Episodi
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Episode description
In this episode of As Discussed..., I'm joined by Megan Bernard-May - founder of Pollinate XD, co-creator of the PX Dojo, and the person who led people experience at the BBC - to dig into what it means to treat the experience of work the way a UX designer treats a product.
Meg's core argument: people experience is another flavor of experience design. Traditional HR builds around policy, compliance, and risk management. A people experience approach starts somewhere else - finding the overlap between what's good for people, what's good for the business, and what's good for customers, then designing solutions inside that overlap rather than treating them as trade-offs.
What we covered:
Why traditional HR keeps shipping best-practice solutions that don't solve the problem, and what a design-led discovery process looks like insteadMeg's path from architecture to UX to people experience, including the master's in organizational psychology she did to round out the workWhy corporate environments resist experimentation in HR even though product teams A/B test routinely, and what makes an experiment "successful"The BBC and what productivity meant there - why getting clear on that question first matters more than any solutionPay complaints as symptoms - what's usually underneath them when benchmarking already says you're paying the marketA case study from a credit analyst team where dissatisfaction with pay turned out to be a job-design problemWhy dual career tracks still funnel people into management to chase money, and what flatter pay structures unlockSelf-determination theory as a stress test for any HR change - does it add autonomy, competence, and connectedness, or remove them?Handelsbanken, Spotify guilds, and Haier as examples of decentralized models that lend themselves to a people experience approachWhere people experience should sit organizationally - outside HR, as a guild that runs across the businessThree things any HR practitioner can start doing tomorrow: ask better problem questions, stop asking for permission, document the workPeople referenced
Megan Bernard-May - founder of Pollinate XD, co-creator of PX DojoAdam Axton - co-creator of PX Dojo, based in MelbourneDan Pink - "take pay off the table" framingLuke O'Mahoney - "table stakes" framing of centralized HREdward Deci and Richard Ryan - self-determination theoryBooks
Purpose and Work - Jessica ZwaanWhat Pay Costs - James A SeechurnDrive - Daniel PinkOrganizations and resources
Pollinate XD - Meg's consultancy, helping organizations move people experience out of HR and into the leadership functionPX Dojo - three-month cohort program for HR practitioners, structured white-belt to blue-beltHumani - online HR community in Australia where Meg moderates an experience design circle and runs a book clubHandelsbanken - Swedish bank, decentralized operating unitsSpotify - the guild model for cross-cutting disciplinesHaier - the marketplace model of the organization -
In this episode of As Discussed..., I'm joined by Dart Lindsley - founder of 11Fold, host of the Work for Humans podcast, and former head of business architecture for HR at Cisco Systems - to dig into the idea of work as a product.
Dart's core argument: companies have spent a century misclassifying their workforce. Employees fit the definition of customers, people who choose every day whether to keep buying the product called "your job." That reframe rearranges almost everything downstream - recruitment, onboarding, what managers do, how work gets allocated, and what good performance even means.
What we covered:
The category error at the root of modern management, and why scientific management's framing of people as factors of production still shapes practice todayHow employees fit the definition of customers in a multi-sided business, and the route Dart took to that model through business architecture work at CiscoThe limits of autonomy, mastery, and purpose as a design framework, and what Dart found after asking thousands of people what job they hire their work to doNegative transformation - the ways work changes us into people we don't want to be - and why that belongs on the cost side of the ledgerWhat it looks like when teams co-design their own work, including the four-dimensional bubble chart Dart uses to reallocate tasks based on what each person finds rewardingManagers as brokers optimizing flow between two customers, the paying customer and the working customerCommon pushback on the model: does it scale, is it anti-capitalist, and why bother if the existing system seems to workPlus a short detour into the night Dart climbed the Golden Gate BridgePeople referenced
Dart Lindsley - founder of 11Fold, host of Work for HumansEdward Deci and Richard Ryan - self-determination theoryClayton Christensen and Bobby Moesta - Jobs to Be Done frameworkJoe Pine - experience and transformation economiesDaniel Pink - autonomy, mastery, purposeAlfie Kohn - critique of behaviorist management ("pop behaviorism")Antonio Damasio - on emotion and reason in decision-makingJeffrey Pfeffer and Robert Sutton - the knowing-doing gapRicardo Semler - Semco's participative modelBart Houlahan - co-founder of B Lab, partner at Irrational CapitalSandra Loughlin - EPAM, on data architecture and AISemmelweis, Pasteur, Koch, Lister - the germ theory paradigm shift, used as analogy for how slowly new management ideas spreadBooks
Self-Determination Theory: Basic Psychological Needs in Motivation, Development, and Wellness - Richard Ryan and Edward DeciThe Transformation Economy - Joe PineDescartes' Error - Antonio DamasioThe Knowing-Doing Gap - Jeffrey Pfeffer and Robert SuttonDrive - Daniel PinkPunished by Rewards - Alfie KohnPodcasts and websites
Work for Humans - Dart's podcast, 190+ episodes11fold.com - 11Fold's site, including a curated Discord community and an AI search across the Work for Humans back cataloguePX Espresso - Luke O'Mahoney's podcast, where Dart appears as a guestIrrational Capital - the ETF Dart references that tracks how employees feel about work at the companies they invest inAeroPress - the world's best coffee makerConnect with Dart on LinkedIn -
Episodi mancanti?
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Alfie Kohn has spent decades dismantling the assumption that rewards work. His research across education, parenting, and the workplace remains some of the most rigorous and underread work on human motivation - required reading for anyone serious about how people actually behave. Punished by Rewards is the place to start, and it should sit on every compensation professional's shelf.
In this conversation, Alfie joins me to examine why behaviorism still dominates corporate management, what B.F. Skinner got wrong, and why financial incentives so reliably erode the intrinsic motivation they're meant to amplify. We dig into the role of promotion as a control mechanism, what the pay gap signals about corporate culture, and how the sales function exports extrinsic logic into the rest of the organization. We close on the cycle that keeps reward systems entrenched and the difficulty of moving colleagues past it.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Alfie Kohn's work and books07:12 B.F. Skinner and behaviorism15:34 The role of promotion in corporate America22:07 The impact of the pay gap on corporate culture33:27 The vicious cycle of rewards and motivation -
Robyn Shutak is a Partner at Infinite Equity and one of the sharpest minds in equity compensation. She joins me to talk about what happens when equity stops working the way it was designed to - and whether it was ever designed well in the first place.
We get into underwater equity and the real cost of doing nothing about it. Vesting schedules built for a tenure reality that no longer exists. The gap between telling employees they are owners and what the cap table actually says. Why equity in VC-backed companies functions more like a lottery ticket than an ownership stake. And whether giving employees structured choice within their equity grants can close the gap between perceived value and actual value.
We also explore a harder question: if equity compensation depends on stock price cooperation to feel real, what does that tell us about the instrument itself?
Takeaways
Underwater equity is not a passive problem - inaction sends its own signal and concentrates retention risk among the people you can least afford to loseVesting was designed to protect the cap table, not retain employees - and there is little evidence it doesMost employees in VC-backed companies hold less than 20% of shares collectively - calling that ownership is a stretchStructured choice within equity programs can increase perceived value without increasing spendEquity works best when companies treat it as trust, not controlChapters
00:00 Understanding Underwater Equity42:23 Equity Compensation and Volatility51:21 Employee Ownership in VC-Backed Companies01:20:52 The Skeptical Side of Equity Ownership -
ICYMI Kim Minnick, Kim Rohrer, and I lost a debate on pay for performance recently. We were debating against Mark Frein, Jessica Zwaan, and their team captain, Matt McFarlane. The whole thing was moderated by the amazing Jessie Schofer.
So we regrouped to chat about what we might have done better, discuss some of the reactions, and we meandered into other areas too.
We got into the history of how pay for performance became the default - how individualism got baked into compensation design, why corporate culture reinforces it, and what it would actually take to change it. We talked about legal personhood and how the way we define corporate success shapes everything downstream, including how we pay people. We got into bias, social media's role in calcifying bad management orthodoxy, and whether systemic change is even possible given the structures most of us are working inside.
If you enjoy this and other episodes of As Discussed... please remember to subscribe, to like, and to share it with a friend that might enjoy listening - this helps tremendously. -
Stefan Gaertner has been thinking about pay equity longer than most people have known it was a problem. He's a long-time friend, colleague, and one of the sharpest minds in the field - so when I get him on the show, we have a lot to talk about.
In this episode, we get into the uneven global landscape of pay equity legislation and what that patchwork means for multinational employers trying to build coherent compensation programs. We talk pay transparency - what it's actually changing inside organizations versus what companies say it's changing. From there, we dig into the mechanics: point-factor job evaluation, salary band design, and why the methodology underneath your pay decisions matters more than most HR leaders want to admit.
We also spend real time on flat organizational structures and what happens to pay equity when you strip out the career ladder - and whether that's a feature or a bug. Then we close on AI: what it can genuinely do to support pay equity analysis, where human judgment is still non-negotiable, and why handing compensation decisions to an algorithm is a different kind of equity problem.
Chapters
00:00 The State of Pay Equity08:06 Pay Transparency's Real Impact on Business23:06 Point-Based Job Evaluation Systems34:47 Salary Bands and Pay Fairness43:03 Flat Structures, Career Decisions, and Pay Equity1:10:33 AI's Role in Pay Equity -
Luke O'Mahoney is the founder of SapienX, a platform of content, courses, and community for what he calls the "post-HR generation." His central argument is that People teams should operate like Product teams - designing, measuring, and iterating on the employee experience rather than administering it through siloed functions.
We dig into the limitations of the Ulrich model - the framework that split HR into Business Partners, Centers of Excellence, and Shared Services decades ago and has dominated ever since. Luke makes the case that those silos have produced systems that serve the function rather than the people, and that product thinking offers a way out.
We explore the Jobs to Be Done framework applied to HR, the difference between enabling performance and trying to drive it, and why reverse engineering problems matters more than jumping to solutions. I push back on some of the measurement assumptions embedded in product thinking and whether it risks falling into the same traps that broke performance management.
Whether you're a People leader feeling like the current model isn't working, or a compensation professional wondering why your systems aren't producing the outcomes you expected, there's a lot to chew on here.
Contact Luke O'Mahoney:
LinkedIn: Luke O'Mahoney
Website: sapienx.co.uk
Chapters
00:00 Introduction and Post-HR Generation15:42 Adopting a Product Operating Model26:27 Shifting to a Product-Centric Approach33:49 Implementing Product-Centric Thinking45:06 Challenges of Traditional HR Models55:29 Cut the Cape Request01:03:05 Measuring Success01:18:24 Pushing Back and Asking Questions -
This episode with Tom Hill goes into the changing landscape of Salesforce effectiveness, highlighting the shift from a transactional role to a more consultative role. It explores the impact of AI and stakeholder management on sales, as well as the shift to team-based decision-making in the sales process. The conversation delves into the challenges of aligning sales with organizational goals, the complexities of quota setting, and the impact of long sales cycles on sales crediting. It explores the need for collaboration, understanding the organization, and the evolution of sales effectiveness in response to changing market dynamics.
Takeaways
Salesforce effectiveness is shifting from a transactional role to a more consultative roleThe changing nature of sales and Salesforce effectiveness is driven by AI, stakeholder management, and the shift to a team-based decision-making process Sales Quota SettingSales EffectivenessSales Cycle ComplexityChapters
00:00 The Shift to Team-Based Decision-Making in Sales38:52 Aligning Sales with Organizational Goals45:11 Challenges of Quota Setting55:15 Long Sales Cycles and Crediting Challenges -
The conversation delves into the complexities of sales compensation, debunking myths about seller motivation, and exploring the challenges of modern sales models. It emphasizes the importance of understanding customer segmentation, sales process, and product-market fit before designing sales incentives. The role of technology in trapping uncertainty and the significance of data-driven quota setting are also highlighted. The conversation covers the negotiation of sales targets, the role of leadership and authority in sales, dealing with big deals, sales plan design and philosophy, and financial modeling and governance. It emphasizes the importance of understanding the struggles of the sales team, treating salespeople as assets, and involving finance from the beginning of the process. The conversation covers the importance of governance in decision-making, the role of Compensation Cost of Sale (CCOS) in sales compensation, the impact of pay mix and plan complexity, and finally, the motivation behind the book 'What Pay Costs' focusing on pay for performance and innovation.
Takeaways
Understanding the complexities of sales compensation is crucial for effective incentive design.The role of technology in modern sales and the challenges of quota setting require a balanced approach to navigate tensions and achieve sales targets. Understanding the struggles of the sales team is crucial for effective leadershipSalespeople should be treated as assets, not costsInvolving finance from the beginning of the sales plan design process is essential for successful financial modeling and governance Effective governance is essential for decision-makingCCOS plays a crucial role in sales compensationSimplicity, alignment, and motivation are key in incentive plansThe book 'What Pay Costs' explores the impact of pay for performance and the importance of innovationChapters
00:00 Understanding Sales Compensation19:39 Sales Compensation in Modern Sales32:36 Navigating Tensions in Quota Setting38:13 Negotiating Sales Targets44:00 Sales Plan Design and Philosophy51:16 Financial Modeling and Governance01:01:11 The Importance of Governance01:09:34 Pay Mix and Plan Complexity01:20:34 The Book 'What Pay Costs' -
In this episode, I wanted to share with you a sample from the upcoming audiobook recording of my book, What Pay Costs. I also wanted to take the opportunity to introduce myself and share a bit about why I started this podcast, and what you can expect to hear.
What Pay Costs and my guide to sales compensation, Nothing Left to Take Away, are both available on Amazon in physical and Kindle editions, as well as on Kindle Unlimited.
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In this conversation I pepper Dan Walter with questions about the evolution of equity compensation, highlighting the early days of equity distribution and the impact of IPOs on equity compensation. We also explore the challenges in valuing equity, the impact of high valuations on equity compensation, and the use of equity as a wealth creation tool. We discuss the use of equity as a differentiating component of rewards in the tech industry, the concept of employee stock purchase plans, and the evolution of equity compensation in the tech industry. We delve into the challenges and misconceptions surrounding equity as a retention mechanism and the need for improved communication and education around equity. Finally we explore the historical context of equity, its intended purpose, and the evolving landscape of equity compensation in modern organizations.
