43 Stop Making Excuses. Learn to Prioritize Travel Now with Mari Escobar

25 jul 2022 · Alone With Peter

00:48:44

On the season finale of Alone with Peter, Mari Escobar shares practical tips for travel, useful resources for staying safe, as a female/solo traveler, and good habits for saving money for your next trip so you can stop making excuses and learn how to prioritize travel!

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43 Stop Making Excuses. How to Prioritize Travel Now with Mari Escobar

*Transcripts may contain a few typos. With interviews ranging from 1-2 hours, it can be difficult to catch minor errors.

Peter Kersting: Welcome to Alone with Peter a podcast for entrepreneurs, artists, digital nomads, and people seeking personal growth. We are back for part three of our interview with Mari Escobar and Mari's been through a lot of different accounting jobs right now. She is a financial controller for an indie record label, which I laugh cuz I, the term financial controller sounds so intense to me. but one of the things that I know Mari better for is she's really good at maximizing her travel time, even though she has a nine-to-five job. So if you were someone who was looking for some tips and tricks on how to find a way to travel more while still doing your job and still having your boss be happy with you, Mari's gonna give us some practical tips in this episode about that, about how to travel safely, if you're a female solo traveler and so on and so forth. So thanks for coming back on the show, Mari, and are you ready? Ready to jump into this masterclass?

Mari Escobar: Let's do it. My friends have been asking for it for a while.

Peter Kersting: What exactly are your friends asking about? Let's start with that.

Mari Escobar: They're like, how do you travel everywhere? And don't take that many vacation days or like, how do you do it? Like while working a regular job? So like I mentioned before, I'd say one of my biggest, it's not really a trick, but you know, you gotta take advantage of the holidays any, any day off official day off that doesn't count as vacation, do it and combine it with your vacation. Like if for example, I'm going down to Europe, I'm using Memorial day. It might be a little bit more expensive, but you get more days out of it. You go, yeah. Instead of taking four days, I mean, five days you take four days and you can leave four 10, like I said, before you go like the Friday before you come back the Sunday, midnight before and you multiply the days.

Mari Escobar: Don't spend the days sitting at home

Peter Kersting: you gotta bookend the weekends too is other thing you're saying?

Mari Escobar: Yeah. Mm-hmm sure that's very, that's very big. That's yeah. That's how you maximize the days are these business days, the weekends don't count of course. And then try to leave AF right after work. Don't always wait until the next morning, cuz I mean, those travel hours make a difference. You can be at the destination the next morning instead of like the next night.

Peter Kersting: How long are you planning a trip before you go? Cause that seems like that's a pretty key part too. You're looking out ahead. You're like, oh, Memorial day weekend is coming up. Where do I want to go? And what days? Cuz that takes time some time and effort to think through, where am I gonna go? How am I gonna budget for it? What, how is the best way to bookend it? So how far out in advance are you looking for? Where you wanna stay and when you're gonna go,

Mari Escobar: Not too far in advance I don't plan more than two, three months before or even less. But that's one thing I know all the holidays by hand and by, especially by through the different jobs, I know which holidays we have and we don't and which ones we don't have available. Most people like don't keep track of that. I'm like, I'm on top of it. I know how many vacation days I've taken. I know how many vacation days I have left and I know the holidays coming up. I'm like, okay, there's Memorial weekend then there's July 4th and labor day. And then I don't have anything until like Thanksgiving. So I kinda like split it up around that. And I that's one thing I'm always like on top of

Peter Kersting: That's amazing. And I don't know why I haven't mentioned this earlier, but you sent me right before we did this podcast interview a list of all of the countries you've been to and it is a massive list. I am going to make sure I share it somehow with the group. But in case you think, ah, I don't know how much I believe this. How many countries have you been to?

Mari Escobar: 54. I finally put it up in an app. I mean, I was writing it. I have a, a handwritten list that I did during the hurricane. I'm like, okay, I'm gonna sit down and write how many countries I've actually been to. You know, there are some technicalities, like the Vatican is a separate country, but you know, I'm gonna use it. Sure. Towards my count

Peter Kersting: Still, 54!

Mari Escobar: Yeah. And counting it's 21% of the world. It comes up on the app.

Peter Kersting: I love that 21% of the world. Do you have, what do you have a goal to get to everywhere by a certain time?

Mari Escobar: I mean, it's impossible to get everywhere. I don't have like a special, like specific number, but I wanna try to do maybe between one or three countries, like new countries maybe per year, like this year I want, so like I mentioned before, I'm going to Europe now and I wanted to squeeze in a new country. But it was getting complicated so I'm, I'm doing like a new city. But the new country was like getting into too much, but later in the year I'm like, I need to get at least one during this year/

Peter Kersting: Sure, sure, sure. I'm curious. What have been some of the repeat places for you?

Mari Escobar: Too many most of Europe is a repeat. But I just love going there. It's just like, I never wanna leave. So yeah, I, I don't do that. Like I know people who go to one place and they don't wanna repeat it because I've been there. Sure. But I've been traveling all my life and there's a place that I like. I go back to it. I do try to add new activities or new cities or, you know sure. Not always do the same thing, but in terms of country, I'm like, I try to, or even mix both. You do one old and then one new one. And that's also like right now, like I've seen most of the touristy spots in a lot of places, but I go back and I try to like, not necessarily completely avoid those, avoid those, but you know, I just wanna like go walk around and explore the city.

Mari Escobar: Sure. Without any rush, I don't need to go into the loop and see them on. At least I've seen that. I just wanna walk around, sit in the cafe for hours and you know, relax. Like, yeah. So it's a different kind of traveling and I don't wanna be rushing. I don't like those like three day trips. Like you do three days, three day, three days. And you're like switching every day. No, I like also like getting to know a place better than doing four cities and you know, just getting like one day or two days in each.

Peter Kersting: Sure. Is there anything else before we keep moving past it about maximizing your work days off and your travel time that you wanna add?

Mari Escobar: Also now take advantage of the remote life. And that's what I did. The last two years you can combine both like you can work a few days remotely. Yeah. You have to take your laptop with you, which can be annoying. But it lets you also, you can find cheaper flights cuz you don't have to leave on that Friday, which is more expensive. You can leave on Wednesday work Thursday and Friday, and then you start your vacation the next week. Or like last year I went to Spain for like two weeks. I worked one week and I took the other week as vacation. So that lets you use more of the days.

Peter Kersting: Sure. The fact that you're actually able to work in a new country, you can still do something after work. If you're good about saying I'm done at this time or if your job allows you to do it at any time, if you want. Cause that's

Mari Escobar: Probably, yeah. It can also be hard depending on, you know, the time difference too. Sure. You can be tricky. Sure. and trying to explore a new city and you know, have to be working, but it's not, it's manageable. I'd rather do that than not go at all and right. I think that's my, that's my motto for a lot of things. like, I'd rather do it this way than not go or yeah. You know, you have to sacrifice one thing that you have to work longer hours for a few days in order to be able to take that trip or, you know, skip going out for lunch in order to, you know, use that money, that sort of thing.

Peter Kersting: sure. I mean, and that's a valuable lesson, whether it's trying to maximize your travel time or anything else you wanna do, you have to prioritize it and that means not prioritizing other stuff. Right. Mm-hmm sure. So you talked about planning versus not planning sort of already, but how do you go about funding, your travel? What are some things that you could suggest to people as far as how they can prioritize travel? They're serious about it? How can they do a better job preparing for financially?

Mari Escobar: Well, I guess for this, yeah. You have to do it in advantage of like, oh next week I'm I'm heading out. If you can, that's perfect. But if not try to your budget yourself and be like, okay, I cannot be going out that much this week or for a few weeks, like I'm gonna be holding off on those like a hundred dollars dinners. Like this is LA. So that happens more frequent then you would think stuff like that. And then there I've, there's always a meme. I've seen it a couple times when it's like so accurate. It's like you say, you don't have money for the, for the trip, but you know, tries bringing lunch into, into work and you'll be saving what sure. $50 to a hundred a week. And then by the end of the month you can buy flight somewhere

Peter Kersting: Or, or be like Tanner Combias and, buy like a sandwich while your friends are drinking beers or something.

Mari Escobar: I saw that. I heard that.

Peter Kersting: Oh, I love it though. It's so great. But you're right.

Mari Escobar: Something else in the tip of my mouth and I just forgot.

Peter Kersting: No, I'm sorry.

Mari Escobar: It's okay. Keep going.

Peter Kersting: I was just gonna say that the reason you're able to do that for a couple is partly because you know where you want to go and you know that you're prioritizing travel. So like when you go, like I'm gonna go, you're going to Paris next right. Specifically. Mm-hmm ly so have you already turned down, going out to dinner with somebody this, this last couple weeks? Or like, is that something you end up having to do, right?

Mari Escobar: yes. I'm yeah. I'm gonna keep it to like $50 a night. The most I can't do like this hundred nights. Like it's like 400 weekends. No,

Peter Kersting: That's so funny.

Mari Escobar: Like I need to hold off a, a little bit and all the concerts. I love going to concerts. So the last few ones I'm like, okay, I need to, you know, hold myself a little bit because I'm going on this trip pretty soon.

Peter Kersting: So on the aspect of funding, your travel, there's finding the time from work and there's also saving the money. Is there anything in general else that you say like, man, people really don't think about this, but this is an important part about preparing for the trip. If you're gonna do it more often.

Mari Escobar: Oh, this is what I remember. Eh, kind of it's like DBA, but everybody, I like, oh, you're a millionaire. You have so much money right to travel? I'm like I have okay money. But also like from the solo travels, you always meet people and then you go stay with it and then you don't spend money on a hotel.

Peter Kersting: Bingo.

Mari Escobar: So, yeah. So I do that a lot and that's another way to save money of maximize your vacations and so far I've, I've been like super lucky, like my mom's like, what do you know about these people? It's like people that I've met for like one or two days and God knows what country. Sure. And then they welcome me and they open me like their house and their family welcomes me, you know? Like, come here, stay with us. You can have, you know, mi casa es su casa.

Peter Kersting: Yeah.

Mari Escobar: And it happens more than you might think.

Peter Kersting: More than you might think. Yeah. When you think about there's lot of negative things about the internet, but that is one of the things too. Like I even sounds kind of crazy, but sometimes like you meet somebody through a work related thing, you work with them, but you've never met them. Then you go mm-hmm and you get to stay with them or something like that. Yeah. As long as you have, like, you're smart about it, obviously this is, you know, disclaimer, be careful who you spend time with. But of course, yeah. You know, I remember I'm just thinking there's there's like a list of people that I've met, like one time who I was like, I'm gonna visit you someday. And I definitely go, like, I need to get out there just so I could go visit their country and also spend time. Exactly.

Mari Escobar: Yeah. I try to do it within like one year before of within the, of the offer. So it doesn't expire.

Peter Kersting: Sure that's a good point

Mari Escobar: One to two years. So for instance, like right now I'm going to Paris and I'm meeting. So one friend, well she's from GU she lives in Berlin right now. We met in Pedro in the hostel, but we bonded because she loves Puerto Rico. And like we became instant friends only one day exploring Peru. And then she's like, when are you coming to Guatemala? I think I'm. I remember I went to Mexico. I posted on Facebook. She's like, when you're coming to Guatemala. Oh my, I don't know. She's like, no, you gotta come. You gotta come. And Guatemala had never been, you know, I had never been specifically interested. She's like, no, we can do this, this and this. I'm like, if I don't go, now that I have a local host, I'm not gonna go. Sure. So I went for it and it was amazing. Nice. And then I'm meeting here now in Paris.

Mari Escobar: It's been what like five years or more since we did that trip and yeah. You keep meeting each other, like, you know, like all our, all the travelers are the same. You don't know where they are living now or where they're moving around next. So, but you keep in touch. There's also all this mean toos. Like, you know, all these people you at on your travels and then you're seeing their life unfold on like social media every, and you only met them once. Yeah. But yeah. So even you, like, I mean, I haven't seen you, but I'm sure I'll, I've run into you at some point.

Peter Kersting: Yeah you will have to.

Mari Escobar: You invited me out to your wedding. Another friend that I met in Vietnam, like he lives in Seattle now I have like a super cool crew in Seattle that I go back to visit like all the time. So that's awesome. You make friends and then you visit them and you keep exploring the world together or like through connections that you make through each other.

Peter Kersting: Yeah. And there's something about the travel community. That's very, like, it's just tight knit in the sense. It's like, you're crazy enough to go out and do this stuff where everybody thinks we're crazy for doing this stuff, but it's so cool.

Mari Escobar: Exactly, but it's like all the same type of crazy.

Peter Kersting: Yeah. Yeah. And it's really, I don't think it's that crazy, but I guess, yeah,

Mari Escobar: Yeah, no, I heard that a little. I was like, oh my God, you're crazy. Why are you going on your own? And I do remember, like I was still in New York when some guy was traveling by himself. I'm like, ew like why, why do you do that? Like how like, is it even fun? Sure. and then look at me where I am.

Peter Kersting: yeah. Well that brings us to the next point, cuz I bet there's plenty of people who like the idea of solo traveling, but they're scared about the safety aspect of it. Especially if you could speak to the women who are interested in solo travel, what are some ways you can make sure you're staying safe while you're traveling?

Mari Escobar: Yeah. I mean, you can't be too fearful you gotta go for it. If you think about it, you're never gonna go anywhere. But I would say, I mean, you have to be aware of your surroundings. Like you are everywhere potential to what you have. Like who's walking around you also. I mean, I try to give my parents or like close friends, like information of where I am. I'm like, yeah, I'll be staying this hotel. These are my flights. Or, you know, to keep track of, I'm like I'm meeting this person here and here and there. And you know, we, we all have like, I travel a lot as a single girl. I'm like, okay, you go on the, on those Tinder dates, you know, you give your friends, the information of who you're admitting just in case. Cause you never know. Yeah.

Mari Escobar: So yeah. I'd say like sharing information is good. So people know where you are or they have an idea of where you are. You're gonna necess I think if you're posting stuff on social media that helps two people know that, you know, you're, you're still doing okay. But if you don't do that all the time, just have your close people know that, that you are here, like have an idea of where you are. Also. I usually mostly I do this in Asia you can register with a department of state your travels and then if there's an emergency, they let you know like this is happening. You should get out of there. I think this is for us citizens. I don't know if it applies, this country has something similar, but sure, sure. I feel that's helpful too. And just in general, yeah. Be careful. Obviously you have to be careful of who you meet, but the travel I'd say like the travel community, especially like when I travel by myself, I go to hostels and then you meet so many people. Like, so like-minded people you feel easy or feel comfortable and you're never really alone. So

Peter Kersting: Yeah. And there's definitely an aspect too, of if you're new to traveling, traveling in a group makes a lot of sense. And then as you kind of branch out, there's a certain element of trust in your gut and making sure, you know, people are kind of how they appear to be before you just spend a bunch of time with them too. Right.

Mari Escobar: Yeah. Don't go into this dark alley at night by yourself, obviously that sort of thing.

Peter Kersting: right. I mean, and some of this stuff seems like really obvious, but even though you're not much of a planner, do you ever like try to pay attention to like, I mean, I, you go a lot in America or you're like, what is the, what is this political climate here right now? Or like, where should I avoid? Or

Mari Escobar: Yeah. Those are things that you, you need to know, like what's happening in the country at the time. If there's like some riots or strikes, like be careful and like, yeah. I mean, you know, some places are not as safe as others, so sure. Maybe those ones don't go by yourself. sure. Or try to find someone to do stuff with you or like go on a tour if you don't feel that safe or it's like, let's say like that day do like a group activity. Yeah. Just to, you know, don't be completely on your own if you don't think it's too safe.

Peter Kersting: Right. And that's also a great way to meet people too. Like you said, doing a walking tour, taking a chance to get your lay of the land is always a nice way to start your trip anyway.

Mari Escobar: Yes. I always try to do that.

Peter Kersting: Yeah. I definitely think it's smart to know what's going on in the country you're from what to expect, like what kind of places to avoid too. So I wonder, yeah. Do you have any resources you would suggest like, oh, this is a great site to look at. I think the state department thing sounds really interesting. Maybe you could share that with me in fact.

Mari Escobar: Yeah. I usually use that one. You're not familiar with it?

Peter Kersting: I don't know if there's a specific link you wanna share with me. I can put in the notes. I've heard of it before, but.

Mari Escobar: I'll share that later. But yeah, I think since the first time that I went to Asia, I've registered there and I still get like alerts. It's cuz you put the country that you're visiting to and then like, you know, like with COVID I was still getting alerts from like Thailand. It's like Thailand still has very high cases don't we don't advise you to travel there right now. Sure. So you get those others to, even though you put the, your trip details. And that was years ago. and I still did this. Yeah, but it's a good way for, I mean, if there's an emergency, they know you're there, you know, they can get you out.

Peter Kersting: Right. They need to get a U.S. Embassy involved or whatever.

Mari Escobar: Exactly. So I'd say that's pretty useful in terms of research, like like I was telling you off the air, I guess there's a Facebook group called girls love travel. I love that one. You'll you'll see stories. I mean granted, they're pushing you to be a girl or I think identify as a girl. But it has like, I think maybe a million. So there's people there from all over the world. It's pretty fun. Even though like, even though you don't post, you just follow, like the stories people tell there are like cool to see. And then everybody shares their travel stories. So I go there to do research and I get like suggestions of places to go like within each country. Like they give you cool places to go. There's another one, like female solo traveler. So I'm on a few of those like Facebook groups which is helpful. And that's where I start my research sometimes when I'm looking for info on a new country.

Peter Kersting: Yeah. Thank you for sharing those. Cuz there are other ones that are not as exclusive too. And, and that kind of thing is always a really good way to know what is the current situation like? You know, people will be sharing if they're having a hard time. Mm-Hmm they're gonna say right.

Mari Escobar: Yes Exactly.

Peter Kersting: Or if they're like, dude, this place is so cool, you need to check it out and then that's also gonna give you ideas for what to do.

Mari Escobar: That's also how I get interested in new places too. And then people post pictures and like all their cool experiences. And now they, they, they have a couple like subgroups of the same of the same group. They also have one which is like kinda like couch surfing where people like, they're like, oh, I'm visiting this place. If there's someone who off, you know, have a place for me to stay, we can switch. Or even just to meet up, they have like that too love. And I actually got to meet the owner and sell like at one in one time. So that was pretty cool. They do trips too. Like they organize their own trips and then they have like different age groups that they split it by. So it's a, it's a pretty active group and yeah, I really like it. It's, it's a fun one even just to watch and you know, repeat stories. They also have connect people and like, oh, this happened to me in this country and this other girl that, so my post and this group helped me out, you know, that sort of thing.

Peter Kersting: That's awesome.

Mari Escobar: So the magic of the internet.

Peter Kersting: Yeah. Yeah. No, it's true. Sometimes it's just like, man, that's why it exists. .

Mari Escobar: Yeah, exactly.

Peter Kersting: Something we've kind of discovered over the last couple episodes I'd love to hear more from you, your thoughts and encouraging other people. What kind of attitude do you need to have to thrive? Whether you're solo traveling or just trying to travel more often. And I guess maybe you could tackle that from two standpoints, as an employee, who's looking to travel more. What's a good attitude to have about trying to get where you wanna be. If that's not where you're at and two, when you're traveling, how do you enjoy that more?

Mari Escobar: So I guess while you're working, you know, put in the hours, I mean, if you have to, if it's required, put the hours before and after just to get your job done, you gotta show your, your boss that, I mean, you care about your job. You just, it's not like you're just being lazy. You know, obviously we all deserve vacation, but you have your test that you need to finish. So it's not like I'm gonna leave this in the middle of, you know, what it is and I'm gonna leave it hanging and they, they're not gonna know what to do with it while I'm out. And even though they might, so you gotta, you know, finish your task, communicate and be like, this is what I'm working on. This is what I have pending, if anything. And so I'll work with this, like when I get back and this is what I'll be, what I'm gonna leave you done before.

Mari Escobar: Sure. So that sort of thing that I'd say, I'd say that's pretty important. And yeah. So the boundaries be like, I'm not checking my email. if you need me, you know how to reach me, you know, send me a text message and that I'll see, but I'm not right. I'm not gonna be paying attention to the rest. And then while you're at it or even before just like go for it. Yeah, don't be scared. There might be moments that yeah, you might be scared. You'd be like, okay, what do I do now? but once you, once you're in it in it and then just enjoy it, meet people, be open minded, like be friendly. I know a lot of people, at least from my friends are like I don't, you know, if I go by myself, I wanna be in the hotel and you know sure. Have my own space and I don't care about meeting people. I just wanna, you know, go on my own relax. That's not my so travel. Yeah. I'm like, if I do that, I, I, I'm looking to meet people. I'm looking to make friends and do stuff with people. Not necessarily completely on my own. Yeah. and then just go with a positive attitude. Some things might happen. Of course you have to be open up to that, but yeah, just, just do it.

Peter Kersting: also, when you prepare the way that you're preparing and something happens, you're ready for it. Right. So that's the other aspect of solo travel is you kinda learn to adapt when things happen.

Mari Escobar: Oh, for sure. Yeah. And then yeah, like for instance, like I do, I'm all school in that sense. I right now I, yeah. I print out a calendar page with the dates. I fill it out. I write out also to make sure this goes back to the planning, but to make sure I have, I have everything I'm like, okay. I have, I, especially when you're jumping around from place to place. Yeah. To make sure you have all the hotels booked the right dates. Like sure. You don't have a gap. You don't leave a gap in between. I'm like, okay, I have this hotel from the 17th to the 19. And then the next one is from the 21 to the 24th. It's like, I mean to the 23rd, it's like, oops, I don't, I didn't book one for this night. So I always try to like write it down and make sure everything flows.

Mari Escobar: at least I, I know where I'm going. All the, I have all the flight information. I help the breaker locators. I write, I write that down. I even print it out because what happens if they steal your phone, then you're you, you don't have access to it. True. so I always have like, I'm old school in that sense. I always, I think I learned that from my father. Oh. And always carry a pen. When you're traveling. Cause you're yeah. You always need to write something or . Yeah. So it's, it's pretty useful.

Peter Kersting: That, that brings me to another point. Do you have any tips for people when it comes to being thrifty or budgeting? Well for your trip and yeah. We'll just go with that.

Mari Escobar: Mm-Hmm

Peter Kersting: whether it's booking the flight or anything.

Mari Escobar: Yeah. Pay attention to the deals too. Like this flight. Oh. And use your miles. That's very important.

Peter Kersting:

Mari Escobar: Yeah. Have a credit card that gives you good, good, good miles. And use those maximize those. Don't let your miles go to waste or even if you get a credit, like if like credit use it, other people forget, or like right now I have one that expires next month I put on an alarm on my phone. Like for this week I'm like, okay, you need to buy this soon. So

Peter Kersting: That's so funny.

Mari Escobar: You know, you gotta keep track of that also like claim your miles if, oh yeah. Sign up for every mileage club. every airline don't try to like have 10 of them. Cuz not all of, I mean, some of them you can consolidate, not all, but try to yeah. Use those. Those are free. So sign up for those. Keep track of those, use those. And then if there's an airline that you fly with that it's not, you have a freaking flyer number with, you know, there's a partner airline probably in of one of the ones that you have that you can claim those where you can claim those points.

Peter Kersting: I didn't even know you could do that. So if there's like a sister, you can no you're teaching me stuff. I actually, oh my God. I'm terrible. When it comes to claiming miles, probably leave a lot on the table. I'll be honest with you. So,

Mari Escobar: Oh my God. You're one of those. no, I'm on top of it. I keep their receipts. They last for six months. And so yeah. Yeah. No. Say like right now, if you buy something with Alaska lines, for example, I don't have like their freaking flyer thing. Sure. But I think you can claim that with Delta for something like that. Gotcha. So you go to the partner, Fairline claim it there and then you'll probably use, or at least I do, I'll use Delta more than Alaska airlines. So that happens with a lot of them. There's a lot of like partnerships. Damn. So that's pretty,

Peter Kersting: You have a spreadsheet. You're gonna share with me. You got, you gotta get me in on this.

Mari Escobar: No, but this, even though I work with spreadsheets, I don't, my personal don't use them that much. Like I have friends that have trips, they have this amazing, like huge spreadsheet. Like yeah, I do have my calendar. I write it down. Like the dates, the hotels, the flights.

Peter Kersting: Do you have like a checklist that you go through? Like a procedure mm-hmm I'm not liked that at all. So I was just curious.

Mari Escobar: I mean, I might write a PostIt like the few days before I'm like, don't forget, you know, the chargers, like

Peter Kersting: I'm just trying my best not to lose. I, the joke converted

Mari Escobar: Things, converters things, stuff like that. You know? You can't leave behind.

Peter Kersting: Yeah. Oh my gosh. I always,

Mari Escobar: Well, I don't have like a actual checklist.

Peter Kersting: yeah. I always joke with people. When I was living in Europe, I left something in every country I went to, like, I left a beanie in Finland. I left a leather jacket in Italy. I got in an argument with a cab driver and after he was trying to screw me and after I left his cab, he drove off of my leather jacket. oh no, I left. I left something. And where else did I leave stuff? I left the scar scarf and pro and I left my appendix in the Netherland.

Mari Escobar: In the appendix. Yeah, no I, no, I don't tend to lose things for the most part. Sometimes it's hard when you're like packing and unpack like that much. But no, I'm pretty good about,

Peter Kersting: About those things. Packing tips.

Mari Escobar: Oh my God. I'm terrible. I always over pack you

Peter Kersting: Over pack. Oh, OK. Not the under pack. I'm an over packer too. Actually. I'd rather over pack. Even,

Mari Escobar: Even quotation backpacking. I I'm the worst. I like, I always take too much.

Peter Kersting: That's so funny

Mari Escobar: And backpacking your phone until you actually have to put the back on your back. the back on your back. I said it wrong. Yeah.

Peter Kersting: Okay. I don't think we're gonna end on we got two more. One is, you know, we talked about being able to be a and being able to adapt. What are some ways that you need to be able to adapt more in the new, the new world that we're living in?

Mari Escobar: Yeah. You, you have to be open to yeah. Be flexible. Trips might not happen. You might get to the airport. Your COVID and this is from personal experience. you did your COVID test too early few hours early. No, no, you can't board the plane. I'm like seriously, I had everything planned. You're there like trying to check in. No, you can't go. So I mean with COVID it's a whole new world, but I guess it's just, I don't think they're doing this right now, but you know, the, the, where they avoided all the, all the fees. That was pretty awesome. Mm-Hmm you can change your flights with no with no fees. Yeah. Yeah. That was pretty good. And yeah, flight changes if they can get canceled. Yeah. The testing requirement can be annoying. You have to be aware of the timing and all the rules keep changing like every day. So you have to be

Peter Kersting: Country by country soon.

Mari Escobar: Yeah. Country by country or yeah, by day it's like, okay, today I don't have to get a COVID test, but tomorrow they might switch it. So you have to be ready. Sure. Like right now, and this is something that a friend told me, there are some like at home tests that you can do that they're valid for traveling at least to come back to the us. Ah, so you do them. I haven't, I haven't done them. I actually got them last week, but I'll be taking those with me to come back to the us. Sure. Instead of, you know, having to look for a place over there, wherever you are to get this. Sure, sure. You do this through a video and then they send you on like a certificate of saying like you're positive or not. And that counts, like you're able to fly with that

Peter Kersting: Really? Wait. So you take a video of you taking the at home test and you show 'em the results.

Mari Escobar: I think you do it like with someone like kinda life.

Peter Kersting: Oh,

Mari Escobar: Okay. And then they certify that you did the test and then they give you the results like,

Peter Kersting: Oh, so they're like watching it live.

Mari Escobar: Exactly. And then they, they give you, you know, the actual certificate, the, the

Peter Kersting: Results that's so

Mari Escobar: Like a paper results.

Peter Kersting: If you had told me, if you had told me this, like three years ago, you'd be doing a video call with somebody to see if we could make it back in the us I'd be laughing. So I

Mari Escobar: Haven't even opened them, but

Peter Kersting: You're there. That's so funny. That's clever though. I was always wondering how you could, even the at home test always seems so useless to me that that makes

Mari Escobar: Right. But I guess this is special and it's like, you know, it meets the CDC requirements.

Peter Kersting: Sure, sure, sure. Yeah.

Mari Escobar: So yeah. Last minute changes our thing. Also the it's another thing that you have to be, I guess now lately it's a COVID that changes most things, but yeah. You know, be, be, be open to it and don't get, yes, you might get frustrated. If you have time constraints, constraints, or money constraints, it makes it harder. But sometimes the experience it's all about, you know, I'm like, oh, we can't do this, let's do this other thing. And then maybe you find something that's even better than what you had in mind.

Peter Kersting: Yeah. yeah.

Mari Escobar: Yeah. That's really cool. So last year when I did the road trip with my parents, we had to change the, I also do everything with like reconciliation. That's pretty important. maybe open until like two days before. Sure. I think, think that's pretty good range. Yeah. yeah, last year we had, we had to change our trip. Like even while we were there, like a few days before every, all the bookings, I'm like, I feel like I wasted so much of my time but the weather was bad. It was raining. There were floods where we wanted to go. I'm like, there's some point in going there, you know, it's not gonna be nice weather. So we had to change everything like last minute, but we had a car, so it was easy. We didn't have, I mean, we were not constrained to flight, so play around with it and enjoy it. It's a different experience. At least with my parents, I had never done a trip like that. Like, so open up and flexible. We would only be like planned stuff. Like two days out even in Vietnam was the same. And it was like amazing. I had never done a trip like that. You'd

Peter Kersting: Never

Mari Escobar: Been on. I don't have all the, all my, I didn't have everywhere. I was staying for the whole time. Yeah. It would be, I, I mean, I think, and I think most people that I met there, I think you were the same. Like, we kind of knew where we were going, like up or down

Peter Kersting: yeah. but

Mari Escobar: We didn't know exactly how many days you wanted to stay in this place. Yeah. Or like you kinda had our route, but you know, I think a lot, not everything by day. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I think that was the beauty of it. And then you meet these people. I'm like, oh, I wanna hang out more with these people. Yeah. And you stay there for a little longer. And then

Peter Kersting: I definitely spent a lot more time in certain places in Vietnam than I thought I would sometimes it's like, oh man, I wish I had seen more or whatever. But a lot of times not planning things out is, is really what's needed. You gotta kind of feel it out. Like, are you trying to get a bunch of stuff in yeah. Plan a little more, but stay flexible.

Mari Escobar: Exactly. Exactly.

Peter Kersting: You're trying to just like have a good time and not trip out too hard. Just go with it.

Mari Escobar: Yeah. And you gotta know yourself, you gotta know your limits if you're okay with that. Or if you're not okay with that, if you're gonna be stressing out because you don't know where you're gonna spend the night.

Peter Kersting: Yeah.

Mari Escobar: Then, you know, I mean, that's why, that's why I did like one night or like two nights in a fun, at least I need to know where I'm gonna spend.

Peter Kersting: I was gonna say, when you said the thing about having to have every place booked already on your trip, on the exact opposite, like I like to have the first night booked, so I know where I'm gonna stay when I get there Uhhuh, but generally speaking, especially hosts. Right? Like you can extend your stay if you want. Yeah, yeah. Or you can be like, oh, actually that place seems pretty cool. Go check that out. And you're not stuck in a city cuz you paid 40 bucks. You know what I mean? Yeah. Cause when you're thrifty, you're kind of like, I can't leave. I spend $40

Mari Escobar: yeah. But see, you also have to be open to losing money at some point because of the flight changes and that's happening a lot. But then because of the flight changes or yeah. You decide to stay longer in this place, you're already paid for the ferry to get out that day or the train. Yeah. Well, you know yeah, yeah. At the end of it. Yeah. You look at your wallet and it hurts for a little bit, but then you had so much fun. It's like, yeah. It's okay.

Peter Kersting: Sure. Yeah. And that's a good thing to remember too. If, if you get too much in the mind of being really thrifty with the way you do things, I can be like this. You can forget to just be like, I'm on vacation. I saved for this. Yeah. I, or I spent more than I wanted to, but am I gonna, am I gonna be in, in trouble or am I just gonna have to be a little more 50 when I get back? You know?

Mari Escobar: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's another, I mean it's a little about G or take

Peter Kersting: It's

Mari Escobar: Right now. Enjoy it later. Yeah. You're ready doing the trip. Have fun. And then when you're home, you know, keep it on the download for a little bit.

Peter Kersting: and, and to your point, knowing what kind of travel you are, what kind of person you are is key there. Right? So what are you comfortable with? You're already gonna run into stuff where you have to adapt, but if you need more structure, plan it out better. Yes.

Mari Escobar: And also if you're traveling with friends, your family know who you're traveling. I don't travel with everyone. Even like my closest friends, because I know I love walking everywhere.

Peter Kersting: Yeah. Yeah. That's a really good point.

Mari Escobar: And I'm like, if you're gonna be stopping and complaining about walking, no it's not gonna work.

Peter Kersting: I'm actually really glad that you and Tanner both like to walk everywhere because that's how lot ways I saved money too. I never took a cab anywhere. I remember I was in, I was in I was in Naples for like literally one day and I was trying to see a lot of stuff. But when I went to the airport, I literally walked three hours to get the airport. And it was like one of the coolest walks I've ever done though. I was solo traveling, go anywhere. Yeah. Cause you have to go like up these Hills, like through neighborhoods and stuff

Mari Escobar: With that back. See, I

Peter Kersting: Can't, yeah, it was backpack, you know, but, but I love it cuz

Mari Escobar: My backpacks are

Peter Kersting: Heavy. I did not, I did nothing in Naples, but like that trip was fun for me because I was like walking through like just like very like authentic Italy. You know what I mean?

Mari Escobar: Exactly. That's, that's one of the things that I love about traveling. Just wondering,

Peter Kersting: Yeah. Anything that you would like to share that you feel like we haven't touched on for anybody?

Mari Escobar: What else are we missing?

Peter Kersting: What was something that your friends would ask you about? I mean, I could talk about the food thing, but

Mari Escobar: Yeah. Traveling with

Peter Kersting: Sure. You have, you have dietary restrictions. So how do you go about that? Let's go into it.

Mari Escobar: I always find something to eat. Even if it's, you know, just French fries. I won't start I might take a little longer, you know this from experience

Peter Kersting: Yeah. Yeah.

Mari Escobar: But I always find something, but it can also like affect your experience. Like I think Japan, I think that's why I didn't like love it as everybody does, because for me the food, I had trouble with the food. Mm it's. Like first they didn't speak as much English, English as I was expecting. So it was hard. Yeah. To know what the offerings were. sure there were not pictures all the time. And then I don't know here and in Puerto Rico, at least like Asian restaurants, they at least have rice, white rice. Even if it's just plain over there. No, I'm like, oh at least I gave that with like some soy sauce or something. No, they don't have that. They have everything made out of rice, but not like plain rice. And then you don't know what to order on the menu. So it wasn't until like the four, fifth day we weren't there for that long. It actually found something that I liked that I enjoyed, I was eating it's like I was starving. Yeah. But I was, I was not enjoying like what I was eating. And that's part of like, when I travel, I like to enjoy the local food and you know, mm-hmm, try different things that I don't get at home. And yeah, I think that affected my perspective. in Japan specifically,

Peter Kersting: You were hungry the whole time

Mari Escobar: yeah. And there was one point where I was like, well maybe I have to good thing. There's a McDonald's right there. I didn't end up going, but I thought about it.

Peter Kersting: Oh my gosh. Yeah. See, it's so funny cuz I love trying any kind of food anywhere. It's half of what I like about traveling. So I

Mari Escobar: Like trying new foods, but I'm thinking with

Peter Kersting: My sure. You're a little bit picky. I'm giving you a little bit of a hard time, but honestly you're not the worst. Like I said, I travel with vegans. I know I've

Mari Escobar: Always people that aren't worse than I like, I always find something. Yeah.

Peter Kersting: Yeah. I mean, no offense to vegans. I'm just like the, the country that you're in. Like there's literally no way you can find a vegan option. So it's just kinda like,

Mari Escobar: Yeah. It's it's not a thing. Yeah. It's not thing sometimes. Maybe you have to bring your own snacks.

Peter Kersting: Yeah, sure.

Mari Escobar: But at the same time there are other countries like mostly like let's say India, Indonesia, there's so many vegetarian options. Like, oh my God, I never get this at home. Cause it's so cool. And it's so delicious. Like

Peter Kersting: Where is so I

Mari Escobar: Can go both ways.

Peter Kersting: Yeah. Where is the place that you'd say, if somebody's trying to find the next place to go, you're like, this has to be on your list.

Mari Escobar: Depends on why you want to. But I mean Europe in general, it's my favorite. I never wanna leave. And I, I think I know it quite well. I've been going there like all my life different. Most of the main major cities, you know, Asia. I like, and I've started exploring it like later on like more grown up. And I like it. It's super different. It's fun. But after two, three weeks I'm like, okay, I can go back home. Europe, not so much. I'm like I never wanna leave. But I would say like Paris is my favorite city. I know a lot of people hate it. I think you're on my side or you're you're Paris hater.

Peter Kersting: No, I like Paris a lot, but I feel like

Mari Escobar: A lot of people hate it.

Peter Kersting: You gotta go,

Mari Escobar: But it's not like you have to go beyond the touristy stuff. Like when I first went for like three days when I'm like, eh, I'm not impressed. But then when I went for like two weeks and that trip that I didn't really wanted to go with to go to, yeah. I'm like, I fell in love with it cause we did other stuff beyond and then we explore other towns outside of Paris and you know sure. Just one there around it gives you another experience. And then I would say out of like the countries that surprised me the most, I think Vietnam, I was not expecting, I didn't really know what to expect. And I only found out also when you're traveling and you meet other people, they start bragging about these countries that you don't really care about. And you're like, Hmm, maybe I will check it out. So that's how I ended up in, in Vietnam. Like I went to Thailand the year before and everybody was raving about Vietnam. Yeah. And how cool it was and how cheap it was. I'm like, okay, maybe I'll put this one on my radar. And that's how I ended up there. And it was amazing. Yeah. Especially because 20, was 2020 the last trip before the world ended. Yeah. So that made it even more special.

Peter Kersting: Yeah. Yeah. I think that was my last trip too.

Mari Escobar: I think all of us yeah. Who met

Peter Kersting: On that trip? That was,

Mari Escobar: And there are so many people that were gonna travel for like a year. Yeah.

Peter Kersting: Yeah.

Mari Escobar: You know their trips got cut. Short

Peter Kersting: Shoot. Well Mari, thanks for being on the show. This is one we've been we've been planning for a long time. So finally I know finally able to make it happen. Thanks for being here. Thanks for sharing your advice. And it's always really nice to catch up, so thanks for doing it.

Mari Escobar: Yes. Thank you for having me. I hope I motivate someone. sure to get out of there, to get out there and just do it. Go for it and maybe, yeah, you, you think you don't have the money or the time right now, but also do it now while you can't. Yeah, don't wait until you're I hate it when people are like, oh, I'm gonna travel when I retire. No, just do it now. And then do it later when you retire to it.

Peter Kersting: Exactly. If people wanna follow you, where can they find you?

Mari Escobar: Yeah. Instagram @marimari4

Peter Kersting: @MariMari4

Mari Escobar: Spelling is M A R I twice. And then 4, I guess Facebook, but I don't use it much either.

Peter Kersting: We'll stick with Instagram or LinkedIn, and we'll, we'll put that in the show notes. Thanks for being on the show Mari. It's been a lot of fun.

Mari Escobar: Of course. Thank you.

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43 Stop Making Excuses. Learn to Prioritize Travel Now with Mari Escobar
25 jul 2022· Alone With Peter
On the season finale of Alone with Peter, Mari Escobar shares practical tips for travel, useful resources for staying safe, as a female/solo traveler, and good habits for saving money for your next trip so you can stop making excuses and learn how to prioritize travel!
Listen on Apple Listen on Spotify Listen on Stitcher Listen on Podchaser Listen on Apple Listen on Spotify Listen on Stitcher Listen on PodchaserThis episode of Alone with Peter is brought to you by Sagebrush Coffee
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If you’re interested in learning more about the world of coffee, Sagebrush is a great place to start. You can find their website online at Sagebrushcoffee.com and for a limited time from now until August, you can save 10% on your next order of coffee beans by visiting sagebrushcoffee.com/awp10 or by using the promo code awp10 at checkout.
Follow Mari Escobar Financial Controller and World Traveler
If you want to get in touch with Mari Escobar or see where she's off to next, check out the links below.
Instagram: MariMari4 and LinkedIn: maritereescobar
43 Stop Making Excuses. How to Prioritize Travel Now with Mari Escobar
*Transcripts may contain a few typos. With interviews ranging from 1-2 hours, it can be difficult to catch minor errors.
Peter Kersting: Welcome to Alone with Peter a podcast for entrepreneurs, artists, digital nomads, and people seeking personal growth. We are back for part three of our interview with Mari Escobar and Mari's been through a lot of different accounting jobs right now. She is a financial controller for an indie record label, which I laugh cuz I, the term financial controller sounds so intense to me. but one of the things that I know Mari better for is she's really good at maximizing her travel time, even though she has a nine-to-five job. So if you were someone who was looking for some tips and tricks on how to find a way to travel more while still doing your job and still having your boss be happy with you, Mari's gonna give us some practical tips in this episode about that, about how to travel safely, if you're a female solo traveler and so on and so forth. So thanks for coming back on the show, Mari, and are you ready? Ready to jump into this masterclass?
Mari Escobar: Let's do it. My friends have been asking for it for a while.
Peter Kersting: What exactly are your friends asking about? Let's start with that.
Mari Escobar: They're like, how do you travel everywhere? And don't take that many vacation days or like, how do you do it? Like while working a regular job? So like I mentioned before, I'd say one of my biggest, it's not really a trick, but you know, you gotta take advantage of the holidays any, any day off official day off that doesn't count as vacation, do it and combine it with your vacation. Like if for example, I'm going down to Europe, I'm using Memorial day. It might be a little bit more expensive, but you get more days out of it. You go, yeah. Instead of taking four days, I mean, five days you take four days and you can leave four 10, like I said, before you go like the Friday before you come back the Sunday, midnight before and you multiply the days.
Mari Escobar: Don't spend the days sitting at home
Peter Kersting: you gotta bookend the weekends too is other thing you're saying?
Mari Escobar: Yeah. Mm-hmm sure that's very, that's very big. That's yeah. That's how you maximize the days are these business days, the weekends don't count of course. And then try to leave AF right after work. Don't always wait until the next morning, cuz I mean, those travel hours make a difference. You can be at the destination the next morning instead of like the next night.
Peter Kersting: How long are you planning a trip before you go? Cause that seems like that's a pretty key part too. You're looking out ahead. You're like, oh, Memorial day weekend is coming up. Where do I want to go? And what days? Cuz that takes time some time and effort to think through, where am I gonna go? How am I gonna budget for it? What, how is the best way to bookend it? So how far out in advance are you looking for? Where you wanna stay and when you're gonna go,
Mari Escobar: Not too far in advance I don't plan more than two, three months before or even less. But that's one thing I know all the holidays by hand and by, especially by through the different jobs, I know which holidays we have and we don't and which ones we don't have available. Most people like don't keep track of that. I'm like, I'm on top of it. I know how many vacation days I've taken. I know how many vacation days I have left and I know the holidays coming up. I'm like, okay, there's Memorial weekend then there's July 4th and labor day. And then I don't have anything until like Thanksgiving. So I kinda like split it up around that. And I that's one thing I'm always like on top of
Peter Kersting: That's amazing. And I don't know why I haven't mentioned this earlier, but you sent me right before we did this podcast interview a list of all of the countries you've been to and it is a massive list. I am going to make sure I share it somehow with the group. But in case you think, ah, I don't know how much I believe this. How many countries have you been to?
Mari Escobar: 54. I finally put it up in an app. I mean, I was writing it. I have a, a handwritten list that I did during the hurricane. I'm like, okay, I'm gonna sit down and write how many countries I've actually been to. You know, there are some technicalities, like the Vatican is a separate country, but you know, I'm gonna use it. Sure. Towards my count
Peter Kersting: Still, 54!
Mari Escobar: Yeah. And counting it's 21% of the world. It comes up on the app.
Peter Kersting: I love that 21% of the world. Do you have, what do you have a goal to get to everywhere by a certain time?
Mari Escobar: I mean, it's impossible to get everywhere. I don't have like a special, like specific number, but I wanna try to do maybe between one or three countries, like new countries maybe per year, like this year I want, so like I mentioned before, I'm going to Europe now and I wanted to squeeze in a new country. But it was getting complicated so I'm, I'm doing like a new city. But the new country was like getting into too much, but later in the year I'm like, I need to get at least one during this year/
Peter Kersting: Sure, sure, sure. I'm curious. What have been some of the repeat places for you?
Mari Escobar: Too many most of Europe is a repeat. But I just love going there. It's just like, I never wanna leave. So yeah, I, I don't do that. Like I know people who go to one place and they don't wanna repeat it because I've been there. Sure. But I've been traveling all my life and there's a place that I like. I go back to it. I do try to add new activities or new cities or, you know sure. Not always do the same thing, but in terms of country, I'm like, I try to, or even mix both. You do one old and then one new one. And that's also like right now, like I've seen most of the touristy spots in a lot of places, but I go back and I try to like, not necessarily completely avoid those, avoid those, but you know, I just wanna like go walk around and explore the city.
Mari Escobar: Sure. Without any rush, I don't need to go into the loop and see them on. At least I've seen that. I just wanna walk around, sit in the cafe for hours and you know, relax. Like, yeah. So it's a different kind of traveling and I don't wanna be rushing. I don't like those like three day trips. Like you do three days, three day, three days. And you're like switching every day. No, I like also like getting to know a place better than doing four cities and you know, just getting like one day or two days in each.
Peter Kersting: Sure. Is there anything else before we keep moving past it about maximizing your work days off and your travel time that you wanna add?
Mari Escobar: Also now take advantage of the remote life. And that's what I did. The last two years you can combine both like you can work a few days remotely. Yeah. You have to take your laptop with you, which can be annoying. But it lets you also, you can find cheaper flights cuz you don't have to leave on that Friday, which is more expensive. You can leave on Wednesday work Thursday and Friday, and then you start your vacation the next week. Or like last year I went to Spain for like two weeks. I worked one week and I took the other week as vacation. So that lets you use more of the days.
Peter Kersting: Sure. The fact that you're actually able to work in a new country, you can still do something after work. If you're good about saying I'm done at this time or if your job allows you to do it at any time, if you want. Cause that's
Mari Escobar: Probably, yeah. It can also be hard depending on, you know, the time difference too. Sure. You can be tricky. Sure. and trying to explore a new city and you know, have to be working, but it's not, it's manageable. I'd rather do that than not go at all and right. I think that's my, that's my motto for a lot of things. like, I'd rather do it this way than not go or yeah. You know, you have to sacrifice one thing that you have to work longer hours for a few days in order to be able to take that trip or, you know, skip going out for lunch in order to, you know, use that money, that sort of thing.
Peter Kersting: sure. I mean, and that's a valuable lesson, whether it's trying to maximize your travel time or anything else you wanna do, you have to prioritize it and that means not prioritizing other stuff. Right. Mm-hmm sure. So you talked about planning versus not planning sort of already, but how do you go about funding, your travel? What are some things that you could suggest to people as far as how they can prioritize travel? They're serious about it? How can they do a better job preparing for financially?
Mari Escobar: Well, I guess for this, yeah. You have to do it in advantage of like, oh next week I'm I'm heading out. If you can, that's perfect. But if not try to your budget yourself and be like, okay, I cannot be going out that much this week or for a few weeks, like I'm gonna be holding off on those like a hundred dollars dinners. Like this is LA. So that happens more frequent then you would think stuff like that. And then there I've, there's always a meme. I've seen it a couple times when it's like so accurate. It's like you say, you don't have money for the, for the trip, but you know, tries bringing lunch into, into work and you'll be saving what sure. $50 to a hundred a week. And then by the end of the month you can buy flight somewhere
Peter Kersting: Or, or be like Tanner Combias and, buy like a sandwich while your friends are drinking beers or something.
Mari Escobar: I saw that. I heard that.
Peter Kersting: Oh, I love it though. It's so great. But you're right.
Mari Escobar: Something else in the tip of my mouth and I just forgot.
Peter Kersting: No, I'm sorry.
Mari Escobar: It's okay. Keep going.
Peter Kersting: I was just gonna say that the reason you're able to do that for a couple is partly because you know where you want to go and you know that you're prioritizing travel. So like when you go, like I'm gonna go, you're going to Paris next right. Specifically. Mm-hmm ly so have you already turned down, going out to dinner with somebody this, this last couple weeks? Or like, is that something you end up having to do, right?
Mari Escobar: yes. I'm yeah. I'm gonna keep it to like $50 a night. The most I can't do like this hundred nights. Like it's like 400 weekends. No,
Peter Kersting: That's so funny.
Mari Escobar: Like I need to hold off a, a little bit and all the concerts. I love going to concerts. So the last few ones I'm like, okay, I need to, you know, hold myself a little bit because I'm going on this trip pretty soon.
Peter Kersting: So on the aspect of funding, your travel, there's finding the time from work and there's also saving the money. Is there anything in general else that you say like, man, people really don't think about this, but this is an important part about preparing for the trip. If you're gonna do it more often.
Mari Escobar: Oh, this is what I remember. Eh, kind of it's like DBA, but everybody, I like, oh, you're a millionaire. You have so much money right to travel? I'm like I have okay money. But also like from the solo travels, you always meet people and then you go stay with it and then you don't spend money on a hotel.
Peter Kersting: Bingo.
Mari Escobar: So, yeah. So I do that a lot and that's another way to save money of maximize your vacations and so far I've, I've been like super lucky, like my mom's like, what do you know about these people? It's like people that I've met for like one or two days and God knows what country. Sure. And then they welcome me and they open me like their house and their family welcomes me, you know? Like, come here, stay with us. You can have, you know, mi casa es su casa.
Peter Kersting: Yeah.
Mari Escobar: And it happens more than you might think.
Peter Kersting: More than you might think. Yeah. When you think about there's lot of negative things about the internet, but that is one of the things too. Like I even sounds kind of crazy, but sometimes like you meet somebody through a work related thing, you work with them, but you've never met them. Then you go mm-hmm and you get to stay with them or something like that. Yeah. As long as you have, like, you're smart about it, obviously this is, you know, disclaimer, be careful who you spend time with. But of course, yeah. You know, I remember I'm just thinking there's there's like a list of people that I've met, like one time who I was like, I'm gonna visit you someday. And I definitely go, like, I need to get out there just so I could go visit their country and also spend time. Exactly.
Mari Escobar: Yeah. I try to do it within like one year before of within the, of the offer. So it doesn't expire.
Peter Kersting: Sure that's a good point
Mari Escobar: One to two years. So for instance, like right now I'm going to Paris and I'm meeting. So one friend, well she's from GU she lives in Berlin right now. We met in Pedro in the hostel, but we bonded because she loves Puerto Rico. And like we became instant friends only one day exploring Peru. And then she's like, when are you coming to Guatemala? I think I'm. I remember I went to Mexico. I posted on Facebook. She's like, when you're coming to Guatemala. Oh my, I don't know. She's like, no, you gotta come. You gotta come. And Guatemala had never been, you know, I had never been specifically interested. She's like, no, we can do this, this and this. I'm like, if I don't go, now that I have a local host, I'm not gonna go. Sure. So I went for it and it was amazing. Nice. And then I'm meeting here now in Paris.
Mari Escobar: It's been what like five years or more since we did that trip and yeah. You keep meeting each other, like, you know, like all our, all the travelers are the same. You don't know where they are living now or where they're moving around next. So, but you keep in touch. There's also all this mean toos. Like, you know, all these people you at on your travels and then you're seeing their life unfold on like social media every, and you only met them once. Yeah. But yeah. So even you, like, I mean, I haven't seen you, but I'm sure I'll, I've run into you at some point.
Peter Kersting: Yeah you will have to.
Mari Escobar: You invited me out to your wedding. Another friend that I met in Vietnam, like he lives in Seattle now I have like a super cool crew in Seattle that I go back to visit like all the time. So that's awesome. You make friends and then you visit them and you keep exploring the world together or like through connections that you make through each other.
Peter Kersting: Yeah. And there's something about the travel community. That's very, like, it's just tight knit in the sense. It's like, you're crazy enough to go out and do this stuff where everybody thinks we're crazy for doing this stuff, but it's so cool.
Mari Escobar: Exactly, but it's like all the same type of crazy.
Peter Kersting: Yeah. Yeah. And it's really, I don't think it's that crazy, but I guess, yeah,
Mari Escobar: Yeah, no, I heard that a little. I was like, oh my God, you're crazy. Why are you going on your own? And I do remember, like I was still in New York when some guy was traveling by himself. I'm like, ew like why, why do you do that? Like how like, is it even fun? Sure. and then look at me where I am.
Peter Kersting: yeah. Well that brings us to the next point, cuz I bet there's plenty of people who like the idea of solo traveling, but they're scared about the safety aspect of it. Especially if you could speak to the women who are interested in solo travel, what are some ways you can make sure you're staying safe while you're traveling?
Mari Escobar: Yeah. I mean, you can't be too fearful you gotta go for it. If you think about it, you're never gonna go anywhere. But I would say, I mean, you have to be aware of your surroundings. Like you are everywhere potential to what you have. Like who's walking around you also. I mean, I try to give my parents or like close friends, like information of where I am. I'm like, yeah, I'll be staying this hotel. These are my flights. Or, you know, to keep track of, I'm like I'm meeting this person here and here and there. And you know, we, we all have like, I travel a lot as a single girl. I'm like, okay, you go on the, on those Tinder dates, you know, you give your friends, the information of who you're admitting just in case. Cause you never know. Yeah.
Mari Escobar: So yeah. I'd say like sharing information is good. So people know where you are or they have an idea of where you are. You're gonna necess I think if you're posting stuff on social media that helps two people know that, you know, you're, you're still doing okay. But if you don't do that all the time, just have your close people know that, that you are here, like have an idea of where you are. Also. I usually mostly I do this in Asia you can register with a department of state your travels and then if there's an emergency, they let you know like this is happening. You should get out of there. I think this is for us citizens. I don't know if it applies, this country has something similar, but sure, sure. I feel that's helpful too. And just in general, yeah. Be careful. Obviously you have to be careful of who you meet, but the travel I'd say like the travel community, especially like when I travel by myself, I go to hostels and then you meet so many people. Like, so like-minded people you feel easy or feel comfortable and you're never really alone. So
Peter Kersting: Yeah. And there's definitely an aspect too, of if you're new to traveling, traveling in a group makes a lot of sense. And then as you kind of branch out, there's a certain element of trust in your gut and making sure, you know, people are kind of how they appear to be before you just spend a bunch of time with them too. Right.
Mari Escobar: Yeah. Don't go into this dark alley at night by yourself, obviously that sort of thing.
Peter Kersting: right. I mean, and some of this stuff seems like really obvious, but even though you're not much of a planner, do you ever like try to pay attention to like, I mean, I, you go a lot in America or you're like, what is the, what is this political climate here right now? Or like, where should I avoid? Or
Mari Escobar: Yeah. Those are things that you, you need to know, like what's happening in the country at the time. If there's like some riots or strikes, like be careful and like, yeah. I mean, you know, some places are not as safe as others, so sure. Maybe those ones don't go by yourself. sure. Or try to find someone to do stuff with you or like go on a tour if you don't feel that safe or it's like, let's say like that day do like a group activity. Yeah. Just to, you know, don't be completely on your own if you don't think it's too safe.
Peter Kersting: Right. And that's also a great way to meet people too. Like you said, doing a walking tour, taking a chance to get your lay of the land is always a nice way to start your trip anyway.
Mari Escobar: Yes. I always try to do that.
Peter Kersting: Yeah. I definitely think it's smart to know what's going on in the country you're from what to expect, like what kind of places to avoid too. So I wonder, yeah. Do you have any resources you would suggest like, oh, this is a great site to look at. I think the state department thing sounds really interesting. Maybe you could share that with me in fact.
Mari Escobar: Yeah. I usually use that one. You're not familiar with it?
Peter Kersting: I don't know if there's a specific link you wanna share with me. I can put in the notes. I've heard of it before, but.
Mari Escobar: I'll share that later. But yeah, I think since the first time that I went to Asia, I've registered there and I still get like alerts. It's cuz you put the country that you're visiting to and then like, you know, like with COVID I was still getting alerts from like Thailand. It's like Thailand still has very high cases don't we don't advise you to travel there right now. Sure. So you get those others to, even though you put the, your trip details. And that was years ago. and I still did this. Yeah, but it's a good way for, I mean, if there's an emergency, they know you're there, you know, they can get you out.
Peter Kersting: Right. They need to get a U.S. Embassy involved or whatever.
Mari Escobar: Exactly. So I'd say that's pretty useful in terms of research, like like I was telling you off the air, I guess there's a Facebook group called girls love travel. I love that one. You'll you'll see stories. I mean granted, they're pushing you to be a girl or I think identify as a girl. But it has like, I think maybe a million. So there's people there from all over the world. It's pretty fun. Even though like, even though you don't post, you just follow, like the stories people tell there are like cool to see. And then everybody shares their travel stories. So I go there to do research and I get like suggestions of places to go like within each country. Like they give you cool places to go. There's another one, like female solo traveler. So I'm on a few of those like Facebook groups which is helpful. And that's where I start my research sometimes when I'm looking for info on a new country.
Peter Kersting: Yeah. Thank you for sharing those. Cuz there are other ones that are not as exclusive too. And, and that kind of thing is always a really good way to know what is the current situation like? You know, people will be sharing if they're having a hard time. Mm-Hmm they're gonna say right.
Mari Escobar: Yes Exactly.
Peter Kersting: Or if they're like, dude, this place is so cool, you need to check it out and then that's also gonna give you ideas for what to do.
Mari Escobar: That's also how I get interested in new places too. And then people post pictures and like all their cool experiences. And now they, they, they have a couple like subgroups of the same of the same group. They also have one which is like kinda like couch surfing where people like, they're like, oh, I'm visiting this place. If there's someone who off, you know, have a place for me to stay, we can switch. Or even just to meet up, they have like that too love. And I actually got to meet the owner and sell like at one in one time. So that was pretty cool. They do trips too. Like they organize their own trips and then they have like different age groups that they split it by. So it's a, it's a pretty active group and yeah, I really like it. It's, it's a fun one even just to watch and you know, repeat stories. They also have connect people and like, oh, this happened to me in this country and this other girl that, so my post and this group helped me out, you know, that sort of thing.
Peter Kersting: That's awesome.
Mari Escobar: So the magic of the internet.
Peter Kersting: Yeah. Yeah. No, it's true. Sometimes it's just like, man, that's why it exists. .
Mari Escobar: Yeah, exactly.
Peter Kersting: Something we've kind of discovered over the last couple episodes I'd love to hear more from you, your thoughts and encouraging other people. What kind of attitude do you need to have to thrive? Whether you're solo traveling or just trying to travel more often. And I guess maybe you could tackle that from two standpoints, as an employee, who's looking to travel more. What's a good attitude to have about trying to get where you wanna be. If that's not where you're at and two, when you're traveling, how do you enjoy that more?
Mari Escobar: So I guess while you're working, you know, put in the hours, I mean, if you have to, if it's required, put the hours before and after just to get your job done, you gotta show your, your boss that, I mean, you care about your job. You just, it's not like you're just being lazy. You know, obviously we all deserve vacation, but you have your test that you need to finish. So it's not like I'm gonna leave this in the middle of, you know, what it is and I'm gonna leave it hanging and they, they're not gonna know what to do with it while I'm out. And even though they might, so you gotta, you know, finish your task, communicate and be like, this is what I'm working on. This is what I have pending, if anything. And so I'll work with this, like when I get back and this is what I'll be, what I'm gonna leave you done before.
Mari Escobar: Sure. So that sort of thing that I'd say, I'd say that's pretty important. And yeah. So the boundaries be like, I'm not checking my email. if you need me, you know how to reach me, you know, send me a text message and that I'll see, but I'm not right. I'm not gonna be paying attention to the rest. And then while you're at it or even before just like go for it. Yeah, don't be scared. There might be moments that yeah, you might be scared. You'd be like, okay, what do I do now? but once you, once you're in it in it and then just enjoy it, meet people, be open minded, like be friendly. I know a lot of people, at least from my friends are like I don't, you know, if I go by myself, I wanna be in the hotel and you know sure. Have my own space and I don't care about meeting people. I just wanna, you know, go on my own relax. That's not my so travel. Yeah. I'm like, if I do that, I, I, I'm looking to meet people. I'm looking to make friends and do stuff with people. Not necessarily completely on my own. Yeah. and then just go with a positive attitude. Some things might happen. Of course you have to be open up to that, but yeah, just, just do it.
Peter Kersting: also, when you prepare the way that you're preparing and something happens, you're ready for it. Right. So that's the other aspect of solo travel is you kinda learn to adapt when things happen.
Mari Escobar: Oh, for sure. Yeah. And then yeah, like for instance, like I do, I'm all school in that sense. I right now I, yeah. I print out a calendar page with the dates. I fill it out. I write out also to make sure this goes back to the planning, but to make sure I have, I have everything I'm like, okay. I have, I, especially when you're jumping around from place to place. Yeah. To make sure you have all the hotels booked the right dates. Like sure. You don't have a gap. You don't leave a gap in between. I'm like, okay, I have this hotel from the 17th to the 19. And then the next one is from the 21 to the 24th. It's like, I mean to the 23rd, it's like, oops, I don't, I didn't book one for this night. So I always try to like write it down and make sure everything flows.
Mari Escobar: at least I, I know where I'm going. All the, I have all the flight information. I help the breaker locators. I write, I write that down. I even print it out because what happens if they steal your phone, then you're you, you don't have access to it. True. so I always have like, I'm old school in that sense. I always, I think I learned that from my father. Oh. And always carry a pen. When you're traveling. Cause you're yeah. You always need to write something or . Yeah. So it's, it's pretty useful.
Peter Kersting: That, that brings me to another point. Do you have any tips for people when it comes to being thrifty or budgeting? Well for your trip and yeah. We'll just go with that.
Mari Escobar: Mm-Hmm
Peter Kersting: whether it's booking the flight or anything.
Mari Escobar: Yeah. Pay attention to the deals too. Like this flight. Oh. And use your miles. That's very important.
Peter Kersting:
Mari Escobar: Yeah. Have a credit card that gives you good, good, good miles. And use those maximize those. Don't let your miles go to waste or even if you get a credit, like if like credit use it, other people forget, or like right now I have one that expires next month I put on an alarm on my phone. Like for this week I'm like, okay, you need to buy this soon. So
Peter Kersting: That's so funny.
Mari Escobar: You know, you gotta keep track of that also like claim your miles if, oh yeah. Sign up for every mileage club. every airline don't try to like have 10 of them. Cuz not all of, I mean, some of them you can consolidate, not all, but try to yeah. Use those. Those are free. So sign up for those. Keep track of those, use those. And then if there's an airline that you fly with that it's not, you have a freaking flyer number with, you know, there's a partner airline probably in of one of the ones that you have that you can claim those where you can claim those points.
Peter Kersting: I didn't even know you could do that. So if there's like a sister, you can no you're teaching me stuff. I actually, oh my God. I'm terrible. When it comes to claiming miles, probably leave a lot on the table. I'll be honest with you. So,
Mari Escobar: Oh my God. You're one of those. no, I'm on top of it. I keep their receipts. They last for six months. And so yeah. Yeah. No. Say like right now, if you buy something with Alaska lines, for example, I don't have like their freaking flyer thing. Sure. But I think you can claim that with Delta for something like that. Gotcha. So you go to the partner, Fairline claim it there and then you'll probably use, or at least I do, I'll use Delta more than Alaska airlines. So that happens with a lot of them. There's a lot of like partnerships. Damn. So that's pretty,
Peter Kersting: You have a spreadsheet. You're gonna share with me. You got, you gotta get me in on this.
Mari Escobar: No, but this, even though I work with spreadsheets, I don't, my personal don't use them that much. Like I have friends that have trips, they have this amazing, like huge spreadsheet. Like yeah, I do have my calendar. I write it down. Like the dates, the hotels, the flights.
Peter Kersting: Do you have like a checklist that you go through? Like a procedure mm-hmm I'm not liked that at all. So I was just curious.
Mari Escobar: I mean, I might write a PostIt like the few days before I'm like, don't forget, you know, the chargers, like
Peter Kersting: I'm just trying my best not to lose. I, the joke converted
Mari Escobar: Things, converters things, stuff like that. You know? You can't leave behind.
Peter Kersting: Yeah. Oh my gosh. I always,
Mari Escobar: Well, I don't have like a actual checklist.
Peter Kersting: yeah. I always joke with people. When I was living in Europe, I left something in every country I went to, like, I left a beanie in Finland. I left a leather jacket in Italy. I got in an argument with a cab driver and after he was trying to screw me and after I left his cab, he drove off of my leather jacket. oh no, I left. I left something. And where else did I leave stuff? I left the scar scarf and pro and I left my appendix in the Netherland.
Mari Escobar: In the appendix. Yeah, no I, no, I don't tend to lose things for the most part. Sometimes it's hard when you're like packing and unpack like that much. But no, I'm pretty good about,
Peter Kersting: About those things. Packing tips.
Mari Escobar: Oh my God. I'm terrible. I always over pack you
Peter Kersting: Over pack. Oh, OK. Not the under pack. I'm an over packer too. Actually. I'd rather over pack. Even,
Mari Escobar: Even quotation backpacking. I I'm the worst. I like, I always take too much.
Peter Kersting: That's so funny
Mari Escobar: And backpacking your phone until you actually have to put the back on your back. the back on your back. I said it wrong. Yeah.
Peter Kersting: Okay. I don't think we're gonna end on we got two more. One is, you know, we talked about being able to be a and being able to adapt. What are some ways that you need to be able to adapt more in the new, the new world that we're living in?
Mari Escobar: Yeah. You, you have to be open to yeah. Be flexible. Trips might not happen. You might get to the airport. Your COVID and this is from personal experience. you did your COVID test too early few hours early. No, no, you can't board the plane. I'm like seriously, I had everything planned. You're there like trying to check in. No, you can't go. So I mean with COVID it's a whole new world, but I guess it's just, I don't think they're doing this right now, but you know, the, the, where they avoided all the, all the fees. That was pretty awesome. Mm-Hmm you can change your flights with no with no fees. Yeah. Yeah. That was pretty good. And yeah, flight changes if they can get canceled. Yeah. The testing requirement can be annoying. You have to be aware of the timing and all the rules keep changing like every day. So you have to be
Peter Kersting: Country by country soon.
Mari Escobar: Yeah. Country by country or yeah, by day it's like, okay, today I don't have to get a COVID test, but tomorrow they might switch it. So you have to be ready. Sure. Like right now, and this is something that a friend told me, there are some like at home tests that you can do that they're valid for traveling at least to come back to the us. Ah, so you do them. I haven't, I haven't done them. I actually got them last week, but I'll be taking those with me to come back to the us. Sure. Instead of, you know, having to look for a place over there, wherever you are to get this. Sure, sure. You do this through a video and then they send you on like a certificate of saying like you're positive or not. And that counts, like you're able to fly with that
Peter Kersting: Really? Wait. So you take a video of you taking the at home test and you show 'em the results.
Mari Escobar: I think you do it like with someone like kinda life.
Peter Kersting: Oh,
Mari Escobar: Okay. And then they certify that you did the test and then they give you the results like,
Peter Kersting: Oh, so they're like watching it live.
Mari Escobar: Exactly. And then they, they give you, you know, the actual certificate, the, the
Peter Kersting: Results that's so
Mari Escobar: Like a paper results.
Peter Kersting: If you had told me, if you had told me this, like three years ago, you'd be doing a video call with somebody to see if we could make it back in the us I'd be laughing. So I
Mari Escobar: Haven't even opened them, but
Peter Kersting: You're there. That's so funny. That's clever though. I was always wondering how you could, even the at home test always seems so useless to me that that makes
Mari Escobar: Right. But I guess this is special and it's like, you know, it meets the CDC requirements.
Peter Kersting: Sure, sure, sure. Yeah.
Mari Escobar: So yeah. Last minute changes our thing. Also the it's another thing that you have to be, I guess now lately it's a COVID that changes most things, but yeah. You know, be, be, be open to it and don't get, yes, you might get frustrated. If you have time constraints, constraints, or money constraints, it makes it harder. But sometimes the experience it's all about, you know, I'm like, oh, we can't do this, let's do this other thing. And then maybe you find something that's even better than what you had in mind.
Peter Kersting: Yeah. yeah.
Mari Escobar: Yeah. That's really cool. So last year when I did the road trip with my parents, we had to change the, I also do everything with like reconciliation. That's pretty important. maybe open until like two days before. Sure. I think, think that's pretty good range. Yeah. yeah, last year we had, we had to change our trip. Like even while we were there, like a few days before every, all the bookings, I'm like, I feel like I wasted so much of my time but the weather was bad. It was raining. There were floods where we wanted to go. I'm like, there's some point in going there, you know, it's not gonna be nice weather. So we had to change everything like last minute, but we had a car, so it was easy. We didn't have, I mean, we were not constrained to flight, so play around with it and enjoy it. It's a different experience. At least with my parents, I had never done a trip like that. Like, so open up and flexible. We would only be like planned stuff. Like two days out even in Vietnam was the same. And it was like amazing. I had never done a trip like that. You'd
Peter Kersting: Never
Mari Escobar: Been on. I don't have all the, all my, I didn't have everywhere. I was staying for the whole time. Yeah. It would be, I, I mean, I think, and I think most people that I met there, I think you were the same. Like, we kind of knew where we were going, like up or down
Peter Kersting: yeah. but
Mari Escobar: We didn't know exactly how many days you wanted to stay in this place. Yeah. Or like you kinda had our route, but you know, I think a lot, not everything by day. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I think that was the beauty of it. And then you meet these people. I'm like, oh, I wanna hang out more with these people. Yeah. And you stay there for a little longer. And then
Peter Kersting: I definitely spent a lot more time in certain places in Vietnam than I thought I would sometimes it's like, oh man, I wish I had seen more or whatever. But a lot of times not planning things out is, is really what's needed. You gotta kind of feel it out. Like, are you trying to get a bunch of stuff in yeah. Plan a little more, but stay flexible.
Mari Escobar: Exactly. Exactly.
Peter Kersting: You're trying to just like have a good time and not trip out too hard. Just go with it.
Mari Escobar: Yeah. And you gotta know yourself, you gotta know your limits if you're okay with that. Or if you're not okay with that, if you're gonna be stressing out because you don't know where you're gonna spend the night.
Peter Kersting: Yeah.
Mari Escobar: Then, you know, I mean, that's why, that's why I did like one night or like two nights in a fun, at least I need to know where I'm gonna spend.
Peter Kersting: I was gonna say, when you said the thing about having to have every place booked already on your trip, on the exact opposite, like I like to have the first night booked, so I know where I'm gonna stay when I get there Uhhuh, but generally speaking, especially hosts. Right? Like you can extend your stay if you want. Yeah, yeah. Or you can be like, oh, actually that place seems pretty cool. Go check that out. And you're not stuck in a city cuz you paid 40 bucks. You know what I mean? Yeah. Cause when you're thrifty, you're kind of like, I can't leave. I spend $40
Mari Escobar: yeah. But see, you also have to be open to losing money at some point because of the flight changes and that's happening a lot. But then because of the flight changes or yeah. You decide to stay longer in this place, you're already paid for the ferry to get out that day or the train. Yeah. Well, you know yeah, yeah. At the end of it. Yeah. You look at your wallet and it hurts for a little bit, but then you had so much fun. It's like, yeah. It's okay.
Peter Kersting: Sure. Yeah. And that's a good thing to remember too. If, if you get too much in the mind of being really thrifty with the way you do things, I can be like this. You can forget to just be like, I'm on vacation. I saved for this. Yeah. I, or I spent more than I wanted to, but am I gonna, am I gonna be in, in trouble or am I just gonna have to be a little more 50 when I get back? You know?
Mari Escobar: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's another, I mean it's a little about G or take
Peter Kersting: It's
Mari Escobar: Right now. Enjoy it later. Yeah. You're ready doing the trip. Have fun. And then when you're home, you know, keep it on the download for a little bit.
Peter Kersting: and, and to your point, knowing what kind of travel you are, what kind of person you are is key there. Right? So what are you comfortable with? You're already gonna run into stuff where you have to adapt, but if you need more structure, plan it out better. Yes.
Mari Escobar: And also if you're traveling with friends, your family know who you're traveling. I don't travel with everyone. Even like my closest friends, because I know I love walking everywhere.
Peter Kersting: Yeah. Yeah. That's a really good point.
Mari Escobar: And I'm like, if you're gonna be stopping and complaining about walking, no it's not gonna work.
Peter Kersting: I'm actually really glad that you and Tanner both like to walk everywhere because that's how lot ways I saved money too. I never took a cab anywhere. I remember I was in, I was in I was in Naples for like literally one day and I was trying to see a lot of stuff. But when I went to the airport, I literally walked three hours to get the airport. And it was like one of the coolest walks I've ever done though. I was solo traveling, go anywhere. Yeah. Cause you have to go like up these Hills, like through neighborhoods and stuff
Mari Escobar: With that back. See, I
Peter Kersting: Can't, yeah, it was backpack, you know, but, but I love it cuz
Mari Escobar: My backpacks are
Peter Kersting: Heavy. I did not, I did nothing in Naples, but like that trip was fun for me because I was like walking through like just like very like authentic Italy. You know what I mean?
Mari Escobar: Exactly. That's, that's one of the things that I love about traveling. Just wondering,
Peter Kersting: Yeah. Anything that you would like to share that you feel like we haven't touched on for anybody?
Mari Escobar: What else are we missing?
Peter Kersting: What was something that your friends would ask you about? I mean, I could talk about the food thing, but
Mari Escobar: Yeah. Traveling with
Peter Kersting: Sure. You have, you have dietary restrictions. So how do you go about that? Let's go into it.
Mari Escobar: I always find something to eat. Even if it's, you know, just French fries. I won't start I might take a little longer, you know this from experience
Peter Kersting: Yeah. Yeah.
Mari Escobar: But I always find something, but it can also like affect your experience. Like I think Japan, I think that's why I didn't like love it as everybody does, because for me the food, I had trouble with the food. Mm it's. Like first they didn't speak as much English, English as I was expecting. So it was hard. Yeah. To know what the offerings were. sure there were not pictures all the time. And then I don't know here and in Puerto Rico, at least like Asian restaurants, they at least have rice, white rice. Even if it's just plain over there. No, I'm like, oh at least I gave that with like some soy sauce or something. No, they don't have that. They have everything made out of rice, but not like plain rice. And then you don't know what to order on the menu. So it wasn't until like the four, fifth day we weren't there for that long. It actually found something that I liked that I enjoyed, I was eating it's like I was starving. Yeah. But I was, I was not enjoying like what I was eating. And that's part of like, when I travel, I like to enjoy the local food and you know, mm-hmm, try different things that I don't get at home. And yeah, I think that affected my perspective. in Japan specifically,
Peter Kersting: You were hungry the whole time
Mari Escobar: yeah. And there was one point where I was like, well maybe I have to good thing. There's a McDonald's right there. I didn't end up going, but I thought about it.
Peter Kersting: Oh my gosh. Yeah. See, it's so funny cuz I love trying any kind of food anywhere. It's half of what I like about traveling. So I
Mari Escobar: Like trying new foods, but I'm thinking with
Peter Kersting: My sure. You're a little bit picky. I'm giving you a little bit of a hard time, but honestly you're not the worst. Like I said, I travel with vegans. I know I've
Mari Escobar: Always people that aren't worse than I like, I always find something. Yeah.
Peter Kersting: Yeah. I mean, no offense to vegans. I'm just like the, the country that you're in. Like there's literally no way you can find a vegan option. So it's just kinda like,
Mari Escobar: Yeah. It's it's not a thing. Yeah. It's not thing sometimes. Maybe you have to bring your own snacks.
Peter Kersting: Yeah, sure.
Mari Escobar: But at the same time there are other countries like mostly like let's say India, Indonesia, there's so many vegetarian options. Like, oh my God, I never get this at home. Cause it's so cool. And it's so delicious. Like
Peter Kersting: Where is so I
Mari Escobar: Can go both ways.
Peter Kersting: Yeah. Where is the place that you'd say, if somebody's trying to find the next place to go, you're like, this has to be on your list.
Mari Escobar: Depends on why you want to. But I mean Europe in general, it's my favorite. I never wanna leave. And I, I think I know it quite well. I've been going there like all my life different. Most of the main major cities, you know, Asia. I like, and I've started exploring it like later on like more grown up. And I like it. It's super different. It's fun. But after two, three weeks I'm like, okay, I can go back home. Europe, not so much. I'm like I never wanna leave. But I would say like Paris is my favorite city. I know a lot of people hate it. I think you're on my side or you're you're Paris hater.
Peter Kersting: No, I like Paris a lot, but I feel like
Mari Escobar: A lot of people hate it.
Peter Kersting: You gotta go,
Mari Escobar: But it's not like you have to go beyond the touristy stuff. Like when I first went for like three days when I'm like, eh, I'm not impressed. But then when I went for like two weeks and that trip that I didn't really wanted to go with to go to, yeah. I'm like, I fell in love with it cause we did other stuff beyond and then we explore other towns outside of Paris and you know sure. Just one there around it gives you another experience. And then I would say out of like the countries that surprised me the most, I think Vietnam, I was not expecting, I didn't really know what to expect. And I only found out also when you're traveling and you meet other people, they start bragging about these countries that you don't really care about. And you're like, Hmm, maybe I will check it out. So that's how I ended up in, in Vietnam. Like I went to Thailand the year before and everybody was raving about Vietnam. Yeah. And how cool it was and how cheap it was. I'm like, okay, maybe I'll put this one on my radar. And that's how I ended up there. And it was amazing. Yeah. Especially because 20, was 2020 the last trip before the world ended. Yeah. So that made it even more special.
Peter Kersting: Yeah. Yeah. I think that was my last trip too.
Mari Escobar: I think all of us yeah. Who met
Peter Kersting: On that trip? That was,
Mari Escobar: And there are so many people that were gonna travel for like a year. Yeah.
Peter Kersting: Yeah.
Mari Escobar: You know their trips got cut. Short
Peter Kersting: Shoot. Well Mari, thanks for being on the show. This is one we've been we've been planning for a long time. So finally I know finally able to make it happen. Thanks for being here. Thanks for sharing your advice. And it's always really nice to catch up, so thanks for doing it.
Mari Escobar: Yes. Thank you for having me. I hope I motivate someone. sure to get out of there, to get out there and just do it. Go for it and maybe, yeah, you, you think you don't have the money or the time right now, but also do it now while you can't. Yeah, don't wait until you're I hate it when people are like, oh, I'm gonna travel when I retire. No, just do it now. And then do it later when you retire to it.
Peter Kersting: Exactly. If people wanna follow you, where can they find you?
Mari Escobar: Yeah. Instagram @marimari4
Peter Kersting: @MariMari4
Mari Escobar: Spelling is M A R I twice. And then 4, I guess Facebook, but I don't use it much either.
Peter Kersting: We'll stick with Instagram or LinkedIn, and we'll, we'll put that in the show notes. Thanks for being on the show Mari. It's been a lot of fun.
Mari Escobar: Of course. Thank you.
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42 Traveling the World with a 9-to-5 Job – 54 Countries and Counting with Mari Escobar
18 jul 2022· Alone With Peter
I can't travel. I've got a normal job It's time to throw out that old excuse. You CAN travel with a normal job. You've just got to find a way to prioritize it. Mari Escobar has been to 54 countries and counting all while working a "normal" 9-to-5 job. How on earth does she do it? Find out in part 2 of our interview, 42 Traveling the World with a 9-to-5 Job - 54 Countries and Counting with Mari Escobar.
Listen on Apple Listen on Spotify Listen on Stitcher Listen on Podchaser Listen on Apple Listen on Spotify Listen on Stitcher Listen on PodchaserThis episode of Alone with Peter is brought to you by Sagebrush Coffee
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Follow Mari Escobar Financial Controller and World Traveler
If you want to get in touch with Mari Escobar or see where she's off to next, check out the links below.
Instagram: MariMari4 and LinkedIn: maritereescobar
42 Traveling the World with a 9-to-5 Job X 54 Countries and Counting with Mari Escobar
*Transcripts may contain a few typos. With interviews ranging from 1-2 hours, it can be difficult to catch minor errors.
Peter Kersting: Welcome to Alone with Peter a podcast for entrepreneurs, artists, digital nomads, and people seeking personal growth. We are back with Mari Escobar who is going to be talking to us about her experience as a solo traveler and how she maximizes her work to be able to pursue travel more often. If you've been making the excuse that you can't travel because you have a normal job and they don't wanna give you time off. Well, maybe you'll find some tips in this interview about how you negotiate some of that. Bottom line is if travel is important to you, you can find a way to make it happen. That's something I'm excited to talk with Mari Escobar about. In this second part of our interview, Mari will dive a little bit more into some solo travel stories and all the above.
Peter Kersting: We ended last week though, talking about your first experience traveling alone, in Paris and how that changed you. Could you touch on some of the things that you really learned about yourself from that experience? You hinted about it a little bit last week.
Mari Escobar: Yeah, for sure. I would say the main thing is just like, I was not as shy anymore. And I learned to like talk to anyone around me because I mean, you're on your own. So you have to talk to someone at some point, right? And you have to figure out where you are, you know, you can't rely on anyone. It's all you, the money decisions, like where to go next and like, what happens if something goes wrong or stuff like that. But at the same time, it's like, you can do whatever you want. You don't have to be up to like anybody's schedule. And if you wanna sit here on the sidewalk of the street and ineat your falafel just do it here. Nobody cares. Make friends with the people next to you. Keep walking and stop by the next bench and, you know, take your time to enjoy the scenery nobody's rushing you. It's a whole different experience. I love traveling with my family, with friends, but solo traveling is a whole other world out there.
Peter Kersting: What is it about the solo travel that you've found you've enjoyed the most? It seems like I know for me, it's kind of what you're just touching on about, like, you could just eat your falafel and take 15 minutes on the bench if you want, or you could just keep running, you know, mm-hmm I love that you get to set the pace, cuz sometimes when you're with other people, even as not as much as you love being with them, it, you kind of have to just be more like, all right, what do you wanna do?
Mari Escobar: Yeah. You don't need to compromise. You just compromise as you, so yeah. Sounds selfish. But you know, it's, you can't enjoy it while you can. And then you also meet, I mean, you have to make this a point you also meet so many people like for like-minded and then you don't spend that much time on your own. Like, people are like, oh my God, you're crazy. Like, where are you going on your own? Like, something's gonna happen. Obviously mom gets worried. And even like all my friends, like, what are you doing? Like who does that? Right. But at some point I'm like, whenever I talk to my mom, when I'm like traveling, she's like, I haven't spent any time on my own. Like I've met so many people and we're all on, on the same page. We always, we all wanna see like this store's attraction or we wanna do like this excursion somewhere.
Mari Escobar: So it's super easy. Again, like you have to put yourself out there and be on that social mode. But if you do, and if, once you, once you open up, it's like so easy and then it's yeah, it's, it's a lot of fun, but at the same time, like the other side is like, sometimes you don't wanna feel that social. I'm like, Ugh, I don't wanna do those small talks again. And you know, try to meet new people. Like there there's always like one night it's like, okay, I, I I'll just eat and you know, go back to, to my place and not, yeah, don't have to go through that.
Peter Kersting: totally, totally. And it's an interesting aspect of it too, is you probably learn what you're comfortable with and what you're not comfortable with.
Mari Escobar: Mm-Hmm
Peter Kersting: Is anything popping into mind with you? I'm just curious, like I know for me, man, I, I could think of definitely there have been times where I'm like, I have to figure this out on my own and this is really stressful. But after the fact, I was really glad that I had to figure it out on my own. Cuz it's kind of what made the trip exciting
Mari Escobar: Sometimes. I don't know. Maybe when, I mean, we've all been lost at some point your GPS is not working or you don't, you don't always have like cell phone reception or like a sim card or like wifi, my phone. I don't have one of those international plans that, oh, I don't always have a SIM card. So it's like, okay. Yeah. Now I need to get wifi, try to find a place that has it. And you know, maybe if I'm trying to meet with someone and I'm like, oh, I need to find a place that has it. Try to go to like burger king and see if you can sneak in or Starbucks. That sort of thing can get annoying. But at the same time, other times it's like, okay, let me figure out, let me grab a map. I do love like old school maps. I don't always like the GPS. I like when I first get to a place, I try to get like a paper map, see where I am. I'm like, okay, where should I go? I go to like the counter. I'm like, okay, mark up the, the main places to go and you know, figure it out on your own.
Peter Kersting: Really? On the physical map? You just like to get it out and do that. I love that? I would never have thought.
Mari Escobar: I'm one of those.
Peter Kersting: That's so funny. I love that.
Mari Escobar: I'm old school. I have it in my purse. And I mean, you, you need to know where to open it. Cause obviously you look super obvious, like a tourist.
Peter Kersting: Yeah. Yeah.
Mari Escobar: But I do like seeing it and seeing like the whole picture of the city and like where you are and when you wanna go, you know, on the GPS
Peter Kersting: Sure.
Mari Escobar: On a phone, you can do it. But you know, it's such a small image. It's not, it doesn't necessarily give the whole big picture. And like,
Peter Kersting: Plus one thing I would say to your point is that when you're looking at the phone for directions somewhere, I often don't look up. I'm just kind like, alright, why is it taking me? And when you're traveling, the whole point is like pay attention what you're doing. Right. So yeah, if you do the physical map, you have to like orient yourself and then go, and then you could just be kind of like present to what's what's going on.
Mari Escobar: I mean, you also have to be looking, but yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Like pay attention to like street names and see where you are. Right. Or try to ask, like, if you don't have a phone, it's like, oh, where am I? Like try to, yeah. Yeah. Even if you know, a few words in the language, try to like butcher them. people like at least sometimes, you know, you know the name of one main sure. Attraction and people with like, even if it's with signals, you can get there.
Peter Kersting: Do you have a story that pops to mind? One of your favorite stories about getting lost somewhere and having to figure it out?
Mari Escobar: Not
Peter Kersting: Particular? Well, I'll come back to it.
Mari Escobar: I just like wondering around that's part of, one of the things that I love about traveling.
Peter Kersting: You, you made me think of a, you made me think of a, I'm not gonna tell a story right now is too long. But I had my, I first went to Europe in 2016. I got an appendicitis the first day I was in the Netherlands and I had to have an emergency appendectomy. And maybe I've told you this story.
Mari Escobar: I think I've heard this story. Yeah.
Peter Kersting: But you made me think of that because I had to ride my bike around with no cell service and figure out how to get to the hospital while my appendix bursting and you had to do it.
Mari Escobar: I did have something similar. Not, not as bad, but yeah. Yeah. In the hospital, in, in Italy. Well, I had to go to the hospital in Italy once and I was like, I mean, I threw the map. You found like where it is. So I, I went walking from the hostel, but then I had to look for the emergency room and it was not just one building. There's like 10 buildings and you're like walking around. I can understand Italian, but I don't speak Italian. Right. So, but I got to learn like proto, I never forget this proto is like emergency room. So I kept asking, like, I couldn't find it. I had like no cell phones. So I kept asking the people. Yeah. Yeah, like don't this, that proto, like, you know, that was the key word. So they would like point out or they would say it in, in Italian and I could guess more or less, but it took me a while to get there.
Peter Kersting: it took me…
Mari Escobar: Yeah. And there's it's that's not gonna be on the map on the, like the paper map that they give you. So that was, yeah.
Peter Kersting: Wait, wait, wait. You can't skirt over the whole white. You were at the hostel. You need to go to emergency room. Let's hear the story.
Mari Escobar: I can't skip through that. I went through the map getting lost. Yeah. Yeah. But yes, this was during my first Europe, Europe, like solo travel.
Peter Kersting: That first solo travel trip.
Mari Escobar: Yeah. but I mean, this was on and off. I have been with friends already, some other like solo parts, but Italy. I did. Yeah, I did on my own. This was in Rome and I went to the hostel. I mean, I was fine. I, you know, I had been exploring, maybe had been there, I think one or two days already. And so I wear contacts when I travel just to, I don't wear glasses on my daily life, but when I travel, I like to see everything. I don't know where I am. So I like to read the, the signs. be able to read the signs from far. So I was just wearing my contacts, nothing like out of the ordinary. And then I go to, I go to bed. It, it, it was a bunk bed and you know, those things, the drawers that go on the bottom, like the, where you put your bags. Sure. But in this one it was all like metal and like the bed, I don't know, the drawer would not open if like someone was sleeping there, it would like push it. And it was hard to, to open up
Peter Kersting: It'd get jammed.
Mari Escobar: Does that make sense?
Peter Kersting: Huh? It would get jammed.
Mari Escobar: Yeah. It wouldn't get up because of the weight. Like it couldn't.
Peter Kersting: Oh, I see if someone was lying on top of it. Okay.
Mari Escobar: Yeah. I was like on the top bunk, so there was someone in the bottom and I couldn't like open my bed. I didn't wanna like wake them up. So AmeI'm here going , you know, I'll sleep with my contacts. Nothing's gonna happen. And then, so I did, and through the night I started like feeling really bad. Like my eye would like, would be teary. Like my, I got like stuff, you know? So I'm like, I, I would be like tossing and turning. I couldn't sleep. I felt bad because of my roommates. It was like maybe four of us in the room.
Peter Kersting: Yeah.
Mari Escobar: And I didn't wanna be it too noisy, but at some point I, I figure out a way to like, not even open the thing, the basket below the, under the bed, but managed to get like the contact case or something out . And I finally took the contacts out and like, my eyes were bad. I couldn't like, yeah. I had like the sinus, like stuffing notes. It was weird. Gosh. And I was like, I was feeling fine before this. I remember I was having dinner. I met people at dinner. It was amazing. I was like, okay, I'll go to sleep. And this whole thing happened like the next day I, yeah, I couldn't sleep. I'm like, there's something wrong here. And I think my eyes was getting like red. And after a while I went, I think I went downstairs to the reception and I remember the girl was from Venezuela, so I could speak Spanish with her. Sure. And she's like, yeah, your eye doesn't look. Right. maybe like, go have it checked. Yeah. And she was like, very kind. And she's like, well, I'm gonna write you a letter in Italian saying what you have and you showed us at the emergency room. And she's like, the hospital was not too far from where we were. So I, I walked to the, to the hospital and that's when I was looking for the .
Mari Escobar: Yeah. And I kept asking people around like, where is it? Where is it? And after maybe like 30 minutes or so, or maybe more I was able to find, oh no, cuz it was not just, that's what it was. There's like emergency room specific for like the eyes or like, you know, the it's not I, how do you call it? OCUL whatever. It's
Peter Kersting: Sure, sure. The emergency room specifically for that though?
Mari Escobar: Like I think each specialty had their own, like you had to go to like the,
Peter Kersting: You had to go to specialist for, for your eyes.
Mari Escobar: I think like one building, like, you know, the eye building and the
Peter Kersting: Steps. the eye building. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mari Escobar: The eye building or you know, or like the knee building. So they were all separate. So I had to look for the emergency room for the, I for the eyes so that was even like, you know, more specific. But when I, when I finally got there, at least someone spoke English and oh God, they were nice. I age just wait here. And they prescribe like some eye drops and they're like, yeah, don't wear your contacts for a few days. I think you, you put like, you know, like a dirty one because
Peter Kersting: My gosh,
Mari Escobar: And then like just use this for a few days, use your regular glasses and then you should be all right. And that happened. But yeah, the, the, the whole thing of getting to the hospital, finding it, giving her the letter that in Italian, I was ready. I was like, okay, if they asked me this is what's happening.
Peter Kersting: Right.
Mari Escobar: So that was helpful. And the girl was pretty helpful. He was also free, which I was surprised. So it was a nice surprise.
Peter Kersting: Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Mari Escobar: Yeah. And something similar. I didn't yeah. Japan that we were talking about really not in the hospital, but I also had a letter saying, so I'm a vegetarian. So , my friend was like, here's a letter saying, you're vegetarian. You don't eat this and this. So show this to the waiter.
Peter Kersting: Yeah. Yeah. That probably helped a lot. I, when I was living in Korea, I was friends for a while with some people who were vegan and they had the hardest time trying to explain to people cuz they can speak good enough Korean. Right. Like, yeah.
Mari Escobar: Being vegetarian in Japan was rough.
Peter Kersting: I can't eat that. Like and they're like eat this. And you're like, yeah, that's so funny.
Mari Escobar: Yeah. Yeah. But yeah. That's the hospital story. So yeah. You learn to do those things on your own. Like who are you gonna call ghostbusters? They're not next to you.
Peter Kersting: also, you still love to do solo travel even though that happened.
Mari Escobar: Yeah. I mean you have to be open for what is it? Adversity. Yeah. Like, you know, things, things happen. It's not, it's the same as if you're with someone, you just, but yeah. You have to figure it out on your, on your own. if anything, I mean you can call someone, but let's say you gotta, you gotta, you gotta deal with it. right. And grow.
Peter Kersting: Right. Yeah
Mari Escobar: Man. That's part of the experience.
Peter Kersting: I agree with you. That's that's the part that I've always enjoyed about the solo travel is you kind of have to figure it out and you learn, you learn, you learn a lot about yourself basically.
Mari Escobar: Right? Well, I can do this. It's no big deal. It's good. Other people would probably be crying. Oh my, oh my God, what do I do now? I'm like, I's
Peter Kersting: Just go. Let's be honest. Sometimes you cry. Which you still figure it out, you know? Or is it that's just me for the
Mari Escobar: Most part? no. Well, I mean it can get frustrating at points.
Peter Kersting: Well, I mean, I just, like, there are times it can be definitely stressful, but it's almost always worth it. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Yes.
Mari Escobar: I mean, you might miss the train. You might miss the flight, but yeah.
Peter Kersting: You miss plenty
Mari Escobar: Of those then at the same time, you're like, well, no, I have an extra day to do this other thing that I didn't get to do.
Peter Kersting: You might have somebody still your flip Flos or your backpack.
Mari Escobar: Yep.
Peter Kersting: When, when we, I was thinking about this story the other day, I'll tell the story. I'll tell the story. Okay. Because otherwise our listeners gonna have no idea what you're talk, what we're talking about. So we met in Hanoi, which is Northern part of Vietnam. And then when we split ways, we all did something different. You, me and Tanner, who's also been on the show. Right. And at some point the two of us, you and myself met back in Danang, which is kind of central Vietnam. And at least one of the nights we ended up staying at the same host. And I don't
Mari Escobar: Know, just for like three nights,
Peter Kersting: I feel like I had already been there a couple days or did I just stay? I think you were right before. Yeah, I had right after.
Mari Escobar: No, you were right before. Okay.
Peter Kersting: No. Okay. No, you're I
Mari Escobar: Think I right before
Peter Kersting: I did, I think you're right. I think I arrived before and I think I ended up staying longer than you too. I was at that hostel for a while, but one of the nights we got back and I was like all bummed. I was like, man, somebody broke into my room and they stole my sandals and
Mari Escobar: You look at me, you,
Peter Kersting: You look at me and you're like, really? Is that all? No, but
Mari Escobar: You're no you're missing the beginning. I got robbed first.
Peter Kersting: Oh, did you get robbed first? I'm remembering it wrong then. Well, okay, so you got robbed and you're talking about all the stuff you got stolen from your room and how everybody broke in there. Yeah. This is how it went in the morning. Your stuff was gone. Right?
Mari Escobar: We wake up, we wake up. I'm like, Hmm. My locker is not, this is not how I left it. Last time my back was open. Like yeah, yeah, yeah. And I noticed like, oh my watch is missing. Sure. And then so, and I think that lock was different. Like you could tell
Peter Kersting: Somebody, you could tell somebody messed with your lock too. I remember that. And we went down and we found out from the people, yeah. Somebody broke, somebody
Mari Escobar: Else was complaining, cuz somebody else lost their
Peter Kersting: Phone. Somebody else lost something. And I'm thinking like, man, that sucks for you guys. You know? And then I'm like, you're
Mari Escobar: So
Peter Kersting: Victor, I went back upstairs. Well I went back upstairs and I was like, oh, nobody touched my stuff. That's cool. And exactly. And then I start walking back out. I'm like, wow, I got really lucky. You know, that's nice. And then I look and I'm like, what? My sand,
Mari Escobar: No, but I think we went out for the whole day and then he wasn't until we got back at
Peter Kersting: We, I think you're right. When we got back, I was like, where my sandals.
Mari Escobar: Yeah. Where are my flip flips? I'm like how there you have
Peter Kersting: It. Also also I felt really bad because I was like kind of complaining for like a few seconds about who would steal somebody's sandals, you know? Cause who would do that? But then at the same time, I'm like, oh, you know, she actually got like a bunch of money stolen and other stuff like,
Mari Escobar: Yeah. Yeah. That was a funny story. You saw, you didn't get anything stolen.
Peter Kersting:
Mari Escobar: The one behold your flip Flos were gone.
Peter Kersting: I missed my Brazilian flip Flos I like those flip Flos a lot.
Mari Escobar: Yeah. You said they, they had some special meaning.
Peter Kersting: Somebody gave 'em to me as a gift. They had sentimental value, but it's just like, okay. I
Mari Escobar: Mean, anything sucks that gets stolen,
Peter Kersting: But sure, sure. And it was pretty lousy of me to complain about losing my sandals when you lost money and stuff. So sorry about that. But
Mari Escobar: Yeah. I remember I lost my, watch, my swatch as my travel, my travel watch.
Peter Kersting: That's such a bummer. That's such a bummer.
Mari Escobar: Yeah. But even then it's that's that's, that's what happens. I mean, those things happen, but you, you think I hate my travel just because of that. No, everything else was so much fun. Like I love Vietnam just because that happened. And so like, oh my God, my, my trip was destroyed. Yeah.
Peter Kersting: Also those stories and the being really fun to look back on too, how you're like, oh, was crazy. Something
Mari Escobar: To
Peter Kersting: Talk about. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And yet I'm sure when you go back to work, you pretty much don't tell too many stories cuz people are just like rolling their eyes. I, I kind feel
Mari Escobar: Most people do wanna do what I hear. Oh my God. Tell me. And yeah,
Peter Kersting: In my experience, people
Mari Escobar: The closest once.
Peter Kersting: Okay. Fair. But if they haven't traveled, I feel like people oftentimes are like, I can't, I don't understand what you're talking about. So it's I don't really
Mari Escobar: Wanna listen. No, most people I'd say most of my friends are interested.
Peter Kersting: Oh that's good.
Mari Escobar: Maybe not at work. Maybe a few but yeah. Most of my friends do it. They do wanna hear the stories and, and yeah. I like, I like sharing
Peter Kersting: Them. That's awesome. Well, I wanna take a step back from the travel stuff a little bit here and talk about your ability to maximize travel even while working as much as you do. So maybe let's start by taking a look at what the job we already talked about was you worked for Ernst and young, right. And yeah, you left after a couple years, the amount of hours, the lack of flexibility was a big deal. So as you changed jobs over the years, since then, what are some of the things you've done and, and how have you learned to kind of prioritize as you've changed jobs?
Mari Escobar: Yeah. I mean the priority has always been there. so I always make sure it happens in like in EY they had an option of buying like extra days. Yeah. so they would take money out of your paycheck and to give you like more vacation days, I'm like take whatever you want. I gimme the days, like the first year I didn't do it cuz you know, I'm new. I don't wanna look, you know, like I want too much vacation, but after I'm like, I'm like, I don't care even today. And then it depends like with the other jobs also in Puerto Rico, there's a lot of holidays, which is good. I always take advantage of those. Like there's we have the us holidays plus our own like Puerto Rican holidays. Sure. So it ends up being, I think they changed that now, but it ends up being like 19 holidays, which is like, you know yeah. A lot of extra day. So
Peter Kersting: That's nice. That's
Mari Escobar: Nice. And then yeah. So after EY, I worked at a like payment processing company in Puerto Rico and yeah, that had really good benefits. Like besides all the holidays you get, I think maybe 20, 25 vacation days. And then after that I did a startup, which gave me, I started in Puerto Rico and then that's the one that moved me into salt lake city after the hurricane and that one, you know, it's a start. So they're trying to be cool. So they gave us 30 days of vacations, but I was probably the only one who used CELTA all the days. That's so crazy. I guess also my position allows it like in the startup, at least maybe we were 20, but I'm not part of like the developing team. Like I, the, the startup doesn't depend on me. So like my job, like I was able to take more days, like the, the developers couldn't necessarily take all the vacation days that I did.
Mari Escobar: But I always make sure to get to, to use my days and the holidays. Everybody always, no matter which job everybody's like, how many vacation days do you get? I'm gonna complain. I'm like, I get the same amount that you do. I just know how to use them wisely. I don't take vacation days to sit at home and do nothing. I'm like, oh, I'm gonna relax. No, my vacation days are to travel to go somewhere. And so that's one of my, I have some friends that are like, I need you to gimme a master class. So maximizing like vacation days, I'm like, I'm recording a podcast tonight and this is it.
Peter Kersting: Well, let's get into it a little bit in part three. We're gonna go hardcore into that. Cuz, this is exactly what we wanna talk about.
Mari Escobar: Yeah. So that's one of the main things. And then I also like if you take it's a five-week bus, I mean five business weekdays, right? Right. Five business day week, I use five days and I go for like 10 days you go like the Friday before, leave after work, anything after 6:00 PM is fair game and then you come back the week, the weekend after Sunday at midnight, I don't come back Saturday before at one, just to relax the next day going to work on Monday. Now I go, I probably like go like super sleepy on Monday, but I'm not wasting another vacation day. Just to make it up and sure. Feel fine. And the jet lag and all that. No.
Peter Kersting: Do you ever bring work with you?
Mari Escobar: No. Now because of the remote life, but before this, no. I'm like if they don't ask me to bring the laptop to check emails, I don't. So I've been lucky to enough to be able to do that. And not, not everybody can do that or not everybody chooses to do it, even it at the big four, which was like super pressing. I'm like, no, I'm not checking emails. If it's an emergency, you can text me. I'm not ritual for this time. The start was a little different because it's fewer people. There's only me, you know, running the finance.
Peter Kersting: Sure, sure, sure.
Mari Escobar: But it's it I've been lucky in that since I'm like, you know, if it's vacation is vacation, I'm not gonna be, don't expect me to be checking emails. No. If, if it's an super emergency, you know how to reach me
Peter Kersting: then that you make that sound really simple though. Is that something that, and, and it's not necessarily to just know when to shut it off and, and just leave it alone. So obviously that's something that you're personally good at your boundaries. Mm-Hmm is that a conversation you had when you were getting hired or is it just expectations you set while you're at work? You're like, Hey, if you get a try to get ahold of me outside of work, you're not gonna do it. And people just finally go, oh, okay.
Mari Escobar: I mean, I do it like right before I'm leaving a vacation. It's not something that I talk about. I'd say like during the hiring process or anything like that. Sure. But you know, like you have to communicate and be like, before I'm going on a, on a trip, I'm like, okay, this is what I need to finish before, before I go, this is what I'm working on. And then I always say like, if you need me, you know, you know how to reach me, but don't expect me to
Peter Kersting:
Mari Escobar: To check on anything. Sure.
Peter Kersting: So, well, but
Mari Escobar: It depends on the culture and like you, I, I don't know. You need to know who you're working with and how, how that relationship goes. Cause I know not everybody does it or manages to do it that
Peter Kersting: Way. Is that the way you're thinking though, when you're looking for a new job, like when you took the job you're working for currently for the indie Latin record label yeah. Was that kind of what you're feeling out is how, how, how are they as employers? Are they gonna be chill about me doing my thing? Or you know, like how do you, how do you decide like this is a place I wanna work because they're probably gonna let me do this stuff.
Mari Escobar: Yeah. I mean, sometimes it's hard to get a feel, I mean, from a few interviews, but say for, in this one I had to negotiate for more vacation days cuz they wanted to gimme like 10 days. I'm like me with 10 days. No, not happening. So I was able to like negotiate a little bit more. And I was ready to not take that job if it was only like 10 days, you know? Yeah. So
Peter Kersting: That sounds like it's a key right there. Huh? I said, that sounds key right there that you have to be okay with walking away if they don't give you what you want
Mari Escobar: For me. Yes. Like vacation days are pretty important. like in the other jobs I had, like, I didn't have to do that because I had a lot of days sure. But no, I cannot do it like 10 days, which sadly enough, it's the average for, for a lot of like yeah. Offices in the us. But yeah, for me, that that's pretty important. And I think I, I set the, the tone at the beginning that I, I like traveling and the traveling is important. Mm-Hmm and you know, vacation days are a big deal for me. I'll use them so
Peter Kersting: Right. Yeah. So that's, I mean, that sounds like an important aspect there too, because you're being transparent. Hey, I like to travel. The reason I'm asking for this is that I need that time to be able to travel,
Mari Escobar: But I also do my job. So, you know, it's
Peter Kersting: Like, right.
Mari Escobar: It's not like I'm being lazy. I'm gonna, I mean, I wish I could take, you know, six months out of the year but I get my work done. And if I need, if I'm going on a trip, you have to like kill yourself the week before and the week after to catch up. Sure. But I'm fine with that. I mean, I still get to enjoy my trip. I don't get bothered with work during that time. Yeah. So I'm okay. Killing, like, you know, sleeping it away before and after just to be able to make, to go on.
Peter Kersting: That must be a that is something you and you and Tanner have in common in a way too. I think because it's kind of like, this is the goal, the longer-term goal, I wanna be able to do this for a period of time. Yeah. So what do I need to do now to make sure that happens? Is that something you've always naturally this kind of how you're geared or do you think you've just learned that from your work experience to kind of be that way? Like, cuz it sounds like from what you're telling me, you've got pretty clear, first of all, you got a pretty clear idea of what you're looking for. That helps. But also you're pretty okay with telling people what your boundaries are like, Hey, I'm not gonna talk to you on the weekend. Cause I'm not working.
Mari Escobar: Yeah. Even like not even traveling, like if you email me on the weekend, I'm not gonna see it until Monday.
Peter Kersting: Yeah. but most people have a hard time with that. Especially, especially nowadays where you work from home. Like I sometimes catch myself working six or seven days. Not like eight-hour days. I never do eight-hour days, but yeah. I'll do like three-hour days for eight, seven days though. And it's like,
Mari Escobar: No, I don't. Sometimes I
Peter Kersting: Don't anymore.
Mari Escobar: And even now with the remote. Yeah. So I never like, you know, you can download your email application on your phone. I never did that up until now because of the remote cuz you know, that's pretty helpful. Yeah. But I don't have the notifications on if I wanna see my work email, I have to like go in there. I don't wanna see pop up and see all the 10, 20 emails. Like, so that way I know it's there, but I don't have it like popping up on my face.
Peter Kersting: And I'm sure at a certain point, your work gets to know like if I email Mari on a Saturday, I'm not gonna hear until Monday morning.
Mari Escobar: Pretty much yes.
Peter Kersting: Yeah. That's good.
Mari Escobar: Yeah. Yeah.
Peter Kersting: I'm trying to think where I wanna go from here. Cause we're talking about, you know, how you've been changing jobs over time. Maybe you could tell me a little bit about what is it that you're doing now and your current job? How is it different than what you've been doing before, and what are you enjoying about it?
Mari Escobar: I mean it's pretty similar. It's still in the numbers field, but I do enjoy this a lot more. So it was kind of like a career switch even though for some, for people who are not familiar with like the business environment sounds the same but yeah, I started in tax accounting then I went to getting out of taxes was a little hard. That was, that took me a little longer. It ended up being a year that I was not working that's when I did the travel. Right. And yeah, it ended up being a year because I'm like at that point I didn't wanna leave Puerto Rico, obviously, it's not the best job market. And I knew, I knew what I didn't want. I'm like the job that I could get here is another big four. I don't want that. Hmm. So it took me a while to get something else and trying to get out of taxes was hard. So it took me a little longer and I was picky. I mean, I was fortunate enough to be picky. I was living at home. So that helped. I didn't have any stress
Peter Kersting: In, in Puerto Rico. Right?
Mari Escobar: Yeah. So like my parents were kicking me out or anything like that. So I had the book tree to be able to choose the one that I wanted and I ended up getting one as a financial analyst, which is more general. It, was definitely a downgrade, but you know, sometimes you have to go down and then go up the way you want. Sure. and I think that's what happened. Now I'm at a point like I love my job. I have a life and it's still in the same, you know, financial field, but it's not as stressful as the one that I had before. So after that one, it opened up the, what do you say? Yeah, I guess the field. And then I went into the start of as a, the original title was like corporate treasurer that never happened and then turned out being financial controller.
Mari Escobar: I had no idea that was a position they started calling me that I'm like, okay, sure. Sounds important. so then and yeah, I went into that and then that's the same thing that I have the same title that I have right now. It's pretty similar different industry. Now I'm in the music industry, but the skills and the tests are about the same. So I did, I mean, it's a learning process. I've been learning a lot, especially in the startup. I, it was a, the learning curve was amazing. And just to see how you've run a business, like before that it had been in huge companies, like, you know, ston, youngest, multinational, you have, especially in New York, you have, I was on the 33rd floor. You had like 35. Yeah. 35 story building with, I don't know how many thousands of people sure.
Mari Escobar: Then in, in Puerto Rico, not as big, but you know, still pretty big. And you know, you're, even though that office is small, you're part of a huge company. Right. You know, like that bureauc is like different and to get something done, it takes like, I don't know how many people, how many layers, all that kind of thing. And then switching to a small company where you see everything, you have to wear many hats. Yeah. It's a very different experience. I went like, yeah, I was doing the finance, but at the end I started, they had me doing like recruiting. I had never done that. interviewing people really. Which was cool. And at the same time I be like doing the Costco run to get snacks so , and then you get to see he was tiny. So you get to see the owner, like, you know, doing all the phone calls, trying to get investors, like you don't see that in, in a, in a big company.
Mari Escobar: So that was, that was a pretty interesting experience. And from that, and like a lot of the things that, that owner stressed about or like wanted us to like implement, it was super easy for me to doing this new job. Like one of the main things I remember is like, I don't wanna be doing checks, like who does checks anymore? Everything has to be online. Like, you know, do a wire transfer, set up everything online. So I don't have to sign anything. Right. And guess what, that's what I had to do with this new company, with the pandemic. I'm like, they were still doing checks, doing a little paper stuff. And I was trying even be like, I mean, I started right before the pandemic, but I was trying to push for that. I'm like, why are we still doing checks when we can do this? Like online? So that was super easy and like transferable from one to the other. Sure. And look what happened, everything ended up being remote. So I was like driving them in the, in the right path.
Peter Kersting: ah, I'm sure that I always love hearing people's career trajectory, even like, like you've stayed in at least similar field of work, even though each place has been really different. Mm-Hmm but going from a big company to a small company and seeing, seeing those different aspects, I, I really, I find that fascinating and I wonder does it, does it make you more interested in, in doing something for yourself in the long run that on the business side of things? Or do you kinda like working for somebody else? You seem like a work smarter, not harder type to me.
Mari Escobar: Yes. I try.
Peter Kersting:
Mari Escobar: I feel like, I mean, I'm not oppos entrepreneurial, but I feel like I don't have a brilliant idea to to bring up eventually maybe. Sure. But I feel like I need more experience. I don't know.
Peter Kersting: And
Mari Escobar: It's not, I, I wouldn't say I don't have like that mindset right now or
Peter Kersting: Sure.
Mari Escobar: I'm not opposed to it, but I feel like, I don't know. Also I've kind of changed. Like I haven't stuck to one same. How do you say role for level? Sure. I feel like I need a little bit of more experience if I want to like, you know, focus on doing that, like doing something on my own.
Peter Kersting: You mean specializing in something for longer, rather than making a switch or
Mari Escobar: Yeah. And maybe like eventually become just a consultant or even if I don't open like my own, I don't know business, but you know, something that I could do on my own there that I can be like, okay, everybody come to me for advice.
Peter Kersting: sure. If you did go the route of starting your own business or working freelance, would it be in something like this financial consulting?
Mari Escobar: I think so. Yeah. Yeah. Something like that.
Peter Kersting: Interesting stuff. Well, I think we're gonna wrap up this second part of our interview with Mari Escobar right there in part three, we're gonna be introducing practical tips for people who are looking to maximize their travel hours with work. We're gonna kind of take what we learned from MA's past and try to give you some tips for that as well as solo travel as a female, especially. So if you're looking for, I don't know, better ways to do that safer ways to do that. We're gonna be talking about some of that on the next episode of Alone with Peter. So be sure to check that out next Monday, wherever you get podcasts.
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41 Where to Next? World Travel and Finding a Work-Life Balance with Mari Escobar
11 jul 2022· Alone With Peter
Today, we are joined by a very special friend of mine, Mari Escobar a Financial Controller for an indie record label in Los Angeles, and a world traveler. Mari has been to 54 countries and counting all while working a normal 9-to-5 job. In this interview, we'll talk about how she prioritizes and negotiates travel with her work, where her love of travel came from, and what it was like for her as a Puerto Rican studying in the United States of America.
Plus, stick around to learn how Mari, Tanner Combias, (You can listen to that interview here) and I know each other!
Listen on Apple Listen on Spotify Listen on Stitcher Listen on Podchaser Listen on Apple Listen on Spotify Listen on Stitcher Listen on PodchaserThis episode of Alone with Peter is brought to you by Sagebrush Coffee
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Mari Escobar Financial Controller and World Traveler
If you want to get in touch with Mari Escobar or see where she's off to next, check out the links below.
Instagram: MariMari4
LinkedIn: maritereescobar
41 Where to Next? World Travel and Finding a Work-Life Balance with Mari Escobar
*Transcripts may contain a few typos. With interviews ranging from 1-2 hours, it can be difficult to catch minor errors.
Peter Kersting: Welcome to Alone with Peter a podcast for entrepreneurs, artists, digital nomads, and people seeking personal growth. Today, we are joined by a very special friend of mine, Mari Escobar. And this one's fun because if you have listened to the podcast for a while, you maybe remember I talk with somebody from the Big 4 named Tanner Combias. I met Tanner in Vietnam. Well, guess what? I also met Mari in Vietnam and Mari also worked for one of the Big 4 financial firms. We'll talk about that as we go through this episode, but one thing that I think is really special about Mari is anybody who knows her for long enough will be like, okay, where is she now? Because you're literally always somewhere different. You're always traveling. You're always going on some kind of trip. And I can't wait to dive into what that looks like. How do you prioritize travel? You have a normal nine-to-five-plus job. Right? And I think most people, think that's not possible. So we'll talk about your travel experience, but we'll also talk about what you do for a living. Getting into solo travel a bit, especially as a girl, I think that's gonna be an interesting topic and just catch up on some travel stories and stuff. So, you know, with that in mind, Mari, how, how have things been for you lately?
Mari Escobar: Hey, thank you for that introduction. It's very true. Nobody asked me, how are you? It's like, where are you now? where are you going next? So yeah. Yeah. Doing good now in LA I'm kinda, I've been here for a couple of months, but you know, I'm taking off in a couple of weeks.
Peter Kersting: nice.
Mari Escobar: I gotta keep it going.
Peter Kersting: Yeah. Where are you to next?
Mari Escobar: I am going to Europe. So I'm doing Paris, Italy, and Dublin.
Peter Kersting: Nice. You, you never get tired of it. Do you?
Mari Escobar: Of course not.
Peter Kersting:
Mari Escobar: Never enough.
Peter Kersting: Yeah. We're gonna, we're gonna talk a fair amount about these different things, but Alone with Peter, we like to go through different segments. So this is a three-part interview. We're, we're all strapped in for here, and starting in part one, we're gonna be talking a little bit more about your background, right? So I wanna talk about your professional background, your personal background, and also kind of dive into your love for travel. So I wanted to start with where are you from originally?
Mari Escobar: Yeah, so I grew up in Puerto Rico and then I left for school, but my father's Panamanian. So that's kind of like, it was always an excuse to travel, to go visit family. So that was part of our, my upbringing, I guess, but yeah, born and raised in Puerto Rico. And I've been in the states let's say on and off like 10 years.
Peter Kersting: Yeah. And you mentioned that you mentioned your family has played a pretty big role in why you love traveling so much. Do you mind sharing what traveling, growing up was like for you guys?
Mari Escobar: Yeah. vacation was always like very important. We at least would plan like one big trip of like two weeks, somewhere, mostly Europe. And we would usually have that sometimes plus going to Panama, you know, to visit family. So those were like two big ones, like usually around the summer. And my father always like put that into me. He's like travel now that you can don't wait till you are old, when your knees hurt and you can't walk, you gotta do it now.
Peter Kersting: That's really great advice. Yeah,
Mari Escobar: I took that very seriously.
Peter Kersting: well, and obviously sounds like the way that your family traveled has had an impact on you, right?
Mari Escobar: Mm-Hmm we like to do stuff, explore, like we're very practical. We don't do like super fancy vacations, you know, three star hotel will do, but we go in an Explorer for like 12 hour days and just walk around, get lost and get to know the place. We're not all about, you know, have a fancy dinner, sit down for like three hours and then, oh, now we're tired. No, even with my parents, like we, we go out early in the morning and we don't come back to like midnight
Peter Kersting: so what it is all about doing stuff wheb you're on a trip? It's not necessarily about relaxing.
Mari Escobar: Yeah. I mean, sometimes you gotta have those, but no, it's all about exploring, getting out, especially in Puerto Rico, we don't get to walk that much. So mostly when we go to Europe, we're like, okay, let's just walk. We're like getting out the door and just walking around, getting on the subway, exploring, trying the local food, local restaurants, that sort of thing.
Peter Kersting: What were your parents like when they were traveling with you or were you guys planning things out ahead of time? So you knew what you wanted to do or was it a little more spontaneous?
Mari Escobar: A little bit of both. I mean, when I was growing up, obviously I was dubbed the travel agent. So my father would get someone to buy the tickets and all that stuff. But yeah, I guess we had an idea, but never like planned like minute by minute. Sure. Like we have the main attractions and oh, today we're doing this and this, but not like by the hour and say like, oh, we like this place better. So we'll stay here for a little longer and then we can do the other still the other thing after nothing like super rushed, they're not paranoid. Yeah. They're very relaxed. I can just like me so, you know, we just go with the flow, nothing. Like they don't get mad easily, so yeah,
Peter Kersting: Yeah.
Mari Escobar: Well now they're, they're older obviously, but they're not like, okay, we have to be in there for like five hours right before or anything like that. So, and now that I get to plan all the trips my father's just like you do everything. Just tell me how much it is. Like you buy the tickets. I'm like, okay, can we go this states like this, does this work for you? That's it. I do the rest.
Peter Kersting: That's awesome.
Mari Escobar: I look for the areas, but they're like, yeah, now they leave it up to me. And then last year went on our last trip. We did a road trip through, through Spain and my father's like, oh my God, you're amazing. You should, you know, people should pay you to do this. just tell them the days. And you'll take care of everything, like from getting the Ubers each day to planning, you know, the main attractions to the, to the, the flights and kind of like the leisure schedule. I love that. I'm like I could be a travel agent too.
Peter Kersting: well, you, you answered my next question already. I was gonna say, you know, how much do you enjoy the, the prep part? That sounds like that's a pretty big part of it for you. You kind of like getting excited about the trip before it happens.
Mari Escobar: I do, but I'm not too big into research. Like , I'm pretty lazy when it comes to that. I like right now I haven't done any research of where I'm going. Like most places I've been to, but like sure. There's one in get there that I've never been. I, I probably go at the airport. I'll be like, okay, what, what should I do? Yeah. I cook a hotel. I have a general idea of the schedule, but not like, yeah, I, I can get very lazy. I, but I, I do like booking for flights. I'm okay. Let me see. And like, yeah, I'm one of those that at the office, like, I'm like, okay, how are the flights?
Peter Kersting: I'm kind of the same way. I don't know if I'm trying to remember what I'd be. Okay. So I asked Tanner this question, like I said before, early in the podcast, the three of us met in Vietnam. And the three of us traveled together for a little bit of time. And then each of you individually, I spent some time with traveling, but I, I, this, the question I asked Tanner was what was your first impression of meeting each other? And and I would love to hear your thoughts, your first impressions of meeting both of us, or just in general, that trip,
Mari Escobar: You guys were ready together at the hostel. Oh. And we were waiting for a tour, right. That's right. I'm like, well, you know, there's, that's right. Like two Americans, they seen these city talk to. Yeah, yeah. I say more than that, you seem cool, like approachable. And we were doing the same thing, so sure. I was trying to make friends cause everybody does in a host. So
Peter Kersting: no you're right. I that's one thing I like about the host experience. It's kind of like it's easy to figure out, okay, who's going out and doing stuff. And if you're not as big of a planner and you like to be more spontaneous, it's easier to be like all, what are you guys doing? Oh, that doesn't sound very fun. Lemme talk to these guys over here. You know,
Mari Escobar: I always try to get like the what's that like a free walking tour? I think something along those lines.
Mari Escobar: I try to get those out of the way when I first get to a place and get an idea of what's what's there. And then whatever, I like, I can go back to it later and like spend some more time, but you know, get a little bit of the history, see where I am standing.
Peter Kersting: Sure. Well, and especially nowadays, it's pretty easy to just not be that planned out because you can always look it up. Even if you're in Southeast Asia, you can use the internet. So it's kind of easy to just be like, ah, what did everybody else wanna do here? You know, look at best things to do and blah, blah, blah. So,
Mari Escobar: And now with COVID, it's kind of even better not to plan too much cuz it can change in a heartbeat.
Peter Kersting: Yeah. That's a really good point. And I think we're gonna touch on that a little bit more later. Yeah. One thing I'd love to do in part three is kind of share some tips for people who are looking to do more solo travel themselves. So this, you know, it's interesting to hear how different people go about planning for planning, for travel and what they enjoy about travel. But I, I wanna, I wanna step back a little bit and talk a little bit more about your personal and professional background for a second. Mm-Hmm so we got an idea of what it was like for you, your family growing up loved to travel a lot. You moved to the us for college. Was that the first time
Mari Escobar: Mm-Hmm for school in Boston.
Peter Kersting: So, so tell me about what that was like for you because that's a pretty big culture shift moving somewhere, not just visiting, but moving. Did you feel prepared for that or what was hard about it? I'm
Mari Escobar: Sort of it, you know, when you like traveling, it's like, it's kind of like another trip and then it's college. So it's fun. And then I already like a lot of people from my school, it, I went to Boston in Benley university. So I, from my school, they push you kinda like to go to school in the us. So I already knew some people there also like in Boston. So, you know, I was moving into the fun sure. Getting out of Puerto Rico, exciting like meeting new people, that sort of thing. So it, it was fun. It's not like, I wouldn't say exactly culture shock. Maybe it was later as I started meeting more international people. Sure. Cause in Puerto Rico, you didn't get that. I mean, you get a few like S but it's not that Politan or
Peter Kersting: That was kind of one of your first times meeting international friends was one of the first times you really felt some of those culture shocks. Is that fair to say? Yeah,
Mari Escobar: My father in Puerto Rico, my, I kind of became also, I came cuz in Puerto Rico he had like a little of like Indian friends. Like there's not that many Indians in Puerto Rico
Peter Kersting: But yeah, I wouldn't imagine anyway.
Mari Escobar: Yeah. Our neighbors are Indians and so like, you know, they have their own crew and then they would always invite us to their like new leaf party, stuff like that. And I would love the food there. I always got so excited, especially cuz I'm a vegetarian. So, you know, we don't have that many options. Like there's no Indian restaurants in Puerto Rico, maybe one. Yeah. So that sort of thing I really enjoyed. And then when I got to school, I got to make my own Indian friends. So I was like, oh, you know, I I'm following my father's footsteps in that, in that regard.
Peter Kersting: Yeah. Do you think that your family's love for travel is really why you love it so much? Like that experience was so positive for you? Is that why, or it's kinda something of your own at this point?
Mari Escobar: That, and then also as I started meeting more people in college, like I would say, I thought I always traveled like in high school, but my group of friends, I was one of the ones that traveled the most like with my family mostly or even like trips that they did in school for like on our society. I'm like I would ask my father like, can I go it's in Disney? I'm like, yeah, sure. Go so I've been spoiled in sense too. I cannot complain. Sure. But then yeah, I thought I traveled, but then I, you meet these people that they go on like weekend trips all the time or they're like, I have roommates from like Indonesia. I had never taken a flight longer than seven hours to Europe. Sure. And they do what like 14, 30 hours, 48 hours nonstop, total 30 hours. Like yeah, they do it. Like, it's nothing. I'm like, whoa, what is that like? Is that even possible? So that definitely like opened up my eyes. And then I was like, where is Indonesia? I never, I never cared about like, I didn't know anyone, you hear it on the news. It's like, you know, it's so far away. But when you, you have close contact with these people and it's like, Hmm, maybe I'll start paying attention. And that definitely opened up my eyes to global traveling besides Europe and the us
Peter Kersting: sure, sure. I mean, it's also funny too, cuz I remember the first time I went to Europe, I was thinking like, not that it's exotic, but like it's different. Right? Mm-hmm so you go like, wow, this is exciting. Cause this is so different. But then when you go somewhere truly different from the us or wherever you're from, you're like, oh wow, this is really this, that wasn't exactly the same. You know? That's like, that's pretty similar
Mari Escobar: To, yeah. That's closer to,
Peter Kersting: What's a lot more like what I know compared to this anyway. So I totally get what you mean with Indonesia.
Mari Escobar: My father also had like some friends from Spain, but my mom's like, yeah, you were already traveling when you were in my belly and they would go to like Barcelona a lot. So that for me is like, you know, I, that, I think that's why also I love Barcelona cuz like they going there all my life and then, and we, we knew the local. So that also gives you a different perspective, not just, you know, the touristy I'm bla and all that stuff.
Peter Kersting: so I wanna talk a little bit about your college experience more though. So you got your master's in science, in taxation from Bentley University. That's the one in Boston, correct?
Mari Escobar: Yeah. I also did my undergrad there.
Peter Kersting: Why, why masters in taxation?
Mari Escobar: I, because I didn't wanna start working yet.
Peter Kersting:
Mari Escobar: It was my excuse to keep studying and then also to become a CPA. You need like certain credits. So with just the undergrad, you couldn't get it. So with the, they had like a five-year program in my school. So you would do like one more year after undergrad and then you would get all the credits and you'd get another title too.
Peter Kersting: It sounds like CPA was what you already had in mind then. Why, why CPA? Was your dad a CPA or
Mari Escobar: No, my father's a CFA. So more like a financial advisor and then I won the accounting route. Okay. But you know, it's, it's a business school, so they're pushing you to one of those, you know, if you wanna succeed in the field, you need to get that.
Peter Kersting: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Peter Kersting: I'm gonna say this…
Mari Escobar: Little nerd.
Peter Kersting: I'm gonna say this and please don't take it the wrong way. But when I just talking to you, I would never guess like mathematics and science and taxes and stuff.
Mari Escobar: I'm not the typical accountant.
Mari Escobar: [I'm surprised those] would be the classes that you would wanna take. You know, it's just kind of funny, but it's also, what's great about getting to know people better,
Mari Escobar: But I've always liked numbers. Somehow. My dream was to be a cashier.
Peter Kersting: at like what? Six years old.
Mari Escobar: Yeah, that was, that was like my favorite toy. The cash register. Oh my God. Soy one. That's so good. Now, you know, when you have like the scans, like whatever the yeah. At the store that you can do self-checkout. I love that. I'm like, here's my dream come true.
Peter Kersting: Were you guessing how much it's gonna cost at the end or?
Mari Escobar: No, I just like the scanning
Peter Kersting: I love that. I love that.
Mari Escobar: Yeah. And so I had like, you know, my cash register when I was growing up and then I would get like, I don't know that that probably doesn't exist anymore, but my father would have like some slips, those that have like three copies with a carbon copy on the back. Yeah. So I would always like take those from his and fill them out and you know, play around with my friends, with those,
Peter Kersting: Your dad was probably thinking, wow, this is pretty easy. I didn't have to buy any toys.
Mari Escobar: Yeah. So you could tell, I mean, I was inclined for something around, I I sure I didn't know exactly what I was going to do, but I know, I knew I didn't want science or anything like that. So, you know, business was the right choice.
Peter Kersting: sure. But at the time of going to masters, you have to better idea about what you're getting into. Right. So what is it about that type of job looking back and in hindsight that you enjoy, cause you're still working in finance.
Mari Escobar: Yeah. But there's so many accountants who hate their job so I got to one of those. Yeah. I mean, I was good at it. It's now like, oh my God, I'm dying to do numbers, but I was good at it. I, I, you could say I enjoyed, I obviously I hated the accounting class, but it's stuff that I could do. it was, it was a good, there's always like a, a lot of jobs, no matter what.
Peter Kersting: So it's a little bit more of like, let's say a practical decision, you know? So like here's the way I put it. Some people try to get a job that they love because they're gonna be working a lot and they wanna be doing something that they love when they're working and that's a valid way to do it. That's kind of what, the way that I see it. Other people, maybe the way that they look at it is I'm going to do something that allows me to do what I love, helps me pay for it or gives me the flexibility to do that. Which of those would you say you fall into, if you had to choose one or the two,
Mari Escobar: Maybe a mix it's like, I don't mind doing it and I'm good at it. yeah. But right now, like I love my job. I like I've had like my first job, I, there was a point I'm like, I hate it. Like, no, I don't wanna, I don't wanna do it anymore because it's it's numbers, but there's a level of doing numbers, crunching numbers when it's more intense than just doing like an overview or, you know, it's like getting a more, like, I'd say like macro
Peter Kersting: . Yeah.
Mari Escobar: Yeah. So that makes a difference. Like right now I'm doing more finance than accounting. So, and I like it better than just doing the accounting and doing the taxes. But at that point I chose taxes more say like audit is the usual route. Sure. And you pro Tanner pro I think also mentioned this yeah. He didn't go with audit. I did. He was either either or I, I think he went like some other way. But I always hated not just getting too technical, but I always hated journal entry. So I'm like, yeah, I prefer taxes then, then audit. And then I was like, oh, everybody's like, yeah, you should do law school because law school go with the taxes. But no, I hate reading. I hate arguing. So I always know that, oh yeah, they're waiting.
Peter Kersting: I was wondering if this was gonna come up. Okay. So this is something we do not have in common. When we first met, I remember this being such a barrier. I was like, you're like, I can't stand books. Like I hate books with a passion. And I was just like, oh, I
Mari Escobar: Like books, books, but it's not, I don't spend too much time with them.
Peter Kersting: Hey yeah, you don't, you got a bookshelf behind me, you know, but
Mari Escobar: I have some books here
Peter Kersting: I would love to see that. I would love to see that.
Mari Escobar: I knew… It's just like a little box.
Peter Kersting: It it's a one box in your house that still hasn't been unpacked.
Mari Escobar: No, no. It's like a basket. Not like a, it's not like an
Peter Kersting: I'm just teasing actually, when we did the pre-interview for this, this is a little bit behind the scenes, I guess, but we were still unpacking your boxes. That's how long it's been since we talked about that. That's so funny.
Mari Escobar: Yeah. There's stuff on the walls now.
Peter Kersting: Well, yeah, no, looks great. It, I you, you, you enjoy the apartment. It sounds like. Yeah. It's a
Mari Escobar: Good spot. Yeah. This one, I like a lot better. Mm-Hmm
Peter Kersting: well, so one of the other, one of the other things that I think is kind of funny, all the similarities between you and Tanner, right? Cause you didn't know each other before you met each other at Vietnam and you really didn't talk that much about it. At least that I was aware. Maybe just went over my head about how you're both accountants, but you both worked for one of the big four accounting firms. Mm-Hmm which I'm APLE. I had no idea. What about what the big four was before I started talking to Tanner. All I know now is that it's like, you know, they do accounting for a lot of people and there's a lot of money involved and to get a job working for them is, is kind of a big deal. As far as your career trajectory.
Mari Escobar: It sets you up. It sets you up. Like once you have that on your resume, you're good to go. Everybody's gonna look for you. So that's why you go through it. You become a slave for them. but I mean, I always knew I was not gonna do that for my, my entire life. Sure. You know, they usually say you do five years and then you're good to go. Yeah. So that's basically what I did it's it was rough. The first year was fun and games. But after that it was like,
Peter Kersting: Yeah, yeah, here . Well, so I, I think we're gonna talk about two other things before we wrap up this episode. But first before I talk about the second thing sorry, I'm being a little bit rambly here, but tell me about your experience working for Ernst & Young because that, as you said, it kind of sets your trajectory for what's coming next, but was that your first job out of college? And so tell me a little bit about, you can go wherever you want with this. Tell me a little bit about Ernst & Young and then tell me about your first trip after Ernst & Young.
Mari Escobar: Yeah. Yeah. That was my first real job out, out of college. I had only won internship with them, but in Puerto Rico, like the summer before I try, that's another thing, my parents never pushed me to do like an internship or get like a summer job fairly well, thank God. I didn't really have to do it. So we would always travel and then my mom's like, yeah, no, let's go travel. So that was our summer thing. And so, yeah once I graduated well actually I had my, I asked for the, the, so I graduated in 2007, no, I mean, oh eight after the master's, but I wanted to get the CPA out of the way before working. So I asked for the year off in between like starting to work and they were able to, to, to honor that cuz then there's also the recession in, oh wait, that little people like lost their offers. Sure. So at least I didn't go through that. So I had my job offer.
Peter Kersting: They gave you a job offer and then the recession happened. We still wanna keep you.
Mari Escobar: Yeah. But I know a lot of people who got similar or not even a year in between who got who, I mean their offers were like they fell through with the recess. But no thank God like Mac, like mine like held up. So I took the year off after graduating, I went back home did the CTA within that year and then I moved to New York in oh nine. So that was in no I'm, I'm moving to New York, you know, this super cool job. My first job is with EY, like super good company. I was like super excited. And then I knew some people, a lot of people from Boston moved to New York. So, you know, I had, I was not completely like alone. I had some friends that were already there before I was, so it was, and you know, it's New York city.
Mari Escobar: So it was like super exciting. Yeah. Yeah. And the first year it was amazing. Like, and then also this, this kinds of company, they're like, it's like a class that starts at the same time. Like in the summer there's like 50 people that start, you get the training and well, since it was new, it was New York. Like people who come to New York office for training, we, we didn't have to go anywhere. So you know, you meet people from other offices and that's part of like the, the fun part. Everybody's just starting exciting. And then the work was not that bad. It was second year that it, it started getting like,
Peter Kersting: Is it just the hours starting to like pile on top of you? Or
Mari Escobar: Yeah, the first year I only worked, I, I remember everything I only worked till midnight, like once and that was it. And then you had like all these crazy parties and like trainings, like they would also send us to Chicago at some point. And so, you know, it's, there's a lot, a lot of perks, but then the second year, at least my division, we got like huge client and that changed everything so there was a lot more work and then the people is the same. It doesn't matter. Yeah. yeah. Yeah. And things changed and it was like super constant, like working till like midnight for like work, leaving work at 3:00 PM. Yeah. Or
Peter Kersting: Like, you know, just
Mari Escobar: Eight was like, oh my God, that's so early. you would always eat in the office cause yeah, I never cooked. I'm like, I was always in the office. They would pay for our food. So, yeah.
Mari Escobar: Sorry, you didn't really like have to leave or do anything. You didn't have time to do anything after. And then the, the few breaks that you had, you're like I'm in New York. So people don't have big apartments who host like dinners or anything. right. So you would go out and like eat with friends. So yeah. And even then I make my time to like, as you said, like prioritize vacation which over there is like with the workaholic mentality is not, I think that they enjoy, like, they always had a hard time approving it for like one more, more than a week. I'm like, just let me go.
Peter Kersting: Was, was that the biggest re have so many questions that are popping into my head about this because, because it's interesting to see for those of you haven't listened to Tanner come be's episodes, check 'em out on the podcast, but there's some interesting correlations here. I wanna get into a little bit without spending too much time on on the world of accounting. But the first is, is that why you ultimately left EY Ernst & Young because you couldn't get enough travel time. Yeah. Huh? Was it because you couldn't get enough travel time?
Mari Escobar: I mean, they always gave it to me, but it was it was kind of like a challenge. I think I was, I feel like that happens everywhere. Not just EY I'm I'm the one always using all my vacation days. Yeah. Most people like don't even care. They don't keep track of their days, stuff like that. But yeah, it's like too much work. Like you don't, you would be working holidays, weekends, so right. It's like, I knew that wasn't for me, I like doing other stuff outside of work
Peter Kersting: but wasn't that a wasn't that probably a pretty hard decision. I have to imagine. Cuz you make good money as a CPA for one of the big four. I'm sure you do, right? Yeah.
Mari Escobar: But by the amount, like, by how much you were like, they would always say this, like you, you probably were making like minimum wage.
Peter Kersting: just cause still
Mari Escobar: The amount of hours. Yeah. Yeah. And the thing is like, they know your salary, so there's nothing right. And so it's like, oh, you're gonna like Sue them. It's not, you're not the only one. right. They do this, but they know, you know their name on your, on your resume. It's like it's inable.
Peter Kersting: So in a sense too, deciding to leave after two years,
Mari Escobar: I two years in two and a half years in New York and I switched to Puerto Rico. Okay. It was a, but also with them. Interesting. And that that's, after that I left, it was a little better in Puerto Rico. The, the hours were not us. Yeah. Crazy. It was never like 40 hour week. But
Peter Kersting: So
Mari Escobar: It was still pretty rough.
Peter Kersting: Yeah. It sounds like it just, it's a recipe for burnout for a lot of people.
Mari Escobar: Yeah. Yeah. That's why the turnover there is crazy. Yeah. And then when you would talk to people in other like states or around the world, like New York is always the hardest one so you get fun and games during the city. Like it was in times the office, I think they moved on, but it was right in the middle of times square, which sometimes you're like, okay, I don't wanna go to times square, but other times, you know, it had its perks. But it's they work the New York mentality is like different from anywhere else.
Peter Kersting: sure, sure, sure. The other thing that pops to mind, I'd be curious to hear what you think about is if you spend time listening to Tanner talk, tell the dude I would, the way I would describe it is frugal. And he's very good about knowing how to save his money and spend it the way he wants to spend it. And he's okay with Matt spending money on certain things. One of the things he said in his interview was that you'd be surprised how bad some accountants are at being good with their money.
Mari Escobar: So yes, I, I hear that.
Peter Kersting: How are you with your money or how would you self-assess
Mari Escobar: I'm pretty thrifty too. Yeah. People. Yeah. My friends know
Mari Escobar: But there, I mean I do spend my money. I spend it on traveling. Sure. I don't. I do go out. Yes. Yeah. But I don't spend, I don't buy like a 1000 purse or anything like that. I spend that on a ticket. Yeah. I'd rather do that. That than those kinds of things actually from New York is when I saved the most. Yeah. Maybe it doesn't make much sense, but that's what, that's what allowed me kind of goes with what he was saying, like, you know, safe to do whatever you want whenever. Sure. And that's why I was able to take like my fun employment gap months or almost
Peter Kersting: Fun employment
Mari Escobar: Because of what I love that one from what I saved from, from New York also you're making, you know, a lot money, good money, but you're working so much. You can't, you don't have the time to spend it all.
Peter Kersting: I was just about to say that. Cause I was talking to a friend who's a lawyer the other day and she's like, yeah, I'm saving money, but not because necessarily I'm good with my money cuz I don't have time to spend it.
Mari Escobar: Exactly.
Peter Kersting: Yeah. And maybe that's good for a period of time. You need to save up. But
Mari Escobar: When the PT season came around, I was like, okay, it's good. I'm gonna save money
Peter Kersting: But it's not sustainable. So I think we should wrap up this episode with a story of your first big trip afterErnst & Young, when you decided to leave.
Mari Escobar: That was actually my first solo trip around Europe and it was definitely like changing. Originally I was gonna do just a month in Paris because in one of my travels, when my, my family, actually one of the one that I didn't wanna go, I was like, F why are we going to Paris? There's nothing there. Like super uninterested. And Mike fell in love with it. I'm like, I'm moving here. So after that I always kept that in my mind. And I decided, okay, I'm like, I'm gonna go for a month and you know, take French just to do something besides traveling. And then it ended up being like almost three months. I kept changing my ticket and then I was like, so I, I did Paris on my own. And then I was visiting people where I had people, like my brother was in Munich at the time.
Mari Escobar: So I went to visit him. I did like Octoberfest. I also have friends that came to meet me at some points and then other friends that I was visiting there and then parts of it. I was completely on my own. And that's when I was like, oh my God, this is amazing. Like I met so many people. That's when I started doing the hostels and yeah, I know, I know I changed after that trip. Like I had to talk to people like, I didn't know. I was like, I thought I was shy before that trip after I was like, I can talk to anyone who sends next to me because I have no option. Otherwise I wouldn't talk to anyone for like three months.
Peter Kersting: right. I love it. Mari. Thanks for being on the show. We're gonna take a quick break here. Don't go away next week on Alone with Peter, we're gonna be talking about Mari's solo travel experience and how she maximizes work to pursue travel.
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40 Work Smarter, Be Happier, Live Better – Actionable Advice from John’s Crazy Socks
20 jun 2022· Alone With Peter
Welcome back to part three of our interview with John and Mark Cronin of John's Crazy Socks. In part three, we're getting actionable and practical tips so that you can aspire to take a similar leap of faith to these two sock tycoons. We're gonna get a lot of good advice in this episode. So I hope you stay tuned. And if you are enjoying Alone Peter, in these interviews, please rate, review and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts because this show cannot exist without your support.
Let's dive in with John and Mark Cronin of John's Crazy Socks
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39 Creating a platform for positive change... with John's Crazy Socks
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40 Work Smarter, Be Happier, Live Better - Actionable Advice from John's Crazy Socks
Peter Kersting: Welcome to Alone with Peter. I'm your host. And on this podcast, you're going to hear interviews with entrepreneurs, artists, digital nomads, and people seeking personal growth. We'll dive deep into what set them on their journey, where they are now and how their story can impact you, including any helpful insights. If you aspire to take a similar leap of faith, no matter where you are on the journey. Thank you for spending some quality time Alone. With Peter.
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Peter Kersting: Welcome back to part three of our interview with John and Mark Cronin of John's Crazy Socks in part three, we're getting actionable and practical tips and advice. If you aspire to take a similar leap of faith to these two sock tycoons, we're gonna get a lot of good advice in this episode. So I hope you stay tuned. And if you are enjoying Alone Peter, in these interviews, please rate, review and subscribe wherever you receive podcast. And don't forget to check out the full transcript links to content and everything else on Peterkersting.com/podcast/40 for this episode. All right, let's dive in with John and Mark Cronin
Peter Kersting: John and Mark. I'm gonna kind of hit you with a couple different things that I would like to learn as an entrepreneur. And I think other people maybe would like to learn from your experience. So if we can speak to that, I would love to start with Mark. You were mentioning you have very checkered past, so can you tell me about that? You know, kind of give us the overview of your CV, cuz it is a very interesting CV and how all those different things helped you become the businessman you are today with John's Crazy Socks.
Mark Cronin: Sure. so let's start with the framework maybe. And remember I'm old. So there's lots of years in there when I got out of college in 1980, I taught school for two years. There are anecdotes about, you know, pure happenstance that I wound up doing that I taught at a Catholic grammar school in New York city and then a Catholic high school. I left there, I went to Portland, Oregon to help a friend open a nonprofit grocery store in the Burnside district, which used to be like the Bowery in Manhattan when the Bowery was the Bowery and the Burnside was the Burnside came back and enrolled in a doctoral program for literature spent a year or so in there wound up leaving there, working for a Congressman. And then I went off to the Kennedy school of government at Harvard, got out of there, worked for the city of New York in the Medicaid program, wound up running the Medicaid health services program did that for several years left to write a novel and some short stories went back into healthcare consulting and then led a series of healthcare startups and consulting firms did that for quite a number of years.
Mark Cronin: But along the way, I'm trying to remember in there, somewhere in there left and started a, a software software company called new Gutenberg software. We made baseball for windows 94, got rave reviews, lost every penny we had. We so I did that into the two thousands organized some political campaigns then helped my wife who at a law firm. And I took over the Marketing for that and, and some of the man day to day management and you know, for complicated reasons that shut down and then here we are running the SOC business. Wow. So people will say, you know, what would tell us about your background? Well, you know, I'd never worked in retail, had never run wholesale, but processing claims in healthcare was quite similar to me to processing orders coming in, but you, you learn it every step of the way.
Mark Cronin: So I mean, here's an example when I was when I was young, when I got right outta high school and, and through college, I did a lot of hit tracking different day and age. So I hitch cross country three times. I hitchhike around Europe you know, carpool over the side of the road you run to get in that car. And the first thing you have to do is you gotta sh you gotta try to size up that driver because you gotta, how you gonna get along. And that ride might be 10 minutes or 10 hours. And you are the entertainment. So you do that a few hundred times and you learn an awful lot. You, so when I was doing that, I wasn't going off saying, well, I'm going on a learning experience now it's just a great adventure, but look what you go and learn. I've been fortunate over the years to work for some really great people. So you get to learn that and work with some really great folks. You learn it all the time.
Peter Kersting: Well, if I could interrupt really quickly, first of all, I'm, I'm smiling because I actually, you're making me think of my own hitchhiking experience. I hitchhiked from the Netherlands to Paris during the 2016 presidential election. And it's one of the craziest memories I have and it's absolutely you're right. Some people picked me up. So I, I had this whole, I had this whole thing where I was like, all right, well, I'm an American in the Netherlands traveling to Paris with a German who's like super tall and really eccentric. How can I get people to pick me up? So I decided to make a sign that said Hillary question, Mark Trump question, Mark Paris exclamation point. And you could not, you could imagine the kinds of responses I got to that sign, or, you know, I was, I just owned the American thing and it was such a fun experience.
Mark Cronin: Signs were important. And what I found was the best sign just said home to mom. , ,
Peter Kersting: That's a good one.
Mark Cronin: But you know, the people you meet, you know, I immediately comes to mind of, of, I was hit from Paris heading in a general direction of Amsterdam. And I got picked up by these guys who said, don't go to Amsterdam first, come with us to Den Haag, come to Den Haag. So I went and spent three days with them and what a great time that was, you know, it's until the one guy's wife came storming in late at night, what the hell's going on here, and there's this party going on,
Peter Kersting: This is a travel podcast in a lot of ways, too. A lot of the people I've had on the podcast are people who are digital nomads is the term that's used now. People who can live in all sorts of different places. So I love that kind of story. And, you know, just picking apart what your, your, your background as a teacher, I'm sure that's impacted the way that you've trained people. And you, we talked about in some of the previous episodes, how you find the right role for someone being a teacher, certainly helped you in that
Mark Cronin: Teaching is very important. And I've done a lot of coaching. I coached some schools, but I also coached youth sport. And yeah, I think a job of a manager and, and to a degree, a leader in an organization, there's always a lot of teaching going on. Mm
Peter Kersting: John was, was your dad kind of like a teacher for you growing up?
John Cronin: Yes. Yes. I, I keep on learning.
Mark Cronin: I'm still trying to teach you, right? Yeah. He is. John asked me questions and I'm breaking it down all along. You asked something this morning and I was walking through, I forget what that was. I don't know. You asked a lot of questions, which is a good thing. Right, right. And I'm always answering your questions.
John Cronin: Right. He always believes in me.
Mark Cronin: I do believe in you.
Peter Kersting: I love that. I love that. You're always willing to ask questions too. That's another big thing. But, but also your background, you know, in, in the Marketing that you said you did for your wife's law firm, I'm sure that's coming to play for political campaigning your time in Congress. I can't imagine that didn't affect your ability to actually speak when you were given that platform, the story you told us before being able to speak at Congress, being a congressional aid in the past.
Mark Cronin: Yes. Then, the speaking you know, John here has never been phased, but, you know, I, I mean, I'll tell you one time in, when I was in graduate school. So this would've been 86, 85. We organized the the regular administration was going to severely cut student aid in student loans. So I'm up in Massachusetts, we ordered a, we organized a statewide campaign letter-writing campaign to protest. And, you know, did one of those conferences where we're dumping the letters in front of of then-Senator Kerry. And we had a rally on the Boston common. And, you know, I don't know, few hundred people showed up, but let's say there were tens of thousands. Now a few hundred people show up. And I was one of the speakers and I saw a film clip of this, and I'm up there on this podium. I got a rolled-up newspaper and I am living my dream of being like a Baptist minister. I am just going on and on and on. But what you don't see is I was so nervous that my right leg was shaking uncontrollably. And as a guy who didn't really know me, who's sitting on the stage behind me who got up to come and grab me, cuz he had no idea how I was still standing.
Peter Kersting: you come from such a checker background. And I wonder if looking back at it, you can say this, this, this, and this is what's helped me be successful and what I'm doing right now, not that it's gonna be all-encompassing, but some things that you pick out, I learned this,
Mark Cronin: I can point to a lot learning how to write and being able to communicate is critically important. One thing which I realize that I go back to school, learning how to read poetry has been critically important and they'll call it close, doing a close reading, and this will sound may be overly simplistic. But if you're going to read a document, the first thing you have to do is see what the words on the page are actually saying. So this has fueled me as I've worked in, you know, with regulations and with contracts, you have to see what the word say. And so many people don't do that. They gloss over. They immediately start summarizing without seeing what it actually says on the page that matters a lot. You, you get to see different forms of leadership and that all can feed your own particular style. So that's important learning how to be organized. Well, I got that from two particular bosses because I don't think that comes naturally to you, how to, you know, so I think you pick up stuff yeah. All the way, but you have to be open to it. You gotta be willing to have thing to internalize things.
Peter Kersting: Yeah. It makes me think of you know, even what, what you were just saying to, to John about like, that's a good thing that you're asking questions sometimes. You know,, I told you a little bit about my background in teaching both English as a foreign language, but also I taught sixth grade ELA for a little while as well. And teaching people how to think is honestly the biggest thing and teaching people how to ask questions is really important. And I even just thinking about what you're saying about learning, how to read poetry, something that's really helped me in my voiceover business is you have to see the image from the text before you ever read it. And that does a couple different things. One, it informs the way that you narrate, if you're doing a book for example, but it also forces you to be engaged enough with the text that you can actually visualize.
Peter Kersting: And that gives people the amount of time that they would need. Hopefully, while listening to you read also do the same thing. Cause if you're listening to an audiobook or reading a book yourself, the intent should be to understand and engage with the text actively rather than to, just to like curse over it. You know, we're talking about utilizing your previous experience basically to leverage success. You, told me an interesting anecdote between episodes about speaking with somebody. If I'm remembering correctly, didn't work for Under Armour, but knew someone who worked in arm under Armour. And it seemed like a really good example of this, this phrase, I'll call standing on the shoulders of giants. I'm borrowing it from Jon Acuff, but something he says in, in that book Start that I was just telling about earlier is if you wanna get good at something, if you wanna mask or something, one of the ways you can accelerate that process is by standing on the shoulders of giants. And, and it seems to me, something you've become really good at is asking questions from people who know how to do something. You don't know how to do. So perhaps you could share that anecdote from yesterday or another one that you feel like really helps people drive home that story.
Mark Cronin: Well, I think it starts. And we, I think we mentioned earlier in a conversation about my oldest son coming home one day and saying, you know, once I learned I was an idiot, life became easier because then you're willing to ask questions. Then you're willing to learn. I'm always looking to learn from other people. And a key thing I think to get that help is by signaling that you really mean it. You're not just you're, you're not just asking an ID question. You want to know the answer and you do that by acting on the advice, you know, that's how you show appreciation. And it also ties what it's, it's why you're asking what you're doing it for.
Mark Cronin: You know, here's an easy one of you know, how did we find our strategic partner? I met, we had lots of potential investors come in here and offer deals that, you know, mainly wanted to buy the brand and shut us down. They didn't understand. So, you know, I had to kiss a lot of toes, but we were speaking at a networking event and somebody came up and said, you know, you gotta meet my friend Lewis, my friend Lewis, his family, their manufacture socks. They wound up becoming our strategic partner. So last night I'm, I'm, I'm part of a group called the entrepreneur's organization. Our long island chapter had a learning event last night with a gentleman named Mark Moses, who has been a successful entrepreneur. And he also owns a business. He's the founder of CEO coaching, the author of books that make big happen.
Mark Cronin: He's pretty inspiring, but, but in very tangible ways. So after he spoke we had a brief conversation and some of it was me telling him of what I had learned from him in the past and, and sharing that, yes, we had our quarterly meeting yesterday, man, quarterly management meeting. And we would check in our, our, our measurables and our metrics, the same way that this guy advocates. But I asked him a question about metrics and, you know, look for some advice. And he looks at me and says, ah, I don't really know the answer, but I know somebody who does, and it was the former president of under armor. And they said, let me connect you to him. And so this morning I got an email introduction to Mark Shera, the former president of, because I think if you show a curiosity, a curiosity and appreciation, willing to learn, you're gonna get those introductions. And some of it's based on what are you doing for others? How are you helping for others? And they'll introduce you to people.
Peter Kersting: Sure. So the fact that John's Crazy Socks is philanthropic in nature. It's a social enterprise you've shown through your actions that you're wanting to give back. That's usually reciprocated. Well, it seems like to me,
Mark Cronin: Yes, yes. People we've been very fortunate and people want to help us, you know, they, they look and say, that's something I want to be part of.
Peter Kersting: And that, that leads me to my next question though, because what something that you have done particularly well, from what I can tell is you, haven't just built a brand. You've built a community. People want to support you, whether it be by buying socks from you or helping you with legislation. I see how often, for example, you're meeting with different lawmakers or lawyers or people in, you know, different parts of civil society or be, you know, the, the previous owner of under armor. So, you know, I wonder if you can help us, if somebody who's starting their own business right now, or maybe in the early phases of their entrepreneurial journey as owner of a business, what are some ways that they can think about brand and, you know, finding that niche, for example, that's something you've done maybe accidentally, but you've definitely laser focused it after stumbling into it. If nothing else
Mark Cronin: Okay. To me to be successful, your brand is not some separate entity or asset. Your brand is a reflection of who you are. It's, it's gotta be in your nature, in your character, in the fiber of what you are. So I think just share my experience here, but also elsewhere, you have to start by knowing what is that purpose? What are you about and what are your clear values? What are you going to live? And they have to be made manifest in everything you do. And when that happens, then your brand becomes this living, breathing entity that people can relate to when they believe it's not, I'll give you an easy kind of way and see if this makes sense. It's not like you can sit around a meeting and decide we're going to commit to customer service. And we're gonna start that next January. And this is what I'll mean. We're gonna tell everybody, we, we are about customer service. Now, if that's what you are really about, then it starts right now and it's everything you are about. And no, you're not doing everything right away. You're gonna just keep learning and committing to it and it gets deeper. And now it's, it's part of the very fiber it's part of the way everybody in the organization thinks and looks at the world. Now you have a brand. Now you have something people can
Peter Kersting: Believe. Yeah. But that sounds like it begins with a necessary element that's perhaps overlooked, which is to understand what your own core values are. There's, there's an author. His name is Dr. Jim lore. Who's a performance coach, but also an author that I first heard him on the Tim Ferris podcast, the Tim Ferris show. And I, I like, I resonated so much with what he had to say that I ended up picking up his book, which is called building a personal credo, I believe. And it's this pretty in depth, you know, like I wanna say it was like 20 week process of going through daily journaling to kind of understand what my core values and virtues are as a person and ultimately how that should be impacting every decision I make, as well as the legacy that I wanna leave behind it's intensely introspective process. And one of the things he mentions in the book is most people are living by a sort of credo, but they haven't necessarily taken the time to consider what it is. So with that concept in mind, I wonder if you have any advice for somebody who's just trying to discover whether it's on a personal level or on a brand level, what their core value should be
Peter Kersting: If you're feeling inspired by this episode of John's Crazy Socks, and you're hoping to get a pair you're in luck, because for a special period of time, we have a promo code. If you enter PETER22 on your checkout, you can get 10% off your next pair of John's Crazy Socks, a great business with a great cause, spreading happiness. And if you've been getting a little joy from listening to Alone with Peter, I ask that you take the time to rate, review and subscribe on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or wherever you get podcast and follow us on Instagram at Alone with Peter, we'll be doing a giveaway with John's Crazy Socks in the next week or two. And I don't want you to miss out on this amazing prize. So follow along and until then, let's get back to our show. I wonder if you have any advice for somebody who's just trying to discover whether it's on a personal level or on a brand level, what their core values should be.
Mark Cronin: Well, you have to decide what your core values are, but part of it is I, I, I think not only do you have to believe, you have to be able articulate. And one way that happens is you just keep repeating it. You keep telling the story you keep talking about it and that will help you understand more exactly what matters and hone that down.
Peter Kersting: It's like the five pillars of, of John's Crazy Socks we talked about earlier.
Mark Cronin: Yeah. You have to know what they are and you have to keep telling the story. I mean, I, I think I mentioned it earlier yesterday, I was talking to a friend and his partner that wanna open these juice bars at higher ex-cons and they have these operational plans, financial plans. And that was part of it of you guys gotta be really clear. What are you about, what is that mission? What is that purpose? And you, I don't think that's something you can sit down and write, right? I think you gotta start there and you have to keep telling it. I mean, part of, part of what I think effective leaders do, they don't just say something once, you know, you do it all the time and you have to keep reminding of people of that. But when you do that, then it becomes manifest in everything you do, but you have to hold that criteria to it. And here's one way, you'll know if you're willing to sacrifice money for it
Peter Kersting: Or time, which is another currency, right? You gotta put the time into the business as well, or the, you know, value, cuz it, like you said, it doesn't happen overnight. Understanding where you come from, what you're trying to do requires a lot of thought,
Mark Cronin: Right? But at the same time, that's what helps make you resilient. Give you the example along comes this pandemic who plans for a pandemic and it was awful for our business. It cause those hundreds of thousands of dollars in the spring of 2020. And if all we did was sell socks, we'd be in real trouble, but that's not all we did. Right. We knew what our mission was. We knew what our character and our values were about. So what did we do? Well, the first thing is you gotta make sure that you take care of people. You gotta make sure you take care of people in that case, their health, that people will be safe. Remember in 2020, we didn't have a vaccine. What were we gonna do to keep people safe? And then how do we adapt? What, what do you do?
Mark Cronin: So here's an example. We do tours. Well now we're not doing in person tours, but we can move those online. And then it opens possibilities for us. You move them online. And now we've had school groups from around the world, come and take tours of our business. That, but that was important to us because it's part of the mission of showing what's possible. We moved our speaking engagements online. What can we do? How can we adapt? We make socks. What's that gonna do well? So we made healthcare superhero socks, that to say, thank you to the frontline workers. And those have raised over $50,000 for the American nurses association and a local hospital, good Samaritan hospital and their COVID 19 funds. And then you look and say, what opportunities are there and how do we fill this? So what's our mission bill. I spread happiness. How can we spread happiness? How can we, you know, what, what can we do? Well, some things were easy. We should sell mask. So we designed particular type of mask that we sold. But how do you spread happiness? People are, are now isolated or at home. Yeah. So that's when you started your dance party,
John Cronin: Right?
Mark Cronin: So at three o'clock, every Tuesday, John host an online dance party and we started that in the pandemic. How could we spread happiness? Let's have a dance party. How can we reach people? We started doing a Facebook live show, the Spreading Happiness Show, just to be able to connect with people. We'd get 40,000 people watching those videos.
Peter Kersting: Yes. I wanna touch on that really quickly though, too, because you just mentioned the Spreading Happiness Show and I did not realize it started out as a Facebook live, but I'm assuming that iteration is what has transformed into your new podcast, the Spreading Happiness Podcast.
Mark Cronin: Yes. We still do the Facebook live show, but now we've started our own podcast. I, I think half of the people in America are
Peter Kersting: Doing their own podcast. It's hard to differentiate yourself sometimes. Yeah.
Mark Cronin: We've started our own podcast. What's it called?
John Cronin: I spring a harmony podcast with John aMark,
Mark Cronin: It's the springing happiness podcast. And it's just designed to do exactly what it says. We wanna make you feel good. We wanna share a little happiness a half hour each week, but some of this comes back to what are we about? We're not at the end of the day of so store we're about that mission. So the socks become the physical manifestation of the story and the mission. But also it allows us to do other things like creating content down the road. I see us creating a lot more content to go with the physical things. We,
Peter Kersting: On that note, I'd love to hear a little bit about the podcast. I was, I was listening to it a little bit earlier and John, you love to tell jokes, right? And you tell a joke on every podcast.
John Cronin: Yeah. Yeah, I do.
Peter Kersting: Would you be willing to share a joke for the audience of Loma Peter?
John Cronin: I'm sure I'd love to . What lights up a soccer stadium,
Mark Cronin: What lights up a soccer stadium?
John Cronin: A soccer match.
Mark Cronin: A soccer match
John Cronin: Why did a tree go to the dentist?
Mark Cronin: Why did the tree go to the dentist?
John Cronin: It needed a root canal.
Peter Kersting: A root canal.
Mark Cronin: you can see the level of humor we get here.
John Cronin: Why did the witches team lose the baseball game?
Mark Cronin: Why did the witches team lose the baseball game?
John Cronin: Their bats flew away.
Peter Kersting:
John Cronin: Flew away.
Mark Cronin: Damn back.
Peter Kersting: John,
John Cronin: What is the difference between a teacher a teacher and a train? One says, spit out your gum. And the author
Mark Cronin: Says chew chew.
Peter Kersting: Oh, that's so good.
Mark Cronin: So yeah, the here, here's what we do on our, and, and it will evolve. But what we do is the, the first half of it, or so is just John and I talking, John, bring you up to date, you know, on what he's been up to, what he is been doing what's going on in his life, right? Yes. And that may send us off in some tangents. And then we have some regular features. John tells we, we both tell some jokes. Right? Right. We now give a shout out to other businesses that are owned by people with different abilities. We share an update on our efforts to get in shape and lose weight which is somewhat comical sometimes. Yeah. We share some good news stories. John does a lot of research and he finds that's awesome stories each week. Right. And we get an update on John's love life.
Peter Kersting: Is it going well, John
John Cronin: yes.
Mark Cronin: Yeah. The girlfriend. And you were together this week. We'll see what happens next
Peter Kersting: Week.
Mark Cronin: Lot of drama, lot of drama.
John Cronin: Oh my God.
Mark Cronin: And then we talk about what's coming up.
John Cronin: Right?
Mark Cronin: Right. What's coming up this weekend.
John Cronin: This weekend. I'm really excited. Tomorrow I I'm going a helicopter tour
Mark Cronin: For Christmas. I gave, you know, we're big on experiences. So big gift for John was a helicopter tour around Manhattan. So tomorrow night that's what we we're doing.
Peter Kersting: That's so that's cool. John. I'm jealous. well,
Mark Cronin: But that's the, that that's the podcast. It's I don't know the field, so, but we're getting, I think it's 200 downloads an episode and we've only done a few. The guy we're working with says who's producing. It says that's really good. We'll see, we'll learn. It's just another way of carrying out our mission. We're not selling anything we're just sharing.
John Cronin: Right. But glad that,
Peter Kersting: You know, there's a lot of different directions. We could go with this moving forward. But one thing you, you mentioned to me, you've shown it throughout the whole podcast is that you guys like to have fun. And so I wonder John and Mark, if you can share some ways with me that you make your workforce a place to be, and so that you enjoy working there more and your employees do too.
Mark Cronin: Yeah. Let's be clear. Everybody's got work to do, but it's a place that's relaxed is, you know, no screaming, it's not a stressful place. You know, we walked through earlier, you know what we do to, to make it a great place to work. We make sure that we share what's going on with folks. So everybody gets to share in that we do have a lot of things that happen here. Visitors coming in elected officials coming in newscasts, coming in, like everybody who's worked here has been on TV. Everybody who works here has, you know, has been on other people's videos and things. Some of it is we make videos all the time and everybody's in it. If you're gonna work here, you're gonna be in a video. It's doing communal things like bagel, Tuesday and staff on Friday. We like to do a few things after work.
Mark Cronin: So for example, last week we got two tables and took everybody off to a dinner, a the annual dinner for a local youth agency. So it's a good thing. It's part of the community. We support 'em, but it also meant our folks all got dressed up and came out for a night. Many of them never get to go out or they only go out with their family. So this was a fun night and it was hilarious. We, they had they were raffling off gift baskets and the way they did it, you put a little bag in front of each one and you could buy raffle tickets. And if you wanted to win bag, you know, the first bag, you know, it might have been a sports team thing. You would put a raffle ticket in the bag in front. And if you really wanted it, you might put a lot of raffle tickets in.
Mark Cronin: So we'd buy a sheet of tickets for all of our folks, go and win some prizes. So now they're calling the numbers and we tell everybody, get your numbers out. Listen carefully. First thing I noticed is Mark B. Yeah. He says, oh, I got my number. And he reaches in his jacket. He takes it out. He's got the entire sheet. He hasn't put any tickets in, but he is listening so carefully to see if any of them match the number they call. And then very early on, there are lots of people won prizes, assume they call it his number. He wins. He goes up and he comes back with this huge basket. It was a dance, it was a ballet dance team basket. He gets back to the table. Ando is just sitting there with this in front of him. One of our colleagues looked him, says, do you really like the ballet?
Mark Cronin: He says, no, but assume the basket you just won has a two, two ballet slippers, four hours of ballet lessons, you know, or, or Andrew N or head of fulfillment. They, one of the prizes was a golf set of golf clubs. It's right there. The golf clubs. It's like, you know I don't play golf, but I think I want to take it up. I'm gonna see if I can win the golf clubs. And he does but they're children's golf clubs. And not only that, he's a lefty and of course they're righty clubs. Yeah. So fun Wells. Good. Right, right. And our webmaster, Nick, he won three different trips. I was like, Nick, you're going away for a month. You know, so I don't know you do, you do things we celebrate people's birthdays. We look for excuses to do things. Yeah. Together. We
Peter Kersting: Could talk about all sorts of things when it comes to email Marketing and, and problem solving and stuff like that. But something that you've done particularly well, it seems to me is building a community and in that being a force for change. So I guess if you were to give advice to other entrepreneurs about nos, about how to, to go about doing that, how how to make sure that they're a, a force for change in the way that they're doing their work,
Mark Cronin: This comes back to what's your purpose? What are you doing? I'm not saying everybody's gotta have a great social purpose, but I think that the idea of the social enterprise is very powerful because it can attract people to work for you. It is we're in this age, they're calling the big quit or the big resignation, 4 million of people a month, going back to last August have been quitting their jobs in part. And there's a bunch of different reasons in part, because they're asking, what am I doing? What am I working for? Well, if you have a social enterprise, you can answer that question. And the same thing with the consumer, we talk about conscious capitalism. If you have the cheapest item, you're always gonna have a customer, but it's really hard to have the cheapest item. Otherwise you gotta give them a compelling reason. If you have a social enterprise, you give them more reasons because people are increasingly asking before I give you my money, who are you?
Mark Cronin: What do you do with my money? How do you treat your workers? How do you treat the environment? How do you treat the community? Right? If you're a social enterprise and we answer those and, and what I think, you know, in that sense of what are you doing comes down to a pretty fundamental issue. Milton treatment, the Chicago economist very famously said, you only owe your, a company. Your corporation only owes its responsibility to its shareholders, to its owners, to the shareholders. I beg to differ. I would tell you, and I'm not alone. The business council now agrees with this. You have to serve all your stakeholders, your colleagues, your employees, your customers, your community, your environment, and your owners. And, and here's the thing I think when you do that, your owners are better off because you're more sustainable and it's going to last longer.
Mark Cronin: So now when it comes to working with our customers, we don't reduce them to merely a set of transactions. We're looking to build a connection, a way that's gonna bind us together. And the way we do that, or try to do that is we engage with them. We share our mission with them and therefore they become part of it. So, you know, what are the tangible ways of doing that? I, I think we spoke before. So take your email and email is so important. You're using your email to nurture your relationship, to nurture those connections, respect the fact that that customer has trusted you in given you his or her email. So we never sell it. We never give them away. We're not gonna send you too many emails. In fact, if you stop opening our emails, we'll stop sending it to you. We don't wanna bother you. And then the emails are meant to engage, not to sell. They're meant to build that connection. So for example, every Friday you get an email from John, right? Here's what he's up to. This is what's going on. And so we get a 40 plus percentage open rate cause people enjoy that. Just
Peter Kersting: Absolutely unheard of. It's double what the average is
Mark Cronin: On social media. You know, if you look at our Instagram on Facebook, particularly, you know, Facebook or, or TikTok boy, we're sharing, engaging stories. So we are sharing, you know, we did a post the other day that got a lot of engagement. It was just pictures talking about Thomas, one of our soccer ERs and talking about his journey. People loved it because it's human and they connect to it, but they see that. And now they're part of it. We share the advocacy work. We do not beating people over the head, but letting them know, oh, we met with this legislator, oh, you know, two, two weeks ago. And Mar on world down syndrome day, the New York state legislature honored John. He got a standing ovation on the floor of the New York state assembly. But we share that with our customers, cuz they're part of it. They, we bring them into the experience. It's not us and them. We're doing this together.
Peter Kersting: Well, Mark, I appreciate, I appreciate those tangible pieces of advice you're offering. And it really does all seem to go back to the fact that you have a very defined social enterprise and the fact that you have very defined core values that all lead into your brand and the brand leads to the action and, and everything else that's behind it. I think that's really helpful for people. You know, for example, one of the things I notice other entrepreneurs and even myself often run into is like, what are you supposed to share? You know, if, if you're doing something like an email Marketing list, you need to know how to collect an email list, right? And so what do I have to offer? That's gonna make somebody wanna join my email list and is, does it need to be aligned like this? And you can very quickly, you know, stop because you don't know how to do things, but at least if you have that, that the brand and the core values and everything else sorted out, it's going, it's gonna point to you how to do those things too. So it's a really good reminder. I think for, for someone like myself early on in their, in their entrepreneurial career and, and anyone else who's wherever you are in your journey. So I appreciate that.
Mark Cronin: Well, that's just let me, you know, share one thing. You're not going to do it all at once. It's gonna take some time in the intervening time here, we did an interview with Newsday, the, the long island paper because we now have a we're now selling through Zappos and they wanna write an article about that. And we spoke about our initiatives this year to enter the wholesale Market and growing our B2B business. And he said, well, Mark, you've been around for five years. Why are you, why do you wait till now? Well, we didn't wait until now, but we didn't have every, you know, we weren't able to do it until now. Only now, do we have the manufacturing capability only. Now, do we have the line of socks that we can go and do this? You want to, this is not about waiting until things are perfect, but you, you're not gonna do everything in one day.
Mark Cronin: You're going to evolve. Here are fulfillment capabilities. So we have always driven to do, to do same day delivery. Now we're able to do it. We've gotten now 20 months with 100% on time delivery. There was one day in 20 months where five packages didn't get out on time, but we didn't start there. You know, we had to learn, you had to come up a learning curve on how to run that warehouse and how to you can look. And our warehouse looks physically different because of the way we organize it. And the workflow was physically different. You you day one, we were trying, but you've gotta keep learning. It's gonna take you some time.
Peter Kersting: Yeah. Well, something that you, you guys have done very well is, is just like you said ready, fire aim. And, and that's something I'm definitely trying to be better at. It's ties back into resilience and everything else you're saying. I wanna ask two final questions cause I'm trying to be respectful of your time. And I appreciate how much you've been willing to chat with me. You know, you talked in part two about how you've testified in Congress and you have been speakers on, on the news and in TEDx and, and to corporations like Microsoft and Google, and you're clearly taking the social enterprise into a, into a civil level as well, because you also have that obviously very personal connection, speak to anybody who, who is maybe going to be a future parent of somebody with differing abilities. What would you say to them if they're currently being presented with this, this gift and maybe some people think of it as challenge, what would you say to them?
Mark Cronin: Take a breath love your child. You know, be grateful, be grateful, what you have. You know, everybody's circumstances are different. The world is better today than it was 26 years ago when John was born and it was better then than it was 26 years earlier. And a better world is gonna await, you know, a child born today. It's, don't underestimate your child, treat your child the way you would, others. I mean, promote their independence, expect their achievement. Don't at the same time, don't compare your child to others. And this doesn't matter if it's differing ability or not, everybody's gonna develop at their own pace, told you, John, he couldn't speak for several years now. I've seen this guy stand in front of 22,000 people at Madison square garden and bring them to their feet. Now we would get paid thousands of dollars for a speaking engagement, but he couldn't talk well, if we panicked, then what good was that gonna do?
Mark Cronin: Let him find his way. I dunno, you know, I'll share another, just personal story. Next week we're going to a wedding son of a buddy of mine from high school. And there's a group of us who we have been friends, good friends ever since high school. Unfortunately we've lost a good number of people on the way, but we were at another wedding, I think two years ago, three years ago. And it was a picture of five of, of the five of us together. I was looking at that picture and I was thinking, you know, when we were in high school, nobody was betting on our futures. Nobody knew what was gonna come of us. And you know, many of us were, you know, on shaky ground. And that was true into our twenties. So I'm looking at that group of five and I got thrown outta my high school.
Mark Cronin: They took me back in, I got thrown out for being an entrepreneur. I didn't call it that. Then I ran junior cut day. but you know, so of that five, one is a cardiothoracic surgeon who runs a a network of cancer centers. One is the executive vice president for a national water company. One is a lawyer down in Meadville, Pennsylvania, and has now multiple businesses running. One's the executive vice person, operations of a hospital here on long island. And then there's me. Whatever I, you know, good I am, but I want to take that picture and I want to take it to students in a high school or college and their parents and say, relax, it's gonna be okay. Everybody's gonna, you know, you'll find your way and let people find it at their own pace of that group of five oh cliff.
Mark Cronin: He was gonna, he bounce around a bit before he sort of medical school, Joseph really was, you know, he was playing, playing fast and fun until he got to be about 30. You know, it's love people, support him, let people find their way. Don't hold people back with your lower expectations of folks. If we did that with John, he'd never be doing this and we've seen people, we've seen others and parenting's very humbling. You can't criticize others, but we've seen others. They so shelter their children that the kids can't develop. I mean, here's, here's a way to think about it, right? Don't don't ever be blinded by a person's limitations, be odd by their possibilities. Ah, so I may have Ramed too much there, but
Peter Kersting: No, no thank you for sharing it. It's it's not an easy question and it's something I wanted to ask, but it's, it's also deeply personal question. So I appreciate you being willing to share.
Mark Cronin: We've also been very fortunate. You know, we've got a great family, John received a great education. We approached it, that we were part of a team with his teachers working together. You know, don't be looking for adversaries and you don't have to go it alone. There are other people around that can be there with you. Right,
Peter Kersting: John, is there, is there something you would share with, with anybody who's who's trying to do something like you're doing or any other business owners. Do you have advice for people?
Mark Cronin: You got advice for people.
John Cronin: I, I do follow your heart, follow your dreams, work hard so you can do
Mark Cronin: Sure you can do. Yeah. People frequently ask me, you know, well there's one thing and you know, yes. I would say you have to believe you have to have conviction, but you know, if I was starting a business and I wanted to be successful, maybe the first thing I'd do is kid trying to get drawn to work. It's
Peter Kersting: True. He's he's gone to your magic. He's your magic fairy dust. Isn't he?
Mark Cronin: And it's all the time, right? I mean here, right? Here's here's John at work. So it's January of 2017. We're just starting out. We, at that point we only sold other people's socks and we're finding out nobody buys anything in January because they spent all their money to holidays. That's when we discovered that people wear crazy socks to celebrate world down syndrome day. What day is that?
Mark Cronin: March 21st, March 21st. You would've thought we knew that ahead of time, but we didn't. We're not that smart. So, okay. We go looking for a down syndrome themed sock that we could sound. Nobody made one. What do you do? Well, if nobody made one, what'd you say?
John Cronin: I said, I wanna make one. I want
Mark Cronin: Clear one. I'm sitting there at a computer. I'm doing these searches. I'm trying to find one, John, just like that. Let's just make our own. And you designed it. I did. And we went and made it right. Just find a way. Yeah, you can make this work and we've spoken for a long time. There is not one thing we said that is the proverbial rocket science. It's all common sense. It's all easy. And if we can do it, anybody can do
Peter Kersting: It. Well, I'm certainly feeling inspired to, to try to take some of those lessons and use them myself as well. And some of it's good reminder of what I'm doing, right? And some stuff is, man. Maybe I should really be taking some notes from from John and Mark of John's Crazy Socks. That's a wrap on this interview with John and Mark Cronin of John's Crazy Socks. I hope you've been enjoying these two as much as I have and that you consider helping out their cause. They do so much for the differently abled and they're so inspiring heading over to John's Crazy Socks.com. If you're looking to get a pair and don't forget to use promo code Peter 22, if you wanna get 10% off while you're at it Alone with Peter is a podcast made for you. I wanna hear your feedback. So let me know, leave a review on apple, Stitcher, Spotify, wherever you get podcast and follow along on Instagram, send me a DM. Let me know what you think of the show. And I hope to see you next time on, along with Peter.
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39 Creating a platform for positive change… with John’s Crazy Socks
13 jun 2022· Alone With Peter
Welcome back for part two of our podcast interview with father-son duo John and Mark Cronin. In the previous episode, we explored the origin story of John’s Crazy Socks a multi-million dollar social enterprise with a mission to spread happiness. We talked about the incredible emotional response people have had to their business and we started to see how selling socks has become a platform for change.
Listen on Apple Listen on Spotify Listen on Stitcher Listen on Podchaser Listen on Apple Listen on Spotify Listen on Stitcher Listen on PodchaserThis episode of Alone with Peter is brought to you by Sagebrush Coffee
Sagebrush is an online coffee roastery with a wide variety of single-origin coffees you can order from the comfort of your home knowing that your coffee is so fresh, it isn’t roasted until after you order.
If you’re interested in learning more about the world of coffee, Sagebrush is a great place to start. You can find their website online at Sagebrushcoffee.com and for a limited time from now until August, you can save 10% on your next order of coffee beans by visiting sagebrushcoffee.com/awp10 or by using the promo code awp10 at checkout.
38 Spreading Happiness: The Origin Story of John's Crazy Socks
If you want to explore the previous episode or others in the archive, head on over to peterkersting.com/podcast/38. You can check out transcripts for different episodes, links to content mentioned and guests featured in the podcast, as well as stream episodes in their entirety.
In today’s episode, we’re continuing the conversation around business as a force for good. We’ll explore how John’s Crazy Socks has used their platform to testify before congress, educate other businesses on the benefits of hiring the differently-abled and so much more.
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Website: https://johnscrazysocks.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/johnscrazysocks
Twitter: https://twitter.com/JohnsCrazySocks
LinkedIn: MXC https://www.linkedin.com/in/mxcronin/
LinkedIn: JCS: https://www.linkedin.com/company/11171456/admin/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/johnscrazysocks/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/Johnscrazysocks/
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Enjoy part 2 of our interview with John and Mark Cronin of John's Crazy Socks
*Transcripts may contain a few typos. With interviews ranging from 1-2 hours, it can be difficult to catch minor errors.
39 Creating a platform for positive change... with John's Crazy Socks
Peter Kersting: Welcome to Alone With Peter. I'm your host, and on this podcast, you're going to hear interviews with entrepreneurs, artists, digital nomads, and people seeking personal growth. We'll dive deep into what set them on their journey, where they are now, and how their story can impact you, including any helpful insights if you aspire to take a similar leap of faith, no matter where you are on the journey. Thank you for spending some quality time Alone With Peter.
Peter Kersting: This episode of Alone With Peter is brought to you by Sagebrush Coffee Roastery. There's nothing quite like a good cup of coffee. That's why I've always made it a point when traveling to try out the local cuisine and find the best coffee shops. From the Instagrammable coffee of East Asia to the classic cafes of Western Europe, I've tried a lot of coffee, and let me tell you something. Nothing has quite hit the spot like Sagebrush coffee.
Peter Kersting: Sagebrush is an online coffee roastery with a wide variety of single-origin coffees. You can order from the comfort of your home knowing that your coffee is so fresh it isn't roasted until after you order, but what makes Sagebrush so special is their dedication to the farmers and producers who make the coffee. Sagebrush's goal on a fundamental level is to allow the hard work of those producers to shine and to be rewarded for it. If you're interested in the process of coffee, while becoming a more conscious consumer, Sagebrush is a gold mine of information.
Peter Kersting: Along with their selection of coffee beans to purchase, Sagebrush has an extensive archive of free educational blog posts that are built into their website to help shed more light on the world of the coffee industry and how your purchasing power impacts that world. You'll learn the history of specific countries of origin, see breakdowns of various coffee terminology and find quick blurbs about family business updates. If you're interested in learning more about the world of coffee, Sagebrush is a great place to start. You can find their website online at sagebrushcoffee.com. For a limited time from now until August, you can save 10% on your next order of coffee beans by visiting sagebrushcoffee.com/awp10 or by using the promo code AWP10 at checkout.
Speaker 2: (singing) Alone With Peter.
Peter Kersting: Welcome back for Part 2 of our podcast interview with father-son duo, John and Mark Cronin. In the previous episode, we explored the origin story of John's Crazy Socks, a multimillion-dollar social enterprise with a mission to spread happiness. We talked about the incredible emotional response people have had to their business, and we started to see how selling socks has become a platform for change. If you want to explore the previous episode or others in the archive, head on over to peterkersting.com/podcast/38. You can check out transcripts for different episodes, links to content mentioned, and guests featured in the podcast, as well as stream episodes in their entirety.
Peter Kersting: In today's episode, we're continuing the conversation around business as a force for good. We'll explore how John's Crazy Socks has used their platform to testify before Congress, educate other businesses around the benefits of hiring the differently-abled and so much more.
Peter Kersting: You guys have testified in Congress. You've done TEDx talks. Can you speak to that part of it? What is it that you're trying to change in the world?
Mark Cronin: It's based on show, don't tell. We want to share our experience, so we'll tell you it's about showing what's possible. More broadly defined, it's what entrepreneurs can do and the positive impact. We want to share the power of social enterprises and more narrowly, it's we want to show what people with different abilities can do, and so we look for all sorts of ways of doing that. That's not what we expected to do when we started.
Mark Cronin: When we started, it was John needed something meaningful to do. For us to do it, it would have to produce income. I remember the first time someone asked us to speak out of town. An event organizer called us up and wanted us to fly to Cleveland to speak at a fundraising event. We said, "Oh. Well, sure." She said, "Okay. What are your fees?" I said, "Fees, huh? Well, you're going to have to pay for our travel." She says, "Yes, of course we will, but what are your speaker fees?" "Speaker fees?"
John Cronin: Why don't you give us a beer?
Mark Cronin: I normally got to buy somebody a beer to get them to listen to me, but here's an example of what the platform allows us to do and then the obligation it creates. So you've mentioned that we've testified now before Congress, and we've been down there other times. That's one thing. Elected officials will take our calls and listen to us, so because of that, it's important that we advocate for certain legislative changes and policy changes to advance the rights of people with different abilities.
Mark Cronin: We're down there one day. A customer from Houston calls our office and says, "My mom works on Capitol Hill, and she's a big fan of John's, and I see that Mark and John are down on Capitol Hill. Do you think my mother could meet them?" Our colleague said, "Sure. Here's Mark's cell phone number. Text him Mom's contact information." Well, who was mom?
John Cronin: Nancy Pelosi.
Mark Cronin: Nancy Pelosi, so we get an audience with Nancy Pelosi. One thing that is unfortunate about where we're at today, we so vilify many of our elected officials or people we oppose. In the past week, there were people voting in favor of the Supreme Court Justice and opponents saying, "Well, therefore they support pedophiles." We're like, "Come on now, what are we doing?" That's the world we live in, but here we go meet Nancy Pelosi. Forget wherever you are in the political spectrum. Nancy Pelosi is an 80-year-old Italian grandmother. Let's start there, and she sees John, and she's so warm and lovely towards him and took out pictures of socks that she had given former President George H.W. Bush because John had somewhat famously become sock buddies with the former President, so it was a nice exchange, right?
John Cronin: Yeah.
Mark Cronin: You guys are talking and taking pictures, but now that we have this opportunity, we have to make use of it, so it's like, "Well, Ms. Pelosi, now that we're done with the pictures, we need to talk about eliminating the sub-minimum wage that allows upwards of 400,000 people with disability to be paid as little as five cents an hour in our country."
Peter Kersting: Holy cow.
Mark Cronin: Because if we get that opportunity, you have to make use of it, so yes, the business has evolved where you're willing to have us on the podcast, where we do a lot of speaking engagements, where we are able to meet with elected officials. That gives us an opportunity to further our mission, to show what's possible, and to show what people with different abilities can do.
Peter Kersting: Well, I appreciate a couple things in what you just said, and I'd like to unpack them a little if that's okay. First, something that I think is dearly missing in our society right now is to treat every single person you meet with dignity and respect, no matter what your relationship is to them, so you're right. In that sense, it's become so polarized. It doesn't matter if that person is treating you well. It doesn't matter if you agree with what they're doing or not. You can advocate against what they stand for even and still treat that person with dignity and respect, so that's very important.
Peter Kersting: I also appreciate that there's so much negativity in the world. Not that you ignore it and pretend it away, but to focus on the positives the way that you are creating common ground with people from across the spectrum. You're also through your actions showing what people with differing abilities can do, but there's not a louder statement you can make than being a multimillionaire sock tycoon, John. Someone can't look at you and say, "Oh, he's not capable."
Mark Cronin: Let's pump the brakes a little. John's not a multimillionaire. Our business is doing millions.
Peter Kersting: Multimillion dollar business. Fair.
Mark Cronin: We're not the jet set. We are the old shepherd led set, as the song goes.
Peter Kersting: Fair, fair.
Mark Cronin: Yes, always show, don't tell. When we talk about showing what's possible, there are two sides to that coin. One is we want to show students and other people with the differing ability, there is hope. There are things they can do, so we host tours for that reason. We'll go speak in the schools. It's more than just, "Oh, you could do this," but we want them to see. Here are people that look just like you doing meaningful work, doing jobs, and that has an impact.
Mark Cronin: I'll give you an anecdote. We got a call from a teacher one day after she had brought her high school class in for a tour. One of her students who was on the autism spectrum, and she said was frequently difficult to reach, came in the next day and printed out a picture of him and John together, went up to the teacher and said, "You see, I can do anything."
Mark Cronin: One side of that coin is showing students what's possible, but the other side is showing other employers and politicians, elected officials what's possible, what people with different abilities can do, so we'll invite other businesses in here. We'll go speak to them. It's one thing to say, "Oh, it's a good thing for you to hire people with different abilities." It's another thing to show. "Hey, look at how good our fulfillment operation works. Look at how we're able to fill every job when you can't find enough good people. Look at how successful the business becomes because of whom we hire." That's more powerful than me talking about some theoretical possibility.
Peter Kersting: Words have meaning, and you constantly share this quote. "Hiring people with differing abilities is not altruism." First of all, I want to touch on why you use the phrase differing abilities, specifically, and then also, what do you mean by that's not altruism, and how are you helping other businesses? Since we're talking about show, don't tell, what is your relationship with those other businesses because I've noticed in your social media even there is a lot of different businesses that are doing something similar and are successful. I know that's a couple different questions there.
Mark Cronin: Okay, so let me take one at a time.
Peter Kersting: Yes.
Mark Cronin: First, why differing abilities? I don't think there's a single term that one can use, but it's an opposition to the word disability or disabled. We use that term because it's a legal term, because it defines a population, but that speaks about limitations from what you can't do. There's an educational theorist at Harvard named Howard Gardner, and Howard Gardner has a theory of multiple intelligences. We measure two in schools, verbal and analytical capability, but in fact we have a physical intelligence. We have a social intelligence. You have a management intelligence. He started off, I think, identifying seven and now he's up to nine.
Mark Cronin: He'd portray them if he did a profile of somebody with a bar chart, and you might be strong here and not as strong over here. So I think of my partner, John. John has 400 distinct intelligences, and some of them he's off the charts and some he's like a two-year-old, and I think that's true of all of us. So we don't ask John to do our finances. It turns out John has difficulty with abstract reasoning, so if I ask you your favorite subject in school, what do you say?
Peter Kersting: Math.
Mark Cronin: But John has to do math by counting digits, can't do abstractions. We run into a problem because similes and metaphors don't work with John, very literal, but there are some things. John's organizational skills, his problem solving, they're off the charts. So to say he's got a disability, that's not right. It doesn't speak to what he's able to do.
Peter Kersting: That makes me so excited to hear that. I want to pause that just because that's not just true of people with differing abilities. That's true of all of us.
Mark Cronin: All of us. Right?
Peter Kersting: Yeah.
Mark Cronin: So then you move on to business, and there are two lines. There are a lot of lines I repeat, but hiring people with differing abilities is not altruism. It's good business. The reason that we try to drive that message home is a lot we'll run into businesses that think, "Oh, we should do a good thing for the community. It'll be good for my church. I will feel good." All of that is true. If you hire people with different abilities, you will feel good and you should, but the reason to do it and want to be hard-headed about this is because it's good business. We can walk through lots of examples of why it gives you a competitive advantage when you hire people with different abilities.
Speaker 2: Alone With Peter.
Peter Kersting: If you're feeling inspired by this episode of John's Crazy Socks, and you're hoping to get a pair, you're in luck because for a special period of time, we have a promo code. If you enter Peter22 on your checkout, you can get 10% off your next pair of John's Crazy Socks, a great business with a great cause, spreading happiness. If you've been getting a little joy from listening to Alone With Peter, I ask that you take the time to rate, review and subscribe on Apple podcast, Spotify or wherever you get podcasts and follow us on Instagram at Alone With Peter. We'll be doing a giveaway with John's Crazy Socks in the next week or two, and I don't want you to miss out on this amazing prize, so follow along, and until then, let's get back to our show.
Mark Cronin: It gives you a competitive advantage when you hire people with different abilities.
Peter Kersting: Maybe you can do that for John's Crazy Socks. How has that made you successful to hire so many people with different abilities?
Mark Cronin: Here's some examples, right? We run our own pick and pack warehouse. What do we call our pickers?
John Cronin: Sock wranglers.
Mark Cronin: Sock wranglers, so there are a couple things going on. Certainly in this area of the world, in Long Island at least, but in much of the US, there's a growing labor shortage. Employers will tell you all the time, "We can't find enough good workers." Last fall, last holiday season, Newsday, the local Long Island paper, or I should say the big Long Island paper ran a long article about how employers couldn't find people, and it was hurting business during the holidays. We had a surplus of candidates because we brought in the pool and said, "We're not going to arbitrarily exclude people," so while others couldn't find enough employees, we could fill every job.
Mark Cronin: Be really clear here. We're not dumbing down our standards, and we're not paying people less, but you want to get good workers. Again, in our specific warehouse situation, over the years, we have drawn from basically three labor pools. People with differing abilities, Moms. There's some Dads in there because we schedule people on four-hour shifts. Now some of that is an accommodation for people with different abilities who may if they're collecting SSI, they can't work more than a certain number of hours, or they'll lose their benefits. So we schedule people four-hour shifts, so Moms like it because you come in the morning. Put my kid on the bus in the morning, do my work, go home, pick my kid up in the bus in the afternoon. Then the other pool are just general laborers who are looking for a $15-an-hour job. By far, the best labor pool for us are people with differing abilities.
Peter Kersting: Now with that, I have a question. I am imagining, and maybe you can tell me how you do this, you've become very good at recognizing what people's strengths are. You were talking about different intelligences and how, for example, John is really great with problem solving and ideas. How are you able to assign the best role to people in your business?
Mark Cronin: Okay, these are different questions, so let's start with the most common position we have here is the sock wrangler. I'll walk through the hiring. First, you don't start the hiring on the day you have an opening. Our overall approach, backing up now, is drive the mission that drives the brand that drives our sales, but we're always wanting to advance the mission, so therefore people get to know more about our business. We hold those tours for school groups and for social service agencies, so they get to see the work we do. We host workgroups from social service agencies and some schools, so they can bring people in to get a taste of what work is like. They get to see us. We also, by the way, get to see them and get to start to identify people that, "Oh, they may be really good," so now when we have an opening for a sock wrangler, we've already prepared our soil, if you will, to reap some benefits and some growth.
Mark Cronin: We'll share first to our community through social media, through our colleagues here. We've developed relationships with schools and universities. They get to know us and know what the environment is and the people we're looking for, but let's be really clear about the sock wrangler job. Once you come in, you meet with John and me. We want to make sure you know our mission and our story and our values. We want to make sure you want to be here. You're not here because Mom or Dad want you to be.
Mark Cronin: Then we give you your training. Our current sock wranglers do the training, and they love to train people. Then to get the job, you have to pass the sock wrangler test. You have to pick six orders in 30 minutes or less, nothing extraneous. Show us you can do the job. You pass that test, you have the job. Now, once you're in here, now we are going to explore and see what your other talents are, see what else we can use.
Mark Cronin: Miranda would work in the office and help us with filing and with shredding and scanning. Riley organized our kitchen. Matt wrote sock descriptions and product descriptions. Part of what we try to do is let's see what the job requires and hire for the job and not get confused with extraneous demands. If I'm putting together a basketball team, I probably want, what do you want to say? LeBron James, Kevin Durant on my team. I don't care what their SAT scores were. I don't care if they speak French. I want to know, can they play hoops? Frequently, employers will not even talk to people for arbitrary reasons that have nothing to do with the job.
Mark Cronin: For more complex jobs, oh, we just hired three new people, a happiness creator who works directly with our customers, a web designer … We're a small place … who's also doing graphic arts work, video editing, and our community organizer. Maria stops us from flying off the earth. Well, there are certain skills that you want to make sure they have for that job, right? Naziro, who we hired for the web design, she's got to be able to know how to use Photoshop. She doesn't have to be the best Photoshop person in the world. Then we want to make sure you have the right character and cultural fit for us, that you understand the type of place we are and you're going to work well in here.
Mark Cronin: We've learned. We've gotten better at how to do that. I had a conversation yesterday with a guy who runs an employment agency. We're friends and he comes along, but we don't hire through him. We hire our own people. He was saying, "Well, a lot of companies, they don't want to do it. They don't want to take the risk." We spend a lot of time on that interview process. You go through multiple interviews. You talk to everybody in the place. We want a lot of eyes on you, but we also want you to know everything about us, so we get a fullness of character. Does that make sense to you?
Peter Kersting: Absolutely. The reason I asked for you to do that breakdown is because I think a lot of times employers are trying to fill a position rather than find somebody that they align with, with their values and then finding the right position for them.
Mark Cronin: That matters so much more. I can think of in previous businesses. I spent much my career in the healthcare field in organizing, managing healthcare management firms. I can remember meeting a woman when I spoke. I was a guest lecturer at the Columbia School of Public Health. We hit it off. I got to learn more about her, and I spent two years trying to figure out how to bring her into our organization because I knew I wanted her to work with us. I wasn't sure what the role would be, or Gail, whom we just hired. The first cut. Someone else had done a first cut on resumes, and hers was not in the pile of people for us to start to interview, but I checked the reject file, if you will. I said, "Wait a second. Look at what this woman has done." The response was, "Yeah, but she's never worked customer service before." Who cares?
Peter Kersting: Right.
Mark Cronin: That might even be a positive.
Peter Kersting: Yeah. Well, you get to train her from the ground up. I mean, there's so many things, I don't know how much time we have to talk about this specifically, but it's worth highlighting because I've done quite a few different jobs over the years. I interview people more often than I'm interviewed on podcasts, but I was thinking about this the last time I was on a podcast, which is that if I tie all the different jobs that I've had together and go, which ones were great and which ones did I not enjoy so much? The people that I loved working for, for one thing, I felt like they cared about me as a person more than about the job specifically that I was completing, so I felt very comfortable working with them because I felt like they cared about me as person. But second, they were looking at, "What is Peter capable of doing and how do we make him succeed because that's what's going to make us succeed?"
Mark Cronin: Yes. My own bias is to hire people who are coming up the learning curve, and I find that more interesting than somebody who's already been there, done that. There are a couple things there, and I'm fully agreeing with you. Hands down, culture matters more than skills, but let me hit on two points. One, okay, we've spoken about our business. We're a small business, a unique type of place, maybe, so let's consider another business.
Mark Cronin: You may have heard of them. They've got a software company based out of Redmond, Washington. They're called Microsoft, so they're in fierce competition to hire programmers and people with high technical skills. Well, they pick their heads up one day and say, "How come we don't hire anybody with autism, particularly since so many people with autism have great technical skills?" Well, the answer is easy, because maybe those people with autism, they don't shake your hand the right way, or they may not look you in the eye. Microsoft figured out that was their problem, so they changed their hiring process. Now they hire lots of people with autism and guess what? That gives them a competitive advantage because they said, "Let's look for what really matters."
Mark Cronin: I want to jump to what you said about somebody recognizing you as a person, so we could talk about our five pillars. One of them is we want to make this a great place to work. I mean, some of it's simple. If we're on a mission to spread happiness in the community and amongst our customers, we have to start here. Our colleagues have to be happy working here, but what I've also learned is you get the right people. You put them in the right position. You point them in the right direction, and everything will take care of itself. Right?
Mark Cronin: We have a five component piece about making this a great place to work. One, offer people a mission worthy of their commitment, something that people can believe in. They get to decide. You don't get to decide, but you get to offer them what that mission is. It can't just be, "I'm going to give you a paycheck." It's never enough. So you offer them a mission that they can believe in that can motivate them, and that's their part, right?
Mark Cronin: Then two, make sure everybody knows why their job matters. There is no cognitive machinery. There's no make work. As a business, we cannot afford to have people that are just going through the motions or their job doesn't really matter. If it doesn't matter, why are we paying them? Make sure everybody knows how their job, it matters, and it's fulfilling the mission. You can go to every single person here and ask them, "What's the mission?" They're going to tell you, "It's spreading happiness," and how do you help do it? They're going to tell you.
Mark Cronin: Third, put people in a position to succeed. Don't ask people to do what they can't do, and give them the supports that they need. So, Naziro, the webmaster, web design person we just hired. "Naziro, what type of computer do you need? We're in the Microsoft world." She goes, "Well, I prefer Apple and this is the type of device." "Okay. We're going to get it for you." To be clear, we don't have endless resources, but give people the tools they need.
Peter Kersting: Right. Well, especially with that, you're talking about return on investment, right, because if she has to learn a whole new system, that's totally different?
Mark Cronin: Yes, but if people are motivated and you're taking care of them, everything will follow. Four, recognize the work that people do. Here's a simple one, Peter. You put a lot of time into this podcast. You worked up outlines and questions, and you had to spend time thinking about how to structure this. Well, just say, "Thank you. Hey, I saw you do that." Recognize. "Hey, this was great work."
Mark Cronin: You talk to people today. We had a call with one of our charity partners, and they were talking about email and the problems that they have getting people to even open their emails. We shared what we do with my colleague, Christie, who handles our email, who was there. We were able to say, "Listen, here's our approach. We're not experts. Here's our approach, but we have a 43% open rate."
Peter Kersting: 43%? I think the average is like 18% or 20.
Mark Cronin: Yes. It's off the chart.
Peter Kersting: That's insane.
Mark Cronin: But make sure that I give the credit to Christie and in front of other people. So, you say thank you. Some of that is make sure people are paid fairly. That doesn't mean you have to pay more than everybody else, and pay to me is never really an incentive, but it can be a disincentive. If you think you're being underpaid, that's going to stick in your craw because that's saying they don't respect what I do. Then the last thing, stay the hell out of the way. Let people do their jobs.
Mark Cronin: If you do those five things, you're going to be in a good place. Part of it is also, and I hear this from other business owners, treat people the way you would want to be treated. Treat people with the same respect and the same freedom. "Oh, no, no, no. They're different than me," as if they're adversaries. Well, if you go into it thinking they're your adversary, you are going to have a problem.
Peter Kersting: Yes. Yes. Oh, man. There's so many different things we could touch on. Maybe we'll have to have you guys back on the podcast a different time because there's too many questions I'm not going to be able to get answers from in this three-part interview. Oh, man. I just want to say, I couldn't agree with you more, on all of those things. For one, I have quit jobs that have paid me better to take jobs that pay far less, simply because I didn't get those other things that you were just talking about. Pay, you said it. I couldn't say it better. It's not an incentive. It's a disincentive if anything, and it's only because they're not getting paid enough.
Mark Cronin: We just had somebody come back with us, so it's not all perfect. We've had our ups and downs. Things go wrong. Our first two years we were booming, profitable, but our second year in particular we had a bunch of viral experiences and ridiculous media coverage. Third year, we come crashing down. We got no money. I'm running out of money. By the end of the year, I got to let everybody go. We're in virtual bankruptcy. I mean, having a comical conversation with a bankruptcy firm telling me, "Oh, you need to declare bankruptcy. We'll handle it for you, but we need $50,000 upfront," and me saying, "Hell. If I had $50,000, I wouldn't be talking to you," but anyway, we had to let people go. Now we're stabilized. We've got our strategic partner. We're growing back.
Mark Cronin: I hear from somebody we let go, Maria. She said, "Mark, I just want to come back because I was never so happy when I was working there." She took a pay cut to come here. She had a good job at another place, a big hospital system. She says, "I was just a cog in the machine." It makes me feel so good. Maria has been back with us a few months, doing great work, already indispensable, but just to see her walking around and smiling and feeling so happy, but she does great work. It's not play. If you get to know us, you would find out that John here is a very nice guy, very nice. Right? I am not. If you are going to work here, you got to produce.
Peter Kersting: John, I think of you as the fun master, and I want to ask you a couple questions. Okay? Number one is you're basically a celebrity, right? People notice you on the street. They want to take your picture. They want to hang out with you.
John Cronin: Yes.
Peter Kersting: But you might also be a superhero. Who's Sockman?
Mark Cronin: Who is Sockman?
John Cronin: I am.
Peter Kersting: Tell me about Sockman.
Mark Cronin: You like dressing up as Sockman?
John Cronin: Yes. I love dressing up as him.
Peter Kersting: Who is he?
Mark Cronin: His own superhero.
Peter Kersting: I watched that video of you dancing as Sockman, and I was jealous because that costume is so cool.
John Cronin: Thank you.
Peter Kersting: I'll have to share the link to the video when I post this episode, but you like to have fun. What are some things you do for fun at work? How do you make the workplace a fun place to be, John?
Mark Cronin: Well, what do you do every Tuesday afternoon?
John Cronin: I host a dance party every Tuesday 2:00 PM Eastern Time. I am a dancer.
Mark Cronin: You host a dance party, right?
John Cronin: Yeah.
Mark Cronin: Well, first of all, you got to understand. They used to say that James Brown is the hardest working man in showbiz. This is the hardest working man in Sockdom. You just love that, but listen. Here are things we do. Every Tuesday is Bagel Tuesday. Every Friday we have staff lunch. You picked staff lunch today, right?
John Cronin: I did.
Mark Cronin: Where'd you bring it in from?
John Cronin: Burger Village.
Mark Cronin: Burger Village, but that's a good thing. We all sit down and break bread together.
John Cronin: Excuse me a second. I've got to talk nice things about my Dad.
Mark Cronin: Nice things about me?
John Cronin: Yeah. Is that okay with you?
Mark Cronin: That'd be fine. That'd be nice.
John Cronin: My Dad pushed me. He knew that I could have success. My Dad is a proud father. I recently said that to him because I came. I'm learning a lot. I keep learning. I talk to him and as many persons I can, and he permits me because I'm learning a lot, at a learning curve.
Mark Cronin: You're easy to believe in.
John Cronin: My Dad is very easy.
Mark Cronin: Right. Yeah, my boy.
Peter Kersting: That's awesome. Thanks for sharing that, John.
Mark Cronin: We've got the social enterprise, social and a business drive. What's the mission?
John Cronin: Spreading happiness.
Mark Cronin: Spreading happiness, and we've built it on five pillars.
John Cronin: A spirit in hope, giving back, find products that you can love, make it personal and make it a great place to work.
Mark Cronin: We already spoke about how we go about trying to make it a great place to work. The making it personal, we're always looking to make connections with our customers. We're looking for relationships, not just transactions, and that drives everything we do, and it's made manifest in everything we do, so it's simple, right? It's the thank-you note and the candy in every package, but everybody buys in, so I'll give you a couple examples.
Mark Cronin: We sell socks for diabetics, these high compression socks. One day, one of our happiness packers comes and says, "You know, we're sending socks to diabetics and we send them candy. What's wrong with this picture?" So now we have a supply of sugar-free candy that goes with the diabetic socks, or if we see an address from a military base, that's a different package.
Mark Cronin: Take email. We mentioned we've got this 43% open rate. Well, any business, for one, you've got to know how important your email list is because you own that, and we have 240,000 Facebook followers, but that's a phony number because those people belong to Facebook. We can't directly contact them, but when people give you their email, they're trusting you. You've got to use it right, but at the same time, most every business, if they're honest with it, they'll tell you. Every time they send out an email, they get a little blip in sales, so it's very tempting to send a lot of emails.
Mark Cronin: There are businesses I get four emails a day from. It's crazy, so we're very careful. We only send emails to people that want to open them. If you don't open emails, we stop sending them to you. You don't even have to ask. We don't want to bother you. We send out two a week. One of them is just a message from John. It's just John sharing what he's up to. We're not selling you anything because we're looking for that long relationship.
Mark Cronin: We do our own fulfillment. People segment their email to be able to more personalize it. We do that. We segment our fulfillment. We have five different base packages. They all have the same ingredients, but if this is your first order, you get one package. If it's your third order, you're getting a different package. Anything we can do to make that connection work. Then fun products you can love. How many different socks do we have?
John Cronin: 4,000 different kind of socks.
Mark Cronin: 4,000 different socks. John now owns the world's largest sock store.
John Cronin: That's right.
Mark Cronin: At its heart, we have to be a great business. We have to have a great website, a great selection. You got to have great products. We have over 29,000 5-star reviews. 96% of the reviews we get are 5-star reviews, and you got to have great service, so we do same-day shipping. An order comes in today, it's going out today. Your friend over there at Amazon, Jeff Bezos, he's not putting a candy and thank-you notes in those packages. Then it's the giving back, so that's baked into everything we do. We started by pledging 5% of our earnings to the Special Olympics, and why the Special Olympics?
John Cronin: I am a Special Olympics athlete.
Mark Cronin: Yes, you are. We wouldn't be here without the Special Olympics. John would not be in this position to own a business without that, but we've gone on to create products that celebrate causes, raise awareness and raise money for those causes. So what was the first awareness sock?
John Cronin: First one is Down Syndrome Awareness socks.
Mark Cronin: Who designed those Down Syndrome Awareness socks?
John Cronin: I did.
Mark Cronin: They celebrate people with Down's Syndrome and they raise money for the National Down Syndrome Society, but we have Autism Awareness Socks, Cerebral Palsy. Today we were on the phone with the people from the Williams Syndrome Association. We created Healthcare Superhero socks that raised $50,000 for frontline workers. We make donations, and we sponsor an Autism Can Do Scholarship. It's not, "Well, if we make money at the end of the year, we'll write a check."
Mark Cronin: You got to engage, so we'll promote these causes and work with our charity partners. We've now donated over $500,000 to our charity partners. So you see, he is a philanthropist, but then most of all, the most important pillar is showing what people with different abilities can do. So, we start with John. John has Down's syndrome. Well, we don't put him in the back. You're the face of the business. It's your business.
John Cronin: Yeah. Right.
Mark Cronin: We've created 34 jobs. 22 of those are held by people with different abilities, and that's not enough. We've been talking of we want to show, so we create content to share on our social media platforms. We now have a podcast. We host tours and workgroups from schools and social service agencies. We do speaking engagements. It's one of the reasons we're so grateful, Peter, that you have us on your podcast. Then we do that advocacy work, so all that rolls up to being John's Crazy Socks. It's what attracts our colleagues and our customers because when you buy from us, yes, you're going to get great socks. You're going to get great service, but now you are part of it. You are helping us hire people with different abilities. You're helping us give back. You're helping spread happiness.
Mark Cronin: This can segue … I know we will do another conversation … into actionable items. I think every business … I can share our experience, mine here and elsewhere. You have to know what you're about. You got to know your purpose. You got to know your values, and you have to believe. You can't just pay lip service. You have to have a deep conviction, and then it becomes manifest in everything you do.
Mark Cronin: So we talk about spreading happiness and personal connections. How do we answer the phone? First, our happiness creator, names, words matter. They don't have a script. They're not following a strict protocol. They're going to get things done, and they're going to have a human conversation with you. Our return policy is open-ended. We guarantee. You're not happy, we'll give you your money back anytime. Somebody called three years ago. They didn't even open the package. They just opened it and said, "Oh, I don't like this." "Okay. We'll give you your money back. We'll send you new socks." Guess what? Our return rate is 0.5 of 1% because you take care of people, but you've got to know what the values are. You got to know what your purpose is, and you got to have conviction.
Peter Kersting: Thank you for sharing that, Mark and John, for being on the podcast. This is a lot of fun, and I'm excited to hear you guys give some actionable tips. I'm learning a lot more about who you two are as individuals. I think the big takeaway from this particular episode to me is by starting with the values, starting with the way you want to treat people, those five pillars you just mentioned, everything else is based off of that. It's made John's Crazy Socks a place people want to work. It's made it the place that people want to buy from. I certainly have enjoyed getting to know you two, and I'm excited to have you back on in a little bit.
Mark Cronin: All right, Peter. Thank you.
John Cronin: Thank you.
Peter Kersting: That's a wrap for Part 2 of our interview with John and Mark Cronin of John's Crazy Socks. Tune in next week for actionable and practical tips if you aspire to take a similar leap of faith, and thank you for spending some quality time Alone With Peter.
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38 Spreading Happiness: The Origin Story of John’s Crazy Socks
6 jun 2022· Alone With Peter
Today on Alone with Peter, I am joined by two very special guests, John and Mark Cronin of John's crazy socks. John and his dad, Mark Cronin are the co-founders of John's crazy socks, a social enterprise with a mission to spread happiness.
Listen on Apple Listen on Spotify Listen on Stitcher Listen on Podchaser Listen on Apple Listen on Spotify Listen on Stitcher Listen on PodchaserThis episode of Alone with Peter is brought to you by Sagebrush Coffee Roastery
Sagebrush is an online coffee roastery with a wide variety of single-origin coffees you can order from the comfort of your home knowing that your coffee is so fresh, it isn’t roasted until after you order.
If you’re interested in learning more about the world of coffee, Sagebrush is a great place to start. You can find their website online at Sagebrushcoffee.com and for a limited time from now until August, you can save 10% on your next order of coffee beans by visiting sagebrushcoffee.com/awp10 or by using the promo code awp10 at checkout.
John's Crazy Socks
John’s Crazy Socks was inspired by John Lee Cronin, a young man with Down syndrome, and a wacky fashion sense. In five years, they bootstrapped their business into the world's largest sock store with multimillion-dollar sales in 88 different nations.
John and Mark remain fierce advocates for the rights of the differently-abled with more than half of their employees having differing abilities. They’ve been able to raise over $475,000 for charity partners like the Special Olympics, the National Down Syndrome Society, and the Autism Society of America. And they’ve used their platform to instigate change in legislature, testifying twice before US Congress, speaking at the United Nations, and recording two TEDx talks.
I’m so excited to have these two on Alone with Peter today to talk about their origin story and entrepreneurial journey. In part 1 of this three-part interview we discuss:
John and Mark’s father-son bond and how their relationship shapes their businessAnecdotes of John’s problem-solving ability, his adventurous spirit, and natural entrepreneurialism The origin story of John’s Crazy Socks. A multi-billion-dollar social enterprise based on spreading happiness.Being born with down syndrome: John’s medical issues and an unfortunate point of viewHow life becomes so much easier when you just accepted that you’re an idiot Why start a business and why socks? Recognizing the limited opportunities people of differing abilities face and shifting the culture.Authenticity in business: Embracing who you are, doing what you love, and reaping the rewardsThe surprising emotional response to John’s Crazy SocksEmbracing imperfection and experimenting with your business: How overplanning kills productivity and efficiencyThe biggest secret to success: starting small and learning as you go.Why socks?Why Down Syndrome doesn't define John or others with differing abilities.. John’s fashion style, why he and Mark could never be classmates, and how John reacts to being noticed on the street.The beauty of social enterprise: Using John’s Crazy Socks as a platform for changeFollow us on Instagram!
Be sure to follow Alone with Peter on Instagram for highlight clips of the latest episodes, previews of upcoming guests, and more. Follow along, and send me a DM to let me know what you think of the show!
Get 10% off your next sock order with promo code PETER22
Looking for a daily dose of happiness? Follow John's Crazy Socks on social media and get 10% off your next order of crazy socks using our promo code PETER22.
Website: https://johnscrazysocks.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/johnscrazysocks
Twitter: https://twitter.com/JohnsCrazySocks
LinkedIn: MXC https://www.linkedin.com/in/mxcronin/
LinkedIn: JCS: https://www.linkedin.com/company/11171456/admin/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/johnscrazysocks/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/Johnscrazysocks/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@johnscrazysocks
Enjoy part 1 of our interview with John and Mark Cronin of John's Crazy Socks
*Transcripts may contain a few typos. With interviews ranging from 1-2 hours, it can be difficult to catch minor errors.
Peter Kersting: Hello, and welcome to Alone with Peter, a podcast for entrepreneurs, artists, digital nomads, and people seeking personal growth. Today, I am joined by two very special guests, John and mark Cronin of John's crazy socks. John and his dad, Mark Cronin are the co-founders of John's crazy socks, a social enterprise with a mission to spread happiness. In five years, they bootstrapped their startup into the world's largest sock store with multimillion dollar sales in 88 nations. John and Mark are fierce advocates for the rights of the differently abled and have testified twice before us Congress and spoken at the United nations and recorded two TEDx talks.
Peter Kersting: This father-son duo has addressed audiences across the US, Canada and Mexico. And I'm so excited to have them on Alone with Peter today to talk about their origin story and their entrepreneurial journey.
Mark Cronin: Peter, we are excited to be here.
John Cronin: Thank you, Peter. I really appreciate
Mark Cronin: This is great. We've been looking forward to this conversation.
John Cronin: Me too.
Peter Kersting: Yeah, I'm I'm I'm glad cuz I'm excited just watching you guys talk to each other. I love your father's son bond and I thought that'd be a great place to start this conversation. So I like to do backstory because it gives us some perspective, and helps us really understand where you come from and how you've been able to accomplish what you've done. And, and so I feel like there's a lot we can learn from you too. And I wanted to start with your relationship. So maybe you could describe to us what that is like for you too.
Mark Cronin: Well, we could talk about the business thing, but that's been a natural growth of our relationship we've spent, we've been through a lot together. Right, right. Um, and we've spent a lot of time together and just enjoying each other's company. And John here, I would suggest that John approaches the world the way an artist might of able to transform the ordinary into something special or like the Mary Tyler Moore theme song who can take a nothing date and make it special after all. . I mean, I'll give you an example long before this business we would spend most Saturdays together. Just the two of us. Yeah. Sometimes mom would be around, but just the two of us. Yeah.
John Cronin: That's my favorite. And,
Mark Cronin: And what would we start with?
John Cronin: We'd start with, soccer.
Mark Cronin: Go to special Olympic soccer and then we'd go back to the office we had then and pick up the recycling and go to the recycling center.
John Cronin: I love that.
Mark Cronin: You love that. Just go to the recycling center. We would frequently do the big shop at Costco.
John Cronin: Yes.
Mark Cronin: We would go visit my aunt, Gloria's sister St. Timothy, who has since passed away. But she was in a nursing home. We'd go visit her.
John Cronin: Yes,
Mark Cronin: We'd go run errands.
John Cronin: Right. And my family part, we would call her Costco. I asked my dad, um, I'm gonna court or
Mark Cronin: Oh, you were a Costco card member. Right? You would have these jokes you found very funny.
John Cronin: Yes.
Mark Cronin: Nobody else did. But you found them hilarious.
John Cronin: At, at some time I come up said, can you pick a color?
Mark Cronin: Oh right John. So once John hits a line, he uses this forever. So there is a, uh, a poem by Allen Ginsburg called a supermarket in California in which the narrator is following the ghost of Walt Whitman around a supermarket. And when he gets to the checkout says, Walt, when can I buy my groceries with my good looks? Well, John has taken this line and no matter where we go, he'll ask, can I pay for this with my good looks?
John Cronin: [Inaudible].
Mark Cronin: So I, you know, we've had that. John is the youngest of three, you know, parenting is.
John Cronin: Humbling.
Mark Cronin: It's very humbling. There's so much you wanna do. And, and there's really little, you can do, your children are gonna grow up to be whoever they're gonna grow up to be, but we've always tried to promote their independence. And that includes John and just enjoy the journey, enjoy the ride. Um, and for John, I, I guess there's something special because it started in such a challenging way. Um, when John was born, we did not know he was going to be born with down syndrome. Um, and you know, it was a different day and age. There was a covering pediatrician. He was born in the middle of the night and came in and said, oh, I'm so sorry. I have such bad news to tell you. And he said, well, what are you talking about? This is our son. This is my boy. What? There's no bad news here.
Mark Cronin: But people with down syndrome are frequently born with significant medical issues. And, and that includes John. So on day three of his life, he needed intestinal bypass surgery. Uh, we didn't know if he was gonna survive. We brought a Catholic priest in to baptize him. Um, and he survived that. And then he had a very significant, uh, heart condition. He had two holes in his heart and a leaky valve. And before he was three months old, he had open-heart surgery and we didn't know if he would survive that we knew he couldn't survive without that operation. Um, so maybe when you go through things like that, you appreciate more the trip to the recycling center. Yeah. Um, and just the joy you find in that.
John Cronin: Right. I create fun. It is a great journey. I get there I go out there. It's just me and my dad and we just bubbling around and having fun.
Mark Cronin: I suppose now that I think of it, that's a little bit of what we've done here. Right? The socks, you know, they're just socks. They're just a little bit of fabric. And yet, somehow or other working with John, we're able to transform them into something meaningful, something joyous.
John Cronin: Yes.
Mark Cronin: That's pretty good stuff.
John Cronin: It does. I love you.
Mark Cronin: I can share anecdotes with John of his problems, his adventurous and problem-solving notions, and a bit of that entrepreneurialism that's always been there.
Peter Kersting: I love watching you guys talk to each other and your relationship is just really special. People just enjoy watching. Is that something you realized when you started John's crazy socks, that people would align with that so much? People just wanna watch you work.
Mark Cronin: No, no. And we still, we still have trouble kind of grappling about that. I mean, we'll tell you the full origin story, but you know, what comes out of that? You know, you, you learn by doing, we saw, you know, people related to John, they liked the personal touch. They liked the giving back. The one thing that caught us by surprise was the emotional response we get, um, from so many and its families that have a child with a differing ability or relative. Um, but we also hear, you know, II find it awkward because we're just who we are. We're nothing special. Um, I, I had the CEO of a Fortune 500 company leaning into me, weeping about the relationship I have with John and others. I, I don't know what to say. Um, cause I don't think I love my son, but I've got three sons. I love all three. And, and by the way, you know, we should bring Patrick and Jamie on because they can offer some dissenting opinions. Exactly. You know, you know, it just it's, it's the same thing in the business. We don't do anything special. We don't do anything that requires the proverbial, rocket science. Um, I mean, we'll tell you, we are just, we're just a couple knuckleheads selling socks. But all we want to do is
John Cronin: change the world.
Peter Kersting: That's all just change the world.
Mark Cronin: That's it? Yes. You know, the world's a pretty horrible place sometimes. But if we could make people smile, we could bring a little love to the world. Okay.
Peter Kersting: Yes. And I think you hit the nail on the head in a sense. I'm seeing you two, just being super authentic and in today's world, that's what people are really longing for. Meaningful relationships, authentic, you know, businesses to get behind and maybe you guys stumbled on something. But I feel like the fact that you're just very comfortable being who you are, despite the challenges and everything else. That's what people are becoming emotionally attached to.
Mark Cronin: Well, I mean, one way we explain it is John here has no guile and I'm too old to care. But part of it, how much simpler is life when you just recognize this is who I am, and this is what matters? And you're not putting on heirs and you're not trying to be somebody else. And you're not trying to please everybody else. You know, I knew my eldest son, he was really getting it. He was a couple of years outta college and he was sitting and talking and he said, you know, dad, life became so much easier when I just accepted that I was an idiot, that I didn't know that much and I could go about my life. You know, watch somebody who is told and wants to act like they're really smart and knowledgeable.
Mark Cronin: So now they have to know everything. Right. And if they don't know something, they wind up having to fake it. And then when you do that, well, now you can't learn it cuz you can't ask questions cuz right. You've already said, you'd know whatever it is. But if you just accept, you know, okay. I don't know. Life is okay. You know, sometimes you, you don't have to be the smartest person in the room and it's the person who's not the smartest who can benefit the most because when somebody else is blowing smoke or something, they just ask, "what do you mean?" What's going on here? We kind of apply that to our business. We were talking about that with one of our colleagues earlier today. So we have no excuses. We can't blame what happens on the board. We can't blame it on headquarters. We can't blame it on other people. The business operates the way we want it to operate. And if it's anything other than the way we would dream of it being, why would you do, why would you do that? Why wouldn't you want to create a business the way you always dreamed of doing it?
Peter Kersting: Those are some lessons that are pretty hard for most people to grasp, I think. It seems like a blessing to me that that's something you in your journey and your eldest son, as you mentioned, have been able to learn. We'll talk about this later in the podcast. I think. I don't wanna jump into it too fast, but there's an element of what you're doing with John's crazy socks, which is just, I don't know how to do it. Let's figure it out. Or you know what? Let's not take it too far too fast. Let's just see what happens.
Mark Cronin: Absolutely. You know, we will tell folks we have an aesthetic of ready fire aim, which doesn't mean run around Willy nilly, but don't overthink it. Just go and do things. If we thought about it ahead of time, everything that would be involved in this business, oh my God, we never would've gotten near it, but let's get something up and running and test it and see what happens or, or here's an example in, uh, so we opened in December of 2016. By May of 2017, we're starting to learn. Nobody buys socks in the summer. Um, so what can we do? Well, one of the things we wanted to do was create a sock of the month, a subscription. This is not a brilliant idea. All sorts of people are doing subscriptions. So we sat down with our colleagues at the time and said, let's do this. And within 10 days we had the webpage built. We had figured out the logistics, we'd gotten the inventory and we started
Peter Kersting: Within 10 days.
Mark Cronin: Within 10 days, we got it up and running three or four months later, one of our suppliers, who's also a competitor because they sell direct to the customers. They started a soccer month. Okay. So I, them about it, we got to talking and they told me they had been working on this for a year and a half said, what the hell are you doing? What could you possibly have been doing for a year and a half? They told me about their committees and their tests and this and that. Well, here's, here's part of the answer. By that point, we were more than three months down the road. We had real customers, we had real revenue, we had real experience and we were on our third iteration of our, of that webpage of the functionality built to serve our customers. So their year and a half didn't buy them anything.
Peter Kersting: Yeah. It's a hard lesson learned. And honestly, it's not a lesson that, uh, that, that people necessarily pick up on that. All that preparation beforehand is just, uh, is gonna end up in the same thing. You're gonna fail at some stuff and you're gonna figure out, oh wow, we need to change this part. We were wrong about that versus you just jumped in 10 days in,
Mark Cronin: Right. I'm not suggesting, you know, just be wild and throw stuff out there. But yesterday I had a long conversation with a friend who, actually the son of a friend, and he and his partner are creating a new type of juice bar and they want it to be very healthy, but they're gonna layer in some social aspects.
Mark Cronin: One of their missions is to hire ex-cons to be able to give them jobs and show what convicts can do and that they deserve a chance. And they're building running into this and healthy lifestyles. So they have these plans to have multiple stores and be in a bunch of cities and they're gonna have a big central kitchen and that will feed the smallest stores. And we got to listening and, and listen, I've never run a food store. I love what they're trying to do, but, I said, you know, before you build 20 stores, why don't you try one? Why don't you just get one up and running and see how customers respond and you're gonna go and learn things. And I don't know what they are. I'm not knowledgeable enough to tell you this now, but there are some things that you're thinking of doing that you just know are brilliant and they won't be they'll turn it be a complete flop. And there'll be other things that you're not even thinking about that you're just gonna do will turn out to be a great win, but you gotta go and do get, get things.
Peter Kersting: It reminds me of the founder of Netflix talking about starting up Netflix and that idea. I heard him on The Tim Ferris podcast, and one of the things he said that really stuck with me was there is no such thing as a good idea or a bad idea. You just gotta try something and see if it works. And his story of Netflix is fascinating because there were all these different things that they were thinking about doing or not doing. And Netflix started out totally different than it is now. I wanna ask a slightly different question though, cuz this is really great stuff, but I wanna focus a little bit more on your guys's relationship and, and maybe this is kind of connected to the business too, but, but John, who is the idea guy? Are, are you the idea guy in the business?
John Cronin: Uh, yes. I, I just my idea and I wanna go be with my dad and I wanna sell really fun, crazy socks.
Mark Cronin: The idea for us to go and sell socks is 100%. Yes. John's idea.
John Cronin: Yeah.
Peter Kersting: I know it's not the first idea when you tell us what some of the other ideas were.
Mark Cronin: It wasn't the first idea, but, but Peter, you've worked with entrepreneurs, entrepreneurs all have a lot of ideas.
John Cronin: Yeah.
Mark Cronin: Yeah. And the truth is only some of them are good ideas. Right. We should talk about, you know, the, the getting started and how that happened. Um,
Peter Kersting: Yes, please.
Mark Cronin: Well, you gotta put in context and to a degree, I, I gotta make sure that people understand my partner. Yeah. Right. So you are an entrepreneur.
John Cronin: Yes I am.
Mark Cronin: You're now a sock Tycoon.
John Cronin: Yes.
Mark Cronin: You are a public speaker.
John Cronin: Yes. I am.
Mark Cronin: A public speaker who, by the way, for the first four years of his life, couldn't talk learned sign language.
John Cronin: Yeah. I, I sign language and I use a computer. I press a button. It helped me communicate.
Mark Cronin: So we, we try to make sure people and parents know that. Particularly if they have children with developmental delays that he couldn't talk. And now sometimes
John Cronin: I never shut up.
Mark Cronin: Yeah. We can't get him to be quiet, but, you're a public speaker.
John Cronin: Yes. I am.
Mark Cronin: You donate a lot of money which makes you a philanthropist.
John Cronin: Yes.
Mark Cronin: You're a dancer.
John Cronin: Yes, I am Dad.
Mark Cronin: You're an athlete.
John Cronin: Yes.
Mark Cronin: You're a good friend.
John Cronin: Yes, I am.
Mark Cronin: You got a girlfriend that makes you a boyfriend.
John Cronin: I am a boyfriend. Yeah.
Mark Cronin: You're a brother.
John Cronin: Yeah. A brother.
Mark Cronin: You're a son.
John Cronin: Yes I am.
Mark Cronin: And you happen to have down syndrome.
John Cronin: Yes, I am. I have down syndrome. Down syndrome never hold me back.
Mark Cronin: And this is important because the down syndrome doesn't define John.
John Cronin: Right.
Mark Cronin: It is something he has, it's a characteristic, but he's all these other things too. And that first. Right. But so now we go back a little more than five years ago. It's the fall of 2016. Um, and our story starts in a small log cabin in the woods.
John Cronin: No!
Mark Cronin: It starts in the suburbs of New York City. And where were you, pal?
John Cronin: I was at Huntington high school. It was gonna be my last year of school.
Mark Cronin: So he's trying to figure out what do I do? What do I do when school is open and what are you looking at?
John Cronin: I looked at job programs in school. All the options I don't like.
Peter Kersting: What were the options available to you, John? And what did you not like about them?
John Cronin: I really didn't like it because I am afraid.
Mark Cronin: There weren't many jobs and you know, some of the jobs might be and not putting it down, you know, collecting shopping carts at supermarkets.
John Cronin: Yeah.
Mark Cronin: There were programs he could join, but in many ways they were just, it was like daycare, almost like, okay, we'll keep you busy during the day. Um, exactly. But John here, he's a natural entrepreneur.
John Cronin: Yes, I am.
Peter Kersting: Well, I can tell you're a smart guy, too. John,
Mark Cronin: If you didn't see a job you wanted, what were you gonna do?
John Cronin: I wanna create one. I wanna make one.
Mark Cronin: See John, he can be forward. I mean, I'll pause here, but go back to some childhood things. I mean, I'll give you just a few small anecdotes cuz you were asking about him as a tribe,
Peter Kersting: Please. I wanna see what he was like as a kid. Cuz you mentioned that there were a lot of ways he surprised you.
Mark Cronin: Well, you know, he… Here's one. We were out once, so maybe you were in high school, you know? Yeah. My wife and I, we weren't that great parents, but you know, so he's home alone.
John Cronin: Dad, you're a good parent.
Mark Cronin: And, and he wanted to have mac n cheese.
John Cronin: Mac N Cheese.
Mark Cronin: Yes. You know, healthy food. He wanted to put it in the microwave, but the microwave was busted. So what do you do? Well, what'd you do?
John Cronin: I did. I went to, next-door neighbors' houses, and I asked if I could heat my food.
Mark Cronin: He's knocking on neighbors' doors saying, can I use your microwave?
John Cronin: Yeah. Right. That can be also my problem.
Mark Cronin: Right. Or one time he is you're in summer school, the summer school program. Yeah. And I run into the principal someplace and she's gushing. She goes, mark, you know the talent show that John is organizing. It's so wonderful. And it's great. What he's doing in I'm like what talent show? what turned out. John had decided the school should have a talent show. so, I mean, he, he watches a lot of these teen movies and stuff and just leaves. Well, I'll make that real. So he had barely had gone into the principal when you had some presentation prepared on your iPad.
John Cronin: Yeah. I did.
Mark Cronin: He pitched it to her. She agreed that he went around to all the teachers and organized a school talent show and he didn't have to tell me cuz he was gonna surprise me with an invitation to it, but he didn't need any help. He could go and do this. Um, so for him to come and say, all right, I don't see anything I want. I'm just gonna go make one. And then you told me that I want to go into business with you. That was just natural for him. Right. And he had grown up in a place where I had run different businesses and he had, he had seen that. Um, yes, but yes then you're right. We had to come up with what type of business would we run?
John Cronin: Right.
Mark Cronin: You had a lot of ideas.
John Cronin: I had great ideas.
Mark Cronin: Oh, "I have great ideas." What was one of them?
John Cronin: One of them was a food truck. I have an idea from the movie Chef with Jon Favreau. A very neat movie about a father and son bonding over a food truck.
Mark Cronin: And so this seemed like, could be a good idea. We start talking about what we could make, and where we could do it. I remember, you know, your mom telling you things you should do when you were saying no, no, no, no. It's my food truck. Um
John Cronin:
Mark Cronin: And, tell you the truth. I wasn't sure I wanted to spend my days in a food truck, but it didn't matter because we ran into a problem.
John Cronin: We can't cook.
Mark Cronin: Yeah. We can't cook.
Peter Kersting: That's a pretty big problem.
John Cronin: Yeah.
Mark Cronin: But it was entirely John's idea. The crazy socks. So it was right before Thanksgiving. And you had your Eureka moment.
John Cronin: I did. I wanna sell crazy socks. Why socks? It's fun. It's colorful. It's creative. It will always let me be me.
Mark Cronin: John wore these crazy socks all his life. Yes it is. We drive around looking for him and I should tell you, John has a very particular sense of style.
John Cronin: Yeah. Very particular.
Mark Cronin: He knows what he wants to wear and it doesn't matter what anybody else thinks. He'll put plaids and stripes together. That's OK. He's also very organized. So he'll know on Monday what he's wearing every day of the week, he'd lay these clothes out and his brother Jamie would come and say, dad, you can't let him wear that to school.
John Cronin: Yeah. He's not the fashion police.
Mark Cronin: John, don't tell me! He'd wear what he wanted to wear.
John Cronin: Right. One time with pajamas on.
Mark Cronin: Oh, right. You snuck into school with pajamas in a bathrobe. Yeah. That was great fun.
Peter Kersting: You're a troublemaker, John.
John Cronin: We, we did learn something about each other. You asked about the relationship. So, you know, working, we spend a lot of time together.
John Cronin: Yeah.
Mark Cronin: Back in the summer of 2017. Oh
John Cronin: Oh yeah. Mass Challenge.
Mark Cronin: We were very fortunate to participate in a business accelerator program called Mass Challenge. Uh, they were around the world, but we were participating in their Bo Boston program. So we had an ongoing business here. We needed to be here. We drive up on Monday nights, get up there like one in the morning would spend Tuesday and Wednesday there, and come back Wednesday nights. Well, while we were up there, they had lots of activities, including classroom sessions. So, John, he would go early and he would get good seats. And then he'd be texting me, dad, you're gonna be late, dad. You're late. Where are you?
John Cronin: Yeah. At this morning.
Mark Cronin: And you did it this morning to me. And then I am, I would in, and I'd sit next to him and I'd lean over to say something to him and he'd go before I pay attention. And so I realized that if we were in high school together, we were not gonna be friends. he follows the rules. And there's a little, I suppose this is an insight into our relationship in, in the town where we live in the village. Um, there, these parking lots that are connected and there's, there's this one pathway that connects two parking lots, but it's only a one way. So it's got big signs do not enter one way, but it's about 15 feet long. So I'll go the wrong way of this Adam, this drives John Adam, his mind, he gets so mad. And as a result of that, I look for every chance I have to do it the wrong way.
John Cronin:
Peter Kersting: That's that's great.
John Cronin: Alright, but we were talking about serious stuff. Start of the business.
John Cronin: Yeah. Yeah. Come on.
Mark Cronin: So, so this does relate to, um, to your idea of, you know, just go and roll with things. So, all right. He suggests socks and it struck me just intuitively that you know what? John loved these socks so much, surely other people would too. Yes. And a typical way to go then is, is to stop everything and prepare that business plan. Now, do your market research, your competitive analysis, do your operational plan, your financial forecast. Uh, that's not what we did. We said let's go the lean startup route, which is gonna get something up and going and we'll see, we'll see what the customers tell us. So we, we built, you had the name.
John Cronin: Yeah. I, I got a name I drew up our website and I tell my ideas.
Mark Cronin: We built a website on the Shopify platform. We got a little bit of inventory. We were bootstrapping. So you gotta be creative. You gotta make use of what you have. So the only marketing we did was to set up a Facebook page and I would take out my cell phone. We made videos. And who do you think was in those videos?
John Cronin: I am. I'm talking about socks, socks, socks, more socks.
Mark Cronin: That's how we got started. Right. Um, and he, but here's how that goes. Right. Uh, we tell this story and it all sounds so easy and, and smooth. What day did we open?
John Cronin: We opened on a Friday, three, seven ninth, 2016.
Mark Cronin: So we spent no more than three weeks preparing to launch this business. Um, we didn't know what to expect when we opened. And we were very fortunate. We got a flood of orders. On the first day, we got 42 orders and most of them were local, which made sense. Right. People knew us. And yeah. And so what'd we do with those first orders?
John Cronin: We do our home delivery.
Mark Cronin: We got red boxes. Yeah. We put the socks in the boxes and we looked at it and said, you know, it needs something else. So what else can we put in?
John Cronin: I put on a sticky note I wrote and I put in candy and Hershey's Kisses
Mark Cronin: We got bags of Hershey's kisses and poured them in right loaded up the car. And we drove around and John knocked on doors. And how'd the customers respond?
John Cronin: Customers loved it. They took a picture and posted it on social media around the world.
Mark Cronin: Word began to spread. We had customers ordering again, just to have John come back to their house. Yeah. You know, and there were some nights we were out after 10 o'clock at night, John's knocking on doors, you know, just John with your socks. Don't shoot. But you asked about the emotional connection. We had just some exchanges there that, you know, just, just, wow. You, I mean, floored us. We had one woman we had delivered to on the very first night. Yeah. And a week later we came back, she had ordered again. And then she said, you know, I have to apologize the first day you were here. I was, I was short with you. But my husband had undergone an operation that day. And I had just come back from the hospital. But I ordered again because seeing John made me so happy and feel so good that I just wanted to feel that way again.
Mark Cronin: And, and you know, what do you say? We had a woman. I remember this one. Well, it was over in Northport and the house was up on a hill. He had to climb wooden stairs to get up there. Oh yeah. John goes up, she comes following him down. Yes. And she comes down and says, you know, I, I just gotta thank you that, um, my mother had passed away over the summer and I've been very down and depressed and I wasn't even gonna celebrate Christmas, but I started watching some of John's videos and here I am, I've had socks and I'm happy. And I called my family and we're doing Christmas again. Well, what do you say? Cause you know, remember now we're just these knucklehead selling socks. Right buddy.
John Cronin: It does.
Peter Kersting: John. How do you handle having this big platform? You're like a celebrity. Do you like all the attention you get?
John Cronin: Yeah. Um, I just get stopped and recognized. I just get stopped at the airport.
Mark Cronin: He does get recognized. We'll go out. You can see, people start looking. We'll be at airports. People come up to him, want to get a photo with him.
John Cronin: Yeah. I went in the street.
Mark Cronin: You liked it right there. It was one time. Yes.
Mark Cronin: We were going. Our eldest son was performing some impro theater and we're in Manhattan. We're across in, uh, I guess from Google street. And as we're looking across the street, there's this huge SUV, this huge black SUV barreling down the street and we kind of scurrying outta the way. And he slams his brakes on and I'm thinking, oh, you know, I don't want to have any trouble. And a guy opens the door and he comes out and he's about the size of a small mountain. And like, oh no. And then he points, are you John? The sock guy? And he comes over hugging John, can I get my picture with you? And, but you like this, right.
John Cronin: I really do. I really like this,
Mark Cronin: But here here's the thing, Peter, this is something that we recognize, right? We're so fortunate to be able to do what we do.
John Cronin: Absolutely.
Mark Cronin: The business has created a platform where people will listen to us. Look at this. You've invited us on your podcast. You're taking time to do this interview. How, how lucky are we? And that creates an obligation on our part that we have to use it for something important that we have to take advantage of that opportunity. Cause we've in our little way, we've made a big promise. We've said you can build a social enterprise, that you can build something based on happiness and, and really on love on that. We can start. And we could talk about our five pillars. You know, that you can really care about your colleagues and treat them well, that you can really take care of customers, that you can build a business, hiring people with different abilities and build BA giving back into everything you do. And this will be a success. So we've told people that, well, guess what? Now we have an obligation. We have to keep living that at making that happen.
Peter Kersting: Wow. I think this is a great spot for us to take a break. This has been a really edifying so far meeting with John and mark Cronan of John's crazy socks. Next week. We're gonna be touching on more about that business and social mission and the social enterprise. Stay tuned for that next Monday on Alone with Peter
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37 Moving Abroad -Tips for Nomads and Expats with David McNeill
16 mai 2022· Alone With Peter
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Feeling at Home in the Netherlands and South Korea with Peter Kersting | Expat Empire Podcast 46
I actually had the privilege of being on David's podcast Expat Empire a few months ago to talk about my time living abroad. You can check that out here!
David McNeill Founder of Expat Empire
If you want to get in touch with David McNeill or learn more about what Expat Empire has to offer your move abroad check out the links below.
Website: https://expatempire.com
Podcast: https://expatempire.com/podcast-overview/
Facebook: https://facebook.com/expatempire
Instagram: https://instagram.com/expatempire
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/expatempire/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/ExpatEmpire
Please enjoy part 3 of our interview with David McNeill, Founder of Expat Empire
*Transcripts may contain a few typos. With interviews ranging from 1-2 hours, it can be difficult to catch minor errors.
Peter Kersting: Welcome to Alone with Peter. I'm your host. And on this podcast, you're going to hear interviews with entrepreneurs, artists, digital nomads, and people seeking personal growth. We'll dive deep into what set them on their journey, where they are now, and how their story can impact you, including any helpful insights if you feel inspired to take a similar leap of faith. No matter where you are on the journey, thank you for spending some quality time Alone with Peter.
David McNeill: We're back for the third and well, hopefully not final, but the last interview for now with David McNeill, the founder of Expat Empire. Previously on Alone with Peter, we talked about David's Japanese fluency, ad nauseam, and its fascinating stuff. Linguistics always gets me going. And I think for anybody who's interested in moving to another country, especially a country with a very different language and culture, you can learn a lot from that episode and from David himself.
David McNeill: So don't forget to go back and check out that first and second interview if you have not already, but right now we're going to talk about Expat Empire. We're gonna talk about what that is, who that applies to, and how David's attitude of saying yes to opportunity and being open to pivoting has led to his success in this business opportunity.
David McNeill: You're not gonna wanna miss out. At the end of this episode, we're going to be giving you some actionable, practical tips if you're interested in living abroad, working abroad, being out there, and seeing what the world has to offer. So stay tuned for that. All right, David are you ready, man? How's it going?
David McNeill: It's going very well. Yeah, I'm definitely ready. Love to talk about all these topics. It's near and dear to my heart, obviously, and share as much insight, knowledge, and advice as I can.
David McNeill: Yes, yes, yes. Okay. So first I'm gonna start with this question. How important has it been for you to learn to pivot and just take the lemons life gives you?
David McNeill: Unbelievably important. And I think it's probably, I would venture that listeners of this, or viewers of this episode and these past episodes would maybe look at my experience or the things that I've done and say, wow, everything worked out great or you know, this or that.
David McNeill: I'm very fortunate that it has in the big picture, but, I have gone over quite a tough road over the years. You know, my plan, as we talked about last time was to stay in Japan. At least initially, that was what I wanted to do. That was my big passion. I finally got there and it ended up only being an experience of two years, which is not the shortest, but it's also not the longest time. And that was again because I applied to 50 jobs there.
David McNeill: I did not end up getting the one that sort of worked out or that made sense for me and my career. And so I decided okay, time to move countries, languages, and cultures for an opportunity in Germany and Berlin. And so that's just one example, but you know, I've gone through something like six jobs in seven years. So I had, I mean we can get into it, but I had that. I had a job in finance, originally. I left that after a couple years, then I worked in San Francisco for, a tech company for a year. Got laid off from that, after coming back from China, which we talked about, then I went to Japan, worked there for two years and ultimately had to make the decision to move on. And then I worked three different jobs in Berlin in the three years that I was there and then came to Portugal for a new opportunity and got laid off a year after that.
David McNeill: So, you know, it's definitely been a lot of ups and downs. It's not always been fun, but it has worked out in the big picture. And I guess that's the thing about it is that it makes me realize that I can adjust. I can always pivot. I can change what I'm doing, what I'm focused on in the country, the culture, and everything else to make it work for me. But, it's not been an easy road and I don't want to have anyone come away from this thinking that, you know, stuff has just fallen into my lap. It's been a lot of work and a lot of disappointment and frustration along the way, but I've just kept that goal of staying abroad doing what I want to do, and continuing my career and the path that it takes to keep me going,
Peter Kersting: David, thank you so much for being honest with the audience, because I think, especially in today's world, we're getting these snapshots. We get snapshots of people's success, snapshots of their Instagram stories. And we forget that we're seeing this at 500 times speed. We joked about this in-between episodes that when you see somebody's road trip, you're not seeing all the stress and the sleep deprivation, and arguing with your friend, cuz he is backseat driving. You're just getting the highlights. Of course, that looks like a great life. And for you to be honest with us that, Hey, you know what? Yeah. I spent 15 years studying Japanese. I thought I was gonna be in Japan for a long time. This was the plan. And then it's just two years and I had to pivot? I'm sure at the time that was so disappointing and so hard for you.
David McNeill: Oh yeah. I remember how angry I was at Japan. Let's say like as a concept, like, I had sacrificed and invested so much for it. And that's what I got in return? That's how I felt. You know, you get rosier glasses as time goes on and things like that. And I mean, it is what it is. And obviously, I've been down the path I was supposed to be on. I don't regret it for an instant and you know, ultimately now I have my wife, who's Japanese and we speak Japanese at home, so you know, some people would say…
Peter Kersting: Hold the phone!
David McNeill: Haha, yeah.
Peter Kersting: Okay. First of all, I didn't even know until, two interviews ago that you're married for the last two years, but second of all, your wife's Japanese, that is… Okay. So anybody who's listening, stop jogging, park your car real quick. And just think about this for a second. Okay? This guy spent 15 years of his life studying Japanese, becoming fluent in Japanese, learning about the culture, and appreciating the culture. And there was value in that in and of itself by itself. Okay. That's, that's very important to remember this. It was passion that taught him to do that. Second of all, he went to Japan. It wasn't what he wanted it to be. And I don't mean that as the experience wasn't worthwhile, but it didn't last as long as he wanted it to. The job market didn't work for him the way he hoped that it would.
Peter Kersting: And he had to pivot and move on and you can look at that and say, that was a failure. And yet, hold on a second, you don't meet your wife if you don't go to Japan. If you don't study Japanese, you don't go to Japan. If you don't go to Japan, you don't end up in Berlin. If you don't end up in Berlin, you don't meet your wife. So for anybody, who's trying to wonder if the effort they put into something is worthwhile or not just shut up and think about that for a second. I love that.
David McNeill: Yeah. Thank you. And I, I feel lucky and fortunate, and all of those types of words. Whatever the right word is for how it's worked out. But I think maybe the key takeaway is not oh, you might find your soulmate from that, but more that at the end of the day, you don't know how these things are going to go. And then, I mean, as, I don't know, as I've kind of thought about it as I've learned, and as I've read, to be honest, it's this idea of, you need to know the what and the why, but you can't know the how. The how just happens. So for me, it was many things in life, but, what is, I want to go to Japan. Why? Because I love the culture. I love blah, blah, blah. You know, all that stuff. How? I have absolutely no idea, but I'm gonna try to figure it out.
David McNeill: And you know, one thing eventually leads to another. It may take longer than you expect, but it happened. And then subsequently with Germany, subsequently with Portugal, subsequently with the business. I've seen it happen time and time again in my life. It's hard for me to give up that sense of control, but there is a level of that that I think we have to do because, well, I'm not trying to get too spiritual and I'm not religious, but I will say there's, there's a strange way that these things tend to work out one way or another, for reasons that are outside of my understanding. I can leave it at that, but it's like you said, how would I have had any idea that I would end up meeting my wife in Berlin, a Japanese person, and then, you know, be able to continue using the language…And people love to say, oh, you have a Japanese wife. That must be why you're so good at Japanese. I have to tell 'em no, I studied my ass off to make it happen.
Peter Kersting: It's another one of those typecasts.
David McNeill: It's one of those things where, at least for me, it's important for people to know that I put in the work and I've been able to reap the benefits over time, but it's never been clear how it all comes together.
Peter Kersting: And yet at the same time when somebody just goes, "oh, you were successful because of blah, blah, blah." Or, "oh, you know, Japanese cuz of blah, blah, blah." You just gotta let that person think what they're gonna think. You know what I mean? It's like when you just go, "Yeah. I'm from California" and they go, "oh, lalalalala." And you're like, "yeah, I'm not gonna correct you. That's, sure. Yes. That's exactly right. Thank you. Now let's move on to a different conversation."
David McNeill: Yeah. You have to pick your battles. Yeah.
Peter Kersting: So we talked about it, how dangerous it is to just go snapshot, snapshot, snapshot. This is life and their life is so much better than mine and they're so much more successful or whatever. Or it's easy for them. That is the wrong way to see things because we're only seeing... even in this podcast, we're only seeing some of the highlights, and yet at the same time, being able to step out macro and go, oh wow. That led to that led to that led to that. I don't know.
Peter Kersting: I hope that this is kind of a little bit of an exploration for you as well to be like, oh wow. Yeah. My life has a direction and I have control over that direction yet. I don't know the details. I love what you said about that. I always think of this analogy as an audiobook narrator. You know the story's gonna go from San Francisco to New York. The end of the book is in New York. But, you're driving at night on the highway. You don't know what route exactly you're taking and you can only see about 30 yards in front of you because of your headlights.
Peter Kersting: And every 30 yards you get another 30 yards. Jon Acuff in his book Start uses the analogy of a staircase shrouded in shadow. You don't see where the next step is taking you. You just take the next step. I think that's a huge takeaway from this, but I'm digressing.
Peter Kersting: Looking back on it. How did this previous experience, all these pain points, all these things that like, Hey, you know, is it really gonna be worth it? How did these experiences prepare you for your current venture with Expat Empire?
David McNeill: Yeah. Wow. There's a lot to put in there, but, I would just say for me, it goes back a lot to this idea of being abroad and living this type of life and traveling and so on in whatever form it's taken or will take is so vitally important to me. And I feel like it's been an essential part of just me growing up and learning a lot and becoming self-sufficient and obviously yeah, meeting my wife in a different country, a foreign country to both of us. And I guess as I kind of zoomed out on my career as well,I mentioned, the career was super important to me and I tried. I did seven, or eight years as a product manager at different companies and this was an important drive for me as well to move again countries and so on to find these opportunities.
David McNeill: But what I realized was that my passion was not for my career in the end. It was just something that I could do that was interesting to me and paid alright, and was interesting. What enabled me to be able to move to some of these countries again and get sponsored for visas and things like that. Maybe it's obvious talking now, but in a way, again, it's that self-reflection, but just seeing the big picture of the important thing was going to all these different places and living this life and making that happen. That to me kind of came together in this idea of this has been so important to me. I know there must be kindred spirits and souls out there that wanna do this, that are thinking about it or will think about it or are scared to take the steps or don't know what to do, you know, any of any and all and I'm sure more of those types of concerns and issues that people are thinking about are going through that.
David McNeill: I'd love to be able to kind of help them take the next step, whatever form that takes. Maybe that's starting the process. Maybe it's actually moving. Maybe it's getting settled when you don't feel settled or going back to your home country or whatever it is. I mean all along the way if I can play some role in that and have some impact on that, then I think that would be really valuable to me. This is a topic again, that's so important to me and so close to my heart that it's just something that I again feel that passion for. like we talked about with studying Japanese.
David McNeill: That's kind of where it all came from. And out of all of that eventually came the name Expat Empire and a book. First, a book about my time in Japan and how I was able to find work there and studied the language and all the stuff that we talked about because I wanted to basically pay that forward to the next person that wanted to do it.
David McNeill: When I was growing up, when I was in high school and in college, I was looking for a mentor that could help me figure out a way to work in Japan. And unfortunately, I never found that person. And so now that I had 15, 20 years of experience learning the language and also finally had worked there and everything else, it was like, okay, I wanna put this together, make it my first product, my first digital product, put it on the market. And you know, it doesn't make a lot of money. That's fine, but hopefully, the right people will find it and it can help, you know, inspire them, and give them some tips and pointers that I learned the hard way over the years to get there.
David McNeill: That's awesome. How was that received, that first ebook about Japan?
David McNeill: Well, it was received well, I mean, definitely I've gotten a lot of good feedback on it, but I would also say what I learned from the process is that, well, let's say the route typically to go to Japan, which a lot of people it's, for example, what you're trying to do, I think with, you know, teaching English and so on, that's a very common route and well-trodden path, or however you say it. You know, people kind of know the process and frankly, you know, those companies or governmental organizations. They make the process fairly straightforward. They help you along the way with it and figure most things out. So I think it's a great way to go, but what I also found is that, again, it only happens with self-reflection and talking to a lot of people, but I'm just not normal in this way.
David McNeill: and I did, I took a very strange path. I think with Japan, a lot of people go to teach English or be a translator and interpreter if their language skills are at that level. Or they go as a senior executive or they go and work for a foreign company like I did, but those people are relatively few and far in between. So it was learning from a product standpoint that I think it's helped a lot of people that are in a similar boat and with similar goals and desires as me, but at the same time, what I've actually found in my business is a lot more people wanting to move to Europe, for example, for one reason or another. So I think, you know, Japan, Korea, China, like a lot of, you know, different even from a place like Bali, like tons of people are trying to get to Bali or Thailand or these places.
Peter Kersting: There are so many places.
David McNeill: Yeah. But if you go up to China, Korea, Japan, these are just harder in many respects. I mean, usually requires some language fluency, um, you know, more foreign culture, more stark contrast, you know, to Western cultures I think, than some other countries. And so I think that's what I've learned as well. And that's also informed the business, but as a first product, yeah. I'm super proud of it. Like I'll stand behind it 110%, and I'm really proud of the fact that I put it out there and that some people have, you know, managed to find it and, give good feedback.
Peter Kersting: If someone was interested in reading your ebook, where can they find it?
David McNeill: Yeah. So it's pretty much on all of the ebook platforms. It's on Amazon. It's on my own website, expatempire.com, but it's also on Barnes & Noble and, iTunes books and all that good stuff. So pretty much I tried to put it anywhere and everywhere so that people can find it with what's best for them
Peter Kersting: Kinda like the podcast. ,
David McNeill: That's what we always do, man. Yeah.
Peter Kersting: Which we didn't really touch on that earlier, but of course, you are a podcaster as well. Okay. So I wanna, I wanna backpedal here a second. And like I said, I would love to have you back on the show some time to maybe talk more about your insights, about someone wanting to move to Japan or do something like that. And just maybe talking about right. Cultural stuff there, but I wanna backpedal and ask you to say in your own words, what is Expat Empire? You kind of touched on it, but what is the target audience who would get the most value from that?
David McNeill: Yeah, absolutely. So I think that's evolved over the years. As I mentioned, it started with the book, and then you talked about the podcast as well. So that was the second product and still releasing episodes with that had you on there recently. Uh, so hopefully it'll be out by the time that this episode's out, but, um, you know, from there it's, it's grown, uh, and evolved, uh, adding videos and courses, blog posts, uh, all this different content about living and moving and working abroad. And the real goal is ultimately to help anyone to move anywhere and to make living abroad, uh, a more attainable dream for more people around the world. And so we don't do that only through our content, although that's a big part of it, but also through our consulting services as well. We can help people think through some destinations abroad that would be a good fit for them, whether countries or cities, we can work through the coaching one-on-one or researching the visas that would best fit your situation.
David McNeill: If you're set on a certain country or the steps you have to take to be able to move abroad and to get settled into that particular country, or of course, finding local jobs as I've done and helping with your applications and your job search strategies, or even transitioning into remote work. So, thinking about those opportunities as well. And so, as you said, what type of people would best fit this? Again, we try to help anyone move anywhere. It tends to be that a lot of our clients are Americans trying to move to Europe is just a general profile, but obviously, a lot of people fall outside of that. That's probably biased by one thing or another, you know, of course, me here as an American in Europe, in Portugal, I think that's a big draw, but, in terms of the other. Otherwise in the profile, I mean, it's people that wanna get local jobs, it's remote workers and digital nomads, it's retirees, entrepreneurs. And of course, if you don't fit into any of these buckets, we're happy to chat as well. But you know, that hopefully gives you some direction and idea of the type of people that we're working with.
Peter Kersting: Expats and nomads from various walks of life. Okay. We've talked about it enough times that I want to ask you, how would you define digital nomad?
David McNeill: I think a digital nomad is essentially someone who can let's say work from anywhere from, you know, as long as they have internet access to a computer. And you can be a digital nomad within your own country. I mean, uh, in a way it's not all that different from working in the cafe down the street, you could sort of say this person's digital nomad because they're able to do that or remote worker. I mean, these, these terms get kind of, you know, mixed up here and there. And I think in a sense we're still trying to figure out what it all means, but, um, but also, of course, that could be outside of your home country or in another city in your home country. But, you know, a lot of people are talking about, of course, people working from, from different, uh, countries and things like that.
David McNeill: And typically people do that through, you know, getting a tourist visa, staying some amount of time under the tourist visa limits in different countries and then moving on. Um, and so it's kind of a life of travel and work. And honestly, I think one of the challenges there is just trying to balance those two. Um, you know, and so what other people find is, for example, more of a quote, unquote expat or whatever you want to call that is somebody, at least as I think about as somebody who stays past the tourist visa, who's really moving to a country. And typically that involves, you know, getting along, stay visa and figuring out your tax residents and getting your social security and healthcare and all of that stuff set up in that country. So it tends to be a lot more of an intense process and that's what we've gone through. As well as you Korea and me in these countries as well, but also quite rewarding to have that home base abroad. There's definitely a spectrum here. It's not black and white, but I think that's kind of how I think about it in terms of the differences
Peter Kersting: Whether you're interested in moving abroad, teaching abroad, retiring abroad, or just traveling at all. I hope you've been finding this interview both informative and entertaining, and I hope you've been finding Alone with Peter, both informative and entertaining. And if you have please think about leaving a review on Apple Podcast, Stitcher, or Spotify… Wherever you get podcasts. Not only does it help me get more listeners to the show, but that feedback is valuable for me as I continue to grow the show into something that is more useful for you.
Peter Kersting: A great way you can do that is by leaving a review or following me on Instagram and letting me know what you thought of a particular interview. If you wanna hear more from David McNeill I would love to have him back on the show, but let me know what you think. Get in touch with me on Instagram. @alonewithpeter and show him some love. All right, let's get back to the show and to those actionable, practical tips with David McNeill of Expat Empire
Peter Kersting: For the person perusing expatempire.com, what you will notice is that David has put a pretty heavy emphasis on that spectrum. So if you're the type of person who is looking to move around a lot, sounds like you have some advice that you can give there. When David just said medical and, long-term visa and things like that. If that's something that's percolating in your ears. Then that's really important to remember too. And I wonder if we could spend this last little bit of time we have with you David, just trying to provide some actionable practical tips for the audience.
Actionable, Practical Tips for Moving Abroad
Peter Kersting: You've gotten a lot of stuff to chew on here, right? Are you gonna stay long-term? What is the visa process? Like? Some people can just jump and go. That's, I'm a little bit more like that. Some people they need to really know what's going on. How do you plan? How do you do an international job search? These are all things that you're able to help with. And I wonder if you could maybe start by what are some of the most common problems or obstacles or solutions, whatever one you wanna pick from mm-hmm that you notice your clients need help with. And if there is some general advice, cuz of course there's a spectrum here that you can give people when they're considering
David McNeill: Honestly, it so much depends on their profile. Like I said, it depends on what country they're coming from. What's this in ships that they currently hold, where they want to go to and their profile as far as whether they're trying to be digital nomad or a remote worker, but living somewhere long term or, you know, finding a local job or retiree an entrepreneur. So it's hard to give, uh, you know, broad advice, but I would say like you talked about and, and you know, going through kind of these decisions, it's really a question of, do you want to be on the road all the time to some people that sounds great, but actually, you know, I think if you think about it a little bit longer, , you'd realize that there are some challenges there. It doesn't mean it's not, you know, as, as with anything that's challenging, you know, maybe those are the things most worth doing, but you know, it takes time thinking through, you know, do you want to do that?
David McNeill: In fact, if you were to do that, what would you do to make money? Where would you want to go? Um, you know, and how would you pick those spots? And especially in this situation with the restrictions and regulations, anyway, I'm not trying to get into the whole world of it depends to answer every question, but more just recognizing these, these things that people need to think through. And of course, we're happy to help them do that, but they need to whether with us or on their own or with somebody else just need to kind of really figure out a plan and what the end goal is. I think because the last, I think the last thing you'd wanna do is to move to a country and not have really thought it through, um, because of all the cost and all the time and the headaches that come with the bureaucracy or just to, you know, leave everything behind, jump on a plane the next day and then realize like, you know, it's not about, oh, I don't have this thing or that thing as long as you have your legal documents, but it's more about is this the lifestyle that I want, do I want be hanging out at hostels all the time?
David McNeill: Some people thrive on that for me, I don't. Again, it's also a time and a place thing. I did a bunch of hostiles in Europe which was kind of the end of my hostile days when I was traveling around. But as of now, I can't imagine going back to that at this stage in my life. So it's just all of these questions, thinking through them and focusing on the purpose and the end goal; what you wanna do with it. That will take you pretty far.
Peter Kersting: But there are so many factors. And as you said, knowing what you want to get out of it is very important. So what I'm gonna do right now, and this is by no means an exhaustive list, but I have at least two archetypes that I'm thinking of. And maybe we could just go from their approach.
Peter Kersting: So let's start with the first because the people on this show are interested in travel. I would say they're interested in living abroad and they're also interested in entrepreneurship. As we mentioned, there's a variety and then artistic and creative things, right? So let's start with the perspective of somebody who's an entrepreneur. Somebody who's interested in being in business for themselves and is a little bit more like yourself or me in the sense that the job is supposed to fuel their goals, which is more to do the things that they want to do with their lives.
Peter Kersting: So maybe the job, maybe it's their own business or maybe it's a job that allows 'em to do what they want to do, but one or the other, they are choosing a location for more long term. Let's use that as the archetype here and right. What are some of the things that let's start with this? Um, what visa is something they're gonna be gonna have to be thinking about, right. Like how do I get a visa for the place I'm gonna be, but what are some of the emotional, mental, and physical stresses that they're gonna run into that being more prepared will help with? Let's assume it's Europe for the sake of this, this conversation.
David McNeill: Wait, so just to make sure I'm clear, you're asking about the immigration stuff or you're saying more on the mental, emotional, or you want both? I just wanna make sure I understood the question.
Peter Kersting: No, uh, I don't know. It's a good question because we don't have a whole lot of time, but let's just,
David McNeill: Well, I can, I can hit both. I just wanna make sure
Peter Kersting: Maybe this is somebody who's, they're not ready for the visa. They're just trying to do the prep. Yeah. And they wanna know, is this something I can do? Right. What should they be preparing for? And then assuming that they did go, what are the things that are gonna make them successful there? How about we do it like that? Yeah,
David McNeill: Absolutely. I think what's really important, especially, uh, for an entrepreneur, let's say that they already have their business, you know, set up in the United States, for example. Well, they're just gonna have to think, especially as they're looking at long term, you know, immigration plans and things like that, to be able to think about, can they manage that business from the United States and the income that comes from that to be able to qualify for a visa in another country, or are they gonna need to open up a foreign subsidiary there or are they gonna actually have to, you know, maybe close their business in the United States and open a new one in the new country to be able to qualify for startup or entrepreneur visa. So, you know, that's just getting just the tip of the iceberg as far as the immigration concerns. So you can see already that there's a lot of stuff to figure out from a technical standpoint, but when they actually in, you know, move over there and let's say they're successful in game, the visa and everything I think to be successful in that context is definitely to of course, um, you know, if they do have to set up a business there to be aware of their requirements and the legal things and everything else and dealing with the bureaucracy, which varies by country and some are, some are much easier than others here in Portugal.
David McNeill: Uh, it's not so easy. It's not so fast and it is typically done in Portuguese. So you definitely need some good help with that. And I think in general, for people looking to move abroad, I mean, I know I'm, in this business and it doesn't mean that you have to work with, uh, exed empire or anything like that. But I think it helps just to be open to the fact that it's gonna cost money to move. Um, it always costs money. You have to think of it as an investment instead of just hemorrhaging outta your pocket. But I think it's also worth just hiring someone to help you with it. And I mean, again, that can be, can come in all shapes and forms in all different types of people and companies. But I think, um, you know, what I've learned in all of these moves is that when we even found out that we were coming to Portugal, it was like, okay, we need someone to help us with the visas.
David McNeill: We need someone to help us find a house here. Like we just, we just jumped to that because we know what a headache it is and how much you can potentially lose in terms of time and sleep and money just by trying to, to do it the cheap way doing on, on your own. It doesn't mean you can't be successful, but, uh, you know, a lot of people find that to be harder than they expected, especially if it's a first time around. So I think you learn more of the value of these types of services and help down the road once you've done it a few times and you've, you've got, you know, the, the frustrations to, to go with that experience. Um, but yeah, you just have to be adaptable. You have to be flexible. You know, you have to be open minded, but ultimately as well, like willing to work within the confines of the local culture and business culture to be able to be successful in your company there.
Peter Kersting: Yeah, that's really good point. And as we said before, it's gonna be so, so dependent upon the individual person's circumstances, what their business is, whether or not they're just trying to find a job there or whatever. Um, so that's really important to keep in mind. This is, this is all generalities we're talking about here, but, um, I I'll just say from my experience, there is an aversion sometimes to working with somebody else, you know, like I' just figure it out, but you gotta ask yourself how much, how much, like there there's so much to figure out. Like sometimes it helps at least to talk with somebody to get an idea. So the fact that you guys do timeline planning, you know, and, and things like that, just to sometimes you try to jump into something and you don't realize how much goes into that. Like, how do you find a place in Korea? Like if I wanna rent a place in Korea and I don't speak Korean, even though I've got the job, like is my business that I'm working for setting that up for me, like otherwise, how do I figure that out? And sometimes having somebody to help you, whether it's a friend you've made or a business, like your own is gonna be just like so much weight off your shoulders to figure that out.
David McNeill: I think a big piece of it is as well is like, you don't know what you don't know. So you think I, oh, I've got a good, you know, idea of the things I have to do. But if you don't do something before you leave your home country or you don't do something early enough in the, the place you're moving to, then that could have, you know, rippling consequences and things like that. So I think just being aware of what to watch out for is, uh, value within itself.
David McNeill: Yeah. Like you said, if you don't know, you don't know, and if you're trying to narrow down locations, something like this is really helpful. I mean, I'm just, I keep thinking back to this Confucian, uh, quote here, that's like there are three methods we can learn with, do you know this one, but the three methods of learning wisdom?
David McNeill: I don't think I know that one. No.
Peter Kersting: First by reflection, which is noblest. Second by imitation, which is easiest. And third by experience, which is bitterest.
David McNeill: Well said.
Peter Kersting: When you were talking about learning things, the hard way that is exactly what it is. It's bitter, it's hard. You learn a lot from it. And guess what, somebody I'm more willing to work with someone like you probably in the future because of how much I've learned on my own, cuz I know how much can go wrong and how like exactly. Especially if you know, whatever. So just, I'm not trying to sell your business. And you're not either necessarily right now, but just for someone thinking about this stuff, sometimes just having a conversation with somebody who can kept an idea of how much there is going on can really help them choose the right spot for them. And, and that's what we want.
David McNeill: Exactly.
Peter Kersting: The other thing I wanted to touch on really quickly. And maybe we'll say this and then, and then we'll wrap up for someone who is trying to really make the best of their situation in another country. What are some of the things that you've found in your experience? Either working with people who are a little bit more detail oriented and used to things being done their way, how do you help them succeed? Because I think the flexibility makes it a lot easier and some, some people just, they need their structure. So I guess the question is two part, if I'm a structure person, if I'm a planner, if I'm like someone who needs that to be happy, how do I create that in this new environment? And then two, how do I step back enough to say like, Hey, part of what I'm doing here is changing up my structure and being okay with being a little more flexible.
David McNeill: Yeah. It's definitely a good question because I know I've experienced the challenges there. I think part of it is of course, in a sense how you set up your own life. I mean, there, there's only so many things that are under your control, right? And the culture, the, the prevailing culture and the place that you're living or in your workplace is not something that you can easily, uh, control. And probably it's not really worth trying to control too much unless you're the CEO or something like that. But, um, I would say, I mean, for me, at least as a person who does love structure is just having my to-do list. I've always got that going on, um, personal in business and I've got my different calendars and all synced up to, you know, all different services and devices and everything. So I think I can maintain a lot of my sanity in different places and always changing places because I have that core to go back to and what a sort of system that works for me.
David McNeill: And that's always evolving. Maybe it's different tools, maybe it's, um, you know, a different way of doing things. I'm always trying different stuff, but I know kind of what works for me now. And it's always just building on that. And so I do that from a personal standpoint, just to keep that stability, despite everything else around me, changing and for folks that are having, you know, trouble adjusting to their new, you know, environment, new place, I think it's good of course, to not expect people just to reach out to you, but you need to do a lot of the outreach and that's not always fun. Like we talked about, maybe it's always the same 20 questions, but at least if you're making an effort, hopefully you'll find that core group of people. And if you meet them at an event, what I always tell folks is if you meet somebody, uh, at an event at a meetup or this or that, then I always try to get their contact info and then meet up with them soon after, but in a separate context.
David McNeill: So it's not just that they're your meetup friend or your beer friend, but I think what's core is that it's easy to meet people to have a beer with or go for coffee, grab some food. But the problem to me is like, or the challenge is to actually find people that are your close friends like that you can really share and confide in and, you know, trust and everything else. And I think what's really hard in those early days. Like I said about, you know, going to the, the Berlin club and all that stuff. The day I got off the plane from Japan was like, I didn't really much keep in touch with those people after it was just that, you know, a little bit, but it was like you meet those people at the beginning and you have to be very picky about the folks that you really invest in because I don't know, it's just gonna be better over time.
David McNeill: And I don't think many people like to feel like they're the only ones that are making an effort in any type of relationship. So I think you kind of have to go back to that and, um, you know, be, you can always, you know, talk to someone or therapist or whatever. You can be a bit more introspective at times for me when I need a break from everything, I go to the movie theater, because it's just like, especially if they're playing movies in English or something, even if, hopefully it has something you can understand in some level, because it's just a different environment. And I, I love films as well, but it's like just a way to kind of refresh, but I would at last just sort of say, it's a possibility that that's not the right place for you. And doesn't mean that you need to make that decision lightly.
David McNeill: In fact, you should take it very seriously and not just, you know, you should give a place a year. Like we talked about before, you should really, uh, invest the time because it's not gonna happen overnight. And you need to invest in making those friendships and relationships and, uh, you know, meeting people, but also your apartment and your job and, you know, the culture and the food and everything. So there's all that I'd say, give it a year, but if it's not happening after a year, a year plus, and you're not able to adjust and things like that, then you could always look for that next opportunity, that next place, um, you know, it doesn't mean you even have to go back to your home country if you don't want to, which has been my experience. It's just moving along to the next place. So that's been my experience. And I would just say, you know, give everyone should give it good thought before making a big decision, but keep, keep in mind that, you know, if it doesn't work out, it's not the end of the world, either
Peter Kersting: A lot of really good advice there. And, David, I wanna thank you again for taking the time to spend with us here on Loma Peter. And maybe I could ask as a final question, if there was any one piece of advice that you could give to someone who's interested in doing a business abroad or just living abroad, you know, in general, what would be the one thing that you would say to somebody who is like, Hey, you know, I wanna do what you're doing.
David McNeill: Yeah. I think just pulling from my own experience, I would say, keep the dream alive, like talk about it to other people. Um, it might not happen for you immediately. For me, it took a couple years to finally get to Japan, despite many efforts to do so. Um, so it may not happen in your timeline, but keep the dream alive, tell other people about it, make it known. And it's amazing sometimes what that will bring your way. I mean, maybe you're the friend of a friend or your aunts. Somebody knows someone who's in Japan or whatever country you want to go to. And those opportunities can come your way. Um, it's just amazing how that can happen. But again, I think going back to what I said before, we might know the why and the what, but not the how so. Um, I would just, you know, and maybe it's talking to the right folks and getting into those connections, tapping into your network, whatever it is that helps you do what you wanna do. Um, you know, and, and, and for, to that matter for me, I thought maybe Japan wasn't for me. And I, you know, I have just gone to China for a few months. So I was also looking at stuff in China as well. You know, you have to be flexible, but it's like as long as it's driving towards some sort of goal and you're, you're keeping, you know, the possibilities, the realities in mind, I think you can make those steps.
Peter Kersting: Yeah. Being willing to pivot, even if you have a really strong plan is so important. David, if somebody wants to reach out to Xed empire or to you directly, how could they get in touch with you? How could they find out more about your services?
David McNeill: Yeah, absolutely. So you could definitely reach out to us at expatempire.com. We have all our blogs and links to everything there, of course, information on our services. You can schedule a free 30-minute consulting call there, but we'll talk through your situation. See if it makes sense for us to work together, but most importantly, to provide value to you and help you think through your next steps. We also have an ebook there that you can sign up for. Sign up for our newsletter to get that. It's a top 10 tips for moving abroad. And it's really based on my years of being abroad now. And ultimately a lot of the takeaways that I have outside of what we've shared in these episodes. So we'll let people check that out and we're on all the usual social media channels as well.
Peter Kersting: That's fantastic. David McNeill from Expat Empire can't thank you enough for being on and I'm really hoping we can get you back on. Maybe if people give us enough love for this episode and see if we can talk more about, your experience in Japan and also for those of us that have a significant other, what's it like to try to travel or to live abroad in that circumstance? Cause it's a whole different ball game when you've got a ball and a chain.
David McNeill: I'd love to. Thank you for the opportunity. I hope folks out there like it and I'd be glad to share some more thoughts.
David McNeill: That's gonna do it for our interview with David McNeill of expat empire, what a wild wild ride, listening to David's experience as an expat and a traveler as a business owner, entrepreneur and podcaster. Oh man, it gets me fired up talking to people who do this for a living, whether you consider yourself a creative entrepreneur, digital nomad, traveler, you name it. Thank you for spending some quality time alone with Peter and for checking out the podcast, don't forget to rate, review and subscribe on your favorite platform. So you never miss another episode and we will see you next time.
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36 So you wanna learn Japanese? Language tips and adapting to change with David McNeill
9 mai 2022· Alone With Peter
So you wanna learn Japanese, huh? It's a daunting task, but one David McNeill of Expat Empire tackled quite effectively. If you're looking for language learning resources specifically for Japanese, this episode of Alone with Peter is chalk full of them.
On season 2, episode 19 of Alone with Peter David McNeill of Expat Empire talks about his journey towards mastering the Japanese language, how he moved to Japan, and some of the struggles he encountered living in a foreign culture as an expat.
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David McNeill Founder of Expat Empire
If you want to get in touch with David McNeill or learn more about what Expat Empire has to offer your move abroad check out the links below.
Website: https://expatempire.com
Podcast: https://expatempire.com/podcast-overview/
Facebook: https://facebook.com/expatempire
Instagram: https://instagram.com/expatempire
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/expatempire/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/ExpatEmpire
Japanese Language Resources Mentioned in this episode
Here are some Japanese resources mentioned in the podcast episode. Happy language learning!
Genki - https://genki.japantimes.co.jp/index_en
Japanese Pod 101 - https://www.japanesepod101.com/
Anki - https://apps.ankiweb.net/
A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar - https://www.amazon.com/Dictionary-Basic-Japanese-Grammar/dp/4789004546
A Dictionary of Intermediate Japanese Grammar - https://www.amazon.com/Dictionary-Intermediate-Japanese-Grammar/dp/4789007758
A Dictionary of Advanced Japanese Grammar - https://www.amazon.com/Dictionary-Advanced-Japanese-Grammar-English/dp/4789012956
Please enjoy part 2 of our interview with David McNeill, Founder of Expat Empire
*Transcripts may contain a few typos. With interviews ranging from 1-2 hours, it can be difficult to catch minor errors.
Peter Kersting: Welcome to Alone with Peter, a podcast for entrepreneurs, artists, digital nomads, and people seeking personal growth. We're back for part two of our interview with David McNeil, the founder of Expat Empire. What is Expat Empire? Well, you'll have to stay tuned to find out.
Peter Kersting: Right now. We're talking with David about Japan because surprise, surprise. David is fluent in Japanese, and if you looking at him, you would never guess it because he is the wightest Mofo I've ever seen he's from the Bay Area, fluent in Japanese. So tell me about that. How did that get started for you because obviously in the previous episode, if you wanna hear about it, you guys go back. David has family who have had interesting ties to Japan and it's kind of sparked an interest for you, but how did the study of the language start? That is a whole other ball of yarn.
David McNeill: Yeah, absolutely. I got interested as we talked about through, honestly at least on a personal level, obviously there was the, there was the, you know, family elements and things like that that were always in the background, but also just getting into the Japanese culture through the anime, the manga, the video games, the stuff that's been popular over the years. And at least for me, the gateway, the entry was, Dragonball Z which I think was popular for a lot of kids of my generation. And I think what it was though was that I saw it and I was like, this is so cool. And I love this, but then it also was me in the back of my mind thinking, you know, it'd be really way cooler would be to watch this without subtitles or to watch it in Japanese.
David McNeill: I guess I was watching it in English at the time. Of course. And I think that just was one of the things that sparked the interest. There were a few other things like, I, I don't know, it was just something in the back of my mind and I kept, it's one of those things where if you have it in the back of your mind, you keep seeing it pop up here and there. And it just kind of grew into something that I was actually kind of interested in pursuing.
David McNeill: It was around those years where at least my dad was like, you should get a hobby, you should like develop a skill on something. And I was like, yeah, that's a good idea. , sure, dad. I tried, you know, playing music and I couldn't really stick with that. And I've tried sports over the years and I mean, I did stick with some of those over a couple years, but it just wasn't my passion.
David McNeill: And so I was like, okay, language. And I was just never that drawn to learning Spanish or French or German, like most, you know, a lot of kids do in school, in the us. And anyway, Japanese was kind of sitting there in the background. And, um, my mom was working also on the side for a book selling company at the time. And there was a discount, uh, some promotion going on for the sellers. And I looked through there and I'm like, oh, a Japanese book and cassette tape set. That sounds pretty good. Get me that. And then it took a couple months and a couple tries for me to stick with it. But then it became a thing where every day, honestly, every day for 30 minutes a day, I sat down and did it. And then I did that every single day at 12 years old,
Peter Kersting: Every day for 30 minutes a day. Hang on before you keep going, because we're gonna talk about this for a second here. Okay. I'm sure the listeners may know, but if they don't Japanese, at least for a native English speaker is probably one of the most challenging languages you picked one of the hardest ones you could do because there's three different alphabets, right? It's character based. There's not, it's definitely not. It's definitely not Roman stuff and the pronunciation and everything else is gonna be as foreign to you as possible. Did you realize how much you were getting yourself into when you chose Japanese?
David McNeill: So not no, no. I just thought it would be cool.
Peter Kersting: Does anyone ever,
David McNeill: I think, I think it's one of those things that maybe if you have the, the perspective, if you're, I don't know if you've learned languages before or you're older and have more demands on your time, then maybe there's that point where you're like, oh, you know what? I don't know if I just, I don't know if I want to go down this path and I'm glad that I did, but it was one of those things where, I mean, again, I was truly, truly passionate about it and I did not think, of course, I thought, well, it's different from Spanish and it would be easier just to take that at school. But I think passion, at least for me, has always played a big part in this and keep sticking with something and wanting to do it. So I think with Japanese, I had that and I didn't have the context of, well, this is one of the hardest languages to learn.
David McNeill: I mean, there was a point where after you learn the first two basic, um, writing more, more basic writing systems with around 50 characters each, where you go into the, the congy, the Chinese, uh, originally Chinese characters and there's for fluency, you need at least basically to learn, at least 2000 of them is what they say. There was that point where I was like, do I really want to learn congy or not? Because that is such a huge investment and a huge, you know, thing to embark on. And I thought about it for a while. Honestly, I was on the fence, but it came down to, well, if I'm really serious about this language, the only way to keep improving, the only way to get fluent really is to learn at least how to read the congy. So then once that was done and you learn your first couple, then it's just years and years of effort after that.
Peter Kersting: Okay. Hold up though, by the timing that you got to Kanji, how long had you been invested?
David McNeill: Um, well, so I started, uh, it's hard. I'm trying to think exactly when that was, but probably, you know, I started when I was 12 and I did that booking cassette tape set a few times. I did a school at the community college, uh, did a class at the community college. And then I started taking after school, um, lessons up there in Los Angeles. And probably then that was when I was around. I don't know, 14 or so, so probably 14, 15. I decided, okay. I mean, if I, if I'm gonna keep going, then I need to do this. It's kind of that thing. I mean, especially at least in a Japanese school, if I was just doing it all on my own, maybe, you know, you'd find a way around it some, some way, if you just wanted spoken fluency, but if you wanna study it properly in, in after school classes or in language programs or in university, then you have to do it. So it's just kind of that decision.
Peter Kersting: This is something I know a lot of people are gonna be interested in because if you're interested in living in Japan, it really, really helps to know the language. And as you kind of hinted at right now, it's not something you can exactly pick up overnight. So I want to touch on a couple things and I would love for you to elaborate. Okay. First of all, I love that you said you have to have passion because I think that is key for any long term goal, right? If you don't have passion for it, if you don't have a end game reason for it, you're not gonna learn. Also, you said you spent 30 minutes a day every day for how long?
David McNeill: Um, well I think probably the way to put it is I'm sure I did many more than this over the years, but there's that thing about learning something for 10,000 hours to become a master at it. And I don't know if it, I there's, there are these kind of numbers of hours that it would take to become fluent in a language that's done by some government agency. And I'm sure it's off of the, you know, it's not 10,000 or something, whatever they say, but, um, maybe if you do it in the most efficient way or things like that, it could be less. But I really, uh, you know, it was 30 minutes a day for nine months with that course. And then I started again, started taking after school classes and you know, it was the point where, when I was at university and studying it there, where not only was I taking it however many hours per week in my classes, but on top of that, the homework at home, I was listening to podcasts on the, like walking around the campus, going to my next class. I was watching the, the shows, playing the games, you know, just, uh, reading books, you know, I was doing like, it was way, it was way more than 30 minutes a day,
Peter Kersting: Constantly listening to it and consuming it.
David McNeill: Yeah, it was, it was more active. Yeah.
Peter Kersting: I would really love to hear, first of all, if you were, let's say it's me. Um, cuz I am interested in learning Japanese. In fact I hopefully will move to Japan next year. If all goes according to plan, if I'm going like, all right, David, you did it. You're as wide as I am. how do I do this? First of all, do you have some resources? You mentioned podcast, you mentioned books on tape. What are some things you would recommend to people who are like, Hey, you know what, I wanna start dipping my toe. I'll do 10 minutes a day. Maybe it's not 30, 10 minutes a day though, what should they do?
David McNeill: I have a couple of things that I would recommend. I don't have my, you know, full resources and I'm not sure where the best place to start is, but um, in general, so the textbooks that a lot of people use and maybe, you know, some people say they're not the best or this or that. And maybe they might be better in a, in a classroom setting, but they're called Genki, Genki textbooks. Yeah. Which is sort of like healthy or excited or, you know, what happy or whatever that'd
Peter Kersting: G E N K I, if it was anglicized?
David McNeill: Exactly, so those textbooks, um, but I would say, so the podcast side, I don't know if they're still doing it. I mean, I haven't listened in, in a long time. I think they probably still are, but it was called Japanese pod 1 0 1,
Peter Kersting: Japanese pod, 1 0 1.
David McNeill: I listened to that for years and they have all different levels on there as well. And of course you can pay for the premium, but you know, you get extra stuff, but essentially, you know, it's a podcast you can listen for free. And then what else?
Peter Kersting: There's a hit on Spotify at least. Yeah. Japanesepod101.com as well.
David McNeill: I would strongly recommend anyone learning. Well, anything that takes repetition, especially language. And in fact, this program was built by someone who was trying to learn Japanese. Although again, it's not just for Japanese language study, but it's called Anki
Peter Kersting: A N K I Anki
David McNeill: Yeah. And this is a great, well, it's essentially a flashcard tool, but it does a space repetition, which means that you can say how well you remember the card and then it will bring it up to you, you know, four days later versus in an hour or in a minute, uh, based on, you know, how well that you remember it. And so it's just, I would always just go and if I found a sentence in a book or, you know, something I wanted to remember or practice, I would put it in there and then just go and review those flashcards every day as well. I mean, again, there was so many ways that I was trying to tackle how to learn this language. And I was fortunate to have a lot of great teachers over the years, but those are some of the tools that I used.
Peter Kersting: Genki, Anki, Japanesepod101.
David McNeill: Yeah. And it adjusted as I, you know, went up the ladder as well. So anyway, that's the short version.
Peter Kersting: Yeah. I appreciate that. And I'm gonna dig a little bit more, but not too much more cuz I, I think we're, we're gonna keep moving, but for those of us who are interested in how you did it and maybe to be aware of, you know, what are some of the things that might be different for us versus you? How important was structure for you in that learning environment? How important was having a professor or a really well defined podcast or something because some people are really good at self-study and other people like myself.
Peter Kersting: For example, when I was running Korean, talktomeinkorean.com was a lifesaver for a couple reasons. Number one, it's a Korean guy who created the show, but he's also really fluent in English. So he explained it in a way that I understood why they say what they say. And for me understanding why helps me remember and helps me know when I learned what a word means. I would remember it better. And I found in my experience as a teacher of English as a second language as well, that's hugely important to have some kind of context. Right. So that's something I would like to know how important was structure? How much was it like, thank God I had someone who explained grammar really well to me beause if I just jumped into vocab, it would've been chaos?
David McNeill: Hmm. Yeah. I do think it depends on people's learning styles and what works for them. I, I would say that another resource, especially, well, whether you're doing self-study or not, but a good one for self-study it's, it's a bit different from your typical book, but there are three volumes it's dictionary of basic intermediate and advanced Japanese grammar. I think that's essentially the title. I don't remember if those are the exact words
Peter Kersting: It's called dictionary of?
David McNeill: Basic Japanese grammar and then there's the, there's also intermediate and advanced and they're thick volumes. I mean, that's the thing, it's a hard, hard language, but
Peter Kersting: There's no easy route.
David McNeill: No, well, frankly there's no easy route. I mean that, that much you can say for sure. I mean, and as you said with most things, um, and that sort of 10,000 hour type thing, like anything you kind of want to do well, uh, will take a lot of time. But, but with Japanese, that was a really good resource for me, that dictionary of grammar, because essentially it would explain how to use it and use it in a sentence with all, you know, books in English except for the examples. And then it would also compare and contrast how to use that grammar point with another grammar point that was similar. And so it was really nice to be able to see that all in written in con writing in context. But I think for me, I'm the type of person I'm just, you know, I'm just wired to kind of be the go-getter and I'm good with self-study and I was always the person at school.
David McNeill: I mean, , this makes me sound lame and I'm not using this to brag but just to give an example, I was always a person at school who, like, I remember having a report due in a month's time. I would get it done a week early and just be like finalizing it for the last week. Whereas, you know, most other folks, frankly end up kind of doing it last week or the last minutes. So that's just gives you a sense of my style and my drive and my work ethic, which is, you know, doesn't come naturally to everybody. So for me, uh, a lot of it was again, like I would just put on the podcast, I would take notes, make flashcards on the go, you know, so I'm glad I had the structure and people, mentors and teachers to, to turn to, um, that helped me out along the way and taught me a lot of things. But I also had that inner drive, which I think is really important for continuing it for this many years.
Peter Kersting: Yeah. That's so that's so important. And I wanna highlight something and then I want to maybe create an overview of how just like, if we're gonna give a timeline of how your studies have gone up to moving into Japan, because I know for a fact, without even asking you that moving Japan was when your fluency really started. I, I just can't believe otherwise. I
David McNeill: Don't know about that. Really.
Peter Kersting: You were that good before you were get, how often were you able to talk to somebody in Japanese before you went to Japan?
David McNeill: I had pen pals. We had, uh, we had, uh, Japanese exchange students come over. I did immersion programs. I was doing the, I mean, I was doing the full thing, man. I, I took, I got the second there's a now at, at the time there were four levels, uh, of the J L P T, which is a Japanese language proficiency test. And so that's the sort of nationally recognized exam for fluency. Um, I got the second highest level when I was in university and then I barely missed the first highest level, which eventually I got when I was in Japan. So of course when I was in Japan, I got better, but I went to Japan with, I mean, again, I studied this intensely for years through university as well. So, you know,
Peter Kersting: , I stand corrected, I stand corrected, but with a caveat because you did a full immersion program before, which I didn't realize, and that I guess was my point.
David McNeill: Yeah, it was like a summer camp for a month type thing. And I also went back as a counselor as well when I was in university. So yeah, I mean it, this was a passion among passions, you know what I mean?
Peter Kersting: Fair, fair enough. I'm just saying the immersion aspect is when you really test your legs, at least from my experience mm-hmm, , um, you cannot learn more when, until you have to for, for a lot of people anyway. Um, but, but, okay, so let's give the overview of like 12 years old, you pick up the cassette tape,
David McNeill: Right.
Peter Kersting: All the way up through level one.
David McNeill: Sure. So trying to keep it short, uh, I would say,
Peter Kersting: And, and when you do it, sorry, cuz what I'm trying to illustrate it here is you started with self-study then you did this, then you did that cuz it, obviously it ramped up, you weren't just doing it all on your own the whole time. Right?
David McNeill: Right. Sure. Yeah, absolutely. I would say I started out first at 12 with a book and cassette tape set like we talked about, I did that for it's a three month set, program, course. And I did that over nine months. I did it twice. So I took longer than three months each time, but I did that every day for 30 minutes to review it and went back over it and so on.
David McNeill: And then we moved to Los Angeles. Uh, and so then there were a lot more opportunities. And at first for a few months we were living in Santa Monica. So I went to a community college there just for, uh, one class just to take the Japanese class, um, beginners, you know, entry level. And of course I was the youngest person there. I know like 13 in this course with also like 60 plus year old people there that were interested in the language.
David McNeill: So, you know, I did that for just a few months, but then luckily found a afterschool program to go to that I did, I think it was two days per week for like three hours in the afternoon. And so I went there and um, you know, was with a class there of other high schoolers, did that for two years. And then I also did that immersion program in the summer, uh, after the second year. And that was only a month, but it was so, you know, super intense basically, you know, really tried to do it as immersive as possible and then came back and thought, well, I can't really do this high school Japanese class anymore because I've like gone too far kind of past that. I was already quite ahead because I'd done that study before and again, I was very committed to studying it.
David McNeill: Yeah, so , I would sort of sit out in the class in that way anyway, but then it was like, uh, I found, found a tutor locally and so, um, Japanese woman and we just would even an hour per week is all we did. And of course I did homework and stuff like that, but even an hour per week, it was already better than two, three hours, twice a week at the high school class because it was just speaking it all the time and you know, she was correcting me and we would just talk about all different topics and I was able to like, it wasn't that you get, you get that direct one-on-one experience is gonna be totally different. And um, so from there I also did some speech contests, uh, basically like full Japanese, you know, five minute speech, um, about different topics preparing for that for months and you know, getting, you know, placing in some of that.
David McNeill: And then, uh, then I went to Japan for the first time finally at 17 and that was a a month, uh, summer program where we did home stay. We did traveling around sight seeing, but also language study. And I came back from that experience, knowing that I wanted like Japan was even cooler and better than I thought. So it was like, okay, how do I make this a thing? How do I, how do I try to get there someday? And then, uh, I decided to go to school in the United States again to university of Texas Austin eventually, but I decided to major there in business international business at first and then moved into finance later and then also did a do a double major in, uh, Japanese. So east Asian languages and cultures.
Peter Kersting: Yeah. You double majored in Japanese as well. This is something for those of you listening is going to be consistent. That Japan is a catalyst for David. Yes . And, and I mean to highlight this because it is fascinating to hear, for example, you had the drive to find some local person, you to teach you tutoring on the side. And that makes so much sense on one level, but on the other level, it's like nobody would think to do that. How did you find someone? Was it hard?
David McNeill: I'm trying to remember how it was. Yeah, I, it was someone like one of the, I don't remember how my mom or it was me or I don't remember how it actually happened, but it was someone who had, uh, children, well, even older than me, so younger or older than me, but still teenagers that were in the same school district. So close enough to be able to go to actually closer than the Japanese school was. But, um, I, I, I, you know, I definitely would say a big part of it was just being in the Los Angeles area. I mean, I can find that in mobile, Alabama. Right. So, I mean, it was, it was a good, you know, that, that was a privilege to be able to be there and have that opportunity. And obviously my parents to be able to, you know, support me in that, in that, um, endeavor and to drive me around and things like that before I could drive. But, um, so I had all of that, but it was definitely just, and yeah, trying to find the best way to continue the growth and to, and to change the way of studying it based on my progress. Yes.
Peter Kersting: Which is why I'm really happy that we gave that overview because clearly as time progresses, having those other people who know more than you do, and that's something that will translate to success in any area that you're trying to work in, recognizing how much hard work do you have to put on your own before you go find somebody else who knows how to do it better than you. Um, and, and also the go-getter attitude. I I'm just this, it tells you how you learned Japanese, but it tells you a little bit more about you too. So I just wanted to touch on that. And I'm glad you mentioned your parents because I was gonna say mm-hmm, the support from your parents was probably huge, right?
David McNeill: Yeah, definitely. I mean, they were supportive pretty much from day one. I mean, , I was always watching dragon ball and whatever else with my dad anyway. So I think, and you know, like I said, they had that, uh, he had that experience with, um, the exchange student in Japan and so on. So I think there was just always a love for that type of culture and background. And I think, yeah, they were just super supportive and you know, my dad, again, like I mentioned, the previous episode, told me about, uh, finding a hobby and I think he was glad that I found something and something that he could also, he hadn't studied it, but he could relate to it in a, in a way that he might not have been able to with another language or some other type of hobby. So
Peter Kersting: I'm geeking out over here because I'm just guessing your dad's a big nerd too. Like just a visual FX guy. And he was down to watch Dragonball Z with you. I'm pretty sure like a lot of your interests came from him.
David McNeill: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I, I never got too much into wow. But he's still playing. Wow. So
Peter Kersting: That is so funny. Okay. Yes.
David McNeill: Yeah. He's definitely,
Peter Kersting: This is the picture we're painting here. Okay, great. So we're gonna move on from Japanese fluency and we're gonna get back on the train of your journey to Asia and, and how that moved from there. So sure. We, we spent a decent amount of time about the language because the language is a huge obstacle for a lot of people. In that regard, you got your first tasted Japan in 2007, you said,
David McNeill: Uh, so let's see, uh, 2005. And then I went back in 2007.
Peter Kersting: Okay. 2005, 2007. Now we mentioned in previous episode how you had traveled around, but then you decided to move to Japan for work mm-hmm . So you moved in 2014, you worked at ASIC. What were you doing at ASIC?
David McNeill: Yeah, I guess to kind of give the lead up there. So before that I was working in San Francisco at a tech company as a product manager. And, uh, I also had an opportunity with that company not to get into the, the details of it, but I also had an opportunity to go to Beijing for three months. And so I came back from that really excited to go back, you know, to Asia or to go abroad, really, because that had been my dream and it took some years to make it happen. I had had a couple years job in, in finance before all that. Um, but I came back from that ready to go back to China. And then I got laid off, uh, out of the blue actually right the day, the morning after I was told that we would be going back to China, I was, uh, laid off, which was a, a big, uh, blow to say the least.
David McNeill: But I came out of that thinking, I wanna find a way to get back abroad. And I wanted to that to be decided by a company that I was working for. And so I basically, um, started, I took a trip around Europe and I know there's a lot of stuff to get into here, but I took a, a train trip around Europe for two months. And while I did that, I was also taking interviews in Japan and China. And by the end of my trip, uh, shortly after I got the offer to, uh, to go to Japan. And so I was doing a, actually a growth marketing job for Asics at first, but, you know, I was working with a product manager and eventually I moved into the product manager's role about a year into the, into the job when the other product manager went to another job. So that was kind of how it all came together. And that's what I did, but, um, but Asics is a Japanese company. So I was working a lot of people don't realize that, but this is a Japanese company. So I was working at a Japanese company in Japan, but with a very global team, uh, a lot of, uh, English speaking, you know, foreigners and expats there. So, um, yeah, , that's the thick picture, I guess.
Peter Kersting: How much were you prepared for the culture cuz obviously you had the language on your belt, but how much was the culture something you had to adapt to?
David McNeill: Um, I had had, you know, many, uh, yeah, years, as you said of studying the language and also of course studying the culture at these different programs and I've traveled to Japan a few times and uh, studied that in the university. So I had that context, but there, there was still certainly a big adjustment and like, like I mentioned, even though I was working in quite a global setting, despite being a, a otherwise traditional Japanese company, I still felt in the workplace there, there's definitely a strong feeling of, uh, the Japanese sort of hierarchy and influence coming from the headquarters and things like that, even to our small like satellite office and sense in Tokyo. Um, because there was even a, just for context, there was a bigger Japanese, um, sorry, Tokyo office for the company, uh, in a different part of Tokyo. And so we were even separate from that.
David McNeill: And, um, we were kind of off doing our own global thing. And so it was a really privileged, you know, role and position to be in, in fact, despite my Japanese fluency, none of the interview was done in Japanese. It was really, it was, it was not required to be able to speak Japanese. That was just sort of a benefit, obviously, I guess, as I applied, but that was, um, that was the situation, but we'd still feel from the headquarters and, and so on this, uh, you know, influence from the hierarchy and the way that things are done and not trying to step out too much. And you know, it, there was definitely an adjustment period there and also even just on a personal level, just trying to make friends and things like that. It, it was harder than I thought it would be. Um, you know, from the outside,
Peter Kersting: How were you received as a, someone working and then also what were some of those challenges?
David McNeill: Yeah. Uh, I think I was received, received quite well and I think most, generally, most people are. I mean, that might change based on where you're from or the things that you've done, things like that. I mean, one, honestly, one thing I found strange and it's just something that yeah. Was a, I had to get used to was at first I would tell people that I actually had spent a couple months in China, like I mentioned, um, I, and I thought I had a great experience there, you know, very different culture and everything else, but I had a great time. And when I would tell people that in Japan, like is sort of like a, Hey, I was doing that, you know, some 6, 8, 12 months ago, whatever it was, um, then they would be just sort of like, oh, you know, like not really into into that.
David McNeill: And so it was like, I had to kind of learn how to, you know, show maybe again, this type of thing of, oh, it's more about the us. They're more interested in that, but then this question of, oh, are you from LA or New York, you know? And it just, you kind of had to do it in a way that, uh, like, yeah, they might accept people differently, frankly, from where they're from. And I mean, I suppose every country and every group of people like that around the world is that way. But in general, once I, you know, learned those things and learned like the second after they, you meet somebody and they, you exchange your names, uh, then it's, then it's how old are you? I mean, you probably experienced that in Korea as well. Yes.
Peter Kersting: And are you married?
David McNeill: Yeah. yes. There were many, uh, aspects of this or when did you, you know, well, I guess they didn't worry too much about when I graduated, but these types of things can get, you know, are like important or like what's your blood type was another one, which is like, I don't even know what my blood type is. So
Peter Kersting: For those of us who, who maybe don't they're like, why would you ask the question? Okay. Why, why is that? I think I know, but please.
David McNeill: Yeah. So I think as far as the age, and, you know, maybe when you graduated or who's the, it's basically like the hierarchy of who's the Simi COHI is what it's called or like the senior person, the junior person,
Peter Kersting: Simi and COHI and Simi being the, the older more hierarchy based person and COHI being the lower.
David McNeill: Right. And there's, you know, maybe it's the formality of the speech that you use or how you interact with somebody that would be changed by that. Or, and then there's the, the blood type thing, which is almost more of like a, I think it's more like a kind of, um, Aquarius or this type of astrology type of thing. That's more an Asian thing in nature.
Peter Kersting: It's not like a, it's not like if, if you go to St. Louis, Missouri, and you're, if somebody thinks you're from around, there they go, uh, what, what high school did you go to? Cause then they can, uh, cause they, cuz they can figure out, oh, you're from this part of town. And that means you're probably from this background and stuff. It's not like that
David McNeill: Right. Uh, well, I mean it's, it's definitely, you know, trying to kind of understand people on some level through something that, you know, I, I could tell someone what high school I'm from, but I don't think it would say a lot about me, you know, it's sort of that thing where it's like going, tell, give someone a stereotype, but
Peter Kersting: The blood type might yeah. It might say, oh, okay. I, I understand.
David McNeill: Right, right. I guess it's more general than a high school, but it's also, you know, uh, yeah. As much as you believe everyone born in the same month is the same thing.
Peter Kersting: Yeah. Yeah. Well I'm I just give the, the, the comparison because that's a very Midwestern thing that doesn't happen where I'm from but my, for my parents, yeah. They would ask where'd you go to school in St. Louis as a means of understanding them.
David McNeill: And I, I think to your question around, you know, adjusting to the, to the business front, I, I think it was just things like how decisions are made, um, whether or not you're actually involved in decision making process, what's the process to get something approved. And typically in Japan, it's a lot of paperwork. It's, it's stamps it's faxes. It is not as, I mean, maybe it's certainly progressed since I was living there, but it's not as technologically advanced as I think the robots and, you know, television would lead us to believe. And I've learned that about Germany as well. So I mean, you know, many countries, every country looks some way on, um, you know, in popular culture and might be different, but that's one thing about Japan that was definitely challenging was navigating the dynamics of that across other foreigners, across Japanese people, which may or may not have spoken English. And how did, how did like the paperwork process? And it was just, it was truly painful throughout learning all of that. And even by the end, I would say, I didn't know it that well, but it was just like, you know, you kind of tried to avoid it as much as possible.
Peter Kersting: Yeah. Okay. Let's get, let's zoom out a little bit here because we could talk about Japan all day, the culture all day and who knows maybe, uh, people are really enjoying this episode and they ask for it. Maybe we'll do a follow up specifically about Japan. Cause I think we could talk about that for quite some time, but we need to, we need to start doing a little bit of a zoom out here. So before we move on completely, I wanna say, first of all, you mentioned the hierarchy, that being a key part of that's Asian culture in general, but definitely comes in play in Japan. Tell me about reading the air. What is that? What's the Japanese word for that? What does that really mean? And how does that come into play?
David McNeill: Yeah, so that's, kuuki wo yomu, which basically is reading the air. But essentially what that means is being able to understand if you're supposed to do something and not supposed to do something or how, especially saying something, um, based on, you know, what you're feeling in the room. I mean, it's probably kind of hard to describe, but it's just sort of that like some like someone who can't read the air well would say something kind of awkward or embarrassing, or just like not appropriate to the situation if they had sort of paid attention to the surroundings and how people were interacting. And it's sort of like picking up the vibe in a sense, if I'm trying to westernize, it is kind of like you walk into a room and it's like oddly quiet, or you can sort of tend if you, if you notice there's some little energy or lack thereof or whatever it is, and you might not want to go into that empty room and just scream something , I'm giving an extreme example, but, that's the idea,
Peter Kersting: That's an extreme example that they would probably think, what is the Japanese word for foreigner? In Korean it's waygooken,
David McNeill: It's gaikokujin or gaijin
Peter Kersting: Gaijin right. gaikokujin or gaijin
David McNeill: Well, gaijin being the, you know, uh, it's like foreign, foreign gaikokujin being foreign country person, or, which is the nice way to say it or gaijin, which is more slang or simple, which is just foreign person.
Peter Kersting: Yeah. I always found that term foreigner to be so like abrasive, but I had to realize that that doesn't mean negative thing necessarily to people it could be, but
David McNeill: Yeah, yeah, not necessarily. I mean, there's definitely that undercurrent though, that you experience in Japan of, you know, just being, being an outsider. I mean, unless you're Japanese
Peter Kersting: Yeah. As a ggaikokujin what were the things that were expected of you and what were things that were not expected of you?
David McNeill: that is actually a really good question because , um, I think one thing that I found really difficult to take in was the fact that despite having spent, you know, more than a decade up to that point 15 plus years of studying the language and doing all that stuff that we talked about and language tests and everything, you'd still get this reaction of, like, if you could speak three words, they'd give you a round of applause. And it's like, can we, you know, at first it's kind of fun. And then five, five times later it's like, guys like, dude,
Peter Kersting: I'm on, can we one
David McNeill: Move on? Can we move on? No, can we just, you know, yes, I can use chop six. Yes, yes. I like sushi. Yes. Yeah. You know? Yeah. It's like, all right. It's, it's a funny game of 10, 10 or 20 questions where it's like, oh, do you like Japan? Do you like sushi? Can you use chop six? Oh, your Japanese is so good. Oh, how old are you? You know, it's like, okay, can we just like skip all that and get to the good stuff?
Peter Kersting: , that's a personality coming out a little bit there, man, because I always thought that was, I mean, I totally get where you're coming from. I think I feel the same way at a certain point. But for those of us who are just listening, they're just, there is a certain expectation and it's not necessarily very high in some situations.
David McNeill: Yeah. Yeah. I mean it, well, what I would say to com but compare and contrasted is so going to Japan, I already spoke Japanese very well. I was, you know, uh, as we talked about doing all that and I was really focused on it and my goal had been to work in Japan for so long and I finally did it. It was great. And then to kind of get treated that way at first is it was definitely frustrating after a while. And I, I mean, to me, it was also crazy to think that, like I saw people there, like my coworkers that had been in Japan 15, 20 years, and they're still getting treated like that obviously by people that don't know them. I'm not saying, you know, uh, people that know them with, but, but that just because of the way you look and because of the expectations, this is just what you get every day for 20 years, unless you go to the same spots over and over. Whereas I would say in Germany, there was an expectation that when I got there that I would speak German and yet, uh, and, and because I didn't, then it was actually quite difficult. They're
Peter Kersting: Like, what? You don't know German? Why are you here?
David McNeill: Yeah. Yeah. And the, just that tone let alone the difference in my fluency made it such a different experience and culturally, and just in terms of the way that I was treated in it, you know, or, or accepted or everything else,
Peter Kersting: I can tell that that was a point of tension, not necessarily in a negative way, but for you to kind of come to grips with, and this is key for anyone living in a different culture. How do you step back from that? And then look at it from someone else's shoes, because I'm sure that's what you really had to do in order to not be upset by it every time.
David McNeill: Yeah. I mean, I, I certainly wouldn't say that I was a Saint about it, but , I mean, I'll be honest about that too. I'm not gonna say that. I was like, totally understanding every time, but I, it's hard. It's hard. Um, I think that's why it's important to make good relationships, good friends, good connections that aren't, aren't gonna, you know, that you don't have to do that every time. And obviously there's, there's that time and there's always an ongoing process of if you wanna make new friends and you need to go through that process again. Um, but it does, I think over time and that's what happens with a lot of people, even if they're living in their hometown, they might not always go out and try to meet new people. Right. They kind of have their circle. And so I think after those first, you know, months or years, then maybe you become a bit more, you know, in your, in your group in your ways, and you just, maybe you don't engage or reach out as much as, as you did before.
David McNeill: Um, but there can be many reasons for that. Um, I think otherwise, I mean, you definitely do have to just sort of understand that it's coming from a good place. I mean, I've experienced that in each of the countries and even here in Portugal, so many, and, and they do it in English, mostly fluent English, which is amazing. And, you know, I, I always feel bad about not being able to speak Portuguese that well and knowing how good I spoke Japanese, you know, but it's the same thing of, oh, you moved to all these countries or you're from the us, like, why would you come to Portugal? Do you love it here? How do you like the food? And, and it's meant so well, it's meant so, and I, I, I appreciate that, but at the same time, I'm also like, you know, I wish I could just like record and play back my answers because I know it's like, oh, track number three.
David McNeill: Okay, here we go. And, and I hate to put it that way, but I think even if somebody's traveling the world, for example, a digital Noma tourist or whatever they wanna do backpacker, they're gonna go to the hostile and they're gonna get the same 20 questions that, you know, where did you go? Where were you before? Where are you going next? Where are you from? And I think it's the same thing. I mean, it's just gonna happen everywhere. And I think you just have to find maybe be on, be on your own or find your group of people and decide when you want to venture out and, and deal with those questions.
Peter Kersting: I think something that you mentioned there is worth pausing on. And then, uh, and then man, I spent a lot more time on the, on the Japanese language stuff than, than I anticipated, but interesting. So we're gonna have to accelerate through some you're you're
David McNeill: Your own biases are coming through, which is fine.
Peter Kersting: Oh my gosh. Well, no, because I mean, yes, of course, but also, also I think for the audience, it's gonna be something that if they're interested in living in Japan or Korea or China or any of these places, it's gonna apply very similarly. Oh, totally,
David McNeill: Totally. I think it's great. I was just, I'm just messing with
Peter Kersting: You. Yeah. Yeah. I understand. I understand. And I deserve that, but uh, to come back to what you were just saying, it's really important to number one, notice people or people, every spotty gun, you went, okay. Like they're asking the same kind of questions. Like, yeah. It might be able to different version. You're not used to like why blood type versus where did you go to school? Uh, or like, what's your job. But we always ask these like surface level questions to figure somebody out. And so I've always found it's helpful to be like, okay, how are we similar? And because there's obviously these huge differences that you can pay attention to, like, we're always focused on those as a human beings. But I think the fact that you mentioned people in Japan are asking me the same types of questions as people in Portugal ask me, and it's the same frustration that comes with it. I'm more than just like whether or not I like to use chopsticks or whether I like Portuguese food. Like, can you think of a more interesting question? is the same frustration, right? The more you can notice those things is like, oh, they're just another person. And now we just need to figure out where our conversation clicks or how we can understand each other. That's where it's at right there. Agreed.
David McNeill: And I mean, I think, uh, I think I have, you know, as we've been going through like an interesting and, uh, potentially long-winded story of my background, but, but in a way what's, what's a challenge is everyone asks you where you're from. And obviously they know where you are because I'm in front of them. So they know I'm in Portugal, for example, but, but I, but there's, and they know I'm not from there, uh, or they quickly find out. So then, but, but because I've also got these other countries that I have experience in, like, I don't, I don't want to go off on a monologue on them about my whole history and background, but at the same time, I also wanna, I, I try to point out that it's like, yeah, I, I may be American by citizenship. I may have been born there. I may have been raised there, but this does not define me either. You know? So it's a, it's a challenging balance where I don't wanna be explaining for five minutes, my whole thing, but I also just don't wanna be typecast into a certain role either.
Peter Kersting: Yeah. And that's so important to remember for yourself and for others, right. Is like, man, like I'm so much more than just a dude from San Francisco. Like we talked about four, like I could tell them I'm from the bay area. Right. And they're, and they're gonna go, oh, okay. That's what I wanted to know. Oh, cool. California sunshine. And you're like, all right. Yeah, that's true. Fine. Whatever, but that's not who I am, man. Exactly. And, and you're gonna feel that on so many different levels, but yeah. Yeah. That's, it just ties back in really well. And, and the more you can be paying attention to that stuff, the more you're gonna succeed. All right. So let's wrap this. So fluent in Japanese, you moved in 2014, you worked for a six. All of a sudden that contract is ending mm-hmm okay. You're confronted with this shutdown of your job and the choice to move to Boston or to relocate somewhere else. At this point, you've lived in Japan for two years, three years,
David McNeill: Right. Uh, it'd been in total. It was two years. So obviously we know I ended up leaving, I guess I can walk, walk us through that. But, uh, I think at the point where I was making decisions probably a year and a half in,
Peter Kersting: Okay. You're year and a half in, you're trying to make this choice, where do I go? I don't wanna be back in the states. You ended up in Berlin. Mm-hmm after applying for over 50 jobs in Japan. And I'm sorry, I'm just kind of going through this cuz we just need to rock. Yeah. But over 50 job applications, Japan, you wanted to stay sounds like how did you land on Berlin?
David McNeill: Yeah, I did wanna stay there in Japan and uh, I did try over like a 10 month period to make it work. And I guess the way that I ended up in Berlin was really, I had, um, taken this two month trip around Europe in 2014 before I ended up in Japan. And during that time I remember going to Berlin and I absolutely loved it. It was one of those places that among, uh, a 19 city trip in two months, which is not many days per city, it was one of those few cities that really stuck out to me. Um, and I always thought I wanted to go explore it more. And then when I was in Japan, I, I met some people that were originally from Germany or from Berlin. And they were just talking about how there were, you know, startups there, there were English speaking jobs, they were very welcoming to, you know, foreigners and so on.
David McNeill: And so I just thought, well, that's a place that's on my, my bucket list to live. I really wanna dive in there and figure it out. So, I just reached out into my network and thought, you know, it's not really working here in Japan. So let me see if I could find anything there. And uh, yeah, long story short, the first person I reached out to after 50 jobs attempting, uh, to get another job in Japan, 50, you know, applications. Um, the first person I talked to in my network that was in Berlin and applied through her. That was, that was that job that I got. So, you know, as far as seeing kind of the opportunities in front of me and just realizing like, okay, I could keep banging my head against the wall here in Japan. I love this country. I've tried to, you know, I've, I've done what I can to try to make it work.
David McNeill: It doesn't mean I couldn't find something else. Um, I was focused on my career at the end. So of course I could try English teaching or I could try, you know, this or that. There's plenty of people that have made that work great for them. But for me, I just wanted to continue in that product management path. And it seemed like the best way to do that was to then have to move, uh, countries and move quite a ways across, uh, the world. So it went from a plan to maybe visit Berlin and see a network and take interviews there to a one way when I got that offer and I just went straight to Germany from there.
Peter Kersting: Okay. I love that. That's a great place for us to wrap part two of Alone with Peter, our interview with David McNeil. Oh my gosh. There's so much to unpack if you guys are enjoying this episode with David, as much as I am and you want to have him come back in to just like vomit all over us about Japan and the culture. And like, if you're interested in teaching there or finding a job there, let me know, leave a review, rate the podcast, give David some love. And uh, I would love to have him come back in. I'm hoping we can make that happen, but that's gonna do it for this episode of Alone with Peter, next time we're gonna dig a little bit more into that idea of taking what's been given and being open to the opportunities and how that led to the birth of David's business expat empire, which is for those of you interested in relocating abroad, a must checkout. All right, next time on Alone with Peter, don't miss out every Monday. See you then!
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35 Embracing Culture and Mastering Japanese with David McNeill of Expat Empire
2 mai 2022· Alone With Peter
Moving abroad is exciting but also overwhelming. What do I pack? How do I find a place to live overseas. Will my job sponsor my visa? The questions go on and on and it can be hard to find the right answers.
David McNeill of Expat Empire has been there. He knows what it's like to need stability in a new environment and he's on a mission to help others with their move abroad. In Season 2 episode 18 of Alone with Peter we talk about David's childhood, his attitude surrounding travel and cultural exchange, his move to Japan, and how he became fluent in Japanese,
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Feeling at Home in the Netherlands and South Korea with Peter Kersting | Expat Empire Podcast 46
I actually had the privilege of being on David's podcast Expat Empire a few months ago to talk about my time living abroad. You can check that out here!
David McNeill Founder of Expat Empire
If you want to get in touch with David McNeill or learn more about what Expat Empire has to offer your move abroad check out the links below.
Website: https://expatempire.com
Podcast: https://expatempire.com/podcast-overview/
Facebook: https://facebook.com/expatempire
Instagram: https://instagram.com/expatempire
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/expatempire/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/ExpatEmpire
Please enjoy part 1 of our interview with David McNeill, Founder of Expat Empire
*Transcripts may contain a few typos. With interviews ranging from 1-2 hours, it can be difficult to catch minor errors.
Peter Kersting: Welcome to Alone with Peter. I'm your host, and on this podcast, you're going to hear interviews with entrepreneurs, artists, digital nomads and people seeking personal growth. We'll dive deep into what set them on their journey, where they are now and how their story can impact you, including any helpful insights if you aspire to take a similar leap of faith. No matter where you are on the journey, thank you for spending some quality time Alone with Peter. Today, we're talking to someone who crosses a lot of those lines. I'm excited to have David McNeill on the show for a few reasons. David is the founder of Expat Empire, a business designed to inspire you to move abroad, giving you the tools you need to make that plunge swimmingly. We'll talk about how he got started and what Expat Empire has to offer you and your international journey.
Peter Kersting: David is also a podcaster, traveler, and I call him a digital nomad, but we'll get into what that term even means. He's lived in Tokyo, Berlin, and now Porto, Portugal, and he's fluent in Japanese. We'll focus quite a bit on David's experience with Japan as it's an integral part of his story and something I'm personally invested in. In part one, we're talking about David's childhood, travel, cultural exchange and Japanese studies. Stick around because this is going to be a really fun three part interview, concluding with some helpful tips for you if you're interested in doing something similar. So without further ado, let's get into our interview with David McNeill of Expat Empire. Well, David, that's kind of a weird tease, but I want to get started by saying how the heck are you, man?
David McNeill: I'm good. I'm good. Thanks so much for having me on the show. It's a pleasure to be here and talk about my story, and I know we've talked about yours as well. So a lot of things that we have in common, and I'm sure past that we'll cross, hopefully physically one of these days, but definitely at least in spirit.
Peter Kersting: Dude, I would be so excited to meet you in Portugal for a beer, which brings me to my first question. Tell us where you're from originally, but cat's out of the bag, where are you right now?
David McNeill: Yeah, so I'm originally from the United States, and as to where there it's a little hard to pin down, but I was born in Northern California. So maybe that's the easiest answer, but we moved around growing up a lot. But now I am based in Porto, Portugal or actually just outside of Porto, the downtown in an area called Matosinhos, which is more of a beach town vibe that we've got going on over here. Yeah, I guess that brings me up to where I am today, but definitely I'm sure we'll dive into all the good stuff in between.
Peter Kersting: We are definitely going to dive into a whole smorgasbord of things, because the way the Alone with Peter is designed is we spend a lot of intimate time with our guests. We do three part interviews. So today in this episode we're going to be getting into your backstory. So I hope you're ready to talk about some stuff, because I want to get an idea of who David McNeill is. I think in order to do that, we have to talk about who, not who you were, but where you came from.
David McNeill: Yeah.
Peter Kersting: So tell me a little bit about what it was like moving around so much, because it sounds like you're from San Francisco but that's not where you stayed all the time.
David McNeill: Right. Right. So yeah, we moved many times growing up, mom, dad and my sister, younger sister, mostly because of my parents' jobs one way or another, it wasn't military or anything. But my dad was working in visual effects for motion pictures for films for a while. My mom was a teacher, but she has a PhD and got a position at university and things like that. So for her job, we moved sometimes for my dad job, we moved sometimes. Yeah. I think that was a big part of just my experience growing up, obviously having to deal with that, but also learning that I could kind of pick up my life and go make new friends and get comfortable in different environments. Mostly it was the West Coast and the south, actually spent most of my years growing up the childhood in Alabama, in mobile Alabama or nearby there, where my grandparents are as well.
David McNeill: So that's a big change from somewhere like California and then also even going back there to the Los Angeles area for high school. So huge cultural shift even within the United States, and then from there it was like, okay, where for college? For me it was like, there's a lot of great schools here in California, but I would like to go somewhere totally different. So for me it ended up being the University of Texas at Austin. I applied to all out of state schools, but ended up going there and yeah, just ultimately continued my career in different cities in as well. So I think it had a huge impact on my desire to experience something different, and eventually that became certainly getting abroad as well.
Peter Kersting: I always laugh when I ask that question, where are you from to somebody who's a traveler because I find this always a caveat. It's like, well, technically I'm from this place, but I'm also from here.
David McNeill: Right.
Peter Kersting: Is that how you feel?
David McNeill: Yeah. It's always hard to pin down and I want to give an honest answer, but I have to talk like that for a while to try to explain it and even then it doesn't really get, like I missed a couple places when I just gave that overview. Especially when you're a broad, because I think because now I would view my home, for example, here in Portugal, more than I feel connected to United States. But of course I'm from there, I'm not Portuguese, I'm not local. Then, there's the other weird aspect of it where at least in other places, especially in a place like Japan, but frankly all over that I've lived and I've visited. When you say the United States, they're like, "Great. So are you from New York city or are you from Los Angeles or are you from San Francisco?"
David McNeill: Basically, it's like you have three options, and luckily I could say at times San Francisco, I could say Los Angeles, but there were also times where I wasn't living in those places and it's hard to know how to respond in a way that they would really be able to get it. Of course, the US is huge and geography is pretty much hard for everybody. But it's nice to be able to say I'm from a place that they can connect with on some level, even from the Hollywood movies and TV shows. But may not be, of course that's not an authentic view, but it doesn't also gather all of my experience even within the US.
Peter Kersting: I'm smiling because I remember from my experience living in Europe, that it felt like if a European word to draw a map, before I say this, Europeans are actually pretty good about knowing where other countries are, because they're surrounded by so many different countries. The US is almost like a bunch of different little countries together, but it's so big that it's just a weird difference, right? But when Europeans, I feel like if they were going to draw a map, it would be California and the middle is Texas, the bottom right corner is Disney World, and then the top is New York. That's what people know. Then, if you're saying, you're from some place like Arizona, I don't know what that is. Maybe they go, "Oh, Cowboys," or something like that.
Peter Kersting: But you made a point earlier, I don't know how much people really reflect on this enough that the US is so different culturally. Already in your childhood, traveling from San Francisco to Mobile, Alabama to Los Angeles and the other places that you've been, it was our huge cultural shifts. Did you feel that as a child moving around? What was your experience of culture?
David McNeill: Yeah. I'm sure I did on some level, but maybe not too consciously admittedly. I mean, so I mentioned also that I went to high school in the LA area. I went to university at the University of Texas at Austin. I didn't have really much of any other experience with Texas and even then, I mean, I was just in and around Austin, which is its own unique city and vibe. I just remember in my freshman year of university, in the first semester I was asked by somebody, "Oh, did you decide to come to Austin because it's more progressive and liberal and so on?" I just looked at her and I couldn't even really understand what she was saying, because it wasn't even a thing that thought about. It wasn't necessarily about culture or politics at that point or anything.
David McNeill: It was just about, this is a cool city. For that matter, they have a great university and I got into a good program. Also, a big thing for me is I love concerts and I love going to see live music and that's "the live music capital of the world," I think debatable. But it was a great place to go to school and to experience, I don't know, the "culture" in Austin. But I guess what I thought too, even going from yeah Mobile to Los Angeles was, well great, we get to go to the big city. Of course for me, I was also around the time that I started getting interested in Japanese and there were actual Japanese programs there. It was just I love the idea of exploring something new, but I wouldn't put it too much in some sort of cultural way in a sense. It was just it was new and big and interesting, and I wanted to dive in and just soak it all in, wherever it was and whatever it brought.
Peter Kersting: I'm not going to skirt over the Japanese, but we're going to talk about it a little bit later. I want to touch on something else you just said. It seems like for you, the first or second choice about a location is not about, like you said, the politics or the demographic necessarily, it's about other things. What are some of the things that really attract you to a different location?
David McNeill: I think one of the things that I love just in general, not just about even living somewhere, but traveling somewhere as well is, I think my favorite thing and what I always look forward to on some level. I love going to a new place is just the feeling of putting in your headphones, listening to music and walking around and getting lost. I always kind of deep down on some level, even continuing today have that wonder lust. I think it's just somewhere deep inside of me, and I think that's true for a lot of travelers and expats and so on. So I think that's something that I'm always searching out and I love to visit a place again the second time. Of course, you can't typically see everything the first time, depending of course how big the city is.
David McNeill: But there is something that's really special about seeing a place for the first time, and just having that feeling of, you turn right, you don't know what you're going to find, and then you don't know if you can get back. Obviously, it's aided by things like Google maps and I'm not saying I'm completely lost to the world, but it's a great experience. It's always interesting to move to a new place and then have that, and then after a couple weeks or months, you kind of feel you know the place more or less like the back of your hand, and then you end up desiring that feeling again. So it's something that keeps me going.
Peter Kersting: Okay. This brings me to a question that I often think about, and I know the answer for myself, but I'd be curious to hear what you think. Then, in general, what do you think the answer is. In my experience, the people who are the most traveled or who just enjoy living abroad long term the most are people who look at cultural differences, differences in location, even some of the crazy things that happen in travel. They look at those "differences" as exciting rather than scary.
David McNeill: Yeah, absolutely. I think the same. I mean, I do try as I can to see different festivals or holidays or interact and engage with different traditions and festivities, and things like that. So I think that's a great part of it and what I've often thought, and this is even true in the United States, for example, in university. But as I've moved into different cities and countries around the world is that that first year that I'm somewhere is, while it's really hard, I mean, just all the paperwork and getting settled and finding a place and making friends, and all that stuff that comes with it. It's also the most exciting and engaging because you haven't necessarily experienced Christmas in that culture or whatever their local holidays are, and things like that.
David McNeill: So that first year is so absolutely packed with that wanderlust feeling and getting everything set up. What typically happens is I go into year two and it's still usually pretty good, but it's a big step down in terms of the excitement around that exploring something brand new, because it's like, "Oh yeah, I remember this from last year," or, "That was fun, but maybe I'll just stay in this year or whatever." Luckily, at least here in Portugal, I feel now having been here just rounding up on two years, actually still really love it here and there're that I want to dig into. I mean, part of that's probably also because of the pandemic that we're going through. Can't do as much as I would've liked, but I'm glad to be in that mindset today as opposed to most of the countries and places I've been in things, where it's like that first year is full on and then I start thinking about where's next.
Peter Kersting: That is a really interesting take. I appreciate the honest answer, because I've noticed this with people that I've met traveling, they're very interesting people. They've been to a lot of different places, but they feel somehow they can't stick around long, they need to get out. I wonder for you, have you ever felt, wow, I really, is it a discomfort thing or is it just you're so excited to try the next thing? Because it's a very different challenge to grow root somewhere than it is to experience something new, take off again.
David McNeill: Yeah. Yeah. It is. I think that's the sort of strange part is I mentioned that one year that it takes to kind of get acquainted with everything comfortable and that's the most exciting time. So on the one hand when you're going, at least in my experience, when I'm going to year two, I maybe am starting to get that wanderlust again. But on the other hand, that's at the point where I've actually settled into the place to some degree, you've made friends, you've got the apartment, you've got the job or whatever it is the situation is. So there is a push and pull there.
David McNeill: There's the part of you that wants to go and explore and get out, I mean, of course you can travel on the weekends and things like that. But maybe there's, I guess kind of a FOMO element of it, but there's also that idea of, who knows how many years you have on this earth and that type of thing. So it's like you want to pack in a lot of stuff and don't necessarily, at least in my case, never wanted to sort of wait until the retirement year.
Alone With Peter.
Peter Kersting: I think it's safe to say that if you listen to this show on a regular basis, you probably agree with David, that life is about experiences and how we treat people along the way. I've been enjoying this interview with David so much and I hope you have been as well.
If you find value in Alone with Peter, I ask that you leave a review on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get podcast. If you want to talk more to David McNeill on a follow up Q&A at some point down the road, let me know on Instagram @alonewithpeter, send me a DM, leave a comment on one of the posts. I'd love to have him back on the show, but I want to hear what you guys think. So with that, let's get back to David from Expat Empire.
David McNeill: So there's that type of thing I think that was driving me when I was younger of, I just had this idea of, I want to live in all the big cities of the world and I didn't clarify or define that. Eventually, I realized that was, I mean, not impossible, but probably just not as much fun as it sounded experience of getting, again, like pulling out the roots and going through the process all over again. But that was definitely what I was feeling up front. So I do think that there's… I think it changes over time, but I think that there's a push and pull in making the roots, and then also leaving them shallow enough to where it's not horribly painful to pull them out.
Peter Kersting: I'm glad you used that analogy because that's exactly how I felt in the past is, the longer you stay somewhere, the more time you have to spread roots deep, right? I remember feeling when I was leaving South Korea, which I lived there for a year. You said a year usually it takes to get really accustomed and get comfortable and stuff. I was fortunate enough to have made some really deep connections even within that time. Not to say that other people don't, of course they do, but I felt I was so blessed in that place that I made really strong connections with Koreans. So leaving, I felt like a potted plant kind of, like my roots were pretty deep, but they weren't so deep that you couldn't pull them out. They're just going to bring some of the soil with it. I wonder how much you want to build roots at this point versus keep them shallow at this stage in your life.
David McNeill: Yeah. Yeah. I think it's definitely changed, and I mean, part of that is shown by, okay, I said before, I wanted to be in these big cities so I did. Before I had left the US, I was in San Francisco, then I was in Tokyo, then I was in Berlin, and then we moved to a very small beach town in Portugal. So totally different vibe. Yeah. Also, got married two years ago, a little over two years ago as well. That's right before we moved to Portugal. So that's kind of part of it too, but it's all of that. I think it's just a changing life stage. But at this point we do intend to be here in Portugal for the foreseeable future. Hopefully the next few years, you never know. I've moved now a few times before I thought that I might do so, or when you start out, you think it'll be maybe the rest of your years, but then you kind of, you never know.
David McNeill: But at this point, trying to put down the roots, maybe not completely, I would doubt that this is the last spot, just because of how it's been so far. If I were to put my money, it would be somewhere else. But not because it's not, Portugal's amazing, but just the way that these things go. So trying to put those out there and not try at this point to think too much about any consequences of that down the road, because I think we have a more long term view than I had in the past.
Peter Kersting: How much of that is being present versus thinking ahead?
David McNeill: Yeah. That's a hard one, because I think it's a great question. I thought about it more like… I did have some, I guess, challenges in the end for being present when my mind was always thinking ahead. But I do think that there was an element of just that wanderlust that kept flooding in. So in a way, I mean, I also know people that have been in Berlin and that's their first city abroad for five plus years. Or of course, I knew people in Japan that were there for 10, 20 years. So there's the people who make it for the long haul and maybe they don't have those thoughts or they aren't as strong. But I think at that time in my life, it was that thing that was just, I need to… There's only so many minutes in the day and so many days in the year, I got to keep it going. I got to keep living this life and exploring.
David McNeill: So that was coming up and I was trying to still… I guess I thought about this way, I thought, okay, I want to… Whenever I thought about making a move to another country or another city, I thought, I want to get to the point, I want to have done the things and said the things and mostly seeing the sites or doing this or that activity that's known for the place. I want to do those things such that I'm in a position where if an opportunity were to come up, I would feel no regret in taking it, because I had done those things that I wanted to do. That was my mentality around it. So it was still trying to be present and to get those things done, but there was still maybe a checklist type mentality to it, obviously to some degree.
David McNeill: But now, I mean, I guess I'm looking forward in different ways. I mean, in terms of the lifestyle that we built here, the business as well, we can talk on all that later. But I think the goals are different and sort of the, and maybe that's still looking forward, but still trying to be present. It's hard to do both, right?
Peter Kersting: It is one of the hardest balancing acts I've ever tried to maneuver. I want to highlight a couple things you said, because you said some really cool stuff there, in my opinion. First of all, I really relate and I think others would do as well to what you're saying about wanting to explore a new place and not enough hours in the day and just feeling like, man, I need to see this other thing, because who knows, life is short. So life is sweet. I need to be taking action and seeing what the world has to offer and that excitement that comes with that, right? I want to understand what is life like in Portugal? Who are the people in Berlin? How do you become friends with someone in Japan? Those are for certain types of people, yourself and myself, those are the kinds of things that I'm getting goosebumps right now talking about.
Peter Kersting: I just get so excited. The culture part of it to me is so and alluring. I just really want to… It's almost like a challenge. How do I relate to this person and build a relationship with this unique person? But also in this unique culture that there's an openness that is necessary there. So I really appreciate, and I wanted to highlight that. The other side of it is, not everybody's… There's degrees that's right, you mentioned, there's people you met 20 years in Japan. I don't know if I do 20 years in Japan. I really like Japan. I don't know if I do 20 years because I get that FOMO thing, right? I don't know how much of that is just, hey, I'm down with deep roots. I'm okay with that. I want to be somewhere different, but I want to… So there's that something, and then I also really appreciate how you're willing to talk about how that changes. As you get older, as you get married, I'm sure being married has got to have been a huge part of that, right?
David McNeill: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It was in a really good way. I mean, I think after doing that whole thing of starting from scratch and the dating scene, and going to clubs and doing this whole nightlife thing for a while. It was fun and I mean, there's obviously an attractive, elusive, whatever element to it. It's fun and it was good for those times. But I think what I realized, at least in my case time and time again was I did have sort of desire to settle down at some point. Yeah. I just met the perfect person at the perfect time when I was there in Berlin. That we soon started thinking about where it was next for us and it took, we can talk through it later, but it took us a while to make that happen.
David McNeill: But we started it off I think on the right foot with the right mentality and making the move now. I mean, it's totally different to move with somebody else opposed to moving on your own. I still remember going from Tokyo to Berlin and I landed in Berlin. I checked into Airbnb and again, I had just gotten off this long, long flight, right? But I checked meetup.com, I saw there were people meeting at a bar, went over there and met these people. Then they said, "Hey, we're going to a club," and I'm like, "Great. Let's go do it." I didn't actually last that long because I was just so zoned out. I was just like, I need to go back to bed. It was probably only 1:00 AM or something, which is the early night for these clubs in Berlin.
David McNeill: But that was my mentality was literally hit the ground running. Now, maybe to make a comparison to moving to Portugal with my wife was me hitting the ground running was, we arrived and then two nights later I started my Portuguese lessons. That's way tamer, still hitting the ground running but in a way that's much tamer and more, I don't know, adult or boring or whatever you want to call it. But I think it goes to show just the difference in mentality, the difference in lifestyle and what you're looking for. I think that's the beauty of being abroad and trying to keep doing that is just looking for those places and those opportunities in countries and cities, and people that make you feel at home that align with what you're looking for at that time. Because maybe I'm not always looking for this, I don't know. But at this point it's great, but that's how I felt about those other places as well. Now, this is a good fit for right now.
Peter Kersting: Classic example of 20 versus 30.
David McNeill: Yeah, exactly.
Peter Kersting: Going to the club until 1:00 AM the second you get into a place versus starting your Portuguese lessons right away. I love that.
David McNeill: Right. Yeah. I think that sums it up pretty well. I mean, in both ways, I think probably. Yeah. Hitting the ground too hard, because I think what I learned quickly in both the scenarios or both the situations was, okay, it's fine to take some time to get this thing sorted, but on one hand its parties and friends and fun. The other hand it's like, that was a more the wing to adapt and adjust. That's a very different motivation, right?
Peter Kersting: No, but I appreciate the comparison because either way you're taking your personality into account. You definitely are a go-getter and I've also noticed that you are someone who's looking to go where opportunity takes you, and we're going to touch on that more. But I would be remiss not to go back a little bit in time and in our conversation. How much your dad being a visual effects guy, your mom being a teacher moving around? First of all, how is their attitude about the world and work? How has that impacted you?
David McNeill: I think it's impacted me quite significantly but not in a sense of, okay, we grew up in foreign countries and this thing and that. But I think it was just more, again, of that openness to different experiences, different parts of the US. But also we traveled, I mean, not extensively, but we'd take a cruise to Mexico or went for a couple weeks to Europe, and we did those kind of things. We went to Costa Rica for two weeks or we did this and that. I think those types of experiences were really instrumental and fundamental in me wanting to continue going abroad. Because I think once you see that and how different it is and when you have some sort of, I don't know if you're born with that wanderlust or how it develops, it's hard to say. But I think when you have something like that or that seed starts inside of you and starts to grow, I think you start to realize, well, if you really want to have some wanderlust, if you really want to explore somewhere new, that's going to be outside of your home country.
David McNeill: Even though, as we talked about different parts of the US are so different as well. So it was kind of that feeling that there's just something out there and it's different. I'd also point out, which I like to do and give credit where it's due is also my grandpa actually, because he was in the Navy for 20 years. Early in his Naval career did a world cruise for nine months and would always tell me these stories. I think he did two of them, but I really remember the stories from the first one where he was seeing Japan, for example, obviously the port and more the military type environment than the core of Japan. But seeing that, I think it was in 1950 or somewhere around there, and it was just right after the war.
David McNeill: It's just hard for me to even imagine, really. I think those types of stories, I always felt, if I ever become a grandpa or something, which at this point no kids. So we will see what happens. But if I were ever in that situation or obviously we're talking to kids, friends and family and stuff, when I'm in my 80s, like my grandpa. I would love to be able to tell those stories of my time. I think that was always something that was it's always been underneath. A lot of this is just that desire to fully live life, experience a lot of stuff, have a lot of war stories of my own way, but hopefully not actually in the war zone.
Peter Kersting: I hope not.
David McNeill: I try to avoid those, but it's trying to reduce regret and to have those experiences and just to be living life fully, because you never know how long it lasts.
Peter Kersting: That is so fascinating. I feel like we could talk about your back story a lot longer, but I'd like to make a quick shift here. Because I think you have provided me a good opening. Your grandpa serving, doing that world cruise and specifically telling you stories about Japanese. Is that where your interest in Japan came in?
David McNeill: I think that was one factor, certainly. There were many, but that was one, I mean, definitely I give the credit there. Another piece of many was that my dad growing up and maybe it was that connection that my grandpa had with Japan in some way. But my dad growing up had exchange students, Japanese exchange students staying at his house with my grandparents and his sister and brother and everything. But it was at a time where my dad was around 16, 17. The students were around the same age. So hearing those stories, seeing the old photos. So there were all of those pieces that's been there.
Peter Kersting: Hold on a second. Sorry.
David McNeill: Yeah.
Peter Kersting: When would this have been?
David McNeill: This would've been in the-
Peter Kersting: The '70s? The '80s?
David McNeill: Yeah, the '70s. Late '70s, I guess
Peter Kersting: That is really interesting. I mean, it's pretty far removed from World War II already. But your grandpa having served right around that time, I think that is really cool.
David McNeill: Yeah. Yeah. It was through the church, I believe. I think it was somehow related to that and I don't know the religious element of it. But at any rate they, I believe coordinated it that way and somehow they got in this list of people that were open and willing to take folks. Yeah, I mean, just hearing the stories from that time and if I could, I mean, we could talk about it later. But I actually helps my dad reconnect with this guy 30 years later after I moved to Japan.
Peter Kersting: Oh my gosh. Yes, we will. We will definitely have to touch on that. That is so exciting.
David McNeill: Yeah, it was really cool. But all of those pieces, I mean to your original it was all that family stuff. But also getting into Japanese culture and animation, the video games, all of that. All of those pieces played a role and it just sort of, there's more to it. But those are the main pieces that really made me start getting that interest, and then moving that direction and quickly it became a passion.
Peter Kersting: Fascinating stuff. David McNeill, founder of Expat Empire on Alone with Peter. This is just the first taste guys. This is part one of our three-part interview and oh my gosh, I'm fired up. This is going to be so good. Obviously, we're seeing a little bit of a trend here with Japanese being in the middle, okay? So guess what? On the next episode of Alone with Peter, we're going to be talking about David's move to Japan, the pains of travel, how he understands that.
We're going to see how that plays in a little bit more later on to what he's doing right now. Also, we're going to talk a lot more about fluency in Japanese, learning another language, the challenges that come with that, and the cultural aspects that come with that, of living in a country that's so different from your own.
We're also going to be talking about taking what is given. What does that mean? As well as the birth of Expat Empire. All coming up on the second episode of Alone with Peter with David McNeill. Thank you for tuning in and we'll see you guys next Monday.
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34 Tips for Mobility and Training: How to Use Physical Therapy as Preventative Medicine with Dr. Dan Maggio
18 abr 2022· Alone With Peter
In Season 2, Episode 17 of Alone with Peter Board-Certified Physical Therapist Dr. Dan Maggio gives actionable, practical tips for increasing your mobility, improving your overall health, and recovering from injuries and chronic pain caused in daily life.
We also chat about Dan's entrepreneurial journey and some of the relatable obstacles he is trying to hurdle in his business pursuits.
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Be sure to follow Alone with Peter on Instagram for highlight clips of the latest episodes, previews of upcoming guests, and more. Follow along, and send me a DM to let me know what you think of the show!
If you are interested in following Dr. Dan Maggio you can find him on Instagram @DrDanMaggio, Anything talked about in this episode will be available in the show notes coming soon!
Dr. Dan Maggio - Board-certified Physical Therapist & Strength and Conditioning Specialist
Instagram: @DrDanMaggio
Email: [email protected]
Please enjoy part 3 of our interview with board-certified physical therapist Dr. Dan Maggio
*Transcripts may contain a few typos. With interviews ranging from 1-2 hours, it can be difficult to catch minor errors.
Peter Kersting: Welcome to Alone with Peter. I'm your host. And on this podcast, you're going to hear interviews with entrepreneurs, artists, digital nomads, and people seeking personal growth. We'll dive deep into what set them on their journey, where they are now, and how their story can impact you, including any helpful insights. If you feel inspired to take a similar leap of faith. No matter where you are on the journey, thank you for spending some quality time Alone with Peter.
Peter Kersting: Welcome back to our final part of this interview with Dr. Dan Maggio. If you didn't tune in last time, please check out the episode. We talked about how your neurobiology, your immune system, the way that you think about and spend your awareness on your injuries can actually affect how you recover. Talked a little bit also about Dan's background, why it was that he decided to go into physical therapy. And I'm really excited today on this episode to be talking about Dan's entrepreneurial goals. So not only does he work as a physical therapist in a clinic, but he is also working towards his own clinical endeavors. And so I wanna touch a little bit more on how Dan is pursuing those entrepreneurial goals, what his next steps are, what some of those obstacles he has been encountering are, and also how you can take some actionable steps to deal with any kind of pain you're dealing with, whether you're out on the road and you don't have access to a gym or something else, we're gonna be talking about all that on this episode. So without further ado, we're back with Dan, Dan, you ready, dude?
Peter Kersting: Ready? Yeah, let's do it.
Peter Kersting: Sweet. So you mentioned earlier that you've been quietly working on a shift to starting your own practice. Can you give us a little bit of an insight to what that looks like?
Peter Kersting: Yeah. I mean, right now the idea is hustle, hustle, hustled, right? So anytime that I'm not in the full time clinic, I'm trying to meet people outside of work and outside of the clinic space and just, Hey, if they need help, I'll be happy to meet you at your house or at a space that I'm renting. I'll help you out. I'll see you for whatever injuries things you want to come back from. It's challenged because I think right now, a lot of it's just based on word of mouth. And just the time that I have outside of work is, is pretty limited. And I think the goal right is to just be able to one day have that side income replace the full income, and then just jump ship into that side project.
Peter Kersting: How have you been approaching that shift because you work a lot in your main job, how do you find the time and, and how do you ramp that up?
Peter Kersting: oh man. The ramping up, that's where I have a struggle. Because I know eventually there's gonna be a day where it's just a jumping off point, right? Like the hours that I have full time in the clinic practice, um, they're gonna be taken away from whatever I do in my own project. And you know, I, I'm not sure the timeline on that. I haven't sure it's, I'm gonna have to run some more numbers, but
Peter Kersting: Well, I ask because I think it's a very relatable problem. If you wanna call it a problem. I think for anybody, who's trying to make a shift in what they're doing. Not that you don't find what you're doing meaningful, but you have a deeper desire to do something that you have more control of, more ownership of. And so I just wonder how do you know, uh, how do you know wanna stop? You know, people talk about having an exit strategy. I listen to another voice actor and he's also a business and marketing coach. His name is Mark Scott. He has his own podcast, which is really specifically geared towards voice actors. And I love it because I learned so much from the guy, but one of the things he talks about is do you have an exit strategy? And if you don't, how are you ever gonna go? Full-time if you wanna go full-time. And so it's, you gotta ask yourself some of those kind of questions. I'm not saying you have to have an answer for me right now, but I'm just curious to know, do you have some kind of preexisting condition that needs to be met before, you know, okay. I'm willing to jump in and what is it?
Peter Kersting: That's a great question. And I think selfishly, I would feel comfortable and this, you know, it's one of those irrational fears and irrational thoughts that like I'm gonna have a brick and mortar place that's fully furnished that I'm gonna jump full ship into or full steam ahead. Right. I think the things that I would really like to have would be some pieces of equipment that I find value in to treat patients with in a brick and mortar setting. Right. Like, I, I know that I could probably do it with a couple bands and a couple kettle bells and lightweights. Right. Um, and that's what I'm kind of doing right now, but for me to jump, I think full Bo ahead, I, I wanna build it, I think from the ground up and with, with the tools that I think are, I dunno how to say it, like, uh, the tools that I think are gonna get people, the results that they need.
Peter Kersting: Sure. Well, if you know, it sounds like you have a clear idea of what some of those things are. Have you been able to, and I'm not, like I said again, I'm not asking these questions to, to put you on the fence. I just think it's, it's certainly something I'm constantly asking myself is how do I take the next step forward? How do I keep building momentum? So, um, and, and for any of those, those aspiring entrepreneurs listening or people who are, are newly into their business endeavors, it's a really hard thing. I mean, when you're in your own position for someone else, you have a lot of the structure, a lot of those things assigned for you. You know, the equipment that you're using at work is, is the equipment that you're using at work. But if you know that there are certain things you're feel like you have to have in order to really take the next step forward, what are some ways you're working towards that? What are, what are some things you can do now to put yourself in that place? And, and are you doing them or what's stopping you?
Peter Kersting: Probably, I think the biggest thing might be honestly my mindset around money. I have this feeling like I need to save up this lump sum of money to then spend on the equipment that I would like when I would open up this facility. Right. I have this idea in my head and I don't know how realistic it is, but if I build it, they will come. Right. And part of it's building demand, building the marketing systems, building the, the patient flow and the word of mouth marketing to be like, Hey, you know, if you've been doing PT at this place, you should probably go somewhere else and maybe see this guy, Dan, cuz he'll be able to take a different perspective in a different look at you.
Peter Kersting: It sounds like there's a couple things. There's the clientele having the word of mouth spreading, whether it's person to person like that, or you reaching out directly to somebody that you think is really fitting the demographic you're looking for, or it's some kind of social media marketing. Are there any tangible steps you're taking to do that? Now, whether it's asking people that you work with on the side to recommend more people to you like actually actively saying, Hey, if you like, what I'm doing, please recommend your friends to me. Or are you, do you have, are you doing that on your social media? What, what are some things, are you budgeting money to, to buy that equipment that you really need? Like, what are, what are you doing? cause it's really easy to come up with the, with the, with the perfect plan and, and be perfecting it all this time and, and then not take the action necessary. I know I run into that quite a lot.
Peter Kersting: I think what I do really well of is just like stacking cash and just putting it under my mattress. , it's probably a really bad thing to do.
Peter Kersting: Well for your back for sure.
Peter Kersting: Yeah. exactly. Yeah. I'm sleeping on this lump on my bed.
Peter Kersting: You know, I think, uh, the word of mouth thing I could definitely do better at
Peter Kersting: Personally. I love working with you, dude. I think you're, you're really easy to talk to. You're a very personal guy and it's clear to me how passionate you are about what you do. Um, like I said before, there's not many people I think I would call to ask for a favor and have them profusely thank before it. So that speaks to your character and, and I think people, when they hear these interviews, I hope they, that that comes out. I, it certainly has in my conversation with you and I've really enjoyed that. , um, not to believe the point about some of the things that, you know, you need to work on your business, but I think it is, it is a sobering thing, but it's a really helpful thing to say, like, Hey, you know, my mindset, just like your mindset for the physiological stuff, um, has an impact on how you recover your mindset about how you take the next step course of action, uh, is going to change.
Peter Kersting: I just know I've started to take this very, uh, intentional, uh, approach recently where I'm gonna put in this amount of work specifically at this time every day, um, to do this next thing, that is the next priority list. And I'm not gonna wait until the plan is perfect. I'm just gonna take action because that's how things start to move. And then you perfect as you go. And that's really been hard for me, but, um, I'm starting to see some really positive results from that. So I encourage you. Um, any of these questions I've asked you that, that you're like, dude, I don't know the answer, this we're talking about physical therapy. Now you're asking about business practice, uh, screw you for making me look bad. I, uh, that's not though what I'm saying. I, I I'm fired up to talk to you more about it at some other point. No,
Peter Kersting: It's, I, I appreciate you keeping me honest in that endeavor cuz I know it's, it's uh, it's gonna be a struggle. It's just like, yeah. I guess finding a way to still give people the best results that they deserve while I'm doing it. I guess. So that might be another concern, right? Is like, am I gonna be able to provide them the best that I think is the best as I'm setting out on my imperfect plan, right?
Peter Kersting: Yeah. Fair. No, it's a challenge. It's a challenge to try to do. There's a lot of sacrifice that comes with working your full time job and being what you need to be to people while also trying to justify and, and really do justice to, uh, your dream goal. So I salute anyone who is attempting to do that. I certainly have mad respect for anyone who's trying to do anything. Entrepreneurial is it is a, is a leap of faith required. That is never easy,
Peter Kersting: Before we get into the second half of this podcast, where Dan gives actionable practical tips for you. If you're looking to move past pain and increase your mobility. If you've been enjoying this podcast I ask that you do me two solids. Number one, consider rating reviewing and subscribing to the show on your favorite podcast platform, whether that's Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get podcasts. And number two, send me a message on Instagram. @alonewithpeter. I want to hear from you. And it's a great place to find highlights of the latest episodes. See who's coming up next in the show and to interact with myself and the guests. All right, let's get back to Dr. Dan Maggio with those actionable practical tips on Alone with Peter.
Peter Kersting: I wanna swing our focus to the audience here, cuz I think there are some pretty actionable steps we can be talking about with regards to being proactive in our health and managing pain. I love that idea of learning how to manage pain so that you can live an upgraded version of your life because it's so easy to lose that in the shuffle. Like you said, so many of us, we don't deal with our physical pain until it's unmanageable. You go, well, my shoulder kind of hurts, but I don't wanna deal with it. Why would we do that to ourselves? We do it all the time. And I think it's just the attitude we have at least in Western culture. So what can people do to practice sound preventative medicine?
Peter Kersting: I know we've talked about the importance of having external load put on your body and then performing repetitions of whatever with that. But I think in general, having a movement practice is gonna be good for anybody, right. Um, now that could be like you said, Hey, I go running. That's how I handle my stress if someone's really into yoga or Pilates or some kind of body weight movement. Awesome. Um, I think having a movement practice is excellent and that it's just exposing your body to different ranges of motion that you don't naturally go through in your daily life. Um, the caveat to that is, is the latter part of that. Like, Hey, it's different raises of motion that I'm not exposed to in my everyday life. If running puts me into the same movement patterns that I'm doing time and time again with my head going forward and my arms moving at my sides.
Peter Kersting: Like if I'm out only doing things forward, then I'm only getting exposure to those ranges, right? And I'm not doing anything rotational or twisting. And those are other experiences that my, my muscles and my joints need. Um, if I'm only doing things slow and controlled in yoga, man, like why don't we do some explosive running or explosive jumping if I'm only doing high intensity interval training, like why don't I do some yoga practice or some slow mindfulness training? I'm only doing like heavy loaded, weighted exercises. Why don't I do something that's slow, steady cardio on a bike or some running. Right. So what I tend to also a lens, uh, or perspective that I take is a pendulum approach, right? So you gotta find out where, where in your life of let's say physical movement right now, your, your body is existing in this pendulum, right? Maybe I'm all the way at one end of extreme endurance with running. I love doing my, um, eight to 10 miles, you know, three to four days a week. Um, if my capacity to endure and have my muscles go through that much, um, contraction, if it exists on one end of the pendulum, then what is the complete opposite end of the pendulum that I'm my body is not experiencing. And how can I give it a little bit of this guy and a little bit over here to end up somewhere in the middle,
Peter Kersting: In the example of the long distance runner, what would the opposite power lifting?
Peter Kersting: maybe maybe something similar to power lifting. You don't have to be exactly a power lifter to, uh, to, you know, but I think some of the principles of power lifting, um, can help a lot of long distance runners, right? If you're used to doing, um, let's, you know, while you're on your feet running miles, that's a ton of reps. That's a ton of, uh, let's put it in a weight room term, right? Like your foot hits the ground. It's a lot of force going through your foot through your legs, through your hip, but I'm doing small loads, many, many, many repetitions. It's like getting on a leg press and only pressing it with five pounds, but I'm gonna do it 500 times. Now. Let's just reverse that and say, maybe I wanna get on the leg press and do six to eight repetitions with something that's fairly challenging, right.
Peter Kersting: Something that's gonna make my muscle strain against it. What this does is it creates a protective, um, overload, um, if you will, on the tissues and on the body. So that if I expose my tissues to this higher capacity, when I do something that's lower, I've already, I have this buffer zone. If you will, I kind of equate it to, Hey, if I'm gonna go offroading, do I want to go in a Prius or do I want to go in Jeep? Right? And most people are gonna say Jeep, right? Because I have the, the capacity of extra metal, extra frames. I've got, um, bigger Springs to absorb the shock and the load. Right? So all that we're doing for people's bodies is saying, what is the task that you wanna do now? Maybe you do it recreationally, or maybe you do it for fun. And it could be something as simple as running, right. But if I'm just gonna go out running, is my body prepared to handle that load and that task. And if not, what do I have to expose to?
Peter Kersting: So in that situation, if we're still using the analogy of the long distance runner would the opposite of the pendulum actually look more like sprinting because it's a high intensity, low repetition movement.
Peter Kersting: You got it. Yeah.
Peter Kersting: Or would it be, like a weight lifting using the muscles that I would be using for the long distance run to strengthen those muscles?
Peter Kersting: Kind of both honestly. Um, because, because they both exist on that other end of the pendulum that our body's not experiencing. Um, what from the sports performance world, sprinting is the strength training of running, right? Because the pattern is the same. Your body is going through, uh, a reciprocal pattern of right arm, left leg. It's going forward. Things are switching sides left to right. And now I'm doing it in a faster manner. My tissues are going at a higher load, higher velocity. So you're gonna build a protected effect by doing sprints.
Peter Kersting: Okay. Let's say, I'm just talking about my normal everyday lifestyle. Yeah. And I'll give a couple different scenarios and maybe you could tell me what are some things I can do. I'm somebody who spends a lot of time on my computer and that maybe affects my posture. Mm-hmm and the tension in my neck and shoulders or my wrists. What can I do?
Peter Kersting: Yeah. So let's say the neck and shoulders, right? The neck and shoulders are oftentimes going into a forward position. Let's just reverse engineer ways to get those things backwards. Right. So if I'm gonna try to get my shoulders back, I'm gonna do that same thing with the head, get the head back. I'm gonna do some different stretches for that in the same sense. I want to think about the, the planes of motion that my body exists in. Not only do things bend forward and backward, but they also twist, right. And they also go side to side. Those are different ranges that you want expose your body to as well. So if you're not doing any twisting patterns, Hey, maybe it's as simple as land on the ground, getting your spine to twist a little bit more, taking one arm, opening it up, getting a big stretch through that. It's just exposure to ranges that your body doesn't have throughout its normal working day for things. But the wrist, man, if my hand is always flexed, I gotta somehow get it open. Right? If my tissues are getting stiff and very contracted on this side, maybe I'm gonna take a massage baller. I'm gonna take my hands and start to work through some of those tissues. And I'm gonna work the ones on the other side to help increase the strength on that side. So
Peter Kersting: Those all sound like very reactive situations to me though, right? I'm already encountering the stress in my neck or shoulders or the pain in my wrist. How can I be taking a proactive approach to say, okay, I wanna strengthen those things. I wanna get rid of the pain, but I don't wanna encounter it anymore. Cuz I still have to work at the computer. What do I do
Peter Kersting: The same things? Right. So rehab and training are worn and the same. So I think a lot of times people have this idea that, and maybe this is my, my fault for not describing it well, but what we do from a rehab standpoint are all of the same things or it should be all the same things that you're doing as a, uh, proactive, preventative approach. Right? So the same things that I would give you for the neck pain that you're having now are the same things that I would prescribe myself on a daily basis. If I'm gonna be experiencing the types of time and load that I'm gonna be spending, looking at my computer. Right? Like, so for me, you know, I, I'm having, you know, four to five minutes at a time of looking at my computer and then working on somebody. So the, the time that I spend on my computer is gonna be different than someone else. But is, is that time spent like, is it, am I able to get outta that position?
Peter Kersting: Is it just changing your range of motion or being really conscious about shifting positions of taking breaks or is it about having a better posture? Just like a lot of times you get slumped because you're in case of a computer anyway, you're trying to really focus on what's on the screen and you're just leaning. Right. So I'd be curious to know how much of it from the preventative standpoint is, okay. I I'm using these muscles a lot, so I really gotta strengthen them. And the ways that will help avoid entry or is it actually, I'm just not aware of how much I'm taking a bad posture when doing these things. And therefore I need to put myself in the position where I can do that thing, but not with bad posture,
Peter Kersting: Uh, both. Right. And let's so the first part was super important. I wanna have enough training and a lot of good repetitions and good strength built up to avoid, um, injuries going forward. But in terms of like bad posture, there's really not a bad posture. It's just like, what are those positions that you're gonna get exposed to that can lead to more things later on, right? Like I there's no bad posture. It's just your next posture. Right? If I'm gonna spend eight hours looking this way, maybe I wanna turn my computer screen, go to the side. I'm gonna go to the other side over here. There's different ways of looking at how to change posture and not always have it be, oh, people come in and say, oh my posture's really bad. Like your posture's not bad. It's just that your muscles just can't support you in that position for that long. And maybe they're not meant to, maybe they're supposed to move around. Right. Like I've never known…
Peter Kersting: Maybe you're not supposed to sit at a computer for five hours at time.
Peter Kersting: Yeah. You got it right. yeah. You're supposed to take some breaks.
Peter Kersting: I'll be honest with you. Posture is I think something I misunderstand sometimes then, because I think, well, if I had had better posture, I wouldn't have gotten injured is the way that I think a lot of times, what are some common misunderstandings or mistakes people have or misconceptions, even with regards to therapy and recovery.
Peter Kersting: I think the, probably the biggest one that you hit on right now was that your pain can be related to posture. Right. And what we often find is, yeah, it can be related to posture, but oftentimes it's the postures and the strengths and the endurance that you're not able to support yourself in or not able to get to. Right. So, um, you know, like you said, our bodies are not made to be in a position for five hours. Like I'm, I don't know, on this zoom call, I'm kind of like moving around. Like I can't, I,
Peter Kersting: I wanna, I wanna do it too. Yeah,
Peter Kersting: Totally.
Peter Kersting: Well, I do standing desks for a lot of the stuff that I do. And I mean, that's, that's nice for me, but even that it's pretty hard to be in tight space for very long. And it's good. Sometimes you can't take breaks though, man. I mean like depending on the way that your job is, and especially in, I think in today's world, when people are going more and more remote with their work, they've got a home office set up of some kind and, and it's a whole nother story about like how you have a work life balance when your work is at home. But I think if there's gotta be ways that you can set up your environment or your routine, so that either have the breaks that you need or you can position yourself so that you're not putting as much stress on your body.
Peter Kersting: I also wonder if people over correct. Like if I recognize, oh man, like my neck and shoulders are hurting right now and I'm paying attention to that. And I go, I don't want my neck and shoulders hurt, so I'm gonna change my posture and now I'm doing this and yeah, my neck hurts, dude. Yeah. Cause I'm thinking about it and I'm moving my neck differently. How much of it is, is, is that hyper awareness you spoke about earlier and how do you, what, what should I do when I notice that I'm starting to have, uh, you know, my, I have a, I know it's my neck and my shoulders when my, my body starts hurt. It's one of those two things. So when I recognize it, what should I be doing?
Peter Kersting: Finding different positions that you haven't been in? Uh, I know, I think I, I think kind of just talking in circles, but it's sometimes it's as simple and it's as I'm as complex as that. Right. Um, maybe it's also holding tension in those positions, right? Maybe it's not the fact that your head is forward. It's just that the fact that your head is forward, but it's passively going there. Right. If I'm just like hanging on my ligaments and all of my soft tissues are just like holding onto this thing, maybe I wanna forcefully get my head there and see about putting tension in that position. So I think oftentimes we, we just take like one approach to it instead of saying like,
Peter Kersting: And, and when you say that you, you mean that in terms of that's the strengthening exercise? Not like
Peter Kersting: I totally mean that. I totally mean like, Hey, maybe like, and this is because I think important for physical therapy and movement, right? Like I'm not, we're not gonna be dogmatic about it and say like, Hey, if your, your head is always forwarded, you always need to go backwards. Like you only need to go double chin for everything. But like, Hey, maybe sometimes it feels really good to stick my neck forward and to stretch it out. And it just get some tension into those muscles in different areas.
Peter Kersting: But it's funny that you used the word tension because in my, um, and maybe this is just uniquely me, I don't know. But I think like, oh, I've got pain in that area. I must be too tense. So I need to try to relax.
Peter Kersting: That's a great, I'm glad you brought this up, cuz this might be probably my biggest pet peeve that patients and anyone say right. Is I'm tight. Oh, I feel so tight right here. Oh my upper traps are tight. My back is tight. My hips are tight. Right. And tightness is just a garbage term. It's just like, Hey, how's that food? Oh, it's salty. Oh this food is so bland. Oh. It's like, it's like, it's just a, it's just a whatever. Right. But it tells us something important is that when your body is giving you a feeling of tightness, it is trying to activate those muscles and it is trying to pull something back and it's trying to help hold you there and it's not able to do it. Right.
Peter Kersting: So it's almost like your body is telling you, Hey, Peter, your back is not strong enough to support your neck in that position. I'm really trying. But I'm, it's like you're playing tug war. Like at the imagery in my head is you got three people on one side or three people on the other and the, the muscle that's too weak is getting dragged the other way.
Peter Kersting: It can definitely be one of those things. It can also mean that, Hey, maybe the endurance of those muscles ISS kind of at a, at a point where it needs recharge. Right. And so if I've got three hours and three hours later, my neck's like, oh, I just need some time. Maybe I stand up, take a little break, lay on the floor, whatever, if my job allows for it. Um, but it's, I think when we look at muscles too, muscles, muscles don't have this like unlimited span of energy. Right. It's kind of like, you know, the charger on your phone, right? Your battery kind of wears out after time. I gotta go plug that thing back in. And the, if I have like 80% of battery, I'm gonna use my phone. Like I have 80%. But if I buy, if my phone only has 20%, I'm gonna use it very sparingly.
Peter Kersting: So my muscles are kind of the same way. Right? If I don't, if I do have a big strength reserved, I can tap into those muscles a lot easier than if my muscles are a little bit weaker. And they're like, Hey man, every day we start off these muscles and they're at 20%. And I go through that 20%, a lot faster. And if I start those muscles at 80%, and I think that's why I'm a huge proponent of strengthening as being the way to get your muscles, to increase their battery supply. Right. Because that's really the, the main way we know how to do it is get them stronger, get them more oxygen, get them more blood flow, and then they can have a longer endurance.
Peter Kersting: I love it. Okay. So couple other questions. When I'm talking about managing pain, if you're talking to the average person, what is the checklist? If you will, the procedural approach I should take to that. And what one point should I really be seeking out physical therapy?
Peter Kersting: Yeah. I would say if you're having pain and you're not having results with, maybe it's, you're doing some stretches and these stretches really aren't getting you anywhere. Or it's almost where there's been no trauma that happens. Right? Because trauma trauma always muddies the water. You gotta make sure that a bone's not broken or nerves not getting pinched or something more serious isn't going on. Right? Like, so make sure you screen that stuff out, go to a, go to your primary care, go to an urgent care, make sure things are not physically damaged. Right. But if these things are going on and if there's no real sign of an injury that's happened or irritated your tissues, then it might be time to look at, Hey, what are my habits of movement? And have I been, have I seen a specialist take a look at how my body moves and what movements I should do to undo that pattern that I'm stuck in.
Peter Kersting: I appreciate that. What if I am constantly on the go and I don't have access to something like Jim, or maybe even worse, I actually don't have healthcare coverage. What do I do? I mean, do I just deal with it?
Peter Kersting: I think, uh well, no, you don't wanna, I mean, dealing with, it's only gonna get you so far,
Peter Kersting: But I mean, that's a real question. I think people ask themselves, you know, like people just say, I'm you, I gotta messed up back. Totally. That's what it is.
Peter Kersting: I've just, I just gotta do this. Yep. I think there are going to be some good resources wherever you look stuff up. You know, if you're gonna try, try some stuff on YouTube, try some stuff on Instagram. I know YouTube and Instagram are kind of, kind of the wild west of who's putting information out there. Um, I think from a, from a self awareness standpoint, it's saying, Hey, if my back hurts, what are the times of day that my back hurt? And does it hurt when I move forward or when I move backward, does it hurt when I go sideways this way or sideways that way, does it hurt when I twist or twist here? So what I want to find, or what people should be interested in is maybe finding a, a movement pattern that brings their pain on or alleviates some of their pain. Right? Like, Hey, I, I have pain when I'm sitting at my desk, but I, I can sit on my couch and I put my feet up. All my pain goes away. I don't know what it is, but it's, but it happens right. Or my back pain goes away when I lay on my stomach. Um, but when I roll out of bed in the morning, that's when my pain starts up. I'm looking for a pattern for those things. Right.
Peter Kersting: Is it a lot of, it's the range of motion you're checking for?
Peter Kersting: Range of motion in just the pattern in general, right? So like, Hey, maybe it's the way that multiple joints and multiple muscles are working to that. Cause your pain. Um, maybe it's the way that you're doing something. Um, if you're a little bit older and you're getting out of bed and your back is stiff, maybe it's the way that you're getting outta bed or the fact that you've been sleeping a certain way.
Peter Kersting: There's a lot of factors. That's why this stuff is so hard. So I think for the average person to know how to deal with they're painfully aware of what they're dealing with, but they're not necessarily sure how to handle it. I mean, I I've certainly found that to be true for myself. A lot of times it's like, is weightlifting gonna help this? Or is it gonna aggravate it? I think that's a fear. A lot of people have in regards to the things to say, here, you talk about those kind of things. Actually, that might even be a good question to ask you, talk about strengthening the muscles. How do I know that I'm not gonna make it worse by my shoulder hurts trying to do a shoulder press or something, you know? Like what? You just stay light, pay attention to what range of motion is aggravating it, if it's pushing it, but not aggravating it, then do it then. Or what would you say?
Peter Kersting: Yeah. So I would, I would strengthen in the ranges of motion that you can actually control, right? If you can't control getting your arm all the way overhead without pain to begin with, I wouldn't start to put strength in that range. Um, now granted, like if I could get my arm all the way toward my ear and I have no pain, good, I'm gonna start to press there. But if I,
Peter Kersting: And for those who are not able to see this, he's reaching directly up above, over his head. Yeah. To do this.
Peter Kersting: Yeah. But if my arm is a little bit more forward and I can, I have no pain here, I'm gonna start to work in that zone. So work in the zones
Peter Kersting: And with the goal of reaching yeah. Directly above. Yeah. It's almost like if you've got a ceiling, you wanna get to the point where you're pushing the ceiling, but not
Peter Kersting: Yep. So you kind of push that barrier each time. So it's like you said, it's kinda it's pattern recognition. What am I doing through my day and what am I not doing through my day? Um, am I sitting with my hips in a certain position for eight hours? Cool. Do I have to spend the next eight hours doing stuff to unload that position? Maybe, you know, um, can I hijack that time and say, Hey, instead of eight hours of my hip being this way, maybe I gotta go eight hours this way. Well, I can't spend eight hours that way. So maybe I'm gonna do some repetitions of just doing the other position. Right?
Peter Kersting: Well, we could talk all day about these different scenarios, whether it comes to, you know, how much should I be stretching versus, uh, strengthen the antagonist muscle and all this stuff. But I wanted to ask you one final question, which is if there was one concrete, actionable thing, you could have people walk away from this podcast interview with what would that be?
Peter Kersting: I would say it would probably come back to being more mindful of your movement, right? Like being aware of what you're doing on a daily basis and where that's gonna have, uh, different cost to your body from your movement, as well as what you can do to undo that pattern. Right? I mean, we talked about that pendulum, right? If what I'm doing throughout my day is existing on one end. How can I do the opposite of that? So I think just being more mindful, because maybe it's something that you it's, it's doing while you're lifting your, your kid out of the ground or off the ground, right. Maybe you're lifting a, a heavy box of the package that came to your house. You bent over, you picked it up. Oh, you weren't really thinking about how you did it and now your back hurts. Right? So thinking about how you move is as important as just moving in general.
Peter Kersting: I love it. Well, Dan, this has been a lot of fun for me. It's it's just nice to catch up, dude. And I love your energy. I love your enthusiasm. And I know you're an introvert, so I probably just depleted all of your energy levels the entire day.
Peter Kersting: It's all good.
Peter Kersting: Go lift some weights, apologize to your wife. You're low energy because of me. You can blame it on me if you want.
Peter Kersting: .
Peter Kersting: If anybody really wants to get in touch with you, uh, Dr. Dan Maggio on Instagram and Dr. Dan Maggio, gmail.com. Uh, those are the two ways that they can get ahold of you, right?
Peter Kersting: Yep. Yep. Those will work out.
Peter Kersting: Awesome. Well, dude, it's been so much fun and I'm so thankful that you spent some quality time alone with Peter. If you like this episode with Dan, please be sure to rate, subscribe, review, and, uh, give him some love on his Instagram. He's a really great guy. And I know from experience, he's just really trying to help people get those tools that they need to navigate through pain and improve the quality of their lives. So what's not to love about that.
Peter Kersting: Thanks, Pete. I appreciate it.
Speaker 6: Coming up on the next interview of Alone with Peter
Peter Kersting: The founder of Expat Empire, David McNeil is focused on inspiring people to move abroad and to help them do it. In addition to producing online courses, books, podcasts, blog posts, you name it, Expat Empire also offers consulting services to give everyone the opportunity to achieve their international dreams. We're talking with the founder, David, about his expat journey, why he moved abroad to Tokyo, how he ended up in Berlin. And now ultimately in Porto, Portugal. We'll talk about how you too can become an expat and why you might be interested. All right, here on Alone with Peter.
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33 Pain, Your Brain, and Holistic Healing with Dr. Dan Maggio
11 abr 2022· Alone With Peter
In Season 2, Episode 16 of Alone with Peter, Dr. Dan Maggio we're talking about pain, your brain, and holistic health. We chat about Dan's entrepreneurial journey as well as his holistic view of physical therapy. We talk about stress and trauma; and how they can physically manifest in the body causing chronic pain. Plus so much more!
Listen on Apple Listen on Spotify Listen on Stitcher Listen on Podchaser Listen on Apple Listen on Spotify Listen on Stitcher Listen on PodchaserEnjoying the show? Follow us on Instagram!
Be sure to follow Alone with Peter on Instagram for highlight clips of the latest episodes, previews of upcoming guests, and more. Follow along, and send me a DM to let me know what you think of the show!
Dr. Dan Maggio - Board-certified Physical Therapist & Strength and Conditioning Specialist
Instagram: @DrDanMaggio
Email: [email protected]
Please enjoy part 2 of our interview with board-certified physical therapist Dr. Dan Maggio
*Transcripts may contain a few typos. With interviews ranging from 1-2 hours, it can be difficult to catch minor errors.
Peter Kersting: Welcome to Alone with Peter. I'm your host and on this podcast, you're going to hear interviews with entrepreneurs, artists, digital nomads, and people seeking personal growth. We'll dive deep into what set them on their journey, where they are now and how their story can impact you, including any helpful insights. If you feel inspired to take a similar leap of faith, no matter where you are on the journey. Thank you for spending some quality time alone with Peter.
Peter Kersting: We are back for part two of our interview with Dr. Dan Maggio. If you missed the las
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32 Move Past Pain and Improve Your Fitness Life with Doctor Dan Maggio
4 abr 2022· Alone With Peter
In Season 2, Episode 15 of Alone with Peter we are joined by Doctor Dan Maggio. Dan is a board-certified physical therapist who has been practicing in the Phoenix Valley for over 4 years. As a strength and conditioning specialist, Dr. Dan works with barbell athletes and individuals searching to move past pain and improve their fitness lives.
If you are interested in following Dr. Dan Maggio you can find him on Instagram @DrDanMaggio, Anything talked about in this episode will be available in the show notes coming soon!
Listen on Apple Listen on Spotify Listen on Stitcher Listen on Podchaser Listen on Apple Listen on Spotify Listen on Stitcher Listen on PodchaserDr. Dan Maggio - Board-certified Physical Therapist & Strength and Conditioning Specialist
Instagram: @DrDanMaggio
Email: [email protected]
Please enjoy part 1 of our interview with board-certified physical therapist Dr. Dan Maggio
*Transcripts may contain a few typos. With interviews ranging from 1-2 hours, it can be difficult to catch minor errors.
Peter Kersting:Dan, I am really excited to have you on the show today. How are you doing, man?
Dr. Dan Maggio:I'm good. I'm good. Thanks, Pete. This is awesome. Great to see you again and glad we get to chat about some things today.
Peter Kersting:Yeah, dude. Well, so the older I get, the more I realize just how interconnected health and fitness are with everything in my life, my mental health, my productivity, and even my creativity. So I'm really excited to have you on the show to talk about some of these things because as a practicing physical therapist and a sports medicine guy, I think there's a connection between all these things in a holistic sort of way that people maybe don't necessarily think about.
Peter Kersting:So in today's episode, we are going to try to touch on Dan, the physical therapist, as
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31 Punch Fear in the Face and Find Success: Learn to Start
28 mar 2022· Alone With Peter
10MT Ten-Minute Takeaways
Sometimes the hardest and scariest thing to do is start. Why is it so scary?
Starting means exposing yourself to the possibility of failure. It requires vulnerability, courage, and self-confidence. It demands you accept the possibility of failure and it forces you to take stock of where you are right now.
You can't know the outcome before you start. There's no assurance of the end result. But the truth is, there can be no success without the possibility of failure and you can't become the person you want to be unless you just start.
In this ten-minute takeaway, we explore the book Start by Jon Acuff. A way to punch fear in the face, escape average, and do work that matters.
Listen on Apple Listen on Spotify Listen on Stitcher Listen on Podchaser Listen on Apple Listen on Spotify Listen on Stitcher Listen on PodchaserJon Acuff New York Times Bestselling Author | Speaker | Brand Consultant
Jon Acuff is the New York Times Bestselling author of six books including his most recent Wall Street Journal #1 Bestseller, Finish: Give yourself the gift of done. For over 20 years he's helped some of the biggest brands in the world tell their story, including The Home Depot, Bose, Staples, and the Dave Ramsey Team. He’s spoken to hundreds of thousands of people at conferences, colleges, companies, and churches and been featured regularly on national media.
Ebook and audiobook versions of his books are available online at DaveRamsey.com
Website: jonacuff.com
LinkedIn: jonacuff
Twitter: @jonacuff
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30 Invest in Your Future – How to Make Smart Money Moves with Tanner Combias
14 mar 2022· Alone With Peter
You don't need to have a six-figure job to pursue your dreams, but you do need to be diligent in balancing your budget, paying off debt, and investing in your future. In part 3 of our interview with Entrepreneur and Owner of Hostel Mate, LLC; Tanner Combias gives actionable, practical tips you can use today to start spending your money where it matters.
Listen on Apple Listen on Spotify Listen on Stitcher Listen on Podchaser Listen on Apple Listen on Spotify Listen on Stitcher Listen on Podchaser
Tanner is a financial advisor with a degree in Finance & a Master's in Accountancy. He spent five years working at PwC, one of the largest professional service firms in the world before he decided to quit his job to pursue competitive tennis and travel the world. Tanner visited 70 hostels in 16 different countries during his two years of world travel. Those experiences gave birth to Hostel Mate, a mobile app designed to enhance the hostel guest experience.
In Season 2, Episode 13 Tanner gives actionable, practical tips for balancing your budget and investing in your future so you can have the financial freedom to pursue your dreams. If you're looking for real-world budget tips to get your finances in order this episode was made for you.
Tanner Combias - Financial Advisor, CPA, Entrepreneur, and Traveler Blogger
Website: hostelmate.app
Travel Blog: tennisthentravel.com
Instagram tennis_then_travel
Please enjoy part 3 of our interview with Entrepreneur and Owner of Hostel Mate, LLC; Tanner Combias
*Transcripts may contain a few typos. With interviews ranging from 1-2 hours, it can be difficult to catch minor errors.
Peter Kersting: Welcome back to the third and final part of our inter
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29 Living Off Index Funds – Competitive Tennis and World Travel with Tanner Combias
7 mar 2022· Alone With Peter
Entrepreneur and Owner of Hostel Mate, LLC; Tanner Combias is back on Alone with Peter for part two of his interview. Tanner is a financial advisor with a degree in Finance & Masters in Accountancy. He spent five years working at PwC, one of the largest professional service firms in the world before he decided to quit his job to pursue competitive tennis and travel the world.
In this episode, we will dive deeper into Tanner's tennis journey. As you may imagine it is highly irregular for someone to join a tennis academy after college, even more so if they are not already a pro. In his late 20s, Tanner didn't let that deter him from pursuing his dream. After nearly a year in the competitive camps, Tanner decided to switch focus to travel.
In this episode, we will also discover how he was able to budget for three years of tennis and travel without having a job. The answer might not be as far out of reach as you think! This one is for tennis lovers. It's also for those looking to be smarter with their money and understand how to budget (especially for world travel!)
After his stint in the competitive camps, Tanner visited 16 countries and over 70 hostels from 2019 to 2020. He was able to fund his travels around the world exclusively through savings and investments in index funds. Tanner documented his experience extensively on his blog tennisthentravel.com which I highly recommend you check out!
Stay through to the end for a sneak peak at our third and final interview with Tanner Combias.
Alone with Peter airs Mondays at 7 AM PST. Be sure to subscribe on your favorite podcast platform so you never miss another episode!
Tanner Combias - Financial Advisor, CPA, Entrepreneur, and Traveler Blogger
Website: hostelmate.app
Travel Blog: tennisthentravel.com
Instagram tennis_then_travel
Please enjoy part 2 of our interview with Entrepreneur and Owner of Hostel Mate, LLC; Tanner Combias
*Transcripts may contain a few typos. With interviews ranging from 1-2 hours, it can be difficult to catch minor errors.
29 Living Off Index Funds - Competitive Tennis and World Travel with Tanner Combias
Peter Kersting: Welcome back to Alone with Peter. This is part two of my interview with Tanner Combias. Last week, we talked about what it was like for him growing up, having big aspirations in small pockets, being a CPA, having a degree in finance and accountancy and how he looks at money, how his experience in Corporate America, working for PWC. One of the big fours helped shape the way that he looks at money. And ultimately how his experience in the big four and in that environment led him to leave Corporate America and to start his own thing.
Peter Kersting: We got a little bit of a tease of tennis and travel. He ultimately went off to spend an entire year just playing tennis for going off to travel. And so welcome back to the show Tanner, and I want to jump straight into this. This is not the typical career move people make from making a $100,000 a year to saying, "I'm going to throw away my job so I can go
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28 Escape from Corporate America – Tennis Then Travel with Tanner Combias
28 fev 2022· Alone With Peter
Listen on Apple Listen on Spotify Listen on Stitcher Listen on Podchaser Listen on Apple Listen on Spotify Listen on Stitcher Listen on Podchaser
I'm pleased to welcome Entrepreneur and Owner of Hostel Mate, LLC; Tanner Combias to the show. Tanner is a financial advisor with a degree in Finance & Masters in Accountancy. He spent five years working at PwC, one of the largest professional service firms in the world before he decided to quit his job to pursue competitive tennis and travel the world.
His tennis journey began in 2018 where he spent a year playing competitive tennis in Florida tennis academies. After his stint in the competitive camps, Tanner visited 16 countries and over 70 hostels from 2019 to 2020. He was able to fund his travels around the world exclusively through savings and investments in index funds. Tanner documented his experience extensively on his blog tennisthentravel.com which I highly recommend you check out!.
A hard-working go-getter, Tanner is excellent at pivoting when the need arises. If you're a traveler, entrepreneur, or a calculated risk-taker looking to become smarter with your finances this interview has a lot to offer you.
Alone with Peter airs Mondays at 7 AM PST. Be sure to subscribe on your favorite podcast platform so you never miss another episode!
Tanner Combias - Financial Advisor, CPA, Entrepreneur, and Traveler Blogger
Website: hostelmate.app
Travel Blog: tennisthentravel.com
Instagram tennis_then_travel
Please enjoy this transcript of my interview with Entrepreneur and Owner of Hostel Mate, LLC; Tanner Combias
*Transcripts ma
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Up Next on Alone with Peter – Tanner Combias
27 fev 2022· Alone With Peter
Listen on Apple Listen on Spotify Listen on Stitcher Listen on Podchaser Listen on Apple Listen on Spotify Listen on Stitcher Listen on Podchaser
Over the next three weeks, we will be learning from Entrepreneur and Owner of Hostel Mate, LLC; Tanner Combias. Tanner is a financial advisor with a degree in Finance & Masters in Accountancy. After five years working at PwC, one of the largest professional service firms in the world he decided to quit his job and pursue competitive tennis.
Tanner visited 16 countries and over 70 hostels during his two-year stint of travel. He was able to fund his travels around the world exclusively through savings and investments in index funds. He documented his experience extensively on his blog tennisthentravel.com which I highly recommend you check out!.
A hard-working go-getter, Tanner is excellent at pivoting when the need arises. If you're a traveler, entrepreneur, and a calculated risk-taker looking to become smarter with your finances this interview has a lot to offer you.
Alone with Peter airs Mondays at 7 AM PST. Be sure to subscribe on your favorite podcast platform so you never miss another episode!
Tanner Combias - Financial Advisor, CPA, Entrepreneur, and Traveler Blogger
Website: hostelmate.app
Travel Blog: tennisthentravel.com
Instagram tennis_then_travel
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27 Pro Tips for Living and Teaching in Asia with Kim Rodriguez
31 jan 2022· Alone With Peter
Listen on Apple Listen on Spotify Listen on Stitcher Listen on Podchaser Listen on Apple Listen on Spotify Listen on Stitcher Listen on Podchaser
Do you love K-Pop, fried chicken, and kids? You might love teaching in South Korea! Even if those aren't your things you might really appreciate this episode. Listen as TEFL Teacher and World Traveler Kim Rodriguez shares actionable, practical tips for living and teaching in Asia.
If you've had your eyes set on teaching English as a second language, traveling, and becoming a digital nomad Kim can teach you a lot. In Season 2, Episode 10, we discuss everything from how to make friends in Korea to choosing the right school for you.
Kim has been living and teaching in South Korea for over eight years and is a great resource for anyone interested in the ESL teacher lifestyle. She has worked in the Korean public education system for a long time as both an Elementary Teacher and University Professor and currently holds a position as Visiting Professor for a Korean National University where she teaches English as a second language. She's traveled to 28 countries in 8 years while teaching in Korea, paid off debt, and acquired her master's without taking on a single loan. That's the power of a good ESL job. Have I piqued your interest? Check out the full interview below! But first, some information about our upcoming Instagram Live with Kim!
Have questions about Korea? Join the Instagram Live Q&A Saturday, February 5th at 7PM PST
This is your opportunity to ask Kim any questions you have about teaching abroad, travel, or anything else you might like to know! We're going live for a 30-minute interview so Kim can update us on the latest in Korea and answer any questions you might have. Follow @alonewithpeter on Instagram to take part in the Q&A or to watch it after the fact. We will be going live at 7PM PST, 10PM EST. I hope to see you there!
Please enjoy this transcript of my interview with TEFL Teacher and world traveler Kimberly Rodriguez. (
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26 Living in Korea: Dating, food trips, and the challenges of a religious nomad with Kim Rodriguez
24 jan 2022· Alone With Peter
We're back for part 2 of our interview with TEFL Teacher and World Traveler Kimberly Rodriguez. In this episode, we discover where Kim's love of travel came from, how she was introduced to the idea of teaching English as a second language, and what her initial experience in Korea was like. We also discuss the challenges of dating in a foreign country, making trips revolving solely around food (food trips are the best!), and the challenges of being a practicing Christian while traveling and living abroad.
Kim has been living and teaching in South Korea for over eight years and is a great resource for anyone interested in the ESL teacher lifestyle. She has worked in the Korean public education system for a long time as both an Elementary Teacher and University Professor and currently holds a position as Visiting Professor for a Korean National University where she teaches English as a second language.
Please enjoy this transcript of my interview with TEFL Teacher and world traveler Kimberly Rodriguez. (@lil_miz_kimbo)
*Transcripts may contain a few typos. With interviews ranging from 1-2 hours, it can be difficult to catch minor errors. Enjoy!
Listen on Apple Listen on Spotify Listen on Stitcher Listen on Podchaser Listen on Apple Listen on Spotify Listen on Stitcher Listen on PodchaserKim's Backstory: Why live in South Korea?
Peter Kersting: Now in the previous episode, we talked about what it's like to live abroad long term, as well as some of those challenges she's experienced as the world continues to transform back to, quote-unquote, normalcy. So we talked about that, but what led her abroad in the first place? Today, we'll be discussing Kim's backstory, as well as some of the unique challenges she continues to experience as a Catholic expat in Asia.
Peter Kersting: Kim, we ended the episode with a little bit of a cliffhanger. You told the story of when you first decided to move abroad. I didn't know that you got your masters in South Korea, actually. So that was really interesting to me. But you got your psych degree in Southern California, and you were working three jobs. What was it that said… Okay, I ge
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25 Living Abroad Long Term with TEFL Teacher Kimberly Rodriguez
17 jan 2022· Alone With Peter
28 countries in 8 years….on a teacher's salary! Our guest today isTEFL Teacher and World Traveler Kimberly Rodriguez. Kim joins us from Busan, South Korea where she has been living and teaching for over eight years. She has worked in the Korean public education system for a long time as both an Elementary Teacher and University Professor and currently holds a position as Visiting Professor for a Korean National University where she teaches English as a second language.
Please enjoy this transcript of my interview with TEFL Teacher and world traveler Kimberly Rodriguez. (@lil_miz_kimbo)
Transcripts may contain a few typos. With interviews ranging from 1-2 hours, it can be difficult to catch minor errors. Enjoy!
Peter Kersting: Welcome to Alone with Peter, I'm your host, and despite what the name of the show seems to imply, it isn't really all about me. Alone with Peter is a variety show for and about aspiring entrepreneurs, digital nomads, creatives, and people seeking personal growth.
Peter Kersting: Each guest on this show has something different to offer. They come from a variety of different professional disciplines, and they're all in different stages of their careers. Each episode tells a specific chapter of our guest's journey, helping us understand what motivates them, who they are, and how they developed their talents over time.
Peter Kersting: Today's guest is Kimberly Rodriguez, who is joining us from Busan, South Korea. Kim has been living and teaching abroad for over eight years. She's worked in the Korean public education system for a long time as both an elementary teacher and a university professor. She currently holds a position as Visiting Professor for a Korean National University where she teaches English as a second language. The hope is that if this guest's journey resonates with you, that they can provide actionable, practical tips for you on your own journey. With that in mind, I want to introduce today's guest, Kimberly Rodriguez, who is joining us from Busan, South Korea.
Peter Kersting: Kim has been living and teaching abroad for over eight years. She's worked in the Korean public education system for a long time as both an elementary teacher and a university professor. She currently holds a position as visiting professor for a Korean national university where she teaches English as a second language.
Peter Kersting: Kim is a devout Catholic, an avid traveler, and a fellow foodie; three things that helped us connect when our paths crossed in South Korea. If you're interested in seeing what Kim is up to on a regular basis, you can follow her on Instagram @lil_miz_kimbo
Peter Kersting: I'll put links to Kim's social media on my website PeterKersting.com where, by the way, you can check out the full transcript of the show and links to any relevant information. Now, I mentioned before, we do three-part interviews with our guests. So, one final note I want to mention about this particular interview with Kim. In Part 1, we're going to be talking about living abroad long-term and what it's been like for her surviving the pandemic as an expat in South Korea.
Disclaimer about Covid Information
Peter Kersting: Now, the situation with the coronavirus is constantly changing. So as of the time of this episode, things probably don't look the same as when this was recorded. Lucky for us, Kim is willing to give us an update about her experience with the current state of events in South Korea after these three interviews have played out, so
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Episódios

43 Stop Making Excuses. Learn to Prioritize Travel Now with Mari Escobar

42 Traveling the World with a 9-to-5 Job – 54 Countries and Counting with Mari Escobar

41 Where to Next? World Travel and Finding a Work-Life Balance with Mari Escobar

40 Work Smarter, Be Happier, Live Better – Actionable Advice from John’s Crazy Socks

39 Creating a platform for positive change… with John’s Crazy Socks

38 Spreading Happiness: The Origin Story of John’s Crazy Socks

37 Moving Abroad -Tips for Nomads and Expats with David McNeill

36 So you wanna learn Japanese? Language tips and adapting to change with David McNeill

35 Embracing Culture and Mastering Japanese with David McNeill of Expat Empire

34 Tips for Mobility and Training: How to Use Physical Therapy as Preventative Medicine with Dr. Dan Maggio

33 Pain, Your Brain, and Holistic Healing with Dr. Dan Maggio

32 Move Past Pain and Improve Your Fitness Life with Doctor Dan Maggio

31 Punch Fear in the Face and Find Success: Learn to Start

30 Invest in Your Future – How to Make Smart Money Moves with Tanner Combias

29 Living Off Index Funds – Competitive Tennis and World Travel with Tanner Combias

28 Escape from Corporate America – Tennis Then Travel with Tanner Combias

Up Next on Alone with Peter – Tanner Combias

27 Pro Tips for Living and Teaching in Asia with Kim Rodriguez

26 Living in Korea: Dating, food trips, and the challenges of a religious nomad with Kim Rodriguez

25 Living Abroad Long Term with TEFL Teacher Kimberly Rodriguez