![[DISCIPLESHIP] 5. Go Down, Go Low, Go Small](https://is4-ssl.mzstatic.com/image/thumb/Podcasts115/v4/9f/46/0f/9f460f92-4d64-832c-7d0b-81b92e4d91cc/mza_946275466878741273.jpg/250x250bb.jpg)
Эпизоды
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Paul, Robert, and Liz continue their conversation on Jesus' passion, turning their attention to Judas' betrayal. In this episode, Paul mentions a talk he gave on Judas several years ago, as part of an audio study called "The Love Course." You can listen to that talk here (or download it to listen to later, if you click on the triple dots.)
"How do you know someone is troubled? He was agitated, and when someone is agitated, they're tense, they're restless, they fidget. And John, sitting right next to him, could sense that. Leaning up against him, he probably felt the tenseness in Jesus' body."
"Jesus has kind of given us a template to be ourselves...""This doesn't mean that ‘yourself’ is always right but is a beautiful picture of normal. I have one older friend who will often get depressed and sometimes the reason for her feeling depressed is that her circumstances are depressing! I encourage her that it’s okay to be depressed, because your life is depressing. While that may not sound like an encouragement, I think it’s helpful to see that Jesus allows space for sadness, because often what Christians are dealing with is guilt on top of depression."
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Paul, Robert, and Liz continue their conversation about learning from Jesus in his passion.
"Contrary to the typical pictures on a Sunday school wall, Jesus comes down the hill on Palm Sunday weeping – the word is actually closer to 'wailing.' In our experience of humanity, people who wail and warrior kings are never the same person, but Jesus is a wailing warrior king. His heart is filled sadness over what his people will suffer, and he will fight to the death for them."
"There’s a pattern of action that we see throughout the Bible – seeing is the beginning of action.""We see this pattern in the prayers of the Psalms ('Lord, see what I'm doing, look down from heaven'), and in God’s response in situations, ('I've seen the travail of my people and I've come down…'). Most human action begins with seeing. And so, we see here with Jesus, it is seeing the city that moves him to tears. He doesn't use his divinity to see it over the hill two miles out. Jesus reacts in the situation, just like you and me."
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Пропущенные эпизоды?
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Paul, Robert, and Liz continue their conversation about seeing Jesus in his passion, turning their attention to what we learn from his sadness and grief over the people’s rejection of him.
"Jesus’ words are so tender, 'Your house is left desolate.' We get a picture of broken intimacy or intimacy that never happened. It’s paired with this really true and honest image of how brutal they are. 'You who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you.' He’s going after the hardness of their hearts, their will. Jesus, who is life himself, is crushed at this point. He's feeling the loss of the people of Israel."
"Understanding Jesus’ sadness can help us understand his love.""Joy is the fruit of intimacy and obedience, and sadness is the result from the failure of intimacy and obedience. Obedience involves a surrender of our will to the ways of God. That's where the will comes out in what Jesus is saying here. They're killing the prophets. The prophets are coming and telling them what they're doing wrong, and they hate that. So they're pushing against the mind of Christ; they're pushing against the ways of God."
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Paul, Jon, and Liz continue their conversation about the humility Jesus calls us to, looking at what taking the lower place might look like in an everyday moment.
"Humility is when your heart is humbled, it's a virtue, a character trait. Humiliation is when your circumstances are humble. It's helpful to distinguish between the two, but having experienced some of the dying of humility in my life, I slowly learned that these two things are deeply connected."
"The place of humiliation is where you learn humility.""You do not learn humility abstractly. You have to be in a humbled place. The story I'm going to tell here is made up, but it's the kind of thing that happens everyday. I've made the husband the bad guy, but I've also told it where I flip the husband and wife. But everybody gets mad at the husband in this no matter which way I do it!"
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Paul, Jon, and Liz continue their discussion of Jesus’ humility, looking at the foot washing scene in John 13.
"This scene reads like a YouTube video. John gives us every move of Jesus, and the effect of it is riveting… especially since he does it all in silence. John's writing this probably 60, 50 years later, from what Eusebius tells us, and he remembered every single move Jesus made because he wasn't talking. It just sealed it in his mind – like the scene itself was a visualization of the mind of Christ."
"Foot washing is Jesus’ glory. It’s where his beauty shines.""Jesus is acting out his atonement. He's showing us that the example of his dying love leads to the atonement. It's a beautiful balance between what we might call 'the example of Jesus' and 'the atonement of Jesus.' And it's just so important how we constantly need to bring them together and not pull them apart. Liberalism tends to sit on the example and our conservative churches, while they really do both, tend to weigh the atonement above the example. And it’s true, you never get at the example unless you have the atonement. But that makes it easy to miss the foot washing. But the sheer physicality of the gospels shows us Jesus' beauty."
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Paul, Jon, and Liz start a new series, talking through the Passion unit of our Person of Jesus Study, which looks closely at how all the aspects of Jesus as a person that we've looked at before (his compassion, honesty, dependence on God, and faith) come together in the intense last few weeks of his life on earth.
"Jealousy is a sin that is often hidden from the person who is jealous, because it always speaks about what the other person is doing wrong. So it is powerful and deceptive. It is like cancer within. I have seen churches and families torn apart by this sin. The antidote for it is dying with Jesus – the antidote is to lose, to take the downward path of Philippians 2."
"Everyone's expecting and wanting Jesus to move up the ladder, to make a move to grab power, and he's doing the opposite. He's teaching the opposite. He's demonstrating the opposite.""You can picture it like a graph where Jesus' line would be going down and the disciples, their hearts, and their desires are moving up. There’s a point where they crisscross, and there's a rub. That rub is working against our own minds and hearts, our own ways of thinking and being. It’s the mind of Christ grating against ours in a very gentle but an obviously honest and truthful way."
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Paul, Liz, and Robert continue their conversation about the woman at the well, looking at the second half of their conversation.
"Jesus has already said he has water. Now he says the character of the water is not just spring water. It’s not well water that's been sitting there forever. It's not spring water – it’s water that if you drink it, you'll never be thirsty again. This is like a super drink. Then he ramps it up once more: the water I give will become a spring of water. So when you drink this water that I give, it's going to transform your heart so you become a gusher."
"In the midst of something as simple as a drink of water, Jesus gets at the thirst of her heart.""Jesus is now beginning to give her living water, and he does it by saying, 'Go call your husband and come back.' You can feel the conversation shifting at this point; she gives a much shorter answer. This is the hardest part of the conversation for me to go to. I can do the compassion part, the intrigue part, but this coming in with this honesty is just hard…"
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With the Discipleship series complete, we circle back to our Faith series (based on the Person of Jesus Faith Study) to cover a story we had not yet discussed: Jesus' conversation with the woman at the well. Paul Miller, Liz Voboril, and Robert Row look at how this story showcases Jesus' compassion, honesty, and dependence on the Father -- themes we've discussed in previous episodes.
"The conversation between Jesus and the woman at the well is remarkable. It’s the longest conversation that we have recorded between two people that are of the non-elite class, which is the top 1%. It is the longest conversation between everyday people that we have in antiquity."
"This conversation is the hope diamond of Jesus' interactions with people – it just sparkles!""You can pick up the woman’s personality almost immediately. When people do awkward things, like Jesus does here, most of us try to gloss it over. But she states the exact awkwardness: 'How can you, a Jew, ask me, a Samaritan woman for a drink?' It’s kind of like she's just met a Martian."
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Paul, Jon, and Liz continue their discussion of discipleship, talking about how the discipling process is a process of moving people out of lukewarm into hot or cold.
"The discipling process is a process of moving people out of lukewarm into hot or cold, and that's a good process. You're calling them to greatness, and you want to move them to hot. You don't want them lukewarm."
"In general, I would say the weakness of the church is that it’s too quick, it’s 'low-bar discipling.' There's no meat in the training.""But there is a danger at the opposite side of where the training can get too obsessive or oppressive. The gnostics believed that there was this secret inner knowledge, and it kind of created a hierarchy. And you had to become an insider. It's really important for those of you who are leading discipling and those who are discipling others to guard against the intrusion of personal and institutional pride."
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Paul, Jon, and Liz continue their discussion of discipleship, talking about the history of discipleship practices.
"By about 200 AD, every person who wanted to become a Christian went through a year of discipleship. They did this through a form of catechism, or questions and answers, and then the graduation was on Easter. That's when you were baptized. I think one of the reasons the church does that is I'm sure they had experience with converts just being light and fluffy, so they had actually gotten stricter as far as we can tell than the New Testament."
"Culture 'disciples' us in profound ways -- everybody is being shaped by something."
"The discipleship era we live in has been profoundly shaped by the revolution begun by Charles and John Wesley. They really are the fathers of modern pietism. They popularized the prayer meeting, the small group. They didn't invent these things, but they certainly made them worldwide. Methodism as a strategy went way beyond Methodism and captured the imagination of the whole church. That’s why we still have prayer meetings, discipleship groups, and even the idea of discipleship with individuals." -
Paul, Jon, and Liz continue their conversation about discipleship.
"At the heart of discipleship is not just seeing Jesus and becoming like him abstractly, but actually entering into the patterns of his life. One of the central principles of interpretation of the New Testament is that what happens to Jesus happens to us."
"The goal of discipleship is Christ formation.""You can't separate a teaching gift from the command to love. Otherwise, you've got a machine, and you can't create a discipling machine!"
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Paul, Jon, and Liz continue their conversation about discipleship.
"Two thousand years after Jesus’ death, the Church of Jesus Christ is absolutely massive—there are three billion confessing Christians. If you're going to start the world's biggest, most enduring organization, how would you go about it? It's striking that Jesus doesn't go to the rabbinical schools or to the elites."
"We laugh at the disciples for their clumsiness, but we miss the beauty of their lack of pretense.""Probably the most important thing in hunting for people to disciple is hunting for teachability. You just don't get teachability when people are on a hierarchy. I love schooling; I've been a supporter of Christian schools my whole life. I'm not knocking school or systems of learning, but you really have to be careful that you don't create hierarchies of knowledge. Jesus is always tearing down these hierarchies, and he does it with the kind of people."
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Paul, Jon, and Liz continue their conversation about discipleship.
"One caution with a focus on discipleship practices is that it can be like making an amusement park about going on a ride. But you don't just go on a ride at Disney, you are immersed in an experience. Discipleship without an overall goal of growing in Christ-likeness is just getting a lot more Christian information."
"The whole process of disciple-making really begins best in friendship.""Outside of the New Testament, one of the best descriptions of the telos of the Christian life is in Warfield’s sermon called 'Imitating the Incarnation.' He says, 'It means not that we should live one life, but a thousand lives,' because the love of Christ draws us into sharing in so many other people’s stories."
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Paul, Jon, and Liz continue their conversation about discipleship, looking at active vs. passive posture in discipleship, and how Jesus discipled the 12.
"Marshall McLuhan famously said, 'The medium is the message,' calling attention to the shaping power that our method of communicating has over the content of the message. If the sermon sits at the center of our imagination for discipleship, we risk having an overly passive view of growing as a disciple. This isn’t a critique on the sermon – listening to sermons is an important way to grow. But we want to get our imagination for discipleship from how Jesus does this work…"
"The heart of Jesus’ ministry is mentoring the twelve.""Jesus often takes as much time in an incident or interaction as he does in interpreting the incident for others. Sometimes he goes through two layers of people, interpreting for the larger group of people, and then again specifically for the smaller. This slows him down a lot, but he's doing Christ formation with his disciples. He's not just on a healing ministry; he’s pivoting between a healing ministry, a teaching ministry, a discipling ministry, and his own prayer time. This pattern is all through the gospels. The discipleship of the 12 is the organizing structure of his day-to-day life."
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Paul, Jon, and Liz start a new series looking at the topic of discipleship.
"We are quite serious about what the Apostle Paul calls the mind of Christ. That's Philippians 2:5, where Paul said, 'Let this mind be in you which is also in Christ Jesus.' Paul then goes on to describe the story of Jesus' life: going down into death and up into resurrection. He's driving for something; don't learn this in the abstract, but let this mind be in you."
"Within the world of Christian ministry, formation tends to be a little vague: we are learning the Bible, learning doctrine, learning holiness, and all of those are important, but what you see in Paul, in the whole New Testament really, is this sharply defined telos or end goal: Christ's formation.""The Apostle Paul’s call to discipleship aims so high – it’s like he’s training Olympic athletes. What's so daunting and enchanting about it is that he’s not just saying this to the elites or the most naturally 'athletic' of the church. It's for everyone in the church, and he has this expectation that the Spirit who makes Christ present is so powerful that Christ's formation is realistic and it's doable, not in our own strength but in the spirit of Jesus."
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Paul, Jon, and Liz continue their conversation about faith with an episode that looks at faith as a habit of the heart that turns to Jesus.
"This is a little bit of an inference on my part, but what I think Jesus is irritated about, here in Mark 8 with the disciples, is that when they come across a problem, they don’t turn to him. They turned inward, and I’m sure started getting irritated with each other. We can easily imagine the discussion, 'You said you're going to bring the bread! Why didn’t you?' When all along, as they’ve seen already, they have this bread factory in the boat with them!"
"Faith is a habit of the heart where you look away from yourself, your wisdom, and your resources and turn to Jesus.""Oddly enough, a strong faith person is weak as they look to themselves. Strength of faith is measured by your ability to turn away from yourself. It's not looking inward to see if you have enough faith, but looking outward to the object of your faith. Faith, in that sense, is without energy. It's this is a habit of the heart where you look away from yourself and turn to Jesus."
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Paul, Jon and Liz continue their conversation about faith, looking especially at how Jesus develops the disciples' faith.
"Right after the feeding of the 5000, Jesus dismisses his disciples. It's the only time he does this, and it’s a situation where it would appear he could use their help. But when you put all three of the gospel accounts together, you realize Jesus had to act fast. It was almost like he was getting them out of the drug world… the 'drug' of 5000 people shouting for Jesus to be King. It's an intoxicating crowd that could sweep up the disciples, and so Jesus sends them off alone in the boat."
"Jesus doesn't rescue Peter until Peter says, 'Jesus save me!' It’s classic Jesus: he leaves space for us to move towards him.""Peter looks at Jesus by faith, and then he loses it and goes back again. All of the disciples take steps of faith and then show their weakness of faith. It’s like Jesus has them in a faith coaching camp. Every time he permits stress in their lives, he builds faith in them and points them to faith."
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Paul, Jon and Liz continue their conversation looking at the development of faith in Jesus' followers -- this episode looks at the story of Peter rebuking Jesus and at Jesus' words to the Rich Young Ruler.
"What we're thinking about now is the object of our faith. The object of Peter's faith is a traditional first century off-the-shelf messiah who has an army that destroys evil in Israel and throws the Romans into the sea. So it's very concrete. And what Jesus has just told Peter seems like crazy talk."
"The object of Peter's faith is Jesus, but it's the wrong Jesus. It's a Jesus who's going to make his life pain-free. It's not a Jesus who draws you into his death and resurrection.""There’s some beauty to John Mark walking away. He doesn't try to stop being himself immediately. Jesus is separating the wheat from the chaff. You either have to be hot for Jesus or cold. You can't be in the middle or lukewarm. John Mark is coming, in a sense, asking, ‘How can I be hotter for Jesus?’ Jesus’ answer is helping John Mark to see that he’s actually cold."
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Paul, Jon, and Liz continue their conversation about faith by looking at how the disciples learned about faith in the context of two boating adventures with Jesus.
"To understand God, as Calvin says, you can either begin with yourself or with God. Because a true knowledge of yourself will lead to a true knowledge of God, and a true knowledge of God will lead you to a true knowledge of yourself. You see that dynamic happening here. Jesus hasn't said anything like, 'You’re a sinner, Peter.' It's just this encounter with the immense warmth and love and kindness of God -- His sheer goodness to us – that makes Peter turn and think of his sin."
"Peter is profoundly seen. He's encountered life at a level he never has experienced before.""In the scene on the boat in the storm, what we're looking at as Jesus sleeps is his faith. He rests completely in his Father and his Father's love for him. He is without fear; the disciples fear because they don't have that rest in the Father. The faith that allows him to sleep is as helpful for them as the miracle itself!"
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Paul, Jon, and Liz continue their conversation about Jesus' faith, looking at how he loves the disciples and the crowds over the course of a 24-hour period in his ministry.
"This pattern of Jesus is all through the gospels: he sees a large crowd, has compassion on them because they're like sheep without a shepherd, and then he begins teaching and healing. So this vacation that Jesus and the disciples are taking is interrupted by 25,000 people…”
"A life of faith will be filled with surprises and unexpected things!""The reason Satan has no hold on Jesus is because the only thing Jesus wants is the love of his Father. So there's no hook, no crack in Jesus' armor; Satan has no leverage over him. I’ve often thought of that during times of suffering. If I surrender my job, my family, my career, my spouse, and my health, then Satan has no hold on me. He can't tempt me with something that I don't own. That's why suffering is so powerful in the Christian life; it strips us of something we might be tempted to own."
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