Episódios
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Today on Sauna Talk we welcome Charlie from Community Sauna Baths in England.
Who is Community Sauna Baths? Well, they are Community Interest Company, a CIC, who is dedicated to providing affordable sauna sessions to the communities they serve. Currently with four locations, including their flagship locale in Hackney, East London.
Here is where we catch up with Charlie, one of the directors at Community Sauna Baths for this podcast.
Currently Community Sauna Baths are serving thousands of customers from the area. Local Londoners as well as a lot of visitors from abroad. Irish, some Finns, you name it.
Early influencesAs you’ll here, Charlie grew up with the classic toaster oven experience at health clubs. Then, he was deeply affected to the positive, partacking in sauna at the Finnish Church and also Lost Horizons, the pop up social sauna in London.
Feeling a tug to help advance the social communal experience, Charlie leaned in to helping with the ambitious Hackney Baths fundraising project with the British Sauna Society. The fundraising came up short, but it did pave the way towards a more organic project. 2 donated saunas, one from Charlie.
Covid and beyondWe talk about countless hours of donated time to host sessions. How they are learning as we are going, starting slow by serving random members of the public in Hackney London. Slow organic growth. Adding days. Modifying and improving the site. Victoria and Gabrielle building website and marketing.
Community Baths todayThe staff provides a real nice blend of skills. Part of the beauty is that good heat and cold does most of the heavy lifting. Staff supports the good heat and cold, and people benefit from and enjoy the experience.
Looking to grow. Charlie is helping work on a new site. We learn about the South London project, in Peckam, as part of the community garden. Bringing saunas into natural spots in London.
4th one in Normandy. Rob’s project. The first beach sauna in France.
UK affordable and inclusive.
Charlie’s careerCharlie cut his teeth as a management consultant. Great learning experience. Freelance consulting. Started a mushroom farm. Full time. Able to pay himself a salary. Well paying job for staff. Community interest Company. A commercial mind with a non for profit structure.
New community sauna in Bristol. Using profits to seed other new saunas.
Setting the seeds for a community Sauna Network.
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Today on Sauna Talk, we welcome Tom Carlson, a sauna enthusiast and a SaunaTimes public sauna map supporter.
Tom caught the sauna bug in Germany, and brought home his love and appreciation for good heat. And, like many of us, Tom recognizes how good sauna is like a candle that lights another candle. And with this, there are really good saunas dotted all over the world.
Several years ago, we built the SaunaTimes Public Sauna Map. With over 200 entries and counting, there’s a good chance that as you arrive in a new town, you’ll be ale to click through and find a kick ass sauna for you to attend. And for Tom, you’ll hear about his commitment to helping all of us find good saunas wherever we may be. Currently, he and Kevin are SaunaTimes public sauna map champions.
But I would like you to know how I first met Tom. It was a couple Sauna Days ago, at Larsmont Cottages in Two Harbors, Minnesota. A guy walks up to me with a Wisconsin 6 pack in one hand, and outstretches his other hand to shake my hand. “This is for you. You helped me realize how great sauna is. Thank you Glenn, you’ve pretty much changed my life.”
Wow, those are big shoes to wear. However, thankfully we were both bare footed, and we both hit the same sauna bench and shared some kindred spirit thermal action. And like convective heat transfer into hot rocks from protected elements, a logical, long lasting connection was made.
Tom’s TravelsTom lives in Wisconsin USA, and on a whim, came through Minneapolis, and naturally found himself on the bench in my backyard sauna.
We share stories and steam. And are joined with quiet guest Darin from Urban Wing.
As bonus, we enjoy an extended löyly. And if you are driving, please don’t close your eyes, but this extended löyly is for you.
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Today on the Sauna Talk bench, we welcome three guests who are aligned to helping veterans through sauna as a means of healing our heroes.
Their stories are heartfelt, their passions are clear. And for those of us who know sauna, we know that their purpose is meaningful and their success rate undeniable. (ie sauna is good for us!)!
Who is Healing Heroes Saunas? The co-founders, Mike and Josh: as introduction:
Mike LotzerOn the right side of the bench we have, Mike Lotzer. Mike is the Lead Pastor of Mercy Road Church in Burnsville, MN and served in the Army Chaplain Corps. from 2004-2012. Stateside, Mike served as a Casualty Notification Chaplain, Special Troops Battalion Chaplain, and Marriage Strong Bonds Instructor. Also, he deployed in the Iraq War.
Mike has walked with soldiers, families, and loved ones through extreme pain both stateside and in combat zones. His experiences caring for dying soldiers have birthed a lifelong commitment to serve and empower Warriors and their families. Mike has been married to his wonderful wife Erica for 18 years. The couple have three children and live in Lakeville, MN. Mike has a B.A. in Comparative World Religion and Psychology from the University of Wisconsin, a Master of Divinity from Fuller Theological Seminary, and a Certification in Combat Medical Ministry and Suicide Prevention from the U.S. Army Medical Department.
KirkCenter bench, we welcome back Kirk Jensen to Sauna Talk. Kirk is longtime host and fellow board member of the 612 Sauna Society. You can learn more about Kirk as he was a recent guest to the Sauna Talk podcast. Kirk spent 34 years in the Air Force. He retired as Lieutenant Colonel with +7,000 hours as a C-130 Navigator. Kirk participated in every conflict during that time. Iraq, Afghanistan, Bosnia, Somalia. Kirk’s “day job” is flight simulator trainer for the Air Force.
Today, you can find Kirk either near the Minneapolis St Paul airport, where he runs Air Force flight training or alongside the 612 Sauna Society Sauna, where he serves as longstanding sauna host.
JoshOn the left side of the bench, we have Josh Meisberger (42). Josh has been married for 19 years and has 2 wonderful teenage boys. Currently living outside of Minneapolis in Apple Valley, Josh and family saunas frequently (3-5 times per week) enjoying their permanent wood fire sauna in the back yard of their home. Josh and family are active members at Mercy Road Church in Burnsville.
Josh spent 22 years in the military with 2 combat tours to Iraq before being medically retired for various military related injuries. Currently, Josh owns a construction company (Rare Homes Inc) where he and team do everything from small bathroom remodels all the way up to custom builds and commercial space work.
Mike and he more recently started Healing Heroes Saunas as a way to give back to the men and women who serve our communities in Hero rolls including Veterans, Police, Firefighters, and all first responder, along with their families. Mike and Josh are currently working on their 501c3 filing, as well as fundraising so that they can expand our reach providing hot and cold therapy.
Josh and Mike are very close to finishing their second unit, which will immediately be deployed around the state of Minnesota. They have a long term goals of 5-10 units in the state of Minnesota, as well as being able to build more permanent saunas at their residence for Heroes on an application basis.
Currently you can find them on Instagram @healingheroessaunas.
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Today from any one of 22 saunas, we Sauna Talk from the Great Northern Sauna Village, Malcolm Yards, Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA.
“The Great Northern Sauna Village is a social and therapeutic experience hosted at Malcolm Yards. Visitors can immerse themselves in sauna culture by interacting with various Thermaculture traditions. And connecting with local sauna companies and builders. During 60-90- minute Steam Sessions, guests can explore various types of traditional wood-fired sauns. These include barrel, mobile, and backyard units; tent and floatings saunas. And a new shipping container event sauna for 20+ people. All this, while experiencing multiple forms of heat, steam, and aromatherapy with the cold contrast therapy of winter air and snow.”
The numbers speak for themselves: 22 saunas from over a dozen Saunapreneurs. Some of whom I’ve known, supported, and encouraged from back in the day when sauna in the public domain, even here in Minnesota’s sauna country, was fringe and not so enthusiastically embraced as today.
Sauna Talk glowing from the Sauna VillageYou can see and feel the sauna glow. And as you listen along, you will be able to catch the spirit from a few of the people behind the scenes at the Great Northern Sauna Village. The event is three long weekends long. Here, we catch up with the folks today snap dab in the middle of the event on a chilly grey Saturday afternoon. Those interested in attending can catch the event during its last weekend, next weekend. Tickets are a reasonable $40, and available via the link supporting this podcast on SaunaTimes.com.
We start off this episode with Shaelyn from Superior Saunas, the mayor of the Great Northern Sauna Village. We meet up with Darin from Urban Wing, Jessie from Deep Wave. John from Superior Saunas, Nomad Phil. And Excelsior Saunas Jim, Matt from Superior Saunas, and a few other selected guests along the way.
Wherever this podcast may find you, I think you’ll enjoy getting to know what’s happening in this region. The boldly self proclaimed Sauna Capital of North America. Here is where you’ll find open arms, steam billowing, endorphins rushing, and cold water plunging.
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Today we welcome back Dr. Charles Raison to this Sauna Talk podcast part 2.
I encourage you to check in with Part one, where Chuck and i work from the starting block about Sauna health benefits and research surrounding hypethermia and hot/cold contrast therapy.
In this episode, by design we go deeper.
We unpack hot cold therapy as a novel treatment for mental health.
101.3101.3 isn’t just the radio frequency for a hit music station in the Twin Cities. We have foundational research surrounding the effects on the body and the mind of achieving this core body temperature. Ashley Mason’s work at University of California San Francisco is expanding upon the psychological and physiological effects of this level of heat stress when reaching this core body temperature. Physically, from, for example the standpoint of blood pressure and heart rate variability. Yet how do these physical changes affect people’s moods? Specifically, as a possible novel treatment in the area of depression, anxiety, and other mental health issues.
TotonuThe Japanese have a word for that nirvana feeling we get after a few sauna rounds and cold therapy action. They call it Totonu. And there is actually a published study on the neuro effects of sauna bathing. We link to this study on the Sauna Research Institute website as well as on SaunaTimes websites. In the study, it is recognized that sauna is an activity that promotes relaxation and health. Three cycles of sauna, cold, rest lowers your heart rate and makes you feel more relaxed. Intense feelings of happiness have been reported shortly after enjoying a hot sauna and cold water, what is known in Japan as the “totonou” state.
With this contrast therapy, we achieve a lower heart rate, changes of brain waves, and better metabolic health through the increase in brown fat production – known as “the good fat”. And one could argue that, for those horizontally challenged, sauna use raises heart rate to about the state we achieve with a fast walk. So there is a weight loss association to regular sauna use. But this is not something i’d get the scale out to rely upon.
The Vail Project – Eagle ValleyWe discuss a “Top Flight Sauna” for Vail Health’s Behavioral Health Innovation Center. Right now in development, the CHILL’D Study (“Cold and Heat Investigation to Lower Levels of Depression”) will explore ways to optimize the proven benefits of hyperthermia for depression, including whether adding cold to heat will improve outcomes and whether hyperthermia can be effectively combined with standard antidepressants.
Vail Health is especially interested in thermic bathing within ancient practices. Many of us listening enjoy Nordic style sauna, where we pay homage to the origins of the word sauna (Finland). And sometimes many spend a lot of effort scolding its improper pronunciation. Yet, for those of us that share and know that good feeling, the definition of sauna is arguably much more important than its pronunciation. And for that matter, the definition of sauna is universal and straightforward:
Sauna Definition: A room, often lined with wood, with a heat source that heats rocks to sufficient temperature to create steam when water is tossed on rocks.
So, for example, Temascal, Native American Sweat Lodge, Banya and venik treatments, are all ancient sauna sweat bathing practices.
Chris Lindley is Chief Population Health Officer, Vail Health and the Executive Director, Eagle Valley Behavioral HealthExecutive Director at Eagle Valley Behavioral Health. I will save his bio for what I hope to be a dedicated podcast interview with Chris. But a quick note: Chris’s education and passion revolve around improving the population’s health, emergency response, and wellness. Chris is a decorated combat veteran, receiving a Bronze Star and Presidential Citation while leading troops in Iraq in 2005.
The convergence of the Sauna Research Institute, Vail Health, and the work happening with Charles through Ashley in San Francisco, Chris and team at Vail Health, as well as at Harvard are exciting examples for all of us, that right now, what we all know to be true is being studied and researched.
Sauna is good for us!
Soon, as we continue to unpack and understand how.. and why.. and how much.. I will say, I hope you enjoy my visit with Dr. Charles Raison.. and Sauna on!
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Today on the virtual smoke sauna bench, please welcome my friend Jarmo Hiltunen. Author of the brand new book: Building a Traditional Finnish Smoke Sauna.
I am overjoyed that for many, Jarmo will be your voice to the introduction to the wonderfulness of smoke sauna. Jarmo is a builder, but I would call him more of an artisan. Also, he is also a smoke sauna spiritual evangelist.
His book is now available on AmazonAs we type the words “smoke sauna” into the Amazon search bar, we have to sift our way through infrared “sauna” blankets and dozens of other misappropriations of the word “sauna” before finally finding this gem of a resource.
Small world
Many/most of us around the world have little knowledge or experience with smoke sauna. It’s not just buried within the search bar. And for some of us, being hidden and special is a nice place for smoke sauna to reside.
For smoke sauna is a deep in history, culture, and spirit. Yes, we have had many fragmentations of sauna. But, there will be minimal to no fragmentations of traditional smoke sauna. And thanks to this comprehensive work, Jarmo Hiltunen ensures us that the purity and authenticity of smoke sauna will remain with us forever.
I love that smoke sauna is hard to build. It takes commitment and cash. And these barriers help ensure that those willing to take on the task are both committed to the work. And dedicated to its reward.
This book helps us decide if we want to undertake the challenge. The book clearly helps us decide for ourselves if we are ready to undertake building our own smoke sauna. We Get a flavor of the potential satisfaction in the work, and if committed, be able to realize the amazing löyly and hot room microclimate that may await us at the end of the smoke sauna building journey.I am blessed to have met Jarmo Hiltunen, the author, by upmost coincidence in a public (modified) smoke sauna in Helskinki, back in 2019. Despite living in separate continents, reading through his book, I feel once again that I am right there with him on the bench.
Buy this book. And whether you undertake your smoke sauna build or not, reading through the process will help you appreciate Jarmo’s dedication to smoke sauna. And that alone is worth having his book on your shelf.Wishing you all good sauna. And thank you Jarmo for your hard work and dedication to making this book come to life.
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Welcome to this Sauna Talk podcast episode with Nick Fox: Minnesota’s first Wim Hof certified instructor and baker of amazing homemade bread.
We communed in heat, cold plunge and nature in my backyard sauna recently and you’ll hear my interview with Nick in just a moment. But before then, I’d like to take you back to a dark and cold February night in Minnesota a few years ago when Nick first sat down to watch the VICE documentary on Wim Hof, the Ice Man. Inspired by the science and adventures in the cold with minimal clothing, Nick began taking cold showers and practicing breathwork the very next day. His experience with the Wim Hof Method (WHM) initiated Nick’s breathwork journey. In January of 2022 he went to Poland to complete his certification as a WHM Instructor, and later he became certified in the Oxygen Advantage. Now, he guides breathwork and coaches ice baths in workshops around the Midwest.
Pulmonaut beginningsBefore becoming a full-time Pulmonaut, (a pulmonaut is simply someone who uses their breath as a tool for exploration and transformation) Nick taught Philosophy, History, and Art at both the high school and college level. He is also a Lieutenant Colonel in the Army Reserve, and spends his summers out in the field with the cadets at the Military Academy in West Point, NY. When he’s not playing Army, he’s writing and drawing with his young kids.
Sauna Talk Podcast cold exposure breathwork guestsThose familiar with this podcast are familiar with a few other Sauna Talk guests from the world of cold exposure and breathwork. A few that come to mind include Harvey Martin, who currently is on staff breathing and contrast therapy-ing with the San Francisco Giants major league baseball team, Jesse Coomer, trainer, breathwork coach and author of two books on the subject, and Wim Hof himself, back in 2017. So feel free to dig back and check out these episodes in particular.
Back to NickTeaching people deep conscious breathing and cold exposure techniques is his new passion. You can visit his website foxfirebreathworks.com where you’ll be able to check out his upcoming workshops and classes. For example, in January 2024, it should be cold enough in Minneapolis for Nick’s winter swimming class at the Swedish Institute. He is mobilizing a kick ass wood fired mobile sauna (one that I actually had a hand in helping with with my friends Brad and Ben at Prairiewood Saunas, but that’s story for another day coming soon). Anyhow, Nick looks forward to helping you explore your inner strengths. And I am super happy to share some breathing on the bench with you and Nick Fox from FoxFire Breathworks. Welcome Nick to Sauna Talk!
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Today we welcome a very special guest to Sauna Talk: Dr. Charles Raison. His biography is as follows:
Dr. Raison is a the Mary Sue and Mike Shannon Chair for Healthy Minds, Children & Families in the School of Human Ecology and a Professor in the Department of Psychiatry at the University of Wisconsin – Madison. Dr. Raison received his medical degree from Washington University in St Louis, Missouri, where he was elected to Alpha Omega Alpha and won the Missouri State Medical Association Award. He completed residency training at the UCLA Neuropsychiatric Institute and Hospital in Los Angeles. In addition to his medical training, Dr. Raison obtained his Masters of English from the University of Denver.
Dr. Raison has written and published over 100 scientific papers as well over 20 review papers and editorials. Chapters he has written have been featured in over 30 books, and he has written two books, most recently The New Mind-Body Science of Depression, published by WW Norton in 2017. Dr. Raison’s publications have been cited over 14,000 times, with three publications having more than 1,000 citations. His H-index is 44. The recipient of several teaching awards, Dr. Raison has received research funding from the National Institute of Mental Health, National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine, and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. His visionary work focuses on the treatment of depression in response to illness and stress, translating neurobiological findings into novel interventions. In addition to his activities at University of Wisconsin-Madison, Dr. Raison is the mental health expert for CNN.com.”
Reference: UW-Madisonhttps://www.psychiatry.wisc.edu › staff › raison-charles
Sauna Talk excerptsWe discuss Charles’ academic and personal background, how he has been interested in World’s ancient practices including Buddist Tuumo meditation, where Tibetan monks are wrapped in cold wet blankets and through breathing and meditation, are able to warm themselves for a long period of time. The area around research and studies to treat depression are of special interest. Reaching a hypothermia state has proven health benefits. Dr. Raison’s 2010 depression study with 16 people, who reached 101.3 degrees f. shown a marketed decrease in depression. The participants actually lowered their internal body temperature.
The World leader in HypothermiaWe discuss other work and studies happening right now in the United States, through Harvard University and Massachusetts General. Also Ashley Mason’s work in San Francisco. More on this soon! The Vail sauna lab Eagle County Co. is an interesting place. The disparity of rich and poor, and people moving their and experiencing the Paradox of Paradise, are likely culprits that lead to the area having the highest suicide rate in the country.
Ashley Mason, UCSF. Heat has an antidepressant effect.
Transforming mental healthThe good news is a private investment of $100mm towards a new hospital in Vail that is committed to transform mental health in this country. Providing equitable care for rich and non rich, integrating mind/body practices. Vail Health is set to be a world class research institute. Heat, thermal studies, psychedelic research are all areas of study. It is an exciting time for sauna research.
The CHILL study. Can you benefit from heat whether you are taking an antidepressant or not?
This episode tees the ball up for our follow up conversation which I will be equally excited to bring to you in the future.
So, for right now, I am pleased to present to you Dr. Charles Raison.
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Welcome to this mini Sauna Talk episode from inside and around the World’s Largest Sauna. The sauna was constructed as part of the RunningMan festival outside of Atlanta Georgia, this past weekend, mid October 2023.
I’ll try to connect the dots to how the World’s Largest Sauna came about. And it started with the folks at Embrace North, building a few saunas for the All Day Running organization. And as All Day Running began planning for the RunningMan festival, well, their experience with good heat and creative right brain thinking on the bench fostered a way to “scale” sauna.\
And we move over to All Day Running’s co founder Todd Ferneaux’s backyard. Here is where Todd built the mock prototype for the World’s Largest Sauna. I’ll spare the nuts and bolts of its creative construction, as you can listen to my recent podcast interview with Todd for more on that.
World’s Largest Sauna buildingI was able to lend to help with some of the construction of the sauna and set up.
For now, though, I’d like to welcome you into the event: RunningMan. I attended for a few reasons, and one was to help share what I know about running the sauna stoves. I have used this same stove for 30 years. As elder statesman with more grey hair than most at the event, I was happy to help coach the stokers who became quick studies on stove operation. (note: you don’t have to go into the hot room to see how your stove is performing. If you see smoke coming out the chimney, it needs attending).
Runners and Sauna enthusiastsAnother reason why I was happy to attend RunningMan is to celebrate and experience all the goodness happening with the Venn diagram overlap of people into hot/cold contrast therapy and people into running. As we look at the overlap, the commonalities become clear.
Runners:
know how to push the limits of human performance. are tuned into their bodies.. and their minds. get high on their own supply. are generally conscious folks who can feel when endorphins are rushing. know how good it feels the moment you stop banging your head against a wall.All above also applies to all of us who dig sauna. And cold plunge, as peanut butter and jelly. Knowing our bodies, minds, spirits. Runners, generally, all dig sauna. And when they feel good heat, it’s all over.
So, in this episode you’ll hear from Todd at All Day Running, C T from Nomad Sauna, Tyler, one of the stokers, and a couple other guests, all of whom will give you a good flavor of what it’s like to be in and around the World’s Largest Sauna.
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Today on the bench, we welcome Todd Furneaux who is spearheading the building of the World’s Largest Sauna. The sauna is being constructed as part of Running Man, a three day festival happening outside of Atlanta Georgia this mid October 2023.
During this episode, you’ll hear about Todd’s company and cohorts, All Day Running. And how the idea of building the World’s Largest Sauna was surely fostered on the sauna bench or in the cold plunge. As with endorphins running and community spiriting, this is the environment for Sauna Talk and crazy out there thinking.
Atlanta steeplechase. Grass track. Sauna Village, fun zone, DJs, live music, conferences,
October 17, 18, 19 event.
Sauna can hold. 250 – 350 people at a time.
Mechanics of World’s Largest SaunaSpecially designed Todd Right Brain Thinking:
3,000 square feet in modular squares using 4’x4′ framing material. Side walls: sauna tent material 3 ply oxford. 9′ tall 20′ wide. Flooring: cedar flooring. Roof: Greenhouse style sauna inspiration from NorthUp in Minneapolis. Clear polycarbonate roofing. Same material It’s rated to over 550f. to melt it. The material let’s the light in. There is a greenhouse effect with clear polycarbonate as roofing. On sunny Atlanta days, it’s about 120f. before lighting to the stove. Sauna stoves: 13 large Kuumas. oven for every 200 sf.Prototype: 200 sf sauna 20’x10′. A great way of testing the temperature of things. How the size of the panels.
Final dimensions of the world’s largest sauna65′ x 45′ with extra 200 – 400′ square feet entry and exit.
Exercising your immune system
Running and Sauna.. they go hand in hand.
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Today on the virtual sauna bench, i’m pleased to bring you Sauna Talk: Emma O’Kelly, author of the new book Sauna: The Power of Deep Heat.
We join Emma from her home in North London. And, we hear from Emma how the idea for this book was seeded through the pandemic. Plus, how the health benefits of sauna helped make the book happen.
In the book, Emma does a great job outlining the reported health benefits of sauna, and we touch upon a few of these during our interview.
You wil be transported to how Emma and photographer Maija Astikainen became fast friends, collaborators, and travel partners through the Nordic regions of Europe.
Sauna: The Power of Deep Heat is shipping starting mid September. Pre orders are available now via Amazon and Barnes & Noble.
Editor’s noteDuring Sauna Talk: Emma O’Kelly, we need to dive deeper into Sauna Brain! What it is and why it’s good, but I forgot where I left my towel and water bottle.
Glenn’s notesI found myself reaching for a pen many times while reading this new book! So, a few excerpts and notes include:
Health Benefits: Good reasons to roast
Sweat
“Sauna makes us sweat which is a good gym work out for the organs and the blood vessels,” says Hans Hägglund MD, PhD, a medical doctor and professor at Uppsala University in Sweden.
Sauna Detox
We produce about 0.5kg of sweat in a 30-minute
sauna, and while around 97 per cent of this
is water, studies have shown that some toxins
and heavy metals are excreted too, and sweat
does this more effectively than urine.Good Stress
Hormetic stress is “good stress”. Things like
jumping in a cold pond, or competing in a
marathon, or making a really complicated cake
are examples of good stress.Temperatures of around 38°C to 40°C stimulate
A few other sauna health benefits from our Sauna Talk: Emma O’Kelly
the immune systemInflammation
Charles Raison MD, professor of psychiatry
at the University of Wisconsin-Madison (USA),
is an active proponent of this theory. “Since the
1980s, we have known that depressed people
are hotter and find it harder to sweat,” he says.
Plus, “The pathways that control our ability to cool
off overlap with pathways that regulate our
mood. Body temperature and mood are
directly linked.”Pain relief
Because blood vessels relax and dilate
in a sauna and blood flow increases to muscles
and joints which can in turn alleviate pain and
stiffness. What’s more, sauna causes levels of
beta-endorphins – important pain relievers – to
rise. So, for those living with pain for which there
is no cure, such as rheumatoid arthritis, regular
sauna sessions can provide immense relief.Immunity
Because blood vessels relax and dilate
in a sauna and blood flow increases to muscles
and joints which can in turn alleviate pain and
stiffness. What’s more, sauna causes levels of
beta-endorphins – important pain relievers – to
rise. For those living with pain for which there
is no cure, such as rheumatoid arthritis, regular
sauna sessions can provide immense relief.Blood Pressure
Laukkanen’s seminal study found that those
who took sauna baths four to seven times a
week cut their risk of high blood pressure by
almost half compared to once-a-week sauna
bathers. Why? Well, the most common theory
is that the increase in body temperature during
sauna causes blood vessels to dilate, which can
increase blood flow and improve the function of
the endothelium – the tissue that lines the inside
of blood vessels.
“Nature teaches more than
she preaches. There are no sermons
in stones. It is easier to get a spark
out of a stone than a moral.”
John Burroughs,
The Writings of John Burroughs, 1913 -
Today on the global sauna bench, we Sauna Talk with Mikkel Aaland from inside and just back from war torn Ukraine.
Introduction from MinnesotaBefore we dive into this episode, I’d like to paint a picture of where I am sitting and what i’m thinking about. I am speaking to you while sitting on my deck at our island cabin in Northern Minnesota. I can see about 8 miles to the East, along a shoreline dotted with islands and outcroppings of birch and pine. It’s a crystal clear day with light puffy clouds across the horizon. I’m in shorts, barefoot, and have just immersed myself from a cool morning swim. Random cold exposure being that much more effective than deliberate. There are no airplanes overhead. The aura is of calm and peace.
To my right, 25 or so steps down a walkway through the woods, sits our cabin sauna that we built in 1996. Original stove. Original design, it’s been my thermal tranquil oasis for decades. It exudes spiritual patina. Those of you with your own saunas know what i’m talking about. In sauna we are transformed with peace and tranquility.
I recently turned 60. I am scaling down my professional career in the food industry. Gratefully, I am free from contractual bullshit in the sauna industry. I get to work with who I like, and most all of us are really cool, thoughtful, conscious people. I am feeling mighty blessed, and in times like these, sitting quietly on the sauna bench or on the dock between sauna rounds, If i listen quietly enough, i can hear soft voices of people, even half way around the world, miles less fortunate. Can you listen quietly enough to hear their voices?
And speaking of really cool, thoughtful, conscious people, I’d like to reintroduce to you Mikkel Aaland. Let’s have Mikkel help us hear these voices.
Mikkel from Ukraine: three time Sauna Talk guestIt’s hard to put into words the respect and appreciation I have for Mikkel. With this episode, he has become a third time guest to the Sauna Talk podcast, outnumbering most all others by two. It’s a lot of Sauna Talk. Yet Mikkel, to me, brings Sauna Talk up a notch. Where many see a crescent, Mikkel sees the whole of the moon.
During our July 2016 podcast, we discuss his iconic book Sweat. On our September 2020 podcast, during sauna and the time of Corona, we discuss his Perfect Sweat Documentary project. And now today, you will hear in Mikkel’s voice how Ukrainians are dealing with the invasion of their country from within Ukraine. This is his third trip into Ukraine since the invasion. And with each trip, Mikkel is facilitating bringing a sauna with him to the war torn country of Ukraine.
But this Sauna Talk with Mikkel Aaland episode isn’t a downer. I promise you. You will hear about the wonderfulness of what sauna is bringing to the people of Ukraine. And we sauna enthusiasts can put two and two together to get an idea what sauna can do for people in distress. I get choked up during this interview, and that’s what sauna can do for us. Like many of us, we can take a lot of good löyly, but our edges can be soft.
I don’t know about you, but when I read and hear about the sacrifices and perils happening with the people in Ukraine, I get very bummed out. Can we do something is a valid question. And I’m happy to report, Mikkel Aaland is doing a lot more than just something.
Sauna-AidYes, Sauna-Aid! Mikkel is quick to compliment many others, yet he is leading the charge on behalf of Sauna Aid, a multinational initiative sponsored by the International Sauna Association.
This is a beautiful story of the magic of sauna. The power of sauna as community, therapy, healing, comradeship, wellness, mindfulness, peace. So many great attributes, let’s hear it from the words of Mikkel Aaland.
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Today on the virtual sauna bench, we Sauna Talk with Jackie from Cedar Grove Saunas in Northern Maine. Jackie is just back from her sif week sauna pilgrimage to four countries in Northern Europe.
Jackie has built her own saunas, and is four years into hosting guests traveling far and wide to Cedar Grove Saunas. We are kindred spirits of good heat. We share an interest and passion towards the Latvian Pirtus tradition, spearheaded by Biruté and Rimus from the Lithuanian Bath Academy.
Are you interested in bringing plants and herbs into your sauna practice? Jackie helps us better understand this tradition.
Sauna in Nature is bigger than all of us. And thanks to Jackie, we get to hear her voice and values of how she is bringing this spirit forward.
After hearing about mobile saunas Jackie got the idea to start a business and build another sauna to bring to others. She set off in 2019 to convert a horse trailer into a sauna but it wasn’t easy or quick. Jackie’s high standard of quality, initial lack of carpentry skills, and the trailer’s unique challenges (such as all the rounded corners) conspired to extend the build beyond the limits of her patience. Suddenly she wondered whether other people would pay to use her backyard sauna. However, a spa was born.
BONUS: We begin this podcast with a few brief words from my sauna bench, last night. Friends and neighbors from age 8 to 84 share a couple thoughts to warm your sauna spirit.
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Today on the virtual Sauna Talk bench, we join Marishi Morchida 持田 摩利支, from the Japan Sauna Institute 日本サウナ総研. Marishi joins us from his apartment in Washington, DC. During this episode, we learn about the active Japan sauna culture. How thermal bathing is intertwined into Japanese culture. You’ll learn some key differences between Japanese sauna culture vs. North American in particular. Like many of us, Marishi is a serious sauna enthusiast. Not so much frown serious, but super into it passionate serious. Marishi shared with me that he was a bit nervous to be on Sauna Talk, but I think you’ll agree, he comes off just fine.. as if we were right there on the sauna bench… with you!
Link to the 2021 Japan Sauna Institute survey is here.
Hi Marishi, welcome to Sauna Talk. Please share with us where you are from, where you are now, and what you are doing where you are now.I am originally from Japan. I was born and raised in a city called Hiroshima, then I moved to Tokyo for my undergraduate studies. After college, I worked in Tokyo for several years, and that’s where I fell in love with the public bathing culture of Japan. People say that Tokyo’s population density is one of the highest in the world, but what they don’t realize is that Tokyo’s public bathing density is also one of the highest. I don’t have any data to back this up, but I’ve visited many major cities in the world, including Beijing, NY, Singapore, and Tokyo is definitely a bathing paradise. Anyway, that’s where I fell in love with public baths, and that’s where I fell in love with saunas.
After working in Tokyo for 5 years, I wanted to continue my education in the US, so I moved to Chicago to get my MBA. I graduated last year and am now based in Northern Virginia.
Tell us more about your “day job.”I work for a company called Capital One, which is a large financial institution that focuses on the credit card business. What’s interesting and scary about the credit card business is that everything you do with your card is captured and stored as data. I analyze that transaction data and come up with a plan to improve our products or improve our strategy. “Customers don’t like the rebate percentage on this product”, let’s change it. “Customers in the construction industry turn out to be the best fit for our product”, let’s talk to them more. That’s my day job.
Sauna. I sense it is an important part of your life, as well. When did you first become exposed to sauna and describe the type of sauna to which you’ve been exposed ?I also feel that sauna is an important part of life! I can’t even remember my first encounter with a sauna. It was when I was a small child, and my father and mother were both big fans of hot springs. We visit the local public bath like every month, and when our family plans a family trip, they almost always make sure that the place we’re staying at has a high-quality bath for customers. Most public baths and hotels in Japan have saunas, and I just followed my father.
It was not until I started working that I really saw the value and power that sauna has. This is just my personal opinion, but suffering and anguish improve your sauna experience. When I joined a company, I was just a stupid kid who didn’t know how to talk to my boss properly. This is really a big problem because I was working in a big Japanese company with a long history and hierarchical structure, and my boss often picked up my words and scolded me. I woke up every morning around 5:30 a.m. and worked until 10 to 11 p.m., and when I went home, it was usually midnight. During this period of my life, the sauna helped me a lot. Every day after work, I would go to a gym and just go into the sauna without exercising. I just did nothing there. I would just relax without thinking about my work, enjoy the sauna and cold shower, and then go home. I’m very sure that without the sauna, my life would have been much more miserable.
As for the type of sauna, I do everything. I like electronic sauna. Traditionally, many saunas in Japan are extremely dry, but lately more and more places have more humid, Finnish style sauna too, I like it. I used to go to Russian banya in Chicago and I loved it too.
Now that you are in the US, you have a special perspective of sauna in two different countries. Two different continents. Please share with us your observations about similarities and differences of sauna in US vs sauna in Japan.It’s so different, the only similarity I’ve found is that a sauna is a sauna. Both countries have many electrically heated saunas. That’s where the similarities end.
One big difference I have noticed is where people enjoy saunas. For many people in the US, correct me if I’m wrong, but sauna is something you enjoy at home. Or at least a gym or membership club, a place that only a limited number of people have access to. So when I go to a sauna subreddit, people are almost always discussing what saunas to buy instead of what sauna to go to.
In Japan, saunas are a major form of entertainment, regardless of gender or age. Public saunas are everywhere, and you just invite your friends, co-workers, or family members to go together. Let’s be naked, enjoy the sauna and drink good sake or beer, that’s how we deepen the connection with people.
Another thing is silence. In Japan, you’re expected to be quiet in the sauna, and in many spas you can actually see posters that say you have to refrain from talking. But in the U.S., not just in the sauna, it’s very common to make small talk with someone you don’t know, right? At first I wanted to concentrate on the sauna experience itself, but now I really enjoy talking to people I meet in the sauna.
The Japan Sauna Institute. How did you personally become involved. Give us a history of the organization and your involvement.Japan Sauna Institute was established in 2015. It was started as the first research institute focusing on sauna. We’re also different from other similar organizations in Japan in that our members are just ordinary sauna users while other organizations are mostly operated by companies. We aim to provide insights from user’s perspective, and conduct various studies regarding the sauna industry in Japan.
I joined the Japan Sauna Institute in 2021, and it was just a coincidence. When I was doing my MBA, I wanted to study data science. I talked to one of my friends, and he said that if you want to study data science, the best way to learn it is to actually write a script to find out something you’re interested in. I was into saunas, so I thought it would be a good idea to analyze sauna data with Python.
So I scraped data about saunas from all the public baths from some websites, created a big data set, and just played with it. I analyzed the data to find out things like the best temperature of the sauna room, the best temperature of the cold plunge, which district in Tokyo offers the best access to the best saunas. At first, I just wrote an article on my personal blog, but at some point I thought it would be great if I could work with like-minded people, so I googled to see if there were any organizations doing research on saunas. I found the Japan Sauna Research Institute, I e-mailed them, sharing a link to my blog and that I would like to collaborate with them, then Tachibana, the head of the institute, told me that I should just join the institute.
The sauna study. This isn’t your first one. Tell us about it’s history and how you organize the study, how many participants etc. who they are. How you find them.We started the Japan Sauna Survey in 2016, with the aim to provide quantitative data and analysis on the sauna market in Japan. I suppose this is the same in other countries, but the sauna and spa market is very fragmented, and the vast majority of them are not small companies. What this means is that there is not much public data provided by companies and as a result people only talk about sauna based on their perceptions. That’s why we thought it was important to provide companies in the industry and sauna enthusiasts with a broad overview of the market. Since then, the Japan Sauna Survey has become our annual work, and especially after Covid, it has become an important health checkup for the industry. The good news of the latest survey is that we have seen a solid rebound in the sauna population after the decline due to Covid in 2021.
The study, and I will publish it in the show notes, reveals some very interesting data. What couple few things stand out to you in the study results ?One thing I would like to point out is that the sauna population is on the rise again. As everyone knows, the Covid 19 pandemic was terrible, but it really took a toll on the sauna industry in Japan. Japan is one of the fastest aging countries in the world, and people are generally very conservative, and many people stopped going to the sauna. Some cities, including Tokyo and Osaka, enforced a lockdown, so literally public baths in those places were forced to close, which was a huge blow to that business because you still have to pay utilities, you still have to pay rent, all those kinds of costs. The population of casual sauna-goers, which we call “light sauna-goers,” is still much smaller than it was before Coverid. It’s about 8.5 million now and it was about 15 million before covid, but the medium and heavy sauners, people who go more than once a month, have actually recovered almost to pre-covid levels.
Let’s talk about sauna bathing in Japan. One of the aspects that I respect and appreciate is no jankification in the cold plunge. What do sauna bathers do after exiting the hot room and before entering the cold plunge ?For many sauna enthusiasts in Japan, the cold plunge water is sacred. You have to make sure you either take a shower or do kakemizu, which means scooping water with a small basin and washing away the sweat before using the cold plunge.
I think this custom has its roots in the hot spring culture of Japan. People are expected to wash their body or do kakemizu before using the hot spring bath, and we have to do the same for the cold plunge.
Electric vs wood fired?Personally, I like wood-fired saunas a lot, but unfortunately, there aren’t many public saunas that have wood-fired saunas.
Sauna tents?I have no experience with sauna tents. What a shame!
Back to you and sauna. How would you describe good heat ?Back in Japan, when I was still new to sauna, one of my friends told me that good sauna or good heat makes you sweat, and that’s the definition of good heat for me as well. Personally, I like hot sauna with higher than 200 degrees Fahrenheit, relatively humid, and the heat should be dispersed and evenly distributed in the room. In short, I like hot, humid, sweaty heat.
Are Americans f***ed up (I’m kidding! Am I?)I don’t think so, America is a great country. It is a land of opportunity and I really enjoy the amount of personal freedom I can never have in Japan. The only thing I would like to say to the USA is that there should be more public bathhouses in the USA. I really wonder why there are not many public bathhouses in the US. I’ve been to Russian and Korean spas in Chicago, NY, DC and every time I go I have such a wonderful time. I think part of the sauna experience is meditation. Just focusing on the heat and your body, away from all the outside stimuli from friends or smartphones. In the last decade, meditation has become a big part of many professionals in the US and I think sauna has a great appeal to this segment of the population.
If you could have a mobile sauna and bring it anywhere in the world, where would you like to go and enjoy a sauna session?I’m a big baseball fan, so I would like to take it to a baseball stadium and watch baseball while taking a sauna. I’m not necessarily a big fan of this, and you probably won’t like this idea either, but a lot of saunas in Japan have televisions in them. Normally, people don’t care too much about it, but whenever there is a big sports game, the sauna room has a strange sense of unity. I would like to have a similar but more real experience by bringing my mobile sauna to a baseball stadium.
If you could sauna with anyone in the world, dead or alive, past or present, who would you choose?I honestly don’t have a person’s name, but if I had to answer, I would say people who have ever said no to my invitation to go to the sauna. When I was doing my MBA in Chicago, I invited many people to go to the sauna together, and some people said, “No, I’m not interested. I don’t understand”. I really feel for them, they should at least try it once and then they can judge if it is for them or not. So when I have a change, I want to take those people to the sauna and see their reactions.
When you know it is going to be a sauna day for you, from the morning of anticipating sauna, to going to sauna, maybe the preparing and lighting of the stove, the first heat up, the first splash of löyly, the first cool down, second, and on, all the way through to going to sleep at night, what is your most favorite moment if you had to pick, one of your favorite moments of sauna?This is an interesting and difficult one. I love every part of my sauna experience, from the anticipation to going to bed that day and having the best sleep. If I have to choose one, I like drinking beer with my close friends after 5 sauna sessions. Sauna is the best spice for food and the best spice for creating a bond with people. That’s my favorite part.
What do you think is most misunderstood about sauna, that you would like others less familiar with sauna to know and better understand?Some people in Japan treat sauna as a kind of mental and physical training. It’s so hot and uncomfortable, but if you can endure this difficulty for 5 minutes, you’ll be fine and healthier. I think they’re missing the essence of sauna. Sauna is comfortable. You don’t have to stay there for a certain amount of time, you can get out whenever you want and take a cold shower or jump into the cold water to cool down.
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Today from many of the 12 or so sauna benches, we hear from guests attending Sauna Days 2023 at Larsmont Cottages, Two Harbors, Minnesota.
The stories are from their hearts. We get to tap into their motivations and ambitions to make their way to Northern Minnesota for the third Sauna Days festival this early chilly May weekend. Though upwards of 200 people were in attendance, we hear from a fraction of the attendees. Most were on other benches or experiencing the world’s largest cold plunge in Lake Superior. Yet with the voices on this episode, you’ll be able to get an on the spot perspective of what Sauna Days is all about.
I’ll take a moment to set the scene. Larsmont Cottage is an upscale resort along the shores of Lake Superior, along the rocky North Shore North of Duluth Minnesota, and South of Canada.
If you’re looking for peace and tranquility or a launch pad for North Shore adventures but not your typical hotel — our cottages on Lake Superior are a place to celebrate the immense beauty and scale of our planet’s greatest lake. Tucked away in 40 acres of private woods south of Two Harbors, this location combines a Northwoods experience with 1,300 feet of beachfront shoreline.
– Larsmont Cottages.comSo, imagine a Larsmont Cottages sauna take over, and you’ve got a picture of Sauna Days.
I’ll keep this introduction nice and short, and will leave you with this final thought of consideration. Does sauna bring out the best in people or does sauna bring out the best people. Maybe it’s a lot of both. But whatever the case, judging from the smiles, laughter, and community spirit, Sauna Days was a joyful experience.
At checkout on Sunday, many were signing up for Sauna Days 2024. I caught more than a few guests walking the grounds, sizing up their favorite lakeside cottage to commit back to the front desk. Hope you enjoy this episode, and I hope to see you at Sauna Days 2024.
For more on Sauna Days 2023, please check the review here.
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Today on the bench, we are joined with David Dragseth, Lutheran paster and CEO of Superior Saunas.
Let’s consider for a moment, the Venn Diagram overlap of A: Lutheran Pastors and B: Sauna business CEOs. To my knowledge, the overlap is a body of one: David Dragseth. Also of note, if we consider the Venn Diagram overlap of A: Lutheran Pastors and B: Guests to the podcast Sauna Talk, well, i’m happy to report that David Dragseth is joined with Lutheran Pastor Dave Pearson.
For those looking for some good spiritual sauna continuity, I encourage you to have a listen to both of these podcast episodes.
David and Glenn Sauna TalkDavid and I were together on my Minneapolis sauna bench recently. We enjoyed sauna and then communing in urban nature, relaxing between rounds on my sauna deck, outdoor shower and cold plunge adjacent.
A wood burning sauna and a sauna deck in the rain are perfect backdrops for me to have David expand upon some of his Venn Diagram overlap of religion and sauna as a religion.
You could say that if Jesus grew up in a Nordic country, he may have been a sauna builder. We’ll never know, but we do know that David and I are both sauna builders, which is just the beginning of our Venn Diagram overlap. David fell naturally into the world of sauna building and the sauna business.
In this episode, we learn about David’s sabbatical to Finland, and being impressed and influenced by Finnish confirmation camps. Could there be a place in North America for similar camps? We talk about one of my favorite subjects: the spiritual connection of sauna, as both a noun and a verb. We talk about his business Superior Saunas. How it came into his life, and now, how it is a big part of his life.
Without further ramblings, please welcome David Dragseth to Sauna Talk.
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Today on the Sauna Talk bench, we visit with Anya and Dan Bondarenko from the Banya House. Dan is Latvian, with Ukrainian family heritage. Anya is 100% Ukrainian. Her town has been completely destroyed from the Putin invasion. Anya is a nutritionist, with a focus on plant medicine.
We gather in their outdoor backyard sauna….. er.. banya. The Banya House, Prior Lake, Minnesota. The design, size, and structure is comparable to the 612 Sauna Society Sauna, a sauna that I had a big hand in building. So, I was very comfortable in the Banya House. The heat is kick ass, as is the spiritual patina, as is the fabulous Latvian style pirtis venik treatment.
In this episode, we learn the difference between sauna and banya. The answer? Spoiler alert: it’s not that different! That said, we detail the nuances. And the difference lies within the two biggest measures of hot room climate: temperature and humidity. Where some orthodox sauna preachers claim the importance of tall ceilings and the löyly pocket, we get a very different approach of good hot room climate with Dan and Anya.
Sauna in nature is bigger than all of us. And with banya, we bring nature into the banya. Nature plays a big part in Slavic banya. Essences, teas, vennik / whisks are all front forward with banya climate and culture.
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Today on the sauna bench we sit with Brian who is perhaps the most researched yet least experienced sauna aficionado in the world.
Connecting through consulting servicesOne of the things I do in the world of sauna is offer consultation services. I don’t offer this service to make money, but more to help others realize their authentic sauna dreams. And the other reason is that though I do love to help, my entire day may get sucked up by answering questions and helping guide.
I get to meet some great people through SaunaTimes consultations. And today you will hear from one of them: Brian from Austin, Texas (last name withheld as he is on witness relocation program).
Brian and I had a SaunaTimes consultation session. Then he came back with several additional sauna questions. And many of them were what I call “400 level thinking.” These consultations are often like tennis for me, where the harder the ball gets hit in my court, the harder I hit it back in the client’s court. I found myself engaged in long volleys with Brian. The more he researched, the more engaged I became with our dialogue.
Which way the sauna wind blowsBob Dylan rightfully says that “you don’t have to be a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.” For when we feel good heat, it’s all over. So why should we listen to a guy who has done nothing but research about sauna, without much sitting on the sauna bench? Well, I’ll tell you why. Brian’s approach to his own backyard sauna is fresh. He has an uncanny ability to process information from multiple sources. Brian applies data points without prejudice. He can smell BS and can sift through pedantic chatter. Brian is a weatherman who has figured out which way the sauna wind blows.
We dive into the holy trinity of good sauna (heat, steam, ventilation). You’ll hear about his evolution from barrel saunas to kit saunas. How he graduated away from a custom sauna build in his backyard, and also away from hiring a local contractor in his area. You’ll hear about his conclusions of ceiling height and ventilation. All spot on, my opinion. My 35 year 3x a weak multiple sauna build with my own hands experienced opinion.
Our texts and emails went on and onMost people come to me after experiencing good sauna, and then are compelled to make it happen for themselves. Not Brian. Brian is admittedly very sauna inexperienced. But I dare say that he is one of the most researched sauna person I know. He attacked the project of his own backyard sauna with vigor and inexhaustible energy. I think you’ll find his conclusions and choice for his own backyard sauna very interesting.
We got to sauna recently during my own trip to Austin Texas, where I was on my own version of witness relocation program. A lot of good things come out of conversation on the sauna bench. I’m happy to report that this conversation is one of them. I’m pleased to present to you Brian, the world’s most research least experienced sauna nut in the world.
Final note, as of this podcast, Brian is now becoming more experienced. He’s just taking delivery of his own backyard sauna, and is about to lose himself in his own thermal goodness. Three cheers to Brian, Thanks man, I’ve enjoyed getting to know you and playing sauna tennis!
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Sauna Talk: Kirk Jensen is a host of a thousand saunas (and more). Kirk is one of the lead hosts at the 612 Sauna Society sauna, Minneapolis Minnesota USA.
This episode may be especially interesting for those considering starting a sauna business. Or for those who have attended a “butts on the bench public sauna” and want to know more about how sauna host manages the comings and goings of sauna guests.
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