Episodes
-
July 15, 2026The Remarkable Benefits of Diversity
Even if you aren’t ideologically opposed to segregation in schools, research shows that it doesn’t make sense for practical reasons — and that goes not only for segregation by race but also segregation by gender, ability, or age. What generally proves beneficial, from preschool to college, are heterogeneous environments — diverse schools and, equally important, diverse classrooms. But because proximity doesn’t guarantee affection, the optimal arrangement also provides support for interdependence: guided heterogeneity in which learning is structured to promote shared goals and perspective taking.
RESOURCES
For citations to the research mentioned in this episode, please see “Heterogenius,” the essay on which it’s based.
Please click the button below to donate.
If you donât see a button, please go to this page (https://coff.ee/kohnszone).Donate
PRODUCTION SUPPORT: Ultraviolet Audio
ART: Abi Kohn -
July 1, 2026Raising Reflective Rebels
We’re faced with a silent epidemic of obedience, a pervasive failure to become outraged by outrageous things. Adults whose highest accolade for a child is “well-behaved” often themselves suffer from a crisis of moral courage. This episode offers practical suggestions for teachers and parents who want to help kids acquire not only the capacity but the inclination to question what they’re told — and, when necessary, to refuse to go along.
A note from Alfie Kohn:
If you’re enjoying Kohn’s Zone, please tell other people about it. If you have feedback about an episode, send it to https://www.alfiekohn.org/contact-us/. And if you’re willing to do your part to keep the podcast ad- and paywall-free, please click on the donate button or visit https://coff.ee/kohnszone. Thanks!
Please click the button below to donate.
If you donât see a button, please go to this page (https://coff.ee/kohnszone).Donate
PRODUCTION SUPPORT: Ultraviolet Audio
ART: Abi Kohn -
Missing episodes?
-
June 15, 2026Fun Without Winning or Losing
We have been raised – and, in turn, raise our children – to take on faith that recreation requires competition, that half the people playing a game must try to defeat the other half. (They “cooperate” only with their teammates, and only in order to triumph over the other team.) In a true cooperative game, by contrast, everyone on the field – or gathered around a table indoors, in the case of cooperative board games – is working together toward the same goal. There are loads of such games for kids and adults, and you have to experience them to realize just how much fun competition isn’t.
RESOURCES:
Alfie Kohn, No Contest: The Case Against Competition (Houghton Mifflin, 1986/1992) – https://www.alfiekohn.org/contest/
Terry Orlick, The Cooperative Sports & Games Book (Pantheon, 1978) – https://amzn.to/33rltfY
https://www.cooperativegames.com/
https://familypastimes.com
A note from Alfie Kohn:
If you have comments or questions about an episode, send it to https://www.alfiekohn.org/contact-us/. And if youâre willing to help keep the podcast ad- and paywall-free, please click on the donate button or visit https://coff.ee/kohnszone. Thanks!
Please click the button below to donate.
If you donât see a button, please go to this page (https://coff.ee/kohnszone).Donate
PRODUCTION SUPPORT: Ultraviolet Audio
ART: Abi Kohn -
June 1, 2026“PROGRESSIVE HIGH SCHOOL” IS NOT AN OXYMORON
In theory, the fact that all but a handful of states have eliminated do-or-die exit exams allows high schools to finally do right by teenagers, to help them become engaged intellectuals and caring people. A leading theorist and practitioner of secondary education – author, professor, and long-time Midwestern principal George Wood – examines the barriers to creating meaningful high school reform as well as how they can be overcome. That means reducing school size and class size; having students take fewer classes and giving them more autonomy; eliminating tracking; creating advisory systems and interdisciplinary faculty teams; promoting deep intellectual inquiry in place of mere transmission of knowledge; creating authentic assessment and opportunities for cross-age interaction. If all of this can be done in a low-income public school district in rural Ohio, it can be done anywhere.
RESOURCES:
George H. Wood, Time to Learn, 2nd ed. (Heinemann, 2005) – https://tinyurl.com/2z25vd9m
George H. Wood, Schools That Work (Plume, 1993) – https://tinyurl.com/2zpccmhu
Theodore R. Sizer, Horace’s Compromise (Harper, 1984/2004) – https://tinyurl.com/bdhyvtr7
Deborah Meier, The Power of Their Ideas (Beacon, 1995) – https://tinyurl.com/2u9cbkaw
Harvey Daniels et al., Rethinking High School (Heinemann, 2000) – https://tinyurl.com/3t22mfxf
Eliot Levine, One Kid at a Time (Teachers College Press, 2001) – https://tinyurl.com/59ddwzyw
3 videos illustrating progressive education at a public high school (Urban Academy):
“Talk Talk Talk”: https://vimeo.com/590281072
“Looking for an Argument”: https://vimeo.com/453359582
“Back to the Books”: https://is.gd/WH5JCZ
A note from Alfie Kohn:
If you’re enjoying Kohn’s Zone, please tell other people about it.
If you have comments or questions about an episode, send it to https://www.alfiekohn.org/contact-us/.
And if you’re willing to help keep the podcast ad- and paywall-free, please click on the donate button or visit https://coff.ee/kohnszone. Thanks!
Please click the button below to donate.
If you donât see a button, please go to this page (https://coff.ee/kohnszone).Donate
PRODUCTION SUPPORT: Ultraviolet Audio
ART: Abi Kohn -
May 15, 2026Grade Inflation Is Not the Problem
When you look at student transcripts (rather than at self-reports), it’s less clear that average grades are rising over time. And even if some grades are higher, that doesn’t mean they’re “inflated” (i.e., undeserved). But many conservative critics don’t seem troubled by their inability to prove those claims; they’re indignant whenever a lot of kids get high grades, as if that outcome were inherently objectionable. Four troubling assumptions inform their outrage: that higher grades imply lower standards; that a teacher’s job is to sort students (rather than to help everyone succeed); that stringent grading motivates students (which conflates extrinsic with intrinsic motivation and is unsupported by data); and that students should be pitted against each other in a race for artificially scarce high grades (so that no matter how well everyone does, there must always be losers). If there is a crisis in education, it’s not how many students get A’s — it’s how many think the point of school is to get A’s (rather than to learn).
RESOURCES:
Lester H. Hunt, ed., Grade Inflation: Academic Standards in Higher Education (SUNY Press, 2008) — https://tinyurl.com/3phxfp5j
Alfie Kohn, “Can Everyone Be Excellent?”, New York Times, June 16, 2019 — https://www.alfiekohn.org/article/excellence/
A note from Alfie Kohn:
If you’re enjoying Kohn’s Zone, please tell other people about it.
If you have feedback about an episode, send it to https://www.alfiekohn.org/contact-us/.
And if you’re willing to do your part to keep the podcast ad- and paywall-free, please click on the donate button or visit https://coff.ee/kohnszone. Thanks!
Please click the button below to donate.
If you donât see a button, please go to this page (https://coff.ee/kohnszone).Donate
PRODUCTION SUPPORT: Ultraviolet Audio
ART: Abi Kohn -
May 1, 2026Beneath the What and the How Is the Why
In the absence of an affirmative definition of mental health, psychology doesn’t become value-free; its values – and the goals of therapy – are just driven underground. Similarly, if we don’t reflect on the purpose of education, schooling by default is oriented just to collecting a credential. The point of this episode is not to recommend one specific educational goal but to sharpen the questions we ask about that topic (and emphasize the importance of asking them). For example: Should the goal(s) of education be the same for all students? Do we favor intellectual, as opposed to purely vocational, outcomes – and, if so, are they more about transmitting knowledge or developing the capacity for critical thinking? Is the point to benefit individual students or our society — and, if the latter, does that mean boosting the economy or sustaining democracy? And what role should students themselves play in determining the reasons for learning?
RESOURCE:
Labaree, How to Succeed in School Without Really Learning (Yale Univ. Press, 1999) — https://tinyurl.com/2cz5mmyp
If you’re enjoying Kohn’s Zone, please tell other people about it. If you have feedback about an episode, send it to https://www.alfiekohn.org/contact-us/. And if you’re willing to do your part to keep the podcast ad- and paywall-free, kindly click on the donate button. Thanks!
Please click the button below to donate.
If you donât see a button, please go to this page (https://coff.ee/kohnszone).Donate
PRODUCTION SUPPORT: Ultraviolet Audio
ART: Abi Kohn -
April 15, 2026The Best Classroom Discussions, Hands Down
In traditional classrooms, students may contribute to a discussion only by raising their hands and waiting for the teacher to call on them. In even more controlling environments, students must contribute when the teacher calls on them, even if they’d rather not. The latter practice, “cold calling,” puts kids on the spot and forces them to perform on command. But the former practice, too, could be described as teacher-centered. Is there a way to change this dynamic in such a way that everyone won’t talk at once while also making sure that a few outspoken students won’t dominate the discussion? What would it mean for teachers to create a more democratic learning community by relinquishing the power to unilaterally decide who speaks when?
RESOURCES:
“Raising Hands” video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqzSlO9dp0c#t=00m25s
Kassia Omohundro Wedekind & Christy Hermann Thompson, Hands Down, Speak Out (Routledge, 2020) — https://tinyurl.com/26ccz97f
A note from Alfie Kohn:
I made two decisions when I decided to start this podcast. The first was not to accept ads. The second was to avoid putting certain episodes behind a paywall (or offering special content only to those who pay). But this means that I depend on the generosity of everyone who listens to help cover the production costs. So: Can you afford a modest contribution — ideally on a regular basis, since a podcast, after all, is not a one-shot event? If so, I’d be grateful if you’d support the project with whatever amount seems fair to you. (Your generosity will also confirm the thesis of my book The Brighter Side of Human Nature.)
Also, if you enjoy the podcast, please tell other people about it. And if you have feedback about an episode you’ve just listened to, send it to https://www.alfiekohn.org/contact-us/.Please click the button below to donate.
If you donât see a button, please go to this page (https://coff.ee/kohnszone).Donate
PRODUCTION SUPPORT: Ultraviolet Audio
ART: Abi Kohn -
April 1, 2026The Assault on Public Education: A Conversation with Jennifer Berkshire
Public schools, says Jennifer Berkshire, are the places “where we start to solve problems together” and from which no child can be excluded even if she has special needs or two moms. Public education is really the foundation of a pluralistic secular democracy, which is precisely why it has long been the target of the religious right. This extended episode of Kohn’s Zone features a conversation with Berkshire, who expertly guides us through efforts not only to impose religion, book bans, and a right-wing curriculum on public schools but to undermine the institution itself. Voucher plans are unpopular even in red states, but that reflects anti-government fervor more than support for public education, she explains. Liberals may be frustrated when schools fail to create a more egalitarian society, whereas conservatives fear that schools may succeed at this. Can a shared suspicion of wealthy interests — or opposition to standardized testing — fend off “school choice” plans? And where do charter schools fit in? Don’t miss this illuminating conversation.
RESOURCES:
Jennifer C. Berkshire and Jack Schneider, The Education Wars (New Press, 2024) — https://is.gd/9sZcHF
Jack Schneider and Jennifer C. Berkshire, A Wolf at the Schoolhouse Door (New Press, 2023) — https://is.gd/RCGOEa
https://www.haveyouheardpodcast.com/
A note from Alfie Kohn:
My sincere thanks to the listeners who have taken a minute to click on the DONATE link (or to visit coff.ee/kohnszone) and helped to cover our production costs, thereby keeping the podcast ad- and paywall-free. If you are not yet one of the listeners who has done this, it’s not too late. It will also not be too late tomorrow, but doing so right now would be even better.
Also, if you enjoy the podcast, please tell other people about it.
Please click the button below to donate.
If you donât see a button, please go to this page (https://coff.ee/kohnszone).Donate
PRODUCTION SUPPORT: Ultraviolet Audio
ART: Abi Kohn -
March 15, 2026Friendly Excursions into Disequilibrium
Enforced harmony is counterproductive. Pushing students (or employees) to come to agreement prematurely tends to undermine learning (or produce bad decisions). Sometimes that’s motivated by a desire to avoid conflict. But conflict handled carefully is not only tolerable; it’s valuable. What’s problematic is debate – disagreement where the point is not to learn or seek the truth but to win. The ideal arrangement in a classroom (or workplace) is cooperative conflict, where spirited disagreement is non-adversarial and nested in a caring environment.
RESOURCES:
David W. Johnson & Roger T. Johnson, “Energizing Learning: The Instructional Power of Conflict,” Educational Researcher (2009) — https://tinyurl.com/yc7t265j
Karl Smith et al., “Can Conflict Be Constructive?” Journal of Educational Psychology (1981) — https://tinyurl.com/474ja9bu
Alfie Kohn, No Contest: The Case Against Competition, rev. ed. (Houghton Mifflin, 1992) — https://www.alfiekohn.org/contest/
A note from Alfie Kohn:
I made two decisions when I decided to start this podcast. The first was not to accept ads. The second was to avoid putting certain episodes behind a paywall (or offering special content only to those who pay). But this means that I depend on the generosity of everyone who listens to help cover the production costs. So: Can you afford a modest contribution — ideally on a regular basis, since a podcast, after all, is not a one-shot event? If so, I’d be grateful if you’d support the project with whatever amount seems fair to you. (Your generosity will also confirm the thesis of my book The Brighter Side of Human Nature.)
Also, if you enjoy the podcast, please tell other people about it. And if you have feedback about an episode, send it to https://www.alfiekohn.org/contact-us/.Please click the button below to donate.
If you donât see a button, please go to this page (https://coff.ee/kohnszone).Donate
PRODUCTION SUPPORT: Ultraviolet Audio
ART: Abi Kohn -
March 1, 2026Who’s Cheating Whom?
We’re often warned about an “epidemic” of academic cheating and urged to do more to deter and punish the devious culprits. But we’ve had a century of research showing that the frequency of cheating is predicted not by the compromised morality of individual students but by the policies, priorities, and practices of schools. Specifically, cheating is far more common in competitive, achievement-oriented environments and much rarer when students experience the learning as meaningful and engaging and believe that their teachers care about them. In this episode we consider how systemic features not only increase the likelihood of cheating but are responsible for determining which actions (such as collaborating or consulting reference sources) constitute cheating in the first place.
RESOURCES:
Eric M. Anderman and Tamera B. Murdock, Psychology of Academic Cheating (Elsevier, 2007)Character Education Inquiry, Studies in the Nature of Character. Volume 1: Studies in Deceit (New York: Macmillan, 1928) — https://tinyurl.com/72jrrnrz
Y. Kanat-Maymon et al., “The Role of Basic Need-Fulfillment in Academic Dishonesty,” Contemporary Educational Psychology 43 (2015) — https://tinyurl.com/yjvxswsy
A note from Alfie Kohn:
If you’ve been enjoying, or at least listening to, the podcast but have put off supporting it with a modest quantity of cash, I am pleased to inform you that it is not too late to do so. It will also not be too late to do so tomorrow, but doing so today would be even better. Microphones, as my late father might have said, do not grow on trees.
Also, if you enjoy the podcast, please tell other people about it. And if you have feedback about an episode you’ve listened to, send it to https://www.alfiekohn.org/contact-us/.
Please click the button below to donate.
If you donât see a button, please go to this page (https://coff.ee/kohnszone).Donate
PRODUCTION SUPPORT: Ultraviolet Audio
ART: Abi Kohn -
February 15, 2026The Whole Point Is That There’s No Point
Early-childhood educators remind us how vital it is for kids to have plentiful opportunities to engage in free play – which, sadly, is often denied to them as academic pressures are imposed too early and too intensely. But let’s consider some perspectives on play that are less obvious: how the word is sometimes applied to activities that really aren’t play at all; how important play is for older students and adults, too; how play isn’t the only alternative to “work” in a school setting; and why we shouldn’t try to justify play on the basis of the skills or dispositions it supposedly helps children to acquire. True play has no goal other than itself, and the chance to enjoy it shouldn’t be conditioned on whether it proves to be useful.
RESOURCES:
https://allianceforchildhood.org/
https://www.naeyc.org/
NIFplay.org
Deborah Meier et al., Playing for Keeps (Teachers College Press, 2010): https://tinyurl.com/2hbamnpt
Vivian Gussin Paley, A Childâs Work (Univ. of Chicago Press, 2005): https://tinyurl.com/34yzzscw
David Elkind, The Power of Play (Hachette, 2007): https://tinyurl.com/y94mhxfz
A. Kohn, “Students Don’t ‘Work’ — They Learn,” Education Week, September 3, 1997: https://tinyurl.com/yzzwbkxx
A note from Alfie Kohn:
I made two decisions when I decided to start this podcast. The first was not to accept ads. The second was to avoid putting certain episodes behind a paywall (or offering special content only to those who pay). But this means that I depend on the generosity of everyone who listens to help cover the production costs. So: Can you afford a modest contribution — ideally on a regular basis, since a podcast, after all, is not a one-shot event? If so, I’d be grateful if you’d support the project with whatever amount seems fair to you. (Your generosity will also confirm the thesis of my book The Brighter Side of Human Nature.)
Also, if you enjoy the podcast, please tell other people about it. And if you have feedback about an episode you’ve just listened to, send it to https://www.alfiekohn.org/contact-us/.Please click the button below to donate.
If you donât see a button, please go to this page (https://coff.ee/kohnszone).Donate
PRODUCTION SUPPORT: Ultraviolet Audio
ART: Abi Kohn -
February 1, 2026Beyond “Electronic Flashcards”: A Conversation with Gary Stager
Computers in classrooms may have the potential to radically enrich and democratize student learning, but the reality of ed tech typically looks very different. This extended episode of Kohn’s Zone features a stimulating conversation with Gary Stager, one of our foremost experts on this topic. He takes us beyond banal generalities (“technology has pluses and minuses”) in order to tease out which types, uses, and purposes are constructive and which are a waste of time – or worse. In what he calls our current “age of rising pedagogical authoritarianism,” tech often is put in the service of “managing children, ‘delivering’ instruction, narrowing the curriculum, and turn[ing] kids into question-answering ATMs.” Whereas, Stager insists, computers can and should help students to mess around with possibilities, create thrilling projects, and make sense of the world.
RESOURCES
Sylvia Libow Martinez and Gary Stager, Invent to Learn: Making, Tinkering, and Engineering in the Classroom (2nd ed.), 2019: https://tinyurl.com/33k48zd8
Gary Stager, Twenty Things to Do with a Computer – Forward 50, 2021: https://tinyurl.com/mpdky2cw
https://constructingmodernknowledge.com/
Alfie Kohn, “The Sneaky Conservatism of Ed Tech,” Education Week, September 27, 2023: https://www.alfiekohn.org/article/tech-conservatism/
A note from Alfie Kohn:
My sincere thanks to the listeners who have taken a minute to click on the DONATE link and helped to cover our production costs, thereby keeping the podcast ad- and paywall-free. If you are not yet one of the listeners who has done this, it’s not too late. It will also not be too late tomorrow, but doing so right now would be even better.
Also, if you enjoy the podcast, please tell other people about it!
Please click the button below to donate.
If you donât see a button, please go to this page (https://coff.ee/kohnszone).Donate
PRODUCTION SUPPORT: Ultraviolet Audio
ART: Abi Kohn -
January 15, 2026How to Kill Kids’ Interest in Reading
Surveys reveal that fewer children and adults are reading for pleasure. This might be due partly to social media, but certain classroom strategies and school policies likely play a role. In this episode we come at the issue backwards: What would teachers do if their goal was to extinguish kids’ enthusiasm about books? Well, they would adopt a “fonix fetish” when teaching young children. They would require older students to read for a certain length of time — and keep a log to prove they complied. They would assign books rather than letting kids choose, test them on the content, and offer rewards for reading. These and other traditional practices are extremely effective…at leading kids to regard reading as an activity to be endured rather than enjoyed.
RESOURCES:
Jessica K. Bone et al., “The Decline in Reading for Pleasure Over 20 Years…,” iScience, 2025: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC12496190/
Teresa Cremin, “Reading for Pleasure,” Language and Education, 2024: https://tinyurl.com/376jcra8
Katherine Marsh, “Why Kids Aren’t Falling in Love with Reading,” The Atlantic, March 2023: https://tinyurl.com/mrxyfdpd
Alfie Kohn, “A Closer Look at Reading Incentive Programs,” excerpt from Punished by Rewards (1993/2018): https://www.alfiekohn.org/article/reading-incentives/
For a list of sources debunking claims of the “Science of Reading” campaign about phonics instruction, see note 11 of A. Kohn, “The Siren Song of ‘Evidence-Based Instruction,” 2024: https://tinyurl.com/24nyam6y.
Seth A. Parsons & Joy Dangora Erickson, âWhere Is Motivation in the Science of Reading?â, Phi Delta Kappan, 2024: https://tinyurl.com/mus7vn5p
Michael Becker et al., âIntrinsic and Extrinsic Reading Motivation as Predictors of Reading Literacy,â J of Educational Psych, 2010: https://tinyurl.com/3z34ctdd
Linda M. Pavonetti et al., âAccelerated Reader: What Are the Lasting Effects…?”, J of Adolescent & Adult Literacy, 2002/2003: https://tinyurl.com/yj8dfnwb
Barbara A. Marinak & Linda B. Gambrell, âIntrinsic Motivation and Rewards,â Literacy Research & Instruction, 2008: https://tinyurl.com/2yc3zrjp
A note from Alfie Kohn:
I made two decisions when I decided to start this podcast. The first was not to accept ads. The second was to avoid putting certain episodes behind a paywall (or offering special content only to those who pay). But this means that I depend on the generosity of everyone who listens to help cover the production costs. So: Can you afford a modest contribution — ideally on a regular basis, since a podcast, after all, is not a one-shot event? If so, I’d be grateful if you’d support the project with whatever amount seems fair to you. (Your generosity will also confirm the thesis of my book The Brighter Side of Human Nature.)
Also, if you enjoy the podcast, please tell other people about it. And if you have feedback about an episode you’ve just listened to, send it to https://www.alfiekohn.org/contact-us/.Please click the button below to donate.
If you donât see a button, please go to this page (https://coff.ee/kohnszone).Donate
PRODUCTION SUPPORT: Ultraviolet Audio
ART: Abi Kohn -
January 1, 2026Who Gets to Decide? – Part 2
Intellectually vibrant classrooms are distinguished by teachers who do a lot more asking than telling. Their motto when confronting challenges or planning lessons is “Bring the kids in on it!” Regular class meetings offer a significant role for students to reflect on “how we want our class to be” (rather than focusing on specific rules). This second of a two-part episode digs deeply into strategies for supporting student autonomy and then explores some of the structural and psychological reasons why some teachers are reluctant to move in this direction. It’s tough to give up control, but that’s when the learning really starts.
RESOURCES:
Daphne Blunt Bugental et al., âWhoâs the Boss?”, Journal of Personality and Social Psychology 72 (1997): 1297-1309
Child Development Project, Ways We Want Our Class to Be: Class Meetings That Build Commitment to Kindness and Learning (Developmental Studies Center, 1996) [https://tinyurl.com/4zkptxec]
A note from Alfie Kohn:
My sincere thanks to the listeners who have taken a minute to click on the DONATE link (or to visit coff.ee/kohnszone) and helped to cover our production costs, thereby keeping the podcast ad- and paywall-free. If you are not yet one of the listeners who has done this, it’s not too late. It will also not be too late tomorrow, but doing so right now would be even better.
Also, if you enjoy the podcast, please tell other people about it. And if you have feedback about an episode you’ve just listened to, send it to https://www.alfiekohn.org/contact-us/.
Please click the button below to donate.
If you donât see a button, please go to this page (https://coff.ee/kohnszone).Donate
PRODUCTION SUPPORT: Ultraviolet Audio
ART: Abi Kohn -
December 15, 2025Who Gets to Decide? – Part 1
An impressive body of research shows that people of all ages – including students in classrooms – are happier, healthier, and more productive when they have some say about what they’re doing. Indeed, the way children learn to make good decisions is by making decisions. Why, then, are so many classrooms more focused on eliciting their compliance than supporting their autonomy? In this, the first of a two-part episode, stories and studies illustrate the benefits of giving students a real voice about what and how they learn, how problems are solved, and even how the classroom is arranged and decorated. What’s more, many such decisions are best made collectively (and not just through voting) because autonomy + community = democracy.
A note from Alfie Kohn:
I made two decisions when I started this podcast. The first was not to accept ads. The second was to avoid putting certain episodes behind a paywall (or offering special content only to those who pay). But this means that I depend on the generosity of everyone who listens to help cover the production costs. So: Can you afford a modest contribution — ideally on a regular basis, since a podcast, after all, is not a one-shot event? If so, I’d be grateful if you’d support the project with whatever amount seems fair to you.
Also, if you enjoy the podcast, please tell other people about it. And if you have feedback about an episode you’ve just listened to, send it to https://www.alfiekohn.org/contact-us/.Please click the button below to donate.
If you donât see a button, please go to this page (https://coff.ee/kohnszone).Donate
PRODUCTION SUPPORT: Ultraviolet Audio
ART: Abi Kohn -
December 1, 2025The Curious Case of the Incurious ChildrenA Conversation with Susan Engel
Everyone agrees that it’s good to be curious, but that doesn’t mean schools are committed to fostering children’s curiosity. This extended episode of Kohn’s Zone features a provocative conversation with early-childhood expert Susan Engel of Williams College, who draws on a deep background of theory and research (some of it her own) to probe the nature of curiosity — that remarkable desire we have to resolve discrepancies between what we encounter and what we expected. Curiosity can feed on itself, generating new and subtler questions, yet classrooms often fail to support this process — and indeed may actively discourage it. The more densely packed the curriculum, and the more structured (and goal-oriented) the school day is, Engel argues, the less chance kids have to wonder and explore. She offers suggestions for how teachers can encourage students’ curiosity and help them figure out how best to act on it. We also discuss her newest book, which describes her visists to kindergartens across the country: What distinguishes classrooms for young children that are exceptional from those that make a thoughtful observer wince? (Hint: It’s not mostly a function of race, class, or how nice the teacher is.)
RESOURCES:
Susan Engel, The Hungry Mind (Harvard Univ. Press, 2018) [https://www.hup.harvard.edu/books/9780674984110]
Susan Engel, The Intellectual Lives of Children (Harvard Univ. Press, 2022) [https://www.hup.harvard.edu/books/9780674278646]
Susan Engel, The End of the Rainbow (New Press, 2015) [https://thenewpress.org/books/the-end-of-the-rainbow/]
Susan Engel, American Kindergarten (Univ. of Chicago Press, 2026) [https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/A/bo258923309.html]
Alfie Kohn, “Less and Less Curious,” Education Week, October 2, 2024 [https://www.alfiekohn.org/article/curiosity/]
A note from Alfie Kohn:
I made two decisions when I decided to start this podcast. The first was not to accept ads. The second was to avoid putting certain episodes behind a paywall (or offering special content only to those who pay). But this means that I depend on the generosity of everyone who listens to help cover the production costs. So: Can you afford a modest contribution — ideally on a regular basis, since a podcast, after all, is not a one-shot event? If so, I’d be grateful if you’d support the project with whatever amount seems fair to you. (Your generosity will also confirm the thesis of my book The Brighter Side of Human Nature.)
Also, if you enjoy the podcast, please tell other people about it. And if you have feedback about an episode you’ve just listened to, send it to https://www.alfiekohn.org/contact-us/.Please click the button below to donate.
If you donât see a button, please go to this page (https://coff.ee/kohnszone).Donate
PRODUCTION SUPPORT: Ultraviolet Audio
ART: Abi Kohn -
November 15, 2025It’s Not Just You
The most popular initiatives in education tend to be strategies for “fixing the kids.” A focus on the deficits of individual students, rather than a critical analysis of systemic issues, is the common denominator of academic remediation, behavior management programs, and efforts to equip children with more self-regulation, grit, or a “growth mindset.” Yet the entire field of social psychology warns us that we err in underestimating the impact of the environments in which people, including students, find themselves. Alas, this message has become muddled because some classic social psych research is widely misunderstood, including Milgram’s obedience experiments and Mischel’s marshmallow studies. So let’s explore what psychologists call the Fundamental Attribution Error — and consider how the individualistic underpinnings of our education system (and of our culture more generally) prevent us from taking that insight to heart.
RESOURCES:
Lee Ross, “The Intuitive Psychologist and His Shortcomings: Distortions in the Attribution Process,” Advances in Experimental Social Psychology 10 (1977): 173-220 [https://tinyurl.com/3d9xdjtd]
Nick Chater & George Loewenstein, It’s on You: How Corporations and Behavioral Scientists Have Convinced Us That We’re to Blame for Society’s Deepest Problems (Venture, 2026) — [https://tinyurl.com/uj4ymmey]
Muzafer Sherif et al., The Robbers Cave Experiment (Wesleyan Univ. Press, 1961/1988) [https://www.weslpress.org/9780819561947/the-robbers-cave-experiment/]
Stanley Milgram, Obedience to Authority (Harper, 1974/2009) [https://www.harpercollins.com/products/obedience-to-authority-stanley-milgram]
Philip Zimbardo’s prison experiment: See prisonexp.org.
Walter Mischel’s marshmallow experiments: Alfie Kohn, “S’More Misrepresentation of Research: What Waiting for a Second Marshmallow Doesn’t Prove,” Education Week, September 10, 2014 [https://www.alfiekohn.org/article/smore-misrepresentation-research/]; Walter Mischel, âFrom Good Intentions to Willpower,â in The Psychology of Action, ed. P. M. Gollwitzer and J. A. Bargh (Guilford, 1996); Mischel et al., âCognitive and Attentional Mechanisms in Delay of Gratification,â Journal of Personality and Social Psychology 21 (1972): 204-18.
Alfie Kohn, “How Not to Teach Values: A Critical Look at Character Education,” Phi Delta Kappan, February 1997 [https://www.alfiekohn.org/article/teach-values/]
Ruth Butler, “What Young People Want to Know When: Effects of Mastery and Ability Goals on Interest in Different Kinds of Social Comparisons,” Journal of Personality and Social Psychology 62 (1992): 934-43.
Nona M. Flynn and Judith L. Rapoport, “Hyperactivity in Open and Traditional Classroom Environments,” Journal of Special Education 10 (1976): 285-90; Rolf G. Jacob et al., “Formal and Informal Classroom Settings: Effects on Hyperactivity,” Journal of Abnormal Child Psychology 6 (1978): 47-59.
A note from Alfie Kohn:
My sincere thanks to the listeners who have taken a minute to click on the DONATE link (or to visit coff.ee/kohnszone) and helped to cover our production costs, thereby keeping the podcast ad- and paywall-free. If you are not yet one of the listeners who has done this, it’s not too late. It will also not be too late tomorrow, but doing so right now would be even better.
Also, if you enjoy the podcast, please tell other people about it. And if you have feedback about the episode you’ve just listened to, send it to https://www.alfiekohn.org/contact-us/.
Please click the button below to donate.
If you donât see a button, please go to this page (https://coff.ee/kohnszone).Donate
PRODUCTION SUPPORT: Ultraviolet Audio
ART: Abi Kohn -
November 1, 2025Making Kids Work a Second Shift
Too often the debate over homework is restricted to its quantity — or, at best, its quality. But such discussions take for granted the need for some homework, as if it were impossible to question that premise. It may come as a surprise, therefore, to learn that research generally fails to support the value of, let alone the need for, requiring children to complete more academic tasks when they get home from school. (For elementary and middle school students, no controlled studies have found a meaningful benefit to assigning any type or amount of homework.) So why is the practice still so pervasive and widely accepted? Perhaps the answer lies in mistaken beliefs about learning and cynical beliefs about children.
RESOURCES:
Sara Bennett and Nancy Kalish, The Case Against Homework: How Homework Is Hurting Our Children and What We Can Do About It (Crown, 2006)
John Buell, Closing the Book on Homework: Enhancing Public Education and Freeing Family Time (Temple University Press, 2004)
Alfie Kohn, The Homework Myth: Why Our Kids Get Too Much of a Bad Thing (Da Capo Press, 2006) (https://www.alfiekohn.org/homework-myth/). Read chapter 2 (“Does Homework Improve Learning?”) here: https://www.alfiekohn.org/homework-improve-learning/
Alfie Kohn, “Homework: An Unnecessary Evil? Surprising Findings from New Research,” 2012 (https://www.alfiekohn.org/blogs/homework-unnecessary-evil-surprising-findings-new-research/)
Etta Kralovec and John Buell, The End of Homework: How Homework Disrupts Families, Overburdens Children, and Limits Learning (Beacon Press, 2000)
A note from Alfie Kohn:
My sincere thanks to the listeners who have taken a minute to click on the DONATE link (or to visit coff.ee/kohnszone) and helped to cover our production costs, thereby keeping the podcast ad- and paywall-free. If you are not yet one of those listeners, it’s not too late. It will also not be too late tomorrow, but doing so right now would be even better.
Also, if you enjoy the podcast, please tell other people about it. And if you have feedback about the episode you’ve just listened to, send it to https://www.alfiekohn.org/contact-us/.
Please click the button below to donate.
If you donât see a button, please go to this page (https://coff.ee/kohnszone).Donate
PRODUCTION SUPPORT: Ultraviolet Audio
ART: Abi Kohn -
October 15, 2025A.I., as in Anti-Intellectual
People who express concern about the use of AI in schools often focus on how it allows students to get away with something (by using OpenAI to write their essays). But shouldn’t we be talking more about its potential effects on teaching and learning than whether it will impede our ability to evaluate students? The problem is not just that we seem to be overestimating the capabilities of LLMs but that we seem to be underestimating the essence of education, which is a process, not merely a series of products. Moreover, is it really a math or English teacher’s responsibility to train students in how to use AI? At best, that skill is quite different from learning to reason through a problem, read deeply, or organize one’s thoughts. At worst, AI offers a way for students to avoid doing those things.
RESOURCES:
Research:
Hamsta Bastani et al., “Generative AI Can Harm Learning,” 2024 (https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4895486)
Nataliya Kosmyna et al., “Your Brain on ChatGPT,” 2025 (https://arxiv.org/pdf/2506.08872)
Michael Gerlich, “AI Tools in Society,” 2025 (https://www.mdpi.com/2075-4698/15/1/6)
Activism:
https://against-a-i.com/
https://stopgenai.com/
https://openletter.earth/an-open-letter-from-educators-who-refuse-the-call-to-adopt-genai-in-education-cb4aee75
Other critiques:
This episode overlaps with a recent essay by Alfie Kohn (“The Chatbot in the Classroom, the Forklift at the Gym” – https://www.alfiekohn.org/article/ai/), which contains dozens of links to provocative discussions of AI by other writers.
A note from Alfie Kohn:
I made two decisions when I decided to start this podcast. The first was not to accept ads. The second was to avoid putting certain episodes behind a paywall (or offering special content only to those who pay). But this means that I depend on the generosity of everyone who listens to help cover the production costs. So: Can you afford a modest contribution — ideally on a regular basis, since a podcast, after all, is not a one-shot event? If so, I’d be grateful if you’d support the project with whatever amount seems fair to you. (Your generosity will also confirm the thesis of my book The Brighter Side of Human Nature.)
Oh, and if you enjoy the podcast, please tell other people about it. And if you have feedback about the episode you’ve just listened to, send it to https://www.alfiekohn.org/contact-us/.Please click the button below to donate.
If you donât see a button, please go to this page (https://coff.ee/kohnszone).Donate
PRODUCTION SUPPORT: Ultraviolet Audio
ART: Abi Kohn -
October 1, 2025Death by CivicsA Conversation with Joel Westheimer About the Role of Education in Democratic Life
Suppose you wanted young people to develop a commitment to democracy, particularly at a time when it’s under assault. How would you do that? Not by creating a school culture in which following the rules is valued more than critical thinking. And not by offering conventional civics courses with mind-numbing recitations of facts about how government is supposed to work. There’s a big difference between teaching about a country’s political system (or even about democracy), on the one hand, and preparing students to be active participants in a democratic society, on the other. This extended episode of Kohn’s Zone features a lively conversation with educator Joel Westheimer, a professor at the University of Ottawa, who reflects on how even young children, with their natural concern about fairness, can be helped to reflect on democracy. But at what point does the promotion of democratic values shade into indoctrination? Conversely, when does a commitment to valuing multiple perspectives lapse into relativism? And is progressive teaching sufficient, or even necessary, for developing a commitment to democratic ideals?
RESOURCES:
Joel Westheimer, What Kind of Citizen?: Educating Our Children for the Common Good, rev. ed. (Teachers College Press, 2024)
Joel Westheimer, ed., Pledging Allegiance: The Politics of Patriotism in America’s Schools (Teachers College Press, 2007)
A note from Alfie Kohn:
I made two decisions when I decided to start this podcast. The first was not to accept ads. The second was to avoid putting certain episodes behind a paywall (or offering special content only to those who pay). But this means that I depend on the generosity of everyone who listens to help cover the production costs. So: Can you afford a modest contribution — ideally on a regular basis, since a podcast, after all, is not a one-shot event? If so, I’d be grateful if you’d support the project with whatever amount seems fair to you. (Your generosity will also confirm the thesis of my book The Brighter Side of Human Nature.)
Oh, and if you enjoy the podcast, please tell other people about it. Also, if you have feedback about the episode you’ve just listened to, send it to https://www.alfiekohn.org/contact-us/.Please click the button below to donate.
If you donât see a button, please go to this page (https://coff.ee/kohnszone).Donate
PRODUCTION SUPPORT: Ultraviolet Audio
ART: Abi Kohn - Show more
