Episoder
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Dr Louise Pendry of Exeter University talk to Ceri Wheeldon of Fab after Fifty on how we are influenced by stereotypes of ageing, and how our impressions of ageing are formed from a very young age.
Her new book Grandmas Can't Trampoline is written for young girls , to help combat the normal stereotypes they already have when it comes to negative perceptions of ageing.
Although written for children - the book has been well received by adults.
A lively discussion on a topic that affects us all!
A full transcript is available on the next page
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Transcript: Interview with Dr Louise Pendry on Challenging Perceptions of Age and her New Book Grandmas Can't Trampoline
[00:01:08] Hello. And today, I'm so pleased to have with me my guest, Dr. Louis Pendry, who is a senior lecturer in psychology at Exeter University, and who specializes in stereotyping and prejudice. Hello, Louise, and welcome to the podcast.
[00:01:23] Hello and thank you very much for having me.
[00:01:26] Can you expand a little bit on the sort of a study that you do and the lectures that you give,
[00:01:34] Well, over the years, I have been looking at a general topic of stereotyping and prejudice, and it was the subject of my p_h_d_ many years ago. Now I'm looking at when people stereotype, why they stereotype and how to overcome stereotyping. And over the years, I've done that looking at lots of different stereotype groups. So things to do with gender, ethnicity, age to some extent. But I think it's only in the last few years as I've got older myself that I've started to focus in a little bit more specifically on the issues around ageism and age stereotyping. And I think because I've just recently hit 50 myself, it's just become a topic of interest to me at a personal level as well as at an academic level. So now I've refined my teaching somewhat and then I'm moving more towards teaching a little bit more on the issues around getting older and the positives, the negatives around getting older and what we can all do to age positively and well, I suppose. And just understanding that the issues that my students who are only age 18 are facing already with a negative view of an age that they've kind of grown up in internalized over many years. And that's the sort of dialogue that I want to have with them right now.
[00:00:02] I understand Louise that you've just written a book which has just been published.
[00:00:12] I have, a bit of a departure for me, although I do quite like writing in my job as an academic. This is a children's book, which is nothing like I've ever done before. So it's just coming out this month. Basically,it's available. Why did you decide to write a book for children. Well, that's a good question. So it's something I haven't ever done before. I think it's come out of the fact that I'm having conversations with my students. Obviously, they're not children. They are 18 plus increasingly about getting older and ageism and age stereotyping, prejudice, a very big part of what I teach and research and what becomes apparent when I talk to my students and I notice from the research anyway, is that even at that tender age, they have already got a negative perception about getting older. And it's it's mainly because that's the way we've been brought up. It's we internalize these negative stereotypes because ageism is everywhere in our environment. It's there every time we walk down the greetings card on our local supermarket. And we see that the milestone birthday cards that are just having a pop at how dreadful is to get old or every time we see anti-aging language being used to advertising market products that hold back the years and banish those wrinkles or just the way that older people are represented in TV and film, that somehow being I guess invisible or frail or just mattering less than when they were younger. And my students acknowledge and we discuss that they've already internalized all of these negative stereotypes without necessarily wanting to. It's just part and parcel of what they've been exposed to. So what I wanted to do was go go even further back and talk to an even younger audience, because I'm aware that kids, even as young as 6 have quite negative views about growing old.
[00:01:57] And I find that amazing that even though they've already formed those views, yes, it is quite shocking.
[00:02:04] But there is definitely research out there to support that, that essentially it's not great to get old. You know, it's become boring, frail, grumpy, ugly, afraid of change. And we just don't matter as much. And these sorts of negative perceptions are. Yeah, they are they are found even in our younger people. So I think what I wanted to do was to create a story where a little girl was going to experience contact with an older person and watch and track the relationship that develops with that with that older person. And also not just that person, just not not one person on her own. It's her grandmother, but also all the other people that she gets exposed to during a trip where she could go. She goes abroad and spend some time with her grandmother and the people that she's exposed to, all different kinds of people. And I think one of the things that I'm really keen to dispel is this notion that there's a kind of homogeneity, a similarity about all people, that they are all the same and probably not very positively, all the same as well. So in the book, there are different characters and there are different points of view made. Whilst the grandmother character, Nancy, is a very feisty WOKE kind of woman who's physically very active seems to be quite fit. She's also very well aware of the fact that that is not the case for everybody. And so she puts the points of view of all different kinds of age of age people in the conversations that we had.
[00:03:31] She has a Nancy causing it to just question the degree to which. We don't necessarily think about variety in older people and some of the isolation and loneliness affects older people. Is it brought out in the book? So it is definitely it's not painting at a universally happy, positive view of getting older. I like to think it's tinged with the reality that there are many different ways that we grow old and not show positive, but we can have a sense of agency about some of the ways that we do grow old. And there are things that we can do to make our aging processes as good as they can be, I suppose. And that's the story that I want to tell. And it's through the eyes of a little girl. So it's very much tracking the shift in her own perceptions because she starts out extremely negative about the whole prospect of spending summer with her grandmother and her elderly friends. And by the end, she comes home having had a quite a conversion experience and realizing that actually the older people can be every bit as varied as younger people and as much to like about them as well. And so we have much more in common with them than we don't have in common with them. It's just about finding that overlap and finding the things that we can accept are similar and then working on those together.
[00:04:44] And that's key, isn't it? The diversity in all of older people and I use the term very loosely. I found certainly when I set up the Fab after Fifty website, I had meetings with all sorts of people who basically lumped everybody 50 into one category and essentially we all sat in rocking chairs and did knitting. Yes. And so with no perception of any sort of individuality or that you can be as different in your 50s, you know, to the person sitting next to you as you were in your 20s and 30s.
[00:05:14] Exactly. Exactly. And I think one of the images that one of my students shows, because they do presentations on this topic in my seminar, they showed this image of the different ages of life kind of thing. And so you had the toddler, the young child, the teenager, the student, the mum, the career person. And then there was just one person to represent the older person, the older woman. And it was a frail person with grey hair bent over using a walking stick. And it's almost like when you get to that stage, there is only one portrayal and it's going to be stereotypical. And so this book is about challenging those stereotypes and allowing an understanding of diversity in older people that I think is often missing and in so much of what we see in society.
[00:05:59] Yes. I mean, and I stress in my workplace discussions that, again, you can have a really ambitious 60 year old, but equally, you could have a less ambitious 22 year old. Exactly. And I was just just very sort of drivers in that respect.
[00:06:17] No, I think the stereotype suggests that that they do. But of course, that that that's what the stereotype is. It's an overgeneralization. And within each of those age groups, there will be variety. And it's just important to notice that variety and not to gloss over it and just assume, because I think stereotypes are an easier way of getting about life. You know, if we can just assume people are the same, then life is much easier. We haven't got to make allowances for people being different. We can just make judgments based on the fact that they're probably going to not like to be very active. For example, they're probably not going to go out very much. And all of these things just makes life easier. We like to be able to predict our environment stereotypes do that for us, but obviously not all very successfully when they gloss over individual differences that are what make older people unique.
[00:07:02] Actually, I came under criticism by some initially. I didn't say my parents very often. I like that so well. Why don't you make time for them? There's not that. They haven't got time for me. I had to catch them between cruises, between been golfing trips, between bridge nights, between running photography classes. I mean, they do so much. It's not that I haven't got time for them that they just making the most of every single day that they have.
[00:07:27] Yes. And I think there are many more people doing that than it used to be the case. And the more that can be done to show that variety is going to be helpful. But if my parents are exactly the same, that never in the same country for more than a few weeks at a time, it seemed to me in their later life. Yes.
[00:07:42] Why do you think that youth is perceived as positive and being older. It's perceived as negative.
[00:07:50] Well, we are conditioned to prefer everything that is youthful, and it's just everything that's around us. So sells youth as a time of positivity, a sign of possibility, I suppose. I think the correlates of being probably in better health then when we;re older in which to some extent may be true, that's not be universally positive about the fact that there are certain health issues that are more likely to happen to us as we get older. But basically youth is portrayed as everything that growing older isn't. So it's a time of thriving rather than receding and failing. And that's got to be a more, more appealing sell, I suppose for people. They are. They're not going to want to go for the one that talks about failing to thrive. They want to go from one that's talking about thriving. So it's and it's just everywhere. We reward youth. You know, in the workplace, while you're rewarded for doing odd jobs and getting on at a younger age and being ambitious and the perception that as we get older, these sorts of things sort of fall away. Not necessarily true at all. But these are the sorts of things that we are just conditioned to think.
[00:08:53] That's how the world is.
[00:08:55] And what sort of reaction are you getting so far,I know the book has not been available to buy yet. But in terms of people who read the proofs, etcetera, or pre-publication copy. What sort of reaction are you getting?
[00:09:09] Well, it's it's interesting, actually. Certainly, I've had a number of kids and adults read and comment on drafts as it's been going through the phase of creation process. And I certainly think the market, the target market seems to be younger girls, probably eight to eleven, sort of pre secondary school age because the protagonist is just on the cusp of going to secondary school herself. And so I think from that perspective and it's a little girl that's something that's going to appeal to that market is a gentle story, but it's quite a powerful story about a relationship. What's become apparent is having had a number of adults read it to male and female is the women in particular are saying that it's really making them think about how we're all complicit in our own ageism. And they're really enjoying this understanding of ageing as a more positive process and that there are benefits that can accrue as we get older. And so many of us, we just we get lost because we are conditioned to not think that's the case. And just having a moment to reflect and to talk, have conversations with your children about these sorts of issues is really important. Men who've read it have said it's because it's not just about the experiences of an older woman. There are men characters in the book as well. They have also said they're finding it really, really perception shifting, if you like, in terms of making them think more about the variety of what it is to be elderly. So I think I think understanding that ageism, which I think in the words of Todd Nelson is prejudiced towards our feared future selves is something that we are all complicit in. And realising as they read this book that they hadn't necessarily thought about that, but they are, too. It's really unhelpful to have that negative attitude. So I'm really keen to target the kids. But I also think that the parents and the grandparents will find this book helpful as well.
[00:11:06] So it sounds like a really lovely book that perhaps know grandparents and grandchildren could read together.
[00:11:12] That's exactly how I see it. I think I would love to be the case. And I've got a number of people who have read the drafts and have said right, that's it, I'm buying it for my for my granddaughter because I want to read it with her. And I want to have this conversation about what it's really like to get older and and just to kind of understand also that stereotypes can change. And the fact that we have internalized these negative views, it doesn't mean it's set in stone and that we can challenge them unthinkable getting older in a different way. Certainly that's the case of the protagonist in the book, just the little girl. By the end of it, she is a very much more a pro-age activist, I suppose, and wanting to get involved in her her local care home and getting her school friends involved as well, visiting them and doing activities together and just basically realising that it's important to have this intergenerational contact. It really matters. It makes a huge difference for everyone benefit. I think that's the thing as well. It's not just a case of older people benefit younger people and older people benefit from getting together and realizing what makes us unique and celebrating that.
[00:12:17] What I have always found interesting is when you meet individuals, they'll say, well. Well, for instance, if I meet somebody in a PR department, they're normally relatively young and we're talking about products or services for women over 50. And they'll say, oh, yes, that my mother wouldn't use this because she's not a typical 50 year old. And I have to say, well, she probably is. So we all know people who aren't the stereotype you perceive and the fact that wasn't it with a group of quite a large number of young women in a marketing department and they all said that their mothers didn't make didn't meet the typical stereotype of a woman in her 50s. I think you've got 15 people here and you will all say your own mothers buck the trend, so to speak. Yeah, it may be that your perception of a stereotype is wrong and it was almost a penny dropping moment.
[00:13:14] Yeah, I think we can all think of examples. Depends how extreme those examples are. I mean, sometimes we have got role models,we see our parents, our mums are really, really living life. Like you say, your parents are really embracing life as they've got older. When that's our role model, that's our examples, that's our reference and our stereotypes may be somewhat different, but for many people that isn't the case. And actually, even even when it is, even when we do have those sort of reference points, when they are some extremely disconfirming, a stereotype that's getting older is actually a time of decline. Often what we do is we keep that negative stereotype in tact and we just have these people as exceptions to the rule. So we're quite good at maintaining all stereotypes. What better way to challenge the stereotypes is to start to see role models who are a bit of everything. They're not just necessarily extremely engaged and doing everything. Maybe they're doing a bit of that, but they've also got some more stereotypic stuff. Maybe they sit at home knitting as well. You know, they can be anything really and quite trendy. Yes. Yes, it is true. I knit myself myself. So I think it's just understanding that we can have a very, very skewed perception based on the people that we come into contact with. And that can make it seem that there isn't a problem. I accept that. But equally, we can just retain that sort of perception if we just think that that person is just so atypical and they don't represent what most older people are like. So we've just got to be careful that we don't kind of pigeonhole these exceptions. And just leave our overall stereotype intact. I think this is not going to be a positive way forward.
[00:14:51] I'm not sure we've given the name of your book yet. Believe that the title, which I love, by the way, I haven't.
[00:14:57] Well, it's called Grandma's Can't Trampoline. And it's it's it's a poignant title because it's very relevant to something that happens within the story. And obviously, the book cover is featuring the little girl and her grandmother on the trampoline. And the little girl is looking somewhat askance at the fact that her grandmother is going quite mad on the trampoline whilst accept the fact thing that not everybody is going to be jumping up or down on the trampoline. I think it's the point of it is just to try and get across that we can be we can be anything that we want to be really. And as long as we are capable of doing these things and we put the motivation, then age shouldn't be a barrier to us.
[00:15:35] It's all about saying as you can do anything at any age.
[00:15:39] Yes, I think so. And you can you can also not trampoline. I think you were saying that you didn't like trampoline yourself when you're in your twenties, you know. No, I don't.
[00:15:58] So, no, I'm not trying to say that everyone should jump on the trampoline. Not. But but the point of it is. Well, as you'll see if you if you read the story. The fact that her grandmother does go on trampoline on a trampoline park is a source of great embarrassment to the little girl, because that's just you. She just you just shouldn't do that because, you know, you're an old person and at the end she ends up going with her to a trampoline park. And it's quite a sort of groundbreaking moment when she realizes that she's embarrassed to be seen with a grandmother, really embarrassed to be seen with a grandmother in a situation, even though she thinks that she's moved on in that context, she just feels, oh, my goodness, my grandmother making an idiot of herself. So it's quite a poignant moment. So, yeah, that's it. That's kind of central story throughout the book that we weave. We finish off at the end, I suppose, without wanting to give too much away.
[00:16:53] Now, that sounds really, really interesting. I do hope it goes well. I think people buy the book.
[00:17:00] Ok. Well, it's going to be available on Amazon as an e-book or as a paperback. And I think it's £1.99 for the e-book and £6.99 for the paperback. It's also available on the Luli website as well. So just lulu.com. So I'm hoping that people buy it, read it with the kids and feedback would be really, really welcome.
[00:17:36] As I said, it's a great book that different generations in the family can read together.
[00:17:41] Yes, that's that is my hope that it really is going to make people think about their own prejudices. So it's not just trying to challenge the prejudices of younger people. It's a book that applies to many people.
[00:17:53] It could be a good book club suggestion. All I can say.
[00:17:56] Yes, I think so. Because of that. Because it is it is obviously it's very, very easy reading. But it's the issues are not easy. The issues are quite challenging.
[00:18:06] Well, thank you so much for sharing that with us. Pleasure. Again, the title of the book and your name in full if people want to Google the book and the author. Yeah.
[00:18:14] The title of the book is Grandma Can't Trampoline. My name is Louise Pendry. The publisher is Publish Nation.
[00:18:23] All right. Well, thank you so much for sharing that today. Good luck. It is very much needed. The earlier we can start challenging those perceptions the better.
[00:18:32] Yes, I think so. Absolutely agree. Thank you very much for giving me this opportunity.
[00:18:36] You're welcome it's been really interesting to learn all about it. And I hope the book does really well. Thank you. Bye bye. Bye.
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Dr Louise Pendry of Exeter University talks to Ceri Wheeldon of Fab after Fifty about positive and constructive ways to manage the menopause in the workplace, based on her experience of setting up a menopause cafe, and putting together a menopause guidance policy for her own workplace.
Full transcript is available on next page.
Dr Louise Pendry can be contacted via her university email address [email protected]
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Full transcript:
Interview with Dr Louise Pendry on Managing the Menopause in the Workplace and the Benefits of a Menopause Cafe[00:01:08] Hello. And today, I'm so pleased to have with me my guest, Dr. Louis Pendry, who is a senior lecturer in psychology at Exeter University, and who specializes in stereotyping and prejudice. Hello, Louise, and welcome to the podcast.
[00:01:23] Hello and thank you very much for having me.
[00:01:26] Can you expand a little bit on the sort of a study that you do and the lectures that you give,
[00:01:34] Well, over the years, I have been looking at a general topic of stereotyping and prejudice, and it was the subject of my p_h_d_ many years ago. Now I'm looking at when people stereotype, why they stereotype and how to overcome stereotyping. And over the years, I've done that looking at lots of different stereotype groups. So things to do with gender, ethnicity, age to some extent. But I think it's only in the last few years as I've got older myself that I've started to focus in a little bit more specifically on the issues around ageism and age stereotyping. And I think because I've just recently hit 50 myself, it's just become a topic of interest to me at a personal level as well as at an academic level. So now I've refined my teaching somewhat and then I'm moving more towards teaching a little bit more on the issues around getting older and the positives, the negatives around getting older and what we can all do to age positively and well, I suppose. And just understanding that the issues that my students who are only age 18 are facing already with a negative view of an age that they've kind of grown up in internalized over many years. And that's the sort of dialogue that I want to have with them right now.
[00:02:40] And I guess in many respects, menopause fits into that, doesn't it? Especially with the menopause, women being the fastest growing demographic in the workplace and on menopause is something which we experience as we age.
[00:02:52] Definitely. So we find ourselves in a kind of double whammy where we are getting older, which we all do. And we are. Some of us, not all of us are experiencing some changes that go along with menopause. And sometimes that can affect the way that we feel about the way that we're doing our job and just wanting to do the best job that we can. Just wanting to understand ways that we can manage that transition to make it as positive as we can, both for ourselves and the organizations within which we work and our colleagues. Really.
[00:03:20] How did you specifically get involved in the menopause initiative at your university?
[00:03:25] Well, I think I was just doing a lot of reading, as I generally do, and I just started to think about how great my employer is in terms of its family friendly policies. When I had my kids, it was fantastic in terms of part time working and just making adjustments for having kids. And it's absolutely brilliant. And it just dawned on me that when it came to this phase of my life, I would have had a fairly positive experience myself. I haven't had too many issues. But nonetheless, just looking around at what support was available until very recently, we didn't seem to have very much in the way of a policy or guidance information to help women and also those who are working alongside women manage this transition in their lives. So what happened was I just wrote a letter to the provost at my university to that effect, just said how great we are at the younger and what can we do to look after the women who are getting towards menopause, and of the workforce and managing their transition through that so that they can be continue to be as amazing and productive as they have been thus far. As I say, not not everyone's going to have any issues anyway, but for those who do, certain adjustments can make life much more simple. And so that was the conversation got me in front of the head of H.R. and working with them, we were able to craft a guidance policy which has been in place for over a year now. And it's spawned a lot of interest and a lot more positivity, I think, around the topic of menopause in my organization, because I guess that we do have the stress and the menopause.
[00:04:56] It's something that's purely natural, isn't it? And it's not negative for everybody, is it? Not everybody experiences severe symptoms.
[00:05:04] Absolutely not. It certainly isn't the case that all women are going to have problems. Many women sail through it and many women have slight symptoms and manage them perfectly well without any kind of adjustments being made. There will be some, however, for whom it is slightly more of an adjustment. Some of the symptoms are a little bit problematic in the day to day life. But as I say, that doesn't mean that they can't have adjustments made that are going to make that their lots much more comfortable and much more they're just going to be as productive as they have always been. A little bit of careful thought, I suppose, in terms of managing that work situation on what are the sorts of issues that can affect women at work. So I think there are many things. Menopause, unfortunately, I gets very bad press. There are lots of different symptoms that come up if you just Google it. But issues around self-confidence, self-esteem, the more physical symptoms of hot flushes, which can be quite debilitating and embarrassing to deal with when you're sitting in a meeting, for example, and understanding how to get through those moments. But just. Just more generally, just a sense in which there are symptoms around depression, for example, that that can correlate with with going through menopause, just a lack of confidence and just a sense in which your body is changing and you don't necessarily understand all the things that are going on. It can just be quite disorientating, I suppose. And just feeling that you have no one to talk to, especially in a workplace organization, can be quite, quite challenging. I think for many women.
[00:06:34] And in terms of adjustments that can be made to help support those who are affected through the workplace, what sorts of adjustments? I'll be talking about lots of adjustments to have the university made, for instance.
[00:06:46] Well, I think they're done on a case by case basis. So what often happens is women will have an appointment with occupational health and talk about the different issues that they are experiencing. It may not actually be necessarily menopause per say that brings them in front of occupational health with issues. But the symptoms may be consistent with a menopausal explanation and it can just be adjustments, too. For example, understanding the need to have access to drinking water and shower facilities for those who are having a hot flushes, being able to leave meetings if they have a hot flush without giving an explanation that they're feeling uncomfortable. If they are in one of the sectors of the university that had uniform requirements, making sure that the uniform is fit for purpose in terms of not made from synthetic fibers that can aggravate hot sweats, for example. And then more generally, I suppose there are things around adjustments to working patterns. So it could be that stuff. You don't necessarily have access to flexible working because not all of us do can have conversations about adjustments to their working patterns. So that, for example, if sleeping, which is often an issue that correlates with knock on effects of concentration, these sorts of things can be managed perhaps the slightly later start time and or later end time. So none of these things are necessarily going to impact on other people in the organization, but they are things that can make a massive difference for women who are experience experiencing some of those symptoms.
[00:08:12] Now, I would imagine that for some women, it's very difficult to actually start that conversation.
[00:08:18] Yes, it is. And I absolutely understand that as somebody who is, I think, quite woke when it comes to menopausal issues. I still would think it's not necessarily that easy to just start a conversation with your line manager if you're having problems, not least because sometimes our line managers are younger than us. There might be a gender difference as well, which which we feel is awkward. And that's not also forget that those who who would do report to may not have that much knowledge and experience themselves of dealing with these sorts of issues. And so for them, it's a very uncomfortable conversation that rightly or wrongly, they may shy away from also because they don't have the knowledge or the skills to actually advise in these situations. And they feel a little bit disempowered, I suppose, because it's it's out of their normal remit of the things that they're generally dealing with. So for all of these reasons that can make women themselves and managers shy away from these conversations, because what kind of kind of words are going to be opened up, I suppose? How is it going to be managed once that conversation is had? But also, I think for women who fear that it somehow portrays them as less.
[00:09:23] And that's something that I would be very keen to dispel, the notion that this is in any way trying to disempower women. And to say that they are not able to cope in their day to day work. It is simply about making recognizing that some adjustments may be beneficial to allow women to continue to be as productive as she has been up to that point. But these conversations, nonetheless, are very difficult to broach. So it's I think one of the things that really makes a difference is, as we've now got in my university, a growing sense of a supportive environment around this issue, where you can raise this topic and know that there are people that you can talk to. If there are issues, you may find that your initial conversation doesn't necessarily go that well. But there are people that you can refer people to to have conversations, to get things back on track. I suppose so not feeling that the first conversation that you have is all that's going to happen, knowing that there is a network of support across the university for these sorts of issues.
[00:10:23] How did you put that network of support in place and how do you make women aware that that network exists?
[00:10:30] Well, we are very good at advertising. We have a Web site, obviously offering information is on our university Web site and it's part of our positive work environment agenda to make sure that, you know, the health and well-being of all our staff are supported. So it's if if employers are looking to incorporate this, it can be part of an existing work environment that they probably got there anyway. That's trying to make make the work environment more positive for all of their staff. So we advertise on our website. We also have a mailing list of interested women who are mainly because we set up a menopause cafe, which I think we're gonna be talking about later. Women who want to take part in a regular get together or women just to talk about some of the topics around this issue in a very safe, safe space. And we have been also have that as well. So the other thing that we do is we advertise regularly in our staff newsletter as well, which goes out when it goes that week. So we pop the pop things in there as and when. Just to keep it visible, I suppose. And we also have done a couple of events at our staff festival where we have tried to have conversations with women around managing menopause in the workplace and how to have a positive menopause with positive menopause experience at work. So we're just we're just trying to keep it visible and to promote it wherever we can. And I suppose I'm the go to person on all the mailing lists and contact points. So, yeah, we've we just basically have to keep keep chipping away and keeping it visible, keeping higher up the agenda so that it's not just lost off the bottom. It matters it really matters that we're supporting our women at this stage in their lives.
[00:12:10] And you mentioned that the Menopause Cafe, which I think is a great name. What is the menopause cafe?
[00:12:17] So I Googled this when I was first trying to find out support that we can do on campus and the menopause cafe can take place anywhere, really. But it's essentially just a group of people who get together. It's not necessarily just women. It can be anybody who is affected by this issue. So it could be friends or colleagues, for example, who want to find out a little bit more. And it is just getting people together regularly in a very safe, respectful and primarily confidential space. I think that that's something that is very important, where it's open to everyone, regardless of gender or age. And it's not a gender led. So it's not something where we're trying to push a particular point of view. It's just a place for people to get together. Could bring along a drink if they want to. And within our university, I will always be presenting and perhaps somebody also from H.R. who can help advise on any employment related issues. But it isn't the place to have an agenda to push stuff. So I suppose what I do that's slightly different from the traditional menopause cafe is I do, however, offer information and advice and research. Books and things that I found interesting because I read a lot in this area, so I will talk about some of those sorts of issues.
[00:13:28] And also we have something within our own university, which is an amazing opportunity where we often mindfulness for men managing menopause and we talk about some of the women's experiences of that. And when the next courses are running and just how they can get involved in that sort of thing. So it is a general thing. It's not supposed to be pushing anything in particular, but I have modified it slightly so that we can make it do a little bit more. I would aspire in the future, perhaps to have visting speakers once in a while. Well, if budget allows so that we can get doctors in, for example, who've got attitudes and advice to give on lifestyle changes that could be made to support menopause and those sorts of things, because it's not necessarily all about medicine, HRT or that's obviously a solution for many women as well. So it's just about the space where we can have women get together. I think the bottom line is it's a chance for women in my organization, many of whom haven't got together before. Now we're all making new friends as part of this group to share our experiences or tips on how we cope with some of the symptoms and just offer advice in a nonjudgmental way, I suppose.
[00:14:30] What sorts of things to women who come along? What's the things they raise in the Menopause Cafe?
[00:14:37] I think one of the things that they were raising initially was the first thing they said is, oh, my goodness, thank goodness this is now existing. I never felt I had anybody I could talk to. I was embarrassed. I felt awkward. I felt somehow like I was failing in my job because I was experiencing some of these symptoms and I should just be able to get on with it. So one of the things is just that they raise is just not having felt that they had a voice in the past. And now this has given them a voice. So that's that's quite helpful. I think they're also mindful of just needing to. Share experiences and to build build in a positive way on how to make the space in their lives better. Because I think it's not it's not a doom and gloom merchants here. You know, as I say, we've talked about the fact that not everybody women has it badly. Some women just sail through. But just having a kind of agent victim mindset, I suppose. And so that's the sort of things that we talk about. And the women who come say they like being given some tools and some some some things to think about, I suppose. Well, they may not have actually thought about it very much before and just felt very abandoned and isolated.
[00:15:46] I guess in extreme cases, you do have a small percentage, but still a percentage nonetheless, of women who feel they can't manage their symptoms and actually leave work that they prematurely really, especially in the environment. We're all expected to work now until we reach 66 or 67.
[00:16:02] Yes. And I think it's never, never a better time than to get these sorts of issues on the agenda for that very reason, because we are working longer and we women want to work longer. And we don't necessarily need to have any adjustments at all. But minor adjustments can make a huge difference and can stop the kind of exodus that has been shown in research that, you know, quite a number of women who are really struggling to leave their employment because they don't feel that they are supported and they can't manage their symptoms. So anything that we could do to mitigate that is vitally important in the context where we are expected and needing to work that much longer, keeping us in the workforce and keeping us healthy and happy within the workforce in a positive way. It's got to be a good thing.
[00:16:45] There's also maybe many women don't equate the symptoms that they're experiencing with the menopause and they might not understand why they're feeling the way they do. You mentioned symptoms such as depression and fatigue through lack of sleep, but it's an opportunity to be open and realize they are not alone. Other women are also experiencing it. It makes sense to them. And then they know that's something they can to do, that can do things which can be constructive to resolve the working situation, to help them.
[00:17:13] Definitely. I think just realizing that there is a commonality of experience here, although everyone's experience is so unique, some some recurring things are coming out in our discussions that we're having. And just realizing that it doesn't it isn't always menopause. That's because some of these symptoms are bunched together into menopause because they are consistent with it. But it may not always be. But just understanding that it could be that there are things that we can do that might help, because I think also talking about changes in the workplace and adjustments, that's only a part of it. Obviously, we can take control from for many other things. So there are lifestyle dietary changes that we can make that have been shown to really impact on on our health as we get older more generally and also specifically related to menopause, too. So conversations around that can can really be very beneficial, I think, to make women feel a little bit more like they have some say in the process, because you can feel quite powerless when these sorts of things are going on. And that's not necessarily the case.And
[00:18:10] also today, I guess there is far more information available on the topic. There was perhaps in our mother's generation. There are things online. And so many more books out there and so many more support groups which our mothers and grandmothers wouldn't have had the benefit of.
[00:18:25] No, I think, you know, my mum would have just got on with it and talked to talked about hot flushes and went very quiet on everything else. And there was just something that you just had to put up and shut up, basically. There is a downside, which is that I think so much so much is out there that there can be a quite a negative portrayal if you Google menopause. It does seem quite negative. And I think that's not necessarily everyone's experience. And as I say, there are so many things that can mitigate some of the things that do happen anyway. So knowledge can be a good thing, but it can be a double edged sword if it's if it's creating a sort of perception of it being a really negative experience for everyone, that's just not true. So even if it is somewhat negative for some women, there are things that can be done. So knowledge can be power, but it can also be a little bit. It can it can skew perceptions about how bad it is. And I wouldn't want it to be that menopause got the badge as being this, you know. Well, all the stereotypes that exist around potentially that it's just, you know, crazy woman time of life. Absolutely not. So you have to be measured and use appropriate information when we're doing our searches for information on how to manage menopause, not get caught up in the kind of not very not very positive media articles that you sometimes read about women losing their minds and things like that. I think there is a more balanced picture out there.
[00:19:42] I know that. I think they've been very careful as well, that we don't scaremonger in terms of employment opportunities here because people already perceive that there is ageism in the recruitment process. And we don't want to give employers another opportunity to perhaps be unconsciously biased against recruiting women over 50 or promoting women over 50 because so many women have already experienced a gender bias that concerns the childbearing years. Or she may leave to have a baby. Let's not. Bring her on board, and the last thing we want to do now is actually create an environment where people think we can't recruit her because she is of menopausal age, she may need time off or we may have to adjust her working patterns accordingly. Let's not do that. I think we have to be I think we, too, have to be so careful that this is presented in a constructive and positive way.
[00:20:31] Definitely. And I think when you have those conversations with your employer, it should definitely be that that should be the constructive way that you mentioned is absolutely the way to do it. So it's not you don't if you have an issue and you want to talk to your employer, you're not going to just have a rant about how awful life is. You're going to offer constructive solutions about what you could do that will do what your employer could do to make life better. And in the context of women not getting on or perception, they won't be employed with them in later life because they're of a menopausal age. I think we have to just change that taboo that basically says that menopause is always a negative thing and that it can it can be mitigated. It definitely can be mitigated. No, it's no reason to not employ someone.
[00:21:14] No. I was in a session just the last few days with somebody was saying they had somebody who said she couldn't concentrate for nine hours a day anymore. She was a software developer and they said they had a situation where they had an outstanding individual. But to concentrate in that role, nine hours a day five days a week with too much. And so they had conversations internally and they decided they'd rather have peak performance for seven hours a day, and not so peak performance for nine hours a day. And so they had that discussion and she was happy to be paid less to work seven hours and not nine hours. And it would have been a relief. Yes. And they said her productivity didn't even go down. So it was an adjustment. It was something that just one person couldn't make the decision on. But it was HR in conjunction with line management, they made an adjustment and everybody won.
[00:22:06] Yes. And I think that's an example of how done properly these sorts of adjustments can can be a win win situation. Definitely.
[00:22:15] So the menopause cafe then, how many organizations actually have them? Are there any stats on this? I think I read somewhere that one in 10 organizations are becoming more menopause aware. But I'm not sure that actually equates to holding a menopause cafe.
[00:22:27] I haven't got any stats up to date. Stats on how many there are. The menopause cafe sites allows you to advertise that. But I don't think everybody who runs a menopause cafe necessarily does. For example, we don't always do that. So yeah, I think it's growing, but I wouldn't be able to give you a specific figure at the moment.
[00:22:47] But I guess the positive thing is that it's been taken seriously and it's been handled in a positive, constructive way. Overall, yes, I think so. I mean, I know people like HenPicked, they run menopause awareness workshops that large corporate. Yes. So they work very hard to get it onto the agenda as well.
[00:23:06] I think so. Credit to them that they really kept up the pressure as well. And whenever there's any kind of major event, there's that is the menopause week. I think in on the BBC breakfast time early this year, you know, they had a feature on their keeping it to the top of the agenda. Just not letting it slip and just making sure that people are aware there's no there's no shame about it. It shouldn't be a taboo issue. And and what I like about henpecked is the way that they are constructive and offer solutions and getting getting organizations like that to come into the workforce and explain how it's possible to make these changes in a positive way is, I think, instrumental, really instrumental in changing, shifting perceptions of how menopause is dealt with in the workplace they have actually contributed to the Fab after Fifty website as well on this , which has been really well received.
[00:23:56] Yes. Yes. All the questions, because one of the things we have is there is sort of legislation in place that you're not supposed to be able to discriminate to get on the basis of age or all the other aspects as well. But yes, that isn't always reflected in mindsets. We're talking about the unconscious bias here as well, aren't we? I am saying like these positive initiatives, like the HenPicked menopause in the workplace, the Menopause Cafes, the policy issue we are incorporating within your own institution, all these things help, don't they?
[00:24:29] I think so. And it is about shifting a mindset and it's without wanting to blame anybody. It's just it's the way the world has been for many, many years. Negative stereotypes about menopause as being some sort of uncertainty about this madness. As you know, since this phase of woman's life where things go awry and we have all sorts of negative perceptions about it that we've internalized over the years, and that's nobody's fault. That's just the way it has been portrayed as having a more positive perception of it and a more constructive perception of it is absolutely going to be the way forward.
[00:25:06] Well, thank you so much for sharing that with us today. Louise, if people want to find. What about the work that you do? How would they find out about it?
[00:25:15] I suppose they can always email me if you want to. If they Google the University of Exeter home page and just put in menopause, I'll get our own guidance policy up there as well. And some of the things that we're doing. So that's something else that they could do. But yes, I welcome conversations. I'm very happy to get involved with any organizations that are thinking about implementing these sorts of solutions and menopause cafes as well. Because honestly, they have made such a huge difference to the women in my organization. We've got over 60 on the Menopause Cafe mailing list at the moment and quite a lot come to them. Not all of them come every time, but we get 15 to 20 coming. And the perception is that they want to keep running. And they just feel that we've finally got a policy starting to happen that's going to make a difference to them moving forward. And so it's a much more positive environment, I think, than it used to be with regards to menopause here. And that that's for the good.
[00:26:17] Well, thank you so much for sharing that today. Louise, I think that's helpful to many. And also perhaps any employers who are listening will perhaps get some insight as to how they can make their environment more menopause friendly as well. Okay. My pleasure. Thank you very much. Thank you so much.
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Mangler du episoder?
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Ceri Wheeldon of Fab after Fifty talks to coach and therapist Marie Fraser, who works with women to help rebuild their lives following divorce. This is the first in a series of interviews.
Marie talks about why it is so important to understand what you like and want in life as you transition from being part of a couple to being single.
Why it is important to let go of your past life and plans as a couple.
How to identify new interests and passions.
Letting go of past routines and habits.
Setting your own goals and living your own dreams
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Full Episode Transcript
Fab after Fifty Podcast with Marie Fraser: Divorce over 50 getting to know yourself[00:00:01] I'm Ceri Wheeldon. Welcome to the Fab after Fifty podcast. Leading the pro-age conversation, talking about all things life after 50.
[00:00:17] Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Fab after Fifty podcast. I'm really delighted today to have with me as my guest. Marie Fraser. Marie is a therapist and coach who supports and guides women in rebuilding their lives following divorce and breakups. Hello Marie and welcome to Fab after Fifty.
[00:00:33] Hi, Ceri. Thanks for inviting me. It's a pleasure to be here.
[00:00:38] Now, as my guest today, I'm thrilled to have you on this particular show. We're going to be doing a series of episodes, aren't we, on on divorce and breakup and rebuilding your life. And you're also going to be a regular contributor to Fab after Fifty. So I'm delighted that the listeners and readers can get to know you a little bit better now. So what are we going to be talking about on this episode?
[00:01:02] I thought it would be a good idea to talk about getting to know yourself following a breakup because we can after so many years in a relationship, lose our identity because we have various roles in the relationship. And all of a sudden when when you are alone following the breakup, you can lose the sense of who you are. I mean, I remember myself personally thinking, oh, my God. Where did that 24 year old go? And it you know, I wasn't that obviously the same person I was at 24. But because I, from my personal situation, was in a relationship which was very dominated by my ex-husband. I followed along more or less with what he he wanted, you know, it was his friends, what he said, et cetera, et cetera. And I just didn't know who I was, what I wanted and where I wanted to be and where I wanted to go, where I could see the next part of my life going. And so that was a huge shock for me personally.
[00:02:21] I mean, I'm sure lots of women in their 50s who've been in a long relationship and have split up. I've had similar experiences. And, you know, it can be quite difficult to actually, I think, look to the future because it makes you uncertain of where your next part of your life is going. Does that make sense? Oh, absolutely.
[00:02:48] Because, I mean, there are more and more women out there who are getting divorced in the 50s, but it's their choice or their partner's choice or indeed now even later in their 60s, silver divorces are on the rise. I've also gone through a divorce in my 50s so we're both speaking from personal experience here as well, aren't we?
[00:03:07] Oh, sure. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:03:09] And like you say, it's very difficult to get used to thinking, okay, so who am I now? Because like you, I was in a relationship which was fair to say my interests were very contained within that relationship, to put it lightly, where we only really did the things that were on his list. And all of a sudden you have the opportunity to do things that are on your list and you think, well, what do I want on that list now?
[00:03:33] Exactly. And it seems a crazy thing, but nothing immediately comes to mind because you've been in this relationship where because of the repetition of being side lined from, you know, for the ex partners interests. You really do forget, actually, what is it that I want to do? What do I like doing? Because you've just gone along for to keep the peace piece or, you know, for the sake of it, it was , you know, it was easy. I mean, I personally and I'm sure lots of other women can relate to that. You know, it was always my husband's friends that we socialised with. You know, very few of my friends were entertained by my ex-husband. So, again, it was sort of creating a new friendships at the end of the day.
[00:04:30] And I think also, I mean, when you come out of a relationship. If it wasn't perhaps the worst case scenario. A very controlling one. Being on your own for the first time is you don't have that normal couples routine anymore, do you? Whereas when you were a couple, you get into a pattern of what time you have dinner. What you have to. I mean, I know that was a big thing. Besides, I could just eat what I liked. It didn't have to consider somebody else's requirements when it came to meal times. And you do get into that routine, don't you? What day you do your grocery shop or what day the garden gets done, whatever. And then I guess when you find yourself on your own, it's hard. I want to shape that routine for me.
[00:05:12] Exactly. Exactly. And I think it's something things that when you're sort of saying, for example, you normally go to the supermarket on a Monday, you will do it automatically because it's sort of hardwired into your neural pathways. But it's only by doing what you used to do and actually really being aware of what you used to do and then think, no, hang on a minute, I need to change this, because, you know, this is this is my new life. My old life. We did it that way. But, you know, it's not serving me to do it how I used to do it, because, you know, I only have to think about me now.
[00:05:56] You know, if your if you're single on your own, you have no children at home with you, for example.
[00:06:04] So it's almost as though you are re educating yourself into a new routine to suit you, as you say.
[00:06:14] And I think also, I mean, if you've been in a situation where perhaps you had interest when you were younger, where I used to love going to the theatre, for example, my ex didn't want to go to the theatre. Consequently, we didn't go. And it was almost, it's a sense of freedom. I could just go online and see what was on at the theatre locally and book tickets.
[00:06:36] Yes, absolutely. And also, I think it's really useful to look at what you used to do when you were younger.
[00:06:48] Before the relationship. What were the things that really lit you up? And also the things that you did when you were together that you really didn't like but you put up with and then perhaps things that you have now got an interest in? Because my experience says, you know, we do change. So, yes, of course, I wasn't that 24 year old at all. You know, I was the 50 odd year old, but there were new things that I wanted to explore. Does that does that make sense?
[00:07:20] Oh, absolutely. I mean, in terms of getting to know yourself again from a I guess from a therapist point of view, what steps can we take to get to know ourselves?
[00:07:33] Well, one of the most important things I think is to actually, what is it, to sort of look at or decide what is it that you're really, really passionate about?
[00:07:48] What are your sources of you, your dreams and your wishes and desires? Is it to go off and do a hike around Peru, you know, Machu Picchu or things like that?
[00:08:00] Is it travel? Is it um.. What is it that really makes your heart sing, sets you on fire? What are your values? You know what's really important to you and also your interests? You know, I mean, as you get older and certainly from a single person's point of view, I think it's really important to set boundaries of what is acceptable, what is not acceptable, because invariably in the relationship, you will have, you know, not being true to yourself. That's what I find. Most of my clients, that boundary slipped so that there's sort of it's almost like being taken advantage of, you know. Right. You what? You aren't considered. I think, you know, we've had similar situations where we, you know, all of our issues, et cetera, played second choice to to our partners. But, you know, if I go into a new relationship now, my boundaries are very, very secure in that. What I'm w not prepared to compromise on. Does that make sense? Absolutely. It's so important. And it's not a question of being selfish or something, your feel, et cetera. It's about knowing who you are and what you are prepared to deal with and what you're, you know, what's a non-negotiable for you. And it's only by sort of doing what I call, you know, deep work with yourself and understanding what is, as I say, acceptable, what's not acceptable. Also, you know, what are you curious about? They can be very initially. It's very hard when especially if you weren't expecting the break.
[00:10:05] Although I think there are very few times when it's not expected because, you know, there's always sorts of signs that things aren't actually right.
[00:10:17] But even even when you've had signs when there is a break, you know, it is. It is a shock. And so initially, be kind to yourself by, you know, just taking one day at a time, you know, you don't have to eat the whole elephant. Just do what you can on a daily basis so long as you are moving forward. Then just do what you can to, you know, get a plan together of how you would like the next part of your life to be, and I suppose a lot of times when we're making these plans, it's perhaps why we haven't got much energy.
[00:11:00] And I know certainly my own situation, my divorce was incredibly acrimonious and dragged on and on. And I was exhausted by the time it happened. I mean, I thought that by the time that the paperwork was filed I would be so relieved, I'd be raring to go. But about all I wanted to do was sleep for a week. I was shattered. And then, you know, just having gone through that process than it was then sorting out what I wanted to do when I was free and able to do so. But from a place of very little in reserve in terms of the energy that I had to to get things done.
[00:11:32] All right. I totally agree. I mean, just the just the the the shock of the breakup initially is incredibly debilitating.
[00:11:44] And then there is all the paper work that goes with the divorce, which is absolutely exhausting. Also, the fact that you are going over the last X number of years of your life. And, you know, there's a lot of emotion involved in just going through all that. And, you know, that invariably does a lot of negative self talk. You know, I know for myself personally know, I remember saying to myself, you know, why didn't you see this? Why did you allow this? You know, and beating myself up. And I can honestly say and this is what I tell my clients all the time. This is one of the most important times when you need to be kind to yourself big time. And a lot of a lot of self care. I can remember myself. Fortunately, I was self-employed. It's much more difficult if you are your employee. But there'd be times when, like you say, I was so exhausted, I had to go and lie down.
[00:12:53] And that might have been at 10:00 in the morning, you know, I can relate to that or about two o'clock in the afternoon.
[00:13:02] And, you know, if you're in a position where you're able to do that, then you do, because that is your body's way of saying, whoa, hang on. You know, if you don't stop paying attention to me, then you know, you're going to be in real trouble. The most important person is you when you're going through that.
[00:13:22] And you need to do everything that you possibly can to actually keep. Well, you know, I know my situation the timing was quite fortunate.
[00:13:33] The neighbor needed their dog walking. And and it was actually very therapeutic. I would just go out with Dog.
[00:13:41] Yes. Yes. Well, but yeah, that was that was very lucky. But yes, fine.
[00:13:46] Things like you say that are going to, you know, distract you for, you know, for a few hours a day.
[00:13:54] I mean, one of the things that I did and I do, I have sort of a very warped sense of humor, you know, sort of black humour, like things like Blackadder and what have you. But watching comedy was a great relief to me.
[00:14:10] I thought I'd watch box sets of comedy. Just to sort of, you know, put my mind into a different, different place.
[00:14:20] And it's quite interesting. If you if you're laughing, you cannot be miserable. I mean, it might some day may prove me wrong, but I've not had a client yet who has actually said, oh, well, watching some comedy hasn't worked, you know, just not from a therapeutic point of view, but just to sort of take your mind, because, you know, there's nothing worse than saying don't think about it and your mind will automatically think that, you know, it's a bit like I said, if I say to you, don't think about the pink elephant in the yellow field, you're automatically going to think about that. So it's almost as though you don't want to keep telling yourself, don't think about it because you will do it's just having a distraction that automatically distract you from, you know, going through all all these sorts of negative stuff.
[00:15:13] I mean, also going back to some of the things that I encourage about getting to know yourself, you know, look at what you've done in your life that you're really proud of. What was it that you did that excite, you know, that you were excited about?
[00:15:31] And you know, all those areas that you want to explore again or something new, something new that you you wanted you wanted to do.
[00:15:41] My eldest son, for example, who was just 15 at the time. He he gave me his old camera and I started photography. And I was really, really hot. And that was one of the things that took me out of myself. I would just go off and photograph anything and everything for, you know, for a few hours a week. So finding something, you know, it's like you say, like you walk in your neighbour's dog or me doing photography or what have you. Just doing things to push it, especially in the in the beginning when there's lots of stuff going on. You just take yourself out of it.
[00:16:23] I know another thing which my own identity in the past was which I was caught up in was what I wore. And certainly during the period of my marriage, my ex-husband hated my clothes and was very sort of almost dictatorial in terms of what was acceptable for me to wear. And I took great delight once he was out of my life in resurrecting my love of clothes. I didn't have to go out and buy all new. I had so many clothes in my wardrobe that I haven't worn for so long that I still loved, in the fact there is a whole article,on my website about a pink leather jacket which he would never let me wear out and about with him. And that pink leather jacket I think got worn for a month afterwards because it meant something to me. It was kind of my personal representation of freedom. Yeah.
[00:17:14] And I think that's really, really interesting. I can't relate to that personally because I had no attention paid to me at all. I could have walked in naked with, you know, of a shopping bag over my head.
[00:17:36] And I would have had absolutely zero reaction. But I think it's really important. You know, I remember reading that series about the pink leather jacket, which I thought was brilliant. But again, it was giving you your identity back, wasn't it?
[00:17:52] Exactly. It was it wasn't about the leather jacket per se. It was just the fact that I didn't have to think about what somebody else thought it was acceptable for me to wear.
[00:18:01] No, exactly. Because you might choice to wear it. And yes. Whoop. Right. Well, if nobody had ever seen a pink cow in their lives. That's fine. You know, I could still choose to wear the pink jacket.
[00:18:13] Yes, absolutely. And it was your choice and you were in control rather than it being somebody else's choice. And they're controlling you. Exactly. That's very powerful. Very powerful. And and again, these are these are situations that, you know, we don't realise until after the event. No. You know, we just put up with it, it's a bit, what happens is it's like water on a rock. At first, nothing. You know, you don't realise that, you know, the rock doesn't realise that it will eventually get worn away. But this is what happens in relationships when you know that it's like a niggling the whole time. And then all of a sudden, you know, when you think when you go back and think about what you've put up with or how you've been treated over those periods, it's almost like a sense of disbelief. But also, it's one of those situations where you can. It's like resurrection, you know, the Phoenix from the ashes. You can just get up and say, no, this is me now. And, you know, which is exactly what you did with your, you know, just wearing the jacket for a month.
[00:19:30] Yes. Not if it rained, though. Didn't want to get it spoiled. Only on sunny days. But there you go.
[00:19:38] So I mean, what advice What three top tips that you would give to women looking to find their sense of self again that they should address? Is there's an order of things that people should do?
[00:19:52] No, I don't think there's an order. But what I think is really important is that, first of all, to be able to get to know yourself is you really have to let go of what's gone, right, and that's you know, that can be easier said than done. But if you're hanging on to you know, I've known and I did it myself in the early days, I'll be honest with you, so I can speak from experience because you're thinking of what's gone on as soon as you wake up. You're thinking about it during the day and you're thinking about it when you go to bed at night. And there's all sorts of questions that, you know, you've put you continually asking yourself. And so when you're in that stage, it's really difficult to sort of think about yourself. So one of you know, I think it's really important to try and let go. It's impossible to, you know, initially to let go of everything, but to remove remove that sort of past as quickly as possible. And there are, you know, all sorts of ways of doing this.
[00:21:12] But it might be having a coach, it might be talking to a therapist. You know, there's lots of modalities out there that help with that. And then the other thing, the third thing. The second thing is to, you know, have a, what is it that really, really floats your boat? What what is it that you're interested in? Are you you know, are you a creative, therefore, you know, more academically inclined, et cetera. Was this something that you always wanted to do that you'd never got to do? And, you know, dont make sort of, you know, crazy decisions just because you can't think, you know, of, if anything, to do. I mean, the worst thing to do is to sort of not look after yourself because you can't be bothered. Because, you know, you're going through all of this grieving process. The most important thing is to find things to sort of uplift you.
[00:22:16] And then the third thing for me, which is really important, is this is the self care. Initially the self, Ceri, looking after yourself really, really important, because at the end of the day, the only person who's responsible for you is you in every single way for your health, for your happiness and everything else. You know, when when we actually give other people control for our own happiness or responsibility for our happiness, we're also giving them the control to make us unhappy.
[00:22:56] Yeah. But you said it really is taking that control back, isn't it? And link it to yourself, which can be scary cant it?
[00:23:03] Oh, for sure. For sure. Because, you know, when you've you know, when you when you've not been what I term independent, i.e. as a single person for a very long time, suddenly walking that path is very scary.
[00:23:23] Right. So, I mean, you mentioned that sometimes it's good to have the help of a coach or a therapist. How would you go about choosing one of those?
[00:23:33] Oh, that's really important because some of what I recommend is that the most important thing is rapport. So, you know, you can have friends who've said, I've seen x. They were fantastic. You know, by all means have a conversation with that person. And, you know, if you feel like you gel, then, you know, certainly use them.
[00:24:00] If you know, if you're not getting a good reaction, then don't.
[00:24:03] Even though they may have worked for a friend or or what have you. Doesn't necessarily mean they're going to work for you.
[00:24:11] And rapport is so, so important, because especially when you're going through the actual rollercoaster of a divorce, there's going to be a lot of personal things that you may want to talk about. And, you know, you want to talk to somebody about that who you you know, you feel like you can trust totally. And also, you feel comfortable talking about, you know, talking about those personal things, too. So I would interview certainly, you know, one, two, three therapists or coaches certainly yes. It's always good to have recommendations. But as I say, the fact that they the coach or therapist works for one person doesn't mean to say they're going to work for you.
[00:25:05] And I know that certainly in my local area the GP will also help to recommend people.
[00:25:13] Yes, yes. GPs, very good because a lot of a lot of people, people will go to their GP because the stress and anxiety of this emotional roller, you can have all sorts of physical and psychological effects. So from anxiety to stress, it's leading to insomnia and all all you know, I have clients who've all of a sudden have migraines have started or I had one lady, unfortunately, who had a hernia and there was no reason for it. And, you know, I. That's another thing that, you know, I talk about with with clients is the physiological effects of stress and anxiety. But, yes, I know there are quite a lot of doctors surgeries who are now because, you know, I think stress and anxiety are probably in the top five of conditions that people go and see their GP. They're now aligning themselves with complementary therapists and coaches to be able to help their patients without, you know, being on medication, which I'm sure most of you are not an advocate of.
[00:26:43] And also some workplaces, larger companies, they also have well-being programmes where they have coaches and therapists to support people as well.
[00:26:52] Yes. Yeah. I mean, I think it's fantastic that in inverted commas, mental health is not as taboo a subject as it was. And, you know, good employers are really, really active in looking after their employees. I mean, it's it's it's in the employer's interest at the end of the day. But the fact is, much, so much more employers now or have got their wellness centres. And, of course, you know, you can always go and I'm sure it would be confidential. I mean, I haven't been in the workplace as such as an employee for over 20 years. So I'm sort of not really up to speed with what the majority of employers are offering. But certainly if that's available, then why not make that the first port of call. And you offer services.
[00:27:50] And your services Marie. Are they all one to one or do you offer things online. Or is it feasible to do online support for something like this?
[00:27:58] Yeah, online support.
[00:28:00] Works really, really well. And most of the time mine are in group programs. What I do is offer, you know, various group programs and. So why I like about the group programs, is the small and intimate groups, and the members of the group can then make friends if you know they gel and they can support one another. So I know when I was there was a couple this year where they live fairly close to one another. And, you know, they are now friends and they'll go out for dinner or what have you. But even one to one online works works really well. So, you know, I think in this day and age, a very fe coaches or therapists are location based. So if people wanted to get in touch with you and in fact, the last.
[00:29:07] The last point you made works very well with our next episode. We're going to talk about what we hope to make friends and combat loneliness following divorce. But in the meantime, if people wanted to contact you direct, how would they find you?
[00:29:20] The best place to find these on my Web site, which is MarieFraser.com. So it's the usual www Marie Fraser dot com and there is a contact page there, or they can contact me via email at [email protected].
[00:29:42] That's great. Thanks so much for sharing all these tips in terms of getting to know yourself following divorce. And I hope that people will join us in the next episode, which is overcoming loneliness, which is again as it is a big thing, isn't it?When you're used to doing things as a couple. Yes. But thank you for joining me today. I've really enjoyed our chat and looking forward to the next one.
[00:30:07] Thank you. Ceri, I've really, really enjoyed today.
[00:30:14] Thank you for joining us today. Please do subscribe and also send the link to friends and be part of the pro age conversation. Life really is meant to be fabulous at every age, but especially after 50.
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Ceri Wheeldon of Fab after Fifty chats to make-up trainer Jo Jewitt of the Make-Up Training Company about how great Make Up can boost confidence over 50 and help midlife women look and feel fabulous.
In the past Jo has worked her magic on Princess Di, Bette Midler, Barbra Streisand and Madonna. Today Jo wants all women to have the tools and techniques to transform their make-up in just 5 minutes using just 9 products in 9 steps.
Jo is passionate about what she does - it's a lively conversation!!
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Episode transcript:
[00:00:04] I'm Ceri Wheeldon. And welcome to the Fab after Fifty podcast. Leading the pro age conversation, talking about all things life after 50.
[00:00:17] Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Fab after Fifty podcast. And I have with me today Jo-Anne Jewitt, make up trainer extraordinaire. Hello, Jo, and welcome to Fab up to 50.
[00:00:28] Hello. Hello. Great to be here talking to like minded people.
[00:00:33] Absolutely, we've had fabulous chats haven't we outside of this podcast and I think it's important to share your philosophy with our listeners and the readers of the website. But first of all, can you tell us a little bit about your own backgrounds in the makeup industry?
[00:00:49] Well, How long have you got? I know it's a long. It's a long. I am now 61. So it started when I was 19 and I had a broken heart. And I joined the promotion team for Helena Rubinstein, gone to the south of France to be a nanny, realized I hated kids. And then I came back with my tail between my legs, had a little jaunt in the police force and then realised I was going to be the worst policewoman that's ever been known to man. So I joined Rubenstein and I started travelling. And basically I used to sit with women for hours on end and everybody else would say buy two products and I'll give you a bathrobe and. And amazingly, everybody was just there would be queuing up to see me, which even then it was was quite a revelation. And it made me realise that actually people woould actually come in for advice. They didn't want a free bathrobe or, you know, three free products. They wanted. They wanted proper advice. So I started with that because I was very successful at what I did. I came to the attention of Liz Laverne, who was our director. I was being poached by various different people because obviously I was having humongous sales. And basically they said, what can we do to keep you? So I said, well, I'd like to be properly trained. So they sent me off to Fabourge St. Honore in Paris and I did my makeup training there. When I came back. They kind of exploited that. I know that's fine, but that's fine because I benefited from it.
[00:02:34] And then I used to do private one to ones with with elite clients, if you like. YOu've had some very elite clients haven't you? And I did. I did. And all of them were, you know, weren't really planned in that way. But I had the beautiful Princess Di who came to me because I'd done quite a few of her friends, what we used to call back in the day, Sloane Rangers and a few of her friends had already been to me. So she came for advice because she was getting engaged and she was wearing a blue suit. And we had a big fight about blue liner because at that point, all she did actually was have her eyelashes tinted navy, weirdly, But you know what I mean? And until we had this kind of big performance and we had a wonderful one to one, she was gorgeous, very, very, very shy, giggly young country girl who had never worn makeup. But cleverly, she actually realised that because of that point, she was being papped everywhere. And she realised that she didn't have a makeup artist permanently on her side. So she needed to learn how to use makeup for herself. And I like to think that that I taught her that. And we became quite good friends. We saw again each other. Unfortunately, I didn't realise who she was marrying at that point. And when she asked me about the wedding date, I said, oh, I'm not here. I mean, the wrong move. But good for Barbara Daley. But as well as the Princess I had Barbra Streisand, Bette Midler and Madonna. But Madonna was just same age as me.
[00:04:24] She was just really a little pop star. Really. I didn't think she was going to turn into the icon that she is today and that the two of us would be still some being aware, doing our thing at 61. But here we are. Madonna, she's the same age as me. But. And Princess ALEXANDRA, various different people. But also, you know, just normal people and, you know, great people that just because they were celebrities or celebrities, they're just women the same as you and me, you know, they just want to look their absolute best. You know, some of the people like Barbra Streisand, she wouldn't say she's got a kind of classic beauty look. But Crikey, she does know how to make the best of herself. And that was quite an inspiration as well, because that was good. And then I went off and I did some freelance stuff. And because we bought Armani perfume, I started doing the makeup for Armani. And it was all very exciting stuff. But it all kind of, for a little girl from Sunderland who just arrived in the in the big smoke. They all used to say, say something? And I'd say. What do you want me to say? Like, oh, listen to it, isn't she sweet because it was the days before Big Brother. So I was very, very unusual in the fact that I was from the Northeast, but it was great fun and and obviously it looks great on my portfolio. But once more, with feeling that just normal women who are the same as you and I, they just want to look like themselves but better.
[00:05:52] But when it comes to our age as sort of well, you're 61, I think I'll be 60 by the time this one goes oou. Don't be frightened, Ceri. It's fine. I'm not frightened. I'm not frightened I have so many other things going on. But when you get to be over 50, why do you think it's important for us to wear makeup and perhaps even sort of take a look at how we wear that makeup?
[00:06:17] Well I wrote my book when I was 50, I like most, not like most women. I retired and hung up my makeup brushes when I had my first child. Cameron, who is now 32. And and I you know, I put that to one side. I used to do occasional things. But when I reached 45, I think and I think this is a time when we all look in the mirror and then we realise that, you know, certainly at 50, I think you realise that things have changed and our beauty needs change. And, you know, all the kind of the look that I had when I was younger, I always took it for granted. And then I noticed, you know, the inevitable lines and wrinkles and dark shadows. And, you know, you're ever changing menopausal skin where you've got hair grown out of your chin instead of your eyebrows. And, you know, we've got the kind of ... My mother said to me, when you reach 50, things start to drop off. And I had no idea what she was talking about until I reached 50. And I think at that point, I realised that I needed to change my routine, my routine. You know, beauty needs have change. I needed to look after my skin more. You know, definitely I needed to use eye creams and just things were changing. And so at that point, I also obviously lots of my friends were the same age as me.
[00:07:52] And they were saying, you know, I just my face is completely you know, sometimes you just wake up and all of a sudden it's just there is n't. You raise your children, you've done your career. You've worked hard to, you know, maintain a mortgage and do all the things that you do in life, chips away at you. Really. And then I think women are eternal martyrs. You know, they are we are the ones who kind of give to everyone, your children, your businesses, your husband, like everything else. And we put ourselves really at the back of the list. And I think that's that when you do the you know, the children have grown up, they've gone off. And then you think, oh, my God, there's me. At that point, I think it's really important to revisit your face and really start thinking about grown up makeup and put your money towards that. But the thing that got me the most at that stage was where do you go? Does a discerning woman over 40 or 50 do go into a department store? I don't think so. I mean, I was that soldier back in the day, but 90 percent. Well, you've got to understand that beauty consultants work for a company. I've made sure that I'm not allegiant to any company. So I cherry pick exactly what I feel is right and I use what I absolutely know is right for my clients and you know, the people that I talk to.
[00:09:22] But I think, wait, where do you go? I mean, I don't want to go into a department store and talk to a young, albeit enthusiastic young girl, you know, who just looks as if she's been asleep on a mars bar. But I don't want to look like that. That's not the look that I'm trying to achieve. I just want to, you know, look, highlight the best that that that's there. You know, at this point in time, my lids have got heavier, my eyebrows gone white. You know, like I said, you've got the inevitable hair that comes out in the wrong place. Your eyebrows grow straight ahead instead of the behaving themselves and going the other way. You know that all of these things are a bit of a challenge. And that can be really depressing if you you know, if you just concentrate on them. A lot of the people that come to me are quite concerned about things like that. But, you know, the thing is, don't become a Botox junkie. That's not that's not going to work. I don't think, you know, the right makeup is the right way is the most powerful weapon for women our age. It's very important that we kind of revisit retire, you know, the blue eye shadow, the fuscia lips, the orange blusher. the over arched eyebrows that we did in the past, you know, and what we've got to do is kind of embrace a new way.
[00:10:44] So I developed the technique which I use all the time now, which is minimal, because, again, you know, I think that what we have got to understand, that we need things that are minimal and effortless. And, you know, we need to know what works and what doesn't. And I think that's that's key to everything. Nobody wants to be sitting in front of a mirror for three quarters of an hour, putting false eyelashes on and try to get that perfect eyeliner flick. You know, harsh lines have got to go. You know, all of the things that we used to get away with. You know, the lip liner in one colour and the lipstick in another and tentilly lip gloss. You know, it doesn't look right now. We can't do that. But we can capture a totally natural look and still and get that glow. But as I said, it's very important that the eyeliner, the harsh lines. You know, those those things have got to go. You've got to really start thinking about the technique is designed to contour your face and, you know, and actually shape your eye, you know, the heavy lid, if you just use a very small amount of matte taupe into the centre of the crease of your eye, that makes such a difference. It's quite it's quite extraordinary. And sometimes I even shock myself when I'm doing somebodies makeup. We both go back. It's emotional.
[00:12:14] It is. And I think also I mean, when we started wearing makeup in our teens. We wanted to look older, didn't we? We wanted to look more grown up. So we were that crazy.
[00:12:24] You know, when we were doing things to make us look older.
[00:12:26] If we don't change them, look, you know, we're not doing our current faces any justice, are we?
[00:12:34] Not at all. And I think this is the issue that, you know. If you don't change the way that you have used, make it. If you haven't changed your makeup in the last, say, 10 years, then you're not really doing your face justice. You know, we need to start thinking in terms of, like I said, just using contour powders and showing off your cheekbones and getting your colours right. You know, I mean, the colours are really important. The amount of people who at the minute, you know, the biggest thing I wish I could get hold of Theresa May. You're listening, Theresa. I'm available. She's my MP. So if you pay me a visit? Well, if you see her, just say Jo- wants to see her. Well next time I'm in Waitrose I'll Look out for her. Perfect. Do that. Just take her to one side one side. You might end up with a black eye yourself, but I don't think so. I don't think she is. No, I don't think she is aggressive in the slightest. She might have a few words for Boris, but never mind. The main thing is that you know that like this dark lipstick that when you've got thinning lips as you get older, you you know, I certainly know my lips seem to have just disappeared. So, you know, there are certain tricks that you can use. But one of the most important things is don't use really deep pink lipstick or red on thinning, ageing lips. It just doesn't work. You know, and like I said, what worked for us when we were kids just doesn't work anymore. So, you know, you've got to really look at that. And and and like I said, revisit your face and remember, you know, makeups an expression of who you are, not who you were.
[00:14:17] You said something earlier, which I thought was a lovely phrase, that great makeup can reclaim you. I love that. You mentioned that earlier.
[00:14:26] Yeah, well, it's true, isn't it? You know, I mean, the thing is that all of the things that we used to do when we were kids, it was it it was then we could get away with it. And as you rightly say, and you know, when we were younger, we used to put makeup on to try and look older. And and I think a lot of the time now, you know, my daughter is twenty three and she's 24 now. How did that happen? But she you know, she has her look and, you know, the Love Island kind of eyebrows and things like that. We've all gone through the gimmicks of makeup. And, you know, when we were kids, you know, it was teal eyeshadow and they're, you know, orange blusher and all these things that we developed basically to try to get people to buy another range of makeup. You'd have the spring colours and then the summer colours and then the autumn colours to try and make you buy so much stuff. And the tragedy is certainly at our age the more things that you buy. You know, when people come to my workshops or master classes, certainly if it's a one to one, I have a kind of end of the session where I go through people's makeup bags and say, right, you know, this is give that to someone you hate. And you know, and again, at that point, you have got to be brutal because great things happen that are very, very small makeup bag.
[00:16:00] You shouldn't have lots and lots of products, but you should have the right product and you should have the right colours that work for you. And I you know, I don't advocate lots and lots of colours. You're either one range or you're another range. And once you master that, because again, if if you start, it's like with skincare, you know, if people start to branch out onto loads and loads of stuff. I had somebody here on Friday who she literally trotted her makeup in , you know, and then went back and brought some more in. And it was quite sad because she had three different colours of touche eclat that she'd been sold. She'd had all these different palettes of, you know, 10 eye shadows and that she'd bought at great expense. And not one of the colours in the palette was right for it. And it felt awful. But, you know, I said, you really just got to ditch it. You've got to be brutal. Get rid of it all and start again and do it from a minimal point of view. You know, you needed certain colours, eyes, cheeks and lips matching and, you know, and very little foundation and no makeup. You know, these brushes and C.C. creams and b b creams and Double d creams. I mean, what is going on? Primers and serums. And you could go on for ever.
[00:17:25] And I think my biggest, biggest message is keep it simple. Keep it real. That you can do it and you can actually achieve it because buying this product, we're just feeding into the cosmetic companies greed and you know, they're more than happy for you to go on buying four different colours of touche eclat.
[00:17:47] But it's not going to give you the look that you want. It will never, ever do that. So it's very important that we are realistic about what what it is that we need. And I'm probably a bit of an anarchist. As regards makeup, that's somebody called me. It's good they call you something isn't it. As long as they are talking about you. That's still good.
[00:18:14] Maybe urban guerrilla of the cosmetic industry . You can be the expert in the Cape or something like that.
[00:18:22] Absolutely. I'd buy a cape and be a crusader. So, you have to be heather and berries and or peaches and cream. But with the new products that are out there I mean, I get sent them to review and I'm very happy to review them, I like playing with pots of stuff. But do we need to look at new formulations that are especially developed for mature or does the standard make up range still work for us?
[00:18:48] Well, again, I think, you know, I mean, there are so many different products that have been brought out onto the market all the time. And makeup is makeup. You know, there are certain ones that that are devised or designed around more mature skin. And, you know, that's all very well and good. And some of the things are really great. I'm sure that you've, you know, had things that you think are absolutely marvellous and then other things that, you know, in your heart are just a gimmick. It's whether, it's miss or miracle isn't net. You've got to kind of really use your common sense. And by the time we've got to 50 and certainly now that I'm 60, I have got a large amount of common sense. I can see through, you know, sales patter and I can see through the gimmicks that people put out. And the cosmetic industry is is world renowned for doing that. You know, there's always something incredible that's going to do everything that you wanted to do. But the most important thing is, like I said and what I do, because I think what I'm doing is bridging the gap in the makeup industry and certainly in the beauty industry, because it again, where do you go for honest advice? And this is the thing. You know, there's usually an angle, too. And, you know, don't get me wrong, I'm filming. As I explained to you, I'm going to be filming very soon and I'm going to do an online makeup course which people will have to pay for.
[00:20:25] So that's fine. But I'm not apologising for that. I think our age group would definitely pay to be taught how to use makeup. I don't use and I am certainly no supermodel, you know. I mean, at the end of the day, I think it's it's very difficult. Sometimes I look at the things that are on YouTube and I look at the things that are on Instagram and whatever else. And 90 percent of the women that are showing you these miraculous things, they're actually beautiful anyway, you know, so I'm not talking to the women that haven't got challenges, you know, aren't talking to the women who the people that come to me, you know, have got all of a sudden the their eyes, they are thinking in terms of, do I get an eye lift? Well, no. You can use makeup. It's it can have exactly the same effect without the dramatic cost, not only for your purse, but also, in my opinion, to you, to your face. You know, I had a melanoma in my eye and I had to get it cut out. And I've never been more terrified of anything in my life. And I can remember thinking, if women do this and pay for it just to get an eye lift, then that's wrong. You know, I mean, the makeup is it's so miraculous if it's used in the right way. And so that's that's what I'm trying to tell people.
[00:21:50] You don't have to be a Botox junkee. You don't have to go and get you know, I know you don't have to do surgery. You just need to really just look like yourself and then and embrace the way you look, because it's it's fine. You know, it's OK. We're none of us the 20 anymore. And that's good. You know, we can applaud that. And the fact that a lot of my friends have made it to this age. So, you know, at the end of the day, it's about embracing what you've got. I've earned my lines, crow's feet, you know, laughter lines. They to me, they're equal to a life well lived where I got, you know, the. Cause I've got heavy lids, I've got all of those things, and it would be very easy to get depressed about it, especially if you've been incredibly beautiful and then all of a sudden things start. As my mother would say, to drop off. But I think, you know, you've got to really just stop being positive about yourself. When I put my makeup on, you know, my spirits rise. I feel confident and I feel able to kind of, you know, feel the world. And it is quite miraculous. I feel better about myself. You know, I've got confidence and I'm back in the room. I'm 60, but that's fine. And then usually people saying you look you look really radiant today. Jo and I say, yes.
[00:23:20] And also, I live in a very little village in the middle of the peak district. So a lot of the time I walk around with no makeup on. And then when I do put it on, everybody is kind of taken aback. Yeah, in a good way and a good way.
[00:23:34] I mean, I mean, I never go out without makeup. That's just me. And I was reminded by our friend very recently and we've been friends since we were in our 20s. And her daughter wanted to go out somewhere in a hurry. And she said, oh, hang on, I just got to put my mascara and lipstick on. Why is that? Because, Ceri, I had said to her when I was like 24 years old or something. We were going somewhere and she was going to rush out without makeup and had it only takes five minutes to put this on. You'll feel better about yourself all day. And since then she's never left the house without mascara. She said just said that I can't because she knows that she would be like the wrath of Ceri. No, I can't say to Ceri that I left the house without my mascara on. I don't even remember that conversation? But she said she thinks that every time she picks up her mascara brush. That's the way to do it.
[00:24:27] Well, it's probably helped her through a life in the fact that she does probably realise that when she puts mascara on, all of a sudden her eyes come alive. You know, speaking as one who is like albino ish without makeup on, because I always remember when I was about, I don't know, 13, 14 discovering mascara. And it was a revelation. And I think that's when I fell in love with makeup, because I again, my mother said, I think our Jo-Anne's going to be very plain. Oh, that's awful! I know. Because even as a child, I was I've got white eyelashes, white eyebrows. And I'm, you know, kind of a very, very, you know, pasty faced person. So I suppose that's why I fell in love with makeup, because I realized the power of makeup even around about 15. But, you know, then I kind of reached my 20s and then we do all that kind of multicoloured stuff. And, you know, I mean, I used to go out and make something of Star Trek when I was 20, 22. And I can remember doing, you know, different makeup on, you know, Whitney Houston, when we all used to wear like try and get as many colours on your lids as we possibly could. But, you know, that was then and it was great fun. But this is now.
[00:25:48] And, you know, I think the biggest thing is trying to release ourselves from the gimmicks of what makeup was. And I think the game changes when you're 50, it really does. I don't want to say that you can't wear, you know, lots of makeup. Some people feel perfectly fine wearing large amounts of makeup. And, you know, I've just recently had the biggest one of the biggest tasks with the most lovely woman. But she had been wearing so much foundation for so long and she'd never changed her makeup for 30 years. And so and it was quite dramatic. You know, black eyeliner. It was very dramatic. And it she knew that she needed to change, but she really didn't have the confidence to actually let go. And and so obviously, she was going in still buying all of this stuff and the things that she was sold. Honestly, Ceri, don't go and see this person, this consultant, because she must have just thought she must be wearing a bottle of, you know, I wont name. foundation a week. And the problem was that underneath that, she actually has got the most beautiful skin and beautiful face. But this was a mask that she'd actually been using. And she knew she needed to change, but she did know where to go.
[00:27:25] And there isn't anywhere. So that that's where we come in with the makeup training company. Look there. Well, it's a fact. And, you know, that's why I started really, it was a mission. That's why I wrote the book initially. And so now hopefully, you know, we'll get the online course along. So my in my head, there'll be an online course. There'll be a book that people can read either hard copy or an e-book and then a makeup kit. And it's picking those colours again. And as you know, I have it in two colour schemes. So it's very, very simple to follow.
[00:28:03] Why two colour schemes?
[00:28:05] Well, again, it's the simplicity of it, really. And strangely enough, I did start you know, I realised that I needed to get a a range of makeup that makes sense to people, you know, that actually they can understand. So, you know, when you stop going into delving into, you know, all of the gimmicks that the companies put out, like I said, all these different season colours and everything else. People just want, you know, something a routine that is minimal. that's effortless, that they can actually go to and apply and they know immediately they're going to look brilliant. And so consequently, the main thing that I designed back then. Absolutely 100 percent I know it works now is if you've got blue eyes. The priority is to bring out the colour of your eyes. It's nothing to do with the outfit that you're wearing, because to me, with a make up range. The colours that you wear. Somebody was asking me, is it Colour Me Beautiful or something? No, it's not really. It's just being sensible about it. If you've got blue eyes, then if you use peach above the lashes, it brings out the blue in your eyes. So you use that. So it's peach above the lashes then bronzes, brown's creams, that kind of stuff. So whatever you choose on your eyes, you follow through on your cheeks and on your lips.
[00:29:36] So, you know, again, everybody needs to show off the cheekbones. Not like the Mars Bar. Look, I'm talking about, you know, just gently contouring your face. And there is a trick trick to that as well, which is, you know, you take it from the ear and push forward towards your nose. When we were kids, everybody used to just brush it back the way and then you get that big clump at the front of your face. Well, that's. We can't do that now. So you have to turn your face. It's very difficult to explain it without showing you. But anyway. So contouring your face and then a pop of like a coral blush and then a peachy, you know, soft, peachy coral lipstick. And once you actually as soon as you get to that final end where you put the lipstick on, it's like a revelation. Everybody is like, oh, my God, look at that. That's amazing. And then, you know, and the priority again is that you're able to do it yourself. When people come to me for a one to one, for instance, I do half of these and they do the other half, which is, you know, is a great way of doing it. If I do groups, it's great because everybody can see the colours being put on. And then, you know, you've got Heathers and Berries, which now if you've got green eyes, if you yet again back in the day we all used to put green eye shadow on.
[00:30:59] Well, if you think about it, if you're trying to show off an emerald, you'd never put it on a green background. So, you know, that doesn't work. So you need to wear something that completely contrasts with the green of your eyes. In which case you're talking about Heathers. No, I'm not talking about Plum here, because Plum has red in it. It has to be like a very soft heathers on your eyes and and and a kind of pink, shimmery pink above the lashes. That's the only place you put glitter. We have got to stop wearing any kind of glitter on the face or shimmer because shimmer highlights wrinkles. Remember that, if nothing else. So don't you know that above the lashes is a highlight? That's fine. So and then you follow through with the kind of contour again in more or less like a deep, plummy kind of contour powder and then a pink blush. Sometimes I use a one from clinic which looks absolutely, massively hugely bright pink. But when you put it on, it's amazing. It's actually really beautiful. And then a very soft pink lipstick. So, you know, again, eyes, cheeks and lips or matching.
[00:32:14] If you've got brown eyes, you know, the world is your hamster. You can get away with most things, to be quite frank. But I think at that point you've got to start looking at the colour of your skin. Normally with brown eyes, you'll either be more of a sallow skin or, you know, Asian, a woman of colour. That kind of thing. So and oriental, definitely.
[00:32:36] Because, we've got Jenny who are using the book, and Lauren who I use in the book, who Jenny's Chinese. So we used because she's got more of a sallow skin. They work beautifully because obviously they're just give back colour to a face. Yeah. And again, simplifying it down to what works for you and then sticking to it.
[00:33:02] And typically, if you were to say take say the peaches and cream makeup look, how many products would you expect somebody to have to buy to do that?
[00:33:13] Well, first of all, you need in the technique altogether, there are nine steps. So first of all, you've got to concealer stick, which you need as to cover up any redness, any broken beans. I've got broken veins at the front of my face.
[00:33:31] So you use and I used just bog standard Rimmel concealer stick, which works for me. Also, you need to use it as an eyeshadow base, although there are some really good ones, they usually really expensive and probably not worth paying for. I just use Rimmel concealer stick , Touche Eclat is a great thing to actually cover up any dark shadows and the smallest amount of foundation that you can possibly get away with and use it from the back of your hand and use your fingertip to actually press it on your face.
[00:34:04] No brushes are sponges because then you're going to get this kind of heavy makeup thing and makeup again can really highlight wrinkles. I'm sure you've seen it where people have had far too much foundation on and you can see it immediately because it just sinks into the lines. So you're just using it to kind of create a canvas, really? And then we need eyebrows are absolutely essential as we get older, as you and I both know, and it's again, getting that eyebrow shape is hugely important. So there are many different products, but I personally just use an eyebrow pencil and then use the brush to brush it out. And that works brilliantly well. Some people there are lots and lots of different eyebrow products out there now. The realisation that eyebrows are essential to your final look is pretty clear. See? And then you need really a quad. I would say four eye colours, one above the rushes, one below the brow and much taupe, which is absolutely essential to anybody which goes and it has to be matt. I didn't put my glasses on properly the other day and I was put my eye make up on , put the shimmer and even I was shocked. Oh, my God. The wrinkles. So definitely has to be matt. And you put that into the into the center of the eye, into the socket of the eye, and then brush it up to the brow and decide if you do nothing else.
[00:35:37] That is a really good thing to do. Just use the concealer effect as a base and then just brush that into the centre of the eye. Because we all need that definition, because as you get older, you know, we lose the definition in our eyes and then and then a bronzer. If you were going to get anything at all, then. But again, it has to be a matt no shimmer bronzer and not too orange either. Studio 10 do a really good one and Rimmel do a good one. It just needs to be used as a contour powder on you temples from your ear towards your nose, a little bit on your chin and a little bit on your nose. And that's the thing that gives you your face definition. And then a blush and lipstick. That's it. Mascara, please, yourself. You know, mascara is mascara. I don't know how people get too excited about mascara. I do particularly like a violet mascara from a YSL. They're all they do. And it has to be violet, not the plum. The plum makes you look as if you'd been bashed in the eye. The violet just is absolutely really pretty. But again, then that's it. Just keep to that. That's that's as much as you need. So it's kind of nine steps, nine products. That's it.
[00:36:58] And how long, if you're doing on yourself, should that take?
[00:37:03] If I'm doing it, say I'm doing some kind of talk and I know that people are going to be scrutinising my face and kind of looking for any anything wrong. She calls herself a makeup artist. Look at that. And then I will take probably about half an hour. If I'm just literally going out the shops or whatever, I can do my makeup in five minutes. If it's if it's more than that, my life, which is not worth while, my husband will be going off, for God's sake.
[00:37:37] When you know how to do it, it shouldn't take that long.
[00:37:41] No, it shouldn't at all. And I think if it does take I mean, if I'm really going for it, then I'll probably take, like I said, 20 minutes . But if if if I'm just literally getting ready to go to the pub or go shopping or something, then definitely five minutes. It takes time to get to that because obviously, you know, you need to start playing with Julia, who have just been explaining about it. I mean, this is a massive transition in her makeup. It's you know, it's taken it from the extreme to, you know, this minimal amount. And believe it or not, that that's difficult when you've been it's like anything if you've been doing the same thing for 30 years and then somebody says, actually, don't do that, do this. It's going to take a little while to start rethinking your regime and how you actually use it. But again, it just it works. And so as time goes on, I've got so many clients that come back to me and and, you know, see the most beautiful things to me, which is which is great, because at the end of the day, it can change your life. It's not just makeup, this stuff. You know, it make it how you feel about yourself, how you present yourself. The confidence that it gives you. Because, you know, we've all gone through. Like I said once more with feeling as we get older, we've all gone through life's challenges, haven't we? You know, we've all had to deal with. I'm trying not to swear because I don't know exactly. You know, well, you know, we've all had to deal with the things that go wrong in our lives. And at the end of the day, it chips away at you. And a lot of people that come to me, you know, I've had people that have come to me that got divorced.
[00:39:41] Their husbands run off with a younger model. You know, that old that old story or they've had bereavement in their lives. And, you know, or had illness. And, you know, to be honest with you, I've had all of them bot not actually gone through with the divorce. We got back together. But I you know, I mean, I've had emotional challenges, they really take a toll on you. And when things go wrong and things can happen in your life, it can actually affect how you feel about yourself. And that's wrong because, you know, we are all you know, we've all got that that young girl inside of us suddenly. You know, the carefree, you know, don't get going I may swear again. I don't give a shit. You know, the person who is a natural, carefree girl completely, completely at ease with yourself and able to cope with life. And I think this one of that one of the things that does happen, you know, not want to be too psychologically drawn into this, but is that your confidence is chipped and and, you know, the menopause. All of these things, your hormone imbalances, everything. It just it just kind of grab a hold of you. But we do have to stop all of that. And I think makeup does really play a role in how you feel about yourself. You know, I'm massively overweight. I've got about three strands of hair. It seems to have come off my head and come out in my chin. You know, there are certain things that I would love to change about myself. There are you know, I've had you know, this is the thing, but I'm absolutely fine.
[00:41:29] I put my makeup on and I know I look absolutely fine. And I can go out there and face the world. And I think for anybody who's listening to this, I you know, I am that soldier. We are those soldiers. We all feel like that, you know, anxiety grabs hold of you. You know, you start to lose belief in yourself. There are certain things that happen in your life that do that.
[00:41:54] But get a great, (I was going to swear again) Get a great set of makeup. Change the way you look. Not in a bad way. Just emphasise the beauty that is there because it is that it's in every single one of us. We just need to really come to terms with how things are changing because we're all in the same boat.
[00:42:19] You know, we all you know what? You know, as time goes on, these are the things that we're all facing. But, you know, like I said once more, we're feeling a lot of my friends haven't made it to 61. So let's not worry about, you know, don't sweat the small stuff. Just embrace what you what you are.
[00:42:38] Highlight the beauty that is there, because it is. And you know, and and, you know, again, just kind of celebrate your crow's feet in your life. Laughter lines. You know, like I said, it's a life well lived.
[00:42:53] Absolutely. So would you say those would be your three tips. . To embrace highlights and celebrate.
[00:43:01] Yes. Embrace, highlight and celebrate. That's a good way to put it. I like that. That's why you're good at what you do, because you can put these words in. No, I think that's a really good thing to put forward. And because, you know, again, once more, with feeling as we get older, it's a lot of women do feel and I'm talking. If you're feeling like that, whoever is listening to this, if there's anybody listening, you were there. Just start celebrating the fact that, you know, we're all beautiful and try to start thinking in terms of celebrating the fact that we are beautiful and highlight the best bets, the colour of your eyes, the shape of your face, the contour of your face, and never let your make up walk into a room before you do. If you're wearing too much makeup, you're masking yourself. And that's that's wrong. And if you haven't changed your makeup in the last ten years, start thinking about it because it doesn't suit you anymore. There are things out there and you need to start really rethinking. So if I was going to send a message, I would probably be that.
[00:44:08] So if people wanted to get in touch with you or find out about more more about what you do and your makeup techniques, how would they go about it?
[00:44:17] Well, I've got hoping that you'll put any kind of link, you know, if they want to contact me, that obviously there's the makeup training company website. And that does actually have, you know, training courses that I do, because obviously I do public ones, which, you know, we do. I'm doing one at HawCross Hall on Saturday. I do private one to ones. And I do private groups. I do corporate training. And I'm also doing some makeup courses for younger beauty therapists and beauty professionals that again, need to be taught how to address older skin because, you know, it's all great for a 23 year old, but to start looking. But if they start putting the makeup that they wear on me, I'm going to look ridiculous. So it's again, it's retraining the trainers, if you like. But in the grand scheme of things that we do, all of these things, hopefully in January next year, we'll get the online course available. And at that point, like I said, hoping that that will get more of the kind of coverage I want to be on the Lorraine show, I really fancy Lorraine.
[00:45:44] But I haven't been on her show, but I've met quite a few times and she's been lovely every single time.
[00:45:50] She she is lovely, I can say I did do Denise Robertson, who was on this morning, who unfortunately died, she's from Sunderland where I'm from. And I remember she came to me just to get some tips. And she actually did write a lovely piece to put on the back of my book. Yeah. With your book, Jo, because you've mentioned your book, but you haven't thought of what it's called or where we can find it. It's called The Beautiful Truth Makeup Made Easy. I'm not I don't sell it on online, actually. But if anybody wants to contact me, certainly they can that I can get one sent out. No problem whatsoever. And and, you know, generally, if people want to get in touch with me, they can get in touch with me through the website. I'm also on Instagram, Facebook Linkedin all of the above. And and, you know, get in touch. Happy to talk to anybody about anything. It's a mission that we're on. Hopefully we'll get the make up set. Hopefully we'll get the online academy going in or make up course going in January. But if anybody wants to come along to a one to one. Anyway, it's all out there. I'm here and ready to talk to anybody who needs me. That's for sure.
[00:47:17] Well, thank you so much for taking the time out today, sharing your tips and talking about how makeup can really, as you said, help us to see that great makeup, can help us to reclaim ourselves. And it shouldn't take that long or too many products. We're not looking at a massive investment either in terms of cost or time, are we?
[00:47:34] No, we're not. No, we're not. And, you know, the priority is keep the faith because it's all out there. All you've got to do is, you know, is learn how. And I suppose that's where we are bridging the gap in the makeup industry and the beauty industry as a whole. And don't spend too much. You just need to get the right product and remember it. It's the most powerful weapon, you know, to make you feel great.
[00:48:02] And if there's anybody feeling wretched out that you're not alone, you know, and it might not take might just take five, five, five minutes and nine products, just to give you that lift, it only has to be temporary, put a smile on your face and I guess walk out the door. Put that spring in your step, doesn't it really?
[00:48:18] Absolutely. It can change your life. Lots of people. And I'm not saying that in a you know, in a flippant way, because people have actually come back to me and said it has changed their life. And that is the reason why I continue to do what I do to hopefully inspire and give that knowledge out there, which is very important to all women. We've we've done our bit for King and Country. It's our time now.
[00:48:46] But I actually couldn't agree more. Thank you so much for joining us. We'll put all the links and details on the show notes that go along with this podcast. And thank you for doing this today. You know, maybe you can join us again with some some more tips, and especially when your you know, your course is online and available and and talk about that.
[00:49:08] Absolutely. That would be lovely, Ceri. It's lovely to speak to you. Great to talk to somebody who knows what I'm talking about. Thank you so much, Joe. Okay. All right. No worries. OK.
[00:49:23] Thank you for joining us today. Please do subscribe and also send the link to friends and be part of the pro age conversation. Life really is meant to be fabulous at every age, but especially after 50.
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Ceri Wheeldon of Fab after Fifty interviews Ntathu Allen of Yoga Inspires You about the benefits yoga and meditation can bring to midlife women.
We talk about the different types of yoga and the benefits
How to get started
Why you don't have to be 'bendy' to do yoga.
Some simple yoga and meditation exercises you can do straight away to feel calmer, less stressed and more centred.
How simple things such as brushing your teeth with the opposite hand can help you be more 'mindful'.
Helpful links to accompany this episode:
Free online mini course
https://meditation-for-beginners.teachable.com/p/relax-destress
Simple yoga poses (including the Mountain pose mentioned in the podcast.
https://ezinearticles.com/?Yoga-For-Beginners---Three-Basic-Yoga-Standing-Postures-to-Improve-Your-Concentration-and-Balance&id=1743815
Useful articles written by Ntathu on the Fab after Fifty website
https://www.fabafterfifty.co.uk/2014/06/30/three-quick-and-easy-yoga-breathing-exercises-to-quieten-your-mind/
https://www.fabafterfifty.co.uk/2014/05/12/3-ways-to-wake-up-with-a-smile-for-a-happier-you/
https://ezinearticles.com/?Yoga-For-Beginners---Three-Basic-Yoga-Standing-Postures-to-Improve-Your-Concentration-and-Balance&id=1743815
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Full episode transcript:
[00:00:04] I'm Ceri Wheeldon. Welcome to the Fab after Fifty podcast. Leading the pro age conversation, talking about all things life after 50.
[00:00:17] Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Fab after Fifty Podcast. I'm delighted to have with me today Ntathu Allen who is an author, yoga and meditation teacher and she focuses on working with working women who feel worn out, burnt out and stressed out and yet still push through. And Ntathu helps them to release, tension and worries, find calm and reconnect with themselves. And Ntathu is also a resident expert on the website. This podcast is a great opportunity for you to meet her. Hello Ntathu and welcome to Fab after 50.
[00:00:49] Hi Ceri. So thankful to be here on your show. Thank you,I'm looking forward to chatting with you today.
[00:00:56] And what are you going to be sharing with us?
[00:00:59] I'd like to share with you just some nuggets from yoga and meditation, really for simple practices and things we can do when, I think we all go through hard times. I know I have we've got means like yoga, meditation when things aren't working for you and we're struggling to find the way through. And I just find that through teaching, yoga and meditation these are really simple tools that I'd love to share with our readers and listeners that we can use anywhere, any time just to help you feel better, get a sense of calm, let go of tension and stress.
[00:01:38] And how does it actually work to help relieve that sense of stress? Because we all, I think especially in the Instagram era now, when we think of yoga, we have people sharing images of themselves in what would be impossible for me to do poses. And that tends to be what comes to mind now. And you think of yoga. Sort of, you know, these sort of people with legs that seem to go at almost the humanly impossible angles.
[00:02:05] Yes. Yeah. And that really makes me sad. The way yoga's betrayed now in the media, it's really portrayed for young, slim, white, women. And it's really not. Yoga is an ancient system of well-being. And traditionally, you know, you didn't have to do those poses to do yoga. We could just simply focus on our breath or even sitting up taller, relaxing your shoulders. For me, that's yoga. It's becoming aware of how you're feeling in that present moment. That's yoga. Meditation. It really isn't. It is and it isn't. There is an element of yoga where they do the head stand on a cliff. But that really isn't what yoga is about. It really isn't.
[00:02:57] I would love to dispel that myth. How do you think that's come about? I'm not quite sure. I'm not sure. I'm in the yoga industry myself, and it seems that this has crept in over the last four or five, 10 years.
[00:03:15] I know that when we first started working together, because obviously you've been providing that articles and tips on the website for quite some time now that on an off basis. But that said, it wasn't the focus, was it? When we first had our conversations, it's more about a sense of well-being, wasn't it? Yeah. And de -stressing.
[00:03:35] Yes. Yes. And I just don't know whether that's because it's become more commercial and. You know, it sells magazines, sells. Got pretty young girl on the cover doing a head stand on a cliff. That's more attractive than your average person sitting at a desk. Focusing on breathing. That's not very appealing to the masses.
[00:03:55] And I suppose also you don't need to go buy special sexy yoga outfits to do that.
[00:04:00] No, no, no. You don't need it.
[00:04:03] So what is a benefit fan of doing yoga the way that you you use it in your work?
[00:04:12] It's a sense of calm as we talk I can think of one of my students, I mean, for her. Her yoga lesson, she's a very busy woman head of a company, her yoga time, it's her time just to really unwind right to loosen the knots in her spine. She always says, and she's always amazed at how well she can sit at the end of the lesson. So for me, it's more about how you can use yoga meditation just to make you feel better, stronger, calmer.
[00:04:47] And to somebody starting out. How would they approach it? Is it difficult to start and sort of get into that meditation zone, so to speak?
[00:04:59] Yes, I think there's different ways. I can get phone calls from people because as yoga is now, There are so many styles of yoga. People get confused. They're confused about the types of yoga, they just don't know, do they want a power yoga, a slow pace yoga or hatha yoga. There are so many styles of yoga. I always say to myself, always say to student potential students. What are you looking for at a very like heart level? Are you looking for yoga to relieve stress? Are you looking to release back pain? Are you going for a breakup in a relationship? And do you just really want some sort of personal time, try and find out what you're looking for and then research it or try and talk to a yoga teacher and find out what style of yoga are they teaching. And again, always say for beginners particularly and exercise for years is to go to classes. Beginners class. That's good, too. Well, I could, generally say look for a hatha a yoga class that's geared for beginners. Right? I wouldn't suggest you might see some like a Ying . it's very good for beginners. But I find that just my own personal experience, it can be quite strenuous with some beginners. Things like power yoga, ashtanga yoga. Great. Again, I just find for someone who hasn't exercised for a long time, they may prefer a slower, gentler approach to learning how to yoga, how to do yoga.
[00:06:36] And I guess one of the things that might put people off. That's what people like me is. I've never been a particularly bendy person. And I think one of the perceptions that we have and maybe doesn't sort of equate to the meditation part of yoga, but certainly when you see the images now that we discuss that is being portrayed, do you think you have to be incredibly flexible and bendy to even think about participating?
[00:06:59] Yes.
[00:07:01] And again, the way I teach, the way I've been taught is to really listen to your body and to go at your own pace. For example, I teach chair yoga class at a local community center, local library and most of those students are at least 70 years old. Right. And there haven't got that sort of ability, they actually comes to yoga to improve, to strengthen their body, they always say work out what works best for your body. And I always demonstrate different levels of ability to flex the flexibility. And I constantly encourage the students to make sure they stick and start with what really is working with them right now, not when they were 20 years younger or something.
[00:07:53] And when somebody starts to do yoga. What benefit should they expect to be able to see and how quickly will they see Typically, the benefits.
[00:08:04] With yoga and breath work, I say you get instant benefits because you're working on the nervous system. So if you just take time. Even now, just to sit up taller.
[00:08:19] I'm consciously doing that- sitting up taller
[00:08:25] And just to softly squeeze your shoulder blades towards each other. Come up broad in the front of your chest and get a sense of low in your shoulders. Gain space between your ears and your shoulders. But it is a yoga pose. Right, and that is an instant benefit. You instantly feel taller. You've taken time to stop thinking about what's going on externally. You came back for yourself.
[00:08:54] Yoga.
[00:08:55] Well, I mean, it's a meditation. Again, I guess if I think of meditation years ago, you thought of sitting in a darkened room gazing at a candle. Yes. Is that still happening? Is that still the approach to meditation or how far have we moved on from that.
[00:09:16] It is an approach to meditation. And you can do that now. You could've done that thousands of years ago. I think there are very traditional meditation techniques which people have used. But what's happened over the years, it's been adapted to more like Western lifestyle. All right. So meditation. There are different schools of meditation and very popular one is mindfulness. And that is just basically what we did a few minutes ago taking time to focus on your posture, sitting up, tall and straight that is a mindfulness technique, you're taking time to tune in. So that's what's going on within your body.
[00:09:57] So that is a technique we can anyone can practice regardless of age level of flexibility or emotional state.
[00:10:06] It's just literally taking time just to focus, lower the shoulders, sit up to take a full breath in and out through the nose. And that's meditation. Take that time to be present with yourself.
[00:10:20] And if you have somebody that's got a really, really busy mind and I say this based on experience, I've had meditation apps and things in the past and they say it, you do this and they know talk me through it. But I find myself while I'm doing the meditation , working out what I need to put on my shopping list. Yes. Which is the idea of meditation at all?
[00:10:41] Oh, no. But then that's really good because part of the meditation practice. We have tools and techniques. But when we wander away from the breath, when we wander away from our points of focus and we notice, oh, the shopping. Are you meditating? That's your opportunity to say what am I thinking about? oh, yeah, my breath. And it's that moment of noticing that you strayed away from your point of concentration. If you've chosen it to be a practice, that's the meditation practice.
[00:11:11] And a little tip. I often suggest for beginners to help the quiet that busy mind to do some breathing exercises before you actually formally sit and do the meditation. Right.
[00:11:24] And we can do one now. Okay. Right now think this is going to have to wait. Okay.
[00:11:33] So very again, it's just allowing yourself to go with the flow in one level so a very simple. I call breathing awareness exercise, is a very simple one to do. Make sure you're sitting up nice and tall if you can, physically lengthen the spine. What we're going to do. We're going to breathe in through our nose. And what we're going to breathe out through our mouth. We're going to make a soft 'aaah' sound . I'll just do a quick demonstration for you. We're going to breathe in through our nose.
[00:12:07] Open your mouth and just make an 'aaaaaaaaaaaah'.
[00:12:15] And just do an aah sound. oh, so you want me to do that? I think I can let you do that one. I think my aaaah might not be quite so attractive as yours.
[00:12:25] You've had more practice. I have students at all at different levels and some people are very self-conscious because historically for women, we're not used to hearing a sound of our own voice. We're always told to speak quietly, don't shout. So it's very empowering for women just to have that sense of it's okay to make a loud sound to be allowed a loud sound. Its Okay.
[00:12:54] It does make sense, doesn't it does because I guess people do warm up exercises if they're going to do a run or a gym session, then I guess it makes sense, doesn't it? To do a warm-up exercise if you're going to meditate.
[00:13:08] Yes. I love that word warm up exercise because you've got the breath work for the mind. And again, if people struggle to sit still for meditation or the aches and pains in their body. So again, that's why you bring the yoga practice in because a particularly chair yoga.
[00:13:25] Can I? A simple thing to lose tension is just literally shake your hands. Just stay can flap your hands. And that's just a marvellous way to release tension.
[00:13:35] And you have to feel energised and can put your hands on your thighs or your tummy sit up tall and straight.
[00:13:44] Take that breath in and out and just do it again.
[00:13:48] A simple way to release tension before you meditate. If you get stiff ankles, or you've got stiff toes. Is to just literally massage the ball of your foot into the carpet. Although the ground is slightly pressing, your massaging your foot into the ground, pressing the heel down. Pressing the toes down. You can take the foot off the floor and just make big circles. Just make ankle circles.
[00:14:29] They're very popular, weren't they in the Edwardian era when ladies were concerned about how their ankles looked.
[00:14:38] Yes it helps. The lymph system helps the lymph to flow round round the body.If you've got swollen ankles swollen ankles or stiff ankles. Yeah, that's right. It's just really simple movements.
[00:14:50] Yes. I forgot about that
[00:14:54] Yes. I think they called it the turn of the ankle or something. I can't remember now. So when it comes to meditation you said you have the instant benefit. If somebody is going through a really stressful period, maybe it bereavement, divorce or really perhaps even they're just going to be an empty nester. Yes. How would you suggest that they sort of would approach this? Because maybe they're not really used to sort of taking time out for themselves or even investing any time in themselves.
[00:15:27] Yes. Yes.
[00:15:33] One of the tools that I like to suggest to students or listeners is when you wake up in the morning, we often wake up instantly jump onto our phones or instantly think about the day ahead. What gets us rushing busy mode? One thing that I always suggest is a really nice way to help you start the day feeling a bit positive is literally to lie on your bed and just to place one hand on your belly and one hand on your upper chest. And just take three breaths, three or four breaths. We really concentrate and breathe in from the belly.
[00:16:13] Breathe out.
[00:16:20] And again, take that full breath in. One, two, three. And breathe out.
[00:16:32] And just taking time to take those three breaths. First thing in the morning. You're kind of nourishing yourself, just putting yourself first, and does that help to centre you. Oh, yes. Yes. That means the individual,it helps to centre you, helps you to pause, stop the manic thoughts. Breathe in. Breathe out.
[00:17:08] Ankle circles. I'm just thinking, if you would say in a stressful situation over that, maybe it wouldn't work if you were in an office environment, if you were maybe at home and could you just go and lie on the bed and do that to sort of escape from it, what would you recommend? Something else?
[00:17:24] Once you've started your day, you can do that sitting on a chair. I often say to students before you sit down. Just take a moment just to check on your posture. Again, breaking that habit just slouched in the seat. You just take it when sitting on your settee, sit up place your hand on your belly. Just take a full breath in.
[00:17:52] And a full breath out.
[00:17:56] And for me, as I get older and recognising that it is taking those mindful many breaks during the day. If you're brushing your teeth its something we all brush our teeth twice a day again to be mindful, you know, make sure you put your feet, both feet facing forward with your face towards the sink. You know, sit up or stand up in a mountain pose , brush your teeth, really take time. We tend to brush our teeth on autopilot. And even just I'm right handed. But I started to brush my teeth with my left hand. That makes me more conscious. I have to think aboutit. Oh, yeah, brushing my teeth. Just be more mindful.
[00:18:42] And that also helps to develop better neural pathways. If you start doing things with opposite hands.
[00:18:49] That's right. Yes, it does. Breaks that habit. Yes. Yes.
[00:18:57] So I would say so those sort of things. It's not just the calming element, is it the other benefits that it brings to your I guess, your entire system as well?
[00:19:06] Yes, yes. Yes.
[00:19:08] It's a whole thing, particularly that's why I always suggest going for a beginners class really helps to kick in the nervous system. It power centres the nervous system, relaxing just part of the nervous system, taking time to take that slow breath. It just sends a signal to the brain. We're safe. It's okay. OK. Yes. So the more moments we can build into a day. It just helps to reduce the build up of stress.
[00:19:42] Now, I mean, I just find whenever I speak to you Ntathu, I always end up feeding calmer. At the end of the conversation, I don't know. It's I guess it's just the way you talk, your tone, the way the conversation flows, it automatically, I think calms my system down a difficult that you make me say, ah, you know, say 'aahs' in public, don't know. I really feel when I chat to you, I feel the stress sort of know the stress levels definitely decline.
[00:20:13] Thank you.
[00:20:15] And part of that is because we're talking about being calm and we're really we're being mindful. But I guess also I kind of like train. I practice breathing. Even though we're talking, I'm subconsciously now making sure that I'm sitting upright and I'm breathing deeply and fully.
[00:20:43] One key thing I find curious is that I guess through history, we've almost forgotten how to breathe properly. You'd think that would be fairly fundamental, wouldn't you?
[00:20:53] Yeah, I'm not quite sure why we've forgotten. That's a really good question. But yes, we have. It's something we just take for granted. And I know once one of my teachers actually saying to me sometimes we get stuck in trauma from a young age and he might have had the experience we've had for gosh, your breath and hold your breath and subconsciously that pattern becomes your way of being your way of protecting and keeping yourself safe. You constantly hold your breath just in case there's some danger happening around the corner. And it is a lot of yoga is really unlearning if really if you look at a baby or toddler sitting they are sitting correctly. They just move more easily.Something that comes to mind, when I was on the train the other day. And there's like a family and the parents were sitting back as adults do slouched in the chair and their son, he was two or three, yet he was sitting upright and he was holding the pole. So he was actually quite secure because his body, this pole was supporting him. But the parents were saying, no, sit back. You got to sit back. And in that minute, I just watched him siting back, his whole frame. Everything just collapsed. And I'm thinking that's the message. We've been told that to sit back and relax into our chair, Yes, it's setting that pattern that our body cant supports us. Our bodies. We do sit up and it's one of the things that really teach in my chair yoga to my elders is to sit up is to actually use your bones to, you know, to support you generally speaking because that's what the spine was designed to do. Yeah.
[00:22:54] It's basically it's unlearning bad habits and replacing them with good ones.
[00:22:58] It is. It is. Yes. But it's also been aware of what's going on. Because we're so used to standing anyhow when we do stand in a mountain pose it feels good. It feels good. So what is the mountain pose? So it's one of the foundational standing poses in yoga. Okay. It's a case of really standing, not rigid, but stand in the way that your ankle, your knee, your hip, your hip, your shoulders and your ears are all kind of aligned. Right. Things that I think in the old days, olden days, you had like a plumb line. So it's just making sure that you're standing correctly. It's a wonderful foundation pose in yoga. the mountain pose. OK. And I'm happy to. In the link, I can always send a description. How to get into a mountain pose if that would be helpful. Oh, that be really helpful. We should put it photograph or something. Yeah. It can be added to the podcast on the Fab after Fifty website, I don't think it would translate to itunes, but we've certainly put that on the Fab after Fifty website alongside the recording. It can be very helpful for people like. Great. Thank you. Yes. So three tips then for anybody that wants to get started. That hasn't happened to have exercised recently and really doesn't know anything about t yoga or meditation.
[00:24:27] I would say is to breathe. And again, I can say I'm happy to put a link in the show notes. We can just put a link. Also, a really simple breathing exercise. That would be lovely. It's just to breathe. The shoulders and the smile. And if you could just do those three things, when you wake up, when you make a cup of tea, when you're brushing your teeth, the full breath in, lower the shoulders, breathe and smile. You're halfway there. You're halfway there. Yeah. And it sounds incredibly simple and easy to do. That's yoga. Really is. It really is. But it's just because we've got all these other kind of myths and misconceptions. You've got to be bendy, have fancy clothes. Okay. There is a market for it does it's nice to have, you know, yoga pants, which let your body breathe, but it's not essential. It really is. It's a simple things in life, which are often the things we think are harder. But it really is simple. It is. And it's just know that you can do it. You know, you have a right to be in a yoga studio. No matter your age, shaoe or colour you are you've got a right to be there.
[00:25:44] And so how can people get hold of you? I mean, obviously, you give classes. You have one on one clients. Do you do anything online as well for people that perhaps don't live locally?
[00:25:56] I've just recently launched a free seven day mini course. And it's literally seven modules and it's is something we've spoken about in our chat today. It's really simple. Got the aaah breath in there to do in the comfort of your own home. It's just very simple. Two minute videos of simple tips with some techniques you can do anywhere, anytime to relax the stress, unwind and become calmer. And that's on. I can send you the link to the website for that. That would be lovely.
[00:26:30] And do have another your own Web site if people just want general information.
[00:26:34] Oh, yes. That's www.yogainspires.co.uk. And on the web site there's lots of blogs, videos and links to my books as well.
[00:26:50] And also there are articles on the Fab after Fifty 50 website, that you've kindly contributed over the years and we're going to be adding more in the coming weeks and months. Yes. Yes. Well, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm sure now we have lots of lot less stressed, calmer listeners than we had at the beginning of the program. And I'm so delighted to have you back as my guest and also to welcome you back as one of our resident experts.
[00:27:20] Thank you. I'm so glad. Yeah, I'm just glad that it's all happening. It's lovely to get the word out and just to remind people that your breath is always going to be there. You always sit up taller or stretching your body in some way. You feel better. Yes.
[00:27:36] I think we need an app every 30 minutes or so. Just to sit up taller with you saying it every time you said that I actually sat up taller and flopped in between. But thank you so much for joining me today, and I look forward to sharing your tips as you inspire us with your yoga moving forward.
[00:27:59] Thank you. It's wonderful. Take care, my darling. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you.
[00:28:08] Thank you for joining us today. Please do subscribe and also send the link to your friends and be part of the pro age conversation. Life really is meant to be fabulous at every age, but especially after 50.
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Ceri Wheeldon of Fab after Fifty interviews mind and body expert Susan Scott , author of the book Life Force.
In this episode Susan talks about why we feel constantly tired
The role technology plays in ongoing fatigue
How we can best avoid stress
How we can create more energy
How to create a more positive mindset
The role of diet and exercise in creating more energy and balance in life
3 top tips to improve energy
----more----
Read Full Transcript:
Full episode transcript : Interview with Mind and Body Expert Susan Scott on How to Have More Energy and Improve your Work Life Balance[00:00:04] I'm Ceri Wheeldon. Welcome to the Fab after Fifty podcast. Leading the pro age conversation, talking about all things life after 50.
[00:00:17] Hello and welcome to this week's podcast. And I'm delighted to have with me today Susan Scott. Now, Susan Scott is a mind and body expert, a professionally trained nutritionist and psychologist, and she's also the author of two best selling books, How to Prevent Burnout and How to Have an Outstanding Career. And her latest book is called Life Force. Hello, Susan. Welcome to Fab after 50. Hello, Ceri. And thank you for asking me to join you now. Why Life Force? I know this your latest book. You sent me notes through ahead of today's conversation. I was absolutely astounded to read that one in five people in the UK reportedly feel tired all of the time. Why is that?
[00:00:59] I know. I know. I mean, it's quite shocking. And actually, I'd even suggest it's more than that. It's I think it's an awful lot about the life that we're living at the moment. We're living in this world and always on the pace of life is growing at a phenomenal rate. We're working longer hours. We're cutting back on recreation time. More importantly, we're cutting back on me time because we just want to keep doing everything. And it's taking its toll now.
[00:01:28] Does Technology play a part in that? I mean, I know that when I was certainly I would say at the peak of my headhunting career, we weren't expected to be on 24/7. If I travelled it on the train. That was my thinking time. Whereas now I'm on the train, I'm there with my smartphone catching up on social media and emails on the go. So you never really switch off.
[00:01:53] But the thing about technology now is it's broken down all the boundaries. So one of the things people often ask me or my workshops is how do I get my work life balance? And actually, I'd say it doesn't even exist anymore. It's about life balance because technology means we're accessible all the time. But so is work accessible all the time. So we keep dipping in and out. I mean, I would get a train at 7:00 in the morning into London. And people will be on that train on their laptops, working, trying to get on top of it. And they're doing the same on the way home. So, in fact, rather than saying, oh, they're spending eight, nine hours of work, they're spending more like ten, eleven hours at work, actually. So it is it is contributing significantly to this feeling tired all the time. And what's exacerbating that is the stress that's being built up around it. The chronic stress of actually dealing with it for your body it's almost like being in constant fight or flight. And that's exhausting.
[00:02:55] And I don't know about, you know, the people that you have coming through as you or your clients or through your workshops. But I know if I consciously take a day off and switch a laptop off, the phone off, et cetera. I feel so guilty. I did that recently as I was so exhausted that I actually need to clear my head and I just need my space. I had day in the sunshine, but then I feel really guilty afterwards for having taken that time out.
[00:03:21] Ceri, you mustn't feel guilty you've got to be kind to yourself. And I think that almost is a mantra. Be kind to yourself, because if you're not kind to yourself, you're no good to anyone. And when I mentioned about work life balance it doesn't exist anymore. And it's all about life balance. It's actually about activity and recovery. So it's doing all you need to do. That is fine, but you've got to take those moments to recover. And it's something that will genuinely recharge you. So not necessarily coming home, throwing yourself in a chair and putting soap operas on all evening if you're still working away in your mind on the issues that have gone on through the day but not recharging you, you need to do something that completely distracts you. So never feel guilty if you had a day off and you were doing something fabulous. That is the best thing you can do.
[00:04:14] And I think that in the summertime, I don't know how other people respond to this, but when it's lighter in the evenings, rather than switch the TV on or catch up with social media in the summertime, I have to water all my plants. But I look forward to that time with my watering can going around the garden watering my plants because it does force you to switch off. The plants will wither if you don't do it. I will take that time out and as my gardener reminded me today. Water your plants. You have to do it, don't you?
[00:04:44] You do. You do. And again, it's time out for you. And you're taking in the beauty. You're stimulating your senses. It has such a positive effect on your mindset and your overall health. Oh a couple of years ago, my daughter got married.
[00:05:01] An incredibly exciting time. But then she asked me to do her flowers in the middle of a heat wave and just going out every evening watering these flowers was wonderful. It reminded me actually about work life balance and about getting a balance. When I come home from work as well. So, yeah, get out more to them. There's a lot more benefits to you than just the plants and this sort of thing that you would cover in your book. Yes. So I think when we're looking at energy and just your whole being, we hear so often the energy comes from eating the right things. Sleeping well and from exercising and absolutely it does. But also, it comes from your mental attitude and about thinking positively, having a purpose in life, but also managing all those stresses that go on around you. It's something I call balance. So all of that is going to be really important if you want to actually really live a life long term that's full of energy and vitality.
[00:06:10] How do you maintain that positive mindset? Do those things? I mean, I know that I have some friends who have difficult things going on in their life and they are incredibly positive despite all of that. But others, you would think, seemingly have sort of a wonderful life. And they're the ones that get really depressed and upset over little things.
[00:06:32] Yeah, I know exactly where you're coming from. We are human. And part of our human makeup is that we're going to look to the negative. It's about our survival. It's no good going. Oh, it'll all be alright when historically we would have been facing the saber tooth tiger. So naturally our minds will look to the negative. The problem now is that our minds can't distinguish what's definitely life threatening to us. And what really is just an annoyance maybe at the time. You know, we're triggering those stress responses for all sorts of things that really we don't need to. So we have to make a conscious effort to retrain our minds to be more positive. So doing something like waking up in the morning and training yourself to think of something positive as your own first thought, or even as you go to bed at night keeping a record of, say, three things that happen that day that you're really grateful for. There's so much evidence now coming through that saying that starts to train the mind, to start to think more positively if you think more positively. You have you're almost more energized because you're taking a much brighter outlook on life.
[00:07:52] Is that something a lot of people talk about. Your vibration rate affects your thoughts. Is that a factor? Positive thinking.
[00:08:02] Yes. Yes. And I think also within a sort of thinking about the ratio of it, what they're recommending is that if every one negative thought you should try to have three or possibly four positive thoughts. So if you catch yourself thinking negatively about something, try and turn it round, try to reframe it into something positive, because that will help you find your way out of what could be a difficult situation that you are thinking negatively and maybe your mood is dropping around it. So make that switch, what we call reframing from the negative to the positive and try and find all positives for that one negative.
[00:08:44] Right. And you will see much of both positive thinking. You've talked about exercise, and people talk about nutrition. Are there other specific things we should be doing exercise wise, nutrition wise, in order to have more energy as well.
[00:08:57] Well, I think definitely as you move into the over 50 age group, your demand for exercise is going to change. And what you're going to find is that you need to do more resistance, are more stretching exercises. A couple of years ago, I started doing yoga because I felt as if I was shriveling up, you know, everything. I wake up in the morning and I would very tentatively walk to the bathroom because my feet felt tight. My legs felt tight. And I found yoga just completely transformed that. But then the next thing I noticed was the muscle wastage. My arms were starting to change. So resistance training as well. I have a pilates reformer machine, which is one that has a platform which moves. And it has sort of elastic bands on it, I'm able to actually to get some sort of body resistance and be able to develop those muscles further. So yeah, we do have to start thinking about how exercise in a different way. And the third thing I do is. Dancing, because I think is so amazing for your mind as well and the camaraderie you get amongst friends and the laughter again is something that really puts your energy into setting.
[00:10:13] I was doing that classes, Fitsteps classes . That's what I do. They put a change of time and venue for the class. I can't quite get to, I have to find another one to go to. And they just used to laugh at me. I was very lucky. I did mine with Ian Waite when he first started, and he just just laughed at me because I have no sense of direction at all. And he'd say, turn right, and I'd turn left. And after about I don't know how long I've been going and I actually didn't fall over or didn't bump into anyone in one class. He said Ceri, you've got it. It was fun and nobody seemed to mind, thy used to position me where I could do the least amount of damage. To be fair. Yeah. Yes. But I loved it.
[00:10:58] It's wonderful. I've done Ian's classes as well in Wokingham. And they're so much fun. They really are. And now every week I will make sure I don't miss my fitsteps. I'm really fortunate that I've got an award winning teacher here and it's just such fun. And I think it brings everything together. And I know I think sometime last year there was a program on television with Angela Rippon and she put dancing as one of the best things you can do to keep your mind alert and to ward off all these sort of aging problems that we can see facing.
[00:11:34] I saw something on the news clip the other day, I don't know if you saw it, but they were saying that they were helping people with early stages of Alzheimer's do ballet classes. And and they found it helped to develop new neural pathways.
[00:11:52] Yes. And that's and that's what you're trying to do when you think positively as well. You're creating a new neural pathway. So it's just the same with the dancing. It's almost as if the muscle memory that you're building up talks to your brain as well.
[00:12:07] It's really powerful and nutrition as well, because if you've touched on exercise and positive thinking, what specific foods should we be building into our diet at this stage of our lives to have more energy now?
[00:12:21] Well, I think the sort of new nutrients we really need are things like vitamin D, because low vitamin D is connected with so many health issues, particularly things like autoimmune conditions. So one that I struggle with is an under active thyroid. And are they they found quite a connection now between low vitamin D and an autoimmune condition. So vitamin D you'll get that from as well as the wonderful sunshine. People may have got it over the weekend with this wonderful weather, but also from things like oily fish from dairy products, vitamin B12, as we age, we don't produce as much stomach acid and other enzymes in our stomachs that help us break food down and help us absorb it. One of the ones that struggles is vitamin B 12 and that's really connected with your energy. So eating more foods that are high and B 12 is going to be important and that will be things like whole grains. So having whole wheat bread or whole wheat pasta or whole rice, whole grain rice, not anything that's beige that has not been bleached out because it's actually in the husk of all these grains that you get these wonderful nutrients as well as zinc, which is really important for the stomach as well. And along with that protein and it's protein, you really need to counteract the muscle wastage. So we often think of having, say, a protein shake is something that a bodybuilder would have. But actually, as you move over into that sort of magic decades of over 50, then protein becomes really important as well.
[00:14:13] It also helps the brain because a lot of the amino acids in protein are things that are going to help develop dopamine, serotonin. So all those neurotransmitters in the brain that are important for our memory, for happiness, for mood, for feeling great about life, it will help all those as well. So if we have a balanced diet, is there a need to take supplements as well, I'm much more in favour of trying to get it naturally. I really am now a multi vitamin I think can help. I do take one. But I'm much more in favour of eating more natural foods. And we talk we so much about the Mediterranean diet, there is an enormous amount of research that does say the Mediterranean diet is really good for you and the Mediterranean diet is about having good proteins. So whether that be from chicken, turkey, lots of fish, getting it through beans and lentils, nuts and seeds, good oils as well, olive oils, all of this fruit, vegetables, eating things and their natural state, that's very wholesome. It doesn't have to be difficult to cook these foods, but they are important. They will give you the absolute basis that's going to give you all the nutrients you need to actually create energy in your cells in the first place. So, yeah, think Mediterranean, forget all the other faddy diets that are going on around you. The one I would always recommend is the Mediterranean diet, and that's sort of overall energy.
[00:16:01] There are people out there that have an afternoon slump. There's anything specific they can do for that. Yeah. It's interesting actually, because the power nap is a topic that's being talked a lot about at the moment.
[00:16:16] The idea is with a power nap is that you have just a very short sleep. So 10 to 20 minutes in the afternoon. It could be that actually you just sit close your eyes and just relax in that time, maybe listen to some music or maybe you will actually go off to sleep. But if you just sleep for that short amount of time, you shouldn't wake up feeling groggy because you haven't gone into one of the sort of the deep phases of sleep. You go for any longer than a half an hour. You're more likely then to feel groggy when you wake up. So a power nap can be really helpful. But I would put a caveat that in our sleep patterns do change when we start getting older. And if you find yourself not sleeping as well at night, be very careful about trying to top it up during the day because you may find that have a knock on effect of you sleeping even worse at night. So you do need to find the balance. And if anything, if you're not sleeping well at night, try to change the time. Maybe you go to bed, try and change, make sure that your room is quiet, that it is cool, all the things that are going to help you to sleep better. Try that first and then look to seeing whether a power nap may work for you, but without altering your nighttime sleep too much because it can have a detrimental effect.
[00:17:43] Which would be your three top tips that you would suggest to people to actually help improve their energy overall.
[00:17:53] Yeah. Well, I mean, we've talked about food and dieting so much. But, you know, one of the most important things is to stay hydrated. Right. People do not drink enough water. And I see this over and over again. I actually see the younger generation drinking much more water than a more mature generation now. I recommend have a pint glass of water by you and just be sipping that and then topping it up again during the day because the brain is actually 73 percent water. So if you get dehydrated, that's why your energy drops. That's why you can't think straight. That's why it's struggling to remember something and concentrate and focus. So definitely stay well hydrated. Get out and have a walk in the morning light if you have a walk in the morning light that actually triggers the production of serotonin. Now, serotonin is the happy hormone that makes you feel good, makes you feel bright and happy. The great thing about it is in the evening it's actually converted into melatonin and that's the sleep hormone. So spending lots of time inside, behind glass, even if you can see daylight is not going to trigger that serotonin in the first place. So get out and have a good 20, 30 minute walk each day. And you're almost doing two things that you're still doing some exercise, but you're also helping your sleep patterns as well. And the third thing that I think is really important to people is be curious. I also think we're so busy. We're sort of losing our curiosity, ask questions, listen to things like podcasts or TED talks. Just find things that will stimulate your mind because that's going to really help your energy. And that will come from you having this curiosity of the world, of everything going on, and it will start to trigger a lot more. That will give you a sense of purpose.
[00:20:03] Thank you so much for sharing all of us today, Susan. Now, apart from buying your book, which we can put a link to in this podcast, how can people get in touch with you?
[00:20:15] Well, firstly, there's my Web site, which is www.susanscott.co.uk And there's lots and lots of information on that website with links to all sorts of things and tips. My top ten tips on various topics around nutrition, the mind, health, lots there for you. I also have two Instagram accounts and one of them is called the Energy Aunt. And the second one is called Age of Energy. And I'm always very happy as well to talk at events. so any speaking on any of the topics that you can see related on on my Web site or my Instagram accounts.
[00:21:01] Well, thank you so much for taking the time out to talk to us today. Really appreciate it. And look forward to the feedback on your tips from very energetic listeners. Oh, Ceri, thank you so much for inviting me. And I love talking to you. Thank you.
[00:21:23] Thank you for joining us today. Please do subscribe and also send the link to friends and be part of the pro-age conversation. Life really is meant to be fabulous at every age, but especially after 50.
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Ceri Wheeldon of Fab after Fifty interview Helen Matthews who left corporate life to live her dream of becoming a successful novelist.
In this podcast Helen talks about how she transitioned from full time employment to writing for a living and the issues she had to address
How she came up with the idea for her first book which involved intensive research into the topic of human trafficking .
Having the confidence to base her second novel, Lies Behind the Ruin on elements of her own experience
How characters develop and ‘speak’ to the writer
Topics brought to life in her novel – various types of deceit in relationships – including financial deceit and the impact that can have on a relationship
3 tips for transitioning from corporate life to writing – and still being able to pay the bills!
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Full transcript of episode[00:00:04] I'm Ceri Wheeldon and welcome to the Fab after Fifty podcast. Leading the pro age conversation, talking about all things life after 50.
[00:00:18] Hello and welcome to this week's Fab after Fifty podcast. And I'm very pleased to have with me today Helen Matthews.
[00:00:25] Now, Helen is a published author and she has just published her second book, Life Behind the Ruin. Hello, Helen. Thank you for joining us on Fab After Fifty. Hello, Ceri. Thanks for inviting me. Now, you're a relatively recent published author, aren't you? This is this isn't your first career, is it?
[00:00:45] No. I had to battle my way through a first career and growing children and all those kinds of things until I was able to take a bit more time and focus on what I wanted to do myself.
[00:00:58] Have you always had a love of writing, though?
[00:01:02] Yes. I'm one of those people that's been writing ever since I could hold a pen while I wrote all through my childhood and sometimes I entered competitions or had a few things published in magazines for younger women. And then I carried on through my early part of my working life, writing short stories with moderate success, not very much. And then as I got more embroiled in my corporate career, I found it more difficult to write fiction. So I switched from my leisure interests to writing articles, and I had some published in mother and baby family and lifestyle magazines. And then on the BBC, I did a couple of columns for something John Peel used to run called Home Soon.
[00:01:49] And what in terms of your corporate career, what were you doing there? What what was your main role?
[00:01:56] Well, I sort of transitioned through a few different things. So I started off working for the British Council thinking I have a glamorous, sort of quaint diplomatic career. But I soon realised that I needed to do something that was a little bit more financially stable. So I went into the energy industry and I worked in internal consultancy. Then I worked for a bit in oil and gas. I did alright in corporate management. And then I went into HR employee benefits. But very, very different then to sitting writing. Yes. And of course, the trouble with that is that it demands a certain kind of writing for your writing and your career, but you're writing reports and analysis and financial papers for the board and that does take you away from writing in a creative fiction way.
[00:02:51] It is different, isn't it? I mean, I found that when I started Fab after Fifty, I had to write for people to read and hopefully enjoy. Whereas in my career, I was a head hunter. I'd be writing reports on candidates that I'd interviewed and summaries of. No. In terms of how they wold fit into teams and things. But then you approach it in a very different way. Are you would use different language. It's more formal.
[00:03:15] Exactly. And there are certain boxes that you've got to tick, you know, and if you're writing something that needs to be very precise, you can't introduce any colour into the language. You know you find your writing stocks go a little bit dead and words dont dance from the page. No that's what I found that would have transferred over into my attempts at writing, which I would do in the evenings and weekends.
[00:03:40] People used to say to me, I don't know probably that what you're used to writing. I was but not used to writing in that way.
[00:03:48] Yes. I'm glad. I'm glad you said that. Actually, because I don't know whether people really realise because, you know, as I changed my career, as I came out of the corporate world, it took me a few passes to get to the point where I could really let it flow and write fiction again. And along the way, I could have done things like copywriting, though I did some copywriting where I would write about the things I knew from my corporate life, like employee benefits and pensions, for example, happened.
[00:04:15] Not something we want to take to take to bed and read is it. It might send you to sleep, which could be a good thing.
[00:04:22] But if you can write something that's interesting for people about a pension for example, then there's a good chance you might be able to write something interesting when you turn to fiction. Well, that's what I hope.
[00:04:33] And I have to say, I've read your second book. I haven't read your first book, but I've barely read the second book, which I have really enjoyed and I related to it a lot of, it's based in France, isn't it? So I can certainly relate to that, having spent quite a lot of time than myself.
[00:04:48] Yes, that's right. Yes. It sounds like you might have had some kind of similar experience to me. Falling in love with a, In our case, dilapidated, tumbled down property and then deciding, you know, it would be easy to do it up.
[00:05:01] And of course, it isn't as easy as it seems. Is it really? But what was the inspiration behind the book?
[00:05:09] Well, in my first book, which I think we have, we mentioned maybe later I'd written about something that was way outside my own experience that I had to research very thoroughly. And then with this new book, when I came to write it, I thought, I feel confident enough now to start drawing, drawing on some of what I know. You know, just write what you know that writers are often told to do. So I did have the starting premise or a starting location, the experience that we had in France where we impulse bought our property. It was very, very cheap at the time. And it was literally a case of us standing at the ATM cash machine drawing out enough money for the 10 per cent deposit because it was so small. It wasn't you know, I mean, if people ever want to imagine it, it wasn't like one of these lovely mansions that you see. It really was a tumbledown farm building.
[00:06:02] Well, now all we've done the chateau then. No, no, no, no.
[00:06:06] There was there in the village, but we certainly didn't live in it.
[00:06:11] So. So you drew it, so that was that sort of really the premise that you wanted to write about bringing that life experience that into a novel.
[00:06:18] And yes, the thing that's different. And then I mean, obviously, I drawn on my own experience that I I take the family in my novel in a very, very different direction because they without knowing it, they all have different motivations for what's happening. So one one party in the marriage thinks one thing is happening and the other party is making plans for something completely different, which, of course, you'll find out if you read the novel and we should mention the name of it.
[00:06:50] It's called Lies Behind The Ruin, isn't it? So I guess lies as a clue. And in terms of what we can expect to uncover as we read it.
[00:06:58] Yes. I mean, I'm hoping that title works on a few different levels. But certainly the main title that you would understand but is intended to be. Yes.
[00:07:09] And from these I guess some of the issues in the book. I mean, one of the things that we touched on, having read it and we don't want to give too much away is obviously if we want people to be encouraged to read it, they put deceit on different levels, isn't there within the book. And I guess one of the areas that there's an element of deceit quite early on, which again in part creates the need for them or that the desire for them to go to France.
[00:07:32] This part of is is financial deceit. Yes, that's right. So the husband in the book, whose name is Paul, he has been he probably got married a little bit later. And I've been you know, he was coming up to 40, whereas Emma, the wife, will be coming up to 30. So she's quite a bit younger than him. And they have quite a different different experience in their past. So Paul has had quite a glamorous life, really good jobs, and he hasn't had to think about what he spends his money on. So if he wants flash holidays, flash cars, horse racing, all of those things have been available to him. Whereas Emma was a single mum shortly after she had a short marriage when she was at university, which didn't last very long. And she's been struggling to bring up her son from her first marriage on practically no money at all. So they've got very different values and principles towards money. Of course, Paul doesn't think he has to tell her everything that's really going on, and that comes as one of the first early surprises in the book.
[00:08:42] So, I mean, how mean from your own experience, I mean, how common is it that husbands or even wives would hide their financial dealings or their financial situation, from their spouses?
[00:08:56] Well, when I was doing a bit of research for some blogs that I wrote around the publication of the book, I did dig into some statistics which I can't remember about the causes getting divorced. And I did discover that finance and financial problems is probably the number one, which is surprising because people might think it's something else.
[00:09:18] Many think it's adultery. Aren't they all playing a part? Yes, they do. But I suppose if people come to a marriage with such different principles towards money, then it's going to be very, very difficult to draw back from that. And I did have some experience about myself in an early marriage where my husband at the time, you know, he just could not contain his spending. And I don't know whether you know, I don't know whether that was something from his childhood. It probably was. But he was determined to hide it from me. So he sort of called me in the role of a kind of strict parental figure that was always telling him off and spoiling his fun while I was desperately trying to keep track of where the money was going.
[00:10:01] And it was not very a very happy time. Even though I was aware of it. I was watching like a hawk. It doesn't make for a very happy marriage, but if somebody is determined to hide it, then it's surprising how long they can hide their financial mismanagement.
[00:10:18] No, I actually I am aware of that. I won't go into too much personal detail, but it's something I've experienced in the past as well.
[00:10:25] Yes, I wouldn't be surprised if if many people listening might, you know, it might strike a chord with them. What do you think?
[00:10:33] I think it probably would do and I guess it makes you realise that you don't really know what somebody is doing or spending or on what you know. We don't know, do we? I don't know. Do you think there's an element of male pride there that they perhaps I don't know this is the case with your character on your book where they don't want to admit that they haven't got what you think they've got and they tried to cover it up there. It makes the situation worse.
[00:11:01] I think you're absolutely spot on there, actually. Particularly if it's somebody who's liked, used to being perhaps the center of attention or somebody who is very popular, you know, they might well be the first person to buy the round of drinks and keep on paying for others. That might be one of the thing. And I suppose it feeds back into some kind of insecurity that their mask might slip if people don't see them always being at the centre of things and paying for everything.
[00:11:30] And so from your perspective of people read the book. Are you hoping that they will gain some sympathy about it or do you really write it just for entertainment?
[00:11:40] Well, I like to write things that are very, very contemporary because I'm interested in the world as it is now and all things that are going on around us. And I'm also very interested in people's individual experience and things like how a life can change in a moment. You know that the small things that happen. So in this particular book, obviously, I loved writing the French part because having had some of that experience myself, I'm very, very attached to it. And the characters that you meet in France and the different feel for the landscape, the villages and the town. And then another thing would be when I'd started writing the book and I started writing it before the referendum on the EU membership. And so when the referendum happened and Britain voted to leave the EU, I actually thought, oh, my goodness, do I have to abandon my book or is it suddenly going to become a historical novel or can I weave that into the plot? So there is a little bit about the challenges of the potential Brexit looming, even though the novel actually runs from 2015 to the beginning of 2017. In real time, though, nothing is resolved. But I've tried to sort of show that the and the issues around Brexit are definitely something that will affect people who are thinking about moving to France or to Europe, and they have to deal with that along with all the other challenges.
[00:13:06] And of course, we don't know how long it's going to be challenge for at the moment. Exactly.
[00:13:10] I was certain that, you know, we would know one way or the other when the book came out. And I was sort of stealing myself or having to ask Google the question from people who would say, well, you know what? They wouldn't be able to do that. You couldn't just up and off without massive amounts of money and land up in a French village and decide, oh, well, the business, because that's not necessarily going to be open to people in the future.
[00:13:34] You might not know it's a very different landscape now, isn't it? .
[00:13:39] But I don't think there's anything that any of us really considered at the start of it. Yes, totally. And over the years I've spent in France. But then, you know, in our holiday house in France, that is no longer ruins and looks like a modern bungalow, unfortunately. Rather than like a beautiful stone cottage. I've met many people who've come from the UK for all sorts of reasons, sometimes perhaps their children were in a school where they thought they might be in danger of getting involved in gangs. So they moved to the rural part of Franc where our house is and put their children in the French education system and started a new life. So, you know, there are so many reasons, not necessarily just older people that want to move. People of all different ages can start again. And perhaps if you're artistic and you want to, set up a pottery studio. I know people who've done that kind of thing as well. You just need a change in their life. And unfortunately, now that's not necessarily going to happen. Or maybe it will. We really don't know.
[00:14:38] We don't know. No, not at all. So you mentioned also we would come back to your first book, which was very different to the first the second one, because that was based very much more research based rather than drawing on your own experience. What inspired you to write the first one?
[00:14:56] Well, the first book is called After Leaving the Village, and it tells the story of an Albanian girl who is 17 years old when the book starts and living in a village and working in her father's shop. And she thinks her life is over in the sense that nothing interesting is ever going to happen to her again. And then one day, an enigmatic stranger from the capital, walks into the shop and tells her about the dazzling, exciting career she could have if she went with him to London. And then, of course, her life is about to change, but not in the way she expected. So that book actually is about human trafficking, modern slavery, but it's very much written at the human level. So it's not a novel about international criminal activity and gangs rampaging across borders. It's we follow very closely in the footsteps of one girl, but it's not. I also have a dual narrative with another woman who lives in London who came originally from a village in Wales and they end up on the same street and how their paths eventually cross and what then happens becomes an interesting part of the plot. So I got very, very interested in researching modern slavery and trafficking, and I was involved with a charity that's now appointed me as an ambassador for the charity. It's an anti slavery charity that works to support survivors and to raise awareness. So my ambassador role, I go around and I give talks and I alsobtell people about my book and then I give a donation from sales about book back to the charity.
[00:16:36] Did yo know about the charity before the book. Did you write the book before the charity?
[00:16:43] Well, I had all the ideas for the book, but then I started doing research and ofcourse I discovered, which might surprise some people because we'd be back in about 2013, 2014, but there wasn't as much material available as you would expect right now. Obviously, we hear a lot in the press about slavery because it's come into prominence in the last couple of years. But then the routes that I had to follow were taking me towards charities, the people they'd worked with and the case studies that they'd written up about people's life experience. So that was how they helped me with my research. The charity is called Unseen and they helped my research checked my book and wrote an introduction for it and they was very helpful and wanted to help me in any way they could because they felt it was. Given that fiction really could have a role to play in bringing this to people's awareness.
[00:17:42] But some yes, it's interesting, isn't it? You said it wasn't much out there then, but hopefully your book and the involvement with the charity has perhaps in some way helped to raise the profile of this problem.
[00:17:53] It's yes, it's been fascinating going round and doing talks all for different groups from book groups to WI and all sorts of people asking me to come and talk. And they all like have a light bulb moment when I'm talking. So they have read things in the press, but they've never really discussed it or thought about it. So we talk about, you know, cases of forced labour type slavery, child slavery, all the horrors that happen when people are tricked into selling a kidney, for example. And they really do raise their awareness in the course of a short talk. And then hopefully they buy my book and they read it, you know, a bit more that helps them to relate to the people. And you won a prize for that one, didn't you? Yes, I won a prize at Winchester Writers Festival. It was a novel prize, but it was only, you know, what you submitted was just the first chapter. So it wasn't the whole of the novel, but I was still very, very pleased to win.
[00:18:51] That must have been been very rewarding, especially it was your first novel.
[00:18:56] Yes, it was. Yeah. And it was really exciting. I was really I was I was really delighted because I think, you know, you're always uncertain of yourself as a writer, as an author. And you need a certain amount of feedback to understand that it is okay, really.
[00:19:12] So they are two very different books aren't they. So what's the third one going to be like. With one that's researched based and one based on your own experience, what's number three?
[00:19:25] Well, I've I've had a small bit of a setback in the sense that I started writing a sequel to After Leaving the Village, which would have been sort of along the lines of Returned to the village. And the reason I started writing that was because so many people who reviewed after leaving the village that they really wanted to know what will happen next. I knew there was a lot more story to tell. And so I thought I would give it a go. And I again, I did loads more research. And then when I started writing it, I got quite a way on with it. And for some reason the characters weren't speaking to me anymore. It was like they were saying to me, we've already told you our story. We're not going to talk to you anymore, though.
[00:20:08] Right. And I'd written almost half of the novel.
[00:20:11] I'd written about 40,000 words, submitted my first draft, and this was about last November. And at that point, I thought, you know what? I just need to leave this. It may I may never be able to write it, because if the characters don't work, however good your plot is, you're not going to have a very good novel.
[00:20:28] And you said there that the characters stopped speaking to you. Do you actually sort of have conversations with them as you write to create the characters or for readers to get to know the characters and they weave into the storyline.
[00:20:44] Well, it's a very strange thing. But although, you know, I'm moderately organised in the sense that I do like to plot out most of the novel before I start. And I like to know a bit about the characters. But once you start writing it, it can often go in a different direction. And some of that is because the characters form themselves into a version of real people. And so you find you can actually force them sometimes to go down a route that you are thinking of taking the plot. So what I do is I'm practically living in that world with my characters or I want to because I want the reader to have an experience of, you know, particularly with something like after leaving the village, which is so sensitive. I want people to think that my character with, you know, could be you or me or one of our daughters and people could then walk in her shoes and really understand what it was like to be somebody in that situation. So, yes, I did live it and some of it was a bit intense.
[00:21:44] And interesting, I hadn't thought about writing the book in that way and sort of becoming the character, so to speak. So if that one doesn't go ahead, do you have plans for a different option beyond that one.
[00:21:58] I do have another one. So when I left corporate life, what I did was I went to university again to do an MA in creative writing. And the reason that I did that was because I just wanted to make it a proper break between the corporate life and what I was hoping to do afterwards. Although I did sort of carry on doing, you know, writing related work to earn a bit of money. And I wrote a novel for my dissertation, which I kind of knew at the time wasn't really good enough. But nevertheless, I did get me my MA, so it can't be that bad. So what I think I'm going to do next is revisit that novel and see if I can. With everything that I now know from having two published novels, I'm going to see if I can work on that novel, which is complete, but really change it fundamentally to make it a much more acceptable proposition for being published.
[00:23:00] One of the things that we were talking earlier before, before we started the actual podcast is the fact that you said you came from corporate life and it wasn't too late, but having decided it wasn't too late. You progressed in quite a considered way by taking that break then to go back to university first.
[00:23:20] Yes. I mean, there were a couple of reasons for that. One of the reasons was I was on quite a long period of notice. I think it was and was maybe six months or something. So I had to give a lot of notice. And I was really worried that because I had a have a very good job and I did enjoy it. And so to give it up was putting my whole family at risk in some ways. But I thought if I've applied for the M.A. to start the following September and if I've got the place confirmed, then it wouldn't be so likely that I would change my mind or be persuaded to not leave after all. So that was one reason. And then the other reason was related to that business. The thing we were talking about earlier, which was that the more you write corporate work, the more you write reports and analysis, the more tied up your writing becomes. So I needed to sort of free it up again so that I would be able to write fiction in an acceptable way that really flowed rather than, well, all those kind of work anachronisms and things that you use when you're acronyms, rather you use when you're writing for a big company.
[00:24:30] Now they are two very different worlds aren't so different.
[00:24:35] And of course, you know, because you're doing it so intensely, it just gets under your skin. And before you know it, you become that person, you become that corporate person. You thought. I mean, after my first degree was in English and my first job, as I think I may be mentioned with the British Council, which was like, you know, the arts and international development side of the diplomatic service in those days. And so I thought of myself as like a creative person. And then I ended up going into areas of work that were anything but. I mean, they're perfectly fine. But the financial and legal aspects of what I have to do just meant you have to be very precise and not the same as writing, I think fiction at all.
[00:25:21] So anybody listening today that's perhaps worked in the corporate world and wants to come out of it and take that step and write that first novel. What would you be able to get in three tips, how to get started? Wow. , I've put you on the spot there.
[00:25:37] But it's it's a totally fair question. I was probably grappling with it myself for many years . I think I am a bit of a risk taker. I mean, obviously, impulse buying the house in France was an example. So once I've made up my mind, I'm going to do something. Then I will do it. And sometimes I'll perhaps do it a bit too quickly. Then maybe you should. So if you want to write, my first tip is then then write. So whatever situation you're in and if you've obviously got to keep on working because you've got to pay the mortgage and all these things, then find yourself some time to start writing and do it alongside everything else that you have to do with child care and elder care and job. And then soon after that, maybe join a group, perhaps a writers group where you can share your work with other people who will give you good advice and feedback. It's really a lonely thing where it can be a lonely thing to be a writer. So if you've got people who know, you know, who are at the same stage as you were, maybe a bit further on, you can really support one another. Which is it. But I think probably the third tip is you may need some kind of um, if you decide to stop a well-paid salaried job. You don't think that writing is going to pay your bills because almost certainly you're going to need to do loads of other things on the side. We all know the names of J.K. Rowling and the like bandied around a lot, but the majority of writers and full time writers really make very, very little money and probably have to do other things like editing other people's work, teaching or lecturing those kind of things. So you just do need to protect yourself financially if you still need to earn an income.
[00:27:27] Well, that's not quite how it is because people think you write your first novel, have an international bestseller, and you've sold the film rights and are now on an island in Caribbean somewhere. Exactly.
[00:27:38] And for some, you know, for some tiny, tiny percentage of people it is. But but for the vast majority, even like well respected name, they certainly make some money. But they probably would be a lot worse off financially than if they carried on, I don't know, being a teacher or something. I'm sure teachers would make a lot, lot more money than. Your average novelist? Sure.
[00:28:00] Well, that's a really interesting take on that. So but haven't thank you so much for joining us today and for sharing those tips that you can people who think. Food for thought there thinking about alternative channels to make money while writing that. Thank you so much for sharing that. We would just like to say people go out and read the book. I've read it. I really enjoyed it. I don't know if it's actually out or I had an advance copy.
[00:28:23] Yes. It came out on the 25th of April. And there's also an e-book on Amazon. It should be available in some leading bookshops or it may have to be ordered otherwise. Yes. From Amazon or Smiths or Waterstones.
[00:28:43] And again, it's the title of Lies behind the Ruin and should be a great summer holiday. Read . Yes.
[00:28:50] I mean, one way that I think I could describe it is it could be a beach read for somebody who likes their beach read on the darker side. If you don't want like light and fluffy, then you might find hopefully this will keep you turning the pages.
[00:29:05] I belong to a book club. I think it would be a good book club read? Actually, when you go through it, it raises quite a different number of issues, doesn't it? Within relationships? Yes.
[00:29:15] There's a lot to talk about. Certainly my last novel has done really well with book clubs and I sometimes get invited along to talk to them, you know, after they've read it. I very much hope that lies behind the ruin will be picked up by book clubs as well. So they can have a good debate about all the issues.
[00:29:33] Thank you so much for joining us today. And this let us know when you've got book number three on the bookshelf.
[00:29:39] Oh, thank you, Ceri. Yes, I'd love to. Thanks very much for talking to me about my book. I really enjoyed it. But again, thank you Helen Matthews, the author of Lies Behind the Ruins. Thank you.
[00:29:55] Thank you for joining us today. Please do subscribe and also send the link to friends and be part of the pro age conversation. Life really is meant to be fabulous at every age, but especially after 50.
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Ceri Wheeldon of Fab after Fifty interviews Karen Knott of Prime Time Business on How to Set Up a Business over 50.
We talk about why women over 50 set up businesses
Why more businesses set up by women over 50 are more successful than those set up by younger counterparts.
How to overcome the fear of technology when setting up a business
The essential things to do when setting up a business
The fundamental steps to take when setting up a business
Three top tips to set up a successful business
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Full episode transcript:
[00:00:04] I'm Ceri Wheeldon. Welcome to the Fab after Fifty podcast. Leading the pro age conversation, talking about all things life after 50.
[00:00:17] Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Fab after Fifty podcast. And I have with me as my guest today, Karen Knott. Karen is a business coach working primarily with women in their 50s and 60s, setting up their own businesses. Hello, Karen, and welcome to Fab after Fifty.
[00:00:33] Hi there. Ceri, it's lovely to be able to talk to you today.
[00:00:38] Now, I'm so looking forward to sharing this our listeners, Karen. I know you do so much work, don't you, to encourage women to successfully set up businesses when they reach midlife and beyond?Yes,
[00:00:48] it's my mission and my passion, Ceri.
[00:00:54] And I know that always come through in our conversations. Why do you think it is that so many women choose to set up businesses once they reach their 50s?
[00:01:04] Well, I guess there's a variety of reasons. I mean, for some women, Ceri, there's a catalyst of some sort taht will have occurred.
[00:01:15] I'm thinking here about things like possibly a redundancy, maybe sort of empty nest or sometimes it's even like, you know, a big birthday like fiftieth or sixtieth. And it's just that sort of thing which makes them sort of think, OK, right. That's it. You know, I need to do this now, you know, not in five or 10 years time. The time is now, you know. And but for a lot of people, it's just sort of a phase of life, you know, that it's like they're moving into their next evolution, if you like, if that doesn't sound a bit to woo woo. And it's just like they're just saying that they want to explore new possibilities, you know, and up for just sort of doing something different. Sometimes it's actually as simple as that. It's sort of pull towards I want to do something different. And the women that you work with.
[00:02:16] I mean, when they come to you do they have a fully fledged idea of what they want their business to look like or is it still very much in the conceptual stage?
[00:02:26] I guess, you know, for some it's in these sort of let's say there's two there's two different parts to it, really. First to some, it's like I just have this feeling, if you like, you know, of this wanting to do something different, but they haven't yet been able to shape what that thing looks like. So that's sort of like, you know, one group of women, it's like they don't know the what of what it is they want to do. It's like, you know, what is this thing? You know, what can I do? So there is one group and the other group is they know very well the what and they're their sort of challenge is you know, how do I make this into a business? So if you like, they come from two different sorts of fall into two different camps.
[00:03:13] If we take the second camp that these are the people that know what it is they want to do, what are the first steps that people should really, I guess, take when they are thinking of setting up a new business?
[00:03:25] Okay. So I always say that the first things that we need to get really, really is a clarity thing that we have to do first. And that clarity, piece is first of all, starting with them because, you know, it's their business. So it makes sense to start from that point. And. Believe it or not, that is actually far more challenging than it sounds because probably for the first time in their professional life, professional careers, they are in a position where they can shape this thing to suit them, you know, whereas they've been used to when they've been in employment, probably being sort of having to fit themselves into someone else's job description, if you like. Does that make sense?
[00:04:21] Absolutely. I mean, I set up my first business in my thirties. And to go from being employed with your company car and set hours, suddenly being in your office at home. I think, okay, I can choose what time I start, I can choose how much travel I do. It's all down to me. Yes it can be quite daunting.
[00:04:43] You have to be incredibly disciplined to stick to a routine of some sort.
[00:04:49] Yes. Yes, it is. It's a change and it's just a different perspective. I think as well. And that takes a little bit of getting used to as like, oh. Right. Okay. So this is you know, there's a euphoric bit of yay, I can do what I want. And on the other end of the scale, there's that sort of, oh, my God, I'm responsible forever. Yes. It's sort of really starting off by getting to grips with. Right. So what does this business look like for you? Bearing in mind you can shape it in a way that is going to, you know, be right for you, because obviously, you know, if somebody wants to start a business whereby they're working just three days a week, for example, and they you know, they want to be working from home, then the business they create is going to be very different to the person who wants to be working full time and wants travel to be part of their business, et cetera. So, yes, you know, you need to be very clear at the outset what this business is going to look like for you. And as I've said before, that can be quite challenging to sort of say, oh, I can do this. I can make this look in a way that I want it to look you know.
[00:06:16] So presumably have they already done the market research to make sure that there is demand for their product or service or is that something that you would work through with them when they come to you?
[00:06:28] Yes, it varies. Most I would say most people probably haven't done much of that.
[00:06:35] Right. That's essential isn't it to make sure you don't have a business that nobody is interested in.
[00:06:40] Exactly. Exactly.
[00:06:42] So, you know, so the first part, it's really sort of putting you at the epicenter of this business and trying to really get clear on how she wants it to look. And the second part is really getting clarity on your ideal clients. And, you know, it's just so essential to really know the people that you want to work with. And I think perhaps, you know, a lot of people try and skip that step. You know, maybe they haven't done any research. And whenever people get stuck, did you know, nine times out of ten, the answer lies like going back to look at their ideal client. So, yes, I say the more you could do that upfront, you know, the easier it's going to be. Because it is a step you can't miss out and you can't pay lip service to it.
[00:07:42] You know, it's interesting that I mean that Fab after Fifty The website that I set up as I was turning 50. And to see if that's actually something anybody had an interest in at the time, I took out a stand at a very big exhibition and we just asked people questions about what they wanted to see. And at that time, what people wanted was actually quite different to what they want now. I run similar exercises because things that moved on.
[00:08:12] I mean, 10 years ago, people were concerned that they couldn't find the clothes they wanted on the high street now with changes in pension age and everything else. It's how they're going to support themselves. So I think you just have to keep up to speed with what what your customer wants .
[00:08:32] When I first started doing this, I'm thinking sort of over 10 years ago, I felt as though primepreneurs, as I call them. You know, I hate the phrase older preneurs We're sort of at the cutting edge of of setting up business. It's, you know, really not that many women were regarding this as a viable option, whereas 10 years down the line, I think a lot more people are thinking, actually, yes, do I? I don't necessarily have to get another job. I can actually do my own thing now. And it's not seen as something which is quite so avant garde as it was before.
[00:09:21] And I guess really with technology and social media it makes it a lot easier, doesn't it, to set up a business now. It has certainly changed since I set up my first business in my 30s. Instead, just to get started it cost a fortune. Whereas now with a phone, laptop and the Internet, you can do so much more. Yeah.
[00:09:41] Absolutely. And again, that's a bit of a double edged sword for some people because technology. I would say it's still the one thing that people worry about when they're setting up businesses. You know. That's interesting. Technology, but I'm not that happy with and yet they'll be happily using, you know, Facebook, et cetera. And it's like, look, if you can do that, you can do that for your personal account. You can do that for business. So. But you're absolutely right. I think it's never been simpler and it's never been less expensive than it is now to get yourself up online.
[00:10:28] Exactly. I mean, I know that now I can go back a long time. And we started a business. I had to have expensive phone lines installed. A printer was something like £4000.
[00:10:38] It's ludicrous.
[00:10:38] Think about it now you had to get all kinds of printed materials because you posted things to people. You know,now you don't have to really do any of that. You don't need to have an expensive brochure as long as you have a great online presence video.
[00:10:53] You need a website because that's your sense of shop window, if you like. You know, you need an e-mail account. You know, you need a Facebook account if you need to do social media, which most of us do. But other than that, you know, you don't need to have all the whistles and bells certainly at the start. And that's one of the things that I think is really important, is just to say. But look, you can start up your business by keeping things very simple. And it's like once you've got the fundamentals in place, then you can, you know, add the bits on top if you want to. But it's all about getting the fundamentals right. To begin with.
[00:11:36] And what would you say are the fundamentals when you're working with people?
[00:11:42] Well, that's guess I'll put you on the spot there and start with fundamentals. Are they actually coming up? I do know what I would say to that question, because the fundamental thing is to know the people that you are serving so that, you know, you hear it said a lot. You know, your ideal client, because that is absolutely key. And when I say know them, I don't mean just, you know, I want to work with. You know, women over 40 or men over 30 who don't know how to dress properly or something. It's not that, you know, that is just like the demographic you feel like. It's about knowing them at a completely different level, you know, knowing the things that they worry about, the things that keep them awake at night. You know, the things that the conversations they're having in their head, if you like, before they come to you, you know, what's the what are the problems that they're dealing with with which lead them to you? Because all information is essential, because, you know, that's what you put in your website, actually. Yes.
[00:13:10] And I see that you're saying, in essence, like every business needs to solve a problem. You have to understand what that problem is.
[00:13:17] Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. And again, you know, this whole sort of ideal client thing is fundamental because you know what? I've seen people who've tried to sort of start their website so I can sort of circumvent it. I'm going to go straight in and I'm going to get my business cards. And then I've got a lovely website. And they sit there. They're about to write their website. And it's like, oh, we don't know what to write. And, you know, of course, they don't know who they're actually talking to. And until they know who exactly who they're talking to and the problems that they're addressing, you know, they won't be able to to write in a way that connects with that person. So it is absolutely, absolutely key.
[00:14:13] So if they get it right. I mean, are people realistic about how much money they are going to make and how long it's going to take to make it? Cash flow is another essential element of me being able to run a successful business.
[00:14:27] Yes, it is. And I would say that, you know, that's the bit that I certainly cover in that first piece. And I'm telling you about the first piece is to actually get feedback on the type of business you want to run because some people Ceri, especially when they're especially, I would say my my market, you know, women in their 50s and 60s, Yes. They want to make money. But I would say that the majority of them, that is not the key motivator. But whether it is a motivator or not. I think it's still essential for them to acknowledge that and to say, well, OK. But I do need to make X amount of money because again, you know, a business that wants to make fifty thousand pounds a year is going to be very different from a business that wants to make one hundred and fifty thousand. Well, you know, so it is important to get really clear on how much money you want to make because that will dictate so much about, you know, pricing. Well, the services you offer. And also pricing those services. So, you know, you're not gonna make 150 thousand a year. You know, selling your services for 40 pounds an hour. That's going to take an awful lot of work. But, you know, it's just not viable. So, yes. So they need to get clear on that piece.
[00:16:07] Right? We hear, don't we, that women set up businesses in their 50s typically are far more successful than the women setting up businesses or men as well in their 20s and 30s? Why do you think that is?
[00:16:22] Well, I think it's because. For women, it's like, you know, they get to this stage and they think, you know, I've got all this fantastic experience. And it's about wanting to put that experience to good use. You know, it's like. And so there's there's a real passion behind behind this. You know, it's not just a game. It's not fundamentally a money making venture. It's far more than that. So they go in with this huge sort of personal commitment to make for a start. And, you know, of course, you know, experience is something which is, you know, a hard won commodity. Isn't it? And it's the thing that I see as an advantage that we have over our younger over young people setting up businesses. You know, we've been around the block a few times. Things don't phases in the same way as perhaps they did when we were younger. You know, we've got these sort of internal resources to fall back on. You know, we've been there. We've done it. You know, we know the sky won't fall in. Do you know what I mean?
[00:17:43] It's fine. Yeah, absolutely. You know, we've got these moves.
[00:17:46] So let's let's put them to good use.
[00:17:49] And I think that you think we a that and we get older, we recognise our own failings as well. All the things we can't do on our own.
[00:17:55] I mean, you mentioned technology earlier has been one of the factors, one of the things that women are perhaps apprehensive about. I know going back 10 years when, you know, it's hard to believe that social media was relatively new then. People said to me you have to get onto Twitter to support the website. I did not understand it. I went onto Twitter and people were using it I thought with a different language. It was like a whole page full of hieroglyphics. I did not get it at all. It didn't matter who I spoke to how I googled twitter. What do you do? It meant nothing to me until one day I went to a business networking event about whether I had a speaker and the speaker talked about social media and the very first time it made sense. I booked him to actually come to my house and set me up and explain to me what I should be doing. And it's the best money I ever spent because I had the confidence just to start on one platform and I went to some other ones as well, which kind of went over my head, I understood that. I understood that Twitter was like sending text messages. So once I understood that, yeah, I thought I can send text messages until the cows come home. And he helped get me started. And that was the best one of the best investments I made because I recognised I was getting nowhere when I tried to do it on my own.
[00:19:16] Yeah, I mean, yes, its undoubtedly a learning curve. You know, somebody I was talking to, the other side, starting a business was like a self development program on speed. And, you know, you are going to be doing new things, you know, things you've never done before. So, yes, you're going to come across some challenges.
[00:19:42] But, you know, the thing like technology is there are so many people out there that you can call upon to actually, you know, fill in that gap in your knowledge or confidence, like you just said, Ceri. And it's again, it's never been easier to outsource because you don't have to be, you know, good at all this stuff. Other people will do that for you so that you can get on and do the bit that you are good, you know?
[00:20:10] Absolutely. And the other thing I have found when it comes to technology. YouTube has been a wonderful resource to you. There's always some sort of tutorial on YouTube, that you can find.
[00:20:20] And what I tend to do is have it playing on my iPad or whatever and pausing it when I'm working on my laptop to get things done. And I've learned so much just by watching those tutorials.
[00:20:30] That's amazing. I was doing exactly the same thing. I've just been putting a program up onto a platform called Thinkific. And in order to get it to do. And I just could not. You know, I just couldn't get this bit to work. So, yes, like you on Google, you know, just typed in low and behold. There is a YouTube video. And I did exactly what you just said, played the video, paused it, went back, did what they said, played the next bit. Went back. It was like, oh, god, this is fantastic .
[00:21:05] And I think it's awesome. I think I personally that by the time you've reached this stage of our lives, we're used to solving problems, aren't we? Yes. And like you said, it's not that we get flummoxed by it. There must be a way round this. But let's try. I try and find the answer myself first. And then, like you said, with YouTube tutorials and Googling things. And then if I can't do it, I'll go to a third party?
[00:21:28] Yes. Exactly. Yes.
[00:21:30] But at least I understand the nature of the problem and who I need the contact to help me. Yes, but I think we are pretty resourceful like that. We're used to sorting problems in different aspects of our lives at this stage.
[00:21:44] Yeah. And all of those skills that we've amassed over the years, you know that we are pretty good. We are pretty resourceful beings, you know? Oh, you think so? You've had all this different work experiences, life experience and all of those things. I always say to my clients, none of those things. None of those things are wasted. You can bring all those things with you. I mean, you know me, for example, back in the day, I used to be a teacher and then I gave it up. I no longer wanted to teach. But here we are. You know, X number of years later, teaching is still part of what I do, but it's in a different format. So it nothing's wasted. Nothing's wasted .
[00:22:34] Three top tips that you are going to give women today about how they should set up a business. What would those three tips be?
[00:22:42] Okay.
[00:22:43] Well, the first one, I don't know, people might be a bit surprised by this because I think the first thing I would say is don't underestimate the role that your mindset has in all this. When you're setting up a business, you know, it's not just about the the how and ways of doing it. It's what goes on in your head that has a huge effect because, you know, let's face it, it does take a bit of courage to embrace that sort of fear and uncertainty and to perhaps take the leap of faith to follow your passion. But sooner or later, and in most cases, Ceri, I'd say it's sooner you will come up against something with the power to stop you dead in your tracks and that something is, believe it or not, your own resistance. And I'm talking about like, you know, the voices in your head that come up with all sorts of reasons why you shouldn't, you shouldn't, you mustn't set off in this journey. So, you know, your mindset will play an enormous part in your business success. All right. You know that. So that's the first thing. So just be aware of that so that you're not going to be thrown off track the first time that you get one of these little internal wobbles. No, just stay with that one. I think the thing is to make sure that you, the best way to support your mindset is to actually, you know, surround yourself with other people who are living examples, if you like, of what you actually want to do, because, you know, if you're in their company, seeing them doing the very thing that you aspire to do, then, you know, it makes you think, well, look, if they can do it, so can I.
[00:24:36] So that's that was the first thing. And the second thing is.
[00:24:44] Get strategic with your dreams. You know, it's it's really not enough to just wait and see. It's about actively starting to explore and discover what's possible.
[00:25:01] So, you know, one of the things I keep saying is it's you've got to make the decision to get intentional about this, because as soon as you get intentional, it sort of produces, if you like, a different energy, a focused energy. And that is something which you can really harness then to sort of accelerate things, because, you know, I always see setting up a business in your 50s or 60s as a really precious opportunity. But if you want to grasp this precious, precious opportunity, you've really got to give yourself the tools to create it. And no amount of wishful thinking can replace information, support, encouragement, accountability, all those things.
[00:25:49] So, you know, when you said that, I thought about the film field of dreams with Kevin Costner, build it and they will come.
[00:25:55] Yeah. Well, and so that last bit that I've just said actually brings me onto my third thing, which is get support because I'm speaking as someone who tried for many years to do this without support. And you know, it was hard. And as soon as I got myself a coach, that's where it all started. For me, that was it all just changed because, you know, it's as I said mentioned before, doing this setting up a business. It's about growth and expansion. And part of the joy and the challenge of this is inevitably about doing things you haven't done before and trying to sort of navigate your way by yourself through this completely new terrain is tough. I mean, you know. It is. Yeah. And also, nobody's born knowing how to do this again. Nobody's born knowing how to set up a business. But it is easy to learn. And, you know, like most things, it's so much easier when someone's showing you how . And not only is it easier, it's actually you progressed so much faster.
[00:27:20] So, you know, is that because you feel that so you put a session in at the following week or in two weeks time? It's almost like you have to have done your homework because you cant let the timescales slip.
[00:27:29] Absolutely. Absolutely. Accountability is, you know, part of the support that a coach will offer. And, you know, it's as you say, it's just it just makes all the difference. Knowing that you've got someone there that you have made a commitment to say, right, I'm going to do X, Y and Z. Well, without that support, you know, if X, Y and Z starts to get a bit tricky and challenging, you can sort of say, you know, suddenly unloading the dishwasher looks like a viable alternative.
[00:28:05] Oh, that looks that's a crucial thing I should be doing at this moment in time, checking my inbox.
[00:28:10] Whereas someone else knowing just knowing that you can go back to someone, not in a way that they're going to tell you off, then that isn't what it's like. It's about saying, look, you know, I'm here to support you. So let's get this done. Let's do it. Know it. After all, it is the thing that you want more than anything else. So, you know, having support is just going to make it that much easier.
[00:28:37] And how would you go about choosing the right coach to work with you?
[00:28:42] Oh, that's a very good question, because everybody's different, you know. Coaches are unique individuals. I think you can tell a lot by the message on their website. And I would say never, ever do long term coaching with someone I haven't met before, because there has to be a synergy between between you. You know, it just makes it so much easier.
[00:29:16] What about a physical meet or would that be like an online Zoom meeting or Skype call type of meet?
[00:29:22] Always. I love doing physical meets but a zoom call is the next best thing, isn't it? It's almost like you're in the in the room. I mean, you know, for me I guess people come to me because, you know, I make quite a big thing about helping my clients navigate the internal blocks.
[00:29:44] You know, we talk about mindset again as well as the practical how to elements, because in my experience, Ceri. So those two are completely interconnected. All right.
[00:29:56] So if that sounds like something, you know, that will resonate with some people. The thing. Yes. You know, I know that that's going to be something I need. Then obviously, you know, they'll find me a more attractive proposition than somebody was. Just say, right. You know, you just need to. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
[00:30:17] You know that if I don't come to me, because I'm boom, boom, boom one you know, it's horses for courses.
[00:30:24] This not something you.
[00:30:26] I don't offer coaching service, but so don't come to me anyway. But, you know, I would be very much do X,Y,Z and out pops this.
[00:30:33] Yeah. Yeah. Funnily enough though, Ceri, I've done you know, as a coach, I think it's important to have coaching. So I have, you know, over the years experienced lots of different approaches. And I know for me I can't do the look, here's my template. All you have to do is exactly what I tell you. And, you know, you'll get this end, because what I found is, you know, what works for the coach is their 10 step process or whatever doesn't necessarily work for me because I am not that person, you know. So I do think it is very important to find a coach that fits you. That's all I'm saying.
[00:31:24] All right. And I guess to say, I mean, if there's a 10 step process, it could well be as an individual that you're already very comfortable with for the four steps or six of the steps And what you need is to help on the other the other four that you don't have that strength in.
[00:31:40] Yes. Exactly. I just think it's a bit more nuanced than, you know, step 1, 2 and three. You know, you have to take the the individual into account, far more than that. I mean, I actually just reminded me it wasn't that long ago I wrote a blog post called Beware of the Blue Print just because I was talking about this exact thing about people offering you their blueprint, you know, and when there's a lot of that online, isn't there? You know, there is, you know, follow my seven step process and you, too, can earn twenty thousand pounds in three days. But you know the type of thing and I do I think they make that.
[00:32:28] I think they make their twenty thousand pounds by you buying their seven step process and not actually implementing it.
[00:32:32] Absolutely. Exactly. Exactly. You get to it and you think hang on. This isn't you know what? I wouldn't dream of doing that, you know, so. Horses for courses.
[00:32:45] So it seems somebody would like to work with you then and Karen or I know that you've got blog posts as well. How would they find you? How could they get in touch with you?
[00:32:54] Well, I have my online home. Ceri is at www.primetime business.co.uk And on that there's this is everything, everything you need to know basically. So it's got different ways of working together. You know, there's one to ones, there's an online course and more than that. I think you probably get a flavor of the you know, the way I approach working with people as well. So I say that's your first port of call. And from there, there's links to various social media channels as well.
[00:33:37] Great. Well, thank you so much for joining me today and for helping to inspire women sitting there thinking, should I shouldn't I go for that? I think that's a tremendous starting point for them. And then finally, you'd like to add before we sign off for the session.
[00:33:53] Yeah. There's one thing. It's never too late. And one of my favourite quotes. I don't know that George Elliot, quote, It's never too late to be what you might have been. I love you. I like that one. Yes. And it's because, you know, because of all your lovely life experience, it's like equips you to become the person you were born to be.
[00:34:20] I love that. I think that's a great point to end on. Thank you so much, Karen. Karen Knott joining me today on Fab after Fifty. Thank you, Karen.
[00:34:28] Thanks so much, Carrie.
[00:34:34] Thank you for joining us today. Please do subscribe and also send the link to friends and be part of the pro age conversation. Life really is meant to be fabulous at every age, but especially after 50.
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Ceri Wheeldon of Fab after Fifty interviews Anne Keen, co-founder of WASPI about the WASPI campaign and the impact on women born in the 1950s of the increase in state pension age.
In this episode we talk about how and why the WASPI campaign started
Which women are affected by the increase in state pension age and how.
What progress has the WASPI campaign made so far
Are transitional pension arrangements likely?
What can be achieved by the judicial review as a result of the Back to 60 campaign
Next steps in the fight for justice for women affected by the increase in state pension age
----more----
Full episode transcript:
[00:00:04] I'm Ceri Wheeldon. Welcome to the WASPI Campaign. Hello and welcome to Fab after 50.
[00:00:27] Oh, hello Ceri. Thanks very much for this. For giving me this opportunity to raise further awareness of the WASPI campaign, very much appreciated. For those that perhaps don't know what is the WASPI campaign?
[00:00:42] Well, WASPI as women against state pension injustice. Initially, I'm the co-founder, one of five. The campaign was co-founded and was founded in 2015. And that was three years after I was informed of the changes to my state pension age. I'm basically campaigning for justice for women born in the 1950s who have been affected by the changes to the state pension age.
[00:01:12] It was quite sudden, wasn't it? I mean, we're told it was signed some time ago, but I don't think it was communicated that well.
[00:01:19] No, it wasn't. And that was one of the key crux of the campaign. Basically, I found out in 2012 that my pension age had been increased by two years, eight months and six days. And that was through the second letter I received from the DWP. And it was sent believe the whole not so long story. I'll keep it short and to increase. My husband and I were very fortunate to have a year off from our work in 2009. Increase was like a sabbatical because our plans were to retire to Greece. And obviously you're in a different mindset when you're on holiday. So we were in Greece 2009. Back to 2010. We continue to holiday in the same place in Greece 2012. There was a letter waiting for me from the DWP of your and it just said to notify you of your new state pension age. Well, Ceri, I was absolutely shocked. It was like a blow. I was in shock. I really was. I'm so sick I thought they'd made a mistake. So anyway, when I got back home from holiday I rang the DWP, I was in a serious state and they said no that's your new state pension age. I said, well, I've never, ever been notified. And they just said, well, all letters were sent out. So anyway, from there, me being me, I abhor injustice. I really do. I then started a petition through 38 degrees called Reverse the State Pension Age because I was oblivious to the 1995 and the 2011 acts. So the letter, by the way, I received and it was dated January 2012 and it was May 2012, I read it, and that was 13 months before I expected to receive my pension payments.
[00:03:16] I know from personal experience, I mean, a number of times I've had meetings with no financial advisors since 1995. And then yet it always seemed to be that women retire at 60. So they never asked me. Oh, it's all based on your birthday. You'll be retiring later. It was always way given that 60 was the retirement age.
[00:03:36] Absolutely. You make a good point there, because even judges in divorce settlements. They didn't know and settlements based on women retiring at 60
[00:03:49] It's been very recent that that's been happening. And, you know, I said the same about when I found out I started a petition. 38 agrees. 2012, just carrying on and carrying on, In 2014, the end of 2014 one of the co-founders contacted me. I've just seen the petition. We started communicating quite regularly by email and she was very thorough. She was writing to MPs then the following year in February, March , three of the other co-founders just contacted me and we just started communicating on a regular basis. And then we thought oh, we've got something here. We have so many facts. And you wouldn't believe Freedom of Information requests, for example. One example is the only letters we've sent out to one cohort of women in 2009, 14 years after the 95 fact. So we met and one of the co-founders, with a guy with his own PR company Chris Shaw. He said, Really, what you need is a brand. You need something people can identify with and lots oftoing and froing So when was this how WASPI was created? And it was a few months after that when we found out more facts about state pension age on the acts themselves. I handed my petition in because we were advised by politicians, you know, all about reversing the state pension age and it's never going to happen. And you know something, Ceri? We were and this is where we were greeted as political activists. We were just five ordinary women. And no one can ever take away from us five women, although we have parted ways.
[00:05:41] No one can take away what we started because what we've started is what people like. It started, as people say, kitchen sink, a kitchen sink campaign. We started out as a kitchen sink campaign. And now we've been acknowledged as the most successful women's campaign in this century. And that's something to be very, very proud of. You should be proud. Absolutely. We are and sometimes times, you know, I sit there and it's shocking to think how far we've come because we have achieved such a lot. And we believe the women of the fifties. The politicians thought, you know, we were an easy target. By the time they find out, you're going to be sitting there knitting or doing whatever. They didn't realise how passionate, how determined we are to achieve justice. And you know, and there have been. And like most organisations and political parties, there've been a few internal issues. But we resolve them because that was the campaign initially started out as women against pension inequality for one reason or another myself and other directors resigned in July last year for the good of the campaign. And what we agreed on and decided upon, we consulted with our local group coordinators with almost 90 groups throughout the UK. We thought, let's focus on campaigning and let's lobby MPs further. That said, let's strengthen the links with all already has with the unions. Which we've already done. And again, we're really, really proud of what we have achieved.
[00:07:32] So what are the issues facing women? It may be some women still aren't familiar with what the actual issues are facing women today who were expecting to retire at 60.
[00:07:44] Well, basically, the issues are you're right. So we have yet to find out what their state pension age has been increased to. And what we were calling upon the government is for transitional arrangements. That equates to a bridging pension, which when people get 60, they will receive a proportion of their state to be discussed with the government because they failed to engage and they will receive a portion of their state pension a bridging pension until they reach their new state pension age whereby they will receive the full amount. So women, myself included, have already received our pensions. So we're also calling for recompense for those women to receive recompense for the money they've lost. One of the issues is a major issue. Women have lost 50000 £50,000 of their retirement savings. You know, women have sold their homes more than once because they couldn't afford to pay the mortgage. You know, I mean, they may not have a partner or their partner may have been retired themselves. Women have had to face the indignity and humiliation of having to sign on at the Jobcentre to claim JSA and ESA benefits. No, this is absolutely appalling for women like ourselves. And most of us have started work and we started working when we were 15,paid our dues. And we fully expected to retire at 60 because no body told us otherwise.
[00:09:23] No. I mean, they made a good point there, though. I mean, with women having to who can't find help having to sign on how much to discussion, I mean, I have asked this question myself and I haven't really got any responses from various politicians I've met. How much discussion was there with industry in terms of if women are working for longer? What were the jobs likely to be that they were going to be able to be employed in and what sectors that hadn't really ever been addressed have it?
[00:09:52] Absolutely not. No, it's nothing more than you know. This is wrong on so many levels. There's been nothing out there to say. These are the jobs available. You know, Guy Opperman had the audacity to suggest that we go on apprenticeships. And, you know, some I mean, he was ridiculed not just by MPs and journalists, like obviously women born in the 50s to actually suggest to a woman who can barely make ends meet because there are some women out there who are visiting food banks and relying upon friends, family, neighbors to feed them, to clothe them there are hundreds of stories. So you're right there. So to say, OK, you know, force women because that's what they're doing, forcing them to work. What in what capacity? Lots of women have got very physical demanding jobs and they cannot continue on. You know, it's not just on physical points of view. It's the mental impact it has on womenCeri. Now, you know, go to a doctor, doctors on antidepressants. They've got breakdowns and it's pushed women over the edge. And we agree Waspi with equalization. It was the way it was implemented. We also agree. If women want to carry on working, that's their choice. What we can gather on the and the information we usually see from our followers is taht Most women, the majority, do want to retire and have the financial security they planned on having since they started work.
[00:11:42] I mean, one of the things I would like to add here is that there are women who choose to work beyond the age of sixty because they want and we have lots of tips on the Fab after Fifty websites. My background is headhunting. We've got lots of tips for those women beyond the age of 50 who want to reinvent their career or who are looking for a job or to update their skills, but those that choose to. That opportunity is there. But I think the argument here is the fact that people weren't given notice to plan their lives accordingly. Haven't been able to prepare for it. Yes.
[00:12:12] That is the crux of the campaign. You know, if people were informed in 1995 when we were in our 30s, approaching 40s, we would have had a least 15 to 20 years to replan our retirement. It would have that would have been in line with the terms of the commission who recommend that people should have at least 15 years notice of any plans and changes to their state pension age. Age concern of recommended 10. And even although that's a certain amount. It's not an awful lot of time to totally revamp and evaluate your plans for retirement.
[00:12:57] No. And if we go back to 1995. How was it? Was it communicated to anybody or how would people have even been aware of that change in the situation back then?
[00:13:11] Well, we wanted to see I mean, there were some people who might have seen it not everybody who may have that. Apparently, there was an advert in the Financial Times and a few were in high brow sorts of papers and some people maybe who worked in the banking industry. Also the DWP. So not all people who work for the DWP were made aware because of the nature of their career. Right. So the letters, the very first letters sent out, and that was to women born from the six April 1950 to the 5th of April 1951, that one cohort of women, they were sent letters notifying them of the increase to their state pension age people. The women like myself, who were born on or after sixth of April 51 percent a another staunch of letters , more letters were sent out in January 2010. All right. Not everybody. I received one but my sister. She's two years younger than me. She's yet to receive a letter. So there are thousands and thousands of women who are totally oblivious Ceri, you know. I said earlier, we've got all of these local groups of the country. And lately, many of us have been holding weekly gatherings in areas, in shopping, retail parks, and railway stations to raise the profile of WASPI. And we found that women who were, you know, curious, human nature are very curious. What's all this about, and when we tell them and they say I'm retiring in 2 months I will get my pension then. .
[00:15:04] And we say 'you don't. It can be physically painful to say that to them. So we refer them to our website , which is WASPICampaign2018.com . OK. There's a plethora of information on there. How the changes came to be, the freedom of Information requests that WASP has unearthed. It's it's really it's quite shocking to see that these women have still yet to be notified that all of the women and held him down more than one job, get up at half four in the morning to go out to do a cleaning job or whatever and then go on to another. I must have said, sure, it's wrong on so many levels of how the government can not even acknowledge this injustice beggars belief. Obviously, I think we're all aware the moment they do acknowledge there's been an unjust and injustice. The more that they have to do something about it. But they keep coming up with these myths. No one has to wait more than 18 months, for example. And I'd like to clarify, that isn't only in relation to the 2011 act, whereby initially they were going to increase a further state pension increase. And by two years, because there was quite a lot of opposition from saga and age UK they knocked six months off that. So in relation to the 2011 pension, no woman received more than 18 months extra time on her pension. What they conveniently forget to mention the biggest increase was in relation to the 1995 act.
[00:16:53] Mine was then three years, two months and six days. I lay out six months added on in 2011 act
[00:17:03] I thinkmine was 6 years X number of months. Can't Quite remember but I;m from the late 50s, but I'm still affected by it as well. In fact before the 2011 act became it became law. Myself and Sarah Pennell who runs tje Savvy Woman website. We actually tried to get them into write to MPs. We gave sample letters to people to download to actually fight against it before it was law. And we couldn't get anybody to participate because I think it wasn't really known. I don't think we would really appreciated how it was going to affect them. Campaigns like yours created more awareness later that people suddenly said, Oh, yes, I'm one of these women. And it does it does affect me.
[00:17:49] And I think it's great that yourself and other women have tried to get this off the ground. And that's why, you know, in 2012, I couldn't see any any other campaigns out there. And so when I started my petition and it gained momentum, handed it in in 2016, the government 55000 signatures, I never got a response from the DWP. It never resulted in a debate. We have a petition to wash the campaign in 2015. Not long after we actually were founded. We created a petition, a government position position calling for transitional arrangements, and that gathered one hundred and ninety one thousand signatures.
[00:18:41] And this resulted in countless debates in Parliament. Okay. Unfortunately, those debates, you know, give a non-binding. Although there was votes that were non-binding votes, but the number of MPs who actually came on board, we know they all support us to the hilt. And I must admit, I must mention this point the WASPI campaign. It's like we've sort of rebranded ourselves in July last year. We knuckled down and thought right. We've been far too quiet, far too nice for far too long. So we said, let's follow the suffragette system. You know, it's deeds, not words. So the first, like, protest. Besides, we had a few static demonstrations. We actually collaborated with two other pension groups, Back to 60 and W've paid in, you pay out.
[00:19:38] WASPI initiated taht collaboration. And our first joint venture was a rally in London in October last year. And it was so successful, we had some really, really fabulous guest speakers to join and David Hemp, Sophie Walker, Jim Rogers and many, many others who were there supporting the campaign. That was early October, at the end of October for the autumn budget speech. Countless WASPIs were in the public gallery. We waited for Philip Hammond hoping to at least give us the courtesy and decency of acknowledging us those of maybe giving us something in the budget but he never. So we staged a protest. We stood there with our WASPI heads held high? We did make some noise and, you know, something heavy and all of the main SNPs. Welsh MPs, all the opposition MP stood up and gave us a round of applause. And it was such an empowering moment for us all. The numbers of private messages we received, tweets, everything on social media went ballistic and we thought we need to do more of this. And so we were obviously asked to leave the public gallery which we did.
[00:21:06] We went to college green. We make our presence felt on college green where the press, congregate. We were on Sky News and Channel 4. And then again, in the spring budget, we stopped the traffic, we stopped the traffic on our October rally day for an hour and a half outside parliament. That was also in parliament. And on the spring budget day, we stopped the traffic again. Then we went out to college green to storm college. We put barriers all the way around it. And we got quite a lot of publicity. And that's what we're doing now. Upping the anti. On our WASPI campaign 2018 there is the story on our website, on our Facebook page. You know, search them using those words. WASPI Campaign 2018. You'll see how active we've been. We're not going to take no for an answer. You know, in this current political climate, this is an ideal opportunity. You know, the opposition to say really?
[00:22:14] I mean, it's not just the current government that because Labour also has been in power in this period where they could also have communicated it, couldn't they? Oh, absolutely. And we think it's very wrong. It's not just not just the current government. I think it's something nobody has been willing to say in terms of the communication of legislation or the fallout in terms of what is you know, what is what would the impact be on these women affected. I think we have to say it is not just one party.
[00:22:43] No, you are absolutely right. I'm glad you raised that point. But what we're seeing there since 2011, you have the coalition governments where they act. They actually increased the they accelerated increase of state pension age. In their manifesto, the Tories and the Lib Dems said they would not. And there was increased state pension age by 2020, up until 2020. Right. They actually accelerated that age by increasing the age to two thousand eleven and 12 when they sent the letters out. And what we're saying is they have now eight years to right this wrong eight years. And they've not even acknowledged that we've been treated unfairly. So that is that counter to what you've just said? You're absolutely right. Labour has been in power. They did not convey the changes. So I think everyone all of the parties we support said keep quiet and no one will cotton on honestly what's actually happening.
[00:23:46] I think that was because after 50 were invisible so they wont hear from us you see.
[00:23:49] Absolutely. The longer it goes on, the more determined we become. Because, you know, I say that women are using food banks now, people of sold homes, and to say that their mental health has been affected. And also, we just we're not asking for handouts. You know, all we're asking is for what we're entitled to. That is the top and bottom of it all. The government say there's no money, which again, is quite patronising. We know the money's there, the national insurance was pillagde to pay all sorts of debts off when they want to pay for something, they find miraculously. They'll go and shake the money tree into the garden and lo and behold, the billions and billions of pounds spent on all the projects. And we are very pleased to see that John Macdonald actually said he will clamp down on tax avoidance and tax evasion. You know, surely. Back in their manifesto, that's something we the WASPI campaign have been saying for years. Yes, we've said to the governments why, you know, all of these companies, you know, they hated paying tax. We've paid our tax. We've done everything that's been expected of us throughout our working lives we've paid our dues. Some people still working, although they have paid the qualifying contributions, they still pay in contributions. Well, I say the more you look into it, Ceri, the more wrong it is on so many levels, but we're never going to give up.
[00:25:29] What's the nest milestone then? Am I right in thinking that there is judicial review
[00:25:37] It should be. This has been initiated by Back to 60 . We are cooperative with them and We've Paid In , You Pay Out. They persisted and persisted on this issue, and we were delighted. We've supported them all of the way, although it's all different. We respect each of the tasks. We congratulated them. We support them on the judicial review takes place on the 5th and 6th of June. So. I'm not far off them. Not at all. There will be small presence in London to support them. Then later on in the year the next steps will be dependent on the outcome of this judicial review. What we're hoping hoping to celebrate. So there will be one, massive demonstration in London. You know, it takes time to plan. Obviously, there will be a joint demonstration. And we've yet to discuss it in full with the two other organisations, two campaign groups. And so we want to be there. celebrating. If this JR goes against us, which we don't really want to think about, we will still have a demonstration and it will be a demonstration to protest. But we're hoping it won't come to that. We are, you know, and all we've got to do. You've got to applaud Back to 60 for being so determined in getting this far. I must say, we just hope, like every other woman affected in the country, and families, have been affected as well. We hope the outcome is positive for everybody. Can we just elaborate on that. the right wing press and the government will have people believe there's an intergenerational war. Again, it's a load of rubbish. There's not. We have so much support from the young generation. Obviously, the majority of this 50 something women have their own children who fully support us. Their friends, support us. We've got student unions supporting us. We've got political and youth groups supporting us. So we know what the government's churn out, the myths they churn out. Basically, we feel they're doing that, its smokescreens and mirror. Trying to take everybody off the scent, but we keep coming back stronger, more determined than ever.
[00:28:07] Well, I wish for you obviously for all of us, let's hope an optimistic and positive outcome early June and lets see the results back and then we can have a catch up. Following that. And then we can do that. Look to see how women are affected by this legislation and then the effects depending on which way that review goes.
[00:28:32] Absolutely. And hopefully you'll be a very positive conversation. Just say, yes, I believe it takes two weeks before the outcome of the JR is announced. Right. You know, one way or the other, we'll be celebrating.
[00:28:45] Hopefully we'll be celebrating and then that'll be the case. Yes. Thank you so much for sharing that Anne. I think for the women who don't know and those who are affected by it can you just give us the website URL so that people will find you.
[00:29:05] Ok. Yes, it's www.waspicampaign2018 (figures) dot co dot UK. And I would ask everybody to look on the local group page as well, Ceri, because you know, I just said we've got numerous local groups throughout the UK. Anyone can join these groups and WASPI women can join these groups. If that isn't a group in a particular area and women would like to start one their own group. I would just want to show them that they will have full support. We've actually got a fabulous mentor scheme going on in whereby an experienced co-ordinator is teamed up with a new co-ordinator as their first point of contact. So they will offer advice and guidance. And it's a great support system. It really, really is wonderful.
[00:29:58] Thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you. An important issue. Certainly all women in the UK. So that could, in fact, even if people aren't due to retire now. It's going to affect those that are due to retire later, isn't it? So you want to be aware of. It is for younger generation as well and much more.
[00:30:19] We've got their support.
[00:30:19] They know that they're next. Right. So thank you very much Anne for joining us today. So and so that was Anne Keen co-founder of WASPI. Thank you, Anne.
[00:30:33] Thank you, Ceri. Really appreciate this opportunity.
[00:30:41] Thank you for joining us today. Please do subscribe and also send the link to friends and be part of the pro age conversation. Life really is meant to be fabulous at every age, but especially after 50.
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Ceri Wheeldon of Fab after Fifty talks to therapist Wendy Gregory about how to recognise a narcissist. A topic which has proven to be of enormous interest when we have discussed dating over 50 on the Fab after Fifty website. This is the first of a series of 3 interviews on recognising and dealing with narcissists.
In this episode Wendy will share:
How to recognise the signs of narcissistic behaviour.
The three phases of a relationship with a narcissist - love bombing, devalue, discard.
What is involved in each stage
What is gaslighting ?
Wendy's contact details: [email protected] or TheWendyHouse facebook page
The patterns of narcissistic behaviour
----more----
Full episode transcript:
[00:00:06] I'm Ceri Wheeldon. Welcome to the Fab after Fifty podcast. Leading the pro age conversation, talking about all things life after 50.
[00:00:19] Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Fab after Fifty podcast. I'm very pleased to have with me today Wendy Gregory. Now Wendy is a counsellor, psychologist and writer. Hello and welcome to Fab after 50.
[00:00:32] Hi, Ceri.
[00:00:34] What are we going to be talking about today?
[00:00:37] Today we're talking about narcissistic personality disorder and initially on how, you know, if you're actually involved or in a relationship with a narcissist.
[00:00:49] There is an awful lot of media coverage about narcissism today is that because there are more of them out there with it, because we're just more aware of what a narcissistic personality is.
[00:00:59] Yeah, that's a difficult one really to pinpoint. And I personally think that there probably are more narcissistic people simply because parenting styles have changed over the years and become much more child centered as a lot more children are growing up believing that they're special. And this that doesn't help. But we don't actually have any numbers. I mean, the thing with narcissistic personality disorder is that very few narcissists will ever present for therapy. So they're largely undiagnosed.
[00:01:33] Right. And what exactly is a narcissistic personality disorder?
[00:01:38] Okay. Narcissistic personality disorder is a developmental disorder. There's often confusion. People think it's a mental illness and it isn't. If it were a mental illness, we could treat it with drugs or whatever and cure it. And it isn't actually the case. So it's about ways of behaving that are not what we'd call normal. I hate to use the word normal really as a psychologist, but. But they're not normal. They affect their relationships and more importantly they affect everyone that they're involved with. So there is narcissism is on a continuum. So this very low level, what we call a covert narcissists, there's that really quite hard to spot and generally they go through life without being spotted and then going upwards to the extreme and the overt, malignant, sadistic narcissist type, much more obvious. And it's really a collection of behaviours. So I'll just give you a few examples and a grandiose sense of self-importance. They're always very grandiose. So they pick themselves up. They're boasting, they claim to have done things well, make up qualifications and clams that just don't exist. And they believe that they are special and unique and they have an absolute need for excessive admiration. So that ties in with boasting a lot and a lack of empathy. So they really, really don't empathize with other people. And and that makes them obviously very difficult to have any sort of satisfactory relationship with them, very manipulative.
[00:03:15] So their whole aim really in life is to get what they want and at the expense of everybody else. All right. I mean, I know recently there've been a few examples in terms of films, one I watched on, I think on either Netflix or Prime was Dirty John, which is a true life story which gets quite horrific in fact in terms of how this poor woman was abused without giving away the ending but Dirty John well, I can be quite open here. I mean, I haven't been in a similar relationship myself with a very different ending. But you almost see the patterns, you recognized it as it was happening. And then you think, why didn't I recognise it when it was happening to me?
[00:03:57] Did you see, Dirty John? And yes, it was an absolute classic pattern of narcissistic behaviour. And as you said, we won't give any spoilers, but he was at the extreme end of narcissistic personality disorder.
[00:04:15] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So for those that haven't seen it. If you think you're involved in a strange relationship, look it up because if a friend who you think is in a controlling relationship. Also, if they watch it, they might help you understand why she puts up with it in quotes behaviour that perhaps you wouldn't. Maybe understand where she's coming from. How to say to people, how do you know if you're involved with somebody who is a narcissist? What should would we be looking out for?
[00:04:43] All right. Well, the symptoms that I've just mentioned, obviously, and that there's a pattern to the relationship and narcissistic relationships are done in three phases. And so the first stage is we call it love bombing. The second is devaluing and the third is discarding. Initially, narcissists love bomb you, so that's something to watch out for, it's too much, too soon. They shower you with attention. They may even shower you with gifts and expensive presents, but not always. But they shower you with attention. They want commitment very, very early on because of course, they cant manipulate you if you're not committed to them. So they start talking about a seriously long term relationship, might even ask you to marry them on your first date, tell you that you're soul mates and but things tend to watch out for really are that it is too much too soon. But also that if they seem to have interests that are exactly the same as yours now that's obvious. It might just be coincidence that they do that to get you to feel that you are soul mates. You know, you're meant to be together and so on. So some of the examples I can give and because I see a lot of clients now who've been in narcissistic relationships and one of the examples which have been given permission behind by the client to share was the man who had been involved in a relationship with an extreme narcissistic woman.
[00:06:15] And looking back on the first date, he was an amateur wrestler in his spare time and on their first date, she claimed to be an amateur wrestler as well. Unusual. That is a really unusual thing. But he said, you know, now that I can laugh because how did that fit to the very petite frame and just think, how did I believe? But at the time, I thought, oh, great. Amazing. I found someone who's got the same interests as me. Things like, if you like Kate Bush, they will have all her albums . And then they will say that they've been to see her live. They might even say they know her well. They've got a personal connection with Kate, but you can do a little bit of digging around that. You know, you can actually catch them out, ask them what from some of the tracks are and help them or where they were last on live. Something like that. You can catch them out and also they tend to be in multiple relationships. So it's very likely that when you first date a narcissist, they will still be involved with someone else. Obviously, they try to cover their tracks quite well. But just doing a little bit of digging and if they're vague about where they live or who they live with or when they broke up with their previous partner. That is a red flag really for you need to push for more detail. But how can you, you say push for more detail in what way, because if its new, you wouldn't expect to know their wearabouts seven days a week, 24 hours a day, because you've your life hopefully that you will be living as well.
[00:07:50] Absolutely. Absolutely. But as we said with the love bombing stage, they will be contacting you constantly. So and on the first date, I mean, I because I have been involved in two narcissistic relationships, but the most recent one and he asked me before the date ended it, when can I see you again. On my way home on the train. I was getting texts from him. I can't believe I've met such a such a lovely woman. The next morning in a more texts, more texts, more texts, phoning every day. So the attention is constant. So back to back to the red flag. That's a warning sign because people that are mentally healthy people don't do instant relationships. They take time to get to know you. They don't do all this love bombing and too much too soon. But as for asking them where they live. I mean, you don't want to make it an interrogation on a first date, but you don't have an interview. Yeah. But can't ask to prove who you are, do you have a recent bank statement and you cant ask that, but just be aware and if it is vague. I mean, one of the really common ones is, oh, I'm staying with friends at the moment while I'm looking for a place of my own. And then that gets them out of ever having to invite you there to their place. Oh, no, you can't come here.
[00:09:11] Now we have mobile phones haven't we we but when we were a lot younger. Obviously, when you reach your 50s , our first experience of dating was when we were in our teens and early 20s, and we had fixed landlines then. But people called you at home. So you had to be in a physical place, didn't you, to take those calls?
[00:09:29] Yes, you did. I mean, we didn't even have voicemail.
[00:09:34] Whereas now ,with mobile phones, you could be anywhere. Absolutely. You could be anywhere. And have more than one mobile.
[00:09:43] They do. That's very common that they have, you know, mine had four in the end, four different mobiles. Yeah. Yeah. So, yes, that's another sign up. Another warning sign. If if whenever you ring it goes up, it goes to voicemail and it's a little bit suspicious. They usually will call you back. Know they'll find a different place to be, although not for a walk if they're living with someone and they'll call you back. Or they'll pick up the phone and say, I'm in a meeting I'll call you back. If that's a little bit of a warning sign, if it keeps happening, obviously sometimes people are unavailable and you'd expect that. But if if it keeps happening, that they very rarely actually pick up the phone when you ring. Why? No one is that busy. Yeah.
[00:10:30] That's look at the early stages. Yeah. But what if you miss all the signs and you find yourself in stage 2 . Stage 2.
[00:10:40] That's called the devaluing stage and the narcissist will have put you on a pedestal during the first phase and then they start knocking you off the pedestal. So basically, they start devaluing you. They start criticising you. They start blaming you for everything. They'll turn everything around and make it your fault. And this is called gaslighting. And you start (after the film) The old black and white film where the husband was plotting to have the wife murdered and he made her think that she was going insane. And that's where the term comes from. And it's very common touch. You feel as if you are going insane because that's what a narcissist will do. They also can pick you up and put you down. So one minute they're telling you how much they love you, what a wonderful person you are, blah, blah, blah. And the next day, not contactable or they're criticising you constantly. They very often start to disappear. I think the term is ghosting now. They'll just disappear. You can't get hold of them. You don't know where they are for sometimes two or three days at times and sometimes a week. And you become very, very anxious in the relationship. You feel very confused. You don't understand what's happening. And then all of a sudden they're back. No. Reassure you. Oh, no, no, no. It's you. You've got trust issues. You've got jealousy problems. You need to get that sorted to help. And you do start to feel as if you're going crazy. You really do. So, yeah, that's that's that's the second phase. So if you start to well it's abusive basically. And that is quite subtle often and you don't realise it's happening for some time. But once you do, you need to try and get out of it, try and pull away from it.
[00:12:29] And also we hear that abuse can be financial cant it. Yes, it can. If you like, very controlling in all aspects of your life. Certainly.
[00:12:38] Very often they do. Yes. And they will also often leave. They tend to groom and groom people. And this is you know, it's not just men that are narcissists are female narcissists as well. But similarly, there are a lot more of this around. But, yes, they will groom you for it to meet their needs. So sexually. Financial needs are very often borrow money or steal money, actually defraud you and of your money. So, yeah, I mean that's financial abuse.
[00:13:10] And also my understanding is that from personal experience, they would try to isolate you from those people who are close to you who might become more aware of that behaviour. And I mean, if you look at Dirty John, that was a classic example in that film. It was. It was, yes. But they do try to isolate you from people that are important to you or they feel can influence you.
[00:13:31] Yeah. Yeah. They've tried to separate you from your friends and family very often. Yes. So other people because it's very often your friends or your family that spot that there's something not right. And they will be telling you, you know, this isn't right. You need to. You need to end this, you need to get out there. So, of course, they don't want that because they want to be the person in control. And everything is about control with a narcissist. Everything they do. They have to be in control. They actually just can't cope with not being in control. So, yes, they will try to isolate you very often from your friends or family . And presumably at that devalue stage is when they can they can actually have total control over you.
[00:14:12] Yes. Yes, they do that. Yes.
[00:14:14] They have total control over your mind or your body or your needs, everything. Yes.
[00:14:22] And then the last stage then is the discard stage isnt it.
[00:14:25] Yes. Yes. And in the discard stage, they will be moving on to what's referred to as a new source of supply narcissist and will have at least one, usually several sources, its called sources of narcissistic supply.
[00:14:41] So they will be they usually will have started another relationship. They may have been having another relationship all along, but they'll be on to the next person that they that they start love bombing and the ghosting and the disappearing will become more intense. Oh, I'm going away on business undoing this or they'll use their health as an excuse. That's a common one. Got to have an operation. They've got to have an MRI scan. Weirdly, at 9 p.m. in the evening or any kind of excuse, they will gradually, gradually withdraw.
[00:15:15] And sometimes it's the other way round. They will do something so awful that it prompts you to end the relationship. So either way, they they want to cut off from you. But a narcissist even when they end, they will keep coming back because they like to have you available in case their new source of supply falls through. So they tend to keep you dangling on a piece of string called hoovering. And every now and then they keep coming back just to make sure you're still there. Make sure you're still available. And that's really when you stop to think you're going insane. And it's not because they care about you. It really is not interested at all. They just want to know that you're available.
[00:16:00] Yes,soit's a fairly unsavory character type to get involved with. Really?
[00:16:07] It is. And people will often say, well, how did he get involved with them in the first place? And that's the other thing about narcissists is they are always, without exception, extremely charming and charismatic. You can think of a few notable and famous people. One of them lives in America. I'm sure you know who I'm talking about. I dont want to get sued for libel or anything, but I'm sure you know who I'm talking about. So, yes, they are extremely charming and charismatic, and that's what draws us to them in the first place. And obviously, we don't realise at the time that it's not genuine, but it's it's all for show. That isn't who they are. In fact, they're actually quite empty. There's nothing there.
[00:16:48] They don't really have a personality. So with all of this are there typical timescales, because they talked about the three stages. Is it sort of, I don't know, maybe there's not really been any research to quantify. Are there specific timeframes?
[00:17:05] I don't think so, you're right Ceri, I don't think there has been any research into it. I actually think it's really variable. And with a covert narcissist, I mean, they often are married, sometimes their whole lives, have families and everything. So it's can be lifelong or with the more extreme type of narcissists, it tends to be much more short lived because their behaviour is so extreme. They can't really keep a relationship going for very long. And I'm going to say, mine lasted nine months but it may be sort of up to two years. But of course, if you've had children with them, then that is a completely different ballgame because you're never rid of them really. If you've got contact with them, then it becomes much, much more difficult and much more complicated.
[00:17:55] I know some of the discussions that come up in the we have a Facebook page where we've post articles and I included one from you Wendy about dating narcissism. Yes. But people have commented that they'd come out of long marriages with narcissists that maybe lasted 30 years. Yeah. And when they've left they have been devastated and broken at the end of it. So the fact it was so long. Not really understanding what was happening.
[00:18:21] That's not fair. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:18:25] Thank you so much for this, Wendy. Obviously, we talk about the narcissistic personality disorder today, but we're going to do a couple more episodes, aren't we? There's too much to cover in one, but there are two more episodes at least that were going to be doing. And the next one, I think you've got sound is talking about how you recover from having been in a relationship like that. Indeed , yes. So thank you very much for joining us today.
[00:18:47] How could people reach you, Wendy. They can reach me via my Facebook page, which is called the Wendy House or my email, which is [email protected]
[00:19:04] We'll have details in the in the overview as well. But meantime, people want to be in touch with you that's how to do it and I look forward to sharing. I guess, episode two in our narcissistic series.
[00:19:19] Yes. You're welcome, Ceri. Thank you. Bye bye. Bye bye.
[00:19:29] Thank you for joining us today. Please do subscribe and also send the link to friends and be part of the pro age conversation. Life really is meant to be fabulous at every age, but especially after 50.
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Ceri Wheeldon of Fab after Fifty talks to Life Coach Carole Ann Rice of the Real Coaching Company about Friendship over 50.
In this episode we talk about friendships old and new.
How we may outgrow old friendships and managing the sense of loss
Making new friends - where and how
Impact of social media on friendship
How and why friendships change
Different types of friendships
Setting boundaries with friends
How to make longlasting and fulfilling friendships
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Full transcript:
Hello.
[00:00:03] And welcome to the Fab after Fifty podcast leading the pro age conversation.
[00:00:09] So today on the Fab after 50 podcast I have with me my special guest Carole Ann Rice who is a life coach and the only life coach to have a weekly column in a national newspaper. In fact she's just had her four hundredth column published in The Daily Express. That's quite an achievement. And she's also director of her own life coach Academy the Pure Coaching Academy which I'm sure she’ll tell us more about during this podcast. Carole welcome to Fab after Fifty.
[00:00:38] Thank you for having me.
[00:00:39] Carole we've got some interesting topics to talk today talk about today haven't we. And I think we said we were going to start with talking about friendship over fifty and various aspects of friendship over 50.
[00:00:54] Yes it's an important part of life that you can't choose your family but at least you can choose your friends so it's you know friends can be very important to us especially as we age.
[00:01:07] Absolutely. But we were we were talking about way this the other day and about the fact that sometimes we can actually outgrow friendships that we've had for many years.
[00:01:18] Yes. Yeah. I mean you meet someone at school or college. They met you when you were younger and it doesn't necessarily mean that your lives will go along happily on parallel lines.
[00:01:30] We grow we change each year. We are different as we grow. We learn new things we let go of new things we reinvent our style.
[00:01:38] So we're different from the person we were a year ago let alone 25,30 years ago. So you know just like marriages can sometimes drift apart. So can friends because you don't always share the same life experiences or have the same interests you used to have when you were younger.
[00:01:57] No I mean I know it's very difficult though isn't it at certain times. Do you think you have perhaps outgrown a friendship or you don't really feel that positive when you're looking at when you've got arrangements to meet somebody but we still feel obliged to go through with those meetings or continue those friendships partly because of the history.
[00:02:16] I think there is something. Well there's a couple of things here.
[00:02:19] One is if you enjoy the kind of comfy nostalgia of the friendships and you can relive old times and talk about the past and have a laugh in that way and that's that's good. Even if you've drifted apart you can very much share those past life experiences. Then there's the other side. If you have grown far apart and you might have moved ahead in your career or your family and your friend hasn't or you might have remarried or doing all sorts different things. It could be that you don't have a lot in common anymore. And actually the friendship is a bit laboured and you kind of dread seeing that person simply because there is no compatibility there anymore. I suppose in the old days it used to be a phone call or letter or an occasional meet. At least you could if you wanted to continue a relationship that's become a bit tired via Facebook and keep in touch with people using social media so you don't have to completely cut someone out of your life and you can still have a very cheery nice connected friendship. But more and more of a distance.
[00:03:25] What about we read an awful lot now I think in the press about sort of narcissists and toxic friendships. I mean what if we happen to be unfortunate enough to come across both sorts of people as personal friends.
[00:03:38] The thing is that narcissism isn't a new thing that's been around since year dot. So we've always had people who are a bit show off and self-centered the world every every conversation begins.
[00:03:51] I mean you meet and you know sometimes a meet and timid or introverted person is quite grateful for an extrovert diva glamorous then who's only talking about themselves that they can not and smiling vicariously enjoy the drama queens life vicariously. But if you do find that the narcissist or the toxic person is grating with you then you have to seriously think about how long you're prepared to tolerate this deadening and de- energizing relationship.
[00:04:30] What would your tips be though Carole. No. I don't know about you but I have do you have that situation in my life that I felt so guilty of bringing that friendship to a close. I think one has to start by distance saying so seeing the person less and then perhaps if you really don't want to make a final cut.
[00:04:50] See them infrequently. But if you do ring fence it like I'll see you for coffee I've only got an hour to see if it's still so horse maybe every three to six months or so literally a lunchtime catch up a coffee and a cake or something. And then you sort of feel like I've still got a bit of connection with this person. They're not essentially that bad but I just don't really like spending a lot of time with them. So you could keep it.
[00:05:13] You know have a boundary around it.
[00:05:17] Equally you know one doesn't want to be rude and so don't actually want to see you again because you really are tiring to be around.
[00:05:25] So I typing away is the way to do it. But then you have to decide to I'd never ever want to see this person can I just want to have more measures.
[00:05:35] All right. I mean I know people who say that they have certain friends who are so demanding of them. One thing of tension certain given back almost They feel bullied by those friendships. I mean I guess that's kind of an extreme isn't it. But I suppose it can happen.
[00:05:53] It can happen. But also you know bullying means a victim. So don't be the victim. You know there's ways of doing this.
[00:06:01] So sometimes we are particularly British people very polite and we tolerate a lot of bad behavior. And I think it is about personal boundaries if that person is being demanding as a rule. dominating taking but not giving someone needs to put a boundary with that person so they are obviously slightly out of control. They don't have any self-awareness. You might have to say hey x y z. When we meet up here's the deal. OK let's not talk about your horrendous marriage let's not talk about your diet that you're. And we got We all kind of going to have different topics we'll talk about the same thing and kind of like get you know we've got a bit of a draggy friend who's always banging on about bad relationships. I tell you just the one. Let's have some really good fun tonight and that none of us talk about the draggy things again. Lets all go and do something together. Well we don't have to go down there and it's almost like letting the person know that's enough, we've agreed. We're going to see a show. Go to see a comedy club with that person can't dominate. Or just simply said no I can't do that. I can't take your phone call right now we're having dinner and let the person there's a line of kind of respect that you are putting in place that you wish them to value whenever.
[00:07:23] I know. I mean I had a situation recently with a lovely friend actually that we both had a difficult situation both of which were not nice but totally out of our control. But we agreed that when we met up we have exchanged the facts and it was to do with family health et cetera et cetera. We'd exchange the facts that we first met and then we just go and have a nice evening and we wouldn't discuss it, we'd exchange the fact they would know the horrible things that are going on but then we'd move on and we'd go to the cinema or we join other people for dinner or we would do something. But we'd agreed that once we'd exchange that the basic information that was upsetting we wouldn't let off face to face time be affected bit. What a great plandid it work. It did work because they both needed a break from it. So we kind of where we would agree that there'd be no for the phone with exchange a lot of the detail but we just agreed that when we went out we don't live close together so you know the opportunity to actually see each other were not that frequent or aren't that frequent. The evening would be as nice as possible. We both needed to do something fun.
[00:08:27] Well it was a good tactic there.
[00:08:30] It was a good tactic not seen it would work in all cases but it's also work as you said if it's a one sided situation we've had somebody go into that horrendous relationship or breakup or whatever it could still work to say 10 minutes to tell me and then you draw a line and move on.
[00:08:48] Yes absolutely. So that was letting people know in a polite way that that's that's what is required now.
[00:08:56] Exactly. But also I guess as we reach that as we reach our 50s and beyond and we go through different life stages maybe we need also to introduce new friends into our lives.
[00:09:09] Definitely. And I think women are quite good at making new friends men tend to be less if they distrust other guys.
[00:09:18] But they are not so open to meet new genuine pals. Whereas women will do yoga classes or classes or take up art or do mini workshops and retreats and things and sometimes the community of people that you meet in those events can be very very heartwarming and real. And you do want to see that person afterwards. And you've shared an experience and a whole new social scene can open up with a fresh new friend because you're starting the new new hobbies and new directions in your life. And with that comes new people that you meet along the way and I think that's one of the joys of life now is that so many hobbies, courses ,options, workshops, retreats experiences that you can go on and you're with like minded people in the room already.
[00:10:05] You've got a community of people who have similar interests to you. Something I've done recently I've started locally and just a book club with a couple of friends and we agree that all bring another friend that wasn't known to us. No it was I didn't know the other people friends. Yeah and through it I actually had some really nice times. But what's nice about that is there is very much that everybody takes the turn to host. We just do cheese and nibbles and things and the host chooses the book for the next week or whatever or the next month rather but then you've got a topic of conversation to keep the evening off. So you might start off talking about the book which could lead into all sorts of other things. Yeah. There's not a lot of gossipy evening at all. And you end up discussing really interesting things and learning things about people's lives as they relate to those storylines in the book that you wouldn't otherwise have known. And I think that's another really nice way I think to meet people so much.
[00:11:01] Something I recommend my clients not because it's inexpensive and a fun way of broadening your literary choices and listening to people.
[00:11:12] Yeah I mean we have had I guess some disappointing books and you have to accept when you do that you're not going to enjoy every single book that's chosen. As you said they introduce you to new authors and they may introduce you to new people as well.
[00:11:25] Absolutely yes that's a good one.
[00:11:28] So and I mean from your perspective when you work with your clients Carolewhat they can when it comes to friendship is what are the key issues that they find they'd like to discuss with you about friendship.
[00:11:41] I think there's a lot of loneliness at the moment. And that doesn't mean that you haven't got friends. It's not just single women in their fifties either. They've never met the right guy or they're divorced or single mums and the children are moving away and there's a sense of loneliness.
[00:12:00] I.e. if you got a lot of married friends at weekends so about you don't get to meet up your friends if they're with their families. Also Facebook although really good for connection can make you feel very lonely and feel that you're not living the big life and that you're on holiday or surrounded by other people and thumbs up at the camera. Everyone's having a fantastic time and you're feeling a little bit depressed and at home and thinking gee you my life's so rubbish compared with my friends so it's a bit of social anxiety and loneliness that can come from that. Bizarrely from the connection with social media you have to be careful what you look at there. So sometimes I ask my clients to have a sort of social media detox where they don't keep them on their phones Twitter Facebook and Instagram to see how that one else's lifestyle. You don't quite match up. The other thing is having the courage to try new things if you if you are stuck then then you go out and go to go to workshops and volunteer and help with green issues. There are many many things you can do to meet new people. The other one is usually that the women with no boundaries I they're very nice and might be slightly introverted can get walked over to know by the domineering friends who expect them to pick them up from the airport look after their kids or become a bit of a spare hand unpaid staff sort of thing so sometimes by working with clients it's helping them to establish confident strong boundaries and to be able to speak up and be assertive without being rude. But what happens when you do that is you actually get increased respect and people like you more when you when you stop people convincing others to say they understand that you're a person with their own needs and your own opinions and they must be respected not to just be railroaded over.
[00:13:55] We have intrinsically with a lot of women we are people pleasers aren't we in all areas of life whether that's work, relationships and also in friendships.
[00:14:05] Absolutely. And you know friendships can come at any time and in many cases be open to that.
[00:14:11] And also some friendships just naturally do have their own shelf life. But not everyone is supposed to be a friend for life. No. You know we say you had a really really fantastic and fun colleague and your whole thing was giggling at the boss and sending each other's notes and bringing cakes in and going out for lunch together. That might not be have any relevance when you leave to go to another job and you see that person again and you think it doesn't really work outside of the office. And we've moved on I've moved on sometimes status envy can come in as well. You know you marry your friends dont, you lose weight, your friends are larger they resent you, you've gone on a fantastic holiday they stay. So sometimes they can be sort of petty rivalries in the friendships as well which can tear people apart.
[00:15:05] All sorts of things as we as we grow and change over the years out how we are affects how other people relate to us. Do you want to take up salsa dancing and meet some fantastic new guy and all your friends are sort of thinking well we don’t really relate to us. Well how can she do that. You start to feel alienated from some of your core group of friends because you're spending and growing.
[00:15:30] I saw a quote once which I think I probably shared at some point which said friends that come into your life for a reason a season or for life. And I think that's so true isn't it.
[00:15:39] Absolutely. And never let them go. And you know just recently because of the dreaded or much loved Facebook last year around about this time of year I was walking down the street got a ping on my phone someone I hadn't spoken to or seen for about 27 years contacted me and said Hi how are you.
[00:15:59] And we've seen each other so much this year we can't even remember how or why we fell apart or whatever got in the way of our friendship. It's been fantastic having her back and I have sort of missed her at first. I really can't remember what natural split was. There's no acrimony between us there's no looking back have a meeting see her tonight actually. And what a fantastic thing. Twenty five years to 27 years after we're back in touch that probably wouldn't have happened if there wasn't such a thing as social media.
[00:16:30] When you could use literally inquiries in the yellow pages that people remarry and move on and then have the same names anymore. So it's really good keep contact with people we haven't seen for years.
[00:16:41] I absolutely think that's a really sort of nice way to reconnect to sort of and have that friendship I guess flourish and grow again isn't it.
[00:16:50] Yeah I mean you know it's always something that you still have in common and you can laugh about the past but you can also sort of look at each other or think wow I did this 25 years ago when I didn't even know she had a daughter.
[00:17:01] She didn't know I have two children means a lot to catch up on still.
[00:17:07] So have you got three top tips there when it comes to female, I guess we're talking female friendships here aren't we. But I guess it could apply to you know other sorts of friendships as well but primarily sort of I guess female friendships. Three top tips. Would you be able to offer. In relation to what? Three top tips. Just in relation to th I guess managing your friendships when it comes to this stage of our lives over 50. Well what do you think is interesting in friendship I think don't expect too much from one person just like we expect so much from our partner.
[00:17:40] Which often is unreasonable don't expect too much from one really good friend.
[00:17:46] I have what I call a complete composite friends or patchwork of friends of. I go to Kew Gardens. That's all we do. She doesn't drink alcohol. She doesn't eat out in restaurants. We go to Kew Gardens we have a lovely walk around and I have book club friends I have someone I always go to the cinema with always I have my Prosecco boozy night friends I have one that is my absolute confidant and it's bottle of wine around her house and food parcels and doggie bags when times are tough. So you know I have friends you don't have to be everything to you don't have to try for one friend every exhibition every phone call every little thing that goes wrong in your life have different friends for different things. So I think that's the first one and just enjoy that area with them. The second one is to fully accept that sometimes people do drift away for whatever reason and it can be very very hurtful actually when a best friend goes. It's almost as bad as a marriage. You feel that your confidant has gone and it could be very very heartbreaking. The thing is people go and move away for different reasons. Let them go and be grateful for the time that you had. You never know why they went and they very well may come back to you. And the third one is keep an open mind to always meetng new. I've people on a train and that's literally the Piccadilly line in London going in I liked a book someone was reading , started chatting to her. I told her I was a life coach. I dealt with books like that and we had a coffee. Some months after she contacted me remember I was the girl on the train. So you never know who you're sitting next to be brave. You know we're over 50 now a bit more confident a bit more sassiness about us reach out. You never know who whose hands you might take.
[00:19:36] No. That's right. You never know where you're going to meet new friends in life do you know. Well thank you very much for sharing all that with us today. And if people want to contact you what is the best way for them to get in touch.
[00:19:52] Well it's probably best to just Google me on Carole Ann Rice or my company is called the Real Coaching Company and my academy is Pure Coaching Academy. If you want to train to become a life coach in women over 50 make brilliant life coaches check out Pure Coaching Academy or or just google me as a life coach Carole Anne Rice.
[00:20:12] Thank you so much for joining us today and for sharing your thoughts and friendship with that about 50 audience. Thank you Carole. Thank you Ceri.
[00:20:25] So I'd love it if you would subscribe to the channel share the link with your friends. But then we can all be fab after 50 together.
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Ceri Wheeldon of Fab after Fifty interviews Jacynth Bassett , founder of online pro-age premium online boutique
the Bias-Cut.com
In this episode we chat about ageism in the fashion industry
Why retailers and designers fail to cater for women over 50.
Why some retailers are now recognising the spending power of women over 50
Why 'rules' of what to wear over 50 are outdated
What items are the best investment pieces for women over 50
Where we can find style inspiration over 50
How to best shop online for clothes
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Full transcript:
[00:00:04] I'm Ceri Wheeldon. Welcome to the Fab after Fifty podcast. Leading the pro age conversation talking about all things life after 50.
[00:00:16] I have with me today my special guest Jacynth Bassett . Jacynth is the founder of the first pro age online premium fashion boutique the bias-cut.com. And she's also fighting ageism. She's an ageism fighting trailblazer. Hello and welcome to Fab after 50.
[00:00:35] Hi Ceri. It's a pleasure to be talking to you.
[00:00:38] Now I know we've had lots of conversations haven't we away from this podcast about how the fashion industry hasn't really caught up with reality how women over 50 actually see ourselves and how we like to dress today.
[00:00:50] Yes. Yeah well I mean I think we're seeing it slowly changing I think largely because the fashion industry is cottoning on to the fact that midlife women have disposable income but it's still very gradual and it's all quite tokenistic and I think even when we see older women featured in campaigns because we are seeing that a bit more now, we are,
[00:01:19] There are more than when I first started.
[00:01:20] Yes. And same with me. And so it is getting there. But if we notice they often the models beautiful as they are often look the same. They are often quite tall slim Caucasian with silver hair and a lot of women over 50 are not like that. And additionally as I often say to brand that's the thing that the issue is not just about featuring that woman in a campaign it's got to be authentic and understanding that customer has to be in every aspect of the business. So often you might for example go online and I've seen an older woman the campaign put their whole website is still using younger models. And you've also got the fact that a lot of there's also the lack of understanding of the customer in terms of her body shape her lifestyle. So you can say you're catering to women all you want by putting in an older model in it but doesn't mean actually that the average older woman over 50 wants to want to wear these clothes and that it will really understand her figure. So it is really a deeper issue than the way the fashion industry is treating it right now.
[00:02:26] Yes and actually interestingly enough I received a press release today from somebody that these dresses that we know are great for older women as well.
[00:02:33] Well I'd wear them as tops together but I think it's so short I might wear a tunic top that is no way I feel out in that particular sort of style.
[00:02:41] I mean would be. Exactly. And it's completely misunderstanding really the fact that women want to dress stylishly. They want to feel confident feel contemporary. But it doesn't mean they're going to suddenly wear everything that 20 year olds wear or in the same way that she would wear. And as you say I mean there's often I find it with designers they almost look at me with sort of shock when I say but this isn't going to work. Maybe it's the neckline or you know something to do with it's unflattering around the middle and they just don't understand it. And it's unfortunate it comes down to the fact that there's still I think a lot of it is rooted in education. But even designers at fashion school a lot of them are still only really designing for younger women so they don't understand that there is a different customer out there and that they need to be catered to in a slightly different way.
[00:03:33] Oh absolutely. I mean on the same side as I was when I was younger I'm very fortunate in that.
[00:03:38] But my body shape has changed. So you have to look at things so you known simply say sleeve length, better sleeve patterns cut for the upper arms . And also things like where the darts are placed.
[00:03:49] Exactly. I mean I think is often a problem. Yes. I mean I think that you know busts often with gaping and also sleeves. I mean we talked about that though about the difficulty to find sleeves. And it's just understanding their lifestyle as much as anything else as well. Now you want to be going dressed up nicely maybe to go to dinner or to theatre or something. Now you might go to the club but it's you know fewer women over 50 I think go to a nightclub. So again it's a completely different lifestyle and it's different priorities and values that need to be understood.
[00:04:29] And also if you think they should absolutely appreciate the spending power that our generation have now perhaps because the kids have flown the nest et cetera as opposed to younger women who are sort of investing in growing their careers and also bringing up families.
[00:04:44] Yeah I think that's one thing that's driving force behind why we're seeing more inclusivity and that is to do with spending power. You know I know quite a few brands who when I first approached so I first first came up the idea of the bias cu in 1212 so really back then we were seeing very little when I started developing the business after university in 2014 it was still an issue and even bigger than it is right now and a lot of designers were very dismissive of me and the concept if you even when I muttered the word over 40 they were horrified and kept saying you about our clothes are pretty cool. They can know a lot of our customers are younger and that's fine. I'm not saying that they're not but why can't you be cool over 40. And interestingly quite a few of them have now completely changed their tune and say that they're very inclusive. They feature older women their campaigns and I think. I think it obviously I don't know personally but I think sadly whether it's a good or bad thing I mean it's happening but it is likely it's because of the spending power. I think you know more younger millennials the young professionals I don't know many people who can spend a lot of money at my age you know particularly with the housing you know they won't get on the property ladder more than anything so they don't have the income that maybe 20 30 years ago even someone younger did have and and also there's the fact that I do think that we have people who their kids have left. And again they want to dress differently to how but in their 50s to how their parents did. So it's all the more to do with I think though spending power.
[00:06:38] Yeah I have to say that I mean a few years ago I was I was at a trade show for the fashion industry. Yeah and I was on one particular brand and there was some sort of dress at that I thought was ideal for a feature which I was doing a for a wedding guest special occasional wear. Yeah. And they're really happy to give you me photograph. Until I gave them my card. Right. They said no way. They did not want these clothes as being suitable for the 50s. They said we are targeting that you know the 20s and 30s market. We don't want those women to think that somebody over 50 is wearing the same dress. I think they were against it.
[00:07:15] I think as you said it's changing but it's slow to change.
[00:07:20] It's an interesting thing because you know with the bias cut the whole thing is that the pieces that we sell can work on any age but our curation is focused on championing the 50 plus woman, So there is a way. Yes there is a way. Yeah but what's interesting is that I still have people who who are younger. We do have customers who are younger but there are customers who are younger who are gonna go oh I could really wear this stuff. In shock and I have friends who have dismissed even looking at the website and then when I'll turn up to a party wearing something that you know we sell they'll be really surprised that it's from the web site. And so there is this divide and this idea that is off putting for younger women to see old women in the same clothes and we need to get to a point where it really shouldn't matter the age of the person wearing the clothes at all. If you just if they're nice clothes and they've stylish that's what you appreciate. And I think we are slowly getting that with other people such as Iris Apfel and Helen Mirren and a lot of fantastic actresses over 50 who are very stylish. And so it is having an impact on the younger generation seeing older women can dress beautifully and get older. But as you say there's still this concern in particular amongst designers from a branding perspective that as soon as they are identified with an older customer that younger customer won't be interested. And I know of designers who have turned down A-list celebrities for wearing pieces at huge award ceremonies because they didn't want it associated with an old customer because they thought it would damage their reputation of being cool . And for some reason and I actually think that the more millennials are coming up to the fact that that's not the case much.
[00:09:18] I think it's actually the fashion industry. And often their PR and the branding the marketing advisers who are slightly behind.
[00:09:26] I think there's an education process in some ways.
[00:09:30] Yeah absolutely. I think at all ages. I mean why one of the things that I get oftentimes is why do you care about ageism you're only 26. And my answer is why shouldn't I care about something. It might not directly impact me right now but it's the same as saying a march in Cairo about women's rights just because he's not a woman. And also ageism is the only ism that actually will affect every single person. So we need to be educating everybody it shouldn't just be a topic of conversation for people over 50 it needs be a conversation for all ages.
[00:10:05] Totally agree. So I mean in terms of buying clothes. Why do you think we need to pick sites such as yourself. Easier for us to buy. Why can't we just go into top shop or go to top shop online and buy our clothes.
[00:10:22] Well as I said it's a lot to do with understanding body shape more than anything else and lifestyle. I think obviously there are pieces that are out there in other shops but it can be a very long somewhat demoralising experience trawling through them and not finding the pieces that work. And it makes the midlife women feel secondary and that's not right. They should feel just as important and just as empowered as somebody younger. So that's why I think we need websites but I don't want I don't think they should be exclusive in terms of saying you know women who are younger can't wear these pieces. That's my view and similar with other brands and makeup. I don't think they should be exclusive but I think what they need to be doing is championing that woman treating her as the primary customer so that she feels wanted and she feels valued and at the moment because we don't have that in the shops and a lot online. That's why we need to have websites that do do the opposite and actually pioneer change.
[00:11:29] And when we look at and talk about that change and the kinds of clothes we want to wear I know that when I go back even 10 years everybody kept calling me about rules things like women over 50 shouldn't wear jeans, women over 50 shouldn't wear skirts above the knee. women over 50 shouldn't wear high heels, women over 50 definitely shouldn't wear bikinis though. Personally I don't know think you should any rules and wear what you feel comfortable with that. Great. Are you finding that when you go to talk to designers etc. they still think there are rules.
[00:12:03] I think to be perfectly honest not as much because they are often still not even considering that customer enough. If I'm honest I think if I was presented with designers who say these are the rules I'd at least find that somewhat encouraging that they are even considering that customer. But they do.
[00:12:24] there are assumptions made that women won't wear certain things or won't wear prints or a cut. And I do know designers who would point or might cater to ladies but will usher the slightly older customer towards certainly the more boring, frumpier garments I think generally I mean it's like I'm with you.
[00:12:52] I don't believe in any of these rules as I think what I find sad is that actually I have a lot of women customers who recite them because they I often hear people saying Oh I know this rule and I shouldn't wear that. And that's what I find quite sad is that they have been led to believe that they have to follow these rules. They don't have the confidence to be able to wear whatever they like and feel good in it and that's I think that's the biggest danger of these articles out there trying to dictate what women shouldn't shouldn't ways actually impacts the customer more than the designers.
[00:13:30] But hopefullly though as you said we've got more more celebrities who wore the A-list now who have leading roles like I'm thinking of like Jennifer Aniston you have Sandra Bullock. Yes. But we they're not going to be invisible. they will break the rules I like to be wearing jeans, wearing hair long the the other thing women over 50 shouldn't have hair below their chins.
[00:13:54] I've written about that. People think about the hair off as soon as they get older.
[00:13:59] Exactly. I mean I think you're very very brave person to actually suggest that to me.
[00:14:01] It's just amazing isn't it that these perceptions still exist but as you say hopefully with more more celebrities who are more I guess more mainstream will help again to address that sort of difference in perception.
[00:14:21] Absolutely. I think you know these are very bankable people who are going to be still in the limelight for many years to come. Most likely they looked up to by people who were much younger as well. And I think they will completely change perception of what somebody over 50 looks like. I mean even looking at someone like Celine Dion she's had a whole style revolution and I really liked the fact that her stylist or Roach he was his second client and his first client was the Nickelodeon star who I think isabout 20 and then the second line is Celine Dion and she's in her 50s and she's had a complete revolution with dressing in fabulous clothes and that's also really encouraging that a stylist is even wanting to work with people like that. But yeah I think also the other slight issue is that there are lots of people who are starting to speak out against ageism but there are still certain somewhat ideologies as to how to age. And I do know brands influencers who are seemingly champions of aging but they're still promoting a very narrow vision of what ageing looks like.
[00:15:42] For example going grey and I think it's great that more and more women feel comfortable going grey if they want to. But again if they want to but there is still nothing wrong with dying your hair.
[00:15:53] If you don't want to go grey and not all of us go grey. I was asked by somebody if I would dye my hair color back to grey to showcase their products and their conditioner and then they would get my hair back to whatever I wanted to afterwards. I only have a few highlights in my hair and I said to my hairdresser I wasn't sure I'd want to subject my hair to that sort of very harsh treatment. Yeah that's a lot of chemicals. A lot of chemicals and he said actually Ceri You haven't got enough grey hair. He said that I have to really look for your grey hair.
[00:16:28] My hair's got darker as I've got older but it hasn't yet gone grey .
[00:16:33] Exactly I mean my mom's similar she she didn't go. She's gotten sort of she had the white bits on the outside of her head that she didn't go way wighty greyy. Well she still isn't really completely. And she's now in her 60s. And as you say I think that it does concern me that I know women have been shamed for not going grey. So it's actually go into the other extreme it's still ageism because ageism is about choice and choice to age. However you want without any external pressure or judgement. And so if we're shaming people for not going grey and seemingly in their view embracing their age it's just as bad. And that's why I think the danger is still with both brands and with communities it's understanding that that should not be the message we're promoting.
[00:17:24] No. I mean this is a big issue. I mean we've been where you're not really part of the sisterhood not because you're not very grey. It's not only me. I'm not naturally grey neither with my grandmother my mother went grey quite young but my grandmother didn't you know in fact she didn't go where she she still wasn't very gray when she died. So it's just I guess it's in your genes isn't it. Yes absolutely. But I can't pretend it's been authentic and I don't have the grey hair. I want to go to have my hair dyed Grey in order to be seen to be part of this new movement where it's all about we're all different. Yeah. We have people who go grey in the early 20s. Exactly. I've got friends who have grey hair. I think the consistency of my hair has changed but the colour of my hair, I'm a bit darker hasn't really. Yeah. So yeah. Yeah. I think again that's almost created a new rule. If you're over 50 you should be grey.
[00:18:24] Yeah exactly. And it's the same as saying you know I'm I'm a believer that there's nothing wrong with having Botox, plastic surgery if you want to. It's a personal choice. Again I think is sad is when I know often actresses talk about the fact they feel they've had to do it in order to remain looking beautiful and that's what's sad. And it's again people get attacked for using Botox and it actually is their decision how they want to live and it's that same with clothing and I had somebody say to me that they didn't approve of us than what we're doing because they don't believe that women as they get older should care about being stylish. It's about their was like yes. And being timeless and classic clothes and going gray and that's just as bad as rejecting this customer because you're still saying that there's only one way a woman who's older can fit in. And so there's a conflict of views but this person an influencer had thousands of followers. And it really concerned me that her followers were going to listen to her views and consider them to be right.
[00:19:36] Because everybody has their own opinion isn't it. And it's just something whether or not you're strong enough as an individual to actually have your own opinion as well and say well that's alright. That's your opinion. But you know I think slightly differently.
[00:19:48] I mean I think the thing is is that confidence is a key problem particularly as women get older in terms of their image. Like a lot of women say to me that they've lost that confidence. Maybe they had other priorities children work whatnot. And they kind of want to find himself again. And I think the reason that the rules we mean obviously the ideal is that we can respect people's opinion and we can decide for ourselves for them or not. But because women are being made to feel so irrelevant by the fashion industry. The beauty industry as they get older it obviously damages confidence. You know we see that three to five thousand adverts a day. And if the majority of them promote this idea that youth equals beauty then it's no wonder that as women get older they feel less and less good about themselves.
[00:20:40] So I think they some women turn to these rules for guidelines on how to do it how to dress when they view what's right because they're being told this is wrong this is wrong it's wrong and they're afraid of dressing in a way that maybe they just want to do they want to get it right. So I think that's where this confidence issue that we need to turn to once we can eradicate this feeling that women are more visible more relevant then hopefully they can feel more empowered to make their own decision on how they want to dress and look.
[00:21:13] And I think also when the right thing I believe can give me more confidence because we all know what it's like if you have a bout of flu whatever you feel really awful. But as soon as you feel a bit better and you sort of look in the mirror you shall put your make on wear a brighter colour you kind of feel better as well.
[00:21:30] And to exactly I mean it's like the whole adage of the lucky pants that you put on your lucky underwear and you say properly I'm very unlucky person. Well you see the thing is is that they're obviously not imbued with actual luck. But the fact is you put them on and you probably behave like differently. And I'm a big believer in the strong emotive connection between style and between your mind and your style and how it makes you feel. I think you know fashion is often derided and criticised being superficial and frivolous but in terms of style I think it's actually really important. After all we all wear clothes you put on clothes. It's not you know we make a decision to put on certain clothes in the morning. So there is more of a purpose behind what we wear and a more of a connection. And I really think that it shouldn't be dismissed so readily because even people who say they don't like fashion. Well you do dress in a way that conveys that message.
[00:22:36] And so everything we wear conveys the message. And I think it's very important for us to recognise that and not criticise or ridicule people who do like style and fashion.
[00:22:47] I think also with more and more women over 50 setting up their own businesses there's also still been very much engaged in the workplace. Yes it's all about personal branding as well. People are very making impressions based on the first few seconds that they see you upset what you wear reflects their opinion of you before you even say anything. So as a woman in business you have to look as though you are a woman in business and what you wear has to really reflect the business that you're in you cant ignore the fact that clothing does play a part in that.
[00:23:20] Absolutely. I mean I met a gentleman who said that the reason for gender inequality in the workplace is because women didn't know how to dress properly. And when I obviously challenged him about that he was of the view that women need to be dressing more to blend in when actually lots of women are now want to stand out in business and they need to be wearing that bright jacket that gets remembered. And so obviously I gave him a whole lecture on how sexist his own views were but as you say it's whether we like it or not we are superficial we do judge people by their cover.
[00:23:59] And so we do want to present ourselves to convey who we are or that message whether it's you know I mean business or whether you're feeling sexy or whatever it is. We dress in that way.
[00:24:13] And one of the things I know when it comes to business and or outside of business is that through the website a lot of people commented on the fact that one of the things they do like to do is wear dresses with sleeves. Now I think I've noticed a lot more dresses with leeves generally out there. But why is it that it is so difficult for people to find these in a variety of dresses the sleeves on the high street.
[00:24:38] Yeah I mean I think again it comes back a lot to do with this education. And designers, the problem is is a lot of designers are creative.
[00:24:50] They're not really thinking as much about the commercial side of business they're more about wanting to execute their creative vision. And so a lot of the time they might feel that a sleeve will ruin the overall look of the garment without actually considering the fact that somebody is going to want to wear it eventually. So it's to do with a lot to do with the lines that.
[00:25:11] And then there's also the fact that they often don't understand again about getting them the right width. I know there are pieces that have sleeves but they could be really tight on the arms and uncomfortable. So again its often to understand the education of designers and how they can incorporate sleeves into garments that will look good and cater to the customer. I think as you said we are seeing more sleeve. I think it's partly a trend thing. Actually at the moment at the moment it's quite trendy to have like a long dress with sleeves and a lot of younger women wearing them as well. So whether we will continue to see sleeves. I don't know.
[00:25:54] But I think again it all just comes down to educating designers and brands on how to consider that customer and and not compromise the design but still be able to give her what she wants.
[00:26:09] So I mean in terms of what we do want are there key investment pieces that you see your customers wanting to buy that you would recommend to them that they should actually go out and buy to make sure their wardrobes work for them. And also they do look current.
[00:26:24] Yeah I mean I think it is with us becoming more aware of the damage caused by fast disposable fashion. I think it's increasingly hard to justify going to buy cheap fashion that you probably gonna throw away next season. So a lot of people suggest only investing in core classic pieces whereas I actually believe that time to invest in starting more trendy pieces as long as they feel authentic to your personal style because then they will still look great nest season. So I think my first thing I always say to people is think about reflects you and that's the pieces to invest in. It's better to shop to buy fewer things but things that will last. But when it but in terms of staples that would be great in anyone's wardrobe a great pair of jeans, dark slim fitting jeans I always recommend I always recommend a good blazer because it's just so easy just to throw on. I think a lot of women struggle with this idea of what does smart casual often mean and we all see that in dress codes and I think it gives a little headache thinking oh god what'dd that going to be and I always remember when dress down Friday started
[00:27:34] What do I wear on a Friday and not look as though I'm doing the housework. Exactly. And I always say that the best way to do it is a nice pair of jeans maybe a t shirt and a blazer and you're done. And it's such an easy formula for me so that. And then a few nice t shirts and then obviously I think there's nothing wrong with buying a few pieces that are really beautiful statement garment again if you really love them they will last for years and there will still make you feel good every time you put them on and people there's a lot of women who feel guilty about spending on themselves. Whenever we do pop up shops. Interesting. It;s often husbands who are encouraging their wives to spend and treat themselves when so many of them feel they shouldn't do it. And you know they can see the fact that this makes them feel good and their partner loves that.
[00:28:26] So whenever there isn't anything wrong with saying right this is actually quite an out there piece but actually I'm going to I'm going to invest in it because if it makes you happy that's what's important.
[00:28:35] I couldn't agree more. I got pieces in my wardrobe that I've had for over 20 years that were expensive with individual items but I bought them in fact I have a whole feature written on my pink leather jacket and I get stopped in the street askong where I got it.
[00:28:49] I've had it in 20 years.
[00:28:50] And after all trends come around anyway all the time so things are gonna be back in trend anyway so you know I think what animal print at the moment is so popular but let's be honest I mean I've always loved animal print. So I'm there's nothing I don't have any issue with buying into animal print. I know I'm going to want to wear it in the future.
[00:29:14] I mean I've got loads of animal prints my wardrobe with this is basically am I a secret Bet Lynch. But I've always got animal prints.
[00:29:22] And I think I think also this is this is also a way to shop more consciously and it stops this debate with fast disposable fashion. So I do say yes picking I say less is more in a lot of ways and pieces that just make you feel great.
[00:29:44] I love that she is really interesting is I've noticed that more women are going for those special pieces and they may be buying less but they are actually going for unusual designs rather than your staples because they want to actually wear something that can be fun.
[00:30:02] Interesting. And where can women find inspiration if you're not everybody is on Instagram are they. I mean it's the perception I think by a lot of PR people that women over if you only want to see the influences on Instagram. But I know a lot of my ladies aren't on Instagram.
[00:30:17] No. Yeah I agree I often have this conversation as well. Well I mean I think obviously there is social media Facebook and whatnot. I mean I always encourage going on Pinterest as well. You can. It's a great source of different looks and inspiration. And actually once it fails to give people is if they're worried about making an impact investing in a purchase thinking will this actually go with what got you can even create your own little private boards upload some pictures of your own pieces and work out how it might fit in your wardrobe. So it really is just Pinterest. It's always got so much content on there. I also do encourage looking at blogs and we have a very active blog with ideas and great ideas and inspiration and. I know that a lot of people think print is dead but I actually don't think it is. I still prefer to read magazines and just even looking at pictures of women even on catwalks. It can just give you this little styling idea because often that's what it really comes down to is styling and it could even just be a little tweak with your makeup or a little different way of wearing some jewellery. And I really think that we can use those pictures and imagery and yes we might want to see older women models but that doesn't mean we can't be inspired also by pictures of younger women. So I think there's a lot of inspiration out there. It's just just going and bringing the energy to find it really.
[00:31:58] And in terms of deciding what you want to wear and use online dont you and you have the occasional pop up shop. But I guess we've grown up going into the shop maybe have a day out with a friend and shopping and lunch and maybe a little bit more reluctant to actually buy online especially if you don't know the brand . What would you say to women like me and like other people out there that aren't used to buying online.
[00:32:25] Sure. Well yeah. A lot of people do obviously ask me about that. The fact that we started online and I'm very much of the view that shopping online can be just as enjoyable as shopping in person. It's just a different experience. You know there's almost the excitement of the item turning up like a little gift on your doorstep. One of the biggest concerns is often do with quality and fit. And there are apps and there's technology being developed that are going to try and show you virtual wardrobe how things are going to work on your body. But I think that's still not really going to perfectly work. I think what it's more about is being open minded to all the pieces. And the thing is shipping and delivery and return so is often free. So actually the money you might spend paying for parking tickets goes to your local shopping center will actually be more expensive than just ordering something online and having free or very cheap shipping. And I think you know there are a lot of websites now that are offering really good advice. Basically we with every garment we offer by sizes measurements and also we fit the garments on different shapes of women. So we are able to say you know this is you might want to take a size up if maybe you're larger on the bust for example.
[00:33:45] So you can use the guidelines , quality obviously is a difficult one. Photography can hide a multitude of sins so often that is to do more with understanding the brand you're buying from. But you know if they've got a reputation for quality then you can trust that you can purchase and you'll be happy with garments. Another big concern also is security. I thought that I would always suggest buying for a website that starts with H T T PS which means it's a secure website. Also if they have paypal it's a good indicator of the fact that they've been verified by PayPal. Yes go through company checks with that. I do don't suggest that some people think only PayPal is fine. I actually think you should also look for websites that take card because they have to go through other checks as well, security check. So if you know they take both card and PayPal that you know that they've been really verified.
[00:34:49] And you know often you can if you're really concerned do company checks PayPal at least also offers buyer protection so get a refund if the item is not turned up. But I think now that online is so common it's quite easy to spot where there's a Web site that's going to be legitimate or one that isn't.
[00:35:17] And I think also as I say in terms of the shopping experience obviously this you can't replace the idea of going into a store browsing picking things out but instead you can shop online in a different way. Know you can easily see the pieces again by having the pieces on models that can give you some styling advice as well. You know our stylist works with celebrities like Pru Leith so she styles the pieces and the people who buy the whole look because they can see that it will actually work. They might not have thought they could put these pieces together so it's just a different experience. And as I say and then you receive the item and it can it's like almost getting a little gift in the mail. So I think with the High Street struggling. I think women are limiting themselves if they don't also look online because there is a vast mall online even with the shops that are in the high street. They sell usually more online. So. And you know there's Click and Collect and things like that too. Which makes it very easy to pick up the garments. So I do think people need to be willing to engage with online shopping but it's it's take some gradual steps maybe even you ask some friends who who they currently shop with online who they rate and that can give you some more confidence and trust.
[00:36:40] Right. Well thank you for all of that and thank you so much for joining us today. I think that you know that I think that's so informative and hopefully will inspire women to have more confidence about what they choose to wear and different approaches to where they can buy it.
[00:36:55] Absolutely. You know ultimately things can only hopefully get better as more and more businesses become more aware of this customer. And I think that there's a lot more to come. So it's just having an open mind and people like ourselves are championing older women and I think things they say can only really get better. Absolutely. Thank you so much. Thank you. And just once again your website is the-bias-cut.com. And they could find you there. OK. Thank you. Thank you.
[00:37:37] Thank you for joining us today. Please do subscribe and also send the link to friends and be part of the pro- age conversation. Life really is meant to be fabulous at every age but especially after 50.
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Welcome to the Fab after Fifty Podcast, with Ceri Wheeldon, founder and editor of the Fab after Fifty website
Leading the pro-age conversation providing information and inspiration for women over 50. Introducing a series of interviews with inspirational women or experts who can off the tools and resources to truly make life fabulous over 50.
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Full transcript:
Welcome to the Fab after Fifty podcast. Leading the pro age conversation. I'm Ceri Wheeldon and ten years ago I set up the website, FabafterFifty.co.uk to provide resources and inspiration to women over 50, primarily because I believe women should feel and be fabulous at every age. Not fade into the background and become invisible. Over the past 10 years, we've covered topics as diverse as combating ageism in the workplace, becoming an empty nester, reinventing your life, the menopause, style, health, fitness, writing your first book , Setting up a business and genuinely thriving through life's changes over 50. Now I've spoken to so many inspirational women who have shared their own experiences or their own reinvention stories, or who are experts in various fields that can really help us to make the best of this stage of our lives. And I thought it would be fabulous to actually start sharing these moving forward in a new Fab After 50 podcast. So please join me in the coming weeks and months as we discuss all things fabulous over 50.So please subscribe to the channel and forward the link to a friend. Why even think about being invisible when life over 50 is fabulous.
