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In this episode, Craig Dalton and Justin Bowes reflect on the lead-up to the Unbound Gravel 200 race, sharing insights into the unique training approach adopted to prepare for the challenging event. They discuss the strategic training block, the importance of quality over quantity, utilizing power meters for training effectiveness, and the significance of recovery in a compressed time frame. The conversation dives into the pivotal four-day mini camp, highlighting the benefits of stacking workload and the nuances of balancing intervals and endurance rides.
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Key themes include strategically structuring training around time constraints, leveraging prior endurance experience, the impact of power meter training, optimizing recovery for peak performance, and the mental challenges faced leading up to a formidable gravel race like Unbound.
Key Takeaways:Strategic training plans can be tailored effectively to accommodate time constraints and previous endurance experience.
Balancing interval workouts with endurance rides is crucial for building strength and endurance for challenging events.
Utilizing power meters can provide valuable insights into training progress and help optimize performance.
Adequate recovery periods are essential for the body to absorb training load effectively, leading to improved performance.
Mental preparation and breaking down the race into manageable segments can help athletes.
Transcript:
[00:00:00] - (): Craig Dalton: Justin, welcome back to the show,
[00:00:02] - (): Justin Bowes: Craig. Thank you for having me. It's good to see you again.
[00:00:05] - (): Craig Dalton: Post Unbound. We did it.
[00:00:07] - (): Justin Bowes: That's right. You did it. Yeah, you did it a big way.
[00:00:12] - (): Craig Dalton: I appreciate you coming on board and being my muse to help me tell my story. I feel like you were an integral part of my life for a while this year.
**** - (): In our last episode, we talked about kind of what the run up to my non cycling related vacation looked like. And maybe we pick up the story post that vacation.
[00:00:33] - (): Justin Bowes: Sure. Yeah, it was, we discussed on the, on the first pod that, we, we were having a little bit uncharacteristic buildup, um, not only because you had some, prior work, obligations with, as far as travel, but we were starting quite late, um, as well.
**** - (): So we had to, be a little creative in how we wanted to, to approach your training. So, right when you were, uh, leaving, we had really built up your training load, um, because obviously we knew that you were going to be leaving and you're gonna have time off the bike. You weren't gonna be.
**** - (): Completely immobile. I mean, you were, we're going to be able to, do some running and walking and some lifting and, and, um, a few stationary bike sessions in there and things like that, but it's not the most ideal unbound training, especially when you're training for the 200 and. We're only a couple months into it or, a couple of months out from it, I should say.
**** - (): And so, uh, the thought behind, how I wanted to structure your training was to take advantage of the, the, the amount of time that you did not have to train. And so where a traditional buildup would have multiple big ride days on the weekends, um, not only that, but then also, during the week, You would have your meat and potato interval session, but also bookend it with some big endurance rides on the front and the back end of it, but you just didn't have that available to you.
**** - (): So, um, I needed to make sure that we were going to take advantage of not only the lack of time that you had available to you, but also you're, you're no stranger to endurance, um, athletics. So you had a background that I could work with. And that makes all the difference. If you were just coming to me off the street and say, Hey, can you get me ready?
**** - (): And less than four months, for a 200 mile gravel race, the hardest 200 mile gravel race in the world. It would, that would be a different story, but thankfully you, you had some background in endurance, so it wasn't. A foreign concept to your body.
[00:02:48] - (): Craig Dalton: It was interesting in my training block leading up to Cuba because we really didn't do a lot of meaningfully long rides, but I also understood like, I'd never really done meaningful intervals before.
**** - (): And clearly like the workouts you were prescribing to me that were one hour in duration. Pretty tired afterwards. Like I felt like I really gassed myself because now that we're looking at a power meter and we're really saying it's not like perceived level of exertion. It's like, here's the exertion you need to achieve.
**** - (): Um, and it was really, I mean, frankly, it was like, I was burying myself on a lot of those workouts, which was very different than anything I'd been done doing in the, the decade before, to be honest.
[00:03:32] - (): Justin Bowes: Right. Right. And I mean, it's, it's the old adage, quality over quantity. And again, I, I keep coming back to, the time crunch.
**** - (): I mean, that's what we were up against. And so I really wanted to make sure that, the lead up to your trip to Cuba, but then also once you get back, we added enough low to you. to your training so that, um, the break was needed. And so your body would be able to absorb all of that load while you're gone because, yes, you would still be active, but you weren't training.
**** - (): And so it allowed your body to recover from all that. And by the way, Um, Craig did an amazing job, um, of hitting all of his workouts. Like, I want to say there's less than a handful that were just kind of like, didn't nail them perfectly, but it wasn't for the lack of trying by any means. Um, and so, um, with that, and you brought up the point too, it's just like, you've never trained with power before, and so there was just, that was just another element to the training that we had to kind Yeah. implement. It wasn't like, Oh yeah, I've been training for years with power. So I know what my zones are and why and all of that. So kind of helping coach you through, the use of the power meters and, and the importance of that.
**** - (): I think it gave us a really good detailed picture of where the training was going and you could see. Yeah. and ultimately feel, yourself getting stronger, after each week, things just got better and better and better. So once you got back into the country, then it was time to start, we'll continue on the interval workouts, but we're going to start introducing, the longer sessions as well.
[00:05:21] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, yeah. And I remember like I definitely felt tired when I left for that week off, um, and unfortunately not incredibly refreshed after my quote unquote vacation, because there's a lot of running around with the family, but coming back and looking at the training calendar, we had a couple of things up in the air, but we knew like that next six weeks was going to be a big build of long rides, endurance rides, and continuing on some of the interval work.
[00:05:47] - (): Justin Bowes: Right, right. And so, had, had things been different as far as scheduling of the trip and things like that, we may have flipped the script a little bit and did all of your big rides be, on the front end, and then do all the more structured training, the higher, shorter, sharper stuff on the back end.
**** - (): But I just felt like with your background and what we wanted to accomplish with Unbound, um, it was better for us to, to stack those. shorter, sharper workouts on the front end and then give yourself time to relax or, absorb. And then once you came back and we figured out, some pieces as far as like, Hey, when can we get out and do back to back big rides?
**** - (): And I want to talk about that too, because I think it was really important, um, in the buildup, um, for the race, um, those, those four days of just, some really good rides, but it, it, it, It was working and from my standpoint, I could see, the fatigue building, but your recovery was also taking, it was, it was working as well, and so it was like, we'd stack the work on you.
**** - (): But then the recovery days were structured so that, those. again, your body absorbs that work. And the cool thing with watching you is he can, you, Craig, he can handle a lot of work, so I'd be looking at your workouts, every day. And I'm like, he's, he's doing this, like he's actually absorbing all this workload.
**** - (): And that's where it was really starting to fuel my confidence. And what you were going to be able to, um, accomplish at Unbound was, not only is he nailing all these workouts, but he's also recovering on the backside of it too. And that was just, again, it was fueling my confidence for you to egg you on to say, Craig, you can do this.
**** - (): Like we're in a really good position. And I didn't want to get down into all the weeds with you as far as like what I was seeing, right? Right. Because ultimately it's just like, I just want Craig, you to understand you can do this. So it was really cool from my standpoint to see.
[00:08:03] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. It's interesting. As you talk about, like, if, if we had given more time that you might've done the longer rides earlier and then that kind of high performance stuff later, right.
**** - (): I kind of feel like I might've struggled with confidence With that approach, even though like, obviously I would've had massive workouts six weeks back.
[00:08:24] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah, yeah. . But I
[00:08:25] - (): Craig Dalton: kind of, I kind of like the, the idea that we were progressively testing me Yes. On these harder and harder weekends towards the end.
**** - (): Right?
[00:08:34] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. And I, and definitely by design , but at the same time it, it, it worked out, I think, better than I even. had hoped for because, again, in theory and on paper, I'm looking at what I want you to do, but ultimately it's what can your body and, now that we're getting deeper into it, what can your mind and your body do?
**** - (): Handle. And so that's where, that's where, the coaching science and the coaching art kind of, blur the lines together of like, okay, this is what I expect him to be able to do, but this is what I'm seeing him, doing. And it's just, it's a really cool kind of blend of, the science and the art coming together.
**** - (): And again, it just stokes my confidence. And hopefully that comes across in my communication with you is like, I'm really excited. I can see this happening. And this is why I believe that you're going to be able to, perform this, um, crazy, crazy event. So
[00:09:39] - (): Craig Dalton: yeah, I think what was good for both of us was knowing that, and I'd said to you early on, knowing that I kind of put myself and you behind the eight ball starting late.
**** - (): Yes. But that, I had this, I could make a four day. Kind of mini camp whenever we needed it in May as like this option to really kind of do some big volume.
[00:10:01] - (): Justin Bowes: Right, right. And that was, that kind of gave me, that was kind of one of those moments of like, okay, good, at least. We, we, we've got it to where, it's in our back pocket.
**** - (): I've got that card to play. Um, it's going to lend itself really well. And, fortunately it was, you were really flexible on, when that could actually happen. And that, that definitely makes a, a big impact because, within the month of an event like, the 200.
**** - (): Like, we can't miss days. We can't, there's like no makeup days or anything. And each day is just that much more important for the next and the next and the next, and. Um, yeah, having you be able to go out and just knock out these four days of, big rides and, when we were talking about how we were going to do that, when a lot of, I don't want to say a lot, when, when most people have that kind of that opening of like, Hey, I'm going to do a, a mini camp, whether it's a long, four day weekend or in the middle of the week, however it works out, they're so excited to go and put in the big miles, they're, they've got free time.
**** - (): They've got the, the hall pass to go and just train. That's awesome. That's great. But the biggest mistake made by most people that do that is. They go out and do a seven or eight hour ride, on day one, and they're not used to that. And on day two, day three, they're just like, yeah, two hours here, three hours there, whatever.
**** - (): And if that, because they just completely blew themselves to the moon on day one and weren't ready for that. And so, so I prescribed to you that we'll just stair step ourself into the, into that block so that. We get the most bang for our buck out of that, that mini block of training. And. It worked.
**** - (): It worked well.
[00:12:03] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, I think that was definitely a critical weekend for me. I think I rode four hours kind of mixed terrain with a buddy of mine on Thursday, four, maybe five hours on Friday and then eight and a half or nine on Saturday and followed up by two or three on Sunday.
[00:12:21] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah, that was, again, it was, it was a big, um, big chunk of time in the saddle.
**** - (): Um, and it was a big, um, bite on your end. I mean, to take, to, to put in that much time, but again, it just, it, it just speaks to the training that we did leading into it helped. your body absorb those big days. And once you, once you came out of that, to me, like I didn't want to, I didn't want to like pile on just like the raw, raw cheerleader, like, Oh my God, he's going to do this sort of thing.
**** - (): I, I was, I was, I internally, like on this side of the screen, I was like, hell yeah. Like this is, this is going to work. Like he, he's going to He's going to do okay at this.
[00:13:12] - (): Craig Dalton: I think I got a hell yeah. In the comments and training peaks,
[00:13:15] - (): Justin Bowes: you probably did. Yeah,
[00:13:17] - (): Craig Dalton: that's sad. I think that for me, that Saturday ride was the one that I reflected on, on game day, because it was 10, 000 feet plus of climbing in.
**** - (): Very, very challenging terrain. Like in fact, like I forgot, cause I don't go so far north as much like coming across pine mountain and up San Geronimo Ridge, things that the locals around here might understand, like it was just super rocky and this was like six, seven hours into the day that I hit just these trails that I just forgot how steep they are and how rocky they are.
**** - (): So when I came home from that. And was able to get on the bike the next day. I was like, okay, like it was only 77 miles and I'm doing a 200 mile race, but I did the elevation and I can guarantee some of those miles were a lot harder to come by than what I'd experienced in Kansas.
[00:14:13] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. Um, I mean, just quickly for the listeners, just kind of given, give them some numbers behind the, uh, that particular ride.
**** - (): I'll, I'll preface this by saying, even the professionals in the 200, they're not going to be able to go out and mimic. an exact 200 mile, day. And so it's just, it's just, that's a big day for anybody. And so if you can get in, for you, we're, we're targeting, like, we had the kind of the, um, beat the sun, uh, goal.
**** - (): Hey, I'd like to get in, under 15 hours, just a couple, just high level. This is kind of what I want to do. So when you were able to clock in at over eight and a half hours in the saddle with, over 10, 000 feet of climbing. And coming in with a TSS of over 400 in under 80 miles, that's a big day.
**** - (): And you're right. It's it's it, of course it's not, a hundred miles or even 125 miles or anything like that. Like, most people will, who do the 200 who have serious training behind them. They're going to be pushing that 150 mile, training day on one of, on their last big.
**** - (): Uh, training block, but you being able to get out there and produce the power that you did, the load that you were able to accumulate and the efficiency. I should note, the efficiency factor that you were able to, um, uh, complete this ride in again, it was just like, it's just pure gold in the bank, like, not even cash, like gold, like, it's solid, it's, it's, it's tangible, like, he's going to be able to reflect on this ride when things maybe get a little dark in Kansas and be able to say, I, Look what I did.
**** - (): Like, I can do that. And so when you have a ride like that, Craig, it's, it's, it's really good. Um, and it's, it's hard to quantify from a coaching perspective to an athlete until they actually do it of like what that truly means, um, to the end goal.
**** - (): Yeah, yeah, I think it's so important
[00:16:24] - (): Craig Dalton: to have those just tough tough days to reflect back on and put in the bank and I feel like when I, when I got to Kansas, I had sort of maybe a 90 percent confidence interval on my ability to complete the event. I knew, as you said before, I knew that I had Done everything that was asked of me pretty put a pretty solid effort in, but there was always that little bit in my mind saying, like, I've never ridden in Kansas.
**** - (): I don't know what the terrain's like, and I've certainly never ridden more than 130 miles. Right?
[00:17:00] - (): Justin Bowes: Right. And that brings up an interesting, question that I don't know. I've, I don't think I've posed to you since to to unbound, but like, mentally. That week leading into it, where was your head at? Like you, you've touched on like, Hey, I've never ridden in Kansas.
**** - (): I've never ridden the 200 miles, kind of speak to, mentally where, where you were at leading into the race that like that week of.
[00:17:27] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. I think it was a little bit all over the place. Like I started seeing footage of the actual terrain and I started actually, let me step back for a second.
**** - (): They talked about the North course being chunky. And when I think about chunky, I think about where I ride at home, but I realized in retrospect, it's chunky at home, but 15 percent grades
[00:17:50] - (): Justin Bowes: and
[00:17:50] - (): Craig Dalton: Kansas chunky is chunky, but 6 percent grade, so it felt a lot different. Um, so that's a point on the chunkiness.
**** - (): And then second, I started to see some of the more, um, minimum a maintenance roads and they had these great dual tracks that. We're pretty hard pack. Yeah. And I was, I was definitely conscious that conditions could change and good God, if you were in the Facebook group, the, the amount of meteorologists that came out of the woodwork was pretty insane that week leading in, but there's definitely some rain on the calendar.
**** - (): Right. Yeah.
[00:18:23] - (): Justin Bowes: No, I just felt like I may have oversold, um, the northbound course as being as chunky and technical, um, but I think, I'd rather you go in. With a higher level of like, Oh, okay.
**** - (): This could be pretty rough. Um, as opposed to, Oh yeah, the North course is fine. Yeah, it gets chunky in sections, overall it's fine. But then you get there and you're like, Whoa, I was, you did not warn me about this. You did not, my expectation was down here. And now it's like, what is happening?
**** - (): I
[00:18:55] - (): Craig Dalton: think what it left you with, Justin was just an awareness of. This could go wrong for my equipment if I'm not careful. And I'll get into a little bit once we start talking about the ride itself, like how I rode the race.
[00:19:10] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. Um,
[00:19:11] - (): Craig Dalton: but once I got to, I, I got out to Kansas on Wednesday night, got to Emporia on Thursday, did my first group shakeout ride for 15 miles on Thursday, actually in the rain.
**** - (): Um, Start, it was nice to just get the bike on the dirt out there and start to get a sense for it. You start to understand, in any grid shaped race or race course, the 90 degree corners are what you have to be aware of because Right, while you may have good dual tracks when you're coming around a corner, it, it can be very much marbley, kind of gravel in the middle.
**** - (): So it was good to sort of just. Test the cornering a little bit, so to speak.
[00:19:53] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah, it's, yeah, a lot of gravel races. You just have that natural, flow of the course and, and everything, but yeah, out in Emporia, it truly is. a hard right, a hard left, and, and, if you get out of that line, um, or, you, you find yourself, drifting out of that corner or out of the race line and into the, the, the sides of the course.
**** - (): Yeah. It can get, it can get pretty chunky and it's, and not only that or loose too, but not only that is just the amount of. Shrapnel being thrown up at you, with that, that many cyclists, on a course, um, yeah, it's, it's tough.
[00:20:40] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, exactly. So then Friday I hooked up with the, my, my crew in the house.
**** - (): I was staying with shout out to Doug Bucko and Phil. Uh, we did a little ride in the town we were staying in and then I went into the, um, the meat, mandatory media event. Yeah. That lifetime was holding, and it was interesting because I did glean some perspective there as well, because they talked about how they felt like the first 28 miles of this race was going to be incredibly fast and actually that turned out to be a useful tidbit.
**** - (): Um, After the race started, so we can talk about that in a little bit, but I sort of, I did a little ride on Friday, felt good. The equipment felt dialed in retrospect. I sort of had tire size envy a little bit because it was weird because I normally ride like a 47 at home. And, um, we talked about this early on.
**** - (): You're a big fan of the IRC Boken and the biggest they come in is a 42. And I was like, well, I'm riding my titanium unicorn. I've got a front suspension fork. Like I don't need all that volume. And it, it seemed interesting to me to kind of go to something a little bit faster rolling potentially. But the big tire guy in me, when all the pros were talking about running 50 started to get a little bit jealous.
[00:21:55] - (): Justin Bowes: Right. Yeah, it's, it's, it's so personal. Like, um, yeah, I can give you my recommendations and, what I've seen work, for myself and other athletes and competitors and things like that, but it's, it's, yeah, it really comes down to your comfort level of, You know what you, what you, what you can ride and what feels good underneath you and, and things like that.
**** - (): And I, yeah, I'm, I'm all about my IRC tires, but at the same time, yeah, I couldn't help but be a little like,
[00:22:28] - (): Craig Dalton: Hmm,
[00:22:28] - (): Justin Bowes: 50 would be pretty nice, and I did
[00:22:30] - (): Craig Dalton: talk to the IRC guys and they said, Hey, the guys are from Japan are here. Yeah. And I'm making them listen to all these pros who are talking about fifties.
[00:22:39] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah.
[00:22:42] - (): Craig Dalton: So I feel like, like Thursday, Friday was all going swimmingly. And then through like being part of a larger group, my dinner on Friday night, we didn't end up sitting down to like maybe seven 30 or eight. Yeah, which is later than we had all intended by a few hours, right? I had been drinking a bunch of electrolyte stuff that I had picked up in the the expo area and For whatever reason and I don't really think I wasn't really in my head about the race because I was very kind of just at peace with Where I was at and what was going to unfold was going to unfold Friday night.
**** - (): I had a horrible night's sleep. I had a headache. I just kind of couldn't go down, which definitely rattled me, getting up at 4 30 AM to start eating on Saturday morning.
[00:23:30] - (): Justin Bowes: Right, right. Yeah. It's, it's tough. Um, yeah, it's, especially when you're with a group of people at a big race like that and, Emporia, I mean, they do an amazing job trying to absorb.
**** - (): Influx of what, uh, 12, 000 plus people with support staff and racers. And, but yeah, with dining options being as limited as they are, um, and then trying to, get a group to dinner or prepare dinner, whatever that case may be. Yeah. It's, it's, it's tough. And. I'm, I'm of the belief, I've always had this, in the school of thought of, it's not the night before, it's two nights before, um, as far as like your most important rest, um, and, recovery time and things like that, because even if, Craig, even if everything went perfect on Friday night, The enormity of what you're about to do on Saturday morning will keep you from having a restful night's sleep, it's just, yeah, maybe, maybe you fell asleep a little bit quicker, but, just knowing that, oh, my gosh, I got to get up at 430.
**** - (): I've got to have, double check this triple check that. I've got to start eating like immediately. I got to, make sure, everything's functioning. And so it's even with the best laid plans, it's always going to be, um, um, a rough night. So, but, again, objectively looking at it.
**** - (): And I think I shared with you on our call the other day was, if somebody just tossed this file in front of me. Um, and just said, Hey, tell me what you think, without any context or knowing who it was or anything like that. It's like, this guy had a great race and it was indicative of, um, again, I think just your confidence of, being prepared and knowing it is what it is at this point and yeah, you, strapped in and got to work.
**** - (): So.
[00:25:31] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, yeah, I think, I mean, I felt great about my equipment going in. I spent way more time thinking about hydration and nutrition than I ever had before, and I was, I was really jazzed with the way the First Endurance EPO Pro High Carb Drink worked for me. So to give some perspective, I used two 12 ounce bottles of the high carb drink, and then I had a use way backpack with water in it.
**** - (): And my plan was at every opportunity to refill those bottles. I would refill with the. The first endurance high carb mix that kind of annoyed maybe my, my compatriots a little bit. Cause I was like, Oh, I got to dump this powder in. And by the way, for any product designers out there, I need a product that will encapsulate a serving of first endurance.
**** - (): That's better than a plastic bag and faster to pour into
[00:26:24] - (): Justin Bowes: a bottle.
**** - (): So you felt like
**** - (): the,
**** - (): the first endurance high carb. That was. That was good for you.
[00:26:31] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah. So I was using that, uh, trying to goal was to drink a bottle an hour and do Right. A goo or something in addition to it. So Right. Aiming around, I think 85 to 90 carbs an hour. Mm-Hmm. . And I had, I had trained on that on every one of my long rides.
**** - (): Exactly.
[00:26:48] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. And some people will say, well that's on the low side now, but, um, and, and it. It is, but at the same time, if that's what you're training with and that's what your body's used to, and again, being able to get through all the training sessions the way you did, why, why change that, and, and try to like go all pro and be like, I'm getting 120, 130 grams, of carbs per hour.
**** - (): And then all of a sudden, you're two hours in and your body's like, I. Don't know what this means, and just let's just shut down on you. Um, you were, you were talking about, um, you touched on it really quick on, um, your bike and everything. Talk a little bit more about like the equipment that you did, end up using, for the race.
[00:27:33] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. So I was using, it's basically my standard setup at home with the exception of, I was running 700 by 42 tires as IRC Bokens. Uh, as we mentioned before, I did have the RockShox suspension fork on there as well as a dropper post. I considered taking the dropper post off, um, because I didn't think it was going to be warranted, but I'm glad I did not.
**** - (): I'm glad I left it on.
[00:27:58] - (): Justin Bowes: Interesting.
[00:27:58] - (): Craig Dalton: Okay. Part of that rationale was nothing new on game day philosophy. Um, but I, I can go on and on and on about dropper posts and in the context of unbound. It certainly enabled a heightened level of comfort during any of the technical sections. So little Egypt and right.
**** - (): Call reservation. And then oddly, like on the more, on the longer kind of just gentler downhills, it just allowed me to really get in sort of a chilled out yet arrow position.
[00:28:33] - (): Justin Bowes: Okay.
[00:28:34] - (): Craig Dalton: So it, it, it turned out really well. And. Obviously there's like a slight weight penalty, uh, with it, but it just provides me so much comfort when I go downhill and so much confidence that, I was like, I'm just going to leave it on.
**** - (): And I'm totally glad I did.
[00:28:51] - (): Justin Bowes: Nice. No, I, I don't think we talk much about droppers when it comes to, to unbound. I don't think that's like any, in any of the, like the hot topics it's, it's, it's all tires and and now that they've banned, arrow bars, from the pros and stuff. I mean, it's just like all the focuses, your, your number.
**** - (): Uh, holder now, so you can keep it flat and arrow and all of that. Um, and then your tires and, and wheel choice. Um, but yeah, dropper, like I think it makes a lot of sense, especially, just from a positioning standpoint. of just giving you your body a different position for that long of a period, because if you think about how being in a static cycling position for, 13, 14, 15 hours, being able to mix it up and know that you can, like you said, just have a little confidence boost and just like a different position for those descents.
**** - (): Taking some pressure off your lower back, off your hamstrings, the glutes, all of that. I mean, the little things like that really do add up, especially over that course of, that type of distance.
[00:30:01] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I do feel like at this moment I should, I should make one admission to my, my training progress.
**** - (): I will say like the one area, Justin, where I felt like I failed down and fell down when fortunately it didn't bite me in the ass is while I did do a ton of foam rolling, I wasn't as committed as I should have been to my foundation back exercises. Truth comes
[00:30:27] - (): Justin Bowes: out. Um, it's funny because I, like I doubled down on my foundation, uh, back exercises, the, the month leading into unbound, um, I've, I've always had a really strong back, um, partly from, swim background and everything.
**** - (): But, um, as we've gotten older, um, things are just a little bit, they make themselves a little bit more aware and a day like, unbound granted, I did the hundred, not the 200. Um, it's still, It adds up. And so I was just like, I'm doubling down on my, my foundation work. So instead of, a minimum of twice a week, I was doing it four plus times a week.
**** - (): And, um, I, I, I definitely felt a difference. Um, Just finishing and standing in the finish corral with everybody. And it was like, wow, I can actually like stand straight up, normally, normally you have that pre or post race kind of like slouch and slump and you're like, and have to like come back up to, um, vertical, uh, slowly.
**** - (): Um, but yeah, big time. So interesting that you mentioned that. Um,
[00:31:42] - (): Craig Dalton: So yeah, a hundred percent. It was not a recommendation to not do those things to anybody listening to what
[00:31:46] - (): Justin Bowes: Craig did on.
[00:31:47] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, exactly. So talking about race day, I mean, so, we got, it was surprised, like it was very hassle free to kind of get to the start line.
**** - (): Yeah. Probably got there maybe a few minutes later than probably could have gotten further up in the Peloton if you, if you will.
[00:32:03] - (): Justin Bowes: Okay.
[00:32:04] - (): Craig Dalton: If I got there a few minutes early, but we were there maybe 20 minutes early and we got right to the basically to the 14 hour flag, which is where we decided we were going to start.
**** - (): Cause it was important to me. I know from, from past experience, it's important for me to kind of get swept up and make miles when miles are easy. And so I was pretty adamant with the career that I was with that, like, for me, this was like an imperative. Like I, I definitely wanted to start there and ride in a big pack for a while.
[00:32:35] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. And, we, we, we did touch on this, um, a little bit that, while you, you definitely need to be with your people, and be with those people that are going to, you. get you through those first, couple hours. Um, but be cautious of not getting swept up in the moment, of, of what Unbound is.
**** - (): And for, for anybody who's never been to Emporia on race day, um, I mean, it's a, it's a big deal and you, it's very easy to get caught up, even the days leading into the race of, Oh, we can go do another shakeout, right. Or let's spend five hours at the expo on our feet, because we're having so much fun and we're talking with everybody and things like that with, without much thought of like, Oh, by the way, the biggest race of your life is, two days away and you need to like, Chill and relax, but, um, I, I totally agree.
**** - (): Like, you, when. You have to take advantage of those easy miles. Um, with, with, with the caveat that, Hey, I don't want to get swept up and do too much too soon. But I also want to, as you say, make, make hay while the sun is shining. Right. Um, and, and put it away. So when things start to turn south a little bit, no pun intended, um, it's.
**** - (): It's you're further up and you're further along and you're feeling better than, had you been too conservative and held back.
[00:34:07] - (): Craig Dalton: And maybe, I mean, maybe because we couldn't get farther up, it was actually kind of a, the pace felt very pedestrian. The first 28 miles to me, like, I never, I never had to really, put in any meaningful effort to cruise.
**** - (): And I, I was watching some videos this last weekend about it. And a guy who had done it in 12 hours. And I saw the difference of what the 12 hour pace looked like in the 14 hour. And I was like, maybe if I'm like totally nitpicking my day out there, maybe I should have been up a little bit further, but there's something to be said for like, I definitely had a chill first 28 miles.
**** - (): And then. We hit, we hit the first technical section and it was interesting. I was definitely conscious of my equipment because I had weirdly, like I'd seen flats like barely out of town.
[00:34:59] - (): Justin Bowes: I was like,
[00:35:00] - (): Craig Dalton: God, I don't, I don't want to have a flat, there, people are flatting all over the place.
**** - (): We would hit these, the, uh, the technical descents and you'd sort of, You have to ride in one of the dual tracks. We're kind of the safest way there. And there was a little rocky kind of drop offs. Nothing too technical if you had a clean look at it, but as you were riding in a group, sometimes you're inevitably forced into a line that you wouldn't have opted into.
**** - (): I think that's where you risk, flatting or crashing.
[00:35:28] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. And I think that's where most people get in to the big trouble is, they try to, they try to switch those lanes. When they really shouldn't. Um, and that's, a couple of things, a lot of those dual track MMRs, we'll have like a, a big grass section down the center of it.
**** - (): Yeah. And the grass looks inviting, but it hides a lot of stuff in there, whether it's, a rut or a. Bigger, nastier rock that's been kicked out of the track into, it's just laying there. And so that's where I think people really make the mistake of like, Oh, this line's going faster on the left.
**** - (): So I'm going to hop from the right side to the left side or vice versa. And that's where the cuts happen. And the, even crashes just because they hit something that they weren't expecting and things like that.
[00:36:18] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, that 100 percent started to be a necessity to do those cross lane jumps for me.
**** - (): Like, as we came out of the other side of the, the first technical section, like, you would just see one group moving up and another. Kind of fading back on a climb. And I was definitely conscious of that middle section. Like this is when it could go all wrong, you feel the need to kind of keep joining groups with forward momentum.
**** - (): And yes, I was very pleased that, um, my, my buddy Doug, Was right there with me. I had kind of no sense because I was just sort of focused on saying, with that group in the first 28 miles. And when we came through the technical section, it was great to see his enthusiastic face pull through. And I was like, this is awesome.
**** - (): Like, cause I, we hadn't written together, but once or twice. So it was great to see that. We could potentially spend a bunch of time together. So from mile 30 to mile a hundred, we were riding together and riding with groups. Um, it's interesting and unbound cause the amateurs can use arrow bars.
**** - (): So you would see these guys and girls who would kind of maybe go slower on the hills, but once you got on the downhill or a flat, they were happy to have a train of people behind them. And I was, I'm not ashamed to say I was taking advantage of that as much as possible.
[00:37:35] - (): Justin Bowes: Heck yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No. Real quick, before I forget, um, I think on the first pod that we did, um, you were asking me about the climbs.
**** - (): Um, and, cause I had given you some description of like, punchy, um, death by a thousand cut because of just the, how many there were, succession and things like that now that you've done it, like what, what was your overall, um, Observation as far as like the climbing was concerned.
[00:38:07] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. I mean, everything's so short relative to what I'm used to. And I knew that was going to be the case going in, but on the plus side, you can always, you can generally always see the top of them. So you kind of knew, and you could measure your, you could gauge your efforts. When I, I think about sort of towards mile a hundred, it started, we started to get to some that required a little bit more effort.
**** - (): And actually this was, One of the, probably the darkest mental moment I had was I kind of, I lost Doug's wheel. He caught some good wheels. I was behind someone, uh, who was not moving as efficiently and we kind of separated. And I, I thought to myself, I don't feel like I want to make this effort over the top of the hill to bridge this gap.
**** - (): But I was also staring down the barrel of like the one guy I know in this race is now riding away from me. Right. Um, there's a little bit of a dark moment there, but to your question about the hills, like, I was comforted that I could always see the top. I knew they were quite short relative to what I'm used to riding, and it was really a matter of, for me, there was maybe, I think, three times.
**** - (): I ended up getting off on the last 25 percent of a climb or last 15%. Okay. Because I gauged that I could do it, but I felt like I was going to go into the red too much. And it felt prudent to just hop off real quick and walk.
[00:39:32] - (): Justin Bowes: And that was, that was pretty late on though, right?
[00:39:35] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:39:36] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. It wasn't like mile 30 and you're like, okay, I'm going to start saving.
**** - (): Yeah.
[00:39:41] - (): Craig Dalton: Not at
[00:39:41] - (): Justin Bowes: all. Not
[00:39:42] - (): Craig Dalton: at
[00:39:42] - (): Justin Bowes: all. Yeah.
[00:39:43] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. So it was interesting. I was, I, there was a lot of mental gymnastics between mile 100 and one 48, which was the, the second checkpoint for us. Cause I had lost Doug. Um, it was starting to get hot. It was just. I talked to a few people and you probably mentioned the same thing to me.
**** - (): Like you can't think of the totality of the 200 miles you have to do. You really just need to break it down into chunks. Yep. Right. So I started really thinking about, um, our crew chief, Phil, who was a godsend out there. He had such great. Support for us at the aid station. We had an easy up. He had everything imaginable.
**** - (): I knew he had bottles on ice for me. So I jokingly referred to miles 100 to 1 48 as project Phil.
[00:40:30] - (): Justin Bowes: Okay.
[00:40:31] - (): Craig Dalton: And. Everything I did either was a positive effect towards Project Phil or a negative effect. So if I was, if I found a good wheel or I was riding well, I was like, okay, we're making progress, we're going to get to Phil.
**** - (): And if I, fell off the pace or something, I was like, this is a serious blow to Project Phil. And I, it's funny. I started sort of naming a few of the characters that I would ride behind and, There is a guy, a guy I was calling the orange crush because he had an orange jersey.
[00:40:59] - (): Justin Bowes: Okay.
[00:41:00] - (): Craig Dalton: And every, he was like one of those arrow bar guys.
**** - (): Right, right. Which was quite helpful. And then, at one point, um, at one point I got a really nice, um, Uh, I've started following a guy with a, with a beat the sun patch on his hip pack.
[00:41:16] - (): Justin Bowes: Okay.
[00:41:17] - (): Craig Dalton: And I was like, that's a good sign, actually. Like if this guy is, has clearly beat the sun in the past, this is probably a good sign.
**** - (): So, got into a rhythm that mile 110. Or 112 water stop I'd forgotten about. And that was absolutely a godsend because, um, I need it. I just needed some relief and the volunteers there and everywhere were just phenomenal. So they poured a bunch of water over my head and just kind of cooled me down and filled me up and set me on my way.
**** - (): And so I got to mile one 48 and my buddy Doug was sitting in the chair. With Phil and I was like, this is great. Like, I wasn't expecting to catch Doug again. Right. So it was, that was a nice sort of mental jump. And, he, he had run outta water, so he wasn't feeling that great, but he's like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna head, he'd been there a little bit, I don't know how long, but Phil had taken care of him, got his bike all tuned up, and um, he's like, I'm gonna head out, but I suspect you'll catch me.
**** - (): And in my head, I didn't know whether that would be the case, but yeah, I ended up heading out of town and catching up with Doug, um, which was great to just know that I had someone to ride with. And he rebounded quite well for that last, um, the last 50 miles of the race. So we were very simpatico.
[00:42:37] - (): Justin Bowes: Nice. Did, um, I didn't, I didn't ask you this, but, um, just talking about the aid stations. Did you have, did you give yourself like any treats, like something to look forward to in the aid stations or did you just keep it strictly business? I had a vision
[00:42:51] - (): Craig Dalton: of a lot of treats. I asked, I asked, uh, Phil to get me some gummy bears.
**** - (): Okay. Unfortunately, all the gummy bears melted in the sun and he, he did have everything. Like we had like sandwiches, he got a pizza from Casey's and I, I just, I felt like my nutrition was working. And so I was kind of like, besides some, um, Lay's potato chips, it's like, I'm just going to stick with the program.
**** - (): I never rolled in feeling like super hungry or anything. So I was like, I'm doing something right. So why don't I just keep doing it?
[00:43:28] - (): Justin Bowes: No, that's great. Yeah. I know, from other athletes that I've coached for the 200, they always, we'll have. I mean, yeah, the Casey's pizza is clutch. Like I think everybody knows, like if you're coming to the Midwest, um, you got to get a Casey's pizza in your aid station, um, or, a cheeseburger or, potato chips seem to be like, high on the list as well.
**** - (): Yeah. That's, that tends to, uh, be a really fit, good favorite, just because, I mean, it's like the salt you want, the starch and the carbs and all of that goes down really easy. And then usually like a Mexican Coke to, to, to wash it down with. So how were your, um, timing wise, how long did you stop?
[00:44:12] - (): Craig Dalton: Very little amount of time. I think my, my ride time was just under 13 hours, 30 and my total elapsed time was 14.
[00:44:22] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. So two, two dedicated aid stations and two water. Yeah. And I stopped
[00:44:28] - (): Craig Dalton: at both, I stopped at both aid stations. I honestly think at mile one 12 at that neutral aid station, when they were pouring water on me, that might've been longer than my checkpoint to stop
[00:44:40] - (): Justin Bowes: looking at your file.
**** - (): I think you're right. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:44:44] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. So, yeah, it was a bit crazy. Like, I just didn't, I, like, I know myself, like I know I just need to keep going. So I didn't, I sat down for a minute and, Phil was great. He was like there with lots of stuff, but I was like, let's just swap the bottles out. He put some ice down my back, he put my pack in the cooler, like, to get ice water on it.
**** - (): And, uh, after a few things, lubing up the chain, et cetera, making sure the bike was all right. Yeah. It just felt like it's time to go.
[00:45:12] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah, no, that's good. I, that's, definitely, um, a word of caution to, athletes, especially new to the 200 of like, unless you're in a bad state, in a bad way, uh, you want to minimize the amount of time you hang around in the aid station, just because your legs start to.
**** - (): revolt a little bit and they don't want to cooperate, and so the, the shorter time you can, uh, the quicker you can get in and get out, um, with giving yourself enough time to resupply and not forget anything is always going to be better than just, standing around for, 10 plus minutes, John, John with everybody and things like that.
**** - (): Cause if you don't need to, man, Yeah. A hundred percent. Get back after it. So.
[00:46:01] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah. And I think, at that second aid station mile one 48, I think Doug was a lot more conscious of the idea that we could beat the sun than I was. I think the last, the last 50 miles had been a little bit mentally hard on me.
**** - (): I was not in a dark place by any means, but I'd kind of was like, this is what it is. Like I gotta, I'll pedal as far as I can pedal and as fast as I can pedal and it is what it is. But. He, he had never beat the sun before. And I think he saw it as a really great opportunity. And as we had talked about as my kind of, my number one goal was to finish.
**** - (): Second goal was to finish healthy. And third goal was to beat the sun. Right. It was great to know it was out there. And the funny thing was my, my Wahoo was, it had 54 climbs as the listed number of climbs. And I believe by aid station two, by checkpoint two, we've done 52 of 54 climbs.
[00:47:00] - (): Justin Bowes: Right, right. Yeah.
[00:47:02] - (): Craig Dalton: Which is pretty, it's pretty crazy. So we've done like, close to 10, 000 feet of climbing already. And I think they maybe have listed it as 11. Anyway, negligible amount of climbing over the next 50 miles. So I was like, well, that's, that, that feels good to know that most of it's behind me. And, and, and everybody had said this, like getting to checkpoint two Was really the hardest part, right?
**** - (): And you just need to ride back to Emporia.
[00:47:25] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah, exactly. I mean, there's always there's always going to be, a Joker station or, segment. Um, generally, it's like the Kohola, uh, Lake climb. Yeah. Um, and, For those who don't know, um, or didn't follow the weather or anything like that, we had pretty optimal conditions all day.
**** - (): I mean, we started, um, cloud cover, cool, nice, favorable breeze, um, all of that. And, for us in the 100, it wasn't until we really got closer to Kohola Lake, I mean, it was like. After the aid station, which, we shared, um, there in council groves, um, the, the clouds were starting to thin out and you could, you see a little bit more of a shadow underneath you and everything like that.
**** - (): Um, but it, you guys were in it a little longer, the heat, the sun and everything like that, but it still wasn't like in 2021 where it was just essentially a hairdryer. on your face, the entire day. Um, and so with the Kohola climb, that can always be a spoiler. Um, and I think I mentioned this to you on our call the other day.
**** - (): It was like a lot of people, as soon as they get over that climb, you're roughly, inside the last 25 miles basically to, to the finish and. Yeah, your climbing's essentially done too and people like, oh, this is great and just like get on the gas and in a 10 mile span They're completely shattered and on the side of the road because they just completely underestimated You know, whether it be the previous 70 miles or the previous, 180 that you just did are in your legs and Any extra efforts can really put a Put you in the box really quickly.
**** - (): And a lot of people's wheels fall off after that Cahola climb. Um, because they're like, Oh, we're done. Yeah. Yeah. But you're not done. You still got some mileage ahead of you. Yeah,
[00:49:27] - (): Craig Dalton: exactly. I think we were, we were looking over our right shoulders at the sun and looking at it kind of starting to go down and we're like, we do need to keep going pretty efficiently
[00:49:41] - (): Justin Bowes: to
[00:49:41] - (): Craig Dalton: make it.
**** - (): And, you go, you continue riding the dirt roads and then you go under the highway. And then you're at the university and you've got that final paved climb before the finish line. Yep. Um, and we're like, we've, we're like, we're going to do this. We're going to do this.
[00:49:57] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah.
[00:49:58] - (): Craig Dalton: And I think we ended up finishing like 15 minutes to spare before the sunset.
[00:50:03] - (): Justin Bowes: No, it's, it's, it's awesome. And I think, uh, to, to put it in context, um, this is the first year. That a lot of people were nervous about it because The start time had been pushed back, uh, to accommodate the new, uh, starting protocol with the, the pro men. Then 15 minutes later, the pro women, and then essentially a half an hour behind them, you all started.
**** - (): So I mean, taking away 30 minutes doesn't sound like a lot, but when you're up against the sun actually setting on you, it, it, it comes quickly. Like you said, I mean, you had 15 ish minutes to, in your pocket, um, that could have easily gone one way or the other, um, quickly. So, yeah,
[00:50:53] - (): Craig Dalton: yeah, you, you could, you could see to your point earlier about the aid stations, like you could have very easily burned 15 minutes sitting around on your ass, having a pizza,
[00:51:03] - (): Justin Bowes: totally.
**** - (): And I mean, and not 15 minutes at one, you could do, Seven here, eight there. And in, in the grand scheme of things in a 14 hour raise, what's seven minutes. Right. Well, add that up and all of a sudden you're, you're finishing in the dark.
[00:51:21] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah. So a hundred percent. So, yeah, I mean, I haven't finished.
**** - (): Crossing the finish line was, was great. I mean, riding down commercial street with, um, with Doug was just fantastic. That's so cool. Have us, yeah, have us both meet our goals and the crowd were great. And we've got our names announced and, uh, Yeah. It just like, it wasn't lost on me the entirety of the experience.
**** - (): The town was wonderful. It's it's, it's obviously a grand spectacle of the gravel cycling community. Right. So I think coming down that I was, I was generally genuinely emotional, just felt very fulfilled with my day and effort to have it conclude before sunset and, come down that finishing line shoot.
**** - (): It just. It felt great.
[00:52:10] - (): Justin Bowes: Oh, I bet. I mean, I, I did share this with you, uh, the other day. Um, not only did I have you, have you, uh, competing, but I had, uh, one other in the 200 and another one in the a hundred and as a coach, even though I was racing, I still have like, you know, The best I could compare it to is, being a father of three, it's just like, it's like you're looking after your kids, right?
**** - (): You're nervous for them. Yeah. And, um, and so after I got done and cleaned up and went about the rest of my day on, on, on Saturday and everything like that, now I turn my I turned my browser to the race results to see, how everybody's faring out there and projected times and, and things like that.
**** - (): And when I, when I popped open my laptop and, and pulled up the results and you were still on a course, obviously, but, uh, just seeing your splits come in and everything, I was just like. Damn right, like, look at this guy go, like, he's, he's actually doing this and, um, we can talk about it all the time, as coaches of like, I know that I was giving you the proper training, and you were executing the training and things like that.
**** - (): But you never, I mean, there's so many variables that can show up on race day and, Mechanically, uh, correct me if I'm wrong, you had a clean race mechanically, right? Yeah,
[00:53:30] - (): Craig Dalton: totally clean. Yeah.
[00:53:31] - (): Justin Bowes: And for that to happen just by itself is amazing. And then on top of that, you hit your nutrition and hydration and everything just, it worked, and so, um, with, with a race like unbound, You know that something's going to go wrong, somewhere, some way, something's going to happen. And it's, it's, it's such a rarity to have a clean run, especially on your first time, not knowing what to expect and, and all of that. Um, but for you to be so successful with that, um, And it was just, yeah, as your coach and now as your friend, um, I'm just super excited for you.
**** - (): I was just, I was over the moon, um, excited to see your finishing time and, and, uh, to, to just hear, hear it in your voice and, and at first it was, it was just in text messages back and forth, but just, getting the tone of like, Your satisfaction with everything was just, it's, it's huge. And yeah, it was awesome to, to be a small part of that.
[00:54:37] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, no, it means a lot. It's been, it's been a great journey working together. It's been very fun. I, I haven't had proper coaching in ages. Um, and I recommend it. I recommend you, I recommend fast cat. It was just, it was enjoyable to just Go through a process, see improvement, uh, along the way, build confidence to do something that I'd never done before.
**** - (): And frankly, that I was, a bit scared of this whole journey started because I wanted to do something that scared me. Um, and, and to come out the other side of it, just, I'm very grateful for the entire experience, the last six months
[00:55:18] - (): Justin Bowes: Oh man, Craig, it's, it, again, it's been a privilege and Just exciting to, to, to see how you developed and just your professionalism with, with regards to your training and, accepting some new guy that you've never met before, be like in charge of this craziness.
**** - (): Um, and, um, yeah, it just, you, you didn't flinch. Um, I, I appreciate you being cautiously. Questioning about hate, why are we doing it this way? Why, where are we going? Um, why would you have me do this instead of that? Um, I mean that, it wasn't like I ever thought, Oh, he's questioning my ability or anything like that.
**** - (): He just generally wants to know why we're doing the training that we're doing. And, um, and I appreciate that. Like I love, when, when, when my athletes are like engaged. To the point that they want to know, I mean, it's, it's nice to when you just blindly follow the plan, but, when, when you're so engaged and you're so invested in the outcome of this goal that you've set for yourself and you're like, Hey, I just want to know what's going on and.
**** - (): It, it just, it tells me again, it's just another little, box to check, with, with my coaching hat on of like this, this athlete is he, he's invested, like he cares and he wants to do what needs to be done to, to, to succeed at this goal. And that makes a big difference on my end, um, because then I know, yeah, these are going to be hard workouts and they're going to put them in the box a couple times.
**** - (): But because he wants it and he's, he's, he's wanting to follow the plan, um, and be consistent with it, he's going to do really well. And, um, yeah, it showed. So, um, one, one final question. If I can, um, and I, I touched on it on our call the other day is like on a scale one to 10, how would you rate this overall experience from training to the event to your, your overall experience with, with Unbound here?
[00:57:34] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, I said it last week and I think I'll stick to it. It's a 10 out of 10 for me. Okay. And. Yeah, the only, I hesitated a second there, Justin, because I might've knocked it down to a 9. 5 because I, again, like I watched someone else's video and I was like, Maybe I could have pushed a little harder early on, but it's in the grand scheme of things, neither here nor there.
**** - (): Like, I think again, like the, I learned a lot along the way. It was fascinating, working with a power meter, thanks to SRM, uh, using their power meter pedals. It was interesting to me going carb journey and trying to figure out, would that work for me? Along the way, everything was, great on the training.
**** - (): Like we had to cram a little bit, but that was all good. The family was super supportive of it. And then, getting to Emporia and having that bluebird of a day, um, was something, that it couldn't have counted on at all in terms of the weather. The, the mileage came easy and fast. The technical elements of it were no issue for me whatsoever.
**** - (): And I felt like I had the right bike to take a few hits harder than I might have wanted to, to keep the pace going, but never had any issues there. And then to, to ride with my buddy Doug and have the experience with the, the whole crew. We had a number of guys doing the hundred and one guy doing the three 50.
**** - (): Great to make some new friends out there within the houses we were staying at. And the overall experience, yeah. 10 out of 10.
[00:59:06] - (): Justin Bowes: Nice. Okay, good. Yeah, it's, it's, it's, yeah. When, when you shared that with me the other day, um, yeah, I got off our call and I was just like, Um, I was just like, all right, I, I, it just, it's, it's, it's so rewarding, um, to see an athlete just like check all those boxes and, feel good about, what they accomplished.
**** - (): Um, because yeah, I can put together the plan for you. Um, but it's ultimately all on your shoulders to execute. Yeah. Take care of all this, the variables outside of the training plan that is, you know, recovering responsibly, being, diligent to, the consistency of, following the plan and all those little things that I can't, I can't even like begin to.
**** - (): Yeah. Help you with, that's just your wife, and so, um, again, Greg. Congratulations. It's, it's so cool to, to see and, and have a time like that. Um, I'll, I'll give the listeners, a little, uh, number crunch here real quick. You're right. I mean, you were just in under, um, 1330 at 1327 for 203 miles.
**** - (): Um, TSS, obviously off the charts with 645, um, that's, to be expected for sure. Um, average speed, I mean, just over 15 miles an hour for the 200 miles over that type of terrain is fantastic. Um, your normalized power, um, was so good. Um, Yeah, it was just the only thing that we didn't capture was heart rate.
**** - (): Um,
[01:00:48] - (): Craig Dalton: yeah, I failed to talk about that. I was so mad for so long that my strap wasn't working.
[01:00:54] - (): Justin Bowes: It's the worst when it's on and there's just nothing you can do about it. I kept
[01:00:59] - (): Craig Dalton: thinking like by the first aid station, I would take everything off and recover it, which I did. And then it still didn't work. Yeah.
**** - (): And like halfway through. The next segment, I just like ripped it off my body and shoved it in my pocket.
[01:01:12] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. I mean, just, I mean, that's, that's one like little nitpick on my end and sense of like, it would just been really interesting to see, um, the correlation between your power and the heart rate and where, I mean, it ultimately, it was always going to drop off and start to decouple, but you know where that was for you.
**** - (): Um, because then, for me, I can go back to the training and say, okay, yeah, this is, this is white. We went as far as we did and, and all of that. So, oh yeah, yeah. I mean, so there's, there was one less than ideal thing, pop up out of here and it was stupid heart rate monitor. So.
[01:01:51] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah.
**** - (): In the grand scheme of things.
[01:01:53] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah.
[01:01:54] - (): Craig Dalton: Justin, thanks so much for coming back on board and helping me recount this, uh, this event or this experience that's going to be in my memory for a long time.
[01:02:02] - (): Justin Bowes: With that, is there an Unbound in your future again or too soon?
[01:02:07] - (): Craig Dalton: It's a little too soon. And I think I mentioned to you that last week, it's hard to imagine having a better day out there.
**** - (): Then, then I had all things considered and with so many great events out there that I would love to do in time away from the family. I don't, I don't know if unbound would be it again.
[01:02:26] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah, no, that's fair. That's fair.
[01:02:27] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah,
[01:02:28] - (): Justin Bowes: no, I mean, it's hard to go out. And, as, as good as you did. And like you said, I mean, uh, another experience would it, taint this one, and in the sense of like, next year is like, flats on flats on flats or, body shuts down or, whatever the case may be, or the worst weather ever.
**** - (): I mean, so yeah, go, go out on top.
[01:02:50] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah. I'm going out on top, I think on the 200. For me, it's either like. Go shorter and actually like, see what it's like to race an event. Cause I don't, the 200 miler, like it's hard to consider it a race for me. It was really about managing my way across the finish line as efficiently as possible.
**** - (): Or going the other way, which has always attracted me, which is like the bike packing. route and, trying some of the real long distance stuff longer than 200 miles. Sure.
[01:03:18] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. The, the 350, the XL crew, that is, that's next level, man. Yeah. I, I, I always, I always like tease myself, like, that would be so cool just like to push your limits.
**** - (): Um, And, and, and see what that's like, um, for that distance and everything. But then reality kind of sets in on me and like, you, you're not going to do that. So I'll stick with my hundred. I love my hundred distance.
[01:03:44] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah. I feel like there is like an overnight riding experience that I need to have as that next unchecked box. I've sure I've done like the team racing 24 hours, but I've never done. Sort of a self supported overnight.
[01:03:59] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. Yeah.
[01:03:59] - (): Craig Dalton: Straight through. So I am, I am curious about that. Why don't we leave it at that?
**** - (): That'll be a mystery. And if, if, and when I decide to do something crazy like that, we'll chat more about it.
[01:04:09] - (): Justin Bowes: Heck yeah. Love that.
[01:04:12] - (): Craig Dalton: Good to talk to you, Justin.
[01:04:13] - (): Justin Bowes: Craig, it was great seeing you and congrats again, man. It's awesome.
[01:04:17] - (): Craig Dalton: Thank you.
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This week we welcome Tomas Castrillon, the founder of Arriba Travel, to talk about the joys of gravel cycling in Colombia. We discuss the allure of traveling by bike, the unique cultural experiences that can be found off the beaten path, and the incredible diversity of Colombia's landscapes. Tomas shares his personal journey into the world of cycling and how it led him to create a bicycle travel company. He also provides insights into the specific route of Arriba Travel's Bogota to Medellin gravel trip, highlighting the challenging climbs, beautiful scenery, and rural communities that participants will encounter along the way.
Arriba Gravel Colombia Website
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About the Guest(s):Tomas Castrillon is the founder of Arriba Travel, a bicycle travel company based in Colombia. With a passion for cycling and a desire to share the beauty of his country with others, Tomas started Arriba Travel in 2011. He has been organizing and leading road bike tours in Colombia for over a decade, and more recently, he has expanded into gravel bike tours. Tomas is dedicated to providing a premium experience for his clients, combining challenging rides with comfortable accommodations and delicious cuisine. He believes that cycling is a way to explore and connect with the diverse landscapes and communities of Colombia.
Key Takeaways:Gravel cycling in Colombia offers a unique opportunity to explore the country's diverse landscapes and connect with local communities.
Colombia has a strong cycling culture, with cyclists of all skill levels and backgrounds enjoying the sport.
Arriba Travel's Bogota to Medellin gravel trip is a challenging and beautiful adventure, featuring steep climbs, stunning views, and comfortable accommodations.
The trip takes riders through rural communities where they can experience the agricultural traditions and warm hospitality of the Colombian people.
Safety is a top priority for Arriba Travel, and the support team ensures that all participants have a positive and enjoyable experience.
Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos:
[00:00:00] - (): Craig Dalton: Tomas, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me, Craig. How are you? I'm doing great. And, um, yeah, good evening to you. I'm super excited to have this conversation. We've been chatting a few minutes offline and I was just sharing, and the listener knows this well, I love gravel travel. I just love the idea of a exploration in foreign lands by bike.
**** - (): And in particular, the. Kind of versatility, a drop bar gravel bike gives you in your exploration. Of course,
[00:00:32] - (): Tomas Castrillon: it's great. What, what is it that attracts you about traveling with your bicycle? I mean, you're, you're, you mentioned it a little bit, but what's like, let's put it this way. What has been like the greatest adventure that you have been, uh, that you have had while, uh, traveling with a gravel bicycle so far?
**** - (): I think it's just,
[00:00:51] - (): Craig Dalton: you know, it's the idea that culture can unfold slowly. So as a tourist, you might go to a city and you might read a tourist map and go do this, that, and the other things, but there's so many things in between that a bike enables you to see along the way. And obviously as, as gravel cyclists, we're looking to get out into the wilderness and out into destinations unknown.
**** - (): And surely if the route is well designed. , you're, you're going well off the beaten path. Correct. So you're, you're interacting with a part of the culture that may not see so many foreign travelers. Mm-Hmm. . So you're gonna get a really authentic experience versus sort of a whitewash tourist experience you might get in a major city.
[00:01:34] - (): Tomas Castrillon: Correct? Correct. And, and what has been like the place that you said like, oh, I want to come back to this place? Or is there a place that you said like, oh, I would love to, uh, go and see that place on my, on my gravel bicycle.
[00:01:45] - (): Craig Dalton: Well, I'm going to give you two answers. One self serving in this conversation is Columbia, which is where I'm talking to you.
**** - (): And we'll get to that and why I have that in my head. Second is, is Girona. I went to Girona last year in Spain, and I think, just think there's miles and miles of gravel to explore there. And Girona itself is a great, City hub for these kinds of adventures. So as someone who, you know, I enjoy being in European cities, so you can have enough of that in the evenings, but still go spend your entire day riding your, riding your head off into the Spanish countryside.
[00:02:24] - (): Tomas Castrillon: Of course. Of course. Of course. Yes. Yes. I, I think that, uh, like coming a little bit back to me, I, I fell in love with cycling like from a very early age. Uh, maybe you're aware of these, like you were telling me, they told me before we started this conversation that your father used to be a racer, but there was this wave of Colombian cyclists back in the eighties and they were like, I was, uh, uh, I'm 42.
**** - (): Now I was five when these guys were storming the, the, they were doing so well in the, in the pro tour. And for me it was like, Oh my God, I really want to do that. I really want to ride my bicycle. My family on my father's side lives in Medellin, on my mother's side lives in Manizales, so they are far apart in terms of particularly time, because moving around these mountains can take a lot of time.
**** - (): And so for me it was like, My mind was absolutely captured by, my imagination was captured by like these mountains and how they were ever since it was like for me, a constant sense of exploration that bicycles bring brings into my life. It's still going on. As I told you, it was like from the, from a very early age that I caught the bug for cycling.
**** - (): So, yeah.
[00:03:41] - (): Craig Dalton: At this point in 2024, that sort of history of Colombian cycling is certainly in the pro tour as well known. There've been some grand champions and some phenomenal riders from Colombia. Is there a part of Colombia for those of us whose geography might be struggling to understand the country?
**** - (): Talk a little bit about the country and maybe are there hubs of cycling in Colombia that, that, that generally speaking we're graduating these phenomenal cyclists?
[00:04:08] - (): Tomas Castrillon: Well, yes, like just to give you a broad idea, like, eh, Columbia or better the Andes, the Andes mountains, once they arrive into Columbia, they split into three branches.
**** - (): The East branch, that is the one that in Bogota is located. The central branch. And as I got, I mean, as a reference point, Medellin might be the best, uh, reference point for that one. And then there is the West branch of the country. You have like pockets of, uh, cycling development all across the country.
**** - (): Okay. So there is people from Bogota that are super strong people. People from Boyacá, so to give the audience a little bit of an idea, Nairo Quintana, these guys are all from Boyacá, well, Nairo Quintana particularly from Boyacá. And then you have people from the other branches of the Cordillera, so you have people like from Medellín, like Reygo.
**** - (): So, but in general, like cycling is so, so, so big in Columbia that you get cycling from all across the country. So even places that are relatively flat, and we do have a lot of flats in Columbia, particularly closer to a north side of the, of the country, close to cities like Cartagena. So it's more like Caribbean on all these kind of atmosphere.
**** - (): There are cyclists over there as well. So actually cycling in Columbia, it's so big that it's really. Actually, hard to grasp. I'm, I'm local. I ride my bicycle almost every day. I'm still, I'm surprised sometimes by the sheer number of cyclists that you can see on the road. It's might be, uh, in the, in the team we have like this joke that there are so many.
**** - (): Uh, uh, I forget the one in English, so many hobos cycling their, their bicycle or across Columbia because you see somebody riding their bicycle full kit on in the middle of nowhere at a time that you were supposed to be doing some work and you will find always somebody riding their bicycle. And that's even more so on places like, I'm coming back to your question, like big cities, Bogota, Medellin, Manizales, coffee hub region.
**** - (): All of those places have a really, really strong cycling culture regardless. So I think that, uh, when it, when you think of a country that has like these super strong background in cycling, I would say that Columbia, uh, it's, it's like in my experience, I'm having trouble a little bit in Europe, in other places of the world.
**** - (): I would say like Columbia is still like, it's the best place for riding a bicycle, and it's amazing the number of people and people that get. Like how, not only the cyclist person, but actually the whole society. So one thing that we have in our tours and I mean, still surprising is how encouraging and how, uh, how our relations, our relationships with cycling or between cyclists and drivers is so positive.
**** - (): Compared to other places in the world, because we, I mean, I'm not saying that it's 100 percent perfect, but the number of cases of road rage that we face, it's very limited compared to, I mean, the number of cases that you would see are very limited compared to the number of cyclists that you will see on the streets, right?
**** - (): So, so that's, that's one very, very important thing about Colombia as a whole.
[00:07:19] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, that's really great to hear. Going back to you personally, you know, you mentioned sort of becoming aware of these great Colombian cycling stars and wanting to do it yourself. Yeah. As a child, what was your pathway into the sport?
**** - (): Were there clubs and different local organizations that helped foster your interest? Or was it a, was it a a solo endeavor that you pursued.
[00:07:41] - (): Tomas Castrillon: I think that for all cyclists in Colombia, it has, it's changing a little bit, but for many of us, particularly for my generation, it was basically a solo path. I would say, uh, I joke around this one as well, is that, uh, cycling used to be a nerd sport and I love it when he was, I was very nerdy at school.
**** - (): And I, and I, and I really love that about cycling. And I mean, I, and I loved like the people that are my friends from bicycles. All of them are freaks. So, so the point of that one is that, uh, uh, there was really not an established path. I did race a little bit, but it was basically on my own without a coach, without anything.
**** - (): It was. And it was never really an established pursuit, like what I was really, really attracted to about the, the bicycle was basically the state of mind that it created for me, like the, uh, searching for that, that experience that is completely ungraspable, but, but you really know that that is there. Like the beauty of the terrain, the beauty of the physical effort, the conquering the mountain, stuff that we all cyclists can relate to.
**** - (): It was never really a comp, there was really not a competitive edge on my behalf about cycling. It was more like a, uh, sort of a meditation kind of activity and, and a personal search for a way to, to, to exert myself, to really get tired and like, Like put my demons to rest sort of speaking.
[00:09:13] - (): Craig Dalton: Got it. And how did you arrive at the idea to create a bicycle travel company?
**** - (): Areva travel?
[00:09:20] - (): Tomas Castrillon: And well, we, it was basically a little bit by chance, like those are like the random paths that life takes you on. And it was, there was definitely a side of me that always wanted to be related to bicycles. I, I never really wanted to be a part of a. Like the corporate world per se, I really wanted to instead be part of something that I would find beautiful in, in the broad sense of the word.
**** - (): Uh, so for me that was cycling. So like 14, 15 years ago, uh, I was helping some friends develop an international, like the first proper international race here in Columbia. And that led into some more connections with, uh, the tourism side of, uh, of, of that kind of events, and that created some opportunities.
**** - (): So, I mean, it's completely, like, I would say that, like, all those steps are, uh, Sort of random, but there were like, it was, uh, at the same time, there were also the work that I put into like making those random events come into like the fruition of like, what is now Arriba travel. So, so basically that's where we are now.
**** - (): And, and you know, in a way that's, that's still the philosophy that I still bring into a company that it's like a place for, uh, for people to to foster the sense of exploration that we all have in within. So, uh, gravel, as you said, that has just enhanced that part of, of my personal desire to take my, uh, that desire for a new adventure a little bit further.
**** - (): Right. So, uh, so that's, that's how I come in. That's how I came into it sort of tourism side of, of it, but really in the end, it's basically Thinking about like, okay, what are the places that I want to go for myself? And if I would take a friend of mine, would I take them that way? Or is that the most beautiful road that I can make it is basically that the question that I'm answering all the time when I'm, when I'm thinking about a trip.
[00:11:32] - (): Craig Dalton: I love it. What year did the travel business start for you?
[00:11:36] - (): Tomas Castrillon: It started a, as a travel business, we did our first, a big road bike tour in 2011. So to give the audience a little bit of perspective, we were like basically the first. Company that, uh, did something as big as this one. It was a two week trip from Bogotá to Cartagena.
**** - (): So by the Pacific, by the Pacific, by the Caribbean coast. And it was two weeks long. And, uh, that was with, uh, a, we, we, with a UK based agency that we work and we are still working with them. So, uh, so, so yeah, so that, that's how it started. It started basically as many of us in the industry, like something on the side.
**** - (): Yeah. And all of a sudden it started to it started to grow and to becoming what is it now.
[00:12:29] - (): Craig Dalton: Amazing, a two week long trip, that's quite a quite an adventure.
[00:12:33] - (): Tomas Castrillon: Yes, it is. Yes, I mean I see it still is, it still is. Like, one of the things that I was telling you about Colombia is that, I mean, people don't really understand, and it's very, very hard for people to understand how big really Colombia is.
**** - (): So Colombia, when you put it together, or when you compare it, is the size of Portugal, Spain, France, Belgium, and Netherlands all together. So when you, so when you put all of that together, you realize that you really can have a 1000 kilometer touring on the spot. It's basically, it's basically that big that, that Columbia can get.
[00:13:10] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Three big mountain ranges. Exactly. To choose from as well. You've got some tough days in there, I imagine. Yes, exactly. Exactly.
[00:13:17] - (): Tomas Castrillon: I mean, and yes, tough, beautiful, everything all at once. It's incredible.
[00:13:22] - (): Craig Dalton: You mentioned. That first tour, those first tours were on the road. When did you start thinking about getting off road with clients?
[00:13:30] - (): Tomas Castrillon: Well, my, my background as a cyclist is more on the, on the, on the mountain bike scene. So as I was telling you, I was, I was very interested as a kid in, in, in, in the sense of adventure. So come the nineties and the first mountain bikes start to show up in here in Columbia. And on these family trips, I would see, I don't know, a path road that would go into the mountains.
**** - (): And I was always curious. Okay, where does that path leads to? So for me, mountain biking was always, uh, this first love that I had for cycling, like And, uh, yes, like, like the first thing that that, uh, that really caught my attention, like, okay, I really want to do this because I really want to explore even further than I have ever been, or in places that are not traditional sort of speaking.
**** - (): So in 2000, in two, in 2000, I started, uh, watching on tv, the, uh, adventure, uh, adventure races. And, and it really. This sort of endurance, the sense of adventure that this, uh, events brought. So I started to, to do a little bit of those events. And at the same time, I started to befriend people that were doing a little bit of what we currently call gravel.
**** - (): So it was basically, it was off road riding on, uh, on dirt paths. So it was, and I'm bringing this, and it was where it was early 2000 when I started to say, Okay. I want to go and explore with these guys or parts of the country. So, so there was always that in my mind and, and, and for me, it was still like this sense of exploration.
**** - (): So we did, so 10, 12 years ago, we started doing road cycling, but I always felt that itching, like to tell people there is also one beautiful side of Columbia that it's absolutely Magnificent. Uh, and it's even more challenging perhaps that, uh, that a road bike trip, uh, and it was, uh, uh, I, I have to admit to everybody, like in the beginning, I was very dubious about, about the gravel thing, because, uh, Because for me, it was a, it was like, is this either mountain biking, uh, and road cycling?
**** - (): It was not clear. And to be fair, uh, seeing the terrain in Colombia, it's still very complicated sometimes to say, to define it, okay, this is road cycling or, or this is mountain, sorry, this is gravel, gravel cycling, or this is mountain biking when you have a 15 kilometer climb at 10%. I mean, probably sometimes for some people, a gravel bicycle might be a little bit undergeared.
**** - (): As you were mentioning. So, so, so, but, but I started to doing it and I started to think of it like, okay, this is a great way for me to, I mean, there was sort of the market opportunity. It was a growing as, um, as a, as a trend. In cycling. So, and, and basically it made sense that it made sense at some point.
**** - (): Okay. Okay. We, we, we have, uh, just after the pandemics, I was like, we really have to do something that is gravel related. I was getting my first gravel, my proper gravel bicycle. And I was like, okay, we, I think that there is some merit to having a new category in the whole industry. Okay. And I, and I was completely sold on the idea, uh, on the idea of gravel bicycle for, for myself.
**** - (): Therefore, as I was telling you, once I'm sold on myself, I can tell like, okay, I want to take people to go and do all these great adventures that we safe, great safe adventures that, that I want to, to create. So for me, that, it was, that was the case that was basically the case on how we became from an idea, A little bit of personal, uh, or personal history and combining them into, into creating a, uh, sort of a business opportunity.
[00:17:35] - (): Craig Dalton: So now you've got the gravel bike and you're sort of able to free your mind of thinking, okay, I don't only need to be on the road, but I can go on the trail. You shared with me a really fantastic looking gravel trip. Talk to us about how you sort of conceived of the route and give some details. Where are we starting?
**** - (): What are we experiencing?
[00:17:59] - (): Tomas Castrillon: So how it started or how, like, basically for all trips, like, like how I, I, I start to think of a great way to connect to spots, like, uh, so two big spots on the, on, on, on the map, right? So you, like, some people know about Columbia. And some people know about Bogota and for example, me is getting all this attention at this moment.
**** - (): So you start thinking, Hmm, okay, I want to create an itinerary that connects these two dots on, on the map. And, um, and, and you realize that, and, and I know that, okay, we have, we have had an itinerary that connects Bogota to imagine on a, on, on the road for. I mean, it's our flagship prep is still our best selling trip, but there is still these, uh, people that want to take it to take the adventure a little bit further.
**** - (): So I basically start to think, uh, on, uh, trying to imagine how a route like this one will be perfect. And I just start putting the pieces together and creating an itinerary that is going to be both challenging and beautiful and has everything that I want about a, our, a cycling trip, like great accumulation all around, all along the road, because that's actually One of the hardest thing to, uh, to sort out in Columbia.
**** - (): We are still particularly in rural, in rural areas. We, we are still, uh, lacking like the tourism infrastructure in many places. So when you're thinking about putting together a trip, like you have to, uh, deal with all these constraints and find like the best, the best route that really makes people happy to come over and makes people safe to come over.
**** - (): And, and it's a route that is interesting and it's a route that has, uh, many, uh, points that, uh, many places that, that, that can be a landmark for, for people to see. So when thinking about that district in particular, I would start looking into a route. And so I know that I want to get away from, like, usually what I want to see is for people to test their, test their stamina quite a few times over these mountains.
**** - (): So going up and down, going up and down and finding, like, a, Being captivated by this country as much as I am, right? So that that's basically how, how it begins and how it, it really develops into finding the best, uh, path for that one.
[00:20:31] - (): Craig Dalton: I'm always curious when you're, you know, when you're bringing a, um, A group of mixed people who don't know one another to to a trip.
**** - (): It's often difficult to assess people's abilities and kind of create the right amount of climbing and descending and technical abilities. I know. I recall on one trip. I went on prior to signing up. They sort of gave us a little road map. Like, you know, You ought to be able to do this if you're going to enjoy this trip.
**** - (): And I thought that was interesting. You know, gravel is so complicated because, you know, you can have the best road cyclists who can go uphill super fast, but the moment they get off road, they may be challenged. And, or ironically, maybe. When they start going down the hill, that's when they're terrified.
**** - (): They go uphill really fast, but going downhill is really complicated. So I'm curious if there's any sort of guide guidelines you put out there in advance for riders to make sure they're going to have the skills to have an enjoyable time.
[00:21:26] - (): Tomas Castrillon: Well, we try to create a, uh, uh, a brochure that has like all the details, like to give you a real perspective on that one.
**** - (): It's never going to be easy because as you know, like the terrain can change for some people can thrive on wet conditions and somebody can be scared to death on a, on a dirt path that is, that is washed out. Right? So it's very, very complicated. And that's when I think that the support team really comes into play.
**** - (): A to make you feel like you can do it like I, I, we can come into this one later, but, but, but, but the, but the, the, the name of the company is about that inspiring people. And I know that. We are all capable of things that we really sometimes don't think that we are capable of doing it. So there is always like this sort of encouragement side from the team, like to make sure that it like for people to feel comfortable about like stepping outside of their comfort zone.
**** - (): Right? So I really want people sometimes to I mean, they might, they might achieve it or they might not, but at least to give it a try. And for us as a team is basically to, uh, give people the tools for doing that. Basically, that's, that's, that's where, uh, that's, uh, that's basically what, what we're trying to do.
**** - (): So in those cases, it's, uh, particularly on a gravel trip is basically offering enough support for everybody. I, either for the fast riders, like fast in terms of gravel or fast in terms of road cycling that they can go up very fast or, uh, or like, or for those who might be struggling a little bit more, like trying to find these balances, absolutely the art of, uh, of putting a trip together, like trying to find some nice details that can help people, uh, enjoy their experience.
**** - (): And in the end, like, this is something that I tell everybody, like, I know, eh, that people like, particularly if you're writing at the back, you might get a little bit, eh, worked up because you feel I'm dragging the, the, the, the, the rest of the group or I'm being the slowest writer. And I tell people, don't worry about it.
**** - (): Like, well, or, and, or the fastest riders are going to, uh, get upset with me. And I'm like, don't worry. A, it's our work to make sure that everybody gets the ride that they deserve. Right. Regardless of like their skill level and B. You know, like, and this happens all the time. It's like, or I, I, or it has been, my case is that in the end we are all cyclists and we all recognize, eh, the, the, the different, eh, stages that we are in our development as cyclists.
**** - (): Right. And in the end, it's when particularly when you're thinking about a bike trip, it's making sure that we are all sharing this experience all together as a team, right? So I'm creating that kind of atmosphere of, okay, this is teamwork sort of, uh, sort of talking. Without a, and, and, and let me be very clear about it without a making like the super fast guy, like going one kilometer an hour is never not the point.
**** - (): It's like for everybody to enjoy at their own pace. Right. So it's for us as a team to create like the conditions for everybody to enjoy and for a team to come together and say, like, regardless of our level, we are all going to have a great time riding our bicycle. Yeah. I think
[00:25:09] - (): Craig Dalton: it's definitely, there's definitely an art to it as a travel service provider, making sure that you can find a way for everybody to have fun regardless of their ability level.
**** - (): Let's talk specifics on this gravel trip. So where are you starting? You know, what is, I assume you're starting in a, in a sort of larger city or community and then you're going out into the wilderness. Just talk us through. Correct. All right.
[00:25:32] - (): Tomas Castrillon: Yeah, sure. Like the trip, as I was telling you, Bogota to, uh, to Medellin, we start just north of Bogota, like the, uh, the sprawl of Bogota as a city is very big.
**** - (): And so we are not riding properly in Bogota, but it's an international airport. So if you're flying from the U. S., it's very easy to access and we move just north of the city and we start moving. And we are first, uh, Like trying to, uh, going West, basically. So we're basically going up and down, like the first few, the first two stages, we are going up and down the Cordilleras.
**** - (): And so the Cordilleras, it's really like the mountain range itself. So it's going is, you know, you really don't find an end to them until you really are at the bottom. bottom of the Cordilleras. And how you know it is because you have arrived into a big, big, big valley and with either the Magdalena River or the Cauca River.
**** - (): Those two rivers are the, from a socio economical point of view, are the biggest rivers, the most important rivers in Colombia. So for our American audience, think of them as the Mississippi River is that big or that important for us, particularly the Magdalena. And the Cauca actually, but both of them are like that big.
**** - (): So you're always going up and down, up and down until you get to Magdalena river. Then we move, uh, uh, then we move alongside the Magdalena river for one full stage. So it's, uh, it's, it's one stage of very hot rollers. Uh, so I mean, I would say that that is never really. an easy day. We try to make it a sort of a recovery day because if you would see at the profiles, we have one big day.
**** - (): The first day it's about 18, 1800 meters. So it's about 6, 000 feet altitude. So a lot of climbing still involved on over Over 50 miles or so, like 45 miles, and the terrain can change constantly, it's a half of it, it's a paved, the other half, it's a, a proper gravel, and you're always mixing these two terrains, and that's stage number one, stage number two.
**** - (): It's a, it's a little bit more, uh, it has, uh, it had more climbing. It's closer to a 9, 000 feet of climbing in over overall over the day. And sometimes it can get very muddy. These, these areas, it's, they are a. Like, why Colombia is also known, it's for its biodiversity, and to be this biodiverse as Colombia is, you have, it has to be extremely wet at times, so it can get very wet or very cold, or very hot.
**** - (): So it's sunny, but at the same time, a lot of water is flowing into, into these mountains, so sometimes the roads can get muddy even if, even without rain. So, so it's basically like that. And we get into the Magdalena river, as I was telling you about. And then we have the other side of the Cordillera, which is generally upwards.
**** - (): Like the, the stages itself are also in those 2, 000 meters, 3, 000 meters, both of them into either one very, very big landmark that is the Piedra del Peñol. And the other one, the other stage is basically getting into Medellin. So it's basically finding, finding our way to this maze of the roads, because in Colombia, we, I mean, we do have paved roads and I'm not saying otherwise, but, but the majority of our, of our roads are, are gravel.
**** - (): And how, and it's how these small communities connect between each other and with major urban centers, right? So, uh, and this is, I think that that's what really struck me the most when I, when, when I first did the route as a whole is that when you're doing the Bogotá to Medellín route, uh, on, on, on, on the road, you feel like you're going basically, uh, On on a very, very straight road, sort of speaking, I mean, if these mountains would allow such thing like you're trying to basically basically maximize your speed, while these small roads are like a caress to to to a terrain.
**** - (): So you are you're never going like straight from. Uh, the village A to village B, but instead you are going from the farm of Don Jose to a farm of Don Julio, then back down again to a farm. So you're always up and down, up and down, like going over, like finding your way across the mountains. And I think that that's still is what strikes me the most is how, uh, variable the terrain can get, how beautiful the views can get and, and how constantly you are challenged with, uh, all these, uh, All these aspects of the road.
[00:30:25] - (): Craig Dalton: How many days is the trip in total?
[00:30:27] - (): Tomas Castrillon: In total? I mean, uh, uh, it's five stages and seven days long, the trip.
[00:30:32] - (): Craig Dalton: Okay, great. And talk a little bit about those local communities that you'll be going through. Like as we were talking about earlier, maybe it was offline. You know, you sort of go into a culture and maybe you see a city, but in this experience, you know, we're getting out there into the wilderness.
**** - (): So talk about the communities and maybe the accommodations along the way and the foods that you might experience.
[00:30:54] - (): Tomas Castrillon: Well, yes, Doug. So these are very rural communities. Uh, so, and, and some of them, like all of all, all of these communities are agricultural communities. So each one of them has a special, uh, special crop on the side along, uh, and they are known for, uh, one particularly crop.
**** - (): I mean, uh, since we're, uh, healing several of these small towns. It's, uh, all of them have, uh, have a special thing to them, right? So we get to see some coffee growers, we get to see some vegetables, some, uh, like, uh, uh, peas and all this other stuff, like, it's, uh, it's the number of, uh, Uh, communities is as wide as a, as the terrain.
**** - (): I mean, it's changing constantly. And uh, other places there is sugar cane. Other places are, for example, the bank of a river that was, uh, transforming into, uh, uh, into a dam. And so it's to a dam. So, so it's, uh, so it's, uh. still pre sabbatic, uh, so it's constantly changing. Like, uh, uh, there is everything that you can think about it.
**** - (): So for example, the, the communities at the top of the mountains, they are known for wearing like these big, uh, ponchos. We, and, and some very old people actually still use a, a hat, but very, very tiny. And, uh, as a, as a mean of being, uh, uh, very well put together. And while the people in the, uh, in the, in the valleys, in the hot valleys, they are basically just on jeans and a shirt and with a big, big hat, trying to find a way to cover themselves from the, from the heat.
**** - (): So it's, it's egg changing constantly. The colors at the, at the top of the mountain might be a little bit darker, uh, earthly like, so, uh, uh, greens, uh, uh, browns and all that. While at the bottom it can be completely dark. colorful, right? So it's constantly, constantly changing. And, and, uh, I think that that's what I think that it's more interesting about Columbia.
**** - (): It's so diverse in, and, and as I was telling you, there is so many things to see in Columbia that, and it's so big that, uh, that is never really one thing to, to, to go over the specific of that. Having said that, so we are still, uh, a cycling tour company and we, and we pride ourselves on offering a premium bike tours, right?
**** - (): So the accommodations that we have found for this trip are all, uh, these boutique places that have, uh, uh, farms that have been, like many of them are farms that have been turned into, into, into hotels. And also it's a, like a. Some of them have absolutely fantastic views and, and we're staying in, in this, a very small places that usually when a tour comes in, we are basically booking the whole place for ourselves.
**** - (): And so it's, it's like that the whole time. So it's a, it's a great balance, I would say, because it's having the opportunity of. A great ride in the, in, during the day of, uh, of what's Columbia like. But at the end of the day, we also want to have a very comfortable bed and a great place to have food and, uh, to share our experiences.
**** - (): And that's why we're fostering like this kind of, uh, wholesome experience where, where we bring all this together.
[00:34:26] - (): Craig Dalton: What type of cuisine do you like to serve the guests?
[00:34:31] - (): Tomas Castrillon: Well, we serve everything like we go. I mean, it's a, our cuisine. Uh, like the cuisine that you get in many of these villages is very, uh, uh, peasants like.
**** - (): So the stuff that these guys usually have and what is mostly accessible is, uh, rice, beans, plantains, that's usually like this, uh, stuff, uh, like the, the, the peasants food that you'll find in, in towns. Uh, once we are, uh, on, uh, in, uh, in hotels and all that, we try to aim for, and of course like, uh, we are, we also have a very strong culture of, uh, steak, uh, regardless.
**** - (): So, uh, so we are, uh, I mean it's pea food, so it's agriculture in the sense that it's, uh. That it's very traditional in that regard. And when we get to the hotels, we have a little bit more of an international flavor to it. So again, the whole thing is to share an experience, like have some wine, enjoy ourselves, like have like some balance.
**** - (): Like, of course, like the traditional Colombian life, but also what we are making. What, what we would be used to, as you were saying in Girona or any other place, like, okay, I want to have a proper meal and clean up, clean myself up and be, and having a great time. Right. Yeah,
[00:35:53] - (): Craig Dalton: of course. If you had to think about this trip, are there any favorite personal locations or moments that you would highlight?
[00:36:01] - (): Tomas Castrillon: All of them.
[00:36:03] - (): Craig Dalton: No,
[00:36:03] - (): Tomas Castrillon: I, I, no, I, I, I think that, and it might be a joke, but, but I, but, and it happens to me on, on all these trips because usually, uh, when I'm briefing people is like, Ooh, I love this day. I mean, it's very hard for me to say like, Oh no, there is a stage that I really don't like. Because. There is always this constantly changing landscape.
**** - (): There is always a new challenge, challenges that are ahead. So it's very, very hard for me like to say, Oh, I particularly like one stage or the other, I prefer, I love, I love them all. And all of them have taught me one thing or the other at some point. So it's, it's very hard for me to say, Oh, there is, this is my favorite stage.
**** - (): I, I would say that the second, having said that, I would say that, uh, the second stage is absolutely beautiful, like, uh, but the third stage as well, like, I mean, it's so complicated. It's so, so complicated. It's very, very hard to say, uh, to, to ping on one, on one, just on one, just one stage. I'd expect
[00:37:09] - (): Craig Dalton: nothing less.
**** - (): Right. We wanted, we're, we're coming to your country. We want you to show us the best we can experience. So it's not surprising that you love it all. Final question is just around the, yeah, go ahead. Yeah.
[00:37:23] - (): Tomas Castrillon: Yeah. Yeah. Well, because you say like, Oh, I want to go to Columbia. Yes. I'm very, very curious about what you want to talk to you about.
[00:37:30] - (): Craig Dalton: So I guess my history with Columbia and sort of interest in going in there, it goes back a long way. So in college. I had a classmate who was from Bogota, Columbia, and he was a big soccer player. And it just sort of talked about how much fun he had growing up there and how much he loved his culture. Then fast forward probably a decade or more, my wife worked for an international technology company and she had a project in Columbia.
**** - (): And, uh, I was actually booked on a ticket to meet her in Cartagena. At one point and then something happened and we were unable, I was unable to join her on that trip. And so I literally had a ticket in my hand to go to Columbia and didn't make it. And then over the course of this podcast, I've had the pleasure of interviewing the team from Scarab Cycles.
**** - (): So I got to talk to them and met them. They were at the Envy Builder Roundup in Utah and it reminded me, and they were just talking about how. The climbing in Columbia is amazing. And then when you get off road, it's just a spectacular country. And then I also interviewed someone who did, uh, wrote up a bikepacking route for bikepacking.
**** - (): com around Columbia. So I remember I just took away little bits from all these experiences saying like, this is definitely a place I would love to go to.
[00:38:58] - (): Tomas Castrillon: Yes. It's amazing. It's amazing. As I said, as I was telling you, and, and, and I tried to be as, as As on bias as I can about it, because I think that we were of of microphone.
**** - (): We were talking about a, a Bovan classic in Paso Roles, which is a great event. And I love it, but, but, but, but I think that, that the thing about Columbia, it's that it's absolutely impossible to. To, to tell you and to grasp how big it is. Like it's absolutely impossible. Just once you're here, you're like, Oh, wow, this is just so massive.
**** - (): Like there is really no words about it. It's, it's, it's impossible to put it into one single word or one single, eh, Storytelling about, about Columbia is really something that you would have to experience. And, and, and for example, as your former classmate was telling you, like, for example, the warmth of the people, a positive vibe, people, like it's really not, it's really not about the writing itself.
**** - (): It's about the destination is about the experience that I think that, I mean, I'm still completely in love with. And, and, and, and, and again, I, I'm riding my bicycle. all across the country, like 12 months during the year. And that's another thing that it's important. It's like, like we really do have great, like the temperature is not going to change that much.
**** - (): So it's really like a matter of being prepared, like having a jacket on, like the annoyances of the, of, of the, of, of the rain, but it's never really that cold. It's, it's always entertaining. It's always a beautiful. And as I was telling you, how, uh, how, How the landscapes, the people like Mecca, uh, are really an experience that is so, so hard to, to think about in other places.
**** - (): I, I would say that that's, that's a, that's a beauty of it. And I really do hope that at some point you can make it over. Yeah, I was just,
[00:40:54] - (): Craig Dalton: I
[00:40:55] - (): Tomas Castrillon: was just
[00:40:56] - (): Craig Dalton: going to say, I hope,
[00:40:57] - (): Tomas Castrillon: I
[00:40:57] - (): Craig Dalton: hope many of us who are listening today Can ultimately find ourselves in Columbia on one of your tours at some point, because it sounds magical.
**** - (): Great.
[00:41:08] - (): Tomas Castrillon: Yes. Great. Thank you so much for having me over. Great. Do you have any more questions? No, I appreciate you sharing your
[00:41:13] - (): Craig Dalton: story and I'll make sure everybody knows how to find you and digs into the details of this wonderful trip you've designed. Good.
[00:41:20] - (): Tomas Castrillon: Thank you so much. Yes. It's my pleasure. I'm really looking forward.
**** - (): To, to, to, to like start getting more people on our gravel bicycle tours, because it's, it's really another side of Columbia. It's really another side of Columbia. And, uh, and of course, Columbia has had like these black kids, these are these bad history over the years. And, and coming back to my experience and, and I, I was riding my bicycle during the most troubled times in Colombia.
**** - (): I was riding my bicycle on dirt paths in Colombia during the most, uh, uh, troubled times in Colombia. And I still think that. Regardless of that, cycling got like this aura of, uh, invincibility around it. Like it was like, uh, common ground for everybody. And, um, this is a, like to close it up, like, I think that it's worth telling you, I, with my friends that we do, we used to do adventure racing.
**** - (): I do remember one time that we were in an area that we weren't supposed to be in, and it was the middle of the night, like really. 10, 11 p. m. or something. No, it was closer to midnight. It was or 1 p. m. or 1 a. m. Whatever. I really still don't, uh, and, and it was an absolutely beautiful, uh, full moon. And we got to this place and these guys, uh, were, were like, What are you doing here?
**** - (): Like, but, but, and you know that these were the bad guys are quoting them. But, but they were like, so touched by the fact that somebody was willing to get to know their, their, their side of the story that were like, they just were super friendly to us. So. So, so this, uh, so for, for me, that, that, what that story conveys is that in the end, uh, Columbia, it's such a magical place.
**** - (): Like it's, it really, when, when you start hearing about the stories about Columbia, we would say like, no, it's not possible. Yes. It's possible. Like here in Columbia, everything is possible. Um, it's, uh, it's really mind blowing and I'm sorry. I'm lacking like a more, uh, uh, a colorful language to express it, but, but it really, it's, uh, it's really, it's a play that, Oh, sorry.
**** - (): It really, it's a play that, uh, that really goes beyond your imagination and the places that we go are absolutely stunning. And fortunately it's super safe. It's like things have improved so much for the best that, that is really a play that you should really aim to come over if you love it. Thanks Tomas.
**** - (): Thank you. Great for having me. It was great talking to you.
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Mangler du episoder?
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This week on the podcast we welcome Justin Bowes, a coach at FasCat Coaching. We discuss the evolution of Fastcat Coaching and the development of their training app, Optimize. Craig shares he'll be lining up for the UNBOUND 200 in June and Justin has the tough job of getting him ready. Justin shares his background in racing and coaching and his love for gravel racing. They also dive into the specific challenges and strategies for training for the Unbound Gravel 200, including nutrition, hydration, and pacing. Justin provides valuable insights and tips for preparing for a long-distance gravel race.
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About the Guest(s):Justin Bowes is FasCat cycling coach with over 20 years of experience in the sport. He started racing at the age of 15 and has competed in road cycling, triathlon, mountain biking, and gravel racing. Justin has raced professionally and has coached numerous athletes, including national champions in road cycling, mountain biking, and cyclocross. He is passionate about gravel racing and has an active 2024 gravel race calendar.
Episode Summary:This week on the podcast we welcome Justin Bowes, a coach at FasCat Coaching. We discuss the evolution of Fastcat Coaching and the development of their training app, Optimize. Craig shares he'll be lining up for the UNBOUND 200 in June and Justin has the tough job of getting him ready. Justin shares his background in racing and coaching and his love for gravel racing. They also dive into the specific challenges and strategies for training for the Unbound Gravel 200, including nutrition, hydration, and pacing. Justin provides valuable insights and tips for preparing for a long-distance gravel race.
Key Takeaways:Fastcat Coaching has evolved over the years and now offers personalized coaching as well as an app called Optimize, which provides real-time analysis and feedback for athletes.
Training for a long-distance gravel race like Unbound Gravel 200 requires a strategic approach, including proper nutrition, hydration, and pacing.
It is important to listen to your body and adjust your training based on factors like recovery, sleep, and overall fatigue.
Simulating race conditions and practicing your nutrition and hydration strategy during training rides is crucial for success on race day.
Having a support crew and a well-thought-out plan for aid stations and resupply points can make a big difference in your race experience.
Notable Quotes:"Unbound Gravel is a challenging event, but with proper training and preparation, you can enjoy the ride and achieve your goals." - Justin Bowes
"Training for a long-distance gravel race requires a balance of endurance, strength, and mental fortitude
Transcription:
[TRANSCRIPT]
[00:00:00] - (): Craig Dalton: Justin, welcome to the show.
[00:00:04] - (): Justin Bowes: Hey, Craig, how are you doing?
[00:00:05] - (): Craig Dalton: Um, excellent. I'm excited to have another fast cat on the podcast. Frank on his gosh, it must've been like a year plus ago that we had Frank on board.
[00:00:14] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. That's what he mentioned that, uh, when we first started talking about, uh, bringing you on is I hope you don't mind a project.
**** - (): Um, he said, yeah, it was almost two years ago, I think that he was on. So yeah, this is cool to be on with you.
[00:00:28] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. It's been awesome. I mean, I've been a big fan of the fast cat podcast over the years and I've picked up a bunch. I've never really in the last couple of years had anything super substantive to train for something that terrified me.
**** - (): So we'll get to what that is and why I came back to you guys. But the evolution of fast cat over that time, obviously. That brought on additional coaches, but also built out a pretty amazing application, uh, iPhone app and Android app, I assume.
[00:00:59] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah, it's as, as Frank says, you can actually feel us getting faster and it's like you can feel us growing as well.
**** - (): Um, yeah, with, you know, not only the, the success that Frank and the other coaches have had previous to me coming on, uh, which is the one on one coaching, but implementing. new AI, uh, scripts to, you know, a coaching app that can give you this amazing analysis, just as if you're communicating with a human.
**** - (): Cause it takes all of Frank's 20 years of training peak comments and puts them into this app. And so when you get done with the ride, you get that instant feedback as if, Coach Kat, who is coach Frank, you know, is giving you, you know, that real time analysis just as you've uploaded that ride. Whereas me as a coach, you know, I may see that you've uploaded a ride, but I probably won't make a comment or analyze that ride until like the next day.
**** - (): But with fast cat. It's there and it's right there for you. And, you know, as a coach, it's just like having a, uh, you know, a 24 seven virtual assistant. So it's, it's really cool.
[00:02:09] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. It's been super interesting that the app is called optimize. And basically you can choose from Any number of the fast cat training programs.
**** - (): So if you're training for a gravel race, or you're just trying to get faster in your group ride, you can just pick a plan and then it'll give you a program every single day of the week with built in rest. And to your point, a couple of months ago, I think they introduced coach cat. This AI, and it is pretty amazing.
**** - (): The unlock I think originally for the app was this intersection of. Taking your HR RV, your recovery score and looking at that in the context of what's your workload proposed for the day and making sure if you're in the red in terms of recovery, they're not sending you out on a six hour ride. So I noticed as I was using it, you know, coach Kat would say, You know, you're in the red, do you want me to modify this workout?
**** - (): And then you can just type in, Hey, yeah, I'm feeling crushed. What should I do? And you'll get back a workout. That's kind of slots into the overall plan or vision for where you're trying to get to.
[00:03:12] - (): Justin Bowes: Absolutely. And I think, you know, So with the sleep metrics, more and more people are getting into and really understanding that importance of, you know, we've always been told, get that eight hours of sleep, you know, get, you know, get the bed and keep a consistent, uh, schedule, you know, the sleep hygiene aspect of your training.
**** - (): And it's just more and more as the wearables, uh, whether it's the aura ring or a whoop or your Apple watch or. Uh, garment device or any of those other, um, devices, the metrics that they are kicking out are just getting smarter and smarter and fast cat, the app can collect all that just like you did a ride.
**** - (): And so, like, as soon as you wake up and whatever device you're using uploads it to fast cat. He's already, you know, reading that and gives you that thumbs up or thumbs down on, you know, to go for it or, you know, Hey, let's hold back. And to your point, it's really nice to be able to, you know, have that chat with fast cat coach, um, to say, yeah, yeah, you know, I do feel great.
**** - (): Let's, You know, keep the schedule program or yeah, I do feel kind of worn down. So maybe an active recovery day is, is better or a day off. And so fast KAC coach, you know, can adjust that immediately for you. And so you're on your way and not have to think about, should I, should I not? And it's actually a coach telling you that it's not just you putting a guilt trip on yourself to say, Oh, I know I should, but I've got a planned workout, so I should stick to it.
**** - (): Great. Great. Yeah. I'm getting that feedback just as if I'm your coach or Frank or any of the other Fastcat coaches or your coach telling you, Hey, you know, let's take a day off.
[00:04:57] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It took me a minute in January to kind of get everything set up like the, the head unit integrations are, are totally seamless for Wahoo and Hammerhead and other computers.
**** - (): into the system for me, since I didn't have power at that point. And I was doing indoor training on a Peloton. There was a bit of a head scratcher because there wasn't a Peloton integration at the time. And it took a minute and going back and forth with the team over there to figure out, Oh, if I just at least record my Peloton ride with my Wahoo head unit and a heart rate monitor.
**** - (): At least the data is coming in at that point. Right. So while it wasn't perfect, it kind of got me one step further. And then ultimately, uh, with the thanks to SRM, I did get some of their SRM X power pedals to put power on the bike, which has been a godsend, obviously in terms of our communication and just my ability to kind of really work within the app.
**** - (): I mentioned that all to say. Like I was super jazzed with the optimized app and what it was delivering to me, but what I started to get a sense when some personal travel kicked up for April, this big chunk of time before my target event in June, like I was going to have a problem. I didn't trust that the AI could figure out this complicated equation of.
**** - (): You could training for this big event training for the unbound 200 got a limited amount of time. How are we going to get the volume? How are we going to get all the different things that we need into a program? And that's why I went back to fast cat. And that's where I got introduced to you, Justin. So Yeah.
**** - (): Long, very long intro talking a lot about the Optimize app, but Justin, welcome again to the show. Thank you. Let's just learn a little bit more about your background and then I have lots of questions about what's coming up for me.
[00:06:45] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's crazy. Um, yeah, again, thank you for having me on the show.
**** - (): Um, long time listener, first time caller. Um. Really appreciate, uh, the opportunity to, uh, to speak with you and obviously, work with you now, uh, with getting you on board and, um, get you ready for Unbound. Uh, so my background, um, the quick and dirty is I started racing when I was 15. I watched the 1984 Olympic Games, uh, in Los Angeles, watched Alexei Grewal, from the United States, win the gold medal in the road race.
**** - (): And it was just like, my mind exploded. I was like, what is this? Like, I want to do that. And it wasn't like I was a stranger to endurance sports, um, between my oldest brother and my two younger brothers, all four of us, were involved either with swim team or, uh, cross country and track. Um, and we slowly kind of got into just, you know, riding at that time, 10 speeds as just, you know, part of training for running and swimming and everything else.
**** - (): But it was, it was watching the Olympics and watching Alexi win the gold medal. I was just like, I want to do that. And so that next summer, um, I started road racing, but I also, um, got into triathlon as well. So I grew up in Kansas city. And at that time, there wasn't a huge racing scene in Kansas City. Um, there was in the Midwest.
**** - (): So you had, you know, St. Louis was a hotbed. Oklahoma actually had a really cool old time, uh, stage race called the 89er. Um, Wisconsin, Chicago, obviously with, um, Uh, super weak and, and those crits out there, uh, back in the day. So we would have to travel to do, you know, the bigger bike races, but there was a booming triathlon scene in and around Kansas city.
**** - (): And so, uh, raced in that, uh, worked my way up, um, got my pro card early, got my cat one, you know, about the same time as 17 years old. Um, Yeah, it was just, it was a good time of, of racing and training and everything. We had a really good, um, group of people to train with. Um, then, you know, raced professionally for a few years, um, decided I got, I wasn't making a career out of it.
**** - (): Um, and so it was more like there was probably more to life than just living out of your car and traveling to races to try to get pre money to get to the next race and, and so on and so forth. And so. Um, I did transition to mountain bike racing in the early nineties, um, as I kind of aged out of the juniors and triathlon and road cycling mountain biking was taking off there in the late eighties, early nineties, and so race the nervous circuit.
**** - (): And, you know, was good enough, but wasn't a great, you know, elite pro rider. And so that was when the light kind of turned on. It's like, you know, there's probably more to life than, like I said, living out of your car and going to bike races all the time. And so, um, yeah, I decided to start a family, settle down, have kids, um, and then literally did not touch a bike for, uh, six plus years.
**** - (): Um, you know, I tell people they don't believe me. I don't share pictures, but there's evidence that I did blow up to like 250 pounds at, you know, one point while I was taking a sabbatical. Um, but it was about that time that, uh, my daughter was entering junior high and she wanted to, you know, run track and she wanted to do distance.
**** - (): And so, and it was about the time where I was starting to get an itch to get back into it. The kids were getting old enough. I didn't feel as bad or as guilty trying to like get back into, to cycling. And so, um, Yeah, bought a bike off of eBay, bought some extra large bib shorts from the local bike shop, um, started riding, and then also running with her in the morning before school and work, and yeah, pounds fell off, the training itch came back, the racing itch came back, um, Started racing again in Kansas City, um, helped with some local clubs there, helped with race direction with the tour of Kansas City and some other cyclocross races there.
**** - (): Um, yeah, and it just kind of blossomed, you know, from there. And then, uh, My wife and I, we moved up to Chicago. We lived there for five years, raced in the great crit and cyclocross scene up there, had an amazing time. We were up there for five years, and then now we are based out of central Virginia, uh, just outside of Charlottesville at the base of the Blue Ridge Mountains in Crozet, Virginia, and, uh, now taking advantage of the amazing riding that's here and just, Head over heels, uh, into gravel racing in the last, you know, five years big time.
**** - (): And yeah, just haven't looked back since. So, um, all along the way, um, you know, coaching was a big part of that. And it was kind of a casual thing as far as coaching was concerned. When I first kind of started into it is when I got back into racing. The second time I had, you know, some friends that were running a team, a local club there for You know, new riders to get into, and they asked if I would help, you know, kind of mentor and bring those new riders into the racing fold and kind of introduce them to, you know, the ins and outs and kind of the protocols of training and group rides and, and things like that.
**** - (): And one thing just led to another. It's just like, Hey, what did you used to do for training? And that kind of spiraled into here. Let me help you. And then more and more people are like, Hey, can you help me? And so, um, after we left Kansas city and went up to Chicago, the same thing kind of happened. And I was just like, maybe I should do this.
**** - (): And then, um, I still, you know, I was working full time in the corporate world. I was in it. And, um, still racing and everything, but once we moved down here to Virginia, um, my job didn't transfer. And so my amazing wife, Andrea, she was like, why don't you just coach full time? You know, why don't you do that?
**** - (): And so, um, it's like, maybe I should. And so I did. And so for the last seven years, yeah, I've just been a private coach and I've had, I've Yeah, a handful of national champion, uh, riders in road, uh, mountain biking, cycle cross, um, three from three different countries and road cycling, um, so yeah, it's been really exciting, um, and now I just started with, uh, Frank and the team and Fastcat, uh, here in the last month, um, It's, it's been amazing, full time, you know, transition from having my own coaching business to working with a team of coaches.
**** - (): And that was kind of the allure was working with, you know, nine like minded individuals who shared the passion for development, mentorship, and. Teaching and, um, to be able to like collaborate and have our coaches roundtables, you know, and our team meetings every week and just be able to bounce things off of, you know, other, you know, coaches and, Hey, have you seen this?
**** - (): Have you done that? Um, so I hope that wasn't too long and winded, but, uh, Yeah. That's, that's how we came about.
[00:14:29] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. No, it's great. Yeah. And I, you know, to your point around the fast cat coaches, I've been enjoying getting to know some of them through the podcast and getting their different perspectives.
**** - (): And I could see, you know, some of them have like a strong nutritional background or, you know, different backgrounds to bring to the table, which I'm sure leads to some vibrant conversations in your coaching meetings.
[00:14:54] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we, we all kind of have our own niche. Um, I mean, we all obviously overlap with all the different disciplines, but you know, um, we have some that are really strong, you know, in mountain biking, some are really strong in cyclocross.
**** - (): Some are really strong in road. Some like myself or, you know, kind of jack of all trades, but like, I really love, you know, racing gravel now. And so that's the language I speak. And so, um, Yeah. And so we can share, Hey, what tires are you using? What equipment's best for this race or that course or, you know, things like that.
**** - (): And, uh, you know, I've got an athlete going to, you know, this race who's done it, who's had athletes there and things like that. And so to be able to cross pollinate, um, is, is really cool. And it's, it's really dynamic and exciting.
[00:15:44] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Let's talk a little bit specifically about your experience in gravel, both as a coach and as an athlete.
**** - (): I know you've been passionate about it the last couple of years. What have been some of the events you've been hitting? What do you, what do you like, like to do in gravel for yourself? And what have you been seeing across the athletes you're coaching?
[00:16:02] - (): Justin Bowes: Sure. Um, so as far as like, you know, that, you know, I still haven't done steamboat.
**** - (): Uh, gravel. I want to do that. Um, I'm trying to qualify again for, uh, the world cyclic cyclo cars, world's gravel championships in Belgium this year. I'd really like to go over there and, um, race in the worlds. Um, I missed it by a spot last year, uh, going to Italy. Um, we can talk about that. My. Body just kind of said no bueno during the middle of the race and later found out there was some medical stuff behind it.
**** - (): So, um, got that all fixed, but, um, yeah, gearing up like you, I'm gearing up for Unbound, but, uh, unlike you, I'm only doing the 100. Um, this will be my third shot at it. My first time in 21, I was able to take 15th, uh, overall on that one. And then next year, 2022, I DNFed with a mechanical. Um, and so I punted last year and deferred to, to come back this year and we're going north and I really like the north course more, more so than the south courses.
**** - (): Um, so I'm really looking forward to that.
[00:17:15] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. What do you like about that north direction now that we're on that subject?
[00:17:20] - (): Justin Bowes: Ah, I like the nasty, chunky gravel. Um, I, I think it, it's, You know, it, it's plays more into my strength, um, as a rider, I like the technical aspect of it. Um, the short punchier climbs is very similar to what I train on here.
**** - (): Um, yeah, so it just, it, it fits in really nice. And I also like, this is going to sound really kind of sadistic, but I really like having the headwind on the way back. It really exposes, uh, the, the weaker riders and those who, you know, don't know how to deal with the wind. Um, and so, um, I just remember in 2021, uh, coming back and it was just like sucking on a hairdryer for, you know, 50 some odd miles of just like, it was just, Exhausting.
**** - (): But at the same time, you know, growing up in Kansas city and racing across Kansas and Missouri and Oklahoma, I mean, I was used to it. And so it was, it was, it was almost like I am home, you know, it's like, it felt like being home. And so I was really comfortable with it.
[00:18:27] - (): Craig Dalton: There's something interesting about like places you've trained and how they, your body recognizes them after the fact, when you come back and you're like, gosh, I have existed in this environment, this, this before I kind of get it.
[00:18:40] - (): Justin Bowes: Exactly, and I mean, I, I do really well in heat. Um, my body just responds well with it, and unbound is inevitably extremely hot , um, and uncomfortable. Um, yeah, I just, I, you know, over the course of the, the, the, uh, the race, I just, I mean, everybody loses power. I mean, just because of, you know, the, the natural.
**** - (): ebb and flow of the race and the distance and the duration and everything like that. You're, you're, you're going to lose power, but you know, the heat doesn't really affect me that much in the, in the fact of it, I can prolong that drop in power. Like I can put it off, you know, longer than, than most. And so I can kind of cope with it.
**** - (): And yeah, I know, I think it's mental too. Like when, you know, you do well in a certain environment, um, or, you know, climate. That you're just walking into it and you're feeling like, yeah, I can do this when everybody else is like, oh, it's going to be 90 degrees, you know, and they're already, it's kind of like, you know, when it's raining or freezing cold, they're already shut down before the race even starts.
[00:19:50] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. For those of us who might be heat challenged as a coach, how would you advise your athletes to prepare if climate in their home environment doesn't necessarily get up to those heats?
[00:20:03] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. So it is a challenge, uh, because heat. obviously affects us, you know, differently, even if, even if you're in it, uh, some people just don't do well with it, but you have to be ready for it.
**** - (): And so, um, you know, this is something we, you and I actually haven't even talked about. Um, but it's, it's one of those things where we want to do simulation rides to, um, prepare not only for You know what we're eating and drinking and distance and things like that, but also, you know, weather conditions and it's, it may be, you know, getting you back on your Peloton, you know, in a long sleeve Jersey and leg warmers and things like that, just to, you know, do some interval work, um, while raising that body temperature as much as possible and, you know, restricting the cooling aspect of it.
**** - (): So, you know, the exact opposite of what we talk about when we talk about it. Training indoors of like keeping it 68 degrees and air flow and and all of that. Yeah, but to get you ready for something like that It's more like let's put a you know, thermal jersey on some leg warmers and you know close the garage and you know Sweat it out.
**** - (): So
[00:21:13] - (): Craig Dalton: well, I can I definitely have a hotbox environment in my garage if it's Plus 65 degrees, which I can reasonably get to here in the Bay area. The other thing you mentioned, and maybe just to put it in context for people who haven't done the North route at Unbound or just been out to Unbound in general, when you talk about a short punchy climb, what, what, what does that look like?
**** - (): Give us some parameters.
[00:21:35] - (): Justin Bowes: Sure. Uh, so duration, I know you and I've talked about this, uh, duration wise, you're looking anything from 30 seconds to, you know, as the race goes on, maybe five minutes. Thanks. You know, as opposed to, you know, a 20 minute climb or 30 minute climb or something like that, but just repeated short punchy climbs where it's just like straight down one side and then all your power up the next side for 20 to 30 seconds, you know, to get up and over it.
**** - (): Um, and so that's, those, those are punchy climbs and you're, you know, you're looking at like, you know, anywhere from like seven to 12%, you know, type of gradients. You know, mixed in.
[00:22:19] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. A lot of times, obviously, like when we can see the top of a climb as athletes, if we've got, if we've got the requisite power, we're going to want to push and roll over that right in a race of 200 miles.
**** - (): And maybe there's 400 of said punchy climbs in the middle of that. How should you be thinking about it? And maybe, You can use some terms that we can get into later about VO2 max or sweet spot or like, where do you push to knowing that early in the race? Like I could probably hammer over this thing, but it may not be in my best interest six hours from now.
[00:22:50] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah, and you know, it's again, you know, with Unbound and especially the 200, we kind of want to reverse thinking as far as like, Hey, yeah, I can punch over all of these like really early on. And we want to like, think the opposite and say, let's take our time getting over these and just get over as smoothly as possible.
**** - (): With, you know, putting out as little as power as possible to just maintain, you know, the pace that we, you know, you and I, you know, set upon as far as like our target, um, because course like unbound, it's a death by a thousand cuts. And those thousand cuts are those, you know, punchy hills repeated and things like that.
**** - (): But in addition to the punchy hills, you just have these false flats. Of this never ending horizon also, you know, and so while, you know, maybe you have a section where you have a few rollers or punchy climbs there, you may have another, you know, 10, 15 miles of just nothing but a false flat of like one, 2%, if not more.
**** - (): Where you just don't see the end, you know, that end just keeps moving on you. And, and that's, that's where the mental aspect really comes in of just like not allowing yourself to like, you know, get distracted by the fact that you can't see the end because most climbs We're on we know that we're up and over that climb and we're on to the next, you know, flat or downhill or something like this, where this is just nothing but a grind.
**** - (): And so you just have to keep a mental, you know, a positive mental, um, attitude of. This is what I wanted to do. This is what I trained for. This is, you know, I'm ready for this. And so, um, you know, in everybody's power, I get, I get a little wary of like putting out power numbers, you know, for just examples, just because everybody is so different and the climbs there.
**** - (): because they are technical in nature of because of the chunkiness of the gravel and things like that. Each one is so different. I mean, there just really isn't one that's the same because believe it or not, even the middle of Emporia, like there's a dozen different types of gravel that you're going to encounter and they're all in those climbs too.
**** - (): And so, um, You know, one, you're, you know, you're sitting at, you know, 400 Watts to climb, climb up and over. No big deal. You don't even think about it, but the next one is steeper and chunkier. And so now it's just like to try to put out 400 Watts consistently. It's just like, I can't do that. Yeah. So it's just, it's a matter of, you know, just, you know, again, going back to your mental attitude and, and, and realizing that, Hey, I did the training.
**** - (): I know I can do this. This is just another 30 second type of effort. I'm onto the next.
[00:25:43] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. I'm, I'm confident there's going to be a lot of discipline along the way that needs to be applied as a writer. We all have the tendency of following wheels with enthusiasm, particularly if, you know, I, I won't and will not be doing many events.
**** - (): So this being a singular event or one of a handful this year, I'm going to be enthusiastic and, you know, it's fun to ride in a pack. It's fun to do all these things. And I think it's going to be critical to always just check, check oneself and say, We've got a long day ahead of us. We need to play this out, the long game and be mentally disciplined along the way with our physical efforts.
**** - (): And then also back that up with a strong nutritional strategy that you don't waver from as well. Because I certainly know from my Ironman days, you can make a mistake early and you're just going to pay for it. On the bright side, when you're talking about a 15 hour day, there's always opportunities to recover.
**** - (): Yes. You cannot afford to get yourself in too big of a hole. And I do think it's just about having a system in place for nutrition, for hydration that you're following like a check, check box, like a robot. So just interested to get some, some more detailed comments from you on the nutrition side of things.
**** - (): And you know, should we be writing things down on the top tube? Should we have alarms on our watches? Like, what are some tips to make sure that. We've got a fueling strategy that's going to get us through a long day.
[00:27:15] - (): Justin Bowes: I, you know, as far as, you know, backing up for just a second and, and getting caught up in like the enthusiasm of, especially an event like Unbound, because that is like the center of dare I say, even the cycling world is focused on Emporia, Kansas on June 1st. You know, it's gotten so big that, you know, when you have teams like Ineos sending, you Cameron Worth over to check it out to see if it's even worth, you know, doing it's kind of a big deal, right?
**** - (): You know, you have Peter Sagan dropping in just to check out what's going on and things like that. So it's very easy, you know, that entire week leading up to the actual race day to get caught up in just the swell of, you know, excitement and, and things like that. And then as soon as that gun goes off. And you're surrounded by, you know, 3000 of your closest friends to go do 200 miles.
**** - (): Everybody wants to like be a part of it. And that's, that's like point number one of like, keeping your, yourself in check of just like, Nope, I lined up with, you know, the 14 hour crew or the 15 hour crew or whoever you line yourself up with. And that's who I'm staying with no matter what. And to that point, you know, it's easy to start talking with people and feeling good.
**** - (): And I always tell my athletes. You know, when, when they have a, you know, struggle with, uh, you know, completing a workout or not feeling like they did their workout, you know, the right way, we immediately go back to the nutrition and hydration, uh, question. It's those simple, low hanging fruit, um, aspects of, well, what did you eat?
**** - (): How often did you drink? And if it was an early morning ride, a lot of times, you know, they may have skipped breakfast altogether, or maybe just had like a slice of toast or a banana or something like that just to get them out the door because it was early. And while that used to be kind of. You know, common practice.
**** - (): Now we know that that's not the case and our bodies need way more fuel than what we originally thought. Um, and a lot of us used to train with. And so now it's, you know, make sure, you know, if that, if you means getting up, you know, an extra hour earlier to actually eat a breakfast, that's what you have to do, you know, and as, and, and with you, you know, as we get closer to the event.
**** - (): You know, we're gonna have to start practicing that early morning breakfast routine because you guys go off at 6:00 AM a lot of people aren't used to doing anything at 6:00 AM let alone embarking on 200 mile gravel race. And so, you know, practicing, you know, that fueling strategy ahead of time to, you know, wake, you know, the wake up time, the, you know, pre-breakfast, you know, was that coffee or tea or, you know, whatever it is.
**** - (): And then eating, you know, substantial breakfast. And then getting on the bike and as you're sitting in the corral waiting for the start eating again, you know, and so I like to tell, you know, my athletes, while it's a neutral rollout, it's, you know, it's neutral, it's not, but at the same time, it's, that's, that's another opportunity for you to like grab, you know, another bar, another gel or something like that to stick in your face.
**** - (): Um, because the more often that you can eat, the better off you're going to be because eventually you will get to that point where, you know, just through exhaustion and mental fatigue and physical fatigue and everything like that, it's very easy to stop eating and, and drinking, you know, you're just like, Oh yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll drink in five minutes, you know, or I'll eat again and you know, 20 minutes or something like that.
**** - (): Well, an hour passes and you didn't eat, you didn't drink, and then you're in the hole. And so the tips to help, you know, get the food in and the drinks in, you know, a lot now are our head units have alarms on them, uh, to set, you know, at different, you know, uh, time, uh, periods of like anywhere from 15, 20, 30, 45, however you want to do it.
**** - (): Um, To set reminders to drink or sip or eat or snack or however you want to do it. But for Unbound, you have to eat, you have to drink as often and as early as possible. And also for a big event like that, I like to recommend Real food early as much as possible. And when I talk about real food, it's like, you know, for myself, um, you know, my big ride that I had on Saturday, I make a double batch of pancakes, you know, a batch for me to eat for breakfast and then a batch to take with me on the bike.
**** - (): And I'm eating, you know, a pancake every hour with my drink mix and everything like that, carbs up. So whether it's pancakes or peanut butter and jellies or, bagels, or, you know, I'll get fancy some days and do like mini croissants and ham and apricot preserves, something like that, or pretzel roll with, you know, country ham on it, things like that, where your body can digest and get really good, you know, high, Call it high quality carbs and calories into your body early, because the longer we go, our bodies will then not be able to process that real food later on.
**** - (): And it's, that's when we start switching over to gels and blocks and the really simple sugar stuff, you know, the gummy bears, you know, things like that, um, to just keep the sugars coming and by eating the real food. earlier than you kind of stave off that flavor fatigue that you'll get from the gels and the drink mixes and things like that.
**** - (): Um, and if, if, you know, if your head unit doesn't have, you know, reminders on there, um, I'm a big fan of putting like, um, colored stickers on my handlebars and stems, um, from multiple of reasons, you know, but in this instance, it would be like, Hey, why is that orange sticker there? Oh, it's to eat. You know, why is that yellow one there?
**** - (): Oh, it's to drink. And so, you know, things like that. And then, you know, you hit the nail on the head. Make a little top tube or stem sticker, you know, decal with eat, you know, at this time, at this, you know, you know, make a little checklist for yourself to like run down and eat at, you know, six 30 at seven o'clock at seven 15, you know, whatever it is, just to remind yourself to, you know, constantly eat because.
**** - (): As you, as you're going to find out, those aid stations are few and far between in Unbound. It's not like your local races where they're staffed every 20 miles or something. You have two aid stations and two water oases. That's it. You know, and it's a long distance in between those.
[00:34:08] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, I've started, uh, on my long rides carrying my use way hydration pack and two water bottles just to kind of get into that routine of having that additional weight on my body and bike.
**** - (): Um, and that, that sort of pressure to keep hydrating, I definitely need and appreciated your comments on. The kind of food strategy, I definitely need to think a lot more about what's going to work for me. I've got a pretty strong constitution historically in terms of like, I can eat the same thing all day long, but I don't think I want to do that.
**** - (): Um, so I want to figure out like, yeah, what's, what is my strategy between real food and gels and what's going to be accessible? What's going to work. I've got plenty of questions on like, how the hell do I carry all this stuff? I know we've got a resupply point at one point, but I got to do the math and probably start, um, training with.
**** - (): That volume of, uh, nutrition on me just to get a sense, like, do I have the right places to put it on the bike and where, how is it going to be accessible? Cause nothing's worse than that alarm going off for a gel and it being in your backpack and the hydration pack and you can't reach it. And
[00:35:15] - (): Justin Bowes: yeah,
[00:35:15] - (): Craig Dalton: you got to think these things through
[00:35:17] - (): Justin Bowes: for sure.
**** - (): And that's, you know, that's, you know, why we do the gravel simulation rides or the race simulation rides to not only. Get our bodies ready for the duration and the intensity of the race, but also to get our bikes and equipment ready. So, you know, if you're using a certain tire wheel, you know, that's what we're going to use on our gravel simulation ride.
**** - (): Or I can't tell you the number of times where, you know, people are like, Oh yeah, I forgot where I put my tire plug and my CO2, you know, was it in my frame bag or was in my Jersey pocket, you know, and things like that. And to your point. You got to figure out where, you know, what pocket those gels are going in or what pocket the sandwiches are going in or, you know, whatever that may be and what that feels like, because we all know we have to stuff our faces.
**** - (): But we have a finite amount of room, you know, to put it all on because we also have to feel what that bike, you know, feels like over rough terrain, you know, it's one thing to have a really nice light bike, you know, in training, but when it comes to race day and you're not used to your hydration pack, you know, And all the food in all three pockets.
**** - (): And oh, by the way, where am I putting my emergency toolkit, you know, am I taping it to the frame or am I putting in a pocket or a bag and, and all of those things, and so, um, you know, I tell, I tell my athletes, you know, whether you eat at all or not. You know, at least train with it. So, you know, what that feels like, you know, so you know where to access it and what it feels like when you're climbing, because standing with a hydration pack and three pockets full of food, and if you're wearing cargo bibs and your legs are, Bunchy and, you know, bulging and things like that.
**** - (): You know, what does that feel like? And you don't want to show up for a 200 mile race and be like, that's the first feeling that you've ever had, you know, and it's, it doesn't set a great precedent for the rest of the day. A
[00:37:15] - (): Craig Dalton: hundred percent. This has all been super interesting. I want to jump into a couple of specifics around training.
**** - (): Okay. As we've worked together, as I mentioned, you know, I was, I was doing the sweet spot training through the app in. February. And then we started working together the last week of February, first week of March. Right. And I've been pretty consistent since then, knowing that I had this travel date coming up this week on April 3rd, where I'm going to be gone for about 10 days or two weeks of losing two weekends.
**** - (): And that was the big challenge I kind of put to you is like, Hey, I realized this is, I Really screwy. I need to figure out a way this, to make this work. And when we started working together, I started getting on these intervals and getting the consistency of the training program you were laying out. You know, one of the things that cropped up for me was like, gosh, I'm doing all these short intervals, definitely feeling stronger on the bike.
**** - (): There's no question about that. But I had this nagging feeling of like, am I going long enough? And we talked a little bit about this offline, but it's, it's Maybe just for the listener, just kind of lay out, like, how were you approaching this challenge of, Hey, we've got, I guess, three months to get ready.
**** - (): We've got a two week block in the middle where Craig's not available at all.
[00:38:37] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. So it was interesting because like I said, um, We've got a challenge here. You know, this wasn't like, Hey, a year from now, I want to do unbound 200. Um, I probably should, you know, think about getting ready for that. It's like, Hey, I'm doing unbound 200 and we're three months out.
**** - (): And so, um, that in of itself is, you know, a huge challenge just, you know, as, as an athlete to put that, put that on themselves to say, Hey, this is what I'm doing. Uh, but for a coach to hear that it's, it's like. Oh, man, how do we, how do we make that happen? And so, um, I was, I was confident. Um, I shared with you offline, you know, I worked with an athlete a couple of years ago and got her ready for unbound when, and we started working in January of that year to get her ready.
**** - (): She had done unbound before, so she knew it wasn't her first rodeo. So she knew what she was getting into. Um, but still, you know, for a 200 mile race. The 1st of June and starting in January, it's like, okay. And like, at least you had some fitness, her fitness had kind of like dipped way off. Uh, she had just kind of like taken the winter off and was just like, Hey, I'm going back to unbound.
**** - (): I heard you're a great coach. Can you get me ready? And so, you know, part of me was like, Challenge accepted. And then the other part was like, what did I just sign up for? And so I kind of had a little deja vu with you, Craig, um, when this popped up, uh, with you and with you and Frank. But yeah, getting back to your specific training, um, since you had some fitness coming in, Um, what I, how I wanted to approach this was I looked at it in kind of a couple different parts.
**** - (): One, the actual event that we're looking at, but then the main challenge of you being gone for a huge block of time in what I would consider pretty critical timeframe, um, for our training. And so it was kind of like, yeah, we, we definitely need some saddle time. We definitely need to build up to, you know, as close a distance as possible to get ready for, you know, 200 miles and, you know, likely, you know, anywhere from 12 to 15 hours, um, on the bike.
**** - (): So, but there's two weeks where he's not going to have access to actually riding. And so what, what can I do to. jumpstart the training. Um, and that's how I kind of looked at it. It was just like, okay, we gotta put the, uh, put the jumper cables on here and, and give it a jolt and, and see what happens. And so incomes, you know, our bread and butter at fast cat was, you know, our sweet spot training, um, and adding some intervals into those sweet spots as well.
**** - (): So that we're, we're tapping into all of your systems. Um, we're not just sending you out and doing, you know, four hour rides just for the sake of doing four hour rides just to get in, uh, training. That's, that's definitely an approach, but I feel like if we can touch on, you know, some sub threshold, a lot of sweet spot, um, and even some anaerobic work.
**** - (): In the weeks leading up into your two week, um, off period, then we're, we're really, really kickstarting your fitness to get ready for those longer, harder rides that we have planned for you once you get back. Um, and to let the audience know, you know, you're going to be doing a gravel training camp basically the week after you get back, you know, from being gone for two weeks.
**** - (): And so, um, we'll have a couple of active recovery days. after the two weeks off to kind of get you back into the swing of things. But then you're gone to just basically ride as much as you can, um, to build back up that fitness. Um, uh, that not, we're not losing it in those two weeks by any stretch, but it's taken a hit.
**** - (): And so we have to Start addressing the duration and the longer hours in the saddle. So yeah, I mean, looking back on your, your workouts, I mean, we, we've kind of hit it all we've done, you know, everything from 30 thirties to extended, uh, sweet spot, um, intervals, um, some threshold, um, anaerobic over and unders.
**** - (): Um, and for those that don't know what over and unders are, it's basically like a burst of power. For a short amount of time, you know, 20, 30 seconds, and then you settle into a sweet spot, um, or a tempo style, uh, zone for a while. And then you end it with like another, uh, burst of, uh, power at the end of that.
**** - (): And so a couple of things we're doing with that is not only, again, Trying to build up as much aerobic capacity as possible, but also getting you ready for those type of little punchy climbs that you're going to encounter out in the middle of Emporia, Kansas, to where you will have to put out power to get up and over those, but then you're going to get over them and then you're going to settle back into your, your tempo, your sweet spot type of zone.
**** - (): That's going to carry you on, you know, till the next, You know, climb is going, you know, that, that pops up. So that's kind of the thinking behind it. Um, you know, you work full time too. So it's not like you can just like, Hey, uh, give me six hour rides to do. If that was the case, it would look a little different, but because you have a life outside of this, um, we have to be very strategic with your training and take advantage of the time that you do have.
**** - (): And, you know, you do have, oh, you know, time on the weekends to get into longer rides and we've That's what we're doing. That's what we're taking advantage of but during the week when you have to be accountable to your other Other part of your life. We have to get in as much aerobic training as possible And that's what these type of workouts have been designed to do
[00:45:02] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, it's been super interesting transitioning from indoor training to outdoor training with the power meter and figuring out where I can get the work done.
**** - (): I live in a relatively hilly place, so sometimes it's taken me a bit to just figure out how long will it take me to get to this particular section of road. Where I can do the work required or, you know, go back and forth to do these intervals and make it all work. It's been fascinating. The other sort of funny takeaway for me has been, I swear, like last year, I probably, the, I, the only effort I would ever do would be going uphill.
**** - (): Right here in the Bay area. I mean, there's substantial effort required, but like if I was writing somewhere like writing to Nicosia or some loop around here, I was not writing purposefully at all. I was lollygagging. Like when I look at the power meter now, it's like every, every bit of the workout that's structured, like, I'm like, Oh, I'm actually putting effort in, even if it's like the easy.
**** - (): Period of the workout, right? Because it's all programmed. Right. It's just been fascinating to me and funny. Like I have a lot of chagrin about the whole experience to be honest.
[00:46:14] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. I mean, it's, you know, this whole thing has been interesting for me as well, because you know, not only like, you're kind of, you're kind of an anomaly in the sense of like, you've, you've done training in the past, right.
**** - (): With your Ironman background and everything. And it's not like you're some new cyclist, you know, Come lately and just like, this is what I want to do sort of thing. I'm going to hop on the bandwagon. That's not you at all. But to your point, the purposeful training hasn't existed, you know, for a long time.
**** - (): And then like, we're training for, you know, the biggest gravel race in the world. And then also it's like, I haven't been training with power and it's just like, I have to get some power meters. And it's just like, that's definitely going to help. And so, um, Yeah, you know, coaching you with, you know, understanding, you know, again, it's not like you live in a simple area of like, Oh, yeah, I've got an uninterrupted, you know, 30 minute spot that I can go and do intervals on.
**** - (): It's carless and it's flat. It's perfect. You know, it's like, no, you're like, I've got an hour climb this way. And I've got a 45 minute climb that way. And. You know, it's just like, how do we do this? And so, but then also like how, you know, not only coaching you on, you know, how we're going to get you ready, but then also like, how do you ride with power?
**** - (): Not just outside, but how do I ride with power outside? In my environment, you know, that is not conducive to, Oh yeah, I can do a five minute effort here. No problem. Or this over here is like the perfect loop to do my 20 minute test or, you know, anything like that. It's like, so it's, it's been interesting to say the least, but I mean, to your credit though, Craig, I mean, like when I, when I get the alert that your ride has been uploaded and everything.
**** - (): And I take a look at it. And then you, you do a really good job too, of, you know, of following up with comments, um, which note to everybody out there that has a coach, please make comments to your coach. Um, but you know, to be able to see, you know, what you did and you give me the context of, Hey, this is the route that I did.
**** - (): And, you know, I can take a look at it on the GP, uh, GPS file and see like, Whoa. Yeah. That was, A steep one or, you know, longer climb that what we expected, but, uh, you're handling the training. Amazing. Um, and you know, again, to the audience, you know, the purpose here, the last month is, has been to load you up, to load Craig up as much as possible with, uh, workouts.
**** - (): So when he goes into this two week time, it's actually like a recovery period for him to allow his body to soak up as much of the training as possible. Um, and so when he does get back and we do start piling on the hours, his body's ready for that. So.
[00:49:13] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, I've tried to, tried to stick to the plan , as you guys always say,
[00:49:17] - (): Justin Bowes: FTFP, ,
[00:49:18] - (): Craig Dalton: FTFP.
**** - (): One thing you had mentioned to me in our last conversation was that, you know, my, I forget whether, whether it's the fatigue score in training peaks or something, like we are running in a pretty hard deficit. Yes. And you would normally say like, he's gonna crack at some point. Right. But we, we've been riding, riding that edge and I, yeah, and I feel it, I mean, as an athlete, like I am.
**** - (): Still super motivated to get on the bike, even though I am feeling the fatigue, but I also do feel like I am somewhat on the razor's edge at times and I have to be really cautious about making sure I'm getting the proper rest and the proper fuel in me to kind of recover to go at it. So I am looking forward to.
**** - (): A little bit of time off in the next couple of weeks.
[00:50:02] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah, I bet. No. Um, for those who are, are familiar with training peaks, um, he's talking about his form score or his TSB, um, his training score balance. And, um, a lot of, a lot of coaches, uh, subscribe to this and, you know, I've worn athletes, you know, once we get into that negative 20 to 25, That's like kind of the, those are when the alarm bells start going off of like, Hey, that's usually what we see at the end of a training block.
**** - (): Right. Um, of like a three week build, if we're doing it on that protocol of like, okay, we've gone as far as we really want to push. Um, now it is time for a recovery week, a regenerative week to just allow that, um, work to just soak in and allow your body to recuperate because, you know, in training, the basic training principles are, you know, we throw.
**** - (): stress after stress after stress at you and then your body adapts, adapts, adapts, and then we rest and then it does a full, you know, adaptation and it moves on to the next, you know, training load. And, um, for those who are keeping score at home right now, um, Craig finished the week, um, his CTL was 61, uh, his fatigue or his ATL was 107.
**** - (): And his form is a negative 42, um, leading into this week. Now, today he had a recovery day. He had a foundation stay where his, uh, mobility work, uh, he was off the bike. Um, tomorrow he does have one final threshold, uh, workout to do, but then he is. gone for the next two weeks. Um, and so, as we have it planned out, um, once he comes back, um, to, back home, he will be, his form will have risen back into the positive side with a form, his TSB will be at 28.
**** - (): Um, and so that's well rested and to the point of like, we start losing fitness, um, depending on the individual. Um, and so that's why it's a really, it's a great thing that Craig has this available that he'll be able to go away and do, you know, His own mini, uh, gravel training camp where he'll just have multiple days, you know, in the saddle and we're going to do it to the point.
**** - (): If you don't mind me sharing, Craig, we're going to do it to the point where, you know, we're going to stair step it in because he'll have four days. You have pretty much uninterrupted writing. And I see a lot of times mistakes being made when people go away for a training camp or a team camp or they get their writing buddies together.
**** - (): Hey, we're gone. We're away from home. We're away from work. We're just going to ride, ride, ride. And. Which is all well and good, but if you don't do it the right way, you can ruin your your camp like on day one. And you know, most people like, yeah, let's go smash a six, seven, even eight hour ride. Well, then they're shot for day two and day three.
**** - (): And they're just kind of on the struggle bus, the rest of the camp. And so, um, Craig and I talked, uh, on our last one on one meeting to, you know, stair step those rides so that, you know, day one, um, It's going to be a longer ride, you know, two hours, three hours. That's, that's great. But then that way for the next consecutive days, he can keep adding hours to it as opposed to just doing the biggest ride he can on day one and being torched the rest of the time, because that's not going to do him any good.
**** - (): We're not going to get anything out of this, uh, getaway. If we share ourselves in the foot on day one. So,
[00:53:50] - (): Craig Dalton: yeah, yeah, I'm excited, scared and all the above for, for may. I'm definitely excited to put in the long hours as I mentioned to you in a previous conversation. Like if I was planning this out, I basically would have put every single weekend.
**** - (): Longer and progressively longer distance and more brutal amounts of climbing across the three months remaining. So, you know, it's been, I definitely feel stronger as an athlete already from this approach. Definitely. I'm still concerned about my ability to get to a time volume level that makes me confident showing into the 200 unquestionably.
**** - (): It's, it's unknown. Territory for me. I think the longest I've ever ridden on a bike is 130 miles in a day so that, you know, there's a lot of gray area ahead of me, but I think that is not uncommon for recreational athletes hitting the unbound 200 for the first time. It's the first time for everyone.
[00:54:51] - (): Justin Bowes: And I mean, and to be honest, Craig, there's, there's not many, uh, professional or elite, uh, riders that are training.
**** - (): You know, over 150 miles, you know, and one pop, uh, to get ready for unbound. So you're, you're not alone. Um, but again, it's, it's, it's being strategic with our training and not just writing for the sake of writing. Um, we, we obviously want you to finish and we, and. You know, finishing is one thing, but I want you to enjoy the ride as well and enjoy the, just the environment and being there and being part of it.
**** - (): And if you're just completely gassed because we didn't train you properly, it's, it's just going to be a miserable experience from dawn to dusk basically. And you know, that doesn't do you any good and it doesn't do, you know, anybody any good to, to just, you know, suffer through something. Undeniably, you're going to suffer regardless of, you know, how we train everything like that.
**** - (): That is just a long day. I don't care who you are. Um, and, and it's all relative, right? You know, whether you're Keegan at the front of the race or the very last cutoff finisher, you know, that they keep from the, uh, the checkpoint, the final checkpoint. It's all difficult. Um, and so, um, I'm just trying to make it as less difficult for you.
**** - (): Yeah. Um, yeah, along the way. And
[00:56:17] - (): Craig Dalton: that's definitely one of, you know, one of my stated goals is I want to do it in a healthy way and feel, you know, it's going to be hard. It's going to be hard. It's going to be suffering, but I want to, you know, Enjoy the community. I want to enjoy the people I'm around and I want to get to the finish line and be able, you know, not be a shell of myself.
[00:56:34] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, one thing also, um, just real quick, I was thinking, you know, as far as like nutrition and things like that, Um, one thing I haven't shared with you yet, uh, Craig, is I have like a nutrition checklist, um, for your support staff to, you know, at the aid stations. Um, just, you know, suggested this is what you should have not only for Craig, but for yourself and, you know, for, for those who are doing unbound and you guys who are taking, you know, spouses or partners or teammates as, you know, support staff, um, look out for them as well.
**** - (): You know, they, they need to have. Like their own nutrition and hydration plan as well, because they're out there just doing nothing for a long time. And it's helpful just to, you know, think about, Hey, yeah, um, I should have like a couple of different varieties of drink and sandwiches or, you know, whatever their case may be.
**** - (): So
[00:57:33] - (): Craig Dalton: a hundred percent hats off to anybody who supports the athletes endurance events. I know Uh, supporting my wife's Ironman efforts. I felt like it was harder than doing them myself. Oh yeah. Just because you cut, you cut corners, you know, you're not thinking about that. You're actually on your feet all day as well.
[00:57:50] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. I know. I remember when Andrea did the Chicago marathon, like I ran from, you know, train stop to train stop so I could, you know, catch her at the different, you know, checkpoints. She thought maybe she'd see me once out on course, but there was like half a dozen times that, you know, you're just running around doing different, um, trying to get to different points on the course.
**** - (): So yeah. Tip your support staff for sure.
[00:58:19] - (): Craig Dalton: Amazing. Justin, thanks so much for the time this evening. Thanks for all your efforts on my behalf to date. Uh, it's been a pleasure working with you thus far, and I'm excited to get to that finish line together.
[00:58:32] - (): Justin Bowes: Oh, for sure. Craig, it's been awesome working with you and yeah, I'm equally as excited.
**** - (): Um, you know, it's, it's one thing for me to be training. You know, for my unbound, but when I'm training multiple athletes, you know, for, for unbound as well. And I just, I, I get, I, yeah, I I'm, I'm right there alongside them, you know, no matter what. Um, and you know, seeing you finish and complete your workouts.
**** - (): And when you, you feed me the comments of like, yes, I'm getting tired, but man, my. You know, my spirits are still high and ready to get on the bike tomorrow and, you know, tackle this next workout and things like that. That's just like a, a check along the way for me knowing that, you know, I'm helping you, you know, achieve something that you really wanted to do.
**** - (): And that's really exciting on my end.
[00:59:22] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Fantastic. I know we'll be checking in. Maybe we'll do something again on the podcast. Um, cool. Yeah. But until I talk to you, Have a great night, Justin. Thank you.
[00:59:32] - (): Justin Bowes: Thank you again, Craig.
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In this episode, host Craig Dalton interviews Dean Dahl, the founder of Good Ride Gravel, about his journey into gravel cycling and the upcoming gravel event he is organizing in Chilliwack, British Columbia. Dean shares his background in skateboarding and mountain biking and how he found a similar sense of adventure and exploration in gravel cycling. He discusses the unique characteristics of the Chilliwack area, including its diverse terrain and the growing gravel cycling community. Dean also explains his vision for the Good Ride Gravel event, which focuses on creating a community-oriented experience that celebrates both the sport of gravel cycling and the natural beauty of the region. He highlights the different routes available for participants, ranging from a beginner-friendly 50-kilometer ride to a challenging 150-kilometer route with significant elevation gain. Dean emphasizes the importance of sustainability and community engagement in organizing the event and shares his plans for a lively post-event atmosphere with local sponsors providing ice cream, craft beer, coffee, and food.
Good Ride Gravel
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About the Guest(s):Dean Dahl is an event organizer and gravel cyclist based outside Vancouver, British Columbia. He grew up in the Vancouver area and has always had a passion for outdoor activities. Dean has a background in skateboarding and mountain biking, which eventually led him to discover gravel cycling. He currently resides in Yarrow, British Columbia, a small town just outside of Vancouver, where he enjoys the quiet and scenic surroundings. Dean has experience organizing events in the nonprofit sector and has a deep understanding of the cycling community. He is the founder of Good Ride Gravel, an event that aims to bring together gravel cyclists of all levels and create a vibrant and inclusive community.
Episode Summary:In this episode, host Craig Dalton interviews Dean Dahl, the founder of Good Ride Gravel, about his journey into gravel cycling and the upcoming gravel event he is organizing in Chilliwack, British Columbia. Dean shares his background in skateboarding and mountain biking and how he found a similar sense of adventure and exploration in gravel cycling. He discusses the unique characteristics of the Chilliwack area, including its diverse terrain and the growing gravel cycling community. Dean also explains his vision for the Good Ride Gravel event, which focuses on creating a community-oriented experience that celebrates both the sport of gravel cycling and the natural beauty of the region. He highlights the different routes available for participants, ranging from a beginner-friendly 50-kilometer ride to a challenging 150-kilometer route with significant elevation gain. Dean emphasizes the importance of sustainability and community engagement in organizing the event and shares his plans for a lively post-event atmosphere with local sponsors providing ice cream, craft beer, coffee, and food.
Key Takeaways:Dean Dahl's passion for outdoor activities, including skateboarding and mountain biking, eventually led him to discover gravel cycling.
Chilliwack, British Columbia, offers a unique mix of flat, smooth trails and challenging mountainous terrain, making it an ideal location for gravel cycling.
The Good Ride Gravel event aims to bring together gravel cyclists of all levels and create a vibrant and inclusive community.
Participants can choose from three different routes, ranging from a beginner-friendly 50-kilometer ride to a challenging 150-kilometer route with significant elevation gain.
The event will feature a lively post-event atmosphere with local sponsors providing ice cream, craft beer, coffee, and food.
Notable Quotes:"I realized this is actually a lot like the feeling I used to have as a skater... discovering strange little places and hitting obstacles. I get that same feeling when I'm gravel riding." - Dean Dahl
"We want to be able to provide something that is an amazing opportunity, a gravel adventure that has a high-end component to it." - Dean Dahl
"We're celebrating gravel, but we're celebrating you as an individual. And we're celebrating the fact that you want to be a part of something good." - Dean Dahl
Resources:Good Ride Gravel - Official website of the Good
Transcript:
[TRANSCRIPT]
[00:00:00] - (): Craig Dalton: Hey Dean, welcome to the show.
[00:00:05] - (): Dean Dahl: Hi there Craig, it's good to be here.
[00:00:08] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, good to finally connect. I'm glad to see you got a sip of water right in before we started recording. I thought I had a sneeze teed up, but it seems to be holding itself. Well, you're welcome
[00:00:17] - (): Dean Dahl: to go for it. We can edit that out, right?
[00:00:20] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, exactly. Although the listener knows that I'm not much of an editor, so it is what it is.
[00:00:27] - (): Dean Dahl: Getting live and real. On the podcast.
[00:00:30] - (): Craig Dalton: Let's set the stage a little bit. Where are you, where are you talking to me from?
[00:00:33] - (): Dean Dahl: Yeah, I'm from, uh, I live in Vancouver or just outside of Vancouver, British Columbia, and, um, yeah, my name is Dean Dahl and been out here in a little town called Yarrow, British Columbia.
**** - (): And, uh, it's about an hour, if there's good traffic, east of Vancouver in, uh, the Fraser Valley.
[00:00:54] - (): Craig Dalton: And did you grow up in Canada?
[00:00:56] - (): Dean Dahl: Yeah, I did. So, I grew up in the Vancouver area, uh, recently moved actually out of the city, um, about five years ago. Um, me and my wife and our kids moved out here and it's quite a different, uh, change.
**** - (): It's quiet out here, uh, kind of like, uh, sort of semi rural farming kind of community. With lots of great outdoors, but nothing happens after 9 a. m. or 9 p. m. Sorry. And, uh, being in the city, like I was right in East Van in the thick of it. And, uh, I was used to living life after 10. P. m. So it's a change, but you know, the scenery is great.
**** - (): So that's awesome. And lots of good biking, which I'm sure we'll talk about
[00:01:35] - (): Craig Dalton: for sure. Yeah. I'm always interested to explore like how people found the bike. Obviously, you know, many of us had bikes introduced to us very early on in our lives, and it would give us a sense of exploration and freedom from a population perspective, there's very few of us who take that through line into our mid lives and are still riding a bike.
**** - (): So what was your journey to the bike? Like, and, you know, we can ultimately get to how you found gravel cycling.
[00:02:02] - (): Dean Dahl: Oh yeah, sure. Um, off and on, like probably everybody listening to this, uh, had the classic BMX bike or whatever little cruiser thing and made jumps with it and got my nose banged up a bunch when I was a little kid, which is all kinds of fun stories in themselves, but whatever.
**** - (): Um, My, I was just actually thinking about this the other day. My uncle was a really interesting character in that he had a real passion for serving young people. And, uh, he lived in the same town I did, and he actually started up a small group for, for teenagers and young kids. And he would take us on camping trips and hiking trips and, uh, overnighters and things like that.
**** - (): And, um, kind of set up his own organization with it. And I remember going on, um, You know, in the Pacific Northwest, we have a whole bunch of what we call the Gulf Islands here, all up from Seattle, up the coast, all the way to Alaska. They're beautiful. And around Vancouver, uh, he had arranged this, uh, this bike tour for us to go when I was in grade 11, around one of the local Gulf Islands.
**** - (): And, uh, I got a road bike for it and. Put panniers on it. And it was kind of my first expression of being able to be on the road, packing, gearing up stuff. And I thought, this is amazing. So from that point on, I got really interested in bike riding, but that was, you know, fun. But then, um, I kind of got distracted by skateboarding and turned into like a course skater for years and years.
**** - (): Um, and, uh, did a little bit. Uh, on the side of that, I discovered mountain biking in kind of the mid nineties, I guess, and bought, uh, you know, an old Kona hard tail thing and lived on the North shore at the time and was doing mountain bike racing a couple of seasons there and got just really exhausted from.
**** - (): pushing my bike up the hill and then slamming as I was riding down it. So that was a short lived season. Uh, but it was still really fun. Like I was talking to you, Craig, before, um, I realized now that a lot of the mountain biking I did in the past was actually gravel riding without drop bars. I remember having a picture of John Tomac Um, on my wall at some point and him, I thought he was so cool because he was mountain biking and yet he was, he had drop bars on his mountain bike and I was like, those are dark bars.
**** - (): Like I had when I was touring around salt spring Island and he's riding a mountain bike. Like I'm right, like I want to ride a mountain bike and myself. He brought those worlds together and I didn't click at the time what was going on, but now that I'm gravel riding a lot, I think, yeah, yeah, that's cool.
**** - (): That that's, that's the deal.
[00:04:46] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. It's funny when you think back to that period, it's like, why didn't it click then? And I think there's so many like little reasons why it wasn't right until sort of your, your 2014 era for the bikes to actually come together and form the basis of what is gravel riding today.
**** - (): Uh, it's super interesting. And I love those old Tomac photos for sure.
[00:05:10] - (): Dean Dahl: Yeah. Well, you know, I w I wonder if, uh, mountain biking had to find itself or discover itself and had to really move away from all things road bike so it could find its own identity and now maybe it's mature enough that people can dip in and out of that road style, the gravel style without a feeling, I guess.
**** - (): Threat to mountain biking? I don't know.
[00:05:30] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, who knows? Who knows? I'm interested, you know, you mentioned your, your passion for skating for many years. Do you see there, like, any similarities between skating and cycling in terms of what it delivers to you? Or are they two just distinct areas of your brain and body?
[00:05:48] - (): Dean Dahl: No, uh, well, I think that, um, for gravel cycling and skateboarding, there's actually a lot of similarities and I'll talk to them about them in a second. But in terms of my experience going from skateboarding into cycling, not that I've stopped skating, but I do it a lot less, that ground is not getting any softer as I get old.
**** - (): Um, I just got into road biking because I realized that I'm not skating as much as I needed to, to keep fit. And I needed something that was low impact. So I got a road bike and just started racing and that was amazing, but it was a totally different rush except from hill bombing, which felt the same. Uh, but then gravel biking came along and I realized this is actually a lot like the feeling I used to have as a skater.
**** - (): Like, Going to the city with my crew, uh, going on a road trip and looking around the dark corners and alleys of a city and out in these strange little places where you can find these cool skate spots and you're right, you're rolling to them and from them and you're hitting. You know, whatever obstacle and thinking, Oh, this is amazing.
**** - (): I get that same feeling when I'm gravel riding, like I'll ride for my house. And I'll be like, Hey, I've never seen that part of the hill before. I should go check it out and see if there's any trails there and riding with my friends. And we're discovering, Oh, let's try this. Oh, it's a dead end. Let's turn around.
**** - (): Let's go do this. And it just felt like, you know, when I was 10 years younger, skating cities and. That kind of thing. So I would say that there's a not really, really, really a practical line, but really an emotional feel that I get from gravel riding that connects to skateboarding.
[00:07:29] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, that lands with me.
**** - (): I mean, I think as I think about designing routes for my own personal use in any given week, there's some creativity in looping together the trails, the roads, the mountain bike, single track sections, and. A given route in a given area of our little mountains here can feel radically different depending on how you approach it and what you tie together with it.
**** - (): And I think much like skating where bringing your crew on an adventure, like you're taking the lead and you're like, Hey, I found this spot and then let's skate over to this spot. Gravel ride route planning and bringing a group out there. I think it's quite similar in that you just want to show them a new way to experience the, you know, the terrain around your house.
[00:08:17] - (): Dean Dahl: Yeah. Yeah, totally. And it's really fun actually. Um, as I've gotten into gravel riding, I'm, uh, connecting, uh, through Instagram, but a whole bunch of different ways with skaters that I used to skate with back in the day that also bought gravel bikes and, uh, that are cruising around and they're hitting trails in the city and doing things.
**** - (): Actually, you want my one friend just posted on Instagram, uh, on his gravel bike. He's got a really nice titanium gravel bike, but he's like riding downstairs and like, um, doing little ollies on banks and stuff. And I'm like, dude, you're skating on your bike. That's hilarious. It's hilarious. that escape deal, but he's doing it on a gravel bike.
**** - (): Right. So he's got the same adventure.
[00:08:59] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. I love it. I love it. We're going to get into a great gravel event that you're organizing for this may, but I wanted to tease out earlier in your life, You know, Had you been producing events and had you had any experience doing events before kicking this one off?
[00:09:16] - (): Dean Dahl: Yeah. Um, I've, uh, I'm kind of an event planner. Um, a lot of my career has been spent in the nonprofit world. And, uh, so I actually kind of helped found a skateboarding nonprofit within a larger nonprofit organization. Um, so I was doing a lot of skateboarding events and doing a lot of fundraising events for the larger umbrella organization as well.
**** - (): And, uh, as I got more into my career, I became better at it. So I kind of moved up into more senior circles in those nonprofits that I was working for. So a lot of the events that I was running, um, especially towards the end of my nonprofit career, uh, were, um, fundraisers and, uh, they were the classic peer to peer, you know, I'm going to do this a hundred kilometer, uh, cycling event and I'm going to raise money for this cause it's going to be great.
**** - (): And so I did, uh, a lot of those. And over the years, I kind of honed that to doing a lot more kind of bespoke tours where we'd get a small group of people. They'd raise a lot of money each and it wasn't a huge amount of people because we thought we could provide a better experience by doing something smaller, uh, really intentional with our, uh, with our friends that would want to ride with us and we'd still raise a lot of money and it was great for the organization.
**** - (): So I have a history in that, um, and, uh, that. I guess. And well, as well as that, the last couple of years, I was hosting specific gravel races. And again, they had a fundraising component to them, uh, but they were a lot more in the, they were increasingly becoming more sport oriented. And, uh, that was partly intentional on my part.
**** - (): And we can talk about that later, but I found that there's a, an odd space that the cycling community, specifically the gravel community sits in where it's, um, uh, It's attractive to both people in the nonprofit realm who see something like a gravel event as something dynamic and a vital, like a community with lots of vitality in it.
**** - (): And they want to be a part of that because it's an exciting thing that can represent their nonprofit through which they can raise money. So that's one way of looking at that community of cyclists. The other is through the business realm that sees it as, Oh man, this is a great marketing opportunity for me to sponsor races or to put my name on it.
**** - (): Our brand on this cool new community. And, uh, for my, from my perspective, the races that I was organizing, I just really felt like the organizations that I was helping produce these events for didn't understand the community of cycling and they weren't treating it well enough. They weren't going through the due process of looking on the race calendar.
**** - (): Are we intersecting with another race that's happening in the same city? Are we actually doing the due diligence to get permits properly, to make sure the police know about our presence on the road? Are, do our cyclists know how to ride properly on these, on these trails? Um, And I'd get calls from mountain bikers or gravel cyclists after and be like, Hey, what's going on?
**** - (): I heard about this event and people on the, you know, on my favorite trail are complaining about all the cyclists on the trail. I just realized, Oh man, through a good intention of doing a nonprofit work, raising funds through cycling, we're actually doing a disservice to the community of cyclists. Through it.
**** - (): And I really wanted to address that in the events that I do to be able to create an event. That's actually not just something that you show up to do your race and you're gone and not something that you show up to because you have this other thing that you're raising money for, but to have something that really honors the community and says, this is something amazing.
**** - (): We're all passionate about this. Let's build a community and let's make this community amazing. So that's a long answer to your story about my history and running events.
[00:13:06] - (): Craig Dalton: So, I mean, let's name, let's name, let's talk about good ride gravel. Yeah. Like let's talk about one, you know, you talked about some of the motivations about why you created it, but let's kind of dig into that.
**** - (): Let's dig into, What's your vision for this event this May?
[00:13:24] - (): Dean Dahl: Yeah. Uh, we are basically hosting a kind of a sport forward event that really focuses on the community of gravel cyclists. Uh, there's a, uh, an increasing amount of them here in the lower mainland in Metro Vancouver area. And, uh, they are an emerging group and they are.
**** - (): Kind of, kind of referencing back to my skateboarding days, they feel like a skate scene in a sense in that it's just this new thing and people are trying to discover what it's all about. And they're really stoked on being able to do things that are, you know, really gnarly in some cases and really smooth on the other adventuring, like what you're talking about.
**** - (): And we want to be able to provide something that is an amazing opportunity, a gravel adventure that has a high end component to it. So you can come, you can race it. We've got podium prizes with cash. Um, so those people on the sharp end of this, uh, of the scene, uh, we've got a couple of pros coming, which is great.
**** - (): And they're pushing their community to come and enjoy it. But on the other end, we have people that have never really tried gravel cycling again. But during COVID they bought a gravel bike and they've been riding it for a couple of years. And now COVID is kind of, we're kind of finding our way past COVID and these people want to get involved in events.
**** - (): They have this passion for cycling. Now they want to find the community connected to that passion. And so whether they're pro cyclists, whether they're sponsored racers or whether they're just those adventure people that want to get out and ride for an entire day and see if they can do it, we're all going to come together at the same point.
**** - (): And we're going to focus on, Hey, this is actually a community thing. It's more than just a race. We're celebrating gravel, but we're celebrating you as an individual. And we're celebrating the fact that you want to be a part of something good. And so that's kind of what it's about. And on top of that, I really believe that when people get together, they want to feel like they're a part of something bigger than just themselves.
**** - (): And so we have a fundraising component to it. I found this really cool, small nonprofit in the city that we're doing this event called Restorative Cycle, and they just work through a restorative justice process to help people that have been, um, that are underserved in the community or that have had issues, uh, in the criminal, um, system.
**** - (): In the past, um, to help them back on their feet by providing bikes for them, programs for them, uh, even like bicycle repair. So we're going to be able to sponsor that group and raise some money for them. But again, it's about a community getting involved to benefit a larger community beyond it. So that's kind of the nature of what the good ride gravel is about.
[00:16:02] - (): Craig Dalton: Gotcha. And so for this particular event, you're coming at it as a sort of solo operator. You're not confined by previous relationships you had that were defining the event. This can be your baby and your vision, right?
[00:16:17] - (): Dean Dahl: Yeah, definitely. That's very freeing in some cases and you know, probably as you know, if you've organized events before, that's also like, Oh, crazy time.
[00:16:27] - (): Craig Dalton: Super scary. Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. I have a lot of, a lot of respect for anybody who holds up their hand and, and organizes events because it's, it can be thankless work and you just hope that the event day goes off well and you get those, uh, vibes of appreciation from all the riders who have a great day out there.
[00:16:45] - (): Dean Dahl: Yeah, and you know, it's been fun Craig listening to your podcast and hearing from the other guests that you had their joys and struggles in finding their way through organizing these events running these races been really fun to hear the stories from the people that you're talking about. About these events.
**** - (): And I really, um, I really feel what they're feeling. So I sit right in that too, but I love it. And again, for this event, it's our first year doing this specific event. Uh, our team has run events before, so we're familiar with cycling with gravel cycling, but we're trying something new. And so we're. Being honest that we don't have a lot of resources to make this happen, and we don't have a lot of time because we all have other things that we're doing.
**** - (): I'm not going to make a full time career out of this race. I want to do things along with this. So we're going to keep it sustainable. We're going to start small and we're going to do it really well. And, uh, from there, we're going to evaluate and see, okay, what can we do next year to incrementally build this up?
**** - (): You know, we want to be, I don't want to burn anybody out, including myself. And we want to make sure that our people that come really, really enjoy the vibe of it and feel like, yeah, I could do this again. I could bring a friend next time.
[00:17:59] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Let's talk about the community of Chilliwack BC. Why, why there, what's so special about it from a community perspective and also a terrain perspective?
[00:18:09] - (): Dean Dahl: Yeah. Uh, Chilliwack is again, like it's an hour outside of, uh, Vancouver, British Columbia. It's kind of right on the border. Actually from my house, I can see into the United States, uh, which is kind of fascinating. So it's literally right on the edge and it borders at the very end of the Eastern Fraser Valley, which is a massive river Delta of the Fraser River that comes down into the ocean.
**** - (): So, um, there is a really unique mix of a Dead flat, um, kind of prairie as the Fraser dumps out into the ocean and also it's on the very eastern or the western border of the Cascade mountain range, which goes down into Washington state. And so you get this really interesting, uh, and almost drastic.
**** - (): Confrontation where you'll be riding flat, flat, flat, flat, flat for a long time. There's lots of dike trails around here that are like buttery, smooth, perfect for riding on. It feels great. And then all of a sudden smash you're right on better mountain, which is like, you know, mountain bike heaven for a lot of people in the Vancouver area.
**** - (): And you're climbing serious terrain right now. And it just doesn't stop. And then you're at the forest service roads and. You could literally ride forever from there. Like Canada is a big place and it goes on forever. So there's that really interesting scenario of, uh, you know, something that's really, um, smooth and flat and fast, and also something that's really technical and aggressive, um, for that.
**** - (): So in terms of the, uh, the, uh, the draw it has, it's an emerging community. It's a, it used to be a small kind of a farming city that's turned into a bedroom community of Vancouver. A lot of people are commuting from Chilliwack and Abbotsford, the Eastern Fares Valley to Vancouver, similar to what has gone on with Squamish.
**** - (): And a lot of people call this like the next Squamish, Vancouver's new backyard. In that it's close enough that you can live here. It's a bit cheaper than living in the city and yet you're far enough away that you feel like, Oh man, there's a lot of terrain to explore. Lots of forest service roads, you know, let's just go out and have some fun.
[00:20:18] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, sounds ideal for those Vancouver based riders and around there who maybe don't know where to go up there to have this as a jumping off point for their exploration of that valley.
[00:20:28] - (): Dean Dahl: Yeah.
[00:20:30] - (): Craig Dalton: When you think about the three different routes you've laid out, what were the different goals there? And maybe you can sort of talk about each route in terms of the distance and the amount of climbing you're going to be doing.
[00:20:41] - (): Dean Dahl: Yeah, sure. And sorry, I don't know miles that well I'll be in kilometers meters. Yeah. So maybe put in the show notes, you could put all the mile or the Imperial stuff. Uh, yeah, we got three routes this, uh, this, for this event in May. And, uh, starting off as we just got our party ride, it's 50 kilometers. It's.
**** - (): Dead flat. It's all on these beautiful, buttery, smooth dike trails. And uh, it's going to be just a fun tour. We've got kind of a bit of a lollipop route that goes out and back, explores a couple different communities. Uh, but it's pretty much all off road. There's a small portion at the beginning, a couple of kilometers that you have to ride on the road, and then it's just all flat gravel.
**** - (): And it's meant to be just something, Hey, I've never done a gravel event before. Oh, I just got this bike and I feel a little nervous, but, um, can I do this? Yeah, I can. It's 50 kilometers. I'm, I got all my friends along. Um, it's going to be great. So we've got a bunch of snack stations and, you know, photo booth kind of things, you know, fun stuff to make it feel like, Oh, this is a fun little event.
**** - (): And it's again, that entry thing that people can do it and feel like, okay, I'm ready for something more challenging next year. So that's our 50k. We just call it the good ride. And, uh, then we have our, what we call our very good ride. I don't know, they're cheesy titles, but whatever. And it's a hundred K and it is kind of a medium course.
**** - (): It starts to explore that terrain that I was talking about. Up the side of mountains. So you're starting on, um, you're doing about, I don't know, five or six K to access the first forest service road. Then you start climbing. It gets a bit intense. You come down, it's great. And then you hit a really heavy climb.
**** - (): You're going to max out at 20 percent on that climb. And it's a mixed terrain, a bit of a technical downhill. And then you get to celebrate the fact that you did those two climbs and that technical stuff with that. gravel dike thing and you're doing the same lollipop route that the 50k people did. So you get a really kind of even mix of, um, some, you know, good single tracks, some good forest service road with the smooth kind of finish, uh, to bring you to the event village again.
**** - (): The big one, which we call our crazy good ride is, um, it's going to be 150 kilometers and it's about, uh, just over 2000 meters of elevation, probably 2200 meters of elevation. And that elevation is serious. Like it, uh, it, it's a good. Wall in front of you, uh, great forest service roads with all kinds of mixed terrain.
**** - (): You're just right from the start going hard and going up and down and up and down and experiencing everything out here. It's wet. It's like rainforest. So there's no big sprawling gravel roads. It's like, okay, you've got the tree canopy. You're in this Emerald green forest and there's moss and ferns everywhere.
**** - (): And you're riding mixed terrain, some mud, some gravel, some dirt, All kinds of stuff and it's up and down, up and down, up and down. And, uh, again, you've finished all that after about 90 kilometers, a hundred kilometers, and then you get to ride that really smooth. Um, Dyke lollipop thing to finish again, um, to, to, you know, sprint to the finish, so to speak.
**** - (): So it's a good mix of both for everybody. You get the smooth terrain if you want to just take it easy for the day and do the 50 or you get the hardcore experience of, man, I can't believe I did this for the 150.
[00:24:07] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. It's kind of interesting the way you're describing it. I was thinking about, you know, if you're at the pointy end of the sphere, attacking all that aggressive terrain.
**** - (): To begin with for the first a hundred K and then having this relatively in perspective, tame terrain for the last 50 K, it's just going to be really interesting to see how it pans out. Like there's a group of merge from the forest and the climbing, uh, together, or, you know, or the technical riders separating themselves from the pack and then doing a 50 K time trial on the smooth terrain to try to bring it home.
[00:24:42] - (): Dean Dahl: I know. Well, it's very interesting because if you can keep a pack going somehow through that last, uh, that last climb, the last one that's, it's about 450 meters of elevation and then a technical, there's about two kilometers of technical single track to get you back down. To the flat. Um, if you can stay in a group there, then you can draft and it becomes an entirely different race because the last 50 kilometers, it's all, it's, you almost need to be a good road rider to make that happen if you want to finish first.
**** - (): Right. So, yeah,
[00:25:12] - (): Craig Dalton: yeah. It's one of those interesting races. I really enjoyed, for example, my conversation around the rule of three. Growl in Bentonville, Arkansas with Andy Chastain. And it's just fascinating to kind of game play out if you are racing these things. Cause a lot of us go in it and we're just kind of out there to enjoy the ride and test ourselves to see if we can, you know, achieve a crazy good ride.
**** - (): But for those at the front end of the spectrum, it's, it's pretty interesting to kind of game play out where your skillset lies and technical riders are going to have to bury themselves to get enough of a lead that. A pack won't hunt them down in those last 50 K.
[00:25:50] - (): Dean Dahl: Yeah, yeah, it's totally true. So it'll be really interesting.
**** - (): And again, you know, you're, you're right. Not everybody's going to be racing this, uh, but it's got a great race ability at the front end of the sharp end. Like you say. So it's good. And I've got it all staggered out. So, um, people won't be arriving at the same time in case there's a sprint, but close enough that we'll all be in the event village after the event together.
**** - (): And people can celebrate racers coming in and adventurers coming in at the same time. So,
[00:26:21] - (): Craig Dalton: yeah, that was going to be my next question. Just sort of around the race village and what kind of post event atmosphere and shenanigans you have planned for riders.
[00:26:29] - (): Dean Dahl: Yeah. Yeah. Um, again, it's a fairly small event.
**** - (): We're only. Capping it at 200. So, and that's intentional because we need to be able to start small and be sustainable, make sure we do this right. Um, and then we'll start expanding it from there. Uh, but we've got a lot of great sponsors locally. Um, I have a lot of friends in the area and they all are small business owners and they're like, yeah, this is amazing.
**** - (): I want to be a part of this. So we've got an ice cream. This, uh, uh, boutique ice cream place just down the street from where we're going to be starting, uh, has a massive ice cream set up and they're handing you an ice cream cone, you know, and you cross the line. We've also got a local beer craft beer sponsor.
**** - (): That's going to be giving everybody a pint. If you're showing up to race, if you're you register, you got to celebrate with a pint from this brewery. And, uh, we've got a local cafe as well that actually a coffee roaster, that's going to be providing coffee at the event village. And we've got a local cafe that's actually going to be setting up a cafe in the middle of absolutely nowhere on our course at the top of one of the biggest climbs.
**** - (): So you're going to finish this climb and you're going to just feel like you totally. Destroyed yourself and you're going to turn the corner and there'll be tables there. They'll be doing pour overs, there's croissants and scones. They've got the tables, all that kind of stuff for you. So it'll be a fun, really kind of a neat surprise.
**** - (): So the event village is actually spread through the course, so to speak, uh, which will be really fun. We've also got a food truck, uh, I'm going to be having donors and falafels for everyone as well. So, you know, we're just trying to bring the hype and, you know, I'm talking to sponsors locally and just saying, Hey, kind of like what Andy said, actually, in, when you're talking with him, he was so interesting in that he was talking about how he just wants to be able to create a great thing and just let sponsors dictate how they want to bless the event.
**** - (): And, uh, I like that style and I think I'm kind of going for that style too, or. Somebody's got a food truck that serves falafels and doners and shawarma. I'm I'm down. Let's do that. Let's let's figure something out. Right.
[00:28:33] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. You
[00:28:34] - (): Dean Dahl: have a cafe. Let's set up a cafe in the middle of the route. That'd be amazing.
**** - (): So yeah, so that's kind of the event village feel.
[00:28:41] - (): Craig Dalton: That sounds awesome. When you think about the community, is this the type of community? And I often like think and talk about this. Like when you have a rural community and you stand up an event like this, yeah. All the businesses around town are like, bring it on, like no downside.
**** - (): This is awesome. Anything that will bring people to the community. Does Chilliwack have that vibe? Or is it still close enough to Vancouver where there's a little bit of like, actually, we don't want a lot of more people discovering us.
[00:29:09] - (): Dean Dahl: Yeah, there's a bit of that vibe and, uh, Chilliwack, again, like I said, it's a, it's an emerging community.
**** - (): It's probably, you know, close to a hundred thousand people. So it's actually not a small town. I mean, well, maybe that is a small town compared to some places. Um, but it, uh, yeah, it sits in an awkward, uh, Spot and it's discovering itself and there's some really great things happening and there's also a oh man A lot of people from the city are moving out here, you know It's the roads are a lot less quiet than they used to be our trails you know, I used to ride my horse on this trail all the time and now there's You know, people running all the time and cyclists all the time.
**** - (): So there's a bit of that thing. And also, um, again, Chilliwack is discovering itself in terms of how to be a community as it grows. And it's fascinating. Like, yeah, I love the idea of watching, um, cities grow and the urban planning idea fascinates me. And I'm seeing it on a local level in this city, which has got some really great, um, potential, uh, to see people really want to adopt this as their spot.
**** - (): At the same time trying to struggle with the people that have always lived here who are saying well we don't want it not in our town like we don't need another race we got two races already so there's both the yes let's get involved let's do this and also the well just do your thing and that's kind of it that's kind of a Vancouver thing too the west coast of Canada is very much like uh yeah you just do your thing and you know just leave me alone and just do it whatever.
**** - (): So
[00:30:41] - (): Craig Dalton: that brings up a question around land access, you know, any issues around getting on the land that you want to, that you're going to do the event on? Is it land that we can go out and ride today?
[00:30:53] - (): Dean Dahl: Yeah. Uh, well, that's a great question. And we are actually really excited because we are actually on the lands of the Stolo people, the traditional ancestral people, the Solo nation and the Swahili nation.
**** - (): And, uh, they have been really gracious in being allow us right down to being able to use some of the roads in their community that we can pass by on our route. Um, so we're very excited to be able to, um, kind of honor these communities and recognize them at the same time as being able to practically make use of the, the roads in their communities at the same time.
**** - (): So that's good beyond that too. Um, we're actually working with. Five different jurisdictions of ownership are stewardship of the various lands that we're going to be on everything from the city of Chilliwack to the regional districts to different communities that have different park zones and things.
**** - (): So the permitting process is extensive, and I was actually working on that a lot this morning just before talking to you. Um. It's exciting to do because you get to spread the word about a cool event and these people are like, yeah, that's amazing. Have you dotted this T by or dotted this I by the way, but what you're doing is great.
**** - (): Keep it going and fill out this form. As long as they
[00:32:07] - (): Craig Dalton: keep saying yes, it's
[00:32:10] - (): Dean Dahl: when the
[00:32:10] - (): Craig Dalton: fourth land manager says no and you're just like, wait, I have this great route that needs your section of land.
[00:32:17] - (): Dean Dahl: Yeah, that's totally true. But you get through that. You just got to take your time and, uh, you pay a little bit of money along the way for it, but you just do the due diligence, right?
**** - (): And you, you know, respect the process and then it's all good.
[00:32:33] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Well, I love what you're working on up there, Dean. It looks like a great event and from everything you've described, looks like an amazing piece of Canada that we should be exploring on our gravel bikes for sure. And I love, I love that you come with a different sports mindset as well.
**** - (): Obviously you've been around bikes your whole life, but having that skateboard influence, I always think it's interesting and refreshing when event organizers have. A totally different context for what an event can be. Like you can only imagine as a cyclist, like what a skate event might look like versus a cycling event.
**** - (): So bringing that unique mindset, I think is, is something new and great that you're bringing to the gravel community.
[00:33:16] - (): Dean Dahl: Yeah. I mean, it's all I know is like skate scene and my experience in cycling. So I'm just going to do what I do, but we'll find out. It's cool or not. And my team is, they're, they're not skaters, uh, but you know, they're like, Oh, that sounds cool.
**** - (): Let's do that. That'd be amazing. I've never seen that in a sailing race before, but whatever, it'll be great. I love
[00:33:37] - (): Craig Dalton: it. Yeah, for sure. Well, best of luck. We'll make sure everybody knows about your event on May 11th ticket. There's still some slots available, so we'll put a link to registration in the show notes for everybody.
[00:33:49] - (): Dean Dahl: Yeah, that'd be amazing. Craig, great to talk with you. Love your podcast. Keep it going. I know that's a lot of work and, uh, but keep at it because you're exploring something really interesting. And like I said before, the community around gravel cycling is so vibrant and it's growing and, uh, you know, you're a great voice to represent all kinds of things in this community.
**** - (): So thank you.
[00:34:13] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, I appreciate the kind words and I appreciate you sharing everything you did today. Thanks, Dean.
[00:34:17] - (): Dean Dahl: All right on.
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In this episode, Craig Dalton interviews Andrew L'Esperance, a professional cyclist from Canada. Andrew shares his journey in the world of cycling, starting from his early days racing with his brothers to becoming a professional athlete. He discusses the challenges and opportunities he has encountered along the way and how he has managed to make a career out of his passion for cycling. Andrew also talks about his transition to gravel racing and the different strategies and equipment choices involved in this discipline. He shares his experiences in races like Unbound and Sea Otter Classic and provides insights into the world of professional cycling.
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About the Guest(s):Andrew L'Esperance is a professional cyclist from Nova Scotia, Canada. He grew up in a family that spent a lot of time outdoors and started racing bikes at the age of 12. Andrew has been racing ever since, climbing the ladder and participating in various disciplines such as road cycling, cyclocross, and mountain biking. He holds a degree in mechanical engineering and has always had ambitions to be a full-time athlete. Andrew has raced for Norco Bicycles and is currently racing for Maxxis Factory Racing. He has also ventured into gravel racing and is excited about the opportunities it presents.
Episode Summary:In this episode, Craig Dalton interviews Andrew L'Esperance, a professional cyclist from Canada. Andrew shares his journey in the world of cycling, starting from his early days racing with his brothers to becoming a professional athlete. He discusses the challenges and opportunities he has encountered along the way and how he has managed to make a career out of his passion for cycling. Andrew also talks about his transition to gravel racing and the different strategies and equipment choices involved in this discipline. He shares his experiences in races like Unbound and Sea Otter Classic and provides insights into the world of professional cycling.
Key Takeaways: Andrew L'Esperance started racing bikes at a young age and has been racing ever since, participating in various disciplines such as road cycling, cyclocross, and mountain biking. He has always had ambitions to be a full-time athlete and has found ways to make it work alongside his engineering degree. Andrew's transition to gravel racing has opened up new opportunities and challenges, and he enjoys the adventure and technical aspects of this discipline. He emphasizes the importance of equipment choices in gravel racing, including tire selection and the use of suspension forks. Andrew's favorite gravel races include Unbound and Sea Otter Classic, where he enjoys the competitive atmosphere and the chance to showcase his skills. Notable Quotes: "I've always ridden a drop bar bike off-road. My first bikes were mountain bikes, and then I started doing cyclocross, which was my road bike, my winter bike, my cross bike. So, I've always had that mix of riding different disciplines on the same bike." - Andrew L'Esperance "I love the adventure of riding a bike, and it's a lot easier to find adventure on a gravel bike. In general, in the places that I spend the most time riding." - Andrew L'Esperance "If it's going to give you an advantage in the race, sometimes it will, sometimes it won't, and it needs to be at the right time in the race." - Andrew L'Esperance on using a suspension fork in gravel racing "Gravel racing is a combination of endurance, technical skill, and equipment choices. It's about finding the right balance and making the most of each race." - Andrew L'EsperanceTranscription:
[TRANSCRIPT]
[00:00:00] - (): Craig Dalton: Andrew, welcome to the show. Thanks. Thanks for having me, Craig. Yeah. I'm excited to have this conversation. I know you're, you're off to Europe tomorrow, so I appreciate you squeezing us in before you
[00:00:13] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: go. Yeah. Thanks for you making it happen too. I think you were just on traveling as well. So thanks for making it work with your
[00:00:20] - (): Craig Dalton: schedule.
**** - (): Yeah, absolutely. We always like to start off by learning a little bit more about you. Where, where'd you grow up and how'd you originally find the bike?
[00:00:28] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: Uh, I grew up on the east coast of Canada, uh, in the province of Nova Scotia, just outside the main city there, which is Halifax. Uh, and yeah, kind of grew up in a family that, you know, spent a lot of time outdoors and we rode bikes together as a family on vacations.
**** - (): And I'm the youngest of four boys. In the family, so I have three older brothers, and as you can imagine, like, I just looked up to my brothers big time, and especially my oldest brother, and he did a bike race once, so it was basically like, oh, I've gotta do a bike race, and yeah, I just kind of did my first race when I was 12, and ran, what's that, and, um, I've been racing ever since, kind of climbing the ladder, doing some education in there.
**** - (): Uh, but yeah, just been racing ever since and obviously like sprinkling some other sports in there early on.
[00:01:27] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, was Nova Scotia the type of area where youth cycling was easy to come by? I wouldn't say it
[00:01:35] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: was easy to come by. Um, I think, I think I was, like, fairly self motivated, like, to make, to make it happen, and had some good support from my parents to make it happen.
**** - (): Um, but there's definitely a tight knit community, and I think they certainly took me under their wing, for whatever reason. And, yeah, helped me, helped me Come up in the sport, but I guess the first race I did was a Tuesday night short track series. So from that perspective, certainly, um, that's like, that's a really great entry point for use.
**** - (): To the sport. Um, when you say, um, when you say kind of youth programming, I kind of think about like a bike club or that sort of thing for like specifically for youth, because we see a lot of that around now. And there was certainly nothing like that. But that kind of forced me to kind of ride with the older, older people, uh, that were definitely better than me and that kind of helped pull me along in the sport early on for sure.
[00:02:47] - (): Craig Dalton: Were you sort of racing consistently at that young age or did it take some time before you kind of really committed to a season?
[00:02:55] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: Yeah, I mean, I think when I did my first race, I was still doing other sports. Like, so I was definitely not like full on right away. Um, but it was definitely a slow process to get into it.
**** - (): Like the, it was more like regional racings first. I don't think I did any provincial level racing when I was 12. It was, it was, the racing I did was the short track series. It was like for, you know, eight or 10 weeks in the summer. And that was, that was the racing and it was, yeah. Like that was the season, uh, and then I just got more and more into it.
**** - (): And next year I did provincial, provincial level races. Then probably when I was 15, um, I went outside the province to race. And by that point, it was kind of like doing every kind of racing that I could, uh, coming from a smaller province. You know, there's not, there's not a ton of racing, but, um, so you kind of need to do all the things.
**** - (): So like do road, do cyclocross, do the mountain bike racing, do the group rides, all those things. Um, and yeah, that's how it, that's how I kind of started things off there.
[00:04:12] - (): Craig Dalton: And at what point did you start to see professional cycling as a career opportunity?
[00:04:19] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: Yeah, I don't, I don't know. To be honest, maybe, maybe I just have started to see it as a legitimate career opportunity in the last couple of years, you know, I, I have a degree in mechanical engineering.
**** - (): It was sort of, um, that was always kind of the way I was going to make, And I never really saw bike racing as a way to make money, but I loved it and I could make it work. Um, and I, I do think I did have ambitions to somehow figure it out to be a full time athlete, whether, you know, putting that professional label on it.
**** - (): Um, it's kind of, I feel like that's kind of different. Um, but yeah, I definitely wanted to be a full time athlete. It's a really, It's a really great lifestyle and just, I've just been chugging along trying to figure out how to make it work. And I would say in the last five years, um, Yeah, I figured that out and
[00:05:27] - (): Craig Dalton: were you figuring that out from a, you know, what's known as a privateer perspective or five years ago, would you enter a team program?
**** - (): Um,
[00:05:36] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: yeah, not definitely not as a privateer. Uh, so previous, so I'm currently racing for Max's factory racing, uh, and this will be my third year on the team. And prior to that, I raced for Norco bicycles in various capacities for about 10 years. Uh, kind of finishing my career with them on the Norco factory team.
**** - (): Those years, there was a period where there was, um, growth in the team and they went to another level. They stepped up to the world cup level and that meant reducing the team size. And that left me without sort of factory team support for a couple of years. Um, and at that time, um, you know, I wanted to keep racing.
**** - (): So it was sort of like, okay, how do I do this? How do I keep doing this? And I created, or myself and a teammate created our own team called forward racing, brought in some other sponsors and kept the support from Norco. And so in a sense, that was sort of privateering, but it was also like, okay, I'm putting, we're putting in all this work to organize this sponsorship.
**** - (): Hey, let's support another rider to, or, or a couple other riders, like bring them up with us. Um, so myself and my teammate brought on a younger athlete named Sean Fincham. And we supported him for two years.
[00:07:10] - (): Craig Dalton: Uh, that sounds like the racing we've been talking about has been on the mountain bike side. And since the listeners of this podcast may not necessarily be as familiar with that part of the sport, can you describe the type of mountain bike racing that you found yourself competing
[00:07:25] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: in?
**** - (): Yeah, totally. Yeah, so XCO mountain biking, it's, it's what's in the Olympics. It's kind of the short 90 minute race, uh, done on a short course, you know, three to five kilometers. You do, you know, five to seven laps. It's intense, there's technical features, that's the kind of racing I grew up on, and that was sort of, yeah, that, that was the racing that was available when I was coming up in the sport.
**** - (): And there's a pretty clear plan within Canada, you know, to do a national series, which is called the Canada Cup, and to perform at those races, and then you might get selected to do something with the national team, like an international race. You kind of just, uh, some opportunities open up that way. Um, and so, so that's, that's the kind of racing I grew up doing.
**** - (): That's the kind of racing I did for the majority of my career. And yeah, until I signed with Max's factory racing, uh, three years ago. That was my main thing doing, you know, I did it to the level that I was racing World Cups full time
[00:08:40] - (): Craig Dalton: Got it. And so was it
[00:08:43] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: yeah, I mean, it's so funny like You know, we've always, ever since I can remember, I've ridden, ridden a drop bar bike off road.
**** - (): I, my first, I, you know, my first bikes were mountain bikes. And then, you know, you're, you're doing mountain bike racing and you need to, you need to do some road riding. So that actually started for me with cyclocross. So my, my cyclocross bike was my road bike. It was my winter bike. It was my cross bike.
**** - (): And obviously you're riding that off road. Um, yeah, there's where I grew up in Nova Scotia. There's just plenty of bike paths, like gravel bike paths and gravel roads to ride. So, yeah, I would say it started with that early on. Um, and I guess more recently, um, Just like training, like for training opportunities, a gravel bike was just a good tool.
**** - (): Um, when I was training for XCO racing gravel bike, it just opens up the routes you can ride. You can ride on potentially safer routes. Uh, with less traffic and it's just a whole lot of fun. And I do, I like, I love the, the adventure of riding a bike and it, it's a lot easier to find adventure on a gravel bike, I feel, um, in general, in the places that I, you know, spend the most time running.
**** - (): Gotcha.
[00:10:21] - (): Craig Dalton: And was when you signed on with Maxis Factory Racing, was gravel racing an original part of the deal when they looked at you as an athlete?
[00:10:32] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: Um, it was definitely, um, you know, the team has always been focused on the mountain bike side of things. But, uh, the Uh, yeah, the, the way the market, or like the way the racing is in North America, it's, it's more like this off road racing.
**** - (): So it's not all mountain, a lot of the biggest races are no crawl races. So, yeah, I mean, that was definitely part of the conversation. Um, And it was certainly something I was very interested in. I actually, I think I've shared this on a podcast before, but, um, about three years prior to, uh, you know, stopping my Racing World Cups full time and signing with Maxis and doing the off road thing, um, I had an unbound, uh, like lottery, lottery registration Okay.
**** - (): That I got.
**** - (): I was never able to make it work with my schedule, and then the pandemic got mixed in there too. And I just never got to use it. Um, the year that I could have used it, um, was the year I signed with Maxis and we were going anyways. And Maxis was a sponsor of Unbound, so. You know, we had, we had entries that way, so I ended up giving it away, but, um, long story short, this, this kind of racing was on my radar for a while.
**** - (): Um, I think I was just before we started recording here, I was telling you. Um, you know, this adventure, I got, my interest got, uh, shifted towards some of this adventure racing back in 2017 when I did the Croc Trophy. It's an eight day mountain bike stage race across, um, tropical North Queensland in Australia.
**** - (): And, yeah, just, just this, uh, very different racing compared to XCO. It's an adventure, um, and I just, I just loved it. Uh, so ever since 2017, I've been, myself and my wife, Haley, have been trying to mix in these different race opportunities that are, that I would categorize as kind of adventure racing. So Stuff like, um, Epic Israel, we've done that a couple times, Swiss Epic, um, BC Bike Race, these sorts of things.
**** - (): And it's, I feel so lucky, I mean I'm still, I'm so fired up on what we're doing now, cause it's basically Those adventure races, but that's the full meal deal. Like that's what we're doing full time. Yeah.
[00:13:21] - (): Craig Dalton: Amazing. Now I think you've been part of the grand Prix for two years already, and you'll be in it again in 2024.
**** - (): Is that
[00:13:28] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: right? Yeah, exactly. You got it. How did
[00:13:31] - (): Craig Dalton: you manage to kind of make that schedule work and hit those mountain bike races that you like? Obviously the. The Grand Prix itself is not mountain bike heavy. There's a few occasions to ride your mountain bike, but not in the same way you had done in the past.
**** - (): I'm just curious, you know, obviously with the different skill sets required for the different types of racing, how you organized your year and your training. So you can do things from, you know, 90 minute XC races to 10 hour unbounds. Yeah,
[00:14:00] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: I don't, I honestly don't know how we did that first year. We went in like, okay, let's do all the racing and that's, that's what we did.
**** - (): We, that first year we still had, well, I say we, cause Haley and I have been on this journey together and we, we, we jumped from XCO racing to this more off road stuff together, but yeah, that year we did five world cups, uh, alongside. The Grand Prix alongside a smattering of other races. And I think it was a big year of learning, uh, which was amazing.
**** - (): It was, there was so much newness to it all, which was also like super refreshing. Um, I think I remember kind of reflecting on the season at the end of the year. And I like, I color coded all the races that I did based on which ones were new. And it was like, over half of them were brand new. And it was a large number of race days.
**** - (): It was like, it was above 35 racing days and there was some stage racing in there. So it's a, it's, it's a little different, but, um, just a lot of racing. And yeah, I don't, I don't really know how we did it. I can't, I can't pinpoint to like, there was, there was no, there was no major thought put into the scheduling.
**** - (): It was like just saying yes.
[00:15:30] - (): Craig Dalton: If we can be there, we'll be there and pedal
[00:15:33] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: totally, totally. And it was a ton of fun. Um, it ended up working, it ended up working out in, in general, um, in terms of like performance in the grand Prix. But again, I think the, the love, like the level of all, all this racing is, is increasing and I, I don't think that approach is.
**** - (): is going to work again. Um, I mean, yeah, so there's definitely some lessons from the first couple of years and, um, I'm not, I'm not prepared to like throw all my eggs in the You know, just focus on the Grand Prix races. There's so, there's so many great events out there. Um, and you know, I also want to, want to continue to grow as a mountain biker and do challenging mountain bike events that really suit my, um, kind of my natural skillset and some of my best, uh, some of my strengths as an athlete.
**** - (): So, so yeah, we're definitely mixing or I'm mixing a lot of different events in this season along the Grand Prix.
[00:16:46] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, interesting. It'll be great to follow your season. Yeah, it's complicated. I can see, you know, over the last three years, going to the third year of the Grand Prix here. There's definitely been this specialization.
**** - (): Obviously, there's a lot of prize money on the line for those who do well and get into the top whatever that gets paid out, but it is Increasingly clear that a lot of athletes are just laser focused on it. And I think it's still going to be interesting this year to see those athletes who are out there doing their own thing and racing some other crazy races, as well as popping into these races and see how the points end up shaking up throughout the year.
**** - (): It's, it's an interesting equation. It's fascinating to me, listening to the athletes, figure out how to focus their time and energy. Yeah, totally.
[00:17:32] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: And I mean, I think it's, it is, it is interesting because like, you know, the racing that we're doing, it's, uh, the Grand Prix is this, it is the series in North America right now.
**** - (): Yeah, so there's just so many other good events. And, you know, I don't think any athlete is just doing the Grand Prix. And it is interesting to see, to spread, um, To see how athletes kind of spread their time and, and where their interests lie and, and all that. So it is cool to follow that, follow each athlete, um, doing what they're doing alongside the, alongside the Grand Prix.
[00:18:11] - (): Craig Dalton: I also think it's interesting with the two drop races to just sort of see how the strategies play out. You hope that people aren't dropping them because they're sick or injured and they get an opportunity to strategically say, Hey, I'm not going to peak for that race because in the overall arc of my season, it just doesn't make any sense.
[00:18:29] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: Yeah, totally. Yeah, it is, it is a, I mean, the season, the season goes from April till end of October, and this is a long season. Uh, so, yeah, and you can't, you need to be very good for all these races, and it's not possible to be kind of peaked. For every single race. So yeah, yeah, definitely some strategy involved.
**** - (): And, um, I certainly learned a lot the first couple of years. Uh, things went pretty well the first year, not so well last year. And it kind of, uh, it definitely has me. Motivated to try to try to perform kind of do all the right things to perform Well all season long for that.
[00:19:14] - (): Craig Dalton: Are there specific races in the Grand Prix that you personally enjoy the most?
[00:19:20] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: Yeah, certainly like sea otter classic. It's definitely the most mountain bikey one. It's at sea level And I I really love the race course to be honest. It's just yes super fast fun riding Um It's not one where you can really, it's not like you can rip, rip this technical section and create a huge separation on, on the people you're truly racing against.
**** - (): Obviously there's some big gaps in skills between, um, perhaps those with a mountain bike background and those with a gravel background. But, um, it's, You can't, there's not a huge, huge opportunities for separations there, but, uh, yeah, it's, it's an awesome race and yeah, just the energy at that whole event with the festival alongside of it, it's, it's pretty cool.
**** - (): And it's kind of like the season kickoff too. So that's, that's exciting.
[00:20:19] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, for sure. And anything on the gravel bike side that you look forward to?
[00:20:23] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: Um, I mean, definitely Unbound, just like the, the scale of it. Uh, I would say that that one's high on the list. And, uh, yeah, Big Sugar's a cool one too. I mean, I, I do, I'm still, like, I feel like I'm a beginner at this gravel stuff, and I'm still, um, I don't really have it figured out yet, to be honest.
**** - (): And So all these races still feel like, like opportunities and they're very interesting to me. And, uh, yeah, so, um, yeah, I guess Unbound and, and Big Sugar are probably my favorite gravel races in the series.
[00:21:05] - (): Craig Dalton: With Unbound being the longest one on the calendar on the gravel bike, uh, side for the Grand Prix, how do you, how do you approach that as an athlete?
**** - (): I mean, obviously you train up to that distance. When you think about being competitive in an event like that, just kind of walk me through briefly, like the mindset of like, you know, are you following the early moves or are you conscious of Hey, this is a 200 mile day. And, you know, maybe I'm not the most in, I don't have the most endurance of everybody in the, in the Peloton.
**** - (): I'm just curious, like how you manage that to maximize the best result possible for you.
[00:21:42] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: Yeah, definitely. I mean, when I go into those races, I'm not, there's no, there's no pacing. It's going with the front of the race as long as you can. There's, there's no, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna try to make the front group. I'm gonna try to get on the podium.
**** - (): I'm not going to have a deliberate strategy to not follow so I can, you know, finish 20th. Like that's, I'd, I'd much rather go for it and blow up than, than not go for it. Um, that being said, I do, you know, we learned last year that there is definitely some in terms of taking care of equipment in certain, um, conditions like, you know, very rough conditions, muddy conditions, there, there does have to be some strategy surrounding how you ride that stuff.
**** - (): Um, so I'm definitely. taking that into Unbound this year, just that, that whole experience. Um,
[00:22:45] - (): Craig Dalton: and you caught up in any disastrous way in the mud this past year?
[00:22:49] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: Yeah, just, I lost my derailleur, um, very early on. Um, I just kind of snapped off in the mud and it was, uh, Was
[00:22:58] - (): Craig Dalton: that game over for you?
[00:23:00] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: Yes. I, yeah, I, I tried everything I could to try to, um, keep it going, but yeah, it was game over and it was just very, um, that, that was tough, I guess.
**** - (): Uh, I definitely learned from that experience because I had never dealt with that kind of mud before and it's really something you need to experience to fully understand. Um, And yeah, so, um, yeah, looking forward to going in there a little more prepared and having those experiences under my belt and yeah, hopefully a little bit of luck too.
**** - (): But you know, I think in chatting with my friend, Ian, who did quite well, he was, who's done in Boswell, who's done quite well at that race. His, his strategy was. Just kind of, um, sitting back and watching a little bit how, how those, the first section played out, and definitely a more conservative approach, but I was, I was like third wheel into that mud, riding on Tobin's wheel, um, I think when my derailleur came off, I was sitting on Russell or Keegan's wheel and just run, just run the race as best as I could and going for it.
**** - (): Yeah. Those conditions, you know, if my bike can make it through it, it's a huge advantage for me. Um, just cause that is, you know, some technical. Technical ability is a huge asset, just pedaling the bike through that stuff, but you need to have a bike that stays together, um, to take advantage of those, uh, that, that opportunity.
**** - (): Yeah, a hundred
[00:24:52] - (): Craig Dalton: percent. I'm, I'm one of those sort of people who started out mountain biking like yourself, and I love I love the technical elements of gravel racing and the harder technically the races are, the more fun I think they are. Totally. That's the, that's sort of where I hope the sport would go.
**** - (): And frankly, you know, as the Grand Prix got announced, like I've, I've always been hopeful for the mountain bikers to get more of an opportunity, not only in the mountain bike specific races, but in the gravel races to just kind of show that skillset.
[00:25:24] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm with you on this. I, I would really. I would really like to Yeah, maybe just see a little more texture in some of these gravel races I I really like what the bwr does pulling in some single track Uh, yeah, I did A couple years ago.
**** - (): I did It's in BC called BCBR Gravel and, you know, BCBR is a BC bike race. So it's the same promoters that do this, you know, um, seven day mountain bike stage race. So the gravel version of it was, was what you can expect from the organizers of a mountain bike stage race. And it was very gnarly. I kind of joked at the race.
**** - (): Uh, like I wrote a, I wrote a taper cast, the Fox taper cast fork. During that race and it was like, oh man, if you had a, if you had a truck full of those at the finish line of that race, you could have sold them all. No worries. It was like a huge advantage to have, uh, Uh, yeah, have suspension on the gravel bike.
[00:26:31] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. It's so interesting. Do you ever, you know, as someone who's obviously well adept with suspension and using it on your mountain bikes, how often do you consider it on your gravel
[00:26:41] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: bike? Yeah, it's, it's always a tough, tough decision. And it's like, I've, you know, if I'm not sure if you've ridden it, but riding a suspension fork on a gravel bike is.
**** - (): It's an amazing feeling and it's wild how much more capable the bike becomes. It's 100 percent so much more than what you think.
[00:27:06] - (): Craig Dalton: I've got one on my bike for Mount Tam here in Marin County, and I can't even explain how much more confidence inspiring it is going downhill and. It's kind of cheating for me because I've got a mountain bike background.
**** - (): So generally I ride harder downhill than most of my contemporaries, but putting that suspension fork on, it's just, it's almost unfair at times. Totally. I'm curious to kind of drill into that a little bit as a suspension owner. So what is that? Tell us more about that line for you. I mean, when we would consider it is the main, is the main downside in your mind, just the weight.
**** - (): And if it's a climbing race and you need to stay up at the front, you got to shed the weight and otherwise you'd use it.
[00:27:50] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: Yeah. So I think, uh, I, I reach for it quite often, uh, to be honest, I, my first year at Unbound, I wrote it. Uh, so that was two years ago and it was. It was a huge advantage in the rough stuff, but the thing is, um, that didn't, that kind of just kept me near the front of the group and out of trouble.
**** - (): It's not like it, it gave me a huge advantage in the race overall.
[00:28:23] - (): Craig Dalton: Do you feel like from a, does it, does fatigue come into play when you think about it? I mean, it's
[00:28:28] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: so hard to get a sense of that because You know, no, no matter what bike you ride, if you're riding, riding unbound for 10 hours, fatigue is going to be high.
**** - (): Um, I've not done like, I think that would be a fairly hard thing to test. Um, and I've not done like back to back testing on that, but it really does. The way I think about it is if, if it's going to give you an advantage in the race and some, sometimes it will, sometimes it won't, and it needs to be at the right time in the race.
**** - (): So like, so I did BWR Vancouver Island last year, and the first, in the first bit, there was, um, some single, some heavy duty single track and I just rode away from the whole race. Uh, And was two minutes off the front by like the bottom, you know, in the first hour of the race, but this isn't super helpful because it's a seven hour race and then I was off on my own for the next few hours.
**** - (): Um, so like from a tactical point of view, that wasn't great. Um, but the final descent on that course was one where having like the final descent, a few K from the finish. Having a suspension fork would have been an advantage. So it's sort of like, okay, do I carry this around for the whole race? It's definitely a little bit heavier, not as aerodynamic, but in those sections, it's like a laughable advantage.
**** - (): Yeah. Yeah.
[00:30:06] - (): Craig Dalton: I think that's, I mean, I think it goes with almost every part of a gravel bike. It seems like you just, you have to make these trade offs. And decide where is it going to benefit you like as a recreational racer, I consider comfort to be a big part of it, right? I got to get through these races to, to enjoy them, but comfort at the cost of, you know, an extra pound or so may come to bite me in the ass climbing 12, 000 feet in a day.
[00:30:35] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: Maybe. It depends on what your goals are. Like for me, I really need to think this through. But if I was riding my bike for, um, purely for fun and trying to enjoy and especially if I wasn't racing, like suspension fork on the gravel bike, for sure, as long as, as long as the terrain you ride and the way you ride kind of suits it, if you, if you go on to double track and single track, um, and you have access to that in your area and you enjoy that.
**** - (): It's like, yes, get yourself a gravel suspension fork. It's going to be great. You're going to have a huge smile on your face. It's going to be fun. Um, and you'll be able to drop your friends. No question.
[00:31:20] - (): Craig Dalton: I think you've been training this winter down in Santa Cruz, California. Is
[00:31:23] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: that right? Yeah, yeah, we've been, uh, yeah, we did, uh, well, uh, pass through Santa Cruz on, I did this, uh, Rob Britton and I did this ride down the, down the entire coast of California, um, and then spent a week here after that training, and then I've been here for the last couple weeks, so, yeah, uh, basing out of here for quite a bit, and, yeah, just, Yeah.
**** - (): Yeah. Yeah. Really enjoying the kind of road riding here. Amazing.
[00:31:54] - (): Craig Dalton: Um, before we go, I'm curious to just learn about your bike choices for the year. What, what brands are you riding on the mountain bike and the gravel bike? And what do you like?
[00:32:05] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: Uh, yeah, I mean, for, so I don't believe our mountain bike. Sponsor has been made public yet.
**** - (): So I'm going to stay quiet on that, but, um, yeah, we're on, uh, new drop bars bikes for this year and that's around time bikes. Which is, yeah, kind of, um, exciting new, new brand, uh, well, new to us brand, obviously it's a pretty storied, uh, brand that's been around for a while. Yeah,
[00:32:39] - (): Craig Dalton: we just had them on the podcast about a month ago, learning all about the new owner, the manufacturing processes for that bike.
**** - (): I think that the ADHX 45 looks like a rad bike to ride.
[00:32:53] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: Yeah. No, I listened to that episode. It was great. I, I, I really enjoy kind of hearing the background and the business dynamics of, of, of some of these companies in the industry and yeah, the bike looks really great. I've just seen one once, um, I was down in Bentonville at the end of the season and it looks really good.
**** - (): Uh, so I, I'm very excited to get on one and yeah, really push it. And, uh, yeah. Yeah, it's going to be fun.
[00:33:25] - (): Craig Dalton: Awesome. When do you, when do you think you'll first race on that bike?
[00:33:29] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: Yeah, we're, uh, first race will be BWR Utah. So yeah, once I got back from Spain after the stage race. Uh, probably spend some time on that, get it set up, get it dialed.
**** - (): And yeah, it'll be a, that'll be a great first one for it. And yeah, I can't wait. Um, it's gonna be good. And
[00:33:49] - (): Craig Dalton: since you're been on the Maxis squad for a few years, which, what are your favorite Maxis gravel tires?
[00:33:57] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: Well, the, the new, I mean, the tried and true Rambler, um, you really can't go wrong with that. If you know, you have to pick one tire to do it all, that's going to be it.
**** - (): It's, um, Yeah, just super predictable. Easy to ride. Casing's very good. There's options there, um, you know, for a super heavy duty casing or a, um, you know, a higher TPI casing that's going to be a little more supple. Um, so yeah, Rambler for sure, but the new favorite is definitely the Reaver. Uh, it was released last year.
**** - (): I expect that's going to be the go to, um, for the majority of the racing. And I haven't tried it in a 45 yet. Um, but yeah, really looking forward to that because I do think, um, yeah, just given the tire design, like a fairly kind of a file tread in the middle. I think it's going to scale up pretty good and feel.
**** - (): Um, still roll really well in that larger size, um, whereas sometimes when you scale up on a super hobby tire, um, yeah, yeah. Just the, the speed changes quite a bit with your mountain bike skillset. Sorry, just from the casing and the, and the knob design, I guess.
[00:35:14] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah. With your mountain bike skillset, do you feel like that file tread provides you enough kind of traction for most of the gravel races?
**** - (): Yeah, yeah,
[00:35:25] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: I feel like I can, I can run with less for sure just because the, it's, it's just like not a limiting factor for me. Um, I can run, I've, I've raced gravel races on the refuse, which is just a very tough casing, but it's a full, full slick with no shoulder knobs and you, you know, I, I can manage that.
**** - (): Um, you have to ride it a certain way. You can't, you can't push, you can't, you can't push it into the ground and expect that it's always going to hook up. Um, but it's, uh, yeah, it's a good tool for, for certain, for certain situations. And if you, I mean, with, with tire choices at the pointy end of things, you're always, um, you're always trying to choose the fastest one.
**** - (): Um, and, and. Ride it, basically ride it correctly, like manage the tire well. Um, so yeah, you're never, at least I'm not, I'm always kind of pushing the limits on what I can, what I can run for speed and performance.
[00:36:37] - (): Craig Dalton: And what do you think about inserts for gravel racing?
[00:36:40] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: Yeah, yeah, I've, uh, used inserts quite a bit.
**** - (): Um, typically on the Tannis, Tannis Armor inserts. And, yeah, if there, if it's rough and there's a puncture risk, it's, um, yeah, it's a, it's, it's a, I go for it, um, compared to, I mean, I think inserts, they, they kind of came from mountain bike, but they're actually far more applicable for gravel. Bikes just given the the low volume tire.
**** - (): Yeah, and how how close the rim Like the tires aren't that tall compared to a mountain bike tire So there is there's kind of very little space for the tire deflect before it before it hits the rim and yeah having that cushion there and Yeah, it makes a huge difference. And, um, yeah, tire pressure obviously like pretty important on the gravel bike.
**** - (): And, um, yeah, sometimes lower if you can manage it is, is a lot easier on the body faster. So many, so many little, uh, uh, so many things to think about all the time. And I'm, I feel like I I'm out of practice cause I, I haven't been racing for a few months. Um, so I'm definitely gonna have to brush up on my decision making skills cause the race season's coming and all this stuff really matters.
[00:38:09] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. A hundred percent. Would you consider Unbound one of those courses that warrants inserts?
[00:38:14] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: Yeah. One, one hundred percent. Both years I've raced it, I've, I've run inserts. It'll be interesting with the North route this year on tire choices and, uh, on suspension choice as well. Um, yeah. Hoping to get there early and kind of suss it out and, uh, and do some testing there because it is, you know, equipment choice there matters and, um.
**** - (): Yeah. North route. I hear it's a little rougher.
[00:38:41] - (): Craig Dalton: Interesting. I think that's a good place to end, Andrew. Thanks so much for the time. It was great to get to know you a little bit and excited to follow you throughout the season and maybe run into you at Sea Otter.
[00:38:52] - (): Andrew L'Esperance: Sounds good. Thanks very much for having me, Craig.
**** - (): And uh, yeah, I appreciate the time and yeah, see you at Sea Otter for sure.
-
In this episode, host Craig Dalton interviews professional cyclist Andy Lydic. They discuss Andy's journey in the world of cycling, from his early days in high school to his decision to pursue a career as a professional cyclist. Andy shares his experiences racing for amateur teams in Spain and his transition to gravel racing. He also talks about his participation in the UCI Gravel World Championships and his goals for the future. The conversation highlights the growing popularity of gravel racing and its potential as a pathway to professional cycling.
Episode brought to you by AG1.
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About the Guest(s):Andy Lydic is a professional cyclist from Boulder, Colorado. He began his cycling journey in high school, transitioning from track and cross country to mountain biking and road racing. Andy joined the Boulder Junior Cycling team and quickly progressed in the sport. He decided to pursue a career as a professional cyclist and moved to Europe to race for amateur teams in Spain. After facing challenges with team closures, Andy shifted his focus to gravel racing. In 2023, he participated in the UCI Gravel World Championships and had a standout performance as the unofficial under 23 world champion. Andy continues to pursue his passion for gravel racing and aims to make a mark in the professional cycling world.
Episode Summary:In this episode, host Craig Dalton interviews professional cyclist Andy Lydic. They discuss Andy's journey in the world of cycling, from his early days in high school to his decision to pursue a career as a professional cyclist. Andy shares his experiences racing for amateur teams in Spain and his transition to gravel racing. He also talks about his participation in the UCI Gravel World Championships and his goals for the future. The conversation highlights the growing popularity of gravel racing and its potential as a pathway to professional cycling.
Key Takeaways: Andy Lydic's passion for cycling began in high school when he transitioned from track and cross country to mountain biking and road racing. He joined the Boulder Junior Cycling team and received mentorship from experienced cyclists, which helped him progress in the sport. After facing challenges with team closures in Europe, Andy decided to focus on gravel racing as a pathway to professional cycling. Gravel racing offers a unique combination of physical and technical challenges, making it an exciting and competitive discipline. Andy's participation in the UCI Gravel World Championships showcased the potential of gravel racing and its ability to attract top-level riders. Notable Quotes: "I want to use gravel as my pathway to pro... I want to write the story of what is the future of gravel." - Andy Lydic "Gravel racing is a true test of a rider's strength, endurance, and technical skills." - Andy Lydic "The U.S. has limited opportunities for young American riders to race in Europe, and gravel racing can provide a unique pathway to professional cycling." - Andy Lydic Resources: BMC (Andy Lydic's bike sponsor) It Could Be Me (Andy Lydic's title sponsor) Maurten (Andy Lydic's nutrition sponsor) Northwave (Andy Lydic's shoe sponsor)Don't miss this engaging conversation with Andy Lydic as he shares his journey in the world of cycling, his experiences in gravel racing, and his aspirations for the future. Tune in to gain insights into the growing popularity of gravel racing and its potential as a pathway to professional cycling.
Automated Transcript (please excuse the typos):
[TRANSCRIPT]
[00:00:00] - (): Craig Dalton: Andy, welcome to the show.
[00:00:04] - (): Andy Lydic: Thanks so much for having me. I'm stoked to be here.
[00:00:07] - (): Craig Dalton: I'm excited to get into a little overview of your career and What's in store for you in 2024. I always love to start these conversations by just learning a little bit more about you. I mean, you've been involved in bike racing for a long time since your junior days, but why don't you just say, you know, where did you grow up and how did you originally get into cycling?
**** - (): And we can kind
[00:00:26] - (): Andy Lydic: of go from there. Yeah, totally. So I'm from Boulder, Colorado, grew up here in Boulder, Colorado, and got into cycling in high school, probably my junior year of high school. I used to run track and cross country, and I used to also be a downhill ski racer previous to that, and I was pretty burnt out on track and cross country as a high schooler, just didn't find it that fun.
**** - (): And a bunch of my friends were doing high school mountain biking. A couple people that I knew, but weren't really my friends at the time were doing road racing as well. And my dad was pretty into the cyclocross scene here in Boulder. We've got quite a few local events in the front range area. So he got super into that and there was sunshine hill climb my junior year.
**** - (): Sunshine's a big climb here in Boulder. It takes like 45 minutes or an hour or something like that. And he was like, yo dude, if you go right up sunshine during this hill climb faster than I do, I'll take you out for a burger and some ice cream. And I was like, yeah, totally. I want to go get a burger and ice cream.
**** - (): So I love those dad
[00:01:23] - (): Craig Dalton: incentives. I feel like I had one of those similar ones from my dad to run cross country one year. And it was like, that works for me. It doesn't have to be a big incentive. Just a little one works as a high schooler.
[00:01:34] - (): Andy Lydic: Yeah, just something. So from there, I did the Sunshine Hill climb. I actually thought I was wearing a kit for the first time.
**** - (): And I think I was wearing tennis shoes on my mom's road bike. And I was like, you know, it's kind of strange, you know, you're wearing tight clothes biking out in public. But then I thought about it and I was wearing short shorts running. So it's not all that different from there. I decided I wanted to do the high school mountain biking team.
**** - (): So I told the cross country coach that I was going to stop running cross country and go to the high school mountain biking team. And from there, I've had a bunch of my core friends who are still a bunch of friends. Now, some of them are really high level racers, mountain bike and road just across the country and across the world.
**** - (): So they got me into mountain biking for the first season. I was borrowing bikes from people from, I don't think of the five races in the Nike league, I use the same bike twice my first year, just because I was borrowing bikes from people. And from there, I progressed into, I joined the Boulder junior cycling team and had a pretty good time there.
**** - (): I did. Like three races of a cyclocross season, my senior year of high school. And then also did high school mountain biking again that summer following, I was like, yeah, I'm going to get into road too. I'd been training on the road a bit and done a couple of road races with the Boulder junior cycling team and decided from there, like.
**** - (): Yeah, let's see what I can do with this bike racing thing, but was still pretty focused on going to college. It was COVID when I chose where I went to school. So I ended up going to CU Boulder. I was debating between a couple schools in California and a couple schools other places in the country and mid COVID I was like, you know what?
**** - (): I'm just gonna start here at CU. See how I like it. It'll give me the chance to keep riding and see how much I like riding and from there my freshman year of college. My dream of being a professional cyclist kind of really took off. And from there on, I was like, that's what I'm going to do. I want to be a professional cyclist.
**** - (): I want to race on the road. And I want to see how high of a level I can get to at this store.
[00:03:28] - (): Craig Dalton: Interesting. So going back to those Boulder junior cycling days, is that the type of program that is, you know, giving you guidance and really trying to create elite level athletes? I think of sort of the NICA program as like, Great jumping off point, obviously a lot of infrastructure to bring people into the sport and create good vibes around mountain bike racing.
**** - (): Was Boulder Junior Cycling kind of a next level of that, which is a little bit more intentional to create elite level cyclists?
[00:03:57] - (): Andy Lydic: Yeah, I think it's a bit of a step up. It's not like what you would see with the old team that used to exist, Lux, or what you'd see with Hot Tubes or something like that. But there was definitely like a lot of really talented guys from Boulder or the front range area who went through the program, guys and girls who went through the program and have stepped up to pro road level racing and pro mountain bike level racing.
**** - (): You see a couple of those guys and girls are over racing in Europe now on professional teams. A couple are gravel privateers now. So I don't think the team's intention is to create elite athletes. But I think the Boulder community and some of the mentors like Joe Lewis was my first coach there and he was a pro for quite a long time and had a lot of really cool experiences that he was able to share along with us.
**** - (): And it provided the platform of inspiration so that riders like myself and riders like like Bjorn Reilly or Mattie Monroe or Riley Sheehan, all those guys came through Boulder Junior Cycling and now they're racing at the top level of the sport across the world. So it's a bit of the team and I think also just a bit of the Boulder community, pretty high achieving people here.
[00:05:03] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. I remember moving out to Boulder from the East Coast and immediately being knocked down a peg because there's got such a great scene and such great riding out there. You mentioned starting CU Boulder during COVID. Was the CU Boulder cycling program able to be active during that first year?
[00:05:24] - (): Andy Lydic: They weren't. I don't think or not at least that I was involved with because we started in 2020 fall and then 2021 spring there wasn't really road racing here in Colorado and at that point I was also racing with a club team, the cinch elite club team here in Colorado so I was just racing with them. I was a cat three and then upgraded to cat two my freshman year in college that spring.
**** - (): So I don't think the CU team did a whole lot that year, or at least I wasn't super involved with it if they did. And then the fall of my sophomore year before I ended up moving to Europe to start racing, I did collegiate mountain biking. I did like two races just because it was a way to keep me motivated and have fun and been doing mountain bike racing in high school.
**** - (): So I was like, I want to keep doing this. It's fun racing on the dirt. I like it.
[00:06:13] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, it sounds like that experience racing kind of with, with the cinch program and you're moving up through the categories at least said, Hey, I've got some, I've got some potential here taking that potential and then saying, I'm going to move to Europe is a little bit of a leap.
**** - (): So can you just talk through like what that looked like and did you just move and then try to figure it out or do you, is there a way that you contacted some programs over to Europe to help you at least have a focus point?
[00:06:43] - (): Andy Lydic: Yeah, I sophomore fall was sitting in my dorm room and I was like, I want to go move to Europe and be a professional cyclist.
**** - (): Like that's what I want to do. I don't want to go to school this spring. I want to be a pro cyclist. So I went on the databases of email contacts for all the teams in Spain, all the teams in France and all the teams in Italy. And I think I sent like 400 emails to every amateur team I could possibly get the contact to saying, Hey, what's up?
**** - (): I'm 19 years old. These are my power numbers, I'm looking to move to Europe, I want to start racing, what can I do? And I think of the three or four hundred emails that I sent, I got like 16 total responses, and of 16 total responses, maybe like five of them weren't immediate no's. And from the non immediate no's, I had like a couple people entertain the conversation.
**** - (): They're like, yeah, we might be looking for an American writer. I was like looking at France. I was looking at Italy. I was looking at Spain. I kind of knew I wanted to go to Spain because I speak a bit of Spanish just from high school. And so I was like, yeah, that might be easy. And then I connected with an agent who works with a bunch of the amateur teams in Spain.
**** - (): And he got me placed on a team and he was like, yeah, man, like you fly out in February and this team's got housing for you. They'll take you to a bunch of really high level Spanish cup races and stage races across Spain. Like all you got to do is just be ready come February. And it was kind of, it was pretty uncomfortable at first cause I'm sending all these emails to a bunch of people.
**** - (): I have no idea who they are, no idea what language they speak. And I'm just the silly American sending English emails saying, what's up? Here's my power file. I don't actually know how relatively good it is, but I'd really like to come race in Europe for you guys. Because that's the dream, isn't it? Like go racing for a European team.
**** - (): So then from there, I ended up moving to Northern Spain and racing for an amateur team. And unfortunately that amateur team folded in March, which would be kind of set a precedent for how my amateur racing experience in Spain went on. So I raced with that team from. End of January, beginning of February, until the end of March, they folded.
**** - (): I moved from northern Spain to Girona. Started racing with another team and got a really cool experience to go race in Denmark at some UCI races, and also do some other cool Spanish races with that team. And then they folded in July, sitting in Girona, just not sure what to do. And that's kind of what led to the whole gravel idea.
[00:09:16] - (): Craig Dalton: And was that July, 2022, just to try to timestamp it? Yeah, July, 2022. Okay. So you're sitting in, you know, the, the road aspirations are having some, some, uh, detours and some challenges along the way. You're sitting in Girona in July. Um, yeah, talk us through, how did you spend your time the rest of that year?
**** - (): Yeah. So.
[00:09:38] - (): Andy Lydic: In the midst of the teams falling apart, I'd moved from the team house in Northern Spain to a friend's apartment in Girona. I was connected with a couple of different people who lived in Girona or spent time there just through Boulder, the Boulder community. A bunch of pro cyclists come and spend time here in Toronto Altitude while they're in the U.
**** - (): S. And then one of my friends, Sean, was at CU Boulder and he had an apartment in Girona. So when this team folded, I was like, Hey man, can I come crash with you for a couple of weeks? And in that time, I was just training, hanging out in Toronto, get to meet a whole bunch of pro cyclists, which is really cool.
**** - (): And at that time you're enamored because you're like, wow, like everybody here is a pro cyclist. Everybody here knows what's going on. And you found out after a couple months that all factor wears off and you're like, wow, like I'm, I'm just living here. This is pretty sweet. So from that time after the team folded, I came back.
**** - (): Or after the second team folded in July, I came back to the US and I knew I had a prospect with a team that was hopefully gonna be starting in the fall of 2022 and gonna be officially a UCI team in the spring of 2023. And so I had that idea in my back pocket, came back to the US when I was back in Boulder for, I think it was like a month and a half total of 2022.
**** - (): I raced Steamboat Gravel. I did a pretty decent ride there and that was my second time doing Steamboat Gravel and at that point I was convinced I was racing with this team that was going to be a Conti team. I had a good ride there, went back over to Europe, moved into another apartment in Toronto where I was living with some of the guys that were going to be on that team.
**** - (): And we're supposed to be going to university in Girona, and the whole premise of the team was like, you're part of the team, you're going to university, and you got to learn how to become a professional athlete and somebody off the bike as well, which is super cool idea, super cool concept, and I think there's definitely space for a program like that in the sport.
**** - (): This one just. Didn't end up working out. So they then fell apart in the fall. And while that was all happening, we were, me and the other guys who were supposed to be routing for the team were kind of like, okay, well we're gonna have to figure out what's next. And some of these guys were like, oh, just gonna go back to the us.
**** - (): Other guys were holding on seeing if they could race with other Spanish teams. Spanish amateur teams. 'cause we were all in Spain already. So it just makes sense too. Yeah. And I was like, you know what? I've done gravel a couple times. I've done Steamboat gravel twice, and I did a local race here in Colorado.
**** - (): That's pretty fun. And those races are really hard. So I want to see, you know, there's privateers popping up in the U S and there's a booming scene in the U S and there's a couple of races in Europe. What can I do to make, make that an actual thing? So then in the fall of 2022, I got a pretty good result at one of the UCI qualifiers and was able to go to the first ever UCI gravel world championships in Italy.
**** - (): And that was a super cool experience because, you know, it was my first ever world championships, my first time ever seeing a bike race at that high of a level. And I was able to ride for the elite team because there hadn't been a whole lot of people who were super interested. Everyone, all the American riders were like, Oh, this is a test event.
**** - (): We're going to see where this goes. And I had qualified and I was like, I want to see if I can race for the elite team. So sent some emails back and forth with you and say, cycling, they made that a pretty easy process, but it wasn't really team oriented that year. So we all just showed up, got our own accommodations, our own hotels.
**** - (): I traveled with some of the friends I was living with in Toronto and yeah, just had a blast. Like, yeah. What an amazing experience. That whole trip. That race was super cool. And it was my first time getting to race against guys that were that high of a level you got to race against. Yeah. Like Matthew Vanderpool and wow.
**** - (): Then our, and Greg Van Avermaet were all there. And then I'm at the back of the field. I didn't know how sick I was, but I had COVID it ended up and I was super sick, ended up DNFing the race. But I look back at that experience and I was like, that was. One of the coolest races I've ever done like standing at the start line, looking at my superheroes.
**** - (): That's
[00:13:43] - (): Craig Dalton: pretty sweet. Yeah, it sounds amazing. So it sounds like, you know, you had, it's the end of the season. I think October 2022 would be the timeframe of that UCI world gravel championships. So then you're looking at 2023. Your road program has dissolved at that point. What were your plans for 2023?
[00:14:05] - (): Andy Lydic: Uh, I think it was officially December 15th or December 12th or something like that, that we were told the road program wasn't going to go on, wasn't going to exist.
**** - (): So then we were all kind of scrambling and I was, the UCF just announced they're going to do this European gravel series. And I was just kind of stubborn, told my parents multiple times, I was calling them every day, like, I don't know what I'm going to do. And like, well, like you can talk to other teams, start racing for amateur teams again.
**** - (): And I was like, no, I'm going to another team that's going to hold again. Like. That's just not something I wanted to keep doing because it while the racing is really cool The life off the bike when you're racing for these amateur teams is it's pretty tough and it can be really isolating and lonely Just you know, you're sitting in a team house Don't have a whole lot of access to a social life a social experience and I knew I was having a really good time in Girona, so I was like I'm gonna stay here in Girona and chase these gravel races So from that point, I was like, okay, well to race gravel, I have to have a bike to do it and I have to have sponsors to support me and I have to have a mission and a vision for what I'm going to do.
**** - (): And at that point, I had just started working with a new coach and my new coach at that point was like, yeah, man, like I think there's definitely an opportunity to get to a really high level if you're racing gravel. It's the first time there's like a full UCI series, but. Check it out. Let's see, let's see where you can go.
**** - (): Let's see what you can do from it. So I had a lot of really good support from my coach. I had good support from my parents. Um, the first people I started working with were BMC, who I just met in Toronto from just being in Toronto. It's, it's such a funny, small place because. So many people in the bike industry and the professional racing industry live there.
**** - (): So being there and that one of the guys who works in marketing, I was able to get a deal with BMC to ride their bikes for the 2023 season. Just having that kind of gave me the confidence that, you know, I'm worth something. I'm able to go out and build my own program and build my own sponsors. And I've been learning how to make sponsor decks from my friends, from my parents.
**** - (): I've gotten really good mentorship and how to put together. Like a pitch to a sponsor and say, Hey, this is who I am. This is my mission. This is how I think I can add value. This is what I want to do. And this is who I want to be. Will you help me tell that story? And from there, then I started working with on a roadway safety organization from here in Boulder, who was my title sponsor for last year.
**** - (): They're called, it could be me. And they work on. Improving the relationship between roadway users, cyclists, runners, and drivers, and improving safety protocols, local legislation, and stuff like that. And I had those two in my pocket, and they were my biggest supporters through last year, and then I added a couple other sponsors to the line and was able to put together a season that, at first, I was really, really nervous about and really hesitant about.
**** - (): And now, I look back on it with a lot of pride, being like, wow, like, It was December 20th, and I had no idea what I was doing. And then by the end of January, I had my first sponsor. And by the end of February, I had two more sponsors. And then the beginning of March, I actually went and raced with an amateur team, some UCI road races in Greece.
**** - (): And then flew back to Girona from there, and here the gravel season is. Yeah.
[00:17:27] - (): Craig Dalton: Amazing. I mean, kudos to you for pulling that together after such a tumultuous year. I know how tough it can be for American riders living abroad and especially when you're the team you're trying to ride for, in this case, multiple teams folds right underneath you and you're sort of left with, you know, are the gods telling me something?
**** - (): Should I be quitting the sport? Is there no future? So yeah, huge kudos for kind of pushing through that. I'm curious about, you know, awesome that in 2023, you kind of, you know, built this plan and you got some sponsors together. And I know you're going to be pursuing gravel pretty hardcore in 2024 and we'll get into it.
**** - (): Is your mindset that You know, there will be multiple pathways for you in the future. Like there's still this idea that you could go race professionally on the road.
[00:18:14] - (): Andy Lydic: Yeah, I think that's the big story that I want to tell right now. I think right now gravel is a lot of guys exiting the world tour exiting pro teams, whether it's for mountain biking or cyclocross or other pro road teams.
**** - (): And they use it as like a stepping stone out of their careers that gives. gravel a lot of validity in the fact that there's a lot of really high level, really talented riders that are doing these races. Like I'm getting to race against Val Verde and I'm getting to race against, um, riders on plenty of world tour teams from Israel to, uh, Alpes and Phoenix.
**** - (): Like all these pro world tour teams are sending riders to these gravel races as one off expose. And then you see that at the world champs this year. And so the whole story now that I want to tell, and I knew this since last year as well, like I want to use gravel as my pathway to pro, but now that's kind of the big story I'm trying to push.
**** - (): And I've been using this hashtag future of gravel that I've kind of coined and I've got a personal email address, Andy at future of gravel. com. So I'm trying to write the story of what is the future of gravel. And what I believe that to be is because the racing is at such a high level, you get. A really high level physical performance out of a gravel race.
**** - (): You know, you're racing for three, four, five, six, seven hours full gas. Like it's a spring classic, but you're also on tricky technical terrain where the requirements, not just that you're a strong bike rider, but that you're. A capable bike rider as well that you're technically skilled and technically talented.
**** - (): And I think there's definitely I don't know of anyone who's used gravel to get into a professional cycling organization yet, but I definitely think there's room for it. And if the directors of pro road teams are the directors of pro mountain bike teams. Are taking a look at what is really required to win these races.
**** - (): They'll see the power numbers required to do these races is equal to and or greater than that of some of these really high level road races, as well as the fact that. You're getting a really good router if you pull a gravel rider out of the gravel along the road.
[00:20:21] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, I think it's a super interesting discussion, Andy.
**** - (): I think, you know, for, for listeners who maybe aren't familiar with the road scene, there used to be this tried and true pathway that involved a lot of development programs. And then maybe you get on the development team of a big pro tour team. And then maybe in your mid to late twenties, you were given a shot on the elite level team.
**** - (): And the last number of years, obviously on the roadside, we've seen a lot of young athletes just kind of come out of nowhere, whether it's a Pogacar or Tom Pickock, all these riders who they clearly didn't come out of nowhere, but they didn't go through that traditional pathway. So I do think it's fascinating for you to kind of hold up your hand and say, like, I'm going to I'm going to go all in on this gravel in a world where data files can be readily shared with coaches and would be agents and teams.
**** - (): They're going to see the amount of power that you can put out there. And to your point, the technical nature of a lot of these gravel races is going to showcase, yeah, you may not be racing, uh, you know, in a one day classic, but you're. On varied terrain with various technical challenges in a big group and a lot of undulation, a lot of technicality, clearly it's showing your professionalism as a, a by Candler.
[00:21:37] - (): Andy Lydic: Yeah, totally. And I think also as an American writer, especially it's, it's incredibly valuable opportunity right now because the U S only really has two development teams, two under 23 development teams for young American guys to get the chance to go over race in Europe. And. You know, as cool as it is to race crits, I'm A, not built to race crits and B, that's not the kind of racing I really want to do.
**** - (): And that's really the only professional level of racing that you can do in the U. S. The U. S. is so crit centric that these development teams, which only have a certain number of spots for riders, can only send so many people over to Europe. So, You know, as an American rider, the pathways to getting too professional in Europe, which is where, you know, the money in the sport is the visibility and the sport is the fame and the sport is.
**** - (): The pathway to that is pretty limited just because, you know, each team has 10, 12, 15 riders, and there's only two of them. There's one that's purely American and one that's got four or five American riders, but that's it. So I think having gravel as an opportunity to progress to professional could be a really unique, a really unique pathway that won't end up being that unheard of in the future.
**** - (): I think if one rider can do it, I'll set a precedent. And then once the precedent's set. You'll see guys who went from high school mountain biking to gravel racing to pro teams more and more because the level of riders in America is really incredible. There's just not a whole lot of road races and there's not a whole lot of opportunity for those riders to get to the European road races where there is the opportunity.
**** - (): Yeah,
[00:23:15] - (): Craig Dalton: yeah, yeah. That's super exciting. Continuing on your 2023 campaign, you got selected for the United States World Championship team once again. So you got to attend your. Second world championships, you mentioned in that first one, which I recall, there wasn't a lot of team camaraderie, um, or alignment with the people participating, but it sounds like from talking to a few of the, of the other athletes in 2023, there was much more of an alignment.
**** - (): So can you talk about what it was like racing with that crew and how the day unfolded for you?
[00:23:48] - (): Andy Lydic: Yeah, it was a super cool experience having USA Cycling step up and say we want to go to this race and we know we have riders who can perform really highly in this race. So the US National Championships for gravel was an auto qualifier for the top three positions at that race to get to be on the Elite World Championships team.
**** - (): And then everything else was a petition process and going into the petition process, I knew that I had raced more of the UCI gravel races than any other American had. So I thought I had a leg up there, but it ended up being a pretty tough process. And I think it was a tough selection process from USA cycling, because there was definitely a bunch of really deserving guys who applied to be on that elite team and who wanted to go to the world championships that applied for it, but didn't get selected because you know, the team only gets a certain amount of slots.
**** - (): And so it was definitely. Definitely fortunate that I was able to get that spot on the elite team again. I think, I think I had earned it just because I had done so many of the UCI races and I had gotten pretty good results at some of them. So from there, the USA team put together an email list and we're all on the same page of Okay, we're going to this race and we want the USA to show up and show up.
**** - (): And we knew we had Keegan. He's one of the most talented and one of the strongest riders in the world, just bar none. So we all showed up and USA Cycling had organized a hotel, so a bunch of the riders stayed at the hotel and, you know, they had food and everything for us. We had soigneurs, we had mechanics, and they did a really good job just organizing, putting together.
**** - (): Look, we want to perform. This is what it takes to perform. So it was almost like being in a professional team for a week because, you know, staying at the hotel with the guys on the team, that was super inspiring getting to hang out with guys you've raced against, but don't really know was super fun. And then going into the race, we had a plan to ride for Keegan, which everybody was on board with.
**** - (): Cause everyone's like, you know, Keegan can podium or if Keegan can win, that means a lot more than. A whole bunch of us getting 30th place. So yeah, it didn't end up working out incredibly well to ride for him. Just because in gravel, I think the nature of the sport is, you know, it is more of an individual race.
**** - (): It's more of an individual sport, but we went into it all knowing, like, we're going to try and get our best rider as high up as possible. And that result, Deacon had a really great ride. He finished fifth on the day. And then the other American boys had a really good ride and I had a ride. I'm super proud of.
**** - (): I call myself the unofficial under 23 world champion in gravel because I was the first under 23 rider in the elite field to cross the line. So while it's not something UCI gives a Jersey for yet, uh, I'm hoping they're going to give an under 23 world champs Jersey next year, I'll still be eligible for that, but I had, I had the ride of my life too.
**** - (): There was a point in the race where I'm riding next to. Wout van Aert and Matej Mohoric, and I stick both my elbows out to see if I could touch both of them at the same time and just because it was such a surreal experience that I was riding elbow to elbow with Matej Aert, I was like, this is crazy. I had a really good ride there that I was super proud of.
**** - (): And I think the course designers did an awesome job of making a course that actually really was a feeling of a gravel race course. Like we have hard gravel climbs, hard farm roads. There was flats, there was climbs. There was two river crossings in the race. Like, it definitely wasn't just a one day classic disguised as a world championship.
**** - (): It was a true gravel race, and I think it spoke a lot to the riders and gave a lot of validity to the sport beyond the fact that Some of the world's best riders were racing
[00:27:26] - (): Craig Dalton: it. Yeah, I agree. I think, you know, they continue to improve the format. Obviously, they're melding what we think of gravel in the United States with what Europeans think of gravel and UCI has their own perspective on how long events should be And what they should look and feel like, but clearly like in 2023, it did capture the attention of both male and female elite level gravel racers in the United States.
**** - (): And there was this dramatic shift in desire to actually go attend the worlds, which I, for one, I hope continues on. I do think it's important for us to have enthusiasm for the world championships. Cause I want nothing more than to have the rainbow stripes on an American at some point in the gravel
[00:28:09] - (): Andy Lydic: discipline.
**** - (): Yeah, totally. And I think, you know, to speak to the validity of the race in the Europeans mind, like I think there was 50 plus pros in the race of including pro Conti and world tour riders. And then you add in continental riders and that's another 30 And then you have pro mountain bikers and pro cyclocross racers on top teams in the world.
**** - (): Like the field was. Completely stacked. And it was really cool to see all these super high level riders there, as well as the U S putting in a really good result. Like I know Keegan was hoping to win it and I really believe he was capable of it, but you know, it's a race races don't always play out how you expect.
**** - (): And I think it won't be too far in the future when we see an American wearing. I
[00:28:57] - (): Craig Dalton: love it. 2024.
[00:29:02] - (): Andy Lydic: Yeah. So I started the race season two weeks ago at one of the, at the Low Gap Grasshopper race in Northern California. Had a pretty fun ride there. It was for being a, one of the smaller season opener races.
**** - (): There was a pretty strong field. We had Chris Blevins and Pete Stetna. Uh, Brent Wurtz and John, no, not him, but a bunch of really high level riders, super cool. So started the season there, got 7th place after a silly little crash, 4k from the line, but then Looking forwards in two weeks, I'm going to fly over to Greece and start my racing season in Greece, actually racing on the road.
**** - (): So I'll do a stage race in a one day in Rhodes, Greece. And then from there, I start with the UCI Gravel World Series race. So I'll be hitting, I think, six races in Europe over a seven week period. I'll do a UCI gravel race in Austria, a three day gravel stage race in Spain. A one day UCI gravel race in southern Spain and then up to Netherlands for a one day back to Spain for Traco, which is one of the biggest gravel races in the world now, but it's, I'd compare it to like, it is the, it's the unbound of Europe and then I'll finish the season off in Scotland at the UCI gravel race there.
[00:30:22] - (): Craig Dalton: Amazing. And then will you be dipping your toe back in the United States throughout the season? Or are you mainly focused on the UCI gravel events internationally?
[00:30:31] - (): Andy Lydic: Yeah, after that race block, I'll come back to the U. S. in mid May and kind of refocus as the American season gets going. I think the American gravel season.
**** - (): Gets going slowly. And then through the summer, it picks up quite a bit. So I won't be doing some of the big American stuff. I won't be doing Unbound, which I'm pretty happy to not be doing, but then I'll do Crusher and the Tusher. I'll do Steamboat. I'll do a couple of marathon mountain bike races. I'm hoping to go to.
**** - (): Marathon mountain bike, national champs. I think that'd be a super fun experience. And then some local races here in Colorado and then the rest of the lifetime Grand Prix races after unbound.
[00:31:11] - (): Craig Dalton: Okay. Yeah. It's interesting to me, you know, I remember sort of historically speaking, they would often try to keep younger riders away from the super massive distance races, like an unbound 200.
**** - (): And that's what was curious, you know, in the UCI vision of what gravel distances should be, they're not, they're not going 200 miles. They don't want it to be sort of an ultra endurance fest. They're, they're looking for it to be more active racing. How do you feel about, like, it sounds like. Not doing a 200 mile gravel race sits okay with you for this next season.
**** - (): But do you think about it like that? Do you feel like 200 miles is too much for you as a younger professional?
[00:31:53] - (): Andy Lydic: I think it's hard as such a young guy to compete with the likes of Keegan or the likes of the other world tour pros coming from Europe to the U S to do onbound because These guys have lifetime miles, which gives them a level of durability that it's really hard to have as a young rider.
**** - (): And so beyond the fact that it's just a long day in the saddle, I think it's hard for young riders to really perform there and you know, it's well doing as a career changing result. But that said. I really like the UCI format of the shorter races. I like racing for four hours. I like the four hours to be really hard.
**** - (): I like it to be really tactical and it feels like a road race that's more technical because you've got the gravel and you've got the, you know, whether it's a tricky descent or a river crossing or something like that. It's still a hard gravel race, but you're not out there for seven or eight or 10 hours.
**** - (): Yeah, like you would find in some of the longer American races. So it's nice. It's nice to get the speed from the European races and hopefully I can get the speed from the shorter races and then take it into the endurance that the longer American races later in the season will
[00:33:02] - (): Craig Dalton: require. Yeah, I think it's fascinating.
**** - (): I mean, look, there's, my opinion is there's room for all these types of events on the calendar. But it is interesting. And after talking to the UCI about like their perspective on the format, I have to acknowledge that like the dynamic racing element of a four to five hour race is just higher than a, a 10
[00:33:23] - (): Andy Lydic: hour race.
**** - (): Yeah, totally. And it's not, not that the racing in the U S is like not tactical because I think it's completely tactical, but it's just a different way. Whereas, you know, if the race, if you know, the race is 130 K or it's only going to be a four and a half hour race on the gravel guys are going to take much bigger poles, have much bigger attacks and yeah, it's going to play out more like a race that you'd want to watch on TV.
**** - (): Whereas, I didn't really think it'd be super interesting to follow unbound for all 200 miles of it, just because, you know, things happen a lot slower because it's a much longer race. Riders have to think a lot more about conserving. Riders have to think a lot more about whether it's their fuel strategy, their nutrition strategy.
**** - (): I think, you know, that's still equally important in the shorter races. How good your pit crew is doesn't determine your result in a UCI race, because you don't have a, that's not a thing that doesn't exist. It's you go out there, you race full gas for four hours, and then when you're done The race is over and, you know, some guys are wearing hydro packs.
**** - (): Some guys are not, but it's not so much a war of attrition as much as it is like a proper race. Yeah.
[00:34:32] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. Um, how are you supporting your 2024 campaign? Do you have a set of sponsors that are carrying over from 23?
[00:34:42] - (): Andy Lydic: Yeah. So I'm working with quite a few of my sponsors from 2023 continuing into next year.
**** - (): And I've added a couple other sponsors as well. I think this year has been definitely tricky to get sponsors and to work with sponsors because it's so such a difficult bike market right now. You know, I've heard all across the industry, like, Oh, 2023 was a really tough year and that really impacts marketing budgets.
**** - (): And marketing budgets is where, you know, privateers and writers like me get the finances to do the season. So it's actually not a complete process for me right now, figuring out how I'm going to pay for the entire season and pay for my living and everything. That's an ongoing process. And I think looking outside of the industry is something I've been doing recently as to how can I get some money and how can I share my story and how can I provide value to brands inside or outside of the industry?
**** - (): While it's this late. The other hard thing for me was, you know, my best result, the unofficial under 23 world champion wasn't until October when a lot of people have already signed their contracts for next year. So my best results did come late. Moving into next year, I anticipate I'm continuing to work with BMC.
**** - (): I'm continuing to work with It Could Be Me. I'm now working with Morton as a nutrition sponsor, which is really exciting and that's honestly a grail sponsor to me because I've been using their products. Been buying them for two years now and it's really exciting to get to work with the brand now. And I work with Northwave for shoes and Getting helmets from them.
**** - (): So it's really cool that the product support I'm getting is really strong and fairly well covered when it comes to product, but definitely still trying to tie up some ends when it comes to financing the whole season. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:36:19] - (): Craig Dalton: Got it. Well, I love that you're forging your own way and you know, you've got a unique racing calendar that should appeal to some sponsors and wish you best of luck and certainly hope you're wearing the stars and stripes Jersey for us in the world championships again,
[00:36:35] - (): Andy Lydic: in 2024.
**** - (): Yeah, that's the goal. I'd love to go back and double love it if the UCI offers up a jersey for the under 23. And even if they don't, I'm going to go and see how good I can do in that elite race. So that's the goal.
[00:36:49] - (): Craig Dalton: Amazing. Thanks for the time today, Andy. Great to get to know you.
[00:36:53] - (): Andy Lydic: Yeah. Thanks so much, Craig.
**** - (): Have a good one. -
Andy Chasteen, co-director of the Rule of Three gravel event in Bentonville, Arkansas, joins host Craig Dalton to discuss the vibrant gravel cycling community in Northwest Arkansas. They delve into the importance of connectivity and safe infrastructure for cyclists, the origins of the Rule of Three event, and the unique experience it offers with a combination of pavement, gravel, and singletrack. Andy also shares his perspective on event organization and the value of creating a memorable and enjoyable experience for participants. Don't miss this engaging conversation about the growth and excitement surrounding gravel cycling in Bentonville.
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About the Guest(s):Andy Chasteen is an avid cyclist and the co-founder of Rule of Three, a unique gravel cycling event held in Bentonville, Arkansas. He has a background in rock climbing and ultra marathoning, which led him to discover his passion for cycling. Andy is also a consultant in the outdoor industry and has worked with brands like Allied Cycle Works. He is dedicated to creating a vibrant cycling community in Northwest Arkansas and promoting the gravel riding experience.
Episode Summary:In this episode, Craig Dalton interviews Andy Chasteen, co-founder of Rule of Three, about the vibrant gravel cycling community in Northwest Arkansas and the unique gravel event they organize. They discuss the growth of Bentonville as a cycling destination, the importance of connectivity and safe infrastructure, and the origins of Rule of Three. Andy shares his journey from rock climbing to cycling and his passion for creating events that offer a challenging yet enjoyable experience for participants. He also emphasizes the value of different types of gravel events and the need for inclusivity in the cycling community.
Key Takeaways: Bentonville, Arkansas, has become a thriving cycling destination with a strong focus on connectivity and safe infrastructure. Rule of Three is a gravel cycling event that combines pavement, gravel, and single track sections to create a challenging and engaging experience. The event aims to provide a unique and fun atmosphere for participants, with a focus on community building and inclusivity. Andy Chasteen believes that gravel cycling offers a more accessible and enjoyable experience for riders of all skill levels. Rule of Three is committed to delivering a high-quality event and prioritizes participant experience over profit. Notable Quotes: "We're building gravel connectors that are not used by cars. They're just for cyclists to get from the center of Bentonville out into these rural areas." - Andy Chasteen "Gravel riding resonated with my culture and personality. It felt like home." - Andy Chasteen "Our goal is to put on the best event possible for the people that show up." - Andy ChasteenAutomated Transcription. Please excuse the typos:
[TRANSCRIPT]
[00:00:00] - (): Craig Dalton: Andy welcome to the show.
[00:00:03] - (): Andy Chasteen: Thank you. It's an honor to be here. I've been listening to you for a long time.
[00:00:08] - (): Craig Dalton: That's amazing
[00:00:09] - (): Andy Chasteen: to hear Andy. Well, sometimes it's just weird to be on a podcast that you've been listening to and you're talking to the person that you listen to all the time. So it's. It can be awkward, but it's great.
**** - (): It's an honor to be here. Thank you.
[00:00:20] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, a hundred percent. And I feel like I've been observing your antics from afar for a while. So I feel like I know you a little bit, but it's the first time I think that we've actually got a chance to chat.
[00:00:30] - (): Andy Chasteen: Yeah. Yeah. I'm S I'm super stoked to talk to you. So sweet,
[00:00:34] - (): Craig Dalton: well, a lot of people will have heard of rule of three, and I definitely want to get into that event.
**** - (): Super excited to talk to you about that and, um, gravel cycling in Northwest Arkansas as well. Just as a general topic, because I know as we were talking about offline, that community that you're part of cultivating and a member of is just. So vibrant that, uh, you know, I just love to hear stories from the ground and how other communities can mimic what you're doing and the passion that the community seems to have for gravel riding.
[00:01:04] - (): Andy Chasteen: Yeah. It's, uh, you know, as we were, as we were talking a few minutes ago, there's a lot going on here and, uh, it's quite exciting. And as we like to stay around here, we're, uh, we're just on first base, which is kind of, which is kind of exciting to, to even say, yeah.
[00:01:19] - (): Craig Dalton: And for those of us who have been to Bentonville to.
**** - (): To, to hear you describe it as first base is insane because you've got great infrastructure. You can get around town on bike paths, but that's just the tip tip tip of the iceberg. There's a couple of substantial mountain bike areas and obviously miles and miles and miles of great gravel as demonstrated in the big sugar gravel event every
[00:01:41] - (): Andy Chasteen: year.
**** - (): That's right. And, uh, you know, we're working on, you know, like you said, connectivity, and I don't mean to jump straight into this, but like a lot of what we are working on in the Bentonville area is connectivity. How can we connect neighborhoods, uh, you know, business centers and just life in general to trail and gravel road and safe connectors to get out into these rural area, like.
**** - (): That's a, that's a thing that's been on our mind for, you know, well, for, for a while, but what we've really focused on in the past year is, is really making, it's connecting, uh, Bentonville or the Northwest Arkansas area to the ride experience, which has been a fun, a fun time for
[00:02:24] - (): Craig Dalton: sure. Yeah, I bet. You know, that, that safe connector thread, I think is so important because a lot of areas are great for cycling, but you have to get there and many of us want to ride there.
**** - (): And if riding there is dangerous, that's just going to prevent people from enjoying the sport in the way we want them to.
[00:02:42] - (): Andy Chasteen: Yeah, uh, the lens with which we've been looking at, uh, let's, let's just stay on the gravel side for now, but like the lens with which we've been looking at the gravel side of the, you know, the experience in Northwest Arkansas is, has been heavily towards, okay.
**** - (): This area is growing. This area is growing very, very fast. And there's, there are some things that we cannot control and we can't control growth. You know, we, we, we don't, you know, we want the Bentonville Northwest Arkansas area to grow and be prosperous. And, you know, but we also have to make sure that that experience for the rider is You know, safe, it's enjoyable.
**** - (): Um, it's, uh, it's approachable for someone who might be brand new. So that's kind of the lens with which we've been looking at the gravel experience. And quite honestly, we're building gravel connectors that are not used by cars. They're just for cyclists to get from. Say, let's just say for right now, uh, the center of Bentonville out into these rural areas.
**** - (): So as Bentonville grows and the footprint expands, those will be protected in perpetuity for their gravel experience, which is really cool. And I'm maybe there's other, you know, communities doing that. But if, if they are, I'm not aware of it. And it really is this amazing foresight, uh, to where 20 years from now, we hope that the gravel experience is protected and enhanced and, uh, and it's still what it currently is.
**** - (): So.
[00:04:11] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, it's probably worth, you know, I've, I've spoken about Bentonville a couple of times on the podcast before, but it's probably worth noting that the sort of. And correct me if I'm wrong, but the major employer in Bentonville is Walmart and then entities that are related to Walmart. And it's just, it's been there for many, many years.
**** - (): Sure. The Walmart family has had a commitment to investing in cycling infrastructure. So that when they're thinking about their new campus from the ground up, they're always thinking about how can people ride bikes in and it seems from an outsider's perspective that that's infused across the entire town.
**** - (): Just this idea that bikes are going to be part of this community and to your recent point, we're going to build in infrastructure from the onset of planning, not try to slap it on after we've built a subdivision or grown the community in
[00:05:02] - (): Andy Chasteen: some way. That's right. There has to be some foresight and you're right there.
**** - (): That's the, that's the, that's the focus for sure. And it can't be done. Like you said, behind the ball, we have to be ahead of the ball on that. You know, for example, the walmart's building a new, uh, ginormous, uh, home office campus and on that campus will be single track and there's initiatives within the, within the home office, you know, To, to have a certain percentage of people commuting there, you know, to, to work on, you know, on a weekly basis.
**** - (): And so there is a lot of foresight within, you know, cycling and riding a bike is not only healthy, but it makes, you know, it's just, it's better for a community as well. So, yeah, absolutely.
[00:05:44] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. And as an off road cyclist, I remember going from my Airbnb to an event that the people, people for bikes conference people were having at the, that great museum you have there.
**** - (): And I remember Bridges. Yeah, Crystal Bridges. Yeah. And I remember having the opportunity to ride single track just on the way there to get from point A to point B. And I was like, this is fantastic.
[00:06:07] - (): Andy Chasteen: Yeah. There's kids, you know, kids ride single track to school every day, which I mean, yeah, I'm a little jealous cause I wish I would have had that experience, but yeah, it's, it's a, it's a, it's, we got a lot going on here.
**** - (): There's it's. I like to use the word bonkers. There's a lot of bonkers things going on here. It's busy. It's bustling and it's great. If you're a bike rider, it's hard for me to think there's a better place to be. That's for sure.
[00:06:32] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, no, I agree. It's definitely someplace everybody needs to visit at some point.
**** - (): You know, Northwest Arkansas 10 years ago might not have been on people's radar as a cyclist as a place to go. And now I think unequivocally for anybody who's set foot in that town of Bentonville in that area, it's an emphatic yes, go visit.
[00:06:51] - (): Andy Chasteen: That's right. Yeah, for sure. For
[00:06:52] - (): Craig Dalton: sure. You were talking about sort of childhood and the ability to ride to school, etc.
**** - (): Yeah. Let's, let's roll back a second and just kind of learn a little bit more about where you grew up, Andy. And how'd you find the bike originally?
[00:07:05] - (): Andy Chasteen: Well, man, that's a long story, but I'll try to, I'll try to keep it short. Uh, I grew up in Southern Missouri, kind of right across the border, actually from Northwest Arkansas.
**** - (): It's a really small town. Went off to college. Um, I played, I actually played basketball in college and, uh, you know, in, into team sports, basically, you know, my entire childhood and into, you know, probably 21, 22 years old. And then after I graduated college, I, I got obsessed with rock climbing for some weird reason and, uh, and got really into rock climbing, ultra marathoning.
**** - (): Um, and like I said, like a very long story made very short, maybe not very short, but short, um, I was running the, I was running ultra marathons and in order to train for ultra marathons, I'm like a big guy by like 200 and I knew that I couldn't run a lot of miles to train for these ultras. And so what I would do is I would go out for like, you know, maybe like a 10 mile trail run and then I would jump on a bicycle.
**** - (): I wasn't a cyclist, but I would jump on a bicycle. To take that, you know, pressure off of my joints and like keep injury free. And so I, I would go out and jump on a bicycle for four hours and I just got hooked, completely hooked and really the rest is history, been on a bike ever since. Um, and you know. I still love to do all these.
**** - (): I love outdoor endeavor, outdoor rec, anything outdoor rec, paddling, you know, climbing trail. I like all that, but my obsession is certainly with the bike. So, um, that's the, that's the short story and we
[00:08:39] - (): Craig Dalton: did you discover yourself as a, as a mountain biker in those early days or what, what was your niche of choice?
[00:08:46] - (): Andy Chasteen: Uh, at the time I was actually living in, in Oklahoma city and which, which is, you know, It's there's, there's not a lot of what I would consider like great bike riding there, but the community is amazing. It's a very tight knit, not a big community, very tight knit, but it's very road centric. Um, so I started off kind of on the road bike and, uh, you know, I raced, I did road racing and crate racing and all that.
**** - (): And, uh, I, I was, I was certainly into mountain biking at the time, but that wasn't what I spent most of my days doing. So it kind of started on the road.
[00:09:17] - (): Craig Dalton: Gotcha. Since we're going to get into the rule of three event that you're putting on there in Bentonville, I think it's going to be interesting to just talk about your journey and experience as an event organizer.
**** - (): And I know from your bio that a rock, a big rock climbing event happened sometime. In that period. So why don't you walk us through like that event? Cause I think it is for those of you who haven't heard of Horseshoe hell, go look it up. I think I S I want to say I saw, uh, some stuff on Red Bull TV about it, but I've read about it now outside magazine over the years.
**** - (): So it's a really amazing event, but I'd love to just hear how it got started because I think it's part of your origin story as someone who stuck up their hand and said, I can put on an
[00:10:00] - (): Andy Chasteen: event. Yeah, for sure. So like, you know, rewind back when I was in this very obsessive rock climbing phase and, uh, you know, there's a, there's this beautiful, beautiful canyon out in, uh, in Arkansas called, uh, Horseshoe Canyon Ranch, and they have, you know, 600, uh, you know, sport routes.
**** - (): Um, so single pitch technical, you know, sport route, rock climbing. And I would spend a lot of time there in kind of the early years of my climbing. And we just, me and some buddies, when we can get this crazy idea, it's, it's kind of an outdoor climbing gym. You got a route here, you can climb this route, you take, you know, 10 steps to your right and you got another one, you know what I mean?
**** - (): It's like route on route on right on route. And they're all really good routes. And so I, we got this wild idea to put on an event that was like a 24 hour rock climbing competition, which seems. Idiotic. Yeah. Had anybody
[00:10:54] - (): Craig Dalton: done that in the past? No, no, no. Yeah, we have like on the mountain bike side, there's 24 hour mountain bike racing, but sounds like it was a totally foreign concept.
[00:11:03] - (): Andy Chasteen: Very foreign. Of course, very, very foreign. Um, and so, and all my buddies thought it was a great idea, but nobody really wanted to like I kind of take the reins. So I took the reins and, uh, and, uh, you know, I, it's a private, it's a private property. So I, you know, I went and asked the owner and he was like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
**** - (): You can do that. And just, and thus started this beautiful relationship. This is 2006. And, uh, this, this beautiful relationship with this, with this great, amazing place. And we built this. really cool experience where it started off as a 24 hour rock climbing competition, but now it's a five day festival, right?
**** - (): And so, uh, outside climbing or I'm sorry, outside magazine calls it the burning man of rock climbing. So you got people in costumes and it's a five day love fest party, right? Like, It's I like to say, you know, you can come here and be anybody you want to be for five days as long as you're respectful to, you know, to your fellow, you know, people there.
**** - (): So, um, and the rest is history. It still happens. We're still, we're still doing it. And, uh, even though I'm not like a huge climber is into it as I used to be, um, it's still, it's still a raging, we can, we can only allow 500 competitors, um, so that people can like. Accomplish their goals that they set out, you know, for that 24 hours, we can only let 500 people in, but it the amount of spectators that come and the people who just want to kind of party for the weekend is way beyond that.
**** - (): So, yeah, it's really cool. And oddly enough, I'd never put on a bit before that. I had never even been to a rock climbing competition before I put that on. And sometimes I think that that is actually the golden ticket. Like, yeah. It's almost better to not know how things are done or they're supposed to be done when you're trying to do something that way you can be creative and kind of do, you know, something a little different.
**** - (): So anyways, that was kind of the origins of my first event. And I don't consider myself. I still don't consider myself an event promoter because I have always just done them for fun. I've always had a real job. And, uh, but these have always been for fun and we've cultivated beautiful communities behind them.
**** - (): And that's, that's what I'm proud of, um, in these events.
[00:13:15] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Amazing. I'll make sure to link to Horseshoe Howell. Cause I just, I think it's a fascinating story and the pictures that come out every year. Yeah,
[00:13:22] - (): Andy Chasteen: it looks awesome. It's a real wild time. It's a real wild.
[00:13:26] - (): Craig Dalton: Is it a two person team for 24 hours or is it solo?
**** - (): That's
[00:13:30] - (): Andy Chasteen: it's a two person team. Cause you have to have a belayer obviously. So the whole idea is like, but there are categories just like any other event. Like, you know, there's categories for the most amount of routes climbed by a team or an individual or the F the most amount of, uh, Uh, routes climb that are certain, you know, difficulty level or whatever the case may be.
**** - (): So you, there's all these just like, um, like kind of like the Tour de France. There's a race, there's lots of races within the race. There's lots of categories within this bit, this one event that you can actually go after, which is kind of cool.
[00:14:02] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah. So much fun. So much fun. When did you find yourself actually moving to Bentonville and what, what attracted you to, to that area?
**** - (): Uh,
[00:14:12] - (): Andy Chasteen: I'm trying to think of how many years ago that was that I, that I moved to Bentonville. I, I originally, I originally, uh, became involved in the Bentonville area through, um, I'm self employed. I'm a consultant in basically really what I I've always considered like the biker outdoor industry. And so I really started coming to Bentonville years ago, um, as a consultant for different brands in the industry.
**** - (): So I, you know, I had go to Bentonville and, uh, in my sprinter van and, uh, and spend, you know, you know, Half of a month there at a time. I spent half my time there, uh, just kind of living out of the van and working for clients and doing work that way. And, uh, eventually I moved full time. Uh, we're full time in Bentonville now, but my wife and I, but, um, it started off as kind of like I was kind of, I hate to use the word squatting in Bentonville, but I was kind of squatting in my Sprinter van in Bentonville for work.
**** - (): Yeah. Which is wild. Obviously
[00:15:06] - (): Craig Dalton: you started to discover some of the riding throughout the area. Yeah. Okay. Was there a certain point in time when you sort of got under, got your first gravel bike underneath you?
[00:15:17] - (): Andy Chasteen: Uh, I had been, I had been dabbling in gravel bike, you know, before I started going to Bentonville.
**** - (): I was super into the gravel scene early on, um, for a lot of different reasons. Um, I, I grew up in the outdoors. Um, you know, hunting, fishing, things like that. And it just felt like gravel was more all in line with like my personality and where I came from. I, I grew up in a rural area. So even today, when I ride my gravel bike in rural areas, it feels like I'm home.
**** - (): And so, um, I was, I was into the gravel scene pretty early, I guess, if you will, but not because I thought it was the next big thing is just because it kind of resonated with my culture. Yeah. Personality or my soul a little bit more. Yeah.
[00:15:58] - (): Craig Dalton: Did that, did that lead you to testing the water or some of those early
[00:16:02] - (): Andy Chasteen: events?
**** - (): Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I had a lot of, you know, I wrote an article many years ago. I'm trying to remember when, when that was, but I wrote this crazy article. I have to look it up on the date, but the, and it was just for like my personal website. It wasn't to like, you know, I wasn't a journalist or anything like that, but I wrote this article and this is when, you know, mid South was, was called, you know, the land run 100.
**** - (): And the article was, was titled. Oh yeah. Um, and it just gave all the, I gave all these reasons because it was a bill. It was, it was for everyone. It was for everyone who wanted to ride a bike, no matter who you were and the, the community, the community building and like. So I, I just, it resonated with me early, I guess, is what I'm trying to say.
[00:16:48] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah. And imagine, you know, at that time, obviously being familiar with Mid South and all the events that were going on at that time, over the subsequent years, we started to see, I mean, for lack of a better word, a professionalization of some subset of races. Sure. Lots of community based races. I mean, still to this day, I think event organizers have to kind of navigate their lane and understand like what type of they're putting on.
**** - (): But as we come to the rule of three, I'm just curious of your mindset of. Was there something missing? Was it more, Hey, Bentonville is awesome. And I know my way around and I want to show people a great day out there. Talk us through the mindset of the origin of that event.
[00:17:33] - (): Andy Chasteen: Yeah. Um, I think, I think there's probably a combination of, of, of maybe all of those, um, The origin came, I have to say, you know, allied cycle works has been one of my clients for quite a few years.
**** - (): And, uh, a guy named Sam Pickman, he's the director of product over there. He designs all, you know, all the bikes and everything. I'm a podcast guest over here. Oh, no way. Okay. That's awesome. Yeah. Sam is a super good buddy of mine. I adore him. And, uh, there's actually a connection with that too, because Sam's wife, Lauren is my co director for rule of three.
**** - (): So anyways, I want to back up. Uh, we were, you know, when the Abel came out, Allied's first, first gravel bike, um, we, we were on, Sam and I were riding around, um, on the, on prototypes in Bentonville one time, and we were hopping on single track and popping in and out of single track trail and then back onto gravel and things like that, and we got this one day, boom, all this crazy idea, why don't we put on an event that is equal amounts pavement, uh, Gravel and single track, and we kind of like threw it around a little bit.
**** - (): We thought it was a really cool idea. And that honestly is the origin of rule of three. And really, we sat on that idea for probably 2 or 3 years or I did the Sam's busy. He doesn't want that. He didn't want it. That's not Sam's lane, right? Sam is a brain. He's a brain guy. Um, so that was where the origin of the idea came from is riding our gravel bikes on the single track in Bentonville.
**** - (): And so we sat on this idea for quite some time. Right. And this would have been early 2021. I remember specific, the specific time when I decided it was go time for rule of three, um, uh, Mid South, uh, uh, uh, Mid South again, I love you, Bobby, Mid South had just canceled, uh, their event because of COVID. And the reasoning behind is we can't bring people from all over the country here.
**** - (): Um. Because, because of COVID and I thought to myself, well, you know what I could do? I could put on an event in Bentonville where it's just locals, no one has to travel and we let, you know, we have maybe 150 people show up and that is our, like dipping our toes into the event scene, right? This is my time.
**** - (): This is my time. And so I like started this free Instagram account and just kind of started marketing the idea behind rule of three. Um, next thing, you know, we sold out 700 spots in the first year. I didn't, wasn't expecting that, but, um. That's the origins of Rule of Three. And quite honestly, I'd never put an event on.
**** - (): I've been to a lot of them, obviously, um, and I didn't do it out of, out of a desire to do something. I didn't think it was necessarily something that was lacking in the scene. I just was like, you know what? I want to put on an event and I want to do it my way. You know what I mean? Um, and we'll do it different than everyone else.
**** - (): Um, because I personally speaking, I find value in all of these different ways that gravel events are put on. I think they're all valuable. I think they're all great. Right. Whether you're putting on this beautiful, UCI feel, you know, SBT gravel, that's a polished and beautiful, or you've got unbound. That's this really long ginormous event, right?
**** - (): That's like the worldwide, or you've got rule of three, which we put it on in a freaking field. We're dirty. We're grimy. We're different, right? I find value in all of those. And I think that, I think that, you know, uh, There's, there's enough of an audience now to where, uh, to where all of these different ways of putting on an event find value with, they resonate with, you know, a certain audience.
**** - (): And I, so that's, that was really the reason behind it. Yeah. A
[00:21:13] - (): Craig Dalton: hundred percent. I remember when I first read about rule of three, I was like, this is my jam because I often say like my favorite events. You're going to hate your bike at least once during the event. Event organizer did it right. And when you guys kind of came out with rule of three, I was like, this is awesome.
**** - (): Like it's really putting a fine point on like. You better pick your poison and I very much enjoyed hearing stories about it and hearing some of the racers talk about it because they were going through these thought processes in their head. Like I remember Ian Boswell talking about it and he's like, you know, I know I'm not going to rip single track.
**** - (): So if I'm going to be competitive in this race, I need to do something on the road section and on the gravel section that's going to meaningfully displace some of the more skilled mountaineers
[00:22:02] - (): Andy Chasteen: in the bunch. And he did, he did that year, you know, he put the hammer down and dropped almost everyone on a, on a really long kind of gravel pavement sector, you know.
**** - (): Um, which, you know, the routes really hard, you know, you know, it's historically speaking, we've, it's been a hundred mile route with about 10, 000 feet of climbing and about 20 miles of singer track, you know, it's, and he don't do all that single track at once. Like you're kind of in and out of stuff all day.
**** - (): Right. And that's the whole idea. You gotta be on, there is no zoning out at rule of three, you zone out, that's when you're in trouble. You know, and so the whole idea was to do something that was really, really difficult. Um, but keeps you on and honest all day long. Right. Yeah. And so, um, that was kind of the idea behind it.
**** - (): We throw a huge finish line party. Um, and that's one other thing that we do differently. We're in a field, right? We're in this big wide open field and you're, the finish line is basically a two track road. Last year we built a cyclocross curl course for you for the finish line. Um, and so, and what we do, what I do on purpose or what Lauren and I do, I, I should give Lauren the, Lauren does most of the work.
**** - (): She's the brains behind the operation. What we do is we, we build the finish line. And this is a, this is a very important part for, for the, the brand of Rula3. Our finish line, you cross that finish line in the finish line shoot, and you are in the party. We don't shoo you out of the shoot. You, you, as you come in to cross the finish line, you're in the party.
**** - (): We don't move you, you're there. You can stay there as long as you want to. We put a bag over your shoulder, and in that bag is a burrito, a beer, a coke, and a muffin. So that, so you don't have to go somewhere and pull your wallet out to find food. It's right there. We expect you to stay and have a good time with all your friends and tell stories and whatever, right?
**** - (): But in order to do that, there, it also has to be safe, right? So what we, what we did is we put the last corner, um, on the course, about 10 feet from the finish line. So no one, there are no sprints across the finish. The sprint is before you get to the finish. And so that keeps it like nobody's getting ran over by a bike going too fast.
**** - (): So there's, there's thought behind that because I want people to feel like when they cross that finish line, they can stay right there. And so all these little things that like doing things differently, I think sets us apart and all sets all these other events, but not just us, but everyone who does all these different things with their events that sets them apart.
**** - (): I think that's cool.
[00:24:35] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, that's awesome. Since I want the listener to definitely walk away with a real. Understanding of the rule of three course, you know, you talked about these three elements of single track kind of gravel roads and road, you know, as you, as you talk through people who are coming to the event about the type of equipment they would use, I mean, is the single track entirely, or is it.
**** - (): You know, it's rideable on, you know, a four C tire. I'm just curious about that.
[00:25:03] - (): Andy Chasteen: We keep it, I like to keep it as, as not gnarly as possible. That way, that way, because I don't, I don't want to limit our audience to people who are really good mountain bikers. I don't think that's fair. And so we try to keep most of the single track, uh, in, in like a, like the green blue.
**** - (): Yeah, you know, realm, right? And there'll be some technical sections, but they're not long. If you need to hop off your bike for a second, that's okay. It's not that big a deal, right? We do suggest, um, nothing smaller than a 45 on tire width. Yeah. Um, and, and 50 is your go to quite honestly, just because really.
**** - (): The standards kind of moving that direction anyways, but, um, you're going to have a much more pleasant day on a, on a 50 than you would say, uh, even a 45, but, um, but the course is hard, you know, you know, in, in Bentonville, we don't have these, we don't have these big long climbs like you do out, out where you're at.
**** - (): So we call it death by a thousand cuts, you know, 10, 000 feet of climbing and a hundred miles when you don't have a climb longer than, you know, half a mile at the most. You know, uh, that's, that's a lot of steep, punchy climbing, you know, it's really, it wears you down over the day and like death by a thousand cuts is, is, is the name of the game.
[00:26:20] - (): Craig Dalton: It's so interesting coming from the Bay area where, you know, we have to do an 800 foot climb or 1200 foot climb. Just we go up and then we go down. There's not a lot of flat rule stuff. I personally, I have a really hard time transitioning to the Bentonville type hills because as you said, they just. You might push over the first one and the second one, and then they start to add up, add up, add up.
**** - (): And it hits me a lot differently as a cyclist than the long climbs that I'm used to out
[00:26:48] - (): Andy Chasteen: here. Yeah. It's interesting. Uh, it's an interesting, uh, difference. Like I don't, I don't adjust well to the climbs that you do because of where I live too, you know, so I'm used to, I'm used to 20 seconds at, you know, whatever.
**** - (): 500 Watts or like something above threshold or something. Right. So I guess it's just kind of, you're used to where you're at. Right. So, um, but yeah, it's a, it's a very unique course and we've, we've certainly started out at a, a lot of kind of B road sections, um, which can be in general, even more technical than some of the single track too.
**** - (): Yeah. So we, we changed the course every year, every single year. It's different. I
[00:27:27] - (): Craig Dalton: think that, that underscores how much terrain you have access to, to, which is exciting.
[00:27:32] - (): Andy Chasteen: Yeah. I mean, we change it up. Uh, Drastically every year. It feels completely different every year, which is cool. And you're like, you said the, the, you know, our, uh, our canvas is big.
**** - (): So it's, it's not hard to do that, which is a huge blessing for us. For sure.
[00:27:49] - (): Craig Dalton: The other incredibly unique thing about this event is the entry fee. Can you talk about that? Yeah.
[00:27:56] - (): Andy Chasteen: Yeah. Um. This is just kind of another part of the, of our ethos is our brand. Like we, and it's not just the entropy and it also, it goes back to what I said, uh, you know, a few minutes ago, I don't do this for my job.
**** - (): This is not my day job. I'm doing this. I do this cause I want to, cause it's fun. Lauren and I both do it because it's important to us to put on our, our goal is, uh, not to make money on this. I mean, I know that sounds counterintuitive, but our goal is to put on the best event. Possible for the people that come up that show.
**** - (): And so, um, our entry fee's, 85 bucks, um, and I believe we began, I think our first year it was 65 and now it's 85. And we'll never go over the amount of miles that the event is, is what, is basically That's the goal. Yeah. I think what, what I've committed to, and I, and I like to commit that in public 'cause it keeps me accountable.
**** - (): One other, one other thing that we do is we do not. Take or accept cash from sponsors. We want a sponsor to come to our event and take that cash that they would have given us and use it to add value to the participants, right? The people that are there. Um, I, I'm a fallible human. And so if you were to give me just, I'm just saying personally, me, if you're a sponsor, you're going to give me, let's say whatever, 10, 000 bucks to be a sponsor of rule of three, guess what I'm do probably going to pocket 5, 000 of that and then put 5, 000, the rest other 5, 000 into making the event better for the people.
**** - (): So. What I do to hold myself accountable is I just don't take cash at all. I just say, if you want to sponsor the event, then you're going to have to, you're going to have to come and add some sort of value to the event. And, and it's, and we don't make rules in this, which, which is cool. Like someone came last year and cooked.
**** - (): Bacon the out at an aid station the whole day. Um, so there's all these crazy ideas that we encourage the sponsors to come and do, uh, aid stations, uh, parties at the finish line. Somebody's making margaritas in one of their tents or whatever. Specialized comes and they give they do post finish. They do finish line photos when you're all 30 and gross.
**** - (): And yeah, and those are free. You get those for free. We don't charge. There's no charge for those. Um, and we have. Yeah. What I like to call the best swag bag in the, in the biz, like, um, we give every competitor to not one water bottle too, because everybody likes a matching water bottle. Right? So that's right.
**** - (): We do. Yeah, we do water bottles. We, you know, you get a tea, you get a bandana, you get a, uh, you get an ass saver, you get, you know, you get a stainless steel pint last year. Uh, mirror gave everybody's, uh, insulated, uh, Bottles that were logoed and like, so we, I like, I like to have two or $300 worth of cool stuff that people will actually use Yeah.
**** - (): In the bag that they, that they get at pack and pickup. So for us it's really about creating value and creating a real good time of the at, you know, at, at the event. And, uh, and that's what we're committed to doing. So that's, I guess, a few of the ways that we like to kind of do things different. Right. And I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm lucky I'm blessed that, um, I don't.
**** - (): I don't put this event on for my living if I'm just being honest.
[00:31:15] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. It changes the dynamic entirely, I think, because I mean, it's such a, it's such a difficult business to be in the event business. It
[00:31:23] - (): Andy Chasteen: is. It is. That's right. I can make every decision I make is. Is not attached to the bottom line. And I, I, I know that other events aren't like that and I, I applaud them.
**** - (): I think every other event out there, I've been to almost, not all of them, but a lot of them. And almost all of them. And I will go to them this year too. 'cause I think they're amazing, but we just wanna do things different at rule three. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:31:47] - (): Craig Dalton: And as you said, there's room quite simple. There's room for it all.
**** - (): A
[00:31:51] - (): Andy Chasteen: thousand percent room for it
[00:31:52] - (): Craig Dalton: all. Yeah. I think you mentioned this, but I wanted to make sure the listener, uh, has this as a takeaway that the it's a hundred mile event, but it's, I think you have a, uh, additional distance this year. Is that right?
[00:32:04] - (): Andy Chasteen: Yeah, we actually, we, we also offer a 50 mile event. Um, so that's something that like we like to, we like to say, if you, if you don't think that you can finish the, well, you know, this isn't your typical gravel race, it takes or gravel event.
**** - (): I'll hate calling it a race for some reason that doesn't sit well for me. Um, if. You know, this is not 100 mile gravel event. This will take you a lot longer than you would. It would normally take you to do a gravel event because of that 20 miles a single track. Yeah, you don't think that you can finish something like that and say 10 to 12 hours.
**** - (): We always we like, just we respectfully say you should dip your toes in the 50 miler. And then once you've got that under your belt, hit that next one, right? And so we've got the 50, we've got the 100, and this year we're actually adding the 200. Um, which will be such, it's going to be a sick route. And we're only opening it to a hundred people.
**** - (): Because it's, you know, you know, my, my thoughts are ultra distance. If it's not already here, it's the future. People, you know, I'm thinking of, I'm thinking of myself. I've done how many hundred mile events. And. Where I, while I still love them, sometimes I think to myself, well, what's next? Right. I think people are thinking in, I think a lot of people are thinking, what's next for me?
**** - (): I've done 10 hundred mile gravel events. What's my next step? Well, a 200 mile is probably your next step. And I know that unbound is a 200 miler, but. This isn't unbound. This is, you know, this is 200 miles with 30 plus miles of single track at, you know, and you're circumnavigating this ginormous lake out east of Bentonville.
**** - (): There's a lot of climbing and it's way out in the middle of nowhere. It's an adventure. Yeah. So we're adding that on this year. Yeah.
[00:33:45] - (): Craig Dalton: Given, given the, obviously the duration it takes to ride the single track about 100 and the added single track in the 200, how long of an event are you thinking that's going to be for, I mean, I don't know how to put it in perspective for people from the first to last, but what's the window of time you're thinking?
[00:34:03] - (): Andy Chasteen: Well, we're going to, we'll start the event the day before. So we'll start, we'll start the 200 miler on Friday afternoon, and it'll start from where packet pickup is basically. Um, in town and we're, we're, we're making a 30 hour cutoff and you'll have to wear a spot tracker on your, just like you would any other ultra distance event.
**** - (): Right? So yeah, it really is. It's, it's unsupported. It's fully self supported. We ain't coming to pick you up. So it's, it's a different adventure, but I, I do, I personally believe if it's not already here, it is the future of, of, uh, you know, the gravel experience, at least part of the future. Yeah.
[00:34:40] - (): Craig Dalton: I mean, I think to your point, just about the different flavors of events that exist, even in that like a narrow hundred mile mindset.
**** - (): Now you're seeing it go both directions, which is pretty natural. I mean, I think again, like sometimes. Riding 100 is not enough should be for most people. Sometimes
[00:34:58] - (): Andy Chasteen: it's not. Yeah. And we, we, I had a question. I had someone asked me the other day. Are you ever considered making doing like a 20 miler because your events not that approachable for maybe a newer person.
**** - (): And I was just honest. And I said, no, we're not going to. But what we do, what we do offer is we offer training rides. Um, yeah. In Bentonville, for no charge, they're free. We just did what we call the Rule of 399 last weekend, which we offered a 22 miler route. For people who wanted to see what it's like, you get to practice on the single track.
**** - (): You get to see that, wow, this is a lot harder than a 22 mile gravel ride, right? It takes a lot longer. It's harder to do. It takes a little bit more technical skill. So we, we are, we're trying to train up newer people to at least have the opportunity to maybe hit that 50 miler one day. I don't think that we'll ever have a, a distance that's shorter than that, but we do that outside of our rule of three events, like our rule of three and nine, we do training events and things like that to give people that approach approachable mindset of maybe I can do the 50, you know what I mean?
[00:36:02] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Super interesting. And that goes back to where we were talking about, which is that great community of cyclists and cycling events that's growing up and around Bentonville. It sounds like there's plenty of opportunity and exposure. For people to all these great events that are going on and as they sort of start to put a toe in the water, you're not the only person who's told me there's, you know, great group ride events quite regularly out in Bentonville for people to get a understanding what gravel cycling
[00:36:30] - (): Andy Chasteen: is all about.
**** - (): There are, there's a lot of great events that happen in Bentonville. It, it seems like they're, they're nonstop actually. But, um, and they're amazing. I love to go to all of them. Um, you know, Big Sugar's a big deal, you know? Um, and so, you know, and there's, there's many more that's not, they're not the only one, but there's the, the opportunity, opportunities are endless.
**** - (): You know, in our neck of the woods,
[00:36:54] - (): Craig Dalton: if you will, when does rule of three happen each year?
[00:36:59] - (): Andy Chasteen: Uh, we have we're on the same weekend every year. So, uh, I like to You know, it happens on may 18th, but I like to say that I think that's may 18th saturday might be the I think it's 18th. Um, but I like to say that rule of three is like May 16th through the 19th because we got to shake out rides.
**** - (): We've got, you know, uh, we got, uh, breakfast on Sunday morning. Uh, you know, uh, after the event, we've got all kinds of things going on all weekend. So I hate to like, pin it down. Like, I'm like, come early, stay late, bring your mountain bike to, you know, let's party, you know? So, uh, but yeah, it's on the 18th this year.
**** - (): Yeah. And we like, let's, I mean, yeah. I'm gonna, I'm gonna shout out to like, I think Gravel Locos is that weekend. I think, uh, I think Pete's Pizza Pater is that weekend. And, you know, I've talked to, I've talked to all those guys and I'm like, they're, you know, everybody's kind of like, are you guys, are we, are we okay with all this?
**** - (): And I'm like. We're all in different parts of the country. The audience is humongous. Who cares? You're going to fill up, you're going to fill up, we're going to fill up. Let's all be okay with this. There's no problem with us overlapping dates. I've had zero problems with that. Yeah,
[00:38:15] - (): Craig Dalton: I'm sure. How much writer capacity do you have for this year?
[00:38:20] - (): Andy Chasteen: We, we, uh, we limited at 1600 people, and there's a reason behind that. I think we could probably sell 3, 000 spots, but I don't want to. I want someone who crosses that finish line to look over our after party, right? And feel like they know everyone there. They don't have to know everyone there, but I want them to feel like they do.
**** - (): And so, um, I'm not interested in, uh, you know, having it. Be bigger than that. So that's kind of, that's what we've been at for, this will be our third year that we've been at, at 15, 1600 people. And I like that number. It's, it's nice for us. Um, it helps, it helps our logistics and it just helps people have a better experience too.
**** - (): And so that's probably what we'll stick at.
[00:39:04] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. It's funny. I was having a totally unrelated conversation in my day job, just about a business I used to run and this opportunity we had to basically double the business. But I recognize that doubling the business was going to ruin my life. It was going to be miserable.
**** - (): You know, we'd have to run two shifts in a factory. No one would be happy. I couldn't imagine it being the same thing. And so it's great for you. It's great to hear it from your words as well. Just like, this is a great size for us where you're confident that we can deliver an exceptional experience to 1600 people and why deliver a subpar experience to 3000 people.
[00:39:45] - (): Andy Chasteen: Yeah. And part of that is because this isn't my real job, you know, um, you know, you let three, 4, 000 people in that becomes your real job and I don't want it to be, I like my real job.
[00:39:59] - (): Craig Dalton: Um, when does anyone's registration open?
[00:40:03] - (): Andy Chasteen: Registration opens, uh, February 5th. So what is that like a few days from now? Yeah.
**** - (): Um, and that's okay. If that's okay. If you're like, if, if this is coming out after that, it's not a big deal. I, we have always sold out in like a minute or two anyway. So it's, it's, I just love getting on here. And if, if, if I'm being completely honest. The legacy that I would love to leave behind with Rule of Three is not the event.
**** - (): The, the legacy I would like to leave behind is that everyone goes out and rides these types of, does these types of rides where they live, no matter where they live. Yeah. I, I call 'em rule of three rides. You know what I mean? That's a legacy I wanna leave. Like I think that this is the funnest form of riding a bike that I've ever experienced, even just bar none.
**** - (): And, uh, and I would, I would be happy over the moon if everyone, uh, out there rode, did these kind of rides where they lived. So, yeah, that's a legacy we really wanna leave behind. So,
[00:41:04] - (): Craig Dalton: I, I love it, Andy. I'm just going to shut up. If you had a microphone, I would have just allowed you to drop it and we would have cut the cut the show right there.
**** - (): But I do want to just conclude by saying thank you for the energy you're putting into the sport, your energy into the community there. We'll definitely put, you know, links to rule of three because whether it's this year or next year, love for more people to go and get exposed to that great Bentonville riding and the experience you just described to us.
[00:41:33] - (): Andy Chasteen: Thank you. It was, it's, I've, I'm serious. I've listened to your podcast for a long time. How long, how long have you been doing this now? God, I think it's
[00:41:39] - (): Craig Dalton: five years.
[00:41:41] - (): Andy Chasteen: I was going to say, I didn't want to speak out and say, like, I've been listening to you for three years and you've only been around for two, but cause I, I did, I, you know, you lose track of time.
**** - (): Yeah. I'm, I'm almost positive. I've been listening to you since the beginning. So, uh, very well done. I love listening to your stuff. It's, I like the variety, like you're always speaking to interesting people about all these different interests topics. So keep it up. It's awesome. Thank you. I appreciate
[00:42:05] - (): Craig Dalton: that Andy.
**** - (): Right on. Thanks for spending some time with us, man.
[00:42:09] - (): Andy Chasteen: Thanks man. Thank you. -
This week on the podcast we welcome Thomas English from Trek Travel to discuss the Provence to Girona gravel tour. Thomas shares his personal experience growing up in the Camargue National Park and how he discovered his love for cycling. He discusses the inspiration behind the Provence to Girona tour and the unique landscapes and cultural experiences that participants can expect. Thomas provides a detailed overview of the nine-day trip, highlighting the diverse terrain, cultural differences, and the sense of adventure that comes with gravel cycling. He emphasizes the importance of local expertise and the immersive experience that Trek Travel provides for its guests.
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About the Guest(s):Thomas English is a guide for Trek Travel, a company that specializes in guided cycling trips. Based in Lyon, France, Thomas grew up in the Camargue National Park and developed a love for cycling at a young age. He has a background in field medical engineering but decided to pursue his passion for cycling and guiding. Thomas has been working for Trek Travel since 2019 and has guided numerous trips, including the Provence to Girona gravel tour.
Episode Summary:In this episode, Craig Dalton interviews Thomas English from Trek Travel about the Provence to Girona gravel tour. Thomas shares his personal experience growing up in the Camargue National Park and how he discovered his love for cycling. He discusses the inspiration behind the Provence to Girona tour and the unique landscapes and cultural experiences that participants can expect. Thomas provides a detailed overview of the nine-day trip, highlighting the diverse terrain, cultural differences, and the sense of adventure that comes with gravel cycling. He emphasizes the importance of local expertise and the immersive experience that Trek Travel provides for its guests.
Key Takeaways: The Provence to Girona gravel tour is a nine-day point-to-point cycling adventure that takes participants from the south of France to Catalonia, Spain. The trip offers a diverse range of terrain, including salt flats, vineyards, pine forests, and limestone rock formations. Participants will experience the cultural differences between the French and Catalan regions, including language, cuisine, and architecture. The tour provides an immersive and authentic experience, with opportunities to interact with locals, visit historic sites, and enjoy the natural beauty of the landscapes. Trek Travel focuses on building relationships with local partners and creating a supportive and enjoyable experience for guests. Notable Quotes: "Gravel in many ways has an adventurous spirit. It takes you off the road and allows you to explore quieter and more remote areas." - Thomas English "Cycling is a universal language, but the culture and use of bikes can vary between regions. Gravel cycling allows you to experience the local culture and landscapes in a unique way." - Thomas EnglishAutomated Transcription:
[TRANSCRIPT]
[00:00:00] - (): Craig Dalton: Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport
**** - (): I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist.
**** - (): Yeah. This week on the podcast, we welcome Thomas English from Trek, travel to the show. To talk to us about a new gravel tour they're doing from Two Jarana. The trip looks absolutely amazing. So super excited. To dig in with it and learn more about it and how it came to be. Truck travel since our last conversation with them on the podcast. Has really gone deep on gravel travel, building out several new trips this year, including one in the black Hills of South Dakota. An ACIAR ago to the Dolomites trip in Italy, as well as this To Jerome and a trip that we're going to be digging into today.
**** - (): I had a great experience. In 2022 on my truck travel trip to Jarana and was doing everything I could to join this trip in April. I don't think this particular one's going to happen. Because of some other commitments,
**** - (): . But I'm pleased to have this conversation with Thomas. So you can learn more about it.
**** - (): before we jump in, I do need to thank this week sponsor.
**** - (): A G one. The last few weeks, I've been talking a little bit more about my sleep routine, but today I want to talk about age one and my morning routine. Taking care of your health, isn't easy, but it should at least be simple. That's why for the last 10 years I've been drinking AIG one every day. No exceptions.
**** - (): It's just one scoop mixed with water. My personal preference is through a few ice cubes in there. Once a day, every day and it makes me feel energized and ready to take on the day. That's because each serving of AIG. Delivers a daily dose of vitamins, minerals, pre and probiotics and more. It's a powerful, healthy habit.
**** - (): That's also powerfully simple. For me, that simplicity is really what came into play. When I first started using ag. I really wanted to make sure that my nutritional bases were covered by high-quality nutrition. In a way that was simple to integrate in my daily habits. I couldn't bear the idea of taking a dozen pills and supplements to cover the same. Basic areas that AIG one covers in one scoop of powder. If there's one product that had to recommend elevate your health it's ag one. That's why I've partnered with them. For so long as part of this podcast. So, if you want to take ownership of your health, start with Tri AIG one and get a free one year supply of vitamin D plus K2 and five free AIG. Travel packs with your first purchase.
**** - (): Exclusively at drink. aig.com/the gravel ride. That's drink. dot com slash the gravel ride. Check it out today. Would that behind us, let's jump right into my conversation with Thomas.
**** - (): Thomas, welcome to the show.
[00:03:17] - (): Thomas English: Hi, Greg. Thank you for hosting me.
[00:03:19] - (): Craig Dalton: We're dealing with the challenges of international video conversations today with you in France and me in California.
[00:03:28] - (): Thomas English: Absolutely. Long distances.
[00:03:32] - (): Craig Dalton: Um, I'm excited to get into this conversation with you. Uh, I've been a big fan of Trek's commitment and enthusiasm around gravel travel.
**** - (): And when my buddy Rich hit me up and told me about this Provence to Girona trip, I was like, I got to talk to someone about this. This sounds awesome.
[00:03:52] - (): Thomas English: It's epic. So the, the idea of the trip came in about two years ago now. Uh, I was involved in the design because my roommate is actually a trip design coordinator, if you want the truth.
**** - (): So the two of us got this whole thing running and it's going to be an epic journey.
[00:04:11] - (): Craig Dalton: I love it. I can't wait to talk more about it, but to set the stage, I just want to learn a little bit more about you. We established that you're currently living in France. But where did you grow up and how did you initially find the bike?
[00:04:24] - (): Thomas English: So long story short, uh, I'm actually based in Lyon, France right now. So closer to the French Alps, about two and a half hours away from the sea. I actually grew up in the Camargue National Park, which is where the The Rome River creates a delta. It's famous for mosquitos, flamingos, and, uh, bulls, if you want the whole truth.
**** - (): And it's very flat, so cycling wise, it gets pretty boring pretty quickly. But the scenery is worth it. And if you're beginning with gravel, it's definitely a good spot to start.
[00:04:58] - (): Craig Dalton: And, you know, obviously gravel, we can argue about how long gravel has been around, but did you initially start as a road rider
[00:05:05] - (): Thomas English: or a mountain biker?
**** - (): That's a very tricky question, because I think when, when you start cycling for me, it was, it was, you know, the first key to freedom my parents gave me. I was fortunate enough as a kid to grow up on a boat. So I think I grew this lack of, uh, you know, freedom for a little while being being like. On a boat with with parents.
**** - (): It sounds very spoiled, but we were adventuring in a different way. It's more swimming and and canoeing out to places. And so as soon as we got back to lands, the bike was this this real weapon of freedom and this tool to go adventure and come back in late and get told by my mom. But I think, yeah, it was one bike does it all and I think I, I mainly did mountain biking as a teenager because it was a thing, you know, it was the era of downhill and free rides as they used to call it.
**** - (): It's taken a whole new shape nowadays and gravel came naturally because we, we can do it in many ways. And especially as a company, I think it's, it's a trend and it's very much growing at the moment and it's the perfect. You know, where to explore a new region and mainly you can just get off the roads and go to, you know, access quieter places and places you, you'd wish to go on foot, but you can actually do it with the bike and it hasn't got to be too much of a distance on the road.
**** - (): Yeah, 100%.
[00:06:23] - (): Craig Dalton: It sounds like you grew up with quite an adventurous spirit. How did you find your way into guiding for Trek?
[00:06:29] - (): Thomas English: I started working for Trek for in, in 2019. So this is my sixth season, which I travel and. It's an, it's an amazing place to, to work, uh, good people, you know, the, the support and logistics from A to Z, uh, whatever you get on the guest experience, when you call up the office or the guest services, uh, we feel on, on in the field and feeling that supports from, from, you know, a guide in the field, you don't really find that anywhere else.
**** - (): So that's one, one thing to mention. Uh, but I, I, I kind of fell into it because I have a friend that was a guide a year before me. That was the one of the first reasons. Um, but mainly because I was working as a field medical engineer, uh, in the previous life. And there is a moment where you want to follow your dream.
**** - (): And I was out there adventuring in the mountains every weekend. So I realized I could do it for a living and take people with me, which is what I care for.
[00:07:31] - (): Craig Dalton: Amazing. I feel like. It might be interesting to hear, what is the life of a guide like? Do you, do you ride all year round and guide all over the place?
**** - (): Or are you located in France and you only ride trips in
[00:07:46] - (): Thomas English: France? So that's a fascinating question that we often get from people on the trips, from people outside the trips, from friends and family, or from the first newcomer that you, you, you meet in a, in a party in an evening, for instance. I, I think the life of a guide is is very much full on.
**** - (): It's a season is very long in cycling and it's getting longer. Uh, it's some people would rather do it as a very seasonal thing, like riding through the nice period in the, when it's warm and you can ride in shorts and then there'll be a ski instructor in the winter. So. Each guide kind of have their, their own algorithm to, to go about it.
**** - (): Uh, for me, it's, it's a full time commitment and then I get a bit of time off, uh, in the winter months to go travel and discover new places. And it kind of sticks to my, my character and my way of doing things. I like to go work hard, play hard in many ways, even though that sounds, uh, Very, very general, it's full season and then a bit of time off to, to go and relax and recover and adventure some more, but it is, it is a lifestyle more than a career.
[00:08:56] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. What does that look like for you, Thomas? So are you guiding road trips into Spain one week and then gravel trips in, in France? How does, how does the year end up playing out? So
[00:09:07] - (): Thomas English: at the end of the year, when -you've already guided a little bit, which I travel, you submit a survey to the favorite regions or your favorite regions, your top five.
**** - (): I think it is, um, places you'd rather you'd like to go guide. And if you're lucky, you're going to get a few of those pics. Um, but for the, for the main part, you're, you're assigned to a region for a duration of time. It can go from, um, A couple of trips to a whole bunch of different trips in that region.
**** - (): We have regions that also cover multiple trips. If I take Provence, for instance, we're actually running three trips out of there and nearly a fourth with the gravel, which will be leaving Provence and going all the way to Spain and sorry, Catalonia and Girona. And so. That's, that's more or less how it operates.
**** - (): You're assigned and then you, you'll guide multiple weeks in a row. We try and we try and do maybe three weeks in one week off as a rhythm.
[00:10:04] - (): Craig Dalton: Got it. Yeah. And my, my experience with the team in Girona was that, that between the two guides, they would switch off between time in the van. And time riding. It wasn't lost on me that you've got it as a guide.
**** - (): You've got to be motivated and enthusiastic every day. You're out there on the bike with guests as a guest. If we're tired, if we're grumpy, we can suffer and let you know it. But I imagine as a guide, you're really there to elevate the spirit and never share if you're down. Are there days on the bike when you're guiding that you're just tired?
[00:10:41] - (): Thomas English: Oh, yes, absolutely. And, but you don't show it. I think it comes from, from an inner part of you, it's, that's what I said by it's a lifestyle more than a career. It's, um, we always swap with, uh, our co guides. Uh, so one of us is going to be in the support van, one of us is going to be on the bike. It takes different shifts, uh, depending on the trips and the parameters.
**** - (): Uh, but yes, you, you're always on, we're always on top of things. And. You know, a lot of people on the outside of the job think that we are the fittest cyclists out there and you've got to be an absolute athlete. You, you get the training for sure. And, and some guys are more into cycling than others. Uh, but the, the real, the reality behind it is we take care of people no matter what.
**** - (): Yeah.
[00:11:24] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah. I imagine that's, you know, I see this. All over the place, right? You have people who are innately just skilled at being good spirited, being uplifting and having had that experience with truck travel and that Girona gravel tour definitely saw that like it was more about the experience.
**** - (): None of the riders were trying to show how strong they were as athletes, although clearly they were, they were really there to just make sure we were having a great time. And that's what I think is so great about traveling on bike as a guest and gravel travel in particular. You just have a team around you whose sole job it is to not only find the best rides and routes for you, find the best cafes, create the best overall experience.
**** - (): And it is, you know, it's obviously an investment taking one of these trips, but there is a pretty massive return when all you need to do as a guest is ride your bike all day.
[00:12:25] - (): Thomas English: Yes, and I'll double up, I'll double up on that in a way that I think you come on a holiday to be on a holiday and There is nothing more relaxing entertaining Fulfilling as when you sign up and you just let go of everything and you just have to enjoy it That's that's the main part is we take care of all the rest the you know, the logistics It's not that you're not necessarily capable of Of it, you know, I've, I've caught myself going on multiple guided trips, whether it's hiking or other activities, um, other than cycling and you, you, you appreciate having the, the local expertise, you know, it, it might not be something that's, that's in the itinerary, you know, but, but your guides might know so much about the geology, the plants, or even just the best cafe, because that's where they cycle past every morning and that's their local, their local terrain or their backyard.
**** - (): And that's where it makes the whole, the whole world of difference. You. Okay. The impact of, of that vacation or of that experience on your life is so different when you actually witness it with someone local and you share it with friends. Yeah, a
[00:13:32] - (): Craig Dalton: hundred percent. I want to jump into the Provence to Girona gravel bike tour.
**** - (): This is very much a tour because it's point to point the experience I had with track out of Girona. We stayed in a single hotel and we explored routes in every single direction, which was fantastic. But as I've said before on this podcast, there's something about point to point travel or touring or what have you that is incredibly special.
**** - (): So how did the idea for the Provence to Girona gravel route come up? And then we can dig into some of
[00:14:08] - (): Thomas English: the details. Okay, so that also refers to a question you previously asked on what does the life of a guide look like? Well, to be quite frank if I'm not guiding a trip with people on board I'm usually bikepacking and I've got the packs all set up on the gravel bike and I'm sleeping outside Which sounds ridiculous to a lot of people in on this planet But it's actually one of the most freeing experiences you you can get out there for yourself.
**** - (): It doesn't have to be far It's sometimes just right out right out your front door and you just roll to a place you haven't checked out or you haven't seen and It is the most it is the most freeing thing and you're also you feel very Self sufficient it teaches you a lot of different things and skills where you have to approach people and places Uh, but the main idea behind this trip from Provence to Girona, and we named it that way because there, there are two places that actually ring, uh, or resonate to cyclists, uh, whether they're roadies or already very much accomplished gravel riders.
**** - (): Uh, it was the first point to point that we, we were thinking of putting in the book. It's based on a race called, a race route called La Poco Loco that came together, I think in 2019. And it's very tracks since then, but that's what really inspired me initially, and I had written portions of it in a, in a few bits and pieces and on different holiday times.
**** - (): And this was the perfect, this was a perfect opportunity to actually start from one point, go all the way and see if we can actually make it work with hotels and accommodations and places to check out. It
[00:15:46] - (): Craig Dalton: sounds super special. What is, I imagine over the course of that Provence to Girona, the terrain is going to vary quite wildly.
**** - (): Can you talk through a little bit and if it's helpful to talk through the various nine days, just what is gravel like in Provence and how does it change over the course of those nine days?
[00:16:09] - (): Thomas English: So I can give you a global overview of of the trip if you want not to go into too much detail because nine days is It's quite epic and and you do see a lot But I do want to say that I grew up in in the area where we begin the trip in so, you know I remember I remember being in in my youth in my young age and teenager and adventuring here and there at the weekends And putting all these things together in the culture of the South, because it's, it's a very strong culture in the South of France.
**** - (): And this, the, the, the landscape had me stop and take many pictures. Of a place that I've, you know, I've grow, I've, I grew up in. You, you get accustomed to seeing these things on a regular basis. And coming back to it a few years later, it stops you. You're, you're blown away by the beauty of summer's scenery.
**** - (): And when I say that, it's on the first day, for instance, We will start the trip and we'll greet everybody, uh, right by the, a bit of a, it's a, it's a swampland where it's famous for ornithology for birdwatching, uh, just south of Montpellier. So imagine a huge city, all buzzling and whistling and noisy and, you know, just the heart of a big city and you just escape, we greet you in this, you know, you just come off the train or come out of the airport and we greet you in this really quiet bird sanctuary.
**** - (): With a nice French buffet, you know, proper Provence, there might be some rosé involved for those who, who want to start with that, um, giving you a few, a few bits and knots about the culture and the area you're in and throughout those first 60Ks, which is quite a, quite a bit for a first day, you get to see everything, so much variety from, from the sea, the sea, the salt flats to. The hills, a bit. Of vineyards here and there and the, and the pine forests.
**** - (): I mean, you, you, I can't wait to see the smiles on people's faces when we reached the hotel after the first day. Sounds
[00:18:05] - (): Craig Dalton: like an amazing start.
[00:18:06] - (): Thomas English: It is. It is true. So as I was saying, we, we did the Reese, we did the research with my roommates. Who's a, who's a true design coordinator and she's not from the region, but both of us were like kids.
**** - (): And you know, it's, it's the joy and the accomplishments of bringing something together that actually works out. And to see the, the, the versatile, the, how versatile the, the. The bike actually is on different terrains. You, you ride a bit of, you know, open forest road to single track, um, and all this on the, under the blue Provence skies, because, you know, it is subject to a bit of wind from the north, um, let her mountain or the missile for the East as you go.
**** - (): It's, it's, it's a superb. It's just an area of France that is very underestimated because it's. It's usually some some somewhere between a place you just drive through to get to Spain or you just go to Montpellier or like a few places on the coast, but people don't really stop on these on these areas.
**** - (): So. We've got these beautiful barren landscapes in, in some part of the trips that are just untouched, not no cyclists. You just, it's just epic adventure.
[00:19:15] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, I think that's, what's mind boggling to me when I think about this trip is just the, the versatility of the gravel bike, that's easy to maybe to conceive of a point to point ride on a road bike.
**** - (): And you're sort of following a map, but traveling onto these single track trails and just kind of getting off the beaten path just adds this additional layer of. Intrigue and joy. I think on each day's ride. And I
[00:19:40] - (): Thomas English: think we we call, you know, the inner child in our in ourselves. Um, I think a lot of cyclists will refer to that.
**** - (): But I think gravel in many ways has a bit of an adventurous spirit. And you might agree with me on that one. But, you know, it kind of takes you out there. You're not on a on a on the road. You might be leaving civilization for a little bit. We've designed this trip so we can always access you. The route in many points, but for the most part, you know, the whole stress of having traffic and cars around you that you might have on on on the road or uncertain of our road trips, even though we do take very quiet roads there.
**** - (): It's it's in existence. You won't have, you know. Any vehicles on most of our itineraries because we're, we're mainly on, on gravel and yes, like from, from one place to the next, you'll, you'll see us, uh, a part of the landscape that not many people get to witness or get to see because it is completely different experience from sitting in the car or riding on the road than being on those single tracks.
**** - (): Yeah,
[00:20:48] - (): Craig Dalton: absolutely. What are the next handful of days have in store for riders?
[00:20:53] - (): Thomas English: So yes, I, I touched base on the, on the first one. Sorry, I was, I was kind of selling that first day because. It blew our minds. So I think I like I said, I can't wait to see people smiles as we roll into the first hotel. It is a point to point.
**** - (): So we are going to be changing hotel every day apart from our fifth day where we'll have a proper rest day. Um, but the first day we, we leave Montpellier where, where it's, it will be more of a greeting point. Beautiful scenery on those first 60 K's through like what I've said before, the difference. Uh, see.
**** - (): Salt flats, single track, into the forest, up in the hills, back in through into vineyards. And we, we have a hotel a little bit on the outskirts of the city. Where the French rugby team has actually been hosted for the trainings, if you, if you want a little, the little hints there. But so, no rugby match on that first evening.
**** - (): The next day we kind of sneak out through a secret passage that follows a river out of the city. And we're heading to one of my favorite places in France, which is called Le Lac de Salagout. Uh, the Salago Lake famous spot for kite surfers and for geologists because the soil is a bit of an ochre red. It very much has the color of grapes, so not to bring it to too close to wine, but that's my French side.
**** - (): Um, you cross the hills and you arrive on this beautiful blue emerald lake with this, this red kind of, you know, tar looking gravel. It makes a mess of the bikes and it makes them look very adventurous all of a sudden because they get covered in this little red, red dust. Uh, but it's an epic scene to arrive and we're staying in the village.
**** - (): That's a little bit the outskirt of it in the national park called Moore's and it's very famous for its, um, Dolom, Dolomitic, uh, rock formations where erosion is just left. These huge limestone columns, uh, beautiful maze of, that was just shaped by nature, uh, and our hotel is, is nestled into that, into that rock face.
**** - (): And there'll be a nice little pool to, to relax after, after a big day on the bike. So, like I said, we go a little bit further up north after the first day where we were actually stationed by the sea. On the third day, we leave that beautiful area in the quiet morning, and we hit the hills. There'll be a bit of climbing in the morning.
**** - (): And for those who have got an idea of what Provence looks like, or the whispers you've heard of the adventures down there, we're going to be going through a few stone villages. Very, very French. You might come across a You know, to a dish vu like these iconic French cars or markets. Or we can stop and have CA coffee and a cafe, uh, to cross the plains from these hilly villages or hilly, hilly based villages all the way to a bigger town, again called busier.
**** - (): Which is famous for multiple reasons, but we're, we'll have a nice sit down lunch in a very retro French cafe where people are playing Pétanque just outside, uh, in front of a lock, you know, we sat there and all the locals were coming around to chat us up. So, you know, it might take a bit longer than scheduled.
**** - (): Don't be in a rush there. It is a big day. Uh, but that's, that's kind of the idea, um, is to actually enjoy the ambience and the culture as you're, you're crossing these landscapes, not just whizzing past.
[00:24:23] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Taking an opportunity to enjoy the riding as well as the culture seems like the reason you'd be there for sure.
[00:24:32] - (): Thomas English: A hundred percent. And so that brings me on to the fourth day. So Béziers is a bit, a bigger, a bigger town. We, we have lunch on the outskirts of it, by that lock, as I, as I presented. And there, there are famous pieces of architecture, if, if this is what you enjoy in, in the French history. We are going to go past some very impressive monuments that I can state later.
**** - (): Um, and we follow what we call Le Canal du Midi. Which is a, a French icon. A lot of people, a lot of French people would actually go down there on holiday, uh, either rent a boat or kayak up and down this canal. Um, it is, it is a beautiful piece of French architecture and the waterways in France are famous in the history of, of the country for transporting goods, you know, the different wars and battles, why was it separated here or there, uh, the historical borders as well.
**** - (): But this, this third day finishes. Back back on the coast again after following this famous canal and we'll be heading we'll be heading the next day. And getting closer to the, to the Pyrenees to go to a place called Billister after crossing a few national parks and famous birdwatching areas again, um, we'll, we'll be climbing a little bit more than the previous days.
**** - (): The third day and the fourth day are quite, quite. Big days on the bike. So it's not for the faint hearted, but we'll support everybody, you know Croissant takes you a long way as they say and there's one thing in France for sure is you can't you can't go hungry Because once you've done this little, you know section of gravel you come across this little village and there'll be a bakery and for sure You know the smell of it everything just kind of entices you to get down there and grab something to go So we'll make sure you try the good ones And there are some specialties of the South that are proper to the South, um, that you can only find in the bakeries down there and we'll make sure you try them.
**** - (): Um, and you know, that fuels the climb up to this little village of Belista, which used to be one of the main points of interest in, in this area for, uh, white wine growing. Um, they, they still do. It used to be a massive cooperative and we are staying in a, in a hotel called Le Riberac. It is. It is something out of this world.
**** - (): We were astonished by what they've done with this eco lodge. You might be sleeping in a wine tank. Yes, we are sleeping in a wine tank. Um, there are spa and, you know, different treatments you can do all around the grape over there. It is one of a kind. It is a place that was designed by two amazing architects.
**** - (): The owners is an amazing couple that we got to meet and had the pleasure to have a nice glass and a sit down conversation with. And they really have, you know, an ambience about this, this whole environment that they created, the team that they put together. They still have a part of, um, the cellar that is functional, that, uh, gathers most of, uh, the winemakers of the area as a cooperative.
**** - (): And the wine, the wine is delicious down there. The, the riding up will maybe annoy a few, maybe. make others enjoy the adventure twice as much. Um, you know, we all come at a different, at a different place when it comes to climbing on a bike, but that's a good place to finish day four solid before a rest day.
**** - (): And we are, we are entering what we call peak at that, which was the scene of multiple combats between, uh, what used to be the Spanish empire and France at a time. And, you know, these perched castles up on the hills, this limestone rock face and this little tower up top with a, with a, with a Catalan flag and the border changed so many times in the past, you know, hundreds of years or decades that it's, it's just very interesting to see the cultural changes throughout the trip because you go from a very Provence, French, uh, south, south of France part with all its influences and its culture.
**** - (): And the food evolves as you go down the coast, getting closer to Spanish influence and, you know, the way people talk and behave and, oh, it's just, it's just superb. You get to see that even with a foreign eye, I think. Yeah, it's so
[00:28:54] - (): Craig Dalton: interesting to see and hear that not only will the terrain change, but you'll get these subtle changes in culture across the nine days, uh, changing from the south of France culture to the Catalan culture at the end.
[00:29:11] - (): Thomas English: Absolutely. And if, and if you've been to Gerona, as I've heard you, you've experienced that, that part of the culture and, and, you know, cycling. Cycling is international. It's, it is a universal language. Um, uh, there is a bike in every country you go to, and that's, that's not a lie, that's the truth. But the, the culture that a com, you know, comes with it.
**** - (): Maybe the French and the Spanish or the French and the Catalan don't necessarily see the bike. In the same way, you know, maybe the French will use it as a commuter to go get their fresh baguettes from the bakers in the morning, whereas Catalan people will use it to go from, you know, place to place or there's always a different use for it.
**** - (): But this, this, this area we're going to is not famous for, you know, holiday and it's not overcrowded. We're really taking you. On, on the unpaved. Uh, this is a proper adventure. Um, we're taking all these, these detours to get to Ballista, um, which is definitely, definitely one of my, one of my crushes for, um, for this trip, because we'll have a rest day in that little village.
**** - (): We'll probably have, Awesome activities to go enjoy off the bike for those who want to. You also have the opportunity to, you know, relax because we do come, we do cover between 350 kilometers and 400 kilometers over the first four days. It is a pretty. High level trip, we, we classify as avid. So not to be intimidated by it.
**** - (): It does require quite a bit of, you know, physical preparation and a good level of, of writing, uh, but the, but the, the technicity of the gravel stays stays very accessible in many ways. And it's all about how, if you're okay with adventuring the whole day on the bike, you'll, you'll enjoy this trip very much the same as we did my roommates.
**** - (): Um. Uh, actually used, uh, the money plus, which is the assist version of our gravel bike and she absolutely loved it. And, you know, we have very different levels of cycling, the 2 of us, but we kept it together and, you know, it's, it's just very complimentary. You get to enjoy the adventure together. So a big rest day on day 5, uh, to recover from, you know, 4 days of adventuring already.
**** - (): Uh, there's a pool at the hotel. It's an eco lodge. So they have all these amazing green certifications. We, we do a great job at Trek Travel at building relationships with the people we work with, because I don't see us as a big tour operator where we just walk in, you know, give our standards and, and then, you know, move on to the next season or go somewhere else next season.
**** - (): We do build these relationships, and I think you feel it on trip with us. If you've traveled with us before you, you get to appreciate. All the little details that we look into, we always try and better, um, the experience, you know, when you, when you arrive in Bethesda, I can tell you already, uh, Raquel, who's, uh, actually from Madrid originally, who's just fallen in love. With. That region.
[00:32:18] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, that's so special as you were mentioning before. I mean, one of the really. Exciting parts of getting a guided tour is having these locals who can show you the ins and outs of the local area and the hotspots and the great riding. Phenomenal.
**** - (): So it sounds like at this point, you're up for arrest day.
[00:32:39] - (): Thomas English: A hundred percent. Yes, it's, it's just, it's, it's going to be, it's going to be, uh, you know, not a resurrection, but it will be, it will be one of those that you actually need to push on for sure.
**** - (): And, and we'll see if people are up for activities, but I'm, I'm already guaranteeing a lot of people will stay back and say, we need a day to just relax and recover and prepare for the next four. But we, on the fifth day, we, we start tackling the Pyrenees. , we'll be going through what we call the, this, this, the circus. It's, um, it's this beautiful, uh, ochre lime, um, formation, rock formation facing Canigou, which is one of the highest peaks, uh, in this part of the Pyrenees. So you can, you can see this, this dark mountain in the background, uh, slowly getting closer.
**** - (): And you got all these different rock formations that we're snaking through to and getting closer and closer to the mountain will be staying in in an old, um, spa and treatment, um, uh, facility area on on the night of day six, uh, to tackle called Dallas on day seven. So. If you, if you, if you, if you've had too much gravel over the, the first six days, don't, don't worry, we've got you covered with a bit of pavement just to, just to rest, uh, a little bit from gravel on, on day seven, because Col d'Arès is, is definitely a stinger, as we call it in, in, in the area, um, it is a bit of a steep one for 13, 13 kilometers, and we do have a section of gravel for those who, who want to keep the trend going, uh, it is, the base of it is this beautiful medieval town where, uh, We'll offer a bit of a treat and, you know, a bit of a quick snack if people want to start tackling the climb on a, on a, a bit of a light bite.
**** - (): And once you reach the top, it can be, it can be two, two rooms, two ambiance, as we say in French. Um, it can either be beautiful and sunny or, uh, as it was when we were up there, uh, last fall, quite miserable and windy. Uh, but the views on the Pyrenees that you get from up there no matter what, are just.
**** - (): Absolutely stunning. And you descend all the way to this Catalan village after crossing the border, um, called Camprodon, famous for its beautiful stone arch bridge. And from there we are in Catalonia. And the following day, day eight, takes us along the Vies Verdes, uh, which is an old rail to trail, uh, all reconverted.
**** - (): Um, it is part of the Pyrenees, if you've heard and followed some of the racing across the Pyrenees. So we are going to be, like, using some of these tracks. And it's beautiful, what we call Catalan gravel. It's very nice, you know, small compact limestone. It takes you all the way back into the Mecca of cycling today, Girona.
**** - (): And you will definitely feel the Catalan countryside. If you've been on the Girona gravel trip, you know what I'm referring to, but you will, you will smell, you will, we say you will taste, because usually you have a bit of stuff on your water bottle, and we have the tips for you there, um, but it's, it's, you, you, you get a second country on, on this trip and it hits you like, like a, like a day ride.
**** - (): I don't know how to, how to say it in any other way. You cross this border and, um, You're, you're, you're in Catalonia and on these gravel paths, just, um, you know, flying along, along the Via Verde, you, you enter Girona from, from the back, the back door, and we are, we will be staying at Hotel Nord, which I think you say that on our, on our trip there, um, which is the perfect, you know, little nest in, into the city.
**** - (): And, yeah, I think it's a good, it's a good way to, to go from, from the South of France, Provence, specific architectural types, all the way into a completely different culture, a completely different, you know, language, accents, influence, uh, but you, you'll, you'll get to, you'll get to feel the connection between the two countries, between that border that's been distorted over the years and the centuries.
**** - (): Um, you'll, you'll definitely get that cultural aspect of the trip because we, we felt it as we were, as we were prepping it and we have a, a, a, a nice last day ride, uh, just to, to spend the legs more, more or less, um, before we say farewell. And that's a, a good way to, um, a good way to then spend a bit of time in Girona if you want to stay in Girona or head towards Barcelona, which is another great city to explore after Montpellier in France.
**** - (): Um, this, yeah, this trip kind of starts and finishes in, in two really cool points of interest as well, which is another good reason to, to come and join this adventure.
[00:37:26] - (): Craig Dalton: Amazing. Anything else you'd like to add about the trip before we go?
[00:37:30] - (): Thomas English: you know, you create some pretty special bonds over nine days. Uh, sometimes it is over the rest day. Sometimes it's straight off the first day. Um, we are going to be riding these amazing checkpoints as it are seven top, top end, uh, gravel bike. Um, 45 seat tires, which is very comfortable, but after, after eight days of proper riding, you'll probably be in need of a good rest and maybe sometime off the bike.
[00:37:56] - (): Craig Dalton: What an amazing journey and adventure. Thanks so much for coming on and telling us about this trip. It sounds fantastic. I have a love for these point to point adventures. And everything you've described from the terrain to the cultural changes that you're going to experience over the nine days makes this track travel trip.
**** - (): Sound amazing.
**** - (): Thank you for spending some time with us this evening. And I look forward to seeing you in France at some point.
[00:38:24] - (): Thomas English: Thanks a lot.
[00:38:25] - (): Craig Dalton: That's going to do it for this week's edition of the gravel ride podcast. I hope you enjoyed learning more about that. to Gerona adventure that Trek travel has in store for us. They've got some slots this year, I think starting at the end of April.
**** - (): So head on over to track travel.com and check out some of the photos to go with. Thomas's great. Narration of the trip.
**** - (): I hope everyone's 20, 24 is filled with many, a gravel adventure.
**** - (): Until next time here's to finding some dirt onto your wheels. -
In this episode, host Craig Dalton interviews Stefan Barth, author of the book "Ultra Cycling and Bikepacking: All You Need to Know." Stefan shares his journey into ultra cycling and bikepacking, discussing the challenges and unique aspects of these long-distance events. He highlights the importance of sleep, nutrition, and positioning in preparing for and competing in ultra cycling races. Stefan also emphasizes the need for a strong physical foundation and the role of mindset in overcoming obstacles during these demanding events.
Ultra Cycling and Bike Packing. All you need to know (Amazon link)
ISBN: 978-3-910501-03-4
Episode Sponsor: Pillar Performance (use code: CRAIG for 15% off)
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About the Guest(s):Stefan Barth is an author and coach specializing in ultra cycling and bikepacking. Based in Frankfurt, Germany, Stefan has a passion for long-distance cycling events and has participated in races such as the Race Across America and the Transcontinental. With a background in medical fitness coaching, Stefan combines his knowledge of training, nutrition, and mindset to help athletes prepare for and succeed in ultra cycling events.
Episode Summary:In this episode, host Craig Dalton interviews Stefan Barth, author of the book "Ultra Cycling and Bikepacking: All You Need to Know." Stefan shares his journey into ultra cycling and bikepacking, discussing the challenges and unique aspects of these long-distance events. He highlights the importance of sleep, nutrition, and positioning in preparing for and competing in ultra cycling races. Stefan also emphasizes the need for a strong physical foundation and the role of mindset in overcoming obstacles during these demanding events.
Key Takeaways: Ultra cycling and bikepacking require a different approach to training compared to shorter races. Factors such as sleep, nutrition, and positioning become crucial in ensuring success. Sleep strategies vary depending on the duration of the event. While shorter races may not require sleep, longer races necessitate planned sleep breaks to maintain physical and mental well-being. Nutrition plays a vital role in sustaining energy levels during ultra cycling events. Experimenting with different foods and finding what works best for individual digestion is essential. Positioning on the bike is crucial for efficiency and energy conservation. An aggressive position, combined with flexibility and mobility training, can improve performance and reduce energy expenditure. Building endurance for ultra cycling involves training at or just below threshold levels for extended periods. Long intervals of 20-30 minutes at high intensity can help increase the ability to sustain effort near threshold. Notable Quotes: "Just because it's possible to push through doesn't mean it's fun. Cutting off sleep is a sure way to get rid of the fun." - Stefan Barth "Your base or your fundamentals are always a good physical condition. That's what you really need to finish those events." - Stefan BarthAutomated Transcription, please excuse the typos:
[TRANSCRIPT]
**** - (): .
[00:00:00] - (): Craig Dalton: Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport
**** - (): I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist.
**** - (): This week on the podcast, I've got the great pleasure of welcoming author and coach Stefan Barth. He's the author of a book called ultra cycling and bike packing. All you need to know that was recently translated from German to English. It's a very deep technical book. About ultra cycling and these long distance events. Highlighting how different the training. Preparation and otherwise competing successfully the events. Needs to occur.
**** - (): Stefan noted that in his preparation for ultrasonic. Recycling events. While he could cobble together a number of resources, podcasts, videos, et cetera. There was no singular location. That highlighted insights and philosophies and training methodologies. That he could find. So he sat on a journey to create the, this book. They look forward to jumping into the conversation with Stefan.
**** - (): Okay. Before we jump in, I do need to thank pillar performance for their support of this episode. Pillars of sports, micro nutrition company. Who's developed products that intersect between pharmaceutical intervention and sports supplements for athletes. As I mentioned previously, I'm really thinking about my overall health and wellbeing this year.
**** - (): Trying to make some changes from a lackluster 2023.
**** - (): My nighttime routine and sleep has become a crucial part of being able to perform my best pillars. Triple magnesium is informed by leading heart rate variability researcher, Dr. Dan Pluse and used by many high performing athletes. Pillar has recently signed on as the official micronutrition partner of Israel, premier tech. It has been integral to my end of the day routine. 30 minutes before sleep.
**** - (): I mix in one scoop of pillar's triple magnesium powder into a glass of water to help guarantee my body spends as much time. In REM and deep sleep as possible. Pillar uses a high dose of glycinate magnesium. Activating the parasympathetic nervous system. And ensuring you fall asleep. And stay in that restorative sleep phase longer and longer. I've been tracking my HRV data each morning and it speaks volumes as to what pillar triple magnesium is doing for my recovery, higher HRV and more closely linked REM and deep sleep cycles on top of that. I feel better. More rested and recovered. If you'd like to try pillar today, head on over to pillar performance.shop. For us listeners, you can head to the feed.com/pillar and enter the code Craig for 15% off. That's Craig C R a I G for 15% off all first-time purchases. Would that behind us, let's jump right in to my conversation with Stefan.
[00:03:22] - (): Stefan Barth: Stephane, welcome to the show. Hi, Greg.
[00:03:25] - (): Craig Dalton: I'm excited to get you, to know you a little bit better and learn more about the book you wrote Ultra Cycling and Bikepacking, All You Need to Know. As we were talking about offline, I think it's a very interesting journey where many of us honor are on as cyclists from starting to do gravel events, starting to do longer gravel events, getting interested in bikepacking.
**** - (): And I think as the sports evolve and the science of training evolves, it's super interesting to have a discussion with someone like you has thought a lot about. Ultra cycling, how to train for it. You've thought so much about it that you've written a book
[00:04:03] - (): Stefan Barth: about it. Yeah. And glad that it got translated into English.
**** - (): So more and more people are able to read it now. So I'm really looking forward to our chat.
[00:04:15] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, it's so maybe that's a good point to let's, let's set the stage where you located and maybe follow that on by where did you grow up and how did you discover cycling in the
[00:04:25] - (): Stefan Barth: first place? Okay. Yes, I'm from, from Germany and I'm located in Frankfurt here.
**** - (): And yeah, so the book is about ultra cycling and bike packing. And that actually is where I started my cycling career. So it was like always. I was, I was driven to the, to the longer, longer events. And even when I started cycling as a teenager, it was always, okay, I want to go the, for the 100 kilometers to the town that is a little bit farther away.
**** - (): Uh, most of my friends, they were not able to reach these towns even by the bus. And I was feeling very, very cool just to be able to go there by bike. And somehow this, this got my addiction to long distance cycling starting and yeah, it developed from that. So. I'm probably a young starter, so I think it was like with 14 years that I did my first free day ride and yeah, then it escalated quickly.
[00:05:29] - (): Craig Dalton: And did you ever get drawn into kind of more traditional bike racing or was touring and long distance riding always your true love? Yeah, only
[00:05:38] - (): Stefan Barth: for a short time. I had like a triathlon time. So I had a couple of years when I was more doing Ironman distance triathlon races. And that was the time when I got more professional in cycling as well, because I got more, yeah, I focused more on competitive cycling.
**** - (): And during that time I did a couple of criterium races, but it never really catched me, so it's not, yeah, it was not to my taste to, to ride in a, in a bunch and to always, uh, have this fear of, of, of a crash and I'm not the, the guy made for speed, but rather for, for long stretches and to, to feel like the, the exhaustion creep into your legs.
**** - (): But. Because of the duration and not because of the intensity.
[00:06:29] - (): Craig Dalton: Got it. And where did your sort of professional life and, uh, and cycling start to intersect?
[00:06:37] - (): Stefan Barth: A couple of years ago, it was like really the time when I, when I did those Ironman distance races that was like the beginning of putting more thought into how should I prepare my body, how should I prepare my mind what do I need to do with nutrition to get better on those races and yeah, that's probably where I started to think, okay, I could or this is my passion and I, Will, well, I want to do something in my professional career in this area in the long term, and soon afterwards I started to go part-time as a coach.
**** - (): And I did like, in Germany it's called medical fitness coaching. So I studied in an area where you put a lot of weight into how to. coach athletes, but at the same time, how to do rehab and prehab. Yes. And this I did some years in part time and I had a full time job in the finance sector.
**** - (): And when I published the book or the German edition of the book, ultra cycling and bike packing at that time. I had to make a decision because both careers would have been, one career would compromise the other one. And then I decided, or it was pretty easy for me actually to decide that I want to, to have a job that is my passion at the same time.
**** - (): And so I decided to go all in, in coaching and writing about coaching.
[00:08:02] - (): Craig Dalton: That's super interesting. And it makes sense given some of the very technical elements of the book. Around physiology that you lean into that we can talk a little bit about later. And it also makes sense that Ironman journey, which you and I share, I feel like as athletes, Ironman, it's one of those disciplines that highlights your deficiency of preparation very quickly, both physically nutrition and all kinds of things.
**** - (): So I'm curious, you know, building off upon that, when did you start getting drawn into the more ultra distance cycling events?
[00:08:40] - (): Stefan Barth: Soon, soon after my first Ironman actually. And at that time I did like big bike packing trips as like base my training for Ironmans as well. So I, I always try to have one vacation in summer.
**** - (): And be like three or four weeks with my bicycle and ride as many miles as possible to build a strong or a strong foundation for the Ironman training. And during that time, I noticed that there's a crazy race in America called the Race Across America. I think it was some time about 2013, probably, something like that.
**** - (): When I heard the first time about this race across America and that there's an Austrian guy called Christoph Strasser, who's not living too far away from, from here who is really good at it. And I was like, okay, he's crossing the whole continent in 10 days. This is crazy. And that's what I want to do.
**** - (): And yeah, that's, that's how I. Got drawn into this long distance cycling. And I think that actually kicked off here in Europe, quite a, uh, fascination for this sport in general, especially in Germany and Austria. And there popped up a little more and more 24 hour cycling events. And that was the beginning for me.
**** - (): Then I started to, uh, to participate at these 24 hour events and yeah, just looked how, how much can I do or how long can I go in 24 hours? And then this evolved into supported races. So I did. A couple of races, ultra cycling races where I had my own support crew which is quite expensive and at the same time, more and more bike pack, bike packing events popped up here in Europe, like transcontinental and more and more smaller ones.
**** - (): And yeah, then I switched.
[00:10:36] - (): Craig Dalton: You were talking about the transcontinental and some of these other. Ultra endurance road cycling events. How many days were those events taking?
[00:10:46] - (): Stefan Barth: Yeah, I think that the first, when I, when I started the smaller ones were two or three day rides. And my longest one was, uh, nine, nine days, one hour.
**** - (): So this is a bit more than three and a half thousand kilometers. It's
[00:11:04] - (): Craig Dalton: always super interesting to me when you kind of transcend that single day racing format to multi day format, to just understand the mentality. And I know some of this is included in the book, but I think it's great background before we get there.
**** - (): How do you handle kind of sleep along the way
[00:11:22] - (): Stefan Barth: in those events? Yeah. It's, it differs between like ultra cycling is not ultra cycling, but it's important to make this this to distinguish between how long, or is it a multi day race or is it just 24 hours? Because I think in, in a 24 hours, uh, race, at least for me, there's no difficulty and uh, no sleep at all.
**** - (): So if you're doing a 24 hour race. it's okay to have a stop time about 15 to 20 minutes only. And in a 48 hour race, it's still works for me without sleep, but just if you are practiced at it and everything beyond 48 hours is where it gets really tough and where I think you just have to sleep. probably can go with a napping strategy.
**** - (): It's way more fun if you sleep. And that's something I think that some people underestimate the first time just because it's possible to push through doesn't mean it's fun. And to cut off the sleeping time is a sure way to get rid of the fun. That's for sure.
[00:12:32] - (): Craig Dalton: As you were, as you were pursuing these new and different style races, were you able to find the resources you needed to understand how to train and prepare for them, or was it more trial and error along
[00:12:45] - (): Stefan Barth: the way?
**** - (): It was a lot trial and error and yes, there was, I think nowadays it's easier 10, 10 years later, there's a lot of more content on the internet and you have podcasts that go into different topics of ultra cycling and you have bloggers that post a lot but still there's not too much scientific background of it and when I started, I tried a lot shit.
**** - (): By trial and error, and I also tried to find people obviously who have done it before, uh, try to talk with them, connect with them on social media, and at the events, use the time to, to have a couple of words with them. But it was a very. Uh, sometimes frustrating way because you have to invest a lot of time and you could not be sure that you, yeah, you get a return on your investment because yeah, then you, you tried something out, uh, for example, nutrition and I had like one huge mistake I made.
**** - (): When I tried to copy the nutrition, nutrition strategy of Christoph Strasser from his race cross America. And he had like some, I don't know if it's sponsored product, but like some fluid nutrition and he was always telling, okay, he drinks like 200 milliliters of this. Uh, fluid per hour and that works fine for him and I was, okay, if it works for him, I should try it as well.
**** - (): And I did it during a race and this was probably really one of my biggest mistakes because I totally underestimated that he's. probably something like 40 pounds heavier than me because I'm quite short and he puts in a lot of more power. And I totally underestimated how this power and this body weight factor correspond on your nutrition needs.
**** - (): And I drank way too much and I consumed way too much energy which ended. in me at the roadside feeling very, very sick. And yeah, I had to do a complete restart. So I, I did finish the race, but after lying in the ditch for, for, I don't know, 30, 40 minutes I had to, to To build in a period drinking only water, don't eating anything, and just have a complete reset for my body and my mind, and then I could start again.
**** - (): But yeah, that's, that's the mistakes that I made on the road. And that's what the book is about, that not everybody has to lie in this ditch and make the same mistakes all over again.
[00:15:31] - (): Craig Dalton: You sort of alluded to this in your answer there, but if we go back to sort of what inspired you to write a book, I'm just curious how you would answer that question.
[00:15:41] - (): Stefan Barth: Yeah, it's at the beginning I was not planning on writing a book. So probably this is the most important part because when I started it was more like, okay. I. Okay. I had a lot of conversations and I have tried a lot of things and I wanted to write it down for myself first. So it was, was not planned to, to make a book out of it, but rather a compendium for myself for future events.
**** - (): And also when I thought about starting a coaching business, business, this was like a blueprint for my clients. And then I started to talk to other athletes about what I had until that moment, and they were really, really interested in this whole topic and to have a compendium for how to best prepare for ultra cycling events.
**** - (): And yeah, then I started thinking, okay, maybe I should look up into more and more papers and maybe I should add some, some new chapters to it. And at that time I started with the interview. So the book incorporates a couple of. Of interviewees or a couple of interviews I did with other athletes and I started with those who are my friends, obviously.
**** - (): And we just sat at a table for, I think with Mati Koester, I sat for almost eight hours and we talked the whole day about what are topics that he's interested in. And then I used these, yeah, guideline or these topics that we discussed that day to go to other athletes, also to some, yeah, some very renowned athletes, and just to ask them about their, their experiences to in these topics.
**** - (): And somehow the interest was. Yeah. Overwhelming. Because when I started, I started with people I know and at the end I talked to Lael Wilcox and at the beginning I would not, would not have thought that I will be talking to someone like Lael Wilcox about her racing experiences and be able to incorporate them into, into my book.
**** - (): So yeah, it was a process and it almost took four years from the beginning of. When I started to write down the first sentences until I finished the book in German, it's almost four years. So it was probably a way longer than normal, normally an author would take to write one book.
[00:18:11] - (): Craig Dalton: Got it. Super interesting.
**** - (): Obviously there's a lot of information about. Cycling training out there when you talk about maybe road racing or traditional mountain bike racing. And as we've mentioned, there hasn't been a lot documented about training for ultra cycling and bike packing. If there were a couple areas that you would highlight that are dramatically different from shorter races to longer races.
[00:18:35] - (): Stefan Barth: Yeah, we talked about one, which is like sleep, something that is completely unimportant for normal sports, or which is only important when you talk about recovery, but there's No need to cut sleep during doing races. And of course, nutrition is a big, big part because nutrition becomes even more important, the longer the races, also the whole part efficiency and how you sit on your bike, how it gets way more important because.
**** - (): You develop more problems with your neck, with your shoulders, with your lower back than if you are just riding your bike for five or six hours. And also the training aspect is different. So it's not just about pushing your lactate threshold or your, your, or getting more power to the pedal because at the end, it's not necessarily the efflet.
**** - (): With the most power or the best power to weight ratio that wins the races, but it's the one that has the best overall ability to ride the bike as long as possible. And with as few breaks as possible. So many questions are coming to mind on this. Oh, okay. So let's go give it a shot
[00:19:53] - (): Craig Dalton: to some of those a little bit one by one.
**** - (): So we talked a little bit about sleep. Obviously. Most of us, we try to get eight hours of sleep a night when we're at home, try to do rides well rested every time in order to compete in some of these events. And in order to even maybe just do them, you need to be able to sleep outside. You need to be able to sleep on the go when you, maybe it's easiest if we talk about a four day long event, for example, what is a sleep strategy that Maybe someone newer to the sport could, could realize and approach.
[00:20:30] - (): Stefan Barth: Yeah. Yeah. At the beginning, I would always recommend to have like a longer sleeping break every night, something like maybe three hours or three hours sleeping time, which will translate into something like four or four and a half hours stopping time. And the important thing is to sleep cycles, you know, because your, your body or your mind, your brain goes through different sleep stages during the course of the night.
**** - (): And I think a lot of people already heard this that it's. It's easier to wake up if your total sleeping time can be divided by 90 minutes. And this reflects those sleep cycles. It's easier to, or you have one, you have four, four sleep stages. And one of them is where you are sleeping really, really deep.
**** - (): And if you wake up or if you get woken by your alarm clock or friends, whatever during this really deep sleep this will be very confusing and you can actually, if, if it is combined with the physical exhaustion it can happen that you wake up and you're feeling disoriented and you don't really know where am I, am I racing or what's going on?
**** - (): So it's good to know your own. sleep cycles because they differ from this 90 minutes a little bit and they get like they get each time you go through them during the night they get a little bit longer so if you are trying to sleep three hours around three hours the for most people it's better to sleep for example three hours and 10 minutes which reduces already the risk of waking up from this deep sleep stage.
**** - (): And then I would always recommend to have routines if you're going for four or five day ride. It's way easier to go to bed around the same time every evening and to wake up around the same time every morning. It's a little bit like in your everyday life. If you're working on shifts and Yeah, you have to, uh, some day you are waking up at 6am, sometimes you have to wake up at 10am, then it gets really, really hard to to be fit in the morning.
**** - (): And during the event, it's the same, it's way easier to have a routine and also transfer this routine as or as much as possible to the whole cycling event. For example, also, it's a good idea to have your lunch break around the same time each, each day which makes life way easier, especially for
[00:23:06] - (): Craig Dalton: beginners.
**** - (): I imagine so. One of the things I wanted to highlight, which I thought was interesting, you mentioned, you know, if you're intending for a three hour sleep, you probably need a four hour window of time. And as someone with a limited amount of bike packing experience, I can, I understand that because you need to get off the bike, you need to cool down.
**** - (): You may need to change to get comfortable. You have to lay out your sleep gear, and then you have to do all that in reverse to get yourself back going. So it's interesting. To hear you highlight that, which makes sense as you've
[00:23:38] - (): Stefan Barth: said it. Yes. And that's also one, uh, very, very good advice. Which I learned from, from one of my interviewees because a lot of us, we are quite organized and we like, like it's structured.
**** - (): And so a lot of people when they do their first bikepacking experiences and they have this sleep break. They like, they, uh, arranged their whole equipment so that after their sleep break, they can be moving as fast or, yeah, yeah, as fast as possible. So like you're already putting out the gear that you're needing after your sleep break and that oftentimes is a huge mistake actually, because if you push your, your, your limits a little bit, then you are already a bit sleep deprived, maybe, and you're a physical, like, physically completely exhausted when you have been writing for maybe 15 hours this day.
**** - (): And then you are trying to make decisions before you go to sleep. And oftentimes you need way longer to make decisions. And then those decisions are Not always the best ones because after you wake up, you notice, ah, it's way colder than I expected, or I feel way colder because just my yeah, my, my heart rate is really, really slow after, after sleeping but I already packed my, my warm clothes.
**** - (): at the complete, uh, yeah, the most down, downward, uh, in my, in my bike packing bags. And so it's a good, good advice to just grab your sleeping bag, grab your mattress or whatever you use, your BB bag, and just close your eyes. Try to fall asleep immediately. Don't forget to put your alarm clock, but, uh, do the whole equipment thing and arrangements.
**** - (): You can do this all after you have slept and you will notice that you are way more alert, you are awake and you will make better decisions. The second
[00:25:40] - (): Craig Dalton: thing you mentioned to drill into was nutrition. And again, many of us have done gravel events, a hundred mile, maybe 200 mile. And we sort of know, Oh, we could get by with.
**** - (): Sports nutrition all day long, how do, how do we need to think about it differently if we're extending to that example, four day event?
[00:25:58] - (): Stefan Barth: Also there's yeah, there's some parts are for nutrition. Some parts are the same like in normal cycling, especially. during training. So it's you have the same amounts of carbs per hour that you try to get in during your training rides, for example, so that you get the best physical adaptions.
**** - (): But at the same time you need to plan ahead and think about what can you get during a bikepacking trip, because you are limited oftentimes to gas station food or. Uh, if you're doing races in remote places, like the Silk Road Mountain Race or the Atlas Mountain Race, uh, well, you have to eat what you can get there.
**** - (): So it's always good advice to experiment a lot with nutrition so that you know, uh, which kind of food can I take down, which kind of food can I stomach. And what do I like probably because yeah, if you are used to going with sports nutrition or with sweets I don't know if you ever tried to, to survive on those sports nutrition gills and, uh, bars for, for eight hours.
[00:27:07] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, it does add up and you do get quite sick of them by the end of the day.
[00:27:12] - (): Stefan Barth: Yeah. And I think you get a feeling in your mouth that's like sticky and doesn't feel, feel very nice. So, yeah, it's good to know this in advance. And to experiment with other foods also with solid foods that you can buy like cheese or like sandwiches and like, uh, like rice and stuff like this if just to try it out and to learn, can you digest it?
**** - (): Does it taste good for you during writing? So this, this would be like the first step to, to get a bit more experience with different kinds of foods. And then another part is like proteins. You need proteins on a longer ride, uh, even though you don't need them. During short rides, because your body is not, or it's, it's easier for your body to, to transform carbs into energy.
**** - (): But during a four day ride, you also need proteins for your recovery periods, especially if you plan on sleeping three hours every night, because then your body actually has the time to recover a little bit
[00:28:19] - (): Craig Dalton: from day to day. Where, in your opinion, where is the cutoff point for needing protein? In your cycling nutrition in terms of hours, would you need it in a, in a, in a 15 hour day or does it not come into play until you're 24 hours?
[00:28:34] - (): Stefan Barth: That's a difficult question and I'm not sure if there's like scientific proof for when it gets beneficial. But I would always already included. If you go beyond those recommended durations for cycling, because like, if your ride is longer than five, six hours, this is already almost a little bit too long to build up endurance.
**** - (): And if you stretch these, these timeframes, I think it's beneficial to add up some, some proteins as well. And definitely if you go beyond. beyond those 15 hours. And it's individual, you will probably notice it. For example, when I eat too, or when I limit myself to two carbs during a right, at some point, I will get a headache, I need some fats or some protein.
**** - (): Otherwise, my body tells me, okay, this is this is just too restricted to carbohydrates. So if you notice something like this. it can be the solution to eat something with fats and proteins. And then there's also, especially with proteins, a huge difference between male and female athletes, because there's, yeah, like males are way more or it's It's, they are way more dependent on carbohydrates, on carbs during, during activity.
**** - (): And female athletes, they are more dependent on carbs after the activity for recovery purposes. So female athletes, they also need a little bit more protein already during their
[00:30:14] - (): Craig Dalton: rides. And then on to the next subject of positioning, interesting that you highlight that as a key area of consideration. Can you talk through sort of some of the differences one might want to consider in their position as they go longer and longer in
[00:30:29] - (): Stefan Barth: duration?
**** - (): Yes, because the longer the duration gets, the more efficient you need to be. Because if you can save only 10 Watts or every day for a writing time of maybe 16 hours each day you really save a lot and you really gain a lot of speed. And at the same time, you reduce your energy expenditure and energy expenditure is like one of the.
**** - (): Key limiters in ultra cycling because it's simply it's, it's really, really difficult to get in enough energy for what you are burning. And so if you can. reach the same speed with less energy expenditure, this already is a huge, huge benefit. And so it's a good thing to have an aggressive position on your bike, actually in ultra cycling and not being too focused on comfort, because this is something many beginners Doing because bike fitters also are promoting this.
**** - (): If you are going for longer rides, try to get your position on the bike, more comfortable. And my approach is a little bit different. Because I think you can you can have an aggressive position on your bike, which is at the same time, comfortable if you are putting the energy or the. Uh, time into your own flexibility, mobility and strength training, because most of the time the limiter and not the bike.
**** - (): And so this is what I call efficiency in the book. Like the, the position on your bike is, is detrimental for your efficiency and you can gain a lot of efficiency by optimizing your. Own your own, uh, flexibility, mobility, and strength.
[00:32:22] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. I know you, you go into sort of great technical detail on how to improve your strength and flexibility and mobility.
**** - (): And I would agree that those are critical elements for any cyclist, whether you're trying to get a more aggressive position or not, I can only speak to my own limitations, which are definitely hindered by the lack of mobility. And I spend a lot of energy these days, trying to increase my mobility to.
**** - (): Have that all day long comfort because I, I don't currently have that right now in my Cycling. You know, as I go longer and longer, eventually my lower back's gonna start to hurt and it becomes quite a limiting factor in my own personal case.
[00:33:01] - (): Stefan Barth: Yeah, and I think cycling is like a limiting sports or a limiting type of sports because we have, we don't have a lot of different movements.
**** - (): We only have one type of movement because the, the bike completely determines how your body moves. And so the body is limited to, to there's no rotational movement. There's no sideways movement. There's nothing more dimensional. This is only happening in one in one plane. And that triggers a lot of adaptations in our body that are not that good.
**** - (): And in combination with a lot of jobs where we are sitting like eight hours in front of a desk. And then we go home and then we sit two hours on the roller or on the bike and actually we are only sitting. So there is a reason why cyclists chose a sports where you are sitting because we don't like to move too much.
**** - (): So
[00:34:00] - (): Craig Dalton: is there any, is there any sort of silver bullet in terms of Mobility exercises that are your favorite go tos.
[00:34:08] - (): Stefan Barth: Yes, definitely. Because like the, the disadvantage of the bike giving you or limiting your, your mobility and your, your range of motion during, during riding is also kind of an advantage, at least from my coaching perspective, because you can be pretty sure that almost every cyclist has the same problems.
**** - (): Because we all have exactly the same movement. If you compare this to other sports, like, like football or ice hockey or something like this, like there's a lot of potential. injuries and sources of injuries and because every athlete is moving in a different different way but cyclists they are all moving in the same way so we are having the same trouble and one of those troubles is that we are losing the flexibility in our posterior chain so like the the pedal stroke is highly dependent on your quads So this is where the power comes from.
**** - (): So you get really, really strong, strong quads and your body, uh, needs to compensate this because the quads, they are, they are pulling at your, at your hips and at your pelvis. So you need the same amount of force at the back of, of your body at the posterior chain. And since we don't have strong backs of the legs, because this is just pulling up the pedal again, and this is like the recovery phase of the pedal stroke what your body does is it tightens the hamstrings.
**** - (): Because tight is like the compromise you, if you, if you don't have, muscles, you get tight muscles just to have like this counterbalance to the very strong quads. So it's always the first part of a mobility flexibility training for cyclists is always. Gaining more flexibility in the, in the hamstrings, in the backs of the legs and afterwards strengthening these body parts that you have a counterbalance to, to the quads.
**** - (): Interesting.
[00:36:15] - (): Craig Dalton: That's helpful. The final area you touched on, and I'm going to add an additional component to it. You, you talking about training and you were talking about how simple power to weight ratio, which may be the sort of the predominant metric in road cycling, Is not necessarily going to make or break your success as a ultra endurance cyclist.
**** - (): So if you could talk a little bit about that, and then I would add on just a question around mindset.
[00:36:45] - (): Stefan Barth: Yes. So, I think a long distance cycling, it's more important to, to increase the capability to cycle at, or just a little bit below your threshold. So if you, if you started with. Maybe you can ride four hours at 50 percent of your threshold, then it would be a very, very good or a huge benefit. If you increase this, this, uh, capability to 60 or 65 percent of your threshold and your threshold can actually stay the same the whole season.
**** - (): It does not necessarily need to, to go up all the time, but it's, it's very important that you, that you can sustain, uh, huge amounts of time. Near your threshold or that you that you can gain. Yeah, that you can push up those, those percentages. So this is what I tried to with my coaches most of the time in training to, to increase their ability to, to get to those 60 or 70 percent in a, in a 24 hour race.
[00:37:50] - (): Craig Dalton: And what kind of, uh, training efforts help to that end?
[00:37:57] - (): Stefan Barth: It's a lot of steady state writing. So a lot of writing a little bit below your threshold. But doing this for, for longer periods of time, for example, if you are looking in the typical, uh, training plans generated by Strava or by Swift, you will see a lot of, a lot of efforts, a lot of intervals that are lasting only a couple of minutes.
**** - (): And I also, I'm a big fan of having those long intervals of training. 20 minutes sometimes, or even 25 minutes almost at your threshold. And that's a very good way to get better at, at riding near your threshold. Because your body gets very, very good at. Eliminating the lactate from your blood while pushing hard.
**** - (): So you, you reduce the, the level of lactate that is building up in the, in the intervals.
[00:38:54] - (): Craig Dalton: Gotcha. So if you were out on a, on a training day for one of your athletes, would it be something like, you know, two or three 20 minute intervals at 65 percent of threshold with 10 minute break in between something like that?
**** - (): Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yes,
[00:39:10] - (): Stefan Barth: but way more than 65 percent of threshold. It's more like 90 percent of threshold for 20 minutes then. Okay. So it's like, but it's a slow buildup. If you start with this kind of training and you are going maybe with eight minutes in each interval and do this three or four times, then you are, this is a good start.
**** - (): And if you do this a couple of weeks. At some point this will, it will make, it will make, uh, like you put a, put, put a switch on and it will be, you will be able to go for 20 or 30 minute intervals. Yeah.
[00:39:43] - (): Craig Dalton: As you're thinking about for your athletes, these longer events and selfishly, I'm thinking about my own 200 mile or 360 kilometer aspirations this year, obviously in a lot of the training plans you might see, you might have a six hour training ride or an eight hour training ride.
**** - (): These events are going to last longer than that. You know, it might be a 15 hour day for me and certainly for a 24 hour, four day event, you're talking about thousands of kilometers. How do you in training kind of build up to that capacity to continue on for these distances?
[00:40:21] - (): Stefan Barth: Yeah, you need to stretch the traditional cycling distances from time to time.
**** - (): Because I like to I or I call this challenges. Because you you need to know how your body reacts to those long rides. They are not very efficient in building up endurance. Like I said earlier, there's like Five to six hours. If you are already a very good cyclist, maybe you even benefit from a seven hour endurance ride, but everything that is longer than that, just yeah, just you need more recovery time afterwards, but you don't get the physical adaptation or not more physical adaptation than from a four or five hour ride.
**** - (): But in ultra cycling, we're also in what you are doing on the gravel bike, you need. Sometimes a ride that lasts 10 or 12 hours, just so that you know, okay, how will I feel when I'm really exhausted and how will I cope with nutrition? Will I be able to eat at the end? Because I think that's something probably, you know, it from your triathlon time eating gets difficult the longer you are, you're active.
**** - (): So you really need to know. Okay, does the food that I can stomach after five hours, can I still stomach it after 10 hours? And how, how does my butt hurt after 10 hours? Because this will hurt different than after five hours. And it's good to know how this feels and how you can cope with it. And then you can, you can think about a strategy.
**** - (): How you will, how you will tackle this problems during unbound. So yes, I incorporate rights that are longer than 10 hours from time to time, but limited. Not, it's not, it's no good if you do this every weekend.
[00:42:14] - (): Craig Dalton: A couple questions that came up after your last comment, Stefan, around training. So I remember from marathon training, like we'd only run 22 miles and we'd never run that full distance thinking you'll be able to get there on race day.
**** - (): The second thing for my ultra marathon training was we would often do a long day on Saturday and then follow it up by a medium day on Sunday. And my understanding of that philosophy was, Hey, we can't beat you guys up and we can't have you running 35 mile days. Quite regularly, but we can do a 22 mile day on Saturday and a 15 mile day on Sunday to try to kind of make the body feel like it's done.
**** - (): This long event. Does any of that track with the type of training that makes sense for ultra ultra cycling?
[00:43:03] - (): Stefan Barth: Yeah.
[00:43:04] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And the final thing I want to touch on it. I mentioned it a bit earlier. It was just Sort of mindset. And I thought about this a lot as we were talking about sleeping and waking up from a three hour sleep, having to get your gear ready and get going again. I could just see in myself struggling to kind of.
**** - (): Put, put pedal in front of pedal after, you know, just sleeping for three hours. So can you talk about the importance of mindset and maybe if there are any tips and tricks that one can learn to keep, keep pedaling forward?
[00:43:40] - (): Stefan Barth: Yes, definitely. Because you, you need to find like a sweet spot between recovery. And exhaustion during training. So, I also like to do those back to back sessions. For example, also with those long interval sessions we spoke of earlier, that I am doing, like, maybe on Friday, some really long and hard intervals, followed by a long ride on Saturday, followed by a short ride on Sunday, to build up this exhaustion over the weekend.
**** - (): But still without compromising your recovery completely. So yeah, that's, that's a good way for, for those working athletes.
[00:44:27] - (): Craig Dalton: Interesting. I mean, it sounds like with all this, you know, preparation and doing the work leading up to your event is key. It's probably a trite thing to say, but I think that work for ultra cycling clearly is a lot longer than it is for shorter events.
**** - (): Because I do think you need to prepare yourself mentally for All the intricacies around your sleep system and getting up and preparing the different types of nutritional needs, as you've, you've outlined and the, just a different mindset you need to go going into these events.
[00:45:01] - (): Stefan Barth: Yes, there's, there's a couple of, of little hacks that I, I like to include or that I included in the book.
**** - (): Because when it comes to mindset. I have a little bit a different opinion than a lot of people out there, I think, because from my point of view, the mindset is a little bit overestimated when it comes to ultra cycling or some ultra adventures, whatever you call it. Because in the general public, it always comes down too much to the mindset.
**** - (): And from my point of view, your base or your Your fundamentals are always a good physical condition and that's what you really need to finish those events. And of course you can finish an ultra cycling event or a bikepacking event just by mindset and by iron willpower. But this will mean that you will do sacrifices and maybe even sacrifice your health in.
**** - (): in some situations. And I don't like that too much about this sports. And I don't like that in the general public people focus so much on this. So from my point of view, it's always more important to build up your physical capacity. And then mindset is important, of course, because like you said, you go out there and you will.
**** - (): Have uncomfortable situations but then it's more, uh, willpower what you need. You need to like, you need small life hacks that will, that will keep you going. And I like to, to dig a little bit into how our brain works in these parts, because our brain is like still the same brain that we had thousands of years ago.
**** - (): And it's divided into parts that are. focused on emotional fee or on emotions, on feelings. And you have parts in your brain that are focused on the rational thinking. There was a couple of tricks to better get those rational thinking parts in your brain working. And this will help you a lot in ultra cycling events because yeah, you will trigger a lot of those, those those feelings that are very ancient in, in humans and your brain will correspond.
**** - (): With reactions that are also very ancient and those are oftentimes not the best, the best, uh, reactions. So it's important to, to keep rational and to keep your thinking going. So one life hack, for example, is very, very easy. And that's the, the stop button. You can visualize a stop button. Uh, once you notice that your thoughts are dysfunctional and this stop button or the sign like on the road sides on the highways, I'm not sure how they are looking in the US, but here in Europe, it's like a big red sign where in white there's written stop on it and just by visualizing this sign, which is a very, very easy picture to visualize.
**** - (): You can, you can stop those emotional parts in your brain from taking over completely. And you gain a few seconds. And this is oftentimes enough to start rational thinking. And once you start rational thinking, you will notice that you, you are way better, you are better able to keep your willpower because you keep yourself in control.
**** - (): Yeah. And it's, it's a difference between motivation and willpower. So like motivation is the thing that, uh, gets you going in the preparation and which is probably the, the reason why you signed up for the event and which is the reason why you are willing to put in all those training hours and then during the event itself, you need to Willpower, that's the thing that will bring you to the finish line.
[00:49:00] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, a hundred percent. I think Stefan, that's a good place to end it. I appreciate the time this evening calling in from Germany. Appreciate you taking the time and effort to document everything in this very thorough book on ultra cycling and bike packing. I think you did a great service to that community and the world.
**** - (): We'll certainly put links to how to find the US version of the book in the show notes of this podcast.
[00:49:25] - (): Stefan Barth: Yeah, that's great. Thanks for your invitation, Craig. Cheers.
[00:49:30] - (): Craig Dalton: That's going to do it for this week's edition of the gravel ride podcast. Big, thanks to Stefan for joining the show. That's going to do it for this week's edition of the gravel ride podcast. Big, thanks to Stefan for joining the show. It's so fascinating for me to think about these ultra cycling events and the differences it would require in order to be successful there.
**** - (): If you're interested and able to support the show. Ratings and reviews are hugely appreciated. Or if you want to contribute financially, please visit buy me a coffee.com/the gravel ride. Until next time here's to finding some dirt under your wheels. -
In today's episode, we interview Tony Karklins, the owner of Time Bicycles. We discuss Tony's journey in the bike industry, from working in a bike shop to becoming a distributor and eventually acquiring Time Bicycles. Tony shares insights into the evolution of the bike industry, particularly the impact of carbon fiber technology. He also talks about the acquisition of Time Bicycles and the company's focus on manufacturing and innovation. The conversation then shifts to the new gravel models introduced by Time Bicycles for 2024 and the unique features that set them apart. Tony explains the importance of staying true to the Time brand while catering to the evolving needs of the market. He also discusses the future plans for Time Bicycles, including expanding manufacturing in the United States.
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Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos:
About the Guest:Tony Karklins is the owner of Time Bicycles, a storied brand in the cycling industry. With over 40 years of experience in the bike industry, Tony has a deep understanding of the market and has played a significant role in the growth and development of various bike brands. He started his career in a neighborhood bike shop in the early 1980s and went on to become a bike shop owner. Tony then ventured into distribution and agent deals with European bike brands before joining Orbea as the managing director of the Americas. After his time with Orbea, Tony acquired the Guru Bicycle Factory and later acquired Time Bicycles from the Rossignol group. He is now focused on expanding Time Bicycles and bringing manufacturing back to the United States.
Key Takeaways: Tony Karklins has over 40 years of experience in the bike industry and has played a significant role in the growth and development of various bike brands. Time Bicycles is a storied brand in the cycling industry, known for its high-performance carbon fiber bikes. The acquisition of Time Bicycles by Tony Karklins was driven by the desire to acquire the company's manufacturing capabilities and continue the legacy of the brand. Time Bicycles is focused on innovation and manufacturing, with a particular emphasis on resin transfer molding technology. The introduction of new gravel models for 2024 reflects Time Bicycles' commitment to meeting the evolving needs of the market while staying true to the brand's identityTranscript:
[TRANSCRIPT]
**** - (): time_bicycles _ jan 19, 2024 001_riverside
[00:00:00] - (): Craig Dalton: Tony, welcome to the show.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: Thank you very much. Thanks for inviting me. Uh,
**** - (): Craig Dalton: as, as a fan of the sport and someone who's been around the sport from my bike shop days in college till now, I'm excited to talk about Time Bicycles. It's such a storied brand in the industry. And having spoken to you a little bit offline, your journey to get there, I think is going to be fascinating for the listener to learn about.
**** - (): Craig Dalton: And ultimately we want to talk about the new gravel models you've got for 2024. Sounds great. Where do you want to start? Let's start off just by a little bit of your background. Where are you located and how'd you get into the sport of cycling and what led to you working in the bike industry? All
**** - (): Tony Karklins: right.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: I, uh, I live in Little Rock, Arkansas. You know, Arkansas is the new hotbed of cycling globally now. So, uh, I've been in the bike industry here for about 40 years. I started to work in the neighborhood bike shop in the early eighties. Became a bike shop owner in the mid 80s, and I ran 2 retail stores here until 99, 2000.
[00:01:00] - (): Tony Karklins: It's almost made it 20 years in bike retail here, and I decided that I wanted to stay in the bike industry, but I was kind of done with retail. I'd taken my turn there, and so I started traveling to the European trade shows. Looking for bike brands that were established in Europe that maybe needed help in the United States.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: Um, and did a few small distribution and agent deals with some, you know, really neat, small artists and Italian brands and kind of 1 deal led to the next. And then, uh, late 99 or early 2000. I was introduced to this brand that I had never heard of. And no 1 in America had at that time was called. And it was a tiny little, uh, BASC company that was moving out of kind of mass production bikes, and they wanted to get into high performance, and they wanted to get their brand on the Tour de France, and they wanted to see if they could produce, you know, a leading global brand, and started as a distributor for them for a couple of years.
[00:02:00] - (): Tony Karklins: It went really well, uh, and then we built it into a joint venture, and I ran that joint venture as the managing director of the Americas until 2014. So, uh, yeah. And we built Orbea in that time to, you know, leading European brand selling in the United States and a true global player. And it was a really interesting time in the bike industry because I started in it right before the carbon fiber boom happened.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: When I went to work for Orbea, premium bikes were made out of really lightweight steel. Uh, or, uh, even and we advance in a really lightweight aluminum, like Columbus Starship and some of the really cool 2 pound aluminum frames and they were light and they were fast, but they wrote like crap because they were so stiff.
[00:03:00] - (): Tony Karklins: Right? Yeah, I mean, carbon fiber comes into the forks and all of a sudden it made the aluminum bikes ride a lot better. And so, uh, watch, watch carbon fiber hit the bike industry, and it really took the industry by storm in around 2003, 2004. There was this moment where all the best bikes in the Tour de France were aluminum or titanium.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: And within 12 months, it all went carbon fiber. And really changed the bike industry a lot because the bike industry and the bike brands, all this history brands that you know of, they were born as metal shops, right? They can cut and weld and bend, but when carbon hit, everybody was like. What is this stuff?
**** - (): Tony Karklins: Where do I get it and how do I do it fast? And so I lived in this moment where I saw all that bike production all through the United States and Europe come down in the premium categories and get shipped to Asia because they could make carbon fiber. Yeah.
**** - (): Craig Dalton: I was going to ask you from an Orbea perspective, like how did they solve that problem?
**** - (): Craig Dalton: They knew they had to get into carbon fiber, the same
**** - (): Tony Karklins: thing at the same time. You know, Orbea was Orbea is they take fast, smart decisions quick. So we were right there at the very start of carbon fiber. I remember there was this moment in America where we had a warehouse full of carbon fiber before it was really.
[00:04:00] - (): Tony Karklins: Hot, like a couple of months before it was hot and then Cannondale went into bankruptcy and then something happened at light speed, but spike the cost of titanium raw material. And then like a month of fearing. I would never be able to sell this inventory for a bicycling magazine being sold out for 2 years.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: That was some of the magic that happened during that time. A lot of, uh, when carbon hit, it just, it hit hard and it changed the industry and it changed where and how bikes were made. Um, and it was a, it was a boom moment for us at Orbea, for sure. We, we, we, we went through the roof, you know, because we were there.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: One of the very first real product and real availability. Yeah. So I had a great run with, with Orbea. Um, they acquired the rest of the company from us in 2014. And then I decided that, um, I wanted to get into manufacturing because I noticed at that moment in 2014, 15 and 16, that everybody was sort of cooking in the same kitchen, you know?
[00:05:00] - (): Tony Karklins: It was, everything started to look alike again, and there was just different colors and graphics and marketing campaigns. So I said, okay, if I'm gonna stay in the bike industry, I wanna get into manufacturing.
**** - (): Craig Dalton: That seems like a big leap, right? So you a big
**** - (): Tony Karklins: leap. But you know, I, I, I, I'd been in the industry a long time, been in a lot of the factories.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: I mean, I saw it, you know? Yeah. I'm not an engineer. Um, now I almost am. But um, at that point, I just, I knew that, I knew that there was very little chance of success if you just went to Asia and did the same thing again. Yeah, I've seen too many people try to start their own brand, um, based on just desire of having a brand and no real tech or no real, you know, capabilities and, and they all kind of petered out the same way.
**** - (): Craig Dalton: And did you see the opportunity being, Hey, if I stand up a manufacturing facility, I've got enough connection in the industry that some brand may want to come to me for manufacturing. I'm thinking back to like. Frank the welder shop and you'd have,
**** - (): Tony Karklins: you know, interested in OEM business because you know, you, you do all the work and you get none of the room.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: Yeah.
[00:06:00] - (): Craig Dalton: Can't explain to anybody what you do for a living because you can't point to anything.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: Yeah. I was more interested in. Okay. I think the way that this can really work is if you take it from raw material all the way through to the sand. Right. Okay. Do you want all of that? Because, you know, when you have a bike made in Asia, you have it made in a carbon fiber factory and then they send it to a paint factory and then they send it to an assembly factory and then they put it into a box and they ship it into the United States.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: So you pay duties and freight and tariff and all that stuff. And then it's sold to a distributor and then it's sold to a retailer and then it's sold to the consumer. And, you know, you have this, You know, no one has any real piece of the pie, you know, the only people making the money here are the shipping companies and the government, you know, let's break that.
[00:07:00] - (): Tony Karklins: Let's see if we can take it from raw material all the way, you know, through selling it to a dealer. Okay. And so, uh, after my time with Orbea, I went to work with a group in California that was attempting to do this, uh, with golf technology, a lot of golf production in the San Diego area. And I learned, you know, during that year that.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: Very difficult to do manufacturing in Southern California. It was, it was a great, great learning moment for it. Um, and so did not work there, but after I departed, I was able to acquire the Guru Bicycle Factory. In Montreal. Gotcha. Okay. We located in Arkansas, got some government grants and brought in some investors for this.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: And we, uh, the project there, we created this company called HIE Villa, which was going to be, you know, mass production of prepreg carbon fiber bicycles, you know, made the same way that the best bike brands were making them in Asia, but making them here.
**** - (): Craig Dalton: And when you, did you not acquire the Guru brand, you just acquired the means of manufacturing at that point?
**** - (): Craig Dalton: I just acquired the manufacturing assets. Yeah. And was that just, uh, tooling, machinery, et cetera, or were you getting
[00:08:00] - (): Tony Karklins: Messiness, cutting tables, it was everything you needed to do. Gotcha. I mean, everything, you know, and so it gave us a great, it was a great start. Uh, it was a beautiful project. We launched, you know, six Cycleworks brand, and that hit hard.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: You know, it resonated just perfectly at that moment because it truly made an America product. Um, we, we did it right. We did it well, um, beautiful project and that company got acquired by the Walton family. In one of their groups, uh, that owns, uh, the Rafa
**** - (): Craig Dalton: cycling brand and then was that acquiring the brand and the manufacturing
**** - (): Tony Karklins: facility?
**** - (): Tony Karklins: They took it all and they did that a little rock and they put it in Northwest Arkansas. And now it's part of the, uh, the cycling empire that they're building. Sure. And so I stayed here in Little Rock after that and looking for my next opportunity. And during the early stages of the pandemic, I learned that the Rossignol group who had recently acquired time was looking for a new owner for it.
[00:09:00] - (): Tony Karklins: And I'm like, wow, I really want that because I want, I want their factory. Cause I knew that they had the oldest and the largest scale carbon fiber bike
**** - (): Craig Dalton: factory in Europe. Can we, can we pause for a second, Tony, and just explain the history very briefly of the time brand? Cause it's not lost on me, like how important that had been over the last 30 years, but I'd just love to hear your words and understanding of like how time fit into the bike industry.
[00:10:00] - (): Tony Karklins: Yeah. So time, uh, was established in France in 1987 and Roland Catan was the founder of it. And Roland Catan married a woman whose father was the inventor of the modern ski bike. And he owned a company called Look. Yep. Sure. And Look had just introduced a bicycle pedal that was clipless. And Roland was around this and he was kind of part of the company.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: And I guess at some point there was some family dispute that happened, because Roland believed that a clip in bicycle pedal needed to have some kind of rotation. Because if you were locked into one place, You would have ankle, knee, some kind of problems. And so, I guess the father in law didn't like that.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: And Roland left look, went across the street and opened time. Amazing. With a clipless pedal that had rotation.
**** - (): Craig Dalton: This is filling in so many gaps for me. As I mentioned offline, I had a friend who was like a die hard time pedal fan. And like the ski binding technology, I'm now all visualizing it in my head.
[00:11:00] - (): Tony Karklins: And so I don't know how, I don't know how Roland's wife made this all work with the family. They split and they made it together. Um, and you know, Time, you know, was a very fast moving brand globally the second he did it. It was styled perfectly. Everybody believed in the rotation. They were off to the races.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: Um, then somewhere in the late eighties to maybe 92, 93, Roland became friends with some of the people that had started TVT carbon fiber and TVT was, you know, uh, French company. That had done some of the very first, you know, carbon tube, aluminum lug bikes, they were briefly in the tour, but the technology wasn't really stable enough yet to really have true tour riders on it.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: But you, I think you saw maybe some of the Greg Lamont years, he might be on a special carbon fiber bike with some sponsors name on it. That was a TVT thing. So the time people got involved with him. Um, and they opened up a project to make a carbon fiber fork because they saw the problem in the bike industry of all these lightweight aluminum bikes using steel forks, or sometimes even aluminum forks, which were super jarring.
[00:12:00] - (): Tony Karklins: Yeah. And they believed that they could, they could make a better riding aluminum bike by doing a carbon fork. So Mario Cipollini, Marco Pantani, anybody of who's who in that, you know, in that era, whatever bike brand they were riding, it had a Time fork on it, and from what I've been told, uh, they were making about 100, 000 carbon fiber forks here.
[00:13:00] - (): Tony Karklins: I mean, they, they were, they were the player there. Then, of course, Look got into the fork business as well. Those 2 really kind of hit it, you know. So time then moved into bicycle manufacturing in the late 90s. They want to do a full carbon fiber bike. Um, and then in the early 2000s, they signed with this little team called Quickstep and we had writers like Tom Boonen and Paolo Bettini, uh, you know, and they won the Olympics and they won the world championships and they won Paris Roubaix and they were just, they were killing it in 2004, five and six, I mean, they were, they were the, you know, pinnacle of technology really being made in Europe when everybody else had just left for China, they were killing it.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: Um, and then. I guess from what I've been told, the Pro Tour got really expensive when the big American brands came in. You know, when you saw Specialized come in and take over Quickstep, and Cannondale was in there first, I think, Giant got in there, uh, Trek obviously got in there, and so Time became a brand that, you know, truly couldn't afford the Tour de France anymore.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: And so, uh, they Kept developing products, they believed in their resin transfer molding technology. They believe in European manufacturing, but, you know, they started to kind of hit harder times, maybe in 2012, 13, 14, and then Roland passed away on a bike ride. In 2000, late 2015, early 2016. Oh, man.
[00:14:00] - (): Craig Dalton: And did they ever, did they ever diversify into mountain bike products or did they always stay focused on the road sport?
**** - (): Craig Dalton: No,
**** - (): Tony Karklins: there's, you know, we, we have all the historical stuff and, you know, they did a couple little things and they made their own wheels for one model, but they didn't really ever get in the wheel business. I've got a few time carbon fiber handlebars. I don't believe that a real mountain bike frame was ever truly produced by them, but he was pretty true to the cause.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: I mean, he, he was a road cyclist. He was a drop bar cyclist. He, um, he, he, he protected his brand really well. Yeah. Yeah. He, he didn't, he didn't go with, you know, the, the, the trend of the week, like some of the bike companies do.
**** - (): Craig Dalton: And then did the Rossignol group, uh, purchase it after his passing
**** - (): Tony Karklins: then? They purchased it, you know, so he passed away.
[00:15:00] - (): Tony Karklins: Company was in shambles because he was the race car driver of the company. Right. Yeah. And, and so big problems there, but Rossignol stepped in. Um, they. They did an acquisition of everything, they reinvested in the company, um, they built out both the France factory and the sub factory that's in Slovakia.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: Um, and they were really building it for big growth. And I, I believe their plan was to, to put, um, they, they bought a few other bike brands as well and to inject those brands into their ski dealerships for summer business in Europe. I think it was their master plan.
**** - (): Craig Dalton: The plan that many a bike shop owner, many a bike brand has theorized over the years will work perfectly.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: It makes sense. But at the end of the day, you know, a consumer purchasing a 10, 000 bike doesn't want to buy from the ski shop. Yeah. I know. Yeah, nothing against the ski shops, but he wants, he wants to buy it from a passionate, you know, cycling store. So that didn't work so well. And then the pandemic hit, and when the pandemic hit, that's when we were told, Hey, good time.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: Rosalind was looking for a new owner from time. And I
[00:16:00] - (): Craig Dalton: interrupted you right when you were saying what really attracted you to the opportunity was the fact that there was a factory involved.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: And that's how we got it from Roil because we were the people that wanted the factory. I think there were a lot of people that wanted the time brand, right?
**** - (): Tony Karklins: Sure. Because there's a playbook. You take a great brand like that, a Halo European brand, you go to Asia, you build a new bike line, boom, you're done. And Ros, I don't think, wanted that to happen. You know, it's proud French brand. There are a lot of people working in factories. Um, they wanted, they wanted somebody to come in and take over the factory.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: I had just come through this project at Allied and lived in a prepreg factory. So I'm like, I want that factory, you know? Yeah.
**** - (): Craig Dalton: And you were mentioning offline, some of the nuances in the approach prepreg versus another way of manufacturing that attracted you to the
**** - (): Tony Karklins: time process. I knew what their tech was, but I had never been in their building previously.
[00:17:00] - (): Tony Karklins: And, and I knew the quality that was coming out of that. And so when, when we were able to acquire that, you know, at the same time, SRAM bought the pedal and shoe business. So we actually broke time. Into two pieces. Okay. So that was a perfect fit for SRAM to take that and then we didn't have to be in the pedal business.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: Did
**** - (): Craig Dalton: that just sort of happen to work out timing wise that I imagine they wanted to sell the whole thing in one fell swoop.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: I think they wanted to sell the whole thing in one fell swoop, but it's hard to do that because those two businesses are totally different, totally different factory, totally different customers, totally different rules.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: And so when SRAM stepped in with interest in that, it was perfect. And that's when it all kind of came together. And, uh, you know, it was a strange time because when we bought it in the pandemic, we couldn't even go to the factory for a visit. Because this is what Americans travel into Europe. We were on lockdown.
[00:18:00] - (): Tony Karklins: Yeah. So a lot of faith in there. And luckily we got a good investment group behind this that also believed in, in us, in the vision of what we wanted to do with time. Uh, and we pulled it off. So we bought it because we wanted that factory. We wanted that technology. You know, what, what Roland spent, you know, 25 years developing in that factory is resin transfer molding and lost wax cores.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: And that is the way that aerospace and automotive carbon fiber products are made. You know, the bike industry is prepreg. Prepreg is a very interesting way to make products. And there's some neat things you can do with prepreg. But automotive and aerospace would never use prepreg. Because resin transfer molding gives you complete control of the structure.
[00:19:00] - (): Tony Karklins: You end up with a, with a structure that has zero voids in it. It's cosmetically perfect. And that you can blend whatever you want to into the carbon fiber sleeves because they're not impregnated. And so, this one factory that they had built in Slovakia initially as a fork factory had built its way up to being the largest carbon fiber bike factory in Europe.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: And with the technology that Was above and beyond what anybody else in the world was doing. When
**** - (): Craig Dalton: you talk about that, and I'm sure it's difficult to express it in layman's terms, but when you think about the different design opportunities and possibilities with prepreg versus this type of carbon manufacturing, what type of opportunities for performance, as it translates to riders, does this technology lend itself to?
**** - (): Tony Karklins: You know, the biggest difference in resin transfer molding, Is it's not, it's not bladder mold. There's no internal pressure there that is squeezing all those layers of carbon fiber into one structure. So, in resin transfer molding, we start with the wax core. It is, you know, an exact interior core to the structure.
[00:20:00] - (): Tony Karklins: And then we wrap the carbon fiber sleeves over those doors. We set them in the tools. When, and when we close the tool, you have steel surface on the outside, hard wax surface on the inside. So two hard surfaces, and then you inject the resin and the hardener through the tool at the same time under high pressure.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: And when you do that, the resin fills 100 percent of all available space between the two hard surfaces. So you can't have any leaks. That's why airplane wings are resin transfer molded, because you can't have a void in an airplane wing. Because a
**** - (): Craig Dalton: void is a, is a weaker part of the part, if a
**** - (): Tony Karklins: void exists. A void is a bubble, it's a fold, it's a wrinkle, it's a drip.
[00:21:00] - (): Tony Karklins: It's, you know, because when you're dealing with prepreg, you have this hard tool on the outside. You have, A bladder on the inside, and then you have all these sticky layers, somebody's hand put together, kind of like, almost like paper mache in some ways, right? And each one of those is a sticky, challenging layer.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: These will go on just right, right? And then you put that into the tool, and you blast this pressure on the inside, and it just squeezes the heck out of everything. And that's the structure you're left with. But resin transfer molding, hard tool on the inside, hard on the outside, and a flow through of the resin that makes it a perfect structure.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: And so when you have that, you have a product that is a stronger and more durable product for sure. Less chance of anything happening to the structure for sure. Also cosmetically perfect. So now you can actually show fibers, which you don't see on carbon fiber bikes anymore, because prepreg structures are ugly.
[00:22:00] - (): Tony Karklins: So you have to paint them, make them look nice. But on this, it comes out perfect. And even the inside of the structure, the inside of our bikes is as cosmetically perfect as the outside because it can only be that. Yeah. And then in these braids, you know, a lot of these things have 244 different, you know, threads through we can.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: blend in any modulus that we want. We can mix in fibers like Dyneema. We can mix in Vectran fibers. We, we have unlimited recipe of what we could do for the actual sleeves
**** - (): Craig Dalton: themselves. And what, what are those additional elements? What are the benefits of those additional
**** - (): Tony Karklins: elements? Everybody's familiar with the different moduluses, right?
**** - (): Tony Karklins: You can take out weight, you can add stiffness. You know, the one that we've had the most fun with the last two years is bringing Dyneema into it. Dyneema has got kind of a wonder material that really came out of the sailing industry. It's a polypropylene fiber that's lighter than carbon fiber, which you can't destroy.
[00:23:00] - (): Tony Karklins: So we can weave this into critical areas where there could be catastrophic failure. And this will keep that structure from ever breaking. And so we brought that in a lot on our 1st gravel bike. We introduced that indoor
**** - (): Craig Dalton: structure. Yeah, I was going to say that seems like a natural
**** - (): Tony Karklins: thing. We're using more and more and more with it.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: And you can't use too much with it because if you use. Two, if your ratio of Dyneema to the carbon fiber is too high, the bike doesn't ride right. Dyneema doesn't have the riding characteristics of a high modulus carbon fiber. But when you put it in small doses in strategic places, you've made a stronger and safer problem.
**** - (): Craig Dalton: Got it. Now, I appreciate this detour into the tech because we were going to come back around to it in the gravel bike, but I think it sets the stage really nicely. So if we're going back chronologically. 2020, 2021, it seems like you've acquired the, the, the brand, the facility were models continuing to be pushed out at that point.
**** - (): Craig Dalton: And then how, when did you sort of reintroduce what I imagine to be your new vision for time bicycles out there in the world?
[00:24:00] - (): Tony Karklins: You know, it, it played out differently than we thought because when we bought the company, our plan was we were going to take it to ground and we were going to redo everything and we were going to relaunch it perfectly and we bought it in that moment in the pandemic where we were all going to die, you know, there was this moment.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: It was doom and gloom. And then a couple of months later, everybody decided to go buy a bike. Yeah.
**** - (): Craig Dalton: We're not, we're not dead. So we might as well go ride a bike.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: Yeah, we're not dead. So let's go buy a new bike. And so our plan was kind of spoiled because we were one of the only operational factories in Europe.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: Everybody needed everything from us. And I'm like, no, we're going to be redoing all this stuff. They're like, no, we need bikes now. So we turned it on hard. You know, we turned that factory on harder than it had ever
**** - (): been
**** - (): Craig Dalton: turned on. And were you kicking out road bikes at that point,
**** - (): Tony Karklins: presumably? We were kicking out road bikes like crazy.
[00:25:00] - (): Tony Karklins: We were trying to get to gravel, but we had just tons and tons and tons of orders for road bikes because, you know, you couldn't get them. They were stuck in Asia. People were sold out. Yeah. You know, and you know, we're a factory that we make them every single day, you know? So the first 18 months of us owning this company, it was like we were trying to repair the plane mid flight.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: You know, we were just going crazy. You know, we're trying to get to new. Because Rossignol didn't really push new because they were in the selling phase. Right. So you're not going to invest in products like that. And so we had slightly dated product and we needed as much of it as possible right now for sales while we're redeveloping.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: So just now, you know, in 2024, we're back to our plan of, of key new model introductions,
**** - (): Craig Dalton: you know. Yeah. You know, during that timeframe with everything running so fast, it sounds like you wouldn't have even had time to rethink market positioning the brand. It was more people love time. It's a storied brand as we've just talked about, and people are going to buy the product.
**** - (): Craig Dalton: The
[00:26:00] - (): Tony Karklins: second we bought it, man, the love just kind of flowed in through emails, you know, everybody's like, Oh God, thank God, you know, cycling people have the time brand, you know, and, and yeah, the love for the time brand is amazing. I can't tell you how many people have sent an email with a picture of their Time VRX, VXRS, Paolo Bettini edition to say, I own a hundred bikes and this is my all time favorite.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: You know, people love it. I mean, Roland did a great job building a really beautiful, he really, he, he always. Did the right thing. Yeah. Always took the high road. You know, not a lot of people in the bike industry can really say that.
**** - (): Craig Dalton: For sure. You mentioned Roland's love of the sport of road cycling, and it doesn't sound like prior to you much, if any, emphasis was put on the gravel market.
**** - (): Craig Dalton: When you decided to move in, or correct me if I'm wrong, certainly.
[00:27:00] - (): Tony Karklins: Well, there were some weird things in there. Like one of the things, when we did the acquisition and we got the trademark, Roland owns the global trademark for all. Okay, we were looking at that. Oh, my God. What was he going to do with that?
**** - (): Tony Karklins: You know, he saw something, you know, maybe he was maybe had a pedal plan for it. But, you know, he, you know, he was pretty deep in the Belgian site. Okay. And so he, he was, he was working on something for sure.
**** - (): Craig Dalton: Gotcha. You weren't handed any gravel models, so it took you, took you to what, 2022 to introduce the first, uh, ADHX?
**** - (): Tony Karklins: Yeah, we did. We introduced that, um, midway through 2022.
**** - (): Craig Dalton: Now I'm curious, like obviously you had your imprints on that model with you alongside your designers. How did you envision the gravel market at that point? Times the, the time, the people who are appreciating the time brands vision for what a time gravel bike would look like.
[00:28:00] - (): Tony Karklins: Well, that was our first rule with the ADHX is we wanted to make a bike that would appeal to time. Right. We weren't going to go out and make some bike that had frays on forks everywhere and for camping on it. That's not time, right? You need to go buy a Surly if you're going to do that. We wanted to do an all road bike.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: For a time and we wanted to also make sure that it worked with all road drive trains. Because we want to be a multi surface road bike. Gotcha. We call it fast gravel. Um, and and we introduced that before a lot of these wide drive train 1 by systems really became legitimized and, you know, our requirement is let's get biggest tire possible in here.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: It will still take 52 chain ring. You know? Yeah. And we'll not have an obscenely long chainstay. So we'll ride like a road bike, but we'll allow you to do multi surface. Yeah.
[00:29:00] - (): Craig Dalton: I've had this conversation before where it's very interesting when you talk about constraints and what you're able to do. And as you're articulating the desire to have a 50 tooth chainring in there and ride a two by drivetrain and a road specific drivetrain, it's understandable where you end up spec wise.
**** - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. I
**** - (): Tony Karklins: mean, so that, that's, those are the limitations we put on it. And so then we launched it into the market. You know, and at that moment, anything, anybody launched into the market was going to do well because the market was just consuming all by itself. But quickly, we learned that nobody wanted our ADHX with a one by drive train.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: Everybody who was buying, because we made, we, we took an assumption that 50, 50, one by two by, you know, and it was 99 percent and 1 percent was the reality of after six months of this. So everybody, they were buying pure road groups and they were running. You know, 35, maybe 38 C tires.
**** - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. It's interesting when you think about that 2022 timeframe, because I do think the, the consumer base had started to really.
[00:30:00] - (): Craig Dalton: Sort of pick a camp if you will. And they were picking either I want a fast gravel bike or I want something more on the adventure side. And there were distinct camps starting to emerge even back then.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: Yeah, there were. And, uh, you know, so we got a lot of feedback maybe nine months after launch, but we can't get this 42 tire and everybody racing on unbound this year is running a 42.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: And then, you know, we were also at that moment where the interior rim widths were changing like crazy. Yeah, so even if you were putting a 38 seat tire on there, but this new wheel coming out from head has a 26 internal measurement. It was measuring a 42, you know, so we ran into that fun, but everybody else ran into that fun at the same time.
[00:31:00] - (): Tony Karklins: Yeah. So we decided that we would open the next project to do a wider. You know, tire version of the ADHX, um, because we thought that was truly where the market was moving to. And what we learned in all of that is it all just comes down to the drivetrain. And the second we launched the ADHX45 and we explained it was built for wide drivetrains and it was built for, you know, it won't take Ultegra, Dura Ace, Campagnolo drivetrains on there.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: That we had this boom of sales in our existing ADHX because all of a sudden people really understood. Yeah, this is this is as much of a multi surface bike as I can have and it'd be a road bike. This is really a pure gravel, right? And so for now, it's crystal clear. We didn't really expect that to happen.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: We assume the 45 was what everybody was going to want, but now it's crystallized for us where there are three for us. There's pure road. There is multi surface pass. Yeah. And there is. You know, I don't want to call it pure gravel, but wider tire
[00:32:00] - (): Craig Dalton: gravel. Yeah, it's a, it's a really interesting force and forcing function.
**** - (): Craig Dalton: Cause I think a lot of consumers develop a love and appreciation for a particular brand. And then, so they're in the time family, they're in the time world, and then they're looking at your two models and they're asking themselves, what type of gravel rider am I? Where, where do I live? What type of terrain am I on?
**** - (): Craig Dalton: And which one of these two models fits their riding style and ambitions.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: What I think we've learned is. It's more important around the drivetrain than it really is around three or four millimeter width change on the top. That's what the customer seems to really care about.
**** - (): Craig Dalton: Interesting. So on the, on the, the ADHX45, will that still run a 2x?
[00:33:00] - (): Tony Karklins: Yeah, it'll run a 2x, but you have to use a wide version of it. Okay. Yeah. So you're using these, these gear ratios that true road cyclists Don't really, they still want their 52 ring on there, right? Yeah. And when you move into the a H 45, you gotta deal with all, all the new systems from Shram and the new ones from the G Rx system.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: And it, it does, it does really seem to be that the 45 falls more to the MTB crowd and the A DHX falls more to the road cyclist. It just wants to do a little bit of ground. Yeah. As you and then, and then in Europe they use the A DHX. As the fat road tire. Okay.
**** - (): Craig Dalton: And what do you, does it ride sort of as if it say you have road tires on their 32s or 35s?
**** - (): Craig Dalton: Is it ride like an endurance road bike? Would you, would you suggest? That's
**** - (): Tony Karklins: where a lot of people have kind of put it. Yeah. You know, cause you can, you can build out, you know, with those Victoria 34 C tires and nice carbon wheels, you can have a, you know, 14 and a half pound 34 seat tire road bike. It's just super fun to ride.
[00:34:00] - (): Craig Dalton: Super fun to ride. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was just out with a buddy I hadn't seen in a while. And so he was like hardcore roadie and saw him rolled up on some 38 Cs, nice carbon wheels. And he was like, man, this bike is, he's like, it's a revelation. He's like, I've never been happier road riding than I have been on these 38 Cs.
**** - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, I love it. Super interesting. As you, you know, you had the the 80 HX out there in the market. Obviously, you were getting some feedback from riders that led to the tire and drive train decisions on the 45. Were there any other elements of the frame design that taking the opportunity to think? Hey, we're now getting 45s in there.
**** - (): Craig Dalton: People are going to take this on gnarlier terrain. Do we need to do anything different? Or was it really about upsizing and, you know, configuring the drive
**** - (): Tony Karklins: train? You know, when there were some people that were pushing us for adventure bikes and stuff, but it's just, we're, we're doing our best to stay true to time.
[00:35:00] - (): Tony Karklins: We're not an adventure bike company, we're a high performance carbon fiber bike company. We want to, we want to keep it that way. So I think, I think the 45, at least. What we see of today's gravel market is as far as we need to go, you know, because there are other things at the time brand needs to do. We know we have to get back into the aero road bike development and we have to get back into endurance road development.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: We've got other projects there. So I think that, you know, while we'll continue to evolve the ADA checks family, I think we sort of have our two models
**** - (): Craig Dalton: in there. Yeah. When you think about it, you mentioned sort of unbound. When you think about a competitive race bike, is there anything that The ADH X45 has that doesn't put it as a gravel race bike, other than the choice of drivetrain that you're, you have to
**** - (): Tony Karklins: make because it was, it was really built for that type of application.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: Yeah, it a go fast. You know, wide tire ground. Yeah. You know, it's, it's a race bike. I mean, we, we, we did some really tight tolerances on there. The things we had to do to get the chain stays, you know, in the seat too. And just, just to the point where they'd be right on the edge of giving the proper amount of clearance.
[00:36:00] - (): Tony Karklins: And, and, and truly be a high performance ride. We, we couldn't have done it any tighter than we did. Yeah.
**** - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. And when you think about the ideal rider for these types of bikes, um, are you, you know, are the head tubes taller or are they, or are they still sort of real Euro race style
**** - (): Tony Karklins: geometry? We are upper middle there on this particular family when we, well, when we bought time, there was no integrated front ends at all.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: So we had to, the first project we did was to do, to bring integration in when we did that to all of our existing product line, we increased that head to height just a bit more for the, for the mature American market.
**** - (): Craig Dalton: And when, with integration, you're talking about
**** - (): Tony Karklins: specialized Roubaix, we didn't, we didn't go there, but we brought it to a point because I, I hate premium bikes with three or four spacers in there.
[00:37:00] - (): Tony Karklins: Or, or an upstem. Yeah. So we built it, you know, we engineered it to sell and be looked at.
**** - (): Craig Dalton: Okay. And with that integration, you're referring to putting the cables inside the bar and through the headset and all that stuff. We got a moment to
**** - (): Tony Karklins: tweak all the hit tube heights when we did that. Yeah. And so we, we, we took, we took benefit.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: We cleaned that. Got it. Because, you know, traditionally time Short head to bike. I mean, it was the, a lot of the design was led by the racers who all want these head tubes that are this tall. Yeah. You know, nobody who's actually buying a bike and ever ride, you know,
**** - (): Craig Dalton: exactly. Um, what, what's sort of next for time and gravel this year?
**** - (): Craig Dalton: I imagine, you know, there's still a lot of people who haven't gotten in front of a time. Gravel bike. How do people find
**** - (): Tony Karklins: them for time right now is, um, our expansion into manufacturing in the United States. Okay. That's our next thing. So we announced, uh, middle of last year that we acquired a facility in South Carolina and it's in Spartanburg County.
**** - (): Craig Dalton: Was it outside the bike industry? Something doing carbon fiber in another field?
[00:38:00] - (): Tony Karklins: No. Um, but it is inside the bubble that BMW built in North America and BM W's carbon fiber technology is exactly the same as times. Got it. So it's resin transfer molding. So in this one little region of South Carolina, they have the entire global supply chain specific to exactly what time does.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: Amazing. So we acquired a factory there in this little town called Landrum. It's 140, 000 square foot facility on 30 acres, right at the base of the Blue Ridge Mountains. Really cool area. Uh, about, about 30, 45 minutes from Nashville, North Carolina. And we are. Um, throughout 2024, moving process by process over, so we'll have a second factory here to support the United States.
[00:39:00] - (): Tony Karklins: And at the same time, as we're installing our processes into that factory, we're getting a lot of assistance from, um, the state of South Carolina and the University of Clemson, and a lot of the, um, automotive, Development tools that were put into place inside of BMW. They do things with resin transfer molding that were light years beyond what Roland ever thought about when he was building his factories in France and Slovakia.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: And so we've been for the last six months doing proof of concept manufacturing there about, um, high pressure resin transfer molding. We're similar technology to what we do in our factories now. But under three to five times pressure, and that has the potential to really, uh, has the potential to revolutionize bicycle manufacturing, but certainly advance our product to a point where beyond what we ever thought possible.
[00:40:00] - (): Tony Karklins: When you, when you are able to do resin transfer molding at 35, 45, 50 bar, that is incredibly high pressure. It's going to make a A structure that is thinner, lighter, and stronger, and also more beautiful than anybody's ever been able to pull out of a carbon fiber tool. So we are fully focused on that development and deploying that technology in our new South Carolina factory.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: By the end of
**** - (): Craig Dalton: this year, that's so exciting to bring back more manufacturing in the United States. And as we heard,
**** - (): Tony Karklins: that's the real thing, you know, because the automobile industry invested a lot in resin transfer from BMW, McLaren, Aston Martin, Lexus. Audi, I mean, resin transfer molding used in all those brands significantly.
[00:41:00] - (): Tony Karklins: Polestar, Volvo. And to take benefit of what they've done there and apply it to bike under the Time brand name and being true to, you know, what Roland Katana actually wanted to build out of Time. That's, that's our special project that we're really excited about. I think that I'm a few months away from inviting people such as yourself into the kitchen over there so you can see firsthand what what's actually about that.
**** - (): Craig Dalton: I love it. Book me a date. Maybe in July. My sister just moved to Asheville. So I'm planning a trip over there at some point
**** - (): Tony Karklins: 3045. I
**** - (): Craig Dalton: love it. I love it. I love this journey. You've taken us on in this conversation. Love the time brand. The story very much lands with me. Just the sort of. Race perspective of the bicycles and the expansion of the ADHX to the ADX45 just to give riders kind of what they're looking for in terms of the versatility.
**** - (): Craig Dalton: In the time models. So, um, yeah, super appreciate it. And for customers looking to get in touch with the brand or get, get a foot over one of these, what's the best way for riders to get in front of a time bicycle? You know,
[00:42:00] - (): Tony Karklins: we, our website and the team that we have supporting all lines of communication through that social media.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: We're very easy. Okay. I mean, ping us ping us on Facebook, Instagram, through our website, we have a team here ready to help. And
**** - (): Craig Dalton: are you selling direct to consumer at this
**** - (): Tony Karklins: point? We sell every way possible. We sell direct to consumer and we've got around 150 retailers in the United States. Uh, we've got distributors in 18 countries around the world.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: Um, so yeah, we're, we're pretty much available in all key markets.
**** - (): Craig Dalton: Amazing. Thanks again for the time, Tony.
**** - (): Tony Karklins: My pleasure.
-
In this episode, we sit down with cinematographer and director Shannon Vandivier to discuss his work on the Life Time Grand Prix series "Call of a Life Time." Shannon shares his journey into the world of filmmaking and storytelling, influenced by his father's career as a photojournalist. He explains how he approaches the editing process as a second director and the importance of having a clear vision for the story. Shannon also delves into the challenges of filming off-road racing events and the strategies his team employs to capture the essence of each race. He highlights the importance of building trust with the athletes and creating a connection that allows for vulnerability and authentic storytelling. Throughout the conversation, Shannon emphasizes the goal of the series: to showcase the dedication and inspiring stories of off-road athletes and to foster a sense of fandom within the community.
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About the Guest(s):Shannon Vandivier is a cinematographer, director, and camera operator based in Austin, Texas. With a passion for storytelling and a background in photography, Shannon has honed his skills in capturing powerful imagery and using it to tell compelling stories. He started his own company in 2013 and has since worked with notable clients such as Netflix, BBC, and PBS. Shannon's work can be seen in various projects, including the Lifetime Grand Prix series "Call of a Lifetime."
Key Takeaways: Shannon Vandivier's passion for storytelling and capturing powerful imagery stems from his father's career as a photojournalist. The editing process in filmmaking is akin to being a second director, and it requires a clear vision for the story. Filming off-road racing events presents unique challenges, and Shannon's team employs various strategies to capture the essence of each race. Building trust with the athletes is crucial for creating authentic and vulnerable storytelling. The goal of the Lifetime Grand Prix series "Call of a Lifetime" is to showcase the dedication and inspiring stories of off-road athletes and foster a sense of fandom within the community. Notable Quotes: "The power of editing comes with a clear vision. You don't know how your story is changing unless you know what your story is." - Shannon Vandivier "The bike has always been the vehicle to fun. And as I've matured through life, I've continued to stay on the bike." - Shannon Vandivier "The reality is, editing is second directing. The power of editing comes with a clear vision." - Shannon Vandivier Resources: Shannon Vandivier's website: shannonvandivier.com Lifetime Grand Prix series "Call of a Lifetime" on YouTube: youtube.com/lifetimeAutomated transcription, please excuse the errors:
[TRANSCRIPT]
[00:00:00] - (): Craig Dalton (host): Welcome to the show. How you doing, man?
[00:00:04] - (): Shannon Vandivier: Man, I'm glad to be here. I'm glad to be with you.
[00:00:07] - (): Craig Dalton (host): I'm excited to have this conversation. It's probably a, an outlier. If I think back to the catalogs of conversations I have, it's usually athletes, event organizers, and event producers. So you're my first cinematographer, director, camera guy.
**** - (): Super excited to have this conversation. Cause I think a lot of us have seen your work in Certainly Lifetime, uh, Call of a Lifetime Season 1, which followed the Lifetime Grand Prix. But after looking at your website, I think there's probably a bunch of other things that we've probably seen of you over
[00:00:41] - (): Shannon Vandivier: the years.
**** - (): Thank you. Well, maybe, maybe not. It depends. Uh, it's a big world out there. There's a lot of content, but I certainly am honored, you know, um, to be your first. Uh, camera nerd and a storyteller on your podcast. So for those of you listening who are hoping to learn anything about power numbers or Watts or course design, uh, you will be disappointed.
**** - (): Uh, but if you want to learn about storytelling and how incredibly, um, challenging it has been, and at the same time, rewarding, um, to spend a year at this point, two years with all the top off road athletes, um, in North America and now also internationally. You're in the right spot and I will, I will tell all right now.
**** - (): I'm
[00:01:26] - (): Craig Dalton (host): excited to get into some of those challenges. Shannon, just to set the stage, where, where are you located and what's your relationship been to the bike?
[00:01:36] - (): Shannon Vandivier: Um, let's see here. Most I'm 36 years old, born in 87 and, um, I was born here in Austin, Texas. I'm currently in Austin, Texas. Um, it's a great base camp and we have good airport hub.
**** - (): So I've never found an excuse to leave other than maybe my draw to the mountains. Um, and so, you know, like most nineties kids, like the bike was the vector to get around the neighborhood, and it's always been about. Um, for me, the bike has always just been the vehicle to fun. And as I've kind of matured through life, I've continued to kind of stay on the bike.
**** - (): Um, mountain biking to me, um, has become my favorite way to process. Even before this podcast, I went and spent an hour on the bike, just getting into a bit of a flow state and just getting my mind channeled in the right way. I do a lot of my riding, um, believe it or not. Use voice memos for that. But a lot of my thinking and processing on the bike, um, as it specifically rates, relates to call of a lifetime.
**** - (): But yeah, I think the bike is certainly a relevant character in my life. Um, and definitely was the reason why I was even interested in, um. Dipping my toe, which, which turned into diving off into the deep end, um, of creating content and storytelling in this space.
[00:03:01] - (): Craig Dalton (host): How did you find your way to a camera in the first place?
[00:03:04] - (): Shannon Vandivier: Ah, now that's a good question. So my dad was a photojournalist, and I grew up in a house that was covered in, um, film negative slides. And slideshow reels, and the smell of rolled film in the freezer as you were like sifting through to go find your toaster strudels or whatever. Um, and so like, I think I was five when my dad stuck his first hand me down in my hands.
**** - (): He would like sit me on the curb and as cars drove by, you know, I would earn new rolls of film if I got like cars in focus as I panned with him going by. I remember that specifically as a memory. And yeah, just, you know, my dad is, I've always been against flying, uh, airline travel. We always road tripped everywhere and we were always going somewhere.
**** - (): So I spent a lot of time traveling the world. Um, and controversially, I think I was like 12, 13 years old, you know, when my dad was taking me on shoots with him that maybe were like considered conflict zones, like still don't know, but like in, um, in a really unique way, I had a father who just really was passionate about using a lens to tell stories.
**** - (): He was a still photographer and, um, from a young age, he was just passionate about teaching me the power of the lens and the power of creating imagery and using that imagery to capture a moment in time that tells an important story. And as a journalist, um, you know, he saw himself as a responsible party and keeping politicians accountable and, um, corporations accountable.
**** - (): And he's. He still, to this day, um, heartbreakingly, probably, sees journalism as the means at which we keep society on track, um, and the truth in, in the public square. And so I've always had a value for storytelling in that context. And um, And yeah, and through, through certain life circumstances, I think I've particularly given an empathetic, um, perspective on life.
**** - (): Um, and you know, I, we had a tragedy in my family. I, we lost my youngest brother when I was nine and. Um, you know, there were some hard years there, but where, where it landed me was, um, man, life is special, and there are some really important stories to be told, and it's really important, um, and I love the idea, I should say this, I love the idea of a camera, and, um, and a lens being the vector to creating an introspective revelation in somebody, right?
**** - (): And it's this really unique thing That camera and storytelling and filmmaking can do, right? It can compress time in a way where we feel like we can learn a life's worth of lessons from somebody else in 90 minutes or 30 minutes. Um, and I, and sometimes that feels like magic to me. Um, of course we don't have the scar tissue of experience to ingrain those life lessons and anchor into our life, but at the same time, they can, they can be seeds.
**** - (): That will one day maybe blossom. And so, um, I saw it through my father growing up. I saw how his imagery impacted people. And, you know, I, I always, I always respected that. And I'm really proud that I get to follow. In a sense, my dad never did any filmmaking, but I get to follow in his footsteps. And, um, and so that's kind of what led to me to where I am now.
**** - (): I started my company back in 2000 and 13 and started Get to play with real clients in 2016, um, I've been, uh, won some awards and been featured on, you know, yeah, we've got, you can go check out. It's weird talking about yourself, right? And so there's a lot of things we've done out there and I've gotten to work for Netflix and BBC and PBS and, you know, all the big names out there.
**** - (): I'm honored to continue to work with them. And, um, I, I just, it's not about the, who I'm working for. It's about the, what I'm creating. And so that's, that's my guiding beacon. That's what pushes me forward is the, what I'm creating.
[00:07:15] - (): Craig Dalton (host): Amazing. Thanks for all that insight into your backstory. I'm curious, you know, your father obviously instilled a love of still photography and while, you know, someone picking up a phone or a camera today.
**** - (): Video is the obvious medium. Was there a point in your. Childhood, going into college, what have you, that you decided photography is great, but video will allow me to express some of the storytelling elements that I'm so passionate about?
[00:07:45] - (): Shannon Vandivier: Yeah, it's a great question because no one asks that question. You know, um, I was frustrated with still photography.
**** - (): You know, it's what I always had in front of me. And it's, I always, like, my dad used to have this drill with me where he would hand me magazines. This is before the computer, right? So, like, he would hand me magazines, a pair of stickers, and some tape. And I had, I have still to this day, I probably dig them up, I have these spiral binders.
**** - (): And he told me, son, you need to train your mind's eye. And he would make me go cut out. Pictures from magazines, stacks of magazines that, um, that I liked to train what, what I liked. And I always remember just, like, flipping through these magazines and cutting these pictures out and pasting them in my, my spiral notebook and training my mind's eye.
**** - (): And I always just, like, remember feeling like, man, like, I don't fully understand this image. Like, it's a cruel image. But, like, I want to know everything that happened. Like, it could be a Formula one car, you know, like on two wheels about to flip over. And I'm like, did it flip over? And I just remember thinking and always feeling this wall with still photography.
**** - (): Now I'm still a still photographer. I love still photography. It's a wonderful way to capture a moment, but in terms of the completeness of a story, in terms of how technology has advanced, there's no question that filmmaking and story is the ultimate form of storytelling. It's the most. Um, and so, yeah, it's, it's a good question.
**** - (): Yeah. Recall anybody asked me that question before.
[00:09:25] - (): Craig Dalton (host): So thinking about the amount of film that I've caught over, you know, over my life, my big problem has been the editing of it and I don't have any skills, Shannon. I'm going to be totally transparent with you on that, but I am curious about like the editing part, because, you know, you're capturing a lot of footage, regardless of what you're doing.
**** - (): But the editing is really key to making the storyline come through that you're trying to capture or that did happen out there. I'm curious. So you, you know, obviously you started to build the, the technical skills to shoot with your camera. What was that process like to become an editor that could get that end product that really conveyed?
**** - (): The stories either yourself or your clients were looking for.
[00:10:10] - (): Shannon Vandivier: Yeah. I mean, that's a great question. The reality is, is editing is second directing, you know, um, the power of editing comes with a clear vision. Reality is you don't know how your story is changing unless you know what your story is. And so, for me and my process, and like you, I don't have a ton of skill sets in life, but one of the things that is so hard for me to do is to walk into the field with a camera and not have a plan.
**** - (): If I don't know the story I'm going into the field to tell, then I don't know how it's changing in front of me. And if I don't know how it's changing in front of me, I don't know where to point the camera. But if I've defined my story and my characters, um, then As it's changing, as things are falling apart, is usually how you can define changing and filmmaking in the moment.
**** - (): Um, you can adapt and I think, you know, editing is like baking. If you don't have the right ingredients, you're not going to have a tasty product. You have to do it in the right order and you have to give respect to the ingredients and you have to have good quality ingredients. And so to say that, um, there's any one piece of, of creating a product, a film that is more important than the others.
**** - (): It's, it's just like taking a screw out of, um, a mechanical mechanism, like everything will fall apart and nothing will work if you don't have sometimes even the smallest thing. And so, um, our cinematographers, you know, we had up to 14 people in the field this year. We had helicopters, side by sides, motorcycles, um, multiple editors in the field.
**** - (): I mean, what we accomplished this year and the sheer manpower that I had to. bring together, unify and disseminate and share a vision with, um, and follow through with that vision on, um, that in itself became the greatest, um, challenge, but it also became the greatest reward. And why I believe when people see season two of Call of a Lifetime, they're going to see, well, if they watch season one, they're going to see a big improvement.
**** - (): They're going to see improvement in a few ways. And I'd love to jump into that, but. To be direct to your question, um, that editing process is a dance and I have a principal editor, his name is Blake Campbell. He's been working with me for eight years. I mean, his sole income comes from me and has for many, many years.
**** - (): And he is one of my key relationships that I carry within my company because, um, again, I call the editor the second director. I script ahead of time. I take a script after we've shot it, and our AEs will process everything we shot, which is a lot. I mean, I don't want to underestimate under, um, overstate this, but it's a lot of content around a hundred terabytes of footage we curated this season.
**** - (): Um, and I take that pre script and I marry it to what the theoretical versus the actual, what we went in to shoot versus what we actually shot. And I reshape a script and I put that in front of my editor. And then somehow he always makes it better. Better than what I envisioned, better than what I direct in the field.
**** - (): I mean, the sound design, the secret sauce of, you know, um, uh, trick editing and creating a visceral experience. And, you know, a lot of our style and a lot of the things that I think people will come to see. to know as our fingerprints as a company. Um, a lot of that has to do just with the consistency and you know, the, the, the experience that we have or that my editor has and spending time with me through the years and knowing, you know, kind of what I like.
**** - (): And when I shoot something, I shot it specifically to be edited a certain way. And now I don't even have to communicate that to them. So I can't take credit for it. I am a editor on this series, but I am by no means the principal editor. I'm just the guy that comes in and messes his timelines up, and sometimes it's easier to just jump in there and tear up a timeline than it is to actually just write it out on paper and have someone else go in there and try to read your brain.
**** - (): So read about it
[00:14:32] - (): Craig Dalton (host): to give the listener a little context for those of them who have not seen call of a lifetime series. One it's available freely on YouTube by the time this is broadcast season two will be available as well. What Shannon's been describing is not just a simple. Race storyline of a singular race, which may be a lot easier to tell.
**** - (): We're talking about the entirety of the lifetime Grand Prix season. So whether you're talking about season one or season two, I'm just Shannon, Shannon curious, you've got a bunch of athletes in the lifetime Grand Prix, both on the male and female side, you've got. You know, the, the favorites, you've got the dark horses, but there's plenty of them to choose from.
**** - (): How did you or, and or working with the lifetime team decide who to key in on? And you talked about having an idea of what that story arc might look like. How did you approach it at the beginning of the season and how did it evolve? And what were some of those monkey wrenches thrown into the plans?
[00:15:36] - (): Shannon Vandivier: Yeah.
**** - (): Great question. Um, yeah, golly, you're gonna make me think. Um, okay. So to, to fully answer that question, season one, I had no idea what I was doing. I mean, It was the classic scenario where Lifetime saw my accolades and experience as a film director, knew that I could execute, signed a contract with me to go in based on a concept that I presented, which was modeled after Drive to Survive, the Formula One series.
**** - (): Which really, I just saw as such a fascinating thing, like, blew my mind. I knew nothing about Formula One. I pressed episode one of that thing on Netflix when it first came out, and it instantly made me a fan of Formula One. And as a director, as a storyteller, I was, I had to dissect that. I was like, whoa, how did they brainwash me so quick?
**** - (): And I realized that the way they, what they did, and the model that they set forth, which was ingenious, was, we're human beings. We first and foremost relate to other human beings. So before I needed to understand the formula of model, you know, the racing and the point structure and the courses and which events are more important than other events and the key players first, I had to fall in love with character.
**** - (): I had to pick who my favorites were and they did such a good job doing that and pulling you into these characters, helping you understand what they're like, you know, what's at stake for them, what their goals are, what they have questions they're asking, you know, um, and that instantly grabbed me. And so I thought that's cool.
**** - (): And then I thought bike racing is confusing and, oh my gosh, the Grand Prix, which is what the series is. Built around is an easy to follow series, limited races, invite only, cash prize, easy to follow point structure. Sweet. We have all the right ingredients and most importantly, good characters. Um, and so athletes are always good characters because athletes are passionate and they're driven and focused, you know, um, and they're mental.
**** - (): Um, and, um, and so I thought, man, this is so cool. And so. Getting on back, getting back on track with your questions. Season one, I had no idea who to pick. I just started researching, started reading everything I could find. I started just at the advice of, um, Rebecca Sands and Michelle Duffy, um, and Ryan Cross, you know, who all work with Lifetime, um, and Kimo Seymour.
**** - (): Um, they started telling me, I just asked a lot of questions. I took the list of all the athletes and I just thought, what's this person about? What's this person about? Who are they from? Where, you know, who are they? Where are they from? What's interesting about them? You know, what have they been through in life?
**** - (): How did they get into racing? And so, man, season one was like this crash course in education. Um, and it really took me months to get educated on all of that. And. Somehow, in season one, we made mostly the right picks. I think we were like 7 for 10 out of men and women on who we filmed with and who ended up in the top 10.
**** - (): This season, that was a lot because of these relationships. That's one of the coolest parts. What I'm most rewarded in, in creating the series, is It's a trust thing. I mean, to tell a person's story requires time, face to face time. Um, they need to trust me. They need to know they can be vulnerable with me, and I'm not going to betray that trust.
**** - (): You know, if something happens, then I'm not going to throw them under the bus, you know? If it deviates from who their normal character is, what their normal persona is, if If they are naturally a bit of an against the grain person, then that's their character. That's journalistic to present them as who they are.
**** - (): And if they say it on camera, and that's, and they're not afraid to shy away from that, then I will embrace that, you know? Um, and so I think that that's where interesting storytelling comes, because that's what makes this community unique. And so this year, our character selection was a heck of a lot more Experientially educated because I have relationship with the athletes.
**** - (): I knew already who the returning athletes were and how good they were and what their strengths were. And then I really just had a light lift of researching the new athletes that were coming in. And a lot of us were asking the same questions. How's Matt Beers gonna do? You know, like, How is Danny? Who is Danny Shrosby?
**** - (): Like, is a UK national champ someone to keep your eye on? Turns out she's really powerful. You know, um, you know, you got Brendan Johnson. I mean, what a cool story. Like, man, he's one of my favorite storylines this year. I had so much fun spending all year long with him and having all these touch points and staying in constant communication and I can say right now, like he's a friend and I love that and I love that.
**** - (): I have that relationship with him because I'm rooting for him in many ways. You know, it's weird because I'm rooting for all of them anyways, because all of their stories mean something. It means something to the community that knows them, that surrounds them because there's not one of these athletes that isn't inspiring.
**** - (): And that's the coolest part, right? Right. Um, can't go to an NFL game and go jump on the field and hang out with the players and run your own drills. You know, you can't do that in basketball. You can't do that in golf. You can't do that really in anything except for cycling. You know, I mean, maybe I can't say that, right?
**** - (): Like maybe there's another one out there that you, this is runs a similar example, but that's the cool part about off road cycling is that these are mass participation events. Everyone gets to line up on the same day together with these athletes and then, um, so yeah, anyways, I think I just like really ramped into my own excited digression from that question you asked, but yeah, that's, that's
[00:21:30] - (): Craig Dalton (host): what we're all about, Shannon, happy, happy to have you.
**** - (): I
[00:21:33] - (): Shannon Vandivier: picked the athletes based off of who I thought was a really interesting person who I, when I scrolled through their Instagram, you know, was it just bikes? Was it just all bikes? Was, are they just nerding out in a bike park? Maybe that's the character I'm looking for. It's like, who's the nerdiest bike people?
**** - (): But then you got characters like Anna Yamauchi. Like, go scroll her Instagram. She's cool. She surfs. She bikes, you know. She's like always like, you know, in a van somewhere, you know, like, uh, Christopher Blevins, her boyfriend is also just like a really cool guy to follow on Instagram. And so it got me excited.
**** - (): I was like, you know, I don't know how she's going to do as a racer, but that doesn't matter. Because she's coming in on the back foot. She's coming in as a total green racer. She has never done a race series before. She's really very new to racing. And so she's got a lot to learn. And I love that perspective.
**** - (): I love that perspective of someone coming in that really, you have no idea how they're going to do. They don't have experience. They need to see the series with fresh eyes, which is an important perspective. Again, For those people who don't know much about racing. And so, you know, my selection of characters was strategic and it was about how I want to continue to evolve the story and, you know, who's got a story to tell and who's good on camera, you know, like that's also a thing.
**** - (): Like if you're awkward on camera, that doesn't make good storytelling. So, you know, like those are real investments. There's, I can't name any names, but. There's times when you invest time you have your crew get with people and film with them and you walk away thinking like, yeah, I don't think it even does them justice to use.
**** - (): Yeah, that's okay. You know, that's okay. You mentioned
[00:23:16] - (): Craig Dalton (host): that that trust that trust required to have a real authentic conversation and representation of the people you're filming. Do you feel like. You know, going into year two, because of the efforts in year one, that it was easier to kind of get embraced by the newer characters and the newer people you were working with.
[00:23:35] - (): Shannon Vandivier: Oh, my gosh. I mean, without a doubt, year one, we were trying to convince people like, Hey, this is gonna be cool. Yeah, we had season one, they already knew it was cool. They all love it, right? Like, maybe not all of them, you know, like, depending on who you are. And I think the reality is, is, Is we didn't have to prove ourselves.
**** - (): We didn't coming into walking into season two, people, people realize that this vision that we have with the series is about truly just building fandom. Just honestly, it was just like, what better way to say it? Like we want to make off road racers famous. Like we want people to know how cool they are and what, how much they sacrifice to do this thing that they do and how impressive it is.
**** - (): Um, and the world should see that and be inspired by it. And so that was the objective. That was the goal in season one. And we had to have a lot of conversations with athletes. Like literally like Pacey McKelvin was having to text Keegan for me and be like, dude, Shannon's cool, like. I think you're going to like this project like you should just sit down and have an interview with them and you know, and then walking into season two, you know, I'm, I'm calling Keegan.
**** - (): I'm like, Hey, man, when can I get on your schedule? And usually he's like, cool. Anytime that's not before the race focus. I respect it. Um, he manages time so well, which again, it's Why he performed so well. And I think that was an interesting learning experience this year is, is really getting to see Keegan's dominance and as a character, see that evolve.
**** - (): And then how that pairs to what I'm learning about him behind the scenes. Um, and, and how that's a testament to, you know, how to be successful. And so. Yeah, season two is, I mean, here's a spoiler, average length of these episodes is like 35 minutes. I mean, some episodes are 45 minutes long. Wow. Last year, I think some of the longest ones were like 22, 25 minutes long.
**** - (): And that is a testament to people giving us time, to good story. It's also a testament to the hardest nut I've ever had to crack. In filmmaking in my career, hands down is how to film off road racing. That is a challenging thing to do. It takes a lot. I have a
[00:25:50] - (): Craig Dalton (host): bunch of, I have a bunch of questions on that front.
**** - (): Yeah. Before we jump into the technical part of filming off road racing, I'm curious, like you, you said you, you go in and you choose a selection of athletes to work with. And I imagine, you know, we don't know when you start filming, you don't know if someone's going to have an injury. Someone's going to drop out of the series or, you know, something unexpected has happened.
**** - (): Do you go in with ten athletes knowing you probably only have eight storylines you can tell and certain ones end up on the cutting room floor and don't end up making an appearance in the series?
[00:26:28] - (): Shannon Vandivier: Yeah, no, I mean, it's a good question. No, I don't think anyone spent time with us and did not make the cutting room floor.
**** - (): Period. Uh, however, there are certainly investments you make on the front end of a season, hoping someone might do better, but if they're not performing and. They don't necessarily have some compelling aspect of the story that keeps you really interested. Um, then you might see them fall off in the series, you know,
[00:26:55] - (): Craig Dalton (host): that's normal.
**** - (): Yeah, conversely, I imagine you might have a character, I keep saying character, but an athlete who starts excelling later in the season. And you didn't really think that you would be following her throughout the year as closely, but it's clear they're doing exceptional things in the
[00:27:13] - (): Shannon Vandivier: series. I mean, last year, Haley Smith, she wasn't on our radar until I think I interviewed her after the race at Crusher and the Tusher last year.
**** - (): I mean, that's a long way into the season. I mean, I was like, man, who is Haley? You know, again, I just didn't know what I was doing. She wasn't on my radar. No one put her on my radar, but like when you look at her on paper. I, she should have been on my radar from the get go, but the reality is, is she had a strategy to her season.
**** - (): She was gonna, she didn't want to burn herself out too quick. She wanted to be peaking, which is a strategy, right? To be peaking on the back end of such a long season. So, last season, The female champion, right? Of the, the, the number one spot of lifetime Grand Prix. We didn't even know about her until Crusher.
**** - (): We didn't even recognize who she was or how, how impressive of an effort she was putting down until then. So, um, this year, I can't say that that happened to us. We got lucky, you know, in that sense. I think I was hopeful. I was hopeful some of my, the dark horses like Matt Beers would have showed up a little bit more.
**** - (): Um, honestly, I think that I really wanted, I want to see Keegan lose. Like I do, you know, like I want to see him lose. Not because I don't like Keegan, but because like. Dang, like that dude ran and ran and kept running and just ran away with the series and which in itself Became a really important part of the story this season But I would love to see someone challenge him.
**** - (): I would love to see that right dethrone Keegan like dude, that's gonna be a cool storyline when someone actually shows up to do that I think Keegan wants that too, by the way You know, like Sophia as well. Like I think they're there to race and when they actually have something to race for, when they have someone really pushing them to their limits, um, that's when you get stronger and that's when you really understand who you are.
**** - (): And so, yeah, I think, um. Yeah, I don't know. I could, I could, you want to keep going. I can keep talking, you know, like, dude, uh, my brain is hit on some of these topics because I mean, I've literally analyzed these writers, these scenarios, these dynamics, every possible way that I feel like I can't. And so coolest and most inspiring part of it, all of it is just simply the fact that, you know, um.
**** - (): What's happening in North America is so unique and so special. And yeah, the fact that those international athletes, although I wish they would have performed a little bit better, some of them, you know, some of them performed great and really kind of figured out where they were in the pecking order here.
**** - (): And I think it's really cool. All of them are coming back next season. Yeah.
[00:29:56] - (): Craig Dalton (host): I think clearly like a bunch of them figured out what it's like being in the U. S. this long or doing, you know, how to handle coming back and forth to their home country and back to the U. S. So yeah, I'd like to think in 2024, some of them are a little bit better prepared to be super competitive and that'll be exciting for all us fans.
[00:30:15] - (): Shannon Vandivier: Yeah, Matt Beers said it best. We were doing an interview at Big Sugar and he goes, I can't do a South American or South American, South African accent. Um, it'll probably come off as like a leprechaun or Australian, but he says, you know, I've cracked the American code. He's like, I figured it out. I'm coming back next season.
**** - (): And the American code is altitude. And he's like, and I'm coming back and people better watch out. So I think he's like, he's, he thinks there's an American code and he's just spent the season sussing it out and figuring it out. And now he's going to come back this next season, um, with a different or better training plan.
**** - (): So yeah, I love it. Which is cool. You know,
[00:30:55] - (): Craig Dalton (host): you had mentioned something earlier and it might've been before we started recording just about sort of the challenge of creating a series after we know the results already. How do you think about that? I mean, obviously there's such an infusion of the personal storylines that's a huge bonus that we don't get throughout the year as race fans following these races on social media.
**** - (): So how do you think about, you know, the fact that the results are known and you're still, you know, building a story narrative about the season? Hmm.
[00:31:29] - (): Shannon Vandivier: Okay. Um, did you, did you follow any of the racing this year? Mm hmm. Yeah. Do you get a tingly, like overwhelming sensation and a grin on your face when you saw who got first or second, say at Leadville?
**** - (): Yeah, a hundred percent. Right. Do you think when I frame this thing up around a story that shows you inside that writer's face, what he's feeling emotionally or what she's feeling emotionally and everything that In the immediate past and also the distant past that she's had to put in to get to that moment, that maybe that tingly sensation and the way you experience that race will be even that much more elevated.
[00:32:14] - (): Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, a 100 percent Shannon and I like
[00:32:16] - (): Shannon Vandivier: that. Right? It's like, I'm thinking about how, like, the reality is, it's like. Man, I, I don't remember. I, I watched Formula One, I guess, but sometimes I've forgotten one. But like, the reality is, is like, the episodes aren't about the race, really. You know, like That's funny, I don't Which I don't think is a
[00:32:35] - (): Craig Dalton (host): vector.
**** - (): I love that series as well, and I've never watched A Formula one race in that season. My entire experience is like a year removed because I just watch it during that Netflix series.
[00:32:47] - (): Shannon Vandivier: Totally. Right. And so I think that like, to me, I think there's a cool thing, right? Like if you're a hardcore, like Grand Prix or just off road cycling fan and you follow everything.
**** - (): Um, I think you're gonna have watched the race in real time and understood the value, the importance, the significance of who won or, you know, the characters involved, the racers involved, and why it's a big deal that they won. But when you get a chance to watch our series and you get a chance to like really see behind the scenes, you know, like we're in their homes with them, you know, like we are, um, We are showing a layer of vulnerability that you actually haven't ever seen before.
**** - (): I mean, there's never been put out there on these particular, you know, people. Um, and so I think how I've approached the creative on this is to not even think about the fact that, you know, the results are out there because it's about the layers. You've seen the one, the layer of them crossing the finish line or the footage of them racing that race.
**** - (): But. I've got five more layers to peel back for you, and I'm going to connect some dots for you, and I'm going to show the interpersonal relationships between the women and between the men, you know, and sometimes in some cases between the women and the men, you know, because the men's races often can impact the women's races, you know, that's a challenge.
**** - (): That's another way that lifetime is looking to continue to evolve, and they want You know, as this thing that's happening in North America right now, you know, it's, the evolution is going to come at the pressure, the ideas, the sentiment of all of us, you know, or all the, the key components of all the racers, the mass participants, as well as the pointy end of the spear, you know, as well as these athletes who are way out front and who are only making this faster and faster and faster.
**** - (): And so the rules will change a little bit. They're already changing a little bit, you know. It's cool to see, you know, how the women feel you heard it when you were watching the race unbound, you heard women have their own start. And maybe you saw an interview too, about a woman saying, Hey, this is really cool.
**** - (): We're really excited for this, but I unpacked. The shit out of that, like, like in there, like, I really wanted to understand from the most core credible writers, why is that a big deal? How does that actually change the dynamic dynamic of your race? Like, um, how was it safer? Like, what does that mean to you?
**** - (): Like what happened to you last year versus what is going to happen to you this year? You know? I think there's a lot of examples like that. Storylines that just really, I think will, will come to life. And I think you're going to see. What's currently like, I don't know, as an analogy, two dimensional, you're going to see three dimensional, right?
**** - (): You're going to see these storylines and these races and what's going on. And, you know, these athletes right now, as we speak are, are already getting in five to eight hour rides. You know, like if you're following them on social media, they're already training, you know, like a month off. Like that was their off season.
**** - (): They went to Mexico, had a margarita and now they're like. Already binge eating carbs and like, you know, crushing crazy miles. And all they're thinking about is like Mid South, you know? And then after that, it's BWR. And then it's like, it's just months away. And so, you know, like those are the stories and that's the layer that I'm excited to show is just really.
**** - (): The sheer amount of dedication and that goes, yeah,
[00:36:20] - (): Craig Dalton (host): it's been super interesting getting to know some of these athletes through your eyes and through your storytelling. I definitely for myself became more of a fan of certain athletes and less of a fan of others, which was super interesting. I think the other thing not to be discounted, and maybe this is a good segue into the technical challenges of filming these events was, you know, you have the best equipment to film these.
**** - (): Racing environments. So if you're looking to see what is the gravel feel like in Bentonville, your camera footage and the equipment you have on in the field gives you that feel, which I love because I'm I've always been about exploring. The different types of gravel in the U. S. and what the experience is like and trying to extract that from race organizers.
**** - (): So I definitely appreciate that thread. For the listener to just think about before you answer this question, we're talking about mountain bike racing at Sea Otter on single track. How do you get in there? We're talking about cruising 200 miles across Kansas where Coverage is difficult. The terrain is difficult.
**** - (): We're, you know, in Bentonville, we've got all these different locations. Schwamigan, for God's sake, I don't know how you get any footage there. So, talk about, and maybe you can juxtapose Season 1 to Season 2, how do you get out there in the field? How do you get these shots that make us feel like we're part of the race?
**** - (): Man,
[00:37:47] - (): Shannon Vandivier: you know, golly, what a question. Here's the thing, man, is like, it's been trial by fire. It's really what it's been. It's been a lot of mistakes made. It's been a lot of hard lessons. It's been a lot of adapting. I mean, the IQ that we've accumulated at this point is extremely valuable to me, to my team.
**** - (): You know, like, I don't know, like, I think the reality is, is. Anyone outside of my team probably doesn't even really see it. You can hear my words that I'm about to speak right now, but the reality is, is everything I'm about to say has come at the cost of a lot of brainpower, a lot of thinking. I mean, the softness of the gravel, how much dust.
**** - (): That it's composed of, how sharp it is, how far that we're going, how much potential mud is on the course. If it's too dry, what's that going to do to the race and how we cover it. If it's too wet, what's that going to do the race and how we cover it. I mean, compare and contrast big sugar to unbound this year, you know, like moon dust versus the thickest, stickiest mud that you can find.
**** - (): I mean, the type of mud that buries you down to your axles and stops if you do it the wrong way. And so. Um, you know, Schwamigan, oh my gosh, Schwamigan, Schwamigan's hard, Schwamigan's scary, Schwamigan's so fast and covering Schwamigan is really tough. So, all right, let me break this down for you. Every race has a characteristic.
**** - (): And the first thing I'm asking myself is how much of it is two track versus single track. Single track obviously is the hardest thing to cover. Um, you know. The, the way you cover it has a lot to do with how often and what the shape of the course is. Where can I create cutoff points? How can I leapfrog riders?
**** - (): Uh, we're using e bikes a lot at Sea Otter. That's a huge characteristic of Sea Otter is getting out there on e bikes. And so we'll go cover, honestly, 40 miles in a race ourselves on e bikes with. Camera backpacks on, drone strapped to them. And I've got a team of seven people just on e bikes out there mobbing around and doing what they got to do.
**** - (): On top of that, we find the access points where I can get a vehicle out there. I can get bounce around. That's another unit. That's another crew. You know, a helicopter is a wonderful tool. And we didn't have that at Sea Otter this year, but certainly is in the conversation right now for this next year. I think helicopter obviously is the best way.
**** - (): And I'm so grateful to Lifetime for their continued vision and investment into the tools needed to be successful. And that's been a part of the learning process and, you know, like any wonderful. Client, you always go over budget on these things and they haven't murdered me yet. And so I just can't thank them enough for that.
**** - (): Um, and so, you know, the reality is, is it's all in the effort to just produce, produce the highest quality content that you can. Um, but. You can't have one thing if your content is all statics of a rider swiping by, or it's all constant tracking motion, you know, or it's all from a helicopter, then it's one dimensional, you need all of it.
**** - (): And that in itself is the inherent challenge to make it cinematic, really particular about the quality of my, if I put my name to it, I want it to be the best, you know, and that's something that cinematography is incredibly important to me. Um. Probably borderline OCD on that. And so I think that that is a huge weight that I put on myself and my team to make sure that we execute.
**** - (): And tools of, of the trade, um, help a lot, but again, diversity is key. And so you need a mix of all of it. And so you need to. I mean, our strategy plans probably look pretty similar to like what it looks like for like a Navy SEAL team or Marine team when they're like planning a siege on a city, you know, we've got maps out and I've got, you know, upwards of 15 people in a room sitting there and I'm, I've got code names for the units.
**** - (): I'm like, all right, unit a unit B unit. C unit D, here's what you're doing. You're going to leapfrog you unit, um, be here. And then you're going to pivot over to the Eagle's nest. You know, like we've broken down the course into its variable carrier characteristics, especially as we've defined the course. I mean, that's one of the most valuable IQs that I currently hold is like.
**** - (): Say another team is to walk in after us and try to execute the same project. I know almost every corner of every turn of every course, you know, like that in itself is an investment of time. It's an IQ and in doing so you can actually, we've got to a point where we understand the dynamics of the race.
**** - (): And part of that is the strategy of the racer. I know when, I can predict when someone's going to attack, and it's based on the terrain. It's based on where they're at psychologically, at what point in the race, and how they need to separate, create separations in the field. Yeah, yeah. First 25 percent of the race, you can.
**** - (): You can count on selection one happening 100 percent like that's intentional, that's strategic. They need to blow the field up as soon as they can. Once you're, you have your, your lead in your chase group, um, then it becomes, um, then it becomes an interesting dynamic of. Using key features on the course to start weeding guys out.
**** - (): So you'll see attacks happen on hills. You'll see Keegan and Finstie try to blow Cole up, you know, and he'll be a cockroach. He'll keep coming back, you know, and they'll keep trying to blow him up. They did that at Sea Otter this year, you know, he kept showing back up. He kept showing back up all the way up until.
**** - (): Um, that, that, uh, that final climb and, um, that final climb is certainly, um, where Keegan and Fenstein finally got that separation from them. But until then they were using the landscape and they were strategically using, um, the, the pack dynamics to To create certain scenarios. And so we can use that to our advantage.
**** - (): And when we have that IQ and we understand the essence of, of racing and my whole team understands that my whole team has experienced at this point, then you're successful. And that's what we figured out this year. I mean,
[00:44:06] - (): Craig Dalton (host): That's the gold for us fans when we're watching this. If we can actually see that moment where the elastic is stretched to the end and it bursts and see and feel that emotion, like that's the moment that we all want to be in.
**** - (): That's so difficult to capture in off road
[00:44:21] - (): Shannon Vandivier: racing. Well, to predict where it's going to happen, right. And I'm not saying I'm a hundred percent, but every race we were there, you know, every race at those moments, you know, when someone drops out of the race, you know, Alexis Skarda, like one of my favorite people, um, in the series, honestly, cause she's so, she's a very intense, like she's a really laid back person, actually, which is funny, but when she races, like she puts her eyes on and like, man, that girl, like, look, I get out of her way.
**** - (): She's. She's a killer. Um, and so like seeing that point where she actually had to drop out of Unbound, it was actually a really sad moment for, for those of us who were rooting for her, you know, but to be able to capture that, to be able to tell that part of the story and to see where she, um, she actually had to To fall off of Sophia, um, was, was hard.
**** - (): Um, and so, you know, like, capturing that, I think as a fan, I think you're going to really be able to relate to the sheer effort that goes into these things, and the psychological warfare that is going on between riders, but also the hardest person there is to race is yourself. Yeah. So, capturing
[00:45:29] - (): Craig Dalton (host): those moments.
**** - (): Having spent Yeah. Having spent so much time thinking about these series the last couple of years and becoming a true fan yourself, is there a single race that you'd call your favorite?
[00:45:42] - (): Shannon Vandivier: Hmm. That's a great question. I like Unbound the most, a hundred percent. I think Unbound is interesting because you just don't know what's going to happen.
**** - (): Um, it's a really fun race to film be in the, in the sense that we actually logistically, it's one of our, our, it has the fewest amount of logistics. Um, because it's just 200 miles of gravel road. So our vehicles, we can do a lot of leapfrogging. So our coverage is really good. So our storytelling is really good.
**** - (): It's really dialed. And you know, this year I'm looking at the nuance. I'm looking at the nuance of who's pulling and who's not pulling. You know, last year I didn't know about pulling and I didn't know about, you know, like everyone doing their work. And so this season being able to just watch the strategy and on the men's side, it was like so crazy inspirational because you had seven guys.
**** - (): That, like, basically, once you got through the mud, worked together, truly together. Nobody, nobody sat on the wheel at all. Everyone worked together, like, it was kind of crazy because it came down to a sprint at the end and it's just, like, didn't seem right. You know, like, Pete Stettin, I think, was seven out of the seven guys.
**** - (): But, like, man. You're talking about seconds, you know, you're talking about him putting in so much work. And if you look at the year before he got, I think eight, but it was a way different race, you know, like amount of effort. I don't think his result actually justified the effort that he put into it. But yeah, it's because they all work together that they all got through it.
**** - (): And so it was really cool, which might change people's strategy. A guy like Pete next year might be like, forget this. Like I'm a, I'm actually going to be bolder and blow the steel, blow the screw up, you know, and try to actually make a flyer happen or convince three guys to fly off with me sooner so that we know it doesn't come down to seven of us trying to sprint each other, you know, like, so I think Unbound, I think is.
**** - (): I like it because there's a lot of strategy involved, you know, single track mountain bike racing is heavily dependent on skillset, which I'm a mountain biker predominantly. And, and I get that and I think that's really cool. I like filming mountain biking a lot because it's really dynamic and fast and windy and like you have the trees and like when you see our cinematography this year at sea otter, I think you'll be really excited.
**** - (): We made it pretty, um, it is pretty. And so, um, but. But gravel racing is like this beautiful blend between mountain biking and road racing where you actually have, you don't have teams necessarily, but man, it's so cool to see these pack dynamics form and then to see the respect or disrespect they built for each other.
**** - (): And so, um, it's like last season in season one, I believe it was Ivar who, I mean, we. We filmed it. He sat on that wheel a lot. He was the most well rested going into that sprint. There's no question about it. You know, like the thing it was talked about, he won, you know, that's a strategy. It's not how you become popular, but it's certainly a, an opportunity to win.
**** - (): And so, you know, that's a strategy and you might, you know, you, you might need to be a bit of the match, you know, like to actually win some of these races. And
[00:48:50] - (): Craig Dalton (host): so, yeah, you can't get away with it too often. But, you know, you got, probably got one big one in you where you can sit in, people don't know you.
[00:48:59] - (): Shannon Vandivier: Yeah. Yeah. How many times do you have to win, uh, Unbound to secure a couple of years worth of sponsorships though? You know? So,
[00:49:05] - (): Craig Dalton (host): yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Thanks for all the time, Shannon. This was super exciting to get the behind the scenes. Clearly, you guys put so much work and effort into it, you and the Lifetime team.
**** - (): I'm super excited by the time this airs, I'll probably have binge watched the entire season two and I encourage everybody out to go out on, uh, it's on Lifetime's YouTube channel to find the
[00:49:28] - (): Shannon Vandivier: content. Right? Yeah. You can find it, um, on Lifetime's YouTube channel on their social media pages. You can certainly come follow me at Shannon Vandiver or my company at Code Collaborative.
**** - (): Um, and you'll find all sorts of fun stuff there, but. Thank y'all. We really, I really hope you enjoy it. I really hope that you fall in love with the characters. And again, the goal at the end of all of this is just celebrate, um, getting outside and being healthier. And, you know, we want to harbor on just how inspirational these athletes are.
**** - (): And so you can expect to be inspired. If you want to get inspired, check out this series, because these athletes have inspired me for sure.
[00:50:07] - (): Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. Fantastic. Thanks, Shannon. Thanks,
[00:50:10] - (): Shannon Vandivier: dude. -
Erwin Verveken, former professional cyclocross rider and organizer of the UCI World Gravel Championships, discusses the history and growth of the UCI Gravel Series. He explains how the series was created to provide a more diverse and competitive experience for riders, and how it has quickly gained popularity and attracted top riders from around the world. Erwin also shares insights into the qualification process, the different types of gravel courses, and the future of gravel racing.
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Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos:
Key Takeaways:
The UCI Gravel Series was created to provide a more diverse and competitive experience for riders, with a variety of courses and race formats. The series has quickly grown in popularity, attracting top riders from around the world and expanding to include more events each year. Gravel racing is a unique blend of road racing and off-road riding, with courses that can vary in technicality and terrain. The UCI Gravel World Championships allows both elite riders and amateurs to compete together, creating a unique and inclusive racing experience. The series is constantly evolving, with new events being added each year and plans to expand to more countries in the future.[TRANSCRIPT]
[00:00:00] - (): Craig Dalton (host): Erwin, welcome to the show.
[00:00:02] - (): Erwin Verveken: Thank you. Thank you. It's a pleasure of being here.
[00:00:06] - (): Craig Dalton (host): I'm excited to talk to you and learn more about the UCI World Gravel Championships and a little bit of the history there. But as always, I'd just love to start out with learning a little bit about you. I know you've got a, a strong history in the sport of cycling. So just a quick overview of how you got involved in the sport.
**** - (): And then let's talk about how you got involved in. Kind of the event organizing side of the sport with UCI.
[00:00:29] - (): Erwin Verveken: Yeah. So I, I've been a pro rather mainly in cyclocross, uh, from 1995 till 2010. So a 16 year career in cyclocross, uh, uh, from the age of 22 to 38. And then when I retired from cycling in 2010, I started to work as a cyclocross and also a bit of model by coordinator at a lot. So lots of is a Belgian sports marketing company.
**** - (): Um, uh, at that time we were, I wouldn't say small, but yeah, it's, it's, it's grown a lot in, in the last, uh, 15 years. Um, and so initially I was only doing. Cyclocross, uh, in winter and mountain bike in summer. And then gradually, uh, I got other projects and in 2011, we started to talk to the, to the UCI to, uh, well, to reform a bit, the, the masters road world championships.
**** - (): So, um, yeah, everybody knows Ironman, Ironman, uh, and triathlon. You have to. Qualify somewhere in an arm and worldwide, uh, to get your ticket for the World Championships and, uh, well, the, the, the road Masters World Championships, uh, at the UCI, they were always organized in the same city in, in the same period for, for 20 years in Austria, uh, and there were some complaints of course, because the, the, yeah, always the same course, uh, the same type of riders, um, yeah, World Championships should move, uh, uh, you know, One day it should be a flat and fast race and then a race for climbers or for classical riders.
**** - (): So we came with a proposal to reform it like in Ironman with the qualifier series, uh, which, which started in 2011 with seven qualifier events and then a world championships. And well, it moved from seven the next year to 20. And yeah, now for next year, it's. events. It's the biggest series we've ever had.
**** - (): 2024. I mean,
[00:02:26] - (): Craig Dalton (host): curious, Erwin, when, when you expanded the qualification, the number of qualification races, did you end up expanding the number of athletes that could actually compete in the world championships for the masters?
[00:02:38] - (): Erwin Verveken: Yeah. Uh, so it has always been 25 percent per age group will qualify for the world championships. And so the results are major made up per age group. Um, and, and, uh, yeah. So from that, uh, point, uh, Uh, yeah. First year I think we had 700 drivers at the world championships. Uh, and then it grew to over a thousand thousands, 500, 2000.
**** - (): And in the last few years, we are in between two and a half and 3000, which is still okay. Uh, one year we decided to lower the percentage of qualified rider from 25 to 20 because of safety. Uh, we, we got 3000 riders at the start of, uh. Of one single event on a day, uh, so the Grand Fonda World Championships, but then it was, uh, yeah, 2020, the COVID year, so, and, and, and afterwards, uh, yeah, it took some time for riders to start traveling again.
**** - (): So we, we went back to 25%. And in that idea in 2019 at the end of the season in a debriefing with UCI, we proposed also to make up a similar series of gravel events. Gravel is big in the States. I think the first real gravel events date from 2005, 2006 or so. Um, and they, yeah, we saw in Europe and other continents, but mainly Europe, um, gravel has always been Uh, a bit more recreational, um, never competitive.
**** - (): Um, and it's only, let's say the last five years that there's really competitive parallel events. Um, so, so yeah, and at the end of 2019, we proposed. A similar setup with the qualifier series, uh, leading up to a yearly world championships. Uh, which then, well, got postponed in 2020, 2021 because of COVID. Uh, so the, the, the first season was 2022 with 11 qualifier events.
**** - (): Uh, and this year already 18. And next year 25. So yeah, it's growing very fast and especially the number of participants is growing very very fast. So um And and the big difference is in gravel in the gravel world cheers and also the gravel world championships also elite riders can participate. So Where the, the ground from the world series is mainly for masters and amateurs.
**** - (): Uh, the gravel world series and the gravel world championships is, is for everybody. Uh, but still in the same concept where. In front there is a real battle amongst the best elite riders but in the back you as a recreational rider, you can also participate and if you're really fit and Keen and and also for the masters at a later age You can still qualify for the world championships and also right there together with well this year what for not more each?
**** - (): Following they were all at the start So yeah, I can imagine if you if you start in the back end and you're just five minutes behind these riders Uh, at the start, uh, that it's an amazing feeling to, to be in the same race with all those top stars.
[00:05:47] - (): Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, yeah, that's I remember speaking to Bruce from the Highland Gravel Classic in Arkansas, who's the the one US gravel race that's part of the UCI series this year and the coming year in 2024. And I remember walking away from that conversation with that same feeling that Despite what some people in the United States may think about, you know, high performance gravel racing, and as it may detour from their vision of a community style gravel race as people who are around the sport and like other aspects of the sport, just being able to line up at a, at a UCI event with the names you just mentioned would be a thrill of a lifetime.
[00:06:27] - (): Erwin Verveken: Yeah. I think so. Um, of course, gravel in the States, uh, is, is, is much older and has much more tradition and, uh, your biggest events are, are still bigger than, than the UCI events. Uh, our biggest event this year was 1700 and probably next year we will go over 2000, but yeah, if you speak about the real classics, uh, unbound and, and, and, and, well, you have several of them.
**** - (): They are more than double than our biggest race at the moment, but I think we still have potential to grow. Um, I see that, um, what, what really excites me is that after all these events and especially after the world championships, you all, you hear all these top stars telling, Hey, this was fun, huh? Wout van Aert had big trouble, a flat tire, a crash at the world championships, but he still continued because he liked it so much.
**** - (): And he yeah. Enjoyed. Riding a gravel race. So yeah, he is, by the way, my neighbor because he's living in the same city as me even. Well, if you count in miles like you do in the States, it's a bit more than a mile from where I live. And he called me and told, Hey, I want to do a UCI gravel race because I want to do the world championships this year.
**** - (): So all of a sudden he was there at the Belgian qualifier event in August and then six weeks later at the world championships and he really enjoyed it. So And that's the good thing. They are pure ambassadors, not only for cycling sports in general, but also for gravel because, uh, they have a lot of fun.
**** - (): Um, Valverde was there, Moritz, he said, well, it's my first gravel race I ever did, world championships. I always liked. Going off road, uh, mountain bike, but in gravel there's much more speed, it's much more fun. And, and yeah, I want to do this more next year, especially because of course he's wearing the nice rainbow jersey.
[00:08:26] - (): Craig Dalton (host): That's right. Yeah. I think it's going to be interesting to see how within the European Peloton, if it follows the U S. You know, in, in the early days of gravel as professional athletes started moving over like Ted King, for example, would dabble in it. And then I think he told some of his ex pro tour friends that, Hey, this is fun.
**** - (): Plus you started to see them being able to make a career out of it. And obviously the likes of Wout van Aert is not going to leave the pro tour anytime soon, but it is interesting to think about. Riders who are later in their career, who still have power in their legs and enthusiasm in their heart to start seeing European gravel racing as a way to extend their career in a way that maybe gives them a little bit more joy than they had racing in the pro peloton after all those
[00:09:16] - (): Erwin Verveken: Yeah. No, for sure. Um, I think there are two types of writers. You have the real top stars, like Rod van Aert, like Moritz and Demi Vollering. And I'm sure they will probably do one or two events a year when it fits in their program. But their focus will never be on gravel, uh, during the season, but well, the position of the gravel world championships at the end of the road season, uh, is ideal for them to end their season.
**** - (): And I'm sure that, uh, one day, uh, probably also, uh, Pogacar will be there. He was already there at the first world championships last year. but wasn't allowed from his team to take part, but he was in the, in the VIP area at the finish line. The day after he won the Tour of Lombardia, so the last classic of the season, it was on Saturday and the gravel world championships were, well, nearby.
**** - (): It's only a hundred kilometer away. So, and he really enjoyed it and he said, well, I want to do this race. But, yeah, it's still, um, there's still like the feeling of, okay, this is a dangerous sport, uh, uh, you can crash, you can, yeah, whatever, and it can jeopardize your next season, but as it's at the end of the season, I don't see really a point, uh, you see some, some crashes and, and, um, Yeah, that's, that's probably part of gravel, but it's not like a major crash.
**** - (): It's always in small groups. Uh, gravel is, is, is not to be compared with, with mountain bike or cyclocross. It's a, it's, it's an off road discipline, but the type of event is much more road race. Um, and that's what we also also see in the last two years. I'm having my background in cyclocross and cyclocross is very big in Belgium, but the real gravel, I know the real cyclocross specialists, like the ones who do the full season of cyclocross.
**** - (): Uh, and not focus on the road. Yeah. They usually, by the end of the race, the last hour, they, they, they lose contact with the, with, with, with the, the road is, um, uh, gravel is much more a road race than it will ever be, a cyclocross or a mountain bike. It's not technical at all. Um, and, and yeah, in my opinion, it's, it's, it's for the pure.
**** - (): Road specialists from the, from the spring classic said that the ones who like, uh, party rebel, we're like tour of Flanders, uh, those type of guys. They are the ones who are the real gravel specialists.
[00:11:41] - (): Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. I think that makes sense. I think one thing that we've learned in racing gravel over these years is that anything can happen and it's your ability as a rider to deal with unpredictable situations. And to your point as a cyclocross racer. Every lap, there's an unpredictable situation that you have to deal with and you have to deal with nursing your bike and not being too hard on the equipment.
**** - (): And there's certainly no, you know, there's no team car following you very quickly. Although in cyclocross, you can swap
[00:12:09] - (): Erwin Verveken: Yeah. You can switch bikes two times a lap. Um, and, and you can have it cleaned and everything. So, um, no, that's, that's, I think it makes. It's part of the story why it's, it's so popular because, uh, he lost 10 minutes at the world championships, but he still continued. And it's more like the epic, right?
**** - (): Like you see in, uh, in Paris, uh, it's, it's kind of a survival race. Um, even though you have a lot of bad luck in the beginning, the race is never over. You can still continue. You can still make up and, and, and, uh, close gaps. And so. That feeling of, of, of, of like a real epic race in, in epic circumstances. At this moment, we, we had to ice the world championships in dry, in dry circumstances, but yeah, one day we'll also have them in, uh, in very wet circumstances, like you had, uh, I think unbound was this year in very muddy conditions.
**** - (): So, and that will make it very epic. Uh, but to me it's, it's yeah, if you compare it with European. Cycling it's, it's, it's, it's, it's much more a copy of, uh, what Paris Roubaix is every year.
[00:13:24] - (): Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, yeah, I was going to ask you to the extent in which you, you were there and understand the run up when that first world championships event happened in the qualifiers. How are you thinking about the criteria for the course and course construction? Were there some constraints that the UCI put on the event to make it in the mold of what they were expecting?
[00:13:47] - (): Erwin Verveken: Well, the first year, first of all, um, because of COVID and, and, and yeah. Let's say COVID ended, but, uh, yeah, everybody was still afraid to set up a new event and even the World Championships, uh, beginning of 2022. We had a few candidates, uh, to run the World Championships, but, uh, one after another, they decided, okay, maybe it's too early.
**** - (): Let's skip 2022, but we'll focus on 2023 or 2024. Um, So we found an organizer rather late in Italy, so Filippo Pozzato, the ex pro rider. He did a good job because it was like on a short period. He had to prepare the World Championships, but the World Championships were not the typical gravel race. I know from from this doing this series for sure.
**** - (): Not the typical gravel race you have in the States. It was like a 50 50 road gravel race and even the gravel was like, yeah, it was flat. It was Um, yeah, to me a bit too much of a road race. Um, um, um, but yeah, it was all last minute. I think that the, uh, the organizer was awarded two months prior to the race.
**** - (): Uh, then yeah, the full process of having courses approved, having them checked and then getting the necessary approvals from the different towns. Yeah, it took some time and there was not really. to, to, to, to make an update, um, um, which was done this year, this year. Uh, we had to switch organizer and it was also, uh, only, only two months before the world championships, but the course, which was presented was much better than the first edition, uh, in percentage was more off road, more gravel, but also much more exciting, uh, flats, uh, yeah.
**** - (): Paved sections in between, but also a lot of elevation, um, and a very beautiful course, I think very different from what you have in the States. Um, if, if I see the images and the, and the videos from, from Unbound and the American races, yeah, they are. Even more road racing, uh, on gravel roads, um, yeah, in percentage, much more gravel roads, but it's less technical than what we see as gravel events in mainly Europe, which are, um, I wouldn't say they are not more towards mountain bike for sure or not, but they are, um, not wide open big boulevards where you can ride the truck.
**** - (): Uh, it's always a smaller, uh, Uh, yeah, forest roads, farm roads. Um, it's, it's more technical.
[00:16:38] - (): Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think there's a wide diversity of gravel racing in the United States. Obviously, to your point, the Unbound may be on sort of dirt roads
[00:16:48] - (): Erwin Verveken: Yeah. And that's maybe the image we have from, from American gravel racing.
[00:16:51] - (): Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, yeah, no, it's very interesting to hear you say that because if I'm thinking about like what you might see from an unbound or an SVT gravel, that would very much be the takeaway.
**** - (): I would have as well that these are, you know, sort of road racing style open, you know, wide roads that give a lot of opportunity for moving around. Um, but if you dig into the gravel cycling world, there are a lot of events that really push The capabilities of the bikes and really create sections that have a huge impact on the race based on one's technical abilities.
**** - (): So, you know, they might go into single track, they might go into mud, they might have river crossings, all the types of things that would really push both the rider's skill levels and equipment.
[00:17:37] - (): Erwin Verveken: Well, for, for the UCI, uh, two things, of course, when, when we started up the, the UCI Gravel Series and the Gravel World Championships. Um, one of the first things we decided is, uh, you have a few of, of, of, uh, of very long, uh, endurance races, uh, a month is, uh, 300 kilometers or even more than 200 miles. Um,
[00:18:00] - (): Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. 200 miles. Yeah,
[00:18:01] - (): Erwin Verveken: we decided to, with the UCI gravel world series to have like the typical, um, duration of a road race.
**** - (): So five, six hours. Um, racing, not, not like unmount this, I guess, 10, 11 hours of racing. Uh, and that's what we are. We're not aiming for that. That's, that's like, yeah, a very big endurance race. Uh, our goal is to keep it in between 150 and 200 kilometers. Um, depending a bit on the elevation and on what is available.
**** - (): Um, and then, uh, a second thing is so like single track. It is possible when there's no alternative, so to connect two sections, uh, with a small single track, uh, towards the end of the race. Yeah, it's not preferred, but if there's no other solution, then we allow it. But the big majority should be on wide open gravel roads where we can also ride a car.
**** - (): That's the goal of the UCI Gravel World Series.
[00:19:10] - (): Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. I certainly noticed in the, in the race coverage this past year, and certainly commentary from both the men and women on the U S team that the narrowness of the roads. And you hear this refrain, even when road cyclists go over to Europe, it's just another world when you're trying to pack 200 people into these, through these narrow villages.
**** - (): And certainly the other big thing that stood out in some of the video I saw was, Some of the, um, the 180 degree switchbacks on the roads and trails that the riders had to navigate and the, the chaos that ensued around that and how that impact the race.
[00:19:47] - (): Erwin Verveken: Yeah, well, I'm not sure about the 180 degree turns. Uh, you mean now in the last world championships?
[00:19:55] - (): Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. There was one scene that I saw the riders cutting across the, the earliest part of the corner to get around and join the group.
[00:20:04] - (): Erwin Verveken: Yeah, there were some. Uh, well, it's, it's a famous YouTube video from, from the law at the first half an hour of the, of the gravel world championships in the elite category. Yeah. I don't know. I think it's from an American rider who filmed it with his scope.
[00:20:18] - (): Craig Dalton (host): yeah. I think it's from Payson McKelvin.
[00:20:21] - (): Erwin Verveken: Um, yeah, it gives a good idea of the hectic in the start.
**** - (): Uh, and of course, well, our, our, our courses are not fence. They are just marked with science and everybody has a GPS device on his bike. Um, so that's, yeah. I presume it's also the same in the States, so you don't have, uh, uh, tape, uh, to, to, to, to prevent riders from cutting corners. So, um, I think that's, that's the spirit of gravel.
**** - (): So, um, yeah, it's only in the, in the first. 10, 15 k in, uh, uh, in the course. Uh, but next year, because then we are ourselves, the organized, so the company I'm working for Goot, so is, uh, organizing the, the next world championships in Belgium. Um, yeah, it will hardly be impossible to, to cut corners there, uh, in the, in the first.
**** - (): Part of the race and where it's possible. Yeah, we'll probably also try to prevent it Without making too much Yeah It's, it's, it's never the goal to make like a fenced cyclocross or mountain bike course. Um, that's, that's not our goal, but yeah, different type of racing. Uh, I've done, yeah, because I'm, I'm managing the, these, these races.
**** - (): And, um, of course also ex pro rider. So I take my bike to a lot of these events and try to ride them. To get a good impression on the different type of events, uh, if I compare our events, um, uh, which are in the series, there's indeed a lot of different events. Uh, next year we will also, uh, organize the, the Belgian Gravel Championships, uh, which are.
**** - (): Uh, very typical American style and Bond style, uh, gravel racing, which is very uncommon in Belgium. But yeah, in the north, there's like a section where, where we can have those kind of races. Uh, so. There's a bit of a difference, but, but yeah, uh, the good thing about gravel is that, uh, you can have very technical races, um, uh, but, but the majority are on wide open roads, fast, uh, uh, you don't need to be too technical.
**** - (): If you see, um, more rich winning the world championships. Although I think he's very technical as a rider, as a roadie. Uh, but also Jasper Stavun winning the first European Championships. Um, I don't think he's very technical as a roadie. So, uh, yeah, it's, uh, it's something which, which can suit any, any, uh, any road specialist.
[00:23:00] - (): Craig Dalton (host): Gotcha. And when you think about the courses in the men's courses and the women's courses, as I understand it, they differed in distance. Can you talk a little bit about the logic behind that?
[00:23:11] - (): Erwin Verveken: Well, I know that in, in, in, in the States and also let's say in, in, in general in English speaking countries, it's also the same in Britain and in Australia. There's a, there's a big movement to have women and men having the same distance. If you see it cycling, uh, in history, and then I mean, from 50 years back, and even now, all disciplines, uh, being cyclocross, mountain bike, road, uh, women and men have different distances for the World Championships and World Cups.
**** - (): Uh, you can be, it's worth a discussion. I know that, uh, in, in. The English speaking countries, there's more, uh, a vote to have them equal, but I don't think there's, well, gender equality doesn't mean that they have to have the, the same distance. I think the media attention should be the same and, and the price money should be the same, but, uh, the, the distance, uh, if you have, uh, the women racing over 260, 270 kilometers, the road world championships.
**** - (): It would give a totally different dynamic and it would mean a much more individual race by the end of the race because then it's pure endurance. Well, for the man. Uh, yeah, it's it's another type of race, so I'm not really convinced if they should have, uh, the same distance for men and women. Um,
[00:24:42] - (): Craig Dalton (host): Are you thinking about it in terms of time? Are you shooting for a similar amount of time out there on the bike for
[00:24:48] - (): Erwin Verveken: no, not even time. Um, we did many surveys amongst the participants after the World Championships, uh, both in Gran Fondo and Gravel. And if you ask, uh, women if they prefer to have the same distance as men, probably Americans and, yeah, Australians, they would go for it. Yeah, the same distance, but it depends also a bit on what riders prefer.
**** - (): Uh, everybody is, is, if you're somebody who has a great endurance, uh, you will pick the same distance as the man. If you're more explosive and you're more a tactic, uh, uh, yeah, a strong sprinter type of rider. You prefer a shorter course. So, but in general, we see that, uh, if we ask men, women directly, our participants, that the majority still prefers a shorter distance for, uh, for women.
**** - (): Um,
[00:25:41] - (): Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. I mean, I think it's an interesting debate and I'm certainly not one to opine too strongly one way or the other, but I do imagine that you have more dynamic racing in the shorter distances
[00:25:53] - (): Erwin Verveken: that's what I'm.
[00:25:54] - (): Craig Dalton (host): people complaining with me about this.
[00:25:56] - (): Erwin Verveken: So I, I don't know, women on the road, for instance, the, uh, the road, World Championships now in Glasgow for women. I don't know, but I think there were 150, 160 and men were 260. In general, they're around that distance. But if you have the women also on the 260, well, it will be a pure endurance race.
**** - (): And by the end, they will be, there's a big chance that there will be one. One by one. So, um, and then on the meet, I'm floating can start racing again because she's she's a super strong rider who survives everybody by the end of the race when it's a very hard race. Um, so, yeah, um, it's worth the discussion.
**** - (): But if you ask the riders, I think the majority will still prefer to have a shorter distance for women because it's indeed another dynamic.
[00:26:51] - (): Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. When you think about, uh, and I do want to get into the master's element of this cause I think that's fascinating. And for our listeners who are non professional athletes, I think it's a great and interesting opportunity. But one final question at the elite level, how do you determine how many riders an individual country can bring to the event?
[00:27:10] - (): Erwin Verveken: Well, so the basic goal is that everybody should qualify. But, uh, in order to promote the first editions of the World Championships and, uh, yeah, to also have national teams and the federations involved, in 2022 and also this year, the UCI decided to grant 20 wildcards to every national federation. For riders, um, um, so in the past two years, now 2022, 2023, they could be used by any rider.
**** - (): Uh, so also the Masters and, and, and, and the Age Group riders. Uh, for 2024, it will only be limited for the Elite category. And gradually, it's our goal to limit the number of wildcards. So riders should be really be encouraged to qualify. But on the other hand, first year we had Peter Sagan, we had Mathieu we had, uh, Greg van Auermaat all participating.
**** - (): And without those wildcards, they wouldn't have been there. Uh, Pauline Ferrand Bréveau. This year Vollering, uh, Wout van Aert, uh, well, Wout qualified, but, uh, the other riders, Mohoritch, um, we were really happy with them at the start. So we want to keep a certain amount of, uh, of, of wildcards for the, for the top level riders.
**** - (): And yeah, we'll see from year to year, uh, evaluate after every edition of the World Championships, if we have to stick to, uh, I don't know, maybe 10 wildcards, uh, maximum per country, or more wildcards for the bigger countries, uh, less wildcards for the smaller countries. But this year we also had riders from Guinea Bissau and from Barbados and, uh, yeah, like very exotic countries at the start.
**** - (): Uh, and they wouldn't have been there without these wildcards, so, um. Yeah, I'm still in favor of having them, but maybe limit them a bit more. So the drivers really are encouraged to have to go to a qualifier. Yeah,
[00:29:04] - (): Craig Dalton (host): And you mentioned that that qualification, it sounds like it's standard across the board. If you finish at a UCI gravel world cup qualifier event in the top 25%, you've punched your tickets to go to the world championships.
[00:29:17] - (): Erwin Verveken: The only change next year is that, um. And the first two years, qualification was always per age group, but then we saw this year Verde. Yeah. He saw, uh, in the meantime, 42 years old. So he, he then had to qualify in the 40 to 44 age category and Okay. The, the two races he did were, were not the biggest one.
**** - (): I think the, the one in, uh, the two in Spain, he won, were like five, 600 drivers at the start. So then it's still okay to to, to have him in the front. But well, as these events grow bigger and bigger, uh, we decided to also have the elite category as part of the qualifier series. So before every race, you have to choose, okay, I want to go and qualify for the world championships elite or for my age group.
**** - (): Uh, so like a rider being 19 to 34 years old, if he chooses to sign up for the elite category, Of course, with an elite license, then he can only qualify for the elite category at the world championships. If he chooses to qualify or to sign up for the age groups, he can only qualify for his age group. Um, and that's what we decided this year to change.
**** - (): Um, so that the elite category can also have older riders, uh, in their 30s, 35, 40 years old, like Valverde, like, uh, yeah, many of them will retire from road racing and like, uh, Jan Baklans, Nicky Terpstra, uh, yeah, probably also a lot of Americans who are over 35, but still want to race elite at a high level.
**** - (): So, yeah. they didn't get the opportunity to race elite.
[00:30:58] - (): Craig Dalton (host): you'd, you'd may have mentioned this earlier, but just so I understand on race day are the amateur men lining up behind the elite men and starting kind of alongside them.
[00:31:10] - (): Erwin Verveken: at the qualifier events, uh, well, they're different options and we give a lot of freedom to the different organizers to set up or the setup of the start can either be man elite in front, followed by women elite. And then with a small interval, the age groups, uh, or we can have many leads followed by men age groups.
**** - (): Let's say until the age of 50 and then the women elite with all with a small interval, but it depends a bit on the size of the field. And yeah, I think next year our biggest event will be over 2000. So then you have to make some. Rules to, to, to make a fair start and a fair reason. Uh, but we still give the opportunity, um, to riders without a license to qualify for the world championships in their age groups.
**** - (): So it's only for the elite category that you need a license. If you want to race, uh, in the age groups, uh, you're 42 years old and you still want to do world championships. So you can go to a qualifier, take part, um, and then qualify for the world championships. And it's only. to sign up for the world championships that you need a year license, so not to qualify.
[00:32:20] - (): Craig Dalton (host): Gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah. Super exciting. Let's talk about the 2024 Trek UCI gravel world series calendar. You've expanded now to a total, is it a 26 events
[00:32:31] - (): Erwin Verveken: well there's uh in the 25 Qualifying for the 2024 World Championships and one was in October, uh, past the World Championships for the 2025 World Championships. So, uh, but yeah, we have been expanding with, uh, a lot of extra races. So if I look at the list, one extra in Austria, one extra in Italy. Um, I'm running off the list here now on my computer.
**** - (): Uh, there's a new race in Kenya. There's a new race, a second year race in Germany, Switzerland, one in Wales in the UK. Um, and then by the end of the season, also a second new one in Spain. Um, and there will most likely be two. Uh, extra ones being added later, uh, which still are struggling with approvals. Uh, so yeah, there's, uh, there's, it's no secret that there's one candidate in Rwanda where the world championships on the road take place next now in 2025.
**** - (): Um, and, and a second one in Switzerland, uh, they will most likely be added, uh, yeah, in the next few weeks.
[00:33:48] - (): Craig Dalton (host): when you, what does it take for an event to become part of the series and are these events typically events that have run in the past and then embrace the UCI series and come to you and say, yeah, I'd like to be part of it or are they events that happened from the ground up? With the sole intention of being a UCI qualifier.
[00:34:07] - (): Erwin Verveken: It's it's a mix. Um, we have existing events will have been run as a competitive event before we have, uh, fun events like, uh, leisure events like non competitive events with been switched to a competitive event. We have big organizers who have run professional road racing or Gran Fondo racing, like the race in Switzerland is run by the same team who has the UCI Gran Fondo for many years.
**** - (): Um, yeah, so. New events will have all of a sudden started up, um, the second race in, in, uh, Germany, for instance, has run the motorbike marathon world championships five years ago or six years ago, 2017. Uh, so it's a mix. Yeah. Um,
[00:34:59] - (): Craig Dalton (host): And then, you know, obviously there's presumably an application process for the event to become part of the series. Do the events then need to take on that same kind of, uh, men will race by themselves. Women will race by themselves. The distance will be in it within certain parameters. Is that what the, how they have to adopt to the UCI landscape?
[00:35:20] - (): Erwin Verveken: yeah. Well, but as I told, we're not too difficult in these first years. We don't want to, the big criticism we had, uh, especially from, from, uh, from, from the States, uh, in the beginning is, well, you see, I will make it, uh, too much regulations and things like that. Um, well, we decided not to make, uh, any regulation.
**** - (): So the bike is free, of course, no e bike, but, uh, If you want to raise a mountain bike, or a gravel bike, or a road bike, whatever bike you like, the perfect bike that fits best for that course is, is, is, is, is free to use. Uh, distance, well, there's a rule now, I think the minimum distance is 75k and the maximum 200.
**** - (): Um, but for the rest, uh, there's no Regulation on tire width, uh, starting procedure is also quite flexible. Uh, we discuss it with every organizer, but, uh, yeah, we are pretty flexible in, in allowing things.
[00:36:23] - (): Craig Dalton (host): Gotcha. What are the things that, that struck me when I looked at the 2024 calendar? Was we still only have one event here in the United States? Is that intentional? Is it just
[00:36:35] - (): Erwin Verveken: no, no. Because
[00:36:36] - (): Craig Dalton (host): for events? And
[00:36:39] - (): Erwin Verveken: let's say that we would like to have, um, in the, the, the big traditional cycling countries in Europe, two events, like we have now. Two in Belgium, two in Holland, two in Germany, two in Switzerland, two in Italy, two in Spain, uh, only one in France, two in the uk. And then for the big countries like the, the States, Canada or Australia, uh, we can go up to three events.
**** - (): And I've been in very good context with, with potential, uh, uh, yeah. Interested organizers who have started the process of, yeah. Um, yeah, uh, having different online meetings with me, but also of course. On their side, getting the approvals, um, and speaking to their sponsors. And we have been very close with one organizer, um, yeah, to finally become the second qualifier.
**** - (): And I'm sure that in 2025, we will have at least two, probably even three events. Uh, and also in Canada, I'm in touch with a second Canadian event, uh, which is likely to sign. And which I had expected to sign already for 2024. But yeah, the, uh, it's also the same in, in, uh, in Grand Fonda racing. Um, It's, it's, it's more challenging for me to convince, uh, an American organizer to, to join, uh, the series.
**** - (): Um, a part of it is because, well, they, um, there is like, um, let's say, uh, uh, a general criticism in everything which is related to regulations and to federations within the states. That's what I learned from my different contexts. Uh, people don't like to be. To regulate it, although I think we are quite flexible.
**** - (): Um, uh, and, uh, another big thing is in Europe, there is, uh, yeah, for organizing and we're speaking about the financial part of the, of, of, of, of organizing an event is in, in, uh, in the States, there's not such a system of, of government funding. So in Europe, but also in Africa, we have three African events to in Australia, uh, people organizers apply for fundings with the city, the region or an entity from the government, which puts in money to promote events of a high level, but also because they generate a lot of tourism.
**** - (): If I see that this year, the European Championships, we organized ourselves, uh, uh, on the 1st of October. Well, we had 1, 700 riders coming from, I don't know exactly 30 or 35 different countries, but they all stay in the hotel for a few nights because they want to do a record right a few days before they stay after they go and have dinner, they buy a souvenir, they rent a car.
**** - (): So there's a lot of economic return for the region. And that system doesn't really exist in the, in the States, as far as I know, from, from my country.
[00:39:45] - (): Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. You know, it's true. I've talked about this on a number of occasions with different event organizers and it's, it is super interesting. Like there are some rural regions that are trying to reinvent themselves where you do get some of that interplay with the local city government and great deal of enthusiasm to bring riders in because having them.
**** - (): Yeah. A thousand people and their families over a weekend is a great economic boom for those cities. And then in other cases, you have the exact opposite mentality, which is we don't want any more people coming here. We don't need athletes to come into our town. You know, particularly I live in the San Francisco Bay area
[00:40:23] - (): Erwin Verveken: which is really a pity. Um, I think.
[00:40:27] - (): Craig Dalton (host): very much
[00:40:27] - (): Erwin Verveken: Sports, sports in general, especially while I'm living in Belgium, which is probably the cycling country together with Italy and France, we have, uh, every little town has his own club and has at least a competitive rider and this, uh, yeah, uh, you have to drive maximum one hour to do a race on Saturday and Sunday, uh, in every discipline.
**** - (): So that's, that's the good thing about, uh, well. living in a traditional cycling country, but also for organizers. Uh, excuse me. Um, so yeah, the, the, the fundings we have are necessary to set up big events and they are live on television. It's part of our culture. They generate, as I told you, a lot of.
**** - (): Economic return, but not only economic return, it's also, yeah, promotion for the region if you have like a very nice, um, yeah, uh, area with, with a beautiful nature. It's a good promotion for, for, for the region to, to generate also other type of tourism. The race we now organized on the 1st of October, which will also fit us as a first, no, the next world championships next year in Belgium.
**** - (): Yeah, it's, it's a, it's a national park. It's a big forest area. It's being promoted now through these kinds of events and the weeks before, but especially the weeks after. The European Championships we organized there. It was full of people, yeah, uh, hiking, uh, um, riding their bikes. And they also come and then, yeah, uh, it generates tourism and tourism means money for the region.
**** - (): And, um, yeah, that's, that's the good thing about, uh, yeah, cycling in, in, in, in Belgium, for instance.
[00:42:24] - (): Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, yeah, if I was to sort of read the tea leaves, so to speak about the U. S. gravel cycling scene sentiment around the U. C. I. gravel world championships and the qualifier events, I would say, I. I'm reading a market change this year after the event, we sent some of our best athletes over there, there was good exposure.
**** - (): Obviously we wish that the, the women's race was able to be televised, but I understand what happened there, but seeing the scene and seeing the camaraderie of the U S team, I believe has translated to a sort of a general uplifting of the UCI brand within gravel. And this idea that, you know, the racing is different.
**** - (): It's, it's, it's different and unique in its own way. And the experience is quite powerful, you know, to go to a world level event where you're representing your country, whether it's at an elite level or at the master's level, it's just super exciting. And it's a feeling that compares differently to what it feels like to be at Unbound or SBT Gravel.
**** - (): It's its own unique and special thing that I think more US riders are now aspiring to.
[00:43:38] - (): Erwin Verveken: No, I'm sure. So I'm not this. Well, uh, the biggest travel event worldwide and a long tradition and it's, it's, but it's still, uh, I guess a 90 or 95 percent based American event. Participants, uh, they come from many different countries, but The big majority is still American. If you're at the World Championships, you're, first of all, dressed in your national kit, which is fairly prestigious, it's very, yeah.
**** - (): Riders are proud, and especially Americans are proud to wear their national colors. Uh, they ride in a team, they travel towards an event, uh, and then you're next shoulder to shoulder at the start grid, next to a British rider, an Italian, a Slovenian, a Belgian, uh, which creates a special atmosphere. Um, and yeah, the first year there was a lot of criticism on the course.
**** - (): Um, I agree for a part of it. I was, I wasn't the best course. I was not also, also not a hundred percent convinced on the course this year. It was pure promotion for gravel. Uh, and, and The fact that, uh, yeah, also your best gravel rider, Keegan Swanson, was there. Yeah, it was also a good promotion for our world championships.
**** - (): But, yeah, in the end, I'm sure that let him develop a bit longer in an international gravel scene. He'll probably, yeah, he can win the world championships for sure. And then he would be a great ambassador, uh, wearing the, the, the, the, the, the, the rainbow jersey also in the state. So, and our biggest goal is to still, because we have been in talks with USA Cycling to bring the, the World Championships, uh, to, to the States.
**** - (): And there were some very interested, uh, organizers, uh, we were very close to a deal, uh, in the first year, but unfortunately, well, then, uh, they were a bit hesitating and, and decided to skip. For the next few years, but then given the very big explosion of gravel racing in Europe, all of a sudden, yeah, it was awarded until now, uh, 20, 28.
**** - (): Uh, so it's, uh, uh, yeah, they missed an opportunity. Um, Yeah.
[00:45:51] - (): Craig Dalton (host): Have you, so we know that 2024 will be in Belgium. Have you announced where the roadmap goes in the subsequent years?
[00:45:59] - (): Erwin Verveken: 2025 is France, Nice. So the South of France, uh, 2026 is, is, uh, the seven event in Western Australia. Uh, which is now already part of the, of the, of the UCR gravel. We'll see is 2027 is again, the combined world championships of the UCR, which now took place in Glasgow this past August, and they will then also have gravel.
**** - (): Which is again in France, so the Haut Savoie region, which is the Alps. It's, uh, if you see the mountain stages of the Tour de France, so that area, there will be a lot of climbing. Um, that's 2027, and then 2028 is Alula in Saudi Arabia. Uh, which is a big sports city, and they have a big and huge budget, uh, to promote cycling, and especially gravel is one of their key.
**** - (): So, um, and then 2029, I know there's a lot of interest. Um, um, and, uh, yeah, hopefully one day I'm sure that if we have a very good candidate in the States, uh, the UCI would be very happy to, to, to have the world championships awarded to, to the States, uh, uh, because, well, in the end, the history of gravel racing is, is, is in, in the U S Midwestern.
[00:47:18] - (): Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Erwin, thank you so much for the time. I appreciate learning more about UCI's approach and everything you're doing to promote the sport. Very much appreciate it.
[00:47:28] - (): Erwin Verveken: Well, it's a pleasure. It's, uh, also it was nice talking to an American audience. Uh, uh, so, uh, yeah, happy to, to explain what we are doing and what our plans are for the future years.
[00:47:42] - (): Craig Dalton (host): Amazing. Thanks again.
[00:47:44] - (): Erwin Verveken: Thank you. -
Billy Sinkford, Vice President of Echos Communications, discusses the genesis of the MADE show and its impact on the handmade bike community. He shares his experience as a former bike messenger and how it led him to work in the urban cycling industry. Billy also highlights the importance of brand representation and storytelling in the cycling industry. He provides insights into the success of the first MADE show and gives a preview of what to expect in the upcoming shows in Portland and Melbourne. Don't miss this exciting conversation about the future of the handmade bike community.
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Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos:
[00:00:00] Craig Dalton: Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport
I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist.
[00:00:29] Craig Dalton (host): This week on the show. I welcome Billy. Sinford from the maid bicycle show in Portland, Oregon. You may recall if you're a listener from last year that I attended the show. In 2023 and had dozens of interviews with fantastic frame builders from around the country. I super enjoyed the show, the experience, the overall vibe of the show.
So I was thrilled to get some communication from echos communications that the show is on. Again for 2024, I wanted to get a little bit of the backstory and inspiration for the show. And learn some secrets about the upcoming show in 2024. Little did I know at the end of this episode, I was going to learn about yet another exciting new development. I'll leave you with that.
And we'll wait till the end, until we find out that secret from Billy. But before we get started, I do need to thank this week. Sponsor a G one. Taking care of your health. Isn't always easy, but it should at least be simple. That's why for me, for the last decade, I've been drinking age one every day, no exceptions.
It's just one scoop mixed in water once a day, every day. And it makes me feel energized and ready to take on the day. That's because each serving of AIG one delivers my daily dose of vitamins minerals and pre and probiotics and more, it's a powerful, healthy habit that also is powerfully simple.
Okay, let me go back a decade and explain why. became an essential part of my daily routine. I come to recognize that nutritionally, I just wasn't covering my bases with my diets. I was often cutting corners and just not getting the nutrients and vitamins I was looking for. I started thinking about taking a multivitamin or multiple multivitamins. And that didn't drive with me as well.
I knew I wasn't going to be able to maintain consistency. Without something simple in my life. But with ag one, I discovered that it's a simple powder that's mixed with water. Can do it very quickly. And it has everything and more than I was looking for. So I introduced into my life and I haven't gone back. Over a decade, which is pretty incredible for a product like this.
So if there's one product I had to recommend to elevate your health that's ag one. And that's why I've partnered with them for so long. I think they've been part of the show for over three years now. So, if you want to take ownership of your health, start with a G one. Tri AIG one and get a free one-year supply of vitamin D plus K2. And five free AIG one travel packs with your first purchase. Exclusively at drink, AIG one.com/the gravel ride.
That's drink AIG one.com/the gravel ride to check it out today. Without behind us, let's jump right into my conversation with Billy.
[00:03:24] Craig Dalton (host): Billy, welcome to the show.
[00:03:25] Billy Sinkford: Thank you for having me, Craig. It's a pleasure to be here.
[00:03:29] Craig Dalton (host): I know it's a busy week for you guys at MADE, so I appreciate you making the time and I'm excited to kind of just talk about the show. I did a bunch of episodes and Certainly had a bunch of conversations with frame builders during my visit to made in 2023.
So I'm excited to just talk about the plans for 2024, but to set the stage for the conversation, we always like to kind of roll back a little bit and just understand, how did you develop a passion for the bike? Did you grow up riding? So why don't you start off by just letting us know where you grew up and how you discovered the bike and how that journey ultimately took you to kind of being in the industry as a professional.
[00:04:10] Billy Sinkford: Well, first off, thanks for coming to MAID in 2023. It was awesome to have you and love the videos that you put out surrounding it. And we're stoked for 2024. We'll get, we'll get there though. I was a bike messenger in Boston in the late 90s and early 2000s. Uh, that was my first job working on the bike, uh, all day, uh, rain or snow, uh, in Boston, and did that, uh, for quite some time.
Eventually ended up moving to San Francisco, uh, where I also was a, a bike messenger after a brief stint, uh, in divinity school, uh, which I decided was not, not for me. And from there, I started working with chrome industries and started working in kind of the urban cycling field of things. And, you know, for lack of a better term, I weaseled and worked my way into a job at chrome and.
Um, my, the director of marketing at Chrome, Rob Reedy, who is my business partner at Echos. He's the CEO of Echos and I'm the VP, uh, gave me a chance and gave me a job and we worked together for years over at Chrome and eventually, uh, founded Echos Communications, which is a PR and marketing firm for, Active outdoors, uh, with a huge focus on cycling and I am fortunate enough to be the vice president of that and manage, uh, manage our cycling stuff that echoes communications.
So that, that's
[00:05:47] Craig Dalton (host): how I got there. I'm curious if, if you go back to those days as a courier, my experience with the courier community there, there were certainly some couriers who were bike racers, bike lovers, lovers of all things, bikes, and they discovered curry being a courier as a vocation that allowed them to, you know, work on their bike and stay fit.
I've also heard from many of those same. Bike racer couriers that it's a horrible way to train because it's so hard on your body. So I'm just curious, were you, you know, part of that courier culture and the bike was a work mechanism and you fell in love with that, you know, the fixie kind of culture, or was there another thread of your passion for the bike that was mountain biking or road racing at the time?
[00:06:35] Billy Sinkford: When I was in Boston, it was definitely about the culture and community, and the bike was just the tool that allowed for all of that to happen. When I moved out to San Francisco, the company that I worked for, Godspeed Courier, we had a race team. I was partially in charge of all the sponsorships and helped out a lot of the company.
Definitely, uh, started wearing spandex and shaving our legs and going and doing local crits. And at that time road races, it was all road, uh, for me back then in the San Francisco Bay area and competed at all kinds of road races, uh, underneath the Godspeed courier banner. But I was, uh, I was a heavy dude.
I still am a, I'm a big guy and I never, uh, I went out and just. Beat the crap out of everybody for the first 20 miles and then basically did an 80 mile bike ride by myself after the rest of the race, but I absolutely loved it. And it was a different kind of community and that definitely carried over.
And, you know, I certainly by no means of. Kept up with it or pinned a number in a long time. I did last year for a minute, but, uh, definitely still enjoy being sometimes at the pointy end of the spear. Um, but yeah, messengering definitely brought me into that race culture. And then that carried over into my time in the industry, without a doubt.
[00:07:55] Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, obviously like Chrome had its parts of his origin from that culture and that vibe, that commuter, worker, the, you know, the well constructed bags and later the shoes and clothing that they brought into the mix as you kind of represented them and were kind of earning your chops on the business side of the bike industry.
What were you learning in that time that you kind of took forward about how brands need to be represented to cyclists in order to grow and be relevant?
[00:08:28] Billy Sinkford: Working in the urban cycling side of things first was, was really interesting and I think it relates to stuff in the handmade market. I think it relates to cycling as a whole because we, and sometimes think of ourselves as this huge entity, right?
In reality, cycling is a niche sport and a niche hobby. Uh, so looking at it through that lens and then knowing that urban cycling was a niche within. That niche, uh, we called it don't Timbuktu it back in the day Timbuktu started stopping selling messenger bags and started selling travel luggage and briefcases for a, for a brief minute.
And at Chrome, we just made sure we didn't Timbuktu it. And we were trying to stay. With the core sponsoring messenger races, making sure that we're not only sponsored them, but we're actively present at the races and engaging with the community and bringing a cool vibe and having a good time. And that I think has carried over into everything that we've done at echoes and hopefully what we've brought to, uh, the cycling community at large.
And that's the present. Be there and and be a part of the community.
[00:09:42] Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, I think there's so much to obviously the storytelling of these brands that is so critical and how they resonate with fans and consumers of these products
[00:09:55] Billy Sinkford: and it's really easy to lose it quite quickly. So, you know, having a good mission statement, understanding what your brand is, and actually standing by that and standing behind it, standing behind the community that you're, you're making products for, and hopefully.
An active part of that community. Do those, you're, you're going to be on the side of right. Yeah, you
[00:10:17] Craig Dalton (host): mentioned some of the work you do at echoes and just to set the stage for when we later talk about the maid show. Can you talk about some of the clients you've had the privilege of working with over the years?
And then we'll get into what was the genesis behind the idea for
[00:10:34] Billy Sinkford: made? Sure. We have had the privilege and pleasure and honest. I'd say honor of working with a lot of really amazing brands and folks within those brands. We started definitely on the urban cycling tip, but with that, we also, you know, feedback sports and, and mission workshop where our two first clients as an agency.
Uh, we launched and ran the Levi's Commuter Program, uh, for the first three years of doing that and did all of the global or national events rather, uh, bike shops and community building stuff around that. And that was super fun and and rad to, to work along the Levi's, uh, Levi's crew and their team.
Blackburn. Uh, we've worked with Greg Lamond. Uh, currently we've got an awesome, I guess, what's most relevant to the handmade community. Mosaic cycles, Argonaut cycles, Lowe, uh, we're currently, uh, and have been for quite some time working with Moots, Paul Components, Paul's a dear friend of mine, and we worked with him for several years, Abby Bike Tools, so everything, uh, we brought together.
Bosch to market here in the United States a couple months before Shimano got got into the e bike game here Uh worked with a ton of e bike brands So companies large and small we are just started working with Campagnolo, uh, which is phenomenal and we're really thrilled about that we've had the pleasure of working with over 100 bike brands and i've gotten to Floyd's of Leadville and Floyd Landis, dear friend, and we managed all of the, uh, PR and some of the marketing for all of his CBD stuff and, uh, and his Floyd's 5 cannabis as well.
So, gotten to work alongside people that I idolized when I was a messenger and had them become not only business associates, but folks that I call friends. Um, so it's been, it's been a wild journey and, uh, and we're still, we're still, I think, just getting started.
[00:12:36] Craig Dalton (host): Amazing. We were talking a little bit offline about the North American Handmade Bike Show, and it sounds like you've had a relationship, understandably so, with the brands you tended to represent with that show for, for many years.
Can you just talk about kind of your memories of that show and the place it kind of held in the industry
[00:12:56] Billy Sinkford: for you? Oh, I loved nabs. Absolutely loved it. Uh, used to go just as a, you know, marketing and PR guy for the brands that we worked with. Uh, so always had 5 or 6 builders or brands, uh, on the show floor that we were working with.
Uh, we did, uh, for a brief period of time for a little under 2 years, actually manage all the PR for the show itself when it was in Salt Lake City. Uh, obviously the show is not around anymore and, uh, Don and I. I've had a tumultuous relationship throughout the last, uh, 15 years for sure. Um, but. What Don did on the North American Handmade Bike Show, I think was phenomenal for the builder community and nothing that we're doing, I think, would be possible without the groundwork that went into that.
Both from Don, so kudos to him, and then also the builder community for showing up and being present. You know, being willing to put their energy and effort into something that has turned out to be really, really great or for the builder community. So I think the show was great. It was sad to see it go, but it also gave us the opportunity to start made, which is something that 10.
I mean, it's been 10 years plus, since we've been kind of talking about potentially. Helping put together a different version of a handmade bike show, a more modern version of it. And with Navs no longer taking place, the builder community asked us if we would step up to the plate and make it happen. We were fortunate enough to be able to.
To, to do that, so it's been, it's been pretty cool.
[00:14:39] Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, you know, obviously, like, with NABS going away, there was this pent up demand and enthusiasm for the builders to get together. To your point, NABS was just such a great gathering of such a diverse group of artisan frame builders that was so different than any other bicycle show that was around at the time.
When you started to see, like, NABS is not there. We are seeing this opportunity. We're going to take this mantle. It seems like it would be a daunting challenge to go from that idea to actually producing made. What was the decision making process? What did that look like for you? Or did you ask yourself what?
If we can just get 20 brands to commit early, I feel like there's enough momentum that we can do this. I'm just curious to get into your, your mind and your colleagues minds about when was the go, no go decision and what was that process like?
[00:15:38] Billy Sinkford: Well, COVID, we had wanted to do this before COVID. Luckily, we did not pull the trigger on, uh, any form of trade show prior to that, because that would have definitely changed things.
Uh, You know, nobody could travel. Nobody would have been able to show up. Uh, the community support, uh, my partner, Rob and I, uh, spoke to a bunch of builders, spoke to a bunch of brands, uh, brands that support the builder community. So Chris Kang specifically being 1 of them who we also we do, uh, manage their PR and everybody.
One after one, people said, yes, please do this. And yes, we'll help support it. And there weren't any nose and we just kept hearing. Yes. So we started looking at it from a logistic standpoint and realize that that we could pull this off and that it could be awesome. Originally, it was supposed to be entirely outside because of the pandemic.
And we didn't know. What that was going to look like and we kind of wanted to safeguard the show and there's a very, very brief window in Portland where the weather is fantastic. Uh, and we, we've got it right now or made it was. Wildly unseasonably hot during the, uh, the first year of the show, but, uh, the venue that we found is phenomenal, uh, and old abandoned shipyard, uh, I mean, you, you saw it yourself.
It's, it's perfect for the handmade, uh, market probably wouldn't work for. A bike show where track and specialized and giant wanted to show up and do their things. But for those that are actually working with their hands and, you know, making metal more metal, uh, super cool environment, uh, for them to be in and the venue lined up and after that, you know, that's it.
I won't say that all the pieces magically fell together. There was a lot of hard work from the entire team that made behind the scenes, but, uh, it came together and it, you know, hard work and then the support of the builder community, uh, really brought it all together and year one was fantastic. I mean, I know you didn't get to go for the consumer days, but we very purposefully had time so that you were able to be there and spend time creating content and talking with builders and the.
The builder community hadn't been together in, in years because of the pandemic and the lack of nabs even before that. So we carved out a little bit of extra time for that and that was super fun and got to take 200 builders, media and industry people and my favorite ride through Forest Park, uh, which was phenomenal.
So it wasn't just a show itself. I think it was the entire experience of being in Portland together and it was really cool.
[00:18:25] Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, absolutely. We got the food trucks in the back parking lot. Everything was just a lot of fun and I totally agree. It was, you know, nobody had to feel awkward about the style of booth they created or what they were bringing because it wasn't this super polished, super dome of convention centers or anything like that that we saw at Interbike.
It was really, it felt very native to the handmade bicycle community for
[00:18:51] Billy Sinkford: sure. And I think this year, you know, a lot of the, I would say 90 percent of the exhibitors, you know, we made a few videos, we, folks understood what they were walking into, to an extent. But it's one thing to see it online and read about it.
It's another thing to actually be in the venue. And now, most of the exhibitors are coming back for, for year two, and they all know what things look like. So I think it'll be really cool to see how people take the space. And make their little, their portion of it their own and work with it. So, I think year one was rad and there were some folks that had some killer, killer booth designs that you would never, ever in your wildest dreams see at Eurobike or Interbike or Sea Otter.
Um, and I think it worked out great that we weren't entirely outside because looking at some Consumer facing shows, which are all awesome, but it's a sea of 10 by 10 and 10 by 20 pop up tents, and we encourage people to bring tents so they've got their branding, but some of the cooler booths were, you know, handmade from wood that people brought with them, and it was super neat to see not only the folks showing, It's amazing work that they're doing, uh, but then also, you know, building a booth out that reflects that was, was
[00:20:04] Craig Dalton (host): really unique.
A hundred percent. It's just sort of, you know, everybody in the handmade community is so creative and just to allow them to have that freedom to develop their own displays. Super cool to see. And super fun for me to see some of the frame builders that I hadn't seen in a while, but also like a whole, probably 30 percent of them I'd never heard of before.
And it was just great. Having that opportunity to get their point of view to see their manufacturing techniques to see how, you know, they're taking, you know, in the instance of maybe frameworks taking aerospace tooling and machines that aren't always available to other artisans and using that because they have access to it to create just kind of a unique.
Process for creating a bike. Super fascinating to talk to guys like that. There
[00:20:53] Billy Sinkford: were, I have been, because we've been extremely deep and the handmade community for a long time, and I'm fortunate to call a lot of these folks, my friends, and prior to putting on made, I really thought that I had a pretty good grasp of what was going on in the handmade community and who was who.
And one of the biggest things that we did with the show was offering subsidized space. Making sure that bike flights was helping with discounted shipping, uh, there was not like a large host hotel that people felt they needed to stay at. So the show became really accessible and a lot of the younger builders and builders that did not show up at nabs came and exhibited, uh, made.
Also, some of the, the legends, my generation, not, not to totally date myself, but they're not spring chickens anymore. And some of them are hanging up the torch, uh, and, or don't want to stand on their feet for, for three days. Um, they've, they've passed that. So having a lot of the younger builders and new builders at the show and not having the new builder row be In the absolute back of the hall, like it was at NABs, I made sure we were dispersing, you know.
That you, a new builder was directly next to an established builder, and unless you're super deep in the industry, there was no way to tell the difference. You walked up to pretty much anybody exhibiting, and you were there to hear their story and not, uh, I don't know. It was really, it was cool. And I had to not, I did not spend a lot of time looking at the bikes during the show, which was really, really hard.
I love taking photographs. I spent a lot of time. Documenting bikes in my free time, and I purposefully didn't bring a camera to the show and tried not to ogle the work during the show. Late, late at night after everybody had gone home, that's when I did it. But, uh, it was just phenomenal craftsmanship throughout the entire haul.
It was awesome.
[00:23:04] Craig Dalton (host): I was there for obviously the media day and partway into the, the consumer day started, I think, around noon on the Friday and I was there till about two. So I just started to get the first wave of consumers. What was that like, you know, midday Saturday or whenever peak traffic was, if you were there as a consumer,
[00:23:25] Billy Sinkford: there were a couple of minutes where we were, we were pushing the limits of what that all could do for sure.
Uh, we have far more people than we expected. Uh, It was awesome. I mean, just so full, uh, unfortunately, extremely hot, and we had fans running like crazy and, uh, ran out to get every little bit of water that we could. Unfortunately, there were forest fires, uh, in other parts of Oregon and Washington, and all the water trucks and everything that we had kind of helped get together was unavailable.
Um, but we made it work. Uh, there were A couple thousand consumers in that hall on Saturday. We had over 5, 000 people come through between when it opened to the public on Friday and when we closed the doors for tear down, uh, on Sunday. So for year one, that was unbelievable, but the energy was super high and people were there.
They were talking with builders, looking at bikes. Uh, it was, it was really cool to watch. It was fun to have a quiet moment where. Media industry folks, we all got to kind of hug and high five and, and then it was when we opened the gates on Friday, it was, uh, it's a whole, whole nother, it was almost two shows in one,
[00:24:39] Craig Dalton (host): quite frankly.
Yeah, certainly a three day grind for those builders to. Talk to everybody and keep their energy high.
[00:24:49] Billy Sinkford: And we're, we're actually changing the format of the show this year. So we had a full day and a half that was for media and industry to kind of catch up and we did a poll of all the builders and brands after the show, and it was honestly split about 50 50 as to whether or not people wanted that extra time.
Or we would do just a half day of media hours before we opened to the public. For the second year of the show, we're going to. Give it a shot the other way and do, uh, Friday morning will be just media and industry and then again, we'll open to the public and do Saturday and Sunday, but that will make the show shorter and for a lot of these builders, regardless of what size or scale operation they are every day that they're not.
At the shop, that's a bike that's not going out to the customer, and this is not a large frame, a large bicycle company, for that matter, where it's happening, no matter whether the director of marketing is on the floor, like you're there talking to the builder, and that person is not making a frame for a customer, so we're trying to be cognizant.
Excuse me, cognizant of that and do everything that we're going to do, but keep it a little bit shorter so that they can get back to the shop and make sure that they're doing what they need to do for their customers.
[00:26:06] Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. Do you have a sense on the consumer side in terms of where people were traveling in from if they were obviously Portland's host to such a great community?
I'm sure there was tons of Portland locals who could drive in and enjoy the show. It was a first year show, but did you get a sense that people were flying in to
[00:26:24] Billy Sinkford: experience this? From the moment we announced that we had folks from all over the world that said that they were coming. There were people from Japan, Australia, uh, Europe coming from all over a lot of folks from the East Coast.
I think. California, Portland, I mean, we're dominant without a doubt because it's very easy for them to travel or much easier for them to travel to the show. But some of the first emails that we got after announcing the show were from fans of custom bikes and people that own custom bikes that wanted to come and they were going to make this their vacation from Japan, Australia.
And it was. Really rad to have this be a global show, not only reflected in the builders that were there because we also had builders from all over the world. This was not just Portland and California builders. We had folks from the east coast and uh, from all over the place. And this year for 2024, uh, the roster of builders and brands that are attending reflects that even more deeply.
Folks all coming back and then new folks coming from Australia and we've got folks coming from the west or east coast rather, that came in. Kind of peep the show a little bit to make sure that it was something that they wanted to come to and now, uh, now they're, they're coming out for year two and, and are going to be part of the show.
[00:27:42] Craig Dalton (host): That's a good segue into anything you'd want to highlight for year two. Any changes? Are there going to be more, more booths, more people? What, what can we expect in 2024?
[00:27:53] Billy Sinkford: Uh, more explosions, more people, hopefully no explosions. Uh, uh, I think we've got certainly more builders, more brands. We had to extend the floor plan.
So there's going to be an outdoor area as well as the indoor area this year. More food carts, more coffee. We'll still have the beer garden over there. And we're going to make sure to pop a little shade on top of that so that people can sit out there, even if it is a little bit hot. Uh, but I think there just are gonna be a variety of builders from even farther, uh, across the world.
And I'm, the coolest thing that I've seen is we made it a big point to have subsidized space and to invite builders from all over the place and to make sure that if they needed help financially. That we could still have them at the show. We wanted to make sure that the builder community was represented as a whole.
And there are builders that showed up and took those subsidized spaces that are now getting 10 by 20s at the show. Uh, that are saying that it was so amazing that they want to come back and have an even larger presence. So that to me was the coolest part is the show and the model works there. You know.
That, that really warmed my heart quite a bit to see that happen in several instances.
[00:29:12] Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, that says a lot. Tell us the dates of the Portland, Oregon show and where people can find out more information about it.
[00:29:20] Billy Sinkford: Uh, yeah. Made. bike is our website. You don't need a dot com. We've got dot bike. So just made.
bike and we will. Uh, make a lot of noise when we start selling, uh, consumer facing tickets for the show. Uh, the floor plan is ostensibly sold out and I still have a bit more of the wait list, uh, to work through. So, uh, if you're interested in, uh, being a part of the show, definitely get in touch sooner rather than later so we can see what we can do.
Uh, but it'll be this summer, uh, August 23rd through 25th in Portland, Oregon at Zydell Yards, which is right on the Portland waterfront just outside of downtown. Uh, and you can find us on Instagram at made. bike as well. And is
[00:30:06] Craig Dalton (host): there a risk that consumer tickets may sell out? Do people need to get on a mailing list or become aware pretty early in your
[00:30:13] Billy Sinkford: process?
Uh, it certainly can't hurt. Uh, we do have fire marshal limits that we're working within, uh, but I think we can very easily accommodate double the number of, uh, consumers that we have, uh, last year or so. We're hoping that people buy them in advance one because then it's less paper. It's a lot easier and we're able to get people through quicker, but we have not announced when we're going to start selling tickets to the public yet.
We'll wait a little bit. Probably as the snow and rains start to start to thaw and stop falling here. We'll start thinking about it.
[00:30:47] Craig Dalton (host): That makes sense. Well, everybody go over to made that bike and definitely get it on your radar for next year is a phenomenal fun show. So many beautiful bikes out there.
And for those of you in an entirely different part of the world. I think we've got some breaking news. We can talk about now. Billy about another
[00:31:05] Billy Sinkford: made show. Yeah, so this year MADE is expanding our footprint a little bit, and we are headed to Australia. Actually, we're headed to Australia before the main MADE show here in the United States.
And it's going to be held in Melbourne. We've got a wonderful director of show, Andy White from Fixo, who is a longstanding friend of mine personally and of the agency as a whole. We've worked with him on a number of projects throughout the year, and he is extremely dedicated to documenting and being a part of the handmade culture in Australia.
And we've already got commitments from an interest from Bomb Prova, Partington Wheels, the Lost Workshop, Delo Craft, and many, many more. And that is gonna be taking place June 28th and 29th, uh, at, uh, Darin, uh, verum, uh, just outside of Melbourne. And that also is coinciding with, uh, Andy's, uh, LAR. He has a large event called the the Melbourne.
Uh, which takes place on the cobblestones, uh, in, in Melbourne, which I've never personally got a chance to, to witness. I've only witnessed it, uh, via the magic of the internet and I'm looking forward to going over and being a part of that event and then, uh, being present, uh, checking out the builder community in Australia.
[00:32:33] Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, that's super exciting. I'll be curious to see if it's drawing builders from other parts of Asia, um, into that show and what a fascinating view you'll have to kind of go over and see that community and how it differs and how it's similar to what we have here in North America.
[00:32:54] Billy Sinkford: I think there's some things that are universal to a degree, but.
Every country is different. Uh, every builder is doing things differently. So, we're really looking forward to going over and hearing all the stories and seeing the work. I do think that there will be a larger draw. I think that. The USA show will always be the largest made show, uh, just because we're able to draw from, I think that we've got an awful lot of media here.
We've got a really captive audience, uh, but Australia is quite far away as I am soon to find out on that plane ride. I've heard from people. Uh, so I think there are a lot of, a lot of builders that, you know, having a maid in Australia will give them a chance to get global exposure and connect with media and consumers in a way.
Uh, That they haven't before and maybe there are some builders here from the United States that in 2025 decide that they're going to do both or maybe a builder here in the United States has already got great relationships with their customer base and the shops that they work with, uh, here and they want to go dip their toes into another country and see what's going on over there.
And I think this will, this will give builders an opportunity to get even more exposure for
[00:34:10] Craig Dalton (host): the work that they're doing. Yeah, it's super exciting and congratulations on the launch of that event. I can't wait to hear all about it. I can't wait to see you in Portland again this summer. Definitely one of my favorite shows that I attended as a podcaster and just overall enthusiast.
So thanks for all your energy, Billy, you put into the industry as a whole and into the made show.
[00:34:33] Billy Sinkford: It is my pleasure. Uh, we're really looking forward to MADE this year, uh, beyond looking forward to it. We're, we're thrilled. So it's hard to, hard to keep the excitement contained some days. I get to talk with so many cool people all the time.
And it's going to be a rad year for MADE and a rad year for the handmade world as a whole. And thank you for taking the time to, to chat with me, Craig. Of course. My
[00:34:55] Craig Dalton (host): pleasure. Cheers. Cheers.
That's going to do it for this week's edition of the gravel ride podcast. Big, thanks to Billy for coming onto the show. Super excited about made 20, 24 in Portland and super excited for those of you down under in Australia. Perhaps my cousin Teebo to enjoy the made Australia experience in 2024. Also big, thanks to our friends at AIG one.
Remember, check out, drink Agee. Dot com slash the gravel ride for those free travel packs and free supply of vitamin D plus K2. I hope you're doing well in 2024. And until next time. Here's to finding some dirt under your wheels.
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Laura Wisner joins the podcast to discuss Kowtown Gravel, a gravel cycling event that takes place in Kremmling, Colorado. She shares her background in cycling and how she found her way to gravel cycling. Laura talks about her connection to Kremmling and the beautiful gravel roads in the area. She describes the different terrains and challenges that riders can expect on the Kowtown Gravel course. Laura also discusses the spirit of the event and how it is a fundraiser for the community gym in Kremmling. She invites cyclists to come and experience the unique gravel roads and welcoming community of Kowtown Gravel.
Key Takeaways: - Kowtown Gravel is a gravel cycling event that takes place in Kremmling, Colorado. - The event offers three course lengths: the Bull (90 miles), the Cow (60 miles), and the Calf (35 miles). - The course features a mix of smooth gravel roads, chunkier sections, and climbs. - Kowtown Gravel is a fundraiser for the community gym floor in Kremmling. - The event welcomes both competitive riders and those who want to enjoy a scenic ride.
Kowtown Gravel Website
Episode Sponsor: Dynamic Cyclist (code TheGravelRide for 15% off)
Support the Podcast
Join The Ridership
Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos:
[00:00:00] Craig Dalton: Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport
I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist.
[00:00:26] Craig Dalton (host): This week on the podcast. We welcome Laura Wizner to the show to talk about cow town, gravel Cowtown gravel is a Colorado event happening on July 6th, 2024 in Kremmling, Colorado. Kremmling as a town you might've been through on your way to Steamboat Springs, but it's a town. The race organizers want you to remember as the gravel is fantastic as are the views. Laura's come on to talk to us about all you can expect from Cowtown, gravel, and an interesting story about how she became familiar with crumbling in the first place. I hope you enjoy this episode.
Before we jump in, I did need to thank this week. Sponsor, dynamic cyclist. Dynamic cyclist has been producing, cycling, specific stretching and strengthening routines for many years. Now. They've got a vast library of content, both focused on you as a general cyclist, but also many different programs based on specific areas of weakness. It's during this period every year in the winter that I start thinking about how limiting my personal low back problems have made my cycling.
So I love to dig into the dynamic cyclist. Low back routine six week program, just focusing on getting those stretches needed, to get deep into everything related to my hip flexors and lower back. It's a great reminder that stretching only takes a short amount of time for having a huge impact. All their videos are no longer than 15 minutes.
So none of us has any excuses not to squeeze them into our winter routines to get us prepped for this season. I say that, and I'm not going to lie. I miss a day or two here or there, but it's on my mind, frankly, constantly this idea that stretching is probably one of the most important things I can do to set myself up for success in 2024.
So go on over to dynamic cyclists.com. They've got a seven day free trial. So it's easy to see if, if it's something that you would like, they're also offering our listeners a 15% off discount on any of their programs. Which include either monthly or annual billing. So it's pretty flexible. If you're someone who just wants to do some routines in the winter, for example, anyway, head on over to dynamics, cyclists.com.
Use the coupon code, the gravel ride, or follow the link in the show notes to get directly over there. With that business behind us, let's jump right into my conversation with Laura.
[00:03:01] Craig Dalton: Laura, welcome to the show.
[00:03:02] Laura Wisner: I'm so glad that you have me here. Thank you.
[00:03:05] Craig Dalton: Where are you sitting today?
[00:03:07] Laura Wisner: I am based in Boulder,
[00:03:08] Craig Dalton: Colorado. Okay, and I'm excited to get you on to talk about Cowtown Gravel, which is not in Boulder, Colorado. So why don't you just set the stage by telling us where Cowtown Gravel takes place, and why don't you drop the, the month it takes place as well.
[00:03:24] Laura Wisner: Okay, so Cowtown Gravel is in Kremling, Colorado. Um, it's going to take place for the second time on July 6, 2024. And Kremling, for those who have been to Steamboat, if you are coming from the Front Range Denver area, and you get a high 70, you go, um, north, we are the crook in the road in between Silverthorne and Steamboat Springs.
Um, so Kremling is that, that little town that everybody has to go through, but may not have ever stopped there.
[00:04:02] Craig Dalton: Yeah, I think as we discovered offline on my way to steamboat gravel, I definitely went through Kremling. I lived in Boulder, and if you had asked me to point to it on a map prior to this conversation, I wouldn't have been able to do it.
But it's clear from my driving through that area, it's absolutely a beautiful part of the state. So we'll get into why and how the event got started. But first, let's just learn a little bit more about you and how you found your way to cycling and gravel cycling specifically.
[00:04:31] Laura Wisner: Yeah, well, I mean, old, old school is Anybody who grew up in upper Midwest gravel road when they were kids, because not all roads were, um, paved back then.
So, I mean, I started as a kid, just getting on my bike when you're up at our, um, vacation cottage and just take off for hours and hours on a gravel road, you know, no cell phones, parents have no idea where I was, um, no helmet, probably riding in cutoff jeans or something like that. But, um, you know, those are the, the good old days and then as I became an adult and got into, um, riding proper, uh, you know, got into road riding, mountain biking, cyclocross, and, um, the blessing of living in Boulder County is that we have these amazing gravel roads and, you know, people ask, well, why are you riding gravel?
And I liken it to, if you live along one of the coasts, You learn to surf because it's right there and you should take advantage of it. So living here in Boulder County, it's crazy not to have a gravel bike or at least, you know, change out your wheels so you can get on our back roads and just go for miles and miles and hours and hours.
So
[00:05:50] Craig Dalton: yeah, I'm thinking back to which probably my first quote unquote gravel event was Boulder Rue Bay. In the early 90s when I lived in Boulder, and I certainly rode that on 23 C road tires. There's no doubt about it in my mind. Yeah, and
[00:06:07] Laura Wisner: with my, my cycling friends and club, you know, we would, you know, even 10 years ago, we, a lot of us were just riding on gravel roads with, you know, road tires, um, and that was okay because they're, they're so smooth around here.
And if you got a little chunky, well, I hope you're by handling slower. Up to the challenge, but, you know, this, uh, gravel revolution happened and all of a sudden you have all these options, um, not only in tires, but all of a sudden frames and, you know, it just became this. Um, the celebration of all things gravel.
And so now it's just another bike in your quiver. Um, so yeah, we did that too.
[00:06:54] Craig Dalton: As gravel started to become popularized and specific bikes started to arrive. Were you someone who found your way to gravel events outside of Boulder County? Yeah, you know,
[00:07:05] Laura Wisner: I did the very first, um, seaboat gravel. Um, did that for a couple of years and at that point I was racing cross and so what I would do is use my cross bike and just switch out.
Um, the wheels, but, you know, the one by there's some pretty good grades around here. If you head up the mountains straight from Boulder, um, you can go up to Gold Hill or Ward. Um, it's a little hard on a 1 by, you know, that's a pretty good workout in and of itself. And geometry is not quite right, so it.
Became a love of mine to the point where, okay. I'm going all in, I'm buying the frame, you know, the specific. Um, gravel bike and got rid of the road frame and. And then got rid of the cross bike and gravel is pretty much it at this
[00:08:00] Craig Dalton: point. Nice. And so let's talk about your connection to Kremling, Colorado, and how you became familiar with the area in the first place.
[00:08:10] Laura Wisner: Yeah. So Kremling, other being the, other than being the, uh, the bend in the road as you go up the steamboat, it's the, uh, West Grams County area. So people know Winter Park. Winter Park is. East Grand, Kremling is West Grand, and so I've been in Grand County quite a bit, skiing and cycling and things like that, but my husband has a family practice position, and for five years, he was Kremling's town doc, and so we kept our family home base here in Boulder, and he would go up to Kremling midweek, and it's a small community, it's predominantly a ranching community, And he got to know the people and, um, I got to slowly know more of the people and when I would go up to visit him midweek.
We would go for gravel rides, and I was just blown away by roads that I didn't know existed. Um, the quality of the gravel was incredible. Um, and I had ridden, you know, boulder roads, I had ridden around steamboats. Um, and, and crumbling is just unsurpassed as far as the quality of its gravel. And the roads that we rode for three hours, and I think one truck passed us.
Um, so, um, being part of Cowtown Gravel is just my way of giving back to that community and being able to lend my excitement for what the area has to offer to other folks who love gravel as much as I do.
[00:09:51] Craig Dalton: I've gotten many questions about Cowtown Gravel, but I have to take us on a quick detour because I'm curious.
I had recently, I'm curious about becoming the town doctor for a community. Is that was your husband sort of offered employment at the city or county level to come and be a physician for that community? And my only point of reference is watching Doc Hollywood recently with my 9 year old son,
[00:10:20] Laura Wisner: my husband was a position on the front range for a while and part of the, the bigger system that sometimes is kind of beholden to insurance companies. And he just wanted something different. Um, and in Boulder, a little bit of his frustration was continually patting people on the back thing. You're healthy as a horse, you know, continue that marathon training or, you know, climbing or whatever you're doing.
Um, if you wanted something a little bit more challenging, and when you go to a rural community, you get to see a lot more. Um, Kremlin does have an incredible, uh, health system up there. They were the first in Colorado to have a trauma one emergency room, uh, decades ago. And, um, they're, they're top notch, uh, health care up there, but it's hard to find doctors in rural areas.
So, um, he, he, his attention was called to this position and he went up there and thought, you know, what? I want to do this, um, and truly the only reason that he came back. To the front range, uh, after five years is because we have a, a kid who's finishing up high school and he wanted to be present for that last year.
So, so he made the change, but there is a part of both his and my heart that is still in K Town.
[00:11:49] Craig Dalton: Yeah, you had mentioned, obviously part of his journey was getting to know members of the community and de facto with your visits there, you started to get to know. some of the community members and as avid cyclists exploring.
It sounds like you found other gravel cyclists who are based out of Cowtown. Can you talk about some of those characters you met? Oh
[00:12:10] Laura Wisner: yeah, and, and the biggest character of all is Sean Scholl, who is a co race promoter with, uh, along with Blaine Day. And Sean is Big Shooter of Big Shooter Coffee. And he is this incredibly loud, large character who is just incredible and so full of fun and has a lot of energy.
And he, he was a world class athlete. And I would even say still is. Um, so he lives up there and he and Blaine are cycling buddies. And they wanted to create an event. Up in Kremling, welcome the world, come and check it out, check out the back roads. And when I heard through the grapevine that they were going to have this gravel race, I reached out to them and I said, I'm in, I want to help, what can I do?
My background is in marketing and so I was able to lend that to them. The organization and so the, the really incredible thing about Blaine and Sean is that they're not trying to create an event that is just, you know, really easy. Come on up and, you know, we'll show you our background roads and we'll just have a great day.
They surprised people in our first year with how hot it was. So, the Kremlin gravel, uh, we call it untapped and untamed, which is when you drive into Kremlin, that's the sign as you come into town, welcome to Kremlin, untapped and untamed. And we decided to put that as our gravel moniker. Um, there are roads that you couldn't even tell that's gravel because it almost feels paved.
Um, and then you can go a little further in and, you know, get a little bit chunkier, um, a little bit rowdier. Um, and and what these guys are doing is they are creating an experience for, um, all 3 of our porcelain that people are just blown away by. Um, they're blown away by the climbing. They're blown away by, um, sections.
Of roads or trails that they didn't even know existed. So we had such good feedback last year that the team had scientists went back to the drawing board. That my ride this year and made it even rowdier. So, really excited to have those people who joined us last year. Come and see what we have in store this year.
[00:14:50] Craig Dalton: Yeah, that sounds amazing. So I want to talk a little bit about the gravel. I mean, obviously, if you go a little further up the road, an hour to steamboat, they talk about champagne gravel. You've been describing it a little bit, but it sounds like the team at Cowtown is trying to make sure that both our climbing legs, as well as our technical skills are explored.
So what type, you know, if you think about through the course of the, the longer course, Think about the types of terrain and describe some of the different areas, whether it's single track, double track or dirt road that you might find yourself on.
[00:15:23] Laura Wisner: Yeah. So, um, right now on calicongravel. com, we have the maps available to folks with the one caveat is that these might change because we're working with the Bureau of Land Management and the PLM.
Um, Bill are going to tell us yes or no on some sections. So we put the scenario on that has more paved segments than non paved. I should say. All of our 3 races are predominantly gravel. If the BLM will give us permission, we're going to take off more paved sections and add more gravel for unpaved. So, um, our longest course is called the bull.
It's 90 miles and it has 8, 000 feet of climbing. So, as it stands right now, worst case scenario, 76 percent unpaid, which is pretty incredible in and of itself. So, uh, we start right outside of town square. Um, we're going to start the high school, all downtown Kremling. Um, and we're going to start going northeast and if we're starting with paves, it's going to be a pretty fast start.
There will be a peloton and, and, um, some people can hang on for dear life and some are just going to, you know, hard charge from the start. From there, we get to a really smooth gravel. It's very similar to Of pavement and you will hardly even tell that it's it's gravel. Um, and it's just a hard pack. It's beautiful.
And from there, we go to what we call the whoopie moves and, um, just rolling, um, up and down and that is probably 1 of our chunkier sections, um, you know, a little bit looser, a little bit larger, uh, rock section, but It is something that anybody with, you know, halfway decent bike handling skills is going to be able to accomplish, um, and they're fun.
And so we go from there back to a nice hard pack gravel. Um, something that is new this year is we're going up Black Mountain, um, which is about a 1600 foot climb. And both the bull long course and the cow mid length course will go up Black Mountain. Um, and at the top they're going to go down through three miles of private ranch land, which is super cool because, you know, part of the fun of gravel is exploring roads and places you've never been.
So this private ranch land is only going to be accessible on race day. So you can't pre ride it. Can't check it out the day before. So that is going to be, um, a really fun first climb and I'll probably set the, the pack apart a bit there.
[00:18:30] Craig Dalton: And how about on that, on that descent, is it the type of thing that it's sort of wide open and it's full gas or are there some technical elements to it that you need to be cautious about?
Um,
[00:18:42] Laura Wisner: it's going to be fine. It's not going to be super technical because we are taking, um. The mid and the long course through it. We wanted to make sure that, you know, we're not, uh, less than anybody going down that. So, um. It's totally rideable, and, and you won't need shocks, and, and you won't need, uh, mountain bike handling skills.
But, I mean, those people who are, who want to go fast certainly can let it loose on that. It'll be great. Yeah,
[00:19:13] Craig Dalton: yeah, and then it looks like from the course profile that you hit another big climb. Well,
[00:19:17] Laura Wisner: here's where the two, uh, courses diverge. So, the bull, will go up again, and they'll go up Grouse Mountain.
This was a part of the course from last year that people really enjoyed. Um, so they'll go up, and Grouse Mountain is, um, it's a, it's a paved, not a paved, it's a gravel road for ranchers to access their ranches. So, I mean, it's just a normal road. Once you get up towards the loop, there is going to be a little bit more, um, dirt section versus gravel, um, and.
The whole loop has been expanded this year, so people can catch their breath this year. Check out the views, that's our highest point in the race. And, um, it's really beautiful. There's an abandoned cabin up there. There are streams that people often just fill their water bottles with, unfiltered water. Um, and are totally fine.
So, we are going back up Grouse Mountain on the long course. Doing a lollipop and then coming back down
[00:20:28] Craig Dalton: again. Got it. And I forgot to mention, or ask, what elevation is crumbling to start with?
[00:20:34] Laura Wisner: Oh, crumbling is, uh, sorry about that. Crumbling is a little bit lower. I'd have to check that out.
[00:20:45] Craig Dalton: Yeah, so a little bit lower than Boulder.
So we're, we're not in the stratosphere when we climb up 1600 feet.
[00:20:50] Laura Wisner: Um, I'm not going to say it's lower than Boulder, but it's, it's not, um, oh, 73, almost 7400 feet.
[00:20:59] Craig Dalton: Okay. So that's no joke for us. Flatlanders.
[00:21:02] Laura Wisner: Well, we have to give you some, some elements of the mountains here, but it's not like you're starting up at 11, 000 feet and you're going to feel the altitude a little bit if you're coming from,
[00:21:15] Craig Dalton: yeah, that's part of the fun.
Okay, so we've gone up and down grass mountain. What, what comes next?
[00:21:22] Laura Wisner: Okay, so what we're doing this year is we are reversing course around our reservoir. Williams Fork Reservoir is just beautiful. And last year we started and went around it counterclockwise and so the Peloton was pretty tight through all of that.
This portion is paved, um, to get to the, um, Williamsport Reservoir, you just have a little bit on the highway, but then a little climb again, about 500 feet, and then, um, you'll go around the water, um, um, And start heading back towards crumbling. So it's really scenic. Uh, and just really kind of a nice thing to see water, uh, water is a big issue for us here in the West.
And so you're going to cross the Colorado on a bridge and then go around and work and see mountains in the background and it's. It's just really spectacular if you can catch your breath and look up once in a while.
[00:22:26] Craig Dalton: I forgot to ask this on air, but how do you sort of cast the event in terms of a race versus a ride?
And are there, is it a heavily competitive element in the front end? So
[00:22:39] Laura Wisner: the spirit of Kowtown Gravel is we wanted to A, welcome people to the Kremling and and have them stop in our earlier than steamboat. Um, Kremling is only an hour and a half, two hours from the front range, depending on where you are.
Um, we wanted to invite people to Kremling and check out our gravel. Secondly, it is a fundraiser for the community gym floor. The floor is half pulled out, and the multi generational community just really needs a place to work out that there's, you know, the schools need, um, a place to have the kids sports.
The older folk need a place to work out, and so this is a fundraiser for the Middle Park gym, and so we don't have a prize purse at this point. We are trying to raise money. And so we have had some really competitive people come the first year. We had some semi pros and some pros come. And again, this year we are not going to offer a prize purse.
Um, because this is a fundraiser, but that said, there were some pretty fast calves who came and raced, but we welcome those who just want to come out for an event and get access to this ranch that they're never going to be able to ride on again. Um, do the short course, which we call the calf course, which is, um, just really a welcoming section of Kremlin gravel.
Um, E bikes are welcome on it, families are welcome on it, people who just don't want to commit the time or the distance. This is a 35 mile, just on a 35 mile course. 2200 miles of elevation gain. So, uh, we hope that some, some more pros come out. We're going to, you know, reach out and invite folks. Um, but you're going to, you know, the fun of gravel is you can come race an event or just come out and ride it because you're with, you know, a few hundred of your like minded
[00:24:48] Craig Dalton: friends.
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. You're a great distance away from the front range to kind of come out and experience something unique. And I always love when events are able to negotiate access to land that we wouldn't otherwise get to ride because it just adds a sort of additional special elements to the
[00:25:05] Laura Wisner: day.
Well, in Special Elements, the, one of the things about Kremling is that it being a ranch community, um, big shooter, Sean, is a fifth generation rancher, and so he goes out and personally talks to the ranchers along the course. And ask them, please don't do your cattle drive a few days before, or this day, because we're going to have a lot of cyclists coming to, um, you know, you imagine a herd of cattle on the road, trying to compete for the road with cyclists.
Or if they do their cattle drive a couple of days before, you're going to have a lot of cow pies being flipped up with the gravel. So, it's a unique, um, a unique aspect that Cowtown has. I mean, it really is, uh, true to its name in that aspect. Yeah,
[00:25:58] Craig Dalton: that's great. I'm sure that Sean as a local and a cattleman himself is able to get his His peers excited for the option of allowing cyclists to come through town and not get too annoyed that their, their day might be a little bit disrupted by a Peloton at some point.
[00:26:16] Laura Wisner: Well, you could get that in an urban setting or anywhere, but, um, the, the community of crumbling was really wonderful. We had. People from the retirement community make breakfast burritos and still those before the race of the fundraiser. Um, we had the high school band come and play at the after party. We had ranchers who were just out on their horses along the course and waving us on and cheering for us and.
Um, it's just a really cool, unique
[00:26:45] Craig Dalton: event. That's fun. I was going to ask you, like, if someone was interested in coming to the event, are there accommodations in Kremling, or do people typically drive in that day, or are they staying over? You know,
[00:26:58] Laura Wisner: it's a mix, because, um, We're about an hour from Winter Park, about an hour from Steamboat, um, less than an hour from Summit County, and so there are a lot of folks in Colorado who have vacation homes, and so they might come up, do the event for the day, and because we're so close to the front range, you know, within two hours, some people might just make it a day event, go up and back.
Kremlin does have lodging, we have A little bit of lodging, so if you're going to want a hotel to sleep in a bed, I'll get your lodging early. We do have an RV part. We have, um, camping. There's camping around the reservoir that we're going to ride around so. I would recommend that if people want to come up and we would love to have you, we're going to have a great time afterward.
Uh, spend the night before, spend the night after, but make your plans early, especially because it is the 4th of July holiday. Okay.
[00:28:02] Craig Dalton: And so what's the experience like once we cross the finish line? What should riders expect at that point?
[00:28:09] Laura Wisner: Well, we have expanded our finish line experience this year. Um, and you know, we learn things as every race.
Organization does. So this year we're going to have an arch welcoming people in. So it feels like I'm done. Um, we finished at Town Square, which has a brand new pavilion. So there's going to be a lot of shade. Um, we're going to have a band again. We're going to have food for people. There's a beer trailer.
Um, kids can run around with their shoes off. It's just a really clean park and people just they hung out. You know, it's the I'll pray experience. You say hello to old friends. You talk to people. You might have met on course and road with for a while. So it was really nice event that it's the kind of thing where people hang out for a few hours and just chat it up and talk about their experience.
[00:29:08] Craig Dalton: And prior to prior to this recording, you'd sent me a photo and you told me there was an interesting story. So it's a photo. I'm looking at a wide expanse of beautiful grazing land backdrop of beautiful Colorado mountains. I think that's a mosaic bike, but the writer is wearing what seems to be a bull.
Skull on their head.
[00:29:33] Laura Wisner: So that writer is Ben Delaney, and he came up in order to check out the course last year and Ben is a cycling journalist journalist who's been around forever. So that was on the top of Grouse Mountain and it took a little stop at the top to look around, take pictures and he points at the ground and says what's that?
And of course, Cowtown. It's a cow pelvis bone, and the thing is, is really funny because it just looks like something out of a action hero movie. And so he started wearing it as a mask, wore it as a breastplate, was just hamming it up in front of a camera. But, you know, it's, it's, you know, it's trembling and there's going to be cow bones laying around.
So, that, that's the
[00:30:21] Craig Dalton: cow pelvis. It's a great, it's a great image and I'll, I'll make sure to put that as part of the part of the episode art so people can check it out. So, what's the best way for people to find out more about cowtown gravel? When are you opening up registration?
[00:30:38] Laura Wisner: So, we are opening registration to the public on January 6, 2024.
Um, people who sign up for our newsletter get to register a full day early. So we, in our inaugural year last year, we had 350 spots and we sold out and people were begging for a wait list. And so this year, we are going to open up to 700 spots. Um, and we do fully expect to sell out again. So again, go to CowTownGravel.
com and put as much information as possible on our website, including a link to register the course maps, descriptions. Um, where do you find lodging? Um, it's all on our website.
[00:31:25] Craig Dalton: Great, and definitely give them a follow on Instagram and see some of those great views we've been talking about. It looks like a lot of fun.
I definitely love these sort of rural town starts. It's really cool to see another part of Colorado kind of raising their hand and saying, Hey, we've got great riding here too. And it's exciting that Sean and Blaine Kind of took this opportunity to sort of write a gravel love letter to their hometown and invite 700 of their new friends to come join them in 2024.
Yeah,
[00:31:56] Laura Wisner: we, we promise that it'll be experience that will not soon be forgotten.
[00:32:01] Craig Dalton: Awesome. Thanks for the time.
[00:32:03] Laura Wisner: Come back out Colorado. We'd
[00:32:05] Craig Dalton: love to see you. Yeah, I definitely need another Colorado trip in my life. That's for sure. Thanks for all the
[00:32:12] Laura Wisner: time, Laura. All right. Thank you.
[00:32:15] Craig Dalton (host): That's going to do it for this week's edition of the gravel ride podcast. Big, thanks to Laura for coming on the show and talking to us about cow town gravel. If you're listening to this in early January. Registration opens up on January 6th. So make sure to head on over to the Cowtown gravel website, which I will link to in the show notes and grab a registration.
If this event sounds like your cup of tea. Big, thanks to our friends at dynamic cyclists for sponsoring the show. Remember use the code, the gravel ride for 15% off any of their programs. If you're interested and we're able to support the show, ratings and reviews are hugely appreciated. It really helps in our discoverability. Better yet, send a text message to one of your riding buddies and share the show with them.
That's another great way to grow the community. Until next time, I'm wishing you a happy new year and here's to finding some dirt under your wheels.
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Tito Nazar, the founder of Gravel de Fuego, discusses the growth of gravel cycling in Chile and the unique challenges and beauty of the Patagonia region. He shares his personal journey from mountaineering to ultra running to gravel cycling, and how he was inspired to create the Gravel de Fuego event. The event features a sprint loop of 252 km and a 1000k race, both showcasing the stunning landscapes of Patagonia. Tito emphasizes the importance of experiencing nature and the sense of adventure that comes with ultra cycling. The event takes place in April and participants can fly into Santiago before traveling to Punta Arenas.
Gravel Del Fuego Website and Instagram
Episode Sponsor: Dynamic Cyclist (15% off with code TheGravelRide)
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Join The Ridership
About The Guest(s): Tito Nazar is a gravel cyclist and race organizer from Chile. He grew up in Patagonia and has a deep connection with the region. Tito is the co-founder of Gravel de Fuego, a gravel race that takes place in the stunning landscapes of Patagonia.
Summary: Tito Nazar, a gravel cyclist and race organizer from Chile, joins the show to discuss the Gravel de Fuego race and the beauty of Patagonia. Tito shares his background in mountaineering and ultra running before discovering gravel cycling. He talks about the growth of the gravel community in Chile and the unique challenges of gravel riding in Patagonia. Tito then dives into the details of the Gravel de Fuego race, including the sprint loop and the 1000k event. He highlights the breathtaking scenery, the logistics of the race, and the opportunity for riders to connect with nature. Tito also discusses the importance of timing the race in April to avoid extreme winds and rains. The conversation concludes with Tito explaining the process of crossing the waterway and the unique experience of finishing the race.
Key Takeaways: - Gravel cycling is growing in popularity in Chile, particularly in Santiago. - Gravel de Fuego offers riders the opportunity to experience the stunning landscapes of Patagonia. - The sprint loop of the race showcases the iconic Torres del Paine mountains. - The 1000k event takes riders through diverse landscapes, including flat pampas and mountain ranges. - The race provides support and accommodations for riders, ensuring their safety and comfort.
Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos:
[00:00:00] Craig Dalton: Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport
I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist.
[00:00:28] Craig Dalton (host): This week on the podcast that got the great pleasure of welcoming Tito Nazar founder of gravel Delph Wigo out of Chile. To discuss the event, the growth of gravel in Chile and Patagonia. And the beauty of the region of Patagonia, he's going to share his personal journey from mountaineering to ultra running to gravel cycling and how he was inspired to create gravel the flag out. As an homage to his home region. Of Patagonia.
As someone who's had the great pleasure of visiting Patagonia on a hiking trip previously, I would double click on that and encourage you to run over to Instagram and follow the gravel dove Wagga site. To see just what we're talking about. As we have this conversation. Before we jump into this conversation.
I need to thank this week sponsor. Dynamic cyclist. If you're not familiar with dynamic cyclist. It's a video base, stretching and strength program focused on cyclists. The team over there has created a vast library of stretching and strengthening routines. Focus specifically on those problem areas that us as cyclists constantly endure as someone who's always struggled with mobility and flexibility, I've really welcomed these training sessions. Because
there are only 15 minutes long, which means you can fit them into almost any day of the week. They focus on the various body parts that we overuse at cyclist
and even have specific stretching programs for those problem areas.
For me, it's the low back. So each winter. I follow their six week low back training program. In addition to the general stretching and strengthening training advice. They provide. Go on over to dynamics, cyclist and check it out. You can use the coupon code. A gravel ride. To get 15% off any of their plans, they do have a free trial.
So there's no reason. Not to head on over to dynamics, cyclist.com and give it a try.
With that business behind us, let's jump right into my conversation with Tito.
[00:02:35] Craig Dalton (host): Tito, welcome to the show.
[00:02:38] Tito Nazar (guest): Hello.
[00:02:39] Craig Dalton (host): I'm super excited to have this conversation. It's been a while in the making.
[00:02:43] Tito Nazar (guest): Thank you so much for your patience. Um, it required a lot of work on my side, but you've been very kind to me, so thank you for having me.
[00:02:52] Craig Dalton (host): You had me at Patagonia. The moment you said that in your first email, I was like, I need to find out what Tito's all about. And the more I've learned over the years have left, left even more excited to have this conversation today.
[00:03:08] Tito Nazar (guest): Yeah, Patagonia, well, it's such a powerful word. Uh, probably you agree with this. Um, yeah, Patagonia is very far south, don't you think? Close to Antarctica, maybe?
[00:03:19] Craig Dalton (host): Indeed, I think it's the farthest South I've ever been and just putting it out there to those listening. I've been on a trekking trip in Patagonia, which covers the and jump in, correct me if I'm wrong, but the sort of southern area of Argentina and Chile is kind of the Patagonia region. And I had the pleasure of seeing some of the most beautiful mountains in the world on this track.
And also some of the longest bus rides I feel like I've ever taken across the region to get from one point to another.
[00:03:48] Tito Nazar (guest): And windy, maybe, no? Yeah.
[00:03:51] Craig Dalton (host): A hundred percent. I think the first day, the sort of the female guide, she was wearing a ski hat and it was, it was not a cold time of year. And she was just basically like, Hey, if you're going to be out in this ripping wind all day, it's just nice to have something covering your ears.
[00:04:06] Tito Nazar (guest): Patagonia, it's crazy. Um, I'm a very, I want to believe I'm a big fan of history, but also, yeah, I have a deep connection with the past and I think Patagonia is powerful because of our, of the aesthetics, the mountains, of course, but the history that surrounds, uh, the mountains is something that is hard to grasp and maybe to find.
Uh, but of course I was born and raised there. So. I want to believe that I have a deep connection with my land. Uh, and that's why I'm very excited about this event because, um, of course, um, I want to show the world a different perspective, even, even to myself. Like I know my region climbing, ice skating, uh, skiing, but, uh, but graveling is a new thing in Chile and even more in Patagonia.
[00:04:57] Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. We'll get into it in a minute because I know you described the sprint loop as being one of the most spectacular rides you've ever done. But before we get into the event itself, let's just talk a little bit about you and your background and how you came to the sport of gravel cycling.
[00:05:14] Tito Nazar (guest): Mm, Mm, I began doing mountaineering. Uh, there is this guy, Ulishtek, have you heard of him? Um, may he rest in peace. Uh, okay. You know, the Banff, uh, festival was in, it was still taking, it takes place in Chile. So of course, if you were a rock climber following Chris, Chris Sharma, you know, Adam Ondra now these days, uh, and eventually Ulishtek show up in one of those videos, climbing the North face of the Eiger.
So I was one of those fans and I've been. I was talking this with my girlfriend. I, I think I am very obsessed with going fast and light. I never liked trekking really, which I've been a trekking guide, but it was not my thing. I was always cutting grams and stuff, ounces, you would say. But what I'm trying to say is that, uh, I got into mountaineering, then I understood there was something called trail running and I became an auto runner, I guess around Leadville, 100.
I did it. I got the big buck, big buckle. I don't know how many hours you have to do it. I don't remember the hours. Um, it was the only time I trained in my life and ultra. Then I knew it took me too many years. I had like a very conventional education, private schools and Catholicism. And I had to become an engineer.
Nothing of that worked. And it took me many years to understand. I have like a deep passion for ultra stuff. We'll try whatever. So one person told me that if you had a bicycle, I could go super far over 200 Ks. That might be 160 miles. So maybe two months after I bought my first road bike, I hated it, but I just used it.
And have you heard of this, uh, concept crack called Brevet? Brevet? This
[00:07:07] Craig Dalton (host): Yes. Yeah. In fact, we just, I just had a friend on talking about Perry Russ Paris and explaining the Brevets and that whole culture.
[00:07:15] Tito Nazar (guest): You see? Okay. So I did the 200, the 300, the 400, the 600 Ks. And I ended up not liking it. It was too easy because it's just road bikes. I'm not saying it's wrong, but it was lacking to me of a real adventure because, you know, it's everything too under control. And I don't know how gravel cycling showed up and I got myself another bike.
And it was a gravel bike. And before it was something here in Chile, just before it became something, I was already graveling. And just exploring and, I've begun doing everything that you were supposed to do with a mountain bike. I was doing it with the gravel because it reminded me more of having like a steel frame when we were kids, probably.
So that's how it went. And then the community began to grow and
[00:08:05] Craig Dalton (host): And were you, were you living in, in Santiago at then at this point, I believe you grew up in Southern Chile, but you went to Santiago for college, right?
[00:08:13] Tito Nazar (guest): that's right. Uh, sadly, yes, college. And then I, I went back to home and yeah, but I, but I was running a lot. So I've been running a lot, a lot. And cycling, it was basically the same thing. And graveling became an explosion just before COVID in Chile, just before, maybe a year before, uh, graveling culture exploded.
So I took my bike to the South. Um, I am from Punta Arenas, very far in Patagonia. Very far South and I was just grappling, trying to understand what this was. And, uh, of course I had the, everybody's drama, uh, what tire with, uh, suspension or suspension bike packing, not by packing gravel racing. Um, how error should I be? Yeah, but, um, yeah, after, and after COVID, I came back to Santiago
[00:09:06] Craig Dalton (host): Maybe to help people understand a little bit about what graveling is like in Chile. Where did you, where did you arrive with your bicycle setup?
[00:09:16] Tito Nazar (guest): when,
[00:09:17] Craig Dalton (host): When, when, what type of bike did you end up? Did you buy an aero bike? Did you buy a bike packing bike? What seems to be the best for the type of terrain you were enjoying?
[00:09:27] Tito Nazar (guest): well, that's going to be a complicated discussion because, um, okay, I have to give a short perspective of how gravel behaves in this lovely country of mine. Uh, we don't have the, we talked about this, right, Craig, um, our gravel is not like this thing you get to see in unbound gravel or. Some of the races where you're like flowing and aero bars and everything is so nice and smooth.
We have a more aggressive gravel. It's more rugged, uh, with more bigger rocks. It is very safe, but it's just not so fast rolling. This concept is different. So usually our gravel bikes in the, in this country, we have. Wide tires, at least 38 millimeters, 38C at least. Everybody's now going over 40s and suspension may be, it might be a topic, but you know, it makes it more expensive.
Um, myself, I have an, uh, a racing, uh, frame because I'm obsessed with grams. I'm a weight weenie. I'm super weight weighting. My gravel bike must be 7. 3 kilos. That's like a pro tour bike, aero pro tour bike. It's the same weight as mine. So, but it's, but I have like a super amazing, can I say the brand or no?
[00:10:39] Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, sure.
[00:10:40] Tito Nazar (guest): I have René Hersey, René Herse. I've tested all the tires in the world and yeah, those are like by far the best. Um, there are two, you say supple, I think, absorption. My God, they're magical. So you can use, well, that, that's just my personal experiment. But, um, going back to the concept, um, I use a gravel racing bike, uh, not aero.
But to ultralight, but people prefer to have more chunky tires, um, maybe heavier, but they focus, of course, more on, on comfort because that is the priority in a country such as this.
[00:11:15] Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. When you, when you talk about sort of gravel beginning to take off kind of just before COVID and, and then the years afterwards, were you finding other gravel cyclists? Were they starting to crop up? Did you find a way to bring that community together?
[00:11:32] Tito Nazar (guest): Well, in Patagonia itself, no, that is the honest, the honest truth. We were like three guys and it is growing. I will not lie, but it's, it's slow because in places such as Patagonia, where the weather, whether it's very unpredictable, mountain biking makes more and people were doing mountain biking on gravel.
You know, so now it's a matter of, you know, the, the concept has to penetrate, um, over the, the community. Santiago is faster. Everything goes faster because, you know, Santiago is a capital of, I don't know anymore, 10 million people. So that means there's just too much going on. Events, of course, just everything takes place here and then it spreads, uh, all over the country.
So I think something fascinating is not really connected to this podcast, but Chile is one of the most. Connected people to cell phones in the world, like whatever you do, if you show it on Instagram, people will know you can, maybe you will be on TV, nobody will see you, but on Instagram. So I guess we are more connected through, through social media.
So I can tell you how much is growing maybe in Santiago and slower in the rest of the country, but it is growing, but the rates are different. The closer you are to the capital, of course, it's faster.
[00:12:51] Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. And then at some point you got the bright idea to put on your first event and that was closer to Santiago, right?
[00:12:59] Tito Nazar (guest): very close, like two hours and a half, and it, it was not done in Santiago because we don't really have real gravel in Santiago. So we thought, okay, where's the closest place for real gravel? And it's like, yeah, it's in a place called Navidad. The, we are separated in regions, and those region regions are separated in municipalities.
I don't know if that the word.
[00:13:20] Craig Dalton (host): Yep. Sure.
[00:13:21] Tito Nazar (guest): the municipality of NIDA is where we take place because. We thought it was one of the best gravels we have found in the entire country, really. But it was not myself. It was, um, two friends of mine, um, that, uh, Juan and Luis, he was just here and we are partners and friends.
Um, and we invented this crazy race called Gravel Coast. That was our first event almost four years ago.
[00:13:48] Craig Dalton (host): And what, what's the Gravel Coast event like?
[00:13:53] Tito Nazar (guest): Well, we call it, we invented it somehow inspired in unbound in what's happening in the North Amer in North America. We feel very connected, especially my friend Luon. Uh, Luis, uh, Luchon likes, he knows all the athletes of your country, what's happening there, what's happening with the bikes. He likes the technology and everything.
So, and I also feel very connected with many events over there because of Lifetime company. You know, it's, you know, they, they, they have some understanding about marketing, so it hits all the way down here. So we, we try to make an, let's say an adaptation. Of what you are, what these people are building over there and maybe adapted to our reality because we don't have this once again, even though it's a great gravel quality, it's not like a super fast rolling concept.
It is more, it is a, it is a real challenge to finish a gravel coast race. Don't get me wrong. Anything can do it. I mean, many people, but you have to, you have to be prepared. I mean, our 200 miles are just insane. You know, there's too much climbing. So that means you're going to be on the saddle a bunch of hours. You're going to be proud of finishing gravel coast. That's why we say
[00:15:07] Craig Dalton (host): and is it, is it a 200 mile event? The Gravel Coast?
[00:15:11] Tito Nazar (guest): we have last year, we had 70 Ks, a hundred, I forgot my members so weak, but 120 Ks, a two 40 Ks and a three 20 Ks, which is a, which is a 200 miles now for the final event that is taking next year, that is 2024. It's in October. That is our spring. Um, it's going to be. Um, 50 miles, a hundred miles and 200 miles.
[00:15:37] Craig Dalton (host): Gotcha. Gotcha. Now let's talk about the event you're going to be kicking off in 2024. What inspired you? Yeah, the big one. What, what inspired you to take the mantle and create this event yourself? What inspired you of where you're placing it? I have so many questions about Gravel Del Fuego.
[00:16:01] Tito Nazar (guest): Oh,
I really love my country. Uh, especially Patagonia. Um, it's hard to explain, but okay. I'm, I'm, I'm super lucky person because my father taught me how to fish, hunt, and some scuba diving. And Tierra del Fuego Island, it is a place that everybody wishes to see. But there is no development. There is no, there's not many, unless you're like a person who likes fly fishing and can pay on a helicopter, that is the only way maybe you can access to the island.
Now it's getting more popular, but 20 years ago, I mean, if you were not a gaucho, you know, these people that take care of their cattle over there, or if you were not like a fisherman or maybe crazy guy, you had no idea what, I mean, you, you knew what the island was, but. No way you will dare to dive into it.
I think that thing is still happening, but I am so lucky. I know the island because of my father. He took me fly fishing all the time with a truck. Don't get me wrong, not on a helicopter. And we will just, you know, get into river rivers and he will bring his boat and we will just try to catch some salmons and trouts.
And so I had that first approach. And I saw the island just like that, but then I ended up being working for a king penguin colony. I mean, not for the penguins themselves, but from the owner of the, of the park. And I began to understand that was tourism. This was like, this was the real future of the islands. And then I ended up working for some company of the government for a commercial. I can show it to you on YouTube. I look very pathetic. And believe it or not, I was the model. They call me and I was like, have you seen pictures of me? I'm not a model. They were like, no, but we need somebody adventurous, blah, blah, blah.
So I saw once again, the entire island. Without this tourism vision, time passed and it took me like three years to launch this race. I was not daring. I was wondering if I had the experience, but after all the events we've done these days, I mean, accumulated until today, it gave us the guts to, okay, now we know we have the capacity.
I have the understanding. I've been in races where people have been in trouble in Patagonia. So I saw what was wrong. So I was able to understand how I can provide some safety. to secure people to enjoy the experience and not to be, you know, traumatized. Um, so it's been a long process. I don't know if that response answers the question, but, um, it was maybe a lack, a matter of luck of having one vision and then to have a more modern vision of how tourism come dive into the island.
And show it to the world.
[00:18:48] Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, I think it's a fairly common kind of expression from race organizers that they've just been somewhere where they want other people to see And a very small number of you out there in the world, take it upon yourself to map something, to organize something, to bring people together. So I'm always super excited.
And I was bemused by the distance of your sprint event. Your sprint is 252 kilometers, which is only a sprint in relative to the grand daddy event, which is how many kilometers for the full full event.
[00:19:27] Tito Nazar (guest): uh, actually I did the conversion. Um, the, the, the sprint is 150 miles. I know it's a sprint. It's an irony. It's an irony. And then that we have the big, uh, uh, route that is a thousand case that is, uh, roughly 654 miles, 600, 654 miles.
[00:19:48] Craig Dalton (host): Okay. So let's, let's talk about them quickly independently of one another and let's start off with the sprint event of roughly 150 miles. Can you just sort of walk us through what the vision was? And I believe you were telling me earlier, this was the loop that really was magical in your mind. If you were going to do any one thing, do it for one 24 hour period.
This is the loop you would want to share with the world. So let's talk about it.
[00:20:17] Tito Nazar (guest): Well, I have to, I have to confess. Um, I have to confess that everything was born from Tierra del Fuego. I, one of the obsessions I like to do is I like to do things that people have not done ever because it's more adventurous when something is done and you're trying to break the record, you have one warranty, which is.
You can make it because it is already done, but when something has never been done, there is more mystery. There's more uncertainty and I crossed the island from the north to the south in gravel racing non sleeping mode for the first time ever and back then I was already building the idea of making a race.
But I wasn't sure and then the upper section of the entire race, I speak of the 600 miles race. I've done it many times driving because I was a guide and also I was hunting with my father in some sections too, uh, birds. Um, when I say high hunting, whatever I killed, I ate it. So please don't be upset people.
Um, having said that, um, what was the question? Sorry.
[00:21:20] Craig Dalton (host): Well, I wanted to talk through both of the distances and sort of the vision and starting with the sprint loop. Like, what is, what would the riders be experiencing?
[00:21:30] Tito Nazar (guest): Yeah. Okay. My apologies. Uh, the short loop was kind of logical because it is. It enters the famous park, national park, uh, called Torres del Paine. Torres del Paine are these granite towers, um, that are super insane. These spikes elevate thousands of meters up the sky and they're breathtaking.
[00:21:52] Craig Dalton (host): quick, quick aside, I literally have a picture of the mountains you're describing in my kitchen.
[00:21:57] Tito Nazar (guest): You see, it proves something,
[00:21:58] Craig Dalton (host): it's amazing.
[00:22:00] Tito Nazar (guest): right? Um, so, um, sadly, because of a matter of logistics, we cannot make it shorter. Uh, we will have to bring people to, I don't know, closer to the mountains, but that would mean to move the people and their bikes, and that is just impossible. Chile is a very expensive country, so, sorry, that's the best we can do.
And what you're going to see is that, I mean, from the mile 60, you get to see the towers right away. Uh, the videos are, are on the Instagram of the, uh, gravel del fuego. That is the name of the race. And yeah, I mean, as you are pedaling, correct. You're just looking at the towers from one angle. Then you get to see more of the three towers because there are three towers.
Uh, and then one of the towers hides. And then you just get to see two, but then you see this cold mountain called Almirante Nieto, which is full of glaciers. And yet you get to see the entire faces of the, of these, of these guys. I mean, I'm sorry, of the Almirante Nieto. You leave away Almirante Nieto, and then you see the horns, Los Cuernos, the horns of the Paine, which are these granite, once again, towers that on top, they have, uh, volcanic material.
Which is the black dots on top of them. And that is amazing. Like I just, today I just put some stories on the Instagram, how beautiful they are. And then you final finish, finish with the final peak, the highest one, which is called Paine Grande, Big Paine. Then it has a huge plateau of just glaciers. Um, I'm sorry, I get excited, but I don't know if that So that is the point of the sprint.
I know it's not a sprint, of course, but we made it. Available for all people because they have 20 hours to finish the race. That is a lot of hours. You can contemplate, you can stop, you can eat. And, but it's just, I don't know. Uh, I wish people, I guess I have to invite them to get into the website and see the pictures, like we went on April.
So people would see how the landscape is going to look for them. It's just amazing. I mean, contemplating mounting as you pedal, it cannot be any better. Don't you think
[00:24:01] Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, no, I agree. And your enthusiasm is absolutely warranted. And again, I encourage everybody to follow gravel. If I go on Instagram and go to the website, you'll see the pictures, you'll see what we're talking about, and you'll see that even the most monotone individual can not help, but be effusive about how beautiful that region is.
When you think about that loop and you think about the writers, they have 20 hours, you know, inevitably there'll be some person, some people who are racing it. What do you think one can get around the loop in with 20 hours being the maximum? What do you think sort of the minimum winning race time might be?
[00:24:39] Tito Nazar (guest): that's a big one? Um, well, I already have my cartoon one possible winner. His name is, I'm going to say him because he saw the race. When I invented the race, he was the first guy who saw the circuit, the final circuit. Some other friends helped me, uh, I have to name him because he's a very. Great inspiration for ultra community.
His name is Canuto Razoris. We've done some crazy stuff together. Actually, we did the Everest thing, road cycling together. And next week, Andres Tagle, the, uh, maybe the best graveler we have in the country. He saw the circuit. I mean, next, next week he did the Everest thing. Since then we became friends and.
He saw the Gravel de Fuego concept and he was like, Tito, I'm so in, this is the best, the best race ever. Let's do it. He, he will not do the sprint. I think he will go for the thousand, but if somebody of that caliber will go, he can make the race in nothing. I don't know. I would have to do the math, but it would be 23Ks.
I can, let me do it real quick. But people that are very fast and it's legal to draft, so they can do it very quick. Um, they can do it under seven hours. If not less. Andres is detonated. We say in Spanish, Andres is detonated. It's, it's, he's reaching levels that are, he's going probably, I'm guessing he's going to unbound and he's going for something big.
Um, let's pray for
[00:26:03] Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, interesting. We'll have to keep our eyes open for him. And then the, the um, The 1000k event, totally different, you know, ball game. You're, you're talking about six and a half days
[00:26:16] Tito Nazar (guest): Yes.
[00:26:17] Craig Dalton (host): To complete it on the, on the outside, talk a little bit about that experience. You mentioned earlier that it goes down into, um, Tierra del Fuego.
So you'll, you'll do the same loop as the sprint, but also head way down to the very, very Southern tip, right?
[00:26:33] Tito Nazar (guest): Yes. That's right. Allow me to say just a little thing because when people hear Patagonia, they hear, they think wind, wind, and then they think rain, rain. And this is very important, uh, Craig, uh, we did the racing on April with, that is autumn is fall. It's not summer. And the question is why don't you do it in summer?
I mean, it's warmer. The answer is yes, but yes, it's warmer, but the wind is way stronger in our spring and our summer way more. So that's why people think of wind because they come in the high season when, when they think it's better. But the thing is in fall, the amount of wind is way less, it's way less, like, I don't know, way slower.
I'm saying 80 percent of the max wind speed you get to have in summer, uh, you have only 20 percent that speed. In April, and the same happens with the rains when it rains. It rains a lot in summer, but if it does in April, it could be more like a shower. So eventually you just can keep pedaling, but it's, it is colder.
Of course it is colder, but it's not extreme cold. So it's what, and the, and finally is the landscape because Patagonia is great. But sadly, what people don't know, and I guess I don't know if it's sad or not, but what I'm trying to share is the most beautiful contrasts of colors you get to have them in, in April because it's fall.
So the, the trees are orange. So you have the glaciers that are already, and then you have the high mountains already with snow because it's freezing on top of them. But you get to have this contrast of these trees with green and the farther you go South is orange. And that's why. And finally, we did the circuit in a way where if there is wind.
It's going to be on your tail. That's why it
[00:28:19] Craig Dalton (host): I was going to,
[00:28:20] Tito Nazar (guest): to south.
[00:28:21] Craig Dalton (host): I was going to ask you that because the coast of California is the same way. It can have a ripping wind, but you know, nine days out of 10, it's always going to be from the North to the South.
[00:28:31] Tito Nazar (guest): Exactly the same here. I mean, I'm speaking from a point of view of mathematics, something, some, this is Patagonia. Everything is unpredictable. Sometimes, of course we can have great wind, but if it does, once again, it should be on your tail, not on your head, not in your head, which is awful. So. Yeah, that is very, very, very important to be mentioned because there is an explanation for choosing not summer, right?
[00:28:56] Craig Dalton (host): exactly. So this, this, um, 1000 K course also has a pretty significant amount of climbing. So you're obviously picking some of that up in the, in the first sprint loop, but then as you go South, are you going over large mountain peaks along the way?
[00:29:15] Tito Nazar (guest): No, it's very fascinating because when you go to Torres del Paine area, as we talked, you get to see the mountains, but then you go south and it's fascinating because. Eventually, when you go south, then you're going to go east following the extreme border of Argentina. Technically, many places you're going to look to your left, and that is going to be Argentina itself.
Like you, you can literally cross illegally to Argentina. Um, not that I have done it, uh, but, uh, it's fascinating. I promise you. that area is so flat. It's so flat. It's, I have pictures posted already. I've never seen something like that, not on gravel, like infinite flatness of a straight road for miles, for miles, I promise you, and then you go South once again, and then you are as soon as long as you're going more and more South, you're somehow approaching a mountain range, which is not famous is called Darwin mountain range that is just before the ocean that touches the Antarctica, the farther you go South, You get to climb, but, um, but it's very graveling, rolling, very decent pace, most of the circuit.
And when I say this, I'm saying of 70 percent of the circuit, the rest of it, especially at the end, very, very end, you get to have mountains for real. And they're beautiful, but it's the final challenge.
[00:30:38] Craig Dalton (host): That's right. How do you imagine cyclists approaching the thousand K in terms of where will they be sleeping? What does that end up looking like?
[00:30:48] Tito Nazar (guest): That's a good question. Um, what, what we did is in the website, we created something called. I don't know English, but it's like, uh, it's like, um, we call it the guide of the race and we put every single campaign, hostel, hotel where you can sleep. So you somehow you can make a schedule of where you can sleep, where you're going to go.
So, or maybe as you are writing, you can arrange a bed for you to be waiting, to be waiting for you. Um. I think I'm pretty sure it's something like not many races of this distance to have, and we're very proud of it because you can somehow be more safe because in other races, it's like from point A from point B follow the circuit.
Good luck. See you soon. And you have, you have to fix it for yourself to give more safety for the people we did so, so I can tell you, and actually we have 12 checkpoints. Many races of this distance, they have only, I don't know, two or three, by a miracle, five checkpoints. We have twelve. And most of them, they're hotels, hostels, so if you're tempted to, for a hot shower, you'll have it.
If you don't have money, or you don't want to spend money, many of them, they have, like, a place for you to put a, set a tent. I have friends that they're coming like this, that crazy, um, more sacrificed style. Um, but also if you're graveling and you want to crash it, um, you can program very well many places to stay, even though there's not many, much traffic, not many cars moving along the circuit, just ourselves.
Um, when I say ourselves, the, the organizers where we have eight vehicles for safety. Um, there are many places where you can be sleeping and you're not going to be so, so. Abandoned in the nothingness of the Patagonia,
[00:32:38] Craig Dalton (host): And will, will the same, uh, would you make the same comment about the ability to resupply with food and water?
[00:32:45] Tito Nazar (guest): um, for the two 50 case, they're very safe in the, actually there's the, um, the big loop also. I mean, the big circuits, because the force, the first four checkpoints, they will have water isotonic and some fruits. So that will make it for most of it. I mean, especially for the sprint, but the, for the rest of the guys, uh, I have arranged a few spots where.
Uh, where they can buy food, uh, and many places, as I said, they have, they have hostels, hotels and nice people that they want to be involved with the community and this event. I have seen them a few, a few times making sure that it will be open and many of them are just waiting these people like, and so, yeah, they will find food.
But of course, the thousand K's have to be a little more careful. You know, the type of nutrition they require is different. The amount of calories, uh, but it's all mostly settled. Yeah,
[00:33:42] Craig Dalton (host): Gotcha. And it looks like at some point you have to cross a waterway. Is there a ferry that the riders will be taking?
[00:33:48] Tito Nazar (guest): that's right. Um, yeah, I'm very excited about it because that requires logistics from the point of view of the, the, the athletes, right? Um, I've done the math and, um, and most of the winners. Uh, they shall not have to wait for the ferry to, I mean, here's the thing. The ferry works from, I don't remember, I think from eight in the morning until 23 PM.
Uh, 23 hours that, so that's a huge gap, but that doesn't guarantee everybody will cross. So first of all, just before the ferry, 2016 miles before the ferry, maybe there is a town that I already have talked many, uh, have had many meetings with them. They're going to supply us, uh, like a gymnasium where they have beds and everything for emergency.
If people want to stay, if people want to pay for more comfort, that's no problem. Um, But I would say like the 40 maybe more, maybe 55 percent 40 percent of the strongest of the racers will make it without waiting for the ferry, because this ferry is crossing from the continent to the island. Um, every 30 minutes, maybe an hour at the most it's a 20 minute minutes cross.
And it's beautiful because you're crossing what is called the Magellanic Strait. Before the Panama channel, the only way you can make it to the other side, right. I think it was discovered in
[00:35:06] Craig Dalton (host): That was the farthest I ever made it. I made it to the side of the Straits of Magellan on the northern side to look at the strait, but I didn't make it across.
[00:35:15] Tito Nazar (guest): You see? Yeah. So I'm not lying. You see? Um, so yeah, I think there is like a deep symbolism in it because it's also brings adventure. It brings more, more of a challenge, but also. Maybe once again, maybe you want to take it slow. I have, we have people from Spain and they want to take it slow. They want to take the six days and a half and they want to sleep just before the ferry, because they just want to see everything on daylight.
So everything has been done like thinking of that, like gravel races, but they don't want to wait for the ferry. Would they just want to get to the other side as fast as possible? I think we are going to manage that slower. People can make it to the other side without waiting. Yes. Some others. We'll be forced to be waiting.
Of course. I mean, there is a schedule, but, um, I think it's, I want to believe it's well, very well
[00:36:03] Craig Dalton (host): it was the perfect, you mentioned the, those final mountains. I think they were, they were the Magellan mountains. Are they on Tierra del Fuego?
[00:36:13] Tito Nazar (guest): Yeah, no, but they are the Darwin mountain range. We are, as you are getting close by. Yeah, that's all right. Um, so many names. It's like, there's no way I know all the mountains in your country. And no worries. Um, the Darwin mountain range, as I said, yes. You're getting so close to them that that's why you have this, um, this, we call them peaks.
Um, and it's funny because in between, before every climb, there is a lagoon on, not a lagoon, um, how do you say, a lake on the other side. And they're very famous for fly fishing. Actually, my father. Walked to the first lake. It took him three days to get there because there was no road before you had to go, no GPS, like it's crazy.
I have pictures of my father climbing those mountains that now you can do go on a bicycle in a super safe way. Um, but yeah, it's beautiful. I mean, the last 300 case. I mean, everything has its beauty, right? Because, um, Torres del Paine National Park, it's mind blowing. There are no words. You have to see it until you see it.
And then you see, and then you understand. And it's going to be in your heart forever. Then you deal with the Pampa, which is the steep, you say in English, with this total flatness that drives you crazy. But it's like super graveling, fast rolling. Uh, there is a video where I'm pedaling, I don't know, 20 something miles per hour.
On aero mode, like flying over the course, and then you have some sections of the Pampa and the final 200 miles are just too impressive. It's too beautiful because then you get to dive yourself into the, into the forest. And there are some sections where it's just, you're in caves covering this beautiful, um, I don't know.
It's hard to say it in English. Um. Because I do believe this, I do feel this race is, I don't know for me, but here's the point, Greg, uh, if you do a race for one point for point a point B, it can be an experience, right? But I want to believe that ultra cycling, any ultra thing we do. There is an opportunity to know yourself and one of the best ways to know yourself is to be dive, like super dived into the nature, like in immersed, you know what I'm saying? There is a moment in life where you feel you're aware that you are you, but also you are somehow aware this is going to be too romantic, but you can be aware of the leaves. You can be aware of the dirt. You can be aware of the, of the water and somehow you really feel part of everything. I want to believe this race can give you that, especially in the beginning and at the bottom.
[00:38:54] Craig Dalton (host): I, I love it, Tito. That was perfect. And I totally agree with you. There's something that that's sort of transcendent when you're on the bike for multiple days in a row, whether. It's as simple as bicycle touring or as adventurous as an event like this, you just become closer to nature than you ever could on a, on a day by day long bike ride.
[00:39:15] Tito Nazar (guest): I meant to that,
[00:39:16] Craig Dalton (host): Yes. So Tito, at the very end of this race, you're quite far away from where you started. What happens at the end?
[00:39:26] Tito Nazar (guest): uh, well, I have to extract people. Here's the thing. Um, remember we spoke about the wind and everything we could make the race somehow to make you for you to return by yourself, pedaling from the South to the North. But as we talked before, the wind comes from the North from the Northwest. So that means probably the wind is going to be in your head.
And even though it's, um, slower, less powerful compared to the summer, uh, we are taking everybody by ourselves. You get to the finish line. There is a sign that says end of the road. It's very perfect. And we're going to set up tents. And every time we gather four people, we get them on a, on a vehicle, on a pickup truck, and we have to drive them.
We have to extract them from the islands to the main city, which is called Portvenir, where my mother was born. Um, and yeah, and, uh, that's how then they can take another ferry. This is another ferry because there are two access, uh, through the island. A small ferry that is in the race, but then there is a longer one, which is like an hour and a half on this ferry to where you get to the capital of the region that is Punta Arenas.
Um, so, so, but it's a long road. I mean, we have to drive them like, I don't know, from this, from the finish to the city, Porvenir. Oof, almost four hours. And before that, we fall, we drop them to the, in the city. We give them as a gift, the, uh, the, I don't know the gift, I guess. I'm sorry. We give them the access to see the penguin.
Remember I told you we work in, I work in the King penguin. Protected area. Okay. Um, we already talked to the owners, um, to the people over there and the money of the entrance for the pink king penguin is goes directly into the protection of these king penguins and, and participants can see them directly as a gift
[00:41:15] Craig Dalton (host): That's, that's so much fun. Tell it, tell us again when, when is the event happening? What's the event date?
[00:41:23] Tito Nazar (guest): April 13th, all the way to the 20th. A bunch of days.
[00:41:29] Craig Dalton (host): And when the listeners of this podcast want to book their tickets and come to the event, how do you, how do you get there? Do you fly into Santiago and then fly south?
[00:41:39] Tito Nazar (guest): Yeah. If, for example, in your case, like anybody, everybody's case, um, situation, they have to fly to Santiago. Well said, uh, to the capital of the country, that's Santiago of Chile. And from Santiago of Chile, there are too many flights, uh, all the way. My recommendation would be to fly to Punta Arenas. Punta Arenas, which means, it means Sandy Point.
Um, Punta Arenas is P U Q, um, if you want to look for the airport and there are buses all the time going to Puerto Natales, where the race really starts. Um, it's for a small fee must be like, well, with the bike might be. 10, 000 Chilean pesos, which is, I don't know, 14. Um, but yeah, my recommendation would be to fly to Santiago, Santiago, Punta Arenas, Punta Arenas, a bus, which is three hours bus from Punta Arenas, Puerto Natales. It's crazy.
[00:42:30] Craig Dalton (host): like that's part of, it's part of the Patagonian experience spending some time on a bus.
[00:42:35] Tito Nazar (guest): If you want to see the beautiness and loneliness of everything. Yeah, that's how it is.
[00:42:40] Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, amazing, amazing. Tito, thank you so much for coming on and telling us about Gravel del Fuego. I hope the event is a big success. I know from experience the region is absolutely stunning, and it's amazing that you've taken the time to put this route together, and I can't wait for gravel cyclists all around the world to come and experience this region.
[00:43:02] Tito Nazar (guest): Thank you for your time, Craig. Um, I want to put this, uh, recorded you're welcome. Uh, if you want to come to the race, just, um, let's see if you are crazy. And when I have this crazy adventure with me and experience the Patagonia one more time on two wheels, um, it will be an honor. I do mean it. I mean, I listened to your podcast.
I mean, it will be an honor. So yeah, I want you
[00:43:28] Craig Dalton (host): would, I would love that and appreciate it, and I will a hundred percent get to Patagonia again in my lifetime. It's just, it's too special a place not to revisit in, in, in my lifetime. Once again,
[00:43:40] Tito Nazar (guest): Thank you. Thank you for your
[00:43:41] Craig Dalton (host): again, Tito.
That's going to do it for this week's edition of the gravel ride podcast. And in fact, at December 19th, that's going to be our last episode for the year and we'll pick it up again. In 2024. Huge. Thanks to all you listeners for supporting me this year. I wouldn't do it without your feedback and encouragement big, thanks to all the sponsors, including this week sponsor. Dynamic cyclists.
If you, as an individual are interested in supporting the show, one of the best things you can do for me is leave me a strong rating or review on your favorite podcast platform that really helps with discoverability or feel free to visit. Buy me a coffee.com/the gravel ride. If you're able to support us financially. Until next time.
And until next year, here's to finding some dirt under your wheels.
-
This week we welcome Jonathan Hornell-Kennedy from Canada's Framework Bikes. Jonathan is a relative newcomer to the world of bicycle framebuilding, but his background in manufacturing and design supporting the aerospace industry provided him with some unique skills and insights he brings to his craft.
Jonathan sheds light on his entry into custom bike building, sharing the evolution of his process. He explains the meticulous method behind the creation of his unique carbon fiber tubes and aluminum lugs. We delve into what makes these bikes versatile on various terrains, and the challenges and decision-making involved in custom builds. Jonathan also touches on the struggles of establishing his brand within the competitive bike industry.
The conversation rounds off with discussions about the future of Frameworks. Join us for an insightful conversation, as we delve deeper into the fascinating world of custom bike building.
Framework Bikes Instagram
Episode sponsor: Hammerhead Karoo 2 (Use code: TheGravelRide for free HRM)
Support the Podcast
Join The Ridership
Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos:
[00:00:00]Craig Dalton: Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport
I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist.
[00:00:25]Craig Dalton (Host): This week on the broadcast. I bring you Jonathan Cornell Kennedy from frameworks out of Canada. You might've heard Jonathan briefly on the podcast. When I did one of my made bicycle show recap shows.
I was captivated by his designs at the show as they were relatively unique amongst the field of titanium and steel welded bicycles. I'd been familiar with lugged carbon construction from a number of other builders along the years, but I hadn't seen his particular approach. And after following him on Instagram, which I definitely recommend you do, I became a NABARD with the manufacturing process. So I was excited to have him back on board to learn a little bit more about his history. He's a relative newcomer to the world of bicycling, which I think always yields interesting and innovative approaches to things.
That's builders who have been around forever. Might not care to revisit as an approach. . So. I'm excited to have this conversation before we jump in. I do need to thank this week sponsor hammer had, and the hammer had Caru to computer.
Maybe you've been thinking about updating your gravel cycling GPS computer. This time of year, the hammer head crew two is the most advanced GPS cycling computer available today. With industry leading mapping navigation and routing capabilities that set it apart for other GPS options, it has free global maps with points of interest included like cafes and campsites.
So you can explore with confidence and on the go flexibility. One of the things I always talk about when talking about my hammerhead crew too. Is the ongoing software updates that they ship. You never have to feel left behind from a new feature coming out in the world because the team at hammerhead are always looking to improve. The device, the climber feature is one that I always call out as it notably has this predictive path technology. Which lets you visualize for the upcoming gradient changes in real time, whether without a root loaded. That is something that I particularly lean on when I'm doing. An event in terrain that I don't. I have familiarity with, or I'm on some sort of adventure ride for me.
I really just love to see what's ahead of me in the climb. So I can just think about my cadence and effort level. Et cetera. The other big update that I saw come through was around this new e-bike integration, which brings detailed battery usage data right onto this. The display. As the new owner of N E MTB, I'm excited to explore this feature. Because I do have a bit of range anxiety. So having those battery details right in the display unit. By which you can access via a specific persona on the head unit.
So I can switch between things I need on an e-bike ride versus things I need on a traditional gravel ride. Anyway, I encourage you to give. The Karoo to a look right now, our listeners can get a free heart rate monitor with the purchase of our hammerhead kuru two. Just visit hammerhead.io right now and use the promo code, the gravel ride at checkout today. This is an exclusive offer for my listeners.
So don't forget that promo code, the gravel ride. You'll get a free heart rate monitor with your purchase of our crew to just go to hammerhead.io today at both items to your cart and use that promo code, the gravel ride. With that business behind us, let's jump right in to my conversation with Jonathan.
Jonathan. Welcome to the show. I'm excited to have this conversation after we originally connected at the maid show in Portland, Oregon. Super cool. I thought your product was one of the more. Interesting products I saw in the entire show. So I'm stoked to give the listeners a little bit more insight as to your background and what frameworks is all about.
[00:04:26]Jonathan: Thanks for saying that. That's nice of you. Um, yeah, it's kind of a tired story at this point. Someone with a passion in bikes and who makes things for a living decides to combine those two
of their life and see what happens.
[00:04:40]Craig Dalton (Host): Jonathan, where'd you grow up and how did you discover cycling in the first place?
[00:04:45]Jonathan:
so I'm, uh, native Southern Ontarian, uh, up here in Canada. I was born in Toronto and have lived within a few hours of Toronto my entire life. Um, so, started biking, just, you know, when you're, Parents kind of teach you how to ride a two wheeler kind of thing in the school field. Well, I was probably like six or seven at that point, um, and we moved out of the city when I was seven and into a more, well, we were still in a town, but I would say a more suburban kind of town.
So biking around the neighborhoods and going to see your friends and stuff, kind of a little bit of escaping mom and dad's supervision. Uh, and then just started kind of. Like, loosely mountain biking. I had like a giant hardtail for my whole, like, biking career from age 12 to when I left for university.
Um, so, you know, go on, jump off of stuff, try and jump over logs, whatever, you know, just being a goof with buddies, and then in university, I, um, that was like, what, early 2000s, um, there was kind of like, the original fixie craze, I feel like
[00:05:57]Craig Dalton (Host): It comes in waves
[00:05:59]Jonathan: but, so I started riding a fixie.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know. It's cyclical, I'm sure. Um, so I started riding a fixie then to get around town, and that was the last bike I purchased before I made one for myself,
I studied, uh, a somewhat esoteric field of statistics called, like, uh, financial math. So it was taught in the Department of Statistics and Actuarial Sciences at the university I went to, so that's like the people who do insurance math. Basically figuring out how much your life insurance policy should cost based on, you know, statistics and market values and things like that.
So, um, yeah, so I was at school for quite a while. I, seven years, I think. Um, studying that I have a master's degree in it and then ended up doing nothing with that degree, uh, in practical use, like I should have been working as like a finance math kind of guy, you know, so didn't really
[00:07:05]Craig Dalton (Host): And then you had mentioned, you know, you had that fixed gear bike that was the only one you had and the next one was one you built yourself. That's for most of us. That's quite a massive leap and journey. What was going on there? I mean, you had, you develop sort of a passion for the sport of cycling. Was it more the idea of frame building and how did you even begin to acquire the skills to manufacture your first bike?
[00:07:30]Jonathan: Yeah, so that, that's maybe where the academic journey ends and then what I've done to earn a living, uh, commenced after that. Um, I, my wife and I own and operate a machine shop and, um, what we started the business with was, um, again, another esoteric thing, uh, pattern making is what it's called. And that's the, the trade that is involved with making the tools that foundries
[00:07:58]Craig Dalton (Host): And how did,
[00:07:59]Jonathan: castings.
[00:08:00]Craig Dalton (Host): I'm curious, Jonathan. So how did, I mean, how did you even see that as an opportunity? Did either of you have, you know, ties into the manufacturing world to begin with?
[00:08:10]Jonathan: Yeah, absolutely. So my dad is a mechanical engineer by education, and he owns and operates a company that, um, basically repairs, refurbishes, remakes large industrial pumps. Um So they, they oftentimes begin life as a casting, like a large chunk of, uh, iron or steel or bronze, whatever it might be. So when I was done university and kind of doing a little bit of soul searching, a friend of mine who's a few years older and was sort of, um, not thrilled with the job he had, I would say, or maybe that's not the right way to say it, but was looking for a change, um, He is, uh, he's a civil engineer by training and approached my dad cause he knew he was self employed and said, uh, Hey Pat, what do you think of like going out on my own?
Got any ideas? I'm pretty handy guy. And my dad said to him, like, Hey, I think you should look into pattern making. The guys are all old. You really can't go to school to learn that stuff. It's all sort of apprenticeship based and they're kind of phasing out their businesses, you know? Um, so there could be an opportunity there.
So Stefan, my friend, and I, um, I took like a night class at a local community college to learn how to do 3D modeling and was kind of pretty handy with SolidWorks. And the modern way of making patterns is to use CNC machines to carve 3D shapes, typically out of like blocks of foam or wood or, uh, tooling board, it's called, which is like a hard plastic.
And those objects that you create are what the foundry uses to create their sand molds. So picture like a cast iron frying pan. The way that's made is they melt iron in a pot and they pour it into a mold that's made out of sand and the mold has the shape of the iron, uh, the cast iron frying pan inside of it.
So my obligation or sort of the service that we offered was not only to produce the tooling, but I was also. You have to design it to work for the foundry. So, uh, cast iron frying pan is a relatively simple object, but we got, over the years, as my skill set grew, got involved with, um, some relatively complicated castings for, like, world leading Aerospace foundries.
And, um, so yeah, Stefan and I ran the business together for about a year, year and a bit. He was living in a different, like he lived in Toronto property. We're in Hamilton, which is about an hour outside. And, um, he had, uh, his first kid in that time. And I was like super hungry to get the business going. And so we were kind of on different paces and there's a little bit of friction that resulted because of that.
So we parted ways and then. We're still good friends, but, um, I kind of ran the business on my own and then my wife, Elise, came on, um, as we started to grow a bit, move facilities, and then started to expand more out of just pattern making to do, um, machining as well, which is, a lot of times, foundries have these metal castings that they produce that are relatively intricate shapes that need some more precise operations carried out on them.
Um, you could, like, an example might be, like, an engine block in a car or turbocharger, like, objects that people, like, think of more readily than some other things I got involved with. So you've got this object that's relatively crude when it comes out of the foundry, and it might need a bearing put in it or threads added so you could bolt it together.
So that, that's an operation that typically happens in some sort of machining setup. So we had this customer base of all these foundries that trusted us to make these relatively complicated things like patterns are, are big, like organic shapes, lots of 3D things that need to be accurate and go together and work.
Um, so it was a pretty easy thing for us to say to them, Hey, you know, he trusts us to do this. Would you allow us to machine your castings for you? Like, can we quote on that work? And the idea for us there was, um, kind of more repeat business. The thing about, uh, uh, pattern tool, uh, is you only make one of them.
Hopefully the customer is not coming back to you for another one right away, because the idea with a mold or a tool or something of that nature is that it costs a lot of money to make, but it allows you to make a ton of parts. Um, so think of that as like a mold for a carbon fiber frame. It's the same kind of idea.
You've got this thing that costs a lot of money is really complicated, but it allows you to put, uh, a basic material into it and get
[00:12:39]Craig Dalton (Host): And then you're in your example of like the engine block, they would have pulled something out of the mold that was a bit rough around the edges, maybe not as precise as it needed to be to fit. You would bring it back into your CNC capabilities and really use the tool to, to make precise edges and cuts and shapes around the basic block.
[00:13:01]Jonathan: exactly.
[00:13:01]Craig Dalton (Host): Gotcha.
[00:13:03]Jonathan: Yeah. And like a lot of that stuff would have happened more historically in the, the cycling industry when they used a lot of investment castings for lugs and things like that, or, you know, a lot of that type of product has moved away, like, um, in favor of probably more cost competitive and superior products.
Uh, but yeah, like, uh, there would have been a whole bunch of examples. I'm sure old shift levers and things like that die castings
[00:13:28]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah, I remember.
[00:13:29]Jonathan: um. The, you get a
[00:13:31]Craig Dalton (Host): remember in the early days of mountain biking, the wave of CNC machined parts that came out, preferably color anodized that were all the rage at the time.
[00:13:41]Jonathan: Yeah.
[00:13:42]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah.
[00:13:43]Jonathan: Yeah. So it's, so that's sort of the, the story on, and then we got involved in injection molding and doing, um, work for the government during COVID to make PCR testing consumables, uh, so that involved like some pretty complicated work in terms of reverse engineering, um, yeah, plastic components, getting a clean room set up,
[00:14:05]Craig Dalton (Host): And what was that additional equipment that you invested in at the time?
[00:14:09]Jonathan: Yeah. So we were, we got a grant from the government to set it up. Uh, so we had to put some capital into it for sure. That's how it worked, but you know, we felt like we're definitely doing the right thing when North America was kind of running out of those parts. The whole world was running out of them because when, when did like they ever see a demand spike like that in terms of lab consumables, right?
So, uh, yeah, we got that up and running and then. worked our butts off for two years to make it all happen. And then that's kind of what I would say gave me the financial
[00:14:44]Craig Dalton (Host): So that's that brings us to maybe what 2000 2022.
[00:14:48]Jonathan: yeah, honestly, man, the whole pandemic is a blur in sort of timelines. Yeah, I think so. That sounds about right. Um, yeah, I would say July of 2022 is when we shipped our last part, um, to fulfill the order to the government. And, um, yeah,
[00:15:06]Craig Dalton (Host): And was there a driver behind you saying like, Oh, I want to make a bike? Had you like increased your cycling during the pandemic? Yeah.
[00:15:15]Jonathan: So it's another pandemic story of, I'm sure you remember trying to buy bike stuff. Um, so yeah, the, the, all along, I've been, I've always had a passion for making things, right? Like, using my hands to create an object, like I, like, when I was in school, I worked in, like, fine dining restaurants, like, 40 hours a week.
That was kind of my first form of, you know, trading my time for money in terms of making things. Uh, so the, the shop that I've built up over the years, I've got some really nice equipment. I've paid for it all out of cash flow by doing other people's work. And I've always wanted a product line of my own stuff.
Um, not that I don't like working with other people and you're certainly exposed to a lot of really interesting and challenging problems to solve when other people are bringing you their stuff. But it's a bit of a, like, you know, everybody's got masters, even when I started making my own product, I've got to sell it now.
So that's a whole other thing. But, um, yeah, it's a bit of a, always wanted to make something and I've always been into bikes. So that's why I was saying earlier, kind of combine those two things. And the big push was, um, yeah, just not being able to buy a new bike during the pandemic. I was riding
[00:16:28]Craig Dalton (Host): and given the equipment that you had in hand at that time, can you describe the bike that you were able to make?
[00:16:35]Jonathan: yeah, well, uh, I had originally thought like I'm watching Cobra frameworks as Or yeah, Cobra frame buildings, YouTube channel, how to weld a bike. And I ordered a bunch of chromoly tubing. I've got welding equipment here and milling machines. So I was like, I'm going to just make myself a bike and that's it, right?
Like that's going to be, it'll be very, it'll be a piece of junk because I'm not that good at welding and I've never done one before, but the, it'll be the thing that I made and I'm riding it. And that's cool. Um, and then the tube shot sat on the shelf for like two years. Because it's like, it's not, that's not what I do, right?
That's not my, it felt like too fussy. I was going to have to be like sitting at a welding table, filing things. So the bike that I decided to make was, um, a format that is gaining popularity right now with the advent of 3d printing, which is a lugged. construction frame where the lugs are alloy and I'm using carbon fiber tubes.
So, um, I had actually originally, like I'm really good at 3d modeling. That's one of my main skill sets. So designing the bike took like a day, less than that. And then I was going to have the lugs printed, like 3d printed, like everyone else is doing. It's a pretty, um, in comparison to CNC machine shops that could produce a part like that.
In terms of intricacy, it's relatively easy to find vendors that do 3D printing as a job shopping service. Like, that's kind of the main
[00:18:03]Craig Dalton (Host): And are those, are those, uh, 3d printing? Are they printing in titanium or aluminum or both? Okay.
[00:18:10]Jonathan: both, there's stainless steels, there's all sorts of alloys coming out, there's different forms of printing. And then we, because we do aerospace work, like we had our aerospace designation working with foundries and machine shops that do that type of stuff. Um, we're involved with some of the like, Canadian leaders in terms of operating that equipment and having those processes validated.
So I sent them to the engineers and they said you're not actually going to ride that thing. Are you? I was like, what are you talking about? I was like, yeah, I'm going to write it. And like, well, I don't know if we would like, what do you mean? And that's when I started to like do a bit more research into, um, the metallurgy of 3d prints and would have needed to beef them up more than I thought to get it to work.
But the main thing that
[00:18:56]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah. Cause I often, when I see companies using the 3d printing, it's often. around the rear dropout. They might highlight that they're doing it back there, but I don't recall of anybody doing a head tube, for example, in the 3D printing style.
[00:19:11]Jonathan: most head tubes on bikes that are logged with 3D prints, they actually segment a piece of carbon in there, um, in between, or a piece of titanium pipe and weld it at the two ends, because that particular shape might actually exceed the build volume of some printers. It's not that they, cost wise it doesn't make sense, it's that it, you're literally talking about a little microwave oven.
[00:19:33]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah.
[00:19:34]Jonathan: to cram all the lugs into there. Um, and it's the build volume might be like nine, 10 inches cubed. So if you've got a head tube in there, that's, you know, for a taller person, it just won't even fit. So yeah, there was the, the structural element is one thing it can be overcome. The, what floored me was the cost.
Um, these guys are like, often engineers are also in gear guys, right? And they're into cars and biking and stuff like that. So a lot of them knew of these brands that are doing it. And they're kind of saying like, uh, I don't know. We can't with our own cost structure on what it costs to operate these machines.
And kind of how long it takes to print something. We don't get it. So then I kind of went, okay, you know what? For that amount of money, um, that we're talking just to build myself a bike. I can, I can just take a couple. Blocks of aluminum that I have on the shelf and sacrifice a few days of my life to see if I can machine them Um, so I made myself a fixie that that was the first bike and I just bought Carbon tubes from McMaster car like carbon fiber tube.
McMaster car is like, uh, I don't know the Amazon of industrial Ordering so they're they're awesome. They've got everything next day shipping kind of thing. So I got all this stuff and I glued the thing up manually and then I started riding it around, um, around town and going out to group rides, which I hadn't done before.
And people started asking questions about it. You know, most bike people are, they pay attention to stuff like that, whether it's a saddle bike they would ever ride themselves. Maybe not the case, but They know, right? And like, everyone's got
[00:21:07]Craig Dalton (Host): your bicycles have a very distinct look that is going to get people to ask questions. And for the listener, maybe who hasn't, isn't able to kind of visualize what a lugged construction looks like, you've got the head tube. With a little bit of kind of aluminum coming out for the down tube and the top tube, you've got another lug and bottom bracket set up in a similar fashion.
And similarly around the C tube and the rear stay and the carbon fiber tube basically goes inside that aluminum, that lug as we're talking about, and is bonded together in some way to kind of. Create the frame that's somewhat accurate. Jonathan,
[00:21:47]Jonathan: I think that's a pretty
[00:21:48]Craig Dalton (Host): I've never thought about describing lugs to someone in their ears. Not looking at a picture
[00:21:53]Jonathan: Yeah, like, Colagno, Cologno? I don't know how to say the name properly. Like, even their carbon fi Colnago. There you go. They're, they're, uh, Their carbon fiber bikes are logged. So just like there's a step, like most bikes, carbon fiber bikes are made in multiple pieces. They just seen them and sand them and you don't see it because it's under the paint or they might do clear coat
[00:22:13]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah, exactly.
[00:22:14]Jonathan: wrap or something.
But yeah, anyways, there's a bit of a step and it's, yeah. The, and the, and the first bike, I, it's like bright aluminum. I just left it raw. I didn't put any of the, um, kind of plating that we do on the ones you would have seen. And I use like a more old school looking carbon fiber with like the checkered weave.
So it's like quite, um, yeah. And it's built like a steel bike, like skinny tubes, like I think inch and an eighth or inch and a quarter down tube. Like, uh, yeah, so it was, so I started riding it around and people were saying like, Hey, you know, like go look at, then they list brands X, Y, and Z. Go look at those guys and what they're charging for a bike.
And I thought like, holy cow, like that's, uh, that's, I could do this again and charge less than that and make a pretty good go of it. Um, so that's when I kind of went like, okay, maybe I should try to spend a bit more time not doing it as a one off, but think about how I would build it with the skill set and resources that I have at my disposal and to kind of rethink the construction methodology a bit.
So, as much as my bike is like a object at the end, what I'm, what I really focus on when I'm thinking about the bike is, Everything that goes into making it and optimizing the design so that it can produce the best possible result, uh, in a really predictable manner
[00:23:36]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah. And in riding that first fixed gear bike and using those off the shelf carbon fiber tubes. Did you kind of recognize something in the tubing that left something to be desired?
[00:23:47]Jonathan: Um, are you, is this like leading towards why I started making my own tubes? Yeah, um, so yeah, they're, they're roll wrapped, so that's a process where you take sheets of pre pranked cloth and picture like rolling pastry on a rolling pin. You've got a 2D sheet on your table and you roll it over. Um, so you're kind of at the, like, you're constrained to what the fabric itself will allow you to do in terms of laying the fiber in certain orientations and what resin is already in it.
Um. So it's, it makes a more limited tube in terms of strength, but honestly, the main motivating factor for me starting to wind the tubes in house was that sourcing stuff in Canada can be problematic for a relatively small economy, you know, and like, there's the border. So every, all these tubes that I had access to were coming out of the States, I'm paying import duties on them.
I'm paying in a currency that's worth a lot more than ours. So when I looked at what it was going to cost me to buy a set of tubes from Rockwest, which is what I made the first bunch of bikes with, like I was working with them on the tubing, um, I just thought like, okay, maybe I can, if the whole idea is to try to optimize the process and drive costs down a bit, I thought I got to do this in house, right?
Like the, the tubes were costing me a lot more than the aluminum that goes into the bike. And that's like aerospace grade coming from a certified mill with traceability certs. And you know, it's. Good stuff. So, um, then there's the option of like when you're using, or option, that's the wrong word, sorry, there, there's the limitation that when you're buying an off the shelf product, you're constrained to how that is made, right?
So the tubes I could have spec'd out to Rockwest, like, Hey, could you make me the tubes with this recipe? And they'd say, yes. But one thing I wanted to maintain, um, as wide open the variable set as possible was like making bikes customizable. Right? So like, say you're talking to a, a frame builder that's using any type of alloy.
They're at the mercy of what tubes they can buy. They can't tune beyond that, right? They can maybe squish them a little bit or change the shape of them to get some different bending compliance in them, but the material is what it is. Um, so it, with internalizing the tube manufacturing, I've got a considerable amount of control over making the tubes behave differently.
Um, so it looks like a fairly basic bike in profile. It looks kind of as like a classical shape in terms of if you overlaid a welded steel bike over it, they'd almost look the same, right? Like, I use a relatively large down tube, but, um, but I wanted, like, I, I think carbon fiber is an excellent material, but to produce a carbon fiber bike in a traditional sense.
Um, you need a mold and then you're not doing custom geometry at that point, right? So I wanted to maintain the ability for every bike to be both custom geometry and have a lot of the benefits of
[00:26:42]Craig Dalton (Host): Can you describe what the filament wound carbon fiber, what's that process like?
[00:26:47]Jonathan: Yeah, so instead of roll wrapping where you're taking prepreg sheets, um, you have a machine, it's like a CNC machine that I built. Um, that operates like a lathe, so a lathe is where you have a spinning thing on a single axis rotating and something tracing back and forth along it. So, I've got a mandrel that's spinning and I, uh, like a spool of carbon fiber is on this carriage and it goes back and forth and I can basically roll or wind the single strand of carbon fiber onto this tube.
So I, I got to do the math again. I did it a few months ago and I forget the number, but I think to make a tube set for a bike, there's like 20, 000 linear feet. that I lay up in a really precise manner. Um, so we build up the tube in layers and we can have different layers for different tubes, different rider thicknesses.
And then what the winder allows me to do is put the fiber down in different orientations. So like, I'm not, I don't have to buy prepreg fabric from someone where it's only unidirectional, it's only. 45 or 90. Um, I can go any angle I want and put down as much or as little as I want in certain areas, and that's all done
[00:28:00]Craig Dalton (Host): that sort of pastry analysis, uh, comparison you used, is there the equivalent of the rolling pin inside that you remove at the end after it's sort of wound into shape?
[00:28:11]Jonathan: yeah. So our, that's where our process is differentiated once again, from people who roll wrap is I don't cure on the mandrel. So most production roll wrapping places or other frame builder, or sorry, um, filament wound tubes, what they do is they have a really precise rod that they wind onto, the mandrel, and then whether it's, you can use, so just to really muddy this a bit more, you can use two forms of fiber to it.
You can have prepreg fiber, so it's a single strand with the resin already in it. Or you can do what I'm doing, which is wet winding, where I buy dry spools of fiber, and then I'm mixing my own resin, um, and the fiber gets wetted on the way to the mandrel. Um, both systems require a cure cycle after to set the resin, but with the prepreg toe, you're subjected to the same constraints that prepreg is in terms of, you know, needing to store the stuff in the freezer.
It has a shelf life. You've got no say over the resin whatsoever. Um. So for us, I can mix and match the recipe for whatever I want. We use some really high performance resins and that's something that I think, you know, the bike industry doesn't talk a lot about. They talk about the fiber. I've got Toray T1100 in my frame or Ultra High Mod in my frame here, but no one talks about the stuff that actually holds it all together, which is
[00:29:28]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah. I've never heard of it beyond a technical discussion.
[00:29:31]Jonathan: so we spent a lot of time
[00:29:32]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah. Yeah. I would say, I would say I would encourage the listener while they're listening to this in their earphones to go onto your Instagram account because a lot of this discussion will become more visual. If you start looking through some of the framework bikes, Instagram stories, you'll get sucked into this process and everything Jonathan's saying will come together visually for you.
[00:29:54]Jonathan: I appreciate the plug. So I think the question I'm taking a really long time to answer is like, what happens once the fiber is on the rod? Most places, what they do is to get some amount of consolidation is they wrap tape over it once it's on the mandrel. Kind of like wrapping a hockey stick or a golf club grip or a tennis racket or whatever.
So they've got an additional head that has what looks like packing tape and they pull on it kind of hard and then try and wrap, wrap it under tension to consolidate that fiber down onto the mandrel. Then that whole thing goes in an oven. Some guys will vacuum bag it depending on what you're doing. So that means they put a big plastic sleeve over it and pull vacuum on the sleeve.
So that'll give you, I think it works out to about 14 PSI of consolidation, um, and then, then they have to remove the rod from the carbon fiber once it's cured, pull it out the end, and you're left with your final carbon fiber tube. So what we do that's a little different is, while the fiber is still wet, like the glue, the epoxy glue hasn't set up yet, mandrel, and then I place it into a mold, like a, The mold that has two hemispheres in it.
So I slip a bladder inside of it and then, um, expand the fiber into the mold to give it a really accurate shape and much higher consolidation than you can achieve with, um, traditional
[00:31:21]Craig Dalton (Host): Interesting. You mentioned you, um,
[00:31:24]Jonathan: So that there's, there's a few motivations for that. One is to get like much higher quality product without, because when you're wet winding, um, air and stuff gets worked in.
It's really hard to avoid little micro air bubbles and tiny little air bubbles in carbon fiber is what causes the material to break down over time more rapidly. It's if the, if the plastic starts to fatigue, the fibers get overworked and then the thing kind of breaks down. So the higher quality you can make the product coming out of the mold, the longer it's going to last, the better performance you get out of it.
The other thing for us is I wanted really accurate. diameter on the outside of the tube because that's how we glue it into the lugs. Um, so if you can imagine the process that I described where you tape the outside of it, you're left with a fairly coarse outer surface on your filament wound tube. So most people have to sand it quite heavily to get it either dimensionally accurate or, you know, looking good.
So that's another step I wanted to avoid. Like my whole thing is about trying to minimize the amount of human
[00:32:26]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah, I think when many of us look around our garages at the carbon fiber frames, uh, clearly like they, they must've been sanded. And then obviously like the paint and everything gets it smoothed over. So you don't see if anybody's seen like a raw construction of a carbon fiber frame, they look a lot rougher around the edges than the finished painted products do.
But in your case, there's nowhere to hide. You know, the, the, the product is everything.
[00:32:52]Jonathan: You could, like, like you, what you could do to rectify it, and I think some other builders do need to do this, is like, you've got little pinholes everywhere, you've got little wrinkles in the surface, you lay on a clear coat, you mix up your epoxy, or some other finishing agent, you lay it down, and then you sand it.
And then you repeat that process three or four times until you've got something that looks really nice, but it's, you can kind of think of it as like the, the mosquito trapped in amber, you know, there's like, your carbon fiber tube is in there, but you have layers of extra resin and clear coat on the outside to make it look pristine, but there's actually a lot of like little plastic and paint on the
[00:33:31]Craig Dalton (Host): So we've given the listener a little bit of an understanding of like the process that you go through and all the, your background as a machine shop first, and why you became suited to kind of create these frames with the process you have today, what is a customer engagement look like, how do they work with you?
How do you leverage? All of that customization capability you've just described to create a unique ride property for a customer's bike.
[00:33:59]Jonathan: That's a question that I don't have a, I don't think I have a satisfying answer to for most people. I'm, I'm coming to this from an extremely technical background where, like, you have to measure and prove everything and, uh, ride feel is totally subjective. You know, there's no, there's no, um, industry standard guidelines for how you test for ride feel.
So people will say to me, Oh, I ride your bike. If you could. talk more, or I'd buy a bike from you if you talk more about how it feels and all these things. So my, I would say my thesis on it is that torsional stiffness is really important. So again, coming back, there's so many layers of like, I could go into techie deep dives on everything, but the, the torsional strength you can get from a filament wound product is like exceptionally high.
It's how they make, like, really high performing, um, motorsport driveshafts and stuff like that. So, torsion refers to how much twisting the downtube can handle, basically. Um, that's the main structural element there. Uh, so, if you wanted to make an object that had the same strength as our downtube, and sort of, in terms of torsion, they would be really stiff in all your other dimensions, right?
It would be an uncomfortable bike to ride. So, I really focus on, um, like, speed and comfort. I would say, uh, you'd think those things might be at odds with one another, but the efficiencies from sort of the bike, not wanting to twist it, like. Yeah, when you pull on the handlebars and push on the bottom bracket, you're trying to torque the down tube, right?
So, I can make that strong enough to resist that, that you're not being inefficient during pedaling or riding and you're gonna corner well. But it, it's not unnecessarily stiff in plane, so you don't get like, uh, a chattery feel when you're going over bumps. So, yeah, but I, I don't like, I don't have an answer that I think is satisfying.
I, I, I, Honestly, I was researching this last night, going through like academic literature for what places, like, where do you put accelerometers and strain gauges on a bike to try and figure out ride feel? And there's no, there's no answer. And then even if you, even if I come up with a rigorous testing methodology, I say my bike's a seven.
Like, what does that mean to you, Craig, when you're going to buy it? Right. So I think within custom frames, the customer is taking a little bit of a risk. Because they can't go to the showroom floor and try my bike, right? And even if they did try my bike, um, that was built for a different rider, there's no guarantee that the one I make is going to be, you know, I'm not a mind reader and a psychic.
I don't know how to translate those things. But, um, for people who are very concerned about that, I don't have a satisfying answer. I don't think I can't tell them I can make you exactly what you want. The things we look at are your weight, your riding style. Um, your preferences in terms of stiffness, like just having a sort of verbal conversation about that, and like describe what you're looking for, your power output, like FTP, things like that.
Um, yeah, and
[00:36:59]Craig Dalton (Host): the challenge with your process that you can make it overly stiff and it's backing it off to the
[00:37:06]Jonathan: Uh, no, I don't, I don't think we'd ever be able to, I, I, I maybe could if I redesign things, but no, we're not going to be like, uh, you know, early 2000s, we feel like riding a board. That's like our, our two profiles in a lot of places are slender, our chainstays are small, they're strong, they're very strong.
But, um, you know, I think if, if you're someone who comes from riding like pretty hardcore road bikes or like time trial bikes, our bike is not going to feel, um, too stiff to you. There's no, no, I'm making something that I want to ride for a couple hours and have fun on, and we can stiffen things up for sure if that's what you're looking for.
But I. You know, like there's the whole conversation of, um, pedaling efficiency, aero gains, all those types of things. Like I'm not making a type of bike that anyone is going to race on, right? Like people who are racing and are concerned about aero gains and drivetrain efficiency and all that stuff are, they're probably on, they want to be on the BMC or the Canyon or the Factor or whatever other guys are racing on.
So for me to try to tailor the bike construction methodology to capture that little bit more of the market, Even if I had a product that met their needs, I don't think I'd have a very easy time selling it because it's not got, you know, it's not what other people are racing. So, um, yeah, I've, I've. Tried to make a bike that is really enjoyable for most people.
Like even if you are a serious racer, train on one of our bikes, you're going to have a lot
[00:38:33]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. So, I mean, just to be clear. So for the would be gravel cyclists looking at one of your gravel frames, what size tire clearance can you get? And do you sort of in your mind say this is sort of a, this is an all around gravel bike. This is going to get it in that sweet spot of you can do almost everything from including racing with it to, you know, your local group ride, gravel rides, et cetera,
[00:38:59]Jonathan: Yeah. I think that comes down to what do you define a gravel bike as, right? So we, because everything is custom geometry, I can take it from being basically like a nineties, late eighties mountain bike, um, to. Basically a super fast road bike that you can fit gravel tires on, right? Like it's, I can do the whole spectrum.
So I kind of didn't answer this part of the question that you asked about what the customer experience is like. Everything we do is like, I haven't made two bikes that are the same yet. Right. And I'm on a boat. Bike 20 at this point. So we can do all your normal fit stuff. But then again, yeah, the question of tire clearance, drivetrain impingement.
Um, I'd say, uh, we would have a tough time stuffing a 50 millimeter tire in with a two by drivetrain with one by no problem. Um, upfront. So we're, uh, classified OEM. I don't know if you're familiar with those. Uh, yeah. The internal shifting hub. So if people like really want huge tire clearance and two by that's like one of the things I can lean on there.
Um, but yeah, like I think my, I've made myself, uh, kind of an all road gravel leaning bike and a gravel bike. That's got a really slack head tube and I ride it with 45s on it all the time. Uh, so yeah, we can, we can kind of do whatever you're looking for. I think. Gravel as a segment has a lot more variability than like a road bike, you know, there's fast gravel Um, you know, whatever slack bike packing type gravel.
So yeah, we can kind of do Anything really and that that is one of the challenges we have is like, okay I'm telling you about how diverse our system is in terms of its output and we can tune tubes and all this stuff It
[00:40:39]Craig Dalton (Host): 100%. Yeah.
[00:40:40]Jonathan: For the customer, right? Like they can't, it's, it's, it's too much.
So that's why in the new year, I'm working on it right now. We want to offer like pre made geometry essentially at a slightly better price than our customs. We're going to have a couple of geometry tables, um, for, you know, road, all road, gravel, maybe even do two gravels, like the fast gravel and the, but that'll kind of like, which is all road,
[00:41:02]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah. Yeah. Having gone through my own, uh, custom
[00:41:05]Jonathan: And just to kind
[00:41:07]Craig Dalton (Host): overwhelmed with choice all of a sudden when someone says they can make you anything all of a sudden, it's hard not to become paralyzed. And it took me a while. And fortunately, I'm surrounded by lots of advisors in this front to help that helped me kind of just narrow down the constraints.
Of what I wanted and then kind of work with the frame builder to say, yeah, this makes sense.
[00:41:28]Jonathan: yeah. So our, like. Easiest customers, fastest, like, time from first interaction to when the bike is built are people who have commissioned lots of custom bikes already, right? They don't, like, they're not doubting their decision. They know what they're looking for. They know they're fit. Um, so they're not belabouring these decisions of like, oh, what's a 0.
2 degree difference on my head tube gonna do, right? Like, they're, it's To them, it's not a big deal. So that's where it's, someone said it to me at, at made actually is like, Oh, what you want is freedom from choice in terms of like having the, the, the product, you know, take this or leave it, you know, that's, if you want to do the full custom thing, we can do that, but maybe it's easier for you to just cross shop geometry tables on like bike insights.
And that's what you, how you want to do it. So I need to kind of make that, um, available for people. So yeah, it is, it is totally overwhelming. And I think it's, so there is no customer interaction for me right now that isn't like one click buy on the website, right? Like I'm, there's a bunch of emails back and forth.
There's drawing revisions, there's discussions about what you're looking for, what bikes you currently have, um, and what your goals are for the build. So yeah, it's, it, it's involved. And that's part of the reason for shifting to like sort of the tiered model of like prebuilt at one price. And. Full custom at another price because there's a ton of time involved in custom where I can just like Turn on the CNC machine and make make the size 56 all road and you get your thing a couple weeks later You know, there's
[00:43:06]Craig Dalton (Host): You had mentioned in this conversation sort of this journey to becoming part of the bike industry. Is, is there anything that stands out that surprised you? About the way people buy bikes or what it's like being a bicycle manufacturer.
[00:43:20]Jonathan: no everything. I'm I'm yeah, we talked about this a bit before we started But yeah, like that's the whole side of it. That's It's a total mystery to me, like I'm, I'm a like tech focused, fact based kind of person and to try to navigate, um, the mind of the consumer amidst all the information they're giving, given from general marketing and you know, what, what's important, what's not, it's, and, and convincing someone that what you're doing is worthwhile.
Is really challenging. That's, that's going to be the kind of crux of my success or failure. It's not like, I think we make a good product and I can't guarantee you. Sorry. I think my heater just kicked on in the shop. Did that come
[00:44:03]Craig Dalton (Host): No worries.
[00:44:04]Jonathan: microphone a bit? Okay. Um, so yeah, like that, that, that's going to be the make or break for me.
Can I sell enough bikes to keep it, uh,
[00:44:14]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah. Yeah. It's, it,
[00:44:16]Jonathan: So
[00:44:16]Craig Dalton (Host): so interesting
[00:44:17]Jonathan: inside the mind.
[00:44:18]Craig Dalton (Host): your business over Instagram because you're, you're so, um, open about sharing your manufacturing process and open to engineering debates and discussions with would be commenters on your Instagram stories that I do think, I mean, from an outsider's perspective, Jonathan, I think you, you showcase the quality of your work in those discussions.
And you have always shown up in every story that I've, I've watched in our, our previous conversations, you show up as someone who's very thoughtful about the things you're doing. And obviously there are different ways of doing things, but you are clear about why you are doing things the way you are doing that.
[00:45:00]Jonathan: Yeah. So that's always been what's worked for me is sort of the behind the scenes, lay it out for what it is. Um, I think what a lot of people have told me in that sort of marketing branding thing is like, you need to take it a step further. You need to not just show what you're doing, but you need to explain why it's good.
And that's where I think I draw a little bit of a personal line because it's like, I'm not, I don't want to take it to, I'm telling you what you should think. I want to leave it at let me show you and you decide for yourself and I don't know if
[00:45:29]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah, I think, I mean, I think the challenge now just my two senses, um, given the small number of frames you have out there in the world is just getting rider feedback, testimonials, reviews, other people riding bikes that are willing to comment on things like ride quality to kind of bring it all together, because as I just said, like, I do think that you've yeah.
You've established through your social accounts that trust in your skill as a manufacturer. Now people are just wanting to see what do people say when they've got one of these underneath them?
[00:46:02]Jonathan: Yeah I've had people literally DM me and said like there I've got some review bikes out there with Certain reviewers and I've had people say when so and so writes their review as long as it's not bad. I'm buying a bike It's like okay great I think that's good that you need that little like last bit of confirmation that it's not a crapshoot but Like I'm, I'm over here kind of feeling a little vulnerable to be honest, like you put yourself out there.
I'm selling bikes. I don't know what expectations I had in terms of how fast sales would take off. I think, like my wife keeps reminding me, like you've been doing this for a year, like maybe you have unreasonable expectations. Just keep your head down and keep like doing good stuff. So yeah, I think you're right.
That'll just take a little bit of time, awareness.
[00:46:46]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah. And then
[00:46:47]Jonathan: Yeah, all those things of
[00:46:49]Craig Dalton (Host): would say, and I maybe I've missed this on your account to the degree in which you are writing your own product and out there. Just sharing a little bit of, of your own commentary again, like everybody's going to take it with a, Hey, this is one rider and, you know, maybe it's a very self interested rider's perspective, but I, you always have struck me as someone who's honest.
So I'm not thinking you're going to film a video of yourself riding a gravel trail saying this is the fastest bike ever been produced on earth.
[00:47:17]Jonathan: so yeah, I might've given, uh, discredited myself already in this conversation in that regard of, I wrote a fixie for the last 20 years, right? Like what's my frame of reference? I've, I've said this to people and they look at me like, Oh my God, this guy must be a total idiot. Where I say like, I'm not a bike guy.
Like, I'm a cyclist. I love riding bikes, but I'm not a guy that's reading the magazines every month, seeing what the latest and greatest is, or knowing what the trends are. Like, I'm kind of outside of all of that. So I think, to your question about what are the biggest kind of shocks is, um, yeah, the whole branding, marketing side of it.
I was, I really underestimated that. I thought like a good product, a good, well made product is worthy of, um, you know, at least consideration from a buyer, but there's so much information out there, right? There it's overwhelming and it changes
[00:48:06]Craig Dalton (Host): hundred percent. I mean, I think what,
[00:48:08]Jonathan: me saying, I'm enjoying riding my bike.
It's like, yeah, of course I'm going to say like,
[00:48:14]Craig Dalton (Host): oh man, well, I mean, this is great. Jonathan, just one final question on like the customer journey. Like if someone was to come to you with a custom project and assume that they kind of are in the know and got to understand the basics of what they want. Once you kind of locked in design back and forth, how long does it take you to produce a bicycle?
And are you typically selling a complete bike or just a frame?
[00:48:35]Jonathan: so I'll answer the last part of that question first. We do both. Um, I would say. The farther away the bike's getting shipped, the less likely it is that it's a complete, if that makes any sense. Like I'm in Canada, I'm sourcing components here, so our American customers, it might make more sense for them to work with their local shop.
To fill out the build and I just send the frames work and handlebars or whatever they're buying down there. Um, local people have bought full builds. I've sent stuff, yeah, internationally as far as Japan more recently, and those are typically frames. So we do both. We do want to know about component, um, compatibility, even if we're not the ones.
We're doing the full build, you know, that's an important part of making sure everything works for the customer when they get it. Um, so the way we work is we take a deposit, uh, 500 right now to reserve a spot in the build queue and to kind of do that back and start the discussion on what you're looking for.
That deposit's non refundable, but it gets applied to the balance of whatever the build cost comes out to at the end. Um, and from the approval, like some people approve same day. They know exactly what they want. Might go to production later that day or the next morning. Uh, it's, I would say it's typically about a month right now from start to finish to build the bike.
Like, it's, there's, it's not a lot of my time, but there's a bunch of steps where you wait in between. The main one being that I send the lugs out for plating for, uh, corrosion resistance and Uh, and that, you know, if I finish them on a Monday, I ship them out a Tuesday or Wednesday, I get them back a week and a half later, uh, in that time I can have made the tubes.
So, yeah, it's our lead time right now is about two months. I think we've got some backlog, a small backlog of orders to work through, some review bikes going out and. Yeah, so it's, we're pretty quick, I think, like our, the theoretical throughput on what I can do in a year, uh, on our current equipment is
[00:50:41]Craig Dalton (Host): Okay.
[00:50:42]Jonathan: 200 bikes. So I don't expect to be selling that many. If I was,
[00:50:47]Craig Dalton (Host): Well, we'll get you there in time. Jonathan. I'm good. I'm excited to see this journey ahead of you.
[00:50:53]Jonathan: Thanks.
[00:50:54]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah. Cool. Well, I'll put links to everything in the show notes. So people know how to find you again for the listener. Definitely follow the frameworks framework bikes, Instagram account, which I'll link to as well.
You can get all the behind the scenes. You're going to want a friend of mine who tipped me off to your brand when we were at Manufacturer's porn, which I think is appropriate.
[00:51:15]Jonathan: No, Yeah, the website, uh, it's there. It needs some work. Like I said, we're working on the kind of program for 2024 in terms of the stock sizes. Throwing some more information up there. It's just really it's a placeholder website right now. So definitely needs
[00:51:31]Craig Dalton (Host): Right on. Thanks for all the time, Jonathan.
[00:51:34]Jonathan: Thank you
[00:51:34]Craig Dalton (Host): that's going to do it for this week's edition of the gravel ride podcast. Big, thanks to Jonathan from frameworks for coming on board. And telling us all about his journey and manufacturing process for those beautiful bikes. Additional thanks. Goes out to our friends at hammerhead. For sponsoring the show many times this year, truly appreciate their support as I couldn't do what I do without some of their underwriting.
If you were able to support the show, a couple of things you can do for me, ratings and reviews are hugely appreciated. They really help. With discoverability. Or if you're able to financially contribute to the show, simply visit buy me a coffee.com/the gravel ride. Until next time here's to finding some dirt onto your wheels.
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Welcome to another episode of The Gravel Ride Podcast 🎙️. Today, our guest is Kyle Rancourt from Pinebury Clothing, a quality-focused, US-manufactured cycling 🚴♀️ apparel brand.
Kyle takes us through his journey into the cycling industry 🛠️ and Pinebury's specific focus on Merino wool for its inherent performance benefits. He walks us through his vision, design and the critical role manufacturing in the US plays in their brand's commitment to quality, and sustainability 🌎.
One thing is for sure after this conversation, Pinebury's Nuyarn performance wool isn't the wool of yester-year! Give a listen to learn more 🎧.
Pinebury Website
Episode sponsor: AG1
Support the Podcast
Join The Ridership
Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos:
[00:00:00]Craig Dalton: Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport
I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist.
[00:00:28]Craig Dalton (host): This week on the show. I welcome Kyle rang court from pine Berry clothing. Onto the show. Kyle and I first got connected at the Maine bicycle show in Portland, Oregon, and I was super excited to talk to them about the new type of wool he's using in conducting this clothing line. And I was incredibly excited to learn that all of their manufacturing for pine Barre happens in the United States.
After this conversation, you'll learn a little bit more about his history and his family's history in manufacturing in the United States. So I hope you give them a [email protected]. Before I jump in. If you're a long time listener, you might know I've been drinking. One for over five years,
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So suffice it to say I've recommended AIG. To my friends and family for many years. And for those of you who are competitive athletes. No fear. AIG one is also and S F certified for sport it's formulated based on the latest science. And maintains the highest quality standards. If you want to take ownership of your health, it all starts with a G. try AIG one and get a free one year supply of a vitamin D three K two and five free AIG one travel packs with your first purchase.
Simply go to drink. Dot com slash the gravel ride. That's drink AIG one.com/the gravel ride. To check it out today. Would that business behind us, let's jump right in to my conversation with Kyle.
Hey, Kyle, welcome to the show.
[00:02:41]Kyle Rancourt: Hey, thanks for having me. Happy to be here.
[00:02:44]Craig Dalton (host): I feel like this is the second week in the row where I have to say to the guests, like, sorry for the trials and tribulations of getting you on. We've had some fits and starts trying to record this, but we're finally getting it done.
[00:02:54]Kyle Rancourt: Yeah, that's that's the important thing is we're here now. So glad to be here.
[00:02:59]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. I can't wait to, to sort of explore your story a little bit. We met at the maid bike show in Portland, Oregon, where you were there representing your brand Pineberry. Um, with jerseys and arm warmers and socks, but there's so much to the story as I got to know you a little bit in Portland, I'd love to just step back and just get to know you a little bit and sort of follow your journey into cycling first and then into manufacturing and creating this brand.
[00:03:28]Kyle Rancourt: Yeah, actually it's funny you bring up the maid show I got an email today from the organizers of maid that they're it's on again for next year and They're already planning it and I reserved my booth. So Uh, hopefully i'll see you there again excited to to be part of it.
[00:03:45]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. It was such a. Just a great show. I mean, as someone who's been to like Interbike and CABDA and some of these old industry shows and then the North American Handmade Bike Show, this was just a nice amalgamation of them all. It was small and intimate. And I feel like around every single corner of that show, I was finding brands that I loved or wanted to talk to the founders.
So much fun. Highly recommend it. And hopefully I'll be back there again myself.
[00:04:12]Kyle Rancourt: Yeah, I totally agree. It was a great experience
[00:04:15]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. So tell me about where did you grow up and how did you find the bike originally?
[00:04:20]Kyle Rancourt: I grew up in Lewiston, Maine, which is, um, about 30 miles north of Portland, Maine. Uh, we're, we're an interior city, an inland city, so we're not on the coast. Um, there's... Uh, really great ice hockey heritage here. Um, some, some great, you know, hockey players have come from this area. And, uh, so I grew up on skates.
Uh, that was, that's sort of my, was my, my first love as an athlete was, was skating and playing ice hockey. Um, and I think, you know, those experiences in Maine have definitely, uh, informed my, um, and my, my experiences as an athlete going forward.
[00:05:15]Craig Dalton (host): And did you, did you continue playing hockey through college?
[00:05:18]Kyle Rancourt: No, I played a little bit of club hockey in college. Um, but no, pretty much stopped after, after my senior year of high school or freshman year of college. Um, and you asked how I, I got into cycling. So. It was actually through triathlon. So, um, in college, I, you know, wanted to get back in shape. I started running and swimming, um, just for exercise.
And then after college, um, I continued and I had a coworker who was into triathlon and suggested I try one. He, are you familiar with the Xterra? Triathlon it's like the off road triathlon. So he was doing one of these. I think it was in New Hampshire it was one summer and He suggested I join him and I really I hadn't ridden a bike since I was a kid probably I was about I was maybe 24 or 25 at the time.
So it'd been a long time, you know I grew up obviously riding bikes in the neighborhood and in mountain biking with friends. I always had a mountain bike, but I think organized team sports took over in high school and, uh, stopped riding my bike. So I bought a used mountain bike from a friend and, uh, started riding with the local bike shop.
I went in to have it tuned up and they told me they had a group ride every Wednesday. And so I went to the It was a mountain bike group ride and I was just terrible. I was such a fish out of water. I remember we, we were riding up this trail, this single track, and there was a log down in, in, uh, over like across the trail and I got off my, I saw the other guys like hopping over it.
And I got off my bike and, and walked over it. And I, a guy next to me was like, Oh, this is all you have to do. Just ride up to it and, you know, lift up on the handlebars and then, you know, pick your feet up to kick your rear wheel over and that's it. And I was like, Oh my God. I was like, what did I get myself into?
He made it sound so easy, but in the moment it seemed impossible. Um, but I kept at it. And, uh, fell in love with the sport. I did some triathlons. I, uh, that XTERRA triathlon was the first one. And then I, um, I did a couple like sprint and Olympic distance road triathlons after that. And, and very quickly realized that I not only was better at cycling than I was at running and swimming, but I actually liked it a lot more as well.
And so I feel like this is a common story, but it wasn't, it wasn't very long before I dropped the running and swimming act and became a
[00:08:05]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah.
[00:08:06]Kyle Rancourt: full
[00:08:06]Craig Dalton (host): Certainly my experience as well. Much easier to drop running and swimming than it is cycling.
[00:08:11]Kyle Rancourt: Yeah, exactly. So yeah, the rest is history. Um, I've been
[00:08:16]Craig Dalton (host): Were you back in Lewis, in Lewiston at that point?
[00:08:18]Kyle Rancourt: yeah, I moved back home, started to join the family business.
[00:08:23]Craig Dalton (host): Interesting. And I know we want to get into this. So what is that family business?
[00:08:28]Kyle Rancourt: Uh, we are footwear manufacturers. We make shoes here in Lewiston. We have, we have a factory that, that we've had here for over 50 years and we have our own brand we sell online. Um, we also sell to retail stores all around the world. And, um, we're a private label manufacturer, so we make footwear for other brands as well.
So, yeah, lots of big brands you've, you've definitely heard of, and, and if you've worn some of their Made in USA, uh, lines of shoes, it's... There's a good chance we made them. The Rancourt's of Lewiston, Maine made them.
[00:09:05]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. What, say, drop the name again of the brand?
[00:09:08]Kyle Rancourt: It's called Rancourt and Company.
[00:09:11]Craig Dalton (host): Okay. And are they making, um, like leather boots? Is that the type of
[00:09:16]Kyle Rancourt: Yeah, leather, leather dress and casual shoes, you know, everything from loafers and boat shoes to, to boots. You know, we even make winter boots with shearling lining and, you know, rugged vibram soles. Um, but definitely in, in the lifestyle lane, not like work boots or anything like that.
[00:09:36]Craig Dalton (host): Gotcha. So interesting. So the facilities right there in Maine, how many people does it employ?
[00:09:42]Kyle Rancourt: Uh, we employ about 50 people. So there are approximately 40 shoemakers, um, in the factory making shoes every day.
[00:09:53]Craig Dalton (host): That's fascinating. And I'm imagining, so you've probably got a sort of a leather cut and sew kind of mechanism there. And then you've also got to make the sole. There's probably a bunch of components to that manufacturing process.
[00:10:06]Kyle Rancourt: Yeah, there's like, there's over a hundred steps in the process. Making shoes is, uh, is more complicated than, than people think. But yeah, there's, there's a lot of different steps. So we do everything from, from start to finish right in that factory.
[00:10:21]Craig Dalton (host): It was super interesting. Um, I'll put a link to that brand in the show notes. I'm sure people will be interested to seeing what shoes come out of that factory. And now I'm scratching my head because I do have a couple of like American made boots and wondering if they came out of that factory.
[00:10:38]Kyle Rancourt: it's possible. It's a good chance.
[00:10:41]Craig Dalton (host): All right. Well, we're not here to talk about shoes. We're here to talk about. Your clothing brand. So why don't we talk about like, what was the journey like talk about the Pineberry brand? What led you to creating it? And then I've got a ton of questions about the product and the type of material you're using, et cetera.
[00:10:59]Kyle Rancourt: Yeah. Um, so like I said, I, about... 14 years ago, I is when I would identify as a cyclist. I began identifying as a cyclist and fell in love with the sport and became a huge part of my life. Um, I, I was racing on the road for many years and, you know, continue doing triathlons from here and there. And, but really, I would say, um, you know, When the pandemic started in 2020, um, it became a much bigger part of my life.
I, uh, was, I had dabbled in gravel cycling for a long time. You know, I raced, my first bike race I ever did other than a triathlon was a cyclocross race. So I had always been in that sort of off road space or culture. Um, and so, you know, we would, it was, I remember in 2013, 2014, like we didn't even have a word called gravel cycling.
We would just go ride dirt roads with our cyclocross bikes, you know? Um, and, but as the gravel thing, the gravel boom grew and the, with the pandemic, spending more time at home and kind of having more free time. Um, I started doing these really long gravel rides with friends and which led to, you know, signing up for.
Unbound 200. And you can imagine, I'm sure, you know, all the training that goes into trying to, trying to finish one of those. So cycling just became this huge part of my life. And I started thinking more and more about the apparel that I was wearing, you know, the gear that I was buying and wearing, um, and how it performed and, and where it was made and, you know, what.
what was ideal, I think, for, for me as a cyclist. And, um, that's where the, that's the seed was planted that I wanted to try something different and, and follow this passion into the cycling industry. And I had always loved, uh, Merino wool, the, the story, the feel of it, the performance, you know, the performance aspect of it.
Um, How, you know, it dries so quickly, and even though it's super light, it still can be extremely warm, the warmth to weight ratio is pretty much unmatched. Um, when it's wet, it continues to keep you warm, you know, there's, it's, it's really like this magical fiber.
[00:13:46]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, it really is. I think I got my first exposure to Merino outside of cycling. It was sort of Envogue for hiking and you know, REI or someone might have had Merino wool long underwear And I remember doing some hiking trips and thinking like oh, this is great but when I think about where I thought about at the time wool for cycling It was a hundred percent always in the retro Jersey.
I remember I had one from Pearl Izumi and one from a company that my wife worked for. And it was like an old school aesthetic, old wool Jersey. And it reminded me of like the Randonneur culture. And to your point, like it, it had these amazing attributes. But it never felt like me as a cyclist, like I might even wear it as more as a casual sweater than I ever did on the bike that the, those garments I was describing.
But I know now that wool has so many different attributes depending on how it's made. So I'm interjecting my own thoughts, but love to hear you continue your journey of like, okay, you've kind of stumbled upon wool as being this magic fabric, but how do you make it? Modern and and, you know, make the right aesthetic for gravel cyclists.
[00:15:01]Kyle Rancourt: Yeah, like you, you know, to your point, I, I had only used it for like hiking and skiing, you know, uh, I didn't mention that earlier, but, um, you know, in addition to, to my, Winter, winter sport, hockey career. I also am an avid skier and have been my whole life whenever I wasn't, when I was growing up, whenever I wasn't playing hockey, I was skiing.
It was like, I was doing those two things. I was always on ice or snow. I, to this day, I absolutely love winter. I look forward to it. I love ice and snow and, and you know, the opportunities that it provides for, for outdoor activities. Um, so. You know, it was a part of my hockey and merino wool was a part of my hockey and skiing kit, you know, as base layers or long underwear, things like that.
So I was always aware of it. And then I started to see in the market, um, some cycling brands were making base layers or accessories out of merino wool and maybe a jersey or two, right? Like I bought a jersey. I bought a merino jersey from Bontrager years ago. I bought a couple from this Italian brand that I was into and I I thought two things.
One, I liked what they were doing, but I felt like I could do it better, and nobody was specializing in it. That was the key thing is that, um, there are merino specialty companies, but not in the cycling space. And so the brands that were making merino wool, um, pieces for their cycling lines, it always felt a little bit like an afterthought.
Or like you mentioned, it was sort of this like retro throwback. piece, you know, that, like that Bontrager jersey I bought years ago was very much in, in, you know, in that vein. It was, it was like this. Old school, you know, sort of heavy wool had, um, these retro elements to it. It didn't, it, it felt, yeah, it didn't feel like it was this, this core piece that they were, you know, trying to, trying to put out there.
Um, so when I, when I made, finally made a decision to do this, I started researching Marino wool, yarn, and fabric, and I very quickly came across. This company based in New Zealand, they're called, uh, TMC, the Merino company. And they have a patented technology, uh, called New Yarn. It's a patented yarn spinning technology.
And, um, essentially, they're able to spin Merino fibers without twisting them. Conventional merino, uh, core spun and ring spun merino. When, when those fibers get spun, they get twisted and the twisting, it creates a rope like structure. So it takes out, to put it in the most basic terms, it takes out the volume and the elasticity.
So you're inhibiting the natural benefits of merino wool. So with this new yarn technology, they're, they're able to create. A merino wool yarn and fabric that performs as closely to merino wool in nature as possible. So they're not inhibiting any of the benefits. And what you get in the end is a laundry list of, of benefits over conventional merino.
But the most important ones are, it's nine times more durable than conventional merino. It's um, has 85 percent more elasticity, which you can imagine for a cycling jersey is incredibly important. So we make a cycling jersey that's really comfortable in form fitting, and it has no Lycra in it whatsoever.
It's all, um, mechanical stretch from, from these Merino fibers. Um, and
[00:18:58]Craig Dalton (host): when I put it on, I mean, everybody's used to these Lycra jerseys that kind of stretch over your arms and body. Does it sort of have a semblance of that stretch and give?
[00:19:06]Kyle Rancourt: it does. Yeah, very much. So it, I think. most people wouldn't even notice the difference in terms of the fit. And, and the benefits are, um, Lycra tends to break down faster than other fibers, and it doesn't deal with moisture very well. So it doesn't dry very fast. It doesn't wick very well. So you take out You take lycra out of the equation and you get some performance benefits there.
So I fell in love with this, this new yarn merino and, um, decided to, to dedicate this, this new project to it. So, um, most of our pieces, all of our apparel and, uh, is made from new yarn, new yarn merino wool fabric now.
[00:19:52]Craig Dalton (host): So you found the yarn and the material. There's a big kind of process between that and actually having a finished garment and designing it. Did you have any experience in that realm? Or was it a lot of trial and error with the sewers to kind of get the fit you were looking for?
[00:20:09]Kyle Rancourt: Yeah, so I have a lot of product development experience and design experience, but only in footwear. So that was, um, there was a sharp learning curve for me, for sure. I, I would say over somebody with no experience, I definitely had a huge advantage having the background that I do in shoes and footwear, um, in getting this thing off the ground.
But at the same time, uh, the apparel business and making apparel clear, you know, has its own intricacies and, uh, this knowledge that this deep knowledge that you, that you need to acquire, I think, to be able to do something like this. The one of the, after finding, yeah, go ahead.
[00:20:59]Craig Dalton (host): yeah, just to say, I think one of the wonderful things about sewing is you can, you know, work with a sewer to pattern, you can test things if they need to be adjusted. It's quite easy and fluid to have that conversation with a sewer to get the right fit and feel. And then once you have it patterned, obviously it can then be replicated.
[00:21:18]Kyle Rancourt: Yeah. Yeah. So it's in to add to that after find after finding this sort of Developing the idea, finding the fabric that I wanted to use. The next step was finding a manufacturing partner. Um, and I knew I wanted to do this here in the U S American manufacturing is super important to me. Obviously that's, um, my background and what, and my family business for as long as I can remember is, has been us manufacturing.
So I found a manufacturing partner and they connected me with, um, you know, Pattern maker and in product development people. And so that's that's where we got the ball rolling there.
[00:22:01]Craig Dalton (host): Nice. Understandably, you were interested in doing a U S manufacturing approach, as you said, given your family's history, do you want to talk about some of the trade offs there that, you know, in your mind is someone who's starting a brand, obviously there's cost trade offs, there's quality trade offs.
Where do you see it all kind of fitting together? And to add to that question, I know sustainability is an important part of the brand. So if you just kind of want to layer in that thought process and some of the net results of manufacturing in the United States.
[00:22:33]Kyle Rancourt: Yeah, so the number one thing that I think Most people probably understand but but for those that don't is that manufacturing in the United States is extremely expensive you know and the reason is The, the craftspeople, you know, working in these factories, they are paid well, you know, they're paid living wages, and I, that's super important to me, that's like, the number one reason why I support manufacturing, and, you know, would never, Make things elsewhere just wouldn't be worth it to me is that reason that the Workers are not being exploited.
They're being treated fairly Um, they're being paid fairly and from for many of them, it's Um, it's a tradition You know what they're doing that is a lot of times it's a family tradition in our shoe factory. We have three, three generations of people, you know, who've, who've been shoemakers and continue to do so.
Um, so that's the number one thing, you know, a trade off there is, is, you know, domestic manufacturing is expensive for that reason, um, that, that the wages here are just higher, but at the same time, there are considerable cost savings in, in shipping and freight. You know, you're, you're not shipping everything, all your, um, all your materials, your finished goods, your samples, you know, everything you need in order to, uh, to make your goods, you're not shipping to Southeast Asia or to South America, wherever you're, you're manufacturing overseas.
So there's cost savings there and then, you know, the simplification of, of logistics. Um, and so, you know, that. That comes into play on the sustainability side too, you know, our our apparel is made in Massachusetts. We're in Maine. Like, that's a very short car ride. You know, I can drive to the factory. I can see my things being made and then the shipping, you know, shipping from Massachusetts to Maine is, is again, very uh, minimal.
It's, it's inexpensive. There's very low carbon emissions. Um, yeah, it's, I think that's one of the often overlooked. Benefits of US manufacturing, you know when you're an American brand who's selling mostly in the United States. Is that the transportation?
[00:25:07]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. Yeah. I think when NUS, when we pick up garments on the rack at our local bike shop, it's, it's easy to forget what that product took to get there. And if you think about an offshore manufacturing setup, the designer probably is flying over to Asia, wherever it's being manufactured to work with the factory, try to get it right.
Maybe then they get, then go home, get a sample sent to them. The sample's got some minor thing wrong with it, so they have to fly back to Asia, work with the factory. Yeah. And then these factories don't operate well unless you have Significant volume. So maybe you have to take a hundred pieces of every size in order to get a run done with that factory.
And God forbid there's an error in any of those things that has been sent to you. So now you're sitting on a hundred garments of which you kind of have to sell, right? Because you've paid for that inventory and all of a sudden you have to make these really tough decisions as a brand to say, like. Okay. I really set out on this journey to have a super high quality level, but what has turned out in this factory experience is not really what I want to achieve as a brand.
And you either scrap it and lose all that money, or you sell it and your reputation takes a hit. And I think that's the trade off. I mean, obviously like you're able to make sure that those first five, 10 that came off the line are perfect. Cause you can go down to Massachusetts and make sure they're everything you as the product designer.
Wanted to express in that garment.
[00:26:35]Kyle Rancourt: Yeah, those are all those are all great points Alright
[00:26:40]Craig Dalton (host): That's why I get paid the big bucks, Kyle.
[00:26:43]Kyle Rancourt: The though I I sort of noted or remarked, uh, to others, you know, noted internally or remarked to others many times that how invaluable it was that I could just drive an hour and a half and be at my factory whenever I needed to be. Um, you know, I, to be honest, it was I, I can't complain, but at the same time, I'm so used to having my factory in my backyard.
Like our family shoe business, the factory is two miles away, you know, so we, we live there basically. Um, so driving an hour and a half was a big change, but still, I'm, I'm, I was there, you know, frequently and during that first production run. And when we were. you know, developing the patterns, doing, doing fittings down there.
I was there multiple times to do that process as well. So, um, yeah, just invaluable having it so close.
[00:27:44]Craig Dalton (host): a hundred percent. I mean, to my backstory, I ran a manufacturing facility in San Francisco and went through that same journey. It was just so nice to work with the craftsmen and women. And if there was a problem, you can just kind of address it right there on the fly. If you get customer feedback, you know, it's not like you have thousands of these garments sitting around.
It can get be woven into the products very quickly because you're, I assume you're not sort of being forced to hold a ton of inventory at any one time.
[00:28:15]Kyle Rancourt: Yeah, I think, I think in general, um, another benefit of domestic manufacturing is that the minimums will are lower, you know, that's not always the case. I've definitely encountered some U. S. apparel factories where the minimums are very high. Um, but in general, you can make smaller quantities of things.
And so, yeah, it leads to, you know, a business and an organization that's a lot more agile. You know, as you, as you said, you can, you can make changes on the fly, um, without, you know, without worrying about, uh, the thousands or tens of thousands of, of garments that you have in production or in inventory. So it's a, it's a great place.
Um, I think it's a great place to start. And for me, it's the place I'll continue to be. I wouldn't do this any other way. Um, but I, I have many friends who started apparel businesses and started in the US, um, because it's, there's easy, easy entry and then have moved some production overseas, you know, sometimes in Europe or, or in, in Asia, but it's a great starting place.
[00:29:32]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. I think, I mean, these are some of the trade offs that one gets as an entrepreneur and a founder, right? As you scale and then you start to see, Hey, well, maybe, maybe REI would sell this line, but the price point has to be different. And then you, I mean, then there's just a decision point there to say like, maybe part of the line is always made in the U S and maybe part works with, uh, an ethically sourced factory overseas, which is possible as well.
[00:29:59]Kyle Rancourt: Yeah. And it's, as you know, it's really common in the industry for that to happen. You know, there's many brands who are doing that.
[00:30:07]Craig Dalton (host): Let's, uh, transition and talk about the products in your collection. I'm interested just to hear you describe the aesthetic and then maybe just call out some of the garments that you have available at this point.
[00:30:19]Kyle Rancourt: Um, yeah, so the The collection is growing, uh, pretty rapidly, but right now what we're, what we have to offer is pretty tight assortment. Um, because I, I had Kind of two things that I really wanted to focus on when we got up and running. Uh, we just launched in, in April of, of 2023, April of this year. So we have, uh, cycling jerseys, short and long sleeve, you know, traditional full zip with three pockets in the back.
And then we have performance tees, short sleeve and long sleeve. And we also have a sock collection, um, that's made for us by Defeat, which is, you know, a very well known and well regarded manufacturer. Um, Sock Factory has been around over 30 years. They make all their own socks. And so they do essentially like a private label for us.
So it's our custom designs and specifications, but made by Defeat. And
[00:31:19]Craig Dalton (host): Are they also doing the arm warmers?
[00:31:21]Kyle Rancourt: they do the arm warmers. Yeah. They're a great partner.
[00:31:25]Craig Dalton (host): yeah, my eagle eye caught that one because I have to say that, that garment is awesome. But the, the wool arm warmers in San Francisco with the wet fog we have here, I can't tell you how invaluable they've been to my, my wardrobe for sure.
[00:31:39]Kyle Rancourt: I bet, and they're so versatile because, you know, you can, you can wear them under a t shirt if you're hiking or you're just on like a, you know, chill mountain bike ride or whatever. Um, but they, same with a cycling jersey, you know, you wear them under a short sleeve jersey and, and it just makes that both garments way more versatile.
So,
[00:32:00]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah.
[00:32:01]Kyle Rancourt: so yeah,
[00:32:02]Craig Dalton (host): been using your, I've been using your short sleeve Jersey, not the Jersey, excuse me, the t shirt that I got in, uh, and at made at the made bike show. And it's been great. I mean, I, I do love, as you've said, it's it, you can sweat in it, but it'll dry. You don't smell, you know, there's all sorts of good attributes there.
[00:32:20]Kyle Rancourt: You don't have to wash it every time you wear it. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, so we, we, our first season, um, was a sort of light mid weight. merino that we used, which is great for sort of all, you know, year round wear. And again, we have the short sleeve and long sleeve jersey and the performance tees.
And then just recently we, we launched our fall winter collection, which is a heavier midweight merino. Um, I, which I absolutely love just that little extra weight adds, you know, a really luxurious feel to it. Um, but it's still extremely light, you know, we've had customers order the new jerseys and say and say Oh, this isn't as as heavy as I thought or isn't as thick as I thought um, but then after they wear it, you know, they realize that it doesn't need to be because that new yarn fabric is just It's so amazing.
There's such an excellent warmth to weight ratio.
[00:33:23]Craig Dalton (host): Gotcha. Interesting. Yeah, I'd be curious. That thicker one sounds perfect for this time of year around here. It's interesting as you like try different materials and different garments, how you have to rethink your layering strategy of what makes sense and adds up to the level of warmth that you need.
I've been playing around with a few garments lately and sometimes I'm a big winner and sometimes I'm a big loser that I've just got it all wrong and end up too cold or too hot.
[00:33:50]Kyle Rancourt: Oh, these, like, our long sleeve, the new fall long sleeve jersey, it's called the, um, the Grafton long sleeve jersey, is, uh, 180 grams per square meter. That's the weight of the fabric, which is on, like, the heavier end of a mid weight. And... You know, it's very cold in Maine right now. Today I went out for a ride.
It was about 38 degrees Fahrenheit. Um, and I wear that thing with no base layer. Usually, uh, uh, if it's, if it's in the thirties, I'll go the jersey and a vest of either like a light thermal vest or a wind vest and, and the jersey and that's it, and I'm, I'm plenty warm. And one of the things I. I always disliked about riding in the winter, was wearing bulky clothes on the bike.
I just found to be so uncomfortable. And so this transforms that experience because you can, you know, you put a light, even if you put a light base layer, one of our jerseys and then a vest, there's almost no bulk there and you're plenty warm in, you know, high twenties or even low thirties.
[00:35:01]Craig Dalton (host): Wow.
[00:35:02]Kyle Rancourt: Nice pair of gloves, some warm shoes, good to go.
[00:35:08]Craig Dalton (host): And your aesthetic is sort of very kind of clean and earthy. Is that the right way to describe
[00:35:14]Kyle Rancourt: Yeah, yeah, I would, uh, I've been a long time fan of minimalist design. So, um, we have this one signature, you know, design element, the double stripe on the sleeve, which, you know, has this, of course, like, retro feel. You know, racing stripes and across all all sports, right from auto racing to cycling and running the stripe, you know, the retro stripe look so we have that one design element.
And then other than that, they're just solid colors. And I focused really on picking colors, um, that that represent the brand and its heritage being in Maine. So, um, you know, the, the first season, it was like our granite gray, you know, for the, for the granite mountain, big old granite mountains here in Maine, um, pine green, for obvious reasons, Maine is the pine tree state and then Atlantic blue, you know, a nice dark, like Navy blue, um, to represent, you know, our, our Atlantic coast.
And then, The fall, uh, we added, we added black, um, and then sort of this, this rusty red color we're calling brick red, reddish brown color, which is really beautiful, and, uh, and moonbeam, which is this warm off white, um, that to me sort of symbolizes the shorter You know, the shorter days and that early moonrise of fall and winter.
So yeah, really simple design, minimalist design, and a focus on telling color stories, but in these like muted earth tones,
[00:37:00]Craig Dalton (host): Gotcha. Yeah. Everybody can take a look at pineberry. us, which is the website. Any advice you'd give someone who finds you online in terms of how to get the correct fit of the jersey?
[00:37:12]Kyle Rancourt: um, all of our garments are run true to size for us sizing. Um, but we do have a size chart on every product page, so you can match up your. Your chest measurements or your height and weight, um, and pick the best size for you. The The jerseys are meant to be more of a relaxed, like, club fit, so if you order your, your regular size, you can expect that.
It's not going to be like this really, they're not aero jerseys, you know, they're not meant to be really tight fitting. Um, but they are tailored and snug, like you'd expect from, you know, a performance road jersey.
[00:37:52]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. Gotcha. Where's the best place for listeners to follow your story?
[00:37:58]Kyle Rancourt: Um, Probably on Instagram. Well, there's two actually. Um, that's a great question. Definitely Instagram. Always. We're very active. They're always posting, you know, our adventures, new products, um, uh, in our, on our stories and reels and posts. So lots of, lots of great content there. But then we also, I want to, I'm glad you brought this up.
I have this Pineberry Journal component to the website. And It's really about telling, it's about taking time to tell stories about outdoor. adventures or what inspires people about their environment. And, um, I'm, I'm trying to have a contributor every two or three weeks. I haven't been super successful at that.
So, you know, there'll be like two in a month and then I think I missed a month and, you know, we have like three lined up right now, three contributors. Um, but I'm bringing in, you know, a, a really wide variety of. So we've had, um, runners, cyclists, we had a gentleman from Maine who's a writer, who's an avid fly fisherman, and he wrote this, you know, really beautiful piece about, um, discovering your new home water, because he moved here from, from Washington, and when he moved to Maine, he, he had to discover his, his new home water.
So, and then we have a, like a champion, um, horseback rider and trainer who I went out and spent a day with and, and, uh, photographed her riding and training horses. And so, you know, we're telling these stories about these amazing things people are doing outdoors.
[00:39:43]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. Awesome. I clicked through some of them. And, uh, yeah, it's always, I love seeing that. I think. It acknowledges that most of the people who are going to be visiting your site are probably multi sport athletes and outdoors people. So you've got the cycling specific garments, but you've also got t shirts and long sleeve t shirts out of the same performance wool that people can use for fly fishing or horseback riding or hiking or all of the
[00:40:10]Kyle Rancourt: Yeah. Yeah. And there's more coming, you know, we're gonna, we're focusing, uh, some time on, um, building out the hiking and running apparel line. And then we're going to, we're going to gear up for skiing as well. So we'll have a couple items this winter coming out for skiing and more in the future.
We'll always be a cycling focused and cycle and rooted in cycling. Um, but, uh, definitely wanting to serve, you know, other athletes or, or the cyclist like myself who loves doing other things as well.
[00:40:44]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. Awesome. Well, Kyle, thanks for joining us. Thanks for telling this American made story. I love what you're doing over there at Pineberry and I hope many of our listeners will go over there and check you out.
[00:40:54]Kyle Rancourt: Thank you very much. I appreciate it. Good. Spend some time with you today.
[00:40:57]Craig Dalton (host): That's going to do it for this week's edition of the growl ride podcast. Big, thanks to Kyle for joining us and telling us all about. The pine Berry story.
I love, love, love that they're manufacturing in the United States and I'm intrigued by this new wool story I've been using one of their performance teas for a while. And all the attributes Kyle mentioned are coming true. I'm excited to try one of their performance jerseys. They're particularly their new one.
They just launched the winter weight as it's getting cold here in mill valley. And I could use a way to warm up on those early Dawn patrol rides. Big, thanks to our friends at age. For supporting the show this week, remember head on over to drink ag one. one.com/the gravel ride to get that free one year supply of vitamin D three K two and five free AIG. travel packs.
And if you, dear listener are looking for a way to support the show, there's a couple easy ways in which you can do it. Ratings and reviews are hugely appreciated in the podcast world. They really help in our discoverability and connecting with other gravel cyclists. Around the world, or if you're able to financially support the show, please visit buy me a coffee.com/the gravel ride. Until next time. Here's to finding some dirt onto your wheels.
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This week we are joined by Eric Sutter, race director and founder of the Open Range 200k in Kansas. Learn Eric’s unexpected journey to becoming a race director and why the southern region of Kansas deserves its own exploration.
Open Range 200k
Episode sponsor: Hammerhead Karoo 2 (use promo code: TheGravelRide for free HRM)
Support the Podcast
Join The Ridership
Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos:
[00:00:00]Craig Dalton: Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport
I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist.
This week on the podcast, I'm welcoming Eric Sutter. He's the race director and founder of open range gravel in Kansas . The event takes place in April every year and is going on to its seventh edition in 2024. I'm going to flag this right away. Registrations opening this coming weekend. November 25th after Thanksgiving.
So make sure to check it out. If you're interested after hearing. Eric's journey to becoming a gravel race organizer. It's quite a fascinating journey. It's not as someone who started. Riding gravel bikes ages ago. He picked it up
after coming into the world of endurance athletics via kayaking. Of all things. I hope you enjoy the conversation, but before we dive in, I do need to thank this week sponsor, hammerhead and the hammerhead crew to. Computer.
It's been a minute since I've spoken about the hammerhead crew to computer. It's my daily computer on my gravel bike. I enjoy it. A whole hell of a lot. If you'll pardon my French. It's one of those devices that continues to grow and evolve over time.
And I think that's what I like so much about the hammerhead device. I'm getting a software update every few weeks and sometimes it's spot on and something I'm using. And sometimes it's something that I don't know, I need to use. Or would even want to use. For example, it was probably three or four months ago.
I got an update around accommodating e-bike features. And since I wasn't an e-bike rider. I didn't have a lot of need for it, but lo and behold, and this is my dirty little secret. I am now the owner of a mountain bike. So I'm excited to explore the features and functionality that I can bring to the crew too.
Just to understand battery life of my motor and my battery and make sure I don't get lost out there without the power to come home. Don't worry. I'm still a fan of peddling my bike. I just thought it would be a lot of fun. Getting an E mountain bike. The other thing, as you know, if you've heard me talk about the hammerhead career to you before. I love the elevation and climb feature that they rolled out quite some time ago with the climbing feature, you can see what's ahead of you in any climb that you're approaching, whether you have a map loaded or not.
For me, it's really helpful if I'm a new terrain, just understanding am I in for a long grind or is this a shorter climb where I can really push. As we're coming into winter, it's important that the crew too has both touchscreen capabilities. But also physical buttons. So if you've got some heavy duty gloves on, you can still manipulate the device and go to all the screens. You need. Right now our listeners can get a free heart rate monitor with the purchase of our hammerhead crew to simply visit hammerhead.io right now and use the promo code. The gravel ride at checkout. To get yours today. This is an exclusive offer.
So don't forget that promo code, the gravel ride. You'll get that free heart rate monitor with the purchase of your career to go to hammerhead.io today. Add both items to your cart and use the promo code, the gravel ride. Would that business behind us let's get right into my conversation with Eric.
[00:03:39]Craig Dalton (host): Eric, welcome to the show. Thanks, Craig. Thanks for having me on. I didn't think this was a long time coming, but as we just remembered, this is about three and a half years in the making since our first email exchange.
[00:03:52]Eric Sutter: That's right. Yeah. We, uh, we sent a couple of emails back and forth and then I think life just happened and, you know, stuff gets, uh, gets passed on and, and, uh, but it's good to, it's good to be here.
Good to finally be on and, uh, and get to talk with you and your, your listeners.
[00:04:05]Craig Dalton (host): Right on. Yeah. Shout out to Wade for reconnecting us. Telling me a little bit about your story, which I see you gave me in your 2020 email. So I'm excited to talk about both the OpenRange 200k, but also I think it's important when we talk about events and event organizing, just to hear a little bit about your backstory.
So to set the stage, why don't you just let the listener know, where'd you grow up? What'd you do as a kid? How'd you get into endurance athletics? I know there's a lot to this story, so we can take it
[00:04:33]Eric Sutter: slowly, bit by bit. Yeah. And feel free to interrupt me at any point to, to dive in more. Um, so I, I grew up in Pratt.
Um, it's about a, uh, an hour and a half West of Wichita, which most people were probably familiar with the general area of where Wichita is, uh, in, in South central Kansas. Um, it's a town of about 6, 000 and, um, just a small. Independent, isolated community, um, and so in high school, uh, played sports, played, uh, baseball and football and wrestled.
And then, um, yeah, uh, went from there, went to college at Kansas State. Um, I did Army ROTC. And so I knew, I knew at that point, like, going into the Army is what I wanted to do. And, uh, and so did that commissioned, um, and actually, uh, went into aviation. So flew, um, and still currently fly helicopters, uh, for the army.
Um, and
[00:05:25]Craig Dalton (host): did that initially take you outside of Kansas when you first
[00:05:28]Eric Sutter: deployed? Yeah, it did. So, um, and, and I really had, had only lived in the Midwest, Kansas, Missouri, Oklahoma growing up. And so, uh, my first, uh, first kind of visit outside besides just. You know, uh, having vacation somewhere was, yeah, down to Southern Alabama, yeah, which was kind of a culture shock.
So, um, went down there for, for flight training and then, um, I lived in, uh, Tennessee, Kentucky area for, uh, for most of my active duty, duty years.
[00:05:57]Craig Dalton (host): Okay. Yeah. I mean, I imagine most of us who haven't been in the military have an understanding that there's a physical fitness component of it. Do you, did the soldiers tend to recreate athletically?
Did you tend to? Yeah,
[00:06:10]Eric Sutter: yeah, definitely. So for, for aviation, uh, ultimate frisbee is kind of a, the, uh, the sport of choice. Um, okay. We play. So, uh, you know, and some people have like, you know, are, are doing marathons and stuff like that. But, um, you know, and I, I, I tried to keep, keep in shape, uh, it's always been important for me.
So, you know, trying to do, um, you know, we have our, our physical fitness tests and everything like that. So, uh, try to be in, in this.
[00:06:36]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, so it sounds like probably a little bit of running here and there. Oh yeah, definitely.
[00:06:40]Eric Sutter: Ultimate frisbee.
[00:06:41]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. Where else did the military journey take you?
[00:06:46]Eric Sutter: So yeah so, um, you know, Tennessee and Kentucky is where I was stationed, uh, and then did some deployments.
So, uh, deployed to Iraq in uh, 2005, 2006. Then went to Afghanistan in 2014, and then another deployment to Kuwait in 2017, 2018. Okay. So yeah.
[00:07:02]Craig Dalton (host): And then. Yeah. Go ahead. Then you end up back
[00:07:05]Eric Sutter: in Kansas. Yeah. So then, uh, so then ended up back in Kansas and kind of in the middle of that went off active duty and joined the National Guard and in reserves.
And so now I'm a reserve pilot.
[00:07:15]Craig Dalton (host): Okay, great. Well, first off, thank you for your service. Yeah. And it sounds like along the way you were sort of, as many of us do in our twenties and thirties, kind of Dipping a toe in the water into different sports. Yeah. So what
[00:07:29]Eric Sutter: were you doing along the way? Yeah, so Really is when I came off active duty and we moved back to Kansas City.
I was looking for something to stay active and I watched the news one night and they were showing these Kayakers that were going across the state of Missouri and I looked at my wife. I was like that that sounds kind of neat You know, I think I think I'd like to do that and again, looking for something to stay active.
I was, I was playing, um, uh, ultimate Frisbee with, uh, with a local little club, but I wanted something a little bit more to, to, to, um, really stay, stay involved in something to stay active. So the first year
[00:08:06]Craig Dalton (host): of waterways, did you have access to, to kind of learn the sport of kayaking?
[00:08:09]Eric Sutter: Yeah. So, um, we've got a couple of lakes around.
Um, and so Uh, we'll, uh, we'll do that. And there was a club that, that would meet up. And so I, you know, that's the great thing with like Facebook and, and things like that. It's finding these little clubs and organizations. And so, uh, yeah, I met up, I found a race that was happening. Um, oh man, going back, just thinking about this, like the first race, I think it was 12 miles and it was kind of a show and go.
No, you know, no awards or anything like that. Just, you know, bring your boat and let's go, go race them. I had no clue what I was doing. I had no
[00:08:47]Craig Dalton (host): idea how long a 12 mile kayak race would take someone. Um,
[00:08:51]Eric Sutter: so generally, uh, you know, in our, our kayaks, you should be able to do about, well, five miles an hour. Um, is, is it kind of a moderate to fast pace?
Um, seven miles an hour, you're, you're, you're looking at, um, so especially on flat water. Uh, so yeah, so a 12 mile would be, yeah, it'd be about two hours. Gotcha.
[00:09:15]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, I've done a little bit of paddling and there's definitely an analogy to pedaling in just in terms of the cadence of your arms and your body and that repetitive motion that every time I've rode or paddled, like it does appeal to me much in the same way riding a bike appeals to
[00:09:29]Eric Sutter: me.
Right. Yeah. And it's kind of the same thing, you know, you can go to a certain level of exertion, um, and then like your gains just don't go much higher for the amount of energy it takes to go faster. You just hit that, that drag, uh, coefficient and it's, uh, but yeah.
[00:09:47]Craig Dalton (host): So it sounds like you got sucked into the sport of kayaking at that point.
I
[00:09:51]Eric Sutter: did. Yeah. Uh, like I said, the first time it was, I was terrible. Uh, I didn't have any technique. I didn't know what I was doing. Uh, got out there, had this boat that was like 60 pounds, just this heavy plastic boat, um, with a paddle that, you know, was not efficient in the water at all. Um, but what I found was like, the people there were awesome.
They were just, you know, they didn't give me a hard time for having a shoot. Plastic, you know, boat or anything like that. And they're all in these, as you'd know, in California, like the surf skis, I mean, these 18, 20 foot long, you know, um, 22 inch wide, uh, sit on top kayaks. And, um, and they just, like I said, they just.
And so, but again, what I kind of, what I learned was that, you know, these people are just really good people, um, really great people. And I just, that's, that's probably more of what sucked me into it was just these, these awesome people that I was, I was getting to meet and everything. So, and, and the benefit of staying, staying active.
Yeah.
[00:10:50]Craig Dalton (host): You know, it's so interesting with endurance athletic and particularly like the more extreme ones, like. Ultra running or something like that. The communities are just like where, what you want, show up, show up with a good attitude. Let's all get this done. And it is so refreshing
[00:11:05]Eric Sutter: and inviting. It is.
It is. Yeah. I can't say enough. And those, those people still good friends with, with several of them that I've met that first, that first race. And this was 10, 10, 12 years ago now.
[00:11:17]Craig Dalton (host): So, so tell me about this event across Missouri. One, I have to ask what Waterway goes all the way across Missouri. So
[00:11:24]Eric Sutter: it's the and two, how long is it?
Yeah, so it's the, uh, it's the Missouri River. Uh, you start in Kansas City and it, uh, it's a 340 mile race. Um, and that generally takes the fastest, can do it in, um, the mid 30 hours, 36, 35 hours, I think is the. The fastest time, uh, and you benefiting
[00:11:46]Craig Dalton (host): from a bit of current a little
[00:11:47]Eric Sutter: bit so you can get two, two to three mile an hour, uh, add on to your, your flat water speed at that point.
And it, and it varies in different places, um, where other, um, other waterways come in, you know, other, other rivers will, will meet the Missouri, you kind of get a boost and whatnot. So as you get closer to St. Louis, uh, you get a little bit faster. Okay.
[00:12:11]Craig Dalton (host): And, you know, with a 35 hour race for the fastest people in the world, you know, many are going 40, 50 hours.
I imagine. Are you, what does it look like stopping and refueling? How does that work in a kayak event? Yeah. So
[00:12:23]Eric Sutter: every, I'd say. At least every 50 miles is a, is a ramp, a boat ramp on the Missouri river. And so you, um, you have a ground crew and they meet you at each place and they've got, you know, all your, it depends on how you set them up.
I mean, mine was my parents. Um, and so I had set up bags and resupply and stuff like that. And they would have some extra water bladders. And so I'd swap, swap out water bladders and swap out, um, you know, my nutrition and put it in a little cooler behind my, my seat and then, uh, and then go on. And so. Yeah, it's, I did it three years, uh, the first year I, I, I was, uh, I was in an outrigger and I DNF'd, uh, that year I made about a hundred and...
I think 130 miles and, um, I just had a tremendous, uh, back pain and, um, and just wasn't, wasn't going to work to, to go on. And so I kind of came back after that and figured out, okay, I want to do this a little bit different. So I got a canoe, uh, that was really light, uh, carbon, uh, or I'm sorry, Kevlar, um, Kevlar fiber canoe and did that the second, uh, my second event.
Um, And then, um, and the third time I got to a surf ski and did it in a surf ski. Okay. And so that was, was a lot of fun and, uh, and it goes a lot, a lot faster.
[00:13:42]Craig Dalton (host): Well, listener will have to forgive me in this detour down to kind of racing, but I just, I just find it fascinating.
[00:13:49]Eric Sutter: Well, and it's, you know, it's interesting, uh, being a race director now, like a lot of the things that I.
Uh, I, I learned it's from, you know, it's from the kayak world and go into different kayak races, uh, things I wanted to do and things I, you know, I wanted to make sure that we, we didn't do. And so, um, so yeah, it's, it, it played a role into the creation of. And of what I do and the race.
[00:14:14]Craig Dalton (host): Interesting. So at some point, do you wind down your kayaking career, or are you
[00:14:19]Eric Sutter: still doing that?
No, I, I wound it down. Um, I think I own, I own a, a paddle still and a life jacket, but I don't have any boats anymore. Um, and so I tried doing both for awhile and I just found, like, I wasn't, I wasn't doing anything in the kayaking side. Um, and the long distance kayaking. It really takes a toll on your ground crew and my parents don't live local.
Um, and I was, I was using my, my wife's father. Um, and they're just, you know, they're, they're getting older and it's just, it wasn't fair to them to, uh, have to, uh, have them help me out. And, and, um, and my parents would help on the MR 340 that I went across Missouri. And, uh, yeah, it was just getting to be to where that long distance was, was.
Kind of a struggle for, for getting a crew to help me out. Yeah, it makes
[00:15:09]Craig Dalton (host): sense at this point in the podcast. I don't think we've mentioned a bicycle once. When did bicycles, when did bicycles and gravel riding come into your
[00:15:19]Eric Sutter: life? Yeah. So that's an interesting story too. Like you said, we got all these different little, uh, uh, tidbits that, that, uh, spider webs or however you want to call them.
Um, but, uh, in 20. See, in 2017, I was getting ready for a deployment to Kuwait. Um, I, I, I knew I wasn't gonna be able to kayak in Kuwait and I was kind of looking for another challenge and I started getting into running. I did a half marathon in April, uh, of that year and, uh, thought, well, this is, you know, I really liked it.
And, and equipment wise, you know, running just requires your shoes. And, um, and so I thought this was. This would be kind of a neat, uh, neat sport to get into. Uh, and I think it was May, May or June of that year. Um, I was running and injured my knee and I, I don't know what happened. I had an MRI done on it.
Uh, it was kind of inconclusive, but it was enough to where, um, I knew that running was now not, not a good choice for me to continue on doing if I wanted to walk, uh, later, so. Uh, so I kind of hung that up and then as I got into Kuwait, uh, got involved with a site, they had a cycling class there. So I got involved with, with cycling, um, overseas and, uh, I've had some friends that did, um, dirty Kansas at the time and, um, talked with them.
And I kind of looked and I was like, man, this, this, this looks like fun. Like this could be the sport I get into next and didn't need necessarily didn't need a ground crew to. Uh, to shuttle my, uh, nutrition from one spot to another. I can carry it on me or on the bike or have a, you know, aid station. And so, uh, so then I just kind of got the bug and got interested in looking at different gravel races and, and I knew.
I knew based on just a little bit of watching and the friends that I knew that did gravel, um, like my personality wasn't a road, road type, um, you know, it wasn't necessarily mountain bike type, but like the gravel seemed to resonate with, with my personality and the stuff I had done before with the kayaking.
[00:17:22]Craig Dalton (host): Were you able to acquire a bike while you were in Kuwait or did you have to wait till you came
[00:17:26]Eric Sutter: back home? Yeah. So in Kuwait, um, they have a program over there where. Uh, we could rent a bike over there. Um, they were nothing, they were nothing special. They were Mongoose, um, you know, Walmart, uh, kind of mountain bikes, full suspension, you know, but it was something and it, uh, at least got me back into cycling.
Uh, and I wrote that thing, I mean, I probably wrote it more than anyone else, uh, around there. I wrote it when it was 120 degrees out and, uh, and whatnot. Um, and it was kind of interesting because as the idea for, for open range was, was kind of festering in my head. Um, and I knew it was sandy out in, in, uh, around Pratt.
Um, of course, I'm in Kuwait, which is a big desert. So I would test the bike on different types of sand there and like, okay, yeah, you can do this. And so, yeah, it was, uh, it's kind of an interesting go with that. But yeah, they do have bikes over there and was able to get miles in there.
[00:18:26]Craig Dalton (host): When you came back to the States, did you get your first proper
[00:18:29]Eric Sutter: gravel bike?
I did. And in fact, I ordered it while I was in Kuwait. Um, I ordered, uh, it was a Diamondback Honjo off of Amazon. It was on, on sale for a really. Really good price with, with pretty decent specs. And so, uh, I had it, uh, delivered, uh, to the house. I just told the wife like, Hey, you're going to get this box.
It's going to be, uh, pretty big. Yeah. Just be careful with it, you know, and whatnot. So yeah, so she got it and, uh, had it ready for me when I, when I got home. So, and were you in Kansas city
[00:19:01]Craig Dalton (host): at that point? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So you, you come home, you got your, your diamond back finally on a proper gravel bike.
Did you sort of immediately start getting into the community and talking to people and figuring out where to ride or did that take a while?
[00:19:17]Eric Sutter: Yeah, no, it, it, uh, well, so I guess we should really even back up. Before that. So, um, cause we, I, we can't go on without talking about, without actually starting to talk about open range.
If, if that's cool with you, um, because that, that really became, that came first in a way. That's so interesting.
[00:19:36]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. Walmart, uh, mongoose in the desert and you're thinking about creating a race.
[00:19:42]Eric Sutter: Right. So, and even to, to back up even more, um, if, if the, the listeners and the viewers can follow, but, um, while I was kayaking, I wanted to become a race director and set up my own race, uh, kayak race.
And so, um, I had an interest and I, I kind of figured out a place to do it, uh, down in Wichita. And I was just, I mean, it was very early on in my, my process for kind of researching it. But, um, but I wanted to, I really felt like I wanted to. Put something together. So then, uh, now fast forward back to Kuwait, uh, as I'm getting into looking at cycling and going to spin class.
And I've got this Mongoose mountain bike that I'm, uh, riding all over, over the base. Um, I get this feeling again that, you know, I got this calling that I need to put a, put a race on and it's not going to be a kayak race. It's going to be a bike race. And so I had some time and, and just started researching, uh, gravel bike races and, um, and.
Uh, where I'm from in Pratt, just south of there is the, the Gypsum Hills, Medicine Hills or Red Hills. They go by several different names. And uh, I remember when we first came to that area, just how beautiful it was. And so I thought at first that I was just going to put this, it wasn't even going to be a race.
It was just going to be me riding from, uh, Pratt where I have some family still. I was going to go down, there's a, uh, a little, uh, bar in a very sleepy town of about maybe 200 people, if that, and, uh, go down there and have a burger, and then, uh, ride back, and that would be about a 60 mile ride, and then it kind of just, one thing led to another, and I was like, well, what if What if, what if we made this a race?
What if we made this, you know, a ride down there? People get to see this awesome, uh, area of the country that no one knows about. Um, and so it kind of, one thing led to another and it just, it developed in. And okay, well, what if we did this and what if we did that? Um, and so, yeah, it just, it just blossomed from there.
I don't know if you've ever had anything, but it just, it wouldn't leave my mind, uh, for like three or four months. I mean, it just, every waking moment I was thinking about it, I was thinking, okay, what, how can we do this? How do we solve that problem? What do we do for this? And, uh, yeah, I just, I just, it really felt like a calling that like, it would feel weird not to do it, you know, at that point, even though I had never, I'd never been to a gravel race, uh, myself.
Uh, it just felt weird. Like if I didn't do this. And if we didn't do it at this point, it was never going to get done. And yeah, if I didn't do it, it just, it was going to feel weird. It's
[00:22:22]Craig Dalton (host): fascinating to sort of learn about, and you'll tell us about in the future, like how the event ended up not having the context of.
Trying to be an unbound or trying to be a BWR, any of these other things you may have seen or heard about, you had this unique experience with kayak racing and endurance athletics through a totally different filter and came back with this vision for creating the open range. It's super interesting. Yep.
[00:22:47]Eric Sutter: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. It's, uh, it, it was, it was interesting the first, you know, the first year and. And I think it went split. I mean, it really had a lot of great comments. Uh, in fact, the timer guy, uh, he, uh, he saw that I was a first time race director and, and, uh, he said later, he's like, yeah, I was, I was really worried because usually first time race directors, you know, don't know what they're doing and I've got to do everything for them.
And, and, uh, he's like, you, you had this thing. And, uh, and they'd actually asked later on if I would help out with some, some of their races, uh, stuff like that. But, uh, yeah, it was, you know, not having the, not having been to one, I didn't know, You know, besides doing some research and watching YouTube videos, I didn't, you know, I didn't have anything that I was trying to, to make it.
I didn't, you know, road wise or terrain wise, um, everything was open game to me because I wasn't trying to be like another race. So yeah,
[00:23:45]Craig Dalton (host): you, before we started recording you, we were talking about the state of Kansas and how different the geography can be as some listeners may be familiar with the Flint Hills where unbound gravel occurs.
Maybe take a moment and describe in your own words, how is it different around Pratt compared to what people may have seen around
[00:24:06]Eric Sutter: Emporia? Yeah, so, so Pratt, like right around Pratt, it's actually fairly, fairly flat, um, some undulating hills, but as you go south, and it doesn't take long, um, coming out of Pratt.
And as you go south, you start getting into the gypsum hills and it starts off a little bit like Emporia, just some nice rolling hills. Um, and then about Medicine Lodge, um, just south of Sun City. Uh, so about 35 miles in, it's just, it's like nothing you've ever seen. It's like, uh, it looks like Arizona, uh, Mars.
It's, uh, I've heard, you know, all, all of that. It's, um, it's red dirt, it's mesas and buttes with white gypsum rock. So you've got these colors that are just. Beautiful. I mean, red dirt with white rock and green grass, uh, just, just amazing. And then just the topography, just these steep buttes and bases that are out of nowhere.
Uh, just, just an amazing, uh, amazing course. Yeah, that's
[00:25:07]Craig Dalton (host): so, it's so unexpected sort of as someone with, with very little to no experience in Kansas and certainly not on the, the dirt roads and more rural areas of Kansas. So for the listener, we've been talking about it. It's sort of. It's on the southern side, the southern tip of, uh, of Kansas and also sort of the western.
Is that
[00:25:25]Eric Sutter: right? Yeah. If you,
[00:25:28]Craig Dalton (host): as the route goes, you're heading towards Oklahoma and then back.
[00:25:31]Eric Sutter: Right. Yeah. If you were to take Kansas and, um, and fold it in half, uh, east and west, and that line right there is about where Pratt Medicine Lodge is. And so we are, uh, yeah, basically in, uh, the start of western Kansas, uh, and then, about, uh, we're about.
Forty five miles north of the Oklahoma border is where Pratt is. Okay. Gotcha.
[00:25:54]Craig Dalton (host): Gotcha. And you were describing the terrain. I mean, obviously like these vistas and buttes and red dirt. Are you on dirt roads? Are you on double track? What's sort of the mixture that you ended up achieving?
[00:26:06]Eric Sutter: Yeah, so it's a little of both.
several different, uh, types of terrain. Um, Pratt is known for a lot of brick roads. So when you're actually in the town, you start off on a brick road. Um, and there's several brick roads in town. It's kind of a neat, uh, just, you know, I grew up on Main Street and at the time it was a brick highway. Um, but yeah, you start off on brick, you get some asphalt, um, and then you go into some, some dirt.
More dirt roads, um, there is some gravel, but a lot of it is, is more of a, a dirt, uh, sand base and, um, yeah, you go down there and then when you get down into, uh, the gypsum hills, we've got, um, permission from some landowners and they let us go on their, uh, their ranches. And so then you've got in, you go into the double track, uh, and sometimes, uh, sometimes it's just cattle trails.
Uh, sometimes it's. We're trying to connect areas and, uh, the rancher just mows a swath of grass and you've now got to go through the grass to get to the next spot. So, um, it really is a. It's a unique type of course. Um, there's, you know, we do put some pavement in there, so it's not completely all gravel.
Um, but that pavement, I think, helps, uh, helps people a little bit get a break from some of the rougher stuff. But, uh, but it's just a good mixture of Of, uh, pavement and, and dirt roads and just some incredible, I mean, there's, there's almost places where you think you're on a cyclocross course, places where you think you're on a mountain bike course, places where you think you're on a road race and people, places where you think you're on a gravel race.
So it's got, it's got something for everyone. Yeah.
[00:27:47]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. It's got something for everyone to love and probably something for everybody to hate, depending on their skillset. That's
right.
[00:27:53]Eric Sutter: Yeah. In fact, somebody once said like. It was like, man, your race is like the great equalizer. Like there's no, like there's no bike or no style that is suited for that rate.
Like that is just suited exactly for that. So yeah, I took that as a great compliment.
[00:28:10]Craig Dalton (host): As you should. That's awesome. So let's get into some specifics. What are the distances of the
[00:28:16]Eric Sutter: events? Yeah. So we've got a 200 K, which is our main, uh, main event. In fact, I was, when I created it, that was the only. Only distance I was gonna do.
I didn't care about a shorter distance, just gonna do a 200k. And as I was developing it, I had several people ask me if I would put together a shorter, shorter course that they didn't feel comfortable doing, uh, doing 200 K, uh, or about 126 miles. And they wanted a shorter, uh, shorter version. So, um, we have, uh, I call it the 100 K plus, and it's a 100 K plus because one year somebody got upset because, um, I was calling it the 100 K and it was like 68 or 69 miles.
And so they're like, you know, a hundred K, 63 miles, this is 68 miles. So, okay. I'll put a plus on the end of it.
[00:29:01]Craig Dalton (host): As someone who watched their odometer in the Leadville 100, click over to 100 and find myself not at the finish line, I definitely resonate with those remarks.
[00:29:10]Eric Sutter: Right. No, I did the same thing too when I raced, and so yeah, I get it.
[00:29:16]Craig Dalton (host): Um, and is it, is it actually an out and back on the same, same roads?
[00:29:21]Eric Sutter: No, so, uh, the 200 is, is almost a complete loop. Um, it, there's very few, uh, roads that you'll be on twice. The, the, the 100 K plus is a kind of like a, a little bit of like a lollipop. So you go out, you make a, a. Fairly good size loop, probably about a 30 or 40 mile loop.
And then I get, well, maybe a little bit less, but yeah, 30 mile loop. And then, and then ride kind of the same road route back. And then we also have, Oh, go ahead. Yeah.
[00:29:50]Craig Dalton (host): I was going to say there's a third option for how to participate.
[00:29:53]Eric Sutter: There is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, so there's the tour. And so, um, that goes on the 200 mile or the 200, excuse me, 200 K course.
Uh, but it's. It's split up into two days. And so you ride about 78 miles the first day, uh, camp at a, uh, authentic guest ranch out there. And then, um, and they have, uh, catered, uh, dinner and breakfast for you. And then you, you ride back. And so, yeah,
[00:30:19]Craig Dalton (host): it's an option I hadn't really seen before in that same context.
There's obviously like the XL version of any given race that you're out there on your own and you're expected to sleep in a ditch. But I really liked, as I was reading the description of the 200k tour, that you go out, you could have dropped your camping gear off, or you could stay in the lodge. Now I'm learning that you can get a nice meal.
Yep. That sounds like a great way to spend a weekend. It
[00:30:42]Eric Sutter: really is. And I wanted, the purpose of that was I wanted riders. To see, cause, and the reason why I only wanted the 200k course is because that's where the really cool, uh, route is, and the really cool topography, you still get some of it on the, the 100k, don't get me wrong, but the 200k you see quite a bit more, and I knew there were riders that wouldn't feel comfortable in their ability to, to do that all at once, and so by putting this together, Tour together it kind of your own pace.
It's non competitive you get to see it and then spend as much time as you want And then and then finish it up the next day.
[00:31:20]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah for the 200 K and the 100 K is the Orientation that this is a race and some people are going for it and there wants to be a winner
[00:31:29]Eric Sutter: Yeah, definitely on the 200 K that Yeah, we we do podium for that the 100 K I never did a podium for until last year and, uh, and so finally last year, and we'll see if I keep doing that.
I mean, I'm most likely we'll keep a podium for the 100k, um, because there are people that were taking it pretty seriously. And so, um, so I felt like it was worth it. Awarding those people, uh, for, for doing that. Yeah. And so, yeah. But yeah, the 200 K is again, the big one. Uh, the 100 k, uh, yeah, we'll still, we'll still give you an award for the top top three male and female, but it's just those, those two categories.
Yeah.
[00:32:08]Craig Dalton (host): And what year, so 2024. How many additions will we have seen at that point?
[00:32:13]Eric Sutter: Yeah, so this will be our seventh year, which is just, yeah, it's just incredible. Um, our, you know, our first year I, I told my wife, I was like, we need. We need about a hundred, I think I counted like a hundred and six people based on, uh, Uh, our, our fees that, you know, to, to kind of break even.
And, uh, and I told her, I was like, you know, if we don't get that, um, we'll count this as kind of a learning lesson, you know, uh, you know, some people pay for an MBA, some people pay, you know, for other experiences, um, you know, this will be an experience and this will be a learning experience, uh, whether we have a hundred people, whether we have 50 people or whether we have 300 people.
Um, and, and if we have to pay. Pay for that experience. Great. Um, you know, hopefully we can, you know, have a success and, and whatnot. So, um, so yeah, our first year, like I said, I, I, my goal was to get right around a hundred, I think the first day we had like 60 or 70 people registered the first day and it was just like completely blew my mind.
I was like, okay, this is interesting. You
[00:33:16]Craig Dalton (host): know, that's what I think that is interesting about the Midwest. I think, you know, obviously there's so many passionate cyclists there, so many of them either have done Unbound or can't get into Unbound or are training for Unbound because I think your events a little bit earlier in the year.
It's pretty natural that there's just going to be this pent up demand. And if you give riders a good experience, they're going to come back and they're going to tell their
[00:33:39]Eric Sutter: friends, right? Yeah, yeah, that's, uh, and we've grown, we've grown every year since then. Um, we've, we held it in 2020 when, um, a lot of races were, we're kind of taking a break that year.
Um, and we had to adjust it and that was a learning lesson too. Cause we, uh, you know, the race is at the end of April COVID hit, uh, what about the middle of the end of March? Yeah. So we knew, you know, we had to make a decision pretty quickly, uh, that we're going to have to at least postpone it. Uh, we moved it to June, um, and it's kind of funny if you watch the COVID numbers, like it took this dip right the weekend of the race and then the weekend after it climbed back up.
Not, you know, we weren't a super spreader by any means, but, uh, you know, it's just the way it happened. Uh, yeah,
[00:34:25]Craig Dalton (host): it's, it's, I think it's so interesting, just the business of event production as well that people tend to forget about. I mean, you look at how much it costs to register, but. On your end, as I know and understand, you know, there's just so much that goes into it from catering to, you know, about podium structure to PA system, to making sure there's safety out there on the course, a sweep aid stations.
Like it's definitely to your point, like you, you couldn't start that first race without committing a certain amount of dollars out of your pocket, the unknown, whether you were going to a hundred, more than a hundred people that's joined.
[00:35:02]Eric Sutter: Right. And that's what, that's kind of like, I'm, I'm very passionate about like grassroots cause I get it, you know, for the people that are starting races, um, that they're taking a, you know, they're, they're taking a chance on, you know, creating something and, and potentially being out of money, uh, you know, potentially not going how they wanted it to go their first year, uh, learning lessons.
Um, so, you know, we, uh, we had a. A local race, uh, in Kansas a couple weekends ago, and I wasn't able to attend it, but, um, I, I, they would hit me up with questions and I would kind of give them some, some help and whatnot. And so it just kind of neat to watch them and then to get, hear the responses that people that went to that race, uh, that absolutely loved it.
And so it's like, okay, cool. This is, this is neat. That's
[00:35:47]Craig Dalton (host): great. How many people are you hoping to get to the 7th edition of the Open
[00:35:51]Eric Sutter: Range? Yeah, so I think 500 is, is our, kind of our sweet spot. Um, we've been, uh, we've been right around there the last couple of years. So, um, yeah, we, we kind of capped it right around 500 and, and kind of hope to get, get to that amount.
It's, uh, it works well for the community. We can do more, um, and if we get that. I think if we get that continually, then, you know, we'll look at that, open it some more. But, uh, yeah, we can, that's kind of what we're looking at.
[00:36:24]Craig Dalton (host): What day is the race on the
[00:36:25]Eric Sutter: weekend? Yeah, it's on a Saturday. Um, and then the tour again would be a, uh, the Friday and Saturday, but yeah, it's Saturday for the majority of the people. Um, yeah, what's great about Pratt is there's a community college there and because of the community college, there's a lot of hotels and decent hotels, uh, too.
So, um, there's, yeah, there's always plenty of room, plenty of hotels and, and they're cheap. They don't gouge, um, you know, the riders coming in for open range. Yeah. So, I mean, for under a hundred bucks, you can get it. A decent hotel room. So it works out, works out real well for him. Just to give
[00:36:59]Craig Dalton (host): me a sense for, cause obviously 200 K in Kansas might be different than 200 K in California.
What are the, you know, what are the fastest men and women tend to finish in?
[00:37:08]Eric Sutter: Yeah. So, um, we've had a couple of years where the leaders are, uh, they're riding above a 20 mile an hour average, which is just incredible. Like that is well beyond my ability. Um, I don't, I, I don't get how they do it. I really, because if you see some of our terrain, uh, I mean, you have to dismount.
We, in fact, I put a post out today, uh, a reel on Instagram and, um, the leader, you see the, the two, the one of the two, um, they're actually dismounted and running their bikes up of a hill, um, in that, that little reel. And so, uh, yeah, for them to maintain a 20 mile an hour. Um, I'd say the average is probably a 15, 14 to 15, uh, pace, uh, and so, and then we have a, a nine hour, uh, cap on the, the 200 K.
[00:37:58]Craig Dalton (host): Gotcha. And are, are people able to ride together in some sections and, you know, ride in a Peloton or does the terrain not allow for that?
[00:38:04]Eric Sutter: Yeah. Yeah. In most sections they can. Um, I do caution them because the roads there are sandy, um, that, um, You know, you can hit a sandy spot and then not be going as fast as you were a second ago.
And if you're too close, then that can cause some issues with, with some riders. But, um, but by and large, it's, uh, like I said, it's, it's, it's, it's usually a hard packed, uh, sandy, not, not like beach sand the whole, whole way.
[00:38:31]Craig Dalton (host): Got it. And then at the completion of the event, what kind of experience do the, uh, participants get to enjoy?
[00:38:37]Eric Sutter: Yeah, so we have live music. We've had live music every year. Um, we've got, uh, Aaron Travis Band is a local, uh, he calls it ag rock. So kind of red dirt, but, uh, he's, he's actually a farmer. Um, he lives in a town, the same town that, uh, Martina McBride is from. Uh, and sharing Kansas. And so, um, yeah, he's, he's a great, uh, great asset to have.
And he, he gets, uh, several of his friends to come and play. And so they have, um, you know, we usually have live music from, uh, right around noon till, uh, six or seven in the evening. And so, uh, so, and it's right on the finish line. So as the riders are coming up, uh, the brick road, uh, they've got a band there playing, cheering them on people, you know, sitting out watching them come across the finish line.
And so, um, they come across the finish line. They get a, a pint glass and a finisher patch for, for finishing. Uh, and then every year we, we change our logo just a little bit. Like we have our, our general logo that we've used from, from year one. Um, and that's kind of our, our standard logo. Uh, but then, uh, we kind of make a tweak every year to, to logo design.
And so like the pint glasses are kind of collector's items because, uh, each year is different. Same, same with the t shirt each year. You've got a different design, uh, on the t shirt. Um, and that's one thing I took from back to the kayaking is, uh, uh, the race had a, a, a decal and every year was a different.
And so, um, so you always wanted to see the different, and you could look at one and they never have the year on them, but you can look at them like, oh, okay, that was a, you know, a 2012 a year or whatever. So, uh, kind of the same, yeah, same way with us. So, yeah, so, yeah, so they come to the finish line, they've got, uh, we give them a free meal as well, uh, some good old Kansas barbecue and, um, and, uh, they pick up all that stuff and, and have a, have a good old time.
[00:40:29]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, sounds amazing. So, I mean, I love how you've described the terrain and the challenges the riders are going to undertake and the different formats you have remind us again the date of the event. When's registration opening up and what's my final question? I can't even remember any, Oh, how, how do people can find you?
[00:40:48]Eric Sutter: Yeah. So, uh, so, so registration actually opens up on Saturday. Uh, Saturday is the 25th, uh, for, uh, those that, uh, may be listening to this later of, of November. So, uh, 25th, November at nine central. Um, and we have kind of a, a neat thing where it's a race before the race. So, um. We, uh, we kind of want to have a little competition to see who can be the fastest to register.
And if you are the fastest, the fastest male and female that register for the 200k, We actually refund your registration fees, so you get to ride for free. So, uh, I love that. It's, it's kind of neat. Uh, one, it was kind of interesting. One year we had, had a gentleman that, uh, I think for like two years in a row, he was like the number two guy.
It was just like, I felt so bad for him. Like, dude, you are so close every year. He just could not crack the, uh, Crack the, the win on that one, but, uh, yeah, so you don't have to be fast on the bike. You just gotta be fast on the keyboard and, uh, you'll get your registration fee, uh, fee comped. I'd love that.
I'd love
[00:41:50]Craig Dalton (host): that. I'd love to see others figure out how to do that in their registration process.
[00:41:54]Eric Sutter: Oh yeah. It's, it's, it's fun. So yeah. So this Saturday, November 25th at nine, uh, nine central, nine a. m. central is our open registration. And then the race itself is April 27th is that Saturday. So if you're doing the tour, of course, that'd be the 26th and 27th, but.
[00:42:11]Craig Dalton (host): Okay. Amazing, Eric. Well, thank you for all the information. This conversation was a long time coming, but it was well worth it. The event sounds amazing. I love your story and, uh, I wish you all the best of luck this
[00:42:23]Eric Sutter: year. Thanks so much. And yeah, yeah. You can check us out, uh, openrangegravel. com. And that's kind of our handle as well for, uh, Instagram and Facebook is at Open Range Gravel.
So perfect. I appreciate you taking the time and, uh, let me kind of tell the story. Of course.
[00:42:39]Craig Dalton: That's going to do it for this week's edition of the gravel ride podcast. Big, thanks to Eric for coming on and telling us all about his journey to creating the open range gravel event. I hope you go check it out. He's got some great videos on his website, which will be linked to. In the show notes.
Big, thanks to our friends at hammerhead and the hammerhead crew.
To remember that promo code for a free heart rate monitor strap is the gravel ride. If you'd like to support the show, please visit buy me a coffee.com/the gravel ride or ratings and reviews are hugely appreciated. For those of you who are celebrating Thanksgiving this week. I wish you a great holiday. And here's the finding some dirt onto your wheels.
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This week on the pod we welcome Mark O'Leary, founder of Dust Bowl 100 event in Indiana. Learn the backstory and inspiration of the Dust Bowl 100 - a mix of historic landscapes and a balance of festivity and welcoming avenue for fresh gravel riders. Participants are welcomed with a fast and dynamic race course followed by delicious food, live music, and bike aid stations. Expanding rapidly, Dust Bowl 100 aims for nationwide participation with registrations opening January 1st.
Website: https://www.dustbowl100.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dustbowl100 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dustbowl100 Episode Sponsor: Dynamic Cyclist (code: TheGravelRide for 15% off)Support the Podcast
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Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos:
[00:00:00]Craig Dalton: Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport
I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist.
[00:00:28]Craig Dalton (host): This week on the podcast. We welcome Marco Leary from the dust bowl. 100 in the Indiana. Got a funny story. One of my oldest cycling buddies, John Grantland. Texted me and asked me if I had ever heard of the Dustbowl 100. At event he'd done before that he had a blast at, I said, no, I hadn't heard of it.
As I started digging in, I started to understand this is a really great event in Indiana. So I was super stoked to get mark on board to talk about the event. Super nice guy looks like he creates a really fun event with, um, dynamic and fundraising. So all those great to hear about new gravel and new parts of the country. So I hope you enjoy this episode.
Before we jump in, I did want to apologize for the month long break, unexpected break that I took in publishing. It was kind of a combination of things in my life that ended up. Making the podcast difficult to schedule and produce. I got COVID. I had whatever the podcasting equivalent of writer's block is and just couldn't get off the ball and fell behind.
And it started to feel like I just couldn't handle everything. That was going in on, in my life. So rather than force it, I decided to kind of forgive myself a little bit, take a step back, take a little bit of time off, but I'm excited to get back in the swing of things. I'm not quite out of the woods in terms of scheduling, but as always, I've got a great backlog of guests that I'm trying to reach out to and find time with.
So, anyway, thanks for bearing with me. Look forward to getting back into the swing of things as always, we've got a vast back catalog. Of content you can tap into. If you ever miss my voice. I did need to thank this week. Sponsor, dynamic cyclist. This is always the time of year when I start seriously thinking about stretch. When I start seriously thinking about stretching and strengthening, I guess it's kind of natural. Given the ebb and flow of anybody's cycling season. But every year I say, this is the year I got a buckle down. And honestly it wasn't until I connected with the team at dynamic cyclist. And started doing their 15 minute or so videos on stretching that are focused on the needs of cyclists. That I kinda really crack the code and I need to recommit again this year because I do see a lot of benefit.
Certainly if you're riding hard and riding technical terrain, it's just critical to remain limber and it gives your muscles a little bit of break and ease. Something, I think we could all use. So dynamic cyclists has a vast library of content. They've got injury, specific content that you can tap into.
So if you've got a knee problem or back problem, they've got specific routines that can help support. Getting limber in those areas that are going to support say your low back, which is my consistent problem. Anyway, check them [email protected]. You can get 15% off a monthly or annual membership. Using the code that gravel ride or by checking the link in the show notes. They also have a free one week trial.
So now's the time to give dynamic cyclist a try. Where that business behind us. Let's jump right into my conversation with mark and the Dustbowl 100.
Mark,
[00:03:53]Craig Dalton (host): welcome to the show.
[00:03:54]Mark O'Leary: You're glad to be here, Craig. It's a, it's exciting. I've been a listener to the podcast for a long time and I'm excited to be here to tonight to talk about the dust bowl.
[00:04:04]Craig Dalton (host): I love it. And as a introduction to how I discovered the dust bowl, 100, I got a, uh, I got a text message from my long term cycling friend, a guy I used to work in a bike shop with when we were both in college, and he's like, Hey Craig, are you familiar with the Dust Bowl 100?
I should probably read it to you. Have you considered interviewing Marco Leary, the founder of the Dust Bowl 100? That race has hit a tipping point where it will be one of the premier events in the country. If you're interested, I'll make the connection. And I was like, that's, that's awesome.
[00:04:36]Mark O'Leary: Let's do it.
That's really cool. Uh, he sent me a similar message and said, you know, have you heard of the gravel ride podcast? And, uh, I was like, absolutely. I listen to it every week. And he's like, well, I've got a connection there. I'll see if I can get you on. So I was, I was pretty pumped to hear that. Nice.
[00:04:54]Craig Dalton (host): Let's start off as we always do.
Mark, where'd you grow up and how did you discover cycling as a child? And then later, how did you discover it as a sport to participate in? Yeah.
[00:05:05]Mark O'Leary: Okay. Um, I'm a lifelong Hoosier, born and raised in Indiana, um, grew up in Terre Haute, so the west side of the state, um, probably best known as a place where Larry Bird, um, went to college at Indiana State.
Um, growing up, um, I've got three brothers, we were all into the, the stick and ball sports, so basketball and football were the big ones to play, um, and I was lucky enough to play basketball, uh, all the way through college. So, um, you know, the bike, um, growing up was, was, you know, something I did for fun. Um, I'd like to ride to my friend's house.
Um, I love the exploration aspect of riding the bike, um, just going to find, um, you know, trails in the parks next to our, our neighborhood or, uh, you know, when I got to middle school, riding downtown to get a haircut in high school over the summer, I'd ride my bike into basketball practice, uh, here and there, but the bike was, was never really, uh, cycling was never really a sport that I would consider at that point.
It was just more a means to get around and, uh, and, and just, you know, have some fun with friends basically. Um, and then as I said, I played basketball through college, um, with the Hanover college down in Southern Indiana, um, a little division three school on the, on the Ohio river. Um, and at that point, you know, the bike was, I could get to class, um, get across campus a little quicker by hopping on the bike.
And, and that was the extent of my riding a bike, uh, in, in college. Yeah,
[00:06:34]Craig Dalton (host): I can't imagine as being someone in indiana showing promise in the sport of basketball that anybody was encouraging you to do anything but basketball,
[00:06:42]Mark O'Leary: right? That's, that is very true. I mean, indiana is basketball is the sport of indiana.
So, um, that was the focus of, you know, I put all my focus into that and yeah, I didn't have, you know, I played football a little bit growing up. And by the time I got to high school, it was fully focused on basketball. So not much time for any other sports or activities. Nice.
[00:07:02]Craig Dalton (host): So you, you played, continued playing basketball at the college level.
Once you graduated, were you thinking about continuing to play basketball or was it, uh, you know, sort of the end of your career of basketball?
[00:07:13]Mark O'Leary: As far as a, you know, competitive being on part of a team, that was the end of my career. Um, But, you know, I played in some men's leagues, some rec leagues after college, um, just try to keep the competitive juices flowing.
Um, but, you know, after a year or two, the knees started to hurt a little bit more than they, um, than they had before. Uh, you know, I couldn't jump as high, I couldn't shoot as well as I, as I did in college. It's kind of one of those things like, well, I need to find something else to do. I, you know, I'm still really competitive, but my competitive.
Uh, it wasn't getting scratched with how, how my transition of the basketball game was going. So I needed to look for something else. I tried doing some running, but again, the knees didn't enjoy that. So I'm really kind of just fell into the, um, fell into the bike. Um, are you in Indianapolis at that point?
Yeah. Yep. So I, after college moved up to the Indianapolis area, I live in Plainfield, so it's a, it's on the west side. It's a west side suburb of Indianapolis, um, right by the airport. And we have a fantastic trail network, uh, rails to trails network here in town. Every single neighborhood is connected by a trail.
We have tons of parks that are all connected with the trails and, um, really just got a bike at Walmart to go ride the trails and kind of explore town since, since we were newer to town at that point. And uh, did that for, you know, a month and it was like, you know what, I want to go venture out and get out on some of the county roads around here and see what else is out there.
Things I don't see in a car on a day to day basis. You know, I think my first, what I call a long ride was probably 10 miles. I got, you know, five miles at a time and I thought I'd, you know, done a century ride. And I was, I was like, this is awesome. I can't believe all these things I'm seeing that I don't see on a day to day basis.
And really from there, uh, I got bit by the bug quick and, um, you know, jumped right into, found some group rides and jumped into, you know, trying to ride faster than doing some training to keep up with the past group. And then jumped into the, you know, racing with, with crits and, um, and some cyclocross, you know, a year or two into writing.
So.
[00:09:20]Craig Dalton (host): Gotcha. Yeah. I was going to ask you in the Indianapolis scene as, as you got interested in writing. What was the easiest genre of cycling to get into? Was there a big road scene, a crit scene? What kind of was the easiest thing to kind of get that performance side of the sport? Uh, getting excited about it.
[00:09:40]Mark O'Leary: So I started around 2011 is when I got into cycling. Um, so at that point. Um, there were still a lot of criteriums and a couple of road races in the Indianapolis area. Um, I tell my friends now, like, you know, they met, they, if they started writing recently, like they missed out on a great crit scene back then.
Um, you could, you could raise a crit almost every weekend from April through, um, July or August within, you know, an hour, maybe two hours of Indianapolis. And great. So I, that, that helped me get into the sport again, but that competitive itch, um, And so that was great at that time. We also had a time trial series, um, that took place, um, just one town over from where I live.
And, um, that was a five, I think, a five race series on Sunday mornings, um, throughout the summer. So that was another way just to get a quick, easy race in and get that competitive juice flowing. And, um, so I'd say time trials and criteriums were what, you know, initially got me into the competitive side of the sport.
[00:10:39]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. There's something to be said for both of those being like an hour long or less events because you can kind of leave your family, go race a race and be home before they're even done with brunch versus, you know, these gravel events we love now you've got to commit to an entire day or you've got to travel.
It's a lot more of a production than a crit or a time trial
[00:11:02]Mark O'Leary: would be. Yeah, that's exactly right. I love the time trial because it was a Sunday morning at like 7am so I could go there, race, come home, shower, get to church with the family, you know, by 9. 30 in the morning and it was, it was great. So, um, there is something to be said for those short and local races for sure.
[00:11:21]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, so, um, again, just naivete around Indianapolis and the riding around there. When did you start to discover gravel cycling and, and, and the off road riding possible around Indianapolis?
[00:11:35]Mark O'Leary: Yeah. Um, I would say probably 2014, 2015, I was pretty early into riding gravel, kind of the riding gravel scene around here.
Um, you know, at that point, um, I guess. I've always been interested in the outdoors and getting outside, seeing nature and kind of exploring, which I mentioned before. And so finding gravel was my way to kind of do that on the bike. And we've got a couple, uh, rails to trails in the neighboring county, Putnam County, which the Dust Bowl takes place in.
Um, there's a rail trail system that's crushed limestone. And so that was my first kind of foray into getting into gravel and just rode that trail a couple of times and got out in the country. Um, over, over the course of time, um, kind of veered off, it would cross some gravel roads. I'd turn down that gravel road and see where it took me.
And, um, at that time, you know, there wasn't a big gravel riding or racing scene in Indiana or really anywhere. Um, but there was a bike shop, um, on the Northwest side of Indianapolis that put on a, a week or a monthly gravel ride. They, they call it the most, most inconvenient. Um, weeknight or weeknight ride because it was, you know, 30 or 40 minutes outside of town.
Um, it was at a park, but it was my, it was my first group ride gravel experience. And that was, uh, again, a monthly ride that they put on. Um, so that, that was kind of my first step into writing gravel as a group. And then there were a couple of events, a couple of events, um, that gravel events that, uh, you know, were taking place then.
Um, I think the, the longest gravel. Longest running gravel event in Indiana, um, is called the Gravel Grovel, and it takes place the weekend after, uh, Thanksgiving every year. So, um, I think that's been going on since 2011, maybe. Um, so, I think 2016, 2017, I participated in that my first time, um, and that takes place in the Hoosier National Forest.
So you're out in the middle of nowhere, out in the woods and the hills, um, and then there was a race on the north side of Indianapolis called the Harvest 50, and I believe that started in 2015, it's still going today, um, and that was kind of the first, uh, or the other gravel race that, that, you know, was happening around here.
Um, I've participated in every Harvest 50 since it started. Um, and I've been, you know, participating in the Gravel Grovel almost every year as well. So those, those are the two events that got me into it.
[00:14:05]Craig Dalton (host): And yet had you traveled out of state to participate in any events?
[00:14:10]Mark O'Leary: Uh, no, with, with the young family, um, typically try to do all of my events in the state.
Um, that said, you know, recently. Um, I, I went out to Unbound this year, um, participated, did the 200 mile race there. Um, went to Barrier Bay in Michigan this year. Um, went out to Mid South last year, have done some races in, in Illinois, but. Um, outside of those, most of my writing and racing is in Indiana, just, just to keep it close for the family and, you know, not have to spend too much time on the road.
[00:14:40]Craig Dalton (host): So, yeah, with a couple of those great Indiana events already being on the calendar, what inspired you to create your own?
[00:14:49]Mark O'Leary: Um, I, I think a couple of things is one is just, I was appreciative of those promoters and those events that they'd put on and felt like. You know, putting on my own event was another way to get back to that cycling community and do something that those events have been doing for a while and just give people another option to, um, you know, participate and get that, get out there and explore, see new roads that they wouldn't typically see.
Um, and then going back to, you know, I mentioned earlier that there was a great print scene back in 2012, 2013, but over the years it has died out and there's very few events now on the roadside. Yeah, in Indiana. So, um, I also wanted to do something else to get another event on the calendar that, you know, everybody in Indiana can focus on and participate in and kind of create a big, um, you know, at least regional, if not national level of it, um, here in the state of Indiana.
So that was. Kind of the the other reason behind
[00:15:50]Craig Dalton (host): it and when you when you jumped into planning the first event Had you had any experience planning events like this or exposure to some of the other race? Organizers to understand what you were getting into. Yeah,
[00:16:02]Mark O'Leary: just yes. Yes, and no so in college I hope Organize a 5k run for the first time on Hanover's campus.
So I had some event, you know, management experience there. My first job out of college, um, was working for an event management company or event, um, merchandise company. Where we would go to events and set up pro shops that, you know, racing events, NFL stadiums, those types of things. So. Um, kind of had the, the event background from, from that career as well.
Um, and then, uh, I've been the president of my cycling club here in, in, in Plainfield for a number of years. And as part of that, I would always just put on, you know, grassroots, um, fun weekend events where we'd go, you know, go out for some Strava segments, um, here and there, or we'd go do a race around a park or different things and just kind of had a little bit of experience with that.
Um, and then I'd also. You know, as I got into thinking about doing an event, uh, an actual, you know, full scale event, um, I volunteered with a couple of organizations. Um, that put on like charity rides, uh, in the, in the area as well. Just got on there, you know, planning committee. So I can see how those events ran, how those, how, how they did, um, how they did those events and what went into it.
So that gave me a good idea of getting into it. Like here's a checklist of things I need to do. To make it a successful event,
[00:17:26]Craig Dalton (host): so yeah, interesting, you know, you answered my question, which was, you know, a lot of times event organizers will kind of create a group ride and then it will expand, then it will expand and then it will become an event, but you had done that.
It sounds like in a lot of different capacities and taking the time to learn from other organizers. So it sounds like, and don't let me put words in your mouth, but when you decided to go for the Dust Bowl 100. It was going to be a thing, you know, you were going to have to invest capital in it. You were going to have to get sponsors.
You were going to have to do a lot more. How did you approach kind of getting the capital together to put a race of this size
[00:18:01]Mark O'Leary: together? So um, I think the, maybe the first thing is take a step back is I decided I think it's February of 2020. Um, to put on the dust bowl, I was out riding that day, um, out on some of the roads that we use on the course.
And I was like, you know what, I need to just take the step and put on an event and show, you know, everybody these roads, they're worth showing off. Um, and then obviously, you know, a month later COVID hit and, um, that plan to have an event in July of, of, uh, 2020 that year didn't, didn't transpire. Um, but that said.
When July of 2020 rolled around, we still had, uh, our restrictions have been lifted a little bit here. Um, so I basically did a, uh, a test run of the Dust Bowl that year with about 30, I think we had 34 participants, mainly teammates and friends, um, put a, a small event out on Facebook and, and had a few other people from the area join, actually had a couple of people from Illinois come over and participate.
Um, but that was a real blessing in disguise because Um, I was able to do a test run of the event, get great feedback from the participants is, you know, is the course, how do, how do you like the course, what could be done better, um, just get a feel for how to manage an event. And, uh, and to do that with 34 people was really helpful.
Um, and then that gave me, you know, 18 months to, to plan actually for the first event in 2021, the first official event. Okay. And so, you know, going back to the capital question, um, it was, I guess, just a risk. It was, you know, Spending a few thousand dollars of my own money to, you know, set up an LLC to run the event under get the initial permits and, you know, just crossing my fingers that I could get a hundred people to sign up to cover those, you know, to get those fees, uh, those fees back.
Right. And, uh, it was able to do that. And then as the time went on, you brought some sponsors on board and all of that.
[00:20:03]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. Were you, were you able to get sponsors in that first year?
[00:20:07]Mark O'Leary: Yeah. Um, I did, I did have a handful of sponsors. I with go contracting. Um, it's a, uh. Concrete company here in Indiana, but they're, they're nationwide.
Um, they have a cycling team and I knew their, their president really well. Um, I was, I was blessed to have them come on board as a title sponsor for the, those first two years and provide some capital that we really needed to get the event going and to grow it and to do some of the things that I wanted to do, but couldn't do with just participant entry fees.
Um, and then had a few other sponsors come on as well as, um, you know, a few monetary sponsors and then just product sponsors or giveaways or different things. Like,
[00:20:46]Craig Dalton (host): yeah, that was one of the cool things in visiting the dustbowl 100. com website, scrolling down to the sponsors. It's not just simply cycling industry sponsors.
You've clearly like tapped into the local community and different other types of sponsors, which I just think is cool to see because you, you don't always see that in events.
[00:21:08]Mark O'Leary: That's one of those things where I think, you know, a lot of people rely on, and the first instinct is to go to a bike shop or go to somebody in the industry to sponsor the event.
But I think if you can draw on some of those outside supporters as well, um, not only does that, you know, benefit the event, but, um, it gets that sponsor's name out there. And then it also just, you know, when, when a spot, when a, when a non endemic sponsor is involved in the event that just, you know, grows the, uh, The interest and the awareness of the event with, you know, the employees of that company, others in the community and stuff as well.
So really try to, you know, approach it both ways and make the connections in the bike industry, but also, you know, support the local businesses as well. Yeah.
[00:21:55]Craig Dalton (host): Can you paint a picture of what the course of the Dust Bowl 100 or courses looks like? What type of riding is there? You know, it sounds like at this point you've experienced a number of the kind of marquee events around the Midwest and experienced a bunch of different types of gravel.
So maybe just give perspective on what are the key features of the ride? How much elevation are we talking? The distances and how would one sort of prepare themselves and their equipment? To come to the dust bowl.
[00:22:24]Mark O'Leary: Yeah. So Indiana, um, our gravel here, it's crushed limestone. Indiana is one of the limestone capitals of the country.
Um, our limestone, you know, goes, goes into a lot of the monuments in Washington, DC. And, um, so a lot of our roads, they're, they're that crushed limestone, white limestone. Um, our event is aptly named the dust bowl 100, because there is a dust cloud that follows the riders and vehicles on course, um, with that white, that white powder from the, from the gravel.
Um, You know, Indiana, uh, most people are going to think it's completely pancake flat, um, in, in cornfields and bean fields and that's it. Um, but I think you'll discover on the Dust Bowl route, we do, we have a good variety of what you will see in Indiana. So there, there are a lot of cornfields and bean fields.
It is fairly flat. So we've got three routes, um, 100 miles, 80 miles and 44 miles. And for the a hundred mile route, you'll hit, um, you'll get about 3, 500 feet of climbing, so, um, not much over the course of that, but, but the running joke is, is that we stack all 3, 500 feet in the last like 20 miles of the event, so, um, There's not much there are some flat stretches, but the event it's kind of all rolling There's I mean nothing more than you know, a hundred foot climb, maybe a 200 foot climb But it rolls enough by the end of the day All those little punchy times are going to add up and get to you.
So But yeah, the course goes through, you know wide open farm fields that you would expect to see in Indiana But then we go down to some creek valleys Um, that are heavily wooded. We go through some nature preserves that are, um, you know, it gets pretty dark in there in the middle of summer with the tree cover.
Um, we've got some climbs coming up out of the creek beds. Um, you know, the route, the hundred mile routes about 60 percent gravel. So, um, you've got that white limestone, um, for that part of it. And then the rest of the roads are primarily chip and seal. So, um, you know, those come at welcome times in the course though.
Um, you know. A few people say, you know, I wish you had a little bit more gravel, but there's most people are saying, you know, the intermix chip and sealer pavement. Uh, is a really welcome relief from the, that white limestone that you're getting, getting pressed on all the rest of the race. So it's, it's nice to get, you know, a mile stretch where you're, you can stretch the legs, sit up a little bit and, uh, and then hit the gravel again shortly after that.
Yeah.
[00:24:49]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. One other thing I love about the descriptions on, on the website is you, you say the number of historic bridges you're going to cross in each length
[00:24:59]Mark O'Leary: course. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. I think the exploration and just the history of everything is, again, something that really appeals to me. And I think the bridges do set the event apart, though.
We've got, um, the 100 mile course, it's two covered bridges, um, which are, uh, you know, kind of a focal point of historic Indiana is the covered bridges. Um, and those are always a key thing that the participants like. And then, Um, and then we've got, uh, a number of iron bridges, old metal bridges, um, that we cross as well.
Um, and those, those are kind of, kind of cool just to see that, you know, the, the wooden slats that go across them and then the, the rusted out beams go across. And, uh, we've had some, some bridges in the past, um, that are closed down to traffic that we've, um, Been able to go across and, uh, and those are really cool too.
Cause it's, again, it's not something you could drive in a car every day, um, to get to go across these bridges. So I don't know, the, the bridges are something that, that I enjoy, you know, finding on, on a route, we actually incorporated it into our car logo. It's one of the. You know, the beams from the, uh, uh, from the bridges.
[00:26:07]Craig Dalton (host): So nice. And then the other thing you mentioned are the off road adventure sections. What's, what's the translation of
[00:26:14]Mark O'Leary: that? Yeah. So, uh, we have two, two sections that we call the off road adventure section. So one of them, um, is about a mile long section. It goes through some private property. Um, it's an old county road that the county no longer maintains.
So it kind of got reverted back to, uh, to the landowners there. And, um, you know, when you get onto, onto the road, you're going, you're, you go onto the road, it's, it's, uh, some broken pavement and then it just gets into some gravel and then you get to the end of it and it looks like it's a dead end, um, it turns to grass, there's some trees overhanging, you can't really see any, you can't see down the trail any, uh, but then the, the science is, you know, go straight here.
And you go around a little corner and it opens up into a dirt trail through the woods. Um, kind of a washed out roaded G2 track section. Um, again, not really long, but it's, it's kind of something completely different from the rest of the course that, um, everybody seems to enjoy. It adds a little technicality to it.
Um, it'd be fun to add more sections of that, but we just, there's really none that we have the ability to add. Um, and then the, the second adventure section. Um, is, is that the finish? So, um, the only way to get, so the event takes place, um, at eminent schools, um, a high school in the town of eminence. And the only way to get to the school property is, uh, is off of a, uh, is off of a highway or a county highway.
And so we don't want to route people back through there, um, at the finish when, you know, they're, they're either exhausted and, or they're racing to the finish and we don't want to blow a stop sign, you know, with the traffic coming through there and stuff. So. Um, the local fire department owns, um, a big area that butts up to the school off one of the county roads.
Um, and they have a tractor pull track. Um, they have a large grass area. There's a bridge that crosses a creek that connects to the school. So we basically build a cyclocross course, um, in the last half mile of the event where we wind around on some gravel. We go down the dirt tractor pull track, um, go through the grass, cross a bridge, go around the cross country course of the school, and then finish.
They're at the school. So, um, it's just that it's a different finish that I don't think you see at a lot of events. That's a lot
[00:28:33]Craig Dalton (host): of fun. When, um, do you describe the event to riders as a ride or a race? What's, what's sort of the tenor, what are you going for?
[00:28:45]Mark O'Leary: That's something I always try to balance because yes, I want it to be a race with high caliber racers, um, a fast race.
But at the same time, I also want to be completely welcoming to somebody that's brand new to gravel and never, you know, either never participated in a gravel event, never participated in an event at all. Um, so kind of try to balance that and try to share equal parts of, you know, this is a ride. It's also a race.
Um, and, uh, I think we've done a pretty good job of that. I think we get a lot of feedback that our course is really welcoming to anybody. You can race it as fast as you want to race it. Um, the winning time this year was four hours and 28 minutes. So, you know, 23 miles an hour fast. Those guys were, were, you know, smashed at the end and they put all they could into it.
Um, but it's also welcoming enough that anybody can go out as a first gravel ride, as a first event and feel comfortable in knowing that they can finish that event. Um, our 44 mile course is really popular with, um, with new riders. Um, it's a great way to get into gravel riding or racing and, um, at a. At a distance that, you know, really most people can, can, uh, it's a pretty, uh, friendly course for that.
[00:30:01]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. In some ways I'm jealous in, in where I live in Marin County. So difficult to invite new riders into the fold simply because we're always going up and down. You know, we have to do an hour long loop around here. You're probably climbing a thousand feet or 800 feet and that's just not appealing. I think to a lot of new athletes.
So the idea of just being able to invite a newer athlete to, to go on an undulating ride Over 44 miles just sounds ideal to bring new people into the sport.
[00:30:35]Mark O'Leary: Yeah, it's a, um, you know, one thing that we focused on this year is to increase our women and junior participants, um, kind of with that same idea, you know, make it a welcoming event for people who are in the sport.
In 2022 we had 100 women sign up. So we made a goal this year to get 200 women. Um, we got to 195 So we were really close close. Um, and we we more than doubled our junior participants as well So I think it's it's the same thing, you know, kind of the word of mouth and then just promoting that You know, it's it's a it's an event that Um, the course could be as challenging as you want to make it.
Yeah. Anybody can complete it. Um, and you can just ride faster if you want to make it harder. So, uh, we are, we are lucky with that. I think it's what's helped the event grow, uh, pretty quickly is, is that reason as well.
[00:31:21]Craig Dalton (host): When you think about the men and women who are at the pointy end of the race, the, the Does the terrain sort of suggest that it, it sticks together in kind of a group until those adventure sections start to break it up a little
[00:31:33]Mark O'Leary: bit?
Yep. Yeah, that's exactly right. The, so the adventure sections and the um, uh, a couple of the creek climbs after the cover bridges. So, um, typically the front pack will stay together until about mile 50. So right about the mid midway point, um, there's a pretty good sized group, and then they hit a downhill section.
Into the first covered bridge and then it's a steep climb out of that for about a half a mile And that's where the the winning break has gone every single year so far at least the winning selection where You know, it's either two to two to six riders get away at that point and stay away for the rest of time.
So um, you know, I I thought Would like to find a way to split that front group up earlier in the event. Um, make it not quite as as big Um, but there's really limited options and how you can do that with not many significant hills around and yeah, um, and not many other other ways to do that. But, um, I think it makes for a fun and fast event of being able to have a pretty good group.
Um, all the way through that first half of the event and then it becomes, you know, uh, a war of attrition at that point.
[00:32:40]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. I think there's something interesting about perennial events that sort of have that, that unique moment that the break always goes in this one spot. So like as an aspiring. Athlete, you can, you can kind of prepare for it and you can test your metal and you know where it's going down and may the strongest man or woman
win.
[00:33:00]Mark O'Leary: Yep. That's exactly right. Um, yeah, I think, I think all of that front group knows that when they get to that, that bridge, they better be towards the front to cross it and be ready to sprint up it as fast as they can. And, um, you'll see some guys that. Know that and then overcook the turn at the bottom going into the bridge because they're, you know, trying to you know just go all out and Misjudge it a little bit I
[00:33:23]Craig Dalton (host): was I was watching a couple of your videos and I saw a few people drift off to the side and either have to Kick a leg out or saw one guy kind of in the woods over there So I get it the corners looked a little slick with the limestone
[00:33:36]Mark O'Leary: gravel Yeah, we warned them multiple times, the event communications and, you know, right before the race.
Hey, you're going to hit a downhill at mile 50 and mile 52, just be careful. But, you know, you get in the, the, um. The nature of just racing and there's going to be people that are going to overcook it no matter what.
[00:33:54]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, you bet. Hey, and then at the, at the end of the event, what kind of experience should riders have in their mind?
[00:34:01]Mark O'Leary: Yeah. So that's, that's something we've, we've tried to grow and improve upon each year since we started. Um, so, uh, we've always offered a full meal afterwards. We have a catered barbecue. Um, so you get a barbecue sandwich, a sides and chips, a drink. Um, we also have some, some vegan and vegetarian options, um, and then, you know, the, the barbecues, you get an option of pork or, uh, or chicken, so, uh, quite a few meal options afterwards.
Um, and then one of our, the favorites of everybody, um, you know, with the event taking place in Indiana in July, it's always, you know, warm, um, 80 to 80 to 90 degrees. And we have a, uh, a snow cone truck that shows up. And, uh, all the participants get a free snow cone, uh, or shave ice after the race. Um, so that, that's always a hit.
Um, the last couple of years we've introduced live music afterwards, just trying to, you know, liven up the mood and get people to stick around and watch other people finish. So we've had. Um, a lot of local bands come and play that, uh, that, that play some great music. Um, we've got a, so we've got a stage with them set up, um, went with a pretty big stage this year and did our awards from that as well.
Um, and then, you know, one thing we're continually continually trying to grow is like our vendor expo area. So, um, whether it's sponsors or other, uh, businesses that want to come out and set up, uh, you know, a tent and give participants an area to come. Kind of walk around mingle with the vendors after they get done racing as well.
Again, trying to just have have that post race atmosphere There and encourage people to stick around and cheer for their friends We do a bike wash. Silica sponsored a bike wash station this year. It's free to all the participants Um, the school offers, uh, showers in their locker rooms for 5. And those, those funds go right back to the school, to their athletic department.
So, um, those are really popular, popular as well, just to get cleaned up after that, get that dust off you after the race. Um, so lots of different things, do some giveaways throughout the day. Um, And just really try to make it a fun atmosphere. There's a, there's a playground right there in the vicinity. So it's, it's fun to see, um, you know, families come out as their, as their, you know, spouses or, um, siblings finish the event.
You've got some families congregating their kids. My kids love to come out and just run around during the day. Um, it's a, it's a pretty fun atmosphere.
[00:36:27]Craig Dalton (host): Nice. And, and let's just talk finally just about the size of the event, how has it grown in participation and are you seeking to continue to grow it? Or do you have caps on how many athletes you can reasonably support?
[00:36:40]Mark O'Leary: Yeah. So, um, like I mentioned, the, the first test run year zero that we call it, um, we had 34 participants, um, 2021, we set a cap initially at 250 participants. That was just because of COVID restrictions. Um, and. Uh, was really surprised when we hit that 250 participant, uh, limit just about a month in after registration.
So, uh, honestly, we lucked out at that point, you know, there had been no events for a year, year and a half. Everybody was looking for something to do. And we just happened to open registration at a time when there were very few events on the calendar. So I think we got people to, to sign up because of that.
Um, the county let us in. Ended up letting us have 400 participants in 2021. So, uh, year, year one was 400 participants, um, went to 600 in 2022 and then went to 800 in 2023. Um, and I've sold out every year. Um, a couple, you know, You may ask, you know, why don't you just open up registration completely? Uh, and there's kind of two reasons for that is, is one is my goal is to make it the best participant experience that I can.
And I don't want to just, you know, bring in a thousand or 2000 people and, and, you know, let them loose and not know how it's going to work. So I think. Capping registration, increasing it by 200 or so participants each year has allowed us to grow, manage to grow, make sure we're providing that experience, um, and make improvements each year to be able to bring more people on.
Um, and then the, the second thing is, is again, the event takes place in Eminence, Indiana. Um, it's a town of, uh, less than a hundred people. There, there is not a stoplight in town. There's one stop sign in town. Uh, there's a gas station, two churches, a fire department. Um, in a bank, and that's what the town is, is basically made up of along with a few houses.
So it is, it is a small town. We love the town. Um, they're fully supportive of it, but you know, even after the first year where you're basically maxing out all of the, uh, the paid parking spots in town, um, the, the, again, the organization has been awesome allowing us to use all their, all their space that we can.
Um, the fire department has let us use their grounds and we, we have a lot of grass parking there. So. Uh, it's kind of one of those things too, though. We just want to make sure that we don't, that we can fit in the town each year by, by, you know, increasing registration incrementally. So 2024, uh, the goal is a thousand riders.
Um, it'd be pretty cool to hit that a thousand participant mark and, um, you know, the town, we, we, we were able to fit 800 in the town pretty easily this year. So I think a thousand is a manageable number. Um, past that, we'll see, we'll see how next year goes and maybe a thousand is what we stick at, or maybe we continue to grow it.
So. That's great.
[00:39:27]Craig Dalton (host): Is there a time, a month of the year that you typically open up registration for the event?
[00:39:32]Mark O'Leary: Yep. So we've, we've always done a registration on January 1st, the 1st of the year. So, um, I know a lot of events do that and it's, it can be hard on participants knowing there's, there's multiple events that they got to sign up for the 1st of the year.
Um, that's what we've done. We plan to do that this year, but we may end up moving that at some point, um, just to get off that 1st date. But yes, for 2024, the plan is, uh, January 1st, that registration will open. Um, and we sold, we sold all 800 spots in 10 days last year. So, um, if anybody's interested in participating, I would say, you know, get on that registration pretty quick, um, to make sure you get into the event.
[00:40:10]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. Well, we'll make sure they have those links and, you know, going back to John's original text message to me, it's clear that the event will continue to grow from everything you've told me. You've got all the elements of a great event. You're putting the riders first. Sounds like a super fun course and a super fun after party.
Amazing kudos for the town high school offering showers. I love that idea. I love the snow cones. So I think you're really onto something, Mark, and I appreciate you coming on and sharing the story with
[00:40:38]Mark O'Leary: us. Thanks. Yeah, thank you. I appreciate the opportunity to do. And, um, you know, we've had, we've had, uh, riders represented from 31 different states so far.
So. Um, I guess I'm going to throw it out there if you're, if you're from the West coast, besides California, if you're from the West coast anywhere, um, if you're from the Dakotas all the way across to Idaho, or if you're from the New England area, um, look us up. We'd love to have you out. We'll guarantee you a spot.
If you, if you're from one of those 19 States that hasn't, uh, you know, hasn't been to the event yet. So we'd love to have representation from all 50 States at some point.
[00:41:14]Craig Dalton (host): I love it. I think that's a great goal. Thanks
[00:41:16]Mark O'Leary: again, Mark. Yes. Thanks, Craig. Appreciate it.
[00:41:19]Craig Dalton (host): That's going to do it for this week's edition of the gravel ride podcast. Big, thanks to mark for telling us the story of the dust bowl. 100 and a big shout out to my friend jumping, John Grantlyn. for sending mark my way. If you're interested in supporting the show, please visit buy me a coffee.com/the gravel ride or ratings and reviews are hugely appreciated.
You'd be surprised at how much it helps others find this content. If you're able to share hopefully a five star review.
And as always here's to finding some dirt onto your wheels
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Welcome to part 2 of Paris Brest Paris with James Gracey. This episode concludes James's intense 1,200-kilometer ride filled with unexpected obstacles and unexpected friendships. Faced with numerous challenges, from illness to malfunctioning electronics, James's determination powers him through, making his journey a testament to sheer grit.
Halfway through, with 600-kilometers still to go, he contemplates quitting but finds encouragement in the unity of fellow riders. Each twist and turn loaded with his physical and mental endurance eventually leads to the finish line. As he crosses it with newfound friends by his side, James's story evolves into not just an adventure, but a celebration of camaraderie and the human spirit. Don't miss out on this extraordinary account of grit and determination that will surely inspire.
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Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos:
[00:00:00]Craig Dalton (host): Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport
I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist.
This week on the podcast, we've got part two of my discussion with James Gracey. And his Perry Brest Paris ride in 2023. If you haven't listened to the episode last week. Press stop or pause. Go back and listen to that episode because we're going to catch up with it halfway through. James is about 600 kilometers into Perry, breast Paris. Uh, 1200 kilometer ride from Paris to the town of Brest in France, back to Paris. Let's jump right in midstream to my conversation with James Gracey.
[00:01:02]James Gracey: So the way out
[00:01:03]Craig Dalton: to breast is your first 600 kilometers. And this is a distance that you've now done pre once previously before. Yeah, I'm a, this is all you're
[00:01:12]James Gracey: ready to go. So
[00:01:14]Craig Dalton: did you, did you sleep at all on the first six? I
[00:01:16]James Gracey: slept, uh, Lodiak is the, is the 400 K point. It's also where the bag drop point was and so unfortunately one of the gentlemen that is Responsible for san francisco randonneurs.
He's he runs the organization Uh, and I think he's affiliated also with rusa He got sick and so he's coming over to do the ride He has gone way out of his way to make sure everybody has what they we took 106 people from san francisco Which is a huge contingent bigger than most And he, his name is Rob Hawks, and he got sick, uh, like to the hospital in the emergency room, sick when he landed.
And so he had, uh, he had some hotel rooms in Lodiak that he was, when he realized he's not going to be able to, to utilize them, it was two days before, and I was sick. And so I was up at two in the morning being sick. And I got. noticed that these hotel rooms were available. So, because I was sick, I was like, done.
I'll take, I'll take them both. They were both in Lodiak the first night and then the second night coming back. And so I did grab all my gear, my drop bag, go to the hotel, took a shower. And uh, lay down for like two hours.
[00:02:39]Craig Dalton: And we, so were you, was it going to work? The math going to work out that you were going to be in the same hotel the next night?
[00:02:45]James Gracey: Yeah. I just left my gear. Oh, that's amazing. Yeah. So it saved me a little bit of time. So I didn't have to go check in to get gear. Yeah. It, it didn't work out quite that way because I was so far behind when I returned to Lodiak. I had to go to the hotel, get my gear packet, no shower. I changed kits. And went, uh, and had to go back and drop the bag because they're leaving.
The bag drop people are leaving. That's how close we are. And that's one of the bigger problems with starting at the end. That when it's at the end, if you start at the beginning and you fall six hours behind, no big deal. There are people that are, you know, twelve or thirteen hours behind you still. But when you start at the end and you get hours behind, you're at the end.
And they are closing down the control station. Um, what was your,
[00:03:34]Craig Dalton: what was your kit set up? Like, it sounds like you brought two,
[00:03:37]James Gracey: two sets of. I had three, I had one for one for each day. And I planned on, I planned on changing them. And, uh, they were just my regular road. Yeah. But just for
[00:03:46]Craig Dalton: like general cleanliness
[00:03:48]James Gracey: and yeah.
You want to get out, you want to get out of that. And, um, like I was in my, my second kit for 40 hours or something like that. Um, coming, coming back. And. Yeah feels pretty gross. So if you're
[00:04:04]Craig Dalton: back in what was the town called? Lodiak you're now i've done 800 800k, so you got 400k to go. Yeah somewhere along the way.
I got a message from you That made it sound like you're done Yeah,
[00:04:19]James Gracey: uh after after uh breast It was kind of evening beautiful sunset and we're leaving breast and i'd been sick. I got sick the friday before the ride Probably because we were just out I just came back from the event and I was not having oysters and lots of seafood and lots of pate and lots of stuff that I just didn't agree with.
Um, or didn't agree with me. And so I was sick Friday, Saturday and Sunday, uh, before the event. And I just can't keep anything. Anything that comes in, that I put in, comes right back out. And, uh, then that continued for the first day. Anybody I'd ride with, I would get in a groove riding with them on the first day, like with two or three people.
And I might ride with him for 45 minutes or an hour, and then I would say, I have to go. Like, I gotta go be sick. I have to go be sick, and I would let him go, which stunk. And it kind of kept getting worse and worse. And I'm trying to eat and drink as much as I can, especially fluids. And, uh, after breast, there's this, there are two secret controls.
You don't know where the control is. And it's to keep people from cheating. My thought was probably like yours is now. Why would you do that? Why would you sign up for this self inflicted thing and cheat? Apparently it happens. I don't know why you would do that. Just do the ride. So in the second control, the secret control, I had a fever and I can't keep anything in me and I'm super dehydrated.
And I even took pictures of like this dehydration that you can see in my face along the way. And I'd probably lost 10 or 12 pounds by that point, is my guess, from the Friday before I went to the Secret Control. I got to that point where I'd tried to think about, you know, a month ago and two months ago, of what are you going to do when you have all the reasons in the world to quit?
Like, are you going to push through and what are you willing to trade off for that, for that, at that time? And I, I knew the answer. But I capitulate. And I, uh, and I, I went to the secret control. Um, when I had a fever, I was like, my wife had just texted me that the kids had COVID. And I was like, no, you're COVID.
That's where the fever is coming from. And, uh, cause we had just seen each other two days before. And I was like, this is, you know, I have children. I have to get back. I do not need to be in a French hospital for a month because I've, you know, Tried to tough it out. And so I went to the control, uh, uh, officials, and I said, I need to withdraw.
And, uh, I was really concerned about the fever. And, and he said, he said, Okay, what's your number? And I gave him my number, and he said, All right, we're going to withdraw you. And I said, what do I do? And he said, you ride to the next control. You ride to the next control. And I was like, can I sleep? I was really tired, can I sleep here?
And he said, no, we're closing. The other problem with being at the very back. He said, we're closing in an hour. You cannot sleep here. And you cannot stay here. Because when we lock the doors, you cannot be here. I was like, well, the next control is Carhay. It's 50 or 60 miles away. I was like, so, if I quit, I still have to ride?
This is at 10 or 11 at night. And he said, yes. , that's what you do. And I said, well, take my name off the , take my name off the list, I rescinded
[00:07:40]Craig Dalton: by
[00:07:40]James Gracey: quit. And I'll decide. I'll decide when I get there. If, uh, if there were, that's still the case. 'cause I am close. And I just couldn't, I couldn't overcome thinking like what I'm risking.
And I just drank and drank and drank. And I think I, I think I didn't have a fever. I think I had, I was hot. Because I didn't have anything to cool me off. Yeah. 'cause I was just super dehydrated and so I kept drinking and drinking and drinking. And then by the time I got there, uh, to Khe, I laid down and I, I think I sent you the video of like all the people laid out all over the place.
[00:08:13]Craig Dalton: Yeah. It's pretty amazing. Just like people just, it's unbelievable falling asleep with their head next to their food on the table, anywhere laying on the ground.
[00:08:23]James Gracey: They had, there were, I didn't see, I saw one person with their feet in the street, like on a highway, like their feet are over the line. And you're like, wow.
As you go and you move your feet. Somebody told me they saw a head over the, head with helmet over the line. Like they just got over as far as they could go and they kind of fell over and went to bed. And so I got to Carhay and I laid down in the cafeteria on the ground with flies everywhere. And for two hours and I woke up and I felt a lot better.
I'd had, I'd had a meal. I'd had a lot of fluid. And I was like, at that point, you know, my plan was I don't have to, don't think about what, how far you have to go. Don't think I've got another 400 miles or whatever it was you think. I just got to get to the next control. And then from that point forward, it's, I just have to get to the next control, whether it's 70 miles or 100 miles.
Right. I just have to, if I can just get there, then I'll make a decision. Yeah. So
[00:09:20]Craig Dalton: you're, as you said before, you started in the tail end group, presumably everybody around you, you're starting to see like the really back of the bus.
[00:09:31]James Gracey: We're seeing in the back of, of even the people that left 12 hours before me are now back with us.
And they're in a terrible, they're in a bad way. Yeah.
[00:09:41]Craig Dalton: So are you, are you riding with some of these guys and girls? I'm riding
[00:09:44]James Gracey: with, I'm riding with some of them. And we had, uh, I mean, it's pretty interesting, ride baits for a while. Uh, that I'll, I'll, I've, I've, I wish them all, I wish them all well. I did get told at one point I had been riding with this one, uh, uh, randoneur that I was, kept riding in front of him.
And he won't get on my wheel. I'm like 40 feet in front of him. 30, 40 feet. I mean, he's getting zero benefit, but he's matching my pace. Like, if you want to get the benefit out of this, you have to ride right behind me. I don't know how it is where you ride, but that's what you have to do, or you may as well just ride by yourself.
Because I'm also having to talk loudly so you can hear it way back there. And so this went on for... 7 or 8 hours. I mean, long time. A long ride. And at one point, I got, and this, we went back and forth and back and forth. We'd kind of split up and then come back together somehow, or I'd see him somewhere else.
And at one point, we're about to drop down into a, into a, um, control. And I see, I see on my Garmin that we're about to descend for a bit. Even if it's 200 or 300 feet, I don't want to come back up it. If there's no food there, because it's closed. Then I got to come back up because there's a
[00:11:01]Craig Dalton: McDonald's right because you're already feeling like you're on the bubble of maybe
[00:11:04]James Gracey: I'm on every control.
I'm like, I don't know how this is going to work out, but it was getting better and better. And I was like, I told the group, I said, I'm going to that McDonald's and haven't had McDonald's in a dozen years. Easy. Because I quit and they realized fast food is bad for you.
[00:11:21]Craig Dalton: They were probably all like Americans.
They all eat McDonald's. McDonald's draw of the Golden arches was
[00:11:26]James Gracey: too much. It was too much. I saw people in there and it's just across the highway. So I went over there and I got a big Mac and fries. Okay. That was amazing. And I sat down and then a Japanese man came in next. I said, you guys go ahead. I'm going to eat.
I need to eat. And I don't want to have to come back up this Hill. To a closed McDonald's. Maybe like I would be devastated. It would be the end. And, uh, then a Japanese man came in and sat, uh, he couldn't figure out the self kiosk. So I walked him through it. And then while he was waiting on his order, I said, Come down and sit next to me.
He didn't speak any English. He spoke a little bit. And, uh, he took his helmet off. And as soon as he sat down, he burst into tears. And I said, I said, It's alright, man. I'm in the same place. I'm just not crying. I don't know if he understood, and he just, the only thing he muttered was, this is so hard. This is so hard.
And I said, I know, but you're going to eat your meal. I just had mine. I'm going to sit here with you, and we're going to start together, and you're going to be fine. And, and that's, and that's what we did. Right? And he was like, I mean he wasn't, he hadn't lost his mind, but he was hurting, and we still have a long way to go.
Uh, and uh, so we, then we left and when I got down to the lane was the next control, the person that I had been riding with, that's behind me said the control is closed and you're screwed. Do you die? He said the control is closed. I said, well, that's, I mean, it's fine. I'm going to finish. My goal was not necessarily to, you know, I would love to make 84 hours, but I'm just going to, I'm going to finish it and I'm not going to finish it if there's no food and I got to come back up this hill.
So I know where I need to be. He said the control's closed and I said, Alright, well I'm gonna go and, and lay down and get some, get, and sleep. I'm gonna sleep for, you know, 30, 40 minutes. And he said, well the control is closed. Why don't you come with me? And I said, No. You're not helping me anyway. And so I, I, uh, he went on and then I went into the control and the control was not closed.
The control was open. And I think he just wanted me to sleep. Drag him around. I don't know. It was the only, it was the only not super awesome experience that I had. Yeah. And so I got my, got my thing stamped and I was like, there were some other people there. I was like, I know I'm tired, but you just heard what I just heard.
There were some San Francisco guys there. And he goes, yeah, he said it was close. It was not close. All right. Maybe he was dreaming. Somebody else later at another, I think even our last control or control before last. was devastated, sitting there, losing his mind because the control is closed. And we're like, it's not closed.
It's right there. It's open. He goes, no, it's not. We're like, it is right there. It's open. He goes, he goes, no, I DNF'd. I'm not finishing because it's closed. And we're like, it's not closed. It's right, it's right where the lights are. He goes, what? And it's, and then he started muttering a bunch of stuff that made zero sense.
Uh, and so I got some sleep. And I woke up, and one thing somebody had told me before you, before we even started any of this was your body, as I don't know if I can sleep in the grass or sleep in the day, and they said your body will put you to sleep, you will go to bed, and your body will put you there, and they were right, like you can go to sleep anywhere, in the grass and rocks, I have a picture of one guy literally sleeping down the stairs, his feet are on, three stairs away from his head, And it cannot, it can't be comfortable.
But he's sleeping. He's just asleep. And so I slept, I woke up, and there were, uh, four, uh, SFR guys that were about to take off. Uh, it was, uh, Ed, Misha, um, Matt, and then one, and then one other San Francisco, Randall Nair guy. And I was like, you want to ride together? And we still had maybe 200 miles to go. to maybe, maybe even a little more than 200.
It's so
[00:15:36]Craig Dalton: crazy. Like I can't even get my head around, like being that it, you know, in the pain locker. And then And then
[00:15:43]James Gracey: like, you know, you have 200 miles to go. We don't think, we don't ever talk about like, Oh, we only have 600 more miles to go. We have more miles to go. Yeah, we just have to get, we have to get to the next control.
We just got to get to the next control. And we rode together through the night. Uh, and it was awesome. It was one of my best night rides ever. That, uh, uh, emotionally that I've ever had. It was awesome. We were making good time. It was a beautiful night. We're all laughing. Having a, um, a good time. We're all, uh, fed.
And we all have fluids. And making stops where we need to stop. And get a sausage or a coffee or whatever. And it was awesome. Um, and then we got to two controls to go. And there was a storm coming in behind us and I'm showing them on the radar like this is coming It's really thin. It's gonna like it's gonna blanket us with water and lightning for like 15 minutes So let's get under that tent and go to sleep For 15 minutes and they said no, I was like well, I Think we should stay dry.
I think it's important because if you get wet after you know, you're gonna get blisters It's gonna be very uncomfortable Things are going to start rubbing you in the wrong places. Like you could have a whole host of new problems because you're wet and it hasn't rained yet. Yeah. And so then they, we traded like we compromised.
Uh, Ed was the, was, um, uh, did the most compromise. He said, all right, I'm going to go get a sandwich and a Coke. You sleep. I'll wake up in 15 minutes. And if it's not raining, we're leaving. And I was like, done. So he did that. Uh, and Matt and Misha, we're all, we were still all there together. And, uh, they were stronger riders than me, so I need them.
So he kicked me to wake me up, and I was like, let's go. And, uh, it kept getting, then it got light, maybe two or three, two hours later. So the
[00:17:35]Craig Dalton: rainstorm, did it materialize?
[00:17:37]James Gracey: No, it didn't rain. I told him it was going to rain and showed them the radar.
they're stronger than me, so they finished before me. I was like, I was on the ridge by myself. The rainstorm was right behind us. Like I'm watching the lightning storm roll in. And the lightning storm went around just like that. Sounds like you
[00:17:58]Craig Dalton: just convinced these guys you needed a 15 minute nap.
[00:18:01]James Gracey: I need 15 minutes, yeah.
But they were, they were cool with it and we all left together. Uh, and we met up with another SFR guy named Noah, who's a really strong rider. And, We were rocking through the middle of morning having a great time. Was
[00:18:17]Craig Dalton: this the most simpatico group you ever found? Yeah, throughout the time. For sure.
[00:18:20]James Gracey: Yeah, without them I wouldn't have finished.
Like if it hadn't been, if it hadn't been for them and their enthusiasm to finish um Like Ed had done it 12 years ago and didn't finish Uh, it was Misha's first time. It may have been, I don't remember about Matt Um, but they had a lot of energy and enthusiasm and like hey, let's all We're better off together than we are separately, so let's figure out a way to do this together.
Even though Misha was so fast, and he was in like Teva clip ins, he was so fast. We would all start together, and he would take off, and we just wouldn't see him again until the next control. We'd catch up at the control, or at stop, and then we would all leave together. He would, he would take, he's like, I'm just riding my pace.
But he was, uh, had a great attitude. Uh, and then, maybe, maybe four, four or five hours before the finish start raining. And then the rain, if it had rained two days earlier, it would have been a different ballgame. But because you know, you can kind of see the light at the end of the tunnel. You, uh, you're motivated and they, they had stopped for coffee.
So I went on and they're faster so I figured they would, uh, catch up with me at some point. And then I rode with, uh, I rode with One gentleman from, um, Thailand and one from Indonesia for a while that I think they'd kind of lost hope a little bit. They were, uh, they'd missed their cutoffs by a ways. We saw people and were talking to people that had, their deadline, their, like, time to finish is literally within an hour.
And we're a hundred miles away. And they, all they could talk about is, I have to get there, I have to get there. I'm like, slow down. You're not making any sense. You're all over the road. People were, in the last 12 hours before the finish, people are not making any sense. People are not speaking in complete sentences.
People that clearly speak English are not speaking, are not speaking English. They're making up things in their head and telling you about them like they're real. And all they said, the only, the only cohesive, Sentiment with all of those people is I'm gonna finish. I'm going to, like, even no matter what they're talking about, rainbows and unicorns or shiny pennies or whatever they got going on in their brain that's not working out because they need some rhodiola, probably, they consistently say, this is, one guy said, this is the, this is the time.
This is the year. He said it in like kind of French English. This is the year I'll finish. Yeah. This is the year. Like, yeah. Like he had done this several other times. I had not finished and he was probably 15 years older than me. I'm 51. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah,
[00:21:11]Craig Dalton: it's so interesting I mean you and I talked about this a little bit on a bike ride one day just Even with Ironman's and different things that we've done.
I've always known the finish line was there and within my capabilities, but 1, 200 kilometers In that timeframe, so much can go wrong. Whether it's physically, mentally, mechanically. So
[00:21:33]James Gracey: much can go wrong. Yeah. Like some things just are beyond your control and it's unfortunate. Uh, and it's, it's, there are so many opportunities for something to go catastrophically wrong or just to eat up so much time.
You're like, I've spent six hours on the side of the road trying to fix this problem and it's not fixed. Yeah. And now I'm exhausted from trying to fix the problem. Yeah. And I haven't made it a single additional mile. Yeah. None of that ever happened to me. It does happen. Like I did see people that happen.
We had the event, um, in the end had about a 40 percent DNF rate, which is, they have 4, 800 finishers out of 8, 000. Okay. And was that
[00:22:13]Craig Dalton: because it was hot this year or is that pretty average?
[00:22:16]James Gracey: I think that's even higher than average. I think the average is like 33 or 35. It depends on where you're from. Some people dropped out because it was hot.
It was like maybe 90 the first day, maybe, maybe a little more than that, 90 Fahrenheit. And one guy talked to after the race was over. He said, I dropped out. I said, it was too cold. He was 81 and from Thailand. And so he's, you know, it needs to be 90 for him to ride comfortably. Right. Not, not 80. And he said it was too cold.
It was way too cold. And then he just dropped out. So you didn't have any mechanical
[00:22:49]Craig Dalton: mishaps. You largely, you know, you, you. You found yourself in the hurt locker physically at certain points, but you kind of just did what you need to do, right? You don't know exactly what the answer is. You just know don't go fast
[00:23:02]James Gracey: and hydrate There's no reason to go fast and that you can't ride if you don't drink.
Yeah So you didn't
[00:23:08]Craig Dalton: you're you're sort of now within 50 miles of the finish line Yeah, you did mention to me you had some some issues.
[00:23:14]James Gracey: We had some yeah So I sent you a text at one point said I think I just sent it to you I was like, and my wife, I'm like, I'm pulling out. Like, back, right after breast. And then, we rocked through the night.
I mean, we, we slept for the last 37 hours. I slept maybe an hour. And moved a lot. Like, there was not a lot of sit down. And we were working together well, and doing it the way you're supposed to be doing it. And having, like, these really great feelings of camaraderie. And, and, even though it's self reliance, like, you're doing it.
With the friendship and camaraderie of others that are like minded and close to the same, uh, physical capability. And it was awesome. And so I got to the last control in Drew. And I was like, I have three hours left. And now it's only 30K. It's like we're maybe a little more, maybe like 24 miles. I have three hours.
I'm gonna, I'm like, I was elated. We had worked really hard to get there. and have been raining for a couple of hours, but it's only 24 miles. And, so I texted everybody I knew basically. I was like, I'm going to make it. I can't believe it. Like, my brain is coming back together. It's not in the middle of the night.
You're thinking all this weird stuff. And, um, I know what's going on. I'm, uh, I'm helping out with these, these two guys that I've been riding with and have been raining for a couple of hours, but it's only 24 miles. So I sat down, had a meal, which was awesome, and, uh, the two guys I was riding with, only one of them wanted to continue.
They'd both missed their time cuts already, and so one of them was going to sleep. Uh, and I'd had a flat repaired. They had a mechanic station there, and I'd been riding a probably 10 pound flat for 10 miles. Because I didn't want to stop and do it in the rain. You've got to get it all out, and it's like it would have taken forever.
And I was hoping that there would be a, um, And so we left, and when I got my bike from the, from the shop, my Garmin's not, not working. It just wants me to delete everything. And I turn it on, turn it off, turn it on, turn it off. It's like, I don't know, it's, I've been following signs. There are signs that say either Brest or Paris the whole way.
There's probably 20, 000 signs on the route. Were you trying,
[00:25:35]Craig Dalton: were you, I'm just curious about this little detail. It may seem super minute, but how were you trying to keep your electronics powered along the way? I had batteries.
[00:25:44]James Gracey: I had a battery, I had two solar chargers that were battery packed just in case.
Like, I kind of did it the wrong way. I had three lights of just the little trail, I forgot the name of the brand, but it's a mountain bike light that lasts about four hours on low. So I had three of those just in case, because if you don't have, if one of your lights goes out and you get stopped by control, you have to...
Joe Davis, Speaking: Wait for it to charge before you can, Craig Perkinsland,
[00:26:09]Craig Dalton: Speaking: Because, it's illegal to ride
[00:26:10]James Gracey: in that area. Joe Davis, Speaking: That's right. Craig Perkinsland,
Speaking: Right, And on the, on this ride without, without a tail light, a headlight and um, reflective gear. And so I had three taillights, three headlights, two big battery packs, and my bike probably weighed 15 pounds too much. And, uh, so everything, you know, was staying charged, I've got the Garmin charge, I've watched charge most of it kind of messed up one day.
And So we leave and it's not working and I said, all right, well, it's not, I can't get this right. And so you just follow the signs. I've been following signs. Literally, I could have done it without a Garmin, without directions at all until that point. Yeah. And, uh, we had been warned that people will steal the signs.
Okay. That as a souvenir. So you get a sign, they give you one of the signs when you, when you pick up your, when
[00:27:00]Craig Dalton: you pick up your bag,
[00:27:03]James Gracey: because then they will steal them all in the same place, right next to the end. Right. Right. Because that's where they all are. They're done. They go back on the course and they grab one.
And so I'm riding with a, uh, a gentleman from Thailand and we're following, uh, a man from France. I don't know where he was from in France, but he didn't speak any English. And so we're following signs, following signs, and all of a sudden there's no more signs. So it's me, the guy from Thailand, the guy from France, and two people from Germany, a husband and wife team.
Um, we realized. Nobody knows where they're going. Nobody's electronics are working. There's no, I see zero signs. And you're just in farmland. And, we're like, alright, well, how do we get back to there? So we started, all of us started going to a, in a direction of a, that we thought, and we got up there, and it's not, it's not the right way.
There's no sign. So we realize we're lost. And the gentleman that we were following, because I'm just following, and so you've been doing it for,
I'm following the guy in front of me and then the people he's following because he doesn't have electronics. The woman, uh, it was a husband and wife team. The woman has Shermer's neck, which I'd never heard of until two months ago or three months ago. What the heck is that? And I've never seen it. So at the very end, I saw maybe a dozen people with it and it's where it's a condition that you can't hold your head up anymore.
So your neck muscles are shot and they're not firing and all you look at if you're on the bike All you're looking at is your pedals. You can't even pick your head up to look past the handlebars You can see you can see your pedals your handlebar and your wheel, but you don't know where you're going If you have to take a right turn, you can't do it She is holding your head up with her fist under her chin.
That's incredible And her husband is giving her directions from behind her a little to the right A little, a little, uh, because you can't really, I mean, she's been awake for, you know, three and a half days. And so, we're like, we're following the people with Shermer's neck, and nobody has electronics, and there's no signs.
We don't know where we are. We don't know
[00:29:14]Craig Dalton: where we are. I can't even imagine how demoralizing that would be. It
[00:29:17]James Gracey: was pretty bad. Yeah. Uh, I don't have any, I go, uh, I cannot get anything on my Garmin to work at all. And it probably, it's from, Like, right now, if I were in the same condition, I would say, Oh, you do this and this and this.
And, like, logic's kind of going out the window. I think we're going to miss the, we're going to miss the cutoff. I look to see how far, the start and finish town is Rambouillet. And I look to see how far Rambouillet is. And it's, I only had 24 miles from Drew to Rambouillet. Well, now it's like 27 miles. And I'm like, Oh.
By, by, like, Apple Maps. And I said, I'm just gonna ride back. I don't know what you guys are doing. The charmer's neck and husband, they left, going in one direction. And we're not going that way. Because it's not the direction of the finish town. I don't know where they're going. So we rode back to where we think we got lost.
And we're riding around. The guy that only speaks French is trying to get his garment to work. We're all worried because he and I are in the same group. We're both about to miss cutoff. The other guy... Uh, from Thailand had already missed it. And, I got on my, on my phone, just directions back to, back to the start finish line.
I was like, I'm just gonna follow this. I said, this is what, I point to the guy from France, I said, this is what I'm gonna do. You can come with me if you want. And he said, no. He said, come with me. Come with me. I said, but this gets me there, and this has me getting there 15 minutes late. But I know, you know, it's, it's doing it from a, from a bicyclist perspective and I can probably go faster than that.
Has me there 15 minutes late, but also it has like seven, you know, construction zone things going on. I'm like, this is, I can't believe I've worked all this all for the last three days and qualification and giving up time with my family. It was kind enough to let me do all this and I screwed it up in the last like 20 miles.
Yeah. And I'm going to miss it. I'm going to finish, but I'm, I'm so close to completing it in the cutoff time. Yeah. So we're panicked, and he said, no, he's motioning, just follow me, just follow me. So he literally starts going down a pedestrian path that no bikes are allowed on, or cars, because it's like a sidewalk, going through fields, going in the opposite direction of the finish town.
And I see it on my phone, like we're going the wrong way. And he's like, just follow me. And so I'm, I'm like, all right. Do I go with Apple Maps? I don't trust, I don't trust for many reasons. Or do I follow this Frenchman who is pretty emphatically saying, follow me, I, I know where we are. And so I followed him, and we went maybe two or two and a half miles on pedestrian paths, where Apple's saying like, you can't be on this path.
And then, we're still gonna get there late, according to Apple. We're still gonna get there late, we're still gonna get there late. And then finally we pop out on this road, and I see other cyclists. So we're back on the path, and so, okay, so we're back on the path, but Apple says, I'm gonna miss my, miss my time cut by 15 minutes still.
And so we're, and I'm like, now I, now I see riders, and I just get, I say, look, I can pull us, just get on my wheel, just sit on me, and we'll go as fast as we can. We'll go as hard as we can until one of us passes out. And he ends up dropping off. And I take off and then the path, it still says I'm going to miss it.
I've been riding for 20 minutes, it still says I'm going to miss it. And then the path that we're on goes up a one way street the wrong way, which Apple Maps won't let you do. And so as soon as I get to the other side of that, it drops it by 30 minutes. It's incredible. And I'm going as hard, I'm like, I'm head down, going as hard as I can without blowing up.
Everything I got until that point. And I realize, like, I realize what has just happened and now I'm going to get there 30 minutes ahead of time. And I breathe, breathe for a second and still going hard. And finally I catch up with these, uh, these guys that are SFR, um, riders. And I'm just like, I'm about to fall over.
Like, can I just sit on your wheel? And they let me sit on their wheels, Hans and another gentleman. And I sat on their wheel until the finish line. And got there in time. I was there. And then I'm super worried about the Frenchman, who, if it weren't for him, I'd be on a highway somewhere trying to get back to the start line.
Yeah. Following Apple maps. Uh, and if it weren't for him, and he's in the same cutoff as me, so I did see him, uh, after he finished and he made the cutoff. And we had a great, we had a tearful embrace and it was, I was terrified I was gonna miss it. And I have all these emotions. And like, I was totally fine emotionally until I could even see the finish line.
I'm like, there it is. Like, let's just, let's just go to it. And then I got to the finish line and lost it and burst into tears. And my friend Ray is there and he's like, wow. . Wow. Because he, he finished, he finished in, in 80 hours I think. Something. Okay. Like he finished really fast. No, he finished in, uh, 74 hours I think.
Yeah. And so he had been there and gotten a night's sleep and, uh, and I was just a mess and I've never been like that. And maybe my first Ironman ever, cause I was, you know, I'd built it up in my brain that it was going to be this huge accomplishment and, and it was, it was, it was incredibly
[00:34:52]Craig Dalton: emotional.
Yeah. Understandably so. I mean, everything you went through to get there, to arrive in France in the first place, and then certainly everything you went through. Over the course of those 84 hours. Yeah. Like to finally like, not have to stress,
[00:35:06]James Gracey: to not have to, you know, pressure on you to like, keep going and keep finishing.
Yeah. And just where you can, like you didn't need
[00:35:12]Craig Dalton: to do anything. You didn't need. It's done. Yeah, it's done. Throw the bike
[00:35:15]James Gracey: down, pass out. I couldn't believe it and I made it. Uh, I did an 83, 83 25 I think. Okay. I had 35, 35 minutes to spare. So it was, it was close, especially considering an hour before that I was not going to make it and the time cut off at all.
Do you
[00:35:32]Craig Dalton: get the sense from some of your other riders that you knew, like Ray, like, did they get involved with groups that were like moving together throughout the entire
[00:35:41]James Gracey: course? Ray did for sure because he left at 90 hours and he said he, they had really good groups taking turns. And, uh, and that's, that's.
I mean, that's a good way to go. You know, it definitely is, uh, gets you going faster with less effort. Um, there were, there were large groups, probably, probably a lot of large groups from the 90 hour group. Uh, and then our group, I never really saw, I would see, there were, at the occasional control, or we'd leave an even, just a sandwich shop or something.
People would say, all right, I'm going to go, and then two minutes later somebody else would leave, and then 30 seconds later somebody else would leave, and 30 seconds behind someone is no benefit. Yeah. So we would have to say, stop. Like, let's all leave in two minutes, and there will be five of us together instead of five individuals spread apart.
And some people, I think, just want to do it on their own, and that's just where their, where their mind is, and where their, like, kind of their game plan is. I'm going to do it on my own. I'm like, okay. Yeah, but I need some help. , I need to ride somebody else. . Uh, and they were, uh, I did hear, I heard stories. Uh, I, I heard story of one person that had s schirmer's neck that put screws into her helmet and then taped, taped the screws and then taped the tape back to the back of her bag in the back to hold her head up so she could see.
And then one gentleman I had breakfast with the next day. from, uh, he was Irish. He had, he had a, not terrible case of it, but pretty bad, I mean bad enough that he said he had to, he stacked all of his spacers onto his head tube to raise his arms up so he could raise up enough to see it's not the right position.
And he said at one point he was looking at his fork and he said he looked at it for two hours in the middle of the night. He said, that's not my fork. That's not, somebody got, somebody while I was sleeping, came in here while I was eating, came in here and changed my fork to this fork. That's not my fork.
Who would have done that? Gone through all that trouble. That's a lot of effort. To change, take my fork and give me this other fork. I said, how'd you, what'd you do? And he goes, I had to go back through pictures and find a picture of me standing next to my bike with that fork. To convince myself like, oh, I'm just, Not in the right place mentally to make decisions like this, you know, magical fork theft.
Oh, yeah. And, uh, some stories like that I heard a lot of the next day. And a lot of Shermer's Neck stories of people that can't hold their head up. Yeah. And, uh, you could see, I didn't see any of, I didn't see any of this, but I did get told people would come to the finish line and it changes pavement. It goes from hard packed gravel to cobbles for 30 feet maybe.
to, to loose gravel dirt in, uh, maybe 200 meters before the finish line. It changes three different pavements. And people would see the finish line and raise their arms and and celebration immediately fall to the ground. Because they have no control over anything. They have You know, something that muscles aren't working on them or they try to raise their arm and race that they would just see him like fall over and they've now crashed 25 feet from the finish line from no, from no reason other than celebrating that they're excited and they don't realize things don't work and yeah, like muscles don't work, their neck doesn't work, their arms, shoulders are all pinched and locked up and he said people are just falling over.
Like, oh, person after person, after person celebrating. And they would just crash and they'd have to go pick 'em up. And then I can't imagine a kind of a worst way to . Worst way to end your 90 hour. Yeah. Uh, bicycle ride. It's crashing in the gravel and getting a bunch of rocks under your skin. A hundred
[00:39:42]Craig Dalton: percent.
So what do you, what do you do after finishing? You just go and crash somewhere and sleep
[00:39:47]James Gracey: for a day? Yeah. Uh, I didn't have a plan 'cause I didn't know, I didn't know what was gonna happen. Uh, I did have a vehicle there. Uh, Uh, so I went and stayed in the barracks. So they just open up a big room, basically, in, in one of the buildings and throw cots in there.
They have cots and, like, an emergency blanket. And I bought some, uh, I didn't, I didn't, I wasn't really thinking right. I ordered a pizza, but I don't think I ever went to pick it up. No, I went to go get a change of mind at a steak. And, uh, so I got some bottles of Evian. She rinsed off and went and laid down.
And then people, I went to bed at maybe ten at night. Forty nine to one oesophytoptics. there at five or you know, just before five in the evening and there were people that kept coming in for the next, I was there twelve hours maybe I left at maybe ten in the morning and people kept coming in you could hear them like shuffling around falling over cots and they've been out there for at this point, like four days or maybe even longer depends on when they left because if you are, it's an out and back.
So if you're 50 miles from the finish and you want to call it quits, there's nobody to call it quits too. There's not a control there. There's nothing there. You just need to ride ride on end. Yeah. And, and they kind of got, I think they were in probably pretty bad condition. Yeah. I slept, slept well, and then I went and had more food and I've been, I'm still eating, I'm still catching up on food and probably not fluids, but on, on food.
Yeah. Um, that it, it just takes a lot of time to put it back in you to gain your weight back.
[00:41:26]Craig Dalton: Such an incredible experience and accomplishment. Having done lots of big events, your Ironmans, your Leadvilles, where does Perry Breast Paris fit into the... It's pretty
[00:41:36]James Gracey: high. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't think that at the beginning.
And then I told, it may have been you that I told, that kind of the further I get away from that event, Um, the more special it is. Is becoming to me in my brain like remembering all of I probably have a I probably have a solid year's worth of writing stories Yeah in three days. Yeah, and some of them significant Some of them were like a very low point for me or a very high point for me or just seeing something I've never never seen I've been cyclist my whole life since I was 12.
I ever seen Schermer's neck And know what it what it was. That's all dozen of them people that I don't know, you know There were people that were definitely being dangerous at the end, but they don't know they're being dangerous. Like, at one point, we had to tell one, uh, one rider to get away from us.
Like, you were riding from the right line across the line to the left line on the other, on oncoming traffic. In fact, for every, you know, hundred meters you're, you're moving forward, you probably did 300 meters of riding because you're just going back and forth. And it's not a hill. It's flat, flat ish, and it's dangerous.
And so they, you know, they gotta, they need to be able to stop those. But when do you stop? How do you tell an official? You don't, I'm not stopping to tell anybody anything. I'm going. Like, we're close. I did hear of one gentleman that was, that was just non responsive, 100%. He's standing there, eyes open. He's not saying a word.
And he's just comatose. Yeah, and they pulled him. Yeah is what I heard and that probably is having people are the people are just it's in their brains They're gonna go and get this thing done. Yeah. And they like, I felt like I was really mentally prepared for it and these people are way more mentally prepared for it than I was.
'cause I, they're just not gonna stop to, probably to the point of being dangerous. Yeah.
[00:43:32]Craig Dalton: But I mean, there's gotta be a little bit of that in you, just inherently in signing up for something like this. You know, as you said before, you know it's possible. You've previewed in your mind the places you're gonna need to go and the pain you're gonna have.
Yeah. And you've said to yourself, Unless it's going to hurt me physically or my family, I'm going to keep going. Like, you're right. You're, you're sort of like, I made
[00:43:52]James Gracey: those decisions. You make the trade in your brains already, uh, of what it is that you're willing to give up to get to the next control. Are you going to do this?
Yes or no. And if you get to a point and you know, the answer is no, because I don't want to. Yeah. Be in the oncoming traffic. Yeah. Like if I were doing that, I'm like, all right, I'm going to finish, but I'm going to go to bed for until I wake up. I'm not going to set an alarm. I'm just going to go over to some grass somewhere and fall asleep.
And, and then you can come back and you can finish. Mind if I make you time, but you did it in a safer manner. Yeah. I definitely got the feeling that some people are not, they were, it's almost like the way that I have ever explained, uh, uh, drinking alcohol to one of my kids. Like my kids are in young, young teens.
So we talk about it. I'm like, somebody, like, you would never have, like, my son would never have ten beers. Ten. I mean, ten's a lot. But somebody with nine beers in them would. And it's not you anymore. Like, you are not making that decision anymore. It's the person with nine in them that's making the decision, and you gave them authority to make that decision when you had eight and seven and six, and, right, and back it on down.
It's the exact same thing. That person, if I showed them a video of themselves, Right now, weaving all over the road, they would make the decision to lay down and go to sleep. Yeah. But it's not them making the decision anymore. It's them, plus 680 miles, or 700 miles, or even further, and, you know, three or four hours of sleep in four days, with this tremendous physical exertion, and this tremendous physical expense.
Uh, so they're not making that decision anymore. It's whatever they have kind of predetermined in their mind as their break point. And their break point was pretty far. But, that said, I don't, I think, I, I did read an article that said it was an unsafe event. Like, they're, well, you put 8, 000 people on a bicycle, all at the same time something's gonna happen.
It's not gonna be good. And that's just the law of probability. Like, I don't think anybody has died doing the ride in, maybe the last one was 2011 or something. And yeah, that's, uh, that's not, that's not bad. It's not like people are dying on it all the time, or even end up in the hospital, uh, to my knowledge.
And for that reason, I think it's, you know, even though there are dangerous things that are happening, it seems to be like pretty safe event. Where you think
[00:46:28]Craig Dalton: about the equipment available, the nutrition, like all the stuff.
[00:46:36]James Gracey: It's, that's one of the things that draws me to it, to that specific event, like I feel like I feel accomplished as a rider for having done it and haven't gone through some peaks and valleys and a couple of significant valleys for me, like, I feel that makes you feel accomplished if it was just the easy peasy and I sat on somebody's wheel for 760 miles, like I probably still felt accomplished actually,
[00:47:00]Craig Dalton: it's a long way, but
[00:47:02]James Gracey: But doing it on, uh, what is probably a 40 pound bicycle, probably with solid, probably more than that.
It's the same amount of climbing that they 40, 000 feet. Yeah. Uh, with whatever they had available to them and whatever, I mean, I've got heart rate and Garmin and I know the, I know, I see what is coming. I see the hills that are coming up through technology. I've got a relatively light bike. That is, you know, probably one of the, uh, it's probably a fantastic bike for this particular event packs, rain gear, technical gear, super stiff shoes, all
[00:47:44]Craig Dalton: your bag of
[00:47:45]James Gracey: modern medicine, I've got everything, a big, big top tube filled with rhodiola and, and salt tabs and like, uh, like all kinds of stuff.
I can't imagine having done something like that 130 years ago. And and and finishing. Yeah, it's unbelievable to me that I mean people had some grit to be able to To do that like What distance or what level of complication or elevation would you have to accomplish now for it to be equated to that? I don't know.
Yeah, but it's definitely further with a lot more climbing. Yeah definitely to match the same Tenacity that they had to go and yeah and say i'm gonna go do that. I mean, it's
[00:48:31]Craig Dalton: unbelievable. It's unbelievable Yeah, it's I mean, it's just like everything It happening every four years Yeah, the sheer challenge of what you undertook.
It's just amazing. Congrats for
[00:48:42]James Gracey: yeah. Thank you. Thank you. It was, it was, it was awesome. I would love to go back and do it again with friends. Uh, as you and I talked about, it's a difficult, it's a difficult event to do with a friend, I think. Yeah. Because at some point, if you're one mile an hour off of the other one, you guys, you have to split up and go on your own.
Um, and for, and that's the only reason it would be, it'd be difficult be, be fun to do the purveys together. It'd be fun to do the training together and be fun to make an adventure out of it together. Uh, and be, you know, as partnered up as you can, just like a cycling race. And then when it comes time to like, Hey, this is not working out for one of us.
Yeah. The other one has to understand and yeah,
[00:49:23]Craig Dalton: no, I think you, you just, you have your own journeys in these events. You have your own, it's your own, it's your own thing. Whether it's these big gravel events or per breasts, Paris, it's just like, Hopefully, I mean, I think that's the beauty of it. Right? You, you get to the finish line, you've all gone through your stuff, whatever that stuff was, but you were out there together.
You saw the same things and you come back and you can revel in that shared experience, even though you weren't riding side by side. Yeah. Like
[00:49:47]James Gracey: the guys that I rode with the last day, basically, if I saw them right now, I might give them a big hug and I barely know them, but we did that thing. We did that together, especially at the end.
And, uh, and have that shared experience and can laugh about it and they all have their own lives to get by. It's not what they do for a living. Yeah. You know, it's a, it is a, it's a hobby. It's a, it's a good hobby. It's a athletic, it will help you live longer. Uh, but in the end it's just a, it's a, it's something you're doing for yourself as much as I tell my kids I'm doing it for them.
I want to be around to help you guys later. The way I'm going to be around is stay fit.
[00:50:27]Craig Dalton: Yeah. Thanks for sharing the story. Thank you for
[00:50:29]James Gracey: having me, Craig. It's, Craig and I've been friends for 20 ish years and, uh, and it's, I'm super, uh, happy and, and really honored to be on your podcast. Yeah. A lot of people follow you and, uh, like even when Craig and I have been in different areas of the world, people said, are you Craig Dalton?
Are you Craig Dalton? You have your, your gravel ride jersey on and they're like, do you know Craig Dalton? And one time you had to say, I am Greg Dalton. Right? I'm like, all right. It's, uh, so it's, it's fun to be a part of that. Awesome. Thank you very much.
[00:51:02]Craig Dalton: You're welcome. I appreciate having you. Um, I was stoked to document some of this journey cause I want your kids and family to listen to it and hear all your stories and all of our friends.
And hopefully everybody else out there will check out Peri Express Paris. There's a lot written about it. There's a lot of resources and you can see the journey that many people went on this year in 2023. Yeah.
[00:51:23]James Gracey: Yeah. Thanks Greg. Awesome.
[00:51:25]Craig Dalton: Thanks man. Yeah.
That's going to do it for this week's edition of the gravel rod podcast. Big, thanks to James for coming on and telling us all about Perry breasts, Paris. I hope like me. You enjoyed learning a little bit more about the sport of randonneuring and such a story to event they have there and France. I forget if we mentioned it during the show, but it only happens every four years. So it's such a big deal. To arrive at the start line and get to the finish line. It's definitely one of those bucket list events. I was thrilled to get James on the microphone to talk about it as I wanted to document his experiences. So you could share it with his family first and foremost, but also to all of you. If you're able to support the podcast, please visit find me a coffee.com/the gravel ride or ratings and reviews are hugely appreciated. Until next time here's to finding some dirt onto your wheels
- Se mer
