Episodi
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Is it time to rethink how we approach hiring? The traditional recruitment process often fails to capture the true potential of candidates, relying heavily on outdated methods like résumés and generic job descriptions. In this episode, Will sits down with Brian Glover, Co-founder and CEO of Previewed, to unpack the revolutionary interplay between technology and the recruitment sector. Previewed aims to revolutionize how job seekers connect with potential employers by allowing them to showcase their skills and experiences in a more personalized and impactful way. It leverages cutting-edge technology to create a platform that helps candidates stand out in a competitive job market, ensuring that everyone has a fair shot at landing their dream job. In our conversation, we discuss how the Previewed platform creates an immersive, streamlined, and intelligent solution for recruiters and candidates. Learn about the innovative technology behind Previewed’s platform and how it is revolutionizing the traditional recruitment landscape. Discover the inspiration behind Previewed, its approach to career life-cycle, and how it empowers the candidate. We unpack the company’s skill-based assessment method, the ‘gamification’ of recruitment tools, how Previewed’s platform helps with retention, identifying gaps in a candidate’s skills, and much more. Join us as we explore where AI meets talent acquisition and how it turns purpose into a career with Brian Glover. Tune in now!
Key Points From This Episode:
How he uses prayer and meditation to keep him grounded as an entrepreneur.
Overcoming the mental hurdles of being a founder and business owner.
Previewed’s platform and how it leverages AI to enhance the recruitment process.
Issues in the traditional job search and hiring process that Previewed solves.
Discover why aligning a candidate’s job description with their purpose is so vital.
Reasons for Previewed’s skill-based method and how it assesses candidates.
The benefits of Previewed’s skill-based approach for candidates and recruiters.
Brian shares how his hustler background growing up led him to become an entrepreneur.
Hear about Previewed’s roots and the many challenges he overcame starting it.
Recommendations for budding entrepreneurs and what Brian is currently focusing on.
Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode:
Brian Glover on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/brian-glover-startupfounder/)
Previewed (https://www.previewed.careers)
Will Larry on X (https://x.com/will23larry)
Will Larry on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/william-larry/)
Victoria Guido on X (https://x.com/victori_ousg)
Victoria Guido on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/victorialguido/)
thoughtbot (https://thoughtbot.com)
thoughtbot on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/)
thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot)
Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast (https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/)
Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Email ([email protected])
Support Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots (https://github.com/sponsors/thoughtbot) -
Company culture plays a fundamental role in the success of your organization. Unfortunately, it’s not always clear what methods will lead to optimal outcomes. Top research shows an alarming gap between a company’s stated culture and what employees report about their experience working there. But what if one could harness the power of AI to close this gap? Today on the show, we’re joined by Elie Rashbass, CEO & Co-founder at ScultureAI, a startup developing innovative solutions that shape organizational culture from the ground up. He tells us about the groundbreaking work being done by ScultureAI and how they are leveraging AI to coach everyday interactions between internal staff members and external stakeholders. We discuss the endless interactions that shape company culture, why it matters, and how Elie and his team are helping companies use AI to embed their culture into actualized, organization-wide behavior. To learn more about how AI is used to transform company culture, tune in today!
Key Points From This Episode:
How Elie’s corporate background instilled an appreciation for good company culture.
Co-founding ScultureAI with his father and what led them into the AI startup space.
His father’s experience fostering strong company cultures and his extensive AI research.
The significant gap between what companies say their culture is and what it actually is.
Why company culture matters, from employee well-being to organizational success.
What to consider when selecting and defining your company values.
Common challenges organizations face when implementing company culture.
How ScultureAI is helping companies embed company culture from the ground up.
Their groundbreaking AI-powered behavioral coach and examples of its workflow integration.
Key challenges they’ve encountered working with LLMs and how they’ve addressed these.
What you can expect from the ScultureAI demo and how to get in touch.
An overview of hiring as a potential use case for their behavioral AI coach.
How ScultureAI prioritizes and safeguards user data and privacy.
Overcoming challenges as innovators in the space and advice to other leaders.
Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode:
Elie Rashbass on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/elie-rashbass-cfa-b78631132/)
ScultureAI (https://sculture.ai/)
Donald Sull (https://mitsloan.mit.edu/faculty/directory/donald-sull)
Sami Birnbaum (https://samibirnbaum.com)
Sami Birnbaum on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/samibirnbaum/)
Svenja Schäfer (svenjaschaefer.com)
Svenja Schäfer on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/svenjaschaefer/)
Will Larry on X (https://x.com/will23larry)
Will Larry on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/william-larry/)
Victoria Guido on X (https://x.com/victori_ousg)
Victoria Guido on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/victorialguido/)
thoughtbot (https://thoughtbot.com)
thoughtbot on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/)
thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot)
Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast (https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/)
Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Email ([email protected])
Support Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots (https://github.com/sponsors/thoughtbot) -
Episodi mancanti?
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By addressing the way that families hire, manage, and pay in-home care professionals, Clara Home Care is reimagining the way that home care is delivered in America, and Jon Levinson is at the helm. He joins us today to share his personal experiences with in-home care that led him to research the industry, identify the challenges, and co-found Clara. Hear how Jon was able to draw on his background in product management for TripAdvisor and Uber to pioneer his company, what it was like to develop early iterations of the product, and how all this resulted in creating the first-ever caregiver-specific payroll platform. We touch on finding the appropriate market, creating foundational code, and the importance of setting best practices to support scaling and changing. Jon also describes the critical role of thoughtbot in setting Clara Home Care up for scaling success. To finish, Jon shares some of the exciting opportunities that exist in the realm of care management, and how Clara is already taking advantage of them. Thanks for listening!
Key Points From This Episode:
Introducing Jon Levinson, Co-Founder and CEO at Clara Home Care.
The role of thoughtbot in bringing Clara to life.
A personal experience that led Jon to pioneer Clara Home Care.
Results of researching the specific problems faced in the broader industry.
His background in product management at TripAdvisor, Uber, and more.
The engineer who became his technical co-founder.
Fundraising choices and investment during his early journey.
Three consumer problems that care agencies do not adequately address.
Why using an agency is still beneficial in comparison to hiring independently.
Developing the first version of the product.
Identifying the opportunity to pioneer the first caregiver-specific payroll platform.
The challenge of finding people seeking a caregiving product.
Setting foundational code structured to scale and the role of Thoughtbot in this process.
Reaching a critical mass by building a strong grounding through relationships.
Balancing building the marketplace, solving discovery, and investing in caregiving technology.
Flexible metrics for success in a given marketplace.
Why caregivers still favor agencies over independent work.
Understanding how emotionally taxing the caregiver coordination role can be.
Features that support the relationship with long-term care insurance providers and care management.
Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode:
Jon Levinson on X (https://x.com/levinsonjon)
Jon Levinson on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonlevinson1/)
Jon Levinson Email ([email protected])
Clara Home Care (https://www.clarahomecare.com/)
Clara Home Care on Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/HomeCareNearMe/)
Clara Home Care on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/clarahomecare/)
Thoughtbot (https://thoughtbot.com/)
Will Larry on X (https://x.com/will23larry)
Will Larry on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/william-larry/)
Victoria Guido on X (https://x.com/victori_ousg)
Victoria Guido on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/victorialguido/)
thoughtbot (https://thoughtbot.com)
thoughtbot on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/)
thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot)
Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast (https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/)
Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Email ([email protected])
Support Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots (https://github.com/sponsors/thoughtbot) -
In this episode of Giant Robots Smashing into Other Giant Robots (On Tour!), hosts Sami Birnbaum and Svenja Schäfer are joined by Karishma Gupta, the Founder and CEO of Eslando Circular Fashion. Eslando is a fashion company dedicated to changing the clothing industry through circular economy principles and textile recycling. Its mission is to simplify recycling and ensure compliance with EU regulations by connecting brands, consumers, and recyclers, fostering transparency and efficiency in the fashion industry. In today’s conversation, Karishma delves into her company’s innovative Digital Product Passport and how it’s revolutionizing the fashion and textile industries. We discuss how her company helps the right material get to the right recycler using data and leveraging AI to map the process. Tune in to explore how the circular economy applies to the fashion industry, the current recycling gaps, what motivates fashion brands to be more sustainable, and how Eslando is reducing the carbon footprint of the textile supply chain!
Key Points From This Episode:
Background on Karishma and what led her to start a tech company.
How recycling in fashion differs from other industries that recycle.
An outline of the biggest recycling hurdles facing the fashion industry.
The complex range of materials in clothes and the problems they create.
Karishma’s transition from the fashion industry to founding a tech-based company.
Some of the materials in clothes that are endlessly recyclable.
Details about the Digital Product Passport and what it offers the supply chain.
Benefits and costs of sustainable regulations and solutions for fashion brands.
Ways that Eslando is monetizing its various solutions.
The value proposition the Digital Product Passport offers consumers.
How long it took to create and build a workable prototype.
What Karishma has planned for the future of Eslando Circular Fashion.
Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode:
Karishma Gupta on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/karishma248/)
Karishma Gupta on X (https://x.com/_karishmagupta)
Eslando Circular Fashion (https://www.eslando.com)
Innovate UK (https://www.ukri.org/councils/innovate-uk/)
Carbon13 (https://carbonthirteen.com)
Sami Birnbaum (https://samibirnbaum.com)
Sami Birnbaum on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/samibirnbaum/)
Svenja Schäfer (svenjaschaefer.com)
Svenja Schäfer on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/svenjaschaefer/)
Will Larry on X (https://x.com/will23larry)
Will Larry on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/william-larry/)
Victoria Guido on X (https://x.com/victori_ousg)
Victoria Guido on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/victorialguido/)
thoughtbot (https://thoughtbot.com)
thoughtbot on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/)
thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot)
Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast (https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/)
Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Email ([email protected])
Support Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots (https://github.com/sponsors/thoughtbot) -
Giant Robots On Tour Hosts Sami Birnbaum and Jared Turner introduce Sheng-Hung Lee, a designer, PhD researcher at MIT AgeLab, and board director at the Industrial Designers Society of America. Sheng-Hung shares his journey into design and engineering, emphasizing the importance of interpreting signals in design and the evolving role of designers from problem-solvers to culture shapers. He discusses how designers must now consider broader, systematic issues such as climate change and aging. Sheng-Hung explains that design is a teachable and essential life skill, highlighting the significance of personal experiences and failures in learning design. He elaborates on the concept of signals, explaining that they represent different perspectives and interpretations in design, which are crucial in addressing complex problems.
The conversation shifts to practical design applications and Sheng-Hung's work in smart homes for aging populations. He discusses the integration of various smart systems and the importance of designing for different life stages rather than specific age groups. Jared and Sami also engage Sheng-Hung in discussing the worst and best-designed products, where Sheng-Hung mentions his initial skepticism but eventual appreciation for facial recognition technology.
MIT AgeLab (https://agelab.mit.edu/)
Industrial Designers Society of America (https://www.idsa.org/)
Follow Sheng-Hung Lee on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/shenghunglee/). Visit his website: shenghunglee.com (https://www.shenghunglee.com/).
Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/).
Transcript:
SAMI: Hello again, and this is The Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, the Giant Robots On Tour Series coming to you from Europe, West Asia, and Africa, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Sami Birnbaum.
JARED: And I'm your other host, Jared Turner.
SAMI: If you are wondering, which you might have been for a while now, where are Will or Victoria, well, make sure you find one of our previous podcasts where we introduce the Giant Robots on Tour Series, and you'll understand why you're hearing myself and Jared a little bit more frequently than before. In that podcast, we throw random icebreakers at each other, and we find out that Svenja does not like online banking. And if you haven't listened to our previous podcast with our guest, Ishani, check that out as quick as you can and find out why AI is compared to babies.
Joining us today is Sheng-Hung Lee, a Designer and PhD Researcher at MIT AgeLab and Board Director at the Industrial Designers Society of America. Sheng-Hung, I'm going to level with you. I've done my research. I've done my due diligence on the guests that we have on this podcast, and I'm exhausted.
SHENG-HUNG: [laughs]
SAMI: I've looked through your own website, and I've read as much as I can find about you. And between education, experience, awards, scholarships, there is an incredible amount of things that you're involved in that you get up to. And it really wasn't good for my own self-esteem just to see how much you have going on.
SHENG-HUNG: [laughs]
SAMI: Jared, a question for you first. Bear in mind, the only thing I've ever been awarded is my own driving license. So, our guest, Sheng-Hung, how many awards do you think he has currently listed on his website? Give a guess.
JARED: Oh gosh, I remember looking at the page, and I remember having to scroll.
SAMI: [laughs] Yeah, you had to scroll.
JARED: Let's pick 33.
SAMI: 33. Do you know what? It's not even close. Okay, he's nearly double that. So, he's up at 60 awards that are currently listed. So, we're talking about a guest that you guys do not want to miss. And you want to make sure that you get into this conversation. I always like to go back to the start with my guests. So, everyone has a story. And I'm interested, Sheng-Hung, in your journey and what led you into the world of design and engineering.
SHENG-HUNG: My personal definition of design is, like, decoding signals. So, everything in our lives, like, we have different types of signals. How do we interpret the signal? How do we, like, understand, or perceive different types of signals in our lives? And I feel design is more like...not just creation. It is creation, for sure, but also about curation. I feel like, for me, problem-solving or, like, problem-defining is really interesting. And especially you mentioned, like, my very early stage as a designer, the reason I submitted my work to get an award is because I want to show my problem-solving skill.
And I realize nowadays, like, the problem is too complicated. It's not just about solving problems, right? I mean, I feel design is more bigger than that, especially now most of the problems are systematic and complex. Climate change, right? Like, you think about aging, and you think about all this, like, sustainable issues. I feel like designers, like, for me, starting from problem solver, as engineer, and now more I've become like a translator, curator, or even, like, a culture shaper. How do you shape the culture you want, right?
Especially now, like, AI it's just, like...that really let me rethink about my role as designer, you know, because everyone can have tons of ideas, but the truth is, like, we have so many ideas, but do you know what good taste is about? Do you know what the good qualities of life's about? So, you have to have some personal experiences to really help people to understand or curate the vision in the future.
SAMI: That's really interesting. I struggle to dress my kids in the morning from a design perspective, right? I don't get colors, and I don't understand necessarily how they match and how to get things working. In fact, sometimes I'll dress my kids only to find that my wife has redressed the kids. Things are that bad at home.
Do you think then design is something which can be taught, or is it something, like, innate? Is it something, in your own experiences, that it's kind of part of your nature? So, you see the world differently to someone like myself or Jared sees the world. Or could that be something which we could pick up on, you know, and learn about?
SHENG-HUNG: Yeah, I definitely think design can be teachable. It's skillable. And I feel like, yeah, people talk about this is, like, a hardcore skill. It's a soft skill. No, I think design is a life skill. It's a human skill. So, that includes like, for example, like, yeah, how do you choose the color? How do you choose the clothes for kids? But also about, like, how do you celebrate the quality of lives, right? How do you, like, have better, like, qualities?
And I feel like, I don't know, life skill means, like, team building, creative leadership, knows people, listening to people. And, for me, that's part of design because you're decoding different signals. You understand your life. You perceive different types of noises. Or how do you resonate with other people? And that's a life skill, I think. And I also feel most of the design skills I learned is actually not from school. It's from, like, personal life failure [laughs].
SAMI: That's really interesting. I just want to jump in because I don't know if I fully understand what you mean by signals. Can you just elaborate on that a little bit more? And then, I will bring you back up on personal failures.
SHENG-HUNG: Signal is like different ways of seeing things, right? So, for example, like, if I go to wait in line for a free bagel, right? You share this with your friends. What I see is it's a free bagel. But what my friends see is like, oh, probably, like, I don't need to wait in line and so many challenges. You know, I have to, like, oh, why should I get this? But I see very clearly I want a free bagel. So, these are different. It's the same thing but different message mixed up, right?
And then, for me, I see design, like, it happens every day. It's a life skill. For example, like, I saw the challenges, but what if we think another perspective to rethink about what kind of challenge [inaudible 06:38] or reframe the right questions, right? And all this, like, mixed all together, it feels like it's not just about drawing beautiful sketches or rendering sexy, you know, ideas. It's all about, like, how do you frame these challenges? How do you look at this? Can you see the question from social aspect, from cultural aspect, or you just see this as a solution-driven approach?
JARED: In some cases, I feel, there is an element of subjectivity to the designs, but then we also want to measure the success of a design. Do you have any tips for, like, how you go about putting numbers to what defines success for a particular design?
SHENG-HUNG: This is such a great question, especially now my research focus is really on services, you know, service design, experience design. Like, how do you quantify this, right? For example, three of us we go to the restaurant, and I feel it's really, really great restaurant. And probably some people feel no, that's not really great. And then, how do we quantify this, right?
And then, I feel it's sometimes, like, really by personal preferences. It's hard to measure. Maybe there will be some sort of, like, a principle direction or criteria we can follow, so, for example, service quality metrics or something, like, based on people's life experiences. I feel it's hard to measure, especially now the design challenge the question it's really complicated.
Some people talk about demographic. How do you, like, [inaudible 08:09] design? Like, for example, a participant design process, right? Or, like, inclusiveness. People talk about equity, power, power dynamic. And I think it's less of a measure or quantify. It's more about do you show your respect? Can we be more inclusive in this process? Can we really engage or integrate multiple voices in this design process?
And I feel like that kind of shows the flexibility, also, the real flexibility of the design, not just that, oh, we look for one single solution. Because, most of the time, we actually want to design for a solution, but, actually, I feel now the shift is from we try to build the condition to let people land on this condition and solve the problem. So, in the end, we'll be like, yeah, we landed here, and we can solve the problem together collectively. So, something I feel a little bit different, but that's a great question. It's open-ended. Yeah.
JARED: Yeah. Thank you. There's a lot to think about there. I want to bring it back to failure because this is something I think about a lot in terms of teaching and learning from history versus learning from your own failure.
We have, like, thousands of years of history of failure. You think we have made all the mistakes already, and, oh, it should be easy, right? All we need to do is teach all of the young generation about all of this failure, and then they'll remember not to do it. But in reality, it doesn't really work that way. I find the strength of the argument is oftentimes weak compared to failing yourself and really deeply learning that lesson. I'm curious about your thoughts on that. And then, I'm also curious to hear about some of your, let's call them, best failures.
SHENG-HUNG: I personally feel like people fail. They fail forward, not backward. So, even if you fail, you move a little bit. It depends on how crazy, right, and how fast you fail. It's an iterative process. The reason I say learning from failure because from traditional Asian family, Asian students, right? Probably in the past, I would say I raised my hand. I want to learn, or I ask senior people. I want to learn. But, actually, more than that, it says, "I want to experience. I want to be part of it," right? So, you're not becoming the manager because you learn to become a...no, you're in that position, and you learn to be a manager.
So, I learned that mindset when I worked at IDEO. And one of the senior design directors told me, "No, you should say, 'I want to experience.'" So, that means that you have fully immersed experiences. And one of the best examples for me is that the first two years I worked at IDEO and IDEO Asia, supporting projects in Tokyo, Shanghai, Singapore offices, and sometimes European, like, office work; the first two years, my confidence almost collapsed. I have to collect my confidence. It's so hard because I'm eager to learn so many things. I didn't beat myself. And then, after two years, I met an amazing, like, design mentor. And I started the things I'm good at as product designer, a tangible designer. I start as product-focused and thinking about whole design process.
And then, I start to collect my confidence. And I realized every single project at IDEO or in my life it's a vehicle, you know. And then, you always connect the dots when you're looking backwards. And you realize, oh, this is failure. Let me know what do you mean by client management? What do you mean by, like, teamworking? Because everyone is from so diverse background. And everyone says, "I'm a designer," but they have different interpretation. And how do you communicate it, right? And how do you keep the conversation transparent and also effective, and how do you empower people? And I feel because of that connect the dots process, also, all the things I want to learn, I want to experience it really helps me to grow at the third year or second year in IDEO.
And that really makes me think about, oh, wow, I didn't know. I failed completely. And that's really healthy, for me, because you become very strong. At some point, I started to realize, oh, what do you mean by...what does it mean by design consultancy business? What we can sell. Where's our capacity, our limitation? You know, other than just, oh, everything's, like, imaginative conceptual. I kind of know what happened, and I know the boundary. And I know how can I empower people and also the client.
SAMI: Yeah, embracing failure is a real strength. At thoughtbot, we kind of...if we're developing products and we're, let's say, designing or coding, whether websites or applications, we have this concept of failing fast. So, the faster you can fail, the quicker you can iterate towards the right solution. And that's something which is difficult to embrace because the first time you do it, I want this to be perfect, and I want to build it in the way that it works. But, actually, you'll spend a lot of time trying to get towards that perfection, and it's much better to ship faster, fail faster, and then get towards the solution.
I noticed as well that...well, I read that the one thing you've been recently working on is designed for the aging population, so more specifically, smart homes for the aging populations. Shout out to my parents if they're looking for a smart home. Sorry, mom and dad.
SHENG-HUNG: [laughs]
SAMI: I've always found, especially my generation, so I'm about...I'm not about; I am 32 years [chuckles] old. So yeah, there's always been, like, a big gap between kind of my generation, the way we've engaged with technology products, the way my parents' generation have been able to. And I imagine a future where my kids are running around in VR headsets, and I'm still, you know, using a basic laptop. I would love to know more about your work kind of in this area and designing for a different sector of the population.
SHENG-HUNG: My master thesis and my master project is focused on redesigning, like, smart footwear for aging population, and then that's part of the smart home ecosystem. And I was actually impressed and surprised. It's like most of the sponsors or clients we talk about, like, people [inaudible 14:38] to think about just the product level, so smart like [inaudible 14:43], smart like a door, or smart like, you know, like a bed or a smart, like, alarm clock.
People start to think about how can we integrate all this system together? Because, like, for example, if you bought Amazon, you know, versus Apple and all these different devices, the platform is really a problem because the products cannot communicate with each other. And we want to make sure all the products can communicate and support you, or, like, they can at least receive your data or information to give the appropriate response.
So, the smart home project starts to think about from ideas to become more like platform integration. IKEA is the best example, right? Like, I think two years ago, they talk about, yeah, they launched their first app, right? Everything is, yeah, it seems like, oh, what's the big deal about this, right? No, but you think of this from the intention perspective to actually connect the whole system together because they want to make sure their internal designer, developer they really can think through their own internal system to make sure everything's connected, interconnected, not just, oh, you do a part of this. We sell this to a certain Asian, and it didn't really connect.
So, I feel like when we designed it, it's really from the system perspective to talk about a smart home. And then, regarding of, like, design across [inaudible 16:04] generation, that's really important, actually, because especially now I'm focused on design for retirement. And I shifted to design for longevity. And then, the cool thing about this is, like, we think about our life in terms of age, but, actually, now we need to think about our life in terms of different life stages, different lifestyle.
The book called "Stage (Not Age)", means, like, now we cannot even describe people above 100 years old or 85 years. So, we call them future hood, right? So, like, different life stages. And I feel like that really impacts, as designers, the way we design products or interfaces, right? And it has to evolve with people. When you say, for example, if we have, like, a smart, like, a robot in our home, they have to know your personal routine. And you kind of grow, right? For example, oh, I get older. I move slower, or my mobility is different, and it changes. How does that mean to our product or our smart services?
And I feel like across different generations, it's really thinking about design for different people in different life stages. And that's really important, not just about financial planning or about your future education, family, community, right? Now people are probably thinking about aging in place. My parents just bought a second home. They're thinking about retirement life. And so, these are things that really impact all aspects of life. And I feel like the idea of one solution for all the era is kind of over because we have to think about not just one solution, multiple solution tailor-made for multiple different people in different life stages.
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JARED: And, Sheng-Hung, in one of your articles that I was reading about design for longevity, you sort of say that design for aging isn't just about designing for older people, but rather, I think one of your colleagues asked this question, which I really liked, which is, how can inclusive methods build elegant design solutions that work for all? And I find that a really aspirational goal.
But one of the things, say, at thoughtbot, when they're building a product, so we often talk about targeting a specific niche or a specific user base because then we can really optimize for them. And so, you're designing something that's elegant, and that works for all. It doesn't sound very easy. It sounds like a good challenge. And I'm curious about how do you go about that, and do you have any examples you can you can share?
SHENG-HUNG: Design for all elegantly also seamlessly. Optimize everyone's needs or, like, design process. I feel...because my topic is focused on financial planning, right? And I think about everyone's income level is different. Their investable income asset is also different. We have a different situation, right? Our family issue, the healthcare condition is also different. And I feel like that, also, if we look at this question, we should think about, okay, how do we define design for all, right? Is it universal design, or is it inclusive design?
I think there are definitely some, like, basic or fundamental, like, foundation or criteria we need to meet. Like, for example, human-centered, right? Or, like, we think about accessibility for certain technology. What's the threshold for a certain way of use the technology or product? That could be, like, a universal or, like, basic. Like I said, people's life stages are so different. And can we really make sure our product or interfaces is always dynamic, always change? Design for transformation, right? And I feel the ideas of changing is kind of scaring for most people. Because you don't want to, like, you woke up, and you realize your iPhone just update the whole interfaces, and you suddenly don't know how to use it [laughs]. It changed too dramatically.
What I mean by change is like, it's a gradual integration process. And I feel that's kind of beautiful. Like, for example, the way I use my bicycle, the biking, right? They can ultimately adjust my speed, recharging, or understand my personal preferences. That could be something I think is powerful for future for providing the right solution, yeah. But also, it's a benefit of this, but also, there's downsides. Like, maybe because of that, we all live our own personal bubbles pretty well, right? Like, oh, yeah, yeah, I read a newspaper. No, you read the newspaper that I curated for you. So, somehow, the information started different [laughs]. So, there's a gap, but I don't know. It's very cool. It's very great, great question. I think there's still...I don't have the exact same answer, but I feel that could be potential for now. Yeah.
JARED: Yeah, I really like that. So, it's not just a one-size-fits-all-all, but, like, it's a sort of an elegant transformation over the course of someone's life. We've discussed a few different things like design for longevity. You touched on there, as we were speaking, human-centered design. I know you've made a distinction of humanity-centered design as well, and there's also life-centered design. I wonder if you could give us and our listeners a little rapid-fire explainer of each of them.
SHENG-HUNG: Like, when we talk about human-centered design, right? Like, it's, like, a buzzword. And everyone talks about HCD, and most people think, oh, if you got a post-it note, you're, like, a HCD designer. No, like, what does that mean, right [laughs]? It's very cliché. And they're like, oh, yeah, all these, like, HCD designers bring the post-it notes with Sharpies and go to facilitate tons of workshops, and they sit and know people. And I feel it's more than that, right?
Human-centered is really, like, put yourself, designers, in the shoes of clients, users, customers, and participants to know their needs, their desire and address their pain point. And I think for human-centered design like Don Norman said in his latest book, it's not just about design as a discipline. It also covers, like, politics, covers, like, ethical issue, culture. It's broader. And, for me, the simplest version is, like, you design with care. You design with human temperature. We create technology with human temperature. That means that we're now for this technology to [inaudible 23:13] technology. We know why we need that technology.
So, for example, if you provide the, like, the cell phone to the developing countries, you probably don't want to send, like, the latest cell phone. You want to send them, like, the adequate technology. What I mean by that is like, it's very, like, stereotype, but I'm trying to explain the idea is like, oh, Nokia could be a great option at this point, for example. You can communicate. You don't need, like, crazy, like, AR VR function. You at least can communicate. So, it's adequate. I think that kind of lens is, like, you think about the culture, the needs, economic, social status. And then, you can start to move on and upgrade the devices.
And I feel like life-centered is even broader. It's like, can you design something to the lens of cats, your pets, your animals? So, it's really like, it's really...it sounds a little bit like a speculative design. But the truth is, like, we can shift our perspective to different kinds of species, cross-species, not just focus on human, because everything we design definitely starts from also for a human being. But now life-centered is like, it's longer, broader. And then, for me, it also means like, we just talk about life-centered. It's like, really think through all different stages of life, not just, like, focus on one single age or a single stage, too specific, too narrow. It's, like, broader.
So, when we talk about life-centered design, LCD, we really think about a lot of different systems, framework. What's the model we can follow? You know, so we're also thinking about policy, about power dynamic, government, ethical issues. So, this, I think, like, it's broader, and it's really large. Sometimes it's pretty vague, for sure. We have to use some cases or really think about in different contexts. Context is really important, designed for different contextual knowledges and needs.
SAMI: Yeah, I think that is actually a really helpful understanding. Myself I don't know anything about those concepts, so to kind of get that theoretical understanding and explanation from yourself is really helpful. In a more practical sense, I have a question, which is a very selfish question. The reason it's a selfish question is because I want to know what do you think? When you look at the world through your designer lenses, what do you think is the worst-designed product you've ever seen or come across? And I think I know the answer to this. I think there is a right answer.
While you have a think, I'll share my answer. I don't know if you have this because you said you're based in Boston at the moment. And I'm showing you because we're on camera, but I will describe it to the listeners as well is what they've done with bottles now is when you open, like, a Coke bottle, for example, all other beverages are available...Coke, if you want to sponsor us [laughter], we're happy just to mention you. When you take the bottle cap off, it's now connected to the top of the bottle.
So, someone has decided...now, I understand the reason behind it. They're saying that it's for recycling. So, when you throw your bottle away, make sure the cap goes with the bottle. But someone has sat there, and they've designed the bottles. So, when you take off the cap, it's still connected to the top of the bottle. And countless times, I'm either pouring into a cup or pouring into my mouth. And that cap is getting in the way. So, the liquid kind of goes into that cap, and it spills on me, or it spills on the table. This is an absolute design failure, a catastrophe in my eyes. That's my worst design that I've come across in real life. Do you have anything you can think of that you look at, and you're like, who designed this?
SHENG-HUNG: This is such a great example because I did have similar experiences when I went to Milan Design Week last year. All the plastic bottle is, like, connected. The cap connects with the bottle. And I didn't know that it's on purpose at the very beginning. I thought, how come it's, like, connected? I want to take it out because it's easier for me to drink. And I realized it's not just this one; all of them is the same [laughs]. Yeah, that's a great example.
I think, for me, design for failure adapter, for example, you know, adapter, like dongle, right? Like, we have so many different...this guy HDMI cable, the cable for iPhone, and the magnet for my Apple MacBook Pro. That's painful because you try to find, like, when you go to, like, a talk or a speech or try to present something, I think, for me, the easiest way is, like, AirPlay, right, Wi-Fi or Bluetooth to connect to the projector. But in reality, you always need this HDMI cable. And this guy connects with my Mac. There's some problem. It depends on...now I always bring my adapter with me.
It's just like, we have that [inaudible 28:04] like, you know, it almost, like, very frequently, if we're meeting, you have to show your screen. How can we design less physical but it's user-friendly, right? People use Mac. People use Apple, use, like, Microsoft. How do you design something like a universal adaptable to everyones, just sharing screen? This is what I need. So, I think this could be one bad design, I think, at this moment [laughs].
SAMI: Yeah, that's a great example as well, and so frustrating. And I wonder if it's, like, a money-making scheme, you know, everyone has their own chargers. And that's a way kind of they make some income as well on the side. Jared, what have you seen in the world? What's your pet peeve? What really grinds your gears?
JARED: This was easy for me. It came to me straight away. Any door that has a handle that you can wrap your hand around which signifies it should be pulled that is push. It's just, I mean, what is going on there? It drives me bonkers.
SHENG-HUNG: [laughs]
SAMI: That is brilliant. I think it's only fair if we flip the question, right? And then, we say, what's the best thing you've seen designed, right? There must be something out there where you've gone, "Oh, that is so useful. That makes so much sense. Why haven't we done that until now?" And have you kind of...I guess this is for Sheng-Hung, like, have you got any inspiration from that sort of thing?
SHENG-HUNG: I have to be honest. Like, I really feel like in the past, I'm kind of scared about, like, use your face to unlock your phone. But the more I use it, I feel like, oh my God, this is so convenient. You just look at it. I know it's a bit scary because they have all your biometric data information. I know even you protect under the regular law, but still, I feel like, yeah, it's so seamless connected. And I feel maybe the better answer is like, I feel a great design is, like, to reduce the friction between the transition of devices by devices, right? So, for me, I mean, so interface by interface.
So, when I share the data on my phone, what does that mean? From phone to my computer or phone to other people, right? All the different interfaces changing. The less friction, the better. I feel seamless connected. So, you know, AirDrop, super convenient, photos, videos with people, Mac users. But what does that mean for, like, Windows users, right? And so, every platform has their own, like, spec, or criteria. And I feel if the user can feel the seamless friction between these interfaces, for me, that could be a great design solution.
JARED: I love that answer. And I love that description of reducing friction. It reminds me a little bit of, I think, my favorite book on UX is by Steve Krug, which is "Don't Make Me Think." And it's just all about doing the simplest thing, reducing confusion, overcoming objections, and reducing friction. So, I really love that.
I do have an answer for this one as well. It's a little bit selfish or focused on my own life. So, I have a dog. She's a Welsh Terrier called Rosie. She's just turned one. Whenever we used to go out, you've got to take water for her if it's a hot day. I always used to take a bottle, whether you could unscrew the top or not, I'm not sure, Sami, and, like, a little bowl to put that in, or you use your hands. And, invariably, she's not going to drink all of the water, so you've got waste. You throw that out. The bag gets wet, all of that.
Someone has designed this really cool bottle where the top is actually the bowl. It's an all-in-one. And you press a button; the water goes into the bowl. She drinks. Whatever's left, you press the button again, turn it upright. And the water just flows back in into the rest of the bottle. It's such a simple thing. But, like you say, it just reduces that friction. Anytime a problem no longer exists, manual to automatic cars, fight me, I'm all for it. Well, that's a problem solved. That's less friction. That's beauty in the world.
SAMI: Yeah, I think it's amazing. When you think about these examples, it really brings out how much of an impact design has. So, you can have the best product in the world, but if you don't get that frictionless design, or you don't get that design that's going to really bring that improvement, it's going to be difficult to make that product a success.
And I think there's some, like, when I think about leaders and innovators in this kind of space, so I know you already mentioned IKEA and I think of Apple. And I don't know the answer to this, and maybe our listeners also wonder, like, how do these companies...they seem to keep getting it right. No matter what happens, they seem to set the trends, and they get their design spot-on, and they innovate in that space. How are they so successful in their design?
SHENG-HUNG: I think a recent example is like, you know, like, Apple just recently launched the Vision Pro, right? The XR, the goggles. And put the demo time 30 minutes to get in-store experiences. You're booking the demo time with them, the 30 minutes. For me, I wrote an article about it. It is less about the goggle itself. It is about the whole experiences.
The time you enter the store, right, and then you're waiting there, who guiding you? The Genius Bar people guiding you. You sit down. You have the prescription and your glasses that get measured, scan the QR code, and find the match [inaudible 33:35] pair of goggles that fit your [inaudible 33:37] of your face. And they put it on. They sit on the side, use the iPad to guiding you, and tell personal experiences or stories.
These companies are very design-driven, vision-driven company. They really think about the whole experiences of users, right? And, for me, it's too pricey, for me, the product, obviously, right now. But I have very delightful, positive experiences because of that 30-minute demo. So, I kind of plant the seeds in my heart. Oh, if the second generation or something have discount, I would definitely want to get one for myself. Not really because...it's a great design for sure, but also, the impression I have.
And I feel that really, really, like, make a difference, right? It's tiny. It's very subtle. They can, "No, we don't have, like, demo experiences." They can just purely sell the product. But I think they sell something bigger than just product. Branding user experiences, delightful experiences. And I can really feel that, and that's really powerful in the end.
JARED: Do you think that that sort of level of design is limited to the companies that can afford it like the big names? Like, obviously, there is a cost dedicated to having the time and to putting the resources to that. Is it always just going to be the big players, or are there things we can do to democratize that availability for the startups, for the SMEs?
SHENG-HUNG: I actually think it's about a company's culture. So, another example I would love to share is, like, when we did, like, an inspiration trip in Tokyo, and there's a very famous, like, chain bookstore called Tsutaya bookstore or Tsutaya electrics. So, to my surprise, like, yeah, it's a big bookstore, and we probably think bookstore selling books. No, they're actually selling a lifestyle.
So, for example, like, if I want to buy the book around how to use a camera, right, the way they curate it, it's like, yeah, we do have the books around camera, but also, we'll put the real camera, like, near the book. So, they curate the whole experiences. You flip the book. Oh, this is so cool. Thanks, I want to try it. You probably, in the end, you got both. So, very interesting and also very human-centered, like, retail experiences.
Why did I say culture? Because when I entered the store, I asked for one book I was looking for. The staff came to me, and she bring two books to me. One is the book I want, unpack. And one is the book...it's the same book, but without the plastic cover. It's brand new. And why she brought two books to me because if I want to buy this book, I not only read inside, but also, I can just get the new one with me to check out. And this is so subtle, right? Because they're not just bringing you, like, the sample. They also bring the final product with you.
So, I feel that kind of culture is, like, very strong, customer-centered, think about your needs, think about your next step. So, they kind of plan ahead, and this is so strong message to me. Oh my God, this is such a great design culture, or at least a human-centered culture to think about my needs, my decision-making process. So, I feel connected with that, and I feel like, yes, they have money, but also, like, they really cultivate that culture within the...not just...they also send a message to their customers.
SAMI: I feel like, Sheng-Hung, we could speak to you for hours. I mean, you are opening my world and my eyes to a different world of design. I've got one final question for you before we wrap up that I wanted to cover. I've seen from your website, like, you've personally designed products. So, out of all the products you've either designed yourself or you've been involved with, what would you say, and could you describe for us your favorite product that you've designed yourself?
SHENG-HUNG: I think my favorite product is, like, I help and re-design, like, Shanghai Library Innovation Space that, for me, is OMG. Oh my God. It's crazy. Like, one single team, my side project and collaborate with the full staff, librarian, the leadership team. What is powerful is, like, library for them in Shanghai, it's a local hub to connect the community and also to teach, to learn for the younger generation how to use the space. For sure, most people use that space for, like, self-studying, you know, activity and all this stuff. But, for me, like, it's so impactful because every single change that means a lot of impact because it's a public space.
And also, it's really, really powerful. Like, you think about the decision-making process. You have to think about feasibility, viability, and also desirability, all things to connect together. And it's really hard, not easy process. It took me about a year-long project. And I'm really happy because, in the end, it's really from sketches, concept, prototyping models, all the way they rebuild, modify the design, integrated. And now the new library they build on another area of Shanghai is really based on this model and framework. I'm very happy, and I also feel like, yeah, design can make a positive impact. It's not like a concept. It's real. And it's nice. It's painful, but it's really satisfying, yeah [laughs].
SAMI: That's really cool when you get to a point where you've done something, and then you see people using what you've designed and, like, enjoying that space and benefiting from all that hard work that you've put into. I have to thank you so much for joining us and giving us time today on the Giant Robots On Tour Series of the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast. Our listeners don't know, but you've had about two hours of sleep.
SHENG-HUNG: [laughs] Yeah.
SAMI: So, it's probably time for you to get back into bed yourself. But that is your dedication to us. It's been an incredible episode and an incredible chat. I finally understand why Jared does not like doors. I myself, you will understand if you see me in the street and I'm tearing a bottle cap off of a bottle, you'll understand why. And we need to sort Sheng-Hung out with more adapters with just a single charger for all his devices. If people want to get a hold of you, Sheng-Hung, where's the best place they can reach out after listening to this podcast?
SHENG-HUNG: Yeah, definitely, you can reach out through my personal website portfolio. Yeah, shenghunglee.com. And I'm happy to respond and discuss about design-related topic. Thanks for having me on this podcast. It's very exciting, and hope we can create all the great stuff for our society.
SAMI: Pleasure. There's always a challenge I give to my listeners at the end, and it normally is just please hit that subscribe button. Jared has promised me that he will do a shoey if we can double our subscribers by the end of the series. If you don't know what a shoey is, my only advice to you is do not Google it because you do not want to know.
You can find notes and a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have any questions or comments, you can email us at [email protected].
This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
Thanks for listening. See ya.
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In this episode of the "Giant Robots On Tour" podcast, hosts Sami Birnbaum and Rémy Hannequin interview Dan Clark, the Founder and CEO of MindJam, an innovative platform providing emotional and SEN (Special Educational Needs) support for young people through gaming, game design, and digital skills. Sami shares a personal story about how his mother, an educational psychologist, introduced him to MindJam, highlighting its impact and relevance. Dan explains that MindJam was born out of the need to support young people who feel out of place in traditional educational settings, particularly those with ADHD, autism, and other neurodivergent conditions. By leveraging popular games like Minecraft, MindJam builds trust and engages young people in a medium they enjoy, transforming therapeutic support into a more effective and engaging process.Dan discusses the inception and growth of MindJam, which started during the pandemic when traditional in-person support became impossible. This shift to online sessions via gaming platforms provided a new avenue to connect with young people, enabling them to open up and build trust in a familiar and enjoyable environment. Dan emphasizes that gaming offers numerous benefits, such as enhancing cognitive abilities, fostering social connections, and providing a safe space for expression. Despite the negative stigma around gaming, he points out that it can be a powerful tool for personal development and emotional support. MindJam has grown significantly, now with 110 mentors supporting over 2,000 young people globally, showcasing the scalability and effectiveness of this approach.The conversation also touches on the broader implications and challenges of integrating gaming into therapeutic and educational contexts. Dan highlights the need for societal perception shifts to recognize the positive aspects of gaming, counteracting the negative media portrayal. He underscores the importance of educating parents, educators, and social services about the benefits of gaming and how it can be used constructively. Dan shares inspiring success stories from MindJam, illustrating how gaming can lead to real-world achievements and personal growth.MindJam (https://mindjam.org.uk/)Follw MindJam on Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/MindJamOfficial), LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/mindjam/), or Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/mindjamofficial/).Follow Dan Clark on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/dan-clark-58533220b/).Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/).Transcript: SAMI: Right, we are back again. And this is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, the Giant Robots on Tour series coming to you from Europe, West Asia, and Africa, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host Sami Birnbaum.RÉMY: And I'm your other host, Rémy Hannequin. SAMI: Let's get into it, Rémy. Joining us today is Dan Clark, the Founder and CEO of MindJam, a platform that provides online one-to-one sessions, providing emotional and SEN support for young people through gaming, game design, and digital skills. Dan, full disclosure on this one: so, about a month ago, right? I get an email from my mom. Now [laughs], this email says, "You've got to check this guy out. Go and take a look at MindJam." And I'm thinking, mom, I don't get these emails from you. This is not the normal sort of thing I'd get from my mom on your average weekday. And I know in the past, like, I've told her that I'm kind of doing this podcast thing, and I'm starting to regret, like, telling her this. Like, what is she throwing my way? But I get into some research...and maybe for some context, actually, which is helpful because my mom isn't just doing research for the podcast, my mom's an educational psychologist. So, she's been doing that ever since I can remember. I remember growing up as a kid, and that was, I mean, she assessed me numerous times. And she works, I guess, similar kind of to the children or people that you're working with, people with ADHD, autism, neurodivergent children, just often who are struggling in school and trying to find where they fit. And I start doing my research. I look into it, hit the website, hit your LinkedIn. And I'll be, like, totally honest with you: We were both just blown away by what you are doing. And this is coming not only from me, and I work in the tech industry, and I've got a history of slight gaming addictions, which we might touch on, but also coming from my mom who works on the other side and works with all the local authorities. She does the kind of tribunals that they have to do to try and get people into the right schools and kids into the right schools. And, literally, we were blown away, and I nearly got lost as well on your website. I found some kind of gaming streams that you do, and I feel almost like we missed a trick here, Rémy, because we could have done this podcast on Minecraft. It's such a nice flow, right, when you're streaming. DAN: Yeah, it makes it easier when you've got that distraction there as well. You can just chat about it. Thank you so much for inviting me on. It's a pleasure being here and, yeah, I'm glad you kind of understand what we're doing here. MindJam itself is four years old now. But I was doing things before in the pandemic, similar. But once the pandemic hit, that was the key moment where everything went online for my support with young people. And, suddenly, the light bulb came on, and I was like, this is a way in.You know, there are so many young people that are struggling, lost, feel they're stupid, and don't fit in. Yet, actually, they're amazing. But, you know, a standard way of sitting in front of them going, "Tell me why you can't go to school. Why can't you do this?" you know, it doesn't work. They don't trust that person. They've got trauma. They've been, you know, battered down by education and by health services. And so, to suddenly have someone who comes in and goes, "Oh, so you love Minecraft. Oh, I love Minecraft, too. Let's join in. Let's go in a world." And then, you can build that trust to then go, "How's your week been then?" Or, you know, and start talking, and you're just on the same wavelength. And, for me, it was something as soon as I sort of realized, it was like, this is...of course, this makes perfect sense. And then, I looked and saw nobody else is doing it [laughs]. So, I started off MindJam just on my own. At first, very quickly, we got working with lots of...in the UK, we have local authorities, which is the councils around, so seeing there is a real, you know, thing that they would work with us. So, that was great, to be recognized as actually a real service, rather than just someone playing games with kids. It's like, no, this is real. This really works. And then, it quickly got bigger than me, and now we are at 110 mentors working for us, and we're supporting over 2,000 young people all over the world. SAMI: That's incredible. DAN: It's a mission of mine, you know, we'll go more into my sort of history, but I've got two neurodivergent children: both autistic, one's ADHD as well. When you see something that you think is going to work for your child, to then suddenly see it's got, like, a two-year waiting list, which most have, it's heartbreaking, and you know it's going to be too late. So, it's always been my mission with MindJam to keep that waiting list as small as I can, but also, obviously, expanding with quality mentors and all that. So, you know, we generally tend to always say about three months before we can sort of get that support for young people. But yeah, it's something very close to my heart that I'm so passionate about and, yeah, it's been a great journey so far. SAMI: You can tell. It's so interesting because, like you say, when you find something that works for your kids. Because when I was younger, I struggled with separation anxiety a lot in school. So, I would have days when I would really struggle to go to school. During my high school period, I went to the Royal Free, which is down in Hampstead, so not too far from where I grew up and not too far from my school. And my parents...I tried to engage with a therapist. But it's almost like, I don't know if I wasn't cognitively or intellectually developed enough to engage in that way, but it didn't work. Ultimately, I did kind of one or two sessions. I remember filling in some questionnaire and thinking, like, I don't get this. This doesn't make sense. And what you're talking about, if I understand correctly, is you're coming to where the child is at. You're coming to a safe space for them, a place where they feel comfortable. It's almost like a world which is predictable. Whereas the outside world is very scary, right? Especially for people who have generalized anxiety disorder, like I said, autism. It's very challenging. And so, you come to their level, and you say, "Right, let's find a place where we all feel comfortable." And then, we can start to engage. And you say, like, you know, the pandemic was a little bit of a light bulb moment. What's been the biggest barrier then? So, you've found yourself kind of going into this and saying, right, this is something which works. It works for my kids. I want to make this available, accessible. What's been your biggest barrier to getting this off the ground and getting it working? DAN: It's the negative thoughts and the way the media portrays and education portrays gaming, basically. That has been the hardest thing is most parents are on board, but they still feel a little bit ashamed of how social media is on gaming and screen time. And they're very worried that they're not doing the right thing. And we come in a way of also educating. We educate the educators. We do training plans for schools, and for social services, and all sorts because there are so many benefits to gaming that aren't recognized. And, you know, gaming is still generally quite new. It's evolved so much in the last even 10 years. It's insane the way the characters have evolved. And the emotional nature of games now is really complex and, you know, young people and older people can get so much from them. But gaming still, in general, people are still like, "Well, get off that. Do something actually worthwhile." It's like, it's so worthwhile. There's so much, you know, strategy game you've got so much from it. And a fast-paced shooting you've got cognitive abilities. The perfect example I've got is, did you hear a couple of months ago a young lad, I think he was 13, he beat Tetris. SAMI: Yes.DAN: He completed Tetris, which is incredible, you know, it's like, oh, wow. And the first thing the newsreader said to them, the media person interviewing him went, "You should get out more." That's the way she portrayed it, rather than going, "What an achievement it is. You should get outside more." I'm literally like, what? What's going on? You know, again, this kid, you know, he's in the Guinness World of Records. What an achievement. He's famous around the world for doing it. It's like, why is that not seen as such a good thing? You know, so yeah, so that was the hard thing was especially schools, you know, they're very frightened of gaming and of change. And so, trying to help them see that, actually, if you meet a young person where they're at in something they love, then you can help inspire them and help find out why they can't deal with the things, why they can't engage with school, and also inspire them for future learning careers. Even healthy gaming comes from having that understanding of how they're gaming.So, if someone's sat up all night gaming, yeah, we all know it's not great for them. But if you just say, "Gaming's evil. Get off it. You're wasting your time. I'm turning that off," they're going to want to rebel against that. Yet if you come in and go, "Oh, wow, I can see why you were sat up all night doing that. But have you noticed that you're not as good at playing when you're really tired or really hungry?" And if you look at the top e-sports players, they're athletes. They exercise; they eat well; they sleep well. So, you know, if you embrace gaming a bit more, you can get that trust and that bond to then help inspire in other ways. RÉMY: I mean, I could talk about it for a long time. It's really refreshing to hear someone talk about video games in such a positive way and talking about the benefits. And you even mentioned strong players like athletes. It's really refreshing. And I'm wondering, how did this knowledge come up to you in the first place? So, I bet you might be someone enjoying playing games yourself. But how did you see all these benefits yourself? Because, unfortunately, it's not something we talk a lot about. As you mentioned, in the press, we hear about all the negativity. Every time there is a strong event, we blame video games, all that. And we forgot all the stories where the video games enhance people, if they have trouble or not. It can be very beneficial to a lot of people. So, how did you see this value yourself? DAN: Yeah, well, yeah, I've always been a gamer, you know, ever since Spectrum 48K, I think you had. I'm showing my age now, but it was mainly when the Sega Megadrive, and from then, PlayStation onwards were my days. And me and my brother used to have great times together on that as well. You know, it was our bonding. But then I think the biggest light bulb to me...before the pandemic, I was a teacher. And I used to teach music and ICT and computers as well, and having my children as well, and both in school connecting with the young people.Because I was a gamer, I could talk about the games that they're playing with them and to see their eyes light up...and you're on a different wavelength with that young person. They suddenly got this trust in you, and they want to tell you all about what they've done on Minecraft, or what the new season of Fortnite's about. And it was having such a beneficial effect on them and same with my family as well. We, you know, both my children are autistic, and we've got, you know, we have a lot of difficulties around that of bonding together as a family, yet our closest moments have been through gaming together. So, Mario 3D World was the first one I remember with my children playing, and we could play at all levels. So, my son was about four and, you know, he was often in a bubble, killed, and floating back onto the screen again. But, you know, we had a great time. And I was suddenly, like, looking, thinking, this is amazing. You know, nobody hears about this side of it that it's bringing us together. And so, from there, I then started doing after-school gaming clubs, so not coding clubs, nothing like that. It was gaming. And the young people they loved it. It was oversubscribed. Masses of kids came to it. We had all sorts of things from Super Smash Bros, if you know that, to, you know, to PlayStation games, Go Simulator, and everything playing. And we just had a whale of a time, and they could really relax and make friends. And, again, it was all coming from the joy of gaming together, basically. And it's, you know, as much as some people might not like it, it's bigger and bigger. It's the biggest entertainment industry now. And, you know, on the other side of it, there are so many careers in it. If your young person has an interest in gaming, see what they're interested, help it, champion it because it's, yeah, you know, there's such a future there. But yeah, that's my story, basically, and where that sort of light bulb came from. And then, I've done a lot of research into the benefits of gaming and how you can use that for connecting with young people. And, you know, so many games now have characters with, you know, emotional things going off, or, you know, you can talk about feelings even in games like Minecraft where the characters don't talk. But you can be like, how must that person be feeling there? And, you know, you can really bring in real-life situations while gaming and also have a lot of fun, which I think is super important as well, which sometimes gets forgotten about. But, you know, real life is really enhanced by having loads of fun, and gaming's fun.SAMI: Yeah. It's so fascinating. As you're speaking, I'm having this internal dilemma, right? Because, in my head, everything you're saying is true and makes sense. And I believe it, and I've seen it. And then, I probably still harbor those feelings that are almost entrenched, like you're saying, in the media with, you know, the person who completed Tetris. And those sorts of feelings are still, like, a little bit entrenched to me in terms of the negative sides of gaming. Like, I guess I grew up probably similar to you, where it was like, "Well, why aren't you outside more?" and the negative aspect of it. I spoke about this in a different podcast, which I've apologized to my parents for mentioning in public. But when I was in university, it's too late now, I also kind of developed, I would call it probably, like, a small gaming addiction. I don't know where it would sit, but I was doing all-nighters Playing Call of Duty, Modern Warfare. And so, there definitely is a negative side. But I like what you say about, well, actually, you can address that in a healthy way. But then, this week, just this week, which is quite uncanny, my seven-year-old comes, and he says, "Daddy, I really want to get an Xbox, you know, my friend's got one." And he's just starting to get to that cusp of gaming. So, in my head, I say, yeah, like that makes total sense, and I imagine the benefits and the fun time me and him could have on an Xbox. But I still struggle with those feelings of...maybe they're my own worries of, well, but what if he neglects his other stuff? What if he goes into like, yeah, with ADHD, he goes into hyperfocus, and that's all he does? How [laughs] can you counsel me out of this concern? DAN: Well, no, I completely understand, and that is where all our fears come from, especially our generation and how it's put through. But I think young people more and more connect through gaming, whereas I think when we were gamers as young, a lot of stuff wasn't online. So, we weren't playing with our friends. We were playing on our own a lot of the time, whereas it's very social now. Platforms like Roblox and Minecraft are the things that are super social, working together as a team, things like that.But also screen time, I can show you that we've got a whole list of benefits of gaming, actually, that I'll share with you because there's studies that even screen time has been proven not to be detrimental the way we're told it is. And I think we must know that through how we work. Most of us work on screens these days, so.SAMI: Yeah, that's such a point of contention in the house because we currently do only on Fridays. So, they get, like, two hours of screen time. I don't know if that's strict. I don't know where I am on that. Do you have, like, with your own kids, or how do you handle that discipline? So, let's say I get the console, right? I bring it into the house to my seven-year-old. Do I limit it with screen time? How would you approach that sort of thing? DAN: Obviously, with a seven-year-old, it's a little bit different from...mine are now 17 and 14. So, we discuss it more, but yeah, definitely, you know, have boundaries. And also, if you're worried about how they're gaming, maybe have the Xbox in the living room, so instead of gaming in their bedroom, they're gaming when you're around, and it's a shared family activity. And then, it's easier to say, "Well, we're going to be having food in a minute. So, finish up on that game." And you can have all that understanding.But I think also, you know, that other side of things of coming from seeing what they're playing. I talk to parents a lot about this, and they get, you know, they see frustrations in their young people when they're trying to get them off. But they don't realize that maybe they're playing something like Fortnite or something that's a bit more online team-based, where if they pulled them off the game in the middle of the match, it could be detrimental to the team they're working with, their rankings. You know, they could even get banned from the game for a few days, you know.So, understanding and them being able to work time management together, being like, "Well, after this game is finished, this is where we're going, you know, we've got to go out. We've got to do this," you know, there is a give and take there. And I'm not saying there isn't negatives to gaming. We need, you know, everybody needs a break as well. But, again, through the understanding of what they're playing, you can have those conversations. If you're not playing them or watching them and don't understand what the game is about, and what the joy is about, there's going to be a gap between you, you know, where the young person is going to be like, "You don't understand me. You don't understand why I want to play this." My kids, you know, we went from the other [inaudible 17:37] because they've had severe problems at school, both of them, through their neurodivergency, and gaming has really helped them both to regulate. And maybe when you're saying about yourself when you had problems, and maybe there was something else going on. And then, the gaming was a way for you to cope, that safe space to go to that was actually working in a way as a little bit of therapy and keeping you grounded, you know, as well. So, you know, there's two sides to see it. But yeah, definitely, I can understand the worries of staying up all night playing it or not doing your homework and playing it, although I have different things to say about homework. But to say it's not actually beneficial is wrong because, you know, you just got to look at something like Minecraft and the amount a young person can learn, everything from biomes, and blocks, and diamonds, or ores to actual mathematics and things. And it naturally leads onto PCs and learning how to code things and who knows where that's going to lead, to creating something completely new. So, I worry for the ones that are heavily restricted on screen time. I worry that they're being held a little bit back. You know, that might sound a bit controversial for some people. But when most jobs are digital and you're not allowed to learn, I mean, the young people I see they're so gifted at such a young age in understanding digital things that they're going to be at the forefront of the new technology. So, it's almost like, yeah, I think it should be embraced with both hands. RÉMY: There's an incredible opportunity to learn new things through video games and to be happy and to share, like you said. And I bet our audience is already quite open to video games, but we never know it. I think it could be interesting if you could provide, like, a very simple, not comprehensive list of famous games and the kind of skills and benefits they provide you. You mentioned Minecraft; you mentioned creativity. But what kind of games and skills benefits you? You could say for our audience to understand more about the opportunity that is out there. DAN: Yeah, I mean, there are so many. But yeah, so, if we look at your normal shooter game like Call of Duty, and Fortnite, and things like that, that is for cognitive ability. You know, getting those dexterity in your hands and learning those [inaudible 20:11] of pressing buttons is more than you think. It's really training that brain and getting that brain working really quick. It's proven to boost your brain power, your gray matter. It's actually proven that gaming, in general, just boosts your gray matter.I mean, we all know about doing brain training games, but all games using that brain, you know, it's much more advanced than sitting watching TV. But then if you go into more things like puzzle games, so things from your Tetris all the way through to more advanced ones like Portal or strategy games like Civilization and things, there is so much you're doing. You're boosting that brainpower, and you're thinking all the time. But then you can get into...yeah, back onto the shooter games as well, they help with spatial recognition. So, it's actually helping to spot things from a distance: dangers or things to collect. You can see them, and it actually enhances eyesight. It is proven to enhance eyesight, which is great. Decision-making and leadership skills, which is a key thing people talk about for business, is all there when you're in your team of shooters. You're playing Overwatch or you're playing, you know, any game like that. You know, there's always somebody leading or, you know, saying what should be best, seeing the best strategies in there.Problem-solving comes into all sorts so, obviously, in shooters and things again, I'd- say, but also your Minecraft. You know, you've got to create a certain thing to defeat the dragon or whatever you're doing. There's always something, or if you're building something. But then, of course, your high-end puzzle games and even things like Mario. I mean, they get so complex in the problem-solving to overcome a level. Again, the brain power, and the brain power seeing these young people that they're way more advanced than we were playing games. The games are so intricate and so hard now. One you never hear about is social skills until...I think the pandemic helped that a bit. People started to see, oh, Animal Crossing, it's a great way to connect with people. And, you know, and Roblox as much as it gets a lot of bad press, for young people to connect and play, and lot of it is almost like playground role playing play, and they're playing together. You know, there's games just based in Ikea, and they're shopping, and [laughs] things like that. It's really good for them to be doing that. And health and fitness surprisingly, of course, is in gaming. So, obviously, a lot of Nintendo Switch games are sort of standing up, you know, playing switch sports and things, but then virtual reality is huge for that. And if you've ever tried Beat Saber, that's a real workout, which is really good. But there's loads of boxing ones. There's one that kids play now called Gorilla Tag, where, oh my God, that is such a workout. I have mentees that I work with, and then we'll be like, "Oh, Gorilla Tag," an hour of that, I am exhausted. Because you're just flinging your arms around like a gorilla trying to move fast. It's amazing. SAMI: I saw a post you did recently about there's, like, a Greek mythology level on Fortnite, like, an educational aspect [laughs]. It's so funny because I remember playing God of War on the PS2, and I learned so much about Greek mythology. Everything I know comes from God of War. And so, there's also that educational aspect.DAN: Yeah, exactly. You get this deep dive into something, and you really find what you're interested in. So, I've got a kid, and he loves this game called War Thunder, which is all about planes, World War planes, and he can tell me everything about every plane and what country it's made. He can spot it a mile off. You know, "Oh, that's a Russian plane from so and so. Its weak points are here. It was built by so and so." And it's like, you're a genius, and it's all come from, you know, this game's sparked this real interest.And, you know, like I said, Fortnite brings it in, God of War, of course. Assassin's Creed is amazing for things like that, history, it goes from Egypt times. And they even now have walkthroughs in the game where...this needs to be used in schools. I don't know if schools embrace it yet, but you don't have any of this story and the killings and stuff. You just are going through history and walking through the towns and things like that, which is brilliant. The latest one for Assassin's Creed was Vikings, wasn't it? And that was brilliant because that brought in the UK and how it was when the Vikings came over. There's so much stuff. I've got a young person, and he loves this game called For Honor, which is all about medieval sword fights. And he got such an interest in weapons that he's then become a blacksmith. He's enrolled onto a college course apprenticeship being a blacksmith. He wants to be making armory and swords for movies. You know, he said like, "Look, Lord of the Rings, that's all made properly, isn't it?" I mean, that's [inaudible 24:50] SAMI: Wow.DAN: Yeah, it's amazing. One other thing that the games bring, which I think is amazing, is mindfulness as well. There's a huge thing of that. Yeah, like I said, going back to maybe yourself when you were gaming at night, and you maybe needed to destress and maybe take your mind off something, you can get into a game and almost...there's a thing called the grind in the game. Minecraft has it a lot, where you've just got to get yourself a hundred diamonds, or whatever [laughs]. So, it's like, you can almost turn your brain off and just do that, you know, and it can be so super relaxing. And you can get into this thing called flow state. A lot of driving games are like that. If you hit every corner perfectly, you're kind of just in this dream-like state where you just...everything's going well. And that brings a euphoria, too. There's so many good things.But now there's loads of games that are actually based around mindfulness. Tetris is one that's been proven for that. But I don't know if you've heard a more recent one called PowerWash Simulator. Now, this game was one of my most favorite for the last couple of years. All you're doing is washing stuff with a power washer. But the way it works, it gives you a little ding when you've cleaned something properly, like a [vocalization]. And it just...you stand back and look at your job. Honestly, it's amazing. But now Oxford University are doing a full study on it because they realize how beneficial it is to relaxing and chilling out, you know, and just making yourself just feeling happy when you need to just de-stress. It's amazing. RÉMY: I can totally relate. I remember a few years ago, I played GTA 5, and GTA 5 is the kind of game famous for arbitrary violence or all this kind of stuff we hear in the media. But I remember me playing and sometimes I wanted to play just to take a bike and to go on the road and to see a sunset. And, of course, we could argue that I can see the sunset out there, but, in a game, it's just a piece of art. At work, recently, we just had a conversation about beautiful games. So, we weren't interested in all the features or how the game would work but just how beautiful it is. And sometimes we just play video games because they're beautiful. And so, they could provide so much on the intellectual level, on the skills, but also, just as piece of art, just beautiful things made by beautiful artists. DAN: Yeah, it is amazing when you see that. And yeah, I get that completely with GTA. It gets a lot of bad reputation, you know, and story-wise, it is very adult. But, you know, it's the biggest game in the world for a reason. And, you know, like you said, you climb the mountain, you look at the view, you know, it is such a lovely thing to do.There was a game, Red Dead Redemption. I had a young lady I was mentoring, and she was situationally mute, which means, you know, she couldn't talk to anybody. She used to type her responses to me. But she loved Red Dead Redemption, loved horses. And she actually created a group from all around the world, where they would all meet her on a Friday in the game, and she would take them on horse trails. And so, this is all in the game, and she would just take them around to beautiful spots, do nice little jumps with the horses, setting up camp, you know, and, I mean, that's [inaudible 28:08]. It's amazing. And yeah, she ended up making a horse game on Roblox, and that doing really well, and her actually working for Roblox themselves. So, yeah, you know, it all inspires them to work on that. And, I think, sorry, I'm going on tangents here, but also, as you say, appreciating art. There are so many different sides to gaming. A lot of people used to think gaming is just coding, and I don't want to be a coder. That's confusing. I don't want to do that. If you look at the credits that roll on a main game, and they go on for, like, about an hour. There are so many different jobs from artists, storyboard writers, level designers, musicians. There's everything there. The coders are just one part of it. So, as I said before, there are so many career opportunities there, either starting up your own business as a self-employed person or getting involved in it. One I love...a lot of the neurodivergent people I work with [inaudible 29:07] is being a games tester. Because the first thing my son ever does is, if he gets a game, he tries to break it. He tries to find where he can walk through a wall, or something like that. So, it's like that job would be ideal for you. It's like, it's amazing. And that's a job. That's a really important job as well. SAMI: Yeah. When you talk about these stories, they are inspirational. Like, I feel like almost, like, a flutter in my heart as you talk about this kid who maybe felt he has kind of no hope or very little opportunities to actually honing in on this Viking game and then being able to go and become a blacksmith, or this other person you mentioned who's now with Roblox. Yeah, I almost wish, like, they had more publicity around them. And maybe we're kind of doing some of that work now. What would you say is your biggest success story? DAN: I guess MindJam in itself I think is just, I mean, it's way bigger than me now. Obviously, it was born from this idea of giving young people the time and the respect. They are doing something that they love to do and is beneficial. That's what I found was everybody...even when I was teaching, we used to have this connection with the kids, and I used to work one-to-one with the, you know, special education needs, young ones. And a great connection talking about gaming, and their eyes would light up. They would talk about their week, and how they were feeling, and what they achieved.But then it would always be, in the back of my mind, we need to get back onto what we're supposed to be doing and, you know, I need to tick these boxes. And there's always something wanted from them. And it's the same if they go and see a health service. There's always something that they want from that young person. Yet if you just approach them and say, "You know, let's do what you want to do." It's child-led. It's low demand, and let's see where that takes us. That's where we got to discovering about the blacksmith thing. And that's why we've got young people making albums and things with MindJam. You know, it goes anywhere. I've got one young person who shows me Tai Chi, you know, that's our MindJam session. It started off from Rocket League. So, it can really go anywhere. But yeah, sorry, going back to the big success, it is every day now I get a message saying how one of my mentors has helped a young person to help the whole family. That is just the best thing in the world. You know, this is something we've created, and we work hard. We work really hard to make sure we've got the best people. You know, and we're well-trained, and informed, and everything. To hear that it's really making such a difference, and, you know, some people say we're saving lives, and, you know, I just have to pinch myself. Me and my wife we were just like, we can't believe it really how amazing it is. But we're just on a mission now to make sure it's accessible for as many people who need it. SAMI: Yeah, I've seen some of the reviews on your website, and they're heartwarming. But, like, it kind of makes sense, right? Like, for some people, this is the only place that they feel safe. They feel comfortable. You imagine all the cortisol that's going through someone when they're in that fight or flight moment, and there's lots of stress and anxiety. And they enter into a gaming world, and they can escape. And all of a sudden, that reduces. You're dealing with a different person. You're dealing with someone who feels happy, who feels content. And then, you're opening up their mind to have other conversations, you know, like you say. I really recommend it to our listeners. Go and check out the stream. You do kind of...I've seen you've done a few episodes of streaming with other mentors. And it's fascinating to see how all of you, whilst you're playing, are in a conversation about, "Oh, how was your week? And how's that been going?" And, you know, something happened over there. And it's like, you're just in a more of a relaxed state to have those conversations. DAN: Yeah, you know, it's been used before, you know, LEGO therapy is kind of like that. You know, that's what MindJam is in a way is play therapy, but there's so much more you can do with the digital platform. And we're at an amazing age as well, where most bits of software are free. I'll click on like, you know, if they want to look into 3D modeling, it's easy to get a copy of Blender. If you want to get into Unity or Unreal Engine, I mean, there's always into...and it's all, you know, what a wonderful time. When we were younger, if I wanted to get into game design, it was so complicated. You didn't know where to start where, you know, so yeah, it's really amazing.And another thing that I love as well is the mentors that work for us. Most of them are really [inaudible 33:28]. I struggled when I was in my early twenties, and I remember seeing a counselor. And it felt like they had no idea what they were...yeah, they're reading from a textbook, you know, and I remember just really patronizing me. And I was just like, you've got no clue. Whereas I think all the mentors we have all said, "I wish MindJam was around when I was a young person." And I thought, that's the key thing for me, their empathy, their understanding. We don't have to solve it straight away. It's just being there and going, "Yeah, that is hard. Yeah, you know, you'll be okay though. And there's, you know, you're not on your own here." And, you know, I think that is...so many people seem to have to try and heal people straight away. And it's like, no, people just need time to talk, and it's the same as adults as well. Yeah, it could just carry on really to all ages really, couldn't it? SAMI: Yeah. And you've also got that buy-in, right? Whereas, you know, I think of myself perhaps going to therapy at that young age. I didn't really buy into it because I was sitting there with an adult who I didn't really know what we were doing. And I was just kind of there for a conversation. And here you've got...you're doing something that they like, and they enjoy. To put my parent and adult hat back on [laughs] because it's something I want to pick your brains on, right? So, working in the tech industry and working in coding, I've read articles about games, which kind of it says that they're more and more...you see it maybe more on the games on the mobile phone. So, they're employing, like, these kind of gambling tactics, so a lot of the stuff where it's treasure chests. And what is it? On Fortnite, it's the packs. On FIFA, it's also, like, you open up the pack and you see what players you get. So, that sort of stuff I also find scary where I feel like you have from the industry...so, whilst you're using the industry in this way, is the industry itself there to promote and perpetuate the benefits that come from games? Or are they looking, I want to get people in; I want to get them hooked; I want to use these gambling techniques, A/B testing, whatever it is? DAN: From all big companies, we get both sides, obviously. So, you got your unscrupulous ones that, oh, go for it. You loot boxes. But I think more and more, especially with young people, they're more and more aware. They're far more savvy than we are in these things. And the good one is EA with, you know, FIFA. They get review bombed because as soon as someone's putting in loot boxes and things, people are just like, you're just after our money. This is a con. It's pay to win. Mobile games are the worst for it, of course. You know, they're quick cash-making things. Again, instead of, like, saying, "All gaming is evil. We should never do it," it's being aware and being aware of what these games are trying to do, which, again, when you're looking at a young child, is having shared gaming experiences. So, you can go, "Ah, can you see what they're doing here? You know, they've hooked us in. We've played this for two minutes, and we've had free play. And now they're asking us to pay five pounds for extra things. That's a bit of a con, isn't it?" And, you know, you can actually bring that awareness, and then they're not going to fall for things like that.But at the other side of it, I see firsthand...I've luckily enough to work closely with Sony. One of their great companies is called Media Molecule. I don't know if you've heard of them. They did LittleBigPlanet, and lately, they had a game called Dreams, which is actually making games on a PlayStation, which is really cool. But they're so accessible. It's all about, you know, making everybody happy, giving people the keys to creativity, and really help making everything accessible.Again, they worked with this wonderful, wonderful artist who created characters, character designs. They'd never met her. She was so socially anxious. She never could leave her house but was actually one of their top artists that they would send the work, send the brief. She'd send this amazing art back, and then they'd pay her. They didn't have to come into the office nine till five for no reason whatsoever. And there's a lovely side, and, of course, there's a business unscrupulous side. And yeah, again, bring that education of that. This is what I think should be in schools. Instead of avoiding the whole issue, is actually talk about being toxic gamers and what that means, and how to deal with toxic gamers, and how not to be a toxic gamer yourself. For those that don't know toxic gamers, it's just people that are really, really mean to everybody, which seems to be a set thing that people do, especially to a new player. It's like, learn how to encourage people in. And there's now games coming out where they ban people straight away if they're being toxic, and it's all about helping that new player feel like part of the team.But again, yeah, let's say if this was actually brought into education, so then we learn about loot boxes and, you know, pay-to-win type games, then young people would be on that same wavelength. They would get it, either that or it would make gaming so lame that no one would play gaming anymore because it's in schools [laughs]. Like, oh, it sucks now [laughs]. SAMI: Yeah, I think that that way that you embrace kind of what gaming is and you say, well, actually, we can see that it's got a benefit. We can see that it's positive. How do we get the absolute most out of this? How can we not hide, stick our heads in the sand to the issues that might be there? And how can we then say, "Let's use this?" And I think, I mean, my mom will be listening to this podcast for sure. But I think it's something which it's quite disruptive what you're doing. I really do feel that way kind of dabbling in gaming, working as a consultant in the coding industry. I actually teach neurodivergent kids as well on the side. And I'm actually mentoring another kid in coding as well. And what you're doing, as I said at the beginning, it's mind-blowing, and we could talk to you for hours.We have a little chat on this podcast, which listeners can't see. And I asked Rémy, like, "Do you have any questions before you want to wrap up?" And Rémy was just like, "I just want to keep listening. I'm loving it." And I'm exactly...I feel like we can listen to...I think me and Rémy game and we dabble here and there as well ourselves. So, it's definitely something which speaks to us so much. But I've got to thank you so much for your time, for taking the time to jump on with us, give us such an insight into the work that you're doing with MindJam. Let's talk about the BAFTA Young Game Designers Award Ceremony Open Day. Give us some info. DAN: Oh yeah. Well, this is a lovely thing. I've luckily enough to be involved with BAFTA on this for a few years. An early success of MindJam was I was nominated as Mentor of The Year and finalist for Mentor of The Year for BAFTA in 2021. And they run this thing called Young Games Designers every year, and it's brilliant because they do...it's two sides to it. One is actually making a game, but then, of course, not all young people are ready to make a game. And, you know, so the other side is a games concept where you could just send in sketches, ideas, things like that. And that's really accessible for lots of young people we work with, of course. But yeah, in July, I don't have the date; it's early July, we have the award ceremony, which is on this Saturday. But then on the Sunday at BAFTA in London, it's an open day for families to come. You have to apply and get a ticket. I'm sure you guys can put the link on here later on. But yeah, MindJam will be there, but there's loads of game places. I think TT Games will be there who make the LEGO games. And there's all sorts of...we have D&D there. We have all sorts and talks on how to get into the industry and things like that. So, it's really a great thing to come to if you're a young person who's interested in gaming. SAMI: That's really cool. So, parents, if you're listening, save up all that screen time so you can use it. A month's worth of screen time [chuckles] at the BAFTA Awards, Young Game Designers Awards Ceremony in the Open Day in London. If people want to get hold of you, Dan, where's the best place? They've heard this. They're inspired. They feel like they've got someone who would benefit from your services. Where's the best place to get in touch? DAN: If you go to our website, it's mindjam.org.uk, and you can email us at [email protected]. And I think you said this podcast is international, isn't it? So, we do offer sessions all around the world. We have mentors in America, in Australia, in Japan, all over the place basically. MindJam is universal. So, wherever you are, get in touch. And if you're interested in being a mentor as well, get in touch as well, so...SAMI: Definitely, I highly recommend. And I've already got people I can think of that I'm going to be passing your details on to. Listeners, listeners, listeners, our lovely listeners, no one likes missing out on things. Remember that flight you missed? The train that passed you by? Your partner's birthday? I've been there, by the way; I missed one recently. It's a horrible feeling. I cannot deal with you missing out on these things, but I can make sure that this feeling doesn't come about when it comes to our podcast. So, move your thumb. Yes, you, move your thumb. Hit that subscribe button. I can guarantee you, you will never miss one of our podcasts. And you'll hear amazing guests, just like Dan, as we get them in, and we have great chats together on the Giant Robots on Tour podcast. You can find notes and a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, you can email us at [email protected]. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Check her out at mandymoore.tech. Thanks for listening. See you next time. Bye. AD:Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us.More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at: [email protected] with any questions.
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In the latest episode of the "Giant Robots On Tour" podcast, hosts Rémy Hannequin and Sami Birnbaum welcome Marc G. Gauthier, a solopreneur and startup coach, who shares his journey from software development to becoming the founder and developer of The Shadow Boxing App. Marc describes how his interest in software engineering began at a young age with QBasic and evolved through various leadership roles at companies like Drivy (now Getaround) and Back Market. His early passion for gaming led him to learn coding, and over time, he naturally transitioned into management roles, finding excitement in organizing and leading teams while maintaining his love for building products.
During the episode, Marc discusses the challenges and intricacies of scaling startups, emphasizing the importance of balancing speed and reliability in software development. He recounts his experiences in leadership positions, where he faced the dual task of managing rapid team growth and maintaining software efficiency. Marc also shares insights into the startup ecosystem, noting that most startups struggle to achieve success due to a combination of market timing, team dynamics, and resource management. His own venture, The Shadow Boxing App, represents his attempt to return to hands-on coding while leveraging his extensive experience in startup coaching and advising.
Marc also touches on the role of AI in the future of software development, expressing cautious optimism about its potential to augment human workflows and automate repetitive tasks. He advises current and aspiring developers to embrace AI as a tool to enhance their capabilities rather than a replacement for human ingenuity. Marc concludes by highlighting the importance of realistic expectations in the startup world and the need for continuous learning and adaptation in the ever-evolving tech landscape.
Getaround (https://getaround.com/)
Follow Getaround on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/getaround/), Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/getaround), X (https://twitter.com/getaround), YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/getaround), or Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/getaround/).
Back Market (https://www.backmarket.com/en-us)
Follow Back Market on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/back-market/), Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/BackMarketCom), X (https://x.com/backmarket), or Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/backmarket).
The Shadow Boxing App (https://shadowboxingapp.com/)
Follow Marc Gauthier on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/marcggauthier/).
Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/).
Transcript:
RÉMY: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, the Giant Robots on Tour series coming to you from Europe, West Asia, and Africa, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Rémy Hannequin.
SAMI: And I'm your other host, Sami Birnbaum.
RÉMY: If you are wondering who we are, make sure you find the previous podcast where we introduced the Giant Robots on Tour series by throwing random icebreakers at each other. And find out that Jared likes it when someone takes the time to understand someone else's point of view.
Joining us today is Marc G Gauthier, a Solopreneur and Startup Coach.
Marc, you used to be VP of Engineering at Drivy, now known as Getaround, and also Director of Engineering at Back Market. You also have been a coach and advisor to a startup for over a decade. Currently, your current adventure is being the Founder and Developer of The Shadow Boxing App available on the Apple App Store. We always like to go back to the start with our guests. Everyone has a story, and we are interested in your journey. So, Marc, what led you into the world of software engineering in the first place?
MARC: Hello. Well, happy to be here. And, yeah, I started getting into software development quite a long time ago. I actually learned software development with QBasic when I was something like seven. And, from there, I just kept on learning, learning, and learning and got into school for it, then worked in different startups, and then moved into more leadership position management. And I'm now, like, coaching people and building my own product.
What do you want to get? Because it's broad. I've been doing it for quite a while. Like, I don't think the QBasic days are that insightful. The only thing I remember from that time is being confused by the print comment that I would expect it to print on my printer or something, but it didn't; it just printed on the screen. That's the only thing I have from back then.
SAMI: Why at seven years old? And I'm taking you back too far, but at seven years old, I was probably collecting Pokémon cards and possibly like, you know, those football stickers. I don't know if you had the Panini stickers.
MARC: Oh yeah, I was doing that as well.
SAMI: But you were doing that as well. But then what drove you at that age? What do you think it was that made you think, I want to start learning to code, or play around with the computer, or get into tech?
MARC: [laughs] Yeah. Well, I remember, back then, I really wanted a computer to play games. Like, I had a friend who had a computer. He was playing games, and I wanted to do that. So, I was asking my mom to have a computer, and she told me, "Yeah, you can have one." And she found a really old computer she bought from a neighbor, I think. But she told me like, "I don't know anything about it. So, you have to figure it out and set it up." And she just found someone to kind of help me. And this person told me to, like, take the computer apart. She taught me a bit of software development, and I kind of liked it.
And I was always trying to change the games. Back then, it was way easier. You could just edit a sound file, and you would just edit the sound file in the game, so yeah, just learning like this. It wasn't really my intent to learn programming. It just kind of happened because I wanted to play video games really.
SAMI: That's really cool. It's really interesting. Rémy, do you remember how...how did you first get...do you remember your first computer, Rémy?
RÉMY: My first computer, I think I remember, but the first one I used it was, first, a very long time ago. I discovered that it was an Apple computer way, way later when I discovered what Apple was and what computers were actually. And I just remember playing SimCity 2000 on it, and it was amazing. And we had to, you know, cancel people from making phone calls while we were on the computer because of the internet and all the way we had to connect to the internet back then.
And after that, just, I think, Windows 95 at home. Yeah, that's the only thing I can remember actually. Because I think I was lucky, so I got one quite early. And I don't really remember not having one, so I was quite lucky with that. And so, I was always kind of in the computer game without being too much [inaudible 05:02] [laughs].
SAMI: Yeah, I think that's similar to me as well. Like, it's interesting because my initial introduction to computers would have been watching my older brothers kind of play computer games and actually being told to get out the room, or like, you know, "We're busy now. Don't bother us." And then, what actually happened is when they left the room, I managed to play what they were playing, which was the first ever GTA. I don't know if anyone ever played this, but it is so cool if you look back on it. You could probably find emulators online, but it was, like, a bird's eye view, like, way of operating.
And it was probably also that drive where you get frustrated on a computer because you want to do something, so, like you were saying, Marc, where you went to edit the sound files because you want to change something. You want to do something. I definitely think that is something which I felt as well is that frustration of I want to change this thing. And then, that kind of gets into well, how does it work? And if I know how it works, then I can probably change it.
MARC: Yeah. And once you figure out how things work, it's also really exciting. Like, once you figure out the initialization file on Windows, like, you can edit, like, what level is unlocked right away. It's kind of cheat codes but not really. And there are some really fun ones. Like, I would edit sound files for racing games. And, usually, it's just a base sound file, and then they would pitch shift the sound to make it sound like an engine. So, if you record your voice, it's just really funny.
RÉMY: So, Marc, you mentioned moving to management positions quite early. Do you remember what made you do this move? Was it for, like, a natural path in your career, or was it something you really wanted from the first part of your career as a developer? What happened at this moment?
MARC: Yeah, that was not completely planned. Like, I don't think I really plan my career precisely. It's just something that happens. So, I joined Drivy after, like, I was already a software engineer for, like, five years at that point. I joined as a lead backend engineer. I did that for three years. And after three years, the company went from...I think there was, like, three software engineers to a dozen. There was a need for more structure, and the CTO, at the time so, Nicolas, wanted to focus more on products. And it was hard to do both, like do the product side, the design, the data, and do the engineering, the software, and so on.
So, he wanted to get a bit away from software engineering and more into product. So, there was a gap in the organization. I was there. I was interested to try, and I was already doing some more things on the human side, so talking to people, organizing, internal communication. I kind of liked it. So, I was excited to try, give it a try. It was really interesting.
I found that it was a different way to have an impact on the team. I just kept doing it. And my plan was to keep doing it until I'm bored with it. And I'm still not bored with it, even though you kind of miss just actually building the software yourselves, actually coding. So, that's also why I'm trying something different right now with my mobile app adventure.
SAMI: Right. So, on the side, you've got this Shadow Boxing App, which, in my dedicated research, I downloaded and had a go with it.
MARC: Did you actually try it, or did you just click around?
SAMI: I did a proper workout, mate. I did. I put myself as, like, the absolute beginner. I did it on my MacBook Pro. I know it's built for iPad or iPhone, but it still worked amazingly well. And it kind of reminded me why I stopped doing boxing because it's hard work.
MARC: [laughs] Yeah, it is.
SAMI: It's not a gimmick this thing, right? So, it's like, the best way to describe it is it's essentially replacing if I was to go to the gym and have a trainer who's telling me kind of the moves to make or how to do it, then this kind of replaces that trainer. So, it's something you can do at home. It was really cool. I was surprised, actually. I thought, at the beginning, it's not going to be that interactive, or it won't actually be as hard or difficult as a workout, and it really was. So, it's, yeah, it was really cool, really interesting to try it.
And going into that, you say you wanted to get back more into coding, and that's why you are doing this kind of, like, app on the side, or it allowed you to kind of do a bit more coding away from the people management. You've been involved in a lot of startups, and I actually often get...as consultants, when we work at thoughtbot, we get a lot of people who come with different startup ideas. When you look back at all the startups you've been involved with, do you think more startups are successful than those that fail? Or have you seen a lot of startups...actually, people come with these great ideas; they want to build this amazing product, but it's actually really hard to be a successful product?
MARC: I think it's [inaudible 10:22] how to have the right idea, be at the right spot at the right time, build the right team, get enough momentum. I think most startups fail, and even startups that are successful often can be the result of a pivot. Like, I know companies that pivoted a bunch of times before finding any success. So, it's really hard actually...if I take my past four companies, only two are still alive. Like, the first two went under. Actually, there's even more companies that went under after I left. Yeah, it's just really hard to get anything off the ground. So, yeah, it's complicated, and I have a lot of respect for all the founders that go through it.
For The Shadow Boxing App, I worked on it for the past three years, but I'm only working on it almost full-time for the past two months. And it was way safer. I could check the product-market fit. I could check if I enjoyed working on it. So, I guess it was easier. I had the luxury of having a full-time job. Building the app didn't take that much time.
But to answer your question, I think, from my experience, most startups fail. And the ones that succeed it's kind of lightning in a bottle, or, like, there's a lot of factors that get into it. It's hard to replicate. A lot of people try to replicate some science, some ideas. They go, oh, we'll do this, and we'll do that. And we use this technique that Google uses and so on, but it's never that straightforward.
SAMI: Yeah, I'm so happy you said that because I think it's a real brutal truth that I'd also say most of the startup projects that I've worked on probably have failed. Like, there's very few that actually make it. It's such a saturated market. And I think, I guess, in your role as advising startups, it's really good to come in with that honesty at the beginning and to say, "It's a big investment if you want to build something. Most people probably aren't successful." And then, when you work from that perspective, you can have, like, way more transparent and open discussions from the get-go.
Because when you're outside of tech...and a lot of people have this idea of if I could just get an app to do my idea, I'm going to be the next Facebook. I'm going to be the next, you know, Amazon Marketplace. And it just kind of isn't like that. You've got these massive leaders in Facebook, Amazon, Google, Netflix. But below that, there's a lot of failures and a massively saturated market. So, yeah, just, it's so interesting that you also see it in a similar way.
MARC: What I saw evolve in the past 10 years is the fact that people got more realistic with it. So, maybe 10 years ago, I would have people coming to me with just the most ridiculous idea, like, you know, I'll do Airbnb for cats. And really think, yeah, I just need a good idea, and that's it. But now I feel like people kind of understand that it's more complicated. There's way more resources online. People are more educated. They also see way more successes. Failures are also a bit more advertised.
We saw a bunch of startups just go under. It feels like every month I get an email from a tool I used in the past saying, "Oh, we're shutting down," and so on. So, I think it's not as bad as 10 years ago where weekly I would have just people asking me, "I want to build this app," and the app would be just the most ridiculous thing or something that would be really smart, but it's really like, "Oh, I want to do, like, food delivery but better than what exists." It's like, yeah, that's a really good idea, but then you need...it's not only software. There's logistics. There's so much behind it that you don't seem to understand just yet.
But, as a coach, so, what I'm doing is I'm helping startups that are usually before or after series A but not too large of startups just go to the next stage. And people are really aware of that and really worried. Like, they see money going down, market fit not necessarily being there. And they know, like, their company is at risk.
And especially when you talk to founders, they're really aware that, you know, everything could be collapsing really quickly. If they make, like, three really bad decisions in a row, you're basically done. Obviously, it depends on the company, but yeah, people are more aware than before, especially nowadays where money is a bit harder to get. Let's say two years ago, there was infinite money, it felt like. Now it's more tight. People are more looking at the unit economics precisely. So, people need to be more realistic to succeed.
RÉMY: What's the kind of recurrent struggle the startups you coach usually face? Apparently, it quite changed in the past decade, but maybe what are the current struggles they face?
MARC: It really depends. It's kind of broad. But, usually, it would be, let's say, a startup after their first round of funding, let's say, if you take startups that are looking for funding. So, you usually have a group of founders, two to four, usually two or three, that are really entrepreneurs that want to bootstrap some things.
They're builders. They're hacking things together, and they're really excited about the product.
And, suddenly, fast forward a few years, they're starting to be successful, and they have to lead a team of, you know, like, 50 people, 100 people, and they weren't prepared for that. They were really prepared to, like, build software. Like, especially the CTOs, they are usually really great hackers. They can, like, create a product really quickly. But, suddenly, they need to manage 30 engineers, and it's completely different, and they're struggling with that. So, that's a common problem for CTOs. And then, it creates a bunch of problems.
Like, you would have CEOs and CTOs not agreeing on how to approach the strategy, how to approach building a thing. What should be the methodology? Something that worked with 3 engineers around the table doesn't work with 50 engineers distributed in 5 countries. And if it's your first time being a CTO, and often founders of early-stage startups are first-time CTOs, it can be really hard to figure out.
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RÉMY: In your past companies, so you've been VP and CTO. So, in your opinion, what's the best a VP or a CTO can bring to a scaling startup? What are your best tips to share?
MARC: I guess it depends [laughs], obviously, like, depending on the stage of the company, the size of the company. For instance, when I was at Drivy, at some point, the most important thing was scaling the team hiring, and so on. But, at some point, we got acquired by Getaround, and the priorities got shifted. It was more like, okay, how do you figure out this new setup for the company and the team? Like, what is good? What is bad? How do you communicate with the team? How do you get people to stay motivated when everything is changing? How do you make sure you make the right decisions?
And then, when I joined Back Market, Back Market when I joined, I had a team of a bit less than 12 engineers reporting directly to me. And after a bit more than a year, I had 60, and I hired most of them. So, here the challenge was just scaling insanely fast. Like, the company is really successful. Like, Back Market is selling refurbished electronics in a mission to, you know, provide a viable alternative to buying new electronics. So, it's basically, do you want a smartphone that is both cheaper and more ecologically viable? And most people would say yes to that. So, a company is insanely successful, but it's really hard to scale.
So, at that point, the role was, okay, how do you make sure you scale as well as possible with a lot of pressure while still leaving the team in a state that they're able to still build software? Because it's just really chaotic. Like, you can't, like, 5X your team without chaos. But how do you minimize that but still go really fast?
SAMI: Yeah. So, not only did I try that Shadow App. I actually went on that Backup website. What's it called? It's not called Backup. What's it called again?
MARC: Back Market.
SAMI: Back Market. Thank you. Yeah, it was really cool. I checked my old iPhone SE from 2020, which I've kept for about...over three years, I've had this iPhone. And they said they would give me $72 for it, which was really cool. So, it sounds like a really cool idea.
MARC: That's something we worked on, which is, basically, if you have any old phones in your drawer, it's a really bad spot for them. And so, there's a service. You go on the website. You say, "I have this, I have that; I have this, I have that." And either we buy it from you, or we just take it away from you, and we recycle them, which is much better than just having them collect dust.
SAMI: Yeah, no, it's a great idea. What interested me when you were speaking about kind of these different positions that you've been in, I was almost expecting you to talk about maybe, like, a technical challenge or code complexity difficulty. But, actually, what you've described is more people problems. And how do we scale with regards to people, and how do we keep people motivated?
So, I guess using that experience, and this might be counterintuitive to what a lot of people think, but what do you think is the hardest thing about software development? I know there could be many things. But if you had to pick something that is the most difficult, and maybe we can all have an answer to what we think this is, but starting with you, Marc, what do you think is the hardest thing about software development then?
MARC: What I saw is how do you build something that works for enough time to bring value to the customers? So, it's easy to hack something together pretty quickly and get it in front of people, but then it might not be reliable. It might break down. Or you could decide to build something perfect and spend, like, two years on it and then ship it, and then it's really stable, but maybe it's not what people want. And finding this balance between shipping something fast, but shipping something that is reliable enough for what you're building. Obviously, if you're building a health care system, you will have more, like, the bar will be higher than if you build, like, Airbnb for cats.
Finding this balance and adjusting as you go is really hard. So, for instance, when do you introduce caching? Because, obviously, caching is hard to do right. If you don't do it, your site will be slow, which can be okay for a time. But then if you introduce it too late, then it's really hard to just retrofit into whatever you already have. So, finding the right moment to introduce a new practice, introduce a new technology is tricky.
And then, like, I talked a lot about the people, and it's also because I spent quite a bit of time in leadership position. But, at the end of the day, it will be the people writing the code that gets the software to exist and run. So, having people aligned and agreeing on the vision is also key because unless I'm the only developer on the project, I can't really make all decisions on things that are going to get built. So, figuring out how to get people motivated, interested in just building in the same direction is really important. It's really easy.
Like, one thing with Drivy, when I was there, that was really fun to see, like, many people have this reaction, especially the more senior people joining the company. They would see the engineering team, and they were really, really surprised by how small it was because we were being really, really efficient. Like, we were paying really close attention to what we would work on.
So, kind of technology we would introduce would be quite conservative on both to really be able to deliver what is the most important. So, we were able to do a lot with, honestly, not a lot of people. And I think this is a great mark for success. You don't need a thousand people to build your software if you ask the right question, like, "Do I need to build X or Y?" and always having these discussions.
RÉMY: What's your opinion on that, Sami?
SAMI: Yeah, I guess it changes. Like, for example, today, the hardest thing about software development was just getting Jira to work. That has literally ruined my whole day. But I've found, for me, what I find is the most difficult thing to do is making code resilient to change. What I mean by that is writing code that's easy to change. And a lot of that, I guess, we try to work on at thoughtbot, as consultants, is following kind of design principles and best practices and certain design patterns that really make the code easy to change. Because that, I think, when I'm writing code is the biggest challenge.
And where I feel when I'm working with our clients one of the biggest things they can invest in, which is difficult because there's not a lot of visibility around it or metrics, is ensuring that code that's written is easy to change because, at some point, it will. And I've also worked on systems which are bigger, and when you can't change them, conversations start happening about the cost of change. Do we rewrite it from the ground up again? And that opens a whole different can of worms. So, that, for me, I think, is definitely one of the hardest things. How about yourself, Rémy?
RÉMY: I don't know about the most difficult. I mean, there are many things difficult. But I remember something that I had to put extra effort, so maybe it was one of the most difficult for me. When I started being a consultant, when I joined thoughtbot was to understand what's the boundary between executing and giving an advice? So, basically, I discovered that when you're a consultant, but it works also when you're a developer in a team, you know, you're not just only the one who is going to write the code. You're supposed to be also someone with expertise, experience to share it and to make the project and the team benefit from it.
So, at some point, I discovered that I should not just listen to what the client would say they want. Obviously, that's what they want, but it's more interesting and more difficult to understand why they want it and why they actually need, which could be different from what they want. So, it's a whole different conversation to discover together what is actually the necessary thing to build, and with your expertise and experience, try to find the thing that is going to be the most efficient, reliable, and making both the client and the customers happy.
MARC: Yeah. And as software engineers, it's really easy to get excited about a problem and just go, "Oh, I could solve it this way." But then you need to step back and go, "Well, maybe it doesn't need fixing, or we should do something completely different." At some point, I was working with a customer service organization. In their workflows, they had to go on, let's say, five different pages and click on the button to get something to do one action.
And so, what they asked for is to have those five buttons on one single page, and so, they could go, click, click, click, click, click. But after looking at it, what they needed is just automation of that, not five buttons on the page. But it's really easy to go, oh, and we could make those buttons, like, kind of generic and have a button creator thing and make it really fancy. When you step back, you go, oh, they shouldn't be clicking that many buttons.
SAMI: Yeah, that makes so much sense because just in that example...I can't remember where I read this, but every line of code you write has to be maintained. So, in that example where you've got five buttons, you're kind of maintaining probably a lot more code than when you've got the single button, which goes to, I don't know, a single action or a method that will handle kind of all the automation for you. And that's also, you know, driving at simplicity.
So, sometimes, like, you see this really cool problem, and there's a really cool way to solve it. But if you can solve it, you mentioned, like, being conservative with the type of frameworks maybe you used in a previous company, like, solve it in the most simple way, and you'll thank yourself later. Because, at some point, you have to come back to it, and maintain it, change it. Yeah, so it makes a lot of sense.
And, Marc, you said you started when you were 7, which is really young. Through that amount of time, you've probably seen massive changes in the way websites look, feel, and how they work. In that time, what's the biggest change you actually think you've seen?
MARC: The biggest thing I saw is, when I started, internet didn't exist or at least wasn't available. Like, I remember being at school and the teacher would ask like, "How many people have a computer at home?" And we'd be like, two or three people. So, people didn't have internet until I was like 14, 15, I'd say. So, that's the biggest one.
But, let's say, after it started, they just got more complicated. Like, so, the complexity is getting crazy. Like, I remember, at some point, where I saw I think it was called Aviary. It was basically Photoshop in the browser, and I was just insanely impressed by just the fact that you could do this in the browser. And, nowadays, like, you've got Figma, and you've got so many tools that are insanely impressive. Back then, it was just text, images, and that's it.
I actually wrote a blog post a few years ago about how I used to build websites just using frames. So, I don't know if you're familiar with just frames, but I didn't really know how to do divs. So, I would just do frames because that's what I understood back then, again, little kid. But it was kind of working. You were dealing with IE 5 or, like, I remember, like, professionally fixing bugs for IE 5.5 or, like, AOL, like, 9, something ridiculous like this.
So, building a website just got way easier but also way more complicated, if that makes sense. Like, it's way easier to do most things. For instance, I don't know, like, 20 years ago, you wanted a rounded corner; you would have to create images and kind of overlay them in a weird way. It would break in many cases. Nowadays, you want rounded corners? That's a non-topic. But now you need, like, offline capabilities of your website. And, in a lot of cases, there's really complex features that are expected from users. So, the bar is getting raised to crazy levels.
SAMI: Yeah, I always wonder about this. Like, when you look at how the internet used to be and how people develop for the internet, and, like you're saying, now it's more complex but easier to do some things. I don't know if as developers we're making things harder or easier for ourselves. Like, if you look at the amount of technology someone needs to know to get started, it grows constantly. To do this, you have to add this framework, and you need to have this library, and maybe even a different language, and then, to even host something now, the amount of technologies you need to know. Do you think we're making things harder for ourselves, or do you think easier?
MARC: Well, I guess there's always back and forth, like, regarding complexity. So, things will get really, really complex, and then someone will go, "Well, let's stop that and simplify." That's why, like, I'm seeing some people not rejecting React and so on, but going a simpler route like Rails has options like this. There's people using HTMX, which is really simple. So, just going back to something simpler.
I think a lot of the really complex solutions also come from the fact that now we have massive teams building websites, and you need that complexity to be able to handle the team size. But it's kind of, then you need more people to handle the complexity, and it's just getting crazy. Yeah, honestly, I don't know. I'm seeing a lot of things that feel too complex for...like, the technology feels really complicated to accomplish some things that should be simple or at least feel simple. But, at the same time, there are things that got so simple that it's ridiculous like just accepting payment.
I remember, like, if you wanted to accept payment on a site, it would be months of work, and now it takes a minute. You just plug in Stripe, and it works. And it's often cheaper than what it used to be. So, it's kind of...or deploying. You mentioned deploying can be really hard. Well, you don't need to have a physical server in your room just eating your place up to have your website, your personal website running. You just push it to Vercel, or Heroku, or whatever, or just a static page on S3. So, this got simpler, but then, yeah, you can get it to be so much more crazy. So, if you host your static website on S3, fairly simple. But then if you try to understand permissions on S3, then, you know, it's over.
RÉMY: I don't know if it's really in the path of our discussion. I just wanted to ask you, so this is the on tour series, where we...so, usually, the Giant Robots podcast used to be a little bit more American-centric, and this on tour is moving back to the other side of the Atlantic with, again, Europe, West Asia, and Africa. You've been part of a company, Drivy, which expanded from France to neighboring countries in Europe. What could you tell our listeners about how to expand a business internationally?
MARC: That's a tough question, especially in Europe. Because I know looking from the outside, like, if you're from the U.S. and you look at Europe, it feels like, you know, a uniform continent, but really, it's very different. Like, just payment methods are different. Culture is very different.
For instance, when I was working at Back Market in France, one of the branding aspects of Back Market was its humor. Like, we would be making a lot of jokes on the website, and it would work really well in France. Like, people would love the brand. But then you expand to other countries, and they just don't find that funny at all. Like, it's not helping at all, and they're expecting a different tone of voice. So, it's not just, okay, I need to translate my own page; it's I need to internationalize for this market.
I guess my advice is do it country by country. Sometimes I see companies going like, oh, we opened in 20 different countries, and you go, how even do you do that? And spend some time understanding how people are using your product or, like, a similar product locally because you would be surprised by what you learn. Sometimes there's different capabilities.
For instance, when Drivy went to the UK, there's so much more you can learn. There's the government database that you can look up, and it really helps with managing risk. If people are known to steal cars, you can kind of figure it out. I'm simplifying a bit, but you can use this. You don't have that in France because we just don't have this solution. But if you go to Nordic countries, for instance, they have way more electric vehicles, so maybe the product doesn't work as well.
So, it's really understanding what's different locally and being willing to invest, to adapt. Because if you go, okay, I'm going to open in the Netherlands but you don't adopt the payment methods that are used in the Netherlands, you might as well not open at all. So, it's either you do it properly and you kind of figure out what properly means for your product, or you postpone, and you do it well later.
Like, right now, I'm struggling a bit with my app because it's open. So, it's on the App Store, so it's open globally. And it's a SaaS, so it's simpler, but I struggle with language. So, it's in French and English. I spoke both of this language, obviously, French better than English. But I think I'm doing okay with both. But I also built it in Spanish because I speak some Spanish fairly poorly, and I wanted to try to hit a different market like the Mexican market that are doing boxing quite a lot. But the quality doesn't seem there.
Like, I don't have the specific boxing lingo, so I'm contemplating just rolling it back, like, removing the Spanish language until I get it really well, maybe with a translator dedicated to it that knows boxing in Spanish. Because I work with translators that would translate, but they don't really know that, yeah, like a jab in boxing. In Spanish, they might also say, "Jab." They won't translate it to, like, [inaudible 38:31].
SAMI: Yeah. At thoughtbot, we have one of our clients they wanted to release their app also internationally. And so, we had also kind of a lot of these problems. We even had to handle...so, in some languages, you go from left to right, right to left. So, that kind of also changed a lot of the way you would design things is mainly for people who are going from left to right. I mean, that's thinking kind of more Europe, U.S.-centric. And then, you could be releasing your app into a different country where they read the other direction.
So, yeah, a lot of this stuff is really interesting, especially the culture, like you're saying. Do they find this humor funny? And then, how do they translate things? Which, in my head, I think, could you use AI to do that. Which is a nice segue into, like, the mandatory question about AI, which we can't let you go until we ask you.
MARC: [laughs]
SAMI: So, okay, obviously, I'm going to ask you about your thoughts on AI and where you think we're headed. But I've seen something interesting, which I don't know if this is something that resonates with you as well. I've seen a bit of a trend where the more experienced developers or more senior developers I talk to seem to be a bit more calm and less concerned. Whereas I would consider myself as less experienced, and I feel, like, kind of more anxious, more nervous, more jumping on the bandwagon sort of feeling of keeping an eye on it. So, I guess, with your experience, what are your thoughts on AI? Where do you think we are headed?
MARC: That's a big question, and it feels like it's changing month to month. It feels way more interesting than other trends before. Like, I'm way more excited about the capabilities of AI than, like, NFTs or stuff like this. I'm actively using AI tooling in my app. I was using some AI at Back Market. So, it's interesting. There's a bunch of things you can be doing.
Personally, I don't think that it's going to, like, make programming irrelevant, for instance. It will just change a bit how you will build things just like...so, we talked about what changed in the past. For instance, at some point, you would need a team of people moving around physical computers and servers and just hooking them up to be able to have a website. But now, most people would just use a cloud provider. So, all those people either they work for the cloud provider, or they're out of a job. But really what happened is most shifted into something different, and then we focused on something different. Instead of learning how to handle a farm of servers, we learned how to, I don't know, handle more concurrency in our models.
And I think when I look back, I feel like, technically, maybe, I don't know, 70%, 80% of what I learned is now useless. Like, I spent years getting really good at handling Internet Explorer as a web developer. Now it's just gone, so it's just gone forever. And it feels like there's some practice that we're having right now that will be gone forever thanks to AI or because of AI, depending on how you look at it. But then there'll be new things to do. I'm not sure yet what it will be, but it will create new opportunities. There are some things that look a bit scary, like, or creepy. But I'm not worried about jobs or things like this.
I'm a bit concerned about people learning programming right now because, yeah, there's a lot of hand-holding, and there's a lot of tools that you have to pay to get access to this hand-holding. So, if you're a student right now in school learning programming and your school is giving you some AI assistant, like Copilot or whatever, and this assistant is really good, but suddenly it goes away because you're not paying anymore, or, like, the model change, if you don't know how to code anymore, then it's a problem. Or maybe you're not struggling as much. And you're not digging deep enough, and so you're learning slower. And you're being a bit robbed of the opportunity to learn by the AI. So, it's just giving you the solution.
But it's just, like, the way I use it right now, so I don't have an assistant enabled, but I usually have, like, a ChatGPT window open somewhere. It's more like a better Stack Overflow or a more precise Stack Overflow. And that helps me a lot, and that's really convenient. Like, right now, I'm building mostly using Swift and Swift UI, but I'm mainly a Ruby and JavaScript developer. So, I'm struggling a lot and being able to ask really simple questions.
I had a case just this morning where I asked how to handle loading of images without using the assets folder in Xcode. I just couldn't figure it out, but it's really simple. So, it was able to tell me, like, right away, like, five options on how to do it, and I was able to pick the one that would fit. So, yeah, really interesting, but yeah, I'm not that worried. The only part I would be worried is if people are learning right now and relying way too much on AI.
RÉMY: Well, at least it's positive for our job. Thank you for making us believe in a bright future, Marc.
MARC: [laughs]
RÉMY: All right. Thank you so much, Marc, for joining us. It was a real pleasure. Before we leave, Marc, if you want to be contacted, if people want to get a hold of you, how can you be contacted?
MARC: There's two ways: either LinkedIn, look up Marc G Gauthier. Like, the middle initial is important because Marc Gauthier is basically John Smith in France. My website, which is marcgg.com. You can find my blog. You can find a way to hire me as a coach or advisor. That's the best way to reach out to me.
RÉMY: Thank you so much. And thank you, Sami, as well.
You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have any questions or comments, you can email us at [email protected]. You can find me on social media as rhannequin.
This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
Thanks for listening, and see you next time.
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In this podcast episode of "Giant Robots On Tour," hosts Sami Birnbaum and Rémy Hannequin explore mental health in the age of artificial intelligence with Sara Wilder, a Therapeutic Life Consultant and Licensed Clinical Social Worker. Sami shares his own brief foray into psychotherapy before transitioning to tech, highlighting the relevance of mental health in today's rapidly evolving technological landscape. Sara, whose path to therapy was influenced by her personal struggles and a desire to help others, discusses her unique approach as a Therapeutic Life Consultant, which blends traditional therapy with direct coaching and consulting.
Sara elaborates on her journey and how the COVID-19 pandemic pushed her towards integrating technology into her practice. She transitioned from in-person sessions to virtual consultations, emphasizing the impact of this shift on mental health and brain function. Sara's interest in AI stemmed from her need to scale her business and her desire to use technology to aid her clients. She discusses her experience with AI tools like ChatGPT, both the benefits and challenges, such as generating relatable content and addressing AI "hallucinations." Sara highlights the importance of using AI ethically and maintaining human oversight to ensure the authenticity and accuracy of AI-generated outputs.
The conversation also delves into broader concerns about the impact of AI and technology on mental health. Sami and Rémy discuss the addictive nature of technology and its parallels with substance addiction, emphasizing the need for self-imposed boundaries and emotional intelligence. Sara shares insights into how AI can be a valuable tool in therapy, such as using AI for social anxiety role-playing or to generate conversation prompts. The episode concludes with a discussion on the balance between leveraging AI for efficiency and maintaining human connection, stressing the need for ongoing education and ethical considerations in AI development and deployment.
Follow Sara Wilder on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/sara-wilder-lcsw-lcas-ccs-9753517b/). Visit her website: sarawilderlcsw.com (https://sarawilderlcsw.com/).
Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/).
Transcript:
SAMI: Yes, and we are back. And this is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, the Giant Robots on Tour series coming to you from Europe, West Asia, and Africa, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Sami Birnbaum.
RÉMY: And I'm your other host, Rémy Hannequin.
SAMI: Okay, if you're wondering where Jared is, we finally got rid of him. No, that's a joke, Jared, if you're listening. He was my previous co-host. You can go back to our other podcasts. But we've got Rémy on board today. And you could take a look at our previous podcast, where we introduce the Giant Robots on Tour series, where you'll find out about all the different co-hosts. And you can learn more about Rémy's sourdough bread.
Joining us today is Sara Wilder, a Therapeutic Life Consultant, Licensed Clinical Social Worker, and Clinical Addictions Specialist.
Okay, Sara, this is going to sound a little bit strange, but, actually, once upon a time in my own life, I kind of wanted to be you, not exactly you because that would be even more strange.
SARA: [chuckles]
SAMI: But before I got into coding and tech, I was interested in psychotherapy. And I started a course and, for different reasons, it didn't work out, and I never pursued that career. But what's really interested us about you is the work and research you're doing around mental health in this new world of AI, artificial intelligence. You have a really interesting talk coming up at the CreativeVerse Conference in North Carolina. And we actually have Fatima from thoughtbot who's going to be presenting at the same conference.
And you're specifically talking about prioritizing mental health in the age of AI. And there is so much we want to ask you about this. But before we do, I always like to go back to the start with my guests. Everyone has a story, and I'm interested in your journey. What led you into the world of therapy?
SARA: Well, to unpack that, it's, like, probably way too long for this podcast, but in a nutshell, I had no idea what...I did not want to be a therapist when I grew up, so thank you for wanting that more than me. But I landed here, I think, partly just because of, you know, I always wanted to help people. I never really knew what that was going to look like. I thought it maybe was going into nursing or more of the medical side. But really what landed me here and made me stay here and really choose to stay in my profession...because, at one point, I was like, no, I'm not sure I could do this for the rest of my life; this is a lot. But it was really my own suffering.
I had to take a really hard look at where I came from, what I had gone through, and why I wanted to just, you know, like, help people, but then try to keep changing how I did that. And I'm glad I chose to stay put in this kind of therapeutic, you know, life. Therapeutic life consultant is a term that I kind of formulated myself because I'm not quite a traditional therapist anymore. I'm not sitting in an office with the couch. We talk a lot about our relationship with our mothers.
But I have more of a personality that's direct and kind of coaching. And I want to go more into consulting and help people understand how to do their own healing work using my clinical background of being in diagnostics in different hospital settings, stuff like that. And because I had to do my own work, and I had to understand how to make sense of how my pain and my suffering was holding me back, and how I could turn that really into something that could help me thrive.
SAMI: Yeah, I think that's really powerful. I think that's a really powerful place to be able to come from, you know, to be able to kind of take your own challenges and the things that you've struggled with. And it's kind of like almost sometimes you have...the best teachers are the people who've gone through it themselves. And I can imagine that's been quite a journey. If only we had a longer podcast, right?
SARA: [chuckles]
SAMI: We could go into all our journeys. But it's super interesting. And, specifically, what has then kind of propelled you more towards looking into the tech aspect of it, right? So, I'm assuming...well, AI, at least, is relatively recent. And so, I'm assuming when you started out, it was more, like you're saying, a therapeutic setting, a life coaching setting, and now there's this sort of other angle, which is kind of coming into it. So, how did you end up getting involved or interested in the tech or the AI side?
SARA: I am an entrepreneur myself. When we go into what we call private practice, there is an element of business that most of us don't know. They don't really teach you business in social work school, and I kind of had to figure it out. But what really pushed me off that ledge to just figure it out and fly was COVID. And I, you know, went from a traditional office with the couch to being virtual. And it was going to be temporary, but I made the decision, and it was quite a difficult decision, given what I had already experienced in helping people through that transition, you know, going from traditional office spaces to at-home working.
But it was, yeah, I really had to understand the impact of technology on my practice, let alone my life. Working from home is a very different lifestyle when it comes to understanding what mental health means. You know, working from home and brain health is a big focus of, you know, what I discuss with my clients and educate them on. But more recently, and this is kind of how I got into the conference, when I started realizing that a lot of my own mental health was...I needed an outlet of creativity of something to be able to help me cope. I realized my business, and my content, and my passion could be that. So, I had to figure out how to scale myself.
And I'm still learning AI. I have an assistant, and she helps me. I have to use her to help me use ChatGPT because it is a beast if you don't know not only just learning the program but learning how to use it and also for it to really be authentic and not necessarily something that, you know, the bot just develops content for you, and you don't make it your own. So, it's a big old brain twister. And the concept of perception is very delicate, let alone with AI. But when you bring it into the tech world, it's a completely different type of language.
RÉMY: Since you started working with AI, you mentioned ChatGPT, have you noticed answers or generated content that is either incredibly useful and accurate, and, on the other side, other content that might be, I won't say disturbing, but at least not exactly what you would expect from a human?
SARA: Yeah, absolutely. It kind of weirds me out to, like...because I use it to kind of help my creative flow, like, if I have a blog post that I need to write. And it's very important for me to, you know, bring myself into my writing. So, when I started with ChatGPT, and it brings up something, and I'm like, who ever says that? Like, no one says that. Like, that's completely maybe like, you know, just it's a little bit unrelatable and a little stiff, I guess, is the best word I can use.
And then, I go through the processing of like, okay, let me figure out how I would write this. I feel like it does help me. It does prolong the process a little bit more. But I have also, yeah, so just kind of relatability factor, for me, is the first thing that sticks out.
But the other thing that I've learned a little bit more about listening to, you know, other podcasts and just trying to educate myself, which is a funny term because we use this, you know, in my field of mental health all the time, is it comes up with hallucination. So, it will fill in gaps of, you know, whether it be data, or in a statistic, or whether it's just a concept that it kind of makes up to kind of fill and have fillers in what it produces, which I'm still new to understanding what that really means. Like, yeah, it definitely can be some...and it needs to be something that we fact-check as well since it's just pulling from the general abyss of the internet, and that's not always the most accurate, you know, place of reference in general.
SAMI: Yeah, I can vouch for the abyss of the internet not always being the best place to find yourself [laughs]. There's some rabbit holes we've probably all been down. But it's so interesting because I find that the world has woken up to the impact that social media has had on everyone's mental health. And it almost feels like that was our first experiment with how tech can really impact us as a society and as individuals. And so, we've kind of seen that experiment and how that's played out, and I would argue we've probably failed. We've probably had this social media wave. And whether you'd look at it from a government perspective or a healthcare perspective, I don't actually think we've handled it well.
And it's almost, like, now we're on the cusp of our second experiment, right? This is now, okay, no longer social media. I mean, that is still relevant but put that to the side for a second. And you've got AI coming out with all these chatbots, generative AI, whether that's across images, text, and the impact that is going to have. So, I feel like the space that you're in is huge. I think you spoke before we started recording about, like, there's a mental health crisis. What do you see, or what concerns do you have given what we've seen with social media, the impact AI can have on our mental health?
SARA: You know, there's a lot of different points here, but I think I'll just go with the first thing that comes to my mind is the limits. There are not many limits, let alone...so, tech in itself, but just in our own natural human world, as individuals, we have to learn what boundaries are. We have to learn self-imposed limitations or else someone else is going to impose them on us, and that just doesn't feel as good when someone puts their own limitations on our reality.
So, when we bring this into tech,...and I also include...since my background is in addictions, I started realizing that correlation between, like, technology, the boom of access to information is really...it's a pleasure concept, is that when we have a thought and we can just go get information about the answer and it's immediate, that immediate gratification teaches the brain like, oh, I can do this. I can handle this myself. We're not looking at the by-product of that anymore. And I think because we're dealing with it, we can't really...we're so in it now. We can't see that like, oh, this could potentially be a problem, because it is.
We have become an immediate access world. I mean, even in rural...like, kids in Africa have a TikTok dancing. And they don't have running water in their communities, but they have a cell phone where they can get support. Like, I'm glad they can because that's great access. But they're not necessarily realizing the addictive aspect of what just being interconnected this way has on the brain, let alone the foundational understanding of what boundaries, and self-discipline, or just mental discipline would look like.
So, then when you bring this, I think, into the, you know, the AI world, we're already on a shaky ground of abuse of information and having too much information and not knowing how to process it. And I think that's probably been...I know an issue, for me, is that when I have too much information, I can't necessarily ask questions very well because I'm like, what is the question? Like, I know my brain is oversaturated, essentially, with information as well as potentially chemicals at this point because I'm just working so fast, so fast, so fast.
And I'm in my mid-thirties at this point. So, a teenager who's already dealing with impulse control issues because they're naturally developing, that gets really complicated very quickly. And that's what, in turn, we call attention deficit disorder, anxiety, autism spectrum. That's a little bit more complicated, but a lot of that intersects to be like, well, what are we dealing with? We're dealing with immediate gratification and a sensory processing issue because we're looking at screens, and our brains don't know how to adapt to that let alone regulate that.
SAMI: That makes so much sense. I guess it's because it's kind of a world that we all inhabit, right? As much as we talk about this and sometimes we like to think of the other like we're talking about someone else, I've found this in my own life as well. I'm addicted to my phone in ways, and I'm also seeking that immediate gratification. And it's almost, like you said, that dopamine hit, right? If there's a piece of information I want or there's a video that I want to see, it's there, and it's immediate.
And when you say these things, I guess it's kind of...it's a bit scary. And then, I wonder, on a more macro level, why, as a society, do we do this to ourselves? I don't expect anyone on this podcast [chuckles] to have the answer, right? But I'm always interested, like, if we're aware of this and we're cognizant of what's going on, and, Rémy, feel free to jump in on this as well, like, as a society, why are we doing this to ourselves?
SARA: Now, by no means is this...like, this is just my answer, and I don't have the answer for everything. But I've had...sometimes as a therapist, you have to fill space and come up with an answer. So, my hypothesis is that it's natural human behavior. I think our brains...we are, you know, survival of the fittest. That's natural. Like, at the end of the day, we're going to fight for our life. And life really comes down, in my perspective, it comes down to, like, we have suffering, and we have pleasure.
However, we've learned now that as an evolving, you know, species, that we are one of the only species that can build executive functioning skills in our brains and have different parts of that that we have to kind of understand the baseline. Survival has gotten us so far, and we've made a lot of great headway with that. But pleasure is not sustainable. Pleasure is a beautiful concept to have in life. But when we talk about what's the goal of life, we want to be happy. Happy and pleasure are actually two very different things to the brain. And a lot of it is just a matter of space being used.
Pleasure and dopamine is actually a very small part of the brain, whereas happiness expands and is able to circulate chemicals, and synapses, and energy throughout the rest of the brain but that it has to be a conscious choice. And I think a lot of people don't realize, yeah, you're making choices. I'm not saying, like, no one doesn't have, you know, some degree of free will, but if you're dealing with any degree of stress, emotions, cognitive bias in general, you're not making an actual, like, expansive choice about what options you have to expand your consciousness and your brain capacity.
RÉMY: I like the way that today we realized that a lot of things related to this is chemicals that we all have, which remove a little bit the guilt when you are addicted, you know, because it can happen to anyone. But also, it's a reminder that it can happen to anyone. So, nobody is immune to that because that's how we're built. And I really like this approach. It's just natural, which means it's okay to feel it. But it's also dangerous to anyone, so anyone should address it. And, again, if you feel like you're losing it and losing to addiction, it feels good to just know that everybody is entitled to, unfortunately, to feel that at some point in their life.
SARA: I love that you mentioned that, and that's absolutely one of my goals is to break down the stigma of...when I use the word addiction...and I don't do small talk that well because I'm just like, let's talk about some real things here. This is what's going on. And it's scary to think of, like, addiction and what that means because of how we've seen it. And I don't know what it looks like particularly in the countries that you're from...a little bit. But I know, here in America, it's messy. It's hurtful. It's a lot of suffering.
It doesn't make us feel good to even think about that, which is why I try to teach my clients how to manage and regulate that because it does not discriminate. It's your brain. It's doing its natural thing and how you have to train and just learn how to train that. And it can get better, for sure. But yeah, I really try to break through, like, it's not something that we need to keep being scared about because that is actually what gives it its power. It gives that restrictiveness and that isolation and breaks that connection from each other. And that's ultimately what brings us out of an active addictive cycle is connection.
SAMI: Yeah, it's really interesting because technology it almost masks that by making you feel really connected. Like, I'm connected to all these people and all these things, but I don't feel that connection. And that really resonates with me when you talk about the difference between pleasure and happiness.
So, I hope my parents don't listen to this. But when I was in university, I'm pretty sure I had a gaming addiction. So, I used to live in the loft in my house. I don't know what you'd call it in America. Maybe it's called the attic. I was at the top floor. So, essentially, I had...oh, back then, it would have been a PS3, and I was seriously addicted to Call of Duty, playing online.
And I remember doing just all-nighters, like, really often. I remember it got to a point where I would almost have to reset my whole sleep cycle because I ended up in a situation where I'd be awake in the night kind of always playing all night because I couldn't put the game down, and then sleeping during the day. And to get myself back into a normal rhythm, I'd have to force myself to stay awake for 24 hours. And I would even consider myself someone who doesn't have an addictive personality.
But when you were saying about the difference between pleasure and happiness, like, it was definitely hitting that dopamine, and it was pleasurable, but I didn't feel happy. Like, once I stopped, then there was all those feelings that Rémy described, which is, oh no, what have I done? I've wasted so much time and all that guilt that comes with it. So, it's really interesting.
And I guess it's also a bit like a codependency, which is something I've seen that you've touched on in your work as well, which I understand to be an unhealthy reliance on a human relationship. But I'm guessing we're probably seeing more of that and unhealthy reliance on tech software products and AI. Is that something you're seeing in your therapeutic work as well?
SARA: Oh, absolutely. Codependency it's a big topic to unpack. And I'll say it's a balance. We're never going to not be codependent on something because it literally...we're supposed to work together. We need each other to survive and to grow. But the unhealthy parts of it is, I think, because...I'll just speak from my own experience. I was never taught what emotional intelligence was when I was a kid. I grew up in a very middle-class, non-diverse part of the United States, where I didn't understand the foundational, like, what are boundaries? What are emotions? They try to teach you.
And I think that's been something that is going to take people a while to understand. But there is an unhealthy part of it because it's just mixed with...and confuse people of what do we actually need to need other people for. And it naturally sends us...I think this is primarily where relationships become a point of the discussion is relationships are necessary. But they're less successful if you don't have a relationship with yourself as a foundation because that's naturally going to help you realize that you don't need this one person. And you don't attach to a person out of necessity and out of survival or else, yeah, you're going to lose a huge aspect of your identity because you didn't have much of one to begin with.
And so, that's ultimately what I teach and educate people on when I work with them in session is just what codependency really is. We're going to be codependent on something. I'd rather you be aware of it. Denial is just dangerous in general. But being aware of how these things show up, you have a better of a choice now. And free will comes back to really in your control without less consequence over time or less negative consequence over time. [inaudible 20:44] my brother, though, Rémy. Call of Duty...[inaudible 20:48] the attic, it was the basement, but yeah. It doesn't discriminate against gender, but for men...he's also in the military. So, it was a very good outlet for him before he went, you know, active duty or [inaudible 21:02] and just self-expression. You don't have to talk about things.
I don't think this discriminates against country by any means, but I know for America, I try to stay in my lane with just speaking about Americans, is that men have been put in a very tough position when it comes to mental health because society reinforces: keep it together; be the provider; just deal with it, and painted this picture of, like, you don't have and can't express emotions. And then, we wonder why guns are an issue. We wonder why drinking and alcoholism is an issue and, you know, in the male population.
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SAMI: So, there's a lot of concerns. There's a lot of worries, and there's, I guess, negativity around tech and AI. Is there any silver lining? You know, some things we're getting from tech as we already know it, perhaps social media but also AI. Is there anything that we can look at and be like, actually, that will enhance our mental health, improve our society? Are there any positive things that you see coming from it?
SARA: I love that question because it is a heavy conversation. I tell people, if you're considering therapy, like, you got to consider it's a full-time job to intentionally lean into the heaviness of the reality that we live in. There's a lot going on right now. I kind of surprise myself every day as to why I do have some degree of hope. But I think that's also just because I see people recover every day. I am grateful for that because not everyone gets that experience.
If you're working more of a tech job and you're looking more at coding, and data, and screens all day, you don't see change from the human perspective. And if anything, if you go outside these days, it's just tense. We're extremely inflamed. I don't care what country you live in. We're all experiencing the sensory, like, I see it as...I was not good at chemistry, but one's like, when you heat up molecules and they move really fast, like, that's combustion. And it's about to be summer, so it's about to even be literally hotter. I'm not going to say it's going to get worse.
But I say that to say I do believe there is a degree of hope because not only do I see it, but I also see...I'm connected to communities who are doing work from what I kind of...is stealth and, like, covert. You're not really going to see goodness and kindness in the abundance of negativity and darkness, but it is there. And I also like to say that I educate people every day where it changes...maybe not everyone's going to change in that regard. But as an individual in a network and a system, if one person's changed, the system automatically changes.
And little by little, over time, I think the pendulum will swing back in a place where it's like, oh yeah, no, it really is happening. And I also kind of see it in this mental health crisis. Change comes out of crisis. It's unfortunate, but if we don't have a big enough reason to look at something, then we tend not to fix it, you know, be proactive. I mean, one of my goals is to get from this reactive place into a proactive and preemptive, you know, wellness space for people, but that also does have to be choice.
But I think it really has to start with people understanding and committing to themselves and taking care of themselves, which is why I also am hopeful is because that's a lot easier than trying to get other people to change for you. If you can commit and commit to yourself, and taking care of yourself, and prioritizing you being self-focused, not necessarily selfish because a lot of that gets a bad rap of like, oh, I'm being selfish. We do it a lot out of defense, which is why I think it's not that effective.
And so, like, oh, I'm just going to be selfish. I'm going to do what's best for me. You're also locking...you're doing that out of reaction typically because you're not realizing like, oh, I feel hurt because this person didn't prioritize me, so now I'm not going to prioritize them. I'm going to prioritize me. And what I mean intention and recovery comes down to like, when people hurt you, you still have to choose not to hurt them and not pull away. And so, I think if we can all understand...and it's a tough concept to stay in your lane. It really is. But if we can all try to stay in our lane and focus on taking care of ourselves, that is what I believe is going to make the most impact.
SAMI: And do you feel AI could help with that? Could we use AI? I'm interested how, like, specifically with regards to the tech, could that be part of this?
SARA: Absolutely. I think there's some foundational knowledge that needs to be done and work that needs to be done in each individual before AI can just kind of come in without creating, like, more intense dependency on it. But I know there are agencies here locally. I can't remember the name of...I was trying to remember this earlier. I met them at a networking event recently, but an agency who uses AI to help with social anxiety and role-playing when it comes to situational circumstances and exposure.
So, me as a therapist, I love doing exposure. I, for the most part, am an exposure exercise for some people is, you know, we open up and talk about, like, these things that people don't feel safe to talk about with their general networks. But AI, I've started kind of dabbling in, you know, I have some clients who deal with, you know, some, like, delusional disorders, schizoaffective disorder, where they didn't grow up in families where any of the, like, really important foundational concepts were discussed, or they were shut down. So, they're naturally trained to just stay in their head. And, in turn, you build a distrust with all the thoughts you have in your brain.
And I encourage my clients to have conversations with ChatGPT just to be like, "Hey, what's up? What's going on?" And telling it what it is that they need, to just normalize the communication of being like, okay, I'm a little nervous to go on a date. I don't know what to say. Can you help me with some ideas of what questions to ask to get to know someone? That, I think, is a lot less intimidating sometimes talking with me because my energy is easily transferable. And that can scare some people because I can get quite excited about, like, "Yo, you did that. That's great." And they're like, "Whoa, that's a lot."
SAMI: I'm loving your vibes.
SARA: Oh [laughs].
SAMI: It's good energy. I'm enjoying it.
SARA: Well, thank you. But I have a couple of clients that...talk about an investment, and I've told them this, and I was like, "I am going to pour into you." Because they just never had certain experiences at the right time to build a degree of confidence that would get them to the next place in life, where they realized like, oh, I can do that. Failure is not that bad, and it's different for everyone. But I do think AI can help in that regard.
It also can become a little bit challenging. I had a discussion on this with a colleague of mine who works in cybersecurity, and we were talking about AI and the intersection in relationships and the impact on intimacy in relationships, mostly with heterosexual relationships. But there, yeah, it can go a very different direction than hopeful. And it can cause harm or conflict in some relationships because it's easier to talk to a very structured computer bot than it is to a woman per se. But I think it can help as well to build a foundation for people to get to those points where you can be assertive and reflective in your experiences, build emotional intelligence over time to help relationships.
RÉMY: At thoughtbot, we have worked on projects that implement AI, and we are becoming more familiar with training models. One thing that concerns us is doing this in an ethical and safe way. What tips would you have for people who are actually creating models and driving change in this space?
SARA: I'd say the first thing that comes to my mind, though, and this is kind of going to go into my talk during the conference, how do you know you're connected with your own reality? I think that's the hardest part about the tech world is like, it's the boundary. Your brain does not know the difference between a computer screen and your reality. The biggest difference is your senses. And that's kind of been the...it's what's caused a lot of the problem with tech is that, you know, here we're having this conversation. I can see y'all. I can generally take into account what your environment is like, but I can't experience it the same way as if I was not sitting in the room with you.
And I think that is when you teach people how to activate their own realities, you know, teach them about their body and the somatic work, especially with trauma. When trauma is involved, is you have to know how to activate the here and now and train your brain to know what your reality is or else you're going to get lost in the sauce of, like, everyone else's reality, let alone opinions, but especially in the virtual world.
So, being able to know your sensory activation, how mindfulness is, that's a huge term, honestly. We could unpack that for 30 minutes itself. But that sensory activation is a huge part of mindfulness is being able to experience a thought that can trigger something of a reaction and being able to effectively detach from it without judgment, you know, it's training. It takes a lot of training, but senses are huge, and being able to, I think, ethically venture into that world of, you know, using the virtual space, using AI to train and be effective.
SAMI: Yeah, I want to pick up on something you said before because it kind of scared me [laughs], which I don't mind [laughs] saying that to you, right? Because I've got this fear that probably other people have also considered as well is people say about AI taking jobs. So, as a coder, we know AI is becoming more proficient at coding. Maybe other designers, other people in the tech world have this fear as well so much so I actually mentioned this in a previous podcast.
I taught myself some, like, real physical skills because I thought when AI takes my job completely, well, at least I'll be able to do something. I actually taught myself to silicone a bathroom. And if you know, you have those silicone beads that kind of go around a bathroom, so the water doesn't get in between the grating and the tiles. So, I remember when I was learning it, thinking, well, if AI does take our jobs, at least I'll be able to do this. But that's where my brain goes sometimes.
And then, when you were mentioning about using it in a therapeutic setting, like, oh, well, it can actually be helpful to chat to an AI bot about certain scenarios that you might be trying to work through in therapy. So, I guess the question is twofold. Number one, do you see AI having a big impact in a therapeutic setting and coming in and almost disrupting that industry? And also, what tips do you have for the majority of people who are now concerned that what is life going to look like, and what is it going to be? And will we all have jobs?
SARA: I think what's important is to understand what happens to the individual when fear is at play before we can even get to the bigger question of like, will AI take our jobs? But I'll start from the end. There will be some jobs that are taken by AI. But what you're talking about Rémy is, yes, there is a huge power to know how you can connect with your own life and AI. Even if you have a job that is in tech and can be overrun by AI, you still have value as a human being. However, you're not going to feel that way, one, if you have a lot of fear because we have to understand why you can't connect with that.
But because value is an invariant, to value something, you have to be quite intentional with training your brain to understand value, and you can do that if you know what fear does to your brain, and it's...quite simply, we've all heard it. It's the stress response: fight, flight, freeze, or fawn. So, when you're having a perceived threat, it doesn't mean...external is not the only threat. We threaten ourselves all the time with our own thought process based off of the experiences that we've had and trigger our own fear.
And your brain essentially is like, hold up, no, we're not going any further. There's a risk here. We're going to stop you. So, this is where a lot of people, like, have those moments. I could stare at a wall for, like, 10 minutes, but it's actually, like, almost two hours if I'm stressed out to the point...because I'm processing too much information, but it's also triggering a stress response for my brain. And we just get saturated and stuck in that moment. So, being able to know, okay, this is happening, then we can actually come back online.
So, I use the brain as a computer metaphor quite often. And when we know that we're in that fight or flight response mode, we can in turn engage so that...I actually have an acronym for fear that I'm going to be debuting at this conference. I'll just go ahead and debut it for y'all, a little sneak peek since you guys may or may not be able to be there. So, that fear is...we usually as an acronym, if you've ever heard this, is F everything and run.
And I'm going to define it as the F would be the fight response, fight, flight, freeze, and fawn. So, if you know that's going on, you can address it. The E would be engage. So, engage with your present moment, and that's where your body is, the one thing that tends to be in that present moment. And then, the A is accept. A lot of times we have to accept that we're maybe stuck. We may be at a problem. We may need to take a break. Accepting the things that we can't change in that moment is going to make a big difference on how we come back online on our brains and be able to understand, like, AI is a threat, but it's not going to take over everything, right? And then, the R is redirect. So, redirect to something that is going to change your perception of what the original trigger was.
And so, I think if people can understand how they work and how the brain is actually self-protecting, it's very, like, it's like, whoa, we're not going to let you do something completely destructive. But it cannot distinguish the severity of the threat, let alone can it not...actually, there's a lot of people who've trained their brain to not experience fear. Fear is what is supposed to keep us safe. So, it is just perceiving like, hey, AI could take our jobs, but it's also not giving you the context that you brought up, Rémy, about it's not going to take everything from us. It's actually supposed to be here to help us in [inaudible 36:23]. And it's also dependent on us.
So, if we're creating fear in the AI, then yeah, it's going to learn that, and it, could, I don't know, I can't tell the future in that regard. But we have plenty of things that don't have to be tech-related that AI won't take from us. And a lot of that is the natural world if we can keep it alive and value it enough.
RÉMY: I have one question for you. It might not be very in sync with the train of thought we're having because it's more related to the beginning of the episode. But you mentioned sometimes rebuilding confidence with people and building confidence and building the ability to trust yourself and to make your own good decisions. It feels like, to some extent, it can be rebuilding yourself. How do you deal with such a big action, such a big project? I mean, it's something that could take life to do so.
SARA: That's a great question. And sometimes it will take people's lives. I don't handle the whole rest of their life. I tell people like, "I'm going to give you some foundational things." And I do a lot of training. I'm very direct, which is why I have that therapeutic life consultant of like, I'm going to take my vast amount of experience, things that people are probably not going to experience and help them build a security in themselves and, over time, prepare them for when they deviate from that.
I tell people, like, especially if you have loved ones still living, depression is never going to just leave. The concept...there's no cure. It's being able to be prepared for when things happen in life versus feel completely unprepared. I just came out of a season of grief of, you know, I walked away from a relationship, as well as then trying to still maintain my business, still trying to maintain my clients and those relationships, let alone the relationship with myself, and then put my cat down, you know, like, you know, he was a child. I had him for 14 years. So, like, life is going to continuously happen. So, I'm not trying to figure it all out, but I'm trying to get people back to a point where they can understand how to find security for themselves.
Since mental health has been such a taboo topic for a long time, there is quite a bit of backlog, and that's what we're seeing. I don't know what it looks like in y'alls countries, but here in America, there is this rush of people. I need a therapist. I need to go to therapy. And we're at a shortage. Therapists can't necessarily help all, like, at once. And we also have to maintain our own mental health, or we're not going to be very helpful to people.
But really, it comes down to how you build that security with yourself and know and not anticipate, but be prepared for when there's something else that happens that disturbs your own peace. Because if you have an understanding of what peace looks like for you, and you can't necessarily control it, but you can influence it, and facilitate it in your life, then you have a stronger foundation to be able to endure, you know, potential loss of a loved one, hopefully, no time soon for anyone here, or out, or listening, but it's just the reality.
And that's part of, you know, my story of, I experienced a lot of loss from a young age, and it worked against me for a long time because I had no idea how to process and regulate energy and emotion in my body. And so, what it looked like was me holding on to repressing anger, not having a relationship with the natural emotions that we can't get rid of. You can't get rid of emotions. I wish I could just, you know, vomit them out and just be done with it and be like, okay, cool. We can all be stable. That's just not...that's not going to happen. I think that also is what makes us, you know, a great species and building, you know, great things in this world is emotion.
Tech was built off of passion and emotion. Did it cause some disarray and probably hurt some people in the process? Yeah. But I think we can reduce that from happening if people understand emotional intelligence and not just work, work, work, work, work. It's a new age coming to that. And I've, hopefully, been working on myself enough to be able to sustain helping people understand and shifting over to that new type of perspective of we can't do things the way that we've been doing them. We just can't. It's not sustainable. The human species will suffer from it and the earth will as well.
SAMI: Yeah, thank you so much, and just for bringing that level of transparency and honesty. It resonates with myself, and I'm sure it will help so many other people who are listening. We could talk to you for hours. I mean, there is so much. And some things we just did not have time to get into. But thank you so much for the time that you've given us. And it's been really insightful to look at AI and tech that we work with as consultants at thoughtbot on a daily basis from this perspective and look at it from this angle. If people want to get a hold of you, where would be the best place?
SARA: Finding my website is a big thing. That's just, you know, kind of the portal. So, that's sarawilderlcsw.com. Sara with an out an H. And then, also, venturing into this tech world, I have an app interface now that I have put together to kind of be a centerpiece for mental health resources, not only just, like, hotlines. That information is on my website as well.
But if you want to start doing your own work little by little, you know, having a centralized spot as well as not too much information. There's plenty of stuff you can Google about mental health. But this is vetted by me and organized to a point where they can, you know, one worksheet can make a difference, where you're just reflecting and taking, you know, 10-15 minutes to read through it and see how you can apply it in your life. It's called Power in Perspective.
SAMI: That's great. Definitely, I recommend go and check it out and check out Sara on her website. And if you can get down to that conference, that is, again, North Carolina called CreativeVerse, and you'll have the opportunity to hear Sara in person as well as Fatima from thoughtbot who's also presenting.
If you learned nothing else from today, then just remember: fear has an acronym for F everything and run. I guess that's my big takeaway. You also got a chance to hear about my gaming addiction. No one tell my parents.
And you can find notes and a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, you can email us at [email protected]. I always leave you the same challenge, and that challenge is to subscribe. We've got some great guests lined up, and you'll hear about it first if you subscribe. And feel free to leave any comments on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. We do check them all, and they're really helpful.
This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Check her out at mandymoore.tech. Thanks for listening. See ya.
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Hosts Will Larry and Chad Pytel interview Brock Dubbels, Principal UX and AI Researcher at CareTrainer.ai. Brock discusses how CareTrainer.ai leverages AI to address the current care crisis in elderly populations. He highlights the growing demographic of individuals over 70 and the significant shortage of caregivers, exacerbated by COVID-19. CareTrainer.ai aims to alleviate this by automating routine tasks, allowing caregivers to focus on building meaningful relationships and providing personalized, compassionate care. The platform utilizes AI to manage tasks such as documentation, communication, and monitoring, which helps caregivers spend more time engaging with patients, ultimately enhancing the quality of care and reducing caregiver burnout.
Brock elaborates on the specific tasks that CareTrainer.ai automates, using an example from his own experience. He explains how AI can transform transactional interactions into conversational ones, fostering trust and authenticity between caregivers and patients. By automating repetitive tasks, caregivers are freed to engage more deeply with patients, encouraging them to participate in their own care. This not only improves patient outcomes but also increases job satisfaction and retention among caregivers. Brock mentions the alarming attrition rates in caregiving jobs and how CareTrainer.ai’s approach can help mitigate this by creating more rewarding and relational caregiving roles.
Additionally, Brock discusses the apprenticeship model CareTrainer.ai employs to train caregivers. This model allows new caregivers to learn on the job with AI assistance, accelerating their training and integrating them more quickly into the workforce. He emphasizes the importance of designing AI tools that are user-friendly and enhance the caregiving experience rather than replace human interaction, and by focusing on customer obsession and continuously iterating based on feedback, CareTrainer.ai aims to create AI solutions that are not only effective but also enrich the entire caregiving profession.
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Follow CareTrainer.ai on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/caretraining-ai/).
Follow Brock Dubbels on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/brockdubbels/). Visit his website: brockdubbels.com (https://brockdubbels.com/).
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Transcript:
WILL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry.
CHAD: And I'm your other host, Chad Pytel. And with us today is Brock Dubbels, Principal UX and AI Researcher at CareTrainer.ai, which is transforming health care and caregiving with a human-first approach to artificial intelligence. Brock, thank you for joining us.
BROCK: Hey, thanks for having me, guys. I'm excited to talk about this.
CHAD: Brock, let's get started with just diving into what CareTrainer.ai actually does. You know, so many businesses today are getting started with or incorporating artificial intelligence into their product offerings. And I know that it's been something that you've been working on for a long time. So, what is CareTrainer?
BROCK: Well, CareTrainer is an opportunity in the midst of a crisis. So, right now, we have what's called a care crisis for the elderly populations. If you were to look at the age of the North American population and look at it over the next 10 years, about 65% of our population will be over the age of 70. And right now, we are understaffed in caregiving by almost 20%. Caregivers, especially after COVID, are leaving at about a 40% clip. And enrollment in these care programs is down 9%, but yet that older population is growing.
And in the midst of this, we've just recently had an executive order called the Older Americans Act, which states that we actually have to reduce the ratio of caregivers to patients, and we need to give more humane interaction to the patients in these facilities, in homes and help them to retain their dignity. Many of them lose their identity to diagnosis, and they're often referred to as the tasks associated with them.
And what CareTrainer attempts to do is take many of the tasks out of the hands of the caregivers so that they can focus on what they're good at, which is building relationships, learning and understanding, acting with curiosity and compassion, and demonstrating expert knowledge in the service to caring for patients, either in homes, facilities or even post-acute care.
WILL: You mentioned your hope is to take some of the tasks away from the caregivers. Can you go a little bit deeper into that? What tasks are you referring to?
BROCK: Let's think about an example. My mom was a public health nurse, and she worked in child maternal health. And these were oftentimes reluctant counseling sessions between she and a young mother or a potential mother. And if she were sitting there with a clipboard or behind a computer screen and looking at the screen, or the clipboard, and doing the interview with questions, she would probably not get a very good interview because she's not making a relationship. It's not conversational; it's transactional.
And when we have these transactional relationships, oftentimes, we're not building trust. We're not expressing authenticity. We're not building relationships. It's not conversational. And we don't get to know the person, and they don't trust us. So, when we have these transactional relationships, we don't actually build the loyalty or the motivation. And when we can free people of the tasks associated with the people that they care for by automating those tasks, we can free them up to build relationships, to build trust, and, in many cases, become more playful, expose their own vulnerability, their own past, their own history, and, hopefully, help these patients feel a little bit more of their worth.
Many of these people worked meaningful lives as school teachers, working at the fire department, working at the hardware store. And they had a lot of friends, and they did a lot for their community. And now they're in a place where maybe there's somebody taking care of them that doesn't know anything about them, and they just become a person in a chair that, you know, needs to be fed at noon. And I think that's very sad.
So, what we help to do is generate the conversations people like to have, learn the stories. But more importantly, we do what's called restorative care, which is, when we have a patient who becomes much more invested in their own self-care, the caregiver can actually be more autonomous. So, let's say it's an elderly person, and, in the past, they wouldn't dress themselves. But because they've been able to build trust in a relationship, they're actually putting on their own blouse and slacks now. For example, a certified nursing assistant or a home health aide can actually make the bed while they're up dressing because the home health aide or certified nursing assistant is not dressing them or is not putting the toothpaste on the toothbrush.
So, what we're doing is we're saying, "Let's get you involved in helping with restorative care." And this also increases retention amongst the caregivers. One of the things that I learned in doing an ethnography of a five-state regional healthcare system was that these caregivers there was an attrition rate of about 45% of these workers within the first 30 days of work. So, it's a huge expense for the facility, that attrition rate.
One of the reasons why they said they were leaving is because they felt like they weren't building any relationships with the people that they were caring for, and it was more like a task than it was a care or a relationship. And, in fact, in many cases, they described it as maid service with bedpans for grumpy people [chuckles]. And many of them said, "I know there's somebody nice down there, but I think that they've just become a little bit hesitant to engage because of the huge number of people that come through this job, and the lack of continuity, the lack of relationship, the lack of understanding that comes from building a relationship and getting to know each other."
And when we're talking about taking the tasks away, we're helping with communication. We're actually helping with diagnosis and charting. We're helping with keeping the care plan updated and having more data for the care plan so that nurse practitioners and MDs can have a much more robust set of data to make decisions upon when they meet with this patient. And this actually reduces the cost for the care facilities because there's less catastrophic care in the form of emergency rooms, prescriptions, assisted care, as well as they actually retain their help. The caregivers stay there because it's a good quality of life.
And when those other costs go down, some of the institutions that I work for actually put that money back into more patient care, hiring more people to have more meaningful, humane interactions. And that's what I mean about taking the tasks off of the caregiver so that they can have the conversations and the relational interactions, rather than the transactional interactions.
CHAD: One thing I've heard from past guests and clients that we've had in this space, too, is, to speak more to the problem, the lack of staff and the decline in the quality of care and feeling like it's very impersonal causes families to take on that burden or family members to take on that burden, but they're not necessarily equipped to do it. And it sort of causes this downward spiral of stress and quality of care that impacts much bigger than just the individual person who needs the care. It often impacts entire families.
BROCK: Oh yeah. Currently, they're estimating that family, friends, and communities are providing between $90 and $260,000 worth of care per person per year. And this is leading to, you know, major financial investments that many of these people don't have. It leads to negative health outcomes. So, in a lot of ways, what I just described is providing caregiver respite, and that is providing time for a caregiver to actually engage with a person that they're caring for, teaching them communication skills.
And one of the big things here is many of these institutions and families are having a hard time finding caregivers. Part of that is because we're using old systems of education in new days that require new approaches to the problem. And the key thing that CareTrainer does is it provides a guided apprenticeship, which means that you can earn while you learn. And what I mean by that is, rather than sitting in a chair in front of a screen doing computer-based training off of a modified PowerPoint with multiple-choice tests, you can actually be in the context of care and earning while you learn rather than learning to earn.
CHAD: Well, at thoughtbot, we're a big believer in apprenticeships as a really solid way of learning quickly from an experienced mentor in a structured way. I was excited to hear about the apprenticeship model that you have.
BROCK: Well, it's really exciting, isn't it? I mean, when you begin looking at what AI can do as...let's call it a copilot. I thought some of the numbers that Ethan Mollick at Wharton Business School shared on his blog and his study with Boston Consulting Group, which is that an AI copilot can actually raise the quality of work, raise the floor to 82%, what he calls mediocrity. 82% was a pretty good grade for a lot of kids in my classes back when I was a Montessori teacher.
But, in this case, what it does is it raises the floor to care by guiding through apprenticeship, and it allows people to learn through observation and trial and error. And people who are already at that 82nd percentile, according to Mollick's numbers, increase their productivity by 40%. The thing that we're not clear on is if certain people have a greater natural proficiency or proclivity for using these care pilots or if it's a learned behavior.
CHAD: So, the impact that CareTrainer can have is huge. The surface area of the problem and the size of the industry is huge. But often, from a product perspective, what we're trying to do is get to market, figure out the smallest addressable, minimum viable product. Was that a challenge for you to figure out, okay, what's the first thing that we do, and how do we bring that to market and without getting overwhelmed with all the potential possibilities that you have?
BROCK: Yeah, of course. I start out with what I call a GRITS model. I start out with, what are my goals? Then R, let's review the market. How is this problem being addressed now? I, what are my ideas for addressing these goals, and what's currently being done? And T, what tasks need to be completed in order to test these ideas? And what steps will I take to test them and iterate as far as a roadmap?
And what that allowed me to do is to begin saying, okay, let's take the ideas that I can bring together first that are going to have the first initial impact because we're bootstrapping. And what we need to be able to do is get into a room with somebody who realizes that training caregivers and nursing is something that needs a review, maybe some fresh ideas. And getting that in front of them, understanding that that's our MVP 1 was really important. And what was really interesting is our MVP 2 through 5, we've begun to see that the technology is just exponential, the growth and progress.
Our MVP 2 we thought we're going to be doing a heck of a lot of stuff with multimedia reinforcement learning. But now we're finding that some of the AI giants have actually done the work for us. So, I have just been very happy that we started out simple. And we looked at what is our core problem, which is, you know, what's the best way to train people? And how do we do that with the least amount of effort and the most amount of impact? And the key to it is customer obsession. And this is something I learned at Amazon as their first principle.
And many of the experiences that I brought from places like Amazon and other big tech is, how do I understand the needs of the customer? What problems do they have, and what would make this a more playful experience? And, in this case, I wanted to design for curiosity. And the thing that I like to say about that is AI chose its symbol of the spark really smartly. And I think the spark is what people want in life. And the spark is exploring, and it's finding something. And you see this kind of spark of life, this learning, and you discover it. You create more from it. You share it. It's enlightening. It's inspirational. It makes people excited. It's something that they want to share. It's inventing. It's creation.
I think that's what we wanted to have people experience in our learning, rather than my own experience in computer-based training, which was sitting in front of a flashified PowerPoint with multiple choice questions and having the text read to me. And, you know, spending 40 hours doing that was kind of soul-killing. And what I really wanted to do was be engaged and start learning through experience. And that's what came down to our MVP 1 is, how do we begin to change the way that training occurs? How can we change the student experience and still provide for the institutional needs to get people on the floor and caring for people? And that was our first priority.
And that's how we began to make hard decisions about how we were going to develop from MVP 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 because we had all the big ideas immediately. And part of that is because I had created a package like this back in 2004 for a five-state regional care provider in the Midwest. Back then, I was designing what could only be called a finite game. I'm designing in Flash for web. I'm doing decision trees with dialogue, and it's much like a video game, but a serious game. It's getting the assessment correct in the interactions and embedding the learning in the interaction and then being able to judge that and provide useful feedback for the player.
And what this did was it made it possible for them to have interactive learning through doing in the form of a video game, which was a little bit more fun than studying a textbook or taking a computer-based test. It also allowed the health system a little bit more focus on the patients because what was happening is that they would be taking their best people off the floor and taking a partial schedule to train these new people. But 45% of those that they were training were leaving within the first 30 days. So, the game was actually an approach to providing that interaction as a guided apprenticeship without taking their best people off the floor into part-time schedules and the idea that they might not even be there in 30 days.
So, that's kind of a lot to describe, but I would say that the focus on the MVP 1 was, this is the problem that we're going to help you with. We're going to get people out of the seats and onto the floor, off the screen, caring for people. And we're going to guide them through this guided apprenticeship, which allows for contextual computing and interaction, as we've worked with comparing across, like, OpenAI, Anthropic, Google, Mistral, Grok, trying these different approaches to AI, figuring out which models work best within this context. And, hopefully, when we walk in and we're sitting with an exec, we get a "Wow," [laughs]. And that's the big thing with our initial technology. We really want a wow.
I shared this with a former instructor at the University of Minnesota, Joe Gaugler, and I said...I showed him, and he's like, "Wow, why isn't anybody doing this with nursing and such?" And I said, "Well, we are," you know, that's what I was hoping he would say. And that's the thing that we want to see when we walk into somebody's office, and we show them, and they say, "Wow, this is cool." "Wow, we think it's cool. And we hope you're going to want to go on this journey with us." And that's what MVP 1 should do for us is solve what seems like a little problem, which is a finite game-type technology, but turn it into an infinite game technology, which is what's possible with AI and machine learning.
WILL: I love, you know, you're talking about your background, being a teacher, and in gaming, and I can see that in your product, which is awesome. Because training can be boring, especially if it's just reading or any of those things. But when you make it real life, when you put someone, I guess that's where the quote comes from, you put them in the game, it's so much better. So, for you, with your teacher background and your gaming background, was there a personal experience that you had that brought out your passion for caregiving?
BROCK: You know, my mom is a nurse. She has always been into personal development. By the time I was in sixth grade, I was going to CPR classes with her while she was [inaudible 19:22] her nursing thing [laughs]. So, I was invited to propose a solution for the first version of CareTrainer, which had a different name back in 2004, which we sold. That led to an invitation to work and support the virtual clinic for the University of Minnesota Medical School, which is no longer a thing. The virtual clinic that is the medical school is still one of the best in the country, a virtual stethoscope writing grants as an academic for elder care.
And I would have to say my personal story is that at the end of their lives, I took care of both my maternal grandmother in her home while I was going to college. And then, I took care of my paternal grandfather while I was going to college. And, you know, those experiences were profound for me because I was able to sit down and have coffee with them, tell jokes, learn about their lives. I saw the stories that went with the pictures.
And I think one of the greatest fears that I saw in many of the potential customers that I've spoken to is at the end of a loved one's life that they didn't learn some of the things that they had hoped from them. And they didn't have the stories that went with all the pictures in the box, and that's just an opportunity missed.
So, I think those are some of the things that drive me. It's just that connection to people. And I think that's what makes us humane is that compassion, that wanting to understand, and, also, I think a desire to have compassion and to be understood. And I think that's where gaming and play are really important because making mistakes is part of play. And you can make lots of mistakes and have lots of ways to solve a problem in a game. Whereas in computer-based training and standardized tests, which I used to address as a teacher, there's typically one right answer, and, in life, there is rarely a right answer [laughs].
CHAD: Well, and not really an opportunity to learn from mistakes either. Like, you don't necessarily get an opportunity on a standardized test to review the answers you got wrong in any meaningful way and try to learn from that experience.
BROCK: Have you ever taken one of those tests and you're like, well, that's kind of right, but I think my answer is better, but it's not here [laughter]? I think what we really want from schools is creativity and innovation. And when we're showing kids that there's just a right answer, we kind of take the steam out of their engine, which is, you know, well, what if I just explore this and make mistakes?
And I remember, in high school, I had an art teacher who said, "Explore your mistakes." Maybe you'll find out that their best is intentional. Maybe it's a feature, not a bug [laughs]. I think when I say inculcate play or inspire play, there's a feeling of psychological safety that we can be vulnerable, that we can explore, we can discover; we can create, and we can share.
And when people say, "Oh, well, that's stupid," and you can say, "Well, I was just playing. I'm just exploring. I discovered this. I kind of messed around with a little bit, and I wanted to show you." And, hopefully, the person backs off a little bit from their strong statement and says, "Oh, I can see this and that." And, hopefully, that's the start of a conversation and maybe a startup, right [laughs]?
CHAD: Well, there are so many opportunities in so many different industries to have an impact by introducing play. Because, in some ways, I feel like that may have been lost a little bit in so many sort of like addressing problems at scale or when scaling up to particular challenges. I think we trend towards standardization and lose a little bit of that.
BROCK: I agree. I think humans do like continuity and predictability. But what we find in product is that when we can pleasantly surprise, we're going to build a customer base, you know, that doesn't come from, you know, doing the same thing all the time that everybody else does. That's kind of the table stakes, right? It works. But somebody is going to come along that does it in a more interesting way. And people are going to say, "Oh."
It's like the arts and crafts effect in industrialization, right? Everybody needs a spoon to eat soup, a lot of soup [laughs]. And somebody can make a lot of spoons. And somebody else says, "Well, I can make spoons, too." "And how do I differentiate?" "Well, I've put a nice scrollwork design on my spoon. And it's beautiful, versus this other very plain spoon. I'll sell it to you for a penny more." And most people will take the designed thing, the well-designed thing that provides some beauty and some pleasure in their life. And I think that's part of what I described as the spark is that realization that we live in beauty, that we live in this kind of amazing place that inspires wonder when we're open to it.
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WILL: You mentioned gamifying the training and how users are more involved. It's interesting because I'm actually going through this with my five-year-old. We're trying to put him in kindergarten, and he loves to play. And so, if you put him around a game, he'll learn it. He loves it. But most of the schools are like, workbooks, sit down; focus, all of those things.
And it probably speaks to your background as being a Montessori teacher, but how did you come up with gamifying it for the trainee, I guess you could say? Like, how did you come up with that plan? Because I feel like in the school systems, a lot of that is missing because it's like, like you said, worksheets equal that boring PowerPoint that we have to sit down and read and stuff like that. So, how did you come up with the gamifying it when society is saying, "Worksheets, PowerPoints. Do it this way."
BROCK: I think that is something I call the adult convenience model. Who's it better for: the person who has to do the grading and the curriculum design, or the kid doing the learning? And I think that, in those cases, the kid doing the learning misses out. And the way that we validate that behavior is by saying, "Well, you've got to learn how to conform. You've got to learn how to put your own interests and drives aside and just learn how to focus on this because I'm telling you to do it." And I think that's important, to be able to do what you're asked to do in a way that you're asked to do it. But I think that the instructional model that I'm talking about takes much more up-front thought.
And where I came from with it is studying the way that I like to learn. I struggled in school. I really did. I was a high school dropout. I went to junior college in Cupertino, and I was very surprised to find out that I could actually go to college, even though I hadn't finished high school. And I began to understand that it's very different when you get to college, so much more of it is about giving you an unstructured problem that you have to address. And this is the criteria under which you're going to solve the problem and how I'm going to grade you. And these are the qualities of the criteria, and what this is, is basically a rubric.
We actually see these rubrics and such in products. So, for example, when I was at American Family, we had this matrix of different insurance policies and all the different things in the column based upon rows that you would get underneath either economy, standard, or performance. And I think it was said by somebody at Netflix years ago; there's only two ways to sell bundled and unbundled. The idea is that there were these qualities that changed as a gradient or a ratio as you moved across this matrix. And the price went up a little bit for each one of those qualities that you added into the next row or column, and that's basically a rubric.
And when we begin to create a rubric for learning, what we're really doing is moving into a moment where we say, "This is the criteria under which I'm going to assess you. These are the qualities that inform the numbers that you're going to be graded with or the letter A, B, or C, or 4, 3, 2, 1. What does it mean to have a 4? Well, let me give you some qualities." And one of the things that I do in training companies and training teams is Clapping Academy. You want to do that together?
WILL: Yeah, I would love to.
BROCK: Would you like to try it here? Okay. Which one of you would like to be the judge?
WILL: I'll do it.
BROCK: Okay. As the judge, you're going to tell me thumbs up or thumbs down. I'm going to clap for you. Ready? [Claps] Thumbs up or thumbs down?
CHAD: [laughs]
WILL: I say thumbs up. It was a clap [laughs].
BROCK: Okay. Is it what you were expecting?
WILL: No, it wasn't.
BROCK: Ah. What are some of the qualities of clapping that we could probably tease out of what you were expecting? Like, could volume or dynamics be one?
WILL: Yeah, definitely. And then, like, I guess, rhythm of it like music, like a music rhythm of it.
BROCK: Okay. In some cases, you know, like at jazz and some churches, people actually snap. They don't clap. So, hands or fingers or style. So, if we were to take these three categories and we were to break them 4, 3, 2, 1 for each one, would a 4 be high volume, or would it be middle volume for you?
WILL: Oh, wow. For that, high volume.
BROCK: Okay. How about rhythm? Would it be 4 would be really fast; 1 would be really slow? I think slow would be...we have this cultural term called slow clapping, right [laughter]? So, maybe that would be bad, right [laughter]? A 1 [laughter]? And then, style maybe this could be a non-numerical category, where it could just be a 1 or a 2, and maybe hands or slapping a thigh or snapping knuckles. What do you think?
WILL: I'm going off of what I know. I guess a clap is technically described as with hands. So, I'll go with that.
BROCK: Okay, so a 4 would be a clap. A 3 might be a thigh slap [laughter]. A 2 might be a snap, and a 1 would be air clap [laughter].
WILL: Yep.
BROCK: Okay. So, you can't see this right now. But let's see, if I were to ask you what constitutes a 12 out of 12 possible, we would have loud, fast, hand-to-hand clap. I think we could all do it together, right [Clapping]? And that is how it works. What I've just done is I've created criteria. I've created gradients or qualities. And then, we've talked about what those qualities mean, and then you have an idea of what it might look like into the future. You have previewed it.
And there's a difference here in video games. A simulation is where I copy you step by step, and I demonstrate, in performance, what's been shown to me to be accurate to what's been shown to me. Most humans don't learn like that. Most of us learn through emulation, which is we see that there's an outcome that we want to achieve, and we see how it starts. But we have to improvise between the start and the end. In a book by Michael Tomasello on being human...he's an anthropologist, and he studies humans, and he studied other primates like great apes. And he talks about emulation as like the mother using a blade of grass, licking it, and putting it down a hole to collect ants so that she can eat the ants.
And oftentimes, the mother may have their back to her babies. And the babies will see the grass, and they'll see that she's putting it in her mouth, but they won't see the whole act. So, they've just [inaudible 33:29] through trial and error, see if they can do it. And this is the way an earlier paper that I wrote in studying kids playing video games was. We start with trial and error. We find a tactic that works for us. And then, in a real situation, there might be multiple tactics that we can use, and that becomes a strategy. And then, we might choose different strategies for different economic benefits.
So, for example, do I want to pay for something with pennies or a dollar, or do I want a hundred pennies to carry around? Or would I rather have a dollar in a game, right? We have to make this decision of, what is the value of it, and what is the encumbrance of it? Or if it's a shooting game, am I going to take out a road sign with a bazooka when I might need that bazooka later on? And that becomes economic decision-making.
And then, eventually, we might have what's called top site, which is, I understand that the game has these different rules, opportunities, roles, and experiences. How do I want to play? For example, Fallout 4 was a game that I really enjoyed. And I was blown away when I found out that a player had actually gone through the Final Boss and never injured another non-player character in the game. They had just done the whole thing in stealth. And I thought that is an artistic way to play. It's an expression. It's creative. It's an intentional way of moving through the game.
And I think that when we provide that type of independent, individual expression of learning, we're allowing people to have a unique identity, to express it creatively, and to connect in ways that are interesting to other people so that we can learn from each other. And I think that's what games can do.
And one of the hurdles that I faced back in 2004 was I was creating a finite game, where what I had coded in decision trees, in dialogue, in video interactions, once that was there, that was done. Where we're at now is, I can create an infinite game because I've learned how to leverage machine learning in order to generate lots of different contexts using the type of criteria and qualities that I described to you in Clapping Academy, that allow me to evaluate many different variations of a situation, but with the same level of expectation for professionalism, knowledge and expertise, communication, compassion, curiosity. You know, these are part of the eight elements of what is valued in the nursing profession.
And when we have those rubrics, when we have that matrix, we begin to move into a new paradigm in teaching and learning because there's a much greater latitude and variety of how we get up the mountain. And that's one of the things that I learned as a teacher is that every kid comes in differently, but they're just as good. And every kid has a set of gifts that we can have them, you know, celebrate in service to warming up cold spots.
And I think that sometimes kids are put into situations, and so are adults, where they're told to overcome this cold spot without actually leveraging the things that they're good at. And the problem with that is, in learning sciences, it's a transfer problem, which is if I learn it to pass the test, am I ever going to apply it in life, or is it just going to be something that I forget right away? And my follow-ups on doing classroom and learning research is that it is usually that. They learned it for the test. They forgot it, and they don't even remember ever having learned it.
And the greatest gift that I got, having been a teacher, was when my wife and I would, I don't know, we'd be somewhere like the grocery store or walking out of a Target, and a couple of young people would come up and say, "Yo, Mr. Dubbs," And I'd be like, "Hey [laughs]!" And they're like, "Hey, man, you remember when we did that video game class and all that?" And I was like, "Yeah, you were so good at that." Or "Remember when we made those boats, and we raced them across the pool?" "Yeah, yeah, that was a lot of fun, wasn't it?" And I think part of it was that I was having as much fun doing the classes and the lessons as they were doing it.
And it's kind of like a stealth learning, where they are getting the experience to populate these abstract concepts, which are usually tested on these standardized choice tests. And it's the same problem that we have with scaling a technology. Oftentimes, the way that we scale is based on conformity and limited variation when we're really scaling the wrong things. And I think it's good to be able to scale a lot of the tasks but provide great variety in the way that we can be human-supported around them.
So, sure, let's scale sales and operations, but let's also make sure that we can scope out variation in how we do sales, and how we do customer service, and how we do present our product experience. So, how do we begin to personalize in scope and still be able to scale? And I think that's what I'm getting at as far as how I'm approaching CareTrainer, and how I'm approaching a lot of the knowledge translation that we're doing for startups, and consulting with larger and medium-sized businesses on how they can use AI.
CHAD: That's awesome. Bringing it back to CareTrainer, what are some of the hurdles or cold spots that are in front of you and the business? What are the next steps and challenges in front of you?
BROCK: I think the big thing is that I spend a good two to three [laughs] hours a day reading about the advances in the tech, you know, staying ahead of the knowledge translation and the possible applications. I mean, it's hard to actually find time to do the work because the technology is moving so fast. And, like I said, we were starting to build MVP 2, and we realized, you know what, this is going to be done for us in a little while. You know, it'd be cool if we can do this bespoke. But why not buy the thing that's already there rather than creating it from scratch, unless we're going to do something really different?
I think that the biggest hurdle is helping people to think differently. And with the elder care crisis and the care crisis, I think that we really have to help people think differently about the things that we've done. I think regulation is really important, especially when it comes to health care, treatment, prescription safety. I think, though, that there are a lot of ways that we can help people to understand those regulations rather than put them in a seat in front of a monitor.
CHAD: I think people respond to, you know, when there's a crisis, different people respond in different ways. And it's a natural tendency to not want to rock the boat, not introduce new things because that's scary. And adding more, you know, something that is scary to a difficult situation already is hard for some people. Whereas other people react to a crisis realizing that we got into the crisis for a reason. And the old ways of doing things might not necessarily be the thing to get us out of it.
BROCK: Yeah, I totally agree. When I run into that, the first thought that comes to my head is, when did you stop learning [laughs]? When did you stop seeking learning? Because, for me, if I were to ever stop learning, I'd realize that I'd started dying. And that's what I mean by the spark, is, no matter what your age, as long as you're engaged in seeking out learning opportunities, life is exciting. It's an adventure. You're discovering new frontiers, and, you know, that's the spark. I think when people become complacent, and they say, "Well, this is the way we've always done it," okay, has that always served us well?
And there are a lot of cultural issues that go with this. So, for example, there are cultural expectations about the way kids learn in class. Like, kids who come from blue-collar families might say, "Hey, you know what? My kid is going to be doing drywall, or he's going to be working fixing cars, or he's going to be in construction, or why does he need to do this? Or why does she need to do that? And, as a parent, I don't even understand the homework." And then, there are the middle-class folks who say, "You know what? I'm given these things. They need to be correct, accurate, and easy to read. And that's my job. And I don't see this in my kids' curriculum."
And then, there are the creatives who say, "Hey, you know, this has nothing to do with where my kid is going. My kids are creative. They're going to have ambiguous problems that they have to come up with creative solutions for." Then you get to the executive class where, like, these elite private schools, where they say, "My kid is going to be a leader in the industry, and what they should be doing is leading groups of people through an activity in order to accomplish a goal."
And those are four different pedagogical approaches to learning.
So, I'm wondering, what is it that we expect from our caregivers? And I've got kind of a crazy story from that, where this young woman, [SP] Gemma, who was a middle school student, I gave her the option, along with my other kids, to either take a standardized test on Greek myths, or they could write their own myth. And she wrote this myth about a mortal who fell in love with a young goddess. Whenever they would wrap and embrace and kiss, a flame would occur.
One day the mother found out and says, "Oh, you've fallen in love with a mortal. Well, here you shall stay. This shall be your penance." And she wrapped her in this thread, this rope, and dipped them in wax so they would be there forever. But then the flame jumped to the top, and that is how candles were created.
And I read that, and I was...and this is, like, you know, 30 years ago, and I still have this at the top of my head. And I was like, "Gemma, that was amazing. Are you going to go to college?" And she says, "No." "No? Really? What are you going to do?" "I want to be a hairstylist." And, in my mind, my teacher mind is like, oh no, no, no, no. You [laughs] need to go to college. But then I thought about it. I thought, why wouldn't I want a smart, skilled, creative person cutting my hair? And, you know, people who cut hair make really good money [laughter].
And the whole idea is, are we actually, you know, empowering people to become their best selves and be able to explore those things? Or are we, you know, scaring them out of their futures with, you know, fear? Those are the big hurdles, which is, I'm afraid of the future. And the promise is, well, it's going to be different. But I can't assure you that it's not going to come without problems that we're going to have to figure out how to solve. And there are some who don't want the problems. They just want how it's always been.
And I think that's the biggest hurdle we face is innovation and convincing people that trying something new it may not be perfect, but it's a step in the right direction. And I think Hans Rosling in Factfulness said it very well. He said, "Things are better than they were before, but they're not great." Can we go from good to great? Sure. And what do we need to do? But we always are getting better, as long as we're continuing to adapt and create and be playful and look at different ways of doing things because now people are different, but just as good.
CHAD: Brock, I really appreciate you stopping by and bringing your creativity, and energy, and playfulness to this difficult problem of caregiving. I'm excited for what the future holds for not only CareTrainer but the impact that you're going to have on the world. I really appreciate it.
BROCK: Well, thank you for having me and letting me tell these stories, and, also, thanks for participating in Clapping Academy [laughter].
WILL: It was great.
CHAD: If folks want to get in touch with you or follow along with you, or if they work in a healthcare organization where they think CareTrainer might be right for them, where are all the places that they can do that?
BROCK: You can reach me at [email protected]. They can express interest on our website at caretrainer.ai. They can reach me at my personal website, brockdubbels.com, or connect with me on LinkedIn, because, you know, life is too short not to have friends. So, let's be friends [laughs].
CHAD: You can subscribe to the show and find notes for this entire episode along with a complete transcript at giantrobots.fm.
WILL: If you have questions or comments, email us at [email protected].
CHAD: You can find me on Mastodon at [email protected].
WILL: And you can find me on Twitter @will23larry.
This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
CHAD: Thank you again, Brock. And thank you all for listening. See you next time.
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Host Chad Pytel interviews Monik Pamecha, the Co-Founder and CEO of Toma, a company specializing in AI for the automotive industry. Monik discusses how Toma automates phone calls for car dealerships, enhancing customer service and streamlining interactions. Despite advancements in digital communication, phone calls remain crucial in the automotive sector, and Toma leverages AI to improve these experiences significantly.
Monik shares his journey in the tech industry, detailing Toma's evolution from experimenting with different AI applications to focusing on voice AI. He explains the challenges and successes faced along the way, highlighting how AI technology has matured since his early work with chatbots in 2016. The conversation reveals how Toma's voice AI quickly gained user traction, validating their focus on this innovative technology.
The episode also delves into the practical implementation of Toma's AI solutions in the automotive industry. Monik emphasizes the importance of integrating AI with existing dealership software and the gradual rollout process to ensure effectiveness. He discusses the need for clear communication about AI's role in customer interactions, reflecting diverse responses across different demographics. Monik's insights provide a compelling look at the future of AI in automotive customer service.
Toma (https://www.toma.so/)
Follw Toma on X (https://twitter.com/toma_voice), LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/tomavoice/), or Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/tomavoiceai/).
Follow Monik Pamecha on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/monikp/).
Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/).
Transcript:
CHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And I'm joined today by Monik Pamecha, Co-Founder and CEO of Toma, which provides AI for the automotive industry. Monik, thanks for joining me.
MONIK: Hey, Chad, thanks for having me.
CHAD: Obviously, in fact, as evidenced by the guest list that we've had over the last few months, a lot of companies are either integrating AI into their products or starting new companies. And you've been around doing AI for quite a while now. Tell us about Toma.
MONIK: Yeah. So, Toma automates phone calls for the automotive industry right now, and we build a lot of different AI products as well. It's an interesting market, but one of the leading users of phone calls for doing business. So, a lot of the business, which is buying cars, you know, the first touch happens over the phone, you know, people bringing in their cars for service, getting updates, and all that, like, mostly happens over the phone, even though you have had websites and apps and all of these around.
And to give you, like, an idea of scale, like, there are 290 million cars in the U.S. alone, which is, like, about 90% of the population has at least one car. So, scale is massive, and Toma is making that experience of getting service and just dealing with anything related to automotive, like, 100 times better.
CHAD: So, I would encourage people to go to the website and check it out, because, I have to admit, I was a little skeptical, at first, about how good the phone call could actually be. And I was impressed by how natural it was, how it was able to respond in the video demos that I saw. So, how did you know that this was going to be possible?
MONIK: I think a lot of it comes from our own experiences, I mean, not with automotive, but with technology. So, I've been in tech for a long time. I mean, I started writing code when I was, I think, 11 or 12, a similar story for my co-founders as well. But I've been doing machine learning research as well in the past. In fact, this was in 2016 when I wrote a paper on this as well, and we built a chatbot that was based on generative models. And, at the time, in 2016, it was really funky. Like, Google had come up with something called Sequence to Sequence, and we were using that to train it on a little bit of data that we had, and we had something that kind of worked.
And, at the time, I was thinking that, I mean, when you were working with that, you'd see it, like, go off the rails and, like, do something really stupid. It couldn't even get grammar right. And, at the time, I saw all the holes that I was like, if somebody plugged these, like, you know, this would be phenomenal. Like, this is what it takes for it to work, you know, these are the places, more from a practical experience, right? Like, if you had to take it to production, like, what would you need to fix?
And then, six years later, I see that things actually started picking up, right, like, they actually fixed all those holes. And it came back to me, and I was like, all right, this is the time. You know, those were the issues. They're all fixed. Now you can go ahead and build. So, I think a lot of it came from experience as to like, all right, this is what we should build, or this is why we should build, like, in terms of the technology. But we didn't really arrive at this idea, so to speak, you know, at least as a founding team. It was a lot of pivots.
CHAD: What was the original sort of idea that you said, okay, we're going to start a company to do this?
MONIK: Well, that was very different from this very, very different. So, my co-founder and I, like, most founders, like, the first thing they do is they try to look for problems that they themselves have. And we're like, huh, looks like...what do we have in common? We have some chronic conditions, and we've used diet to, you know, manage them. So, maybe let's build a tool to help, you know, patients manage conditions with, you know, diet recommendations. And we spent six months on that, and it went absolutely nowhere.
Also, I think consumer products are just different. They require a different kind of thinking. But, you know, we were just trying to throw something on the wall and pray it sticks. And, you know, it was honestly pretty miserable because we got banned on a bunch of communities on Reddit and Facebook trying to promote it. And, like, all the people who tried our product they just never came back again, and, you know, things like that when you have something that people don't want, right? So, we see that side.
I mean, and after that, we go ahead and we try to do...I think it was during it, I don't know, like, when you get a sense of, like, something's not going to work, where, like, then we realized maybe we should stick to what we know best, which is, you know, we're both technical. So, maybe we should do something that's, you know, more relying on those skills than something entirely different, which I think Y Combinator calls it founder-market fit. I think that's also very true. Of course, you can, like, build something for a business you know nothing about, but there must be some compatibility.
So, yeah, we started with that, kept on experimenting. And then, I think, at some point, we were so annoyed that we made, you know, a list on Google Sheets. And we're like, all right, let's just, you know, vomit out 10 ideas that we have had, and let's write them all, and let's go after them one by one. Let's spend two weeks until we hit something that, you know, maybe we think has legs. And the third idea or the fourth idea on that was building something with voice AI. And, at the time, even that was, like, just a horizontal platform. That was it. All right, so we go ahead and commit to that.
So, if we go through the list, try the first two or three ideas, I think the first thing was...then we went on the other extreme where we're like, all right, let's do something we do all day long, which is, as engineers, we are on call. So, you know, even at, I don't know, 2:00 a.m. in the night if your system is down, you get a pager on your phone saying, "Get on the computer and fix it." And we're like, how could we make that better? That was the first thing on that list. We spent some time trying to do it and, again, we kind of get that feeling.
I think the more you fail, I guess, the better you get at detecting failure. I don't know about success but failure for sure it works like that. I think the third or the fourth idea was voice AI, and then we go ahead. We hack a prototype over a weekend and then put it out on...again, the communities that we know how to market were, like, Facebook groups and Reddit. And it picks up. Like, within, like, 3 days, we had 200 demo calls set up. And that just blew our minds because having been on the other side, we're like, oh, this is what it feels like when people kind of want something, what you have. I mean, it's still not clear, right? But --
CHAD: And you put it out there as automated voice assistant for businesses?
MONIK: No, actually what we did [laughs], I mean, nobody will want to click that if you put it like that [laughter]. You know, just out of curiosity, I was like, "Hey, you know, I've built this thing. It does this, you know, what do you think? Do you think this has any use for you?" And that's it. Like, people are, you know, messaging me nonstop, like, DMing me that, "Can you please share it with me? You know, I run this business. This might be helpful."
It was, like, more genuine. Like, I was just exploring, but, you know, that was a question that I posed. And that had, like, so many people show up, and they're like, "How about you just give us that and we can make money off of this?" And then, we started, you know, digging deeper, and we're like, oh, okay, it looks like you have so many manual processes and across industries. So, we had, like, some people from healthcare, some people from, like, you know, MLMs, multi-level marketing, so many different industries, optometrists, some in construction.
Anyway, so we're, like, thinking at that point, huh, okay. Maybe there is something here. Again, no mention of automotive, no mention of dealerships, nothing. We had a single dealership then. And I would say this was, like, about six months. I don't even know how many months ago, but, like, a couple of months ago. I think, at the time, is when we applied to Y Combinator as well.
CHAD: So, you applied to Y Combinator with the voice idea.
MONIK: Right. And we put something out there. I forget if it was the healthcare idea or the voice idea, but it's probably one of the two. I mean, that's also the other thing about Y Combinator. I think they don't really focus on ideas as much as they just focus on teams, which I think is probably the best practice. You know, we pivoted again [laughs].
But yeah, so we did voice AI, and then spent some time just trying to do everything, right? Trying to build a horizontal layer for voice, where building assistance for all kinds of businesses. And, you know, one of the businesses, at the time, was a dealership. I always like to think of this as an arranged marriage, where, you know, we have the customer. We kind of work through it --
CHAD: So, you had an actual dealership that you were partnered with as sort of a expert in the industry?
MONIK: Our first customer, right. And they were very progressive dealers, so they're always trying new things. And, at the time, we were working with a bank. We were working with some healthcare locations as well. We had some construction industry... whatnot. And we were going crazy trying to build something because everybody had these different requirements. And then, in practice, like, if you push AI out in the wild, to make it work, you need a lot of things, like deep domain expertise being one of them.
So, that realization is happening, you know, where we're coming to terms with that. And, at the same time, it works really well for the dealership, and they bring another customer. And they're like, "Oh, they also want to use it," and we're like, "Okay, sure. We'll turn it on." Then we do it. And then, it works again. And then, they bring more customers. And then, we're like, wait a minute, you know, like, we're not doing any outreach. We're not pushing out anything, and it seems like customers want it. And then, there are these other places where we're struggling so much.
Like, even with healthcare, you know, the regulations in banking and healthcare they slow down, you know, any sort of, like, AI implementations. So, even that world was very different with the automotive space. And you kind of do more of it and then you're like, oh, okay, looks like there is something here, and then we just decide to double down on that space. And then, we go further deep in and you realize, oh --
CHAD: Did Y Combinator...that can be a difficult decision for founders to make. So, did being in Y Combinator help you sort of give you the push to make that kind of bold decision?
MONIK: At least from our experience, it's always been that they're, like, get to the truth very quickly, whatever it is, and then make a decision. Do not delay it. I think we were, in fact, slow to do that. I think they were probably pushing people to do it more because we saw companies pivot in our batch, like, two times, three times right before demo day, which is the end of the program. Like, two weeks before, they just completely changed the company, and that's completely okay.
CHAD: So, how does an implementation actually happen? How does it roll out to a new customer?
MONIK: I mean, this is also very new, right? I think as you come across new customers, you have to adapt the process. But the essence of it is that you first have some data to start, which is, for example, for us, we work with a bunch of call recordings because a lot of our customers are already recording a lot of their calls. So, that gives you, like, some data as to what the experience is like today. Then the next thing is you get an idea of what you know your customers want the experience to be like. And then, you're basically now figuring out the delta between the two.
And then, you're configuring the AI agents, making sure, testing it. And then, you have, like, a period of, like, a week or so where you get through all of that. Then you work through integrations with existing softwares. That also, by the way, is another, like, I would say automotive is a sleeping giant. Like, an auto dealership, on average, like, per month will be spending $50, 000 on software.
CHAD: Wow.
MONIK: Because the whole business runs on software—everything starting from sales, inventory, parts, service, everything, repair orders—all of it comes through that.
CHAD: Now, is there a single common platform that a lot of dealers are using?
MONIK: Unfortunately, no. There are some major players; CDK Global is one of them, which actually was hacked recently. And it's in, like, over 15, 000 dealerships, and all of them shut down.
CHAD: Wow.
MONIK: Like, they just couldn't do any business, and they had to come up with creative workarounds. So, it was pretty painful, kind of, like, a COVID, you know, COVID moment for them. And then, yeah, we've been trying to help our dealers, whoever used that software, to, you know, again, come out with workarounds, where the AI is actually capturing all the information. And, you know, instead of dumping it into that system, it's, you know, finding workarounds on how to get it to our dealers. But yeah, so you integrate with them. That is, like, another major step. And they're, you know, they're not the most tech-forward companies so, you know, that can be a little challenging.
CHAD: Right. So, they use a lot of software, but they're not necessarily tech for...they probably don't have big IT departments and that kind of thing. And then, the users are probably non-technical.
MONIK: Correct. Yeah. The thing about dealers, I think, is that they're so plugged into the business, like, they know everything that is happening in the business. Everybody knows what the bottom line looks, what really will move the needle, what is a good customer experience. They may not be technical, but I don't think it even matters. That's the thing.
But yeah, we were talking about, like, the process, so it takes a couple of weeks So, you do, you know, you get all the information from them as to what needs to be done. You integrate into the systems. And then, the next thing that you do is you start slowly, where, for example, when we start taking phone calls for them, we initially start with off hours and overflow. So, when nobody's able to pick up a phone call, we get the phone calls. And that's how you get, like, some training data at the beginning in a safe manner.
And then, as the volume increases, you know, you get more confident, and you roll it out to a larger audience. But I think the key thing here is it has to be a gradual process because, even for the customer, it's something so new, like, to have a full-fledged conversation. Like, you can have a phone tree where it's, like, press one; press two. You're used to that kind of stuff, and that's been around for 15 years, and it still is, you know. And it is not the most natural thing, but it continues to exist. So, this is the next, you know, natural evolution of that interface where it's more free-flowing and, you know, less annoying.
CHAD: Do all of your customers...when the AI agent answers, does it say it's an AI agent?
MONIK: I mean, our recommendation is to always say that. I mean, it's up to the customer, eventually, if they want to say that or not. And, in fact, it is pretty interesting. Demographics make a huge difference. Like, we're live in, you know, all the states, not all but I would say, like, all the major states. And the way people behave with AI agents is so different, you know, Florida, and Michigan, and California, like, we see the call quality. We see the metrics. We see how annoyed people are or how happy they are and things like that. The way they talk is so different.
And one of the parameters in that is actually, you know, letting them know that it is an AI or not as well. So, we tweak that based on, you know, where we are. But for the most part, we always say that because we want to set the expectations, right? Because, initially, when we didn't, the most popular question on the call was like, "Are you a human?"
CHAD: [laughs]
MONIK: And the fact that people are asking it was also pretty insane, right?
CHAD: Right. They could sort of tell that something was different.
MONIK: Yeah, if you have, like, a long enough conversation because, obviously, it's not human, right? And then, you go, like, five turns into the conversation, and then you realize, okay, it sounds like a human, like, you know, it's speaking pretty quickly. It's giving me the kind of answers I want. But, like, this thing is strange because, you know, humans have a personality now.
Like, with AI, like, a lot of the systems, I mean, you can build personality into it, but it still doesn't have a personality, like, the truth is still that. And it does show up, you know, in interesting ways. And, of course, there can be, you know, some sort of mechanistic issues, you know, like, whatever, right, like, what the customer is really used to and then what you actually say. I think the best practice is to almost always declare, like, it's an AI. And that has improved call quality significantly.
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CHAD: Did you train your own models?
MONIK: Yeah, we collected enough data to be able to do that, and we have trained a lot of different components and different models. So, when you think of it, there's not, like, one model that does the whole thing. You have, like, a lot of these small, medium, and large models that do different parts. So, the voice and speech are, let's say, two components.
I think the brain of the agent is really the thing that needs the most amount of training because, you know, text to speech and voice, I mean, they have, like, you know, some limits and then, some, you know, business return. Like, after some point, like, there's not really much value to be gained there because if you can transcribe everything, you know, to a certain level of accuracy, all the regions change, you know, accents change. You can always improve. Then it's just expanding scope.
But really, with the brain of the agent, you have multiple different models that actually interact with each other, and they're not just LLMs or generative models. You have a lot of different types of things that are going. You know, you're looking up information. You are, you know, validating something. You're making sure if, you know, this is compliant with what, you know, your company's tone is, all of these happening at the same time. And then, these are the different things that you actually really need to train because that's so specific to, you know, the type of business that is happening.
CHAD: So, are you also doing your own hosting of the models, or are you using a cloud provider for that?
MONIK: Yeah, we use cloud providers. I think having a small team it's insane. I mean, you can host custom models on a lot of these providers now. And then, a lot of them even offer services for you to, like, train and, you know, they take care of the infrastructure as well. I think it's a good thing to rely on it if you're lean and small. There's only so much a few people [chuckles] can do and focus on.
CHAD: What are you most focused on right now, either from a business or a product perspective, or, you know, where's your area of biggest risk?
MONIK: Of course, there is always, you know, risk of competition. And I guess the real question is, like, where...a lot of popular AI companies get asked this as well, right? Like, what is your moat, right? And then, I mean, I think that is the most obvious risk, right? Where, like, what is stopping anybody else from doing what you're doing, right? And there are certain parts of it, which, you know, you can de-risk. Like, having data and having proprietary data is, like, one of the biggest factors in this, right, of de-risking this.
I mean, there's also like, you know, the risk of, let's say, especially in our industry, is, like, taking technology to an industry where, you know, consumers are not pro-technology. You know, they don't want to jump at the best thing that there is, right, especially customer service generally suffers from that, right? Like, people anytime they hear a bot or something and they're like, "Ah, representative agent." So, there's, like, some underlying risk in, you know, human tendencies as to what they want.
But, again, to think about it, like, you know, IVRs, which are these interactive voice response systems, they've been around for so long. Nothing about it is natural. It is completely alien to how we interact, but they've been around for so long. So, a lot of times, like, this innovation is actually pushed down from the business to the consumer and not the other way around. It may not be the best experience. It's getting there.
So, it's that battle between the two, which I think can delay implementations. You know, some people, like, one of our customers, at one point, we went through the entire deal. And I think the owner of the dealership group just said, "I don't believe in AI." Now, you know, like, it's pretty hard, right? Like, you have the metrics. You have the numbers. You're generating value, but the belief is strongly held. And then, at that point, you know, there's nothing you can do.
CHAD: Do you know why they were saying that? Was it like, I don't believe it as in I don't think it can do it, or I don't believe in it as in, like, it's against my ethics, or something like that?
MONIK: I feel like it's probably because they've been burned by past experiences of AI. Like, I think chatbots have been around for so long, and a lot of people in the automotive industry have used them. Now, they used to suck. And as I remember in 2016 as well, you know, over the few years that came, like, it was still pretty terrible. So, I think it's some muscle memory from that.
And then, also, I think AI has been hyped a lot, and I feel like people just generally discount anything that is hyped. And the opinion is that let's just wait for the dust to settle, and then we'll just pick the winners. So, it's also possible, right? On the adoption curve, like, there's you just hit some people who are probably not on the early or even the mid, right? Maybe on the tail end, which I guess is completely fine and true for any tech adoption cycle.
CHAD: And it's true for any product that you're...this is not just an AI company problem. I think it's a startup thing, you know, to find the early adopters and then to move on from there. But you need those early adopters, those champions who are willing to do something new before other people.
MONIK: Exactly. And, I mean, yeah, it's just surprising to me how many early adopters, even in...like, there are almost early adopters in every industry. Every business has people who just want to see something, you know, they're just excited about it, like, they're willing to take the risk. And sometimes I'm not even sure why. But, you know, there's just that element of thrill, and then also, you know, beating the market to it and things like that.
And once you feel it, you understand the adoption curve initially. Because when you see customers, you see, ah, I see every dealership. Everybody should use us. I mean, as a naive founder, I think that that's what I used to think initially. And then, you know, over time, you get a sense of like, all right, you know, these are the types of customers that you should go after. These are the people who you should talk to first. And you build that kind of muscle as a founder and, yeah, new learnings.
CHAD: So, you started with the voice assistant. But are you moving into providing other AI-driven solutions for the automotive industry?
MONIK: Right. So, as we work with more dealers, we found out, you know, more areas that can be improved and, you know, gaps in, for example, communication. I think a lot of, like, quality of service really comes from how you can, you know, communicate with your customer. And it's not just about...you could do a good job and, you know, you could just completely destroy your, you know, quality scores because you didn't communicate well enough.
And you could do a bad service and still have a great, you know, service, you know, experience by communicating well. So, I think a lot of it is key to communication, and that's our focus: using AI to make it better. Voice is one channel. There are other channels as well. And there are a lot of, you know, communication gaps within, you know, our customers, you know, business set up as well. So, we try to bridge that gap.
CHAD: So, since you're focused on communication then, you're probably still leveraging generative AI solutions.
MONIK: Oh, a lot of it is, you know, improved by that technology. Like, so I always think, like, great products usually bring in two things, right? One is a necessary evil. Let's say, you know, something that has to be done like a phone system, for example, like, you need people to call in. You need to set up all the numbers, phone trees, whatever, routing. And then, there is AI, which makes that whole process easier.
So, I think good products usually have these two things combined, where it lets you do one nasty thing, which, you know, obviously, everybody else can do in a different way. And then, there's this one exceptional thing that you can do. And then, [inaudible 27:04] together, and it makes, like, a great offering for the business. I think that's what we're working towards.
CHAD: What do you think about the way things are right now, in general? I do think that there are some companies that are saying, "Well, that great thing is the AI," but they're not necessarily solving a problem that needs to be solved in that way.
MONIK: Yeah. I mean, I think to that part, right, the hype is real. Even in my mind, I just discount, like, 40% of the things that people say about AI now. Like, I mean, I would say it's more true than not, like, 60%, sure, but, like, a rough number in my mind is just 40%, and people, like, exaggerate. But, I mean, that's not because, I guess, they're lying. It's because they're, you know, hopeful, right? Because nobody knows, like, in practice. Like, I mean, now that we've done, you know, hundreds and thousands of minutes of AI phone calls, like, that has, like, you know, added to my judgment. And I kind of know, like, you know, what is possible and what is not with even the most cutting-edge stuff there is.
I think a lot is possible. But it's unfair to say that, oh yeah, it's as good as a human, for example, right? Like, in certain use cases, that just is not true. It's a different paradigm. It's just a different design interaction that has never existed before. There's nothing human about it. You can try to force it to be as human as you want but then it is forced human. Like, it is still not natural because it just isn't.
CHAD: So, I'm getting the sense then that that might not be your north star. That might not be what you're shooting for.
MONIK: Yeah, not at all, no. At the end of the day, a tool should drive business outcomes, right? And then, to drive business outcomes, you got to understand what your customer and their users want, for example. You know, I can imagine a world where people will say, you know, when a human picks up the phone, and they're like, "No, I don't want to talk to you. Can you transfer me to a, you know, the virtual agent?" Like, it will happen, right? And it won't be natural. Like, I do not think it will be natural, and it will be different.
Because imagine, like, a human having access to all the information at the same time. Like, how would they behave, right? Like, humans behave in a serial manner, and then there is, like, some simplicity to some interactions and some complexity to others. That's not the case with, you know, all the information you have. Like, I already know, for example, if you call me, right, and I'm an AI agent for your business, I know so much about you already, right?
Like, I'm not going to act the way, you know, an agent would act who's, like, now pulling up something on the screen, and they're like, "Give me a moment," and then they're reading through your stuff. Like, I already know all the issues you've had, all the conversations you had in the past. So, now I know what's exactly wrong, and, in fact, I'll give you the answer straight up, right? Because I can kind of get ahead and figure out what you really want.
CHAD: There's an example in one of the example videos I watched or, actually, I was trying to think, would I ever want to not talk to a person, right? There's an example in one of your videos where you can see the person does exactly what I do on a call. They say their email address is their first name dot last name at gmail.com. And that's not exactly what mine is, but it's like that.
And I say that, and most of the people that I talk to on the phone when I say that they...and I think it might be because they're not on a screen that has my first name and my last name on it anymore. Oftentimes, they don't remember my name, or can't see it, or can't understand what I'm saying. But the AI has all the information, and it understood what you were saying, and it just gets it instantly.
MONIK: Exactly. Another example of that, right? Let's say, like, you called six times, right? I mean, usually what happens in call centers often is that, like, you get thrown around, different agents pick up, and then maybe the data comes there. I've heard that, like, on existing recordings of, like, humans, where it's like, "I'm calling for the sixth time. Like, do you need me to repeat the same thing again?"
And then, they go through the same flow again because that is the policy, for example. And then, they're just so annoyed. Like, with AI, there's no such thing. It's just, you know, one model that's consistent, that's listening to everything. And it's like, even before you say...like, "I see you've called for the sixth time. You know, I'm really sorry that this is happening," and, you know, whatever. Just simple things like that.
CHAD: I'm just thinking about those experiences that I've had with customer service that have been that. And, yeah, that's why I think that this is really, you know, has a lot of potential. So, how do you sort of, you know, critics of AI will often point to, like, putting people out of work, right? How do you think about that?
MONIK: Yeah. I always, like, to pin it down to, like, evidence, and, I think, at this point, I have enough to talk about this. I think what we've seen with our technology is that a lot of it leads to repurposing of existing talent. So, for example, there are, you know, business development companies that dealerships rely on for inbound and outbound calling.
Now, when we free their time up from inbound, like, that's what we focus on right now, and take off all the mundane tasks, like, the agents that they have are now free to do a lot more outbound, which actually drives more sales or, you know, gives a better experience because, you know, people are checking up on them and saying, "Okay, how was your service a week later," right? And the person feels really good. And if there's any problem, they address it, whatever, right?
So, I think there is more stuff to do than humans will ever be able to do, and our desires have no end. We will continue to pursue that. So, as you free up something...it's like a race which has no finish line. You get a little bit of lead, but that doesn't mean anything because now you still got to keep going and keep going, and that's what we've seen. So, you know, with service advisors, for example, who would get phone calls in the service department of the dealership all the time, now they don't get calls anymore, right? But they're able to spend more time with people in the store. So, they're actually able to upsell more.
So, this kind of efficiencies that you drive, like, they take off the stuff that, you know, you don't want to do all the time and is repeatable to some extent, and then you free them to do things that they couldn't have done before. So, it really is, you know, realizing that there is this endless amount of work that always needs to be done. And here, I took this off your plate, but you still have all this work to do. So, it's just repurposing of, like, talent that's been happening again and again.
And, I mean, there is, of course, that's not to say that there is not going to be a loss of job opportunities, things like that, because, you know, it's just part of creative destruction as it is called, right? Where anything new will create some sort of disruption and then, you know, destroy certain things, but then it creates more, you know, on a net basis. That's happening, yeah.
I mean, if you think about it, like, I mean, I remember I grew up in India. This was, like, 15 years ago, I don't know, maybe 10 years ago, too. There was somebody who would sit in the elevator, and their only job was to press a button. If you think about it, right? Like, I mean, is that job like, you know, what value is it driving? Of course, like, to some extent, right? And then, they came up with these elevators where you could punch in the numbers, you know, exact floors right at the beginning, and you just walk into the right elevator, and that's done.
So, I mean, that job obviously does not exist anymore or does not need to exist anymore, right? But, I mean, I don't know if anybody else in the world has an opinion on that job existing, for example. Like, it's just, over time, when we look back, it just seems, like, obvious that, you know, why were we doing that? We should be doing this other thing. So, I think it's just movement.
CHAD: Right. Yeah. I think it is uncomfortable in the moment but, you know, there is a certain trend to the world, aside from AI, aside even from technology, specifically of progress. And, you know, over time, positive comes from that, but that doesn't mean that there's not pain in the meantime.
MONIK: There is, yeah. Definitely, there is pain. And I think the real reason why people feel this a lot is sometimes, like, even I make that mistake myself of viewing yourself as, like, stationary in terms of, like, skills and learning. It's like, you are everything you've learned up till now. And, okay, if what I knew up until now is not going to be relevant tomorrow, then what am I going to do?
But the thing is that everybody has the capability to learn and improve, and, in fact, even that gets easier and easier with time because technology makes that easier. And then, people are able to do more things than they could do before, learn faster, for example. And it's important to not forget that we have that ability. You know, we can always change and improve, and, in fact, knowing so much makes us even better at knowing more. And that's why we've been able to adapt to every change in history so far; we always have.
You know, so that fear is natural. But I think, over time, when we all look back and we're like, oh my God, why were we doing that? You know, like, and we will all be doing different kinds of things. Like, that is guaranteed. That is going to happen. But that fear still exists, and I think that is what causes the pain. It's the anxiety of it. Like, really? Of course, you have to change, you know, tracks. That is very real, but it's not as painful as fear makes it.
CHAD: Well, speaking of growing, and changing, and improving, you mentioned that, you know, you and your co-founder are both technical. How have your roles changed as the company has progressed, and what have you learned [chuckles], and have you settled into any sort of roles?
MONIK: Yeah. So, I'm the CEO. My co-founder is a CTO. We both used to write code at the beginning. Now only one of us writes code.
CHAD: And I'm guessing it's not you [laughs].
MONIK: Yeah, it's not me. Although I do miss it sometimes, but, actually, to be honest, I don't.
CHAD: [laughs]
MONIK: I feel so happy to have found that, I mean, to have realized that. But yeah, I think, basically, I think now that I understand at least B2B business to some extent, I think you always need to have a clear split of, like, build and sell. And then, of course, there's all this additional stuff that you need to do, but I think these two distinctions need to be absolutely crystal clear because both are full-time jobs.
And more than that, you need, like, owners of those spaces, and it's very hard to jump between the two. I mean, if they are solo founders, I mean, it's incredible how they do it if they're able to do both, or they rely on AI, or they rely on, you know, consultants, or contractors, or whatever. But I think those are the two roles.
And it came, I mean, I think it was just a natural progression. It's, like, when there's more work than people, I mean, that's usually a good place to be, I think, and that's how you know something is going well. You automatically assume natural roles. Because it's in that moment of, oh no, my list is, like, growing, like, quicker than you know, something, and then I need to jump in, and then you pick up the most natural and important things to you.
And then, even if you're not good at, like, you don't have an option. You have to get better at it. For example, selling, like, I never did any sales, ever. Like, I was doing machine learning and distributed systems and whatnot. But I've come to now realize that, okay, that is something that I enjoy that I think I can learn and get better at. And everything I did before, actually, even the engineering mindset helps with sales because it's just a process. So, we kind of assumed our roles when we just had too much on our plate, and we're like, "All right, you'll do this. I'll do this. Okay, fine." And then, we just talk about it, and then, all right, we keep doing it, and then now it just becomes a routine.
CHAD: Yeah, how has your team grown?
MONIK: Well, we've been two of us now, and we're hiring for a software engineer right now. So, we've been very lean. And I think...and this is also to something that Sam Altman said. I think it was him or I don't know who said that but, you know, you'll probably see the first one-person billion-dollar company.
CHAD: Yeah, I think it was, yeah.
MONIK: And I think there is some truth to it. Like, I don't know about billion, but, like, maybe a couple of million, a couple of hundred million, like, that might happen sooner. Because we've always tried to stay very, very lean, and I think we've relied on using technology wherever possible. But yeah, that's not to say...we still need people to build. And we are looking for a software engineer because, at some point, there's only so much we can do.
CHAD: Yeah. So, what would make someone a good fit for your team in that software engineering position? What are they coming to the table with?
MONIK: Everything, I wish. No, I mean, there are some exceptional people. And I think that's exactly what we're looking for is engineers with a founder's mindset because a founder's mindset is always like, you know, give us all the information. We'll make the decisions and figure out like, you know, what needs to be done. And someone who's, of course, exceptionally skilled at technology, at writing code, at building software, but also at understanding like, you know, what to build. I think that is, like, a killer combination and that is what differentiates, like, a great extraordinary engineer from anybody else.
CHAD: Well, especially since it's going to be the second developer [chuckles], you're going to have high needs and expectations for that.
MONIK: And with startups, right? It's always a little bit of chaos, and it's people who thrive in that chaos. And that's the thing, right? I've worked in, like, a bunch of startups that actually went on to become unicorns. I worked at Turing.com, which I think is...$4 billion, something like that now. But when I joined, there were, like, you know, just 10 people. And every company has problems, you know. And there's always this chaos that ensues, you know, at every stage. But there are some type of people who, like, thrive in that. They just love it. And there are some people who complain about it.
I think the ones who complain about it lose that opportunity to grow, and they don't have the mindset to see opportunity in it. And I think those are the people who are absolute amazing, you know, future founders, you know, or even, like, great founding engineers are employees like that because they like that challenge, you know. It's like, this is wrong. Let me go fix it.
CHAD: Right. And the reverse is also true. There's a point in a company's life cycle where they need a different kind of person that is more, like, stable [laughs].
MONIK: Well, I don't know. I think I disagree with that. I think, I mean, that's when the company, you know, plateaus. Like, if you bring in more people like that, you...really, like, what is a company? It's just a collection of really smart people. The fact that OpenAI is able to do what Google cannot over the span of six years is because they just do not hire people, you know, of certain caliber, certain mindset. They just keep them out. Again, that's their policy, or even some larger companies. I think the idea is to keep that mindset going and going. It is tiring, right? But it is what drives innovation. Like, that's just the nature of it.
CHAD: Well, if what you're describing sounds like someone who's listening, or if someone's in the automotive industry and wants to learn more, where can they do that?
MONIK: Yeah, they can reach out to me, you know, my email is [email protected]. So, they could get to us.
CHAD: And you can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at [email protected]. You can find me on Mastodon at [email protected].
Monik, thank you so much for joining me and sharing the story with me.
MONIK: Thanks, Chad. This was great.
CHAD: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
Thanks so much for listening and see you next time.
AD:
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Founder Amy-Willard Cross discusses the mission and operations of Gender Fair, the first consumer rating system for gender equality. Gender Fair aims to measure and promote gender equality within consumer-facing companies by utilizing data and the UN Women Empowerment Principles. Amy highlights the importance of transparency and data-driven insights to create social change, emphasizing that gender equality in corporate practices benefits not just women but overall fairness in the workplace. Gender Fair evaluates companies across five categories: women in leadership, employee policies, diversity reporting, supplier diversity, and philanthropy for women.Amy also shares how Gender Fair has incorporated technology to increase its impact, including an app and browser extension that allow consumers to easily access company ratings on gender equality. These tools enable users to make informed purchasing decisions based on a company's gender equality practices. The app features functionalities like barcode scanning and logo recognition to provide real-time information about products. Amy emphasizes the significance of making gender equality data accessible and actionable for consumers, believing that collective consumer power can drive corporate accountability and fairness.Throughout the conversation, Amy discusses the challenges and successes of building Gender Fair, the importance of leveraging economic power for social change, and the role of technology in facilitating gender fairness. She also touches on the broader impact of Gender Fair's work in promoting fair business practices and the potential for future expansions, such as a B2B database for procurement. Gender Fair (https://www.genderfair.com/)Follow Gender Fair on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/begenderfair/), Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/GenderFair/), or Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/genderfair).Follow Amy-Willard Cross on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/amy-willard-cross-genderfair/).Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/).Transcript:CHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel, and with me today is Amy-Willard Cross, the Founder of Gender Fair, the first consumer rating system for gender equality. Amy, thank you so much for joining me.AMY-WILLARD: Well, I'm very happy to be talking to robots, giant and small. CHAD: [laughs] We'll try not to smash into each other too much on this show. I think we probably have a lot to learn from each other rather than conflicting. AMY-WILLARD: I think so. CHAD: Let's just get started by digging in a little bit to what Gender Fair actually is in terms of what we mean when we say a consumer rating system for gender equality.AMY-WILLARD: It's about data. So, I was originally a journalist. I've written for a living my whole life: books, magazines, articles [laughs], you know, radio shows. I wanted to do something to promote equality in the world. And I realized that data is one way that you can want to have commercial value. Data has value that isn't, like, just blah, blah, blogging, and also, data can create social change.So, I decided to do something like, you know, we know fair trade has created great change as has, you know, marine stewards certified. And also, I was inspired by something that the Human Rights Campaign, the LGBTQ organization, does, which is called the Guide to Corporate Equality. So, our goal is to measure how companies do on gender and then share that with the public.And I didn't just make this up. We use a set of principles called the UN Women Empowerment Principles, which look at eight different sort of areas of an organization. And so, we created metrics that are based on these UN Women Empowerment Principles and also based on what is findable in the public record. We rate consumer-facing public companies, you know, like Unilever, Procter & Gamble, the shampoos that you use, the cars that you buy, the airplanes you ride on. And we look at five major categories, such as, like, women in leadership. We look at employee policies like parental leave, and flex time, part-time, summer Fridays. I'll be curious to know what you do at Giant Robot. I bet you have good ones. And then, we also look at diversity reporting. Our company is upfront with their attempt to bring more diversity into the workforce and also supplier diversity. I don't know, are you familiar with supplier diversity, Chad? CHAD: I am because we often are a supplier, so...AMY-WILLARD: You are. So, when they ask you if you're diverse...but one way companies, especially the big companies that we rate on this public database, they can make a big impact by trying to buy from women and minority-owned businesses, right? When procurement spending is huge. That's a metric that people may not know as well, but it's one that I would encourage every business to undertake because it's not that expensive. And you could just intentionally try to move capital into communities that are not typically the most rewarded.The last category that we measure is philanthropy for women, and that's important. People say, "Well, why do you measure philanthropy?" One, because the amount of philanthropy that goes to women and girls is 1.5% of all donations, and it used to be 1.8. So, pets get more money than women. I don't know how that makes you feel, Chad, but it doesn't make me feel very happy. I mean, I suppose if you're Monster Beverage and you don't have any women clientele, one, it's okay if you don't score well on your gender metrics; just meet the basic fairness. But maybe Monster Beverage doesn't have to donate to the community of women. But if you're making billions of dollars a year selling a shampoo, I would sort of think it's fair to ask that there's some capital that goes back the other way towards the community of women. So, that's the measurement. So, we could do it...and we do it for small companies like yours, too. I imagine your company would do well from the little bit I've talked to people on your staff. It sounds like you have a lot of women in leadership. And I don't know your policies yet, but I'm sure you...I bet in Massachusetts I know you have parental leave anyway in the state, but you're a more progressive state.But I think this is something that all of your listeners can benefit from is putting a gender lens on their operations because a gender lens is a fairness lens. And it includes usually, you know, this includes people who are not just all the same men, White men. So, it helps all businesses sort of operate in a more fair way to put a gender lens on their operations. And it's not hard to do. CHAD: So, one of the things that jumped out at me, in addition to just the Gender Fair mission, as I was learning about Gender Fair, is that you have an app and a browser extension. And so, that's part of why you're on the show, not only do we care about the impact you're having.AMY-WILLARD: That's right. Yeah [laughs].CHAD: But you're a tech company. Did you always know as you got started that you were going to be making an app and a browser extension? AMY-WILLARD: Well, yes, that was the beginning because you have data. You have to make it used. You have to make it available, right? Personally, I like to see it on packages. But yes, we've had two iterations of the app, and I'm sure it could always get better and better. The current one has a barcode scanner and, also, it can look at a logo and tell you, "Oh, this soda pop is not gender fair. Try this soda pop, which is gender fair." And it can make you a shopping list and stuff like that. But, you know, tech is only good if people use it, so I hope they do. I mean, the idea is making it more accessible to people, right? I would like to have it as a filter, some easy tech. We've talked to big retailers before about having a filter put on online shopping sites, right? So, if I can choose fair-trade coffee, why can't I choose gender-fair shampoo?I like it when people can use technology to create more fairness, right? If this is a great benefit to us if technology can take this journalism we do and make it accessible and available and in your hand for someone, you can do it in the store, for Pete's sake. You could just go on the store shelf, and that's pretty liberating, isn't it? When you think of it. It should be easy to know how the companies from which you buy are doing on values that you care about. So, I never really thought of it as a tech. I wish it was better tech, but, you know, I'd need millions and millions of dollars to do that. CHAD: [laughs] Had you ever built in any of your prior companies, or had been directly responsible for the creation of an app?AMY-WILLARD: No, but I did actually once when I worked at the major women's magazine in Canada, I did hire the person who created the first online sort of magazine in Canada, and she made money, so I felt good about that. I plucked her from...she was working as sort of tech support at the major...what do you call those? Internet providers in Canada. But no, I had not, and so I relied on experts. I had a friend who was on the board of Southby, and he helped me find a tech team. I went through a few of them and, you know, it's hard to find. Like, where do you go and find people who will build something for you when you're a novice, right? As a journalist, I don't really know anything about building technology, and I certainly wasn't about to start at my age. It was definitely a voyage of discovery and learning, and I don't think I really learned much coding myself. CHAD: That's okay. AMY-WILLARD: That's okay [laughs]. CHAD: But was there something that sort of surprised you that you didn't anticipate in the process of creating a digital app? AMY-WILLARD: Oh gosh. Well, you know, of course, it's difficult, and there's lots of iterations, and there's lots of bugs. And in every business, mistakes are part of what people...in the construction industry, they'll tell you, "Mistakes are just going to happen every day. You just have to figure out how to fix each one." But, no, it's a difficult road. So yeah, I wish I could have coded it myself. I wish I could have done it myself, but I could not. But yeah, it's good learning. And, of course, you know, I think anyone who's going to start building a company with technology...if it were me now 10 years ago, I would have actually done some coding classes so I could just even communicate better to people who were building for me. But I did learn something, but not really enough. But it's a very interesting partnership, that's for sure. CHAD: And there is a lot of online classes now...AMY-WILLARD: Right [laughs].CHAD: If someone is out there thinking, oh, you know, maybe that's good advice. And there's a lot of opportunities for sort of an on-ramp, and you don't need to become an expert. AMY-WILLARD: No.CHAD: But, like you said, even just knowing the vocabulary can be helpful.AMY-WILLARD: I think that would have been useful. Yeah, definitely useful. But I definitely, like, you learn a little bit as a text-based person. You learn the rigor of just sort of, like, you have to think in ones and zeros. It either is or isn't. That helps. I learned that a little bit in working with tech devs. The last version we did actually white labeled off of someone who had created a technology to do with...it was to do with building communities online. And their project failed, but it had enough backbone that we were able to efficiently build what we needed to on top of what they built. CHAD: Oh, that's really...was it someone you knew already, or how did you get connected?AMY-WILLARD: Yes, they knew one of our partners in New York. We tried it first as a community project. It didn't really work. And then, we realized it could actually hold our data at the same time. So, my first iteration of the app was different. But yeah, anyway, we've built it a couple of times, and I could build it even more times...CHAD: [laughs]AMY-WILLARD: And make it even better and better.CHAD: So, on the sort of company side of you've worked with companies like Procter & Gamble, MasterCard, Microsoft, do you find it difficult to convince companies to participate? AMY-WILLARD: What we do is data journalism. We don't contact the companies. We have researchers. We have journalists go and look through the SEC data and CSR reports and collect the data points on which we measure them. So, no one has to cooperate with us to get the data. It's journalism. It's not opt-in surveys, which is a very common...when I first started, no one was measuring women, and now there's lots of different measurements. And they're often pay-to-play surveys, so they're not really very valuable. Ours is objective and fully transparent journalism.But then afterwards, our business model how we typically used to pay for this is that companies that did well on our index were then invited to be quote, "certified." And this was a business model that was sort of suggested to us at the Clinton Global Initiative, to which I belonged in 2016. And they loved what we were doing, using the free market to drive gender equality. Because, you know, our whole point is that women and people who care about women and equality, we have a lot of power as consumers, or as taxpayers, or as tuition payers, or as donors to nonprofits. And whenever you give money to an organization or a company, you have the right to sort of ask questions about the fairness of that organization. Well, that's our whole ethic, really. I answered that question and came around to a different idea, but yes, no. So, the companies do participate to be certified, and some of them are interested and some of them are not, and that's fine. We do projects with them sort of like when we...we've talked about MasterCard, and we did a big conference with them in New York. This is pre-pandemic. And then, we did a big, global exhibit with P&G, and Eli Lilly, and Microsoft at TED Global, which was very fun. It was all about fairness. And it was great to talk to technologists such as yourself. And we made a booth about fairness in general, not just about women. And we had a fairness game, and it was very interesting to just discuss with people. I think people like to think about fairness, right? I don't know if you have children, but little children get very interested in the idea of what's fair very early on. Yeah, so some companies participate...now we have companies...we do some work in B2B procurement which is something that your listeners might be interested in thinking about is that just, like, supplier diversity. If I were purchasing your services, your company services, I would ask about the gender metrics of your organization. I already learned they're quite good.So, big companies buying from other companies can put a gender lens on their B2B procurement. And so, that's a project we're doing with Salesforce, Logitech, Zoetis, Andela, which is another tech provider, and Quinnox, which is a similar sort of tech labor force, I believe. And so, we're going to be releasing a database about B2B suppliers. Actually, I should make sure that you get on it. That's a good idea. CHAD: Yes. AMY-WILLARD: That's a good idea because then it's going to be embedded in procurement platforms because this is a huge amount of money. It's even probably more...it could be more money than consumer spending, right? B2B spending. So, I'm excited about working with more companies on that to help promulgate this data and this idea because it's an easy way to drive fairness in a culture. When the government isn't requiring fairness, at least large companies can. And in some countries, actually, the government requires its vendors to do well on gender. Like, Italy now has a certification for gender, the government does, and companies that do well are privileged in RFPs and also get a tax deduction.CHAD: I don't want to say something incorrect, but I think the UK has, like, a rule around equity in pay...AMY-WILLARD: Yeah, absolutely. You're absolutely correct. CHAD: And yet they don't have equity in pay, the data shows. AMY-WILLARD: That's right. And we don't have that in the United States. It's voluntary in the U.S. We measure that, actually, too. That's seven points over a hundred points scale is whether they, one, publish the results of their pay study. In the U.S., though, we do it in a way that isn't rigorous as the way they do it in the UK. In the UK...you're great to remember that, Chad, in the UK, I mean, I wish my government did that.In the UK, companies report on the overall salaries paid to men and the overall salaries paid to women. So, that means if, you know, all the million-dollar jobs are held by men, it shows very clearly, and all the five-dollar jobs are held by women, it shows very clearly there's an imbalance. And in the United States, we just say, "Oh, well, is the male VP paid the same as a female VP?" That's sort of easier to do, right? CHAD: When we've talked with some larger companies about different products we're creating or those kinds of things, sometimes what I hear is they're looking for big wins, comprehensive things. And so, I was wondering whether you ever get pushback or feedback that's like, "Well, not that your issue is not important, but it's just focused on one aspect of what our goals are for this year."AMY-WILLARD: Right. Yeah, that's always a hard thing because when I think about fairness to half of the population, it's a hard thing for me to think that's not hugely important. CHAD: Yes. AMY-WILLARD: I have a really hard time, but yes, of course, we get that a lot. And, you know, quite frankly, when we did this B2B project with Logitech and Zoetis, they would ask their vendors, like, the major consulting companies and big companies, to take a SaaS assessment that we do. We have a SaaS product that private companies can take, or just instead of doing our journalism, they can just get their own assessment. And they were very, very reluctant to do this. That was just, you know, half an hour. It was a thousand-dollar assessment. And it took many months to convince these companies to do it. And that was their big customers.So, yes, it is very hard to have...what's the word? Coherence on what one company wants versus what a big company wants, and it's hard to know what they want. And it's, yeah, that's a difficult road for sure. And it changes [laughs].CHAD: Part of the reason why I asked is because from a product perspective, from a business perspective, at thoughtbot, we're big fans of, like, what can be called, like, niching down or being super clear about who you are, and what you believe, and what you offer. And if you try to be everything to everybody, it's usually not a very good tactic in the market. AMY-WILLARD: That's right. That's right. CHAD: So, the fact that you focus on one particular thing like you said, it's very important, and it's 50% of the population. But I imagine that focus is really healthy for you from a clarity of purpose perspective. AMY-WILLARD: That's right. But at the same time, now there's lots of...when I started in 2016, there weren't a lot of things in this space, and now there's many, many, many, many, many, many, so corporations that want to sort of connect to the community of women or do better for women. There's many different options. So, there's many flavors of this ice cream. Even though we're niche, the niche is very crowded, I would say, actually, and people are very confused.I mean, I think I remember hearing from Heineken that they're assaulted daily by things to, you know, ways to support women in different organizations and events. And they said they took our call because we were different. But yeah, there's many competitors. But, I mean, that's the main thing. In any business, in any endeavor in life, one has to show one's value to the people who may participate, and that's a challenge everywhere, isn't it?CHAD: Yeah.AMY-WILLARD: But the niching down thing is...and interesting we hear a lot these days is that women are done. We've moved on from that. Now we care about racial equality, and we say, "That's a yes, and… We can't move on." CHAD: Well, the data doesn't show that we've moved on.AMY-WILLARD: The data doesn't show that at all, and we're going way backwards, as you well know. So, I mean, actually, I don't know if you know, there's something called the named executive officers in public companies. Are you familiar with that? The top five paid people. CHAD: Yeah.AMY-WILLARD: They have to be registered with the government. Well, that number really hasn't changed in six years. That's where the big capital is, and the stock options, and the bonuses, and the big salaries. So, to me, that's very important that I would like, you know, rights and capital to be more...well, I want rights to be solid and capital to be flowing. And so, that's what we hope to do in our work. MID-ROLL AD:Now that you have funding, it's time to design, build, and ship the most impactful MVP that wows customers now and can scale in the future.thoughtbot Liftoff brings you the most reliable cross-functional team of product experts to mitigate risk and set you up for long-term success.As your trusted, experienced technical partner, we'll help launch your new product and guide you into a future-forward business that takes advantage of today's new technologies and agile best practices.Make the right decisions for tomorrow today. Get in touch at thoughtbot.com/liftoff.CHAD: So, going back to the founding of Gender Fair, when did you know that this was something you needed to do? AMY-WILLARD: I wanted to serve, you know, you want to be useful in life. And I wanted to do work in this field that I care so much about. As I said, I think I told you I started doing journalism before, and I realized anyone could take the journalism, and they could, you know, Upworthy would publish things we would create and then not pay us for it. And I thought that's crazy.But it's interesting talking to my husband. My husband's, like, a very privileged White guy. And I remember he said something to me very interesting. He said, "You either have power, or you take it." And he said, "Women have all this power." So, he helped me understand this. Like, you know, I think sometimes as women or communities that are underserved, you start thinking very oppositionally about what you don't have. But at the same time, you can realize that you do have this power. So, what we're trying to do with Gender Fair is remind people they have this economic power, and they can use it everywhere, you know, in addition to our consumer database. I told you that we're doing a B2B database this year. And we also...I think next week I'm going to release a database of 20,000 nonprofits looking at their gender ratings. That was done as a volunteer project by Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology if you know them. So, yeah, this is an ethic that you can take everywhere in your life is you have this power, even as a consumer. Chad, even in your little town, you can ask your coffee shop if they pay fair wages. Like, this is just a way of looking at the world that I hope to encourage people to do.CHAD: Along the journey of getting started, I assume you ran into many roadblocks. AMY-WILLARD: Mm-hmm. CHAD: Did you ever think maybe this is too hard? AMY-WILLARD: Oh yes. Well, not in building. In building, you're very optimistic, you know, it's just like when you're writing your first book. You think it's going to be a bestseller. Like, you build something, and you think the whole world is going to use it right away, and you're going to...I did have a great...when I first launched, I had a wonderful, I had, you know, press in Fortune. I had Chelsea Clinton. I had big people writing about us. Melinda Gates has written about us many, many times. The fact that...well, I've always wanted to build, like, a consumer revolution of women, and I'm going to keep at it. But it's very daunting. It's very daunting when you're trying to move a boulder such as, you know, big institutions and companies that don't really want to change, and they're not motivated to do it. So, yes, those are my roadblocks.It's not creating the massive amount of change that I wanted to do. And I'm not going to give up, but, yes, it is very daunting, and it's very daunting to see how little people care. Some people don't care about it, but some people in power don't care about it. But I think if you asked, you know, regular women, they would say, "We would like fair pay. We would like equal opportunity. We would like paid parental leave." They would want all these things, and hopefully, together, we can fight for them.CHAD: Well, and, like you said, the premise of what you're doing is you're focused on the power that you do have, which is the dollars that you spend with these companies. I think that's such a smart angle on this because especially for...it seems like the core in terms of the consumer-facing companies. That's so inherent in what this is. AMY-WILLARD: That's right. CHAD: Yeah, the angle of empowering consumers, and giving them the information, and leveraging the power that consumers have with these companies seems really smart to me...AMY-WILLARD: That's right. If it works -- CHAD: As opposed to individually going to the companies and saying, you know --AMY-WILLARD: "Please make it." Yeah. And some people would refute your use of the word empower because that implies that people don't have power. So, when I give speeches...I have a pair of beautiful gemstone red pumps, and I say it's the ruby slippers. We had this power all along. We just were not exercising it. But this power will only work, Chad, if it's done in the aggregate. So, our challenge is to reach the aggregate of American women. I have to, you know, I have to go reach 50 million women this year. That's my goal. Reach 50 million women with this message that we have the power in the aggregate to make change. And that's the only way this will work. If it's just one by one, it really doesn't. When I first launched, I found when I showed the app to people on the lower end of the economic scale, like, you know, people in the cash register; they understood this more than middle-class women. They understood the fact that if all women come together and, you know, buy from this company or don't buy from this company based on how they treat women, they understood that as a collective power. Whereas middle-class women who don't have as many struggles didn't really groove to that idea as quickly, which I thought was very...to me, it was very interesting, you know, individuals feel more powerful on the higher end of the social scale. They may or may not -- CHAD: That is interesting. AMY-WILLARD: Yeah. So, yeah, that's my goal. We'll see if I can do it. That's going to be my life's work, I think, Chad. CHAD: How do you reach 50 million people? AMY-WILLARD: I don't know. That's what I'm going to think about. You know, we're talking to different people about campaigns. We actually stopped the consumer work during the pandemic because it just, you know, everything changed. And so, now, this year, we're going back. I don't know; I mean, I guess if Ryan Reynolds tweeted about me, you know, that would help. If [laughs] anyone listening has any ideas how to reach 50 million women...no, maybe 3 million is what I need to create social change.CHAD: I imagine that it doesn't just come down to spending money on advertising. One, you might not have that money. AMY-WILLARD: No. And that would be, you know, that also would be not in the ethics of what Gender Fair is, for example, right? That means I would be paying money to Facebook and basically Facebook, I guess, and Google. If you look at the major spends of nonprofits, they're advertising with these big tech giants. And so, we have...actually, we have some partnerships with large women's organizations, and I think that's the way we hope to spread that. And if I had money for advertising, I would want to spend it with other women's organizations, or women's owned media, or women influencers. There's another idea I talk about in my work I call the female domestic product, and so talking about how much money women earn or capital we control. And the more we can grow that female domestic product, the more we can achieve equality actually. I always say, in America, you get as much equality as you can pay for sadly. CHAD: I was just about to say, "Sadly." AMY-WILLARD: Sadly, yeah. It's true. We still don't have the Equal Rights Amendment. A hundred years. CHAD: Well, 50% of the population would say, "Why do we need an Equal Rights Amendment [laughs]?" AMY-WILLARD: All men are created equal, but yeah, it's quite astonishing. I don't know. Do you have daughter, too, or just a son? CHAD: I have a son, and my younger one is non-binary. AMY-WILLARD: Well, I'm sorry to be so binary. Excuse me. CHAD: It's okay. AMY-WILLARD: Well, interesting. And that's great, too, isn't it? Because we see how fluid gender is and their rights are just as important as a woman's rights. And these are, you know, women and non-binary people are often excluded from things. And so, we are all working together just to create fairness. I'm sure that the same thing happens in your family, too. CHAD: Yeah. I think fairness is one of those things. Sometimes equality is not necessarily the same as fairness. AMY-WILLARD: Yes. CHAD: But I think, like you said at the top of the show, fairness is something that we seemingly learn very early on. But one of the ways that it comes across is I'm being. It is unfair to me, especially in little kids, at least with my kids [laughs]. AMY-WILLARD: Of course, yes.CHAD: That was the thing that they learned first and caused them the most pain. And it was very difficult for them to see that something was unfair for somebody else. So, I remember saying to my kids when they were little, "Fair doesn't mean you get your way." AMY-WILLARD: That's right. Not fair.CHAD: Right [laughs]. AMY-WILLARD: It's true. But then, you know, it's funny. When I talk about equal pay, I often say to people, "When I used to cut cakes for my children, I cut equal slices, and I didn't put them under the table," like, you know what I mean [laughter]? So, why are we so cagey about the slices of economic pie we give to one another? I mean, there's no reason why pay has to be secret, right? If it's fair. You could easily talk to people. Well, you know, Chad gets paid more money because he's the CEO, and he does the podcast, and he has to talk to the bank, you know what I mean? So, you could easily explain that to people. And I don't know why we have to keep salaries a secret from one another. It seems very irrational to me and not really a part of fairness. CHAD: Yeah. Yep. That's something...so, all of our salary bands at thoughtbot are public on the internet. AMY-WILLARD: Cool. On the internet. Oh, I'm very impressed. CHAD: Yeah. So, you can go to thoughtbot and use our compensation calculator. You enter in your location, what role you have. AMY-WILLARD: Oh. So, you do it for other people. Oh, that's cool. That's a great service. And that was just some sort of tech that was sort of pro bono tech that you all built for the world. CHAD: Yeah, we created it for ourselves.AMY-WILLARD: And then you shared it. CHAD: Mm-hmm. AMY-WILLARD: Then you open-sourced it. Great. Well, I bet you have a lot of happy employees.CHAD: I like to think so [laughs]. I do think that there is an inherent understanding of fairness. And when people ask how we do things at thoughtbot or how we should do things, I say, "How do you want it to be?" I think that guides a lot of how we do things and why a lot of stuff we do is just common sense. And it's not until ulterior motives or maintaining power comes into play where the people in power don't want to give it up. Because, like you said, people don't understand that by giving someone else a bigger piece, they think that that means their piece is smaller. AMY-WILLARD: Right. Or they just think they deserve it. I was reading last night about succession planning and CEOs. And apparently, a lot of them just stay...oh, sorry, in big public companies, not in their own companies, they stay on way too long. And all these consultants are saying it's the four Ps, you know, position, privilege, pay, and then...I forget the other one. But one of them was jets. They don't want to give up their jets. So yeah, I think when you have things, it seems fair, and sharing them seems...giving up some of what you have seems unfair. But I do think humans can see fairness. But sometimes, when you have a lot, it's hard to see it. You're able to justify why it may be not unfair to people who don't have as much as you do. But anyway, I can't change human nature, but most people do understand fairness. I think you're right about that. CHAD: Well, one thing...I noticed...so, you're a Public Benefit Corporation. AMY-WILLARD: Yes. CHAD: Did you set out to be a Public Benefit Corporation from day one? AMY-WILLARD: Yes, you know, originally, when it came to how was I going to pay for this, the first part I paid myself with my own money. I hired MBAs. I hired researchers. I built the tech. And then, I wasn't sure how I was going to pay for it going forward. But I knew I didn't want to become a nonprofit because, in my mind, there are so many things that...there are so many problems that women have that need to be solved by nonprofit organizations, planned parenthood first among them. Like, I don't want to take money away from women's organizations that help women fleeing abusive homes. So, I wanted to see if I could pay for this in the private sphere, which we've been able to do, and not have to seek donations because, really, I felt very strongly about not taking money out of that.That's part of the FDP, the part of the female domestic product, but the part that's contributed by people philanthropically. And there isn't a lot of philanthropic dollars going to women, as I mentioned before. So, yes, I knew definitely I wanted to be a Public Benefit Corporation. And there's no tax benefits to that, you know, I don't know if you are yet, but...CHAD: No, it's something that we've looked at, but it's very attractive to me. AMY-WILLARD: Right. And there's also the private version of it being a B Corp, which is also very useful. It's an onerous process. Public Benefit Corporation isn't quite as onerous, I don't believe. I mean, we're in Delaware and New York, but it just says that you're, I mean, we exist for the public good. I'm not existing to make millions of dollars. I'm existing to create social change. And some organizations don't want...are leery of working with us because we're not a nonprofit so that's to assuage them. Well, it's not really about...we're not about enriching shareholders. It's just a different way to pay for it. But yeah, I would encourage all companies to look into being a Public Benefit Corporation or do a B Corp assessment or a Gender Fair assessment. It helps them, you know, operate in a world that is increasingly more values concerned. Maybe 20 or 30 years ago, it wasn't so on the top of mind of many people. We were coming out of, you know, warring '80s capitalism. But nowadays, the younger people, especially, are very focused on issues of fairness and equality. So, I think those tools making business better that way are very useful.CHAD: Well, I would encourage, you know, everyone listening to go check out the app, if you're at a company, to look at doing the assessment. Where can people do those things? AMY-WILLARD: Ah, well, yeah, I would encourage them to do all those things. You're right, Chad. I would encourage you to download the app and check some of your favorite brands. It's very simple. Do the paid subscription. And then, if you're a company, you can do an online assessment. You just go Gender Fair assessment, and you'll find it. If you're a business and would like to participate in our B2B database, you can also do the assessment, or there's a coalition for Gender Fair procurement, where you can get information. We had the prime minister of Australia speak at our launch. It was quite excellent. We'll be launching our nonprofit. Actually, I think it's already online. It's called genderfair-nonprofits.org, if you want to see how your favorite nonprofits do. But, basically, we're here to help any business or organization do better on gender. And you can email me [email protected]. And I would love to help anyone in their journey for fairness of any kind. Yeah, many ways to participate. Just go to genderfair.com or genderfairprocurement.com. CHAD: Awesome. Amy, thank you so much for sharing with us. I really appreciate it. And thank you for all the good that you're doing in the world with Gender Fair.AMY-WILLARD: Well, I appreciate the way you're running your company in a very new, interesting, and apparently ethical way. Privately, I could look at your website and your career page and figure out how you're doing. But it sounds, to me, when I've talked to people, that you're doing very well. And I honor your curiosity about learning from others. CHAD: Awesome. Well, listeners, you can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at [email protected]. You can find me on Mastodon @[email protected] podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.Thanks so much for listening, and see you next time. AD:Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us.More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at: [email protected] with any questions.
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In this episode of the Giant Robots Smashing into Other Giant Robots (On Tour!) podcast, hosts Sami Birnbaum and Jared Turner are joined by Ishani Behl, CEO and Founder of Skillopp and Sustainr. Ishani, an instructional designer by trade, began her journey by creating online courses and eventually moved into sustainability, inspired by her exposure to startups at the UNDP. She founded Sustainr, a platform that connects sustainable brands, and Skillopp, which simplifies learning using AI, aiming to reduce information overload.Ishani discusses how her educational background and experiences shaped her desire to improve learning and sustainability. She emphasizes the importance of dejargonization and how Skillopp uses AI to make complex information more accessible. She also highlights Sustainr's role in connecting sustainable brands with resources and opportunities, fostering a community that emphasizes collaboration over competition. Her journey reflects a commitment to creating impactful, sustainable business practices and improving educational approaches through technology.Throughout the conversation, Ishani shares her challenges in balancing multiple ventures, the importance of delegation, and her approach to building trust within her communities. She provides insights into the evolving landscape of e-learning and sustainability, emphasizing the need for personalized learning and effective communication.Skillopp (https://www.skillopp.com/)Follow Skillopp on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/skillopp/).Sustainr (https://www.sustainr.co/)Follow Sustainr on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/econet2021/) or Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/sustainr.22).Follow Ishani Behl on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/ishanibehl/).Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/).Transcript:SAMI: This is the Giant Robots Smashing into Other Giant Robots podcast, the Giant Robots on Tour series coming to you from Europe, West Asia, and Africa, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. If you have no idea about this Giant Robots on Tour series, then please make sure you listen to our previous podcast, where we throw random icebreakers at each other and we have fun naming the new series. So, make sure you don't miss out on that one. I'm your host, Sami Birnbaum.JARED: And I'm your other host, Jared Turner.SAMI: And with us today is Ishani, CEO and Founder of Skillopp, which simplifies learning to amplify performance through AI, and Sustainr, the Fiverr for sustainable brands. We are so delighted to have you with us, Ishani, today. We're going to get more into depth and into detail exactly where you're at and what you're doing at present. But I always like to go back to the start with my guests because there's always a journey and a story about how they got to where they are. Would you give us some details about how you got to the place you are today? ISHANI: Definitely. It's great to be on this. I'm delighted to also kind of share my story. It's been quite a journey. It all started a few years ago. I'm an instructional designer so that basically means that I design online courses for a living. So, if you see those ads on Instagram, "Hey, come to my masterclass," what I basically do is that I help in designing the whole course from the beginning but in a much better way. I guess this whole journey of Sustainr and Skillopp really started after I graduated. So, I went to King's College, and I pursued a degree in liberal arts, after which I worked at UNDP. And I was exposed to this world of sustainability and all these really cool startups that were coming up in this space. And I thought to myself that this is such an interesting and innovative field to be in. In every single startup that, you know, you would really do research around, you would just find these really interesting bits of information that you really didn't know. And I think that the business models per to se is also kind of like a way to emulate how you can live your own life in a much more efficient manner. That's why sustainability is called sustainability for a reason so that you can really sustain your livelihoods for a much longer amount of time. I think just building upon that, when the pandemic started, I really thought of doing something around this. And we kind of created a community of practice, so to say, of just sustainable brands around the country, in the UK and India. We started connecting them with various opportunities, so it sort of became like a Fiverr [laughs] of sorts where we would kind of connect them to various kinds of opportunities that would help them grow. I think when I went back to London for my master's, a lot of people in the faculty really liked the idea. And they were able to provide us with some funds, and we won a number of competitions. And that really led to the beginning of Sustainr, and we currently have around 40 brands on our platforms. We keep on having a lot of collaborations. We've also raised grants for a few startups as well. This idea of really merging learning with the community created impact, and I had no idea about that.And I think when I started creating courses as well for other brands and other companies, this whole idea of Skillopp also emerged as well, where we really took into account one very important concept, which was dejargonization. Now, I'm not too sure if you're aware about this, but there's this very big problem that's happening in the world right now. It's called the information overload. If you think about it, every single time you open, you know, some piece of content, or a reel, or anything, you see so many words that you just don't understand whether it's Web3, crypto, Bitcoin [chuckles], whatever it might be. So, what we basically did in that case through Skillopp, which was this new vertical that we created, we basically simplified content through using different AI tools. And that would really help automate digital learning and communication in organizations. And we've currently worked with the top MNCs in the world as well. The whole idea, in a nutshell, in terms of my life so far, has really been around how exactly you can design content in the most simplest way possible. How do you dejargonize it? And also, how do you create impact in the sustainable space? Because that is one key area that I think can really teach us so much about our own lives and can create so much of impact given the current climate crisis as well. JARED: That was a great intro. Thank you. You're working on two businesses. Are you still studying, or you finished studying now?ISHANI: I finished studying. JARED: You finished. So, I guess you were studying while you were working. ISHANI: Mm-hmm.JARED: But now you're working on two. So, how did you or how do you balance all of that? And how do you choose what to prioritize when they probably both seem just as important? ISHANI: I think it took me some time to figure that out. It's not easy. I'm somewhat of an overthinker. So, it just so happens to be that when you think about several problems that your business is facing, you know, whether it's, you know, people; it's sales; it's operations, it just really makes you really flustered, and, you know, you're unable to figure out what do I exactly prioritize. One thing that really helped me was just reflecting on the business models and what I was up to, as well as what exactly deserved the amount of priority that it needed to. So, what really ends up happening is that I think there's a lot of reflection on how do you delegate tasks, and that's how I exactly manage two businesses. I really believe in this whole concept that, as an entrepreneur, everybody looks at you and everyone's like, "Yeah, you must be doing it all," right? Like, the marketing, the sales, especially in the beginning. But I believe that when you learn the art of delegation and just kind of letting go and surrendering that, okay, no, you know, I have a team who's handling this aspect of the business, and I should not worry about it, you automatically can start focusing on other aspects. And I think that's how I started prioritizing. I divided the tasks into whatever really received utmost importance in the beginning that was easier to do, and then, you know, you sort of get the hang of it. I'd also like to add to the fact that I think we don't talk about this really often but look at, like, our moms, right? Like, they handle a household and their work at the same time, and they can do it. So, you know, I really think to myself, there are so many people who might be handling more than that, then why can't I do it? I think just setting that motivation really, really helps. And you can then start figuring out how to delegate, how to prioritize. But I think mindset is key because if you don't have the right mindset, you won't be able to do it. SAMI: As a father of four, that analogy really resonates with me in terms of juggling all those different balls at the same time. But I can imagine it's exhausting as well. But you touched on this concept of dejargonization, which I love because I think there is such a barrier to learning sometimes because humans take simple things and make them complex. And it sounds like, through your e-learning platform, you're taking complex things and returning them back to being simple. I've seen you describe yourself as a bad learner. ISHANI: [laughs]SAMI: What does that mean, and how exactly has that impacted you? ISHANI: In the beginning, the reason why I pursued education, I guess, there was this very rebellious instinct that I had in mind. When I was in school, it was so different. I was told to especially memorize certain formulas in math. And there was this really gigantic physics book that I had to learn and, you know, kind of memorize the formulas and understand the concepts, no pictures at all. And, you know, you just had to be perceived as, hey, you know, if you can memorize them and you can get good grades, you are really, really smart, but if you can't, then that basically means that you don't have any future. And that was the kind of mindset that I grew up in.And I think I had this rebellious instinct that if supposing I couldn't, like, especially because in science, I was really, really bad. I used to hate those horrible textbooks. I was just like, how can somebody learn through this? And I was just like, no, I want to change this. I want to change the way people approach education and learning. And I started seeing this and this started becoming so relevant. A lot of us today might perceive that they know certain concepts. But when we start having a conversation around that concept, there are so many misconceptions that are created because of these preconceived notions of how they were taught earlier about a certain concept as well in school, right? I guess my mission is to kind of eliminate that barrier of questioning concepts right in the beginning when somebody is learning and not being like, hey, you know, if I don't understand this word, if I don't understand this concept, I'm really smart. I'm going to figure it out. I hate the Superman complex that people have these days. I know it all. I really, really know it all. And I'm just like, well, do you? This is one of my favorite slogans, like, if you can't teach it, then don't preach it. And [laughs] I think that I keep on following that slogan all my life that if I really don't understand anything, I have to figure out a way to understand it, and that doesn't mean that I'm dumb or stupid. I have to figure out a way in terms of understanding that concept. That's why I call myself a bad learner because I used to hate how I was taught in school. And I was just like, you know, I'm not going learn like this, either I have to change the way I think and I learn. That's the only way that I will do that. And that's why I got into education. I was just like, I really want to take some revenge on this [laughs]. SAMI: I love that. That really resonates with me. I would also, in that sense, I would describe myself as a bad learner, but someone with a good memory, especially when I didn't understand things. I'll never forget when I was studying for my degree. I actually wasn't far from you. I think you were in King's College. ISHANI: Oh.SAMI: Well, I was down the road in LSE. ISHANI: Oh, nice. Neighbor. SAMI: Yes, I remember studying for my degree there, and there was one topic I was studying that I just couldn't understand and get my head around. But there's kind of a way to play the system, and that is memorizing things. So, I promise you, I memorized sentences. I could not tell you what they meant, but I used them in my exam. It was kind of cheating, in a way, but it was kind of also working with the system that I had in front of me. But it sounds like if I had something like an e-learning platform at that time, that is something which could have explained things properly and played into strengths that I might have had that I wasn't able to discover in the regular system.Do you see e-learning platforms...and I've seen this actually from people who, let's say, are studying for their A levels in this country now, which is exams they do ages of, I think, 17 or 16. A lot of them are turning to YouTube, and they learn from YouTubers, and there's other platforms. Do you see e-learning as something which could replace more conventional education, either high schools, degrees? Is that where you see the industry heading? ISHANI: Well, I wouldn't say that e-learning can replace educational systems. I think, at the end of the day, when it comes to e-learning platforms, as well, I really love them. But I wouldn't say that they're as personalized as you would think. They could be. And the number one element to learn well is to personalize learning because everybody is different. Everybody thinks differently. Everybody has a very different process of thinking. Some people learn in a very auditory way. Some people like listening to podcasts like the ones that you're conducting. Some people like learning visually. Some people like learning kinesthetically. Sometimes what I believe is that not every single e-learning platform can do justice to every single style of learning or every single individual. And I'm pretty sure there are 500 more styles of learning that we in the L&D space still haven't discovered yet. I think what e-learning can do and how we can really benefit from e-learning is using it as a tool. We should not depend on e-learning platforms completely, like, in terms of even, like, just simplifying content or, like, figuring out a way in terms of writing an essay. That is something that perhaps we can use it as a tool to brainstorm upon, that it makes our lives much easier. At the end of the day, AI, artificial intelligence, as well as all these e-learning platforms that are coming up, it's a way in terms of conducting the menial tasks that you really didn't want to do so that you can focus on the big stuff. I think if we start approaching e-learning in that way and, you know, also figure out how to set limitations in terms of how we don't depend on it; we will not have, like, a crisis in terms of how we're looking at social media today, where everybody is just addicted to their phones. JARED: Ishani, I wanted to ask specifically about your product, Skillopp. Who's your target market? You know, we've talked a lot about sort of learners from an education perspective, like high school, university. Are you targeting them, or is it more business, commercial users? And how did you discover that market as well? ISHANI: Great. So, I think, again, it really happened to be upon chance. So, like, a little bit more about Skillopp. It's not exactly how a product works. We work in a much more adaptable and flexible manner in terms of how you can use AI to simplify content as well. We started working with a number of corporates through word of mouth, I guess, and we created a lot of impact in that space.And what we did was that we would figure out what would be the best platforms and tools that they can deploy. And we would put them onto one system, and we would develop that for them. So, how it would really end up working would be, like, this very flexible product that we would make as per the needs of the corporate itself, rather than making something of our own, which could not be flexible or adaptable to what the corporation wanted as well. It's really cool because we just end up building on various kinds of innovations. Like, recently, we would also be open to various forms of different tech partnerships in terms of building those systems as well. So, it just ended up creating this collaboration over competition mindset and where everything happened to be, like, this win-win formula when we would build products. And we would kind of go to these businesses as a service, and we would end up building a product for them. I think, that way, it was very interesting to see how that journey really happened. And I think it was just through experimentation, and I really experimented a lot.We do also have, like, some developers who are working with us. And we would kind of go out of our way to figure out what the company or the corporate really wants. And we started building upon these products and then we were able to, like, deploy those particular needs of what that organization wanted in terms of what kind of product they really wanted and how they wanted to simplify content. So, it was, like, as if it was made by them, not by us. And it provided that sense of pride within the organization that, hey, you know, this is something that I really built.This whole concept just got extended through word of mouth to various different organizations and institutions. But, like, through some random way, and I always thought that I'm going to work with an institution first, it just so happened to be working in the corporate space, which is very strange. But I guess that's how entrepreneurship, to a certain extent, works with so much of experimentation that went on.JARED: You're using generative AI as part of that to identify, let's say, jargon and then simplify that language. And one of the problems that generative AI has is what they call the hallucination problem, where it sort of makes stuff up that's not true. Have you encountered that? And I'm curious of any ways you're trying to tackle it. ISHANI: [laughs] So many times. I think AI it's like raising a baby, you know [laughs]. I always like to use that anecdote because [laughs], like, my experience in terms of, like, generative AI and AI, in general, it's always been, like, as if I'm bringing a baby up in terms of, you know, the machine learning aspect of it. I think, yeah, we've encountered that quite a number of times. I think the best way in terms of also approaching this hallucination aspect is to kind of keep the task as specific as possible. If you want to teach somebody a little bit about sales and how do you exactly approach a customer in terms of closing in a deal, right? The way we can approach it. How do you simplify that process for, let's say, sales agents, right? It's to kind of really figure out what is that particular skill that the sales agent really needs help upon. So that if we try and specify it more, then the AI will really understand that, okay, I have to stick to this boundary. I really can't go out of that. And making it as specific as possible really helped us in the process, and they were able to really upskill themselves in that one specific subskill. And we really, really worked on that conversation to such an extent that I even know the script of that conversation in terms of how a sales agent is supposed to negotiate and what would that script be for that particular industry and that organization. So, I think just specifying it as much as you can really helps. I think the hallucination effect happens so much, and that is one problem and also an area that I'd love to do more research in as well. JARED: So, humans aren't going anywhere just yet. ISHANI: Yeah, not going anywhere. Actually, I really don't think so. A lot of people just keep on talking about AI is going to be...and I would...actually, this is a question that I'd love to ask both of you as well that do you think AI is really going to replace human beings? And everybody just keeps on talking about it, and I don't really think so. But what do you think? JARED: Oh, gosh, we could have a whole episode just on this.ISHANI: [laughs]JARED: There's a lot of parallels to the industrial revolution, where everyone said all of the machinery that was created was going to get people out of jobs, farming, and agriculture. And all it really did was shifted the demand for resources into different and slightly more specialized roles. I think we'll see a similar shift with AI. I do think, in time, there will be a significant portion of existing jobs that might go the way of AI overlords. But I'd like to think there'll always be a place for us little humans. What about you, Sami? SAMI: I love this question. I think I've gone around the houses with this one. So, I've gone through different phases of like, oh my gosh, we're all going to die, and no one's going to have any more jobs, and we don't know what we're going to do. Even to the extent that I was really proud of myself that I learned on YouTube how to silicon my bathroom because I was adamant that AI could not do that. And so, if all else goes to pot, then at the very least, I have a skill that is valuable. And then, recently, I've seen the robots they're coming up with, so even that is not really going to work for me. It's really difficult to know. It's so difficult.I find generative AI less compelling because of the hallucinations that we've spoken about. I see that as being far off, and a lot of it depends on the accuracy. Your baby analogy is great. Because the way we're used to interacting with computers is they give us responses that are kind of, like, binary. They're either right or they're wrong. It's like a green light, red light relationship. And when it comes to generative AI, you need to have that more personal relationship with the computer to have that conversation back and forward to get it where you want it to be.Something that has definitely come more to the forefront is discriminative AI, which is AI that can tell a difference between certain data sets. So, I see that taking off a lot more. So, for example, they're using it in, like, the medical sector where the AI can discriminate or tell the difference between certain brain scans in terms of understanding what might be an issue and what might not be an issue. So, that is very powerful. We've actually had that for quite a long time. But as computing power is becoming more affordable, as certain chips have become available, it's becoming more widespread, and we can harness that a lot more. So, discriminative AI, I think, is being very disruptive, and I think it will continue to be. Degenerative AI, I'm not sure because of the difficulties you've spoken about. But worst-case scenario, I will personally come and silicon your bathroom. So, the e-learning company that you have, that seems more familiar to me. And maybe it could be also potentially more familiar to some of our listeners because a lot of us have kind of grown up on YouTube. And I'm not comparing it to YouTube. I know it's a very different beast altogether. It's something which we could possibly identify with and understand more. The Sustainr aspect is a little bit more foreign to me. So, I'd love to get to understand more of what the Sustainr company that you have is all about and how it works. ISHANI: Like I said, I think Sustainr is this very interesting community that we built over the pandemic kind of touching upon this whole aspect of...and I think I'll also, like, come to this point in terms of how Skillopp and Sustainr are also kind of interlinked. It all, actually, technically speaking, started with the same problem: dejargonization. What really happened was that when you also start a startup, especially in the sustainable space, what a lot of people, and when I talked to a lot of founders, especially the 40 brands that we have on our platform, it's like, "Ishani, I just don't know who exactly to approach. I don't know what...supposing I'm trying to find sourcing materials related to my business, supposing I'm trying to find individuals who can create content that is based on the concept of my business, I just don't see the results. And I don't see that people are able to understand and comprehend what I'm trying to talk about."And I feel like this is also perhaps a cultural problem as well. I mean, for example, this has been my experience as well as a number of people in India. Because India is currently growing at a massive rate with the economy, as well as the startup boom that's happening. If you think about it, every single person's mindset is like, I really need to get this done. And that's why a lot of us are also very impatient. So, just thinking about how we're actually really thinking, we create, like, this impatience sort of situationship in our head. And we don't want to perhaps learn about new things. That stops us from learning and really digging deep because we're just like, no, no, no, we need to get this done, and we need to hustle. And there's a lot of that culture that's present over here because our economy is growing. Startups are booming. And there's lots of work to be done. Like, trust me, if you come to Bangalore or Bombay, you will actually feel that pressure [laughs].So, really thinking about that mindset, what really happens is that when somebody, especially in Southeast Asian countries or especially in a country like India, are looking for stuff for their sustainable business, a lot of people are like, "But what is sustainability? What is ESG? Is it just environment-related?" And, you know, just this communication style, so to say, creates a lot of impatience between both the parties, and that leads to mistrust. Miscommunication takes place. Orders don't come on time. There's a lot of problem and havoc. This also leads to a lot of mental stress.That's why we created this platform, so to say. And how it really works is like, it's like any form of connecting platform. We have various categories, as well, through which people can perhaps list their business on the platform in terms of that particular category, whether it's in sourcing, whether it's in fundraising, finance, or even marketing per se.And we just kind of connect them just like how you would connect people over LinkedIn, like, through an intro. But we would be the ones who would be part of that whole connection scenario so that everybody knows that there is, like, this trusted platform being built between the two people and that they're not alone. There's somebody else who's also dejargonizing the communication flow. And through that, what really happens, Sami, is that, like, the ideas of collaborations really grew because we would also have events. We would also have, like, these very interesting micro podcasts just for the community. And we would just post all of that content that would, A, build a lot of positivity amongst people in that space. And, you know, it would just kind of lead to more productivity in terms of different collaborations. Like, for example, we just tied up somebody who was creating straws using, I think, coconut or something like that to a chain of vegan cafes. I think what really happened was that through this trusted platform, through a community, I think it really, really bolsters a lot of positive mindset. At the end of the day, like I said in the beginning, I really think that it's all about mindset, which really helps you take that action. And that, in a nutshell, is what Sustainr really does in terms of just connecting resources. And now because we work with corporates as well, if supposing there are companies who want to pursue, let's just say, corporate gifting or something like that, we kind of help and initiate that process as well. So, it just becomes, like, this interlinked network where you can really just harness as many collaborations as possible so that you can also grow your business. You have time for experimentation. You have the safe space as well. And I didn't get an opportunity to be a part of any such community. So, I was just like, why not try and see how I can create one?JARED: That's great. It sounds like education and trust, a huge part of this marketplace. How do you ensure you find trusted partners, and how do you convince the people on the other side of that marketplace to trust you or to trust your marketplace?ISHANI: So, I think in terms of building trust, it takes time. So, we're not a community, or we're not kind of, like, this platform; we're, like, telling everybody that, "Hey, you know, come on our platform. We'll ensure that your business will grow." I think, first of all, it's setting the right expectations in terms of what exactly you can really achieve out of this platform. B, I think what I really like to do is, like, a lot of phone calls, just talking to the founder in terms of how he started that particular idea of his. How did it really take place?Our onboarding process is not like you have to fill in this very big, huge form, which will make you extremely bored, and you're just like, "Oh my God, this is, like, such a heavy task." Like, no, it's okay. There are some people in our team who also kind of talk to the founders and figure out what their story is all about. How did they really start that particular business? And if supposing what they're really looking for is something that we can really curtail to. Because we don't want to be also, like, a community where there's no value that we can add, then what's the whole point? And I'm very hell-bent on setting those expectations so that when people actually join our platform, then, you know, it's not like, okay, like, this is going to be just spam coming on [laughs] your way in terms of all the other communities that we end up seeing. But it's so much more than that. I think it's kind of like when we establish that synergy that, all right, if this is what you're looking for, and these are the kind of people that we have, that's the only way that we kind of build that trust. And that trust-building, it takes time. It doesn't happen automatically; it takes a lot of time, and that's why we have a lot of events.We share a lot of bits of content around, let's say, the investing market in the space of sustainability and ESG. What exactly is happening out there? We even link with other communities to build more trust. So, supposing there's a better community than Sustainr, I'd be like, yeah, 100%, you should definitely look at those communities. Like, that tagline has always been collaboration over competition, and I think it's always worked in our favor. We would also end up collaborating with those communities around climate. In so many different aspects, that's helped us, and that's the way that you also kind of build trust, when you actually see those actionable steps being taken, and you see that taking place. But it's not something that I can, like, assure you, like, yeah, 100% the trust is built within that one day. It takes some time, but it happens over a period of time. JARED: I love what you just said there about almost the long-term strategy of, you know what? If there's a better community, we're going to point you in that direction. That, to me, builds so much trust because the short-term option is to say, "Oh, okay, I've seen this. It's probably better for them, but that means they're not on our platform. So, that's not better for me." That is a tremendous way to build trust in a sort of long-term user base. So, I really love that. SAMI: Yeah. I mean, we've only been, I don't know, we've been speaking for about half an hour, 40 minutes now, and I feel like I really trust you as well [laughter]. It's, like, rubbing off. This concept of, you know, demystification and simplifying things it shows this authenticity. And I think your personality comes across and the way that you run these businesses. And you're doing it in an incredibly genuine way. I think that really talks to people. I think people are looking, like, not for jargon. They really want authentic people they can relate to who are real human beings. And that's something which I think really comes across through speaking to you.Obviously, as a consultancy, myself and Jared we work within thoughtbot, and we work with people like yourself to really try and solve their problems and understand what their pain points are. And we can come up with solutions through design or development. What would you say is your biggest challenge? In either one of these businesses or as a whole, where's your biggest challenge at the moment? ISHANI: There are so many [laughs]. But I guess to start off with, kind of scaling it to a considerable level. But at the same time, you know, scaling requires investment, and scaling also requires some amount of time in terms of figuring out how exactly you want to grow your team, which also takes time. So, sometimes I feel like I'm in this catch-22 situation where I'm just like, if I do need investment, right? For example, scale or if I need investment to grow my team even further to get more clients so that I can target more projects, let's say for Skillopp; again, finding the right people it takes time. And I think that's something that I really also kind of struggle with. It took me a lot of time to find the right people for the projects that we're doing right now. I think any tips would be great in terms of how exactly I can really do that so that even if supposing I want to raise investment and I know what I want to raise investment in, which is to grow the team, how exactly would I really approach that? Because I always feel like it's like this catch-22 situation. JARED: Well, it sounds like you already have some clients, which is an infinite step up on most businesses that are starting out and trying to get investment. Like, the fact that you can prove you have revenue coming in is amazing. I mean, the typical things that investors want, like the investor deck, right? They're going to want to see your vision for the business. They're going to want to see your financials and the forecast. And then, it's a matter of finding the right investors as well because I guess there are so many out there. But I think you probably want to find one that matches your values around sustainability and dejargonization as well.SAMI: Yeah, that's a great answer, Jared, actually. And, I think, just to add on top of that, this is where sometimes using a consultancy actually really helps. We see this a lot within thoughtbot, where someone is looking to get investment and wants to scale their team. But when you do that in-house, that comes with a lot of overheads.So, for example, you might need an extra person, your HR team, to handle new people, you know, being directly employed. Going to a consultancy and getting a third-party delivery partner allows you to kind of scale your team quickly, but also, descale that team quickly as well, so that it gives you that flexibility whilst you're in that more turbulent zone of, "Oh, I'm trying to scale, and I'm trying to get investment. And I'm not sure where my budgets are." Until you, you know, complete that scaling that you want to do, you get to a place where you're more stable. And then, actually, what thoughtbot does is helps people to then hire their own in-person team. But yeah, something like a consultancy can give that flexibility. But the way you describe this catch-22 situation is so common because what do I do first? I've got all these levers I could pull. So, I could pull the investment lever, or I could pull the, you know, extra resources lever. And then, there's like, you know, extra revenue lever as well. So, it's a really difficult problem. But definitely, we found, as a consultancy, that having that flexibility using third-party partners can be something which helps.JARED: And I wanted to just ask, because I remember you were saying you're working with some developers, are they developers you've hired, or is that a third-party team you're working with?ISHANI: It's very similar to what you really mentioned. It's like a strategic partnership with a third-party team. But, again, I think finding the third-party team also, like, it takes a long time to find. But I think that I really liked the thought that you were really talking about as well earlier, where you were kind of mentioning that that whole catch-22 situation is super, super important to understand.And I feel that instead of kind of going on LinkedIn and, like, posting so many, like, you know, these job descriptions with the overhead costs...I started learning that once I made that mistake. I think I learned so much about that. And I think that what you said it's also, like, reflecting on the fact that, okay, you really can see this through the strategic partnerships. And I think I'd love to be somebody or, like, you know, aspire to be someone who can, like, master that whole art of finding the third-party consultancies like you were mentioning, especially what you're doing as well. So, I think it's great, and thank you so much for the feedback and as well as answering question. SAMI: It's been great to have you on. And doing a podcast like this it just gives us the opportunity to speak to people like yourself. If people want to reach out to you, do you have any specific place you'd like them to reach out? ISHANI: You can go on my LinkedIn, where you'll find a lot of stuff and links to what I do.SAMI: Cool. So, I highly recommend our listeners to take a look at Skillopp, and take a look at Sustainr, and get to know all the great work that Ishani is doing.For our listeners, we're going to bring you lots more content like this. This was the first one in the Giant Robots on Tour series. Your only challenge before the next one is to hit the subscribe button to make sure you get this content directly as soon as it comes out because we've got some incredible guests lined up for you.You can find notes and a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, you can email us at [email protected]. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See ya. Okay, before we sign off, a quick request. If you're enjoying Giant Robots on Tour, please drop us a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Your reviews help us grow and reach more listeners, and we'd love to hear what you think. Thanks for being part of our journey, and stay tuned for more episodes. AD:Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us.More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at: [email protected] with any questions.
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Hosts Will Larry and Victoria Guido chat with Mandy Moore, the mastermind behind thoughtbot's Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots and Bike Shed podcasts. Mandy shares some great insights on the technical aspects and the crucial role of editing in creating top-notch content. She stresses the importance of having a producer to handle the behind-the-scenes work, allowing the hosts to focus on delivering captivating content. Mandy also shares her personal journey into podcast editing, highlighting her resourcefulness and how her skills evolved over time.
Will and Victoria also delved into the strategic advantages of podcasting for businesses, highlighting its effectiveness in helping thoughtbot build a community and establish authority as a company. Mandy discusses how a well-produced podcast can be a potent sales tool and can significantly boost a company's brand presence. They even touch on the future of podcasting, with Mandy pointing out how continuous podcast production can help solidify a company's reputation, even in uncertain times. The episode wraps with some practical advice for anyone interested in starting their own podcasts, emphasizing the need for passion, persistence, and a clear strategy.
Follow Mandy Moore on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/missmandymoore/). Visit her website: mandymoore.tech (https://mandymoore.tech)
Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/).
Transcript:
WILL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry.
VICTORIA: And I'm your other host, Victoria Guido. And with us today is Mandy Moore, our long-time Podcast Editor and Creative Content Marketer. Mandy, thank you for joining us.
MANDY: Thank you so much.
VICTORIA: So, I'm excited to dive into the topic of podcast, and creative content, and strategies for companies that are maybe long-time listeners of the Giant Robots podcast who are just curious about why we do this podcast and what it does for us as a company. So, excited to get into that, but before we do, let's start with a fun question to get us warmed up. Mandy, is there anything fun, exciting going on in your world outside of work?
MANDY: Outside of work, I spend a lot of time at my local dance studio doing a mixture of dance and aerial arts. It gives me something physical to do after my work days. It's an afternoon thing for me. So, I spend about one to two hours there. And it's really helped me overcome a lot of challenges in my life, dealing with a lot of trauma and other aspects of overall personal development and recovery.
WILL: That's awesome. I normally would never know what you're even talking about, or whatever, but [chuckles] my daughter is into dance. So, every Tuesday, I take her to dance. She begs me to take her, so I take her. So, my daughter is three—about to turn four. And every time we go to dance, she begs us to let her do the aerial dance. Like, I don't ever try to tell her, "Hey, you're too small," or whatever, but we're like, "Let's wait on that one. And then, let's wait until you can do the dance and then get up there." But she is so excited to get on the aerial dance and to do that. So, for you, was it scary when you started doing it, or did you just jump right in? How was it?
MANDY: I always jump right into everything, but it was hard at first. It looks like it shouldn't be that hard, but it takes a lot of strength. And I was in a much different place eight months ago than I am now. It amazes me the transformation and growth that I've been able to see in myself because, from the very beginning, my instructor encouraged me to video myself. So, I have beautiful videos of progressions. And I can't wait to get a little bit more confident with my own social media and start sharing some of the before and afters because I really want to inspire people. It's done wonders for me and my mental health.
WILL: A lot of respect to you because I don't know if I could just trust, I don't know what you call it, but that ribbon, that material just to hold you. I don't know if I could do it. So, a lot of respect to you [chuckles].
MANDY: So, my instructor likes to point out a fun fact, and I'm going to butcher it. I think it can hold whatever a baby elephant weighs. It can hold up to three tons safely.
WILL: Is it...I'm going to throw this...I'ma tie it in with Victoria. Is it kind of like...because I know with rock climbing, it's all about hand placement, especially if you're belaying. Are the mistakes when you are not paying attention, and you let go of one of the materials, or how does it work?
MANDY: Mistakes happen when you think about it too much. And that is what I'm always working on is to just stop thinking about it and just doing it because I'm an overthinker, too. And when I start to think about it too much, then I get messed up. But your body knows. Your body adapts. And it learns after the exercise is over. So, in the evenings, after your exercises, that's when your body is, like, doing its internal magic and, like, memorizing your stuff. So, that's why when you go back, it gets easier each time because your muscle memory actually grows when you're on your downtime.
VICTORIA: Oh yeah. Yeah, I was going to say about climbing...it's funny that you asked that question, Will, about, like, the things that actually hold you because people get that question in climbing, too, about the ropes. Like, are the ropes actually going to hold you? And once you're comfortable with it, you know that it can hold a lot more weight than you [laughs], but it still can be scary. And I've seen people in Joshua Tree doing aerial silks from a line that's been drawn across the tops of two boulders. So, super cool. There's a lot of crossover in the community, I think, between people who do that type of dance and who also enjoy climbing and being outside. So, I love it.
And so, you make a really good point about how you learn and how information seeps into your brain. And maybe how do you see the world of podcasting and all the things you can learn from podcasting, like, how does that fit into, like, how you learn and how you think about the world?
MANDY: You know, I've built my entire career on figuring things out, and just building memory, and repeating processes, and figuring out what people want. Because, to me, editing is more than AI can do at this time.
WILL: Yeah. And I think you're super talented at what you do, so I just want to make sure that I tell you that. Like, you've done a really good job with us. I remember whenever I first had a conversation with Chad, I didn't know to what extent that being a podcast host with this podcast would be. But whenever he said, "We have an editor who will cut some stuff, make you sound good," I was like, "Oh, okay." "Like, essentially, Mandy is doing the hard work for us."
MANDY: [laughs]
WILL: And so, I was like, "I'm in. Let's do this." So, it's an art to do this. It's an art. How did you get started? How did you get the ball rolling to get to the point you're at right now?
MANDY: I was scrappy. I go in time by how old my daughter is, and my daughter is almost 15. So, that's how long I've been doing this. Because I was a single mom and I was a waitress. So, at the time, I had a one-bedroom apartment, and I still had a laptop. And my neighbor didn't have a Wi-Fi password. So, I used my neighbor's Wi-Fi, and I started doing virtual assistant jobs. And I met a developer. He was like, "Can you edit a podcast for me?" And I was like, "Yeah, I can totally do that."
And I got off the call and started Googling what is a podcast. And this was back in 2010, mind you, so podcasting was new at that point. And so, I just learned it, and I did a decent job. And every podcast that he did, I got better and better. And then, he had friends, and it just kind of turned into, like, Mandy's the go-to for tech podcasting there for a little bit. And I, at one point, got a referral to thoughtbot, and I've been with you ever since. I think it's been going on five or six years now.
VICTORIA: What's your first piece of advice for someone who's interested in starting their own podcast?
MANDY: Get a producer. I prefer to be behind the scenes. So, I like to help other people shine. So, like, my goal as a producer is just to have the host show up and be the talent and say the interesting things. So, if you want to have the bandwidth to be able to do that, you know, let somebody else do that work who specializes it because you can really bring your full self to the table and do what you need to do as the host and have fun with it.
VICTORIA: Yeah. And I think people either correctly estimate that it is a lot of work to edit your own podcast and to create the content, do all the marketing, invite people, plan great content. And it is much easier if you have help [laughs]. And you're probably going to have a better podcast that people want to listen to because it sounds good, and you might not want to skimp on that detail.
MANDY: Yeah. The other thing I would say when you go to start a podcast is a lot of people are focused on equipment. And that can take you down a long rabbit hole and make you never start to actually record the podcast because you're too worried about all of the details. Get a microphone and go. You don't even need an editor. You can make yourself sound decent through tons of free software. Audacity is one of my favorite platforms to use to edit podcasts. It's been free and open source since I've started.
WILL: Yeah. I love the advice, what you said, because not everyone...I don't want to do total assumptions, but majority of people fit in two camps. You have the people that want to be out front and chat and can connect with anyone. But you also have the people behind the scenes. So, I'm glad you said that because I think a lot of stuff...when people realize who they really are and what they're good at, it makes them so much better. I can't imagine doing a podcast and trying to edit everything and push it out. I think I'm decent at doing the podcast, and you make us so much better. So, I'm so glad that you said that about kind of just knowing your roles and what's your strengths and everything, so...
MANDY: Absolutely. I find it relaxing to edit a podcast. Believe it or not, editing a podcast with software is kind of like putting a puzzle together. I was a kid that loved to sit down with puzzles. You know, it is true that once I come to kind of memorize waveforms, like, Will, I know when you're going to say, "Um" a lot of times before I even hear you say, "Um" because I've recognized your speech patterns and same with Victoria. I will be able to pick them out. And it's very interesting. That's a little-known fact from a producer standpoint [chuckles].
WILL: Well, that's actually really cool because I don't really talk about this much, but I'm originally from Louisiana, and so I have a thick Southern accent. And so, that was actually one of my fears about doing, like, a podcast. So, it's actually interesting that you're saying that you know the ums and, um, which I just did [laughs], but you know how to help us out with that.
So, yeah, that's actually...I think that was one of the things I have respect for you is that you break down the barriers for people to be better and not be so insecure. Because if you're from Louisiana, there are so many words if you look at it and you try to pronounce it, it's going to mess you up, like Atchafalaya, or Natchitoches, or so many of those words that you're like, you almost have to know the word and pronouncing is going to mess you up.
MANDY: I call it...and I don't think anybody is a not smart person, but when I edit podcasts, like, the finished product comes out, I liken it to giving the speakers IQ points because the listeners hear the final, polished version. A lot of people start sentences three times over. They only hear the polished version. So, in essence, it's giving the speakers IQ points just to give them a little bit more, you know, of a leg up.
Nobody wants to really hear somebody bumbling around, but we all do it. We all get nervous. It's human nature to stumble and get nervous and let all those speech patterns out that show us as nervous. But that's what we're for is to clean everybody up. And I love getting to help people have that confidence to go because it's just like, "Don't worry. I got you. Just go out there, have fun, and you're going to sound great."
VICTORIA: And, in your experience, what kind of reasons for a podcast make the most sense for a business? Like, it's a common piece of advice if you want to build a community to start a podcast, but why is that? Or, like, when does it really make sense for you to start your own podcast?
MANDY: I mean, you nailed the number one is the community. But, honestly, also, it's a great sales tool, especially if you're a customer with customers, and you're helping people network and expand the network. You're featuring the people. You're expanding the network broader than a community like in a Slack channel, say, or a message board because those are fine, too.
But putting your company out there and being authority and also giving people access to free content that is helpful to them can really help a business establish that trust in the market and be like, wow, they really take their time to put this out there. One of the things that I constantly still to this day hear people talk about is the thoughtbot Handbook, that was written years and years ago. And it was a beautiful piece of free content, and everybody still talks about it.
WILL: Yeah, I agree. I think one thing about thoughtbot is the handbook. I still hear people talk about it, and it's referenced often. So, that's actually really good advice. What does success look like for you, like, six months now to five years? Where do you want to go?
MANDY: I think, for me, I've been in the tech industry for a really long time. I've fallen into the background a little bit too much in that I used to produce a pretty popular podcast called Greater Than Code. And I needed to take a step back from that because, one, it was becoming pretty much a full-time job.
You know, content is in a really weird place. I've really been trying to pivot into the general content creation space because I do marketing as well, social media, design, and assets. I've designed my own website. I design my own graphics. So, just kind of letting people know that I'm kind of a one-stop, one-shot person. I do it all myself right now, and I have forever. The only thing I outsource is I have a transcriptionist who is a real person, which is a great selling point to a lot of clients of mine because I don't use AI. And I do have a person who goes over it with the human touch who is well-versed in the software developer lingo.
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VICTORIA: What kind of trends do you see with podcasting and with the technology used to manage and produce podcasts?
MANDY: I see podcasting, in general, be a come-and-go trend in this industry. It tends to be, you know, one of the things that businesses are excited to ramp up on. But then it's also one of the things that is the first to go when things get tough or busy or you need to allocate your resources elsewhere. Podcasting seems to be like a trend that I see coming, going with the economy.
It's actually very weird to bring it to mind now that you mention it because people love podcasts. But when things are unstable, it's almost like they see it as a perk, and it just becomes something that's easily let go. And that's why I think thoughtbot and the podcasts have been so strong is that they have been kept going no matter what in the industry.
And thoughtbot has really become an authority in not just, you know, it started out as a Ruby podcast. And it very much has grown into a bigger startup, entrepreneurial, consultancy-driven show. And so, it just shows that when you stick in the game, what, we're 520-something episodes in now, that you really do have great things achieved.
VICTORIA: Yeah. And it sounds like just, you know, having that persistence and just keep going, and if you've found a formula that works for you, you can really benefit from continuing to invest in it. I love that. And let's see, what tips do you give people on how to have more exciting conversations, more engagement?
MANDY: I love when people just join the call and immediately hit record because some of the best parts of the conversations happen, and you're like, "Oh, wait, we should have been recording that." Start recording and relax and have...The opening conversations that we started this conversation with, it's an icebreaker. It gets into some of your everyday background.
And as hosts, one of the things that I told Victoria and Will to establish rapport with the audience to kind of start dropping a bit of the narrative. You talk about your story, and then the listeners become invested in you, and that's why they come back, too. It's great content all around, but they also really start to love the hosts too.
WILL: Yeah, I agree with that because most of the podcasts that I do listen to it's mostly around the host and the way that they treat people. Because if there's a host that's very mean, aggressive, I'm probably not going to listen to them. And, honestly, that's just me, like, I'm not saying don't listen to them. But the hosts do make the podcast a lot of times. And I'm not saying that we make the podcast though, but...
MANDY: [laughs] You do.
WILL: [laughs]
MANDY: It's the chemistry. You guys, I don't know if you know this, but I'm your biggest fan. Like, it's the chemistry. And it's The Bike shed. Fun fact: Joël and Stephanie, like, I told Joël [laughs]...when Joël took over from Steph and Chris, he had different co-hosts each week. And as soon as he had his episode with Stephanie, I said, "Joël, it's Stephanie."
VICTORIA: Yeah. And it can take a little while to get your dynamic between your co-host going. And other times, it happens right away, and it's very easy and natural. So, I love that for Stephanie and Joël. So, the idea behind a podcast like The Bike Shed, where it's two main hosts and they're coming up with different topics that they want to dive into, and sometimes they have guests but most of the time they don't, versus a show like Giant Robots where you're interviewing guests, what do you think about the content for each of those? Like, how do you kind of separate those in your mind and the direction content-wise?
MANDY: Marketing and knowing your audience. So, the Giant Robots appeals to startups and entrepreneurs. The Bike Shed is more into the code and into the nitty gritty of software development, so they go into deeper concepts. But Giant Robots is more about talking to the people. It's more of an interview-style show. It's featuring interesting people doing really awesome things and, getting the stories out there and connecting. And that's why I love that thoughtbot has both podcasts. We've just started, what—Giant Robots on Tour—to cater to the EWAA region, which is super exciting.
VICTORIA: Yeah and, for me, being an interview-style podcast gives me this opportunity to have these deep conversations with really interesting people that you wouldn't necessarily get into in, like, a normal networking event, right?
MANDY: Right.
VICTORIA: So, if you can think of a list of 10 interesting people you want to talk to, you should start a podcast.
[laughter]
MANDY: And if you can think of those people, a producer like me will also hunt those ten interesting people down for you and see if they'll talk to you because we can do that, too.
WILL: That is the truth.
MANDY: I've tracked some pretty cool people down. I'm pretty proud of my skills.
VICTORIA: We are absolutely thrilled to have you with us here today, Mandy, and to be such a big part of our podcast, and super delighted to have you come out of the background and be on the show with us today and share your voice. Do you have anything else that you'd like to promote?
MANDY: I'd just like to say that I am taking on clients. I would love to get into a general creative content role to utilize all my many skills that I've scrappily picked up over the years. It's hard to put into a resume. You can check me out at mandymoore.tech.
WILL: It's not just podcasts, correct? So, if I wanted to try to become an influencer, could you help me with that? Like, what's the different areas that you could help me?
MANDY: Oh, girl, yes. Let's make you an influencer, Will. Let's go.
VICTORIA: I could see that for you, Will.
WILL: I've thought about it, but it's a lot of work. So, that's a big thing, so...[laughs]
VICTORIA: Wonderful. I think that's really interesting to think about, Mandy. And I hope that people get a lot out of this episode when they're trying...if they're in this process of considering their own marketing plans, and podcast production, and other types of creative strategy, they might have to reach out to you.
MANDY: Thank you so much for having me.
WILL: Thank you for being here.
You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at [email protected]. You can find me on Twitter @will23Larry.
VICTORIA: And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg.
This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Check her out at mandymoore.tech. Thanks for listening. See you next time.
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Host Will Larry announces an exciting new Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast limited series focusing on Europe, West Asia, and Africa and introduces new co-hosts Sami Birnbaum, Svenja Schäfer, Rémy Hannequin, and Jared Turner! Sami sets a fun challenge for the team to devise a name for the new series by the end of the podcast. The co-hosts engage in an icebreaker game where Sami randomly generates questions for each to answer.
The team members talk about their paths into the tech industry. Jared, Rémy, and Will share stories of discovering their passion for tech, overcoming initial struggles, and finding their niche within the field. They discuss the importance of patience, problem-solving, and continuous learning in their careers. Sami emphasizes the value of realistic expectations and the ability to spend time with complex problems to find solutions.
As the first show progresses, the co-hosts have an amazing time brainstorming potential names for the new series, and ultimately, the team decides on "Giant Robots On Tour" to capture the spirit of exploration and collaboration across different regions. We're excited to keep bringing you this new limited EWAA series! Please subscribe and follow along with us!
Follow Sami Birnbaum on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/samibirnbaum/). Visit his website: samibirnbaum.com (https://samibirnbaum.com/).
Follow Svenja Schäfer on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/svenjaschaefer/). Visit her website: svenjaschaefer.com (http://svenjaschaefer.com/)
Follow Rémy Hannequin on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/rhannequin/). Visit his website rhannequ.in (http://rhannequ.in/)
Follow Jared Turner on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/jaredlt/).
Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/).
Transcript:
WILL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry.
And today, we're announcing a new limited series of the podcast focused on the region of Europe, West Asia, and Africa. Please welcome our new co-hosts. Let's start with Sami. Can you introduce yourself?
SAMI: I'm Sami. I'm a developer at thoughtbot based in the UK, in London specifically. And I'm really looking forward to this new Europe, West Asia, and Africa podcast, although we are going to need to come up with a name. We haven't got one yet because we're busy people, and we're consultants the rest of the time. But the plan is to get one.
I don't think there's any quicker way to do it than just for ourselves to come up with one. And so, I think we should do a bit of a challenge here. I think we could say that by the end of this podcast, we'll have a name. I don't know what that's going to be. I don't know what that's going to look like. But we'll go around at the end of the podcast, and we'll see if one of us during this podcast can pick a name for this new series. I'm going to pass on to Svenja. Hey, Svenja.
SVENJA: Hi, Sami. Thank you so much. My name is Svenja. I'm a developer and development team lead at thoughtbot. I live in Spain, more precisely in Almería. It's part of Andalusia. It's all the way in the South of Spain. I'm very excited to be in this podcast. And about the name, I'm also very excited about that. No clue yet. That's it for now from my side. Rémy, do you want to go next?
RÉMY: Thank you, Svenja. I'm Rémy. I'm a software developer at thoughtbot. I joined a little bit more than one year ago. And I'm working from Paris, France. And I'm very excited to join this series. Jared, do you want to go next?
JARED: Yeah. Thanks, Rémy. Hi, my name's Jared. I'm a product manager at thoughtbot. I am originally from Australia, but I live in London. And you're currently hearing me from Scotland. I'm very excited to hear what we're going to discuss over the course of this limited series and to hear what name Sami is about to come up with on this very podcast. Sami, back to you.
SAMI: Yeah. Thanks, Jared. It's great to be doing this with all of you. And formal intros are great, right? So, now everyone kind of knows our position at thoughtbot and where we live. But I was thinking possibly to spice some things up...I've never done a game like this before, so I have no idea where this is going to go.
It's kind of an icebreaker game where I use a random icebreaker generator online. They're not my questions. They're generated by someone else, which makes it even more risky. I'll kind of go to each of you individually with an icebreaker question that I've generated, and you're going to have to answer the question.
You have no idea what's coming. I have no idea what's coming. But it's a great way of other people getting to know kind of more about us in a more informal way, in a way which we might not think about sharing things. I will do you a favor, though; I'll give everyone two skips, okay? So, I'll hit you with a question, and then, if you don't like the question, you can skip the question. But you've only got two skips, so I would say use them wisely. Because if you skip and you get a worse question, you're not going back to the previous one.
Oh, okay, this is interesting. I'm going to start the way we intro'd, just to make it fair. Svenja.
SVENJA: I'm scared. I'm scared [laughs].
SAMI: You should be scared. The best thing about this game is the one who's hosting doesn't get asked the questions. So, Svenja, this is your question. What is a lesson you feel you learned too late in life?
SVENJA: Online banking [laughs]. I don't use online banking for that long. I don't know. I was the last person, I think, who always ran around with cash because I also didn't use credit cards also, so maybe trust in online banking. I'm not sure [laughs] that's a lesson. Sometimes, I probably shouldn't trust in it, but yeah, it would have made my life a little bit easier. Does that count?
SAMI: It definitely counts. I mean, what could be more valuable information to know about Svenja?
SVENJA: [laughs]
SAMI: That she doesn't like online banking. And that's exactly the type of valuable content you will get from the Europe, West Asia, and Africa podcast series, which I hope, in the background, we are all thinking of a name because we cannot just say Europe, West Asia, and Africa series the whole time.
WILL: I have a question, a follow-up. So, how did you do banking? Did you go in every single time, deposit, and withdraw inside the bank?
SVENJA: Yes, actually, well, I did. It was good and kind of not so good because I always needed to go back home because I had one office I was kind of allowed to go to because all the others they didn't know me. And so, I went there; then I did my transfer there. I like to speak to real people [laughs], which is interesting because I always worked remotely, at least the last ten years, I think. But real-life interaction is kind of important to me.
WILL: Yeah, that's neat to know. Okay. Awesome. Awesome.
SAMI: That's cool. Okay, Rémy, I have not hit the generator button yet, so I don't know what's coming. Let's hit it now. Okay, this is interesting. What's something you do to relieve anger or stress?
RÉMY: I have a lot of different activities. I kind of find it hard not to do anything. I don't know if it's a quality or not, but I know I'm always busy. So, if I'm stressed, I just go to the next occupation, you know. So, I like to do bread at home. I like sourdough bread. It smells amazing. It's not that easy, but you're working with living organisms. It's kind of nice. I read a lot of astronomy magazines because I'm deeply in love with astronomy. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but I love to play with my daughter. When you're stressed, sometimes it increases the stress depending, but it's always quite fun.
SAMI: That's great. Playing with the kids definitely resonates with me. I've got four of my own, so they keep me busy. Is the sourdough bread is that the one where you have that...I'm going to show how naive I am—my lack of knowledge. You have, like, that starter thing that kind of lives with you.
RÉMY: Yeah, exactly, the sourdough starter. That's actually the most fun part for me so far because you have to start from scratch. I mean, you can start with another starter. But it's quite interesting to just start with water and flour, and then you create something living, and it's a mutual benefit. You feed it, and then it feeds you a little bit later when you bake it in 200 degrees in your oven. It's interesting.
WILL: You said it's a living organism. So, you said that you started with water and flour. So, what introduces the living organism into the sourdough bread?
RÉMY: I lack a bit of the English vocabulary for that. I think it's called yeast. The living yeast on the flour, especially if it's organic, it's just out there, you know, even in the air. And when you just feed it with warm water and, like, a cozy environment, it starts eating the flour, and it develops, and it changes some of the texture and the taste into a lot of things. And then, it's quite powerful for making the bread rise and making a very nice taste and the crust and everything. But I think if I'm correct, Svenja might know a lot more about [inaudible 07:51] bread than me.
SVENJA: I don't. I think the reason you said is because I'm German [laughs]. We love bread, and I absolutely love bread, but I don't have the patience to feed something. I don't have kids. I do have dogs. I do feed them, but they also get sometimes a bit of bread. I was never able to do my own sour bread, unfortunately, because I really love it. And I don't get it around here, which is really sad. So, I will look into that.
SAMI: That's cool. That brings us to Jared. Jared has been waiting patiently for his question.
JARED: Hit me with it, Sami.
SAMI: Let's do it. Oh, okay. If you could kick one person out of this podcast...no, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. That's not, I mean, no, that was just...that's my own. Okay, let me actually do one. What's one characteristic you admire in others, and why?
JARED: Oh, interesting. I think I always appreciate when someone else takes the time to understand someone else's point of view. If that goes a bit meta, like, we live in our own heads so much that it's really nice when someone reflects on how someone else thinks or their point of view. So, that's my one characteristic.
SAMI: That's really interesting. And how have you found, I guess, in the world of consultancy, and when you're working with products, how have you found that's kind of helped you when it comes to the product ownership side of things?
JARED: Well, it's a constant reminder to do it myself; that's for one thing, especially dealing with a lot of different clients and a lot of different people. It's always really important to think about their perspective, their own customers' perspective.
SAMI: That's cool. I'll hand back to Will, but, Will, I'm not just going to hand it back to you for free, right? You're also going to have to do an icebreaker.
WILL: Let's do it.
SAMI: Will, would you rather receive a shout-out from the CEO at a company all-hands meeting or a private word of thanks from them?
WILL: Ooh, I'm usually a private person, so probably private. But I have learned in my leadership, and I've learned this, this is a lesson I've learned: it's like, praise publicly, but then, like, reprimand privately. And so, I think majority of the people like that. But I'm just a private individual person. So, I'm like, just tell me, and I'm okay with that. I don't need everyone else to tell me and to say, "Hey, Will, you did a good job." Because yeah, it just brings pressure and all of that to me. So, I'm more of a private individual. Because also, I can ask more questions then. I can get more detail around like, "Yo, what did you like? Why are you saying a thank you and a shout-out?" So, that's where I'm at.
SAMI: Okay, I'll hand back to Svenja.
SVENJA: Yeah, I think we should give it back to you as well. So, because I am able to open a website, so that's another lesson I learned: how to type it in.
SAMI: [chuckles]
SVENJA: And I do find a question for you. Since nobody skipped, we will remove that option for you, Sami. So, you only get one question and that is, what is one thing we would never guess about you?
SAMI: Oh, I love that. Should I say how much I hate podcasting?
SVENJA: [laughs]
SAMI: No, I'm kidding. I haven't done it enough yet to know if I hate it. Ooh, one thing. That kind of means I've got to reveal something, right? Because you would never guess this thing, and you would never know this thing. So, I am 32 years old, and my intention was never to be a developer, ever.
So, I actually wanted to be a psychotherapist, a cognitive behavioral therapist, to be precise. And I started on a master's course. I did it for six weeks, and then I realized I couldn't handle it. I had placements in a hospital, and the cases that we were dealing with it was too much for me. It was too overwhelming, and I didn't have the skills to kind of handle that as well as my own personal world.
So, at the age of about...I've got to remember what age it was. I think it was about 25 years old, 24, 25 years old. I already had one kid, and I was married with one child. And what am I going to do? My whole plan to be a psychotherapist that I'd done my undergraduate degree to go towards, and now I was on this master's just kind of fell apart.
So, it's like, what's the easiest thing I can do? And that was to learn to code, right [chuckles]? Well, I'd always been good at computers. I'd always been fixing things. I was always the one at home who'd been asked, you know, "There's a problem with this computer." Normally, it was the printer, and I hate printers, but that's for a totally other episode. I could do a whole episode on printers. My one next to me is currently plugged in. I don't use Wi-Fi—Bluetooth with it because it's just not worth it.
But either way, so I wrote my first line of code when I was 25. That was the first time I ever saw code, wrote HTML, and knew what it was. So, I never wanted to be a developer. Here I am all those years later, but it was never a plan, and I've found myself here. But I'm quite happy for it.
SVENJA: That is so interesting and definitely something I wouldn't have guessed.
SAMI: Yeah, it's been one hell of a journey, shall we say, but an exciting one.
SVENJA: I would be super interested how the others of you stepped into the world of tech, so to say.
JARED: Similar sort of thing to Sami in that I've always been interested, always been the sort of more technical, geekier person of the school and the social groups. And then, at uni, I actually took some computer science classes, and then quickly felt very confused and ended up doing a bachelor of commerce in marketing and management instead, which was a lot more straightforward basic business degree, sort of tick some things off. But still, like, throughout all that time, always just loved tech, loved reading about it, loved dabbling.
And I landed a job at a previous company that I just got a lot of freedom to help out where I needed, problem-solve, do lots of different things. It was quite a small business. I was able to level up a whole bunch of different skills, like some technical and some sort of more managerial as well. That's sort of how I got a lot of my knowledge and then moved on from there. How about you, Rémy?
RÉMY: I started in tech right away after high school. So, I had studied...I think we still call it multimedia. It was communication, coding, design, sound, video. I learned how to make step motions, you know, a lot of different things. It was kind of doing everything and trying to find the one thing that you actually like, and I found mine, which was actually coding.
I think I found what I liked when I was in school. I remember struggling on math homework. I don't have a very high background in math, but I used to enjoy it. I remember struggling on some homework, and the sensation when you finally find the answer, and you finally resolve the problem it was amazing. And I felt that again in coding. Like, you have a bug, or you have a feature, and you can't make it. And you try again, and you find some clues, but it doesn't work. And at some point, it works, and you finally made it. And it's an amazing sensation. I had it again, like yesterday. It's quite common. I love that so much. So, I think that's how I decided, okay, that's what I want to do every day.
SVENJA: Thank you so much, Rémy and Jared. What about you, Will?
WILL: Yeah, I think I've told this story before on the podcast, but I always love telling it again. I actually lost my job, and I was really struggling. And if you know me, fashion is not my thing at all, and I was working at this fashion store. It was this clothing store. I hated it. I hated it. Like, there's no shortage on that. I hated it [laughs]. I was working there, and then I also started working at this insurance place. We sold travelers insurance. So, it was very interesting to see how that works. And yeah, I'm not going to say too much about it, but yes, how that works [laughs].
But at that company, the one good thing about it was they were like, as long as you get your work done, you could do whatever you want. And so, one day, I was at home, and my partner was like, "You're struggling. You're just trying to figure out what you're trying to do, and you're struggling." So, she kind of walked me through, like, "What do you want to do?" And I was...when Sami mentioned the printer, I laughed because I was that person also. And printers are tricky because you never know what the real issue is. You just got to tinker with it and hope it works. And yes, you never get the same answer twice, I feel sometimes [laughs].
SAMI: I feel like all our listeners who are kind of really good at fixing printers are thinking like, oh my gosh, I'm going to work at thoughtbot now. I'm going to be an amazing developer one day.
WILL: You could. Why not [laughs]? And it's interesting you say that because, like, I was 29 or 30 whenever I started in the field. So, I was a little bit late, I feel sometimes, to get into development. But my wife, she asked me, "You're struggling. You need to do something because this is not going to work. We got to change it up." And I was like, well, I grew up in a small town in Louisiana, in the south of United States, and we didn't have anything tech there. It was just a rural place. And so I never had the opportunity to learn anything about computers. I guess the printer and stuff just came naturally to me, and this was before YouTube and all of that.
So, she challenged me. She said, "Go and learn it. Go figure it out. Go learn it." I did. And I forgot who mentioned; somebody mentioned something about being easy getting into development. It was not for me. I remember so many times at the coffee shop just, like, I don't know what I am doing. And if you know anything about me, I sometimes don't have the patience to slow down. And so, I came in, and I wanted to be a senior developer and produce like a senior developer. And I was sadly mistaken that that's not how it work. But five years now, I am a senior developer, so I've enjoyed it. I would not change it for anything, and I love it. So, it's been a good change for me, so I love tech.
SAMI: I think it's so helpful to kind of hear realistic expectations about how long it does take. It really is a skill. Some people often ask me, "What is one characteristic that kind of indicates success in the field?" And there isn't just one. But I definitely think that the ability to sit and spend time is so helpful. Because if you can spend time with something and just sit there and, like, be patient, like you were saying, often, you will get to a solution, and it will happen.
But it's about almost slowing yourself down and slowing your mind and your brain down. And we kind of call it in industry, you know, the concept of having a rubber duck, which is also a form of I'm stuck on something. I just need to speak this out, not necessarily with someone who can respond, but in a way that allows me to verbalize slowly what's going on. And you'll be surprised how often you reach a solution. So, that's really interesting.
So, yeah, we've got this great series coming. We have some great guests lined up. The advantage of doing this series over in Europe, West Asia, and Africa is we're going to get access to some guests within our time zones, within our region that this podcast has not been able to get access to before. And so, we are really excited about the people that we're going to bring on, and you're going to get to hear some of the most incredible podcasts that you've heard.
But we don't have a name. We still don't have a name. And I kind of set the challenge at the beginning of this podcast of, well, let's just come up with one. So, who wants to give a shout-out and think about, you know, what this name is going to be? Just to clarify, it's still going to be called the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, but where you see that kind of title of the individual episode, it will probably have a prefix of kind of the series name just so you know it's from us. Victoria, I feel like you're hiding away somewhere in the background, and I feel like you've got some suggestions up your sleeve.
VICTORIA: Yeah, so I love the name of the podcast. I like when I network, and I usually say that, "I'm, like, the co-host of the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots." So, I want to keep the name to be fun. And maybe it's giant robots in a different action like Giant Robots High-Fiving Other Giant Robots or Giant Robots Without Borders, or something like that. That's what I'm thinking.
SVENJA: I really like the Giant Robots Without Borders. I really like it.
JARED: Sami, you had a good one that I quite liked as well in the spirit of what we've been talking about: Giant Robots On Tour.
SAMI: Oh yeah, Giant Robots On Tour. That makes it sound, to me, like we're just going out and having a really fun time, not like we might not be doing sensible things, but we're going on tour. But that kind of also indicates, you know, what happens on tour stays on tour. And we probably need to be conscious that other people will listen to this. So, we have to maybe, like, tone it down if we are the giant robots who are on tour. But yeah, I like Giant Robots On Tour. This is cool. We're actually going to name our series.
VICTORIA: I do think it would be funny if it was, like, less...I don't want to say less violent, like, Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots, like, Giant Robots Knitting Socks or something, like [laughs], fun, nice, but maybe not as exciting.
SVENJA: Baking Bread Together [laughs].
VICTORIA: Giant Robots Baking Bread actually sounds pretty cool.
WILL: Giant Robots On Tour because it reminded me since we're talking about the different region, the great English rock band, the Beatles. That's what it reminded me of. So, shout out to the UK.
SAMI: Yeah. I actually often drive past...do you know where the Abbey Road studios were? And there's that famous picture of the Beatles on the album cover of where...I don't know which album it is. They're crossing that zebra crossing across the road. There's that picture of all of them. And what you get now is you get loads of tourists. And so, you're trying to drive your car, and they're just hanging out on the zebra crossing, trying to replicate that picture that they had on the album cover. If you're not familiar with what I'm talking about, just Google "Beatles zebra crossing album cover," and you'll get an idea of kind of what I have to face when I'm just trying to drive from A to B sometimes.
VICTORIA: Well, that's also part of, you know, bringing up why we were wanting to have some hosts in the Europe, West Asia, and Africa region, is there's a lot of context and things like calling it a zebra crossing. We call it a crosswalk. And just having more context and connection with our guests who are from that area would be really great.
I don't know if you all saw the pictures, but for the last RubyConf that was in San Diego, I actually made robot costumes out of cardboard boxes. And there's absolutely a picture of me in a giant robot costume sitting on a lounge chair outside in the sun. So, it might be perfect for your series.
SAMI: I think that's a great way to name things, right? Like, if you have a picture that works for a thing, then you have to kind of go with a name like that. Do we vote? How do we come up with it? Is this a democracy? Probably not.
JARED: Well, I think one thing we haven't clarified is that Sami, you're our primary co-host for the European adventure. So, maybe you should get the decider. Should you dictate to us?
SAMI: I feel like it's almost worth it kind of being the primary host just so I get to pick the name. So yeah, sure, I'm going to decide, so it's Sami's Giant Robots is going to be the name of this series. No, I'm kidding. Let's go with...okay, I'm stuck between without borders and on tour. I'm really stuck between those two. So, no one else can see this. I'm going to say, like, hands up if you want without borders. Hands up if you want on tour. Okay. Okay. Okay.
We're going to be calling our new series, with the most exciting guests that you've ever seen, Giant Robots On Tour. You've heard it here first. It's been announced.
WILL: Thank you for joining us. I look forward to the Giant Robots On Tour. I am excited about it. I love that we have the diversity at thoughtbot to be able to have this limited series. So, I'm excited to see what comes out of it. So, I can't wait to check it out. I'll be one of the first listeners on every podcast that comes out.
You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at [email protected].
You can find me on Twitter @will23larry.
This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time.
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Host Victoria Guido chats with Jaclyn Siu, the co-founder of Starcycle, an AI platform designed as a COO for small businesses. First, Jaclyn describes her entrepreneurial journey and what led her to Starcycle, detailing her earlier ventures, such as helping to scale a men's styling app and a software platform for authenticating high-end art.Her ultimate goal is to make the tools and experiences typically reserved for startup founders accessible to small business owners, who comprise most of the global business ecosystem. She outlines how Starcycle supports crucial phases in a business’s lifecycle—start-up, sale, or shutdown—by automating operations and documentation, easing burdens on business owners.Jaclyn also touches on the importance of personal connections and genuine curiosity in conducting user research and developing products that genuinely meet the needs of small businesses. She believes we can achieve this by being deeply rooted in empathy and strategically using technology like Starcycle.Starcycle (https://starcycle.ai/)Follow Starcycle on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/starcycleai/) or Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/jaclynsiu).Follow Jaclyn Siu on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/jaclynsiu/). Visit her website: jaclynsiu.com (https://jaclynsiu.com/)Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/).Transcript:VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Jaclyn Siu, Co-Founder of Starcycle, the AI COO for small businesses. Jaclyn, thank you for joining me. JACLYN: Thank you for having me. It's so fun to be here. VICTORIA: Great to be here with you as well. Before we get into learning more about Starcycle, can you tell me what's going on in your life outside of work that's exciting for you?JACLYN: This is a very big departure from what I do on a day-to-day basis, but I am a huge coffee fanatic. And so, I love sampling all different kinds of coffee beans from around the world. And this morning, actually, I just finished the last cup from this amazing roastery in Osaka, Japan. They're called Mel Coffee; shout out to Mel Coffee. That's what I spend a lot of my time outside of work doing is trying different coffee beans. VICTORIA: No, I love it. I love coffee as well. Actually, I am currently out of espresso beans. We have a fancy espresso machine maker. It's like our one big luxury in the house, and I don't have any coffee beans for it. So, I might need some recommendations from you [laughs] on what to get. JACLYN: My sympathies on the lack of coffee, but I have plenty of recommendations. We can absolutely jam on this afterwards. VICTORIA: Okay. Because you've traveled quite a bit, of all the places that you've been, where is the best cup of coffee that you've had? JACLYN: I mean, I definitely have my favorites. In New York where I am currently, I would say that honor belongs to The Coffee Project. Actually, it's a tie between The Coffee Project and Say Coffee.In Berlin, where I was based for the last seven years or so, I would say that honor goes to Bonanza Coffee. I used to go there every single day. And I attribute a lot of my success in Berlin to all the beautiful cups of coffee that they served me. In other places, I would say what comes to mind is for sure Mel Coffee in Osaka, Japan, also, Glitch Coffee in Tokyo. In Hong Kong, that would be Craft Coffee. Hong Kong is where I'm from originally, so I have a very big fondness for any local roasteries. And I am going to stop there because, otherwise, this would become a coffee podcast, and I don't think this is what we're here for [laughs]. VICTORIA: I think there's a pretty strong coffee interest in our listeners, but they can tell me if I'm wrong. No, I think that's great, and it tells us a little bit about yourself. So, you've lived in all these different places and all these backgrounds. Maybe you can tell us a little bit about how your background led you to starting Starcycle. JACLYN: Starcycle is my third company. I'm a three-time founder, advisor, investor, and mentor. I built my very first startup in my senior year of college, which was a men's personal styling app that surfaced shoppable outfits based on your calendar, style preferences, weather, and other things. And decided quite quickly early on, about a year in, that I wanted some real-world experience before understanding what it's like to run and build a company. I realized, hey, I need to know what it's like to be in one before I can build one. So, I spent the next decade-plus in the creative culture and tech spaces, everything from sales and partnerships to marketing growth and operations. I worked on really exciting things from album releases for Rihanna to closing brand deals with TikTok. So, that led me to New York, to Berlin, and now back to New York, which has been really fun. My second startup was co-founded over the height of the pandemic, and we built software for blue chip art galleries and working with them to authenticate blue chip and high-end physical art pieces. We authenticated $63 million worth of art in the company's lifetime.The even tide of that, so towards the end of my second venture, that kind of initially planted the seed for Starcycle because we had been facing some more difficult times, and we were facing some pretty difficult decisions. I just had this Eureka moment, so to speak, where I was like, hey, I know firsthand how difficult it is to found a business. I want to use my knowledge to help at least one person get over the finish line. And I explored so many different permutations of that. I spoke to startup founders to small business owners, spent hundreds of hours exploring different ways that I could use tech to empower founders, and eventually ended up with Starcycle, which, as you mentioned earlier, is the AI COO for small businesses. And what we do is we are supporting business owners at the mission-critical stages of their business life cycle, so the startup phase, the selling phase, which is when they're hoping to sell or get acquired, and also the shutdown phase. And so, we review and parse through key documentation and automate key operational tasks such as licensing, identifying engagement terms, drafting disclosure statements, et cetera, et cetera. So, it's very much born out of my own experience as the COO and also as an operator for many different kinds of businesses. I grew up in a very entrepreneurial family of restauranteurs. My dad runs his own practice as a doctor. And I have cousins and other extended family members who are accountants and have their own practices. Somehow, half of my generation in my family are all startup founders now, so that has been really cool just being immersed in that, and also, yeah, wanting to use tech to give back, essentially. VICTORIA: I love that connection with your family and how that mindset is a part of your culture and who you are. It's really interesting to hear and replay a little bit back of what you said about, you know, you knew you were entrepreneurial, but you wanted more experience. And then, you got to go through starting your own company several times. And now you're trying to share the experience you got from that with other founders. JACLYN: Exactly. And what drew me to small businesses, really, was that startups do have quite a lot of help. Of course, we can argue perhaps a separate episode on how this support is distributed and whether or not it's equitable, but startups do tend to hog a lot of the headlines and a lot of the glamour and the glitz of being a founder.And where I was really drawn to was the day-to-day coffee shop owners; for example, that was a big one, or just the fact that 99% of businesses around the world are considered small businesses. And I said there has to be a way to take a lot of the great tools and services that we have enjoyed as startup founders and kind of make that a lot more accessible to the people who really need it. And so, that was really the big bow on top for me to start working on Starcycle. VICTORIA: Yeah. It's interesting to think about accessibility and inclusivity, and not just access to funding, but access to tools, access to knowledge, and support, and getting your business up and off the ground. JACLYN: Exactly. I think the knowledge piece is a big one. And with knowledge, of course, comes support, as you say, and both of those things require a lot of hands-on education but also guidance. And one thing that I've learned over my career as an operator but also as a serial founder is how much that initial touch point really matters for folks.And so, when I say that, I mean, just think about the very first time you encountered a new piece of technology and the feeling that inspired in you and how you felt like that new piece of tech, for better or for worse, reinforced, or not, that feeling. I've been really lucky to be at the forefront of helping a lot of people navigate these experiences, from helping fashion brands at the very beginning of my career, helping fashion brands understand social media.This was before sponsored content was a thing. We still called them bloggers back in the day. Yeah, teaching them that social media is going to be an asset for brand marketing, and kind of being on the first wave of tech partnerships, and embracing social media as a platform, to working with artists to get them onboarded and comfortable with streaming. So, I was at Roc Nation at the time when streaming was really just starting to take off. It was the same year that Jay acquired Tidal. And so, there was a seismic shift in how the music industry as a whole was grappling with this new tech. Fast forward to working with art galleries, probably one of the most difficult technical nuts to crack, so to speak, and working with traditionally folks who reject new technology and are wary of software that doesn't offer the same level of discretion or convenience that they are used to, and working to get them excited about software solutions that are built just for them.And so, the through line, for me, you know, as I look back, is how can I take something scary, and intimidating, and difficult to understand for your person who is chronically offline, so to speak, and translate that into an experience that they look forward to that makes them see, "Oh, this is not just some sci-fi hubbub; it's not just what the Yahoo's at Silicon Valley are up to; this is going to help me and what I care about"? And that particular thought process, that particular intersection, is what really gets me going every day. VICTORIA: That's really interesting. And it reminds me of friends that I have who have really deep domain expertise in certain things like nutrition, and coaching, and early childhood intervention and development. And they're asking me, someone who has, like, a connection to founders and startups, about, like, "How do I get my thing going? Like, how do I take this knowledge and build a business around it?" So, maybe you can tell me a little more about what research you're doing with these groups of people, with these small businesses. And what kind of questions are you asking, and what kind of things are you finding? JACLYN: Sure. So, I started with a hypothesis, which was this slightly more nebulous notion that everyone will have an AI copilot. And so, I started to workshop what that could look like for a business owner, specifically because 78% of small businesses are owned and operated by one person. And my expertise or experience as a founder is having had a co-founding team where we can fill each other's gaps, and lift each other up, and work on different things. And a lot of small business owners don't have that luxury. So, I said, okay, this is a problem that I have noticed. I am going to explore this to every single nook and cranny I can possibly find. And that led me to experiment with different ways to apply AI to this particular problem. I started looking at the early stage founding stage, where business owners are identifying their next steps to get their next big thing off the ground. They're navigating bureaucracy and figuring out what licenses they need what paperwork they need to file to make certain things a reality. And that, to me, felt like an easy place to start because it is a very well-documented and well-accounted-for space. So, we quickly shipped an early beta feature just to gauge market sentiment and to see what people were really looking for. There really is no shortcut here, in my opinion. It's really about putting in the time and the effort to talk to everyone that is interested in finding a new solution for something that has deeply plagued them in some way or another. In a way, putting on different hats as a psychologist almost, like, understanding where their pain points are really stemming from. Is it, like, an operational thing? Is it an emotional thing? All the way to introducing them to something new, which involves reimagining what that user experience could look like, all the way to just being open and having a clear line of communication. I talk to our users almost every day. We're on calls; we're on emails. And I just love hearing from them, and they know that they can come to me and talk to me about things. I've consulted for some of our small business owners before who come to me with different questions like, "Hey, can you help me with this business plan?" Anyway, so, through all of those conversations, I started to stitch together a few things. The first being that AI is changing so rapidly, and, of course, this is something that is challenging but also incredibly exciting because no one really knows where it's going. We're all kind of testing out our hypotheses in real-time. We're all building towards that reality we want to see. So, noticing that a lot of co-pilot promises we were still, or at least I feel like, we're still a little bit far away from that. And so, I started examining, okay, what is AI already currently really good at and will only get better at? And how can that be applied to something that all business owners have to face?And so, I expanded my search into other life stages of a business, and I identified that over hundreds of hours of conversations as the M&A stage and the closure stage. The M&A space is very exciting. It is also very well accounted for. And, currently, I'm spending quite a lot of time looking into the bankruptcy aspect, the end of life, something that, unfortunately, a lot of businesses will have to go through. And yeah, really studying that space, deeply realizing that we can probably find a, if I may use this as a verb, a "turbo tax" for all of these different key operational moments for every small business, right? So, we can, quote, unquote, "turbo tax" starting a business. We can, quote, unquote, "turbo tax" trying to sell your business. We can turbo tax, closing down your life's work and trying to find a good place to put it to rest. VICTORIA: How do you find people to be a part of the research? And how do you make sure that you're being inclusive or, you know, going after the right groups?JACLYN: To the best of my ability. I start within my own networks. Luckily, since at this point, I have built quite a lot of friendships and relationships just within founders of all different kinds, I started by reaching out to different founders and just approached it with a lot of curiosity. I was like, "Hey, what are you working on? What is troubling you? How could I help?" And approaching it from a place of "How can I help?" as opposed to "How can you help me?" You being, of course, the founder I was speaking to. Yeah, really just being in the position of I want to learn from you, I would say, in hindsight, has been the key to a lot of folks being willing to speak with me. And then, of course, on the call itself, when I do manage to get that scheduled, when I speak to them, and doing everything to make them feel heard, to make them feel welcomed. I show up to every single call prepared about this person. I have my questions prepared. Usually, within Calendly, for example, people should fill out what their profile kind of is. So, we do a lot of that pre-work and get that out of the way. And it also helps me prepare for the call. Weirdly enough, it's almost like preparing for a podcast interview. And then, from those calls, I always ask like, "Hey, I really appreciate you spending time talking to me. Do you know one person who would be willing to do the same thing?" And I would say, nine times out of 10, the answer is "Yes." And then, I get a follow-up email being like, "I loved talking to you. Here's my friend who is also facing a similar thing. I already told them about our conversation. They would love to speak with you." And it just kind of flows from there. And so, I guess to sum it all up, it really is being thoughtful with your relationships and letting that compounding effect work itself. And at this stage, like, as an early-stage founder, you and your...I don't like the word reputation, but I can't think of a better one right now. Your reputation is really what the currency is, and people typically want to help. And they also want to feel helpful, and they want you to show that they were helpful. And yeah, that has been something that I've seen a lot of success with personally, whether it's through user interviews or approaching it from, like, a sales and partnerships perspective. VICTORIA: I agree. I think I found the same thing where, what you want to call it, and it's your reputation or your authenticity and your genuine interest in solving the problem that you're going after. I think a lot of people are, you know, of course, they want to talk about things that are bothering them, and they want to see other founders succeed, and it's part of a community. So, it's really nice to hear that's been working for you. JACLYN: I'm so lucky that this particular thing is what really excites me about being a founder is: having that opportunity to have these conversations. Also, at this point, probably my superpower that I feel like I can draw from so many different experiences to be a good sounding board for whoever it is that I'm talking to. And I remember this so clearly from my previous venture where we were building software for art galleries, and we had some of the most commercially successful artists and art galleries of modern times. And they went on record saying that, you know, they're switching their solutions, or they're coming on board for the first time. And they're not considering any other potential incumbents or competitors simply due to our ability or my ability to talk to them like equals, talk to them like people. They were like, "We spoke to so many founders who were building different kinds of tech solutions for the art industry or the art world. And we always really felt kind of small talking to them because they were throwing a lot of jargon at us. They essentially wanted us to operate under a cloud of confusion so that, hopefully, we would just go along with whatever they say. And you were really the only one who would sit down, take the time to explain, take the time to hear us out, and kind of meet us where we are and see us people."And I was really kind of taken aback by that. And I do think that advice applies generally, but especially when it comes to speaking to folks who identify so deeply with what they do, like small business owners, it is so key to really just treat them with respect. I mean, ultimately, that's really what it's about. Like, you respect that they know things that you don't, and you don't lord anything you know that they don't over them.VICTORIA: I really appreciate that perspective. And I'm curious if maybe there are some core values from your educational background in journalism that flows through into your being a founder and how you have these conversations with people. Are there any core values that translate from that? JACLYN: I love to listen. I'm just such a curious person. Yeah, I guess you could say that it is a journalistic approach to, you know, ask open questions and let the person feel like they are steering the conversation, and, you know, being that safe space that they know whatever it is they're saying is being taken seriously. One of my personal philosophies when it comes to founding is that I let the problem tell me how it wants to be solved. I have a general direction, right? Like, my North Star is that I want to use tech to empower founders; in the same way, you could say that you might start writing a piece with the general idea of like, hey, this is what I want to write about. And I'm open to letting my subjects kind of steer where they really care about so that, like, I end up writing something that is compelling for everybody. And so, yeah, I'm always open to finding the best way. This openness and curiosity, really, has led me to meet some really interesting people and dive through some very fascinating rabbit holes that I might not have done so otherwise. VICTORIA: Oh, that's really cool. No, I like that a lot. That's super interesting. MID-ROLL AD:Are your engineers spending too much time on DevOps and maintenance issues when you need them on new features?We know maintaining your own servers can be costly and that it’s easy for spending creep to sneak in when your team isn’t looking.By delegating server management, maintenance, and security to thoughtbot and our network of service partners, you can get 24x7 support from our team of experts, all for less than the cost of one in-house engineer.Save time and money with our DevOps and Maintenance service. Find out more at: tbot.io/devops.VICTORIA: So, in these conversations, you're having in your early discovery process, were there any points where you decided to pivot your strategy based on what you learned?JACLYN: I would say that the most interesting point was...I think this is probably, like, the clearest example of...whether it's a pivot, or, like, a redirection, whatever you want to call it. This was before I kind of arrived at the stage of bankruptcy or the idea of bankruptcy, which is where I'm really diving deep to at the moment. I had already spoken to a lot of founders in kind of the early stage of starting the business when I was talking to them about, like, "How can a tool like Starcycle help you on your journey?"And a lot of them were like, the ultimate milestone was, of course, to sell the business, that they want that ROI, that they want to know that, you know, something that they've worked so hard on was going to end up in great hands. And so, I started examining that side of the spectrum. So, that was, I guess, refocusing number one, which was, okay, I want to understand the buy-sell space, kind of the M&A space, to hear what success factors led people there.I spoke to everyone I could think of on that end of the spectrum, you know, people who had sold a business, people who tried to sell but didn't sell, people who acquired a business, people in private equity who are looking to buy and operate a business, you know, different buy and sell marketplaces, so on and so forth.And this one conversation with the head of M&A at a language company it was a nice chat. And he kind of mentioned as a throwaway, "Oh, by the way, like, one thing we also look at are distressed assets." That was it. And I said, "Okay, let's unpack that a bit," and just kind of left the rest of my questions. And we started going in that direction. And then, I realized it's a different side of the same coin, exploring M&A and closure, because they are, unfortunately, very closely related to one another. They are both on the ends, like, end of the life cycle.And so, that one comment which might not have occurred, you know, let's say if the person didn't feel like he had a safe space to kind of open up about his process, that has sent me on another journey to really, really dig deep into this very opaque and difficult area, where I'm actually, again, really, really excited to really unpack: How can we help people at the time of need, and how can we use tech to do a lot of the heavy lifting to free them up for very emotionally taxing tasks? Which, of course does happen at that end of the life cycle. I still very much believe in the overall idea of using AI to help small business owners end to end, but really, I found this particular wedge because I guess I was open to that. And someone dropped the crumb, and I was like, "Let's take that path. Let's talk about it. " VICTORIA: So, it had a high emotional element there, and there's a lot of tasks associated with it that would make it a good use case for AI to support that particular phase of the life cycle? JACLYN: Yeah, that's absolutely my hypothesis right now. I've been validating this with different small business owners who have, unfortunately, had to close their business. I'm also talking to bankruptcy attorneys. And so, yeah, I guess we'll see what that process looks like. By the time this episode is up and running, I might have found the right angle to tackle this problem, or I might have just found some other opening to look at. So, I guess it really is up for grabs at the moment, which is a very exciting part of being at the early stage, but, of course, also slightly terrifying [laughs]. VICTORIA: Well, we'll have to have you back on in a year to check in and see how things have progressed. But it makes sense to me. And in all of my recent experience just hearing from founders around San Diego, it sounds like if you're going to be a founder, you are going to have to shut down a business at least once [laughs]. Like, usually, you found multiple businesses and that means that you do have to close or, you know, go through this final action at least one time. You will be very lonely being a founder, and I can see having support through that time and having it be easy could be really helpful and make it seem, you know, easy and maybe even just, like, make it easier to start things up again, too.JACLYN: For sure. And I love that you touched on the starting again because founders, typically, more often than not, have this very stubborn optimism that we're like, we're going to figure it out one day, and we're going to do it. And at the risk of sounding a bit hokey, bankruptcy can be a beautiful thing. It is, of course, incredibly emotionally difficult. But what I find really incredible is the notion of bankruptcy was really born out of this idea of we recognize that you took a huge risk. And even though the risk didn't pan out in the way that we all hoped that it would, we don't want to penalize you further for having taken that risk. So, here is some protection so that when you are ready again, you can start again. And I just find that sentiment very, very powerful. And I've certainly seen that to be true in my own experience. So, this really is, like, I feel like my heart and soul problem, you know what I mean? Again, of course, I'm back to my core value I mentioned earlier. I'm open to letting the problem tell me how it wants to be solved. And so, I'm going through that process again to find, okay, what is it in this journey that I can solve with AI? And so, yeah, we can check back in however long, maybe six months, a year or so, and then see where. I would love for you to hold me to that.VICTORIA: Absolutely. I will. I'd love that. Yeah. And, well, on that note, then, what are the biggest challenges you see on the horizon in the next six months? JACLYN: I would say the biggest challenge that's coming on the horizon really is, to me, what is very exciting. I alluded to this earlier, but it really is this notion that, of course, we all recognize that AI is disrupting. It has already disrupted a lot of what we know to be true. We're all just testing out our hypotheses in real-time. No one really knows in what direction this wind is blowing. I don't think people could even agree on what AGI means, right? Like, AGI, is it, like, a very, very general thing, or is it AGI for X, AGI for Y? Like, what does that look like? And I don't think there's, like, a consensus on what this looks like, right?So, in a way, every founder building in this space, including myself, we're all just working towards what we think that reality is and what reality it is that we want to see. It's a huge challenge because we're quite literally building what has never really existed before. And it is a feeling that I'm personally, luckily, very familiar with, I get super energized by. We're in the beginning. Everyone says this, right? "We're so early," but we really, really are so early in this new wave. And I'm really looking forward to drawing on all of my experiences being at the forefront of various other big changes and applying them to this very particular change.And then, of course, I'm also a little bit nervous about this. I think anyone would be nervous knowing that the tide could change at any moment. I'm also not delusional about this per se, but I'm definitely optimistic. I think we're going to see a lot of generational companies built at every single possible intersection of AI and something. So, it's like AI for small businesses, right? Or you could even go even more granular. There's going to be an AI for hair salons. There's going to be AI for coffee roasters. There's going to be just so many ways to capture this new energy and this revolution that I am very intimidated, but I'm really excited about this.VICTORIA: So, the gravity and the size and scope of the change, and that being unknown, and also what you mentioned on the tech stack, having that variability and just knowing you might have to pivot or change very quickly, is an exciting challenge as well. JACLYN: It is. It definitely is. And, of course, it's a tough one to solve for sure. Any founder who wants to build something, really now is the time to just give it a shot because there are so many intersections up for grabs, and that doesn't come around very often. VICTORIA: That's really great. And I love your approach to that by just trying to see how can you use your expertise and follow the problem and see what solution comes up that is worth focusing on? So, I really appreciate you sharing that. I'm curious if you know what success looks like six months from now or even five years from now for Starcycle. JACLYN: I would say in six months, I would envision, at this stage, having maybe a small suite, but a suite nonetheless, of different aspects of the small business life cycle, the mission-critical stages I spoke about, having the, quote, unquote, "different turbo taxable features" live. And so, we're already able to start really moving the needle for these folks. We have our first test feature live in beta. We're already helping close to 1,200 business owners. So, I'm really looking forward to just increasing that number.In five years, I would really love for us to be at that stage where we are helping small business owners end to end. And so, I do see AI growing at a rate or the capabilities of AI growing at a rate way faster than any of us can imagine. So, I'm going to just throw this out there and say, in five years, I would love for Starcycle to be, like, a true AI COO on every single step of the way, like, a real strategic thought partner, executional partner for your small business that you otherwise wouldn't have. And you're in the trenches with your AI COO, and we're going to help you build the best business you possibly can. And we'll take care of your end to end. And that, I would say, is my ultimate grand vision. So, I guess let's check back and see what happens. VICTORIA: I like that. And, you know, that's a really awesome future vision to build towards. And in the immediate term, I'm curious to ask you more about Starcycle and how AI and people work together to give leaders confidence that the COO is giving them good answers and all that. JACLYN: One thing that we noticed while we were developing our beta and continuing to improve on our current offering is coming to the realization that we want to focus on what AI is currently already really good at and will only get better over time and, to us, that was data parsing, data optimization, formatting, data extraction. And so, that's where the next immediate stage of product development is going to go is really leaning into this data extraction aspect. And we feel like this true thought partner; strategic partner thing will happen over time once we have, like, a lot bigger pool of data of your business to work with, where we can connect dots that you might not have otherwise been able to connect, whether it's because you physically do not have the time, or you may not have the knowledge to, let's say, comb through your monthly P&Ls to draw out certain trends in the way that AI can really do for you.So, we're acknowledging the current limitations of AI while maintaining optimism on kind of the long run of what we think AI is going to do. And so, I think for the small business owners that we're currently supporting, we are very much on deck as humans to help them with some of the more strategic moments. And our users know that they can find us anytime. And for a lot of the more data operational action item-driven tasks that they need help with, then AI can step in fairly comfortably and help them in the majority of the cases. VICTORIA: That sounds really cool. I like how you broke that up. Do you have anything else you'd like to promote? JACLYN: I'm open to so many different kinds of conversations. And every single conversation is helpful. So, please reach out or sign up, try the product.We look at every single survey. I respond to every single survey personally with follow-up questions if you'll allow them. So, I really just want to help anyone who's listening. Whatever problem it is that you're dealing with on your founding journey, I'm here to help. So, in whatever way that I can help you, please let me know. I would love to hear from you. VICTORIA: I read in your background that also includes asking you questions about your time working with Rihanna. Is that right? You're open? JACLYN: [laughs] Correct. I suppose. Yes. If that is of interest, we can certainly talk about it [laughs]. VICTORIA: Oh, that's great. No, I love that, the detail on that. And then, also, we didn't get to talk everything else about your background. You also have that you're an angel investor, and you also are just a general incredible mentor and coach. So, I don't know if there's anything else you wanted to share about that. JACLYN: I think part of it is also really driven by my passion to empower folks with technology. And a lot of that component, as we've alluded to multiple times over this podcast, is the educational component. And I think I've been really lucky to be exposed to a lot of new things throughout my life. And I want to play even some small part in helping other people encounter tech in what they perceive to be a safe and gentle way. And so, that's what I'm really excited about. I do occasionally write small checks to companies and founders that I believe in. I spend time guest lecturing at colleges and also mentoring young girls and young women. And, generally, I'm an open book if you want to ask me about how I taught myself stop motion video editing to do something for Rihanna, all the way to how on earth did you find it in yourself to do a third company. I just want to help anyone and everyone who wants to make that difference in the world to be that difference that they're looking for. VICTORIA: Yeah, you know what always gets me excited about tech? Is when people use tech to solve simple problems that helps everyday people. You know, I'm from Washington D.C. I spend time on the side from doing consulting with big federal agencies. I was helping startup nonprofits that were working to end homelessness and solve communication problems with nonprofit organizations sharing their services to people who needed them and that type of tech.And I've been in California now for three years, and I've started rebuilding my networking here. And I'm starting to find those people who are working on those kinds of projects. So, I'm really excited to build a little community here in San Diego and to start giving back to some of those groups again.JACLYN: Yeah, that's really, really awesome. And that really is what keeps drawing me back to founding is knowing that whether it's founding a non-profit initiative, or a startup, or opening up a coffee shop, like, I keep coming to coffee shops because, of course, I have a deep appreciation for them. But, ultimately, it really is such a tangible way to provide and to give back. And I can't quit.VICTORIA: I mean, I could quit. I could quit and just, like, rock climb and be bad at surfing for the rest of my life, but I won't. But yes, thank you so much for taking the time to be with us here today, Jaclyn. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at [email protected]. And you can find me on thoughtbotsocial@vguido. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. AD:Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us.More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at: [email protected] with any questions.
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Host Victoria Guido interviews Krish Ramineni, founder and CEO of Fireflies, who provides insights into the evolution of Fireflies. This AI meeting assistant transcribes and summarizes meetings in multiple languages. He explains the rapid advancements in AI models that have allowed Fireflies to expand its language support and improve its transcription and note-taking capabilities. The conversation shifts to the broader AI industry, where Krish comments on democratizing AI technology, making it more accessible and practical for various applications beyond just number crunching. He emphasizes the importance of AI in enhancing productivity and enabling small teams to achieve large-scale impacts.
Victoria and Krish explore the future of work with AI, discussing the balance between job creation and replacement. Krish argues that rejecting AI is akin to dismissing essential technological advancements like email, highlighting businesses' need to adapt and embrace AI tools. They also touch on Fireflies' journey to enterprise-level adoption, addressing challenges like data security and compliance. Krish shares his optimism about AI's potential to augment human productivity and creativity, positioning AI as a transformative force that can empower individuals and organizations to achieve unprecedented efficiency and innovation.
Fireflies (https://fireflies.ai/)
Follow Fireflies on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/fireflies-inc/), Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/firefliesapp), Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/firefliesai/), YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZHSvxWARx0TRK77t1AbY0A), or X (https://twitter.com/firefliesai).
Follow Krish Ramineni on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/krishramineni/).
Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/).
Transcript:
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VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido, and with me today is Krish Ramineni, Founder and CEO of Fireflies. Krish, great to be here with you.
KRISH: It's great to be here. Thanks for having me.
VICTORIA: Wonderful. Before we dive into what Fireflies is all about and start talking about AI, just in your personal world, what are you learning right now?
KRISH: Well, I'm traveling this summer, and I've always wanted to speak multiple languages, both for functional reasons and to be able to actually enjoy my travel experiences. So, I'm trying to learn Spanish. I took three years in high school, but I forgot everything, and I'm trying to pick that up. I'm also trying to learn Hindi. We have teammates that are in both Latin America as well as India. And so, both of these would be really valuable [chuckles] to learn. I probably need to get a tutor, something that I'm working on right now.
VICTORIA: Yeah. How are you learning? Are you using an app? You said you might get a tutor.
KRISH: Yeah. I started looking at Duolingo. I started doing flashcards. There are online instructors. So, I'm just trying to learn the quickest way possible so that I can get just the basic, common phrases down that I could understand so that I can ask questions and understand what people are saying when they're giving me directions on the streets. So, that's the plan. I don't expect to be a fluent speaker. You know, I always wondered, too, like, since we work in this AI space, if we could build a tool that, in real-time, could translate what I'm saying into the local language and the local language into English using my voice. That would be pretty cool.
So, I think our whole mission is around like, eliminating communication barriers. But as I've been trying to learn new languages, this is something I realized is...it's a big world out there, and a lot of people in the U.S. only know one language, whereas people in other countries know multiple languages. And yeah, something that I didn't really appreciate growing up or being in high school. But now I'm realizing, like, the immense benefits of being able to speak multiple languages. So, I'm trying [laughs].
VICTORIA: Right. And I think the benefits even to your brain health and your way of thinking is really exciting. I also learned Spanish from a really young age and grew up with it. And recently, you know, I moved to San Diego, so I have a lot more exposure to people who are just speaking Spanish all the time and getting to overhear little bits of conversation, or at a restaurant, even though right now I usually end up ordering incorrectly [laughs] and getting a little bit of surprise. But it's, like, really sweet to be able to connect with people in the community at that level.
And last year, I went to Japan for a conference for Ruby, and I learned just a little bit of Japanese. And it just made me so happy, for some reason, to be able to say even a couple of words and a couple of phrases and to have other people, like, say that I was doing a good job [laughs]. You know, like, it's just really nice, especially if you're traveling a lot, and you want to actually connect to people to be able to share that language.
Yeah, it's interesting about AI translating there. I will say the translators that we had in Japan they may be caught about 60%. Like, you know, and then with context, it was quite difficult. So, yeah, I'd be curious how AI could address that and even get more personal and being able to use a voice and added more information into that, so you get that full translation.
KRISH: Yeah. Local languages and, like, the common phrases. So, for example, the Spanish that's spoken in Spain is going to have different phrases than the ones spoken in Mexico or in other places, right? So, that's also really interesting to think about how local dialects, accents all play into it.
Growing up, I used to love watching Bollywood Indian movies, and I would need subtitles. And I slowly started to get to a place where I can still understand what's going on without subtitles. It's really interesting that some of those jokes and some of the things that are said don't really translate exactly into English, right? Like, someone that's a native English speaker wouldn't quite get it. There's a lot more to language than just the words that are used. It's like the culture, the phrases, the people. And so, that's the beauty. That's the beauty of this world. There's so much diversity.
VICTORIA: So, I'm curious. As a founder of an AI app that takes recordings of people's meetings and turns it into summarized language, are the models based primarily on English, obviously, right away? And how are you thinking about incorporating other languages into your model?
KRISH: When we started, it was primarily English. Fireflies would take notes in English. It would transcribe English meetings. And then, this past year, we started support for 60 different languages, including Spanish, French, German, Hindi, and so many more. And on top of the transcription, we now can also do AI note-taking in some of these other languages. So, if you have a meeting in Portuguese, the summaries and notes will be in Portuguese.
We have a big global presence today with Fireflies. It's used in over a hundred countries and lots of different languages. And I would say the foreign language segment of our market is growing incredibly quickly. And we also hear requests from people where they have people that speak different languages because they have global teams in meetings. And it would be super helpful to be able to translate and transcribe and so that when they look back, they can get help and understand or clarify certain things.
Yeah. I think language when we started, and most of these LLMs (large language models) were primarily built around English, right? Especially transcription and speech. But there are companies coming out that are now building these models that give better representation to other languages. And we will have AI that will be able to understand and speak many different languages. And just the rate at which this technology is changing, I'm super impressed.
I read somewhere that they were building a model back in the day before the whole ChatGPT, where they were using reinforcement learning and transfer learning, where they were able to teach it one language. And it was able to quickly pick up another language, even though it wasn't taught to them. So, AI works in very magical ways [laughs].
VICTORIA: That's really cool. I wish that I worked that way with Portuguese because I was like, oh, I know Spanish okay sometimes. And then, I was like, but Portuguese when I read it, the words make sense, but then hearing it, the pronunciation being totally different, it's like [laughs] a long way to go. But that's really interesting. And you've already started to talk a little bit about the changes in the industry and what you're seeing as the new capabilities for AI. Can you tell me more about that? What other changes do you see in the industry in the last, like, year or even, like, a couple of months?
KRISH: At least in the last two years, people's perception of how hard it is to deploy AI has changed. Before, you needed to have a PhD. You needed to write a lot of code, and the AI was not practical. Now, AI is just a few lines of code. You don't even have to be technical to deploy AI. And you can ask it to do a lot more than crunching numbers, and that's what's so powerful. And we are getting these generalized models where, in the past, if you had, like, an AI model, it could do one thing like classification or sentiment analysis.
Right now, I have AI that can give me French poetry. It can generate images. It can summarize things. It can help me have a conversation with it and learn how to improve my speaking skills. AI is trained on the web, right? And whatever is on the web, it's a reflection of that. So, that also comes with the good and the bad. The good being that it knows what most humans feel and think and can relate to. And the bad, though, is there's a lot of nonsense on the web, so a lot of the bias, a lot of the information that it's getting.
AI today can, with confidence say the wrong answer and believe that that is the right answer. So, that is one of the risks. Some people call this hallucination, where the AI goes haywire and wonky. But I'm hoping that with time, that does get solved; we have better guardrails and parameters. Some people will say that hallucination is a feature and not a bug because it's letting the AI be more expressive. But everyone's understanding of truth should not be, I think, different. Like, I think there is one set of truth sometimes, and you don't want the AI to misinterpret that.
So, yeah, I think it's an exciting time. And more people like our company are embracing and adopting AI into their core products. And it's causing incredible productivity gains. But it's nowhere perfect. People talk about this AGI, (artificial general intelligence). I think we're a little bit away from that, but we're moving fast. Like, this stuff is happening at an exponential rate.
In technology, there was this Moore's law, right? With the number of transistors and how amazing and exponentially better the chips got. We saw that with storage, right? The cost of cloud storage when it first came out was so expensive. Now it's super cheap. If you remember, back in the day, you got, like, a USB card where it could probably store, like, 10 megabytes. Now it can do, like, 10 gigabytes to, like, one terabyte. And the cost is, like, super affordable.
If you think about TVs that came out in the past, right? Like, getting a 60-inch TV was super expensive. Like, a 40-inch TV was super expensive. Now everything is, like, LCD. You get, like, 60, 70 inches. And the price is the same as what a 40-inch TV was back then.
So, AI is all of that and some more. It's moving at a rapid pace. Like, technology, as an industry, like, it's moving so quickly, and AI is moving more quickly than what most people can keep up with. So, that has pros and cons. We can dive into that more. But, yeah, things are changing on a weekly basis, not on a yearly basis right now.
VICTORIA: Right. And there's a few directions we can go in from there, I think, that are really interesting, right? There's, like, the future of work with AI because I can relate to a feeling of fear and anxiety about what is this new technology? Am I going to lose my job? And when I talk about it with people I'm mentoring, I try to position it more as this is going to change the way we work. You're still going to need people to do stuff.
But if you're rejecting AI because you think it's just a fad or it's just silly, like, I think it is fundamentally changing the way people are going to do their jobs if you pursue that. And I think if you're capable with using AI as a tool, you're going to be more powerful than you've ever been in your job in most cases.
KRISH: Rejecting AI is like someone rejecting email for faxing and sending paper mail by hand. You just cannot compete, right? Imagine if you were a business that said, "I don't believe in AI. I'm going to do everything old school." You'd be like, today, okay, cool. You should do that. And imagine if you're a business today that says, "I don't use email. I will physically mail everything to you handwritten." So, that's what it's going to be like in a few months to a year. Like, this stuff is happening quick.
And I always like to say that AI will it create more jobs? Yes. Will AI replace jobs? Yes. But the probability of someone using AI who will replace you is far greater. So, AI isn't going to replace you as much as someone using AI is going to replace you. It's a skill set that we have to all learn, just like how we had to learn to use a computer, to use the internet, to use the smartphone. This is the same thing here. Like, we're going to all have to learn to use it and learn to interact and gel with AI in the workplace.
VICTORIA: Absolutely. And how does that relate to what you learned in your journey with Fireflies and talking to people about AI? How have those conversations gone forward?
KRISH: Fireflies at the core is this AI meeting assistant that joins your meetings. It takes notes. It helps you remember what was discussed before a meeting, during a meeting, and after a meeting. It helps me recall any information that I talked about. If we met six months ago and I'm meeting you again, it has the notes for me. It lets me search back through it. It lets me ask it questions about what you talked about. What were the next steps? What were the action items?
So, it's giving me structure to my life because a lot of my life is having meetings with lots of people and having many conversations, and then recalling those conversations and staying on top of that. It gives me structure in terms of what I do day in and day out.
I always believe that work originates from conversations. Meetings are some of the most valuable conversations that we tend to have. It's also very expensive for an organization to have meetings. Because when you get four people in a room who are all making six figures and spending an hour having meetings, that information, whatever is discussed, can have a huge cost to the business. But it can also have a huge potential to move the business in the right direction. So, organizing all of that knowledge that originates from meetings was the initial vision of Firefly.
Before all of this AI and ChatGPT hype, that was what we'd set out to do. The LLMs and AI help us do that job better: summarize the meetings better, generate better action items, create meeting outlines, allow you to search back. Instead of searching by keywords, you can now ask specific questions and talk to AI. So, this is what AI enables people to do, especially with Fireflies, is you can now interact with Fireflies like you would with a teammate, and that has changed the way people feel and use our product.
And people don't come out and say, "Hey, you're replacing secretaries. You're replacing the intern that I've hired to take notes for me. Like, you are replacing the job that the new hire has to do because it's a rite of passage." 95% of people will not make that argument because it's actually silly because your assistant, your interns, your new hires have better things to do. And these are the mundane, monotonous stuff that you should delegate to AI. Obviously, you can have humans review all of that, have their own, you know, take on it, generate reports. But it's actually leveling them up to be more productive and be more valuable to your organization.
So, I think there's a lot of pieces of AI that will do the same. You know, other technologies like, for example, AI that generates images or graphic designs that's not going to replace the graphic designer. It's going to allow the graphic designer to be able to create many iterations, be more creative. Like, if they don't have the technical skills to use certain pieces of software, it can help them ease that barrier to entry and give them more assets to work with. So, I think of AI in the workplace as how can we augment human productivity by giving each and every person a superpower?
VICTORIA: And you started this eight years ago now. So, you were really, like, ahead of the curve in terms of all these AI companies coming out. I'm wondering, what challenges did you have early on, and how did you overcome them?
KRISH: When we started, this was not obvious, like, that we should be doing this. It sounded obvious to us. We felt like every person in the workplace deserved an AI assistant that takes notes, not just the C-suite who, has a secretary or a business admin. And it felt like it's so obvious. It should exist. We should build it. And we need to create the experience like an assistant that follows you around.
But when we started, there were so many uncertainties. Can this technology work? Can this technology scale? Is the transcription going to be accurate? Can you actually even summarize things? And does that stuff make sense? It's a new behavior. Are people willing to entertain AI assistants and meeting assistants? So, every step of the way, there's a technology risk, a go-to-market risk. You are doing a sales risk. Like there are so many like pieces to the puzzle that you have to figure out. And you have to peel each layer of the onion and get to the core. So, I think it's been quite a journey.
We've been lucky in a few ways, right? Because I do believe that luck is sometimes about being at the right place at the right time. But those that always keep showing up are going to be able to get lucky from time to time, right? If you take a thousand shots, at least one of them will make it. That was my philosophy. We tried. We built seven or eight different products that all somehow worked or utterly flopped. And eventually, we got closer and closer and closer to the truth of what customers needed. And that led us to build the version of Fireflies that exists today.
So, it's definitely not easy, but there were three core phases to Fireflies or three core movements that allowed Fireflies to exist. One is speech recognition and transcription fundamentally got better. It got more accurate and more affordable. Before, it was ridiculously expensive. It would take a dollar per minute of transcription, and you needed humans to do it. But these AI engines, speech engines, got better.
The second thing is when we launched Fireflies, the pandemic happened a few weeks later. Everyone went remote. Video conferencing became more mainstream, and people were actually having Zoom fatigue and way too many meetings. And they needed a way to organize all those meetings they're having, jumping from one meeting to the next. And Fireflies got pulled forward, and a lot of people wanted to have it in meetings and help them around. And that helped us grow exponentially, virally. To this day, Fireflies has taken notes for over 16 million people across 300,000 organizations.
And since the launch in January 2020 to where we are, the first two to three years were trial and error, right? From 2016 to 2020. We built our product in 2018, 2019, launched in 2020. The pandemic accelerated the adoption. And then, you have this new LLM wave that comes out at the end of 2021, which allowed us to make the product fundamentally more valuable. And everything got better from the notes, to the summaries, to the search. Everything got better. And we crossed the chasm from where people thought, "Huh, this is a cool idea, but I don't think it's going to work," to "Holy crap, this is one of the best use cases for generative AI and LLMs."
And yeah, like, it was luck in terms of being there when this movement was happening. I think a lot of AI companies can say that. But it also took a little bit of fortitude to be able to be doing this several years before the stuff came out, right? Once a gold rush occurs, everyone's going to want to go in and then build something. But if you were already there, and you were searching and searching, and you were very close to something, and then you discover the gold rush, you're going to have a head start, and that's what happened with us.
VICTORIA: Yeah, you said 7 to 8 product iterations, and I was like, uh, you really had to go through an emotional roller coaster, I'm sure early days. But you were lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time and have a good picture of what the problem space was. It's really incredible to hear that.
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VICTORIA: Why don't I move forward a little bit into where you are now, where you have GDPR and SOC 2 compliance, and you're, you know, really doing well. Like, what were the challenges in getting that product to enterprise level?
KRISH: We let the customers pull us in the direction that needed for us to go. A lot of times, we try to see, okay, what is every friction point along the way? What would it take for larger organizations to adopt it? There is incredible product value. People have been saying it. But I need these sorts of features and capabilities in order to deploy it inside my organization. And we are handling meetings, which is sensitive. And so, we have to be able to give them more access controls, give them more admin features.
You know, we have a policy at Fireflies where we say, "We do not train on your data by default." So, most AI companies they're using their customer data to train models. We do not do that. So, we made that explicitly clear. CIOs love hearing that because when they look at us and other potential competitors, those competitors are bragging outside, saying, "Hey, we built this amazing model training on all of this data." And we say, "We don't do that." So, unless you want us to build something custom for you, we will not train on your data by default.
The other thing we said is, "Look, you own your data. If you want to delete it anytime, you can. You can request to have the data deleted. If you were a participant on a meeting and you don't feel comfortable with the data, you can request the host to delete it, or you can come to us, and we'll delete that data for you." Like, you have rights to that. And we put everything in a very customer-centric worldview, and that usually aligns with the big enterprises. That aligns well with a lot of the folks that want to use your service.
Because when you're using a new technology, the first question people are going to have is, "Does it work?" The second question they're going to have is, "Is it safe?" And with AI, a lot of people think about the safety of using the tech. And when you're building for a B2B enterprise, we had to make sure we put in the hard work to tailor our product to the needs of those customers.
VICTORIA: That's really interesting. And maybe you could say more about why would a company want to train a model on their own data and create an LLM like that?
KRISH: Are you talking about customers wanting us to train something for them?
VICTORIA: Yes. I've heard this idea from a few different people, actually, where they want to be able to build an LLM and build a model based on a company's own knowledge and their own information. So, maybe you could say more about that.
KRISH: I think it's really around fine-tuning and personalizing the AI. Now you can train on models. You can do fine-tuning. You can do other parameters. But it's really giving everyone their own personal experience with AI. We can do this today even without training just by understanding your preferences, and we want to continue to build towards that.
So, yeah, we believe that every person inside an organization should have their own personal AI note-taker, and no two meeting notes will be the same because each set of notes is unique to you, your meetings, what your team wants. And so, that, to us, is like a vision we try to build towards. AI can bring about insane level of personalization, and that's one of the reasons why people would want to train their own models based on their like, knowledge graph, and information.
VICTORIA: How do you think about the cost of building and running these AI tools from an infrastructure cost perspective? How does that translate to your cost for your customers, that kind of thing?
KRISH: AI is expensive. The unit economics...I think a lot of people are taking for granted that it is insanely expensive to run these models to use a cloud provider of these AI models. Some people are spinning up their own models. It is insanely expensive. But the good news is the cost is going down at an accelerated pace, and it's just up to whether the pace of the cost decrease will outweigh the amount of spending some of these startups are doing. And that's why some of these companies are raising tons of money as well because they don't really have a monetization strategy. They have no revenue. They're making lofty goals that "This AI is going to do this. It's going to do this. It's going to replace this function in your org."
But who's going to pay for it? How are you going to make people pay for it? Is it going to be subscription-based? Is it going to be utility-based? How much upfront cost is going to be there to train these models? And what if you do all that work, and then you deploy an LLM; you're an infrastructure provider, and no one cares? What if you're an application layer, and you're giving all of this stuff away for free and then eventually realize you can't get people to pay for it?
So, there are so many open questions for these companies where the technology is changing quickly. The cost is changing quickly, and consumer preferences are also changing quickly. We'll have to see. Only time will tell because there's a hundred companies out there, all raising a hundred million dollars. We know that all of them are not going to make it, a few are. So, it'll be interesting to see what happens once the dust settles. But I think people should take that very seriously because you can't always expect to be bailed out by investors if you don't know how to utilize AI and how to build for cost.
And I think a lot of investors tell startups to not worry about that. They say, "Don't worry about the cost. You know, as long as someone's there to pump you money, you just keep building, like, the best product out there." That works for some companies. I just don't believe it should be the only strategy that someone should take.
VICTORIA: What if you build it and no one cares? It'd be so heartbreaking [laughs], but it happens, yeah.
KRISH: That's 95% of startups that die is because no one cares.
VICTORIA: Right. Yeah. And I'm curious, like, what other use cases do you see as being the most relevant for AI? Like, what problems does it really solve very well? I mean, note-taking, obviously, one of them.
KRISH: I'm really excited about all of these AI tools that can write code for you. And maybe they can't replace a software engineer, but could you make a developer 10x more productive? And could today AI start off as a copilot for writing code for you to eventually building you full-fledged apps, right? And imagine what that would do in terms of reducing the barrier for so many people to be able to create their own personal apps and tools. Easier said than done.
But I think what's really working really well, whether it's with GitHub or some of these other AI tools, is, can it actually write code for you? And I think that's a wonderful use case. It'll still need a lot more fleshing out, but I am bullish on that use case for sure.
VICTORIA: Yeah. I'm hopeful that companies will figure out how to use AI to level up engineers because right now, we have the problem of the flattening of the middle where you have really senior people who are very in high demand. And then, you have a lot of people with very little experience who really want a career in technology. So, I see that as an opportunity, but also a risk that some people will create things with AI code and sell it. And it'll just be a hot mess [laughs]. But, you know, that's kind of the risk it is even if you're paying real developers at the same time, so...
KRISH: Yeah. I think AI will take a C player and make them a B player, maybe a B player into a B plus player. And then, it can take an A player and make them, like, A plus. So, I think it just levels the playing field a little bit, eventually to a point where everyone in the org is going to get a little bit more productive.
And I also think that small teams are going to be able to do incredible things. You, as a small team will be able to compete at a larger scale with some of the bigger companies. You know, Sam Altman said maybe there's a chance that a 10-person company is going to build a billion-dollar market cap organization that goes public. So, all of those are possibilities, too.
I love the idea of solopreneurs and people that run their own, like, small businesses, you know, three to four people, super lean. Obviously, I'm in a venture-backed world, so I can't necessarily run that, but I am very excited by that potential. And I like those types of people that are entrepreneurial and don't need a lot of CapEx in order to get started. AI will allow a lot more solopreneurs to thrive. If social media created a market for people to have, like, a full-time job as influencers, I think AI can create a market for people to have full-time jobs as creators of products, goods, and services that can be managed with just, like, a few people.
VICTORIA: That is really interesting. I'm curious if you want to...let's say you're meeting a founder or an entrepreneur, and they're AI-curious, but they don't really know where to get started or how to step their toe into the water. What advice would you give them?
KRISH: I think the best place to start is by building and building something for yourself that you yourself would use. Try all these different AI products that are out there. Look at what's trending in the news in terms of which...every week, some new model is being deployed, some new changes are being rolled out. Google is rolling something out. Facebook is rolling out something. OpenAI is rolling out something. So, try to keep pace. It's going to be tough.
And then, go play around and tinker with these tools. Like, you should be a tinkerer first. You should like to build things. You don't have to be an engineer to get started, but you need to be able to go and get your hands dirty, roll up your sleeves, and play around with these tools. The belief and conviction comes with you yourself gaining experience through understanding these tools. You know, you can't tell someone, you know, how to make a music video or make a movie without ever having used a camera before, right? So, it's the same way. You've got to learn how to use the tools first.
VICTORIA: And are there any yellow or red flags you would tell people to watch out for if they're thinking about AI or thinking about using a new AI product?
KRISH: I think for those founders that want to build large venture-scale businesses, and they're trying to bite off way more than they can chew, you should consider focusing. These are the sort of folks that maybe are not making a sequence of bets. They're trying to throw a hundred darts and see what sticks. And I usually think that's a strategy that will fail.
You need to understand why you're building, what you're building, who you're building for. Don't just build it because the technology is cool. You know, not to pick on any products out there, but there's a lot of hardware devices coming out recently that have AI backed into them, right? And you wonder, why the heck is this a hardware device? Couldn't this be just an app on my phone? Like, why do I need to go spend $200, or $600, or $1000 buying this device that has a lot of limitations?
The reason you built it because you thought the technology was cool. But by the time it got to production, it has a lot of faults. And you're trying to get people to change their behavior and take money and pay for this? That's tough. And I think VCs are falling for that as well, like, in funding tons of this money into these sorts of companies. Some can argue that it will get better with time and iterations.
But I personally stay away from hardware. I don't want to touch anything related to hardware right now because we don't even know what the new form factor is going to be. But the hardware people should ask themselves, "Should this be a standalone device, or could it just be something on my iPhone as an app?" That is something that's really, really interesting.
The space that I'm most excited about outside of AI for the workplace is robotics. And I've been seeing a lot of really cool products where they're trying to build these AI humanoid-like robots that can do a series of tasks. They're not like the machines in, like, an industry or a factory. But they can make you coffee. They can clean the dishes. They can cook you some food. I think the market for that is massive. Like, if that stuff works, people are going to be able to pay a lot of money for it. Like, the amount you'd pay for a car, you would pay for a utility-based robot inside your house and, like, with nice financing options and stuff. So, whoever cracks that is going to be really, really successful.
There's people companies that have raised a lot of money solving that. While I'm generally not bullish about hardware little devices, I am very bullish about, like, these general-purpose robots that I think the potential is immense. Like imagine every household having one or two of those; what that means for domestic productivity, like, someone's folding the laundry, someone is cleaning up the house, taking out the trash. These are jobs to be done, yeah.
VICTORIA: Well, then what would my husband do [laughter]? I'm just kidding. I don't want to replace him. No, I think it's interesting especially just, like, thinking about elder care, and having someone in the home, and watching, and cleaning up, and all of those tasks and being able to live independently. I could see that having a huge potential. So, also, obviously, I think robots are cool. It's the title of the podcast. So, I'm very pro-robot [laughs] in most cases, not all cases. Yeah. Well, that's super interesting. Let's see. Do you have anything else that you would like to promote?
KRISH: You know, besides embracing AI and using, you know, these tools and services, I would really be excited to hear about people's ideas on, like, how they're using AI in the workplace. Everyone has so many creative ways to go about it. So, each week, we discover new ways people are using Fireflies, right? Some people use it for taking notes. Some people use it to be able to take customer quotes from calls. So, they can literally ask our AI, "Hey, go through these, like, past two customer calls and pull out all of the nice things they said about us, and then turn that into a soundbite that I can share with my marketing team so we can run a marketing campaign on that" So, there's just so many interesting use cases.
I do want to say that voice is going to be a great form factor for AI. We work in the voice space. Like, I love talking to my AI during the meeting. So, I think that's going to be something that I would say is if you are an end user in the workplace, think about how you would use voice to get work done and turn your words into AI. And we're trying to solve that at Fireflies. And if you are interested in that space, we would love to talk to you. And if you have some interesting use cases that you want to see for Fireflies, please send them our way.
VICTORIA: I love that. And it's interesting when you bring up voice. One thing I was surprised about with my parents, actually, obviously, a generation older, I got them an Alexa Dot that I got from a conference. I didn't think they would ever use it, but they actually use it all the time. They're, like, asking for recipes, setting timers, and doing things like that. And, yeah, if you have, like, an AI voice, like, "Send an email to this person" or, like, "Open this task and do it." Maybe I would actually get some more tasks done [laughs]. I could just do it over voice. Sometimes like, the keyboard and the screen is part of the delay. That's really interesting. Thank you so much for being on the podcast.
Do you have any questions for me before we sign off?
KRISH: I'm curious to hear your thoughts on what are the biggest risks with AI you foresee for people, and what makes you more skeptical about AI?
VICTORIA: Yeah, you touched on a little bit earlier when you said about the cost of AI and the cost-benefit analysis; I don't think is always there for every single use case, right? There are some use cases where it is so clear there is a benefit for that. Note-taking is one of them. There's a million professions, I think, that would benefit from having AI note-taking apps.
I think the risks which we've already seen that impact people, you mentioned the biases, and things like people getting denied health care, getting longer prison term sentences. You know, the way that they might blindly incorporate these algorithms into decisions that really reinforce biases because of this historical data that it's based on.
I think whenever someone asks me about the risks of AI and, like, people losing jobs, or, you know, rogue AI taking over the world, I always bring it back to that some AI is already hurting people, and it should be stopped, and people should be educated on it. Like, the big scary AI conversation is almost a distraction to what's really going on, and we need to all be smarter about it.
At the same time, I love using AI. I think it really can, like you said, get your productivity up 100%. In some cases, like, you can just do so much more so much faster. And I see that potential. And I think that there's always that balance, right? Like, you have to be able to be aware and embrace both if you're going to stay current. But there are some people who still send faxes and still do everything by mail. But, you know, it's like technology never really dies. There's just more of it in different ways, right?
KRISH: Absolutely [laughs]. That's awesome. Well, thank you. This was great.
VICTORIA: Wonderful. Yeah, I really enjoyed our conversation.
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Host Victoria Guido welcomes Wendell Adams, CEO of PrimeLab.io, as he talks about his lifelong passion for technology and entrepreneurship. Wendell shares his experiences, from hacking electronics as a child to studying various fields in college and eventually starting his own business. He emphasizes the importance of understanding market needs and leveraging language to make technology accessible. Wendell's drive to improve encryption and data security led to the formation of PrimeLab; a company focused on making encryption functional and accessible without compromising performance.
Wendell discusses PrimeLab's strategic direction and market fit. He outlines the challenges and opportunities in the entertainment industry, emphasizing the need for innovative solutions that respect user control and privacy. Wendell also shares insights into how PrimeLab's technology can democratize data access and enhance business processes. The episode concludes with a reflection on the future of AI and encryption technologies and Wendell's advice for aspiring entrepreneurs to think critically and creatively about their ventures.
PrimeLab.io (https://primelab.io/)
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Transcript:
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VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with us today is Wendell Adams, CEO at PrimeLab io. Wendell, thank you for joining us.
WENDELL: Thanks for having me. So, question, actually, where'd you guys come up with the name?
VICTORIA: You know, I have asked this before, and I think I remember the answer. I might have to go back to the 500th episode to get it, but I think it was just robots was already kind of a theme at thoughtbot. I mean, thoughtbot, obviously, has robot in the name. Joe might have the best answer. And we have our special co-host, Joe Ferris. Who better to answer?
JOE: [chuckles] Yes, I'm not sure who better to answer, probably Chad. I don't remember the answer either, but happy to be here to speculate with the two of you. It comes from the blog. We named the blog Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots and then used it for our podcast. But I don't remember where the blog name came from.
WENDELL: It kind of reminds me of the Robot Wars thing, like, where they would have competitors driving around the robots and then smashing into each other, trying to flip them over and disable them.
JOE: That was excellent. I also watched that.
WENDELL: [laughs]
VICTORIA: Yeah, it's a pretty great name. I really enjoy being a host. And, you know, I go out to local San Diego events and meet people and introduce myself as a co-host of Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots. It's usually pretty funny [laughter], which is where I met you, Wendell; we met at a San Diego CTO Lunches, which was super fun.
WENDELL: Yeah, I always enjoy any type of tech conversation or anything else. I thought that was a lot of fun to sit down and just talk with people and talk about what they're working on.
VICTORIA: I love that, yeah. And before we dive into the tech and get to hear more about PrimeLab, I just want to start a little more socially question. What did you do last weekend, Wendell?
WENDELL: It was my father-in-law's birthday party at Legoland. We took my daughters my mother-in-law, and we all went to Legoland. It was a lot of fun. Although, honestly, I prefer the San Diego Zoo over Legoland, so...
VICTORIA: Can you please describe what Legoland is to people who may not know?
WENDELL: Okay. Legoland is based in Carlsbad, and it's really ideal for, like, four to nine-year-olds. And they have, like, miniatures of all the different cities. Actually, the SF miniature that they have is crazy detailed with Chinatown and everything else. They did an amazing job there. They actually...I think they just redid the San Diego part of it. But the miniatures are really cool, seeing all this stuff.
They have different rides performers, but it's definitely, like, one of those things that it's more for kids to go and kind of experience. If you're an adult, you're going to love a lot of the processes that go into place, like how they built things, but mostly, yeah, it's very much kid rides and stuff like that.
VICTORIA: I imagined it to be, like, life-size Lego buildings, but maybe I'm...that's very interesting all those other things you could do there.
WENDELL: Well, like, they have the One World Trade Center, and I think it's, like, 25 feet tall. It is, like, the replica of it. It's kind of interesting, too, because not all the Legos that they build, they're huge, are solid Legos. So, it's like, they'll do where it's like, on the outside, they'll do a base, and then they'll build it. There's a replica of a Lamborghini. That one's life-size. But it's heavy. It's, like, 2,000 pounds, something like that.
VICTORIA: Is that as much as a regular Lamborghini weighs, too, 2,000 pounds? It can't be that far up.
WENDELL: I don't know. No, I don't think it...no, it couldn't be.
VICTORIA: I have no idea how much cars [laughs] weigh. What about you, Joe? Did you do anything fun this weekend?
JOE: Not a lot. It was supposed to be my son's first soccer game ever, but it rained here in Boston, so they postponed it. Sunday he went to my parents' house for a grandma day, and so I did nothing. I ate cookies.
WENDELL: [laughs]
VICTORIA: Wait, what kind of cookies were they, though?
JOE: They were chocolate chip cookies.
VICTORIA: That's so good.
JOE: They were good. They were brown butter chocolate chip cookies, I should say.
VICTORIA: Were they homemade, or did you get them somewhere?
JOE: They were. We made them in this home.
VICTORIA: Oh, that's the best. Yeah, love that. I got some fancy cookies that someone else made, and they were also [laughs] very good. And then, yeah, I've just been having cookies pretty much every day. So, that's been my time.
WENDELL: My mother-in-law recently made me peanut butter cookies, and those are my favorite kind of homemade cookies.
VICTORIA: Okay. Noted. You'll get a post-podcast gift of peanut butter cookies [laughter]. I love that. It's so great to hear a little bit more about each of you as, like, in a personal way before we dive into AI. And tell me a little bit more about your background and what led you to PrimeLab.
WENDELL: I've always kind of, like, been a hacker, so to speak, just from a technical standpoint. My one grandfather was an engineer. He worked for GM designing, like, assembly arms and stuff like that. And then my other grandfather was a master electrician. So, I've always been the person that, like, just worked on things, got stuff together.
You know, there's a lot of stories. Like, there's the story about when I broke my grandmother's workbench, rocking bench out front, and it was all aluminum. I remember telling my grandfather, and he's like, "Oh, what are you going to do?" And I was like, "Buy a new one?" He's like, "You got money?" I said, "No." And he said, "Well, you better figure how to make it then." So, ironically, it's half aluminum, half wood. We took wood, sanded it down, and stuff.
So, it's just like I've always been an entrepreneur. I've always been interested in this kind of stuff. I used to hack VCRs, and PlayStations, and all kinds of stuff. I always liked parts and components and rewiring things. And as I got older, I also really liked math and all those things. And I wanted to understand more about how the world works, so to speak, like why it works the way it does, not just from a technology standpoint. But why do people think the way that they do? Why do things behave the certain way they do?
So, initially, I started going to college. I thought I might be a math professor, and then decided to get degrees in business, economics, finance, marketing, consumer product goods, and comparative religions. So, while I was in college, I started working on, like, hacking, different video games, writing JavaScript, writing Java, all kinds of stuff. And then, eventually, even writing mobile applications early on, and then just analyzing because I always liked to build phones, too. I would take apart phones. And I really was curious about, like, how to make things faster, more efficient, and better. So, now to bring it down, like, how to make things accessible, where it benefits some of the smallest people and make it where it's a greater opportunity for someone to come out ahead of something.
Like, one thing that I learned from my marketing degree is language matters. So, it's like, all the marketing it's not anything special. It's just they intentionally create language barriers that cause people not to feel as accessible with it. And then, like, you hire a consultant or something to just basically teach you about those language barriers. And I think every industry has, like, SAT, or LTM, or something like these abbreviations that mean a lot of different things. And it causes bottlenecks if you don't speak the language. So, understanding the language but also learning about how was very helpful from a standpoint on the marketing side. And I always try to figure out how do I make this accessible to people who don't understand that language?
VICTORIA: And what was the turning point where you decided to start PrimeLab, and what made you realize there was a company there?
WENDELL: It was a project I've been working on since at least 2011, honestly. And just as a heads up, PrimeLab as a whole works with encrypted data for AI models and to speed that up and everything else. So, early on, I was very obsessed with how advertising works through, like, stealing user data, which stealing is different, here or there, the sense of privacy, the sense of, like, how things could run, and the sense of messaging.
And initially, a lot of it was using encryption as an overlay in, like, the pixel application space, which is always a way to hack or get into it. And it slows everything down. So, I had always been working on trying to figure out how do you speed up and embed security so it's actually functional? And it took a while to figure out, like, give encryption functionality, like, make the encryption something that you could actually execute on.
And, actually, one of the things that really helped is the blockchain space there's a lot of, like, hash trees and everything else, like, where people are innovating in that. That's really helped innovate encryption as a whole from understanding, like, Merkle trees, hash graphs, and everything else to make it more functional and faster. Because people are trying to speed up distributed networks and stuff, but the actual technology that they built, like Hedera is...What Hedera has done with Hashgraphs and everything else—really amazing. I'm glad that they open-source stuff like that.
But it's also really interesting just to see how things push forward. So, like, when I first started, like, RAM was, like, 256 in a phone. So now, you know, you can get multiple gigabytes, which makes it a lot more capable to do encryption, decryption, and work more in the functional space of things. The bigger problem that you have on the data part is how an application communicates because there's so many levels of abstraction. Like, you have the Swift language that communicates into something else that then communicates into something else.
Like, right now, we're talking on a system that's recording us over the internet through a browser, all those different things. And it's an approximation of what the data is and what we sound like. It's not an absolute. So, I was really interested in when you have absolutes, and you can verify those absolutes, what can you do with that?
A few years ago, I felt like we got to a point where we could actually execute those things and actually deliver on that. So, therefore, I decided to start PrimeLab with my co-founder, who I really liked and enjoyed. And we've had a lot of really great advisors, where people have helped us continuously. Over, you know, the decade-plus of working on this, I've gotten a lot of input from some of the smartest people I know, from people who have designed full server racks for AWS to literally a good friend of mine that built cloud storage. His name's on the patent for it. So, that kind of stuff has really helped me understand and build this where it can communicate the lowest possible level.
VICTORIA: Yeah, and to just recap and reflect that back a little bit, it sounds like you were always interested in how to make encryption faster and lighter weight, and so you could build it in and build in security without impacting the performance of the applications. And then meeting your co-founder and the advancement of technology, this time a couple of years ago, led you to think, okay, let's really go forward with this.
WENDELL: Kind of rephrasing, I was always interested in control. So, like, one of the things that really interested me...so, I started a video game store buying and selling, like, video games and trading cards and stuff when I was roughly ten and a half or so, and then sold it roughly when I was 17, which is how I paid for quite a bit of college and likewise. But the things that really interested me about that is it went out of business three to four months afterwards because the person who basically bought the rest of it bought too much of Madden. And Madden, at this time, the margins were, like, a buck, as you go all the way through, and the price drops immensely.
So, I wanted to really understand why that happened. What you kind of get to is, like, they didn't have control over it, just, like, the bulk orders methodology, where they would buy the whole entire supply. And what I've seen over the years, be it Apple, Google, or anything else, is, like, that was...in that example, that's a game publisher, EA, flexing control, right?
But more and more companies are flexing control on a platform like now with Facebook or advertising. If you think about what Google used to do, Google used to provide a lot more insights when you had your own website. You used to know your own keywords. You used to know a lot of things about your users who come through. More and more, Facebook and Google try to stop that. And they're really the ones determining your own user personas for you. So, you become dependent upon them.
So, I wanted to say, okay, from a business standpoint, how do you implement control and privacy where it's permissioned? And encryption was one of the answers that I came to. But then it was, how do you make encryption functional then to actually execute on control? Because unless the system is secure, faster, cheaper, better, it's never going to get adopted.
VICTORIA: That makes sense. Thank you for sharing that. And you mentioned your founder. I'm curious, how does your founder kind of complete what you needed to be able to get the business up and running and off the ground?
WENDELL: He has a robotics degree, so he had launched several products that had failed. And he wanted to learn marketing after they had failed. So, we have a similar like mindset about, like, control and functionality for how something may or may not work, and that allowed us to communicate well. So, like, I have a lot of friends and stuff. But the thing that allows me and my co-founder to work really well is that we come from things in different angles, but we have the same language that we speak.
So, like, that's what I was talking about before, like, LTMs or otherwise, like, language really matters from how you can move something forward when you're talking in different industries. And just with him, there's a lot of stuff that you don't have to say. You can skip a lot of filler and then go straight to what something might be or a solution or something. Or if we have to jump to a tech abbreviation, to a market abbreviation, to a financial abbreviation, he's one that can follow along with me really quickly and then teach me a lot of things about operational execution because he's great at operations. I am not great at operations.
VICTORIA: That's really interesting. And I think you're making a good point about, like, a shared language. And it reminds me of any product that you're building; if you want to sell it to a company and you want them to adopt it, you have to consider their language, their belief system, how to influence change within the organization. And I wonder if you could talk a little bit more about that with your experience at PrimeLab.
WENDELL: I'll give you an example of a market that we decided to go after. So, instead of just working at, like, healthcare markets where you have, like, GDPR...for people who don't know GDPR or HIPAA, HIPAA is for the United States. GDPR is the EU privacy requirements, right? For the right to be forgotten and everything else. So, these are vernaculars that you need to know. But the requirements of each one is very different, and these are markets that we've learned being in tech and likewise. But we wanted to change it up.
So, I wanted to go after the entertainment market as a whole, namely because after meeting with some select people, including a stunt man, this is going back a few years ago, I started to realize that the entertainment market was getting kind of screwed over quite a bit from a tech standpoint. Basically, tech goes through this thing where...someone wrote a great article about this. It's called Enshittification. But, basically, where they go they try to take over a whole entire market, where first they're providing great value to your users. And then, gradually, you enshittify your product to provide greater value to your investors. And then, gradually, you suck all of the value out of the room for both.
Right now, if you look at Sora, what OpenAI is trying to do in entertainment, [inaudible 16:08], you kind of can see that happening. They're going, "Hey, here's a great value for it." And they're really pushing that stuff off. But the thing about the entertainment market that I think is really interesting is it's basically thousands and thousands of small businesses that are constantly going, it's so chaotic. It's not like tech and startups. There's a lot of overlay of, like, you know, people are looking for that top quartile film that's going to make the money back, and then long-term royalties that they can earn off of it, right? Whereas in tech, they're looking for those huge markups as well.
So, I was really fascinated by it, but it was something that, like, we had to learn. Like it was something that I didn't know otherwise. So, it was literally...how we learned it was we took our tech stuff, and we would walk SAG-AFTRA strike lines. We would walk strike lines. We would go to entertainment events, and we would demo what we were trying to do, and we would show them. And then, oftentimes, we got really negative feedback right off the bat. And we're like, "No, no, no, so, you know, this is for you. Like, you could control. Like, this is going to help you."
And then, after doing that enough times, talking to the SAG-AFTRA lawyers, and everything else from there, and all of the creatives, the creatives were coming to us and giving us ideas how to explain it because there's, like, three different formats. You have tech, business, creatives in the entertainment industry. And it's like, we could talk to the tech people. We could talk to the business people. But you really need the creatives. And, like, the wording of each one, like, each group of those is vastly different.
So, having the creatives be able to explain something in 90 seconds that used to take me a couple of hours to dive into became really valuable. And also, in tech, like, you have this thing where it's feature creep, where you're like, oh, I'll add this, this, and this. Just to hear very coldly and bluntly, like, "If it does X, I'm interested. If it does Y, I'm not interested." That was very interesting or refreshing of, like, "Yes, you're going to solve these problems. But I need sign-off for everything in there."
And it's kind of weird in the entertainment part, too. Like, you want to solve a problem without being a competitor to another vendor because you need so many different sign-offs. And if you're a competitor to another vendor, to a certain point, maybe that's going to cause a hiccup with sign-offs because there's 18 different cooks in the kitchen, so to speak, just so many different people that need to say, "Yes," all the way through with it.
VICTORIA: Thank you. Yeah, that's really interesting. I'm curious, Joe, if you have an answer for that question as well, like, any experiences about navigating change and putting new products in place at different clients, different industries?
JOE: I don't think I've had the same kind of resistance. Like, I haven't been on the front lines the way you described, like, literally in the, you know, going and talking to people on strike. I think I have more indirect experience talking to the people who are doing that.
And certainly, like, I think there's generally a resistance to bringing in new technology without eliminating the old way of doing things if that makes sense. Like, people want the old ways of backup. Like they want to be able to go back to paper, which I empathize with. But that's frequently been a challenge for the people I've worked with is that they don't fully embrace the new process, which significantly reduces the value they would get from using it. I don't know if that's something you've encountered with PrimeLab.
WENDELL: So, we were building another company of mine many, many, many years ago. I was building a website for this lumber company, and I remember showing up, and the owner was there. But it was his son that had commissioned it, and the owner didn't know about the website. And I was like, "Oh yeah, we'll get the website going." He goes, "Oh, this web thing it's a fad. It's never going to happen. You don't need websites. It's faxes." That's how everything would happen. But secretly, what was happening is they would get an order. They would print it off, and then they would fax it. So [laughs], I always thought that was crazy.
VICTORIA: I mean, one of my local bars still just writes the order on a ticket and sends it on a clothesline down to the grill. So [laughs], sometimes old is good. But I think that you know, I want to hear more about where you found or how you found a product-market fit for PrimeLab and where that AI really becomes useful and ethical in the industry you're focusing on
WENDELL: How I look at PMF (product-market fit)...and if you hear me just say PMF, that's what that means. So, how I look at PMF is I'm a little different in the fact that when I look at a product, or a technology, I don't just look at, like, so you have foundational tech. Like, okay, this is encryption. This is control, right? Now, where's the market that has the biggest problems with it? So, I like to go out and actually talk to those people. Because, like, when you're implementing tech, or you're implementing the product itself, it's different. So, you're like, you have the underlying infrastructure, but whether that's a button or a simple API that you need to build so it works different to hit that PMF...are you familiar with the term build a better mousetrap?
VICTORIA: I don't think so.
JOE: I'm familiar, but I'd still love to hear you describe it.
WENDELL: So, in business school, and likewise, they will tell you "If you build a better mousetrap, people will come, and they will buy your product." So, like, it's a common thing where they're like, "Build a better mousetrap. People will come. They'll be there." And the thing that you learn with consumer product goods and marketing, though, is they actually built a better mousetrap, and it failed.
And the reason why it failed is you had a mousetrap that was roughly a cent versus another mousetrap that was three cents. And I think this is in the '60s or so. The other mousetrap was reusable, so it executed a lot better, and everything else is more humane. But what they didn't understand is that it was wives most of the time that would have to actually handle this. And they didn't want the mouse alive, and they didn't want to reuse the trap. They wanted them to actually be disposed of right away.
So, by not understanding the market, even though they built a better mousetrap, they'd missed the point. Like, the main problem to solve wasn't killing the mouse or having it be reusable. The main problem to solve was, like, getting rid of the mouse. So like, if you have a solution for getting rid of the mouse, the next thing is your execution for it. Like, does it hit the actual market, which is the fit aspect?
Like, every product is a little bit different where you look at, like, how does this fit in? So, in this case, fit is very important for, like, disposing of the mouse, which is why you also have, like, you know, mouse poisons are popular, even though they're terrible because they die somewhere and, hopefully, you don't see them. And it's like sight unseen, right? Now, I'm glad, like, that's changing and stuff.
But it's understanding even if you have a solution to something, you need to understand what your market wants out of your solution, and it's not going to be an abstract. It's going to be an emotional, like, execution-based process. So, you kind of have to go, all right, this is my market. This is kind of my fit. But the actual product I'm building is going to change to make sure it works all the way through with this.
I was advising a startup many, many years ago, and they were building this CRM software on Android for South America. And I think they were building it for Android 6 or 7 at the time. But the market that they were targeting, they all ran Android 4.1. So, they spent a little over a million dollars building for the wrong version of Android that wouldn't even work on that version of the system. Like, it was one of those things where they were required to build it for that. But they didn't understand the actual market, and they didn't spend enough time researching it. So, it's like you get the Bay Area groupthink.
If they had actually spent the time to analyze that market and go, "Oh, they run, you know, an inexpensive phone. It's 4.1. It's low RAM," now you can design a product. If you want it to be a CRM, you're going to, like, chunk up the system more. Like, you're going to change all that instead of just wasting a million dollars building something that now you basically have to start over again from scratch.
VICTORIA: That seems like he got off cheap, too. People make way bigger mistakes that cost way more money [laughs] because they [inaudible 24:13]
WENDELL: Well, that wasn't me. That was an investor that --
VICTORIA: Oh no. I mean, yeah, not just them. Yeah.
WENDELL: He's like, "What would you do?" And I was like, "You should sell this company or sell your stake ASAP because that's a really bad sign."
JOE: I have found that the answer nobody ever wants when you're doing product validation or testing product fit is, "You should not build this product." The idea that the software just shouldn't be written is universally unpopular.
WENDELL: Yes [laughs]. That's, you know, that's part of the reason why it took me so long to do PrimeLab is because, like, it took a long enough for the software to actually need to be written, if that makes sense.
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VICTORIA: What does success look like now versus six months or even five years from now?
WENDELL: I take a different approach to this because I have so many friends that have sold their businesses. They raise and everything else. I look at success as instead of an exit or another large thing, like, literally, we turned down a billion-dollar term sheet offer. I didn't like the terms. I didn't like what it would do from the control standpoint of the technology. What I care about is go-to-market and, like, adoption and actually getting the tech out there in a way that has market penetration but, like, that adds value to every person's life.
VICTORIA: Yeah, maybe say more about that. Like how do you see AI and this technology you have with PrimeLab benefiting people and benefiting the industry that you're working within?
WENDELL: So, the current AI models are kind of weird. They're basically just filter systems because they communicate in pixel space and then go down to functional space. It's the GPU. GPUs are actually terrible to use for AI. This is why you have dedicated AI chips getting built. Hopefully, the RISC-V chipset does actually do something because that's a chipset that I think it's an open-source chipset, but you can actually especially build models on it.
So, I think that we're going to see a lot more in the RISC-V chipset where it's like, this is just for one particular image, or this is just for explosions, or this is just for touching up all these different points in the actual individual, like, microcontroller module data that ends up compiling to move forward with it.
But the AI models now it's like you took the internet, and you're trying to ask it a probability question, what I was talking about before, where it's not an absolute. So, it's like, if I want to do an OCR system or anything, I take an image. It's got to say, "This is..." letters; it's going to recognize that. So, there's, like, multiple models and algorithms that need to run on that whole entire process. You even have artificial data, but all of that information is an approximation. It's not an absolute. If you want absolute, you can get a lot of absolute data from the actual hardware devices themselves. You know, take a Sony camera. You could see the lighting. You could see the raw information, everything else there.
But because of how expensive it is, people compress it. Like, take YouTube where it's compressed, and now you're training off of it. You're trying to compress it more and then run an algorithm so that you don't have to actually process those large, raw files all the way through. That's just a bad infrastructure for compute. You're trying to reduce, but you're also trying to utilize what you own for rights, same thing, contextual, or anything else there. There's no value in a model. Once a model is out there, it's just weights moving it back and forth. The value is in the data and the applications. So, the actual data itself that's going in.
So, if you have just lava scenes, like, having all that data for lava, and I want to put it in a background, now I can do that, but more importantly, it's not about just adding it into the background. The thing that is often missed is contextually the output. So, like, say I want to do a financial report. Rather than having the data of all financial reports out there, what I want as the input is my financial data. And what I want as, like, a fine-tuning output is an example of the reports that were generated. And I don't want those reports as the input to inform the output because that's where you get a hallucination. Maybe it starts grabbing financial data from someone else.
And I also think we're in store for a lot more hacks because with not just poisoning data, which we do in the functional space, if someone tries to access it. But, I mean, literally, there's the story...I think the guy was in Hong Kong, where they faked his board all the way through with it. Because you have agents acting and executing on people's behalf, you're going to have systems where people go onto the hardware and start generating fake financial numbers. And now that's going to get reported. Or you pay an invoice that you weren't supposed to pay because someone manipulated your AI agent.
And a lot of the stuff that we're seeing now from Microsoft and everything else that's not really where the models will go. It's great to do it, but it's kind of like we're in the dial-up stage of AI. Like [chuckles], dial-up has its use cases and stuff, but it's nowhere near what the tech will look like in the future, and it's nowhere near how it will function.
And one of the big pushbacks that you see, like, from Google, from all these different places, like, they want your attention. But at the end of the day, Google's an ad company. Facebook's an ad company. It's not in their best interest to have hyper-localized data that you control for your models and likewise. They want it in the cloud. They want it used there, where they can control that data, and they can monetize and advertise for you. But at the same time, like AI models work the best, and AI applications work the best when the data set is limited, so it can't hallucinate, and when the outputs are actually controlled to what it should be from an informed standpoint. So, where we're at this is just in the beginning stages of stuff.
VICTORIA: That's really interesting. Thank you so much for sharing. I think if you could go back in time when you first started PrimeLab and give yourself some advice, what would you say?
WENDELL: You know, I lived through the Great Recession. The Great Recession informed me a lot more. The things that I didn't understand this time...like the Great Recession, was market contributors doing stuff that impacted everyone with their spend and their adoption, and how those things were. But the Fed raising interest rates, which is, you know, Silicon Valley Bank failed and stuff like that, that dynamic of those startups and, like, how much startups power everything, like, I would have advised myself to pay more attention to the Fed and those market dynamics going forward.
Because what changed is it's not just the Silicon Valley Bank failed it, you know, Rippling went down, for instance, which would pay therapists in Florida and all kinds of stuff. Like, it broke so many different things. It caused bottlenecks in business that we're still going through. Like, everyone's like, "Oh, we're getting back to normal." Really not. It's still, like, delayed all the way through it.
The AI aspect is really getting back to normal, where people are really pushing AI. But if you look at SaaS and other industries, it really, really slowed down. And the reason why that matters is, like, in my field, production and timelines matter. So, when you have that plus, you know, the entertainment strike and everything else, you have things where the actual production of things starts slowing down immensely. Whereas AI is one of the few things that you still have innovations because that never really slowed down, same thing with the models. But all the rest of the industries and stuff have really slowed down.
And understanding what that means from an operational execution standpoint...it's a good thing I have my co-founder [inaudible 32:24]. It matters quite a bit because it means your team sizes have to change, how you handle certain clients has to change. Because once those companies start downsizing or laying off people for whatever reason like, that's going to change how you're working with them, and their requirements are going to change as well.
VICTORIA: And what do you see on the horizon as a challenge or a big hurdle that you face as a company or as an industry?
WENDELL: You know, the entertainment market's really interesting from all the different sign-offs. The challenge is more execution of timeline. So, like, if you're doing something with, like, Nvidia and the healthcare thing, it could take years. If you're doing something in, like, the IoT space, you know, also years. If you do something in the entertainment space, it could take weeks to months, except the large studios. The larger studios, it could take a couple of years as well.
But going to market, I think, is a very big challenge, not just for us but the whole entire industry. I mean, there's a reason why Sam Altman came down to LA to meet with studios, to try and get stuff moving forward. And I think one of the things that he's forgetting is like, you think of Netflix. Netflix is streaming. In order for that to work, they needed Roku, and they needed Kevin Spacey because [chuckles]...it's crazy to say that, but House of Cards is kind of what made it, right? And Hollywood was mostly boxing them out quite a bit. Same thing with Blockbuster otherwise. They had to drop a hundred million dollars, a large enough bankable star at the time that would really push something forward. And they had to basically really push Roku out there so that they had PMF across the board.
What that means, though, is, like, Netflix is paying for content like crazy, right? So, this is kind of enshittification in a process. So, they're paying for content like crazy. So, now Hollywood's making money. They like it. At the studios, they don't love it when their stuff's going there because maybe it's less money, but now they start cutting the seasons short. They start cutting...it's a lot more algorithmic-driven. You have the ad systems that sort of come out. So, now, like, Netflix is not just doing ads where the customer experience is getting worse, but now, also, the business experience for those partners selling stuff is also getting worse, and all that value is getting driven to Netflix. Like, that's the tech system and Hollywood's learned that.
But, like, when you're looking at the next adoption, like, they're hesitant for that. Just like a lot of stuff with AI, they're hesitant because they're thinking about all the power and control that they gave up. But you have to show how they're going to make money. You can't just cut costs, right? If you can't show how they're going to make money, you're not going to get adopted. That's kind of what I like there because so much of tech is about saving costs and being more efficient. In the entertainment industry, it's not just those two things. It's how can I make more money? And it's going to, like, ooh, you can monetize your content through training samples and stuff like that.
So, our model goes exactly against what the large tech companies have where they want to take content, train on it, like the search engine does, suck the value off Sam Altman's Sora. Ours goes, all right, this is your content. Only you own this. You can take your own content, train it, and then perform this operation on it that is more efficient likewise. And if you choose to monetize it in any way, shape, or form, we can just take the functional space, not all the images and no one will ever see it, and take that functional space for training so that you can actually monetize from that as well.
VICTORIA: I love that. Super interesting. Thank you so much for sharing. And do you have any questions for me or for Joe?
WENDELL: I've noticed a lot of differences on, like, applications and how systems are built. So, I'm kind of curious about you guys' standpoint about applications, you know, the Apple Vision Pro. Facebook just said they'd start licensing out their AI system, or Meta, whatever. So, you have the comparisons to Android versus iOS that's happening, stuff like that. So, I'm really curious about, like, you guys' thoughts on the Vision Pro and that ecosystem.
JOE: Well, I can't speak for all of thoughtbot, but I can say that, to me, it was interesting to see that get released. And it's been interesting to see how aggressively Meta and Apple have been pursuing the various VR markets. Like it reminds me of when television companies and studios worked really hard to get 3D movies to be a thing.
WENDELL: [laughs].
JOE: Because I think they just ran out of things that people are asking for. Like, people were interested in getting better resolutions up to a point. Like, they wanted better packaging. But it got to a point where it was like, they didn't want to give anybody anything they were asking for. So, they were like, what if it's in 3D? And, like, for years, it seemed like Apple was really on top of seeing what people really wanted, and being able to present a very well-prepared version of that product before other companies were able to. And, personally, it's not what I saw with the Apple Vision Pro. Like, it wasn't the obvious missing space that was there when the iPhone or the iPad showed up.
WENDELL: Yeah, I always go back to, like, the "Why?" question. You know, previously when...even just before we had talked, I was talking about comparative religions, and why that's so valuable is because it really teaches you...again, I've had this conversation before, but the comparative religions, if you think about religion as a tech company, they're always trying to solve why. Like, why did the sun come up? Why did this happen, right? And you always have to do that. So, apply that to technology, Google or Apple, why does this product exist? And when you get to, like, it just existed to make money, I think that's really the 3D thing. Whereas, like, why did the iPhone exist? It existed to solve this problem of being portable on the go and getting information in the way that we communicated, too.
VICTORIA: Yeah. I think the Apple Vision Pro appeals to a very specific market segment and that that segment is not me [laughter]. I, actually, during COVID...after...it was, like...yeah, we're still in COVID. But during the pandemic, I moved from DC to California. And to connect with some old friends, I bought a VR headset and decided to go to virtual coffee with them. And it just makes me nauseous. And it actually affects...quite a lot of women get nauseous in VR. For some people, the look—the capability is really exciting. They have the extra money to spend on gadgets, and that's what they like. And it's very appealing, and the, like potential, is really interesting. I just find it for myself. Personally, I'm more drawn to tech that's not maybe cutting edge but solves problems for actual people.
And kind of why I'm interested in PrimeLab, what you were mentioning is just how artists can use this technology to protect their creative work. To give that power back to people and that control over their content, I think, is really interesting rather than...I'm not really sure what I would do with the Apple Vision Pro [laughs]. Like, the early ones, I mean, it's cool. It's fun. I definitely enjoy it. Like, I sometimes like to learn about it, but it's not my passionate genre of tech that I normally go for.
WENDELL: Going back to what you just said about, like, control, like, part of the thing is because of the hash IDs that we put into place, like, you don't need analytics. You don't need cookies or anything else, like the content holder. Basically, like, if you have a TV set or something and you want to stream content to it, you can actually see that information directly yourself. So, it takes the person generating it and the person viewing it. It forms...we call them function access keys. It forms a one-to-one relationship, basically, where you guys know if you want to know what you want to know, but then you choose to give access to the platform if you want to, which changes the dynamic of control quite a bit.
And it's interesting because when you look at platforms like the Apple Vision Pro, and you look at Apple's whole entire system as a whole, just trying to lock in people, I think it's interesting because something like what I just described, Apple can't really stop. It's how compute works. So, if people want to use it, there's nothing they could do to stop it from being used. So, I'm really interested in the product stuff and just more about, like, how...and I'm curious what you guys think on this, too.
Especially as you see phones and processors and everything else, I'm really interested in, like, how these things come about, like, how things are actually built and developed and the why for that, like, in the everyday use. So, like, the Apple Watch it started off as a fashion thing, which looked like a money grab, and then the why was, oh yeah, fitness. So, just curious if you guys have seen any other products out there that you're like, oh, this really resonates with me and the why.
JOE: Yeah, I'm not really a gadget person, but I think the idea of taking some of the capabilities that we've gotten with the internet and with phones and making them hands-free was interesting. And that, to me, was what I think started pushing the development of products like the Apple Watch or Google Glass. Like, I think that hands-free capability, the trade-off became rewarding in the fitness field, but I think it's more generically applicable. I think that technology it's too obtrusive in other scenarios and too bad at its job to do some of the things it could do. And people got creeped out by Google Glass. But it doesn't really seem like the Vision Pro fits in there. Something being successful hands-free means it becomes less obtrusive, whereas the Vision Pro is like you become a cyborg.
VICTORIA: Do you have anything else you would like to promote?
WENDELL: I wouldn't say necessarily promote as much as like people with ideas or aspirations, like, I think it's important that you think counter to what everyone else is doing. There's that line of, like, when everyone else is running in one direction, run the other. And it's like, if you have a business or startup idea, really think about your market. Like, think about why you're doing what you're doing, and don't be afraid to just go out there and talk to people. You will get value no matter who you talk to.
So, like, I'm a hugely tech-based person. My wife is a therapist, and I learn from her everyday things about emotional intelligence and all kinds of things that I would be an idiot otherwise. But also, learn, like, you can always learn something from someone. Like, take the time to listen to them. Take the time to actually, like, try and figure out what's one thing I can learn from someone, even if, you know, I learn stuff from my daughters even. Like, don't put things in boxes. Like, try to think outside of like, how can I ask a question to learn?
VICTORIA: I love that advice. That's great.
WENDELL: Have you guys used Suno before?
VICTORIA: That's music, right? Music AI.
WENDELL: All right, I got to show you guys this. We're going to create you a quick theme song. Like, this is what I mean by, like, it's an interesting solution for why.
VICTORIA: That does sound fun. I like the ones...like my friend's a doctor, and she uses AI to take her conversation she's having with patients and automatically fill out her notes. And it saves her, like, 20 hours of documentation every week. Like, I like that kind of app. I'm like, oh, that makes a lot of sense.
WENDELL: What's a style of music that you guys really like?
JOE: Swedish pop
VICTORIA: Like ABBA [laughs]? I'm down for an ABBA Giant Robots theme song. Sounds great.
WENDELL: I think you're going to like this.
[Music Playing]
VICTORIA: These are awesome. They're super fun. Thank you so much.
You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, you can email us at [email protected]. And you can find me on X @victori_ousg.
This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time.
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Hosts Will Larry and Victoria Guido interview Sarah Touzani, the founder of Waggle AI, an AI leadership skills coach. Sarah shares insights from her entrepreneurial journey, discussing how her past pottery hobby has influenced her focus and patience, which are crucial skills in her role as a founder. She explains how her transition from a traditional business school path to a senior role in a fast-growing startup, and eventually to founding Waggle AI, was driven by a desire to foster better managerial skills and workplace culture.
Sarah talks about the early challenges and pivots in developing Waggle AI, such as incorporating AI for automatic note-taking to reduce user friction. She describes how Waggle AI assists in meeting preparations, records notes, and provides feedback on leadership skills, helping managers improve their delegation and empathy skills. She also highlights the importance of blending productivity tools with leadership development to enhance team performance and individual well-being.
The discussion also touches on the ethical considerations and core values driving Waggle AI, to emphasize user privacy and minimizing additional workload for managers. Sarah concludes by outlining her vision for the product, focusing on deepening the AI's understanding of managers and adapting recommendations to individual team members' needs.
Waggle AI (https://www.usewaggle.ai/)
Follow Waggle AI on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/wearewaggle/), Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/waggle__ai/), TikTok (https://www.tiktok.com/@waggleai), or X (https://twitter.com/waggle_ai).
Follow Sarah Touzani on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarah-touzani/).
Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/).
Transcript:
WILL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry.
VICTORIA: And I'm your other host, Victoria Guido. And with us today is Sarah Touzani, Founder of Waggle AI, your AI leadership skills coach. Sarah, thank you for joining us.
SARAH: Of course. Thanks for having me.
VICTORIA: To open us up here, what is a past or current hobby that you enjoy?
SARAH: I need to be honest. I haven't done much outside of working since I started the company. But prior to that, I used to spend a lot of time in a pottery studio making pots, and bowls, and mugs, and gifting them to anyone I meet.
WILL: That's really impressive because I tried it for, like, I think a college class. And if you make one mistake, the whole thing gets ruined. I think I made, like, a little, very small bowl, and that was all I could get [laughs].
SARAH: Yeah. I'm not surprised. It takes a lot of practice and a lot of extreme focus in a way because, like you said, like, the single moment your hand moves slightly off, the whole thing is over.
WILL: What's the item that was the most complicated or you're the most proud of?
SARAH: I would say a big bowl that I made, which has a bit of an odd shape because, actually, it was going bad. And I kind of caught it back and made that mistake into something done on purpose in the design, and it worked quite well. But it's also not your average pot or average bowl you see everywhere.
VICTORIA: That's really cool. And I echo Will's sentiments of being impressed by people who can do pottery because I did take a class right before the pandemic. And then, the pandemic hit, and we weren't able to fire any of our pieces [laughs]. But I found that it took just a lot of patience, even to be able to figure out the first step. Like, putting the clay onto the spinning wheel and doing that correctly just takes a lot of practice. And so, I'm curious if you find any of those skills or values from doing pottery translate into being a founder.
SARAH: Yeah, actually, this is funny because I wrote a blog article about this a few years ago when I first started. I think there are a lot of learnings to take away from that and bring into work, weirdly. It's that sense of focus. When you're starting a company very early, there's a million things that you want to be doing and, actually, you can't. You need to do one thing and do it well. And the ability to zoom in and focus on one single thing is a massive game changer.
Also, my last job was as busy and insane as the current one, which is being a founder, because it was, like, a senior role in a super-fast-growing startup. And I was always on my phone, or always thinking about work, or always having something coming at me and trying to answer questions and do stuff on Slack. And with your hands dirty, you're actually forced not to do any work and go back to that focus and that mental clarity. And that was also, like, extremely valuable back then. So, saying this out loud makes me think that I probably should go back and do it.
VICTORIA: I recommend it. I did a hand pottery class with my little sister. I have a big sister, little sister mentorship relationship. And we made little ceramics, and it was super fun. Just, like, an hour a week.
SARAH: Super nice.
WILL: So, Sarah, you mentioned a little bit about your background. Tell us more about that. Where did you get started? How did you become a founder of your company? How did the idea come up? Just anything in those areas.
SARAH: Yeah. Sounds good. So, I have a bit of, like, a traditional business school type of profile. I was a good student. I didn't really know what I wanted to do. So, I went into a business school, graduated, went into banking and consulting, which are, I guess, those, like, sexy jobs that you want to get when you are still at school. And I had done them and felt a bit out of place because I wanted to get things to move way faster than they were moving in these, like, very corporate set-in-their-ways type of companies.
So, left that industry and moved to a very early-stage startup. I used to live in Paris back then, and I moved to London. At the same time, joined a very early-stage startup in FinTech. We were four when I joined. And we didn't have a product, didn't have any revenue. And I had to grow that company to about 200,000 customers, 50 million series A, and 80 people in the team, of which I managed about 50. All of this happened in 4 years.
And I was hired into that role because of my background and because of my experience in risk management, compliance, like, all of the very technical aspects of my career. But at the end of the day, I spent most of my time trying to build a culture that motivated people to do their best work that enabled people to perform. And that's not something you really get to learn either at school or, in most cases, at work either. You just need to figure it out.
So, I was trying to find a way where we could enable managers to learn these skills once they're in the job. Because when they mess up and when I messed up as a manager, it had a cost not only on the company but also on the wellbeing and mental health of the people that I was managing. And I couldn't really find a solution existing. So, I started working on one and spoke to one of my best friends about it, who is a multiple-time founder, and we just got to work. And fast forward a year and a half, here we are.
VICTORIA: I'm wondering if there was anything in the early phases that surprised you in the customer discovery process, maybe caused you to shift direction.
SARAH: Yeah, definitely. So, early days, we started with this problem, which is that most interactions between a team member and their manager happen in meetings. And that, overall, everyone is kind of frustrated with meetings, especially post-COVID, where we started doing a bunch of them online. It seemed to not work. And it seems that meeting management skills were a bit absent, and they should be part of the toolbox for a manager.
So, started by trying to help managers run better meetings. And we relied on them taking notes from those meetings, like, in writing preparing for those meetings and taking notes for them in writing. And quickly realized that a very small portion of people were actually doing that note-taking. It seems obvious saying it out loud now, but back then, we didn't really know that.
And so, we kind of had to switch gears and use way more AI than we intended, at least at that stage, to enable that automatic note-taking and gathering of data for us to be able to support the managers. Because if we don't know what they're working on and what's happening in their world, it's super hard for us to give them any feedback. But if they don't take notes and share them with us, then we can't really do anything. So, I had to shift gears and build an embedded note taker within the product to remove, like, a big portion of that friction that we saw with early users.
WILL: I love that and just your whole product. I'm a productivity nerd, so I just love it. And I was a manager for a couple of years, and it's not the easiest. So, I love what your product is doing. Can you give us an overview of exactly what your product does so the audience can know what we're talking about?
SARAH: Yeah, of course. So, the product is an AI coach or an AI co-pilot for managers. And the way it works is it connects to your calendar. It creates a space to collaborate with your team on each of the meetings you have. Prior to the meeting happening, we also give you access to one-click templates and ways to run those meetings. And then, when the meeting is happening, the Waggle Bot joins the call, takes notes for you, picks up on both action items that you mentioned during the conversation, who they were assigned to, who mentioned them, but also decisions that were made or about to be made that you need to either come back to and confirm or make sure that everyone is aware of.
And finally, and the most exciting part, to me, is that it gives you feedback on your leadership skills, a bit like if your coach was listening to your conversations with your team members. And it will say things like, "You mentioned a few tasks during this call, and you didn't delegate any of them to the team while you had the opportunity to. So, next time you have a call, think about what tasks you could actually delegate," or it will say, "Well done showing empathy when Will, in your team, mentioned that their daughter was sick and that they had to leave work early today."
So, it really works as a feedback loop to reinforce good behavior, but also give you tips and show you those unknowns that you didn't really think about and what impact they can have on your team and on your team's productivity. And finally, from that, we build a full picture of where you're good at, and where we can support you, and how those skills evolve over time through the feedback we give you.
VICTORIA: Yeah, as a manager myself, I'm thinking about all the things I do to try to make my meetings as efficient as possible by, you know, having automatic Slack updates that say, "As a reminder, go look at your tickets, update them before the call," like, rotating who's taking notes and facilitating the meeting, and thinking about how that could reduce the burden from the team and just help everyone save time and share that information more widely. Because sometimes I do have maybe a dozen meetings in a day, like, 12, 30-minute meetings [laughs]. And that's a lot of notes to take. So, I usually estimate every meeting takes another 30 minutes to an hour to wrap up and follow up afterwards.
SARAH: Yeah, I think that's a good assessment. And if you actually stick to spending those 30 minutes extra for each one of the meetings, I can tell you you're one of the best performers. Because what we've been seeing is that a lot of people, especially in startups or, like, fast-moving environments cannot afford to spend that time. So, we're trying to see how we can remove that friction and make those 30 minutes that you need to spend more like five minutes pre-meeting and potentially another five minutes after the meeting. And that's it. You're done.
VICTORIA: How many people did you talk to in the first 30 and 90 days of your startup?
SARAH: So, that's all we did in the first few months because we wanted to validate that this was not, like, an us problem. So, I spoke to about 75 managers over the first 2 to 3 months. So, that's in itself a lot of meetings, and a lot of calls, and a lot of recorded calls. And we still speak to an average of 5 to 10 managers per week to make sure that we keep a pulse on what our users are really experiencing and the pain points they are going through.
WILL: Yeah, I could tell that you did talk to a lot of managers because I wish I would have had this whenever I had direct reports. Because I remember, early on, someone told me "No one cares what you know until they know that you care." But on the flip side of that, a lot of times, like you were saying, you're just so busy.
Most companies they give you multiple direct reports, more than three or four. And it's almost impossible to really show how much you care in a small amount of time. But this seems like it makes it way more helpful to say, "Hey, I not only care about you as a worker but as a person, too." So, like you said, show empathy because they mentioned X, Y, Z, or take notes around, you know, whatever happened in this so that you know next time that, hey, ask him about that. So, I really like this idea that you created.
The question I have around it is leadership is not easy. So, how did you come up with the direction to go with the leadership? If that makes sense. Because I've seen different leaderships, I've seen some leaderships it's like, yeah, show empathy. Show that you care about the person. And some it's like, no, it's all about work. All about work. And it seems like you lean more towards, I want to show that we care about the worker. So, where did you decide to take which route and things like that?
SARAH: I love this because you're right. There's an art and a science to leadership. And I think, actually, there's way more science than we think. It's this common belief that leadership is something you are born with, and you don't need to learn that it's, I think, hurting both managers and the people they manage a lot. Because then people think, "Oh, but it must come naturally," or "This is a natural born leader." And as a result, the person who isn't or that people think isn't we think they're never going to change, and I don't think that's true.
There's a set of behaviors that have been researched by organizational psychologists, behavioral scientists that have been shown to have impacts on people's motivation, productivity, outputs. So, we make sure to follow those best practices and those scientific data points. One of our advisors is a behavioral scientist. A couple of our advisors are leadership coaches. And one of them has even published a book around how to scale high-performing teams and high-performing companies. So, we try as much as we can to really embed what we're doing in science and in things that are known, albeit not super widely.
And as you said, you need both. You need to care about the person doing the tasks, and you need to care about the tasks being done. But they can't really be separate. And you need to balance the act between the two things. So, that's why we have blended the productivity app with a part that is more centered around skills and skills development because those two things need to communicate. You can't just throw a tool at people and expect them to know how to use it. And at the same time, if you don't make sure that the upskilling and, like, feedback you give is rooted in that person's context and what they're going through, it's not going to be leveraged or used.
So, our approach was really to blend these two things and make sure that, yes, this is going to make the manager's team happier, but it's also going to make them more productive. So, it's not just about happiness. It's about linking both productivity and well-being at work.
VICTORIA: That's really interesting. I'm curious, how do you measure the impact you're having on wellbeing at work? What are the success indicators, and how do you know you're successful in a year or five years from now?
SARAH: We only have been onboarding customers six months ago. So, I think we're starting to see some of the results we want to see, but it's still a bit early days because, as you said, behavioral change and habits take a long time to form and become sticky and start showing an impact on wellbeing.
But overall, the feedback, the qualitative feedback we got was that managers feel way less imposter syndrome using the app. They feel that they are on top of what they need to achieve. They know what they're doing. They know what's expected of them. And their team also appreciates the fact that they are spending time and effort trying to get better because they know that they are using this tool to improve. So, they also get a signal that, okay, they are really trying. But at the same time, we do measure these. So, that feedback we give is actually based on measurement or assessment of each one of the skills that we measure for our users. And we have seen those scores evolve and go up over time just over the last few months.
Personally, I'm quite bad at delegation. Potentially, that's why I brought it up earlier. And I have seen my score improve over the last few months using Waggle because it's more front of mind. I'm aware that I'm being assessed that almost someone is looking at what I'm doing, even if it's an AI. So, it feels a bit more safe than if it was a real person looking at what I was doing. But I know that I need to be on my A-game every day, and so I put in intentional efforts to try and delegate when I'm in a team meeting. And, potentially, I wouldn't have had that same level of awareness if I didn't get that feedback. I would just not delegate but not to be aware that I wasn't.
WILL: I like what you said is AI is not like your manager sitting in the meeting with you and saying, "Hey, you have to get these scores up," but it feels safer that AI is telling you, "Hey, you have to improve your empathy and get better at that." So, I really like that idea.
SARAH: Nice. Let's get you on the app then.
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WILL: So, I'm looking at your website now and, you know, I'm looking at the side, and it's like, "Hey, you know, Emily presented well, you know, send them a note of encouragement, or share a summary of the email." I made so many mistakes when I was a leader, so many. I wish I would have known the benefit of...because I almost...when I first went into it, I was like, they're adults. They can take their own notes. And now that I look at it, it's like, I could have easily helped out just saying, "Hey, here's a summary of the meeting that we had, and this is how we get better," and just helping each other out. So, I really like what you're doing here and what you have already in the app. What's on the horizon for the app? What does success look like in the next six months or five years for you?
SARAH: So, the way we see it is we want to know more about the managers we're helping, know more about their context, what's going on in their daily life. Because the more we know, the more we can help them and support them. So, the way we see it is now we basically get data through the calendar connection, and through the meeting notes, and transcripts that we get.
But we would also like to know how they communicate with their team on Slack. How do they get their tasks done, and how does their team get their tasks done? How do they follow up on those tasks? But also, how fast do they reply to emails? What's the context of their emails? All of these things are data points that we can use to know their context and know them better and really tweak the AI so that it knows them better and it adapts to their setup. So that, as we go, what the AI tells you is completely different from what it tells me, for example, because it's got to know you, and it's got to know what interventions work well for you and which ones don't and get smarter at that.
And also, it gets to know how your team reacts to those behaviors that you show and attitudes. Which types of management work for Amy in your team versus Jim, right? Because they are different people as well. And so, whatever works with one person doesn't necessarily work with another and help you adapt and flex your management style with them.
VICTORIA: Do you have any other core values that drive your everyday decisions?
SARAH: We want to make sure that this never turns into a spying tool, and this is super key in the way we thought about the product, and we built it from very early days. We're conscious that we're having access, and our users trust us with a lot of data. And we're never going to share that data, even with your own manager. Because this is a tool for you as a manager to work on your skills and have that growth mindset, not for someone to spy on you or know how you're behaving. So, that's a commitment that we'll never share any specific data from users to their leadership team, to their HR team, no one else in the team, really.
What we also have as a guiding principle is we want to minimize the amount of work that is required from you to leverage these skills. So, we are trying to save managers' time whenever we can and wherever we can and never just, like, load a lot of content and feedback on them that they're not going to have time to process an action. So to strike a balance between, okay, well, you probably need to spend a bit more time on this specific skill or following up on this specific meeting. But we also saved you two hours today throughout the day so that you can focus on that extra half an hour work that is going to help your skills improve.
WILL: What are some of your biggest hurdles?
SARAH: Well, basically, this didn't exist until now. And so, just finding how we talk about it and, like, I mean, no one is looking for the solution because they don't know it's there, right? So, the first part is, how do we find people that we can support and help who aren't necessarily looking for this but are looking for alternative solutions that exist right now? And how do we talk about it in a way that makes them click and makes them envision this new way of doing things as a potential better way?
A lot of startups go through this journey. But basically, no one was looking for Ubers before Uber existed. People would hail a cab. And so, at the beginning, Uber pretended to be a cab service before they said, "Okay, we're actually not a cab. We're something else." And so, that something else is what we're trying to define right now.
VICTORIA: I used to live in a neighborhood in DC where the cab drivers would not go to [laughs]. So, I really loved Uber when it first started because I could actually get a ride. So, that's where some of the innovation comes in sometimes. It's like, solving a problem and seeing the demand and then building a product around it. I'm curious about how you're building an AI product and how are you thinking about controlling the cost and the kind of infrastructure demands of an app like Waggle?
SARAH: To be completely honest, we're not focused on that so much right now. I think it's a very fair question, and it's something that we're going to start to have to look into as we start to scale. But, for now, we're really focused on figuring out are we delivering the value we want to deliver to our users? Can we fix the problems they are hiring us to fix? But yeah, for sure, at scale, this is super costly, and we'll need to figure out the unit economics of the product and how to make it work, but we're not there yet.
VICTORIA: And how are you finding the resources to be able to experiment and have the time to build this product? What networks, or communities, or venues have you found to create space to build your app?
SARAH: So, we've been through Techstars last year. And I think the network around Techstars was super useful in gathering a lot of feedback in a very short amount of time over the three months that the program lasted. And we try to put a lot of content out there to try help people who are looking for solutions to communicate with an employee who's not performing at the level they expected them to or for a manager that doesn't know how to do a one-on-one.
This type of content we're putting it out for free because it's solving our end user's problem, partially at least, and puts us on their radar. So, they might think, "Okay, I started looking into this first problem because that's what's front of mind right now. But as I see this product, it potentially could help me through a lot more issues that I'm currently having," and get visibility across those users that are exactly our perfect type of user. But yeah, overall, trying to put content out there creates a community around us.
Lots of connections that happen through LinkedIn, through existing networks, through our users talking to other users about us, and even a number of coaches and L&D experts who really, really love what we're doing and talk about us to their users, to their customers and spread the word that way.
WILL: You're talking about, like, explaining the product to your customers and everyone. I think, for me, it resonates fairly easy because I made so many mistakes as a leader. And I'm like, oh, this could have helped me so many times to be a better leader. And so, I'll make an assumption. It seems like your product was made out of you making mistakes and learning from them, and you built a product because you want to be a better leader. So, my question for you is: What advice would you go back and give yourself when you first started? What's some advice that you can go back in time and give yourself?
SARAH: One of the first ones, and one of the biggest mistakes, and I've also heard this from so many other managers, is that as human beings, we tend to treat people the way we would like to be treated. And very quickly, we understand that that's not how things work. So, I used to like having space not to be managed very closely. So, I would just naturally give a lot of space to the people I started managing when I first started. It might work for some of them, but not for all of them. And that's what created the most issues and lack of performance, I would say, coming from them.
And it's easy to think, oh, it's their fault. They're not performing. But no, it's my fault as a manager because I didn't adapt to their needs, and I didn't give them what they needed to perform. And that's, again, very different from one person to another.
VICTORIA: Yeah. And I'm curious to go back to something you mentioned earlier about empathy. And just maybe how do you build an AI with a sense of empathy that helps managers be more empathetic?
SARAH: So, again, interestingly, AI can pick up on human behaviors way more than we think. Like, the feedback we get from the app sometimes is super interesting and, like, sometimes even a bit scary because these are patterns, right? AI is good at recognizing patterns. If you tell it what to look for, it will find it. So, it works. It just works.
VICTORIA: Well, I'm very curious to try it out. And I have some people I'm thinking about who work in building empathy with developers and engineers, and they probably would also really love to try it out.
SARAH: Nice. Send them our way.
VICTORIA: Of course. Do you have any questions for me or Will?
SARAH: Yeah. What's the hardest thing you're currently doing at work that you would love support on?
WILL: I think as a developer, there's a lot of things that I don't know that I wish I know what direction to take. Because I feel like as a developer, you come in and you're like, I want to learn X, Y, Z, but there's so much to uncover. For example, mobile, there's so many directions to learn with mobile.
In the technical part, probably sometimes what direction to go in my learning and things like that. Because, like, I'm a senior developer, and I've reached a certain part. But I feel like now it's like you learn on the go. Like, oh, I have this problem. Let me solve it. So, sometimes I wish I can get ahead of that and be like, hey, go learn how to do this because you're going to use it later. So, that's probably my biggest thing with technical.
And probably relational, you touched on it a little bit, but naturally, we're bent towards treating other people the way we want to be treated. And so, what that says is everyone around me has my exact background, my exact trauma, my exact upbringing. So, if you treat them that way, this should make sense, and that's just not the way it is. And so, I think, for me, it's making sure that I remind myself of that and to listen, to understand that background, trauma, whatever, of the people that I'm working with so that I can get to know them better and understand them better, and then I can know how to treat them.
So, I would say that's probably my two biggest things that I have to continually work on and fight to make sure that I'm doing it the right way.
SARAH: I love that.
VICTORIA: Yeah. I really appreciate that perspective, Will. And from a slightly different angle, I think I'm someone who really enjoys complex tasks. So, I think those are actually more fun and easier to do [laughs] but that more mundane tasks are kind of difficult. And making sure I'm on top of those, like, tiny, little to-dos that make you effective just consistently with certain managing tasks.
But I think in terms of complexity and one of the hardest things to do, kind of along the lines of what Will was saying, you have to establish a common language between your team. And you have to have a system for managing your work so that everyone feels heard and everyone understands each other, and so you can move quickly and make decisions. So, I think that's a really complicated task.
And the more people you have, the more complicated it is. There's just so many different ways of solving that problem, and everyone comes back from different cultures, different corporate cultures, different tools that they've used, and their preferences. And people's preferences on tools can almost be religious, and that's interesting to me how strongly people can hold on to how they've been doing things. And making that shift in direction step by step and having the patience for it, I think, is difficult.
SARAH: It's so funny that most problems, at the end of the day, are people problems, even if they don't start by being that.
WILL: I totally agree with that because I chose what company to work for based off of the people and the culture more than the other problems. Because I've worked in some companies that had a great culture, but the people were treated right. And I enjoyed working with the people that I was working with. And then, I had some that I'm like, uh, I got to go in today and deal with such and such, and ugh. I think you're spot on. That caused me more stress than trying to solve the actual tasks that I was working on.
So, yeah, I actually choose companies that I like working with the people. So, with thoughtbot, I love my co-workers. I love getting to know them the diversity in it. So, that's one of the reasons why I love thoughtbot so much.
SARAH: What a great way to end this.
VICTORIA: Yes. Thank you so much for being here with us today, Sarah. I really enjoyed listening to your story.
You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, you can email us at [email protected]. And you can find me on thoughtbot.social@vguido.
WILL: And you can find me on Twitter @will23larry.
This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time.
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Victoria Guido hosts Robbie Holmes, the founder and CEO of Holmes Consulting Group. The conversation kicks off with Robbie recounting his initial foray into the tech world at a small web hosting company named A1 Terabit.net, chosen for its alphabetical advantage in the white pages. This job was a stepping stone to a more significant role at Unisys, working for the state of New York's Department of Social Services, where Robbie inadvertently ventured into civic tech and public interest technology.Robbie shares his career progression from supporting welfare systems in New York to becoming a technological liaison between the city and state, leading to a deeper involvement in open-source solutions. His journey through tech spaces includes developing websites, diving into the Drupal community, and eventually establishing his consulting business. Robbie emphasizes the serendipitous nature of his career path, influenced significantly by community involvement and networking rather than a planned trajectory.Additionally, Robbie gives insights on the impact of technology in public services and his stint with the U.S. Digital Service (USDS), where he contributed to significant projects like vets.gov. Robbie promotes the value of community engagement in shaping one's career, stressing how connections and being in the right place at the right time can lead to unexpected opportunities and career pivots.Follow Robbie Holmes on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/robbiethegeek/), X (https://twitter.com/RobbieTheGeek), Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/robbiethegeek), Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/robbiethegeek), or GitHub (https://github.com/robbiethegeek). Check out his website at robbiethegeek (https://about.me/robbiethegeek).Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/).Transcript:VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Robbie Holmes, Founder and CEO of Holmes Consulting Group. Robbie, thank you for joining me. ROBBIE: I'm so happy to be here. It's great to talk to you, Victoria. VICTORIA: Yes. I have known you for a long time now, but I don't know everything about you. So, I thought I would start with the question: What was your first job that you ever had? ROBBIE: My first technical job, I ended up working for an internet web hosting company called A1 Terabit.net. And note the A1 because it came first in the white pages. It was a really small web hosting company run by a man named [SP] Maxim Avrutsky. I worked there for about six months before I submitted my resume to an online job forum. That's how old I am. And it ended up in the hands of Unisys, where I eventually worked for the state of New York.VICTORIA: Wow [laughs]. So, what a journey that you've been on to get from starting there, and what a marketing ploy back in the day with the white pages. So, tell me a little bit more about how you went from that first job to where you are today with having your own business in consulting. ROBBIE: Yeah, I wasn't even aware that I was jumping into the sort of civic tech space and public interest technology because the job I ended up with was working for New York State in the Department of Social Services. And welfare is federally funded and distributed to states and then states to localities. And New York City and New York State have a weird parasymbiotic relationship because over 50% of the welfare in New York State goes to the five boroughs in New York City. So, so much of my job was supporting the welfare system within the city, which was run by the human resources administration. So, that just led to this cascade of me, like, getting invested in supporting that, and then eventually jumping over to the other side where I worked for the City of New York. And at that point, I ended up becoming sort of a technology project manager and almost a tech liaison between the city and state. And I was out in the welfare centers, helping get the job centers up to a new application called the Paperless Office System, which was a client-server app that was a wrapper around welfare.All of that ended up leading to me finally making it to the network operation center for the City of New York, where I started replacing expensive solutions like HP OpenView with open-source solutions like Nagios and another open-source solution that provided an interface. And it really opened my eyes to the idea of open source. And I had really paid attention to a lot of open-source operating systems. So, I was kind of just a general tech nerd. And eventually, I started building websites, and that led me to the Drupal community in New York City, which was sort of this cascade that led me to communities. And I think that's sort of a through line for my entire career is I don't really think I ever had a plan. I think my entire career has been this sort of a lucky happenstance of being prepared when an opportunity arose and sometimes being in the right place because of my connections and community. VICTORIA: That's interesting about being involved with the people around you and seeing what problems are out there to solve and letting that lead you to where your interests lie. And then, following that, naturally led you to, like, this really long career and these really interesting, big projects and problems that you get to solve. ROBBIE: Yeah. And I think one interesting aspect is like, I feel I spent a lot of time worried about what I was going to do and where I was going to do it. I don't have a bachelor's degree. I don't have an advanced degree. I have a high school diploma and a couple of years in college. Well, 137 credits, not the right 125 or 124 to have a bachelor's degree. I have enough credits for a couple of minors though, definitely Greek art history, I think mathematics, maybe one more. I just never got it together and actually got my degree. But that was so interesting because it was limiting to what jobs I could find. So, I was in the tech space as an IT person and specifically doing networking. So, I was running the network operation center. I helped, like, create a whole process for how we track tickets, and how we created tickets, and how things were moved along. And, in the process, I started building websites for family and friends. And I built a website for our network operation center, so that way we could have photos to go with our diagrams of the network. So that way, when we were troubleshooting remotely, we could actually pull up images and say, "The cable that's in port six goes off to the router. I think that port is dead. Can we move it to the port two to its right, and I'll activate it?" And that made a really interesting solution for something we weren't even aware we had, which was lack of visibility. So many of the people in the fields were newer or were trying to figure it out. And some of us had really deep knowledge of what was going on in those network rooms and hubs. It led me to this solution of like, well, why don't we just start documenting it and making it easier for us to help when they're in the field? That led me to, like, the Drupal community because I started building sites in the Drupal CMS. And I went to, like, my first Drupal meetup in 2007, and there was, like, five of us around the table. That led to eventually me working for Sony Music and all these other things. But the year before I found my way to the Drupal community, I probably sent out, like, 400 resumes for jobs in the tech space, didn't really get any callbacks. And then, I met the community, and I started attending events, and then eventually, I started organizing events. And then, Sony I interviewed and talked to them a couple of times. And then, a friend of mine became the boss. And she contacted me and was like, "Hey, are you in the market?" And I was like, "I don't know. Why? What's up?" And she's like, "I became Doug." And I was like, "What?" And she was like, "I'm now replacing Doug at Sony. I'm running the team." And I was like, "Yeah, I'm happy to talk." And that was the big transition in my career from IT to sort of development and to delivery, right? Like, when it comes right down to it, is I became the manager of interactive media at Sony Music, which was really a job I landed because I was connected to the community, and running events, and getting to know everyone.VICTORIA: Yeah. And I think it's really cool that you had this exposure early on to what you called civic tech, which we'll get into a little bit, and then you went from the community into a commercial technology space and really getting into engineering with Drupal. ROBBIE: Yeah, it was an interesting transition because what they needed at Sony was sort of somebody who could ride the line between systems engineer, database administrator, and Drupal engineer, and also probably pre-DevOps DevOps person. So, I was responsible for all deployments and all tickets that came in. I was sort of both the technical arm of the help desk. When I joined, there was 24 websites on the Drupal platform, and when I left, there was over 200. And we upgraded it from Drupal 5 to Drupal 6 to Drupal 7 while I was there. So, I was heavily involved in all of those updates, and all those upgrades, and all of the deployments of all the new themes, and all the changes to all these sites. So, what was great was they, I believe, if I understand it correctly, they actually created a role for me out of, like, two or three jobs because they needed a me, and they didn't have a role that existed. So, all of a sudden, they made a manager of interactive media role. And I was able to work there for two years, sort of being what I jokingly say, like, a digital janitor. I used to say that I had, like, an eight-bit key ring in a push broom. And I was always mad at your kids for trying to break my stuff. VICTORIA: [laughs] That's so good. A digital service janitor [laughs]? The connection for me between that and where I met you in the U.S. digital service space [laughs] I feel like there's a lot of parallels between that and where your career evolved later on in life. ROBBIE: Yeah. What's amazing is I did all this early work in my career in civic tech and didn't realize it was civic tech at the time. I just realized what I was doing was providing this huge impact and was value. You know, I spent a couple of years in the welfare centers, and I used to say all the time that the two hardest jobs in the welfare center are the person applying for welfare and the person deciding whether or not that person gets welfare. So, being a technologist and trying to help make that as simple as possible or easier and smooth the edges off of that process was really important. And it really taught me how important technology is to delivering service. And I really never thought about it before. And then, when I was working for Phase2 technologies, I was a director of Digital Services. And I read in a blog post, I believe that was written by Mikey Dickerson, who was the original administrator for USDS, and he talked about HealthCare.gov. And he walked in the door, and he said, "How do you know HealthCare.gov is down?" And I think there was some allusion to the fact that we were like, we turn on the television and if they're yelling at us, we know it's down. And Mikey was like, "We know how to monitor things." So, like, if you don't know Mikey Dickerson, he's the person who sort of created the web application hierarchy of needs in Google. He was an SRE. And his pyramid, like Maslow's hierarchy of needs, was all over Google when I was there. I was so impressed with the idea that, like, we aren't talking about how do we solve this problem? We're talking about knowing when there's a problem. And then, if we know there's a problem, we can put some messaging around that. We can say, like, "We're aware," right? Like if the president calls the secretary, the secretary can say, "We know it's down. We're working on it," which is building up political capital.It's a really amazing process that I kept reading this blog post, and I was like, God, that's how I would approach it. And then, I was like, wow, I wonder if I could use my skills to help America, and very shortly submitted an application and was like, well, we'll see what happens. And about six months later, I walked in the door at the VA and was the eighth employee of the Digital Service team at the VA. That was a franchise team of the USDS model. VICTORIA: And can you say a little bit more about what is the U.S. Digital Service and expand upon your early experience there? ROBBIE: Yeah. So, the United States Digital Service was created after HealthCare.gov had its issues. Todd Park had convinced President Obama to reach out to get support from the private industry. And the few of the people who were there, Todd convinced to stick around and start creating a team that could support if there was this kind of issue in the future. I believe the team that was there on the ground was Mikey Dickerson, Erie Meyer, Haley Van Dyck, and Todd. And there was a few other people who came back or were very close at the beginning, including the current administrator of USDS. She has been around a long time and really helped with HealthCare.gov. It's amazing that Mina is back in government. We're very lucky to have her.But what came out of that was what if we were able to stand up a team that was here in case agencies needed support or could vet solutions before these types of problems could exist? So, USDS was what they called the startup inside the White House that was created during the 2014 administration of President Obama. The team started that year, and I joined in May of 2016. So, I would be, like, sort of the beginning of the second team of the VA U.S. Digital Service team. So, USDS supported this idea of tours of duty, where you're a schedule A employee, which meant you were a full-time government employee, but you were term-limited. You could do up to two years of duty and work, and then you could theoretically stick around and do two more years. That was how these roles were envisioned. I think there's lots of reasons why that was the case. But what's nice is it meant that you would come in with fresh eyes and would never become part of the entrenched IT ecosystem.There are people that transition from USDS into government, and I think that's a huge value prop nowadays. It's something that I don't know they were thinking about when the original United States Digital Service was stood up, but it was hugely impactful. Like, I was part of the team at the VA that helped digitize the first form on vets.gov and all the work that was done. When the VA team started, there was a team that was helping with veteran benefits, and they worked on the appeals process for veteran benefits. And I joined. And there was a team that was...eventually, it became dubbed the veteran-facing tools team. And we worked on vets.gov, which was a new front door to expose and let veterans interact with the VA digitally. And over time, all the work that went into the tools and the solutions that were built there, everything was user-researched. And all of that work eventually got brought into VA.gov in what they called a brand merger. So, we took, like, the sixth most trafficked front door of the VA and took all the modern solutioning that that was and brought it into VA.gov, the main front door. So, all of a sudden, there was an identity, a login provided on VA.gov for the first time. So big, impactful work that many people were a part of and is still ongoing today.Surprisingly, so much of this work has now fallen under OCTO, which is the Office of the CTO in the VA. And the CTO is Charles Worthington, who was a USDSer who's the epitome of a person who goes where the work is. Charles was a Presidential Innovation Fellow who helped out in the times of HealthCare.gov and, joined USDS and did anything and everything that was necessary. He interviewed engineers. He was a product person. Charles is one of the most unique technologists and civic tech people I've ever met in my life. But Charles, at the end of the Obama administration and in this transition, realized that the VA was in need of someone to fill the CTO role. So, he came over to become the interim CTO because one of the values of USDS is to go where the work is. And he realized, with the transition, that Marina Nitze, who was the CTO who was transitioning out, there was going to be a need for continuity. So, he came in to provide that continuity and eventually became the full-time CTO and has been there ever since.So, he has helped shape the vision of what the VA is working towards digitally and is now...he was just named the Chief AI Officer for the agency. Charles is a great person. He has successfully, you know, shepherded the work that was being done early by some of us into what is now becoming a sort of enterprise-wide solution, and it's really impressive.VICTORIA: I appreciate you sharing that. And, you know, I think there's a perception about working for public service or for government, state or federal agencies, that they are bureaucratic, difficult to work with, very slow. And I think that the USDS was a great example of trying to really create a massive change. And there's been this ripple effect of how the government acquires products and services to support public needs, right? ROBBIE: Yeah, I would say there's a couple of arms of the government that were sort of modernization approaches, so you have the Presidential Innovation Fellows, which are the equivalent of, like, entrepreneurs and residents in government. And they run out of...I think they're out of the TTS, the Technology Transformation Service over at GSA, which is the General Services Administration. But the PIFs are this really interesting group of people that get a chance to go in and try to dig in and use their entrepreneurial mindset and approach to try to solve problems in government. And a lot of PIFS work in offices. Like, Charles' early team when he first became the CTO included a lot of Presidential Innovation Fellows. It was basically like, "Hey, the VA could use some support," and these people were available and were able to be convinced to come and do this work. And then, you have the Presidential Management Fellows, which I think is a little bit more on the administration side. And then, we have 18F and USDS.The United States Digital Service is a funded agency with an OMB. And we were created as a way to provide the government with support either by detailing people over or dropping in when there was a problem. And then, 18F is an organization that is named because the offices of GSA and TTS (Technology Transformation Service), where it's housed, are on the corner of 18th Street and F in DC. And 18F is sort of like having a technology or a digital agency for hire within the government. So, they are full-time employees of the government, sort of like USDS, except government agencies can procure the support of that 18F team, just like they would procure the support of your company. And it was a really interesting play. They are fully cost-recoupable subcomponent of TTS, which means they have to basically make back all the money that they spend, whereas USDS is different. It's congressionally funded for what it does. But they're all similar sibling organizations that are all trying to change how government works or to bring a more modern idea or parlance into the government. I used to say to people all the time that at USDS, you know, we would set a broken bone say, and then we would come back around and say, like, "Hey, does your arm hurt anymore?" The idea being like, no. Be like, "Cool, cool. Maybe you should go to the gym, and you should eat better." And that would be, like, procurement change. That would be, like, changing for the long term. So, all the work I was doing was building political capital so we could do better work in changing how procurement was done and then changing how the government delivered these things. So, what was awesome was, like, we used to have these fights at USDS about whether or not we were a culture change or we were firefighters. And I think the reality is once we're involved, culture changes happen. The bigger question is, are we going to be there for the long haul, or are we only there for a shorter period of time? And I think there are reasons why USDS teams had both plays. And I think it really is just two different plays for the same outcome.VICTORIA: Yeah, that makes sense. And to pivot a little bit, I think, you know, our audience, we have clients and listeners who are founders of products that are aimed at making these, like, public service needs, or to give some examples, like, maybe they're trying to track Congressional voting patterns or contact information for different state representatives, and they're trying to navigate this space [laughs]. So, maybe you can give some advice for founders interested in selling their products to government agencies. What can they do to make it more appealing and less painful for themselves? ROBBIE: I wouldn't consider myself a procurement expert, but at USDS, the procurement team called themselves the [SP] procurementati.And I was a secret member of the procurementati. I often was the engineer they would call to evaluate statements of work or sometimes be on technology evaluation panels. And it was fun to be a part of that. Things that most companies don't realize is government agencies will put out things like request for information or sources sought in the government space. And this is a way for industry to influence how government tries to solve problems.If you are trying to go after government work and you're only responding to an RFP, you're probably behind in your influence that you could have on the type of work. So, you'll see if a procurement seems to be, like, specifically focused on an approach, or a technology, or a framework, it's probably because some companies have come through and said, "I think this would probably solve your problem," and they gave examples. So, that's one way to be more connected to what's going on is to follow those types of requests. Another is to follow the money. My wife is this amazing woman who helped write The Data Act and get it passed through government. And The Data Act is the Data and Transparency Act. And that led to her heading over to treasury and leading up a team that built USAspending.gov. So, there is a website that tracks every dollar, with some exceptions, of the funding that comes out of Congress every year. And what's great is you can track it down to where it's spent, and how it's spent, and things like that. For education purposes, I think that is a really good thing that business and growth people can focus on is try to see and target where competitors or where solutions that you've looked at have gone in the past. It's just a good set of data for you to take a look at. The other piece is if you're creating a solution that is a delivery or a deliverable, like a SaaS solution, in order for something to be utilized in the government, it probably needs to be FedRAMP-approved, which is a process by which security approvals have been given so that government agencies have the green light to utilize your solution. So, there's tons of documentation out there about FedRAMP and the FedRAMP approval process. But that is one of those things that becomes a very big stopping point for product companies that are trying to work in the government.The easiest way to work your way through that is to read up on it a bunch, but also find an agency that was probably willing to sponsor you getting FedRAMP approval. Most companies start working with a government agency, get an exemption for them to utilize your product, and then you get to shape what that FedRAMP process looks like. You start applying for it, and then you have to have some sort of person who's helping shepherd it for you internally in the government and accepting any issues that come along in the process. So, I guess FedRAMP approval is one that's a little complicated but would be worth looking into if you were planning on delivering a product in government.VICTORIA: Right. And does that apply to state governments as well? ROBBIE: So, lots of state-related and city and locality-related governments will actually adopt federal solutions or federal paradigms. So, I think in the state of California, I think FedRAMP as one of the guiding principles for accepting work into the state of California, so it's not consistent. There's not a one-to-one that every state, or every city, or every locality will pull this in. But if you are already approved to be a federal contractor, or a federal business, or a federal product, it's probably going to be easier to make your way into the local spaces also. VICTORIA: Right. And as you said, there's plenty of resources, and tools, and everything to help you go along that journey if that's the group you're going for [laughs].Mid-Roll Ad:When starting a new project, we understand that you want to make the right choices in technology, features, and investment but that you don’t have all year to do extended research.In just a few weeks, thoughtbot’s Discovery Sprints deliver a user-centered product journey, a clickable prototype or Proof of Concept, and key market insights from focused user research. We’ll help you to identify the primary user flow, decide which framework should be used to bring it to life, and set a firm estimate on future development efforts.Maximize impact and minimize risk with a validated roadmap for your new product. Get started at: tbot.io/sprint.VICTORIA: So, kind of bringing it back to you, like, you're saying you want those partnerships within the government. You want someone advocating for you or for your product or your service. Drawing that back to what you said earlier about community, like, how do you form a community with this group of people who are in the state, or federal government, or civic tech spaces? ROBBIE: Yeah, I think it's an interesting problem because so much of it feels impenetrable from the outside. Most people don't even know where to start. There are organizations out there that are pretty good community connections, an example I would give is ACT-IAC. It is a public-private partnership where people from within the government, experts in their fields, and people in the private industry who are experts in their fields will be together on community boards and engaging in panels. And so, it's a really nice way to start connecting those dots. I have no direct affiliation with ACT-IAC. But if they'd like to give me my own account, that would be great. But it is one of those organizations I've seen be successful for people trying to find their way into a community that is a little harder to find. I think, also, so much of the community engagement happens at conferences and around...so, like, if you're in the healthcare space, this last month, you've had multiple conferences that I think were really great for people to get to know one another, you know, an example is ViVE. It just happened out in LA, which is a little more on the private sector health space, but still, government agencies were there. I know that the Department of Veterans Affairs had people there and were on panels. And then, HIMSS is another conference that takes place, and that just took place down in Miami. And in Miami, HIMSS happened and a whole bunch of other social community events took place.So, I'm close with a thing called the Digital Services Coalition, which is 47 companies that all try to deliver good government based on the Digital Services Playbook that was created by USDS that lives at playbook.cio.gov and the way that they try to accomplish this work. And that organization, while they were in Miami, hosted a happy hour. So, there's a lot of connections that can be made once you start seeing the players and getting to know who's around. So, it's a little bit about trying to find your way to that first event, and I think that will really open up everything for you. Within a week or two, I was at an International Women's Day event at MetroStar, which is a really great company that I've gotten a chance to spend some time with. And then, I was at an event for the Digital Services Coalition talking about open source in government. So, there's a lot of stuff out there for you to be a part of that isn't super cost-prohibitive and also doesn't take a lot once you start to open the door. You know, once you peek around that corner and you find some people, there's a lot more to be done.VICTORIA: Yeah. And you touched on something at the end there that wants me to bring up some of the advantages you can have being a small business, a minority-owned business, or woman-owned business, or veteran-owned business, so thinking about how you can form those connections, especially if you have one of those socio and economic set-asides that you might want to consider if they're looking to work with the government as well.ROBBIE: Yeah. Those socioeconomic set-asides include small businesses, woman-owned small business. I think it's Native and Alaskan 8(a), which is historically underrepresented and service-disabled veteran-owned. So, there are also sub-communities of associations, like there's the Digital WOSB, the digital Women-Owned Small Business alliance that was founded by Jess Morris from Pluribus Digital, and a bunch of other companies in the Digital Services Coalition. I believe she's the president of the Digital WOSB right now. That is a sub-community of women-owned small businesses that are trying to connect and create a community that they can support one another. And that's just one example of the type of connection you can make through those types of socioeconomic set-asides. But once you have those official socioeconomic set-asides, it will allow you to get specific contracts engagements in the government that are not allowed or available for others. So, the government procurement process will have some amount of these specific socioeconomic set-asides that need to be hit. Like, 8% of all procurements need to go to this and 10% of all procurements need to go to this.So, I think the VA is probably one of the most effective at hitting any of the socioeconomic set-asides, specifically related to service-disabled veteran-owned small businesses. So, if you happen to be a person of color and you found a business and you are female presenting, right? You may have 8(a) woman-owned small business. If you also happen to be a veteran and you're service-disabled, all of those things stack. You don't just get to have one of them. And they can be really effective in helping a business get a leg up and starting out and trying to help even the playing field for those communities. VICTORIA: Yeah. What I really appreciated about my experience working with Pluribus Digital, and you, and people who had had that experience in the U.S. Digital Services, that there is this community and desire to help each other out and that you can have access to people who know how to move your product forward, get you the connections that you need to be competitive, and to go after the work. So, I love encouraging people to consider civic tech options. And maybe even say more about just how impactful some of it can be. And what kind of missions are you solving in these spaces?ROBBIE: Yeah, I often try to remind people, especially those who are heading towards or considering civic tech, there are very few places in this world that you can work on something that can impact millions of people. Sure, I was lucky enough. I have tons of privilege. I worked at a lot of wacky places that have given me the access to do the type of work that I think is impactful, but very little has the kind of impact. Like, when I was interviewed by Marina Nitze as, my last interview when I joined USDS, she sent me an email at the end of it and said like, "Everything was great. I look forward to working with you. And remember, every time you commit code into our GitHub, you'll be helping 8 million veterans." And then, she cc'd Todd Park. And Todd was the CTO of the U.S., and he responded back within a minute. Todd is one of the most busy people. It was amazing to me how fast he responded. But he was like, "Lemme tell you, as somebody who can talk on behalf of our president, our country needs you." And those kinds of things they're hard to comprehend. And then, I joined the Digital Service team at the VA. And one of the first things that I got to support was the 10-10EZ. It's the healthcare application for veterans. And before I got there, it was a hosted PDF that we were trying to replace. And the team had been working for months to try to build a new, modern solution. What it was is it was, like, less than six submissions were happening a day because it only worked in Adobe Acrobat, I think it was 6.5 and below, and Internet Explorer 8.5 and below. And if you think about the people that could submit utilizing that limited set of technologies, it was slowly becoming homeless veterans who were using library computers that had not been upgraded. So, there was a diminishing amount of value that it was providing. And then, on top of it, it was sort of lying to veterans. If the version of the Adobe Acrobat was out of date, or wrong, or too new, it would tell them to upgrade their browser. So, like, it was effectively not providing any value over time. We were able to create a new version of that and that was already well on its way when I joined, but we were able to get it out the door. And it was a React frontend using a Node backend to talk to that SOAP API endpoint. Within the first week, we went from 6 submissions a day to 60 submissions a day. It's a joke, right? We were all 10x developers. We were like, "Look at us. We're killing it." But about three years later, Matt Cutts came to a staff meeting of USDS, and he was the second administrator of the USDS. And he brought the cake that had the actual 10-10EZ form on it, and it said, "500,000." And he had checked with the analytics team, and there were over 500,000 submissions of that form, which means there are 500,000 possible veterans that now may or may not have access to healthcare benefits. Those are big problems. All of that was done by changing out one form. It opened up the world. It opened up to a group of veterans that no one else was able to do. They would have had to go into a veteran's office, and they would have had to fill it out in paper. And some veterans just don't have the ability to do that, or don't have an address, or don't have a...so, there are so many reasons why having a digital form that worked for veterans was so important. But this one form that we digitized and we helped make modern has been submitted so many times and has helped so many veterans and their families. And that's just one example. That's just one form that we helped digitize.But now the team, I mean, I'm back in the VA ecosystem. There's, like, 2,500 people in the general channel in the office of the CTO Slack organization. That's amazing. There's people there that are working all day, every day, trying to solve the same problems that I was trying to solve when I got here. And there's so much work being done to help veterans. But that's just one example, right? Like, at USDS, I know that the digital filing for the free version of your tax form, the IRS e-file Direct, just went live. That was something that USDS had been working on for a very long time behind the scenes. And that's going to impact everybody who submits their taxes.These are the kind of problems that you get to work on or the scope of some of the problems if you work in these types of organizations, and that's really powerful. It's the thing that keeps drawing me back. I'm back supporting the VA again through some contracts in my business. But it's funny, like, I was working for another agency. I was over working at DHS on an asylum project. And a friend of mine kept telling people to tell me, "Man, veterans need you. If only there was another one of you to help us over here, that would be great." And eventually, it led to me being like, well, veterans need me. I'm going to go back to the VA. And that was my second tour at USDS at the Department of Veteran Affairs. And now I'm back there again. So, it's a very impactful place to work. There's tons of value you can provide to veterans. And, to me, it's the kind of work that keeps bringing me back. I didn't realize just how much I was a, like, impact junkie until I joined USDS, and then it really came to a head. I cannot believe how much work I've gotten to be a part of that has affected and supported those who get benefits and services from the federal government. VICTORIA: [inaudible 33:47] impact junkie. That's funny. But yeah, no, thank you for sharing that. That's really interesting. Let me see if you could go back in time to when you first started in this journey; if you could give yourself any advice, what would you say?ROBBIE: Yeah, I think I spent so much time being nervous about not having my degree that I was worried it was going to hinder me forever. And it's pretty amazing the career I've been able to thread together, right? Like, you know, I've hit on a few of them already. But, like, I started with a small web hosting company, and then New York State in the Department of Social Services, then New York City in the Human Resources Administration, Sony Music, Zagat Survey, Google, Johnson & Johnson, IDT telecommunications, Phase2 technologies, where I got to work on an awful lot of problems in lots of awesome places like NBA.com, and Major League Soccer, and Bassmaster. And then, the United States Digital Service where I got to work on things supporting the Department of Veterans Affairs and the Department of Homeland Security over at ADA.gov in DOJ. I helped them out. And I worked over at USDA helping get Farmers.gov off the ground.So, everything on my left leg, tattoo-wise, is something that changed my life from my perspective. And I have a Drupal tattoo on the back of my leg. I have a DrupalCon. So, anytime somebody said "Drupal" anywhere near a USDS person, I would magically appear because they would just be like, "Oh, Robbie has that Drupal tattoo." So, I got to work on a lot of dot govs that eventually landed or were being built in Drupal. So, I got to support a lot of work. And it meant that I got to, like, float around in government and do a lot of things that others didn't get to do. When CISA stood up, which is the office of security inside of DHS, it's one of the newest sub-communities or subcomponents, they built DHS SchoolSafety.gov, which is a cross-MOU'd site. And I got to sit in and help at the beginning of that because of my Drupal background. But it was really fun to be the person who helped them work with the vendors and make sure that they understood what they were trying to accomplish and be a sort of voice of reason in the room.So, I did all of that work, and then after that, I went and worked at Pluribus Digital, where I got a chance to work side by side with you. And then, that led to other things, like, I was able to apply and become the director of Digital Services and software engineering for my local county. So, I worked for Prince William County, where I bought a house during the pandemic. And then, after that contract ended, I had already started my own business. So, that's led to me having multiple individual contracts with companies and so many people. I've gotten to work on so many different things. And I feel very lucky.If I could go back and tell myself one thing, it's just, take a breath. Everything's going to be okay. And focus on the things that matter. Focus on the things that are going to help you. Focus on community. Focus on delivering value. Everything else will work itself out. You know, I joke all the time that I'm really good at providing impact. If you can measure my life in impact and value, I would be a very rich man. If you can measure it in money, I'm doing all right, but I'm never going to be yacht Robbie, you know, but I'm going to do okay. VICTORIA: Oh my god, yacht Robbie. That's great. So, just to recap, everything's going to be okay. You never know where it's going to take you. And don't be limited by the things that you think, you know, make you not enough. Like, there's a lot of things that you can do out there. I really like that advice. ROBBIE: And I think one last piece is, like, community matters, if you are a part of communities and you do it genuinely, how much that will impact your career. I gave a talk from Drupal NYC to the White House and beyond. And I talked through my entire resume and how everything changed when I started doing community engagement. When I went to the Drupal community in New York City and how that led to Sony, and that led to Zagat, which led to me getting acquired by Google, like, these things all cascaded. And then, when I moved to the DMV, I was able to join here and continue supporting communities, which allowed me to bring people into the local civic tech community from the local DC tech community. So, so many of the best USDS engineers, and designers, and product people I was able to help influence to come to government were people I met in the community or the communities I helped support. You know, I was an early revivalist of Alexandria Code and Coffee. It was a community that was started and then wavered.And then, Sean McBeth reached out to the community and said, "Do we want to help and support getting it off the ground again?" And I immediately said, "Yes." And then, that led to my friends at BLACK CODE COLLECTIVE wanting to create a community where they could feel safe and connected and create a community of their own. And then DC Code & Coffee started. And from there, Baltimore Code & Coffee kicked off.And it's just really nice that, like, it doesn't matter where I've been. All these things keep coming back to be a part of community and help support others. And you will be surprised at how much you get back in return. I wouldn't be the person I am today in my community. I wouldn't have my career if it wasn't for the people who started and helped shepherd me when I was starting out. And I feel like I've been trying to do the same for people for a really long time. VICTORIA: I love that. That's what I say, too, when people ask me for advice on careers and how to grow. And my biggest piece is always to go out and meet people. And go to your community, like, look and see what's happening. Like, find people you like hanging out with and learning from. And just that should be the majority of your time probably if you're trying to figure out where to go with your career or even just, like, expand as a person sometimes [laughs].Robbie, I was going to ask; you mentioned that you had bought a house in Virginia. One of my other warmup questions was going to be, what's your favorite thing to put on the grill? ROBBIE: My house in Virginia definitely gets a lot of use, especially in the spring and the fall. I'm a big fan of team no extreme when it comes to temperature. But during those time periods, my grill is often fired up. My favorite is probably to make skirt steak on the grill. I'm a huge fan of tacos, especially made out of skirt steak. I'm in all day. That's one of my favorites. I also love to smoke. I have a smoker because I'm a caricature-esque suburban dude. I'm going to live into all of the possible things I could have. But I've had a smoker for a long time, and I love making sort of poor man's burnt ends. It's one of my favorite things to make. But you got to have some time. That's the kind of thing that takes, you know, 14 hours or 16 hours, but it's really fun to take advantage of it.A quick thing I love to make is actually smoked salmon. It takes longer to brine it than it usually does to smoke it. But it is one of the nicest things I've made on my smoker, you know, fresh pesto on a piece of salmon is pretty awesome, or everything bagel. Everything with the bagel seasoning is a pretty fun way to smoke some salmon.VICTORIA: Wow, that sounds so good. I'm going to have to stop in next time I'm in Virginia and get some [laughs] and hang out. Do you have any questions for me? ROBBIE: I'm excited to see where you've gone and how you've gotten here. I think this is such a cool job for you. Knowing who you are as a person and seeing you land in a company like this is really exciting. And I think you getting to be a part of this podcast, which we were joking about earlier, is I've been listening to probably since it started. I've been a big fan for a long time. So, it's cool to be here on this podcast. But it's also cool that my friend is a part of this and gets to be a part of this legacy.I'm really excited to see where you go over time. I know my career has been changing, right? I worked in government. Before that, I did all kinds of other stuff. Nowadays I have my own business where I often joke I have sort of, like, three things I offer, which is, like, consigliere services. Wouldn't it be nice to have a Robbie on your executive team without having to pay them an executive salary?You know, another one is like, you know, strategy and mentoring, but these are all things I know you do also, which I think is cool. But I've been working on contracts where I support companies trying to figure out how they modernize, or how their CTO can be more hands-off keyboard, or how their new director of business development can be more of a technical leader and taking on their first direct reports. So, I just enjoy all those aspects, and I just think it's something that I've watched you do in the company where we worked together.And it's always fun to see what you're working on and getting a chance to catch up with you. I feel like you're one of those people that does a really great job of staying connected. Every once in a while, I'll get a random text message like, "Hey, how you doing?" It always makes me smile. I'm like, Victoria is a really good connector, and I feel like I am, but you're even better at it on the being proactive side. That's how this all came about, right? We caught up, and you were like, "Why don't you come on the podcast?" So, that's really exciting. VICTORIA: Well, thank you, Robbie. Yeah, I think that's one of the great things about community is you meet people. You're like, "Oh, you're really cool. And you're doing cool stuff all the time. Like, how can I support you in your journey [laughs]? Like, what's up?" Yeah, for me, it was hard to actually leave DC. I didn't, you know, really think about the impact of leaving behind my tech community, like, that network of people. It was pretty emotional for me, actually, especially when we finally, like, stopped doing the digital version [laughs]. And I, like, kind of gave up managing it from California, which was kind of funny anyways [laughs]. Yeah, so no, I'm grateful that we stayed in touch and that you made time to be here with us today. Is there anything else that you would like to promote? ROBBIE: You know, just to remind you, you've done a great job of transitioning into where you are today, but anybody can do that, right? Like, before I moved to the DC area, I was in New York, and I was helping to organize JavaScript events. And I started looking at the DC area before I moved down here. And I found the DC Tech Community. And I found the Node School DC GitHub organization and reached out to the person who had ownership of it and said I wanted to help and support. I looked at this the other day. I think I moved on May 8th, and then, like, May 11th, when I walked in the door, somebody was like, "Are you new?" And I was like, "Yeah, I just moved here." And they were like, "Oh, from where?" And I was like, "New York." And they were like, "Are you that guy who's been bugging Josh about running Node school events?" I was like, "Yeah." And like, they were planning an unconference at the end of the month. And they were like, "Would you like to run a Node school at that unconference?" Like, 27 days later.So, it was amazing that, like, I immediately, like, fell from the New York Community where I was super connected, but I went out of my way to try to, like, see what the community looked like before I got there. And I was lucky enough to find the right people, and immediately I joked...I think I wrote a blog post that said like, "I found my new friends. By, like, going from one community to another, gave a person who was in his 40s a chance to meet new people very quickly." And it was pretty amazing, and I felt very lucky. But I did spend a little bit of energy and capital to try to figure it out because I knew it was going to be important to me.So, I think you've done a really good job. You've helped launch and relaunch things that were going on in San Diego and becoming a part of this connection to more people. I think you and I have a very similar spirit, which is like, let's find a way to connect with humans, and we do it pretty effectively.VICTORIA: Well, thank you. That really boosts my confidence, Robbie [laughs]. Sometimes, you show up to an event you've never been to before by yourself, and it's like a deer in headlights kind of moment. Like, oh God, what have I done [laughs]? ROBBIE: Oh, and the last thing I need to mention is I also have a podcast. I have my podcast about film. It's called Geek on Film. I used to record it with my friend, Jon. He's a little busy right now. But I used to pitch it as a conversation show about the current films that were going on. Now, it's one lone geek's ramblings about what he just saw. It's a great podcast for me because it gives me an opportunity to think a little more critically about film, which is one of the things that I probably have almost enough credits to get a minor in. But I absolutely love cinema and film in general. And it's given me an opportunity to connect with a lot more people about this subject and also to scratch the itch of me being able to create something around a community and around a thing I really love.VICTORIA: That's super cool. Yeah. You're top of mind because I also like films. I'm like, what's Robbie up to? Like, what's the recommendations, you know [laughs]? Do you have a top film recommendation from the Oscars? Is that too big of a question? ROBBIE: So, the one I will say that didn't get enough spotlight shined on it was Nimona. So, I'm a huge fan of the Spider-Man movies. I think Spider-Man Into the Spider-Verse and Across the Spider-Verse are both masterpieces. But Nimona is an animated film that was picked up by Netflix, and it is amazing.I don't know that I laughed or cried or was more moved by a film last year. And I don't know that it gets enough credit for what it was. But it did get nominated for best-animated film, but I don't know that enough people paid attention to it. Like it may have gotten lost in the algorithm. So, if you get a chance, check out Nimona. It's one of those beautiful, little gems that, if you travel down its story, there's all these twists and turns. It was based on a webcomic that became a graphic novel. One of the production companies picked it up, and it wasn't going to see the light of day. And then, Netflix bought its distribution rights. There's going to be a great documentary someday about, like, Inside Nimona. But I think the movie itself is really charming and moving, and I was really impressed with it. So, that was the one that got me, like, just before the Oscars this year, where I was like, this is the little animated movie that could, in my opinion. It's so charming. VICTORIA: I will definitely have to check that out. Thank you for giving us that recommendation. ROBBIE: Totally. VICTORIA: Final question. I just wanted to see if you had anything to share about being an advisory board member for Gray and for Hutch Studio. Could you tell us a little bit more about that? ROBBIE: Yeah. So, Gray Digital was founded by a friend of mine. We met through United States Digital Service. And his organization...I had been supporting him for a while and just being behind the scenes, talking to him and talking through business-related issues. And it was really nice. He offered to make me an official advisory board member. It was a great acknowledgment, and I really felt moved. There's some great people that are supporting him and have supported him. They've done really great work. Gray is out there delivering digital services in this space. And I think I was really lucky to be a part of it and to support my friend, Randall. Hutch is different. Hutch is an organization that's kind of like if you think about it, it almost is a way to support entrepreneurs of color who are trying to make their way into the digital service delivery space. Being an advisory board member there has been really interesting because it's shaping how Hutch provides services and what their approach is to how to support these companies.But over the last year, I've convinced the person who's running it, Stephanie, with a couple of other people, to open the door up or crack the door so we could talk directly and support the individual companies. So, it's been really great to be a Hutch advisory member to help shape how Hutch is approaching things.But I've also been a part of, like, many interview processes. I've reviewed a lot of, like, [inaudible 48:01] who want to join the organization. And I've also created personal relationships with many of the people who are part of Hutch. And, you know, like, you know me personally, so you know I run a Day of the Dead party. We'll just party at my house every year.I have a huge amount of affection for Mexican culture and, in general, the approach of how to remember people who are a part of your life. So, this is, like, the perfect way for me to bring people together at my house is to say, like, "Hey, my dad was awesome. What about your family? Who are your people?" What's really nice is that has given me an opportunity to host people at my house.And I've had Hutch company owners at my house the last couple of years and the person who runs Hutch. So, it's a really great community that I look at that is trying to shape the next emergent companies that are helping deliver digital services across the government. And it's really fun to be early on in their career and help them grow. Again, it seems silly, but it's the thing I care a lot about. How do I connect with people and provide the most value that I can? And this is a way I can provide that value to companies that may also go off and provide that value. It's a little bit of an amplifier. So, I'm a huge fan of what we've been able to accomplish and being a part of it in any way, shape, or form.VICTORIA: Well, I think that's a really beautiful way to wrap it up. ROBBIE: Really glad to catch up with you and be a part of this amazing podcast. VICTORIA: Yeah, so much fun. Thank you again so much. It was great to be here with you today. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm.If you have questions or comments, email us at [email protected]. You can find me on thoughtbotsocial@vguido. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. AD:Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us.More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at: [email protected] with any questions.
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Hosts Will Larry and Victoria Guido are joined by Hans Kullberg, Co-Founder and Head of Product at Pathfinder Health. Pathfinder Health is an early-stage startup that provides objective insights into children's developmental health to pediatric clinics. Hans shares his journey, starting with his career on Wall Street, moving through various startup experiences, and finally, his pivotal role at Visa, which was significantly shaped by the tragic loss of his daughter, Aviva. This loss inspired him to focus on helping families get timely and accurate developmental diagnoses for their children.
The episode highlights pediatricians' challenges in monitoring developmental health due to time constraints during appointments and the lack of detailed observation that these brief interactions afford. Hans explains how Pathfinder Health aims to address these challenges by enhancing the collaboration between parents and pediatricians through technology, providing detailed tracking and insights into a child's development outside of clinical visits. This includes innovative approaches like using machine learning to analyze video data of children in their natural environments, helping to pinpoint developmental milestones more accurately.
Hans also discusses the broader implications of early and accurate developmental diagnosis by emphasizing the importance of using data to overcome the limitations of current medical practices. By integrating detailed developmental data into health records, Pathfinder Health hopes to transform pediatric care by being able to allow for earlier interventions for its patients.
Pathfinder Health (https://www.pathfinder.health/)
Follow Pathfinder Health on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/pathfinderhealth-inc/), Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/pathfinderhealth/), YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/@pathfinderhealthapp), TikTok (https://www.tiktok.com/@pathfinder.health), X (https://twitter.com/joinpathfinder), or Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/PathfinderHealthInc).
Follow Hans Kullberg on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/hamidah-nalwoga-78143a255/).
Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/).
Transcript:
WILL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry.
VICTORIA: And I'm your other host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Hans Kullberg, Co-Founder and Head of Product at Pathfinder Health, an early-stage pediatric developmental health tech startup focused on bringing objective insights on children's developmental health to pediatric clinics everywhere. Hans, thank you for joining us.
HANS: Thank you, Will. Thank you, Victoria. It's really awesome to be here.
VICTORIA: Great. Well, I met you at the San Diego Founders Hike at probably 7:30 in the morning on a Friday [laughs] a couple of weeks ago. So, tell me just a little bit more about what do you do for fun around San Diego?
HANS: Yeah, I do a lot of fun. First of all, I'm a dad of four kids, so that keeps me busy, and it keeps my fun time relegated to the windows that I can do it. But I love to start morning surf right out here in Mission Beach in San Diego. I love to cook for a lot of people, house parties, and as well as hunger suppers. And then, I love playing saxophone when I can.
VICTORIA: What's your favorite song to play on the saxophone?
HANS: So, I'm messing around with it right now. I'm not great, but I'm learning Happy Birthday right now.
VICTORIA: That's a great song, and you have a lot of birthdays to celebrate, it sounds like, over there. So, good to have that handy.
HANS: Mm-hmm. Yep.
VICTORIA: Well, awesome. Well, why don't you tell us a little bit more about your background and how it led to Pathfinder Health?
HANS: My background is in data science and economics, and started my career actually on Wall Street, really looking at economic data, things like GDP and inflation, and macroeconomic variables like employment nonfarm payrolls. And I really tried to figure out a way to understand how to predict those at a very high degree of accuracy. That kind of led to my very first startup called, EconoCast, which was fairly successful. And that was exited back in 2013.
Then I did a few other things, some startups that were successful, others that were not. But then I really wanted to kind of chop my teeth into product and really learn product from the inside out at a much bigger company. So, I joined the innovation team at Visa. I was working on Visa Acceptance Cloud, which is really kind of a point-of-sale solution in the cloud. So, if you're familiar with Apple Pay and Google Pay, it was pretty much the mirror image of that for receiving payments and accepting payments. And that really helps a lot of long-tail merchants, if you will, kind of in places like India, and Nigeria, Brazil, et cetera, that are traditionally accepting cash payments to be able to accept credit and debit payments.
However, life took a turn. And while I was at Visa, my third child, Aviva, passed away. And there's, you know, a lot of backstory on that side, but she still doesn't have a diagnosis to this day. It was certainly the hardest part of my life and time of my life for my wife, my family. And I took some time off, really embraced the grieving process, but really tried to figure out what I wanted to do next. And really, that centered around a promise that I made to my daughter was to really try to get parents and families the answers that they deserve to really understand their diagnosis.
So, I talked to a lot of different people in the healthcare community, trying to figure out what I wanted to do with my particular background in data science and technology and building products to be able to kind of marry that with getting parents the answers that they need. And so, that's where I really came in contact with my co-founders at Pathfinder Health to really build what we believe is the most advanced way to really help pediatricians and providers understand how children are developing outside the clinic by collaborating, having parents and pediatricians really collaborate to understand the development across social, emotional, language, cognitive, and movement, all of those things that happen that require observation where pediatricians just have very little time.
And we really kind of package that in a way to give them a snapshot of how they're developing relative to the peer group, to really kind of clarify a lot of these gray areas, if you will, and not take that wait-and-see approach, but rather to make that referral or diagnosis or get them on any kind of therapy that they need as soon as possible. And really, that's the diagnosis that this problem. The meta-problem that we're trying to solve is 25% of all children have some type of developmental delay, yet only 3% get diagnosed before the age of 3. And so, that's, you know, something very near and dear to my heart and something I'm working on every single day. That's how I got to where I am.
WILL: Wow. I am so sorry to hear about your daughter. And I'll just be totally honest: that's one of my biggest fears as a dad. So yeah, I am so sorry to hear that about your daughter. What was that situation like? How long ago was it? And kind of not having to answer, like, where are you at with that?
HANS: My daughter was born in January of 2020. Aviva lived for over ten months, and she passed away here in San Diego in November of 2020. I won't get into the background of it, but the short end of it is she never really had a diagnosis. But she had some anomalies that really created a condition called bradycardia, which is slow heart rate, only intermittently. It happened every couple of months. So, it wasn't really even a daily thing. Doctors didn't have any answers for it. We saw teams of specialists and I'm talking about cardiologists, neurologists, mitochondrial specialists, pulmonologists, every single type of specialist under the sun.
But throughout six different hospitalizations and then the autopsy afterwards, they never figured out what the root cause was. And she had some signs that were different, but, you know, we live in this world where data is abundance. Generative AI is huge, right? We have all these tools and everything else, but yet when it comes to medicine, a lot of times we rely on the human knowledge of the physicians that we see. I'm not saying that they did anything wrong because they did the best they could.
But what really upset me was that, you know, we go through this differential diagnosis of A, B, C, D, and this and the other, and they all strike out. You know, what's the backup plan? And that's where, you know, we should be using a lot more data at the big data level to really understand, you know, these anomalies. And maybe someone out there had something similar that she did or maybe a doctor in New York, or Boston, or Atlanta, or Miami somewhere would have known what to do. Unfortunately, that wasn't the case.
And really, that set me off my journey, really trying to understand that problem, in particular. There's a lot of things that kind of stand in the way from real AI being used in medicine. Of course, radiology is one exception. But when it comes down to interoperability of electronic health records as well as HIPAA, and privacy, and all the data silos they're in, Google's tried at this for a while to get to a place where you can have more precise type of data from a diagnostic perspective. Similar to the way that Facebook, and Amazon, and the Googles of the world know precisely how likely you are to click a button, I think medicine should be moving in that form and fashion. And so, yeah, that's really where I came across this journey.
And the grieving process that's a whole 'nother subject as well, but I'm a very big believer in embracing that. Each of us took a year off and really just made sure that we were taking a lot of self-care and healing. And I went to therapy for the first time in my life, did a lot of writing and a lot of other therapeutic activities, including writing children's books. So, I'm a children's book author. And that's kind of what led me to finding out what I wanted to do on a day-in, day-out basis to help parents get the answers they need, knowing that, you know, mom and dad play a very big role in this, those first five years of life which, in my opinion, are the most critical and crucial and also the most precious years of your life.
VICTORIA: You know, I really admire how you took such a painful moment and turned it into, how do I solve this problem for other people and really build community off of that as well? I don't have kids myself, but I have a niece and nephew who's two and four now. And I remember watching my sister-in-law try to keep track of all of the things that are happening for her child in the first year of their life, and it's not easy. And how do you identify if something has gone wrong? And I'm curious, like, what you learned from that process, or if you've learned anything about that process that's shifted your direction with Pathfinder.
HANS: I mean, the biggest takeaway from my own personal experience is knowing that parents can play a very proactive role, an important role in the care for their child. And so, when you look at the pediatric visit, and, Will, you probably can relate to this, you know, for 15 minutes, you know, they're checking your eyes, ears, throat, heart, giving you your vaccines, et cetera. And there's a lot of different things they have to do to check off on their task list.
But yeah, when it comes down to developmental health, we're talking about social, emotional cues, movement, cognitive, and language; it really requires observation. And they have very little time for that. Plus, you know, kids never [inaudible 08:49] themselves. There's well-child visits as well. It sort of leads to a lot of these gray areas. You know, on average, a pediatrician sees about 20 to 24 different kiddos a day, which is quite a heavy burden. They're definitely the most overworked and underpaid specialists across the whole healthcare system.
But when you think about it, you know, what they do after the well-child visits is they give usually mom or dad a two-page handout of "This is..." you know, "Your child is two years old, and here's what you can do." A lot of times those handouts just, you know, get lost, and they're very not personalized.
So, what we're doing we're a team of developmental-behavioral pediatricians, as well as early childhood specialist. We're talking about occupational therapists, physical therapists, child psychologists, and speech therapists. We're really combining all our interdisciplinary skills as well as machine learning experts on our team to be able to give parents the type of knowledge that's packaged in a way, on a parent level, that they really can understand how to track, monitor their child's growth and development. But also, if they're falling behind, or even if they're ahead, be able to enhance their development through daily activities that are tailored and customized to each individual's unique developmental trajectory.
And so, we've come up with what's called developmental biomarkers, similar to what you know as height and weight charts, to really measure and monitor a child's progress versus peers. On the physical side, we're doing that across all of those developmental domains and being able to make those conversations, and insights, and visits with the doctor a lot more comprehensive in scope, including video-based data, where we kind of isolate the milestones. We call it smart detection, really show the parents what those milestones are happening.
Parents know a lot about walking, talking, sitting, rolling over, but there's over 400 milestones that happen in the first five years of life. And so, being able to kind of understand pincer grip, you know, picking up a cheerio or looking when you call their name those are really big milestones that are very significant when it comes to determining where that child stands relative to their peers. So, yeah, that's a little how it works at a high level.
WILL: Yeah. Wow. I want to go back and tell you this just so that...I try to whenever I think of something, especially positive, I just try to tell people. And so, like, your inspiration of how you dealt with your child's passing away and everything...because I think the statistics and what I've heard is most people hit a downward spiral. Most marriages don't make it. So, it's very inspiring to hear that you grieved and you worked through the process. So, I just want you to know that, like, that's super, even for me, that's super inspiring to know that that is even possible in that situation. So, I just want you to know that.
HANS: Yeah. And I'm glad that you brought up that point. You're absolutely correct. I think over 50% of couples do get divorced after a death of a child. And a lot of times, it's not the event itself. Certainly, losing a child is very, very painful. But the cause of that separation is really the differences in the way that each other grieve, you know, the spouses grieve. And that's something that, honestly, you don't learn until you're going through it.
And so, what we did was, just like other things in our life, we were very intentional about it and really sought out as much help and support through books. Books were fantastic, also grieving groups. There's a lot of great different grieving groups out there to really understand that, hey, you're not necessarily alone. Certainly, the pain of losing a child is definitely, in my opinion, the hardest thing that anyone can go through. But in terms of being able to empathize and even commiserate, but even to hear other people's stories, you start to learn, you know, what that journey looks like five years, ten years, 20 years down the road.
But you also, you know, one of the things that I say is there's no right way to grieve at all. You can't tell someone how to grieve. But there is a wrong way to grieve. And I know that sounds like an oxymoron. But the wrong way to grieve is not doing it at all. And that's usually where we saw a lot of people kind of turn to negative addiction, or self-inflicted behaviors, or a lot of other things where they try to bottle it up, put it away, lock it in the closet and not think about it, you know, maybe bury their heads in work or any other kinds of addictions.
That's something we learned very, very early on that we try to be conscientious of and try to really steer clear from. But, again, it's a very individually unique path, and I'm definitely not an expert at all, but have certainly learned, you know, tenfold what I didn't know about grief beforehand. And so, you really don't know grief until you actually go through it.
In terms of being able to kind of parlay that into motivation to help others...and really, for me, that's my North star is really helping others, if that's helping detect diagnosis, or even, you know, just smiling to the person on the street, you know, that's what really gives me a lot of fulfillment. And so, in terms of that motivation, where does that come from, and how do you actually take that grief and transcend that into something productive like that?
The only thing I can actually say to all the parents that are listening out there it's akin to when you hold your firstborn, especially when you become a new parent. And you have that magical feeling where you're holding that small, little infant in your arms. And you have this great burden of responsibility as well. And you start thinking to yourself, man, now it's not just my life that I'm in charge of. I'm in charge of this little human being's life, who you have to do everything for them.
And so, that inspiration to be the better parent or better person that you feel as a new parent is only correlated, I would describe, to actually losing a child where that same feeling is, I would say, magnified times 3. And that's, you know, for me, I know my daughter's looking down on us, and I know that she's behind a lot of things that I'm doing, but I'm certainly inspired in a whole 'nother way apart from being just a parent.
WILL: Yeah, definitely. You said something that really caught my attention. Like, it was around how when you're holding your child, like, you're responsible for your child. I have a background in sports medicine, spent four years doing it. I still have no idea a lot of medical history when it comes to a kid. I feel like majority of the items that you're supposed to be looking for or even thinking about is totally different with a kid.
I don't know how to say this, but, like, the healthcare, the more that I have my kids, I'm seeing that there's different sides of healthcare. So, we moved from North Carolina. Our first pediatrician we loved. Every time we had an appointment, probably spent 30 to 40 minutes just talking us through, hanging out with our kids, asking questions. You know, they always gave us this list beforehand to say, "Hey, look out for these things. When you come in the office, we're going to ask you, 'Have you noticed it, or how are they doing with that?'"
And then, we moved to South Florida, and it's been totally different. Totally different. We had to fire one pediatrician because it wasn't the same care. The pediatrician we're at now is a lot better, but it's nowhere near what North Carolina was. And so, there's a lot of times that we're questioning ourselves. It's like, what does the development of our kid look like?
My oldest he had a tongue tie where he couldn't touch the top of his mouth, and we didn't know how important that was to take care of. We finally got it taken care of, but he is delayed in speech because he couldn't touch the top of his mouth. So, whenever I saw that we were going to have this podcast interview, I was just so excited because this is a huge issue. As a parent of three, this is a huge issue because you just don't know. And even when I didn't have kids, the knowledge that I had of even being a parent, yeah, I didn't know anything [laughs], and it's just learning on the go. So, everything you're doing is just speaking to me, and you are helping people. It's needed out there. So, I am so excited that you're doing it.
HANS: That warms my heart. Thank you, Will, for saying that because I didn't realize that you're actually from North Carolina. I'm from North Carolina myself from a little town called Gastonia. But when it comes to, you know, developmental health, it is the biggest gray area in all of pediatrics. And we know that pediatricians just don't have the time. That's a very big burden.
In addition, when it comes to specialists, we're talking about, you know, autism, for instance. You know, they have to be diagnosed through developmental-behavioral pediatricians or a child psychologist, and there's just a very big dearth of them. There's long waiting lines. It could be 12 to 18 months to actually get in front of them and get that evaluation, and then another 6 to 9 months to actually get therapy. And by that time, there's a lot of time lost, which is absolutely precious when it comes to the child.
90% of your child's brain, actually, develops by the time they're three years old. Another stat that parents actually don't know is that there's centers called Early Intervention Service Centers across the U.S. There's over 4,000. Their specific remit, their mandate is actually to go out and find children in their community, in the region, that do have developmental delay. And, you know, it's a very labor-intensive process to do that. I've actually done it here with my fourth child here in San Diego.
They send out two therapists. They come in, do an evaluation, talk to the parent, see how they're doing, jot down some notes, you know, it's at least an hour of their time, driving included, but it's a very kind of manually intensive process. And what we can do is really be able to preempt that and really give parents the fidelity and advocacy to speak on behalf of their child. And I would say that's the number one thing that our parents say is they thought there was a concern. They knew there was some kind of gray area.
And we know that there's a lot of stigma and denial around delays. What we're trying to do is actually lower that barrier so they have the wherewithal to actually have that conversation with their pediatrician. And simply to ask that question from a clinical-based evidence perspective, you know, that could do wonders, you know. If a kid's not speaking by the time they're two years old, if they're not saying a word, that's a big red flag. And a lot of the de facto status quo, a pediatrician will say, "Well, let's just wait till the next visit because every single child develops uniquely," which they do. But their next visit is at three years old, 12 months later. And that's time that's lost in that process.
Apart from the evaluation, they can actually do at-home interventions. There are a lot of different activities and modules that we have for parents to actually be more proactive in enhancing that child's development along the way. And so, yeah, at the end of the day, we're committed to making sure parents have those tools and knowledge that's necessary.
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VICTORIA: As a head of product, how do you approach the design for the app you're building given just how complex it is? And you said there's 400 milestones in the first 5 years to track. How do you prioritize which one to do first?
[chuckles]
HANS: Yeah, that's a good question. And now I get into the nitty-gritty. But there's certainly been a lot of focus, and it really starts with the users, and so that's both parents as well as pediatricians. And so, personally, I've visited, even in six months, I've visited over 70 different pediatric clinics here in Southern California as well as New York and Washington State, you know, really talking to pediatricians and really understanding what would actually help, you know, make it a lot more useful and helpful for them in their own day to day.
You know, the biggest capacity constraint is really their time crunch. And so, can you get me those answers immediately? And they tell us they don't want to go to some other system. So, we've integrated directly into almost a hundred different EHRs (Electronic Health Records) across the board to the point where parents can actually just search for their pediatrician on our app and then be able to send their data directly to the pediatrician. Because when it comes down to trust, in healthcare, it's all about trust. Parents really trust the pediatrician the most at the end of the day, and so getting them on board and making sure that they're the biggest advocates for our platform will speak a lot more than just having our app in the App Store, which it is.
But in terms of the parent's side, we want them to have a really great and engaging experience where they're getting a lot of joy. We could talk about this concept called burst of joy from watching their child grow and develop. And so, there's a fine line between creating too much anxiety versus giving more information. And when it comes to development [chuckles], there's a very fine line on that. But being able to kind of track those milestones on a continuous basis, not just that point in time, you know, that one time, you know, every three, six months that they're in the doctor's office, but even on a weekly basis, kind of seeing that growth that actually happens organically on a day-to-day basis is a huge part of the parent experience.
Being able to kind of look and see what that is, why it's important, and oh, by the way, if the child's not doing that, here's some activities that you can do to really help them excel and get to the next level, you know, that's the type of thought process. And if you do have concerns, here's resources. We put together these 4,000 early intervention centers, where on the web, you have to go to each individual website. We basically just took all the information and just put it right there in one place where it's just a zip code lookup functionality.
And so, a lot of those types of approaches is really great. I think, in the future, being able to connect directly with therapists and providers might be another step because we know that the gaps in care is really one of the most critical problem. Right now, we're trying to solve that through that parent-led approach. But even reducing that 6 to 9 months down to 1 or 2 weeks, I think, that's actually a possibility.
VICTORIA: I love how you described it as what you're going for is a burst of joy and that you want to focus on having it be a joyful experience for parents. And it should be because I have also seen the anxiety part and how anxiety-inducing it can be when you're trying to keep track of all these different milestones. And, like you said, you have a handout from your doctor, or maybe you're looking up things on TikTok or Instagram [laughs]. How do you work those emotions into your design? Can you say a little bit more about that?
HANS: Yeah. So, for example, after completing an activity...so, we have all these daily activities that you can do. We start the app. We've got inspired from Headspace in terms of what they ask you to do. Here's 2 or 3 things that you can do with your child. We start with an activity, and it takes nothing more than items lying around in your home.
We believe in this concept of serve and return approach when it comes to that parent-child interaction. And so, you have those materials. You have the 10, 15 minutes that you have with your child. You're asking yourself, like, "What can I actually do to really stimulate development?" We want to meet them where they are. So, we have even at bath time, or on the playground, or in a car ride, or while you're doing laundry, sorting socks, right? Any place in time could actually have that really great approach.
And then, after completion of the activity, we have this kind of pop-up that it's almost like an accomplishment, like, we did it as a joint team, as a joint effort, with a little celebration and kind of that approach. And then, also, when you're checking off milestones, and when you check off frequently on our app, there's little hearts that kind of come out of the button to celebrate this little...we call them smilestones, but it's a small part of that celebration that happens day in, day out.
VICTORIA: I'm definitely going to say smilestones to my team next week. That's how we're going to rebrand our milestones as as well. I love it.
HANS: Yeah. I don't think that's copyrighted, so go ahead. Take it away.
WILL: What is your, I'll use that, smilestone for the next six months or, you know, next year? What's in the future? I saw on your website you're incorporating some AI into it. So, can you talk about that and anything else that you have coming up?
HANS: Yeah. So, one of the places where we're really, you know, focusing on is really getting objective about the data. So, we want to take a lot of the subjectivity, a lot of the guesswork, a lot of the recall bias, even misinterpretation of milestones, as well as language barriers of milestones. And so, just really being able to not just have the parent kind of fill out, you know, the checklist, but also, being able to incorporate the videos component as well. And so, being able to upload any kind of video of the child at the dinner table, playing with friends in the playground, playing at home in the living room. Parents have tons of these videos, right?
We're able to kind of spot and detect where those milestones are actually taking place. And so, we can isolate that three to five seconds of, here's where their child's doing the pincer grip, which is basically picking up a cheerio between your forefinger and thumb, and really being able to kind of give that validation and confirmation to the parents so they can actually say, "Oh, wow, my child actually did this new thing that I actually didn't even know about."
But on top of that, being able to turn that into a highlight reel, you know, similar to like SportsCenter highlight reel. Like, you're taking all of those different clips and turn that into maybe a 60-second highlight reel of everything that happened that transpired in between the last visit. So, when you talk about going from, like, a 12-month visit to an 18-month visit, here's all the things, in 60 seconds, that the kid's been doing to give a lot more comprehensive evaluation for their pediatrician to make better decisions at the end of the day.
Again, we are clinical decision support. We're not making the diagnosis ourselves. We leave that to the providers. But what we believe in our ethos is really giving all that information and packaging it up so that those decisions can be much better made at the end of the day. So, that's one use case of AI.
But there's still a human element to it right now, but we want to be able to kind of transpire that to a fully autonomous computer vision, which, when you look at generative AI, understanding videos and being able to detect that when you think about all of the different angles, shapes, lighting, et cetera, it's the, I would say, the last frontier of being able to kind of get data insights out of videos itself. It's very easy to go from having a text prompt and generating a video from it. It's much harder to take a video and spitting back out what we have as milestones. So, that's one part.
And the other is developmental biomarkers which is another...what we think is groundbreaking in the pediatric space.
VICTORIA: Can you explain what developmental biomarker is?
HANS: Yeah. So, it's a concept similar to what we know as the height and weight chart. And when I first became a parent, a lot of times you're speaking with other new parents, and you are, you know, on the playground, right? And they're saying that "Hey, my kid is on the 90th percentile in height or weight," or "Hey, they're 80th percentile on head circumference," because that's literally, like, as a new parent, like, that's the only basis you have other than their sleep habits, which, Will, I know you can probably attest to most parents track a lot.
But similar to that, like, in terms of, you know, how developmental tracking is done right now, the status quo is using developmental screeners. And so, that's, again, point in time, static approach while you're in the well-child visit. But the problem with developmental screeners is it has what's called a low sensitivity and specificity in terms of really over-detecting or over-failing basically one side of the distribution. So, it's typically 40% to 50% of kids would fail a screener when, in reality it should be around 20 to 25.
To really get more granular and very objective about understanding a child's developmental trend, one has to kind of be able to, we believe, understand both the right and the left side of the distribution and being able to understand, hey, is this child actually tracking ahead of the curve or behind the curve relative to everyone else?
And so, we've developed an algorithm. It's fairly complex, but it uses a lot of the underlying data sets that we have to kind of give a much more high-fidelity picture of, hey, your child's in the 60th to 65th percentile. At the end of the day, we want to be able to identify delays. And so, anything below 20% or so, you know, parents should be more informed about that and looking at it on a domain-by-domain specific level.
So, it's very common for a kid to be accelerated on 3 of the four domains, but maybe they're behind on speech. And so, what does the doctor do with that? If they're at 15th percentile in speech, they can then come in the clinic and say, "Hey, I see the screening results, but I also see this Pathfinder report. Let's spend the next 5 to 10 minutes actually seeing how you verbalize and how you're able to speak and express yourself." So, that's really what we're talking about when it comes to developmental biomarkers.
VICTORIA: Gotcha. Okay. Yeah. I think I knew what you were referring to, but I wanted to make sure [laughs], but that makes sense. So, it's like whatever the data that helps the parent identify where there might be an area that some intervention or some more time might need to be taken to help move them forward.
HANS: It is on a longitudinal basis, which, if you're in healthcare, you know longitudinal trend. Really understanding what that looks like is hugely important versus point in time. And so, we're able to see it not just at the sixth month and nine month, but every day in between as well. And we believe, you know, the early results are kind of showing that we're able to even preempt what those potential red flags will look like, or a failed screening result will look like at an earlier rate as well.
VICTORIA: That's really interesting. I'm curious if you have other statistics like that or some results from the first year, almost two years of data that you have now, on how people are interacting with the app. And what kind of outcomes are you getting?
HANS: Yeah, as I said, you know, the biggest outcome is really being able to give parents a really highly objective look at how their children are developing, and so giving them the level of advocacy to speak on the child's behalf with clinical evidence. If you look at our testimonials, that's probably the number one thing. We have different personas for different types of moms.
But there's some moms that are the Nervous Nellies, the ones that are concerned about every single cut, scrape, and bruise. There's also the Inkling Ingrids, the ones that think there might be something there, but they're not necessarily sure. But then there's also the Ambitious Amandas, these types of moms that want to put their kids in every single type of advanced activity, right? Music classes, Legos, et cetera. And then, the Brand New Brendas, the ones that are brand new to parenting and want to know, learn, explore, and track the child's development.
So yeah, there's different things for different types of personas that we have. By and large, it's really giving that information in a very parent-friendly way so it's not overwhelming them with too much anxiety or, you know, going over their heads as a lot of times medical jargon does as well.
VICTORIA: Wow. That's great. Thank you for sharing that. And I wonder, actually, Hans, I wanted to ask you a question about bias and about bias in AI and in health tech. And how do you approach that in Pathfinder and making sure that everyone's getting equitable health incomes and recommendations within the app?
HANS: Yeah, bias and accessibility are two big topics that we think a lot about, you know, first of all, on the underlying data bias, you know, that could present itself. Right now, our app is available on App Store and Play Store. We have over 50,000 parents, you know, still small but growing in about 120 different countries, mainly English-speaking ones, because right now the app is completely in English. That's about to change. We're about to go multilingual, starting with Spanish, which is definitely the biggest request.
But so, when it comes to, like, being able to compare across different groups and subsets, you know, we do believe we have a fairly heterogeneous group. Only about 50% of our users are actually here in the U.S. In terms of the actual milestones themselves, there could be, you know, some differences in cultures. Something like "Eats with a fork" is a milestone that happens, I think, around two or three years old. You know, in cultures like India, for instance, they usually eat with their hands for a lot of time. So, that would be obviously a difference. That milestone wouldn't necessarily apply as much.
But then when you talk about accessibility, one of the things that we screen for in our standard screening that we do have, and I forgot to mention this earlier up front, we almost have, like, a four-legged stool, if you will, in terms of the underlying data that we capture. One is standard screeners because that is status quo. That is reimbursed on the pediatrician's side. And the biggest value prop to pediatricians to adopt our platform is, hey, we can help you get towards 100% developmental screen adherence, which right now it's only about 60 or even less than 50% across the board. So, that's a reimbursable event. So, that's layer 1.
Layer 2 is parent concerns, caption that in a good, valid way, and then continuous milestone tracking. And then, finally, the videos as well. So, certainly, some parents don't submit videos for privacy reasons, which is okay. We still have all of the other 3. So, going back to social determinants of health and health equity, that's one of the things that we screen for as well, knowing that the more vulnerable populations and minorities, lower socioeconomic classes, actually do have a higher prevalence of delays. And so, we want to be able to be accessible to them as much as we can but also, raise those things to the surface when it comes to getting those answers to pediatricians.
There's another big movement happening called Adverse Childhood Experiences screeners (ACEs) that really looks at, you know, how the child's been developing and what their background, their environment actually looks like. So, looking at those questions of, is that child being raised in an environment of neglect, or abuse, or a broken home, or drug addictions in the home? Those can really have an effect, not just on the early part of life, but even later in life when you talk about physical as well as mental well-being. And so, just having that awareness and that insight into how that child's been developing is really important on the background side.
And so, at the end of the day, when we're talking about who actually holds the bag, if you will, in terms of this big gap that we're trying to solve, at the end of the day, it's really the government. If the child does have a delay that doesn't get addressed at an early age, doesn't get, you know, therapy, a lot of times, it leads on to run-on consequences, whether that's mental issues or maybe not being able to be self-sufficient, independent, job seeking, tax-paying, delinquencies. There's a lot of different ramifications from things that happen at a very early age.
That's where we believe in partnership with Medicaid through clinics like Federal Qualified Health Centers that focus on the Medicaid population, which 38% of all kids fall under, those are ideal partners for us. It's a longer, harder slog and a long road. But we believe there's a lot that we can offer at that level as well as more ACO and value-based payer type of model.
VICTORIA: Oh, wonderful. Well, thank you so much, Hans, for coming on and sharing your story with us. Do you have anything that you would like to promote?
HANS: I know we didn't get a chance to speak about it, but the children's book I've written very near and dear to my heart is called Baby Aviva, Orangutan Diva. You can get that out on Amazon, anywhere. But it's A-V-I-V-A. If you're a parent and if you have a kid under the age of five, feel free to check out our app called Pathfinder Health. And Pathfinder is just one word on the App Store and Play Store. But thank you, Will, and thank you, Victoria.
WILL: Thank you. It was great talking to you. And I'm going to go download the app.
HANS: Absolutely. Thanks so much. And I really appreciate it.
WILL: You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at [email protected]. You can find me on Twitter @will23larry.
VICTORIA: And you can find me on X or Twitter [laughs] @victori_ousg or on Mastodon @thoughtbotsocial@vguido.
This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
Thanks for listening. See you next time.
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