Episódios
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Kristallnacht was the violent uprising against German Jews in November 1938 that was the opening to the eventual genocide of six million Europeans Jews—and then millions of others—during World War II. This final episode of Good Assassins Season 2 tells the story of Herschel Grynszpan, the young man whose story is at the dead center of the Holocaust. He became an assassin, and the assassination he committed on November 7, 1938 in Paris is the spark that set off the inferno that was the Nazi Holocaust. In 1938 Herschel Grynszpan was just 17 years old.
This episode contains interviews with:
• Joseph Matthews: author of the historical novel about Herschel Grynszpan called Everyone Has Their Reasons praised as a "A tragic, gripping Orwellian tale of an orphan turned assassin in pre-World War II Paris..."
• Armin Fuhrer: journalist, archivist, and historian who wrote Herschel: The Assassination of Herschel Grynszpan on November 7, 1938 and The Beginning of the Holocaust
• Herman Kempinsky (Ziering): Holocaust survivor and former president of the Society of the Survivors of the Riga Ghetto. Clips from interviews with Lore Oppenheimer and Hermann Ziering from the Claude Lanzmann Shoah Collection. Created by Claude Lanzmann during the filming of "Shoah," used by permission of United States Holocaust Memorial Museum and Yad Vashem. © United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, Yad Vashem, State of Israel. For more information visit USHMM
• Jonathan Kirsch: author of the book, The Short, Strange Life of Herschel Grynszpan: A Boy Avenger, a Nazi Diplomat, and a Murder in Paris. Clip from interview with Los Angeles Review of Books
Learn more at diversionaudio.com/good-assassins
“Good Assassins” is a production of Diversion Audio, in association with iHeartPodcasts. Featuring the voices of Matthew Amendt, Orlagh Cassidy, Raphael Corkhill, Manoel Felciano, Sean Gormley, Mikaela Izquierdo, Lenne Klingaman, Andrew Polk, John Pirkis, Steve Routman.
This season is hosted by Stephan Talty and written by C.D. Carpenter. Produced and directed by Kevin Thomsen for Real Jetpacks Productions. Story Editing by Jacob Bronstein with editorial direction from Scott Waxman. Additional research and reporting by Sophie McNulty. Theme music by Tyler Cash. Sound Design, Mixing, and Mastering by Paul Goodrich. Sound Editing by Justin Kilpatrick. Executive Producers: Jacob Bronstein, Mark Francis and Scott Waxman for Diversion Audio.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Virginia Hall was back in occupied France, but she was no longer working for the British. She was an agent of the OSS, the forerunner of the CIA. Virginia was living in the farmhouse of a respected Resistance leader. She was spending her existence in disguise as an old woman, decked out in multiple wool skirts, makeshift prosthetics, and dyed gray hair; all the while constantly walking by wanted posters stapled around town with sketches of The Limping Lady. But this new life promised Virginia something she’d been waiting for since she’d had to flee France almost 18 months earlier: the opportunity to take the fight directly to the Nazis.
The Maquis was a new faction of French, British, and German freedom fighters. They were scrappy guerrilla warfare fighters who sabotaged German trains, trucks, and tanks. In May of 1944, Virginia had split Colonel Vessereau’s Maquis faction into smaller groups of twenty-five fighters each, allowing them to continue working in secret without attracting attention from the Nazis. The Maquis were ecstatic to be led by a real secret agent, though they were slightly put-off by the sight of Virginia in disguise as an elderly, limping woman.
By late May of 1944, French resistors were getting antsy. They’d been told to expect the arrival of the Americans, who were planning their invasion of Europe. And every day of waiting saw the Nazis become more and more brutal, as they upped their retaliations against the French citizenry. The Germans were expecting the American invasion too, and they wanted to dwindle French forces as much as possible.
On June 6, 1944 over 150,000 American, British, and Canadian troops stormed the beaches of Normandy, France and led the invasion against the Germans. It was the beginning of the end for the Nazi occupation of France—and is regarded as the turning of the tide for all of World War II.
This episode contains interviews with:
• Brad Catling: great nephew of Virginia Hall
• Richard Lucas: radio enthusiast and author of Axis Sally: The American Voice of Nazi Germany, the first biography of Mildred Gillars AKA Axis Sally
• Karen Schaefer: worked at the CIA for 26 years in Latin America, Europe, Afghanistan and Iraq; she was Chief of Base and held leadership positions including Chief of Operations, Directorate of Science and Technology; Deputy Associate Director of Military Affairs; and Deputy Chief of Counterintelligence, Near East Division
Learn more at diversionaudio.com/good-assassins“Good Assassins” is a production of Diversion Audio, in association with iHeartPodcasts. Featuring the voices of Matthew Amendt, Orlagh Cassidy, Raphael Corkhill, Manoel Felciano, Sean Gormley, Mikaela Izquierdo, Lenne Klingaman, Andrew Polk, John Pirkis, Steve Routman.
This season is hosted by Stephan Talty and written by C.D. Carpenter. Produced and directed by Kevin Thomsen for Real Jetpacks Productions. Story Editing by Jacob Bronstein with editorial direction from Scott Waxman. Additional research and reporting by Sophie McNulty. Theme music by Tyler Cash. Sound Design, Mixing, and Mastering by Paul Goodrich. Sound Editing by Justin Kilpatrick. Executive Producers: Jacob Bronstein, Mark Francis and Scott Waxman for Diversion Audio.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Virginia Hall’s prison cell in northeastern Spain was something out of a nightmare. Hall imagined the moment in which the Spanish police would hand her over to the Gestapo and their glee at having finally captured "The Limping Lady." Hall knew the Nazis wouldn’t risk letting her escape. They’d transfer her to a secret facility, interrogate her, torture her, and kill her. Or sometimes the Nazis kept their prisoners alive and attempted to leverage them against the Allies. Months of psychological torture would give way to more physical punishments. Dousing with freezing water. Electric shocks. Beatings and cutting. This was the way of the Nazis.
Virginia's Hall's American nationality was maybe the one thing that could save her. In late 1942, Spain was still considered technically neutral in the war. The Spanish dictator Francisco Franco had offered Hitler Spain’s allegiance in return for aid in nation-building. There was a division of Spanish volunteers fighting for the German army, but Spain still remained reluctant and fickle.
Andrew Orr says, "Franco's regime is ideologically complex and people still fight over whether or not it was fascist or just really authoritarian and traditionalist. Regardless of how anyone's individual sees it, the regime was very friendly to Nazi Germany and especially fascist Italy because Italy and Germany had backed Franco in the civil war. So Spain tended politically to like the Axis powers a lot."
But Virginia Hall’s capture by the Spanish was too big a threat to the British. Hall knew too much, and the Nazis could assume that the British would change battle strategy once the Special Operations Executive, Hall’s intelligence agency, discovered she’d been captured. Hall’s information would be useless to the Axis Powers, and so she was as good as dead.
This episode contains interviews with:
• Andrew Orr: a professor in the Department of History at Kansas State University, a specialist in modern military history, intelligence operations in the Middle East, imperialism, civil-military relations, and the history of French Communist Party identity; author of Women and the French Army
• Chris Costa: Executive Director of the International Spy Museum, a 34-year veteran of the Department of Defense, and he served 25 years in the United States Army working in counterintelligence, human intelligence and with special operations forces in Central America, Europe, and the Middle East.
• Judith Pearson: expert on Virginia Hall and author of the book The Wolves at the Door: The True Story of America’s Greatest Female Spy
• Dr. Ludivine Broch: A scholar of World War II French history and lecturer at the University of Westminster, UK; Editor of Contemporary European History, associate fellow of the Birbeck Institute for the study of Antisemitism; co-founder of the French History Network
• Brad Catling: great nephew of Virginia Hall
Learn more at diversionaudio.com/good-assassins“Good Assassins” is a production of Diversion Audio, in association with iHeartPodcasts. Featuring the voices of Matthew Amendt, Orlagh Cassidy, Raphael Corkhill, Manoel Felciano, Sean Gormley, Mikaela Izquierdo, Lenne Klingaman, Andrew Polk, John Pirkis, Steve Routman.
This season is hosted by Stephan Talty and written by C.D. Carpenter. Produced and directed by Kevin Thomsen for Real Jetpacks Productions. Story Editing by Jacob Bronstein with editorial direction from Scott Waxman. Additional research and reporting by Sophie McNulty. Theme music by Tyler Cash. Sound Design, Mixing, and Mastering by Paul Goodrich. Sound Editing by Justin Kilpatrick. Executive Producers: Jacob Bronstein, Mark Francis and Scott Waxman for Diversion Audio.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Virginia Hall’s identity was exposed. Now she had to get out of France and into Spain, and that meant an excruciating climb over 30 miles of tumultuous mountain terrain. Virginia knew that attempting the trek alone would mean death, especially given that she’d be hiking with her prosthetic leg. Luckily, Perpignan, the town she’d landed in, had a Resistance contact she knew fairly well. A man known to her by his codename: Gilbert.
Edward Stourton: "If they were found out, things could be very, very nasty indeed and many of them who were caught went off into camps in Germany. A lot of 'em died. A lot of 'em died in really awful ways. The Germans had a system called ‘Nacht und Nebel’, Night and Fog, which meant that people just disappeared into the system of concentration camps, and nobody knew where they were. Which of course was intended to frighten anybody considering, going onto the wrong side and, and joining an escape line and helping people to get over over the Pyrenees."
This episode contains interviews with:
• Edward Stourton: BBC broadcaster who made a commemorative trek across the Pyrenees some 70 years after Virginia Hall; author of the book Cruel Crossing: Escaping Hitler Across the Pyrenees
• Judith Pearson: expert on Virginia Hall and author of the book The Wolves at the Door: The True Story of America’s Greatest Female Spy
Learn more at diversionaudio.com/good-assassins“Good Assassins” is a production of Diversion Audio, in association with iHeartPodcasts. Featuring the voices of Matthew Amendt, Orlagh Cassidy, Raphael Corkhill, Manoel Felciano, Sean Gormley, Mikaela Izquierdo, Lenne Klingaman, Andrew Polk, John Pirkis, Steve Routman.
This season is hosted by Stephan Talty and written by C.D. Carpenter. Produced and directed by Kevin Thomsen for Real Jetpacks Productions. Story Editing by Jacob Bronstein with editorial direction from Scott Waxman. Additional research and reporting by Sophie McNulty. Theme music by Tyler Cash. Sound Design, Mixing, and Mastering by Paul Goodrich. Sound Editing by Justin Kilpatrick. Executive Producers: Jacob Bronstein, Mark Francis and Scott Waxman for Diversion Audio.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Virginia Hall had been expecting company. One of the Resistance leaders in France had informed her of a new courier that could be of use to HECKLER, Virginia’s faction of the Resistance. But what Virginia didn’t know was that the courier was Robert Alesh—a Nazi operative who had managed to infiltrate the Resistance while posing as a priest. Right away, Virginia suspected something was off.
This episode contains interviews with:
• Karen Schaefer: worked for the CIA for 26 years on assignments overseas in Latin America, Europe, Afghanistan and Iraq, where she was Chief of Base and holding several different leadership positions including Chief of Operations, Directorate of Science and Technology; Deputy Associate Director of Military Affairs; and Deputy Chief of Counterintelligence, Near East Division.
• Andrew Orr: a professor in the Department of History at Kansas State University, a specialist in modern military history, intelligence operations in the Middle East, imperialism, civil-military relations, and the history of French Communist Party identity; author of Women and the French Army
• Chris Costa: Executive Director of the International Spy Museum, a 34-year veteran of the Department of Defense, and he served 25 years in the United States Army working in counterintelligence, human intelligence and with special operations forces in Central America, Europe, and the Middle East.
Learn more at diversionaudio.com/good-assassins“Good Assassins” is a production of Diversion Audio, in association with iHeartPodcasts. Featuring the voices of Matthew Amendt, Orlagh Cassidy, Raphael Corkhill, Manoel Felciano, Sean Gormley, Mikaela Izquierdo, Lenne Klingaman, Andrew Polk, John Pirkis, Steve Routman.
This season is hosted by Stephan Talty and written by C.D. Carpenter. Produced and directed by Kevin Thomsen for Real Jetpacks Productions. Story Editing by Jacob Bronstein with editorial direction from Scott Waxman. Additional research and reporting by Sophie McNulty. Theme music by Tyler Cash. Sound Design, Mixing, and Mastering by Paul Goodrich. Sound Editing by Justin Kilpatrick. Executive Producers: Jacob Bronstein, Mark Francis and Scott Waxman for Diversion Audio.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Robert Alesh’s hunt for “The Limping Lady” brings him to the doorstep of Resistance operative Dr. Jean Rousset. Alesh tricks the doctor into believing he is a new courier for the French Resistance. In reality, he was a Nazi spy working directly for infamous SS officer Klaus Barbie.
Virginia Hall had successfully managed to save a British pilot from German clutches, but the rescue came with a cost. She’d exposed her alias to the Nazis and now she had to move. Virginia abandons her safe house and sets up another. Up to this point, Virginia could move about in France without much push-back. She could use her status as an American to fend off a stint in a German prison so long as she wasn’t actively stirring up trouble. It was still the middle of 1941, and the US hadn’t officially entered the War.
Between her rescue of the British pilot and Alesh’s visit to Dr. Rousset’s home, The Limping Lady had become a major thorn in the side of the SS. She had managed to gather intel of German missions and plots to target British strongholds in France that gave the Brits an edge. The Limping Lady was considered by the SS to be the leader of a new Resistance network named HECKLER, that supplied Resistance members with weaponry, housing, and escape routes out of the country. In reality, Virginia wasn’t just the leader of HECKLER, but the founder.
This episode contains interviews with:
• Christopher Dillon: a senior lecturer of modern German history at King's College London. In 2015, he published a book called Dachau and the SS: A Schooling in Violence
• Abe Malnik: A Holocaust survivor and former prisoner at the Dachau concentraition camp. Contains clips from interviews with Abe Malnik from United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Collection, Gift of the Holocaust Eyewitness Project and Edith Fierst. © Holocaust Eyewitness Project. For more info visit USHMM
Learn more at diversionaudio.com/good-assassins“Good Assassins” is a production of Diversion Audio, in association with iHeartPodcasts. Featuring the voices of Matthew Amendt, Orlagh Cassidy, Raphael Corkhill, Manoel Felciano, Sean Gormley, Mikaela Izquierdo, Lenne Klingaman, Andrew Polk, John Pirkis, Steve Routman.
This season is hosted by Stephan Talty and written by C.D. Carpenter. Produced and directed by Kevin Thomsen for Real Jetpacks Productions. Story Editing by Jacob Bronstein with editorial direction from Scott Waxman. Additional research and reporting by Sophie McNulty. Theme music by Tyler Cash. Sound Design, Mixing, and Mastering by Paul Goodrich. Sound Editing by Justin Kilpatrick. Executive Producers: Jacob Bronstein, Mark Francis and Scott Waxman for Diversion Audio.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Virginia Hall joins the UK's spy agency, the Special Operations Executive. The SOE was created to "set Europe ablaze" and wreak havoc on the battlefield: sabotage plus a little espionage, paramilitary operations, make things blow up.
After spy training, Virginia heads into the field in Lyon, France, a strategic location for the Allies. They're planting the seeds of a Resistance there and it's a hotspot for Nazi activity. Virginia hooks into the Resistance network but the walls around her begin to push in. The USA, which had remained neutral in the War up to this point, makes broader shows of support for the Allies. And it means Virginia Hall will soon lose her open status—and her cover—as an American newspaper reporter working in France.
In her first operation to save a downed British pilot, Virginia has a chilling encounter with Gestapo officers that has fateful consequences for her larger mission.
This episode contain interviews with:
• Chris Costa: Executive Director of the International Spy Museum, a 34-year veteran of the Department of Defense, and he served 25 years in the United States Army working in counterintelligence, human intelligence and with special operations forces in Central America, Europe, and the Middle East
• Judith Pearson: author of The Wolves at the Door: The True Story of America’s Greatest Female Spy, the first biography to tell the story of the amazing Virginia Hall
• Brad Catling: great nephew of Virginia Hall
• Andrew Orr: a professor in the Department of History at Kansas State University, a specialist in modern military history, intelligence operations in the Middle East, imperialism, civil-military relations, and the history of French Communist Party identity; author of Women and the French Army
Learn more at diversionaudio.com/good-assassins“Good Assassins” is a production of Diversion Audio, in association with iHeartPodcasts. Featuring the voices of Matthew Amendt, Orlagh Cassidy, Raphael Corkhill, Manoel Felciano, Sean Gormley, Mikaela Izquierdo, Lenne Klingaman, Andrew Polk, John Pirkis, Steve Routman.
This season is hosted by Stephan Talty and written by C.D. Carpenter. Produced and directed by Kevin Thomsen for Real Jetpacks Productions. Story Editing by Jacob Bronstein with editorial direction from Scott Waxman. Additional research and reporting by Sophie McNulty. Theme music by Tyler Cash. Sound Design, Mixing, and Mastering by Paul Goodrich. Sound Editing by Justin Kilpatrick. Executive Producers: Jacob Bronstein, Mark Francis and Scott Waxman for Diversion Audio.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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A Nazi spy is tasked with uncovering underground Allied resistance networks. He was favored by the SS as a top hunter. Robert Alesh was a Luxembourger priest better known in France by his alias: "Father Robert Ackuin." The raids, arrests, and executions that Alesh’s treacherous work made possible set British intelligence back months. Alesh’s time as a priest served him well in his search for Jews and the Allied spies. Alesh begins working for one of the most evil men in history: the head of the Nazi Gestapo in Lyon, France: Klaus Barbie. Alesh receives his first hard evidence of the existence of “The Limping Lady,” the Allied spy running prison breaks and sabotage operations. So Robert Alesh and Virginia Hall begin a game of cat and mouse.
This episode contains interviews with:
• Dr. Ludivine Broch: A scholar of World War II French history and lecturer at the University of Westminster, UK; Editor of Contemporary European History, associate fellow of the Birbeck Institute for the study of Antisemitism; co-founder of the French History Network
• Chris Costa: Executive Director of the International Spy Museum, a 34-year veteran of the Department of Defense, and he served 25 years in the United States Army working in counterintelligence, human intelligence and with special operations forces in Central America, Europe, and the Middle East.
• Karen Schaefer: worked for the CIA for 26 years on assignments overseas in Latin America, Europe, Afghanistan and Iraq, where she was Chief of Base and holding several different leadership positions including Chief of Operations, Directorate of Science and Technology; Deputy Associate Director of Military Affairs; and Deputy Chief of Counterintelligence, Near East Division.
• Thomas Kselman: professor emeritus at Notre Dame University, specialist in French religious history
Learn more at diversionaudio.com/good-assassins“Good Assassins” is a production of Diversion Audio, in association with iHeartPodcasts. Featuring the voices of Matthew Amendt, Orlagh Cassidy, Raphael Corkhill, Manoel Felciano, Sean Gormley, Mikaela Izquierdo, Lenne Klingaman, Andrew Polk, John Pirkis, Steve Routman.
This season is hosted by Stephan Talty and written by C.D. Carpenter. Produced and directed by Kevin Thomsen for Real Jetpacks Productions. Story Editing by Jacob Bronstein with editorial direction from Scott Waxman. Additional research and reporting by Sophie McNulty. Theme music by Tyler Cash. Sound Design, Mixing, and Mastering by Paul Goodrich. Sound Editing by Justin Kilpatrick. Executive Producers: Jacob Bronstein, Mark Francis and Scott Waxman for Diversion Audio.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Virginia Hall enlists in France's organization that provided medical assistance to soldiers on the battlefield. It would be a grueling endeavor. Virginia is given basic medical training, learning how to apply tourniquets and bandages on some of the worst wartime injuries recorded in human history. They were supposed to work in the echoes of gunfire, long after the battle was over, but she often found herself closer to firefights and exploding shells than she expected. Virginia was given a job as an ambulance driver and stationed near the Maginot Line. She was to witness hell.
It only took a few months for the work to become both physically and emotionally overwhelming. Virginia finds her dreams haunted by the dislocated bones and missing limbs of the blood-soaked soldiers.
Virginia leaves France for Britain. She attends a cocktail party of one Ms. Vera Atkins, an anti-fascist sympathizer. There, Virginia sets herself on the path that would change her life--and eventually the entire course of World War II.
Learn more at diversionaudio.com/good-assassins“Good Assassins” is a production of Diversion Audio, in association with iHeartPodcasts. Featuring the voices of Matthew Amendt, Orlagh Cassidy, Raphael Corkhill, Manoel Felciano, Sean Gormley, Mikaela Izquierdo, Lenne Klingaman, Andrew Polk, John Pirkis, Steve Routman.
This season is hosted by Stephan Talty and written by C.D. Carpenter. Produced and directed by Kevin Thomsen for Real Jetpacks Productions. Story Editing by Jacob Bronstein with editorial direction from Scott Waxman. Additional research and reporting by Sophie McNulty. Theme music by Tyler Cash. Sound Design, Mixing, and Mastering by Paul Goodrich. Sound Editing by Justin Kilpatrick. Executive Producers: Jacob Bronstein, Mark Francis and Scott Waxman for Diversion Audio.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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The story of one of the most consequential spies in American history. Her name was Virginia Hall, and she was known to the Nazis as "The Limping Lady." The Nazis called her “the most dangerous of all Allied spies.” From spy to resistance leader, her story is a thrilling tale of a woman whose efforts in the face of fascism, racism, sexism, and ableism saved thousands of lives.
There’s maybe no figure of espionage in all of history like Virginia Hall. She embodies a lot of what’s amazing about fictional spies like James Bond or Ethan Hunt or Sydney Bristow (from the TV show Alias). But unlike all those spies, Virginia Hall was very real. And she changed the course of history.
Coming up on Good Assassins Season 2: a devious and double-crossing Nazi priest, elaborate dental work and disguises, and a dangerous trek across a mountain range to escape the most terrifying villains in world history.
We’ll bring you daring sabotage plots, thrilling espionage, and brutal war stories as we follow Virginia Hall’s ascent from clerk to international spy to guerilla war leader. You’ve never heard a story like this.Episode 1, "The Greatest Spy of WWII" contains clips from interviews with Lore Oppenheimer and Hermann Ziering from the Claude Lanzmann Shoah Collection. Created by Claude Lanzmann during the filming of "Shoah," used by permission of United States Holocaust Memorial Museum and Yad Vashem. © United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, Yad Vashem, State of Israel. For more information visit USHMM
Learn more at diversionaudio.com/good-assassins
“Good Assassins” is a production of Diversion Audio, in association with iHeartPodcasts. Featuring the voices of Matthew Amendt, Orlagh Cassidy, Raphael Corkhill, Manoel Felciano, Sean Gormley, Mikaela Izquierdo, Lenne Klingaman, Andrew Polk, John Pirkis, Steve Routman.
This season is hosted by Stephan Talty and written by C.D. Carpenter. Produced and directed by Kevin Thomsen for Real Jetpacks Productions. Story Editing by Jacob Bronstein with editorial direction from Scott Waxman. Additional research and reporting by Sophie McNulty. Theme music by Tyler Cash. Sound Design, Mixing, and Mastering by Paul Goodrich. Sound Editing by Justin Kilpatrick. Executive Producers: Jacob Bronstein, Mark Francis and Scott Waxman for Diversion Audio.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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This season of Good Assassins is the dramatic story of a different kind of spy: the greatest spy of World War II. A mysterious agent is strategically dismantling the Nazis’ violent grasp on France. They send a devious double-agent to hunt down “The Limping Lady” before she threatens their genocidal plans. But Virginia Hall was tougher than they ever expected. With deep archival research, rare primary source tape, expert interviews, powerful recreations, and a heavy dose of thriller, author and journalist Stephan Talty is back with Good Assassins: Season 2.
Run for your life.
Learn more at diversionaudio.com/good-assassins
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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The woman in the jail cell was proving to be a problem. It was November 13, 1942, and she’d arrived in San Juan de las Abadesas the day before. She was discovered at the train station with three strange men. When the Spanish officers demanded to see their passports, none of them could produce one. The woman was separated from the group and thrown into a cold, isolated cell. The notes in her arrest file only deepened the mystery of her identity. Her Spanish was formal and her accent sounded French to their ears. Among other notes in the woman’s arrest report were her dirty clothes, and a general appearance that made it seem like she hadn’t slept or eaten well in days. And notably, she couldn’t move without displaying a bad limp. Whoever this woman was, she certainly didn’t belong in San Juan de las Abadesas, a small mountain town in the far northeast of Spain just over the border with France. With her formal Spanish and slight French accent, the woman was obviously not a Spanish citizen. So she was transferred to Miranda del Ebro prison some 40 miles away, outside the town of Figueres, where her only comfort was a blanket as dingy and tattered as her dress. Though they didn’t know it at the time, the Spanish Guard had managed to achieve what the Nazis had not, despite years of intensive searching: they had captured Virginia Hall, a woman who would go down in the annals of history as the greatest spy of World War II.
Learn more at diversionaudio.com/good-assassins
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Good Assassins fans, this is Stephan Talty, jumping back into your podcast feed with some exciting news: Good Assassins Season 2 is coming soon!
We can’t tell you all the details of the incredible new story we’re exploring for Season 2 — not just yet — but trust me: it’s another good one. There are a few million of you out there that listened to Season 1, so we know the pressure’s on. But we’re pretty excited to say: we’ve uncovered another thrilling, mysterious spy story for you to dig your ears into.
I can tell you that Good Assassins Season 2 does revisit the era of World War II, it does feature some frightening Nazi villains, it does travel some interesting trails into secret missions and spycraft — and most importantly, it tells the story of a spy.
Not just any spy, but someone that will amaze and thrill you, that will impress you with their dedication, fascinate you with their ability, and humble you with their courage in the face of evil.
We’ll be able to tell you more soon, but for now, stay tuned to this podcast feed, tell your friends to follow Good Assassins on Apple Podcasts, on the iHeartRadio app, and all the places they follow podcasts… because Good Assassins is coming.
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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We asked listeners for your questions: Things you didn’t hear in "Hunting the Butcher" and were curious about, or other stories the podcast got you thinking about. Many of your questions prompted new research. In this episode, Stephan Talty answers listeners' questions and digs deeper into the issues the audience brought up.
We received amazing queries from all over the world: Australia, New Zealand, Canada, the UK, the US and elsewhere. Some of them were from families of Holocaust survivors and one was even from a guy who worked with a former SS officer working "undercover." A lot of listeners' questions prompted Stephan Talty to research additional aspects of Mossad’s Herbert Cukurs mission.
Good Assassins: Hunting the Butcher came out of author Stephan Talty's work on his book, *The Good Assassin.* Click here to: Buy the Book
Questions answered on this episode include:
• *I have a question about something mentioned in one of the early episodes, about Cukurs having supporters. I’m just really curious to understand how people would claim that he’s innocent with all the testimonials from victims that you have and have shared. Is there any evidence pointing to innocence?"
• “I have a question about Mio and other spies living in Europe. How would they keep their cover in a place like Paris without the French government knowing — or did they know?”
• “I was wondering why the German [Statute of Limitations] law would apply to Cukurs even though he was a Latvian citizen. Could he still not have been prosecuted in his home country?”
• *Mio and the team seem to have a formalized “judgment” document or speech or something that they intend to read to Cukurs at his execution. It’s portrayed as a sort of all encompassing legal document that functions as the predetermined outcome and opinion of judge, jury, and executioner. Was this sort of process or document used because of legal, judicial, or Mossad internal policy reasons? Who wrote the “judgment” and at what point in the government decision making process is this “judgment” made and written out, i.e., did the high level government officials that named Czukurs for execution write this, did Mossad, or did Mio or Yariv themselves write it? Was this a common occurrence in Mossad operations or in government sponsored assassinations at the time?"
• Written and Hosted by STEPHAN TALTY
• Produced and Directed by SCOTT WAXMAN and JACOB BRONSTEIN
• Executive Producers: SCOTT WAXMAN and MARK FRANCIS
• Story Editor: JACOB BRONSTEIN
• Editorial direction: SCOTT WAXMAN and MANGESH HATTIKUDUR
• Editing, mixing, and sound design: MARK FRANCIS
• Theme Music by TYLER CASH
• Archival Researcher: ADAM SHAPIRO
• Thanks to OREN ROSENBAUM
Learn more about “Good Assassins: Hunting the Butcher” at DiversionPodcasts.com
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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The Cukurs operation barely scratches the surface of what Mossad has done over the years. Mossad has been, “involved in special operations and activity in the service of the State of Israel, such as the pursuit of Nazi criminals.” This episode explores some of the most important operations the agency has carried out. Stephan Talty describes missions you’ve probably never heard of but that shaped the Middle East and the whole world.
The episode contains interviews with Robert Baer, accomplished former CIA agent, intelligence expert and security analyst, bestselling author of several books including *See No Evil: The True Story of a Ground Soldier in the CIA's War Against Terrorism* which was the basis for the film Syriana, in which George Clooney's character is based on Baer and H. Keith Melton, intelligence historian and expert on espionage tradecraft.
Good Assassins: Hunting the Butcher came out of author Stephan Talty's work on a book called *The Good Assassin.* Click here to Buy the book
THE JET discusses an operation in which the target wasn’t human. In 1963, the Israelis decided they had to have a MIG. At the time, the MIG was the most advanced Soviet fighter plane, and the latest model, the MIG-21, had been purchased by Israel’s neighbors — and enemies — Egypt, Syria, and Iraq.
THE ENGINEER tells the story of Yahya Ayash, the No. 1 bombmaker for Hamas. Ayash was a master of building explosives. Ayash built bombs for Hamas suicide attacks: the Mehola Junction bombing in 1993, the Afula Bus massacre in 1994, the Dizengoff Street bus massacre also in 1994 — at the time, the deadliest suicide bombing in Israeli history with 22 civilians killed and 50 injured — Ayash was also behind the Hadera central station massacre, again in 1994, and many more.
THE SCIENTIST is about the Israeli government's operations to find out if Syria, which had been hostile to their Jewish neighbors for decades, had a nuclear program. Was there anything going on? Were they building plants? Were they thinking of building bombs? There was no evidence on the ground that anything was happening. Israel’s spy satellites were picking up nothing. Still, some people at Mossad had an uneasy feeling.
THE WRONG MAN explores Operation Wrath of God. In 1972, Mossad was thrust into the spotlight when members of the faction of the Palestinian Liberation Organization known as “Black September” took Israeli athletes and coaches hostage at the Munich Olympic Games. A botched German ambush resulted in the murder of nine Israelis, as well as the deaths of the terrorists. It was a catastrophe - for the Olympics, for the Germans, and for the Israelis. Prime Minister Golda Meir quickly approved Operation Wrath of God, a covert Mossad operation to hunt down and kill the planners of the Munich massacre.
SPIES NEVER FORGET tells the story of a Lebanese man named Imad Fayez Mughniyah, the mastermind in a series of terror attacks against Israelis. He was believed to be the chief of staff for Hezbollah and was a link between Iran and terrorist groups. Mossad and Mughniyah were involved in a cat and mouse game for decades. Mossad wanted to kill him and Mughniyah knew it.
THE GENERAL is about a man named Mohammed Suleiman, a general in the Syrian army and one of the main contacts to Iran and Hamas. Israel wanted him gone.
• Written and Hosted by STEPHAN TALTY
• Produced and Directed by SCOTT WAXMAN and JACOB BRONSTEIN
• Executive Producers: SCOTT WAXMAN and MARK FRANCIS
• Story Editor: JACOB BRONSTEIN
• Editorial direction: SCOTT WAXMAN and MANGESH HATTIKUDUR
• Editing, mixing, and sound design: MARK FRANCIS
• Theme Music by TYLER CASH
• Archival Researcher: ADAM SHAPIRO
• Thanks to OREN ROSENBAUM
Learn more about “Good Assassins: Hunting the Butcher” at DiversionPodcasts.com
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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The story of the spy and the murderer isn't over. There is something missing in the story: the answer to the question of *why*. Why did Herbert Cukurs go from being a national hero to a mass murderer? Stephan Talty speaks to some striking characters to try and finally answer that question. It turns out to have more sides than we originally thought.
The opinion of most people was that Cukurs had always been a secret anti-Semite. Before the war, he’d hidden this hatred inside himself. But really he hated Jews. And when the war came, the Nazis gave him a chance to use that hatred. And he did terrible things. End of story.
But that just didn’t fit the facts. So Talty kept looking. And in that search, he found Zelma Shepshelovich. Zelma was a bright, beautiful Jewish girl. During the war, on the day her family had been murdered, Zelma had been hidden by a Latvian guy who was hopelessly in love with her. And she stayed in hiding and learned things that take us to the heart of Cukurs’ life. Her story also involves psychiatric asylums, an escape to Sweden, suicide attempts and much more.
But Zelma's story is mostly about suffering and love and never forgetting. Zelma is the key to knowing the question of *why*. Or at least one side of it.
Good Assassins: Hunting the Butcher came out of author Stephan Talty's work on a book called The Good Assassin: Buy the book
This episode contains interviews with:
• Zelma Shepshelovich, courtesy of The Institute for Visual History and Education at the USC Shoah Foundation
• Naomi Ahimeir, daughter of Zelma Shepshelovich
• Ilya Lensky, Director of the Jews in Latvia Museum in Riga, Latvia
• Dr. Sarah Valente, visiting assisstant professor at The Ackerman Center at The University of Texas at Dallas
• Written and Hosted by STEPHAN TALTY
• Produced and Directed by SCOTT WAXMAN and JACOB BRONSTEIN
• Executive Producers: SCOTT WAXMAN and MARK FRANCIS
• Story Editor: JACOB BRONSTEIN
• Editorial direction: SCOTT WAXMAN and MANGESH HATTIKUDUR
• Editing, mixing, and sound design: MARK FRANCIS
• With the voices of: NICK AFKA THOMAS, OMRI ANGHEL, ANDREW POLK, MINDY ESCOBAR-LEANSE, STEVE ROUTMAN, STEFAN RUDNICKI
• Theme Music by TYLER CASH
• Archival Researcher: ADAM SHAPIRO
• Thanks to OREN ROSENBAUM
Learn more about “Good Assassins: Hunting the Butcher” at DiversionPodcasts.com
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Judgment Day had arrived: February 23, 1965. Herbert Cukurs carried his gun in a leather holster as he boarded the plane to Uruguay and headed off into what he must have imagined was his new life. The men of the Mossad kill team were spread out in various hotels across Montevideo. They woke up early on that February morning and began to get ready for the Butcher’s arrival.
The spy later wrote, “We planned a very brief court-martial in which we intended to read the charges to [Cukurs], in the name of the 30,000 Jews from Riga and Latvia – children, women, the elderly, and men – who had been murdered by him... We wanted him to know that this entire long affair with Anton Kuenzle had been designed only to set the stage for the moment of revenge in the name of his innocent victims. And then we were going to put a bullet in his head.”
Germany's planned amnesty for Nazis was getting more and more international attention. In the US, the NAACP had added its name to Simon Wiesenthal’s letter. Pressure was building, both for the amnesty and against it.
The full debate in the German parliament was scheduled for March 10th, two and a half weeks away. The Mossad team was cutting things close. Maybe they thought the fresher Cukurs’ crimes were in the minds of German legislators, the better it was for their cause. Maybe it just took this long to get the Butcher into position. But they knew they didn’t have a lot of time to mount another mission if things went wrong.
By now, thousands of people around the world had marched against Germany’s amnesty. In Atlanta, Boston, Chicago, New Orleans, Washington, Tel Aviv, and Paris, there were protests. A journalist interviewed one of the marchers in Toronto. She told him, “I am the only survivor of Bergen-Belsen of my entire family. I am so lonely without my relatives.”
At the Casa, the kill team undressed down to their underwear. If the reports had been correct, the encounter would be bloody, and they didn’t want the evidence of a struggle on their clothes. They waited in the hot, humid room, listening to the workers’ banter next door and the noise of their tools. They checked their watches.
This episode contains interviews with Fernando Butazzoni, award-winning journalist and author of the 2020 book on Mossad's Cukurs mission, Los Que Nunca Olvidarán (Those Who Will Never Forget)
“Good Assassins: Hunting the Butcher" came out of Stephan Talty's work on a related book, The Good Assassin. Explore other parts of this story in the book: Buy The Good Assassin
• Written and Hosted by STEPHAN TALTY
• Produced and Directed by SCOTT WAXMAN and JACOB BRONSTEIN
• Executive Producers: SCOTT WAXMAN and MARK FRANCIS
• Story Editor: JACOB BRONSTEIN
• Editorial direction: SCOTT WAXMAN and MANGESH HATTIKUDUR
• Editing, mixing, and sound design: MARK FRANCIS
• With the voices of: NICK AFKA THOMAS, OMRI ANGHEL, ANDREW POLK, MINDY ESCOBAR-LEANSE, STEVE ROUTMAN, STEFAN RUDNICKI
• Theme Music by TYLER CASH
• Archival Researcher: ADAM SHAPIRO
• Thanks to OREN ROSENBAUM
Learn more about “Good Assassins: Hunting the Butcher” at DiversionPodcasts.com
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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The spy was happy to be back home, but his mission wasn’t complete. The final act was still to take place in Uruguay. So in the Mossad apartment in the heart of Paris, the kill team started to plan the assassination. They were going ahead with the plan. The debate in the German Parliament was coming up in a few months. They all hoped a successful mission would influence it.
“Good Assassins: Hunting the Butcher" came out of Stephan Talty's work on a related book, The Good Assassin. Explore other parts of this story in the book: Buy The Good Assassin
There was a lot of work to do. The Mossad boss Yosef Yariv had collected all the documents the spy had sent from the field, including maps of Montevideo and São Paolo, information on hotels and renting cars. He’d written down what they'd to get through passport control and what problems the other team members might face. But they still didn’t have a place where the assassination could be carried out. They didn’t even know how it was going to be carried out.
Mossad wanted everyone to suspect that Israel had carried out the killing but it didn’t want any of its agents to get caught. What they were doing wasn’t legal. Cukurs wasn’t going to get a trial or have a lawyer, like Adolf Eichmann had got after Mossad kidnapped him. They didn’t want Mossad to be the story. They wanted Cukurs to be the story.
So the team members had to carry out the killing, gather their belongings, and head to the airport. They had to get on the plane and get safely back to Europe before Cukurs’ body was discovered. That influenced how the assassination would be carried out. It couldn’t be public. It couldn’t be loud. And the body had to be left out of sight, so that someone didn’t stumble on it and raise the alarm before the agents had left the country.
The team members were almost done with their training in Krav Maga, the Israeli fighting system. Imi Lichtenfeld was working them hard.
They were losing precious time. The clock was ticking and Germany’s vote on the amnesty statute was approaching fast. If the mission didn’t move forward soon, all would be lost.
This episode contains interviews with:
• Eyal Yanilov, co-founder and Chief Instructor of Krav Maga Global
• Fernando Butazzoni, award-winning journalist and author of the 2020 book on Mossad's Cukurs mission, Los Que Nunca Olvidarán (Those Who Will Never Forget)
• Avner Avraham, former Mossad agent and renowned expert on Mossad operations
• Gad Shimron, former Mossad agent, journalist, author of several books on intelligence and history
• Chris Costa, veteran of the Department of Defense. US Army counterintelligence, human intelligence, and Special Operations Forces, currently Executive Director of the International Spy Museum
GOOD ASSASSINS: HUNTING THE BUTCHER
• Written and Hosted by STEPHAN TALTY
• Produced and Directed by SCOTT WAXMAN and JACOB BRONSTEIN
• Executive Producers: SCOTT WAXMAN and MARK FRANCIS
• Story Editor: JACOB BRONSTEIN
• Editorial direction: SCOTT WAXMAN and MANGESH HATTIKUDUR
• Editing, mixing, and sound design: MARK FRANCIS
• With the voices of: NICK AFKA THOMAS, OMRI ANGHEL, ANDREW POLK, MINDY ESCOBAR-LEANSE, STEVE ROUTMAN, STEFAN RUDNICKI
• Theme Music by TYLER CASH
• Archival Researcher: ADAM SHAPIRO
• Thanks to OREN ROSENBAUM
Learn more about “Good Assassins: Hunting the Butcher” at DiversionPodcasts.com
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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By the winter of 1964, the mission was coming into focus. In Brazil, the spy continued to meet with Herbert Cukurs, stoking The Butcher's excitement for his coming wealth and making sure he’d be willing to travel outside of Brazil. Yosef Yariv had chosen his kill team and they were training under the Krav Maga master, Imi Lichtenfeld.
“Good Assassins: Hunting the Butcher" came out of Stephan Talty's work on a related book, The Good Assassin. Explore other parts of this story in the book: Buy The Good Assassin
Herbert Cukurs was getting excited. He needed money, but more importantly, after being a pariah for years, he needed the encouragement that this high roller "Anton Kuenzle" gave him. Mio had sensed almost from the minute he met Cukurs that the guy was a narcissist.
What the spy didn’t know was that Cukurs was also playing a part. He pretended he was gung-ho, but the truth is he was deeply worried by the idea of leaving the country. Decades on the run had made him a worrier. He knew the Jews wanted him. Who’s to say this wasn’t the nightmare he’d been running away from ever since he left Latvia?
Cukurs thought about it. What Anton Kuenzle offered was so tempting. It was maybe his last chance at getting rich and getting his reputation back. It was too good to pass up. He was leaning towards going. But he wasn’t sure.
The spy flew to Uruguay and its capital, Montevideo. He wanted to see if it could work for the final act of the mission. He rented a car, studied the map, and started searching for a house. He needed something that looked like it could serve as the home base for a respectable company. It had to fool the Butcher.
Cukurs arrived in Montevideo a few days later. He was super excited. He probably hadn’t left Brazil in twenty years and now he was on a vacation with all expenses paid.
This was the important thing. Mio was starting to condition Cukurs, getting him to go in and out of strange houses.
This episode contains interviews with:
• Dr. Sarah Valente: visiting assisstant professor at The Ackerman Center at The University of Texas at Dallas. Dr. Valente studies the legacy of World War II and the Holocaust in Brazil.
• Fernando Butazzoni: award-winning journalist and author of the 2020 book on Mossad's Cukurs mission, Los Que Nunca Olvidarán (Those Who Will Never Forget)
• Avner Avraham: former Mossad agent and renowned expert on Mossad operations
• Gad Shimron: former Mossad agent, journalist, author of several books on intelligence and history
GOOD ASSASSINS: HUNTING THE BUTCHER
• Written and Hosted by STEPHAN TALTY
• Produced and Directed by SCOTT WAXMAN and JACOB BRONSTEIN
• Executive Producers: SCOTT WAXMAN and MARK FRANCIS
• Story Editor: JACOB BRONSTEIN
• Editorial direction: SCOTT WAXMAN and MANGESH HATTIKUDUR
• Editing, mixing, and sound design: MARK FRANCIS
• With the voices of: NICK AFKA THOMAS, OMRI ANGHEL, ANDREW POLK, MINDY ESCOBAR-LEANSE, STEVE ROUTMAN, STEFAN RUDNICKI
• Theme Music by TYLER CASH
• Archival Researcher: ADAM SHAPIRO
• Thanks to OREN ROSENBAUM
Learn more about “Good Assassins: Hunting the Butcher” at DiversionPodcasts.com
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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The spy had gotten a step closer to the Butcher. Comparing Israel's mission to assassinate Herbert Cukurs to the US mission to assassinate Osama Bin Laden, the latter was revenge. But when Israel and Mossad decided to kill The Butcher of Latvia, it was to prevent more killing of Jews. Things were starting to heat up with the Statute of Limitations, which was the whole reason for the mission: to stop Germany from giving Nazi killers a free pass for their atrocities. Importantly, a famous Nazi hunter joined the cause: Simon Wiesenthal. Wiesenthal was a master publicist and self-promoter and was obsessed with finding the men and women responsible for the Holocaust and bringing Nazis to justice.
“Good Assassins: Hunting the Butcher" came out of Stephan Talty's work on a related book, The Good Assassin. Explore other parts of this story in the book: Buy The Good Assassin
There was also the question of the assassination method. Mossad had many ways to take someone out, what they called “targeted killings.”
Yosef Yariv's job was to recruit the rest of the team that would fly to South America to join Mio and carry out the sentence on the Butcher. The team would need to train in how to bring down a strong, desperate man who has just realized he’s fighting for his life.
Yariv found a guy. His name was Imi Lichtenfeld. Lichtenfeld had created a street-fighting technique called Krav Maga (“close combat” in Hebrew), which allowed practitioners to inflict the most damage in the shortest possible time. In 1948, the Israel Defense Forces had adopted Krav Maga for training its recruits and named Imi Lichtenfeld Chief Instructor for Physical Fitness. In 1964, Lichtenfeld began to lead secret training sessions with the kill team.
This episode contains interviews with H. Keith Melton, intelligence historian and expert on espionage tradecraft and Eyal Yanilov, co-founder and Chief Instructor of Krav Maga Global.
Written and Hosted by STEPHAN TALTY Produced and Directed by SCOTT WAXMAN and JACOB BRONSTEIN Executive Producers: SCOTT WAXMAN and MARK FRANCIS Story Editor: JACOB BRONSTEIN Editorial direction: SCOTT WAXMAN and MANGESH HATTIKUDUR Editing, mixing, and sound design: MARK FRANCIS With the voices of: NICK AFKA THOMAS, OMRI ANGHEL, ANDREW POLK, MINDY ESCOBAR-LEANSE, STEVE ROUTMAN, STEFAN RUDNICKI Theme Music by TYLER CASH Archival Researcher: ADAM SHAPIRO Thanks to OREN ROSENBAUMLearn more about “Good Assassins: Hunting the Butcher” at DiversionPodcasts.com
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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