the demand that's upon us, but we can't get ahead of it, because that would draw investments that potentially would, you know, later become stranded, or, you know, create a cost burden for our customers. So we have to know where the demand is going, and we have to be ready to respond and connect new customers, but we can't get too far ahead of it, because ultimately, you know, if we invest too soon, that's, you know, a burden for all our customers. So sometimes I, I would say there's that misconception that somehow, we're, we're creating our own forecast and believing our own forecast. And really, it's a bit simpler than that, we take in the request and we respond to those requests. We have to be able to look out a few years to make sure that we're not missing, you know, anything significant that would have an impact on our system, but we don't get too far ahead from an investment standpoint.
Trevor Freeman 17:19
Okay, so Guillaume, we've been talking about the more traditional aspects of our grid, you know, pulls, wires, transformers, et cetera. But I know that we're also looking at how we can deploy what we call non wire solutions to also help manage capacity on our grid. Can you just explain what some of these solutions are and how we're going to use them in conjunction with our traditional assets to manage grid needs.
Guillaume Paradis 17:43
Yeah, so normal alternatives are essentially the concept that without having to install traditional infrastructure, think poles, new Transformers, new cables, underground, you may be able to harvest existing resources within your footprint to help you manage operational needs. Be it like certain peaks that have a short duration, other scenarios of constraints where, rather than building net new infrastructure, which is expensive and time consuming, you might be able to optimize I'll call it the use of embedded resources in a manner that actually meets your operational objectives. So the way you would do that is by using combination of resources. Typically, you would look at small scale embedded storage. So if it exists in the system, you would actually leverage it if, if you could, otherwise, you might install some in a very targeted manner that helps you meet those operational needs. And then otherwise, you would leverage customer resources. So that's either existing generation that is owned by customers, or which is more typical, you know their ability to adjust their demand at certain times to meet your operational constraints. So the idea there is that you can do a business case, you can do an evaluation of what it would take to engage all these resources to get the same operational outcome as you would if you build the new infrastructure, and compare the two on a cost basis. And actually, in some instances, see scenarios where those non wire alternatives actually beat out large scale infrastructure upgrades from a financial standpoint. So it's, it's an evolving area. We have a few pockets within the city that we're targeting for programs like those ones, and we expect, over time, as more embedded resources proliferate, as more customer devices become controllable, we'll have a great. Greater opportunity, in fact, to leverage those non wire alternatives, or those non traditional solutions to meet our operational requirements.
Trevor Freeman 20:08
Great. So this is a combination of you know, Hydro Ottawa is planning to invest in in some assets, you know, be they battery or otherwise, on our side of the meter. We call that in front of the meter to help manage grid needs, while also looking for opportunities to partner with customers you know in the aggregate, so you know 100 or 1000 customers at once, to say if we need to call on your devices to either inject into the grid or to ramp back your operations, that will help us manage grid needs while the customer still maintains control. Is that fair to say?
Guillaume Paradis 20:47
Yeah, that's fair, and that's an emerging capacity we have. So if our ability to control and call upon a very large number of small devices and customer devices has grown and is growing and will be over the next few years. And with that, our capacity to then draw from those resources to respond to operational circumstances is also increasing and will give us options we just wouldn't have had in the past. So it's just a better way of utilizing available energy resources a more refined way, and one that probably wasn't available to us at scale 10 years ago.
Trevor Freeman 21:29
Yeah, and the driver behind all this is what's the best, most cost effective way to address that grid need? Some cases it's going to be the poles and wires and transformers. In some cases, it's going to be these non wire solutions, and it's part of the planning of the grid to identify where does each technology make sense.
Guillaume Paradis 21:50
Absolutely. So again, it's a more refined way of assessing options and ensuring that we identify the most cost effective strategies possible.
Trevor Freeman 22:02
Perfect, great. Okay, so that's the growth and electrification section. Let's move to aging infrastructure, which is about a third of this investment plan. So this may seem like a softball to start with, but what are some of the challenges posed by aging infrastructure? Maybe talk to us a little bit about what that infrastructure is when it comes to utility grid, and then what are what are we doing with this investment plan to address that aging infrastructure?
Guillaume Paradis 22:31
Yeah, so aging infrastructure is a very clear and appropriate descriptor here. So we invest in assets that are long lived, think 5060, years plus in some instances, and you know, eventually you use them, you leverage them over, you know, many decades. And at some point, those assets deteriorate beyond a point where they're no longer able to provide the service that our customers expect. So that would be failures, which leads to reliability issues in parts of our system. So one at one point or another in the life cycle of those assets, depending on how they're being used, what environment they are operated in, you have to replace them. What we try to do is assess them on a risk basis. And when we say risk, we mean, what impact can they have on our customers if they were to fail? Impacts can be things like safety risk. It could be, of course, reliability issues. It could limit our ability to service our customers. And so we assess risk on an ongoing basis, looking at those assets over decades. And eventually we get to a point where the risk has to be addressed, and that typically takes the form of or it can take the form of an outright replacement through the life cycle of all those assets, all of our assets. We do maintenance, we inspect them, we try to see if there are other things we can do before we replace them. But you get to a point ultimately, where the only option that's viable is to actually replace and then you have to go in and take action, physically in the field. Now what becomes a little complicated is, as you can imagine, it's one thing to put infrastructure up when a field being converted to a subdivision, or the city's growing and it's all brand new. You know, infrastructure being developed to support the growth, but decades later, when you come back, 60-70, years plus, in some cases, you're in someone's backyard. You're in the middle of an intersection where multiple utilities have installed their own infrastructure. So you have to coordinate that things have been moved over time. So getting access to the infrastructure is more difficult. Difficult, and so replacing many decades later is a lot more involved than putting up new infrastructure in the first place, and the type of infrastructure that we're talking about here probably falls into three major categories. So there's the overhead infrastructure you see around town. So really, when you and you shouldn't do that while you're driving, but if you're walking ideally, and you're looking at the beautiful hydro infrastructure around Ottawa, what you'll see are very old poles that need attention. So that's very visible, right? We have wood poles, you know, in a lot of the areas of our city, and you get to a point where structurally, they're not as strong as they used to be. They've weathered many storms, and they need attention. And then otherwise, it's the Transformers you might see on those poles. And that would be the boxes that are hanging from the poles, the ones that look like they, you know, predate the Cold War are the ones we're going after, and we need to give some attention to today. And then on the underground side, similar infrastructure, it's cables in in the ground, so in some instances, it's buried directly in someone's backyard. That was a an approach people took many decades back. Now, you can imagine it's very convenient when you're building it, but not so much when you're trying to get it out of the ground and put new cables into the ground. So there's cables that need replacing. They've, you know, been damaged or creating reliability issues. The transformers that go with that as well might need attention. And again, as I mentioned before, you know, decades later, that transformer may be right behind someone's pool in their backyard, and they've done some real nice landscaping, and accessing it for a replacement is a lot more complicated. So underground infrastructure, in fact, is one of the more complicated replacements to execute. And then, you know, if you move up from there, you're looking at substation equipment. So that's the stuff that's fenced in across the city where power is being delivered from to our customers across the city. And so those assets may be a bit less complicated in terms of managing sites and access, but certainly complicated in terms of logistics costs of the equipment. Those are very, very large assets that require a lot of planning to replace, because they're critical to our system, and we can't afford to have them be out of service too long.
Trevor Freeman 27:49
Got you and just for our listeners, while Guillaume talking, I pulled up a few quick stats here. So we, Hydro Ottawa on our service territory, has over 6000 kilometers of conductor so of wires and just under 50,000 poles out in our service territory. So as you can imagine, a lot of that is in great shape, and some of it isn't, and some of it needs to be addressed, just like you're talking about here Guillaume.
Guillaume Paradis 28:17
Yeah, and that's helpful. Trevor. The thing that we often forget, especially for electricity distribution, is the sheer number of assets that can create a risk. So it's one thing to manage one large transformer and make sure it doesn't fail, but when you're talking about 1000s of assets dispersed around a very large service territory like Ottawa, making sure that we keep an eye on all of them at all times, making sure that we intervene at the exact time prior to a failure, to make sure we deliver the best service possible for our customers. That's really the essence of our challenge and what makes distribution unique versus other parts of our business, where it's maybe more centralized and you may be looking at a smaller set of assets.
Trevor Freeman 29:04
Yeah, absolutely okay, so obviously, it's important to maintain what we've got, in addition to building out that new stuff that we talked about earlier, maintaining and replacing what we have, so that you know our existing grid remains reliable. The next section of our investment plan is what we call grid modernization. Now that's something that we've talked about to varying levels of detail on this show before, but I'd like you to talk us through what is in this investment plan over the next five years. When we talk about grid modernization, what are we actually doing? What are some of the specific things that we're gonna put some of our investment towards?
Guillaume Paradis 29:45
Yeah, so grid monetization is, is a category that gets talked about a lot, but maybe is, I would say, a bit misunderstood, I think, because it sounds futuristic, people assume we're doing a. And very different things. And ultimately, in my mind, it's better leveraging technology to get good outcomes for our customers. It's really that simple. So as you can imagine, you know, as I talked about, we're looking at assets that have expected life of 50- 60-70, years when some of our assets were first installed, things like communication technology, things like IT, operational technology, weren't as advanced as they are today. Our ability to collect data in real time was not what it is today, and so nada we're we have an opportunity to reinvest and replace all assets. It's important that we do so in a manner that will allow us to drive essentially more performance or better performance out of the assets we put in our system, so that can take various forms. As I mentioned, getting better real time information is one of those ways in which we can leverage technology, what that allows us to do is better respond to outages, offer a better service by being more aware of what's happening at any given point in time, getting better information in near real time as to what assets are posing a risk to reliability because they've been utilized heavily, or they've seen a lot of faults, for example. And so building in that technological infrastructure as a layer that enhances the traditional investments that we've always made is sort of the right thing to do in a context where you want to optimize where you spend your dollars, and you don't want to have to go back and reinvest on the same assets or in the same parts of our system multiple times, uh, over, you know, the coming years, in the coming decades. So the grid monetization portfolio, essentially is our opportunity to, you know, very strategically, identify where we can put in technology that will allow us to get more of our assets and provide a better service for our customers. So simple things like automated devices that would be automated switches that we install on our overhead infrastructure, underground infrastructure that gives us a capacity during an outage to shift demand around and resupply our customers more rapidly than we would have been able to otherwise, and that gives us a capacity to provide a better service under contingency scenario. So very simple, right? It's telemetry. It's communication to a device. And rather than have someone physically go in the field and, you know, switch customers and try to move demand around, we can do that remotely from our control center, likewise, in the control center, putting in more telemetry to identify and proactively suggest to our operators how to restore power to customers. Again, is a simple thing in by today's standard, right? It's not competent technology. It's not complicated software, but it's a layer that didn't exist previously, where we can have software, you know, model based. Its tool suggest how best to optimize the restoration of power. And as we do that, our trade operators get to review and take action in an informed manner. So grid, modernization, again, is about making the most of today's available technology while we reinvest in our distribution system to make sure that the quality of our service, and the breadth of the services we can provide align, well, going forward, with our customers aspirations, and provide a quality service for many decades to come.
Trevor Freeman 34:15
Yeah, and I think it's important to remember, and you know this, this little saying has been out there in the industry, and I've used it before. Of the electricity grid is the world's largest machine. Like the grid itself is a piece of technology, and like any technology, we would not be happy if it stayed stagnant, like we want it to evolve with the latest and greatest and operate better and more efficiently, and the grid is no different, and so part of grid modernization is just keeping up with what's out there to make sure we are delivering the service that we deliver in the best way, in the most advanced way, in the most efficient way possible. With that. Guillaume, what about things like, you know, we hear a lot about more distributed energy resources, so more small-scale generation or storage out there on the grid that might be owned by the utility, but it might not be. It might be customer owned. What are we doing from a grid modernization perspective, to enable more distributed energy resources to utilize that those assets more on our grid?
Guillaume Paradis 35:28
Yeah, so that's core to the evolution and we're proposing and working toward and and really, if you boil it down to, you know, simple kind of concept, it's really that traditionally, we've had a static model of how our grid needs to operate, and we planned accordingly. So, you know, power flows in one direction to certain size customers. They use electricity to use our energy, and then we protect, we coordinate, we control accordingly, and we're moving into an environment where customer behavior evolves in a dynamic fashion in near real time, depending on what prices are available in the electricity market, depending on what aspirations various Customers have, depending on what technology they want to deploy to manage their energy footprint, a customer may look different, really, from one day to the next, as far as the electricity system is concerned, because their demand might be less significant on a day where their solar panels are better able to generate energy on a day where they choose to leverage a large battery system that they've installed at their facilities to manage their demand. And so from an electricity system standpoint, we need a much better awareness of what is happening in near real time to be able to control and then respond and ultimately offer the right service for our customers. So that's a big change again, going back to the how we're going to enable that. It's again, the core elements of communication infrastructure, more telemetry, so that we can see what's happening in real time. Think sensors. Think smart meters. Think, you know, software system within our control room to take all that information, information in in real time and make sense of it, and then ultimately drive our decision making and support our customers in leveraging energy resources in an optimal way for their needs, by making sure that we're aware of what's happening and not create barriers that are artificial because we're not Sure, and when we're not sure, safety is paramount, and when you prioritize safety and you don't have information, you have to be very conservative in the decisions you make, and you may limit customers choices and behavioral, you know choices, by having to have that safety margin and that safety conscience kind of override everything else. So better telemetry, better real time information, more dynamic ways of controlling energy allow us to enable customers and support their aspirations ultimately,
Trevor Freeman 38:38
I mean, it really comes kind of full circle back to our job is to let our customers do what they want to do when it comes to energy, enable that, and that may be just making sure the power is there and available, but it also may be making sure that our grid is set up to allow them to generate and store and sort of interact with energy in the way that they want to. So those two things are quite parallel. Okay, great. Last category here is grid resilience, and this is an important one, and especially in the eyes of our customers, because, you know, we're that unique industry where most of the time, people don't think of us when they really do think about us, it's because the lights have gone off, because there's some event that has resulted in an outage. And I just want to ensure our customers, we try very, very hard to make sure that doesn't happen as much as we can't control everything. So we have this category of grid resilience in our investment plan, and we know that we're going to be seeing and we have already started to see more frequent extreme weather events that is increasing. It's not going down. So what are we doing in our investment plan, or what are we planning to do in order to enhance grid resiliency and withstand those extreme weather event?
Guillaume Paradis 40:01
Yeah, so the need for resilience, in my mind, comes from a couple places. So, you know, there are drivers that are external, so the operating environment is evolving to your point. We've seen a number of very impactful weather events over the last few years, whether it be historically impactful ice storms, we've seen tornadoes in our service territory in a way that we didn't previously. We saw derecho a couple years ago, which was, you know, by some measure, the most impactful storm in the history of our company. And so, we know what we plan to withstand has evolved, and we need to reflect that in the decisions we make when we invest in our infrastructure. That can take a few forms, but for grid resilience, we're targeting specific investments so we can identify, and have identified areas of our system that are more vulnerable. Imagine overhead infrastructure that is more exposed to stronger winds. And so, we can go in there and then target those areas, target those segments of our system and make them more robust, more resistant to those external factors. And so, we have assessed our entire service territory. We've studied, you know, our vulnerability to changing patterns, to changing weather events, and in a very targeted manner, identified areas where we'll take action over the next five years to boost resilience of our electricity system in those scenarios, and really just generally. The other element is, you know, while those external factors are evolving and creating a stress on our system, we're also seeing people's dependence on electricity is availability continue to grow, right? So, you know, we've been through this many times at this point, and I'm sure it's been covered on on this podcast a number of times. But you know, people's, you know, need for highly and readily available electricity continues to go up. Think, you know, remote work. Think our utilization of, you know, the internet and the technologies that support that people need access to power, you know, on an ongoing basis for a variety of reasons that support their lifestyles. And so, while the external factors have become and are becoming more challenging and creating a stress, we're also seeing customers relying more heavily on our service being available, and so those things combined make it sort of an imperative that we take action and ensure that our system is robust and can withstand those conditions that are upon us. So, we change our planning approach. We evolve our choices with respect to investments. It could be simpler things than you know, targeting areas and replacing specific infrastructure. It could be as simple as changing our standards so that when we install a new poll, we know that it can withstand harsher winds and heavier ice loading parameters, and we do that across all our investments. So that's a key point here, with respect to grid resilience. Yes, we have a targeted, sort of very strategic approach to building resilience, but we also do that across all our investment categories when we put money in our distribution system to make sure that, similar to the point we made about technology, you know, we invest in assets that will, you know, outlive many of us, and they need to be adequate and appropriate for the environment in which they will operate long term. So we change, you know, the choices we make. We change the materials we use to build the infrastructure that we put in our system, so that ultimately the service levels and service quality that our customers get to enjoy, you know, meets their expectations for decades to come.
Trevor Freeman 44:47
I think the idea like it's good that we have called out specifically some activities targeted at group resilience, but some of the other stuff that we've already talked about all. Support resilience. And you mentioned in the grid modernization part, you know, part of that is restoring power to most customers quicker in our growth and electrification part, I mean making sure that our grid can handle the new loads also lends itself to resiliency. So, all of this is in service of making sure that power is there for our customers when they need it, how they need it, and done in a sort of safe and affordable way. That's the goal of all these categories together.
Guillaume Paradis 45:33
Yeah, absolutely the you know, going back to the earlier point, the categories are helpful in identifying the major drivers. But ultimately, to your point, Trevor, they all support each other, and when our team plans the future of electricity system, they do so in an integrated manner that considers the various benefits that we can achieve by taking action and putting more money in our distribution system?
Trevor Freeman 46:02
Yeah, great. So that's a nice segue into his next question, which is, of course, there's a cost for this, and this is why it is an investment plan. We're out there outlining, these are our targets. This is what we want to do, but there's a cost to that. And so if we don't do this. If we said, look, we just can't put that extra investment into these areas. What are the implications on the grid, on our service? And let's look at kind of like quality of service, reliability, safety, et cetera, if we don't make these investments that we are identifying right now.
Guillaume Paradis 46:41
Yeah, so it's pretty direct, right? We what we've done for the in preparation for our rate application, in preparation for to develop our plans for 2026 to 2030 is we've considered all the needs. We've looked at how old the assets are, how quickly they're deteriorating, how many might require replacement over the next five years. What would be an appropriate race rate of replacement to ensure that we don't let let risk build up in our system, we don't cause reliability issues. We've looked at making how we make sure that we can provide service to our customers, that we can connect them in a timely, timely manner, that we can do all those things in a fashion that is safe and ensures the safety of the public, our customers. And so a lot of thought goes into what is required over the next five years, and then on top of those factors and considerations, we also look at what impact will this have financially on our customers, because we're mindful that our service does affect, you know, our customers lives, yes, in a positive manner When our services reliable and power is available, but also financially from a cost standpoint, we add to other pressures that everyone experiences in their lives. And so we want to be very judicious in setting the size of our programs the level of investments in managing those various factors, right? So we have a multifaceted responsibility, and we weigh all those factors in in our or in setting the plans for the future. So doing so looking five years out, as you can probably imagine, you know, if we didn't constrain the plans. If we just did everything our planning engineers would like to do, we would have spent probably another 50% more than what is in the current plan. So looking at old assets, looking at the service levels we want to deliver, we could have spent a significantly larger amount of money if it was purely based on, we'll call them planning, you know, drivers. But as I said, we are mindful that we're responsible for the quality of our service on behalf of all our customers. And we took a very deliberate, you know, extensive approach to adjusting the program size to match the various considerations and ultimately manage the impact on our customers from a financial standpoint. And so we landed where we are after some measure of restraint, some measure of adjustments, down to the plans that would otherwise have been put in place. So thinking about what the outcomes would be if we didn't take the actions we're proposing. You know, it's pretty direct, if you think about it, and we've covered most of them, but it. Just from difficulties in connecting and delivering power to new customers in a timely manner, so that can have impacts with respect to economic development and growth of our community so fairly direct, and frankly, it's our obligation to connect. So we would do everything we can to provide power, but it might just be more difficult take more time on the reliability front. Again, what happens when you don't replace old assets is the failure risks continue to build in your system. So an 80 year old wood pole doesn't get any younger and does it get any stronger if you wait five, six more years? And so as I said, we do a risk assessment before we choose to invest, and our risk assessments tell us that we need to take action on those type of assets. And, you know, take action in a timely manner. If we don't, what is likely to happen is that in a storm scenario, those polls that are deteriorated are more likely to fail, even in normal conditions, it's likely that we would see more failures that could lead to reliability issues, and so just a direct impact on the quality of our service for customers with respect to other outcomes like enabling customers and supporting them in integrating more embedded energy resources. That might just become more difficult, as I said earlier, when we're don't have good real time awareness, we have to err on the side of caution and be more conservative in our management of the system, and that might mean restrictions on where and how we can integrate renewable energy resources. And then ultimately, you know, the paramount consideration for us is always safety, and that's an area where we would just have to be even more vigilant if we couldn't reinvest so old assets, you know, are inherently more likely to create failure risks, and failures can lead to undesirable outcomes from a safety standpoint. So we would have to, and already do, but be very vigilant in monitoring those assets, looking at them, looking at what we can do from a maintenance standpoint to ensure that they don't fail in a manner that would be problematic. So we would be, and are always, very active in looking at those riskier assets, those older assets, to make sure they don't cause problems. But reducing investment levels from what is being proposed now, reducing them further relative to, as I said, the planning levels we would have liked to put forward would have real consequences, and of course, we would do everything we can to manage those consequences and ensure that, you know, we continue to deliver the best service we can. But that would become more difficult than it is today.
Trevor Freeman 53:15
I appreciate that that context of you know, you like me, like energy, and we want to do all the cool things, and we want to have the system that is absolutely able to handle every eventuality, but we have to balance that with what is the right level of investment, what is the right pace to go at? And I think, you know, having seen the process, there's been a lot of work over the last year plus to find that balance, and I think we've, we've hit that balance in terms of being able to move the ball forward while trying to maintain that sort of affordability aspect for customers. Last question here to kind of wrap it all up, and we've touched on this a few times in some of the other questions, but how does our investment plan align with that broader energy transition that that we talk about? You know, decarbonizing, reducing emissions, increasing sort of customer flexibility when it comes to their own generation and storage. And what role do you see Hydro Ottawa playing moving forward in that? And I know that this has already gotten a little bit of attention, but I'll give you a chance just to kind of tie a nice little bow around it at the end.
Guillaume Paradis 54:39
Yeah. So to your point, we did cover a few elements, how we enable those you know, sustainability aspirations. But you know it ranges from making it possible for large customers to shift a significant portion of their energy demand to a lower. A carbon source like electricity. So again, think a customer who would use natural gas for their facilities, and you know, for corporate reasons, decides to use electricity instead us connecting that extra demand and delivering power to them allows them to lower their foot their carbon footprint. So that would be on high end in terms of size and impact, all the way to enabling customers to install different technologies on their homes, within their homes, to reduce their carbon footprint and change how they use energy. So it could be as simple as buying EV and making sure that power is available within that neighborhood to supply demand from that EV. It could be them installing solar panels on their roof and try to export power back to us. And so that would tie to the earlier point around visibility and real time awareness that we need to have to make sure that we can make that possible. So again, you know the energy system, the electricity system is integrated in so many ways, and enabling our customers to achieve their sustainability outcomes, their desired outcomes in terms of energy use, comes from planning the energy system, the electricity distribution system, in a manner that supports that and that permits it. So again, going back to some categories, the grid modernization that we spoke about earlier fits right in there. So being aware allows us to allow and enable customers, and that becomes critical again, in an environment where things are very dynamic, and we want to support that dynamism, and we need to do so in a manner that's safe. So we need information, and we need technology that allows us to go get that information to support the decision making. So as we said, all the investments we're proposing in one way or another will support our supporting those decarbonization and emission reduction objectives that we all have.
Trevor Freeman 57:26
Right, yeah, it really comes back to the idea of us being and this is something that I certainly talk to our customers about. A lot of us being partners with our customers when it comes to their energy journeys, and that can be very active partners in the sense of the word, where we are involved in helping make decisions together on technology or strategies, or it can be very passive in that kind of residential model that you talked about, of just making sure the grid can be there in the way that the customer wants it to be there, and that's still a partnership that that we need to lean into and that we are kind of through this investment plan.
Guillaume Paradis 58:07
We're essentially underpinning people's aspirations when it comes to energy, and so we're there to make it possible for them to do what they're hoping to do. And you're absolutely right. We're seeing both ends of those conversations where some you know, go about their own choices and really don't need us involved, and our responsibility there is to make sure that we don't create a roadblock by not being prepared and not being equipped to respond to you know how they want to change their behavior, all the way to that partnership, where it's a very involved conversation, we're being brought in to fully explore all the options and work with stakeholders in essentially demystifying, or maybe more specifically, sort of see through some of the complexity that exists today in an environment that is much more dynamic again and offers a lot more options than people would have seen a few decades ago.
Trevor Freeman 59:11
Fantastic. Well, Guillaume, I think we'll leave it there. This has been great, and I appreciate you taking the time to help pick apart you know what? What can be a pretty complex, lengthy plan, but really boils down to building out the grid, continuing to do the great work that that the folks at Hydro Ottawa do, while also preparing for the future. So I appreciate your insight into this. As our listeners know we always end these interviews with a series of questions, and you're no different. So I'm going to dive, dive right into that. So Guillaume, what is a book that you've read that you think everyone should read?
Guillaume Paradis 59:54
Yeah, so I'm probably going to get his name wrong, or at least the pronunciation, but it's a book called How The World Really Works by Vaclav Smil. Essentially, you know, he's a very pragmatic thinker with respect to how systems work, how our world is integrated, from a supply standpoint, from a geopolitical standpoint, and how that leads to outcomes in the real world. And think things like energy, think things like food supply. And what I like with his approach is that he breaks thing that things down, sort of from a first principle standpoint, to try to help explain why certain things may or may not be possible, and in an environment where, and maybe that's just my perspective, but I think today, there's a lot of big picture, you know, broad opinions being shared by people who may or may not always be very knowledgeable or have the expertise in certain fields. It's nice to see someone kind of break things down to then try to support, or in some cases, dispel certain misconceptions. So really nice approach. He has a number of books that are similar in nature, some cases a bit dense to read through, frankly, but I would say the how the world really works, book is easier to digest and it's it's a good entry into kind of his works and his approach to his studies. The other thing that's a plus maybe, is that he's based out of Winnipeg in Canadians, so it's great to have a mind like his, you know, contributing to the discourse in Canada.
Trevor Freeman 1:01:59
Awesome. So same question, but for a movie or a show, what's a movie or show that you think everyone should check out?
Guillaume Paradis 1:02:05
Yeah, that's a little harder. I think maybe I'll go to an old classic. For me. I'm always impressed with extreme creativity, I'll call it - in whatever forms. I think it's neat to see how people can envision a world - or create a world. And so an example for me was the Grand Budapest Hotel movie by Wes Anderson, so I think people are familiar with his work by now. I just like the combination of humor color, color like the creation of a world that doesn't quite exist but resembles one we might know. And just, you know, it's, it's a way of expressing oneself that is so interesting, so different. He does it really, really well. And, you know, I find it sort of like awe inspiring to go back to those kinds of movies and look at, certainly, there's all sorts of good content these days that's being produced, but I think this one is kind of withstood the test of time so far and kind of brings you to a different place. So I'll point to that.
Trevor Freeman 1:03:17
Yeah, it's one of those where it's not just about the story. Watching that movie is a bit of an experience. And all the ways that you just said, you know, there's like, an artificial aspect to it. There's that sort of mental, emotional side of it, and then there's the story itself, with the humor and everything. So yeah, that's a great one. I really like that.
Guillaume Paradis 1:03:35
Always fascinating to think someone was able to come up with that, right? Like that. Yeah, totally have all like, the attention to details, the way in which the storylines are integrated, the way in which the decors, the images are graphed like it's just remarkable. And, and I think in anything, it's really cool to see people who are sort of masters at their art, right? And whatever for and there's all sorts of other examples. But that one, you know, came to mind.
Trevor Freeman 1:04:09
Yeah, very cool. If you had a free round trip flight anywhere in the world, where would you go?
Guillaume Paradis 1:04:13
I think for me, it'd be somewhere very far north. I think it's on the list somewhere for the next few years, but just getting access to lands scenery that you wouldn't otherwise is really cool concept, maybe even spaces that are a bit less impacted by human you know, behavior and presence. So I just think a flight to somewhere random that maybe doesn't even have a name, but is in between two small villages that can only be accessed by a plane. I think that would be cool.
Trevor Freeman 1:04:58
Yeah, that does sound very cool. I like that. Who is someone that you admire?
Guillaume Paradis 1:05:03
Yeah, so my wife, for sure, I think that's sort of the foundation of a healthy relationship. You should have some admiration for your partner, and I absolutely do more generally. I would just point to anyone in our lives, and I think we all know people like that who spend a large amount of their time making other people's lives better. I could pick, you know, a celebrity of some kind, or politician of some kind, or even a historical figure, but, you know, I think in general, it doesn't have to be that complicated, people who just invest a lot of their time making sure others lives are better. I think that's something we should all admire, aspire to, you know, emulate, if we can, and just recognize as well. Because a lot of the times people do that, the people who do it well, don't do it for recognition. It doesn't mean they don't deserve it. And I think we should kind of try to promote it, you know, recognize it in our lives, and encourage it and emulate it, if we can.
Trevor Freeman 1:06:20
Fantastic. Well said. Last question, what is something about the energy sector or its future that you are particularly excited about?
Guillaume Paradis 1:06:25
Yeah, so I've been in the sector for about 20 years now, in fact, longer than that. My father worked for Hydro Quebec for many decades. So think we spent a lot of time talking about the future and getting excited about a future that was to come, and just the fact that we're living it now that we're actually shaping it, is pretty exciting, maybe even not appreciated to its full extent. And I think having a chance to contribute now is really awesome, and to whatever extent we can as well, I'm trying to encourage as many people as possible to join our sector, bring various backgrounds, you know, expertise, knowledge to helping us make decisions about how energy is going to be used in our society going forward, and how we can make the most this confluence of factors that create the window of opportunity to change things and make them evolve. And so for those of us who are part of it, let's not take it for granted, and let's make sure that we contribute to the full extent of our capabilities.
Trevor Freeman 1:07:45
Awesome, great, great way to wrap this up, I agree completely. Guillaume, thanks so much for your time. I really appreciate it. And sharing your thoughts with us. Really appreciate you coming on the show.
Guillaume Paradis 1:07:56
Thanks. Trevor, pleasure.
Trevor Freeman 1:07:59
Great take care. Well, there you have it everybody that was our last episode of the season before our summer break. Our regular listeners will know that we typically take a break over the summer to regroup and work on content and plan out the next year. But don't worry, we will be still releasing episodes every two weeks. They will just be rewind episodes, and we'll take a look back at some of our favorite episodes or things that we feel are particularly relevant for what's going on right now. So keep tuning in and listen to those, and we will be back with brand new content in September. Take care and have a safe summer. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review and review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback, comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at [email protected].
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Summer rewind: Greg Lindsay is an urban tech expert and a Senior Fellow at MIT. He's also a two-time Jeopardy champion and the only human to go undefeated against IBM's Watson. Greg joins thinkenergy to talk about how artificial intelligence (AI) is reshaping how we manage, consume, and produce energy—from personal devices to provincial grids, its rapid growth to the rising energy demand from AI itself. Listen in to learn how AI impacts our energy systems and what it means individually and industry-wide.
Related links:
● Greg Lindsay website: https://greglindsay.org/
● Greg Lindsay on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/greg-lindsay-8b16952/
● International Energy Agency (IEA): https://www.iea.org/
● Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/
● Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en
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Transcript:
Trevor Freeman 00:00
Hi everyone. Well, summer is here, and the think energy team is stepping back a bit to recharge and plan out some content for the next season. We hope all of you get some much needed downtime as well, but we aren't planning on leaving you hanging over the next few months, we will be re releasing some of our favorite episodes from the past year that we think really highlight innovation, sustainability and community. These episodes highlight the changing nature of how we use and manage energy, and the investments needed to expand, modernize and strengthen our grid in response to that. All of this driven by people and our changing needs and relationship to energy as we move forward into a cleaner, more electrified future, the energy transition, as we talk about many times on this show. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll be back with all new content in September. Until then, happy listening.
Trevor Freeman 00:55
Welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at think energy at hydro ottawa.com, Hi everyone. Welcome back. Artificial intelligence, or AI, is a term that you're likely seeing and hearing everywhere today, and with good reason, the effectiveness and efficiency of today's AI, along with the ever increasing applications and use cases mean that in just the past few years, AI went from being a little bit fringe, maybe a little bit theoretical to very real and likely touching everyone's day to day lives in ways that we don't even notice, and we're just at the beginning of what looks to be a wave of many different ways that AI will shape and influence our society and our lives in the years to come. And the world of energy is no different. AI has the potential to change how we manage energy at all levels, from our individual devices and homes and businesses all the way up to our grids at the local, provincial and even national and international levels. At the same time, AI is also a massive consumer of energy, and the proliferation of AI data centers is putting pressure on utilities for more and more power at an unprecedented pace. But before we dive into all that, I also think it will be helpful to define what AI is. After all, the term isn't new. Like me, many of our listeners may have grown up hearing about Skynet from Terminator, or how from 2001 A Space Odyssey, but those malignant, almost sentient versions of AI aren't really what we're talking about here today. And to help shed some light on both what AI is as well as what it can do and how it might influence the world of energy, my guest today is Greg Lindsay, to put it in technical jargon, Greg's bio is super neat, so I do want to take time to run through it properly. Greg is a non resident Senior Fellow of MIT's future urban collectives lab Arizona State University's threat casting lab and the Atlantic Council's Scowcroft center for strategy and security. Most recently, he was a 2022-2023 urban tech Fellow at Cornell Tech's Jacobs Institute, where he explored the implications of AI and augmented reality at an urban scale. Previously, he was an urbanist in resident, which is a pretty cool title, at BMW minis urban tech accelerator, urban X, as well as the director of Applied Research at Montreal's new cities and Founding Director of Strategy at its mobility focused offshoot, co motion. He's advised such firms as Intel, Samsung, Audi, Hyundai, IKEA and Starbucks, along with numerous government entities such as 10 Downing Street, us, Department of Energy and NATO. And finally, and maybe coolest of all, Greg is also a two time Jeopardy champion and the only human to go undefeated against IBM's Watson. So on that note, Greg Lindsey, welcome to the show.
Greg Lindsay 04:14
Great to be here. Thanks for having me. Trevor,
Trevor Freeman 04:16
So Greg, we're here to talk about AI and the impacts that AI is going to have on energy, but AI is a bit of one of those buzzwords that we hear out there in a number of different spheres today. So let's start by setting the stage of what exactly we're talking about. So what do we mean when we say AI or artificial intelligence?
Speaker 1 04:37
Well, I'd say the first thing to keep in mind is that it is neither artificial nor intelligence. It's actually composites of many human hands making it. And of course, it's not truly intelligent either. I think there's at least two definitions for the layman's purposes. One is statistical machine learning. You know that is the previous generation of AI, we could say, doing deep, deep statistical analysis, looking for patterns fitting to. Patterns doing prediction. There's a great book, actually, by some ut professors at monk called prediction machines, which that was a great way of thinking about machine learning and sense of being able to do large scale prediction at scale. And that's how I imagine hydro, Ottawa and others are using this to model out network efficiencies and predictive maintenance and all these great uses. And then the newer, trendier version, of course, is large language models, your quads, your chat gpts, your others, which are based on transformer models, which is a whole series of work that many Canadians worked on, including Geoffrey Hinton and others. And this is what has produced the seemingly magical abilities to produce text and images on demand and large scale analysis. And that is the real power hungry beast that we think of as AI today.
Trevor Freeman 05:42
Right! So different types of AI. I just want to pick those apart a little bit. When you say machine learning, it's kind of being able to repetitively look at something or a set of data over and over and over again. And because it's a computer, it can do it, you know, 1000s or millions of times a second, and learn what, learn how to make decisions based on that. Is that fair to say?
Greg Lindsay 06:06
That's fair to say. And the thing about that is, is like you can train it on an output that you already know, large language models are just vomiting up large parts of pattern recognition, which, again, can feel like magic because of our own human brains doing it. But yeah, machine learning, you can, you know, you can train it to achieve outcomes. You can overfit the models where it like it's trained too much in the past, but, yeah, it's a large scale probabilistic prediction of things, which makes it so powerful for certain uses.
Trevor Freeman 06:26
Yeah, one of the neatest explanations or examples I've seen is, you know, you've got these language models where it seems like this AI, whether it's chat, DBT or whatever, is writing really well, like, you know, it's improving our writing. It's making things sound better. And it seems like it's got a brain behind it, but really, what it's doing is it's going out there saying, What have millions or billions of other people written like this? And how can I take the best things of that? And it can just do that really quickly, and it's learned that that model, so that's super helpful to understand what we're talking about here. So obviously, in your work, you look at the impact of AI on a number of different aspects of our world, our society. What we're talking about here today is particularly the impact of AI when it comes to energy. And I'd like to kind of bucketize our conversation a little bit today, and the first area I want to look at is, what will ai do when it comes to energy for the average Canadian? Let's say so in my home, in my business, how I move around? So I'll start with that. It's kind of a high level conversation. Let's start talking about the different ways that AI will impact you know that our average listener here?
Speaker 1 07:41
Um, yeah, I mean, we can get into a discussion about what it means for the average Canadian, and then also, of course, what it means for Canada in the world as well, because I just got back from South by Southwest in Austin, and, you know, for the second, third year in row, AI was on everyone's lips. But really it's the energy. Is the is the bottleneck. It's the forcing factor. Everyone talked about it, the fact that all the data centers we can get into that are going to be built in the direction of energy. So, so, yeah, energy holds the key to the puzzle there. But, um, you know, from the average gain standpoint, I mean, it's a question of, like, how will these tools actually play out, you know, inside of the companies that are using this, right? And that was a whole other discussion too. It's like, okay, we've been playing around with these tools for two, three years now, what do they actually use to deliver value of your large language model? So I've been saying this for 10 years. If you look at the older stuff you could start with, like smart thermostats, even look at the potential savings of this, of basically using machine learning to optimize, you know, grid optimize patterns of usage, understanding, you know, the ebbs and flows of the grid, and being able to, you know, basically send instructions back and forth. So you know there's stats. You know that, basically you know that you know you could save 10 to 25% of electricity bills. You know, based on this, you could reduce your heating bills by 10 to 15% again, it's basically using this at very large scales of the scale of hydro Ottawa, bigger, to understand this sort of pattern usage. But even then, like understanding like how weather forecasts change, and pulling that data back in to basically make fine tuning adjustments to the thermostats and things like that. So that's one stands out. And then, you know, we can think about longer term. I mean, yeah, lots have been lots has been done on imagining, like electric mobility, of course, huge in Canada, and what that's done to sort of change the overall energy mix virtual power plants. This is something that I've studied, and we've been writing about at Fast Company. At Fast Company beyond for 20 years, imagining not just, you know, the ability to basically, you know, feed renewable electricity back into the grid from people's solar or from whatever sources they have there, but the ability of utilities to basically go in and fine tune, to have that sort of demand shaping as well. And then I think the most interesting stuff, at least in demos, and also blockchain, which has had many theoretical uses, and I've got to see a real one. But one of the best theoretical ones was being able to create neighborhood scale utilities. Basically my cul de sac could have one, and we could trade clean electrons off of our solar panels through our batteries and home scale batteries, using Blockchain to basically balance this out. Yeah, so there's lots of potential, but yeah, it comes back to the notion of people want cheaper utility bills. I did this piece 10 years ago for the Atlantic Council on this we looked at a multi country survey, and the only reason anybody wanted a smart home, which they just were completely skeptical about, was to get those cheaper utility bills. So people pay for that.
Trevor Freeman 10:19
I think it's an important thing to remember, obviously, especially for like the nerds like me, who part of my driver is, I like that cool new tech. I like that thing that I can play with and see my data. But for most people, no matter what we're talking about here, when it comes to that next technology, the goal is make my life a little bit easier, give me more time or whatever, and make things cheaper. And I think especially in the energy space, people aren't putting solar panels on their roof because it looks great. And, yeah, maybe people do think it looks great, but they're putting it up there because they want cheaper electricity. And it's going to be the same when it comes to batteries. You know, there's that add on of resiliency and reliability, but at the end of the day, yeah, I want my bill to be cheaper. And what I'm hearing from you is some of the things we've already seen, like smart thermostats get better as AI gets better. Is that fair to say?
Greg Lindsay 11:12
Well, yeah, on the machine learning side, that you know, you get ever larger data points. This is why data is the coin of the realm. This is why there's a race to collect data on everything. Is why every business model is data collection and everything. Because, yes, not only can they get better, but of course, you know, you compile enough and eventually start finding statistical inferences you never meant to look for. And this is why I've been involved. Just as a side note, for example, of cities that have tried to implement their own data collection of electric scooters and eventually electric vehicles so they could understand these kinds of patterns, it's really the key to anything. And so it's that efficiency throughput which raises some really interesting philosophical questions, particularly about AI like, this is the whole discussion on deep seek. Like, if you make the models more efficient, do you have a Jevons paradox, which is the paradox of, like, the more energy you save through efficiency, the more you consume because you've made it cheaper. So what does this mean that you know that Canadian energy consumption is likely to go up the cleaner and cheaper the electrons get. It's one of those bedeviling sort of functions.
Trevor Freeman 12:06
Yeah interesting. That's definitely an interesting way of looking at it. And you referenced this earlier, and I will talk about this. But at the macro level, the amount of energy needed for these, you know, AI data centers in order to do all this stuff is, you know, we're seeing that explode.
Greg Lindsay 12:22
Yeah, I don't know that. Canadian statistics my fingertips, but I brought this up at Fast Company, like, you know, the IEA, I think International Energy Agency, you know, reported a 4.3% growth in the global electricity grid last year, and it's gonna be 4% this year. That does not sound like much. That is the equivalent of Japan. We're adding in Japan every year to the grid for at least the next two to three years. Wow. And that, you know, that's global South, air conditioning and other needs here too, but that the data centers on top is like the tip of the spear. It's changed all this consumption behavior, where now we're seeing mothballed coal plants and new plants and Three Mile Island come back online, as this race for locking up electrons, for, you know, the race to build God basically, the number of people in AI who think they're literally going to build weekly godlike intelligences, they'll, they won't stop at any expense. And so they will buy as much energy as they can get.
Trevor Freeman 13:09
Yeah, well, we'll get to that kind of grid side of things in a minute. Let's stay at the home first. So when I look at my house, we talked about smart thermostats. We're seeing more and more automation when it comes to our homes. You know, we can program our lights and our door locks and all this kind of stuff. What does ai do in order to make sure that stuff is contributing to efficiency? So I want to do all those fun things, but use the least amount of energy possible.
Greg Lindsay 13:38
Well, you know, I mean, there's, again, there's various metrics there to basically, sort of, you know, program your lights. And, you know, Nest is, you know, Google. Nest is an example of this one, too, in terms of basically learning your ebb and flow and then figuring out how to optimize it over the course of the day. So you can do that, you know, we've seen, again, like the home level. We've seen not only the growth in solar panels, but also in those sort of home battery integration. I was looking up that Tesla Powerwall was doing just great in Canada, until the last couple of months. I assume so, but I it's been, it's been heartening to see that, yeah, this sort of embrace of home energy integration, and so being able to level out, like, peak flow off the grid, so Right? Like being able to basically, at moments of peak demand, to basically draw on your own local resources and reduce that overall strain. So there's been interesting stuff there. But I want to focus for a moment on, like, terms of thinking about new uses. Because, you know, again, going back to how AI will influence the home and automation. You know, Jensen Wong of Nvidia has talked about how this will be the year of robotics. Google, Gemini just applied their models to robotics. There's startups like figure there's, again, Tesla with their optimists, and, yeah, there's a whole strain of thought that we're about to see, like home robotics, perhaps a dream from like, the 50s. I think this is a very Disney World esque Epcot Center, yeah, with this idea of jetsy, yeah, of having home robots doing work. You can see concept videos a figure like doing the actual vacuuming. I mean, we invented Roombas to this, but, but it also, I, you know, I've done a lot of work. Our own thinking around electric delivery vehicles. We could talk a lot about drones. We could talk a lot about the little robots that deliver meals on the sidewalk. There's a lot of money in business models about increasing access and people needing to maybe move less, to drive and do all these trips to bring it to them. And that's a form of home automation, and that's all batteries. That is all stuff off the grid too. So AI is that enable those things, these things that can think and move and fly and do stuff and do services on your behalf, and so people might find this huge new source of demand from that as well.
Trevor Freeman 15:29
Yeah, that's I hadn't really thought about the idea that all the all these sort of conveniences and being able to summon them to our homes cause us to move around less, which also impacts transportation, which is another area I kind of want to get to. And I know you've, you've talked a little bit about E mobility, so where do you see that going? And then, how does AI accelerate that transition, or accelerate things happening in that space?
Greg Lindsay 15:56
Yeah, I mean, I again, obviously the EV revolutions here Canada like, one of the epicenters Canada, Norway there, you know, that still has the vehicle rebates and things. So, yeah. I mean, we've seen, I'm here in Montreal, I think we've got, like, you know, 30 to 13% of sales is there, and we've got our 2035, mandate. So, yeah. I mean, you see this push, obviously, to harness all of Canada's clean, mostly hydro electricity, to do this, and, you know, reduce its dependence on fossil fuels for either, you know, Climate Change Politics reasons, but also just, you know, variable energy prices. So all of that matters. But, you know, I think the key to, like the electric mobility revolution, again, is, is how it's going to merge with AI and it's, you know, it's not going to just be the autonomous, self driving car, which is sort of like the horseless carriage of autonomy. It's gonna be all this other stuff, you know. My friend Dan Hill was in China, and he was thinking about like, electric scooters, you know. And I mentioned this to hydro Ottawa, like, the electric scooter is one of the leading causes of how we've taken internal combustion engine vehicles offline across the world, mostly in China, and put people on clean electric motors. What happens when you take those and you make those autonomous, and you do it with, like, deep seek and some cameras, and you sort of weld it all together so you could have a world of a lot more stuff in motion, and not just this world where we have to drive as much. And that, to me, is really exciting, because that changes, like urban patterns, development patterns, changes how you move around life, those kinds of things as well. That's that might be a little farther out, but, but, yeah, this sort of like this big push to build out domestic battery industries, to build charging points and the sort of infrastructure there, I think it's going to go in direction, but it doesn't look anything like, you know, a sedan or an SUV that just happens to be electric.
Trevor Freeman 17:33
I think that's a the step change is change the drive train of the existing vehicles we have, you know, an internal combustion to a battery. The exponential change is exactly what you're saying. It's rethinking this.
Greg Lindsay 17:47
Yeah, Ramesam and others have pointed out, I mean, again, like this, you know, it's, it's really funny to see this pushback on EVs, you know. I mean, I love a good, good roar of an internal combustion engine myself, but, but like, you know, Ramesam was an energy analyst, has pointed out that, like, you know, EVS were more cost competitive with ice cars in 2018 that's like, nearly a decade ago. And yeah, the efficiency of electric motors, particularly regenerative braking and everything, it just blows the cost curves away of ice though they will become the equivalent of keeping a thorough brat around your house kind of thing. Yeah, so, so yeah, it's just, it's that overall efficiency of the drive train. And that's the to me, the interesting thing about both electric motors, again, of autonomy is like, those are general purpose technologies. They get cheaper and smaller as they evolve under Moore's Law and other various laws, and so they get to apply to more and more stuff.
Trevor Freeman 18:32
Yeah. And then when you think about once, we kind of figure that out, and we're kind of already there, or close to it, if not already there, then it's opening the door to those other things you're talking about. Of, well, do we, does everybody need to have that car in their driveway? Are we rethinking how we're actually just doing transportation in general? And do we need a delivery truck? Or can it be delivery scooter? Or what does that look like?
Greg Lindsay 18:54
Well, we had a lot of those discussions for a long time, particularly in the mobility space, right? Like, and like ride hailing, you know, like, oh, you know, that was always the big pitch of an Uber is, you know, your car's parked in your driveway, like 94% of the time. You know, what happens if you're able to have no mobility? Well, we've had 15 years of Uber and these kinds of services, and we still have as many cars. But people are also taking this for mobility. It's additive. And I raised this question, this notion of like, it's just sort of more and more, more options, more availability, more access. Because the same thing seems to be going on with energy now too. You know, listeners been following along, like the conversation in Houston, you know, a week or two ago at Sarah week, like it's the whole notion of energy realism. And, you know, there's the new book out, more is more is more, which is all about the fact that we've never had an energy transition. We just kept piling up. Like the world burned more biomass last year than it did in 1900 it burned more coal last year than it did at the peak of coal. Like these ages don't really end. They just become this sort of strata as we keep piling energy up on top of it. And you know, I'm trying to sound the alarm that we won't have an energy transition. What that means for climate change? But similar thing, it's. This rebound effect, the Jevons paradox, named after Robert Stanley Jevons in his book The question of coal, where he noted the fact that, like, England was going to need more and more coal. So it's a sobering thought. But, like, I mean, you know, it's a glass half full, half empty in many ways, because the half full is like increasing technological options, increasing changes in lifestyle. You can live various ways you want, but, but, yeah, it's like, I don't know if any of it ever really goes away. We just get more and more stuff,
Trevor Freeman 20:22
Exactly, well. And, you know, to hear you talk about the robotics side of things, you know, looking at the home, yeah, more, definitely more. Okay, so we talked about kind of home automation. We've talked about transportation, how we get around. What about energy management? And I think about this at the we'll talk about the utility side again in a little bit. But, you know, at my house, or for my own personal use in my life, what is the role of, like, sort of machine learning and AI, when it comes to just helping me manage my own energy better and make better decisions when it comes to energy? ,
Greg Lindsay 20:57
Yeah, I mean, this is where it like comes in again. And you know, I'm less and less of an expert here, but I've been following this sort of discourse evolve. And right? It's the idea of, you know, yeah, create, create. This the set of tools in your home, whether it's solar panels or batteries or, you know, or Two Way Direct, bi directional to the grid, however it works. And, yeah, and people, you know, given this option of savings, and perhaps, you know, other marketing messages there to curtail behavior. You know? I mean, I think the short answer the question is, like, it's an app people want, an app that tell them basically how to increase the efficiency of their house or how to do this. And I should note that like, this has like been the this is the long term insight when it comes to like energy and the clean tech revolution. Like my Emery Levin says this great line, which I've always loved, which is, people don't want energy. They want hot showers and cold beer. And, you know, how do you, how do you deliver those things through any combination of sticks and carrots, basically like that. So, So, hence, why? Like, again, like, you know, you know, power walls, you know, and, and, and, you know, other sort of AI controlled batteries here that basically just sort of smooth out to create the sort of optimal flow of electrons into your house, whether that's coming drive directly off the grid or whether it's coming out of your backup and then recharging that the time, you know, I mean, the surveys show, like, more than half of Canadians are interested in this stuff, you know, they don't really know. I've got one set here, like, yeah, 61% are interested in home energy tech, but only 27 understand, 27% understand how to optimize them. So, yeah. So people need, I think, perhaps, more help in handing that over. And obviously, what's exciting for the, you know, the utility level is, like, you know, again, aggregate all that individual behavior together and you get more models that, hope you sort of model this out, you know, at both greater scale and ever more fine grained granularity there. So, yeah, exactly. So I think it's really interesting, you know, I don't know, like, you know, people have gamified it. What was it? I think I saw, like, what is it? The affordability fund trust tried to basically gamify AI energy apps, and it created various savings there. But a lot of this is gonna be like, as a combination like UX design and incentives design and offering this to people too, about, like, why you should want this and money's one reason, but maybe there's others.
Trevor Freeman 22:56
Yeah, and we talk about in kind of the utility sphere, we talk about how customers, they don't want all the data, and then have to go make their own decisions. They want those decisions to be made for them, and they want to say, look, I want to have you tell me the best rate plan to be on. I want to have you automatically switch me to the best rate plan when my consumption patterns change and my behavior chat patterns change. That doesn't exist today, but sort of that fast decision making that AI brings will let that become a reality sometime in the future,
Greg Lindsay 23:29
And also in theory, this is where LLMs come into play. Is like, you know, to me, what excites me the most about that is the first time, like having a true natural language interface, like having being able to converse with an, you know, an AI, let's hopefully not chat bot. I think we're moving out on chat bots, but some sort of sort of instantiation of an AI to be like, what plan should I be on? Can you tell me what my behavior is here and actually having some sort of real language conversation with it? Not decision trees, not event statements, not chat bots.
Trevor Freeman 23:54
Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so we've kind of teased around this idea of looking at the utility levels, obviously, at hydro Ottawa, you referenced this just a minute ago. We look at all these individual cases, every home that has home automation or solar storage, and we want to aggregate that and understand what, what can we do to help manage the grid, help manage all these new energy needs, shift things around. So let's talk a little bit about the role that AI can play at the utility scale in helping us manage the grid.
Greg Lindsay 24:28
All right? Well, yeah, there's couple ways to approach it. So one, of course, is like, let's go back to, like, smart meters, right? Like, and this is where I don't know how many hydro Ottawa has, but I think, like, BC Hydro has like, 2 million of them, sometimes they get politicized, because, again, this gets back to this question of, like, just, just how much nanny state you want. But, you know, you know, when you reach the millions, like, yeah, you're able to get that sort of, you know, obviously real time, real time usage, real time understanding. And again, if you can do that sort of grid management piece where you can then push back, it's visual game changer. But, but yeah. I mean, you know, yeah, be. See hydro is pulling in. I think I read like, like, basically 200 million data points a day. So that's a lot to train various models on. And, you know, I don't know exactly the kind of savings they have, but you can imagine there, whether it's, you know, them, or Toronto Hydro, or hydro Ottawa and others creating all these monitoring points. And again, this is the thing that bedells me, by the way, just philosophically about modern life, the notion of like, but I don't want you to be collecting data off me at all times, but look at what you can do if you do It's that constant push pull of some sort of combination of privacy and agency, and then just the notion of like statistics, but, but there you are, but, but, yeah, but at the grid level, then I mean, like, yeah. I mean, you can sort of do the same thing where, like, you know, I mean, predictive maintenance is the obvious one, right? I have been writing about this for large enterprise software companies for 20 years, about building these data points, modeling out the lifetime of various important pieces equipment, making sure you replace them before you have downtime and terrible things happen. I mean, as we're as we're discussing this, look at poor Heathrow Airport. I am so glad I'm not flying today, electrical substation blowing out two days of the world's most important hub offline. So that's where predictive maintenance comes in from there. And, yeah, I mean, I, you know, I again, you know, modeling out, you know, energy flow to prevent grid outages, whether that's, you know, the ice storm here in Quebec a couple years ago. What was that? April 23 I think it was, yeah, coming up in two years. Or our last ice storm, we're not the big one, but that one, you know, where we had big downtime across the grid, like basically monitoring that and then I think the other big one for AI is like, Yeah, is this, this notion of having some sort of decision support as well, too, and sense of, you know, providing scenarios and modeling out at scale the potential of it? And I don't think, I don't know about this in a grid case, but the most interesting piece I wrote for Fast Company 20 years ago was an example, ago was an example of this, which was a fledgling air taxi startup, but they were combining an agent based model, so using primitive AI to create simple rules for individual agents and build a model of how they would behave, which you can create much more complex models. Now we could talk about agents and then marrying that to this kind of predictive maintenance and operations piece, and marrying the two together. And at that point, you could have a company that didn't exist, but that could basically model itself in real time every day in the life of what it is. You can create millions and millions and millions of Monte Carlo operations. And I think that's where perhaps both sides of AI come together truly like the large language models and agents, and then the predictive machine learning. And you could basically hydro or others, could build this sort of deep time machine where you can model out all of these scenarios, millions and millions of years worth, to understand how it flows and contingencies as well. And that's where it sort of comes up. So basically something happens. And like, not only do you have a set of plans, you have an AI that has done a million sets of these plans, and can imagine potential next steps of this, or where to deploy resources. And I think in general, that's like the most powerful use of this, going back to prediction machines and just being able to really model time in a way that we've never had that capability before. And so you probably imagine the use is better than I.
Trevor Freeman 27:58
Oh man, it's super fascinating, and it's timely. We've gone through the last little while at hydro Ottawa, an exercise of updating our playbook for emergencies. So when there are outages, what kind of outage? What's the sort of, what are the trigger points to go from, you know, what we call a level one to a level two to level three. But all of this is sort of like people hours that are going into that, and we're thinking through these scenarios, and we've got a handful of them, and you're just kind of making me think, well, yeah, what if we were able to model that out? And you bring up this concept of agents, let's tease into that a little bit explain what you mean when you're talking about agents.
Greg Lindsay 28:36
Yeah, so agentic systems, as the term of art is, AI instantiations that have some level of autonomy. And the archetypal example of this is the Stanford Smallville experiment, where they took basically a dozen large language models and they gave it an architecture where they could give it a little bit of backstory, ruminate on it, basically reflect, think, decide, and then act. And in this case, they used it to plan a Valentine's Day party. So they played out real time, and the LLM agents, like, even played matchmaker. They organized the party, they sent out invitations, they did these sorts of things. Was very cute. They put it out open source, and like, three weeks later, another team of researchers basically put them to work writing software programs. So you can see they organized their own workflow. They made their own decisions. There was a CTO. They fact check their own work. And this is evolving into this grand vision of, like, 1000s, millions of agents, just like, just like you spin up today an instance of Amazon Web Services to, like, host something in the cloud. You're going to spin up an agent Nvidia has talked about doing with healthcare and others. So again, coming back to like, the energy implications of that, because it changes the whole pattern. Instead of huge training runs requiring giant data centers. You know, it's these agents who are making all these calls and doing more stuff at the edge, but, um, but yeah, in this case, it's the notion of, you know, what can you put the agents to work doing? And I bring this up again, back to, like, predictive maintenance, or for hydro Ottawa, there's another amazing paper called virtual in real life. And I chatted with one of the principal authors. It created. A half dozen agents who could play tour guide, who could direct you to a coffee shop, who do these sorts of things, but they weren't doing it in a virtual world. They were doing it in the real one. And to do it in the real world, you took the agent, you gave them a machine vision capability, so added that model so they could recognize objects, and then you set them loose inside a digital twin of the world, in this case, something very simple, Google Street View. And so in the paper, they could go into like New York Central Park, and they could count every park bench and every waste bin and do it in seconds and be 99% accurate. And so agents were monitoring the landscape. Everything's up, because you can imagine this in the real world too, that we're going to have all the time. AIS roaming the world, roaming these virtual maps, these digital twins that we build for them and constantly refresh from them, from camera data, from sensor data, from other stuff, and tell us what this is. And again, to me, it's really exciting, because that's finally like an operating system for the internet of things that makes sense, that's not so hardwired that you can ask agents, can you go out and look for this for me? Can you report back on this vital system for me? And they will be able to hook into all of these kinds of representations of real time data where they're emerging from, and give you aggregated reports on this one. And so, you know, I think we have more visibility in real time into the real world than we've ever had before.
Trevor Freeman 31:13
Yeah, I want to, I want to connect a few dots here for our listeners. So bear with me for a second. Greg. So for our listeners, there was a podcast episode we did about a year ago on our grid modernization roadmap, and we talked about one of the things we're doing with grid modernization at hydro Ottawa and utilities everywhere doing this is increasing the sensor data from our grid. So we're, you know, right now, we've got visibility sort of to our station level, sometimes one level down to some switches. But in the future, we'll have sensors everywhere on our grid, every switch, every device on our grid, will have a sensor gathering data. Obviously, you know, like you said earlier, millions and hundreds of millions of data points every second coming in. No human can kind of make decisions on that, and what you're describing is, so now we've got all this data points, we've got a network of information out there, and you could create this agent to say, Okay, you are. You're my transformer agent. Go out there and have a look at the run temperature of every transformer on the network, and tell me where the anomalies are, which ones are running a half a degree or two degrees warmer than they should be, and report back. And now I know hydro Ottawa, that the controller, the person sitting in the room, knows, Hey, we should probably go roll a truck and check on that transformer, because maybe it's getting end of life. Maybe it's about to go and you can do that across the entire grid. That's really fascinating,
Greg Lindsay 32:41
And it's really powerful, because, I mean, again, these conversations 20 years ago at IoT, you know you're going to have statistical triggers, and you would aggregate these data coming off this, and there was a lot of discussion there, but it was still very, like hardwired, and still very Yeah, I mean, I mean very probabilistic, I guess, for a word that went with agents like, yeah, you've now created an actual thing that can watch those numbers and they can aggregate from other systems. I mean, lots, lots of potential there hasn't quite been realized, but it's really exciting stuff. And this is, of course, where that whole direction of the industry is flowing. It's on everyone's lips, agents.
Trevor Freeman 33:12
Yeah. Another term you mentioned just a little bit ago that I want you to explain is a digital twin. So tell us what a digital twin is.
Greg Lindsay 33:20
So a digital twin is, well, the matrix. Perhaps you could say something like this for listeners of a certain age, but the digital twin is the idea of creating a model of a piece of equipment, of a city, of the world, of a system. And it is, importantly, it's physics based. It's ideally meant to represent and capture the real time performance of the physical object it's based on, and in this digital representation, when something happens in the physical incarnation of it, it triggers a corresponding change in state in the digital twin, and then vice versa. In theory, you know, you could have feedback loops, again, a lot of IoT stuff here, if you make changes virtually, you know, perhaps it would cause a change in behavior of the system or equipment, and the scales can change from, you know, factory equipment. Siemens, for example, does a lot of digital twin work on this. You know, SAP, big, big software companies have thought about this. But the really crazy stuff is, like, what Nvidia is proposing. So first they started with a digital twin. They very modestly called earth two, where they were going to model all the weather and climate systems of the planet down to like the block level. There's a great demo of like Jensen Wong walking you through a hurricane, typhoons striking the Taipei, 101, and how, how the wind currents are affecting the various buildings there, and how they would change that more recently, what Nvidia is doing now is, but they just at their big tech investor day, they just partner with General Motors and others to basically do autonomous cars. And what's crucial about it, they're going to train all those autonomous vehicles in an NVIDIA built digital twin in a matrix that will act, that will be populated by agents that will act like people, people ish, and they will be able to run millions of years of autonomous vehicle training in this and this is how they plan to catch up to. Waymo or, you know, if Tesla's robotaxis are ever real kind of thing, you know, Waymo built hardwired like trained on real world streets, and that's why they can only operate in certain operating domain environments. Nvidia is gambling that with large language models and transformer models combined with digital twins, you can do these huge leapfrog effects where you can basically train all sorts of synthetic agents in real world behavior that you have modeled inside the machine. So again, that's the kind, that's exactly the kind of, you know, environment that you're going to train, you know, your your grid of the future on for modeling out all your contingency scenarios.
Trevor Freeman 35:31
Yeah, again, you know, for to bring this to the to our context, a couple of years ago, we had our the direcco. It's a big, massive windstorm that was one of the most damaging storms that we've had in Ottawa's history, and we've made some improvements since then, and we've actually had some great performance since then. Imagine if we could model that derecho hitting our grid from a couple different directions and figure out, well, which lines are more vulnerable to wind speeds, which lines are more vulnerable to flying debris and trees, and then go address that and do something with that, without having to wait for that storm to hit. You know, once in a decade or longer, the other use case that we've talked about on this one is just modeling what's happening underground. So, you know, in an urban environments like Ottawa, like Montreal, where you are, there's tons of infrastructure under the ground, sewer pipes, water pipes, gas lines, electrical lines, and every time the city wants to go and dig up a road and replace that road, replace that sewer, they have to know what's underground. We want to know what's underground there, because our infrastructure is under there. As the electric utility. Imagine if you had a model where you can it's not just a map. You can actually see what's happening underground and determine what makes sense to go where, and model out these different scenarios of if we underground this line or that line there. So lots of interesting things when it comes to a digital twin. The digital twin and Agent combination is really interesting as well, and setting those agents loose on a model that they can play with and understand and learn from. So talk a little bit about.
Greg Lindsay 37:11
that. Yeah. Well, there's a couple interesting implications just the underground, you know, equipment there. One is interesting because in addition to, like, you know, you know, having captured that data through mapping and other stuff there, and having agents that could talk about it. So, you know, next you can imagine, you know, I've done some work with augmented reality XR. This is sort of what we're seeing again, you know, meta Orion has shown off their concept. Google's brought back Android XR. Meta Ray Bans are kind of an example of this. But that's where this data will come from, right? It's gonna be people wearing these wearables in the world, capturing all this camera data and others that's gonna be fed into these digital twins to refresh them. Meta has a particularly scary demo where you know where you the user, the wearer leaves their keys on their coffee table and asks metas, AI, where their coffee where their keys are, and it knows where they are. It tells them and goes back and shows them some data about it. I'm like, well, to do that, meta has to have a complete have a complete real time map of your entire house. What could go wrong. And that's what all these companies aspire to of reality. So, but yeah, you can imagine, you know, you can imagine a worker. And I've worked with a startup out of urban X, a Canada startup, Canadian startup called context steer. And you know, is the idea of having real time instructions and knowledge manuals available to workers, particularly predictive maintenance workers and line workers. So you can imagine a technician dispatched to deal with this cut in the pavement and being able to see with XR and overlay of like, what's actually under there from the digital twin, having an AI basically interface with what's sort of the work order, and basically be your assistant that can help you walk you through it, in case, you know, you run into some sort of complication there, hopefully that won't be, you know, become like, turn, turn by turn, directions for life that gets into, like, some of the questions about what we wanted out of our workforce. But there's some really interesting combinations of those things, of like, you know, yeah, mapping a world for AIS, ais that can understand it, that could ask questions in it, that can go probe it, that can give you advice on what to do in it. All those things are very close for good and for bad.
Trevor Freeman 39:03
You kind of touched on my next question here is, how do we make sure this is all in the for good or mostly in the for good category, and not the for bad category you talk in one of the papers that you wrote about, you know, AI and augmented reality in particular, really expanding the attack surface for malicious actors. So we're creating more opportunities for whatever the case may be, if it's hacking or if it's malware, or if it's just, you know, people that are up to nefarious things. How do we protect against that? How do we make sure that our systems are safe that the users of our system. So in our case, our customers, their data is safe, their the grid is safe. How do we make sure that?
Greg Lindsay 39:49
Well, the very short version is, whatever we're spending on cybersecurity, we're not spending enough. And honestly, like everybody who is no longer learning to code, because we can be a quad or ChatGPT to do it, I. Is probably there should be a whole campaign to repurpose a big chunk of tech workers into cybersecurity, into locking down these systems, into training ethical systems. There's a lot of work to be done there. But yeah, that's been the theme for you know that I've seen for 10 years. So that paper I mentioned about sort of smart homes, the Internet of Things, and why people would want a smart home? Well, yeah, the reason people were skeptical is because they saw it as basically a giant attack vector. My favorite saying about this is, is, there's a famous Arthur C Clarke quote that you know, any sufficiently advanced technology is magic Tobias Ravel, who works at Arup now does their head of foresight has this great line, any sufficiently advanced hacking will feel like a haunting meaning. If you're in a smart home that's been hacked, it will feel like you're living in a haunted house. Lights will flicker on and off, and systems will turn and go haywire. It'll be like you're living with a possessed house. And that's true of cities or any other systems. So we need to do a lot of work on just sort of like locking that down and securing that data, and that is, you know, we identified, then it has to go all the way up and down the supply chain, like you have to make sure that there is, you know, a chain of custody going back to when components are made, because a lot of the attacks on nest, for example. I mean, you want to take over a Google nest, take it off the wall and screw the back out of it, which is a good thing. It's not that many people are prying open our thermostats, but yeah, if you can get your hands on it, you can do a lot of these systems, and you can do it earlier in the supply chain and sorts of infected pieces and things. So there's a lot to be done there. And then, yeah, and then, yeah, and then there's just a question of, you know, making sure that the AIs are ethically trained and reinforced. And, you know, a few people want to listeners, want to scare themselves. You can go out and read some of the stuff leaking out of anthropic and others and make clot of, you know, models that are trying to hide their own alignments and trying to, like, basically copy themselves. Again, I don't believe that anything things are alive or intelligent, but they exhibit these behaviors as part of the probabilistic that's kind of scary. So there's a lot to be done there. But yeah, we worked on this, the group that I do foresight with Arizona State University threat casting lab. We've done some work for the Secret Service and for NATO and, yeah, there'll be, you know, large scale hackings on infrastructure. Basically the equivalent can be the equivalent can be the equivalent to a weapons of mass destruction attack. We saw how Russia targeted in 2014 the Ukrainian grid and hacked their nuclear plans. This is essential infrastructure more important than ever, giving global geopolitics say the least, so that needs to be under consideration. And I don't know, did I scare you enough yet? What are the things we've talked through here that, say the least about, you know, people being, you know, tricked and incepted by their AI girlfriends, boyfriends. You know people who are trying to AI companions. I can't possibly imagine what could go wrong there.
Trevor Freeman 42:29
I mean, it's just like, you know, I don't know if this is 15 or 20, or maybe even 25 years ago now, like, it requires a whole new level of understanding when we went from a completely analog world to a digital world and living online, and people, I would hope, to some degree, learned to be skeptical of things on the internet and learned that this is that next level. We now need to learn the right way of interacting with this stuff. And as you mentioned, building the sort of ethical code and ethical guidelines into these language models into the AI. Learning is pretty critical for our listeners. We do have a podcast episode on cybersecurity. I encourage you to go listen to it and reassure yourself that, yes, we are thinking about this stuff. And thanks, Greg, you've given us lots more to think about in that area as well. When it comes to again, looking back at utilities and managing the grid, one thing we're going to see, and we've talked a lot about this on the show, is a lot more distributed generation. So we're, you know, the days of just the central, large scale generation, long transmission lines that being the only generation on the grid. Those days are ending. We're going to see more distributed generations, solar panels on roofs, batteries. How does AI help a utility manage those better, interact with those better get more value out of those things?
Greg Lindsay 43:51
I guess that's sort of like an extension of some of the trends I was talking about earlier, which is the notion of, like, being able to model complex systems. I mean, that's effectively it, right, like you've got an increasingly complex grid with complex interplays between it, you know, figuring out how to basically based on real world performance, based on what you're able to determine about where there are correlations and codependencies in the grid, where point where choke points could emerge, where overloading could happen, and then, yeah, basically, sort of building that predictive system to Basically, sort of look for what kind of complex emergent behavior comes out of as you keep adding to it and and, you know, not just, you know, based on, you know, real world behavior, but being able to dial that up to 11, so to speak, and sort of imagine sort of these scenarios, or imagine, you know, what, what sort of long term scenarios look like in terms of, like, what the mix, how the mix changes, how the geography changes, all those sorts of things. So, yeah, I don't know how that plays out in the short term there, but it's this combination, like I'm imagining, you know, all these different components playing SimCity for real, if one will.
Trevor Freeman 44:50
And being able to do it millions and millions and millions of times in a row, to learn every possible iteration and every possible thing that might happen. Very cool. Okay. So last kind of area I want to touch on you did mention this at the beginning is the the overall power implications of of AI, of these massive data centers, obviously, at the utility, that's something we are all too keenly aware of. You know, the stat that that I find really interesting is a normal Google Search compared to, let's call it a chat GPT search. That chat GPT search, or decision making, requires 10 times the amount of energy as that just normal, you know, Google Search looking out from a database. Do you see this trend? I don't know if it's a trend. Do you see this continuing like AI is just going to use more power to do its decision making, or will we start to see more efficiencies there? And the data centers will get better at doing what they do with less energy. What is the what does the future look like in that sector?
Greg Lindsay 45:55
All the above. It's more, is more, is more! Is the trend, as far as I can see, and every decision maker who's involved in it. And again, Jensen Wong brought this up at the big Nvidia Conference. That basically he sees the only constraint on this continuing is availability of energy supplies keep it going and South by Southwest. And in some other conversations I've had with bandwidth companies, telcos, like laying 20 lumen technologies, United States is laying 20,000 new miles of fiber optic cables. They've bought 10% of Corning's total fiber optic output for the next couple of years. And their customers are the hyperscalers. They're, they're and they're rewiring the grid. That's why, I think it's interesting. This has something, of course, for thinking about utilities, is, you know, the point to point Internet of packet switching and like laying down these big fiber routes, which is why all the big data centers United States, the majority of them, are in north of them are in Northern Virginia, is because it goes back to the network hub there. Well, lumen is now wiring this like basically this giant fabric, this patchwork, which can connect data center to data center, and AI to AI and cloud to cloud, and creating this entirely new environment of how they are all directly connected to each other through some of this dedicated fiber. And so you can see how this whole pattern is changing. And you know, the same people are telling me that, like, yeah, the where they're going to build this fiber, which they wouldn't tell me exactly where, because it's very tradable, proprietary information, but, um, but it's following the energy supplies. It's following the energy corridors to the American Southwest, where there's solar and wind in Texas, where you can get natural gas, where you can get all these things. It will follow there. And I of course, assume the same is true in Canada as we build out our own sovereign data center capacity for this. So even, like deep seek, for example, you know, which is, of course, the hyper efficient Chinese model that spooked the markets back in January. Like, what do you mean? We don't need a trillion dollars in capex? Well, everyone's quite confident, including again, Jensen Wong and everybody else that, yeah, the more efficient models will increase this usage. That Jevons paradox will play out once again, and we'll see ever more of it. To me, the question is, is like as how it changes? And of course, you know, you know, this is a bubble. Let's, let's, let's be clear, data centers are a bubble, just like railroads in 1840 were a bubble. And there will be a bust, like not everyone's investments will pencil out that infrastructure will remain maybe it'll get cheaper. We find new uses for it, but it will, it will eventually bust at some point and that's what, to me, is interesting about like deep seeking, more efficient models. Is who's going to make the wrong investments in the wrong places at the wrong time? But you know, we will see as it gathers force and agents, as I mentioned. You know, they don't require, as much, you know, these monstrous training runs at City sized data centers. You know, meta wanted to spend $200 billion on a single complex, the open AI, Microsoft, Stargate, $500 billion Oracle's. Larry Ellison said that $100 billion is table stakes, which is just crazy to think about. And, you know, he's permitting three nukes on site. So there you go. I mean, it'll be fascinating to see if we have a new generation of private, private generation, right, like, which is like harkening all the way back to, you know, the early electrical grid and companies creating their own power plants on site, kind of stuff. Nicholas Carr wrote a good book about that one, about how we could see from the early electrical grid how the cloud played out. They played out very similarly. The AI cloud seems to be playing out a bit differently. So, so, yeah, I imagine that as well, but, but, yeah, well, inference happen at the edge. We need to have more distributed generation, because you're gonna have AI agents that are going to be spending more time at the point of request, whether that's a laptop or your phone or a light post or your autonomous vehicle, and it's going to need more of that generation and charging at the edge. That, to me, is the really interesting question. Like, you know, when these current generation models hit their limits, and just like with Moore's law, like, you know, you have to figure out other efficiencies in designing chips or designing AIS, how will that change the relationship to the grid? And I don't think anyone knows quite for sure yet, which is why they're just racing to lock up as many long term contracts as they possibly can just get it all, core to the market.
Trevor Freeman 49:39
Yeah, it's just another example, something that comes up in a lot of different topics that we cover on this show. Everything, obviously, is always related to the energy transition. But the idea that the energy transition is really it's not just changing fuel sources, like we talked about earlier. It's not just going from internal combustion to a battery. It's rethinking the. Relationship with energy, and it's rethinking how we do things. And, yeah, you bring up, like, more private, massive generation to deal with these things. So really, that whole relationship with energy is on scale to change. Greg, this has been a really interesting conversation. I really appreciate it. Lots to pack into this short bit of time here. We always kind of wrap up our conversations with a series of questions to our guests. So I'm going to fire those at you here. And this first one, I'm sure you've got lots of different examples here, so feel free to give more than one. What is a book that you've read that you think everybody should read?
Greg Lindsay 50:35
The first one that comes to mind is actually William Gibson's Neuromancer, which is which gave the world the notion of cyberspace and so many concepts. But I think about it a lot today. William Gibson, Vancouver based author, about how much in that book is something really think about. There is a digital twin in it, an agent called the Dixie flatline. It's like a former program where they cloned a digital twin of him. I've actually met an engineering company, Thornton Thomas Eddie that built a digital twin of one of their former top experts. So like that became real. Of course, the matrix is becoming real the Turing police. Yeah, there's a whole thing in there where there's cops to make sure that AIS don't get smarter. I've been thinking a lot about, do we need Turing police? The EU will probably create them. And so that's something where you know the proof, again, of like science fiction, its ability in world building to really make you think about these implications and help for contingency planning. A lot of foresight experts I work with think about sci fi, and we use sci fi for exactly that reason. So go read some classic cyberpunk, everybody.
Trevor Freeman 51:32
Awesome. So same question. But what's a movie or a show that you think everybody should take a look at?
Greg Lindsay 51:38
I recently watched the watch the matrix with ideas, which is fun to think about, where the villains are, agents that villains are agents. That's funny how that terms come back around. But the other one was thinking about the New Yorker recently read a piece on global demographics and the fact that, you know, globally, less and less children. And it made several references to Alfonso Quons, Children of Men from 2006 which is, sadly, probably the most prescient film of the 21st Century. Again, a classic to watch, about imagining in a world where we don't where you where you lose faith in the future, what happens, and a world that is not having children as a world that's losing faith in its own future. So that's always haunted me.
Trevor Freeman 52:12
It's funny both of those movies. So I've got kids as they get, you know, a little bit older, a little bit older, we start introducing more and more movies. And I've got this list of movies that are just, you know, impactful for my own adolescent years and growing up. And both matrix and Children of Men are on that list of really good movies that I just need my kids to get a little bit older, and then I'm excited to watch with them. If someone offered you a free round trip flight anywhere in the world, where would you go?
Greg Lindsay 52:40
I would go to Venice, Italy for the Architecture Biennale, which I will be on a plane in May, going to anyway. And the theme this year is intelligence, artificial, natural and collective. So it should be interesting to see the world's brightest architects. Let's see what we got. But yeah, Venice, every time, my favorite city in the world.
Trevor Freeman 52:58
Yeah, it's pretty wonderful. Who is someone that you admire?
Greg Lindsay 53:01
Great question. I was thinking. I was thinking about Emory Levin's earlier with this one too. I think about him, because Emery Levin's in, like, energy discourse. Just to be thematic about this is, I think, all the time about his essay from, I think 1976 in foreign affairs, the hard and soft path, I think he called them, which is the idea that, yeah, that in the 70s, before I was born imagining that we could take the soft path of renewables and infinite energy abundance, or we take the hard path of fossil fuels, and we are still taking the hard path globally. It feels like back in the United States, have definitely taken the hard path. So I think about a lot because he was the first one to really think about energy, particularly in the 70s, such a dark decade for energy, from a framing of abundance, and that we got this and, you know, that we simply had to make choices policy and otherwise. And you know, I guess I'm hopeful that we can still make those choices, but, but, yeah, he was such an early and bright voice in this entire discourse.
Trevor Freeman 53:52
And finally, what's something about the energy sector or its future that you're really excited about?
Greg Lindsay 53:58
Uh, when it comes to energy, I guess I'm really excited. I hadn't thought about it this way, but I guess I'm kind of excited the idea that nuclear is back on the table. I grew up in Illinois, and, like Illinois, I think, is one of the highest state penetrations of nuclear plants. Like nuclear cooling towers were something that I saw growing up. Obviously, you know, nuclear scares people. When you have, you know, industrial accidents that could last a million years. It's kind of scary, but, but, yeah, it's interesting to see that, like all those advances on in theory, thorium reactors and modular reactors are finding purchase with all these tech company hyperscalers that are willing to throw money at the problem. So, so yeah, so I think you know, anything that keeps more coal and natural gas from coming online and fits clean energy clean electrons, let's do it.
Trevor Freeman 54:39
Yeah, I totally agree, Greg. Thanks very much for your time. Appreciate it. This has been a great conversation.
Greg Lindsay 54:44
Thanks for having a lot of fun!
Trevor Freeman 54:46
Awesome. Take care. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from. You, whether it's feedback comments or an idea for a show or a guest, you can always reach us at [email protected].
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Summer rewind: Scott Demark, President and CEO of Zibi Community Utility, joins thinkenergy to discuss how our relationship with energy is changing. With two decades of expertise in clean energy and sustainable development, Scott suggests reimagining traditional energy applications for heating and cooling. He shares how strategic energy distribution can transform urban environments, specifically how district energy systems optimize energy flow between buildings for a greener future. Listen in.
Related links
● Scott Demark on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/scott-demark-83640473/
● Zibi Community Utility: https://zibi.ca/
● Markham District Energy Inc: https://www.markhamdistrictenergy.com/
● One Planet Living: https://www.bioregional.com/one-planet-living
● Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/
● Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en
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Transcript:
Trevor Freeman 00:00
Hi everyone. Well, summer is here, and the think energy team is stepping back a bit to recharge and plan out some content for the next season. We hope all of you get some much needed downtime as well, but we aren't planning on leaving you hanging over the next few months, we will be re releasing some of our favorite episodes from the past year that we think really highlight innovation, sustainability and community. These episodes highlight the changing nature of how we use and manage energy, and the investments needed to expand, modernize and strengthen our grid in response to that. All of this driven by people and our changing needs and relationship to energy as we move forward into a cleaner, more electrified future, the energy transition, as we talk about many times on this show. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll be back with all new content in September. Until then, happy listening.
Trevor Freeman 00:55
Welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at think energy at hydro ottawa.com, Hi everyone. Welcome back one of the overarching aspects of the energy transition that we have talked about several times on this show is the need to change our relationship with energy, to rethink the standard way of doing things when it comes to heating and cooling and transportation, et cetera. This change is being driven by our need to decarbonize and by the ongoing evolution and improvement of technology, more things are becoming available to us as technology improves. On the decarbonization front, we know that electrification, which is switching from fossil fuel combustions to electricity for things like space and water heating, vehicles, et cetera, is one of the most effective strategies. But in order to switch out all the end uses to an electric option, so swapping out furnaces and boilers for heat pumps or electric boilers, switching all gas cars to EVs, et cetera, in order to do that in a way that is affordable and efficient and can be supported by our electricity grid. We need to think about multi strategy approaches, so we can't just continue to have this one way power grid where every home, every business, every warehouse or office tower satisfies all of its energy needs all the time directly from the grid with no adaptability. That isn't the best approach. It's not going to be affordable or efficient. We're not going to be able to do it fast enough. The multi strategy approach takes into account things like distributed energy resources, so solar and storage, et cetera, which we've talked about many times on this show, but it also includes approaches like district energy. So district energy is rethinking how energy flows between adjacent buildings, looking for opportunities to capture excess energy or heat from one source and use that to support another, and that is the focus of today's conversation to help us dive into this topic, I'm really happy to welcome Scott demark to the show. Scott has been a champion of sustainability, clean energy solutions and energy efficiency in the Ottawa real estate and development industry for over 20 years now, he has overseen many high performance development projects, and was one of the driving forces behind the Zibi development in downtown Ottawa, and most applicable for today's conversation the renewable district energy system that provides heating and cooling to the Zibi site. Scott is the president and CEO of the Zibi community utility, as well as a partner at Theia partners. Scott the Mark, welcome to the show. Thanks. Nice to see you. Trevor, so Scott, why don't we start with definitions are always a good place to start. So when we talk about a district energy system, give us a high level overview of what exactly that means.
Scott Demark 04:15
Sure a district energy system is, is simply the connection or interconnection of thermal energy sources, thermal energy sinks. And so really, in practical terms, it means, instead of buildings having their own furnace and cooling system, buildings connect to a hydronic loop. A hydronic loop is just pipes filled with water, and then the heat or the cooling is made somewhere else, and that heat or lack of heat cooling is in a pipe. They push the pipe to the building, and then the pipe extracts the heat, or rejects the heat to that loop. And so it's simply an interconnection of. Uh, as it forces in sinks for federal energy.
Trevor Freeman 05:03
And I guess one of the important concepts here is that buildings often create heat, not just through a furnace or not just through the things that are meant to create heat, but, you know, server racks, computer server racks, generate a lot of heat, and that heat has to go somewhere. So oftentimes we're cooling buildings to remove heat that's being created in those buildings, and then other buildings nearby need to be heated in order to make that space comfortable.
Scott Demark 05:31
Is that fair to say? Yeah, absolutely. Trevor, so, a an office building in the city of Ottawa, big old government office building, you'll see a pretty big plume on the roof in the wintertime. That's not just kind of the flue gas from a boiler, but rather it is actually chillers are running inside to make cooling, and they're just selling that heat to the atmosphere, even on the coldest day of the year. So it's people, you know, people are thermal load. Computers are thermal load, and so is solar gain. You know, January is pretty dark period for us, meaning low angle sun, but by this time in a year, you know, at the end of February, there's a lot of heat in that sun. So a glass building absorbs a lot of sun an office building will lead cooling on the sunny side of that building a lot of the time, even in the dead of
Trevor Freeman 06:18
winter, yeah. So a district system, then, is taking advantage of the fact that heat exists, and we don't necessarily need to either burn fossil fuels, or, even if it's a, you know, a clean system, we don't have to expend energy to create heat, or create as much heat if we could move that heat around from where it's kind of naturally occurring to where we need
Scott Demark 06:41
it. That's right at the very core of a district energy system. You're going to move heat from a place that it's not wanted to a place that it is wanted. And so in our example of the office building, you know, on the February day with the sun shining in and the computers all running, that building's getting rid of heat. But right next door, say, there's a 20 story condo. Well, that 20 story condo needs heating and it also needs domestic hot water. So year round, domestic hot water represents 30, 35% of the heating load of any residential building, so at all times. So a district energy system allows you to take that heat away from the office building and give it to the residential building, instead of making the heat and and dissipating that heat to the atmosphere in the office building. So, yeah, it's, it's really a way to move, you know, from sources to sinks. That's, that's what a district energy system does well.
Trevor Freeman 07:37
So we've kind of touched on this a little bit, but let's dive right into, you know, we talk a lot on the show about the energy transition this, this push to one, move away from fossil fuel combustion to meet our energy needs, and two, shifting from a kind of static, centralized energy system like we have right now, big generators, large transmission lines, et cetera, to more of a two way flow, distributed energy system. What is the role of district energy systems within that transition? How do they help us get closer to that sort of reality that we talk about?
Scott Demark 08:15
I think the biggest way that they help is economies of scale. Okay, so by that, I'll explain that. Imagine there's a lot of technology that's been around a long time that is very scalable to the building level, but most of them are fossil fire. Okay, so the the cheapest way to heat a building in Ottawa is to put a gas fired boiler in. That's the cheapest capital cost, first cost, and it's also the cheapest operating cost, is to put a gas boiler in that industry is well established. There's lots of trades who could do it. There's lots of producers who make the boilers. When you start to try and think about the energy transition and think about what you may do to be different, to be lower carbon, or to be zero carbon, those industries are, are just starting right? Those industries don't exist. They don't have the same depth, and so they don't have the same cost structure, and oftentimes they don't scale well down to the building. And therefore a district energy system aggregates a bunch of load, and so you can provide a thermal energy so at scale that becomes affordable. And that is, you know, a very good example of that would be where, you know, you might want to go and and recover heat from some process. And we'll talk about Zibi as the example. But if you want to go recover heat from some process and bring it in, it doesn't make sense to run a pipeline to a source to heat one building. You can't make financial sense of it, but if you're heating 20 buildings, that pipeline, all of a sudden makes sense to take waste heat from somewhere, to move it somewhere else. The other advantage is that truly, district energy systems are agnostic to their inputs and outputs for heat. So once you. Establish that hydronic loop, that interconnection of water pipes between buildings. What the source and what the source is doesn't matter. So you may have, at one point, built a district energy system, and Markham District Energy System is a great example of this. Markham district energy system was built on the concept of using a co generation facility. So they burned natural gas to make electricity. They sold electricity to the grid, and they captured all the waste heat from that generation, and they fed it into a district energy system. Well here we are, 20 plus years later, and they're going to replace that system, that fossil fired system Augment, not fully replaced, but mostly replace that system with a sewer coupled energy recovery and drive those heat recovery chillers to a sewer system. So they're putting a very green solution in place of a former fossil solution. They don't to rip up the pipes. They don't have to change anything in the buildings. They only have to change that central concept now, again, Markham could never do that at a one building scale. They're only that at the community scale.
Trevor Freeman 11:08
So you mentioned, I want to pick on something you said there. You talked about a sewer heat energy system. They're pulling heat from the sewer. Just help our listeners understand high level kind of, why is there heat there for us to pull like, what's the what's the source there?
Scott Demark 11:26
Yeah, so when we shower, when we flush toilets, all, all of that is introducing heat into a sewer system. So we're collecting heat from everybody's house into the sewer system. The sewer system also sits below the frost line. So call it Earth coupled. You know, it's the earth in Ottawa below the frost line sits around eight, eight and a half c and so at that temperature and the temperature of flushing toilets we we essentially get a sewer temperature in the on the coldest day of the year, but it's around 1010, and a half degrees Celsius. And obviously, for lots of the year, it's much warmer than that. And so I think, you know, a lot of people are kind of familiar with the concept of geo exchange energy, or that. Lot of people call it geothermal. But geo exchange where you might drill down into the earth, and you're taking advantage of that 888, and a half degrees Celsius. So you're exchanging heat. You can reject heat to the earth, or you can absorb heat from the earth. Well, this is the same idea, but you accept or reject from this sewer. But because the sewer is relatively shallow, it is cheaper to access that energy, and because it's warm, and on the coldest day, a couple of degrees make a big difference. Trevor and most of the years so much warmer, you're really in a very good position to extract that heat, and that's all it is. You. You are just accepting or rejecting heat. You don't use the sewage itself. It doesn't come into your building. You have a heat exchanger in between. But that's what you do.
Trevor Freeman 12:58
I agree. And we've talked before on the show about the idea that you know, for an air source, heat pump, for example, you don't need a lot of heat energy to extract energy from the air. It can be cold outside, and there is still heat energy in the air that you can pull and use that to heat a building, heat water, whatever. So same concept, except you've got a much warmer source of energy, I guess. Yeah, exactly. And you know, Trevor, when you look at the efficiency curves of those air source heat pumps, you know, they kind of drop off a cliff at minus 20. Minus 22 In fact, you know, five or six years ago, they that that was dropping off at minus 10. So we've come a long way in air source heat pumps. But imagine on that coldest, coldest day of the year, you're still your source is well above zero, and therefore your efficiency. So the amount of electricity you need to put into the heat pump to get out the heat that you need is much lower, so it's a way more efficient heat exchange. Great. Thanks for that, Scott. I know that's a bit of a tangent here, but always cool to talk about different ways that we're coming up with to heat our buildings. So back to district energy, we've talked through some of the benefits of the system. If I'm a building owner and I'm have the decision to connect to a system that's there, or have my own standalone, you know, traditional boiler, whatever the case may be, or even in a clean energy want to heat pump, whatever. What are the benefits of being on a district system versus having my own standalone system for just my building?
Scott Demark 14:30
Yeah, so when you're wearing the developers hat, you know they're really looking at it financially, if they have other goals around sustainability. Great that will factor into it, but most of them are making decisions around this financially. So it needs to compete with that. That first cost that we talked about the easiest ways, is boilers, gas fired boilers is the cheapest way. And so they're going to look to see it at how. Does this compare to that? And so I think that's the best way to frame it for you. And so the difference here is that you need to install in your building a cooling system and a heating system. In Ottawa, that cooling system is only used for a few months a year, and it's very expensive. It takes up space, whether you're using a chiller and a cooling tower on the roof, or using a dry cooler, it takes up roof space, and it also takes up interior space. If you do have a cooling tower, you have a lot of maintenance for that. You need to turn it on and turn it off in the spring, on and fall, etc, just to make sure all that happens. And you need to carry the life cycle of that boiler plant you need to bring gas infrastructure into your building. You generally need to put that gas boiler plant high in your building, so, so up near the top, and that's for purposes of venting that properly. Now, that's taking real estate, right? And it's taking real estate on the area that's kind of most advantageous, worth the most money. So you might lose a penthouse to have a boiler and chiller room up there. And you also, of course, lose roof space. And today, we really do try to take advantage of those rooftop patios and things. Amenities are pretty important in buildings. And so when I compare that to district energy at the p1 level p2 level in your building, you're going to have a small room, and I really do mean small where the energy transfer takes place, you'll have some heat exchangers. And small you might have a space, you know, 10 or 12 feet by 15 to 18 feet would be big enough for a 30 story tower. So a small room where you do the heat exchange and then Trevor, you don't have anything in your building for plant that you would normally look after. So when you look at the pro forma for owning your building over the lifetime of it, you don't have to maintain boilers. You don't have to have boiler insurance. You don't have to maintain your chillers. You don't have to have lifecycle replacement on any of these products. You don't need anybody operating, those checking in on the pressure vessels. None of that has to happen. All of that happens on the district energy system. So you're really taking something you own and operate and replacing that with a service. So district energy is a service, and what, what we promised to deliver is the heating you need and the cooling you need. 24/7 you second thing you get is more resilience. And I'll explain that a little bit. Is that in a in a normal building, if you if the engineers looked at it and said you need two boilers to keep your building warm, then you're probably going to install three. And that is kind of this n plus one sort of idea, so that if one boilers goes down, you have a spare and you need to maintain those. You need to pay for that. You need to maintain those, etc. But in district energy system, all that redundancy is done in the background. It's done by us, and we have significantly more redundancy than just n plus one in this example. But overall, you know, if you have 10 buildings on your district energy system, each of those would have had n plus one. We don't have n plus 10 in the plant. And so overall, the cost is lower, I would say, if you look at it globally, except the advantages you do have better than N plus one in the plan, so we have higher resiliency at a lower cost.
Trevor Freeman 18:26
So we know there's no such thing as a miracle solution that works in all cases. What are the the best use cases for district energy system? Where does it make a lot of sense.
Scott Demark 18:37
Yeah, in terms some, in some ways the easiest thing, spray work doesn't make sense. So, so it doesn't make sense in sprawling low rise development. So the cost of that hydronic loop, those water pipes, is high. They have to fit in the roadway. It's civil work, etc. And so you do need density. That doesn't mean it has to be high rise density. You know, if you look at Paris, France, six stories, district energy, no problem. There's there's lots and lots of customers for that scale of building. It doesn't have to be all high rise, but it does. District energy does not lend itself well to our sprawling style of development. It's much more suited to a downtown setting. It also kind of thrives where there's mixed use, you know, I think the first example we're talking about is office building shedding heat, residential building needing heat, you know, couple that with an industrial building shedding heat. You know, the these various uses, a variety of uses on a district energy system is the best because its biggest advantage is sharing energy, not making energy. And so a disparity of uses is the best place to use that, I think the other, the other thing to think about, and this is harder in Canada than the rest of the world. Is that, you know, it's harder on a retrofit basis, from a cost perspective, than it is in a in a new community where you can put this in as infrastructure, day one, you're going to make a big difference. And I'll, you know, give a shout out to British Columbia and the Greater Vancouver area. So the district, you know, down in the Lower Mainland, they, they kind of made this observation and understood that if they were going to electrify then District Energy gave economies of scale to electrify that load. And they do a variety of things, but one of the things they do is, is kind of district geo exchange systems, so, so big heat pumps coupled to big fields, and then bring heat a bunch of buildings. But these are Greenfield developments Trevor. So as they expand their suburbs, they do need to build the six stories. They very much have kind of density around parks concepts. So now Park becomes a geo field, density around the geo field, but this infrastructure is going in the same time as the water pipes. It's going in at the same time as the roads, the sidewalks, etc, you can dramatically reduce your cost, your first cost related to that hydro loop, if you're putting it in the same time you're doing the rest of the services.
Trevor Freeman 21:15
So we're not likely to see, you know, residential neighborhoods with single family homes or multi unit homes, whatever, take advantage of this. But that sort of low rise, mid rise, that's going to be more of a good pick for this. And like you said, kind of development is the time to do this. You mentioned other parts of the world. So district energy systems aren't exactly widespread. In Canada, we're starting to see more of them pop up. What about the rest of the world? Are there places in the world where we see a lot more of this, and they've been doing this for a long time?
Scott Demark 21:47
Yeah. So I'd almost say every everywhere in the northern hemisphere, except North America, has done much more of this. And you know, we really look to kind of Scandinavia as the gold standard of this. You look to Sweden, you look to Denmark, you look to Germany. Even there's, there's a lot of great examples of this, and they are typically government owned. So they are often public private partnerships, but they would be various levels of government. So you know, if you, if you went to Copenhagen, you'd see that the municipality is an owner. But then their equivalent of a province or territory is, is actually a big part of it, too. And when they built their infrastructure ages ago, they did not have an easy source of fossil fuels, right? And so they need to think about, how can we do this? How can we share heat? How can we centralize the recovery of heat? How can we make sure we don't waste any and this has just been ingrained in them. So there's massive, massive District Energy loops, interconnecting loops, some owned by municipalities, some of them probably, if you build a factory, part of the concept of your factory, part of the pro forma of your factory is, how much can I sell my waste heat for? And so a factory district might have a sear of industrial partners who own a district energy loop and interfaces with the municipal loop, all sort of sharing energy and dumping it in. And so that's, you know, that's what you would study. That's, that's where we would want to be. And the heart of it is just that, as I said, we've really had, you know, cheap or, you know, really cheap fossil fuels. We've had no price on pollution. And therefore what really hasn't needed to happen here, and we're starting to see the need for that to happen here.
Trevor Freeman 23:46
It's an interesting concept to think of, you know, bringing that factory example in, instead of waste heat or heat as a byproduct of your process being a problem that you need to deal with, something, you have to figure out a way to get rid of it becomes almost an asset. It's a it's a, you know, convenient commodity that's being produced regardless, that you can now look to sell and monetize.
Scott Demark 24:10
Yeha, you go back to the idea of, like, what are the big benefits of district energy? Is that, like, if that loop exists and somebody knows that one of the things the factory produces is heat, well, that's a commodity I produce, and I can, I can sell it if I have a way to sell it right here, you know, we're going to dissipate it to a river. We may dissipate it to the atmosphere. We're going to get rid of it. Like you said, it's, it's, it's waste in their minds, and in Europe, that is absolutely not waste.
Trevor Freeman 24:36
And it coming back to that, you know, question of, where does this make sense? You talked about mixed use, and it's also like the, you know, the temporal mixed use of someone that is producing a lot of heat during the day, when the next door residential building is empty, then when they switch, when the factory closes and the shift is over and everybody comes home from work. So that's when that building needs heat, that's when they want to be then taking that heat two buildings next to each other that both need heat at the same time is not as good a use cases when it's offset like that.
Scott Demark 25:10
Yeah, that's true. And lots of District Energy Systems consider kind of surges and storage. I know our system at CB has, has kind of a small storage system related to the domestic hot water peak load. However, you can also think of the kilometers and kilometers and kilometers of pipes full of water as a thermal battery, right? So, so you actually are able to even out those surges you you let the temperature the district energy system rise when that factory is giving all out all kinds of heat, it's rising even above the temperature you have to deliver it at. And then when that heat comes, you can draw down that temperature and let the whole district energy system normalize to its temperature again. So you do have an innate battery in the in the water volume that sits in the district energy system, very cool.
Trevor Freeman 26:04
So you've mentioned Zibi a couple of times, and I do want to get into that as much as we're talking about other parts of the world. You know having longer term district energy systems. Zibi, community utility is a great example, right here in Ottawa, where you and I are both based of a district energy system. Before we get into that, can you, just for our listeners that are not familiar with Zibi, give us a high level overview of of what that community is, its location, you know, the goals of the community, and then we'll talk about the energy side of things.
Scott Demark 26:34
Sure. So Zibi was formerly Domtar paper mills. It's 34 acres, and it is in downtown Ottawa and downtown Gatineau. About a third of the land masses is islands on the Ontario side, and two thirds of the land mass is on the shore, the north shore of the Ottawa River in Gatineau, both downtown, literally in the shadows of Parliament. It is right downtown. It was industrial for almost 200 years. Those paper mills shut down in the 90s and the early 2000s and my partners and I pursued that to turn it from kind of this industrial wasteland, walled off, fenced off, area that no one could go into. What we're hoping will be kind of the world's most sustainable urban community, and so at build out, it will house, you know, about six, 7000 people. It will be four and a half million square feet, 4.24 point 4, million square feet of development. It is master planned and approved and has built about, I think we're, at 1.1 million square feet. So we're about quarter built out now. 10 buildings are done and connected to the district energy system there. And really, it's, it's an attempt to sort of recover land that was really quite destroyed. You can imagine it was a pretty polluted site. So the giant remediation plan, big infrastructure plan, we modeled this, this overall sustainability concept, over a program called one planet living which has 10 principles of sustainability. So you know, you and I are talking a lot about carbon today, but there's also very important aspects about affordability and social sustainability and lifestyle, and all of those are incorporated into the one planet program, and encourage people to look up one planet living and understand what it is, and look at the commitments that we've made at CV to create a sustainable place. We issue a report every year, kind of our own report card that's reviewed by a third party, that explains where we are on our on our mission to achieve our goal of the world's most sustainable
Trevor Freeman 28:57
community. Yeah. And so I do encourage people to look at one planet living. Also have a look at, you know, the Zibi website, and it's got the Master Plan and the vision of what that community will be. And I've been down there, it's already kind of coming along. It's amazing to see the progress compared to who I think you described it well, like a bit of an industrial wasteland at the heart of one of the most beautiful spots in the city. It was really a shame what it used to be. And it's great to see kind of the vision of what it can become. So that's awesome.
Scott Demark 29:26
Yeah, and Trevor, especially now that the parks are coming along. You know, we worked really closely with the NCC to integrate the shoreline of ZV to the existing, you know, bike path networks and everything. And, you know, two of the three shoreline parks are now completed and open to the public and and they're stunning. And, you know, so many Ottawa people have not been down there because it's not a place you think about, but it's one of the few places in Ottawa and Gatineau where you can touch the water, you know, like it's, it's, it's stunning. Yeah, very, very cool.
Trevor Freeman 29:57
Okay, so the. The the next part of that, of course, is energy. And so there is a district energy system, one of the first kind of, or the most recent big energy. District Energy Systems in Ottawa. Tell us a little bit about how you are moving energy and heating the Zibi site.
Scott Demark 30:17
Yeah. So, first I'll say, you know, we, we, we studied different ways to get to net zero. You know, we had, we had a goal of being a zero carbon community. There are low carbon examples, but a zero carbon community is quite a stretch. And even when you look at the Scandinavian examples, the best examples, they're missing their they're missing their energy goals, largely because some of the inputs that are District Energy System remain fossil, but also because they have trouble getting the performance out of the buildings. And so we looked at this. We also know from our experience that getting to zero carbon at the building scale in Ottawa is very, very difficult. Our climate's tough, super humid, super hot summer, very cold, very dry, winter, long winter. So it's difficult at the building scale. It's funny Trevor, because you'd actually have an easier time getting to zero carbon or a passive house standard in affordable housing than you do at market housing, and that's because affordable housing has a long list of people who want to move in and pay rents. You can get some subsidies for capital, and the people who are willing to pay rent are good with smaller windows, thicker walls, smaller units, and pass trust needs, all those kinds of things. So when down at Zibi, you're really selling views. You're competing with people on the outside of Zibi, you're building almost all glass buildings. And so it's really difficult to find a way to get to zero carbon on the building scale. So that moved us to district energy for all the reasons we've talked about today already. And so when we looked at it for Zibi, you really look at the ingredients you have. One of the great things we have is we're split over the border. It's also a curse. But split over the border is really interesting, because you cannot move electricity over that border, but you can move thermal energy over that border. And so for us, in thinking about electrifying thermal energy, we realized that if we did the work in Quebec, where there is clean and affordable electricity, we could we could turn that into heat, and then we could move heat to Ontario. We could move chilled water to Ontario. So that's kind of ingredient, one that we had going for us there. The second is that there used to be three mills. So originally, don't target three mills. They sold one mill. It changed hands a few times, but It now belongs to Kruger. They make tissue there so absorbent things, Kleenexes and toilet paper, absorbent, anything in that tissue process. That's a going concern. So you can see that on our skyline. You can see, on cold days, big plumes of waste heat coming out of it. And so we really saw that as our source, really identified that as our source. And how could we do that? So going back to the economies of scale, is could we send a pipeline from Kruger, about a kilometer away, to Zibi? And so when we were purchasing the land, we were looking at all the interconnections of how the plants used to be realized. There's some old pipelines, some old easements, servitudes, etc. And so when we bought the land, we actually bought all of those servitudes too, including a pipeline across the bridge. Canadian energy regulator licensed across the bridge into Ontario. And so we mixed all these ingredients up, you know, in a pot and came up with our overall scheme. And so that overall scheme is is relatively simple. We built an energy recovery station at Kruger where, just before their effluent water, like when they're finished in their process, goes back to the river. We have a heat exchanger there. We extract heat. We push that heat in a pipe network over to Zibi. At Zibi, we can upgrade that heat using heat recovery chillers to a useful temperature for us, that's about 40 degrees Celsius, and we push that across the bridge to Ontario, all of our buildings in Ontario then have fan coil units. They use that 40 degree heat to heat buildings. The return side of that comes back to Quebec. And then on the Quebec side, we have a loop. And all of our buildings in the Quebec side then use heat pumps so we extract the last bit of heat. So imagine you you've returned from a fan coil, but you're still slightly warm. That slightly warm water is enough to drive a heat pump inside the buildings. And then finally, that goes back to Kruger again, and Kruger heats it back up with their waste heat and comes back. So that's our that's our heating loop. The cooling side is coupled to the Ottawa River. And so instead of us, we. Rejecting heat to the atmosphere through cooling towers. Our coolers are actually coupled to the river. That's a very tight environmental window that you can operate in. So we worked with the Ministry of the Environment climate change in Quebec to get our permit to do it. We can only be six degrees difference to the river, but our efficiency is on average, like on an annual basis, more than double what it would be to a cooling tower for the same load. So we're river coupled, with respect to cooling for the whole development, and we're coupled to Kruger for heating for the whole development. And what that allows us to do is eliminate fossil fuels. Our input is clean Quebec electricity, and our output is heating and cooling.
Trevor Freeman 35:44
So none of the buildings, you know, just for our listeners, none of the buildings have any sort of fossil fuel combustion heating equipment. You don't have boilers or anything like that. Furnaces in these in these buildings?
Scott Demark 35:54
No boilers, no chillers, no. that's awesome. And
Trevor Freeman 35:58
That's awesome. And just for full transparency, I should have mentioned this up front. So the Zibi community utility is a partnership between Zibi and Hydro Ottawa, who our listeners will know that I work for, and this was really kind of a joint venture to figure out a different approach to energy at the Zibi site.
Scott Demark 36:16
Yeah, that's right. Trevor, I mean the concept, the concept was born a long time ago now, but the concept was born by talking to hydro Ottawa about how we might approach this whole campus differently. You know, one of hydro Ottawa companies makes electricity, of course, Chaudière Falls, and so that was part of the thinking we thought of, you know, micro grids and islanding this and doing a lot of different things. When Ford came in, and we were not all the way there yet, and made changes to Green Energy Act, it made it challenging for us to do the electricity side, but we had already well advanced the thermal side, and hydro, you know, hydro makes a good partner in this sort of thing, when a when a developer tells someone, I'd like you to buy a condo, and by the way, I'm also the district energy provider that might put some alarm bells up, but you put a partnership in there with a trusted, long term utility partner and explain that, you know, it is in the in the public interest. They're not going to jack rates or mess with things, and then obviously just hydro has had such a long operating record operating experience that they really brought sort of an operations and long term utility mindset to our district energy system.
Trevor Freeman 37:35
So looking at a system like the Zippy community utility or other district energy systems. Is this the kind of thing that can scale up over time? And, you know, I bring this up because you hear people talk about, you know, a network of district energy systems across a city or across a big geographic area. Are these things that can be interconnected and linked, or does it make more sense as standalone district energy systems in those conditions that you talked about earlier.
Scott Demark 38:06
Very much the former Trevor like and that's, you know, that's where, you know, places like Copenhagen are today. It's that, you know, there was, there was one district energy system, then there was another, then they got interconnected, then the third got added. And then they use a lot of incineration there in that, in that part of the world, clean incineration for garbage. And so then an incinerator is coming online. And so that incinerators waste heat is going to be fed with a new district energy loop, and some other factory is going to use the primary heat from that, and then the secondary heat is going to come into the dictionary system. Disciplinary system. So these things are absolutely expandable. They're absolutely interconnectable. There are temperature profiles. There's modern, modern thoughts on temperature profiles compared to older systems. Most of the old, old systems were steam, actually, which is not the most efficient thing the world. But that's where they started and so now you can certainly interconnect them. And I think that the example at Zibi is a decent one, because we do have two kinds of systems there. You know, I said we have fan coil units in in the Ontario side, but we have heat pumps on the other side. Well, those two things, they can coexist, right? That's there. Those two systems are operating together. Because the difference, you know, the difference from the customer's perspective in those two markets are different, and the same can be true in different parts of the city or when different sources and sinks are available. So it is not one method of doing district energy systems. What you do is you examine the ingredients you have. I keep saying it, but sources and sinks? How can I look at these sources and sinks in a way that I can interconnect them and make sense? And sometimes that means that a source or a sink might be another district energy system.
Trevor Freeman 39:59
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, systems that maybe work in parallel to each other, in cooperation with each other. Again, it's almost that temporal need where there's load high on at one point in time and low on the other point in time. Sharing is a great opportunity.
Scott Demark 40:14
Yeah, absolutely great.
Trevor Freeman 40:17
Okay, last question for you here, Scott, what is needed, maybe from a regulatory or a policy lens to encourage more implementation of district energy systems. How do we see more of these things happen here in Canada or in
Scott Demark 40:32
North America? The best way to put this, the bureaucracy has been slow to move, is, is what I'll say, and I'll use Zibi as that example. When we, when we pitched the district energy system at Zibi, we had to approach the City of Ottawa, and we had to approach the city of Gatineau, the City of Ottawa basically said to us, No, you can't put those in our streets. Engineering just said, no, no, no, no. And so what we did at Zibi is we actually privatized our streets in order to see our vision through, because, because Ottawa wasn't on board, the city of Gatineau said, Hmm, I'm a little worried. I want you to write protocols of how you will access your pipes, not our pipes. I want to understand where liability ends and starts and all of this kind of stuff. And we worked through that detail slowly, methodically, with the city of Gatineau, and we came to a new policy on how district energy could be in a public street and Zibi streets are public on the Gatineau side today. You know, come forward 10 years here, and the City of Ottawa has a working group on how to incorporate District Energy pipes into streets. We've been able to get the City of Ottawa to come around to the idea that we will reject and accept heat from their sewer. You know, hydro Ottawa, wholly owned company of the City of Ottawa, has an active business in district energy. So Trevor, we've come really far, but it's taken a long time. And so if you ask me, How can we, how can accelerate district energy, I think a lot of it has to do with the bureaucracy at municipalities. And you know, we're we see so much interest from the Federation of Canadian municipalities, who was the debt funder for ZCU. We have multiple visits from people all over Canada, coming to study and look at this as an example. And I'm encouraged by that. But it's also, it's also not rocket science. We need to understand that putting a pipe in a street is kind of a just, just a little engineering problem to solve, whereas putting, you know, burning fossil fuels for these new communities and putting in the atmosphere like the genies out of the bottle, right? Like and unfortunately, I think for a lot of bureaucrats, the challenge at the engineering level is that that pipe in the street is of immediate, complex danger to solving that problem, whereas it's everybody's problem that the carbons in the atmosphere. So if we could accelerate that, if we could focus on the acceleration of standards around District Energy pipes and streets, the rights of a district energy company to exist, and not to rant too much, but give you an example, is that a developer is required to put gas infrastructure into a new community, required, and yet you have to fight to get a district energy pipe in the street. So there needs to be a change of mindset there, and, and we're not there yet, but that's where we need to go.
Trevor Freeman 43:54
Yeah. Well, the interesting, you know, in 10 years, let's talk again and see how far we come. Hopefully not 10 years. Hopefully it's more like five, to see the kind of change that you've seen in the last decade. But I think that the direction is encouraging. The speed needs a little bit of work. But I'm always encouraged to see, yeah, things are changing or going in the right direction, just slowly. Well, Scott, we always end our interviews with a series of questions to our guests, so as long as you're okay with it, I'll jump right into those. So the first question is, what is a book you've read that you think everybody should read?
Scott Demark 44:29
Nexus, which is by Harari. He's the same author that wrote sapiens. Lots of people be familiar with sapiens. And so Nexus is, is really kind of the history of information networks, like, how do we, how do we share and pass information? And kind of a central thesis is that, you know, information is, is neither knowledge nor truth. It is information, and it's talking a lot about in the age of AI. Uh, how are we going to manage to move information into truth or knowledge? And I think it, you know, to be honest, it kind of scared the shit out of me reading it kind of how, how AI is impacting our world and going to impact our world. And what I thought was kind of amazing about it was that he, he really has a pretty strong thesis around the erosion of democracy in this time. And it's, it was, it was really kind of scary because it was published before the 2024 election. And so it's, it's really kind of a, both a fascinating and scary read, and I think really something that everybody should get their head around.
Trevor Freeman 45:47
It's, yeah, there's a few of those books recently that I would clear or classify them as kind of dark and scary, but really important or really enlightening in some way. And it kind of helps you, you know, formalize a thought or a concept in your head and realize, hey, here's what's happening, or gives you that kind of the words to speak about it in this kind of fraught time we're in. So same question, but for a movie or a show, is there anything that you think everybody should watch.
Scott Demark 46:16
That's harder, I think, generally from watching something, it's for my downtime or own entertainment, and pushing my tastes on the rest of the world, maybe not a great idea. I if I, if I'm, if I'm kind of doing that, I tend to watch cooking shows, actually, Trevor so like, that's awesome. I like ugly, delicious. I love Dave Chang. I like, I like mind of a chef creativity partnership. So those kind of things I'd say more so if there was something to like that, I think somebody else should, should watch or listen to, I have, I have a real love for Malcolm Gladwell podcast, revisionist history. And so if I thought, you know, my watching habits are not going to going to expand anybody's brain, but I do think that Malcolm's perspective on life is really a healthy it's really healthy to step sideways and look at things differently. And I would suggest, if you have never listened to that podcast. Go to Episode One, season one, and start there. It's, it's, it's fantastic.
Trevor Freeman 47:26
Yeah, I agree. I'll echo that one. That's one of my favorites. If we were to offer you or not, but if we were to offer you a free round trip flight, anywhere in the world, where would you go?
Scott Demark 47:38
That's hard, so much flight guilt. You know.
Trevor Freeman 47:42
I know it's a hard assume that there's carbon offset to it.
Scott Demark 47:47
It's an electric plane.
Trevor Freeman 47:48
That's right, yeah.s
Scott Demark 47:49
My family, had a trip planned in 2020 to go to France and Italy. My two boys were kind of at the perfect age to do that. It would have been a really ideal trip. And so I've still never been to either those places. And if I had to pick one, probably Italy, I would really like to see Italy. I think it would be a fantastic place to go. So probably, probably Italy.
Trevor Freeman 48:12
My favorite trip that I've ever done with my wife and our six month old at the time was Italy. It was just phenomenal. It was a fantastic trip. Who's someone that you admire?
Scott Demark 48:25
I have a lot of people. Actually have a lot of people in this in this particular space, like, what would I work in that have brought me here to pick to pick one, though I'd probably say Peter Busby. So. Peter Busby is a mentor, a friend, now a business partner, but, but not earlier in my career. Peter Busby is a kind of a one of the four fathers, you know, if you will, of green design in Canada. He's an architect, Governor General's Award winning architect, actually. But I think what I what I really, really appreciate about Peter, and always will, is that he was willing to stand up in his peer group and say, Hey, we're not doing this right. And, you know, he did that. He did that in the early 80s, right? Like we're not talking he did it when it cost his business some clients. He did it when professors would speak out against him, and certainly the Canadian Association of architecture was not going to take any blame for the shitty buildings that have been built, right? And he did it, and I remember being at a conference where Peter was getting a Lifetime Achievement Award from the Canadian architects Association. And so he's standing up, and people are all super proud of him. They're talking about his big life. And he. He, he, he kind of belittled them all and said, You're not doing enough. We're not doing enough like he's still he's still there. He's still taking the blame for where things are, and that things haven't moved fast enough, and that buildings are a massive part of our carbon problem, and probably one of the easier areas to fix. You know, we're talking about electric planes. Well, that's a that's a lot more difficult than it is to recover energy from a factory to heat a community, right? I admire him. I learned things from him all the time. He's got a great book out at the moment, actually, and, yeah, he'd be right up there on my in my top list, awesome.
Trevor Freeman 50:44
What is something about the energy sector or its future that you're particularly excited about?
Scott Demark 50:48
You wished you asked me this before the election. I'm feeling a little dark. Trevor, I think there needs to be a price on pollution in the world needs to be a price on pollution in America, in Canada, and I'm worried about that going away. In light of that, I'm not I'm not super excited about different technologies at the moment. I think there are technologies that are helping us, there are technologies that are pushing us forward, but there's no like silver bullet. So, you know, a really interesting thing that's coming is kind of this idea that a small nuclear reactor, okay, very interesting idea. You could see its context in both localized electricity production, but all the heat also really good for district entry, okay, so that's an interesting tech. It obviously comes with complications around security and disposal, if you like, there's our nuclear industry has been allowed to drink like, it's all complicated. So I don't see one silver bullet in technology that I'm like, That's the answer. But what I do see, I'll go back to what we were talking about before is, you know, we had to turn this giant ship of bureaucracy towards new solutions. Okay, that's, that's what we had to do. And now that it's turned and we've got it towards the right course, I'm encouraged by that. I really am. You know, there are champions. And I'll, I'll talk about our city. You know, there's champions in the City of Ottawa who want to see this happen as younger people have graduated into roles and planning and other engineering roles there. They've grown up and gone to school in an age where they understand how critical this climate crisis is, and they're starting to be in positions of power and being in decision making. You know, a lot of my career, we're trying to educate people that there was a problem. Now, the people sitting in those chairs, it, they understand there's a problem, and what can they do about it? And so I am, I am excited that that the there is a next generation sitting in these seats, making decisions, the bureaucracy, the ship is, is almost on course to making this difference. So, so I do think that's encouraging. We have the technology. We really do. It's not rocket science. We just need to get through, you know, the bureaucracy barriers, and we need to find ways to properly finance it.
Trevor Freeman 53:22
Great. I think that's a good place to wrap it up. Scott, thanks so much for your time. I really appreciate this conversation and shedding a little bit of light, not just on the technical side of district energy systems, but on the broader context, and as you say, the bureaucracy, the what is needed to make these things happen and to keep going in that right direction. So thanks a lot for your time. I really appreciate it.
Scott Demark 53:43
Thank you, Trevor, good to see you.
Trevor Freeman 53:45
All right. Take care.
Trevor Freeman 53:47
Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe. Wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback, comments or an idea for a show or a guest, you can always reach us at [email protected].
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Summer rewind: What does Canada do with excess energy? How is it stored today and how will it be stored as the energy industry evolves? Justin Rangooni, CEO of Energy Storage Canada, shares how energy storage supports a sustainable future for Canadians—from enhanced flexibility to affordability, large-scale grids to individual consumer needs. Listen to episode 152 of thinkenergy to learn about ongoing projects and challenges facing the energy storage sector in Canada.
Related links
● Justin Rangooni on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/justin-rangooni-5063b542/
● Energy Storage Canada: https://www.energystoragecanada.org/
● TC Energy Pump Storage Project: https://www.tcenergy.com/operations/power/pumped-storage-project/
● From Small to Mighty report: https://energyontario.ca/Files/OEA_ESC_From_Small_to_Mighty_Dec_2024.pdf
● Ontario Energy Board: https://www.oeb.ca/
● Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/
● Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en
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https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405
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https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl
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http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/
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Transcript:
Trevor Freeman 00:00
Hi everyone. Well, summer is here, and the think energy team is stepping back a bit to recharge and plan out some content for the next season. We hope all of you get some much needed downtime as well, but we aren't planning on leaving you hanging over the next few months, we will be re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the past year that we think really highlight innovation, sustainability and community. These episodes highlight the changing nature of how we use and manage energy, and the investments needed to expand, modernize and strengthen our grid in response to that. All of this driven by people and our changing needs and relationship to energy as we move forward into a cleaner, more electrified future, the energy transition, as we talk about many times on this show. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll be back with all new content in September. Until then, happy listening.
Trevor Freeman 00:55
Welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at think energy at hydroottawa.com, Hi everyone. Welcome back. We tend to take for granted that when we flick that light switch on, or we plug in our coffee maker or EV, electricity is there to do what we want it to do. It will light up the room or make our coffee or charge our car or whatever the case may be. But let's take a minute to reflect on the engineering marvel that makes that a reality. The traditional power grid is set up as a one way on demand system, meaning, when you need those electrons for your morning cup of coffee somewhere else, that same amount of electricity needs to be generated pretty much simultaneously. Multiply that one use case by hundreds of millions or likely even billions of devices needing power at any given time, and you can appreciate the challenge. Traditionally, power grids don't store electricity. They need to make sure they're generating enough power for the load that's required at any given time. And as many generation sources can't be instantaneously turned on or off. This requires forecasting, also known as informed guessing, of what the load might be at any given time to make sure that the generation resources needed are up and running. Some forms of generation require a few minutes to turn on and off. Some require a few days or even weeks. In the case of nuclear generation, for example, and others like solar or wind are dependent on weather conditions. So all of this means that often there is some excess generation that needs to go somewhere, and that somewhere is traditionally a neighboring jurisdiction, who will buy that excess power at a pretty low rate. So all that I've described above, while it is an engineering marvel, is a rather inflexible system. The good news is that this is the power grid of yesterday. Well, today, a little bit as well. The grid of tomorrow is shaping up to be much more flexible in terms of when and where we generate and use electricity, and a major tool that will help us get to that state is energy storage. Energy Storage means things that let us generate electricity at a certain point in time, such as when the sun is shining or the wind is blowing, or when not a lot of people are using grid electricity, like the middle of the night, but save it to be used later, when the conditions are opposite to those I just mentioned. This opens up loads of possibilities and can help with grid flexibility, for sure, but also other things like customer affordability. So imagine being able to pull cheaper off peak electricity from the grid and use it later when rates are higher during peak times, instead of buying that more expensive power. It supports things like resiliency, so using stored electricity during an outage, for example, and it also lets utilities and system operators pull on different resources on the grid at different times, instead of only having generation to pull from. Energy storage can take many forms, which we'll get into in today's conversation, but certainly, batteries are the ones that we are most familiar with. We're seeing more and more applications for this technology, from home battery systems to large scale Grid applications. In fact, here in Ontario, the Independent System Operator or IESO is working through their long term or LT one RFP, which is looking to procure capacity, including battery storage for grid needs. But some of these projects are facing hurdles, such as opposition from community. Members opposed to project developments in their area over concerns about what those projects mean with the need for more energy storage of all sizes on our grid. I thought this would be a good time to dig into this growing sector and understand it a little bit better. And the perfect person to help us do that is actually someone who's been on the show twice before, Justin Rangoon, he the president and CEO of energy storage Canada. So even though Justin's been on before, I think given what's happening in the news and the evolving sector that he represents, it's great to have him back to talk through some of this stuff together. So energy storage Canada, or ESC is the National Trade Association that's dedicated to advancing Canada's energy storage sector. It's a non profit organization that was established in 2016 and has a diverse membership of more than 85 members, from technology providers to project developers, power generators, utilities like Hydro Ottawa, engineering firms, etc, etc. Justin in particular, is the President and CEO of energy storage Canada, and is a lawyer with more than a decade of experience in Canada's energy sector, specializing in policy and government relations. He's been the executive director since 2019 and has facilitated significant growth within ESC membership, staff, conference offerings, et cetera, to kind of match the pace of accelerated growth in the storage sector. So it's really great to have Justin here today to talk through this with us. Justin Rangooni, welcome to the show. Great to be here again. Thanks for having me. Yeah, actually, that's a great correction or clarification. Welcome back to the show. So I think you're actually the first three Pete guests that we've had on the think energy podcast you've been on twice before, both times with my predecessor, Dan. So great for us to chat for the first time, but welcome back to Think energy for the third time.
Justin Rangooni 06:54
Oh, thank you. It's always good to have the Triple Crown, right? I'm happy to wear it
Trevor Freeman 06:59
and the first one too. So why don't we start right off the bat, Justin, if you don't mind, remind our listeners about the important role that energy storage can and will play for both customer needs as well as for grid management.
Justin Rangooni 07:16
Okay, so the best way to think of it is, there's an analogy that one of our members had always said, and we continue to use it when we talk about energy storage. And the great things that can do is that it's like bacon. It makes everything better. I don't eat bacon, but I take I understand the concept, and what that means is, if you look at from a grid management point of view, is that we have all in Ontario, we're lucky to have a pretty clean grid, if it's nuclear power, or it's water power, or it's intermittent generation like wind and solar and even some gas too, which is which is near zero carbon or don't have coal. So it's a clean grid, and energy storage can make that better in the sense that it will optimize those generation assets so we're not wasting it. So those days before we would hear about when energy is needed but the wind's not blowing, or the sun's not shining, or we don't need the energy and we have to spill water, or, you know, we may have to power down a ramp, down a bit of the nuclear ramp or the natural gas units. Now energy storage can make sure we don't waste that now we can collect that power when it's done, when it's when it's being done, when it's being made, and we're holding it for when it's needed. And from a grid management that is the real key. That is the game changer that energy storage provides. And if we break it down, to the customer themselves. You know, you're trying to think of now, not just helping keep the lights on. We're also talking about your rates now in terms of now we can kind of defer those investments in terms of more generation, because now you have energy storage that's getting more out of it. We're also talking from the distribution side about pools and wires. Maybe you don't you can defer those investments a little longer with more distributed, connected energy storage. So now the customer is starting to see the benefits of energy storage in their rates and in their electricity bill. And look, I just got an electric car. They're really excited about it, and I can see the possibilities of that car being a battery for my home, for my use, which, again, now maybe that's still a bit down the road with B to G and using it to power a residential energy storage unit in my house, but the possibilities are really endless. So this is really the exciting thing about energy storage, from a Grid Manager down to the customer,
Trevor Freeman 09:35
yeah, and I think it's important to think about the different contexts that energy storage can play, or the different roles that it can play for our individual customers, a homeowner, there's a role for storage there, and you get some of those benefits that you just mentioned, but then we can scale that all the way up to the grid level. And you know, us in the utility space also have some things that we can do with. Energy Storage, and like you said, we can manage things a little bit better. We don't have to waste that energy. We can generate it when it's cheap and hold on to it and use it when it's maybe a bit more difficult in those peak periods. So lots of different uses. Thanks for laying that out for us. Now we hear a lot about, you know, decentralization and community-based energy systems, kind of more control at the community level when it comes to energy what's the role of energy storage in systems like that?
Justin Rangooni 10:32
Well, I think that's energy storage can really make that a reality. Now, again, I think I'll go back to my example having an electric car. It seems like more getting closer to being more a prosumer than just a consumer now. So I can see the possibilities of using electric vehicle you could and then you start to pair that with other kind of your thermostat or your other smart technologies in your home. So now, when we're talking about decentralizing community based energy systems, the consumer, the utility, the system operator, you're all able to get in the space of playing with the technologies. And that's really again, where it gets kind of exciting that everyone's playing a role. There's different possibilities to use, and we think energy storage is the key to doing that, because it can store that energy when it's not needed, and you can use it when it's needed. And if the technology evolution continues, eventually, the homeowner, the business owner, can start to use that. I can use buy power from the cars. I can use my power that I'm generating myself or from the distribution grid. And now I can start to play with it and use it store overnight when rates are low or when there's excess supply. I could store that energy and use it when it's needed during the day. So really exciting times, and that's why we think energy storage is key to any decentralized or community based energy systems.
Trevor Freeman 11:51
Yeah, it really unlocks that ability to push control into the hands of the end user, whether that's the homeowner or the business owner. The community, kind of pushes it downstream into their hands. So as I mentioned up top, you've been on the show before. I think the last time was 2021 which, I mean, doesn't seem like that long ago, in some sense, and also seems like decades ago. What has changed in the world of energy storage since the last time you were on the show? Oh,
Justin Rangooni 12:20
oh, how much has changed? Geez, like that does seem like a very long time ago. I think the Toronto Raptors were only two years coming out of an NBA championship, and we thought maybe we'll get some more, get some more long playoff runs. And that's right, still living the high on that. That's right, or still living the high back then? Well, since 2021 like, a massive amount has changed in the sector. You know, we're seeing incredible growth across Canada. I think when we first chatted back then, you know, we were talking about the energy storage potential, specifically in Ontario. And since that time, we've seen one of the largest procurements for energy storage technologies, and really globally, take place in Ontario, with over 3000 megawatts of contract contracts awarded in that time, and we're looking at more in subsequent rounds of procurements for the rest of the decade, including one of the first of the kind procurements focused on long lead time or long duration energy storage technologies, which does get very interesting, because now you're looking just beyond batteries, or just beyond lithium batteries. Now you're looking at things that can store power, six, 812, hours, days, weeks, even seasons. If you really think about it, it's really exciting. We've seen the growth in Ontario. And it's not just there. You look across the country, Nova Scotia, since that time, announced 350 megawatt battery energy storage projects. Alberta already has over 100 megawatts providing value and what their market design consultation is going on now we expect to see a lot more. BC is a 600 megawatt target. Saskatchewan installed a 50 megawatt desk system. And you're looking at projects big and small, transmission, connected, dx connected, being announced, implemented, you know, across the country, and just more as we speak.
Trevor Freeman 13:59
Yeah. So those long lead was just maybe for my own curiosity. Everybody's probably pretty familiar with battery technology, and if you're not, it's really the same concept as the batteries you put in, I don't know, your remote control, or in your phone or your car. Now, scaled up, what are some of those technologies as that energy storage technology that provides that long duration storage time that you were just mentioning. So
Justin Rangooni 14:22
you're looking at possibly different battery chemistries, like zinc, vanadium, for instance, like, again, different elements critical minerals that are found that can actually do their technological process, and what it can hold, can hold that energy for even longer. So you're looking at different battery chemistries. You're also looking for different methods of energy storage, like compressed air. Wow, which, again, there's a Canadian company which is one of our members of hydro store, and is doing great work getting ready for that in other parts of the world, where it's basically taking air, compressing it into underground caverns, saving that energy potential, and then releasing it to. Create electricity when it's needed, then you have thermal storage. And again, some Canadian companies are really looking in and on that one in terms of using, you know, heating molten salts or molten rocks for thermal storage, and eating that, that energy potential, and using and keeping it there and then using it for when it's needed. And I go think back to the batteries. There's, there's easing, which is, which is an Ontario company based out of Etobicoke that's looking at zinc based batteries for that long duration, and not to mention even pump storage, which has been around for decades. And we heard a recent announcement of moving the ball forward on TC energy's pump storage project in medieval again, that's a long duration energy storage project, again, doing more, doing it more than the four hour lithium batteries, but you get all those options available for a system operator then, then it gets really interesting that they can see what they need and what time and what storage technology to to rely on.
Trevor Freeman 15:55
Yeah. So for our listeners, I mean, you might be familiar with hydro generation, you take water that's flowing downhill, whether it's a waterfall or just a river, and use that momentum to turn a turbine. Pumped Storage would be taking that that water, actually pumping it uphill and holding it there and then when you want to generate electricity, letting it flow down through the turbine, and just repeating that process over and over again. So thanks. Thanks for sharing that with us. I think it's important to recognize that like any technology, things kind of move forward. They iterate, they improve, and as we see more adoption that technology, it speeds up the process of that iteration, and we see jumps forward in the technology and its efficiency. So we've talked about the importance for grid management, for cost, sort of reliability, but there are folks out there whose main driver is reducing their carbon footprint. So understanding that energy use often has a carbon aspect to it, how can energy storage help, whether that's a business or an industry, help them reduce their carbon
Justin Rangooni 17:01
footprint? That's a great question. And what energy storage can do is, traditionally, before energy storage technologies started to mature and be more economically viable, like we're seeing right now, a lot of companies, a lot of new communities and had a lot of access to electricity, reliable electricity would use diesel generation as backup. So that's dirtier, that's like, it's not good for the environment. But now energy storage can provide that different option. Now you can install an energy storage system, smaller battery, for instance, to provide that backup system, if that's what the reason you need it. But again, because now you have that battery, well, it's not just there for backup. Now you can use it for helping smooth those peaks. A lot of industrial customers, especially Ontario too, are using behind what's called behind the meter energy storage to really help mitigate or manage that electricity use during peak times where they don't necessarily have to rely on the grid. They can use that battery that's installed. Again, low carbon footprint, if at all, you're just using the clean electricity that's on the grid to power that battery, and now you're using that battery and reducing the pressure that's on the grid during those peak periods. So not only decarbonization, you're applying reliability, and it's really good for affordability reasons, and so that's why you're seeing a lot of interest from the CNI type customers.
Trevor Freeman 18:19
Awesome. Are you seeing an increased pace in the adoption of energy storage? Are we kind of hitting that technology adoption curve where it's starting to pick up, or has it been relatively stable the last couple of
Justin Rangooni 18:32
years? Well, I would say we're still in the growth mode. And I always like to say that the sector is growing as us the association energy storage Canada's growing. Our members keep getting bigger. Our conference keeps getting bigger. The amount of submissions and work and like podcasts like this and getting questions about it continue to grow. And it goes with the sector that it's still growing. There are provinces like Ontario that are ahead of the game right now, but there's others that are coming now. Provinces like Saskatchewan is starting to look more at energy storage. So in a few years, they'll might be where Ontario is. So everyone's coming at different angles, and it's because of the technology advancements for energy storage. It's also the economics have started to go down, but it's also that they are seeing, we really need that reliable backup power, or reliable electricity to help keep the lights on while keeping rates low, and they're seeing energy storage, that's the option that they really need to look at. So we are way beyond now science experiments and pilot projects, but we're still not there where it's starting to plateau. I'm not sure when that happens. I hope maybe it never happens. Maybe it just keeps going. The technology will advance, but just keep happening. So it's a really fun kind of we're still riding the wave, I would say,
Trevor Freeman 19:41
Yeah, awesome. So you gave a bit of an outlook on the Canadian landscape. Are there other jurisdictions around the world that are real leaders when it comes to energy storage, you know, policy or adoption, or where they are, compared to Canada? You know
Justin Rangooni 19:55
what? We're starting to see that almost like everywhere. So obviously us, they lead. Their leaders, a lot of the ways, similar to us, their states have different priorities, different reasons for using it, just like we have our provinces. So states like California are have a lot of energy storage to make use of the intermittent solar generation that they have. Texas, also, maybe with solar, too, is using a lot of energy storage. But interesting, like the red state, the Republican state of Texas, is embracing innovative technologies like energy storage. Because, if you recall, during their winter storm they had they ran like their power was really short. So what did they look at going forward, saying, we need to make sure that we have a reliable system. And entered and they started to really embrace energy storage. So if it's decarbonization goals, if it's reliability goals, if it's a priority, goals are really driving a lot of the policy directions in the US, in Europe, in China, in Asia, China, Japan, Korea, they're all looking to install more energy storage. Again, it's not, it's not just like politically neutral. It's almost like country neutral, that you can put this anywhere. It's scalable, it's portable. And that's the beauty of energy storage.
Trevor Freeman 21:08
Yeah. I mean, it's a good reminder that when you get right down to it, when you cut through all the noise, good ideas, you know, kind of transcend politics and transcend political parties or rhetoric. If it's a good idea, it's a good idea and it's and it's going to happen. Okay? So I want to dive into a report that you kind of partnered with the Ontario Energy Association recently on the reports called from small to mighty unlocking ders to meet Ontario's electricity needs. So in this report, you outline a policy and regulatory framework that is aimed at enabling widespread adoption of DERs, which includes energy storage. Can you talk us through the main principles of that framework?
Justin Rangooni 21:52
Sure, and this is a great collaboration between the Ontario Energy Association trying to look at everyone's been talking about distributed energy storage or energy resources as kind of the next phase, the next piece of the energy puzzle in Ontario, and really for Canada. But we're looking Ontario here to meet our capacity needs that are being forecasted by the IEA. So, so what we thought working with the OEA was, can we come out with a paper that kind of looks at a roadmap to how do we really start to implement DERs, and that includes the utilities in Ontario, that includes the private entities and companies who want to install and own and help own and operate these DERs. So what this paper really looks at is, you know, it supports the development of an overarching policy and regulatory framework to enable DERs to play a much larger role in Ontario's electricity resource needs to support economic growth. So we're recommending that for Ontario government to issue policy directions to the Ontario Energy bowl or to the ISO to really enable LDCs like Hydro Ottawa led der procurements, as well as make grid modernization investments necessary to integrate and manage DERs, because we believe enabling an LDC led der procurement stream builds on LDCs existing responsibility and aligns with the development of future local markets for distribution services and really to play In that upcoming ISO wholesale market enhancements to better integrate DERs. So it's kind of bringing DERs into that game. So it's not just relying on centralized generation, which speaks really well to what energy storage kind of does. It's you can play in a wholesale market. It's a tech transmission connector. It could also be distribution connected. So that's why we consider it as a big piece of this der puzzle, distributed energy storage.
Trevor Freeman 23:43
Yeah. So I mean, you've outlined kind of that engagement piece and encouraging the regulatory bodies, our levels of government, to enable more DERs to happen. What does that engagement look like to support the industry's growth? How are you engaging with policymakers?
Justin Rangooni 24:00
Well, this is one of the great things of having a dedicated trade association, like energy stores. You know, we our team is growing. We're about six now. Across the country. We have a great we have fantastic 100, over 100 members, including Hydro Ottawa, who help us develop these policy submissions. And we have various working groups dedicated either Ontario wholesale or distributed energy storage or BC, Alberta, federal, Atlantic, Canada as well, what have you. And this is how we engage policy makers. We are able to tap into the expertise of our members and get their feedback and then bring that common consensus position focus exclusively on energy storage, nothing else. We do this 24 hours, seven days a week, 365, days a year, and we bring this to decision makers, if it's the regulator, the system operator and governments. So when we're talking about DERs, or we're talking about anything else, we're bringing that pure energy storage perspective that no one else can bring, and so they're seeing, i. Us is that trusted voice for the sector, and that's how we're really seeing a lot of momentum, and we are moving the ball down the
Trevor Freeman 25:06
field Great. What is the role that you guys play when it comes to fostering innovation and investment in new storage solutions? It's kind of that, you know, iterative process where technology improves over time. How are you and how is it energy storage Canada sort of helping speed that along. I
Justin Rangooni 25:25
think one of the best examples was with Ontario's procurement. They were really interested in long lead time, or long duration energy storage. So to help ISO get comfortable with the concept, because of our membership continues to grow, we have members who are dedicated to long energy storage. So we were able to facilitate introductions. We were able to group meetings, bring them to talk about their technologies to the ISO. And we'll do this again. We'll replicate this across the country as well. And it gets the ISO comfortable where they can ask all the questions that they could ever have about that into that company's LDS technology. And it gets them comfortable to start to frame the procurement so they'll know what technologies are available now, what technology may be available in, say, five years time, but then they can start applying so this is how we foster innovation and new storage solutions. We bring our members, facilitate those meetings with decision makers, and that really, can really start to get things moving
Trevor Freeman 26:18
when it comes to those new technology. So you mentioned, you know, having line of sight into what's coming five years down the road. I know earlier in the conversation, we were talking about, you know, different battery chemistries, different technologies. Is there anything coming up that isn't viable today or doesn't work today, or we may not be aware of today that you see as the next thing, the next technology that looks promising for deployment in the coming five or 10 years.
Justin Rangooni 26:45
You know what I would think a better way to look at it is, I think there's a knowledgeable a lot of the existing technologies, even if you look at lithium batteries, which is the most prevalent right now, where lithium batteries will be in five years, will probably look a lot different than it is now in terms of its efficiency, of how long, how many hours, it could be considered a long duration asset in five years time. And you can think of any of the other newer technologies that are coming now saying, oh, you know, I'm ready now. Or I need a long lead time. It might take me a year to have built in five years time that that, construction timeline could be shorter. So in this nascent sector, which is really brewing with so many great ideas and innovation, it's going to change year to year. Who knows by the end of the decade, how many different types of energy storage technologies are viable right now? That's what I'm really excited about. Where a system operator somewhere in this country will say, I need some capacity now. And now they could almost do it as the menu. I could pick the location I need it in, I need I need a certain duration, I need a certain size. And they can look at the menu of energy storage technologies that are really available now and start to kind of pick them off and say, Well, maybe, maybe this combination will really
Trevor Freeman 27:57
work. Yeah, having options really addresses multiple needs and different folks that have different drivers can sort of pick and choose what makes the most sense for them. Like any new technology or newer technology, it often starts with, you know, high capital costs. Those with the deep pockets are able to really engage in it first, but then over time, that comes down. So I'm curious, kind of, on the economics of it. Are there any trends that you're seeing when it comes to investment in energy storage projects in Canada that you're seeing over time? Yeah, I
Justin Rangooni 28:31
think there's a couple of buckets you can look at. You can look at, like strategic government support for programs. So when we first started, I think when we first talked, probably in 2021 where I just, kind of, I started in 2019 in this role, and we were talking to the federal government, saying, you grab all these great programs for other generation assets, why not create one for energy storage that can start to really help the project economics? So they created the smart renewable electricity Pathways Program. Then came the investment tax credits. So those are great examples of government support programs to really help this sector as it's growing. Will those be needed in five years plus time? Maybe not, maybe not. Maybe then it try, maybe it pivots to the newer energy storage technologies to help so but strategic government support is a is a great driver of it. You saw that in the US with their investment Reduction Act program, the RR, the IRA, which started to launch a lot of ITCs for different energy technologies, like energy store. And you saw the market boom. It really started making the economics better. And it just made helped on rates, where people were able to start looking at different innovative technologies. So strategic government support is key private sector engagement as well. And you're looking at that on the the AI start of things like the big data centers. They want to power their own clean supply of generation, and they're going to need energy storage to provide that 24/7 power. So they're willing to dole out money for. Are ESG goals as well. There's companies, hopefully still out there who still want to pursue ESG goals. So they're going to be looking at cleaner energy solutions and help and energy storage obviously plays a role in there. There's international collaborations with different governments, where Canada's part of talking about, you know, what can we do to share R and D to really advance different sorts of technologies. So really, it's government, it's the public, it's public together, and it's private altogether, doing this investment trends.
Trevor Freeman 30:30
Yeah, I mean, great answer, and you kind of answered my next question, or my follow up question, which is, what are some of the levers that we can lean on to encourage investment and to sort of speed up that investment. And I think you've hit the nail on the head there of the role that sort of government can play. We've talked on the show before about the role that government can play in sort of jump starting technology and using investments and tax credits to help get nascent technology off the ground until it's market ready. And we're seeing that in the in the storage space, the role of, you know, private entities with strong drivers, like data centers, for example, to come in and say, look, we've got a need here, and we see that energy storage can fulfill part of that need, and we're willing to pay in order to make that happen. And that also helps move the industry along and move the technology forward. So those are great examples. Thanks for highlighting that. Let's dive in a little bit into the technology. Here. One question that often comes up, maybe by by those more resistant to the technology, is, well, what about end of life? What about the environmental impacts when it comes to, you know, battery storage, in particular, the rare earth metals that go into that the mining required. Talk to us a little bit about some of the sustainability considerations regarding batteries, end of life. Can they be recycled? What? What happens? How are we mitigating that, that environmental impact?
Justin Rangooni 32:01
Yeah, I think these are excellent questions to ask, if you look on the recycling end of life, because we're at kind of the starting point of enabling energy storage. We're talking about batteries, specifically with these recent Ontario contracts. So these are 20 years contracts, so these batteries are going to last a while. You know? They might get replaced every 10 years. But what you're seeing is a lot of interesting Canadian companies. So there's a store, there's there BC, for example, is looking to be one of the leaders in not just EV, not just battery energy storage recycling, but electric vehicles and other recycling as well. So companies like tax and moment energy are taking you this opportunity while this window is open right now, see, how is it best to recycle these batteries? So either you're going to break them down to recycle them as much as you can in the most environmentally sensitive way, or can you now repurpose them? So a lot are looking at electric vehicle batteries that may come to life much sooner than battery energy storage system, let's say six to eight years, then repurposing those to say, well, we can get more life out of these. Could be battery, energy, standalone systems for another eight to 10 years. So there are recycling options, there's refurbishing options, and then there's just breaking down the components. And here is the opportunity for Canada to be a leader. You have this window. So there's interest, there's, there's, there's startup companies, and there's a lot of interest. So if Canada could do this, right, you know, we could be a leader in the recycling of EVs and battery energy storage.
Trevor Freeman 33:29
Yeah, it's like, it's the old. I don't know if it's a cliche or an adage, but somebody's problem is another person's opportunity, right? The challenge of a new technology, having a battery that gets to end of life at some point creates opportunity, whether that's in the recycling of it or and I'm glad you brought that up. It's one of my favorite examples or potential use cases of you know, an EV battery gets to the point where it can no longer provide the required power for moving a car down the highway at highway speeds, but it still can provide the kind of power that a house might need for backup power, for peak shaving or for reliability, whatever the case may be. So just because it's end of life in one use case doesn't necessarily mean it's end of life in another use case. I think that's a great example. I really like hearing that one. So one other thing that comes up when we talk about these maybe larger scale battery energy storage installations is safety, public safety. And there's a bit of a question mark, I think, in the public mind of, well, are these safe? Are we going to be at risk if we're near to one of these facilities? I think people are generally familiar with or even maybe even if they aren't familiar with it, they feel like they are when it comes to other types of generation, for example. But battery is a bit of an unknown. Are these battery installations? Are they safe? What are some of the safety considerations, and how is the industry addressing those?
Justin Rangooni 34:58
No and. And the short answer is, these are safe. As you mentioned at the outset, this technology is the same lithium batteries that are in your phone that you might put near your head when you're falling asleep, that you're plugging in overnight you're in your kitchen or your living room, what have you now, because they are bigger scale and the questions there they have to follow the correct procedures and installation. So what we rely on, obviously, our members adhere to the latest safety standards, the latest fire safety measures that have to take in the low risk that this might happen. What we also do, and we'll make a plug for these two members of ours who have been really helpful to us. It's Hillier Safety Group. Hillier and energy safety response group. So these are two members of ours who have especially with esrg. They are there. They are firefighters and ex firefighters who test batteries, energy storage system to and then take learnings and best practices from it. So we've encouraged and esrg goes out with our members. They go with the ISO. They do webinars that we host with them, speaking about how as a firefighter, they say, we test these things if they're installed correctly, if you're using the correct like a reputable company, and you ask about the mitigation measures these things are safe and in the low risk that these things might catch on fire by letting it burn out. It might not look so good sometimes, but that is actually the safest way. And there have been instances which I think were referenced and people talk about like in New York, and there was one in Los Angeles and and it, and they've done studies after this to say, Okay, what was the impact after nothing in the air, nothing in the soil, nothing in the water, it just burned itself out. Now, as the technology in the sector advances, you're going to see a lower risk of that. The numbers in the US actually say be as the number of battery in energy storage systems have increased, the incidence of these risks have gone down dramatically. And the reason is that technology is advancing. The safety measures are advancing, the standards are are advancing. So these things are becoming safer and safer. But if you're a community member and you have questions, ask the developer these questions. Say to them, what battery are you using? Is this a reputable company? How many What measures do you have in place in case something does happen? And these are all great questions to ask, and those who are our members of energy storage Canada, you know they will, they will be able to answer those and provide that comfort.
Trevor Freeman 37:27
Absolutely great, good answer. Okay, final question here, What is the long term vision for energy storage Canada? You know, we're seeing movement in the sector. We're seeing more adoption. Where do you kind of see your organization, your association, going in the coming years. We expect
Justin Rangooni 37:46
it to continue to grow as the sector grows. And really what we want to see is that in every jurisdiction, with every utility, and soon to get down to the residential that they're seeing energy storage technologies as a viable option. So if you're a system operator, or you're a government and you're looking at the supply mix and saying, Well, how are we going to make sure we can keep the lights on while keeping rates low, energy storage is like, if not the first option, it is up there. And that's really the vision. Now this is seen as a mainstream resource, that it is no question that you wouldn't look at energy storage as part of your solution, on the distribution level or at the transmission level. So the very exciting vision, and again, we talked about the residential and becoming a prosumer, and then that really is the opportunities start to become even more endless.
Trevor Freeman 38:34
Yeah, it's one of the things. I mean, our listeners are probably roll their eyes because they hear me say this all the time. But one of the things I like about being in this sector, this kind of energy space, is exactly that you can see the vision for how these various technologies, these strategies, this sort of new way of dealing with energy, seem really exciting and really cool, but they're also not that far down the road, like we're in the midst of this change when it comes to all this technology, I think energy storage is a perfect example of that, where just a couple years ago, maybe four or five years ago, it was hard to even imagine where we are today and where we'll be in the very near future, because things are changing so fast. So I share your excitement for that vision. Thanks for sharing that with us, and no doubt, energy storage Canada will have a big role to play in that today and in the years to come. Justin, thanks very much for this conversation. We do always end our interviews with a series of questions, so I'm going to fire those at you now, and we'll see. We'll see what you come up with. So first question is always, what's a book that you've read that you think everybody should read? Okay,
Justin Rangooni 39:45
that's a great question. This is my favorite part of these podcast interviews, really. Um, we saw a little political jump junkie who likes Pulitzer Prize winning books, so I kind of focus on political history. So if you want. Ever want to read any of those that are the best? I would say the Teddy Roosevelt trilogy by Edwin Morris is a must read. They're fantastic. So that's when I read those. I'm like, Okay, this was, are you gonna top this? So you're always chasing that next book to read like that. That's
Trevor Freeman 40:16
awesome. I just as a complete aside, my kids school does this big used book sale every year, and it was just this past weekend, and you never know what you're going to find when you're like, wandering through the aisles and there's books there that you never heard of, and you pick something up. So I have this new stack of books at home that I can dive through, and I'm the same with you. I like to, yeah, read about some historical figure or some, like, important period when it comes to policy, and just kind of, yeah, try and get myself into that headspace. So, same question, but for a movie or a show, what's a movie or show you watch that you think everybody should
Justin Rangooni 40:52
Oh, well, it's gonna take, like, almost the exact opposite of like, seriousness. But you know, the officer Veep, you know you can go to those anytime, like just long lasting stand up. I think we're gonna be watching those episodes in the next 30 years, even though Veep is getting kind of more real than I think they originally thought.
Trevor Freeman 41:13
And yeah, in a kind of scary way, but I hear you, yeah, it's good to have those classics that you can always go back to if someone offered you a free round trip anywhere in the world, where
Justin Rangooni 41:24
would you go? Well, as we're taping this, and it's winter and it's cold and there's snow, probably somewhere like Fiji or Bora, Bora, where it's warm and there's beaches, so especially the warmth is where we're really emphasizing right now, I hear you in February.
Trevor Freeman 41:39
Yeah, absolutely. That's the joy and the curse of living in Canada. Who is someone that you admire?
Justin Rangooni 41:47
Well, I'd say you for doing these podcasts, but that is pretty cool that you're doing. Nate, so I appreciate it. You're on the list. Otherwise, I would say otherwise, frontline workers, you know, for even talking about even our sector, you know, you got lines men, you got people who are putting their lives on the line, nurses, teachers, doctors, police officers. You know, those who, every day are putting are on that front lines to do something for others. I think that's those are the real heroes out there.
Trevor Freeman 42:15
Awesome, great answer. And finally, what's something about the energy sector or its future that you're really excited about. And I know we kind of just talked about this, but I'll let you, I'll let you elaborate.
Justin Rangooni 42:26
Oh, it's an easy one, that it's continually evolving like nothing is stagnant. The way things are. We've seen today are going to change tomorrow, and energy storage is a fantastic example of that, where we first talked to 2021 Oh, we were just getting started now. Here we are, and the momentum is growing. If you have me again in another couple years, who knows where we're going to be at that time? So it's really exciting to see where, where it's going.
Trevor Freeman 42:50
Absolutely awesome. Great answer. Justin, thanks very much for your time. I appreciate the conversation. I appreciate your passion and excitement for this pretty cool technology that's going to have a big role to play as we kind of navigate this energy transition, and really already is playing a big role. So thanks for coming on. Thanks for your time and appreciate the
Speaker 1 43:08
conversation. Thanks for having me, Trevor talk again, my friend, awesome. Take care.
Trevor Freeman 43:15
Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback, comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at think energy, at hydro ottawa.com, you.
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Powering tomorrow: investing in Ottawa's energy future
Hydro Ottawa recently unveiled its 2026-2030 investment plan focused on modernizing and strengthening the grid. The way we're consuming energy is changing, and this investment plan focuses on four key areas that highlight why Hydro Ottawa is taking action, how they plan on doing it, and what it all means for you.
Hydro Ottawa's Chief Operating Officer, Distribution and Generation, Guillaume Paradis, joins thinkenergy to dive a little deeper into those focus areas, and why they matter, with host Trevor Freeman.
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Guillaume Paradis on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/guillaume-paradis-30a47721
Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114
Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en
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Transcript:
Trevor Freeman 00:07 Welcome to ThinkEnergy, a podcast that dives into the fast-changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators, and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional, and up-and-coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback, or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at [email protected] everyone, and welcome back. A few episodes back, I talked about some of the important work that happens at the distribution level to maintain and expand our grid, and I tried to connect the dots between that work and the broader societal energy transition that is happening at all levels—how the work we do at the distribution level is really important and tied to some of those larger projects that may get a little bit more news and attention. That energy transition, which, as you're hopefully aware by now, is ongoing right now; it's not something of the future, it's happening today. That energy transition is multifaceted, but from an electricity and electrification perspective, the distribution utility—i.e., the Hydro Ottawa of whatever jurisdiction you're in—is at the very leading edge of many of the changes we need to see within our electricity system to support that transition.So today, I'd like to go a little bit further with that topic and focus on Hydro Ottawa's next five-year investment plan, which covers the 2026 to 2030 period. This will be the largest investment plan in our history as a company, and I wanted to dig into what we have identified as key focus areas for investment in the coming five years. With more than 100 years of operating a large, complex distribution network, Hydro Ottawa is embarking on a pretty significant journey to modernize and strengthen our grid for the challenges and opportunities ahead of us. We have filed our 2026 to 2030 electricity distribution rate application, as it's called, with the Ontario Energy Board. This is a standard practice for all local distribution companies in Ontario; that's what we have to do. As a reminder for our listeners, the Ontario Energy Board, or OEB, as we often call it, is our independent regulator. Their mission in this process is to strike a balance between ensuring the financial health and operational needs of utilities like Hydro Ottawa, while also safeguarding the affordability and reliability of the service for the customer. So they want to make sure that we're spending enough to tackle the right projects on the grid to make sure it stays operational while not spending too much. They meticulously scrutinize every detail of these applications to ensure that the proposed rates are just and reasonable and that all investments are prudent and truly in the public interest.So we have gotten a number of questions about the plan, and specifically around, "Where is the money going to go? What are you going to actually spend these dollars that you're requesting on? And why are these investments necessary? What benefits are they actually going to bring to our community?" And often we get the question of, "Does this mean fewer outages or shorter outages?" So I want to dig into that. I want to talk a little bit about what we've got planned and what the impact will be, and what the impact would be if we don't do those things. And to help me walk through that energy roadmap, that plan that we've put together, I've got Guillaume Paradis joining me today. Guillaume is the Chief Operating Officer of Generation and Distribution here at Hydro Ottawa, and he's going to join me, and we're going to talk through this. Guillaume and his teams are responsible for the planning, design, operation, construction, and maintenance of our electrical power distribution system, and in his role, he leads the teams that are directly accountable for ensuring the safe, efficient, and reliable delivery of electricity to our customers. Today, I'm going to ask Guillaume to really walk us through the details of our investment plan, how it was shaped, how we came up with these specific areas, and what benefits are going to be realized by our community and the broader energy landscape. Guillaume Paradis, welcome to the show.
Guillaume Paradis 04:24 Pleasure to be here, Trevor.
Trevor Freeman 04:26 Okay, so Guillaume, this is Hydro Ottawa's largest investment plan ever, and I'd like you to start by talking us through the primary drivers behind what our five-year investment plan is.
Guillaume Paradis 04:41 Yeah, so as you've heard, as you've seen, we're at a historical, or historically, you know, unique point in the evolution of our industry. Electricity underpins most of our societal aspirations with respect to creating, you know, a more sustainable future, creating the future we want to leave for the next generations. And our distribution system underpins a lot of those aspirations in simple ways and in more complex ways. So, you know, a simple way is that essentially, for, you know, the well-being of our society, for our customers, the residents of Ottawa, and really any area, to live the lives they're hoping to live, to, you know, enjoy the benefits of modern life, electricity is a critical underpinning in any way you can imagine and you know, think about. So our service has always been very important. It's just become even more critical as a foundational block for, you know, the lives that we're hoping to live and we're living today in our modern society. So that, combined with other aspirations related to reducing our carbon footprint and integrating more renewable energy resources within our footprint, it creates a situation where there's a significant need for us to invest, continue to invest, and reinvest in our infrastructure to deliver those outcomes for customers.
Trevor Freeman 06:28 Yeah, I think, I mean, we talk a lot about the energy transition on the show, and if, if you think about, you know, let's say our previous rate application, five years ago, the energy transition was a thing; we knew about it, but it was like a thing of tomorrow where, hey, that's going to come soon. The difference now, I assume, and maybe you can speak to this, is we're seeing that. We're seeing the change now.
Guillaume Paradis 06:52 Yeah, you're exactly correct. Like, we're in it now. So we've been talking about it for some time, both from a, like a general societal aspiration standpoint, but also from a technological standpoint. For a very long time, we talked about electric vehicles having an impact and becoming more commonplace. We talked about leveraging automation to deliver our services. We talked about two-way power flows. So we've been building toward this moment, and now we're essentially in it, if you will, and we're seeing all those things, the confluence of all those longer-term trends sort of manifest themselves in real demand for our system, in real changes in how our customers want to use energy. And we're in the middle of that, and we're, you know, to enable those things happening in our community here in Ottawa.
Trevor Freeman 07:49 Yeah, so it's like the business as usual, a lot of the same things, and we're going to talk about some of the specifics, but a lot of the same things we would normally do, just a lot more of at the same time as, like, also pivoting a little bit to meet some of these new needs, like charging transportation and like heating our spaces more with electricity, like some of these new needs that didn't exist or not to the same extent. So it's like more of the same plus other new stuff. And we're going to talk about that in a minute.
Guillaume Paradis 08:23 Yeah. So, you know, we always would say that the future of the energy sector was very exciting, and things were coming and like, change was upon us, and now, essentially, we're, we're living it, right? So you have to carry on with the responsibilities that you always had, and meanwhile, figure out how to deliver those new outcomes, those new services that previously weren't required or expected.
Trevor Freeman 08:51 Right? So let's, let's kind of get into some of the details here. So there are four key capital investment categories in this plan: growth and electrification, aging infrastructure, grid modernization, and grid resilience. So we're going to dive into the specifics of these in a minute. But to start off with, why? Why these four? How did we land on these four as the main categories?
Guillaume Paradis 09:20 Yeah, so there's, there's various ways you can categorize investments. There's a lot of drivers that will lead us to invest in an area or replace some infrastructure somewhere in our system. These categories capture quite well what is at the core of various investments. So for one specific investment, there will be multiple drivers, but these ones sort of in an elegant way, I would say, capture, you know, why investments are occurring, what the primary driver is for those investments, and they help translate that for, you know, folks who are not involved day-to-day in planning the electricity system, that's our responsibility. What we're trying to communicate is why we're taking action where we're taking action. So those categories, in my mind, capture that really well. They also tie our investments to broad trends that people should be aware of, and they're a way to make sure that we have, you know, a clear baseline for a conversation as we proceed with those plans.
Trevor Freeman 10:30 Yeah, one thing I find, and you know, in my role, I talk to customers a lot, and I find these are fairly easy to explain, or at least, I hope they are. If you're listening and you disagree, let us know. But people can kind of get their heads around why the utility needs to do each of these four things, and some, in some ways, they align with other sectors as well. So I think, and I hope, as we carry on our conversation here, it'll be easy to sort of build out the picture of what we're doing in each of those four areas. So why don't we? Let's dive right in then and look at the specifics. And starting with growth and electrification, what are the specific investments that are planned to support the growing energy needs of our community, you know? And we've already started talking about electric vehicles, other electrified aspects of our lives, like, what? What falls into this category?
Guillaume Paradis 11:23 Yeah, so with respect to growth and electrification, there are a few underlying trends that drive the investment requirements. So as you've suggested, as you mentioned, you know, there's an evolution of how our customers use energy at home, day-to-day. EVs being obviously a primary example that everyone will be very aware of, just, you know, driving around town. Frankly, the difference in how regularly you'll see electric vehicles in our community relative to even five years ago is pretty dramatic, and that is having a long-term, you know, impact over time, likewise for technologies like heat pumps at home and just generally, the growth of our community. So those elements just drive a longer-term trend of more demand being present in our community, within our system, and in addition to that, one big change that we've seen over the last few years is more large-scale demand requests coming into our service territory. Typically that will be large customers wanting to do something different with energy. So it could go or it could be driven by a few different kind of corporate aspirations. What we're seeing a lot of are instances where large corporations decide, or institutions decide to do away with more carbon-intensive energy sources, so they will look to us and electricity to replace what previously would have been another fuel source that maybe is less green. So we're seeing that affecting choices some of those type of customers are making, and then at the same time, we're seeing just large requests related to a different type of energy demand. So companies wanting to, for example, bring back their R&D efforts to a data center that they operate and they control, so that they have more control over cybersecurity, you know, elements, and then likewise, with where their data flows to and how it's being managed. So we're seeing large requests at a rate that we didn't previously, and that those requests are significant enough that they require us to make very major investments, like new substations, like building out new feeders, again at a pace that far outpaces what we've seen historically. So the underlying trend of more small demand creating an impact at the aggregate level, combined with those larger requests, that's creating a significant need for us to invest in responding to that growth in the electrification drivers within our system.
Trevor Freeman 14:42 Yeah, so this is in response to what we're seeing our customers do, and that's it's something that has come up before in conversation here, of, you know, we, we respond to what we see our customers doing and what our customers are asking us. They're asking for more power. We have to respond to provide that more power. So this. So this kind of area of investment is really just building out the grid and all of the assets and infrastructure that are that make up the grid to be able to meet the needs of our customers, which are growing faster than they were previously. Is that fair to say?
Guillaume Paradis 15:17 Yeah, and for us, it's an interesting balancing act. We have to find where we have to anticipate our customers' needs and the demand that's upon us, but we can't get ahead of it, because that would draw investments that potentially would later become stranded or create a cost burden for our customers. So we have to know where the demand is going, and we have to be ready to respond and connect new customers, but we can't get too far ahead of it, because ultimately, you know, if we invest too soon, that's, you know, a burden for all our customers. So sometimes I would say there's that misconception that somehow we're we're creating our own forecasts and believing our own forecasts. And really, it's a bit simpler than that. We take in the requests and we respond to those requests. We have to be able to look out a few years to make sure that we're not missing, you know, anything significant that would have an impact on our system, but we don't get too far ahead from an investment standpoint.
Trevor Freeman 16:31 Okay? So Guillaume, we've been talking about the more traditional aspects of our grid, you know, poles, wires, transformers, et cetera. But I know that we're also looking at how we can deploy what we call non-wire solutions to also help manage capacity on our grid. Can you just explain what some of these solutions are and how we're going to use them in conjunction with our traditional assets to manage grid needs?
Guillaume Paradis 16:56 Yeah, so non-wire alternatives is essentially the concept that without having to install traditional infrastructure—think poles, new transformers, new cables, underground—you may be able to harvest existing resources within your footprint to help you manage operational needs, be it like certain peaks that have a short duration, other scenarios of constraints, where, rather than building net new infrastructure, which is expensive and time-consuming, you might be able to optimize, I'll call it, the use of embedded resources in a manner that actually meets your operational objectives. So the way you would do that is by using a combination of resources. Typically, you would look at small-scale embedded storage. So if it exists in the system, you would actually leverage it. If, if you could, otherwise, you might install some in a very targeted manner that helps you meet those operational needs, and then otherwise you would leverage customer resources. So that's either existing generation that is owned by customers, or which is more typical, their ability to adjust their demand at certain times to meet your operational constraints. So the idea there is that you can do a business case, you can do an evaluation of what it would take to engage all these resources to get the same operational outcome as you would if you build the new infrastructure, and compare the two on a cost basis. And actually, in some instances, see scenarios where those non-wire alternatives actually beat out large-scale infrastructure upgrades from a financial standpoint. So it's, it's an evolving area. We have a few pockets within the city that we're targeting for programs like those ones, and we expect, over time, as more embedded resources proliferate, as more customer devices become controllable, we'll have a greater option, in fact, to leverage those non-wire alternatives or those non-traditional solutions to meet our operational requirements.
Trevor Freeman 19:20 Great. So this is a combination of, you know, Hydro Ottawa is planning to invest in some assets, you know, be they battery or otherwise, on our side of the meter. We call that in front of the meter, to help manage grid needs, while also looking for opportunities to partner with customers, you know, in the aggregate, so, you know, 100 or 1000 customers at once to say, "If we need to call on your devices to either inject into the grid or to ramp back your operations, that will help us manage grid needs while the customer still maintains control." Is that fair to say?
Guillaume Paradis 19:59 Yeah. Fair, and that's that's an emerging capacity we have. So if our ability to control and call upon a very large number of small devices and customer devices has grown and is growing and will be over the next few years, and with that, our capacity to then draw from those resources to respond to operational circumstances is also increasing and will give us options we just wouldn't have had in the past. So it's just a better way of utilizing available energy resources, a more refined way, and one that probably wasn't available to us at scale 10 years ago. Yeah.
Trevor Freeman 20:41 And the driver behind all this is what's the best, most cost-effective way to address that grid need? In some cases, it's going to be the poles and wires and transformers. In some cases, it's going to be these non-wire solutions, and it's it's part of the planning of the grid to identify where does each technology make sense?
Guillaume Paradis 21:02 Absolutely. So again, it's a more refined way of assessing options and ensuring that we identify the most cost-effective strategies possible.
Trevor Freeman 21:14 Perfect, great. Okay, so that's the growth and electrification section. Let's move to aging infrastructure, which is about a third of this investment plan. So this may seem like a softball to start with, but what are some of the challenges posed by aging infrastructure? Maybe talk to us a little bit about what that infrastructure is when it comes to utility grid, and then what are what are we doing with this investment plan to address that aging infrastructure?
Guillaume Paradis 21:43 Yeah, so aging infrastructure is a very clear and appropriate descriptor here. So we invest in assets that are long-lived. Think 50, 60 years plus in some instances. And you know, eventually you use them, you leverage them over many decades, and at some point, those assets deteriorate beyond a point where they're no longer able to provide the service that our customers expect. So that would be failures, which leads to reliability issues in parts of our system. So one at one point or another in the life cycle of those assets, depending on how they're being used, what environment they are operated in, you have to replace them. What we try to do is assess them on a risk basis. And when we say risk, we mean what impact can they have on our customers if they were to fail? Impacts can be things like safety risk. It could be, of course, reliability issues. It could limit our ability to service our customers. And so we assess risk on an ongoing basis, looking at those assets over decades, and eventually we get to a point where the risk has to be addressed, and that typically takes the form of or it can take the form of an outright replacement. Through the life cycle of all those assets, all of our assets, we do maintenance, we inspect them, we try to see if there are other things we can do before we replace them. But you get to a point ultimately, where the only option that's viable is to actually replace, and then you have to go in and take, you know, action physically in the field.Now, what becomes a little complicated is, as you can imagine, it's one thing to put infrastructure up when a field is being converted to a subdivision or the city's growing, and it's all brand new, you know, infrastructure being developed to support the growth, but decades later, when you come back, 60, 70 years plus, in some cases, you're in someone's backyard. You're in the middle of an intersection where multiple utilities have installed their own infrastructure, so you have to coordinate that things have been moved over time. So getting access to the infrastructure is more difficult, and so replacing many decades later is a lot more involved than putting up new infrastructure in the first place.And the type of infrastructure that we're talking about here probably falls into three major categories. So there's the overhead infrastructure you see around town. So really, when you—and you shouldn't do that while you're driving, but if you're walking ideally, and you're looking at the beautiful hydro infrastructure around Ottawa—what you'll see are very old poles that need attention. So that's very visible, right? We have wood poles, you know, in a lot of the areas of our city, and you get to a point where structurally, they're not as strong as they used to be. They've weathered many storms, and they need attention. And then otherwise, it's the transformers you might see on those poles, and that would be the boxes that are hanging from the poles. The ones that look like they, you know, predate the Cold War, are the ones we're going after, and we need to give some attention to today.And then on the underground side, similar infrastructure, it's it's cables in the ground. So in some instances, it's buried directly in someone's backyard. That was an approach people took many decades back. Now you can imagine it's very convenient when you're building it, but not so much when you're trying to get it out of the ground and put new cables into the ground. So there's cables that need replacing. They've been damaged or creating reliability issues. The transformers that go with that as well might need attention. And again, as I mentioned before, decades later, that transformer may be right behind someone's pool in their backyard, and they've done some real nice landscaping, and accessing it for a replacement is a lot more complicated. So underground infrastructure, in fact, is one of the more complicated replacements to execute.And then, you know, if you move up from there, you're looking at substation equipment. So that's the stuff that's fenced in across the city where power is being delivered from to our customers across the city. And so those assets may be a bit less complicated in terms of managing sites and access, but certainly complicated in terms of logistics costs of the equipment. Those are very, very large assets that require a lot of planning to replace because they're critical to our system, and we can't afford to have them be out of service too long.
Trevor Freeman 27:01 Got you and just for our listeners, while Guillaume was talking, I pulled up a few quick stats here. So we have Hydro Ottawa's service territory has over 6,000 kilometers of conductor, so of wires, and just under 50,000 poles out in our service territory. So as you can imagine, a lot of that is in great shape, and some of it isn't, and some of it needs to be addressed, just like, just like you're talking about here.
Guillaume Paradis 27:29 Yeah, and that's helpful. Trevor, the thing that we often forget, especially for electricity distribution, is the sheer number of assets that can create a risk. So it's one thing to manage one large transformer and make sure it doesn't fail, but when you're talking about thousands of assets dispersed around a very large service territory like Ottawa, making sure that we keep an eye on all of them at all times, making sure that we intervene at the exact time prior to a failure, to make sure we deliver the best service possible for our customers. That's really the essence of our challenge, and what makes distribution unique versus other parts of our business, where it's maybe more centralized and you may be looking at a smaller set of assets.
Trevor Freeman 28:16 Yeah, absolutely okay. So obviously it's important to maintain what we've got, in addition to building out that new stuff that we talked about earlier, maintaining and replacing what we have, so that, you know, our existing grid remains reliable. The next section of our investment plan is what we call grid modernization. Now that's something that we've talked about to varying levels of detail on this show before, but I'd like you to talk us through what is in this investment plan over the next five years, when we talk about grid modernization, what are we actually doing? What are some of the specific things that we're going to put some of our investment towards?
Guillaume Paradis 28:57 Yeah, so grid modernization is a category that gets talked about a lot, but maybe is, I would say, a bit misunderstood. I think, because it sounds futuristic, people assume we're doing very different things, and ultimately, in my mind, it's better leveraging technology to get good outcomes for our customers. It's really that simple. So as you can imagine, you know, as I talked about, we're looking at assets that have an expected life of 50, 60, 70 years. When some of our assets were first installed, things like communication technology, things like IT operational technology weren't as advanced as they are today. Our ability to collect data in real time was not what it is today, and so now that we have an opportunity to reinvest and replace the old assets. It's important that we do so in a manner that will allow us to drive or essentially more performance or better performance out of the assets we put in our system so that can take various forms, as I mentioned, getting better real-time information is one of those ways in which we can leverage technology. What that allows us to do is better respond to outages, offer a better service by being more aware of what's happening at any given point in time, getting better information in near real time as to what assets are posing a risk to reliability because they've been utilized heavily, or they've seen a lot of faults, for example, and so building in that technological infrastructure as a layer that enhances the traditional investments that we've always made is sort of the right thing to do in a context where you want to optimize where you spend your dollars, and you don't want to have to go back and reinvest on the same assets or in the same parts of our system multiple times over the coming years, in the coming decades. So the grid modernization portfolio essentially is our opportunity to very strategically identify where we can put in technology that will allow us to get more out of our assets and provide a better service for our customers.So simple things like automated devices, that would be automated switches that we install on our overhead infrastructure, underground infrastructure that gives us a capacity during an outage, to shift demand around and resupply our customers more rapidly than we would have been able to otherwise, and that gives us a capacity to provide a better service under contingency scenarios. So very simple, right? It's telemetry, it's communication to a device, and rather than have someone physically go in the field and, you know, switch customers and try to move demand around, we can do that remotely from our control center. Likewise, in the control center, putting in more telemetry to identify and proactively suggest to our operators how to restore power to customers. Again, is a simple thing by today's standards, right? It's not complicated technology, it's not complicated software, but it's a layer that didn't exist previously, where we can have software, model-based tools suggest how best to optimize the restoration of power, and as we do that, our trained operators get to review and take action in an informed manner. So grid modernization, again, is about making the most of today's available technology, while we reinvest in our distribution system to make sure that the quality of our service and the breadth of the services we can provide align well going forward, with our customers' aspirations and provide a quality service for many decades to come.
Trevor Freeman 33:26 Yeah, and I think it's important to remember. And you know this, this little saying has has been out there in the industry, and I've used it before, of the electricity grid is the world's largest machine. Like the grid itself is a piece of technology, and like any technology, we would not be happy if it stayed stagnant. Like we want it to evolve with with the latest and greatest and operate better and more efficiently. And the grid is no different, and so part of grid modernization is just keeping up with what's out there to make sure we are delivering the service that we deliver in the best way, in the most advanced way, in the most efficient way possible. With that, Guillaume, what about things like, you know, we hear a lot about more distributed energy resources, so more small-scale generation or storage out there on the grid that might be owned by the utility, but it might not be, it might be customer owned. What? What are we doing from a grid modernization perspective, to enable more distributed energy resources to utilize those assets more on our grid?
Guillaume Paradis 34:42 Yeah, so that's core to the evolution and we're proposing and working toward. And and really, if you boil it down to, you know, a simple kind of concept, it's really that traditionally, we've had a static model of how our grid needs to operate, and we planned accordingly. So you know, power flows in one direction to certain size customers. They use electricity, they use our energy, and then we protect, we coordinate, we control accordingly, and we're moving into an environment where customer behavior evolves in a dynamic fashion in near real time, depending on what prices are available in the electricity market, depending on what aspirations various customers have, depending on what technology they want to deploy to manage their energy footprint. A customer may look different, really, from one day to the next, as far as the electricity system is concerned, because their demand might be less significant on a day where their solar panels are better able to generate energy, on a day where they choose to leverage a large battery system that they've installed at their facilities to manage their demand. And so from an electricity system standpoint, we need a much better awareness of what is happening in near real time to be able to control and then respond and ultimately offer the right service for our customers. So that's a big change, again, going back to the how we're going to enable that, it's again, the core elements of communication infrastructure, more telemetry, so that we can see what's happening in real time. Think sensors, think smart meters. Think, you know, a software system within our control room to take all that information in in real time and make sense of it, and then ultimately drive our decision making and support our customers in leveraging energy resources in an optimal way for their needs, by making sure that we're aware of what's happening and not create barriers that are artificial because we're not sure, and when we're not sure, safety is paramount, and when you prioritize safety and you don't have information, you have to be very conservative in the decisions you make, and you may limit customers' choices and behavioral, you know, choices by having to have that safety margin and that safety conscience kind of override everything else. So better telemetry, better real-time information, more dynamic ways of controlling energy allows us to enable customers and and support their aspirations.
Trevor Freeman 37:50 I mean, it really comes kind of full circle back to our job is to let our customers do what they want to do when it comes to energy, enable that, and that may be just making sure the power is there and available, but it also may be making sure that our grid is set up to allow them to generate and store and sort of interact with energy in the way that they want to. So those two things are quite parallel. Okay, great. Last category here is grid resilience, and this is an important one, and especially in the eyes of our customers, because, you know, we're that unique industry where most of the time people don't think of us when they really do think about us, it's because the lights have gone off, because there's some event that has resulted in an outage, and I just want to ensure our customers, we try very, very hard to make sure that doesn't happen as much as we can't control everything. So we have this category of grid resilience in our investment plan, and we know that we're going to be seeing, and we have already started to see, more frequent extreme weather events. That is increasing. It's not going down. So what are we doing in our investment plan? Or what are we planning to do in order to enhance grid resiliency and withstand those extreme weather events?
Guillaume Paradis 39:14 Yeah, so the need for resilience, in my mind, comes from a couple places. So, you know, there are drivers that are external; so the operating environment is evolving. To your point, we've seen a number of very impactful weather events over the last few years, whether it be historically impactful ice storms, we've seen tornadoes in our service territory in a way that we didn't previously. We saw derecho a couple years ago, which was by some measure the most impactful storm in the history of our company. And so we know. How what we plan to withstand has evolved, and we need to reflect that in the decisions we make when we invest in our infrastructure. That can take a few forms. But for grid resilience, we're targeting specific investments so we can identify and have identified areas of our system that are more vulnerable. Imagine overhead infrastructure that is more exposed to stronger winds, and so we can go in there and then target those areas, target those segments of our system and make them more robust, more resistant to those external factors. And so we have assessed our entire service territory, we've studied, you know, our vulnerability to changing patterns, to changing weather events, and in a very targeted manner, identified areas where we'll take action over the next five years to boost resilience of our electricity system in those scenarios, and really just generally.The other element is, while those external factors are evolving and creating a stress on our system, we're also seeing people's dependence on electricity's availability continue to grow, right? So, you know, we've been through this many times at this point, and I'm sure it's been covered on on this podcast a number of times. But, you know, people's, you know, need for highly and readily available electricity continues to go up. Think, you know, remote work. Think our utilization of, you know, the internet and the technologies that support that. People need access to power, you know, on an ongoing basis for a variety of reasons that support their lifestyles. And so while the external factors have become and are becoming more challenging and creating a stress, we're also seeing customers relying more heavily on our service being available. And so those things combined make it sort of an imperative that we take action and ensure that our system is robust and can withstand those conditions that are upon us.So we change our planning approach. We evolve our choices with respect to investments. It could be simpler things than, you know, targeting areas and replacing specific infrastructure. It could be as simple as changing our standards so that when we install a new pole, we know that it can withstand harsher winds and heavier ice loading parameters, and we do that across all our investments. So that's a key point here, with respect to grid resilience. Yes, we have a targeted, sort of very strategic approach to building resilience, but we also do that across all our investment categories, when we put money in our distribution system to make sure that, similar to the point we made about technology. You know, we invest in assets that will, you know, outlive many of us, and they need to be adequate and appropriate for the environment in which they will operate long-term. So we change, you know, the choices we make, we change the materials we use to build the infrastructure that we put in our system, so that ultimately, the service levels and service quality that our customers get to enjoy, you know, meets their expectations for decades to come.
Trevor Freeman 43:59 I think the idea like it's good that we have called out specifically some activities targeted at group resilience, but some of the other stuff that we've already talked about also support resilience. And you mentioned in the grid modernization part, you know, part of that is restoring power to most customers quicker. In our growth and electrification part, I mean, making sure that our grid can handle the new loads also lends itself to resiliency. So all of this is in service of making sure that power is there for our customers when they need it, how they need it, and done in a sort of safe and affordable way. That's the goal of of all these categories together.
Guillaume Paradis 44:46 Absolutely. The, you know, going back to the earlier point, the categories are helpful in identifying the major drivers. But ultimately, to your point, Trevor, they all support each other, and when our team plans, depends the future of electricity system. They do so in an integrated manner that considers the various benefits that we can achieve by taking action and putting more money in our distribution system.
Trevor Freeman 45:13 Yeah, great. So that that's a nice segue into this next question, which is, of course, there's a cost for this, and this and this is why it is an investment plan. We're out there outlining these are our targets. This is what we want to do, but there's a cost to that, and so if we don't do this, if we said, "Look, we just can't put that extra investment into these areas," what are the implications on the grid, on our service? And let's look at kind of like quality of service, reliability, safety, et cetera, if we don't make these investments that we are identifying right now.
Guillaume Paradis 45:54 Yeah, so it's pretty direct, right? We what we've done for the in preparation for our rate application, in preparation for to develop our plans for 2026 to 2030, is we've considered all the needs. We've looked at how old the assets are, how quickly they're deteriorating, how many might require replacement over the next five years. What would be an appropriate rate of replacement to ensure that we don't let risk build up in our system, we don't cause reliability issues? We've looked at making sure that we can provide service to our customers, that we can connect them in a timely manner, that we can do all those things in a fashion that is safe and ensures the safety of the public, our customers. And so a lot of thought goes into what is required over the next five years. And then on top of those factors and considerations, we also look at what impact will this have financially on our customers? Because we're mindful that our service does affect, you know, our customers' lives, yes, in a positive manner when our service is reliable and power is available, but also financially from a cost standpoint. We add to other pressures that everyone experiences in their lives, and so we want to be very judicious in setting the size of our programs, the level of investments, in managing those various factors, right? So we have a multifaceted responsibility, and we weigh all those factors in our or in setting the plans for the future.So doing so, looking five years out, as you can probably imagine, you know, if we didn't constrain the plans, if we just did everything our planning engineers would like to do, we would have spent probably another 50% more than what is in the current plan. So looking at old assets, looking at the service levels we want to deliver, we could have spent a significantly larger amount of money if it was purely based on, we'll call them planning, you know, drivers. But as I said, we are mindful that we're responsible for the quality of our service on behalf of all our customers, and we took a very deliberate, you know, extensive approach to adjusting the program size to match the various considerations and ultimately manage the impact on our customers from a financial standpoint. And so we landed where we are after some measure of restraint, some measure of adjustments, down to the plans that would otherwise have been put in place.So thinking about what the outcomes would be if we didn't take the actions we're proposing, you know, it's pretty direct, if you think about it, and we've covered most of them, but it ranges from, you know, difficulties in connecting and delivering power to new customers in a timely manner, so that can have impacts with respect to economic development and growth of our community, so fairly direct, and frankly, it's our obligation to connect, so we would do everything we can to provide power, but it might just be more difficult, take more time on the reliability front. Again, what happens when you don't replace old assets is the failure risks continue to build in your system. So an 80-year-old wood pole doesn't get any younger and doesn't get any stronger if you wait five, six more years. And so as I said, we do a risk assessment before we choose to invest, and our risk assessments tell us that we need to take action on those types of assets. And, you know, take action in a timely manner. If we don't, what is likely to happen is that in a storm scenario, those poles that are deteriorated are more likely to fail. Even in normal conditions, it's likely that we would see more failures that could lead to reliability issues, and so just a direct impact on the quality of our service for our customers, with respect to other outcomes like enabling customers and supporting them in integrating more embedded energy resources. That might just become more difficult, as I said earlier, when we don't have good real-time awareness, we have to err on the side of caution and be more conservative in our management of the system, and that might mean restrictions on where and how we can integrate renewable energy resources. And then ultimately, you know, the paramount consideration for us is always safety, and that's an area where we would just have to be even more vigilant if we couldn't reinvest. So old assets, you know, are inherently more likely to create failure risks, and failures can lead to undesirable outcomes from a safety standpoint, so we would have to, and already do, but be very vigilant in monitoring those assets, looking at them, looking at what we can do from a maintenance standpoint to ensure that they don't fail in a manner that would be problematic. So we would be, and are always very active in looking at those riskier assets, those older assets, to make sure they don't cause problems, but reducing investment levels from what is being proposed now, reducing them further relative to, as I said, the planning levels we would have liked to put forward would have real consequences, and of course, we would do everything we can to manage those consequences and ensure that we continue to deliver the best service we can, but that would become more difficult than it is today.
Trevor Freeman 52:27 I appreciate that that context of, you know, you like me, like energy, and we want to do all the cool things, and we want to have the system that is is absolutely able to handle every eventuality. But we have to balance that with what is the right level of investment, what is the right pace to go at? And I think, you know, having seen the process, there's been a lot of work over the last year plus to find that balance. And I think we've, we've hit that balance in terms of being able to move the ball forward while trying to maintain that sort of affordability aspect for customers. Last question here, Guillaume, to kind of wrap it all up, and we've touched on this a few times in some of the other questions. But how does our investment plan align with that broader energy transition that that we talk about, you know, decarbonizing, reducing emissions, increasing sort of customer flexibility when it comes to their own generation and storage. And what role do you see Hydro Ottawa playing moving forward in that? And I know that this has already gotten a little bit of attention, but I'll give you a chance just to kind of tie a nice little bow around it at the end.
Guillaume Paradis 53:51 So to your point, we did cover a few elements, how we enable those, you know, sustainability aspirations. But you know, it ranges from making it possible for large customers to shift a significant portion of their energy demand to a lower carbon source like electricity. So again, think a customer who would use natural gas for their facilities, and, you know, for corporate reasons, decides to use electricity instead. Us connecting that extra demand and delivering power to them allows them to lower their carbon footprint. So that would be on the high end in terms of size and impact, all the way to enabling customers to install different technologies on their homes, within their homes, to reduce their carbon footprint and change how they use energy. So it could be as simple as buying an EV and making sure that power is available within that neighborhood to supply demand from that EV. It could be them installing solar panels on their roof and trying to export power back to us. And so that would tie to the earlier point around visibility and real-time awareness that we need to have to make sure that we can make that possible. So again, you know the energy system. The electricity system is integrated in so many ways and enabling our customers to achieve their sustainability outcomes, their desired outcomes in terms of energy use, comes from planning the energy system, the electricity distribution system, in a manner that supports that and that permits it. So again, going back to some categories, the grid modernization that we spoke about earlier, fits right in there. So being aware allows us to allow and enable customers, and that becomes critical again, in an environment where things are very dynamic, and we want to support that dynamism, and we need to do so in a manner that's safe. So we need information, and we need technology that allows us to go get that information to support the decision making. So as we said, all the investments we're proposing in one way or another will support our supporting those decarbonization and emission reduction objectives that we all have.
Trevor Freeman 56:38 Right? Yeah, it really comes back to the idea of us being—and this is something that I certainly talk to our customers about—a lot of us being partners with our customers when it comes to their energy journeys. And that can be very active partners in the sense of the word, where we are involved in helping make decisions together on technology or strategies, or it can be very passive, and that kind of residential model that you talked about of just making sure the grid can be there in the way that the customer wants it to be there. And that's still a partnership that that we need to lean into, and that we are kind of through this investment.
Guillaume Paradis 57:18 Plan, we're essentially underpinning people's aspirations when it comes to energy, and so we're there to make it possible for them to do what they're hoping to do. And you're absolutely right. We're seeing both ends of those conversations where some go about their own choices and really don't need us involved, and our responsibility there is to make sure that we don't create a roadblock by not being prepared and not being equipped to respond to, you know, how they want to change their behavior, all the way to that partnership, where it's a very involved conversation. You know, we're being brought in to fully explore all the options and work with stakeholders in essentially demystifying, or maybe more specifically, sort of seeing through some of the complexity that exists today in an environment that is much more dynamic again and offers a lot more options than people would have seen a few decades ago.
Trevor Freeman 58:23 Fantastic. Well, Guillaume, I think we'll leave it there. This has been great, and I appreciate you taking the time to help pick apart, you know what? What can be a pretty complex, lengthy plan, but really boils down to building out the grid, continuing to do the great work that that the folks at Hydro Ottawa do, while also preparing for the future. So I appreciate your insight into this. As our listeners know, we always end these interviews with a series of questions, and you're no different. So I'm going to dive, dive right into that. So Guillaume, what is a book that you've read that you think everyone should read?
Guillaume Paradis 59:06 Yeah, so I'm probably going to get his name wrong, or at least the pronunciation, but it's a book called How the World Really Works, by Vaclav Smil. Essentially, you know, he's a very pragmatic thinker with respect to how systems work, how our world is integrated from a supply standpoint, from a geopolitical standpoint, and how that leads to outcomes in the real world. And think things like energy, think, things like food supply. And what I like with his approach is that he breaks things down, sort of from a first-principle standpoint, to try to help explain why certain things may or may not be possible, and in an environment where—and maybe that's my perspective—but I think today there's a lot of big-picture, you know, broad opinions being shared by people who may or may not always be very knowledgeable or have the expertise in certain fields. It's nice to see someone kind of break things down to then try to support, or in some cases dispel certain misconceptions. So really nice approach. He has a number of books that are similar in nature, some cases a bit dense to read through, frankly, but I would say the How the World Really Works book is easier to digest, and it's it's a good entry into kind of his works and and his approach to his studies. The other thing that's a plus, maybe, is that he's based out of Winnipeg and Canadian. So it's great to have a mind like his, you know, contributing to the discourse in Canada.
Trevor Freeman 1:01:11 Awesome. So same question, but for a movie or a show, what's a movie or show that you think everyone should check out?
Guillaume Paradis 1:01:17 Yeah, that's a little harder. I think maybe I'll go to an old classic. For me, I I'm always impressed with extreme creativity. I'll call it in in whatever forms that I think it's neat to see how people can envision a world or create a world. And so an example for me was The Grand Budapest Hotel movie by Wes Anderson. So, you know, I think people are familiar with his work by now. I just like the combination of humor, color, like the creation of a world that doesn't quite exist but resembles one we might know. And just, you know, it's a way of expressing oneself that is so interesting, so different. He does it really, really well. And, you, know, I find it sort of like awe-inspiring to go back to those kind of movies and look at, certainly, there's all sorts of good content these days that's being produced. But I think this one is kind of withstood the test of time so far and and kind of brings you to a different place. So I'll point to that.
Trevor Freeman 1:02:30 Yeah, it's one of those where it's not just about the story. The whole watching that movie is a bit of an experience. And all the ways that you just said, you know, there's like an artificial aspect to it. There's that sort of mental, emotional side of it, and then there's the story itself, with the humor and everything. So, yeah, that's a great one. I really like that.
Guillaume Paradis 1:02:47 Always fascinating to think someone was able to come up with that, right? Like that. Yeah, totally level. Like the attention to details, the way in which the storylines are integrated, the way in which the decors, the images are graphic. It's just remarkable. And, and I think in anything it's really cool to see people who are sort of masters at their art, right? And whatever form, and there's all sorts of other examples, but that one, you know, came to mind. Yeah, very cool.
Trevor Freeman 1:03:21 If you had a free round-trip flight anywhere in the world, where would you go?
Guillaume Paradis 1:03:25 I think for me, it'd be somewhere very far north. I think it's on the list somewhere for the next few years. But just getting access to lands, scenery that you wouldn't otherwise is a really cool concept, maybe even spaces that are a bit less impacted by human, you know, behavior and presence. So I just think a flight to somewhere random that maybe doesn't even have a name, but is in between two small villages that can only be accessed by a plane. I think that would be cool.
Trevor Freeman 1:04:10 Yeah, that does sound very cool. I like that. Who is someone that you admire?
Guillaume Paradis 1:04:15 Yeah, so my wife, for sure. I think that's sort of the foundation of a healthy relationship, you should have some admiration for your partner, and I absolutely do. More generally, I would just point to anyone in our lives, and I think we all know people like that who spend a large amount of their time making other people's lives better. I could pick, you know, a celebrity of some kind, or politician of some kind, or even a historical figure, but, you know, I think in general, it doesn't have to be that complicated. People who just invest a lot of their time, you know, making sure others' lives are better. I think that's that's something we should all admire, aspire to, you know, emulate, if we can, and just recognize as well. Because a lot of the times people do that, the people who do it well, don't do it for recognition. It doesn't mean they don't deserve it. And I think we should kind of try to promote it, you know, recognize it in our lives, and encourage it and emulate it, if we can.
Trevor Freeman 1:05:30 Fantastic. Well said, last question, what is something about the energy sector or its future that you are particularly excited about?
Guillaume Paradis 1:05:37 Yeah, so I've been in the sector for about 20 years now, in fact, longer than that. My father worked for Hydro Quebec for many decades. So think we spent a lot of time talking about the future and getting excited about a future that was to come, and just the fact that we're living it now, that we're actually shaping it, is pretty exciting, maybe even not appreciated to its full extent. And I think having a chance to contribute now is really awesome, and to whatever extent we can as well. I'm trying to encourage as many people as possible to join our sector, bring various backgrounds, you know, expertise, knowledge to helping us make decisions about how energy is going to be used in our society going forward, and how we can make the most, you know, this confluence of factors that, you know, create the window of opportunity to to change things and make them evolve. And so for those of us who are part of it, let's not take it for granted, and let's make sure that we contribute to the full extent of our capabilities.
Trevor Freeman 1:06:58 Awesome, great, great way to wrap this up. I agree completely. Guillaume, thanks so much for your time. I really appreciate it. And sharing your thoughts with us. Really appreciate you coming on the show.
Guillaume Paradis 1:07:07 Thanks, Trevor. Pleasure.
Trevor Freeman 1:07:10 Great, take care. Well, there you have it, everybody. That was our last episode of the season before our summer break. Our regular listeners will know that we typically take a break over the summer to regroup and work on content and plan out the next year. But don't worry, we will be still releasing episodes every two weeks. They will just be rewind episodes, and we'll take a look back at some of our favorite episodes or things that we feel are particularly relevant for what's going on right now. So keep tuning in and listen to those, and we will be back with brand new content in September. Take care and have a safe summer. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the ThinkEnergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback, comments, or an idea for a show or a guest, you can always reach us at [email protected].
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