Episodes
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Ian Cinnamon didn’t set out to build a satellite company. After selling his first startup to Palantir, he became convinced the real bottleneck in space wasn’t launch or payloads, but the spacecraft itself. While rockets were getting cheaper and payloads more capable, satellite buses were still being built like bespoke engineering projects. Apex’s answer was simple in theory and incredibly difficult in practice: turn spacecraft into products.
Four years later, Apex is building standardized satellite platforms for commercial and national security customers, with a product lineup that now spans missions from LEO to GEO. We get into whether the satellite bus market is genuinely supply constrained, if standardized spacecraft become commodities or durable technology platforms, and how Starship, proliferated constellations, and rising defense demand are reshaping the economics of spacecraft manufacturing.
We also cover:
Why Ian believes spacecraft should become products instead of bespoke engineering programs Whether the satellite bus market is actually underbuilt or heading toward oversupply How Apex thinks about manufacturing, vertical integration, and scaling production Why larger satellites may make more sense in a world of cheap launch The capital strategy behind building one of the industry’s fastest-growing companiesCheck out Valley of Depth #045 on Apple, Spotify, or YouTube.
• Chapters •
00:00 – Trailer
00:55 – New CEO of Apex
02:29 – The Apex origin story
05:39 – Partnering with Max Benassi
07:13 – Successes and drawbacks of Apex's first 6 months
08:50 – Apex's current product set
10:36 – Misconceptions about how much mass you need in orbit
12:08 – Is the plan to build larger and larger satellites indefinitely?
13:11 – State of the bus market today
14:52 – Domestically oversupplied, globally undersupplied
16:31 – Apex's biggest opportunities on the commercial and national security side
18:50 – When should a company utilize Apex vs. building their own bus in-house?
19:46 – Apex's moat
21:12 – Juggling the bespoke government customer
22:15 – What the primes having in-house buses says about the market
23:07 – Commoditization of the bus vs. owning the complete mission
26:01 – Apex partnerships
27:27 – How many satellites are you building at a $100B company?
28:10 – Apex's three $200M fundraising rounds
32:05 – Is there another fundraising round incoming?
33:04 – Where Apex needs to be to seriously consider going public
34:58 – The road to 200 satellites per year
35:46 – Who is Apex losing deals to the most?
37:39 – Apex vs. K2
40:27 – How the push for heavy launch will affect Apex
42:15 – Apex's ability to get to space if SpaceX fully cuts commercial launches
44:35 – Is York an under or overvalued business?
46:36 – What keeps Ian up at night?
50:10 – When is Apex launching their own constellation?
51:06 – The missions that Apex could enable
52:30 – Is Ian still excited about asteroid mining?
• Show notes •
Apex’s’ website — https://www.apexspace.com/
Ian’s’ socials — https://x.com/IanCinnamon
Mo's socials — https://x.com/itsmoislam
Payload’s socials — https://x.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspace
Ignition’s socials — https://x.com/ignitionnuclear /
https://www.linkedin.com/company/ignition-nuclear/
Tectonic’s socials — https://x.com/tectonicdefense / https://www.linkedin.com/company/tectonicdefense/
Valley of Depth archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/• About us •
Valley of Depth is a podcast about the technologies that matter — and the people building them.
Brought to you by Arkaea Media, the team behind Payload (space), Ignition (nuclear energy), Decoding Bio (biotech) and Tectonic (defense tech), this show goes beyond headlines and hype. We talk to founders, investors, government officials, and military leaders shaping the future of national security and deep tech. From breakthrough science to strategic policy, we dive into the high-stakes decisions behind the world’s hardest technologies.
Payload: www.payloadspace.com Tectonic: www.tectonicdefense.com Ignition: www.ignition-news.com Decoding Bio: www.decodingbio.com -
Soren Monroe-Anderson grew up racing FPV drones before turning that obsession into Neros, a defense startup building low-cost, high-volume drone systems for the United States and its allies. What began with prototypes in a basement has become a 200-person company producing roughly 1,000 drones a week, with plans to build a factory capable of making one million annually.
The timing is difficult to ignore. Small drones have become one of the defining weapons of the war in Ukraine, China holds a massive production advantage and the Pentagon is now trying to catch up in a category it was slow to take seriously.
We get into why so many American drones failed in Ukraine, what separates a good demo from a battlefield-ready product, and why Soren believes the next generation of weapons will look more like consumer electronics than traditional defense systems. We also discuss the limits of autonomy, the difficulty of manufacturing at scale, and the moral weight of building kinetic systems.
We cover:
The widening drone production gap between the United States and China What Ukraine has taught Neros about battlefield performance, tactics, and product design Why scaling from prototypes to one million drones a year is an entirely different engineering problem Where autonomy helps, where it breaks, and why human pilots still matter How Soren thinks about talent, focus, capital, and the ethics of building weapons• Chapters •
00:00 – Plants at the factory
00:55 – Strawberry jam on a drone
04:45 – Soren's and Olaf's background
07:28 – First meeting with the DoD
08:54 – The key to Soren's early success
10:00 – How do you push the boundaries of a small drone?
11:39 – The most successful technology in Ukraine
13:45 – The future of warfare
15:09 – Chinese vs. US drone manufacturing capabilities
18:42 – Neros's facility and current production process
20:30 – What surprised Soren about building Neros
22:06 – How Soren thinks about competing in a well-funded market
23:50 – What makes the talent side so challenging
27:05 – Revenue concentration
28:12 – Are defense tech companies living up to their promises?
30:19 – Nervous or excited about the changing investor in defense tech?
32:12 – $120M raised and future capital needs in the near term
33:19 – Would Neros expand beyond drones?
34:22 – Where the primes fit in with manufacturing drones
36:30 – How Neros views AI in their products
41:41 – From professional drone racer to CEO
43:23 – Key players early on in Neros
45:28 – Does Soren still build drones or is he more focused on running Neros?
47:07 – Cultivating company culture
48:46 – Wrestling with building lethal systems
50:21 – Soren's health scare
51:28 – The morality critics on drone warfare
54:17 – How can the US win the drone production race?
55:45 – What keeps Soren up at night?
56:51 – Advice Soren would give to himself
58:05 – Factory of the future
59:31 – What Soren does for fun
• Show notes •
Neros’ website — https://www.neros.tech/
Soren’s’ socials — https://x.com/soren_ma
Mo's socials — https://x.com/itsmoislam
Payload’s socials — https://x.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspace
Ignition’s socials — https://x.com/ignitionnuclear /
https://www.linkedin.com/company/ignition-nuclear/
Tectonic’s socials — https://x.com/tectonicdefense / https://www.linkedin.com/company/tectonicdefense/
Valley of Depth archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/• About us •
Valley of Depth is a podcast about the technologies that matter — and the people building them.
Brought to you by Arkaea Media, the team behind Payload (space), Ignition (nuclear energy), Decoding Bio (biotech) and Tectonic (defense tech), this show goes beyond headlines and hype. We talk to founders, investors, government officials, and military leaders shaping the future of national security and deep tech. From breakthrough science to strategic policy, we dive into the high-stakes decisions behind the world’s hardest technologies.
Payload: www.payloadspace.com Tectonic: www.tectonicdefense.com Ignition: www.ignition-news.com Decoding Bio: www.decodingbio.comFootage from David Hambling (https://www.youtube.com/@davidhambling2609)
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Eric Romo spent his early career as employee #13 at SpaceX, left for nearly two decades, and came back to one of the hardest unsolved problems in the space economy: what happens after launch. Getting things to orbit is largely figured out. Moving them once they're there is not.
Impulse is now over $1B raised, embedded in the Golden Dome architecture, and with a GEO rideshare program booked out before a first flight. We get into how they got there, why Eric thinks every business model predicated on cheap Starship launch is broken, and what it actually means to be building in-space mobility at the moment GEO becomes a contested domain.
We cover:
The single Mira flight that changed Impulse's relationship with the Space Force Mira, Helios, and Caravan: three products, three markets but one key through line The Golden Dome partnership with Anduril and what it means to be embedded in that architecture How exposed American GEO assets actually are right now Why every Starship-dependent business model is broke The $4.26B valuation and what has to be true for that number to look cheap in ten years What the Impulse team debates most internally right now
• Chapters •
00:00 – Intro trailer
01:21 – How Eric ended up at Impulse
03:43 – How Eric got to SpaceX and his experience there
05:29 – Why Eric went on a hiatus from the space industry
09:49 – Is Musk focused on Mars or data centers now?
11:46 – Finding his way back to space
14:44 – Reuniting with Tom
17:43 – Why Tom is someone Eric could work for
20:22 – The vision of Impulse that Tom presented to Eric when he joined, and how it's changed
22:07 – Impulse's product set
26:42 – The pivot to GEO
33:13 – Caravan vs. the trend for larger-scale satellites
36:51 – Impulse's second thoughts about the economics of Mira and expanding
39:16 – Mira, the most maneuverable spacecraft in orbit
41:08 – Why does the government care about maneuverable satellites?
42:24 – Competitors and how to win the maneuverability race
45:25 – How exposed are GEO assets today?
47:52 – The biggest market for Impulse
49:39 – Impulse x Anduril
52:03 – Moon and Mars discussion at Impulse
54:02 – How Starship will fundamentally change the industry
1:00:01 – The opportunity for SpaceX competitors
1:03:49 – If Starship solves orbital refueling, will they become a competitive concern for Impulse?
1:05:35 – How Impulse is planning to use their recently raised $500M
1:07:00 – Impulse's existing capital needs, future fundraising, and will Impulse go public?
1:10:08 – How Impulse's products will evolve
1:11:06 – Biggest source of internal debate
1:13:14 – Overrated and underrated space technologies
1:15:56 – What Eric would say to his 23-year-old self at SpaceX
1:16:52 – What Eric does for fun
• Show notes •
Impulse’s website — https://www.impulsespace.com/
Eric’s’ socials — https://www.linkedin.com/in/eric-romo/
Mo's socials — https://x.com/itsmoislam
Payload’s socials — https://x.com/payloadspace /
https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspace
Ignition’s socials — https://x.com/ignitionnuclear / https://www.linkedin.com/company/ignition-nuclear/
Tectonic’s socials — https://x.com/tectonicdefense / https://www.linkedin.com/company/tectonicdefense/
Valley of Depth archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/
• About us •
Valley of Depth is a podcast about the technologies that matter — and the people building them. Brought to you by Arkaea Media, the team behind Payload (space), Ignition (nuclear energy), Decoding Bio (biotech) and Tectonic (defense tech), this show goes beyond headlines and hype. We talk to founders, investors, government officials, and military leaders shaping the future of national security and deep tech. From breakthrough science to strategic policy, we dive into the high-stakes decisions behind the world’s hardest technologies.
Payload: www.payloadspace.com Tectonic: www.tectonicdefense.com Ignition: www.ignition-news.com Decoding Bio: www.decodingbio.com -
Bridgit Mendler took an unconventional path to founding a space infrastructure company, but it led her to one of the industry’s most overlooked bottlenecks: the ground systems connecting satellites to Earth. Now, she’s building Northwood to modernize that critical layer of the space economy, the part that doesn’t get the headlines but matters as much as anything happening above it.
Northwood recently announced its new Prism product, and we get into the business model, the competitive landscape, the government bet, and one of the most critical questions: if Starlink and Kuiper have already built their own versions of what Northwood is selling, who’s actually buying?
We cover:
Why ground infrastructure is the overlooked bottleneck in the space economy The announcement of Prism and what it means for Northwood's ambitions beyond its first product The claim that Northwood will rival a terrestrial internet exchange by 2028 The Space Force contract and what the path to a second one looks like Cell tower or cloud bill: how Northwood actually makes money Her future vision for the industry and the infrastructure bet behind it
• Chapters •
00:00 – Trailer
00:44 – FCC Space Bureau
04:28 – How Bridgit decided to work on satellite networking
07:35 – From lake to concept
09:57 – Recent announcement at Northwood
12:20 – Where Northwood fits in the ground station as a service model
15:24 – The Northwood value proposition
16:42 – Average utilization of a ground station
18:10 – Northwood's flexibility
19:41 – Key goals in the next few years
22:15 – "I like to be bullish on space because that's what we're all here for"
22:52 – Biggest near-term opportunity
24:09 – How the competition shapes Northwood
25:50 – Segment of the market Bridgit believes has the biggest capacity for growth
26:45 – Northwood x Space Force: Satellite Control Network
29:48 – The state of Northwood today
32:09 – Competing for talent
33:22 – Revenue model with ground stations and how that will evolve
35:43 – What Northwood's next product set might look like
39:05 – Deployment of Northwood's $100M
40:03 – Investor conversations
42:55 – How Northwood fits in the changing landscape of the space industry with the Moon and SpaceX's IPO
45:17 – What keeps Bridgit up at night?
46:33 – Rapid-fire philosophical questions
• Show notes •
Northwood’s website — https://www.northwoodspace.io/
Ross’s’ socials — https://x.com/bridgitmendler
Mo's socials — https://x.com/itsmoislam
Payload’s socials — https://x.com/payloadspace /
https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspace
Ignition’s socials — https://x.com/ignitionnuclear / https://www.linkedin.com/company/ignition-nuclear/
Tectonic’s socials — https://x.com/tectonicdefense / https://www.linkedin.com/company/tectonicdefense/
Valley of Depth archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/
• About us •
Valley of Depth is a podcast about the technologies that matter — and the people building them. Brought to you by Arkaea Media, the team behind Payload (space), Ignition (nuclear energy), Decoding Bio (biotech) and Tectonic (defense tech), this show goes beyond headlines and hype. We talk to founders, investors, government officials, and military leaders shaping the future of national security and deep tech. From breakthrough science to strategic policy, we dive into the high-stakes decisions behind the world’s hardest technologies.
Payload: www.payloadspace.com Tectonic: www.tectonicdefense.com Ignition: www.ignition-news.com Decoding Bio: www.decodingbio.com -
This month, Mo and Jack host a live show on the SpaceX IPO, featuring investors and analysts breaking down the company’s valuation, business lines, and long-term growth story:
Howard Morgan (B Capital) Shaun Maguire (Sequoia Capital) Liz Stein (USIT) Dan Ives (Wedbush Securities)We discuss SpaceX’s IPO valuation, Starship’s progress, Starlink and Direct-to-Cell, orbital data centers, AI infrastructure, launch competition, public market appetite, and what it will take for SpaceX to grow into one of the most important companies in the world.
• About us •
Arkaea Media is building the definitive media, events, and intelligence platform for the future of the defense industrial base.
We deliver high-quality journalism and actionable insights that shape the business, policy, and investment decisions underpinning technically complex and highly regulated industries that influence global security.
Our portfolio of publications includes Payload, Tectonic, and Ignition.
• Payload: www.payloadspace.com • Tectonic: www.tectonicdefense.com • Ignition: www.ignition-news.com • Decoding Bio: www.decodingbio.com -
On this week's episode of Valley of Depth, we sit down with Ross Fubini, Managing Partner at XYZ Venture Capital, for a conversation about what it actually means to be early in a market nobody believed in.
Ross wrote the first check into Anduril in 2016, alongside Founders Fund, before defense tech was a category, before the term sheet wars, and before the word "primes" became a punchline on X. He did it because he'd spent years inside the Palantir network and understood something others couldn't see from the outside: that the company was an unparalleled crucible for entrepreneurial talent, churning out founders who knew how to sell technology to the hardest customer in the world. XYZ has since backed 40+ Palantir alumni across 130+ companies, and the firm now sits at over $1.5B under management.
We cover:
Why Ross knew Anduril would win from day one and why he still underestimated how big it would get The Palantir thesis: what he saw in that network in 2017 that everyone else missed How the defense tech landscape has gone from "nobody will return your calls" to drunk pirates chasing cash Where the market is overcrowded and where there’s significant whitespace How to invest in the SpaceX ecosystem without getting eaten by it What good board work actually looks like when a company is in trouble His case for why the best venture insight is almost always about a market shifting not just a great team• Chapters •
00:00 – Episode Trailer
00:46 – From engineer to investor
04:49 – What Ross saw in Palantir before anyone else was talking about them
06:43 – The founding story and pitch of XYZ
09:42 – How Ross's engineering background informs his investing
14:01 – The market moving around technology
16:14 – What Ross thought would be the outcome of his Anduril investment
17:40 – The truth in the assumption of the US government being a reliable customer in defense tech
23:54 – Anduril vs. other defense tech firms
26:48 – Sectors that Ross is hesitant on
28:35 – Capabilities on Ross's radar
30:02 – SpaceX IPO
33:26 – Investing in an industry with a dominant player
36:19 – How much is Ross focusing on space vs. everything else?
38:42 – Hardest moment Ross has had with a founder
42:10 – How the VC community has evolved since Ross's time at Netscape
44:41 – What does Ross do for fun?
• Show notes •
XYZ’s’ website — https://www.xyz.vc/
Ross’s’ socials — https://x.com/fubini
Mo's socials — https://x.com/itsmoislam
Payload’s socials — https://x.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspace
Ignition’s socials — https://x.com/ignitionnuclear / https://www.linkedin.com/company/ignition-nuclear/
Tectonic’s socials — https://x.com/tectonicdefense / https://www.linkedin.com/company/tectonicdefense/
Valley of Depth archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/
• About us •
Valley of Depth is a podcast about the technologies that matter — and the people building them. Brought to you by Arkaea Media, the team behind Payload (space), Ignition (nuclear energy), Decoding Bio (biotech) and Tectonic (defense tech), this show goes beyond headlines and hype. We talk to founders, investors, government officials, and military leaders shaping the future of national security and deep tech. From breakthrough science to strategic policy, we dive into the high-stakes decisions behind the world’s hardest technologies.
Payload: www.payloadspace.com Tectonic: www.tectonicdefense.com Ignition: www.ignition-news.com Decoding Bio: www.decodingbio.com -
On this week's episode of Valley of Depth, our first recorded in person, we sit down with Jason Kim, CEO of Firefly Aerospace, in the company's historic Blue Ghost mission control room in Cedar Park, Texas — the same room where 60 engineers watched their lander touch down at one meter per second last year.
From there, the conversation opens into how Jason actually thinks: about the Moon, about scale, and about being a "mission CEO" rather than a hardware or software one. Firefly went public in 2025, acquired defense software company SciTec within months, and now sits inside Golden Dome. Jason argues the market still prices the company as a pure launch player while he's building an end-to-end stack he puts in the same conversation as Anduril and Palantir.
We cover:
The last 30 seconds of the Blue Ghost Mission 1 landing, from inside the room where it happened Why Blue Ghost Mission 2 is harder: a three-spacecraft stack and the first US far-side landing Whether small launch makes money, and why Alpha is both a profit center and a strategic asset The Eclipse medium-lift bet, the Northrop partnership, and why Starship doesn't make everyone else obsolete Why the Moon matters, and how big the commercial lunar economy actually gets Why a hardware CEO bought a software company The valuation gap with Rocket Lab and what he believes the market hasn't priced in His honest read on SpaceX, China, the new-launch shakeout, and the path to a $100 billion company• Chapters •
00:00 - Trailer
00:53 – Blue Ghost Mission 1
04:41 – The bar for success for Blue Ghost Mission 1
07:16 – What is the new objective in Blue Ghost Mission 2?
11:49 – Jason coming into Firefly leadership
16:35 – Day 1 as Firefly CEO
18:53 – AE Industrial and how private equity informs Jason's mindset
21:02 – Product stack
22:34 – Demand signal from responsive launch
24:21 – Alpha and small launch economics
26:20 – Firefly's Eclipse
28:09 – How Starship will impact the launch market
29:41 – Viability of commercial launches
32:15 – Blue Ghost x Eclipse?
33:51 – Why does the Moon matter?
36:02 – Jason's commercial lunar economy predictions
38:02 – The future of Blue Ghost's missions
39:52 – Why Jason acquired Sitec
44:30 – Sitec in the Space Force's Golden Dome contracts
47:16 – Why shift Firefly to being a public company?
49:04 – How does Jason address stock price fluctuation internally?
50:49 – Do the public markets understand the space economy?
52:57 – Is Firefly just a launch company?
55:25 – What part of Firefly has the market not priced in yet?
56:50 – Firefly's strategy in a world where lift becomes effectively free
58:49 – Which launch companies will survive?
59:56 – The China question
1:00:33 – Is there a company out there that doesn't get enough attention?
1:01:53 – How Firefly is thinking about M&As
1:04:25 – The path to Firefly hitting a $100B valuation
1:05:25 – Jason Kim, the person
1:07:07 – Who does Jason call for advice?
1:07:57 – What Jason would tell 25-year-old Jason
1:11:58 – What Jason does for fun when not working on space
• Show notes •
Firefly’s’ website — https://fireflyspace.com/
Jason’s’ socials — https://x.com/Jason_Lil_Kim/
Mo's socials — https://x.com/itsmoislam
Payload’s socials — https://x.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspace
Ignition’s socials — https://x.com/ignitionnuclear / https://www.linkedin.com/company/ignition-nuclear/
Tectonic’s socials — https://x.com/tectonicdefense / https://www.linkedin.com/company/tectonicdefense/
Valley of Depth archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/• About us •
Valley of Depth is a podcast about the technologies that matter — and the people building them. Brought to you by Arkaea Media, the team behind Payload (space), Ignition (nuclear energy), Decoding Bio (biotech) and Tectonic (defense tech), this show goes beyond headlines and hype. We talk to founders, investors, government officials, and military leaders shaping the future of national security and deep tech. From breakthrough science to strategic policy, we dive into the high-stakes decisions behind the world’s hardest technologies.
Payload: www.payloadspace.com Tectonic: www.tectonicdefense.com Ignition: www.ignition-news.com Decoding Bio: www.decodingbio.com -
This month, Mo and Jack host a live show on the future of Commercial LEO Destinations, featuring leaders building the next generation of space stations:
Marshall Smith (Voyager Technologies / Starlab) Jonathan Cirtain (Axiom Space)We discuss station development progress, business models, NASA's role, private astronaut missions, station economics, the transition from the ISS, and what it will take to build a sustainable commercial presence in LEO.
• About us •
Arkaea Media is building the definitive media, events, and intelligence platform for the future of the defense industrial base. We deliver high-quality journalism and actionable insights that shape the business, policy, and investment decisions underpinning technically complex and highly regulated industries that influence global security.
Our portfolio of publications (so far) includes Payload (space) and Tectonic (defense tech).
Payload: www.payloadspace.com Tectonic: www.tectonicdefense.com Ignition: www.ignition-news.com Decoding Bio: www.decodingbio.com -
The United States hasn't flown a Mach 3-plus reusable aircraft since the SR-71 was retired in 1990. Hermeus wants to change that and they want to do it faster, cheaper, and with a fraction of the capital. This week we sit down with Zach Shore, newly appointed CEO, at the moment the company's bet is starting to pay off.
Zach walks us through his evolution from VP of Growth to CEO, the company's record-breaking $219 million DIU contract, and a $350 million raise that has Hermeus entering its most consequential chapter yet. But the real conversation is about the machine behind the machine …how a SpaceX-trained engineering team is iterating on aircraft the way rockets were once iterated on, and why Mach 3 might be the unlock that makes Mach 5 a foregone conclusion.
We cover:
Why Zach took the CEO role and what AJ's executive chairman mandate actually looks like The turbine-based combined cycle engine architecture and why Mach 3 is the hardest problem between here and Mach 5 The autonomy stack philosophy: why Hermeus builds trucks, not brains The China threat, the allied opportunity, and why Australia is the most important international partner The commercial Mach 5 passenger vision and why defense has to come first…and much more.
• Chapters •
00:00 - Trailer
00:56 – From President to CEO
04:03 – The largest DIU contract ever awarded ($219M)
07:46 – Building the fastest aircraft in the world
11:13 – The operational gap a Mach 5 aircraft can fulfill
13:25 – The road to Mach 5
15:31 – Turbine vs. ramjet engine
18:06 – Is the turbine/ramjet engine hybrid novel?
19:03 – Philosophical concession
20:59 – Overcoming the Mach 3 plateau
23:07 – Where the primes stand on supersonic
25:10 – Thermal challenges of Mach 5
26:50 – Autonomy
29:20 – A manned Mach 5 craft
31:38 – Hermeus's current manufacturing capability and how it'll evolve
34:26 – Biggest opportunity for creating Hermeus customers
37:08 – Adversary capability
40:14 – Is commercial Mach 5 in the near future?
42:40 – Slowdown in innovation
45:40 – Do we need to overhaul the FAA?
47:34 – Aviation in 2035 if Hermeus succeeds
48:47 – Atlanta vs. LA
50:54 – What does Zach do for fun?
• Show notes •
Hermeus’ website — https://www.hermeus.com/
Hermes’ socials — https://x.com/hermeuscorp
Mo's socials — https://x.com/itsmoislam
Payload’s socials — https://x.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspace
Ignition’s socials — https://x.com/ignitionnuclear / https://www.linkedin.com/company/ignition-nuclear/
Tectonic’s socials — https://x.com/tectonicdefense / https://www.linkedin.com/company/tectonicdefense/
Valley of Depth archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/
• About us •
Valley of Depth is a podcast about the technologies that matter — and the people building them. Brought to you by Arkaea Media, the team behind Payload (space), Ignition (nuclear energy), Decoding Bio (biotech) and Tectonic (defense tech), this show goes beyond headlines and hype. We talk to founders, investors, government officials, and military leaders shaping the future of national security and deep tech. From breakthrough science to strategic policy, we dive into the high-stakes decisions behind the world’s hardest technologies.
Payload: www.payloadspace.com Tectonic: www.tectonicdefense.com Ignition: www.ignition-news.com Decoding Bio: www.decodingbio.com -
Commercial geospatial intelligence has moved from nice-to-have imagery to core national security infrastructure. And Vantor is trying to reposition itself for that new era.
On this week’s episode of Valley of Depth, we sit down with Dan Smoot, CEO of Vantor, to unpack the company’s transformation from a legacy satellite imagery provider into a space-based intelligence platform serving defense, intelligence, international, and enterprise customers.
The shift is bigger than a rebrand. Vantor is betting that the future of geospatial intelligence is not just sharper pixels from orbit, but the ability to turn space-based data into software, AI-driven insights, autonomous navigation, sovereign intelligence systems, and real-time operational decision-making.
We cover:
How Vantor is moving beyond imagery into space-based intelligence Why the Maxar rebrand was necessary, even if controversial How commercial GEOINT is becoming a national security layer How Vantor’s 3D data supports autonomous systems and GPS-denied operations Why partnerships with companies like Anduril matter for the future battlefield How Ukraine changed the government’s view of commercial imagery Where Vantor fits into Golden Dome and missile defense Why sovereign geospatial capabilities are becoming a global priority…and much more.
• Chapters •
00:00 - Trailer & Intro
01:06 – Maxar Intelligence
02:39 – An outside view coming into the space industry
05:12 – The Maxar rebrand
09:00 – Product offerings and customers
12:15 – Vantage and Pulse
16:31 – Does being under a private equity firm change how Vantor operates?
18:53 – Vantor's partnership with Anduril
21:41 – EOCL (Earth Observation Commercial Layer)
25:24 – Cultural impact of commercial intelligence on global conflicts
29:46 – Vantor x Golden Dome architecture
30:48 – How Chinese tech compares to the US
33:25 – Capabilities of Tensorglobe that a customer could deploy today
36:17 – Raptor
38:42 – When will we have a sub-15-minute revisit at sub-20cm resolution?
43:35 – The winning valuation of Vantor for Advent
47:51 – Lanteris's revenue multiples
51:28 – What Dan would change about commercial EO and policy today
53:51 – What does Dan do for fun?• Show notes •
Vantor’s website — https://vantor.com
Vantor’s’ socials — https://x.com/vantortech
Mo's socials — https://x.com/itsmoislam
Payload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspace
Ignition’s socials — https://twitter.com/ignitionnuclear /
https://www.linkedin.com/company/ignition-nuclear/
Tectonic’s socials — https://twitter.com/tectonicdefense / https://www.linkedin.com/company/tectonicdefense/
Valley of Depth archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/
• About us •
Valley of Depth is a podcast about the technologies that matter — and the people building them. Brought to you by Arkaea Media, the team behind Payload (space), Ignition (nuclear energy), and Tectonic (defense tech), this show goes beyond headlines and hype. We talk to founders, investors, government officials, and military leaders shaping the future of national security and deep tech. From breakthrough science to strategic policy, we dive into the high-stakes decisions behind the world’s hardest technologies.
Payload: www.payloadspace.com Tectonic: www.tectonicdefense.com Ignition: www.ignition-news.com -
This month, Mo and Jack host a two-hour live show featuring six leaders from the space industry:
Ian Cinnamon (Apex) 05:18 • Philip Johnston (Starcloud) 20:18 • Eric Romo (Impulse) 35:11 • Karan Kunjur (K2 Space) 50:26 • Shahin Farshchi (Lux Capital) 1:05:28 • Delian Asparouhov (Varda / Founders Fund) 1:22:00 • Molly O'Shea (Sourcery) 1:41:25We discuss satellite manufacturing, orbital data centers, in-space mobility, high-power buses, venture capital, and the future shape of the space economy.
• About us •
Arkaea Media is building the definitive media, events, and intelligence platform for the future of the defense industrial base.
We deliver high-quality journalism and actionable insights that shape the business, policy, and investment decisions underpinning technically complex and highly regulated industries that influence global security.Our portfolio of publications (so far) includes Payload (space) and Tectonic (defense tech).
Payload: www.payloadspace.com Tectonic: www.tectonicdefense.com Ignition: www.ignition-news.com -
The U.S. military doesn’t have enough pilots—and automation may be the only way to scale airpower. At the same time, Skyryse is formally launching its new defense unit, bringing its software-defined flight system, SkyOS, into military applications.
On this week’s episode of Valley of Depth, we sit down with Mark Groden, CEO of Skyryse, to unpack how the company is building a universal operating system for aircraft that can dramatically simplify flight, reduce pilot burden, and enable fully autonomous operations when needed.
The goal is ambitious: turn helicopters and airplanes into flexible, optionally piloted systems that can shift between crewed and uncrewed missions—unlocking a new model for force projection, logistics, and survivability.
The conversation spans the tragic accident that inspired Mark to start Skyryse, why aviation’s biggest safety problem is really a technology problem, how SkyOS works across platforms from Robinson helicopters to Black Hawks, and why defense demand for autonomy is accelerating faster than most people realize.
We cover:
How SkyOS transforms aircraft into software-defined systems Why helicopters are so difficult and dangerous to fly today What Skyryse Defense is building for crewed, uncrewed, and autonomous missions How optionally piloted aircraft could reshape military logistics and ISR How Skyryse’s Series C positions the company for scale Why the future battlefield requires simpler, more adaptable systems…and much more.
• Chapters •
00:00 – Intro
01:34 – The accident that changed Mark's life and mission
04:10 – A PhD in sensor data fusion
06:54 – The evolution of Skyryse
10:09 – Product stack
15:30 – New business unit
17:12 – Skyryse's partnership with the Army
19:39 – Why even build for humans?
21:35 – The software distribution of SkyOS
26:40 – Guinness World Record for autorotation
30:58 – Training commercial helicopter pilots with Skyryse
33:52 – Commercial picture for Skyryse
37:43 – Addressing the pilot shortage in the military
42:22 – Commercial regulations
45:39 – What certification unlocks for Skyryse
47:19 – Military regulatory process
48:53 – What Skyryse plans to do with their Series C funding
51:27 – How people's lives change if Skyryse is everywhere in 20 years
53:30 – Can you buy the Skyryse helicopter?
54:05 – What Mark does for fun when he's not building helicopters• Show notes •
Skyryse’s website — https://skyryse.com/
Skyryse’s’ socials — https://x.com/skyryse
Mo's socials — https://x.com/itsmoislam
Payload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspace
Ignition’s socials — https://twitter.com/ignitionnuclear /
https://www.linkedin.com/company/ignition-nuclear/
Tectonic’s socials — https://twitter.com/tectonicdefense / https://www.linkedin.com/company/tectonicdefense/
Valley of Depth archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/• About us •
Valley of Depth is a podcast about the technologies that matter — and the people building them. Brought to you by Arkaea Media, the team behind Payload (space), Ignition (nuclear energy), and Tectonic (defense tech), this show goes beyond headlines and hype. We talk to founders, investors, government officials, and military leaders shaping the future of national security and deep tech. From breakthrough science to strategic policy, we dive into the high-stakes decisions behind the world’s hardest technologies.
Payload: www.payloadspace.com Tectonic: www.tectonicdefense.com Ignition: www.ignition-news.com -
Yesterday we launched our first-ever live show from the New York Stock Exchange (NYSE) called “The Space & Defense Market Update.” We brought together investors and analysts operating at every stage of the capital stack to stress-test what's real and what’s priced in.
Capital markets are moving faster than anyone has clean answers for. Data centers in space are attracting serious money and serious skepticism in equal measure. Public market valuations are demanding a level of conviction that leaves little room for error. And NASA just rewrote its lunar roadmap while an astronaut crew prepares to fly around the Moon for the first time in fifty years. Our guests this month are:
Mike Annunziata, Founder & Managing Partner of Also Capital Mark Danchak, Co-Founder & General Partner of General Innovation Capital Partners Mariana Perez Mora, Director, Bank of America Equity ResearchWe get into:
Why data centers in space will be willed into existence What early-stage investors can see in space and defense founders that later-stage capital only appreciates once it's obvious How public markets are actually pricing space and defense right now The Palantir valuation framework: what you have to believe, and whether those beliefs hold NASA's new lunar roadmap: Moon base over Gateway, crewed missions twice a year, and what it means for the commercial players already in the queue Why Artemis II launching tomorrow is a bigger deal than most people are treating it• Show notes •
Mo's socials — https://x.com/itsmoislam
Jack’s socials — https://x.com/JackKuhr
Payload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspace
Ignition’s socials — https://twitter.com/ignitionnuclear /
https://www.linkedin.com/company/ignition-nuclear/
Tectonic’s socials — https://twitter.com/tectonicdefense / https://www.linkedin.com/company/tectonicdefense -
Scott Sanders has seen the defense tech industry from just about every angle. As a Marine officer, he watched promising capability stall somewhere between a program office and the field. As an early employee at Anduril, he helped build one of the companies that bet it could do better.
Now, as Chief Growth Officer at Forterra, he's making that same bet on autonomous ground systems, a market that's been promised for years and is only now being put to the test. In this episode of Valley of Depth, we press Scott on what's actually working, what isn't, and where the hype is running ahead of the hardware.
We get into:
Why the gap between a cool tech demo and a real defense business is wider than most founders think What investors still fundamentally misunderstand about defense timelines and business model risk Why most defense startups won't become primes and what the ones that do have in common How Forterra is approaching autonomy, mesh networking, and distributed operations at the tactical edge What it looks like to actually get capability to operators, not just into a program of record The procurement dysfunction that everyone in the room knows about and almost no one fixes• Chapters •
00:00 – Intro
00:50 – Sun Valley
03:14 – Scott’s time in the Philippines
09:04 – Why Scott joined Anduril
14:01 – Working with the government: then vs now
17:34 – What investors should look for in defense tech
20:27 – Forterra in 2022 vs 2026
25:12 – Forterra’s products today
26:39 – Autonomy-as-a-service model
30:13 – Hardware and software
32:36 – Commercial end users
33:52 – Why acquire mesh networking from goTenna?
37:27 – Current programs and contracts
40:55 – Fully autonomous systems in contested environments
44:30 – Hiring in a competitive defense tech industry
47:25 – How many SVDG companies could become primes?
47:52 – Exciting technologies for investors
51:46 – Forterra in 7–8 years
53:34 – What Scott does for fun• Show notes •
Forterra’s website — https://www.forterra.com/
Forterra’ socials — https://x.com/ForterraDrive=
Mo's socials — https://x.com/itsmoislam
Payload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspace
Ignition’s socials — https://twitter.com/ignitionnuclear /
https://www.linkedin.com/company/ignition-nuclear/
Tectonic’s socials — https://twitter.com/tectonicdefense / https://www.linkedin.com/company/tectonicdefense/
Valley of Depth archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/• About us •
Valley of Depth is a podcast about the technologies that matter — and the people building them. Brought to you by Arkaea Media, the team behind Payload (space), Ignition (nuclear energy), and Tectonic (defense tech), this show goes beyond headlines and hype. We talk to founders, investors, government officials, and military leaders shaping the future of national security and deep tech. From breakthrough science to strategic policy, we dive into the high-stakes decisions behind the world’s hardest technologies.
Payload: www.payloadspace.com Tectonic: www.tectonicdefense.com Ignition: www.ignition-news.com -
In this episode of Valley of Depth, we sit down with Mark Boggett, CEO of Seraphim Space, to break down one of the biggest questions in the industry right now: are we still early in the space economy, or has the easy money already been made?
Mark has built one of the first dedicated space-focused venture firms, before the category became institutional. We discuss how the market has evolved from uncertain capital availability to a more mature ecosystem where large-scale funding is now expected and why that shift is unlocking a new phase of growth.
We cover:
Why the space economy is still in its early innings of value creation How capital availability has transformed space investing over the last decade Seraphim’s strategy and why they avoid launch, space travel, and lunar markets The rise of European defense demand and the emergence of “neo-primes” How space companies are becoming real, profitable businesses Where the market may be overbuilt vs. underinvested Why vertically integrated constellations remain the core opportunity What the next phase of the space economy looks like• Chapters •
00:00 – Intro
00:38 – What current moment are we in in the space economy?
01:33 – Mark's history with the space industry and the changes he's seen
02:50 – What prompted Mark to start taking bets on the space industry?
07:52 – Early pushback in space investing
10:27 – How do you convince investors to invest in space companies if the biggest company (SpaceX) is still not public?
13:27 – Seraphim's strategy for their funds
21:23 – Seraphim's competitive moat
24:52 – Where does Seraphim go from a founder's focused approach to a more guided one?
30:31 – IC EYE
36:34 – Space investment trends that Mark sees in Europe
41:54 – US vs Europe future investments
45:50 – Understanding American vs European aerospace company valuations
47:56 – Where are we currently overbuilt?
54:34 – Why doesn't Seraphim invest in the Moon and Mars and will this change?
01:00:00 – What Mark does for fun• Show notes •
Seraphim’s website — https://seraphim.vc/
Seraphim’s socials — https://x.com/seraphim_space
Mo's socials — https://x.com/itsmoislam
Payload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspace
Ignition’s socials — https://twitter.com/ignitionnuclear /
https://www.linkedin.com/company/ignition-nuclear/
Tectonic’s socials — https://twitter.com/tectonicdefense / https://www.linkedin.com/company/tectonicdefense/
Valley of Depth archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/• About us •
Valley of Depth is a podcast about the technologies that matter — and the people building them. Brought to you by Arkaea Media, the team behind Payload (space), Ignition (nuclear energy), and Tectonic (defense tech), this show goes beyond headlines and hype. We talk to founders, investors, government officials, and military leaders shaping the future of national security and deep tech. From breakthrough science to strategic policy, we dive into the high-stakes decisions behind the world’s hardest technologies.
Payload: www.payloadspace.com Tectonic: www.tectonicdefense.com Ignition: www.ignition-news.com -
In this episode of Valley of Depth, we dive into Aalyria’s newly announced $100 million raise at a $1.3 billion valuation with cofounder and CTO Brian Barritt and unpack why investors are betting big on the future of networks that don’t sit still.
Aalyria is building two core technologies born inside Google: Spacetime, a software orchestration layer designed to manage networks in motion, and Tightbeam, a laser communications system delivering fiber-like speeds through the atmosphere. Together, they aim to solve one of the hardest infrastructure challenges in aerospace and defense: how to coordinate satellites, aircraft, drones, ships, and ground systems into a seamless “network of networks.”
The conversation spans laser physics, diffraction challenges in space-to-ground links, feeder link bottlenecks in mega-constellations, and why routing data across moving infrastructure is fundamentally different than routing across fixed networks.
We cover:
Why Aalyria’s $100M raise signals a shift from R&D to deployment What “network in motion” really means and why it’s so hard How laser communications can reach 100 gigabits per second through atmosphere The technical challenge of Earth-to-space vs. space-to-Earth optical links Why interoperability has been a 40-year ambition inside the DoD How open APIs could become the connective tissue for JADC2 and beyond What resilience and roaming look like in hybrid satellite architectures Why optical ground stations require orchestration software to scale• Chapters •
00:00 - Intro
00:59 – The history of Aalyria
02:47 – Aalyria's Spacetime
06:09 – Building the connective software stack that links all of Aalyria's technology together
07:12 – The non-geostationary network problem
11:12 – The rebirth of Loon Technology
14:50 – How Tightbeam ties in to Aalyria
17:21 – 100gb/s through the atmosphere
19:42 – Brian's mandate as CTO when Aalyria forms
20:37 – State of Tightbeam at formation of Aalyria
22:17 – Why can't other companies do what Spacetime does yet?
26:05 – The significance of having different architectures with different source codes talk to each
other without modification
28:21 – How Aalyria integrates a new customer's network
31:05 – What is a long distance for Tightbeam and customer reaction to demos
32:48 – Who has Aalyria surprised the most with their demos?
34:28 – What has prevented the government from making a network of networks?
39:14 – Why wouldn't a space version of the Tightbeam terminal not work?
42:01 – How Aalyria is thinking about customer adopting Tightbeam
45:15 – Aalyria in the defense industry
47:05 – Aalyria's commercial aspects
48:30 – Aalyria's latest investment round
51:39 – Next milestones
53:00 – What keeps Brian up at night?
54:00 – Longterm vision for Aalyria
56:16 – What does Brian do for fun?
• Show notes •
Aalyria’s website — https://www.aalyria.com/
Mo's socials — https://x.com/itsmoislam
Payload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspace
Ignition’s socials — https://twitter.com/ignitionnuclear /
https://www.linkedin.com/company/ignition-nuclear/
Tectonic’s socials — https://twitter.com/tectonicdefense / https://www.linkedin.com/company/tectonicdefense/
Valley of Depth archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/
• About us •
Valley of Depth is a podcast about the technologies that matter — and the people building them. Brought to you by Arkaea Media, the team behind Payload (space), Ignition (nuclear energy), and Tectonic (defense tech), this show goes beyond headlines and hype. We talk to founders, investors, government officials, and military leaders shaping the future of national security and deep tech. From breakthrough science to strategic policy, we dive into the high-stakes decisions behind the world’s hardest technologies.
Payload: www.payloadspace.com Tectonic: www.tectonicdefense.com Ignition: www.ignition-news.com -
In this episode of Valley of Depth, we sit down with David Tearse, co-founder and CEO of Karman Industries, to explore a piece of the AI boom that rarely gets attention: thermal infrastructure.
As hyperscale data centers grow into multi-gigawatt “AI factories,” the limiting factor is no longer just chips or capital — it’s how efficiently we can move and reject heat. David explains how Karman’s Heat Processing Unit (HPU) reimagines cooling from first principles, bringing aerospace-grade turbomachinery and modern power electronics to a decidedly unglamorous but critical layer of the AI stack.
The conversation moves from the physics of heat to the politics of data centers, and ultimately to why thermal efficiency may become a quiet national security advantage.
We discuss:
Why thermal management—not chips—may be the next bottleneck in the AI stackHow Karman’s HPU replaces traditional chillers and dry coolers outside the data centerHow much additional compute Karman can unlock from the same power inputWhy CO₂ refrigerant de-risks data center builds from a regulatory standpointHow Karman thinks about reliability, uptime, and “aerospace-style” engineeringWhy data centers are becoming a national security issueWhere Karman could expand beyond data centers—nuclear, geothermal, and beyond…and much more.
• Chapters •
00:00 – Intro
00:51 – Elara Nova ad
01:21 – Karman Industries mascot
02:28 – How would David describe himself?
05:01 – The original insight that became Karman Industries
06:31 – What do people underestimate about thermal management?
07:26 – The story behind the name
08:21 – How David and co-founder CJ Karla ended up working together
11:15 – Why is now the right time to be solving thermal management?
15:13 – Where does the heat go today?
16:31 – Energy usage for compute vs cooling
17:32 – Energy Savings with Karman's heat processing units (HPUs)
18:05 – Why C02?
20:48 – Replacing vs integration
21:37 – Regulatory side
24:42 – Karman's customer pipeline
26:33 – Reliability
28:59 – Engineering challenges
30:39 – What comes next for Karman
31:55 – Is thermal management a national security issue?
33:21 – David's thoughts on rerouting heat
36:23 – HPUs in space
37:58 – The company culture that allows for building relaiable solutions quickly
44:35 – Milestones for Karman in the next couple of years
47:00 – What does David do for fun?
• Show notes •
Karman’s website —https://www.karmanindustries.com/
David’s socials — https://x.com/7earse
Mo's socials — https://x.com/itsmoislam
Payload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspace
Ignition’s socials — https://twitter.com/ignitionnuclear /
https://www.linkedin.com/company/ignition-nuclear/
Tectonic’s socials — https://twitter.com/tectonicdefense / https://www.linkedin.com/company/tectonicdefense/
Valley of Depth archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/
• About us •
Valley of Depth is a podcast about the technologies that matter — and the people building them. Brought to you by Arkaea Media, the team behind Payload (space), Ignition (nuclear energy), and Tectonic (defense tech), this show goes beyond headlines and hype. We talk to founders, investors, government officials, and military leaders shaping the future of national security and deep tech. From breakthrough science to strategic policy, we dive into the high-stakes decisions behind the world’s hardest technologies.
Payload: www.payloadspace.comTectonic: www.tectonicdefense.comIgnition: www.ignition-news.com -
In this episode of Valley of Depth, we sit down with Jack Kuhr, Payload Pro’s Research Director, to unpack what SpaceX has become on the eve of what could be the largest IPO in history. What began as a launch company has evolved into a vertically integrated platform spanning launch, satellites, global connectivity, and potentially AI and compute in space.This is the first in a series of conversations where we’ll regularly update our audience on the latest developments shaping SpaceX and its impact on the broader space economy.
We discuss:
How Starlink has overtaken launch as SpaceX’s primary growth engineWhy Starlink’s constraints are more likely terminals, regulation, and physics—not satellitesHow international markets are powering the next phase of Starlink’s expansionWhy aviation and maritime are the most underappreciated Starlink verticalsWhether Starlink “Lite” can meaningfully take share from traditional ISPsHow Starship and Starlink V3 could upend Falcon 9 economicsWhy the SpaceX–xAI merger points to a fully integrated space, connectivity, and AI stack• Chapters •
00:00 - Intro
01:09 - Jack's role at Payload and what is it
04:06 - Jack's revenue model for SpaceX
08:06 - Launch and Starlink
09:23 - Is SpaceX privatizing launch or is there less demand?
12:07 - Starlink's current revenue runway trajectory
14:31 - 2026 projects and potential growth pains
16:41 - Starlink constraints
19:00 - US vs international customers
19:53 - Starlink terminal sales
21:10 - What is currently under appreciated about Starlink's verticals?
22:52 - Starlink Light
24:34 - Competition from GEO broadband providers
33:07 - Starship
34:45 - When will Starlink launch their first commercial, non Starlink payloads
38:22 - Is SpaceX serious about space based data centers?
42:06 - SpaceX x Tesla x xAI• Show notes •
Payload Pro’s website — https://pro.payloadspace.com/
Jack’s socials — https://x.com/JackKuhr
Mo's socials — https://x.com/itsmoislam
Payload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspace
Ignition’s socials — https://twitter.com/ignitionnuclear /
https://www.linkedin.com/company/ignition-nuclear/
Tectonic’s socials — https://twitter.com/tectonicdefense / https://www.linkedin.com/company/tectonicdefense/
Valley of Depth archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/
• About us •
Valley of Depth is a podcast about the technologies that matter — and the people building them. Brought to you by Arkaea Media, the team behind Payload (space), Ignition (nuclear energy), and Tectonic (defense tech), this show goes beyond headlines and hype. We talk to founders, investors, government officials, and military leaders shaping the future of national security and deep tech. From breakthrough science to strategic policy, we dive into the high-stakes decisions behind the world’s hardest technologies.
Payload: www.payloadspace.comTectonic: www.tectonicdefense.comIgnition: www.ignition-news.com -
We’re excited to launch a very special edition of Valley of Depth, recorded live from the historic vault deep beneath the New York Stock Exchange (NYSE). Going forward, we’ll be returning to the NYSE each month to host a series of conversations from the heart of global capital markets with the leaders building the next generation of critical infrastructure.
In this installment, we sit down with John Serafini, CEO of Hawkeye 360, a company quietly reshaping how governments see and understand the world. While many space companies focus on imagery or communications, Hawkeye 360 is doing something different: listening. By mapping radio-frequency emissions from orbit, the company is turning invisible signals into actionable intelligence, revealing patterns of human behavior that imagery alone can’t capture.
We discuss:
How space-based RF mapping changes what “global transparency” actually meansWhy signals intelligence is uniquely tied to human activity and intentHow Hawkeye’s multi-satellite architecture enables precise geolocation at scaleWhat it takes to detect dark vessels, GPS jamming, and spoofing in near real timeWhy RF data, software, and proprietary signal libraries form a durable competitive moatHow commercial SIGINT is becoming core infrastructure for governments globally• Chapters •
00:00 - Intro
00:58 - What makes Hawkeye 360's satellites so special?
02:45 - Why is having RF capability important today
04:51 - What were the limitations of RF satellites before now?
06:38 - Why are there so few companies in the RF space?
08:35 - What Hawkeye is able to detect
13:46 - Satellites in a trio formation
17:21 - Fingerprinting points of interest
18:14 - What can Hawkeye 360 track?
21:33 - GPS jamming and spoofing
22:19 - How John got into this business
24:37 - Market size for RF capability
28:00 - Data licenses
30:56 - Next steps for Hawkeye's revisit rate
32:33 - China's capabilities
33:17 - Why did Hawkeye 360 acquire Innovative Signal Analysis (ISA)?
34:28 - Buy vs build
36:43 - John's stance on datacenters in space
37:55 - Investor confidence around Hawkeye
39:50 - The impact of SpaceX going public
42:02 - Is 2026 the year Hawkeye goes public?
44:59 - Will countries start building RF shields?
45:39 - Ultimate goal of Hawkeye• Show notes •
Hawkeye’s website — https://www.he360.com/
Hawkeye’s socials — https://x.com/hawkeye360
Mo's socials — https://x.com/itsmoislam
Payload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspace
Ignition’s socials — https://twitter.com/ignitionnuclear /
https://www.linkedin.com/company/ignition-nuclear/
Tectonic’s socials — https://twitter.com/tectonicdefense / https://www.linkedin.com/company/tectonicdefense/
Valley of Depth archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/• About us •
Valley of Depth is a podcast about the technologies that matter — and the people building them. Brought to you by Arkaea Media, the team behind Payload (space), Ignition (nuclear energy), and Tectonic (defense tech), this show goes beyond headlines and hype. We talk to founders, investors, government officials, and military leaders shaping the future of national security and deep tech. From breakthrough science to strategic policy, we dive into the high-stakes decisions behind the world’s hardest technologies.
Payload: www.payloadspace.comTectonic: www.tectonicdefense.comIgnition: www.ignition-news.com -
As constraints on energy, water, and permitting collide with exploding demand for AI and compute, a once-fringe idea is moving rapidly toward the center of the conversation: putting data centers in space. Starcloud believes orbital infrastructure isn’t science fiction—it’s a necessary extension of the global compute stack if scaling is going to continue at anything close to its current pace.
Founded by Philip Johnston, Starcloud is building space-based compute systems designed to compete on cost, performance, and scale with terrestrial data centers. The company has already flown a data center–grade GPU in orbit and is now working toward larger, commercially viable systems that could reshape where and how AI is powered.
We discuss:
How energy and permitting constraints are reshaping the future of compute
Why space-based data centers may be economically inevitable, not optional
What Starcloud proved by running an H100 GPU in orbit
How launch costs, watts-per-kilogram, and chip longevity define the real economics
The national security implications of who controls future compute capacity
• Chapters •
00:00 - Intro
00:50 - The issue with data centers
02:20 - Explosion of the data center debates
04:58 - Philip's 5GW data center rendering and early conceptions of data centers in space at YC
08:16 - Proving people wrong
11:17 - The team at Starcloud today
12:29 - Competing against SpaceX's data center
14:42 - Sam Altman's beef with Starlink
16:52 - Economics of Orbital vs Terrestrial Data Centers by Andrew McCallip
21:33 - Where are we putting these things?
23:50 - Latency in space
25:59 - Political side of building data centers
28:36 - Starcloud 1
30:16 - Space based processors
30:51 - Shakespeare in space
32:00 - Hardening an Nvidia H100 against radiation and making chips in space economical
34:43 - Cooling systems in space
36:01 - How Starcloud is thinking about replacing failed GPUs
38:46 - The mission for Starcloud 2
40:05 - Competitors outside of SpaceX
40:49 - Getting to economical launch costs
44:35 - Will the next great wars be over water and power for data centers?
46:25 - What keeps Philip up at night?
47:11 - What keeps Mo up at night?• Show notes •
Starcloud’s website — https://www.starcloud.com/
Philip’s socials — https://x.com/PhilipJohnston
Mo's socials — https://x.com/itsmoislam
Payload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspace
Ignition’s socials — https://twitter.com/ignitionnuclear /
https://www.linkedin.com/company/ignition-nuclear/
Tectonic’s socials — https://twitter.com/tectonicdefense / https://www.linkedin.com/company/tectonicdefense/
Valley of Depth archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/• About us •
Valley of Depth is a podcast about the technologies that matter — and the people building them. Brought to you by Arkaea Media, the team behind Payload (space), Ignition (nuclear energy), and Tectonic (defense tech), this show goes beyond headlines and hype. We talk to founders, investors, government officials, and military leaders shaping the future of national security and deep tech. From breakthrough science to strategic policy, we dive into the high-stakes decisions behind the world’s hardest technologies.
Payload: www.payloadspace.comTectonic: www.tectonicdefense.comIgnition: www.ignition-news.com - Show more
