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Episode Summary
Guests: Zac Curtis (Innovation Lead for NextGen Home at E.ON) & Chris Bernkopf (CEO of Podero)
How do you scale residential Energy as a Service (EaaS) without upfront capital? E.ON and Podero’s 18-home Midlands pilot demonstrates that combining automated zero-upfront multi-asset orchestration (heat pumps, solar PV, batteries, and EV chargers) into a single 10-year fixed tariff wrapper can achieve a +56 Net Promoter Score and stable household comfort. However, scaling this model to a broader target market of 680,000 homes depends entirely on overcoming physical installation bottlenecks, correcting widespread heat pump commissioning errors, and transitioning manufacturer software platforms from standalone thermodynamic efficiency (COP) toward predictive, time-of-use cost-curve steering.
Technical Insights
1. The Financial Architecture of Energy as a Service (EaaS)
The core financial barrier to residential grid decarbonisation is the high upfront capital cost of low-carbon assets.The E.ON NextGen Home pilot addresses this by completely eliminating initial capital expenditure for the consumer. All hardware—including Vaillant heat pumps, SolarEdge solar arrays, and home batteries—is deployed at zero upfront cost.The asset capital paydown is amortised over a 10-year term and embedded directly into a stable, single monthly fixed tariff wrapper.To mitigate risk when a homeowner relocates during the contract term, the asset value is transferred to the property valuation. The incoming buyer inherits an optimised, low-operational-bill home with the initial capital pay-down effectively cleared through the house sale.Following the 18-home proof of concept, E.ON is planning a proactive call for entries to scale up to a representative sample of over 300 homes. This next phase will target specific home archetypes and a diverse mix of consumer behaviours to stress-test the model's mass-market viability.2. Multi-Asset Software Orchestration vs. Standalone COP
Traditional heating controls are built to maximise standalone thermodynamic efficiency (COP).In modern dynamic, time-of-use energy systems where wholesale electricity pricing fluctuates sharply between midday and evening peaks, maximising standalone efficiency is an outdated metric.To generate true running-cost savings, Podero’s platform bypasses physical gateways to communicate via cloud APIs directly with the assets every few minutes.The software engine shifts focus toward predictive cost-curve steering by calculating the exact building energy deficits and the specific thermal deferral capacity (the duration a building envelope can safely delay or store heat load without dropping interior comfort).3. Supply Chain Quality and "Unconscious Incompetence"
The deployment of automated multi-asset steering lives or dies on physical installation quality.A significant portion of the UK installation supply chain suffers from unconscious incompetence—well-meaning installers who lack the specific expertise required for low-carbon engineering.Common field errors, such as incorrect heat pump commissioning, frequently cause internal backup electric immersion heating rods to run continuously, driving up electricity consumption.Additionally, the transition of the UK heating industry into a fragmented landscape of self-employed sole traders complicates the rapid dissemination of best practices. Overcoming this requires a strict, synchronised "waterfall" installation process to handle complex asset interdependencies over a tight five-day window.4. Expanding Beyond Air-to-Water Archetypes
To scale the EaaS framework past the initial pilot phase toward a representative market sample of 300+ homes, utilities must look beyond standard air-to-water heat pump systems.To accommodate tight mid-terraced houses and flats where external space or pipework disruption prevents traditional setups, the pilot is actively evaluating alternative low-carbon technologies.This includes compact, single-room heat pump configurations operating without external units, localised infrared matting, low-electricity radiant solutions, and smart electric boilers dedicated to domestic hot water (DHW) production.Industry Resources & Links
Host Profile: Nathan Gambling, Head of Technical Education at BetaTeach and host of the BetaTalk podcast. Referenced Data Expert: Mick Wall (Sheffield University), field data analyst tracking "The Holy Trinity" of integrated heat pump, battery, and solar performance telemetry.Support the show
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Overview
In this episode, we move beyond the industry’s obsession with nominal appliance ratings to confront a uncomfortable truth: "The Phantom Efficiency." We sit down with Robert Whitney to discuss why the UK heating sector is currently failing its first major test in the transition to electrification. We explore why we continue to chase theoretical efficiency gains on a spec sheet while ignoring the systemic failure of control strategies in the real world. This is a deep dive into the engineering reality of why our heating systems remain stuck in a high-temperature, on-off cycle, and why "effective control" is the missing link between a building’s design and its actual performance.
Critical Discussion Topics
The Myth of Nominal Efficiency: Why the sector prioritises the "sticker" efficiency of an appliance over the reality of how it operates within an integrated system.The "Lobotomised" Boiler: A technical deconstruction of why high-precision modulating boilers are being throttled by outdated switch-live logic, effectively stripping them of the very intelligence we paid for.
Transition or Stagnation? Why the shift to heat pumps is exposing the industry’s deeper reliance on "rule of thumb" design. We discuss why the lack of systemic control knowledge is one of the greatest barriers to decarbonisation.
The Path to Mastery:Why "lifelong learning" and peer-to-peer knowledge sharing—as championed by the BetaTeach ethos—are the only ways to move from phantom efficiency to verifiable performance.
Key Technical Takeaways
Beyond the Appliance: Moving the industry narrative from "the boiler is efficient" to "the heating system is optimised."The Physics of Delta T: Robert clarifies why low-temperature flow are not just "nice to haves" but fundamental requirements for both condensing boilers and heat pumps.
Data as the Antidote: How community-driven data initiatives (like OpenEnergyMonitor) are providing the hard evidence needed to challenge institutional inertia.
About Our Guest
Robert Whitney is an independent consultant and former technical leader in the global controls manufacturing sector. With a unique background spanning legacy controls and modern startups, he brings a "no-punches-pulled" perspective on the engineering realities of our current transition.
Resources
Read the latest newsletter: The Phantom Efficiency: Why Boiler Control Strategy Has Become the First Real Test
Our thanks to the guild patrons for their continued support: CastRads, Primary Pro, UK Radiators, Payaca, Esby, and Woolsey's Renewables Centre.Support the show
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Ryan Jude of the Green Finance Institute (GFI) discusses how to mobilise capital for the UK's green home revolution.
Overview
In this episode, Nathan is joined by Ryan Jude, Programme Director at the Green Finance Institute (GFI) and former Cabinet Member for Climate in Westminster. While Nathan admits his expertise lies in the "weeds" of heat pump engineering rather than the world of high finance, the two find common ground in the necessity of making low-carbon technology the "rational economic choice" for the UK public.
From the influence of legendary guitarists like Mark Knopfler and Dave Gilmour to the intricacies of Property Linked Finance (PLF), this conversation bridges the gap between technical installation and the financial mechanisms required to scale the UK’s transition to net zero.
Property Background & The Financial Challenge
The UK heating sector is currently at a crossroads. While the "want" for green upgrades is increasing due to volatile international energy markets, the "hassle factor" and upfront costs remains a significant barrier for the average homeowner.
Ryan explains that "Green Finance" is not a separate entity, but rather a "tinge" on existing financial products—mortgages, unsecured loans, and infrastructure investments—designed to incentivise sustainable upgrades. The goal is a "Green Economy" where the distinction between green and traditional finance eventually disappears.
Key Discussion Points & Innovations
The Evolution of Green Mortgages: Since 2019, the market has expanded from just four niche products to over 93 today, with an estimated £14 billion annually now flowing through green mortgage products.Property Linked Finance (PLF): Ryan introduces the concept of lending against the land rather than the individual. Based on the "PACE" model in the US, PLF allows the debt to stay with the property, lowering risk for lenders and ensuring the liability passes to the next owner if the current resident moves.The "Hassle Factor" vs. Interest Rates: Evidence from Scotland suggests that a 0% interest rate isn't always the primary driver for consumers. Trust, ease of the customer journey, and the "hassle" of installation are equally critical in determining uptake.The Strategic Partnership: GFI is currently co-running a partnership with the government’s Warm Homes Plan, involving major high-street lenders like Barclays, NatWest, and HSBC to design accessible, low-interest, government-backed loans.Energy as an Asset: Discussion on how the National Energy System Operator (NESO) and demand flexibility schemes are turning heat pumps, solar PV, and batteries into assets that can actually reduce monthly outgoings through smart usage.Performance & Evidence
The impact of current geopolitical events, such as the closure of the Strait of Hormuz, has led to a measurable surge in consumer demand.
Solar PV: Requests to major suppliers like Octopus and EDF have increased by over 50%.Electric Vehicles: EV demand has mirrored this uptick, as the cost-per-mile (approx. 8p at home vs. 18p at the pump) makes them the cheaper long-term choice.Scale: Over 27,000 solar installations were recorded in March 2026 alone—the highest in over a decade.Closing Reflection
The transition to a low-carbon home is no longer just a moral choice; it is becoming a financial necessity. As Ryan notes, success will be achieved when the average consumer wakes up wanting the technology not because it is "green," but because it is the smartest way to protect their household from global energy volatility.
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The UK heat pump sector is entering a new phase. In this episode, we speak with senior leaders from the newly formed Association, created by merging three major industry bodies (Ground Sorce Heat Pump Association, Heat Pump Federation and Heat Pump Association) into a single, unified voice: The Heat Pump Association UK
We explore why this merger happened, what it means for installers, manufacturers, and homeowners, and whether heat pumps are finally ready to scale across the UK. From policy challenges to consumer misconceptions, this conversation breaks down the real barriers in the race to decarbonise heating.
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Nathan chats to his friend Ricky from Thoroughflush about water quality in UK heating systems. Ricky leads the way in helping domestic heating engineers prevent corrosion in their boiler and heat pump wet heating systems.
As well as discussing the VDI 2035 method of keeping heating systems clean they two chat about Ricky's own heat pump installation.
It's a bit similar to Nesta's 'Start at Home' scheme.
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This episode of Betatalk features Will Rivers, associate director of residential decarbonisation at the Carbon Trust and Madeleine Gabriel, Sustainable Futures Mission Director at Nesta.
We discuss the Department of Energy Security and Net Zero's funded Heat Pump Ready Programme which was part of the Net Zero Portfolio (NZIP) and ran from 2021-2025.
The collaboration, evaluation and knowledge of this programme was managed by Carbon Trust who used the BetaTalk podcast to help share information.
Heat Pump Ready 2 will start soon and Nathan's guests talk about the kind of innovation we might see.
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In this episode of BetaTalk, Nathan sits down with industry veteran Graham Hendra to unpick the complexities and misconceptions currently stalling the UK’s heat pump rollout. While much of the national conversation is bogged down in rigid technical defaults and confusing marketing jargon, this discussion focuses on the practical realities of machine design, the untapped potential of air to air systems, and why the industry must change how it communicates with the general public.
Key Discussion Points:
The Engineering Reality at Haier Graham shares his journey from a refrigeration engineer to his current role at Haier, the major Chinese electronics manufacturer and a global leader in heat pump production. He discusses the unique challenge of building a better machine from the ground up, moving past the limitations of current units that simply are not good enough for the demands of the modern energy transition.
Debunking the "Fridge in Reverse" Myth A deep dive into the industry’s communication problem. Both Nathan and Graham offer a clear rejection of the "fridge in reverse" analogy often used by journalists and salespeople. They argue it is a nonsensical description that confuses consumers. Instead, they frame a heat pump as a machine where the engineer is simply interested in the hot bit rather than the cold bit of the same refrigeration cycle.
The Strategic Case for Air to Air Heat Pumps Drawing on Graham’s extensive background, there is a strong emphasis on air to air heat pumps as a secret weapon for decarbonisation. They explain why these systems are ideal for specific use cases, such as conservatories, bedrooms, or for families needing to heat a single room quickly and affordably, rather than forcing a one size fits all wet system on every property.
Installation Nuance and Electrical Standards The conversation highlights the differences in installation quality and regulation. Graham contrasts a high end, quiet installation featuring hidden pipework against minimal budget options that compromise aesthetics. He also addresses the technical nuance behind why UK regulations require fixed appliances to be hardwired, adding cost and requiring a qualified electrician compared to simpler plug in models seen on the continent.
Live at The Heat Pump Show, Newark A look ahead to The Heat Pump Show at Newark on April 22nd. Nathan will be hosting a panel featuring Graham, where they will dive deeper into the potential for air to air systems within national decarbonisation strategies and the specific sizing challenges that engineers face in the field.
Thanks to the Patrons of the Guild of Master Heat Engineers who help make these podcasts possible. For more technical deep dives visit betateach.co.uk.
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This episode discusses in lay terms the Position Paper which you can find on the betateach website and you can also download here
I speak to lots of Engineers who have apprentices at college who are not happy with the college system.
The Betateach Position Paper argues for testing a new way of doing things.
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In this episode of BetaTalk, Nathan welcomes back engineer and coder James Twallin to discuss the technical nuances of the UK’s energy transition. While industry debates are often binary, this conversation focuses on objective data regarding gas infrastructure, the physics of high mass heritage buildings, and the importance of real world boiler monitoring for hydronic heat pump success.
Key Topics Discussed:
The "Invisible" Gas Leak Problem: James reveals his research into the UK’s gas network. He explains how current energy policy and EPC ratings often ignore upstream methane leaks. Using Freedom of Information data, he highlights the prevalence of leaks in ancient cast iron mains featuring 19th century archaeological engineering.Decarbonising Heritage Buildings: A deep dive into a 200 year old stone church project. James explains why steady state modelling fails in these environments and how a physics based approach allowed for a successful, intermittent air to air heat pump installation by leveraging the building’s thermal mass.Optimising Hydronic Transitions: Nathan and James discuss a new monitoring device designed to track existing boiler behaviour. By gathering data on flow temperatures and cycling, engineers can create a more accurate blueprint for future heat pump performance.Technical Correction During the recording, a Bosch study involving 4,000 units was discussed. While mentioned as a heat pump survey in the audio, Nathan would like to clarify that the study actually monitored 4,000 gas boilers.
Thanks to the Patrons of the Guild of Master Heat Engineers who help make these podcasts possible
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Primary Expert: Mick Wall (IT Specialist, University of Sheffield & Founder of Energy Stats UK)
Host: Nathan Gambling (Beta Talk Podcast and Betateach Newsletter)
Core Topics: Heat Loss Accuracy, Weather Compensation vs. Room Influence, Smart Tariffs (Octopus Energy).
Executive Summary (TL;DR)
Standard MCS heat loss calculations often overestimate ventilation losses in older homes by up to 300%. Expert consumer Mick Wall demonstrates that real-world air changes in a 1930s semi-detached house are closer to 0.5 ACH (Air Changes per Hour) rather than the CIBSE default of 1.5–3.0 ACH. This episode explores how to verify heat loss using Pulse Tests and CO2 Decay to prevent heat pump oversizing.
1. Challenging MCS Heat Loss Defaults
Standard industry calculations often rely on static building guides that fail to account for the actual "tightness" of 20th-century builds.
The Problem: Default values from CIBSE and MCS result in oversized heat pumps, leading to short-cycling and reduced efficiency.
The Evidence: Mick Wall utilises three distinct methodologies to validate air change rates:
Pressure Testing: Utilising the Build Test Solutions Pulse kit for rapid air evacuation measurement.
CO2 Decay Monitoring: Deploying Purrmetrix sensors to track gas dissipation over 7 days.
Reverse Modeling: Matching 4 years of Open Energy Monitor data against Spruce fabric loss models.
2. Comfort Dynamics: Weather Compensation vs. Room Influence
While "pure" weather compensation (adjusting flow temperature based on outdoor air) is better than on/off control, it often lacks the "aggression" needed for rapid recovery.
Pure Weather Comp: Best for steady-state efficiency but may fail during sudden internal temperature drops.
Room Influence: Wall advocates for this approach and currently uses his Vaillant control with Havenwise which is an optimiser.
Key Takeaway: Insulation (e.g., bay window upgrades) provides "unmeasurable comfort" by eliminating drafts, even when the fabric watt-saving is minimal.
3. Optimising the "Elephant in the Room": Smart Tariffs
A high-quality heat pump installation must perform efficiently regardless of the tariff. However, leveraging the Octopus Energy Kraken platform provides significant cost advantages.
Agile vs. Cozy Tariffs: Understanding how to shift loads without sacrificing comfort.
The Risk: Relying on cheap overnight electricity to "mask" a poorly designed, low-efficiency system.
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In this episode, Nathan sits down with economist Ben Watts, the creator of the real-time energy dashboard at kilowatts.io. They explore the hidden "engine room" of the UK’s electricity system, the high-stakes market where power is traded in 30-minute blocks.
Ben explains why a single line on the map (the B6 Boundary) is costing consumers over £1 billion a year and how technology like heat pumps and EVs are moving from being "loads" to "assets" that help keep the grid balanced.
Key Jargon Buster: The Grid Boundaries
To help listeners follow the conversation, here is a quick guide to the "pinch points" Ben mentions:
B6 Boundary: The most critical bottleneck in the UK. It runs along the Scottish-English border.B4 Boundary: A northern bottleneck separating the Scottish Highlands from the Central Belt.The "4.5 GW" Limit: The onshore overhead cables at B6 can securely handle about 4.5 GW. When combined with the Western HVDC subsea link (2.2 GW), the total limit is roughly 6.7 GW.Wind Curtailment: When there is more wind in Scotland than the B6 "pipes" can carry, NESO pays wind farms to stop generating while paying gas plants in the South to turn on.Keywords & Themes
kilowatts.io: Ben’s dashboard for visualising real-time grid data.NESO: The National Energy System Operator (the new name for the system operator in 2026).CCGT Maintenance: Why demineralised water is essential for the steam turbines in gas power plants.Flexibility Assets: Using heat pumps as "virtual power plants" to respond to grid signals at 50Hz.Support the show
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In this episode of BetaTalk, I talk about a subject I am deeply passionate about marketing within the UK heating sector.
The UK has the most competitive heating market in Europe, with the highest boiler sales across the continent. In such a competitive environment, marketing plays an essential role. I reflect on how, at times, marketing messages can move away from fundamental heating science. This is not about blame or intent, but about acknowledging how commercial pressure and fast-moving narratives can influence communication.
As scrutiny of the sector continues to increase from regulators, consumer bodies, and groups examining greenwashing, these gaps are becoming more noticeable. I talk about how this scrutiny is shaping conversations across the industry, including within marketing teams and trade bodies, where there can be tension between commercial expectations and technical accuracy.
I also share why I speak about my grandfather so often on this podcast, and how his influence shaped my views on engineering, responsibility, and honesty in how we communicate technical information.
This episode is a reflective discussion about marketing, science, and integrity, and how the heating industry can continue to communicate with clarity in an increasingly examined environment.Support the show
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BetaTalk Podcast Show Notes: Air-to-Air Heat Pump Pioneering with John
In this landmark episode of BetaTalk, the host sits down with John Ewbank to discuss his pioneering and invaluable research into the domestic application of Air-to-Air Heat Pumps (A2A HPs).
This conversation marks a potentially historical inflection point for the UK heating sector, as Ewbank’s practical, data-driven work pushes the boundaries of efficient home heating.
🔬 The Pioneers of UK Heating
The episode highlights a crucial lineage of highly skilled, 'geeky' homeowners and engineers who have collectively advanced the understanding and adoption of low-carbon domestic heating in the UK. Ewbank’s work stands alongside the incredible efforts of figures such as:
Mick WallJohn CantorTrystan LeeGlyn HudsonThese individuals have performed & shared ground-breaking real-world research, often filling gaps left by industry.
💡 Collaboration with Nesta
A significant element of the discussion is John Ewbank's collaboration with Nesta, the UK's innovation foundation and think tank.
The host expresses great satisfaction that Nesta is engaging directly with practitioners and heating engineers like Ewbank. Their approach is highlighted as being uniquely effective among Third Sector entities in actively supporting and utilizing the crucial data generated by this community of independent researchers.
This is a vital episode for anyone interested in heat pumps, energy efficiency, and the future of UK home heating. Dive into the conversation, share it widely, and join the discussion around this incredible, pioneering work!
https://www.youtube.com/@TimAndKatsGreenWalk Have Toshiba Haori set up - Does interesting experiments.
https://x.com/timothymortimer Daikin Stylish installed very happy
https://x.com/jimmybb - Daikin Stylish installed very happy
https://www.youtube.com/@EVPuzzle has many videos on his air to air system
https://www.youtube.com/@MrEV - other perspective installed has mixed feelings, but thinks was system design. Units were not optimally placed or sized
My initial install & experience
https://johnewbank.co.uk/what-is-the-cheapest-way-to-heat-your-home/
My experience when I lived with it for a bit.
https://johnewbank.co.uk/living-with-an-air-to-air-heat-pump-installation-and-testing-notes/
COP calculations
https://johnewbank.co.uk/airtoairmonitoring/Guild Patrons
PrimaryPro CastRads UK Radiators Renewables Centre
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This week on BetaTalk, we're doing something truly special: the FIRST EVER exclusive interview with EDF Heat Pumps about their groundbreaking new "Express" initiative.
EDF's new "Express" initiative is hitting the accelerator, promising faster, smoother heat pump deployments that are directly comparable to the cost of a boiler install.
We sit down with Clay Brown from EDF Heat Pumps behind to unpack:
What "Express" really means for installers and homeowners.How they're streamlining the process from survey to switch-on.The vision behind this bold step for #RenewableEnergy.Sign up to the BetaTeach newsletter to view heat pump installations from engineers in the Guild of Master Heat Engineers
GUILD PATRONS:
Primary Pro
Wolseley Renewables Centre
Castrads
UK Radiators
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In this episode Nathan chats to two of the Guild Patrons, Rob Nezard from UK Radiators and Nick Baylis from Castrads about the issue of radiators being sold in the UK with overstated power outputs.
Rob and Nick have been working with the Manufacturers Association of Radiators and Convectors (MARC) and now have the help of the Government body: Office for Product Safety and Standards (OPSS), the National Regulator for construction products, enforcing the Construction Product Regulations. This level of government involvement is a significant development, and it validates the nearly nine-year campaign for transparency and accurate performance claims across the radiator and convector sector
Meet the Guild Patrons
Guild Patrons help support the Guild of Master Heat Engineers disseminate quality information about current good practice. Sign up to the Newsletter to see case studies from the Masters
Guild Patrons are:
Primary Pro
Renewable Centre
Castrads
UK Radiators
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Welcome back to the BetaTalk podcast! I'm thrilled to be joined by Adam Chapman of Heat Geek for a deep dive into the buzz-generating Zero Disrupt initiative. In this episode, Adam shares the full story behind this new heat pump installation program, explaining how it aims to solve critical industry challenges, including improving affordability for consumers and giving homeowners greater choice on system efficiency. If you're keen to understand the strategy and hear what this bold move means for the evolving industry, this is a must-listen episode.
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This episode of Betatalk features a detailed examination of a bespoke heat pump heating system designed by engineers within the Guild of Master Heat Engineers. We speak with Mark Denman of Custom Renewables and Alex Hilton, the homeowner and a wonderful guest who provides valuable insight into sustainability.
The engineers are leading heat geeks in the field, and this installation served as an excellent peer-to-peer learning opportunity for the community.
We also dedicate time to discussing Zero Disrupt, a new initiative from Heat Geek.
This heat pump podcast episode discusses the first case study on the BetaTeach website. Please click the Betateach link to view images and comprehensive details about the installation.
BetaTeach.co.uk
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Nathan is joined by Jonathan Siviter at Thermoelectric Conversion Systems (TCS), Ren Kang at Mixergy and Andreas Fechs at Kensa to discuss how innovation through the Heat Pump Ready projects has improved heat pump technology, the impact this could have on the market, and what future innovation is needed
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Nathan is joined by Zachary Gill at Energiesprong and Matthew Boyes at Hometree Finance to discuss the different innovative approaches that have been developed by Heat Pump Ready projects, the key lessons from the programme about finance models to support heat pump deployment and the insights into making finance affordable and attractive for consumers.
Disclaimer:
All the views expressed in this episode do not represent the views of the Government or any of their departments.
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Nathan is joined by Christopher Taylor at Vital Energy, Richard Barwick at RJ Barwick and Russell Murchie at Nusku to discuss how innovation through the Heat Pump Ready projects has improved heat pump technology and the ease of installation of heat pumps in difficult to decarbonise homes, the impact this could have on the market, and what future innovation is still needed.
NEWS FLASH
The Guild of Master Heat Engineers is coming. Read more here and sign up to the newsletter
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