Episodi
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Kate Hayes EchoingGreen- Board Health
Back for another conversation this time with a very inspiring woman, Kate Hayes of Echoing Green. Kate discusses her incredibly interesting journey and love for health human interactions and support. She is a current leader in the impact investing and social enterprise development space.
For the full transcript click below Read Full TranscriptWelcome, welcome, welcome, to the Bonfires of Social Enterprise. Romy here back for another conversation with a very inspiring woman, Kate Hayes of Echoing Green. Kate discusses her incredibly interesting journey and love for health human interactions and support.
First, letās see what Natalie has prepared for our Fun Fuel for this episode.
Iām Natalie Hazen and I am bringing you this episodeās Fun Fuel
Leadership takes all kinds of forms and has many different styles. After all, we are all uniquely made and donāt respond the same way to things.
Letās take a listen to some top leaderās motivational quotes of all time according to Inc. Magazine because according to them, āSometimes the most powerful and meaningful things come from words that touch our heart and lead us forward to our potential.ā
So Author Ernest Hemingway kicks us off with his quote: "When people talk, listen completely." --Ernest Hemingway
I need to work on that one myself!
Retired four-star general in the United States... -
Episodi mancanti?
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Genusee
Wow, what a really great episode on a social enterprise called Genusee. Creatively designing eyewear out of recycled single-use plastic water bottles out of Flint, Michigan. Many of you may have heard some tough stories coming out of Flint. Specific to the water crisis over these past few years. You will meet the founders and designers, Ali Rose Van Overbeke and Jack Burns. They will discuss their journey in Flint and the whole launch process to date.
For the full transcript click below Read Full TranscriptWelcome to episode 97 of the Bonfires of Social Enterprise. This is Romy, and I am your host for this episode on a really great social enterprise called Genusee. They are out of Flint, Michigan. Many of you may have heard some tough stories coming out of Flint, Michigan specific to the water crisis over these past few years. You will meet the founders and designers, Ali Rose Van Overbeke and Jack Burns. They discuss their journey in Flint and the whole launch process to date.
Oh, it feels good to be back after a mini-hiatus. Thanks for hanging in there while we made some new shows!
By the way, we have some great episodes coming up next from the east and west coasts culminating with a finale for Season 3 and our episode 100 which will be some interviews from the recent GUS awards held in Detroit.
So subscribe and stay tuned.
Now, letās see what Natalie has in store for us on the Fun Fuel. What do you have for us, Natalie?
Iām Natalie Hazen and I am bringing you this episodeās Fun Fuel.
In todayās world, you see so many people wearing eyeglasses and on a super bright sunny day they most certainly break out their sunglasses. Glasses have become ultra-fashionable and why shouldnāt they? They most certainly are the very first thing people see when they look at your face unless they arenāt wearing theirs and they just canāt see you.
According to the website lenspick.com, the first vision correction device was invented in 1000 AD and called a reading stone. As you can imagine, it was for farsighted folk who couldnāt read properly and was basically a glass sphere used as a magnifying glass.
Now fast forward to 12th century China and you have the creation of Sunglasses. People back then used flat crystals of smoky quartz that were mounted for personal use to reduce the glare from the sun.
It is also said that these āsunglassesā were used by judges while presiding cases, so as not to give away their emotions. Very interesting.
So, throughout history, mankind has made some very unique and purposeful inventions, including eyeglasses, that truly make our lives easier.
Thanks for listening and now on to the episode.
Fascinating that the first pair of eyeglasses was documented to be in 1000 AD. Thank you, Natalie, your fun fuels are always so interesting!
Letās jump on in for a listen now to my conversation with Ali Rose Van Overbeke and Jack Burns and their really great company, Genusee.
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Dr. Paul Thomas with Plum Health DPC
Weāre back with another episode here on social enterprise. We have a doctor on this show who has been making a big impact in Detroit. It is Dr. Paul Thomas of Plum Health Care DPC. He has a dream of changing the notion of health care from a plastic card in your wallet to true healing from a healing doctor! What a concept!
For the full transcript click below Read Full TranscriptHi Everyone, this is Romy, and weāre back with another episode here on social enterprise. We have a doctor on this show who has been making a big impact in Detroit. It is Dr. Paul Thomas of Plum Health Care DPC. He has a dream of changing the notion of health care from a plastic card in your wallet to true healing from a healing doctor! What a concept!
Before we get going here, I want to give a big hello and thanks to our listeners in Japan, we appreciate you!
Now, letās see what Natalie has today for us on the Fun Fuelā¦.
Iām Natalie Hazen and I am bringing you this episodeās Fun Fuel.The Medicine Ball isnāt usually the hottest topic of conversation.
If you like to exercise and are a gym goer, you may incorporate the medicine ball into your routine. Or perhaps this little dynamo isnāt a part of your repertoire and you pass by, leaving it sitting on the rack wondering what to do with it.
While there are many ways to use the medicine ball in strength training, according to the website, azcentral.com,
One of the early uses of medicine balls was around 1,000 B.C. where Persian soldiers used round bladders filled with sand as part of their resistance training.
Later on, Navy doctors would tell... -
PalmEraMia
Thanks for tuning in for this great episode on a social enterprise out of Miami! Our guest is Andres Restrepo, one of the founders of PalmEraMia, which is a fashion design company for athletic wear. Through their product sales, they support clean water efforts in Colombia. We learn why they chose Colombia and how they became so convicted about clean water for those without access. Stay tuned until the end of the show because we have our first Spanish rapper as our closing song on this episode.
For the full transcript click below Read Full TranscriptThanks for tuning in for this great episode on a social enterprise out of Miami! This is Romy, and I am honored to be your host. Our guest is Andres Restrepo, one of the founders of PalmEraMia, which is a fashion design company for athletic wear. Through their product sales, they support clean water efforts in Colombia. We learn why they chose Colombia and how they became so convicted about clean water for those without access. We have our first Spanish rapper as our closing song on this episode.
I want to take a moment to thank our listeners. Our team has grown over here at the Bonfires of Social Enterprise, and it is really about you, as our listeners, continuing to tune in. Thank you, thank you, thank you. By the way, donāt be shy! Reach out to us! Hit us up on Twitter, Facebook, or Instagram which are all at bonfires podcast or you can jump to the website and email us or put a note in the mailbag. The website is www.bonfiresofsocialenterprise.com We respond quickly, and we love to talk to you!
So, back to our topic of business and social good. I think Natalie has something about water for us in our Fun Fuelā¦ā¦Iām Natalie Hazen and I am bringing you this episodesā Fun Fuel.
Many people have taken to the longstanding sport of surfing, riding amazing ocean waves. But did you know that you can surf the Great Lakes?
Now it is different than surfing in the ocean, mainly because nothing will eat you in the great lakes which to me is a huge bonus! According to Third Coast Surf Shops website,
Waves on the great lakes are caused by the transfer of energy from the wind... -
Kathleen Kelly Janus
Back for another episode of the Bonfires of Social Enterprise. Kathleen Kelly Janus is our guest discussing her new book, Social Startup Success, How the Best Nonprofits Launch, Scale Up and Make a Difference. Kathleen is an award-winning social entrepreneur, lawyer, and lecturer at Stanford University, where she teaches social entrepreneurship. And, as usual, we have a great Detroit artist playing a full song at the end of the episode so stay tuned.
For the full transcript click below Read Full TranscriptHello there, this is Romy back for another episode on the Bonfires of Social Enterprise. We have author, Kathleen Kelly Janus, as our guest discussing her new book, Social Startup Success, How the Best Nonprofits Launch, Scale Up and Make a Difference. Kathleen is an award-winning social entrepreneur, lawyer, and lecturer at Stanford University, where she teaches social entrepreneurship. And, as usual, we have a great Detroit artist playing a full song at the end of the episode so stay tuned.
Before we get rolling down the lane with good advice from Kathleen, letās see what Natalie has come up with for our Fun Fuel for this episode.
Iām Natalie Hazen and I am bringing you this episodeās Fun Fuel.
Since this episode talks about Non-profits not operating on survival mode, I started thinking about what survival mode really means and I my mind drifted to cool animal survival instincts.
Survival instincts are inherent to all creatures great and small. I often wonder how animals survive natural disasters such as wildfires and tornados. I think of the birds being whipped around by such high... -
Our Common Future Conference – Oct. 27, 2017 Part Two
Our Common Future conference was held in Detroit, Michigan at the end of October 2017. We have a Part One and a Part Two to give you the top ten. We will interview several guest speakers that help shape our community. They give us some insight into the work that they do to empower entrepreneurship and Impact Investing.
For the full transcript click below Read Full TranscriptWelcome Back to the Bonfires of Social Enterprise. On this episode, we continue with part two of the Our Common Futures conference. On this episode, Jennifer and Natalie, catch up with conference attendees Melanie Audette with the Mission Investors Exchange, Brenda Hunt with the Battle Creek Community Foundation, Amy Peterson of Rebel Nell, David Contorer with Hebrew Free Loans, and Jason Paulateer with PNC Bank and Foundation.
To kick of Part Two, Jennifer sits down with Melanie Audette of the Mission Investors Exchangeā¦..Jennifer: What I'd like to start off today, during our talk is to have you tell me a little bit about yourself and your organization and then we'll go from there.
Melanie: Well, I'm the Senior Vice President at Mission Investor's Exchange. I am based in Seattle and Mission Investor's Exchange is a 12 year old organization with offices in New York and San Francisco and then we have some staff in Seattle, but we're a very small but mighty team that has a membership consisting of mainly foundations of all types and sizes across the US who are either building or expanding an impact investing program. And we started out as the PRI Makers Network 12 years ago, when foundations were really focused mainly on doing program-related investments, and about five years ago we merged with The More Formation Campaign, which was a campaign to encourage foundations to devote two percent of their endowments to invest for a mission.
Jennifer: I love that. So here at the conference so far, what are your impressions then of how it works and how it applies to your mission through Mission Investor's Exchange?
Melanie: Well the independent sector conference as well as the Council of Michigan Foundation's Conference, where we are today, represents two things for me specifically. First, the independent sector has a very much more broad attendance and participation than a lot of the conferences that we attend and that includes the foundations who are at the heart of our network, but also those who play a very important role in the ecosystem around impact investing. And that includes non-profit organizations who oftentimes have social entrepreneurial goals and projects and so, therefore can be investees of impact investment's five foundations as well as those who support them in the field, so investment advisors, philanthropic advisors, attorneys, and accountants. All of those participants really play an incredibly important part helping foundations to identify who investees can be and to be able to do the work efficiently and within the law and correctly and responsibly.
The second...
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Our Common Future Conference – Oct. 27, 2017 Part One
Our Common Future conference was held in Detroit, Michigan at the end of October 2017. We have a Part One and a Part Two to give you the top ten. We will interview several guest speakers that help shape our community. They give us some insight into the work that they do to empower entrepreneurship and Impact Investing.
For the full transcript click below Read Full TranscriptWelcome to the Bonfires of Social Enterprise. This is Romy, and we have something very special for you on this episode. Our Bonfires team was invited to podcast from the Our Common Futures conference which was held in Detroit at the end of October 2017. I was not able to attend but two of our very experienced colleagues, Jennifer Davis-Papa and Natalie Hazen, caught up with some very high profile attendees and speakers at the conference. They came back with so many great discussions that we had to do a Part 1 and a Part 2 to give you the top ten.
So, on Part 1, you will hear interviews with Dan Cardinali, President, and CEO of Independent Sector, Joyce Cade-Hitchye from the organization, Of Impact, Angela Barbash from the financial firm, Revalue Aaron Seybert of Kresge, and Angela Rogensues of the non-profit, Playworks.
Letās get started with Dan Cardinelli of Independent Sector. He begins by answering Natalie with some organization history.Dan Cardinali: Well, first of all, Independent Sector is a 38-year-old organization that is founded with two very simple principles; that our goal is to bring the sector, the whole sector together. Grant seeking, foundations, corporate foundations, and ... Excuse me. Can I start that again?
Natalie: Mm-hmm.
Dan Cardinali: Independent Sector was founded 38 years ago with two very simple purposes; to bring the sector together, sector spanning, so we have grant seeking organizations, nonprofits, and grant-making organizations like philanthropy and corporate foundations.
The goal of this gathering is for the community to come together in a non-transactional way. Not to cut deals, but to collectively take stock in what's going well and what's not, and how we as a sector can come together, catalyze activity, and be part of accelerating social change. That's what Independent Sector does.
And then we learn from that conversation, and we translate that into our public policy work. Primarily in Washington, but increasingly we partner with state organizations to make sure we're aligned with the policies that are really going to strengthen the sector.
Every year we gather, historically every year we gather the sector together in this vital meeting ground, this conference. We realize collaboration is the way of the future. Early on as were designing for this, we said, "Look, who are the strongest sector spanning organizations we can partner with." The Council of Michigan Foundations is one of the strongest state level, regional association working in philanthropy. The Michigan Nonprofit Association is a similar; it's one of the...
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Because of a Case
Hear from Jamie and Sean Strasberger talking about their business, Because of a Case. Because of a Case is a mobile phone case design company contributing to our favorite special causes. And, of course, we have a great song at the end by a Detroit artist for your listening pleasure.
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Douglas Bitonti Stewart
Today we head over to the Impact Investing Inglenook to chat with Douglas Bitonti Stewart about his recent article titled āImpact Investing and the Development Professional: Learning to Ride the Waveā. You can find this published article in the Fall 2017 Issue of Advancing Philanthropy Magazine. Doug shares his very unique perspective on fundraising in the philanthropic space and how that relates to impact investing. Stay tuned until the very end for a special song from a Detroit artist.
For the full transcript click below Read Full TranscriptWelcome to another episode of the Bonfires of Social Enterprise. This is Romy and today we head over to the Impact Investing Inglenook to chat with Douglas Bitonti Stewart about his recent article titled āImpact Investing and the Development Professional: Learning to Ride the Waveā. You can find this published article in the Fall 2017 Issue of Advancing Philanthropy Magazine. By the way, we have a lot of links in our show notes for this episode if you want to learn more, which, I am certain, you will after hearing from our guest. Doug shares his very unique perspective on fundraising in the philanthropic space and how that relates to impact investing. Stay tuned until the very end for a special song from a Detroit artist.
Letās jump right in to the conversation with Doug.Romy: Well, welcome to the podcast. We're going to talk today about the article you wrote, Impact Investing and the Development Professional. I love that we're going to talk about this from the framing of a development professional because it's rarely discussed, and you have a lot of experience with it. So we'll give links at the end of where this article can be found, and so let's dive right in and talk about the overview of the article first.
Douglas Stewart: Sure. So thank you for thinking enough of the article to have a podcast about it. I love your podcast, and I think everybody should be listening to this, and I'm also really hopeful that development officers will start listening to your podcast because this is really important stuff.
To start with the why that I felt this article was even necessary. For me, having spent 20 years as a development guy, working for mostly children's hospitals, I loved that work. And after doing that for 20 years, I was just lucky enough to be asked by a family to help run their family foundation.
I never thought I was going to do that. Didn't design my career for that but was found myself ... When you've done development long enough, you start to see your role not as raising money, but you see yourself as helping people change the world. And some people do that by contributing money. Other people do that by contributing their careers.
And so I had a chance to work up alongside a family, and so, I ended up becoming a foundation person, but not because that was my goal. So in my role as a foundation person, I was...
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DIME Detroit
Time for another episode of the bonfires of social enterprise. Hear from the founders who took a chance, traded London for Detroit and began to engage with the young music talent of Detroit and then Denver. As usual, stay to the end and enjoy a full song from one of the student artists from DIME.
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Stephen of Charity ChargeWelcome back to another episode of The Bonfires of Social Enterprise. My name is Romy and I’m your host and guide here. This time, we hear from Stephen Garten, the founder and CEO of Charity Charge in Austin Texas. Stephen discusses the moment the idea came together along with the current and I guess, ongoing issues of a social enterprise today. As we do over here, there’s a great song at the end of this episode, so stay tuned all the way to the end.
For the full transcript – click below
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Detroit Mushroom Factory with Deana & Chris
Hello out there in listener land, this is Romy bringing you another episode of the Bonfires of Social Enterprise. This episode is all about mushrooms! Did you know there are all different types of mushrooms that can be grown indoors, and, that there is a mushroom factory in Detroit? Well, you will meet Deana and Chris and hear all about their story from concept to now. As customary, I also like to introduce a song from a Detroit artist at the end of each episode so stay tuned to the end.
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Detroit S.O.A.R. – Sisters On A Roll, Mobile Cafe’
Hey there, I am back with another guest from the great city of Detroit. This is Romy, and I have the pleasure of introducing you to Chef Bee and Jasmine of social enterprise Detroit S.O.A.R! They have an inspiring story of joining together around health food for some very interesting reasons. This is a true story of how we are better together! Stay tuned at the end for a really fun song by a Detroit artist. As a matter of fact, you might want to find your dancinā shoes while you are listening, so you are ready.
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Latrice McClendon of Impact Community Health
Thanks for tuning in to the Bonfires of Social Enterprise. This is Romy, and I have a friend of mine on the episode today. Latrice McClendon is quite an entrepreneur and just an all around amazing person. On this episode, we will hear about one of her businesses. She has at least one other venture with her husband. And, of course, you know I love music around here, so we will hear from another Detroit artist and their full song at the end of the episode so stay tuned!
For the Full Transcript – Click below Read Full TranscriptThanks for tuning in to the Bonfires of Social Enterprise. This is Romy, and I have a friend of mine on the episode today. Latrice McClendon is quite an entrepreneur and just an all around amazing person. On this episode, we will hear about one of her businesses. She has at least one other venture with her husband. And, of course, you know I love music around here, so we will hear from another Detroit artist and their full song at the end of the episode so stay tuned!
Luke has our Fun Fuel today, letās see what he found for usā¦.
Hi, this is Luke Trombley, and I am bringing you the fun fuel for this episode.
While on the topic of infant health care, did you know that around 255 babies are born each minute? So for the time, it takes you to brush your teeth, nearly 300 new lives are brought into this world. It is also estimated that 353,000 babies are born in one day around the world. So far this year, over 78 million babies have been born.
Thank you so much for taking time to listen to this fun fuel! Enjoy the episode!
Thanks for that fun fuel Luke! Time to check in now with Latrice and see what she is up to with beautiful mamaās and their perfect little babiesā¦.Romy:
Alright so welcome Latrice Mcclendon from Impact Community Health, I am really excited you're on our show.Latrice:
Thank you, I'm excited to be on your show.Romy:
Our little podcast. We love our little podcast.Well anyway [crosstalk 00:00:18] so today we're talking about health, and you've got a cool spin on your new social enterprise. Well, I guess it's not new; but I just newly met you through Build institute, Build Social, right? Couple-
Latrice:
Correct.Romy:
Months ago. Yeah.So you were one of the winners of the program there, and I got really excited right then to put you on the podcast as a guest. So, for our listeners, let's tell everyone what Impact Community Health is in the Detroit area.
Latrice:
Awesome. Hello, everybody. Impact Community Health is- we are a maternal/infant health program here in Michigan, and -
Bogobrush: Heather and John McDougall
Hey there! This is Romy here for another episode of the Bonfires of Social Enterprise! On this episode, we are going to hear from a creative brother and sister team making toothbrushes for some good causes. Fun! And, of course, at the end, we have a great song from a Detroit artistā¦.always one of my favorite parts of the episode.
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Hamilton Perkins
Hamilton and his team are working with Thread International to make bags and other accessories from some of the recycled plastics in Haiti. He has very interesting story. Be sure to stay tuned for a great Detroit artist group called The Infatuations. You will feel like you are transported back in time with their great song.
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Mile High Workshop
What’s going on in Denver social enterprise manufacturing these days?!
Romy catches up with Andy Magel of the Mile High Workshop manufacturer in Denver, Colorado.
Great song the end!
For Full Transcript
Read Full TranscriptIntroduction
Hi there! This is Romy and welcome back to another episode of the Bonfires of Social Enterprise. I... -
Job Creation & Impact Investing with Don Lee
Today, we are moving to the Impact Investing Inglenook to talk to Don Lee. Don has been quite a visionary around social enterprise local investing and has begun to change the way many people are investing in the Detroit area. His has passionate rationale and incredible enthusiasm ā It is quite contagious actually. We have a very special surprise artist at the end of this episode for your listening pleasure so stay tuned!
Full Transcript – click below Read Full TranscriptIntroduction
Hi there! This is Romy and welcome back to another episode of the Bonfires of Social Enterprise. Today, we are moving to the Impact Investing Inglenook to talk to Don Lee. Don has been quite a visionary around social enterprise local investing and has begun to change the way many people are investing in the Detroit area. His has passionate rationale and incredible enthusiasm ā It is quite contagious actually. We have a very special surprise artist at the end of this episode for your listening pleasure so stay tuned! Before we jump in, letās see what Luke has for our Fun Fuelā¦Fun Fuel
Hi, this is Luke Trombley, and I am bringing you the fun fuel for this episode.
Don Lee makes a huge impact on businesses with his investing, much like how meteors make huge impacts on earth itself. The world's largest crater is located in Australia, before impact, it split into two pieces, each 6 miles across. This created two craters covering around 250 miles of Australia's beautiful countryside.
The second biggest crater is located in South Africa. The meteor was between 5 and 10 kilometers and was traveling around 20 kilometers per second. That is around 12 miles a second!
Thank you for tuning into this fun fuel. Enjoy the episode!Transition
Thanks, Luke! I love this idea of thinking about Impact Investing making large scale impact. That just gave me a different visual. In some ways, impact investing has turned the financial markets a little sideways when it comes to local investing. Many said it couldnāt be done, but, as you will hear from Don, it is happening right now! Let me not delay one more minute and letās jump over to my conversation with Donā¦Main Interview
Don: Romy, thanks for having me. Man, it's been ... it's just been so cool what's been happening the last couple of years when we connected and what we're doing with, in the city of Detroit. It's just amazing, creating over 44 jobs in three entities, that we invested in with your leadership and help. It's been great so thanks for having me.Romy: Gosh, I feel like, I'm just an administrator here, you've been part of the visionary and I think it's been, I'm glad you said only a couple of years because I think it's been closer to four years that we've been doing this. But that's good, time flies.
Don: Scary.
Romy: I know. Hey, you know what? This has been awesome to have you on here because I've been wanting to have you one here, we get so many questions around impact investing and you are a walking example of somebody who kind of caught the bug a little bit, had the idea, and you've journeyed from actually putting your money into it, both direct and private equity funds that you help design and now help oversee. You, sort of, we'd say, officially caught the bug for impact investing so I'd love to just start at the
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Nique Love Rhodes
We have a social entrepreneur of a different kind, she is a rapper! You will have an opportunity to learn how the social and business sides come together for impact with Nique Love Rhodes! We featured her once before on one of the other episodes, Bags to Butterflies, I think. You will have to check it out. And, since she is an artist herself, we will get to hear TWO songs today, one of which is an exclusive debut before her album even releases!
For the full transcript of the episode click below: Read Full TranscriptIntroduction
Welcome to another episode of the Bonfires of Social Enterprise! This is Romy and we have something new for you today! We have a social entrepreneur of a different kind, she is a rapper! You will have an opportunity to learn how the social and business sides come together for impact with Nique Love Rhodes! We featured her once before on one of the other episodes, Bags to Butterflies, I think. You will have to check it out. And, since she is an artist herself, we will get to hear TWO songs today, one of which is an exclusive debut before her album even releases! Too muchā¦
Before we get started, letās see what Luke has for our fun fuel ā¦Fun Fuel
Hi, This is Luke Trombley, and I am bringing you the fun fuel for this episode.
Nique has incorporated rap into her career, so we are going to take a closer look into rap and the history of this genre.
Rap has recently taken the world by storm. But where did it come from? In 1973, a man named DJ Kool Herc was sitting his apartment in the Bronx with his sister. The young DJ took two turntables and played the same breakbeat section of the James Brown record āclap your hands.ā This method of recording is also used today by many producers. In 1979 rap took off and gave birth to many popular songs, including rappers delight by the sugar hill gang.Transition
Thank you Luke! Always informative and fun, hence, why we call it the Fun Fuel, ha ha.
Okay, letās get to it. Here is my interview with the amazing Nique Love Rhodes.Main Interview
Romy: So, all right, so welcome to the podcast.Nique: Thank you. I'm very excited.
Romy: Yeah
Nique: It's a big week for me; I get married literally in seven days from now.
Romy: What? I didn't know that.
Nique: Yes. Yes.
Romy: Congratulations.
Nique: So-
Romy: So you'll be married when this comes out.
Nique: Yes, I'm excited.
Romy: Oh my gosh. It's so great Nique. Well, you're our first artist, you're our first, let's say a musician artist-
Nique: Yep.
Romy: ... that is a social entrepreneur so, I've been really excited and waiting to interview you, and I wanted to talk about all the things that you do and why you're, why we consider each other social entrepreneurs. And because I don't think sometimes musicians who are doing inspirational things think of themselves that way.
Nique: That's true. That's true.
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