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What is a Christian understanding of forgiveness? And does it necessarily involve reconciliation or the abatement of anger?
On the final episode of this season, Gloria welcomes Reverend Matthew Ichihashi Potts on “The Gloria Purvis Podcast” to discuss the subject of forgiveness.
Reverend Potts is an Episcopalian minister and professor of Christian Morals at Harvard University. He is also the author of the new book, Forgiveness: An Alternative Account, a probing study that draws upon theology, philosophy, social ethics and even literature to reexamine or rediscover forgiveness.
The conversation centers primarily on whether forgiveness is possible especially with grave violations of human dignity, such as slavery, genocide, and mass shootings. Too often, Matthew says, we hurry to dress the wounds of trauma with the bandage of cheap forgiveness. We mistakenly believe that anger must fully subside in order for forgiveness to become possible. But is that what Jesus means when he urges us to forgive seven times seventy times?
Matthew offers an alternative definition of forgiveness, which is simply put, non-retaliation. However, choosing to forgive someone who has caused immense harm does not mean that the victims of violence must sweep feelings of anger under the rug or rush to reconciliation.
“If your question is where does our discomfort around anger come from?” says Matthew, “it comes from things like structural violence, like white supremacy. I think that if you are a person in power, it's really good if your victim is not angry anymore. Because if they're not angry anymore, then there's no wrong to fix. And so I think we should be suspicious of a white, European Christian theological tradition that has come to associate the abatement of anger with forgiveness, because who does that bear out on? It bears out on people who have traditionally been marginalized- women and people of color.”
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If there’s one thing that pro-life and pro-choice advocates can agree upon, its that the cost of having a baby is significant, and often a deterrent for mothers carrying to term.
“So the average privately-insured person pays about $2,800 to give birth out of pocket,” says Kristen Day, the Executive Director of Democrats For Life of America. “And one in six new parents pay over $5,000. But those women without insurance pay thousands more, up to $20,000.”
For the penultimate episode of the second season, Gloria is joined once more by Kristen Day, the Executive Director of Democrats For Life of America. Kristen is the author of the book “Democrats For Life: Pro-Life Politics and the Silenced Majority.” Recently, Kristen co-authored a paper “Make Birth Free” and the two discuss the merits of this cause, along with the challenges to making this vision a reality.
“I think from the pro-life side if you're serious about ending abortion this is one way that we need to do it.” says Kristen, “And from the pro-choice side, if you really are pro-choice, then we need to support choice. And alleviating the cost of childbirth, instead of funding abortion, should be a priority for both sides.”
Related articles
Elizabeth Bruenig’s article “Make Birth Free”
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Пропущенные эпизоды?
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Gloria speaks with Dr. Laura Masur, an assistant professor in the department of anthropology at The Catholic University of America. Dr. Masur has been one of the archeologists excavating enslaved communities on former plantations owned by the Society of Jesus in Maryland. They ask if and how we can reconcile the early American missionary work, especially of the Jesuits, with the grave sin of slavery.
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Conversations around sex and gender today are rife with acrimony and seemingly irreconcilable viewpoints. It can be hard to find places of agreement or even commonly held definitions. But Elizabeth Sweeny Block and Abigail Favale are two Catholic scholars who have modeled civil debate around sex and gender in the pages of America and do so again this week on “The Gloria Purvis Podcast.”
Dr. Elizabeth Sweeny Block is an associate professor of Christian ethics at Saint Louis University, and Dr. Abigail Favale is a professor at the University of Notre Dame. Together, Elizabeth and Abigail co-authored two articles in America: “How should Catholics think about gender identity and transgender persons?” and “What Does God Reveal in Transgender Bodies?: A Conversation on Catholic Teaching and Gender.”
Animating much of their conversation is Gloria’s question, “How do we come to understand the truth of a person?” And, in light of that truth, how do we foster authentic human flourishing? For instance, what should we make of gender-affirming care, which may include taking cross-sex hormones and surgeries?
“There’s not an objective physiological condition that is being treated by these medical interventions,” Abigail argues. “Instead, you have a healthy functioning, normally sexed, oftentimes fertile body that’s being disrupted and sterilized. And I think that’s at odds with human flourishing.”
Elizabeth counters that this understanding of a “perfectly healthy, functioning, fertile body” at odds with a person’s interior psychology only reasserts a false dichotomy in which body and mind are separate. Instead, Elizabeth posits that “it’s not a healthy functioning body if this person is in distress in this body, if this body is causing pain to this person.”
While Abigail and Elizabeth offer differing perspectives on how to approach transgender medicalization and public policy around facilities like restrooms, they demonstrate great respect for the human person—body and soul—that is unshakably Catholic.
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In honor of Black History Month, Cornel West and Robert George join the Gloria Purvis Podcast to talk about what Black joy and resistance mean to them. West and George are currently touring the country to speak at various universities about the centrality of truth-seeking to higher education. They are both prolific intellectual giants, who require very little introduction, but whose friendship is an inspiration.
Dr. Cornel West teaches on the works of Dietrich Bonhoeffer, as well as courses in Philosophy of Religion, African American Critical Thought, and a wide range of subjects at Union Theological Seminary. He has written 20 books and is best known for his classics, Race Matters and Democracy Matters, and for his memoir, Brother West: Living and Loving Out Loud. His most recent book, Black Prophetic Fire, offers an unflinching look at nineteenth and twentieth-century African American leaders and their visionary legacies.
Robert George is a professor of Jurisprudence and the Director of the James Madison Program in American Ideals and Institutions at Princeton University, a program founded under his leadership in 2000. He has served as Chairman of the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom as well as a presidential appointee of the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights and the President’s Council on Bioethics. In addition, Professor George has served as the U.S. member of UNESCO’s World Commission on the Ethics of Scientific Knowledge and Technology. He was also a Judicial Fellow at the Supreme Court of the United States, and the author of several books.
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When you think Mardi Gras, you might think king cake, colorful beads thrown from parades, and as much debauchery as one can manage before the Lenten season of repentance begins the following day. Maybe you’ve wondered whether Mardi Gras, or Fat Tuesday, is even a Catholic holiday given the day’s deluge of decadence.
Mardi Gras is not only Catholic, it’s French, Creole, African-American, African and Native American. And there are layers to this ornate carnival that reveal a powerful history of Black joy, resistance and rebellion. So tells Nekisha Elise Williams, the author of Mardi Gras Indians, and today’s guest on The Gloria Purvis Podcast.
“There are really two Mardi Gras,” says Nekisha, “and where Black people party and have Mardi Gras is not always the same as where white people party and have Mardi Gras.” For a long time, the segregation between white and Black Mardi Gras was policed by Jim Crow laws. And while there is growing curiosity about what happens at “Black Mardi Gras,” the impact of white supremacy culture still reinforces this historical segregation.
One vibrant and distinct tradition that white mainstream Mardi Gras often misses is that of the Mardi Gras Indians, otherwise known as the Black-Masking Indians. They have a fascinating history that dates back to the 1800s, when Native Americans provided a safe refuge for enslaved Africans who had escaped bondage. This friendship between formerly enslaved Africans and various Native American tribes of the lower Mississippi River Valley helped birth one of the most colorful and unique cultural expressions of Mardi Gras.
Nikesha has done extensive research on the Mardi Gras Indians and describes them as “a group of men, women, children, families, neighbors who at Carnival time in New Orleans mask Indian or mask as the Plains Indians, Native American indigenous people.”
Masking as indigenous has served at least two important purposes. It’s a way to pay homage to their ancestors and their friendship with the Native American tribes that harbored them “while also paying tribute to the warrior culture of African tribes that were enslaved on the continent and brought over to the new world,” says Nikesha.
“It's not just a parade [...] to go out, get drunk, have fun, and like say, ‘Hey, Mister, throw me some beads,’” Nikesha says. “For some of them, it really is a spiritual and religious experience. And that goes down to the songs that they sing, the hand signals that they throw, the dances that they do, and how they operate within their communities as well.”
To learn more about the colorful and defiant history of the Mardi Gras Indians, be sure to listen to this special Mardi Gras episode of The Gloria Purvis Podcast.
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There’s an intellectual movement afoot called “Catholic Integralism.” It’s being discussed in academic colloquia, twitter, and lots of pockets of the church. But how should we understand this movement?
On the Gloria Purvis Podcast, Gloria speaks with Dr. Jason Blakely, a political scholar and professor at Pepperdine University, about this burgeoning trend of Catholic integralism.
Integralism rejects liberalism in the broad sense as “an ideological tradition that holds that individual rights are the basis for the organization of political life,” explains Jason. In place of liberalism, integralism seeks to check individual licentiousness and advance a social order in which political powers are subordinate to the church.
Jason shares Gloria’s skepticism with Catholic integralism, drawing from St. Augustine, who cautioned against uniting the church and state because it almost inevitably leads to a lust for domination and fratricide.
Related links:
A better way to think about the debate about church, state and integralism
Jason Blakely’s article for Commonweal and Chronicle of Higher Education
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Dr. Meg Chisolm is no stranger to mental illness. She’s suffered from several serious bouts of depression that brought her close to taking her own life. She was fortunate to get the help she needed and then went on to become a psychiatrist and professor of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine.
Dr. Meg is an author of a psychiatric textbook and a book on psychiatric illness for patients and families, From Survive to Thrive: Living Your Best Life with Mental Illness.
In her conversation with Gloria, Dr. Meg outlines temperament and personality, along with different kinds of mental illness. While there is a disconcerting stigma still associated with “mental illness,” Dr. Meg says its best understood as “any time when the mind has gone awry, when there's been a problem, developed in your thoughts or in your behaviors, your actions or in your emotions, in your feelings [...] when mental life doesn't go as planned, when it goes awry.”
Dr. Meg provides an insightful mapping not only of a mind gone awry, but she also outlines the key factors in human flourishing, and what role religion can play in our happiness.
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The Super Bowl is one the largest sporting events in the country. Tens of thousands will flock to the stadium and millions will watch from home. However, at events like these, it is essential we not only keep track of the game, but also, the potential victims of human trafficking that are most vulnerable at these large gatherings. In fact, every year 50 million people are trafficked somewhere in the world for either labor or sex.
Joining Gloria on “The Gloria Purvis Podcast” is Sr. Anne Victory, a board member at U.S. Catholic Sisters Against Human Trafficking who has led efforts against human trafficking for over a decade.
According to the U.S. Sisters Against Human trafficking, this crime, “occurs when a trafficker uses force, fraud or coercion to control another person for the purpose of engaging in commercial sex acts or soliciting labor or services against his/her will.”
Sr. Anne describes the most common circumstances in which people get trafficked, profiles of traffickers, and what to look out for. If you suspect someone is being trafficked, please call (888) 373-7888. Even if you’re not certain, Sr. Anne encourages you to report what you see and leave the investigation with local law enforcement who are specially trained for these cases: “just know that they'd rather have you report it and save someone's life than be wrong.”
While the topic of human trafficking is dark, Sr. Anne continues to find hope in her work to end it. “I think one of the ways that I keep the faith is I've seen the difference since when we started fifteen years ago working on this. And now people are a little more aware,” says Sr. Anne, “Even becoming educated about it is doing something, becoming involved in fair trade and understanding what fair trade is and how our purchases make a difference, or how the stock we hold makes a difference.”
Links:
U.S. Catholic Sisters Against Human Trafficking
www.slaveryfootprint.org
America’s interview with Pope Francis
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In July 1794, sixteen members of the Carmel of Compiegne, France, were executed under the guillotine in the final days of the French Revolution’s “Reign of Terror.” They are called venerated martyrs in the Catholic Church, who sang “Salve Regina” and other hymns all the way to their deaths. Their story of faith and perseverance has inspired a novella, movies, and now an opera, Francis Poulenc’s “Dialogues des Carmélites,” drawn from John Dexter’s classic 1977 production.
Gloria interviews soprano Christine Goerke, who plays the Carmeltine prioress Madame Lidoine. They talk about Christine’s own faith journey and preparation for this powerful role, along with Gloria’s spiritual connection as a third-order Carmelite.
The Metropolitan Opera is showcasing Dialogues des Carmélites through January 28, 2023.
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The first March for Life began in the year following the Roe v. Wade Decision (1973). Now that Roe has been overturned by the Supreme Court, what will happen to the March of Life and the pro-life movement more broadly? Today, Gloria speaks with Jeanne Mancini, the President of the national March for Life since the fall of 2012. In this capacity, she proudly directs the small non-profit organization committed to restoring a culture of life in the United States, most notably through the annual March for Life in Washington, D.C., held on the anniversary of Roe v. Wade. Gloria and Jeanne discuss why the march continues to be relevant, misconceptions about the pro-life movement and the co-opting of the movement by extremists.
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Do you squirm every time you listen to a reading from one of St. Paul’s letters calling women to be submissive to their husbands or to remain silent in church? In this episode of the Gloria Purvis Podcast, Gloria digs into the sticky “household codes” that St. Paul outlines in the New Testament with historian Beth Allison Barr, author of the bestselling book, The Making of Biblical Womanhood: How the Subjugation of Women Became Gospel Truth.
Gloria and Beth discuss the Christian Evangelical concept of complementarianism, which is distinguished from the Catholic notion of complimentarity found most especially in Pope John Paul II’s writings. While both terms speak to the differences between the sexes and posits these features as complimentary to one another, complementarianism reinforces a hierarchy of male headship and female submission that “ is simply historic patriarchy,” according to Barr.
One of the many dangers of a theology that centers men is evident in the sexual abuse crisis, where, “the emphasis is on protecting the male leaders instead of protecting the people they harm,” says Beth, and that “the sexual abuse coverup, which went on for decades, was concentrated in churches that lean towards more complementarian understandings.”
There’s also a connection between patriarchy and racism. Gloria notes Jordan Peterson’s “open hostility toward diversity, equity and inclusion” and Beth adds, “Once you buy into a theory of oppression, it is much easier to buy into other theories of oppression. Once you accept the idea that there is something innate about the way some people are born, that makes them able to hold leadership in a way that other people cannot, it makes it much more easy for you to argue even further that not only does it have to do with sex, but maybe it also has to do with skin color.”
Links from show:
Beth’s book: The Making of Biblical Womanhood: How the Subjugation of Women Became Gospel Truth
John Piper on the submission of a wife to an abusive husband: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OkUPc2NLrM
Ravi Zacharias story at Roys report: https://julieroys.com/investigation-finds-ravi-zacharias-reportedly-raped-a-massage-therapist-sexually-molested-others/
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While claiming a Christian and pro-life worldview, Kanye West–now known as Ye–has steeped himself in scandal over blatant anti-Black and antisemitic remarks. In October, he donned a “White Lives Matter” t-shirt with an image of Pope St. John Paul II on the front. Missing from his highly controversial remarks and actions has been any recognition of the harm done to Jews and Black people. That's an important omission, according to Binta Niambi Brown, a talent manager in the music and entertainment industry.
Binta speaks with Gloria about the cognitive dissonance that people can experience when a beloved and influential artist speaks and acts immorally. At times, Christians in the United States can have an anemic understanding of human dignity, they argue, on the one hand praising Ye for promoting the dignity of the unborn, while ignoring his anti-Black and antisemitic rhetoric. They also discuss the importance of holding pop cultural figures with large platforms accountable.
Finally, Gloria and Binta discuss why music is a profound form of spiritual expression, and offer a word of encouragement to Black Catholics in the United States who consider leaving the church.
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Most Catholics only hear the Bible interpreted by men–priests and deacons–in the context of Sunday Mass. Jaime Waters, Associate Professor of Old Testament at the Boston College School of Theology and Ministry, believes that's a disadvantage for the whole church. For the past three years, she's written "The Word" column at America Media. She joins Gloria Purvis to discuss the importance of Bible scholarship and interpretation from women's perspectives.
Looking to Advent, they discuss the "O Antiphons," seven short verses inspired by Scripture and sung in the church during Advent from December 17-23. The antiphons give voice to a people's longing for the coming Jesus into the world in a very special way. Dr. Waters argues that while reading and analyzing a text is important, singing in a prayerful state can be even more impactful on the believer and community.
Links:
Why we sing the ‘O Antiphons’ in the lead-up to Christmas (and not before)
The ‘O Antiphons,’ Reimagined
Follow "The Word" column at America Media
Exclusive Interview with America Media: Pope Francis discusses Ukraine, U.S. bishops and more
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On Nov. 22, 2022, five representatives of America Media, including Gloria Purvis, interviewed Pope Francis at his residence at Santa Marta at the Vatican. They discussed a wide range of topics with the pope, including polarization in the U.S. church, the role of bishops, racism, the war in Ukraine, the Vatican’s relations with China and church teaching on the ordination of women.
Matt Malone, S.J., who is departing as editor in chief after ten years of leading America Media, was also present in the interview. He joins Gloria to break down what the Holy Father said about and to the church in the U.S., how the pope models servant leadership in the Jesuit spirit. They also discuss Father Malone's tenure at America Media, his vocation story, and how the Jesuit charism is incarnated in America's media ministry.
Read America's interview with Pope Francis here: Pope Francis discusses Ukraine, U.S. bishops and more
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Exclusive: Pope Francis denounces polarization, talks women’s ordination, the U.S. bishops and more in a new interview with America Media!
It’s an exciting time for America Media! We've transformed the organization under the leadership of Matt Malone, S.J. into a modern media entity that leads the conversation on faith and culture. There is no doubt that this transformation will continue at America under the leadership of Traug Keller, president and Father Sam Sawyer, SJ, 15th editor in chief.
We're especially grateful to our digital subscribers, who can access all of our award-winning content. But subscriptions alone do not cover the cost to produce our magazine, videos and podcasts, so we are really dependent on fundraising to bridge that gap.
With Giving Tuesday upon us, we hope you will consider a tax-deductible gift of any size to support America Media. Visit our website and click the “Donate Now” button to join our media ministry, which enables us to continue producing The Gloria Purvis Podcast. We truly could not continue to bring you these episodes without your support, so thank you, so much, for your consideration.
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This week on “The Gloria Purvis Podcast,” Gloria speaks with the Rev. Thomas Burke, the pastor of St. Benedict the Moor Catholic Church in Pittsburgh, Pa., about the importance of establishing personal parishes for Black Catholics.
When Bishop David Zubik first announced this personal parish there was a negative response from some white Catholics, who didn’t understand the need for a liturgy and community that reflected the unique cultural legacy of Black Catholics.
To those critical of the parish, Father Burke says: “Go check it out and see why it’s Catholic. It’s not so much going on the bandwagon of wokeness, of separating the Blacks from the whites in creating a personal parish.”
Instead, it is about recognizing the richness that Black Catholics bring to the liturgy, he adds “the atmosphere, the welcomingness, the music, the family aspect of it and to celebrate the culture, I think is a learning lesson.”
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Gloria speaks with Greg Hillis, Professor of Theology & Religious Studies at Bellarmine University in Louisville, Kentucky. In the last few years Prof. Hillis has turned his attention to the life and writings of Thomas Merton, the famous Trappist monk from Kentucky whose literary estate is housed at the Merton Center at Bellarmine University. In addition to his book on Thomas Merton - "Man of Dialogue": Thomas Merton's Catholic Vision - Prof. Hillis is currently working on a book-length biography of Fr. August Thompson, an oppressed Black Catholic priest who was friends with Merton, who shared his life experiences of personal and systemic racism, and who helped inform Merton’s later work “The Black Revolution: Letters to a White Liberal” on racial injustice.
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Archbishop Cordileone returns to the podcast to discuss his opposition to the death penalty.
Archbishop Cordileone: It is past time to strike down the death penalty
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The Bible has been invoked in defense of slavery and to overthrow it. Some saints have confronted slavery, while others have turned a blind eye, or worse, developed theological arguments to support it. The Catholic church has a mixed history, especially when it comes to chattel slavery, and its one we should know about.
This week, Gloria interviews Chris Kellerman, SJ. about his new book,
All Oppression Shall Cease: A History of Slavery, Abolitionism and The Catholic Church.
Chris brings an eye-opening knowledge of history and a faith that wrestles deeply with the horrors of slavery.
“For every saint that we find out was a slaveholder, for every pope that we find out, you know, did something crazy, there's another person who was fighting against it” says Chris. “There's a great sense of that hope that there was a change. And a lot of that change came through people speaking up and good Catholics speaking up and saying, based on my faith I know this isn't right.”
Chris Kellerman is a Jesuit and serves as Assistant for Justice and Ecology of the Central and Southern Province of the Jesuits.
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