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For Graham Sattler, being a musical inclusion advocate means building a life's work around a single conviction: that music is the activity with the fewest impediments to participation. In this episode, Melissa talks with Graham about the journey that took him from the opera stage and the orchestral trombone section to the heart of community music practice, and the moment in Orange, New South Wales, that crystallised everything.
Graham shares what he found when his Churchill Fellowship took him across eight countries investigating best-practice community music leadership training, and why the musicians he met were so strikingly clear about the why, how, and what of their work. He reflects on confidence, courage, and intrinsic motivation as essential leadership qualities; on generosity, compassion, and selflessness as the values that underpin effective practice; and on what happens to a community when leadership changes and those qualities disappear.
The conversation also turns to orchestras — Graham is currently CEO of the Christchurch Symphony Orchestra — and what it takes for professional performance organisations to engage authentically with community, rather than as a funding exercise. Honest, thoughtful, and full of hard-won insight, this is a conversation about what it really means to lead music that matters.
Key Topics DiscussedWhat "musical inclusion advocate" means and where that framing came fromMusic as the most accessible participatory activity — and how to respond when that idea is challengedThe move from Sydney to Orange, NSW, and the moment community music came into sharp focusThe training gap in community music leadership across Australia and the Asia-PacificWhat Graham observed in leadership training programs across the US, Canada, Ireland, Scotland, England, Norway, Portugal, and ArmeniaConfidence, courage, and intrinsic motivation as pillars of effective community music leadershipThe values common to the best community music leaders: generosity, compassion, and selflessnessWhat happens to a community when leadership changes — and why training mattersProfessional orchestras and community engagement: honest assessment of where the sector is and where it falls shortCommunity music as 60% of the Christchurch Symphony Orchestra's organisational outputNotable Quotes"Music is the most accessible group activity that human beings can engage in — it has the fewest impediments to participation."
"Whatever they bring into the room is enough. Human beings are profoundly and intrinsically musical, and music is, similarly, profoundly human."
"I discovered what it was to be answerable to, responsible to, identifiable community — and that's when it really crystallised."
"I hadn't teased courage out of confidence before — but they are quite different things."
"When those qualities aren't there, people notice. People aren't stupid. They can spot a phony."
About Graham SattlerGraham Sattler is an Australian musician, educator, and orchestra CEO whose career has taken him from the opera stage to the conductor's podium to the heart of community music practice. He has worked as a trombonist and singer with the Australian Opera, as a conductor of orchestras and choirs across Australia and internationally, and spent over a decade as director of regional conservatoriums in New South Wales — leading music programs with aged, disability, and at-risk youth communities. He holds a PhD in Music Education, a Master of Performance (Conducting), and a Graduate Certificate in the Psychology of Risk. In 2019, Graham was awarded a Churchill Fellowship to investigate best-practice community music leadership training programs across eight countries. He is currently CEO of the Christchurch Symphony Orchestra in Aotearoa New Zealand, where community engagement makes up 60% of the organisation's output.
Connect with GrahamLinkedIn
Christchurch Symphony Orchestra
Episode Highlights00:01:27 — What "musical inclusion advocate" means, and how Graham arrived at that description00:03:55 — Responding to the challenge: is music really the most accessible activity?00:05:31 — Why the word "made" is the alarm bell for everything community music stands against00:08:14 — The move to Orange, NSW, and the moment inclusion became central00:13:25 — Why the leadership training gap matters — and what's lost when leadership changes00:16:24 — What confidence actually looks like in community music leadership00:21:19 — Confidence versus courage: two different things00:23:09 — Whatever they bring into the room is enough00:30:18 — The common values of effective community music leaders: generosity, compassion, selflessness00:33:04 — Orchestras and community: an honest assessment00:40:08 — The three closing questions: human connection, one song to unite a room, and a magic wand -
Joel Carnegie—conductor, broadcaster, and storyteller—talks about Awkwardstra Geelong, a community orchestra that is quietly doing some of the most important social work in the business.
Joel shares how he came to Awkwardstra after a demanding period in his professional life, and why the experience fundamentally changed how he thinks about music and leadership. This episode is a masterclass in what inclusive, values-driven music-making can look like in practice.
Joel also reflects on his background as a storyteller and how narrative — including the music itself — can convey the value of community music in ways statistics simply can't. Drawing on his training in acting methods and voice work, he offers a thoughtful account of what it means to lead from the podium with empathy, clarity, and a willingness to sit with uncertainty.
This conversation is full of practical wisdom and genuine inspiration.
Key Topics DiscussedThe origins of Awkwardstra Geelong and Joel's path to becoming its conductorWhat radical inclusivity looks like in a community orchestra and the practical structures that support itManaging a wide range of skill levels and experience: music selection, coaching programs, and section supportThe "Awky Pass" and how the collective supports individual members facing financial barriersThe tension between musical quality and inclusivity and why it can be a generative rather than a destructive tensionThe role of story in making the case for community music, including a commissioned piece built from players' own storiesHow acting training and voice work inform Joel's practice as a conductor and ensemble leaderEmpathy, clarity, and openness as core qualities in music leadershipWhat music leadership has to offer organisational leadership more broadlyAdvice for young musicians interested in community musicNotable Quotes"Making music for the joy of it, for creating connections across the community, and for offering people an opportunity to extend themselves — that's really what we're doing here."
"The podium never lies. There's no one else you can really be except yourself up there."
"We start every rehearsal by recognising that we've all had whatever happened during the day, and we take a moment to arrive into the space — intentionally — and remember that we're in physical bodies playing instruments that are physical."
"Music allows us to feel. And when we can feel, we can connect with other people. We're in the business of feeling-making and moment-making."
"People getting together and playing music is eternal. And those who are providing the structure for that to happen are creating guardrails and forms of resilience and resistance."
"Just because it's not happening in Sydney or Melbourne doesn't mean it is not of value."
Resources MentionedAwkwardstra Geelong — community orchestra based in Geelong, VICKym Dillon — composer, pianist, and arranger who created a piece for Awkwardstra based on players' stories; performing with the orchestra again at the Geelong Arts Centre, 17 October 2026Pako Festa (Pakington Street Festival) — Geelong's largest street festival; Awkwardstra performed as a flash mob opening actIngrid Martin — Joel's conducting coachABC Classic Evenings — national radio program hosted by Joel CarnegieAbout GuestJoel Carnegie is a conductor, performer, and storyteller whose work spans live music, broadcasting, and community engagement. Each weeknight he hosts the national Evenings program on ABC Classic, and his storytelling work has earned recognition at the New York Festivals International Radio Awards and The Whickers, a prestigious international award for audio storytelling.
From 2015 to 2024, Joel was Founder and Head of Storytelling at The Space Company, where he led the creation of music-rich podcasts, screen productions, and live stage works — including the nationally touring double bill Stardust + The Mission, which involved over 200 local musicians across 45 cities. A graduate of the Australia Council's Future Leaders program, he holds degrees from the University of Melbourne, Swinburne, and Deakin, with performance training in Graz, Austria.
Joel is now the Conductor of Awkwardstra Geelong, a community orchestra built on a simple but radical idea: that making music together should be open to everyone.
Connect with Guesthttps://www.joelcarnegie.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/joelcarnegie/
Episode Highlights[00:01:47] How Awkwardstra began — and why Joel joined[00:05:37] The philosophy behind the name and what inclusivity looks like in the rehearsal room[00:14:57] Removing barriers: the Awky Pass, coaching programs, and community support[00:18:09] Musical quality vs. inclusivity — a generative tension[00:22:19] The power of story in community music, and commissioning Kim Dillon[00:28:13] Why Joel pursued acting methods and voice training — and how they shape his leadership[00:32:24] The most important qualities in a music leader: empathy, openness, clarity[00:36:28] What music leadership offers that other leadership models don't[00:39:23] Advice for young musicians
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Dr Belinda Densley has spent more than 30 years facilitating community singing groups in Geelong, Victoria, and over that time she came to understand that the work was never really about the voice. It was about the mechanics of heart, soul, and mind. That realisation led her through a Masters in Counselling and Psychotherapy and ultimately to a recently completed PhD, in which she developed a grounded theory of group singing facilitation she calls Creating Song Magic.
In this episode, Belinda unpacks that theory, exploring the four core dimensions of the facilitator's role: advocating for people's right to sing, curating repertoire that creates meaningful experiences, welcoming and sustaining harmonious expression in the room, and contributing to the transformation of communities. She also speaks candidly about the "hidden work" that singing facilitators do — work that has remained largely invisible, under-resourced, and poorly defined, even within music and community health sectors.
We talk about what it means to reframe the singing facilitator as a community health resource, the importance of boundary-setting and reflective practice, and why Belinda believes trauma-informed relational skills should be foundational to any future training for facilitators. She also shares a deeply moving story about a love-and-loss singing session that rippled far beyond the room.
Key Topics DiscussedThe burning question behind Belinda's PhDWhy the singing facilitator role has remained hidden The four categories of Creating Song Magic: advocating, curating, welcoming and sustaining harmonious expression, and transforming communitiesThe difference between participatory, circle-based singing and performance-oriented models like pub choirThe facilitator as a community health resource and the consequences of that role remaining unrecognised and underfundedBoundary-setting in facilitation, and how clarity within the facilitator translates to clarity for participantsThe case for trauma-informed, relational training for singing facilitators Sharing research findings through a five-part podcast series as an accessible alternative to academic publishingThe systemic barriers community singing groups face in accessing physical spacesThe role of autonomous health-seeking behaviour in group singing participationNotable Quotes"The work was never really about the mechanics of the voice — it was about the mechanics of heart, soul, and mind."
"You have the fundamental human right to sing. You can sing."
"We're not asking, are we trying to get the notes to be accurate? We're trying to create the harmony that's beyond musical — a harmony of beingness, a harmony within community."
"People fell in love with the singing group and sometimes misplace that love for the facilitator. Getting clear on what your role is does so much of the work. The confusion really stops existing if you're not confused yourself."
"I don't advertise — people that come to me come via someone already in the group. There's already an expectation that there's going to be a wellbeing effect from coming."
"This thing that just happened today has caused so much therapeutic growth that is beyond the capacity of me as one individual."
"Singing with another allows so much possibility in — for love, actually, for love."
"There's no reason everyone in Australia can't be in a singing group once a week."
ResourcesCreating Song Magic — Belinda Densley's grounded theory of group singing facilitation (PhD research, Federation University Australia)Belinda's podcast documenting participant experiences of her singing groups AcabellasAbout GuestDr Belinda Densley is a singing facilitator, counsellor, and researcher based in Geelong, Victoria, Australia. For more than 30 years, she has facilitated community singing groups grounded in the belief that singing is a fundamental human right and a powerful vehicle for wellbeing, connection, and community transformation.
Belinda holds a Masters in Counselling and Psychotherapy and a PhD from Federation University Australia, where her research focused on the process of group singing facilitation itself. Her grounded theory, Creating Song Magic, is the first study of its kind to illuminate the complex, relational, and largely invisible work that skilled singing facilitators perform. She also teaches postgraduate counselling students and mentors emerging facilitators.
Alongside her research, Belinda has disseminated her PhD findings through an accessible five-part podcast series, reflecting her commitment to making practitioner knowledge available beyond academic audiences.
Connect with Belindahttps://acabellas.com.au/contact/Episode Highlights02:00 — The burning question: what mechanisms beneath the wellbeing effects of group singing led Belinda to pursue a PhD?
03:00 — Why the singing facilitator role sits "in the middle of a lot of different areas" and has remained underexplored
05:30 — Singing as a "with" activity— participatory, relational, and whole-body expression
08:50 — Unpacking Creating Song Magic: advocating, curating, welcoming and sustaining harmonious expression, and transforming communities
13:00 — The role of community singing in a hyper-individualistic world: a radical reimagining of what community can be
19:40 — Autonomous health-seeking behaviour: why people come to Belinda's groups already expecting a wellbeing effect
22:00 — Grassroots growth versus scaled investment: how VicHealth and Community Music Victoria once blazed singing groups across Victoria
26:20 — A love-and-loss singing session: 70 people, no words — just song — and a ripple effect that extended far beyond the room
29:00 — The counselling background: why relational work, not musical training alone, is what takes facilitation to the next level
31:00 — Boundary-setting in practice: when participants misplace their love of the group onto the facilitator
34:00 — What Belinda would change: funded training programs, and council recognition of community singing groups in space allocation
39:00 — The closing questions: the lesson music has taught her about human connection, her song of choice for strangers, and her magic wand wish
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What happens when a researcher brings together music education and criminology to advocate for the rights of some of society's most marginalised young people? In this episode, I speak with Dr Alexis Kallio, an interdisciplinary researcher whose work sits at a unique and important intersection—one that is challenging how institutions think about music, punishment, and what young people truly need to thrive.
Alexis shares how her background in both music education and criminology led her to focus on music programs in youth justice settings, and what she has learned from collaborating with Western Australian hip-hop artist Optimus (Scott Griffiths) on the Banksia Beats program at Banksia Hill Youth Detention Centre. She reflects on what it means to meet young people as musicians rather than as students, why ownership and trust are so transformative in carceral settings, and why trauma-informed practice is relevant for every musician working with young people, not just those in detention.
Throughout, Alexis makes a compelling case that music is not a luxury or a reward—it is a fundamental right for every child.
Key Topics DiscussedHow Alexis's degrees in both music education and criminology shaped her research focus on youth justice settingsThe Banksia Beats program at Banksia Hill Youth Detention Centre and what makes it effectiveWhy meeting young people as musicians—rather than as teacher and student—is central to building trustThe importance of agency, ownership, and strengths-based approaches in music programs for incarcerated youthTrauma-informed practice and why it matters across all music education contextsWhy there is no one-size-fits-all pedagogical approach: responding to the individual in the roomThe concept of "hungry listening" (Dylan Robinson) and what it means for musicians working in community settingsAlexis's national symposium on music, crime and social change and the community it has createdThe Policing Australian Popular Music project and its work with Queensland Police ServiceThe case for music and music education as a fundamental right for every childNotable Quotes"At the end of the day, these are children."
"In a space where young people have ownership over literally nothing—they can't even choose the temperature of their shower—to have ownership over something with expensive music equipment, and have that as yours, can be a really powerful sense of pride."
"There is no one right way, because there's no one child."
"Music is all about connection. And connection is all about music."
"I'd like music and music education to be a right for every child, regardless of their background or circumstance—something that is seen as essential to their lives now, but also their growth."
"Young people's voices are sometimes articulated more clearly through their music than through any words they'll say to a social worker or a psychologist."
Resources MentionedHungry Listening by Dylan RobinsonAbout GuestDr Alexis Kallio is an interdisciplinary researcher at Griffith University whose work explores how music education and creative practices create opportunities for equity and justice, particularly for young people experiencing vulnerability or marginalisation. Drawing on expertise in both music education and criminology, Alexis examines how educators and musicians navigate questions of power, values, and meaning in their work. Her research bridges grassroots community practice with institutional frameworks, asking critical questions about how creative spaces can be structured to support positive youth development. She has taught across studio, school, university, and community settings in both Australia and Finland.
Connect with Alexis
Episode Highlights05:00 Why Alexis sees all young people—regardless of setting—as deserving the same child-centred approach to music13:30 What makes the Banksia Beats program so effective, and why musical expertise matters15:45 The profound impact of ownership and trust in a detention centre music studio22:00 Why music is uniquely positioned to develop both individual identity and social connection simultaneously26:00 Dylan Robinson's concept of "hungry listening" and what it means to truly listen to young people29:00 The national symposium on music, crime and social change—and finding your people33:30 Alexis's submission to the youth justice inquiry and her challenge to the idea of incarceration as a solution36:30 The Policing Australian Popular Music project and working with Queensland Police Service -
Coming to our senses: How creativity helps us trust our own experience, with Dr Carla van LaarShow Notes
In this episode, I speak with Dr. Carla Van Laar, a creative and experiential therapist, painter, and passionate advocate for the creative revolution in mental health and wellbeing. With over 30 years' experience using the arts for health and wellbeing, Carla is the founding director of the Creative Mental Health Forum and convener of the Psychotherapy and Counselling Federation of Australia's (PACFA) College of Creative and Experiential Therapies.
Carla shares her compelling vision for how creativity can act as a reality check in a world that constantly asks us to outsource our sense of what's real. From her early childhood discovery of perspective in art through to her current advocacy work at a national level, Carla's journey illuminates why creative engagement is essential—not peripheral—to mental health and social wellbeing.
The conversation explores the disconnect between mounting evidence for creative arts therapies and their limited implementation in Australia's health system, the need for a rethink of biomedical models to better accommdate creative therapies, and what happens when we create accessible spaces where people can connect through the arts.
Key Topics DiscussedCreativity as a Reality Check
How creativity restores trust in first-hand experiencing in a society that asks us to outsource our sense of realityThe parallel between gaslighting dynamics and systemic forces that undermine our perceptionHow creative practice brings us into the present moment and to our senses—sight, touch, hearing, taste, and scentCreative Flow States and Wellbeing
Research on the benefits of engaging in creative practice for as little as 20 minutesHow flow states create a sense of timelessness, reduce stress, improve sleep, and help us meet life's challengesNavigating obstacles to creativity: inner critics, self-judgement, attachment to product over processPersonal Journey to Creative Arts Therapy
How learning about perspective as a young child changed Carla's worldviewUsing creative practice to navigate uncertainty and make sense of the world through her own lensesThe convergence of fine arts, community arts practice, and creative arts therapySystemic Advocacy and Reform
Strategic positioning of creative arts therapies within the broader psychotherapy and counselling frameworkThe 2020 push during COVID to ensure creative therapists were part of mental health system reformsInclusion in national standards for the psychotherapy and counselling workforceThe Evidence Gap and Implementation Challenges
Why the question "does it work?" is now outdated—World Health Organisation and global health bodies have established the benefitsCreative engagement addresses isolation and loneliness, underlying causes of depression and mental ill-healthThe challenge of measuring relational, context-responsive practices using biomedical modelsLooking at return on investment differently: reduced hospital admissions, reduced burden on mental health services, suicide preventionRethinking Service Delivery Models
The limitations of applying one-hour-a-week biomedical models to creative therapiesCarla's vision for community creative health hubs where people can spend time, connect, participate, and be audiencesThe story of the Inverlock Pop-Up Art Co: what happens when creative spaces become accessibleThe gap between GP mental health care plans and accessible supportShifting Worldviews
Why awareness-raising alone isn't enough—people need embodied experience to understand the benefitsThe 85-year-old veteran who went from "what's this mumbo jumbo?" to "this creative stuff actually helps me" in 12 monthsDifferent forms of evidence: the persistence of creative and cultural practices over millennia as proof of efficacyThe importance of policy makers and health professionals having their own creative experiencesNotable Quotes"Creativity itself can and does restore our trust in first-hand experiencing in a world that keeps asking us to outsource our sense of reality."
"Our senses—whichever ones we love the most—can all be sources of wonderful information about the world around us. And they are the original source for us of our ways of knowing and navigating the world. Creativity in that way isn't seen as an escape from reality, it can actually be a reality check."
"Engaging in a creative practice of any form really brings us into the here and now. We have to be present, because that's where it's happening, right here, right now."
"Connection is the most important thing. We need connection, and in fact, us, like every other living thing, we gravitate towards connection. Everything is connected, everything wants to be connected. We're no different. We need connection to thrive."
"Tell me, and I'll forget. Show me, and I might remember, but involve me and I'll understand. When people experience for themselves the benefit, then that's the best evidence that a person can have—knowing that it's good for them."
"Look at our evidence. It's the evidence of continuing practice over millennia. It's the evidence that these things persist and continue, and people keep doing them, because people for that long have known that they work."
"What if there was a person who took that help seeker and actually literally walked across the road to a community creative hub, and introduced them to a couple of people there? That's what we're missing."
"I would wave my magic wand, and boom, inside or beside and alongside and co-located with every GP practice, library, community hub, there would be a community creative hub for every member of Australia's communities."
Resources MentionedCarla's Publications
Seeing Her Stories – Explores making women's unseen stories visible through art and includes findings on how creativity brings us to our sensesOrganisations and Initiatives
Creative Mental Health Forum (founded by Carla)PACFA (Psychotherapy and Counselling Federation of Australia) – College of Creative and Experiential TherapiesACARTA (Australian Creative Arts Therapy Association) – founded by Carla and colleagues in 1999Inverlock Pop-Up Art Co – community arts initiativeResearch and Policy
World Health Organisation evidence on benefits of creative engagementVicHealth advocacy for creative engagementCreative Australia's work on creative engagement for communitiesNational standards for the psychotherapy and counselling workforce (released 2024)About Dr. Carla Van LaarDr. Carla Van Laar is a creative and experiential therapist, painter, and passionate advocate for the creative revolution in mental health and wellbeing. With over 30 years' experience using the arts for health and wellbeing in community organisations, justice, health, and education settings, Carla has dedicated her career to making creative therapeutic practices more accessible and embedded in Australia's mental health system.
As the founding director of the Creative Mental Health Forum and convener of the Psychotherapy and Counselling Federation of Australia's (PACFA) College of Creative and Experiential Therapies, Carla works at both grassroots and systemic levels to advocate for the profession. Her advocacy work spans decades, including founding the Australian Creative Arts Therapy Association (ACARTA) in 1999 as its inaugural president.
Carla currently lives and works on Boonwaring country in Inverloch, where she runs a welcoming art studio and creative therapies practice, working with NDIS participants, war veterans, and families affected by violence. Her work is grounded in the philosophy that arts-based practices are essential for healing our troubled world.
She has authored two books, including Seeing Her Stories, which explores making women's unseen stories visible through art. Known for community arts initiatives like the Inverloch Pop-Up Art Co, Carla insists on being part of a creative revolution where art re-embodies lived experience, brings us to our senses, and serves as an agent of social change.
Connect Carla LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/carlavanlaar/Website: https://carlavanlaar.com/Episode Highlights[00:02] Introduction to Dr. Carla Van Laar and her work in creative arts therapy
[01:51] Why we need to be brought back to our senses and how creativity helps
[02:50] The gaslighting boss metaphor: how systems undermine our perception of reality
[04:39] The biomedical model and the mind-body split
[05:16] Research findings: creativity brings us to our senses and into the present moment
[08:04] Ancient cultural practices that privileged social and emotional health
[08:46] Creative flow states: what happens when we engage for 20 minutes or more
[09:39] Navigating obstacles to creativity: inner critics and self-judgement
[12:02] Carla's journey into creative arts therapy
[13:03] How learning perspective as a young child changed her worldview
[15:52] Systemic advocacy work and the founding of ACARTA in 1999
[17:07] COVID and the push for mental health system reform
[18:03] Positioning creative arts therapies within PACFA's framework
[19:02] Working intermodally: visual arts, mindfulness, embodiment, and drama
[20:00] Inclusion in national standards for psychotherapy and counselling
[22:30] The disconnect between evidence and implementation
[23:01] The question "does it work?" is now outdated
[24:11] How creative engagement addresses isolation and loneliness
[25:25] Return on investment: reducing burden on health systems
[27:08] Why biomedical measurement methods don't fit relational practices
[28:08] The problem with one-hour-a-week creative therapy models
[28:26] Vision for community creative health hubs
[29:09] The challenge of patient perception: when GPs prescribe the arts
[30:00] The Parkinson's symposium experience: the unwavering belief in biomedical models
[31:01] The inherited systems we've internalized since birth
[31:45] Deferring our power to experts versus recognizing our own agency
[32:19] Working with resistant participants: the 85-year-old veteran's journey
[33:06] "Involve me and I'll understand": experience as the best evidence
[34:34] The need for policy makers to have embodied creative experiences
[35:12] Different views of evidence: persistence of practice over millennia
[36:04] Story of transformation: the Inverloch Pop-Up Art Co
[37:02] From empty accountant's office to thriving creative hub in 8 weeks
[37:48] 30 local artists emerged from the community
[38:42] Workshops flourished: juggling, ukulele, singing, meditation, life drawing
[39:02] Why the pop-up wasn't sustainable as an individual enterprise
[40:03] What's missing: accessible community creative spaces
[40:34] The mental health care plan scenario: 6-12 month waitlists when people are in crisis
[41:05] Imagining a different response: walking someone to a creative hub
[42:02] Final questions: the most important lesson about human connection
[42:34] Connection is what every living thing gravitates toward
[42:55] One song to bring randoms together: Bob Marley's "One Love" (with medley including "What the World Needs Now" and "All You Need Is Love")
[43:54] Magic wand wish: a community creative hub co-located with every GP practice and library
[44:34] Closing remarks
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This episode features Liz Lecoanet, an international vocal specialist who's pioneering the integration of singing into healthcare and workplace wellbeing. As the first wellbeing choral conductor employed by New South Wales Health in Australia, Liz shares her passionate mission to make singing as prescribable as exercise, revealing how she co-founded "Singing for Health" with GP Dr Isabel Hansen, a singing group for medical professionals.
Liz's journey from opera stages in London and New York to hospital wards reveals a profound shift: the most powerful music happens when we stop trying to "get it right" and start listening.
This conversation explores the essential balance between doing and being, the difference between community music and performance, and why Liz is convinced that singing is an essential service. Liz's infectious energy and unwavering conviction that singing is a human right make this a must-listen for anyone interested in the intersection of arts, health, and social change.
Topics DiscussedThe birth of Singing for Health: How a frustrated conversation about people being told they "can't sing" led to a partnership between music and medicinePrescribing singing like exercise: The campaign to have GPs prescribe singing as a health interventionCreating safe spaces for vulnerability: Why healthcare workers particularly need permission to "get it wrong"The yin-yang of modern life: How singing provides essential balance to our "tick-box" cultureOpera training meets community practice: Navigating the transition from perfectionism to presenceEmbodied leadership: How physical presence and authentic passion create permission for othersMedical conferences and boardrooms: Strategies for convincing sceptics through experienceThe social movement: Positioning arts and health as fundamental rather than supplementaryIndigenous wisdom: Reconnecting with singing as inherent human expressionNotable Quotes"I just want to go into a court of law and prove what this does to somebody when you tell them that they can't sing... what it does to your immune system, what it does to your relationships, how that changes your workplace... if you tell someone they don't have a voice, what that does to their life, and how you are robbing them of being a human being."
"Everybody's breathing in the room, so they qualify as a singer, because they're breathing."
"You don't need to be a professional soccer player to take a walk around the block and get some exercise. That's what I'm talking about in terms of singing."
"The world of light, the world of doing... we're very busy yang orientated, light people. But very seldom do we actually close our eyes and just listen."
"When people discover [their voice], they go from being a waitress to a manager in their café, or they get out of a crappy relationship, they ask their boss for a raise."
"These are health workers that were burnt out before COVID, and they came to choir every week online to be muted. If that doesn't tell anyone that's an essential service, what the hell does?"
"We need that element. It's missing from some people's lives. And it's got to happen if humanity is going to rise up."
"Let's not try and make this into anything, let's just trust our humanity, and trust the song, and trust that it will be something."
About LizLiz Lecoanet is an international vocal specialist and choir conductor who bridges the worlds of professional performance and community wellbeing. With training from London's opera houses and performance experience in New York, she brings a unique perspective to participatory music-making. As the first wellbeing choral conductor employed by New South Wales Health, she co-founded the Singing for Health programme with Dr Isabel Hansen, pioneering the integration of singing into healthcare settings.
Liz received the Hidden Hero of Sydney Award from the City of Sydney in 2014 for conducting Creativity Australia's With One Voice Choir, which grew to over 180 members and became the subject of the award-winning documentary "Sing Your Little Heart Out." She has worked internationally, including with Beth Israel Hospital in New York using sound for pain management, and continues to present at medical conferences on the health benefits of singing.
Today, Liz conducts multiple community choirs across Sydney, brings singing into workplaces to nurture connection and creativity, and works tirelessly—often voluntarily—to establish singing as a prescribable health intervention in Australia. Her approach emphasises listening over performing, presence over perfection, and the fundamental human right to use one's voice.
Connect with Lizhttps://lizlecoanet.com/
Episode Highlights[00:02:17] Liz's passionate declaration about "proving in court" what denying someone's voice does to their life sets the tone for the entire conversation
[00:09:21] The art of holding space for healthcare workers who desperately need permission to make mistakes
[00:12:01] How Liz had to unlearn perfectionism
[00:23:33] The yin-yang philosophy: Why the realm of sound and listening is the essential remedy to modern life
[00:31:47] Getting GPs singing at an international conference—the power of experiential proof
[00:39:14] "Can't Help Falling in Love" as the perfect stranger-uniting song: accessible range, no politics or religion
[00:41:27] Liz's magic wand wish: Singing spaces as normal as GP visits, supported by government, accessible to all
Call to ActionIf you're inspired by Liz's mission to make singing a prescribable health intervention, consider:
Finding or starting a community singing group in your areaSupporting the social prescribing movement in AustraliaSharing this episode with healthcare professionals and policymakersRemembering that if you're breathing, you qualify as a singerJoin the social movement to make music that matters—because as Liz reminds us, singing before speaking is our human heritage, and reclaiming our voices is essential for humanity to rise above the challenges of modern life.
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In this episode, Melissa speaks with Dr Francis Yapp, Senior Lecturer and Academic Director of the School of Music at the University of Canterbury in Christchurch, New Zealand. They explore the world of community music and its place in tertiary education. Francis shares his journey from classical training to community music leadership, discusses the innovative community music pathway at Canterbury, and addresses the ongoing debate about institutionalising grassroots musical practices.
Key Topics DiscussedDefining community music - Exploring what community music means and how it differs from traditional music education approachesFrancis's journey to community music - From classical cellist to community music leader, advocate, and educatorThe University of Canterbury's community music pathway - Origins, curriculum, and graduate outcomes of this innovative programmeTeaching philosophy - How group singing and cello teaching experiences shape Francis's pedagogical approachThe institutionalisation debate - Addressing concerns about bringing grassroots community music practices into academic settingsMāori musical practices - Discussion of waiata, kapa haka, and other traditional forms as examples of community musicMāori terms used in this episode:Waiata - Māori songs that serve various cultural purposes and are central to Māori identityKapa haka - Traditional Māori performing arts including singing, dancing, and chantingMarae - A communal and sacred meeting ground in Māori culture where formal greetings and discussions take placeTaonga puoro - Traditional Māori musical instruments, considered cultural treasuresKura Kaupapa Māori - Māori-language immersion schools operating under Māori custom and using Māori as the medium of instructionTe Reo Māori - The Māori languageConnect with GuestUniversity of Canterbury School of MusicConnect with Francis on LinkedInListen to Salve Regina -
In this episode, Melissa speaks with Phoene Cave, a registered music therapist, creative project manager, singer, trainer, and reflective practice supervisor who has spent two decades building social connections through music in some of the most challenging settings imaginable.
From working with female offenders in high-security prisons to pioneering Singing for Lung Health programs, Phoene brings a unique perspective on how music can create meaningful change. She's trained over 350 facilitators globally and is now bringing creative health toolkits to nursing students, helping healthcare workers discover the power of creativity for both self-care and patient care.
Phoene's philosophy of "creative compassionate disruption" informs everything she does, from her music therapy practice to her work with community musicians. In this conversation, she shares insights on establishing trust and safety, the importance of supervision and reflective practice, and why she believes compassion and empathy need to be balanced with healthy boundaries to prevent burnout.
Key Topics DiscussedSinging for Lung Health Training
How Phoene became a world specialist through learning on the job at Royal Brompton Hospital (2007)The evolution from in-person to online training during the pandemicTraining over 350 facilitators globally, including respiratory nurses and physiotherapistsThe importance of embodied practice and understanding respiratory issuesMusic Therapy vs Community Music
The subtle distinctions between working as a music therapist and a community musicianHow both can achieve similar outcomes, but with different levels of articulation and awarenessThe power of music to shift narratives and create alternative experiencesCreative Health Training for Healthcare Workers
Providing creative health toolkits to nursing students at Roehampton UniversityThe overwhelming soundscapes in hospitals and their impact on staff wellbeingTeaching self-care through breath, movement, creative writing, and musicHow creativity provides agency and encourages thinking outside the boxSupervision and Reflective Practice
Why supervision is vital for community musicians, especially those in challenging settingsThe difference between music therapy supervision and reflective practice for community musiciansCompassion fatigue and the importance of boundariesValues and Approach
Safety, trust, love, and presence as starting points with any groupThe importance of physical space and "resonance" - being aware 360 degreesCreative compassionate disruption as a guiding philosophyWorking in your "back body" - listening openly rather than being overly focusedPersonal Journey
Training as a jazz improviser at Goldsmiths and overcoming challenges as a female vocalistMultiple music therapy trainings creating an unusual and valuable perspectiveThe transition from performer to facilitator and finding fulfilment in giving others a voiceDiscovering neurodivergence later in lifeAbout GuestPhoene Cave is a registered music therapist, creative project manager, singer, trainer, and reflective practice supervisor in the creative health field. She has spent two decades working with diverse communities in nurseries, schools, further and higher education, concert halls, social housing, care homes, hospitals, and a detention centre and prison.
Phoene is recognised as a world specialist in Singing for Lung Health, having trained over 350 facilitators globally since 2015. Her work bridges the worlds of music therapy, community music, and healthcare, bringing creative approaches to both patient care and healthcare worker wellbeing.
Her philosophy of "creative compassionate disruption" informs all her work, from facilitating sessions in challenging environments to training the next generation of creative health practitioners. She is currently working on recording an album revisiting songs from her earlier career as a jazz vocalist.
Connect with GuestWebsite: www.phoenecave.co.ukThe Transit Collective: https://transitcollective.org/Episode Highlights[00:02:00] - The journey to becoming a Singing for Lung Health specialist - from answering an advertisement to training 350 facilitators globally
[00:06:15] - Learning on the job: the benefits and challenges of building the plane while flying it
[00:10:43] - What's the difference between music therapy and community music? A nuanced exploration
[00:15:18] - Establishing trust and safety: the starting point with any group, from prisoners to patients
[00:25:08] - Creative Health Toolkits for nursing students: transforming healthcare through creativity
[00:30:09] - The flow-on benefits when healthcare workers have creative tools for self-care
[00:35:04] - What is supervision in music therapy and why it matters for community musicians
[00:43:56] - Compassion fatigue: the danger of being a caring empath without boundaries
[00:46:25] - Why Phoene doesn't miss performing on stage (but is recording an album)
[00:49:50] - Advice to her 18-year-old self: "You have ADHD, and you're actually fine"
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In this special solo episode, Melissa announces the publication of her new book, "Making Music That Matters: Positive Music Leadership for Social Health". She explores how musicians can address the crisis of social connection through community music-making, offering evidence-based frameworks for building meaningful careers whilst fostering social health and wellbeing.
"This book is my attempt to bridge two realities—to show that there's a way to have a fulfilling, sustainable career in music whilst also addressing one of the most pressing challenges of our time: the loss of human connection."
EndorsementsProfessor Kim S. Cameron (University of Michigan)"This wonderfully creative book shows how music transforms lives, teams, organizations, and society."
Dr Dave Camlin (Trinity Laban, UK)"An essential read for emerging music leaders to help make sense of the complex and exciting traditions of socially transformational music making."
Professor Alexandra Lamont (University of Queensland)"Well-researched and theoretically-grounded ... explores the less-well studied worlds of those who lead and facilitate democratic participatory music making."
Book DetailsTitle: Making Music That Matters: Positive Music Leadership for Social HealthAuthor: Melissa ForbesPublisher: RoutledgePublication Date: 22 October 2025
ISBN Information:
Paperback: 9781032730660Hardback: 9781032724157eBook: 9781003426509 -
Singing as Collective Care: Trauma-Informed Choral Leadership with Joanna Brooke
In this episode, Melissa speaks with choral conductor and soprano Joanna Brooke about her unique approach to music-making that sits at the intersection of musical excellence and trauma-informed care. Joanna shares how she creates spaces where people can reconnect with their birthright to sing, moving beyond Western cultural barriers of musical elitism to foster genuine human connection through voice.
Drawing on her background in social work and over 10 years of choral conducting experience, Joanna discusses her innovative practice of reclaiming improvisation, shifting from production-focused to expression-centered music-making, and developing what she calls "singing as collective care" - the focus of her new PhD at the University of Melbourne.
Key Topics DiscussedConfronting Musical Elitism
How Western contexts create feelings of unworthiness around singingThe concept of singing as a birthright versus attachment to skill and abilityCreating spaces for people to shed learned limitations and reconnect with organic vocal expressionTrauma-Informed Musical Practice
Setting up spaces with trauma-informed principles without pathologizing the experienceThe importance of choice, safety, and never requiring solo participationViewing disconnection from singing as trauma work requiring restorationReclaiming Improvisation
Moving beyond jazz and classical virtuosity concepts to experimental, free-form singingUsing musical motifs and compositional structures as containers for safe explorationThe role of power-sharing and authentic participation by musical leadersFrom Production to Expression
Shifting focus from audience-oriented outcomes to present-moment experienceBalancing expression-centered goals with aesthetically pleasing resultsThe trauma-informed importance of ensuring beautiful collective soundFeminine Leadership in Music
Challenging masculine conducting stereotypes of control and certaintyExploring communal, open, fluid, and emotional leadership approachesThe gendered aspects of musical leadership and ethics of careArts and Health Integration
Bridging the gap between artistic practice and therapeutic outcomesThe distinction between art-making and therapy while acknowledging therapeutic benefitsCreating dialogue between arts and health practitionersAbout JoannaJoanna Brooke is a choral conductor and soprano based in Melbourne with over 10 years of experience leading choirs. She currently serves as musical director of the Monash University Choral Society and has worked as artistic director of the Jubilate Singers and with Gondwana Choirs.
With training in social work, Joanna's unique practice sits at the intersection of music and trauma-informed care. She leads research into trauma-informed creative arts interventions and presents at arts health conferences and events. In 2025, she commenced a PhD at the University of Melbourne exploring "singing as collective care."
Connect with JoannaFind Joanna on LinkedIn
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Jane York shares her insights on the importance of community music-making, creating safe and playful spaces for singers, and how language choices can either include or exclude participants. She discusses her approach to leading community singing groups, including her "show and tell" performance model that creates a more comfortable alternative to traditional concert performances.
Topics Discussed- The importance of community in our individualistic society- How community music provides connection across social barriers- Creating safe, playful environments for amateur musicians- The role of vulnerability and authenticity in music leadership- Depressurising the musical experience through humour and self-deprecation- Language choices that promote inclusivity in community music settings- Alternative performance models that prioritise connection over perfection- The transformative power of singing together
Notable Quotes- "Please make some loud mistakes, you know, because that's how we learn, and that's how we, you know, improve. So it's a constant reiteration of this is a safe place to just be learning and not perfect yet, and we only learn through being bad at something multiple times. And then we improve." - Jane York- "The way the voice, the sound, changes, the strength, the vulnerability depending on our lived experiences, depending on what we're going through - it is really beautiful." - Jane York- "I'm not very interested in that old fashioned dynamic of expert and the students. I hope that my groups feel like we're just on a journey together." - Jane York- "I love music, and that's the impression I want to leave - just my deep love of the music that I'm teaching them, and my love of singing as opposed to my expertise at singing." - Jane York
About Jane YorkJane York is the founder of several community music initiatives including contemporary community choir Just Holla, workshop project Big Feminist Sing, and the ukulele group Strumming Singers. Her music leadership roles span universities, health and arts organisations, and community centres. Jane is also a regular guest conductor for many choirs, an experienced festival choir leader, and workshop facilitator. During Melbourne's COVID lockdowns, she led online lunchtime live sing-alongs, maintaining musical community when people needed it most. Jane can often be found leading singing at protests and fundraisers, using music as a tool for social change and community building.
Connect with Jane- Jane on LinkedIn
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From wrong to strong: Positive psychology and character strengths for musicians
Both positive psychology and music leadership focus on human potential and growth. While traditional psychology often focuses on fixing what's wrong, positive psychology emphasizes developing what's strong - a principle that aligns perfectly with effective music leadership. Understanding our character strengths helps us lead authentically, create psychologically safe spaces for music making, and guide others toward meaningful musical experiences.
In this episode, Dr. Raina Murnak explores how positive psychology's emphasis on character strengths can transform music education and leadership. Whether leading a classroom, choir, or ensemble, knowing your strengths signature helps you lead from a place of authenticity rather than trying to emulate others.
Key Topics
What is positive psychology, and how does it differ from "toxic positivity"?Character strengths assessment and developmentBreaking free from the performer/teacher binary in music careersThe importance of authenticity in teaching and performanceChallenging traditional approaches to music educationNotable Quotes
"Nothing leads with its worst part and becomes something that we love. But music training ends up being that way.""Every moment that I perceived as a failure or something I wasn't really great at doing is because I was violating my own principles.""When you are really in flow with yourself, great things happen."Resources Mentioned
VIA Character Strengths Survey"Positive Psychology for Music Professionals: Character Strengths" by Raina Murnak and Nancy Kirsner (Routledge)Dr Rick Hanson's HEAL method for hardwiring positivity: Have the experience, Enrich it, Absorb it, Link itAbout Dr. Raina Murnak
Assistant Professor and Director of Contemporary Voice and Performance Artistry at the University of Miami's Frost School of Music. With over 20 years of collegiate music teaching experience, Dr. Murnak has developed innovative approaches to music education combining positive psychology with practical industry skills.
Follow Raina on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/rainasiforbeauty/
Raina's website
Episode Highlights
The importance of understanding and working with your character strengthsHow positive psychology can transform music educationBreaking down traditional barriers in music theory teachingThe value of authenticity in musical expressionExpanding career possibilities for musicians beyond performing and teachingConnect with Melissa Forbes on LinkedIn Join the conversation about positive music leadership and community music making and share your thoughts about this episode using #LeadingNotes
Leading Notes is a podcast exploring innovative approaches to music leadership and education. Find more episodes at https://leadingnotespodcast.podbean.com/
This project was made possible by The Winston Churchill Trust’s Impact Fund, supporting Churchill Fellows to achieve impact in Australia following their Fellowship travels. Read more about the Churchill Trust and other Fellowship stories at ChurchillFellowship.com.au
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In this powerful episode of Leading Notes, we speak with Melissa Gill, former program leader of the Absolutely Everybody Choir, about the transformative power of singing for mental health and wellbeing. Drawing from her unique background in both music and human resources, Melissa shares how she created safe spaces for people experiencing mental health challenges to rediscover their voices – literally and metaphorically.
With remarkable candor, Melissa discusses the delicate balance between maintaining professional boundaries and creating genuine human connections in wellbeing-focused choirs. She opens up about her own journey with burnout and the importance of self-care in this emotionally demanding work. Through stories of transformation and resilience, Melissa reveals how group singing can help people rebuild confidence, form meaningful relationships, and step back into their lives.
Join us for an honest conversation about the challenges and profound rewards of using music to create positive change in people's lives, and learn why Melissa describes this as "the best and most important work" of her life.
Melissa G is a busy lady, and you may hear her phone notifications vibrating during some of this conversation - but what she was saying at the same time was too good to edit most the notifications out!
Upbeat Arts
Sing Sing Sing Dementia Choir
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In this episode of Leading Notes, we speak with James Sills, a vocal leader, energizer, and connector who's revolutionizing how we think about group singing. From football terraces to corporate boardrooms, James shares how he's bringing the transformative power of singing to unexpected places, including his groundbreaking new BBC project 'Bantam of the Opera.'
Drawing from his journey from high school music teacher to innovative community music leader, James reveals how he creates safe spaces for authentic connection through singing, while maintaining musical integrity. He discusses his philosophy of 'meeting people where they are' and explains why singing is such a powerful tool for building community in our increasingly disconnected world.
Join us for an inspiring conversation about making singing accessible to all, the importance of running your own race, and how a portfolio career in community music can create both social impact and sustainable living. Whether you're a musician, educator, or simply curious about the power of collective singing, this episode offers fresh perspectives on using music to create meaningful connection.
https://www.james-sills.com/
https://www.thesofasingers.com/
https://www.james-sills.com/home/book
https://www.bbc.co.uk/cityofculture/bradford2025/bantam-of-the-opera/
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Episode Description
Chris Blain discusses his evolution from professional a cappella performer to community music facilitator, sharing insights about inclusive music making and the importance of creating spaces where everyone can participate. Learn how his work with Men in Suits and With One Voice is helping to rebuild singing traditions and foster positive masculinity through group singing.
Key Topics DiscussedCreating inclusive spaces for all abilities and backgroundsThe importance of joy over perfection in music makingBuilding community through men's singingStrategies for inclusive music facilitationThe role of music in fostering connection and wellbeingNotable Quotes"Live music is about changing the way people feel. And you don't do that with excellence. You do that with heart and with soul, and with connecting with people."
"It's never about the song, it's about the moment you're creating. The song is just a vehicle."
"Just lean towards joy... I just started leaning towards the things that made me happier and away from the things that made me tired and grumpy and cynical."
Resources MentionedMen in SuitsI've Got the House To Myself Today by Men in SuitsCreativity AustraliaSUADEAbout Chris BlainChoir Operations Coordinator at Creativity Australia and conductor of With One Voice Whitehorse. Musical director of men's choir Men In Suits and director of Melbourne Singing Events. Former founding director of Vocal Australia and operations manager at MusoMagic. Chris brings decades of experience in both professional performance and community music facilitation.
Connect with ChrisMen in SuitsConnect with MelissaLinkedInJoin the conversation about positive music leadership and community music makingShare your thoughts about this episode using https://leadingnotespodcast.podbean.com/This project was made possible by The Winston Churchill Trust’s Impact Fund, supporting Churchill Fellows to achieve impact in Australia following their Fellowship travels. Read more about the Churchill Trust and other Fellowship stories via thewebsite ChurchillFellowships.com.au
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As universities face what Vicki Bos calls a "crisis of connection," with international students increasingly disconnected from campus life, group singing emerges as a powerful tool for building meaningful relationships and fostering genuine belonging.
Episode DescriptionVicki Bos shares insights from her work leading UQ Voices, a mental health research choir at the University of Queensland. Learn how her five key community-building strategies through choral singing create meaningful connections among international and domestic students, moving beyond surface-level interactions to foster belonging and connection.
Key Topics DiscussedThe crisis of connection in universities and its impact on student wellbeing, especially international studentsFive strategies for community building: rapport, interaction, personalization, ownership, and achievementThe role of choir leaders in fostering mental health benefitsBuilding inclusive spaces for international studentsThe power of learning songs in multiple languagesResourcesTEDx TalkRead Vicki's research in Australian Voice here.Raise Your Voice International Student Choir FestivalAbout Vicki BosEducation professional development specialist and director of UQ Voices, the University of Queensland School of Psychology mental health research choir. With experience across Australia, Japan, Macau, Brazil, and Chile, Vicki specializes in using choral singing to teach language, build community, and improve mental health outcomes.
Connect with VickiOn FacebookConnect with MelissaLinkedInJoin the conversation about positive music leadership and community music makingShare your thoughts about this episode using https://leadingnotespodcast.podbean.com/This project was made possible by The Winston Churchill Trust’s Impact Fund, supporting Churchill Fellows to achieve impact in Australia following their Fellowship travels. Read more about the Churchill Trust and other Fellowship stories at ChurchillFellowship.com.au
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Melissa is joined by Emma Dean, an accomplished Australian musician, performer, and community choir leader. They discuss Emma's journey from classical violinist to professional performer, and her eventual transition to leading community music projects. Emma shares candidly about experiencing "cruel optimism" in the music industry and how hitting "rock bottom" led her to start the Cheep Trill community choir from her friend's veranda in Brisbane - a decision that would transform not only her career but her sense of self and wellbeing.
The conversation explores how leading community music provides a different kind of fulfilment from professional performing. Emma shares practical insights about inclusive teaching methods and creating safe spaces for musical expression. Her story illustrates how musicians can find meaningful work beyond traditional performance careers, while still maintaining their creativity and musical excellence.
Other resources mentioned during the show:
Musgrave, G., Gross, S. A., & Klein, M. (2024). The dark side of optimism: Musical dreams, belief, and gambling. Musicae Scientiae, 28(4), 634–648. https://doi.org/10.1177/10298649241230673
Gross, S. A., & Musgrave, G. (2020). Can music make you sick? Measuring the price of musical ambition. University of Westminster Press.
Upbeat Arts Absolutely Everybody Choir
Too Fat For Ballet
This one time at bandcamp
Zen Zen Zo
Rainbow Bop
This project was made possible by The Winston Churchill Trust’s Impact Fund, supporting Churchill Fellows to achieve impact in Australia following their Fellowship travels. Read more about the Churchill Trust and other Fellowship stories at ChurchillFellowship.com.au
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The musicians who make a real difference in our communities aren't household names – they're the leaders creating meaningful social connections through participatory music-making.
Join singer, researcher, and community music leader Dr Melissa Forbes as she explores how these remarkable but unsung musicians are revitalizing our social health. Drawing on insights from positive psychology and leadership research, each episode features conversations with music leaders who are building belonging through their work.
Whether you're a musician seeking meaningful work, a music educator training future leaders, or a health professional interested in music's social impact, discover practical strategies for creating positive change through music.
Let's make music that matters.
New episodes are released on the first of the month.
This project was made possible by The Winston Churchill Trust’s Impact Fund, supporting Churchill Fellows to achieve impact in Australia following their Fellowship travels. Read more about the Churchill Trust and other Fellowship stories at ChurchillFellowship.com.au
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Introducing a new podcast, Leading Notes, which showcases musicians leading the revitalization of social health in our communities.
This project was made possible by The Winston Churchill Trust’s Impact Fund, supporting Churchill Fellows to achieve impact in Australia following their Fellowship travels. Read more about the Churchill Trust and other Fellowship stories at ChurchillFellowship.com.au
