Episódios
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If you feel like your grocery budget just doesn't buy you as much as it once did, you're not alone. According to U. S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, food prices rose 11. 4 percent last year alone - the highest annual increase in 23 years. The ongoing pinch at the grocery store has been in the news of a lot of media outlets, such as The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, Times Magazine, Forbes, and so many others. Our guest today, food economics and policy professor David Ortega from Michigan State, is going to walk us through the food price inflation phenomenon.
Interview Summary
We've been hearing a lot about food price inflation. Can you tell us how food prices have changed over the last four to five years, and how that compares to the recent past?
Definitely. So, I think it's always really important to define what food inflation is so that we're all on the same page. We hear this word a lot and we've been hearing it for a number of years now. Inflation is the rate of increase in prices over a period of time - so how fast prices are changing or increasing in a given period. The time frame here is very, very important. Now, compared to last year, food prices are only up 2.1%. And this is for all food, which includes food at home and food away from home. Now groceries, food at home, are up 0.9% compared to last year. And menu prices at restaurants, or food away from home, are only 4.0% higher. Now if you're listening to this, you're probably thinking, ‘well, how can this be given how expensive things are at the grocery store?’ And that's because you are likely thinking about how food prices have changed since the start of the pandemic, right? So, over the past five years, food prices have increased around 26%. And so that's the cumulative effect of inflation that we're all very familiar with at the grocery store.
Wow. You talked about the recent past, and in particular, about the time since COVID. How has this looked historically if you take a longer time frame?
Yes, so if we look at a few years before COVID, food prices generally increase around 2% or so, year over year. Now in the summer of 2022, we experienced double digit increases in food prices. More than 11%, year over year. And that was the highest rate of increase in around 40 years, since the late 1970s and early '80s. So now that's a significant spike and departure from what we would consider to be normal. But the rate of increase has come down to almost pre pandemic levels, which is really great news. But remember the rate of inflation is the rate of increase, so because that rate has come down, it doesn't mean that prices are decreasing necessarily.
They're just not growing as fast as they were before.
Correct.
I have some ideas, but I really want to hear you talk about it. What has led to this significant increase in the last four and a half years or so?
It's really been a convergence of factors. It's not just one particular thing, but really all these factors coming together and sort of compounding on each other. We saw increases in labor costs, and then as we go through the timeline, we had Russia's invasion of Ukraine in February of 2022. And that really sent commodity prices surging for things like wheat, other grains, as well as vegetable oils. And it wasn't just the invasion alone, but we had countries responding with export restrictions on things like palm oil that really just exacerbated the situation. We also have the impacts of climate change. The summer of 2022, and for a few years leading up to then, there was this mega drought in the West and the plain states that affected anything from lettuce prices to the price of meat. Something that we're experiencing to this day. We also have the bird flu outbreak, now the largest outbreak in U. S. history. Egg prices have been through a bit of a roller coaster ride, and we've been hearing a lot about increases in egg prices. That's primarily due to the high path avian influenza outbreak, or the bird flu outbreak.
Now, those are all what I would consider, for the most part, to be supply side factors. But we also have demand factors at play. And that is, that when we look at consumer spending on food, especially over the past two to three years, it's been much higher compared to before the pandemic. Even when you adjust for inflation. Now, this is likely attributed to households. Some of them accumulated savings. We had the fiscal stimulus payments from the government that injected cash into the economy. For a period of time, some households, we could splurge at the grocery store. We've seen, and the data from USDA shows, that consumer spending on food both at home and away from home is much higher in recent years than prior to COVID. So again, it's a combination of both supply side and demand side factors that have contributed to the significant rise in food prices.
This is a really important point that it's not a single factor, but it's this mix of things, which also makes it really difficult to talk about how to disentangle it. And I definitely want to hit on that. But before we get there, I want to know what has the impact of these significant price increases on consumers been?
The first thing that I want to point out is that food price inflation doesn't impact everyone the same. It's really low-income households that are hurt the most by these price increases. And that's because they spend a higher share of their income on food. When we look at the poorest 20% of American households, they're spending over a third of their income on food, compared to the average American household that spends roughly 10 to 12%. Now, when we look at industry data, we see that as a result of inflationary pressures, individuals are making shorter and more frequent trips to the grocery store. They're doing more price comparisons. They're turning and buying more of the private labels, the store brands, that sell at a much more affordable price point. And they're buying fewer premium items. So less of the stocking up that we saw at the beginning of the pandemic. But this in turn can also fuel an increase in the price of those conventional or cheaper items. And that's something that I found in the research that I've done on egg and poultry prices. When prices increase, consumers switch to the cheaper, more conventional items. And that increase in relative demand can put upward pressure on prices. So, we've seen this also reflected in the way that consumers are shopping for food and the prices that they're seeing.
I think this is really critical for us to appreciate that while it is an often talked about issue, price inflation, and it does hurt lots of people, but appreciating that lower income folks are facing this at a much harder way is important. And, having spent time working with the charitable food sector and understanding the experiences of the individuals there, you're regularly hearing people talk about the high price of food and how they're trying to navigate it. And the role that these food pantries can play in helping meet that need, but it just still it's a grind. It becomes really challenging.
Yeah.
Recent economic data actually shows that food price inflation is moderating. So, it's not as hot as it once was. But consumers are still experiencing sticker shock at the grocery store. What's going on here?
So, coming back to the earlier part of the conversation, people are really feeling the cumulative effects of inflation. And again, that's why I find it very important to define inflation as the rate of increase in food prices. Well, the average consumer at the grocery store shopper, they don't really care about the rate of increase. They care about the price level, right? When you see that eggs are $3-4 a dozen that's going to catch your attention. When we look at the last 4, 4.5 years, food prices are up 25%. That's a significant increase.
Now, another reason for this disconnect in terms of what the economic data is telling us and how consumers feel about food price inflation, is the nature of food prices in our interactions with them. We see food prices on a weekly if not more frequent basis. We know when prices are going up. We encounter food prices, we go grocery shopping, much more frequently than we get a haircut or we buy a plane ticket. We see these prices rise. Now, it's also important, coming back to this discussion on the percent increase versus the price level, a 2% increase today is a higher dollar amount than it was a year ago, and certainly 5 years ago. Because the base has increased. It's not just in the consumer psychology. It's when we look at the price level and the increase. Prices are increasing more in terms of a dollar amount today than they were in the past. And so because of this, in many ways, the grocery store has really emerged as the face of inflation here in this country. And it really has impacted just about everybody over the past four or five years.
As someone who hasn't had a haircut in probably 10 years, I really do know that prices have changed fairly quickly when it comes to food. But I don't know what's happening at the haircut. But I really appreciate this. And, but I think the thing that a lot of people struggle with in this conversation is, but inflation is coming down. We've just heard these reports and why aren't food prices going down? But you've made it clear. It was almost like we've reached this high level. It is hard for it to roll back. I mean, we don't expect prices to actually fall, do we?
When we look at specific items, right, it's not uncommon to see, say, the price of eggs decrease when we have a period of low bird flu activity. But by and large, when we look at food as a category, say groceries, there have been some periods in the recent past where food prices decreased, say, 1-2% year over year. But we shouldn't expect prices to decrease to the level that they were before COVID. And that's because the nature of prices. They generally increase from year to year. And that's a good thing as long as they are moderate increases. And as the data have been telling us for a couple of months now, we're looking at food price increases in the neighborhood of what they were prior to the start of the COVID 19 Pandemic.
This is helpful. And it kind of makes me think of something we were talking about earlier. And so I want to ask you this last question. There's been some conversation in policy circles about addressing this problem of food price inflation. What are your thoughts on how policy could be used to make a difference in this situation?
That's an excellent question. We're coming up on an election and there's been proposals on both sides floating around and I appreciate the focus on an issue that is affecting consumers. But we have to look at the policies and what economic theory can tell us about what's going to happen.
The first thing I'll say before I even get to that is that the President of the United States, policymakers, have very little control over food prices, especially in the short term. We really have to look at sort of the longer time horizon. How can we make our food system more resilient to future shocks? Investing in crops that are drought tolerance, right? That climate change is one of the factors that's going to be with us from here on out into the foreseeable future. We have to make those investments now so that we have a much more resilient food system in the future.
In terms of coming back to policies, we have to look at economic theory. There's been proposals to ban, say, a price gouging at the federal level. That's something that I think we have to look at very carefully because there could be some unintended consequences. This is just straight out of Econ 101. Other candidates have proposed tariffs across the board. We've seen what happened when we had the trade war with China back in 2018. It leads to even higher increases in food prices because food producers, food manufacturers, rely on inputs oftentimes from abroad. And so now they're facing higher prices, they're going to be passed on to the consumer. As we look at policies, I think it's really important to look carefully at what some of the outcomes may be so that we don't run into some unintended consequences.
BIO
David L. Ortega is a professor and the Noel W. Stuckman Chair in Food Economics and Policy at Michigan State University. His research program focuses on understanding consumer, producer, and agribusinesses decision-making to better inform food policies and marketing strategies. Dr. Ortega provides timely analysis of forces and events affecting the agricultural and food sectors. He has been called to provide expert testimony before federal and state agencies, including the U.S. Senate and House agriculture committees. He is a frequent contributor to food price inflation reporting at The New York Times and NPR, and is regularly interviewed by prominent media outlets, including ABC News, NBC News, PBS, USA Today, CNN, Forbes, Politico, The Wall Street Journal, Financial Times, Newsweek, and the Detroit Free Press, to name a few. Dr. Ortega earned his Ph.D. in Agricultural Economics from Purdue University.
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When we talk about problems with food insecurity and the food system, we tend to reference challenges at the national or international level. And of course, work at that level really needs to be done. But increasingly, there is a unique focus on regional food system strategies and right sizing solutions to best fit those unique characteristics of a particular locale. In today's podcast, we will talk with Rachel Sabella, director of No Kid Hungry New York. She leads the planning, implementation, and evaluation of the No Kid Hungry campaigns across the state of New York.
Interview Summary
Rachel, it is such a pleasure to have you with us on the show today. We've done several podcasts with No Kid Hungry staff in the past and discussed topics like your Summer EBT Playbook for state governments. I'm really interested to learn more about your work in the state of New York.
Thank you so much for having me, Norbert. We have been so lucky to have No Kid Hungry on here to share the stories. And I'm excited to give you some updates about what we've learned with Summer EBT, and to talk about how things look in New York these days.
So, can you help our listeners understand more about No Kid Hungry New York as an organization? What is your approach to addressing childhood hunger?
No Kid Hungry is a campaign of Share Our Strength. And I have the honor and privilege of representing the organization across the state of New York as we work to create solutions, to draw more attention and awareness, and to help connect more kids and families with meals. We believe that every kid needs three meals a day to grow up healthy, happy, and strong. But too many children, and I know we'll talk more about this, are missing those meals. We really take an approach of working directly with communities. I don't know the right answer for each community. But my job and really my privilege is to work with school districts, with elected officials, with community organizations to look for challenges and work together to overcome them and really change systems.
I can appreciate that local communities look very different and appreciate if you're talking about New York City versus upstate New York. Can you tell us a little bit about how you all think differently about the cities versus the more rural areas of New York State?
I appreciate that question. I think all of my colleagues can hear me say, we almost run two different campaigns in New York. Because the approach in New York City, where there is one school district in five boroughs, but a large concentration of students, the largest school district in the nation, versus the rest of the state, is different. But ultimately, the challenges are the same. How are we communicating with families? What solutions are out there that we can implement? We really focus on listening, sharing tools, sharing toolkits, thinking about, in some communities, what they need are materials translated in different languages, so families understand that SNAP benefits are available, or summer EBT benefits. Or as in other communities, it's how can families get to a centrally located place to pick up meals? We really spend our time learning and listening and sharing these programs so that they can find the solutions that work best.
This is wonderful. I grew up in Georgia, I should just note. And I grew up in rural Georgia versus Atlanta. And we always talked about two Georgias, the Atlanta region versus the rural areas. And I can appreciate just how different some of those challenges are. But you're right, the central issue of access to food is similar and how you address those issues will look different in those regions.
I want to span out and talk about some national data that just has come out. USDA has reported food insecurity rates in the U.S. and we saw that hunger actually increased. And we see that for childhood hunger, food insecurity in general, it has risen since the 2019 pandemic. Why is this happening for children?
It's a challenging time. I think something that came out of the pandemic was right away, people said, families are struggling with hunger. What can we do? The stories on the news. We saw it no matter where you were in the country, with the lines to pick up food. And we saw government responded very quickly. There were expanded SNAP benefits. There were no cost school meals provided to every child across the country. We saw pandemic EBT implemented. We also saw the expanded child tax credit. At a time when families were facing tremendous challenges, there was that support from the government. But many of those programs have now ended. And in these economically challenged times, incomes haven't changed. Some people are still dealing with an unemployment crisis. We hear a lot from families as well that they're underemployed. There may be a job, but it's not that same income. And without these expanded government programs, families are facing challenges.
How is this looking specifically in New York State? Are there specific challenges happening in the state?
I think so, and we have specific challenges in New York, but as we talked about earlier, I think we see every state is facing that. In New York State right now, hunger rose for child food insecurity. We're looking at one in five children in New York State. If we look at New York City, it's one in four children could face food insecurity this year. I often say that hunger hides in plain sight because I hear from people, well, they have a house. Well, with a set budget, they're paying to keep that roof over their heads, they're paying for their electricity bill, and what is the number that can shift in the budget, unfortunately? It's for food. We did a survey earlier this year, and four in five families in New York State found that it became harder to afford groceries. Their incomes just were not remaining at the same levels. And in those surveys, when we dig in a little bit, it was highest in rural communities and parents of school aged children. They are fighting hard for their families, but with all these economic challenges, as a society, we have to do more to help them.
Thank you for sharing those insights. And I remember early in the pandemic, some colleagues at Tufts and I did a qualitative study talking to families who were using little free pantries. Those ‘lending library boxes’ where people were putting food and one of the stories that we heard that kept coming up was. It was about price inflation, which was interesting because this was at the early part of the pandemic, and we did worry what happened to those families as inflation increased. And this was before some of those policies came into place about summer EBT and other food assistance programs. But now that those programs have gone away and inflation is starting to let up, but it's still a challenge for families. I really appreciate the way the campaign is thinking about these issues. You've already mentioned earlier that the No Kid Hungry team has worked on the summer EBT playbook as you prepared for a national launch of that program. Could you first just give us a brief overview of what the playbook is and then how has the rollout gone in New York State?
Even to take it back a step, Summer EBT was a new program launched this year. Every state was eligible to opt into this program, which provided a grocery benefit for eligible children and families. Before this, it was available in certain states that were part of a pilot, and No Kid Hungry had been advocating for this to be nationwide. We also knew that there was going to be a short amount of time for this program to launch. So, what we did was bring all our tools and resources together, our staff members, and we said, what do states need to implement? We partnered with organizations like Code for America, like APHSA, and to really see what is this? So, is it tools to get the word out about the program? Is it about implementation? Is it connecting states that face similar challenges to learn from each other? What the state agencies did this year to implement this program in year one, in about six months, was pretty unbelievable. And we also hope that as we're learning from this, we're going to see even more exciting changes in year two.
In terms of New York and summer EBT, we have been seeing so thrilled to see the uptake of the program, the outreach and awareness for summer EBT in New York. In August, Governor Hochul convened an event to celebrate the launch. We had members of Congress, we had No Kid Hungry, we had families there talking about this program. We heard from families how challenging the summer months have been and how this made that difference to get meals to kids.
We've been working with the New York City Council on doing trainings for staff members. So many people trust their local elected official’s office to get answers. How do I get a new card? How do I check my balance? We are learning a lot, we're seeing materials in different languages, and again, what we're excited to do is recap year one, and how do we learn more and make it even easier for families to access in year two?
This is amazing work, and I, I know it's really a challenge when folks, if you will, leave money on the table. And so, helping people connect to the resources that they have legal rights to is a critical role that you all are playing. What do you hope will happen as you learn from the playbook as it was applied in New York? What do you hope to share with other states in this process?
We want to show other states our best practices, what worked really well, what's something that we would tweak a little differently. We also want to make sure that those states that weren't able to opt in this year, because there were more than 10, I think about 15, that did not opt in. We want them to see what they can do and how they can use this program to connect kids with meals. But also, this money is reinvested in local communities. Families are using it at grocery stores, at local markets. In New York, we're really excited to see how they're using it at green markets, getting those fresh fruits and vegetables, supporting agriculture. This program while it addresses hunger, it's also an economic engine. And we want to make sure everybody understands that and are using those dollars in a valuable way.
I want to ask you a last question, and it's sort of a big question about child hunger. So, what is the outlook of child hunger in New York, and what gives you hope about addressing this challenge?
One of the things that gives me tremendous hope Is when we did our survey of New Yorkers, 93 percent of New Yorkers believe that solving childhood hunger should be a bipartisan issue. They don't see the politics of this in New York. We have seen that increasing the SNAP minimum benefit is a bipartisan solution. We have seen no cost school meals for all children has bipartisan support. I think we see New Yorkers recognize they want to make a difference. We get questions all the time. How can I help? We have media outlets sharing the deadlines, putting the updates out for families. We see elected officials in New York State that are paying attention to what's happening in their backyards and their local communities. And they want to make a difference. I hope that what we are seeing in New York translates into other states, translates to the federal level. There is an excitement right now around school meals, and we're hearing a different dialogue. It's something that people like you and I, we know the difference it makes, but I'm hearing from family, from friends, 'Rachel, I read this story on School Meals," tell me about this. My hope is the excitement, the enthusiasm and the interest really changes the conversation and helps us drive forward solutions that will ensure that someday there is no kid hungry.
BIO
Rachel Sabella has been a respected advocate, strategist and leader for nonprofit organizations for more than 20 years. She has been the Director of No Kid Hungry New York, a campaign of Share Our Strength, since 2018. In this role, Ms. Sabella works closely with stakeholders across New York State to ensure children have access to the nutrition they need to grow and thrive. She oversees grant-making, awareness building, programmatic and advocacy priorities for No Kid Hungry New York and manages relationships with state and local policymakers. Since March of 2020, she developed and oversaw a strategy to distribute more than $9 million in emergency grant funding to organizations across the state of New York and Puerto Rico to connect more kids and families to meals. She has led successful advocacy campaigns at both the city and state levels on issues including expanding access to school meal programs and SNAP in order to connect more New Yorkers with meals. Ms. Sabella also serves as a member of the NYS Council on Hunger and Food Policy and was appointed to Mayor-Elect Eric Adams’ transition team. Prior to this role, Ms. Sabella served as the Director of Government Relations and Policy for the Food Bank For New York City. During this time, she led advocacy campaigns to grow and strengthen resources for anti-hunger programs, which led to unprecedented support for food pantries and soup kitchens in New York City. Her advocacy efforts also led to the creation of 25 school-based pantries that distribute food, menstrual and hygiene products, and household cleaning supplies to families in need.
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In today's podcast, we're discussing Fast and Furious. But it's not the movie series starring Vin Diesel. Instead, the catchphrase describes rapidly increasing and somewhat confusing food system environmental impact reporting. Food firms, farmers, and governments all have a clear need for more quantitative environmental impact data in order to measure and understand factors such as carbon footprint, sustainable agricultural practices, and food supply chain processes. But there is no single standard for such reporting and different measurement methodologies make it difficult to assess progress. What's more, greater transparency regarding environmental impacts and food systems will affect trade and supply chains. Our guest today is Koen Deconinck from the Trade and Agricultural Directorate of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, or OECD for short.
Interview Summary
You and your colleagues at the OECD recently published a paper called Fast and Furious: The Rise of Environmental Impact Reporting in Food Systems. Can you tell me a little bit about the paper?
Sure. A while ago we were talking to one of the world's experts on sustainability in food systems. He alerted us that there was a major change happening in how people think about sustainability in food systems. He told us in the past, it was thought of almost as a checklist, right? People would say, here's a list of practices that you should or shouldn't use. And then we'll come and confirm whether that's the case on your farm. Then you either get certified or you don't. And he said, you should pay attention because there's a big change underway. We're more and more moving towards actually quantifying things like what is your carbon footprint? What is your water footprint? And so on. He convinced us that this was actually a major change that was happening. Oddly enough, outside of the role of the practitioners, not that many people have been paying attention to it. That is why we wrote this paper.
This is a really important shift because just thinking about this in terms of economics, evaluating outputs versus the methods that you get to those outputs can have really significant implications for the various actors involved. So, this seems like a good move, but it seems also kind of complicated. I would love to hear your thoughts about that particular move. Why did you think, or why did you all realize this was a challenge and opportunity at the same?
That's a great question. It actually gets to the heart of what we're describing in the paper. Starting with the good news, we do think that this has an enormous potential to improve sustainability in food systems. Because we know from the scientific evidence that there are big differences between different kinds of food products in terms of their average environmental impact.
For example, beef tends to have more greenhouse gas emissions per kilogram of products relative to poultry and then definitely relative to plant based alternatives and so on. You can see these kinds of average differences. But then the data also shows that within each kind of product category, there's huge differences between different farmers.
And what you can do if you start quantifying those footprints is it actually unlocks different kinds of levers. The first lever, if you think about carbon footprints, which is maybe the most intuitive example. The first lever is people know the carbon footprint of different kinds of food products. They could shift their diets away from the products that have a higher footprint towards products that have a lower footprint. For example, less beef and more towards poultry or towards plant-based alternatives. That's one lever.
A second lever is that if you can also start to get even more precise and use data that is specific to each producer, not just an average, then also within each product category, people can start shifting towards the producers that have a lower environmental footprint. So, for example, people will still be drinking milk, but then they can shift towards milk producers that have a lower carbon footprint. And the third interesting lever that you can unlock is if you have that data at a supplier level. Suppliers could then say, well, I changed my practices. I changed my inputs. I've done things differently to reduce my impact. You actually can stimulate innovation by each individual farmer, each individual company in the supply chain to lower that impact. And that is something that you can do if you're quantifying those impacts, and that is very difficult or even impossible to do with this previous checklist-based approach. So that's one of the reasons why we're, we think that this has tremendous potential if we get it right.
That's right. Just saying that you're doing sustainable practices isn't sufficient. It's really critical to evaluate what kinds of greenhouse gas emissions or other environmentally problematic outcomes of that producer or firm is what really matters. But I have to ask you just how difficult, how realistic is it to be able to measure the environmental impact of every farm?
That's a really good question. And of course, if you think about agriculture compared to other sectors, one of the big challenges for agriculture is indeed that there's just so many producers, right? I talked to people who work in the steel industry, and they say that their industry is complicated, but there's basically only 1000 steel factories around the world. That's not that many. The latest evidence suggests that there's more than 600 million farmers worldwide. So clearly, we're talking about a completely different order of magnitude, order of complexity.
And the second difficulty is that when we talk about measurements, for a steel factory, in theory, you could put sensors in the chimney and sort of measure that. For agriculture, that's really not practical. Scientists would sometimes do that because, you know, otherwise it's hard to know what greenhouse gas emissions you have in agriculture. But it's clearly not something that you're going to do on 600 million farms.
So, what people do instead is, scientists would do the primary research. There are different ways of doing that, to try and estimate which kinds of practices have which kinds of environmental impacts. If you have a cow and it has this kind of diet, how much methane is it burping and how is it affected by differences in the kinds of feed that you give the animal and whether it's inside or outside and so on. And then based on that very detailed research, that then gets simplified into a simpler model, a simpler tool, so that the farmer can plug in some key performance indicators from their farm. I can say ‘I have these many cows, this is the feed rations that I'm giving to them. These are the kinds of manure management options that I have.’ And then that tool is a simplified tool that basically gives you an estimate of those emissions. And once you have a tool like that, of course, the challenge is already a lot easier. Because then, if your tool is user friendly and you can sort of focus on just a couple of key parameters that farmers would know, then, of course, you can scale it up. And there are actual examples like that. In Ireland, there is a scheme called Origin Green, which is an initiative by the Irish government to promote exports of Irish Agri food products. They cover something like 90 percent of all the beef and dairy farms in the country. And as part of the initiative, they do the audits anyway, but as part of that initiative, they also quantify the carbon footprint. They basically have farm level data for 90 percent of the farmers. New Zealand similarly has had a big campaign called Know Your Numbers, where they've convinced farmers to use these kinds of calculation tools to get a good insight on how much the emissions are on their farm.
So, it is definitely not straightforward. But at the same time, we do see that it is actually happening. It is actually feasible.
Thank you for sharing that. This is really impressive work that's happening in the European context and in New Zealand. I have to ask, how challenging is this for small or medium sized producers? I mean, both in a European or Northern context, but particularly when we start thinking about the fact that Agri food chains are global and, and so there can be production practices in the Southern countries that would be of concern. How do you think about this in this context?
It is a really important issue. And actually, we've been here before. If you go back something like 20 years ago, and I think you actually did some research on this yourself back in the days, Norbert. There was a big increase in food safety standards, food quality standards. And these were not necessarily public standards. It was quite often retailers who started to impose that on their suppliers. And we did have all those concerns, right? Because on the one hand, it was making food safer and higher quality for consumers. But on the other hand, there was this risk that it would actually exclude, especially the poor producers, the small and medium sized enterprises from those supply chains. There's been a lot of research about that and it turns out that in the end, it was more nuanced than what people feared initially. But of course, we definitely have the same concern now. And there's a few elements to it. One is simply the difficulty of actually quantifying those things. I mentioned a few of these calculation tools and a few of these initiatives. So far, most of the investment in these things has been in high income countries. And even if you look at the underlying science, most of the research has happened in richer countries. So, if you go to tropical agriculture, we even have less scientific evidence that you would use to build a simplified tool like that. Then there's, of course, the challenge of actually getting farmers to use that. So, governments in developing countries typically don't have the same kind of capacity that the government of New Zealand, or the government of Ireland has to help farmers do that. So, there's definitely a role there for development cooperation, technical assistance, things like that.
But there's also another concern, which is that one of the important drivers of the environmental impacts of food products is actually your productivity. There are many parts of the food system where your environmental impacts might be roughly the same, no matter whether you are actually very productive or not. So, if you have the type of variety of rice or wheat that you're using that just has relatively low yields, then, of course, you divide the total environmental impact by a smaller number. So, automatically, your relative impact is bigger. And typically, that is what we find in the Global South. So, typically, the producers there will have much lower productivity levels. And studies do find that they tend to have higher environmental impacts, all else equal. So even if they were able to quantify it, there is actually an additional risk that then they would still get excluded.
What that means is that this rise of quantified environmental impact reporting is something that we need to pay close attention to. And development corporation agencies and everybody else should be thinking hard about how we are going to make sure that producers in the Global South are not only able to quantify, but also able to improve those environmental impacts. For example, through sustainable productivity growth.
This is really helpful. And thank you for sharing that. And you're right. I did think about these issues. I was influenced rather by the experience of increasing food safety standards. I would say one of the differences that we saw with food safety standards was how safe can food be? I mean, we want our food to be extremely safe, but there are always these tradeoffs. With environmental impacts, I think it feels a little different. And I really appreciate the concern of the difference between these small and medium sized enterprises, particularly out of a developing country context. I've got to ask sort of a broader question. Why is all of this happening now? This increase of environmental sustainability measures, both in terms of the technical work and the demand. I mean, what's bringing all of this together?
It is actually a pretty interesting story because it appears that, the way we look at it, there's been some changes on the demand side and on the supply side, so to speak, right? So, there's this growing demand for more information. Consumers are increasingly conscious about these things, even though it's not clear yet if this really translates into their shopping behavior. Civil society organizations, of course, have long been asking for more information on that. Governments, in some cases, are also pushing for that. One clear example there is in the European Union. There is this new rule in the EU. It's called the Corporate Sustainability Reporting Directive. That's quite a mouthful. And one of the things it does is it requires all large companies to report not only their own emissions and the emissions from the energy that they're purchasing, but also their emissions upstream and downstream in their supply chain. People sometimes call this Scope Three Emissions. This has huge ramifications because it means that for the supermarkets, a large part of their Scope Three Emissions are the emissions from food. They would then probably ask the food manufacturers 'well, give us more information on your carbon footprints.' And in turn, for the food manufacturers, a large part of their carbon footprint comes upstream from the agricultural sector. So, everybody would be turning around and asking their supplier and all the way up the supply chain for more information. All the way, not only to the farmer, but even further up to the fertilizer companies and so on.
So, there's definitely this push on the demand side. And, I guess governments and citizens and civil society, those are sort of the usual suspects, so to speak. There's also unexpectedly a lot of pressure from investors. We see organizations of investors pushing hard for more transparency. Their logic is that sooner or later, stricter regulations on the environmental side are going to come. For some of the companies that we're currently investing in, we have no idea how hard that would hit them. So, those companies need to disclose more information because we as investors need to know how much money is at risk if we invest in a business that is, for example, linked to deforestation and things like that.
So, that's the demand side. But what is really interesting is that at the same time on the supply side, it's also becoming easier to actually provide that information compared to five or 10 years ago. Some of this is because people have been working in obscurity for a long time, trying to develop certain methods and databases. A lot of that work has been coming to fruition in just the last few years. For example, there's been development of new reporting standards, there's been development of new databases, there's been development of new methods, people are now using satellites and so on to try and quantify things like land use change, deforestation impacts and so on. A lot of these things are now converging and blending with each other. We do think that the combination of this greater demand and greater supply that is driving what we're seeing now. And of course, some of these initiatives are still at a relatively early stage. At the same time, I think the direction of travel is clear. So, we think that demand is not going to go down. It will keep getting easier to supply that information. We think that this is what explains this fast increase that we're seeing.
This is really intriguing, and it makes me wonder how global value chains are going to be realigned. Going back to this idea of small and medium sized producers who may not be able to have the monitoring, or if you think of even larger firms who feel uncomfortable with having some outside agency evaluating the carbon emissions or other greenhouse gas emissions from their farm. I can imagine that this could realign value chains. Is this a fair assessment? Is this a concern?
I agree with you that this is something people should be looking at. At the moment, there's not yet any data on that. I don't think anybody has really researched that. We see in general that many researchers aren't really paying attention to this trend, which was actually one of the reasons we wrote this paper. But what you're describing is exactly one of the questions we have as well. There are a few ways that this could play out. You could imagine that if it's only some markets that are getting very interested in this kind of information, you might have a situation where companies in a producing country decide to just send the sustainable stuff to the countries that care about sustainability. But they keep producing the unsustainable stuff for all the other markets. In that case, the total impact for the environment might actually be limited. But there could also be other cases where companies think, well, since a large part of our customer base is asking for more sustainability, we might as well make everything sustainable just to be on the safe side. You might have other cases where companies start working backwards because they want to make sure that what they are selling is sustainable. So, you might actually have situations where a retailer starts working with suppliers or where a food manufacturer starts working with suppliers to make sure that their production is sustainable.
This is again something that we have seen in the wake of these food safety standards about 20 years ago. This was a really surprising development and there was a lot of investment from other companies in the supply chain to help farmers start meeting these stricter food safety standards. So, one possibility is that something like that might happen for environmental sustainability as well. At the moment, these are all really just hypotheses. And so I really hope people will start to investigate this more seriously, because I think it is very important also for policymakers to understand what has happened.
I'm really appreciative of you making the point that there is just a great deal of uncertainty in this space and that there is a need for researchers to explore this issue. And I agree the food safety concerns of 20 or so years ago is a good example. But I think there are going to be some differences and I'll be intrigued to see how that plays out. I am interested to understand, are there any risks besides the ones that we've kind of touched on, any other risks or downsides to this movement that we're seeing?
Yes, there are actually. Because the story I told so far was maybe a little bit on the optimistic side. I was explaining how it's becoming easier to supply the information in part because we now have better reporting standards. That is one part of the story. That's sort of the glass half full view of it.
The glass half empty view is that actually, at the same time, there's also a fragmentation. There are also many different initiatives, and this is why we call it fast and furious. So, there's lots of different initiatives that are competing for attention. And you do end up with situations where you might have different ways of calculating certain environmental impact. Different ways of reporting it. And then it's not necessarily clear when somebody is reporting something what exactly they were using as methods. And so that poses an enormous risk, because if every supermarket or every country starts coming up with its own way of doing things, its own way of reporting, then the end result is just going to be confusion and frustration and transaction costs. And then the benefits for the environment won't even be there.
So, it is really important if you want this to go well, that people get together, stakeholders, governments, researchers, to get together and try to align as much as possible on common reporting standards, common methodologies, etc. So that it's clear for everybody that the data that we're looking at is comparable. This is important, and I can imagine if we think about international accords on addressing climate change and how it takes a lot of effort to get agreement on those, you can imagine that when we're talking about these kinds of measures and getting concordance on that, there could be some real challenges.
We've already touched on this, but I'm interested to know, are there other policy implications of the work that this paper is doing? Is there something we should be paying attention to?
Well, one idea that I hope people would start taking seriously is I want people to start thinking in timelines and cycles. And let me explain what I mean by that. There's a lot of different initiatives out there. And you can even start to see a little bit of a hierarchy, how different things, some of these standards are building on other standards. Some of these databases are then in turn using some of those other standards. There's a kind of a logic that is emerging there. One of the problems that happens now is that it's not really clear when all of these elements are going to get updated. So, suddenly one of those standards might get updated and then now all of these other standards that build on that or those databases that build on that are suddenly no longer consistent with that original standard. And then there's some confusion and then it's not really clear whether the data you are using is actually still consistent with the original standard. One idea that I'm advocating for is that people should all explicitly define a certain iteration cycle where they say, look, every four years, for example, or every three years, every five years, we are going to review the standard. We'll give everybody 12 months of warning, and we'll have a stakeholder process, and we'll have a scientific process behind that so it's clear for everybody what we're changing and why. But this way, you know well in advance when each of these building blocks is going to get updated. Then that would make it a lot easier for everybody to make sure that what they're doing is aligned with those standards. And an additional benefit of doing it like that, I think, is these things are moving so fast and there's still so much new science and new technology coming in, that we have to keep the possibility open to keep improving and updating those methods and those standards as well. If you announce in advance that we'll do this on a three year cycle or a four year cycle or whatever it may be, I think that could help us strike a balance between the need for that flexibility, but at the same time that need for stability. Because of course, if things keep changing all the time, then you're never quite sure whether the numbers you're looking at make sense or can be compared. I think that idea would be very helpful. And that will probably require quite a bit of coordination between all the different stakeholders who work in that space. And I think that would be a very good thing to do.
BIO
Koen Deconinck is an economist in the Trade and Agriculture Directorate of the OECD (Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development) in Paris. He was lead author of the OECD report “Making Better Policies for Food Systems” (2021) and has worked on market concentration, seed markets, evidence gaps, resilience, and environmental impacts of food systems. He holds a PhD in Economics from the University of Leuven and has published research in the American Journal of Agricultural Economics, the European Review of Agricultural Economics, Food Policy, and Business History, among others. He currently works on measurement of carbon footprints and other environmental impacts of food.
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Today's podcast is a gastronomic treat. I'm talking with Chef William Dissen, James Beard Award-winning chef and owner of the restaurant, The Marketplace, located in Asheville, North Carolina. William is the founder of four award winning restaurants and draws inspiration from traveling the world, creating dishes that tell a story, surprising guests with inventive food preservation techniques, and bringing classic dishes with explosive flavors to life. He published a debut cookbook in 2024 titled Thoughtful Cooking - Recipes Rooted in the New South. Food and Wine Magazine recognized it as the best spring cookbook and praised how he takes readers on a culinary journey organized by the four seasons of Appalachia's most sought-after ingredients. William also enjoys the fame of being the first and only chef to beat Gordon Ramsay in a cook off on NatGeo TV’s Gordon Ramsay Uncharted Smoky Mountains.
Interview Summary
Will, you were early to the farm to table local foods concept. Some years ago, when I dined at your restaurant, the Marketplace, I liked the philosophy, not to mention the food, would you please tell us what led you down this road?
You know, I'm originally from West Virginia, from the Appalachian Mountains, and my grandparents were, were farmers that lived in very rural parts of the state. I grew up in suburbia in the capital of Charleston, West Virginia, but spent a lot of my weekends on their farm. And they very much lived the Appalachian mentality and culture of farming, of putting things up for the year. You know, they canned and pickled and preserved and fermented and dehydrated, and they foraged and they had honeybees to pollinate their garden. They irrigated with fresh spring water and things that I think now in 2024, hipster DIY trends that people are saying they're doing in bigger cities. But these are things my grandparents were doing to sustain themselves. And I'd say that those ideas and ideals imprinted upon me about not just sustainability and how to treat the earth, but also about how to make food delicious because great food starts fresh.
And from this initial exposure to food customs of your youth what led you to being a chef?
You know I think in those hot sweaty August days, as they say up in the holler of my grandparents’ farm, we'd sit in the front porch and shuck corn and string beans. I really kind of kindled a love affair with food. One of my first jobs I had, I was a newspaper delivery boy and shortly after that I was, you know, trying to hustle to make some more money. And I ended up washing dishes at a local country club. And I think a very similar story for a lot of chefs, one day the garde manger cook or the salad and sandwich cook called out. And the chef said can you make sandwiches and salads? And I thought, sure, I can do that. And haven't really looked back since.
You've been a chef at many fine restaurants in major cities. What led you to Asheville, North Carolina in particular?
After I left West Virginia, I lived all over the place. I was in New York and California and South Carolina and ended up back here where I'm now in Asheville where I have my restaurant, The Marketplace. And one of the things that really stood out to me was the really beautiful region. National Geographic has voted it time and time again as one of the most biodiverse places on the planet. It's actually a temperate rainforest. There are species of wild edible greens and medicinal greens. There are species of lizards and snakes and things that you only find here in this region. It's not just beautiful. It's also a really thriving ecosystem.
Terms like intentional, mindful, and in your case, thoughtful - it's in the title of your book - can be applied to cooking and eating. What does it mean to you?
I'd say in general, it's going back to what I mentioned about my grandparents. And really focusing on being present but also planning ahead. I feel like in this day and age, we're so connected to computers and phones and social media that we've kind of got disconnected from our food system. People say, well, you know, technology is driving the world and we need to be logged in to be able to stay relevant. And I don't disagree with that, but I feel as our society is doing that, we are losing touch with nature. And if you go back one generation, two generations and ask anyone, their grandparents, I'm sure grew a garden. Or were farmers, and they probably went through acts of preservation because there weren't Whole Foods in every corner. It wasn't Amazon delivery. They had to plan ahead, and to be in touch with the time of year enables them to sustain themselves and their families. And certainly, we're fortunate now in 2024 to not have to think that way all the time, but I do think there's a lot of value into being a little more thoughtful about the world around us.
And I think that's really what I want to try to show people with my book, Thoughtful Cooking, is that connecting yourself to the food system enables us to connect ourselves to the environment. Enables to connect ourselves to our local economy, to our community, and to be reconnected with those that make our food. And I think that's an important thing that a lot of us are missing in this day and age.
Please tell us more. What does thoughtful cooking look like in action?
I think thoughtful cooking is kind of multifaceted, right? I think it's being aware of what's in season. Here we are in August and in the Carolinas. What's in season this time of year, right? We have tomatoes and peppers and corn and okra, and we have all these different things that are uniquely delicious and in season. But it's a conversation when I talk about local food and talk about sustainability. I ask people, it's a very cliche question: when would you like to eat a tomato? July? August? Or January, February. And people say, 'Oh, well, of course, July or August. That's when the tomatoes are delicious and they're bright in color and they're ripe and they're juicy and sweet.' And I think those are the things that we're not being as thoughtful about nowadays. About where our food comes from and why things are in season.
So, I think that's one aspect of it. Another aspect of it is it's just taking the time to be mindful of the world around us. I think we're all moving so fast that I want people to be able to slow down and enjoy cooking. Cooking as a father of two, running many businesses, I joke with my kids it feels like a chopped competition in my kitchen. Some days when I open the fridge and I've got 30 minutes to make dinner for a couple hangry kids. But also taking the time to enjoy cooking. I think there's something to be said about slow food and taking the time to cook in your kitchen, open a bottle of wine, turn the music up. Actually connect with people around you rather than just staring and scrolling on your phone. I think it's a way to really bring people together.
And then the other, the other facet of it is, thoughtful cooking is that the way we choose to eat really creates an opportunity to vote with our forks. That there's a lot of advocacy and sustainability you can do just in taking the time to think about where your food comes from.
I can so relate to what you're saying. Not too far from where I live in Durham, North Carolina, there's an unbelievably wonderful farmers market. The state farmers market in Raleigh, which I imagine you've been at, been to one time or another. But what a pleasure it is to go there when the strawberries are just coming into season and then the blueberries and then the peaches and then the apples. Not to mention all the vegetables. And we just this weekend had guests and made a corn and tomato salad with all these wonderful things that were there. It just felt that there's something special about making it when you've gone to buy the ingredients from a farmer who grew them. And you're right, everything, every part of the experience is better doing that. How in the restaurant do you try to accomplish getting people closer to the food and more thoughtful about it?
At our flagship restaurant, The Marketplace in Asheville, the whole premise is local food sustainability. I really like to show that we can create a sustainable business that can last the test of time. And I think we have, as we're celebrating our 45th year this year in 2024. But for me it's taken the time to meet the makers. The artisans who are making cheeses or types of charcuterie. Dairy farmers, vegetable farmers, livestock farmers, fishermen. And taking the time to talk to them about what they do to be a little more thoughtful and inquisitive about how we're eating. Doesn't necessarily mean that we're all eating healthy food all the time, right? But understanding how they're taking care of it.
As you really dive into the food system, there's a lot of things that if you look at what's happening behind the scenes in some of these big, bigger commercial commodity farms - you may not like about people are being treated that are growing the livestock or the vegetables. About how they're treading on the environment in a non-sustainable way. And then also, what's going into the product that's going into your body? Are they putting hormones on or different types of spray or whatnot, you know, to cut the chemicals that could affect your body in the long run.
And I know I'm not a crazy health nut, but I want to make sure that, when I'm eating clean, I feel good. And I think a lot of it too I was very fortunate after I did undergraduate studies at West Virginia university, I went on to the culinary Institute of America for culinary degree. And I took a wine course there. It really imprinted on me about viticulture with how they grow grapes. They study this thing called a Brix level, which is the sugar level in a grape. They use this fancy electronic device called a mass spectrometer that measures the sugar content in a grape. And so, the vintners go around their farms, and test the grapes as they are approaching ripeness. They wait to pull them off the vine until the grapes reach that perfect ripeness because the grapes are higher in sugar. They're naturally sweeter. They're going to ferment into more delicious wine, but every fruit and vegetables has a Brix level. So if we're able to really be in touch with, with nature, with the time of year, when vegetables and fruits are ripe, they're naturally going to taste better. The vegetables are going to be bright in color heavy for their size because they're naturally ripe and sweet and they're just going to taste better. I don't know about you, but that doesn't necessarily make me feel like I'm a health nut. But it makes me feel like I'm in search of great flavor.
Well, it shows how much you appreciate good food and how important good food can be for the way we feel about ourselves. Obviously for the environment and things. You know, I've often thought it would be a wonderful experience to go to a restaurant and have a meal, but before the meal, be able to interact with the farmer. The farmer comes in and talks about whatever she or he has contributed to that particular meal and how the food was created and what their relationship is to the land and whatever practices they use. You get those things outside of a restaurant. But I've always thought it'd be really interesting in a restaurant to do that kind of thing. Maybe that's something you've already done.
We've definitely hosted a number of farm dinners. I actually have one coming up. There's a group out of Santa Cruz, California called Outstanding in the Field. This will be our eighth dinner we've done with them over the years. But we will do a white tablecloth dinner in the middle of a farm field for 200 people and cook over a wood fire. And you know, the hogs and the sheep are grazing the pasture beside it. And the vegetable garden is in other pasture over. And for a lot of people, they've never stepped foot on a farm. And it's a really transcending experience.
I think the answer to this is pretty obviously yes. But it seems like today's youth, like I think about students that I teach in college, are so much more interested in the story of their food than people were just a generation or two ago. But I think I, when I grew up, all we cared about was that we had food. And the, you know, the better it tasted, which basically meant how much it was processed and how much sugar and things it had in it. That was really about all we knew. But now people are asking a whole different level of questions about where their food came from. Do you see opportunities for working with children to help maximize that?
I do, yes. There's an organization that I've been on the board for a long time locally called the Appalachian Sustainable Agriculture Project. They have a subsidiary called Growing Minds Program. And it works to put healthy local food into schools and to teach children about the opportunity to healthy and eat fresh. I think it's a great thing.
I do a lot of food advocacy work as well on Capitol Hill where I go and lobby for different food policy. I've done that at Capitol Hill, you know, and internationally as well. I helped create the Chef's Manifesto for the UN's World Food Policy. And I spoke at a number of conferences around the world about it. But it starts with children, right? If we're able to teach them about eating healthy and eating local, it's going to be something that's ingrained in them forever.
And about local food, I feel like a lot of people say, 'Oh, well, shopping at the farmers market, like that's only for the 1%.' And I feel like I find a lot of great deals in the market. But a lot of farmers markets nowadays, because of different food policy and food advocacy, they have things even with SNAP benefits that they'll do two for one. So, you can really get some great deals at the market as well.
You mentioned you've done some advocacy activity in Washington arguing for certain policies, what kind of policies have you been involved with?
Given that we're in a presidential election year, I always like to tell people I don't really like politics very much, but I really like policy. Because policy is where you can take action and make change. I've done a lot of advocacy work advocating for things like the Magnuson Stevens Act, which provides federal fishery management and sustainability ratings for different species of seafood. I, also worked on the Childhood Nutrition Reauthorization Act, which was to add more funds to school lunches for children. Farm bill. Gosh, I've done so many different things. It's good to get out there. Our politicians get bombarded with different bills and lobbying groups all the time. But I think when they see somebody like myself, I’m a chef, I'm an employer, business owner, real estate owner, it's different than maybe your standard blue suit lobbyists. A lot of times take the time to listen. And many of them come in and eat at our restaurants. So, it's an opportunity to really try to direct change and hopefully when they go to vote for these various bills, they think about the opportunity that they've had to meet with constituents like myself. And hopefully they remember to do the right thing when they place their vote.
You also show how many ways there are to interact with the food system. And ways to try to make improvements, and the scope of your activity is really pretty impressive. So, let's loop back to your book. In your book, you talk about, again in the title, you talk about the New South. What is the New South?
I think a lot of people think of Southern food as shrimp and grits and gumbo and very heavy, rich country cooking. There's a lot of African American influence from the days of slavery. And recipes, ingredients that were brought over during slavery from West Africa, and traditions that arose in Southern cooking from those times. Like everywhere else in the world, the South is evolving and it's one of the most popular places for people to move to within our country, the United States. And we're starting to see this evolution of Southern food, right? It's not just this kind of typical stick to your ribs, Southern cooking anymore. We're starting to see other cultures come in. There's Indian culture, African American culture, Asian cultures that are coming in and they're taking these traditions of Southern food and local food, but then adding their flavors to it. And to me, it's a really exciting time because I’m biased, I love Southern food. I love shrimp and grits. I love these different dishes that are so wonderful. But I love when somebody comes in and they take a recipe, and they add their own touch to it and they tweak it. Because to me, that's, that's adding to our heritage as Southerners. And so, for me, recipes rooted in the New South is this evolution that we're, we're taking Southern food on.
If you wouldn't mind, give us some examples of some of the recipes that are in your book?
I have a number of dishes that I think are really exciting. One of my favorites: I have a red wine braised beef short rib. Serving that with a chili cumin sauce and then a blue cheese and green apple coleslaw. So, it's kind of taking this idea of, you know, of beef and coleslaw, but kind of adding in some other flavors from other cultures. You know, like within that there's a lot of kind of Hispanic flavors as well.
I loved looking through the recipes in your book. And I don't think there was one that I looked at where I wasn't surprised by some ingredient that I didn't expect. Or putting things together in unique ways. The book strikes me as being highly creative. I can just imagine how much work was involved in putting that book together and how long it took. It must sort of be the culmination of a lifetime of work, so congratulations for doing that.
Well, thank you. I think as I mentioned before about the other work I do outside the restaurant. I didn't just want to write a Marketplace restaurant cookbook. I wanted to write a cookbook that talks about, you know, the power of food and the philosophy behind it. But then also have some delicious and creative recipes in there that can be inspiring to folks as well.
BIO
William Stark Dissen is a renowned chef, author, culinary diplomat, restaurateur, and early pioneer of the farm-to-table movement in Asheville, North Carolina, and surrounding regions. His titles also include Seafood Watch Ambassador to The Monterey Bay Aquarium in California, and Official Ambassador for Le Creuset and Mountain Valley Spring Water. Named Fortune Magazine’s “Green Chef of the Year” two years in a row, William’s endeavors in sustainable food and dining, coupled with his passion for foraging and fly-fishing, often take him from the kitchen, into the mountain streams and peaks of the Southeastern, United States, Appalachian region, and beyond. William’s efforts to uplift the principles of food sustainability in his restaurant and network of vendors and suppliers, has not gone unnoticed. It caught the eye of Celebrity Chef Gordon Ramsay, who featured Asheville on NatGeo TV’s, “Gordon Ramsay: Uncharted, Smoky Mountains.” The hour-long episode featured William touring Ramsay through the forest and rivers of Western North Carolina and concluded with the two chefs competing in a peer-reviewed cook-off. William beat Ramsay for the first and only time in the show’s three seasons. Through this experience, Gordon Ramsay named William, “The Most Sustainable Chef on the Planet!”
A career in the culinary arts led Dissen to become an advocate for food policy on Capitol Hill starting in 2010, where he’s lobbied to Congress about the importance of passing legislation, such as The Farm Bill, The Childhood Nutrition Reauthorization Act, and The Magnuson-Stevens Fishery Conservation and Management Act. The Barack Obama administration lauded William as a “White House Champion of Change for Sustainable Seafood” for his work to create healthier oceans. He also serves in the American Chefs Corps in the U.S. State Department, which sees him traveling around the world to promote American food culture and sustainability practices.
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Join Kelly Brownell in a conversation with Michael Dimock, Executive Director of Roots of Change, about transforming food systems through innovative policies. Discover how Roots of Change collaborates with various stakeholders to create nutrition incentive programs and support sustainable agriculture, focusing on community-first approaches. Learn about pioneering projects, insights into policy influence, and the future of agricultural practices. This episode provides an optimistic view of the evolving food system landscape and the potential for significant positive change.
Interview Summary
Why don't we begin by you explaining what Roots of Change does. What's the mission and role of the organization?
Yes. We were originally founded by a group of philanthropic foundations that were very interested in food system change but had not seen much success in years. So we were really designed to be a catalyst to ignite the growth of what we would call the Good Food Movement. For 10 years, we were actually a philanthropic fund investing in different projects that built the power of the food movement. And then implemented projects that would catalyze change. That would show how you could scale change fairly rapidly by building collaboration. So that's really what we've been doing. And in 2013, the philanthropic fund ended, we'd spent down all the money. So we joined the Public Health Institute at that time because public health is such an incredibly important engine for food system change because the food system impacts public health so greatly. We've been since that time focused on policy change and implementing model demonstration projects.
Thanks for that explanation. You talked about catalyzing change for transforming the food system. What sort of changes have you emphasized?
We've been focused on a few key things. I would say that one of the most important for us has been healthy food access. And doing that through the creation of nutrition incentive programs. And the reason we're interested in that is, all the changes that we pursue are aimed to hit several different levers of change simultaneously. By building nutrition incentive programs, you help the small and midsize farmers who are supplying local grocery stores, the farmers markets, and at the same time, you're creating the funding for low-income families to actually purchase organic, regenerative, sustainable agriculture. From their local market. You get a lot of payoff for that kind of action.
You mentioned incentives. How do incentives fit into this?
There is a program, a federal program called the GUSNIP. Named after Gus Schumacher, who was Undersecretary at USDA during the Clinton years, and actually worked with us early on. And so that program is a pool of funding through the Farm Bill that is given as grants to either states or nonprofits that are creating these programs where a family comes in with their SNAP benefits, and their purchasing power is doubled. They're given matching dollars to buy fruits and vegetables from a farmer's market, a local store, grocery store. So it's an incentive to purchase fresh nutritious food. And so, we have worked on the original federal policy. We're one of the first demonstration projects to show how you do nutrition incentives working with folks in the upper Midwest and in the East. And then we created an analog. California also has a matching fund which helps us pull more money from the federal level. So, we can really get a big impact at the local level. And we built that California program as well. We've been really deep in nutrition incentives.
But we also work on farmer farmworker protections from heat. It's a big problem out here in the West. Increasing temperatures. We're working with different scientists, epidemiologists, and farmers to figure out best management practices or technologies that keep farmers cool. And then we also work on programs to provide incentives for ranchers to produce regenerative meat, that is grass-finished meat.
So, those are the three areas working in right now. But we're also just starting a project. I have a meeting today with the California Department of Food and Agriculture to develop a plan for mid and small-scale infrastructure for regional food systems in the state of California to be achieved by 2040.
One thing I really like about your approach is the lining up of incentives to produce food in a way that's better for both human health and the environment. Because so many incentives are lined up the other way. Obviously, the food industry wants to make as much money as they can, and that comes from highly processed foods that aren't very good for health. And then the same sort of incentives lines up for agriculture to do industrial forms of agriculture where you maximize the yield per acre. To turn that around is really going to be a major effort. One thing I like about your approach is that you're trying different things that can become models for what could be used in a very broad scale in terms of public policy. I really admire that and like what you're doing. Do you have an overall strategy for helping bring about change?
One of the things that we did in 2010-11 is we did a deep analysis of the food system and did a systems dynamic map of the entire food system. Working with leaders, Secretary of Agriculture for California, farmers - big size, small size, organic, conventional, with food justice folks. And we looked at where are the real intervention points. One of the things that we really realize is that, as you were pointing out, the current incentives are for industrialization, basically. And so, the question is, how do you actually change that? And policy is one important lever for doing that. So, we work a lot on trying to change the policy levers to create incentives for what we would call healthy and resilient agriculture.
Tell me more about how you go about doing that. I'd love to hear when you're done with that, how you go about doing that with policymakers.
Well, I'll jump right in on that. Let's look at what we did with nutrition incentives. So, working with Fair Food Network out of the upper Midwest, and Wholesome Wave out East, Roots of Change did a study. We created our own nutrition incentive programs using philanthropic dollars and some USDA kind of innovative dollars, and then we studied it for two years, what the impacts were. We wrote a report then, which went to Congress, to Debbie Stabenow in Minnesota, who was the Senator there who was on the ag committee. And she began writing a bill that would say, okay, let's provide incentives for people to buy healthy food that also helped the small farmers. So that switched the incentive from the big agricultural systems to the regional food system players. That was one way we did it.
The other thing that we did in California was we organized all the farmers markets to go to the State of California and say, look, if you provide this nutrition incentive program in California and analog, we'll pull down more dollars from the federal government. The California legislature said that's a great idea. They got on board. Which then helped the farmers markets to provide more funding because farmers markets are often stressed. Too many markets, so there's problems. Competition between markets. So, to provide a new market, which is low-income families who are using nutrition incentives and their SNAP dollars, that was really important for the farmer's market. Those farmer's markets became another big piece of our strategy. Our way of making change was just to build collaborations, large collaborations of people.
We work with many other nonprofits and farming groups in California to approach the legislature and over the last three years we've gotten $1.3 billion dollars in investments from the state of California into sustainable agriculture and food justice. Because we're able to build these large collaborations who convince the legislators who really care about votes that there's enough people out there want to see this happen. And we have just placed a billion-dollar request on the next bond, which will be in the next election, November. This November there's the climate bond. It's called a climate bond for the State of California. Ten billion dollars, one billion of that will be dedicated to nutrition, nutritional health, farm workers, and sustainable agriculture.
So, in all ways, it's about getting enough voices. So, if you look at what we're really trying to do, we're trying to build the power of what we would call the Good Food Movement.
Best of luck with that billion-dollar request. I really hope that goes through. You know, in the beginning of your response to my last question, you talked about a report that you did in concert with other organizations around the country and how that became influential in the policy process. Very often, some of the people in my orbit, scientists, wonder how they can help with this kind of thing and how they can do work that makes a difference. And I've often thought that speaking with people in the policy and advocacy world, like you, turns up some really interesting questions they could help address, if they knew what those questions were. But they often aren't having those conversations because they're mainly speaking to other scientists. That's one of the reasons why I so much like having people who approach things like you do on this podcast series. Scientists aren't our only listeners, but they're among them, and it's nice to give them ideas about how they can connect their work with what's going on out there on the ground in terms of policymaking. So, you emphasize putting people in communities first. What does that mean? And how does that play out in the work you do?
It's a great segue from what you were just saying about the need to combine community voices with nonprofits and scientists, academics, and people who are good at research and who are good at analysis. Back to this idea of nutrition incentives that really grew out of what community groups were doing. The IRC (the International Rescue Committee) works with immigrants from Africa, primarily at that time who were coming into San Diego. And they were farmers, mostly. They were escaping violence, war, in their countries. And they came to San Diego and the IRC worked with them to create a farmer's market, and a farm - a community farm. And those folks were the ones that were saying, this program works. And this is a really good way to solve many problems at once. So, we were hearing from community members and the nonprofit that had created this model. So, it was a way of us understanding what was actually working on the ground. So that's one example.
I can also say that in 2017, 2019 and 2020, we had terrible fires here in California. We also had all that followed with COVID in 2020. We were working with the University of California at Davis. Tom Tomich, who at that time was with the Ag Sustainability Institute at UC Davis. And we were doing research on how do you deal with climate change as small farmers? And what we realized is there was this moment in time when all of these things that have been piling up were impacting the ability to get meat. You'll remember that meat disappeared from shelves for a while because all the big plants that process meat in the Midwest were shut down due to COVID. So, what we did is then went out and we interviewed ranchers up and down the State of California, and we asked them, what do you need? And are you interested in finishing animals for grass-fed markets? Are you interested in building local markets? We got a lot of feedback that led to a white paper that Roots of Change published with the University of California at Davis and put out to the world. Which led to us getting a grant to actually take some of the suggestions and the recommendations we had gotten from the producers about what to do. What's that led to now? We have built a relationship with the University of California: ten campuses, five medical systems. They have committed to buy regenerative regional meat from the State of California. That grew out of a white paper, which was fed information by the ranchers on the ground, analyzed by academics and nonprofits, and delivered in a system that's now gotten the university to make a commitment. So, it's another example of just how you can mix all these great parties to get some sustainable change at a large scale?
Now that leads me pretty nicely to what my next question. And it has to do with what's needed going forward and how do these things occur in more places in a bigger way than the places they are now. Now you mentioned, for example, the regenerative agriculture pledge that got made by the University of California system. That's a big enterprise. There are a lot of people that get touched by that system. So, that's a pretty impressive example of taking an idea that might've been smaller to begin with and then became bigger. Going forward, what kind of things are going to be needed to make that kind of thing happen more often?
That's a really good question. Kelly, I think that one of it is communication. I mean, perhaps some somebody will hear this and reach out to us and say, how'd you do that? And then we'll say, well…and they'll tell us what they did and we'll learn from them. One of the things I'm really interested in, always been interested in, and one of the things that Roots of Change is focused on is trying to convene people to share information. Because you build partnerships when you share information. And those partnerships can become the engines for getting the policy makers or the corporations to change their modalities. How they're doing things. Because they realize, hey, the writing is on the wall. This has to happen. We need to figure out how to get there. And sometimes it's complex to get there because the food system is very complex.
So, I would say that one of the things I'm really looking forward to is more cross collaboration. You know, we're living in the season of elections. We're hearing it on the news all the time. And the thing that drives the policy makers is whether or not they're going to be elected or reelected. And so, the more that we can convince them that there is a large majority of the public that wants to see these fundamental changes in the food system. We will have their support. We've seen it in California. We are getting incredible support from our Secretary of Agriculture, our governor, and our Secretary of Natural Resources. They work together to create things on the ground. I would say that the Tom Vilsack and Biden did a lot for regenerative agriculture, working on two big projects that have been funded by the USDA that will touch a thousand ranchers of bison and beef to get them to learn about, adapt, adopt, and then build new markets for their products. So that's an important piece. The other is the marketplace and companies want to sell their products. So, the more that consumers become discerning and what they're purchasing, the better off we're going to be. So, we have a podcast like you do. And what we're trying to do is just educate people about the connections between what they're doing and what the farmers and ranchers out there who are trying to do good work with the land and with health and with their workers. We just try to promote this idea of making good decisions about what they purchase.
Tell us a little bit more about your podcast, which is called Flipping the Table. Tell us more about what you're trying to accomplish and the kind of people that you speak with.
Well, it's similar to yours in a certain way, I would say. Because what I'm doing is interviewing the people that are doing the kinds of projects that we think are scaling change or could scale change. Or people who have a depth of understanding. So, the regenerative meat world, we've done a lot in the last few years. Talking to Nicolette Hahn Nyman, who wrote a couple of books about the meat system, with a great rancher up in Northern California, who advises other ranchers on how to finish their animals on grass in California in a dry environment. I just, today we dropped a podcast with Cole Mannix from the Old Salt Co op in Montana about the ranchers he's pulled together. The co op he's built that has a slaughter plant, restaurants, a meat shop, and has an online thing. And then they do a big, they do a big annual event in the summer during the solstice. So, you know, we're just trying to get voices who, like you are, who are, who are modeling and educating the public around what is happening. How much is actually happening. I've been in this world for 30 years almost, and I have to say, I have never been more optimistic about the scale of change, the accelerating speed of change, and the possibilities that lay ahead.
BIO
Michael Dimock is an organizer and thought leader on food and farming systems and heads Roots of Change (ROC) a project of the Public Health Institute. ROC develops and campaigns for smart, incentive-based food and farm policies that position agriculture and food enterprises as solutions to critical challenges of the 21st century. Since 2006, Michael has been spawning and leading education and policy campaigns, community dialogues and creative engagements with government and corporate leaders to advance regenerative food and farm policies and practices that make agriculture and food enterprises solutions to critical public health challenges of the 21st century. His leadership has helped create one new law and funding program at the federal level and three new California laws that included two new funding programs and five successful budget requests. He began his career in 1989 as a sales executive in Europe for agribusiness and in 1992 founded Ag Innovations Network to provide strategic planning for companies and governments seeking healthier food and agriculture. In 1996, he founded Slow Food Russian River and, from 2002 to 2007, he was Chairman of Slow Food USA and a member of Slow Food International’s board of directors. Michael’s love for agriculture and food systems grew from experiences on a 13,000-acre cattle ranch in Santa Clara County in his youth and a development project with Himalayan subsistence farmers in Nepal in 1979. He is the host of the podcast Flipping the Table featuring honest conversations about food, farms and the future.
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Study after study has shown that consumption of sugar sweetened beverages poses clear health risk. So how have the big soda companies, Coke and Pepsi in particular, reacted to this news and to public health policies that have aimed to restrict their business dealings like marketing, labeling, and even taxes? A fascinating and important part of this history has been told in a new book by Dr. Susan Greenhalgh called Soda Science: Making the World Safe for Coca Cola. Dr. Greenhalgh is the John King and Wilma Cannon Fairbank Professor of Chinese Society Emerita at Harvard University. But hold on, what in the heck does China have to do all this? Well, we're about to find out. This will be a very interesting discussion.
Interview Summary
Let's begin by setting the context for your book, again, on soda science. Back in 2015, the New York Times published a major expose, written by Anahat O'Connor, and a critique of what was called the Global Energy Balance Network (GEBN), that was funded by Coca Cola. Could you explain what this network was?
Sure. The GEBN was an international network of researchers that argued that the energy balance framework is the best approach for addressing the obesity epidemic. So that simple framework calls for balancing the energy in - the number of calories consumed through eating with a number of calories burned - through moving to achieve a healthy weight. While that sounds neutral in practice, in the early 2000s, Coke and the food industry at large, adopted energy balance as their motto. It had several advantages. One is under the banner of "energy balance," the industry and the scientists working with it could say that people could eat whatever they wanted and then exercise it off. Unfortunately, that doesn't work for most people. Second, in practice, the energy balance slogan was used to promote exercise as the priority solution. What the research shows about energy is that exercise helps, but the primary answer to the obesity issue is to eat fewer unhealthy foods. Now the third advantage to the energy balance framework is that talking about energy balance meant the companies and the GEBN didn't need to mention soda taxes, or other legislative and regulatory measures, that worked but that might hurt the industry.
So, in my book, I call this body of ideas adopted by the GEBN and the food industry “Soda Science.” That's short for Soda Defense Science - a science created not so much to understand obesity, as to defend the profits of the soda industry.
Okay, that all makes sense, and I totally agree with your interpretation of the science that food intake is much more important in the obesity epidemic, in particular, than physical activity. It's not that activity is unimportant, but to divert attention away from the dietary part of it is really a public health misdeed. But one can obviously see the benefit to the industry for making that diversion. So, in that 2015 article, it was highly critical of the conflicts of interest that had been created by the soda industry paying prominent scientists. What benefits did the company reap from making these payments and what happened after that article got published?
The GEBN was the product of the 15 years that came before it, of gradually building up this soda science. The GEBN itself lasted only about a year, but during that 15-year period, the industry benefited by having fewer people, fewer specialists, fewer countries talking about soda taxes. But what happened after the GEBN was outed in the New York Times in late 2015 was Coca Cola was absolutely mortified. The revelation that the company had paid for industry-friendly science was just incredibly embarrassing. So, under absolutely withering criticism from scientists and the public, Coke stopped funding the GEBN, which of course led to its collapse. The company also took a major turn in its approach to obesity. Vowing to no longer single-handedly fund scientific research, and by publishing a long so-called transparency list of all the individuals and organizations it had funded over the last 5 years.
So, those things helped, but Coke's reputation remains tarnished to this day. But meanwhile, as for the academic scientists behind the GEBN, they saw things differently. They continued to maintain that their science had not been affected by the 20 million dollars that Coke had promised to support their network. Of the four researchers who led the GEBN effort, two stepped down and found wonderful jobs elsewhere. They both have leadership positions in different universities. One retired and the fourth continues to work in his previous position. So, there was no single, discernible impact on these debates within the academy.
I know some of the individuals involved. And by the way, I know a good bit of information available to understand what this network was doing came from Freedom of Information requests that various parties made. And your book contains transcripts from emails and things like that, that these various scientists were sharing with the industry. The content of those is extremely interesting and very telling. And the result, it's sort of this good-old-boy-back-slapping-network of people who were kind of winking - let's go get the people that don't like us. It's just interesting. My impression is that some pretty negative consequences befell at least two of those academics afterwards. You know, there was a lot of embarrassment. One basically, I think, had to leave the job he had. Another, suffered some real penalties in his academic life. And so, it wasn't outcome free, or it wasn't penalty free for these scientists at the end of the day. But I do think that your basic point is well made. That lots of people take lots of money from lots of industries on lots of topics. Not just on food, but you know energy and environment and all kinds of things. And very rarely do they pay any kind of a penalty. It only took this investigative report by the New York Times to shed special light on how pernicious this particular one was. But let me ask you a question, and then I kind of have my own thoughts about it. Why don't you think anything more happened to the people that got caught? I don't know if caught is the right word. But at least that they're taking industry money and their favorable science for industry got exposed. Why don't you think more happened about that?
The scientists themselves were deeply convinced that they hadn't done anything wrong. They were convinced that their science was not affected by all the money that they had taken from Coke, and the scientific nonprofit working for the industry, over all those years. I think there's a significant fraction of folks in the public health field, or at least in the obesity research field, who think the same thing. There's just a lot of support for them. As I see it, the two people who lost their original jobs have bounced back. I haven't done a survey of the field to ask people what they feel about these researchers, but they did pretty well given what they did.
The reason I think that they're convinced that they didn't do anything wrong is they have these practices, I call them “doing ethics,” to assure the world and themselves that their scientific integrity is intact. And one of the practices that these guys used was to constantly say, "This problem of obesity epidemic, it's huge. We have to include the food industry as our partner." And then when you go there, food industry begins to have a huge voice and there's very little you can do to effectively restrain it.
You know, it's an interesting way to think about it and consistent with the way I've thought about it over the years. I've done some writing on this topic and it seems to me that scientists have, not all scientists by all means, but a few select ones, get sought out by industry. And then this blind spot ensues where if you ask these scientists sort of, in general, does research get tainted or affected by industry money? They'll say yes. But if you ask does YOUR research get tainted by it? They'll say no. ‘Oh, no, I'm above that. I can be objective We have to change from within.’ There's a whole series of rationalizations for taking the money. But do they ever stop and ask, why is industry investing this money? And industry is not stupid. They wouldn't be paying you $50,000 as a consultant, or putting you on boards, or flying you around the world, or funding your research if there was no return from it. And the research on it is absolutely clear. Industry-funded research typically finds industry favorable results. So, all that's been documented. But the scientists who want to get involved with industry and take the money don't kind of interpret it that way. Like ‘I can take money but be free of the temptations to bias the work I do.’
May I just interject something here? I think that they believe it's a win-win prospect. Of course, Coke wants to emphasize exercise to make people forget about their sugar. But I've just dug long and hard into those emails, which none of the scientists ever thought would be read and used in scholarly accounts. But in the emails, the leader of the GEBN wanted to fund a major research project that he was promoting, and he's arguing all the reasons that Soda Science was good for Coca Cola. I suspect that he thought that Coke wasn't influencing him. Instead, he was influencing Coke. And in fact he was, but it doesn't matter where the influence comes from because in the end the science is affected.
You know, I've often asked myself, if there are negative consequences from this, the question is isn't there a police force out there looking after this kind of thing? And it's hard to know who that would be, because the scientists themselves have shown that enough of them are willing to take the money. And so the scientists aren't policing themselves sufficiently. Their institutions, the universities, tend not to do it because they're taking money from industry, too, in some way, generally. And their university's response to that is you have to disclose that you're taking money from industry. But there's research on disclosure, and that seems to make things worse rather than better. The journals that people publish their work in do the same thing. They make people disclose, but that doesn't have much impact. And professional associations have been investigated every which way by one of the same people who wrote that article in 2015, showing that they take money from industry. So, how can they police their members? So, it seems to me that the police have to be the press and people that do investigative scholarly work like you've done in this book. The book is pretty new. So, it's a little early to say what its impact is going to be. But let's hope that a lot of people read this book. And get more insight into how this works, how people feel when they're involved in this money taking, and what the ultimate impact might be.
So let's turn to one particular area of expertise you have. Let's talk about China. So almost all the criticism on industry-funded efforts like the Global Energy Balance Network have been focused on the U.S. But you follow the soda trail to China. So why did you do that and what's the significance of this inquiry?
Really significant. The GEBN was part of a much larger corporate project that was absolutely global in scope. So, from the vantage point of the industry, the U.S. has long been a declining market for soda. The important markets for sugary drinks are the large rapidly developing countries in the Global South. So that's where the industry is focusing its efforts to sell product, that is junk food and drinks. And to promote a corporate science and corporate policy that stresses exercise over dietary change in soda taxes.
China has 1.4 billion people these days. One billion back in 1980 when Coke set up shop in China. China was the single biggest market for the soda companies. Coke was so keen to get into the China market that it started lobbying early. Actually the mid 1970s, when Mao Zedong was still alive. And in 1978, Coke became the very first Western company to set up shop in China as the country opened up for the first time in 30 years to the market, into the global economy.
And another advantage of the Global South, from the point of view of the food industries, is an attitude toward Western firms that's less critical than what you find in the U.S. In the U.S., huge companies are always under suspicion that they will promote corporate interests over socially valued goals. So those attitudes are much less prevalent in many countries in the Global South where big companies are often seen as agents of development, essential agents. In China, big Western companies were celebrated as sources of capital and advanced interests. So, nobody would suspect they were hurting the country. And the industry has lots of ways of dressing this up in a self-serving, positive way, by talking about developing emerging markets, investments in the developing world, and things like this. But it strikes me also as being stunningly similar to what the tobacco companies did when they got hammered in the United States. They simply moved outside the United States and tried to sell as many cigarettes as beyond our borders as they could. And a lot of these same sort of phenomenon take place. Does that seem true to you?
Absolutely. So let me ask what actually occurred in China. So, Coke sets its sights on China. It has this kind of process established that's trying to affect policy through connections with scientists. So, what actually took place in China? What was the impact on policies?
Well, to understand that, we need to know that the food industry had a magic weapon way back in the late 1970s. The food industry created an industry-funded scientific nonprofit based in DC that was global in scope. And whose job was to sponsor science that served industry needs. Its name was ILSI (International Life Sciences Institute). So, in China, the local branch of ILSI organized a series of major conferences and other activities designed to combat obesity. Over time, the proportion of these anti-obesity activities focusing on exercise rose dramatically, while the proportion focusing on diet sank.What this shows is that the food industry had tilted China's approach to obesity. ILSI China also played a major role in creating China's first and most important policies on obesity. The most important was the National Campaign for Healthy Lifestyles, ironically modeled after the patriotic health campaigns that Mao used to promote in his day. So, that healthy lifestyle campaign drew heavily on the Soda Science created by Coke, ILSI, and their academic friends. So, that ‘healthy lifestyle’ campaign prioritized exercise in a number of ways. Said nothing about sugar and soda. And it made the individual, not the government or industry, responsible for fixing the obesity problem. So, with this campaign, ILSI China had smuggled the policy favored by the food industry into China's policies.
That's an amazing history that you've documented. And it occurs to me that in the United States, we can celebrate public health victories, like the huge decline in cigarette smoking that occurred. And, the big decline that's occurred in sugared beverage consumption too. And those things are all good. But if this is like a balloon and you're just squeezing the end of it here, but it expands elsewhere in the world, the overall public health impact could be even worse than when you started, not better. And it sounds like the industry-funded front groups have been pretty responsible for making that happen.
Yes, they're incredibly effective. In my view, I really took apart ILSI, looking at it as an organizational sociologist. And I think it's just brilliantly designed to make academic-looking science that benefits industry. And to keep everything hidden from sight under that label nonprofit. It's really quite brilliant. They're not very happy with this project.
And the work that you've done, and the investigative journalists have done in the U. S., to expose these industry ties can have traction in the U. S. much more so in a country like China. So, it sounds like there's probably not much to put the brakes on this kind of thing in China. Is that right?
To tell the truth, there's a younger group of obesity experts, trained in the U.S., who now are based in China and have written major articles. There was a three-part series in The Lancet in 2021 on obesity in China. And they are on board with a critique of the food industry and working in every way they can to bring that to the attention of officials. But the government has a vested interest in the success of Coca Cola. I have to say that Coca Cola, and there's a huge state-owned enterprise called COFCo, they now have a partnership called COFCo Coca Cola, that runs the bottlers in 19 provinces, representing something like 60-70 percent of the Chinese population. So, the government has a vested interest in making sure Coca Cola remains happy.
Let's talk about that just a bit more. So, Susan, you'd think that the Chinese government would be in a conflicted position with this. On one hand, they want to financially benefit from Coca Cola prospering in their country. And I'm sure officials are benefiting individually from that kind of thing. But the country doesn't benefit because they certainly don't want high rates of diabetes and heart disease and obesity and other things that come from consumption of these products. How do you think that that plays out? Is it just that the short-term financial benefits are prevailing over the longer-term health consequences?
I think the government is highly conflicted. It has a number of policy, overarching policy themes, that it has been promoting ever since opening up in the late 70s and early 80s. One of those themes is marketization, growing the economy, advancing the technology in high end industries. And nothing can interfere with the achievement of that goal. China is known around the world for having very sophisticated environmental policies. But when push comes to shove, market goals prevail over environmental goals. I think the very same thing happens with health. It's just astonishing to see how market forces and market logics pervade the health sector. I did a separate piece of research, it's not in this book. But it shows that the major western food companies have been partnering with the Chinese government to carry out China's policies on chronic disease. And that means they're teaching the Chinese people basic notions of good nutrition. And what they're teaching them is not that soda is bad, is that, you know, it's that you can drink soda as long as you go ahead and exercise at all. I think there are major fundamental conflicts here at the level of profound party policy. I think this is going to be very hard to address.
I was going to say that's just a stunning observation. That part of the food nutrition education has been turned over to the food industry.
Absolutely. And you can, you can read about it in the Chinese media every year. They have, it's called Food Week or Nutrition Week, that's sponsored by the Chinese Nutrition Society, which is nominally independent. And they invite Western food companies to come in and sponsor a big project within that week. And of course they're very happy to do it.
Unbelievable. So, a chapter of your book is entitled Doing Ethics, the Silent Scream. What do you mean by that?
Let me start with just a little bit of background. So, in China, the head of the ILSI branch operated as a virtual health ministry official. Kind of a de facto part of the government. So, no one could question what she did, part of the government, no questioning the government. As I just mentioned, most of the scientists I interviewed believed that Coke and other food and beverage companies were positive forces in China. They loved Coke's corporate social responsibility programs and had them all in their head and regaled me with these stories of schools in the rural areas supported by Coke. They thought everything was above board. They thought that ILSI's science was objective or disinterested. They couldn't imagine that Coke was supporting policies that benefited the corporate bottom line while harming the health of the Chinese people. Now, getting to that chapter, some very senior scientists, folks who had worked in the field before money came to dominate everything in China, they knew in their hearts that the food industry was corrupting China's science and policy. But it was very dangerous for them to talk about it. They certainly didn't volunteer those feelings to me. But when I began to ask really probing questions, they quietly acknowledged that yes, of course, corporate funding shapes the science. But the whole subject caused them just incredible angst. They couldn't talk about it. They certainly couldn't talk about it in public, and they couldn't do anything about it. And so, they issued a silent scream. And this is a really important part of the story of China. There really are voices of resistance, voices that see through the official line that everything's being done correctly. The readers of this book can hear that silent scream in that last chapter.
That's a pretty, pretty amazing story. Well, you know, it's heartening in a way that in a country like China, where the government controls so much of what day to day life is like, that there is some activity. At least some pushback, some resistance. So, let's hope ultimately that the objective science prevails. That the industry influence wanes, and the public health will be protected. So, speaking of chapters in your book, the last two chapters are titled, Soda Science Lives On. And then the final chapter, So What and What Now. Tell us more.
Oh sure, I'd love to. Soda Science Lives On: that's like the conclusion to the China part. I show how, even to this day, the provisions of Soda Science continue to shape China's policies on obesity and chronic disease more generally. In the last decade, President Xi Jinping has stressed the importance of including health in all policies, which is good. But a close look suggests that his signature policy package, that's called Healthy China 2030, bears the imprint of the Coca Cola company and -promotes ILSI's trademark exercise programs that omit soda taxes. And have a strong market orientation that makes individuals, again, not companies, not even the government, fundamentally responsible for maintaining a healthy weight through their healthy lifestyle choices. This, of course, neglects the importance of China's obesogenic environment and the impact of that environment on the choices available to individuals. So, this part of the book also introduces a group of next generation Chinese scientists who understand the threat posed by big food constantly lobbying the government to introduce policies to restrict its power.
I've talked about the impact on China, but I'm also very interested in the impact on America, especially American fitness culture. In the book's conclusion, what I do is I take the short history of Soda Science. And I place that in the context of the much larger history of the post-World War II history of American fitness culture. What I suggest is that Soda Science was instrumental in creating today's Fitbit wearing, step counting, exercise and obesity-obsessed culture that assumes that exercise by itself can take off pounds. That 10,000 steps a day is going to solve all my problems. It won't, but the idea is very much part of our everyday thinking about obesity. There's a lot of work to do.
As we all know, those big food companies are some of the wealthiest and most powerful forces in the world. Way richer than any of any fields of science in America. For critical scientists and social scientists, the effort to chip away at their power through the power of expose and documenting the truth often feels quite futile, time consuming and useless. But in fact, our work can make a difference. And I document this in the book. In the last few years, Coca Cola cut its ties with ILSI. That is big because Coca Cola was the founding company behind ILSI. Two other companies have also dropped ILSI. ILSI itself has also undergone a major reorganization and this is big - ILSI China has dissolved. It is no longer.
I'd like to think that the in-depth research of the social sciences has exposed what is really going on and left these corporate science organizations little choice but to close shop, or fundamentally change how they work. That's my secret dream. So this, this is progress, yes, but the food industry is still at it, for sure. Especially in the Global South. The industry is focusing its energies on defending junk food and drinks by opposing regulatory measures that have proven successful. You know, taxes, front of package warning labels, marketing restrictions and so on. So even in countries that have developed, often with the assistance of American researchers, really impressive chronic disease prevention programs, the industry has been moving aggressively to weaken, delay, or block them. Our work has just begun. And I really hope some listeners will be, will be encouraged to join the force of all of us working to expose and change how things are happening.
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Susan Greenhalgh is John King and Wilma Cannon Fairbank Professor of Chinese Society Emerita in the Anthropology Department and Fairbank Center for Chinese Studies at Harvard University. A former Guggenheim fellow, she is a specialist in the social study of science, technology, and medicine, especially as these intersect with questions of policy, governance, and the state.
Her latest book, Soda Science: Making the World Safe for Coca-Cola (2024), uncovers the secret strategies by which Big Food, working with allies in academia, created an industry-friendly, “soda-defense” science of obesity that argued that the priority solution to the obesity epidemic is exercise, not dietary restraint, and that soda taxes are not necessary – views few experts accept. For 15 years the “soda scientists” were highly successful in promoting these ideas, eventually getting them built into Chinese policy, where they remain today. An earlier study of the American obesity epidemic, Fat-Talk Nation: The Human Costs of America’s War on Fat (2015), illuminates some of the unexpected consequences of the national panic over obesity for the bodies, lives, and selves of vulnerable young people. Under the Medical Gaze: Facts and Fictions of Chronic Pain (2001) presents a case study of iatrogenic injury, illustrating medicine’s power to define disease and the self, and manage relationships and lives, and sometime induce suffering.
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Join host Norbert Wilson and co-host Kerilyn Schewel in the latest episode of the Leading Voices in Food podcast as they dive deep into the world of small-scale fisheries with two distinguished guests: Nicole Franz from the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations (FAO) and John Virdin from Duke University's Nicholas Institute for Energy, Environment, and Sustainability. Discover the significant role small-scale fisheries play in food security, economic development, and community livelihoods. Learn about the unique challenges these fisheries face, and how community-led climate adaptation alongside top-down national policies can help build resilience. This episode also highlights collaborative efforts between academia and organizations like FAO, painting a comprehensive picture of the state and future of small-scale fisheries.
Interview Summary
Kerilyn - So, Nicole, let's begin with you. Why is your work at the UN's Food and Agriculture Organization focused on small-scale fisheries and fishing communities? And could you share with us how they are different from fisheries more broadly? What's unique about them and their role in food production?
Nicole - Yes. Let me start with the latter question. And I think the first thing is to clarify actually what are small-scale fisheries, no? Because sometimes if you think about small-scale fisheries, what most people will have in mind is probably that of a man in a small boat fishing. But in reality, it's a sector that is much more diverse. There are, for example, women in Indonesia that are collecting clams by foot. Foot fishers. Or we have examples from small-scale fisheries that are fishing boats in Norway, which are comparably small, but if you compare them, for example, with how small-scale fishing looks in a place like Mozambique, it's a very different scale. But all of that, however, is comprised in what we understand as small-scale fisheries.
It is also important to understand that when we talk about small-scale fisheries in FAO, we don't only limit it to what is happening in the water, the harvesting part, but we also include what happens once the fish is out of the water. So, once it's processed, then, and when it's traded. So, so it's a whole supply chain that is connected to that small-scale fisheries production that we understand as being small-scale fisheries. And with Duke University, with John who is present here, and other colleagues and other colleagues from World Fish, we did a global study where we tried to estimate the global contributions of small-scale fisheries to sustainable development. And what we found was that at least 40 percent of the global catch is actually coming from inland and marine small-scale fisheries. And that's, that's enormous. That's a huge, huge amount. More important almost is that, that 90 percent of all the people that are employed in capture fisheries are in small-scale fisheries. And that is the human dimension of it. And that's why the community dimension is so important for the work. Because it is that big amount of people, 61 million people, that are employed in the value chains.
And in addition to that, we estimated that there are about 53 million people that are actually engaging in small-scale fisheries for subsistence. So, if we consider those people that are employed in small-scale fisheries, plus those that are engaging for subsistence, and all their household members, we're actually talking about close to 500 million people that depend at least partially on small-scale fisheries for their livelihoods.
We also looked at the economic dimensions of small-scale fisheries, and we found that the value from the first sale of small-scale fishery products amounts to 77 billion. So, these numbers are important. They show the importance of small-scale fisheries in terms of their production, but also in terms of the livelihood [00:05:00] dimension, in terms of the economic value that they generate.
And, last but not least, we also looked at the nutritional value from small-scale fisheries. And we estimated that the catch from small-scale fisheries would be able to supply almost 1 billion women globally with 50 percent of the recommended omega 3 fatty acid intake. So, I think with all of these numbers, hopefully, I can convey why the focus on small-scale fish is, in the context of food security and poverty eradication in particular, is of fundamental importance.
Kerilyn - Thanks, Nicole. That's really helpful to get a kind of global picture. If I could follow up to ask, what regions of the world are small-scale fisheries more common, or do economies rely on them? And in what regions do you see them disappearing? Are they common in countries like the US, for example?
Well, they're certainly more common in what is often considered as a Global South. In Asia in particular, we encountered the largest total numbers, absolute numbers, in terms of people involved in terms of production. But also in Africa, Latin America, the Caribbean. In the Pacific, obviously, they play a crucial role. They are more and more disappearing in the US, for example, in Europe. We see that it is a livelihood that is no longer very common. And one of the features we see there that it's an aging sector, it's a shrinking sector, for a number of reasons. But they still define the characteristic of certain areas where they really are part of the identity and of the local culture, even in the U.S. or in many, many places in Europe.
Norbert - Nicole, this is really fascinating. Thank you for sharing this broad overview of what's happening and who are small-scale fishers. What are some of the common challenges that these small-scale fishers and fisheries face? And what is FAO's response to those challenges?
Nicole - Well, where to start? There are so many challenges. I think one fundamental challenge that is common across all regions is securing access to fishing grounds. But not only to fishing grounds, but also to the coastal areas where operations, where they land the boats, where they, where the process of fish, where the fishing villages and communities are located. In many areas around the world, we see expansion of tourism, expansion of urban areas and coastal areas. The increase of other industries that are competing for the space now, and that are often stronger economically more visible than small-scale fisheries. So, the competition over space in those areas is quite an issue.
But there are also many challenges that are more outside of the fishing activity directly. For example, often small-scale fishing communities lack access to services. We had basic services such as education or health services, social protection. And in many cases, women are particularly disadvantaged in relation to access to these services. For example, women that are involved in harvesting or in processing of fish in small-scale fisheries, they often do not know where to leave their children while they are at work because there's no childcare facility in many of these villages. And there are 45 million women that are engaged in small-scale fisheries around the world.
Another set of challenges relates to the value chains and the markets. Often there's limited infrastructure to connect to markets. The processing and storage facilities are not adequate to bring the product to the market in a state that allows it to then fetch good prices and to benefit from the value chain. Often small-scale fishers and fish workers are also not well organized. So, they become more subject to power imbalances along the value chain where they have to be price takers. Now they have to accept what is offered. That also relates often to a lack of transparency in relation to market information. And of course, then we have another set of challenges that are coming from climate change that are becoming more and more important. And from other types of disasters also.
One thing that brings together all these challenges, or makes them worse, is often the lack of representative structures and also institutional structures that allow for participation in relevant decision making or management processes. So that small-scale fishers and fish workers don't even have an opportunity to flag their needs or to propose solutions. So, FAO has facilitated a process to develop Voluntary Guidelines for Securing Sustainable Small-scale Fisheries in the Context of Food security and Poverty Eradication. Quite a mouthful of a name. In short, we call them small-scale fisheries guidelines. In which all the major challenges in a way are compiled in one document together with guidance on how to address them. And these guidelines are the result of a participatory development process. So, they are really informed by the involvement of fishing communities from around the world, but also other stakeholders. And they have been agreed on and have been endorsed by the almost 200 members of the FAO. We are now working with countries, with the small-scale fishing communities around the world, with other partners, including Duke University, to help implement these small-scale fisheries guidelines.
Norbert - Oh, this is really fascinating and it's important work. I'm intrigued with the participatory process. How are small-scale fisher organizations involved in this? Are you working with different organizations? Or is this more individuals who are just interested in this issue coming to the fore?
This is through organizations at all levels. Be it at the national level where we are, for example, facilitating the formation of new women organizations in a number of African countries. Be it at the regional level, in particular in Africa, there are existing structures in the context of the African union, which has established so called non state actor platforms for fisheries and aquaculture, which we are supporting in order to bring their voice into the processes and to facilitate peer learning. And then there's a number of global social movements and producer organizations for small-scale fisheries that we are working with and using them as a facilitator to involve as many as possible. And gather as much insight that is coming from the membership of those organizations to then bring into global, regional, national processes from our side.
Norbert - This is really important to hear how different forms of governance and at different levels are playing a part in developing these guidelines. Thank you for sharing that, Nicole. I'd like to turn to you, John. You have more than 20 years of experience in studying and advising government policies to regulate human use of the oceans. With a particular focus on marine conservation practices. How has your thinking about marine conservation changed over the last 20 years?
John - Yeah, it's changed a bit. As you mentioned, my interest in work has been on ocean conservation and how it can alleviate poverty. A lot of times that has meant managing fisheries to address poverty. And I think in the past, that meant that I was really focused on what governments could do to increase the efficiency of fisheries. The economic efficiency. How do we increase incomes, how do you increase revenues for communities? All very important, but for all the reasons that Nicole mentioned, I spend a lot more time now thinking about the process rather than the outcomes, and thinking about what institutions are in place, or can be created, to help empower small-scale fishing communities to have much more of a voice in the decisions that affect them. In how the resources are used. How the space is used. And Nicole outlined really well a lot of the challenges that are facing communities from increased industrialization of ocean use to the squeeze from climate change and the effect on resources. And even the fact that climate change may be driving people to the oceans. I mean, as farms and agricultures maybe fail or face challenges, oceans are often open access, and can even be a sink for people to make a livelihood. And so, yet more pressures coming from outside these fisheries. How can fishers have a greater voice in making the decisions that impact them and safeguarding their livelihoods?
Norbert - Thank you for that. I'm interested in understanding how do these fisher folks, who are trying to organize and are organizing, how does that interact with sort of larger markets? I mean, I would imagine a number of these folks are catching fish and other seafood that goes into global markets. What's the interaction or challenges that may happen there?
John - As Nicole mentioned, because small-scale fisheries are so diverse you have markets in many places. These may be located near an urban center where you can have easy access. You can get fresh fish in a cooler and put it on a plane and off it goes to an export market. We found that, what may be surprised us, is a significant number of small-scale fishers are exporting in some cases. So, then that can be challenging because you might get higher prices, which is a good thing. But it might drive, for example, more fishing effort. It might drive higher levels of exploitation. It might change traditional practices, traditional rules for fisheries. It might really change how fishers organize in a given place. So, the access to export markets, even say an island setting, has kind of scrambled past fisheries management in some places and can be an outside force.
Kerilyn - John and Nicole, I want to ask you both a question now about painting a picture of these communities that you're working with. You both mentioned how diverse small-scale fisheries can be. I was wondering if you could just share what one community in particular looks like that you've worked with? What are the challenges that a particular community faces, or alternatively, where do you see things actually working well? So Nicole, could I ask you to respond first?
Nicole - I'm working more with global processes and the global level. So, through that, I have the privilege of working with representatives from many, many communities. So maybe what I can share is the feedback that I'm getting through that, in terms of the change that we can observe, and that is affecting fishing communities around the world. I think one thing that is being brought up as a concern by many is what I mentioned before. It's a process of aging in fishing communities and often a lack of capacity to retain young people in the sector. And that has different reasons. Now there are all of these challenges that small-scale fisheries have to face and that are difficult to overcome. So, that often drives people, in particular young men, to leave the communities. Or within the communities, to look for other alternative livelihoods now and not to take on the skills of fishermen or getting engaged in small-scale fisheries more broadly. So, in some cases, yes, it's not only other activities within the community, but really leaving the community and leaving in some cases also the country. What we see there is that sometimes people that have the skills, maybe still as a fisher, they have tried to fish. So, they have a knowledge of fishing. They emigrate out into other countries. And in some cases they are then hired into industrial fisheries where they work on industrial boats that go out fishing for longer periods of time. But where they at times end up in situations that can be called slave labor, basically, that are subject to serious violations of human rights. And that is in a way generated by this vulnerability to the poverty that is still there in those communities. The lack of being able to make a living, a decent work in the fishing community. So, that is something that we have seen is happening. We have also seen that in some cases, there's an involvement of fishers into say more illegal activities, be it in drug trafficking, be it also into the trafficking of people.
I'm thinking even about the Mediterranean. I'm working out of Italy, Rome. We have a lot of immigration from North African countries, for example, coming through that route. And oftentimes it happens that the transport of migrants is actually carried out by fishers and their boats because they have the skill to navigate the sea. And they make a better living by transporting illegal migrants than going fishing. So, those are some of the challenges we hear.
And the other one is there in relation to what is now a concept that is getting more and more traction. It's often known as the blue economy, which is, in a way, looking at the ocean as the last frontier for economic development. And that includes on the one hand, the expansion of previously existing industries, such as tourism. But also the expansion of newer sectors such as alternative energy production. Think wind parks now in coastal areas. So, what happens here is that in many cases, this adds again, additional pressure on the available maritime space. In the water and on the land. The expansion of marine aquaculture is another example. So, that also is something that we hear is becoming an issue for small-scale fishing communities to defend the space that they need to maintain their lifestyle.
Kerilyn - John, is there anything you'd like to add on this question of how fisheries are changing?
John - Very, very briefly. Taking the example in West Africa where I've spent some time over the years, you certainly have some communities there where it actually doesn't seem as if the fisheries are changing as much in the sense it's quite static and stagnant. And this could be caused by a lot of the reasons that Nicole mentioned, but the community, the economy, the fisheries aren't growing. People, young people may be leaving for a number of reasons, but it doesn't have to be that way either. I mean, there are positive examples. I was in Liberia last week, and there, from the numbers that the government has, small-scale fishing communities are growing. The number of fishers are growing. They've actually made a conscious effort to protect a certain area of the ocean just for small-scale fisheries. And to prohibit trawling and to give the communities more space to grow and operate in the 20 years since the conflict ended there. So, again, it doesn't have to be sort of stagnant or grinding on in some of these communities as they cope with competition for resources, for example, competition for space from others. Where they were given that space, in some cases in Liberia, they've grown. That may have its own challenges but.
Kerilyn - Interesting. In the back of my mind, when thinking about these communities and aging and migration of younger generations away from these livelihoods, you know, as someone who studies the relationship between migration and development, I think it's a common trend where, you know, as countries develop, young people leave traditional economic activities. They get more educated, they move to cities, they move abroad. To what degree is this somehow just part of these countries' development? Should we expect young people to be leaving them? And to what degree might we think differently about development in a way that would enable more young people to stay? And I think, John, you mentioned a really interesting point about how protecting the space For these small-scale fisheries to operate is one thing that seems to have kept people engaged in this livelihood. I'd be curious if there's other things that come up for you. Other ways of thinking about enhancing the capability to stay in small-scale fishing livelihoods.
John - Sure, and I'd be curious what Nicole's seeing from her perspective. I think, to some extent, it's a different question if small-scale fisheries are economically viable. And so, what I think Nicole and I are referring to in many cases is where for a lot of these external pressures upon them, they may not be as viable as they once were. And that has its own push on people, whereas where fishers are empowered, they have more of a voice in what happens to the fisheries and controlling those spaces and resources, and it can be more economically viable in these fisheries. That presents a different set of choices for young people then. So that's where we've really focused is: okay, what is the process by which small-scale fishing communities have their voices heard more, have much more of a say and much more power in the use of the fisheries, the use of the coastal areas, the things that affect those fisheries and their livelihoods? And then we can see what those choices might look like. But Nicole, I'm not sure if that's consistent with what you've seen in a number of places.
Nicole - Yes, and maybe to also rebalance a bleak picture I painted before. Like John said, there are obviously good examples. I think an important condition is probably a linkage to markets. Non-economic viability in many ways does play a role. And there are examples of how that can happen in different ways. For example, in Morocco, the country has made quite a significant investment to build a whole series of ports for small-scale fisheries. Specifically, along the entire coastline of Morocco where they are providing a port that is not just a landing site for small-scale fisheries, but it provides like a system of integrated services. There's an auction hall. So, the fish comes in, it's immediately kind of weighted. They get the information, the label for what they have brought in, then it goes into an auction that has set rules and everybody is tied to. But in that same area, for example, there's also a bank or there is an office that helps with the access to social protection services, for example. So, it's a whole integrated service center, and that really makes a difference to help make the sector more efficient. But at the same time, also really keep the tradition. So, it's not only economic efficiency, but by having all these different centers, it allows to maintain many people employed and to also maintain the characteristics of each of those different lending sites. That's one example. I was in Korea last year and there, they were doing something similar. They are reviving some of their traditional fishing villages where they are also investing in those fishing communities and providing them with funding to set up, for example, restaurants that are run directly by those involved in the fishery. Those are particular places that are close to cities. In my case, I was in Busan. So, it's very closely connected to the consumers now that come out there. They are focusing on certain products in these villages that they are famous for traditionally. They have little shops and they're starting e-commerce for some of the products. So, the way they package, and the label has become much, much wider than before. So again, that has revived a bit those communities. In Italy, it's a country that's famous for its food, you know. And they are in the region that's called the Amalfi coast. There's a tiny village and it's famous for the production of a value-added product made from tiny sardines that are fished by the small-scale fisheries boats. And they are processed in a very particular way. And there is like a label of geographic origin of this product, and it can only come from that village. And it has a high price and has it's like a high-end product, so to say. And in a way these are also approaches that provide dignity to this profession. And a sense of pride which is really important and should not be underestimated in also increasing the willingness, for example, of young people to be part of that and maintain the viability of the sector.
John – I’d like to just add, I think that's a really important point on the dignity and pride and the importance of these fisheries in so many places and cultures. I mean, I'll never forget talking to a minister of finance in one country and starting to try to make the economic case for supporting small-scale fisheries. He cut me off in about 30 seconds and started talking about growing up fishing in the village and going back home for vacations, and just the importance to the entire community of fishing to him and just how much it was a part of the fabric of the culture.
Kerilyn - I love that. That does seem so important and wonderful to hear those very specific examples that do give some hope. It's not just a bleak future.
Norbert - You know, it's great to hear how government policy is helping shape and reshape these fisheries in a way that allow for economic viability and also these are opportunities to connect communities to these traditions. And so, I find that really fascinating. I want to kind of push a little bit beyond that and bring back the idea of how to deal with climate that was mentioned earlier. And also change our focus from government policy to sort of what's happening within these small-scale fisheries and fishery organizations. So Nicole, a lot of your work focuses on building more inclusive policy processes and stakeholder engagement. And so, from your perspective, how does community-led climate adaptation, rather than top down adaptation agendas, lead to different outcomes?
Nicole - Well, I think one way that seems quite obvious, how community-led adaptation can lead to different outcomes is simply that in that case, the traditional and the indigenous knowledge that is within those communities will be considered much more strongly. And this is something that can be really critical to crafting solutions for that very site-specific context. Because the impact of the climate change can be very different in every region and every locality not due to that specific environment that it's encountering there. And holding the knowledge and being able to observe the changes and then adapt to them is something that certainly a community-based approach has an advantage over something that would be a coming from a more centralized top down, a little bit more one-size-fits-all approach. And this can then imply little things like, for example, if the water temperature changes, we see a change in the fish behavior. Now we see how certain stocks start to move to different environments and others are coming in. So, the communities obviously need to adapt to that. And they do that automatically. Now, if it changes, they adapt their gear, they adapt to the new species that is there. So, in many cases, there are solutions that are already happening, and adaptations that are already happening that may not carry that label, that name. But if you look at it, it is really what is happening, no? Or you can see in some cases, that for example, there are initiatives that are coming also spontaneously from the communities to replant mangrove forests, where you can observe that there is a rising seawater level that is threatening the communities and where they have their houses, where they have their daily lives. Now, you can see that through NGOs and often there is support projects for that. But you can also see it happening more spontaneously when communities observe that change. So, the top-down approaches often they lack that more nuanced, site-specific considerations in their approaches and the consideration of that specific knowledge.
On the other hand, it needs to be said though, that the top-down approaches can also play an important role. For example, countries develop their national adaptation plans. And those plans are usually, you know, developed at a higher level, at the central level. And often fisheries and aquaculture are not necessarily included in those plans. So that is something where the top-down level can play a very important role and really make a difference for small-scale fisheries by ensuring that fisheries and aquaculture are included in a sector. So, I guess that in the end, as always, it's not black and white. No, it's something that we need to take into account both of it and have any climate change adaptation approach to small-scale fisheries being grounded in both. And have a way to bridge the top down and the bottom-up approaches.
Norbert - I really like this idea of bridging between the top down and the bottom-up approaches, understanding the local knowledge that's there. I would imagine that's also knowledge that when used to make decisions makes it easier for people to stick with those decisions, because it's a part of their voice. It's who they are. And then the other side, it's critical to make sure that those plans are a part of a larger national move, because if the government is not involved, if those higher-level decision makers are not involved, they can easily overlook the needs of those communities. I really appreciate hearing that. I think sometimes we hear this tension. It needs to be one or the other. And you're making a really compelling point about how it has to be integrated. John, I'm really intrigued to see from your perspective. How do you see this top down versus bottom-up approach working in the work you've done?
John - I'll do what I typically do is echo and agree with Nicole, but just to give an example that I love. I teach this one in my classes. There's an old paper by Bob Johannes, a marine ecologist. And the standard practice in managing fisheries as government scientists is you count the fish, you then set limits for them, often from the top down. And his point was in the case of Indonesia, if you look at the reef fisheries that go through most of the communities, one tool to assess the fish stocks is to do a visual census. You swim transects along the reefs and you count the fish. So, he did a back of the envelope estimate and he said, well, if you're going to do that through all the reefs throughout Indonesia, it would probably be finished in about 400 years. And that would give you one snapshot. So, he's saying you can't do this. You have to rely on the local knowledge in these communities. I don't want to romanticize traditional knowledge too much, but I just can't imagine how policies would effectively support adaptation in these communities without building upon this traditional ecological knowledge.
Kerilyn - John, since coming to Duke from the World Bank, you've regularly collaborated with non-academic partners like the FAO as well as the UN environmental program. Can you tell us more about how your partnership with the FAO and your work with Nicole more specifically began?
John - Sure. I think more than anything, I got really lucky. But when I first came to Duke, I started working with a colleague, Professor Xavier Basurto at the Marine Lab, who I think is one of the world's leading scholars on how communities come together to manage common resources like fish stocks. We organized a workshop at Duke on small-scale fisheries. We got talking to Nicole, invited her and some of her colleagues at FAO to that workshop, together with others, to think about a way forward for small-scale fisheries for philanthropy. And I think from those conversations started to see the need to build a global evidence base on how important these fisheries are in society. And Nicole could probably say it better, but from there, she and colleagues said, you know, maybe you all could work with us. We're planning to do this study to build this evidence base and maybe we could collaborate. And I think we're very fortunate that Duke gives the space for that kind of engaged research and allows us to do it. I don't think we knew how long it would be when we started, Nicole. But over five years and 800 researchers later, we - Javier, Nicole, myself, and so many others - concluded with this global study that we hope does have a little bit clearer picture on the role of these fisheries in society.
Kerilyn - Nicole, from your side, what does an academic partner bring to the table? What's your motivation for partnering with someone like John or Duke University more specifically.
Well, I think as FAO, we like to call ourselves a knowledge organization, but we're not an academic institution. We don't conduct research ourselves, no? So, we need to partner around that. We work with the policy makers though. So, one of our roles, in a way, is to build that. To broker and improve the science policy interface. So, this is why collaboration with academia research for us is very important. And what we experienced in this particular collaboration with Duke University to produce this study called Illuminating Hidden Harvest, the Contributions of Small-scale Fisheries to Sustainable Development was really that first we realized we have a shared vision, shared objectives. And I think that's fundamental. Now, you need to make sure that you have the same values, how you approach these things. And in this case, it aligned very well that we really wanted to take in a way, a human-centered and multidimensional approach to look at small-scale fisheries. And then it was also very important to understand what every partner brings to the table, no? The different strengths that we have. And then based on that, define the roles and what everybody's doing in a project. And the added value for us was certainly the capacity from the Duke University side to help develop the method that we develop for the country case studies that we conducted in 58 countries. And not only to develop that method, but then we had a postdoc at Duke University for this project, who was actually then engaging with all of the people. People in these 58 countries. And, and she was. coaching them in that methodology, actually in three languages, which was quite amazing. It was very, very thorough. We could not have done that. And we had a lot of other students from Duke University that helped us once we had the data gathered. To then screen that data, harmonize that data, clean that data, obviously under the leadership of John, Xavier and other colleagues, no? So that was really something that was adding a lot of value and actually also helped us to get to know a lot of the students from Duke. And some of those then ended up also becoming consultants working with us more broadly on small-scale fisheries. So that was certainly great, great value for FAO as collaboration.
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Nicole Franz, Equitable Livelihoods Team Leader, Fisheries and Aquaculture Division, Food and Agriculture Organization of the UN. Nicole is a development economist with 18 years of experience in intergovernmental organizations. She holds a Master in International Cooperation and Project Design from University La Sapienza, Rome and a Master in Economic and Cultural Cooperation and Human Rights in the Mediterranean Region. From 2003 to 2008 she was a consultant for the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations (FAO) and the International Fund for Agricultural Development (IFAD). In 2009-10 she was Fishery Planning Analyst at the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) in Paris, focusing on fisheries certification. Since 2011 she works for the FAO Fisheries and Aquaculture Division where she coordinates the implementation of the Voluntary Guidelines for Securing Sustainable Small-Scale Fisheries in the Context of Food Security and Poverty Eradication (SSF Guidelines) with a focus on inclusive policy processes and stakeholder empowerment. Since 2021 she leads the Equitable Livelihoods team.
John Virdin is director of the Oceans Program at the Duke University Nicholas Institute for Energy, Environment & Sustainability. He has a total of over twenty years’ experience in studying and advising government policies to regulate human use of the oceans, particularly marine conservation policies to reduce poverty throughout the tropics. His focus has been largely on managing fisheries for food and livelihoods, expanding to broader ocean-based economic development policies, coastal adaptation and more recently reducing ocean plastic pollution. He directs the Oceans Program at the Nicholas Institute for Energy, Environment & Sustainability, aiming to connect Duke University’s science and ideas to help policymakers solve ocean sustainability problems. He has collaborated in this effort with the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization and the United Nations Environment Program, as well as regional organizations such as the Abidjan Convention secretariat, the Organization of Eastern Caribbean States, the Sub-Regional Fisheries Commission of West Africa and the Parties to the Nauru Agreement for tuna fisheries management in the Western Pacific. He co-created and teaches an introductory course for undergraduate students to understand the role of ocean policy in helping solve many of society’s most pressing development challenges on land. His work has been published in books, edited volumes and a number of professional journals, including Nature Ecology and Evolution, Ecosystem Services, Environment International, Fish and Fisheries and Marine Policy, as well as contributing to China Dialogue, The Conversation, the Economist Intelligence Unit, and The Hill.
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With food insecurity rising the world over, we cannot escape the reality that climate change is changing our food supply. This means people's livelihoods and lifestyles are changing too, particularly in developing countries. Join us on the Leading Voices in Food podcast as we discuss the rising impact of climate change on food security and livelihoods in Central America, specifically Honduras. Host Norbert Wilson, Director of the World Food Policy Center, along with co-host Sarah Bermeo, delve into the challenges and solutions with experts Marie-Soleil Turmel from Catholic Relief Services and Ana Andino from Duke University. Learn about the Dry Corridor, the effects of climate shocks, land restoration practices, and the role of international support in building community resilience.
Interview Summary
Sarah - Marie, some of your work with Catholic Relief Services engages with smallholder farmers in an area known as the Dry Corridor of Central America. Can you explain what the Dry Corridor is and provide some context about the food security situation in that area, and how much do residents depend on their own crops to provide food for their families?
Marie - So, the Dry Corridor of Central America refers to a region that stretches across the Pacific side of Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, and Nicaragua. The region has a long dry season and a rainy season when the crops are produced. In the last 10 years, this region has been characterized as one of the most vulnerable to climate change. Mainly due to prolonged dry spells in the growing season and more unpredictable rainfall patterns. This region is made up of many small holder farmers in the rural population. These are small hillside farms growing staple crops, maize or corn, and beans with relatively low yields. And most of the household consumption is coming from these farms, and they're selling any surplus that is produced in a good year. These are rain-fed production systems. So, the amount of food that the farms produced is directly tied to the amount of rainfall, making them extremely vulnerable to droughts and climate shocks. And also the region has a very high degree of soil degradation. It's estimated 70 percent of agricultural soil is in a state of severe degradation. This makes farms even more susceptible to climate shocks. So, this is a region that's already struggling with poverty. Close to 8 million people are living in a situation of food insecurity. And now with increasing climate shocks that are affecting crop yields, it's sending more people into a situation of food emergency and requiring food aid.
Norbert - Thank you, Marie, for providing that context. Ana, let's now turn to you. I understand that you've worked with the Honduran Ministry of Finance and the Inter American Development Bank on issues relating to economic development in Honduras. What do you view as some of the key development challenges facing the country?
Ana - So Honduras faces several challenges which have been dragged out for many years. And now some of them have even worsened, particularly since 2020 when we were hit by the pandemic and the storms Eta and Iota. It's tough to pinpoint just one or a few of them since it's a convergence of complex scenarios, but if I had to mention one - and going along with the conversation we're having today - I would mention intersection between climate change and economic vulnerability. As we heard Marie talking about the Dry Corridor, there are many rural communities that rely heavily on agriculture. But climate variability has made it even more difficult to maintain stable food production, affecting income and food insecurity. So, by mid-2023, about 25 percent of the population was suffering from food insecurity. Nationally, agriculture provides employment for approximately 30 percent of the country's workforce. And there's verification agriculture is also limited, which, this dependency constrains sustainable growth and resilience. Also, I cannot leave behind the access to basic services such as water and electricity. Of course, I'll include in this education, right? It is important, and it's not only a matter of access to them, but also the quality of their services.
Many households lack access to clean water. This impacts their daily life, but also their agricultural productivity. And even in the main cities, there is an inconsistent access to water and electricity, which affects livelihoods, but also small businesses to larger industries. Education is a no-brainer, since both access and quality remain a serious challenge. In this list, I would also like to add crime and violence, which remain high. And even though there has been an improvement in the last years, particularly reducing homicide rates, it still remains as one of the highest in Latin America. The situation is even worse when we look at femicide. Because Honduras is still one of the highest or has one of the highest rates of femicide in the region. That often goes along with high levels of impunity. And finally, we're almost getting there to my list of challenges, I would say that there is a lack of infrastructure, particularly in rural areas.
There is no reliable access to roads or markets, which affects a lot of smallholder farmers. This also affects connectivity for roads. It limits access to health care and education. And these all are challenges that compound together. And yeah, to finally wrap it up, it's that without institutions that can effectively implement policies and manage resources, it'll be hard to, to have development efforts and to see growth in the country.
Norbert - This sounds like a daunting set of challenges. And I realized that obviously in this conversation and the work that's going to happen later this week, we're not able to address all of those. But I would like to pull back and ask you both about issues around climate. And so, for the both of you, I'd be intrigued to understand this. Central America is believed to be highly susceptible to climate change, and Marie, you've already mentioned this. What are some of the key effects that climate change is having on the region? And I've heard you already talk about issues around availability of water. But how do these affect the livelihoods and particularly, how does this affect food security? So, Ana, let's begin with you.
Ana – So, as Marie mentioned, there are a lot of extreme weather events going around, such as prolonged droughts, intense rainfall, tropical storms. And these weather patterns have a direct and severe impact on agricultural productivity. Especially in regions where families rely a lot on subsistence farming. It becomes a challenge to plant, to harvest crops. This leads to a reduction in yields. Also, people have less income, referring to income losses, which in the end has a cascading effect on food insecurity and poverty. So basically, what happens is that families have less to sell, but also have less to eat.
If we transition to urban areas, climate change could cause floodings and damage to infrastructure, affecting severely industrial activity as well. This will disrupt the livelihoods of the people. In urban and rural areas, it exacerbates difficulties in accessing food, in accessing clean water, in accessing electricity. And just to give you an example, this happened back in 2020, right after Eta and Iota. We had long lasting effects, causing damage to agriculture, to livestock, to infrastructure. The effect on GDP was approximately eight to nine percent of GDP. And unsurprisingly, poverty rose 14 percentage points, which is a big increase. If you see national surveys going around, they have shown that people are having issues with getting access to food. And many people have also had to change their diet, leaving behind some proteins and introducing more carbohydrates or, or foods that are less expensive than proteins, right? And I would leave it there. Yeah.
Norbert - This is really important. Thank you for sharing that. Marie, what about you?
Marie - Ana really summed it up well, but I would add that it's really important to understand that that these farmers don't have crop insurance to fall back on like farmers in the U.S. So, we're seeing more frequent climate shocks, sometimes years in a row. Droughts and hurricanes. And farmers might be able to borrow seed or money, or to buy inputs to replant the next year, but after consecutive bad harvests, they run out of options and resources and really can't recover. And also keeping in mind that about 60 percent of the food in the region is coming from smallholder farms. And these climate shocks resulting in yield damage have implications for food prices and food security at the regional level, not just at the farm level, right?
Sarah - So, Ana and Marie, you do a very nice job laying out the multiple challenges that are facing in urban areas. Turning from that to thinking about adaptations or policy changes that could be successful, can you think of some that might help in decreasing the negative impacts of climate change on farmers, particularly in the Dry Corridor? And, have you seen evidence? Can you bring evidence from your previous work for this to think about pathways forward and whether or not those would be scalable to additional farmers.
Marie - So, a focus on land restoration and soil restoration is really key to building climate resilience. As I mentioned, these are areas with really highly degraded soils that are even more susceptible to these climate shocks. So, we're talking about managing the soil to manage water. And I just want to take a moment to explain why soil is so important for climate resilience. A healthy soil will capture and infiltrate more rainwater. These are rain fed systems, depending on every drop that falls. They store more water for plant production and also percolate more water down to recharge groundwater, which has an implication for water availability in the whole area.
In a degraded soil, like much of the agricultural land in the Dry Corridor and other parts of the world, soils have lost this function, and the rainwater runs off, it's not captured, it's not stored, and the resulting, the crops grown in that soil are much more susceptible to periods without rain, and there's overall less water availability. When soil and water resources are degraded, agricultural productivity is low, the families are susceptible to climate shocks, and this keeps them in a cycle of emergency and recovery and poverty. The good news is that the ability of soils to capture and store rainwater can be restored with good agricultural practices that build soil organic matter, protect, and protect the soils from erosion.
In Catholic Relief Services and in our programs, we call this Water Smart Agriculture Practices. In one of our programs from 2016 to 2020, we monitored a network of farms where we tested these practices with farmers on their farms and side by side plots comparing the water smart agriculture practices with conventional practices. Within that period, a very severe drought in 2018 hit. It affected the whole region and we found that these soils during a very severe drought could store up to 26 percent more moisture during this drought period. And on average yields were 39 percent higher. In a drought year, this can make the difference between a family producing enough food to still meet their household needs or being in an emergency situation and having to rely on food aid. And also, we found it in good years, yields were also much higher because of these good management practices. Meaning that farmers could produce and sell more surplus and improve their income savings. And this also contributes to greater overall resilience. And just to note also that these practices also sequester more carbon in agricultural systems, which also has climate mitigation impacts.
Now this alone, soil management alone, is not going to bring farmers out of poverty. We need to build on this foundation of good natural resource management with market access, diversification with more lucrative crops access to financing and, of course, increasing opportunities for women and youth. But all this needs to be built on this foundation of restoring soil and water resources so that we can be successful with these other types of development interventions. We're working to scale these practices in the Dry Corridor by working with a network of partners, including other local NGOs, government agencies. And one of the main limitations is that farmers have is gaining access to any type of agricultural extension services. So, we're really working to strengthen local extension. We're using a hybrid model that combines field training with digital extension tools and radio for mass communication to reach more people. And we know from some of our work and some of the work I'm doing with Sarah and Ana to look at the adoption of these practices, that when farmers do have access to extension services and training, they are in fact applying and adopting the practices.
Sarah - Thank you, Marie, for providing the detail about some of the programs that you're seeing and that the evidence, these are evidence-based practices that are actually making a difference for the farmers that you are working with. I want to turn to Ana now and shift the conversation just a little bit. You know, Marie was laying out potential ways to turn things around and ways that life could become better for farmers. But what do you see as some of the consequences of inaction if we don't keep on with these programs and if programs are not scaled up to help smallholder farmers and others in the region. What do you think will be the consequences of that for poverty and food security in Central America?
Ana - Sarah, that's a great question. Again, it's hard to give an exact answer on what would be the exact results of this. But there was this one thing that popped into my mind immediately, which is an accelerated flow of people migrating both within the region and towards the U.S. as well. Because people are seeking to escape these harsh living conditions, right? So, food insecurity will get worse, particularly in susceptible areas like the Dry Corridor where farmers are already struggling with this climate unpredictability. Rural families will also face greater challenges in meeting their basic nutritional needs. potentially leading to malnutrition and health crises. And even in urban areas, high prices and food shortage will disproportionately impact the most vulnerable communities, exacerbating inequality. Now, in addition to that, failing to act now will result in a greater cost in the future. And I believe another concerning consequence of inaction is the displacement of young people. And here I must add that right now Honduras has a demographic difference and we're not taking advantage of it. Many young individuals migrate in search of better opportunities, leading to the so-called brain drain. Or they even leave the country without any further motivation to help the country while they’re abroad. So, with insufficient opportunities for education, for employment, we are risking youth becoming trapped in cycles of poverty. We're losing people that are capable of helping the country, and this will undermine long term community development and stability.
Norbert - Ana, thanks so much for providing that context for the need for action and what consequences of inaction might be. You know, this has been a challenging conversation. We've talked about a number of things that are going wrong or where some of the challenges are. I actually want to turn the conversation to see some ways forward. And so, what are some of the positive changes that can take place? And, you know, Catholic Relief Services is doing some really important work. And I want to hear more about that. But I also want to hear about it in the context of what could happen if policy makers, government officials or decision makers in the international development institutions, if they changed policy or created new opportunities. What would you say are still some really pressing needs and where would you focus money and efforts to get the biggest impact or hope for the most people? Marie? Let's start with you.
Marie - I want to emphasize again just the importance of investing in land and soil restoration as a foundation, as a strategy to build climate resilience. Now, we really need programs that are also creating economic opportunities and developing markets for farmers, but this needs to be linked with land restoration initiatives in order to ensure resilience and the sustainability of these activities. You know, when land and soil is restored, these practices aren't just implemented, and they're not just implemented at the farm level, but like over whole landscapes. This improves productivity, but also water availability for households, urban areas, and other activities. So even programs that promote irrigation technologies as a solution for the Dry Corridor, which is really like a way forward also. These need to be linked with the land restoration activities because this water needs to come from somewhere. So, we need to ensure that we're protecting our water resources and ensuring the availability for these other activities, or else we won't be successful. And they also won't be sustainable.
We also really need to invest more in capacity-building aspects of our development programming. Not just focusing on asset replacement, which is necessary, but we need a good balance of investing in capacity building. This means farmers, agronomists, agricultural institutes to strengthen the extension systems and improving access to information around soil and climate, for improved decision making and management of these resources in order to also take action to reduce overall risk and climate risk in the area. So really building the capacity in the management practices that can in the long term reduce dependencies on external aid.
Norbert - Ana, what about you?
Ana- I think Marie summed up everything very well. But if I had to rephrase what she said in my own words, I would focus a lot on infrastructure development. Both physical and digital. This is essential. Investing in better roads, market access, but also digital connectivity would enable the population of farmers and entrepreneurs to reach bigger markets, fostering economic growth and development. And I'll also include improvements to infrastructure to be climate resilient and friendly to the environment. And going along to what she said about capacity development, I would also give focus on improving productive skills. Many companies in the region and especially in Honduras highlight the limited ability of the workforce to generate high value opportunities as a major constraint. So, concrete advances in competitiveness and innovation are needed in this sense. And I would wrap this wish list saying that for any policy to be considered if you want to talk to them to any government official or international organization, there has to be more focus and importance on inclusive policies. They have to engage local communities, they have to engage women, they have to engage youth in decision making processes. Basically, we want to ensure that these groups have voice in policy development.
Sarah - Great. Thanks Ana. I want to, you know, turn this attention now to thinking about research. So, Duke is an institution where research is one of our primary functions. And thinking broadly about the impacts of climate change on agriculture and food security, where do you see the biggest need for additional research? And maybe to think about in another way which research questions if they were answered could be transformative? And how might academic research and researchers partner with organizations like Catholic Relief Services and others doing work in the field in order to answer some of these questions about practical applications that could help on the ground? And Ana, let's begin with you.
Ana - Thank you for your question, Sarah. I would say our work with Catholic Relief Services has given us a lot of ideas on how we can improve in this sense. For instance, we need to understand how different technologies and practices performed in diverse kinds of conditions are crucial. What factors influence farmers’ adoption of one technology more than another, considering the heterogeneity of each farmer and each living condition. But I would also be interested in exploring how climate change impacts household dynamics and whether there is a shift in roles. Men and women, right? If there is an increase in women empowerment within the agricultural context once they're exposed to these new technologies. How they make the decision on what to eat, how much to eat, what to produce, what not to produce. And I would say also, and this is my Santa wish list of the things I want to research about as well is understanding their desire to migrate even under these improved conditions. Like even though we're giving them this technology, it's like what is actually keeping these farmers that we are helping stay and keep doing or producing what they're doing in involving improving with time.
Sarah - Marie, what about you?
Marie - Yes, so from the development organization perspective, collaborations with academic institutes can really provide an opportunity for us to go beyond the scope of the kind of monitoring and learning that we build into our development projects. And bring in different levels of expertise, and research methods. So definitely something that can be beneficial for our programming. I see two main areas that require more research and where, you know, collaborating with academic organizations or institutes could be, could be a benefit. The first is really around the whole biophysical type research on agricultural systems. Practices to accelerate land restoration, drought tolerant crops and varieties to improve resilience to climate and market shocks. And calibrating and applying different tools for decision making around soils and water resources. And then the other area is really research in development. So, what's the effectiveness of our different delivery methods of our programs, our extension models, and strategies for reaching and including women and youth. Understanding the scaling strategy and how we can reach more farmers. And also, translating these results and program impacts into policy recommendations. So really, research that informs our development strategy to ensure that programs are really leading to transformative, sustainable change and improvements in livelihoods and food security and resilience.
Norbert - I really do appreciate hearing this. As a researcher, it's, it's so easy to get, sort of, how do I get the next paper in a journal. But what you're talking about are research questions that really move the development efforts forward. That are, sort of, informed by what's happening on the ground to make sure that the work that you all are doing is the work that leads to the best outcomes for the largest number of people.
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Marie-Soleil Turmel is the Scientific Advisor for the Catholic Relief Services Water Smart Agriculture Platform in the Latin America and Caribbean Region. She is an Agronomist/Soil Scientist with 15 years of experience conducting research and extension to promote soil health, productivity, and climate resilience of smallholder farming systems in Latin America. Before joining CRS, she worked as a Research Scientist for the International Maize and Wheat Improvement Center (CIMMYT) and Bioversity International. Marie holds a Ph.D. in Soil Science from McGill University and an M.Sc. in Agronomy from the University of Manitoba.
Ana Andino is a PhD student in Public Policy with a concentration in Economics at Duke University’s Sanford School of Public Policy. Prior to joining Duke, Ana worked on development issues in Honduras with the Inter-American Development Bank and Honduran Ministry of Finance. She is now an integral part of the Duke team collaborating with Catholic Relief Services. Her research interests are in political economy, climate migration, food insecurity, and international development. She holds a Master of Science in local economic development from the London School of Economics.
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I’m Norbert Wilson, a professor of public policy at Duke university and director of the world food policy center. Now, I am an agricultural economist by training and today’s podcast, we will explore a creative and down-to-earth book titled Food Economics. Now stay with me, gentle listener. I already can sense the wave of anxiety, math anxiety, and discomfort with economics. but hear me out. To make the food system work for everyone, we must understand the economics of food, agricultural production, business decisions, consumer behavior, and of course, government policies. Tufts University Professor, economist William Masters, and Allegheny College economist and nutritionist Amelia Finaret, developed a wonderfully engaging textbook that is friendly for readers and learners who do not love math or who have a complicated relationship with economics.
Interview SummarySo let’s start at the very beginning. Why did you write this book?
Will: Well, I’ll start. I love the subject. And I love the opportunity to work with Amelia on something. And we talked about taking the course that she was a Teaching Assistant for and making it into a textbook. And finally being able to do it has been revelatory. I’ve learned a lot, learned a lot from Amelia, learned a lot from the process of writing. The motivation really is because the topic is so compelling. As you said, food economics is crucial to whether people can afford to and do have the material requisites of wellbeing, as the original definition of economics put it. And so, food is this really distinctive, strange thing that’s, as I say, often hidden in plain sight. It’s something that many economists want to teach about, but don’t really know much about. And many people who work in food without economics would like to use some economics. So, putting the two together has been definitely a situation where two plus two is more than four. Putting the two together is something new and different.
Amelia: I think also that food is a very special type of good. And so, when we’re talking about economics we talk a lot about goods and services. And food is a special type of good in that you have to have it to live. And we also really found during the process of writing the book, as Will talked about, more and more examples that many of the fundamental lessons of economics can be learned with examples from the food system. So, we think that using a topic like food, which really resonates with a lot of our students, is a great way to teach econ and it can get them more excited than learning about widgets.
I am really intrigued by this, and I want to pick up on this idea that food is special and that is something I think is a critical part of what you all are doing. But I also heard something new in this idea of using food as a pathway into economics. So, as you know, folks react really strongly to economics because of math or a disdain for capitalism or other issues. Why do you want people to understand the economics of food?
Amelia: So food is something that all of us make choices about multiple times a day. And there’s very few other things, maybe about our time management overall, that we make choices about so frequently. But food is one of those things that we make choices about multiple times every day, all of us. And that’s whether it’s about producing the food, doing something else to the food or consuming the food. And economics fundamentally is about understanding and analyzing those choices and those behaviors. So, people, of course, are going to be confused sometimes about how to make those choices. And that’s one of the biggest and most important discussions in public health: how do we encourage folks to make better food choices? People are also just very confused because there’s so much different information floating around. So, what we wanted to do is to provide an economics perspective of food choice because economics is really great at analyzing choices. And this, of course, helps people connect what’s something that’s personal to them, which is making those kind of frequent food decisions. Even if they’re not thinking about it, they really are thinking like an economist frequently about food multiple times every day. And then connecting it to this discipline of economics to understand the formal logic of how we analyze those choices.
Will: And I would add the opportunity that we’ve had in teaching economics to people who didn’t like economics, chose not to do it, and wanted to do public health nutrition instead. For me, at Tufts in the Friedman School, and also with students from agriculture – I taught previously at Purdue students who didn’t like economics because they wanted to work in agriculture – I really want to demystify a lot of what became a kind of high jargon of fancy language. For example, in economics, people would speak of an individual “optimizing.” And we just don’t say that. Instead what we say is people are doing the best they can with what they have, and often it’s the least bad of their options. Similarly, economists talk about an equilibrium, but it’s not a “nice” thing. It’s just a prediction of a model of an explanation. So, much of our task here, I think, is to demystify economics for students, but also to help economists find a better language because economists use that off putting technical jargon way too much to talk to each other. And that really harms our ability to communicate with people who, as you said, might have a disdain for the outcome, for example. They don’t like the way capitalism is turning out and they want the vocabulary to change it. And we hope the book can provide that.
I really appreciate this. Picking up particularly on Amelia’s comment, I remember as a student at the University of Georgia, I had an amazing intro to agricultural economics teacher. His name is Joseph Broder. And he got me excited about this idea of how people make choices. And we were talking about it in the food and Ag space, and I just started to see that happen everywhere. I realized that this was a powerful tool to help me understand the choices that people were making and the choices that maybe they wanted to make but couldn’t because they were facing different constraints. So, I really appreciate this effort of what you all are trying to do in this text. That raises the question of who do you really want to read this text? I mean, who was your target audience and why those individuals?
Will: So, the number one audience is instructors, to make it easy for them to teach this material. Someone who comes from economics, works on some other topic, can teach a course in food economics just by picking up the book. A student who is assigned the book can get an explanation that is perhaps richer in detail with more examples. And then we also provide a lot of data analysis in the book that a student can read on their own. But I honestly believe that quite a few general readers can find it attractive to just pick it up and flip through it. When I wanted to learn about general nutrition, just vitamins, minerals, reading a nutrition textbook was actually great. And I hope that this textbook is something that people can just pick up and flip through. You can, because it’s open access, you can just search for a word in the book, and you can flip around and see what catches your eye. And I hope people find that experience interesting and enlightening and useful.
Amelia: And I think the book could be used by students, undergraduate and graduate students, and their instructors for all different kinds of courses that intersect with the food system. So, not just straight up economics courses, but also courses on the food system, maybe even on sustainable agriculture, on public health nutrition. And I think that, you know, for those courses, certain chapters could be selected and used in a course. So, we hope that people can use it really as flexibly as they want. Yeah, and then we also think that for economists who never learned about the food system, that it might benefit them as well, because we really do give a complete picture of what the food system is, what it looks like with all kinds of data. And they maybe haven’t thought about, you know, economists know econ, of course, but they maybe haven’t thought about the food system and how it’s kind of a unique sector. And this I think would help them really to formalize that for themselves too.
This is helpful. I’m going to bring up a different group of people who I think could be interested in this text. How do you see someone going into a department or ministry of agriculture or food or development agency, seeing policy differently based on the work of this text?
Amelia: In terms of the policy aspects of the book, the material in each chapter can intersect with different types of food policies. So, for anyone who works at a ministry of health or a ministry of agriculture who’s developing food policy, they might use the book to see, “okay, well, what am I going to be able to tell qualitatively? What will happen if this policy is implemented?” Of course, if they want to understand something about quantitative change, they would need to gather data and do some statistics and econometrics. But if they want to make a sketch of “okay, well, if I implement this policy, here’s what I can expect qualitatively to happen to prices and quantities and imports and exports.” They can definitely do that using the material from this book. I think that it might also help because it spans everything from production to consumption and health, it will allow policymakers to really see those connections between those aspects of the food system. So not just consumers, and not even just consumers and farmers, but also thinking about input markets and food manufacturing and processing, as well as retail. I think that it gives that kind of that whole picture of the food system, which could be really helpful to those policy makers.
Will: Another aspect of ‘whole picture’ thinking that we tried to instill in the second half of the book is just showing a lot of data. And in particular, zooming way out so that we show all of the data. We believe, I think with pretty good evidence, that when people choose a case study, choose a narrative, choose an example, there’s a lot of selection effect there. And when you zoom way out, as we do in the second half of the book to show scatter plots and line graphs, I think policy makers will see whatever decision they’re making in that quantitative context. They’ll get the qualitative insight that Amelia just described, plus the overall context. And that will really guide decisions, we hope, towards a more mindful and well-informed kinds of choices.
Now, that’s I think really powerful. And there’s something else that’s unique about this text is, you mention it, it’s open access. And so that’s really different for a textbook. And because it’s open access, that means it’s free for everyone. So as an economist, I have to ask, what does that mean? How do you make it free for everyone? So why did you choose that approach? And then this book also does something else a little differently. It doesn’t use extensive citations or footnotes and references. What was your thinking in that approach?
Will: Great question. I’ll talk about the open access and Amelia can talk about the structure and the tone, the voice. Open access was an opportunity that the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation provided because of their support for the Agriculture Nutrition Health Academy that I’ve been privileged to be a founder of, to create a community of researchers. The Gates Foundation does support open access fees that are quite high. For this book, it’s $20,000, but the grant was willing to pay that. The total royalties that Amelia and I might’ve earned is very small compared to the effort in writing the book. And so, we really wanted to take advantage of that grant to have people be able to just click on the link and read the book. It takes all the delay and the challenge and the difficulty our and makes access seamless as well as free. So, it’s not just low cost, but also low time transaction difficulty. You can put it on any device and refresh. You know pick it up on your phone, pick it up on any laptop at any time. And that makes a big difference, we hope.
Amelia: Yes, the lower the barriers are for students to read the better for sure. And in terms of the structure of the book and having kind of the sprinkling of sources within the narrative text, what we really wanted was to create kind of a just a seamless narrative. So, we didn’t want readers to have to flip to the end to see about where the sources were. But we kind of describe key thinkers, key economists, and also experts in other fields whose work has really influenced economics within the narrative text. And so, we feel that this kind of helps it flow better. And we also put all the data citations right next to the figure so that you can click out to that source and see the data yourself when the data are updated. You know, students and readers could make their own charts with that same data. So, for the data visualizations, all the citations are right there, ready to go. And then for anything else that you might include normally as a reference, it’s all woven into the narrative. We also have a handbook chapter that has more than 300 citations for the health side of the literature. So people can use that if they want a guide to published papers that are individual studies.
Great. This sounds like a wonderful opportunity and really a unique way of contributing to both the educational component, but also sort of this idea of outreach of what university professors do. So it sounds almost like more of a public service than I would think we would normally look at a textbook. I gotta ask this question, because you start and you end with a poem about kiwis. Not the small animal or the people from New Zealand, but little furry fruit. So why do you do this? What are you trying to tell us through this poem?
Amelia: I mean, I think first is just to demonstrate that economics can be really fun. And also that the food system can be kind of confusing. Right? And that’s right in the title of the poem. Why are kiwis so cheap? This was Will’s poem. I’m going to let him talk about other reasons why you wanted to put it at the beginning and then at the end.
Will: Yeah, the question came from a journalist asking why are Kiwis so cheap because they come from the other side of the world, right? And when I first got the question, I thought it was a kind of a silly question. And I didn’t want to answer pedantically. And I had just written a sort of doggerel poem for my brother’s birthday. I had like doggerel poetry on the brain and I was thought – I could just write a fun little poem. So, there you go.
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When you hear university dining, you likely have images in your mind of college students with trays and hand waiting in a line for a meal in a dining hall. You may even think of a food court or a trendy food hall in the cool part of town. But there is so much more happening behind the scenes. Today we will learn about Menus of Change University Research Collaborative, MCURC for short, which is a nationwide network of colleges and universities using campus dining halls as living laboratories for behavior change. The Collaborative's goals are to move people towards healthier, more sustainable and delicious foods using evidence-based research, education and innovation. Our guest today is the Collaborative's co-founder and co-director, Stanford University's Sophie Egan.
Interview Summary
I'd like you to tell our listeners a little bit more about the Menus of Change University Research Collaborative. What is it and how does it actually work?
The Menus of Change University Research Collaborative was co-founded by the Culinary Institute of America and Stanford University, two divisions there, the Stanford Prevention Research Center and the School of Medicine, and Residential and Dining Enterprises. And that should tell you something is different in our vision, which is that first and foremost, we wanted to break down silos that exist on campuses between experts in food who work in academic realms. So, researchers, faculty who may be studying food, either from one certain discipline or ideally some cases transdisciplinarily, and those who actually feed students, the experts in the dining programs on campus. And Stanford was a good place to co-found this because of this great partnership that already existed between the dining program and between Dr. Christopher Gardner at the School of Medicine. But that model has actually now been replicated. We are at 70 plus institutions, not only across the U.S., but actually increasingly internationally.
In addition to fostering that collaboration and breaking down those silos on a given campus, we really wanted to foster collaboration between universities to take what we consider kind of a plug-and-play research protocol. You know, a given design of a study that, as you said, uses campus dining halls as living laboratories and actually replicate research. So that's what we've done. It's been incredibly fun to be part of it from the beginning, and it's been incredibly exciting and impactful because of the approach that we take. We really democratize even what it means to be a researcher, to be involved in research. We have involvement in the collaborative and in research projects from students, faculty, of course, who are critical in their expertise, but also executive chefs, nutrition and sustainability experts. And many other research collaborators who are mission aligned organizations like EAT and REFED and Food for Climate League, who bring their own kind of comparable expertise. And we all work together to shape these living lab studies and then to test those at multiple sites to see if this a more generalizable effect? Or is that something just those west coast schools work for? Or is this only something that, you know, more elite schools where students of a certain demographic really respond?
But that's also the beauty is the diversity of the institutions that we have. Geographically, public private, small and large. And we're really brought together by the kind of common language of what's also in our name, Menus of Change. And these are these principles of optimizing both human and planetary health through the food on our plates.
And for us really, especially through students, changing that trajectory and cultivating the long term wellbeing of all people in the planet, one student, one meal at a time.
Wow. This sounds like a really amazing program. And I love the fact that you're working across different types of universities across the U.S. and even outside. And it does make me believe that the findings that you have are applicable in a broader setting than if one institution does it. I can appreciate the power of the Collaborative. I want to know a little bit more about the impact of the collaborative. What has it been up to this point and in what ways have you seen this collaborative generate new ideas or new research findings?
Yes. So, we've got about six peer reviewed publications under our belt with more on the way. Our latest is called the University Procurement and Planetary Health Study led by Dr. Jackie Bertoldo, who was at the Johns Hopkins University and also Stanford Food Institute. But we have a number of academic publications also in the works. And then importantly, we actually have produced 13 operational publications and reports. So, what that illustrates is that we've come to realize that those that are collaborating have different currencies. Publishing in a peer reviewed journal, that's what motivates academic researchers, right? That's what's going to enable them to invest time and resources. Fundamentally, this is primarily something that people do, in their free time, right? It's a volunteer-based network of over 300 members. But if they're going to work on a project, it has to have some value to their own work. But what has value to those in dining operations is implementable, real, tangible strategies, recommendations, and guidelines that translate 'these are the findings of a certain study into what do you want me to do about it? How do you want me to change my menu, sourcing, the design of the dining hall, the choice architecture, right? The food environment itself. How do you want me to change something in the operational setup?' Maybe, if it has to do with food waste. All of these resources are on our website. We also have three really exciting new projects in the pipeline.
So that's our research and publication impact to date. But I should say that importantly, it's much more meaningful to us who take those resources and acts upon them. We know that universities are unique places to conduct research, but our research is not aimed only at the campus dining sector. It's actually offered open source to inform and shape the entire food service industry. We have been thrilled, for example, one of our kind of flagship publications called the Edgy Veggies Toolkit has been implemented and adopted by some of the largest food service companies in the world. Think of Sodexo, Aramark, Compass, who are phenomenal members of the collaborative. Think of corporate dining programs, hospitals, hotels, elsewhere. K 12 environments. And that's, to us, the most important kind of reach is to know that those toolkits, those resources.
Edgy Veggies was about how you could simply change the way you describe vegetable-based dishes on a menu, to use more taste focused language, to increase the appeal. We actually demonstrated you can measurably increase selection and consumption of vegetables. So, you can imagine that has applications in public health in countless settings. Even those of us trying to feed our kids. Hey, if I call tonight's broccoli, you know, zesty orange broccoli versus just broccoli, maybe my kid will eat more of it, right? So, it has applications in countless different contexts.
Another really big area for us is our collective purchasing power. So, we learned at some point that it's not only that these organizations, the institutions that are part of the collaborative are brought together by a desire to co create research, but it's really that alignment on healthy, sustainable, plant forward future for the food service industry. And so we've actually created this collective impact initiative where it's our combined purchasing power. We've now measurably reduced our combined food-related greenhouse gas emissions. By 24 percent just between 2019 and 2022, and that's across 30 institutions, 90 million pounds of food. I mean, this is a huge outcome for us, and we're not stopping there. We had a goal to reduce by 25 percent by 2030, and now reaching that, we're A, enhancing the target to a 40 percent reduction by 2030. But importantly, we're actually measuring now the uptick in diet quality. So, because human health is equally important to that sustainability part, that University Procurement for Planetary Health study that I mentioned, we're actually able to see that if we are aligning our procurement, meaning what do we buy in the total pounds of an institution and then in the aggregate, right? How plant forward, how healthy and sustainable is that kind of portfolio, that total mix of foods that we're purchasing? And we can actually really increase the diet quality and that kind of average health profile at the same time. So, getting that data layer is really key. And it's the kind of area of impact that has so much momentum and will only continue into the future.
Also, lastly, just to say our student engagement numbers have really grown, and that's critically important because educating and cultivating the next generation of food systems leaders. is also core to our work. We have our MCRC Fellows program and that has really grown to have about 30 fellows from a number of institutions all around the country. That's another great way that anyone interested can get involved in. Students are a reason for being. So, it's key that they see these ways to make an impact through their work as well.
I am really impressed with the improvements in lowering greenhouse gas emissions or improving sustainability of the dining facilities. How actually did you all do that? I mean, it sounds like you're asking people to report and through that reporting, you see reduction? Can you explain?
Coming soon is our 2.0 learnings report that will answer that exact question, but we do have a 2020 version. We call it the early learnings report that shares what it sounds, you know, the early learnings of what works, what doesn't. But what I can tell you can have been kind of the big keys to that success. First, collective target setting. We have been able to welcome institutions that really don't necessarily have the political support, the kind of stakeholder buy in, to make a big public commitment. Some schools do, some institutions do, and that's great. And others, they can sort of take cover, so to speak, in contributing to something where, you know. Their pace of change may be different. And so, it's really kind of contributing to something larger than only their institution, but also having the comfort that it's going to be fits and starts. It may not be linear. It may not be all forward. It might be a little bit backward in terms of the progress trajectory. So that's been really key to having a real diversity of schools where it's not only those that are at the very leading edge. And it's in again, places that aren't as comfortable coming out with a big splashy public wedge.
The other big thing that's been key is that we have created a very streamlined framework for data collection. Instead of kind of saying you must submit your data for every single item you've ever purchased, we've on a smaller subset of food categories, where it's easier for them to track, we've created a streamlined and standardized template for them to submit the data, and we also provide individualized reports back to that university. It's confidential. They are the only one who gets it. And that's very motivating because a lot of institutions don't have that resource or that expertise to conduct that analysis to track their emissions year over year. It's almost like getting kind of a free consultancy. But it's what creates that reciprocity where we need their data. We need their collective contribution to the collective effort. And they're getting something out of it because they do have to take the time to find the data and to submit it to us. And then the other thing I think has really been key is, and this was kind of the core concept of collective impact, is continuously iterating. Every year we're listening to those involved in tweaking, you know, how we're asking for the data, how frequently we used to ask for it twice a year, and now it's annually, for example. So always kind of iterating, testing and iterating to make the processes mutually beneficial as possible. And then also keeping the door open for those other institutions to join. It's kind of a cohort effect where we have some institutions that have been part of it from the beginning and others that have only been submitting data for a year and everyone is playing a role.
Great. Thank you for sharing that. I want to ask you a little bit more about your other work that you're doing because you're the co-director of the collaborative. You're also the co-director of the Stanford Food Institute. Can you tell our listeners more about that institute and what you're working on there?
The Stanford Food Institute was founded by our visionary leader, Dr. Shirley Everett, who's Senior Vice Provost for Residential Dining Enterprises at Stanford. And she really had this vision to bring together an entire community of people to shape a better future of food for the benefit of all humanity and, and really embracing how much food is happening on the Stanford campus. To have the Stanford Food Institute be really this hub and this home for what belovedly we say at Stanford, it's a very decentralized place. There's a ton of entrepreneurial spirit and that's fantastic and should be, but often we don't know what everyone else is doing. So, it's a great opportunity for the Stanford Food Institute to be that magnet and say, come one, come all, whatever student led group, research project, course, event, you know, we want to work with you.
So, in practice, what we really do is we work across research, education and innovation to bring together that community and work on this better future. We have a really strong focus on racial equity in the food system, as well as bold climate action. Those are kind of some cross-cutting themes.
Our R&DE (research, development, education) core values that have to do with excellence and students first, sustainability, health, deliciousness. All of those things are kind of foundational at the same time. So we actually collaborate with faculty in all seven schools, which is for me super fun because I get to learn about the business dimensions of food and the psychology and social sciences. We have the new Stanford Doerr School of Sustainability that is a very active partner. We have phenomenal partners in the School of Medicine. And when possible, of course, we bring them all together.
One really phenomenal culmination of all of those different research efforts is we host something called the Stanford Food Institute Food Systems Symposium, where every year, I like to explain it as a food systems science fair. It's a kind of exhibition style showcase. Researchers get really creative with how they show their work. We had over a hundred researchers at our latest symposium. And it demonstrates that real diversity of disciplines and topics that, that touch food because that's what's so exciting about food. It touches all parts of society. That's one big example. And then we have a number of community partnerships in the Bay Area. One is with the nonprofit Farms to Grow and we're really committed long term to helping support black farmers, not only in California, but sharing our model for increasing supplier diversity and equitable supply chains with other institutions. So those are just two examples, but it's really such a pleasure and an honor to lead the Stanford Food Institute. And as you can likely gather, it's really quite complimentary to the menus of change university research collaborative as well.
I am really excited to learn about this symposium. And I got to say, I've worked in land grant institutions before, and I studied at land grant institutions. And so it's interesting to hear of a school like Stanford that is not a land grant. That doesn't have a tradition of agriculture in a narrowly defined sense engaging in this work. I mean, how is it that you're able to find that many people? You said a hundred folks were working on different projects related to the food system. Is it just happening, and people don't necessarily know that it's happening and you're able to bring them together? What's going on there?
That's a good question. I don't have a scientific answer. I have a hunch. Anecdotal evidence. We're talking about research here. So, I’ve got to be clear on my methods for answering. I'll tell you, Norbert, so before I was in this role, one of the things I did was I taught a class at Stanford in the School of Design that was all about food systems careers. And it was essentially a stopgap because there was so much interest from undergraduate students in careers in food systems. But they didn't know what on earth they were going to do to make money, to make a living. How were they going to tell their parents I'm going to use all this money you spent on my degree to do what exactly? There also was just not a clear sense of even what the role types were. What's out there? What's possible? How can I make a difference? And so that class that we co-taught for several years. And I say that because that was just an interesting signal of how many students were interested, sort of, you know, poking at the edges. But a lot of them, to be honest, I call it off ramping. They didn't see the path. They just went the path that was more clear cut. They went to law school or they went to med school. And then they said, ‘well, I'll just like cook at home as a side hobby instead. Because maybe my passion for food doesn't need to be my career.’ And so I think what we're really doing with the Food Institute, and there's a number of other kind of similar initiatives, is trying to say, let's try to, you know, address this in a more root cause kind of way. We have something now called the Stanford Food Systems Community, which is just a list serve. And in the fall, we host an event right at the beginning of the year where it's, it's kind of a, again, a come one, come all. We come to the farm, the actual farm at Stanford and have a pizza party and get to know all the different events and things on campus.
I think to me, it's, it's a groundswell that's happening nationwide. So, I'm also an author and I've spoken for my books at a lot of universities. And I will often get asked to speak to the career services department. They'll ask me, can you talk about careers in food systems? I've seen this groundswell of interest from students. And then I think a lot of faculty also are really seeing how maybe they study law or a certain dimension. But its kind of either like backs into food or stumbles upon food, maybe. You know, we don't have, like you're saying, we don't have a department in nutrition. I mean, we don't have a specifically food kind of academic framework. But it's more those inherent intersectionalities with food where it's almost in, I think, inescapable to faculty. And then it's really kind of bolstered by how many students are expressing interest. It's something I'm really excited to see where we're in conversations with faculty to do even more to just make students aware of how many classes there are. Because I think sometimes that is the challenge that it's there, but they just don't know how to access it.
Right. Thank you for sharing that. And I got to say, I've been taking notes, so I may follow up with you some more later. You've been working with campus food leaders for over a decade now. And you talked about that even in, I guess, in referencing the class as well. What is it about colleges and universities that excite you when it comes to making positive changes in the food system? And you've given me a little bit about that. I'm intrigued to see what else are you seeing?
You know, it's surprising. It's the longest I've done something, like a certain one specific role is, is co leading this collaborative. Because I actually co-founded it when I was with the Culinary Institute of America on the other side of the partnership. And I think I have just a deep appreciation, and maybe I like to describe myself as an I realist, idealist mixed with a realist. A realistic view of the potential for universities to be change agents in society. Does it mean they always use that potential? No, but it's there. It's everything from the incubators of new knowledge. They're where new ideas emerge, right? I remember when I first went to the University of Bologna, and it's been there for a thousand years. That's just incredible, right? But it's also a place of growth and expanding your mind for students. Many of these higher education institutions are what's been referred to as anchor institutions. They are huge employers in a region. They are huge thought leaders in a region. They're places of opportunity for all kinds of different things. Whether it's collaborations with private sector and industry, whether it's international kind of tourism and exposure, I mean, so many different possibilities there. And I think the other big thing is that, and I should just say on the anchor institution point, it's the, all that purchasing power too, that I mentioned right there. Very streamlined, fairly agile decision making. I'm sure someone on the podcast is going to say, you think Higher Ed is agile, you know. There's bureaucracy, I know, but I just mean compared to some other food service companies or industries where it's really hard to make changes within campus dining, in particular, you do have a fairly sizable, you know, amount of purchasing power that can have fairly quick, they can be early adopters and they're known as early adopters. The food service industry really looks at what's campus dining doing. That's the tip of the spear. That's a signal of the trends to come. That's a signal of what are going to be the new norms.
And the last thing is that we really embrace the fact that students in college, this is this unique period of identity formation. They're figuring out their relationships to food. What is the role that food is going to play in their lives? What do they value? How does that get reflected through food? How does that make them feel? How do they perform academically, physically, et cetera? And of course, for community and belonging, coming together, breaking bread, et cetera. We really love this stat where we've seen that in a given year, we have 4 million meals across the collaborative. But it's not just the meals that these students eat when they're on our campuses. It's the billions of meals they will go on to consume in their collective lifetimes, and when they go on to be decision makers and parents and in the other future realms. And again, that shaping formative opportunity. There are many reasons, I guess, that I've been motivated and I think the potential is still just tremendous. I'm excited for all that's ahead.
This is great. And I love the idea and the recognition that this is this formative time for students. That their taste, which may have been shaped, of course, from home, but are being transformed in the dining halls. The place where they're learning to step out and make decisions about food in a way that they couldn't even in high school. I really appreciate this idea and this opportunity. And I appreciate the sort of seriousness that you take at approaching this issue. I have to say, as someone who's related to or connected to a policy center, I am intrigued to think about what kind of policy initiatives, federal, state, even university, do you see coming out of the work of the collaborative?
Well, you know, it's really exciting when there is, again, I mentioned that our schools are both public and private, right? So, policy has so many opportunities to kind of shape, again, that social or political will that the decision makers administrators, dining directors may have to pursue something. So, you know, the University of California has been part of the collaborative, most of their campuses have been part for a very long time. And it just is a good example, I think to me, where in that state, there is so much support from the governor's office for farm to fork, local procurement, direct procurement, supplier diversity, regenerative agriculture, climate friendly and plant forward meals in public schools, in K 12. It's that sort of enabling environment, I think, that policy can create and also learn from. So, if it sees constellation of institutions, making a bold move or all aligning on the same kind of, you know, targets or metrics, that can give them the wind at their backs to pass something that maybe applies to all publicly run institutions. Or all food vendors in their state.
For example, I would love to see more policy efforts on data and reporting. As I shared with you about collective impact, we're really proud of what we've done, but this is all voluntary, right? We're just choosing to measure this and hold ourselves accountable and keep striving. But I think at some point if it becomes required, you could have more resources in these institutions being brought to do that hard work that is required. I mean, it's not only, you know, sharing with us, but then it's analyzing your menu. What were the strategies that led to that biggest reduction? How did the student feedback go? Working with suppliers is a huge area that Stanford's really excited to have begun, but it takes time. It's, and we need more support, more capacity to do that.
I could envision that if there were more requirements kind of coming from policy for some of that tracking and disclosing. And an example that gives me reason to think that's possible is again in California. Something called SB 1383 requires Institutions like ours and all others to disclose their food donation amounts. And I think that's a really interesting example again of measuring something. Bring a measurement requirement from policy to something that maybe everyone's already been doing because it was just best practice, or something that they wanted to know for themselves again that more voluntary. I think there's a lot of opportunities to do more of that. And I would love to see more of those state and regional policies, but also some of these kind of best practices emerge from some of these states and counties that become perhaps nationwide.
You know the old saying, if you don't measure it, you can't change it because you don't know. And I love the fact that the collaborative sees itself as a place to prototype, to figure out how do we collect these data. How do we make it less burdensome? Because if you can figure those things out, then I can imagine allowing others to replicate that. This is a great test bed for what policies could look like by the work that you all are doing, it sounds like.
And I think that's a really important point because I think the fear would be that policies get created in a vacuum, right? Where you just say, we're going to require you to disclose XYZ crazy detailed things that either an entity doesn't know how to get, can't get, or it costs them thousands and thousands of dollars to collect, or something along those lines. And so, really marrying feasibility, sort of what measurement tools exist how is the kind of dynamic between humans in your environments and those technology tools? I mean, food waste measurement right now is an area that we're really focusing on that because AI and there's a huge opportunity to kind of reduce the burden on staff. But so far, it's been difficult for pretty much every food service operation, including campuses, to get really high-quality food waste data. Even though they may have these tools. And it often has to do with how difficult, how much time it requires staff. I think it's really key that policymakers really, yeah, work with institutions like ours. We love to be, as you said, that kind of prototyping place to find the right balance of rigor and frequency and volume of data with, again, kind of labor and financial constraints and operational realities. And for us, it's also critically important to keep in mind the student experience. How do we not do so many research projects in a four walled space so that we forget this is their home. This is where students eat and live every day. It can't only be about us getting as much data as possible, of course. It's just really accounting for all those variables in the equation.
I appreciate this. And I swear, Sophie, we could talk forever. Let me ask you one last question. And I think this is a good place for us to come to an end. What are the different ways people can get involved in the Menus of Change University Research Collaborative?
Excellent. Well, please do. So first, the easiest thing is just check out our website. Everything that we create is open source. As I mentioned, it for sure can be applied in university settings, but it pretty much across the board can be applied in a number of other settings. Food service, for sure, but also there's a lot of, whether it's prepared foods at retails, other settings in general. Check out moccollaborative. org in particular, our resources and research. The other way is if you're affiliated with an institution, if you're an academic researcher, and you can get in touch with us to find out about. Or you can become what we call a member institution where dining services and at least one academic researcher are involved. Then you're actually part of all that data collection kind of effort. I think the other biggest area is if you have students who are interested, if once you become a member institution, as I mentioned, there's tons of opportunities to get involved in shaping research. But also in the educational side, which is through our MCRC student fellows program. So those would be some of the big ones, and we always love feedback, too. Tell us how you're utilizing the resources and how we can continue to identify gaps in the research agenda that we are uniquely positioned to help fill.
BIO
Sophie Egan, MPH is the Director of the Stanford Food Institute and Sustainable Food Systems at R&DE Stanford Dining, Hospitality & Auxiliaries, where she is Co-Founder and Co-Director of the Menus of Change University Research Collaborative. She is also the author of How to Be a Conscious Eater (Workman, 2020)—named one of Bon Appétit’s “Favorite New Books for Climate-Friendly Cooking and Life”—and the founder of Full Table Solutions, a consulting practice that’s a catalyst for food systems transformation. An internationally recognized leader at the intersection of food, health, and climate, Sophie is also a contributor to The New York Times Health section and Director of Strategy for Food for Climate League. Previously, Sophie served as the Director of Health and Sustainability Leadership/Editorial Director for The Culinary Institute of America’s Strategic Initiatives Group. Sophie’s writing has been featured in The Washington Post, TIME, Parents, The Wall Street Journal, Bon Appétit, WIRED, EatingWell, Edible San Francisco, FoodTank, and Sunset. She is a member of the Food System 6 Advisory Board, James Beard Foundation Sustainability Advisory Council, and the Food Tank Academic Working Group. She holds a BA with honors in history from Stanford University; an MPH with a focus on health and social behavior from UC Berkeley; and a certificate from the Harvard Executive Education in Sustainability Leadership program.
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Today we discuss a new and provocatively titled book written by Southwestern Law School professor Andrea Freeman, an expert on issues of race, food policy, and health from both legal and policy perspectives. The book's title, Ruin Their Crops on the Ground, the Politics of Food in the United States from the Trail of Tears to School Lunch, has been called the first and definitive history of the use of food in the United States law and politics as a weapon of conquest and control. Freeman argues that the U. S. food law and policy process has both created and maintained racial and social inequity. She documents governmental policies from colonization to slavery; to the commodities supplied to Native American reservations. She argues that the long-standing alliance between government and the food industry has produced racial health disparities to this day.
Interview Summary
Let's talk about the title of your book. What are you trying to communicate?
So 'ruin their crops on the ground' is a paraphrase of what George Washington ordered his troops to do, to try to displace Indigenous people and take over their land.
That's a pretty powerful image to think about that. So, in your book, you use the term food oppression. Can you explain what you mean?
Yes. So I originally started writing about food oppression as the alliance between corporations, the food and agricultural industries, and the government that [00:02:00] create stark health disparities on a racial basis, sometimes gender and class. And as I've come through thinking about this over the years, I'm also using it to describe the way that food has always been used as a tool of subordination by the U.S. Government in history.
An interaction between the industry and government isn't inherently oppressive. How does it come to be that way? I mean, it could be good, good for the public, it could be bad, but why does it, how does it become oppressive?
Yeah, I agree that the problem with the food industry is that the desire to make profits is in conflict with the nutritional needs of people that the U.S., Government programs focus on nutrition are supposed to be serving.
Let's go back to some of the earlier times. You've written about the role that food played in slavery. Could you explain?
Absolutely. So, enslavers were very careful about the portions and the type of food that they gave to people. the people that they enslaved. And they would write pamphlets and advise each other. Hoping to find a balance to give enslaved people enough food to be able to work and be alive, but not enough to give them the energy to revolt or perform acts of resistance that they inevitably did. And then food was used to create hierarchies within enslaved peoples. It was used to, I don't know, take away pleasure, really, from life to oppress people in so many ways. And so, not just from the content of the food, but even the way that food was delivered. So, instead of eating on plates, food might be poured into a pig trough or scattered on the ground, right? There are so many ways that enslavers used food to try to degrade and subordinate people through either the portions or the content or the delivery.
Food is such a fundamental and kind of elementary form of reinforcement. You could imagine it being used to punish particular individuals and reward others.
Absolutely. And the law backed up the way that enslavers used food. And even when enslaved people wanted to grow their own food, and perhaps sell it to gain some advantage, the law prevented that. Enslavers might just take over those gardens. Steal the food. Use it for their own purposes. That was all perfectly legal. And the law tried to protect other enslavers from having enslaved people come and steal their food by having some laws in place that said, you must give adequate provisions, which looked like something that might protect enslaved people, but in fact was only to protect other enslavers.
Going back to the title of your book, it makes reference to the Trail of Tears. And people have highly varying levels of knowledge of what the Trail of Tears refers to. In North Carolina, it's a really important and tragic part of the state's history for the native individuals living in the western part of the state. But could you tell us more about how food figured into this, what it was and how food figured in?
Of course. So the United States wanted the land that Indigenous people were living on. And they designated a part of the country that covers Oklahoma and some states around there and called it the Indian Country or Indian Territory. And to try to force indigenous people to move to that land and to make a journey across the country that was so dangerous, and ended up killing maybe half of the people who made that journey, they destroyed the food sources of people. They had no choice at all. They were starving. They either had to go or die there with no food. And food played into the promises that were made by the United States government of rations that would be given along the way and when people arrived. However, in reality, the rations were gone by the time many people arrived. Or they were bad meat or they were just inedible. And so, they caused not only people to move, but then once they arrived, caused many more deaths. Either along the way or once they were there. A lot of it was unfamiliar food that couldn't be cooked or digested. Food played a major role in the Trail of Tears and what happened both before and after that journey.
And the quality of the land for agriculture that they were forced to settle on was part of the picture too, wasn't it?
Yes. Some of it was good and some of it was absolutely terrible. And people were given no choice about where they were going to end up.
Let's fast forward to more current times. The U. S. Department of Agriculture has created several very important nutrition programs with the stated aim of improving nutrition. But you've raised some concerns. Please tell us why?
Yes. If we just think about that journey that began with the Trail of Tears and with George Washington's order. And then the role that food rations have played in the relationship between the United States and Indigenous people. The rations that were first introduced in trying to force that move, then played a role in many elements of this policy. For example, rations were taken away if parents would not give up their children to the federal Indian boarding schools. They were taken away as a punishment if Indigenous people engage in their own cultural and kinship practices under the Code of Indian Offences.
And so, rations played a huge role, and they continue to do so. They have now transformed into what is the food distribution program for Indian reservations. Which is another system whereby the United States is providing food to Indigenous people who are living on reservations, do not have access to many food sources at all, and so, are in need of nutrition. But the contents of the food that are given out through this program don't reflect the needs of the people who are receiving it. They reflect the needs of the agricultural industries and the surpluses that the USDA is responsible for getting rid of because of federal subsidies through the Farm Bill.
You've written as well about food marketing. Tell us what your thoughts are on that?
Food marketing is so important because it really defines in our society who eats what. It tells us a story that is rife with racial stereotypes and kind of propaganda about food. And it also determines the food landscape in many ways. When I think about race and marketing, marketing first of food really just employed a lot of racist tropes. Because marketing was directed only to white people. And, you know, racism was something that sold. We've seen that change and become more subtle over the years to the present where we even see food marketing taking on anti-racism as a form of what's called woke washing, to try to gain consumer dollars by adopting a certain political position.
The issue of who is targeted by marketing is enormously interesting, complex, and highly important. I'm glad to see you addressing that in your book. Let me ask one final question before we wrap up. How is the U. S. Constitution involved in this?
I have a theory as a constitutional law professor that the way that the United States has dealt with food in a way that creates racially disparate outcomes violates both the 13th amendment and the 14th amendment. So, let me explain. The 13th Amendment says that anything that comes out of slavery as a vestige, or a badge or a marker of slavery is not allowed. And that means that policies that began back then, that continued today with discriminatory harm are prohibited under the13th Amendment. I talked a little bit about how during slavery food was used to oppress and subordinate. And that caused health problems. Very racially disparate health problems where enslaved people suffered from illnesses and conditions and deaths associated with food and malnutrition at much higher rates than white people. That was explained away by constitution and genetics, but that was all lies. In the present, we still have those disparities and they're still due to deliberate policies that create this oppression, the food oppression that I talked about in the beginning. The 13th amendment should not allow that kind of food discrimination in the same way that it doesn't allow housing discrimination. Now, under the 14th amendment, all people should be treated equally by the government. But what we have is food policy that treats people differently based on their race. In the case of the Food Distribution Program on Indian Reservations (FDPIR), that's quite clear. In some other cases, like public school lunches, you have to kind of take a step back to understand how there are racially disparate effects. But the same commodities that the USDA is responsible for getting rid of, that they do through the Indian reservation program are being sent to schools. And these are public schools where in many districts, there are many more Black, Latina, indigenous students than white students. For example, where I am in LA, that's 94 percent of the public-school population. And the government is using that program to get rid of very unhealthy food that is making kids who go to public schools sick. And that is unequal treatment under the law. It should violate the 14th Amendment.
You know, I'm not an expert on constitutional law, but this is the first time I've heard this argument made and it's really an interesting one. Do you think there would be a day when we would see legal action based on this theory?
I think it's possible. I don't think that legal action would be successful in our present moment of jurisprudence. But I think that framing is really important for people to think about and to understand what is happening. And I think that sometimes thinking about things as unconstitutional can provoke social action. Social movement. It can allow people to think about injustice in a certain way that creates resistance. So, I think it's important, even if we can't bring a case today, on that basis.
BIO
Andrea Freeman is a law professor at Southwestern Law School in Los Angeles. She is a national and international expert on the intersections between critical race theory and food policy, health, and consumer credit. She is the author of Ruin Their Crops on the Ground: The Politics of Food in the United States, from the Trail of Tears to School Lunch (Metropolitan 2024) and Skimmed: Breastfeeding, Race, and Injustice (Stanford University Press 2019), in addition to book chapters, law review articles, and op-eds. Skimmed is currently in development for a documentary with Topic Pictures. Her work has been featured in publications including the Washington Post, New Yorker, Los Angeles Times, Salon, Huffington Post, USA Today, The Root, Yahoo! News, The Atlantic, NPR Shots Blog, Pacific Standard, The Conversation, Medium, Atlanta Journal-Constitution, and National Library of Medicine, and she has done interviews with news outlets and programs including CBS News, PBS News Hour, The Takeaway, Here & Now, Point of Origin, Newstalk Irish National Radio, Heritage Radio Network, The Electorette, Hawaii Public Radio. She studied food inequality in the UK as the 2020-21 Fulbright King's College London U.S. Scholar.
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Empowering Women in AgriFood Tech: A Conversation with Amy Wu of From Farms to Incubators - In this episode of the Leading Voices in Food podcast, host Norbert Wilson speaks with Amy Wu, the creator and content director of From Farms to Incubators. Amy shares her inspiring journey in highlighting and supporting women, particularly women of color, in the agri-food tech industry. Learn about the origins of her groundbreaking documentary and book, her vision for a vibrant community of women innovators, and the crucial role of education, mentorship, and policy in advancing women's roles in this sector.
Interview Summary
I have a great set of questions for you. So, the first thing, could you just tell our listeners a little bit more about From Farms to Incubators?
Sure. From Farms to Incubators is a special initiative and project that tells the stories of women in this fast-growing field known as ag tech, sometimes interchangeably used as Agri food tech as well. The mission of it is really to get more women involved in ag tech through storytelling, through resources, and also through education and training. I also would describe it as a multimedia content platform. I actually came to this as a journalist and as a storyteller that uses storytelling to amplify the voices of women leaders and entrepreneurs in this field. It's also a documentary and a book and also a website where we archive their stories and their biographies as well.
Thanks for that overview, and you just talked about the book and the documentary From Farms to Incubators: women innovators revolutionizing how our food is grown, which uses storytelling to highlight women innovators and how women innovators in the Agri food tech are doing their best. But there's also a movement and the community and this multimedia platform. Why did you expand from the book and documentary into this larger network?
That's a really good question. Briefly, as some context, I kind of fell into this project. It was a bit of serendipity. I was a reporter in Salinas, California, which is the vegetable salad bowl of the world. Ag is a huge industry, a 10 billion industry. And I was covering government and agriculture. And I observed that there were not a lot of women at the helm of the table, whether it be at farms or also in this growing field of ag tech as well. So it started off as a documentary. I got a grant from the International Center for Journalists, and then ultimately I got another grant from the International Media Women's Foundation to do a short documentary to profile three women who are entrepreneurs in ag tech. It was great. It was at the time in 2016, which now was ages ago, I guess. It was really hard to find women in ag, in this field of ag tech, women creating the innovations to tackle some of the biggest challenges that farmers are facing, especially under climate change. So, it could have ended there because the documentary turned out to be very, very well received. It's screened at hundreds of places, and I would have panels and discussions and the women would look at each other like, 'my gosh, I didn't know there were other women doing this too. Can you connect us? We'd love to convene further.' And then educators, community leaders, agribusinesses, investors just didn't know they existed as well. So, what happened was the stories kind of multiplied and multiplied as the more that I collected them. And then I decided to put it into a book profiling about 30 women in this growing field.
And to answer your question, Norbert, why is it continuing is that I saw a real need for women to have a community, women in agriculture and innovation and food systems to have a community to connect with one another, to potentially build friendship, build collaboration, build partnership, creating a collective vision sometimes and a place for them. I didn't plan on it. So, I guess the storytelling connects them. We've also have resources like a database that connects them and the goal is really so that they can have a community where they can build more. They can either build out their own startups. They can build their careers, build their professions. And then it kind of grew more legs. Now we're also extending into the area of education and training to try to get younger women, young people, youth. To see that agriculture, hey, may not be traditionally sexy. I mean, tractors and overalls are still what a lot of people think about it, but there are so many other opportunities in the food system for young people as well, especially since we all have to eat. So, how are farmers going to be producing the food for 10 billion people in 2050, right? Who's going to produce the food? How are we going to do it? Especially under the auspices of climate change, the weather's getting crazier and crazier. That's sort of why it has expanded from the stories all the way to what it is today.
This is a great story and I would love to hear a little bit more about some of the women and their innovations. And if I may, I would like for you to actually even explain a little bit about what you mean by the ag food tech or Agri food tech as you're talking about these women.
Broadly defined, is any kind of innovation that makes it easier, frankly, for farmers to do their work, to grow more efficiently, and to also increase [00:06:00] their yield. I can give some examples of what innovation is. Blockchain addresses food safety, really. It traces everything from the seed to all the way on the shelf, right? So if there's any safety issues, it's used to trace back, where did that seed come from? Where was it grown? What field was it in? And that really helps everybody in the food systems a lot more, right? We have sensors connected with drones. I forgot to mention robotics as well, which is a fast-growing area of ag tech. Everything from self-driving tractors to laser scarecrows to another level of robots that are picking specific kinds of fruits and vegetables that's tackling labor challenges. I don't foresee that ag tech necessarily is a replacement by the way of people. It's actually offering more opportunities because we need people who are very knowledgeable that kind of innovation.
And then you also asked a bit about the stories of the women in ag tech, for example, in the film and in the book and so forth. Soil sampling is a fast-growing area of ag tech. There's the story that I have in the book and also in the movie of two young women who are Stanford PhD graduates. Who created a soil testing kit that makes it easy for farmers to just test their soil for diseases, for pests, and soil testing is traditionally, you know, very, very expensive for most farmers actually. Not easy for farmers to get access to it and to get the data, but the soil testing kit that they created makes it a lot easier for farmers, small farmers even, to access it. And why is that important is because the more knowledge, the more data that, and analytics that farmers can get, the more that they can make smart decisions about how much to fertilize, how much to irrigate.
And that connects with the yield and their success. You know, another company that I can think about, another amazing woman. I just like her story, the story of AgTools and the story of Martha Montoya, who was actually an award-winning cartoonist. And she doesn't come from agriculture at all, and that's actually something that I want to highlight is a lot of these women are not farmers and don't come from agriculture. But she was a award winning cartoonist. I believe she was also a librarian and she fell into the food industry, and saw a need for having more data, offering more data and analytics to farmers. She created a system a little bit like a Bloomberg for farmers, where they can get real time data immediately on their phones, on their watches, so that they can get second by second data to make decisions on specific crops.
Those are a couple of the stories that are in the book, but really what I want to highlight is that all of the innovation that they are creating addresses some of the biggest challenges that farmers are facing, whether it be labor issues,lack of water, some areas of our country are becoming more wet, others are becoming more dry, drones that are actually doing the irrigation now or drones taking photos to give more data to farmers as well on what is their land look like. You know, it could also be human resources related as well to manage staff. So mobile apps to manage staff on cattle farms. I mean, how big are the cattle farms sometimes, you know, 50,000 acres. So, it's really to save money and to create efficiency for farmers.
If farmers are able to do their work more efficiently, they're able to generate greater profits, but it also allows for food prices not to rise. This has really big implications. Thank you for sharing those stories. And I love hearing about some of the individuals, but here's the question. I mean, why focus on women? What's important about what women contribute to this? And also, why are you also considering race as an important lens in this sector?
Well, I would say, why not women? Because women have already been contributing to the global food system, whether in the production end or the decision makers at the head of the dinner table for thousands of thousands of years, arguably. So what I discovered is that their stories, their contributions, existing contributions were not being celebrated and were not being amplified. And I actually discovered that a lot of the women that I connected with were a bit shy about even telling their story and sharing it like kind of like, 'what is my contribution?' And I'm like, 'well, why aren't you sharing your story more?' So the goal of it really is to document and celebrate their contributions, but also to inspire. As I said, young women, next generation, all of us have daughters, nieces, granddaughters, you know, and then future generations to consider opportunities in a field where we need people. We need people who are smart and you don't have to be from a generation of farmers. You could be in science, engineering, technology, and math. You could just be passionate about it and you could be in the field. So that's the first aspect of it.
And in terms of the lens of gender and race, there are not enough women in terms of just the startups in ag tech right now, only 2 percent of the billions of dollars being invested in ag tech startups. Only 2 percent are going into women led companies. It is very, very little. It is a problem that is deep rooted. And it starts with [00:12:00] funding. One problem is where is the funding coming from. Venture capitalists, traditional avenues of funding, where it is traditionally male dominated. So, there are many studies that show that investors will invest in companies where they connect with those who are leading the companies, right? So similar gender, similar backgrounds, similar stories. So, we're really looking to have a paradigm shift and move the needle of sorts and say that if there are more investors, there are more board members who are from a diversity backgrounds, then there will be more funding for women and those who are traditionally not leading agriculture, not in the leadership positions, not in the decision-making roles, right? There is a problem. There is a, what is a grass ceiling, not just glass ceiling, but grass ceiling.
I hear you. I hear you. Now this is really fascinating. I know from colleagues who are in agriculture that there is this demand for more agricultural workers throughout the Agri food system. And if there is a demand, we're saying that our colleges that produce the potential workers aren't meeting those demands. One of the ways we can see that change is by having more women and more people of color join in. And so, this is a critical thing. And I would imagine also the experiences that people bring may be a critical part of coming up with new innovations. Diversity can do that. This is exciting that you're exploring this.
I love what you're saying Norbert. I know I wanted to touch upon that about what you just noted is that it's also to create a pipeline, right? Education training is just so critical. And it makes me so happy to see that there are more and more programs at universities and colleges that are addressing programs in food systems, in agriculture, and increasingly in ag tech. So, whether it be courses or programs or certificates or eventually minors and majors, developing the pipeline of talent is really important and having mentors and mentees, which is something that now we're working on. This fall we'll have launched a menteeship program for women and for young people interested in ag tech and the first collaborator is the UC Merced in California. So, thanks for bringing that up. We have a couple of young people ready at the starting gates. Really excited.
I will say just on a personal note, I was active in 4 H for most of my youth and that's the way I got involved in agriculture. So, touching or reaching out to folks in their youth is critical to get them excited and help them to make the connection so that they can do that work further. I'm glad to hear this work. In your view, what are some of the ongoing challenges and opportunities that women face in the ag tech sector or the Agri food sector? What are some of the things you're observing?
Well, a continued challenge is having a place at the table, meaning at the leadership and decision-making level. And actually, as I noted earlier, the access to funding and not just the money, but the access to resources, meaning could be legal operational. Just how to get their startups or get their ideas out there. One example that I'm seeing that's again positive is that there's a growing number of incubators and accelerators specifically in food tech or ag tech that are is actually looking for candidates who are women or who are from underrepresented communities. The first thing is that they have a great innovation, of course, but the next thing that the incubators and accelerators are looking for is to have a diversity of perspectives. And to have representation, so seeing a lot more of that, whether it be. Individual accelerators, or even once at the university, right? Universities and colleges and the governmental level.
The other challenge is access to farmers and connecting them with the farmers themselves. Cause farmers are very, very busy and that's highlighted and bolded. Increasingly just dealing with this chess game that's very hard to play with the weather, but also with their own resources. It's expensive being a farmer, equipment, labor. They don't often have the time, frankly, to beta test some of the innovations coming out. So how best to connect innovators with the farmers and to have them communicate with each other: like this is the innovation. This is how it's going to help your problem. Educating the farmers and allowing them to see that this is how it's going to address the problem that I have. So, the two are still kind of separate and access to each other is still, I would say, a major challenge. But right now, some of the solutions are, as I've noted, networking at conferences and convenings. Also, under the grant programs sometimes under the National Science Foundation or USDA, they are allowing more collaborative initiatives where you have educators, where you have policy, where you have the innovators, where you have the young people. Increasingly, seeing more and more of those kinds of projects and initiatives happen. So hopefully everybody will have a seat at the table and that would help women out a lot in the field as well.
Awesome. Thank you for sharing those. And I love the fact that you're looking at not just identifying issues, but also trying to find ways of connecting folks to help overcome those challenges that women and women of color are facing in the marketplace. And it's the connections that are really critical. I appreciate you highlighting that. So, what is your ideal vision?
Oh, one more thing I forgot to note is that in terms of connecting, there's also a database - a women in Agri food tech database, and I, and at least four or five other women in the field have been working on for at least four or five years now. We now have more than a thousand members. It's an open-source database where you can click on a form, put your name there and information takes a few minutes and then you're added to this database where the women can be connected to each other as well. So that's another resource.
Yeah. And I mean, even just having peer mentors, not just mentors who are above you and they've like solved all the problems, but having people to go along with you as you're developing and as they are developing can be a critical part. I know as an academic, that's important for me and has been important for me. And I can imagine the same is true in this space as well. So, I'm so grateful to hear about this work. Yeah. What is your ideal vision for women in Agri food tech in the next, say, five years? And how will the digital network for from farms to incubators play a role in achieving that goal or those goals?
So, my dream - it always starts, I think, in the dreaming phase and then connecting that with also resources along the way. But if I could wave my magic wand, I would say that. We would have a lot more women in leadership and thought decision making positions in ag tech to the point where maybe we won't even need something like From Farms to Incubators anymore because they'll be already equal. The stories will be out there. So, it might be questionable as to why we have a special subgroup or network for this now. How to get to that vision, I think is the three components of increasingly having more stories, and the women tell their stories at public outreach. You know, it could be at conferences, it could be in their own communities, sharing their story out to the community of farmers, of local government, of schools, local schools and colleges and universities, gardening clubs.
The second component is education and training, building a pipeline. A vision that I have is actually having a campus. A virtual, and also in-person campus where women, especially from women in underprivileged communities will have the opportunity to have training and to be connected with mentors and the rock stars in the ag tech and Agri food tech field. Where they will also be able to have a project and initiative and test it out and have something to add to their portfolio. To have classes and people who are teaching those courses as well, ultimately. And then also to just build up a hub of resources. Like I mentioned the database. I mentioned that we'd like to extend it to having resources where folks can easily access internships, fellowships, granteeships, where they can be connected to funding. If they need help with legal, HR, just all components of everything that's needed to have a successful organization.
And it doesn't have to just be their own startup. It could be a job database of where we have larger organizations and companies that are building up their own ag innovation or food innovation center as well. So that is the vision. It's a big vision. It's a big dream. So we're going to have to kind of break it down into components. But I think taking it step by step is the way to go kind of like climbing Everest or doing a long distance swim.
Yes, I can see where you're trying to go in this vision and I'm interested to know what, if any role policy could play and help advance that vision.
Yeah, so what role could policy play in advancing this vision? Currently, when it comes to diversity inclusion in the ag tech field or even in agriculture, there is somewhat a lack of policy in a way. But then also with individual organizations and corporations, obviously, there is the movement of diversity inclusion. But also, I think it's very much with the hiring practices with HR. I think it's up to individual organizations, whether they be small, larger ones, governmental, to look at their own hiring practices. To look at who they are, how are they crafting the language when they look for a job, when they look at their leadership team, are there ways to further diversify it and when it comes to, gender, ethnicities, people who come from a rural area, urban. I mean, we all come with, from a diversity of perspectives and stories. I think a lot of it will come down to hiring practices and advancing this vision and with the individuals who are already working at those organizations to be more thoughtful and conscious about giving those who don't have a place at the table, a place and a voice at the table, giving everybody a chance. Because we have some amazingly talented and knowledgeable people who just traditionally in agriculture don't have families and generations who come from an ag background. But they do come with so much that they could offer. I would say that those are a couple of examples of that as well. And maybe, more discussion about policy is really needed on a larger level when it comes to farmers, when it comes to government leaders, when it comes to innovation leaders as well. And when it comes to educators and schools. I think the more the merrier when it comes to bringing folks at the table to open it up for discussion on solutions.
I appreciate this. And, this idea of not just welcoming people so that they get in the door, but also creating change. Environments and spaces where people are actually welcomed once they're there. That it becomes a place where folks can be themselves and bring all of who they are to the work that they're doing. This is critical.
Yes, absolutely. I want to touch upon that. My own story is I don't have an agricultural background myself. But when I first , landed in a place like Salinas, very much sort of an outsider because I'm not from there anyway, but also not in agriculture and then being a woman and being, you know, a Chinese American woman too, you know, I, I did feel that there was a challenge to kind of break into certain circles and to be welcome. Even despite my passion and enthusiasm, there was a little bit like, 'what is she? Why? Why? What? She, she doesn't know anything.' But I felt like it was the people who in the beginning, it was just a couple of people who were like, 'Hey, this is somebody who really wants to tell the story of what we're doing. Give her a chance.' You know, having advocates, frontline advocates made a huge difference. So that's what I'm hoping for, more frontline advocates.
Amy, I want to pick up on a personal story out of this. I did my graduate training out at UC Davis, at University of California, Davis. And I worked on dairy policy, which I do not have a dairy background. And it was great to have a mentor who actually helped me. Who introduced me to a number of folks and working through extension and the California Department of Food and Ag. Folks made space for me, and they understood that I was interested in this particular policy and trying to understand what it meant. And I actually got to learn so much. It was because people just said, okay, we'll give you a try. And I did the best I could. I'm grateful for that. Creating these spaces is not hard. It's not impossible. It can be done. I'm really appreciative of your efforts to keep furthering that story.
I love that story. And indeed Norbert it's like what you said, creating the space and even, even in the beginning and just having a couple of folks just to make space. And then I think the space is going to grow from there.
I fully agree. I've got one last question for you. And it's, sort of related to the vision, but just also thinking long term. What impact do you hope your work will ultimately have on society.
I hope that my work will create a bit of a shift ultimately. I mean, that's a rather large goal, but it's not just myself. As this project has grown and extended and expanded. It's really a joint team effort. I mean, along this journey, I've met folks who are mission aligned. And they also see the value in this, and they believe in something similar. Whether it be that they contribute their story, whether it be that they help write the stories, whether it be that they come be a guest speaker, and they share their career, and then they end up connecting with the younger person, every person counts in this. In making a shift. And it might take generations to completely have a paradigm shift, but I think that just moving the needle a bit is ultimately the goal, certainly. And in terms of the bigger picture of things, I'm hoping that it will continue to spark a discussion and ongoing conversation about the importance and the value of bringing different voices and people who traditionally were not given a space at the table when it comes to the food systems and agriculture. But who brings so much talent, so much to the table already. How we can make greater space for them as well, and how we can incorporate their talent and create a better food system for everybody. We all eat and we're looking at 10 billion people in 2050. So, looking at the people who are making those contributions and telling their stories and especially for those who traditionally have not had their voices told, I think is really, really important. I just keep the fire going, I guess.
BIO
Amy Wu is an award-winning writer for the women’s Ag and Agtech movement. She is the creator and chief content director of From Farms to Incubators, a multimedia platform that uses documentary, video, photography, and the written word to tell the stories of women leaders and innovators in Agtech. It has a mission of highlighting women in food, farming, and farmtech, especially women of color. From Farms to Incubators includes a documentary and a book that spotlights women leaders in Ag and Agtech. The documentary and stories have been screened and presented at SXSW and Techonomy. The initiative was awarded grants from the International Center for Journalists and International Women's Media Foundation's Howard G. Buffett Fund. Amy was named on Worth magazine’s “Groundbreakers 2020 list of 50 Women Changing the World” list. Since 2018 she has served as the communications manager at the Hudson Valley Farm Hub in Hurley NY where she runs the website, digital newsletter, and social media. Prior to starting From Farms to Incubators, Amy spent over two decades as an investigative reporter at media outlets including the USA Today Network where she reported on agriculture and Agtech for The Salinas Californian. She’s also worked at Time magazine, The Deal and contributed to The New York Times, The Huffington Post and The Wall Street Journal. She earned her bachelor’s degree in history from New York University, and master’s degree in journalism from Columbia University.
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In today's discussion, we will explore the application of debt relief to large investments in environmental sustainability, which can also support local development, including more resilient food systems. This is particularly timely, given the juxtaposition of enormous debt burdens with increasing environmental commitments by developing countries. Debt for relief swaps, such as financial forgiveness for cash strapped countries if they invest those funds to support global environmental goods, have been around since the 1980s. However, they haven't achieved their full economic or environmental potential, says Duke University Economic and Environmental Policy Professor Alex Pfaff. Smart reforms to improve debt relief programs can allow nations to help themselves and fulfill commitments to preserve the planet. Pfaff and colleagues described needed reforms in a recent analysis in a policy forum for the journal Science, also summarized in Foreign Policy magazine. His co-authors are sustainability expert Elizabeth Losos and conservation professor Stuart Pimm from Duke University. They note that global society has now learned lessons, not only from past debt for nature swaps, but also decades of evaluation of climate change of environmental and development policies.
Interview Summary
I have to say, having read particularly the Science piece, it is clear and it's very straightforward and accessible. But the other thing, it's hopeful. And I think in this moment of climate concerns, it's great to know that there's some ways to possibly move forward. I'd love to hear some more about this. If you don't mind, would you just describe a debt for nature swap? I gave a little bit, but I'd love to hear your consideration of it.
What you said is right. And I'll just agree with you first that we're definitely in a time when doing the right things could help a lot. One of my motivations is a little bit of fear in there, which is, if we don't take the opportunity we look back later and regret it. Which is one of the reasons why we're out there trying to bother people to do what we think would be more effective.
So, coming to the definition. A debt for nature swap, as you said is like it sounds. It's an agreement to forgive debt that countries owe on one condition - that they invest part of that money in some form of investment in nature. It's often been conservation. That was often thought of in terms of species or biodiversity at the time. But nowadays that would include thinking about storing carbon because of climate concerns, and then linking to your use of the term resilience in agriculture - for sure this also could be thinking about a climate adaptation.
Can you give us some examples of countries that have done this? What does this look like on the ground?
Yes, and the history, as you say, is that it started in the 1980s. And we really want to tip our cap to Tom Lovejoy who invented this at a time when, again, as you laid out, but it, at that time, was also true. There was huge amounts of debt and huge concerns about conservation, and it was a pretty simple idea. That it is a potential source of money to invest where the countries can help themselves, as you said, by getting rid of really quite crippling debt - tremendous amounts of interest are being paid on those debts - but also be helping the globe by investing in nature. So countries recently done, for instance, Ecuador has done a very big one recently. Belize has done one that's quite well spoken of. Those are different sized countries, different sized problems, which, as you can imagine from your own work, the institutions matter a lot. But there's been a long string and a long history of willingness to try. And I guess the last thing is that willingness started to go down when, as you summarized, it wasn't really working for the debtors who weren't really getting that much relief in their point of view for a lot of time bargaining. And it wasn't really working perhaps for nature. It wasn't having necessarily the impacts that one might have hoped. So, I think the question now is can we reform them? Because we do still have a big debt problem and we have some big nature problems.
Thank you for sharing that. And it's really fascinating to know that this is not a new idea. It's been around since the 80s. And this hope that I mentioned earlier suggests that there can be ways to make this debt for nature swap work better. I would love to understand what you want readers to take away from the reforms that you all suggest in the article.
Yes, and the punch line at the high level is it makes sense. It hasn't worked as done to first order. Of course, some things have worked. But simple reforms based on things that we have learned over the last few decades could make them work a lot better. So that's the high level. To get a little more detail the four things we say in those articles are the following. You gotta raise the scale. It has to be consequential relative to the scale of debt. Otherwise, it's not worth it for those countries. I think, and we think, and I'll give you the third condition in a moment, but I think for those countries also you have to emphasize local choice and sovereignty. Because there's a real sense of, geez, why are these conservation NGOs coming in telling us what to do in our country? I think there's clear gains to be had from letting local actors decide how to achieve global goals.
Now, the next thing you say is why if they are choosing, well how are they going to be oriented towards achieving global goals? So that's our third condition. You actually have clear measures of outcomes, and you only give relief conditional on measured improvements. That's a huge difference. That really has been more of a process bargain in the past. You will allocate some money to protected areas. Okay, that's fine, but there's actually a very famous fund which allocated money to Brazil. People have shown that Brazil just pulled the money out and spent it on other things that they were spending and just replaced it with the external money. So, then funding [for nature conservation] didn't go up. Or you could say, draw many new protected area circles on a map. Okay, but drawing things on a map doesn't really necessarily get you anything at all. And even defending a place that wasn't going to disappear doesn't get you anything because it wasn't going to disappear. So, there are many stories that in evaluations like I do of environment and development policy, we’ve seen a lot of things that sound sensible but don't really do that much in the end. Great, fine, here's a nice combination. We're going to measure the outcomes. But then you can do whatever you want, right? You can do whatever you want. If for you, you want to expand energy access, but you want to invest in renewable energy, great. A different country wants to stop using agriculture in a particular area and move it to another area, right? Another country wants to intensify agriculture and raise productivity even while leaving space for forests, and the knowledge, the preferences and the right to choose that I think and we think are naturally left with the countries in question who 1) has more information, and 2) are probably the right source of priorities for what matters locally, and if they don't find it interesting. These deals aren't going to happen again. You might then say, why are we just doing what they want? Because you're only giving relief when you measure actual global goals. Once you do that, once you switch to measuring outcomes, you should let people choose what's sensible for them.
Last thing, once you're measuring, as I've mentioned, there's a bunch of different goals you could imagine, right? If I get two NGOs, they don't even have the same goals for species. Forget climate change, forget climate adaptation. There are all these things that people would like to be helpful with. So take, for instance, a project that might save old forests. That probably helps with water quality downstream. It probably provides habitat for species, it definitely stores carbon, and when blocking rainfall that comes torrentially with climate change, it probably helps resilience and washing out of soil for agriculture. What's our last point? When you're counting outcomes, add together all the good ones, because then a project like forest gets points for all four of those. And you do this stuff that's efficient on multiple fronts instead of going left hand, right hand in an uncoordinated fashion. So those are our four suggestions.
That's really helpful. And having spent time with international trade and issues on regulations, one of the things that I've learned is permitting or allowing sovereignty and allowing nations to make decisions, one is politically important, but on the sort of economic side of it, there is something critical about countries knowing their own costs and own, if you will, demands. And allowing them to make those determinations is critical for an efficient and actually politically feasible approach. Is that a fair assessment?
I agree completely. You know agriculture much better than I do. But that description to me fits perfectly. You can come in and say you've got all sorts of good ideas. And even things that are good ideas won't go across because you came in and said them in an annoying way. And then, as you said, [local] folks have better information on what their costs are, better information on local benefits, they could probably design a locally incentive compatible version of what you thought you knew was good. It might have been kind of good but with the local information and interest, it becomes better and then thus more likely to happen. And that's better for the globe as well. I completely agree.
This is great. You've mentioned agriculture a couple of times, and I'd like to hear a little bit more about how you think debt for nature swaps can affect the food and agricultural systems in a country. Especially given the agricultural practices have some significant impacts on the environment and or can be affected by the environment, and particularly climate change.
Completely. Yes, I think it's because of that. Exactly. So, if I had to think of why this environmental resource paper is a fit in agriculture, it's because of what you said. That agriculture bumps up against the environment, so to speak, makes use of nutrients in the soil, sometimes involves the clearing of the land, and bumps up against the public. As climate changes, it really changes the ability to do agriculture in terms of temperature, rainfall, all those things. So, I think just for instance, if we go across all the World Bank labeled low-income countries of the world, the priority on climate adaptation under rainfall shifts versus climate expansion into forests, which could be replaced by climate intensification through more fertilizing and more pesticide use, so that agriculture takes less room but has higher yield. Those priorities are going to vary massively. I think agriculture is a fantastic sector, and it's not been a surprise that you said the things you did to think about the value of measuring the global goal and allowing the local choice.
In some places over fertilization is a huge problem. Not only do you not get more productivity, but you waste money, and you ruin water supply. Some places, pesticide use is an issue and is drifting across and killing plants and other fields. Some places, it's not. And who's the expert on that? Probably the local agricultural extension agents, right? And the local ag agency. So, to me, agriculture is a fantastic, illustrative sector. Not the only one, but an important one. Where the kind of things you said about the value of local information and choice come through in making a big financial swap like this potentially work for everybody.
Thanks for this example. It is great to hear this piece that did have a clear environmental focus, recognize that there is a place for the food system to be a part of that conversation. So, thank you for sharing that. You know, the debt for nature swap is a useful financial tool to support environmental causes, as I just said. And as an environmental economist, how do you use a market-based approach to address environmental challenges? And what, if any, drawbacks do you see to this approach?
In a way this is a form of market-based approach. I agree with you. It's certainly about prices and incentives. And looking around the world, I'm not sure if this is why I'm an economist, but I certainly do think people respond to incentives and that's important. That said and you said drawback. First, I'll just go with alternative to start. Prices are not the only thing people respond to, right? Institutions matter a huge deal. Even the set of opportunities that are available tend to be constructed in ways that are not price or market driven. You know, prices are wonderful. If you have a hundred identical firms and you're trying to figure out who has the lowest marginal cost of reducing carbon emissions. Fab, let them figure it out. Market will do well. Maybe not as fabulous in thinking about the distribution of rights locally between indigenous groups, small farmers, and large multinational corporations, right? Maybe that's not really a market price thing. And we might even get around to values. There are times when people don't really want to operate in a price space. And they're going to have to deal with incentives. But think about preexisting values on conservation, and when those are achieving the same goals as a price would, you don't have to try to wander in with a new market. I think that's fair as well.
I think of incentives as one super important tool. Far from the only one and somewhat in the spirit of our discussion of local knowledge. The right tool blend is an important part of the story as well.
Alex, I have to say, you've ventured in some spaces I'm really happy to hear you talk about. This idea of incorporating values and recognizing that the local knowledge matters - this is not something that we, as economists in our modeling world alone can solve the problem. It is going to take talking to people and learning their needs and learning even the bits about their culture to say what works for them in this moment. So, thank you for sharing that.
You're welcome for that.
In your analysis, in the team's analysis, you all argue for key reforms for debt for nature swaps. What other approaches would you consider to address these large environmental concerns?
I think ‘other’ but also complimentary. I'm in the sense that these are very high-level transfers, right? Here's a bunch of money. Please do something right. And as I said earlier, if we tell them what to do, we don't have a great track record. So, now we're going to maybe measure, right? One of our suggestions is to measure the outcomes. How are they going to get to those outcomes, right? So, there's a whole bunch of tools on the environment and the development policy side, which are also part of the source of learning over the last three or four decades. There's been a real push in a lot of fields, not necessarily to only be like medicine and do randomized control trials, etc., but there is some of that. But also just collect some data on what happened. Please try to figure out if when you do a policy, it actually achieves something.
Besides values, my meta story these days is we have to allow that learning is a good thing. There's a lot of people who seem to not want to even want to ask whether what they did worked because somehow, it's embarrassing. And I feel like we have to move as a world to the humility of learning by doing. And that's just what everybody does. And that means when I did something, half of them worked and half of them didn't. It's a really good idea to learn as fast as you can which ones didn't. So that's a super general speech, not quite to what you asked, but it applies to every tool I've ever known.
So, regarding protected areas - do they always have impact? No. I have a lot of work on that. Can we start to, over 30 years point, to where they have impact? Yes. Could we have measured outcomes? We could have, but we didn't back then. So, could we still use traditional tools like use a protected area, but look at past studies of when they had impact and start to see that it makes sense when they did and when they didn't? Yes. Same thing for payments for ecosystem services and any number of other tools.
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Alexander Pfaff is a Professor of Public Policy, Economics and the Environment at Duke University. He studies how economic development interacts with natural resources and the environment. His focus is designing environment and development policies to support choices by individuals and groups that protect nature, reduce damaging environmental exposures, and improve livelihoods.
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We've recorded a series of podcasts on the microbiome and its wide ranging impacts. But boy is this a field that moves rapidly. As soon as you think you've covered much of the territory, along comes some new and exciting findings, and this is the case today. We're going to describe research done by our guest, Dr. Ibrahim Javed. He has done innovative work on links between the gut microbiome and the brain, particularly focused on Alzheimer's disease. Dr. Javed is an Enterprise Fellow and National Health and Medicine Research Council Emerging Leadership Fellow in Clinical and Health Sciences at the University of South Australia.
Interview Transcript
So let's begin, if you wouldn't mind, with an explanation from you about what the gut brain axis is and tell us how it's important.
Yep. Now we see a lot of, a lot of researchers around the globe building on investigations around the gut brain axis. But if we, if we investigate what this gut brain axis actually is, It's kind of like a bi-directional communication between two organs in our body, the gut and the brain. And when we particularly talk about gut, we have our stomach and our different portions of the intestine.
What we're actually interested in is the microbiome and all those small little things living inside the gut. There are around 100 trillion microbes in the gut, which is three times more than the number of cells in our body. So, we are kind of like more microbes than, than human cells. And they communicate with different organs in our body and how they communicate with the brain that we can describe it as a, as a gut brain axis. And then this whole gut brain axis thing was somehow kind of invisible to us. We were just looking at it as a fecal material or waste coming out of our body. But now we see a lot of importance to these gut microbes. They help us in a lot of daily things that we do. They shape our behavior, our response to stress, our immune system, and then how we respond to different medicines, and how we do our daily tasks. So, they have a lot of roles in that. They help us digest food, that's their main obvious function. But now we are more. getting more and more information about them, that how they are integrated with a lot of different things in our body. So, kind of like they are partners in our life.
That's a very, very nice explanation. Can you tell us about the importance of microbial diversity?
Yep. So microbial diversity, we can, we can refer to, to as a composition of all those bacteria, viruses, and fungi to some extent that, that live in, in our body. Digestive track and, and in a lot of other animals as well. And this diversity is very crucial in maintaining the gut health and on overall well-being of, of humans. And, and this microbiome whole thing is like, it is obviously associated with a lot of health benefits and, and how we develop disease, but it's also right from the beginning of life they help us in developing our brains. They help us mature the brain system and the immune system. Obviously, they help us in digesting food.
So, generally, we can actually divide them in two portions. One, we can call them a good gut bacterium. They help us with all these things. And then they are bad gut bacteria, which are kind of like kept within a within a bay. They are kept under control by this good gut bacteria with the help of the rest of our body. And in somehow in some conditions with the age or with the dietary habits or environmental factor or lifestyle, if they overcome and, and they take over the control in the gut, that's where the thing starts going haywire.
When I was growing up, microbes were a bad thing. You didn't want to have microbes. And now, now we hear that there are good microbes and now you're talking about the balance. There are still bad ones, but good ones. And the balance of those two was a really important thing. Let's talk about how bad bacteria find their way to the brain. How do they get access?
So, as we discussed, they are kept within the bay or kept under control by good bacteria and also by other different immune systems in the body. We have different checkpoints, like we have different barriers or three different compartments, the gut and the blood and the brain. And we have barriers that separate out these compartments and these barriers are very tightly controlled, very good health cells tightly integrated with each other and they police that whole things what need to go across and what does not need to go across what we need to stop it within that compartment. If we have adverse environmental factors, or poor dietary habits and these bad gut bacteria overcome, they produce a lot of different molecules to communicate with each other. And they produce a lot of different molecules to take over the good bacteria. And these molecules, they can get across those barriers, and specifically if they can get into the brain (that's what we are researching), they can do a lot of different bad things in the brain. They can do that by hijacking this gut brain axis. And this compartmental thing is one pathway that they can get from gut to the blood and then from the blood to the brain. But there is also a direct highway that connects gut to the brain and that's our enteric nervous system. These are specific nerves or neurons, for example, vagus nerve, they're quite famous. It's a direct link between the gut and brain. This nerve system helps us in a lot of different daily tasks without us even knowing about it, like digestion and heart rate and respiration, and emptying the stomach. And these are kind of like a pathway for bidirectional communication. So, a lot of molecules go up and down across these highways and the bad gut bacteria can actually hijack it and they can put their stuff into this highway and they can send it across the brain.
It's a very, very nice explanation you have of a very complicated process, and I find it absolutely fascinating. So, you've spoken about how bad bacteria can be opportunistic pathogens and can trigger problems or enhance the progression of existing problems. How does all that work?
So, we are investigating bad gut bacteria in connection with dementia and Alzheimer disease. We are specifically working on Pseudomonas aeruginosa and E. coli and they are quite common, like a lot of school kids. They know about these bacteria. They are quite commonly studied in high school microbiology.
So, these bacteria produce some molecules which help to make biofilms around them. They kind of build a castle around them to protect their colonies and for their own survival and they keep surviving then until they get an opportunity to expand their castles and build more biofilms. These molecules are quite similar in terms of their structure and in terms of how they communicate. With some proteins which are not related to bacteria anyhow, they are produced in the brain to do some normal stuff in the brain, but they also aggregate in Alzheimer disease using the same mechanism as the nature that these bacteria use for these proteins to make their biofilms.
Based on this common similarity, if they can somehow see each other, or if those gut bacteria can send those proteins or aggregate of those proteins across the brain through using those highways. They can induce the aggregation of those normal, naive, working, innocent proteins, which we have in our brain that have nothing to do with the bacteria. But if they can be accessed by those bacterial proteins, they go haywire and, and they trigger the onset of the disease, or if there is already going on, that they can actually accelerate that whole process. And this is a concept, actually, we have seen that concept before in prion disease, whereby eating infected food that have those prion particles, they can actually go from gut to the brain, and they can induce the normal prion protein in the brain to start making aggregates in a similar way.
Are there interventions that can stop the pathogenic bacteria from in the gut that might in turn affect the brain?
We should focus more on preventive measures. We can focus on maintaining a good diversity within the gut of having or supporting those good bacteria in that fight and keeping them healthy and alive as we age. Because as we age over the period of life, we keep losing those good bacteria. If we can have all those good things of exercise, balanced sleep, and more importantly, good food and a balanced variety of food. Then we have a lot of different varieties to support that variety of gut bacteria in the gut.
So that's, I think, the most important preventive measure to keep that balance intact. But of course, in the future as a therapeutic intervention, we are moving towards developing microbiome therapies where we can modulate those compositions. If that composition is not in a very good situation, we can actually modulate that by using probiotics and prebiotic dietary factors or some microbial compositions like yogurt and a lot of other foods. We can modulate that to inoculate those bacteria which are missing in the gut and, and try to achieve that balance and, and that balance will accelerate the effectiveness of the medicine which we are taking for any other disease.
The advice we've heard from some of our other guests is to eat a diet rich in fruits and vegetables. You know, consume things, you mentioned yogurt, kefir, kombucha, sauerkraut, and things like that. Sound like they're very good for enhancing the health of the microbiome. Is there anything else beyond that that might be relevant for the brain in particular?
For brain health, there are some antioxidant foods. For example, we have Curcumin, and some senolytic compounds. We cannot call them drugs because they are kind of like a food supplements. They are available in any pharmacy and super stores by a lot of different names. Mostly these are polyphenolic compounds. They are usually available in green tea and in green tea extracts. They are quite well known for their healthy and antioxidant and anti-inflammatory effects. Research around the globe has shown that there are good effects directly on the brain by these polyphenolic compounds. So, these are green tea extracts, quercetin and, and some other galectin compounds.
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Dr Ibrahim Javed is currently an Enterprise Fellow (Senior Lecturer) and NHMRC Emerging Leadership Fellow at the Clinical and Health Sciences, University of South Australia. He is also an adjunct Senior Research Fellow at the Australian Institute for Bioengineering and Nanotechnology (AIBN), The University of Queensland. He completed his doctoral studies at the Monash Institute of Pharmaceutical Sciences in 2020 and postdoctoral research at AIBN, The University of Queensland. He joined the University of South Australia in 2023 where he is now directing the laboratory of Gut-Brain Axis, Aging and Therapeutics. Research in Javed’s lab focuses on the gut-brain axis and its implications for aging and Dementia. His research team is working to unfold the specific role of bad/pathogenic gut bacteria in the aging paradigms and Dementia associated with Alzheimer’s and Parkinson’s diseases. His team has discovered and published the molecular details of how bad bacteria in the gut can trigger a younger onset (aged under 65) and accelerate Dementia and how the brain can develop Dementia when fighting with microbial biofilms in the gut – the infectious etiology of Dementia. With this research trajectory, his vision is to develop a multifaceted therapeutic intervention for aging-associated diseases and Dementia.
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Food companies market their products in a great many ways. Connecting their brands and products to sports and major sporting events is one such way and is drawing a lot of attention now. The reason is that the Summer Olympics are underway, which trains attention on the relationship between the International Olympic Committee and its longest running sponsor. Coca Cola has been a sponsor of every Olympics since 1928. So, it's intuitively obvious why sponsorships would be important to the Olympics because They get lots of money in the door and it's reliable.
It's been happening since 1928. But let's talk about why this relationship is so important to companies, Coca Cola in particular, and what the public health impact of that might be. Today's guest, Dr. Marie Bragg, has contributed some of the key studies on this topic. She is Assistant professor at the NYU Grossman School of Medicine, where she also serves as director of diversity initiatives. She holds an affiliate faculty appointment in the marketing department at the NYU Stern School of business; directs the NYU food environment and policy research coalition; and she's also a Food Leaders Fellow at the Aspen Institute.
Interview Summary
It's really nice to talk to you about this because it's an important issue and not a lot of science has been done on this over the years and you've contributed a lot of it. Let's talk about the issue of sports marketing and can you tell us a little bit more about what that is broadly and what's, what are some of the forms it takes?
You just mentioned one of the main areas of sports marketing with sports sponsorships. And so that's where a company like Coca Cola partners with an organization like the Olympics. And really is paying for the rights to have that famous Coca Cola logo or its products to appear at sporting events or in commercials that are involving the Olympics.
In terms of how much of it there is we know, for example, the world cup is one of the most watched sporting events in the world, along with things like the Olympics. The world cup, for example, has 5 million viewers. And so that's a lot of exposure for these brands, but it's not Sports sponsorship partnerships like that, there's athlete endorsements, and those dates back as far as to 1934, as one example, when baseball player Lou Gehrig first appeared on the box of Wheaties cereals.
There's a special place that athletes have always had in our society, and I think it comes through with these sorts of partnerships. But if we fast forward to today, our lab has even seen these kinds of partnerships appear in video games. And so, Nintendo had M&M's a race car game a few years back, and NFL Madden, which is a popular video game even has things like the Snickers player of the game appear within the video game, just like real NFL games. What this means is that these pictures of brands and products are peppered throughout kids experiences when they're playing video games. And then finally, if, and probably for anyone who's, been in a supermarket, when there's a major sporting event going on, like the Super Bowl or March Madness, it appears on products too in supermarkets.
It's peppered throughout our everyday experience in ways we might not always see or appreciate if we're not paying attention.
Marie, I like to do sports trivia with some friends of mine, and you've just given me a great question about Lou Gehrig and the Wheaties box in the 1930s. So that's a nice benefit of this podcast. So aside from that, why sports? I mean, companies could attach themselves to lots of different things, but why did they choose sports and why is that such a valuable connection for them?
One factor ties back into what we were saying about visibility. If there are millions of people watching a sport event, it means that there's a lot of time for brands to be able to have high visibility for whatever they're endorsing or sponsoring in that moment. On another level, I think on a deeper level, our society has a special relationship with sports and professional athletes.
Professional athletes are their own sort of unique category of celebrities that people love to follow and admire. That means that when a brand associates themselves with a sports organization like the Olympics or a professional athlete, they're buying into a special idea of what it means to be cool, to be fun, and to feel good about to feel good about the brand because when people are watching sports, they're excited.
If we think of other categories of life where there are maybe a high number of viewers to a specific televised event, like a presidential debate, that we don't see a lot of sponsorships around that. And maybe it doesn't evoke the same feelings that a sporting event does.
I'm expecting that this kind of relationship or attachments or symbolism of the sponsorship of sports might be especially powerful for children. I know if you ask kids what they want to be when they grow up, a lot of them will say they want to be a baseball player or basketball player, football player, something like that. Does that make sense?
I remember reading an article once that said, a dad was playing catch with his kid, and had spent all these hours with his kid working on pitching. And the dad made the point in the article, my kid doesn't want to grow up and be me as a baseball player. He wants to grow up and be ARod.
And so, this idea that we can spend all the time that we want with our kids and they still hold these celebrity athletes on such a pedestal is something that I think ties into why this is valuable for companies. It's kids who are engaged in sports or attending sporting events who are the next generation of consumers for these products. If they can get the attention and the brand loyalty of these children early on in these positive, exciting environments, it helps them secure the next generation of purchasers.
We'll talk about how important brand loyalty is in a minute, but let's talk about how valuable these connections are to the company. I guess one indication of that is how much a company like Coca Cola is willing to pay to be a sponsor of something like the Olympics. What kind of numbers do you know about in that context?
The companies don't usually disclose the exact numbers, but in 2008, NPR published an article that estimated that Coca Cola spent about 70 million to sponsor the Beijing Olympics. If we think about it, that's stunning given sponsoring an event is just one part of their massive advertising machine. More recently the Wall Street Journal estimated that Coca-Cola and a really large dairy company in China partnered and spent a combined, estimated $2 billion with a B, $2 billion for a 12-year Olympic sponsorship deal that will run through 2032. It's really incredible to think about that as just one slice of what they're doing, but with such a massive amount of money attached to it.
It really sort of begs the question what they are get out of it and what do they see as the value. I know there are branding opportunities, and again, we'll come back to that in a minute, but there's also sort of this goodwill part of it, isn't there. The Olympics are a great thing. No reason to question that. The fact that a company like Coca Cola would sponsor a good thing probably gives them a good company glow, doesn't it?
My colleague Bridget Kelly in Australia did a study on this topic of sort of the glow that sponsorship produces. In her study, she showed that about 68 percent of kids in the sample could remember the sports sponsor and thought the sponsors were cool and generous. And they wanted to sort of pay back the favor by purchasing the products of that sponsor. There is something really special to to that relationship in the minds of kids.
Wow. That's an impressive finding. So, speaking of findings, you've done some research on these sports sponsorships yourself. Can you tell us a little bit about what you've done and what you found?
Some of our work in this area has documented how food and beverage companies associate themselves with sports on the sponsorship side. Athletes and supermarkets with product partnerships. And in one of our studies that tied into sports sponsorships, we looked at the 10 major sports organizations that had a lot of viewers. So, things like the NFL, the NBA, and then we wanted to categorize what kinds of groupings, the sponsors belonged to an automotive brand. Ford motors was one of the largest categories. But food wasn't very far behind. We saw about 19 percent of sponsors were associated with food and beverage brands, and it was for mostly unhealthy items.
In the sports sponsorships, we're not. Seeing a lot of water being featured. It's a lot of sugary beverages you know, chips and things like that. We're not seeing much fresh fruit. And then when we did the same thing with athlete endorsements, one of the things that stood out about that study, which looked at a hundred athletes to get a sense of what are they endorsing and how healthy is this stuff and how much are people seeing it. The most striking finding for me from that study was that 93 percent of the beverages that were endorsed by professional athletes were sugary drinks. And we know that athletes need to drink a lot of water to sort of fuel themselves. And maybe sometimes they do need some sort of sports drinks for long workout days, but we saw a lot of sodas in the mix too and the other thing is that most kids don't need lots of sports drinks in their diet, but that's what is sort of being promoted through these through these endorsements, and so that really stood out to me about that study.
We also in a couple of these studies found that young people are often seeing more ads for this than adults. It's not even though it may be sort of targeting general audiences. A lot of times young people are really seeing a lot of these, including the forms of ads that pop up on YouTube because we know kids are really into social media. It's really across the board of all of our research. We find mostly unhealthy products being promoted through these partnerships with sports.
I remember back over the years that this issue comes up in the press occasionally and athletes get called out, specific athletes will sometimes get called out for promoting these kinds of foods. And, and I remember there being a couple of cases, although I don't remember the names of the athletes involved, where they've refused to do this kind of thing and they've made public statements about that. What's your recollection about that?
We were really excited one time with our athlete endorsement study that came out a couple of years later. Brita water filters issued a press release and I remember getting a lot of messages about it telling me to go and look at what was posted online. Brita had cited our study that most beverages promoted by athletes are sugary beverages.
And that's why we're so excited to partner with Steph Curry to promote Brita water filters. I framed that press release and shared it with all our team members who worked on those projects because it was an example of choosing a healthy beverage over some of these sugary drinks that are so commonly promoted.
So maybe there will come a day when LeBron James or athletes like that start advertising cucumbers or radishes or something.
And I wish cucumber producers had the same budgets as these sugary drink brands because it's really hard for some of the healthy stuff to compete with some of these major fast food and sugary drink companies.
For sure. Let's talk about the issue of branding, why a company like Coca Cola wants its brand image, that famous Coke logo out there in front of as many eyes as possible. Give me just a minute if you will. And I'd like to describe something that I've heard. Sort of observed over the years. It's my anecdotal impression that if you ask random people, are you a Coke or a Pepsi person? You'll get an immediate and definitive response. People know whether they're a Coke or a Pepsi person. But if you do research, you find that people can't very often tell the difference between Coke and Pepsi. And, going back as, as long as 1949, there are scientists who have done these kinds of studies on whether consumers can distinguish those two beverages, doing blind taste tests. A typical finding is that people aren't any more accurate than chance. And there was a fascinating brain scan study done much more recently, of course. When Coke and Pepsi were given to people and they didn't know which they were receiving, the brain scan showed similar brain activity for the two beverages, again, suggesting that people can't distinguish the difference. But when people knew they were drinking either Coke or Pepsi, there was a brain activity advantage. For Coca Cola, which of course is all about more marketing, bigger company, that kind of thing, I'm assuming. So based on this, it looked like Coke hadn't won the taste war, but the branding war. So why in the heck would people feel so strongly that they can tell the difference between these beverages when they probably can't?
Now my own two-bit theory on this is that no one wants to feel like they're a pawn of marketing. So, it'd be hard to admit that they favor one brand over another because then they would feel manipulated. They must believe in their own minds there's an objective difference. My theorizing aside, tell us about the power of a brand as opposed to a product and how the Olympics is such a golden opportunity for the Coca Cola brand.
When we think about a brand, it's really a combination of feelings, ideas, and the emotions that we tie into what it means to be part of that brand. And as people, and especially as young people, for let's say teenagers, they’re in an identity development stage where it's important for them to be adopting brands that are important to them, in part to distinguish themselves from their parents, to fit in with peers, and to start to have a sense of who they are as a person.
And one of the ways to do that is to associate with what you like for music, but another piece is brand. So, are you a Coca Cola or a Pepsi person? A Nike or Adidas person. That comes with all sorts of adjectives about what it means to be on one side or the other. When we think about Coca Cola as a brand linking up with the Olympics, it's an opportunity to potentially borrow, not only get their brand out there, but potentially borrow from the brand of the Olympics as well.
In our field, there's something called brand image transfer. This is the idea that when two companies or organizations partner together, the brand feelings we have about one might bleed over into the other and vice versa. It’s one of the things that's always fascinated me about this topic, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on it too, is this idea that the sports may have a sort of health piece to their brand identity. So, the Olympics have people at the peak of their, their sport. And my question has always been, what does that do to the way people feel about Coke in terms of its healthfulness? And is there some brand image transfer that's happening back and forth that's particularly beneficial for Coca Cola because of the health component?
You reminded me of something. Tell me if you think this is an interesting parallel. When I was a boy in public high school growing up in Indiana, I don't think there were any soft drink machines in my school, maybe one in the teacher's lounge or something that I never saw, of course, but there wasn't much. And then when my son, many decades later, was a student in a school, public high school in Connecticut, he and I walked around the school and counted the number of soft drink machines, and he was of course embarrassed to be walking around the school with his dad. But aside from that, I think we found something like 13 or 14 or 15 machines. I don't remember the exact number, but it was striking. And I've heard people speculate that the companies don't care that much about what's being sold in those machines because. It's not a huge profit center for them and they must split the profits with the school somehow, but it's all about the branding. And even the students who aren't buying anything from the machines walk past them probably many times a day. So, what's getting imprinted doesn't have much to do potentially with. A specific type of product, but it's just that company's main image. Does that make sense? And why those school sponsorships have been so important?
It does, and it's really, there's really an emphasis on wanting a sort of 360 level of involvement in young people's lives because if a brand can get themselves in front of kids at school, at a sporting event, in a movie, in a video game, on social media, they're immersing themselves in a way that allows the brand to keep itself top of mind.
And that's what starts to get people to be aware of it, build brand loyalty, reach for the product because it's, they, with so many ads, the ads are all competing for attention but being immersed in schools is just one aspect of that idea of having involvement in as many areas of kids’ lives as possible.
I think in addition to all the machines, there were tables outside that had. Coca Cola umbrellas, and then the football stadium had a scoreboard that had Coca Cola that featured prominently on it. It was like complete corporate capture. It was amazing how many exposures the typical student in that high school in Brantford, Connecticut would have had. And that's just in school. I mean, think about all the other things added to that. That's amazing, isn't it?
One of the things that interested me about this work was because when I played soccer and ran cross country and track as a kid, everything. There were so many instances where everything was sponsored. There were so many instances where unhealthy food products were linked with sport. So, we were the Snicker state champions of the state of Florida for soccer. I was a Wendy's high school nominee, not a winner. Let's be clear. And every brand. I have so many patches at home with fast food or sugary drink logos on them, right alongside.
And then probably not coincidentally, I remember when I was a young kid, and we were painting a piece of wood in the backyard. And I drew the Coca Cola logo with a soccer ball and a basketball next to it. Looking back, first, what an odd kid I must have been to draw Coca Cola’s logo, but to your point, I was really immersed in it and Coke was top of mind.
The kind of sports sponsorships that you talked about being exposed to when you were young. That kind of thing's happening outside the U.S. a lot too, isn't it?
It is. So, the sports sponsorship outside the U.S. – one of the big ones that comes to mind if McDonald’s sponsorship of the World Cup. We see a lot of international presence with brands, whether it’s through social media, and the way they sort of take local culture and tailor it to sports marketing. I remember being on a trip to Trinidad with my family. My mom's family is from Trinidad. And there was a Coca Cola bottling plant, I think it was. And alongside the perimeter was a painted fence and it had the Coca Cola logo and the Trinny flag and then a painting of a soccer ball and steel drums. So, there was this infusion of the culture alongside the Coca Cola logo. And that really, I think, accelerated my interest in understanding how these brands are capitalizing on the good feelings that people have towards their own culture.
It can be challenging to do anything about this and challenging, especially you regulate advertising in the U.S. because of protections provided for commercial speech through the first amendment. What can be done about the ads promoted through these unhealthy sports sponsorships?
One of the things I think we need more research on is the extent to which these kinds of ads might be contributing to a sort of misunderstanding about the health profiles of products. And so, I think that would help us better understand for kids, do they start to really think that some of these sugary drink products are healthier than water, for example.
That's just a random example but I think that will help us understand what's at stake when it comes to the impression that it's making on young people. And there's a little bit of work in this area, but more is needed. And then I think too about how as a society, there's policy regulations to it too, but that's very hard to do because of commercial speech protections. I will say one of our colleagues Nick Freudenberg has talked about how we should have an open mind with whether there's a possibility to move the needle on commercial speech protections. And so that's something I'd love to keep exploring with people on what that could look like it, and if it was possible to any extent.
And then the other thing that's always been on my mind is the idea that for some products being associated with and became a public relations liability. If we think about the way professional athletes used to endorse tobacco products and would be standing in their uniform with a cigarette in their mouth. Then that sort of became uncool. Not good for their brand. Not good for their look, and they moved away from it.
Will the same thing happen to sugary drinks and junk food partnerships. And I think sometimes we see glimmers of that. There was the famous video, years ago after a soccer game, when one of the world's most famous soccer players pushed away a sugary beverage and said agua in response. And it affected the market shares at that moment. I think there are instances like that, that we can think about in terms of getting some momentum behind the way athletes themselves identify with these products.
In that context, do you think parents could be an important advocacy voice? Let's just say that parents rose up and said to the local high school, we don't want Coca Cola stuff blasted all over our school. And they're pushing that. Coca Cola retains the right, because of the First Amendment to market its products, but local schools would have the right not to sign contracts and therefore deprive the company of those kind of marketing opportunities. Do you think parents might ever feel mobilized enough incensed enough to do something like that?
I think parents are a key factor in this issue of sports marketing to kids because companies care a lot about what parents think. Even though kids have a ton of pester power, where they nag their parents to purchase things, parents are also in many cases, especially for young kids, the gatekeepers of all these purchases. Companies know not to make parents too angry about something because of the risk of not purchasing their products. I think if parents got vocal about it, whether it's on social media or by getting involved in petitions that might be going around that's one way to get companies to start paying attention to these things because I think it getting them out of schools, for example, seems to me to be a common sense start to it and but many parents might not be thinking of this in the way, that how deeply it might be affecting their diet, their kids diets.
Bio
Dr. Marie Bragg is an Assistant Professor at the NYU Grossman School of Medicine where she also serves as the Director of Diversity Initiatives. She holds an affiliate faculty appointment in the Marketing Department at the NYU Stern School of Business, and directs the NYU Food Environment and Policy Research Coalition, which includes 56 faculty who study food and sustainability across 14 departments in 8 schools at NYU. Dr. Bragg’s research examines unhealthy food marketing practices that target youth and communities of color. Her current NIH-funded grants assess how advertising on social media affects the preferences and food choices of adolescents. Dr. Bragg is a Food Leaders Fellow at the Aspen Institute, and has testified on three public policies in New York City that aimed to create a healthier food environment. Since 2008, she has mentored more than 100 students, postdoctoral fellows, and junior faculty members. Dr. Bragg earned her PhD in clinical psychology from Yale University.
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Today we're talking about who has access to full-service supermarkets in America's cities, suburbs, small towns and rural communities. According to The Reinvestment Fund's "2023 Limited Supermarket Access Analysis Report," 8.5% of people in the US live in areas with limited access to full-service supermarkets. This means that families must travel further to get fresh foods, and it creates a barrier to adequate nutrition. This is the 10th year The Reinvestment Fund has published the "Supermarket Access Report," which provides data and context about grocery store access across the country. Here to discuss the latest figures is policy and analyst Michael Norton.
Interview Summary
This is a really interesting and kind of nuanced topic, so I'm happy we can talk about it in some detail. Why don't we just start off with kind of a broad question. What do we know now about areas of limited supermarket access in the US?
Kelly, I think the big thing to take away at the very beginning is that the share of people living in places that would be considered low access is roughly the same as it's been over the past 10 years. We have about 8.5% of the population living in low-access areas across the country. That's pretty consistent to what it's been for over a decade. But what's important is that how low-access areas are distributed across the country varies quite a bit. And where they exist, the density of the populations where they exist, really informs the kinds of interventions that are available for addressing these needs. These vary considerably in different parts of the country and at different geographic scales. And what I mean by that is suburban areas, rural areas, and then some of the most remote areas across the country. So we do have a sort of consistent number or share of people. The actual number has gone up a little bit because the population has continued to increase. They become distributed in different ways that follow different kinds of development patterns, on the one hand. But then also places where you end up getting patterns of residential and racial segregation in more developed parts of the country.
It's so interesting. So, given that the average has stayed essentially the same over the 10 years you've been doing the reports, have there been pressures pulling in either direction that might have changed over the years? So, for example, are there pressures that are making access to full-service supermarkets less likely? Are they pulling out of some places, for example? And might that offset by some positive developments in other areas? So, while the average stays the same, the contours look different?
I think the way to think about that is that we see a lot of expansion of low-access areas in the big metro areas that are expanding the fastest. So, the biggest increases in populations living with limited access are in big state in the South and out west in places like Arizona, Nevada, Texas, where you have these large metros that are growing at a really rapid rate. And the reason for that is that oftentimes residential development will show up before commercial development. So, in those kinds of places, food retail is trailing behind residential development. And probably those places are going to be well served by the time we update this analysis again in four or five years because of what those development patterns look like, right? So, when you're building more houses in more urban and remote areas, there's still folks who are first in buying out in those places. They're still going to have to go a long way to get their groceries for a few years until supermarket identifies this as a place where there's going to be enough demand for us to put one of our Krogers or Targets or Walmarts or what have you. But we've also seen, and this is more common in urban places, is the expansion of these low-access areas that have smaller populations, right? And so these are places with between 1,000 and 5,000 residents where folks are still having to go disproportionately far to get access to a full-service grocery store. Sometimes this is because stores have pulled out in these places because of limited demand, historically. And that limited demand is mostly because folks don't have as much income to spend on their groceries, right? And we see these little areas popping up within metro areas and even in some close-in suburbs and places across the country. And so you have sort of these bigger LSA areas, which have at least 5,000 residents on the outer edges of a lot of metros and in some within the cities, but mostly within the cities. It's these smaller, limited access, low population areas. And this differentiation of the type of low-access area is something that we introduced in this update to our analysis that previously wasn't available. It provided a really nice nuance to understanding what limited access to supermarkets looks like going forward, both within urban places, suburban places, and in some of these really remote parts of the country.
So, based on this research, what does it tell us about the future of insecurity in the United States?
I think what it really tells us is that it depends on where you live and what kind of community you live in and what that's going to look like. I think the ability to provide a little bit more nuance around who has access and when they have limited access, what about their community is going to inform the response to ensuring that folks are able to get what they need. In places where they are these traditional sorts of limited supermarket access areas where you have at least 5,000 people, they can become pretty good candidates for operating a full-service store, right? But when you think about urban parts of the country where you've had central business districts or neighborhoods sort of hollowing out in different places and local supermarket is closed, but there aren't enough people there living to support a full-service store, different kinds of interventions are required, right? And then in these really remote parts of the country where you don't have very many residents, but you have at least a thousand, but people are living a long way away from each other, how do you serve those places? Because some of them, these are very small towns, right? And there are people who have been living there and if the grocery store closed, then they have to drive 35-40 miles to the next town, right? That becomes a real challenge for their general way of life. I think really thinking about the future of food access and food insecurity in this country really has to have a geographic nuance to it in thinking about the appropriate responses that are going to meet the needs of people living in different parts of the country.
So, how does your study inform investments do address food insecurity?
Reinvestment Fund has a very active retail portfolio, both on our lending side, and Reinvestment Fund is also the national fund manager for USDA's Healthy Food Finance Initiative. These two avenues through which we make loans to increase access to fresh food and through USDA's HFFI program are opportunities to innovate. The USDA's Healthy Food Finance Initiative is both a grant-making and a lending program that is designed to identify innovative responses to access to fresh food in these different types of areas. So, we're able to use the results of these analyses to identify places where you can align the kinds of programs that people are proposing. Whether that's a small format store in a city where their primary supermarket has closed, whether it's a mobile market that is serving folks who live very far distances from their nearest food retailer, or whether it's setting up a aggregation site that is not just food retail but sometimes is attached to a healthcare center or a hospital where people are also making regular trips. These become opportunities for us to support innovative approaches and also try out different things. Once you start to get some information from successful programs that are coming out of the grant program, as they become investible and scalable at a store level when you become ready to take on debt to expand your operation or open a store in a place that typical operators aren't willing to go.
So, let me ask you a question about the Healthy Food Financing Initiative. With politics being so partisan these days, is this a partisan issue as well, or is there bipartisan support for things like this?
This is the good news part of access to fresh food. It really is a bipartisan issue. Healthy Food Finance Initiative was created under the Obama Administration, was expanded under the Trump Administration and has been expanded even more under the Biden Administration. Each subsequent farm bill has expanded the capital available for the Healthy Food Finance Initiative, with the goal to try and figure out how do we meet the food access needs of everybody in this country in a way that provides a signal to private market operators that they can be successful in these places.
That really is a bit of good news, and I'm really happy to hear that. But I also wanted to ask you, are there options aside from full-service supermarkets to help address some of these matters you're discussing?
Absolutely, absolutely. And these are things like smaller format stores, almost like a corner store but that operates like a healthy food market. And these are really appropriate in places where there are limited access, low population, and sort of filling in pockets inside urban communities and close-in suburbs. There are mobile market options that are popping up in different places. Food aggregation hubs that will be cited within the center of a low-access area where people can come to a central location and having purchased food online that shows up and then people can come and pick it up. There's expanding delivery options to more remote parts of the country. So, there is a wide diversity of models that are proliferating beyond just bricks and mortar traditional grocery stores. It's really the job of HFFI to seed these initiatives, identify the ones that are doing really well, and then work with the folks who created them and then others to scale them down the road into places that are not served by food retailers.
I think you've helped answer the next question I was going to ask, which is how does this research help policy makers and practitioners think about addressing food insecurity in their community? There's a fair amount of tailoring that could go on where you're trying to meet the needs of a specific community.
That's right. And I think one of the things that's important to keep in mind is the role that financial institutions like Reinvestment Fund play in making this possible. So, Reinvestment Fund is a community development financial institution, which is best understood as like a nonprofit bank. And these exist across the country and are more or less active in different markets, but they're really focused on working in a very deliberate, hands-on way with our borrowers to create access to fresh food in places where it's not going to be easy, right? Because if it was easy, all the big food retailers would be there, right? So, we have to be patient. You have to find someone who's willing to take a chance operating the store, to help them develop their business plan, help them identify all of the ins and outs that go with standing up a food retail business, and then work with them throughout the process of them sort of getting access to capital and making their business work. And that work is a lot more work than what is required to finance a new grocery store that is run by Target or run by Walmart, Krogers or something like that. This is a critical role that the CDFI industry is playing and increasingly recognized at the federal level as a resource for deploying public subsidies through the private market into the hands of operators who are going to make it work in places where traditional food retailers and capital just won't go.
Let me ask a big-picture question. and this is a little complicated in my own mind. So, we're sort of defaulting in a way to the idea that full-service supermarkets providing access to such things for more people is a good outcome. And from a social justice point of view, it's unquestionably true that people who live in different sets of financial circumstances should still have access to things that people in better financial circumstances have. But in terms of nutritional outcome, having access to a full-service supermarket brings a lot more than just the healthy foods. And in today's modern full-service supermarket, the highly processed, less healthy options must outnumber the healthy ones 10 to 1, 20 to 1, 50 to 1? I have no idea what the number is, but it's enormous. And so, providing government support and financial incentives for a big store to come in is providing access to a lot more than healthy foods may have adverse nutritional outcomes rather than positive ones, unless you're just sort of agnostic about the type of food that people are getting access to, that any food is better than nothing if you have food insecurity. But I wonder how one might address that. And whether one could think about providing resources that were structured differently to encourage smaller stores, for example, that focus on more healthy options and fewer of the less healthy ones. And then you might get the social justice part addressed at the same time you're having a better nutritional outcome.
Kelly, that's such a good question, and one that we wrangle with all the time. Because there is actually fairly limited evidence to suggest that access to fresh food is going to lead people to make healthier choices about what they consume. One of the sort of operating assumptions is that in the absence of access, you're not going to make healthy choices. And once there is at least access, the possibility for making healthier choices increases from, zero to something, whatever it is that is going to be motivating individuals how they go about making choices for the foods that they consume. And it is a very tricky relationship that folks in the food industry grapple with all the time as well in the medical profession. I think from a grant-making standpoint and a financing standpoint, Reinvestment Fund's position is always that whoever is receiving support through our programs or from our lending capital is offering a selection that meets what you would consider healthy food retail options, right? That there is an assortment of fresh fruits and vegetables, fresh produce, fresh meats and dairy, in that also with the understanding that almost all food retailers are also going to offer less healthy options. That is a constant tension within the field. And figuring out how to encourage behavioral change by consumers is sort of beyond the ability of HFFI to move. What we can do is ensure that the organizations and the individuals who we support are offering a variety of healthy options for the patrons that are coming into their locations.BIO
Michael Norton, Ph.D., serves as Chief Policy Analyst at Reinvestment Fund, and supports all research related to Reinvestment Fund’s organizational goals and mission. In this role Dr. Norton works closely with a range partners, including small non-profit organizations, local and national philanthropies, private companies, colleges and universities, school districts, federal, state, and city governments and agencies. His work leverages nearly a decade of experience as researcher and project director to develop data driven solutions – solutions that meet the unique needs of Reinvestment Fund and our key stakeholders in the public and private sectors. Dr. Norton completed his doctoral studies in the Sociology Department at Temple University, where his research examined the relationship between secondary mortgage market activity and neighborhood change in the Philadelphia region at the turn of the 21st century. Prior to joining Reinvestment Fund in 2015, Dr. Norton served as a Senior Research Associate at Research for Action in Philadelphia. In this role, he led and co-led a range of mixed-methods evaluations of educational reform initiatives and policies at the local and state levels.
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Nonprofit organizations can play a very important role in building healthy communities by providing services that contribute to community stability, social mobility, public policy, and decision-making. Today we're speaking with Kathy Higgins, CEO of the Alliance for Healthier Generation. The Alliance is a nonprofit organization, a well-known one at that, that promotes healthy environments so that young people can achieve lifelong good health.
Interview Summary
Kathy, it's really wonderful to reconnect that you and I interacted some when you were in North Carolina and head of the Blue Cross and Blue Shield of North Carolina Foundation, and then you got called upon to be the CEO of the Alliance, a really interesting position. It's really wonderful to be able to talk to you again. Let's start maybe with a little bit of the history of the Alliance for a Healthier Generation. Can you tell us a bit about how it got started and over the years, how it's evolved?
We've existed for almost 19 years now. We celebrate our 20-year anniversary next year. And we were started by two vital public health forces: the Clinton Foundation and President Clinton and also the American Heart Association. They came together 20 years ago and began discussing childhood obesity and what could a leading public health organization do to really work in systems change across the country at a local level. It is those two organizations that we look to as our founders and who helped us advance our work.
It's a time flies story because it seems like just yesterday that the Alliance was created. There was a lot of excitement at the time for it, and over the work. It's done some really interesting things. So, in today's iteration of the Alliance, what are some of the main areas of focus?
As I mentioned, we are a systems change organization. What we do is take a continuous improvement approach to advancing children's health. So, we are working typically in schools or after school time and certainly in communities to work on policy and practice change that are about promoting physical activity and healthy eating. And then addressing critical child health and adolescent health issues, which as we know, were exacerbated with the pandemic. Things like food access and social connectedness are just so important. Quality sleep, which our children are not getting enough of, or other things like vaping and tobacco sensation and on time vaccinations. Another thing that we know is that the pandemic had a dramatic impact on families and children on time vaccinations. So, this is the work that we do and working with the policy and practice change so that there there can be opportunity for healthy environments for the children.
I think most everybody would probably agree that the targets that you're working on, healthy diet, physical activity, smoking, vaping habits and things like that are really important. But people might be a little less familiar with what you mean by addressing systems. Could you give some examples of what you mean by that?
Right. What we know is that in United States, in fact, every public school must have a wellness policy and areas that need to be addressed. But what we'll do is work with the school in making sure that those policies are best suited for the families, the community, and the school, and what they want to do to support the health of children from a collaborative and supportive role. What we know is that we can create great change when that occurs. We work with more than 56,000 schools across the United States, and one of the things that we know is that our approach is really reflected in the America's Healthiest Schools recognition program each year.
It's interesting to hear you talk about schools as an example of system change. And boy, working with 56,000 schools is pretty darn impressive. And it allows for out-sized influence of an organization like yours because if you can affect things like these school wellness policies and that gets multiplied across a ton of schools, it can really affect a lot of children.
Exactly. We will work school to school, but we also work in districts and that allows us then to make even a bigger impact in the number of schools that we're reaching with these changes. It also brings the community together because then they're all operating under the same principles or the same focus areas of the work that they're committed to doing. What we do see is that we're able to assist them in implementing what are typically best practices in all sorts of topic areas. Whether it's strengthening the social emotional health and learning environment for the children, but also focusing on staff wellness. The whole notion, Kelly, of putting your oxygen mask on first before assisting others is something that has been incredibly important to us. We've certainly been very supported to do that work from a variety of funders. The other area that we've been able to make great strides in is this increasing of family and community engagement, which has been really significant for us. We've been honored to have Kohl's as a major supporter of our work. Their investment and then reinvestment and then once again, another reinvestment, really helped us engage with strategies that focused on increasing family wellbeing. So really then our three-legged stool becomes the school environment, the family environment, and the community environment, which we find is just really effective.
So can we talk a little bit more about the community engagement and why is it important and how do you go about making it happen and what sort of impacts do you see it having?
I think I may have mentioned already that we do use a continuous improvement model that we find is just really effective for when we're working in the school or school district level. It allows us to serve in a role of being a convener and bringing people together. What we know now is certainly after COVID that schools are no longer for walls of learning. They have a central role to the health of the community because of the services that they're providing or the services that families need them to provide. So, when we're working with a school, we're able to convene the right people that are in their community. They may be in the same zip code, they may be down the street, they may be across town. But they haven't come together around the same table to start to address issues that they may have prioritized that are impacting a host of things. It could be impacting attendance rates, it could be impacting academic achievement. And we're really able to work with them to dismantle the barriers to what would lead to success. To give a couple examples in North Carolina, in fact, we work in both Bertie and Roberson County and on vaccination adherence, and also making sure that the children that may have deferred their well-child visits or their age-appropriate vaccinations during COVID that we've worked with convening just as mentioned, the right players, the right people in the community to come together. And in both those counties we've been able to have nearly 250 students that are healthy back to school and fully vaccinated as they should be and that they deserve to be and as their families wanted them to be, but the time the resources just wasn't there or convenient enough to do. And so, this really has allowed the community to have a great win. It's a great example of just the importance of sitting down together, looking at the data and thinking about how we can all make a difference.
Kathy, what you've reminded me of as you've been talking about this is that there's sort of a sweet spot that you've attained. If all you paid attention to were best practices, you'd say, well, okay, everything that works in these other places is going to work in your place, which of course might only be partially true. But if you only work locally, then you'd miss the opportunity to be learning what's happening elsewhere that might help you. And you're kind of at the intersection of these things, aren't you?
Thank you for saying that. That's exactly where we sit - at that intersection. Sometimes we feel in a continuous improvement model that there's a no wrong door, so to speak. And so, when we're engaging with a school, school community, a community, or even a school district, that we're able to sit with them in proximity and talk through what are the issues that they're facing, where their children are most at risk, and what is it that they are working to prioritize. Because we also know that if we can move them through a process and achieve success and really answer the question, is anyone better off? So to really be outcomes focused. Then, what we know is that there are other opportunities for improvement that we can continue that work. Part of the success here is just pausing and celebrating what good work this community is doing together. This school is doing together.
Tell us if you will, a little bit about how the work of the Alliance is funded, because I know you draw support from a number of quarters. You mentioned Kohl's, but overall how is the work funded?
Thanks for asking. You know, one of the things I did mention to start with is the Clinton Foundation and President Clinton, specifically with his leadership supporting the health of children and families and the Heart Association. But the significant financial supporter and strategic supporter at the time was the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. They really put significant resources behind the creation of Healthier Generation. But the other thing that they did is put their brightest minds and public health leadership behind the creation of why we would exist and what would be the pillars of our organization that would serve well to make a difference. So having a technology backbone, which allows us to have an action center. Meaning that any school, any teacher, any administrator, any parent can access our training and our tools for free. Through our website, we have marketing and communication that follow best practices for how to create change and how to communicate change to the audiences that we're reaching out to our subject matter expertise and then measurement and evaluation. And it's this ability that really attracted funders like Kaiser Permanente. While schools have been central to our work, this digital platform really allowed our action center to help and support this access of no cost assessment tools, trainings, resources. Kaiser Permanente has been a key supporter of our work since 2013. I mentioned Kohl's as well, as such a significant supporter allowing us to reach 10 million families since the inception of our work together with them. Del Monte Foods is another significant supportive of ours. They allow us to implement the America's Healthiest School Awards program. I would be lost if I didn't mention Mackenzie Scott. She wanted to invest in whole child health equity and we were identified as an organization that was worthy of her funding and definitely was the largest single gift from a philanthropist that we've ever received. So, we were so grateful for that, that call called.
That's wonderful affirmation. No question. It's nice to hear you have such a broad base of funding because that's a sign that people are thinking you're doing things right. I'm not sure I'm in a the best position to be completely objective about this because over the years I've received funding from through Robert Wood Johnson Foundation for a number of projects. But it's amazing how often their imprint comes up when you talk about organizations that are doing creative work and you go back to the beginnings and Robert Wood Johnson was often there doing these things when nobody else was. And it's really wonderful to see the long-term consequence of that investment that they made. Well, let's talk about some new work you're doing in the schools. I know that a relatively new effort of the Alliance involves the expansion of resources in terms of a playbook in the schools. Can you explain what that's all about?
Oh yes. This was really born out of the pandemic environment and our need and the schools need to know better guidance on the work that we can do to create healthier environments when so many demands are being put on us. We all know what happened to the food service staff of any school. They became the food service staff of the community during the COVID years. Kohl's wanted us to partner with selected communities across the country to implement what would be really a new family engagement strategy to support children's health and developing. What we call and refer to as our Healthy at Home playbook for schools to forge stronger relationships with families. We know that when schools and the families are working together and schools are understanding what families need, and families are able to be in a position to be heard and communicate what their needs are, that together they can really make a difference. We've been pretty excited the collection of resources. They're both in English and in Spanish on topics such as nutrition, staying active, mental wellbeing, social emotional health and stress and we've been pretty excited to have that implemented.
I could see how you'd be excited about that. So, let me ask a final question. The word policy has come up several times. Is it part of the purview of the alliance to argue for policy changes? You mentioned schools. So, for example, would the Alliance be in a position to argue for tighter nutrition standards in schools or even something beyond the schools, like something dealing with food marketing directed at kids or front of package labeling or really anything like that?
We stay out of the advocacy and lobbying lane, but we do focus on the small P policy change in schools so that we're helping schools manage their policies. But the area where we've had success is in creating a difference. We had a great partnership many years ago with McDonald's and worked with them on changes that they were committed to making in their healthy meals. And what we know is when McDonald's makes a big shift, so goes the market. Our body of work was the removing of sugary sodas from the menu board so that you would have to opt for that versus low fat milk or water and adding the sliced apples. I think that might be one of our hallmarks of the work that we've done over the years: sliced apples, carrot sticks, the GO-GURT that was being offered. And then removing either the higher sodium or higher fat items from the leaderboards so that they have to ask for them in order to have them as part of the Happy Meal. That was some significant work that we were able to do. And the other work we did in our early years was getting the three soda manufacturers, whether Pepsi and Coke and Dr. Pepper to agree to come together and remove sugar sodas from our public schools and replace it with a better price point of water. And it's something I know President Clinton is very proud of because I think a 90% of schools were on board with that work after about a three-year period. I think it really made a difference.
BioKathy Higgins, chief executive officer (CEO) of the Alliance for a Healthier Generation, is a national expert on health care and philanthropy, having previously served as the president and CEO of the Blue Cross and Blue Shield of North Carolina Foundation. Higgins leads Healthier Generation’s team of nearly 100 professional staff across the nation working to make the healthy choice the easy choice for all children. Prior to taking on the role of Healthier Generation CEO in January 2019, Higgins spent more than 30 years at Blue Cross Blue Shield of North Carolina, where her roles span leading public health engagement, corporate communications, community relations, and corporate affairs. In 2000, Higgins led the launch of the Blue Cross NC Foundation. As president and CEO of the Blue Cross NC Foundation, Higgins led unprecedented growth, including the strategic investment of more than $150 million into North Carolina communities through more than 1,000 grants to improve the health of vulnerable populations, support physical activity and nutrition programs, and help nonprofit groups improve their organizational capacity. Higgins was also a significant advocate in Blue Cross NC’s early adoption of Healthier Generation’s decade-long innovative insurance benefit program, designed to encourage clinicians to extend weight management and obesity prevention services to kids and families. Higgins holds a bachelor’s degree in education from West Virginia Wesleyan College and completed her master’s work in community health education from Virginia Tech. She currently resides in Raleigh, North Carolina and is the mother to twin boys.
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Is it possible to decarbonize agriculture and make the food system more resilient to climate change? Today, I'm speaking with agricultural policy expert Peter Lehner about his climate neutral agriculture ideas and the science, law and policy needed to achieve these ambitious goals. Lehner is an environmental lawyer at Earthjustice and directs the organization's Sustainable Food and Farming Program.
Transcript
How does agriculture impact the climate? And I guess as important as that question is why don't more people know about this?
It's unfortunate that more people don't know about it because Congress and other policy makers only really respond to public pressure. And there isn't enough public pressure now to address agriculture's contribution to climate change. Where does it come from? Most people think about climate change as a result of burning fossil fuels, coal and oil, and the release of carbon dioxide. And there's some of that in agriculture. Think about tractors and ventilation fans and electricity used for pumps for irrigation. But most of agriculture's contribution to climate change comes from other processes that are not in the fossil fuel or the power sector. Where are those? The first is nitrous oxide. Nitrous oxide is a greenhouse gas about 300 times more potent than carbon dioxide. And it comes because most farmers around the world and in the U.S. put about twice as much nitrogen fertilizer on their crops, on the land, as the plants can absorb. That extra nitrogen goes somewhere. Some of it goes off into the water. I'm sure your listeners have heard about harmful algae outbreaks or eutrophication of areas like the Chesapeake Bay and other bays where you just get too many nutrients and too much algae and very sick ecosystem. A lot of that nitrogen, though, also goes into the atmosphere as nitrous oxide. About 80% of nitrous oxide emissions in the U.S. come from agriculture. Excess fertilization of our hundreds of millions of acres of crop land.
Quick question. Why would, because the farmers have to pay money for this, why do they apply twice as much as the plants can absorb?
Great question. It's because of several different factors. Partly it is essentially technical or mechanical. A farmer may want to have the fertilizer on the land right at the spring when the crops are growing but the land may be a little muddy then. So they may have put it on in the fall, which is unfortunate because in the United States, in our temperate area, no plants are taking up fertilizers in the fall. Also, a plant is like you or me. They want to eat continually but a farmer may not want to apply fertilizer continuous. Every time you apply it, it takes tractor time and effort and it is more difficult. So they'll put a ton of fertilizer on at one point and then hope it lasts for a while, knowing that some of it will run off, but hopeful that some will remain to satisfy the plant. There's a lot of effort now to try to improve fertilizer application. To make sure it's applied in ways just the right amount at the right time. And perhaps with these what's called extended release fertilizers where you put it on and it will continue to release the nutrients to the plant over the next couple of weeks and not run off. But we have a long way to go.
Okay, thanks. I appreciate that discussion and I'm sorry I diverted you from the track you were on talking about the overall impact of agriculture on the climate.
I think what's so exciting about this area is that everyone cares about our food. We eat it three times a day or more and yet we know very little about where it comes from and its impacts on the world around us. It's wonderful to be talking about this. The second major source of climate change impact in agriculture is methane. Methane is another greenhouse gas much more powerful than carbon dioxide. About 30 times more powerful over a hundred years and about 85 times more powerful than carbon dioxide over 20 years. Which is I think the policy relevant time period that we're looking at because we're all trying to achieve climate stability by 2050. And where does methane come from? A little bit comes from rice, but the vast majority of it comes from cows and from manure. Cows are different than you and me. They can eat grass, and their stomachs are different, and release methane. Every time they breathe out, they are essentially breathing out this potent greenhouse gas methane. This is called enteric methane and it's the largest single source of methane in the United States. Bigger than the gas industry or the oil industry. The other major source of methane is manure. Our animals are raised in what are called concentrated animal feeding operations. They're not grazing bucolically on the pasture, they are crammed into buildings where there may be thousands, or tens of thousands, or even hundreds of thousands of these animals. Those hundreds of thousands of animals produce a vast amount of manure, whether it be say pigs in North Carolina or dairies in many States, or cattle or chicken. All our meat nowadays is grown in these concentrated areas where you get concentrated manure and that is often stored in these lagoons. These big pits of poop basically. And that, as it decomposes in this liquid environment, what's called anaerobically , releases a tremendous amount of methane. That's the second largest source of methane in the country after the cows belching. So you have nitrous oxide and you have methane. And then the third way agriculture contributes to climate change, which is different say than the fossil fuel sector, is by changing the land itself. Agriculture uses a tremendous amount of land. Think about it. When you go around, what do you see? You see agriculture uses about 62% of the contiguous United States; 800 million acres of land for grazing; or almost 400 million acres of land for cropland. Healthy land before it's been used for agriculture has a tremendous amount of carbon in the soil and in the plants. Just think about a forest with all the rich soil and the rich vegetation. When that is cleared to be a cornfield, all that carbon is lost and essentially it goes into the atmosphere as carbon dioxide. And that soil after that can't absorb any more carbon. Healthy soil is absorbing carbon all the time and most agricultural soils are not. So that release of carbon when you convert land to agriculture and that continuing inability to sequester carbon is another major way that agriculture contributes to climate change. So these three ways: nitrous oxide, methane and carbon from soil are all important contributors to climate change that don't really fit most people's model of what drives climate change - burning coal or oil and releasing carbon dioxide. But the bottom line is if we don't address agriculture's contribution to climate change, no matter how successful we are in reducing our fossil fuel use, we are very likely to face catastrophic climate change. Agriculture's contribution to climate change is so significant. Far more than the indicated by many figures. We can't achieve climate stability without addressing agriculture as well. Agriculture drives about a quarter or a third total green climate change.
Given how important this is, why don't people know more about it? And does industry play a role in that?
Industry plays a big role, as does politics. Industry - and by industry we mean the food industry. And you've covered this before. It's very concentrated industry where usually two or three or four firms control the market, whether it be for seeds or retail or beef or chicken or pesticides. It's a very, very concentrated industry with tremendous political power. They have done their best to ensure, first of all, the agriculture industry doesn't even have to report their greenhouse gas emissions. Every other industry has to report their greenhouse gas emissions. The big polluters have to report. On the other hand, agriculture was able to obtain a rider in Congress. That's an extra provision on a budget bill starting about a decade ago that prohibits EPA from requiring agricultural facilities to report greenhouse gas emissions. So unlike most areas, agriculture doesn't even have to report their emissions and industry certainly wants to keep it that way. Also, as I was explaining, agriculture contributes to climate change in a way that is different than what we normally think about. I think that added complexity has just meant it is harder for people to understand. And third, there's a tremendous amount of mythology in agriculture. People think or would like to think that their food comes from this nice family farm with a few animals and a few diversified crops on the hillside. And that in some sense was the reality 50 or 100 years ago, but now it's not the reality. While there's still lots of small farms like that by number, those produce very little of our food. Most of our food is produced in these gigantic animal factories that I mentioned earlier or in gigantic monoculture chemical-dependent agricultural operations. So, we have this disconnect between what is the mythology of agriculture and where our food comes from and the reality of it. People really don't want their myths disrupted.
Given the importance of these issues, what are some of the main ways that the impact of agriculture on climate can be changed?
That's another exciting part of this. That there's a lot of things that can be done to reduce the impact of agriculture's contribution to climate change. And we know this because there are a lot of producers who have piloted these programs, who've implemented these programs and these practices on their own operations to reduce the climate impact. And they've been successful. So these can be, for example, rotating crops instead of having the same crop year after year after year, which really depletes the soil. You can have different crops in different years and each crop puts a little different in the soil and takes a little different from the soil. As a result, very often you end up needing less artificial pesticide and fertilizer, both of which contribute to climate change. You can manage your animals different. You can manage your manure differently. For example, if manure is treated and handled dry, as opposed to in these wet manure lagoons, it produces very, very little methane. Instead of producing tremendous amounts of methane, it produces almost none. So, if we manage manure differently, we can significantly reduce methane emissions. And of course, there's what we think of as the demand side. In the same way that we think about LED light bulbs or more efficient cars as part of our energy transformation, we can use our land and food more efficiently. We waste a tremendous amount of food. Maybe 30-40% of the food we produce is wasted. That's crazy. It's all the effort and the greenhouse gases from producing the food are wasted if the food is wasted. Even worse, the food is dumped into a landfill for the most part where it releases more methane. And it's inefficient. We have a system that very heavily subsidizes meat production, but meat uses, particularly beef, a tremendous amount of land because cows need a lot of land the way their biology requires land and time. So we have almost 800 million or 700 million acres of land devoted to cattle grazing that could be storing carbon. Then it takes about 15 pounds of grain to get a pound of beef where people can eat the grain directly much more efficiently. So there's a lot of practices that we can do at every stage of the process to reduce the climate impact of agriculture. The challenge is that it's only on a couple percent of American cropland or very little portion of our food is produced that way.
So Peter, let me ask you a question about that very point you're on. We've recorded a series of podcasts on regenerative agriculture. Some of the most interesting podcasts we've done from my point of view. And they've included scientists who've studied it, policy people who look into it, but also farmers who have done this. I'm thinking particularly, well, three names pop into mind, but there are more. So Nancy Ranney, who ran a ranch in New Mexico for cattle, Gabe Brown, a regenerative farmer in North Dakota, and Will Harris from Georgia were all people we spoke to. I got the sense in each of those cases that these people were converting to this new model of farming because of what they cared about. It was their own passions that led them to do this and belief that a different system of agriculture was going to be important for the future. They were doing it for that reason, rather than any incentives from the government or policies that were encouraging, things like that. So there will be a small number of such people who would do it because they're passionate about it. I'm assuming that number will grow, but never fast enough to really do anything to scale like we really need it. So I'm ultimately you're going to need policies in place to ensure these things happen in more and more farms. Are there particular policies that are oriented this way that you think might be especially helpful?
Kelly, you are spot on. I know Nancy and Gabe and Will, and they're terrific. They are pioneers and they are showing that we know this works. We're not looking at ideas that might work. We are looking at practices that we know work because of what they and others like them have done. As you said, they're doing it because they believe it's the right thing. We'll get some farmers that way, but we need policy to move from 2% of American crop land to 92% of American crop land. So, how do we do that? One is the current farm bill is very important. The farm bill is the most important environmental law nobody's ever heard of. It dates back to the depression. It's renewed every five years. Congress is debating it right now. It was supposed to be renewed last year, but they couldn't get their act together. So they may or may not be able to reauthorize it this year. But the farm bill in one section provides a tremendous amount of money for nutrition assistance. And you've probably talked about that, what we call the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program. In another part of it, it provides tremendous amounts of subsidies to farmers, about $20 billion a year of subsidies to farmers. Right now, those subsidies really are not designed to encourage farmers to adopt the practices that you talked to Nancy or Gabe or Will about. These practices that I was talking about earlier and that sometimes are called regenerative, sometimes agroecological, organic farming is often a part of that. These $20 billion of subsidies though, could be redirected, reshaped somewhat and not necessarily radically, but reshaped and focused on encouraging farmers to adopt these practices that can help mitigate climate change. And importantly, the same practices, and as I'm sure the folks you've talked to said, also help them be more resilient to climate change. They can better help the producer better withstand floods and droughts and temperature extremes. So there is a tremendous upside from this. We are already spending $20 billion a year on farm subsidies. Let's start spending it more intelligently in a way that really addresses our needs.
Do you see signs that things are moving in that direction?
I wish I did. There are some signs that we're moving in the right direction. The Inflation Reduction Act, which Congress passed a couple of years ago, was the first time Congress ever linked agriculture and climate change. In the 2018 Farm Bill, there's no mention of climate change. And when we were working on that with members on the Hill, there was really no overt conversations about climate change. Fortunately, things have changed. So, a step forward is that we're talking about climate change. And in the Inflation Reduction Act, Congress provided $20 billion to go to programs that are established under the Farm Bill. So, 20 extra billion dollars to these Farm Bill conservation programs and required that that money be spent on practices that will reduce greenhouse gas emissions, essentially help us mitigate climate change. And that, again, was the first time Congress linked agriculture and climate change. Super important. Part of what's going on now on the Hill is a fight to ensure that money that the Inflation Reduction Act provided stays. There are those in Congress that would like to raid those funds and put them to other purposes, which we think would be a big step backwards. So that was really great opportunity. As to the Farm Bill money itself, there's definitely some conversations, particularly among the Democrats, to ensure that all of the Farm Bill programs are a bit more climate-focused. But we're far from consensus on that. So, we're making a bit of progress, but right now Congress is, I think it's fair to say, not at its most functional. And so the type of policy discussions we need, and an honest discussion of how can we help American farmers shift to practices that are better for them, for the communities, upwind and downwind and around them, better for climate change resilience and climate change mitigation. We're really not yet having that conversation as robustly as we need. Hopefully we'll be able to get to a place where the politics will allow us to have that. And frankly, this podcast and other conversations are really important to educating people so we can have that conversation.
When you're trying to make policy advances, having public support for it can be a real asset. Do you see signs that the public is becoming more aware of this, that they're urging their political leaders to move on this front?
For sure. The public is very much concerned about climate change. Every poll shows that. And people are concerned about it both as citizens and as consumers. So, if you follow the food marketing world, what you see is that many surveys show that consumers are very interested in the climate impact of their food choices. And far more than was the case a couple of years ago. And they want to know how can I buy food? How can I eat food that is climate friendly, that helps us stabilize the climate? And industry is responding to that. Now, some industry is responding to that by deceptive advertising. You may have seen that the New York Attorney General recently sued JBS, the world's largest beef company, for misleading statements about the climate-friendliness of their beef. So some companies are talking more than they're doing, but others are trying to respond to consumers' interest in more climate-friendly food. You see a growth in plant-based foods, plant-based milks, because plant-based foods have a much, much lower climate impact than meats, particularly beef. And so consumers are interested in that, and that market is responding. And I think you'll see more of that in governmental procurement as well. Governments that are trying to think about how can we, say New York City, reduce our climate footprint while a big part of a city's climate footprint is the food it purchases, say for New York City schools. And a city can take action by trying to buy lower climate impact foods. And that would be foods produced in a way that you've talked about with regenerative practices and also lower climate impact, such as more plant based. So, I think we're seeing a lot of progress on that for sure.
So Peter, related to this, what would you think about some kind of labeling system on food products that gives an environmental score, let's say?
I personally like the idea of labels. I'm not an expert by any stretch. I do remember that not too long ago, New York City required restaurants to label or have on the menus the calorie content of food. And that provision was later adopted by the Affordable Care Act and now is required of chain restaurants. And Trump tried to roll that back. So we litigated to try to preserve that and get that requirement reinstated in the Affordable Care Act successfully. And during that, I learned that labels really make a difference. Calorie labeling on menus does in fact help people make more informed choices and often better choices. And there's no question, again, I'm not an expert. You probably know much more, but for example, the added sugar labels make a difference and others. So I think as a whole, labels can make a big difference. Now, environmental footprint is a complicated multifaceted issue because something may create harm to water. It may create harm through toxic, say pesticide residue, or it may have a big climate footprint. How do you put all of that into a simple label? It's a complicated question. But I do think there's interest in having particularly climate, the climate impact food be identified on the label. And perhaps we will move in that direction.
Bio
Based in New York, Peter Lehner is the managing attorney of Earthjustice’s Sustainable Food & Farming Program, developing litigation, administrative, and legislative strategies to promote a more just and environmentally sound agricultural system and to reduce health, environmental, and climate harms from production of our food. Peter is one of the leading experts on the impact of agriculture on climate change and is the author of Farming for Our Future; the Science, Law, and Policy of Climate-Neutral Agriculture. From 2007–2015, Peter was the executive director of the Natural Resources Defense Council (NRDC) and the NRDC Action Fund. Among other new initiatives, Peter shaped a clean food program with food waste, antibiotic-free meat, regional food, and climate mitigation projects. From 1999–2006, Peter served as chief of the Environmental Protection Bureau of the New York State Attorney General’s office. He supervised all environmental litigation by and against the state. He developed innovative multi-state strategies targeting global warming and air pollution emissions from the nation’s largest electric utilities, spearheaded novel watershed enforcement programs, and led cases addressing invasive species, wildlife protection, and public health. Peter previously served at NRDC for five years directing the clean water program where he brought important attention to stormwater pollution. Before that, he created and led the environmental prosecution unit for New York City. Peter holds an AB in philosophy and mathematics from Harvard College and is an honors graduate of Columbia University Law School. Peter is on the boards of the Rainforest Alliance and Environmental Advocates of New York and a member of the American College of Environmental Lawyers. He helps manage two mid-sized farms and teaches a course on agriculture and environmental law at Columbia Law School.
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The first nutrition labels mandated by the Food and Drug Administration appeared on food packages in 1994. A key update occurred in 2016, informed by new science on the link between diet and chronic disease. Along the way, things like trans fats and added sugars were required, but all along, the labels have been laden with numbers and appear on the back or side of packages. There has long been interest in more succinct and consumer-friendly labeling systems that might appear on the front of packages. Such systems exist outside the US, but for political reasons and lobbying by the food industry, have been blocked in the United States. There's new hope, however, described in a recent opinion piece by Christina Roberto, Alyssa Moran, and Kelly Brownell in the Washington Post. Today, we welcome Dr. Christina Roberto, lead author of that piece. She is the Mitchell J. Blutt and Margot Krody Blutt Presidential Associate Professor of Health Policy in the School of Medicine at the University of Pennsylvania.
Interview Summary
This is a really important topic, and if the nation gets this right, it really could make a difference in the way people make product decisions as they're in the supermarket. So, let's talk first about the importance of labeling on the front of the package. Why is that important when all the information is somewhere else, namely on the side or the back?
I think there's a couple of key reasons why it's good to do front of packaging food labeling specifically. So, as you mentioned, it was a huge deal in 1994 to get this information mandated to be on food packaging to begin with, right? All of a sudden, there was much more transparency about what's in our food supply, but that being said, when you think about the nutrition facts label, it's pretty dense. There's a lot of percentages, there's a lot of numbers, there's a lot of information to process. And when people are actually in the supermarket shopping, they're making these split-second decisions, right? So, it's not to say that some consumers are turning it around and inspecting that packaging, but the reality is, for most people, it's a very habitual behavior. And so, we want to be in a place where that information is prominent, it's easily accessible, and it's easy to understand so that when you're making those snap judgements, they can be informed judgments.
So, you're not talking about taking what's on the back and just moving it to the front. You're talking about a different set of information and symbols that might be available?
That's right. Yeah. What front of package labeling is designed to do is just take some of the key bits of information that we know from science is going to be most important for consumers to base their nutritional decisions on. That's things like saturated fat, sodium, added sugars, right? And moving that to the front of the package and communicating about it in a very simple, clear way. So, no numbers, no percentages, just very straightforward language. And ideally some sort of icon, like an exclamation point, that would draw attention to that symbol and just quickly let consumers know that this product is high in those nutrients that you need to be concerned about and you need to try to limit.
Why is it an important time to be thinking about this issue in the US?
It's an important and it's an exciting time because the FDA right now is highly interested in actually moving forward on a policy that would require these types of front of package labels. And that hasn't been true, as you noted, for about a decade. But last year, the White House convened a very significant conference that hadn't happened in 50 years about nutrition, health, and hunger. And front of package labeling actually made it into their report in that conference as a key objective for this country in terms of a food policy that, under the Biden administration, they want to achieve. What we're seeing the FDA do now is actually undertake a series of research studies to try to understand what should this label look like, and how should it be designed to be consumer friendly. With the hope that actually we'll get a proposed rule on this potentially by June, and even if not by June. There's clear momentum that it looks like this is going to be happening in the near future.
In a few minutes, I'd like to ask you about what's taken place in other countries, but what's been the history of this in the US?
Front of package labeling really came to a head back in 2009. And it's actually quite a delight to share this with you, Kelly, because you and I were doing some research around it at the time. So, what played out then is a labeling system was introduced called Smart Choices. At its face, it seemed to make sense, right? It was going to be a check mark that was going to be put on products that were deemed to be healthy as a smart choice. So, a consumer could look at that and select something they wanted to eat that was relatively healthy. The reality is when that labeling system came out, it was on Fudgesicles and it was on Cookie Crisp cereal, and there was a lot of kind of concern about whether this type of labeling system was systematically problematic and was going to mislead consumers. And at that time, Kelly, I was a grad student at the Rudd Center and you really taught me quite a bit about how to make things happen and how to have a public health impact. Because we were quite concerned about that system, we actually did a study where we randomly sampled 100 products from Smart Choices and we applied an objective nutrition standard - an algorithm to score those products. What we found is that 64% of those Smart Choices products would not meet healthy by this objective nutrition standard. And so, you had the vision to reach out to the New York Times and alert the media to this. And we started to see a lot of kind of concerning reports in the media, like Smart Choices, what's going on? This doesn't seem very smart. We had done this little bit of science, and then at the Rudd Center, you had reached out to the attorney general of Connecticut at the time, Dick Blumenthal, who was quite interested in consumer protection issues and worked a lot on tobacco. And he took this up as a real public health champion to say this is concerning, we have some of this science, and he came out and threatened legal investigation into that program. What was so remarkable to see in that story, particularly for me as a grad student, was wow you can get these different actors coming together, right? Some of that media attention, science playing the role it needs to play, a public health champion who can really make a difference in the attorney general, and all of that can come together and this program literally halted, they stopped it. And I should say, that was a great public health victory. But immediately after that, the Institute of Medicine, so now the National Academy of Medicine, was charged with writing two reports on front of package labeling. And they came out with one that was focused on the nutrition criteria that should underlie a system like that, and one about the design of the label. And they had some great recommendations, very consistent with what you and I have seen in the science, right? It needs to be accessible, simple, easy to understand. Well, what ended up happening is not much. The industry at that point then released their voluntary labeling system that they call Facts Up Front, which is what we have to this day. And as you might imagine, it has percentages and it has grams and milligrams and it's confusing, and they can also highlight positive nutrients on there. So you can have a Cookie Crisp cereal that's also touting the amount of fiber, the amount of protein. And so that's really what we've been stuck with. It's now only over a decade later that we are at this moment where we're finally seeing this progress, and we're at a place where we might get a labeling system that does a really good job of communicating this information to the consumer.
I guess one sort of ironic form of evidence that such a system is likely to really help consumers make decisions is how hard the industry has fought against having such a system. And not to mention the science that exists suggesting that these things might be helpful. A lot of activity has occurred outside the US. Can you describe some of that?
Over 40 countries have front of package labeling systems. Now, some are mandatory, some are voluntary. The mandatory ones, as you might imagine, produce better effects. They range. And many of them are designed really well. So, let's take some of the best examples. Chile, for example, has warning labels that alert consumers to whether products are high in saturated fat, sugars, sodium, and calories, and those symbols are designed in a very intuitive way. They're stop sign shaped, so they really leverage the automatic associations consumers have. They're prominent, they're black, they stand out from the packaging. And these well-designed labels, we now have evidence from scientific evaluations that they're producing effects, right? They're leading consumers to purchase less of these unhealthy nutrients. They're also leading to some reformulation. And by that, I mean the industry is trying to figure out, 'well, can we lower the sodium, so we don't get one of those labels?' The other thing that I think is often overlooked with labeling but is so important is once you decide to label the food supply and you have an agreed upon system, that can support other policies. And that's what we see in Chile as well. Now all of a sudden, you can't market foods with these warning labels to kids, right? And you can't sell those foods with these warning labels to kids in schools. So, it really has even a broader impact than just the behavior change you see from the labeling, and so many other countries have followed suit. Mexico has a very similar labeling system. One thing that they've learned from Chile is, and this is a concern, that as the industry brings down the levels of sugar, for example, in foods in response to labeling, they're increasing the levels of non-sugar sweeteners, right? Things like Sucralose or Stevia or monk fruit, and so that's a worry. Mexico has, in addition, also labeled those non-sugar sweeteners on the food packaging. And then you see other examples. France has a really nice system. It's called Nutri-Score. Very intuitive. There are letter grades. I myself had the chance to go to France. I was trying to buy some turkey for my son. I don't speak a bit of French, and I'm standing in the supermarket and I just see the letter grade A and I think, oh, okay, I'll pick that one.
Great, great example.
Yes, very intuitive systems around the world.
So, are there studies showing which of these systems work and what sort of effects they have? And I know you've done additional work beyond what you mentioned earlier.
Absolutely, and there are a whole range of studies, whether they're randomized controlled trials, lab studies, or online experiments. And then the more compelling, convincing evidence, which comes from natural experiments that are done around the globe, or even research we have from stores that have voluntary implemented these labels and we can look at changes in sales data. And what all that boils down to is labeling will produce behavioral effects. They will get people to purchase healthier foods, they will get people to purchase less of the unhealthy foods. Labels inform consumers, which I think is kind of the first order goal, right? Like let's just make sure people understand what's in the food supply, and then we see this reformulation. And that's been true, even if you look back to trans fat labeling, like requiring trans fat on the labels was also associated with trans fat coming out of the food supply. So, I think we can feel really good and solid that labeling can help people make healthier choices. And as anyone who's worked on issues related to chronic diseases, we're going to need a suite of policies, right? Labels are never going to be the silver bullet. They're not designed to be, but it's a policy that makes a lot of sense. It's a very cost effective policy. It's not very expensive to do labeling, and it can help support many other policies that might produce bigger effects.
So, given the different options, the different kind of systems that have been proposed or are out there in use, do you have a sense of what ultimately might be the best system?
I think the FDA has some good options in front of them. Now, if I were to wave a magic wand, I would do warning labels. I would make them more similar to what's done in Chile, just because we have good evidence that warnings in particular, and these kinds of symbols like a stop sign, are probably going to be more effective at educating consumers and shaping behavior. Now, that being said, we have some unique legal challenges in the US for getting a system like that. The FDA is proposing, I think, a totally reasonable, science-based label that essentially would have what it's high in and then indicate whether it's high in added sugar or saturated fat or sodium. I would love to see that label also have some sort of icons, some eye-catching exclamation point or something like that, but that label is great, it's a great option. Let's compare it now to what the industry is pushing for, which is basically what we have now, facts upfront. And as I said earlier, this is a label that has percent daily values, that has grams, that has milligrams, that can highlight positive nutrients that are going to appear on unhealthy foods. I think when you look at those two options, it's just a no-brainer to go with this very simple, very straightforward, high-end label that lists the nutrients and let's put some sort of icon on it.
So are you optimistic about where things might go?
Well, I'm a glass half full kind of person. I would say yes, I try to be very optimistic, but I think there's reason to be. I think we have some good options on the table, FDA is moving forward, research is being done, scientists and others are highly engaged in this process and giving feedback to FDA. And so many other countries have done this. So yes, I am feeling optimistic.
So at the end of the day, a lot of this will come down to how much the FDA can resist pressure from the food industry.
Right, so many things in food policy do come down to that.
That's really true. So true. It's interesting, one of the things that you highlighted, but I'd like to even bring a little more attention to is the issue of the industry reformulating its products so that they don't have to show these negative labels. That's such a potentially powerful public health consequence of this, that it needs to be focused on even more. I'm hoping the valuations are being done of the impact of that on public health. Because you can make an argument, couldn't you, that if these labels don't affect the purchasing behavior of a single individual, they still could have enormous public health benefit just because of the reformulation, do you agree?
Oh, 100%. Yes, absolutely. I would even argue that we have very few mechanisms to hold industry accountable, and to me is just a fundamental right of consumers. Like they have the right to know, there needs to be transparency, and great that they are likely to produce behavior change and great that they are likely to make the industry reformulate, but I just feel like that there's so many reasons to do labeling that it just feels like an obvious policy to pursue.
Hopefully, any system that comes into place can be nimble as much as they can be in these government regulations to take into account new science that occurs. Like at some point, maybe a symbol that notes whether a product is ultra processed would be in order, or as you said, in France, I think it was, where they've labeled the addition of the artificial sweeteners. Was it France or was it another place?
Mexico. Yes.
That's right. Okay. Yeah, thanks for clearing that up. Something like that might enter the system, so having a system that can adjust to the science as it goes forward would be really important too.
Kelly, it's such an important point. I think part of any labeling strategy needs to be monitoring and evaluation, and particularly with the non-sugar substitutes. Like right now, we don't know, it's a very hard thing to track. It's only on the ingredient list. We can't quantify how much is in the food supply. And so I would love to see coupled with labeling some way that that gets disclosed so we can really monitor and ensure how that might be changing in the food supply over time and evaluate, to your point, what's happening in terms of reformulation.
As an aside, we've done a cluster of podcasts on the influence of these artificial sweeteners and the sugar substitutes and the available science on this, on what goes on in the brain, what happens to the microbiome, the impact of health overall is really concerning, so I totally agree with you that having that information disclosed could be really helpful.
Yes, 100%.
BIO
Christina A. Roberto, PhD is the Mitchell J. Blutt and Margo Krody Blutt Presidential Associate Professor of Health Policy at the Perelman School of Medicine at the University of Pennsylvania. She is also an Associate Director of the Center for Health Incentives and Behavioral Economics (CHIBE) at Penn. Dr. Roberto is a psychologist and epidemiologist who studies policies and interventions to promote healthy eating habits and help create a more equitable and just food system. In her work, she draws upon the fields of psychology, behavioral economics, epidemiology, and public health to answer research questions that provide policymakers and institutions with science-based guidance. Dr. Roberto earned a joint-PhD at Yale University in Clinical psychology and Chronic Disease Epidemiology. Dr. Roberto completed her clinical internship at the Yale School of Medicine and was a Robert Wood Johnson Foundation Health and Society Scholar at the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health.
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Traditional clinical weight loss interventions can be costly, time consuming, and inaccessible to low-income populations and people without adequate health insurance. Today's guest, Dr. Gary Bennett, has developed an Interactive Obesity Treatment Approach, or iOTA for short, that represents a real advance in this area. Dr. Bennett is Professor of Psychology and Neuroscience, Medicine and Global Health at Duke University, where he is also Dean of Trinity College of Arts and Sciences.
Interview Summary
You know, in this time when people are talking about more expensive, and kind of more intrusive interventions, like the big weight loss drugs, it's nice to know that there may be alternatives that could be accessible to more people. Could we start off with you telling our listeners what the iOTA approach is and how it works?
Sure. This is an approach for weight management. It's useful for weight loss or preventing weight gain or maintaining one's weight after you've lost weight. The idea here is that it's a technology that's designed to be highly accessible, and useful for a range of different types of populations. So, as you described, we have developed and tested this primarily for folks who are medically vulnerable, who are low income, who are racial, ethnic minority, who live in rural communities, and where we have traditionally had real difficulty reaching populations with effective weight loss tools. So, iOTA is a fully digital approach. It uses technologies smartphone apps, but it can also use text messaging, interactive voice response, those are like robocalls, automated telephone calls, websites. We've tested this on a wide range of different types of technology platforms, and we've tested it in a range of different types of populations all over the country and indeed even in other countries.
So, give us some examples of what kind of information people might be receiving through these various forms of media.
The underlying kind of technology, the underlying approach, I should say, for iOTA is actually reasonably simple. It operates from the perspective that creating weight loss is really about making an energy deficit. That is to say, helping people to consume fewer calories than they are expending. The realization we had years ago is that you can get there, you can create that calorie deficit in a whole host of different ways. Some people diet, some people try to get more active, there are limitations around that kind of approach. But fundamentally, you can also just get there by asking people to do some reasonably straightforward behaviors. Like not consuming sugary beverages, or consuming fewer chips, cookies and candies. Or changing the amount of red meat that they put on the plate. And, if you frame those things out as goals, then you can prescribe those goals to people in ways that make sense to them personally. The trick though is actually in the idea of personalizing those goals to the given individual. And that's where technology comes in and gets very helpful. The case is, if you have a large library of these goals, you'd want to try to provide these in a highly personalized way. That really are aligned with what people's needs are and noting that those needs may change over time. So, what we do with iOTA is deliver a very short survey. That survey then helps us to be able to look into our library of goals and pick the ones that are most useful for our users. We prescribe those goals, and then we ask folks to self-monitor those goals. Self-monitoring or tracking is an extraordinarily powerful part of behavior change science. And so, we ask them to track using one of our technologies: the chat bot or the text message or interactive voice response or the smartphone app. Every time that we receive data from one of our users, we give them highly personalized feedback that is designed around principles of behavior change science. And then over time we also give them support. We do support sometimes from a coach or sometimes from a layperson, sometimes it's even from a physician. And over time what we find is that this kind of an iOTA approach helps people to lose weight, prevent weight gain, have weight loss maintenance, but it also has a cascade of other types of effects, some of which we didn't really even anticipate producing.
This reminds me of something that I've fought for years, that nutrition and weight control can get incredibly complicated and down on the weeds in a fascinating way from a academic point of view. But that you can get to the goal line with just a few simple things. You might be 80% to the goal line just by eating less junk food and eating more fruits and vegetables and getting mired in that last 20% becomes confusing. It sounds like that's exactly what you're doing. That you kind of picked some of the big things that people can do, establish goals around them, and then provide a behavioral path for getting to those goals.
That's precisely our thinking. And the thing I'd add to that is part of the challenge in weight control is making those types of changes for long amount period of time that it takes to produce and sustain weight losses. One of the things we know is that any kind of behavior change, but particularly behavior change for weight control purposes just requires an extraordinary amount of engagement over a very, very long time. So, I'm fond of saying to our teams and to others I'm really much less concerned with strategies that produce weight changes at a month or two months. Because the real question for us is how do we create technologies that can support users as they enter the 10th month or the 12th month? Fundamentally, what we're really after here. It's not really weight loss, but it's really the changes in a whole range of health parameters. So cardiometabolic function, the indicators of the development of various cancers, diabetes parameters, those kinds of things. And it takes time and effort to produce those changes via the weight control, changes that we're hoping to produce with these technologies.
What kind of results are you getting from this and does the iOTA program in fact make it easier for people to stay on track with their health goals?
Yes, it's a really interesting set of findings over more than a half dozen trials in the last bunch of years. If I were to summarize, I'd say we get pretty modest weight losses relative to say, what you might get with a very intensive weight loss intervention or with a drug or certainly with surgery. But what's different is that those weight changes do tend to be sustained over time. So, they're modest, but they last. And the really interesting finding for us is that people stay very engaged with these technologies. On average, people tend to use new apps pretty feverishly in the first month after they downloaded, or they put it on their phone one way or another. And then most people, about 70% of the time, people move away from those apps, they disengage. When we look back about a year after people started using iOTA, it's very, very common for people to be engaged with our technologies 80-85% of the time. That is to say, they're still tracking their goals at about 80% fidelity after a year. That's really terrific. and it's one of the reasons I think that we're able to see sustained losses, even though those losses aren't very large. And again, my goal here is much less - this is a public health approach - I'm much less interested here in trying to produce large weight losses for cosmetic reasons and those kinds of things. This is really an effort to try to create a very highly disseminatable, inexpensive treatment that is accessible to large numbers of folks. In trials, we certainly have seen changes in blood pressure and various cardiometabolic parameters like lipids. Those changes tend to be larger in certain populations. When we tested this in China, we saw very, very large dips in lipids. And those too also do tend to be sustained. The biggest surprise for us over the years has been a relatively consistent set of findings that suggest that people have improved wellbeing on the backend of participating in one of these kinds of treatments. They tend to feel less stressed, have more energy, and have better quality of life. In fact, we've seen very, very large reductions in depressive symptoms in study after study. I'll just add tangentially that's notable for us in the populations in which we work, because these are not populations for whom weight is very closely tied with one's emotional state. That is to say, the patient populations in which we work tend to have more tolerance for heavier body weights compared to other populations. So, when we see weight loss in our trials, we don't often expect to see that accompanied by improvements in depressive symptoms. But we see it in study after study after study. So, we've been really pleased with this broad array of impacts that this technology seems to produce.
It's nice to hear the positive results. And I also like your aspirations because a smaller weight loss, better maintained is a much better outcome than a larger weight loss regain, which is typically the case. And the fact that you're getting these corollary effects in other areas of life, like mental health and things like that is very impressive. Are there other stories you could tell from people that have been on the program that might be illustrative?
Oh yes. What happens most often in our studies is that at some point one of our patients approaches me and says, "You know, I've tried everything. I've tried dieting, tried this app and that app and this is just so easy. I've been able to stick with it for a long time." That happens a lot. And it always, always pleases me greatly because at the end of the day we're really trying to create these technologies for real people to use over a very, very long period of time. I find that exciting. We've had a number of people over the years who have gotten off their hypertension medications or have had seen changes in their diabetes, their A1Cs as a measure of diabetes. And it's just really exciting because then it's one of the things that I think gets us up in the mornings to do this work.
That is exciting. How has it been especially influential among people who otherwise have limited access to care?
We really started this work because of a series of observations that I made early in my career when I started working in community health centers. Community health centers are often primary care units in many major metropolitan areas, and often in rural settings as well. Their primary intention is to serve patients who are medically vulnerable, and often patients who are poor. On those settings, the providers in those settings are just doing extraordinary work. And I started to spend time there and was trying to understand how we might think about situating this kind of technology and these kinds of public health style interventions within those care settings. And the observation I made over and over and over again was that, even in these care settings that are really designed to serve patients who have low income or come from limited income backgrounds, weight control and behavior change in general was just not the highest priority. These physicians are dealing with all manner of acute and chronic health crises. And they just didn't feel that managing a patient's weight was the best use of their limited clinical time and attention with patients. The challenge of that, of course, is that, for patients who have obesity, that can be a primary cause of many of the acute and chronic conditions that my physician colleagues were treating. And so what I began to observe was that patients who have the greatest need for comprehensive obesity care are often the least likely to receive it. And this is borne out by national data, which suggests that if you're a person from a medically vulnerable background and you have obesity, you're dramatically less likely to receive high quality care from the health system. And then there are a whole range of financial constraints that limit your ability to be able to acquire that care in the commercial market. And so there are really many, many people, really, tens of millions of folks out there without options. So, that's really why we started developing these tools. And I'm very pleased to say that the underlying approach that we develop with iOTA has been leveraged in a variety of weight control interventions that are being used in other places. The next frontier for us is to really think about how to disseminate this in a more widely accessible way. We've begun having conversations with metropolitan areas. Cities where health departments are thinking about doing these kinds of things. Some of these technologies have found their way into other systems. And increasingly as we have begun to test these approaches in clinical care settings, we certainly have seen ongoing use of these technologies in the community health centers where we originally came up with some of these ideas. So, much more work there to be done but I'm hopeful.
Do you see a role for this approach in conjunction with or as a companion to the weight loss medications that are getting so much attention now?
Yes, I do. One of the things that's notable about this generation of weight loss medications is that they do not have an indication that they should be accompanied with a behavior change intervention. So, the other way to say that is that most weight loss drugs that we've seen in years past have received FDA approval, contingent on their combination, their use, alongside a behavior change intervention. And the GLPs, the ones that are most recently emerged, don't have that indication. Nevertheless, we know a couple of things. One is that these are medications that are designed to be used for very long time in order for fat, weight loss to be sustained. And there are a number of people who increasingly are interested in transitioning off of these medications and beginning to engage weight control on their own. So, my sense is that technologies like iOTA can be very useful in helping people make those transitions off of drug. I think the technologies we've created can be very, very useful as an adjunct to try to help to maintain motivation for weight loss. And to think about addressing some of the related behaviors that can help people to experience an overall improvement in their health. So, becoming more physically active and making changes in stress and wellbeing as an adjunct to the weight loss that's being produced by the drugs. I have to tell you, I'm very, very concerned about the cost of these medications. I'm very pleased by their efficacy, but I'm extraordinarily concerned about their cost and their limited accessibility. I expect that will change. But during this period of time, I'm very concerned about the creation of additional disparities, patient's ability to seek really high-quality care.
I'm glad you raised that point. So, where do you see the work going next with IOTA?
Well, I see it going in two directions. One, we are thinking about dissemination. Where can you embed this kind of approach inexpensively in ways that allow the greatest number of users. The emergence of artificial intelligence technologies, notably the large language models, really help in that regard because they allow us to deliver that kind of core iOTA special sauce more flexibly in a range of different technologies. And even more inexpensively than we can do right now. iOTA is extremely cost effective and with AI delivery it could be even more so. And then the other path I see is really what you asked before. And it's how do we think about using these technologies as an adjunct to medication treatment, which I think will become even more common over the next couple of years. I hope that it becomes a more common approach that's used to treat the patients who have the highest risk of obesity and all of the chronic health conditions that travel along with it.
BioGary Bennett, a professor in the department of Psychology & Neuroscience who also holds appointments in Global Health, Medicine and Nursing, is the founding director of the Duke Digital Health Science Center. For 20 years, he has been studying how incorporating digital strategies into clinical treatment of obesity can improve health outcomes. His development of the Interactive Obesity Treatment Approach (iOTA) has been supported by over $20 million in grants from the National Institutes of Health.
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