Episodes
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In this episode, Lindsey, Rustin, and Ali interview Dr. Teren Sevea, Assistant Professor of Islamic Studies at Harvard Divinity School about his recent book, Miracles and Material Life: Rice, Ore, Traps and Guns in Islamic Malaya (Cambridge University Press, 2020).
Dr. Sevea reveals the significance of Islamic miracle workers, called pawangs or bomohs, in the Malay world from the 19th century to the present. He maps out the spiritual economy of the Indian Ocean world and its many human and non-human actors. These figures, steeped in the practice and cosmology of Sufism, were instrumental to the material life of the societies they lived in. They frequently directed the extraction of natural resources, the adaptation and use of new technologies, and the navigation of land and sea.
Combining an analysis of overlooked sources, including manuscripts and personal interaction with modern pawangs, Dr. Sevea shows how these miracle workers interacted with the Unseen world to aid and direct labor in the societies they lived in. For example, they were seen as masters of prospecting and mining tin, taming elephants and tigers, or even shooting guns. Even British colonial officials who dismissed them as “primitive” sought out their aid and guidance when it came to navigating the material world, admitting their skill despite their “superstitions.” To further complicate matters, some pawangs even considered these very same colonial officials as their own “companions” even while some of their peers encouraged war against their imperial masters.
Despite their centrality to the past, pawangs and bomohs today are marginalized in official discourse and media within Malaysia and Singapore today. Yet they are still very present, whether in guiding their followers, healing the sick, or even producing internationally acclaimed art. Dr. Sevea shows the pertinence of working with living pawangs and bomohs in order to understand their role in the eastern Indian Ocean world. Their instructions and living memory is instrumental not only to approaching their past, but also in understanding this significant chapter in the religious, social, and economic history of the Indian Ocean. -
In this episode, Ali interviews Dr. Mana Kia, an Associate Professor in Columbia University’s department of Middle Eastern, South Asian, and African Studies about her book, [Persianate Selves: Memories of Place and Origin Before Nationalism](http://https://www.sup.org/books/title/?id=29033) (Stanford University Press, 2020).
If contemporary notions of being Persian are rooted in recent history, what did it mean to be Persian before nationalism? In the interconnected spaces of premodern Asia, Persian served as a language of learning and shared communication that facilitated the exchange of texts, practices, goods, and ideas, creating a Persianate cultural sphere. Persian not only provided a shared language but also gave access to a whole series of broader ideas and practices.
In this older sense of being Persian, Dr. Kia has uncovered a conception of selfhood based on a very different understanding of place and origin. In it, people always understood themselves in relation to multiple collectives, not singular nations, origins, or ethnicities. Her study argues that the wide range of possible Persianate selves allowed for a type of pluralism that the nation state has been unable to provide, a pluralism that has more promise than the eurocentric notion of tolerance.
The types of kinship that are produced through these shared lineages all center around the vast notion of adab. Adab is “aesthetic in ethical form,” a notion of the proper form of things that guides seeing, experiencing, thinking, and even desiring. It was adab, she argues, that kept Persianate worlds together even as their societies collapsed-- providing a shared pluralistic moral order and language that allowed them to reconstitute after each collapse. Key to this were literary genres like poetry or tazkira writing, serving as acts of commemoration in which these selves and modes of belonging were articulated. This episode concludes with a reflection on Dr. Kia’s own multifaceted family history and how it informs and aids her work. -
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In this episode, Ali interviews Dr. Manan Ahmed Asif, an Associate Professor in Columbia University’s History department, about his book, [The Loss of Hindustan, the Invention of India](https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674987906) (Harvard University Press, 2020).
Before nationalism—before even the European colonization of South Asia—the term Hindustan signified a regional identity that spanned the length of modern Pakistan, India, and Bangladesh. It referred both to a geography with shifting and porous boundaries as well as to a shared physical and mental space inhabited by peoples with overlapping literatures, music, food, and even dress.
To approach Hindustan, Dr. Ahmed Asif focuses on the writings of the 17th century historian Firishta, who lived in the Deccan region of what is now South India. Firishta’s history is unique because, unlike many premodern histories, it focuses on Hindustan itself as a subject, not a particular family or lineage. To do this, he drew not only from Arabic and Persian sources, but also from texts like the Sanskrit epic Mahabharata, melding approaches in a way that reveals a comfort with contradiction and multiplicity. It was this multiplicity, not only of place, but religion, ethnicity, genre, and language, that defined Hindustan.
The afterlife of Firishta’s work is equally telling. It was rendered into English multiple times in the 18th and 19th centuries for the British East India Company, providing them not only a means of approach to the histories, kingdoms, and religions of Hindustan, but also a bibliography of its major sources. In turn, once rendered into English, it inspired the theorizations of history that came to define European modernity, such as those of Kant, Hegel, and even Gibbon. Yet that same colonial enterprise mined Firishta’s work for its own ends until, by the 20th century, his history was considered derivative in relation to older sources, and thus, largely forgotten. Dr. Ahmed Asif concludes with his reflections on the ethics of history and its repercussions for the type of future that we can imagine. -
In this episode, Kamyar and Rustin interview Armenian-American composer and performer Joseph Bohigian about his latest musical composition, “The Water Has Found Its Crack” (2020), which explores concepts of displacement, dispersion, and cultural preservation in Armenian music.
The composition’s title refers to an anecdote shared by Turkish-Armenian journalist Hrant Dink about a French-Armenian woman who died while visiting the village of her youth in Turkey. When the question of where she should be buried arose, a man from the village responded “Let her be buried here...the water has found its crack.” It is a story of Armenians longing to be reunited with their indigenous land, not to take it but, in Dink’s words, “to come and be buried under it.”
The discussion begins with Bohighian’s reflections about his family’s displacement during the 1915 Armenian Genocide, his upbringing in the diaspora, and his nine-month stay in Yerevan during which he wrote “The Water Has Found Its Crack.” The conversation then turns to the Armenian music theories and folk songs that influenced the piece, specifically the works of the Komitas (1869-1935), a Kütahya-born priest and musicologist widely known for documenting rural songs of the Armenian countryside. Finally, Bohigian takes us through the composition, highlighting various sections and reciting lyrics sung throughout.
Visit Joseph's [Soundcloud to listen to "the Water Has Found Its Crack."](https://soundcloud.com/joey-bohigian/the-water-has-found-its-crack) -
In this episode, Lindsey and Ali interview Dr. Jyoti Gulati Balachandran, Assistant Professor of History at Penn State, about her book [Narrative Pasts: The Making of a Muslim Community in Gujarat, c. 1400-1650](https://global.oup.com/academic/product/narrative-pasts-9780190123994?cc=us&lang=en&#) (Oxford University Press, July 2020)
The Gujarat region of western India has a long role as a maritime and commercial center in the Indian Ocean, but the rich history of its Muslim community - and the important role of Sufis in developing Gujarat’s identity as a distinct region - has been overlooked. Dr. Balachandran argues that Arabic and Persian literary production among learned Muslim men was crucial to the development of Gujarat as a coherent region between the 15th and 17th centuries, plugging it in to developments across South Asia and beyond. Sufis were particularly important in this endeavor, and she urges us to seriously consider why and how different genres such as taẓkira or manāqib were chosen by these writers instead of dismissing them all under the imposed category of hagiography.
Balachandran shows how textual histories and the tomb complexes of Sufi scholars contribute another source for history beyond that of the court, serving as two poles that reinforced one another’s place in time as well as a specific region. Sufis allowed Sultans to ensure that the Muslim community expanded and prospered, and just as the Sultans militarily defined their kingdoms, Sufis sketched out realms of spiritual rule through these institutions and narratives about the past.
One important example that Dr. Balachandran touches on is the figure of Shaykh Ahmad Khattu, a 15th century Sufi who became the Shaykh of Ahmad Shah I of the Muzaffarids of Gujarat. While there is little contemporary writing about him, the complex that is built for him after his death by the Muzaffarids as well as the histories written by Suhrawardi Sufis in the centuries after his death make him an important pivot in the history of Islam and Gujarat. -
In this episode, Rustin and Ali interview Dr. Kelly Anne Hammond, Assistant Professor of East Asian History in the Department of History at the University of Arkansas, about her book, China’s Muslims and Japan’s Empire: Centering Islam in World War II (University of North Carolina Press, November 2020).
During World War II, Sino-Muslims (Hui Muslims) were an important focal point for Imperial Japanese propaganda. Japanese imperial officials saw Sino-Muslims as crucial intermediaries that could help not only defeat nationalist and communist opposition in China, but also help bolster an image of the empire as anti-Western protectors of Islam. Building on an older academic tradition of Islamic Studies in Japan, knowledge of Islam was put into imperial service. Combined with the patronage of Muslim schools, mosques, and hajj pilgrimage, the empire aimed to create transnational Muslim networks that were centered in Japan and used Japanese as their new lingua franca.
Dr. Hammond shows that these efforts were met with limited success due to the community’s religious and political diversity, as well as the military defeat of Imperial Japan. Even those who were receptive to Japanese efforts ultimately had to ally themselves with other powers following the end of the war, yet the legacy of their role as intermediaries remained even in the Cold War era. -
In this episode, Kamyar and Rustin welcome back Dr. Stefan Williamson Fa to talk about the extraordinary life and music of Sufi-Flamenco star, Aziz Balouch. Stefan has re-issued Balouch's EP, *Sufi Hispano-Pakastani*, originally produced in 1962, with [Death is Not the End Records ](https://deathisnot.bandcamp.com/album/sufi-hispano-pakistani) in 2020.
Dr. Williamson Fa traces Aziz's biography, from a young boy born in Baluchistan in 1910, to studying in Sindh at a sufi shrine, before making his way to Gibraltar and falling in love with Flamenco music. Balouch became a student of legendary Flamenco master, Pepe Marchena, and spent the rest of his life exploring the deep connections between Andalusian music and mystical Islam.
To learn more about Dr. Willamson Fa's research on Aziz Balouch and to listen to his songs in their entirety, visit the accompanying article, "[From Sindh to Andalusia: The Life and Times of Sufi-Flamenco Star Aziz Balouch](https://ajammc.com/2021/01/11/sufi-flamenco-aziz-balouch/)" on the Ajam Media Collective website. -
In this episode, Ali and Lindsey are joined by Dr. Keelan Overton, an independent scholar in Santa Barbara, and Dr. Subah Dayal, Assistant Professor at the Gallatin School of Individualized Study at NYU, to talk about [Iran and the Deccan: Persianate Art, Culture, and Talent in Circulation, 1400-1700 (Indiana University Press, 2020)](https://iupress.org/9780253048912/iran-and-the-deccan/).
They highlight the shared and oft overlooked history of Iran and the Deccan plateau of southern India over a three-hundred-year period. During this time, the sea routes between Iran and the Deccan became a major point of exchange for not only trade, but also the circulation of precious objects, poetic styles, as well as kings, saints, artisans, and statesmen.
The volume paints a picture of a complex world wherein fashions and styles travel across myriad languages and social contexts. It shows how the Sultanates of the Deccan were embedded in, an integral part of, and inheritors to the norms of the Timurid period that are usually associated with the Ottomans, Safavids, and the Mughals. The result was "the creation of a robust transregional Persianate network linking such distant cities as Bidar and Shiraz, Bijapur and Isfahan, and Golconda and Mashhad."
While clear hierarchies developed that privileged the Persian language and its customs, there was also a creative adaptation of Persianate archetypes into Deccani vernaculars. For example, Subah explains how one 17th-century poet tells the story of contemporary battles and political events in the form of the Shahnameh, but in Deccani language. In architecture, Keelan describes how Deccani basalt rock was used to frame the panels of otherwise archetypical Persianate tilework inscriptions. Together, they reveal the merits of interdisciplinarity and creativity for telling global histories.
*Correction, ~16:16: Keelan mentioned the Timurid envoy Abd al-Razzaq going to Bidar. She meant to say Vijayanagara. After four months in the port of Calicut (the destination of his mission on behalf of Shah Rukh), Abd al-Razzaq headed inland and north to the Vijayanagara court of Deva Raya II (see pages 9-10 of the book). -
In this episode, Rustin interviews Dr. Huma Gupta, the Neubauer Junior Research Fellow at Brandeis University, about her 2017 article, “['Nostalgic Desire': The Restoration of Dar ul-Aman Palace in Kabul, Afghanistan"](https://www.academia.edu/41646389/_Nostalgic_Desire_The_Restoration_of_Dar_ul_Aman_Palace_in_Kabul_Afghanistan) (Thresholds Journal, MIT Press).
Gupta shows how the Darul Aman Palace’s restoration, which was initiated by President Ashraf Ghani in 2016, transformed the palace into an object of collective nostalgic belonging-- a symbol of Afghanistan’s gloried past and constantly interrupted history. Originally constructed in 1927 to serve as the seat of Parliament, the Darul Aman Palace has served many purposes over the course of the previous century, ranging from a storehouse, military base, and a refugee camp.
By focusing on the palace during Amanullah Khan’s reign, Ghani’s restoration sanitizes the building’s longer history, using it to promote an image of an Afghanistan that could have been if only its people had accepted their enlightened leaders’ vision of modernity. Gupta pushes against this narrative and provides alternative visions for a restoration that could embody the palace’s many lives. -
In this episode, Rustin interviews Dr. Aria Fani, Professor of Persian and Iranian Studies at the University of Washington, about his upcoming book project, **Making Persian Literature: Iran and Afghanistan in the Age of Romantic Nationalism**.
Dr. Fani’s research explores how literature was utilized in the nation-building process in both Iran and Afghanistan during the turn of the twentieth century. His work pushes back against the narrative that the Persian language was in decline as a lingua franca across large swaths of Central and South Asia in the nineteenth century. While Persian did in fact have to compete with Russian, English, and other languages, it did remain a prominent language of transregional cultural production, and intellectuals worked to reform the language to fit within new nationalist concepts of literary discourse.
In Iran and Afghanistan, nation-state nationalism did not automatically lead to the collapse of all ties across borders, but rather opened up a new site of exchange. He instead shows how Iranian and Afghan intelligentsia traveled back and forth and were in conversation about what came to be the canons for their respective national literatures. For this reason, Fani suggests that Iranians and Afghans were in fact co-conspirators of a shared literary projects. -
In this episode, Lindsey is joined by Dr. Johan Mathew, Assistant Professor of History at Rutgers University, to talk about the circulation of goods and people in the 19th century Indian Ocean. He is the author of **[Margins of the Market: Trafficking and Capitalism across the Arabian Sea](https://history.rutgers.edu/people/faculty/publications/publication-details/1093-margins-of-the-market-trafficking-and-capitalism-across-the-arabian-sea)** (University of California Press, 2016).
The seasonal monsoon winds drew its distant shores together over the centuries, - and places as far afield as Burma and Bandar Abbas relied on one another for staples like rice and dates. Dr. Mathew explains how these flows transformed in the 19th century with new technologies and power dynamics. These connections were simultaneously strengthened through technological innovations like steamships while also being hindered by political changes that rerouted trade. Yet even with the disruptive influence of European imperialisms, Mathew suggests that even they were incapable of curtailing the circulation, passage, and interconnectivity that continues to defines the Indian Ocean today. -
In this episode, Kamyar is joined by Murat Keyder, a New York City-based musician and composer, to talk about his recent album, *[Rüya](https://open.spotify.com/album/1UgDWDZVXJRKhyhH7FjBVm?highlight=spotify:track:5OqTvH0D8t0vZBnMDR7rCd)* (2019). He is also the author of *[Learning Balkan and Middle Eastern Music on Guitar](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N6M5YYE/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_hsch_vapi_tkin_p1_i0)* (2016).
Originally from Turkey, Keyder is a guitarist and oud player, whose music is influenced by many different types of contemporary and classical music from Turkey, the Balkans, Southwest Asia, and other parts of the world. Keyder discusses the importance of improvisation in the creation of the album, and how he was able to incorporate Turkish maqams and other formal traditions into his songs.
To listen to the album, [click here](https://open.spotify.com/album/1UgDWDZVXJRKhyhH7FjBVm?highlight=spotify:track:5OqTvH0D8t0vZBnMDR7rCd). -
In this episode, Rustin and Ali are joined by Professor Najam Haider, Professor of Religion at Barnard College, to talk about his recent book, The Rebel and the Imām in Early Islam: Explorations in Muslim Historiography.
The lack of contemporary sources for the first century of the Islamic period poses many challenges for historians past and present. Engaging with many of the impasses that still animate the study of early Islam, Professor Haider proposes that one way forward is to explore the rules that governed historical writing among early Muslims as well as their intended audiences. Instead of remaining preoccupied with 19th century European standards of historical writing, such as the search for veracity, he argues that the historians of the early Islamic period worked in continuity with the traditions of Late Antiquity. They were not interested in what “really happened,” but rather, they played with known narratives to make competing claims for contemporary audiences. After a personal anecdote about his own interest in the subject, Haider walks us through the example of the seventh Twelver-Shi’i Imam, Musa al Kadhim, explaining how sources over the centuries have told and retold his biography in keeping with their own theological and political concerns. -
In this episode, Lindsey is joined by Dr. Michael Christopher Low, Assistant Professor of History at Iowa State University, to talk about his new book, Imperial Mecca: Ottoman Arabia and the Indian Ocean Hajj (Columbia University Press, 2020).
Dr. Low discusses the challenges the Ottomans faced in administering the province of Hijaz and the hajj in the rapidly transforming 19th century. He explains how steamships boosted the number of visitors to the Hijaz, carrying pilgrims, passports, contagious diseases, and even the specter of legal imperialism and colonial intervention. As those who traveled to the Hijaz by steamship were primarily from British India, administering the hajj opened up a new space of Ottoman and British Imperial competition in the Indian Ocean and Red Sea. Low casts Arabia as a semiautonomous frontier that the Ottomans struggled to modernize and defend against the encroachment of non-Muslim colonial powers. Conversely, from the 1850s through World War I, British India feared the hajj as a vector of anticolonial subversion. Together, these gave way to an increasingly sophisticated administrative, legal, and medical protectorate over the steamship hajj, threatening to eclipse the Ottoman state’s prized legitimizing claim as protector of Islam's most holy places. -
In this episode, Rustin is joined by Dr. Neda Maghbouleh and Dr. Amy Malek to interview Dr. Narges Bajoghli, Assistant Professor of Middle East Studies at the School of Advanced International Studies, Johns Hopkins University, about her new book, [“Iran Re-Framed: Anxieties of Power in the Islamic Republic.”](http://www.sup.org/books/title/?id=29666)
Dr. Bajoghli talks about how she came to spend ten years in the field as an anthropologist studying members of Iran’s Revolutionary Guard, Ansar Hezbollah, and Basij paramilitary organizations. Through a study of their media production, she explores how these men developed strategies to reach the youth, how they understood their own life trajectories, and tellingly, their deep anxieties about the future and their place in it. She also explains how she takes a “3D look at power in Iran” and its relation to the ethics of fieldwork, particularly among subjects that one disagrees with. This book offers a multilayered story about what it means to be pro-regime inside the Islamic Republic of Iran, challenging what we think we know about those who continue to support its revolution. -
In this episode, Rustin is joined by Dr. Neda Maghbouleh and Dr. Narges Bajoghli to interview Dr. Amy Malek, Assistant Professor of International Studies at the College of Charleston about her latest article, [“Paradoxes of Dual Nationality: Geopolitical Constraints on Multiple Citizenship in the Iranian Diaspora.”](http://muse.jhu.edu/article/745776)
Dr. Malek invites listeners to consider how, despite popular notions that dual citizenship leads to greater mobility and rights, it can sometimes lead to the opposite. After giving us an overview of the concept of dual citizenship and its normalization after the 1990s, she highlights how citizenship scandals have been mobilized for political gain in liberal democracies like Canada, Australia, and the United States. She then turns to significant examples from the Iranian diaspora. Cases like those of Sam Dastyari in Australia and Sahar Nowrouzzadeh in the U.S. show how shifting geopolitical constraints can make dual citizenship a significant liability, particularly for public-facing or politically charged figures. -
In this episode Lindsey interviews Ameem Lutfi, Postdoctoral Research Fellow at the Middle East Institute at the National University of Singapore.
The legacy of the Baloch in Indian Ocean historiography has been confined to their role as soldiers or “mercenaries” of various rulers. Dr. Lutfi’s work is interested in interrogating what it meant for the Baloch to conquer on behalf of rulers without ever ruling those territories themselves. He grapples with the tension between the power that they have as conquerors - precluding them from being categorized as subaltern - and the fact that their history has been primarily passed down through folklore rather than texts. Dr. Lutfi reminds us that in the past, states frequently relied on “mercenary” outsiders to staff their armies, and professional citizen soldiers only became the norm in the last century. He explains that although the Baloch have been perceived by many as a diaspora group, they see themselves as critical parts in the formation of the nation itself. In this vein, their work as soldiers and more recently policemen, has created deep, highly mobile Baloch networks between the shores for centuries. -
In this episode, Rustin and Ali interview Alireza Doostdar, Assistant Professor of Islamic Studies and the Anthropology of Religion at the University of Chicago. He is the author of [The Iranian Metaphysicals: Explorations in Science, Islam, and the Uncanny](https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691163772/the-iranian-metaphysicals), published by Princeton University Press in 2018.
Dr. Doostdar explores the neglected aspects of religion and spirituality in Iran, specifically practices that are often categorized in the realm of superstition, magic, and the occult. The interview opens with a discussion of two different yet entangled traditions that engage with the immaterial world in contemporary Iran: the "strange" or "hidden" sciences ('ulum-e qaribeh or 'ulum-e khafiyeh) that developed in Iran and nearby regions, and the esoteric sciences imported from Europe in the nineteenth century. These two lineages include beliefs and practices such as sorcery, alchemy, astrology, spiritism, mesmerism, and theosophy. Dr. Doostdar explains that these traditions form the foundations of Iranian metaphysics and serves as a testament to the plurality and ambiguity of religious practice in the Islamic Republic. Towards the end of the episode, Dr. Doostdar discusses his own perceived run-in with the unseen world during his fieldwork. -
In this episode, Rustin interviews Golbarg Rekabtalaei, an Assistant Professor of History at Seton Hall University. She is the author of [Iranian Cosmopolitanism: A Cinematic History](https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/iranian-cosmopolitanism/729C8936B157EC6DA38BE4), published by Cambridge University Press in 2019.
Dr. Rekabtalaei traces how the diverse ethnic, linguistic, and religious backgrounds of cinematographers, cinema owners, and cinema goers shaped Iran's urban culture and its citizenry's understanding of modernity. The interview opens with a discussion of the first films produced in Iran: what they looked like, where they were shown, and who was watching them. Then, Dr. Rekabtalaei explains how this cosmopolitanism fed into Iranian national identity and notions of sovereignty in the 1920s and 1930s. The conversation ends with the emergence of both popular cinema (derogatorily labelled "Film Farsi") and alternative cinema (*sinema-ye motevavet*) in the 1950s and 60s.
Episode No. 19
Release Date: 20 July 2020
Recording Location: New York City, NY.
Produced by Rustin Zarkar and Ali Karjoo-Ravary
Audio editing: Nicholas Gunty
Music: Yavaran (Intro: "404 day in heaven" Outro: "Har Chi") -
In this episode, Teren Sevea, an Assistant Professor of South Asian Studies at the University of Pennsylvania, interviews Suvir Kaul, the A. M. Rosenthal Professor of English at the University of Pennsylvania. Dr. Kaul is the the author of the book: [Of Gardens and Graves: Essays on Kashmir](https://www.english.upenn.edu/publications/2015/suvir-kaul/gardens-and-graves), published by Duke University Press in 2017.
Dr. Sevea and Dr. Kaul open the episode with a discussion about the political history of Kashmir's division and occupation, as well as how India's BJP-majority government has recently revoked Jammu and Kashmir's special status, dramatically affecting the everyday lives of people in the region. They then explore the role of Kashmiri poetry as a medium for understanding the decades-long occupation, as well as the resistance to it. Finally, the episode closes with a reading of "A Pastoral," a poem written by the late Srinagar-born poet Agha Shahid 'Ali (1949-2001) in dedication to Dr. Kaul. - Show more
