Episodi
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What does it take to bring the Gospel to some of the hardest-to-reach places in the world? In this episode of Candid Conversations, Jonathan Youssef sits down with longtime friend Maged Atalla, the International Director of Leading The Way, to explore that question. Maged shares his incredible journey of faith, from growing up in Egypt to playing a pivotal role in global Christian media. He recalls how a small radio project with Dr. Michael Youssef in Monte Carlo blossomed into an international ministry that now reaches millions across the Middle East and North Africa.
Maged offers inspiring insights into how the Gospel has transformed lives in Muslim-majority regions and reflects on how God led Dr. Youssef to create THE KINGDOM SAT and how this moment of obedience has led to the saving of many lives.
Tune in for an inspiring conversation filled with faith, perseverance, and the power of Godâs Word in the most unexpected places.
If you have questions or want to engage a community around this topic, connect with Jonathan and the Candid community:
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/candidpod
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/candidpod
Twitter: https://twitter.com/thecandidpod
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Discerning the Truth can be challenging in a world where definitions are shifting and confusion is common. We're facing intense cultural shifts, from new pronouns to attempts to redefine Christianity. But as Solomon wrote in Ecclesiastes, âThere is nothing new under the sun.â The enemy uses old tricks. Thankfully, we have eternal Truth to guide us.
In todayâs episode of Candid, Jonathan Youssef shares four practical tips to help you navigate todayâs cultural landscape with clarity and conviction:
Be in the world, not of it.Look to the source of Truth.Beware of false teachers.Speak the Truth in love.Join Jonathan as he breaks down each point, offering Biblical insight and practical ways to stand firm in your faith while lovingly engaging the world around you. From understanding false ideologies like Progressive Christianity, Pluralism, and the Prosperity Gospel to being equipped with the unchanging Truth of Scripture, this episode will help you discern and live out the Gospel in todayâs culture.
If you have questions or want to engage a community around this topic, connect with Jonathan and the Candid community:
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/candidpod
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/candidpod
Twitter: https://twitter.com/thecandidpod
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Episodi mancanti?
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Are you facing a mountain of challenges? Do you need help growing in the Christian faith? In this timely reflection, Jonathan reminds us of the power of community and the essential role of friendships in fulfilling Godâs calling in life by exploring the significance of the eight friends mentioned by the Apostle Paul in Colossians 4. These friends, each with unique qualities and roles, supported Paul in his ministry while imprisoned in Rome, and the same mix of qualities is essential for the godly friends we surround ourselves with today.
Drawing from Scripture and personal experience, Jonathan emphasizes that we are not meant to walk alone in our spiritual journey. Instead, we need companions to encourage, support, and challenge us on our faith journey.
Join Jonathan to learn from Paulâs friends and reflect on the questions: What role do you play in the Body of Christ, and who are the friends you need on your journey?
Connect with Jonathan and the Candid community:
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/candidpod
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Twitter: https://twitter.com/thecandidpod
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In this special follow-up episode of Candid Conversations, Jonathan Youssef welcomes Becket Cook, author of "A Change of Affection: A Gay Manâs Incredible Story of Redemption," back to the program for a compelling Q&A session. Becket returns to address listener questions and provide insight into his incredible transformation in Christ.
Listeners will hear Becketâs candid responses on topics such as navigating friendships and family dynamics after conversion, the churchâs role in addressing issues of sexuality with grace and Truth, and the challenges Christians face in todayâs culture. Becket also advises those struggling with identity and faith, offering guidance on supporting loved ones with compassion and unwavering Biblical conviction.
Connect with Jonathan and the Candid community:
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/candidpod
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/candidpod
Twitter: https://twitter.com/thecandidpod
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In this profound episode of Candid Conversations, Jonathan Youssef sits down with Becket Cook, author of "A Change of Affection: A Gay Manâs Incredible Story of Redemption" and host of The Becket Cook Show. Becket shares his powerful testimony of living a homosexual lifestyle until a radical encounter with Jesus transformed his life. Raised in a conservative Christian family in Dallas, Texas, Becket navigated the complexities of his identity and faith, eventually finding his true calling in Christ.
Join us as Becket recounts his journey from Hollywood's elite circles to a devoted follower of Jesus. He offers insight into how the church can compassionately and truthfully engage with issues of sexuality. Becketâs story is a testament to the redemptive power of Godâs love and the importance of unwavering faith.
Don't miss this inspiring conversation, a story of transformation and a guide for churches and individuals to navigate conversations about sexuality with grace and truth.
Connect with Jonathan and the Candid community:
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/candidpod
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/candidpod
Twitter: https://twitter.com/thecandidpod
Transcript:
This transcript recounts Candid Conversations with Jonathan Youssef Episode 261: A Gay Man's Incredible Story of Redemption: Becket Cook
[00:02] JMY: Todayâs guest is a very special guest. It is Becket Cook. Becket has written a book called A Change of Affection: A Gay Manâs Incredible Story of Redemption. He is the host of The Becket Cook Show, which can be found on YouTube. Raised in Dallas, Texas, Becket attended a Jesuit college preparatory school, lived the homosexual lifestyle until the Lord radically called him and drew him to Himself. And now Becket is out to help churches have the conversation about sexuality and help the church navigate. Becket, thank you so much for taking the time to be on Candid Conversations.
[01:13] Becket: Thank you, Jonathan. Good to be here.
[01:17] JMY: Weâve got to start with your story. Itâs profound and amazing. All salvation stories are amazing; yours is unique. Iâd love it if youâd just give us a few minutes and navigate us through your testimony.
[01:39] Becket: Yeah, I mean, Iâm still in shock. Iâm still in shock that this is my story after fifteen years. So, when I was very young I started to notice that I was attracted to the same sex, which was very a disorienting thing, especially at that time when it was very much taboo in Dallas and in my family. My family were Christians and of course, all of my peers and my schoolmates unanimously believed that, I mean, we didnât even have to say it; it was known that homosexuality was just wrong or bad or weird or sinful. And so I had this kind of dark secret. But I was very social in school. I even went steady with girls in seventh and eighth grade, and in high school, I dated three girls, seriously dated them. But it was all the while I knew I wasnât attracted to the girls. It was just like a social thing for me. And so in my junior year at Jesuit, I met a sophomore, and he was dealing with the same thing. He was dealing with the same-sex attraction. So when that happened, the floodgates opened because we became friends, and then like three months or six months, I canât remember how long into our friendship, we basically came out to each other one night at this club.
And when that happened, we just started exploring gay life and gay culture in Dallas and going to gay bars. I was 15, he was 14. I donât know where my parents were, but by the time I was in high school, my parents were so checked out that I could be gone for three days, and they didnât even notice. God bless them, theyâre in heaven now.
So we were going to gay bars in Dallas, not sure how we got into these bars, but we did, and then we were going to this one nightclub called the Stark Club. I mention this because it was such a seminal moment in my life. The Starck Club was very famous in Dallas, and it was designed by Philippe Starck, the French designer, and it was beautiful. It was just so, for lack of a better word, it was very chic. And so we started going to the Starck Club, and the first time I walked in, it was just very grand. There was this grand staircase with a red carpet that went up to these giant doors, and you walked into this beautiful space. And I walked in, and there were gay people, straight people, artists, trans people, drag queensâitâs a whole mix of kind of the subculture, and the whole mix of artists.
And so I walked in and it was like, ah, these are my people!
[05:28] JMY: You felt like you belonged.
[05:29] Becket: Yeah, I belong here. And I started going. And we would go to Starck Clubâit was open Thursday through Sunday, and we would go every night, Thursday night, Friday night, Saturday night, Sunday night we would go. And sometimes I wouldnât get home until 5:00 in the morning. And one time my dad was up. My dad was a lawyer. He was up at 5:00 in the morning (he would always get up at 5:00), and I walked in the front door, and he walked past me and kind of looked at me, and I was like, âHi, Dad.â He didnât even say anything like âWhere have you been?â My childhood was very permissive, for better or worse.
So then, when I went away to college, the same thing happened. I met someone at college who was same sex attracted and then we eventually came out to each other and again I had a confidant, I had someone to talk to because I still wasnât out, but at this point in my life, I wouldnât have described myself as âgayâ because I just thought this was a phase. This was a phase that will probably go away and Iâll probably get married to a woman and have kids.
It wasnât really my identity for this whole time in high school and college until after college I moved to Tokyo with my best friend from college. And we moved to Tokyo because we didnât really know what we wanted to do with our lives. I was premed in college, and then I realized I didnât want to be a doctor, which was bad after four years of studying.
[07:23] JMY: A lot of investment.
[07:25] Becket: You know it was really upsetting. And so I applied to law school, and actually, then, as kind of a backup, I applied to dental school. And so I got into law school and dental school. I was kind of like, âI donât know if I want to do any of this.â So both of us moved to Tokyo to kind of have a gap year, basically, to figure out what we wanted to do. And it was when I was in Tokyo that his friend from Texas came to stay with us, weâll call him âAdam.â Adam was part of the Christo exhibition in Japan. Christo was a very famous artist who recently died, a French artist, but he and his wife used to do these dramatic art projects like covering the Reichstadt in fabric. And they did this thing in Japan where they lined parts of Japan with umbrellas, like yellow and blue umbrellas. They did it in California and Japan.
And so anyway, this guy Adam was part of that exhibition. So he stayed with us for like a week in Tokyo. And it was weird, because when I first met Adam, I had no interest and didnât think anything of it, but by the time he left, we had fallen in love, quote unquote. And so that was the first time Iâd experienced that rush of emotion, that romantic feeling. And then we got into a relationship, and it was my first real relationship with a guy.
And so that was a game-changer, too, because that's when it became my identity, homosexuality became my identity. And I was happy to be gay. I was like, âThis is who I am. This is immutable.â I was thrilled. And while I was in Japan, my sister wrote me a letter asking if I was gay because she had had her suspicions for a long time. And so I wrote her back and I said yes and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. By the way, p.s., donât tell Mom and Dad. Iâll tell them when I get back home. And, of course, she told them immediately when she got my letter, which I was happy about because she did all the heavy lifting for me.
[10:03] JMY: Softened the blow.
[10:04] Becket: Yeah. So by the time I got home, my whole family knew. My family is very conservative, all believers, and so they, especially my siblings, were not happy about this. And my parents werenât either, but my parentsâ reaction was so loving and gracious. My mother, whom I was very close to, of course, was quite surprised, gay son, close mother, surprise, surprise. My mother cried. I walked into the kitchen that first night after I got back from Tokyo, and my mother just started crying, and I knew why she was crying.
And I said, âMom, what's wrong?â And she said, âI heard youâre a homosexual.â
And that's when AIDS was still kind of a death sentence, and so she was terrified, I was terrified about it, and so I just tried to calm her down.
I said, âMom, this is not a big deal. Donât worry about me.â
The next day, my dad came up to me, and my dad is such a manâs man; it surprised him to respond. Because he came up to me and he said, âHey Beck, I heard youâre a homosexual, and you knowââ
[11:32] JMY: Like he read it in the newspaper or something.
[11:36] Becket: Yeah, and so he said, âIs there anything I did wrong as a father? Are you angry at me for this?â He listed three things, and it was basicallyâI canât remember what they wereâdid I not spend enough time with you? Did your brother beat you up or whatever, and I didnât intervene? Are you angry about that?
And I was like, âDad, no. This is not your fault. This is just who I am. Itâs not a big deal.â
And that was kind of the end of the conversation with my parents. They never brought it up again. And what they did was so genius. Because I moved to L.A. So, when I got back from Tokyo, I realized I was not going to grad school; I was moving to Los Angeles because a lot of my friends moved here, and I was like, âIâm going to pursue writing and acting. And so I moved to L.A. My dad was so confused when I told him. It was like a couple of weeks before law school. I was enrolled in law school, and I was like, âDad, Iâm moving to L.A. tomorrow.â
And he was like, âHuh?â He was so confused. And so I moved to L.A. and I had this group of friends that were brilliant in L.A. When I got here, I had this built-in group of friends because several of my friends from high school already lived here, and they all came from Brown and Princeton and moved with all their friends to the West Coast and to L.A. to work in Hollywood, in showbiz. My group of friends were so smart and funny and brilliant and ambitious. And they all were movers and shakers. All those people, guys, girls, straight, gay, the whole mix, the same people run this town now; they run Hollywood. So whatever youâre watching on Netflix or whateverâ
[13:51] JMY: Theyâre behind it.
[13:52] Becket: And in fact, the Jeffrey Epstein whatever, Filthy Rich, was produced by one of my dear friends from back in that time. Anyway, so I had this great group of friends, I was out, and we all wanted to make it in Hollywood, which they were allâmy friends were becoming huge stars or becoming huge directors or writers overnight. I mean, it was wild to see how quickly they became successful. Minnie Driver was a dear friend, and she did Good Will Hunting with Matt Damon. Suddenly, she was a movie star, and this was happening to all of my friends. Like Mariska Hargitay was Jayne Mansfieldâs daughter, but nobody really knew her, but then she gotâI drove her to her audition for Law & Order: Special Victims Unit, and sheâs still on the show twenty-three years later. Sheâs made a fortune on that show. Well, I wonât tell that part about Mariska, but weâre still friends.
But this was happening to all of my friends. We all wanted to make it in Hollywood; we all wanted to find true love, and I cycled through five serious, serious boyfriends over the years in L.A., live-in boyfriends. And then we all wanted to have extraordinary experiences, which we were doing in spades because my friends were all in the business. And the guy I just talked about was Diane Keatonâs producing partner. So we were always invited to everythingâthe Grammys the Oscars, the Emmys, the Golden Globes, the afterparties, to movie premiers every week. I was kind of in the mix.
I met everyone in this town, literally everyone. I mean, name the person. I had dinner with Tom Hanks, Meryl Streep and many, many other people. Hung out at Drew Barrymoreâs, went to Princeâs house where he performed a concert in his backyard for three hours, hung out with Paris Hilton at her house, and went to her wedding engagement. For years, this was my life.
And then I was successful a little bit, and I acted. I was successful at commercial acting, and I did a couple of indie films, one was at Sundance, and that wasnât really taking off. The writing was difficult. I sold a couple of projects that didnât make it to series, so then I ended up becoming a production designer in the fashion world. I just fell into it with The New York Times Magazine because my friend was the editor for it. And so that became my career, doing fashion shoots, these super-high-end fashion shoots. And I did that for a very long time, probably twenty years, seventeen years, Iâm not sure.
And so after the years of all of this and years of going to all of these fun things and experiencing all these things, I just started to feel the law of diminishing returns and I just felt like, What is this all about? I canât keep going to these dinner parties and going to these events. And it all came to a head at Paris Fashion Week in March of 2009. I used to go to Fashion Week in New York and Paris and that particular week I had gone to a bunch of the runway shows and a lot of them had afterparties, and I was at this one afterparty in this club called Regine, in the middle of Paris, a legendary place. The owner just died recently. But I was there, and everyone from the fashion world was there.
I was sitting with Rachel Zoe, whoâs a fashion girl and has a TV show, and her husband, Roger, and I just remember drinking champagne and looking out over the crowd, and everyone was dancing and having the best time of their life, and I just felt such an overwhelming sense of emptiness. I was like, whoa, where did that come from? So, I ghosted the party and went back to the apartment Iâd rented in [unintelligible] and I was up all night in a panic about my future. I was like, what am I going to do for the rest of my life? This isnât satisfying me anymore. I canât just keep going to parties and fabulous things and traveling the world. Yeah, it was fun for a long time, but itâs not doing it for me anymore. And I knew that Christianity was not an option because I was gay, so I canât pursue that, so what am I going to do? So I was very, very troubled.
[20:07] JMY: Can I ask, did that thought enter your mind, the pursuit of faith? Was that a cognizant thought or was that just sort of part of the narrative? Did you sit there and take an account and think perhaps ...?
[20:26] Becket: Well, no. I knew that from my entire life.
[20:31] JMY: It was always there as a separation.
[20:33] Becket: Godâs not an option for me. And by that time in my life I was a practical atheist. All of my friends were atheists (they still are, most of them, my old friends). And I just, by that time in my life, I really just believed or felt like the Bible was an ancient myth, like any other ancient myth. God was not real. It was weird. It was a weird kind of disconnect because I believed my familyâs faith was real, which was interesting. So when I would go home to Dallas, it was weird. They would talk about their faith, they would pray, and I could sense that it was real, but I just felt like it could never be something for me becauseâ
[21:21 JMY: Itâs like a compartmentalization, right? This works for you; that wonât work for me. Interesting.
[21:28] Becket: And so six months later in L.A. I was at a coffee shop with my best friend, who still is gay, although weâre not nearly as close, in fact, we barely see each other, if ever, because of this. But I was with my best friend, and we were chatting, hanging out at our favorite coffee shop in Silverlake, and we looked over, and there was a group of young people with Bibles on the table. There were five physical Bibles on the table, which is a shocking sight to see in L.A. But not only L.A. but Silverlake, which is a super progressive part of L.A.
We were stunned because my friend was an atheist as well. He was culturally Jewish, a secular Jew from New York, and it was just like we were shocked. But I was intrigued because of that night in Paris six months before. I was kind of intrigued about what this Christian thing was, and I wanted to explore it.
So my friend said, âTalk to them. See what theyâre doing.â
And I was like, âNo, I donât want to talk to them!â
And anyway, I ended up turning to them, and I always say this, itâs like a Christianâs fantasy come true when a gay atheist turns to you and says, âTell me all about Christianity.â And so we got into this conversation for like an hour or two. It was a long conversation. And I said, âWhat is your faith? Like what do you believe? I donât remember. Just tell me what you believe.â
And they were very competent with the Scriptures, and they knew what the Gospel was and were very knowledgeable. And they said they went to a church in Hollywood called Reality L.A., an evangelical church. And with my friends back in the day, evangelicals were the enemy. They were somewhere to the right of Atilla the Hun. But it didnât bother me. So I, of course, get to the question and I ask them, âWhat does your church believe about homosexuality?â
And I kind of expected this answer, so it wasnât shocking. They said, âWell, we believe itâs a sin.â Of course, that was 2009. Now, who knows what people will say.
[24:27] JMY: Itâs a grab bag now.
[24:29] Becket: I wasnât surprised by their response, but I was surprised by mine because I just kind of accepted that, and I didnât protest. And itâs because of that night in Paris. I was open to hearing something different. I was just open at that point. God, obviously, was working with me.
So they invited me to their church the following Sunday and I said, âI donât know. Just give me the address and Iâll think about it.â
So I had a whole week to think about it. And it was kind of a big deal because if any of my other friends, all my other atheist, Hollywood friends, found out that Iâd gone to an evangelical church, it would have been super embarrassing, and they would have thought I was crazy. So I was debating all week: Should I do this? What if nothing happens? What if itâs just fake and what if itâs not real?
But that following Sunday I woke up and I just was like, Iâm going to do this. And I got in my car, drove to this high school auditorium where it meets on Sunset Boulevard, and I walked in. Before I walked in, I put the idea of homosexuality as my identity in this imaginary white box and put it on an imaginary shelf before I walked in. It was kind of weird. I donât know how that happened.
And then I heard the worship music, which kind of freaked me out a little bit a first because I was like, Oh my gosh, Christian music, because I just saw this True Blood episode where (it was an HBO show that was disgusting, but anyway they satirized evangelical Christian worship music. And so I was like, Oh, this is weird.
[26:38] JMY: That's not hard to do.
[26:39] Becket: Yeah, exactly. But then it was actually nice, the musicâs nice. And I sat down by myself, I found a seat by myself, and the pastor came out and started preaching on Romans chapter 7 for an hour, and that's when everything started happening. Everything he was saying, every word he was saying, every sentence he was saying was resonating as truth in my mind and my heart and I didnât know why. I was literally on the edge of my seat, totally riveted to the sermon and to him, his speaking. And I was just like, What? This is true. What is he saying? I remember thinking, âThis is the Gospel? This is good news!â
And then after the sermon there were people on the sides of the auditorium on the prayer ministry that you could go get prayed with, and after his sermon thereâs another thirty minutes of worship time. So I walked over to this guy, which I reluctantly walked over to this guy on the side because, again, I was embarrassed to do this because I knew the people who had invited me there were probably watching me. And so I walked over to this guy and I said, âHey, I donât know what I believe, but Iâm here.â And he said, âOkay, let me pray for you.â
And he prayed for me, and it was so loving and caring, and I was like, How does this random straight dude care about me so much?
[28:14] JMY: Right.
[28:16] Becket: Anyway, I went back to my seat and everyone else in the auditorium (there were a thousand people in the auditorium) everyone else was standing and singing and worshiping. And I sat down because I was just so overwhelmed by the sermon, by the music, by the prayer, and as soon as I sat down, the Holy Spirit just flooded me. I mean, it was like a Road to Damascus moment. God revealed Himself to me in the most powerful way. It was like God said, in my mind, God said, âIâm God. Jesus is my Son. Heaven is real, hell is real, the Bible is true. Welcome to my kingdom.â
And I just burst into tears. I was doubled over, heaving and crying and crying for twenty-five minutes. And it was the most cathartic cry Iâve ever had. Everything came out. I was crying over the conviction of sin, but also the joy of meeting the king of the universe, Jesus Christ. And then I got home after the service. I donât really know how I made it home because I was such a wreck, and I got into bed to take a nap. And again, God did it again. God was like, âHere, hereâs some more Bible.â
And I just, again, I just immediately, it was so real. It was like Godâs presence was rightâit was there. And I burst into tears again and I was bawling in my bedroom, jumped out of my bed and was like, âGod, you have my whole life, Iâm yours. Iâm done.â
In that moment I knew that homosexual behavior was a sin. I knew that it was wrong. I knew that dating guys was not my identity anymore and I knew that dating guys was not a part of my future. But I didnât care at all, because I had just met Jesus. And Iâm like, Iâm going with that guy, forget those guys.
And that was September 20, 2009, and Iâve never looked back. And Iâve never felt like life is unfair. Because Iâm single and chaste, and Iâve never felt like life is unfair for me or like Iâm being cheated out of something. I just feel like I canât believe that God had mercy on me and Iâm in the Kingdom of God. And I have, by the way, eternal life, which is cool to have. So yeah, that's the story.
[31:09] JMY: Oh, itâs such a wonderful story, just even the way you give us the snapshots of those moments of what you thought you knew what you wanted and you know now the Spirit was preparing you and doing the work of tilling the soil of your heart to culminate in that moment. But as we know, that's not the end of the story. Your story continues on. And so I wonder if we could just talk a little bit about your family, how your family interacted with you. So a number of our listeners will be people who have family members, friends who are near to them who are living this lifestyle and they donât know what to do, they donât know what to say. Do I say a lot? Do I say a little? Do I say nothing? Where do I go?
And I know some of that will be kind of case by case, but I think it will be helpful to hear what was it that the interactions of your friends and family who were believers? How did they sort of walk this out with you?
[32:35] Becket: Yeah. My family ... Well, first of all, you know, because I moved to L.A. I was very disconnected from my family. But my parents, I was very close with my mother. We talked on the phone all the time. She came out and visited many times. My family was just kind of very hands-off because there was really nothing they could do. I was an adult, I lived in L.A. What would they do, come hunt me down and drive me to church?
My parents were just brilliant. I just loved how they responded to and dealt with it. Because I did this episode on my show where I recently discovered a typed prayer that my mother did. My sister-in-law sent me a text, saying, âHey, I just found this prayer that your mother typed to God basically, and I found it in an old box from some of your motherâs things.â And she sent me this prayer. And that's what my parents did. They just loved me and prayed for me.
My mother and this prayer are amazing; itâs like twenty-four points. And the first point, because my mother knew, I guess, which was shocking to me, she just knew instinctively that she wasnât going to convince me not to be gay. So, she went straight to the throne room of the grace of God. She knew it was a spiritual battle. I wish I had the prayer with me right now. She said, âIn the all-powerful name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we come against the enemy with the sword of the Spirit, the Word of God.â
And when I read this prayer recently when I got it, I was stunned because my mother was praying for me all this time, but she never told me. Because if she had told me, âHey Becket, Iâm praying for you,â it would have been a disaster because I would have been like, âWhy are you praying for me? I donât need prayer. This is who I am. Stop praying.â It would have upset me, so she never said that. My dad never said that.
My sister-in-law, who is in my book, Kim, the way she dealt with it was brilliant, too, because whenever I would go to Dallas for the holidays, she would call me. Sheâs an evangelical Christian, and I knew where she stood on this issue, too, but she would call me all the time, which I was kind of like, Why is Kim calling me? Why does she want to hang out with me? She knows Iâm gay and sheâs a super-conservative Christian. She would call me and invite me to coffee, and we would hang out. And I would talk about my boyfriends, she would talk about God and what was going on in her life, and she never once pulled out the Bible and said, âHey Becket, you know in Leviticus 18 âŠâ She never, ever once did that. She just loved me.
And then she prayed, unbeknownst to me, she was praying this verse over me for twenty years. In Acts 26:18, when Paul is in front of King Agrippa, and heâs talking about how God sent him to preach to the Gentiles, he says, âto open their eyes so that they may be turned from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God. That they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those sanctified by faith in Me.â
So she was praying for me, my family members were praying for me, I get the impulse for parents, family members, friends, the immediate impulse is âI want to fix this. I want to fix the problem.â That rarely, if ever, works. However, there is an exception, a caveat Iâll get to. But the best thing you can do is just be diligent in prayer and go straight to God. Because it has to be a supernatural thing. The Holy Spirit has to convict a person. Thereâs no other way. Otherwise, itâs just behavior modification.
[37:31] JMY: Praise the Lord. Praise God that itâs His work and not ours because weâd screw it all up.
[37:37] Becket: Yeah, exactly. However, because of this new sort of generation of social contagion of LGBTQ+, you know, Brown University 40 percent of the student bodyâthis just makes me laughâ40 percent of the student body identifies as LGBTQ. I mean, that is laughable. When I was in college, it was about 1 percent.
[38:05] JMY: Now everyone is.
[38:06] Becket: Yeah, now itâs super popular. So I came out as gay at the wrong time, and now I came out as Christian at the wrong time. [unintelligible]. But anyway, so with that aspect of it, when youâre a teenager just suddenly claims, âIâm LGBTQ,â or âIâm pansexual,â or âIâm nonbinary,â âIâm queer,â I think in those cases there should be, there could be some pushback from the parents in terms of saying, âLook âŠâ Because this happened with me with a young woman, a teenage girl who came up to me at a conference and said, âIâm pansexual and nonbinary.â
And I said, âWhy? Why are you?â She didnât have an answer for me, and I said, âAre you that way because you want attention, popularity, street cred? Why do you think youâre... because when I was your age, there was no such thing, so why do you think youâre this way?â
And she just started welling up with tears, and she needed, I just sensed in that moment she needed to be pushed back on. And later that day she ended up breaking down, getting prayed for my somebody, and she came to Christ.
[39:39] JMY: It was a crisis moment for her, not a ⊠it had not become a true identity where she had been encapsulated in something. She seemed confused more than anything. I mean, obviously, you could make that argument for anyone.
[39:55] Becket: Yeah, this young teenage boy was like, âOh, and Iâm asexual.â And I was like, âYou havenât even gone through puberty yet.â
So yeah, I do think that when it is this kind of contagion aspect, Iâve done episodes on this, and I talk about this. You can trace exactly how we got to where we are in the culture from obviously from if youâve read Carl Truman, you can go back to Jean-Jacques Rousseau, but even going back to the sexual revolution in the Sixties or the gay movement that started in 1969 at the Stonewall Inn, you can trace so clearly how weâve become indoctrinated into believing the lies of the world. And itâs just so obvious to me, and itâs like, just the TV shows, Will & Grace and Queer Eye for the Straight Guy and Brokeback Mountain and all these gay-themed shows and movies were so powerful in the culture, and it changed so many peopleâs minds on this issue.
Of course, I was thrilled at the time. When I was living that life, I was thrilled. I was friends with Sean Hayes on Will & Grace, and I was friends with many of the people who created these shows.
[41:33] JMY: They were changing the narrative.
[41:34] Becket: Yeah. And it was like Madsen and Kirk, the book After the Ball, they published. These two Harvard guys, graduates, published a book called After the Ball, and I wish I had it right here. Whereâs my copy? Anyway, the book was published in 1989, and basically, it was about how to normalize homosexuality in America. It was the subtitle of the book. And everything in that book has come true. Everything they said in that book has come true. Basically, it was like talking about homosexuality until it was thoroughly tiresome. That was one of their points. Another one of their points was to make heterosexuals feel like you are a victim, and theyâll come to your side and to your aid.
And so all these things have come to pass, and that's why, even in the church, people are falling for this and caving to it, caving to the culture and buying this lie. And again, I challenge people to, okay, would you be ⊠would you be thinking this way fifty years ago? Would you be thinking this way a hundred years ago? So obviously, the cultureâ
[43:16] JMY: Not critically thinking.
[43:117] Becket: Obviously, like the culture has influenced you. Because some of my friends, some of my high schoolâI say this all the timeâin my high school, everyone believed it was a sin, it was wrong, in the girlsâ school, in the boysâ school. Now some of those same people are like allies, LGBTQ allies, and itâs like, gee, I wonder what's happened over the last thirty years? Maybe itâs the power of persuasion from movies and TV, which I get. It is very powerful.
And so yeah, that's why I think with some cases, in some cases it is good to say, âHey, why donât we walk through the last fifty years and see how it has shaped what we believe?â And so that can be helpful, too.
[44:17] JMY: Youâre uniquely gifted, coming out of that world and into the Christian world, to have a voice to the church. We even laughed about the fact that some churches wouldnât even have you to come and speak because youâre kind of against them.
What are the things that youâre putting in front of churches and trying to coach them through or equip them with? How do we deal with the culture? How do we deal with our young people who are falling into it or our children who maybe are saying and asking these questions? It sounds like thereâs a level of asking good questions and pushing back, as youâve just given us examples. But what are some ways youâre helping the church navigate all this?
[45:27] Becket: There are so many different ways. But like Jesus was the master at balancing grace and truth publicly. I read through all four Gospels, not often, in one sitting, and I just watch what Jesus does and how He interacts with tax collectors, prostitutes, and sinners. And at the woman at the well, first of all, Heâs talking to a Samaritan woman, which is crazy for a Jewish man to do, and Heâs so loving and kind to her. And she, you know, Heâs like, âOh, go get your husband.â And sheâs like, âOh, I donât have a husband.â And Heâs like, âYeah, you were married five times.â
[46:17] JMY: âThe one youâre with now isnât your husband.â
[46:19] Becket: âAnd the one youâre with now isnât your husband.â So Jesus doesnât compromise the truth, but He also is super gracious and grace-full. That's what I see in the church is I see this happen all the time where parents when their kids come out, they love their kidsâand I get itâlike they love their kids so much that they suddenly change their theology and become [Overlapping voices] in their theology. And itâs like, no, that's not the answer, because if my parents had affirmed and said, âOh, Becket, youâre fine,â I would not have respected them, number one.
And my family when I got saved, the first people I contacted were my family because they never lied to me. I talk about this in my book, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego; they refused to compromise Godâs Word by one iota. And they knew that they were going to go into a fiery furnace. They were not willing to compromise Godâs Word. And so that's my main thrust to the church is donât ever give up your convictions on this issue, but love your neighbor, your child as generously as you can, love them, love them. And the real key is to pray for them.
The worst thing you can do is affirm them and say, âOh, I donât think itâs a sin anymore,â because that is leading them down a path of eternal destruction. That is the meanest, cruelest thing you can ever do to a child or anyone is say that to them. And so that's partly what I try to convey to churches. Also, I try to, sometimes, talk about what I go through; I spend a very long time going through every turning point in the history of the gay movement and how it has affected the culture and affected us.
[48:48] JMY: I mean, just quickly if youâve given that talk enough times, what kind of the high points of that? If you had to kind ofâmaybe you havenât prepped for that, but if you could just hit a couple of those high points for us.
[49:02] Becket: The first high point was the Stonewall Inn in 1969, when police raided it. Because it was illegal to be gay in 1969 in the country. And so police raided the Stonewall Inn, which was a gay bar in the West Village in New York, and then there were riots, like three nights after that there were three nights of riots. That was June 28th. That's why Pride Month is in June. It used to be just one day, but now itâs a whole month. Pretty soon itâll be all year, but that's a whole thing.
[49:39] JMY: Perpetuity.
[49:40] Becket: Yeah. And so that was a huge turning point because the year following, San Francisco, L.A., New York, I think Chicago had gay pride marches. That's when the pride marches started. They used to be called marches and now theyâre parades.
[49:59] JMY: Like a protest.
[50:00] Becket: Exactly, and that was a huge turning point of the gay movement. Then the AIDS crisis was a huge turning point because that's when the culture, right or wrong, the culture started to see gay men as victims, and so that was a huge, huge turning point. And there were so many movies, like Philadelphia, with Tom Hanks in that, and there were so many movies about that issue. And, interestingly, AIDS was something that propelled the gay movement forward. You would think it would do the reverse, but it propelled it forward. And so that was a big deal.
And then in the NinetiesâI mean, Iâm skipping ahead of a bunch of stuffâbut the Nineties, Will & Grace, Ellen, the sitcom with Ellen DeGeneres, she came out as a lesbian on the show, her character came out as a lesbian. And Will & Grace, itâs like these guys are hilarious. I mean, what could be wrong with this? Soâ
[51:22] JMY: Yeah, theyâre approachable,
[51:23] Becket: Theyâre cool. What could be wrong with this? And then a significant turning point wasâoh, and then Sex and the City was a big deal in the Nineties. There was a gay character on that show. And Sex and the City was created by Darren Starr. I know Darren. And a lot of the writers on the show, the showrunner, is gay. Anyway, so what was interesting about Sex and the City is there were a lot of gay male writers on that show, and they were turning these women into gay men. The way these women had one-night stands and all this stuff. My friends and I would joke about it, like these are gay guys but in womenâs bodies. This is crazy. Itâs hilarious. So that show was a big game-changer.
And then Queer Eye for the Straight Guy, that was major because that was the first timeâI remember when that came out in 2003, I think, and it was five gay guys giving clueless straight guys makeovers. And that's when not only women and gay guys were watching, but that's when straight guys started watching because their girlfriends were like, âOh my gosh, honey, youâve got to watch this show; itâs brilliant!â
I remember telling a good friend of mine at the time, âThis is going to change everything. This show is going to change everything.â And it did.
And then you can skip to the, I mean, there were a lot of things, but you can skip to the legalization of gay marriage in 2015.
[53:18] JMY: Yeah, Obergfell, sure.
[53:19] Becket: That, of course, that's where we are now. And then now, of course, every cityâ
So I lived right next to Beverly Hills, and Beverly Hills is very conservative because itâs mostly Persian Jews who live in Beverly Hills. Theyâre a very conservative group of people. They are very family oriented. And I was riding my bike the other day, and there was a pride flag painted on the sidewalk, in the middle of the street, an intersection, a pride, yeah, just like a pride thing. And I was shocked because I was like, wow, that's interesting that Beverly Hills would do this, because I know the mayor is conservative.
But what I subsequently found out is that just like corporations have these rating systems where you have to be [Overlapping voices] you supportâ
[54:24] JMY: Cities have them as well. Wow.
[54:25] Becket: They get rated by I think itâs the Human Rights Campaign, HRC. They get rated, so Beverly Hills doesnât want to lose tourism, so they will go along with it and put a pride flag on the street. And so now itâs so ubiquitous, and I donât even know it at this point. I donât even know at this point how an unbeliever, or even some believers, can even believe that homosexual behavior is still a sin after all that's going on in the culture now. Itâs a rare thing, even for Christians now, to believe that itâs still a sin.
[55:15] JMY: itâs almost like going back to first-century Christianity, where weâre just so countercultural and so bizarre. How could you think thereâs only one God in Rome? And itâs like we have all this plethora of gods? It is a sense of returning to thinking youâre so backward and all this sort of thing.
But the Lordâs in control, and He knows what Heâs doing, and Heâs raised individuals such as yourself, and as we mentioned before, Rosaria and others, who are helping the church think critically and think helpfully and equipping and weâre so grateful for the work that the Lordâs doing in you. And so I want to say, Becket Cook, Iâm so grateful for our time together and pray the Lord would bless your ministry.
[56:24] Becket: Thank you, Jonathan. I appreciate it. And Iâm really looking forward to coming to Atlanta and meeting you guys in person.
[56:33] JMY: Absolutely.
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In this thought-provoking episode of Candid Conversations, Dr. Jonathan Youssef explores the pervasive cultural narrative that prioritizes feelings, personal pleasure, and subjective truths above all else. Our malls display it, our shows advise it, our commercials glorify it, and our universities disseminate it. Every aspect of our culture proclaims that our feelings matter most in life. But how should Christians respond to this secular storm that seeks to silence the message of the Gospel?
Join Jonathan as he explores the growing pressures on Christianity in the Western world and reminds listeners of the global spread of the Christian faith that defies cultural trends.
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Jonathan sits down with renowned author and teacher Nancy Guthrie. Together, they explore the transformative benefits of studying Scripture through holistic Biblical theology, emphasizing the importance of focusing on God rather than ourselves to gain a deeper and more accurate understanding of the Bible.
Drawing from her rich personal experiences, including her publishing career and the heart-wrenching loss of two children, Nancy shares how these events deepened her love for God's Word. As a respected author, host of the Help Me Teach the Bible podcast at the Gospel Coalition, and a dedicated Bible teacher in her local Nashville church, Nancy leads her widely acclaimed Biblical Theology Workshop for Women at various conferences worldwide. Together with her husband, she founded Respite Retreats, providing solace and support to grieving couples.
In this compelling episode, we explore the diverse aspects of God's character and His steadfast love. Be inspired to shift your perspective from personal application of Scripture to discovering the profound Truth about who God is and what His attributes reveal about His essence.
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Raising children to know, love, and follow Christ in today's challenging culture is a daily endeavor. How can families stay committed to Christ and guide their children to become godly adults?
Join Jonathan in this episode of Candid Conversations, where he shares valuable insights into biblical parenting and discusses five essential Biblical principles for following Christ as a family.
Don't miss out on this meaningful episode. Listen, share, and help families deepen their relationship with our Lord and Savior.
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She faced false accusations, family betrayal, and deep loss, forcing her to abandon her entire life. Despite all this, she chose forgiveness and, through God's grace, experienced profound redemption in her darkest moments.
Jonathan's guest today had countless reasons to withhold forgiveness and remain bound by the trauma of severe abuse. Yet, she found that true freedom and forgiveness are inseparable.
In this episode, Jonathan Youssef interviews a remarkable woman who will remain anonymous to protect her identity. She bravely recounts her escape from a life of abuse and oppression in a third-world country to finding freedom in America. Through Christ, she discovered forgiveness for herself and others and God's plan for her future.
Don't miss this powerful testimony of God's relentless pursuit and redemptive power available to all believers in Christ!
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This week's engaging episode features a conversation with Os Guinness, a profound advocate for faith, freedom, truth, reason, and civility. Os is an esteemed author and social critic and the great-great-great-grandson of Arthur Guinness, the famous Dublin brewer. With a bibliography exceeding 30 books, he provides insightful perspectives on our cultural, political, and social environments.
Born in China during World War II to medical missionary parents, Os experienced the height of the Chinese revolution in 1949 and was expelled along with many foreigners in 1951. He later earned his undergraduate degree at the University of London and completed his D.Phil in the social sciences from Oriel College, Oxford. He currently resides in the United States.
In this episode, Jonathan and Os delve into Scripture and discuss Os' latest book, The Magna Carta of Humanity. They explore global perspectives, including Os' views on America's polarization crisis, the recent changes in the UK with the new King, and the evolving role of the âDefender of the Faithâ in the monarchy. Os also shares fascinating stories about his remarkable family history, from Christian brewers to pastors to his journey as a Christian author.
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TRANSCRIPT:
The following is a transcript of Episode 256: Revolutionary Faith and the Future of Freedom: Os Guinness (Reprise) for Candid Conversations with Jonathan Youssef.
[00:01] JONATHAN: Today it is my special privilege to have Os Guinness on the program with us. Os is an author and social critic. Heâs written untold amounts of books. Heâs just like Dad, and it seems you have a new book out every six months or so, Os. Is that sort of the pattern, you get two out a year?
[00:24] Os Guinness: Well, usually one a year, but COVID gave me the chance to write a lot more.
[00:28] JONATHAN: Oh, well, I love it. Many of our listeners will, of course, be familiar with you, but there may be a few out there who donât. We have somewhat of an international audience, and I know that you have a very international background, having been born in China and raised in China and educated in England. Thereâs a couple of things. Iâm sure people are seeing the name Guinness and wondering is there a connection with the brewery? And of course, there is. But I wonder if youâd tell us a little bit of your family history and then weâll get to your own personal story.
[01:00] Os Guinness: Well, youâre right. Iâm descended from Arthur Guinness, the brewer. My ancestor was his youngest son. He was an evangelical. He came to Christ, to faith, under the preaching of John Wesley in the revival that took place in the late 1730s, early 1740s. So he called himself born again back in those days and founded Irelandâs first Sunday school, which of course, in this days was a rather radical proposition, teaching people who couldnât go to ordinary schools. And from the very beginning, care for the poor, for the workers and things like that were built into the brewery and the whole family status in Dublin. So that was the ancestor, and Iâm descended from a branch of the family thatâs kept the faith ever since. My great-grandfather, Arthurâs grandson, at the age of 23, was the leading preacher in the Irish revival of 1859. And we have newspaper accounts of crowds of 25,000, 30,000, and of course no microphone. Heâd climb onto the back of a carriage and preach and the Spirit would fall. Ireland was not divided in those days, but in that part of the country, in the year after the revival, there was literally only one recorded crime.
[02:33] JONATHAN: Unbelievable.
[02:34] Os Guinness: This shows you how profound revival can be.
[02:37] JONATHAN: Isnât it?
[02:39] Os Guinness: His son, my grandfather, was one of the first Western doctors to go to China. He treated the Empress Dowager, the last Emperor, and my parents were born in China so I was born in China. So Iâm part of the family thatâs kept faith ever since the first Arthur.
[03:00] JONATHAN: You had mention that this is a branch of the family. Is there a branch of the family thatâs gone a different trajectory?
[03:08] Os Guinness: Well, for a long time the brewing family was strongly Christian, but then eventually, sadly, wealth probably undermined part of the faith. But as I said, my family has kept it. They often say there are brewing Guinnesses, banking Guinnesses, and then they call them the Guinnesses for God or the poor Guinnesses.
[03:36] JONATHAN: An amazing family lineage, and youâre thinking of just the covenantal family through that line. And so youâve got a book that came out this year, The Great Quest: Invitation to the Examined Life and a Sure Path to Meaning. And I know in the book you share a little bit of your own search for meaning and finding, because we all know that Christianity is really the only faith you cannot be born into in terms of you can be born into a covenant home and be taught the lessons of Christ and the church, but itâs really a faith that has to become your own. Itâs not the faith that is transferred to the child. So tell us a little bit about your own story and your own coming to faith in Christ.
[04:31] Os Guinness: Well, I was born in China, as I said, and my first 10 years were pretty rough with war, famine, revolution, all sorts of things. And I was there for two years under Maoâs reign of terror, and in â51, two years after the revolution, my parents were allowed to send me home to England and they were under house arrest for another two years. So I had most of my teenage years apart from my parents, and my own coming to faith was really a kind of partly the witness of a friend at school but partly an intellectual search. I was reading on the one hand atheists like Nietzsche and Sartre, and my own hero, Albert Camus. And on the other hand, Christians like Blaise Pascal and G. K. Chesterton, and of course, C. S. Lewis.
And at the end of that time, I was thoroughly convinced the Christian faith was true. And so I became a Christian before I went to university in London, and Iâm glad I did because the 60s was a crazy decadeâdrugs, sex, rock and roll, the counterculture. Everything had to be thought back to square one. You really needed to believe what you believed and why you believed what you believed, or the whole onslaught was against, which is a bracing decade to come to faith.
[05:57] JONATHAN: It really is. I wonder if you could walk me through that a little bit. Iâve read some of Camus and Sartre, and I mean, theyâre just such polar opposites about humanity and God. What were some of the things that helped you navigate through that terrain?
[06:17] Os Guinness: Well, I personally never liked Sartre. He was a dull fish. And even later, when I went to LâAbri with Francis Schaeffer, we met people who studied under Sartre and people who had known Camus. Camus was warm, passionate. There are stories, we donât know whether theyâre true or not or just a rumor, that he was actually baptized just before he died in a car crash in January 1960. I donât know if thatâs true or not, or if thatâs a kind of death-bed conversion, but certainly his philosophy is profoundly human, and thatâs what I loved about so much of it. But at the end of the day, not adequate.
You know his famous Myth of Sisyphus. He rolls the stone up the hill and it rolls down again. Rolls up, it rolls down again, and so on. A gigantic defiance against the absurdity of the universe, but with no real answers. And of course, thatâs what we have in the gospel.
[07:19] JONATHAN: Thatâs right, and itâs sort of the meaninglessness of life, and I know a lot of high school, college students even seminary students have been deeply affected by some of his writing and have certainly felt, I think, what youâre touching into there, which is that deeply personalâthereâs a lot of reflection in there that I think resounds with people. But as you said, it leaves you with nothing at the end of the day.
So youâve written quite a number of books across quite a range of topics. What is it that sort of stokes your fire, that kind of drives you? I know the Bible uses passion in a very negative, sinful sense, but itâs a word we use a lot today. What is the passion thatâs driving you in your writings and your speaking?
[08:12] Os Guinness: Well, you can never reduce it easily, but two things above all. One, making sense of the gospel for our crazy modern world. On the other hand, trying to understand the world so that responsible people can live in the world knowing where we are. Because in terms of the second, I think one of the things in the Scriptures as a whole which is much missing in the American church today is the biblical view of time. You take the idea of the signs of the times, Davidâs men or our Lordâs rebuked His generation. they could read the weather but they missed the signs of the times. So you get that incredible notion of Saint Paul talking about King David. He served Godâs purpose in his generation. Thatâs an incredible idea that you so understand your generation that in some small, inadequate way weâre each serving Godâs purpose of salt and light and so on in our generation.
But many Americans, and many people around the whole world, they donât have that sense of time that you see in Scripture. Iâm not quite sure why; maybe growing up in revolutionary China Iâve always had an incredible sense of time.
[09:36] JONATHAN: You know, I think thatâs encouraging to hear. In our society, we get so fixated and caught up on the issues but thereâs almost this moment of needing to pull back and observe things from a higher perspective. And I think you do such a fantastic job of that.
Letâs walk through some of your more recent books, and then maybe get a peek under the curtain of whatâs coming, because I think youâve got a couple of books that are on their way out. The Magna Carta of Humanity. This idea of Sinai and French Revolution as it sort of relates to the American Revolution. Tell us a little bit about the impetus for this and the thought process towards that.
[10:25] Os Guinness: Well, the American crisis at its deepest is the great polarization today. But many people, I think, donât go down to the why. They blame it on the social media, or our former president and his tweets, or the coastals against the heartlanders and so on. But I think the deepest things are those who understand America and freedom from the perspective of the American Revolution, which was largely, sadly not completely, Christian, because it went back to the Jewish Torah, and those who understand America from the perspective of ideas coming down from the French Revolutionâpostmodernism, radical multiculturalism, the cancel culture, critical theory, all these things, the sexual revolution. They come from the ideas descended from Paris, not from anything to do with the Bible, and weâve got to understand this.
Now, the more positive way of looking at that, many Americans have no idea how the American Revolution came from the Scriptures, how notions like covenant became consitution; the consent of the governed or the separation of powers, going down the line, you have a rich, deep understanding in the Torah, the first five books of the Bible. and weâve got to understand if we know how to champion these things today.
But itâs not just a matter of nostalgia or defending the past. I personally am passionately convinced this is the secret to the human future. What are the deepest views of human dignity, or of words, or of truth, or of freedom, or of justice, peace and so on? They are in the Bible. And weâve got to explore them. So the idea from a gentleman not too far from you, Jonathan, who said weâve got to unhitch our faith from the Old Testament, thatâs absolute disaster. A dear guy, but dead wrong. Youâve got to explore the Old Testament as never before, and then, of course, we can understand why the new is so wonderful.
[12:46] JONATHAN: You know, Os, just going down that track a little bit, thatâs right; you canât have the New Testament without the Old Testament. The prophecies of Christ, the fulfillment, it all falls apart, the whole argumentation, everything almost becomes meaningless at that point. And I know the argument is that itâs about the event of the crucifixion and the resurrection, but you donât have those apart from Genesis 3, of course, Genesis 1, all the way through till the end of Malachi. You canât separate these two testamental periods. Itâs ludicrous, and it creates so much damage, as youâve said.
[13:36] Os Guinness: Well you know, take some of the myths that are around today. Theyâre very common even in evangelical circles. The Old Testament is about law; the New Testament is about love.
[13:48] JONATHAN: Right.
[13:49] Os Guinness: Thatâs not right. Thatâs a slander on the Jews. Read the beginning of Deuteronomy. The Jews, the nation, they are called to love the Lord with all their heart, soul and so on. Why did the Lord choose them? Because He loved them and set His affection on them. And you can see in Deuteronomy thereâs a link between liberty and loyalty and love. So right through the Scriptures, those who abandon the truth, apostasy, thatâs equivalent to adultery. Why? To love the Lord is to be loyal to the Lord and faithful to the Lord and so on. And weâve got to see thereâs a tremendous amount about love, loyalty connected with liberty.
I mean, a couple of weeks ago, a couple of professors writing in the New York Times said the Constitution is broken and it shouldnât be reclaimed. We need to move on, scrap it and rebuild our democracy. Now the trouble is constitutions became a matter of lawyers and law courts, the rule of law only in the Supreme Court. No, it comes from covenant. Covenant is all about freely chosen consent, a morally binding pledge. So the heart of freedom is the freedom of the heart, and weâve got to get backâthis is all there in the Old Testament.
Did the Jews fail? Of course. Thatâs why our Lord. but equally the church is failing today. So weâve got so much to learn from the best and the worst of the experience of the Jews in the Old Testament. But to ignore the Old is absolute folly.
[15:35] JONATHAN: Well, and thinking about the American Revolution and the impact of men, as youâve already cited with your own family history, of Wesley and the preaching of George Whitefield in the Americas, which would have had a profound effect on the American psyche, and I think would have contributed a great deal to a lot of the writing of law and constitutional ideology.
[16:02] Os Guinness: Well, the revival had a huge impact on all who created the Revolution. But some of the ideas go back, I think, to the Reformation. Not so much to Luther at this point, but to Calvin and Swingly. In Scotland, John Knox and in England Oliver Cromwell. You know, that whole notion of covenant. I mean, Cromwell said ... A lot of weird ideas came up in the 17th Century, but the 17th Century is called the Biblical Century. Why? Because through the Reformation they discovered, rediscovered, what was called the Hebrew republicâin other words, the constitution the Lord gave to the founding of His own people.
So even someone like Thomas Hobbes, who was an atheist, they are discussing the Hebrew republicâin other words, Exodus and Deuteronomy. It had a tremendous impact on the rise of modern notions of freedom, and weâve got to understand that.
So the Mayflower Compact is a covenant. John Winthrop on the Arbella is talking about covenant. When John Adams writes the first constitution, written one, in this country, which is the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, he calls it a covenant. And the American Constitution is essentially a national somewhat secularized form of covenant. And we who are heirs of that as followers of Jesus, weâve got to re-explore it and realize its richness today.
[17:44] JONATHAN: Turn on the news today and it feels like weâre quite a distance from that. Even thinking about using a word like justice, you know, all this now it seems, to your point, this ideology from the French Revolution has really come to the forefront, certainly in the 60s, but there seems to be a new revival of this. Whatâs contributing to that today in America?
[18:17] Os Guinness: Well, James Billington, the former librarian of Congress, and others, have looked at the French Revolution, and remember only lasted 10 years in France, then came dictator Napoleon. But it was like a gigantic volcanic explosion, and out of it came their main lava flows. The first one we often ignore, which is called revolutionary nationalism, in 19th-century France and so on. You can ignore that mostly except itâs very important behind the Chinese today.
But the second one is the one people are aware of. Revolutionary socialism, or in one word, communism. The Russian Revolution, the Chinese Revolution. Weâre actually experiencing the impact of the third lava flow, revolutionary liberationism, which is not classical Marxism, communism, but cultural Marxism or neo Marxism. And that goes back to a gentleman called Antonio Gramsci in the 1920s. Now you mentioned the 60s. it became very important in the 60s because Gramsciâs ideas were picked up by the Frankfurt School in the 30s, 40s, 50s, and the leading thinker in America in the 60s was Herbert Marcuso, who in many ways is the godfather of the new left in the 60s. I first came here in â68 as a tourist, six weeks. One hundred cities were burning, far worse than 1920, because of the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr. and Senator Kennedy.
But hereâs the point: The radicals knew that for all the radicalism in the streets, anti-Vietnam protests and so on, they wouldnât win in the streets, so they had to do what they called, copying Mao Zedong, a long march through the institutionsâin other words, not the streets. Go slowly, gradually, win the colleges and universities. Win the press and media. Win what they call the culture industryâHollywood, entertainment. And then sweep around and win the whole culture.
Now here we are, more than 50 years later, they have done it. Now, in the early days, Iâm a European still, Iâm not American, people would never have believed that the radical left would influence what were called the fortresses of American conservatismâbusiness, finance, the militaryâbut all of those in the form of woke-ism have been profoundly affected. So Americaâs at an extraordinary point in terms of the radical left being more power even than the French Revolution.
[21:16] JONATHAN: Okay, so in thinking through that lines of reasoning, the people who are caught up in that today, the radicalism, is this just indoctrination? I guess what my point is, is it all intentional? Is it like Marcusoâs intentionality of going through the halls of academia? Or rather is it that theyâve just been raised to think that this is just the way ... that itâs the most opportune way to get your ideology out there?
[21:56] Os Guinness: No, itâs thoroughly intention. But of course, always thereâs a creative minority who eventually win over the majority who are hardly aware of it. You mentioned justice. I was on calls for a California pastor last year and I said to them, âYou brothers have drunk the Kool-Aid.â They didn't realize how much of their understanding of justice owed everything to the radical left and nothing to the Hebrew prophets.
So you know how the left operate. It analyzes discourage. How do ordinary people speak? And so you look for the majority/minority, the oppressors/the victims. When youâve found the victim, which is a group, not an individual, you weaponize them and set up a constant conflict of powers in order to subvert the status quo.
But as the Romans point out, if you only have power, no truthâand remember in the postmodern world God is dead for them, truth is completely dead following Nietzsche, so all thatâs left is power. And the only possible outcome, if you think it through logically (which they donât) is what the Romans call the peace of despotismâin other words, you have a power so unrivaled since youâve put down every other power, you have peace. But itâs authoritarian. Thatâs where weâre going increasingly today. You take the high-tech media and so on, a very dangerous moment for freedom of conscience, for freedom of speech, and for freedom of assembly. America is really fighting for its life. But sadly itâs not. Most people are asleep.
[23:43] JONATHAN: Well, and thatâs right. Thatâs sort of the hinge point, isnât it? So letâs talk just briefly about the education system. Weâre thinking sort of elementary, middle school, high school education system. So here in Atlanta there are sort of options that are presented to parents, right? Thereâs the public school system; thereâs the private, often Christian, private school system; and then thereâs a home school option. And parents are all trying to navigate this. Now Iâm sure youâve heard arguments that you can send your kids to the public school because if Christians abandon the public school, then where is the witness, where es the influence with the greater population who are just asleep or whatever it is? If you send them out to the private school, your children will be protected, but how much exposure are they getting to thoughts and philosophies that if you sort of rein them inâ
And I guess this is really more to the home school spectrum, which is almost like an over-protection. These kids go to university and itâs the first exposure theyâve had to some of these thoughts, and professors are going out of their way to convince these students that the way that they were raised was very fallen, broken; their parents were brainwashing them, etc. Just thinking about some of those differing options and thought process, how do you think through that as a thinker, as a social critic, as a Christian? How do you weigh into that?
[25:17] Os Guinness: Well, you try and sort of isolate some of the different factors. So youâve been talking rightly about the personal and the family concerns, which are fundamental absolutely. And I think that very much varies with the child. But with all of the words, home schooling, whatever, you want to keep them ahead of the game so they know whatâs coming. Francis Schaeffer often used to stress that. So people go to the secular university. Keep them ahead of the game so that they know whatâs coming and they know some preliminary apologetics so they know how to make a good stand and be faithful without being washed away.
Youâve alsoâin other words, what you said is fundamental, I agree with that, but thereâs also a national dimension. So the public schools, and Iâm not arguing that everyone has to go to them, but they were very, very important because they were the center of passing on the unum of the e pluribus unum, out of man, one. Put it this way. As the Jews put it, if any project lasts longer than a single generation, you need families, you need schools, you need history. It doesnât get passed on.
So when Moses talked about the night before Passover, he never mentioned freedom, he never mentioned the Promised Land of milk and honey. He told them how to tell their story to children so that freedom could last. Now, the public schools used to do that, so you have people from Ireland or Italy or China or Mexico, it didn't matter because the public schools gave them civic education, the unum. That was thrown out at the end of the 60s. In came Howard Zinn and his alternative views, and more recently the 1619 project. So the public school, as a way of americanizing and integrating, collapsed. And thatâs a disaster for the republic.
Now, take the added one that President Biden has added, immigration. As scholars put it, itâs still relatively easy to become an American: get your papers, your ID and so on. Itâs almost impossible now to know what it is to be American, and particularly you say the 4 million who have come in in the Biden years, theyâre not going to be inducted into American citizenship, so the notion of citizenship collapses through the public schools and through an open border. Itâs just a folly beyond any words. It is historic, unprecedented folly, an absolute disaster.
Of course, weâve got to say, back to your original question, the same is true not only of freedom but of faith. So parents handing on, transmitting to their kids, very, very important.
I would add one more thing, Jonathan. Itâs very much different children. My own son, whom I adore, is a little bit of a contrarian. If heâd gone to a Christian college, he might have become a rebel in some of the poorer things of some of them. He went to a big, public university, University of Virginia, and it cemented and deepened his faith because he stood against the tide and he came out with a much stronger faith than when he went in.
[28:59] JONATHAN: I love that. I think youâre right on with that. And I think itâs good for people to hear and know the history and have awareness of this. Now I want to make a very subtle and gentle shift, and if you donât want to talk about it, thatâs fine. But you are a British citizen. Am I correct on that?
[29:18] Os Guinness: I am.
[29:21] JONATHAN: Queen Elizabeth has passed and now itâs King Charles III and thereâs much talk about comments heâs made in the past in terms of the Defender of the Faith. I read a quote from Ian Bradley, who is a professor at the University of Saint Andrews, he says, âCharlesâs faith is more spiritual and intellectual. Heâs more of a spiritual seeker.â
Is this sort of a microcosm of whatâs happening in the UK, this sort of shift from the queen, who very much had a very Christo-centric faith, to Charles and sort of emphasis on global warming and different issues of the day? Is this sort of a microcosm of what weâre seeing?
[30:22] Os Guinness: Well, the queen had a faith that was very real and very deep, and she was enormously helped by people like Billy GrahamâŠ
[30:29] JONATHAN: John Stott.
[30:30] Os Guinness: --John Stott and so on. So her faith was very, very genuine. His? Heâs probably got more of an appreciation for the Christian faith than many European leaders today. So the Christian faith made Western civilization, and yet most of the intelligentsia in Europe have abandoned the faith that made it. So Prince Charles, as you say, a rather New Age spirituality, and heâs extraordinarily open to Islam through money from Saudi Arabia. I donât have the highest hopes for him, although I must say the challenge of being king will remind him of the best of his mother. Even when the archbishop said in the sermon that he wanted people to know that Prince Charles had a Christian faith, I felt it was a glimmer of the fact he realizes, you know, his motherâs position was wonderful, so itâs very much open.
Now I am an Anglican, as you are. Back in 1937, the greatest of all the Catholic historians on Western civilization predictedâthis is 1937, almost a century agoâthat the day would come in some future coronation when people would raise the questions, âWas it all a gigantic bluff? Because the power of the monarchy, and more importantly, the credibility of the faith, had both undermined themselves to such an extent it didn't mean anything.â
I think weâre incredibly close to that with King Charles. I also think, sadly, that the Archbishop of Canterbury, who preached wonderfully well yesterday, has done a good job in the celebrations and so on, the pageantry, but does a rotten job in leading the church as the church. And so the Church of England is in deep trouble in terms of its abandoning orthodoxy. Itâs a very critical moment. Will Charles go deeper or revert to the way heâs been for the last few decades? I donât know. Iâm watching.
[33:02] JONATHAN: And then sort of just transitioning from there to what you see as faith in the United States. I think you have a new book coming out, Zero Hour America: Historyâs Ultimatum Over Freedom and the Answer We Must Give. Letâs bridge that gap between trajectory in the UK and now in the United States. What similarities and differences are you seeing?
[33:26] Os Guinness: Well, in Europe the great rival to the Christian faith was in the 18th century, the Enlightenment. And itâs almost completely swept the intelligentsia of Europe. Until recently, America was not fully going that way, and in the last decade or so it has. The rise of the religious nones, etc. etc. So in most areas that are intellectual, America too has abandoned the faith that made it. Of course, part of the American tragedy is the intelligentsia have not only abandoned the faith that made America; theyâve abandoned the Revolution that made America. So you have a double crisis here.
Now, I am, like you, a follower of Jesus. Iâm absolutely undaunted. The Christian faith, if itâs true, would be true if no one believed it. So the lies of the nones or whatever just means a lot of people didn't realize in one sense that theyâre just spineless. If itâs true, itâs not a matter of popularity or polls. I like the old saying, âDamn the polls and think for yourself.â And Americans are far too other-directed. The polls are often badly formulated in terms of their questions. The question is, is the faith true and what are the answers it gives us to lead our lives well? And I have no question itâs not only good news, it is the best news ever in terms of where humanity is today. So this is an extraordinary moment to be a follower of Jesus. We have the guardianship and the championship of the greatest news ever.
[35:14] JONATHAN: Amen. Well, and letâs make one final link there, which is we talked a lot about Western countries, the UK, the US, but you were born and spent quite a lot of time in China. Letâs think about not necessarily specifically China, but non-Western countries. You travel quite frequently. What are you seeing in those non-Western countries that perhaps is giving you hope or positivity?
[35:47] Os Guinness: God promised to Abraham in him all the families of the Earth will be blessed. DNA is in the heart of the Scriptures, and of course our Lordâs Great Commission. But as we look around the world today, thank God Christian faith is the most populace faith on the Earth. So the one place itâs not doing well is the highly modernized West. It is flourishing in sub-Sahara Africa. Or in Asia, where I happen to be born, in Chinaânothing to do with meâwas the most rapid growth, exponential growth, of the church in 2,000 years. So I have no fear for the faith at all. And of course we believe itâs true.
But the question, Will the West return to the faith that made it? I hope that our sisters and brothers in the global south will help us come back just as we took the faith to them. And I know many African brothers and sisters and many Korean brothers and sisters, Chinese too, thatâs their passion. And we must welcome it. I know so many Koreans, what incredible people of prayer. Up at 5:00, thousands of them praying together. When I was a boy in England, prayer meetings were strong in churches. Theyâre not strong in most American churches today. Weâve become highly secularized, so weâve got a huge amount to learn from the Scriptures, of course, above all, but from our brothers and sisters in the rest of the world reminding us of what we used to believe and weâve lost.
[37:33] JONATHAN: What a great reminder. Well, Os Guinness, I know youâve got a busy schedule and weâre so grateful that youâve taken the time to be on Candid Conversations. Weâve talked about quite a lot. Weâre going to put a link to your website in our show notes, and all fantastic books that youâve put out and new ones coming out, and we look forward to hopefully having you on again in the future.
[38:00] Os Guinness: Well, thank you. Real privilege to be on with you.
[38:02] JONATHAN: God bless you. Thank you.
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Are you committed to Christ but searching for guidance? In this new reflection, Jonathan Youssef explores the gripping Biblical story of Jacobâa tale of struggle, transformation, and divine engagement. Jonathan connects his own experiences with Jacobâs journey, offering insights into the challenges of perseverance, the power of repentance, and the profound ways God works in our lives.
Listen and deepen your understanding of spiritual growth and how our trials can lead to profound blessings. This is a must-listen for anyone seeking inspiration and guidance from God.
To ask Jonathan a question or connect with the Candid community, visit https://LTW.org/Candid
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TRANSCRIPT:
This transcript recounts Candid Conversations with Jonathan Youssef Episode 255: Wrestling with God: Jonathan Youssef
In seventh grade, I joined my middle school wrestling program. For two weeks, we ran and did all kinds of exercises, and then we would wrestle each other for the rest of the time we were there. And I did not like it. I lost to a guy who was younger than me. I lost every day. I was terrible. And I was tired of losing, and I lacked perseverance. There is little more humiliating than being wedged under the fat arm of a sweaty teenage boy, and I thought, This is as low as it gets.
Well, our reflection today is about wrestling and persevering. Iâve always been intrigued by the biblical story because it has so many layers. Itâs multifaceted and multidimensional. And itâs a little bit dangerous, meaning that there is potential to miss the main point of what the text is saying and to misunderstand or misrepresent it.
Over the years, Iâve reread it, read commentaries, listened to talks, and consumed all I can to try to understand it better. I want to know what is taking place at this really important moment in salvific history.
We have this man, Jacob. He has been at odds with his brother since birth. Even in the womb, he and Esau are wrestling with each other. He is at odds with his father over who is the favored son. He is at odds with who should be blessed. Heâs at odds over who had the birthright in the family. Heâs used trickery and deception to achieve his purposes. Heâs at odds with his Uncle Laban, a master trickster himself.
But in Genesis, we begin to see the undoing of this character, Jacob. Heâs being undone, and heâs being changed and transformed through these middle chapters of this book. Heâs served his crooked uncle/father-in-law for twenty-some-odd years, and in many ways, heâs echoing the prodigal son here. Having come to himself, heâs leaving Laban here, and heâs coming home, you might say, to the homeland of his father, to his older brother, and although God has begun to work in him, although he is a new man, as it were, spiritually, it becomes clear that God is not finished with Jacob yet.
And so this chapter unfolds with three dramatic pictures. First, in verses 1 through 21, we have the picture of Jacob returning. God has been working in his life, as we just noted. God has also been working in the lives of Jacobâs two wives, Leah and Rachel, and now Jacob has sent word to his brother, Esau, the brother who swore that he would one day kill his little brother in a very Cain and Abel-type fashion.
So Jacob sends the word, âHey! Iâm coming home.â Heâs really only able to do this because the Lord has told him, âThe day will come that Iâm going to bring you back to this land. And I am promising that I will do you good, that I will prosper you, and that I will be with you.â
If you remember the account of Jacobâs ladder, where Jacob falls asleep, and he envisions this ladder coming down from heaven, and the angels ascend and descend upon the ladder, the Lord tells him, âI will be with you. I will bring you back to this land. I will give it to you and your offspring. And the whole earth will be blessed through you and your seed.â And, of course, it reminds us of the very same promise given to Abraham.
He promises to keep and return him to that land, and now that day has come. In verses 1 and 2, we read that the angels come and meet Jacob. Itâs confirmation that the Lord is with him. He names the area Mahanaim, meaning âtwo camps.â
Now, perhaps heâs referring to the fact that itâs his camp and the Lordâs camp; the Lordâs camp will be his shield and protection. Because heâs going to need it. And the report comes back, âHey, Esauâs coming to see you. Heâs got four hundred guys with him. Itâs going to be great, right?â
Okay, either Esau is rolling out the red carpet for his little brother, or Esau has come for his vengeance, and he has not forgotten 20 years of anger and hostility. Verse 7 says, âThen Jacob was greatly afraid and distressed.â
Now, when it comes to our fears and the Lord, do we find that the way that the Lord enables us through our fears is by removing the fear, removing the obstacles? Or do we find that He gives us greater reasons not to fear than to fear? Here is Jacob, and heâs stuck in a difficult situation. He cannot return to his Uncle Laban; heâs terrified to go forward to his brother, Esau, and the unknown. What's he going to do?
Well, heâs a different man now. He probably would have used skill and trickery to weasel out of this in his past life. He would have found a crafty way to save himself, even at the cost of his own family.
But heâs a different man now, and Jacob perseveres despite his hesitancy, fear, and distressâunlike my illustrious wrestling career.
And then we see Jacob do something weâve never seen him do in Scripture. He gets on his knees, and he pleads with God. Heâs praying for Godâs help in his dreadfully fearful situation. And Jacob prays the longest prayer in the book of Genesis. And the prayer shows us that he now belongs to the Lord. Itâs evidence that the Lord is working in your heart, is it not, when you begin to call on His name, and itâs not just, âLord, Iâm in a mess. Help me out of this,â but rather, itâs âGod, you promised to be with me. You promised to protect me. And so Iâm coming to you, claiming on those promises.â
And that's what Jacob does, âLord, you said that you would do good to me. Fulfill your promise to me.â You notice itâs not a panicked prayer, âGod, get me out of this bind, and Iâll build a hundred churches for you.â
No. Instead, you have a man at the end of his resources, holding onto God's promises to bless him, and then he patiently sits, trusting that the Lord will act.
Then, we see another change in Jacob: a repentant heart. Itâs an attitude of repentance. That's whatâs happening with this whole procession going out to Esau. He sends the people and the animals and tells them to give a message to Esau: These gifts are from your servant, Jacob. Now, heâs scared, yes, but heâs coming behind us. Heâs indebted himself to you. Do you want a sign of a changed life? Do you want a sign of a repentant heart? You are prepared to go to the person you have offended, and you say to them, âBecause of what the Lord has done in me through the power of the Lord Jesus Christ, I can come before you and serve you.â
Think of Zaccheus, âA wee little man was he. He climbed up in the sycamore tree for the Lord he wanted to see. In the British version, it says, âAnd Jesus said, âIâm coming to your house for tea,ââ because they all drank tea back then. But what does Zaccheus do? Does he just say, âLord, Iâm sorry. I was bad. I did wrong. Forgive me, Lord,â and then just move on?
No! He gives four times back. He repays his debts. Itâs evidence of a changed man. And that's the other thing that Jacob is doing, right? Heâs gifting these 550 animals. Heâs saying, âBrother, I stole your blessing. I used deception and trickery for my own advantage, and now Iâm giving it back to youâ because I understand I need to be made right with you.â
Itâs more than just feeling sorry in a moment. In Scripture, repentance is God's work of grace in my heart. I am sorry for my sin and find His forgiveness, but Iâm also working towards restoration, repairing whatever damage I have caused.
The story is told of a machinist or factory worker in the Ford Motor Company in Detroit who had, over several years, borrowed tools and equipment, but never returned them. The machinist was thoroughly converted and was baptized. He wanted to put his faith into practice, so he came back to work to his boss, to the foreman, and he brought all the tools he had stolen and all the equipment he had taken, and the foreman didnât know what to do. And heâs repenting, and heâs confessing what heâs done, and so the foreman, impressed by this, cables Henry Ford and says, âYouâre not going to believe this. This guyâs come back, and heâs brought everything with him,â to which Ford cabled back, âDam up the Detroit River and baptize the whole city.â That's what's happening here with Jacob. Heâs bringing the blessing back. The blessing that the Lord has poured out on him, heâs giving it back.
Jacob returning. Then we have a second scene, which Iâm sure weâre all a little more familiar with, and this is the scene of Jacob wrestling. Heâs not only sent his possessions on, heâs sent his whole family ahead. Verse 22 states, âHe took his wives and servants and his eleven children, and they crossed over the Jabbok at night.â
And then, in verse 24, heâs all alone, and a man grabs him in the darkness and begins to wrestle with him. My seventh-grade selfâs nightmare because I didnât like wrestling. That was the allusion to that if youâre following along.
Who do you think Jacob thinks heâs wrestling? Itâs most likely that he thinks heâs wrestling with the man who swore to kill him, the man that all of this procession and all this fuss is about. At this moment, Esau is who Jacob thinks his most significant conflict is with. The one I have to wrestle with is my brother, itâs Esau.
But that is not who he wrestles with in the night, as we find out later in this passage and as we read in Hosea chapter 12, which is a little brief commentary. We find out that Jacob is, in fact, wrestling with some manifestation of God in the flesh, a pre-incarnate Christ. And so then weâre left to ask the question, What will God gain from this, from wrestling with Jacob? Heâs already sent all his possessions on ahead. Surely, God is finished with Jacob. Heâs repentant, heâs confessed, heâs done it all. There is no box left to check.
But you see, Jacob has given all he has back, but the most important thing is that he has yet to give back. Do you know what it is? Itâs Jacob. Itâs Jacob himself. And Jacob may think that Esau is trying to get what is his, which is to take Jacobâs life, but the reality is that God is wrestling with Jacob to take what is Hisâwhich is Jacob! And this wrestling, itâs like a father with a child. You know thereâs a way Iâm not a good wrestler, as weâve illustrated, and youâre trying to catch up with me on this. But thereâs a way for me to wrestle with my children while theyâre young, though my son is getting to the age where I canât keep up with him. But thereâs a way for me to wrestle with them, which keeps them engaged for a long time in which I never lose, and they never lose. That's sort of what God is doing with Jacob here.
But then He does this thing where He touches Jacobâs hip, and now Jacob has this dislocated hip, and you need your hip as a pivot to wrestle, so now heâs got nothing, heâs zero. And heâs clinging to God, and God is saying to him, âLet me go. Let me go,â and Jacob says, âIâm not going to let you go unless you bless me.â
Hereâs the context of these situations: The lesser is always blessed by the greater, so Jacob acknowledges that he is holding onto the greater being. I imagine heâs still not sure who heâs wrestling with, but heâs holding on, and he sees by the power that's rendered his hip inoperable that heâs holding on to a greater being. And heâs saying, âI will not let you go unless you bless me.â
If you go back and look at Jacob's life, you know what youâll see? Jacob is immensely blessed. Everything he does is blessed, right? That's what God promised to do, and that's what heâs receiving. Everywhere he went, every person he interacted with was blessed, just as God has blessed us immensely. If only we had eyes to see, we could have blessing upon blessing in our lives and still miss the main point.
The main point is not the blessings, plural, but Godâs blessing. And what is Godâs blessing? It is that He has every part of us. And how Jacob enters into this blessing is obvious: God says to him, âWhat is your name?â
And the response is one word: Jacob. Jakob. What's in the name? Twister is the etymology of the name Jacob. Twister, deceiver, heel-clutcher. And now God has gotten to the bottom of the issue: itâs a confession. I am unrighteous, I am a sinner. My identity was in who and how I could trick them.
God is going right for his heart, saying, âGive me your heart, Jacob. That's what I want.â You see that God is prepared to dislocate Jacobâs hip to have Jacob's heart. That may be what God is saying to you, that the way to your heart is by the divine dislocation of something you take pride in, which is a source of great strength for you. Maybe you notice Heâs touched the very thing in which you have depended on for your life, and Heâs taken it away from you. That's what's happening to Jacob. The Lord draws him in to say, âJacob, itâs not all the things in your life that I want you to give me; itâs yourself that I want.â
But you see, thereâs a third scene, a beautiful scene. Jacob returned, Jacob wrestled, and now Jacob was limping. In the next chapter, chapter 33 of Genesis, we see Jacob return to his brother Esau, but heâs not at the back of the caravan as he was before with his plan. Heâs at the front now and prepared to take it all. But weâre told that heâs doing two things. One, heâs bowing down seven times, and the other is using the language of âI am the servant, and you, Esau, are the lord.â
But I think if you were there that day to watch this encounter, those would not be the two things you would have paid attention to. I think the thing that would have captured your attention would have been this: his limp. Why is this significant? Because, beloved, this is a picture of the Christian life. Men and women who have been dislocated to different degrees because of the work of God in their lives and caused to limp, humbled under His sovereign, mighty hand; caused to limp, caused to be conscious of this for the rest of their lives of their weakness and their dependence on the Lord. Dependent on His forgiveness, dependent on His powerâmoment by moment, day by day. But the sun has risen upon them.
I wonder if youâve come across one of these people. And it doesnât always have to be a physical variation of this; sometimes itâs unseen, the wound, the dislocation. But when we were in Australia, there was a young man. He was in our Bible study, and he looked like he had been in a fire. He had an autoimmune disorder, and he received a bone marrow transplant from his sister, but the transplant caused his body to fight against itself. And so his body was covered in sores and blisters everywhere, and ulcers filled his mouth. Walking was difficult; eating was difficult.
As I said, he was in our Bible study, and so when I asked him his story, he said to me that he was a great swimmer. When he was in high school, he was actually training for the Olympics for the Australian national team. Then he started feeling strange, and his swim time started getting slower and slower, and that's when all the medical issues began in his life.
And he told me, he said, âYou know, before, I was a good kid, but I was very full of myself. I was arrogant. But God reached in and dislocated a part of me, taking away things I loved doing.â
And even through his anger, frustration, agony, and pain, he never left the Lord, and the Lord certainly never left him. He would testify to the goodness of God, despite what everybody saw physically with their eyes when they encountered them. His faith and his dependence on the Lord remained until the Lord called him home a few years ago.
This is how the Lord said to him, âI want every part of you. I want your heart.â You see, this is not just a principle of spiritual usefulness for Jacob and for us; this takes us to the heart of the gospel. For you see, there would be another night, centuries later, where two wrestlers were engaged, but this time a Son with His Heavenly Father, as He said, âLet this cup pass from me.â And there is an equality in the wrestling. âLet this cup pass from me, and yet, I will not let you go despite what is coming, the agony and the shame that will be borne on the cross. I will not let you go, Father, until you bless them,â which is why He says, âFather, forgive them, for they know not what they do.â And so He, as Paul says, upon that cross became a curse so that the blessing may come to us.
Where are you today? Perhaps youâre on your way, like Jacob, and youâre walking through repentance and forgiveness. Are you willing to give up a little but not the whole? Perhaps youâre wrestling with God over these things at this moment, and you give a little, but then you fight for others, and itâs a give-and-take relationship, and itâs very back and forth. Perhaps you want to let go, or perhaps you have let go in the past, and the Lord keeps re-engaging with you in this wrestling match, and Heâs waiting for you to say, âDonât let me go. I will not let you go, even if it means me having a limp for the rest of my life.â
Do you have a limp? Do you have a dislocation? May the Lord be gracious to us as He pursues our hearts.
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In this fast-paced world, managing our emotions and understanding those of others is more crucial than ever. Emotional intelligence (EQ) is about recognizing and managing your emotions effectively to reduce stress, communicate, empathize, overcome challenges, and defuse conflict. With high EQ, you can improve relationships, excel at work, and achieve your career and personal goals.
Today, Jonathan Youssef is joined by Clay Kirkland, a returning guest with over two decades of coaching experience and a rich background in staff development at the University of Georgia Wesley Foundation. Clay is certified in emotional intelligence and includes EQ as a vital coaching component.
Clay breaks down the concept of EQ into four crucial quadrants: self-awareness, self-management, social awareness, and relationship management. This episode isn't just theoretical; it is filled with practical advice, from managing personal emotions to enhancing interpersonal relations in various spheres of life, such as parenting, the workplace, and within the church community.
Listeners will gain insights into how emotional intelligence intersects with spiritual maturity, the practical applications of EQ in everyday scenarios, and strategies for developing emotional resilience. Clayâs explanations bridge scientific understanding with theological perspectives, making this a must-listen for anyone seeking to enhance their emotional skills and lead a more fulfilling, empathetic life. Join us as we explore how mastering emotional intelligence can lead to profound personal growth and significantly better interactions in all areas of life.
This episode is for you, whether you're a leader, a parent, or simply someone looking to understand the emotional dynamics of the human mind.
To ask Jonathan a question or connect with the Candid community, visit https://LTW.org/Candid
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TRANSCRIPT:
This transcript recounts Candid Conversations with Jonathan Youssef Episode 254: What is Emotional Intelligence and Why Does it Matter?: Clay Kirkland
[00:01] JONATHAN: Well, today we have a repeat guest. We like having repeat guests. We like to build up some relational collateral with our audience and so weâve brought back Clay Kirkland. Clay has spoken on a number of topics, including calling, with us on Candid Conversations, and today we are talking about emotional intelligence. Clay is a life coach with twenty-plus years of experience. He served for eighteen years as the director of staff development at the Wesley Foundation at the University of Georgia in Athens. He has a Master of Divinity from Asbury Theological Seminary and he is a Gallup-Certified Strengths Coach. And so I will say, âWelcome back, Clay.â
[00:51] CLAY: Thank you. I appreciate it. Glad to be here.
[00:55] JONATHAN: Well, this is a topic that has always been of great interest to me, and obviously to my team as we were having this conversation and your name came up pretty much immediately, and itâs this issue of emotional intelligence, EQ, right? That's our abbreviation. So this is not IQ, a measure of general intelligence. This is EQ, emotional intelligence, and so maybe help us define emotional intelligence. Why is it important? What is it? Kind of step us through a little bit of that process.
[01:37] CLAY: Sure. Yeah. So itâs a great topic. Iâm very excited to be here to talk about it. And itâs gone through a lot of iterations in terms of its understanding. Probably in the last forty years, really, itâs been around and Iâd say probably the last fifteen or twenty itâs become a major player in conversations both in the business sector and also just in general. If we wanted to really boil it down to probably its simplest form, you would want to think about emotional intelligence in four different parts. Do you know yourself? Can you manage or read yourself? Do you know others? Can you manage and influence others? And that's about as easy as we can get it. Weâre leaving some things out, but across the bow, that's what weâre looking for those four quadrants. Thereâs a self-understanding, thereâs a social understanding, then thereâs a self-leadership or management, and thereâs a social leadership management and understanding.
[02:55] JONATHAN: Even in just giving the categories I feel like Iâm picking up on the necessity of being able to understand yourself and know yourself, being able to manage yourself, right, self-controlâitâs a fruit of the Spirit. And then on the relational spectrum, being able to relate to others, are ⊠How do you lead? How do you interpret peopleâs body language and cues and things that are being given off? So letâs talk about the importance of just those four categories that youâve given us.
[03:45] CLAY: Sure. Well, you can, if we start with knowing yourself, right, and then think about that, as it relates to knowing others, we say things in life to our family or things are said about us that lead us back to what weâre really talking about when it comes to emotions. So youâll hear people say things like, âHe doesnât have a clue what's going on.â Or âDo you realize how angry you sounded when you said that?â And that immediate defensive posture. So in interpersonal relationships, itâs pretty much there on a consistent basis, that idea of do you know what's on the other side of you? And that's the self-awareness, right? And then do you know whatâs happening with the people that are around you?
So that's the first part, right; itâs just this knowledge. And the great thingâI didnât mention this earlier, but the great thing of this kind of understanding emotional intelligence that plays into a lot of the definitions that people are putting out these days are that these are a set of skills that can be learned. This is not aâ
[05:09] JONATHAN: Youâre not born with it.
[05:10] CLAY: âpersonality trait that, youâve gotten and youâre just stuck there. This is dynamic in a good way, but also in a sobering way in the sense that you can be really good at these and then stop being good at these, or you can be not good at these and then
[05:31] CLAY: âthey slide. But then outside of that awareness and knowledge, itâs what do you do with it? Do you know how to manage yourself? And again, itâs an interplay. Itâs always going to blend with the knowledge. Do you know whatâs appropriate for the moment either for yourself, coming out of you, with others, and then, can you apply this? So when we think about the brain, weâre thinking about this process of your limbic system where the seat of your emotions are, and your prefrontal cortex, where youâre making your rational decisions. So do you have understanding of both of those? Do you have control over both of those? And can you manage thatâwhen youâre aloneâor can you do that also when youâre with other people?
[06:34] JONATHAN: This is very scientific but also very practical. Letâs bring in the world of theology. How do you differentiate between spiritual maturityâor do you differentiate between spiritual maturity and emotional intelligence? Are they one in the same?
[06:56] CLAY: I think you have to differentiate between the two, simply because someone who has no spiritual/religious anythingâ
[07:09] JONATHAN: Theyâre capable of growing.
[07:13] CLAY: And being very emotionally intelligent. So youâre not automatically emotionally intelligent because you have some type of spiritual maturity in the sense of you have a relationship with God or you do certain religious disciplines that make you, in the eyes of other people, highly religious or devout.
There has to be a difference there. But when we look at the practical applications of emotional intelligence and you look at them and the practical applications of spiritual maturityâso probably the easiest one to go to is in the New Testament, to look at the fruits of the Spirit. You start talking about love, joy, patience, kindness, goodness. You get all the way down to self-control. And then you pull those back into the outcomes that emotional intelligence is supposed to create, thereâs a lot of similarities, right? Obviously, self-control is one. Optimism is a massive one, which we can really link to joy and hope. The kindness piece would clearly cover those kind of interpersonal relationships. So itâs not a perfect overlay, but that's where you see it.
[08:32] JONATHAN: Yeah, lots of connectivity there for sure.
[08:34] CLAY: Yes, a lot.
[08:38] JONATHAN:You mentioned the limbic system, the prefrontal cortex. Talk me through a little bit of that to give some clarity here.
[08:52] CLAY: Sure. And again, letâs make it real simple.
[08:56] JONATHAN: Thanks.
[08:58] CLAY: Yeah, for all of us. Youâre going to have your reptilian part of your brain. That's your fight, your flight when youâre in danger. That's just kind of that aspect. If we get past that, weâre typically going to put our neural functions into two other categories. That's going to be your limbic system, and that's the âI feelâ place. And then your neocortex, that prefrontal cortex, where youâre going to think rationally and youâre going to make decisions, youâre going to process them.
So what weâre trying to say is, because you get this a lot when I go around and talk to people about emotional intelligence, youâll typically hear someone or a group of people identify and say, âI donât have a lot of feelings. Iâm not very emotional, so I donât know if this is going to help.â
[09:59] JONATHAN: âIâm a thinker, not a feeler,â right?
[10:01] CLAY: That's correct, which just means that theyâre leaning much more heavily into one area of their brain than the others. That doesnât mean that they donât feel. It doesnât mean that that limbic system is depressed or deformed or anything else; it just means that they are not as aware that that part of their brain is functioning and can function for them in positive, neutral or negative ways.
Again, if you were to describe me and say, âHey Clay, on a scale of 1 to 10, how emotional are you,â most people then link that to whenâs the last time you cried? Do you get chill bumps when you watch a video, or a commercial at Christmas, or whatever? And I would say, no, that's not the type of person I am. But that still doesnât mean that that limbic system within my brain isnât an active part of the brain. Because it is. For all of us it is, weâre just not leaning into it.
[11:14] JONATHAN: So is there a wayâI'm sure weâre all thinking of a person that perhaps is not leaning into their limbic system, and weâre thinking, How do you exercise that? And Iâm assuming that your goal with clients and that sort of things is to try and help find balance. I assume you want a balance between being in touch with emotions, right, because emotions can be good indicators. They can also mislead, but they can be good indicators. And then you need a rational side to help navigate that. So how do you sort of exerciseâand we can do both sides of thatâhow do you, for those who are very much a feelings-generated person, how do they exercise their thinking and vice-versa?
[12:10] CLAY: All right. So letâs start with the person who typically is not necessarily a feeling-type person. Iâll give you an example. I had a client several years ago, and he was a CEO of a company and I got brought in to work with him. We were meeting in the lobby of the hotel, like in the restaurant, and I asked him, I said, âTell me a recent story about something that went wrong at work.â
So he tells me the story. And after he finishes, I said, âHow do you feel about that?â
And he said, âBad.â
I said, âTry something a little bit more deep, descriptive.â And he just stared at me and said, âI donât know, it just made me feel bad.â
So I said, âHave you ever heard of the âemotions wheelâ? Itâs a very common graphic, you can google it.â
So he pulled out his phone and said, âSiri, Google,â and here comes the emotions wheel. It pops up on it and he stares at it. He stares at it for probably seven minutes. I was like, âWow, I donât know if heâs going to be able to do it.â
And he finally said, âAngry.â
And I said, âAll right! Great! This is good. This is good.â So we spent several months with that wheel, using exercises that would help him start to recognize that he has feelings that are coursing in and out of his brain that he just wasnât giving airtime to. So again, people who arenât touchy-feely or arenât kind of the emotional types, they typically wonât feel anger. Theyâre aware of that frustration, but what they typically do, theyâre guarding themselves. And this is where weâre going to get off on a rabbit trail, so Iâm going to pause myself, but they are typically guarding themselves from certain emotions they donât like or they donât believe are good or not the type of person they would be. Or pain, or whatever, again, canât go there. But that's typically what you see.
So we just started to do exercises that caused him to become very aware of the emotions that were coursing through his brain and body and it became helpful. Again, itâs not necessarily the end product, but we just needed to at least give some recognition.
On the flip side, someone whoâs highly emotional, again, the way they would describe themselves, and they would say, âWell, I donât really think that much,â they do think a lot; they are just thinking primarily through their emotions. And you said it earlier: they can be great indicators, but they can also be misleading. So thatâs where we kind of do some exercises for people in that kind of space to really pause and start to learn where theyâre making their decisions from.
Why are you doing this? âBecause I feel like it.â What do you feel? âWell, I feel âŠâ and they can just tell you.
And so that's when you have to do some exercises where you pause and put them in situations where you say something like, âIf your friend was about to do this, how would you tell him or her what to do? What kind of advice would you give them?â That gives them a pause to consider. Or itâs a common kind of way that we would do it, but we would debate our emotions.
So your classic, classic example for this isâand this just happened recently, so this is a true story, here in this officeâI got here early because the fire company told me they needed to come and do a test on the fire system. So 6:30 in the morning I walk through here, only saw one other person in the office and said, âHey, thereâs a fire alarm test.â He said, âOkay, great.â
So what I didnât notice was that someone was parking and then they were coming into the front doors about ninety seconds after I warned the one person that the fire alarm would go off. And this woman came running down the hallway in panic and scared, because she and I both heard the same fire alarm, but because I had certain knowledge, I had zero panic and fear, and had no emotion towards the fire alarm whatsoever. And she had incredible emotions towards it, and therefore, she was running, she was trying to save people. She was looking for people to save because she thought that we were going up in flames, and she just couldnât believe it.
So the point of that is to say when you have something that triggers emotion, you can debate it. If you know that you need to learn something about your emotions, you can debate it, again, to say, âIs there a reason for me to feel any other way? Is there a trigger or consequence that Iâm concerned about? Is there any context that I could give myself that could perhaps change the way that I feel currently?â
And again, they are all methods. Those are all different waysâand we can get into those exercises if you want toâbut the point of those exercises is to pause yourself before you push whenever that limbic system is pushing into your vision, near the forefront of your mind, to make that the only way that you can make a decision. Weâre just trying to pause you enough to give you an option to have your other parts of your brain work.
[18:31] JONATHAN: This sort of happened recentlyâI should be careful; I should use third-party examples. But my wife and I were at the beach, and our son was playing near and we were talking with friends. And we were keeping an eye on him, and then all of a sudden he was gone. And so we went into full panic mode. And weâre looking in the water and itâs just like it was emotion-driven. Thereâs very little rational thought process and the panic mode strikes. Heâs not where he was; something terrible must have happened.
And I remember after panicking for a while I finally just stopped. I did the pause, kind of what youâre talking about, and I thought, âOkay, weâve been here before. He knows this place.â So I told my wife, I said, âGo back up to where weâre staying and check for him there.â And then I thought, âThereâs a little statue that I know he likes. Let me go see maybe if heâs gone over there.â Because we hadnât thought, âWell, he ran past us,â because we would have seen him. But I thought, âWell, we might have been engaged in conversation and missed him.â
And sure enough, as Iâm running to the statue, there he is, playing in the sand. And he had run past us, chasing a seagull or something. And it was like, okay, if I just took a minute to think, all right, what are the logical things that could have happened here? But at the same time, God has given us those panic senses to where if something terrible had happened, your body is in that sort of fight, hopefully not flight, but fight mode of I need to do ⊠I need to, as the example of the lady in the office, sheâs trying to save people. That's a good thing if the fire alarm is going off.
But I see what youâre saying in terms of just taking a minute to think, âWhat information do I have? What am I âŠ?â
Because I think your mind probably shuts down, you get into tunnel vision and that sort of thing.
Letâs talk a little bit about IQ versus EQ. And in terms of the way that we look at people, the way we consider talent, children, workplace environment, hiring, all that sort of thing. How do you see the consequences of prioritizing one over the other kind of play out?
[21:04] CLAY: Iâd say in the last twenty years or so thereâs been a push to raise the importance of EQ. Not to diminish IQ, because itâs important to learn, become smart, develop that part of your brain. But this isnât a choose one over the other. Now, right, is to say we probably missed it when we were only pushing get smarter, get this score on a test, get this acceptance, then youâll be successful.
Harvard Business Review came out and said that there is ⊠the differences between good leaders and great leaders, that gap. If you were to look in that gap and see what's in there, they would say 80 percent of the contents in that gap are in the emotional intelligence sector. So that's what they would say. Daniel Goleman, whoâs one of the most popular voices on emotional intelligence, wrote Primal Leadership and several other books about it over the course of the past thirty years, he would say that if youâre looking to define success and what's going to make you successful in this day and age, he would say 80 percent of the contents of that recipe would also be in emotional intelligence.
And I think what theyâre sayingâthis is me trying to interpret a little bitâagain, itâs not to say, âWell, that means only 20 percent is IQ.â That's not what itâs saying. Itâs saying we pushed, âBe smart, be smart, be smart, be smartâ so hard, that's almost like a get it. Like when you look at people who work hard in high school, go to college, get really good grades, get a competitive job, Iâll bring Google up in a second, but that's that pattern. We said, âIQ, IQ, IQ, IQ.â And hereâs how youâre going to be measured on that, youâre going to get rewarded. Youâre going to get awards, youâre going to get plaques, youâre going to get acceptance letters, youâre going to get scholarships, and youâre going to get a job.â Thatâs the way we measure IQ. We pushed that so much, itâs almost like you have to do this. But if you also add extra, what is that extra? Well, 80 percent of that extra, I would say, would be emotional intelligence. So that's where I think that those figures are coming from.
You can google these things if you want to, but they did two what they would call projects where they studied their employees, one almost around 2000, and then twelve to thirteen years later. And they were very surprised, as was everyone else, because they had kind of the best of the best, the brightest people, the Ivy League schools and so on and so forth. And they were trying to differentiate why some teams were doing better than others and why some individuals were doing better than others.
And that's when they started to find out that their term was âsoft skillsâ were trumping hard skills. And they were trumping them in the sense that everyone came almost with the same hard skillsâthe STEM degrees that they all came withâbut then why were some doing really well and why were some not? And that's when they started to see qualities like coachability, curiosity, emotional intelligence, empathy, listening. Those things were what they saw in both individuals and teams to see where people really are being successful.
So as a parent and vocationally and all those kind of things, itâs not that we should depress one in order to elevate the other as much as youâre both working on our ability to become smarter but also your ability to be more emotional.
[25:18] JONATHAN: We see this in Scripture, apart from just fruit of the spirit. What are some of the areas? Certainly thereâs a high level of EQ that we would see, for instance, in the Psalms, which maybe explains why David was a good king and others probably were maybe lacking in those areas. Iâm trying to think it as it relates to us in the Christian life specifically and itâs interesting that you bring up Google. I would think coding or something in the technology field, I wouldnât think thereâs as much relationality in business versus like sales or pastoral ministry or something where you really need those muscles exercised.
But at the same time, itâs interesting that what theyâre finding is that even in the technology field, your success has a balanced element to those who have the soft skills, who have elements of emotional intelligence and empathy and all those sorts of things are actually helping in that plus area, as you described it. Help us detangle some of that and just thinking like from a scriptural perspective. How does something like emotional intelligence equip you for being better in all those different areas?
[27:21] CLAY: Sure. Let me stab that one real quick and then come back to some of those biblical things. You know itâs interesting. If you look at statistics back when Millennials were in the limelight, Iâd say about ten years ago, they would say at that point that 80 percent of them wanted to work in a place of collaboration; that is what they were desiring in a workplace. Those statistics have only gotten higher as Gen Zâs are infiltrating now the workplace.
So you see that push for now over half of the workforce, so regardless of what industry youâre going to find, youâre seeing that desire for camaraderie, teamwork, connections. So even post-COVID where a lot of things have gone hybrid, work models, itâs still youâre on a Teams meeting, youâre on a Zoom meeting, youâre still interacting.
And so I have several clients, current and former, in that tech space, really smart people, and they do have to code a lot by themselves, but itâs when they have to talk to the customer, when they have to talk to the teammate, when they have to interact with the boss that that's where the skills either put them into a place of advantage or [unintelligible]. So itâs going to be very difficult for almost any job to be a job where youâre not going to need some type of emotional intelligence skills in order to make yourself successful. Can you find it out there? Sure, thereâs just not that many. So most of us are going to find ourselves in positions where if we have emotional intelligence, we will succeed, stand out, excel.
[29:18] JONATHAN: And weâre relational beings. I mean, even by our very creation.
[29:23] CLAY: Yes, absolutely. So that's that little vignette there. So I would sayâyou mentioned the Psalms. I mean, the Psalms are great. I love the rhythm of Psalms. I had to take a class in the Psalms when I was in seminary, I chose to, and it was fantastic. But thereâs almost like this general rhythm of David in the Psalms because most of them from what we understand, or at least at the onset, privately written. And obviously, some of them were more for the tribe, the songs, but typically they were private.
So thereâs this process of raw, honest emotion about the good, the bad, and the ugly of life (I mean, not all of them are sad) and then some possible outcomes that either were happening or could happen. And then thereâs typically, almost in every psalm, this point to which David or the other psalmists get to where they then recognize who they are and who God is, what God might do compared to what they might do, and then thereâs a surrender of those things that theyâve felt and seen and wanted and they let go. And so that in and of itself, you could study that for a long time.
Psalm 139, right, itâs almost like a classic for emotional intelligence, especially the end, âSearch me and know me,â right? So thereâs self-awareness, I want to be known. âSee if there is any hurtful way in me.â That's I want to get better. But this is my favorite part is that at the very end he says, âAnd then lead me in the way everlasting.â The reason that's my favorite part is because of how itâs saying the self-help movement gets it wrong when it puts navel-gazing and self-awareness as the end. Just become aware and the longer you can stay aware and the more that you can stay aware, youâre good. It doesnât mean youâre good.
[31:47] JONATHAN: Thereâs no way forward.
[31:50] CLAY: That's correct. Right. So David there itâs like, âHey, I want to be aware of myself. I need to be aware of myself.â The whole psalm is basically saying, âYouâre absolutely aware of me. Iâm pretty much under the spotlight.â I want that awareness and I want you to continue to have that awareness, not so that I can be aware; so that I can then go the ways you want me to go.
When I was at Wesley, we had this phrase we would do first-year time, second-year time, third-year time [unintelligible] our second-year term. And this was the phrase that I took there. It said, âWeâre going to focus on you so that then we can get you out of the way.â So we wanted to have some quote/unquote navel-gazing time. We did strengths finder for them, we had emotional intelligence for them. Again, where thereâs a lot of awareness. But itâs not just so that they can know themselves; itâs so that they can know where they need help, where they need to get better, where they are doing well so that we can get all that out of the way so that we donât have to be in the limelight. We can actually then serve others [overlapping voices] and give ourselves over to the things that God wants us to do.
And that's why I [unintelligible]
[33:21] JONATHAN: That's right. No, youâre right on, and that's a helpful sort of thought process through that. I mean, even through that lens of emotional intelligence. We live in a day and age where everything is volatile, people are triggered by anything and everything. And then you add in a layer of social media or anonymity through the computer, which sort of exacerbates our problem. How do we develop greater emotional resilience and self-control? How do we as believers navigate that terrain.
[34:11] CLAY: Huge thought there for sure. Iâll just take one swing at it, because that'sâ
[34:20] JONATHAN: Weâll do a five-part episode.
[34:23] CLAY: Yeah, that's a big one. Iâll go real technical in terms of emotional intelligence [unintelligible]. In the assessment that Iâm trained in and I like to administer to people, itâs got subsets. So itâs got fifteen of them. Two of them, I think, speak to some of this. One of them is flexibility. And flexibility and that subset is when things change, like youâve decided something is going one way but now something out of your control has changed it, how do you respond?
On the other side of that coin, the next thing we administer is stress tolerance. Stress tolerance is you want things to change desperately and theyâre not. Theyâre stuck. [unintelligible] And so in those two, when I look at volatility of our current culture and social media, itâs you see a plan so easily in those two regards. Someone has an opinion, someone has the other one, you canât change their opinion, so what are you going to do about it? Nowadays, we just trash the other person.
[35:52] JONATHAN: Ad hominem, yeah.
[35:54] CLAY: That's our response. On the other side, when we had a plan and now everything has changed and we didnât get to choose that, how do we respond? We blame everybody. We have to find someone to blame because we think that that's going to make it better. Right now we look for someone to blame instead of moving into that place of resilience and grit and realizing that not everything is going to go our way. So part of that emotional intelligence, when you look at how you become flexible, become better at stress tolerance.
A huge part of it is just accepting the fact that things are not always going to be good; things are not always going to go your way; and that is everybodyâs life. You want to take it to a biblical place, then you go back to the words of Jesus where He said, âIn this world youâll have trouble.â Heâs already told you. And everybodyâs response to it. He gives you the clue, if youâre doing it from a Christian perspective, He says, âBut I have overcome the world,â meaning that your perspective is going to change how you respond to those situations. If the weight of the world is on that moment, you know, itâll crush you. But if you realize that that's not the weight of the world, regardless of the situation, even if itâs going to hurt, those kind of things are going to take a bite out of you, it gives you the ability to realize that you can recover, you can make it through it.
And that's a key part, I think, in all of that. Iâll give you an example, a real practical example. I use this with my kids, but I also use this with adults for sure. I use it with myself. Ask myself this all the time. I canât remember where I came up with this, but so this is the question when youâre faced with a situation that's hard, heavy, frustrating, whatever it is, and you have the option of choosing an emotional, unintelligent response, is this. This is the question I ask. Is this going to be in your book?
I can say that to my kids, and they know exactly what Iâm talking about. If they donât know what Iâm talking about, then I give them this context. At the end of your life, you get two hundred pages to write your autobiography. This situation right now, is this a chapter? Is this a page? Is this a paragraph? Is this a sentence? Or is it on the editing floor? And almost always this will be on the editing floor. And so if itâs on the editing floor, then why are we treating it like itâs a chapter? And that's the context. So that's the question I ask myself, and I give it to my kids as well and that's what I tell my people at my office.
Again, it gives you pause. That's the whole point of this is to pause. But the whole idea of emotional intelligence is this, and how they came up with this, I donât know. People smarter than me. I would say this: that you have six seconds to choose your emotional intelligence response, meaning that your brain likes to default to habits, and so youâll habitually just respond. You think about traffic. Any time I see traffic, I get angry, so shoulders go up, eyebrows go down, my tone changes, whatever, itâs just your habit. Youâre choosing it, you just didnât realize that your brain is in default into the choice. Youâre really not giving yourself that option.
But the six seconds comes into play in the sense of you can actually choose to go a different path. Weâre talking about neural paths. You can choose a different neural pathway. Your brain would prefer to go the habitual route because then it doesnât have to work that hard. So in all of these things, what weâre trying to do is to give ourselves pause enough to alert ourselves that weâre probably about to choose a default that is not the best choice, and can we train ourselves to a point where we say, ah, not to do this, probably should do this.
It's the train tracks, shifting from one track to another. That's really what weâre trying to do in any exercise that we do in emotional intelligence is to pause and then give that new skill an opportunity to get some [unintelligible] and get some legs [unintelligible]
[41:18] JONATHAN: And itâs funny, because in order to get to that position, you have to have self-awareness. You have to be aware that what's going on isâand Iâm just even putting myself in situations where Iâm like, oh, that is absolutely my mental state goes to a default position. Oh, this happened and I know that this is my reaction. And youâre right; sometimes itâs like I donât even think about it. Itâs just this is just what I do.
It makes me think of sort of the enneagram thing, well, that's just who I am. Iâm a fill-in-the-number, but thereâs no, okay, so is that your paradigm? Is that who you are and that defines you? Or are you at a position to where you can challenge yourself, and to your point, take a pause and consider, okay, do I have other options here? I absolutely do. Which is really, if you think about it from a gospel perspective, itâs like do I have to keep choosing law over injustice for people over whatever situation? Or at what point do I choose to show grace and mercy, which by definition are undeserved for those people?
And that's really where the gospel message comes in, because if God operated under our own default paradigm, if He was created in our image, then it would be law-justice, law-justice all day every day. But grace and mercy are so alien to us, and that's the beauty of Christâs work and what He has done.
Youâve shared a lot of really great and helpful stories, but could you give us some examples of applied EQ principles inâand Iâm going to give you three different things, and then Iâll remind you of them if you canât remember. So one for parenting, two, the workplace, and three, the church. So weâll start with parenting.
[43:32] CLAY: Iâll be as practical and as vulnerable as I can. What weâre trying to teachâweâve got six kids, a major focus for us right now is just empathy, how to put yourself in someone elseâs shoes. A funny but revealing story is several years ago my wife was crying about a certain matter. One of my sonsâ
[44:02] JONATHAN: Name redacted.
[44:05] CLAY: Weâll keep it redacted. One of my sons came in and saw her and immediately started crying. And then another one of my sons came in and looked at his brother and said, âWhy are you crying?â And he said, âIâm crying because sheâs crying.â And then that brother who was not crying was like, âThat's the weirdest thing Iâve ever seen.â
[44:28] JONATHAN: That doesnât make sense to me. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
CLAY: In general, we all have starting points, and those starting points have been formed and fashioned by our personality, our family systems, I mean all of these things. So that's why I love taking these type of assessments, because they show you where youâre starting from. Then you get to know where you need to go. So again, take Son A in that story. Empathy is already off the charts. I mean, just his starting point is heâs probably at an A-. Thereâs one little uptick and heâs perfect.
The other son probably at a D or F in that area. He really needs to work on it. And that was me when I took my first assessment of emotional intelligence ten years ago, very low empathy. Iâve spent several months, almost half a year, keeping an empathy log so I can start to train my brain to think about someone elseâs emotions. And it got much better, but itâs something I really had to learn.
In parenting, weâre saying regardless of your starting point, this is something that matters. It matters biblical standpoint, itâs truly what Jesus did and still does. It, from an interpersonal standpoint, if you canât put yourself in someone elseâs shoes, that's going to be very difficult for you to have compassion on someone and serve someone to even care when theyâre not in alignment of what you want.
So we have just said this matters. So we are consistently asking our kids when they say something about one of their siblings, âHow do you think so-and-so feels about this? Where are they in this story?â So that's our skill right now, so itâs above any other skills that weâre trying to get. One, as a family of eight, weâre hoping to do that well. If we can, have empathy, so weâre working on that. When I think about our kids being released into the wild, and if they carry that skill with them, it will carry them a long way, regardless of what they do. And I donât need them to get recognized for it in the long way in the sense that they will do well if they do right by people.
[47:29] JONATHAN: Theyâll be a good friend.
[47:31] CLAY: Absolutely. So huge piece in that one, and that's what weâve worked with there. In terms of business, I would say the really big piece of business is if you can listen, understand, and then reinterpret what youâve heard to other people, you canât help but be successful, because people will flock to you because of your ability to do that. I call it the meeting after the meeting in business. And that's someone, we have a meeting and then something is lost in translation and somethingâs then misinterpreted and then that person is, âThat's not what is said. That's not what I meant at all.â And then now they have to go have a meeting about that meeting.
[48:29] JONATHAN: Iâve been in those.
[48:30] CLAY: Youâve been in those. Weâve all been in those. So now youâre having a meeting about a meeting and then youâre going to have to leave that meeting and have another meeting in order to let everybody else know what happened in that meeting after the meeting that should have happened in the meeting. And so that differentiator of active listening, being able to communicate empathetically, being able to communicate clearly. You know in emotional intelligence we would talk about emotional self-expression, to be able to clearly say what youâre feeling, right? You can see that every day almost in practical experiences in yourself where youâve got your typical passive-aggressive, bless you heart type whoâs lying through their teeth. They donât have any blessings for you, but that's what they say. So that type of differentiator in the business sector is massive, itâs just huge, huge.
Tell me the third category.
[49:40] JONATHAN: The church.
[49:42] CLAY: The church, yes. The church, the church, the church. Oh man, this one and a lot of different other places for this one. Iâll pick one, and maybe itâs probably not the most popular one, I was in ministry for, well, ran it for eighteen years and was in almost twenty years, for nineteen years. Had a lot of friends in ministry. And to see where they are now, I would say that ability to handle emotions, not just their own but other peopleâs, burden-bearing perhaps the more specific term, and then to be able to handle the stress of that, to have mechanisms to keep that at bay. The primary term youâre hearing these days is burnout.
Burnout to me is when someone and they have had a moral failure, theyâve stolen money from the church, theyâve ripped their kidsâ lives apart, that's not good. But typically what you see before burnoutâwhen we say burnout, like âHey, I just canât do this anymore,â now theyâre completely unhealthy and that's going into sexual improprieties, that's going into financial improprieties, that's going into the idea of power and where you're getting your validity and things from. So that's what you typically see before the engine hits failure and we get to see it.
And so from that emotional intelligence standpoint, youâre thinking about really self-control. In emotional intelligence itâs called âimpulse control.â Can you have a desire, and understand it, and then make the right decision? That's one of the fifteen subsets that we look at. And if you look at people in ministry, itâs so easy to get away with so many things for too long of a time, and it really comes back to [unintelligible] Scripture because [unintelligible] until itâs too late. So I think impulse control is real big, again in EQ, for the church to say, âHey, you can spend time alone with this person, you could charge this to the credit card, you could do a lot of things [unintelligible] and theyâre going to believe what you say.â [Overlapping voices]
[52:43] JONATHAN: So even in thinking about each of those ones youâve just given us for children (or parenting, rather), workplace, church, itâs interesting because all of those, Iâm just thinking on the side of this in terms of protecting yourselfânot protecting yourself in terms of I want to get away with this, but I want to prevent not having empathy. I want to be able to listen to someone and interpret and relay it back correctly to them. I want to be able to have impulse control. Those all involve, I mean, they are skills of the individual, but at the same time, it requires the assistance of others, I think. Itâs a very communalâwhich, of course, emotional intelligence is about relating with others and self. And so itâs interesting in thinking about the way youâve described or given those examples how much, if youâre setting up safeguards or even beyond safeguards youâre actually wanting to grow and develop in those skills, it requires community, it requires other around you who are committed to the same goals, so to speak. So in your work, do youâsorry, this is like bucketing rain our here. A hurricane is coming to Athens. Are youâdo you encourage people to work these things out, to develop these skills, within a communal setting, accountability levels? And my powerâs just gone off. Weâre still connected, so weâll just keep going.
[54:42] CLAY: Absolutely. I think theâI would encourage every person to have a communal component to every phase of emotional intelligence [unintelligible]. The assessment piece, you can take one by yourself on your computer and get a score and never share it with anyone what you scored and it would never be as effective as if you shared it.
[55:05] JONATHAN: Itâs the navel-gazing example you gave earlier, self-help.
[55:09] CLAY: Weâre trying to gauge our self-awareness and weâre our only judges, and what have we done? So that's why when I do these assessments, my favorite one to do is the 360, because then youâve got different people from all different parts of your life that are assessing you. So the assessment piece has to be in community, right? The understanding the good and the bad has to be verified in community.
One of the things that we do when I take people through this coaching, especially when they come in for the 360, is to look at what we call the gap analysis. And the cool thing about the gap analysis is youâll see it on both sides of the coin. So when people say they have blind spots, what they typically means is letâs say Iâm a person with a blind spot. I almost always say that person thinks that theyâre here and theyâre actually here. They think theyâre betterâwhich could be a blind spot.
On the slip side, a blind spot is that this person thinks that he or she is here and actually theyâre much higher, theyâre here. So they have a lower self-awareness or self-image of themselves in this area than actually what's coming out of them. So you get to see both sides of the gaps. Where are you doing better than youâre actually aware of and where you actually do worse? So that has to be in community.
And then as you work them out and work on the skills, youâre going to have to have people to work them out with and then people to let you know how youâre doing. Every phase has to be in community.
[56:56] JONATHAN: Iâm sure people are listening to this and thinking, âI know someone who needs help with this.â Is it a subject where itâs like, âHey, I sent you a little questionnaire you can fill out to see all your blind spotsâ? How do you broach the subject withâis it like, âHey, Iâm working on some self-improvement stuff. Would you want to do this with me?â How do you find that others engage their colleagues, friends, family members, whatever, to see this, to have some self-awareness and bring it to the forefront without crushing them or coming across judgmental, etc.?
[57:42] CLAY: Yeah, itâs if youâre trying to inspireâIâll use that termâsomeone else to do it, yeah, that's ⊠Thereâs not just one way, because you can have a relationship where you can sayâ
[57:56] JONATHAN: And it depends on the person.
[57:58] CLAY: Depends on the person. I will get called in to work with people who their bosses are saying, âYou have to do this.â They have no choice. And then thereâs other people who would say, âHey, I want to bring this up to my husband. How should I do that?â And they have to do it in a much more nuanced way. So I would definitely encourage people to get to that point where they can be honest. If you can be honest with that person, and this isnât to say, Youâre wrong, youâre broken, youâre damaged,â as much as to say, âThese are skills that both of us or all of us should learn, can we do this together?â Because itâs not, again, Iâm certified in emotional intelligence and I teach it and coach it, but I still have to live it or I wonât be emotionally intelligent. So no one arrives. You learn it, but you still have to do it. So everyone can join in. And that's what I would say the best approach to other people is to say, âHey, letâs do this together.â Because no one can say, âHey, I hope you get to this point.â
[59:13] JONATHAN: When you're like me, then youâve arrived. Well, Clay, this has been such a big help for me just even in understanding the neurological things, the neurological pathways and thinking about my own mental habits that have come in play, thinking about self-awareness, other awareness. I think these are just such important factors. We see them through Scripture. We know the heart of God. We see the sovereignty of God over all things. We can have hope in Him. And just having an awareness of this, I think, helps us to serve the body, to serve the lost in such helpful ways. And so Iâm grateful for your training and your expertise in this area, and Iâm just grateful that you were able to take the time to join us on Candid Conversations.
[01:00:13] CLAY: Glad to have done it. Thank you so much for the opportunity.
[01:00:15] JONATHAN: Of course. God bless.
-
In this thought-provoking episode, the public discourse on gender and transgender issues takes center stage. What defines masculinity and femininity? Is this a contemporary debate or one that has historical roots?
Jonathan Youssef sits down with Claire and Rob Smith from Sydney, Australia, for an insightful conversation on these topics. Rob Smith, a theology, ethics, and music ministry lecturer at Sydney Missionary & Bible College, is also the Assistant Director of Ministry Training and Development for the Anglican Diocese of Sydney. He is pursuing doctoral studies focusing on the theology of sex and gender.
Claire Smith, a writer and womenâs Bible teacher with a nursing background holds a Ph.D. in New Testament from Moore Theological College. She is the author of God's Good Design: What the Bible Really Says About Men and Women.
Claire and Rob are active members of St. Andrew's Anglican Cathedral in Sydney and have contributed to platforms like Desiring God and The Gospel Coalition.
To engage with Jonathan or join the Candid community, visit LTW.org/Candid
Follow us on social media:
Facebook: Candid PodcastInstagram: @candidpodTwitter: @thecandidpod -
In this inspiring episode of Candid, Jonathan Youssef hosts Tyler Van Halteren, a devoted advocate for enhancing the lives of children and youth through Christian faith and storytelling. Tyler, who holds a Masterâs in Divinity from the Master's Seminary, has passionately shared Christâs teachings and the Bibleâs wisdom throughout his life.
Tylerâs journey spans from his role as an Associate Pastor at Gorrie Bible Fellowship in Canada to teaching at Phnom Penh Bible School in Cambodia. A pivotal moment came when he realized the profound impact of 20-minute bedtime stories on his son, inspiring him to merge the charm of storytelling with Biblical teachings.
In 2020, Tyler founded Lithos Kids, embarking on a mission to create biblically faithful and beautifully illustrated childrenâs books. His first book, "Little Pilgrim's Big Journey," launched on Kickstarter, surpassed its funding goal by 500% and quickly became a beloved children's book. Following this success, "Little Pilgrim's Big Journey, Volume 2" and "Volume 3" were also released.
Now residing in southern Ontario, Canada, Tyler continues his mission as both a father and an author, dedicating his efforts to fostering Christian values in young minds.
Tune in to explore Tylerâs journey, the significance of spiritual mentorship, the creative process behind his books, and his vision for faith-based education. This episode is a must-listen for parents, educators, and anyone interested in spiritual growth and innovative approaches to Christian education.
Books by Tyler Van Halteren:
Little Pilgrim's Big Journey Volume 1
Little Pilgrim's Big Journey, Volume 2
Little Pilgrim's Big Journey, Volume 3
Kingdom of God Storybook Bible
To ask Jonathan a question or connect with the Candid community, visit https://LTW.org/Candid
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/candidpod
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/candidpod
Twitter: https://twitter.com/thecandidpod
TRANSCRIPT:
This transcript recounts Candid Conversations with Jonathan Youssef Episode 252: How 20 Minutes Can Impact Your Child's Spirituality: Tyler Van Halteren (Reprise)
JONATHAN: Tyler, thank you so much for taking the time to be on Candid Conversations.
[02:28] TYLER: Yeah, thanks, Jonathan. Itâs a joy to be here.
[02:31] JONATHAN: Well, tell us a little bit about your background, upbringing, and then weâll transition into how you got into writing and producing kidsâ literature.
[02:43] TYLER: By Godâs grace, I came from a Christian home. But one of the most significant moments, and I guess most relevant moments to this interview, was when I was beginning to explore the faith more seriously, not just walking in my parentsâ shoes but actually considering the weight of eternity, heaven, hell, my own faith, my own walk with God, and in that time I found an old 1975 version of Pilgrimâs Progress, paperback, 95 cents, that was given to my dad when he was about that age, about 15, and it just sat on the shelf. So I picked it up, read it, and thatâs the first memory that I have of understanding the Christian life and wanting to follow Christ. Thatâs the first book I remember reading in that season.
So that led, by Godâs grace, to a hunger for His Word, for sharing His Word, and then through various camps I had a great experience in high school. Our Christian high school was connected to a childrenâs camp. And so I was able to teach there and saw a measure of gifting, a desire to teach, and then went on to Masterâs Seminary and then to youth pastor Cambodia. In the midst of all that, had some kids along the way and then started brewing some of these book ideas.
[04:07] JONATHAN: Tell me ... You just sort of lobbed Cambodia into that history. Tell us a little bit about that.
[04:18] TYLER: Yeah, for about 10 years before that, my goal and desire and prayer was to go into missions. And so we set the course for that through seminary, and then even as I joined my church there was a sense of telling them weâre going to be here five years and then we want to be sent out to the mission field. So we went. The goal was to teach the Bible at a Bible school there to college students. Had some other cool opportunities, like with some friends had started childrenâs programs, so Iâd go to villages and there would be 30 kids that would just show up, 30 or 40 Buddhist kids would just come. And they listened to some English teaching, some Bible teaching, and just really neat.
But in the midst of all that, COVID happened and that shut a lot of missions down. But thankfully I was able to finish the Little Pilgrims book during that time. And then also during that time, I started having some significant health issues and that sort of ended upâa variety of numbness and extreme fatigue that kind of landed us back in Canada, but trusting Godâs providence in all that and encouraged now to see there are some of our books being translated into already in Spanish, but some being considered for the Cambodian language, Khmer language. So there is French, Vietnamese, so encouraged to see how Godâs continuing that missionary desire through these books.
[05:44] JONATHAN: Unbelievable. Okay, so youâve shared with us that it was Bunyanâs Pilgrimâs Progress that set you on a particular path. Iâm assuming thatâs the connection to wanting to retell it through a childâs perspective. Tell us a little bit about how those pieces came together.
[06:08] TYLER: Yeah, it was a neat few things that came together. So Iâve always had an entrepreneurial bent, always a desire for that. Buying and selling, doing different things. Little businesses on the side. And that gave a skill set that when my son was about three or four I started looking for, oh, is there a good childrenâs version of Pilgrimâs Progress? And at the time when I looked around, the only version was a 1985 one, Dangerous Journey. I bought that, opened it, and it was the first time Iâve opened a book and my son has sort of screamed and cried in terror at the illustrations. The illustrations were soâ
[06:53] JONATHAN: I have been there. Especially for a three- and four-year-old.
[07:00] TYLER: Yes, absolutely terrifying.
[07:01] JONATHAN: Hereâs the Christian faith, my child.
[07:05] TYLER: Yeah, I saw that, and I thought, Okay, thereâs got to be a way to do a better version, especially for younger kids.
[07:13] JONATHAN: I will say, I have seen one of theâI think itâs more for teenage readers, maybe, and it is very graphic. Apollyon the dragon is very scary and menacing. And youâre right, thereâs a lotâI mean, thatâs the way Bunyan wrote it, right? I mean, it is dramatic, very. But when youâre thinking about little ones, youâve got to tone some of that down so theyâre not actually terrified but wrestling with the core issues. And I feel like your book does that so well.
[07:46] TYLER: Yeah, that was a real delight and surprise. I was writing with my son, three or four years old, in mind. And we read it 20, 30 times together in the process of writing it, and that was all super fun as we got new illustrations and as we pieced things together to see his excitement and to see things, Gospel truths click for him in that journey.
But Iâm coming into this somewhat naĂŻve in a sense. I had no real understanding of the publishing industry and just had this goal. Write this as well as I can, with really great illustrations, for my four-year-old son. And then for whatever reason, the Lordâs taken that, and it seems to have hit that target with a lot of families who say similar things, that these truths are connecting in a special way.
[08:40] JONATHAN: Well, and letâs talk about that. So as a parent, it is hard to find really goodâand I know itâs out there and Iâve got a lot of them. But thereâs not a lot of really great Christian childrenâs books. Itâs either for an age up, as we just talked about, or itâs kind of delves into more of a moralistic, you know, do this, behave this way, obedienceâwhich are true things, but there are so many better, deeper truths that we need to expose our kids to. I think thereâs a longing of parentsâ
I mean, I hear it from moms all the time, âHey, if you can think of a kidsâ book and write it, like go for it.â Because thereâs a real need for that, especially at those young, really vulnerable ages, age category.
[09:44] TYLER: Yeah, and weâve seen a growing hunger in people, and through our social media and connecting with different people that there is this real longing for those kind of resources, and thatâs been an exciting part, too, seeing how much this has resonated with parents, this kind of idea. And thereâs other publishers that are doing some really great, like probably in the last five years really thereâs been almost a resurgence of good, solid books, Gospel-centered books. But before that it was pretty dismal, and that was about the time I started writing was when I was looking around and saying, âOkay, how do we get really good Gospel-centered books that hit the core of these issues for kids?â
And the fun part of that has been the allegory idea of Bunyanâs allegory and seeing how much thatâs resonated with people.
[10:30] JONATHAN: So letâs talk about just the impact I mean, itâs obviously a tradition within ... itâs been around forever, right? Either storytelling with your children before bed, or at a particular time, and just the impact that that has of, one, reading, just reading comprehension, storytelling, kidsâ abilities to have an imagination and picture things. Have you done any kind of research into that I mean, even in your own life and seeing the way that it relates with your own children?
[11:09] TYLER: Yeah, thatâs one of the cool things, I think, for a lot of families, the question of family discipleship, family devotions, those kind of things come up, and itâs challenging in our day and age. Generally, weâre pretty busy people and probably more busy than we need to be, so itâs hard to set aside a time. And sometimes itâs hard to get kids that arenât wiggling during that time, or moving around, or asking, âOkay, when is it over? When is it over?â
[11:36] JONATHAN: You need to draw them in, right?
[11:38] TYLER: Yeah. So for my personal life it was bedtime. They kids knew, okay, we can read. It became part of the routine. And they are also glad because that time theyâre winding down and they know theyâre not going to bed yet, so theyâre getting a little extension. And so that just became a very simple, practical tool for me. Hey, maybe I canât do X, Y and Z with my kids, but 15 minutes before bed, thatâs a pretty easy thing to do. And Iâm seeing how that impacted my son was a real treat and a joy.
Iâm thinking of our book, seeing Christian by the cross, his burden falling off, and him saying to me, âYeah, God ...â Or âDad, thatâs what God does. He removes our burden of sin.â I remember reading David Helmsâ Big Picture Bible, and him seeing Jesus on the cross and saying, âI want to follow Jesus. I want to be saved from my sin. I want to know Jesus.â
[12:42] JONATHAN: Thatâs an iconic scene, isnât it? Bunyanâs ... I mean, even people who havenât read the book are at least somewhat familiar with the scene of his burden falling off his back as he stands at the cross. Itâs such a picturesque scene. You have talked about how heâs recognizing some of these things. What are the other things that are coming through the eye of the child as parents and grandparents are probably listening to this and thinking about weâre trying to help formulate in our children and what theyâre getting from those 15 minutes before bed.
[13:23] TYLER: Yeah, I think a big one Iâve seen, and Iâve heard from a lot of families, is the reality of death and eternity. And I canât think of many kidsâ books that hit that on the nose.
[13:38] JONATHAN: Yeah, itâs not coming up with regularity, thatâs for sure.
[13:40] TYLER: Yeah, yeah. So thatâs not been dodged or snuck in. But reality is ... Yeah, people die. Kids are wrestling with some of these hard truths. They have some of these hard questions and they want answers to them. And so having this, again, the beauty of allegory are these spiritual truths told through images. The River of Death, the idea of someone crossing the River of Death, the sorrow of that and yet the joy of that for believers who enter the kingâs city, the celestial city.
Iâve heard some very, very sweet stories from people and gotten emails that have brought me to tears where someoneâs reading this with their child. Their child is going through cancer and facing death, and that River of Death bringing such a comfort both to the child, the parents, siblings. And for us, when we were in Cambodia, my son would bring that up often. Because weâd left family behind and now weâre going on this journey, in a sense, and thatâs all done in light of eternity. So these metaphors of the celestial city and living for the kingâs kingdom and things like that were all very helpful.
And then one other story from Cambodia, which was seeing the surprise in Cambodian parents, and especially dads, that I would read to my kids for 15 minutes before bed. To me, it seemed like an obvious things. To them, it was very foreign, in literally true sense. But they were surprised. âYou do that with your kids?â
And I said, âOh, you donât?â
[15:20] JONATHAN: Culture shock there.
[15:21] TYLER: Yeah, and they said, âNo, no. They go to bed when they go to bed, and weâre not too involved with that.â
I said, âOh, you should try it.â And some of them... one of the pastors could speak English, and I gave him some copies of the book. And he read it and I remember since weâve left he messaged me saying, âWe still do that every night. We still read to our daughter before bed. And weâve gone through these books these many times and thank you for this.â
I just thought that was a neat way the Lord used that.
[15:53] JONATHAN: So you started with a Kickstarter fundraiser and you blew through your numbers on that. Tell us a little bit about that.
[16:02] TYLER: Yeah, so again this was all kind of a leap of faith and partly the way Godâs wired me, willing to take a risk in that sense. So let people know this book was coming out and just kind of asked friends and family to share as widely as they could on social media and kind of leading towards this Kickstarter. So we launched, and then I was just absolutely shocked as it was within the first hour we far surpassed our initial goal. And just watching the numbers just sort of fly in was a shock and delight.
[16:43] JONATHAN: It looks like you got about 500 percent of your funding. So if you were wondering if that was a need for people, that certainly made its case.
[16:56] TYLER: Yes, it was awesome to see. Okay, we put all this work in and got it ready, and then, oh yes, this does resonate with other people. Other people are hungry for this kind of thing. And weâve seen that tenfold since then.
[17:08] JONATHAN: Youâve talked about how Bunyanâs use of allegory helps bring forth great truths through imagery and picture. Parents are always trying to communicate the Gospel in a way for children at different ages and stages to understand. But sometimes we parents can sometimes if they donât have theological degrees like you and I, they can be overwhelmedâthough having a theological degree doesnât necessarily help you in this category. It's not like how to teach children is one of the classes we get.
But how do you take complex truths and break them down for children? This is one of the primary ways of doing that. But just for you as a dad of young ones, what are some of the other methodologies that you use for breaking that down for kids, big concepts that come, whether itâs through Scripture or spiritual conversation or whatever it is. What other methodology do you use in an effective way?
[18:21] TYLER: Yeah, yeah. A lot of at least homeschoolers talk about living books, like this idea of living books being an engaging way to teach ideas. And thatâs for anythingâscience, et ceteraâto children. And allegories present this idea of a living book, which means truth is coming through in a very natural sort of conversational way. And again, I feel like Bunyan is just the master of that. So what a privilege to follow in his footsteps and toâ
[18:50] JONATHAN: And a good thing he was in prison, right?
[18:53] TYLER: He had a very vivid imagination, and the results of just certain scenes ... And he had such a deep theology and understanding of Godâs Word. So I love in Part 2, which is less known (his original Part 2) thereâs a scene where theyâre walking by the cross with Great-heart, and it just goes into four or five pages on pretty technical like substitutionary atonement. But he does it in a way thatâs so helpful and clear, and so I loved when I was going through Part 2 to take a piece of that and just simplify it. They just go at the cross and itâs a very clear explanation of what it means that the Kingâs Son died in our place. He took our sin. He gave us his righteousness.
And then that, combined with different images of Christianâs filthy clothes are removed, his burden is removed. So things like that I found super helpful. And then another big piece is that kids, especially in this generation, are visual, becoming increasingly more visual learners, so thatâs our big slogan, Biblically Faithful, Beautifully Crafted. And the idea is to have these really vivid, beautiful illustrations that draw kids in.
[20:19] JONATHAN: But they arenât too graphic.
[20:20] TYLER: Yes, yes. That are age appropriate. And then also to have text thatâs sort of clear, deep but simple and not overwhelming, and to pair that up well. We visited a friendâs house, and they had their range of kids from two to seven, and they had all the books out. They said, âWe swear weâre not just...â
[20:44] JONATHAN: Not for you.
[20:45] TYLER: â... because youâre here.â
[20:48] JONATHAN: Itâs normally like this. Well, youâd find that at our house, too. Weâve got both book 1 and 2 wide open on some page.
[20:55] TYLER: Thatâs awesome. And I will see them, just the kids were flipping through the pictures. Like they couldnât read yet, butâ
[21:03] JONATHAN: But they can remember the story associated with the picture, yeah.
[21:08] TYLER: And they just loved flipping through it and looking. And they stare at all the details. And so I think thatâs another aspect that I found very helpful is just these vivid images in books.
[21:18] JONATHAN: Apart from story time with your kids, are there rhythms or patterns or activities that you try and work in to family time that youâve found successful at your home?
[21:34] TYLER: Yeah, I wish I could have more to say. The story book has sort of been my big main one. The other wasâ
[21:42] JONATHAN: And your big emphasis for sure.
[21:44] TYLER: But the other has been sort of the Deuteronomy type of while you are going, while you are walking by the way to instruct your kids in these things. So where heâs just saying, âWrite it on your doorstops. Write it on ...â Like everywhere youâre going, just have these moments. So where kids are inquisitive, kids ask. Itâs a crazy amount of questions per day, I think when you actually ... when youâve done studies of that, Iâm sure.
But if youâre feeding them these biblical things, then theyâre going to have questions about biblical things that come up naturally. Which was another little piece. I mean, like maybe my dad [unintelligible] or something. Weâd always have at nighttime, it would be like, âOh, you can watch a show, but itâs going to be a Bible show.â
I know different families have different rhythms and some donât like shows and some like shows. But first it was an easy switch to just say, âYou want to watch Paw Patrol. Instead, letâs watch something else.â And a lot of those ended up being moralistic, as we kind of said. But at least itâs touching on biblical things.
[22:51] JONATHAN: Well, and you're able to elaborate from that and helpfully redirect them towards a cross-centric faith instead of a duty sort of centrism.
[23:07] TYLER: Yeah, definitely. And so those have led to a neat where theyâre just thinking about things and things are resonating. And so my grandma had died last year, and my son said, âCan we call her?â Like after she died. âCan we video call her because I want to see God? Because sheâs with God.â And so I was like, oh, thatâs such an interesting ...
[23:33] JONATHAN: Heâs got a deep truth with some confusion.
[23:38] TYLER: âSheâs in the presence of God, why wouldnât she have her cell phone? We used to call her. Now canât we call her now?â So then you just have these neat opportunities when youâre just there. Thereâs the input, intentional biblical input, and then theyâre going to be inquisitive, asking questions through the day as we experience ... âWhy does this family do that? Why does my friend have a mom but no dad around?â Or âWhy does this cousin not believe in Jesus?â and things like that.
[24:12] JONATHAN: Yeah. Having kids keeps you on your toes. And if youâre a believing family, then thereâs a lot of questions that I think even the greatest of us could stumble over and so you really need to be filling your own mind with helpful resources. You need to be in the Word and seeking to grow in understanding and knowledge and faith and bearing that fruit of the Spirit. Thereâs, you know, as we kind of laughed about, I mean, kids ask a ridiculous amount of questions. And thereâs times where I think sometimes Iâm like, âIâm done. Done answering your questions. I donât want to do this anymore.â
And thatâs typical selfish mentality of this is about me and not you. But you know, you kind of flip the script a little bit and start thinking, Okay, this could be a really great opportunity for them. And in all their questions thereâs usually something underlying all of that. Fear, doubt, whatever it is. Or sometimes it is just curiosity. So itâs important, I think, for parents to be as available as humanly possible, and really thinking through those things.
And I think sometimes people are afraid. What if I donât know the answer? Then Iâm going to fail my child, or whatever it is. And itâs like, you know, kids donât think in that category necessarily. I think itâs actually quite biblical to say, âYou know what? Youâre asking really good questions. Why donât we look at this together? Why donât we kind of use this as an opportunity to show that mom and dad donât know everything, and theyâre seeking to grow just like you are?â
So tell us a little bit about the Kingdom of God story books. This is another project that youâve done. I donât know if it was before or after Little Pilgrim, Big Journey, but tell us a little bit about that.
[26:12] TYLER: That was after the Pilgrim book, so that was six or seven months ago those landed. And that was a big project, and an excitingâ
[26:22] JONATHAN: Yeah, taking Old and New Testament, thatâs a big undertaking.
[26:28] TYLER: That was the most challenging book Iâve written, obviously, because you want to do honor to Godâs Word and to be faithful. And initially it was going to be birdâs eye overview. So I thought 70 pages and weâll touch on seven different kind of key moments that highlight the kingdom through the Bible. And then as I got into it, I said, Oh, itâs still missing ... like thereâs something ...
[26:53] JONATHAN: Itâs always something.
[26:54] TYLER: ... in between these. And so that grew to 140, and then 280, and then all of a sudden itâsâ
[27:01] JONATHAN: Itâs summer reading.
[27:03] TYLER: Yeah, suddenly itâs a 600-page fully illustrated 45-chapter thing. And the two big goals were one was to incorporate biblical theology, which was to have these themes that are tied through, woven through from Genesis to Revelation, and so the kingdom is one of those big themes. And thereâs many others. So that was an exciting challenge. And then seeing prophecies of the King to come in the Old Testament. Thereâs so many of those. So to highlight those in a very vivid and helpful way was an exciting piece of that. And then just to give a clear understanding of Godâs kingdom.
As Jesus said, âThe Kingdom of God is now in your midst.â He said, âI have come for this purpose: to proclaim the Kingdom of God.â So if thatâs His understanding, Heâs saying, âFor me to come and fulfill what God has promised is to display myself as the King of Godâs kingdom,â which He saw as clearly foreshadowed and set up in the Old Testament. So doing that in a kind of full way that knits. The goal was to sort of be seamless between each chapter and between each kind of scene or book.
And the summary of it was Godâs presence, Godâs people, in Godâs place, through Godâs promise. And each chapter kind of has a summary in that way to connect those things.
[28:28] JONATHAN: Ah, thatâs great. Books on the horizon. I think you have a third Pilgrimâs Progress book coming out. Little Pilgrim, Big Journey, I should call it. I keep calling it Pilgrimâs Progress.
[28:38] TYLER: Thatâs okay. Yeah, Part 3, which Iâm excited about, itâs about the two brothers, Christianâs brothers. They saw their sister cross the River of Death and the king said it was not time for them to come yet. And I thought that was kind of a neat way to extend the allegory. Because some kids have viewed it, okay, weâre going across this journey and then we get to death and then itâs done. And thereâs this bigger picture of mission and evangelism and service. So kind of a follow-up to that. This idea is the king, instead of calling them to cross the River of Death, calls them to go back to their hometown, back to the cities, to proclaim the Gospel and to proclaim that the kingdom is coming. And so these brothers go and they experience the ideas of the Great Commission, missions, evangelism.
[29:29] JONATHAN: Yeah, theyâve taken the mantle from Evangelist.
[29:34] TYLER: Yeah. Yeah, so itâs kind of an exciting. As even Evangelist and Great-heart pass, they say, over the River of Death, they say, âYou take my sword. You go on.â And so I think thatâs a neat challenge and call for kids that have professed faith in Christ now to go back to serve, to spread the Gospel to their friends. And so Iâm excited about that book.
And then thereâs also. Our tribute to Bunyan was a legacy edition of the Pilgrimâs Progress, so just a full, unabridged version more geared towards adults or older kids, teens. And has kind of 150 of the vintage illustrations and itâs just a real treat to read.
[30:17] JONATHAN: Well, my son will be excited for the third. Because he did ask why are Christianaâs brothers stuck on the other side of the river. And so I can give him good news that the third one is coming. This is great. What a helpful conversation. Weâre going to put links for your website and all your books in our show notes. So those of you who are listening, I do recommend these. These are just fantastic. The illustrations are beautiful, they are age appropriate. The story brings through great truths and youâll have great questions.
You do have questions that you ask. My son loves asking questions, and he loves answering questions as well. And so the fact that each chapter has questions that are askedâand theyâre not just recalling information, but there is some application in there as well, which really kind of speaks ... You know, because kids want to have understanding and then kind of relay that back to you. So I think thatâs been a great tool that you guys have put together on that.
[31:24] TYLER: Yeah, thatâs been exciting. Initially, again, God has been gracious in this whole process. Because the first book, I was getting ready to print it, and then I just kind of asked on social media, âWould anyone find questions helpful?â And there was just a ton of response, âYes, yes, please, please.â So I put them in.
[31:40] JONATHAN: 500 percent again.
[31:41] TYLER: Yeah, yeah. And a lot of parents have told us, yeah, these questions at the end of every chapter is such a help in our discipleship.
[31:48] JONATHAN: Itâs so good. So helpful. Tyler Van Halteren, I am so grateful to have met you now that Iâve read through your books. And I hope that they continue to be a blessing for generations, just as John Bunyan has been for many centuries. And again, thank you so much for taking the time to come and chat with us on Candid Conversations.
[32:09] TYLER: Yeah, thank you.
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Have you ever considered the miraculous power of the Gospel message as it transcends borders, languages, and opposition? In this episode, we talk about the profound influence of Christian media in the Arab-speaking world through the compelling experiences of Farid Garas, the Senior Director of THE KINGDOM SAT satellite television and internet channel â a media outreach of Leading The Way with Dr. Michael Youssef.
Farid's narrative is not just about spreading the Gospel; it's a journey of overcoming adversity, embracing his identity in Christ, and changing lives in a region where broadcasting Christian content can defy expectations and alter eternity.
Embark on a captivating journey with Farid, a man who once questioned Christianity but now plays a pivotal role in shaping Christian media in a region where such content has often faced significant obstacles. His encounters with authorities, far from deterring him, only reinforced his commitment to his faith and mission, making his story a testament to the power of unwavering faith in Christ.
Through this conversation, Farid highlights the strategic use of drama, film, and satellite television to spread the Christian message, reaching out to believers and those searching for Truth in tumultuous times. He discusses the growth of THE KINGDOM SAT, its impact, and the continuous efforts to foster a connection with the audience through live broadcasts and digital platforms.
This episode not only delves into Farid's personal and professional life but also provides a deeper understanding of the challenges and opportunities in media and ministry. Through their resilience and dedication, Farid and THE KINGDOM SAT team offer hope to millions in the Middle East, demonstrating the transformative potential of faith-based media in the face of adversity.
To ask Jonathan a question or connect with the Candid community, visit https://LTW.org/Candid
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TRANSCRIPT:
This transcript recounts Candid Conversations with Jonathan Youssef Episode 251: Broadcasting Hope: Farid Garas.
[01:28] JONATHAN: Today we have a special guest, an in-house guest here at Leading The Way. Farid Garas is the senior director of the Kingdom Sat. The Kingdom Sat is our 24/7 satellite channel for the Arab-speaking world, taking biblical teaching and different types of programming through satellite television and internet to the Arab-speaking population. He has become a good friend and I am so honored to have him joining us on Candid Conversations. Farid, thank you for joining us.
[02:06] Farid: Thank you, Jonathan, and I would say congratulations. This is the first podcast after being Dr. Jonathan Youssef. So congratulations. Itâs an honor to be with you.
[02:16] JONATHAN: Well, itâs an honor to be with you. And you are doing some doctoral work yourself. And we can get into that a little bit later for those who are listening, youâre from Egypt. Tell us a little bit about growing up and your life story and then we can transition into how you got into broadcast ministry.
[02:39] Farid: Yeah. I feel I am a minority of the minority, an evangelical Christian in Egypt. And that was a great blessing. I didnât like it in the beginning, feeling that minority Iâm not like everyone else, but it was great. My father was a scientist. He studied science, and he didnât like all the Christian religious ideas at that time, talking mainly about the traditional Coptic traditions or Christian traditions. And he always thought that those Christians are cheesy and he didnât like that.
So his two sisters invited him to a Christian conference, and he said, âOkay, Iâll go. But after the first day I will not like it and I will go back home.â So he tried to flee from the conference three times, and those good Christians would go after him and bring him back.
[03:42] JONATHAN: Kicking and screaming.
[03:44] Farid: Yeah. So God grabbed his attention through Bible study, and also because of the witness of those Christians that went after him. He discovered that those Christians are really good people. They are professionals. They are not cheesy. They are very intellectual, they are funny, they are successful. So he was attracted to God by the witness and the Bible study. The following year, after studying the Bible for one year, he became very excited about this paradigm shift that God allowed him to go through just by knowing the Lord, and he led the conference the following year. He invited eighteen people from his family, young people, and long story short, they all became Christians. They confessed ⊠they gave their lives to the Lord.
[04:36] JONATHAN: Were they from a Coptic background?
[04:41] Farid: Yeah, they are nominal Christians, mainly. And many of them are leaders in the Christian ministry now. And he played a great role in my life, not just by the Christian teaching, but by his example to me. And he showed me it was a balance between unconditional love and discipline. And itâs like your father played a great role in your life, and that prepared me to know the Lord more and to be ready for ministry.
[05:14] JONATHAN: Yeah, yeah. So tell us a little bit about your upbringing. Your fatherâs obviously grown into leadership roles within the Christian community, the evangelical community. Youâre grown up in a covenant home, where youâve heard the Word taught. Tell us a little bit about your faith journey.
[05:37] Farid: Yeah. So my father and mother brought us in a church setting and in a covenant environment, and they prepared us to hear the word of the Lord in house and also in church. But as a teenager, even a kid in an evangelical church, you get to hear the salvation message more than one time. But one time I remember, and the teacher has related with me, it was a play about the end of days. And the last line in the play, the main character talks to the audience and says, âWhat if Jesus came today? Are you going to be here or there?â
And of course, it was so dramatic. And so I went home and couldnât sleep. I was thinking of all the events of that day. Is my life really Christian? Am I up to the standard that God accepts? And do I enjoy His redemption just because I want to get released of the ⊠get out of ⊠get out of hell?
[06:50] JONATHAN: Yeah, sure. Get out of hell.
[06:53] Farid: If only that reason, not relationship. So I couldnât sleep, thinking about all these things, and I had to go to the school the following day. I was so tired. So I came back after the school, had a nap, woke up, found Iâm home alone; nobodyâs home. So I thought, âUh, oh.â
[07:14] JONATHAN: Itâs happened.
[07:16] Farid: Yeah. So this was one of the times that God not only grabbed my attention I think He was preparing me for how media ministry could be a tool in evangelism and in Christian life.
[07:34] JONATHAN: So the impact of that performance left a mark on you that you wanted to continue to build upon that.
[07:44] Farid: Yes. After that, I was becoming like a dedicated Christian. Okay, I need to study the word. I need to practice all these things. And as a result for that, I was invited by the Christian religion teacher, in the middle school, to talk. We have those Christian classes. They separate Muslims and Christians, each group in one class, and there is a curriculum, but he would finish the curriculum and then ask me, âOkay, Farid, tell us what you think about this.â
Mainly, Iâm the only evangelical. He wanted to know what those evangelicals say, so I would share. And then mostly it went all right, apart from one of my colleagues who was very rigid, very extreme, and he would say all those things, âOh, you evangelicals say this.â âOh, you say that.â And long story, but it ended up that we became best friends and he gave his life to the Lord. We used to study every night together and so on. And after he became Christian, he has these leadership qualities and he became also excited. And together we started this evangelistic drama team. This drama team grew very fast because it was very effective. We wrote our own plays, we performed in churches, in youth meetings. Even we started our like independent Christian theater festivals. Like we would do three plays in three nights, and it was very well received. Like most of the nights we find that we have double the number of audience, so we need to perform twice and so on. And we even came here to Atlanta in 1996, during the Olympics, to help in evangelistic campaigns for the Arabic speakers.
[09:59] JONATHAN: Wow. I donât know what to call it. The drama bug had been captured and youâre seeing this as a tool for evangelism, for outreach even internationally., I think you start to recognize that this is only a small stage. Explain to us how the doors opened up to having a bigger reach and a bigger audience.
[10:30] Farid: Yeah, the drama bug is only like a tool in evangelism. And in the Christian media Iâve been for many years, you would find like two extremes. One extreme you would find some very interesting, exciting but shallow content. On the other side you can find very good, deep teaching, very sophisticated, spiritual, biblical but sometimes boring.
[10:57] JONATHAN: This is through television medium.
[10:59] Farid: Yeah. And the theater and radio. So, I mean what was special about this team that God showed us how He could use the good content, because the gospel is the core. And when we started presenting the gospel in the drama tool that would communicate to people in our age, we found that it needs to be like this formula. We cannot let one play to be just popular because itâs funny. And we found that God is growing the work.
So it started with theater, then we started to do some radio with TransWorld Radio, like doing drama on radio and so on. And we went to television. You know in Egypt in those years, early, until early 90s, thereâs no Christian content available for public audience, even Christians. We are 10 to 15 percent. But the national television would allow a Christian Mass only on Christmas, so itâs like one hour per year.
So we said, okay, how can we break into television? And it was hard. There was no way. So we tried to read books, practice, and we started like drama schools. We donât know anything, but we start inviting people to teach us. And I wanted to study more about media like in a professional way, so I saved money, worked for eight years, then came here to the States, studied digital filmmaking school, did some internship. Then went back to Egypt, completed more studies, did the diploma in film production and directing in the American university.
[13:00] JONATHAN: So your heart was always to go back to Egypt. Yeah.
[13:03] Farid: Yes. I mean, it was very good over here. I studied in Hawaii, then internship in San Diego. The goal is to do ministry, so I went back to Egypt and completed this study, which allowed me to be part of the cinema syndicate and also to have my own production house. So it all started from just the first play that introduced me to the Lord, and then it continued to do more. Now I have to do more work for the mainstream media and the Christian.
And this production house was very successful. God gave me favor in my vendors and producers and it went fast because mainly I learned here in America a different style than the Egyptian national television. Minimum crew doing quality work in a different way. Of course, technology and so on. And I got the hands-on experience. So I had still the main goal was to do ministry using media, but I was able to fund the Christian work from the secular work I used to doâmainly corporate videos, advertisements and documentaries and so on. So they complemented each other. And it grew like for 2003 to 2009 like for six years.
[14:44] JONATHAN: Wow. Wow. Sort of paint a picture for us. What does it look like, up to that point, before thereâs television broadcasts, evangelistic broadcasts being allowed in the country? What did sort of radio and drama team, what does that kind of penetration into the population look like?
[15:07] Farid: I mean, you could easily say there is none official media for Christians. They would allow some official magazine or newspaper from the Coptic Church and some from the evangelical, but mainly they would be accepted only in a church setting. So there is no mass media, no radio. So we had Christian radio, TransWorld Radio, that was being broadcast fromâ
[15:40] JONATHAN: South of France, yeah. Monaco.
[15:41] Farid: So you could only receive it at like 10:30 PM to 11:30 PM, and you have to be in an area where thereâs not a lot of buildings and so on. It was a great blessing. Many people knew the Lord from it. But it didnât serve the mass, those true seekersâMuslims, Christians, nominal Christians. So that was the case until â96 when Christian satellite was there as a technology. The government didnât allow it, but it was there.
[16:16] JONATHAN: So that's kind of your introduction into the television world in terms of Christianity.
[16:24] Farid: Yes. I mean, itâs now available. Can we break into that? After the study and this production house, I was able to share in lots of production. And before that, God had prepared me with working in dubbing Christian media, like Jesus Film, VeggieTales, Super Book, as an actor. And it was a great experience.
[16:55] JONATHAN: And where were those being broadcast?
[16:58] Farid: In one of the production houses that actually itâs like a Christian place but also recognized as a production house. So I got some training in that, and when the satellite started, I was one of the first ones that were ready to do a part.
[17:19] JONATHAN: So letâs kind of move the timeline forward as Christian media is now being produced. And at what point does the government allow satellite broadcasting?
[17:35] Farid: You know they didnât allow it because satellite is broadcasted from abroad. So in order to stop it, they had to stop all the bouquet of channels, so they couldnât do that. So it first started on one of the satellites that was Europe-based, but if you have a big satellite dish and receiver, you could receive it at home.
And itâs different than here in America. I mean, satellite in the Middle East is free to own. So you just spend maybe $15 or so to have a device recorder and you receive about two thousand channels. So among them are one Christian channel, so if the government wants to stop, they have to stop everything, so they couldnât.
[18:31] JONATHAN: Right. Thereâd be too much backlash. [18:48] So letâs fast-forward. Itâs 2009. Youâre very busy. Tell us a little bit about what's going on in that year.
[18:57] Farid: Yeah. It was a very important year. At that time, I was busy doing production with different now-Christian satellites. They are more than one now and I already started as a part time in one of the satellite ministries out there and at the same time I was having my production house. And I read a book in one of my visits to Europe and America about Muslim testimonies. You never read those in Egypt, so I thought maybe I should film some. I was naĂŻve. I didnât know everything is like under surveillance. So I had this studio in my production house. I was doing lots of projects, but this one I said, okay, I need to be careful just in case, so Iâll do it in a secret environment.
But it wasnât. So I filmed those testimonies and the following day I started to get visits from the national security. And the way it was done, it wasnât likeâthey didnât come and say, âWe are the national security. WE want to investigate those Christian projects.â No. First they would send like one department of some kind of police, checking the social security or checking the telephone or electricity.
[20:40] JONATHAN: They were spying on you.
[20:42] Farid: They wereâI mean, in Egypt, I mean, not all the businesses would have all the papers right. So the plan was to find something wrong to make a case against this office without saying itâs religious, just to keep the face for the media in the West. So they didnât find anything wrong. It took like five weeks, several visits. So the last one they said, âOkay, there is a censorship case against you.â Usually, those are copyrights or not using original software, which is very common in Egypt. But my software was original. I had no violations. But the case was still there.
And then the national security officer called me in his office. I mean, before all that happened, God prepared me. I had this shooting day with kids at 9:00 AM.
[21:45] JONATHAN: Filming, yeah.
[21:46] Farid: Yeah, it was prepared and everything is in place and I had a dream or vision that I woke up early, like 5:00 AM, very alert with this impression that an officer or someone from the security will come and ask about me. And I knew this was from the Lord because it came with a sense of peace. It should be scary because I know what could happen.
[22:17] JONATHAN: Yeah, right. And youâve got a wife and kids andâ
[22:20] Farid: Yeah. Itâs ⊠So I started praying, like reading the Bible and committing the day to the Lord, and I met my friend and production manager at 7:00 AM. I said I had this dream, so I smiled and he said, âWhat do you want to do? Do you want to cancel shooting today?â I said, âNo, no. But if the officer came, please call me outside not to scare the kids.â
And we started at 9:00 AM filming. Everything went all right until 3:00 PM I got the visit. They mainly told me âThere is a warrant against you. Come to the national security office at 11:00 PMâ at night. That's like usual part of the environment youâre put in. And at that meeting, the officer confronted me. âWhy are you filming those infidels?â according to the apostate law, they were Muslims, now they are Christians, they are supposed to be under this apostasy law. Apostasy law in Islam if someone left Islam heâs supposed to be executed. Itâs not applied in Egypt, but the concept is there, so itâs not allowed by the families or by the regime orâ
[23:45] JONATHAN: Right. Itâs an intimidation factor, yeah.
[23:47] Farid: Yeah, for the what they call the public peace and so on. And he said, âWhy did you do that?â
I said, âI'm a professional director and filming what they have to say.â
And he said, âYeah, but tell me how much would you take, I see you produce a lot of Christian content.â
I said, âYes.â
He said, âOkay, this Christian music video,â itâs all like a lot of content from my production house. âHow much do you take like to produce one?â
I said, âYeah, like one thousand pounds.â
âOkay, what if you do like a music video, secular, mainstream one?â He said, âHow much would you take?â
I said, âI will be like about fifteen.â
âFifteen thousand to one thousand. So why would you choose to do the Christian work?â
I said, âIâd like you to watch one of those music videos, secular ones. Would you be happy to show them to your family, to your kids? I want my family to be proud about what I present.â
And he said, âOkay, why did you film those testimonies or stories. For them itâs like disaster.â
I said, âThey ⊠I mean, according to the constitution, we have freedom of speech, right?â
âOh yeah, okay.â And he said, âOkay, do you have license for the production?â
I said, âYes.â
And he started asking questions, and we ended up having a case of censorship. And I asked the lawyer at that time, âOkay, why is it censorship. I had nothing wrong.â
He said, âYeah, because itâs national security, itâs classified. They cannot declare it.â And this lawyer was a Muslim. He said, âWeâre going to win this.â
So God placed that lawyer after like four different lawyers, and that lawyer took maybe five months to one year, I think, until the case was resolved. And it was what was so-called Arab Spring, the revolution.
[26:00] JONATHAN: Yeah, the people will remember watching that footage back at 2011 and the revolution in the streets and the overthrow of Mubarak and then somewhat of an election that took place afterwards, yeah.
[26:18] Farid: Yes. And during that time, the case was released. And actually they had confiscated two of my editing machines. One of them had my first Christian evangelistic feature film footage and the other one had the backup, so it was unfortunate. I have many other agents witness, but then God really gave us favor in getting those back after all the police stations were burned and somehow God kept those editing suites and the footage, and this film was released and it was even screened here in America.
Itâs an evangelistic movie about an immigrant who thinks that heâs persecuted because heâs Christian. He doesnât know that his problem is he doesnât have this relationship with God. So he comes here to America and finds that there is another set of challenges, and then he gets to know the Lord and then his life starts to take a positive turn and that film was here in cinemas in I think 2012 and it was shown in five states who have heavy Arabic-speakers population.
[27:46] JONATHAN: Well, this wasnât your only run-in with the Egyptian authorities. You continue to produce content and then you find yourself in a similar situationâa worse situation.
[28:02] Farid: Yes. Now I have a file.
[28:06] JONATHAN: That's right.
[28:22] Farid: Yeah, during those years, God made a great awakening in Egypt after the revolution. It was both religious, ritual, biblical and also political for young people especially. And there was not a lot of control at that time, so a lot of ministries were able to go out and do more. One of them was this Christian satellite that I was part of, and God gave us a chance to do things we never were able to do before, like this prayer night, twelve-hours prayer gathering, around 35 thousand. That's like first time in Egypt. And they were gathered at the Cave Church, praying from night to morning, because police were not there. Usually, police does not allow this in the name of security and alsoâ
[29:25] JONATHAN: I mean, just for context, this is after the election ofâremind me his name.
[29:34] Farid: Sisi?
[29:35] JONATHAN: No. Before Sisi. Morsi. So this is after the election of Mohammed Morsi.
[29:41] Farid: No, this was in 2011.
[29:42] JONATHAN: In between. Okay, so this is after Mubarak has been sort of deposed.
[29:52] Farid: Yeah. I mean, the army was in control at that time, but there was no president, so there was some more freedom.
[29:59] JONATHAN: So thereâs these all-night prayer meetings taking place in this Cave Church.
[30:04] Farid: Yeah. This was 11/11/2011, and it was a great night because it was from all non-official Christian leaders gathering together. And a lot of people, a lot Christiansâand Muslimsâgathered. Because of all what was happening, people were praying, âGod, we need you in this country.â
And the satellite ministry I was in broadcasted that live. We experienced a lot of trials for interruption, but God miraculously allowed us to be alive. And a lot of the mainstream media were shocked to see what was happening with the number of people, the prayers for peace, including Al-Jazeera channel. So they called me and said, âCan we have your feed?â And I said, âSure, of course.â
[31:01] JONATHAN: You said 35 thousand people gathered.
[31:03] Farid: Yes.
[31:04] JONATHAN: I mean, that's just hard to imagine.
[31:07] Farid: So a lot of these events took place, a lot of production, a lot of live programs on satellite, and people were all the time looking at news and they really were looking for hope. They lost trust in the government, they lose trust sometimes in their religious leaders, and they were looking for Jesus. And we presented the hope of Jesus Christ through satellite ministry.
So the regime came back in 2014 and another case wasâI mean, the same scenario happened again. They came to the satellite ministry office, confiscated the machines, like a lot of people, I think there were eleven, twelve people, and they were looking for me. It was the weekend and I wasnât there, so they called me. I went there and then direct to jail, to a case of five charges, very serious charges.
[32:12] JONATHAN: Each of them carried the penalty of fifteen to twenty-five years.
[32:15] Farid: The minimum. The minimum one of them. And of course, they were false accusations, but in those cases, it doesnât matter.
[32:29] JONATHAN: Justice may not prevail.
[32:30] Farid: Yeah, it was serious, but the team members started praying, and actually many prayers around the world started because this time it was this Christian ministry, so it was well known. When this happened in 2009 in my office, nobody knew because itâs like my private thing. But now many people started to pray. But it wasnât the only case at that time. I mean, the regime started to be back and there was a message through different things. Okay, the regime is back, everything needs to be back now in law and order according to our system. So those who took more freedom politically, they need to go back to their borders, to their limit. Christians who have been talking and doing a lot of ministry, no, they need to stop.
[33:25] JONATHAN: Restricted freedoms, yeah.
[33:28] Farid: Islamists need to do the same. So they closed a lot of Muslim channels and they had many cases against activists and the revolutionists. And this was the biggest satellite ministry, so this was like a statement that no one needs ⊠everyone needs to go back to the original setup. You should know your limits. Donât evangelize Muslims, donât get too involved in politics and so on.
So this case was very serious, and I got very scared. Just I remember in jail that night just thinking. I read the law, and it seemed like Iâll not go out. And just thinking of my three kids and my wife and said, âLord, what is going to happen?â I got really ⊠itâs like a panic attack what would happen.
And the other prisoner that was in the same cell had smuggled a cell phone, so he said, âYeah, do you want to talk to your family?â I said, âYes.â âOkay, Iâll give you a call. Let them transfer $15 for each minute.â
So I called my wife, and she said, âWeâre praying for you.â And my eleven-years daughter said, âWeâre praying for you and I want to share with you the verse from Joshua, âBe courageous and be strong.ââ And it communicated to my spirit.
In the first case, my wife was afraid. She used to walk in the streets with the kids, holding her passports in her case because it was so scary with all those visits. But this time, I was scared, she was confident, and she encouraged me. And my daughter, my kids, at that time they were very young, but somehow God gave them peace, although I was in jail.
And miraculously, God resolved this case. And you wonât believe this, Jonathan, but all the cases that were initiated at that time are not resolved till today.
[36:02] JONATHAN: Except for yours.
[36:03] Farid: Yeah. It was a miracle. I can tell you details, but it was a miracle by the hand of God. And yeah, so Iâ
Actually, it was a very special testimony for me during those times. I was released from jail, but the case was still there, so I had a conversation with God. And I said, âGod, I am scared. I think itâs time to flee the country.â
And I felt in my spirit God is saying no. I said, âWhy, God? There are biblical escapes. Joseph and Mary and the baby. Could this be one?â
[36:46] JONATHAN: Peter, Paul.
[36:47] Farid: Yeah. Can you let me go? How do I face those charges? There was no way this case is going to be resolved. And God asked me one question. He said, âDo you believe what you present on screen, or this is separate from you actually?â
[37:08] JONATHAN: Is your faith in the thing that you stand behind as a broadcast, yeah, yeah.
[37:13] Farid: âIs it only for commercial or is it real? Do you believe I can resolve this no matter what laws are there, no matter what situation?â
And I met with my mentors, I prayed with my wife, and I spent time with the Lord the same night, and I ended up saying, âGod, Iâm yours and I have peace to stay and I am not afraid but I trust you will take care of this, whatever happens.â
And I returned the flight ticket I had booked. Actually, my wife said, when I said that, she felt like Iâm under a lot of pressure. She said, âYeah, you can buy a ticket and we have twenty-four hours to return it for free.â And I returned the ticket and it took those five months of investigations, visiting court and all that, but it was resolved. And I spent a few more months in the same ministry and I felt itâs time to move on and I felt, okay, I need now some time to pray and see what is next. I had confidence through prayer and through checking with my leaders that it is time for me to move on. But I stayed until God said yes and got the blessing of the leaders and family and all that. And I became independent now, not knowing what to do, and spent some time to pray and ask God what's next.
[39:02] JONATHAN: And what was next? You had a special introduction, you read a book, you read another book.
[39:12] Farid: Yeah! You know I was in a trip in 2014 while being very busy with my production house and our satellite ministry, so in that trip to Lebanon, I had some free time at night. I finished meetings and I selected a book from the library, and it was Dr. Youssefâs book, Trust and Obey. And I couldnât stop reading it until I finished it, because I could resonate with him. And now I know Dr. Youssef from satellite, I know his faithfulness to the Word of God, but I donât know him as a person. I mean, I know him as a minister, as a speaker.
So his testimony in Trust and Obey was very fascinating for me. I could visualize what he was telling in his book about his upbringing and all his stages he went through, because of course, my journey was much shorter, different, but I could understand a lot of what he was saying from being there in this culture that he was brought in.
And I said this book should be filmed sometime, I mean this testimony. But I have no way of doing that. And so it took two years, and now I am free after 2016. I now have no job. I went to Germany, where my wifeâs family are having ministry there, and we stayed there a few months to pray and seek God, and then I got an invitation from Joshua Youssef. âWhy donât you come to help us at the Kingdom Sat?â
I said, âI just moved from Egypt to Germany. Iâm not sure what's coming.â
He said, âYeah, pray about it and maybe you can start on a contractor basis, as a consultant.â
So I said, yes, that seems good. I prayed about it, of course, and I started coming here to the Kingdom Sat, Leading The Way, and started coming every month for one week or so. And after six months, I had total peace about it and I said, âYes, Joshua, if you still feel there is a place for me.â
He said yes. I met with Dr. Youssef, of course, and they took around one more year to do the visa work and so on, and then I came and joined Kingdom Sat. That was in 2017.
[41:46] JONATHAN: Tell us about Kingdom Sat. For our listeners who maybe arenât familiar, broadcasting started in 2009, you joined the team in 2017. Who does it reach? Where does it go? What's the fruit thatâs being borne from it?
[42:07] Farid: Yeah, the Kingdom Sat is a vision of Dr. Youssef. God gave him the vision in 2004, and it took five years in the making because he wanted to have a solid, biblical channel that broadcast the best of the east and the best of the west in terms of Bible teaching. And God used Maged Atalla, my colleague, to start this. Heâs an engineer. He made a great foundation following the vision of Dr. Youssef and a lot of partners who came together with Dr. Youssef to present their content on the Kingdom Sat that's being translated into Arabic. So this was a big part of what's being broadcasted on the Kingdom Sat, along with selected Bible teachers from the Middle East as well.
So it was a great foundation. So I came on a great foundation on a time where social media was coming, live broadcast was being introduced more and more, and when I joined, Joshua asked me, âWhat proposal do you have for the Kingdom Sat? What do you think?â
And I presented a proposal and mainline I met with him and Dr. Youssef and said, âThis is what I think. I think Kingdom Sat is a great channel, but itâs more like radio. If you turn the screen off and only listen, you donât lose anything. We have a great tool. We can present visuals. We can do more. So I think itâs great, but one of the things that we need to do is doing more formats, more genres. We need to reach more peopleâespecially those who are underprivileged like women, kids, young people in the Middle East. And we need to reach out to the non-Christians.
He said, âYeah, this is our vision.â And actually Dr. Youssef said, âYeah, actually we made a survey and this is what we reached.â And he quoted one of the friends in Egypt. He told them âthe Kingdom Sat is like a big, huge, elegant department store, but you enter and you found only navy blue suits, size 42.â
And he laughed at that and they said, âYes, we want to do more.â
And I started working on that, like different lines like having broadcasting live, like have live broadcasts, especially from Church of the Apostles. And this was a continuation for the people in the Middle East to know what's this vision. Who is Dr. Youssef? Who is Jonathan? Who are those singers in the Church of the Apostles? And I think that made a great connection, especially with those who donât have churches, like in Nigeria or those placesâ
[45:25] JONATHAN: Where you're isolated andâ
[45:27] Farid: And they write on Facebook when we broadcast live. For example, when youâre preaching they would say, âOh Jonathan, God bless you and God bless your father. God bless the church,â as if they are there in the church. And in the communion time, they will talk âWe donât have a church, so weâre taking communion with you now. Weâre praying.â
And the first time in Easter 2018 it was the first time to do live, God encouraged us by two Arabic speakers in the Middle East giving their lives to the Lord. So it was encouragement so we started that once a month, then during the COVID time, we started to do it on a regular basis. So itâs a great blessing to have these live broadcasts. And we started to introduce a lot of digital platforms, like Apple TV, Roku, Smartphone application. We updated the website and streaming. So we started to add more genres, add more partners from the west and east, so a lot of things happened.
And today the Kingdom Sat reaches 260 million households in the Middle East, and they receive this ministry for free. And anyone with an internet connection can receive the content of the Kingdom Sat.
[46:47] JONATHAN: And letâs talk a little bit about the follow-up process, because you have people that are standing by phones to answer calls. What are some of the questions and feedback that you get from the broadcast?
[47:03] Farid: A lot of viewers are very true seekers, even those from Muslim background, and they are faithful. They really seek God. So they send questions, sometimes in a provoking way, sometimes attacking, but they keep watching. They will attack one time, and then the field team would respond to them in a graceful way and helping them, so they would come back, watch again, and raise another question. And we have great testimonies of those viewers that only watched by chance the Kingdom Sat, they watch some program, and they would keep interacting with us until they become Christians, they commit their lives to the Lord, and they get baptized. Then they join an online study group for discipleship or we would connect them with a local church. So this is one type of persons, those true seekers. And as I said, it changes from very extreme attackers to true seekers that are ready to accept Christ.
And the second persona we serve is the new believers. Some people knew the Lord through the Kingdom Sat or online or somewhere else but they donât have a place to grow.
[48:37] JONATHAN: They need discipleship, yeah.
[48:39] Farid: Yeah, and not to compare, but the Kingdom Sat is very distinct about presenting biblical teaching, solid. Other ministries would present this shallow content that we spoke about. So that's the second persona, like new believers. Third persona is mature believers who are in ministry, for example, and they want to grow, they want to learn. And some of those viewers would write, for example, in YouTube, âI am watching the series so-and-so for Dr. Youssef. Where is episode number 15? I want to finish it tonight!â
[49:19] JONATHAN: Weâre on top of you. That's right.
[49:21] Farid: So they are the three main personas. There are subcategories, but we have a great field team that is dealing 24/7 with any viewer who has a question or he wants a prayer request or they ask even other, general questions.
[49:39] JONATHAN: And what's the risk for those people that are on the ground, field team workers? I mean, youâre working in a hostile environment. Itâs not like youâre in Oklahoma fielding calls. Youâre in the thick of it.
[49:54] Farid: That have the same risk I faced. And yeah, I mean, but again what I experienced. They are also in the protection of God. But they could be charged, they could be persecuted, detained, or all this could happen in an indirect way by the community, by their families. But this doesnât stop them. Most of those in the field team are coming from a Muslim background, have theology degree, so that's their life goal, their vision.
[50:39] JONATHAN: Well Farid, your story is just ⊠itâs fascinating to me the beginning with the drama, you coming to the West, coming to America, then going back, facing the adversities, then coming back here and now you're presenting on a global stage the very thing that led you to the Lord. And weâre just so thankful for the work that you do and the work of the Kingdom Sat. And weâre so grateful that you took the time to sit with us and share your story here on Candid Conversations. Thank you for being with us.
[51:13] Farid: Thank you, Jonathan. Itâs an honor to be here, and itâs great to be in the kitchen how things are done here. And I see the hand of the Lord every day in this, in your family, in the ministry of the Church of the Apostles, Leading The Way, and itâs God work and Iâm very grateful to be here.
[51:35] JONATHAN: Well, weâre grateful for you. Thank you, Farid.
[51:36] Farid: Thank you.
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Is there something more than this life? This world is full of crises, conflicts, difficulties, and troubles, but this world will not last. No matter your age, your earthly life is slowly slipping away. This is why Jesus encourages us not to store up treasures on this earth but to invest in heaven.
In this 250th episode of Candid Conversations, Dr. Michael Youssef joins Jonathan for a father-son conversation about his new book, Heaven Awaits. This book is written to help you understand the future promise of heaven in Christ Jesus. Explore what the Bible says about heaven and envision the wonders and glories awaiting those who believe in Christ.
Heaven is real, far more real than your earthly experience right now.
To ask Jonathan a question or connect with the Candid community, visit https://LTW.org/Candid
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Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/candidpod
Twitter: https://twitter.com/thecandidpod
TRANSCRIPT:
This transcript recounts Candid Conversations with Jonathan Youssef Episode 250: Understanding the Future Promise of Heaven: Dr. Michael Youssef
[00:01] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: Today, we have a very special guest in Dr. Michael Youssef. And he comes on our program because heâs written another book. And we have you on quite often because you write a lot of books.
[00:17] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF Thank you. And Iâm glad to be in your Dr. Youssef show now, Dr. Jonathan Youssef.
[00:23] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: And we have to change the title.
[00:24] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF Congratulations.
[0:25] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: Thank you very much. You have written a book on heaven. This is your first book on heaven as far as Iâm aware. Tell us about why.
[00:39] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF Iâve thought of heaven since I was a young man. Iâve never really been away from that thought. But also I am seeing so much confusion, so much confusionânot just in the world at large, which you can understand the devil sold us a lie in order to deceive people, but the churches are now confused, pastors are confused about heaven. And the world basically entered into their hearts, into their thinking, and everything is about this life, this life, this life, which is a very tragic situation that we find ourselves in as a Church of Jesus Christ. And my biggest concern is to alert and wake up the bride of Christ as to their greatest day, and itâs yet to come.
Where youâre going to spend eternity is so important. In fact, the very first story I open up the book with was back in 1977. In February of â77, my wife and I and two little ones came here from Australia. But weâve done a lot of research finding out where weâre going to live, what the country is about, what the culture is about, and so on, and this is just for a place weâre going to live for two years, which we did, in Pasadena.
And how much more should we be doing those same preparations and research for where weâre going to be forever? I mean, just think. People canât fathom that. Because they canât fathom it, they take it out of their mind forever and ever and ever.
[02:34] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: âGives you a little bit of a buzz, doesnât it, just the thought of it. Yeah, because everything we know comes to an end. This is the only thing I think we can consider has no end.
[02:44] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF Exactly. And the point I make even in the early part of the book is that there is only one ticket that takes you to heaven, and that is the ticket that's stamped with the blood of Jesus. I say there are a lot of fake tickets out there. that have been handed by Satan through Hollywood, through false churches, through false teachers and false preachers.
[03:12] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: Or your own mind.
[03:13] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF Or your own mind. But those are the tickets that are not going to get you to heaven. Only the one that's stamped with the blood of Jesus Christ. On what basis do I have the confidence that Iâm going to heaven? The blood of Jesus Christ, period. My ticketâs stamped with that blood.
[03:26] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: That leads us to the next topic, which is letâs talk a little bit about the misconceptions out there, and you can blend the twoâbut coming from the Hollywood mentality. Are those the same as what you see in churches that have lost their way? Are they different?
[03:53] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF Slightly different, but they lead to the same hell.
[03:57] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: Right. They go to the same place.
[03:58] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF Because Hollywood and the New Age movement, even with this lady who supposedly died and went to heaven and came back and she was interviewed by Oprah, and she said to her, she said, âJesus told me Heâs not going to judge anybody. Live any which way you want.â
And then Oprah said, âWell, if I think Jesus is as cool as I think He is, He would have said that to you.â
[04:21] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: Contradicting Himself? [overlapping voices]
[04:26] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF Yeah. And so the fact that everybody is going to go to heaven is absolute lie from the pit of hell. But then you go into the other side of things in some traditional churches and some mainline churches who said if youâre good you go to heaven. Well, Iâm good. Sure, Iâm not perfect, but Iâm good, so everybody sees themselves as good.
[04:50] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: According to whose standard, right?
[04:51] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF And they are contradicting the Bible, because the Bible said no one is good. I had an email came third-hand to me. A guy said, âI love that statement on page 47,â and I still remember it because he said, âYou said only bad people in heaven. The only good person in heaven is Jesus.â
And those are the redeemed people who recognize theyâre sinners and they cannot make it to heaven without Jesus. And that's what really I meant by it. But he said, âThat just gave me such confidence and comfort to know that Iâm redeemed by the blood of Christ and that's the only way Iâm going to heaven.â
And so Iâm so glad so many people are now sending me comments and saying how much this book has encouraged them in their walk with Christ. And the whole reasonânot only to refute all these falsehoodsâbut another reason for writing the book is I want to put people on the right track to realize that heaven is not, well, in the by and by when I die, but heaven is now. Heaven influences my thoughts, decisions, investments, and moneyâwhere I put my money. Is it in heaven or is the inflation going to eat it up? And so all these are very important decisions.
C. S. Lewis made a statement years ago that impacted me, has been for nearly fifty years since I read it. He said, you know, they talk about âOh, heâs so heavenly minded, heâs of no earthly good.â Iâve heard that so many times, even back in the sixties, seventies, and he said if you examine history, you find that only those who were heavenly minded were of any earthly good and he goes on to give examples.
I mean, I think Lord Shaftesbury, who impacted the culture in England probably like very few people said, âThere was not a day went by without me thinking of heaven.â And that's what caused him to be a reformist. Wilberforce fought for forty years to outlaw slavery. That's because of the thought of heaven.
And so anybody who says, âWell, heaven is just going to be distracting from what youâre doing now,â absolutely lies.
[07:15] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: No, itâs a driving force.
[07:16] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF Exactly. And I tell people all the time, unashamedly, I work, and I work harder at seventy-five than I did when I was forty-five or twenty-five, and simply because I live for one thing: hearing those words from Jesusâs lips, âWell done, good and faithful servant.â
[07:36] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: Thereâs also the misconception that it can be earned, you can do enough good works. Not necessarily about being a good person, but that the works are sort of counterbalancing you in this either sort of a karma sense or a works righteousness from a theological mindset.
[07:56] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF This is as old as my ancestors, the ancient Egyptians.
[08:00] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: It might be as old as the Garden.
[08:03] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF Probably. But I remember even growing up in Egypt and studying Egyptian pharaonic history and seeing some of the pictures that go back five thousand years, and the scale. And the scale was held by one of the gods.
[08:20] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: Like a weight scale.
[08:21] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF A weight scale, yeah. And you see hereâs your good deeds versus your bad deeds and youâve got to make the good deeds outweigh the bad deeds. But again, another lie from the pit of Satanâs hell. And we need to be absolutely certain that people understand that youâre not going to heaven based on anything youâve done, but itâs based on the grace of God that He has given you through Jesus Christ. Period.
Then the rewards in heaven are a whole different story. And that requires faithfulness if you want to be rewarded. There are five crowns in the Bible it talks about. Faithfulness, thereâs a crown for those who love His appearing. Thereâs all kinds of crowns. And those are not crowns we will just kind of put on our heads, but the crowns that we will take and lay at the feet of Jesus in our gratitude and thanksgiving for saving us.
[09:23] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: I think a lot of people like to imagine and picture what heaven looks like. Fill in some of the gaps for people who have maybe an incomplete view. Thereâs the picture of the sitting on a cloud playing a harp, wearing a robe, singing nonstop, just being bored.
[09:47] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF Right. Itâs medieval art.
[09:49] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: Exactly.
[09:51] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF The cherubic, fat kidsâ
[09:53] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: Yeah, weâll all be fat babies.
[09:54] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF And absolutely it is absolute falsehood. And Iâm not even big on these so-called heavenly tourism. Why do I listen to somebody who says they died and came back when IâPaul himself, when he was taken into heaven, he said, âIâm not allowed to even talk about it.â And when I have the real deal, I have Jesus, who tells me exactly what heaven is like.
[10:23] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: Thatâs all you need.
[10:24] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF And that's what I do in the book, Heaven Awaits. I stick with the Word of God. I see people go off the rails when they deviate, and so my focus is the Word of God. Iâm always having people on social media ask me, am I a Calvinist, and I Arminian, am I a dispensationalist, a postmillennialist, a premillennialist. Iâm none of these. Iâm a Bible-believing Christianâthat is, if itâs in the book of God Iâm going to believe it and preach it, but not try to be a follower of a man theory. I follow Jesus and I try to focus on that until the Lord takes me home. I will not deviate from it, no matter how much the pressure is put on me.
[11:14] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: All right, so letâs fill in some of the pictures for people. Letâs talk about our bodies. Thereâs a lot of concepts. We can even take a step future back, the idea of soul sleep or ⊠Fill in a little bit of those gaps for us.
[11:35] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF Sure. Well, this is again following some manâs theory, theological theory.
[11:43] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: Or misinterpretation of texts.
[11:46] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF But you know when you think about this, so much thing about the end times eschatology now is driven by a theory that was devised by a man in Plymouth, England, in 1825 by the name of John Nelson Darby. Most of them would not know this, but that's what they are. They are doing only following somebody, you know, chart. I follow the Bible. I stick with the Word of God. And there is no soul sleep in the Bible. The Bible talks about sleep of the believer. This is to indicate that itâs temporary. Jesus died, but we sleep. He took our death so that when we die, we only sleepâitâs a temporary thing because immediately our soul goes into heaven, according to 1 Corinthians chapter 15, and Paul says itâs not going to be floating souls in heaven. When the disciples of Jesus were in the Mount of Transfiguration, they didnât see the soul of Elijah and the soul of Moses; they saw them in a glorified body. In fact, Peter was so ecstatic, he wanted to hang in there for a long time.
[13:02] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: Letâs camp here for a bit.
[13:03] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF Yeah. And so these are glorified bodies in heaven. When we die, there is a body that's prepared for us in heaven. Itâs a body like Jesusâs body after the resurrection. And those are bodies that are totally righteous and holy, and therefore, we would be able to see the face of God when Moses couldnât see the face of God, but we will. Because we can never see the face of God in this body.
[13:34] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: Those bodies are indestructible and not ravaged by the effects of the Fall and sin.
[13:42] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF In fact, I think itâs the mercy of God that Moses did not see the face of God. He would be incinerated because in this sinful body we canât do it. But in the glorified body that is immediately prepared for us as soon as we enter heaven in a glorified body, we will be able to see and do and have no physical limitation, no pain, no suffering. And all of those promises in the Scripture are very clear.
[14:12] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: I donât remember reading it in the book, but I mean thereâs a sense that there will be gardening and working and building and weâll be active. Weâre not just sitting around.
[14:25] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF No. In fact, John said in Revelation âand the servants to serve Him.â And the Bible says that weâre going to reign and rule with Christ. Think of the universe, and our God is sitting on the rim of the universe right now, ruling and reigning, and weâre going to be participating in that. Itâs mindboggling. Sometimes I let my mind soar, but then I bring myself back to reality.
[14:48] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: Levitate for a moment.
[14:49] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF But yeah, itâs incredible when you think about it. We will be working. We will be serving, and weâll be doing great things for God. Weâre praising Him, of course, thanking Him. I just try to imagine that moment and I get so overwhelmed I want to go.
[15:05] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: Letâs talk a little bit about fears and perspectives, the things that can kind of creep in and the enemy can try and stealâ
[15:14] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF One of the things that also is prevalent, particularly among those so-called âprogressiveâ churches or liberal churches, Iâll never forget thirty-five years ago I was having a discussion with one of those so-called âliberalââministers in one of those churches and we were talking about heaven. And he said, âHow arrogant of you to think that youâre good enough to go to heaven.â
I said, âThat's exactly the falsehood that you believe, and that's you think a person is going to heaven based on his good, how good he is or she is.â But I only have the confidence because Jesus promised it. And that is really the most important thing that we need to emphasis. People donât think that we are just full of ourselves. We think weâre better than everybody else. Weâre going to heaven and youâre not. No, no, no, no, no. Iâm only assured of heaven because Jesus said so. He promised it. And God keeps His promises.
[16:16] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: Despite my sinful nature, despiteâ
[16:20] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF Yeah. In fact, itâs because of my acknowledging of my sinful nature and my need for salvation.
[16:25] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: Yeah. To your point, itâs not good people in heaven; itâs bad people in heaven who had the goodness of Christ because He covers us.
[16:31] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF Weâre born again.
[16:32] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: Yeah. And letâs move to that because you have a chapter on what does it mean to be born again and looking at Nicodemus. Talk to us a little bit aboutâBecause the question does remain, well then, who is in heaven? And I know we talked a little bit about that earlier, but letâs fill that picture out.
[16:49] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF Those who are born again. What does it mean to be born again? That's very important. That's the message I take to evangelistic events and when I preach. Itâs a very important message. Because to be born physically means youâre alive physically. And so to be born spiritually, it means you are spiritually alive. How come? Because every one of us, every human being who is ever born of a woman was born spiritually dead. I mean, physically alive, running around, but spiritually dead. Not comatose, dead, dead, dead. And so when the Holy Spirit opens our eyes and then we spiritually become awake and alive, that's born again. That's when you become born of the Spirit. Jesus said youâre going to be born of the Spirit of God because God has to do something on the inside of us to change us.
And I remember that day like yesterday when my whole life changed. My views of everything just changed overnight. Of course, itâs taken me sixty years of walking with Christ to grow in the knowledge and so forth, but that day was the beginning when I knew that it was totally transformed by the power of God and I became conscious of sin and confession of my sin and the closeness with God and the thirsting for righteousness and all of that.
[18:19] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: I remember as a boy when you would preach on heaven you would always talk about that this life was like a dress rehearsal. And itâs interesting because you were talking about you remember the moment when you became spiritually awake, but in the sixty-odd years, youâve grown in your sanctification, youâve grown in your knowledge and love for the Lord.
They talk about the theological concept of the already and the not yet. Like you said, thereâs a concept now in my mind and an understanding of the reality of heaven, and Iâm now living in preparation for that, and that's what the Christian life is preparing you for.
[19:00] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF Well, just as, you know, I sought to set an example for you and your siblings, I had others who set that example for me. My grandfather and my mother, they set the example of their being motivated by heaven, and therefore, they have done so much on the Earth because of their motivation of heaven. And so I am so grateful for their example, and I sought to also set an example, not just for you as my family and children, but also to congregations and people that I minister to. I told one of our pastoral care ministers one time, I said, you know, I have been privileged to teach for now fifty-two years since I was ordained to show people how to live for Christ. I donât know how the Lord is going to take me home, whether itâs going to be sudden or not, that's in His sovereign will. Either way He does it is fine by me. But if He privileged me to have a slow death that I pray that I will be able to teach people how to die in Christ. I taught them how to live in Christ, now how to die in Christ is very important.
[20:21] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: We canât have a conversation about heaven without having a conversation about hell. And thankfully, you do have a chapter in your book that delves into that. Letâs go there.
[20:40] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF Okay, well, as you know, I have never preached on hell without tears. Sometimes I mean broken down completely, not just shedding a tear or two. And the reason I do that and the reasonâactually itâs out of my control; if it was in my control, I wouldnât cryâbut the reason I do is because I know hell is real. Just as heaven is real, hell is real. Itâs a place, and there is going to be suffering, the Bible called that the lake of fire. The Bible talks about the worms that do not die, and the fire that would not die, and the gnashing of teeth. And the descriptions, a dark place where you feel falling all the time but there is no bottom. And it goes on and on and on.
I try to put those descriptions that Jesus gave us, notâ
[21:27] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: Not your own mind or some philosopher.
[21:28] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF âor fantasies of other people. Itâs what Jesus said. And the Bible makes it clear: hell was prepared for Satan and his angels. That is for whom hell was prepared. Unfortunately and sadly, there are so many who follow Satan who will end up with him in that lake of fire. And I have dedicated my life and whatever years Iâve got left, or days, it doesnât matter, I am dedicating them to warn people why should you perish? Why should you follow Satan, who takes you straight into that eternal life of torment?
You say, âHow do you know that?â Well, Jesus, again. He talked about Lazarus and the rich man. This is before His own resurrection, before His own opening paradise for the believers, where they were still in a waiting, holding pattern, as it were. But even then, before Christâs resurrection, they were in two different places: one is a torment and pain and suffering and burning of the tongue, and the other one is a joy in what they used to call the bosom of Abraham.
And so the conversation goes on, the man cries out from Hades to Abraham and he said, âPlease send Lazarus,â the guy whom he didnât even pay a minuteâs notice, he said, âSend him with a drop of water in his finger to just cool my tongue and give me relief.â
Had he said, âWe have a huge gap between us. We cannot cross to you and you cannot cross to us.â And that is what really makes me cry and weep, because once you cross over to the other side, there is no return. No matter how much you try and say, âI repent, I change now.â No, no, itâs too late. Itâs like the days of Noahâand Jesus said thatâitâs like the days of Noah. And he kept warning, 120 years heâs been preachingâitâs so difficult for me even to comprehend. And thereâs, âNo, no,â and made fun of him. And then in the end, of course, when the flood came, âOkay, weâll get in.â No, no, no. God shut the door.
God will shut the door one day, and so my longing, the longing of ⊠the longing of my heart (and I do this in the book, especially that last chapter) is Iâm pleading with people, come to Christ now. The opportunity is now. The moment is now. The hour is now. Donât put it off. And in the end, itâs like Ezekiel says. If you warn people and they get into trouble, youâre innocent. And that's what I want to be, a watchman whoâs innocent. But if I didnât warn them and I know danger was coming, then I have their blood on my hand, and I donât want that to happen. I donât want blood on my hand.
[24:29] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: Letâs just sort of, as we conclude, whoâs the book for and why should they buy it?
[24:37] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF Actually, this book is for everyone. Seldom do I say that because there are some books specifically. But this is for the believer, to encourage them and uplift them; for the non-believer to be forewarned and give them a chance to turn to Christ. So really, a believer will read it and be encouraged, but then give it to somebody who needs to know about the plan of salvation and hopefully then youâ
[25:00] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: Someone who has a false view of heaven.
[25:01] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF Exactly. And then you, who will give that book to somebody else, will be receiving the reward, even more than me who has written, because you have been an instrument of God of handing this warning to people and telling them to wake up while itâs time.
[25:21] JONATHAN YOUSSEF: Yeah, yeah. Well, the book is Heaven Awaits: Anticipate Your Future Hope, Your Eternal Home, Your Daily Reality by Dr. Michael Youssef. Dad, thank you so much for returning and gracing us once again with your presence on Candid Conversations.
[25:38] DR. MICHAEL YOUSSEF Thank you Dr. Jonathan Youssef. Thank you for your ministry. I appreciate it.
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In this profound episode, Jonathan is joined by esteemed theologian and author Michael Horton to discuss his latest book, "Recovering Our Sanity: How the Fear of God Conquers the Fears that Divide Us." In a world teetering on the brink of chaosâfrom unsettling politics to the lingering effects of the global pandemicâHorton's book offers not a typical self-help guide but a deep theological exploration of how a proper fear of God can liberate us from our myriad earthly fears.
Dr. Horton, Professor of Theology and Apologetics at Westminster Seminary, explains what it truly means to fear Godâboth biblically and theologicallyâand how this reverential fear can effectively drive out fears of the future, others, and even death itself.
Throughout the episode, Dr. Horton discusses the different types of fears that plague our societyâfrom cultural anxieties to personal strugglesâand how these stem from a lack of genuine fear of God. He emphasizes confronting our earthly fears with the hope found in Christ, rooted in the Gospel, and the shift from self-preservation to a Christ-focused life.
This episode is a humbling, thought-provoking, and hope-igniting journey that challenges listeners to replace false securities with the profound joy of knowing Christ, who commands us, "Do not be afraid." Join us as we explore how cultivating a healthy fear of God can recover our sanity in these turbulent times.
To ask Jonathan a question or connect with the Candid community, visit https://LTW.org/Candid
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TRANSCRIPT:
This transcript recounts Candid Conversations with Jonathan Youssef Episode 249: Recovering Our Sanity: How the Fear of God Conquers the Fears That Divide Us: Michael Horton.
[00:01] Jonathan: My very special guest is Mike Horton. He is a professor of systematic theology and apologetics at Westminster Seminary in California, and he is the author of many books, including The Christian Faith Ordinary and Core Christianity. He also hosts the White Horse Inn radio program. He lives with his wife, Lisa, and their four children in Escondido, California, and it looks like heâs on his back patio, having a conversation with me and being very gracious with his time. Mike Horton, thank you so much for taking the time to be on Candid Conversations.
[00:45] Michael: Thank you, Jonathan.
[00:50] Jonathan: I do thank you for your time. Now Mike, Iâve read your books, I have subscribed and I do recommend all of our listeners subscribe to the White Horse Inn. If you could just give us a quick, whirlwind tour of your story, we can talk a little bit about the podcast and some of your books as we progress through the interview.
[01:19] Michael: Well, thank you, Jonathan. Yeah, I was raised in a Christian home and came to understand the doctrines of grace partly through my older brother. Kind of had my own little, not little, my own Romans revolution and then started digging deeper into Church history and theology and biblical studies, and eventually went to Biola University, Westminster California, then to Oxford for doctoral studies and then post-doc at Yale and came back to teach at my alma mater and have been here for 25 years. Blessed to be able to have a hand, with my colleagues, in training pastors; pastors training pastors.
[02:17] Jonathan: Iâve been a recipient of many of the students of Westminster Seminary who taught me at Reformed Theological Seminary in Atlanta, and Iâve been really blessed by your work. Youâve got a very jovial, friendly, California vibe to you, but when you speak, youâre like a double-edged sword. Itâs so penetrating. And I think there could be a theological issue that Iâve been struggling with for months and youâll say it so concisely in a few sentences, and Iâll think, Where was that when I needed that?
[03:09] Michael: Youâre too kind. Thank you.
[03:11] Jonathan: Tell us a little bit about the White Horse Inn. It has been on for something like thirty years.
[03:17] Michael: Yeah, thirty-plus, almost thirty-five years now. It has been such a fun thing. Iâve learned so much from my colleagues on the program. I still learn from the new team. We produce a magazine, too, Modern Reformation Magazine, which is reallyâI encourage people to subscribe to that. Itâs a good digest of topical theology related to culture. The umbrella organization is called Sola Media, and one of the things that we do that Iâm so excited about being a part of is called Theo Global, where we host theological conversations (like we do on the White Horse Inn) between Baptist, Lutheran, Reformed, Anglican traditions and bring people together from a particular region. So weâve been doing it for eleven years in India and also almost that long in Nigeria or in Kenya, in Nairobi. And then also Cairo for the Middle East. We just did one in Thailand that Pakistanis and Indians were able to come to, because theyâre not able usually to see each other. And then we are, Lord willing, starting another one in Southeast Asia, probably Singapore.
So these have been so rich. Out of them are coming, a series of theology books from the global church to the global church. And so instead of having just regional theologies or theologies that pretend that theyâre not culturally contextual, we want to hear the voices of people from different locations testifying to the same Gospel, and that's just really been lots of fun.
[05:42] Jonathan: Well, having ministered near that area of the world in Australia, youâre right, there can be a disconnect between the cultures. We read each otherâs books and that sort of thing, and those are Western cultures, but I think we miss out on hearing about what is happening in Southeast Asia, Because they do face similar obstacles but also some quite different. As one of the points of your book is, there is still the one true God and the one Gospel that reaches across those cultures and reaches across so many of those things that we would consider barriers. And I think that's wonderful. I pray the Lord would bless that.
[06:30] Michael: Thank you. One of the things I find, Jonathan, is there is a sweet unity around the Gospel that binds us when I go to these other places. Wherever I am in the world, I donât feel like Iâm a stranger because Iâm with my brothers and sisters. I wish I felt the same way in America. Itâs very different here.
[06:51] Jonathan: Yeah, I was going to say itâs interesting that what youâre doing is youâre unifying and uniting across denominations, across cultural things, and yet that's working almost in the opposite direction of where we see things here, which is thereâs division within denominations; thereâs division within small regions. Youâre undoing what is happening on a bigger scale in some of the Western parts. Itâs exciting to hear that's not happening everywhere, that thereâs actually some unification taking place and that's encouraging. And I know thatâs going to be an aspect of what we talk about in our conversation about one of your new books.
Now, I know that you had some health issues with your heart a couple of years ago. Maybe for some of our audience who didnât know or having heard any updates, are you healthy?
[07:54] Michael: Thanks for asking. Yes, what it was was a valve that just exploded in my heart, so it was an emergency open-heart surgery. But they saidâthey know my arteries and my heart better than anybody, they said, youâll die of something, but it wonât be of heart disease. You have a good heart; you have good arteries; this was just a fluke.
[08:24] Jonathan: Unbelievable.
[08:25] Michael: Soâyeah. Iâm fully recovered. They said I could go bungee jumping again if I want to.
[08:32] Jonathan: Again. Iâm glad that you were already doing thatâI picked up your book a while ago and Iâve been wanting to have you on the podcast ever since reading it. And the book is called Recovering Our Sanity: How the Fear of God Conquers the Fears that Divide Us. And my goodness, what a perfect title for everything we see. Give us a little bit of the reason for writing and the timing of the book.
[09:18] Michael: Well, it had been percolating for years now, actually. I wrote a book many years ago called Beyond Culture Wars: Is America a Mission Field or a Battlefield? And this is in a similar vein, but really in light of the fears that really divide us today. And the center used to be the Bible, the Gospel, getting the Gospel right and getting the Gospel out. We have our doctrinal differences across the evangelical mainstream, but basically we had different political views and those political views didnât divide between brothers and sisters and churches.
And what Iâve seen lately has just been like a food fight in a cafeteria, and political issues and social issues raised to the level of the Trinity. And itâs like, okay, well, we can argue about that over coffee, but we donât bring it into the church. That used to be kind of how people thought about things. These things are important, but theyâre not as important as our unity in Christ. But I hear people attacking pastors, pastors attacking their flock, back and forth over these issues. And I think people donât get this heated over the doctrine of election or justification or the Trinity. Does it suggest that these issues are deeper in our hearts than the truth of Christianity, so what really binds us?
And I looked at it and I said what really binds us is salvation, what we think weâre saved from. If we think weâre saved from the people over there who are threatening our values, or the people over there who are different from us ethnically, or the people over there who have a different view of economics and social justice? What are we really afraid of? What are our ultimate fears? And I argue that we have all these secondary fears. The real fear deep down, the mother of all fears, is the fear of death. And none of the solutions that can be offered by FOX or CNN, there is no solution to that. But we have it. Why isnât that on our dashboard as central, getting it right and getting it out?
[13:01] Jonathan: In the book you cast a broad net in kind of what youâve just said up here, picking out a few of the issues that youâre seeing so much division over. But then you lay out some of the theological framework to reorientate your reader to where fear should rightly be placed. And itâs away from the fear of one another and having a right fear of God.
And you use the word sublime in the book, which I found really helpful as an aspect of God. I wonder if you could give us a little bit of explanation and walk that out for us.
[13:52] Michael: Sure. I love that word. Sublime is really, I think, what weâre talking about when we talk about the fear of God. Some people will say, âWell, itâs not really fear. Itâs reverence, awe.â Fear is a big part of it, but itâs a kind of fear that attracts. Think of what happens if youâve ever stood at the mouth of a volcano, looking over it, watching the lava flow. Or I live in Southern California, so we have fires, and thereâs a kind of weird attraction to going to the fire and seeing it. Or youâre out on the ocean and youâre terrified. A squall comes up youâre afraid, but youâre also kind of your heart is racing not just because youâre afraid, but also because youâre kind of in awe of what's happening. In awe of the waves.
God, you know whenever an angel shows up in the Bible, an emissary of God, what's the first thing? You know the number-one commandment throughout Scripture? The number-one command is âBe not afraid.â Because when even the mailman of God shows up, people are terrified.
[15:31] Jonathan: Yeah, or Mosesâs face is a little too bright.
[15:36] Michael: Yeah. Hey, put a napkin over that or something⊠That's what, really, is the basis for all sublime events, encounters that we have is really the fear of God. And so itâs ⊠A Jewish writer, John Levinson, puts it well. He says, âIn the Hebrew Scriptures God beckons with one hand and repels with the other.â
So thereâs a kind of donât get too close. Even Jesus in His Resurrection, âDonât touch me. Iâm different.â God is different from us. And that sense of awe, of majesty, of even terror. Think of the disciples in the boat with Jesus. They were afraid of the storm, and then Jesus calmed the storm and they were afraid of Jesus. Who is this who has control over the winds and the waves? They were terrified. And that's the kind of Who is this? What am I dealing with here? The kind of shock and awe, the surprise is something that is missing, I think, from a lot of our experience as Christians today.
[17:11] Jonathan: Well, and I know in the book weâve seen a lot of the statistical evidence that comes in support of what youâve just said, which shows that evangelical Christians really donât know what they believe. They have a complete misunderstanding of God, of the nature of Christ, of their roles.
[17:51] Michael: If the fear of God is not the beginning of our wisdom, then something else will be. Weâll fear something else. We will fear other people who are different from us and weâll fear cancer, weâll fear losing our job, weâll fear environmental collapse and catastrophe, weâll fear these other people taking over. Itâs not that those ⊠that there arenât legitimate concerns of a political and social and cultural nature. But we have a disordered fear. And if we have disordered fears, we have disordered loves.
God is not only the source of our greatest fear, legitimate fear; Heâs also the only one who conquers our fears and says, âWelcome home, prodigal. Welcome home, hereâs the feast.â
[19:22] Jonathan: And deals with our, as you refer to it, the mother of all fears.
[19:27] Michael: Death. Weâre dying. In California, people arenât allowed to die; they pass away; and we put these cemeteries out, far away from view, or we turn them into parks and things. And it used to be every time you walked into a church there would be headstones, and it reminded you as you walked in why youâre going in there. The Gospel is for dying people, and weâre all on that road. And so the question is, How do we face death? ⊠How is that ultimate anxiety relieved? We mourn, but not as those who have no hope. So what does that mean for my daily life now? I could be twelve years old and Iâm dying. I could be eighty and Iâm dying. So what ⊠Letâs talk about that. Letâs talk about the dying and the resurrection of the dead and being attached to Jesus so that what He is in His humanity right now, glorified, we will be. Letâs talk about that. That's a lot better than anything on CNN or FOX.
[21:00] Jonathan: I love it. I think in the book you tell the story of when you went to a debate with, I might be messing this up, but I think it was with an atheist and you sort of said, âYep. Great. Can I talk about Jesus nowâ and kind of put him off, and he sort of like, âI wasnât prepared to debate that.â
[21:22] Michael: Yeah. This was years ago. Bill Nye the Science Nye.
[21:24] Jonathan: Bill Nigh, that's right.
[21:25] Michael: He was talking about how religion is based on false fears and so they develop myths and so forth.
[21:37] Jonathan: And you were like, âWell, that's true.â
[21:39] Michael: Yeah. I donât disagree; that's a pretty fair analysis of religions. I guess youâd have to take one by one and analyze it, but as a generalization, now can I talk about Jesus and His Resurrection? Letâs keep getting back to the main business here.
[21:59] Jonathan: The main issue. Yeah. In the book you draw this distinction between naturalistic and hyper supernatural, but then you sort of carve out this third option of ordinary. Can we talk a little bit about that and how we see that playing out in our world today, particularly in the Church?
[22:23] Michael: Sure. Often what you see today is a naturalism underwriting the progressive agenda and John Lennonâs âImagine.â On the right, you tend to have a hyper supernaturalism wedded to a conservative agenda. And so what do I mean by that? Well, a naturalistic worldview says, of course, God isnât involved. If God exists, then Heâs not involved in this world. He didnât create it, itâs self-evolving and so forth.
A hyper-supernatural worldview says that God works miraculous. You know, to say that God did it means itâs a miracle.
[23:34] Jonathan: Yeah.
[23:35] Michael: Whereas in the Bible God does all sorts of things. Mostly, He doesnât perform miracles. What about all the times when we cut our finger and it heals after a week? What about that? What about a child [who] has a brain bleed in NICU and it resolves in 24 hours. How about those? Those arenât miracles. People say, âthe miracle of childbirth.â Thereâs no miracle of childbirth; itâs just a spectacular example of Godâs providence. Thatâs part of our problem is weâre looking for God only in the spectacular, only in the extraordinary, only in places where we can point to and say, âOh, God did that.â
So we canât explain how somebody recovered from cancer; we say, âWell, God did it, not the doctors.â
[24:46] Jonathan: Right.
[24:47] Michael: Well, how about God did it and the doctors did it. God did it through the doctors.
[24:52] Jonathan: How much control does God have here?
[24:55] Michael: Right. He has control of everything. Itâs not just supernatural events; itâs not just miracles. Godâs in control of every second, every breath. Every breath that you and I take is under His dominion.
[25:11] Jonathan: That's right. He holds all things together. You know, I hear that phrase a lot, âThat was a God thing. That was a God thing,â and I always have to stop and say to them, âEverything is a God thing.â I mean, conversations. The fact that your brain works. The ability to read. The ability to understand and reason. Itâs like I hate when you get that narrow scope, as youâre saying. Weâve lost the sublime. Weâve lost an understanding of how muchâyou know, it's almost a deistic view that, you know, God sort ofâ
[25:42] Michael: Yes!
[25:43] Jonathan: Heâs put some things in place and then He occasionally steps in andâ
[25:47] Michael: That's why I argue that actually naturalism and hyper supernaturalism unintentionally conspire with each other against Christianityâ
[25:57] Jonathan: Right.
[25:58] Michael: âyou know because, you know, we get to the place where we donât see God in our ordinary, everyday existence, but only in these punctuated events, and weâve got to raise things. I think we do a lot of pretending. We pretend that things that have an ordinary explanation are miracles because we have to have God in our life. These large swaths of our lives where there are no miracles are upheld by Godâs marvelous providence.
[26:40] Jonathan: Right. Amen to that. In the book, one of the fears you mentioned is fear of losing your job. And I think in the book you helpfully distinguish between calling and vocation or job and helping us understand and distinguish the two things. I wonder if we can talk a little bit of bringing clarity to that, because weâre longing for something to put our identity in. Is it a football club? Is it a university? Weâre currently, I donât know when this will air, but weâre in the middle of March Madness. Who did you pick? What's your university? What's your background?
And vocation is very much one of those things we can put our identity in, and yet I think you talk about the ultimate and the penultimate between calling and vocation. I wonder if you could bring some clarity to that, and then weâll turn to some of the practical outworkings of the division we see after that.
[27:53] Michael: Yeah. Well, one of the things I try to maintain throughout the book is, look, the things Iâm talking about are not unimportant. They are legitimate fears. There is a legitimate anxiety. The question is, where do we go with that? But yes, letâs affirm it. Itâs real, itâs a deal, but penultimate not ultimate.
For example, if I am in a circle of people Iâve never met before, weâre having breakfast, and I ask them, âTell me about yourself,â very ordinarily theyâll say, âWell, Iâm a dentist. Iâm a âŠâ
Now okay, thereâs an example. That is part of our identity. Vocation is a gift of God; itâs a calling. So to say, you know, we shouldnât place our identity in our vocations, well, not ultimately. That's the problem. Itâs a part of our identity, just like being a father is part of my identity. That's a calling. And we have to realize, as Luther said, we have many callings, many vocations during our life. Weâre parents, weâre spouses, weâre children, we are extended family members, weâre dentists, and cleaning movie theaters. We have all kinds of callings/vocations. Sometimes we have a vocation to suffer, to carry a cross. Sometimes we have a vocation to be a friend. We have lots of vocations, and keeping them in balance is very important.
Keeping them penultimate, not ultimate, is my point. My ultimate identity is chosen, redeemed, justified, being sanctified, will be glorified, in union with Christ. That's my identity and that's really who I am. Paul talks about himself as if heâs almost collapsed into Jesus. His identity is so bound up with Christ that he can even say his suffering is something he glories in because it shares in Christâs suffering. That's my identity; that's where I really find who I am. The other stuff is not just stuff I do, that turns it back into a job. It is part of my identity, but itâs penultimate, not ultimate.
[30:57] Jonathan: Well, as we said at the beginning, we see division in so many different places. Weâre, of course, as you know, weâre in another election year, and thatâfear is going to be used as a ⊠itâs going to be weaponized this year, particularly this year, in America. And we have an international audience, so I want to be sensitive, but I know that internationally also they see a lot of American news as well. I think you talk about how, in the book, two sides to the fear coin. You mention both in the book. One side, fear is easily exploited as a motivator. On the other, fear is a weak motivator in the long term. Why is that? Letâs kind of unpack that a little bit.
[32:07] Michael: Yeah. I use the analogy of deer who are ⊠there is this fight or flight that God gave us and the animals as well. Itâs purely instinctual, instinctive. You donât ⊠Whether youâre a deer or a human being, you donât really think about, you donât contemplate, you donât calculate, you donât explore what ⊠You have a car coming towards you, you flee. You get out of its way if you can. But what happens isâ
That's adrenaline. That adrenaline rush is just a marvelous gift of Godâs providence. The problem is what would happen is deer had this disease of constantly being afraid, every crack of brush of another deer drove them wild running in fear? That's what I see us doing now, and what happens is it works in the short term. If youâre going to cynically use fear to get a herd of people to do what you want them to do, that might work in the short term, but long term, people canât live like that. Long term, people actually become cynical. They wonât participate at all. Theyâll just turn it off because âIâve had this scare a thousand times and Iâm not going to have it anymore. Iâm tired of it.â It just runs out.
And that's what I think a lot of people are feeling right now with American politics. So Iâm not an analyst of American politics by any stretch of the imagination; Iâm simply looking at it on the pastoral side. What is driving us to be like the deer in the headlights every five minutes? And itâs exhausting us.
[34:33] Jonathan: Yeah.
[34:34] Michael: Each side whipping up the other side against each other. If I donât win this election, dot, dot, dot. If the other person wins the election, dot, dot, dot. Itâs apocalypse not. I especially find offensive any use of God or the Bible or Christ for that fear. Anyone who does that, particularly cynical leaders who donât even go to church, arenât professing Christians really, but they use the lingo to gain the nomination of particular groups. When Christians participate in that, they carry crosses to the U.S. Capitol to storm it and talk about hanging the vice president, and theyâre carrying crosses with Bible verses, this is the sort of thing that must just aggravate our Lord and Savior whose name is taken in vain.
And yeah, is that a critique especially of evangelical political conservatives? Yes, it is. Because they are my brothers and sisters closest to me. The secularists arenât really invoking the name of Jesus and Bible verses and carrying crosses. Iâm more worried about evangelicals distorting the gospel than I am about who wins this next election.
[36:54] Jonathan: What is that doing to your testimony to those people who donât know the Lord? What message is it giving them?
[37:10] Michael: That Christianity is about power.
[37:11] Jonathan: Right, exactly.
[37:12] Michael: Itâs not about a cross with God who has all power becoming flesh being spat upon and then being crucified upon a cross, bleeding for our sins. Itâs about basically choosing Caesar over Jesus, making Pilate our hero rather than Jesus.
[37:45] Jonathan: I found that chapter, I canât remember if itâs the Christian nationalism chapter or the one before, but it was really helpful the way that you walked out American history in a way that probably a lot of the readers might say, âI donât know if I understood that.â Or âI donât know if I fully understood Thomas Jefferson and his letter to the Danbury Baptist Church in Connecticut.â Understanding separation of church and state, understanding like how we got to where we are and the creating of even thinking between the British ⊠French revolution and those different paths that were laid out before us. And even just understanding our own history and how we got to where we are, I think a lot of it is just cast as Christian nation. And I found it helpful the way you distinguish that.
Because I hear this a lot in the church in terms of America being the new Israel, are there blessings that have come with certain things? Sure, fine. Our Constitution is well put together. I love the history of Witherspoon, the Scottish Presbyterian, and you can see some of that in the language that comes out through the Constitution. Again, I think itâs helpful to have your historical understanding rather than this reinterpretation that we have now that itâs, as you said, itâs this feeling like someoneâs come in and taken this from us. And now, to use the title of your other book, now weâre at war, right? Itâs not a mission field, itâs a battlefield. Weâre fighting for the honor of our country. And all that's done is create us and them division and a lack of clarity and a lack of what weâre called to in a mission sense as Christians. Where was I going with that? Who knows? Anyway, I found it helpful.
[40:10] Michael: You said it better. Preach it, brother.
[40:16] Jonathan: Just random thoughts. Just reading your books and regurgitating it to the people. So later on in the book you sort of walk us through the areas where division has come in. So we have Christian nationalism has certainly seeped into churches. Then you have some really helpful, short chapters with issues with LGBTQ+ community, cancel culture, racism. Letâs just kind of walk through some of these and help Christians who are listening to this who are saying, I thought this was the right way to handle that situation but youâre saying something else. Letâs kind of walk through maybe even just one or two of those. Again, you had a really great illustration under your LGBTQ+ chapter of the young man whose family had sent him to you and you were pastoring him and what happened with all that. If you could tell us a little bit about that, just to help kind of encapsulate what weâre talking about here.
[41:35] Michael: Sure, this brother struggling with homosexuality, his dad was on the board of a prominent evangelical organization, and his pastor had told him that we basically donât want your influence in the church, so he was considering leaving the faith. But then he read Putting Amazing Back Into Grace, a book I wrote a long time ago, and came out to work at our organization as just a pretext for just hanging out and shepherding this guy. He became a part of our church and a lot of people looked after him and we got a lot back from him.
He went back home, and his pastor said that all this reformed teaching he was getting was heresy and so forth, and no, youâve lost your salvation. Romans says that He gave them over to a depraved mind. So he committed suicide and âŠ
So what is it? Why do you do stuff like that? Well, you do it out of bad theology, to be sure, but also out of fear. There are a lot of churches that just donât want to deal with it. They donât want to have this problem. They donât want to say that they have people in their congregation who are really, really suffering. If youâre a secularist, you donât suffer from homosexuality. You donât suffer with gender dysphoria. Only Christians do. And only Christians suffer with greed and envy and malice and other sins that are listed in these same sin lists in the New Testament. You donât lose your salvation over those.
The key is repentance, right? Weâre called to a life of repentance. Whatever our tendencies are towards particular sins, weâre all corrupt in heart. Weâre sinners and weâre sinned against and we are in a sin-cursed world. And so where do we go with that fear? And then once that fear is solved objectively in Christ, having been justified through faith, we have peace with God. That's an objective fact. With that now as an objective fact, how do I respond to this brother or sister whoâs justified just as I am, and who is being sanctified just as I am, but has propensity toward a particular sin that I think is particularly serious, particularly great? How do I love this person? How do I respond to this person?
John Calvin said a pastor needs to learn how to have two voices: one for the sheep and one for the wolves. And what Iâve seen in some very close cases to my own experience, what Iâve seen sometimes is pastors confusing the sheep for wolves and treating them as apostates or as people who, you know, if you really were a Christian, you wouldnât be suffering with that. Well, theyâre not saying, âI have a right to this sin.â Theyâre not saying that itâs okay. That's why theyâre struggling with itâand theyâre struggling with it in your church.
So one of the surveys, actually a couple of the surveys concluded that about 80 percent of people in the LGBTQ+ community were raised in conservative Roman Catholic or Protestant churches.
[46:39] Jonathan: Give that statistic again because I think we need to hear it again.
[46:42] Michael: I donât know exact, itâs in the 80s, 80 percent.
[46:46] Jonathan: Over 80 percent.
[46:49] Michael: Right. And what's even more striking is the same percentage said that they would come back to church, even if they didnât change their rules, but listened to them and cared for them. That's what I found amazing. I was glad that they asked ⊠they added in that survey even if they didnât change their beliefs but they were kind and they listened and they cared for me.
So if Iâm fearful, here again the adrenaline, the deer in the headlights, that's a gift God gave us for fleeing something that is imminently threatening. This is not imminently threatening. If I come to understand that, then Iâm not a deer in the headlights; instead, my brother or sister, my friend, parent, Iâm someone who is looking out for the best of this person and now I can actually get ahold of myself and think and make judgments and articulate things. And ask questions and get information. That's a big part of it. Itâs not all spiritual. People are suffering from mental health disorders, and that's physical, that's brain chemistry. All kinds of things.
People are suffering from sins that have been committed against them in the past. A lot of this is very complicated, and itâs not all that personâs direct fault. Again, weâre all sinners, sinned against, and live in a sin-cursed world. And all those factors play into what we have to consider when weâre not the deer in the headlights but can sit down with people over a long time, be willing to walk with them over a long time, be willing to read up on things, ask them questions, weâre that interested in them and understanding what theyâre going through, understanding their pain. Itâs like if they have cancer weâd be at their house with casseroles, but if they have these things, you know ⊠So letâs ⊠fear of the Lord drives out the fears of everyone and everything else. This is the beginning of wisdom.
[48:52] Jonathan: Exactly. Well, I think we could probably have this conversation for probably another four more hours, which we might do just because weâre having so many technical difficulties. You know, I canât recommend this book enough. Mike Horton, Recovering Our Sanity: How the Fear of God Conquers the Fears that Divide Us. I told my team I want to re-air this as we get closer to November so that we can all be reminded once again of what weâre called to. Mike, what are you working on at the moment?
[50:35] Michael: Iâve been kind of obsessive compulsive about a project, three volumes with Eerdmans. First volume is coming out in May, titled Shaman and Sage. This is a very different project. Itâs the history of spiritual not religious. Where does this come from? You have this divine self within trying to break out of all constraints. And so I trace it all the way back to ancient Greece and to the Renaissance. And then the second volume, Renaissance to the scientific revolution. And then the third volume is covering Romanticism to the present.
[51:31] Jonathan: Oprah.
[51:32] Michael: Exactly.
[51:35] Jonathan: Thatâs going to be a massive help for believers, because that's the one we see a lot in those statistics. Yeah, I hear that from quite a few people, spiritual but not religious, or whatever the phrase is. But well, Mike Horton, itâs been such a privilege. Iâm so grateful for your time and coming on to Candid Conversations and sharing with us.
[52:10] Michael: Jonathan, thank you so much. Itâs been a pleasure.
[52:14] Jonathan: Thank you, brother.
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Youâre sitting across from your teenager at the kitchen table. Now that you finally have their undivided attention, you want to talk about an important issue they are facing. Unfortunately, things get tense quickly. Their eyes roll, you get frustrated, and soon they are looking for an escape from this conversation. You sit dumbfounded thinking, "How do I raise my teen to love Christ in a world that is doing everything possible to pull them away?"
In this episode of Candid Conversations, host Jonathan welcomes back Melissa Kruger, Vice President of Discipleship Programming at the Gospel Coalition. Melissa is also an accomplished author, having written multiple books, including âGrowing Together,â âWalking with God in the Season of Motherhood,â and the popular childrenâs book âWherever You Go, I Want You to Know.â
During this conversation, Jonathan and Melissa discuss her latest book, âParenting with Hope: Raising Teens for Christ in the Secular Age.â The book provides practical guidance and biblical insights for parents navigating the challenges of raising teenagers in todayâs culture. Melissa shares her personal journey and the inspiration behind writing this important resource.
Listen to this Candid Conversation as Melissa Kruger sheds light on parenting teens with hope, faith, and wisdom. Whether youâre a parent, grandparent, or youth leader, this episode offers valuable insights for nurturing the next generation.
To ask Jonathan a question or connect with the Candid community, visit https://LTW.org/Candid
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TRANSCRIPT:
This transcript recounts Candid Conversations with Jonathan Youssef Episode 248: Parenting with Hope: Raising Teens for Christ in the Secular Age: Melissa Kruger.
[00:06] Jonathan: Well, today I have a repeat guest. It is Melissa Kruger. She is the vice president of discipleship programming at the Gospel Coalition. She is the author of multiple books, including Growing Together; Walking with God in the Season of Motherhood; and the popular childrenâs book, Wherever You Go, I Want You to Know, which we have gotten for our son, and then weâve had his teachers write inscriptions each year, whoever his teacher is. And I think you have a special book that allows for that.
Her husband Mike, who has also been on the podcast, is the president of Reformed Theological Seminary. And they and their three children are in Charlotte, North Carolina. Melissa, thank you so much for coming back onto Candid Conversations.
[00:52] Melissa: Great! Thanks for having me back.
[00:54] Jonathan: Okay, youâve got a new book out called Parenting with Hope: Raising Teens for Christ in the Secular Age. Now, I imagine this book is flying off the shelves, and youâve probably shattered sales records.
[01:12] Melissa: I donât think so, right?
[01:14] Jonathan: It should. I think this is something the church hears a lot about and itâs always so helpful to have books that are written from a helpful, biblical perspective and giving people the foundations and the equipping and the reminders that we can often forget.
So tell us a little bit about the journey on Parenting With Hope. What got the start of the book?
[01:48] Melissa: I was approached by a publisher who had read my book, Walking with God in the Season of Motherhood, and they said, âWeâd really like you to take some of these principles and apply it to parenting teens. And we want it trade book form, Walking with God in the Season of Motherhood, is a Bible study for women, I wrote that one for a friend, for her baby shower. It wasnât intended for publishing; I was writing it for her.
So this one really they came with the question and I was very unsure of myself. Iâve raised three teenagers, and so it was kind of that, ooh, and I was just out of the season. But what I realized when I did Walking with God in the Season of Motherhood, I couldnât write that book now, I think, because Iâm not in that moment. The teen years are very fresh to me. I saw tons. I still have one teenager, sheâs 17. I have a 17-year-old, a 20-year-old, and a 23-year-old and so still itâs fresh to me.
But I also realized no oneâs sixty who can write about what they did about cell phones because they didnât exist. They canât talk about what did they do with social media. They canât talk about some of these sports and activities because it was totally different twenty years ago. And so I realized, okay, itâs probably a good thing to have someone fresh on the season.
And I also realized, the second thing, I was a high school math teacher in I always say my other life, and so I had taken a lot of teen development classes. And I realized this really did help me in the parenting of teens, like thereâs a lot of common grace insights by people who have studied just what works and what doesnât, and Iâve realized I had those things in my back pocket. And we do that a lot with young children, we read all the developmental milestones, we know what your 2-year-old should be doing, what your 3-year-old should be doing. Whenâs the last time you read a developmental milestone about your 9-year-old or your 10-year-old? And we stop being learners of what kids are able to do and what they should be doing and so I wanted to put some of that in the book as well.
[04:15] Jonathan: Okay, so I love how you break down the book. So itâs broken down into three parts. You give the basics, which you call âThe Foundations of a Christian Homeâ; The Battle: Fighting for the Better Portionâ; which weâll get into that. And then âThe Blessing: Cultivating a Home Where Teens Thrive.â Talks us through a little bit of the Part 1.
[04:44] Melissa: I might come off as, well, we all know this, right?
[04:48] Jonathan: Right. If youâre in the church, you should know and understand that. Butâ
[04:51] Melissa: Exactly. Exactly. And in a lot of ways this is being a Christian 101. But I remind parents of it because I think sometimes we get so bogged down with all the things weâre not doing as parents that I want to remind them the most important thing you do as a human is be in Godâs Word, be in prayer, and be in the church. Doing that is going to already set you ahead of parents all around the world. I mean, that is such a gift to your child to be a parent who is regularly in-taking from the Bible.
Why? Because the Bible is not just another book on the shelf; itâs actually divine wisdom. We have the ability to tap into divine wisdom. And then secondly we have not just divine wisdom, we have divine help because we can call on God to do what we cannot do, we cannot save our child, we cannot change our child. We cannot make them do really much of anything, but God can work in ways that we canât understand.
And then the community of the church is just something that, I mean, I think weâre seeing with the epidemic of teen loneliness and anxiety and isolation, all these things. The church is this institution that, guess what, it answers that. Itâs this welcoming place where you have 80-year-olds and you have 8-year-olds. And so I donât think we can talk about parenting without talking about what's the foundation of our hope. Itâs actually that Godâs Word is true, and living in light of Godâs Word is hopeful, and weâre not left alone on the journey. So that's the Battle. The battle really talks about our battles. And again, this is a book about being the parent of a teen. Itâs not a book about how to make your teen perfect. If that book exists, that's theâ
[06:54] Jonathan: If it does, you should burn it.
[06:56] Melissa: Yeah, that's the Holy Spiritâs job is to change us and make us different. And so the second part is the battle, I think we often think is sex, drugs, rock and roll or some other things weâre trying to prevent our teen from. I would say itâs actually good things robbing us of the best things. The battle is with our own idolatry. As parents, we are all coming into this game with hopes and dreams for our kids, and sometimes those dreams turn idolatrous. I focus on scholarship and achievement, on sports and activities, and then on social acceptance. I think those are the cultural idols we have in the West that are pressing upon us as parents, and we have to battle about all of those.
[07:38] Jonathan: And that's what I love about the book is that itâs not prescriptions, right? When people are struggling with their kids, what do they want? Just tell me what to do so that this will stop or so I can take this away, right? And I think the way that your book is written is that itâs not about if you do A, B will happen. Now, thereâs a little bit of element of that because you just mentioned the foundations earlier, which is, well, you really need to be doing these practices, but you donât necessarily think, oh, being in church and being in the Word and being in prayer, you donât necessarily feel the direct correlation to your parenting, but it is there.
I have friends who have raised their kids the exact same way and one rebels and the other one is a blessing to their family. And then itâs like, what did we do wrong? Your husband was speaking yesterday about the paradox of God is sovereign over all things, and yet weâre still called to be good parents. And so thereâs that. We donât fully understand the mystery of that, but we know what weâre called to, and so we have to walk it out.
[09:14] Melissa: That's right. As a parent, I am called to fight my idolatry. Iâm actually not called to control my child. And so often what you see if we go into control mode when weâre fearful, and the Bible says trust and obey. And I would say obey and trust. And so you follow Godâs call and then you trust. You trust that youâre doing everything you can to walk in a manner worthy of the gospel in front of the Lord and in front of your kids, and then you have to trust.
And you will only have the ability to trust if youâre building on the foundation. So this is where it always goes back to that foundation. And I'm talking about how to be a human, honestly. I mean, if you want to know how to succeed in your place of work, oh, you need the Word, you need prayer, you need the church. If you want to know how to be single in the life of the church, you need the Word, you need prayer, you need the church. But I think I say it again and again because itâs Psalm 1. Yeah, I mean, âBlessed is the man who doesnât like in ⊠who doesnât sit âŠâ all that stuff. Oh, what does he do? âHis delight is in the law of the Lord, and on it he meditates day and night. He is like a tree planted by a stream. Whatever he does prospers.â This is wisdom for life. And so I definitely think we have to start there, and then we have to be battling our own idols.
And then the last section on the blessing is how do we create homes of acceptance, availability, and affection? Those words have to be in our world today. Acceptance does not mean an acceptance of sin, but it means an acceptance of who they are. And what I mean by that is we see a lot of curated children. And what I mean by that is parents trying to make the perfect child who plays the sport, who plays the instrument, who has an amazing GPA, who gets into the Ivy Leagues and all this stuff because that's a representation of me is what weâre really trying to do.
[11:12] Jonathan: Right. Itâs a reflection, yeah.
[11:13] Melissa: So rather than saying, you know, my kidâs not that great at school, but I can teach hard work. Even if theyâre not going to be a lawyer or a doctor, that's okay. And so that's what I mean by acceptance, accepting who the Lord is creating them to be and letting that glorify Him, whatever it might be.
[11:33] Jonathan: Yeah, thereâs a lot of this element of caught versus taught, right? So especially as you think about the idolatry and what you prioritize in your life, your kids are by default looking at you, watching you. Youâre one of the greatest sources of influence on them, and so they are going to model themselves after what mom and dad prioritize. And the funny thing is that when parents look down the track they say, âWhy are they like this?â And itâs like, sometimes itâs a little bit of look in the mirror. You know, what were they catching, even if you were teaching in a different trajectory and direction.
Okay, so acceptance. What about availability?
[12:17] Melissa: Yeah. I talk about this. I say you want to be available but you want to understand your limitations. Look, I mean, parents cannot be at everything. And I actually believe itâs helpful for our kids to know that they are not the center of our universe. They do not have the gravitational weight to bear us, I like to say. Like the Earth cannot support the Sun revolving around it, it was never intended to, we are not created to revolve around our children. We are created to revolve around God, and we are helping them do the same.
And kids who grow up in a home where the parent is rooted and grounded in the Lord, that takes an amazing burden off of them. Youâve heard the phrase âYouâre only as happy as your least happy child.â I think that is like poor least-happy child. No. My contentment and joy, where are they supposed to come from? Theyâre supposed to be rooted in the Lord. Why are we supposed to be content with what we have? Because He has said, âNever will I leave or forsake you.â That's where our contentment rests. And we have to be people fighting for that as parents, to free our kids up from our own maybe tendency to put our hopes and dreams in them.
[13:36] Jonathan: And then affection. A home of warmth.
[13:39] Melissa: I read an article somewhere recently. I canât remember where it was; it was in the secular paper, and they said, really what you do as a parent doesnât matter, but if you love them, that makes a difference. And I was kind of like, huh. That's really interesting because I do think thereâs a lot to that. I think, you know, itâs a little bit empty because I think loveâ
[14:03] Jonathan: Well, oneâs usually reflected in the other, right?
[14:05] Melissa: Yeah. Exactly. And you need truth to guide what love is, so thereâs that. But I did once hearâthis was on the Oprah Winfrey Show a million years ago when that show was still onâshe was interviewing I believe it was Toni Morrisson. And Toni Morrisson said one thing she had learned when a child walks into the room, she said, light up when that child walks in the room. And she said what kids tend to get when you walk into the room is your critical gaze. They tend to get, huh, your shirtâs not tucked in. Hey, make sure youâre getting ready for this.
And this gets even worse in the teen years, because look, theyâre cute when theyâre walking in at two, so you might light up just because theyâre so cute.
[14:50] Jonathan: Itâs worn off, yeah.
[14:52] Melissa: Yeah, when theyâre walking in pimply and smelly and dirty, and they havenât showered in a week, you still need to light up when they walk. And I think thereâs something about that that will translate for the rest of their lives. That they know âI am deeply loved.â Light up even when theyâve done something wrong. Our correction should not be coldness. Our correction can still be full of warmth.
And so we want to light up when these people walk in the room because theyâre made in the image of God. They have been given to us for this time to raise, and so we want to shower them with affection. And there can be wrong views of affection like trying to buy them. There are wrong ways. But Iâm just talking about genuine love and interest in a person; that's always going to be a great basis for a child to go into the world with.
[15:42] Jonathan: Okay, letâs talk a little bit about how the gospel shapes our approach in parenting. What are the biblical principles that should guide us as weâre raising children?
[15:58] Melissa: The first is that Iâm the oldest sinner in the room usually, so Iâm expecting my 12-year-old to have their whole act together at twelve. Wow, that's pretty ungracious of me, right, because here I am at fifty and I donât have my act together. And so I think that one of the ways that parents can lead is to be the first to apologize. I always say my response is my responsibility. And so if Iâletâs say a kidâs done something wrong, but I manage their wrongness by yelling and losing my temper and being impatient and unkind, Iâve got to own that. That's on me. I can still hold them to a standard while holding myself to a standard, and so we have to do that.
And so I say one way grace-based homes begin is by being the chief apologizer in your home. Own it. And you know what? The kids will learn. They will learn from that and they will be able to give good apologies in their life. And you will benefit from it. Iâve had all of my kids come to me and be like, âHey, Iâm sorry I acted that way about that.â They did it on their own accord. I think it just became the conversation of the household that was safe to do. It was going to be met with love; it wasnât going to be met with the silent treatment, all of those things.
And so I think a home with grace is going to be a home with apologies. Itâs going to be a home that accepts that failure is going to happen. I mean, the Lordâs Prayer presupposes, âforgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors,â so thereâs going to be sin. Weâre living flesh on flesh in these homes. And so it presupposes that weâre going to need grace, but it also presupposes that there is a standard. So we do not lower standards. We keep the standards, but we offer correction when the standards has not been kept, and we offer love and grace in those moments as well.
[17:57] Jonathan: Well, and itâs a requirement of being a disciple of Jesus is being a forgiver. And yeah, why not start at homeânot just forgiving, but asking for forgiveness. And I think youâre right, it sets the tone for the family. But I think we can get caught up in, well, Iâm the parent and Iâve got to be the one in control and in charge and Iâm just giving directives to the little ones. Itâs hard, right? I mean, itâs hard to admit to a little child that youâve wronged them. Because you just want to say, who are you? Who are you to hold me accountable? But itâs the Lordâs holding us accountable.
Letâs elaborate a little bit on principles of prescriptions. Weâve talked a little bit about that, but as that relates to parenting.
[18:52] Melissa: Yeah. I definitely think your principles in parenting can stay very much the same as kids go from two to twenty, meaning certain principles like, oh, my child is a sinner in need of grace. That's a principle. My childâs a sinner and needs correction. That's a principle. Now, how I go about the practice of that correction is going to change greatly when theyâre two from when theyâre twelve, and if we donât make those changes, weâre going to find ourselves with very frustrated teenagers.
And so one example I like to say is when your 2-year-old makes a mistake, normally you need to offer correction right away, so if they do something wrong, they need it immediately because theyâre not going to remember tomorrow what youâre talking about.
[19:36] Jonathan: That's right exactly.
[19:37] Melissa: Theyâre in a different little universe where every moment is a new moment. Whereas with your 12-year-old, when they come in hot, and you know we all see 12-year-olds come in hot, theyâre slamming doors, theyâre in a mood, their hormones are going whatever. Right then is probably actually not the best time to offer correction or even confront them with, hey, you were really rude to me.
I like to say if my friend came in and slammed the door my first question would not be like, âHey, that's disrespectful to me.â My first question would be, âHey, how are you doing? Is everything okay?â Or if my husband came in. Like Iâd ask a question. And I think our teens need that from us. They need us to live with them in an understanding way, and often weâre real caught up in our pride and how we deserve to be talked to. And that's just very us-centered versus, âHey, is everything okay?â
And maybe even to just say, later in the day, like 6:00 PM, 7:00 PM, when theyâve had some time to cool off, to go in and say, âHey, you came in, you seemed upset today. Do you want to talk about it?â They may say yes, they may say no. And then later on, things will soften. They will soften to be able to say, âWhat would have been a good way to come in today?â That's a better time to have that conversation. And it may even be the next week. That's a better way to have that conversation than right away.
So I think we had immediate kind of discipline when they were young, and itâs really about applying wisdom to how and what weâre going to correct. Thankfully, we do not have someone following us around all day correcting every little thing we do. I think sometimes parents of teens think, Iâve got four years left. Iâve got to get this kid all sorted.
[21:20] Jonathan: To be ready for the world.
[21:21] Melissa: You donât. If you saw my teenâs bedroom, youâd be like, âWow, sheâs a terrible parent. They are a complete and utter wreck.â And I just chose that was a battle I wasnât going to fight. But certain things, I wanted them to be truthful with me, I wanted them to have character, I wanted us to be able to have conversations. And if that meant I had to deal with messy floors, I was going to deal with messy floors on there. And they are. They lived up to that low expectation.
[21:48] Jonathan: Iâm sure they love hearing that. So youâve introduced a topic that I wanted us to discuss, which is those stages of development and how do we parent differently when theyâre children versus teens. At what age is there a transformation? So when your child is little, youâre really in kind of a protection mode in terms of what they consume media-wise or literature, whatever it is, right? We have a responsibility for protecting them and not just exposing them to all the horrible things out there.
But as they get older, you and I talked about this in the beginning, but parents can tend to lean into one or the other camp, which is keeping the hyper bubble wrap around their child and never letting them be exposed to anything, or essentially letting them go out to the wolves at twelve, thirteen, whatever, and they are kind of almost drowning in âI need help. I wish someone would have kind of held my hand a little bit here.â That's a nuanced question, I know, but if we could talk about it in some generalitiesâand you can even use your own children as an example. Help parents who are at the tween period in their kidsâ lives. How do they navigate that helpfully?
[23:21] Melissa: Yeah, I think that transition is tough and itâs full of bumps and bruises. I called it in the book, I likened it to driving a stick-shift car. You have to be letting off the clutch the same time you're pressing the gas, but as youâre learning, weâre all going to stall and that's pretty normal. But I would just say as theyâre heading into these years, teens still need our involvement, but they do not need our over-involvement. And so as a parent, I think we really have to step back and say, âOkay, Iâm going to be involved. Iâm going to make sure theyâre not out drinking; theyâre not out doing illegal activities that could actually harm them. But I am not going to check their homework online.â
Okay, see this was not even an option when I was a teacherâI donât know why parents are doing this. So I always think back to when I was teaching the parents never saw the grades until the grades came out. We had a midterm grade thing. I have people in my life who are checking their kidsâ grades constantly, and Iâm likeâ
[24:36] Jonathan: I didnât even know you could do that, actually. Iâve got little kids, so Iâm, yeah, weâre not in that camp yet.
[24:41] Melissa: Well, come the teen years, theyâre finding out their kid missed one homework assignment and then theyâre all over them about it. Iâm like, just let them bear that consequence. Let them bear the consequence of a zero.
[24:52] Jonathan: That's a little bit of the helicopter/lawnmower parent mentality, right?
[24:57] Melissa: That's right. And what happens is then that child never knows what itâs like to deal with failure, and they actually need what I call safe failure. Because guess what? We all fail at things. Like we all make mistakes, we all do dumb things along the way. You want to protect them from huge failure, like youâre going to go to jail for this. But even things that we know are particularly damaging for their souls. So we want to protect them as best we can and have good rules in our home; we donât want rule-less homes; but the over-correction of being so over-involved.
If you have teenagers, they should be packing their own lunch. They should be getting themselvesâI donât wake any of my teens up, never have. They get themselves up, they knew to be at the family table for devotions at the time we always met. They could be responsible for them. And I never regret letting them be responsible for them. And so some of that is letting go of control and letting them, like again, like their room. Their rooms. Sometimes they did have to clean them.
[26:09] Jonathan: Youâve got to live in it. Theyâre the ones who have to live in it, right?
[26:11] Melissa: And they have to ⊠And they really will own it if we let them. Another big thing was we started early with our kids having them do chores and clean up the kitchen every night. But what Mike and I had to do, we had to leave the room, because yes, they would argue. Yes, they would get mad at one another. Yes, they would say, âI donât want to do it this way. Yes, it was excruciatingly slow and not well done. And Iâd come in and Iâd look at the counter and I thought, yeah, youâd feel the grit still on the counter, kids, and then do it again. Yâall get it right.
And then weâd walk out because I couldnât handle the slowness at which they did it, but if I had not given them the space to do it and fail and not do it perfectly, theyâd never learn. Where now they come home and they all know how to clean the kitchen. They know how toâand that's a gift when they go to college because they [overlapping voices] because my kids are like, âMy roommatesââ
[27:04] Jonathan: And their future spouses.
[27:06] Melissa: Yeah. âMy roommates donât know how to clean the kitchen.â
[27:09] Jonathan: Yeah. Yeah. Okay, letâs steer into some of the battle things that are taking place. We, without having to explain, we live in a secular culture. How can parents maintain hope and raise their teens to follow Christ in just the age and day in which we live where thereâs the social pressures on sexuality and defining truth and those sorts of things. How do you kind of help navigate that water?
[27:53] Melissa: Yeah, I think the earlier you can begin, the better. And some of this starts by having conversations about faith with your kids as young as you can. Mike and I were big believers in the catechism. There are different versions. We use the childrenâs catechism. And every night at the family table we did it. What I love about a catechism is the kids talk; itâs not just the parents talking. So itâs about who made you? God. What else did God make? All things. Why did God make you and all things? For His glory.
Okay, youâve already set their framework in such a better place than most kids walking into elementary school just because they know theyâre made in the image of God and that theyâre made to glorify Him. So these things can start early. I think having those conversations along the way, and just, again, this is what we valued in our homes. We have to start valuing them young because if you start coming to your kid with, âHey, Godâs Word is importantâ at age fifteen by you havenât modeled that by the way you live your life or by how youâve been in it yourself, itâs going to be hard to convince them that they should follow this ancient book.
So I would say the best way to combat culture is to have the culture that Scripture encourages us to in the home. And to really know that what's happening in your home is actually what has the greatest impact on your kids, not the world, not their teachers, not their friends. Actually the studies show over and over again parentalâwhat we do, which is kind of terrifying, we all should own itâwhat we do in the home is the biggest impact on how they are going to view certain things. It does not mean they will all come to faith. You can do everything right. We know itâs the Spirit only that awakens peopleâs hearts. But thatâ
[29:48] Jonathan: Which takes a little bit of the pressure off in that category.
[29:52] Melissa: Yes, exactly. But there are things weâre teaching them like hard work and doing a job, knowing how to do a chore. Those are things that even non-Christians know how to work hard, and even non-Christians can live in certain outwardly moral ways that we can be trying to shape and mold our kids into, in prayer that the Spirit would make their hearts alive in a lot of ways.
So I think we can be really fearful of culture. I think thereâs a lot to be concerned about. But what I will say is that when the Spirit opens our eyes, they can see, wow, culture is really empty. So my kids, I think they grew up in Christian school, but theyâve both been at large secular colleges and they just havenât been attracted to some of the worldly things because I think they know that, hey, the fellowship, the friendship of true believers is way better than this false, oh, I have to be drunk and do all these things for you to be my friend. Yeah, I donât think itâs been as enticing because theyâve actually experienced good fellowship with believers throughout their lives and theyâve seen the benefit of that. So I always try to say fight the bad by giving them the better.
[31:09] Jonathan: Yeah, I love that. Okay, two more areas I want us to just quickly dive into. One is navigating technology and social media, which again is one of the battles. And the other one is dealing with doubts. And so letâs talk about, I mean, technology is everywhere. Social media abounds. How do we navigate this? Maybe some practical tips, setting boundaries, that sort of thing. How did you and Mike do it?
[31:41] Melissa: Yeah. I mean, the first boundary is yourself. If youâre glued to your phone, okay, your kidâs going to be glued to their phone. So that's the first one. Letâs just go ahead and say it. And I will say this: I think itâs a lot harder for you raising kids now. When I had young kids, I didnât have a smartphone. I mean, can you imagine the difference? I could not, at a restaurant, just take my little cell phone and say, âHere, watch whatever showâs popular.â
[32:07] Jonathan: Yeah, keep âem busy.
[32:08] Melissa: Yeah. And so Iâm so thankful. We had to deal with those awful restaurant moments when theyâre losing their minds and having a fit.
[32:20] Jonathan: That's why we donât go to restaurants.
[32:22] Melissa: Or just not go. Sometimes itâs like fast food because that's where you can easilyâŠ
[32:28] Jonathan: In and out.
[32:29] Melissa: And so I think to be aware that what youâre doing with your phone and devices in the young years is greatly going to impact the older years. And then the other thing I would just say, as the statistics have come inâAnd the hopeful thing I have for your age, I think by the time your age, those kids get to high school, I think there will be new rules in high schools. Itâs hard right now. I view the cell phone and social media like smoking. The high school that I went to had inner courtyards, and you were allowed to go out and smoke during the middle of the day. Not when I was there. By the time I was there, inner courtyard, there as no smoking. I mean, think about it you know, airplanes, you used to be able to smoke on them, right?
[33:11] Jonathan: Iâve been on one of those planes, actually, when I was a kid.
[33:13] Melissa: Exactly. And now theyâve realized, oh, these arenât innocentâ
[33:19] Jonathan: It affects everyone in the plane, whether you want it or not, and the curtainâs not going to keep it back.
[33:24] Melissa: Exactly. And they would no more let a bunch of kids be sitting in the inner courtyard of a high school smoking now. Well, I believe, I really do believe what the studies are showing us, how bad it is for kids and their mental health. I believe one day cell phones are not going to be allowed in schoolâhopefully by the time your kids get there. I think they will not be allowed in middle and high school, so it might help parents.
But today, parents have to navigate those waters without help from culture, and itâs really hard. And so what I would say for every hour your kids spend on their cell phone or device, they will be less happy, and you have to reckon with that. The studies are in. Every further hour they spend on a device, they will be that much less happy. They will be more lonely, they will be more depressed, they will be more anxious. And so weâve got to deal with that reality as we parent, and the most loving thing we can do is to help our kids not be glued to their phones all the time.
[34:21] Jonathan: Yeah, I would imagine it fosters more of that comparative, yeah, right. My friendâs pictureâs on whatever social media platform and Iâm comparing myself at a constant rate, versus when I was a kid or teenager, it was like just what you could see in front of you.
[34:40] Melissa: Right. You didnât know that you were actually left out of the party until a week or two later. Now instantly youâre sitting home on a Friday night and you see the party that you werenât invited to.
[34:54] Jonathan: I can only imagine navigating that. Okay, doubt. That's ⊠This is a period in kidsâ life where doubt is more prevalent, more frequent. How should parents be dealing with questionsâand I heard Mike give a great answer to some of this yesterday. But how do we address the question without dismission it, but also not wanting to just give the answer straightaway is kind of what Mike was saying yesterday.
[35:37] Melissa: That's right. I think so often we hear a question and we jump to fear. Fear leads to control. So rather, the kid says something like, âYeah, Iâm not sure I believe that.â And then we hyper jump on that and give them a three-point outline of why they should believe what we believe. That is not a conversation and that is not what your teen needs. What I would say when they say, âYeah, Iâm not sure. Itâs seems really ⊠That view of whatever seems really mean,â âOkay, tell me why you think that. Tell me where you hear that. What do your friends think about it?â
Be curious about them. You already know actually what you think about whatever the thing is, but what they need to hear from you is that you actually are willing to listen as theyâre trying to sort it out. And itâs going to make sense. Kids have really small perspectives on things. I did. When I was that age, I had all sorts of bad ideas about things. Theyâre working through it, so work through it with them but donât ⊠I just donât think itâs very helpful to lecture them at that point. I think itâs good ⊠We want to have a conversation is what I keep saying.
A conversation will allow more availability to give your opinion when you are curious about what they are thinking rather than just jumping in. And the reality is, again, me lecturing them is probably not going to prove my point. But as we have conversations, Iâm going to start to understand where theyâre struggling, what theyâre struggling with, and we can keep having that conversation and it makes them a lot more receptive.
[37:26] Jonathan: Yeah. I found that helpful. Mike was saying yesterday his tendency was to just give the answer straightaway. Heâs got the PhD and all of the qualifications and credentials, but kids donât really care. Itâs like, âAll right, Dad, just chill.â And I get your point. And I think he said this yesterday, which is about let them kind of sit in the doubt for a little bit. Rather than just giving the quick, immediate response, let them wrestle with it, because this is probably the early formations of them moving out of the family faith and into a personal faith. And I think youâve hit it on the head there with opening the dialog so it can be an ongoing conversation so that when they do go off to university or whatever it is and they are presented with ideas and philosophies, they can say, âIâve already talked about that.â And I realize here all the fallacies or issues that come up with that, I think that's really helpful. But youâre right, I think we do, we tend to go to fear and we start thinking down the track what could happen if I donât resolve this immediately.
[38:43] Melissa: And to realize that conversation continues. It doesnâtâ
[38:45] Jonathan: Yeah, right.
[38:46] Melissa: All of our kids have called us. They normally call Mike, and theyâll Facetime. I mean, Emma has been on the Facetime with like ten of her friends, and theyâre like, âWe have a Bible question for you, Dad.â And I think because it felt like a conversation they actually continued the conversation.
And Iâll also say this. Itâs okay to not know. Because I get it. Like, look, itâs really convenient when you have a husband who is a New Testament scholar and can answer some of these questions.
[39:14] Jonathan: We all just need Mikeâs phone number.
[39:15] Melissa: Exactly. But I will say this. There are plenty of times heâs like, âYeah, that's a really confusing passage. Iâm not sure what that means.â I mean, they are wildly unimpressed with his knowledge base sometimes, and so itâs always nicely humbling.
But heâs very comfortable saying, âI donât know.â And I think we all should be comfortable saying, âI donât know,â and saying, âHey, letâs find out together.â Look, there are pastors out there who are waiting for calls like this. They have to deal with really hard issues sometimes, but they went to school to answer your biblical questions, and so a lot of times pastors are really eager to say, âOh, I can help you with that.â
[39:52] Jonathan: I get those from time to time, and sometimes there are the ones where, especially from little ones, and I think, how do I take what I know and put it in a way that youâll understand it. That takes some work.
[40:07] Melissa: That's the best theological classroom you can ever be in right there.
[40:10] Jonathan: Exactly. So weâve asked some parents of teens to submit some questions that theyâre wrestling with, so weâll do a little lightning round of questions here.
[41:06] Jonathan: This ties us back to what we mentioned earlier. This is kind of a newer thing. I mean, itâs always been around, but itâs more prevalent probably post-COVID, post-invention of the iPhone where kids are isolated. They are less relational than you and I would have been because that was all we had was relational collateral, personal interaction. Now kids can interact digitally and immediately and so thereâs probably a heightened level of self-consciousness, and that includes just appearance through social media and that sort of thing.
So now going into a new setting with real people and real interactions must be a challenge. So what is some advice for the parent whoâs struggling with a teenager whoâs going through that?
[42:08] Melissa: The first thing I always say is itâs good to offer sympathy to them, âHey, this is hard. I can remember what it was like to go into the lunch room and it be super awkward. Like who am I going to sit with?â We all have that. I still have that feeling sometimes. Iâm in situations many times where Iâm the only woman in a scenario, and Iâm like, hmm, which table of all men ⊠am I going to sit at? And it feels awkward.
And so sometimes just them knowing that you feel it too is helpful. But I think itâs also helpful to equip them and to say, hey, when youâre in a situation like that, other people are probably feeling nervous too, and so itâs good to go in with three questions so that you have them on your mind when youâre walking into an awkward situation. It can be a question like, heyâletâs picture the school lunchtimeâwhat's your next class after this? That anybody can answer. Itâs pretty easily, yeah, whatever.
Second one, you know, hey, where do you live? Or something like that, maybe something Iâm thinking as Iâm thinking in a business context, where are you from? But just some easily accessible questions that kids can answer. It could be, Are you going to the game this weekend? Whatever it might be so they feel equipped to actually reach out to someone else with a question and that can help conversation start.
[43:27] Jonathan: This oneâs sort of on a similar vein but on a different level. âHow do our teens manage the social rejection when you are following Christ?â
[43:44] Melissa: Yeah. I think it is really helpful to put before our kids that we are stranger and aliens in this world. And you know my kids go to a ⊠they were blessed to go to a Christian school, so they did not have to feel it at the level certain kids are going to have. But they did still get teased. All, especially, for being, oh, youâre the professorâs daughter. When sheâs in Bible class, even the teacher looks to her. âWell, would your dad agree with this?â
[44:14] Jonathan: Oh dear. I had a little bit of that, too, with my father being a pastor. What would your dad say?
[44:18] Melissa: Itâs the awkward ⊠you have to be the super-spiritual one in every instance. And we just talk some about feeling a little bit like you donât belong is actually a good sign. And that means weâre not home yet.
[44:36] Jonathan: Great reminder.
[44:37] Melissa: Yeah. When we talk about home is heaven, it makes sense.
[44:43] Jonathan: Oof. âHow do you parent a child that doesnât realize their friends are unhealthy for them?â These might all have a little bit of a sigh.
[44:54] Melissa: Itâs tough. Iâm a big believer in question-asking rather than telling. So hey, it seems like John did this and this and this. Do you think a good friend would be like in this scenario? What would you want him to do in that scenario? And then sometimes they can start to uncover, hey, this isnât the best type of person. But it always good to maybe pause and ask why are they turning to this kind of friendship? And I mean, yeah, again, praying that the Spirit would waken their hearts to see the destructiveness. Always be praying. In every one of these scenarios, let me just sayâ
[45:37] Jonathan: It starts with prayer.
[45:38] Melissa: It starts with prayer.
[45:39] Jonathan: Iâm with you. This is good, and this question actually comes into one of your chapters in your book. âHow do you prevent sports from becoming an idol, especially in regards to travel?â
[45:58] MELISSA: Yeah, itâs tough. I would manage it very carefully and just remember as good as your kid is, they probably will not play in college, and even more likely are they to create a career out of this. But you do want them to create a career and a life out of being a church member. So guard your church time. It doesnât mean you never miss. Weâve all missed church for various reasons, whether itâs travel or just vacation. You couldnât get to church for some reason.
You could say if youâre traveling itâs a great opportunity to take your kid to other churches. My kids really benefited from seeing other church traditions when we traveled. So it was great for them. One Sunday we went to a Baptist church, and they had grown up Presbyterian, so they only saw babies get baptized. It was Easter. It was spring break, so we were traveling, and they had this full-immersion baptism. Well, my kids were on the edge of their seats, and they were like, âwhat is happening here?â So for them it was great. It was a great conversation to say, âOh, this is how they do it.â Those are great conversations to have.
[47:05] Jonathan: âCourtship dance. How to handle it now.â Thereâs not a lot of Scripture on dating. How do you all navigate that with your kids?
[47:59] Melissa: We have had very little experience in this, not because we have had rules, not because of any other reason than our kids have just not dated. I think the benefit of maybe going to a small school is theyâre like, weâve known these people since we were five. Iâm not going to date them. My daughter is getting ready to get married, and she is marrying a guy she knew all through college. They met at Chapel Hill and were friends for three years and their senior year starting dating. I will fully admit, it was as easy as it could have been, and he is delightful and weâre so glad theyâre getting married.
So what I would say with my lack of experience is I do believe that rather than have rules itâs better to have conversations in this area. And so when your kid comes home to you at fifteen and says, âI really like this kid,â one, be glad theyâre willing to talk to you about it. Secondly, say, âWhat do you like about them? Tell me whatâs great about them.â Be curious rather than controlling. If I could impress anything, be curious about your kid rather than control them.
And so I would just say itâs good to have standards. When youâre talking about sexuality standards, you need to have those conversations whether theyâre dating or not. So that should be happening well before theyâre dating. way before the teen years. So Iâm just assuming that in these conversations those have happened beforehand.
But then I think modeling good friendships. If your kids are developing good friendships, itâs a big precursor to developing a good and strong marriage and good and strong dating. But I think the main thing you want to do is keep the conversation open. Hold your tongue and listen.
[49:45] Jonathan: Keeping a distraction-free family. Sort of like no cell phones at the table kind of thing?
[49:57] Melissa: Yeah. You know itâs just funny. We didnât have some of those rules, I guess. It was just understood that that's what we were doing. And I would say a big thing I would probably highlight is if youâre going to watch a movie, all watch the same movie. And so, yeah, that means youâre going to watch a lot of movies you donât really want to watch as a parent, but Iâd rather have all five of us in the den together watching a movie that maybe everyone had to compromise on, than all of us in separate rooms, watching what we want to watch.
[50:32] Jonathan: And I know Mikeâs favorite movies are horror films, right?
[50:35] Melissa: No, he has to watch those alone. Heâs not allowed to watch those with us.
[50:39] Jonathan: I was going to say. Hereâs a good one. âHow do you balance contentment and complacency and still encourage hard work?â
[50:50] Melissa: I think contentment goes right alongside with hard work. But complacency is a little different. So I think you know your child. Some children are going to need to be told, hey, you need to slow down. Some kids are going to need to be told, you need to speed up. And that's okay. But youâre going to have to know your individual child to know if theyâre not living up to who God has made them to be or if theyâre trying to prove something to the world. Youâre going to have to know that better as a parent, so itâs probably going to be different for every kid.
[51:27] Jonathan: This is similar to different types of child, but âHow do you parent the high-achieving, focused child, how to best support their talents?â And then weâll do the other side of that.
[51:37] MELISSA: Yeah. I think with the high-achieving, focused child, itâs really good to make sure theyâre not putting their worth and value in their performance. And so youâre going to have to just work with them on that and walk through that with them and encourage them that they are beloved not because of what they do but because of who they are in that. Because theyâre going to fail one day, and then how you deal with their failure and mistakes is really important because those kids arenât going to be used to it, and they really need it. They need to feel what it feels like to fail sometimes. And theyâre going to be really uncomfortable in that moment. And so walking through that with them graciously is really important.
[52:20] Jonathan: Flip side, I suppose, is âHow do you parent the low-achieving, unfocused child?â
[52:27] Melissa: Yeah, I mean, that's a really hard one, I have to admit.
[52:30] Jonathan: Yeah, because itâs different.
[52:31] Melissa: Itâs totally different, especially if itâs a child like âI know this child can do things.â One, if it is a boy, let me just say they really will get it together eventually. A lot of boys, their frontal lobeâgreat book called The Teenage Brain. You should read it. Itâs written by a neuroscientist who had two boys. Itâs great. I mean, their brains really are taking long to develop. I taught high school, and let me tell you, the boys were not winning in high school. They forgot their stuff, the reason they had Bâs rather than Aâs was not because they were not smart enough, itâs because they did not turn in their homework.
They really will, by their junior and senior year, developmentally get it together. Itâs the girls are just developing earlier. Some of the front-lobe stuff is connecting earlier. Itâs biological. So yes, have expectations, but just know that with your son you might have to remind him five times, âHey, did you pack your lunch today? Did you pack your lunch?â Donât pack it for him, but you might have to remind him more on those things.
[53:35] Jonathan: âWhen they experience rejection or seek acceptance from the wrong sources, how do we navigate that?â And I think thatâs one of your ⊠that's one of your chapters.
[53:47] Melissa: Yeah, I think that different again this one is just going to have to be prayer. Because it shares a little bit about where their heart is leaning. I mean, you can see this in some kids. Some kids just always want to be on the edge, and you can see it. I think this is where you pray and you do trust that the Lord will somehow use this season in their life.
But also I think to ask questions like, âHey, why do you want to do that? What's going on? Why is that attractive?â And itâs difficult if youâre not that type of personality to even understand. Like I donât want to get burned, so I stay way, far away from a fire, right? But some people are just drawn to the fire and they want to get close up to it. So sometimes itâs good to just ask, âHey, why do you want this? What's going on?â Again, I think with each kid itâs going to be a little bit different, so itâs important to ask what's going on with their hearts and to keep probing and keep praying.
[54:50] Jonathan: Yeah. All right, Iâll make this the last one. âWhat is the Krugerâsâ take on how much we are requiring church attendance, devotions, spiritual practices versus giving teens the freedom of choice?â
[55:03] Melissa: That's interesting. So youâre saying how much we require it versus how much we just let them make that choice.
[55:12] Jonathan: In terms of family devotion. Churchgoing I guess is part of the question.
[55:22] Melissa: That's a good question. That makes sense. So Iâm totally fine with âyouâre going to go to church on Sundayâ just because I donât make school a choice. If you can go to school all day, you can go to church, so that's just fine with me. If they donât believe, Iâm like, âThat's fine, you donât have to believe, but youâre going to go to church because we go to church, just like youâre going to go to school,â and Iâm okay with that.
When I comes to family devotions, that was again just something we had always done, so it was never a new thing. It would be like my kids saying, âOh, all of a sudden I donât want to brush my teeth.â âHuh, really? Youâve brushed your teeth since you were two. You want to stop now.â
Some of these habits, when you can start them young, they just donât know any different. My big hint to young parents is they only know the home you make normal for them. And so they donât know that no other familyâs having family devotions. When it comes to personal Bible reading, that was something I did not force at all. We gave our kids Bibles, they saw our habits and our practice, and I watched as each of my kids became interested in the Bible on their own.
We did not say, âHey, you need to read it every day.â When youâre putting them in church and youâre having devotions, youâre showing them what you value and at some value theyâve got to start picking up on those personal habits. That felt much more like the very relational, intimate walking with the Lord, and I wasnât going to try and force that on them. So there are spaces, I think, where you say, âHey, this is what we do as a family,â like go to church or have prayer time before breakfast. That's just our family rhythm, and yes, you need to participate. But when it came to their own faith and their own growth, by the teen years I think that's starting to be put in their hands.
[57:04] Jonathan: All right, before we go, encouragement for parents who are feeling overwhelmed, discouragedâwhich is probably every parent.
[57:13] Melissa: Yeah. Exactly. If youâre feeling overwhelmed, this is where Iâm always like go back to the basics. Read the Bible. Be encouraged. God is with you and He is parenting you while youâre parenting your teen. Be in prayer, ask for His help, and be around the people in the church. And so again, that makes life a lot more simple, right? Read your Bible, it will change you, it will change how you parent. Prayer will give you hope that God can change your child. And the church will give you the community you need. And then say no to a lot of other things, but simplify your life so that those things can be a priority.
[57:56] Jonathan: Well, the book is Parenting with Hope: Raising Teens for Christ in the Secular Age. Melissa Kruger, itâs always so fun, and youâve knocked out the lightning-round questions and I just want to say thank you so much for taking the time to be on Candid Conversations.
[58:14] Melissa: Thanks for having me. It was fun.
[58:16] Jonathan: Absolutely. Pleasure.
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Struggling with change? Are daily temptations and ingrained habits leaving you feeling powerless?
What does true sanctification look like? Can people change? In this thoughtful reflection, Jonathan Youssef explores the transformative power of sanctification and celebrates the Resurrection of Jesus Christ as a cornerstone of hope and change.
To connect with Jonathan or join the Candid community, visit LTW.org/Candid.
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Sit down with Jonathan Youssef for a compelling conversation with Alisa Childers and Tim Barnett, authors of The Deconstruction of Christianity: What It Is. Why It's Destructive. How to Respond. This discussion examines the pervasive and unsettling movement of faith deconstruction sweeping churches today. Whether it's affecting your loved ones, straining relationships, or stirring doubts within you, this episode provides crucial understanding and guidance.
Together, we will try to understand the core aspects of the Christian deconstruction movement, its origins, the meaning of deconstruction hashtags like #exvangelical, and why it attracts so many people, particularly those disenchanted with traditional church teachings.
Alisa and Tim offer strategies for thoughtfully and empathetically engaging with those questioning or abandoning their faith in Christ, emphasizing responses grounded in a biblical worldview.
Whether you are seeking to support a loved one in turmoil, understand the dramatic spiritual changes around you, or find answers to your spiritual doubts, Alisa and Tim provide valuable insights and answers that promise to enlighten, challenge, and encourage.
Listen and gain tools and confidence to address deconstruction with clarity and love, ensuring your faith and relationships can withstand the challenges of these transformative times.
ALISA CHILDERS is a popular speaker and the author of Another Gospel? and Live Your Truth and Other Lies. She has been published at the Gospel Coalition, Crosswalk, the Stream, For Every Mom, Decision magazine, and the Christian Post.
TIM BARNETT is a speaker and apologist for Stand to Reason (STR). His online presence on Red Pen Logic with Mr. B helps people assess flawed thinking using good thinking, reaching millions monthly through multiple social media platforms.
After you listen to this episode, you may have questions. We would love to hear from you! To ask Jonathan a question or connect with the Candid community, visit https://LTW.org/Candid
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TRANSCRIPT:
This transcript recounts Candid Conversations with Jonathan Youssef Episode 246: The Deconstruction of Christianity with Alisa Childers and Tim Barnett.
Jonathan: Today, we have quite a special situation. We have two of my favorite guests that weâve had in the past, Alisa Childers and Tim Barnett. And they have teamed up and have written a book together, The Deconstruction of Christianity: What It Is, Why Itâs Destructive and How To Respond. Thank you guys so much for taking the time. Weâre all across the nation and different nations here. Thank yâall for taking the time to be on Candid Conversations.
Alisa: Itâs great to be back with you.
Tim: Yeah, itâs good to see you.
Jonathan: Well, I think before we jump in weâve Alisa and I and Tim and I, weâve separately had conversations around this area, but I love the way you break down your book into these three parts: Exvangelical, Deconstruction, and Hope. But just again for those who are new to the terminology, letâs define deconstruction and separate it and define exvangelical, and then weâll talk about the reasons for the writing of the book.
Alisa: Which one you want to take, Tim, exvangelical or deconstruction?
Jonathan: You each get one.
Tim: All right. Iâll start with deconstruction. You know this is a tough definition to nail down. In fact, this took quite some research and quite some time. In fact, I actually changed my mind on how I was using the term. At least initially when I started teaching in deconstruction a few years ago, I thought there was a way that we could use the word deconstruction in a healthy way and there was a way we could use it in an unhealthy way. And we were seeing this kind of thing happening, especially on social media. Youâd have people like Lecrae or John Mark Holmer or other notable evangelicals using deconstruction as a healthy way, hereâs a good way to do deconstruction.
Tim: Thatâs right. And on the other hand, thereâs a whole lot of this other stuff that's very unhealthy. That's how we originally thought until we did serious research into what's going on in this deconstruction space, especially on social media where weâre seeing a movement or an explosion. And what we saw there was that there isnât anything healthy. In fact, there are defining characteristics of the deconstruction explosion that are unbiblical and just completely wrongheaded.
So at the end of the day, where we landed on thisâand again, we say this is the hardest sentence we wrote in the book, but hereâs where we landed on our definition of deconstruction: Itâs a postmodern process of rethinking your faith without requiring Scripture as a standard. And all those words are important in that sentence. So itâs a process, but itâs a very specific kind of process. Itâs a postmodern process. Whereas where you would think (this is what many claim) is that they are on a search for truth, what weâre finding is that itâs not really about truthâin fact, by postmodern we mean that there isnât a goal of truth; thereâs actually a denial of objective truth, that objective truth cannot be known.
And so thereâs that on the one hand. On the other hand, you have this rejection of Scripture as an authority. And so when we put those things together, we think these are the defining characteristics of what deconstruction is all about. And we can kind of go into more detail and give some examples of where weâve seen that, but that's a starting point.
Alisa: Right and then the exvangelical hashtag is often used synonymously with and at least in conjunction with that deconstruction hashtag. And itâs a little bit of a tricky hashtag because it doesnât simply mean, at face value, no longer evangelical. But itâs not like you have people who were raised Presbyterian and they become some kind of more liturgical Anglican or something and they use the ex. They are not using the exvangelical hashtag for that. What weâre seeing with the exvangelical hashtag is that, first of all, itâs very difficult to define what evangelical is. And that's kind of a word like deconstruction that's defined in a hundred different ways.
So thereâs the Bevingtonâs Quadrilateral that characterizes the evangelical movement under four pillars of personal conversion, emphasis on the atoning sacrifice of Jesus on the cross, biblical authority, and evangelism. And yet, if you ask people in the deconstruction hashtag what is evangelical, those beliefs are in the background for sure, but what they primarily see is God, guns and Trump. Itâs what is perceived in their minds to be this unholy alliance between evangelicals and the political right. And so itâs all kind of mashed together, along with things like spiritual abuse and purity culture and conservative politics. Itâs all kind of this ball that all gets kind of mixed together and then it all gets thrown out as exvangelical.
And so in some cases theyâre conflating evangelical with the historic Christian gospel, and in other cases, they might actually be throwing out some cultural things that are Americanized that arenât necessarily a part of the gospel. And it can be kind of like a mix of both. But itâs important like when Tim talked about the shift of authority, itsâ like the only thing that matters for the exvangelical and deconstruction is that they are leaving behind what they perceive to be toxic beliefs. And so as best as I can analyze are itâs any belief outside of yourself that you would be asked to submit to, surrender to, kneel to that is not necessarily something that resonates with you inside.
Jonathan: Interesting. So youâre the ultimate authority, which goes to the deconstruction definition of Scripture being the authority.
Alisa: I do think it boils down to that, yes.
Jonathan: Do you find this is a uniquely American phenomenon? I donât even know if phenomenon is the right word to use there.
Tim: That's a really good question. I think that thereâs a few reasons why weâre seeing this in particular in North America. Itâs happening in Canada, too, not just the U.S. I think that weâre seeing a culture that's dominated by a philosophy of relativism on the one hand and then on the other you have this kind of explosion of social media within the last decade or so. And I think bringing those two things together in particularâ
And then maybe a third thing, and that is the American church and how we have, I think, neglected the life of the Christian mind. We used to say the church teaches what we believe really well but not why we believe it. So us apologists, weâre trying to train up the church in why we believe these things. But to be honest, when you look at the research now that's coming out in the last couple of years, people who identify as evangelical, I think it was in our book we say 42 or 43 percent of U.S., so Americans, who identify as evangelical do not believe that Jesus is god. They think Heâs just a good moral teacher. Hold on a second! So these people identify as evangelical but theyâre not Christian. I mean, this is crazy!
So you have, on the one hand, Christians, people who are professing to be Christians because, hey, I was born in America or I was born in Canada. That's the default, right. Itâs like in your genetics or something. Yeah, so you have that on the one hand, so thereâs no real understanding or foundation for what real, orthodox Christianity is. Then you have this dominant culture, I mean, itâs coming from every direction, this idea of relativism. Itâs literally the water that many of your young people especially are swimming in, and they donât even know theyâre wet.
And then of course you have social media, this platform now, where I have access to, I mean, the world. I have access to memes and TikToks and these, for many, they think these are compelling arguments. I canât tell you how many times Iâm sitting here at my desk and I get a message coming in. Itâs a meme or a TikTok video that someone sends me and says, âHey, can you respond to this? I donât know what to say. I donât know how to respond.â
And I watch the video or I read the meme and I think, Really? This is not a good argument. Itâs not even close. Usually, itâs not even an argument. And so when you bring all those things together, I think that makes America susceptible to the deconstruction movement for sure.
Alisa: thereâs also the Trump element in the American version of deconstruction. Itâs just such a huge part of that that is so uniquely American. But as Tim said, I think deconstruction is happening everywhere. I know progressive Christianity is happening. Even in the Middle East Iâve gotten emails of people wanting my book to be translated into Farsi because itâs even coming into the Middle East. So where there is progressive Christianity, there is dn. But I suppose itâs just taking on maybe a different type of flavor here in America.
Jonathan: Well, and even the Trump effect has ripple effects around the world to where people in foreign nations see Trump and think, Oh, well, heâs their definition of Christian.
Letâs talk about the prevalence. Because I think there are some who think this is just happening out in large cities or this is not affecting everyday people. There can be a disconnect to just how much influence this is having. And it can be people who are watching and consuming these things that arenât even talking about it with their family because they know how the family will react when thereâs genuine questions and doubt. So tell us a little bit about what youâre seeing with the prevalence of both of these concepts entering into homes.
Alisa: Well, I think weâre in a different world now, so this is an interesting anecdotal piece to this. When I go out and speak Iâll often ask an audience, âHow many of you have heard the word deconstruction in the context of faith?â And the older the audience, the fewer the people have even heard of it. And yet, when I go speak to students itâs 90 percent. But it blows my mind. Even at womenâs conferences where women ⊠the ages are 20 to maybe 60, 70, you might have 20 percent raise their hand that theyâve even heard of the concept.
And so what I mean by weâre in a different world is decades ago you had to get a book deal. There was major exposure with ideas. And so I think that there are some of us who are still living in that world and donât realize the prevalence of some of these ideas on social media. For example, we have many posts documented in our book where itâs somebody that nobodyâs ever heard of an probably never will know their name, but their video has millions of views, hundreds of thousands of likes, and if you think about the reach of that versus somebody that you might have seen on TV decades ago or maybe in a Christian bookstore even or in the catalog that they would send out, that's a lot of people. But social media can reach so many people with a message where itâs not even necessarily surrounding a particular personality.
And so I think the prevalence of it is on social media, so someoneâs exposure to it is probably going to be directly related to what types of social media they have and how often they engaging with it.
Tim: And the other element to this, the older folks who have exposure to it, is because they have a loved one, usually a younger loved one, who is going through it and now weâre just, as we label it, this is what it is, deconstruction, they sayâit clicks. Oh, that's what my nephew is going through, or my grandchild or my son or my daughter or whatever. So it does kind of filter up to that older generation. Theyâre seeing the aftermath usually. Itâs like why is my grandson no longer following the Lord? Well, it turns out they went through a process called deconstruction.
Jonathan: Well, and I imagine some of the reactions can be unhelpful, and that's why, again, I think itâs important that books like yours are out there and podcasts and stuff that you guys are producing is out there, so that thereâs a heightened awareness but also a helpful response. Because we do have a response and a calling, but we need to make sure weâre doing it in a right and biblical way.
I wonder if we could come to the origins of this. I know Carl Lawson writes in the foreword in your book about technically the beginning is, when Demas, who fell in love with the world, abandoned Paul and the ministry and the faith. But I mean in this particular area, is it with social media? Was there a particular person or is it just postmodernism in general? Where do you find your origins to these movements?
Tim: Well, itâs true that we could trace this thing past Demas. We can go all the way back to the Garden of Eden, always. But just more recently in the 1960s we see postmodern philosophers like Derrida in particular, who is the father of deconstruction. Now of course, his application of deconstruction was to textbook religion. He argued that objective meaning, objective truth, could not be known, and that there was no actual truth, so the reader could import just as much meaning as an author of a text. And what we traced in our research is we saw there is a connection here.
In fact, we discovered a book by John Caputo, who is a scholar and actually follows Derrida and applies Derridaâs philosophy not just to textbook religion in general, but in fact, to Christianity. And he wants to do this postmodern move even on the words of Jesus. And so he gives application in his book. What would Jesus think about, say, homosexuality today? Well, He would look around the world and see loving, monogamous relationships and He would be affirming. Even though Derrida says, yet, in the first century, no, Paul and Jesus, they had a certain view on this, but weâre going to bring new meaning to the text. In fact, the way Derrida describes this is Derrida says the text actually never arrives at a meaning. In fact, he has this analogy of a postman delivering a letter, and itâs like the letter never arrives at its destination, and in that sense, Christianity has not arrived. There is no set fundamental beliefs that you need to hold toâin fact, they are always changing, never arriving.
So this is kind of the history, and of course thereâs lots of people who donât know who Derrida is, they donât know who John Caputo is, and yet, they are taking a page out of his playbook. They are thinking in terms of that kind of postmodern philosophy as they look out at religion. Itâs not what is actually true corresponds to reality; instead, itâs there is something else going on. Oftentimes, itâs personal preferences are the authority, or maybe theyâre looking at the culture and saying, âYeah, look, the culture is more accepting of sexuality and so we ought to be too.â
Jonathan: Yeah, just like in the days of Noah. Help us understand who are some of the primary voices behind this today? I know we talked about how when youâre on social media it can be a lot of nameless, faceless people who just have an opinion and they want to create an argument or a non-argument that has an effect on people with their emotions. Are there any that are writing or have some influence as, you know, even by way of warning people, hey, be careful of so-and-so because it tends towards this trajectory?
[24:42] Alisa: Well, I would say thereâs, in my mind, and Tim might have some others, but in my mind thereâs one figure in particular that is, in my view, the most influential, although heâs not primarily promoting quote/unquote âdeconstruction,â is Richard Rohr. Richard Rohr, his ideas, his universal Christ worldview, isâInterestingly, when I was researching the coaching and therapy sites, I found all the ones I could find online of people offering services to coach you through deconstruction or even offer you therapy through your deconstructionâand by the way, these therapy and coaching sites are not helping you to remain a Christian; they are not interested in where you land, they just want to help you along your subjective journey.
But even the ones that arenât claiming to be Christians, thereâs always this recommendationâI looked at all the book recommendations, and there is a Richard Rohr book there every single time, even among those that donât claim to be Christians. And so what Rohr has done, I think, is, especially among people who want to retain the title Christian but might be more spiritual but not religious, or some sort of a New Age-y kind of Jesus is more of a mascot kind of thing, Rohr has really given them a worldview to put in place of what theyâve turned down. And he does talk about deconstruction in his book, Universal Christ, and he says itâs like the process of order, disorder, and then reorder.
Well, that sounds good at face value. Youâre taught a certain thing, and then something messes it up and as an adult you have to do some digging and some work and then you reorder. But that's not exactly what heâs talking about. His order stage is what he calls âprivate salvation,â your private salvation project. In other words, Rohr doesnât believe in personal salvation, he believes in universal salvation, heâs a universalist. So heâs saying that's like the kindergarten version of faith, this kind of Christianity where you have personal faith and you have this God of wrath and judgment. All of that just needs to be disordered so that ultimately you can reorder according to his worldview.
Now I bring up Rohr because heâs so influential. I mean, he makes his way into so many of the deconstruction conversations. But beyond Rohr, itâs tough because there can be platforms that swell up and get really big, and then I've seen them shut down after they have maybe 20,000, 30,000 followers, even up to hundreds of thousands of followers. Iâve seen several of these platforms just kind of get burned out and they shut down. So itâs hard to say, but I would say Derek Webb, Caedmonâs Call, is an important voice in there. Youâve gotâWell, Jon Steingard was for a while when he ended up shutting down his YouTube, but he was the lead singer of Hawk Nelson. He was commenting for quite a while. Jo Luehmann is pretty influential. Who else, Tim?
Tim: Well, thereâsâI put them in different categories.
Alisa: The NakedPastor.
Tim: The NakedPastor for sure. So thereâs guys who, and gals who have deconstructed and posted that theyâve deconstructed online. So that would be someone like a Rhett McLaughlin, who 3 million people watched his video four years ago. Heâs been keeping people updated every year; they do kind of an anniversary thing. That sparked so many people on their own deconstruction. Now what's interesting about Rhett is he didnât necessarily tell you how to
Tim: Yeah. And that was enough for some people to say, âMaybe I should do this too.â Now thereâs other platforms out there, and all they do is criticize Christianity, or they mock Christianity. Those are big on TikTok. I mean, there are massive platforms that have half a million followers and millions of views, okay, and I could go down and list some of those for you. But the point is theyâre not necessarily talking about deconstruction and the process, but theyâre just saying, âHey, hereâs what you guys believe, but hereâs my mocking, hereâs my criticism.â
Then thereâs this other stream, and this is the NakedPastor or Jo Luehmann and others who arenât just mocking Christianity or criticizing Christianity but theyâre trying to advocate for a certain kind of process, okay, and that's where youâre going to get a little more detail on how this deconstruction thing works out. And so theyâve been, in fact, Jo Luehmann and the NakedPastor, David Hayward, andâ
Jonathan: Joshua Harris. Didnât he do a course through that?
Tim: That's right. Joshua Harris, when heâagain, on Instagram. That blew up. There were like 7,000 comments in response to him just posting, âIâm no longer a Christian.â And you could see the responses, and Iâm telling you, there were many who said, âThis post is what set me on my deconstruction journey.â So thereâs at least three different categories of influencers out there, and theyâre all playing into the same thing, deconstruction, but they all are coming at it from a different angle.
Jonathan: Alisa, for those who are familiar with your story, how is this movement different from the path that you were on?
Alisa: This is a great question because Iâve actually changed my mind on how I talk about this. So over ten years ago I had a faith crisis that was really agonizing. It was years long. I landed fairly quickly in going through some apologetics arguments, knowing that God existed, but just the doubts that would nag at me were just years of this agonizing research, reading thousands of pages of scholarship, just trying to figure out if what I believed was actually true. And it was propelled by a progressive pastor. I didnât know he was progressive at the time, but I was in a church where there was this class going on and it set my friends, a bunch of my friends, into deconstruction.
And so when I wrote my first book about my journey, I actually called the process that I went through deconstruction because it was horrible, I wouldnât wish it on my worst enemy. It was agonizing and I had to kind of de-con-struct. If you just take the word at face value, and then build back from the beginning.
But interestingly, when I would go online and I would talk about my deconstruction, deconstructionists would come on and say, âNo, you didnât deconstruct.â At first, that was so confusing to me. I was like, âWell, were you there?â I mean, it was like this horrible, agonizing process.
Jonathan: Iâm the ultimate authority here.
Alisa: Yeah, right, I know. And they said, âWell, you didnât deconstruct because you still hold to toxic theology. You still have toxic theological beliefs.â And that's when I realized, oh, okay, so this isnât justâeven though I knew it wasnât a good thing, I knew it was a horrible thing because, again, I wouldnât wish it on my worst enemy, but it wasnât about truth. Itâs actually about leaving behind these beliefs that they think are toxic. And letâs say you completely do hard work of years of studying and you decide that you are a sinner and that Jesus did die on the cross for your sins, that the Bible is Godâs Word and that what Jesus claimed about Himself is true and that He proved it by resurrecting from the dead, if you hold to those beliefs, along with the biblical sexual ethic, you have toxic theology and youâve got to go back to the drawing board and start over.
So that's when I realized, okay, thereâs more to this. And so I actually correct myselfâ
Jonathan: Thereâs a goal.
Alisa: Yeah. I correct myself in the new book and say I donât actually use the language of deconstruction to describe what I went through because I was on a truth quest. I wanted to know what was true, whether I liked it or not, whether it resonated with me or not. In fact, what was interesting in the class I was in where all my friends ended up deconstructing, and I mean all that I know of, there might be two that I lost touch with that maybe didnât, but most of the people that I know of did. And everything in that class was all about what resonates with me. I mean, we would ⊠they would talk about Bible verses and say, âWell, that just doesnât resonate with me,â and they would toss it aside. And I was like, âYou canât just do that.â
And so I didnât deconstruct, and so I corrected my language on that and really changed my mind about what I think it is. And I think what Iâm hoping to set the example for others is people who are wanting to use the word because it was trendyâbecause I really had a thing about that. Why am I using the word? Why am I hanging onto the word? And I had to realize thereâs no reason for me to use that word. Because what I did was search for truth. I tested all things, held fast to what is goodâthat's biblical. I donât need a postmodern word to describe that. And so that would be my journey with this word and kind of my relationship with it is that Iâve changed my mind; I didnât deconstruct. It wasâ
Jonathan: You re-entrenched.
Alisa: Yeah, they just think I circled some wagons and found some people to agree with me. Which is so interesting to me, because they werenât there. And that's the thing. Pete Ens, Iâve seen the comment from him, âOh, Alisa doesnât know ⊠she doesnât understand deconstruction, she doesnât get it.â
And Iâm just like, âWere you there? You werenât there. You have no idea what I went through.â But itâs like theyâre so quick to say, âYou have to respect my lived experience,â but they are the first ones that will not respect your lived experience if you land at historic Christianity for sure.
Jonathan: That makes sense. You guys have spent hours on places like TikTok researching what leads people to deconstruct and what they all have in common. What are the common threads that youâve noticed through that?
Tim: Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, some of the factors that weâve noticed that kind of launch people into a deconstruction are things like doubts, unanswered questions. Virtually all these stories have some instance of suffering or pain, and weâve all been through that. Thereâs church hurt, thereâs spiritual abuse. Now weâve got to be careful about that a little bit, because sometimes itâs a real abuse that happens, of course, we would all want to say that is horrible and we stand against that. That is not of God. And so when a pastor engaged in that kind of thing, he needs to be held accountable for it.
But then on the other hand there is what we might call perceived abuse or perceived harm. And this is where things like teaching the doctrine of hell. In our research, we found that that's called, you know, teaching your kids, itâs child abuse. If you say that Jesus died for your sins, that's considered toxic and abusive to tell someone that, yet that's the gospel message. So we want to make sure that we distinguish between those things.
Of course, we just mentioned earlier about politics and Trump and all that stuff. So thereâs these different elements that youâll see peppered within these stories. Now we want to be quick to say that not all deconstruction stories are alike. In fact, they are often very unique, and that's because every single person is unique. So if youâve heard one deconstruction story, then youâve only heard one, you havenât heard them all. But there are these common threads.
One question that we asked when we were doing our research is why is it that two people can grow up in the same house, they can go to the same church, the same youth group, they have the same parents, they experience some of the same trauma, suffering, whatever, and yet one will deconstruct and the other maybe becomes an even more faithful believer. What's going on there?
And what we found is it comes down toâat least one elementâa faith foundation. What is it, what is your faith foundation? And of course, this is going to be different for different people, and what we need to be asking, weâre challenging the church to ask, is what does it mean to be a Christian? Oftentimes, you knowâand this is a question I was asked when I was in university by my friends who were not believers, âTim, why are you a Christian?â And I honestly shot back, âBecause my parents are Christians.â That was my first response. I knew that ainât right. That was embarrassing.
Iâd grown up in the church. Iâd done all the church stuff, and yet I did not have a strong Christian foundation and a strong Christian faith. And so I, at that point, was very susceptible to this kind of deconstruction, right, because I couldâif TikTok was big at that time, I could have watched a video and, âOkay, Iâm outta here. This has been refuted.â
So I think that all those things that I mentioned earlier can make you a good candidate for deconstruction, but they donât have to lead you down the path of deconstruction. This is why itâs really, really important that the church needs to be helping to develop and disciple Christians so they have a strong foundation so when that crisis hits, they are able to stand firm in their faith.
So let me ask this question. There may be a simple answer. Is the faulty foundations that people are building on essentially, I mean, is the answer anything but Christ? Is it in the institution of the church or in the leadership in the church or your favorite Christian singer? Is it ⊠do you find those the main threads that came back?
Alisa: That's an interesting question. I think, you know, when I think about foundation ⊠Because I was trying to think through this question even within my own context. So one of my sisters was not a Christian until she was an adult, and she would say that openly; that's part of her testimony. She grew up in church. We grew up in the same home, we had the same discipleship, the same youth pastors, pretty much the same experiences growing up, same environment, and yet our foundation was different because I was a devoted Christian as far back as I can remember. I mean, I donât even remember a time where I didnât absolutely know that the Bible was Godâs Word and Jesus was who He said He was. And yet, for my sister, she grew up in the same environment but had a totally different foundation. she did all the things, she cooperated with it, but She never personally trusted in Christ.
Jonathan: Going through the motions, yeah, okay.
Alisa: Yeah. And she may not have even realized that. You might have asked her at 12 years old, âAre you a Christian,â she might have said, âWell, yeah,â but she didnât know that she wasnât until she actually got saved as an adult. And so I think the foundation is more of a personal thing. The way I see it is the level of understanding you might have had. We have a lot of this sort of seeker-sensitive model that's over the past few decades has gotten really big. Iâm not saying itâs wrong to have a large church or try to be sensitive to people who are seeking, of course. But some of those seeker-sensitive and megachurch models really watered-down the gospel, really sacrificed discipleship for numbers. And I think that that has resulted in a lot of people growing up in churches that maybeâ
And Iâm not ⊠We donât speculate on this question in the book, were they really saved, were they not because we donât know the end of their story either, but I do think even right now we have a lot of people in our churches who maybe may not be Christians because they may not be getting the gospel, theyâre not getting Bible teaching. And they might like the community and even like and believe certain things about it, but everybodyâs foundation is maybe going to be a little bit different. That's kind of how I see it.
Jonathan: Well, I mean, not to steer us theologically, but I mean it has to be the work of the Spirit in the life of a person, and that's all in the sovereign timing of the Lord. I wonder if sometimes in this American evangelical mindset from an older-generation perspective we have this understanding that my children should be Christians and they should be following the ways that I direct. And then I should start seeing spiritual fruit in their life. Like, well, I donât know. I mean, is there something wrong with that happening at a later point? Just thinking from a parental, a parentâs perspective. Maybe Iâve gone into the weeds there a little bit.
Alisa: Like Tim said, each deconstruction story is unique. I would say it like this. Every deconstruction story is unique and yet theyâre kind of all the same, too, in certain points. I know weâre getting in the weeds a little bit, but as a parent, I wouldnât want to push my kid to say they believe something they donât really believe. Iâd want them to come to that on their own. And that might come later, certainly, yeah.
Jonathan: And thereâs a level of you want your child to be honest with you, and I think sometimes we can put a false expectation on your child to be going to be at a certain place when theyâre just not ready for that yet. And so what theyâre actually deconstructing is deconstructing whatever that false viewâagain, as you said, thereâs different stories of deconstruction. But ultimately, if you deconstruct and never return back, to your point, there was never faith to begin with. You experienced the benefits of a covenant community or whatever it is. As Hebrews says, you were tasting but you werenât of that, you know ⊠not all Israel is Israel.
Do you think itâs potentially because parents are unwilling to engage in the hard questions of the faith? Or do you think perhaps there is always just people who are going to rebel against Christ? Is it all of the above? In your research, I donât know if youâre working with people who have gone through it and then interviewing them. Are you tracing things back to a particular point? I think we all want to say, âWhere does the blame lie?â Are you finding that?
Tim: I think itâs all of the above. A lot of these stories have unanswered questions. In fact, Alisa did a debate on Unbelievable with Lisa Gunger, and she makes this really tragic statement where she said, âQuestioning was equivalent to sinning in our church. If you questioned the pastor, you questioned his teaching, whatever, you were in essence sinning.â
So confessing to your questions is confessing your sins. And that mentality, I mean, we wrote a whole chapter called âQuestions,â In that chapter, what weâre trying to do is a little bit of a wake-up call. Weâre trying to rattle the church a little bit and say, âHey, we can do better. We ought to be the place where people feel safe to ask their questions and express their doubts.â And I hope that everyone listening to this hears that. Tim and Alisa are not against questionsâin fact, weâre apologists. We travel around and weâre doing our best to answer questions, so weâre not against that, and we want the church to be a safe place.
And I mean we give an example of Tim Keller. At the end of his sermons, his services, he would do like a 40-, 45-minute Q&A time where he would just stick around and, okay, come on up. And in New York City, where you have like diversity of people, diversity of views coming in, youâre going to have skeptics, youâre going to have atheists, youâre going to have whatever coming in, asking their hard questions. And when you think about it, the way we have our churches structured, at least most of them, there isnât really a Q&A time. That would be like a very special thing. Maybe every few months the pastor will take questions or something.
Jonathan: A special treat. Yeah, yeah.
Tim: That's right. But for the most part, that's not there, and that can give a lot of people the impression that questions arenât allowed here. You just listen to what's spoken, do what youâre told, and that's the end of it. So I think that's part of it. But you also mentioned, yeah, maybe thereâs a rebellious heart, too. You canât read the Bible very far without seeing someone who has a rebellious heart. So weâ
Tim: That's right. Just a couple of pages in. And so you end up seeing that this is a realistic element that we need to be talking about, too, and that's why we devoted an entire chapter to the deconstructor, because there are things about the deconstructor that are important to be aware of from a biblical anthropology perspective. And so there certainly are people who are seeking answers, and we want to be there to provide answers. But then thereâs also these questions out there that are seeking exits. And you see lots of those. You see them in Scripture and we seeâ
When youâve got Richard Dawkins saying, âWell, who made God?â Richard Dawkins should know better, you know. When my four-year-old asks that question, okay, fair enough. But when you have an academic from Oxford asking that question as if itâs legitimate of the Christian God, something else is going on.
Jonathan: I remember Keller teaching on Job, and he says Job is filled with questions, right, but the issue was that he never left God. He didnât say, âI have questions and now Iâm going to go over here and ask them.: But he kept asking the questions of the Lord in his particular situation. And he was saying that questioning can be a good thing because itâs, as we talked earlier, all truth is Christâs truth, so thereâs nothing to be afraid of. Youâre not going to get an answer where it should cause difficulty. But rather, youâre sticking close to the source and youâre going to get your answers within reason. But rather than goingâ
And itâs interesting, because that's what these TikToks and all these things are creating is new avenues for you to go and ask questions and find a story that resonates with you, right, thatâs the big terminology that we were using earlier. So that resonates with your story and how you feel, and then where did they land?
How do we invite this sort of cultivating an openness for asking of questions? Is it letâs have a Q&A session at the end of church? Is it, you know, we need to start training our parents to have them understand that your kids asking questions is a good thing because theyâre coming to you versus no, everything is fine and Iâm going to go to YouTube and find the answer because I think youâre going to be mad at me or whatever it is. Help us think through that from a church perspective.
Alisa: Well, I think starting with the parents is a great place to start because if we can train parents to be the first person to introduce some of these difficult topics to their kids, we know statistically the first person to introduce the topic will be viewed as an expert in the eyes of the child. So when we as parents are the first people to talk to our kids about gender and sexuality and all of these different thingsâand promoting an environment where weâre not weird about it, weâre not acting awkward about it, then we want to be the Google. I want to be Google for my kids. And that means Iâm going to be really honest when they ask their questions and sometimes give more information than they wanted.
My daughter, she jokes with me like âI know Iâll get a straight answer from you with whatever I ask.â And so maybe even training parents to ask your kids questions like âHey, what's your biggest question about God?â
And parents donât need to be afraid of what their kids say, because itâs perfectly fine to say, âWow, Iâve never really thought about that. Letâs think that through together,â and then go do some research and continue to engage with your kid about it. But I think in the home, if we can start there, that's a great place. And then the church can help come around parents with even youth groups doing Q&As and pastors doing Q&As. I think that's a huge way to promote that environment from the home, all the way through the church culture.
Jonathan: Okay, letâs do a little sort of engaging with others segment here. What would you say to those who are seeing their loved ones go through deconstruction or exvangelical. What would you say to them? Buy our book.
Tim: Yeah, that. And I mean the first thing that I would say is stay calm. It can be not just earthshattering for the person going through deconstruction, but the loved ones of those deconstructors itâs often earthshattering. We talk about this in the book, actually. To find out that my kids who Iâve raised in the church come to me and say, âDad, I donât believe any of this stuff anymore, Iâm out,â that would be crushing.
And I would want to remind myself: stay calm. Iâve heard so many stories, and theyâre actually horror stories, where a child comes to a parent and says, âIâm deconstructingâ and the parent just loses it. âHow could you do that?â And they overreact, and of course that's not going to help. That's the first thing.
I would want my kids right away to know that they are loved, period. That this doesnât change my love for them. Itâs not âI love you, but let me fix your theology.â Itâs âI love you, period. Youâre still my daughter. Iâm still your dad. That's not going to change.â
And then another thing just to add is say thank you. It must have taken a lot for that individual, if they come to you and share that theyâve deconstructed, it must have been a big deal to do that. So I would say, âThanks for sharing that with me and me being the person that can be there for you.â
So those are introductory things. Obviously, relationship is going to be so important. Itâs not necessarily that youâre going to be able to maintain the relationship. Weâve heard stories of people getting no-contact letters from their loved one saying, âYour theology is toxic. I donât want anything to do with you and so weâre done. Hereâs my no-contact letter.â
But if theyâre willing to stay in your life, then we want to do whatever is possible to maintain that relationship without compromising truth. Truth is absolutely necessary. But you want to be in that relationship as long as possible, because that's where youâre going to be able to have probably the best impact.
Itsâ interesting you brought up Job earlier. And Jobâs comforters started on the right track. They were there and they sat with Jobâ
Jonathan: Silent.
Tim: Silently for seven days. And then it was when they started to open their mouths they got themselves into trouble, and I think we can learn something from that. So we want to hear, âHey, tell me your story.â
One of the first questions I would want to know is, âWhat do you mean by deconstruction?â If theyâre using that word, I want to know if they just mean, âHey, Iâm asking some questions. Hey, I donât know if I believe in this view of creation, baptism, and maybe Iâm changing.â
Okay, that's different than what weâre seeing online, okay, this idea of a postmodern process. So I want to nail down, okay, what are you going through and what kind of process or methodology are you using to go through it? I want to be able to identify those things.
And of course, in the book we talk about this idea of triage. If you have a gunshot wound to the head but a broken finger, theyâre treating the gunshot wound to the head, right, the thing that's more serious. And in a similar way, once you understand where this personâs coming from, youâve heard their story, youâre going to be able to do some triage. Okay, what's the most important thing in this moment? Is it that I answer all these questions that Iâm having? Is it that they just need me to be with them because they are going through something?
And I think that's important because sometimes we miss the mark. Especially as apologists, oh, let me answer that question. Letâs go for coffee. Iâm going to fix your theology and then weâll be back on track.
Jonathan: Weâre going to fix the problem, yeah.
Tim: That's likely not going to happen. And then finally, I would just say continue to pray. We cannot underestimate the power of prayer. If someone is going through deconstruction, what they need is God. They need the Holy Spirit. And so letâs petition God on their behalf. Letâs pray that God does whatever is necessary to draw that person back to Himself.
Jonathan: All right, now thinking for the person who is considering deconstructing their faith. And again, that could be a myriad of different positions along that path, but what are the things you would want them to know?
Alisa: Well, so hereâs what I would say. If someone is considering deconstruction as if itâs like an option, âOh, maybe Iâll deconstruct my faith,â and thereâs no crisis that's actually throwing you in deconstruction, I would say you donât need to do that. Thereâs no biblical command to get saved, get baptized, and then deconstruct your faith. You donât need to do that. If there are some incorrect theological views that youâmaybe you grew up in a very legalistic stream of Christianity. Maybe you grew up in the Mormon church. Maybe you grew up as Jehovahâs Witness and you need to go to Scripture, make Scripture your authority, and then get rid of beliefs that were taught to you that are not biblical. I want you to know that that is a biblical process and that is what you should do.
Jonathan: This is what we call disentangling, right, that we were talking about.
Alisa: Yes. In our book, we would call it reformation. But yeah, Jinger Duggar calls it disentangling. I donât care what you call it. I would just really encourage you to not use the word deconstruction, because deconstruction is a very specific thing that isnât about getting your theological beliefs corrected according to the Bible, and so we want to be reforming our faith according to Scripture. And so if you need to disentangle, as Jinger would say, or reform beliefs that were unbiblical, please do that. And that can be a very long process. It can be a difficult process.
But if someone is listening whoâs maybe propelled into deconstruction through some church abuse or whatever it might be, my encouragement would sort of be the same. Itâs actually good for you to get rid of beliefs that led to abuse, that Jesus stands against abuse as well. But I would just encourage you not to get sucked into this sort of deconstruction movement, because itâs not based on absolute truth. Itâs not based on Scripture. And itâs not going to lead you to any sort of healing and wholeness spiritually. And so whether youâre just considering it intellectually or youâre just interested, I would resist it. And that's ⊠Thereâs going to be well-meaning evangelical leaders that will tell you you can deconstruct according to the bible, but I donât think you can. And so letâs keep our language and the way we think about this biblical rather than bringing in a postmodern concept that just clouds the ⊠muddies the water and causes confusion.
Jonathan: All right, this is good because this goes to the next level. What do you say to those who believe that Christianity is toxic or patriarchal? What's your word to them? And then the follow-up to that would be for believers. When do we engage and when do we not engage with people who are kind of promoting that sort of ideology?
Tim: I would want to ask some questions, like what do they mean by toxic, what do they do they mean by patriarchal, to nail down those definitions. Are they appealing to something objective or are they appealing to something subjective based on their own personal preferences? I think itâs really important that we start with what's true before we can look at whether or not something is toxic, or harmful, or whatever.
In the book, we give the example of you stumble upon someone whoâs kind of beating on someoneâs chest, and in that moment it may look like theyâre being abused, but you come to find out that actually theyâve had a heart attack, and that person is not beating on their chest, theyâre doing chest compressions, doing CPR. That totally changes how you see that action, right? It goes from being, hey, that's harmful and toxic to, wait, this is lifesaving, this is lifegiving.
So I think that's really important, when I see a deconstructionist talk about how hell is causing child abuse, I want to know, first of all, if there is such a place as hell. For them, itâs not even on the table; itâs not even the question, right, because itâs a totally different philosophy, a totally different worldview. I want to look at is this true?
I give the example of I told my kids not to jam a knife into the wall socket. Well, why not? Because thereâs electricity in there and it could electrocute you and kill you. So any good parent warns their kids about that. Or touching the hot stove, these kinds of things. Is it harmful for me to tell them not to do that? Everyone agrees, no, that's not harmful; itâs not toxic. Now, it would be toxic if there was no such thing as electricity. If Iâm just playing these games where Iâm trying to torment my kids so theyâre scared to do whatever, to actually make them terrified of the stove or something. No.
Okay, the reason that they need to be careful around this hot stove or not stuck, stick stuff in the wall outlet is because there are dangers. And if hell really is this kind of danger, then we ought to appropriately talk about this issue. Look, Iâm not talking to my three-year-old about eternal conscious torment. You know what Iâm saying? Obviously, there is some appropriate when the time is right. Sexuality, we appropriately talk with those ⊠about those issues with our kids. But we do talk about those things, and that's because theyâre true, and that's were we start.
Jonathan: That sort of answers a little bit of the next question, which is that you both dedicated the book to your children. And weâre, I think, weâve kind of addressed it in terms of being available. But in light of everything that you know and all that is going on with deconstruction and the questions and the struggles of the next generation, how are you taking this and applying this as you raise your children?
Alisa: Well, I know that this research has definitely affected how I parent. In fact, I went through a phase in the early stages of the research where I would hear myself saying things, and I was like, âThat's going to end up in their deconstruction struggle.â And I found myself almost becoming way too passive for it was probably just a couple of months when the research was so intense, and it was new. And it was like, oh my gosh, all these things iâm saying to my children is what people say they think is toxic and that's what theyâre deconstructing from.
And then I swung back around and Iâm like, no, itâs my job as a parent to teach my kids what's true about reality. Just because maybe culture things that 2 + 2 = 5 now doesnât mean that I need to cower and say, âWell, you know, Iâm not going to be too legalistic about 2 + 2 + 4.â No. 2 + 2 = 4. You can believe what you want, but this is what's true. And so I actually, you know, what Iâve started to do is tell my kids âLook, itâs my job as your mom to teach you what's true about reality. And what you believe about God and what you believe about morality is in the same category of science, math, logic. These are facts about reality. Itâs my job to teach you. Now, you are the person who chooses to believe it or not.â
And so what Iâve tried to do is really engage my kids in conversations, but knowing also that statistically they might deconstruct one day. I have to leave a lot of that to the Holy Spirit, and also to try to model to my children what a real believer looks like. I think that's a huge, a huge element in parenting is letting our kids see us repent to them if we sin against them, in front of them. Reading our Bibles on a regular basis together, praying together as a family. Not just being Sunday Christians. Here in the South itâs real easy to just be that Sunday Christian and thenâ
Jonathan: Haunted by the ghost of Christ.
Alisa: That's right. And then you just live like He doesnât exist the rest of the week. And that's the thing about the Bible Belt. Certainly, people arenât acting ⊠like doing pagan sacrifices during the week. They are pretty much good people. But itâs just not relevant to their lives until Sunday comes around. And just being different from that in front of our kids is something Iâve really tried to engage.
And just engaging their questions without pushing them, I think, is a huge thing. Like you mentioned earlier, is letting them have their own story and their own journey. And even as my sons wrestled with the problem of evil for about two years really intensely, I really didnât want to push him. And I just validated that that's a good question, that's an honest question to ask, and letâs talk to the Lord about it, letâs think through some things. But trying not to push him to just settle really quickly so that he can work this out for himself, with discipleship and the guidance of parents. But that's one of the ways itâs really affected my parenting.
Tim: That's so good. Yes and amen to all of that.
Jonathan: Okay, I second that. All right, give us some hope. This is your part three. Part three. This can all sound pretty scary and off-putting and you need to block it out.
Tim: It really really does seem hopeless, especially if you spend any time kind of typing in hashtag deconstruction or hashtag exvangelical. I mean, I would go into my office here and start working and writing and Iâd come out and Iâd just be like ⊠my mood has changed.
Jonathan: Spiritual warfare, for sure.
Tim: My wife knew it, oh yeah, my wife saw it and my kids could see it. It was really discouraging. And so I feel for those parents who have that loved one whoâs going through this, and many do, so we wanted to make sure we end the book on a hopeful note. And one of the things that we were thinking aboutâin fact, I think it started with a phone call. I called Alisa, and I remember I was sitting at my dining-room table and I had a sermon that I was going to give on deconstruction. And Iâm like, Alisa, I need to end this thing with something hopeful because it is so ⊠And I had, actually, a parent reach out to me before I gave the sermon, saying, âI really hope that youâre going to give us some hope.â Because they have a child themselves, a young adult, whoâs deconstructing. Iâm thinking, okay, what is it Alisa? Help me out here.
And we just started talking back and forth and so I donât know how this came up, but eventually we started thinking about Easter weekend, right, weâre coming up to it. Of course, you think about what was going on Friday night. Itâs like Peterâs there; heâs seen his Savior, his Messiah being crucified, and his world is turned upside down. We could just imagine what that was like to go through this traumatic experience.
And then, of course, it jumps to Sunday and Sunday brings with it resurrected hope, right? And you have the angel shows up, tells the women, you know, go and tell His disciples AND Peter. Like Peter really needs to hear this. Friday night, he denied the Lord three times. It was a bad night for Peter. But heâs going to receive this resurrection hope on Sunday.
Well, we actually titled the last chapter âSaturdayâ because we think that a lot of people are living in what could be described as a Saturday. Now again, weâre not told much about that particular Easter Saturday, so we can only speculate, but really, I mean, what kind of questions were the disciples, in particular, Peter, asking? Were they starting to doubt some of the things that they had been taught, maybe like trying to explain away some of the miracles they had seen? It wasnât supposed to happen this way, was it? And so thereâs self-doubt, thereâs all this trauma that theyâve experienced.
Now of course, Sunday was just around the corner. We think that, look, if that hope can come for Peter, then it can come for you and your loved one, too, right? We donât know what that Saturday looks like. It may not be tomorrow. It may not be just one 24-hour day. It could be months down the road; it could be years down the road; but we think this is a message. Because if it can happen for Peter, it can happen for your loved one. And I think that can move us from a state of âThis is completely hopeless, what good can come from this? How can this be undone,â to a state where, no, we can be hopeful. Jesus rose from the grave after being dead. And when that happened, Peterâs faith is restored.
âDo you love me?â He says, âYeah, I love you.â Three times, kind of like paralleling the three denials.
Jonathan: Exactly.
Tim: And then the Church is built on this confession. So I mean that brings me hope, and hopefully it brings hope to others who are going through this.
Jonathan: Just one final question. Have you seen anyone whoâs been restored out of this?
Alisa: You know what? I have heard a few stories, but these are people that have platforms. So I have several people that are part of my Facebook community who have said they deconstructed into progressive Christianity but have been brought back. I have had a couple of people on my personal podcast who had deconstructed. One is a guy name Dave Stovall. We actually tell his story in the book. He was in the band Audio Adrenaline, and he deconstructed into progressive Christianity and then a local pastor here in town discipled him back to the historic Christian faith and had all these difficult conversations with him and engaged him in conversation. So I think we are seeing some. Weâre not seeing a lot yet, but I think a lot of the stories maybe are just more private, where people arenât necessarily shouting it on social media. But yeah, the Lordâs at work, absolutely.
Jonathan: That's good.
Tim: Yeah, I can echo that, too. Weâve been ⊠A I travel around teaching and speaking, Iâll have people come up to me and usually you get a lot of people saying, âThanks for hits information. I had no idea this was going on.â But this one guy, he said, âI went through deconstruction.â And he said, âIt was when you put up your definition of deconstruction that you had me because thatââ
Alisa: Wow!
Tim: I thought he was going to push back and be like, âBut that's not how you define it. Instead, he said, âYou had me as soon as you put up your definition.â Why? âBecause,â he said, âthat exactly described the process that I was going through.â And yet, here he was on that Sunday morning at church kind of completely kind of turning a corner and willing to say, âNo, Iâm willing to follow the truth wherever it leads.â
And that led him to affirming that the Bible is Godâs Word, and now heâs trying to align his beliefs. And of course, that's a journey weâre all on. I have false beliefs right now; I just donât know which ones are false, right? Iâm always trying to correct my mistaken beliefs and make them align with Scripture. And praise the Lord, that was the journey he was on.
Jonathan: Oh, amen. Well, the book is The Deconstruction of Christianity: What It Is, Why Itâs Destructive and How To Respond. Alisa Childers, Tim Barnett, thank you, guys, so much for being on Candid Conversations. Iâve really enjoyed our talk today.
Alisa: Me, too. Thanks so much.
Tim: Yeah, this was a lot of fun. Thanks for having us.
Jonathan: God bless.
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