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ESG is trendy and often well meaning but is it a threat to Australian business and the economy? What is the real reason for the rise of ESG? Professor Peter Swan of the University of New South Wales joins me and draws on decades of academic research experience into Australian corporate governance and recently on ESG to paint a clearer picture on what is driving it, who really governs Australian corporations (it’s not who you think), what’s gone wrong with corporate governance in Australia and what we do better on than most other countries. We reconsider the Friedman Doctrine and whether it applies today, and how changes in share ownership - such as the rise of index and superannuation funds - may influence Australian corporations.
Stay tuned for two segments at the end on Peter’s early research on consumer durables and monopoly and on his recently published book on his father - Trevor Swan, one of Australia’s greatest economists.
(00:00) Introduction
(1:43) Peter’s concern with Australian corporate governance
(07:41) An example
(10:39) Running a company in a state of ignorance
(16:55) Corporations are voting with their feet
(18:22) The ultimate cause of the shift in corporate governance
(22:06) The link between corporate governance SBS ESG
(25:29) What is the purpose of a corporation?
(29:46) Two paths for ESG
(33:09) Financial gravity as the real source of corporate governance
(44:30) What Australia does better than other countries with respect to corporations
(48:55) Peter’s work on durable goods and monopolies
(57:09) Peter on his father, Trevor Swan
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Professor Alexandre Lefebvre, author of Liberalism as a Way of Life, joins me to discuss liberalism (a companion to episode 004 with Tom Sarrouf). Alex offers his take on Deneen (whether liberalism failed), Fukuyama (whether liberalism is the end of History), how to be a better liberal and practise liberalism, as well as the Aussie phrase that is the best short definition of liberalism out there. He also outlines his interesting new project and invites the listener and reader to consider further ways to practise liberalism. Much to chew on here!
(00:00) Introduction
(00:50) Defining liberalism
(02:49) Comprehensive liberalism vs political liberalism
(05:01) Is liberalism failing?
(10:13) Illiberalism and conceptions of the good
(19:06) A middle ground for the State?
(24:19) The aim of Alex’s book
(26:24) Liberaldom and Christendom
(32:41) Is liberalism fatally flawed, or does it require better practice?
(37:15) Spiritual exercises for liberals
(38:46) Similarities between liberalism and Christianity
(44:41) Spiritual exercises II: the original position and the veil of ignorance
(52:51) How can this be institutionalised?
(55:50) Feasibility of liberalism without deference to authority
(59:06) Common themes in Alex’s body of work
(1:01:19) Wrapping up
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My guest is Tom Sarrouf from the Intercollegiate Studies Institute in the US, an educational institution devoted to educating future leaders for liberty.
Tom’s a proponent of postliberalism, and with liberalism seemingly failing, there's been fruitful contributions from some Christian postliberals. Whether they can create a coherent program and shift the culture is another question.
As you’ll see in this episode, I’m still working through these issues and wouldn't classify myself as a postliberal, but Tom does a great job of laying things out.
We discuss the educating of a new elite that can set America back on course, whether America is a democracy, the deep state, the true dividing line in the US, liberalism vs postliberalism, being educated vs being informed, new coalitions, and Croatia as a demonstration of some postliberal values.
It was a pleasure talking with Tom. Stay tuned for a counter perspective in the near future.
(00:00) Introduction
(00:13) ISI’s purpose
(06:44) The broader counter-establishment educational ecosystem
(11:59) Educating an alternate elite
(16:45) The feeling on the street
(21:08) An institutional success story? The Federalist Society
(24:06) Being educated vs being informed
(32:59) Is the US a democracy?
(39:06) Is the real divide establishment vs anti-establishment?
(44:46) Liberalism
(49:14) Postliberalism
(53:42) Digging deeper on postliberalism
(59:00) A more optimistic view of people than classical liberalism?
(1:04:38) A few pushbacks
(1:10:25) Prudential judgement vs ideology in economics
(1:20:31) Croatia, liberalism as separation, and urban planning
(1:27:49) Building new, authentic coalitions
(1:32:07) Wrapping up
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My good, wise friend Martin Fitzgerald – Head of Philosophy at Redfield College in Sydney – joins me to provide the philosophical side of human ecology.
He provides a definition of freedom that differs from those held today. He speaks on the rise of etiquette coaches, the role of convention in reducing anxiety, a fresh perspective on cancel culture and hatred, episodes of cultural change, the value of the HSC, and more.
He responds to Ross Gittins’ (episode 2) perspective on ethics and religion and to Trisha Jha’s perspective on education (episode 1).
(00:00) Introducing Marty
(00:38) Education, convention and social change
(10:09) Virtue
(14:05) Making virtue second nature
(18:25) Values clarification
(24:05) What is freedom really?
(43:13) The interplay between freedom and morality
(46:16) Speculating on causation
(49:14) Hate and judgement
(51:38) Balance in feminine and masculine virtues
(54:43) Instinct & socialism, civilisation & natural law
(1:01:35) The re-emergence of natural law after WWII
(1:03:05) Establishing normalcy vs rejecting drudgery
(1:04:17) The Bloomsbury Group and cultural change
(1:08:32) Can you separate ethics from religion? Marty responds to Ross Gittins
(1:13:50) Does government interfere too much in education?
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It was a privilege to speak with the legendary economics commentator and journalist over media ethics, the efficiency of more government regulation and intervention, the morality of giving amid big tax and welfare, and government's potential to crowd out relationships. We also discussed a few frameworks for interpreting the government's response to Covid.
(00:00) Introducing Ross
(00:59) Ross's take on human ecology
(03:38) The role of Christianity in society
(06:26) Journalistic ethics, Ross's role, and the media environment
(12:37) The role and scope of government
(21:32) The need for stronger government in the construction industry
(25:14) Frameworks for interpreting the Covid-19 pandemic
(37:59) The deserving and undeserving poor
(40:27) The government, charity and friendly societies
(46:59) The crowding out of society by big government
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Trisha Jha has an interesting view on education – what works, what’s possible, how to improve it. She’s seen the effects of distant decisions on students and teachers and has a clear view on how to improve education in Australia, offering a positive vision for education as social justice and a positive, productive role for government. She has an interesting story and we discuss our experiences in Australian classrooms. Enjoy this first episode of the Human Ecology podcast.
Trisha Jha is a Research Fellow in the Education Program at the Centre for Independent Studies. She taught as a teacher in a rural school in the Teach for Australia program. You can find her on X at @themetresgained and at the CIS website.
(00:00) Introducing Human Ecology
(01:07) Introducing Trisha
(02:03) Trisha's career journey
(09:33) Trisha's intellectual change at university
(12:53) CIS's change model and Education Program shift
(19:58) Trisha's experience in the classroom
(28:52) The gap in initial teacher education
(32:38) My reflection on teaching
(36:29) Trisha's approach to unprepared students
(41:40) A positive, conservative role for government in education
(47:03) Trisha's future
(50:41) Culture, values and expectations
(56:16) Trisha explains her X/Twitter handle
(57:52) Contacting Trisha
