Episoder
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Sebastian Junger's Tribe: On Homecoming & Belonging is a little gem of a book. In this episode, Jason & Steve dive in & pull on various threads related to community, trauma, the myth of separation, culture & more. We intended for this discussion to be the first in a series that explores what constitutes running culture & how a warrior ethos can deepen & expand our experience of running & life.
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On this episode Jason & Steve wade into the deep end as they reflect on how we are all full of shit & what we can do about it.
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Mangler du episoder?
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Your hosts reflect on the concept of groundedness & how important this concept is to all our life pursuits, especially running.
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Reflections on Episode 3, The Map Is Not The Territory
Jason : I reflected mostly on the map of “career”. All the beliefs that go into this map and how profoundly and insidiously it has affected my own life. Maybe we can talk about this in this fourth episode???
About a myopic focus on outcomes and mistaking the map for the territory…I need to clean this up. It is kind of a brain dump.
We talked about how humans like to be predictive. More specifically, we like to think we can control and manipulate variables in our environment in order to achieve certain outcomes. This may be true, to an extent, under certain conditions–such as a low variable set–or when one only considers limited influence over outcomes. For example, trying to manipulate or control general or specific physiological outcomes through the structure of workouts in a training plan focuses on a (relatively) narrow variable set and yields limited control.
Where we get in trouble with problematic thinking around outcomes and control is when we think we can predict and control multi-variate outcomes like races. In fact, I believe we over-invest our energy in focusing on things we can’t really control. Too many things are outside of our control on race day. Our outcome expectations often subsume so many of these variables that are out of our control and this sets us up for disappointment. We’d do better to focus on the variables we can control and then construct our outcome goals around those variables.
Steve: I concur whole-heartedly.
I feel like we covered the basics pretty well.
If you want we can add the following:
One of my athletes, Alex Brenner, added a comment to the new community space dedicated to this podcast. If you want to access that site, just subscribe at rungnosis.com & we’ll add you to the community.
Alex:
Great episode! I thought it was funny when you guys started talking about consciousness and riffing on the fact that it's hard to define what is "conscious" let alone what consciousness itself is or how it's produced by the human brain. Steve says something about how the different theories of consciousness would "blow your mind," and how we shouldn't trust anybody who claims to know anything about it with certainty.That all hit close to home for me because it's the reason why I quit neuroscience! 🙃 After four years of undergraduate study and two years working in a research lab, I personally felt that the consciousness question ("The Hard Problem") is sort of a dead end as far as scientific research goes, and it serves as a pretty good launching pad for someone (me) to start exploring philosophy instead. There's no real consensus about what consciousness even is, or whether it's something that's even exclusively possessed by living organisms (well-respected figures in the field believe that all matter may possess "consciousness" and that it's not a question of *whether* something is conscious but *the degree* to which that thing is conscious). The human brain is limited by the fact that it is a piece of hardware trying to make sense of the software that comes pre-loaded on it, and I think that if we ever do make a breakthrough in terms of The Hard Problem, it'll come from an AI black-box rather than a team of neuroscientists. So now I'm in law school.
One other thing that I wanted to tack onto a was the mention of the simulation argument, because I think it's really interesting and useful in this convo. Steve mentions that Elon Musk had brought it up recently - if you're interested in digging deeper I would read Nick Bostrum and David Chalmers' ideas about it instead.
The barebones version boils down to the question "do you believe humans will ever be capable of creating highly realistic computer simulations of reality?" If you do, then the possibilities are that we 1) we do make those simulations, or 2) humanity collectively decides never to actually go ahead and create a reality simulator. If you think 1 is more likely, math says we're probably living in a simulation now. If humanity creates ONE single simulated reality that's so detailed that the residents of the simulation can't tell the difference, then that means there's a 50% chance that we're in that one now, and a 50% chance that we're living in the "real" reality. Knowing how humanity is though, we probably wouldn't just make one - the real odds would be 1/X that we're living in the "real" reality, where X is the total number of simulations that are *ever* run. If you think of something like the Sims computer games as an example, then there would be hundreds of millions of simulations, with only one "real" reality - making it super unlikely that that's the one we're currently in. Especially if those simulations also become capable of creating simulations themselves.
Obviously there's no way to know whether or not any of it's true (and importantly it doesn't really matter if any of it is), so the whole thing is just a thought experiment, but I think it's a really interesting angle on the conversation about the "map" not being the "territory." If you want a better explainer that goes into more depth, this podcast episode does a great job of really driving home the nuts and bolts:
THE END OF THE WORLD: SIMULATION ARGUMENT
I listened to the episode & found it fascinating. In fact, I have to admit to being convinced that the Simulation Argument is a valid point of view that should be considered seriously. Give it a listen!
Now onto the main topic.
The Self, Identity & Soul
Jason: Identity and Groundedness: As we discussed in the last episode, Identity is another map to be aware of…
I’d like to explore the meaning of this concept. What is identity? How is it related to the concept of the “self”? I don’t have strong answers, if any, to these questions so I think it will be fun to explore the questions in an open dialogue. Currently, I find the Buddhist perspective of the nonself to be the most compelling thought on this topic. Are there other traditions/philosophies related to this subject that you want to highlight?
Steve: This is such a huge topic that it’s hard to know exactly where to start but I was recently thinking that the loss of the concept of soul in the past 150 years & how the psychological concept of self has supplanted the soul. Of course, that takes us down an entirely different train of thought due to religious & spiritual connotations around the concept of soul. But I think I, for one, feel much more confident saying that I have a soul than I have a self.
This is especially interesting to me because psychology is now considered a the scientific study of mind & behavior, but its etymological roots are in something far more mysterious & incorporeal.I find it ironic that Psyche was the Greek goddess of the soul & now is considered not to even exist.
I think there is a through line here from an idea of an essential nature that has throughout time immemorial been considered immortal. Perhaps some of our deeper questions around how identity is a source of suffering but also something we ...
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HERE is an article to get you thinking about the concept.
The term The Map is not the Territory comes from Polish-American social philosopher Alfred Korzbzyski. Two other quotes from other thinkers might be useful here for reference.
“All models are wrong but some are useful” - British statistician George Box
“The map appears to us more real than the land.” -British writer & poet D.H. LawrenceA fuller fleshing out of the concept in Korzbyski words:
A.) A map may have a structure similar or dissimilar to the structure of the territory.
B.) Two similar structures have similar ‘logical’ characteristics. Thus, if in a correct map, Dresden is given as between Paris and Warsaw, a similar relation is found in the actual territory.
C.) A map is not the actual territory.
D.) An ideal map would contain the map of the map, the map of the map of the map, etc., endlessly…We may call this characteristic self-reflexiveness.Maps exist to help us conceptualize the territory they represent. But it is important to keep in mind that they are merely a representation, a symbol of an actual place on the earth.
Analogously, all conceptual systems are a map & not the territory. This is a significant problem for most human beings. We are so representationally aligned by our maps that we can frequently get locked into a prison of our own thinking, where whatever is real gets clouded by the concept. Eventually we can only see our models & both the pattern - which may not even have actually been anything other than a trick of our desire to predict - & the reality first observed are utterly forgotten.
Patterns seem to exist in nature. Humans like to predict so we can survive & thrive. Then we take these patterns & build models. The models help us determine our next, best steps to consider so we may act in the world. As we act, we nearly always begin to confuse the model we created for the pattern we observed. We do this over & over & over. Many of humanity's biggest problems come from these classic mistaken metaphors.
Some classic “maps”:
Symbols (language, art, musical notation, icons, etc.) - We create useful symbols to hold a concept in a useful form. Beliefs - We create mental habit patterns to represent what we feel to be true. The belief is not the actual truth, it is an emotionally held thought we use to represent a concept. Systems - larger, intertwined patterns of thought that are organized frameworks or methods.Time - a specific system of measurement to represent the perceived experience of a past, present & future. This is discretely divided into seconds, minutes hours, etc. A clock, sundial or hourglass are maps of an inner territory.We are not arguing that maps are not beneficial, useful or advantageous to human flourishing. It is just crucial to understand how these are easily taken as real, concrete, & physical.
Running Equivalents
Training plans are not fixed or actual indicators of fitness. Course maps & elevations are not the actual course. Strava & Geekometers are not the actual physical adaptations, they are data collectors. Strategy is a concept for predicting how the race JB will play out, not the steps along the path.Humans fundamentally operating under the physiological, psychological & cultural imperatives to predict. This need to predict causes us to create models to begin testing reality, catagorize it & build models to allow us better results. So we are spending the vast majority of our time making maps. We want to ensure these maps are not mistaken for the territory of reality, whatever that may be.
Final thoughts on how “essence” or “soul” are also maps.
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One of the critically overlooked concepts for humans in general, but runners in particular, is the position we take on reality, sometimes called A Worldview. This impacts so much of what a runner deals with in training, racing & life…yet is so rarely brought forward to examine.
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Why another podcast?
Conversations between two coaches, runners & friends where we explore topics & questions that might be considered “meta” or “big”. We individually spend lots of time reading, researching & contemplating these areas & realized that having a conversion partner to help bounce our thoughts off of would be beneficial to us & we thought others might enjoy listening in. What makes this different from other running podcasts?What we hope to accomplish?
Discussions on topics related to a deeper & more fulfilling life, filtered through a running lens.Topics will run the gamut but likely to sit in the following general categories (if these could possibly be conceived of as “general”: philosophy, psychology, human potential & performance, transformation, psychedelics, “spiritual”, esoteric & potentially “woo-woo”, etc.But we will always try to bring the point back to the practical & pragmatic. Questions, not answers.Jason’s goals & hopes for the podcast.
Steve’s goals & hopes for the podcast.
Free range conversation based on these goals & hopes.
