Episodes
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Episode 87: In this episode, Shane Meyer-Holt joins me for the final episode of 2023. This episode is an unplanned departure from our series on experience and comes after an unexpected hiatus with the podcast too. In this personal, raw, and wandering conversation, we talk through why we’ve not had an episode out in the past couple of months amidst the complexity of life and the presence of suffering and profound challenge. We also talk through the demands of hustle culture and how we care for each other in a world shaped by the internalised social and economic assumptions of what matters. And we use this to springboard into a conversation about our friendship, about how Shane and I have been present to one another through various crises and contrasting experiences of pain. This then connects to how vulnerability and empathy have shaped both the contours of our friendship, as well as becoming the central paradigm for our theology and spirituality.
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Episode 86: In this conversation, Shane and I discuss the paradigms for experiencing God we used to hold and the theological shape of those paradigms. This led to a lot of energy being expended in trying to create the right conditions for 'experience', and an unspoken set of 'signs' that these experiences were being had - something that created a set of problems that we both found problematic in our life and spirituality. We then explore the ways we think about God now, how we see the God-world relationship, and what this means for how we may or may not experience the divine in the present. Finally, we undo some of this good work by throwing a spanner in the works - which means we'll need a follow-up episode to deal with all of that!
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Missing episodes?
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Episode 85: Olivia Jackson is the researcher and author of the recently published book, "(Un)Certain: A Collective Memoir of Deconstructing Faith". In this book, Olivia draws together insights and themes from more than 140 interviews of people from around the world whose Christian faith has gone through a process of deconstruction. The range of experiences, stories and reflections from "regular people" (i.e. people without large churches, book deals, social media followings, or other forms of power) offers a sense of solidarity for those who may have felt isolated, confused and alone or simply curious about their own experience and how it is or is not reflected in the experiences of others. Olivia is able to draw out a number of themes from the wide range of stories, and reflect on the commonalities (among the many differences). In this conversation we talk about her own journey of faith, the pain of deconstruction and the unravelling of certainty, the variety of causes for a shifting faith, and reflect on what this can offer those who have experienced (or are experiencing) a process of deconstruction, or who want to understand the experiences of those who have.
You can find Olivia's book here.
Contact In the Shift: [email protected]
Support In the Shift: www.patreon.com/intheshift
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Episode 84: In this second conversation on the complicated world of 'experiencing God', we explore the ways in which all experience is mediated, and so the meaning is thereby a matter (to some degree) of interpretation. We examine the role that suggestibility plays in certain forms of experience, and chat about the unhelpful ideas of 'spiritual hunger' or 'desperation/expectation' as keys to divine presence, and whether particular songs are 'anointed'. We also reflect on the ways we think about the relationship between God and us/world. Does God withhold divine presence and love for some kind of 'greater good', and if so, what does this say about God?
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Episode 83: In this conversation with Shane Meyer-Holt we dive into the complicated world of understanding experiences of God. For some, particular kinds of experiences with God are central to their spirituality, to feelings of closeness with God, to a sense of meaning and purpose. And yet for others, the attempt to impose certain forms of experience have resulted in harm and even trauma. Some have never 'felt' what they've been told they're supposed to feel, have never sensed God in the way that those around them are apparently sensing God. Does this mean its all pretence, or am I simply being ignored by God?
For many, this just ends up as a very confusing jumble - we might have had meaningful experiences but no longer know what to make of them, or we may have had a mixture of positive and negative experiences and now we're left wondering if any of it was real at all. So this episode is the beginning of a series of conversations trying to unpick all of this and see if we can make some sense of it.
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Episode 82: Dr Karen O'Donnell is a specialist in theology and trauma. In this conversation we explore the nature of trauma and, in particular, we reflect on spiritual trauma and abuse and the ruptures it can cause to the embodied person. The field of trauma theology seeks to take the experience of trauma as a starting point for theological reflection - both in terms of critiquing the ways in which theological beliefs can cause harm, and also in terms of constructing theologies that can create room for what she calls 'post-traumatic remaking'. This conversation moves from grappling with the large scope of these ideas, to talking about the personal and very real experiences of trauma and how they impact us. Karen shares from her own experiences of grief and loss as we discuss how the theology, practices, prayers and worship of the church can either be a contributor toward harm (or even the cause of), or can help cultivate safe and nurturing communities within which we are able to rebuild a new self.
Please note as a trigger warning, this conversation includes references to various causes of trauma, including pregnancy loss, sexual assault and abuse, violence and spiritual abuse.
Karen is the author of several publications including Broken Bodies: The Eucharist, Mary and the Body in Trauma Theology and The Dark Womb: Re-Conceiving Theology Through Reproductive Loss. You can find her on twitter: @kmrodonnell
Get in touch with In the Shift via email: [email protected]
Support In the Shift: www.patreon.com/intheshift
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Episode 81: Marc Fennell is the force behind the new SBS documentary, "The Kingdom". It is a doco that explores the rise and fall of Hillsong Church in Australia (and around the globe), but that also asks harder and more nuanced questions of the wider pentecostal megachurch systems and structures that have grown so rapidly in recent decades. This form of Christianity clearly appeals so deeply to so many, and yet can also grow on the back of coercion and abuse of power that often leads to burn out, spiritual trauma, and to many thousands of unsaid, unheard stories of pain, dislocation and harm. In this conversation we talk with Marc about his approach and hopes for the doco, about his own story of growing up in these kinds of churches, the good, the bad, the ugly... and the kinds of hard questions that the new emerging churches should be asking of themselves (and that participants should be asking) if there is going to be a healthier future ahead.
You can get in touch: [email protected]
Support: www.patreon.com/intheshift
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Episode 80: This is a first for In the Shift - a reissue of an older conversation! But in light of more stories, documentaries, investigations and interrogations of the megachurch story here in NZ, Australia and across the world in recent months, we thought it might be helpful to reissue the first podcast episode on our megachurch series - originally aired as Episode 55 in April 2022. Shane and I began talking about this because we both had history in these spaces, and there were stories hitting the mainstream about coercion, manipulation, burnout, abuse of power and just a litany of stories of people's lives being messed up through their experience in these kinds of spaces. In particular, here in New Zealand we were responding in real time to the stories from journalist David Farrier - but we also knew that the stories he was telling were not limited to one specific context, but were endemic across a whole stream of the contemporary church movement. So we began what was going to be a short series of conversations about this, and then it turned into a rather long series of conversations about all of this. So if you're new to In the Shift and you find this convo helpful, you can wind back to episode 56 and go with us on the journey. Here's the original blurb:
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This episode is the first in a series of conversations between myself and Shane Meyer-Holt (who you may remember from way back in episode 3) as we respond to some of the deeply concerning stories emerging from megachurches in recent weeks and months. There are common themes found in the experiences of those who have suffered under the weight of pressure, expectation, bullying, harassment and abuse of power within these systems.
Shane and I have been talking about this for more than a decade, having met while in the process of trying to extricate ourselves from the problematic church structures we had been deeply immersed in since our teenage years. Since then we have both explored very different ways of engaging in faith communities and ‘leadership’. But we have also continued to reflect on those things that make megachurches (or those following that model) so potent and effective. Effective at both the glories of success and growth but also at leaving a trail of pain and trauma - while managing to keep that suffering largely silent and under the radar (until now).
This is the beginning of our processing ‘out loud’ on these issues, dealing with themes that have in many ways been woven through the In the Shift podcast from the very beginning. If you want to get in touch to offer comment, question, story, insight, or to seek a bit of solidarity and support, you can get in touch with Shane and I via: [email protected]
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Episode 79: Amanda Pilbrow works in the space of helping support LGBTQIA+ folk in the church, as well as working with churches, pastors, ministry leaders and others to go on the journey to become fully affirming of queer folk in the church. She is the facilitator of the website www.alreadyenough.co.nz which is a sorting house for a vast range of resources in relation to this conversation. In this episode we talk about her journey as a young woman growing up within very conservative traditionalist church systems. We discuss the exclusion of women from ministry and leadership, and the impact this had on her sense of self. And we explore how her journey of processing through this is connected to the ongoing passion she has for the church to change its stance on queer inclusion. Her postgrad research focused on hearing the experiences of LGB Christians in New Zealand, and has deeply informed the way she approaches these conversations.
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Episode 78: This episode is a live recording from an event called "Reframing Easter" held in March of this year. Here I talk through my understanding of how the Easter story fits within the wider historical, cultural, political and religious context of its day. The imperial power of Rome, the backdrop of suffering for the Jewish people, religious leadership and belief being used in the jostling for power, status and control, and the tense and very real potential for a violent revolution. Jesus lives and dies in the midst of this moment - and the meaning of Easter can only really be grappled with in light of what's going on here. Unpacking this story can then help us to make sense of how all of this might still speak to us in the present moment. It helps us to reframe ideas of Jesus' death as "atonement for sin", and to reimagine what "salvation" looks like in contrast to the power, violence and abuse of harmful systems, beliefs and practices.
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Episode 77: One of the common themes of our recent conversations has been how churches have been able to co-opt Christian language and ideas and use them to enforce power, to gaslight victims, and to justify their actions as God-approved. This can often leave victims feeling confused, isolated and ashamed. This episode is a theological exploration of how the language of sin/repentance and blessing/empowerment is used in the biblical narrative in the almost entirely opposite direction to how we see it used in the contemporary church. In the biblical narrative, confrontation of sinners and calls to repentance are directed to those people in positions of power who are abusing that power. And the language of empowerment/blessing is directed at those who have been harmed, marginalised, abused and mistreated. Ironically (and sadly) in the church, those with power often claim the language of empowerment and blessing, and the language of sin/repentance is directed at those who are already vulnerable. This episode tracks the competing imperial and prophetic trajectories of the biblical story, and how the words of Jesus (and Paul) must be understood within this wider context.
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Episode 76: Shane Meyer-Holt returns to the podcast, and this time he brings his church notebook from the nineties! One of the things we’ve heard a lot over the past year is “how can people stay in these toxic communities for so long?” or even more troubling can be the question “why did I stay so long?”. We explore an old sermon by a charismatic American preacher we both heard when we were young and use it as a case study in how religious language can be used to condition people to a coercive system. This sermon - titled “Sons and Servants” - is a perfect microcosm of the journey over time for many folks; from a seemingly admirable desire to “do something for God”, through to a loss of boundaries, a dissolving of the self and an internalisation of authoritative voices that become the internal critic that we carry with us everywhere.
Contact: [email protected]
Support: www.patreon.com/intheshift
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Episode 75: In the first episode of 2023, I (Michael) spend some time reflecting on the stories of the past year but in particular on the most recently published article by journalist David Farrier about church harm and toxicity in more NZ megachurches - a story that prominently features the church in which I spent around 13 years of my life - both as a participant, and also on staff for around 8 years. In this episode I unpack as honestly as I can the feelings that come up in this whole conversation, about what it feels like to speak publicly about a community that I once helped to build, about the long-term relational impact, and about why I think we need to hold people and communities/systems to account - especially when they are closer to us. All of this feeds into some reflections on why it continues to be so muddled and conflicted for so many people, why it's so hard for members to leave and/or move on, and why it's the inability to hear, empathise, listen and learn that become the most problematic features of these organisations.
Get in touch via email: [email protected]
Support via Patreon: www.patreon.com/intheshift
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Episode 74: Carly Lahana and Shane Meyer-Holt are back for another round of Q & A! In this episode we respond to a range of listener questions on faith deconstruction, personal spirituality, church structures and systems, and some practical questions about what is possible in church life. These questions include:
What do you do when all your beliefs start to unravel?How not to become "bitter"?What are some blind spots in the deconstructing community?Why are we still Christian? (why not just leave it all behind?)Do we still need church?How does the church move forward when it is overwhelmingly led by old white men?How is talk about money abused in the church, and is tithing biblical?Is there still room for quality, creativity, music and production in the church? -
Episode 73: Dr Hillary McBride is a therapist, researcher, writer and speaker who brings a remarkable combination of expertise, insight and empathy to this conversation about spiritual trauma. We talk about why spiritual trauma is so potent, how it is experienced and held in our bodies, how negative religious attitudes toward our bodies can stifle our awareness of what needs to change and of the healing we may need, and how to move toward healing and re-integration. Hillary's most recent book is titled "The Wisdom of Your Body: Finding Healing, Wholeness, and Connection through Embodied Living" and is a highly recommended read for those navigating pain and trauma, as well for all of those seeking a more embodied and connected life.
You can find Hillary at: https://hillarylmcbride.com/
Get in touch with In the Shift: [email protected]
Support In the Shift: www.patreon.com/intheshift
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Episode 72: David Farrier is a journalist, documentary maker, podcaster, and the author of online newsletter Webworm. Throughout 2022, David’s investigative work on Arise Church - one of New Zealand’s largest megachurches - brought to light a toxic culture that included numerous allegations of burn out, abuse of power, toxicity and the covering up of claims of sexual harassment and assault. David’s work also opened up a larger public conversation about megachurches (and toxic church cultures in general), and the narcissism, ego and systemic abuse of power that is often present in these spaces.
In this conversation we talk with David about his own experience of Christianity as a child and young adult, why he started Webworm, the attention to bullies and narcissists in so much of his work, and why he focused in on a New Zealand megachurch. We talk through the unfolding of this story, the perspective he brings as an outsider to megachurch culture, and how hard it seems to be to get people within the church to take these claims seriously.
You can subscribe to David’s newsletter at www.webworm.co
Email us: [email protected]
Support In the Shift: www.patreon.com/intheshift
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Episode 71: This is the 2nd part of a conversation with Meg Cowan - sex and relationships coach. In this episode we talk about understanding our own sexuality, and how to find healthy ways of moving forward beyond the binaries of purity culture. We discuss the five circles of sexuality - intimacy, identity, sensuality, health & reproduction, and sexualisation. And we talk through some of the big issues in processing through and healing from purity culture, including attachments and soul ties, finding agency, cultivating a new sexual ethic, getting connected to our embodiment, somatics as a pathway to healing, and finding health in our relationships.
You can find Meg's work at www.megcowan.com or follow her on instagram.
Get in touch with In the Shift: [email protected]
Support In the Shift: www.patreon.com/intheshift
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Episode 70: Meg Cowan is a sex and relationships coach who specialises in helping people process through the impact of purity culture. In this conversation we talk about how purity culture (understood as the cultural movement in Evangelical/Pentecostal Christianity that emerges in reaction to the rapid social and moral changes that took place in the 1960s and 1970s) has impacted views on and experiences of sex, embodiment and relationships in the church. We discuss the ways in which men and women have experienced this differently, and the disproportionate impact of purity culture on women in particular. We dive into the detail on gender norms, sexual desire, the nature of arousal, power imbalances between men and women, the orgasm gap, and debunk some of the myths of purity culture. This is the first part of two conversations with Meg - and in an upcoming episode we talk about how to heal and move forward from purity culture and its impact on sex and relationships. [see below for some resource recommendations from Meg]
Get in touch via email: [email protected]
You can find Meg at: https://www.megcowan.com/ including info about her 'Shame Free Sex' course.
Recommended Resources from Meg:
Debunking the myth that men are more visual than women with regards to sex. Meta Analysis: https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1904975116BOOK MENTIONS> Pure, by Linda Kay Klein
Pure: Inside the Evangelical Movement that Shamed a Generation of Young Women and How I Broke Freehttps://lindakayklein.com/pure/
> The Great Sex Rescue, by Sheila Wray Gregorie.
If you identify as a Christian, this is one of the better books out there on changing the narrative about sex and christian marriage. https://baremarriage.com/great-sex-rescue/> Come as you are, by Emily Nagowski
Essential reading on how desire and arousal actually work. https://www.emilynagoski.com/homeLove and Respect (on the Do NOT read list!) A lot of the teaching around these concepts of Love and Respect is spread in church, due to the bestselling (but truly terrible) book on Christian Marriage called ‘Love and Respect’ by Emerson Eggerich. Read more about why it’s so awful on Sheila Wray Gregoire’s platforms: https://baremarriage.com/2019/01/love-and-respect-why-unconditional-respect-cant-work/
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Episode 69: Katelyn Beaty is the author of the recently published book “Celebrities for Jesus: How Personas, Platforms and Profits are Hurting the Church”. We talk here about the nature of celebrity vs fame, and how celebrity pastors and ministers have come to take centre stage in the Evangelical/Pentecostal church. As celebrity pastors have flourished, their churches have become mirrors for their own ego. This leads to numerous problems including a lack of accountability, the abuse of power, the pursuit of growth and brand at all costs, and has distorted the central themes of the Christian message. We finish this conversation by reflecting on how Jesus invites us to resist the allure of power and status, a challenge that is central to the Christian faith itself.
Follow Katelyn's work at https://www.katelynbeaty.com/
Get in touch: [email protected]
Support In the Shift: www.patreon.com/intheshift
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Episode 68: In this episode I'm joined by Jess Holdaway (who you may remember from ep 61) and also by Shalomy Sathiyaraj as we talk about their experience as young women within the megachurch space. We discuss the idealised characteristics of a "Christian woman", the dynamics of gender and power, the impact of purity culture, and the way in which hyper-feminine and hyper-masculine constructs lead to such unhealthy and harmful consequences. Shalomy also speaks to her experience as a young woman of colour in that space, including the overt and subtle forms of racism that are so often embedded within these institutions. It is a potent and important conversation for all those wrestling with the things that need to change in the church.
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