Episódios
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In this episode Will engages in a profound conversation with Danny Frazer, co-founder of the former Open Sky Wilderness Therapy program and founder of Gain the Ridge Consulting. Danny shares his journey into the field of wilderness therapy, beginning as an intern at Galena Ridge and progressing to roles at Aspen Achievement Academy. He reflects on the audacious vision that led to the founding of Open Sky in 2006, highlighting how they integrated innovative practices like yoga, meditation, naturopathic medicine, and extensive family involvement—elements that were revolutionary at the time. Danny discusses his leadership roles, including serving as the chair of the Outdoor Behavioral Healthcare Council, where he emphasized collaboration and ethical practices to advance the field.
The conversation delves into the challenging decision to close Open Sky in early 2024 after 18 years of operation. Danny candidly examines the multifaceted reasons behind the closure, including negative media portrayals of wilderness therapy, societal shifts in parenting styles, increased competition from insurance-covered programs, and the impacts of the COVID-19 pandemic. He shares his personal process of grief and reflection, which led to the creation of Gain the Ridge Consulting. Through his new venture, Danny aims to support leaders and organizations in behavioral healthcare by offering coaching and consulting services that focus on leadership development, risk management, and program evolution. He expresses optimism for the future of wilderness therapy, emphasizing the enduring power of nature in healing and personal growth.
To listen an episode about the closure of Open Sky check out episode 221-The Closure of Open Sky: Is this the "Winter" of Wilderness Therapy?
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In this episode Will reconnects with Nichol Ernst, CEO of Summit Achievement, an adolsecent residential treatment program in Maine. Nichol shares his journey from starting as a field staff member 21 years ago to leading the organization today. They delve into how Summit Achievement has evolved since its founding in 1996, discussing the core principles that have remained steadfast—the transformative power of nature, evidence-based clinical work, a strong focus on academics, and the critical involvement of family in the therapeutic process. Nichol highlights how the program has adapted to meet the changing needs of adolescents and their families, integrating technological advancements for safety, becoming a fully accredited school capable of awarding academic credits, and addressing the increasing complexity of mental health issues among youth.
The conversation also addresses the broader challenges and criticisms faced by the wilderness therapy field. Nichol discusses Summit Achievement's commitment to transparency, ethical practices, and continual improvement through state licensure, national accreditations, and the publication of outcome data demonstrating significant reductions in depression and anxiety among participants. As mental health needs continue to rise, Summit Achievement remains dedicated to providing effective, individualized treatment without compromising its foundational values. This insightful discussion offers listeners a deeper understanding of how one organization navigates the complexities of mental health care while harnessing the healing power of the outdoors.
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In the milestone 250th episode, Will reconnects with Matt Nannis, founder of PIVOTPoint, an experiential adventure program based in Western North Carolina. Since their last conversation in 2022, PIVOTPoint has evolved significantly, shifting its focus from working primarily with individuals in recovery to providing preventive and therapeutic services for youth within the local community. Matt discusses how the organization has integrated its programs into schools, offering after-school initiatives for high school and middle school students that emphasize self-awareness, self-regulation, and pro-social behaviors through outdoor activities like hiking, paddleboarding, and rock climbing.
The episode takes a profound turn as Matt shares PIVOTPoint’s essential role in the aftermath of Hurricane Helene, which devastated parts of Western North Carolina. Faced with widespread destruction, loss of utilities, and a community in crisis, Pivot Point adapted swiftly to provide immediate mental health support and relief services. Matt delves into the challenges of mobilizing resources, coordinating with other organizations, and addressing his own emotional journey during this demanding time. Despite the overwhelming circumstances, PIVOTPoint’s commitment to serving the community highlighted the importance of adaptability, resilience, and the therapeutic power of connection during times of crisis.
To donate to PIVOTpoint check out their website at https://pivotpointwnc.org/.
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In this episode Will reconnects with Bill Brown, co-founder of Confluence Behavioral Health in Vermont. Since their last conversation in 2019, Confluence has evolved significantly to meet the changing needs of young adults. Bill discusses how today's youth are internalizing their struggles more than ever, shifting from outward expressions of distress to feelings of self-hatred and isolation. Recognizing this change, Confluence adapted its wilderness therapy model by integrating nightly returns to their residential property, increasing accessibility through insurance coverage, and expanding services with Arete Transitions and a new Intensive Outpatient Program (IOP) in Burlington.
Bill emphasizes the importance of evolving treatment approaches to address the current mental health crisis among young adults. He notes that while the need for mental health services has risen, options have narrowed due to societal shifts and decreased parental willingness to engage in more challenging therapeutic interventions. Through innovative programs and a focus on integrating adventure therapy with clinical practices, Confluence aims to provide effective support tailored to the unique challenges faced by today's youth.
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In this episode Will reconnects with Derek Daley, co-founder of Legacy Outdoor Adventures and a seasoned professional with over 25 years in wilderness therapy. Derek shares how Legacy has evolved since its inception in 2012, focusing on adults aged 18 to 35. He discusses their unique approach of combining epic adventure therapy—such as canyoneering, rock climbing, and skiing in southern Utah—with strong clinical practices to create meaningful and effective treatment experiences and a hybrid model of residential treatment and outdoor adventures. Derek highlights the importance of engaging clients who choose to participate willingly, which enhances the therapeutic process and outcomes.
The conversation delves into the broader changes and challenges within the wilderness therapy field, including increased scrutiny, the impact of technology and screen time on young adults, and the closure of several programs. Derek addresses criticisms of wilderness therapy by advocating for greater transparency, accountability, and the need to demonstrate measurable outcomes. He emphasizes that despite challenges, wilderness therapy remains one of the most compassionate and effective forms of treatment. Derek also shares his passion for engaging the next generation of mental health professionals through initiatives like the upcoming 2025 HIP (Healing in Progress) Tour to college campuses.
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In the opening episode of Season 21, host Will White delves into the significant transformations occurring within the wilderness therapy field for adolescents and young adults, paralleling them with the impacts of climate change on our environment. He reflects on the "Great Collapse" between 2007 and 2010, when the number of wilderness therapy programs dramatically decreased due to economic pressures from the Great Recession. Drawing striking parallels to recent events, Will discusses how the closure of seven wilderness therapy programs in the last two years mirrors that earlier contraction, signaling a new period of challenge and change in the field. He also explores how these challenges echo those faced by longstanding outdoor organizations like the Boy Scouts of America, NOLS, and Outward Bound, highlighting how declining enrollments, controversies and technology have impacted the broader outdoor experiential field.
Despite challenges like increased operational risks, changing market demands, and heightened public scrutiny, some programs have demonstrated remarkable resilience and continue to adapt to the evolving landscape. Will announces that this season will feature interviews with leaders from enduring programs to explore how they've navigated these challenges and what they envision for the future of outdoor behavioral healthcare. Emphasizing the importance of stepping away from screens and engaging with the real world, he encourages listeners to embrace the outdoors as a powerful platform for mental health treatment. The episode sets the stage for a season focused on adaptation, resilience, and the ongoing impact of wilderness therapy on young lives.
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In this episode Will sits down with Dr. Alison LaFollette, the Clinical Director of Mountain Valley Treatment Center. Alison shares her journey from conducting neuropsychological evaluations in several of Utah's wilderness therapy programs to leading the clinical team at Mountain Valley. She discusses the integration of Exposure and Response Prevention (ERP) therapy with outdoor experiential activities at Mountain Valley, highlighting how natural settings like the Zen Garden, farm, outdoor climbing wall and hiking trails enhance therapeutic outcomes for adolescents and young adults struggling with anxiety and OCD. The conversation delves into the rising levels of social anxiety among young people, the impact of the pandemic on mental health, and the importance of family involvement in treatment.
Alison also explores the similarities between ERP and adventure therapy, emphasizing the value of taking committed action in accordance with one's values. She reflects on the challenges facing behavioral healthcare organizations, including staff burnout and program sustainability, offering insights into how Mountain Valley addresses these issues. The episode concludes with Alison sharing how she utilizes the outdoors for her own mental well-being and her excitement about future innovations at Mountain Valley, such as expanding experiential components and fostering team synergy.
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In this episode Will talks with Hayley Caddes, co-founder of Not Therapy Coaching, about her powerful personal journey through wilderness therapy and an all-girls therapeutic boarding school. Hayley shares how these experiences inspired her to help others who have gone through treatment, creating a unique coaching model that fills the gap between traditional therapy and the support needed to thrive in everyday life. She discusses how peer mentorship, structure, and community play pivotal roles in recovery and growth after treatment.
Hayley also addresses the controversies surrounding wilderness therapy and the closures of the programs she attended, taking a business-minded approach to understanding the challenges faced by the industry. She reflects on how successful programs are, those that not only offer quality care but also adapt to the evolving mental health landscape. From selling her first startup, Chill Pill, to running Not Therapy Coaching, Hayley’s story is one of empowerment, recovery, resilience, and entrepreneurial spirit. Tune in to learn how wilderness therapy shaped her path and how she is paying it forward to others on their mental health journeys.
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In this powerful episode Will speaks with JD and his mother, Amber, as they recount their powerful journey through wilderness therapy. JD opens up about the struggles that led him down a dangerous path of substance abuse, starting as a teen during the COVID-19 pandemic. Amber shares the difficult decision to send JD to a wilderness therapy program in Utah, and how the experience not only saved his life but transformed their family. Together, they discuss the challenging process of recovery, manipulation, and ultimately the breakthrough that wilderness therapy provided.
As September is National Recovery Month, this episode highlights the healing potential of wilderness therapy for addiction and mental health recovery. JD and Amber's story is a testament to the life-changing impact of being in nature, far from the destructive influences of modern life. Their conversation touches on the urgent need for support, as many wilderness therapy programs are closing despite their success in helping young people recover from addiction.
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In this deeply moving episode Will sits down with Melissa and Graham Squier, founders of the Harlan Serenity Foundation. This foundation, created in memory of their late son, Chris Squier, supports young people struggling with addiction by providing access to wilderness therapy programs. The interview takes a poignant turn when Will realizes he had interviewed Chris back in 2020, unaware that Chris would later lose his battle with addiction. This realization, combined with the ongoing closures of critical wilderness therapy programs, makes for an emotional conversation about the profound impact of wilderness therapy on those struggling with addiction.
Melissa and Graham share Chris’s journey—from his initial struggles with addiction to finding sobriety through wilderness therapy, and later becoming a field guide to help others on the same path. They discuss the creation of the Harlan Serenity Foundation, its mission, and the importance of keeping wilderness therapy programs alive in a time when they are needed more than ever. This episode is a testament to the healing power of nature and the enduring legacy of those who have benefited from it.
Link to the Harlan Serenity Foundation.
Episode with Chris Squire which was released in September of 2020.
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In this episode Will talks with Dr. Denise Mitten, a pioneering figure in outdoor education, adventure, and wilderness therapy. Denise shares her journey from her early days in the 1970s, overcoming gender barriers in a male-dominated field, to co-founding the influential Woodswomen organization, which focused on emotional safety and support in outdoor programs. Throughout the conversation, Denise discusses the evolution of outdoor therapy emphasizing the importance of creating safe, relational environments rather than relying on stress-based models. Her insights into the ethics of care, the role of women in the field, and the shift towards eco-psychology offer listeners a profound understanding of how wilderness experiences can foster deep personal growth and healing.
Denise also reflects on the importance of relational connection in outdoor programs, critiquing the traditional "power over" models often seen in wilderness therapy. She advocates for a more deliberate and thoughtful approach to risk-taking, where the focus is on maintaining comfort and regulation rather than pushing participants beyond their limits. Her teachings challenge the field to embrace inclusivity, sustainability, and a deeper connection with nature, making this episode a must-listen for anyone interested in the future of outdoor therapy and education.
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In this episode Will talks with Sheldon Nelson, founder of Crossroads Discovery and a veteran of the wilderness therapy field. Sheldon discusses the inspiration behind Crossroads Discovery, a program that bridges the gap between traditional wilderness therapy and ongoing support for adolescents and their families. He highlights the unique approach of offering short-term wilderness immersion experiences that emphasize not only survival skills but also personal growth and self-discovery. Sheldon shares how the program evolved to meet the needs of families seeking continued guidance after their children completed the wilderness programs, integrating in-home coaching and nature-based activities into their everyday lives.
Sheldon also reflects on his extensive career, including his years at Anasazi Foundation, one of the oldest wilderness therapy programs for adolescents in the country. He emphasizes the importance of focusing on a change of heart over mere behavior modification and how this philosophy underpins the work at Crossroads Discovery. The episode offers a deep dive into the current state of wilderness therapy, its challenges, and its potential future, making it a must-listen for anyone interested in the field of adolescent mental health and outdoor experiential therapy.
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In this episode, Will talks with Andy Benckart, a former wilderness therapy participant whose transformative journey has led him to pursue a master's degree in social work. Andy shares how his time in wilderness therapy helped him confront and process deep-seated anxiety and trauma, giving him the clarity and tools needed to rebuild his life. Through a technique referred to as brainspotting and the guidance of a compassionate therapist outdoors, Andy discovered new strengths within himself, setting him on a path toward helping others.
Reflecting on his experiences as both a participant and later as a staff member in a young adult residential treatment program in Maine, Andy offers a nuanced perspective on the benefits and challenges of wilderness therapy and residential treatment. He discusses the importance of being ready for change, the value of outdoor experiences in mental health recovery, and his commitment to using his journey to support others in similar situations. Andy also shares how surfing in Maine has helped him to be the best version of himself. This episode is a powerful testament to the healing power of nature and the potential for personal growth through mental health treatment in the outdoors.
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In this episode Will talks with Ciara Fanlo, founder of Homing Instinct, to discuss her transformative journey from a “troubled teen” to a dedicated mentor for adolescents. Ciara opens up about her personal struggles with depression, anxiety, and self-harm, and how wilderness therapy played a pivotal role in her recovery. She candidly addresses the pros and cons of teen treatment programs, highlighting how these experiences have deeply informed her approach to mentoring.
Ciara shares how her time in wilderness therapy provided new perspectives and coping mechanisms, while also acknowledging the challenges and shortcomings she faced in therapeutic boarding school. These insights have shaped Homing Instinct, her mentoring program that focuses on understanding the unique needs of teenagers. By combining her personal experiences with professional training, Ciara offers tailored support to help teens navigate their emotional landscapes, build healthy relationships, and find a sense of purpose. This episode offers a nuanced look at the impact of teen treatment programs and the importance of compassionate mentorship.
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In this episode Will welcomes Kim Sacksteder and Nick Magle-Haberek from Adventure-Therapist.com to share their story. Discover how they have expanded their training and supervision programs, emphasizing safety, clinical efficacy, and the integration of outdoor activities into therapeutic practices. Kim and Nick discuss their journey from initial training sessions to becoming leading voices in adventure therapy, providing invaluable resources and training to clinicians across the country. Whether you're a mental health professional or someone interested in the transformative power of nature, this episode is packed with inspiration and practical insights.
We delve into the core components of adventure therapy training and certification, offering listeners a comprehensive overview of what it takes to incorporate these methods into their practice. From the significance of proper assessment and risk management to the unique challenges and rewards of working in outdoor settings, Kim and Nick provide a wealth of knowledge and experience. Tune in to hear about a collaboration with Prescott College, their published works, and their vision for the future of adventure therapy. Don't miss this opportunity to learn from two of the most dedicated professionals in the field.
Check out their website: https://www.adventure-therapist.com/
Episode 80 of Stories from the Field with Nick Magle-Haberek
Episode 108 of Stories from the Field with Kim Sacksteder
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In this week’s episode Will sits down with Zack Shaffer, executive director of Mountain Valley Treatment Center, to discuss their recent hike up Mount Moosilauke. They recount the challenging Memorial Day hike with ten residents and adventure coordinator TJ Bauman, exploring the profound physical and emotional benefits of outdoor adventures in addressing anxiety. The episode delves into exposure therapy, adventure therapy, and the therapeutic effects of nature, highlighting how these experiences foster personal growth and resilience. Zack also shares a deeply personal story about the significance of the day, marking the anniversary of a close friend's passing, adding an emotional and reflective layer to the conversation.
Zack uses this episode to emphasize the center's mission of helping adolescents and young adults overcome anxiety and related disorders through innovative therapeutic practices. He discusses the importance of creating opportunities for residents to step outside their comfort zones and embrace challenges, reinforcing the center's commitment to fostering an exposure-based lifestyle. Zack's heartfelt narrative and dedication to mental health advocacy resonate throughout the episode, making it a compelling listen for anyone interested in the transformative power of therapy and nature. This compelling conversation between Zack and Will offers listeners valuable insights into the intersection of mental health treatment and the outdoors.
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In this episode, Will welcomes David Segal and Bonnie Dyck from the Human Nature Counselling Society. They dive deep into their journeys into nature-based therapy, sharing how personal experiences and a profound connection to the natural world led them to the field. David discusses the systemic and experiential approach of Human Nature Counselling, emphasizing the importance of reconnecting individuals and families with nature to foster mental health and well-being. Bonnie elaborates on the comprehensive training programs they offer, designed to equip therapists with the skills needed to integrate nature into their practice effectively.
Listeners will gain insight into the transformative power of nature-based therapy through heartwarming stories of clients who have found healing and growth through their unique approach. From reducing anxiety in children to helping adults overcome trauma, David and Bonnie illustrate how their methods bridge the gap between human and ecological systems. They also discuss the future of their work, highlighting their commitment to accessibility, community collaboration, and supporting indigenous initiatives that reconnect people with their ancestral lands. This episode is a testament to the profound impact of nature on mental health and the innovative ways Human Nature Counselling is leading the field.
David Segal is also the co-author of the book, Nature-Based Therapy: A Practitioner’s Guide to Working Outdoors with Children, Youth, and Families.
Nevin Harper, co-author of Nature-Based Therapy: A Practitioner’s Guide to Working Outdoors with Children, Youth, and Families is also mentioned in this episode, and he had previously been on this podcast. Here is the link to Nevin’s episode.
Katie Asmus, from the Somatic Nature Therapy Institute, is also mentioned in this episode and has previously been on this podcast. Here is the link to Katie’s episode.
Here is a link to a pdf of an article mentioned in this episode The Ecology of Adventure Therapy: An Integral Systems Approach to Therapeutic Change.
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In this episode, Will talks with Colin MacDonald, co-founder of Not Therapy Coaching. Colin shares his journey from being a wilderness therapy client and therapeutic boarding school student to graduating college and then entering the work-force. Not finding deep meaning in his initial career path, Colin decided to become a certified young adult life coach to help others. He recounts the challenges he faced as an adolescent, including struggles with ADHD, depression, and substance abuse, and how wilderness therapy helped him turn his life around. Colin also discusses the mission of Not Therapy Coaching, which aims to bridge the gap between therapeutic programs and successful transitions to home, college, or independent living. He emphasizes the importance of spending time outdoors for mental health and how it benefits both him and his clients.
Colin further explains the unique approach of Not Therapy Coaching, highlighting the role of relatable mentorship and community building. He details how the program supports young adults and teens by providing daily accountability, fostering healthy habits, and helping them find communities that support their interests and goals. Colin's passion for helping others through his lived experience is evident as he shares success stories of clients who have benefited from the program. This episode offers valuable insights into the transformative power of wilderness therapy and the innovative ways Not Therapy Coaching is making a difference in the lives of young people.
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In this episode Will talks with Dr. Patrick McMillon and Alex White from Westminster University in Utah. They discuss the Graduate Certificate in Adventure Therapy, a program designed to train clinicians in integrating adventure therapy into their practice. Dr. McMillon, the program coordinator, shares insights on the program's structure, which includes three intensive courses focused on theory, professional practice, and clinical application. Alex White, with over ten years of experience, highlights how the program prepares students to implement effective, ethical, and culturally relevant adventure therapy.
The episode also delves into the practical aspects of the certification, emphasizing its suitability for mental health and recreational therapists, as well as students in Westminster’s Clinical Mental Health Counseling program. The guests discuss the growing interest in adventure therapy, the program's community impact, and the career benefits for graduates. Listeners will gain a comprehensive understanding of how this certification can enhance their therapeutic practices and contribute to the broader field of mental health treatment.
Link to Westminster University Adventure Therapy Certification page.
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In this timely episode, Jessica Miller from the Salt Lake Tribune shares insights from her investigative article on the closures of wilderness therapy programs for teens in Utah. She discusses the factors driving these closures, such as negative media attention and financial challenges. Jessica provides an in-depth look at the current state of wilderness therapy in Utah and explains how the state government regulates the field. Tune in for an eye-opening discussion that sheds light on this crucial topic.
Jessica Miller, an investigative reporter from the Salt Lake Tribune, reveals the significant challenges she faced while investigating the wilderness therapy industry. Despite numerous attempts, many within the industry were hesitant to speak with her, highlighting the difficulty of uncovering the full story. Jessica discusses the complexities of reporting on wilderness therapy, the importance of fair representation, and the delicate balance of presenting unbiased information. This episode offers a unique perspective on the role of journalism in shedding light on sensitive issues.
Jessica’s article is titled “Nearly half of Utah’s wilderness programs for “troubled teens” closed in the last year. Here’s what’s happening"- Salt Lake Tribue- Link here if podcast platforms let you use it.
Jessica Miller’s bio from Salt Lake Tribune- "Jessica is an investigative reporter at The Salt Lake Tribune, where she has worked since 2011. She was part of the team that won a 2017 Pulitzer Prize, and she is a two-time Livingston Award finalist. She has collaborated with several national outlets for investigative projects, including FRONTLINE, American Public Media and ProPublica."
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