APEX Express – 4. 3.25 – Coming Up Next

3 apr · KPFA - APEX Express

00:42:16

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.
Tonight on APEX Express join host Miko Lee as she talks with Asian American theatre artists with works coming up soon. Miko talks with Sunhui Chang and Joan Osato about their world premiere at the Magic Theatre. She speaks with Ethnotech’s Nancy Wang and Robert Kikuchi-Yngojo and finally we hear from playwright Jiehae Park on the world premiere of the Aves at Berkeley Rep. Though we may be immersed in a complicated, challenging and very disturbing world, as Grace Lee Boggs said, “A people exercising their creativity in the face of devastation is one of the greatest contributions to humankind.”

Our Guests discussed:
April 2-20, 2025 Magic Theatre The Boiling, a tale of american nihilism tickets, wheelchair accessible
Joan Osato
SFFILM Cedar Road Iyagi Grant Applications: sffilm.org/artist-development
Ethnohtec
May 22 Ethnohtec
https://sfpl.org/events/2025/05/22/panel-strong-bamboo-3-part-1
Strong Like Bamboo
SF Library Koret Auditorium Free
https://sfpl.org/events/2025/05/25/performance-strong-bamboo-3-part-2

Coming Up Next Transcript

Opening: [00:00:00] Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express.

Ayame Keane-Lee: [00:00:34] Tonight on APEX Express join host Miko Lee as she talks with Asian American theatre artists with works coming up soon. Miko talks with Sunhui Chang and Joan Osato about their world premiere of the boiling at the Magic Theatre. She speaks with Eth-Noh-Tec’s Nancy Wang and Robert Kikuchi-Yngojo and finally we hear from playwright Jiehae Park on the world premiere of the aves at Berkeley Rep. Though we may be immersed in a complicated, challenging and very disturbing world, as Grace Lee Boggs said, “A people exercising their creativity in the face of devastation is one of the greatest contributions to humankind.” So join us on APEX Express as we join some creative conversations.

Miko Lee: [00:01:17] Tonight on Apex Express, we have the collaborators behind Magic Theater and Campo Santo’s, world Premier of the boiling: a tale of American nihilism. Welcome playwright Sunhui Chang and video artist Joan Osato.

Joan Osato: [00:01:30] Thank you for having us on, Miko.

Miko Lee: [00:01:33] Yes. First I’m gonna start for each of you with a personal question, which is an adaptation from the amazing Chinaka Hodges. And my question for each of you, and let’s start with Joan first, is who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?

Joan Osato: [00:01:49] I consider myself a child of immigrants in this country. My lineage Japanese, Japanese American by way of Hawai’i a lot of my lineage is carried by that diaspora, but also by my history at Youth Speaks for a couple of decades. And so I consider that my family also and Camp Santo.

Miko Lee: [00:02:12] Yay. Love that. And then Joan, what legacy do you carry with you?

Joan Osato: [00:02:17] A legacy of resilience and I know how to farm. I like to think of myself as a gardener and a great farmer. so that’s the legacy I carry with me.

Miko Lee: [00:02:29] Thank you so much, Joan. Sunhui, what about you? Who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?

Sunhui Chang: [00:02:36] Well, I’m part of the diaspora, the Korean American diaspora that happened in the seventies. My family immigrated to the island of Guam in 1976, as part of developing the island of Guam. As, you know, the Korean diaspora at that time in the seventies, we were kind of shipped around the world a little bit, for our labor. There’s a huge Korean population of workers that also went to West Germany and other places, Guam is not as well known, but it was definitely part of that. So in 76, our family landed on the island of Guam.

Miko Lee: [00:03:11] Wow, that’s so interesting. And then what about what legacy you carry with you?

Sunhui Chang: [00:03:16] I think my legacy I have to say is that definitely of the immigrant working class, you know, as with a Korean diaspora, there’s some things of, like the East Coast Koreans, as you may know, have a different history of being much more educated whereas kind of the west coast and the Korean diaspora during the seventies towards islands like Guam, we were much more working class. So that is my legacy. I have working class roots that, I never seem to be able to get away from and I don’t want to.

Joan Osato: [00:03:47] Shoot. That’s the same for me too, my working class roots.

Miko Lee: [00:03:51] So it sounds like you two have some commonalities there and that seem to have flowed over into the creation of this play. Sunhui can you talk about an overview of this brand New World premier, the boiling.

Sunhui Chang: [00:04:05] Simply put, it’s a story of a tracker and a tracer, a government team that was formed to track and trace down carriers of the virus called the Boiling. and it actually. starts out as a chase, but what we really dig into is more about, identity, home, what it means to be, what is home and what it means to be, at home, and also, about redemption, you know, through our lives, you know? So it’s multi-layered, so it’s hard to kind of explain in a log line. but it’s a chase story that kind of delves into the characters.

Miko Lee: [00:04:40] And I understand this was inspired by a real news story. Can you tell us about that real news story?

Sunhui Chang: [00:04:46] Oh, yeah. the genesis of this we have to kind of go back to the beginning of the pandemic back to December, 2019. I had just finished a gallery installation in San Francisco and then at the end of that I flew back to Seattle. Now at that period of time, there was this talk that there’s this virus that’s in China. That might affect us, we’re not quite certain, but it could be something that could lead to a global pandemic, but we didn’t quite know at that time. But then when I landed in Seattle, March 17th, 2020 was the date that Governor j Insley shut down the state of Washington. So that is a big take ’cause, As you know, we all hunkered down at that point. And then in one of the hunkering down is of course, I was watching the news and one of the news story, happened to come across where they were talking about a Econo Lodge motel that the state of Washington had purchased to turn into a quarantine motel, a voluntary quarantine motel where people who, felt that they were infected could check themselves in, to be evaluated. So the story goes that two people had actually checked into this motel totally voluntarily, but one of them the morning after. And this is captured, with a surveillance video. We actually see this one person walking out of their room at the motel. We see them walk across the street to a gas station with a market. Now the surveillance actually then switches over to the gas station surveillance, which shows him walking to the gas mart, walking inside, making a purchase, and then actually walking out. And then we see another footage of the surveillance that’s going from the outside surveillance of the store. We actually see him, walk towards the bus stop, get on a bus. And then just the bus leaves and that is it. And the news story ends with that. They had no idea where this person drifted off to. and for me it just, it had this weird, eerie fascination that just grabbed me. and remember at that time, Seattle was such a hotbed for Covid. It was where the nursing home happened, where so many of the elderly had passed on, and we didn’t even wanna secondhand touch a surface, so there was a real heightened sense of alarm that was happening. So seeing this story of this potential infected person just drifting off. And then what made it eerie was that I wanted to see what followed up. So for days after I kept watching the news, what is the follow up? What happened? It was never brought on again. Never. Another mention I. and for me that actually made it even more eerie. So it really sat with me, to the point where I had to actually just write down the first words of my, the first line of my story, the boiling. And the first line was, “Carrier X stepped out of the tightness of his room and breathed deeply the soft drizzle of the Pacific Northwest to cool his body from the growing fever.” So those were the first words that I wrote. and then it was just kind of off to the races ’cause the way I write Miko is that I’m very much organic. I kind of set a story and then I become a vessel of the story. I don’t come to the story with agendas or anything of that nature. After the first sentence, it just kind of took a life of its own. So that’s it.

Miko Lee: [00:08:18] That is amazing. I did not hear that story. and the real news story. That is wild. That would’ve sat with me too. Joan, had you heard of that story before being brought onto this project?

Joan Osato: [00:08:29] Well, when we did a reading during the pandemic. I did hear parts of that story, but I think it’s also a story that a lot of us can relate to, because like here in the Bay Area, of course, we also experienced severe lockdown. Whereas in other parts of the country, I think that the type of lockdown, although being, you know, trying to be really safe for people also induces this sense of isolation and paranoia. And so wanting to get information about who’s getting affected and like, where’s it happening? I think that was all like kind of a mini obsession of like. Everyone who experienced the pandemic, you know what I mean?

Miko Lee: [00:09:10] How do you think that pandemic has had an impact on theater and on audiences?

Joan Osato: [00:09:16] Well on the most basic levels, you know, like what theaters are grappling with, just in terms of coming out of and recovering from pandemic, I think everybody understands that, you know, theater in general is struggling because of the changes that happened in terms of, Perhaps what people place importance on the isolation that we went through, the kind of, paranoia about being in groups of people and in space and in community together. And so, that affects, you know, theaters and you can, you can see that since the pandemic some have closed. But I also think that, the effects are also that, groups like The Magic or Campo Santo during the Pandemic, we never stopped working and we just figured out innovative ways to, you know, support artists, do radio plays, do, amalgamations of like filming. And so a lot of us became like very, very adept at different types of media that are theatrically based, like Sunhui’s play, but that we had to carry out, like online or, you know, through other types of media.

Sunhui Chang: [00:10:30] I just wanted to add on that is that, the pandemic, you know, there there was definitely things that really affected us as humans in such a negative way, but what I also found admiring was, with Joan and Camp Santo and the artists and trying to find creative ways of, still letting, having an outlet. it really was that the story of the boiling would not have taken place if artists such as Joan and Camp Santo. If they didn’t, if they weren’t able to pivot and make these kind of online transitions at the moment, such as doing readings and such, cause that’s how the story was first brought about. So, in many ways it was hard. But also I do appreciate these artists who have been able to kind of keep going and didn’t shut down and kept letting the creative creativity somehow flow. I so appreciated that.

Joan Osato: [00:11:20] Yeah, it was definitely a beautiful thing. And then, you know, Miko, throughout the pandemic, you know, we would have like online viewings of our archives or we would sit with audience members, who were joining us and basically hang out for like three, four hours online.
So trying to create the space not only to kind of generate support for artists who are. Completely outta work, but also to, just connect us even though we were. You know, obviously under these conditions where we couldn’t see each other in person and it wouldn’t have been advisable for us to even try to gather, you know, because, I consider us, you know, in-inside of our community extremely vulnerable. So, you know, just grappling with that tension, was really hard.

Miko Lee: [00:12:09] Yeah. And I kind of hear both of you saying that in those really tough times, there was this push to get more creative, to find more ways of reaching people and, and to look at ways that we can, um, innovate given that, and I’m wondering, given our current political climate where things are changing every hour now. I mean, the first Trump administration, it was kind of every week and now it feels like every hour a new kind of devastating thing is happening. I’m wondering how you both think theater can be used as a tool for social change.

Sunhui Chang: [00:12:41] For me Theater and, and really the arts, what I do love about it, is this really, and I kind of touch upon it with the story and such, and it really hit me during, COVID, during the pandemic, is that it’s really for me, what it does is listening. I know as artists, we love telling our story. We love telling what we see, our interpretations and things like that. but I think what I have really come about with the arts is the fact that I like the other side of it is the listening part, for me with my collaborators, that I have to listen. You know, it’s not about just me talking, but just listening. So for me, the theater aspect of it and the art aspect of it is that I hope that, as we go through these tough times, what it really has us doing is listening to each other more. One of the things that I really feel in that way and appreciative of listening is the fact that without listeners, there’s no storytelling. Listening is really the foundation of our humanity. You know, I mean, just talking really gets us nowhere. What really makes us move forward collectively is listening.

Joan Osato: [00:13:50] Mm, Sunhui heard that. Yes, I heard that. [laughs] As far as theater and kind of responding to the moment. I think, you know, the type of theater that we embody is always speaking to politics is always speaking to, you know, the culture of the moment and especially it’s speaking, because a lot of Campo and the Magic’s work is like based inside of, theater companies that live, work, breathe, are about by and for the communities, like in the Bay Area right. So there’s just no way of separating the kind of politics from what happens like inside of these plays. For the boiling in particular though, I think there’s a lot of stuff that, that people can think about and here inside the play that will resonate with them. One, we’re, we’re talking about a hypothetical, but it’s not really a hypothetical situation about a pandemic, a very, harmful, very urgent, current conditions. You know, when there’s no CDC to have, get your information from when there’s no public health that’s functioning in this country, we can, we can see what happened during the last pandemic and just make that comparison and draw those comparisons, you know, what would happen in the next one. Right. also that, you know, to me and Sunhui, you can totally. speak to this, but to me, Carrier X, the person that represents is this kind of violence and nihilism that exists inside of the, you know, the current, you know, psyche or administration right at this moment. this real like. It’s definitely violent to the point of not caring whether people live or die and so I, you know, I think that’s very striking about the play and it happening right now as premiering it right now, because I think people can draw a lot of parallels between. Like this personality, this complete disorder that seems to be going on, like not only in American politic, but amongst the large population in America itself. You know what I mean? That kind of disregard.

Miko Lee: [00:16:18] Joan, that is so interesting. I wonder if you both can talk a little bit more about Patient X as this kind of figure of narcissism and selfishness that we’re seeing that’s happening in our broader politics right now.

Sunhui Chang: [00:16:31] Yeah, Carrier X, he does, you know, he does kind of represent this nihilism of American nihilism, which to me it’s really historical and cultural. we could go all the way back to the nihilism of manifest destiny, feeling like we have something to do that it was even, maybe. God’s order, you know, a higher order that was given to us.
And we have to take on this task and finish the task at no matter what cost, right? By any means necessary in a way. and that nihilism for me, I. historical, but when I see it currently that happens now, is that I see nihilism in the fact that people want to cut off Medicaid, Medicare, these social programs that are not just help people actually are crucial and it’s really, it’s a survival. So for me, when I see that kind of disregard, yes, it’s not this overt violent nihilism, but I do find it to be so nihilistic in the damage that it does to all of us, you know? And I do find That this nihilistic violence, there’s two flip side to it. The people who are directly affected, and harmed by it, but also the people who carry it are out, who carry out these acts of nihilism they do get damaged as well. So for me, so yeah, the nihilism, it’s taken on a different life, but. It’s a part of America and it seems to continuously carry forward through our days.

Miko Lee: [00:18:00] And Sunhui with the intentional characters, the lead being Korean American adoptee, and, the detective being a black woman, and then carrier X being white. Share with me a little bit about the racial element and your intention behind making those characters of those, ethnic backgrounds.

Sunhui Chang: [00:18:20] You know, there was no intention, as I said, I just write very organically. So there was never this thought of, oh, here’s the three characters. One’s gonna be a Korean adoptee, one’s gonna be a black homicide detective, and another’s gonna be a white carrier. It was never that I. It’s hard for me to explain the process, but those were the characters that just kind of naturally came out. for me, it just felt fitting to it. So, I don’t have agendas as I write, as I said, so there was none of that. It was just for me, as a vessel of the story, as a story was coming out, it was just. Oh yeah, this character is this, this character is that, and this one is this. so no intention. But, once those things came alive, then the story kind of, evolves around what’s, organically happening. So yeah, there wasn’t intent, but at the end of it all, of course, I go, oh, I see what has come about and how the story is so, In hindsight now going, oh yeah, I did this. for me, it feels right in the, in the fact that for me, this is America Miko. To me, I, I don’t write with an Asian American kind of pen, or, or a brown person pen for me, I actually first and foremost say I’m an American. There’s no way around it. and it’s simply put too, is that. I am an American. so for me, these characters are just. Natural. And when I know about me being American and knowing about American history, these characters just naturally fit in, you know?

Miko Lee: [00:19:50] Yep. Thank you so much. I’ve read that you talk about new Americana theater. Mm-hmm. And also Joan, you were talking about how during the pandemic, you know, everybody’s learning new techniques, new ways of storytelling, just because everybody was forced to with the lockdown. Sunhui, can you talk more about what you believe New America Theater is all about?

Sunhui Chang: [00:20:12] For me, the reason why I kind of see it as new Americana theater, first off, ’cause it’s, it’s American, the stories that come out of me is very American. you know, and I recognize it. And for me, I, it is, this is part of the American fabric, so that’s why it’s called Americana.
And for me, I say it’s new. ’cause what’s new is the perspective that it’s coming out from. perspective, which brings on different characters, a different storyline, you know, different message. So yeah, that’s, that’s it for me when I refer to it as New America in the theater. It’s just that, that it’s, it’s an American tale that now we’ve been able to incorporate new voices into.

Miko Lee: [00:20:54] I noticed there’s a really large list of collaborators. Of course the two of you, but then there’s a lot of other people as well. Can you talk about that creative process, how you all were able to work together, how you made decisions about, oh, this is the part we’re gonna use film, this is the part we’re gonna use, movement.

Sunhui Chang: [00:21:11] Like I said, it’s very much organic. Our third major collaborator is Ellen Sebastian Chang. she is the director of the show, and when me, Joan and her, we first started delving into it, we did. It was just sitting down and talking a lot. Going through the scripts, the different skill sets that we bring in. And really it was through the dialogue miko and of us talking with each other, but also listening to each other. and that was a big part is that as we started listening to ourselves, we came out with this direction.

Miko Lee: [00:21:47] And what would you both like the audience to walk away with after seeing the boiling?

Joan Osato: [00:21:52] I think, you know, as Sunhui talked about this, ritual of deep listening and so, the play doesn’t guide anyone towards some natural conclusion that they should have about, you know, it’s, it’s not saying you, you must believe this, it’s really leaving it up to the viewer, the listener, to draw their own conclusions. And, I think that, that people who come to this will be incredibly moved. I think that they will see a lot of parallels with what we’re going through now and what we’ve gone through. And examine there is a kind of shameful history that we all need to grapple with, whether we own it or not. You know, Sunhui had talked about manifest destiny and that being like one of the founding, you know, kind kinds of principles that this country is founded upon. And there are many, many others That I think the play touches on which give pause and, and give the people who are engaging with this, room to think and reexamine their own actions in the world and how they approach it.

Sunhui Chang: [00:23:02] I’ll just mention as an aside, you know, some of the things that we’re looking at is. Our disconnect from the natural world and how that has impacted the natural world. Right. I think Joan is spot on in, in that about, yeah, first and foremost, I do find this so important once again to say about listening. I do. I, that is the big thing that I would love is that for us to, if we really wanna truly have dialogues, and especially with people who we disagree with, and there is a lot of disagreement in this world right now. and for me, yeah, to, Get us back to a place where we could really listen to each other and not be in such a place where all we wanted to do is kind of say what we have to say. It’s almost this thing of, oh, you know, the other has to listen, the other has to listen. And I really would like it that it becomes kind of more inward that we all say, Hey, it is time for me to listen. And then of course just the fact that when, as we listen to each other, what I do find and what I hope that others find as well, is that we’re much more connected and we have so many things that tie us together than separate.

Miko Lee: [00:24:19] Well, thank both of you so much for joining us on Apex Express. Is there anything else you wanna add?

Sunhui Chang: [00:24:24] Just one thing, Miko, one of the elements of this play, is this natural world with birding and I would love to just, one of the big inspiration is that it’s just a quote from Emily Dickinson and the quote is, “hope is the thing with feathers.” For me, I would love for people to kind of sit with that and think about that and what that means for us as human beings in relationship to the natural world, you know, and the importance of that.

Miko Lee: [00:24:52] Oh, that’s such a beautiful visual image. Thank you so much for sharing that. I appreciate both of you for sharing your time with me.

Joan Osato: [00:24:59] Thank you, Miko.

Sunhui Chang: [00:25:00] Thank you Miko

Miko Lee: [00:25:01] The Boiling is a brand new play, and it’s a story of a Korean American adoptee Brian, who’s a virologist from the Midwest, and a former homicide Detective v, a black woman who lives in the Pacific Northwest, and they’re partnered to do this trace and track from north to south. They’re following David, a white nihilistic carrier of a feverish virus called the Boiling. This world Premier Show opens to the magic theater and runs from April 2nd through April 20th. You can get more information about this show, including links to buy tickets at our show notes on kpfa.org/programs/apexexpress.

Ayame Keane-Lee: [00:25:42] Next we’ll listen to an excerpt from The Camp, the first opera on the Japanese American Concentration camps during World War II. The camp premiered from February 22nd to March 2nd, 2025 at the JACCC Aratani Theater in Los Angeles. Composed by Daniel Kessner, who combines modern classical with Japanese instruments, A libretto by Lionelle Hamanaka, directed by Diana Wyenn, with Associate Director John Miyasaki, 11 singers and a 22 piece orchestra conducted by Steve Hofer. The incidents in The Camp Opera were drawn from different camps where over 126,000 Japanese Americans were imprisoned to see the many Japanese American groups that supported this project, including JANM, DENSHO and Raf Shimpo see the camp opera.com and if you know a place where The Camp can be performed near you, please contact the campopera.com/support.

MUSIC

Miko Lee: [00:27:53] Welcome to Apex Express. I’m so glad to have Eth-Noh-Tec once again, we get Robert Kikuchi-Yngojo and Nancy Wang.

Nancy Wang: [00:28:03] Yay. Yes. Hi. Hello. So glad to be here with you Miko.

Miko Lee: [00:28:07] We have been friends and colleagues for, it feels like a hundred billion years. The times that we’re in are so complicated right now. But I just wanna first start with the question I often ask people, which is for each of you to tell me who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?

Nancy Wang: [00:28:27] Well, I am Chinese American, and I am fifth generation on my mother’s side. And. So we go all the way back to 1850 when our family first came on a junk boat and started the fishing industry in the Monterey Bay area.

Robert Kikuchi-Yngojo: [00:28:45] And I am, half Japanese, half Filipino, born in San Francisco, raised in Concord, California, and living in the Bay Area for all my life.

Miko Lee: [00:28:50] And what legacy do you carry with you?

Robert Kikuchi-Yngojo: [00:28:58] Well, I guess the identity I have as an Asian American, Japanese, and Filipino, um, I embrace all of that. The legacy is, as an artist, a performer. I’ve dedicated my life to creating works that reflect an Asian American consciousness, social, political, cultural. Both traditional works as well as new modern stories and music as well.

Nancy Wang: [00:29:25] And I was also a psychotherapist, so my work in the arts, whether it’s dance, which I started out being a dancer and then a playwright, and then storytelling. I always weave in the healing aspect of what we all need to do in our communities. And so I use my art to also bring solace and bring celebration and bring, Depth and and the breadth of who we are as Asian Americans, as human beings, as part of this world, this country, then this city, so that we can celebrate who we are together.

Miko Lee: [00:30:04] Thank you for that. I hear you talking about activism, Asian American history, who we are and healing. I’m wondering if you could give me an update about what you’re working on right now.

Nancy Wang: [00:30:14] Well, we have several things in the pipeline. I, for one, just finished writing and has now published Red Altar, which is the story of my ancestors. Three generations are followed in this book, about how they established the fishing industry in the Monterey Bay area. All the ways they had to reinvent themselves as laws were passed against them. The people try to get rid of them. And it’s really a story of courage and determination and persistence, ingenuity and obviously success. Because I’m here. So I’m gonna be doing some more readings and that can be found on our webpage. Right. And Robert,

Robert Kikuchi-Yngojo: [00:30:55] I am focusing on archiving our work and after working with Nancy and creating Eth-Noh-Tec for the last 43 plus years, we have developed over 200 stories, and we put them on stage.
We’ve written them, some of them are now being written as a compendium of stories. These are Neo-traditional folk tales and myths from Asia. And, people don’t know much of this, but I am also an artist, so I’m creating illustrations that depict these stories. That’s one project.

Nancy Wang: [00:31:23] Yeah, that’s our next book. but what we’re really excited about is our second Strong Like Bamboo, stories of resilience in the era of Asian American hate, but it’s really broadened beyond Asian American because this year on May 22nd, will be a gathering of Latino and Asian artists and musicians, storytellers, and activists to just sit around and really share our stories, share our music, share our concerns, and to build bridges with each other because it, we will need to increase, our coalitions during this era. It’s gotten worse, so we really need to come together.

Robert Kikuchi-Yngojo: [00:32:08] and we titled it strong like bamboo because of the Asian anecdote about, you know, one bamboo can snap, but together binding many bamboo together we’re much stronger. So it’s a call out to the community to bring all of our constituents and broaden that so that we are strong, as people of color.

Nancy Wang: [00:32:25] And of course we’re gonna have food, which always brings us all together. But also bamboo can bend. Without breaking, so that’s on a Thursday, May 22nd. But on May 25th, I have curated four other storytellers to tell their stories of their racist experiences and how they came through it to a healing place.

Robert Kikuchi-Yngojo: [00:32:48] There’s a gathering of Asian American storytellers, both from the Chicago area and also from the west coast.

Nancy Wang: [00:32:53] And there’ll be a panel so they can ask questions and we can have discussions. But after that, the people in the audience will have the opportunity to break up into small groups of three in which they get to share their own stories, their own concerns, and that’s really the whole thing is about inspiring people to come through what they’re going through and coming out, on the other side with some hope and healing.
Because when we share our stories, we lift that particular burden of, say our story about our racist experience. We lifted off our own shoulders and we get to share it. With someone who’s listening with compassion and we don’t feel alone anymore. It’s really a powerful, powerful way to find community connection, relation, and strength.

Robert Kikuchi-Yngojo: [00:33:45] And we’ll have also in both of those events, resources in earlier years, I was an Asian American songwriter and did a lot of songs of not just identity, but of unity. I’m also gonna be singing a theme song called Bamboo, which is part of the title and also, a work by Chris Jim, famous of the Chris and Joe Asian American Duet from years ago. the one song we’re still here, though it was written 30, 40 years ago. It’s still pertinent to what’s going on now, especially declaring that America is a multiracial, multiethnic, texture of society.

Nancy Wang: [00:34:20] and, in 2026 we’re gonna bring on, African-American and Euro-American, storytellers also, so that we really have a multicultural representation of all who we are and how we still will need to come together. I hope things will be better by 2026, but who knows?

Miko Lee: [00:34:39] Thank you so much for sharing about how storytelling can really be a tool for social change. Is there anything else you wanna share with our audience?

Nancy Wang: [00:34:47] Yeah. please come to our strong like Bamboo on May 22nd and 25th is gonna be at the San Francisco Public Library Main Library, both are free to the public May 22nd the Thursday at May 22nd, it’s gonna be in Hispanic room,

Robert Kikuchi-Yngojo: [00:35:05] and what time?

Nancy Wang: [00:35:06] Six to seven-thirty. And on Sunday it’ll be in the presentations, the performances in the panel will be in the Koret auditorium, and then small groups will convene in the Hispanic room, which is right next door, and it’s got elevators. So no problem, in getting there. Plus Bart and the bus is, it’s easy to get there. And so that’s what we wanted so that people could feel welcome.

Robert Kikuchi-Yngojo: [00:35:35] And that second show on Sunday Strong like Bamboo will feature our guest artist storytellers, professional storytellers. One of them being a local Eleanor Clement Glass who’s half African American and Filipino, talking about her experiences. And then also, two guest artists from Chicago, one of them being Lillian Ji, who is a Japanese American hapa. Then third is, Archie Jun, who is a Thai American gay comedian storyteller who is a total riot. we are really wanting to blend many of our communities together to hear this talent Yes. And to deal with the topics.

Nancy Wang: [00:36:10] So we would love for the LGBTQ plus community to come out as well and support him and feel proud because all of the stories will, will really showcase our strength and our ability to deal with these things and come out the other side. So we are hoping that in the process of telling our pain, but coming out, on the other side, that it will be an inspiration for everyone to keep going during this difficult, very difficult time.

Miko Lee: [00:36:41] Thank you so much for joining me today.

Nancy Wang: [00:36:44] You’re welcome. Thank you

Ayame Keane-Lee: [00:36:46] You are listening to 94.1 KPFA and 89.3 KPFB in Berkeley, 88.1 KFCF in Fresno, and online worldwide at kpfa.org.

Miko Lee: [00:37:05] Welcome Jiehae Park to Apex Express. I am so excited to talk to you about the world premier of the aves opening at Berkeley Repertory Theater, May 2nd through June 8th. Welcome to Apex Express.

Jiehae Park: [00:37:19] Hi, Miko. It’s so nice to be here. Thanks for having me.

Miko Lee: [00:37:22] I wanna just first start with a personal question, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?

Jiehae Park: [00:37:31] Hmm. I love the phrasing of that question. I was born in Korea and I came to the states when I was three years old with my parents who came to go to graduate school. And my father’s family fled the north during the war. And my mother’s family had always been in the south. And I definitely think that who they are and where they came from is a big part of who I am and the questions that I think of. And in a lot of ways, not just, racially and culturally, but also in terms of their interests. They’re both scientists. This play deals, I hope thoughtfully with questions of identity and consciousness, that I’ve always been interested in.

Miko Lee: [00:38:18] And what legacy do you feel like you carry with you from them?

Jiehae Park: [00:38:22] Hmm. I mean, I write a lot about immigrants. This play isn’t specifically about that, but in a lot of my previous work, I, I have. have written a lot about immigrants and I feel like my parents, you know, they came to this country when they were in their twenties. They didn’t speak the language. They came from a generation of folks and at that time in the country where they were really, they had to be a certain way to survive. And I think that, intensity of work ethic, and the things that you also have to give up in order to get to where you think you wanna be, that question is, is part of their legacy to me. It’s a, it’s a gift and also something that, like a lot of other immigrants, I think I’m always sort of turning over in my mind and, and trying to look at from other angles.

Miko Lee: [00:39:12] Thank you for sharing. I’m wondering if you can talk to us about, first this title of your, world Premier, the aves. Where did this title come from? What is it about?

Jiehae Park: [00:39:23] So the title is the Latin word for Birds. And, the play there’s a mystery that sort of unspools early on. So without, without giving too much away we see this old couple on a bench, on a park bench, and they have clearly been together for a long time and they are having a conversation that seems like a very ordinary conversation. And over the course of the first scene, we soon learn that they are discussing, doing something that will have ramifications throughout the rest of the play. And the aves is a word that I loved because of the association with birds. There, there are birds that make an appearance in this play, in both pedestrian and unexpected ways, in mysterious ways, and hopefully humorous ways. and then the connotation also of Ave Maria and this, this feeling of the sacred, which also infuses the play, which has a lot of humor, but also when I was writing it, I was thinking a lot about nature and the passage of time and this feeling of awe that I get when engage with nature. And I think that word also has those connotations for me.

Miko Lee: [00:40:46] And that sounds like a mystery that people need to come to find out more about. Can you tell us what inspired this work?

Jiehae Park: [00:40:54] I used to live on the northside of Central Park in Harlem, and I had this tiny, tiny little window that looked out, onto the north side of the park. And every day I would sit down to write and through my tiny window, I would see the same man sitting on this bench every day. And as the seasons changed and the leaves changed and the light changed, but still every morning there was the consistency of seeing the same person. And I think I I was thinking a lot about the passage of time and of nature shifting And I think subconsciously I was thinking about getting older myself. This was a time before I had children, but I was starting to become aware of my parents aging and generationally My peers, also our parents were aging and, and starting to have, you know, the complications and the beautiful things that can come with that. So I think all of that was a big soup in my subconscious. and I sat down and I wrote the first scene very quickly and then. I didn’t know exactly what the rest of the play was gonna be, but I knew structurally that the first scene would be this old couple and that the second scene would be, a slightly different configuration of, of bodies. But that was hard to be so mysterious, um, and that the nex scene would be a different specific configuration of body. So I was thinking about the age of the bodies that you’re watching and the story evolved from that. And I guess I should say that the play is set in a moment sort of best after now.
So it’s not the present, but it’s not the distant future. It’s certainly not like hard sci-fi by any means, but I think it uses some tools of speculative fiction. To ask questions that hopefully are illuminating about ourselves now.

Miko Lee: [00:42:59] Interesting. Did you ever talk with the man in the park that inspired this piece?

Jiehae Park: [00:43:05] You know, it’s so funny. After the first couple of weeks of watching him, I realized he lived in my building and I hadn’t noticed him before.

Miko Lee: [00:43:18] Wow. That’s amazing.

Jiehae Park: [00:43:20] And I think that that’s also something that. I had been thinking a lot about at the time this question of presence and attention, especially in New York, which is a city that is so loud. I mean, I love, I love New York and there’s so many things that I love about New York, but it is such a loud city and it is hard to hear yourself think and, and the quality of attention in any. I was gonna say in any city, but in like any moment in our extremely chaotic world, I mean, especially now, that sort of quiet present quality of attention that I think is so beautiful and so rare, and I associate with, I’m not religious, but, but when I was a kid, I was, and this, this quality of, of sacred space, I think I was, I was really curious about that. And at the time, I think I had also that year gone on a silent meditation retreat. so trying to bring that quality of attention to my ordinary life as a urban citizen, I think was also part of the experience of writing the play. But yeah, he lived in my building and I hadn’t noticed him before. And so this question of what do we notice and what do we need to shift in ourselves to notice what’s in front of us and has been in front of us.

Miko Lee: [00:44:44] I am hearing you talk about a sense of presence and, and time passing. I’m wondering if that is what you want the audience to walk away with or are there other things that you’re interested in provoking with this piece?

Jiehae Park: [00:44:57] As an audience member, when I go to any play, I always hope to leave a little bit different than how I entered and. That shift can be really subtle. In fact, for me as an audience member, sometimes it feels more profound when it is subtle. So on, on like at like a really baseline level. We’ve been having a lot of conversations with the design team about how to create this. Quality of space that feels different from the mundane so that when we enter the space of the theater, so for our body chemistry changes and that we are being asked by the play to lean in and pay attention perhaps in a way that we’re not asked to pay attention, in, in the world outside of that room. And to be able to request that of an audience and share that with an audience. Together, I think is such a beautiful thing. And, and one of my favorite things about any collective experience when, when it all feels like we’re breathing together. And my hope is that that’s something that we can create, at a, like a biochemical level in our bodies, on a sort of more. Intellectual, emotional, philosophical level. I think there are questions that the play is asking about, what makes us, us and memory and the ability of a person and a relationship to change over a long period of time. And over the course of events that. May require forgiveness. those were certainly things that I was thinking about while I was writing it. So there’s also that, that more character relational level of questioning that, that I think, will resonate with people, in different ways depending on where they are in their lives. And then I think especially because, you know, there’s a lot of conversation about sandwich generation now, like folks, I. Who have dealt with aging themselves or aging parents and, the complexities and possibilities that can create. I think that there’s another layer of the play that stirs up some of those questions as well.

Miko Lee: [00:47:04] Speaking of complexities and possibilities, I understand that you studied music and that you’re also an actor and then you also write for Marvel’s Runaways. Can you share a little bit about how these different elements impact you as a writer, as a creator?

Jiehae Park: [00:47:20] Yeah, so I started as an actor, which I think a lot of people do, mostly because it’s the most accessible thing. Like you can audition for a play. You can’t sort of audition to write a play. you can just write a play. But that, I think, came later for me. I don’t really perform a ton anymore, although I did love it. and then the shift to television happened eight or so years ago. There’s a big movement of playwrights moving into television, during peak tv. And they’re very different. there is some shared similarity in storytelling instincts and craft. but the mediums are just really different, so I feel like I get very different things from, from all of them. I feel like I learned being a performer for a long time. As an artist, it’s just getting to bump up against people who you think are fascinating and learn from them what you like and what you don’t like, and who you wanna be and who you don’t wanna be. and from tv I think I learned, To not be so precious. It takes a really long time for me to write a play. and I used to think, oh, I have to go into the woods and like be silent for a month and then like a play will emerge. And like sometimes it happens and it, that feels like a blessing when it does. But in TV, because there’s so much money at stake and so much time pressure that you know, when something’s due, it’s just due and you turn it in. And if it’s not perfect, you just deal with it and you make it as good as you can. And I think that there’s a certain amount of shedding of perfectionism, which has been really healthy for me. but I do. Love the theater for the ability to spend a long period of time contemplating something and, and making it with a group of people who feel inspiring and we’re all moving towards the same thing. and I think there’s a little bit more space or a lot more space in the theater for things that may feel. mysterious or more open. whereas in television especially these days with the sort of decline of peak TV, there’s an expectation of propulsion. Like overt propulsion, if that makes sense. That is not a criticism like, you know, I also love TV. but it is, it’s like the pace of it is different and the ask of it is different than the ask of a play and and the baseline thing of just, you’re not in the same room with the people experiencing it that is so special in theatre.

Miko Lee: [00:49:45] How do you go about shifting that mindset for that kind of speed of TV that you’re describing versus the kind of longer meditative state of creating theater?

Jiehae Park: [00:49:55] Yeah, I mean, I think there’s hopefully a two-way exchange. Because I also think that bringing some of those qualities of thoughtfulness and deliberation to the world of TV within the container, within the boundaries of it, can be incredibly useful. And ultimately a lot of the things that delight people, delight people regardless of the format.
So that, like, that feeling of inevitable but surprising, like that’s something that is of tremendous value in all mediums, right? I think for me personally, when I write a play. I try to make a space in my life that is a little more still. and I have a toddler now, so that’s challenging. But in a way, working in television has been really helpful for that because, you know, I don’t have five hours in the middle of the day to, you know, be with myself and listen to the trees. I maybe have like 30 minutes, but to try to drop into that as. quickly and without angst, without like working myself up about it.
’cause that’s a waste of time. That’s been a useful lesson to learn. Whereas working in television can feel a lot less lonely also than playwriting because in a writer’s room, most shows in the states are written in the writer’s room, there are few exceptions, and you’re with a group of people. And so there’s a sort of energetic exchange happening there that in a play only happens much, much later when you’re in rehearsal and ideally in production. there’s a sort of joyful energy and exchange that can happen in a writer’s room, both when you’re breaking the story and then ultimately when you’re in production. And there’s like many, many more people involved. And there’s the crew and the cast and you know, all of the technical departments and producers. I feel like you mentioned, Code switching earlier. And, humans are so adaptable and I think we automatically sort of shift our brain chemistry and our body chemistry in response to the environment around us. sometimes very consciously, sometimes unconsciously, sometimes both. so I think a certain amount of that is just, okay, these are the given circumstances. And then, you become who you need to be in that space.

Miko Lee: [00:51:54] Thank you for sharing. Okay. I have one last TV question, which is that given that everybody’s in this writing room together and you’re, there’s kind of a speed that’s attached to it, do you feel like things get thrown out more quickly and with less kind of emotion attached to it than in theater?

Jiehae Park: [00:52:10] It’s possible. I think it depends on the person. So I just worked on season four of the morning show last year. And there is a real need on that show because it deals with the news to be absorbing what’s happening in the world and shifting the story based on that.
And so that there has to be a sort of lightness around that. So in that kind of environment, absolutely. but I’ve also been in other rooms where someone got really attached to an idea, and maybe it was clear that that idea wasn’t gonna work out, but there was, there was still like something, in it that wanted to be held onto and, and it may be hung on for a long time.
And that process. Also could have happened, like that exact parallel process could have happened in a play. And actually in neither of the situation, is that necessarily a bad thing? Like is there something about that idea that maybe is not the idea itself, like the emotional core underneath it or the deep, deep idea underneath it that is useful? That even if the manifestation of the thing doesn’t continue, if the manifestation gets thrown out, but like the real thing that was underneath it was important gets folded in in some unexpected way. I don’t think it’s a bad thing either way. It just is the peculiarities of any particular process.

Miko Lee: [00:53:22] And it sounds like it’s about the people too, right?

Jiehae Park: [00:53:25] Yes, definitely. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I’ve certainly been in that book where I’m like, oh, I really think it’s like this. It’s gotta be this, it’s gotta be this. And then, you know, two years later, I look at the draft, I’m like, oh, no, no, no. It, it is definitely not that. Like let me take that entire thing out. and it just was in that particular moment, I wasn’t ready for whatever reason to let go of that idea. And that’s okay. I am now, and then it moves on.

Miko Lee: [00:53:48] We’re circling back to the beginning of the conversation about the aves, which is about presence and being in that moment. And where you are in that moment might be, no, this isn’t right. And then years later you say, oh yeah, that wasn’t right. Or that was right.

Jiehae Park: [00:54:03] Yeah, exactly, exactly. To listen to yourself is a, you know, I, I am, I’ve been doing this for a long time now and, that is still something that I feel like I always have to learn, that I think just is a human.

Miko Lee: [00:54:15] Yes. The perennial lesson of Yes, intuition. I’m wondering if you could tell our audience why they should go see the aves.

Jiehae Park: [00:54:24] My hope is that if you are curious about a certain kind of experience and attention in the theater, that you’ll accept our invitation to this play, which is an unusual play. I don’t think that everyone should see this play, just like, I don’t think everyone should see any particular work of art, but if the things that we’ve been discussing, if the sort of vibe that you’re getting from this conversation resonates with you, then the experience of seeing this play with a group of people who are also curious about that kind of experience may be something. That is enjoyable for you and would probably therefore also be enjoyable for that audience to be together with you and for the play to be together with you in that space.

Miko Lee: [00:55:17] Thank you so much for spending time chatting with us. Folks can see the aves at Berkeley rep May 2nd through June 8th. Thank you so much, Jiehae.

Ayame Keane-Lee: [00:55:26] For you Asian American film makers out there: SFFILM announced a new annual filmmaking grant in partnership with Cedar Road. The SFFILM Cedar Road Iyagi Grant is dedicated to fostering bold, original feature film projects that amplify Asian and Asian American perspectives on screen. In Korean, iyagi means “story”—a word that embodies the heart of this grant’s mission: to champion storytelling as a powerful bridge connecting people across cultures and perspectives. A link to the grant application will be available in our show notes.

Miko Lee: [00:55:58] Please check out our website, kpfa.org to find out more about our show tonight. We think all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important.

APEX Express is created by Miko Lee, Jalena Keane-Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar, Anuj Vaidya, Swati Rayasam, Aisa Villarosa, Estella Owoimaha-Church, Gabriel Tangloao, Cheryl Truong and Ayame Keane-Lee.
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APEX Express – 7.3.25 – Haibayo
3 lug· KPFA - APEX Express
A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.

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APEX Express – 6.26.25-Deport. Exclude. Revoke. Imprison – Wong Kim Ark is for All of Us
26 giu· KPFA - APEX Express
A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Tonight Producer Swati Rayasam showcases a community panel of how discriminatory exclusion policies during times of heightened fears of national security and safety have threatened our communities in the past, and how the activities of the current administration threaten our core constitutional rights, raising the specter of politicization and polarization of citizenship, immigration visas, naturalization rights, and the right to free speech.

Deport. Exclude. Revoke. Imprison – “Wong Kim Ark is for All of Us” SHOW TRANSCRIPT
Swati Rayasam: You are tuned in to APEX Express on KPFA. My name is Swati Rayasam and I’m back as your special producer for this episode. Tonight we have an incredible community panel titled Deport. Exclude. Revoke. Imprison. This panel explores the history of how discriminatory exclusion policies during times of heightened fears of national security and [00:01:00] safety have threatened our communities in the past, and how the activities of the current administration threaten our core constitutional rights, raising the specter of politicization and polarization of citizenship, immigration visas, naturalization rights, and the right to free speech. I’ll pass it on to UC Berkeley Ethnic Studies Professor Mike Chang to kick us off.
Mike and Harvey: We’re starting on Berkeley time, right on time at three 10, and I want to introduce Harvey Dong.
Harvey Dong: Okay. The sponsors for today’s event include, AADS- Asian American and Diaspora studies program, uc, Berkeley, Asian American Research Center, the Center for Race and Gender Department of Ethnic Studies- all part of uc, Berkeley. Off campus, we have the following community groups. Chinese for Affirmative Action, Asian Law Caucus, [00:02:00] Asian Prisoners Support Committee, and East Wind Books.
Okay, so that’s, quite a few in terms of coalition people coming together. My name is Harvey Dong and I’m also a lecturer in the AADS program and part of the ethnic studies department. I can say that I exist here as the result of birthright citizenship won by Ancestor Wong Kim Ark in 1898. Otherwise, I would not be here.
We want to welcome everyone here today, for this important panel discussion titled: Deport, Exclude, Revoke, Imprison – Immigration and citizenship rights during crisis. Yes, we are in a deep crisis today. The Chinese characters for crisis is way G in Mandarin or way gay in [00:03:00] Cantonese, which means danger and opportunity.
We are in a moment of danger and at the same time in a moment of opportunity. Our communities are under attack from undocumented, documented, and those with citizenship. We see urgency in coming together. In 1898, the US Supreme Court case, US versus Wong Kim Ark held that under the 14th Amendment birthright, citizenship applies to all people born in the United States.
Regardless of their race or their parents’ national origin or immigration status. On May 15th this year, the Supreme Court will hear a President Donald Trump’s request to implement an executive order that will end birthright citizenship already before May 15th, [00:04:00] deportations of US citizen children are taking place. Recently, three US citizen children, one 2-year-old with cancer have been deported with their undocumented parents.
The numbers of US citizen children are much higher being deported because it’s less covered in the press. Unconstitutional. Yes, definitely. And it’s taking place now. Also today, more than 2.7 million southeast Asian Americans live in the US but at least 16,000 community members have received final orders of deportation, placing their lives and families in limbo.
This presents a mental health challenge and extreme economic hardship for individuals and families who do not know whether their next day in the US will be their last. Wong Kim Ark’s [00:05:00] struggle and the lessons of Wong Kim Ark, continue today. His resistance provides us with a grounding for our resistance.
So they say deport, exclude, revoke, imprison. We say cease and desist. You can say that every day it just seems like the system’s gone amuk. There’s constant attacks on people of color, on immigrants and so forth. And our only solution, or the most important solution is to resist, legally resist, but also to protest, to demand cease and desist.
Today brings together campus and community people. We want you all to be informed because if you’re uninformed , you can’t do anything. Okay? You have to know where things are at. It’s nothing new. What they’re trying to do, in 1882, [00:06:00] during times of economic crisis, they scapegoated Asian Americans.
Today there’s economic, political crisis. And the scapegoating continues. They’re not doing anything new. You know, it’s old stuff, but we have to realize that, and we have to look at the past in terms of what was done to fight it and also build new solidarities today. Wong Kim Ark did not take his situation sitting down. He went through, lots of obstacles. He spent three months in Angel Island he was arrested after he won his case because he was constantly being harassed wherever he went.
His kids when they came over were also, spotted as being Wong Kim Ark’s, children, and they too had to spend months at Angel Island. So Wong Kim Ark did not take his situation sitting down. We need to learn from him today.
Our [00:07:00] next, special guest is Mr. Norman Wong, a good friend of mine. He was active here in the third world Liberation Front strike that led to ethnic studies. He did a lots of work for the development of Asian American studies and we’ve been out in touch for about, what, 40 years? So I’m really happy that he’s able to come back to Berkeley and to talk about yourself, if you wish, maybe during the Q and a, but to talk about , the significance of your great-grandfather’s case.
Okay, so Norman Wong, let’s give him a hand.
Norman Wong: Hello, my name’s Norman Wong. I’m the great grandson, Wong Kim Ark. Wong Kim Ark was [00:08:00] born in the USA, like my great-grandfather. I, too was born American in the same city, San Francisco, more than 75 years after him. We are both Americans, but unlike him, my citizenship has never been challenged. His willingness to stand up and fight made the difference for his struggles, my humble thanks.
Wong Kim Ark however, was challenged more than once. In late 1889 as an American, he traveled to China in July, 1890. He returned to his birth city. He had his papers and had no problems with reentry. In 1895, after a similar trip, he was stopped from disembarking and was placed into custody for five months aboard ship in port.
[00:09:00] Citizenship denied, the reason the Chinese exclusion Act 1882. He had to win this case in district court, provide $250 bail and then win again in the United States Supreme Court, March 28th, 1898. Only from these efforts, he was able to claim his citizenship granted by birthright from the 14th Amendment and gain his freedom.
That would not be the last challenge to his being American. My mother suffered similar treatment. She like my great-grandfather, was born in America. In 1942, she was forced with her family and thousands of other Japanese Americans to relocation camps an experience unspoken by her family. [00:10:00] I first learned about Japanese American internment from history books. Executive order 9066 was the command. No due process, citizenship’s rights stripped. She was not American enough. Now we have executive order 14160. It is an attack on birthright citizenship. We cannot let this happen. We must stand together. We are a nation of immigrants. What kind of nation are we to be with stateless children? Born to no country.
To this, I say no. We as Americans need to embrace each other and [00:11:00] cherish each new life. Born in the USA. Thank you.
Harvey Dong: Thank you, Norman. And Annie Lee, will moderate, the following panel, involving campus and community representatives who will be sharing their knowledge and experience. Annie Lee, Esquire is an attorney. She’s also the, managing director of policy for Chinese Affirmative Action, and she’s also, heavily involved in the birthright citizenship issue.
Annie Lee: Thank you so much Harvey for that very warm welcome and thank you again to Norman for your remarks. I think it’s incredible that you’re speaking up at this moment, to preserve your ancestors’ legacy because it impacts not just you and him, but all of us [00:12:00] here.
So thank you. As Harvey said, my name is Annie Lee and I have this honor of working with this amazing panel of esteemed guest we have today. So I will ask each of them to introduce themselves. And I will start, because I would love to hear your name, pronouns. Title and organization as well as your personal or professional relationship with the US Immigration System.
So my name’s Annie. I use she her pronouns. I’m the managing Director of policy at Chinese for Affirmative Action, which is a non-profit based in San Francisco Chinatown. We provide direct services to the monolingual working class Chinese community, and also advocate for policies to benefit all Asian Americans. My relationship with the immigration system is I am the child of two Chinese immigrants who did not speak English. And so I just remember lots of time spent on the phone when I was a kid with INS, and then it became U-S-C-I-S just trying to ask them what happened to [00:13:00] a family member’s application for naturalization, for visas so I was the interpreter for them growing up and even today. I will pass it to Letty.
Leti Volpp: Hi everybody. Thank you so much, Annie. Thank you Harvey. Thank you, Norman. That was profoundly moving to hear your remarks and I love the way that you framed our conversation, Harvey.
I’m Leti Volpp. I am the Robert d and Leslie k Raven, professor of Law and Access to Justice at the Berkeley Law, school. I’m also the director of the campus wide , center for Race and Gender, which is a legacy of the Third World Liberation Front, and the 1999, student movement, that led to the creation of the center.
I work on immigration law and citizenship theory, and I am the daughter, second of four, children of my mother who was an immigrant from China, and my father who was an immigrant [00:14:00] from Germany. So I’ll pass it. Thank you.
Ke Lam: Thank you. Thank you all for being here. Thank you, Norman. So my name’s Key. I go by he, him pronouns or Nghiep “Ke” Lam, is my full name. I work for an organization called Asian Prison Support Committee. It’s been around for like over two decades now, and it started behind three guys advocating for ethics study, Asian and Pacific Islander history.
And then it was starting in San Quent State Prison. All three of them pushed for ethics study, hard and the result is they all was put into solitary confinement. And many years later, after all three got out, was Eddie Zang, Mike Romero and Mike no. And when they got out, Eddie came back and we pushed for ethics study again, and we actually got it started in 2013.
And it’s been going on to today. Then the programs is called Roots, restoring our Original True Self. So reconnecting with who we are. And one of Eddie’s main, mottos that really stuck with me. He said, we need to all connect to our chi, right? And I’m like, okay, I understand what chi is, and he said no.
He [00:15:00] said, you need to connect to your culture, your history, which result to equal your identity, who you are as a person. So, the more we study about our history and our culture, like, birthright citizen, it empower us to know, who we are today. Right? And also part of that is to how do we take down the veil of shame in our community, the veil of trauma that’s impacting our community as well.
We don’t talk about issue that impact us like immigration. So I’m a 1.5 generation. So I was born in Vietnam from Chinese family that migrant from China to Vietnam started business after the fall of Vietnam War. We all got kicked out but more than that, I am directly impacted because I am a stranded deportee, somebody that got their, legal status taken away because of criminal conviction.
And as of any moment now, I could actually be taken away. So I live in that, right at that threshold of like uncertainty right now. And the people I work with, which are hundreds of people, are fixing that same uncertainty.[00:16:00]
Annie Lee: Thank you, Ke.
I’m gonna pass it to our panelists who are joining us virtually, including Bun.
Can you start and then we’ll pass it to Chris after.
Bun: Hey everybody, thank you for having me. My name is Bun. I’m the co-director of Asian Prison Support Committee. I’m also, 1.5 generation former incarcerated and under, direct impact of immigration.
Christopher Lapinig: Hi everyone. My name is Christopher Lapinig, my pronouns are he, him and Sha. I am a senior staff attorney on the Democracy and National Initiatives Team at Asian Law Caucus, which you may know is the country’s first and oldest legal aid in civil rights organization, dedicated to serving, low income immigrant and underserved AAPI communities.
In terms of my connection to the immigration system, I am, I also am a beneficiary of a birthright citizenship, and my parents are both immigrants from the Philippines. I was born in New York City. My [00:17:00] extended family spans both in the US and the Philippines. After graduating law school and clerking, my fellowship project was focused on providing litigation and immigration services to, survivors of labor trafficking in the Filipino community. While working at Asian Americans Advancing Justice Los Angeles, I also was engaged in, class action litigation, challenging the first Trump administration’s practices, detaining immigrants in the Vietnamese and Cambodian communities.
Annie Lee: Thank you, Chris. Thank you Bun. Let’s start off by talking about birthright citizenship since it’s a big topic these days. On the very, very first day of Trump’s administration, he issued a flurry of executive orders, including one that would alter birthright citizenship. But I wanna take us back to the beginning because why do we have this right?
It is a very broad right? If you were born in the United States, you are an American citizen. Where does that come from? So I wanna pose the first question to Letty to talk about the [00:18:00] origins of birthright citizenship.,
Leti Volpp: Very happy to. So what’s being fought about is a particular clause in the Constitution and the 14th Amendment, which says, all persons born are naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside.
Okay, so that’s the text. There’s been a very long understanding of what this text means, which says that regardless of the immigration status of one’s parents, all children born here are entitled to birthright citizenship with three narrow exceptions, which I will explain. So the Trump administration executive order, wants to exclude from birthright citizenship, the children of undocumented immigrants, and the children of people who are here on lawful temporary visas. So for example, somebody here on an [00:19:00] F1 student visa, somebody on a H one B worker visa, somebody here is a tourist, right? And basically they’re saying we’ve been getting this clause wrong for over a hundred years. And I will explain to you why I think they’re making this very dubious argument.
Essentially when you think about where the 14th amendment came from, in the United States, in the Antebellum era, about 20% of people were enslaved and there were lots of debates about citizenship. Who should be a citizen? Who could be a citizen? And in 1857, the Supreme Court issued a decision in a case called Dread Scott, where they said that no person who was black, whether free or enslaved, could ever be a citizen.
The Civil War gets fought, they end slavery. And then the question arose, well, what does this mean for citizenship? Who’s a citizen of the United States? And in 1866, Congress [00:20:00] enacts a law called the Civil Rights Act, which basically gave rights to people that were previously denied and said that everybody born in the United States is a birthright citizen.
This gets repeated in the 14th Amendment with the very important interpretation of this clause in Norman’s great-grandfather’s case, the case of Wong Kim Ark. So this came before the Supreme Court in 1898. If you think about the timing of this, the federal government had basically abandoned the reconstruction project, which was the project of trying to newly enfranchised, African Americans in the United States. The Supreme Court had just issued the decision, Plessy versus Ferguson, which basically legitimated the idea that, we can have separate, but equal, as a doctrine of rights. So it was a nation that was newly hostile to the goals of the Reconstruction Congress, and so they had this case come before them, whereas we heard [00:21:00] from Norman, we have his great-grandfather born in San Francisco, Chinatown, traveling back and forth to China.
His parents having actually left the United States. And this was basically presented as a test case to the Supreme Court. Where the government tried to argue, similar to what the Trump administration is arguing today, that birthright citizenship, that clause does not guarantee universal birthright citizenship saying that children of immigrants are not subject to the jurisdiction thereof, not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States because their parents are also not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States.
The Supreme Court took over a year to decide the case. They knew that it would be controversial, and the majority of the court said, this provision is clear. It uses universal language. It’s intended to apply to children of all immigrants. One of the things that’s interesting about [00:22:00] what the, well I’ll let Chris actually talk about what the Trump administration, is trying to do, but let me just say that in the Wong Kim Ark decision, the Supreme Court makes very clear there only three narrow exceptions to who is covered by the 14th Amendment. They’re children of diplomats. So for example, if the Ambassador of Germany is in the United States, and, she has a daughter, like her daughter should not become a birthright citizen, right? This is why there’s diplomatic immunity. Why, for example, in New York City, there are millions of dollars apparently owed to the city, in parking tickets by ambassadors who don’t bother to pay them because they’re not actually subject to the jurisdiction in the United States.
Okay? Second category, children of Native Americans who are seen as having a sovereign relationship of their own, where it’s like a nation within a nation, kind of dynamic, a country within a country. And there were detailed conversations in the congressional debate about the [00:23:00] 14th Amendment, about both of these categories of people.
The third category, were children born to a hostile invading army. Okay? So one argument you may have heard people talk about is oh, I think of undocumented immigrants as an invading army. Okay? If you look at the Wong Kim Ark decision, it is very clear that what was intended, by this category of people were a context where the hostile invading army is actually in control of that jurisdiction, right?
So that the United States government is not actually governing that space so that the people living in it don’t have to be obedient, to the United States. They’re obedient to this foreign power. Okay? So the thread between all three of these exceptions is about are you having to be obedient to the laws of the United States?
So for example, if you’re an undocumented immigrant, you are subject to being criminally prosecuted if you commit a crime, right? Or [00:24:00] you are potentially subjected to deportation, right? You have to obey the law of the United States, right? You are still subject to the jurisdiction thereof. Okay? But the Trump administration, as we’re about to hear, is making different arguments.
Annie Lee: Thank you so much, Leti for that historical context, which I think is so important because, so many different communities of color have contributed to the rights that we have today. And so what Leti is saying here is that birthright citizenship is a direct result of black liberation and fighting for freedom in the Civil War and making sure that they were then recognized as full citizens.
And then reinforced, expanded, by Wong Kim Ark. And now we are all beneficiaries and the vast majority of Americans get our citizenship through birth. Okay? That is true for white people, black people. If you’re born here, you get your ci. You don’t have to do anything. You don’t have to go to court. You don’t have to say anything.
You are a US citizen. And now as Leti referenced, there’s this fringe legal theory that, thankfully we’ve got lawyers like [00:25:00] Chris who are fighting this. So Chris, you’re on the ALC team, one of many lawsuits against the Trump administration regarding this unlawful executive order. Can you tell us a little bit about the litigation and the arguments, but I actually really want you to focus on what are the harms of this executive order?
Sometimes I think particularly if you are a citizen, and I am one, sometimes we take what we have for granted and you don’t even realize what citizenship means or confers. So Chris, can you talk about the harms if this executive order were to go through?
Christopher Lapinig: Yeah. As Professor Volpp sort of explained this executive order really is an assault on a fundamental constitutional right that has existed for more than a hundred years at this point, or, well, about 125 years. And if it is allowed to be implemented, the harms would really be devastating and far reach. So first, you know, children born in the us, the [00:26:00] parents without permanent status, as permissible said, would be rendered effectively stateless, in many cases.
And these are of course, children, babies who have never known any other home, yet they would be denied the basic rights of citizen. And so the order targets a vast range of families, and not just undocument immigrants, but also those with work visas, student visas, humanitarian productions like TPS, asylum seekers, fleeing persecution, DACA recipients as well.
And a lot of these communities have deep ties to Asian American community. To our history, and of course are, essential part, of our social fabric. In practical terms, children born without birthright citizenship would be denied access to healthcare through Medicaid, through denied access to snap nutritional assistance, even basic IDs like social security numbers, passports.
And then as they grow older, they’d be barred from voting, serving on juries and even [00:27:00] working. And then later on in life, they might be, if they, are convicted of a crime and make them deportable, they could face deportation to countries that they never stepped, foot off basically.
And so this basically is this executive order threatened at risk, creating exactly what the drafters of the 14th Amendment wanted to prevent the creation of a permanent underclass of people in the United States. It’ll just get amplified over time. If you can imagine if there’s one generation of people born without citizenship, there will be a second generation born and a third and fourth, and it’ll just get amplified over time.
And so it truly is just, hard to get your mind around exactly what the impact of this EO would be.
Annie Lee: Thanks, Chris. And where are we in the litigation right now? Harvey referenced, a hearing at the Supreme Court on May 15th, but, tell us a little bit about the injunction and the arguments on the merits and when that can, when we can expect [00:28:00] that.
Christopher Lapinig: Yeah, so there were a number of lawsuits filed immediately after, the administration issued its exec order on January 20th. Asian Law Caucus we filed with the ACLU Immigrant Rights Project. Literally we were the first lawsuit, literally hours after the executive order was issued. By early February, federal judges across the country had issued nationwide preliminary injunctions blocking implementation of the order.
Our case is actually not a nationwide injunction. And so there’re basically, I believe three cases that are going up to the Supreme Court. And, the Trump administration appealed to various circuit courts to try to undo these injunctions. But all circuit courts upheld the injunctive relief and and so now the Supreme Court is going to be hearing arguments on May 15th.
And so it has not actually ruled on whether or not the executive order is constitutional, but it’s going to. I mean, it remains to be seen exactly what they’re going to decide but may [00:29:00] 15th is the next date is the big date on our calendar.
Annie Lee: Yeah. So the Trump administration is arguing that these judges in a particular district, it’s not fair if they get to say that the entire country, is barred from receiving this executive order. Is that procedurally correct. Judges, in order to consider whether to grants an injunction, they have a whole battery of factors that they look at, including one, which is like likelihood of winning on the merits.
Because if something is unconstitutional, it’s not really great to say, yeah, you can let this executive order go through. And then like later when the court cases finally worked their way, like a year later, pull back from that. And so that’s, it’s very frustrating to see this argument. And it’s also unfair and would be very messy if the states that had republican Attorneys General who did not litigate, why would you allow the executive order to go forward in those red states and not in these blue state? It really, I would say federalism run terribly amuck.
Swati Rayasam: [00:30:00] You are tuned in to APEX Express on 94.1 KPFA, 89.3 KPFB in Berkeley,. 88.1. KFCF in Fresno and [email protected].
Annie Lee: But anyway, let’s see back off from the actual case because I think what we’re really talking about and what Chris has alluded to is, these cases about birthright citizenship, all the immigration policy is essentially determining who belongs here.
Who belongs here. That’s what immigration policy is at its heart. And we see that the right wing is weaponizing that question, who belongs here? And they are going after very vulnerable populations, undocumented people, people who are formerly incarcerated. So Bun if you can talk about how, is the formerly incarcerated community, like targeted immigrants, targeted for deportation?
What is going on with this community that I feel like most people might not know about? Thank [00:31:00] you.
Bun: Yes. For our folks that are incarcerated and former incarcerated, we are the easiest target for deportation because we are in custody and in California, CDCR colludes with ICE and on the day that we are to be paroled they’re at the door, cuffing us up and taking us to detention.
I’m glad to hear Harvey say, this is a time of fear for us and also opportunity. Right now, our whole community, the Southeast Asian community, mainly are very effective with immigration. In the past 25 years, mostly it was the Cambodian community that was being targeted and deported. At this moment, they are targeting, all of the Southeast Asian community, which historically was never deported because of the politics and agreements, of the Vietnamese community. And now the Laos community thats more concerning, that are being targeted for deportation. Trump have opened a new opportunity for us as a community to join [00:32:00] together and understand each other’s story, and understand each other’s fear.
Understand where we’re going about immigration. From birthright to crimmagration. A lot of times folks that are under crimmigration are often not spoken about because of our cultural shame, within our own family and also some of our community member felt safe because the political agreements.
Now that everybody’s in danger, we could stand together and understand each other’s issue and support each other because now we could see that history has repeated itself. Again, we are the scapegoat. We are here together fighting the same issue in different circumstances, but the same issue.
Annie Lee: But let me follow up. What are these, historical agreements that you’re talking about that used to feel like used to at least shield the community that now aren’t in place anymore?
Bun: Yeah. After the Clinton administration, uh, passed the IRA [immigration reform act] a lot of Southeast Asian nations were asked to [00:33:00] take their nationals back.
Even though we as 1.5 generation, which are the one that’s mostly impacted by this, had never even stepped into the country. Most of us were born in a refugee camp or we’re too young to even remember where they came from. Countries like Cambodian folded right away because they needed the financial aid and whatever, was offering them and immediately a three with a MOU that they will take their citizens since the early two thousands. Vietnam had a stronger agreement, which, they would agree to only take folks that immigrated here after 1995 and anybody before 1995, they would not take, and Laos have just said no until just a few months ago.
Laos has said no from when the, uh, the act was passed in 1995, the IRRIRA. Mm-hmm. So the big change we have now is Vietnam had signed a new MOU saying that they will take folks after 1995 [00:34:00] in the first administration and more recently, something that we never thought, happened so fast, was Laos agreeing to take their citizen back. And then the bigger issue about our Laos community is, it’s not just Laos folks. It’s the Hmong folks, the Myan folks, folks, folks that are still in danger of being returned back ’cause in the Vietnam War, they colluded and supported the Americans in the Vietnam War and were exiled out and kicked out, and were hunted down because of that.
So, at this moment, our folks are very in fear, especially our loud folks, not knowing what’s gonna happen to ’em.
Ke Lam: So for folks that don’t know what IRR means it means, illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act. It actually happened after the Oklahoma bombing, which was caused by a US citizen, a white US citizen. Yeah. But immigration law came out of it. That’s what’s crazy about it.
Annie Lee: Can you tell us, how is APSC advocating to protect the community right now because you [00:35:00] are vulnerable?
Ke Lam: So we had to censor a lot of our strategies. At first we used to use social media as a platform to show our work and then to support our community. But the government use that as a target to capture our people. So we stopped using social media. So we’ve been doing a lot of on the ground movement, such as trying to get local officials to do resolutions to push Governor Newsom to party more of our community members.
The other thing is we hold pardon workshops, so try and get folks to get, either get a pardon or vacate their sentence. So commute their sentence to where it become misdemeanor is not deportable anymore. Support letters for our folks writing support letters to send to the governor and also to city official, to say, Hey, please help pardon our community. I think the other thing we are actually doing is solidarity work with other organizations, African American community as well as Latin communities because we’ve been siloed for so long and we’ve been banned against each other, where people kept saying like, they’ve taken all our job when I grew up.
That’s what they told us, right? [00:36:00] But we, reality that’s not even true. It was just a wedge against our community. And then so it became the good versus bad narrative. So our advocacy is trying to change it it’s called re-storying you know, so retelling our story from people that are impacted, not from people, not from the one percenters in our own community.
Let’s say like we’re all good, do you, are there’s parts of our community that like that’s the bad people, right? But in reality, it affects us all. And so advocacy work is a lot of different, it comes in a lot of different shapes and forms, but definitely it comes from the community.
Annie Lee: Thanks, Ke. You teed me up perfectly because there is such a good versus bad immigrant narrative that takes root and is really hard to fight against. And that’s why this administration is targeting incarcerated and formerly incarcerated folks and another group that, are being targeted as people who are accused of crimes, including Venezuelan immigrants who are allegedly part of a gang.
So, Leti how is the government deporting [00:37:00] people by simply accusing them of being a part of a gang? Like how is that even possible?
Leti Volpp: Yeah, so one thing to think about is there is this thing called due process, right? It’s guaranteed under the constitution to all persons. It’s not just guaranteed to citizens. What does it mean? Procedural due process means there should be notice, there should be a hearing, there should be an impartial judge. You should have the opportunity to present evidence. You should have the opportunity to cross examinee. You should have the opportunity to provide witnesses.
Right? And basically Trump and his advisors are in real time actively trying to completely eviscerate due process for everybody, right? So Trump recently said, I’m doing what I was elected to do, remove criminals from our country. But the courts don’t seem to want me to do that.
We cannot give everyone a trial because to do so would take without exaggeration, 200 years. And then Stephen Miller said the judicial process is for Americans. [00:38:00] Immediate deportation is for illegal aliens. Okay. Quote unquote. Right. So I think one thing to notice is, as we’re hearing from all of our speakers are like the boxes, the categories into which people are put.
And what’s really disturbing is to witness how once somebody’s put in the box of being quote unquote criminal gang banger terrorists, like the American public seems to be like, oh, okay you can do what you want to this person. There’s a whole history of due process, which exists in the laws which was created.
And all of these early cases actually involved Asian immigrants, right? And so first they were saying there’s no due process. And then in a case called Yata versus Fisher, they said actually there is due process in deportation cases, there’s regular immigration court proceedings, which accord with all of these measures of due process.
There’s also a procedure called expedited removal, [00:39:00] which Congress invented in the nineties where they wanted to come up with some kind of very quick way to summarily exclude people. It was motivated by a 60 Minutes episode where they showed people coming to Kennedy Airport, who didn’t have any ID or visa or they had what seemed to be fake visas and they were let into the United States. And then they disappeared, right? According to the 60 Minutes episode. So basically Congress invented this procedure of, if you appear in the United States and you have no documents, or you have what an immigration inspector thinks are false documents, they can basically tell you, you can leave without this court hearing.
And the only fail safe is what’s called a credible fear screening. Where if you say, I want asylum, I fear persecution, I’m worried I might be tortured, then they’re supposed to have the screening. And if you pass that screening, you get put in regular removal [00:40:00] proceedings. So before the Trump administration took office, these expedited removal proceedings were happening within a hundred miles of the border against people who could not show that they had been in the United States for more than two weeks. In one of his first executive orders. Trump extended this anywhere in the United States against people who cannot show they’ve been in the United States for more than two years. So people are recommending that people who potentially are in this situation to carry documentation, showing they’ve been physically in the United States for over two years.
Trump is also using this Alien Enemies Act, which was basically a law Congress passed in 1798. It’s only been used three times in US history it’s a wartime law, right? So it was used in 1812, World War I, and World War II, and there’s supposed to be a declared war between the United States and a foreign nation or government, or [00:41:00] there’s an incursion threatened by a foreign nation or government, and the president makes public proclamation that all natives of this hostile nation, 14 and up shall be liable to be restrained and removed as alien enemies.
Okay? So we’re obviously not at war with the Venezuelan gang Tren de Aragua, right? They have not engaged in some kind of invasion or predatory incursion into the United States, but the Trump administration is claiming that they have and saying things like, oh, they’re secretly a paramilitary wing of the Venezuelan government, even as the Venezuelan government is like cracking down on them.
It’s not a quasi sovereign, entity. There’s no diplomatic relationships between Tren de Aragua and any other government. So these are legally and factually baseless arguments. Nonetheless, the administration has been basically taking people from Venezuela on the basis of tattoos. A tattoo of a crown of a [00:42:00] rose, right?
Even when experts have said there’s no relationship between what Tren de Aragua does and tattoos, right? And basically just kidnapping people and shipping them to the torture prison in El Salvador. As I’m sure you know of the case of Kimber Abrego Garcia, I’m sure we’ll hear more about this from Christopher.
There’s a very small fraction of the persons that have been sent to this prison in El Salvador who actually have any criminal history. And I will say, even if they had a criminal history, nobody should be treated in this manner and sent to this prison, right? I mean, it’s unbelievable that they’ve been sent to this prison allegedly indefinitely.
They’re paying $6 million a year to hold people there. And then the United States government is saying, oh, we don’t have any power to facilitate or effectuate their return. And I think there’s a struggle as to what to call this. It’s not just deportation. This is like kidnapping. It’s rendition. And there are people, there’s like a particular person like who’s completely [00:43:00] disappeared. Nobody knows if they’re alive or dead. There are many people in that prison. People don’t know if they’re alive or dead. And I’m sure you’ve heard the stories of people who are gay asylum seekers, right?
Who are now in this situation. There are also people that have been sent to Guantanamo, people were sent to Panama, right? And so I think there questions for us to think about like, what is this administration doing? How are they trying to do this in a spectacular fashion to instill fear? As we know as well, Trump had said oh, like I think it would be great when he met with Bukele if you build four more or five more facilities. I wanna house homegrown people in El Salvador, right? So this is all the more importance that we stick together, fight together, don’t, as key was saying, don’t let ourselves be split apart. Like we need a big mass coalition right? Of people working together on this.
Annie Lee: So thank you leti and I think you’re absolutely right. These Venezuelans were kidnapped [00:44:00] in the middle of the night. I mean, 2:00 AM 3:00 AM pulled out of bed, forced to sign documents they did not understand because these documents were only available in English and they speak Spanish, put on planes sent to El Salvador, a country they’ve never been to. The government didn’t even have to prove anything. They did not have to prove anything, and they just snatch these people and now they’re disappeared. We do have, for now the rule of law. And so Chris, there are judges saying that, Kimber Abrego Garcia has to be returned.
And despite these court orders, the administration is not complying. So where does that leave us, Chris, in terms of rule of law and law in general?
Christopher Lapinig: Yeah. So, I’m gonna make a little personal. So I graduated from Yale Law School in 2013, and you might know some of my classmates. One of my classmates is actually now the Vice President of the United States. Oh man. [00:45:00] Bless you. As well as the second lady, Usha Vance. And a classmate of mine, a good friend Sophia Nelson, who’s a trans and queer, was recently on, I believe CNN answering a question about, I believe JD Vice President Vance, was asked about the administration’s sort of refusal to comply with usual orders.
Yeah. As we’re talking about here and JD had said something like, well, courts, judges can’t tell the president what he can’t do, and sophia, to their credit, said, you know, I took constitutional law with JD, and, we definitely read Marbury Versus Madison together, and that is the semial sort of Supreme Court case that established that the US Supreme Court is the ultimate decider, arbiter, interpreter, of the US Constitution. And so is basically saying, I know JD knows better. He’s lying essentially, in all of his [00:46:00] communications about, judicial orders and whether or not a presidential administration has to comply , with these orders.
So, to get to your question though, it is of course unprecedented. Really. It is essentially, you know, it’s not, if we not already reached. The point of a constitutional crisis. It is a constitutional crisis. I think it’s become clear to many of us that, democracy in the US has operated in large part, and has relied on, on, on the good faith in norms, that people are operating good faith and that presidents will comply when, a federal judge issues an injunction or a decision.
It kind of leaves us in an interesting, unprecedented situation. And it means that, lawyers, we will continue to litigate and, go to court, but we can’t, lawyers will not save the country or, immigrants or communities. We need to think extensively and creatively.
[00:47:00] About how to ensure, that the rule of law is preserved because, this administration is not, abiding by the longstanding norms of compliance and so we have to think about, protests, advocacy, legislatively. I don’t have the answers necessarily, but we can’t rely on the courts to fix these problems really.
Annie Lee: Oof. That was very real, Chris. Thank you. But I will say that when there is resistance, and we’ve seen it from students who are speaking up and advocating for what they believe is right and just including Palestinian Liberation, that there is swift retaliation. And I think that’s partly because they are scared of student speech and movement and organizing.
But this is a question to all of you. So if not the courts and if the administration is being incredibly retaliatory, and discriminatory in terms of viewpoint discrimination, in people and what people are saying and they’re scouring our social [00:48:00] media like, Ke warns, like what can everyday people do to fight back?
That’s for all of you. So I don’t know who, which of you wants to take it first?
Ke Lam: Oh man. I say look at history, right? Even while this new president, I wanna say like, this dude is a convicted felon, right? Don’t be surprised at why we country is in the way it is, because this dude’s a convicted felon, a bad business person, right?
And only care about the billionaires, you know? So I’m not surprised how this country’s ending up the way it is ’cause it is all about money. One way that we can stand up is definitely band together, marched on the streets. It’s been effective. You look at the civil right movement, that’s the greatest example.
Now you don’t have to look too far. We can actually, when we come together, they can’t fight us all. Right? It is, and this, it’s like you look at even nature in the cell. When things band together, the predators cannot attack everyone. Right? They probably could hit a few of us, but in the [00:49:00] long run, we could change the law. I think another thing is we, we, as the people can march to the courts and push the courts to do the job right, despite what’s going on., We had judges that been arrested for doing the right thing, right? And so, no matter what, we have to stand strong just despite the pressure and just push back.
Annie Lee: Thanks, Ke. Chris?
Christopher Lapinig: What this administration is doing is you know, straight out of the fascist playbook. They’re working to, as we all know, shock and awe everyone, and make Americans feel powerless. Make them feel like they have no control, make them feel overwhelmed. And so I think first and foremost, take care of yourself , in terms of your health, in terms of your physical health, your mental health.
Do what you can to keep yourself safe and healthy and happy. And do the same for your community, for your loved ones, your friends and family. And then once you’ve done that do what you can in terms of your time, treasure, [00:50:00] talent to, to fight back. Everyone has different talents, different levels of time that they can afford. But recognize that this is a marathon and not necessarily a sprint because we need everyone, in this resistance that we can get.
Annie Lee: Thank you, Chris.
Leti Volpp: There was a New Yorker article called, I think it was How to Be a Dissident which said, before recently many Americans, when you ask them about dissidents, they would think of far off countries. But they interviewed a lot of people who’d been dissidents in authoritarian regimes. And there were two, two things in that article that I’m taking with me among others. One of them said that in surveying like how authoritarian regimes are broken apart, like only 3.5% of the population has to oppose what’s going on. The other thing was that you should find yourself a political home where you can return to frequently. It’s almost like a religious or [00:51:00] spiritual practice where you go and you get refreshed and you’re with like-minded people. And so I see this event, for example as doing that, and that we all need to find and nurture and foster spaces like this. Thank you.
Annie Lee: Bun, do you have any parting words?
Bun: Yeah. Like Ke said, to fight back, getting together, understanding issues and really uplifting, supporting, urging our own communities, to speak Up. You know, there’s folks that can’t speak out right now because of fear and danger, but there are folks here that can speak out and coming here learning all our situation really give the knowledge and the power to speak out for folks that can’t speak down [unclear] right now. So I appreciate y’all
Annie Lee: love that bun. I was gonna say the same thing. I feel like there is a special obligation for those of us who are citizens, citizens cannot be deported. Okay?
Citizens have special rights based [00:52:00] on that status. And so there’s a special responsibility on those of us who can speak, and not be afraid of retaliation from this government. I would also urge you all even though it’s bleak at the federal level, we have state governments, we have local governments.
You have a university here who is very powerful. And you have seen, we’ve seen that the uni that the administration backs down, sometimes when Harvard hit back, they back down and that means that there is a way to push the administration, but it does require you all putting pressure on your schools, on your local leaders, on your state leaders to fight back.
My boss actually, Vin taught me this. You know, you think that politicians, lead, politicians do not lead politicians follow. Politicians follow and you all lead when you go out further, you give them cover to do the right thing. And so the farther you push and the more you speak out against this administration, the more you give them courage to do the right thing.
And so you absolutely have to do that. A pardon [00:53:00] is critical. It is critical for people who are formerly incarcerated to avoid the immigration system and deportation. And so do that. Talk to your family, talk to your friends.
My parents, despite being immigrants, they’re kinda old school. Okay guys, they’re like, you know, birthright citizenship does seem kind of like a loophole. Why should people like get like citizenship? I’m like, mom, we, I am a birthright citizen. Like, um, And I think for Asian Americans in particular, there is such a rich history of Asian American civil rights activism that we don’t talk about enough, and maybe you do at Berkeley with ethnic studies and professors like Mike Chang. But, this is totally an interracial solidarity movement. We helped bring about Wong Kim Ark and there are beneficiaries of every shade of person.
There’s Yik wo, and I think about this all the time, which is another part of the 14th Amendment equal protection. Which black Americans fought for that in San Francisco. [00:54:00] Chinatown made real what? What does equal protection of the laws even mean? And that case was Seminole. You’ve got Lao versus Nichols.
Another case coming out of San Francisco. Chinatown about English learner rights, the greatest beneficiary of Lao v Nichols, our Spanish speakers, they’re Spanish speaking children in schools who get access to their education regardless of the language they speak. And so there are so many moments in Asian American history that we should be talking about, that we should educate our parents and our families about, because this is our moment.
Now, this is another one of those times I wanna pass it to Mike and Harvey for questions, and I’m so excited to hear about them.
Mike and Harvey: Wow, thank you so much. That’s a amazing, panel and thank you for facilitating annie’s wanna give it of a great value in terms of that spiritual home aspect. Norm how does your great grandfather’s , experience in resistance, provide help for us [00:55:00] today?
Norman Wong: Well, I think he was willing to do it. It only took one, if no one did it, this, we wouldn’t be having the discussion because most of us would’ve never been here. And we need to come together on our common interests and put aside our differences because we all have differences. And if we tried, to have it our way for everything, we’ll have it no way for us.
We really need to, to bond and bind together and become strong as a people. And I don’t mean as a racial or a national group. Mm-hmm. I mean, we’re Americans now. We’re Americans here think of us as joining with all Americans to make this country the way it’s supposed to be. The way [00:56:00] we grew up, the one that we remember, this is not the America I grew up believing in.
I’m glad he stood up. I’m proud that he did that. He did that. Him doing that gave me something that I’ve never had before. A validation of my own life. And so yes, I’m proud of him.
Wong Kim Ark is for all of us. It’s not for me to own. Yeah. Wow. Really not. Thank you so much. Wong Kim Ark is for all of us. And, and , talking about the good , that we have here and, the optimism that Harvey spoke about, the opportunity, even in a moment of substantial danger. Thank you so much everybody.
Mike and Harvey: This was amazing and really appreciate sharing this space with you and, building community and solidarity.
Ke Lam: But is there any, can I leave with a chant before we close off? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much. So this is a chant that we use on the ground all the time. You guys probably heard it. When I said when we fight, you guys said we [00:57:00] win when we fight. We win when we fight, we win. When we fight, we win up.
Swati Rayasam: Thanks so much for tuning into APEX Express. Please check out our website at kpfa.org/program/apexexpress to find out more about the show tonight and to find out how you can take direct action. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world.
Your voices are important. APEX Express is produced by Miko Lee, along with Jalena Keene-Lee, Ayame Keene-Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar, Anuj Vaida, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Ravi Grover, and me Swati Rayasam. Thank you so much to the team at KPFA for their support, and have a good [00:58:00] night.

The post APEX Express – 6.26.25-Deport. Exclude. Revoke. Imprison – Wong Kim Ark is for All of Us appeared first on KPFA.
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APEX Express – 6.19.25 We Are All Connected
19 giu· KPFA - APEX Express
A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.
Tonight’s show is June 19th. We are all connected. We are talking with Asian and Asian American Children’s book authors. PowerLeeGirls host Miko Lee talks with Chi Thai and Livia Blackburne about the power of storytelling, maternal heritage, generational trauma, and much more.
Title: We Are All Connected Show Transcripts
Opening: [00:00:00] Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express.

Ayame Keane-Lee: [00:01:17] Welcome to Apex Express. Tonight’s show is June 19th. We are all connected. We are talking with Asian and Asian American Children’s book authors. PowerLeeGirls host Miko Lee talks with Chi Thai and Livia Blackburne about the power of storytelling, maternal heritage, generational trauma, and much more. First, we want to start by wishing everyone a happy Juneteenth, Juneteenth commemorates, an end to slavery and the emancipation of Black Americans after the Civil War. In 1865, 2 years after the Emancipation Proclamation, enslaved people in Galveston, Texas finally learned of their freedom. Juneteenth marks the day the last enslaved people learned of their freedom. Though outright slavery became illegal, the systematic oppression of African Americans continues to this day. We see that show up in almost every aspect of American culture, from the high rate of infant mortality to the over punishing of Black children in schools, to police brutality, to incarceration. We must continue to recognize the importance of championing Black lives and lifting up Black voices. We are all connected. June 19th is also an important day in Asian American history. In 1982 in Detroit, Vincent Chin was at a bar celebrating his bachelor party prior to his wedding the next day. Ronald Ebens, a white auto worker, and his stepson Michael Nitz taunted Vincent with racial epithets. They thought he was Japanese and were angry about the Japanese rise in the auto industry. When Vincent left the bar later, the two men attacked and killed Vincent with a baseball bat. He was 27 years old. Ronald Ebens never did time for this murder. Ronald Ebens is 85 years old now. Ebens not only skirted prosecution, he has used bankruptcy and homesteading laws in Nevada to avoid a wrongful death civil suit settlement. Ordered by the court in 1987 to pay $1.5 million to Chin’s family, the Chin estate has received nothing. Lily Chin, Vincent’s mom could have stayed silent about the racist attack on her son. Instead she spoke out. She took a courageous stance to highlight this most painful moment in her life. In doing so, she helped ignite a new generation of Asian American activists working for civil rights and social justice. We find ourselves in a new wave of activism as our communities band together to work against the injustices of the current regime. And what does this have to do with children’s books? It is all connected. We highlight children’s books by Asian and Asian American authors because we want our next generation of children to know and appreciate their own heritage. We want them to proudly represent who they are so that they can work in solidarity with other peoples. Our struggle is interwoven. As Grace Lee Boggs said, “History is a story not only of the past, but of the future.” Thank you for joining us on apex express. Enjoy the show.

Miko Lee: [00:04:24] First off. Let’s take a listen to one of Byron Au Young’s compositions called “Know Your Rights” This is part of the trilogy of the Activist Songbook. This multi-lingual rap, give steps to know what to do when ICE officers come to your door.

MUSIC

That was “Know Your Rights” performed by Jason Chu with lyrics by Aaron Jeffries and composed by Byron Au Yong Welcome, Chi Thai to Apex Express.

Chi Thai: [00:07:13] Hello. I’m really happy to be joining you, Miko.
Miko Lee: [00:07:16] I’m really happy to meet you and learn about you as an artist, as a filmmaker, as a children’s book author. And I wanna first start with a personal question, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?
Chi Thai: [00:07:30] Ooh, what a great question. You know what? I love being asked stuff that hasn’t been asked kind of before. I mean, there’s a kinda really kinda natural answer to that, which is, you know, family are my people. Of course. 100%. And certainly, you know, the reason why I’m talking to you today, you know, in regard to the, to the book, you know, it’s about my family’s journey. But I found, and I don’t know if this is. Somewhat to do with, you know, being a child of two cultures and you know, being a child of the diaspora that you really have to kind of find your own family too. ’cause I suppose I grew up feeling, I didn’t quite relate to maybe my parents in a way that, you know, you normally would if you weren’t part of the diaspora. And I felt estranged from my birth country and I didn’t really feel like British either a lot of the time. So in terms of like, who are my people? I’ve gathered those people as I’ve kind of grown up and it’s, it’s a kind of strange feeling too. I feel like it’s taken me a really long to grow up and to figure out who I am. And I suppose that’s why, you know, the people that I have a really, a lot of people that have come, kinda later in my life, I actually have no friends in my childhood as an example of that. I’ve had to kind of find these people as I’ve grown up, but it’s taken me a long time to grow up because growing up in the UK there wasn’t any literature to read about what it was like to be Asian. And British, to be a refugee and things like that. So it just took me longer and I then, as a result, it just took me longer to find my tribe. but I have it now, but it’s still work in progress. That was a very convoluted answer. I’m very sorry Miko.

Miko Lee: [00:09:15] No, it wasn’t. No worries. It’s fine. And what legacy do you carry with you?

Chi Thai: [00:09:19] Kind of an extension to that answer, I think when you’re an artist, practicing your voice, figuring out your voice, can take a while. And I think I’ve only really started maybe the last like five to 10 years at the most really figured out what I want my legacy to be. The things I wanna talk about are really about s tories from the diaspora, certainly, and about community and healing. These are the things I think that are really important to me, especially when we talk about maybe coming from struggle. I don’t feel it’s enough to be an artist today and just talk about struggle. I want to talk about justice as well. And justice really is about healing, you know?

Miko Lee: [00:10:00] Oh, that’s beautiful. Can you talk a little bit more about that healing and what that means to you and how that shows up in your work?

Chi Thai: [00:10:07] A couple years ago, no, not even that long ago, I produced a, a feature film. This is probably the best example for it, but I produced a feature film called Raging Grace, which we called it Horror with a small H and it. Basically took the story of what it was like to be, undocumented Filipina in the uk who was also a mother. And I think if that film had been made 10 years ago, it would just shown how hard her life was, and unrelentingly. So, and I think the reason why Raising Grace is so special is it goes beyond the trauma, it takes us to a place of justice, of being able to speak out for someone who has felt invisible, to be visible for someone who’s not. Had a voice, to have a voice and to begin that kind of healing process of sticking up for herself, making a change transforming herself from maybe the good immigrant to the bad immigrant and things like that. I think that’s a really great example and I think I read a really wonderful thing. It might have been in a Guardian article where we, so a lot of my work is around, inclusion representation of like diasporic stories. And I think when you have, when you exist in the poverty of like representation, I. the solution to that is plentitude. I think that Viet Thanh Nguyen probably said that, so I don’t wanna take credit for it. He comes up with so many wonderful things, and that’s a wonderful thing to be able to move from poverty, like to plentitude and that be the solution, is kinda really wonderful. So I enjoy being really prolific. I enjoy supporting artists to be able to do their work. So as a community, we can also be prolific and I wanna support, narratives that. Take us beyond a place of struggle and trauma to a place of like healing and justice and so forth.

Miko Lee: [00:11:57] Your work crosses so many genres. You were just mentioning how that film was kind of a horror film and, and then you’ve done these kind of dreamy animation pieces and then now this children’s book. Do you select the genre and the format and the medium, or does it select you?

Chi Thai: [00:12:16] Oh, I think the story chooses it. I like 100% believe that. I just actually was thinking about this ’cause I was doing an interview on something else, people, often ask about the creative process and I, can only speak for my own. But usually when I get an idea for a story, the general shape of it comes almost like really well formed. There’s a sense of a lready kinda what genre it’ll be. There’s a sense of the character, there’s a sense of the journey and all these things. I felt the same about, writing The Endless Sea I knew it would be from the voice of a child. This probably sounds like my creative process is terrible, but it was just. This is how it was going to be. That kind of part was writing itself, or at least I feel that it’d been writing itself like that in my subconscious for many, many years before it kind of surfacing and writing. Like the writing bit is just the tip of the iceberg at the end of the day. there wasn’t like a kind of decision about that. the story in that sense was quite intact. So I often feel like the story is demanding something about kind genre and for, for Raging Grace ’cause I’ve talked about this a lot, not just in listen to me, but other things. But we always said like if you are an an undocumented person, every breath you take is taken in a hostile environment. It’s so natural for it to be a horror. So there’s not a sense that you kinda decide that it’s like that is the very reality of someone who’s going, you know, that’s their lived experience. And if you’re going to represent that truthfully, it will be through the prism of horror. And I suppose that’s how I think about genre. the story is kind of telling you what it needs to tell its emotional truth. and I felt that way, with The Endless Sea same thing with the Raging Grace, with Lullaby. And I think you talked about The Promise, I suppose I, with The Promise, which is an adaptation I had less choice about that because that was a book and it was a adapted into an animation. I’ve heard Nicola, who’s the author of the book, talk about that and she talks about like the story coming to her in a dream and tiptoeing down her arm coming onto the page, she like describes it really beautifully. so maybe our processes are the same. It feels that way. there’s not long deliberations. I mean, that’s not to say the writing process isn’t difficult. It is. But that, I’ve never found the, [genre] the difficulty or the bit that’s required a lot of, I don’t know soul searching with it.

Miko Lee: [00:14:28] So with that being said, how did Endless Sea your latest children’s book? How did that tiptoe into your imagination?

Chi Thai: [00:14:36] This is a strange one because this is probably the closest thing to like, almost autobiographical work. What I can say is like, it’s the true story o f how I and my family, which would’ve been at the time my mom and dad, my older sister, me, how we fled Vietnam after the fall of an Saigon. we actually left quite late we left in 1979 w hen things were tr were getting truly, truly, truly, quite terrible. And, this was very much a last resort. I think my parents would try to make things work, but realized that they couldn’t. This journey that we took on these, boats that were made badly, made poorly, that many of which sank has become almost like the genesis story of our family. It’s like it’s a big, it has a long shadow, right? Ever since you know I, it is like the first story that I can remember. It’s one of the few stories my mom would tell me again and again when we, when they see their old friends, it’s something they talk about. So it’s something that has happened to it to us, but it’s such a big thing that it’s just, echoed In my life growing up, as I’ve you know, got older and older, and the wonderful thing about having a story kinda live with you eventually it’s in your blood and in your bones, but also if it’s a thing that’s kinda shared with you again and again, you actually build up this, there’s something about the repetition of it, and then every time you hear it told from an uncle or a family friend or from your mom, a new little detail is embroidered that someone adds. So I’ve kinda lived with this story for 40 plus years and I’ve been collecting all these little things about it all this time and all that time it was, I think, kind of just writing itself, you know? You know, it was doing all that work before I actually put like pen to paper. Um, yeah.

Miko Lee: [00:16:31] Was there a catalyst or something that made you actually put the pen to paper?

Chi Thai: [00:16:36] That’s really interesting. You know, I probably don’t mind it is probably something really banal like. I think I probably wrote it during Covid and I had more time. Um, I think there are probably be some bigger forces in place. And you know what, I can tell you what it is actually if I’m, I’m forcing myself to think and examine a bit closer so when this is totally true. So I remember hearing the news about Viet Thanh Nguyen win winning the Pulitzer for The Sympathizer. And it made such a mark on me and I kind of felt, wow, someone from our community has achieved this incredible thing. And I thought, why? Why now? Like, and I was like, well, you know what? It’s probably taken our community certain amount of time to come of age, to develop not just the abilities to write, to create, to make art, but also to have possibly the relationships or networks in place to be able to then make the art and get it out into the world. And I kind of felt when he was able to do that and came of age, I kind of felt there was going to be like other people from the kind of diasporic Vietnamese community that would also start to flourish. And that made me feel really good. About probably being a bit older than the average kind of artist, like making their, kinda like their pieces and everything and saying, you know what? My time can be now. It’s okay. And I just find it just really inspiring that, you know our community was kind of growing, growing up, coming of age and being able to do these, these things And I kind of felt like it had given me the permission, I suppose the, the confidence to go, “Oh this story that I’ve been carrying my whole life, which I don’t really see a version of out there I can write that and now I can write it and I’m the right person to write it.” And I had just done The Promise so I had a relationship with Walker. I was like, I have a, you know, a relationship with the publisher. I feel my writing is matured. Like I can do this. And so it was like a culmination and, you know, convergence of those things. And, but I do remember having that thought thinking, “This is a good time to be alive in our community ’cause we’re actually able to make our art and get it out there now.” I, I felt it was like a real watershed moment really.

Miko Lee: [00:19:11] What made you decide to do it in this format as a Little Kid’s Children’s Illustrated book? We were talking earlier about how to, to me, this is the first more realistic version of a boat people experience in a very little kid’s voice. What made you decide to do it in this style?

Chi Thai: [00:19:33] So interesting. At the same time, I was writing The Endless Sea. I was writing also the script for a short film, which is called Lullaby, which is takes an incident that happened on my boat but expresses it as a film, as a little kinda horror kinda drama, but a kid cannot watch that. It’s like too terrifying. Um, and I wrote, you know, The Endless Sea at the same time. And again, I can’t, it’s really hard for me to articulate. I just knew it was gonna be a kid’s book, like, and I knew it’d be written from the voice of a kid, and I didn’t actually, can I say I didn’t even ascribe a particular kind of value to that. It wasn’t until I had started conversations with the publisher they’re like, you know, we see like there’s a really high, like this is really great that it’s written in the voice of the kid. It somehow gives it something else. Something more is something kind of special. I didn’t set out to like, overthink, like what was the most effective way to tell this story? I, I think I just told the story as honestly as I could, you know, with the words that I felt that, you know, I had in me to de, you know, to describe it. In the most authentic way to, to me. And like I say, at the same time, I knew, like I knew that was a kid’s book. There was another part of that I wanted to express that was really important to me and that was survivor’s guilt. But that I felt was like, that was a horror, so that was really not gonna be suitable for kids. So I was definitely thinking about lots of things to do with the same subject of the same time, but they were definitely being expressed in different ways. And again, Lullaby came to me very kind of quickly, almost fully formed. And I knew, you know, it would be a ghost story. I knew it would be the story of a mother and things like that. And I often maybe, you know, I should, I, I should interrogate more, but I kinda, I take these kinda. These ideas, which are quite well shaped and, and then I just like lean into them more and more and more. But they, the way they arrive it, I’ve kinda, I, I can see a lot of what is already about to unfold.

Miko Lee: [00:21:43] And do you still dream about that experience of being on the boat as a kid?

Chi Thai: [00:21:52] It’s, it’s a really difficult thing to explain because you know that that happened now so long ago, and I’ve probably heard the story thousands of times. I’ve watched all the terrible Hollywood movies, I’ve seen all the news clippings, I’ve watched all the archive. I’ve listened to, you know, people talk, and I have my own memories and I look at photographs and I have memories of looking at photographs. I feel like, you know, my memory is really unreliable, but what it is instead is it’s this, this kind of, kind of tapestry of, you know, of the story of memories, of, you know, images as I grow up of hearing the story, like all coming together. One of the things I did when I wrote, I wrote The Endless Sea, is I then went back to my mom and I did a recorded interview with her ’cause I was really worried about how unreliable my memory might be. And I interviewed her and I asked a lot of questions and I said, and I, it was like, you know, in the way I would’ve just like listened to the story quite passively before this time I interviewed her and I asked a lot of questions about details and all sorts of things. ’cause I really wanted to be able to represent things, you know, as factually as I could. And that was kinda one of my kinda kind of fact checking kinda exercises I did ’cause I was, I was much quite worried about how unreliable my memory was about it all. And you know, what is, what is a memory of a memory of memory, like, you know, especially when it comes to thinking about that time on the boat and the feelings I had. Yeah. So, you know,

Miko Lee: [00:23:34] and you were so young also to

Chi Thai: [00:23:37] Totally 100%. And sometimes, I don’t know, you know, is it a memory of a memory? Is it a dream of a dream?

Miko Lee: [00:23:44] Mm-hmm.

Chi Thai: [00:23:44] Or just some, yeah.

Miko Lee: [00:23:46] Was there anything that your mom said that surprised you?

Chi Thai: [00:23:50] Yeah. Um, she didn’t realize how bad it was gonna be and she was like, “God, if it, I’d known how terrifying it was I dunno if I, we could have done it.” I think there’s a certain amount of naivety involved and I suppose that surprised me. You know? ’cause we know already now how bad it was. Um, so things like that surprised me.

Miko Lee: [00:24:15] and your mom, the dedication of the book is to your mom. What does she think when she first read it?

Chi Thai: [00:24:22] I’ve got a funny story. My parents, you know, they, we left, they were in their early twenties and I think it was, you know, the escape was hard for them, but settling in new country was really hard for them. That’s. That’s been kind of their struggle. They had to work so hard, so many hours to kind of, you know, give us a great life. And, I think a lot of that meant they weren’t people that could go out, enjoy, enjoy movies, look at art, read lots of literature and things like that. They’re very, very simple, very working class. Simple life or working class kinda life. Very much all about, uh, the work. Um, and I remember when I had a, the publisher had made like a mockup of the book and I gave it to my mum to read ’cause I wanted her to be happy about it too, and she’s probably been my toughest critic. I think everything I’ve done, she hasn’t really liked, to be honest. Um, and when I gave her the mockup to read. She went, “Yeah,” but she said it in such a way I knew what she meant was Yeah, that’s right. You know, that’s the truth. That’s the, you know, the book isn’t the testimony, but it felt like she was saying yeah. It was like the simple kind of approval. It wasn’t like a lot

Miko Lee: [00:25:50] That is the most Asian mom’s approval ever.

Chi Thai: [00:25:54] It’s so funny, like people say to me, oh Chi, it’s such a beautiful book. Oh, the writing so lit, like lyrical. It’s stripped back, it’s elegant. Like, you know, Viet Thanh Nguyen , like God bless his like consults, gave me a comment to put in the book, said these wonderful things, and my mom goes, “yeah.”. You know, it made me laugh at the time, but I knew what it meant. And I also was old enough, I was mature enough, you know, God, if she’d given me that, if I’d been 20 written that I might have cried and my heart might have broken. Right. But I, I knew I had, I’ve so much compassion, you know, for my parents. Mm-hmm. And people like my parents, what they’ve been through and, you know, but

Miko Lee: [00:26:38] That was incredibly high praise for her.

Chi Thai: [00:26:40] It was, I couldn’t have asked more.

Miko Lee: [00:26:47] Oh, I totally get that. I think that’s such an Asian thing. That is so funny.

Chi Thai: [00:26:53] It is, it is. I didn’t feel bad. I, I remember showing her Lullaby, um, and she didn’t like it at all.

Miko Lee: [00:27:02] What did she say? What is her not like voice? What did she say to that?

Chi Thai: [00:27:05] Oh, she. Well, firstly, she, well, the, the film is almost silent because basically it tells a story. It’s inspired by a mother that was on our boat who lost her baby on the border crossing, and I was very much ever, for as long as I knew about this woman’s story, I was like, I was very much haunted by it, and I was haunted by, you know, the fact that that’s how she felt and her guilt. Over losing her baby on this journey. And I knew, I knew I wanted to tell her story. ’cause one of the things I feel very strongly about is when you are on the losing side. So I’m from South Vietnam, like that’s not the, you know, that’s not the story that’s told, the story is told of who triumphs at the end of the day. And I was just like all those people that we lost at sea, this mother, her baby. The stories kind of aren’t told. So I kind of felt really strongly that this was somehow a very creative way to put down like a, an historical record like this happened. And actually I found out after making the film that five babies were lost in our boat, not just one.

Miko Lee: [00:28:24] Wow. So what did she say, your mom say?

Chi Thai: [00:28:28] Yes. So I made this film, which was for the most part, a silent film. This is a woman that’s shut down. She barely speaks anymore. She is living with the guilt ever. You know, when she was on the boat before her baby died, she sang a lullaby, and ever since then, she hasn’t been able to speak again. And then we find out that she has been haunted by the ghost of her child that she lost. And then a bit too, you know, to kind of free herself from that. She, she actually sings, you know, the, the film culminates in her singing the Luby one last time. S saying Goodbye finally being able to move beyond her Gild and I Griffin, saying goodbye and hoping she’s able to, you know, progress. So I made a film about that was largely silence except for this lullaby, and my mum watched it. She went, next time you make a film, you know you need more words. I was just like, oh, I think my heart probably did crumple off a bit a bit at that point.

Miko Lee: [00:29:30] Aw.

Chi Thai: [00:29:31] You know? Um, but yeah. But yeah, it’s okay. It’s okay because you know what? My mom doesn’t get to see stuff like that very often. So sometimes she doesn’t have the wider, and this is why, I mean, like, the life that she’s had, you know, hasn’t been one where she’s been able to surround herself with, oh, I’m so lucky. You know, my life has been so different, but it’s been different. Different because of, you know what she’s, what she’s done for us, so it’s okay. I can take it on the chin when she says my film doesn’t have enough dialogue in it.

Miko Lee: [00:30:04] I love that. For you, have you had conversations with your mom about your life as an artist, and what are her thoughts on that?

Chi Thai: [00:30:16] Well say. So I, so my mom, I don’t really like, you know, she’s probably not that into it. I’ll be honest about being an artist. I can understand why she wants you to have a good life. And I would say for the most part, being an artist is, is a, is a tough life because it’s hard to make, you know, the, the pennies work, right?

Miko Lee: [00:30:44] She wants stability for you, right?

Chi Thai: [00:30:45] Yeah, exactly. But she’s made a peace with it. And basically what happened, I think all the best story is gonna be about my mom, right? Is that she basically, I, I, um, I have a partner, we’ve been together for 15 years. Um, he’s a really nice guy and he has a reliable job and we have two kids together and i,

Miko Lee: [00:31:08] So that makes it okay.

Chi Thai: [00:31:10] So yeah, this is what I was saying. So she said to me like. It doesn’t really matter what you do now. ’cause she, you are already peaked. You’re somebody’s wife. We’re not married. But she told everyone in Vietnam we were married ’cause she couldn’t cope with this not being like having kids out of wedlock. In her head. She’s rewritten that we are married. Right. She’s like, you are married, you’re somebody’s wife and you mother, it doesn’t get better than that. So if you are an artist or if you’re a filmmaker, whatever, it doesn’t matter. ’cause nothing can be better than that. Right. So she’s accepted on the basis that I’ve already fulfilled, kind of my promise.

Miko Lee: [00:31:46] Wow. Interesting.

Chi Thai: [00:31:50] And she means that in the nicest possible way.

Miko Lee: [00:31:52] Yeah.

Chi Thai: [00:31:52] That she feels like you have a home, you have stability, you have someone who loves you, you know, you have a, a purpose in life, but really her value, you know, the way, I think, the way she measures my value is like, that’s how she looks at it. The, the art is something else.

Miko Lee: [00:32:10] Well, I really appreciate you sharing your art with us in the world and your various, um, genres and styles. And I’m wondering how our audience can find out more about your work. Clearly we’ll put links to where people can buy the book and let’s see, but how do they find out more about your films?

Chi Thai: [00:32:28] Um, so that like, because it is the 50th anniversary of the end of the Vietnam War in 2025. Actually the very anniversary of that is the tomorrow, the 30th, April, right? Um, you can watch Lullaby on Altar, which is a YouTube channel. Um, and I can give you the link for it. Rating Grace is on Paramount Plus if you want to, if you’ve got Paramount Plus, but you can also buy it from all the usual kind of places too. Um, and you know, and we’ll see us from all great book stockists, I imagine in, in the us.

Miko Lee: [00:33:07] Thank you so much. Um, I’d love to get, I’d love for you to send me the link so I could put ’em in the show notes. I really appreciate chatting with you today. Um, is there anything else you’d like to share?

Chi Thai: [00:33:19] Um, no, I think, I think that’s good. Your, your questions are so good. Mika, I’m already like, kinda like processing them all. Uh, yes.

Miko Lee: [00:33:30] Well, it was a delight to chat with you and to learn more about your artistic vision, and my wishes are that you continue to grow and feel blessed no matter what your mama says, because deep down, she’s still proud of you. Even if she doesn’t say it out loud.

Chi Thai: [00:33:47] I believe it. I totally believe it.

Miko Lee: [00:33:50] Yay. Thank you so much for spending time with us on Apex Express.Next up, listen to stay, go from dark heart, a concert narrative by singer and songwriter Golda Sargento.

MUSIC

That was the voice of Golda Sargento from the new Filipino futurism punk rock sci-fi dark heart. Welcome, Livia Blackburne Children’s book, author of Nainai’s Mountain. Welcome to Apex Express.

Livia Blackburne: [00:38:56] Thank you so much for having me.

Miko Lee: [00:38:58] I wanna start with a personal question, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?

Livia Blackburne: [00:39:05] I am Chinese American, and so I carry the stories of my grandparents who fled China to Taiwan, fled that war. And I also carry the stories of my parents and myself who immigrated. To America, and I am, I grew up in New Mexico, so I have fond memories of green chili and new Mexican food. I went to college, Harvard and MIT on the east coast. So I’ve got a bit of that kind of ivory tower. And now I’m in LA and, you know, my people are, my family and my community, the writing community here. So I, I’m a big mix. Yes.

Miko Lee: [00:39:44] What legacy do you carry with you?

Livia Blackburne: [00:39:47] I mentioned a bit of my grandparents and my parents. What they went through in the war in China, and then my parents and me coming here. the experience of being here in two worlds, coming from Taiwan having that cultural background and also, growing up in the United States. The culture I’ve been surrounded with here as well.

Miko Lee: [00:40:06] Thank you so much for sharing. Can you tell us about your new illustrated children’s book? Nainai’s Mountain. What inspired this work?

Livia Blackburne: [00:40:14] The story of this book actually started with another book that is coming out in a couple years that actually I can’t share too much about. My grandparents fled the war in China and then my. Parents grew up in Taiwan and I wanted to preserve that family story. My parents are getting older. So I started doing oral interviews with my parents about their childhood, what it was like, growing up. I wouldn’t say they weren’t refugees in Taiwan. It’s a very complicated political situation, but they were transplants to Taiwan, and what it was like growing up there, their daily life. What kind of things they did when they were a child, their pastimes, I wanted to preserve their stories and I got a lot of great material., A lot of that is going into a novel that I’m currently working on. But also as I worked on it, there were so many great details that I thought would be really good in a picture book as well. Also, I’m a mother now. I have an 8-year-old daughter, and she is half Caucasian, half Asian. She has never gone to Taiwan before and I. As I’m writing this, I’m thinking, it would be really great to, I do want to share Taiwan and, my own childhood, home with her at some point. And so I start imagining what would it be like to bring her back to Taiwan and show her everything. And that became the seed for Nainai’s Mountain, which is a. Story of a girl visiting Taiwan for the first time with her grandmother. And her grandmother shows her around and tells her stories about her childhood, and the girl through her grandmother’s eyes, sees Taiwan, you know, for the beautiful place that it is.

Miko Lee: [00:41:56] You also wrote the book I Dream of Popo. How are these companions to each other and also for audiences that might not speak Chinese. One is a grandmother on the mother’s side, and the other is the grandmother on the father’s side. Can you talk about how I dream of Popo is linked to Nainai’s Mountain?

Livia Blackburne: [00:42:15] Thank you for pointing that out. Yes. So Popo is maternal grandmother, and Nainai is a paternal grandmother. And that is a fantastic question. So I dream of popo is kind of my story. So it’s about a little girl who moves from Taiwan , to the United States and it’s about her relationship with her grandmother who stays in Taiwan. And it talks about, how a close relationship, navigating long geographical distances about the language barrier that comes up. And that was very much me, Nainai’s Mountain. It’s kind of like Popo in reverse, you know, it’s now it’s someone going back to Taiwan and kind of getting in touch with those roots. That, as I mentioned, that’s inspired by my daughter. And you’ll see in Nainai’s Mountain, I specified that the child should be, half Asian, half Caucasian. Because, I wanted more of that representation in the children’s literature.

Miko Lee: [00:43:07] Thank you. I, I wonder if you could talk a little bit about the artistic style. So you are the author, but you had different illustrators for both of the books and the style is really different. The in, when I look at Nainai’s Mountain, which I’m holding here, it’s sort of collage and really vibrant colors. Where I Dream of Popo has a different, more. I’m almost realistic, kind of look to it. And I’m wondering what your process was like in collaborating with illustrators.

Livia Blackburne: [00:43:37] That’s one of the best things about being a picture book author, is that you get to collaborate with so many illustrators and they all have such different styles, such different visions. Most of the time it’s the publisher who chooses the illustrator, although they. Consult me usually. My editor for I Dream of Popo picked Julia Kuo. And she sent me samples and I loved it. And, it was great. I’m friends with Julia now and that book did really well. It was very well known, especially in kind of Taiwanese American, Asian American circles. And so when I did, Nainai’s mountain, that was with a different publishing house and my editor. He very consciously said, you know, because it’s also a book about Taiwan and a grandmother. We don’t want to get it confused with I dream of Popo. So, we made a conscious decision to pick an artist with a very different style and Joey Chou is fantastic. He’s very well known for his Disney art. You can see his art in a lot of the hotels and cruise ships. And, he, very bright, vibrant, and I, he’s also from Taiwan. I think he did a fantastic job.

Miko Lee: [00:44:41] And have the artistic work ever surprised you as being really different from your imagination while you were writing?

Livia Blackburne: [00:44:48] That’s a great question. I don’t think they’ve ever surprised me. By being different. They surprised me in the specifics that they’ve chosen. For example, I dream of Popo. Julia, spent a lot of time in Taiwan and she put in these great, Taiwan details that, you know, if you’re from Taiwan, you would know for sure. There’s like a specific brand of rice cooker called the rice cooker, and she has one there and like the giant bag of rice in the corner, and the calendar on the wall.

Miko Lee: [00:45:16] Even the specificities of the food and the trays and everything is quite lovely.

Livia Blackburne: [00:45:20] Yeah, yeah. You know, every time I read that, I look at that spread, I get hungry. So surprise there. And, with Joey, I, I love how he does the different, there’s kind of flashback pictures and there’s, pictures now and. The thing about him, his color, I just love the color that he put in from the greens, of Taiwan to kind of the bright fluorescent lights, neon lights of Taipei, and then there’s kind of the slight sepia tones of the past and he just, you know, brings it so to life so well.

Miko Lee: [00:45:49] I didn’t know he was a Disney animator, but it totally makes sense because it feels very layered. It does feel animated in a way and kind of alive. So I appreciate that.

Livia Blackburne: [00:45:59] I’m not sure. If he’s an animator. He does a lot of art for the theme parks and like products and the cruise ships and stuff. I’m not sure.

Miko Lee: [00:46:07] Oh, interesting.

Livia Blackburne: [00:46:07] He does like movies and
stuff.

Miko Lee: [00:46:08] Interesting. It looks like animation though. Your book.

Livia Blackburne: [00:46:13] It does look very, yeah. Lively. Mm-hmm.

Miko Lee: [00:46:16] That I’m looking forward to that series. That would be so cute. The grandmother series as a whole little mini series traveling to different places. can you tell us about your new book, Dreams to Ashes? Has that been released yet?

Livia Blackburne: [00:46:29] Dreams to Ashes? That has been released that, released about a month before Nainai’s Mountain. Yeah, that one’s quite a bit different. So that one is a nonfiction book and it’s a picture book, and it’s about the Los Angeles massacre of 1871. Whenever people, I tell people about that, they’re like, wait, you wrote a picture book about a massacre? Which is slightly counterintuitive. So I never knew about the Los Angeles massacre growing up. And, and, given that I am a Chinese person in Los Angeles, that is kind of weird. Basically, it was a race massacre that occurred. One of the biggest mass lynchings in history, uh, where there was a between two rival Chinese organizations and a white bystander was killed. And because of that, , a mob formed and they rounded the Chinese population up basically. And. Blame them for that death. In the end, 18 Chinese men were killed and only one of them were involved in the original gunfight. It was a horrible tragedy. And unfortunately, as often happened with these kind of historical tragedies in our country, nobody was really punished for it. A few men were indicted and convicted, but their convictions were overturned and it just kind of disappeared into history. And it really struck me that, you know, nobody knew about this. I wanted to kind of bring this to light and unfortunately when I was writing it, it was also, during the Covid pandemic and, I was seeing a lot of anti-Asian rhetoric, anti-Asian hate crimes were going up. And I saw so many parallels between what happened. Back then, because, you know, Chinese people specifically were being vilified , they were being called immoral, stealing people’s jobs. And you can see in the years before the massacre the newspapers were saying horrible things and, you know, the hate was just becoming very strong and all that exploded one night into an unspeakable tragedy. Unfortunately as an author, you want your work to be relevant, but sometimes you don’t want your work to be relevant in this way.
Right. Nowadays I’m seeing so much rhetoric again against immigrants and not of many ethnicities. And in some ways I’m sad. That, this is happening now. And I also hope that this book will contribute to the conversation and show how the danger of racism and xenophobia and hate and what, what can happen because of that.

Miko Lee: [00:48:55] So this occurred in the late 1800s, right? Was it before the Chinese Exclusion Act?

Livia Blackburne: [00:49:03] Yes, it was before the Chinese Exclusion Act. So you’d hope that people kinda learn from these things. And it was just kind of one of the, one of the horrible things that happened on the way to the Chinese Exclusion Act and Chinese immigrants being excluded basically Chinese laborers at least.

Miko Lee: [00:49:23] Oh wow. Okay. I’m looking this up now. And 1882 we know was the Chinese Exclusion Act and this incident actually happened in 1871. Yes. A decade beforehand, Helen Zia always talks about these moments that are missing. MIH missing in history and this is clearly another one of, another time of just wiping out a population.I’m wondering if you could speak a little bit more about how Children’s Books can make a difference in the world that we’re currently living in, where our government is banning books and you know that there’s a narratives that they want to align with a certain kind of conservative ideology. Can you talk about the power of being a Children’s Book author in this time that we’re living in right now? . I’m really thinking about dreams to Ashes and even I dream of Popo and even Nainai’s Mountain, which you would think, oh, they’re, you, they’re visiting their grandparent, their grandmothers, that would not be controversial. But now when even words like inclusion and diversity are threatened and books are being banned, I’m just wondering if you could. Share a little bit more about your superpower as a children’s book author?

Livia Blackburne: [00:50:31] Yeah, that’s a fantastic question. We live in a time right now, there’s, a lot of hate, a lot of intolerance, a lot of fear of different people groups. And a lot of that I think is because people are unfamiliar with people unlike themselves. They see. People who are different, look differently, act differently, speak differently, and it scares them. And I think the best way to get around that is to actually get to know people of other backgrounds, to see them as human. And I think that’s where children’s books come in. ‘Cause we don’t, children are not born. With this hate of the other. They learn it. But, if they grow up being familiar with people of different backgrounds seeing their stories seeing them as, normal human beings, which, should be obvious, but sometimes it’s hard, for adults to realize. Then, I’m hoping, as a children’s book author that it will lead to a more empathetic world. And perhaps that’s why the government sometimes in certain groups are wanting to, censor this and control the flow of children’s books because, children are the most their minds are still open. They’re still able to learn.

Miko Lee: [00:51:48] And Livia, tell us what you’re working on next.

Livia Blackburne: [00:51:53] So right now I am. Working on a historical middle grade. We haven’t quite announced it yet, so I can’t say the title or too many details, but it is based on my family history of my parents and grandparents who moved from China to Taiwan after the civil War.

Miko Lee: [00:52:12] Please check out our website, kpfa.org. To find out more about our show tonight. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. Apex Express is created by Miko Lee, Jalena Keane-Lee, Preti Mangala-Shekar, Swati Rayasam, Aisa Villarosa, Estella Owoimaha-Church, Gabriel Tanglao, Cheryl Truong and Ayame Keane-Lee.

The post APEX Express – 6.19.25 We Are All Connected appeared first on KPFA.
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APEX Express – 6.12.25 Obbligato
12 giu· KPFA - APEX Express
A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.
Tonight on APEX Express, Host Isabel Li broadcasts her first show Obbligato, centered on music by contemporary classical composers who identify as Asian American Pacific Islander. Tonight’s show features music by Grammy nominated Chinese American composer Zhou Tian, who blends musical inspiration from different cultures and mixes them seamlessly into a musically satisfying combination for performers and audiences alike. The Wall Street Journal states that his works accomplish 2 important things. They remind us of how we got from there to here, and they refine that history by paying belated tribute to contributors who might otherwise be forgotten.
Obbligato Transcript
Opening: [00:00:00] Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express.

Isabel Li [00:00:50 ]
Good evening and thank you for tuning in to APEX Express on KPFA, 94.1 FM. We are bringing you an Asian and Asian American view from the Bay and around the world.
Isabel Li [00:01:00]
I’m your host, Isabel Li, and tonight is my first Apex Express show that I’ve named Obbligato, a show centered on music by contemporary classical composers who identify as Asian American Pacific Islander. Tonight’s show features music by Grammy nominated Chinese American composer Zhou Tian, who blends musical inspiration from different cultures and mixes them seamlessly into a musically satisfying combination for performers and audiences alike. The Wall Street Journal states that his works accomplish 2 important things. They remind us of how we got from there to here, and they refine that history by paying belated tribute to contributors who might otherwise be forgotten.
Isabel Li [00:01:45]
Before we get into the music of Zhou Tian, because this is my first time on Apex Express, I’ll briefly introduce myself. I’m Isabel Li, a second generation Chinese American violinist, writer, filmmaker and researcher, and I strive to amplify the works of AAPI artists and musicians, especially in relation to classical music. My senior thesis film in undergrad, for example, was a short narrative film about a Chinese American cellist who bridges intergenerational divides through music. I believe that Asian and Asian American identities in the world of classical music, which is usually associated with whiteness, European culture and elitism, are especially interesting to study.
Isabel Li [00:02:28]
Because there is a considerable proportion of classical musicians and composers who do identify as Asian American, there’s a great book that talks about this, actually called Musicians from a Different Shore: Asians and Asian Americans in Classical Music by author Mari Yoshihara, which I read while researching for my film. Through this show, I hope to highlight works by some of these AAPI identifying musicians and composers, and further discussions about this intersection of Asian identities and classical music.
Isabel Li [00:02:59]
I’m really excited to get into the music of composer Zhou Tian, described as a prime example of 21st century global multiculturalism. Born into a musical family in Hangzhou, China, Zhou moved to the US when he was 19. Trained at Curtis, Juilliard and USC, he studied with some of America’s finest composers, such as Jennifer Higdon, Christopher Rouse and Stephen Hartke. His music has been performed by leading performers and orchestras, Including to name a few, Jaap van Zweden, Yuja Wang, Manfred Honeck, Long Yu, Noah Bendix-Balgley, the New York Philharmonic, London Philharmonic, San Francisco Symphony. Pittsburgh Symphony. The Dover Quartet, as well as the Shanghai Symphony, where he recently served as artist in residence. He is currently professor of composition at Michigan State University.
00:03:54 Isabel Li
Starting off today’s show is an orchestral piece by Zhou Tian composed in 2019, that was commissioned by the Shanghai Symphony titled Gift or 《禮獻》 in Chinese gift pays tribute to traditional Chinese poetry and music, specifically inspired by a poem titled Music as a Gift of decency by Shen Yue, from the northern and Southern dynasties, circa the year 400. Here is Joe Tiene’s gift, performed by the Shanghai Symphony, conducted by Long Yu.
04:10                     Comp Music – Gift
00:13:20 Isabel Li
That was a resplendent orchestral piece to start off today’s show that was Zhou Tian’s Gift performed by the Shanghai Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Long Yu.
00:13:31 Isabel Li
I really appreciate how this orchestral piece enmeshes folk tune sounding melodies with more contemporary sounding frenzied rhythms, especially with the syncopations that occur throughout the magnificent melodies. In fact, in one of the sections we actually hear this series of high pitched repeated dotted rhythms in Gift.
00:13:51 Isabel Li
And it actually reminded me of how I got to know Zhou’s work in the first place. A few years ago I had been introduced to him as a composer through one of his other compositions, which unfortunately we will not be listening to today, but it is definitely worth listening at some point. It’s called Transcend and Zhou had written this in commemoration and in acknowledgement of the work of Chinese immigrant laborers who worked on the transcontinental railroad who, if you remember the photo of the final spike, there was not a single Chinese immigrant labor in sight in the photo and in that third movement of that Symphony of Transcend, we actually hear this rhythmic motif that signals DONE. It’s a Morse code rhythmic tapping of done. And it was very interesting to me because it’s also kind of historically informed when the transcontinental railroad was completed.
00:14:47 Isabel Li
They actually signaled its completion by tapping DONE, this rhythm, and Joe had recaptured that and expressed that in a very artistic way through his compositional work, and I really appreciate this consistency in rhythmic, artistic musicality that he applies throughout all of his different works.
00:15:09 Isabel Li
Coming up next is a piano solo performed by Zhou Tian himself. This is the 2022 piece that he wrote, inspired directly from the resonant bells of Buddhist temples called majestic bells, or in Chinese, 《輝煌的鐘聲》. Here is majestic bells performed by Zhou Tian on piano.
15:30                     Comp Music – Majestic Bells
00:20:53 Isabel Li
That was composer Zhou Tian himself on piano playing the piano solo piece called Majestic Bells. What I really love about this piece is how Joe seems to combine influences from composers of the late 19th century and 20th century, especially if you observe with the parallel intervals parallel fifths especially and free flowing melodic forms. It kind of reminds me of the music of Bartok and Debussy, and how it’s both introspective and grandiose at the same time. Just as a reminder, thank you so much for listening to Apex Express on this Thursday evening on tonight’s edition of Obbligato on Apex Express, which focuses on work by contemporary AAPI, classical composers and musicians.
00:21:42 Isabel Li
We’re focusing on the works of Grammy nominated Chinese American composer Zhou Tian.
00:21:48 Isabel Li
Our next piece of music that we’ll be listening to is based on the Chinese proverb 《千年善禱》, which translates to A Thousand Years of Good Prayers. And that was the title of Zhou Tian’s orchestral piece. Composed in 2009, Zhou wanted to highlight the spiritual blessing in a very timeless way. Because this proverb stretches back to ancient times. Through his use of expanded orchestration and his various layers of percussion of orchestral melodies throughout this piece, here is A Thousand Years of Good Prayers performed by the USC Thornton Symphony, conducted by Donald Crockett.
22:00                      Comp Music – A Thousand Years of Good Prayers
00:31:11 Isabel Li
An incredibly moving, sweeping piece of music for orchestra.
00:31:16 Isabel Li
That was Zhou Tian’s A Thousand Years of Good Prayers, which is based on the story of the proverb The Chinese proverb 《千年善禱》, and the story goes, or perhaps I should say the legend goes, that good relationships really take 1000 years of good prayers to bring about and Zhou Tian was really tapping into the spiritual element of this proverb. And I think he really accomplished that feeling.
00:31:47 Isabel Li
What I really appreciate about classical music in general, and why the show exists, is because classical music taps into the ineffable, the universal in all of us. What we don’t really have the language to communicate can be communicated through music. And Zhou Tian’s music is an example of how we can use this particular musical language to express these deeper meanings that can transcend linguistic, social, and even national boundaries. For this next piece. Now, because I’m a violinist, I couldn’t help but choose a piece that features the violin.
00:32:26 Isabel Li
We’ll be hearing Zhou Tian’s Double Concerto for violin, Viola and orchestra, and it features 3 movements titled Play, Aria, and Rendezvous. However, because of time, we will only be hearing one of these movements and I picked the first movement where we hear the two instruments, the solo instruments, violin and viola, engage in an energetic dialogue, shifting between moments of cooperation and playful rivalry.
00:32:55 Isabel Li
This is performed by Noah Bendix-Balgley on violin, Shanshan Yao on Viola, and the Hangzhou Philharmonic conducted by Yang Yang.
33:10                      Comp Music – Double Concerto for Violin and Viola, I. Play

00:46:08 Isabel Li
Completed relatively recently in 2024, that was the Double concerto for violin and Viola by Zhou Tian, performed by Noah Bendix-Balgley on violin, Shanshan Yao on Viola with the Hangzhou Philharmonic conducted by Yang Yang.
00:46:25 Isabel Li
As I was listening to this, and these are my violinist instincts kicking in, you know, it is a very virtuosic piece. So many complex rhythms, the violin and viola really have to work together to create this lyricism that is so energetic and playful at the same time. Like many of his other works, there is this unique combination of Chinese folk music and jazz like undertones in the rhythmic makeup of the piece. And it harkens back to another one of his very important works, which we will unfortunately not have time to listen to today, but his concerto for orchestra, which was composed back in 2016, earned him a Grammy Award nomination for Best Contemporary Classical Composition in 2018, making him the first Chinese born composer and the second Asian composer following the late Toru Takemitsu honored in that category.
00:47:22 Isabel Li
The combination of folk tunes and jazz rhythms is such a unique and intriguing combination, and I think there is so much that can be communicated through this, such as paying tributes to various cultures, which Zhou Tian does very ingeniously.
00:47:39 Isabel Li
And at the same time, Zhou really makes these types of folk music maybe more accessible to contemporary audiences who are more inclined to recognize jazz melodies and rhythms.
00:47:52 Isabel Li
We are quickly approaching the end of this week’s edition of Apex Express, so for our final piece, we have an orchestral suite.
00:48:02 Isabel Li
By Zhou Tian called broken Ink, the Chinese name is 《音詩》, and that is spectacularly interesting to me, because in literal translation, the Chinese title is sound poetry. It kind of reminds me of the Western classical music genre of a tone poem, usually symphonic pieces that evoke the mood or the story, and it’s usually inspired by some sort of poem or painting or literary work.
00:48:32 Isabel Li
Broken Ink was commissioned by the city of Hangzhou, who wanted a major piece to celebrate the city’s magnificent cultural heritage. In Zhou’s words, he says, in Broken Ink, a symphonic suite inspired by the poetry of the Song dynasty, I sought to capture the poetic flavor that was lost in translation.
00:48:53 Isabel Li
In the text, the work was built as a mosaic of Chinese musical traditions.
00:48:59 Isabel Li
And the work contains 5 parts, each inspired by a particular poem. We will be listening to the 4th movement titled the Mighty River runs Eastward.
00:53:40 Comp Music – Broken Ink: IV. The Mighty River Runs Eastward
00:55:41 Isabel Li
What you just heard was the Guangzhou Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Zhou Tian himself, the composer of his this orchestral suite titled Broken Ink, and this particular movement was the 4th movement, which has its own title because it was based on an individual poem itself from the Song Dynasty, called The Mighty River Runs Eastward.
00:56:04 Isabel Li
I really appreciate how this orchestral suite has textures reminiscent of contemporary cinematic soundtracks, while staying true to Joe’s experimentation and storytelling through music, expressing these timeless stories across cultures, across languages, using his own musical style.
00:56:27 Isabel Li
I want to use the remaining time to talk a little bit about my title of this show, Obbligato. Obbligato is a musical notation that notates that a musical line must not be omitted and must be played.
00:56:42 Isabel Li
I think this is an apt name for highlighting contemporary AAPI composers and their works because there are so many vibrant creative stories of expression that can be told through classical music, expanding AAPI stories in new musical mediums.
00:56:59 Isabel Li
Please check out our website kpfa.org to find out more about classical music in the API community on composer Zhou Tian, whose music we feature tonight. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating and sharing your visions with the world. Your voices are important.
00:57:18 Isabel Li
APEX Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight’s show was produced by Isabel Li. Have a great night.
The post APEX Express – 6.12.25 Obbligato appeared first on KPFA.
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APEX Express – June 5, 2025
5 giu· KPFA - APEX Express
A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.
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APEX Express – 5.29.25 AAPI Children’s Books
29 mag· KPFA - APEX Express
A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.
Happy Asian American & Pacific Islander Heritage Month! Even though the Trump Administration has eliminated recognizing cultural heritage months, we are still celebrating diversity and inclusion here at APEX Express and KPFA. We believe in lifting up people’s voices and tonight on APEX Express the Powerleegirls are focusing on “Asian American Children’s book authors”. Powerleegirl hosts Miko Lee and daughter Jalena Keane-Lee speak with: Michele Wong McSween, Gloria Huang, and Andrea Wang

AAPINH Month Children’s Books part 1 transcript
Opening: [00:00:00] Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express.

Ayame Keane-Lee: [00:00:49] Happy Asian American and Pacific Islander Heritage Month. Even though the Trump administration has eliminated recognizing cultural heritage months, we are still celebrating diversity and inclusion. Here at Apex Express and KPFA, we believe in lifting up people’s voices. And tonight on Apex Express, the PowerLeeGirls are focusing on Asian American Children’s book authors. PowerLeeGirl hosts Miko Lee and daughter Jalena Keane-Lee. Speak with Michele Wong McSween, Gloria Huang and Andrea Wang. Thanks for joining us tonight on Apex Express. Enjoy the show.

Miko Lee: [00:01:21] Welcome, Michele Wong McSween to Apex Express.

Michele Wong McSween: [00:01:26] Thank you, Miko. It’s nice to be here.

Miko Lee: [00:01:28] I’m really happy to talk with you about your whole children’s series, Gordon & Li Li, which is absolutely adorable. I wanna start very first with a personal question that I ask all of my guests, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?

Michele Wong McSween: [00:01:45] I would say my people are really my family starting with, my great, great grandparents who came here down to my grandparents, my parents, and onto my children because, to me family is. The reason why I created Gordon & Li Li in the first place, it was really to bridge that connection for my children. I didn’t grow up feeling that connected with my culture because as a fourth generation Chinese American, I was really in the belief that I’m American. Why do I need to know anything about my culture? Why do I need to speak Chinese? I never learned. As a sidebar to that, I never learned to speak Chinese and it didn’t really hit me until I had my own kids that I was really doing a disservice to not only my kids, but to myself. my people are my family. I do this for my kids. I do this to almost apologize to my parents for being so, Disrespectful to my amazing culture and I do it for the families who really want to connect and bridge that gap for their own children and for themselves.

Miko Lee: [00:02:53] And what legacy do you carry with you?

Michele Wong McSween: [00:02:55] Again, my family. My, great grandparents. Really. Started our family’s legacy with the hard work and the prejudices and all the things that they endured so that we could have a better life. And I’ve always felt that it is my responsibility to teach my own kids about the sacrifices that were made and not to make them feel guilty, but to just make them appreciate that we are here. Because of the the blood, sweat, and tears that their ancestors did for them. And so we are, eternally grateful for that. I think it’s important for us to continue that legacy of always doing our best, being kind and doing what we can do to further the experience of not just our family, but the people in our community that we connect with and to the greater world.

Miko Lee: [00:03:43] when you were growing up, were your parents speaking with you in Chinese and did you hear about your great grandparents and their legacy? Was that part of your upbringing?

Michele Wong McSween: [00:03:52] I heard about my great grandparents in the stories that my mom told us, but to be quite honest, I wasn’t receptive to really digging deep in my cultural understanding of. my great-grandfather and what he went through. I know mom, I know he came over in 19 whatever. I know he brought over all these young sons from his village, but I really didn’t fully take it in and. No, I didn’t hear Chinese spoken in the house much. The only time my parents spoke it was to each other so that we didn’t know what they were talking about. They had like this secret code, language. My experience with my language was not, That positive. we did attempt to go to Chinese school only to be teased by all the other kids because we didn’t speak it. It didn’t end up well. my mom ended up pulling us out and so no, we were really not connected all that much to the language.

Miko Lee: [00:04:48] I can really relate to what you’re saying. As a fifth generation Chinese American, and my parents their ancestors came from different provinces, so their dialects were so different that they even spoke to each other in English. ’cause they couldn’t understand each other in Chinese. So it happens so often. Yeah. Yeah. And so I really relate to that. I’m wondering if there was an epiphany in your life or a time where you thought, oh, I. I wish I knew more of those stories about my ancestors or was there some catalyst for you that changed?

Michele Wong McSween: [00:05:17] All of this really kind of happened when I moved to New York. I, you know, raised in Sacramento, went to college in the Bay Area, lived in San Francisco for a while with a job, and then I eventually moved to New York. And it wasn’t until I came to New York and I met Asians or Chinese Americans like me that actually spoke Chinese and they knew about cool stuff to do in Chinatown. It really opened my eyes to this new cool world of the Chinese culture because I really experienced Chinatown for the first time when I moved to New York. And it was just so incredible to see all these people, living together in this community. And they all looked the same. But here’s the thing, they all spoke Chinese, or the majority of them spoke Chinese. So when I went to Chinatown and they would look at me and speak to me in Chinese and I would give them this blank stare. They would just look at me like, oh my gosh, she doesn’t even speak her own language. And it kind of made me feel bad. And this was really the first time that it dawned on me that, oh wow, I, I kind of feel like something’s missing. And then it really hit me when I had my kids, because they’re half Chinese and I thought, oh my gosh, wait a minute, if I’m their last connection to the Chinese culture and I don’t speak the language. They have no chance of learning anything about their language they couldn’t go that deep into their culture if I didn’t learn about it. So that really sparked this whole, Gordon & Li Li journey of learning and discovering language and culture for my kids.

Miko Lee: [00:06:51] Share more about that. How, what happened actually, what was the inspiration for creating the Children’s book series?

Michele Wong McSween: [00:06:58] It was really my children, I really felt that it was my responsibility to teach them about their culture and language and, if I didn’t know the language, then I better learn it. So I enrolled all of us in different Mandarin courses. They had this, I found this really cute kids’ Mandarin class. I went to adult Mandarin classes and I chose Mandarin because that was the approved official language in China. I am from Taishan, My parents spoke Taishanese, but I thought, well, if Mandarin’s the official language, I should choose that one probably so that my kids will have at least a better chance at maybe some better jobs in the future or connecting with, the billion people that speak it. I thought Mandarin would be the way to go. When I started going to these classes and I just realized, wow, this is really hard, not just to learn the language, but to learn Mandarin Chinese, because we’re not just talking about learning how to say the four different tones. We’re talking about reading these characters that if you look at a Chinese character, you have absolutely no idea what it sounds like if you’re, if you’re learning Spanish or French or German, you can see the letters and kind of sound it out a little bit. But with Chinese characters. No chance. So I found it extremely difficult and I realized, wow, I really need to support my kids more because if I am going to be the one that’s going to be bridging this connection for them, I need to learn more and I need to find some more resources to help us. when we would have bedtime story time, that whole routine. That was always the favorite time of my kids to be really, quiet and they would really absorb what I was saying, or we would talk about our days or just talk about funny things and I realized, wow, these books that they love and we have to read over and over and over again. this is the way that they’re going to get the information. And I started searching high and low for these books. back in 2006, they didn’t exist. and so I realized if they didn’t exist and I really wanted them for my kids, then I needed to create them. That’s the impetus, is there was nothing out there and I really wanted it so badly that I had to create it myself.

Miko Lee: [00:09:09] Oh, I love that. And I understand you started out self-publishing. Can you talk a little bit about that journey?

Michele Wong McSween: [00:09:15] I’m glad I didn’t know what I know today because it was really hard. luckily I had, A friend who used to work for a toy company, it was all through connections. there was nothing really on Google about it. there was no Amazon print on demand. There were none of these companies that provide these services like today. So I just kept asking questions. Hey, do you know a toy manufacturer in China that maybe prints books? Do you know a company that could help me? get my books to the states. Do you know an illustrator that can help me illustrate my books? Because I had gone to fashion design school, but I had not learned to illustrate characters or things in a book. So asking questions and not being afraid to ask the questions was really how I was able to do it because, Without the help of friends and family, I wouldn’t have been able to do this. I had all my friends look at my books, show them to their kids. I had my kids look at them, and I kind of just figured it out as I went along. Ultimately when I did publish my first book, I had so much support from my kids’ schools. To read the books there, I had support from a local play space for kids that we would go to. I really leaned on my community to help me, get the books out there, or actually it was just one at the time. Two years later I self-published two more books. So I had three in total. no one tells you that when you self-publish a book, the easy part is actually creating it. The hard part is what comes after that, which is the pr, the marketing, the pounding, the pavement, knocking on the doors to ask people to buy your books, and that was really hard for me. I would just take my books in a bag and I would explain my story to people and I would show them my books. sometimes they would say, okay, I’ll take one of each, or Okay, we’ll try it out. and slowly but surely they would reorder from me. I just slowly, slowly built up, a whole Roster of bookstores and I kept doing events in New York.

I started doing events in Los Angeles and San Francisco, and through that I gained some following, some fans and people would tell their friends about me. they would give them to their nieces they would give them to their cousin’s kids, or, things like that. I knew that I had to do it because my ultimate goal was to have Scholastic be my publisher. That was my ultimate goal. Because they are the publisher that I grew up with, that I love that I connected with, that I was so excited to get their book club, little flyer. I would check off every book that I wanted. And my mom never said no. She always let me get every single book I wanted. I realize now that that’s what really Created the love of books for me is just having access to them and, going to the libraries and seeing all these books on the bookshelves and being able to take them out and read them on the spot. And then if I loved them enough, I would check them out and take them home and read them over and over. So it was really, my experience, having that love for books that I thought, oh gosh, it would be a dream. To have Scholastic become my publisher. So after 10 long years of events and community outreach and selling to these bookstores, I finally thought, okay, I’ve sold, about 17,000, 18,000 books. Maybe, maybe now I can take my series to them. I also had created an app. Maybe I can take this to them and show them what I’ve done. Maybe they’ll be interested in acquiring me. And I got an appointment with the editor and I pitched my books on my app and within a couple of days they offered to acquire my books, which was my dream come true. So anyway, that was a very long story for how self-publishing really is and how ultimately it really helped my dream come true.

Miko Lee: [00:13:08] Now your books are on this Scholastic book, fair Circuit, right?

Michele Wong McSween: [00:13:13] Yes, they are. Well, it’s actually just one book. They took the three books, which were everyday Words. Count in Mandarin and learn animals in Mandarin. They took all three books and they put them in one big compilation book, which is called My First Mandarin Words with Gordon & Li Li. So it’s a bigger book. It’s a bigger board book. Still very, very sturdy and it’s a great, starter book for any family because it has those three first themes that were the first themes that I taught my own boys, and I think. It just, it’s very natural for kids to want to learn how to count. animals were, and my kids were animal lovers, so I knew that that’s what would keep them interested in learning Mandarin because they actually loved the topic. So, yes, my first mandarin words with Gordon & Li Li does live on Scholastics big roster.

Miko Lee: [00:14:01] Fun. Your dream come true. I love it. Yeah. Thanks. And you were speaking earlier about your background in fashion design. Has there been any impact of your fashion design background on your voice as a children’s book author?

Michele Wong McSween: [00:14:14] I don’t know if my background as a fashion designer has had any impact on my voice. I think it’s had an impact on how I imagined my books and how I color my books and how I designed them because of working with, you know, color palettes and, and putting together collections I can visually see and, can anticipate. Because I have that background, I can kind of anticipate what a customer might want. And also, you know, speaking with people at my events and seeing what kids gravitate to, that also helps. But I think there’s so much more to being an author than just writing the books. You know, when I go to my events, I have a table display, I have setups, I have props, I have, I actually now have a, a small. Capsule of merchandise because I missed designing clothes. So I have a teeny collection of, you know, sweaters, hoodies, onesies, a tote bag, and plushies

Miko Lee: [00:15:04] they’re super cute by the way.

Michele Wong McSween: [00:15:06] Oh, thank you. So, you know, fashion has come in in different ways and I think having that background has really helped. kind of become who they are

Miko Lee: [00:15:17] Can you tell us about the latest book in the series, which is Gordon and Li Li All About Me. Can you tell a little bit about your latest?

Michele Wong McSween: [00:15:25] Gordon & Li Li All About Me is really, it’s, to me, it’s. I think my most fun interactive book because it really gets kids and parents up and out of their chairs, out of their seats and moving around. And you know, as a parent, I always would think about the kind of books that my kids would gravitate towards. What would they want to read and what as a parent would I want to read with my kids? Because really reading is all about connection with your kids. That’s what I loved about books is it gave me a way to connect with my kids. And so a book about body parts to me is just a really fun way to be animated and get up and move around and you can tickle and, and squeeze and shake it around and dance around. And, you know, having three boys, my house was just like a big energy ball. So I knew that this book would be a really fun one for families and I have two nieces and a nephew, and I now, they’re my new target market testers, and they just loved it. They had so much fun pointing to their body parts and the book ends with head, shoulders, knees, and toes in English and in Mandarin. And so of course. Every kid knows head, shoulders, knees, and toes in English. So we sing that. We get up, we point to our pottered parts, we shake it around, we dance around. And then the fun part is teaching them head, shoulders, knees, and toes in Mandarin because they’re already familiar with the song. It’s not scary to learn something in Mandarin. It just kind of naturally happens. And so I think the All About Me book is just a really fun way to connect with kids. I’ve actually launched it at a couple of events already and the response to the book has been overwhelming. I was at the Brooklyn Children’s Museum and even the president of the museum came and did the head shoulders. Knees and toes, songs with us. It was so much fun. Everybody was dancing around and having a great time. So I’m just really, really excited for people to pick up this book and really learn about the body. It’s, you know, body positivity, it’s body awareness, and it’s just a great way to connect with your kids.

Miko Lee: [00:17:31] So fun. I, I saw that you’re recently at the Asian American Book Con. Can you talk a little bit about that experience?

Michele Wong McSween: [00:17:38] Oh, that was great. That was the first of its kind and. I led the entire author segment of it. I would say individual authors. There were, there were, publishing companies that brought in their own authors, but I was responsible for bringing in the independent authors. And so I think we had about eight of us. There were Indian, Korean, Chinese, Taiwanese, and we all came together for this one really special day of celebrating our voices and lifting each other up. And there was so much energy and so much positivity in that event, and I. Actually was just thinking about reaching out to the organizers last year and seeing if we could maybe do, part two? So, I’m glad you brought that up. It was a really positive experience.

Miko Lee: [00:18:27] So we’re celebrating the end of Asian American Pacific Islander Native Hawaiian month. Can you tell us why this month is important to you?

Michele Wong McSween: [00:18:36] When you have something designated and set aside as, this is the month that we’re going to be celebrating Asian American Native Hawaiian Pacific Islander heritage all month long, I think it kind of perks up. People’s ears and they think, oh wow, this is a great opportunity for me to see what’s happening in my community. I think it just brings the awareness to. The broader community and ultimately the world. And I think when we learn about each other and each other’s cultures, it brings us closer together and makes us realize that we’re really not that different from each other. And I think when there are so many events happening now it peaks the interest of people in the neighborhood that might otherwise not know about it and it can, really bring us closer together as a community.

Miko Lee: [00:19:27] Michelle Wong McSween, thank you so much for joining me on Apex Express. It’s great to hear more about you and about your latest book Gordon & Li Li and the entire series. Thank you so much.

Michele Wong McSween: [00:19:39] Thank you, Miko

Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:19:40] Thank you all so much for joining us. I’m here with Gloria l Huang, author of Kaya of the Ocean. Thank you so much for joining us, Gloria.

Gloria Huang: [00:19:48] Oh, thanks so much for having me here.

Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:19:50] So first off, one question that we’re asking all of our guests on our show tonight is, who are your people? However you identify, you know, your community, your ancestors, and what legacy do you carry with you?

Gloria Huang: [00:20:01] Oh, that’s such a good question. So I am my heritage is Chinese. My parents were born in China and then grew up in Taiwan. And I myself was actually born in Canada. But then moved the states pretty young and and American Canadian dual citizen and now, but I, my heritage plays a lot into my. Kind of my worldview. It really shaped, how I grew up and how I saw things. And so it features very prominently in my writing and in my stories as you could probably tell from Kaya the ocean.

Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:20:34] Yes. And I love the book so much. It was such a

Gloria Huang: [00:20:37] thank you,

Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:20:38] amazing read. And I’m also half Chinese and love the ocean. Just love the beach so much and have always felt such a connection with the water. I don’t wanna give away too much things about the book, but I was wondering if you could talk about your inspiration for writing it and a little bit about, setting and everything.

Gloria Huang: [00:20:56] Of course. So the inspiration for the book actually started I came up with the idea when the world was first emerging from the pandemic and I was seeing a lot of people obviously experiencing a lot of anxiety, but a lot of children very close to me in my life. And they were experiencing it for the first time, which was can be so difficult. I remember when it happened to me and there’s just this tendency to. Worry that there’s something wrong with you or that you’ve done something and you feel so alone. And so I remember standing by the ocean one night actually and thinking that I’d really love to write a book about a girl who is struggling with. The anxiety just to be able to send a message to all these kids that there’s nothing wrong with them. They’re not alone and really all parts of who they are. Even the parts they might not love so much are important parts of these amazing, beautiful, complicated people. They are. So that was the inspiration for that part of the story, the setting. I was very inspired. As you mentioned, the ocean is a huge inspiration to me. It actually comes into my mind, a lot of my stories and someone pointed that out once and I was like, you’re right, it does. And I think part of it is that I love the ocean. I love the beach. I love being there, but I’m also so in awe of this powerful thing that, you know, where we know so little about it. It is. There’s so much mystery to it. It can look so beautiful on the surface and be so dangerous underneath. I love it as a metaphor. I love it as a part of nature. So I think that was a huge part of why I wanted to incorporate that, especially because I think it also plays well into the metaphor for how some people experience anxiety and you can be calm on the surface, but so much is happening underneath.

Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:22:29] Absolutely. Yeah. Those interplay with each other and are metaphors for each other in such a beautiful way, mirror the experience. Yeah. I wanted to talk a little bit more about anxiety and particular, as a young Asian American girl the cultural specificity of having anxiety as a young Asian American woman.

Gloria Huang: [00:22:46] Yes I definitely think it’s no coincidence. I think that anxiety often goes hand in hand with perfectionism and pressure and I, many people feel that kind of pressure, but certainly a young Asian girl especially with immigrant parents, will feel specific kind of pressure. And so I was really trying to portray that, Somebody once said to me, they were like, oh, I really like how Kaya on the surface seems so put together. She’s, got really good grades. She works really hard at school. She’s close to her parents, but there’s all this going on underneath. And I actually think that’s not unusual in terms of that experience for Asian American children of immigrants, and especially if you’re female I was really trying to. Tease that out. And then in addition I think there’s a tendency, and this might exist in other cultures as well, but in Asian culture, at least in my family history there’s a tendency not to really want to talk about mental health. There was a, there’s a joke in my family that my parents thought anything could be solved with good sleep and good nutrition, like anytime you had any problem. And I think that there is a, there’s a. resistance to feeling like your child can be struggling in a way you can’t help them. So I, really wanted to touch on that, part of the cultural pressures at play in kaya’s life.

Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:23:59] And you did so beautifully and it was very relatable, as a anxious Asian girly. And also just, the discussion of big feelings and somehow, having inklings that you may be more powerful than you even realize, but the kind of like emotions that come with that too.

Gloria Huang: [00:24:15] Yes. I think that’s a huge part of it is that like when you experience these huge feelings they feel powerful, know, in a negative way. But what I was really trying to get at was, there is also power in accepting these parts of yourself and realizing that They can make up this powerful being that you are, even if you might not love them in that moment.

Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:24:34] Yeah. I felt very seen by the book and I, couldn’t help but wonder wow, what would it have been like if I had read this when I was, 13 or 12 or kind of Closer to the age of the characters in the book.

Gloria Huang: [00:24:45] Thank you so much for saying that it actually means a lot because a lot of my motivation when I do write these books is to write for people who are either of that age or, wish they had a book like that at that age, which is also how I feel a lot about books nowadays and oh, I, I’m so glad that exists. I wish that had been around when I was that age.

Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:25:03] Yes. Were there any books that really set an example for you that either you read, maybe when you were, in the young adult. Age range or that you’ve read now as an adult where you’re like, okay, this is definitely the audience that I wanna be writing for.

Gloria Huang: [00:25:17] Definitely. I actually love this question ’cause I’m a big reader and so I love talking about books . When I was a kid, middle grade books were my gateway into my love of reading. So I still remember a lot of my favorite books, but I would say a recent book, it’s actually maybe not that recent now, it’s maybe a couple years old, but a book that really. Had an effect on the middle grade book was when you trap a tiger by Tae Keller and it explores. The kind of Korean experience, but also through the prism of kind of understanding generational grief. And it was just so beautifully done and really made an impact on me. So that was one recently that I thought was really powerful. And, I was like, this is an important book. This is definitely a book I would’ve loved as a child. When I was younger and I was reading books, there were three books that meant a lot to me. One was called the true confessions of Charlotte Doyle, and it was like a swashbuckling adventure story starring a girl, which was, at that time not very common. And it was, it meant, it was so earth shattering to me to be able to see a female character in that role. So that was great. There’s a book called. Homecoming by Cynthia Voigt. And it’s an adventure story and it also stars. The main character is a very strong female character and Tuck everlasting, which I just think is a beautiful book. It’s also female characters. Now I’m saying it out loud. They are all female main characters. And all about, existentialism and adventure and things that, it was important for me to see. Female characters exploring. But I did also wanna say that when I was reading middle grade books, some of my favorite books included a series called, babysitters Club, which I think that they’ve redone now as a graphic novel. And that was actually really important, not necessarily for the stories, but because there’s a character named Claudia Kishi who. Was a Japanese American character and she absolutely shattered the minds of, I think all kids that age were Asian descent and female in reading these books because there just wasn’t a character like her before that, she was so cool and artistic but she had immigrant parents and she had a sister who was very good at math and they didn’t get along and she loved junk food and she was. So incredibly nuanced and it was just not something that we saw back then. So that really inspired me, I think, to want to add to the diversity of voices. And thankfully there are many more diverse voices now than when I was reading.

Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:27:30] I love that. And I also feel like books that you read at that age, they stay with you forever.

Gloria Huang: [00:27:35] They really do.

Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:27:35] And they shape so much of like your worldview and your friendships. And I’m curious, ’cause I know the book was released this year in January. Mm-hmm. So what has it been like for you on your book tour and what’s been some other responses that you’ve heard? I.

Gloria Huang: [00:27:48] It’s been really great. It was so exciting to do the book launch and then just the amount of support from the writing community from, my, my kind of network, my agents and my publisher and editor. And also just readers. It’s been really great. But one thing I think I wasn’t expecting to love quite so much, not because I was expecting to not love it. I just said, it occurred to me that I would feel this way is getting feedback from, child readers is amazing because, I think as writers we love feedback no matter what. And if it’s positive feedback, that’s even better. But having a child reach out and as some of my friends will send a video of their. Children reacting to the book or they’ll, their, let their child type out a text messages and just to hear how the book hits with them and to hear their excitement or to hear that they were moved or to have them want to know what happens next. It meant so much to me because it was, they’re the target audience and to have them feel seen in that way was just, it’s just the ultimate kind of powerful feeling.

Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:28:51] That is so sweet. Oh my gosh. I can only imagine. And so you’re talking about the young readers. Yes. But I’m also curious if you have any advice or thoughts for young writers who might be wanting to share and get similar stories out to the world?

Gloria Huang: [00:29:05] Yeah I definitely do. And one of the. Experiences I’ve had that’s been great is I’ve been doing, some school visits and I go and I talk about the book, but I actually talk about the writing process. And when I do that, I really talk to the kids. As if they’re writers. The one of the first questions I ask is, hold up your hand. If you love writing or you think you want me, you might wanna be a writer someday. And a lot of hands go up and I tell them like, what the publishing process is, what are, the different genre options, what you might wanna consider, how you come up with an idea, how you sit down and write it, how you reach out to an agent. And I am surprised at how. Intensely, they’re hanging onto every word and they’re insightful questions after it. It shows me that a lot of them are really thinking about this. I think for one of the school visits, I remember someone held up her hand and she said what is the youngest age I. Someone has been able to be published. And I thought that was great. Because they’re so inspired and you can tell that, that they’re thinking for the first time this is a possibility. I have all kinds of advice during the school visits, the main piece of advice is really. Just that it can be a tough industry. writing is a very isolated process usually. There’s a lot of kind of obstacles and there’s a lot of gatekeeping. And so I tell ’em that the most important thing they can do is just keep pushing through and not to let any, setbacks stop them, because the ultimate goal is to reach even just one person.

Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:30:24] Absolutely. And what kind of advice do you give around learning how to hone your own voice and also having discipline when it comes to an artistic practice?

Gloria Huang: [00:30:33] Yeah, I think that’s such a great question. And I was gonna say this piece of advice is probably more for I. Older writers, but adult writers, I guess I should say. The one thing that I’ve really been thinking about having published a middle grade book is the very specific and unique experience of writing for middle grade audiences. I think a lot of my friends who write for older audience groups, young adults, adults, They have their own challenges, but one of the things that is different is when they’re writing, they are writing for the same target audience. That’s also the decision makers. So generally, adults and young adults are picking their own books, and they’re speaking to someone who will. Ultimately be the ones to pick up the books where when you’re writing for middle grade audiences they’re not usually the decision makers. at bookstores, they may or may not be in charge of which book they buy, in. Schools, usually it’s a librarian or a teacher. So in some ways you’re writing for one audience, but you’re also writing a subject matter that you’re hoping the decision makers will decide is worthy to put in front of your ultimate readers. So that’s one challenge. And then the other challenge is I think middle grade audiences are so. fascinating because they’re going through this amazingly unusual time in their lives, whether it’s eventful and there’s new experiences and that can be exciting, but also scary. So there’s a lot to mind in terms of topics, but they are also a mixture of being very sophisticated readers who are on the cusp of being teens. And so there’s a healthy dose of, skepticism, but they’re still young enough that they. Believe in magic, at least in the literary world. So you, there’s a lot of room to play with that. But they also. They sound different. They speak differently than adults. So it’s important to get the dialogue, for me I, turn to children in my life, including my own, just to do a check to make sure that the dialogue sounds authentic and something that, people, that kids would say. So a lot of thoughts there, but I think, I’ve been thinking a lot about middle grade and writing for middle grade, and what a unique experience it is.

Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:32:26] Yeah, that’s such a good point about the decision maker and having the multiple audiences, and I’m sure sometimes the decision makers are reading the books too, right? Or reading it with their kids or what have you. For your personal writing practice, are there any upcoming projects that you can share with us? And how do you stay inspired for what I imagine is like the long haul of writing something.

Gloria Huang: [00:32:45] I’m happiest when I have like several projects in the pipeline. So as soon as I am done a book or it’s, outta my hands, it’s with my agents or my editors. I’m looking to write another book. And I think sometimes I probably overwhelm my amazing book before agents. ’cause I’m like, I’m ready to start another story. And they’re like, we’re still looking at the book you just sent us. But I, that’s very much how. I am happiest. I would definitely say that everybody finds their own rhythm. I’m in some writers groups and some people are incredibly fast drafters and just need multiple projects at a time. And some people are like, no, I need to work on one project and I need to have it to perfection and I’m gonna work on it for a year or two. And I think whatever works for the individual artist, I think is the best kind of process for them. But yes, for me it’s very much about having multiple projects. I think I’m most inspired when I have different projects going at the same time. finding your own rhythm, I think is my advice.

Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:33:40] kaya of the ocean has, strong themes and storylines about, myths, mythology, Chinese mythology, and goddesses. I’m curious if you wanna talk any more about that and then also if that shows up in any of the other projects you’re working on

Gloria Huang: [00:33:54] Yes, the Chinese mythological water goddess that features. Pretty prominently in Kaya of the Ocean is Matsu. And I find her to be such a fascinating character. She is a real goddess who’s worshiped still in Asia. I think. Fishermen often will, pray to her for safe passage when they go out on the water. And my father told me about her when I was younger he told me like the side stories and I thought that was really interesting. But it was only when I started thinking about this book that I thought, I’d love to, I’d love to incorporate her. I hadn’t heard about her too much in, in the fictional world, even though I knew she was still like a revered goddess. But I thought it was so cool that she was this strong. I. Strong female figure in a space that didn’t always have that, hundreds of years ago. And so I dove into her story a little bit and found out, the story is that she was once a human child who loved to read and then she was afraid of swimming in water until she was older and then she drowned, saving, trying to save some relatives and it was interesting ’cause I’d already started plotting out Kaya and writing Kaya. And so much of her story wove easily into what I had already come up with. Like there, I think she has two sidekicks that were one time enemies that she, made into her friends and I’d already had Kaya written with two friends, Naomi and Ana. So I, there was just so much that I felt was kismet. And it was really fun to be able to weave that story together and fictionalize it. But I think it was also meaningful for me to be able to do that because. When I was younger, I loved reading Greek mythology. the stories are beautiful and they’ve been redone in beautiful ways, but it definitely was an area where I didn’t necessarily see myself reflected. As part of my goal to add to the diversity of voices, I really wanted to feature Chinese mythology and bring those stories in so that. Kids can either see themselves reflected in those stories and or understand a new kind of set of mythology and learn about a new culture.

Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:35:46] Yes. I’m so glad you put it that way because it is, it’s such a privilege to have access to, our own I. Cultural stories and knowledge through these, like fun and modern interpretations. Definitely. So I’m so glad that this can provide that.

Gloria Huang: [00:36:00] Oh, thank you. I did realize I didn’t answer your other question, which is does it feature my other works? Which so I have sold another middle grade novel and I’m, it’s not announced yet. I’m hoping to announce it soon. And I have some other. Books. I’m working on a young adult novel so far. They have not featured Chinese mythology, but I do definitely have a type that my most of my books tend to be contemporary settings, but with elements of speculative. Fantasy, just like the light touch of that and sometimes a little bit of historical elements as well. So they, they definitely all have that similar motif, but so far chi of the ocean is the only one to feature a Chinese mythological goddess.

Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:36:43] Thank you so much for sharing that. I love that. And I really love the relationship that Kaya had with her two friends and just and then also like the cousin that comes and just capturing like the banter amongst, amongst the girls.

Gloria Huang: [00:36:56] Thank you so much. that was really important to me, I think because at the stage that Kaia is in her life the loves of her life really are her two friends, Naomi and Ana, and they feature very prominently in how she learns to cope with her anxiety and her symptoms of anxiety. And so I really, I think that I really wanted to center her their friendship as much as possible. So I’m I’m glad that you saw it that way too.

Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:37:19] Yeah. And I feel like, I mean, it truly is the most important relationship. And so it’s nice when works of fiction and yeah, works of fiction, can reflect that in such a beautiful way. I know you mentioned that you have daughters or have children?

Gloria Huang: [00:37:32] I do, yes. I have a son and a daughter. And my daughter actually was quite involved because when I first started writing Kaya, I think she was exactly of the age that she would be the target reader group. And so she actually helped Beta read it. She provided a lot of feedback. She became like a cheerleader. She was definitely involved in the process and I think that was really exciting for her. my son became of the reading age once it came out, so he reads it and he’s a big fan too,

Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:38:00] that’s so sweet. I love that your daughter was part of the editing process too. That’s amazing.

Gloria Huang: [00:38:04] Yeah. Yeah. She loves writing and always says she wants to be a writer herself, so it was really special that she got to be part of this and see it up close.

Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:38:13] Oh wow. Do you think you would do any collaborative projects with her in the future?

Gloria Huang: [00:38:16] It’s so funny that you say that. She always suggests that. And then sometimes they’ll actually start a Google doc and they’ll say, let’s write a story together. And we all have, of course, very different writing styles. And then at some point they both actually usually just start reading what I’m writing. And at that point I’m like, this is not collaborative. You have to write as well. So we’ve had a couple of false starts, but that’s always a joke that we’re gonna do that together.

Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:38:39] that’s so sweet. What else is upcoming for you? I know this is, Asian American and native Hawaiian Pacific Islander month right now, and the episode will come out towards the end of May. So if there’s anything else coming up from you for this month or for June or the summer. Yeah. We’d love to hear what you have going on.

Gloria Huang: [00:38:57] Oh, yeah. Today actually Kaya’s audio book was released people can listen to it. It was narrated by this amazing, narrator, Cindy K. And so anywhere you find audio books is available. And that was really cool. I’ve listened to a little bit of it and you, when you write, you hear the words in your head one way, and then it’s amazing to hear like another artist do their take on it. So that’s really cool. I will be at the Bay Area book Festival at the end of the month of May. There. Doing like different panels and I’ll be on a panel. it’s about Fantastical Worlds. I’m really excited about that. hopefully we’ll be able to announce this other book soon. As you, you may know publishing is a very long lead time it will be a while before it’s released, but I think the hope is to release it during, a API month as well just not this year. And working on a young adult novel that hopefully we can go on submission with at some point. But it’s an exciting time for sure.

Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:39:51] Wow, that does sound so exciting. I can’t wait to hear about your new projects and to continue to read the work that you put out into the world. Is there anything else that you’d like to discuss or talk about?

Gloria Huang: [00:40:01] I think just to say a thank you to you for, having me on here and reading Kaya of the Ocean and really anyone who’s been interested in joining Kaya and her friends on their journey. It’s just, it’s so amazing, I think, to create these characters that become real to you, and then have them become real to other people. I don’t have the words to describe how meaningful it is to me, but thank you.

Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:40:24] Thank you for letting us join into the world of Kaya for a little bit ’cause it was very fun and healing and all of the amazing things. And thanks so much for joining us today on Apex Express.

Gloria Huang: [00:40:36] For sure. Thanks so much.

Miko Lee: [00:40:38] Welcome, Andrea Wang, award-winning children’s book author to Apex Express.

Andrea Wang: [00:40:43] Thank you, Miko. I’m so happy to be here.

Miko Lee: [00:40:46] Happy to have you. I’d love to start first with a personal question, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?

Andrea Wang: [00:40:57] My people are from China. My mother’s family belonged to an ethnic minority, called the Haka or the Kaja people, and she and her siblings were. A military family, and we’re each born in a different province. And when the Chinese Civil War ended in 1949, they went to Taiwan where she grew up and immigrated to the United States in 1965 or 1966. My father’s family are from Guangdong Province, and so I’m Cantonese on that side, although I don’t speak any Cantonese. And he went to Hong Kong after the Chinese Civil War. So I am the daughter of Chinese immigrants, second generation Chinese American.

Miko Lee: [00:42:01] And what legacy do you carry with you?

Andrea Wang:[00:42:03] I carry the legacy of their stories, both the ones that I know and the ones that I don’t know yet.

Miko Lee: [00:42:12] Ooh. It sounds like there’s lots of juicy things for you still to discover. That is fun.

Andrea Wang: [00:42:16] Yes.

Miko Lee: [00:42:17] Today we’re talking about your new book, watercress, can you share what the audience, what the book is about, and then what is your inspiration for this book?

Andrea Wang: [00:42:25] So the book is about a Chinese American girl who is growing up in rural Ohio and her parents spot watercress growing in a ditch by the side of the road, and they immediately pull over and make her enter older brother, get out of the car and get down into the ditch with them and collect this. Vegetable, but to her it’s a weed. And so when they serve it to her and her family at dinner, she really is unhappy about this and. For her, picking food out of a ditch has a really different meaning than it does to her parents who survived a lot of hardship in China. And it’s not until her mom tells her a story about her childhood growing up in China and spoiler alert, loses a sibling to the famine that the girl begins to understand and better appreciate her parents, her culture, and her heritage.

Miko Lee: [00:43:29] And the inspiration for this book.

Andrea Wang: [00:43:32] So the inspiration is largely my own life. this is a semi autobiographical story. The memory of picking watercress by the side of the road was just something that I couldn’t forget, I don’t know why this memory continued to haunt me into adulthood. And then after my mom passed away, I started writing down, memories and stories of being with my family in order to maintain a connection to her. When I wrote this, at first it was a personal essay and it just wasn’t working. I would put it away and I would occasionally take it out and I would put it away and take it out and work on it again. And it wasn’t until I decided to pursue writing for young people that I completely changed the manuscript from a personal essay into a picture book. But at that point it still wasn’t working. It was in third person and it wasn’t very personal It took me several more years to figure out the heart of the story for me. So it was largely based on my own memories and my mother’s childhood stories that she shared with me.

Miko Lee: [00:44:39] Can you share more about the power of memory and the artistic process? ’cause you’ve written many books and in different genres as well, but can you talk a little bit more about memory and its impact on your work?

Andrea Wang: [00:44:52] Yeah, that’s a great question. I tend to write primarily for myself. And to figure out how I felt about certain experiences, how they’ve changed me, to try and process things I feel like I remember a lot about my childhood. parts of it are very vivid and I like to go back to those. Moments that have stuck with me all these years and explore what it means to me. Like I’m just very curious about why I remember certain things watercress was largely my way of processing my childhood feelings of shame about my family and my culture. I have leaned into that and am still writing stories about identity and the struggle to find our identity. Memory has a lot to do with it. I put myself in every single book.

Miko Lee: [00:45:45] Ooh, that’s so interesting. And you’re talking a little bit about shame and overcoming that. I’m wondering if you could speak more on, if you feel like memories hold the power to heal.

Andrea Wang: [00:45:56] I firmly believe that memories hold the power to heal. I think that writing watercress and talking about these feelings has really helped me, , heal from, that sort of trauma of not feeling like I belonged as a kid and also that I may have been. Not the nicest kid to my parents, not the most filial, right? And so writing this story was, as I say in the author’s note, sort of an apology and a love letter to my parents. So it’s been very healing and healing to hear about from all the. People who have read the book and had it resonate with them, the things that they regretted in their lives and hoped to, heal as well.

Miko Lee: [00:46:42] Oh, have you heard that story a lot from adult readers?

Andrea Wang: [00:46:46] I have. They will often tell me about the things that their parents did that embarrassed them. A lot of foraging stories, but also stories about, relatives and ancestors who were sharecroppers or indigenous peoples. And it’s just been fascinating how many people connect to the story on different levels. There is that theme of poverty. I think recognizing. That’s not often talked about in children’s books, I think makes people feel very seen.

Miko Lee: [00:47:14] Yeah. That feeling of shame is really showcased by the illustrator Jason Chin. I mean your young you character kind of has a grumpy look on their face. And it was just so fun. Even in the book notes, Jason Chin, the illustrator, writes about how he combined both the western and eastern style of art, but also his similar cross-cultural background. I’m wondering when you very first saw the artwork and this was kind of young you did anything surprise you by it?

Andrea Wang: [00:47:42] I mean, it’s amazing, gorgeous artwork and I was really struck by how he dealt with the flashbacks because when I sold this manuscript, I. Had no idea how an illustrator would deal with how interior it is and, , and how they would tackle those flashbacks. And there’s one spread where on the left hand side of the page, it shows the main character’s current time and then it morphs across the gutter of the book into. The moms past and her childhood memories in China, and it was just exquisite is really the only way to describe it. It was, it’s just brilliant, and amazing. We don’t, as picture book authors typically get to work with our illustrators. We often do not have contact with them through the making of a picture book. But in this case. Our editors said since it was such a personal story for me, that he, , felt that Jason and I should collaborate. And so I provided photos, family photos, photos of Ohio, lots of different, , source materials to Jason and would talk to him about the feelings that young me in the book went through. And so the fact that, he was able to take all of that and put it on the page, it was just. Spectacular.

Miko Lee: [00:49:01] Oh, that’s so fun. I also understand that you love mythical creatures as you I, and one of your children’s books is the Nian Monster, which I love. I’m wondering what is your favorite mythical creature and why?

Andrea Wang: [00:49:15] I. Have been sort of fascinated with the qilin, the, or they call it the Chinese unicorn. Right. Although it looks very different from what we think of a, a European unicorn looks like. Yes. And I think it’s because they’re supposed to be this really benevolent, creature and Have all sorts of powers and I would love to do more research about the qilin and, you know, incorporate that into a book someday.

Miko Lee: [00:49:42] Ooh, fun. Next book. I love it. you have so many books and I’m really curious about your upcoming book Worthy about Joseph Pierce. I love these as Helen Zia talks about these. MIH moments that are missing in history. And Joseph Pierce was the highest ranking Chinese American man who fought in the Civil War. Some people might recognize this picture of this Chinese American guy in a kind of civil war, uniform. Can you tell us one, when is the book being released and a little bit more about it?

Andrea Wang: [00:50:11] Sure. The book is being released on September 9th, 2025, and it is. A picture book, which we typically think of as for younger readers, but it is 64 pages. So you know, it’s an all ages picture book. I think my editor and I would like to say, and it is the story of a Chinese boy born in the, First half of the 18 hundreds in China in Guangdong province, and was sold by his father to an American ship captain named Amos Peck. the reasons for that are, lost to time, right? He left no primary sources behind, there was so much going on in China at the time. Famine war, you know, all of these, Difficult things that his father probably sold him in order to keep the rest of the family alive and as well as give him the opportunity to have a better life. And he did end up in Connecticut. He was raised with the captain’s, siblings and sent to school and treated almost like a member of the family except for the fact that he was. Clearly Chinese and there were very few Chinese people in, Connecticut at that time. he joined the Union Army when he came of age and was able to leverage his service into gaining citizenship, which really people of color, weren’t really able to do successfully back then. And so. He gained a citizenship. He married, he had a family. He was able to own property and accomplish all these amazing things. Sort of right before the Chinese exclusion Act was, enacted. So he was a very brave guy.

Miko Lee: [00:51:45] It’s a wild story and you sent me on a little bit of a rabbit hole, which is fun. Just, looking at Ruth Ann, McCune’s. historical piece that there were 10 different Chinese American men in the Civil War, but he was exceptional because he rose to such high ranks. And I just think it’s so interesting that, in the 1880 census, he registered as Chinese. But then after the Chinese Exclusion Act in 1882, he listed his race as Japanese in the 1890 census. but he was racialized as white so that he could buy property and everything. Yeah. Can you just talk a little bit about that, like talk about code switching? He like literally changed his race,

Andrea Wang: [00:52:26] right. And people at that time could not tell the difference. Similar to now, people often can’t tell different Asian, ethnicities apart. Right. I found actual newspaper articles where Joseph Pierce was interviewed about the battles, that the United States was having with Japan or the battles that Japan was having. He was asked his opinion on what the Japanese government was doing because he told these reporters he was Japanese and that was really the only clue that I had that he, Was code switching that after the Chinese exclusion Act was passed, he felt like he needed to protect himself and his family and he must have cut off his cue because otherwise, you know, that would’ve identified him immediately as Chinese. So that went into the book. I think it’s a powerful moment, right, where he’s doing what he has to do to survive and ensure his protection and his family’s safety,

Miko Lee: [00:53:25] You have a, a really interesting background. Just having No really, I mean, having done all these different things and I, you know, I think you have a science background too, right? Can you talk about the times that we’re living in right now, the political times that we’re living in, where our government is banning books that don’t align with certain conservative ideologies, where right now certain words are forbodden suddenly. And can you talk a little bit about how that impacts you as a children’s book author?

Andrea Wang: [00:53:59] it is very disheartening and discouraging that the current climate is against, people who look like me or other people of color. And as a children’s book author, we are experiencing a huge decrease in the number of teachers and librarians who are asking us to come and visit schools, to talk to students, which is horrible because. These young people are the ones who need to learn from books, right? Knowledge is power. And if we are not keeping them informed, then we are doing them a disservice. I think the attacks on our freedom to read are really unjust. and. personally as an author of color, I understand that books like Worthy may end up on some of these banned book lists because it does talk about racism. but these are the stories that we need now, and I’m going to continue writing these stories about the Hidden History, And to talk about these difficult subjects that I think kids understand on some level. but if they’re not reading about it in books, then it’s hard to spark a conversation with, educators or adults about it. So I think these books that I’m writing, that many of my friends and other children’s book authors are writing are providing that. Sort of gateway to talk about, the topics that are so important right now.

Miko Lee: [00:55:29] Thank you so much for sharing, and thank you so much for being on Apex Express today. We appreciate your voice and the work that you’re putting out there in the world. Is there anything else you’d like to say?

Andrea Wang: [00:55:39] you know, there’s so much to say, I think just to. Stand up for what we all believe in and to, I encourage people to stand up for their intellectual freedom and that of their children.

Miko Lee: [00:55:56] Thank you, Andrea Wang. I appreciate hearing from you and hearing your voice and seeing your work out there in the world.

Andrea Wang: [00:56:03] Thank you so much, Miko. It was a pleasure.

Miko Lee: [00:56:05] Please check out our website, kpfa.org. To find out more about our show tonight. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. Apex Express is created by Miko Lee, Jalena Keane-Lee, Preti Mangala-Shekar, Swati Rayasam, Aisa Villarosa, Estella Owoimaha-Church, Gabriel Tanglao, Cheryl Truong and Ayame Keane-Lee.

The post APEX Express – 5.29.25 AAPI Children’s Books appeared first on KPFA.
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Special Spring Fund Drive Programming: Josh Jackson on California’s Little-Known Public Wilderness
22 mag· KPFA - APEX Express
Today’s episode of APEX Express is preempted by special programming for KPFA’s 2025 Spring Fund Drive.
Brian Edwards-Tiekert speaks with photographer and author Josh Jackson, an advocate for public lands managed by the Bureau of Land Management (BLM). Through his Forgotten Lands Project, he employs storytelling and visual narratives to inspire engagement with California’s unknown landscapes. His latest book is The Enduring Wild: A Journey Into California’s Public Lands.
To support our mission and receive Josh Jackson’s book The Enduring Wild as a thank-you gift, please donate here or call (800) 439-5732 (800-HEY-KPFA).

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Special Spring Fund Drive Programming: Norma Wong on a Zen and Indigenous Perspective
15 mag· KPFA - APEX Express
Today’s episodes of Our World As We See It and Education Today are preempted by special programming for KPFA’s 2025 Spring Fund Drive.
C.S. Soong speaks with Norma Wong about her book When No Thing Works: A Zen and Indigenous Perspective on Resilience, Shared Purpose, and Leadership in the Timeplace of Collapse.
To support our mission and receive Norma Wong’s book When No Thing Works as a thank-you gift, please donate here or call (800) 439-5732 (800-HEY-KPFA).

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Special Spring Fund Drive Programming: Richard Walker on the Role of Industry in Building Cities
8 mag· KPFA - APEX Express
Today’s episode of APEX Express is preempted by special programming for KPFA’s 2025 Spring Fund Drive.
Liam O’Donoghue speaks with renown geographer and author Richard Walker about his view of cities as living organisms and the role industry plays in development and ongoing health of cities. This live event which took place in Berkeley, California on March 27, 2025.
To support our mission and receive Richard Walker’s book Pictures of a Gone City: Tech and the Dark Side of Prosperity in the San Francisco Bay Area as a thank-you gift, please donate here or call (800) 439-5732 (800-HEY-KPFA).

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APEX Express – 5.1.25 – Filmmakers Exploring Boundaries
1 mag· KPFA - APEX Express
A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.
Host Miko Lee celebrates AAPINH Month by interviewing Filmmakers: Sara Kambe Holland, Alleluiah Panis, and Kyle Casey Chu, also known as Panda Dulce. We also cover a bunch of AAPINH month events happening throughout the Bay Area.

Calendar of Events
Community Calendar
May 3 2-6pm Daly City AAPI Fest celebrating local Asian American & Pacific Islander culture in Daly City and the Greater San Francisco Bay Area

May 10 10am-12pm PT Our Heritage 5K 2025 a FREE, family-friendly 5K fun walk/run honoring the rich history and contributions of Asian American and Pacific Islander communities in San Francisco.
This scenic route winds through the heart of the city, passing by over 16+ historic AAPI landmarks—featuring goodies, resources, and fun facts about its cultural significance. Expect cheer stations, photo ops, sweet treats, and entertainment along the route to keep the energy high!
May 10th is also AAPI Mental Health Day! The Our Wellness Festival, will celebrate mental health, community, and joy. The festival will feature family-friendly activities, carnival-style games, music, dancing, wellness resources, and more!
May 23 at 5:30 pm – 8:30 pm Asian American and Pacific Islander LGBTQ2S+ Mixer
NJAHS Peace Gallery 1684 Post Street, San Francisco
Children’s Fairyland in Oakland, and Stanford’s Asian American studies department host a series of events throughout the month that we will post in the show notes for you to check out.
Bay Area Public Libraries AAPI Month
Oakland public libraries feature reading lists for all ages, a grab and grow seedling kit and events like watermelon kimchi making!San Francisco Public Libraries There will be events for all ages at Library locations throughout the City, including free author talks, book clubs, film screenings, crafts, food programs and musical and dance performances.
San Jose Public libraries host a series of events with a highlights being Tapa Cloth making on May 6 and Vegan Filipino Cooking with Astig Vegan on May 7
Berkeley public libraries
CAAMFest 2025
United States of Asian America Through June 1

Transcript: Filmmakers Exploring Boundaries

Opening: [00:00:00] Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express.

Ayame Keane-Lee: [00:00:57] Welcome to Apex Express and happy Asian American and Pacific Islander Heritage Month. Even though the Trump administration has eliminated recognizing cultural heritage months, we are still celebrating diversity and inclusion. Here at Apex Express and KPFA, we believe in lifting up people’s voices. And tonight on Apex Express, we are focusing on Asian American filmmakers exploring boundaries. Host Mika Lee talks with filmmakers, creators, writers Sarah Kambe Holland, Alleluiah Panis, and Kyle Casey Chu, also known as Panda Dulce. Join us on Apex Express.

Miko Lee: [00:01:51] Welcome, Sarah Kambe Holland, the amazing young filmmaker, writer, director, here to talk about your very first film, egghead and Twinkie. Welcome to Apex Express.

Sarah Kambe Holland: [00:02:04] Thanks so much for having me.

Miko Lee: [00:02:06] So first I’m gonna start with a personal question, which is an adaptation from the amazing poet Chinaka Hodges.
And my first question is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?

Sarah Kambe Holland: [00:02:19] Oh wow. What a great question. , I think that I represent my family and my heritage. I’m mixed, so I’m half Japanese and half British. I grew up partially in Japan and partially in the States. I feel like those experiences, my family, they make up who I am and the stories that I wanna tell.

Miko Lee: [00:02:41] And what legacy do you carry with you?

Sarah Kambe Holland: [00:02:45] I think the legacy of my family, my grandparents on both sides have overcome so much, and, , they’re a big inspiration to me. Funny enough, my grandparents play kind of a secret role in this film. My grandparents on my mom’s side were incarcerated in the Japanese American camps. My grandmom, my British side overcame a lot of adversity as well in her life. , I think that’s the legacy that I carry.

Miko Lee: [00:03:09] Thank you. Tell me a little more, what secret role do your grandparents play in the film?

Sarah Kambe Holland: [00:03:14] all my grandparents have always been very supportive of, my art and my filmmaking. But my grandparents on my mom’s side, they passed away ahead of the making of this film. And I inherited my grandfather’s car. And that car is the car in the movie that, Egghead Twinkie drive cross country. So I like to think that this is their way of supporting me. I think that they would get a kick out of the fact that their car is like a main character in the film,

Miko Lee: [00:03:41] literally carrying you on your journey. I had so much fun watching the film. Can you share with our audience a little bit about what the film is about and what inspired you to create this?

Sarah Kambe Holland: [00:03:52] So the film is called Egghead and Twinkie, and it’s about this mixed Asian teenage lesbian named Twinkie who’s coming out and her best friend Egghead, who unfortunately is in love with her and she does not feel the same. , and they end up going on this cross country road trip to meet Twinkie Online love interest IRL for the very first time. So it’s kind of like a buddy comedy road trip movie. Coming of age queer story, , and it’s one that’s very personal to me, I think is a mixed Asian queer person. This was a story I was drawn to tell because it was a story that I didn’t really see on screen when I was growing up.

Miko Lee: [00:04:30] Can you talk to me a little bit more about the use of the name Twinkie, which for many folks in the A API community is seen as a slur, and I know she talks about it a little in the film, but can you share more how you came up with that?

Sarah Kambe Holland: [00:04:44] Yes, it’s a very nuanced thing and it’s something I was kind of nervous to tackle, especially like in a comedy film. , but really with the creation of Twinkie’s character, , I feel like she’s going on this journey to embrace herself as a lesbian, as a gay woman, but then also I think that she’s searching for herself as a mixed Asian person. I feel like within the Asian American community, if you’re raised here in the US or if you’re mixed or if you’re adopted, I think that there can be this feeling of not feeling Asian enough. I think the word Twinkie was something that was kind of weaponized against her. Like, oh, you know, you’re not Asian enough, you’re a Twinkie. And her way of coping with that is to kind of reclaim that word and kind of own that. As her own name.

Miko Lee: [00:05:31] Thank you so much for sharing. I read online that this is the very first feature film to be crowdfunded on TikTok. Can you talk a little bit about, I know your background is in as a social media creator. Can you talk about that journey from social media creator to filmmaker?

Sarah Kambe Holland: [00:05:51] Yes. Yeah. TikTok and social media was such a big part of getting this film made. Uh, so for myself, yeah. I was a YouTuber before I was a filmmaker. I should be clear, I wasn’t like PewDiePie or anything like that. I had like 40,000 followers. Um, but for me at that time when I was like 15, 16, that felt like the whole world. Um, and I think that YouTube was really my first introduction to. Storytelling, but also to making friends with people through the internet. And that ended up being a really big influence on this film because Twinkie is traveling cross country to meet a girl that she meets online. And I think that that is such a common story nowadays. Like people make friends online all the time. Um, and the ways that we find love and community has changed.Because of the internet. Um, so it felt very appropriate that we turned to TikTok turned to social media as a means to raise money for this film. Uh, we did a whole targeted crowdfunding campaign on TikTok and we raised over $20,000 from a lot of strangers that I will never meet, but I owe a lot of thanks to.

Miko Lee: [00:06:53] So now that the film has been going out to different festivals and being screened at different places, have any of those that participated in the crowdfund, have you met any of those kind of anonymous supporters?

Sarah Kambe Holland: [00:07:05] Yes. And that was crazy. it was awesome. We screened it over 40 festivals all around the world. Our international premiere was at the British Film Institute in London. And it was at that screening that someone raised their hand during the q and a and they were like, I just wanted you to know that I backed your movie, uh, and I found you on TikTok. And that just blew my mind that someone on the other side of the world, you know, had donated whatever, you know, 10, 20 bucks to making this thing a reality.

Miko Lee: [00:07:31] Oh, I love that when the anonymous becomes real like a person in front of you that you can actually meet. How fun. I’m wondering if your use of animation is, , been influenced by your social media background.

Sarah Kambe Holland: [00:07:45] Not really. Actually. I think the animation part of this film is just because I’m a total nerd. I really love animation, I love comics. And so that kind of bled into Twinkies character. You know, she loves comics, she wants to be an animator. And, uh, I think I’ve always been interested in the idea of combining 2D animation with live action footage. I feel like that’s something that we see a lot in like children’s movies or, um.Music videos, but it’s not something that you really see in like, feature films all that often. So I was kind of excited to explore that, and it was a really fun collaboration with myself and our lead animator, Dylan Ello, who did most of the animations in the movie.

Miko Lee: [00:08:28] Oh, thank you for that. I, I, it was very delightful.
Um, I’m wondering, because we’re, our world right now is incredibly complicated and so conflicted. How do you feel filmmaking can make a difference?

Sarah Kambe Holland: [00:08:44] I feel like art is more important now than ever because I see even in just this film’s journey how art literature and movies, it can change people’s minds and they don’t even realize that their minds are changing.I think especially with this film, ’cause it’s so lighthearted and funny and silly, you’d be like, oh, it’s just, you know, a good laugh and that’s it. But, but not really. I’ve seen this film. Open doors and open conversations. And I think that that’s really my hope is that maybe, you know, parents who have a queer kid and they’re not sure what to do about it, maybe they’ll watch this film and they’ll be able to talk to their kid about things that maybe they’re afraid to talk about. I think that art really has the power to, to change people’s minds.

Miko Lee: [00:09:29] Have you experienced that with somebody that has actually seen your film, that you’ve had a conversation with them where they walked away, changed from seeing it?

Sarah Kambe Holland: [00:09:38] Well, on a very personal level, um, my parents, uh, are conservative and I think when I first came out to them, it was an adjustment for sure. Um, I. When I initially kind of pitched the idea of Egghead and Twinkie to them years, years ago, uh, as a short film, they were confused. They were like, why do you wanna make this film about being gay? Like, why do you have to make everything about being gay? And that’s not really what it was. I just wanted to tell this story.
And it’s been such an amazing journey to see my parents like fully embrace this movie. Like they are egghead and Twinkie biggest fans. They might love this movie more than me. Uh, so that has been really amazing to be able to kind of talk to them about queer issues in my identity through the making of this movie.

Miko Lee: [00:10:24] I love that. So let our audience know how they can see your film, egghead and Twinkie.

Sarah Kambe Holland: [00:10:31] So Egg and Twinkie is coming out on streaming platforms on April 29th. It’ll be on Apple tv, Amazon Prime, uh, any video on demand streaming platform in North America.

Miko Lee: [00:10:43] Yay. And Sarah, what are you working on next?

Sarah Kambe Holland: [00:10:46] Oh boy, have a big question.
Uh, I have a few screenplays in the works, one of which is a time traveling lesbian rom-com. So, uh, I’m waiting for when I get the big bucks so I can make my first period piece.

Miko Lee: [00:10:59] Love it. Sounds fun. , thank you so much for sharing with us. It was such a delight to see your film and I look forward to seeing more of your work.

Sarah Kambe Holland: [00:11:08] Thanks so much for having me, Miko. This was great.

Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:11:11] Listen to Kushimoto Bushi by Minyo crusaders, a Japanese cumbia band

MUSIC

Welcome back. This is the Powerleegirls on apex express, and that was Kushimoto Bushi by Minyo Crusaders

Miko Lee: [00:15:24] Welcome, Alleluia Panis, the Executive Director of Kularts to Apex Express.

Alleluia Panis: [00:15:30] Thank you. I’m so honored to be here.

Miko Lee: [00:15:34] I wanna talk with you about your film, but first I wanna start with a personal question, which is an adaptation from the amazing poet Chinaka Hodges. And that is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?

Alleluia Panis: [00:15:49] Wow, that’s deep who are my people? My people is my community. And so it is here in, in the diaspora, Filipino Americans, Asian Americans, and folks of color. And then of course the indigenous people in the Philippines. . What I carry with me and continues to inspire me on the daily is the knowing that we have been here for a long time. Our ancestors have survived eons of whether it’s, good times and bad times. And so that keeps me going.

Miko Lee: [00:16:28] Thank you so much for sharing. you have been working in the field for a long time. You’re really, , a trailblazer in terms of putting Filipino arts on the map and really lifting up the culture. Can you talk about your new film Memories of Mindanao, where that came from, what it’s all about?

Alleluia Panis: [00:16:49] Is a leg of, , Tribo tour, which began in 2002. But actually inspired by my first trip to, , then the wild and being with in 1989 , and, , basically traveling and. Setting myself and my, my, my music and dance company at the time to just be with indigenous people. ,and how profoundly that particular experience really impacted me. For years I’ve been wanting to like, how can I bring this? Experience or share the experience with other diasporic folks. Fortunately I was able to connect with Carlo Abeo in the Philippines, who’s been my tour manager, in 2001. And then in 2002 we embarked on the first, Tribo tour.

Miko Lee: [00:17:50] So this was an effort to really share this powerful kind of artistic travel journey with more folks. Is that right?

Alleluia Panis: [00:17:57] Yes. And it’s actually beyond artistic. It’s really about recognizing something deeper, right? Because our history of colonization is pretty intense. 500 years and or is it 400 years? Give or take, a century. And so there are a lot of things that had been co-opted. It has been erased, it has been gaslit. And fortunately, I feel like within the culture of the archipelago, there are, and even those. That are, of the, what is considered the colonized people or the Christianized people.
there are practices that exist today that might have a different name, um, or but actually is indigenous and so, and only. Could I say that because I was able to really experience and be with folks and, uh, and it’s years, you know, it’s years of kind of like assessing and looking at you know, different, uh, practices. And so that is so I don’t know. It’s beyond gratifying. It’s connecting. I mean, it seems so cliche. It’s connecting with something so deep, you know, it’s like connecting to, you know, to Mother Earth in, in that way our, our Mama Ocean. And recognizing yourself that, that you are bigger and have, and has agency, you know, in terms of just. What you are connected to, uh, what we are connected to. Um, and so it’s, it’s it, of course within the cultural practices, which is artistic practices that we see that connection.

Miko Lee: [00:19:40] You were looking at, the impact of colonization and how arts and culture has really spoke to that or fought back against that in the Philippines. Can you talk about bringing that over to our colonized United States and how you see that playing out?

Alleluia Panis: [00:19:58] Well, I think first of all as, um, as folks of color. And as former subjects of the United States, you know, 40 years of the US and still, still, um, you know, in some ways kind of soft power over the people of the Archipelago. It’s, it’s really, um, first and foremost knowing or getting that sense of connection and confidence and, um, self-identity. That leads, that would lead us to create, um, in the diaspora. And so what, what this pro with this project, this particular program does and, and I continue to prove it with so many folks, is that it’s really. Kind of finding yourself, I mean, that, that seems so cliche and knowing your place in the world and how you are connected so deeply despite all the, you know, like all the brainwashing that you don’t know anything. Everything is, uh, you know, everything that, that, that, um, that exists in terms of the cultural practices of the arch of the people of the archipelago are borrowed or, or, um. Basically borrowed or taken from another culture, um, really kind of diminishes that, that colonized thinking. And so I think the power of it is finding your stepping into your own power in this way. Um, and, and, um, you know, it is also not just the current, like in, in once lifetime do you get that abuse or trauma, but it’s also all the. You know, the, the, the inheritance from our, you know, from our parents, from our grandparents, right? Great. Passed down the generation and, um, oftentimes construed as the real deal, unt true. And so, aside from the form. Aside from, um, the practices, because this trip is really a little, is is focused more on not learning or like, you know, we don’t go to learn like dance music or. Weaving or, you know, design or anything like that. Yes, that happens. We do, we do have workshops, but you know, it’s not like it’s, it’s more like opening the ice of each, you know, individual. I. To the, to the, the whole, the whole thing. What, what is the, the presence of nature is, are they water people? Well, how does the water impact the cultural practices and therefore the artistic practices, um, and understanding sort of like, oh, they, they do that kind of steps with the, you know, flat feet or whatever.
Because the sound of the bamboo slats is just. Amazing, you know, uh, under their feet. And so it’s not so much that I’m gonna learn, you know, x, y, Z dance or x, y, z music, music or gongs, or, but it’s more like w. Through those practices, how do we see the people, how do they mirror our own existence? And what, what we can remember really is remembering, um, what my, what, what we have forgotten or what we know it’s true, but we’re not sure. So I dunno if I’m answering your question. It’s a roundabout response.

Miko Lee:[00:23:26] I feel like you’re talking about how we step into our ancestral wisdom and power.

Alleluia Panis: [00:23:33] Correct.

Miko Lee: [00:23:33] And I’m wondering if you can expand on that,, to talk a little bit more about this time of oligarchy we are living in, which is really built in colonization. How do we both as artists use our superpowers to fight back against that and then encourage other people? How do we use our artist beings to encourage other people to fight back against the world that we’re living in right now?
Alleluia Panis: [00:24:00] One of the most powerful impact on me , in experiencing, indigenous practices and culture is the practice of spirituality, the rituals, the ceremonies. There’s one specific ceremony from Ana as a magana on ceremony, um, that really, It was just such a profound experience in opening up, my senses and my sense of connection to something larger than this. And, and the EPO and, um, there’s several, um. Ritual practices with different names. It’s basically similar, uh, practice, uh, is the connection to the five elements and the basic, um, um, and fundamental elements of life. You know, water, earth, wind, fire, and the darkness. The, there’s a transcendence. Um. And that that discovery is a, or that connection, um, is something that’s, it sounds really woo woo, right? I mean, um, but it really becomes kind of a, a, an experience, an embodiment experience, a belief in your own kind of intuition, your gut feeling. My, uh, my. Um, response, you know, to it, a physical response. And, um, that, that’s become like a, a guide for, for everything that I do. And so, um, to me that that is the grounding that, um, has allowed me to continue the work that that. That I’ve been doing, continue living, period. And so it’s really, I think the, a matter of really kind of like, knowing yourself, it just sounds all so cliche, you know? And, and, the power of, Really understanding that you have or I have a depth of connection, that I can draw from in terms of energy and spirit and love, that is beyond kind of the physical, but also the physical. And so for me, that sense of knowing.
Is what is allowing me to continue doing what I do despite all the, you know, challenges and difficulties and, you know, the insanity of these times or any time. and having kind of that grounding, I mean, you, you, the, the, clarity, is everything. it allows me to. follow what seems to be the correct route to wherever I was going. it doesn’t mean that it’s, it’s, I’m, I’m not working on it, you know, but I’m also not, not pushing in a way that, you know, I’m, I’m gonna make you believe in me and I’ll, you know, like, sort of like, I will tell you what is the right thing and, and, and I will make you, um, agree with me. It, it’s, it’s not that. Um, I is, I dunno. Is that making any sense? Do you have any other,

Miko Lee: [00:27:24] you totally make sense to me. I’m wondering how people can find out how, how can people find out more about your film and about all of your work?

Alleluia Panis: [00:27:34] Oh, sure. people can find out about, my work and the film through, um, the website. It’s, uh, KulArts SF dot org and, most of, if not all of my work, uh, and the work of others, are actually on there. There’s a lot of information there. the, the film is gonna be shown at the Los Angeles Asian Pacific, film Festival May 3rd at, uh, a MC. Eight or 14 or is it in, Monterey Park and, folks can actually just find that information on our website as well.

Miko Lee: [00:28:13] And what would you like audience to walk away from your film with an understanding of?

Alleluia Panis: [00:28:21] I want the audience to feel the. Power of being there in TT T is the southernness most islands of, of the Philippines. And, not too many people actually go there. If you have seen the Sam Baja, um, you know, divers, uh, where they can dive for, I think they can stay from five to 15 minutes underwater without any, you know, oxygen or assistance.
These are, these are the people who, who, uh, these islands belong to. and as usual, their, you know, their live livelihood is being challenged by everything that’s happening in the world. And what the, the film itself, itself, is really trying to put, put the audience within the, you know, like the, I guess the, the shoe of the there and how, you know, their experiences.
there’s not a lot of explanation to it because we really want it to be a more visceral experience. for the audience,

Miko Lee: [00:29:22] is there anything else you’d like to share with us?

Alleluia Panis: [00:29:26] Let’s keep on going. Let’s, you know, we, we all, we all need to be in community to uplift each other and keep hope alive.

Miko Lee: [00:29:38] Thank you so much for joining us today and sharing a little bit more about your film and about your work and your connection to the ancestors and the need to move forward.

Alleluia Panis: [00:29:47] Appreciate you. Thank you, Miko.

Miko Lee: [00:29:51] Welcome Kyle Casey, Chu, also known as Panda Dulce to Apex Express.

Kyle Casey Chu: [00:29:57] Hi so much for having me.

Miko Lee: [00:29:59] We’re so happy to have you back here, onto Apex Express Land and you have a bunch of new things happening, not just a new film, but also a new book. First off, I’m gonna just start with a personal question, which I ask everyone. Who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?

Kyle Casey Chu: [00:30:16] Ooh, that’s a juicy one. Um, my people, I would say my people are the weirdos and the art freaks of the world. Uh, queer and trans people, Asian Americans, queer and trans Asian Americans, people of color, people from the Bay Area. Um, people who have noticed the boxes that they’re in and are pushing the walls and the boundaries of that. I feel like these are the people who really inspire me the most. In terms of the legacy I bring, I am a fourth generation Chinese American, uh, queer and trans femme person living in the San Francisco Bay area where I was born and raised.

Miko Lee: [00:30:56] Thanks so much for sharing. , first let’s start with just finding out more about your film, which was based on a true story called After What Happened at the Library. This was a national story, I remember hearing about it, but for folks that don’t know, can you describe the real incident that inspired the film?

Kyle Casey Chu: [00:31:14] So, I’m one of the founders of Drag Story Hour, which is exactly what it sounds like., drag queens reading stories to, , children and their families and libraries, bookstores and schools. In 2022, I took a gig in Pride Month at San Lorenzo Public Library, , where I was doing a drag story hour and the Proud Boys stormed in. They called me a tranny, a groomer and an it. They wore shirts saying, kill your local pedophile and I had to retreat to the back and lock myself in the back room. They scoured the premises looking for me. , the authorities showed up and didn’t get any of their names or information, um, and just. Dispersed them. And after the incident, I came back to the reading room where the children and families were there, but shaken and I completed the reading.

Miko Lee: [00:32:05] Incredibly traumatic. What happened after that in real life?

Kyle Casey Chu: [00:32:10] It’s funny that you, uh, because the short film is called After What Happened at the Library, uh, for a reason because I feel like it’s natural as social creatures for humans to focus on the incident itself. We want to approach people with empathy and we want to, really put ourselves in their shoes, uh, to kind of be there as a support for them.
What I wasn’t prepared for was the gauntlet of media attention, how people would be coming out of the woodwork to ask me about the situation. They would send gushing praise, hate mail, death threats, love letters, care packages, and this wave of attention. Almost added to the overwhelm of the experience and the fact that I had suddenly become a figure and a lightning rod in a culture war when I just wanted to read a book in a library.
’cause that’s what I was doing. Um, and not only this, but in the coverage of the event. Because the authorities were so slow to act on this and only started investigating it as a hate crime after it blew up on Instagram and they suddenly felt the heat of media attention. Um, I felt the, my only recourse was to go to the media and was to talk, and especially as a writer and a storyteller, I felt I needed to kind of sound the alarm because it was pride month.
This was the first, this was the inciting incident of a national, even international anti-D drag wave of right wing extremism. Um, it was a couple days later that the oath keepers were found planning some kind of resistance, like violent insurrection in before Ohio Pride. And so I would talk to these journalists and. I felt in the beginning I trusted them because, you know, I trusted that they wanted to get the word out, that they had the same intentions that I did in protecting my people. And what I found instead was that they kind of almost, they tried to elicit the most emotional response from me, which often involved asking me to relive the most excruciating aspects of that time and that experience. So I had to go back and revisit it over and over again. And when the stories actually came out, I’d found that my story was edited to suit another preconceived formula that they had already pitched a certain idea for how the story was would go. That painted me as this static monolithic victim. And they would just plug in one tearful soundbite and the rest of the story, they could just say whatever they wanted with.And there’s a certain violence in that. There’s a certain. Greater injustice to going through something like that, number one. But number two, telling your story and having that be distorted to suit other political aims or to, you know, buttress a call for public safety. And that specific dynamic of the direct aftermath of notoriety is what the short film gets at.

Miko Lee: [00:35:11] Oh so you’re taking back your own story.

Kyle Casey Chu: [00:35:14] Absolutely. So after what happened at the library, the short film is a very much a radical reclamation of my own voice and my own story. Um, prying it back from the hands of the media and telling it on my own terms.

Miko Lee: [00:35:26] Thank you for that. And how has it been received

Kyle Casey Chu: [00:35:29] So far it’s been received very well. The short film World premiered at Florida Film Festival in Orlando. Received a special jury prize for courageous voice in a time of great need, which is incredible. It’s our first screening and we already got an award, which is so exciting. It just screened at SF Film on April 23rd as part of the shorts block.
SF film is an Academy Award qualifying festival, and it is going to screen again at Can Fest, one of my favorite local festivals, the world’s largest Asian and Asian American film showcase it’s screening on Friday, May 9th at Kabuki and tickets are on sale.

Miko Lee: [00:36:11] Thank you for that. And can you tell us about your new book? This is very exciting. You have a coming of age story, the Queen Bees of Tybee County. Can you tell us about your book?

Kyle Casey Chu: [00:36:22] Absolutely. When it rains, it pours in creative worlds. I had a lot of irons on the fire and it just so happened that all of them were exhibiting or debuting or hitting shelves in the same week of April, which is last week. The Queen Bees of Tybee County is my debut novel. It’s middle grade, so for ages eight through 12, though like a Pixar movie, it’s for all ages really. Um, and it is a hopeful drag coming out story about a queer Chinese American seventh grade basketball star. Derek Chan, who is unceremoniously shipped off to his grandma Claudia’s in rural Georgia, and she is volunteering for a local pageant. And so he. Explores his queer identity and his love for drag via Southern pageant culture.

Miko Lee: [00:37:09] Ooh, do we see a film of this in the future?

Kyle Casey Chu: [00:37:12] Actually, Queen Bees of Tybee County was optioned by Lambert Productions, which put on the Hardy Boys on Hulu. So it is on its way to becoming a TV show if every, if all the stars align, it’ll be on TVs in the uk. Fingers and toes crossed for that.

Miko Lee: [00:37:27] Amazing. I’m looking forward to that. Can we pull ourselves out a little bit and talk about the times that we’re living in right now and how artists use our super powers to fight back against the oligarchy that we’re living in?

Kyle Casey Chu: [00:37:43] We all know, or perhaps should know that the beginnings of fascism involve suppressing intellectuals and artistic voices, increasing police presence and trying to maintain a stiff and consistent lid on the voices of the people. And so this type of suppression is happening right now. There are book bans across the country. , there are state and federal efforts legislatively to curtail the rights of trans kids and trans athletes, and Intellectuals, diplomats and scholars are all being expelled or suppressed, and I think something that I’ve learned is that, and it sounds really cheesy, but that quote is so real where it’s like being brave isn’t the absence of fear, but it’s doing things in spite of it. I know it feels very scary to speak out right now, but now is the exact time to speak out because any.
Ground that is seated cannot be taken back. And so holding of the line by way of protest, by way of publication, by way of dissenting is how we crack this. The armor of fascism.

Miko Lee: [00:38:55] And can you talk a little bit about the moment of joy or celebrating joy within the context of the strife that we’re living in? I bring that up because , you’ve given me much joy as part of the rice rocketts and a lot of the work that you do. So I wonder if you could just talk about what does joy mean in the moment like this?

Kyle Casey Chu: [00:39:16] Yeah. I think. I have a background in social work and one of the first things that we learned is this is hard work. It is hard to always start on your back foot and to have to argue your own humanity and justify your existence as an artist or as a person. I found myself doing that when coverage of the library incident was happening and. One of the things that they tell you is the way that you do your best work and the way that you best serve your communities is by keeping your own self afloat. And what this means is maintaining a balance. When you have hard work, you also need to reward yourself. You also need to take care of yourself. And I don’t think it’s enough to just say self-care. You need to expose yourself, and you need to fully embrace the full spectrum of human emotion, which necessarily includes joy. And so. After completing such an intense project, like after what happened at the library, I knew that I needed to engage in something that was hopeful and that really struck the cord of why community is so vital and important, and why social support is integral to all of us thriving. And so the Queen Bees of Tubby County, I was told by a reviewer, and this is my favorite review, they said that it’s like Chapel R’S Pink Pony Club. If it were a book. Um, and I’m going with that ’cause I love that. But this story is really just about hope. It’s about friendship, it’s about, it’s about dancing towards the future we want. And I don’t think it is enough for us to react. I don’t think it’s enough for us to strike down. Terrible and horrifying regimes. We also must have a vision for the future that includes ourselves thriving and enjoying ourselves. And I think a part of that practice for me is making art and scaffolding a vision for the future that is positive.

Miko Lee: [00:41:20] And what would you like people to walk away from after either reading your book or seeing your short film?

Kyle Casey Chu: [00:41:29] I think after seeing the short film. What this gets at is whenever there’s a flashpoint of a culture war and it’s localized on one person, whenever a culture war is personified in one singular person, like for example, ma Moon kil. There’s only so much of his life that we get to see, and it’s through the headlines and this viral moment of like a flash on the pan. And I want people to realize that the way that you interact with these people in that fleeting moment is going to stick with them long after this moment of notoriety passes. And. To be conscientious and aware of what impact you’re bringing to that person because it may just be a moment or a blip in your feed, but the impact is enduring for the person who’s living it. And I also want us to be critical of how we consume trauma and violence in the media, and to ask ourselves if. We really, truly need to get all the details if we really, truly need to be put, put that victim in the position of reliving their experience just so we can relive it for a moment. Whereas they will have to relive it for the rest of their lives. And I think survivor narratives and victim narratives are way more messy and complicated and sometimes funny than people give it credit for or realize. And to realize that when you are reading something. That is just one dimension in one shade. Uh, yeah. So that was a lot, sorry. But, um, the other thing is for the Queen Bees of Tybee County. And the reason why I wanted to end on that is because it’s uplifting is as dark as the world can be. It can also be as dazzling and bright and hopeful, and that the future that we are fighting for is worth fighting for. And we need to remind ourselves of that. Especially in times like these, and I know it might seem counterintuitive for us to celebrate or to be around each other when it feels earth shatteringly bleak, but it is essential to our survival, and don’t be afraid to embrace that.

Miko Lee: [00:44:00] Kyle, thank you so much. Kyle, Casey Chu, thank you so much for joining us on Apex Express. I encourage people to check the film out and the book out and we appreciate chatting with you.

Kyle Casey Chu: [00:44:11] Thanks so much.

Ayame Keane-Lee: [00:44:14] Kyle’s film will be showcased at Cam Fest, the nation’s largest showcase for new Asian American and Asian films, which runs from May 8th to 11th in San Francisco at a time when it feels particularly fraught to express stories from communities of color. Cam is doing what we’ve done for over 40 years, sharing films from Asian America to a wide array of audiences. It says, Cam’s, director of programs, Dawn Young. Watching these stories in a theater full of friends and neighbors is an opportunity to laugh and cry, and ultimately to celebrate human experiences that transcend bounds. This year’s festival will return to the A MC Kabuki in San Francisco’s Japan town for opening night, and a total of four days of screenings in the historic neighborhood that is undergoing its own resurgence with new restaurants, cafes, and boutiques, highlighting both traditional and youth oriented culture. The Roxy Theater will also host three days of screenings. Cam Fest continues to strengthen ties with other local arts institutions with the Asian Art Museum hosting the Cam Fest gala. Following the opening night film on Thursday May 8th and SF M Om a opening the Phyllis Wa Theater for Mother’s Day programming on Sunday, May 10th. Turning a lens on history, whether it’s the end of the Vietnam War or the trailblazing women in the Bay Area, offers a chance to reconsider the stories through which we come to understand ourselves. Says Cam Fest program Manager Del Holton, ranging from intimate narratives of family and memory to experimental work that bends the conventions of storytelling. These films illuminate the many perspectives of Asian America.

CAAM Fest 2025 wraps up on Mother’s Day with dedicated events that highlight strength and visionary artistry of Asian American women. You can also catch my sister Jalena Keane-Lee’s film Standing Above the Clouds at 5:00 PM at the Kabuki. Honoring Mothering also includes celebrating the nurturing of community and pioneering of aesthetics. Cam’s final day reflects on the contributions of Asian American women’s work while looking to the future of storytelling. Another major multimedia arts, dance and music festival to check out is the annual United States of Asian America which runs through June 1st at venues around the Bay Area. This year’s theme Critical Refuge asks us to reflect on our journey as immigrants, refugees, and generations of descendants and or mixed raced people in the diaspora as we seek necessary sanctuary within ourselves and in our communities in times of unrest and uncertainty. The festival will honor a API Arts and Culture, reflecting on where we have been, where we are now, and what our collective future holds, while acknowledging our roots as immigrants, refugees, and mixed race descendants. Also check out the 42nd annual Himalayan Fair in Berkeley’s Live Oak Park happening May 17th and 18th. There will be Himalayan Food, handicrafts, music, and Dance. There are so many events happening in celebration of Asian American and Pacific Islander Heritage Month. Check out our show notes for links to all the wheelchair accessible events In addition to the films we featured tonight, camp Fest and United States of Asian America, there is also May 3rd, two to 6:00 PM daily city AAPI fest celebrating local Asian American and Pacific Islander culture in daily city in the greater San Francisco Bay area.

May 10th, 10:00 AM to 12:00 PM Our heritage, 5K 2025. A free family friendly, 5K fun walk slash run. Honoring the rich history and contributions of Asian American and Pacific Islander communities in San Francisco. This scenic route winds through the heart of the city. Passing by over 16 plus historic A API Landmarks featuring goodies, resources, and fun facts about its cultural significance. Expect cheer stations, photo ops, sweet treats, and entertainment along the route to keep the energy high. May 10th is also a API Mental Health Day. The Our Wellness Festival will celebrate mental health, community and joy. The festival will feature family friendly activities, carnival style games, music, dancing, wellness resources, and more. May 23rd at 5:30 PM to 8:30 PM Asian American and Pacific Islander, LGBT Q2 s plus Mixer, NJAHS, peace Gallery 1684 Post Street in San Francisco.
Children’s Fairyland in Oakland and Stanford’s Asian American Studies apartment will also host a series of events throughout the month that we will post in the show notes for you to check out in Bay Area Public Library News. Oakland Public Libraries feature reading lists for all ages, a grab and grow seedling kit and events like Watermelon Kimchi making.
San Francisco Public Libraries will have events for all ages at library locations throughout the city, including free author talks, book clubs, film screenings, crafts, food programs, and musical and dance performances. Highlights for adults include the launch of Corky Lee’s Asian America at the main library on May 23rd. The new book features over 200 breathtaking photos celebrating the history and cultural impact of the Asian American Social Justice movement. We’ve covered Corky Lee’s work in multiple previous Apex episodes.

Additionally, four members of the Asian American Journalist Association, AAJA, who cover the Asian American and Pacific Islander News beat will discuss how authentic local reporting happens, important stories they’ve reported recently, and how having reporters dedicated to the BEAT impacts the A API community on May 8th, moderated by the interim president of the AAJA-SF Bay Area chapter Harry Mock. The panel features Ko Lyn Chang from the San Francisco Chronicle, Han Lee from the San Francisco Standard, and Ravi Kapoor, CEO of Dia, TV on May 25th. The library partners with the Chinese Cultural Center of San Francisco to welcome Curtis Chin, author of everything I Learned, I learned in a Chinese restaurant for a book talk and library popup. For youth on May 25th, join June Jo Lee Food ethnographer and award-winning children’s book author for a kimchi demo. Read aloud and krautchy making activity. Experience a read aloud of New Picture Storybooks for Children and participate in a drawing workshop on comics with illustrators mini fan and Sophie Dialo on May 23rd at Excelsior Branch Library. Katie Kwan, who has been featured on Apex dives into the world of comics and zines through the lens of an Asian American artist and educator, and teaches the community how to make their own comics and zines at multiple locations throughout May. San Jose Public Libraries host a series of events with highlights being top of cloth making on May 6th and vegan Filipino cooking with Aztec Vegan on May 7th. Once again, happy Asian American and Pacific Islander Heritage Month from us at Apex Express. Please do checkout CAAM Fest. May 8th through 11th in San Francisco. If you get the chance and you’ll be able to see Kyle’s film. As well as many other incredible AAPI, histories and stories.
You can check out all of that community calendar info in our show notes, as well as information on all of the guests you heard from tonight.

Miko Lee: [00:51:55] Please check out our website, kpfa.org to find out more about our show tonight. We think all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. APEX Express is created by Miko Lee, Jalena Keane-Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar, Anuj Vaidya, Swati Rayasam, Aisa Villarosa, Estella Owoimaha-Church, Gabriel Tangloao, Cheryl Truong and Ayame Keane-Lee.

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APEX Express – April 24, 2025
24 apr· KPFA - APEX Express
A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.
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APEX Express – April 17, 2025 – When the Lotus Blooms
17 apr· KPFA - APEX Express
A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.
Important Links

[URGENT] ICE Is targeting Nepali-speaking Bhutanese Americans: Learn more
Asian Refugees United: Website | Instagram
Hamro Katha: When the Lotus Blooms: Instagram | Spotify | Youtube
Minjoona Music instagram | spotify

Transcript:
Cheryl Truong: Hey everyone. You’re tuned into APEX Express at 94.1 KPFA, 89.3 KPFB Berkeley, 88.1 KFCF Fresno, and online at kpfa.org. This is your host, Cheryl, here.
Before we dive into today’s episode, I want to start with some important context.
This conversation was recorded a few months ago before the recent and deeply distressing wave of ice [00:01:00] enforcement targeting the Nepali speaking Bhutanese community.
Since March 26, over 20 Nepali Bhutanese refugees have been deported. Many without legal representation and some moved between detention centers so quickly that they couldn’t even contact their family or attorneys. The fear, disruption and trauma that is being inflicted is real and ongoing and raises serious concerns about due process.
This is part of a larger ICE operation that is already detained over 60 Bhutanese Americans.
This is a rapidly unfolding crisis, and the numbers continue to shift as more people are detained and more impacted families come forward to share their stories. Asian Refugees united is calling for justice, demanding an end to these deportations and immediate protections for their communities.
For the latest data and development, or to learn more and take action, please visit Asian Refugees United’s website. It will be linked in our show notes.
Now onto today’s show.
I had the joy and privilege of sitting down with the youth podcast team behind Hamro Katha: When the Lotus Blooms, [00:02:00] a show created by young leaders from Asian refugees United. Asian Refugees united or ARU is a grassroots art and healing leadership center led by and for Asian refugees.
We’ll hear more about their powerful work later on in the show. One of their programs, the Camp for Emerging Leaders, brings together refugee youth to build community, explore their histories, and grow into their leadership. That’s where this podcast team first came together, and they’ll of course share more about that as well.
They’ve created something really special and I’m so excited for you all to hear from them. So let’s get started. Do you all mind just going around and introducing yourselves?
Nawal Rai: Yeah, for sure. Hello, everyone. I’m Nawal Rai. My pronouns are he, him, and I currently live in the East Coast in New Jersey. I’m currently a student studying environmental and urban studies. And right now I currently volunteer and do some work with Asian Refugees United here in the Harrisburg area, and I’m also from the Nepali speaking Bhutanese Refugee community.
Manju Gurung: Hi everyone, I am [00:03:00] Manju Gurung My pronouns are she and hers. I also live and work here in Harrisburg. I work full time as a home care manager but I also do some work with AARU, Asian Refugee United. So glad to be here.
Susmita Tamang: Hi everyone. My name is Susmita Tamang. I am a sophomore majoring in chemistry and I’m from Harrisburg. I interned over the summer at Asian Refugees United and that’s how I’m connected. I learned a lot of new skills and got to meet new people. Today we’re here mostly to talk about our podcast, Hamro Katha: When the Lotus Blooms, which is under Asian Refugees United.
Sarada Tamang: Hi, everyone. My name is Sarada Tamang. My pronouns are she and her. I currently live in Charlottesville, Virginia, and I’m a student taking classes to enter the Diagnostic Medical Sonography program.
And first met my podcast team members through Asian Refugee United’s Camp for [00:04:00] Emerging Leadership Program.
Cheryl Truong: Awesome. And our listeners out there, I’m sure you’re wondering, what is Asian Refugees United?
Nawal, do you want to give us a little introduction on what ARU is about? .
Nawal Rai: Yeah, of course. Again, Cheryl, thank you for having us tonight. Asian Refugees United was born in 2016 in the Bay Area. There was a big influx of Nepali speaking Bhutanese refugees after the third resettlement started for our community.
We had a bunch of community members that resided in Bay Area. And when you look at Bay Area, Bay Area is very diverse. And when you look at the history of Bay Area, there’s a lot of social movement and activism that has happened throughout the history.
And that kind of gave birth to this organization to unite refugees from different parts of Asia. We as Asian Refugees United here in Harrisburg currently work specifically with Nepali speaking Bhutanese community here since a lot of our population has now moved here. Asian Refugee United started with the focus on connecting our stories with the land that we now [00:05:00] live on and also acknowledging the stolen land that we stand on and also focusing on healing our communities and highlighting the stories of many refugees communities that are often overlooked by the medias and different political agenda. It was a way to find solidarity across communities and also how do we heal. And with that, we use art as a tool to heal and through storytelling where we come together to write stories and perform that stories in front of audience and community members.
So we do various different work through Asian Refugees United. Our podcast hamro Katha When the Lotus Bloom is also under Asian Refugees United. So you can tell, there’s different things that happens with our org.
Cheryl Truong: Thank you so much for sharing all of that. It’s so clear how much storytelling and healing are at the heart of ARU work. And one of the ways that it really shows I think that really shows up is through one of ARU’s community building projects.
Camp for emerging leaders, which brings together refugee youth from all [00:06:00] over and it’s actually where this amazing podcast team first met. Can you all share what that space was like for you? What do you remember feeling or learning during that time?
Susmita Tamang: I can go ahead. By the way, I think the first time we all met each other was way before CAMP for Emerging Leaders, but that’s when our idea grew. But Camp for Emerging Leaders is a program that Asian Refugees United organized.
It was for the Bhutanese Nepali speaking youth in Harrisburg area, but then it also branched to basically across the states, whoever was available because we met virtually, on Zoom every week or so, and we talked about what it means to have our identity as Bhutanese Nepali, our journey from Nepal to America, we talked about our experiences, acceptance, and then ways of connecting to each other.
Anything else that you guys want to mention?
Nawal Rai: Yeah. And with the leadership camp, we also focus on different factors that is focused on our, community health and wellness [00:07:00] and also, identity, belonging and um, education.
Manju Gurung: Yeah. We had three groups within camp called wellness, education, and identity and belonging, and then. Under identity and belonging there was also storytelling who did more of art and performance, but we divided into those three groups and we created activities to share with each other when we met in person in August.
That was Camp for Emerging Leaders. We got to learn new skills, such as working with each other, being compassionate towards each other, open minded. Yeah,, it was great.
Cheryl Truong: Oh, whoa. I didn’t know that camp was mostly virtual apart from that last in-person session, but that makes a lot of sense now, how Sarada could join from Virginia. Nawal from New Jersey. That’s so cool. It really shows just how spread out the Nepali Bhutanese refugee community is and how something like camp can bring folks together across distance, and it makes me think about what that means to feel connected. Do you feel like camp was the first [00:08:00] space where you got to meet other people from your community in that kind of way?
Or have you felt that sense of community where you’re from, even before camp?
Sarada Tamang: When I first moved to America, within a few years, in the city that I live in right now, we had a bigger population of Bhutanese Nepali people compared to now. Back then we did have a strong community to the point where we would host Losar programs which, can someone explain what that is?
Susmita Tamang: Oh yeah, Losar means New Year in Nepali but also in our ethnic language. So in Tamang as well as Gurung and maybe other languages in Nepal. It’s somewhat like the Chinese Lunar New Year because it’s connected to the, lunar calendar. I’m actually also from Charlottesville. We used to live in the same neighborhood, Sarada and me. And back then, we did have a large community, but then people started moving to Ohio, Harrisburg, and then those areas became more of the [00:09:00] hub for Bhutanese Nepali people.
And so, now, I do have some family there, Sarada lives there, some of my cousins live there, but compared to 2011, it’s very, very low in terms of population, so they don’t really have large events compared to Harrisburg.
Cheryl Truong: What was that like for all of you growing up in such conservative states as refugees? I,
Manju Gurung: Yeah, I can share one. So I moved to Concord, New Hampshire back in 2012 from Nepal. And, even back then when we were talking about communities, we did have a lot of Bhutanese refugees living there by the time that my family moved and settled there.
Unfortunately, one of the incidents that happened to my family was some sort of like… Hate crime? It’s like,
Nawal Rai: definitely racial, racial racial hatred.
Sarada Tamang: We just received this in a very hateful letter saying, go back to your country. You don’t belong here. All of that. We don’t really know exactly what we did to make that [00:10:00] person very upset about us being there. So that was one thing that I had to deal with as a young teenage girl who had just moved into a new city, new country with my family and who barely spoke English back then as well. So that was a very difficult experience to go through. But, with that incident, what came was our community showed up, not just the Bhutanese community back then, but other communities that were from different part of the world, basically, you know. They really showed up and let us know that we were in the right place. We’re welcome. And there’s no space for hate for anybody. That was really nice. After joining ARU and storytelling group, I was actually able to share that story through performance alongside Nawal, which definitely helped me heal some of those traumas that I had to experience back then.
So, yeah, very grateful.
Susmita Tamang: Their performance was amazing. They did it in person during the ARU camp In person [00:11:00] summit. We also had people from our community, like uncles and community leaders there and they were all moved by her performance. Surada and I, we were crying.
It was so good. So I’m really glad that one day you were able to share your story. As well as everyone else who performed.
Manju Gurung: No, we had cried a lot. I think Nawal knows how many times I cried when we were practicing and rehearsing before. Because we started a couple months before we were meeting up in August for the Emerging Leaders camp session.
I remember being in this room and just sharing my stories and not being able to share all of it because I was just crying and I had to let that emotion out. So I think that really helped me get over that traumatic past. I think that I was holding it on for so long.
So that’s something. I was very grateful for the storytelling group that, you know, that ARU has created.
Nawal Rai: Yeah, the talking circle is part of the process of our storytelling and identity and belonging, so we try to focus on sharing each other’s [00:12:00] story and trying to create that space to be vulnerable. And I think that’s the work that we’re also trying to do with our podcast that is kind of extending toward our community and not just us youth and highlighting a lot of personal stories and our community stories.
Cheryl Truong: Thank you for sharing that. I love what you said that in telling our stories, especially when it carries themes of pain, it doesn’t just help the audience understand and relate, but it also helps you process and heal too.
We are going to take a quick music break, don’t go anywhere
Cheryl Truong: More on the power of storytelling when we return.
Next up, you’re listening to a track called “Juniper” by Minjoona, a project led by Korean American musician, Jackson Wright. This track features Ari Statler on bass, josh Qiyan on drums, and Ryan Fu producing. Juniper is the lead single from Minjoona’s newest release, the Juniper EP, a five track p roject rooted in indie rock, 60 throwback vibes, and lyric forward storytelling. You can follow Minjoona on Instagram [00:13:00] at @minjoonamusic or find them on Spotify to keep up with upcoming releases. We’ll drop the links in our show notes. Enjoy the track and we’ll be right back. [00:14:00] [00:15:00] [00:16:00] [00:17:00] [00:18:00]
Welcome back. You’re tuning in to Apex Express at 94.1 KPFA 89.3 KPFB, 88.1 KFCF Fresno, and [email protected]. Before the break, we were talking about the power of personal storytelling and how sharing our own experiences, especially around identity, can be both healing and powerful.
Now I want to dig into how that turned into Hamro Katha: when the Lotus Blooms, what inspired you all to start a podcast?
Susmita Tamang: So within our Identity and Belonging group, we divided again to different groups.
One was podcast, one was an identity wheel activity we had to do in front of everyone in the summit. So that was when the idea initiated, but then, after we were done with our summit we talked again [00:19:00] altogether. Sarada brought up the idea of podcast because her inspiration drew from the Moth podcast.
Sarada Tamang: Yeah. Thank you for filling it in. I was in the subdivision of the podcast from Identity and Belonging, and I thought, we should do something. And I was really moved by the Moth podcast, which I was first introduced to in freshman year of high school. I thought maybe this would be a great way for each person in our community to share their individual stories and experiences so that, you know, it’s out there for people to hear and in a way it’s preserved because of lack of media coverage in our history,
Susmita Tamang: I agree. Bhutanese Nepali people, not a lot of people even know who we are. And usually when people are like, Oh, where are you from? We say Nepal, but we never explain or go into depth. We’re actually not really from Nepal, but at the same time we are. Our parents were born in Bhutan, but then they fled, and therefore, blah, blah, blah. There’s not a lot of coverage, so that was definitely one of the main ideas that all of us agreed on. [00:20:00] We want to speak about our issues, about our history, our story, so that people know that we do exist, and acknowledge, us.
Cheryl Truong: That’s such a great point on the lack of representation and coverage. Sarada, I would love to know more about the Moth and what that is for our listeners out there who don’t know what the Moth is.
The moth is where they have stories from thousands of people and it’s recorded live. You can hear the audience’s reaction to the storyteller as they talk about their journey or talk about a core memory. The stories, they don’t have to be serious all the time. Sometimes they’re just a funny moment from your life or a little snippet of a journey from your life. I, wanted to incorporate that into our podcast. And one of our team members suggested that maybe we should also have a conversational type of podcast that we all listen to nowadays where we cover important topics in our community that are often overlooked. I hope that, from talking about these issues [00:21:00] as a community, we can grow and connect with each other.
Thank you so much for sharing that. I also wanna take a moment to talk about the history that shaped so many of these stories. For folks who may not know, can you, can one of you share a little bit about the history of the Nepali Bhutanese refugee community?
Nawal Rai: Yeah. We were forced to leave our country, basically stripping our citizenship overnight by the Bhutanese government, and obviously it was not overnight, but it was a progress through putting in policies like one people, one nation act which kind enforced one language, one religion, one cultural costume, one way of practicing and worshipping. That became an issue. A lot of Nepali speaking community, a majority who are Hindu, started to resist toward that policies. Then the people were started to labeled as terrorists and anti nationalist. And so a lot of those caused for us to leave. Some families were given notice to leave by certain dates. And if you’re not, then you’re either going to be evicted or your house are burned [00:22:00] down or you’re forced through violence. Some folks left because of scared of this violence from the government, but also some people after seeing those violence that was perpetuated against the people that resisted. Right. So that kind of became mass migration toward Nepal and that’s where we ended up. Some people stayed in India, got stuck in India and in between borders with Bhutan and India and then more than 100, 000 people then resettled in the Seven Refugees Camp in Eastern Nepal.
Cheryl Truong: Yeah. This is a really dark and painful history one that often doesn’t get told and, and it really pushes back against that popular narrative of Bhutan being the quote unquote happiest country in the world. You all have touched on how important storytelling is not just for healing, but also for connecting with others and building understanding.
So I’m curious when you’re all recording, when the Lotus blooms. Who do you imagine listening? Who is the audience you have in mind when you share these stories?
Manju Gurung: I think it is for everybody from our [00:23:00] community or the elders who have not been able to share their stories and struggles that they had to go through. And for our parents people our age and younger than us, the next generation. Anybody who wants to share their stories. It doesn’t have to be only about their struggles, if they have something funny or happy stories or anything that they want to write and share, we have created the space for them to use and amplify their voices so we can inspire more people or at least their stories can kind of let others know that, Oh, there are people who have gone through similar stuff like I have, or they have, so yes, it’s. I would say it’s for everybody.
Susmita Tamang: Yeah, I would say our primary audience is definitely our own community.
But also outside of our community, people who support us or don’t know about us so that again, our main message that our stories are heard and we are acknowledged. Our identity is Shown and talked about. I think that’s also [00:24:00] definitely our target.
Cheryl Truong: And your podcast name is Hamro Kata, When the Lotus Blooms.
I totally butchered that. Now, could you tell me the symbolism? What, where does this name come from?
Susmita Tamang: We actually made a post on Instagram about our name– when the lotus blooms is our username. We couldn’t fit the whole entire podcast name because it was too long. So, yeah, please follow us. Hamro Katha, by the way, means our story in Nepali. That’s the direct translation. Our name signifies the perseverance of the Bhutanese Nepali refugees. The lotus. I think many know, it’s a symbol of how a lotus prospers from muddy waters. Despite our adverse origins, we continue to flourish by learning and sharing our experiences, trying to inspire others along the way.
Cheryl Truong: What are the kind of stories that you’re able [00:25:00] to hear from your elders? Are they open to sharing?
Nawal Rai: Yeah, that’s a really good question. And are they open to sharing? I think our community is pretty open to sharing those stories. And I think that also comes from not having anyone to listen for them before, right? At least my grandparents are always like ask me questions. I grew up listening to a lot of the stories from Bhutan and of growing up in Bhutan and the impact of migration. So I have had a lot of those conversations with my grandparents, so they always, at least my grandpa, he can be really buggy with our family because some of our family members doesn’t ask him questions like that. Not everyone is interested in the political and the social world like I am in the family. So he’s always upset that our uncles or our family members is not asking him enough questions.
So from my understanding, there’s that part of them that wants to share their stories, because of their struggles that has never been really spoken on and I feel they have never been able to share those stories with anyone. I see that in my family coming out in the structural where he started to be upset with us you know, you guys are [00:26:00] not even trying to learn anything about our stories and blah, blah, blah.
And I was like, I got you, grandpa.
Susmita Tamang: Without even asking my dad usually when there’s a family gathering of any sort, they’re always talking about how their life was back in Bhutan. So from their anecdotes and narratives, I’m always able to listen to what happened. I think usually most of the people I’ve asked about how their life was in Bhutan, or if they have anything they’d like to share, they’re always open to sharing and talking more about it.
Sarada Tamang: I was a big yapper growing up when I was small, especially. So I would be like, grandma, where are you from? Oh, what is, what was that? What was this? And so, I would hear a lot of stories from her and I would also hear a lot of stories about Bhutan and even life in camp from my mom and my relatives when they’re reminiscing about old times. I heard the quote when your grandparents pass away, it’s like a whole library crashes down or something along the lines of [00:27:00] that. Ever since I heard that I was like, oh my goodness I need to know everything that my grandma has been through. Every time we talk on the phone i’m always asking her about Her life and her journey.
Cheryl Truong: Wow. This is actually so different from my experience growing up. Like I remember growing up super ashamed. I would tell my parents don’t speak Vietnamese. I don’t want everyone to hear it I wanted to fit in.
Susmita Tamang: I did experience what you just talked about, trying to assimilate with the American society because early on when we first immigrated here, being in this space where everyone is Very different from you and more of like you’re the one who’s different from everyone else.
You just wanted to hide or how do you say fall into their group so that you’re not singled out as a refugee. I did have that crisis where I was ashamed of myself It was only till high school [00:28:00] When I accepted, I am Bhutanese Nepali, I am a refugee, and I’m proud of that, and that’s actually when I started asking questions.
So, I wasn’t always very curious, but then later on learned more about myself, and that’s when things actually started going. Was it like that for you guys?
Nawal Rai: Yeah, Cheryl, I was gonna say, you are definitely not alone. I think we’ve all been through that phase of running away from our community and everything, and we’re trying to reach for that whiteness and the validation of white people.
And I think even in the structural way. In college, as a freshman, and after Covid and after George Floyd, that’s when those were the moments that really looking into politics and like also looking at the systematic racism and how it has embedded in us in our consciousness and the way that we go on about life. Those moments and those phase of life has definitely made me start the process of decolonization and really explore who am I? And those [00:29:00] curiosities became strong. I found ARU at a perfect moment in life and I’m still exploring and I’m still learning.
ARU gave me the space and that people and that community. I’d never seen an organization like ARU in our community that really focuses on healing and talking about social and political issues that is impacting people, and not just about about it, but also how do we take action and getting our communities involved in those conversations. Obviously, we’re not where we want to be and I think it’s a constant everyday process and work that we’re constantly trying to do and trying to build and give something back to the movement and to our people.
Cheryl Truong: Yes. Healing is such a powerful part of this work and of course everyone in this room knows that healing and storytelling is really political too, especially as racialized people. So I wanna ask, what radicalized you?
Was there a moment in experience or a story that made you start to see the world differently or made you wanna speak out and organize?
Sarada Tamang: [00:30:00] For me, it was seeing other Bhutanese Nepali youth on social media embracing our culture. And I realized, wow, the clothes that we wear, the language that we speak, it’s actually really beautiful. And That’s when I started digging more into my culture and trying to understand why I was the way I was growing up. And so, yeah, I think seeing my community, but in different states through social media was definitely a way that moved me, pushed me to accept my culture.
After I was able to get over my insecurities or the desire to fit into certain categories in high school, I was like, Well, I had always been dancing ever since I was small and I enjoyed it even more as I grew up and I would perform if I could at school during our talent [00:31:00] show or diversity program and a lot of people complimented me and they were like, wow, you dance so well.
Sarada Tamang: And when people are like, how many languages do you speak? And I say two, they’re like, what? I can only speak English. And then after that, I was like, you know what? Yeah, I should embrace this because I love everything about our culture, especially the dance part of it.
Cheryl Truong: And how did you get into dancing? Was that something you did with your family?
Sarada Tamang: Growing up, I would see my sister practicing with her friends. And that heavily influenced me because I was like, wow, they were so good at dancing. I want to be just like my sister. And so, I continued practicing and improved.
Susmita Tamang: I actually have a story about that.
When we were very young, like when we were around eight years old. I’m pretty sure It was our first performance together, but we did dance in front of, what was it?
Wasn’t it, Kerelama Arubakotoma? Monks Arubakotoma?
Sarada Tamang: Oh yeah, it was [00:32:00] at a Buddhist temple.
Susmita Tamang: Yeah, and we got five dollars as our, I don’t know why we got five dollars, but there was an envelope and I opened it and it was money. I was like, oh my god, maybe I could do this for life, you know? But no, no, no. And we actually performed another time too, it was during Losar, a New Year’s event. This was in middle school. That was really fun. And I think that was the last time where our community actually got together. Because afterwards, Charlottesville, it became dry. But I have a lot of good memories of dancing with Sarada.
Cheryl Truong: Wow, five dollars. When you’re young, five dollars is a lot. Do y’all do the red envelopes, too?
Susmita Tamang: We don’t do red envelopes, but we do get money during our holidays, Dashain and Tihar.
From our last October and November GoHolidays, Dashain and Tihar.
DR, I made around 800 and I saved that up and I paid my tuition with it.
So I’m always happy when it’s around, you know, holiday season. [00:33:00]
Nawal Rai: Also, in our system, the man doesn’t get the money.
Yeah, our family often just gives money to a woman in our family Because they often see our women often gets married and lives with husbands, right? And I think there’s that respect of showing more appreciation towards that, at least that’s what I heard going on, and I was
like, that’s kind of cool.
I
Susmita Tamang: In my family, they do get money, but obviously lesser than the girls, but for Tihar is when the guys, if they have siblings or cousins, they get gifts, and in return, the girls get money.
Manju Gurung: But
then about that too, guys, I think for in Hindu religion, there is a one goddess who kind of represents wealth and money and all of that.
So people who celebrate, our practice Hinduism at least at my household, we practice both Buddhism and Hindu, like holidays and all of those. So, since there is a goddess who people actually pray for wealth and all of that, I think one of the reasons why a [00:34:00] lot of times women in households get a little bit of extra attention and money as a blessing, so.
Susmita Tamang: Yeah, it’s a bonus point, I guess.
The gender dynamic, I feel in Bhutanese Nepali community is like in most South Asian immigrants community, where the male kind of dominates the household and The females are the ones who are supposed to stay home, do the majority of the housework, look after the kids. So it’s very traditional roles, but having come to America, I think those ideas of it being super dichotomous has been lowered because we know what it is.
Susmita Tamang: Individualism is.. People are able to kind of work towards that, whether you’re a male or a female or any other genders. So I think being in an American society has definitely influenced now our idea of those dynamics. It’s much more [00:35:00] free. But there are definitely, communities within our community that still hold on to the older ideals.
Yeah.
Nawal Rai: Yeah, like I would say in terms of a lot of gender roles, I will say like our communities pretty progressive and again, I also don’t want to under undermine a lot of the violence that happens against women in our community, right?
There’s still that imbalance in power in different households, right? But I think when I do, look at our community as a whole, I will say like majority of it’s like a more progressive learning, I would say in terms of a lot of issues as well. And if we’re looking at men and women, I will say our women in our community are a little bit more progressive than men, I would say.
And I think that also plays a big dynamic in our community and how women plays a role in society, even at my household, was very much of a on and off of the power dynamic with my mom and dad. I feel like there was a lot of things I knew that my mom [00:36:00] was and like, even my from my grandparents to see what’s this, the oldest, daughter in law, she was, her opinion was always needed there and without her presence or without her saying, no family decision could be made.
And that was respected by our grandparents and that was implemented in this. But there, I know there are also my friend’s family, right, where there is that dynamic of really, uh, oppressive kind of dynamic.
Manju Gurung: I think within my family to what I’ve seen growing up between my parents when it comes to gender roles and all that. I think we’ll just speaking from experience. I think I’ve had. This is not me like talking bad about my father or anything. He’s a great father and husband and brother son all all, He’s an amazing man.
But I’ve had in past two, three years I’ve had conversations with him where he would say Oh, women should learn to cook. He would heavily focus on those words, which didn’t really Sit right with me as I grew older and learned from [00:37:00] experience and around the world. And the thing is, his message was not really entirely wrong. Not just to make women be all prepared for their marriage and stuff, but he was just saying in a way as a concerned father would be like, in case if you , get married off and then go to your in laws homes, we don’t want to hear your in laws making you feel bad about not knowing how to cook, clean, all of that, you know.
I always argued with him by saying I don’t need to be perfect before I get married or, because I think it’s a life skill that a man and women should know. The way that My parents have raised me. I would question them and be like, well, have you taught your son how to cook and clean. It’s not only my responsibility to cook and clean and provide. I think after that conversation that I’ve had with him over and over again, he does kind of pause before he speaks to me about those things because he knows since I’m the oldest one from my home. He knows that, it’s going to backfire on him. And so it’s a lovely conversation to have with parents and I think even with grandparents too, about gender roles and [00:38:00] dynamics and what we are expecting of women specifically in our communities.
Susmita Tamang: By the way, what I love about what Manjutimi just said is that I feel like our generation is the one who’s kind of asking them so that they’re aware of what they’re actually saying.
And a lot of our parents are like that. But then I also realize. It’s because their parents were like that and then their parents, grandparents were like that. So it’s a lot of these things are passed down and I feel like we’re here to break that and say, hey, stop, pause. That’s not it. And then actually explain why it shouldn’t be like that.
Nawal Rai: Yeah, and I want to add a little bit because a lot of our listeners are going to be people who grew up in America, most likely, right? And I think I want to, and why I said that, our community is a little progressive is because I compared our community to a general conservative man of the West.
And I feel like a lot [00:39:00] of those views about women and what you just mentioned about like your dad About your dad saying that right? It’s not coming from like a woman should do this It is something that culturally passed down to that that’s what they’re used to and what’s Susmita said you know, I think we are the ones To break that.
And I feel like when break into those conversation, I feel like a lot of the elders often are pretty open to at least listening in my instances and I know it’s not the same for everyone. Again, like the talk, speaking from my experience and with a lot of elders, I have been able to break that crack doing those conversation and I feel like they have been open to welcoming those different views and listening and I’ve been able to do that in my family, quite a bit. So I think that’s something that, yeah, we can do.
Cheryl Truong: Yeah, that’s so real. Challenging those cultural norms, especially when they’ve been passed down for generations, isn’t easy. It takes a lot of care and courage, and you’re all doing that through your stories, and I think that really shows in your first episode! So for all of our listeners out there, the first episode of [00:40:00] Ro Kata, when the Lotus Blooms is available using the links in the show notes. How was your experience recording your first episode?
Susmita Tamang: It was so nerve wracking at first because we wanted to keep it conversational, like we’re just talking with our friends, but at the same time people are going to be watching this, so it’s like, do we talk to the audience? How do we still retain our natural tone? It was a lot of just talking to ourselves, hey, it’s gonna be okay. We can edit this out later, you know? But it was such a fun experience because everybody was on it. They had the same emotions as I did. But as we were talking about each topic, it kind of just naturally flowed.
We had so much to say. Seems like all of us are big yappers so it was nice. What about you guys?
Manju Gurung: Yeah, well, definitely, we had to restart so many times just because everybody was so nervous. When we knew that it was recording, I think it really made all of us a little bit nervous, yeah.
Sarada Tamang: [00:41:00] definitely a learning experience. This was a trial and error kind of, but I think overall we did great. I think as the more we do this, the more comfortable we’ll get. During this process, we’re doing our best to improve as we go and we’ve also been receiving a lot of feedback and we will definitely incorporate them on our following episodes. I
Nawal Rai: yeah, I wasn’t on the podcast, but I did the editing. I think it was, it was a really good experience and I watched them while I was editing. I think overall for the first time, no one has ever done a podcast in our group, this was all like new, something new for all of us. And Yeah, putting that in mind, I think it was a very successful. I would say it was a successful first episode and, even for the edit, while I was editing too, there was a lot of things that I was learning as I was editing and there was a lot of things That are also group were incorporating that we were helping each other to produce that. So I wasn’t the only editing. My groups were sharing their ideas and how we can really make that product look the way that it came out, you know? It was a lot of teamwork and [00:42:00] learned to take criticism, then how do we implement that in practice?
I think especially being virtual, it’s difficult to do all the things. , it’s a process. So we’re trying to do a different recording in a different method next time and try, if that would make our screen much clearer or just play around with us.
It’s as we go, I think it’s going to be an experience.
Cheryl Truong: Thanks for sharing your reflections with me, everyone. I’m glad to hear that it was overall a good experience. Well, we are at time, but before we close, I want to ask you all one last question. If you could go back and tell your younger self something, something you know now, after being part of this podcast, this community, this journey, what would you tell yourself?
Susmita Tamang: I think for me, it would be, don’t try too hard to fit in, because my whole entire elementary to middle to early high school year, it was always trying to do these activities that like trying to get into musicals, and ballet, I did so many, I mean, these were actually really good opportunities, but [00:43:00] it was so that I looked like my peers, my interests and hobbies were the same as theirs, so that they took me in, kind of. They were fun though, I did get into musicals, it was fun, but that was definitely my time where I tried my hardest to be in that group. But I guess I would tell myself, don’t try too hard to fit in because you will find your people. Just be yourself and that will help you move on through life.
Manju Gurung: For me, I think I would tell my younger self to be brave. I’m still telling myself to be a little bit brave and be confident. And I think that’s a work in progress, but yeah Be a little brave and don’t be afraid to share your voice. And I think that’s something that I have struggled with, being confident in my own voice. And, thankfully enough at this age and day that I have ARU and this amazing team that we have. So that has allowed me to share my voice and not be scared.
Sarada Tamang: For me, advice I would give to [00:44:00] my younger self. Is that I would tell her to don’t be afraid to speak and initiate a conversation because I feel like because I did that. Now I’m more afraid to speak to people. And embrace your culture.
Nawal Rai: Yeah, for me, I would say.
You didn’t have to be a parent. I feel like, that’s a sound depressing. I feel like I’m saying that because I feel like I had a lot of little siblings. And a lot of the time. My parent didn’t force me to be, but being the oldest, I tried to put that habit of being an adult and being a parent figure. Now I’m 23 and living alone, trying to figure life out, and I’m like, I am still a child and I don’t know how to be an adult. I feel like I didn’t get time to be a child back then, because I was trying to be an adult so much, now I’m like, okay, I want to be a child now, so , I’m trying to figure out how do I also be a child and also [00:45:00] figure this world out, and I think that’s the phase I am in life right now, trying to figure that out.
Cheryl Truong: Well, I’m so excited to see more of y’all. Thank you all so much for coming on the show for our listeners out there. Can you remind me one more time, how can we listen and tune into your podcast and how can we stay updated on all things?
Susmita Tamang: So majority of the things we’re going to be posting is going to be on our Instagram, whenthelotusmoons, that is our username. And then we have a YouTube account, Spotify, as well as TikTok, where we’re going to be posting more of our materials. So if you guys go there, you can check us out.
Nawal Rai: I think the best way to stay connected would be following on Instagram. That’s where I feel like we’ll post a lot of the things that will be , updated, and I think a lot of the announcement will come there.
Cheryl Truong: Thank you all so much for sharing your stories, your honesty, and your hearts with us today. Once again, this is the incredible team behind Asian refugees United’s new podcast. It’s really clear that Hamro [00:46:00] Katha isn’t just a podcast. It is a space for healing, for truth telling, and for imagining something better. To our listeners. If you wanna learn more about Asian Refugees United and the work that these incredible youth leaders are doing, please check out Asian Refugees United’s website.
It’s currently linked in the show notes. And as always, thank you for tuning in to Apex Express. We’ll catch you next time.
Cheryl Truong (she/they): Apex express is produced by Miko Lee, Paige Chung, Jalena Keane-Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar. [00:47:00] Shekar, Anuj Vaidya, Kiki Rivera, Swati Rayasam, Nate Tan, Hien Nguyen, Nikki Chan, and Cheryl Truong
Cheryl Truong: Tonight’s show was produced by me, cheryl. Thanks to the team at KPFA for all of their support. And thank you for listening! [00:48:00] [00:49:00] [00:50:00] [00:51:00] [00:52:00] [00:53:00] [00:54:00] [00:55:00] [00:56:00] [00:57:00] [00:58:00]
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APEX Express – April 10, 2025
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A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.
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APEX Express – 4. 3.25 – Coming Up Next
3 apr· KPFA - APEX Express
A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.
Tonight on APEX Express join host Miko Lee as she talks with Asian American theatre artists with works coming up soon. Miko talks with Sunhui Chang and Joan Osato about their world premiere at the Magic Theatre. She speaks with Ethnotech’s Nancy Wang and Robert Kikuchi-Yngojo and finally we hear from playwright Jiehae Park on the world premiere of the Aves at Berkeley Rep. Though we may be immersed in a complicated, challenging and very disturbing world, as Grace Lee Boggs said, “A people exercising their creativity in the face of devastation is one of the greatest contributions to humankind.”

Our Guests discussed:
April 2-20, 2025 Magic Theatre The Boiling, a tale of american nihilism tickets, wheelchair accessible
Joan Osato
SFFILM Cedar Road Iyagi Grant Applications: sffilm.org/artist-development
Ethnohtec
May 22 Ethnohtec
https://sfpl.org/events/2025/05/22/panel-strong-bamboo-3-part-1
Strong Like Bamboo
SF Library Koret Auditorium Free
https://sfpl.org/events/2025/05/25/performance-strong-bamboo-3-part-2

Coming Up Next Transcript

Opening: [00:00:00] Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express.

Ayame Keane-Lee: [00:00:34] Tonight on APEX Express join host Miko Lee as she talks with Asian American theatre artists with works coming up soon. Miko talks with Sunhui Chang and Joan Osato about their world premiere of the boiling at the Magic Theatre. She speaks with Eth-Noh-Tec’s Nancy Wang and Robert Kikuchi-Yngojo and finally we hear from playwright Jiehae Park on the world premiere of the aves at Berkeley Rep. Though we may be immersed in a complicated, challenging and very disturbing world, as Grace Lee Boggs said, “A people exercising their creativity in the face of devastation is one of the greatest contributions to humankind.” So join us on APEX Express as we join some creative conversations.

Miko Lee: [00:01:17] Tonight on Apex Express, we have the collaborators behind Magic Theater and Campo Santo’s, world Premier of the boiling: a tale of American nihilism. Welcome playwright Sunhui Chang and video artist Joan Osato.

Joan Osato: [00:01:30] Thank you for having us on, Miko.

Miko Lee: [00:01:33] Yes. First I’m gonna start for each of you with a personal question, which is an adaptation from the amazing Chinaka Hodges. And my question for each of you, and let’s start with Joan first, is who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?

Joan Osato: [00:01:49] I consider myself a child of immigrants in this country. My lineage Japanese, Japanese American by way of Hawai’i a lot of my lineage is carried by that diaspora, but also by my history at Youth Speaks for a couple of decades. And so I consider that my family also and Camp Santo.

Miko Lee: [00:02:12] Yay. Love that. And then Joan, what legacy do you carry with you?

Joan Osato: [00:02:17] A legacy of resilience and I know how to farm. I like to think of myself as a gardener and a great farmer. so that’s the legacy I carry with me.

Miko Lee: [00:02:29] Thank you so much, Joan. Sunhui, what about you? Who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?

Sunhui Chang: [00:02:36] Well, I’m part of the diaspora, the Korean American diaspora that happened in the seventies. My family immigrated to the island of Guam in 1976, as part of developing the island of Guam. As, you know, the Korean diaspora at that time in the seventies, we were kind of shipped around the world a little bit, for our labor. There’s a huge Korean population of workers that also went to West Germany and other places, Guam is not as well known, but it was definitely part of that. So in 76, our family landed on the island of Guam.

Miko Lee: [00:03:11] Wow, that’s so interesting. And then what about what legacy you carry with you?

Sunhui Chang: [00:03:16] I think my legacy I have to say is that definitely of the immigrant working class, you know, as with a Korean diaspora, there’s some things of, like the East Coast Koreans, as you may know, have a different history of being much more educated whereas kind of the west coast and the Korean diaspora during the seventies towards islands like Guam, we were much more working class. So that is my legacy. I have working class roots that, I never seem to be able to get away from and I don’t want to.

Joan Osato: [00:03:47] Shoot. That’s the same for me too, my working class roots.

Miko Lee: [00:03:51] So it sounds like you two have some commonalities there and that seem to have flowed over into the creation of this play. Sunhui can you talk about an overview of this brand New World premier, the boiling.

Sunhui Chang: [00:04:05] Simply put, it’s a story of a tracker and a tracer, a government team that was formed to track and trace down carriers of the virus called the Boiling. and it actually. starts out as a chase, but what we really dig into is more about, identity, home, what it means to be, what is home and what it means to be, at home, and also, about redemption, you know, through our lives, you know? So it’s multi-layered, so it’s hard to kind of explain in a log line. but it’s a chase story that kind of delves into the characters.

Miko Lee: [00:04:40] And I understand this was inspired by a real news story. Can you tell us about that real news story?

Sunhui Chang: [00:04:46] Oh, yeah. the genesis of this we have to kind of go back to the beginning of the pandemic back to December, 2019. I had just finished a gallery installation in San Francisco and then at the end of that I flew back to Seattle. Now at that period of time, there was this talk that there’s this virus that’s in China. That might affect us, we’re not quite certain, but it could be something that could lead to a global pandemic, but we didn’t quite know at that time. But then when I landed in Seattle, March 17th, 2020 was the date that Governor j Insley shut down the state of Washington. So that is a big take ’cause, As you know, we all hunkered down at that point. And then in one of the hunkering down is of course, I was watching the news and one of the news story, happened to come across where they were talking about a Econo Lodge motel that the state of Washington had purchased to turn into a quarantine motel, a voluntary quarantine motel where people who, felt that they were infected could check themselves in, to be evaluated. So the story goes that two people had actually checked into this motel totally voluntarily, but one of them the morning after. And this is captured, with a surveillance video. We actually see this one person walking out of their room at the motel. We see them walk across the street to a gas station with a market. Now the surveillance actually then switches over to the gas station surveillance, which shows him walking to the gas mart, walking inside, making a purchase, and then actually walking out. And then we see another footage of the surveillance that’s going from the outside surveillance of the store. We actually see him, walk towards the bus stop, get on a bus. And then just the bus leaves and that is it. And the news story ends with that. They had no idea where this person drifted off to. and for me it just, it had this weird, eerie fascination that just grabbed me. and remember at that time, Seattle was such a hotbed for Covid. It was where the nursing home happened, where so many of the elderly had passed on, and we didn’t even wanna secondhand touch a surface, so there was a real heightened sense of alarm that was happening. So seeing this story of this potential infected person just drifting off. And then what made it eerie was that I wanted to see what followed up. So for days after I kept watching the news, what is the follow up? What happened? It was never brought on again. Never. Another mention I. and for me that actually made it even more eerie. So it really sat with me, to the point where I had to actually just write down the first words of my, the first line of my story, the boiling. And the first line was, “Carrier X stepped out of the tightness of his room and breathed deeply the soft drizzle of the Pacific Northwest to cool his body from the growing fever.” So those were the first words that I wrote. and then it was just kind of off to the races ’cause the way I write Miko is that I’m very much organic. I kind of set a story and then I become a vessel of the story. I don’t come to the story with agendas or anything of that nature. After the first sentence, it just kind of took a life of its own. So that’s it.

Miko Lee: [00:08:18] That is amazing. I did not hear that story. and the real news story. That is wild. That would’ve sat with me too. Joan, had you heard of that story before being brought onto this project?

Joan Osato: [00:08:29] Well, when we did a reading during the pandemic. I did hear parts of that story, but I think it’s also a story that a lot of us can relate to, because like here in the Bay Area, of course, we also experienced severe lockdown. Whereas in other parts of the country, I think that the type of lockdown, although being, you know, trying to be really safe for people also induces this sense of isolation and paranoia. And so wanting to get information about who’s getting affected and like, where’s it happening? I think that was all like kind of a mini obsession of like. Everyone who experienced the pandemic, you know what I mean?

Miko Lee: [00:09:10] How do you think that pandemic has had an impact on theater and on audiences?

Joan Osato: [00:09:16] Well on the most basic levels, you know, like what theaters are grappling with, just in terms of coming out of and recovering from pandemic, I think everybody understands that, you know, theater in general is struggling because of the changes that happened in terms of, Perhaps what people place importance on the isolation that we went through, the kind of, paranoia about being in groups of people and in space and in community together. And so, that affects, you know, theaters and you can, you can see that since the pandemic some have closed. But I also think that, the effects are also that, groups like The Magic or Campo Santo during the Pandemic, we never stopped working and we just figured out innovative ways to, you know, support artists, do radio plays, do, amalgamations of like filming. And so a lot of us became like very, very adept at different types of media that are theatrically based, like Sunhui’s play, but that we had to carry out, like online or, you know, through other types of media.

Sunhui Chang: [00:10:30] I just wanted to add on that is that, the pandemic, you know, there there was definitely things that really affected us as humans in such a negative way, but what I also found admiring was, with Joan and Camp Santo and the artists and trying to find creative ways of, still letting, having an outlet. it really was that the story of the boiling would not have taken place if artists such as Joan and Camp Santo. If they didn’t, if they weren’t able to pivot and make these kind of online transitions at the moment, such as doing readings and such, cause that’s how the story was first brought about. So, in many ways it was hard. But also I do appreciate these artists who have been able to kind of keep going and didn’t shut down and kept letting the creative creativity somehow flow. I so appreciated that.

Joan Osato: [00:11:20] Yeah, it was definitely a beautiful thing. And then, you know, Miko, throughout the pandemic, you know, we would have like online viewings of our archives or we would sit with audience members, who were joining us and basically hang out for like three, four hours online.
So trying to create the space not only to kind of generate support for artists who are. Completely outta work, but also to, just connect us even though we were. You know, obviously under these conditions where we couldn’t see each other in person and it wouldn’t have been advisable for us to even try to gather, you know, because, I consider us, you know, in-inside of our community extremely vulnerable. So, you know, just grappling with that tension, was really hard.

Miko Lee: [00:12:09] Yeah. And I kind of hear both of you saying that in those really tough times, there was this push to get more creative, to find more ways of reaching people and, and to look at ways that we can, um, innovate given that, and I’m wondering, given our current political climate where things are changing every hour now. I mean, the first Trump administration, it was kind of every week and now it feels like every hour a new kind of devastating thing is happening. I’m wondering how you both think theater can be used as a tool for social change.

Sunhui Chang: [00:12:41] For me Theater and, and really the arts, what I do love about it, is this really, and I kind of touch upon it with the story and such, and it really hit me during, COVID, during the pandemic, is that it’s really for me, what it does is listening. I know as artists, we love telling our story. We love telling what we see, our interpretations and things like that. but I think what I have really come about with the arts is the fact that I like the other side of it is the listening part, for me with my collaborators, that I have to listen. You know, it’s not about just me talking, but just listening. So for me, the theater aspect of it and the art aspect of it is that I hope that, as we go through these tough times, what it really has us doing is listening to each other more. One of the things that I really feel in that way and appreciative of listening is the fact that without listeners, there’s no storytelling. Listening is really the foundation of our humanity. You know, I mean, just talking really gets us nowhere. What really makes us move forward collectively is listening.

Joan Osato: [00:13:50] Mm, Sunhui heard that. Yes, I heard that. [laughs] As far as theater and kind of responding to the moment. I think, you know, the type of theater that we embody is always speaking to politics is always speaking to, you know, the culture of the moment and especially it’s speaking, because a lot of Campo and the Magic’s work is like based inside of, theater companies that live, work, breathe, are about by and for the communities, like in the Bay Area right. So there’s just no way of separating the kind of politics from what happens like inside of these plays. For the boiling in particular though, I think there’s a lot of stuff that, that people can think about and here inside the play that will resonate with them. One, we’re, we’re talking about a hypothetical, but it’s not really a hypothetical situation about a pandemic, a very, harmful, very urgent, current conditions. You know, when there’s no CDC to have, get your information from when there’s no public health that’s functioning in this country, we can, we can see what happened during the last pandemic and just make that comparison and draw those comparisons, you know, what would happen in the next one. Right. also that, you know, to me and Sunhui, you can totally. speak to this, but to me, Carrier X, the person that represents is this kind of violence and nihilism that exists inside of the, you know, the current, you know, psyche or administration right at this moment. this real like. It’s definitely violent to the point of not caring whether people live or die and so I, you know, I think that’s very striking about the play and it happening right now as premiering it right now, because I think people can draw a lot of parallels between. Like this personality, this complete disorder that seems to be going on, like not only in American politic, but amongst the large population in America itself. You know what I mean? That kind of disregard.

Miko Lee: [00:16:18] Joan, that is so interesting. I wonder if you both can talk a little bit more about Patient X as this kind of figure of narcissism and selfishness that we’re seeing that’s happening in our broader politics right now.

Sunhui Chang: [00:16:31] Yeah, Carrier X, he does, you know, he does kind of represent this nihilism of American nihilism, which to me it’s really historical and cultural. we could go all the way back to the nihilism of manifest destiny, feeling like we have something to do that it was even, maybe. God’s order, you know, a higher order that was given to us.
And we have to take on this task and finish the task at no matter what cost, right? By any means necessary in a way. and that nihilism for me, I. historical, but when I see it currently that happens now, is that I see nihilism in the fact that people want to cut off Medicaid, Medicare, these social programs that are not just help people actually are crucial and it’s really, it’s a survival. So for me, when I see that kind of disregard, yes, it’s not this overt violent nihilism, but I do find it to be so nihilistic in the damage that it does to all of us, you know? And I do find That this nihilistic violence, there’s two flip side to it. The people who are directly affected, and harmed by it, but also the people who carry it are out, who carry out these acts of nihilism they do get damaged as well. So for me, so yeah, the nihilism, it’s taken on a different life, but. It’s a part of America and it seems to continuously carry forward through our days.

Miko Lee: [00:18:00] And Sunhui with the intentional characters, the lead being Korean American adoptee, and, the detective being a black woman, and then carrier X being white. Share with me a little bit about the racial element and your intention behind making those characters of those, ethnic backgrounds.

Sunhui Chang: [00:18:20] You know, there was no intention, as I said, I just write very organically. So there was never this thought of, oh, here’s the three characters. One’s gonna be a Korean adoptee, one’s gonna be a black homicide detective, and another’s gonna be a white carrier. It was never that I. It’s hard for me to explain the process, but those were the characters that just kind of naturally came out. for me, it just felt fitting to it. So, I don’t have agendas as I write, as I said, so there was none of that. It was just for me, as a vessel of the story, as a story was coming out, it was just. Oh yeah, this character is this, this character is that, and this one is this. so no intention. But, once those things came alive, then the story kind of, evolves around what’s, organically happening. So yeah, there wasn’t intent, but at the end of it all, of course, I go, oh, I see what has come about and how the story is so, In hindsight now going, oh yeah, I did this. for me, it feels right in the, in the fact that for me, this is America Miko. To me, I, I don’t write with an Asian American kind of pen, or, or a brown person pen for me, I actually first and foremost say I’m an American. There’s no way around it. and it’s simply put too, is that. I am an American. so for me, these characters are just. Natural. And when I know about me being American and knowing about American history, these characters just naturally fit in, you know?

Miko Lee: [00:19:50] Yep. Thank you so much. I’ve read that you talk about new Americana theater. Mm-hmm. And also Joan, you were talking about how during the pandemic, you know, everybody’s learning new techniques, new ways of storytelling, just because everybody was forced to with the lockdown. Sunhui, can you talk more about what you believe New America Theater is all about?

Sunhui Chang: [00:20:12] For me, the reason why I kind of see it as new Americana theater, first off, ’cause it’s, it’s American, the stories that come out of me is very American. you know, and I recognize it. And for me, I, it is, this is part of the American fabric, so that’s why it’s called Americana.
And for me, I say it’s new. ’cause what’s new is the perspective that it’s coming out from. perspective, which brings on different characters, a different storyline, you know, different message. So yeah, that’s, that’s it for me when I refer to it as New America in the theater. It’s just that, that it’s, it’s an American tale that now we’ve been able to incorporate new voices into.

Miko Lee: [00:20:54] I noticed there’s a really large list of collaborators. Of course the two of you, but then there’s a lot of other people as well. Can you talk about that creative process, how you all were able to work together, how you made decisions about, oh, this is the part we’re gonna use film, this is the part we’re gonna use, movement.

Sunhui Chang: [00:21:11] Like I said, it’s very much organic. Our third major collaborator is Ellen Sebastian Chang. she is the director of the show, and when me, Joan and her, we first started delving into it, we did. It was just sitting down and talking a lot. Going through the scripts, the different skill sets that we bring in. And really it was through the dialogue miko and of us talking with each other, but also listening to each other. and that was a big part is that as we started listening to ourselves, we came out with this direction.

Miko Lee: [00:21:47] And what would you both like the audience to walk away with after seeing the boiling?

Joan Osato: [00:21:52] I think, you know, as Sunhui talked about this, ritual of deep listening and so, the play doesn’t guide anyone towards some natural conclusion that they should have about, you know, it’s, it’s not saying you, you must believe this, it’s really leaving it up to the viewer, the listener, to draw their own conclusions. And, I think that, that people who come to this will be incredibly moved. I think that they will see a lot of parallels with what we’re going through now and what we’ve gone through. And examine there is a kind of shameful history that we all need to grapple with, whether we own it or not. You know, Sunhui had talked about manifest destiny and that being like one of the founding, you know, kind kinds of principles that this country is founded upon. And there are many, many others That I think the play touches on which give pause and, and give the people who are engaging with this, room to think and reexamine their own actions in the world and how they approach it.

Sunhui Chang: [00:23:02] I’ll just mention as an aside, you know, some of the things that we’re looking at is. Our disconnect from the natural world and how that has impacted the natural world. Right. I think Joan is spot on in, in that about, yeah, first and foremost, I do find this so important once again to say about listening. I do. I, that is the big thing that I would love is that for us to, if we really wanna truly have dialogues, and especially with people who we disagree with, and there is a lot of disagreement in this world right now. and for me, yeah, to, Get us back to a place where we could really listen to each other and not be in such a place where all we wanted to do is kind of say what we have to say. It’s almost this thing of, oh, you know, the other has to listen, the other has to listen. And I really would like it that it becomes kind of more inward that we all say, Hey, it is time for me to listen. And then of course just the fact that when, as we listen to each other, what I do find and what I hope that others find as well, is that we’re much more connected and we have so many things that tie us together than separate.

Miko Lee: [00:24:19] Well, thank both of you so much for joining us on Apex Express. Is there anything else you wanna add?

Sunhui Chang: [00:24:24] Just one thing, Miko, one of the elements of this play, is this natural world with birding and I would love to just, one of the big inspiration is that it’s just a quote from Emily Dickinson and the quote is, “hope is the thing with feathers.” For me, I would love for people to kind of sit with that and think about that and what that means for us as human beings in relationship to the natural world, you know, and the importance of that.

Miko Lee: [00:24:52] Oh, that’s such a beautiful visual image. Thank you so much for sharing that. I appreciate both of you for sharing your time with me.

Joan Osato: [00:24:59] Thank you, Miko.

Sunhui Chang: [00:25:00] Thank you Miko

Miko Lee: [00:25:01] The Boiling is a brand new play, and it’s a story of a Korean American adoptee Brian, who’s a virologist from the Midwest, and a former homicide Detective v, a black woman who lives in the Pacific Northwest, and they’re partnered to do this trace and track from north to south. They’re following David, a white nihilistic carrier of a feverish virus called the Boiling. This world Premier Show opens to the magic theater and runs from April 2nd through April 20th. You can get more information about this show, including links to buy tickets at our show notes on kpfa.org/programs/apexexpress.

Ayame Keane-Lee: [00:25:42] Next we’ll listen to an excerpt from The Camp, the first opera on the Japanese American Concentration camps during World War II. The camp premiered from February 22nd to March 2nd, 2025 at the JACCC Aratani Theater in Los Angeles. Composed by Daniel Kessner, who combines modern classical with Japanese instruments, A libretto by Lionelle Hamanaka, directed by Diana Wyenn, with Associate Director John Miyasaki, 11 singers and a 22 piece orchestra conducted by Steve Hofer. The incidents in The Camp Opera were drawn from different camps where over 126,000 Japanese Americans were imprisoned to see the many Japanese American groups that supported this project, including JANM, DENSHO and Raf Shimpo see the camp opera.com and if you know a place where The Camp can be performed near you, please contact the campopera.com/support.

MUSIC

Miko Lee: [00:27:53] Welcome to Apex Express. I’m so glad to have Eth-Noh-Tec once again, we get Robert Kikuchi-Yngojo and Nancy Wang.

Nancy Wang: [00:28:03] Yay. Yes. Hi. Hello. So glad to be here with you Miko.

Miko Lee: [00:28:07] We have been friends and colleagues for, it feels like a hundred billion years. The times that we’re in are so complicated right now. But I just wanna first start with the question I often ask people, which is for each of you to tell me who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?

Nancy Wang: [00:28:27] Well, I am Chinese American, and I am fifth generation on my mother’s side. And. So we go all the way back to 1850 when our family first came on a junk boat and started the fishing industry in the Monterey Bay area.

Robert Kikuchi-Yngojo: [00:28:45] And I am, half Japanese, half Filipino, born in San Francisco, raised in Concord, California, and living in the Bay Area for all my life.

Miko Lee: [00:28:50] And what legacy do you carry with you?

Robert Kikuchi-Yngojo: [00:28:58] Well, I guess the identity I have as an Asian American, Japanese, and Filipino, um, I embrace all of that. The legacy is, as an artist, a performer. I’ve dedicated my life to creating works that reflect an Asian American consciousness, social, political, cultural. Both traditional works as well as new modern stories and music as well.

Nancy Wang: [00:29:25] And I was also a psychotherapist, so my work in the arts, whether it’s dance, which I started out being a dancer and then a playwright, and then storytelling. I always weave in the healing aspect of what we all need to do in our communities. And so I use my art to also bring solace and bring celebration and bring, Depth and and the breadth of who we are as Asian Americans, as human beings, as part of this world, this country, then this city, so that we can celebrate who we are together.

Miko Lee: [00:30:04] Thank you for that. I hear you talking about activism, Asian American history, who we are and healing. I’m wondering if you could give me an update about what you’re working on right now.

Nancy Wang: [00:30:14] Well, we have several things in the pipeline. I, for one, just finished writing and has now published Red Altar, which is the story of my ancestors. Three generations are followed in this book, about how they established the fishing industry in the Monterey Bay area. All the ways they had to reinvent themselves as laws were passed against them. The people try to get rid of them. And it’s really a story of courage and determination and persistence, ingenuity and obviously success. Because I’m here. So I’m gonna be doing some more readings and that can be found on our webpage. Right. And Robert,

Robert Kikuchi-Yngojo: [00:30:55] I am focusing on archiving our work and after working with Nancy and creating Eth-Noh-Tec for the last 43 plus years, we have developed over 200 stories, and we put them on stage.
We’ve written them, some of them are now being written as a compendium of stories. These are Neo-traditional folk tales and myths from Asia. And, people don’t know much of this, but I am also an artist, so I’m creating illustrations that depict these stories. That’s one project.

Nancy Wang: [00:31:23] Yeah, that’s our next book. but what we’re really excited about is our second Strong Like Bamboo, stories of resilience in the era of Asian American hate, but it’s really broadened beyond Asian American because this year on May 22nd, will be a gathering of Latino and Asian artists and musicians, storytellers, and activists to just sit around and really share our stories, share our music, share our concerns, and to build bridges with each other because it, we will need to increase, our coalitions during this era. It’s gotten worse, so we really need to come together.

Robert Kikuchi-Yngojo: [00:32:08] and we titled it strong like bamboo because of the Asian anecdote about, you know, one bamboo can snap, but together binding many bamboo together we’re much stronger. So it’s a call out to the community to bring all of our constituents and broaden that so that we are strong, as people of color.

Nancy Wang: [00:32:25] And of course we’re gonna have food, which always brings us all together. But also bamboo can bend. Without breaking, so that’s on a Thursday, May 22nd. But on May 25th, I have curated four other storytellers to tell their stories of their racist experiences and how they came through it to a healing place.

Robert Kikuchi-Yngojo: [00:32:48] There’s a gathering of Asian American storytellers, both from the Chicago area and also from the west coast.

Nancy Wang: [00:32:53] And there’ll be a panel so they can ask questions and we can have discussions. But after that, the people in the audience will have the opportunity to break up into small groups of three in which they get to share their own stories, their own concerns, and that’s really the whole thing is about inspiring people to come through what they’re going through and coming out, on the other side with some hope and healing.
Because when we share our stories, we lift that particular burden of, say our story about our racist experience. We lifted off our own shoulders and we get to share it. With someone who’s listening with compassion and we don’t feel alone anymore. It’s really a powerful, powerful way to find community connection, relation, and strength.

Robert Kikuchi-Yngojo: [00:33:45] And we’ll have also in both of those events, resources in earlier years, I was an Asian American songwriter and did a lot of songs of not just identity, but of unity. I’m also gonna be singing a theme song called Bamboo, which is part of the title and also, a work by Chris Jim, famous of the Chris and Joe Asian American Duet from years ago. the one song we’re still here, though it was written 30, 40 years ago. It’s still pertinent to what’s going on now, especially declaring that America is a multiracial, multiethnic, texture of society.

Nancy Wang: [00:34:20] and, in 2026 we’re gonna bring on, African-American and Euro-American, storytellers also, so that we really have a multicultural representation of all who we are and how we still will need to come together. I hope things will be better by 2026, but who knows?

Miko Lee: [00:34:39] Thank you so much for sharing about how storytelling can really be a tool for social change. Is there anything else you wanna share with our audience?

Nancy Wang: [00:34:47] Yeah. please come to our strong like Bamboo on May 22nd and 25th is gonna be at the San Francisco Public Library Main Library, both are free to the public May 22nd the Thursday at May 22nd, it’s gonna be in Hispanic room,

Robert Kikuchi-Yngojo: [00:35:05] and what time?

Nancy Wang: [00:35:06] Six to seven-thirty. And on Sunday it’ll be in the presentations, the performances in the panel will be in the Koret auditorium, and then small groups will convene in the Hispanic room, which is right next door, and it’s got elevators. So no problem, in getting there. Plus Bart and the bus is, it’s easy to get there. And so that’s what we wanted so that people could feel welcome.

Robert Kikuchi-Yngojo: [00:35:35] And that second show on Sunday Strong like Bamboo will feature our guest artist storytellers, professional storytellers. One of them being a local Eleanor Clement Glass who’s half African American and Filipino, talking about her experiences. And then also, two guest artists from Chicago, one of them being Lillian Ji, who is a Japanese American hapa. Then third is, Archie Jun, who is a Thai American gay comedian storyteller who is a total riot. we are really wanting to blend many of our communities together to hear this talent Yes. And to deal with the topics.

Nancy Wang: [00:36:10] So we would love for the LGBTQ plus community to come out as well and support him and feel proud because all of the stories will, will really showcase our strength and our ability to deal with these things and come out the other side. So we are hoping that in the process of telling our pain, but coming out, on the other side, that it will be an inspiration for everyone to keep going during this difficult, very difficult time.

Miko Lee: [00:36:41] Thank you so much for joining me today.

Nancy Wang: [00:36:44] You’re welcome. Thank you

Ayame Keane-Lee: [00:36:46] You are listening to 94.1 KPFA and 89.3 KPFB in Berkeley, 88.1 KFCF in Fresno, and online worldwide at kpfa.org.

Miko Lee: [00:37:05] Welcome Jiehae Park to Apex Express. I am so excited to talk to you about the world premier of the aves opening at Berkeley Repertory Theater, May 2nd through June 8th. Welcome to Apex Express.

Jiehae Park: [00:37:19] Hi, Miko. It’s so nice to be here. Thanks for having me.

Miko Lee: [00:37:22] I wanna just first start with a personal question, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?

Jiehae Park: [00:37:31] Hmm. I love the phrasing of that question. I was born in Korea and I came to the states when I was three years old with my parents who came to go to graduate school. And my father’s family fled the north during the war. And my mother’s family had always been in the south. And I definitely think that who they are and where they came from is a big part of who I am and the questions that I think of. And in a lot of ways, not just, racially and culturally, but also in terms of their interests. They’re both scientists. This play deals, I hope thoughtfully with questions of identity and consciousness, that I’ve always been interested in.

Miko Lee: [00:38:18] And what legacy do you feel like you carry with you from them?

Jiehae Park: [00:38:22] Hmm. I mean, I write a lot about immigrants. This play isn’t specifically about that, but in a lot of my previous work, I, I have. have written a lot about immigrants and I feel like my parents, you know, they came to this country when they were in their twenties. They didn’t speak the language. They came from a generation of folks and at that time in the country where they were really, they had to be a certain way to survive. And I think that, intensity of work ethic, and the things that you also have to give up in order to get to where you think you wanna be, that question is, is part of their legacy to me. It’s a, it’s a gift and also something that, like a lot of other immigrants, I think I’m always sort of turning over in my mind and, and trying to look at from other angles.

Miko Lee: [00:39:12] Thank you for sharing. I’m wondering if you can talk to us about, first this title of your, world Premier, the aves. Where did this title come from? What is it about?

Jiehae Park: [00:39:23] So the title is the Latin word for Birds. And, the play there’s a mystery that sort of unspools early on. So without, without giving too much away we see this old couple on a bench, on a park bench, and they have clearly been together for a long time and they are having a conversation that seems like a very ordinary conversation. And over the course of the first scene, we soon learn that they are discussing, doing something that will have ramifications throughout the rest of the play. And the aves is a word that I loved because of the association with birds. There, there are birds that make an appearance in this play, in both pedestrian and unexpected ways, in mysterious ways, and hopefully humorous ways. and then the connotation also of Ave Maria and this, this feeling of the sacred, which also infuses the play, which has a lot of humor, but also when I was writing it, I was thinking a lot about nature and the passage of time and this feeling of awe that I get when engage with nature. And I think that word also has those connotations for me.

Miko Lee: [00:40:46] And that sounds like a mystery that people need to come to find out more about. Can you tell us what inspired this work?

Jiehae Park: [00:40:54] I used to live on the northside of Central Park in Harlem, and I had this tiny, tiny little window that looked out, onto the north side of the park. And every day I would sit down to write and through my tiny window, I would see the same man sitting on this bench every day. And as the seasons changed and the leaves changed and the light changed, but still every morning there was the consistency of seeing the same person. And I think I I was thinking a lot about the passage of time and of nature shifting And I think subconsciously I was thinking about getting older myself. This was a time before I had children, but I was starting to become aware of my parents aging and generationally My peers, also our parents were aging and, and starting to have, you know, the complications and the beautiful things that can come with that. So I think all of that was a big soup in my subconscious. and I sat down and I wrote the first scene very quickly and then. I didn’t know exactly what the rest of the play was gonna be, but I knew structurally that the first scene would be this old couple and that the second scene would be, a slightly different configuration of, of bodies. But that was hard to be so mysterious, um, and that the nex scene would be a different specific configuration of body. So I was thinking about the age of the bodies that you’re watching and the story evolved from that. And I guess I should say that the play is set in a moment sort of best after now.
So it’s not the present, but it’s not the distant future. It’s certainly not like hard sci-fi by any means, but I think it uses some tools of speculative fiction. To ask questions that hopefully are illuminating about ourselves now.

Miko Lee: [00:42:59] Interesting. Did you ever talk with the man in the park that inspired this piece?

Jiehae Park: [00:43:05] You know, it’s so funny. After the first couple of weeks of watching him, I realized he lived in my building and I hadn’t noticed him before.

Miko Lee: [00:43:18] Wow. That’s amazing.

Jiehae Park: [00:43:20] And I think that that’s also something that. I had been thinking a lot about at the time this question of presence and attention, especially in New York, which is a city that is so loud. I mean, I love, I love New York and there’s so many things that I love about New York, but it is such a loud city and it is hard to hear yourself think and, and the quality of attention in any. I was gonna say in any city, but in like any moment in our extremely chaotic world, I mean, especially now, that sort of quiet present quality of attention that I think is so beautiful and so rare, and I associate with, I’m not religious, but, but when I was a kid, I was, and this, this quality of, of sacred space, I think I was, I was really curious about that. And at the time, I think I had also that year gone on a silent meditation retreat. so trying to bring that quality of attention to my ordinary life as a urban citizen, I think was also part of the experience of writing the play. But yeah, he lived in my building and I hadn’t noticed him before. And so this question of what do we notice and what do we need to shift in ourselves to notice what’s in front of us and has been in front of us.

Miko Lee: [00:44:44] I am hearing you talk about a sense of presence and, and time passing. I’m wondering if that is what you want the audience to walk away with or are there other things that you’re interested in provoking with this piece?

Jiehae Park: [00:44:57] As an audience member, when I go to any play, I always hope to leave a little bit different than how I entered and. That shift can be really subtle. In fact, for me as an audience member, sometimes it feels more profound when it is subtle. So on, on like at like a really baseline level. We’ve been having a lot of conversations with the design team about how to create this. Quality of space that feels different from the mundane so that when we enter the space of the theater, so for our body chemistry changes and that we are being asked by the play to lean in and pay attention perhaps in a way that we’re not asked to pay attention, in, in the world outside of that room. And to be able to request that of an audience and share that with an audience. Together, I think is such a beautiful thing. And, and one of my favorite things about any collective experience when, when it all feels like we’re breathing together. And my hope is that that’s something that we can create, at a, like a biochemical level in our bodies, on a sort of more. Intellectual, emotional, philosophical level. I think there are questions that the play is asking about, what makes us, us and memory and the ability of a person and a relationship to change over a long period of time. And over the course of events that. May require forgiveness. those were certainly things that I was thinking about while I was writing it. So there’s also that, that more character relational level of questioning that, that I think, will resonate with people, in different ways depending on where they are in their lives. And then I think especially because, you know, there’s a lot of conversation about sandwich generation now, like folks, I. Who have dealt with aging themselves or aging parents and, the complexities and possibilities that can create. I think that there’s another layer of the play that stirs up some of those questions as well.

Miko Lee: [00:47:04] Speaking of complexities and possibilities, I understand that you studied music and that you’re also an actor and then you also write for Marvel’s Runaways. Can you share a little bit about how these different elements impact you as a writer, as a creator?

Jiehae Park: [00:47:20] Yeah, so I started as an actor, which I think a lot of people do, mostly because it’s the most accessible thing. Like you can audition for a play. You can’t sort of audition to write a play. you can just write a play. But that, I think, came later for me. I don’t really perform a ton anymore, although I did love it. and then the shift to television happened eight or so years ago. There’s a big movement of playwrights moving into television, during peak tv. And they’re very different. there is some shared similarity in storytelling instincts and craft. but the mediums are just really different, so I feel like I get very different things from, from all of them. I feel like I learned being a performer for a long time. As an artist, it’s just getting to bump up against people who you think are fascinating and learn from them what you like and what you don’t like, and who you wanna be and who you don’t wanna be. and from tv I think I learned, To not be so precious. It takes a really long time for me to write a play. and I used to think, oh, I have to go into the woods and like be silent for a month and then like a play will emerge. And like sometimes it happens and it, that feels like a blessing when it does. But in TV, because there’s so much money at stake and so much time pressure that you know, when something’s due, it’s just due and you turn it in. And if it’s not perfect, you just deal with it and you make it as good as you can. And I think that there’s a certain amount of shedding of perfectionism, which has been really healthy for me. but I do. Love the theater for the ability to spend a long period of time contemplating something and, and making it with a group of people who feel inspiring and we’re all moving towards the same thing. and I think there’s a little bit more space or a lot more space in the theater for things that may feel. mysterious or more open. whereas in television especially these days with the sort of decline of peak TV, there’s an expectation of propulsion. Like overt propulsion, if that makes sense. That is not a criticism like, you know, I also love TV. but it is, it’s like the pace of it is different and the ask of it is different than the ask of a play and and the baseline thing of just, you’re not in the same room with the people experiencing it that is so special in theatre.

Miko Lee: [00:49:45] How do you go about shifting that mindset for that kind of speed of TV that you’re describing versus the kind of longer meditative state of creating theater?

Jiehae Park: [00:49:55] Yeah, I mean, I think there’s hopefully a two-way exchange. Because I also think that bringing some of those qualities of thoughtfulness and deliberation to the world of TV within the container, within the boundaries of it, can be incredibly useful. And ultimately a lot of the things that delight people, delight people regardless of the format.
So that, like, that feeling of inevitable but surprising, like that’s something that is of tremendous value in all mediums, right? I think for me personally, when I write a play. I try to make a space in my life that is a little more still. and I have a toddler now, so that’s challenging. But in a way, working in television has been really helpful for that because, you know, I don’t have five hours in the middle of the day to, you know, be with myself and listen to the trees. I maybe have like 30 minutes, but to try to drop into that as. quickly and without angst, without like working myself up about it.
’cause that’s a waste of time. That’s been a useful lesson to learn. Whereas working in television can feel a lot less lonely also than playwriting because in a writer’s room, most shows in the states are written in the writer’s room, there are few exceptions, and you’re with a group of people. And so there’s a sort of energetic exchange happening there that in a play only happens much, much later when you’re in rehearsal and ideally in production. there’s a sort of joyful energy and exchange that can happen in a writer’s room, both when you’re breaking the story and then ultimately when you’re in production. And there’s like many, many more people involved. And there’s the crew and the cast and you know, all of the technical departments and producers. I feel like you mentioned, Code switching earlier. And, humans are so adaptable and I think we automatically sort of shift our brain chemistry and our body chemistry in response to the environment around us. sometimes very consciously, sometimes unconsciously, sometimes both. so I think a certain amount of that is just, okay, these are the given circumstances. And then, you become who you need to be in that space.

Miko Lee: [00:51:54] Thank you for sharing. Okay. I have one last TV question, which is that given that everybody’s in this writing room together and you’re, there’s kind of a speed that’s attached to it, do you feel like things get thrown out more quickly and with less kind of emotion attached to it than in theater?

Jiehae Park: [00:52:10] It’s possible. I think it depends on the person. So I just worked on season four of the morning show last year. And there is a real need on that show because it deals with the news to be absorbing what’s happening in the world and shifting the story based on that.
And so that there has to be a sort of lightness around that. So in that kind of environment, absolutely. but I’ve also been in other rooms where someone got really attached to an idea, and maybe it was clear that that idea wasn’t gonna work out, but there was, there was still like something, in it that wanted to be held onto and, and it may be hung on for a long time.
And that process. Also could have happened, like that exact parallel process could have happened in a play. And actually in neither of the situation, is that necessarily a bad thing? Like is there something about that idea that maybe is not the idea itself, like the emotional core underneath it or the deep, deep idea underneath it that is useful? That even if the manifestation of the thing doesn’t continue, if the manifestation gets thrown out, but like the real thing that was underneath it was important gets folded in in some unexpected way. I don’t think it’s a bad thing either way. It just is the peculiarities of any particular process.

Miko Lee: [00:53:22] And it sounds like it’s about the people too, right?

Jiehae Park: [00:53:25] Yes, definitely. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I’ve certainly been in that book where I’m like, oh, I really think it’s like this. It’s gotta be this, it’s gotta be this. And then, you know, two years later, I look at the draft, I’m like, oh, no, no, no. It, it is definitely not that. Like let me take that entire thing out. and it just was in that particular moment, I wasn’t ready for whatever reason to let go of that idea. And that’s okay. I am now, and then it moves on.

Miko Lee: [00:53:48] We’re circling back to the beginning of the conversation about the aves, which is about presence and being in that moment. And where you are in that moment might be, no, this isn’t right. And then years later you say, oh yeah, that wasn’t right. Or that was right.

Jiehae Park: [00:54:03] Yeah, exactly, exactly. To listen to yourself is a, you know, I, I am, I’ve been doing this for a long time now and, that is still something that I feel like I always have to learn, that I think just is a human.

Miko Lee: [00:54:15] Yes. The perennial lesson of Yes, intuition. I’m wondering if you could tell our audience why they should go see the aves.

Jiehae Park: [00:54:24] My hope is that if you are curious about a certain kind of experience and attention in the theater, that you’ll accept our invitation to this play, which is an unusual play. I don’t think that everyone should see this play, just like, I don’t think everyone should see any particular work of art, but if the things that we’ve been discussing, if the sort of vibe that you’re getting from this conversation resonates with you, then the experience of seeing this play with a group of people who are also curious about that kind of experience may be something. That is enjoyable for you and would probably therefore also be enjoyable for that audience to be together with you and for the play to be together with you in that space.

Miko Lee: [00:55:17] Thank you so much for spending time chatting with us. Folks can see the aves at Berkeley rep May 2nd through June 8th. Thank you so much, Jiehae.

Ayame Keane-Lee: [00:55:26] For you Asian American film makers out there: SFFILM announced a new annual filmmaking grant in partnership with Cedar Road. The SFFILM Cedar Road Iyagi Grant is dedicated to fostering bold, original feature film projects that amplify Asian and Asian American perspectives on screen. In Korean, iyagi means “story”—a word that embodies the heart of this grant’s mission: to champion storytelling as a powerful bridge connecting people across cultures and perspectives. A link to the grant application will be available in our show notes.

Miko Lee: [00:55:58] Please check out our website, kpfa.org to find out more about our show tonight. We think all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important.

APEX Express is created by Miko Lee, Jalena Keane-Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar, Anuj Vaidya, Swati Rayasam, Aisa Villarosa, Estella Owoimaha-Church, Gabriel Tangloao, Cheryl Truong and Ayame Keane-Lee.
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APEX Express – 3.27.25 – Trans Day of Visibility
27 mar· KPFA - APEX Express
A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.
Resources:

Lavender Phoenix: website | instagram
QTViet Cafe: website | instagram
Mugworts Queer Cabin: website
Underpainting Collective: instagram
Aetelier Collective / Suncha: instagram | spotify | show on march 30 in Newark, CA
Minjoona Music instagram | spotify

Transcript:
Cheryl Truong (she/they): Good evening and welcome to tonight’s episode of apex express. I’m your host, Cheryl Truong and tonight show is in honor of Trans Day of Visibility, but we’re not just here to talk about visibility in that surface level way get sometimes framed as a political strategy. We’re here to hold the fullness of trans life, the rage, the fear, the grief, and the joy, the power and the brilliance. Across the nation, a storm of hostility is being unleashed against the LGBTQ plus community.
In 2024 alone, 617 anti-trans bills were introduced. Making it the fifth consecutive record breaking year for legislation targeting trans rights. This year, that number has already climbed to 796 bills. This is horrifying. Yes. But even in the face of all of this, Our trans and queer community have never stopped living have never stopped dreaming. Have never stopped building futures from the margins.
And so I hope tonight as much as it is important to stay rooted and grounded in our political reality that is having very real, very immediate consequences on our trans and queer and gender expansive community. We also want to center trans joy because trans joy is not a distraction.
It is a strategy, a survival skill, and a source of power. So we’re gathering in that spirit of resistance, remembrance, and radical joy tonight. And I’m honored to be joined by some incredible guests whose lives and work, reflect that very spirit. First we have Jean and Hải from QTViệt Cafe a creative cultural hub, dedicated to queer trans (QT Viet) liberation through ancestral practices, the arts and intergenerational connection. And we’re also joined by eri oura from Lavender Phoenix, also known as LavNix, an organization that builds trans non-binary and queer API power in the bay area. Thank you all so much for being here. To start us off can you all introduce yourselves so that our listeners can connect your voices to names?
Hải Võ: Yeah, thanks Cheryl. Chào mọi người My name is Hải. And I am a member of Asian Refugees United, QTViệt Cafe Collective. And, yeah, thanks so much for having me.
Jean Phạm (they/them): Hey, I’m Jean. I use they/them pronouns and I also organize with Hải at QTViệt Cafe Collective.
I’m also a part of a newly formed art collective called Under Painting Collective. We’re taking over an art school. We teach oil painting and charcoal drawing. Thanks for inviting us to be here, Cheryl.
eri oura (they/them): Hey, thanks Cheryl for having us. I’m eri. I am part of LavNix I am also part of Mugworts, a queer, and trans BIPOC centered cabin out in Greenville. , and I’m excited to be here.
Cheryl Truong (she/they): Before we begin, I want to offer a logistical note. For our listeners if you were interested in any of the organizations that were mentioned, and it will be mentioned throughout the show
such as Mugwort and Lavender Phoenix, which eri mentioned. Or QTViệt Cafe mentioned by Hải and Jean, and of course the Underpainting collective you could find their socials in the show notes on our website, kpfa.org/programs/apex-express.
Okay. Transition. I want to start with a question that is intentionally spacious. What is on your heart right now as a trans person moving through the world. Hải, do you want to start us off?
Hải Võ: Hmm.
Yeah chia buồn That’s the phrase that comes up for me. I just share in sadness. Usually that’s a phrase to describe when someone passes in the Việt community. The way that I hear about how folks in our community are experiencing job insecurity, housing insecurity, being arrested, detained, deported. My days and my hearts are just broken. My heart has gone in many cycles of heartbreak over my whole life, as a queer person, as a trans, femme person. It isn’t to say that this is anything new or that I haven’t been in practice to mend my heart. This is just a incredibly heightened time. It’s starting to not just hurt my heart, but also I feel it viscerally. It’s much more tangible. We’re talking about our lives, each other’s lives. And so yeah, my heart is breaking.
I feel the frustration and the anger and the more frequent, heightened fear. But to be honest with you, our ancestors have equipped us for this moment. And I think there are reasons why, this moment exists. This is the reason why we started QTViệt Cafe, why Asian Refugees United is here because we know that we’re trying to restore our wholeness, not just as trans folks, as queer folks, but just as people from a history of violence, trauma, and displacement. This isn’t the first time that all those things have come around. Our ancestors have faced these maybe in different contexts and maybe in our homelands more so. And while I have that frustration and that anger, the frequency is heightened, I feel steadfast and I feel more able to mend my heart and able to hold and mend other people’s hearts in this moment because we’ve been at this for so long. QTViệt
Cafe, we’re gonna be celebrating nine years this summer. So I just got chills because I, I think I, um, I have to like, hold myself in comfort for myself right now because, I mean, when I came out, to myself in my teen year or I knew I was queer and trans from a really young age.
I could see who I was, but I didn’t necessarily feel like it was who I truly was. And so I grew up in a world where I was living different realities or wanting a different reality from actually how I was. I’m getting chills because when I came out, I started coming out to friends and families in my late teens and early twenties, and then ultimately to my parents when I was 23. I didn’t know I would be able to live this long. I didn’t know I would be able to meet other queer and trans Viet people, other queer and trans folks of color or other queer and trans people in general. Couple that with like a food system that I’ve been in food for so long, , for almost 15 years. And so, trying to nourish. Queer justice is connected to all other forms of justice. I’ve been at land and food justice work for a long time. And so, what I was seeing with what was happening to me and our queer and trans kin, the injustices happening in our community, I was seeing also that with cultural injustice in Vietnam to the Vietnamese community here, and then ultimately to the food system here in the US. So it was all connected. I am both surprised and also really proud that I’m still here and the most comfortable and thriving I am in my skin.
Healing as a trans and queer person, I can only go so much. I can only heal so much on my own. The healing and the fight for liberation and freedom as queer and trans people happens so much more exponentially when done together.
And so, I’m just so proud of us for all the years of connecting with each other, getting to know each other, building friendship, relationships, and fighting for the future that we want. I’ll be turning in Viet age, I’ll be turning 40 next year. My doctor, when I was young and had type two diabetes said that I’ll only live to be 30. And so I’ve surpassed that. I’m excited for what magic we as queer and trans people continue to make, and what’s the fights that we will continue to have and ultimately the unprecedented and insurmountable victories and wins that we’ll have as a queer and trans community. ’cause we’ve been doing that forever and in this moment I wanna organize, I wanna help mend and heal our hearts and our minds so that we can really be able to like galvanize, organize, and create the practices and policies and futures that we actually want in the world, which we’ve been doing forever. I also think that it’s an important time right now to be really clear about what we need, to be really clear about what we want and gather in ways that we may not have gathered before. I see joy and health as part of struggle and freedom in liberation and organizing. And so, I’ll check there.
eri oura (they/them): That was so beautifully said Hải. Thank you for naming the resilience and the fight that queer and trans folks have had to exude to continue to exist. For me it has also been really difficult to see and witness the struggle that our folks are experiencing right now.
It’s really something to kind of trust in the state to hold our identities in a way that I don’t think the state ever really knew how to. I was reminded on a group coaching call with other trans folks, that trans folks have lived in the underground for most of time.
And that reminder really just made me feel we don’t need validation from these entities, you know? That’s never what has fulfilled our existence. It’s actually our joy. It’s actually our healing, our ability to not get bulldozed by waves of hate and transphobia. Queerphobia. It’s really important for us to remember that and remind young folks that truth even though there has been this chunk of time, maybe like the last decade or so, where our gender identities get acknowledged by the state, but that’s not where our validation comes from. We really need to not depend on these institutions. We take care of us. What I have been witnessing more is mutual aid being used as a way for our people to keep going. Honestly, I have never in my life gotten so many mutual aid requests as I have in the last few months which speaks to the heightened security and safety issues that our folks are experiencing in the queer and trans community. But also it’s a sign that people are leaning into being courageous and asking for help, which is not an easy thing to do. It’s not easy to ask for the help that we need. I think it’s really important for us to remember that we’re not alone. There are more than a billion people in this world I think I was also feeling overwhelmed by how much support folks were asking of me and I’ve had to say some grounded nos. And that kind of broke my heart honestly, to have to say no to a really courageous ask for support. My friend and coworker reminded me that there are so many other people in this world and we need to be able to share the the work of supporting each other to exist.
Jean Phạm (they/them): Mm-hmm. Wow, that’s beautiful. I’m loathed to go last. the first thing I think about is recently, one of the youth that I had formally worked with reached out and we just had a check-in and it really reminded me of the show Heartstopper, you know, these gay British kids. One of the gay kids, he is like always going to his art teacher about his various issues like, Hmm, I’m gay. Like, what do I do? And the art teacher’s just trying to have lunch. And I remember I used to be Charlie, the kid, but now I’m the art teacher trying to have lunch and trying to help this kid deal with crisis. I remember years ago, the first time Trump got elected, I remember the first thing that I was thinking about was ” oh, I, I guess I’ll never be able to transition or live my life the way I want or need to.” then I just kind of grieved that and made peace with it. I do wish I could speak to that version of me because I think it’s pretty similar to what Hải had shared. Personally, I do feel I am in probably the best form of myself that I’ve ever been. I’m the wisest I’ve ever been. I’m doing everything that I want to. I’m learning to heal my inner child. My taste in men has improved dramatically. I learned how to say no. There’s a lot of things that have just shifted that I think are net positives, but it’s in total, in contrast with the world in which we live ourselves. And I think similar to what folks have shared I think for me, I’ve just gone more hyperlocal. Right. Given that these institutions, our federal institutions, our state institutions have failed us. It’s just truly ripping the mask off. These are things we’ve known before. The ways in which we are being oppressed, the ways in which people spout hate. The rhetoric being used. It’s not new, it’s not novel. These are things we’ve heard over and over again. Like, if I wanted to cosplay as a hater, an alt-right hate, like, it’d be so easy, you know everything they say. There’s a sense that the oppression we face is so mundane and it’s so ordinary. The student had asked me oh, Jean, I’m so alone right now. What do I do as a young queer person trying to navigate the Trump of it all, and I was like, oh girl, you need to make friends. Like you really need to make friends. ’cause it’s really, yeah, like when our institutions fail us, our community really holds us out. It’s why I organized with the QTViệts. It’s why my art friends, we created Under Painting Collective. It’s why we find these pockets of the world that we really want to build and that are nourishing to us, our energy giving, that we wanna invest our time and resources in. And we try to carve out a version of the world that we wanna live in. And I think that’s how we ride it out, or that’s how we survive. We have to look super local. Yeah, I think that’s basically how I’m doing.
So I’ll, I’ll just check there too.
Cheryl Truong (she/they): Thank you all for sharing what’s in your heart.
Hải, thank you for bringing up chia buồn, sharing sadness, and for naming our legacies of ancestral resilience. eri, thank you for reminding us that the state and institutions have no say in the validation of our identities as trans and queer people. And for lifting up mutual aid as a beautiful alternative that supports, and I loved how you put this, those courageous asks for help that the state will never be able to provide. And of course for modeling those grounded no’s..
And Jean, thank you for your offerings of alt-right cosplay. And for grounding us in that strength of community. And I just want to say. A big, thank you to the art teachers in the middle of having lunch everywhere. I don’t know where we would be without you truly. ‘
We are going to take a quick music break, don’t go anywhere we’ll be right back with more conversation in honor of Trans Day of Visibility when we return. Next up, you’re listening to a track called “Juniper” by Minjoona, a project led by Korean American musician, Jackson Wright. This track features Ari Statler on bass, josh Qiyan on drums, and Ryan Fu producing. Juniper is the lead single from Minjoona’s newest release, the Juniper EP, a five track p roject rooted in indie rock, 60 throwback vibes, and lyric forward storytelling. You can follow Minjoona on Instagram at @minjoonamusic or find them on Spotify to keep up with upcoming releases. We’ll drop the links in our show notes. Enjoy the track and we’ll be right back.
And we’re back!!. You’re listening to APEX express on 94.1 KPFA, 89.3 KPFB in Berkeley. 88.1. KFCF in Fresno and [email protected]. That was “Juniper” by Minjoona.
Huge thanks to Jackson Wright and the whole crew behind that track. Before the break we talked about, what’s been sitting on our hearts as queer and trans people moving through the world right now, naming both the grief and also the resilience that we carry. I wanted to stay with that thread and widen the lens a bit because we know that even in the face of violence and erasure, trans resistance is alive and ongoing. So I want to ask, where are you seeing moments of resistance in the trans community?
Whether in movement spaces, small acts of care, or day to day survival.
eri oura (they/them): I am happy to share first. Where I’m seeing resistance, movement building work and also community building. My paid work with LavNix is definitely a space where we center trans justice and do the work of developing leaders with skills to be able to hold the line of our existence. Our existence is resistance. We don’t just see our own individual liberation as separate from everyone else’s. We are doing the work of advocacy around budget in San Francisco with our Care Not Cops campaign. We’re doing the work of lifting up our folks in our stories not just in the current moment, but also by lifting up like our QTAPI histories. QTAPI meaning queer and trans API folks. With Mugwarts, we provide a more accessible, affordable space for queer and trans BIPOC folks to heal. For me that is also part of the resistance, the fight, getting to rest because as we were checking in earlier and talking about how stress really does shorten people’s lifespans and quality of life. I think knowing that there’s space, there’s place, there’s land for us to engage with to do that work of healing. The more disconnected we are from that reality that we are connected with the land, it’s making it harder for us to be able to feel connected to ourselves, to each other. For me, when I go to the river for a swim or go to the ocean for a dip, that is part of my resistance too. My joy in being in that space is so important. Why would we fight if we had nothing to look forward to? Honestly, if it all just felt so mundane and also like we’re always fighting, we would just burn out. When we’re burnt out, it makes it hard for us to feel the light of our ancestors, feel the light of the universe that is actually our birthright to connect with. The reality is that this world is very abundant. Scarcity is a manufactured thing that, capitalism, the state is trying to push on us as a way to oppress us, to suppress us, to keep us down. When we tap into abundance, we tap into pleasure, we tap into joy. We tap into ease in this way that allows us to stay connected to each other, to ourselves, to other beings on this planet. Being rooted in abundance is a powerful act of resistance.
Jean Phạm (they/them): Yeah. Well said. I try to practice abundance, but I always feel all I know is scarcity. Great reminder. For me, trans justice is so embedded with so many larger movements like you have shared. Trans justice is disability justice. Trans justice is fighting for Palestinian liberation. Trans justice is anti-imperialist because I think ultimately, self-determination in our bodies. To be the way that we are.
I often feel spiritually as trans people, we know who we are so there’s a lot of abundance there. There’s a lot of wealth there. I would actually argue spiritually cis people have more to gain from trans justice than we do. I always share how trans people in pre-colonial societies were spiritual leaders, shamans, healers in the community. It was mentioned before that a lot of trans people today exist in underground economies or are just not embedded in society. There’s no place for trans people in our current world whereas there used to be. I do think that is one of the unstated qualities that we’re trying to bring within trans justice. I also will say in any given committee where people are doing actions or organizing or doing mutual aid, I can assure you that there is a, they them, there is a doll, there’s a trans gender expansive person, otherwise trans person in those committees, you know, People are moving.
In the topic of trans visibility day, we see the ramifications of that, right? Visibility doesn’t always offer us more power or safety. Institutions are realizing this. You see nonprofits, community orgs, they have to scrub every fixture of language around diversity, equity, inclusion, so that they aren’t being targeted by the federal government. Visibility isn’t really what trans justice is about, right? It has never really protected us. We’re fighting for basic things to survive, to work to make sure this stupid gender on our form is right. To walk to the store. In some sense, the way I’ve lived and expressed my transness, I always feel the un visible parts or the invisibility is where I will always feel more actualized. You know when people, cis people, strangers look at me and they’re like, who the hell is she? What is she like? What is that? I’m like, uh, My favorite moments are when people. Like in my old job when I had first moved to the Bay, I got this big sense that I declared to know, oh, I’m trans. And I could see the cogs turn in their head as they’re trying to figure out, oh, which way are they trans? And I love that. I love living in the ambiguity. To me, that’s always been more emblematic what being trans is to me is kind of just playing with expectations. Making people a bit more uncomfortable and allowing more for more experiences to live.
Hải Võ: What’s coming to mind, in addition to what you’ve all shared is, what does it mean for me to be on Turtle Island and in the diaspora? Part of transness and queerness is also understanding who we are and where we come from. In the context of just the nature of why I’m here on Turtle Island in diaspora is because the US was there in Vietnam. I think that means trans justice is actually beyond borders and actually recognizing that the history of our queer and trans people, trans justice means that we’re also acknowledging the struggles and liberations of our kin
in the homeland. When I think about trans justice, I can’t help but think about the fights against imperialism, colonization, the ways in which essentially trans and queer people in Vietnam have been discriminated, have been bullied, have been essentially because of colonization, imperialism, been wiped out of history.
And if it wasn’t for a culture that is by word of mouth and people from indigeneity that is questioning who we are and also being like, well, if we are trans and queer then we must have queer and trans ancestors. And we do. And that’s been a very healing journey for me. It’s been both hard but also very healing to know that queer and trans folks our age, even younger are also experiencing similar things to what we’re experiencing here as queer and trans folks in the diaspora. But it also means fighting for indigenous, local, queer and trans ancestral homeland experience also. I was just, we were just hearing about how USAID was paying for essentially medication for our people over there. But now with that gone, it’s like, what are people to do? And so it’s not even just, not just about trans lives. The defunding of that has also created stop in removal of Agent Orange. We have fields in Vietnam that have like, after that cut, are left to continue to have Agent Orange. Now, with the early monsoon seasons of the year, that water will permeate into millions of lives downstream. And Vietnam is a whole ecosystem of wetlands and water. And so for me, I just think about trans justice as as a Viet, as a Southeast Asian, as an Asian person, as a person who has lineage somewhere, ancestry, somewhere indigeneity somewhere, it means acknowledging the deep historical reparations that colonization, imperialism and modern day capitalism in parts. The last thing I’ll share for this one is I think that trans and queer justice is also ecological justice. This is very connected to what you were sharing, Jean. Ecology is essentially the study of home. There’s just been too many times in my life where home has been ripped from me. I’ve had to leave what I thought was home. I’ve had to feel like I, I needed to be a different thing outside of what my home actually is in my own body and my own mind. How can we create a piece of not just mind, but also piece of body, piece of place, piece of space, piece of an unlived ecology that transness and queerness is the norm.
And, I love learning about how nature is so queer and so trans. I mean me saying that and naming that is a hard thing to say. The English terms that we use is a very colonial thing, but the ways in which other animals and plants are in relationship to each other, I’m like, oh, worms having multiple genders, I’m like that. I feel like that. And so like, the worms probably have their own language about what that is. I’m not gonna like, “worms, teach me about who you are” because I’m not trying to appropriate you and I’m just like, this is this cool that nature is already in a state of abundance in itself, like queer abundance in itself.
Cheryl Truong (she/they): Ooh.
Thank you all for sharing those powerful reflections on resistance. It’s such a reminder that trans resilience doesn’t just show up in protests, policy fights, or in singular days like Trans Visibility Day. It lives on in our relationships. And our lineages in the everyday ways we refuse erasure.
As Hải reminded us. It stretches beyond borders and into our motherland, especially as diasporic trans or queer people of color. And it shows up when we play with people’s expectations. Like Jean confusing their colleagues assumptions about their gender. It’s also in the worms. In our ecologies. It shows up when we fight for Palestinian liberation. When we organize with value aligned groups, like Lavender Phoenix, like QTViệt Cafe it also shows up as Eddy beautifully names in our joy. I love the importance of uplifting that swimming in the ocean is part of resistance. Because rest is resistance. Pleasure is resistance. Our very existence is resistance. So, thanks for grounding us all in that
So we’ve just spent time talking about how resistance shows up in our trans and queer communities. And I now want to shift us into a conversation about what sustains us, what keeps us going, what brings us back to ourselves and to each other. But before we dive in, we’re going to take a quick music break.
Up next. You’re going to be hearing from Suncha, an Asian-American Bay area based band dabbling in punk rock, math rock, and groove-based jamming. The group features Ryan Foo on guitar and vocals. Jackson Wright on bass and vocals. And Abhay Malik on drums. You can catch Suncha live this Sunday at Simmer Huang in Newark, California. For more information, check them out on Instagram. @ ateliercollective That is spelled. A T E L I E R collective– link in our show notes. And keep an eye out Suncha’s debut album is set to drop in the summer of 2025. Enjoy the music and we’ll be right back. Welcome back!
You’re listening to APEX express on 94.1 KPFA, 89.3. KPFB in Berkeley, and 88.1 KFCF in Fresno and online at kpfa.org. Big shout out to Suncha for that last track. So much love to this Bay Area Asian American band bringing punk, math, rock and groove into our ears and hearts. You can catch them live this Sunday at Simmer Huang in Newark. More information on Instagram at @ateliercollective, as always link in our show notes.
I’m your host, Cheryl Truong and tonight’s show is in honor of Trans Day of Visibility. I’m here in conversation with Jean and Hải from QTViệt Cafe, which is a project of Asian Refugees United. And eri oura from Lavender Phoenix. Before the break we explored where trans resistance is showing up across our communities. Now I want to turn towards what sustains us, what keeps us rooted, nourished and connected as we continue dreaming and building together. So my next question: what kind of trans joy or wisdom has carried you through this past year?
Jean Phạm (they/them): I wanna uplift what Hải I had shared at the very beginning. The Vietnamese concept of chia buồn. Sharing sadness. We can survive if we each just take a little piece. The community takes a small morsel of someone’s burden and helps lift them up and share it. I really experienced that a couple weeks ago when my maternal grandmother passed away. And I think one of the biggest I feel tragedies is we’re all just trying to survive. Purchasing power definitely creates a difference, but the reality is in our terms of just lived experience, we’re just one or two paychecks from just full on destitution, you know? so we really rely on each other. When I heard that my grandma passed away, it was really hard for me because one is just going back to family is such a traumatic ordeal, and two, the flights were just logistically expensive. I just commiserated to one of my friends I had to do an overnight train down, which is maybe 10 hours. I mean, it’s fine. I’ve done it many times before. But I think as an act of care and mutual aid, my friends organized behind my back and were able to give me enough so that I could get a flight and not really think about the logistics so much so that I could just focus on being present and also deal with the mental load of being around my family again. To me that was an expression of trans joy in terms of all these relationships I had built, really came through and I wasn’t expecting it to, you know. One constant reflection I had was like, when people are grieving, am I just nice to them? Because I was like, I don’t think so. Maybe, you know, it’s hard to tell. But people really came through. And I think that really lifts me up and really I think about it so often. Being able to share in everyone’s sadness. I’ll also share within my close group of friends, I have this little scheme or theory called the Screaming Girl Theory. In a given week, only one of us can be the screaming crying girl and everyone has to support her. And then it rotates. In the scheme of things, it’s like, oh God, we’re all people of color who are all queer, trans or just have a touching point of just being oppressed in some way. If someone’s like, oh no, I’m having such a hard time because I’m depressed, I have anxiety, I’m a queer person of color. You know, that type of rhetoric. It’s hard in our space ’cause it’s like me too. Everyone’s going through it. So I think moments where we can share in that and rotate taking care of each other is really what has been keeping me going. And I also think it’s nice to care for other people too. That’s probably the final realization. People like helping, and giving people opportunities to help. I think it does induce a nice feeling and we may not always be well resourced or have the capacity to, but when we can, when we offer help to people, I think that’s something people generally wanna do in service of the community.
eri oura (they/them): I love this question because again, I feel like joy is so important right? In our fight for liberation, for Justice as trans folks, gender expansive folks.
I mean, honestly, being with other queer and trans folks is such a joy. When we’re marching in the streets together, when we’re organizing doing the back end work of creating the space for each other to feel safe. And not just safe, but also seen and held. Not only is it joyful, but it’s healing. When I think about trans justice, I think about healing justice as a intersection that we hold together. It’s inseparable, honestly. I do think that there is a lot of grief, a lot of hurt, a lot of trauma that we have to endure in this world and sometimes we inflicted on each other. But when we can turn that around and really face each other in those hard moments. It makes such a difference in the quality of our relationships. The depth of how much we can access within ourselves. We as trans and queer folks, it doesn’t matter what the state is trying to impose on us, trying to erase our existence, they have been doing that forever. They have been trying to eliminate us in this colonial context. It really is the joy that keeps us buoyant, that keeps us connected to the light of the universe that keeps us connected to each other. When other people who don’t understand transness see us in our joy, they just see joy and that makes it attractive. That makes it something they wanna be a part of. The fact that we have learned to put words to who we are in the deeper ways that words have evolved into is us really just trying to fit into this context of colonialism, meaning making, all of these things that I think are powerful tools, powerful skills to have. At the root of everything is we know we are a network that supports each other to exist. And being able to put words to that is such a gift. Without the words we communicate with each other in ways we see each other in ways that I don’t think people who are stuck in narrow binaries can actually see or feel or understand. For whatever reason that makes them angry. Their anger is just more fuel for us to lean into joy because it’s not even about them. We can have conversations, we can try to justify our joy and our existence, but at the end of the day when the sun goes down, we are who we are, and in the light it might be easier to see how magical we are, but in the darkness, I think. We glow in a way that people who are limited in their thinking are not able to. They can’t tap into that light.
Hải Võ: I used to hide a lot. I used to hide who I was in order to think that I would feel safe. Hide my queerness. Hide my transness. Because there were assumed fears that my parents being conservative Catholic that I would be reprimanded and then, that happened. There was a period of that very tragic dark times. Looking back at that, I think I needed to experience that in order to fully understand how deeply organized systems can be traumatic and be deeply problematic. And also lessons in how do we actually better organize our systems to not perpetuate discrimination, violence and trauma.
All that to say, I think that part of trans joy in the last year is instead of being less, getting smaller, being less than, hiding, actually, trans joy is just what you were saying, eri. Actually just being more me. Being more truthful. More honest. I’ve been on a healing journey with my dad the last year. We’ve been estranged for five years since my mom passed. I had gone to come to peace with, potentially not talking to my dad for a while. But I think that innately part of being Viet and wanting to reconnect with Vietnam is to try to connect with my dad as a portal or as a throughway to Vietnam. I took both the risk and the opportunity to reconnect with my dad with the hopes that we could heal our relationship. And just as much as I’ve gone through my own journey on transness and queerness, my dad has also too. There’s been a lot of apologies, A lot of me unearthing and upending a lot of my own truths and just being really honest about who I am and being more comfortable and more grounded in what I want to do in my life. My dad has too. As hard as the tensions are, and even if in the moment, our elders, our people, our families might not be voting in the ways that we want them to vote or be against the policies and practices that counter who we are. I think I’m hopeful for just being more honest with myself and getting out of our comfort zones and unease in order to really surface what needs to be said. That’s one. Two is, I just love meeting with our queer and trans elders. I think that’s been part of our joy. Shout out to Sống Thật, the first queer Viet radio show in San Jose. They literally just were like, we’re gonna take community college classes on radio and we want a show. We just wanna share that experience to dismantle a lot of the stereotypes. And so I think a lot of the, the trans joy that I’m experiencing is just we just gotta do it. We just gotta try it. I’m learning with our ancestors. Learning with our elders and just being like, we gotta try, we gotta do and yeah. I’ll check there. Mm-hmm.
Cheryl Truong (she/they): And that’s the end of our show. If you’re. Curious about the incredible work being done at Lavender Phoenix, Asian Refugees United, QTViệt Cafe, Mugworts, and Under Painting Collective, check out the links in show notes and learn more about how these groups are building trans and queer aAPI power, culture and care in our communities. You can access the show notes at kpfa.org/programs/apex-express.
Before we close out, I want to take a moment to uplift a campaign that is very close to my heart. Pardon APSC 4. Some of you listening may already be familiar with this campaign, they’ve been on our show before. Pardon APSC4 is a demand to Governor Newsom to pardon the APSC 4 which are Borey “Peejay” Ai, Nghiep “Ke” Lam, Chanton Bun, and Maria Legarda. Our beloved family members, the APSC 4 are at risk of deportation. We are asking you our listeners to join us in telling the governor to pardon them now so they can remain home with their families and communities. The APSC 4 are childhood survivors of violence and trauma. They are impacted by bullying, poverty, war, and domestic violence. Like so many others, they were funneled into the criminal legal system as youth. While incarcerated, they became leaders. They completed self-help and educational programs. They mentored others and committed themselves to healing and transformation. Each one of them have earned release through California’s parole process and were affirmed for release by both the board of parole hearings and Governor Newsom himself. But instead of being allowed to return home, ICE was contacted and now they face deportation simply because of where they were born. That is what’s called double punishment. A racist and unjust system that targets immigrants and refugees after they’ve already served their time. The APSC 4 are not just individuals. They are community leaders. As part of the Asian Prisoners Support Committee, an organization, which centers formerly incarcerated leadership, Peejay, Ke, Bun, and Maria provide reentry support. They mentor at risk youth and they lead workshops on the school to prison, to deportation pipeline. They are change-makers. They are caregivers. They are parents. They are our community. And despite everything that they’ve given and everything that they continue to do, they live in an immigration limbo. Under the threat of deportation by a system designed to disappear them. So we are calling on Governor Newsom to stop ICE from deporting the APSC4.
We are calling on Governor Newsom to grant them pardons. To learn more and take action, please visit bit.ly/APSC4.
That is B I T dot L Y slash APSC. You can sign a petition, write a letter and help us keep our people home. Please join us in the fight to keep APSC4 home. Thank you. Apex express is produced by Miko Lee, Paige Chung, Jalena Keane-Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar. Shekar, Anuj Vaidya, Kiki Rivera, Swati Rayasam, Nate Tan, Hien Nguyen, Nikki Chan, and Cheryl Truong
Cheryl Truong: Tonight’s show was produced by me, cheryl. Thanks to the team at KPFA for all of their support. And thank you for listening!
The post APEX Express – 3.27.25 – Trans Day of Visibility appeared first on KPFA.
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APEX Express – 3.20.25- Wong Kim Ark
20 mar· KPFA - APEX Express
A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.
Grace Lee Boggs said, “History is not the past. It is the stories we tell about the past. How we tell these stories – triumphantly or self-critically, metaphysically or dialectally – has a lot to do with whether we cut short or advance our evolution as human beings.” In our current chaotic time, it feels like we are intentionally ignoring history. Our lack of awareness feels like a de-evolution, as our education department is gutting, books are banned, and so many American institutions are at risk, it feels as though a critical analysis of history is being ignored. On Tonight’s APEX Express, Host Miko Lee focuses on Wong Kim Ark and the importance of Birthright Citizenship. She speaks with historian David Lei, Reverend Deb Lee and lawyer/educator Annie Lee and activist Nick Gee.
Discussed by Our Guests:
What You Can Do To Protect Birthright Citizenship
Our history is tied to the legacy of Wong Kim Ark and birthright citizenship, and it will take ongoing advocacy to protect this fundamental right. Here are four ways you can stay involved in the work ahead:

Invite a friend to attend an event as part of Chinese for Affirmative Action’s weeklong series commemorating Wong Kim Ark.
Take action and oppose Trump’s executive order banning birthright citizenship.
Learn about Wong Kim Ark and Trump’s executive order to end birthright citizenship.
Sign up to join Stop AAPI Hate’s Many Roots, One Home campaign to fight back against Trump’s anti-immigrant agenda.

How you can get engaged to protect immigrants:
https://www.im4humanintegrity.org/
https://www.bayresistance.org/

Bay Area Immigration: 24 Hour Hotlines

San Francisco
415-200-1548

Alameda County
510-241-4011

Santa Clara County
408-290-1144

Marin County
415-991-4545

San Mateo County
203-666-4472

Know Your Rights (in various Asian languages)
Thank you to our guests and Chinese for Affirmative Action for the clip from Wong Kim Ark’s great grandson Norman Wong

Show Transcript: Wong Kim Ark
Opening: [00:00:00] Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express.

Miko Lee: [00:00:35] Grace Lee Boggs said history is not the past. It is the stories we tell about the past, how we tell these stories. Triumphantly or self critically metaphysically or dialectically, has a lot to do with whether we cut short or advance our evolution as human beings. I. Well, in our current chaotic times, it feels like we are intentionally ignoring history. Our lack of awareness feels like a de-evolution. As our education department is gutted and books are banned, and so many of our American institutions are at risks, it feels as though a critical analysis of history is just being intentionally ignored. So welcome to Apex Express. I’m your host, Miko Lee, and tonight we’re gonna delve back into a moment of history that is very much relevant in our contemporary world. Tonight’s show is about long Kim Ark. There’s a famous black and white photo of a Chinese American man. His hair is pulled back with a large forehead on display, wide open eyes with eyebrows slightly raised, looking at the camera with an air of confidence and innocence. He is wearing a simple mandarin collared shirt, one frog button straining at his neck, and then two more near his right shoulder. The date stamp is November 15th, 1894. His name is Wong Kim Ark. Tonight we hear more about his story, why it is important, what birthright citizenship means, and what you could do to get involved. So stay tuned. Welcome, David Lei, former social worker, community activist, lifelong San Franciscan, and amazing community storyteller. Welcome to Apex Express.

David Lei: [00:02:21] Thank you, Miko.

Miko Lee: [00:02:23] Can you first start with a personal question and tell me who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?

David Lei: [00:02:31] I’m now on the board of Chinese Historical Society of America. Chinese American History is pretty important to me for my identity and the story of Chinese in America is American history, and that’s where I’m at now.

Miko Lee: [00:02:50] And what legacy do you carry with you from your ancestors?

David Lei: [00:02:56] To pass on the wisdom they pass to me to future descendants. But I’m here in America, so I know after a few generations, my descendants won’t look like me. Most likely they won’t speak Chinese. They’re going to be Americans. So. The lessons and values and wisdoms, my ancestors passed to me, I’m passing to America.

Miko Lee: [00:03:30] we are talking on this episode about Wong Kim Ark and as a community storyteller, I wonder if you can take me back to that time, take me back to Wong Kim Ark growing up in San Francisco, Chinatown, what was happening in San Francisco, Chinatown at that time

David Lei: [00:03:48] Okay, this is the end of the 19th century and we have the Exclusion Act in 1882 where Chinese were excluded from coming to America with few exceptions like merchants, diplomats, and scholars.
So if you’re Chinese and you’re a laborer you just can’t come. And there were concerns about. Going, even if you were here, there’s a process for your return, the documents you will need. But even that was iffy. But for Chinese in general, there was birthright citizenship. So if you were born here, you have citizenship and that because of the 14th amendment.
So many Chinese thought birthright citizenship was important ’cause you can vote, you have more rights, less chance that you will be deported. So the Chinese, born in America, right at 1895, formed a Chinese American Citizens Alliance. The concept of being a American citizen was in everybody’s mind in Chinatown at that time. The Chinese been fighting for this birthright citizenship ever since the Exclusion Act. Before Wong Kim Ark, there was Look Tin Sing in the matter regarding Look Tin Sing was a CA federal Court of Appeal case. Look Tin Sing was born in Mendocino, so he’s American born. He assumed he was a citizen. His parents sent him back to China before the Exclusion Act, and when he came back after the Exclusion Act, of course he didn’t have the paperwork that were required , but he was born here. So to prove that he was a citizen. He had to have a lawyer and had to have white witness, and it went to the federal Court of Appeal, ninth Circuit, and the Chinese sixth company. The City Hall for Chinatown knew this was important for all Chinese, so gave him a lawyer, Thomas Den, and he won the case. Then in 1888, this happened again with a guy named Hong Yin Ming. He was held and he had to go to the Federal Court of Appeal to win again, then Wong Kim Ark 1895. He was stopped and. This time, the Chinese six company, which is a city hall for Chinatown they really went all out. They hired two of the best lawyers money could buy. The former deputy Attorney General for the United States, one of which was the co-founder of the American Bar Association. So these were very expensive, influential lawyers. And because Wong Kim Ark was a young man under 25, he was a cook, so he was poor, but the community backed him. And went to the Supreme Court and won because it was a Supreme Court case. It took precedent over the two prior cases that only went to the Court of Appeal.

Now you might think, here’s a guy who has a Supreme Court case that says he’s an American citizen. Well, a few years later in 1901, Wong Kim Ark went to Mexico to Juarez. When he came back to El Paso the immigration stopped him at El Paso and says, no you are just a cook. you’re not allowed to come in because we have the 1882 Exclusion Act. Wong Kim Ark Says, I have a Supreme Court case saying I’m a US citizen, and the El Paso newspaper also had an article that very week saying they’re holding a US citizen who has a Supreme Court case in his favor saying that he is a US citizen. However, immigration still held him for four months in El Paso. I think just to hassle. To make it difficult. Then by 1910, Wong Kim Ark had a few sons in China that he wants to bring to the us so he arranged for his first son to come to America in 1910. His first son was held at Angel Island. Interrogated did not pass, so they deported his firstborn son. So he says, wow, this is my real son, and he can’t even get in. So this is dealing with immigration and the US laws and the racist laws is unending. Just because you win the Supreme Court case, that doesn’t mean you’re safe as we are seeing now. So it takes the community, takes a lot of effort. It takes money to hire the best lawyers. It takes strategizing. It takes someone to go to jail, habeas corpus case oftentimes to test the laws. And even when you win, it’s not forever. It’s constantly challenged. So I think that’s the message in the community. Chinese community had push back on this and have pushed for Birthright citizenship from the very beginning of the Exclusion Act.

Miko Lee: [00:09:48] Thank you so much for that. David. Can we go back a little bit and explain for our audience what the Six Companies meant to Chinatown?

David Lei: [00:09:57] From the very beginning, there were a lot of laws racist laws that were anti-Chinese, and the Chinese always felt they needed representation. Many of the Chinese did not speak English, did not understand the laws, so they formed the Chinese Six Companies. Officially known as the Chinese Consolidated Benevolent Association. most Chinese come from just the six districts from Guangdong Province. They’re like counties. However, in China, each counties most likely will have their own dialect. Unintelligible to the county next to them. They will have their own food ways, their own temples. almost like separate countries. So there were six major counties where the Chinese in America came from. So each county sent representatives to this central organization called the Chinese six companies, and they represented the Chinese in America initially in all of America. Then later on, different states set up their own Chinese Consolidated Benevolent Association, so they would tax their own membership or get their own membership to pay fees. They had in-house lawyers to negotiate with city government, state government, federal government, and they would raise the money. They were the GoFundMe of their days. Almost every month they were hiring lawyers to protect some Chinese, somewhere in America against unfair unjust laws. The Chinese six company was very important to the Chinese in America, and they were the first to really push back on the Chinese exclusion Act between 1882 and 1905. 105,000 Chinese in America after the exclusion Act sued a federal government more than 10,000 times. This is about 10% of the Chinese population in America, sued the federal government. I’m not including state government, counties nor municipalities. This is just the federal government. About 10% of the Chinese here sued and almost 30 of these went to the Federal Supreme Court, and it was the sixth company that organized many of these winning for all Americans and not just the Chinese right. To a public education. Even if you are an immigrant tape versus Hurley in 1885. Then we have the Yick Wo versus Hopkins case that gave equal protection under law for everyone. Now, the 14th Amendment does have this clause equal protection under law, but everybody thought that meant you had to write a law that was equal for everybody. But in the case of Yick Wo versus Hopkins, it was also important that the law is executed and administered equally for everyone.
That’s the first time where it was made very clear that equal protection under law also means the administration and the execution of the law. So that is the core of American Civil Rights and the Chinese won this case for all Americans. Of course, Wong Kim Ark.

The concept of political asylum, public law 29 was a Chinese case passed by Congress in 1921, and then we have Miranda Act. If you look into the Miranda Act, it was based on a Chinese case, 1924 Ziang Sun Wan versus the US two Chinese were accused of murder in Washington DC They were tortured, denied sleep. Denied food, denied attorneys, so they confessed. But when it came to trial. They said we didn’t do it, we confessed ’cause we were tortured and they won in the Supreme Court, but it was a Washington DC case only applicable to federal jurisdictions. So when Miranda came up, the Supreme Court said, well, we decided this in 1924, but now we’ll just make it applicable to state, county and municipality. And then of course, as recently as 1974 Chinese for affirmative action helped bring the Lao versus Nichols case. Where now is required to have bilingual education for immigrant students, if there are enough of them to form a class where they can be taught math, science, history in their original language. These and many more. The Chinese brought and won these cases for all Americans, but few people know this and we just don’t talk about it.

Miko Lee: [00:15:35] David, thank you so much for dropping all this knowledge on us. I did not know that the Miranda rights comes from Asian Americans. That’s powerful. Yes. And so many other cases. I’m wondering, you said that Chinese Americans and the six companies sued, did you say 10,000 times?

David Lei: [00:15:53] We have 10,000 individual cases. In many of these cases, the Chinese six company helped provide a lawyer or a vice.

Miko Lee: [00:16:03] And where did that come from? Where did that impetus, how did utilizing the legal system become so imbued in their organizing process?

David Lei: [00:16:14] Well, because it worked even with the exclusion act, during the exclusion period most Chinese. Got a lawyer to represent them, got in something like 80%. In many of the years, 80% of the Chinese that hire a lawyer to help them with the immigration process were omitted. So the Chinese knew the courts acted differently from politics. The Chinese did not have a vote. So had no power in the executive branch nor the legislative branch. But they knew if they hire good lawyers, they have power in the court. So regardless of whether their fellow Americans like them or not legally the Chinese had certain rights, and they made sure they received those rights. By organizing, hiring the best lawyers, and this was a strategy. suing slowed down after 1905 because the Chinese lost a important case called Ju Toy versus the us. The Supreme Court decided that since the Chinese sue so much, their courts of appeal were tied up with all these cases. So the Supreme Court says from now on, the Supreme Court will give up his rights to oversight on the executive branch when it comes to immigration because the Chinese sue too much. And that’s why today the executive branch. Has so much power when it comes to immigration, cause the court gave up the oversight rights in this ju toy versus the US in 1905. So if we go to the history of the law a lot of the legal policies we live in today, were. Pushback and push for by the Chinese, because the Chinese were the first group that were excluded denied these rights. but the Chinese were very organized one of the most organized group and push back. And that’s why we have all these laws that the Chinese won.

Miko Lee: [00:18:30] And in your deep knowledge of all this history of these many cases, what do you think about what is happening right now with all the conversations around birthright citizenship? Can you put that into a historical perspective?

David Lei: [00:18:44] So being an American. We always have to be on the guard for our rights. Who would’ve thought Roe v. Wade would be overturned? So all these things can be challenged. America’s attitude change. Civil disobedience, the Chinese are actually, we have on record the largest number of people practicing civil disobedience over a long period of time. In 1892, when the Exclusion Act, Chinese Exclusion Act had to be renewed, they added this. New requirement that every Chinese must carry a certificate of residency with their photo on it. Well, this is like a internal passport. No one had to have this internal passport, but they made the Chinese do it. So the Chinese six company. Says, no, this is not right. Only dogs need to carry a license around to identify. Itself and only criminals needs to register with a state. And we Chinese are not dogs and we’re not criminals, so we’re not going to do it ’cause no one else needs to do it. So the six company told all the Chinese 105,000 Chinese not to register. 97% refuse to register. In the meantime, the six companies sued the federal government again. Saying the Federal Go government cannot do this. The Chinese lost this case in the Supreme Court and everybody then had to register, but they didn’t register until two years later, 1894.
So they held. Held out for two years.

Miko Lee: [00:20:31] How many people was that?

David Lei: [00:20:32] About a hundred thousand. 97% of the 105,000 Chinese refused to do this. So if you look at these certificate of residencies that the Chinese were forced to carry. They were supposed to register in 1892. Almost all of them are 1894. Some of them in fact many of them are May, 1894, the last second that you can register before they start deporting you. So the Chinese. Also practiced civil disobedience and the largest incidents, a hundred thousand people for two years.

Miko Lee: [00:21:15] How did they communicate with each other about that?

David Lei: [00:21:18] The Chinese were very well connected through the six companies, their district association, their surname association oftentimes because of. The racism segregation, the Chinese were forced to live in Chinatowns or relied on their own network. To support each other. So there, there’s a lot of letter writing and a lot of institutions, and they kept in touch.That network was very powerful. In fact, the network to interpret a law for everybody interpret uh, any rules of business, and. Just how to conduct themselves in America. They have a lot of institutions doing that. We still have them in the 24 square blocks we call Chinatown. We have almost 300 organizations helping the immigrants. Chinese there with language, with how to do your taxes tutoring for their kids. Advice on schools paying their bills and so on. We have surnames associations, we have district associations, we have gills, we have fraternal organizations, and we certainly have a lot of nonprofits. So it’s very, very supportive community. And that’s always been the case.

Miko Lee: [00:22:42] I’m wondering what you feel like we can learn from those organizers today. A hundred thousand for civil disobedience. And we’re often portrayed as the model minority people just follow along. That’s a lot of people during that time. And what do you think we can learn today from those folks that organize for civil disobedience and the Chinese Exclusion Act?

David Lei: [00:23:03] It takes a community. One person can’t do it. You have to organize. You have to contribute. You have to hire the best lawyers, the very best. In fact, with the Yik Wo versus Hopkins case, the equal protection under law, the Chinese immediately raised 20,000 equivalent to half a million. It takes collective action. It takes money. You just have to support this to keep our rights.

Miko Lee: [00:23:29] And lastly, what would you like our audience to understand about Wong Kim Ark?

David Lei: [00:23:35] Well, Wong Kim Ark, he was just an average person, a working person that the immigration department made life miserable for him. Is very difficult to be an immigrant anytime, but today is even worse.
We have to have some empathy. He was the test case, but there were so many others. I mentioned Look Tin Sing, whose adult name is Look Tin Eli. We know a lot about Look Tin Eli and then this other Hong Yin Ming in 1888 before Wong Kim Ark and so generations of generations of immigrants. Have had a hard time with our immigration department. It’s just not a friendly thing we do here. And you know, we’re all descendants of immigrants unless you’re a Native American. Like I mentioned Look Tin Sing, who was the first case that I could find. For birthright citizenship. His mother was Native American, but Native American didn’t even get to be citizens until 1924. You know, that’s kind of really strange. But that was the case.

Miko Lee: [00:24:50] That’s very absurd in our world.

David Lei: [00:24:52] Yes, Chinatown is where it is today because of Look Tin Sing, his adult name, Look Tin Eli. He saved Chinatown after the earthquake. He’s the one that organized all the business people to rebuild Chinatown like a fantasy Chinese land Epcot center with all the pagoda roofs, and he’s the one that saved Chinatown. Without him and his Native American mother, we would’ve been moved to Hunter’s Point after the earthquake. He later on became president of the China Bank and also president of the China Mayo Steamship Line. So he was an important figure in Chinese American history, but he had to deal with immigration.

Miko Lee: [00:25:39] David Lei, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with us. I appreciate hearing this story and folks can find out when you are part of a panel discussion for Wong Kim Ark week, right?

David Lei: [00:25:50] Yes.

Miko Lee: [00:25:51] Great. We will be able to see you there. Thank you so much for being on Apex Express. Annie Lee, managing director of Policy at Chinese for affirmative action. Welcome to Apex Express.

Annie Lee: [00:26:01] Thank you so much for having me Miko.

Miko Lee: [00:26:02] I wanna just start with this, a personal question, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?

Annie Lee: [00:26:10] I am the daughter of monolingual working class Chinese immigrants. And so I would say my people hail from Southern China and were able to come to the United States where I was born and was allowed to thrive and call this place home. I do this work at Chinese for Affirmative Action on their behalf and for other folks like them.

Miko Lee: [00:26:31] Thanks Annie, Today we’re recording on March 17th, and I’m noting this because as we know, things are changing so quickly in this chaotic administration. By the time this airs on Thursday, things might change. So today’s March 17th. Can you as both an educator and a lawyer, give me a little bit of update on where birthright citizenship, where does it stand legally right now?

Annie Lee: [00:26:55] As an educator and a lawyer, I wanna situate us in where birthright citizenship lives in the law, which is in the 14th Amendment. So the 14th Amendment has a birthright citizenship clause, which is very clear, and it states that people who were born in the United States, in subject to the laws thereof are United States citizens. The reason. This clause was explicitly added into the 14th Amendment, was because of chattel slavery in the United States and how this country did not recognize the citizenship of enslaved African Americans for generations.
And so after the Civil War and the Union winning that war and the ends of slavery . We had to make African Americans citizens, they had to be full citizens in the eye of the law. And that is why we have the 14th Amendment. And that clause of the 14th Amendment was later litigated all the way to the Supreme Court by Wong Kim Ark, who was born in San Francisco, like me, two Chinese immigrant parents. When he left the United States, he went to China to visit his family. He tried to come back. They wouldn’t let him in. and he said, I am a citizen because I was born in the United States and this clause in your 14th amendment, our 14th amendment says that I’m a citizen. It went all the way to Supreme Court and the Supreme Court agreed with Wong Kim Ark. Does not matter your parents’ citizenship status. Everyone born in the United States is a US citizen, except for a very, very narrow set of exceptions for the kids of foreign diplomats that really is not worth getting into. Everyone is born. Everyone who’s born in the United States is a citizen. Okay? So then you all know from Trump’s executive order on day one of his second presidency that he is attempting to upends this very consistent piece of law, and he is using these fringe, outlandish legal arguments that we have never heard before and has never merited any discussion because it is just. Facially incorrect based on the law and all of the interpretation of the 14th amendment after that amendment was ratified. So he is using that to try to upend birthright citizenship. There have been a number of lawsuits. Over 10 lawsuits from impacted parties, from states and there have been three federal judges in Maryland, Washington State, and New Hampshire, who have issued nationwide injunctions to stop the executive order from taking effect. That means that despite what Trump says in his executive order. The birthright citizenship clause remains as it is. So any child born today in the United States is still a citizen. The problem we have is that despite what three judges now issuing a nationwide injunction, the Trump’s government has now sought assistance from the Supreme Court to consider his request to lift the nationwide pause on his executive order. So the justices, have requested filings from parties by early April, to determine whether or not a nationwide injunction is appropriate. This is extraordinary. This is not the way litigation works in the United States. Usually you let the cases proceed. In the normal process, which goes from a district court to an appeals court, and then eventually to the Supreme Court if it gets appealed all the way up to the Supreme Court. This is very different from the normal course of action and I think very troubling.

Miko Lee: [00:30:36] So can you talk a little bit about that? I know we constantly say in this administration it’s unprecedented, but talk about how there’s three different states that have actually filed this injunction. , how typical is that for then it or it to then go to the Supreme Court?

Annie Lee: [00:30:53] Just to clarify, it’s not three different states. It’s judges in three different states. In fact, more than many, many states, 18 more than 18 states. There have been two lawsuits related, brought by states one that California was a part of that had multiple states over 18 states as well as San Francisco and District of Columbia. Then there was another lawsuit brought by another set of states. and so many states are opposed to this, for different reasons. I find their complaints to be very, very compelling. Before I get into the fact that multiple judges have ruled against the Trump administration, I did want to explain that the reason states care about this is because birthright citizenship is not an immigration issue. Birthright citizenship is just a fundamental issue of impacting everyone, and I really want people to understand this. If you are white and born in the United States, you are a birthright citizen. If you are black and born in the United States, you are a birthright citizen. It is a fallacy to believe that birthright citizenship only impacts immigrants. That is not true. I am a mother and I gave birth to my second child last year, so I’ve been through this process. Every person who gives birth in the United States. You go to the hospital primarily, they talk to you after your child is born about how to get a social security card for your child. All you have to do is have your child’s birth certificate. That is how every state in this country processes citizenship and how the federal government processes citizenship. It is through a birth certificate, and that is all you need. So you go to your health department in your city, you get the birth certificate, you tell, then you get your social security card. That is how everyone does it. If you change this process, it will impact every state in this country and it will be very, very cumbersome. Which is why all of these states, attorneys general, are up in arms about changing birthright citizenship. It is just the way we function. That again applies to re regardless of your parents’ immigration status.
This is an issue that impacts every single American. Now, to your question as to what does it mean if multiple judges in different states, in different federal district courts have all ruled against. Donald Trump, I think it really means that the law is clear. You have judges who ha are Reagan appointees saying that the birthright citizenship clause of the 14th amendment is crystal clear. It has, it is clear in terms of the text. If you are a textualist and you read exactly what the text says, if you believe in the context of, The 14th Amendment. If you look at the judicial history and just how this clause has been interpreted since ratification, like everything is consistent, this is not an area of law that has any gray area. And you see that because different judges in different district courts in Maryland, in Washington, in New Hampshire all have cited against Donald Trump.

Miko Lee: [00:33:54] So what is the intention of going to the Supreme Court?

Annie Lee: [00:33:59] I mean, he is trying to forum shop. He’s trying to get a court that he believes will favor his interpretation and that is why the right has spent the last half century stacking federal courts. And that is why Mitch McConnell did not let Barack Obama replace Antonin Scalia. The composition of the Supreme Court is. So, so important, and you can see it at times like this.

Miko Lee: [00:34:28] But so many of the conservatives always talk about being constitutionalists, like really standing for the Constitution. So how do those things line up?

Annie Lee: [00:34:38] Oh, Miko, that’s a great question. Indeed, yes, if they were the textualist that they say they are, this is a pretty clear case, but, Law is not as cut and dry as people think it is. It is obviously motivated by politics and that means law is subject to interpretation.

Miko Lee: [00:34:59] Annie, thank you so much for this breakdown. Are there any things that you would ask? Are people that are listening to this, how can they get involved? What can they do?

Annie Lee: [00:35:09] I would recommend folks check out StopAAPIHate. We are having monthly town halls as well as weekly videos to help break down what is happening. There’s so much news and misinformation out there but we are trying to explain everything to everyone because these anti-immigration. Policies that are coming out be, this is anti-Asian hate and people should know that. You can also check out resources through Chinese for affirmative action. Our website has local resources for those of you who are in the Bay Area, including the rapid response lines for bay Area counties if you need any services, if you. See ICE. , if you want to know where their ICE is in any particular location, please call your rapid response line and ask them for that verifiable information. Thank you.

Miko Lee: [00:36:00] Thank you so much, Annie Lee for joining us today on Apex.

Ayame Keane-Lee: [00:36:04] You are listening to 94.1 KPFA and 89.3 KPFB in Berkeley, 88.1 KFCF in Fresno, 97.5 K248BR in Santa Cruz, 94.3 K232FZ in Monterey, and online worldwide at kpfa.org.

Miko Lee: [00:36:23] Welcome, Nicholas Gee from Chinese for affirmative action. Welcome to Apex Express.

Nicholas Gee: [00:36:29] Thanks so much, Miko. Glad to be here.

Miko Lee: [00:36:31] I’m so glad that you could join us on the fly. I wanted to first just start by asking you a personal question, which is for you to tell me who you are,, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you.

Nicholas Gee: [00:36:46] I’ll start off by saying Miko, thanks so much for having me. My name is Nicholas Gee and I am a third and or fourth generation Chinese American, born and raised in Houston, Texas. And for me, what that means is, is that my great-great-grandparents and great-grandparents migrated from Southern China, fleeing war and famine and looking for opportunity in the middle of the early, like 19 hundreds. And they wanted to start an opportunity here for future generations like me. My people are my family who migrated here over a hundred years ago. who were settling to start a new life. My people are also the people that I advocate with, the Language Access network of San Francisco, the Immigrant Parent Voting Collaborative, my colleagues at Chinese for affirmative action and stop AAPI hate. I think about my people as the people that I’m advocating with on the ground day to day asking and demanding for change.

Miko Lee: [00:37:41] Thank you. And what legacy do you carry with you?

Nicholas Gee: [00:37:45] I carry the legacy of my elders, particularly my grandparents who immigrated here in around the 1940s or so. And when I think about their legacy, I think a lot about the legacy of immigration, what it means to be here, what it means to belong, and the fight for advocacy and the work that I do today.

Miko Lee: [00:38:05] Thanks so much, Nick, and we’re here doing this show all about Wong Kim Ark, and I know Chinese for affirmative action has planned this whole week-long celebration to bring up as we’re talking about legacy, the legacy of Wong Kim Ark. Can you talk about how this one week celebration came to be and what folks can expect?

Nicholas Gee: [00:38:26] Yeah. As folks may know we are in the midst of many executive orders that have been in place and one of them being the executive order to end birthright citizenship. And Wong Kim Ark was actually born and raised in San Francisco’s Chinatown, particularly on seven. 51 Sacramento Street. In the heart of the community and local partners here in this city, we’re really trying to figure out how do we advocate and protect birthright citizenship? How do we bring momentum to tell the story of Wong Kim Ark in a moment when birthright citizenship is, in the process of being removed And so we really wanted to create some momentum around the storytelling, around the legacy of Wong Kim Ark, but also the legal implications and what it means for us to advocate and protect for birthright citizenship. And so I joined a couple of our local partners and particularly our team at Chinese for affirmative action to develop and create the first ever Wong Kim Ark Week. Officially known as born in the USA and the Fight for Citizenship, a week long series of events, specifically to honor the 127th anniversary of the Landmark Supreme Court case, US versus Wong Kim Ark, which affirmed birthright citizenship for all in the United States.

Miko Lee: [00:39:44] What will happen during this week-long celebration?

Nicholas Gee: [00:39:48] We have several scheduled events to raise awareness, mobilize the community, and really to stand up for the rights of all immigrants and their families. One is an incredible book Talk in conversation with author and activist Bianca Boutte. Louie, who recently authored a book called Unassimilable. And she tells a personal narrative and provides a sharp analysis for us to think about race and belonging and solidarity in America, particularly through an Asian American lens. This event is hosted by the Chinese Historical Society of America. Following. We have a live in-person community symposium on Wong Kim Ark legacy and the struggle for citizenship. There’ll be a powerful community conversation with legal advocates, storytellers, movement builders, to have a dynamic conversation on the impact of birthright citizenship. Who is Wong Kim Ark? What is his enduring legacy and how people can join us for the ongoing struggle for justice? And you know, we actually have a special guest, Norman Wong, who is the great grandson of Wong Kim Ark. He’ll be joining us for this special event. We have a couple of more events. One is a Chinatown History and Art Tour hosted by Chinese Culture Center, this is a small group experience where community members can explore Chinatown’s vibrant history, art, and activism, and particularly we’ll learn about the legacy of Wong Kim Ark and then lastly, we have a in-person press conference that’s happening on Friday, which is we’re gonna conclude the whole week of, Wong Kim Ark with a birthright, citizenship resolution and a Wong Kim Ark dedication. And so we’ll be celebrating his enduring impact on Birthright citizenship and really these ongoing efforts to protect, our fundamental right. and the San Francisco Public Library is actually hosting an Asian American and Pacific Islander book display at the North Beach campus and they’ll be highlighting various books and authors and titles inspired by themes of migration, community, and resilience. So those are our scheduled, events We’re welcoming folks to join and folks can register, and check out more information at casf.org/WongKimArk

Miko Lee: [00:42:04] Thanks so much and we will post a link to that in our show notes. I’m wondering how many of those are in Chinese as well as English?

Nicholas Gee: [00:42:13] That is a fantastic question, Miko. We currently have the community symposium on Wong Kim Ark legacy in the struggle for citizenship. This event will have live interpretation in both Mandarin and Cantonese.

Miko Lee: [00:42:46] What would you like folks to walk away with? An understanding of what.

Nicholas Gee: [00:42:30] We really want people to continue to learn about the legacy of birthright citizenship and to become an advocate with us. We also have some information on our website, around what you can do to protect birthright citizenship. As an advocate, we are always thinking about how do we get people involved, to think about civic engagement intentional education and to tie that back to our advocacy. And so we have a couple of ways that we’re inviting people to take action with us. One is to invite a friend to consider attending one of our events. If you’re based here in the San Francisco Bay area or if you’re online, join us for the book Talk with Bianca. , two, we’re inviting folks to take action and oppose the executive order to ban birthright citizenship. Chinese for affirmative action has. A call to action where we can actually send a letter to petition , to oppose this executive order to send a message directly to our congressman or woman. and lastly, you know, we’re asking people to learn about Wong Kim Ark as a whole, and to learn about the impacts of birthright citizenship. My hope is that folks walk away with more of an understanding of what does it mean here to be an advocate? What does it mean to take action across the community and really to communicate this is what resilience will look like in our community

Miko Lee: [00:43:44] Nick Gee, thank you so much for joining me on Apex Express. It was great to hear how people can get involved in the Wong Kim Ark week and learn more about actions and how they can get involved. We appreciate the work you’re doing.

Nicholas Gee: [00:43:56] Thanks so much Miko, and I’m excited to launch this.

Miko Lee: [00:43:58] Welcome, Reverend Deb Lee, executive Director of Interfaith Movement for Human Integrity and part of the Network on Religion and justice. Thank you so much for coming on Apex Express.

Rev. Deb Lee: [00:44:09] Great to be here. Miko.

Miko Lee: [00:44:11] I would love you just personally to tell me who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?

Rev. Deb Lee: [00:44:17] Wow. Well, my people are people in the Chinese diaspora. My family’s been in diaspora for seven generations, from southern China to southeast to Asia. and then eventually to the United States. What I carry with me is just a huge sense of resistance and this idea of like, we can survive anywhere and we take our love and our family and our ancestor we gotta carry it with us. We don’t always have land or a place to put it down into the ground, and so we carry those things with us. , that sense of resistance and resilience.

Miko Lee: [00:44:56] Thank you so much. I relate to that so much as a fifth generation Chinese American. To me, it’s really that sense of resilience is so deep and powerful, and I’m wondering as a person from the faith community, if you could share about the relevance of Wong Kim Ark and Birthright citizenship.

Rev. Deb Lee: [00:45:12] Yeah, Wong Kim Ark is critical because he was somebody who really fought back against racist laws and really asserted his right to be part of this country, his right to have the Constitution apply to him too. I’m just so grateful for him and so many of the other Chinese Americans who fought back legally and resisted against in that huge wave of period of Chinese exclusion to create some of the really important immigration laws that we have today. I wouldn’t be a citizen without birthright citizenship myself. Wong Kim Ark really established that every person who is born on this soil has a right to constitutional protection, has a right to be a citizen. And in fact, the Constitution in the 14th Amendment also applies to let equal treatment for everyone here, everyone who is here. You don’t even have to be a citizen for the constitutional rights. And the Fourth Amendment, the fifth Amendment, the first amendment to apply to you. And those things are so under attack right now. It’s so important to establish the equality. Of every person and the right for people here in this country to have safety and belonging, that everyone here deserves safety and belonging.

Miko Lee: [00:46:24] Thank you so much for lifting up that activist history. as, a person who was raised in a theological setting at a seminary, I was really raised around this ethos of love as an active tool and a way of fighting for civil rights, fighting for things that we believe in. And I’m wondering if you could talk about how you see that playing out in today. And especially as you know, this Trump regime has had such incredible impacts on immigrants and on so much of our activist history. I’m wondering if you have thoughts on that?

Rev. Deb Lee: [00:47:00] Well, so much of the civil rights history in this country, you know, going back to like the activism of Chinese Americans to establish some of those civil rights. You know, it goes back to this idea of like, who is fully human, who can be fully human, whose humanity will be fully recognized? And so I think that’s what’s connects back to my faith and connects back to faith values of the sacredness of every person, the full humanity, the full participation, the dignity. And so I think, Wong Kim Ark and the other, like Chinese American activists, they were fighting for like, you know, we don’t wanna just be, we’re gonna just gonna be laborers. We’re not just going to be people who you can, Bring in and kick out whenever you want, but like, we want to be fully human and in this context of this nation state, that means being fully citizens.And so I think that that struggle and that striving to say we want that full humanity to be recognized, that is a fundamental kind of belief for many faith traditions, which, you know, speak to the radical equality of all people and the radical dignity of all people, that can’t be taken away, but that has to really be recognized. What’s under attack right now is. So much dehumanization, stigmatization of people, you know, based on race, based on class, based on gender, based on what country people were born in, what papers they carry, you know, if they ever had contact, prior contact with the law, like all these things. You know, are immediately being used to disregard someone’s humanity. And so I think those of us who come from a faith tradition or who just share that kind of sense of, value and, deep humanism in other people, that’s where we have to root ourselves in this time in history and really being, you know, we are going to defend one another’s humanity and dignity, at all costs.

Miko Lee: [00:48:55] Thank you for that. I’m wondering if there are other lessons that we can learn from Wong Kim Ark, I mean, the time when he fought back against, this was so early in 1894, as you mentioned, the Chinese exclusion acts and I’m wondering if there are other lessons that we can learn from him in, in our time when we are seeing so many of our rights being eroded.

Rev. Deb Lee: [00:49:17] I think that there’s so many ways, that we think about how did people organize then like, you know, it’s challenging to organize now, but if you can imagine organizing then, and I’m thinking, you know, when Chinese people were required to carry identification papers and you know, on mass they refused to do that and they. Practice, like a form of civil disobedience. And I think we’re at this time now, like the Trump administration’s telling anybody here who’s unauthorized to come forward and to register well, I think people need to think twice about that. And people are, there are many other things that they’re trying to impose on the immigrant community and I think one like lesson is like, how do people survive through a period of exclusion and we are today in a period of exclusion. That really goes back to the mid 1980s, when there was, last, a significant immigration reform that created a pathway to citizenship. Only for about 3 million people. But after that, since that time in the mid 1980s, there has been no other pathways to citizenship, no other forms of amnesty, no other ways for people to fix their status.So in fact, we are already in another 40 year period of exclusion again. And so one of those lessons is how do people survive this period? Like right, and left. They’re taking away all the laws and protections that we had in our immigration system. They were very narrow already. Now even those are being eliminated and any form of compassion or discretion or leniency or understanding has been removed. So I think people are in a period of. Survival. How do we survive and get through? And a lot of the work that we’re doing on sanctuary right now we have a sanctuary people campaign, a sanctuary congregations campaign is how do we walk alongside immigrants to whom there is no path. There is no right way. there is no opening right now. But walk with them and help support them because right now they’re trying to squeeze people so badly that they will self deport. And leave on their own. This is part of a process of mass expulsion but if people really believe that they want to stay and be here, how do we help support people to get through this period of exclusion until there will be another opening? And I believe there will be like our, our history kind of spirals in and out, and sometimes there are these openings and that’s something I take from the faith communities. If you look at Chinese American history in this country, the role that faith communities played in walking with the immigrant community and in supporting them, and there’s many stories that help people get through that period of exclusion as well.

Miko Lee: [00:51:52] Deb, I’m wondering what you would say to folks. I’m hearing from so many people [say] I can’t read the news. It’s too overwhelming. I don’t wanna get involved. I just have to take care of myself. And so I’m just waiting. And even James Carville, the political opponent, say we gotta play dead for a few years. What are your thoughts on this?

Rev. Deb Lee: [00:52:11] Well, we can’t play totally dead. I wish the Democrats wouldn’t be playing dead, but I think that a person of faith, we have to stay present we don’t really have the option to check out and we actually have to be in tune with the suffering. I think it would be irresponsible for us to. You know, turn a blind eye to the suffering. And I wanna encourage people that actually opportunities to walk with people who are being impacted and suffering can actually be deeply, fulfilling and can help give hope and give meaning. And there are people who are looking for solidarity right now. We are getting a lot of calls every week for someone who just wants them, wants someone to go to their court or go to the ice, check-in with them, and literally just like walk three blocks down there with them and wait for them. To make sure they come out. And if they don’t come out to call the rapid response hotline, it doesn’t take much. But it’s a huge act like this is actually what some of the immigrant communities are asking for, who are millions of people who are under surveillance right now and have to report in. So those small acts of kindness can be deeply rewarding in this. Sea of overwhelming cruelty. And I think we have an obligation to find something that we can do. , find a way, find a person, find someone that we can connect to support and be in solidarity with and think about people in our past. Who have accompanied us or accompanied our people and our people’s journey. And when those acts of kindness and those acts of neighbors and acts of friendship have meant so much I know like my family, they still tell those stories of like, this one person, you know, in Ohio who welcome them and said hello. We don’t even know their names. Those acts can be etched in people’s hearts and souls. And right now people need us.

Miko Lee: [00:53:59] Oh, I love that. I’ve talked with many survivors of the Japanese American concentration camps, and so many of them talk about the people of conscience, meaning the people that were able to step up and help support them during, before and after that time. Lastly, I’m wondering, you’re naming some really specific ways that people can get engaged, and I know you’re deeply involved in the sanctuary movement. Can you provide us with ways that people can find out more? More ways to get involved in some of the work that you are doing.

Rev. Deb Lee: [00:54:29] I’ll put a plug in for our website. It’s www dot I am number four, human integrity.org. So it’s, iam4humanintegrity.org. We work with families that are impacted facing deportation, looking for all kinds of ways to get the community to rally around folks and support and we work with faith communities who are thinking about how to become sanctuary congregations and how to be an important resource in your local community. The other organizations, I would say sign up for Bay Resistance. They’re organizing a lot of volunteers that we call on all the time we’re working with. We’re, you know, working with many organizations, the Bay Area, to make sure that a new ice detention facility does not get built. They are looking at the potential site of Dublin. We’ve worked really hard the last decade to get all the detention centers out of Northern California. We don’t want them to open up a new one here.

Miko Lee: [00:55:27] Deb Lee, thank you so much for joining us on Apex Express and folks can actually see Deb on Tuesday night in Wong Kim Ark Week as one of the speakers. Thank you so much for joining us.

Rev. Deb Lee: [00:55:38] Thank you, Miko.

Miko Lee: [00:55:39] Thank you so much for joining us on Apex Express. We’re gonna close this episode with words from Norman Wong, the great grandson of Wong Kim Ark.

Norman Wong: [00:55:49] So let’s fight back. Threats to birthright citizenship will only divide us, and right now we need to come together to continue the impact of my great grandfather’s. This is my family’s legacy, and now it’s part of yours too. Thank you

Miko Lee: [00:56:11] Please check out our website, kpfa.org to find out more about our show tonight. We think all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. Apex Express is created by Miko Lee, Jalena Keane-Lee, Preti Mangala-Shekar, Swati Rayasam, Aisa Villarosa, Estella Owoimaha-Church, Gabriel Tanglao, Cheryl Truong and Ayame Keane-Lee.

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APEX Express – March 13, 2025
13 mar· KPFA - APEX Express
A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.
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Special Winter Fund Drive Programming: Richard Wolff
6 mar· KPFA - APEX Express
Today’s episode of APEX Express is preempted by special programming for KPFA’s 2025 Winter Fund Drive: Mitch Jeserich talks with economist Richard Wolff.
To support our mission and receive Professor Wolff’s book Understanding Capitalism as a thank-you gift, please donate here or call (800) 439-5732.

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Special Winter Fund Drive Programming
27 feb· KPFA - APEX Express
Today’s episode of APEX Express is preempted by special programming for KPFA’s 2025 Winter Fund Drive.
To support our mission, please donate here or call (800) 439-5732.

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Special Winter Fund Drive Programming
20 feb· KPFA - APEX Express
Today’s episode of APEX Express is preempted by special programming for KPFA’s 2025 Winter Fund Drive.
To support our mission, please donate here or call (800) 439-5732.

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Episodi

APEX Express – 7.3.25 – Haibayo

APEX Express – 6.26.25-Deport. Exclude. Revoke. Imprison – Wong Kim Ark is for All of Us

APEX Express – 6.19.25 We Are All Connected

APEX Express – 6.12.25 Obbligato

APEX Express – June 5, 2025

APEX Express – 5.29.25 AAPI Children’s Books

Special Spring Fund Drive Programming: Josh Jackson on California’s Little-Known Public Wilderness

Special Spring Fund Drive Programming: Norma Wong on a Zen and Indigenous Perspective

Special Spring Fund Drive Programming: Richard Walker on the Role of Industry in Building Cities

APEX Express – 5.1.25 – Filmmakers Exploring Boundaries

APEX Express – April 24, 2025

APEX Express – April 17, 2025 – When the Lotus Blooms

APEX Express – April 10, 2025

APEX Express – 4. 3.25 – Coming Up Next

APEX Express – 3.27.25 – Trans Day of Visibility

APEX Express – 3.20.25- Wong Kim Ark

APEX Express – March 13, 2025

Special Winter Fund Drive Programming: Richard Wolff

Special Winter Fund Drive Programming

Special Winter Fund Drive Programming