Episodi
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The Final Episode of Season Five (and the final episode of Uncertain) is a very special episode. The Board of Directors of Tears of Eden interviews Katherine Spearing, reflecting on the journey of creating five seasons and 110 episodes. They'll discuss:
What Katherine is most proud of during the past five seasons
How Katherine has navigated carrying stories of abuse and trauma while also being a survivor
What it's like working with a team and building community after experiencing abuse within a community
What it's like to pioneer bringing pivotal conversations into the public eye
How being a woman has impacted Katherine's approach and experience calling out abuse
And More!
Featuring Erin Pickersgill, Nikki G. and Brad Klausman
Looking for a trauma-trained mental health professional to work with? www.traumaresolutionandrecovery.com/meet-our-practitioners
Sign up for Tears of Edenâs newsletter to receive updates on the release of Katherine Spearingâs upcoming book: www.tearsofeden.org/about
Uncertain is a podcast of Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If youâre enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus.
You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/support
To get in touch with us please email [email protected]
Follow on Instagram @uncertainpodcast
Transcript is Unedited for Typos and Misspellings
[00:00:00] I'm Katherine Spearing and this is Uncertain. So today's episode is a special one. It's a little bit happy and celebratory, and it's also a little bit sad. This episode is for the foreseeable future the last episode of Uncertain. It is the end of an era, the end of a journey, and also the beginning of one, I hope. Is the fifth season. We're ending the fifth season. There are five seasons of Uncertain. There's also over a hundred episodes. That's a really big deal. I was planning to sort of end the season with the episode from last week with Janai Amon talking about the How to prepare for telling your story publicly in a safe way.
I was really excited about that episode. I was prepared to end on that episode. And then I met with the board of directors for tears of Eden. Yes, we have a [00:01:00] board of directors. We are a nonprofit. All non profits have a board of directors, and I was really thrilled that they suggested, hey, why don't we do like a final celebratory episode in which we, the board, interview you, Katherine, about the journey we're on.
with Uncertain. And I honestly was so in the zone of like, okay, I need to finish the season. I need to wrap it up. I need to get everything out. I need to do the promo and I need to do the recording and I need to do the editing and just kind of full on just work task mode. And so the fact that the board suggested, hey, let's do an episode to sort of commemorate and celebrate.
That was really helpful. I really appreciated it. It meant so much to me and this episode meant a lot to me as well. This whole journey has meant so much to me. I'm going to talk more about it in the episode itself during the interview. Be sure to sign up for our newsletter, the Tears of Eden newsletter, so that you can stay [00:02:00] updated on everything that is continuing to happen with Tears of Eden, including but not limited to a book about spiritual abuse that I am currently writing and will be releasing next year 2025. Thank you all so much for listening. Uh, so before I start crying, I will turn it over to the board of directors of Tears of Eden.
Here is the final episode where the board of directors interviews Katherine Spearing
Erin: Will you like edit things? Oh, definitely. I'll definitely
Katherine: edit it. Yeah. And I'll probably just kind of speak, speak openly, and then decide later if I care.
you're gonna edit
Erin: yourself. I'm definitely
Katherine: going to edit myself. I probably edit myself more than I edit guests, honestly, because they're going to be going to be real about that. I was like, why do I say like so much? I say like so much.
Erin: You like it. You like it. I like to say like, [00:03:00] exactly.
Katherine: So can we have everybody introduce yourselves? Your name, where you're located, your pronouns, and what how you found Tears of Eden, and then what made you want to be on the board of directors aside from me coercing you into it?
Brad: Nicky threatening my life.
Erin: That'll do it.
Nicole: That's because Catherine threatened my life, so I just was passing down the baton. Hey,
Erin: I didn't get threatened. I feel left out.
Brad: Well, don't worry. That means you saved on therapy bills. It's okay. And
Katherine: we are not a cult.
Nicole: No. No. We've had enough of those.
Katherine: Nikki, why
Nicole: don't you go first?
Okay. I am Nikki G, and certified trauma recovery coach, and I specialize in religious trauma, cult recovery, and narc abuse, and I hail from the state of Texas. And [00:04:00] how did I find this safe space that I found that I'm in right now? Well, I met Catherine, maybe about 2021, I think and we connected that way, came on our podcast with myself and another coach.
And We just hit it off. We found that we had a lot of commonality and our hearts were both centered on, obviously, recovering ourselves, but also helping those who have gone through horrendous forms of spiritual abuse and religious trauma. And so, you know, Catherine reached out to me, I think the end of 2021, and said, Hey!
There's a board seat. You want to get on the board? No, she didn't say it that easy, but she was just saying, I would love to have you. I think, you know we hit it off well, and I think we have the same vision. And so I came on board. I remember her. I'm not going to do that now, but I remember her explaining to me how tears of Eden, the actual name came to being, and I just fell in love with that.
[00:05:00] And she didn't have the strong army. And so I said, yes. And I've been on the board since the beginning of 2022. So that's my story and I'm sticking with it
Katherine: and Nikki has been with me through many a trial tears of Eden related. Yeah. And it's gotten me through many things. Very, very grateful, and also runs the support groups or has run the past few support groups that we've done.
Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful support group, support person, wonderful human being. Erin, you want to go next?
Erin: Hi everyone so my name is Erin Pickerskill and I'm the, I'm an Episcopal priest in the Diocese of Missouri. And my pronouns are she, her I've been a priest for a few years and as I was training to be a priest, I was in England and had some of my own experiences of spiritual abuse and religious trauma.
And as I was. Trying to find out if this thing was even real. [00:06:00] Found myself stomping around the British countryside, walking my dogs and listening to Catherine's voice on the Tia's of Eden podcast on certain and like just praying and wishing and hoping that I could find a community that would understand me and validate my experiences and ended up moving to St.
Louis after that. And so did Catherine. So I asked Catherine if I could take her out for a coffee. And And thank her for all of the validation and comfort she gave me and probably many others. And then I strong armed her into being my friend and that's how I do friendship. And but it was just so great.
And so then Catherine asked me to be part of the board like on a temporary basis and I loved it so much. Yeah, I just love being a part of this. community. Did I answer all your questions? Yeah, maybe that was about last year, Catherine, or about a year and a half ago. So
Katherine: I don't remember, but also came on in a torrential season [00:07:00] of personal and tears of Eden nature.
I remember when we both cried. I was like, I don't know. It was like, we laughed. Yeah.
Erin: It was amazing. It was amazing. Yeah. To me, like you were, it was like meeting my hero. And
Katherine: for me, it was just like, Whoa, we both moved here at the same time. Like, I did feel,
Erin: you know, this story that I felt so, so scared, you were going to think I was so creepy because I messaged you and I was like, you're moving to St.
Louis. So am I, let me get you a coffee. Like that is creepy. So I'm so glad that I'm so glad that you you took the chance and let me get coffee for you.
Katherine: One day it was very special. And I'm so grateful that you're on the board. You bring so much life and laughter and fun and we need that desperately.
And we ran into each other literally yesterday, yesterday. It was two days ago, one of those days at a coffee shop. [00:08:00] We're both at the same coffee shop. Yes. This
Erin: is awesome.
Katherine: Yes. I promise. I didn't
Nicole: know you were gonna be there.
Katherine: I didn't know you were gonna be there. You're like, I'm not being creepy. I swear. I was in your car route.
So good. So good. Cannot escape Erin. No. She's always there.
Erin: Oh, that's creepy. Brad's face is so scared. He's so scared. On that note.
Katherine: Yeah, right. Brad, how about you introduce yourselves?
Brad: Well, you know, I didn't know all that about Erin or I may have reconsidered. However I'm here. So my name is Brad. I short, brief history.
I'm a former pastor of 20 plus years in the Southern Baptist church. I escaped with, with no hair, but I escaped and became a certified light coach about four years ago helping people that are deconstructing from religious beliefs. Ideology, trauma and whatever they may go through.
My pronouns are he, him. I found out about [00:09:00] tears because of Nikki. Nikki and I met through Instagram discovered we had connection. And then she very bluntly threatened me to interview for tears. And right that same day that she threatened me, she sent me an application or something and said, you need to fill this out. And so with that began the process of, of interrogation, background checks floggings, you know, all that. I must say I was incredibly nervous meeting Catherine obviously the brains behind the operation. But I love tears. And the, the mission and the way in which this organization goes about providing resources and meet the needs of those that are, have, are struggling or have been struggling spiritually.
And don't know where they're at. And so that's obviously one of my passions being who I am. I am currently pretty [00:10:00] busy because I'm in the midst of my clinical mental health counseling master's degree. I figure I need I need to replace my past master's degree seminary with something more relevant.
No effect. No offense, Aaron. So you know, just a little, little me thing. It's, it's more of a me problem. So with that being said, I'm just excited to be here. I'm excited about this next step and tears life. Tears of Eden's life and what. The vision that Catherine has and what she's going to be doing next.
So that's a little bit about me.
No, just realize that I am the only male here. So, you know, just saying. Oh, he pulled the mail card. It's really hard for
Nicole: him. Yeah.
Brad: Oh, my privilege is showing. I'm so sorry
Katherine: for you.
Nicole: We're so glad that you're here. This is all in great spirit. Yes. I do
Katherine: remember asking Nikki, like, he is [00:11:00] a white man.
Are you sure? Apparently. Totally fair question. .
Nicole: Yes.
Katherine: No, we love that. I'm very grateful for you. I'm very grateful that you're on the board and grateful that you have been here. You've been through the support group with us too, and you're the champion of re-shares on Instagram, always re-sharing content.
Mm-Hmm, super appreciate that. Yeah. So very, very glad that you're here. And I'm Catherine, she, her, and. Host soon to be former host of uncertain podcast. And this is our celebration episode for five seasons, 110 episodes. And. I guess I'll just announce that this is the final episode for now of Uncertain.
That is why we were doing this episode, the special celebratory episode, Aaron's [00:12:00] idea. So glad that you had the idea. Cause I was just like, ah, we're just going to, you know, have a last episode and then we're going to be done. And Aaron was like, no, we need to celebrate. Can we, we need to celebrate
Erin: you. We need to celebrate you.
That's what we are here to celebrate. So all of you listeners, we're not just. Celebrating this podcast today. We are really intentionally reading it and asking Catherine, like returning the table and asking Catherine the questions about her experience over the last five years.
Katherine: I really appreciate it.
I'll just say that. Really, really appreciate it. Really grateful that you are, you had the idea to celebrate because it needed to happen. There needed to be just like a celebration and a, and a nice little cumulative ending. So I very much appreciate that. So thank you so much for having the idea and are y'all okay.
If I just kind of surrender to you and you decide. What's next for the rest of this episode, even though I feel like the episode's already been awesome so far stories [00:13:00] like, man, why did I interview all of you?
Erin: I would I would love to Nikki, were you making gestures? Do you want to me to me? You're pointing at me?
Wow. Thanks. Okay, thumbs up. I'm gonna I'm gonna so gladly kick us off, Catherine. I'm going to give you a really easy. Easy starting question, and then they're going to get progressively harder, I'm sure. Sweet! I'm ready. Yeah, okay. And listeners, we did not ask Catherine to review or reflect on these questions beforehand, so these are all off the dub.
100 percent improvised. Good luck. Good thing you're good at that. Okay, so listen, I would love to know, What is, as you reflect over the last five years of podcasting podcasting uncertain, what is a highlight of all of your interviews or, or like, what are you most proud of a particular moment?
Katherine: Yeah, I was reflecting mostly on that this morning.
I like [00:14:00] blocked out an hour and I was like, I want to sit with, like, go through all the episodes. I didn't listen to them, but I just like, Went through and like remembered episodes and took notes on things. And I think one of the things that I'm most proud of is, well, five seasons, 110 episodes, but also that we are exploring this topic that we are really pioneering so many different conversations.
And religious trauma is in mainstream culture. We're aware of that as a Western culture, but spiritual abuse is still not a super mainstream conversation. And I think a lot of that just has to do with the culture and, you know, the United States itself identifying as a Christian nation and, and folks more comfortable with the idea that they experienced trauma, but maybe not so comfortable with the idea that so many things that we see as Christianity.
As [00:15:00] normal regular everyday Christianity are actually objectively harmful and coercive and controlling and abusive and shaming and that conversation is probably still about five to 10 years out in terms of being mainstream. So we are pioneering. So many conversations and we're, and we've had so many public conversations already that are conversations that are happening.
Absolutely. But we made them public. And some of the topics that we have addressed on uncertain are the first time that I am aware of that they have been discussed in public. I was just thinking about one of the episodes with Keanu Hadari about Asking the question was Jesus sexually abused and exploring that subject.
Like I've never, we talked about a book. We were referencing a book up until then, like I'd never heard anyone discuss that or bring that into the public light or, or have that discussion of, is that a [00:16:00] possibility? Did that happen? Could that have happened? And so just the fact that we have just pioneered and been forerunners in this conversation, that's probably going to be happening in mainstream culture in like five years or 10 years.
All of these subjects that we are covering is that makes me very proud that, that, that has been something that we've been able to do and explore in a public way that has been helpful to people. So that, that makes me really proud. I'm very proud of that.
Erin: As you should be. What about over to Brad or Nikki for a question?
Brad: So first of all, that was awesome. And you're so right about it not being mainstream yet. Even going through a master's degree in counseling, it's a hard topic, right? Trying to get that relevant. within the education system. So let me ask you this along those lines, and then this is going to be tough for you to answer.
Okay. Because it's, it's broad. All right. Give me something or give us the audience, something that you were [00:17:00] dumbfounded to learn about, you know,
Katherine: on these
Brad: podcasts.
Katherine: Everything coming to my mind has to do with sex. So any of the podcasts that we did about sex or purity culture, I feel like I learned something and I realized like how ignorant I was. and then came to the slow realization that I was kept ignorant on purpose, like it wasn't just like, Oh, I just missed that and sex education class.
There was no sex education class. There was no discussion about. So many different things. So anytime we had like a sex coach or sex and relationship coach the sex evangelicals, Julia and Jeremiah, Lucy Rowett, Kim Cavill, I would ask questions of them, like in those interviews that like, I always wanted to ask, and I was just like, I need to ask an expert and I'm going to ask you in the context of a podcast interview, having no idea what you are going to say, because I actually don't know the answer to this question.
[00:18:00] And so. That is what's coming to mind for me of just like things that I thought about a lot more afterwards and realize the power play in so much of the approach to sex and the withholding of information within the context of church,
Nicole: Nikki. Well, I'm going to rewind back a little bit more and kind of shift. So track back five years ago. What's entered Catherine's mind to start on certain podcasts? Bum,
Katherine: bum, bum, bum. Yes. This, this origin story is tears of Eden's origin story probably came before the podcast. And in 2019, I was still at an abusive church and.
I started researching with the intent of like forming some kind of [00:19:00] more formal community for people who are leaving churches like this, because as I was going through my experience, I was talking to people all over the country, all over the world, and hearing similar stories to mine, so I just realized like, oh, My church is not the only church where this is happening.
It is happening in a lot of places. And so kind of seeing this as a potential need and then wanting to find other people that were maybe already doing this and couldn't find a lot, but did find individual like Or one couple that was ran like a retreat center, like a recovery center for people who had left cults.
And a lot of the folks who came through their center were from Bible based cults. And so the fact that they were naming that and working with that demographic of people, that was an episode with Bob pardon. That is. And the archived episodes that are accessible for monthly donors. And and I, I think about his [00:20:00] episode a lot too, because I feel like I learned a lot just from him, I think decades of working with this demographic.
But I didn't really find. A lot of organizations working with this demographic, but I just had so many interesting conversations with people. And I just wanted a way to bottle up those conversations and share them with other people. And so that's where the idea for Uncertain came from of like, why don't I just like start interviewing people thinking, Oh, this will be easy.
I'd had a podcast before. It was called Frank frog hunting and which I documented my dating dating journey. And so I'd done it before I already had a mic. So I kinda, I kinda knew what to do. And so I just started Begging, bribing, coercing, and threatening people to be on the podcast. And let me, let me interview them to talk about it.
And there was a long period of time where I debated, like, do I want this podcast to be something that I put on my website and it's like separate from the nonprofit? Do I want to [00:21:00] put them together? Are they the same thing? And I don't remember. What led to the choice of like, let's make this part of the nonprofit.
But eventually like that decision was made. I don't remember why. And, and connected it to tears of Eden as a part of tears of Eden. And it became a very pivotal part of tears of Eden for most of tears of Eden's existence. So I'm glad that that decision was made. I made the decision to keep them together.
I think I was worried about the conversations being confrontational and potentially You know, inciting, you know, kickback or whatever. And I didn't want that associated with the nonprofit. I was like, Oh, you could like kick back against me, but don't, don't do it to the nonprofit. And I mean, they became sort of integrated anyway.
So here we are. I love that question.
Nicole: I'll go up to that though. Where did the name Uncertain come from? You might have [00:22:00] said this a long time ago, but for those who came in, like, let's say year three and on where did Uncertain come from?
Katherine: Yeah, that came from a conversation at Coffee in Los Angeles pre pandemic.
So it was probably in February 2020. I was at Coffee. Thinking about the podcast, I think I maybe recorded one or two episodes at that point, hadn't named it yet. Nothing was public. I was with my friend Alex and and so I was actually very specifically talking about the name and like, I don't know what to name it.
Do I name it? Tears of Eden podcast, but tears of Eden doesn't sound tears of it. It doesn't sound like. podcast. And so I, I wasn't really sure. And she was like, well, just tell me like, what do you hope to do with it? And I just, I said, I just want to have conversations. And hold space for us to be uncertain about those conversations and not really have any like agenda and have to have an answer.
We can just [00:23:00] talk and we don't have to conclude those conversations and we can just, just be comfortable being uncertain. And she was like, uncertain. That's a good podcast name. And I was like. Oh, it is a good podcast name. And so yes, Alex Scott, wherever you are is the reason that it is named uncertain.
Erin: I love that.
I, I remember like stomping around listening to those podcasts in the early days and, and loving the name of it so much because yeah, because I felt so uncertain and I felt like all the ground around me was shaking and just to be able to know, to like link into a group and to yourself and to your interviews that, that also was engaging with uncertain topics, you know, it made me feel so less alone.
Yeah.
Katherine: And that's such a pivotal part of the recovery process, I think too, because when we're coming out of fundamentalism, the, the [00:24:00] main marketing tenant of fundamentalism is. The answers, we have the answers, we will fulfill all of these answers, we will tell you how to think we will tell you what to experience and how to feel.
And so the converse of that is being able to sit in ambiguity and uncertainty. And confusion even, and just kind of be able to sit in that and be comfortable with that and not have to have the answers and the onus to have the answers. I think is one of the things that will lead us back into fundamentalist spaces because we're looking to satisfy that, that angst that can sometimes be caused when we don't have an answer.
Erin: Yeah. And so the opposite of being uncertain is being a learner or being curious, you know, and that, that, that sort of, you, you allowed us to be inspired to do that with you, which was, which is so awesome. I kind of, in the context of being uncertain and [00:25:00] having an uncertain posture I was wondering what did the medium of podcasting.
Or even the doing of the Uncertain Podcast bring out in you in terms of strengths, and gifts, and interests, and passions? Like, what did it sort of highlight for you that you maybe before that hadn't been able to explore or know about yourself?
Katherine: I love this question so much. It's like one of those questions.
It's like, I didn't know I want somebody to ask me it, but then as soon as they're asking, and I'm like, Oh, I'm so glad someone is asking me this question. Two things come to mind. First is I learn. And I've only discovered this recently. I learned by doing, and I learned by experiencing some watching maybe.
But I learned by an experience. And so having the experience of having an interview with someone and being in that conversation with [00:26:00] someone, I learned so much and I feel like I retained so much information in that way. Also, I think when I was in grad school. Every paper that you wrote, you had like a limit of how many personal interviews you could do as, as resources for a paper.
And I always maxed out every personal interview. Cause I just really liked talking to people and learning for them. And so. When I got to do the podcast, it was like, Oh, that same part of me, like, I'm, I'm going to learn from having conversations with people more than I'm going to learn from reading their book.
Even though I did read the books of the authors that I interviewed, most of them I I, I really learned more and solidified more in having the conversation than I did from actually reading their book. And so that was a better learning experience for me. And now people are like, you're a [00:27:00] like, Oh, you must have read blah, blah, blah.
And you must have read blah, blah, blah. And you're like up to date on all of the literature, like not really, but I have talked to so and so on my podcast and we have emailed and we've had conversations through Instagram. But. Maybe you haven't read their book. But don't read, read people's books, buy books, support authors.
I will say that if you don't have the money, ask for it from a library because they will order it for you and it will be free. That's my little plug for that. But that was one thing. And then the second thing, this is a little bit interesting. That I wasn't, this was something that surprised me. So when I was growing up in a very fundamentalist patriarchal world, and there were prescribed roles for women and prescribed perspectives of how women were supposed to behave and what a good woman was.
I had a lot of people either directly tell me or passively aggressively tell me that I was mean or M E A N and or, or rude or [00:28:00] harsh or abrasive. They didn't cuss, but they probably would have called me bitchy if they did at a lot of people like make those comments about me, either in the family or in the community.
And so I had this perspective from myself that I was just this really mean disgruntled bitch. But then when I would listen to interviews. And I would like get to re re listen to it and edit it, edit it. And I could hear myself after the fact. And there were particular times where like I asked a question and my memory of the question was, Oh, that was harsher.
That was to redirect or, Oh, I shouldn't have said it that way or whatever. And I would like ruminate on it later. And then I would listen to it back a few weeks later. And I was like, Oh, I'm not. I'm not, I'm not mean, I'm not rude. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not all of these things that people had said about me.
And it took like listening back to myself in real time conversation with some [00:29:00] distance to kind of shift that perspective of myself and sort of see some of that was probably just. Put on perceptions of like what women were supposed to be like, and I just didn't fit that ideal. And I knew I didn't fit that ideal, but I didn't know that that had directly impacted my view of myself, thinking of myself as like a mean.
And rude person. Which I now know it's like, I don't, nah, that's not true. I have, I have mean moments for sure. Itchy moments for sure. But that's not who I am as like my character. And so had years of that being put on me that I got to undo in real time through podcasting. So that was a surprise.
That was a surprise gift.
Brad: So. If I can just kind of piggyback on that a little bit because I was going to ask you a similar question when you started going that direction. I don't know if people [00:30:00] completely understand what now follow this, this wacky train of thought. Okay. So you are obviously a female calling out religious stuff.
Okay. Which naturally would create angst by people that are conservative.
And you're faced with even in all those episodes, you're faced with calling out trauma and and stereotypes and all kinds of stuff that religion has, I guess you could say, impressed upon the minds of many people since they were kids.
When it came to podcasting, how did you not only heal, but keep yourself healthy while going through those episodes?
Katherine: Well, we first have to say, am I healthy? That's a, yeah. And I think that that's one of, one of many reasons why I think that the podcast is coming to a [00:31:00] close now is. The crux of my health is on the line and like my ability to stay healthy physically I'm having to make some difficult choices just for my own personal health.
And there was always, I was always aware there was going to be a time like that it was potentially going to be more than I was able to carry. And so I think. That, that was always just a NAV, a constant navigation throughout the whole experience and dealt with so much imposter syndrome, I think with the podcast of just, I just remember the first season, every episode, every time an episode would launch, I would just.
And I can guess and ruminate and all of the things. And I think always, it always came up in, you know, therapy, especially if there was like a particular episode that [00:32:00] really hit home in a specific way. Early on, there were some folks that I interviewed who, there was one particular, I was remembering that never an episode that never went up.
So there were several episodes that never went up. But when I was remembering, we were talking about characteristics of a toxic church. And I think this was in season one. And as we're having the conversation in real time, the woman that I'm talking to is like realizing that she is actually in real time in a toxic church as we were doing the interview.
And. Before the episode went up, she emailed me and she was like, I don't feel comfortable with it going up just like where I am and I put in my journey and all that kind of stuff. Of course, no problem not going up, but I was still in this like locked into this like I have to get an episode out every week.
And, and so I couldn't get an episode out that week. And, and so I couldn't because it was like care for her or. Not get an episode out. I didn't have anything else in the lineup. And [00:33:00] I just remember just feeling like such a failure because I like, couldn't get an episode up. And now I skip episodes all the time.
So like going through that experience of like, like, what is the definition of a successful podcast and having to. Define that for myself because it is a frontier terrain. And I was like, Googling some articles this morning about like podcasting and statistics and all this kind of stuff. And like, there's some podcasts of like how to do a podcast.
And if you want to be a successful, you must do it this way and blah, blah, blah, as every industry has. And realizing that it is kind of like a create your own journey. You can learn from things that other people have done, but you really have to create your own journey. And I realized pretty quickly that because of the nature of the subject, how heavy it was and how many heavy conversations I needed to listen to my body.
And if I was exhausted, if I was, if I was in trauma [00:34:00] mode, like I was, Working through something and the podcast wasn't something that was going to be help helping that that taking a break was necessary and just had to let, let go of the, the standard of, if you, you have it, you must have an episode out every week in order to be successful.
And that just became less and less important. As I realized that. I'm also a trauma survivor, and I'm also a spiritual abuse survivor, and this stuff is going to impact me, and just being aware of that, not, not pretending like I'm okay, because sometimes I'm not.
Nicole: I can understand where you're coming from with that. It's hard to juggle both, you know, sometimes, but that's another reason why we're here celebrating you, because somehow or another you got through it, and you know, you were able to do this for five years. And for those who may not know, and I don't know if I can spill the beans, [00:35:00] but she Catherine was really a one man show through the whole five years of this podcast, from, you know, obtaining the guests, obtaining the questions and the content, editing all of the episodes that you guys got to hear you know, hearing the feedback sending out newsletters.
Catherine was doing a lot and I think I can speak for her and say this came from the heart. This was a heart effort, you know, and I'm pretty sure a lot of the listeners really, really appreciate that, especially leading the support groups. When, when I connect with some of the group members, a lot of them say they found out about, you know, spiritual abuse and really what they went through from listening to the podcast.
So the podcast was not only helping people to find a safe space but it was a place, a platform. For people to be educated to really, you know, say, oh, wait a minute. I went through that too. That's what that's called. And so I just want to honor you [00:36:00] for, you know, the sacrifices that you made to make this be a real thing.
That's been a lifeline for so many. And since I'm on that. I want to focus on the listeners now because you see the numbers, you see the hits and a lot of people have tapped into Uncertain Podcasts over the past five years. And if you're out there listening, we just want to honor you and thank you for sticking with the podcast and sticking with Tears of Eden and listening to all the episodes.
We really appreciate you for that. But what is some being the fact that you have focused on the listeners a lot. It's not just about, Oh, I like this, this guest. Let me grab that person and put them on. It's okay. Where are the listeners now? We covered this in season one. Now we're going to cover this in season two.
You've been very Intentive as far as how you want it to lay this stuff out. What are some of the messages or some of the themes that you really hoped in your heart? Dr. [00:37:00] Listeners would, would gain from hearing the episodes. What is it that you wanted them to really know and glean from the podcast?
Katherine: Yeah, and I'm really glad that you highlighted that because I think that that is important. Concept to maintain when you're creating any kind of content is who is your audience? And I had to keep in mind, and I did every time I did an interview, Like survivors. And sometimes I would be thinking of specific survivors.
I had had conversations with and questions that we had asked each other and would take those questions. Sometimes I would send out emails to like, if I knew someone really liked a certain author and they had maybe written a blog post about the author, I would like send them a DM. And I was like, . And so I would like send them direct message or an email and just be like, Hey, send me some questions.
I'm going to email interview them tomorrow. And so like kind of keeping that person. In mind [00:38:00] as these conversations are happening every time, every, yeah, just like even how the questions are formed. And I think that the, yeah, just the reality that there are some conversations that we've had on the podcast that I really haven't seen anywhere before publicly.
We did a, a podcast with Laura Anderson on anger, and I think I've seen a few things on anger and the health of anger in other places, usually in the psychology world, not necessarily in the, in the Jesus world. So but just having that conversation also with Laura Anderson, we talked about second wave fundamentalism, the idea of like, we leave these fundamentalist spaces and then we go recreate deconstruction spaces.
Using the same principles that we learned in the fundamentalist spaces. No one's talking about that, like, right now. Like, we're having these conversations that are just, like, before, before it's [00:39:00] time, you know, coming, coming up We had an episode on forgiveness. That was one episode that I was really excited about the episode that we just aired last week that before we did this episode was going to be the last episode with Jani Amon about what if I get sued, protecting yourself when telling your story?
There's not information about that out there. I'm not finding it like I've looked at at a lot of, a lot of it is just like having so many conversations with people and kind of piecing it all together. I don't remember the question, Nikki, I apologize. Where am I going?
Nicole: No, no, I think you're answering it.
Just, you know, what are some of the themes that, you know, you really wanted the listeners to grab hold of and you just said anger and you know what to do with that and forgiveness, which is what I call the F word when you start talking to a spiritual abuse survivor. So yeah, I don't know if there's any more that you can think.
Katherine: Yeah. And I'm also thinking of just like the, the numbers if we're looking at [00:40:00] statistics of like what, what episodes were most listened to people wanted pragmatic, practical advice. Those were the episodes that people will listen to the topic based on the topic for something very practical and pragmatic celebrities.
Most of our listeners did not care. Like I would have on like some big name person and think that it was going to get, You know, thousands of listeners and it got like a hundred and it was like, they don't care if the person is popular, like they were, our listeners were looking for practical application and practical advice for this season.
And that, you know, definitely helped tailor The content of like, this is what, what people want and what they need and what they're looking for. Yeah, so that was really, really special to kind of have that connection to our audience of like, what this audience is looking for. And then also know, like, I am a part of that audience and [00:41:00] like, Oh, Kind of pulling from what do I want to know more about and who are people that I really want to have a conversation with.
I'm thinking about Makoto Fujimora. And we just talked about healing trauma through creating art. That's also an archive episode available to monthly subscribers, but that conversation was so cool. And yeah, I was just like, I emailed Makoto, like, Probably like four times. And then finally he like responded to me.
I was in line to get COVID tested and I like on my phone, got the email that he was like, Oh, I'm so sorry. I don't check this email very often. And I was like, he's going to be on my podcast. And so, yeah, so there was just a lot of conversations that were just kind of came out of like, what did I want to talk about and what was important to me to learn about too, as well.
Erin: I just love how orderly we're doing this. There's like, on my screen, it's like Brad and then Nikki and then it's like so ordered. It's [00:42:00] so proud of us.
Katherine: This organization is spot on. I'm very impressed.
Erin: We did a lot. It's like we planned it, but we didn't. Exactly. Okay. I love that we're talking about actual podcasting.
Cause when I was thinking about this, this interview with you, I was thinking about how important the actual Thing of like, the, the means of podcasting is and how you engaged with it and how it was somewhere different 5 years ago, really in the world podcasting as it is now. And my question for you about that, I kind of see you as someone who is in terms of ending uncertain for right now.
The baton on. Oh, I love that. To someone or lots of people. Yeah. I don't know who they're, but you're doing that. I feel that too. Yes. I feel like you're making space and you're saying you know what you're doing. Like the responsible, beautiful thing of saying, I think. My time here now is [00:43:00] done, but someone else will come and take it on.
So in light of that, in the hope of that happening, cause we would love for people, right. Like, yeah. Continue to engage with this stuff in this way. My question is what wisdom do you have for folks who are going to take the baton and engage in the intersection of, between spiritual abuse and podcasting?
Katherine: Yeah. I think a lot of people feel pressure to start a podcast because it's just something that everyone's doing.
And it's kind of like, if you have an organization or you have a business, like start a podcast and it's kind of something that people. I think maybe feel like they need to do. And, and so my first thing would be like, do it if it's something you really want to do and like, you're really excited about it.
And like, for me, the, the excitement was having these conversations and getting able, being [00:44:00] able to bring them to people. And, and that was the foundation of the excitement for doing this. And so find out whatever your reason is for doing it and let that be. Your passion for doing it, but don't just do a podcast just because everyone else is doing it.
Cause the market is saturated, not saturated with this subject. The subject is not a saturated subject. But yeah, do something that is exciting to you and you might have to discover that. As you're podcasting. And I think that that happened for me of like, I figuring out what type of guests I did like talking to and figuring out which ones I didn't like talking to and just kind of figuring out like, what did listeners, what were they enjoying and what were they maybe not super excited about?
And so like, it's just like anything. Let your passion drive you and , and then be willing to kind of learn along the way. And yeah, those are some of [00:45:00] the, some of the thoughts that I had.
Erin: No, that's brilliant. Thank you. Thanks for passing
Katherine: it on.
I like that pass the baton. I do really feel that way. I like, I feel like it is time for other people to join this conversation and carry this, this conversation through this. mechanism. Yes. It's time for other people to step into this. I do definitely feel that a little bit.
Erin: Okay. So follow up question really quick in your imagination and in your knowledge of the field, who, who are they?
I really
Katherine: hope it's a woman.
Erin: Sorry. Yeah.
Katherine: Or a, or a minority person that had that lived experience. There's already a lot of white men doing this and, and I'm, I'm sorry, Brad, I'm just tired of hearing from white men. I get it. So is he, so tired of it.
I am tired of this too. [00:46:00] Yeah. I just, I just feel like as I, I mean, I kind of went on a fast from. White men in terms of like, I'm not reading books by them. I'm not listening to their podcasts just to kind of, cause I just realized that I was still being drawn to the white male as a voice of authority and trust.
And so I felt like I just needed to sort of detox and, and then just realizing that members of the BIPOC community members of the LGBTQ plus community, women. Are doing amazing work. Like, it's not like we're like missing something, with the absence of the white man, that we are, we're not missing anything.
If we don't have the white male voice. Right now we just aren't so and so I just really hope that the folks who feel that and I think that as someone who like, that's probably my main source of trauma from the church of having gifts that were praised in men, but [00:47:00] because I was a woman, they were sidelined and silenced and shut down.
And then saying, fuck you, literally. And creating a podcast where I sermoned and taught and did all the things that I wasn't allowed to do in the context of church and faced all of the imposter syndrome and all of the, all of the voices telling me that I shouldn't be doing this, that I was doing something wrong by doing this, that I wasn't qualified, that I didn't know what I was talking about.
And, and recognizing that there are a lot of people out there that feel that way and maybe aren't talking. Because of that, because of that oppression and because of being shut down and silenced. And I want to hear from you. So get your mic and start podcasting.
Brad: First of all, I totally agree with everything you said. Totally. Thanks, Brad. I don't even listen to white men. I don't even listen to myself half the time. But anyway right because I want to hear from [00:48:00] minorities. as well. And then they do an outstanding job on every podcast I've listened to, whatever have you, if it's not a white male, I actually enjoy it more.
So that being the case and, and, and Aaron, that was a great question. And, and handing off the baton, knowing what you being considered for all my books, I'm reading school, a minority, Being female, right? What would you say to someone that's thinking about picking up the baton and going with it, that is not a white male, but has trauma from this?
I mean, what, what would you like? You had mentioned about, Hey, people really like to listen to the practical application. Would you say to them to encourage them or to support them? I hate the word encouraged because it's flashbacks. Bible
Katherine: hood.
Brad: So what would you say to support them? [00:49:00] And, and, and picking up that endeavor.
Katherine: What's coming to mind is just how deeply embedded fundamentalism was still in my body once I left. And it just took a lot of time and a lot of just like aha moments. A lot of times. In the context of a podcast interview. And so just enjoying that journey and I'm grateful that the podcast itself was called uncertain.
And I said that word every time there was an episode, because I think it was just kind of like a subconscious reminder of like, just because you don't wrap up the episode with a neat little bow. To tell someone how to do X, Y, Z what's important is that the conversation happened. And you don't have to set yourself up as an expert in a subject to ask questions about it.
I [00:50:00] like that. That's cool. I like that. You don't have to set yourself up as an expert in order to ask questions about it.
Brad: That's awesome.
Katherine: I like that.
Brad: Yeah.
Katherine: That's what I have to say.
Nicole: Okay. Time to get a little vulnerable. I think I know the answer to this question, but I
Katherine: feel
Nicole: very
Katherine: by you, Nicky, your voice is,
I'm so glad you're here. Thanks for being here
Nicole: since we're on the topic of, you know, the, the time being passed and you know, more conversations around this topic, I just want to bring some reality to it. Because yes, it's helpful. It's informative. It's supportive to the community, but it's not easy. You know, like I said earlier, you've done a lot of this on your own and I'm pretty sure there's been some bumps in the road.
So real vulnerable question within the five year span of doing this, [00:51:00] were there any moments when you felt like giving up and just saying, you know what, I can't do this anymore. And if so, how did you overcome it?
Katherine: Yes, definitely. . I think there was a, there was a time a couple of years ago, Nikki were very much a part of that season.
That was really, really challenging in. The life of the nonprofit and it really impacted me physically had a genuine trauma response. I think that was the season I both met Aaron and Brad in that season. So I was definitely like at the bottom of the bottom. And I took a month off from the Podcasts from the nonprofit just didn't check email.
Didn't do the Instagram, didn't interview. And I really just sat with like this and like asked myself the question I asked my body, [00:52:00] cause I was, it was a physical impact on my body and I just sat with. Like just asking my body, like you have done enough. You survived abuse as a child. You survived abuse as a teenager.
You survived abuse as an adult. You've experienced so much abuse. You have gotten me through so much. Like you are in charge. Are you ready to be done? Is this the end for you? Are you, are you done? And just like really wanted, and I was really, really willing to just say, if my body is speaking to me and telling me we're done.
Like be willing to, to to end the whole thing and didn't at the time feel like it was time to close up shop. Didn't feel like it was over. Didn't feel like the journey was over yet. But I definitely came out of that. Very intentionally. I just started like writing down my hours for tears of Eden.
And even though I knew I had worked so [00:53:00] much for tears of Eden, I hadn't ever written it down, so I didn't know how much and realized I had worked way more than I thought I did. For Tears of Eden. And so when I'm like getting to Wednesday and I've already done 17 hours for Tears of Eden and I also have a full time job and I'm also in school and I'm also doing other creative projects, I, I was like, okay, that's enough.
Like that is enough for this this work and, and having to be just really intentional about caring for myself. And I think that that's something that every nonprofit leader has to navigate of like, you do so much pouring out to help other people and finding the line of like. Where are you losing yourself in that process?
And I definitely think the physical impact of that challenging season showed me that I had. Like kind of [00:54:00] fragmented a little bit and, and needed to spend some more time just integrating and, and approaching, approaching myself with the same care that I maybe approached other people with and not something that is easy to do at all and it, and it isn't.
And I think that's some of the reasons for the ending of the podcast here is just Again, being in a season where my body has experienced a physical impact and wanting to care for my body and also recognizing it's for the health of the nonprofit too, because if the leader of the nonprofit is exhausted and burnout, that's not healthy for the nonprofit either.
And so it's, they go together. So that is yes. So how did you keep going? Well, I kind of did it, it kind of led to some overhauling of the system. And I think when you reach that [00:55:00] point of, do I want to keep doing this or am I ready to be done, that's a beautiful moment of just. Restock reassess. And I am not a fan of anyone doing something they don't want to do.
And like, if you were for whatever reason you don't want to, I'm not a fan of pushing through that. There are times sure that we do have to do that, but it's a lot less than I think that we have been conditioned to believe, especially in religiosity. And I think that. The pushing, if we feel like we're pushing through and just making it happen, that we're not really in it.
Just take a beat, take a beat five minutes, 10 minutes, five days, 50 days. Whatever you need to just kind of restock.
Nicole: That's that is so good. Catherine. And it's real, you being transparent not just being podcast and running the non profit, but I just [00:56:00] think for survivors religious trauma survivors, spiritual abuse survivors and this, this is, this is gonna make sense with all this, but sometimes we come out of what we've come out of, and You know, we look for justice, right?
You know, we were either sexually abused or physically abused and manipulated in these spaces and we want justice. And as I always say, we can't go march down to the local precinct and say, Hey, Pastor so and so did so and so, you know? So there is this this desire, this voice that is not witness, this grief that is not witness of what just occurred.
And sometimes if we haven't stopped to process and work through that, we can easily go into the activism side. Of, you know, this is wrong, and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, but before you know it, we're in the activism side, then maybe the advocate side, and, you know, now we have a podcast, now we have a Instagram account, [00:57:00] now we're on TikTok, and we're saying all the things, not saying that there's anything wrong with that, but taking needed breaks to say, okay, why am I doing this, right, and is this harming me physically, is this harming me mentally and psychologically, to hold all of this, And then go out and be a voice.
Sometimes being a voice and having a greater reach is by resting, is by taking a break, is by getting the therapy, working through a lot of that first. And then if something opens up, then go for it. You know, but I, I sell that to say, you know, how you handled the podcast in the past five years is an example of that.
You asked your body important questions. You included your body and say, Hey. What's up, because we've been through a lot together. What say you and your body and the rest of your faculties were like, you know what, this isn't the time right now, you know, I will work with you. [00:58:00] So you can continue to do the work.
But now you're saying their body is saying, It's time to lay this down. And so I commend you for that because sometimes this work, it can seem so enormous. It's like, but I got to be a voice and people are depending on me and who else is going to talk about spiritual abuse this way. And I've got all these topics that have yet to be talked about.
So I have to keep going. I'm, I'm putting this out to the listeners, some of you out there since the five years you've been there from the beginning to the end and you've been inspired by the guest, you've been inspired by Catherine and you're like, I'm rolling up my sleeves and I'm going to do the thing too.
Not saying don't, but sit with your body. I'm pretty sure your body has been through a lot, listeners, with the, what you've been through and spiritual abuse and see if it's the time, if it's the vehicle. Is this, you know, the format. You know, really consider that. And don't leave your [00:59:00] body behind. Nobody's left behind.
Can I say that? Don't leave your body behind, don, your body behind the work.
Katherine: That's the title of this
Nicole: episode. That's I didn't wanna get. Don't leave your body behind because your body is an integral part of the healing. You know, it's not just our soul, it's not just our spirit, but the trauma is in our bodies and it has a voice and wants to speak to.
So I say that to say, Catherine, thank you for listening to your body. Of course, we will miss you on the podcast streets, but we have five seasons to go and rewind and listen to. And we are grateful for you and what you're doing for yourself and for the nonprofit.
Katherine: Thank you, Nikki. I appreciate it. And I do think that the like that, the episodes, like, they're not, I don't think that they're time sensitive episodes.
I think like those resources are still accessible and they'll still be on the podcast, still be on the [01:00:00] website. And now they'll still be on Apple podcasts and Spotify. And so they're not. Episodes, I don't feel like most of them are episodes where they're like, Oh, they're only relevant for this certain season.
I think that a lot of these, these are like active resources that are going to be continue to be available. And I feel very good about. What resources we've created through this podcast. And I'm very happy that they will still be there. So it's like, we're ending the podcast, but this, this creation still exists.
I appreciate that. Thank you,
Erin: In the light of what Nikki was talking about in terms of you grounding in your body and really knowing yourself and being able to. like bend to the decision your body is making at different points. I am making a huge assumption in this question that you have loved working with the three of us.[01:01:00]
That it has been a joy for you. And I'm saying that because it's been a joy for me. And so as I've been And it's like a true joy, you know, like when joy is real joy and you know that because it becomes a source of healing so my question, it's true. And so my question is about like what's, how do you reflect on, you know, Working alone versus working in a team, what does it mean for you to have a team?
What do you yeah, just like, how do you reflect? I, I, I guess I asked that because I see a lot of folks coming from places of great hurt in community and religious communities and wanting to take it alone and wanting to go solo and wanting to be Mavericks. And I. Validate that, you know, that needs to [01:02:00] happen for safety.
How do you reflect though on finding people who you can work with who are safe and how do you do that? You do that discerning and how do you do that work?
Katherine: Yeah. Whew. There's a lot there. Yeah. Yeah. And I just, and I think of like, yeah, like, and I think of like the idea of like wanting to do it alone and needing to do it alone and like, yeah, that is a season that some people needed to go through.
I think it's really scary. And I think that some of the earlier renditions of tears of Eden, the team wasn't great. And the early people that were involved, I'm not all of them, but a lot of the earlier people.
And I think. Some of that was just like where I was, I was so just out of fundamentalism. And so I picked people who were still in fundamentalism. And so some of those same toxic you know, relational dynamics [01:03:00] still existed within that context of just like passive aggressiveness and, you know, pretending that everything was fine, but you know, it's not.
And, and some of that stuff. And so I think that was some of the. What led to the, do I want to keep doing this? And, and having a good team is so important for enjoying the experience. Oh my gosh, it's so important. But we don't always have the resources to have a good team, to build a good team, to choose a good team.
And, and Some of that is not our fault, like we've been infused with really toxic ways of interacting with people. And, and so, and sometimes we just don't feel safe in community. I know that that was hard for me when I started taking like classes, improv classes. And, and being a part of a class and seeing the same people every week, it felt a little bit like going to church.
And I was, I [01:04:00] had a lot of just like anxiety about just being a part of a group that I saw consistently. And it's sometimes easier to not have that and just have like some one off relationships and kind of go solo because a group and a community and a team could feel really activating. And that's not bad.
And it's also not our fault if we feel that way. And it actually probably means that we were hurt in the context of the community and that's a real thing. So not an answer to the question, I don't think, but just some thoughts. No, it was the answer because I just
Erin: asked you to reflect and you did. And so, yeah, thank you so much.
I won. Yeah, you definitely won.
Brad: This isn't so much a question. It's just a observation of how you answered Nikki's question. By the way, I've been absolutely dumbfounded by the awesome questions of the [01:05:00] board. I think you ladies have done amazing with your questions. Think that your self awareness is head and shoulders above many people I, I meet.
And the reason I say that is within organized religion, people in leadership are taught to the plow through to continue on to push through to it's all for Jesus, right? I mean, like, leave it here because you get the party later or worship later. I mean, like, you know, it's it's a focus on the afterlife more than it is on being healthy here.
I would, I would argue you being able to. Look and step back and say, no, I'm not going to follow that pattern. I think is something a lot of people miss within themselves, because when they leave organized religion, they adhere to those patterns. They just switch it into a different avenue. [01:06:00] Right. But you go, no, I'm going to make sure that pattern never becomes a part of my life.
Nicole: And
Brad: so I just wanted to commend you on your self awareness and recognizing that and something that we all can learn because I've seen people on Instagram that they are trying to heal, but they go from one extreme and religion to fighting and doing the same thing. That they were doing religion against religion, the same methods and everything, and they never heal, but you show healing.
And so I just appreciate that. And I appreciate that vulnerability, that display of wisdom.
Katherine: That means so much. Thank you so much. I really appreciate that.
Nicole: , Brad, you brought up some great points and, you know, I think we can all look at that and, and look at, like I said, Catherine's example of, Hey, you know, I want to take care of me in the midst of [01:07:00] trying to help others. I don't want to lose myself. As I'm helping others, you know I heard someone often say there's enough trauma in the world for everybody to have a place to, to try to help and work and see people recover, but not at the expense of us, you know, losing ourselves.
So as we're, as we're winding down. I think, you know, speaking on behalf of the board and the listeners like I said earlier, we're just honored for your sacrifice over these past five years. You know, even the times you had to stay up late or you lost some sleep or, you know, like the times you were ready to give up.
We're grateful that you didn't in the five years. And even now, we don't look at this as a giving up. This is a necessary ending, both for you physically, mentally, emotionally. and professionally. You know, thank you for what you have done to help so many, so many survivors out there and podcast world.
If there was one last message that you could [01:08:00] give the listeners the guests that may still be listening, even though they were guests at one point, what would you say? What would you leave? And this last episode to, to the listeners out there.
Katherine: And it's okay to cry
Yeah. I think I think, I mean maybe I'll just talk to myself of just like , just like, just hang out here. Like, just stay present. Enjoy this moment. We didn't talk about the future. And I think that that's good. Like we don't have to, we don't have to end this, but don't worry. We have all of these wonderful things coming.
Like we can, we can just be in this place. So, you know, saying goodbye, ending a season, celebrating. Being together, being present, reflecting, and that's enough. We don't have to come up with a grand vision and plan for [01:09:00] right now. That's that's at the board meeting in August, for now we could just be present and I think for anyone who is listening, whether you're joining us, just For the first time, maybe, or you have been an active listener or you are a friend that I have texted this episode too, because I want you to listen to it.
That it's, if there's some sadness associated with this, there's some sadness for me. Absolutely. Like judge, we can just kind of hang out with that and hang out with those emotions and that feeling, and we don't have to do anything with it. You can just be. That's what I'm feeling right now.
Nicole: Okay. Well, we love that. Just being, it might be foreign to us coming out of the spaces we've come out of, you know, Brad, I love Aaron's face. I wish I
Katherine: could capture that in audio. I didn't
Nicole: see it. I didn't see
Erin: it. It's so good. That was so good. No, [01:10:00]
Nicole: I'm, you know, like Brad just said, we're always in the futuristic, you know, it's very hard for us to be in the present, but I like what you're saying, Catherine, you know, just be.
And, you know, even though Catherine didn't go into what we, what we're doing next. I will, I personally encourage the listeners, if you've not joined to be a monthly subscriber and you know, you came in listening to the podcast season three, season four, or maybe even season five maybe you can go back and, and, and, you know, become a subscriber to support tears of Eden.
We're doing a lot of shifting because we want tears of Eden to be here for the long haul. But there are a lot of great episodes back in the archive episodes that like, you know, Catherine said they're timeless. So wherever you are in your journey, I'm pretty sure you can glean from a lot of stuff that was poured out in those podcasts.
So think about it, think about becoming a monthly subscriber. It will support the work, but it will also [01:11:00] support you at the same time. Brad, Aaron, anything you want to leave the listeners with. As we get ready to close out.
Brad: Well, white man has talked enough.
Katherine: That's another good title for the episode.
Nicole: That's it. Done. Done.
Erin: I never have talked enough. I have one more thing to say. The, the word that comes to my mind listening to you all today is gift. Keep thinking about you being a gift to this space and the, what wider world of spiritual abuse and, and religious trauma, Katherine.
And what I also hear you say is that doing the podcast has been a gift to you. There's been something at moments where you've been able to use it for your own sense of growth and awareness. And that's been a gift, which is awesome. And so, yeah, just to reiterate what Nikki has invited all of you to do I ask that if Years of Eden has been a gift to you, or Uncertain has been a gift to you, that you would [01:12:00] give back and consider being a monthly donor, because this work is going to continue on and on.
And sadly, we have a lot more work to do. There are a lot more people who need help. To feel what we've all felt, which is the sense of risk, frustration, community, and and that there's life after racial abuse and religious trauma.
Katherine: I love y'all and apply to be on the board. You get to be a part of this.
There's a, there's a way to apply on the website. Just go to tearsofeden. org slash team. Thank you for wanting to have a moment to celebrate. And having that idea and being willing to make this time, it's very meaningful to me to have this really amazing job.
Brad: Thank you, Catherine, for everything you've done. Yeah,
Nicole: this was great. Brad, you are hilarious. I'm coming up to New York and we're going to go grab a drink or something because you couldn't make this crack up.
Come on up and we'll go
Brad: out on the town. We will burn it
Katherine: down. That's right. [01:13:00] Board
Brad: retreat in New York City. Here we go. Yes, please.
Katherine: Do you live in New York City, right Brad?
Brad: Just outside of it. Just outside of Brooklyn and Queens.
Katherine: All right. We need to Do we need to do a retreat to Yes, please. To New York.
Nicole: Oh, we'll. We'll, we will eat like kings and queens. Be
Erin: amazing.
Nicole: Yes. I love
Erin: food.
Nicole: Oh, it's so good.
Brad: That's, see, I knew Erin. I loved you for a reason there. It's See
Erin: the food. We both love it.
Brad: There we
Erin: go. Like a good food plate. I love food too.
Nicole: Especially all the, all the fasting I did in those colds. I'm like, give me food. I don't want to hear about fasting right now. Unless it's for medical reasons. New York City is the place to be for food.
That's right. That's right. Oh, I can't wait. We'll hit the town. Mm-Hmm. . Okay. Are you
Erin: guys joking or not? Because I really [01:14:00] wanna do this. I listen, I wanna
Nicole: do this. Listen, I'm gonna do this too.
Erin: Let's do
Katherine: New York in the fall. The fall is great. Oh, it's so
Brad: beautiful. .
Erin: Yeah, let's go to New York City in the fall. How about
Katherine: Easter next year? Just kidding.
Erin: Yeah, that sounds better. Sorry, Bishop.
Brad: You go back to him and you say, Hey, listen, I got a better
Erin: offer.
Brad: I can, I can do it. Let's go.
Katherine: Sounds like so much fun.
Nicole: I love it. So Catherine, how do you, how do you feel about how today went? It was great.
Katherine: Thank you. Okay. Thank you so much. Thank you for having the idea, Aaron. And thank you all for being here. It was fun. I appreciate it. Needed, needed the time to just kind of sit with things and commemorate. And it was nice to do it with people. Thank you all, everybody.
Nicole: You're welcome. Have lovely day. Yes, thank you everybody. Stay safe. Bye. Stay safe.
Erin: Lots of [01:15:00] love. Bye bye. Bye bye.
For the final time. This podcast is produced, hosted, and edited by me, Catherine Spearing. If you would like to support the ongoing work of Tears of Eden, please visit tears of eden.org/support to give a donation.
Thank you to all of our amazing listeners, all the best and signing off for now.
-
This is one of the most important and practical episodes you will likely ever listen to! As more people speak out publicly, sharing their stories of abuse in the church, more and more churches, denominations, and pastors are growing litigious, further abusing victims in civil court. If you're thinking of going public with your story, LISTEN TO THIS EPISODE!
Featuring Jenai Auman, author of the recently released book Othered.
We'll Cover:Question to ask yourself before going public with your story
Things to consider before going public
Tips to mitigate your risk
HOW to prepare IF you get sued
What to expect from lawyers
And More
* Disclaimer: This is NOT legal Advice! *
Read this article, written by Jenai, that inspired Katherine to ask her to talk about this on the podcast. This is seriously one episode Katherine has REALLY wanted to do.
Jenai wrote a companion article with examples of corroboration here.Jenai Auman is a Filipina American writer, artist, and author of Othered. She draws from her experience and education to write on healing, hope, and holistic spiritual formation practices.
Looking for a trauma-trained mental health professional to work with? www.traumaresolutionandrecovery.com/meet-our-practitioners
Sign up for Tears of Edenâs newsletter to receive updates on the release of Katherine Spearingâs upcoming book: www.tearsofeden.org/about
Uncertain is a podcast of Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If youâre enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus.
You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/support
To get in touch with us please email [email protected]
Follow on Instagram @uncertainpodcast
Transcript is Unedited for Typos and Misspellings
[00:00:00] I'm Katherine Spearing and this is Uncertain.
Starting in April of this year, I began partnering with Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery, working as a practitioner for this organization. This organization's CEO is Dr. Laura Anderson. You may be familiar with her. She's been on the pod a couple of different times. She's also the author of the book, When Religion Hurts You.
She's awesome. She's the boss. I work with her and a bunch of other really great practitioners over there. If you are looking for mental health professional, a trained, highly qualified, highly experienced mental health professional that can help you navigate religious trauma, spiritual abuse, and all of the sub categories that fall beneath that.
I encourage you to check out Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. I am currently accepting a few new clients, and there are several other practitioners that are also accepting clients. I know that's a big thing that comes up a lot in the religious trauma spiritual abuse [00:01:00] world is folks just really struggling to find a mental health professional that understands religious trauma and spiritual abuse and the nuances and complexities of the subculture of evangelicalism and church culture.
So if that is something that you are looking for, I encourage you to check them out. The link will be in the show notes. Also in April of this year, I signed a book deal with Lake Dry Books. My book, Surprise Surprise is about spiritual abuse. It will be coming out in sometime in 2025.
Date is yet to be determined, so I encourage you to sign up for Tears of Eden's mailing list for updates on the release of that book. The need that this book is going to fill in the world of religious trauma and spiritual abuse recovery, that is something that I see lacking in the
It's the need of making the connection between the theology of evangelicalism that actually leads [00:02:00] to the abuse happening. I'm not seeing that a lot in the literature today. Our guest a couple of weeks ago, Krista Brown, she made that connection in her memoir, Baptist Land. But outside of that, it's not really a common thing that folks are addressing.
So I felt like it was a pretty important subject to navigate in my book. It's going to be mostly. Following my journey of recovery, but it's not a memoir and it is also going to be pulling some stuff from the work with Tears of Eden. There are direct quotes from podcasts that you may have listened to
So sign up for the mailing list so that you can get updates about that. Today's guest is my friend and colleague Janai Allman, and I am so excited about this episode. This is an episode that I have been wanting to do for a couple years. And a few weeks before Janai had, and I had this episode scheduled to record, she sent out a Substacks article about the very subject [00:03:00] that we're going to be talking about today.
We are going to talk about her book that just came out, Othered, and we are going to talk about the book a little bit as well, But Janai graciously agreed to have this conversation with me because we both learned a lot of things about telling our stories publicly and how to stay safe and also make sure we get to say our side of the story and those two things are super important on the other side of abuse.
So very excited about this episode. I hope this is one that people will re listen to over and over and over again, and I am so excited to be able to include this as a resource for Tears of Eden and for folks who encounter Tears of Eden. Janai Almon is a Filipina American writer and artist who draws from her years in church leadership as well as her trauma informed training to write on healing, hope, and the way forward.
She is passionate about providing language to readers so they can find a faith inspiring that freeze. She received her bachelor's degree in behavioral health science, and is currently pursuing a [00:04:00] master's in spiritual formation at Northeastern Seminary. Janiyah lives in Houston, Texas with her husband, Tyler, and their sons, Quinn and Graham.
Here is my interview with Janiyah Allman
Katherine: Hello, Janai.
Jenai: Hi. How are you? I'm really good. I'm so glad we're doing this.
Katherine: Yes, me too. I'm very excited about this episode and the subject that we are going to talk about today because it is one, as you and I have, talked about prior to the episode is something that is a big discussion within the survivor community for folks who are wanting to go public with their stories and discussing how to protect ourselves from the potential for a civil lawsuit.
It is not an uncommon thing and it's becoming more common like I'm, I'm seeing it happen a lot. You just went through experience of writing a book before we [00:05:00] jumped on, you talked about going through a legal review when you were writing your book. So everything that we're sharing today is going to just be to help people have some awareness about this experience of going public with your story and protecting yourself because you want to, you want to protect yourself.
As we jump in, I definitely want to highlight your book . So give folks a just rundown of what your book is and why you wanted to write this book.
Jenai: Yeah, I, so my book is a faith oriented book, so I know that some people who might listen to Uncertain, they might be in varying degrees of faith, or totally deconverted altogether, I make space for the deconverted, and but also, I wrote this space reorienting, or I wrote the book reorienting, like, how I posture myself to Like the stories in the Bible and I weave in personal narrative.
So this is what I experienced. How does that, how is that at all in accord with scripture? How, and it isn't [00:06:00] a lot of what I experienced while working on staff at a church, one of those churches that are often in those podcasts where they talk about the main guy who started the affiliation yelling at people.
Like, I think people, I was a part of a very high control, very toxic masculinity church planting network. And I was ostracized and kicked out essentially othered in from my church because I wouldn't, I wouldn't shut up and I wouldn't, I wouldn't stop advocating for myself. And so I wrote othered.
To tell my story and to essentially provide a road map to this is why I still am a Christian. I kind of detangled my experience of that space from the harm I experienced. And I have found a renewed relationship in God. However, it doesn't land per like I'm not in a church today. I'm not and some people, they are so mad that I'm not in a church today.
Which, that's like a whole other thing. And then other people are going to be mad that
Katherine: you still identify as a [00:07:00] Christian. Yeah.
Jenai: Yeah. Like I'm not in a church. I still identify as a Christian. I'm in seminary. So that makes it like even kookier for people. And, and so I sit in a weird place where even as I tell my story, sometimes I still feel very othered because I haven't landed where other people wanted me to land.
But that's kind of the whole point. Like I want people to feel free to land wherever, even my, like, I don't mention my husband very often, but even my husband has landed somewhere different in faith. And that's like much more toward deconversion. And so I hold space for a lot of different people. So anyway, I wrote other, I share, it's not a memoir.
So it doesn't tell even people get mad whenever I say, I don't say everything that happened in the book, and I think we're going to talk about all of that and maybe why I didn't do that. A lot of that is just to protect myself. I think a lot of people want that, though, and they don't understand the risk that goes into telling everything like in a memoir style.
I just use [00:08:00] pieces of the story. Like, my story is not up for debate. But I just used these instances, instances and moments to say, here's where something in me fractured and I had to find my way back to myself again. So yeah, I'm really glad to share.
Katherine: Absolutely. And I really appreciate you sort of setting things up and just kind of letting folks know like this is where I have landed.
Yeah, I had space for other people for where they have landed. I think that's really helpful because I think a lot of folks from evangelicalism will, like, come on and talk about you know, what they believe. And there is this, like, very subtle agenda of, like, I want you to believe the same thing as me which comes straight out of, These toxic evangelical cultures of like, we can't interact with you unless you believe the same thing.
And so I really appreciate that. You've set it up that way and that you have written the book that way
pertaining to the subject that we're going to [00:09:00] discuss today. What did you, what made you feel like it was important to write this story? in a public way and put it in a book and put it on all of the other public writing that you have written.
You may already know this, but
the uncertain podcast is the affiliate podcast of tears at Eden, a nonprofit that serves as a community and resource for survivors of spiritual abuse. This podcast and the work of tears are supported by donations from generous listeners. Like you. If you're enjoying this podcast, please consider giving a donation by using the link in the show notes or visiting tears of eaton.org/support.
You can also support the podcast by rating and leaving a review and sharing on social media. If you're not already following us, please follow us on Facebook at tears of Eden and Instagram at uncertain podcast. Thanks so much for listening.
And now back to the show.
Katherine: what made you feel like it was important to write this story? in a public way and put it in a book and put [00:10:00] it on all of the other public writing that you have written.
Jenai: Yeah. Well, it was, I can imagine cause there was a lot of back and forth between me and the leadership of the church of like, what was wrong, what wasn't wrong. And, and I was watching them and this is probably something you, you resonate with also, but like watching them make it make sense in their heads, like take this really.
dumb argument that they've made and they've kind of loaded it with a lot of Christian speak to somehow justify like whatever conclusion that they came to. So in short, I was terminated from my position. They never used the word terminated though. They always used transition out. That was kind of a part of the The Christian speak, you know, yes, it made it sound like more polite to them as if what they weren't what they were doing to me was not impolite or like rude or loving.
They were like, Oh, we're just transitioning her out. We're just like jet [00:11:00] gently pushing her out and telling her to shut the hell up. I'm sorry. I don't know if this is a you're allowed to pass.
Katherine: Yes.
Jenai: And so Yeah, I was like, you use these grace laced words and so I kind of started fighting back with no, you're not supposed to do this isn't so in many ways the book and the book's not an argument.
It's not formatted as an argument. It is essentially kind of how I kept fighting back. And I don't even say this in the book. It's it was my resistance and how my resistance played out over the course of time Using the very scriptures that they were trying to use against me and I was saying no, no, no, no, no Like
Katherine: yeah,
Jenai: you know I think a big a big banner scripture and it's not in the book at all Ezekiel 34 like you are feeding on the sheep I am a sheep that was in your care and the ways in which I was treated wasn't okay And you're supposed to hear my voice And you didn't just not hear me.
You like silenced me. And [00:12:00] so writing the book was pivotal for me because I think many other people are having to deal with that too. That doublespeak, duplicitousness. And they don't know how to combat it. And for whatever reason, maybe it's my stubborn, Filipina nature or maybe it's a little bit of like Texas stubborn in me as well, but I was like you You will not overpower me.
You have done everything to like push me out, but I I will Like there was something stubborn in me that was like, I will dig down. Cause I know something in this is not right. And I'm going to keep speaking up. So yeah, I thought it was super pivotal to give people language. And I think some of that says that in my bio, like I want to provide people with language.
I don't know what it is. I don't want to tell people what to do, but I want to give them language to say, this is what my resistance looks like, and
Katherine: I
Jenai: hope and healing, I think healing and resistance are both and and I think this is what you can envision for yourself also.
Katherine: Right. I love that healing and resistance are both [00:13:00] and and for whatever reason that someone chooses to go public with their story.
Part of that reason could just could be the healing reason like that. That is that feels important to me as a part of my healing. I need this story to be public. It could be just to teach people as you, as you chose to do just to sort of show people. Here are. other ways to interpret these things that these power hoarders are just, you know, funneling at you and there's so many of them and they're so powerful and they're so convincing and they're so nice when they say it, it's really hard to, to fight back even just in our own minds.
So there's so many reasons why someone feels that it's important. to go public with their story. And what we're going to talk about today, folks, is how to protect yourself if you decide to go [00:14:00] public with your story. Disclaimer at the very beginning. Neither Janai nor I are legal counsel, we are not lawyers, we have life experience that we are going to share, we are going to give recommendations, but we encourage everyone to do your own research, look into this yourself, know what the risks are because there are risks.
When you put your story of being abused in public and make the best wise decision for you and your health and where you are in your story. So with that disclaimer, we're going to kind of talk about two different parts in this episode. One, we're just going to talk about ways that you can safely tell your story that might mitigate your opportunities or the potential risk of being sued by someone.
Yeah. That said. Someone can file a civil lawsuit for anything. They don't have to have corroborating evidence or anything. [00:15:00] They can make up a total lie to file a civil lawsuit. All they need is Money, really, that's really the only thing that they need. And so we're never going to be able to completely eliminate the risk for being sued, but there are some things that we have learned on our journeys that can help us navigate and protect ourselves in the event that that actually happens.
So that's going to be the part two of this episode. jumping right in. If you have some things that you have learned in your process about ways to phrase things, how to phrase things, things that you learned while writing your book of, okay, I can't say that, but I can say this, would love to hear just a rundown of some stuff that you have learned in your process of telling your story publicly.
Jenai: Yeah, yeah. Well, and I'll say sometimes I share parts of my story on Instagram and no [00:16:00] one's really policing what I say on Instagram. But there was much more kind of like being cautious and careful in a publication, like a book. And so just before I wrote. Or finished the manuscript of Othered. I think it was Prince Harry's memoir.
Yeah, his memoir came out. And I, and I was like, I want to read that. And I just read it before even finishing the manuscript. Just because I wanted to see, how does he tell this? And not have the power of the throne come down at him. And if anyone, I began paying attention, I mean the story is wild, but also began paying attention to how he told it, or how the ghost writer was telling it for him.
And I don't know if anyone else has read it, but there's kind of like, sometimes you read like, him saying, did this happen? He's like self doubting. Yes. In, in the book. Did you pick up on that also? Huh.
Katherine: Yeah.
Jenai: Like he was like, I, am I remembering this correctly? Almost as [00:17:00] if like, you can't come after me.
I'm telling you that it's just my memory. It's just
Katherine: memory.
Jenai: So I learned that it is different to write something as 100 percent fact, even though there are things in my book that were 100 percent fact. This is what happened, but because I didn't have evidence or I didn't have like a screenshot or a recording of the meeting to say this is 100 percent fact, I had to say.
And this is such, it's weaker. It makes for weaker writing, but it protects you more. I had to say, I remember this person saying,
Katherine: yeah.
Jenai: Whereas before I had it written in dialogue, like so and so said this to me, and I responded in this way, and they said, we need this corroborated, or we need evidence, or you need to re write it and say, I remember.
this happening. I remember this happening. And I thought, man, like, it kind of sucks a little bit. It sucks the, like the, the wind from your sails. But I remember that being a [00:18:00] pivotal a pivotal point in like, Oh, then there were some things I do. And I, I remember, I don't know if anyone's in the middle of anything.
And I'm in a one party state, meaning as long as one party in the conversation consents to a recording. You can record the conversation. And so long as I was a party, I, I, I was like, I give myself consent to record this conversation, something in my gut before I even left my position, something in my gut said, Start recording these conversations.
And so I did. You're going to have to look up your own local laws to see if you're a one party or a two party state. Sometimes you need consent from everyone in the meeting before you can record. I know California is like that and maybe others. Yeah. And so I remember hitting record. And feeling a little bit bad about that.
I'm like, this is, this is, this seems weird and creepy on my part at the time, but there was something in my gut [00:19:00] that was telling me, record this conversation. And I remember texting a fellow coworker who was also experiencing the same like mess that I was. And I texted her and I said, is it wrong of me to record this conversation?
And she goes, Oh my gosh, yes. And I thought it was wrong. Yes. She, even she like, even in who, And even she couldn't, cause it feels that creepy. Yeah. Like even the people who are in it with you might think, oh, this isn't gracious of you. But I didn't listen to her and I thought I was going to keep recording.
And now, like if I talk to her now. And I told her, Hey, remember when you told me I should stop recording? I didn't, she would probably say, I'm so glad you didn't listen to me. Right. I'm so glad you just kept doing it. And so I, I did have evidence. I did have evidence. I had screenshots. Instagram messages, or not Instagram, my goodness.
IPhone, iMessage.
Katherine: Yeah.
Jenai: Like they have like these settings where it says, you know, delete my messages after a month, delete 'em after a year or whatever. I [00:20:00] turn that feature off, so I have a ton of like, storage on my phone from all my stored messages, but that's really so that I have all the evidence.
And so I took screenshots. Yeah. And I put all of that in a folder to send off. For those that don't know, when you read a, when you write a book, they usually do what's called a permissions read. Meaning if you added stories of other people your editor will go through and read to see who do you need permission from.
And they'll give you like a form to send to that friend who says, I give permission for this story to be in the book. And for me, I thought, well, I don't know how this is going to work. I'm not going to get permission from anyone to tell the story.
Katherine: Yeah,
Jenai: and they emailed me back and they were like, congratulations, you don't need to get permission.
However, we do need to do a corroboration read or a legal read of the book, and this is what our lawyer has flagged as like comments in the document for like, this is where you need [00:21:00] corroboration or change the word or evidence and Yeah, so that's kind of like an overview of the process.
Katherine: And corroboration is another person saying, yes, that.
Yes,
Jenai: yes, that happened. Even, even though you don't have evidence, if someone else can say, yes, this happened, I was there, I witnessed it. I know that that is exactly how that it played out. They are kind of like your witness. It is not evidence. It's your witness.
Katherine: Yeah, absolutely. And that is. For them and for you in the event that you do get sued.
We already have this ready, we have to go, we have someone backing this up, we have someone that has verified that this is true for that again doesn't necessarily prevent the lawsuit from happening, but it is stuff that can just protect you in the event. Some other things that are helpful that you are.
Probably alluding to saying things like allegedly, or it is my opinion [00:22:00] appeared to me that X, Y said this, or it seemed as if, and that feels so weird saying that when it's like your story and it happened to you, but it's also just kind of acknowledging. A human limitation. So just kind of putting it in that category.
And, and memory memory does change over time. It doesn't mean that it wasn't 100 percent true, but it we're just we're just kind of acknowledging human beings have limitations and I am a human being, and it's and it's protection. It's okay to protect yourself. You are not being dishonest, but it is, it does feel so weird, especially when we come out of these environments where we have been silenced and our story and our narrative gets taken by other people and twisted and reframed.
We just want to say it like this happened and this person was so horrible, awful, blah, blah, blah, blah. And there are [00:23:00] spaces to do that. And. Maybe write the first draft with like every expletive you ever wanted to use, get it all out and then go back. and adjust it for public consumption. Maybe wait a few days.
And so yes, those emotions need to be felt. Those emotions need to be gotten out and you also want to protect yourself. So both of those things can happen. And the importance of just the reality that the story is out there and there may be some things that just feel a little weird to say them a certain way, but it has a story out there.
How do you navigate that of like, this wasn't the most ideal way to write this but it was the safest way to write this. How do you navigate that experience?
Jenai: Yeah. I remember In, I think it's in the first chapter of the book, I am certain it's in the first chapter of the book, because I start the book with a story [00:24:00] of my first day of work that started with my executive director yelling Or, you know, whatever your definition of, yeah, I think it was yelling I called it not yelling, but he was raising his voice because, you know, there is no, I can't track the decibel level of what he's saying, and like, I don't want that to be a whole argument, but even that, I kind of cushioned and said, He wasn't yelling, but he was raising his voice to the degree that everyone in the building could hear him.
You know what I mean?
Katherine: Yeah, and so people are going to be like, he was yelling.
Jenai: Yeah, he was yelling. And so it's subversive little things like that. And so. I, I kind of cushioned where I could, but then later in the chapter when I, my first chapter is kind of about giving people terms, because people use spiritual abuse in different ways, or church hurt in different ways, and so I kind of tracked with like, this is how I'm using them for the book.
So I tell that [00:25:00] story, and then I share kind of my definition of these terms, and because I put some cushion in the story later when I talk about that experience, when I name what happened in that experience, I say, this was spiritually abusive. And I just say it. I felt like I had the confidence to say it there, because I had the allegedly in the cushion.
I didn't, I didn't have to write this was a, I alleged that this was spiritual abuse. I could just say it with punch and power later in the chapter. And so there are kind of subversive ways like that, that you as a writer, or even if you tell your story because I know some people might be Not everyone's writing, some people are podcasters, some people are sharing their stories in different ways and so there are there are subversive ways to tell the truth, such that you are clever, and you can protect yourself as well.
There's something, some verse in Matthew that's like, you know, be as wise as a serpent. But be as gentle as a dove [00:26:00] and I think I do that in the book like I had to navigate this I wanted the book to be compassionate, but I also wanted to be clever and I wanted to show like I could still tell my story and so yeah, there's places you can put cushion when you need to.
And then if you're, if you're clever with your writing, the imagery and or the, you know, the imagination of the reader will fill in the gaps. Thanks. Yeah,
Katherine: but then you are still protected.
Jenai: Yeah.
Katherine: Another, another thing that feels weird is when we're writing about someone who's not a public figure changing names, changing physical identifiers, that also feels super weird.
Cause we're like, we just want them to know that it was this person. But the reality is that most people don't know that person. And so thinking of it as a wider. public facing thing rather than the 5, 10, 20, 100, or a thousand people within that space who would know who that is. And that vindication that we [00:27:00] would get from making it obvious who the person is versus protecting ourselves and, and just changing their name, changing physical identifiers.
That's different if it is a public figure. When it's a public figure, you can phrase it. a way to phrase it is, or a way to, to angle it or approach it is to write it as if it is for the public good. Like, Hey, a lot of people are asking me about this person. And so I'm sharing this story so that the public will know that this happened, or it isn't, it is important to me that people know that this, you know, public figure.
You know, Robbie Zacharias is a predator, you know, like, like stuff like that, where you are, you are saying you're doing it for the public good. And in essence, you are. So that is another way where they, again, they can still see you for [00:28:00] defamation and libel, all of the things. But when you're approaching it as I'm doing this for the, like, Oh, I'm just doing this for the public.
And that's what, that's what journalists do. Like they, that's why they write, like, you know, Or that's the ethics that they are supposed to follow of this is important information. This is truth that the public needs to be aware of. And so that's another angle to approach it as and even a way to kind of approach the story as a, as a whole, as you, you did of It's important that people know there's a different way to interpret these verses and making sure that the public knows that there are other ways to say this.
And that's another angle. And
Jenai: that's why I actually don't use names or even fake names at all in my book. And I think that's a reason why I think people approach it. They're like, this is Jani's story. And I was like, this is really the story of my resistance. It's not the [00:29:00] story of like everything that happened.
And so I think that might, like, you know, I think people want to hear like the nitty gritty and I. I would have had to use so much more mental and emotional labor if I was telling stories of how they allegedly kept using my social security number for their church credit card 18 months after I was fired.
You know, like, I, I would have to, like, it would take so long. So much more mental labor for me to talk about, like how financial fraud came about or how, how all these other things happened and changing names. And so that's why I was like, I can't write a memoir. I'm not a memoirist.
Katherine: Mm-Hmm, .
Jenai: But I can tell my story of my resistance and in doing it, framing it that way, I could tell pieces of my story and then not use names.
And so I say things like executive director. Yeah, or a senior pastor or lead pastor. And so the people who [00:30:00] are there who read the book will know exactly who I'm talking about. And another way that I've protected myself, and I don't know if a lot of people know this, is that I actually helped plant the church.
And what I mean, what I say, what I mean when I say that is, In Texas, when you file for a non profit or corporate, a non profit corporation status with our state, you have to have three signing directors to kind of legalize this organization with, you know, the Austin. the state capitol. And I was one of the signers.
So there, it was me and two other guys as signing directors that that stuff is open access. So if you go and Google that stuff, you find my name connected to that church. One way that I've protected myself is I don't write under my full name, Jani Amen. That's my first and my middle name. And When you, I mean, they could still probably find, if someone digs enough, [00:31:00] they can find it.
But I can say I put, like, measures in place to not be connected. I don't name the church, that's another thing. I don't talk about even the neighborhood that it was in in the book. So people can't geographically locate it. So, in many ways, I have hemmed myself in from further harm that they could do, and I've just, I've provided cushion in other ways, not just in the book, but in how I approach telling my story, and a pen name, that's not deceptive to readers, that's like, pen names Yeah, pen names are, yeah, it's like industry standard people I mean, that's happened, pen names have happened for a long time.
And so I didn't, I'm still writing under my genuine names. I'm just writing under my first and my middle name. Which is what a lot of people do. So yeah, that was just another way I protected myself.
Katherine: Yeah. And then another [00:32:00] small detail that could play a role is the names of states lawsuits are, are usually organized by a state and it's called jurisdiction.
So if it's if it's possible to remove even state identifiers and just use the area of the country or change the state or whatever, then that just that ties things up. Legally within the context of of a lawsuit and can make it like if it's outside of the, the person who did the wrong, allegedly did the wrong outside of their state and they have to sue across state lines or, or something like that.
And, and there's no, indication that it actually happened within the state, within the writing then that can just make it a little bit trickier to file a lawsuit and to, to get it [00:33:00] through. And so it just makes it a little bit more challenging. So those are just some other things to consider as you're, as you're writing.
I know when I write about my family, I always say the South. I never say the state. I always say the South. I've started doing very recently. And even if people ask me like in person where I grew up, I just say the South and they'll be like, where? And I was like, I just say the South. Just cause I don't want that connection to a specific state for those jurisdiction reasons.
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Katherine: All right. Anything more we want to say about that before we jump into the experience of. working with lawyers and what what might happen on the other side of a lawsuit.
Jenai: No, I, I think that kind of tidies up the I will say I have a very unique name.
Not every, if you're like a Rachel Smith, You know, you probably have, if someone Googles you they're gonna find so many other Rachel Smiths. And so with the pen name thing, I don't want anyone to freak out or feel like they have to change their name, especially if your name means a lot to you. So please, I just want to be like really sensitive to that.
As a Jani Amon, I, you know, or just a Jani in general, they're going to find me. I'm going to be on page one of the Google there, there are more of us than I realize, but the, there aren't as many who are public on the internet. And so, yeah, I would say that's the only thing I can say a Houston church and everyone's like
Katherine: Yeah. We'll find you. People find you. And I mean, that is something that you can do. It's not, you know, [00:35:00] It's a it's an option for for protection using using the the pen name.
And I think, as you said, if it's. very intentional that we're not trying to like go after this person and take them down. It, it helps. Those are just little things that can help. As we jump into talking about the bum, bum, bum, bum, what if you do get sued? Let's talk about some ways that We can protect ourselves in the event that that happens.
It is not uncommon and just want to let folks know from where I sit in the work that I do, I am seeing, if you're talking about the spiritual abuse space and going public about abuse that pastors have done or denominations or whatever, I am watching pastors and denominations and organizations become more litigious.
They are, they are fighting back. By filing civil suits. [00:36:00] Now it is my opinion. We need to also be fighting back and filing civil suits. But when you've been abused, a lot of times you don't want to do that. And that is it's over for you. You are moving on and health and you do not want to interact with that person anymore.
But the, the increase of lawsuits and civil suits from. Pastors suing folks who have accused them of abuse that is growing and I project is probably going to continue to grow as they fight back and they lose power. So it is not. a unlikely event if you start going public and start talking about specific people especially and specific denominations especially.
Very sad, just going to acknowledge that right here that that even needs to be a reality but as you absolutely quoted at the beginning Be Wise is Wise as serpents and gentle as doves and this is just a way to be [00:37:00] real wise when we start going public with our stories. Now, one thing to just be aware of, of I don't know that a lot of people know this but you can get Insurance for yourself for things like liable defamation, slander.
And if you, I recommend talking to a local broker in your city and just say, Hey, this is what I'm doing. I have a podcast or I put a lot of stuff on my website or I'm writing a book and I need coverage. What are your recommendations? The brokerage will do, broker will do the research for you and likely present you with some options of things that you can purchase for your own protection.
When you do that, when you have insurance and if these, you know, alleged abusers know that you have insurance, it does increase the likelihood that you're going to get sued. And the reason why is because if you get [00:38:00] sued and you have no money there, you file bankruptcy and they get nothing. If you, if they see you and have insurance, then they are increasing the likelihood that they are going to get money because insurances can just decide.
This is, it's more expensive to defend this case than to settle this case and they can make that decision that they're going to settle instead of defend. That's just a nuance of how the system works. It does not mean that you are admitting fault. You never have to admit fault. But if an insurance company is covering you, then they might make that choice on your behalf.
They can do that. And lawyers know that and so if you have insurance, it does increase. slightly increase your chance of getting sued. However, the alternative is basically you don't have insurance and then you then not only are going through the horrendous [00:39:00] emotional stress of a lawsuit, you're also having to pay for it.
So that is just something to consider. As you are going public with your story and something very simple that you can do to protect yourself. You can add it on to your renter's insurance. You can add it on to your mortgage. I think it's a, if it's something that you do regularly, like for you and I, or for myself forming an LLC, forming a nonprofit so that you have the insurance to cover that specific entity and you do all of the work under that entity.
So then you are not on the hook should something happen because it's under that entity. Those are just real weird nuances and something that most people are never going to have to know or be aware of. But for this particular thing of going public about our story of abuse is something for folks to be aware of.
Would you like to share about what someone might expect [00:40:00] when, if they have to interact with lawyers?
Jenai: Yes. And that was hard. That was hard. I don't remember if we said this during the recording, but lawyers are not. Dental? Yes. They're not trauma informed.
They don't really, their concern is, Like winning and not necessarily, I mean, that's kind of like what I feel like with pastors, pastors are so many pastors, not all pastors are concerned about like upping the numbers. And sometimes the spiritual abuse happens because they look at the metrics and not at the people.
And in many ways, I kind of felt some of that with like,
Katherine: Hey,
Jenai: just want to make sure that they win, not necessarily that this person is cared for. That's someone else's job. I will say I do not have a lawyer. I had, I worked with the lawyer, the legal representation with my publisher, so when I, when they did that permissions read, that was [00:41:00] not a permissions read, and they transferred it over to a legal read the editor read through, but then the editor also had the lawyer read through.
And the lawyer went through and commented on the document certain things. Sometimes I don't know if I was supposed to see these comments or if they were supposed to scrub them. And I, I, because in reading some of their comments, they're trying to think about how can this writer say this? So that really so that everyone is protected, but sometimes they write it as if the writer did something wrong here and it just lands on you kind of hard.
And getting the email that said, you know, we need, we need you to provide corroboration. It felt a lot like, They don't believe me.
Katherine: Yeah. You have to prove that this was true.
Jenai: Yes.
Katherine: Yeah. And
Jenai: that I knew it was coming from other people I had spoken with and other writers and authors that I know of. I knew that this was coming, so it didn't [00:42:00] hit me too hard.
Katherine: Mm-Hmm. . I
Jenai: can imagine that it might if other, other people aren't experiencing that, and I think. Oh, I'm so grateful for my agent. So if someone, if you can work with an agent some people say find whatever agent that you can find. But really my encouragement is if you can land with an agent, not just somebody who will have you, but someone who will have your back.
Katherine: Yeah, that
Jenai: is pretty pivotal. And she was sensitive enough. She also, that was another thing, all my emails between me and my publisher go to my agent as well. My agent is a part of an agency who has a lawyer at the head. And so he kind of, he's not my agent, but he's connected. And so I, I feel very kept at that particular, like, and held.
Katherine: Yeah at
Jenai: that agency, but my agent was sensitive enough that she got the email and before I responded to the email Or before I even texted her she texted me I want to say five [00:43:00] minutes after the email hit my inbox and she said I want you to know This doesn't mean that they don't believe you. They're all everyone's just concerned about making sure The book is protected that you're protected.
This doesn't mean that they don't believe you and I You I knew that it was just really nice to have someone else tell me that. And I know that depending on, I think self publishing is a totally valid journey especially after going through publishing. So not everyone has an agent, but even if you can get someone in your corner, who's a part of walking through the process with you, even if it's not an agent who can read this stuff with you and tell you the things that Even you yourself know, I know that this means that they don't believe me.
Hearing it from another person really does help just take care of like your body, your nervous system. And so that, but it was a very hard thing to read. And then the comments from the lawyer herself were also really. really hard. I think [00:44:00] sometimes some people think it's the men and I'm like, no, not
Katherine: really.
No, no, no, no, no. It is not. It is not. And they, they, again, as you said, they want to win. And so they are thinking about this from a perspective of like, if we get into a lawsuit, how will we win? What are the things that we need in order to win? And so much of the civil lawsuit there are absolutely situations.
I know someone who is suing someone for financial fraud right now and it is a genuine situation in which they should be suing that person, but this can also just be this very capitalistic way for power holders to just be bullies. There aren't a lot of like regulations about like, is this a legitimate reason to sue someone.
And so. It's a game. A lot of it's a game. And the, the lawyers, a certain type of person ends up being a lawyer, and they are, they're, they're, they're about strategy and the game, and how do I win this game, and they are [00:45:00] not, thinking you are an abuse survivor who has been extremely traumatized and they're not thinking how is this going to land for you.
They also tend to have very little other than just like very high level understanding of like rape is sexual abuse. They don't have a lot of understanding about the nuances of abuse and what exactly is abuse. And so. That when you've already gone through an experience of having to justify and defend yourself and, and convince yourself that this is real and this really happened and, and what you are experiencing and how you are navigating your trauma is real to then have this real life experience of people just like not believing you, even though that's not necessarily the case, but it feels like they don't believe you.
It can be very re traumatizing, and so we're just, we're just sharing this to just like, just be aware. Make, make a wise choice of, of this with [00:46:00] awareness. And as Janai said, surround yourself with people, give yourself some good people who are going to be there to support you. Also, something to keep in mind, a civil suit is not a criminal suit.
You are not a criminal. You do not commit a crime. It might feel like it, but you didn't do anything wrong. Again, people can sue for any reason whatsoever. They do not have to have any, any corroboration. All they have to do is be a bully and have a lot of money.
Jenai: Yeah. I write in other actually, like if people, if people you are calling out someone for misuse of power, they will continue to misuse their power and abuse their power to silence you.
And so they're going to be like, oops, my bad. They will keep doing it. They will keep coming after you. And I think really the only way to stop it from happening is you have to find your power back. And, and that can be through a number of things, [00:47:00] whether, like, people can corroborate your story, you've gathered evidence I will say for anyone gathering evidence or in the middle of that process, don't necessarily do everything under, like, if you get something to your work email and that work email is connected to the abusive situation, start forwarding everything to your personal email because they will close that email account eventually and you will lose evidence, that was in my case, I've also, there was a pastor in my story.
It's not in the book at all, but who has been trying to meet with me or he has been meeting with me for coffee, trying to reconcile, and I feel safe enough to have these conversations with him and not feel talked down to, or not feel, you know, gaslit. I won't let that happen. But because he has extended an olive branch and has kind of admitted to some of the wrongdoing he's done in the corroboration process, I needed to corroborate that I was given, you know two severance options, and I didn't have that screenshot.
It was in, [00:48:00] like, a slide. I have a Slack channel that I'm no longer a part of. It was in my old work email that I never forwarded to my personal email. And so I had to get corroboration for that. And I asked this pastor, I will say lawyer or the lawyer for the publisher, they said, if your husband can corroborate, he is allowed to corroborate for your story.
Right. So that was super helpful. And I, but instead of in title, my husband did corroborate for some of the things, but for this severance option, I thought I'm going to ask the pastor, my friend to do this, my former friend to do this because he can use the one that gave me the severance options. And it was really like a, let me see the test of your character, whether you'll do this, and he didn't, he said,
Katherine: oh, goodness, he
Jenai: said, there's just so much more nuance.
And I'm not saying whether or not there is nuance to the situation. And by the way, I reject his nuance. It was total crap. I was just saying, the [00:49:00] corroboration is. Did you or did you not give me two severance options? And he wanted to say, you know, he wanted to say, but this happened, like, and I was like, yeah.
And I said, can you do this? Can you confirm this? And he said, no, I won't corroborate for you. And I was like, you dirty liar. I was like, fine. I, I, I wasn't upset. I was just like, okay.
Katherine: You showed, you showed your colors.
Jenai: Yeah, you are actually Like confirming that you are still in alignment with the character of the person that I knew before.
And like my lack of trust with you is validated. Like I can no longer trust. I can't, like my, my gut is telling me the right things. I gave you an opportunity to mend some of that trust and you did not. So I still have it in the book that I was given two severance options because my husband was like, yes, you were given two severance options.
And I remember that. And if it ever [00:50:00] goes to court and everyone gets deposed, that's what they're going to say, you know, like you, yeah,
Katherine: you have to. Yeah. And exactly. I can cut this from the episode, but was one of the options, Like you have to sign an NDA and you get this?
Jenai: No. Okay. There was no NDA.
We can keep this in. I was given two severance options. Here's the thing, and this is how pivotal, I was the primary on the bank account. Like my, I could have done anything with the finding. I didn't. But that I, I had the passwords to everything. I was the primary check signer. I had a lot of things that I was responsible for.
I had no power over because they, you know, kind of cuffed me in terms of like what did and didn't happen. And I was trying to follow the rules. But because I had the access and the responsibility to maintain everything, they couldn't just get rid of me super quick because they needed that access. And [00:51:00] so my severance options were two weeks notice and two months severance.
Or I work for two months and I get another three months severance and I, this was 2020. This is when people are losing their jobs. And I thought I need, I actually asked, I said, can I have more severance? Like, this is, you are my brothers. Yes. You are, you are like, tying my hands behind my back.
You have given me no voice and no choice, even though I have consistently told you that this man's harmful. Can I have more severance? They ignored that request. I actually met with somebody who, and I told him, I said, remember you were ignored this request. And he was like, did we? And I said, yes, I remember asking for six months of severance.
Because they do whatever they can't have to in their mind to protect their male fragility that they've done something wrong my husband was there, but the severance thing was [00:52:00] really really hard The kicker is is they did eventually get rid of the senior pastor They gave him like nine ten months worth of severance His salary.
I, his salary was six figures. My salary was in the fifties. Mm-Hmm. . And so I, I felt like I wasn't asking a lot. A lot. I wasn't asking for a lot.
Katherine: Right, exactly.
Jenai: They gave him my salary and then some through his severance, like later, and I thought. Man, like, I, whatever, this is obviously, like, here is another instance where you have made a value statement that one person was more valuable than another, and even in sending them away, you wanted to send him away with so much care, and you just freaking threw me off.
Yeah. It threw me overboard. So,
Katherine: yeah. Oh my gosh. I have heard so many stories [00:53:00] like that of just like, they'll be so stingy with the person who blew the whistle. And then when they, you know, get forced to like, get rid of the pastor because it's just, too much collateral to keep him on because so many people are leaving or for whatever reason and and then they just send him off with like a year of severance and like you know continue to pay his insurance and like all this kind of stuff and you're just like guys yeah it is not an equitable system in any way shape or form
Jenai: i would say i probably if i had to venture a guess i will never find a civil suit filed against me because I in gathering evidence and in kind of trusting my gut.
They didn't know that I was recording things after they let me go and terminated me. They began a quote unquote internal investigation. And if anyone knows, it's not really that much of an investigation where they investigate themselves, [00:54:00] you know, like, come on, man. But. In these internal investigation talks, I recorded everything, and I was kind of triangulating the information with some members.
And I was asking them, what are they telling you? Because this is what I was told. And what are they telling you? And thankfully, some of those what they were telling the members, some of that's recorded in member meetings. And so I was like, okay.
One way. I think we mentioned before pastors still feel like they are just leaders in general feel like they have power.
That's why they keep coming after you. And then 1 way to prevent that is to get your own power back. Once I revealed to them that I had been recording things. and catching them in their lies.
Katherine: Yes.
Jenai: They realized, Oh, we can't just tell her one thing and tell the members another thing. Cause I remember, I remember them telling me, you know, pastors on [00:55:00] probation, pastors, this, I recorded that meeting without their, their knowledge, because it's one party consent.
And then I heard from the member meeting that Pastor went on stage and he said, they've given me time off. Like he wasn't, he wasn't forthright with I'm on probation. They also gave him the power to tell the story himself.
Katherine: Yeah.
Jenai: Which I thought, don't you know? And they were like, we gave him like an opportunity to own.
And I was like, no, you didn't. You gave him an opportunity to save face and
Katherine: I
Jenai: sent them an email. And I said, this is what you've done. This is what I was told. Here is the screen recording. I don't know if this is the case anymore, but there's an app called Loom, where I, I think they might have disabled this feature.
This was early days, 2020, when people were figuring out screen recording and all that stuff. But Loom will record, did record my screen. And because I didn't do it through Zoom, it didn't let the person know that I was [00:56:00] recording the call.
Katherine: And so,
Jenai: I sent them that video that said, This is what you said. Here it is in the transcript.
And they stopped. Like, they just, they realized, Oh my gosh, we have to be more careful with her.
Katherine: Mm hmm. And then at
Jenai: that point, they, I noticed significantly that they were mincing words with me. Because,
Katherine: they knew.
Jenai: Well, and because I got my power back, they just couldn't just tell me anything anymore.
I was weighing and measuring it against everything else they were telling other people.
Katherine: Yeah, yeah. And if you are still happen to be in your situation, your abusive situation, document, document, document, document, document. If you can't record it, you can, you can leave a meeting and you can write your own notes.
You can save the emails, as you know, I was saying, save the screenshots. Have your have all of your things that feel so weird to do that. Like you're just like a double agent. But just think of it that [00:57:00] way. Like, like you are a double agent in a hostile regime, just like, like that person. And yeah. and protect yourself and give yourself what you need to survive that.
Speaking of survival in the event that you do get sued it is a very traumatizing situation to, like, have to be interacting with this stuff again and to not have agency over when you interact with that stuff. And, and it can be very re traumatizing. Litigation abuse is a real thing, such as. A, you know, woman tries to leave her violently abusive husband, even has a restraining order out.
And for that husband to just want, he just wants to keep controlling her and maintain contact with her. We'll just sue her for nothing just to, to maintain the contact. So litigation abuse is a real thing. And that might help to just kind of look at it. That way of like, I'm [00:58:00] being abused in real time and care for yourself.
If that were true, surround yourself with people, take a lot of naps be in therapy, if you can and give yourself a lot of tenderness and care in that situation. And you don't have to be this strong, bad ass all the time. Like if it's hard for you and it is a struggle, that's okay. It's okay if that is a struggle for you and you and it impacts you.
That's why they're doing it. Like they're trying to impact you and for it to actually impact you and actually be like real time abuse that you're experiencing and for that to have an effect on you, that's okay. And give yourself resources in that situation so that you are actually being supported.
when that is happening. One final thought and then I'll let you share final thoughts [00:59:00] too. If you decide that you want to file a civil suit against against a perpetrator or an abuser and you got a lot of evidence and a lot of corroboration and you think you got a good case, there are lawyers that work on contingency who will look at your case and say, I'm going to defend this case for free and I get paid if you get paid.
So that is an option to do your research and not legal advice, but I really hope more people will do that. Do that, do that thing and just let them know, Hey, you're going to sue us. We're going to sue you. Monique, any final thoughts or any other things that you want to add to something that we left out or holes to fill?
Yeah,
Jenai: yeah. I will say if you live in a two party state and you have to get consent before recording, that can still work in your favor too. So after my former leaders found out I was recording, they eventually asked me to partake in a reconciliatory meeting. And I, I know I was like, I [01:00:00] will, I will come to that.
And I told them I will come to that on two conditions. I, I had already sat on one side of the table with all six of them before. And I said, I need advocates there for me. Beyond my husband, I, I, I want people there who are for there for us. And the second request was that I record the meeting.
If you, I thought, well, it's going, they're going to be much more careful with their words when they record the meeting, but still in that meeting, there were still some tells.
Katherine: Yeah. For
Jenai: instance, one thing I wrote about in other, I think maybe it's chapter three about apologies. And how I'm sorry, you feel that way is different than I, I'm sorry, I did this to you.
Katherine: Yeah.
Jenai: And in this rec, like this meeting that they, that they, they said, yes, they let me record it. They still said, I'm sorry, you feel that way. I'm sorry. You feel like you, I would, I had dismissed you and I'm sorry. And like, they still [01:01:00] kind of tell on themselves. So if you live in a two party state and you feel like you can't do these clever one party things.
You can still gather good information, even if you ask. And they will still, they show their colors, even if they don't think that they're showing their colors. Like, I really think sometimes, sometimes some people know what they're doing and I think sometimes the self deception is so deep, they just don't know how bonkers it is.
Or they're
Katherine: super arrogant and they, they really genuinely feel like they can do whatever they want.
Jenai: Yeah, yeah. And so there are ways in which you can gather information, even if, like, you don't have a similar one party state situation, like I do. I will also say that when it comes time to providing corroboration, you know, Asking for corroboration, I mentioned, was really hard, but also going back through the evidence, some of my evidence was audio or video recording, and [01:02:00] I had to go back and listen to
Jenai: Or watch the video and provide a timestamp.
I had to send them the audio or video link and give them a timestamp, and I, that was very difficult. Very hard on me. I did it because I needed to, but if that sounds like something you don't want to do try to find you'll, you'll, if you want to write it the way that you have it and not say, I remember this, you want to actually use that.
Just be gentle with yourself. That is a really hard thing. I think I needed to not look at the book for a while after providing evidence because that was listening to those voices and seeing those faces again. It was really hard. And so I just wanted, I didn't want to not say that because people think, Oh, I have all this evidence going back and looking at the evidence can be really, really hard on you.
Yeah.
Katherine: Yeah, absolutely. And it's so important to just have our, our agency and interact with the [01:03:00] material in our own way in our own time. And when you have something like a book deadline, You don't always have that that capacity to just, yeah. You know, do it on your own time and just when you, when you feel good enough for it.
And and a and a civil suit similar is there's deadlines, there's timelines, and you can't just like, oh, I just wanna block out this day and then the next day I'm gonna go get a massage. Like, you don't always have that agency. And just that, just that lack of control within that. Contacts can also feel retraumatizing.
And so since we probably discouraged everybody listening to from going public with their stories, what let's remind folks again, like why it's sometimes important to go public with our stories.
Jenai: I think it was important to me personally to keep my integrity. I did everything I could do to stop someone else from getting hurt.
I, I stood up, I did exactly what my [01:04:00] faith had encouraged me to do. I did exactly the thing I, I believe. And I write this in the book sharing your story and telling your story and owning your story is a way to be like what I think the prophets of the old Testament did. The prophets, they didn't tell fortunes.
They were calling people in power to account. I now realize the weight of that, like, oh my gosh, like that is, I did exactly, I spoke up and I don't, I know that not everyone will speak up, not everyone, you know, I had power, I had gathered all this evidence, I had the power to speak up because I had kind of things that bolstered me, not everyone has that, and I, I don't want anyone to feel shame If they feel like they can't tell their story because they don't have that same kind of support or evidence but keep telling your story to yourself so that you're validating yourself.
If, if no one else will affirm you, there is still so much power in [01:05:00] affirming your own truth, your own story. No one can take that away from you, but they will do their damnedest to take it away from you. I will also say that it is. mentally grueling. It is I just want people to take care of themselves.
Above all, just, just to, if you do and do this work and you know you're going to tell your story give yourself a lot of space and say no to other things that Yeah. Other expectations, other, you know, there are other friends who I'm promoting this book and it's a very vulnerable book. There are other friends who are also writers who also want me to write endorsements or who also in this particular time want me to do something for them and support them.
And as much as I love them, I have had to say no to a lot of them as I promote this book or do this work because I'm trying to do it well and with capacity. And because the story is so vulnerable, it takes a lot out of me. So say like, just be [01:06:00] understanding that you have to say no to a lot of people that you love and like, that's okay.
Yeah, the people who love you who hear no from you will still like acknowledge that this is okay.
Katherine: Absolutely.
Jenai: If they take offense to that, then maybe they aren't as big a support as you thought they were and just redraw the boundaries of that relationship, but make a lot of space for you and doing this work.
Katherine: Absolutely. And the reality that it's really important to tell our story, to tell our version of the story, to reclaim our narrative, to reclaim our power post an abusive situation, but there are many ways to do that. And telling a story publicly does not have to be the only or only way. Or even an option like we it's important to tell those stories 100 percent highly encouraged finding safe places where you can tell your story.
You don't have to go public with it. [01:07:00] Absolutely. And, and. There are things you can do if you decide that that's important to you to make sure that you are taking care of yourself and protecting yourself. Listen to this episode for that. As we wrap up, how can people find you, find your book, interact with you, and yeah, what are the easiest places for people to get in touch with you?
Jenai: I am everywhere on the internet at Janiyah Amin. And I'm usually hanging out on Instagram, not really on Twitter or X or whatever it is anymore. It's getting more vitriolic over there. I also, what prompted this conversation was not only that I'm promoting a book, but I also wrote about this experience on Substack.
And if you want, Catherine, I can send you the link and you can include that in any show notes on the website, but also what I've considered doing and what I might do for the release of this episode is. Maybe Othered is not the book for you. Maybe you, but if you want to pick up Othered and you [01:08:00] want to see some of these instances where I discussed kind of changing language or things I needed corroboration for, you can pick up the book and I will write a new substack post that kind of delineates, like, this is the area, this page this is the story I was telling, this is what it originally looked like, and this is how I had to change it from For the lawyers.
I can do that as well and I can just make that available to y'all. So just so that you can do whatever you can do to protect yourself. But I'm around, I'm a human being. I have email if anyone ever wants to email me I'm not famous. I'm not looking to be famous. I'm looking to be a resource. So if I can be a resource or just a compassionate witness to you and your story, just send me an email.
DMs are really bad. Just because DMs are like. You know, random guys slide in there and they say weird things. And so I try not to,
Katherine: yeah,
Jenai: but email is a much more safe space and that's where I'm much more engaged. So feel free to go to my website and send me an email. And I'm usually pretty prompt with those.
So. [01:09:00]
Katherine: Yeah. Awesome. I, yeah, I would love it if you have the capacity to write that that additional sub stocks. Just, I love super practical, pragmatic examples of like, this is how I originally wrote it. And then this is how I changed it. That would be, that would be so cool. If you don't have the capacity to do it, I totally understand.
But here's hoping by the time this episode comes out, we'll have that. That would be awesome. And we can always do it later or put it on the website or something like that. That would be awesome. Thank you so much. I'm real excited about this. This is a massive conversation in the trauma recovery, spiritual abuse recovery space.
So I'm so excited to like finally have this conversation. So thank you so much for coming and recording with us.
Jenai: Yeah. Thank you for having me on.
Uncertain is produced, recorded, edited, and hosted by me, Katherine Spearing. Intro music is from the band Green Ashes.
I hope you've enjoyed this podcast. [01:10:00] And if you have, please take a moment to like subscribe and leave a review. Thank you so much for listening and I will see you next time.
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Episodi mancanti?
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Mattie Jo Cowsert was a pastorâs kid and proud purity ring wearer before she moved to New York City and experienced an unexpected worldview and identity implosion thanks to Tinder and her Jewish roommate. When marriage equality passed in 2015, Mattie Jo decided to share how the queer community was one of the catalysts for questioning everything sheâd been taught about this Jesus guy in her first publicly released blog post entitled: God and the Gays. This was the start of her popular blog, God, Sex, and Rich People. Before terms like âdeconstructionâ, âpurity cultureâ or âExvangelical'' became hashtags viewed by billions, God, Sex, and Rich People exposed the sometimes painful, sometimes hilarious realities of a young female Exvangelical navigating the diversity of the Big Apple, working for the 1%, and trying to have good sex without hating herself in the city that never sleeps (and never stops sleeping around).
Her book by the same name releases on September 10th, 2024.
Looking for a trauma-trained mental health professional to work with? www.traumaresolutionandrecovery.com/meet-our-practitioners
Sign up for Tears of Edenâs newsletter to receive updates on the release of Katherine Spearingâs upcoming book: www.tearsofeden.org/about
Uncertain is a podcast of Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If youâre enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus.
You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/support
To get in touch with us please email [email protected]
Follow on Instagram @uncertainpodcast
Transcript is Unedited for Typos and Misspellings
[00:00:00] I'm Katherine Spearing, and this is Uncertain.
Uncertain is the affiliate podcast of Tears of Eden, a community and resource for survivors of spiritual abuse from the evangelical community.
So I don't think I've had the chance to officially announce, But in April of this year, I partnered with Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery to work as a practitioner for them. Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery is a online agency that works with survivors of spiritual abuse, religious trauma, purity culture, folks who are deconstructing, All of the things, and it's 100 percent online, so you can meet with a practitioner online.
So many folks are addressing the religious trauma that came from evangelicalism, from working in the church, and they're looking for good mental health professionals that understand this. I know that with most of the clients that I work with, they [00:01:00] have already worked with therapists before in the past.
But one of the main things that they struggled with in their therapy relationship was that the therapist didn't understand the nuances and the complexities of the subculture of evangelicalism.
So if you are looking for a mental health practitioner to help you navigate the complex and confusing and very painful journey of recovering from religious trauma and the trauma from spiritual abuse, I encourage you to check them out. I'm a practitioner there. I see clients one on one. I currently have a client.
Few openings for new clients and there are also several other practitioners that have openings for clients as well. So that is an option available to you. Another thing that I haven't announced yet on the podcast is that In April, also in April of this year, I signed a book contract. I am working with Lake Drive Books as my publisher for this book.
[00:02:00] And what do you know? The book is about spiritual abuse. It will contain a A lot of my journey, but my journey also entails working with clients, working with survivors through Tears of Eden,
there are some genuine quotes that are taken straight from some of the podcast episodes here. So you'll be in familiar territory.
One of the gaps in the current literature around spiritual abuse that my book is going to hopefully fill is addressing the reality that The theology and evangelicalism and in the modern day church actually has a massive impact on the rampant abuse that we are now seeing in the church.
I haven't seen a lot of that connection made in the current literature that's out there. Our previous guest from last week, Krista Brown, she made that connection really well. Like this theology actually leads to the abuse. So Other than that, I just really haven't seen that much happening. So that's one [00:03:00] of the things that's going to be showing up in this book as well.
That's just a little bit of a sneak peek. We'll probably do some sort of launch event through Tears of Eden when it comes out in 2025. The exact date is still to be decided, but subscribe to Tears of Eden's newsletter so that you can get updates on that book when it's coming out and all of the deets around that. The guest today is Maddie Jo Kausert. Maddie Jo was a pastor's kid and proud purity ring wearer, before she moved to New York City and experienced an unexpected worldview and identity implosion, thanks to Tinder and her Jewish roommate.
When marriage equality passed in 2015, Maddie Jo decided to share how the queer community was one of the catalysts for questioning everything she'd been taught about this Jesus guy in her first public release blog post entitled, God and the Gays. This was the start of her popular blog.
God, sex, and rich people. Before terms like deconstruction, purity culture, or [00:04:00] evangelical became hashtags viewed by billions, God, sex, and rich people exposed the sometimes painful, sometimes hilarious realities of a young female evangelical navigating the diversity of the Big Apple, working for the one percent, And trying to have good sex without hating herself in a city that never sleeps and never stops sleeping around.
Her book by the same name releases on September 10th, 2024.
Maddie is hilarious and super fun, so I'm very much looking forward to reading her book when it releases. Here is my interview with Maddie Jo Kausert.
Katherine: Well, welcome, Glenda, to have you here. I love the title of your book. Why don't you tell us the title of your book?
Mattie: I
Katherine: will.
Mattie: Yes. God's Sex and Rich People, a Recovering Evangelical Testimony.
Katherine: Fantastic. And you are coming from New York, where you work as an actor?
Mattie: Mm hmm.
Katherine: Actor.
Mattie: And now [00:05:00] author. Now author. Actor, writer, shameless overshare is what I say. Or sometimes I say actor, writer, babysitter for billionaires. It kind of depends on my crowd.
Katherine: Are you still a babysitter for billionaires?
Mattie: I am. I am a babysitter. You know, something of the, of the unexpected twists and turns my life has taken.
I did not foresee my being like solely raised to be a mom and a wife to be so lucrative. Incredibly lucrative in New York City. There are lots of, of, and I'm not saying this is true of my family, of the family I work for, but there are lots of families in New York that actually don't want to parent their kids.
So I'm great.
Katherine: Yeah, absolutely. I'm
Mattie: good at it.
Katherine: Absolutely. Absolutely. I had a life where I nannied. I enjoyed it. I like, Mm-Hmm, . I really enjoyed it. And there are times where I consider going back to it because .
Mattie: Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . Let me know. I know someone looking for a nanny in [00:06:00] St. Louis.
We can get, we can follow up after.
Katherine: All right. Let's do it. But yeah. And I had six younger siblings. Mm-Hmm. . And so like, it was like. Super like, I was like, this doesn't work like this.
Mattie: Exactly. This is just like my life.
Katherine: This is life for me. Yeah. And now I get paid for it.
I like this. Yeah. Okay, cool. So, all right. I'm like trying to like in my head, then boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Okay. So maybe let's start with your, just like your journey, cause you, you're from Branson, Missouri, and you somehow ended up in New York acting and working with rich people. So tell me How you got from point A to point B.
And then if you want to touch on some of the things like the journey, the deconstruction stuff that you you are writing about on your blog and on in your book I would love to hear all of those things and then we can just kind of see where it goes. We're going to have, [00:07:00] we're going to have a great
Mattie: time.
Great. Yeah. And like I kill, I am a loquacious individual. So if you ever need to stop me and say like, you know, just. Interrupt me whenever. So I was born a preacher's kid which if you were a preacher's kid in the 90s, I mean, there are, there are, You know, different varieties of what that could mean. But my variety was of the, the general Baptist convention, which is not, it is an actual like denomination.
It's different from first or second Baptist or Southern Baptist, but like it's, it's generally Baptist, right? I think the only thing that's different, it doesn't matter. There's some theology things, right? And they made their own church from the other Baptists. And. My, I say that, I say this in the book, my roots in evangelicalism are as deep as my roots in America.
My great grandfather was a Baptist pastor. My grandfather on that side was a Baptist pastor. On my dad's [00:08:00] side, my grandfather was a Baptist pastor and then my dad became a Baptist pastor. So it's just, it's, this shit's literally in my blood.
We were Baptist in terms of, like, the traditionally Baptist, but then we, by junior high, we kind of crossed over into the non denominational world, which was very exciting for people coming from a denomination where there was no dancing
Katherine: and
Mattie: lustful hip moving. And now we got, like, You know, a full band and cool, like, spinny lights and a sick sound system.
It was
Katherine: hip Christianity.
Mattie: Yes, absolutely. So then I, I and like, I will mention this, the church that my dad was the pastor at before we switched over to the non denom world is was Stuart, our Alan Clark's church. I don't know if you remember him. He's the one that kind of went viral. For saying that, like, basically having a Trump rally at a church for saying, like, if on a Mother's Day service, like, if you [00:09:00] women are, like, too fat, and your husband's not gonna be attracted to you, and he cheats on you, like, all the things we sort of subtly heard in church growing
Katherine: up.
I've heard, I've heard these, I've heard this before, I wouldn't have connected the name, but yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Mattie: Super, super great. And he, like, did my He did my grandpa's funeral, like, yeah, so but my, he was not there, obviously, when my dad was the pastor there, but I lived at the parsonage of that church, right?
So then for a while, my dad got, like, a normal person job while he was seeking out, you know, different pastoral opportunities, and we, in the meantime, we started going to this non denominational church, and that was really, like, my home church, and then my dad got on staff at that church as the community pastor.
So even though he wasn't like at the pulpit, he was still like a big part of it. And that was like my, my high school experience was, being at church so much, I was there like so much and it was my whole social life. And to be honest, I think something I don't really highlight enough is I really loved that experience.
Like I loved that I was not [00:10:00] drinking and I wasn't having sex in high school. I got to really enjoy being a kid. And I think a lot of high school. trying not to be the age they are. And I really, I really feel like I got that in high school. And then also like I wasn't really dating and because of like purity rings and everything.
So I didn't have the same amount of boy drama that I feel like a lot of girls are distracted from. And then because at church we learned a lot about like, Cultivating deep, meaningful relationships with people. I feel like I had a really strong friend group. So lots of great things came of my, my time at church, right?
And then, but along with it, you know, was a lot of really bad shit. And I went to college and I I did go to school for theater. So sort of as a natural outcome of that, I started questioning some of what I was, I had learned in church around gay people going to hell and everything. There's a chapter in my book, it's all caps.
Everyone is going to hell. Because like, I had gay [00:11:00] friends and I was like, oh no, all my friends are gonna burn. And And so that was sort of the beginning of me really questioning some of this stuff, but I was still very much in it like I was in a a missions focused group in mission and fellowship focused group throughout college and I had a boyfriend who I totally thought I was going to marry.
We did not have sex. We were saving ourselves. That was a bit of a, like, Capulet Montague tale because he was Catholic and my family was Baptist and, you know, the Catholics aren't real Christians. So that was some fun drama, but in, in dating him, I learned a lot about Catholicism and a lot about the roots of Christianity.
Whatever. And I really feel like I, I developed a love for liturgy that I didn't get in my non denominational background. So in some ways, I feel like it deepened my spirituality being with him, and because I thought we were going to get married there, There's some stuff I could go back to, but I'll [00:12:00] say this and then go back, I guess.
Because I thought we were going to get married, I was okay with like saving myself. Cause I was like, Oh, but we'll still get married by like 22. And then I can have sex. And then we ended up breaking up my, my later in my junior year of college. And I was like, Well I guess that option.
Yeah. And also alongside it, all of I, this is part of like the, the rich people part of my story. When I was 14, I decided I was going to go to summer camp. We didn't really have you didn't really have summer camp that wasn't church camp where I was and you didn't, I didn't really have any access to theater training in Branson.
I know shocking because of all of the live music, but live entertainment, but it was not the kind of theater I was trying to do. Please. I was Broadway bound, you know? And so my parents were like, well, why don't we, I was going through a pretty rough bout of anorexia and I think it was kind of my parents, like effort of like getting my sparkle back.
[00:13:00] You know, they knew I loved theater and whatever. So then I just like Googled this is all in the book. So you can like read it more in depth there. I Googled and I found the top performing arts camp in the country. And I decided, okay, I'll go there. And then I looked at the price tag and I was like, holy shit, people pay this much for camp.
And so then I raised the money. I was like, I was like, all right, I'm going to do this. And I like raised the money to go to camp and I ended up doing it. And then upon arriving at camp, I was like, oh. This is why this camp is so expensive. It's just for rich kids. And like, I was this little me from rural Missouri and I had like done a car wash in the Walmart parking lot to be there, you know?
And so that was a really interesting culture shock and experience. And then, but it was actually I feel like my, Without having words for it, which is actually a really beautiful thing about like being young. Feel like I really had my first real [00:14:00] connection with the divine at being like in a play at camp.
Yeah.
Katherine: And, you know, I love that so much. I love that so much. I wonder so much more about that, but yes, continue. Yes.
Mattie: So then again, sort of without words, like I never, I was never like, Okay, like I never made like a conscious choice that I was gonna be an actor. I just knew I was gonna be an actor. Yeah. I was like, well, this is what I'm designed to do.
I clearly feel the most at home and joyful when I'm doing it. I was really good at it. I was a better actor when I was 14 probably than like college because I was just pure, you know? And and yeah, I was like, And that's when I, yeah, I felt the most connected to God was on, was being in that play. And so then from there on out, I was like, okay, I'm going to go to college for theater and I'm going to, then I'm going to move to New York city.
And I did, I, I did those things. But when I was in college, I felt, and I would like visit New [00:15:00] York every year. during spring break and I would feel this pool of like my sense of adventure and my like wanting to perform and having this love for culture and diversity and really being at not, I don't want to say at war, but in conflict with what I was supposed to do as a woman of God, which was like get married. have kids, all of that, right? And I just, I would always wonder, like, how am I going to make these two worlds happen? You know, like
Katherine: identity on who you are and what you love. And you're so aware that it doesn't fit. In this system that told you you were supposed to be this thing and how just, oh, yeah, just like the, the confusion that probably resulted from that.
And tell me more about that unpack. Yeah,
Mattie: so I felt it was just this [00:16:00] conflict of. Of knowing, you know, like part of the brilliant work of the evangelical church and I would argue like, you know, religious systems in general is the their ability to detach individuals from themselves. So I call it like.
Self severance and the work of deconstruction is actually integration is like actually getting to know and not vilify your feelings your thoughts your opinions because what are we told like if it's not of the lord it's it's of the flesh right like everything is just a dichotomy of like good and evil and so yeah i again i didn't have words for it but i was like why do i feel more connected to myself And more joyful in New York City with all of these like theater weirdos than at church singing songs, you know, and, or like not even at church singing songs, cause I did like to sing.
So I did like that, but I, but more, you know, following the rules, [00:17:00] doing the purity culture thing, showing up in a particular way, not going out and drinking and all of this stuff. And I was like, I just, that just isn't me. Like I'm. I'm like pretty horny and boy crazy and I don't know why that has to make me like less of a Christian But that was that was the competing narrative.
Those were the competing narratives, right? It's like to give up my virginity to give up getting married therefore getting married young, right? To give up these things that were so upheld in the evangelical church would mean that I was not living in alignment with God, and I was not living in alignment with my higher calling.
And another thing that the evangelical church does so masterfully is they really they really, like, pedestalize Yes. And so
Katherine: the
Mattie: heart or
Katherine: something. Sacrifice. this identity would have been more holy.
Mattie: Exactly. Exactly. So luckily [00:18:00] after I went on a mission trip to Indonesia with my missions group where basically the whole time they were just telling us like, look, if you're not willing to like pick up your cross and follow me to Indonesia to be a full time missionary, you don't love Jesus enough.
If you are not willing to be a modern day martyr for the Lord. You're not a Christian. Like you just, like your faith isn't actually the most important thing to you. And then making you feel such shame for that. And I came back from that trip and I was like, okay. All right. So first things first, I guess I'll break up with my boyfriend.
Cause now I have to move to Indonesia and I don't, I know he doesn't want to do that. And then I'm going to, I guess, finish out my musical theater degree, but I'll, I'll move to. another country in the 1040 window instead of moving to New York City. And I talked to my dad about it and he was like, that is such a pile of crap.
Luckily, I say this in the book, I have a, [00:19:00] a father who is like, you know, more like Oprah than he is like, you know Baptist pastor and he was just like to go against what you were designed to do would be going against god What? Yeah, and he was like you Mm hmm. I know i'm really grateful for my parents, which is another thing we can talk about is they're like very like, level headed intellectuals.
Well, my dad for sure. My mom is like, very like common sense. So she, for her, it just doesn't compute. She's like, how could you follow Donald Trump and follow Jesus? Those two things are not the same at all. So there, I'm lucky in that regard, for sure. But anyway, so, so Yeah, that was just the the conflict, but I guess because I was not I was only surrounded by people who thought differently than the than the herd, I guess you would say for like one week out of the year It was like one week out of the year.
I would go to new york city and I would get a different dose of like this whole vast world [00:20:00] that wasn't my own. But then you, I would go back to Missouri and all those questions that would be festering and everything, they would just get stifled because all I'd have is everybody else in my ear saying something different.
And it wasn't until my boyfriend and I like fully broke up and I realized, okay, I am now for sure, for sure. Moving to New York city.
Katherine: What was the boyfriend? The Catholic one.
Mattie: Yeah, yeah I am for sure for sure moving to New York City And the logistics of that with, like, marriage, I don't know, man.
And then, that was really, I would say, like, that was the catalyst for the rest of my undoing. Because now, I really knew I was going to New York. And so, you know, it's like, they say, I had people say to me, well, like, you know, don't let those liberals convert you. So, help. And then I like went, I'm like, well, they did it.
They did their, their [00:21:00] wizardry, I guess. But yeah, then once I got to New York and I just say like, just by living there and I can go a little bit more into that if you want me to, but just by living there, I was just sort of constantly accosted by all the ways that. My, the faith that I had been presented that had these like rules really only worked in a very specific culture outside of that culture.
They do not work. So I, so then I'm thinking like, but this is the God who created like, Like, you know, like, the, the freaking, like, geysers, and, and like fuzzy caterpillars, and then like, the whole galaxy, and he can't find it in his galacting making heart to love gay people?
Like, it just was, I, and the more I was with, you know, These people who were different. I was like, it's just not computing. But you know, honestly, when I moved to New York, I did not yes, the questions were happening and they were definitely like I guess percolating is the right word for it. [00:22:00] But I, I definitely had no intention of like losing my identity as a Christian.
I thought, you know, I thought, you know what, I'll work through this like purity culture thing, I'll figure that out first, and the gay people thing and whatever. But then, once I started dissecting scripture, and I started to do a really big deep dive in like history. textual critic, textual criticism, any sort of like breaking down of, of the Bible outside of like the case for Christ, you know, anything that didn't have like a very strict Christian agenda, things that were just scholastic.
Like I was literally reading textbooks from like courses at Columbia, you know I was like,
don't even think I'm a Christian because if, if I have to believe that Jesus. is the messiah to and that he came here to die for our sins and the resurrection and all of that if i have to believe all of that to be a [00:23:00] christian
Katherine: yeah
Mattie: i don't think i do
Katherine: yeah
Mattie: and it was just sort of like to to have continued to buy into it experiencing everything that I was experiencing, learning everything I was learning would have been the ultimate, like, self negligence.
Yeah. And I had come too far in my journey of authenticity to do that. Yeah. And like, to be honest, I feel like that was kind of my, like, That was my moment where I was like, I will never turn on myself. Because if I can give up this. Yeah. Which is like everything about me. So now everything's going to unravel now.
After this. And it did. And it was not pretty. Then I think I'm gonna always. Be able to know myself and come back to myself. I didn't know that consciously at the time obviously but Which again is like then you're fighting like the youth pastor [00:24:00] jiminy cricket in your head That's like but you're not good.
You can't trust yourself. You are sinful, you know, like you can't All of those things. So everything, I just say like deconstructing is just like a total mindfuck. I at least had the privilege of being geographically removed from it, but most people who are deconstructing, like you expressed earlier, it's like they're still very much in it.
So I imagine that has to be a lot harder. Like I was in a place where, I use this joke, like if you, if I told people in my circles that I had just gone to a worship service, they'd be like, Oh. An orgy? Like, what does that mean? You know, the language just isn't the same.
Katherine: Exactly, and you realize that once you get out of it.
It's like, oh, that is like such this insider cellular conversation. And when you start to use those words, and you're like, oh, this sounds so weird. Yes. Sounds weird because it is weird. Yeah. Yeah, because
Mattie: it is weird exactly and like the more people that you meet that don't grow up in it. I'm like, that's a really [00:25:00] good like if you really want to like quickly divvy up like what is total bullshit and what is like Okay of what we learned in church, just tell all of the pillars of your youth group lessons to someone who didn't grow up in it and you will figure it out very quickly.
Watch their face. Yeah, yeah. So I don't know if you have any questions about that. But yeah, that's how I got from there to here.
Katherine: This is a dynamic that I was I would love to discuss with you. So I escaped a cult, like shiny, happy people cult when I was in my mid twenties, and I immediately moved to a different country.
And then after that, I went to seminary and then I lived in, I lived in DC and I lived in LA. And I lived in St. Louis for grad school and it, and I can see very starkly the role that [00:26:00] getting out and getting in geographically getting into a different space and being around different people. It just accelerated everything and, so tell me about the role that that played in your life of just like being in the big city and like getting out
Mattie: Yeah, I do talk about that a lot, about like, geographical privilege. Because I was not going to lose my entire community if I said I don't think gay people are going to hell. Some people, especially if they're married and they have kids, and like, If they admit that, some of them it's like tied to their income, like I've talked to people who are in the praise band and they are a paid position because it's a mega church, right?
Like, well, I shouldn't assume, obviously, like, apparently Hillsong wasn't really paying its musicians. But anyway but this is like, You know, that's a big thing. And so absolutely. [00:27:00] And so I do realize that I had that I was building a new community. However, While I wasn't afraid of like losing my community, I was really afraid of judgment from people back home But really it's because I was judging myself like if I can go back and really look at the fears I had during like what I call my my rubble years, which is like I had knocked down a whole bunch of shit But I had no idea how to rebuild it yet.
So I was just kind of like Existing in the atomic wasteland of my previous belief system I think a lot of it was anything I was putting on other people was just stuff that I was fearful of, but reinforced by people saying certain things to me, you know,, like, for example, I went back for a birth or a birthday party.
a wedding of my best friend. And the next morning I was like, hey, I have to tell you something. And she goes, Oh my God, did you make that? Did you make out with my brother? And I was like, [00:28:00] no, you know, it was stuff like that. Or like, I went back for, I was like,
Katherine: yeah,
Mattie: exactly.
It's terrible. Although to her credit, I was going to tell her that me and one of our dearest best friends shared mail. I think that detail is probably important just for this context. That we had shared a really sweet goodnight kiss.
Like that's what I was gonna tell her so it did have to do with a boy But no, I didn't make out with your brother. And then another time I remember After I had started the blog Going home for like a bridal shower, and we were all We were all going out for, like, drinks, whatever, afterwards and some of the guys, like, drunkenly, like, kind of cornered me, and they were all like, so you think you can tell my, you know, future wife it's okay to do other positions than missionary?
Stuff like that. Yeah. Right? It [00:29:00] was this, it was this kind of, or like, I remember one time I went home and for a 10 year reunion and one of my classmates who I'd like been in kindergarten with, he grabbed my butt during a group photo. And I turned around and I looked at him and I was like, what was that?
And he was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, don't me to me. And he was like, we know what you write on the internet, Maddie Jo. Oh my god. So it was things like that, that like, you know, these assumptions that just because I was openly talking about sex, that that meant I was sexualized. Yes. Right? Right. And things like that.
I was really, that happened pretty frequently. I think that's a
Katherine: genuine fear for a lot of women. Who are having these journeys, and I will include myself in that, of like, but I'm not going to talk about it publicly because of, it'll put me in danger to some extent of [00:30:00] like, you become this target, like, you're not allowed to just be sexually free without being a ho.
Like, you're not allowed to have sex without being a ho. Like, it's like one or the other. Same double standard rules that have always existed. They just take different forms. Right.
Mattie: Is, you're absolutely right. The danger component of it is very true. And then You know, and it happened in New York too, but I started to use it as kind of a sifter.
Like if I told guys about my blog and their immediate thought was like, oh, she's DTF. I was like, yeah, you're not it. Like you have, you have shrunken me to a 2D vagina, you know, like, And
Katherine: that is a, a perk of that authenticity
Mattie: is,
Katherine: and I mean, and that's one of the reasons why people won't do it, cause it's like, well guys won't like me.
That is actually true. It
Mattie: is actually true. You can, but you can totally see like okay, they're either going to be more interested because they think you're just [00:31:00] ready to have sex with anything. Or they're not going to be interested because they think you're ready to have sex with anything, right? Like air quotes.
Or the third option is they're like, oh, that's really cool. Can you tell me more about your Tell me more about it. Yeah. Yeah. Which is the only okay response. So what you're doing is you're sifting through what I call the misogynist daywalkers, right? Like these are the ones you don't want. And that lets you know it very quickly.
So yeah, to the geographical thing, like I did experience some of that, but the, the removal of it and, oh, here's another thing. I was really afraid my parents weren't going to love me anymore. Like, I know that sounds insane. It doesn't sound insane. Cause I think a lot of people feel that way, but like, I was afraid if I told my parents, like, I, I don't, cause I had, I had realized that so much of like their.
Not affirmation, but like approval of me or what I thought anyway, was around my behavior of being the purity princess of [00:32:00] following the rules of being a, a, a Christ like, you know, young woman. And like, what if I wasn't a zealot for any of that anymore? And I was, I was suddenly very zealous for. The opposite of that.
I was really afraid my parents were going to disown me. They didn't because luckily they were going through something similar because some iffy stuff was going on at our church that you know, they were like, dude, why are church people like this? You know? So I was calling out a lot of the hypocrisy publicly, but they were experiencing it personally.
And so that was again, very lucky, but yeah, being removed from it gave me, I always say like, The greatest gift that New York City gave me was anonymity. Because no one here gave a fuck who I was fucking, when I was fucking, or if I said the word fucking, right? No one was like tone policing me. And I got to just, you know, they say you find out who you really are [00:33:00] when no one's watching.
Yeah, absolutely. And what a gift. Yeah, you know to just be Just being able to make decisions without The wrath of the spiritual side eye you're going to get the second you go in for a coffee
Katherine: Yeah,
Mattie: you know like that was great so I really do and just the ability to be around people from all different walks of life I mean my first apartment in new york city.
This is part of the rich people part. I'm miraculously ended up in a very You specific living situation where I lived in like the penthouse apartment of this fancy building you know, leaning lady, like Upper West Side. And it was four of us and one of the guys who lived there, his family used to own the entire building.
So that's how he had this apartment. And that I could live there for so inexpensively. But anyways, he was born and raised in New York City, went to like the best boy's school in the country. Jewish, right? And then the other girl that was living with us was born and raised [00:34:00] between New York and India.
I'm actually not sure where in India, I should have probably asked. And her family had like tea, a tea business in India, so they were very wealthy, right? And so that's why she was going back and forth between New York and India. And she went to like Harvard Law and Oxford for undergrad. She was Brilliant.
And then the other girl was from Sweden and she was an economist and she was an atheist and like very feminist and you know, and I was like, we had more diversity in my apartment than all of Missouri, you know, so getting to hear their perspectives on things, specifically my roommate who owned the apartment was hysterical because he would call me out on things and, you know, like when I would be having these like equally yoked panic attacks, you know, he'd like kind of call me out on like, It's kind of weird.
You're so concerned about, like, whether or not he's Mormon. Like, did he tell you he was Mormon? You know, like [00:35:00] so it was, yeah. And, and so that really, where if, if your whole world is just every other weekend, somebody else is getting engaged and you're going to their, like, dry wedding, like, yeah, obviously it's not a very expansive place to explore.
Katherine: Yeah. Absolutely. You may already know this, but
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Katherine: And I think for folks, because a lot of folks, especially like the demographic that I work with, not [00:36:00] a lot, but a percentage of folks when they, a lot of them were on staff in churches and experienced abuse and had to leave these churches and had to leave their livelihoods. And on often, it leads to a geographic.
Change.
Mattie: Yeah.
Katherine: It can be so terrifying and so anxiety inducing. And so I think it's really helpful to hear this very expansive positive side of that, which was also what I experienced too. It's very traumatic to move.
Mattie: It's
Katherine: very traumatic to be transplanted into a world that is not familiar. That is 100 percent true.
But the possibilities for what we can encounter. In these new spaces not a reason for difficult things that we go through. I never, I never want to justify the difficult things or prescribe, Oh, the Lord knew what he was doing. Right, right. But I think it can be just [00:37:00] this beautiful world that it can open for us if we kind of just roll with it.
I'm just like, what happens?
Mattie: Definitely. Definitely. I mean, like, I'm pretty sure Linda K. Klein even talks about that in her book, Pure, about how, like, even once she was at Sarah Lawrence, I think she, like, took a trip to Australia or something, and that was when it, like, really solidified for her, like, just being away.
She was like, yeah, this is just, yeah.
Katherine: Yeah, I highly recommend if that is accessible to people, and it's not for everyone, but to The country, get out of your space. Even in a healing season of just like getting out of your space can be so helpful to just not be surrounded by all of these things that are reminding you and, and as you experienced, like just having these things suppressed, like questions that you were having constantly suppressed and you weren't, you weren't in a space where you could ask those questions [00:38:00] and how just like getting out of the space, allowed opportunities.
So that's just a suggestion for the audience. Yeah.
Mattie: Well, and because I will say this, like, because in evangelical circles, there's such a culture of like accountability. I say with air quotes is like, I know from like watching my older sister kind of go through her own process of deconstruction and my book is actually dedicated to her.
I mean like everybody and everybody's business. You know, like you cannot do a damn thing and then and on top of that, like if you are trying to make the decision, you know, like this actually feels really toxic. I'm not going to go to small group anymore. The way they come at you with like every and if you are not yet in a place where you know everything they're saying is bullshit because you have not yet experienced it.
experience to the other side of deconstruction, where you really are like more free and you're happier and all of that, then like them coming at you with like, this is just you not wanting to feel convicted. [00:39:00] And this is you like stepping out of accountability in the Lord. This is, you know, like all of those, like, you're going to be like, Oh yeah, you're probably right.
Like, you know, it's like, it's impossible. And that's why you have to separate yourself because it's honestly just like really it's manipulation and, and you need new friends and it's like really hard to make new friends when you're in the same place too. I think that's tough too.
Katherine: Yeah. And that for forced vulnerability, which is very invasive and very bashing.
And I think that that's another beautiful thing on the other side as well of like, we were, we were so responsible for like, you felt like responsible for your gay friends going to hell and, you know, like, and now it's like, Oh, I don't have to be responsible. I don't have to worry about what your belief system is and whether or not you're going to hell.
I don't, I don't have to do that. Right. Which is great.
Mattie: Right.
Katherine: We have a wonderful time together [00:40:00] and I go home and sleep well.
Mattie: And you don't have to treat your friends like a social, like like tally mark, right? Like, oh, did I share the bridge analogy with them? If I didn't. I probably don't love them, you know?
Like, no, actually, not treating them like an experiment is probably more indicative of your love for them. I remember feeling that in my missions group, too. It's like, Jesus Christ, they'd come at me, I talk about this in my book so people can read more about it there, but they'd come at me with like, How many people did you share the gospel with this week?
And I'm like, how many orgasms did you have this week? Probably that many, like, leave me alone. God damn.
Katherine: And I would just be so mean.
Mattie: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I will say something I went through in my deconstruction to your point of like, these people are not, Like my problem again, one of the like mind fucks is that sorry, I should have asked if I can cuss.
I clearly
Katherine: can. I need to put that as a note in [00:41:00] the, in, in the calendar thing, because people ask me if it's okay. And I'm totally okay with it, but I was like, I should just
Mattie: sorry. Cause I definitely have a potty mouth. But one thing that I really struggled with is, you know, the whole narrative around your behavior.
Is or isn't leading people to Christ. So like when I was going through again, what I call like my rubble years, and I was like, always afraid that like, I couldn't just sin and peace, right? Like internally, every time I like had sex with a guy, I was like, Oh no, if anyone who used to know me as a Christian finds out I'm having sex outside of marriage, Then, what if they think it's okay for them to have sex outside of marriage and then they stop being a Christian and then I'm responsible for them going to hell.
I don't really care what they do, I just want to do me. And I just like, couldn't. You know, like, just living my life all the time, I was like, afraid there was like, someone from my past lurking around the corner, like, [00:42:00] ready to not be a Christian too, just like me, even though I didn't know I wasn't a Christian for like, a long time, I didn't admit that to myself.
But, yeah, I just remember feeling like, crap, so not only am I afraid I'm going to hell, I'm afraid anyone who is witnessing my behavior is also going to hell because of me.
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Katherine: In the time that we have left, I would love [00:43:00] to discuss so you said that you had this divine experience in a play.
What role has art played in that? In your journey?
Mattie: Oh, I love that question. Oh my gosh. It's played the, it's played such a big role. I, you know, little like, theater role double entendre. Yeah. I, when I first came to New York, I was,
I was going to school. Well, okay. Sorry. Backtrack. . I feel like the biggest role that it has played in my life and particularly my spiritual life is that when you're doing what you're supposed to be doing, your life will always be great.
Yeah. Like that doesn't mean that you're not going to have hard times. Like I was taken, I was in a movie right now that has 100 percent on Rotten Tomatoes and is number two in the country. My three scenes. Cut. [00:44:00] I am not in the movie. Like, it's not, it's a, like, it's not that it's not, you know, devastating at times and everything, but you know, I didn't know what I was doing when it came to pursuing theater professionally.
I didn't know anything like there's a whole thing you're supposed to do if you're going to school for theater and do all the auditions and whatever. I didn't know any of that. All I knew is that I really liked to act. I was okay at singing. And if someone took some time, I could probably figure out dance.
And so I just auditioned for two schools. I got into one for their BFA programs. So I just went to the one that I got into. And then even once I left that program, like I just kept, I started to do musical theater professionally or pursue it professionally in New York city. And even after four years, again, getting connected to myself and my, My feelings and everything.
I just came to this point where I was like, this is [00:45:00] so hard. And because I'm Midwestern, I don't know if it's hard because it's supposed to be, like, everything takes hard work, or if it's hard because this just isn't the right path for me. And I would think about camp and I would try to think about the times where I really felt connected and I was like I'm not connected when I sing or when I dance.
I am so in my head about hitting the notes and hitting the choreography. I can't even think about acting, which is the part I actually enjoy. Yeah. So I decided, you know what? I'm not going to pursue musical theater anymore for like a hot second and just try to act. For a year, I'm going to plant myself in New York City and I'm just going to pursue acting jobs and like see how it goes.
And the pressure, like I was, I was, so much more successful at auditioning. I was booking like crazy. [00:46:00] I was having, I had far more success in that one year of pursuing, but of pursuing acting work than I had been in four years of musical theater. And yeah, I've just continued. So now I just do like on camera acting and like plays when they come up, but.
And then same with writing. Like, I've always been a writer. I just never wrote publicly. And so when I started releasing my blogs in 2015, it wasn't because I thought I was a writer. I just did something that I found really, like, it was so enjoyable. And not always, right? Because I, I think Glennon Doyle has this, this quote that's like, I don't like writing.
I like having written. You know, it's like the putting it together is like, Oh, sometimes it's really hard, but I really enjoyed the process of like, piecing together a story in a way that was engaging. And like, I just really, really loved it. And so I've always [00:47:00] followed those, that those impulses, like these sort of, I remember I had this moment, you know, it's dating this guy and he was like rich, whatever he was in finance.
And he sort of had this like, promise of, a less hard life for me. Cause he would take care of the bills and da da da da da da. And so I was like, man, it would be nice to not be juggling like acting and 50 different babysitting jobs and just to live in like a shitty apartment. So I was talking to a mentor of mine and Oh, and there was also this promise of like going back to Germany.
Not promise, but potential going back to Germany. Cause that's where he was from, whatever. So I was talking to this mentor of mine of like, okay, should I just like, you know, get a normal job and sort of like go on this track of like building a life with him and you know, going that way and she was like, well, why, why do you act Maddie Joe?
Like, why do you want to act? And I just like looked at her and I said two things and I didn't even think about it. And I just said, [00:48:00] because I love it and I have to, and like following that impulse, like not even thinking of it, but being like, no, that's just my truth. Like, it sounds so cliche, but like, that's just my truth, you know?
And then I had my mom and I was talking to her. She was like, you've worked so hard to create this whole life for yourself. And you're just going to move to Germany for this guy. Like, you know, so I did have some like you know, strong women in my ears. So that was good. But yeah, I think it's been the way.
That I feel most connected to truth and my knowing and like, it's the thing that has kept me pursuing again to go back to the beginning, pursuing a life of authenticity over dogma or what is right quote unquote, right? What is logical even and that that's not to say that I'm not logical I am like I have a full time job that I also do with all of this other stuff But I just always have to go back to those things because I really believe those things being like acting and writing and the [00:49:00] belief that like I was designed with a certain skill set and with a passion to do it, so I need to do it, because I really believe that why, and this isn't to like diminish or belittle mental health, but I think the reason why we have a lot of mental health in our country is because we don't have a society or an economic system that allows people to explore the things they were actually meant to do.
We, we have a society that celebrates a very specific You know, kind of financial success. And then like for me, I have a job.
Katherine: Great. But not everyone does.
Mattie: Not everyone is. We don't, we don't celebrate that. It takes all kinds. Right. And we decide what is worth what kind of money. So like, even though the guy trading, on wall street is doing nothing to better the world, literally nothing.
Right? Like, he's just making rich people richer. Connecting a global economy, maybe. Like, maybe. It's [00:50:00] a stretch. But that motherfucker makes millions of dollars. The person stacking your shelves at Trader Joe's because it's a less whatever, like, skilled job? Not worth it. Unless we're in a pandemic and then they're considered an essential worker.
Right? Like, It's just, I don't know so it's hard for people to pursue the things that they love in the capacity that I do, and we have lots of other systems in place that make it harder for other people from other incomes, , but but I do think that, like, if you don't do the thing you were looking for.
Designed to do you will just keep finding ways to feel better, whether it's antidepressants or an addiction or, you know, whatever it is, avoidance until you just do that thing
Katherine: exactly. And then you lay on the teaching and the Christianity. And the, how you're not supposed to have your own desires and they're supposed to be God's desires and we're [00:51:00] conditioned to fear our desires or to doubt them or mistrust them.
It takes incredible amount of courage to say, I'm worth it and like my desires matter and these things that I want to do really matter and they're worth, they're worth taking that risk to pursue. And especially for women, I
Mattie: think, especially for
Katherine: women of, of where ours is always supposed to be subjugated to like a family, like having a family or a spouse or something like that.
And and having to create that path is very, very challenging. What do you think, just as we're wrapping up, what are some things that you would share with folks who are Kind of on that same journey, either the deconstruction journey or just like pursuing, pursuing dreams [00:52:00] in the, in the aftermath of all of this toxic teaching that we got.
Mattie: Yeah. Oh man. Well, one thing I wanted to say about like the, the desires thing, right? Two things is like, women aren't even allowed to desire An attractive person like we're not even allowed to say like, oh, I actually don't find this guy Very hot and so I don't want to be in a relationship with him because I am not attracted to him because we are always supposed to we are expected to always put like emotional connection above all right as if Me wanting to be attracted to my partner means that I don't also prioritize emotional connection, right?
Like, these are the kinds of very nuanced ways that I had to pick apart narratives that I would come up against in a pursuit of following my desires. And then there's also, like, the worst thing to be as a woman, but also as an evangelical woman, for [00:53:00] sure, is selfish. It's because selfishness is a sin and we make selfish in those circles synonymous with like what do I say?
Like a, a, a heartless bag of dicks. Like you're just so mean and you don't care about anybody else and you don't care how your actions affect anyone else. It's like, So it takes so much courage. Like I talked to women who have left marriages and whatever. And it's like, Oh my gosh, I huge kudos to them because that takes so much courage to just be like, this is not for me.
And I actually didn't even choose this. I was just kind of like conditioned into it. And and to be selfish, it's not to be a heartless bag of dicks with zero empathy. To be selfish means that you prioritize yourself and if, if you're in a relationship, like if you can't even be good with yourself, you will not be good in your relationship, but we really vilified self focus, especially in evangelical circles, right?
[00:54:00] What I would say to. You know, anyone in this deconstruction journey and like the pursuit of desire or dreams or whatever. I would say Trust trust the process It's not linear. And if you're going through it right now, there are So many resources when I was going through it. We didn't have words like purity culture or deconstruction or any of that So it felt very lonely, but now there are entire communities on my You On my website, I have a purity culture resource guide that in and of itself is going to be a really good start.
And once you start clicking on some of these things on Instagram, the algorithm is going to know what you're looking for, and it's going to give you more of what you're looking for. So you can get communities, you can get books, you can get podcasts and then, yeah, just like, Get really good at sort of the personal development side of it, which is like self aware about what are your thoughts, identifying your thoughts, where are they coming from?
[00:55:00] Because another masterful manipulation tool, the evangelical church knew about is neuro pathways. Your brain doesn't know the difference between a truth and a lie. It only knows what you tell it is the truth and what you tell it is a lie. So you actually have this amazing power as an individual to reconstruct what you believe is true and what you believe is a lie.
And it takes work, right? It takes like, I call it like Jedi mind tricks, right? Like watch your thoughts. You got to grab your thoughts and then you got to decide, see where it's coming from, examine it, and then replace it with a new thought. And then before you know it, you really will have like a whole different brain chemistry happening.
And you won't be so afraid of like going to hell if you don't do a morning Devo. But I think, I think don't underestimate the power of like the sort of like personal development of it all because you really are trying to change your brain and your truth.
Oh, here's the other thing. You actually have a say in your [00:56:00] life. You are not actually at the whims of whether God is blessing you or punishing you. And that's where That's where that brain reconstruction happens because I, I cannot tell you how much better my life got when I learned that.
And I, and I realized, oh my gosh, I really have been existing in this space. And I talk a lot about this in the book of like, everything I do is just a system of like punishment and reward. And now I have this, broader perspective and I actually have a say in my life and you actually have a say in your life.
So and then yeah, if you keep putting off pursuing what you know, know you're called to do and it doesn't have to be big, right? Not everybody has to like, you know, have like go through a divorce and like become a van person. It can be as small as like, I really think I'm a writer. I'm going to take 15 minutes to write every day.
It can be that, that. So yeah, I don't know if that was helpful or super blah, blah, blah,
Katherine: but [00:57:00] absolutely no. And I think it's just helpful for folks to hear, especially because I feel like there's a lot of material about like the process of deconstruction and what's, you know, how to do it
and I love opportunities to kind of talk about like. on the other side of it. Yes. After some of the mess has died down and some of the consternation has has settled a little bit. Right.
Mattie: And beware of like the deconstruction movement being a little bit like, oh, we're just being zealous in a totally other way.
Like it is becoming borderline dogmatic and some of it, you
Katherine: know, it is. Yeah.
Mattie: So there's no, there is no right way to do deconstruction. There is no, like you The hardest part of life is that there's, we have very little control and that most everything falls outside of a [00:58:00] category. And so the human design is to want to package everything pretty, pretty well.
simply, but that's just not what being human is. And so your role is to, your job is to just develop tools like through the self help and through therapies and different modalities of how to navigate that, but how you navigate it is not a standard, you know?
Katherine: Yep. Absolutely. And, and us by telling folks where they can find your, all of your things and follow you and prep to find your book.
Mattie: So I do have a blog, so in the meantime, while you're waiting for the book to come out, which is September 10th, 2024 mark your calendars. I have an arsenal of amazing writing if I do say so of myself on my blog. So it's maddiejoecowsert. com. I'm sure it'll be in the show notes. Forward slash or backslash.
I can't remember God, sex and rich people, the word. And or if you just Google Maddie Joe Cowsert. You'll find God, sex and rich [00:59:00] people. It's pretty high on my SEO. And then Instagram is at Maddie Joe Cowsert. So my name and subscribe to the blog because I'm making announcements there. But also it's just like, there's a lot there that I talk about dating.
I talk about sex. I talk about faith. I talk about feminism. You know, so, and like what that even is and how it gets such a bad name or bad rap. And And I talk about sexual trauma therapy. I talk about my experience with sexual violence. And so there's a lot on there that you're not just going to get from this, like one hour podcast.
And so I just encourage you to just go crazy and peruse. And most of them are like an eight minute read at most. And then my book is coming out, like I said, September 10th and we're not doing pre orders. So how we're doing it is just mark your calendars and buy the book on the day of. and leave a review you know, hopefully within like 20 days of it being out and an honest review.
I won't ask you for a five star review, but an honest review because what that does is [01:00:00] as soon as a book goes live, the amount of like sales it has is really what matters. The pre sale thing is just if you're doing like your publisher wants to know how interested people are in your book. So I'm just like, whatever.
Everybody just go buy it on the day. Mark your calendar, go buy it on the day. That is the biggest ask I could have from you. And then if you are interested in being part of my launch team, you can DM me and ask me about that, and I can send you, like, what that would entail. You would get an advanced manuscript, and then you would get, like, visuals of things to put on your social media, to kind of, like, shout it out.
And, yeah, and then on my website, I have been on like a ton of other podcasts as well, so if you want to check out those, all the links are there yeah, but Instagram is really the most. I do have a Facebook page for God, Sex, and Rich People, but Instagram is, is the best. And we're going to be doing a launch, an in person launch as well.
I'm going to try to stream it virtually because I also shot a pilot, a God, Sex, and Rich People pilot back in 2021, and I'm going to finally be airing that publicly. So, yeah, lots [01:01:00] happening. Thanks
Katherine: Yeah, all right, everybody. I will put all the links in the show notes and keep an eye out for that book and all of the other things.
Thanks so much.
Uncertain is produced, recorded, edited, and hosted by me, Katherine Spearing. Intro music is from the band Green Ashes.
I hope you've enjoyed this podcast. And if you have, please take a moment to like subscribe and leave a review. Thank you so much for listening and I will see you next time.
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Described as "the public face" of Baptist clergy sex abuse survivors, Christa Brown was one of the first to go public with substantiated child sex abuse allegations against a Baptist minister and documentation that others knew. Since then, for nearly two decades, she has worked to shine a light on the systemic problem of abuse and cover-ups in Baptistland.
Christa has been touted in the London Times as "a whistleblower of historic proportions." Her work was spotlighted on ABC's 20/20, and she has been quoted and featured in numerous news outlets, including New York Times, Washington Post, Associated Press, Houston Chronicle, VICE, Religion News Service, Tennessean, National Public Radio, Baptist News Global, Christianity Today, and Huffington Post.
After a 25-year career as an appellate attorney, Christa became a yoga teacher. As a runner, she once placed first in her age-category in a 10-K. "It was a rainy, blustery day, and I gained the edge by simply showing up," she says.
Though a native Texan, Christa currently lives with her husband in Colorado where she loves to hike in the Rocky Mountains. She is a proud mom and grandma. Connect with Christa on Twitter @ChristaBrown777.
Uncertain is a podcast of Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If youâre enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus.
You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/support
To get in touch with us please email [email protected]
Follow on Instagram @uncertainpodcast
Transcript is unedited for typos and misspellings
[00:00:00] the uncertain podcast is the affiliate podcast of tears at Eden, a nonprofit that serves as a community and resource for survivors of spiritual abuse. This podcast and the work of tears are supported by donations from generous listeners. Like you. If you're enjoying this podcast, please consider giving a donation by using the link in the show notes or visiting tears of eaton.org/support.
You can also support the podcast by rating and leaving a review and sharing on social media. If you're not already following us, please follow us on Facebook at tears of Eden and Instagram at uncertain podcast. Thanks so much for listening. Today I am with Krista Brown discussing her new memoir, Baptist Land, where she discusses her experiences addressing clergy sexual abuse within the Southern Baptist Convention it's a very powerful book. And it is a very needed book for this day and age when it seems like every day we have another story in the news about another clergy person abusing a congregant, a [00:01:00] child. It's rampant. So, super important book.
Really hope that you get a chance to read it. During the interview, we had some internet connection issues. I did my best to remove some of the bumps and clicks and gaps. Hopefully it will not impact your listening experience today. Here is my interview with Krista Brown.
Katherine: How are you doing today, Krista? How has it been since the launch of the book?
Christa: Well, it's been very busy since the launch of the book, but I'm very, very gratified and grateful for for the positive response that there's been.
Katherine: Yeah, absolutely. What are some consistent things that you've been receiving from folks?
Christa: Well, I think among survivors church to survivors, There's a lot in it that really resonates with people and, and I'm glad for that because I [00:02:00] think it helps people See some of the patterns of their own lives and realize that they aren't alone. But of course, it's not just for survivors I mean it also I think has been resonating with a lot of people who simply grew up in these very high control kinds of Religious environments And they see their own, they see those patterns too, even if they aren't the patterns of direct sexual abuse, they're also the patterns, just how much they were under the thumb of this religious control.
Katherine: I think that's one of the things that I really appreciate about the book is that you're not just saying here is the abuse and the abuse is bad and this is why abuse is bad. You're also exposing the theological foundation that is where the the soil for where that abuse grows. Exactly. And I don't I feel like that is missing in a lot of literature about abuse in the church.
There's like this [00:03:00] like qualifying statement of just like, but don't worry, the church is still good. It's just these bad people doing these bad things. And I really appreciate how you expose. Oh, it's a lot more than just a handful of folks being abusive and doing bad things. really appreciate that.
Christa: Yes. And all of that soil, as you call it is very, very powerful and the, the control and the authority and the domination that derives from it is very insidious.
Katherine: Yeah,
Christa: and I think can be enormously harmful.
Katherine: Yes, absolutely. And so complex as you, you showed of just all the different dynamics and for you specifically, you had abuse happening in your home.
At the same time as it was happening in the church. And so it was just kind of all, all of these layers [00:04:00] of social dynamics and family dynamics and power dynamics all wrapped up and, you know, faith in God and all
Christa: normalized. Yes, not only normalized but legitimized by the faith.
Katherine: And anytime.
Anytime. you expressed any like said no or I'm uncomfortable or I don't like this or fight for yourself then it was like immediate gaslighting and immediate like You are the problem. And of course, it's perpetuated of anyone who like, just like raises their hand and just says like, I'm a, I'm a little, you know, and then for incentive for people to even fight.
No, it's happening, but like, to even fight to try and change it. It's you just get squashed so fast.
Christa: That is exactly right. And that's. Why it's so very [00:05:00] hard for people, I think, to step outside of these environments because You know, it's like you're put in this little box and you try to occasionally peek outside that box and you get poked in the eye, you know, and you reach a hand outside the box and it gets slapped down and that box is pretty tight.
It
Katherine: really is. It really is. What are some things that are common for you and for you have seen as common for survivors that are things that are just associated with this type of abuse, the sexual abuse, the spiritual abuse that's happening in these communities that make it difficult for them to interact with faith communities?
Christa: Well, I mean, the, the faith community itself and all of the accoutrements of faith are often kind of neurologically networked in with sexual abuse. And that's not a cognitive thing that people [00:06:00] hold in their heads. It's, it's a physiological response. It's not as if we can reason our way out of it and say, Oh, well, fine.
I'm going back to my faith group. Because there were these good things over there because it's all kind of intermixed together neurologically in the same way that that language is intermixed with everything we hold and think. And I think it's very hard for people at the same time. And a lot of ways if we were, you know, if we've been raised in these faith groups.
from toddler hood. It's almost like we have a chip implanted in our brain because it's very, very hard to get past that that control because we have been indoctrinated and raised To give religious leaders the benefit of the doubt, to be trusting of them to give grace to be good and all that goes along with, with goodness and being good.
Oh, it would just not be so [00:07:00] good, right?
Katherine: But then for the good people, like it works on the good people. And. majority of folks are and so as you just kind of get like sucked into this vortex of just like constant inundation I call it like alien body snatching. We've just been inhabited by a foreign substance that is controlling us.
Oh my gosh. So real. Yeah. Interested in listening to more than 40 archived Uncertain Podcast episodes? All you have to do is sign up to become a monthly supporter of 5 or more. Becoming a monthly supporter will give you access to popular episodes such as Confessions of a Christian Parent and When Bad People Do Good Things.
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Katherine: How did you become [00:08:00] Sort of like a spokesperson advocate for SBC bullshit that is happening in this organization.
Christa: Well, you know, this was never something that I foresaw or planned on. But, you know, in my own life when my daughter reached the same age, Approximately the same age I had been at the time of the abuse.
It just shifted everything it was as though I suddenly saw everything through new eyes and very different eyes. And at that point in time, I was still pretty naive and I thought, Oh gee whiz, if I just talk to church leaders about this, they will surely want to help me. And there'll be older and wiser.
Now they'll want to make sure that this man can't hurt anyone else. Yeah. And, of course, I've never been more wrong about anything in my life. That was not what happened. But as a mother, I just could not accept that. I mean, going to, you know, a [00:09:00] couple dozen Southern Baptist leaders trying to get someone to help with this, and finding absolutely no one.
Yeah. Even though my story was, you know, Corroborated and documented. That was just something that I could not accept and still can't. And then when I wrote my first op ed for the Dallas Morning News, and this is as far back as 2006. I thought, okay, I'm just going to say my piece here and get it out there.
And then I could walk away from all this and never mess with it. But, but what happened was, you know, my email was at the bottom of that op ed piece and and I was just flooded. And so then I, yeah. And then I realized, oh my God, yeah. And I could not, and I just kind of. I've been in this ever since.
So here I am still. Yeah,
Katherine: absolutely. Tell me a little bit about I, I love the letter that you write of just like this perspective [00:10:00] Just because there's no hope for the church doesn't mean there's no hope. Tell me a little bit about that and how that motivates you to sort of keep telling this story and keep saying stuff needs to change.
Christa: Well, it has always, I think, in very large measure been The stories of other survivors that has motivated me and I can't tell all of those stories. I, that I can tell my own story and hope that that helps others in the process and hope that it reveals something of the patterns of what happens in these dreadful dynamics.
And so the book ends with a letter that I wrote to clergy sex abuse survivors survivors. And, you know, at this point in time, I've kind of been in this for about 20 years, and I do not hold hope, certainly not for the Southern Baptist Convention for, for true, meaningful reform. No, they've had countless opportunities to reckon with this, and that's not what they're doing.
But that doesn't [00:11:00] mean there is no hope, because I think in every life. When someone reaches the point that they can begin to look at what was done to them, and even speak it to themselves. Or to close friends what was done and speak the truth of what was done, that that is hopeful for that person's life.
Because it is, it is the truth that carries us forward. And that brings transformation in our own lives. And that's a very hopeful thing. And so I do hold hope for that. And that's why I keep doing what I do, because I do think that truth holds power as a moral force in the universe. And even, you know, even whatever the Southern Baptist Convention ever does or doesn't do.
We still stand in the truth and that truth is what holds power for us.
Katherine: Yeah, the truth alone itself is important and some reason for hope I resonated with that a lot. I [00:12:00] think for the first few years that Tears of Eden existed and the podcast existed. I was kind of focused on like speaking to the church.
Like you need to do better. You need to stop doing this. You need to do better. And then quickly lost steam. I was like, it's not, it's like one story after another, after another, after another. People having very similar experiences to you. Going to the leadership, going through all the quote unquote right channels to like try and address it and getting shut down, getting re traumatized, re abused.
And it's like, and even now just the climate of the church, the institutional church across all denominations, it's like they're digging in and it's like they're just digging in. They're, they're, they're, they're not, there's not even an opening really for any kind of change or reform. It's like they're just, they're kind of circling the wagons and like making this even, you know, more strong stance.
And so [00:13:00] turning to shifting to, I'm not going to try and change this institution. I'm going to talk to the people who have survived was so much more. fulfilling and just like, okay, that institution is going to keep abusing people. And I am going to be here. This organization is going to be here for when those people are needing help.
It sucks. It's not ideal. But I love the way that you describe it as hope, so that this one person individual person collective of people get an opportunity to share their story, and that they are believed somewhere. Massive amount of hope
Christa: there. No, I resonate with that totally because I think for me too.
In the early years, I sort of viewed myself as speaking truth to power. Mm hmm. I don't view what I'm doing that way anymore, because the truth is the powerful [00:14:00] already know. Oh, they do. Yes. Oh, they do. They already know. Absolutely. . so nowadays, I think what I'm really doing is just speaking truth.
With and for the powerless. It is solidarity with them. Yeah,
Katherine: Absolutely. And I, I have stopped calling them are very recently stopped calling them power holders and call them power hoarders because they are just conglomerating and, and not. this is not an accident that they're in these places.
Like they're intentionally seeking and using a platform of religion and God to get to these places. I saw that thread in your book. Do you, I mean, I'm assuming that that was intentional of this thread of, People intentionally using God in the Bible to get to these places. Tell me about that, if that was intentional and what patterns you've seen of [00:15:00] just these type of predators actually intentionally using God in the Bible and the church institution to get these places of power.
Christa: Yes. I'm glad you saw that because of course that was intentional because that is what's happening. And I think you see that in the book. Both on a micro level and on a macro level. It replicates at the macro level. On the micro level, you see it in the way, of course, that Bible verses and Scripture and the whole power of the faith.
It is used literally as a weapon for child rape. at the macro level though, in this day and time, we are very much, I think, seeing something quite similar in the way that biblical perspective is essentially being used very often as a propaganda tool for maintaining status quo power. Yeah. And essentially using evangelical theology to legitimize authoritarianism.
Mm hmm. And I [00:16:00] think those are kind of the same thing there. Using faith as a tool and a weapon for domination and control. Mm hmm.
Katherine: Speak to the person who thinks that they can address the abuse in the church without addressing the theology.
Christa: You know, I do not think you can do this without addressing the theology, without interrogating
The theology that we see in, in a very broad swath of evangelicalism is a theology of male headship and female submissiveness teaching that men should be in charge and have authority over women and of course also over children.
And that Women, females should submit and even that they should graciously submit. And when you have a theology that teaches that some [00:17:00] people by virtue of nothing more than how they are born should be people who have others in authority over them. That is a theology that lends itself, I think, to abuse.
And when you combine that theology with an institutional structure that is wholly lacking in accountability systems, then what you've done is you've created this Frankenstein monster. That just inflicts enormous harm on so many people. And this theology, it's not as if they simply teach that this is the way it should be.
They're teaching that this is the way God says it should be. And that is incredibly powerful. And I do not think that this that you can solve this without interrogating seriously that theology itself.
Katherine: Absolutely. I'm going to [00:18:00] ask you another question because I know what the critics are going to say.
Hopefully they are not listening to my podcast anymore, but just in case, what about the teaching to the main tenant of complementarianism is that men and women are equal, but they just have different roles. What do you say to that?
Christa: Well, I think it's the same thing that we saw in Southern Baptist theology with their, I mean, with their, the way they addressed race.
And I mean, this began as an institution that was founded for the very purpose of having slaveholding missionaries. It was founded as an institution that sanctified slavery, that consecrated the confederacy, and gave birth to a bloody civil war. This is the Southern Baptist Convention. That is their very roots, [00:19:00] and those roots are still there.
And that, the same theology, That derives from those roots saying that white people should have authority over black people is now the very same theology they're using to say that white men or all men should have authority over all females, they can use that word equal all they want, but separate but equal is never equal.
Katherine: Yeah,
Christa: it's not.
Katherine: Yes. No, I love that you compared it to that, that slogan of separate but equal. Like, if there is something distinctly about your person that is causing the separation, it's not equality. It's, it's just not. You can use that word. It is not true. It's just, yeah, it's not. Yes. I saw in your bio that you're a lawyer or used to be a lawyer.
[00:20:00] I'm a retired attorney. Yes. Retired attorney. What was your And what has been your approach to this from like a legal perspective and like what you think needs to happen legally?
Christa: Well you know, I, I'm a retired attorney, so I don't give legal advice. But certainly I think my background has helped shape how I think about these things.
Or You know I do think that the Southern Baptist Convention has shown that it has no interest, not really, in seriously reckoning with this problem. And the only thing that will bring change in this massive, cantacular, multi billion dollar institution is outside pressure. And that outside pressure comes from lawsuits, civil lawsuits, criminal prosecutions independent investigations and from the media and so, you know, there, there are a lot of problems with bringing civil lawsuits, [00:21:00] particularly here in the south there are a lot of states that have very archaic statutes of limitation that, that impede the bringing of lawsuits.
But I believe that will change over time. I, I hold faith. In the dog
Katherine: statue of limitation all together across the board. Just
Christa: yeah, and I hold faith that that will eventually happen. I think the trend is going that way and I think America's trial lawyers are pushing and I have a lot of faith in America's trial lawyers.
Yeah, it won't happen in my lifetime, but this is the way it's going.
Katherine: Right. Yeah, and I think that that's helpful just kind of clarity for folks who are still relying on bringing in, you know, People to come in and try and do, you know, counseling and try and do, you know, organizational training or coaching or whatever within the institution, the same power power hoarders within that institution [00:22:00] are still controlling.
Even that, like it has to come from outside to make any, if there is going to be any change.
Christa: It does. And I am so grateful also, just want to say here to so many fine journalists who have done enormous work over the past couple decades. We would know so much less. Yeah, about the dynamics of how they hold this power, were it not for the work of dedicated journalists
Katherine: and authors like yourself
Christa: are
Katherine: also for the
Christa: courage and an outspokenness of so many survivors who stepped outside.
The arena and went to the outside and spoke the truth of their stories. Yeah,
Katherine: absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, just for folks who since you do have, you know, the attorney experience. I know a big fear for a lot of folks and I don't know how litigious the SBC is. I'm [00:23:00] familiar with some denominations that are very litigious.
That fear of speaking their own story and then getting having being sued for like defamation or slander. Have you seen any patterns or anything that is helpful in that type of situation?
Christa: I think that risk, of course, is there and the Southern Baptist Convention has certainly shown that it will use scorched earth litigation tactics against survivors.
We certainly saw that it finally came to light in the case involving Paul Pressler where it came to light that they actually had emails among themselves where they showed that they knew that his allegations had serious corroboration and despite that for six years They tried every means possible against him in the litigation process.
We've seen it in the litigation involving another woman [00:24:00] in Kentucky. And I think, of course, what we see in this is, is really where their heart is. They aren't trying to do right by survivors, they're trying to squash survivors every way they can. And, and I know there's, there's a lot of us who were raised in this, in evangelicalism and broad swaths of it that teach that, you know, believers shouldn't sue other believers.
You know what? Get past that. Get past that and get yourself a good lawyer. Get over it. Get past that and go talk to a good lawyer. And maybe there's some, the legal system isn't perfect. And sometimes, given the passage of time and all sorts of factors, there may not be good legal recourse. But it is always worth at least consulting with a good sexual abuse attorney about your options.
Katherine: Yeah. And at least know, at least know what they are. And then there are ways I think also to just like go public about your story. It's so hard when you are the, [00:25:00] the survivor. And so like you are telling your version of the story. But I think that there are ways to like tell the story too.
And so like talking to journalists and stuff too, like how to, how do I phrase this so that. They're going to still come after you, even if you do all of potentially all of the things right that anyone can sue anyone for any reason. But yeah, there are, there are things that we can do to, to protect ourselves.
Right. With a time that we have left I would love to hear just maybe just like your, you would, what wanna say to survivors and people who are reading your book. What do you want people to take away when they read the book,
Christa: you know, to survivors? I say, first of all, you know, the, the very, it is the very nature I think, of sexual abuse that it inculcates in this.
this idea that we don't hold any value. And that's a lie. That is a lie. You are all, each and every one of you, [00:26:00] are human beings of infinite worth. And the lie that the abuse has inculcated and the continuing lie that faith leaders inculcate by their do nothing reactions as though it's no big deal.
All of that, all of that is a lie. So I say that to you. And at the same time, I would also say, you know, it's hard to do, but cultivate your skepticism. And I think that's really important. And don't feel guilty skepticism. They have not earned your trust, not one bit. So cultivate your skepticism and that skepticism, and when we see that faith itself, is being weaponized both to commit abuse and to silence survivors, then it behooves us to cultivate skepticism even as to [00:27:00] matters of faith.
Sure.
Katherine: Absolutely. No, and I appreciate, I appreciate you saying that because I think it's so easy for folks to just say, but then don't give up on God and then don't give up on the church and, and that can just kind of. Defeat everything that comes before that. Yes. And like that avenue of maybe this has done so much to destroy trust that it's no longer worthy of me investing and putting my time and my, my heart and my faith into this that, that, that is a legitimate option for people.
And guilt free. Yes, absolutely.
Christa: That is a
Katherine: legitimate path.
Christa: Yes, give yourself that freedom and focus on yourself and your own healing and make that the priority and let faith fall where it falls.
Katherine: Yeah.
Christa: But focus on yourself.
Katherine: Yeah, absolutely. [00:28:00] Absolutely. Yeah. And that, that, that being so counter to the theology that we were raised with of just like surrender.
I love the part in your book where you're just talking about that all to Jesus. I just surrender him that we all saying. And it was like, it's like an embedded into everything to just divorce yourself from yourself and to like give up everything. And that. When you are doing that, you, you become this ripe victim for for predators because, because there is nothing, no personal internal radar that you are able to pay attention to that you're, you're discouraged from paying attention to it.
In, in the, in these spaces because of this theology. And I 100 percent agree with you. It is worthy of.
Christa: All right, because what we've been taught is our bodies are not our own, our lives are not our own. Our lives are for the service of God, [00:29:00] which often means the service of these men who tell us about God.
Well, we gotta let that go.
Katherine: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Long journey, long journey to get there, but absolutely 100 percent worth it. This was great. This was awesome. This is wonderful. Where can people find you? How can they follow you? How can they interact with you?
Christa: Well, I'm very active on Twitter.
I'm Krista Brown, 777. I also have a Substack newsletter, which is kristabrown. substack. com. Those are probably the two best places. All
Katherine: right, I will put that stuff in the show notes. Uncertain is produced, recorded, edited, and hosted by me, Katherine Spearing. Intro music is from the band Green Ashes.
I hope you've enjoyed this podcast. And if you have, please take a moment to like subscribe and leave a review. Thank you so much for listening and I will see you next time.
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In this episode, weâll discuss how the churchâs common stance on suffering for Christ often gets twisted in such a way that victims feel they cannot leave abusive homes, churches, or jobs.
Rebecca Davis is a trauma-informed writer, book coach, speaker, compassionate witness, prayer minister, and lover of Jesus who lives in Greenville, South Carolina. Her work as a trauma-informed book coach and ghostwriter can be found at rebeccadaviswordworking.com.
Find a list of all Rebeccas Untwisting Scriptures books here: https://heresthejoy.com/books-2/
Listen to another Uncertain Episode with Rebecca S4:E12 Untwisting Teachings Around Loyalty, Sin Leveling, & Bitterness
Uncertain is a podcast of Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If youâre enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus.
You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/support
To get in touch with us please email [email protected]
Follow on Instagram @uncertainpodcast
Transcript is unedited for typos and misspellings:
[00:00:00] I'm Katherine Spearing, and this is Uncertain.
The uncertain podcast is the affiliate podcast of tears at Eden, a nonprofit that serves as a community and resource for survivors of spiritual abuse. This podcast and the work of tears are supported by donations from generous listeners. Like you. If you're enjoying this podcast, please consider giving a donation by using the link in the show notes or visiting tears of eaton.org/support.
You can also support the podcast by rating and leaving a review and sharing on social media. If you're not already following us, please follow us on Facebook at tears of Eden and Instagram at uncertain podcast. Thanks so much for listening.
Katherine: Hi, Rebecca. How are you? It's so good to be here. Thank you for having me, Catherine. I'm excited to talk about your new book, book five, where you're on twisting scriptures about brokenness and suffering. Yes,
Rebecca: book five and the untwisting scripture series. My daughter asked me how many books in this series I was going to write.
I said, I do not know. I'm going to keep going. [00:01:00]
Katherine: Keeps coming up. I'm excited about this one. Because, well, I'm excited about all of them. I think they're all really important, but this one, I think the teaching about brokenness and suffering in the church. will often keep people in abusive situations and keep them recognizing that.
And so this is really important, really, really important. And so we had another interview with you when your book four came out and so I'm going to link that in the show notes so folks have That to listen to as well, but to just get us started, I would love to hear what fuels your passion for writing these books.
Rebecca: Oh boy. That's a really, really good question. For one thing, when I first got started, the first untwisting scriptures book came out in 2016 and then it was about four years before I really got the series rolling, which is not a great way to do a series, but anyway, that's what happened. But my first initial [00:02:00] passion was.
I hated, hated seeing how God, and this was all new to me 10 years ago, seeing how God was being represented as an abuser. And it wasn't that I'd never heard the teachings. It's because I didn't grow up with abuse. I didn't marry into abuse. I hadn't been subject to the abuse, so I didn't see. I was just blind.
To how the logical conclusion of these teachings, where that logical conclusion would go, because it was all theory to me, it hadn't been worked out in practice, but then when I saw when I heard people coming to me about this and saying, well, I was taught you have to give up all your rights was thinking, you know, kind of remember that somewhere.
Well, I'd been to the Bill Gothard seminars that taught about giving up your rights many years before, but I hadn't, and I thought at the time, you know, I just believed everything he said, but there wasn't ever in my life, ever a time when my rights weren't acknowledged. [00:03:00] And just like part of the air I breathed because I was not in abuse.
So then I see when people who are in abuse are being told, give up your rights. I see. Starting in 2012, the logical conclusion this is coming to, that they are going to be absolutely trampled on. And I'm, I'm astonished and appalled at what's happening to these people. And then the next step is I'm astonished and appalled that God is being represented this way.
They think this is what God wants to do. And so that was my initial passion fueling me. Now I'm seeing it actually in the Bible who God really is, that he is not how these people have represented him.
Katherine: Yeah, and and folks are able to determine what that looks like for them and what their beliefs look like for them and not base those beliefs on abusive people who've been teaching [00:04:00] them these abusive messages. And that's I feel like that's really important for me for folks to create their own journey and not base it on because so many things I think in the church are just either tradition.
Or really harmful things that have been taught to us by. Yes,
Rebecca: like listen to authority. You someone wrote to me and said yours that she was taught. I'm supposed to lead and feed and you're supposed to follow and swallow. I think that's how it went. Oh, my God. I thought I had never heard that one reaction to that.
So that's that. That could be so many things. And yet that is so it's like, I was I was feeling some some, some strong emotions in response to that. But it's that authority teaching. Turn your brain off. Turn your brain off. Do not think. If you think, then you've been ungodly or something. You just have to believe me, the [00:05:00] leader, and follow me.
Whereas, I've always believed since I was young and want to encourage other people. Go to the Bible yourself. Look at it yourself. Let's examine everything Untwisting Scriptures books. Go look at it yourself and see what the Bible is really teaching.
Katherine: And be prepared for where that may lead, depending on the environment that you're in.
Rebecca: Yes. And I hope I hope my hope is that it will lead to seeing that God really is a God who loves his people and wants to be with his people. And one of the best representations in the scriptures, I mean, there are many good ones, but one of the best is that father who's running out to the prodigal son and embracing him and bringing him in and Even wanting to have a relationship with his older son, who's, who's unhappy.
Let's, I'll just put it that way, very unhappy. He wants, he wants relationship. He is a God of relationship. And the more I research the [00:06:00] topic, the untwisting scriptures, the more I see that in my study. God is a God of relationship with his people, healthy, Good relationship, not abusive relationship, not just, just obey me and stop whining,
those are all things that are, I'm very, very passionate about.
Katherine: So , book five, Brokenness and Suffering, what are some of the questions that you're seeking to answer with this?
Rebecca: Yes, well, initially when I started this book, it was going to be called, suffering, dying to self and life.
And then I started finding I realized, Oh, my goodness, I need to talk about brokenness. That's a huge thing. And then that expanded and expanded. And I realized, dying to self and life, you're gonna have to wait for a future book, I just have to focus on these two things for this book. And that's enough. And when I did start the study of brokenness, which I started, there were two things.
One was prompting it. I've been [00:07:00] hearing about brokenness and how we're all broken or we're all supposed to be broken or, or brokenness is, is either godly or it's inevitable. We're just, everybody's broken or something. I was thinking something is off, something is off about all this teaching. And there were two things.
That prompted my research for the brokenness section of this book, which leads into the suffering section. And one of them was a woman who wrote to me about all the triggering songs in church that talked about God in an abusive way. And at the time I thought, well, I didn't like some of these songs, but other ones of them I didn't either I didn't know or I didn't notice.
And she was talking about how, how it says how different songs will say things like, crash into Me. It doesn't say destroy me, but it's almost like it says Destroy me. Mm-Hmm. , like, like completely o overcome me. And Until You, until I'm nothing. Me. [00:08:00] I think that's consume me. That's the one, that's the one consume me.
And when I looked at it through her eyes. I thought, Oh my word, that's right. That's exactly what this says. I am ready to be basically destroyed by God. This, the Bible never speaks that way ever actually. So I think these songs are really problematic as much as some Christians might like these songs and reinterpret the songs in their heads.
I think that the, the songs don't represent. how the Bible speaks about our God with his people. So then and the other thing I said, there were two things. One of them was this, that woman writing to me about the songs. And the other one was a very popular sermon given by Nancy Lita Moss back in the nineties.
And it was, From what I could tell the beginning of her rise in fame. Now she would have already been rising in fame. She was from a very wealthy family was very well connected. but this, [00:09:00] this was at Moody and Moody Bible Institute. she gave a sermon about how everybody needed to be broken. And she's given that sermon again, like in recent days, that was 95 ish.
And this, the most recent ones was 2016 and that I could find anyway. And the message was basically the same. I thought, did she change? Did she modify? But no, they're basically the same message. So I, I took a chapter to talk about the brokenness teachings. like in the songs and what the Bible says about brokenness.
And so I thought, all right, this is what I do. Since I'm in untwisting scriptures, I go through every Bible reference to this concept. And I thought, I will, I probably won't find that much because You know, there just aren't that many references to brokenness in the Bible, but I was really surprised at how much I found about brokenness or breaking in the Bible.
And the references were, I mean, it just delighted my [00:10:00] heart. The references were to God, how God breaks the wicked and, and it's really important for us. to understand that not everyone is the wicked. Do you see what I'm saying? Because in book four, and I had to reference back to book four to distinguish the righteous from the wicked, the wicked are the ones whose hearts are set against God.
Even if, even if they present really well, even if they present as a godly person. And this is what the Bible calls wolves and sheep's clothing, which is why the subtitle of book four is wolves, hypocrisy, sin leveling, and righteousness. Sin leveling is treating all sins as equal. A very important concept to understand when you're going to recognize in the Bible, God breaks the wicked.
To think, wait a minute, I love Jesus, I'm following Jesus. I don't have a heart of hypocrisy as [00:11:00] defined in the Bible, which I outlined very clearly in book four. I don't have that kind of heart. So that means I'm not one of those wicked and I'm not a person who's that God is going to break. Now, maybe somebody else is breaking me, but it won't be God.
You see what I'm saying? Now, there was also the case of Psalm 51, very common verse. David refers to the bones that you have broken being able to rejoice it. So I dig into that Let's look at Psalm 51 because I saw in the scriptures. God breaks the wicked and God breaks the hard hearted believer who needs to be
David
Rebecca: needs something deep to happen to them in order to get them to come back to the Lord.
So those are the only two things I saw the wicked, like in, in judgment, like judgment day and any other judgment the Lord brings. And the hard hearted believer, David was [00:12:00] hard hearted. He was so hard. Hard. All right. Background to Psalm 51. It's the, the repentance mourning confession Psalm after Nathan, the prophet came into David and told him you are the one who has stolen somebody else's pet lamb and destroyed it.
So it was in reference to his, his abuse, sexual assault of Bathsheba and the We might say indirect murder of her husband and so broken is needed to happen. Exactly. Exactly. When David committed adultery, or I might say committed sexual abuse, rape of Beth Sheba, he could have repented. Then he could have repented at any time.
He could have turned back to the Lord at any point, but when he, when you see that, not only when she told him, I, I'm going to have a baby. When he, he, he didn't. Like come before the Lord in weeping and mourning at that time. [00:13:00] He said, okay, I better get her husband out of the way that shows hard heartedness When someone is hard hearted God does knee I would say I would pray for God to do some breaking of that person to break their hearts over their sin That's what happened to David That is a very specific psalm about, about a very specific situation that would apply to people if they are hard hearted.
I don't like all of us, the ones who love Jesus and are following Him and want to do His will and are desperate to do His will, praying that. Because it doesn't apply to us. One of my points in my books, all the way through the books is that not all scripture applies to us. We can learn from all of it, but we don't take all of it and say, this is about me.
That just isn't, it's, it's one of the foundational hermeneutical principles that I follow when I work on my untwisting scriptures books. They don't all apply to [00:14:00] every
Katherine: context. That's right. That's right.
Rebecca: Yes. So then that's that chapter, and I talk about Nancy Liedemaus sermon and the examples that she uses of brokenness.
that either don't apply or don't even make sense. So I do want to point out illogic when, when people are illogical, because illogic happens a lot. And when it's just in a flow, in a flow of things, people might not notice. There's illogic going on because for one thing, they're taught to turn off their brains when they're hearing a sermon.
And that's what I did back in my Bill Gothard days. I just received, received, received. And it was years later that I looked at it and thought, Oh my word, this stuff is terrible.
Katherine: Yeah.
Rebecca: That I did not see it at the time. I will excuse myself because I was very young, but it was still really wrong and I should have been paying attention and listening.
Katherine: I agree with the logic thing. And I think that logic has been a huge part of my story, even when I was young [00:15:00] and. All the way up into my mid twenties, my main abuser, spiritual abuser teaching these things.
And then also teaching us that we need to know our Bible and go and read your Bible. And then I would read the Bible and I would see something different than what they were teaching. And then I would talk to them about it. And then they would tell me that I was wrong. And it was, and the logic of like, that why do you get to be the one if like god is the authority that we're listening to and the bible is what we're supposed to be paying attention to and i come to a different conclusion to you than you why do you get to be the one that decides and i think I believe this person has a lot of different personality disorders because I really believe that they didn't think it was possible for someone to think differently than them.
I think they were so completely flabbergasted. They thought they were so right. And then if everyone [00:16:00] studied the way they studied, then everyone would come to their same conclusion about it. And there was no space for like, nuance, context, the fact that it didn't apply to you and, and just, again, like, the logic of the situation being a massive factor for me to like, wake up to those, you know, Wake up to some of the stuff that was happening and like, this actually is just doesn't make sense, you
Rebecca: know, and you are exceptional that way, because you were actually asking questions.
So many people when they go to the Bible, if they see something, or if their logic, or the Holy Spirit leads them to a different conclusion from what they've been taught. Many, many people will just shut that part out, shut it out, shut it out, because that's heresy if I believe something different from my leader.
And then for [00:17:00] many people, they'll listen to audios of their leader more than they'll listen to the Bible. They'll read things written by their leader more than they'll read the Bible. Yeah. But the fact is that there are certain aspects of biblical doctrine that people have been disagreeing on. Like for hundreds and thousands of years.
It's so true. We're not going to suddenly figure it out. So that's where we say we can, we can have, you know, there are just a very few basics that you agree on to call yourself a Christian. And like, I believe as a, as a Christian. And when I use that word, I want to use it in the way the book of acts uses it rather than the way it's used nowadays.
When I call myself a Christian, I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as my savior. And there are really very few things that will keep me [00:18:00] from fellowshipping or having a camaraderie, let's say, instead of that other word with other people who disagree with me on a lot of different things. So it's just.
I'm so glad you were able to see that. But it really, it's astonishing when you step back and look, this sounds like the way a cult operates. You have to agree with the leader.
Katherine: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that they would discourage you from reading the Bible if more people were doing that. And then like what is the Christian scientists?
Mary Baker Eddy's book is used to interpret the Bible, so they would, like, tell you very specifically, like, this is what this means. So you read it, but you have to have it accompanied with this other voice. So there's a
Rebecca: certain filter. Here's the filter that you have to put over the Bible when you read it.
And if you read it without that filter, then you're in deep, [00:19:00] dark trouble. And you might be headed for hell, you know, so it's that way following your own ways. Yes. Yes. And your own what your own heart is what deceitful above all things, right? That is in that's in one of my untwisting scriptures books. I don't know
Katherine: what that verse means.
Exactly. That's a very common, commonly Misused and abused scripture. Yes, it's
Rebecca: used like an attack rocket, you know, we're gonna, we're gonna mow you down with this one. It's really easy to just be like, well, your heart is deceitful. That's right. It took me
Katherine: a long while to be like, why do you get to say that?
Rebecca: That's right. Because doesn't that mean your heart is deceitful too? Your heart is
deceitful too? Which one's
Rebecca: more? That's right. That's right. And, and it is. It's it can be so difficult for people coming out of these super authoritarian structures to recognize. Hey, I have the Holy Spirit too. I can, I can listen to the Lord [00:20:00] too.
I can read the Bible too. What if I come to a different conclusion about certain things? Does that mean that I'm, that the Lord is going to reject me because I wasn't listening to my authority? Or does it mean? My authority and I are actually my my so called authority and I are actually on the same level ground that we both get to read the Bible and and seek the Lord and ask the Lord what he means.
And maybe we can read other people. I hope some people will read my books, of course, but I never want my books to supersede or be a filter through which you read the scriptures. Read the scriptures and ask the Holy Spirit what they mean. Ask him to help you connect scripture with scripture. I pass on, What I've learned, but I want everybody to dig in for themselves.
And if you come to a different conclusion, I will say, I hope we can still be friends, you know?
Katherine: Oh yeah, exactly. Exactly. I think that that's that's, [00:21:00] that's really great to just hold, hold that space for differences of opinions and not being, and as you said, just like the, Evidence of a cult leader being super dogmatic that this is the way that it exists, but it's so powerful, especially if you're raised in it, like that you can't trust yourself.
And especially if that's assigned to something like, because you're a child, you can't, you have to trust the adults or because you are a teenager or because you are in your 20s or because you are a woman or any of these other. Things that are intrinsic to us that then make us untrustworthy to be able to read scripture and interpret it.
It's really powerful, really difficult. Absolutely.
Rebecca: And, and the environment a child is raised in is huge. A lot of the people who write to me are, you know, People who were raised in in the spiritually abusive environments [00:22:00] that we might call cults. Yes that They're trying to break out of and there are patterns in their mind That they can be changed.
I love how new brain science is showing that new patterns can be formed in the brain. Whereas before they used to talk about the brain, like it was cement and you couldn't do anything about it, but definitely new patterns can be formed. And I do have a free a free guide on my website. Here's the joy.
com. That's called how to enjoy the Bible again, after spiritual abuse, how to enjoy the Bible again, when you're ready after spiritual abuse without feeling guilty or getting triggered out of your mind. Because a lot of people say, when I try to read the Bible, I hear it in my abuser's voice. Yep. And I don't know how to break out of that.
It is possible. It is possible to break out of that, but it can be. a road. It can be a dream. Sure.
Katherine: Yeah. And that was true for me for probably [00:23:00] seven, eight years reading the Bible. And like, I cannot get the interpretation of, you know, this person out of my head. And I mean, that's trauma. It's trauma. It's a trauma bond.
It's a, yes, absolutely. It's very, very deep.
Rebecca: . And understanding those things, I think understanding the, the way the brain works, the mind and brain system. As well as understanding spiritual abuse and then wanting to understand the Bible. I think all of those things need to work together. I think it's good for, for us to have a deeper understanding.
I have something, this is off the subject of book five, but I'm going to tell you this. On my website, heresthejoy. com, I have a statement of beliefs, my statement of beliefs. And one of the sections is called the sufficiency of scripture. And in that section I say I believe the scripture is sufficient to show us who God is, how our salvation is accomplished, what he wants from us, and, and how we can relate to him, blah, blah, blah.[00:24:00]
But I believe the scripture is not sufficient, and was never intended to be sufficient, to tell us all the ways abuse can be executed on people off the way the brain works in trauma and several other things I list there. The script that isn't what the scripture is about. Yeah. So for us to look to brain science or some tools that people use, like, oh, say EMDR, maybe because of how the brain works, isn't going against the Bible.
That isn't what the Bible's about. It can actually be a tool Those things, some of those brainy things can be tools to help us regulate better so that we can come back to the scriptures and look at them fresh and see more clearly after spiritual abuse who God really is, who we really are, and how the world operates, how salvation is accomplished, all of those things.
They can be extremely [00:25:00] helpful.
Katherine: , I remember my main abuser saying the Bible is good enough for everything. It is, is, it is, I don't know if they were use the word sufficient, but like it, it like it is the only book that you need which is so It's so discombobulated when absolutely,
Rebecca: It is the revelation of God to man about God, about salvation.
You know, we can learn about God from nature. We can learn a lot about God from nature, but to understand his plan of salvation, that's in the Bible. But there are other things, like the Bible does not address those things, and it never intended to address those things.
So we've got to get outside of the book. The box of the Bible is sufficient for everything. I, I, I find it so funny and ironic and hypocritical that Jay Adams, the founder of Newthetic, so called biblical counseling. I know all these people. I know all these people. Wrote like a hundred books telling you that the Bible is the [00:26:00] only book you need,
Katherine: you're right, that is so ironic. But read my book to tell you that.
Rebecca: That's right, you've got to read my books. But, but I will go back and say the Bible is the only book you need. Anyway, it doesn't make any sense at all. Yeah, that is
Katherine: your absolute logic. Logic here, right?
There you go. There's the logic.
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Katherine: What are some of the responses that you have received to this particular book?
Rebecca: I get responses. To all my books, pretty often, like some people have just discovered the series and they're reading the whole series and last summer I sent this one brokenness and suffering out to my beta readers, and then my book launch team, and I got a lot of bit strong responses from them about [00:27:00] how, you know, some of them have read all of my books and they, and they think maybe they're all done untwisting all the, all the things.
And they read the next one and they go, Oh my word, there were all these things too. So, so I do often get responses like this was extremely helpful and it has been very freeing to me. Freeing is one of the. One of the most common words I get, and of course, if you're all tangled up, the, the, the subtitle of my earlier books was Untwisting Scriptures that have been used to tie you up.
gag you and tangle your mind. So if those things are being undone, then of course you're going to feel free. I think some church leaders feel afraid of the concept of people getting free because then they maybe they think, oh, then they'll They'll be free to sin. Well, you know, the New Testament talks a good bit about freedom, and it's not freedom to sin.[00:28:00]
It's freedom in Jesus Christ to actually know him, that's when I pound over and over.
I pound on that because that was so free to me 20 years ago when I first understood it, that I wanted other people to know it. All of our righteousness is in Jesus Christ alone, not in the hoops we jump through, not in the list we keep, not in the ways we make ourselves smaller and smaller. Smaller and more and more invisible and more and more ready to be kicked and punched and beaten down.
Not any of that. It is all in Jesus Christ alone. So I do emphasize in this book the importance of understanding that God is not the one, except in those two cases, the wicked and the hard hearted believer. He's not the one who inflicts. This broken, this breaking, he's not the one who [00:29:00] inflicts the, the abuse and a common saying, I guess, in Christendom is we are all broken.
And I've never really liked that one because I thought, how can we all. always be broken. Does God, does God not ever heal? Does he never heal brokenness? I can understand being broken because there are abusers and, and there are people who break and shatter people who, I mean, there's some people who are really, really beaten down.
Isn't God the healer? So why are we going to keep on saying that we're all broken? Can we go to him for healing? Does he heal? That's one of the questions I wanted to grapple with. And Jesus says right there in the scriptures that he has come to heal the brokenhearted and to set the captives free. So I don't think it's scriptural to say we're all broken all the time, [00:30:00] forever and ever.
We can say, actually, he's healed me. Now, I want people to be honest if they still feel shattered if they still feel broken, then definitely. Let's let's Do what needs to be done, not deny that feeling exactly. We don't want to just deny that,
but
Rebecca: we do want to see that healing is possible down the road and coming to the Lord is not an identity
Katherine: that we have to embrace.
That's
Rebecca: right. And there is another thing I addressed in that book two chapters on it, the victim mentality, because it was really bothering me a lot that people were being accused of having a victim mentality. When, familiar with that one, when they want to get help, when they want to warn other people when they need to process their trauma.
I mean, when they express that they don't like something. Yes. Like, Oh, you're just stuck in the past. You just have your victim mentality. [00:31:00] Get out of that. And I think, so what is a victim mentality really? So I do think it's possible to have a victim mentality, but the only. way I saw it as being a real thing is when a person accuses everybody else of always being the problem.
Like everybody else is always taking advantage of me. I lost my last, I got fired from my last 10 jobs, but it was always somebody else. It was always the boss. It was always the co worker. And I thought, That sounds more like an abuser than a victim to me, like abusers or, and maybe, maybe not abusers, but people who just aren't willing to actually look at themselves and see how they need to change.
But to accuse someone of this very victim mentality, that term is always negative to accuse someone of having this victim mentality, when really they are just trying to they're trying to [00:32:00] bring awareness to others of a big problem, like either a problem they need help with or a problem like you've got a problem in your church.
I've heard so often when people are trying to bring awareness about an abuser in the church or lack of safety in the Nursery for example. Yeah. Oh, you're just you're you're just too Stuck in the past because you had childhood trauma yourself. So their own their own ability to see the problems is ignored because They, they're the canary in the coal mine because they have a greater ability to see the problems.
They notice things. Anyway, I'm talking, talking. What do you want to say, Kevin?
Katherine: My, my final question is, you know, kind of, we're talking about it and we're, we're talking about it. We're addressing it, but I would love to hear, are there any specific ways that you have seen this [00:33:00] twisted application of brokenness and suffering, keeping people in abusive systems?
And how have you seen that play out? Oh, absolutely.
Rebecca: One of the chapters in this book is specifically based on a letter I received from someone, and often blog posts or book chapters are based on answers to letters I've received. A woman who was in an abusive marriage for very, very long time, many decades, said it was based on something about something that Puritan had written about suffering, but that's just one of many.
It could have been many, many people writing about suffering and how when we suffer, it's like the suffering of Jesus. And there can be redemption through our suffering because he brought redemption through his suffering. And so she said, I would even look for ways to suffer. Because I felt like that was going to make me more godly.
People say our suffering is going to make us more godly. And so I would look [00:34:00] for ways to suffer. And I would, I don't think she said she was glad when her abusive husband abused her, but she was sure that that was going to make her more godly. And it took her a very, very long time to understand that that was not the heart of God.
And it was right. To get away from suffering at the hands of someone who said, who promised he would love and protect you promised it before a room of witnesses. That's it's, it's so twisted. And I don't blame the individuals for having the twisted thinking, because it's what they've been taught to think that someone who promises at the wedding ceremony, the wedding vows.
Promises to love and protect you and then abuses you that that's a good thing That is not a good thing and yet so much of the church You you need to stay in that abusive marriage. Of course, they won't call it abuse. They'll just call it marriage and [00:35:00] need to stay you need to stay in that marriage and Continue to suffer and god will refine you and he will redeem your marriage and all these wrong teachings That is that keep people in a place of oppression.
So it is, and it's not just marriage. It's also children under abusive parents and abusing trafficking situations. Yes. The abusive pastor. Yes, absolutely. Well, I should just say church leader because he's not really a pastor, but self proclaimed leader. That's right. That's right. There you go. The It's part of this is so I see how all the abusive teachings work together and I address lots of abusive teachings in my five books so far, how all of them work together to create this environment this atmosphere, almost like a web, a web around people, you try to push against it and just you just get more and more stuck in the [00:36:00] web.
Yeah, and, and all of these different things. These teachings that are not the heart of God and not really what the scripture teaches are pushing against people to try to keep them small, keep them contained, keep them from thinking, keep them from listening to the Holy Spirit, keeping them from being able to escape their abusive situation.
So that is my passion to get
Katherine: back to the very first question you asked. And what would you, say to someone who does wake up and recognizes I'm, I'm in this abusive system and this teaching is keeping me trapped here. What would be, you know, maybe like a safe exit plan or what are, you know, what are some initials?
I
Rebecca: actually, I actually don't do exit plans. I refer them to people who do because that's not my specialty. And I want to, I want, I am willing to stay. I love it. Yeah, that's right. I stay in my lane and I'm absolutely willing to [00:37:00] stay connected with people.
You know, they can make appointments with me. We can stay connected by email. One person recently wrote and said, I don't know if you even see this. It might be your assistant who sees it. Well, no, I, I read and answer all my emails, but for actual exit plans, That is, that's huge. People need to have them. But I have connections of people who are passionate about helping people in that way.
And I'm happy to refer them to someone who can do that with them.
Katherine: Great. I appreciate that. Well, thank you so, so much. Tell folks where they can find you and find your book.
Rebecca: Yes. Here's the joy. com is my website and you can see all my stuff there and my books. My Untwisting Scriptures book series are all on Amazon.
. And I've written or co written over 20 books, so I'm well versed in this area and happy to help others. Great. Thank you so much for
Katherine: untwisting scriptures. Thank you, Catherine, for having me. I really [00:38:00] appreciate it. Uncertain is produced, recorded, edited, and hosted by me, Katherine Spearing. Intro music is from the band Green Ashes.
I hope you've enjoyed this podcast. And if you have, please take a moment to like subscribe and leave a review. Thank you so much for listening and I will see you next time.
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Cait West is a writer and editor based in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Her work has been published in The Revealer, Religion Dispatches, Fourth Genre, and Hawai`i Pacific Review, among others. As an advocate and a survivor of the Christian patriarchy movement, she serves on the editorial board for Tears of Eden, a nonprofit providing resources for survivors of spiritual abuse.
In Caitâs memoir Rift, she tells a harrowing story of chaos and control hidden beneath the facade of a happy family. Weaving together lyrical meditations on the geology of the places her family lived with her story of spiritual and emotional manipulation as a stay-at-home daughter, Cait creates a stirring portrait of one young womanâs growing awareness that she is experiencing abuse. With the ground shifting beneath her feet, Cait mustered the courage to break free from all sheâd ever known and choose a future of her own making.
Uncertain is a podcast of Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If youâre enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus.
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Transcript is unedited for typos and misspellings:
I am so excited about today's guest. Kate West has a very special place in my heart. We met over the internet in the very early days of Tears of Eden, in the early days of the podcast Uncertain. She was the first person that I encountered outside of my family who'd Similar to the way that I had, who was talking about it openly in public, online, we have been friends and colleagues ever since then.
Her book is about that experience of growing up in the Christian patriarchy movement in the stay at home daughter movement. We'll talk a little bit about the dynamics of that. podcast before. So I'm going to link to some of those episodes in the show notes. She's also a member of Tears of Eden's editorial board.
and is responsible for a lot of the content that is on the Tears of [00:01:00] Yin blog, the website. Super grateful for her. Very grateful for her story. And here is my interview with Kate West.
katherine: Well, hello, Kate. Hello. How are you? I'm doing all right it is good to see you.
Cait: You too. And I think we both have sunny days. It seems like you have some sunshine in your room.
katherine: Yes. It's going to be, it's going to be a relatively warmer weekend. I think like 60s ish. How's weather where you are?
Cait: Yeah, I think it might get up to 60 today. And I want to, I want to get outside and start. Scraping around in the dirt and get my garden started, but we'll
katherine: see. Speaking of dirt, your book.
Cait: What a segue.
katherine: Your book is called Rift, and you have a metaphor throughout your book about geology. And the earth, you talk a lot about like the earth [00:02:00] and I'm not even going to try to like get into scientific things.
So talk to me about your book, which is the full title is rifts, a memoir of breaking away from Christian patriarchy. You have been on the podcast a couple of times before, so I'm going to link to some of those episodes in the show notes. But talk to me about the, the theme of this book and that metaphor, that geological earth metaphor that you use here.
Cait: If you've listened to other interviews, the other interviews, you'll know I grew up similar to you, like, as a stay at home daughter, Christian patriarchy movement, quiverful. And this book is a story of me growing up in that and not understanding the world I was living in until it started going wrong and how I figured out how to leave and my life afterwards.
And the idea of rifting comes from [00:03:00] this idea in, Well, there's this interesting thing that happens in geology where the earth splits apart and something like continents can be caused by rifts. You might think of like, there's this big rift in Africa where you can see the rift valley. And where I live in Michigan, rift, a rift started the great lakes.
That's, we're surrounded by water in Michigan. And that's, that's partly why I talk about rifting is because I'm surrounded by water and I'm fascinated by this idea of, Breaking away because when I left patriarchy, I, I wanted to start over, start with a clean slate and never have to think about my past again.
And so I wanted to break away, right? But, but I couldn't escape who I am and where I came from. No matter what I tried, it, it kept coming back. And I feel like that trauma is stored in your body and you just can't. Move on without healing from that. So the idea of a rift is both sides of it [00:04:00] are the same materials, you know, the same ground, but over time they change.
in separate ways. So I've, I've moved on from the Christian patriarchy movement. There's still part of me that is because of what happened to me, but I'm changing now and I'm separated from it in a way that allows me to grow. So that's just like a bigger metaphor I'm using throughout the book. It helps me to think bigger picture instead of focusing in on my own story all the time.
It's, it's kind of like a grounding practice.
katherine: Oh, for sure. And it's a perfect metaphor too, because the new space or the new geological formation, Comes from the old and it's still the same earth, but it's a, it's completely new thing. And it's perfect. And I've been thinking about that so much lately, because I think we all have this leaning of [00:05:00] like, of wanting to have a before and an after, and like, I went through this, but then I healed and now I'm better.
And here I am. And this, the reality is. We are impacted forever. Especially something as traumatic as what you went through as what I went through impacted our very identities impacted our bodies. We're never going to not have lived that story, but this. new formation and this new life that we create on the other side of it is, is also possible.
So it's not like it has to control the narrative of at all. That's perfect. I love it. I love it. I love it as a metaphor. Yeah. So just in case folks are not familiar with the Christian patriarchy. Would you mind talking about some of the key factors and, and feel free [00:06:00] to just share like how that showed up in your family as well.
Cait: Sure. I try to explain this in the beginning of the book because it's, I feel like, I relate to a lot of cult documentaries and cult vocabulary, but the Christian patriarchy movement isn't one singular church. It's this bigger movement. And there are churches within that, but they're across different denominations.
And what's really happening is each family is a cult. I know you've talked about that too, where the fathers are the cult leaders and. The mothers, the wives and the mothers are supposed to obey their husbands and all things and then the children under underneath that so It's this hierarchy But it's based on this literal interpretation of of the Bible at least a cherry picked version of that I would say a
katherine: version of the a version
Cait: And it's this it's really problematic [00:07:00] Belief system where men are on the top, women are beneath them and women essentially don't have any agency in this system.
And so you see it in a lot of churches. Some churches will actually say they're patriarchal and they're proud of it, but then other churches will be more subtle about it. And I consider something like complementarianism to be. a version of patriarchy. It's just more, more subtle, something like soft patriarchy.
So the bigger movement, I think we grew up like in the nineties where This was a big part of the homeschooling movement, quiverful ideology, having as many children as you can. So it's all tied together, I think, with that, and it's connected to evangelicalism. So it's very complicated. And people are still living this way, so
katherine: Yes, they are.
A lot of
Cait: churches who are patriarchal.
katherine: And I think the connection between the [00:08:00] extreme version of patriarchy that we grew up with and the evangelical version of patriarchy, I think a lot of folks don't want to acknowledge the connection. And, and I just, I mean, I worked in the evangelical church for almost a decade and they were so proud of how well they cared for women.
And the same things existed, they were just smiling more and weren't as overt about you're supposed to serve men. But, but that mentality was still embedded into it. And I, I sometimes feel like it can be more damaging when it's that subtle, because You're so confused and you're constantly being gaslit.
Yeah. And, and then you can't address it because they're constantly like, you know, but we do , right? We do really, we really care about [00:09:00] women. Yeah. And I think that the argument in the Christian Patriarchy movie is the same thing about caring about women because it's like, this is what's best for you. Like this is God's best.
For you, and we're doing this because this is God's best. Talk about how that dynamic showed up for you of, and just the, so it's your father giving you these rules. What is that extra layer that's added when he's doing it in God's name?
Cait: Right. There's secular patriarchy, right?
And so religious patriarchy takes that idea of men are in charge, men should be the leaders men should benefit from the way society is built, and it adds that level of divine blessing. It's almost like, Back in the day when kings said they were divinely appointed to be kings. So it's your father saying he's divinely appointed to be [00:10:00] the authoritarian leader in your life.
And, If for me, that meant if I disobeyed my dad, it was disobeying God, which meant I deserved eternal punishment in hell. So it's very fear based mentality, but when you believe that you take it very seriously. And so I think that's why it falls under spiritual abuse because you're, they're using God and this threat of, of divine punishment and, and to build, to hold up men with power.
In your life. And so there's, they're talking like they're talking for God, basically, and you're supposed to obey them no matter what. But when you realize that's not actually God's voice, it can be devastating to realize like it's all built on a lie.
katherine: it's a genius mechanism and every cult leader has used it because it works like [00:11:00] to just be able to say like, Oh, it's not me saying this.
Yeah. This is, this is the Lord. I'm just, I'm just following what God, God wants me to do. And the cult leaders will do that. They'll like reflect back onto the deity. And that's what makes it a cult, in my opinion, because. They, they have set themselves up as this divine leader, but in this way that I am special and I am chosen by the Lord, you know, and, and you can't question it.
Cait: Right. And it's like, it's so violating for your, your spiritual life because growing up I really wanted to follow God. I wanted to, I, I was taught that God was loving and that I should. Church. You know, like I belonged and so I really was committed to that. So when the men in my life were using that [00:12:00] against me to keep me under control and to keep me from making choices about my life, especially as I became an adult, it, it was really disruptive to how I even viewed the world.
katherine: Yeah. Cause it's everything.
Cait: Yeah.
katherine: And, and. And I just think of like, how much our identity was rooted in our gender. And like, how, just when you discover gender is a theory. Wait a second. And human beings. We're really not, there's some, you know, normalized like biological differences, but in general, like there's, there's not a lot of difference.
And when you realize how deeply embedded this lie is, and yet it was so much a part of our identity, it's so disrupting. And I think [00:13:00] that that's something that a lot of people can't. Understand and we can we can experience validation on the other side of it of like, well, why did you believe that? Like, that's stupid.
That's dumb. Talk to me a little bit about that. And how do you experience that invalidation from folks once you got out of https: otter. ai Well, why did you stay? And cause you were 20, 26.
Cait: I was 25
katherine: when I left 25 when you left. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Tell me about some of the invalidation that you have experienced.
Cait: Well, I, I avoided talking about it at all for a long time. And I remember the first time I shared a little bit of my story with a coworker. She didn't seem to get it, and then later I heard her talking about me like I was Amish. She was telling somebody that I grew up Amish, and I was like, no, but I didn't correct her, because it's like, well, they're kind of the same thing, it's just they look a little bit different externally.
you know, I knew [00:14:00] right away that, My experience was not the norm and that people wouldn't get it. And so I avoided talking about it a lot and I'm very much a book learner and. You know, being homeschooled, I had to teach myself a lot. So I feel like I studied. Outside culture when I left and try to fit in as best I could.
And I remember another job I was working at a community college and I shared something with a coworker there and he was so confused, like, well, then why are you acting so normal? Like, are you like, why do you speak English? Yeah. Like so confused that I like. was a normal human being. And I was like, I don't know what you, what you want from me.
katherine: What do you want
Cait: from me? Yeah. Cause I think people have this idea that you grow up and you're just like an alien, you know, if you believe extreme, what other [00:15:00] people believe are extreme ideologies. But for us, it wasn't extreme. It was normal. And I just didn't have anything to compare it to. So that was just the way I grew up.
And I. Now that I've left, I don't know if there is like a normal way to grow up. I think people go through a lot of hard times. Yeah,
katherine: absolutely. And people
Cait: believe a lot of, to me, seem like they're strange beliefs. You know, I think a lot of people believe things. It's just a matter of like how committed you are to it and how willing you are to put relationships above your beliefs, which didn't happen in my family.
So
katherine: meaning that you're the beliefs came first,
Cait: right? Like doctrine was more important than people. And I think that's when you get into these cult like environments is when the beliefs are more important. The doctrine is more important. It doesn't matter who's being harmed, especially when you can say, Oh, this is love, even though you're being, I hate that because it's like, [00:16:00] You know, it, it messes with your head when you, when someone's telling you, they love you and this is love and I'm hitting you because I love you.
And then it's just abuse. You just don't have the word for that.
katherine: Yeah. And I think that that's helpful just for wider abuse situations is, this is getting more complex and stuff, but like. This is not presented to people as abuse, like, like nobody, like the leaders and our fathers are not coming at us like I'm here to abuse you.
They are, they are presenting it as love and doing what is right and doing what God wants you to do. And then. If we have any feeling of like, I don't like this, or I don't want this to happen, or I don't like this direction, then we instantly. Self gaslight self and validate because it must [00:17:00] be my problem at must be me not devoted enough to God, or not trusting my father that he actually loves me.
What were some things that I don't want, I want people to read your book, but give me maybe one or two things that caused you to wake up and say something isn't okay here. Like, yeah. And start that process.
Cait: Yeah. And I think it kind of ties into what we were talking about before of, of like the outside world and how they perceive you.
So I, I found that people on the outside thought that I had chosen this life. You know, versus I'd grown up in it. And I think a lot of people in cults. Or high control groups, they might choose initially to join, but then they become so limited in their choices that it's not really true consent anymore.
So I think that's a big misunderstanding. So one of the [00:18:00] biggest things that happened to me, it sounds like such a small thing, but a couple people when I was in, you know, my early twenties, they asked me if I was okay with this life and if this was my choice. And. One of them was my sister in law, my brother had left years earlier, and another person, and they didn't realize how much that affected me because, of course, I had my answers, like, Oh, yes, this is my choice, and I'm gonna be a wife and mother someday.
I don't need to go to college. I don't need to have a job. So I had the script that I could say, But just them asking my opinion and what I wanted, nobody had ever asked me that before, because it didn't matter what I wanted and my choices didn't matter. So, so they didn't have to do a whole lot to get me to think for myself.
It was just a, just a simple question of, well, what do you think? And I was like, well, nobody, nobody cares about what I think. [00:19:00] And
katherine: that
Cait: was really impactful for me. So that's, that's one part. Of me like mentally trying to leave another part in the story is when I have this long courtship and my father puts an end to it.
I'm feeling heartbroken. And then I am punished because I have too many. I feel love for this person that I thought I was going to marry and. In my father's opinion, that's emotional impurity. And so I've basically cheated on my future spouse by loving this other man. And I have to repent and, you know, turn back to the right path.
And I just knew that I just knew in that moment, like, this is wrong. This can't be true because. How could me loving someone be wrong
katherine: or
Cait: sinful or deserve God's wrath? And so I just didn't believe it at that moment. I was like, [00:20:00] that's not true. And I kept that to myself. Well, I actually think I did say something to my dad, like, how can that be wrong?
That didn't go over very well, but
katherine: Oh my goodness.
Cait: It took me four more years to leave, you know, so, but, Okay. Those were big moments for me to shift my thinking and start thinking for myself, start making plans and realizing I might be able to choose something different in the future.
katherine: Mm hmm. I think that's why I enjoy talking to you, like, whenever we get to spend time with each other and talk about our families.
It's just such a It's so soothing and like such a relief to talk to you because I'll tell, I'll tell the story to other people. And there's, there could be fun. I have a group of friends where like, I'll talk about it and we'll just like laugh about it and just be like, Oh my gosh, I'll just like, make fun, make fun of it.
But I think that. Just talking to you, you get how [00:21:00] complex it is. And like, everyone is like, well, I wouldn't put up with that. And I would just, you know, flip the middle finger and I would be done with it. And like all of the layers that are, that are present, not just that emotional layer and that trauma bond and that betrayal bond that exists, but then the Economic layer too, of not having a college degree, not being able to have a career, not having we had skills, like we knew how to do things, but we didn't know how to write resumes.
We didn't know how to, you know interview, we didn't know how to apply for a job, you know, like gratefully we had like, You know, drivers license and social security numbers, but there are plenty of people who don't even have that. And yeah, you know, wives whose have their husbands have their passports locked away in a safe.
And, you know, just like all of these dynamics that, [00:22:00] like, You're you're traumatized and you're in the survival state and you're trying to figure out how to escape with all of these things against you. Like four years is a long time, but it's also like, that's how long it takes to just kind of figure out like what to do, where to go, especially when you and I were both raised in this, like to even have, we don't have a baseline.
to go to. We're having to like create our own baseline with nothing.
Cait: Yeah. And I was so, I was so angry at my younger self for not leaving, like years later in my thirties. Now I've found myself just feeling really pissed at her. Like, why don't you just like give yourself a chance? Cause I lost so much of my, well, I lost my entire adolescence and my most of my twenties to this.
And so [00:23:00] I felt a lot of anger. But then, you know, processing that, feeling all my feelings, you know, what we're supposed to do, and then realizing, all the feelings. I feel all the feelings. And trying to learn to have compassion for her. And I, I do feel differently now. I've shifted to feeling more compassion because she didn't have a lot of options.
It was very unsafe to do anything outside of the rules.
katherine: And
Cait: she didn't know, she didn't have any practice doing that. So
katherine: you
Cait: know, it's, when people are going through this, it's, there's a lot of shame, I think, that we can feel when we don't leave right away or we, you know, we go through stuff and we don't stand up for ourselves.
We can feel a lot of shame afterwards, but I think it's, it's important to not blame ourselves for abuse. That's just, you know, it's not our fault.
katherine: It's not. Yeah. I think one of the thoughts that I had a lot was like, why did I let him do that to me? Like, why did I, what? And it was, [00:24:00] it's just like, I mean, I know I'm just like looking at it, you know, from a distance, like I didn't let him, like, I didn't know that there were, you know, like, like you're, you don't really have any agency and any choice and it's not safe to like fight back or talk back.
And, you know, it's just. It's that reality and it's such a survival mechanism, such a common trauma response to feel that way, because we're, we're trying to create a narrative where we had some control. So then we don't have that same situation happened to us again, and we can avoid it. And, and, and it's, it's difficult to grasp.
That someone, especially in a dynamic like ours, where it was family and it was our father, you know, like to grasp that someone would just mistreat us and to just let all of that be on [00:25:00] them and recognize we did nothing to deserve this treatment and That's so much easier said than done. It is, it's a part of the process of getting to that place where we can let all of that responsibility lay at the foot of the abusers and not carry that and recognize ways that we did fight back.
And that's my next question for you. What are ways that you see now that you did fight back while you were in it?
Cait: I was very good rule follower for most of my childhood. I have older, I had two older siblings. And so watching them get punished, I was like, I'm not going to do that. And so I learned really early on how to get on my dad's good side which sounds manipulative, but really it was just safety coping mechanism.
katherine: Absolutely.
Cait: So, I felt like for most of my childhood, I didn't fight back at all. I [00:26:00] just felt really passive. But the one outlet for me was reading. And for some reason, books seemed non threatening to my, my father, like movies were. So books for some reason seemed mostly neutral to him. So I could go to the library and read almost anything.
I was very good at self policing. I would throw books in the trash if I thought they didn't follow the rules. And I hate that I did that. I hate that I did that. But I still read them. I just felt guilty afterwards. But I remember in my 20s reading a few young adult novels. And like, it just felt like this anthropology, like, class and like the young adult, like, what is a teenager like?
Let me investigate this. What,
katherine: what
Cait: is this
katherine: specimen?
Cait: Yeah. Yeah. And it was, I couldn't relate to what they were doing in the stories, but I could relate to how they felt. And I think I didn't throw those ones [00:27:00] away. I hid them. And I mean, I was in my 20s. I shouldn't have had to hide any books. I know.
katherine: Yeah.
Cait: Things like that, where I was like, I'm going to find this information for myself and not tell anybody. That, that was resistance in a way. It wasn't standing up to my father. I didn't stand up to my father until I realized he was sabotaging every chance at A marriage that I had, and I talk about a few of them in the book, but there was like at least four potential relationships that he shut down.
And the last one is the person I, I married, I'm still married to, and I knew from the previous relationships that I didn't want him to ruin my, the rest of my life, and I was falling in love with this person and didn't want to give up. So that was my big, big deal. My big leap of resistance was saying, I get to love who I love and I'm going to fight for that relationship.
And so that was the big [00:28:00] catalyst for me to leave.
katherine: Yeah. How do you make sense of the fact that like you're being raised to get married and I have the same experience, like in my family of just like we're being raised conditioned incubated to be wives. Yet, it just seems like my father didn't actually want us to get married, like you made it so hard and like any guys that.
You know, tried to do the things they could never get it right. And it was just awful, awful, awful explosions every time. And it was like, do you actually want us to get married? How do you make sense of that? Like watching that happen?
Cait: Yeah. I mean, I just, I can speculate. I don't know. Like I, I've, I can speculate that my father really loves to control.
And it's interesting [00:29:00] because he let my sister get married. Well, she, he found somebody who's just like him for my sister to get married to. And so that went off, you know, she was able to get married and she's divorced now. So she's been through a whole journey of, of coming out that direction. But for me, I don't know if he like, I always, my family always said I was his favorite, which bothers me now.
And I think I was just really good at conforming. And so I don't know if he wanted to let go of his control over me. Like it was really difficult to do anything. And I'm not sure if he would have felt like such a strong person. Like I was for a time, I was the only kid living in the house because my brother had gone to live with the pastor.
It's a whole nother story. With trying to get men to be like leaders, you know, when they go live with your pastor. So I was the only, I was the only kid left, right? So maybe he just didn't want to let go of me. [00:30:00] And who would his, what would his identity be without children to rule over? I don't know. So that's, that's the speculation I have.
But nobody, nobody could was perfect enough. And also I wasn't attracted to people like him. I think
katherine: I
Cait: didn't want to marry somebody who was narcissistic.
katherine: That was part of it. Yeah. If I remember correctly, was your older sister kind of, In quotes, rebellious and like the marriage kind of tamed was like meant to tame her.
Is that kind of like the dynamic that happened there?
Cait: Yeah, she almost eloped with somebody and decided at the last minute not to do that and came home and was like repentant. And then like a year or so later, my dad helped find a husband for her and You know, I, I don't know if she really had a true choice in that relationship.
So it was really, it's really tragic to me to remember those times. [00:31:00] Yeah. Being confused, thinking that she was choosing it. But knowing now that we didn't have many choices at all.
katherine: Right. And,
Cait: yeah, but now seeing her come through that and being a single mom and working and, you know, she owns land now, it's, it's beautiful to see her come into herself now.
katherine: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. The whole control thing around marriage when like, you're being like conditioned for that, but then they sabotage it every turn or, and I, I remember thinking that logically about like, my father like wants me to marry someone like him and similar to you.
That's not gonna work for me. But at the same time, being aware that anyone that was like him, they just massively butted heads. And so it's like, it's not gonna work because someone like him will fight back, you know, like, won't, won't. Won't be the pleasing, compliant, [00:32:00] sit at his feet, learn from him, you know, like, it's like, pick, pick, pick a team, like, which one do you want?
And that, I mean, I think that's a characteristic of both of our upbringings and any cult like setting, high control fundamentalist setting is. Illogic and confusion are everywhere and as like certain as they want it to be and, you know, right and orthodox as they claim that it is. There's so much confusion and just different like speaking out of different sides of the mouth and all really boils down to is that key leader gets to decide.
Cait: Yeah, like the purity culture. The purity culture, like, leads it to everything. So, you know, everything has to be perfect. I grew up, like, really Calvinist. So, like, all your actions have to be perfect. And so, I think that's part of it. Like, you can never find a [00:33:00] suitable husband that was absolutely perfect for me.
Because there's always a flaw that he would find. And I, we live very isolated. So, I imagine if I lived back where I had grown up in Colorado, it would have been a little easier for him to find a husband for me. That would have fit his description, but we lived pretty isolated after at that point. So I don't think anybody measured up to his perfect standard.
katherine: Yeah, he couldn't go on a nation tour to find the perfect husbands. Oh my gosh, it's just like so weird.
Cait: Or writing the letters. He didn't do that. I refused to let him write letters.
katherine: Oh, to, like, seek a husband for you. Yeah,
Cait: because in the book I talk about that one woman who lived with us because she wanted to get married.
katherine: And your father, like, found someone.
Cait: Yeah, he wrote letters to every church in our district, you know, our presbytery, and found somebody. And I was like, that's [00:34:00] not, I do not want you to do that for me. I would be mortified.
katherine: Male order husband. No, not okay. Not okay. Not okay. Were you like expressing like desperation and like wanting to get married?
No. No.
Cait: Yeah. I, I've all my friends got married so young and I was like, I want to fall in love. I want to like travel the world. I didn't really, you know, I had those desires for romance, but not like must become wife and mother that, that really.
katherine: Yeah. I'm glad though. I think it probably saved you. Intrinsic, intrinsic desires, your desires, like what you really wanted actually helped save you.
Cait: Yeah.
katherine: Talk to me about writing and how that played a role has played a role in your journey.
Cait: I think writing has always been like, it's tied with reading books. I've always been away from me to escape. And so I always wanted to write a book. [00:35:00] And I think telling stories was always difficult for me because I didn't have a whole lot of data to write stories from.
But I was just, I just would want it to be a writer. And so when I finally left. I thought, I'm going to go to college and study how to write, you know, and actually learn how to do this. That became a way for me to express myself. You know, I had been, I'm a really quiet person, or at least I used to be.
And so writing is a way for me to use my voice without feeling panicked about being too loud. I don't feel that way anymore, but that's, you know, that's how I felt. And writing, I wanted to write fiction and My own story kept bleeding through everything and no matter what I was writing at school It ended up being about the way I was raised or what I had gone through and I was like dang it I don't want to write about that.
Like this is not important anymore and [00:36:00] That was incorrect and it needed to get written out Like I needed to get it out of my body and onto some paper and that's why I started writing my particular story And it was really freeing. when I started sharing some of it online, that's when I realized I'm not the only person who's gone through this.
That kind of set me off to this whole journey of writing my story publicly and connecting with people who grew up in this movement. And it's been really liberating. Really like, it feels like a lot, a lot of the time because telling our stories is really vulnerable, but I don't, I wouldn't change a thing.
Like, I feel stronger because I'm able to be authentic, you know, instead of trying to hide who I am.
katherine: Yeah, absolutely. Do you feel like this has kind of like gotten it out and that you are ready for [00:37:00] something new or do you feel like there's still more to come? story to tell.
Cait: I feel, I'm really great, really excited to write some fiction now.
I've been like playing around with some stories and I feel like I have some actual outside in the world experience to draw from and maybe something more interesting to say. And so, yeah, I feel liberated now that my story is done. It's out there. It can go do its work and I can write something else now.
So I'm excited to see what that's like. I don't know if I'll ever be able to get away from What I'm interested in like, which is psychology and like personal trauma and resilience and those kinds of themes. I don't know if I'll ever get away from that because that's just who I am, but I don't think I need to write my memoir again.
katherine: Yeah, it's done. I did it. Yeah, we good. What are your hopes and dreams for people reading your book?
Cait: My first, you know, when you're when you're trying to sell a book to a publisher, [00:38:00] they always ask you what your audience is. is and you have like different layers of audience. My number one audience has always been people who grew up like me or who are in domestic abuse situations or who have left those.
I want them to feel seen the way certain books have helped me feel seen because I'm a trans woman. To my knowledge, there's not a memoir out there about being a stay at home daughter or besides maybe the Duggar Girls books. So I think, I'm really hoping that people who grew up this way feel like they can see their own experience on the page and, and help them process, you know, because for me, writing it is a, is the way I process it.
And I'm hoping that people who love to read will, that will help them. And then. I hope that people who didn't grow up this way will have a little bit more understanding of how complex it is. You know, I've, I think some people might say, Oh, this isn't, isn't as extreme as like the book educated [00:39:00] where there's, you know, more physical violence.
But I want people to understand that that doesn't necessarily matter to how people can be harmed. I think
katherine: it's still
Cait: important and we shouldn't shut people down because they don't have physical injuries. I think this kind of abuse is damaging too. I hope it's, it opens that conversation up a little bit more because I think this is a pretty common experience.
katherine: Oh yeah, I think it's so common and I think I would say that's one thing I do appreciate your book is that the normal things that end up making a story sensational like violence or sexual abuse the, the, the level of it isn't there yet you are still able to show the damage. That it did to you and I think that's going to be so validating for so many people and just kind of flipping the narrative, you know, like people just [00:40:00] chase after those types of stories for the sensationalism, but there's a lot of damage that happens in.
The shadows and looks like Christianity looks like love, and you are able to express that really well in your book. So I hope folks, folks read it and tell, tell people where they can find it and tell people where they can find you.
Cait: Yeah. My website is Kate west. com. So I do have links for the book there as well as events I'm doing.
So Come find me where you live. Hopefully I come close to you and you can buy the book anywhere online. It's going to be. In bookstores as well. I know Barnes and Noble is stocking them in, in quite a few of their stores and then you can order them from your independent bookstore. You can ask for them at your library.
So you don't even have to spend money. You could just ask for a copy at your library. Do that
katherine: people! Support [00:41:00] the libraries and support Facebook.
Cait: Yeah, you don't have to support writers just by buying their books. You can get them at your libraries and that really does help because the libraries buy them and then other people can read them too.
And I'm also, there's a hardcover, an ebook and an audio book. So I got to read the audio. If you'd rather listen to me reading the story, you can do that too. So there's all the different formats as well.
katherine: Fantastic. Any other thoughts or any other things that you want to say?
Cait: I'd love to hear what you think about the book when you read it.
I hope there's a contact form on my page, on my website, and I'm on social media, so I'd love to hear what you think. Yeah. Just hit me up.
katherine: Fantastic. I will link to your website in the show notes. Thanks for coming on uncertain and for everybody who is listening and is part of tears of eating community.
Kate is also on the editorial board for tears of Eden. And so a lot of the content that shows up on our blog Kate [00:42:00] has. Generated and some foreign men has been been behind that. So we're super, super grateful for her. And I also realized just this morning that she shouted out to tears of Eden in her book.
And I was so excited. I sent her like a picture and heart eyes and a text because I was like, very excited that she shouted out to to tears of Eden. We're going to be famous now. It's a great resource. Well, thanks again, Kate, thanks for being here. Thank you.
Uncertain is produced, recorded, edited, and hosted by me, Katherine Spearing. Intro music is from the band Green Ashes.
I hope you've enjoyed this podcast. And if you have, please take a moment to like subscribe and leave a review. Thank you so much for listening and I will see you next time.
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Weâre talking about how one of the characteristics of a cult is that they often present as a really good thing. A lot of times, they are doing really good things on the surface. If this werenât the case, people wouldnât be joining them.
Additionally, not every cult starts as a cult. Sometimes it starts as on organization with really good intentions to help people. Weâll discuss all of that, in this episode.
https://www.ted.com/talks/sarah_edmondson_how_to_spot_a_cult
Sarah Edmondson is a Canadian actress who has starred in the CBS series Salvation and more than twelve films for the Hallmark Channel and Lifetime. She is also a well-established voice-over artist for popular series such as Transformers: Cybertron and My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic. In 2005, when NXIVM, a personal and professional development company, promised to provide the tools and insight Sarah needed to reach her potential, she was intrigued. Over her twelve-year tenure, she went from student to coach and eventually operated her own NXIVM center in Vancouver. Questions kept coming up about the organizationâs rules and practices, which came to a head in 2017 when she accepted an invitation from her best friend to join DOS, a âsecret sisterhoodâ within NXIVM.
In 2019, Sarah published Scarred: The True Story of How I Escaped NXIVM, the Cult that Bound My Life, with Kristine Gasbarre. In this tell-all memoir, she shares her story from the moment she takes her first seminar to her harrowing fight to get out. Her full story as a whistleblower is featured in the CBC podcast Uncover: Escaping NXIVM (downloaded over 25 million times) and The Vow, the critically acclaimed HBO documentary series on NXIVM. Now with the launch of âA Little Bit Culty,â Sarah and her co-host/husband Anthony âNippyâ Ames are keeping the conversation going by discussing the healing process with the help of experts and fellow survivors.
Uncertain is a podcast of Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If youâre enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus.
You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/support
To get in touch with us please email [email protected]
Follow on Instagram @uncertainpodcast
Transcript is unedited for typos and misspellings:
Katherine: Well, hello, Sarah,
Sarah: how are you? I'm great. How are you
Katherine: doing? Okay. Do you know? Okay. It has been gloomy and St. Louis and today the first sign of sunshine and I like went outside to like be in the sun, but it was 30 degrees. And so I didn't stay there very long, but. It's beautiful today. Beautiful to see the sun.
How are, how's the weather in your area?
Sarah: I'm in Atlanta. We're in our very brief winter and it's, it's, it's just a couple of weeks, I think. And it really fluctuates on a day to day basis and I have no idea what's in store and I'm just getting used to that as a concept. Yeah.
Katherine: I just kind of ups and downs.
Yeah. Yes. I have relatives in the Atlanta area and I hear about the bipolar weather. Of yeah, very [00:02:00] similar to St. Louis fun times. Well, thank you so much for being here and your openness to telling your story here. Really excited to hear from you just about The impact of your experience in NXIVM and then your recovery process.
You also have your podcast, a little bit culty that I highly recommend to everyone. It's just entertaining. It's good stuff and you learn a lot, but then it's also super entertaining. And so I hope folks will listen to that as well, but you get to interact with a lot of cult survivors through that. And so I w I'm very interested to hear.
Just patterns and things that you have seen as you have been doing your podcast and working with folks in this, this area. But just to just start us, start us off for folks who may not know who you are or have not seen the vow or maybe haven't. About on HBO or the, or have listened to your podcast and you give us a little summary of who you are and why you are here.
Sarah: [00:03:00] Sure. So my cliff notes slash, you know, elevator story, which I've had to use a fair bit since moving to Atlanta is that I am, you know, from Canada, born and raised, I. I pursued acting as a teenager and young adult, and I took a little tangent, a little detour when I joined a personal and professional development program, which I was taking to help me with my goals as an actor and my relationship at the time.
And that was really wonderful in many ways for a long time at first. And it ended up being 12 years later, after many missed red flags, I didn't understand what I was looking at. A high control group or some, some people know this term as a cult, but I realized there's basically bad things going on behind closed doors and the personal development program that I'd been touting for many years as an advocate and as a recruiter for the company.
I say company loosely was really a front [00:04:00] for our pipeline, for the leadership. To coerce and manipulate and ultimately not in all cases and not not for me, but for many people sex traffic as well So that's why it is now known as the sex cult in the in the newsletter And I newsletter sorry in the newspapers The headlines media does love a good sensational story.
Sure do. Yes, as they sure do. And my role in that was that I was one of the whistleblowers that showed the physical abuse, which is the physical manifestation of emotional abuse, which had been going on for years in the form of branding. And I showed that on the New York times cover and that led to an investigation and the trial and eventual conviction of the leader.
Six week trial led to 120 year conviction of the leader. And that was I left six years ago. The trial was about four years ago and three years ago, two and a half years ago. My sense of time is a [00:05:00] little off. My husband and I were in a docuseries that, that documented this whole journey, how we got in and how we escaped on HBO max called the vow.
And that really propelled us into this really interesting space where, where we were now sharing something that a lot of people could relate to is like, Oh, I would've, I would've totally joined that. And that's flipped the script as a lot up until then. So many people we encountered, especially since leaving and shouting from the rooftops, we were in a cult you know, they were watching it going.
I could have, I could have fallen for that when that's very different when the past people would say I would never have fallen for that. And that's opened up a whole, you know, set of bizarre doors and opportunities for us as whistleblowers and survivors to speak about our experience. Educate people. And that's been like a phenomenally rewarding thing.
And ironically, and I didn't say this at the beginning, I, one of the reasons I joined next team as well was to help people. I was, you know, I really enjoyed that process and [00:06:00] now I get to do it for real on the other side and help educate, shine light, prevent, help people get out. If they're already in something, help people heal.
If they've already gotten out. All the different stages along the way and help families. And overall just bring awareness to this topic that is kind of become a lot more mainstream now. Narcissism, cultic abuse, gaslighting. It's much more accessible and people are more aware of it. So it's been an interesting time to be part of the zeitgeist in that way.
And and then now we have a podcast that emerged in COVID when we had stopped acting. So it's been a interesting, organic progression to be a podcaster as I wrote a book and also and now doing more speaking events and panels on the topic. So yeah, here we are. There we are. Yeah. Cliff notes.
Katherine: Yes. I remember watching the vow. I don't remember. I think it was in during COVID watching it and [00:07:00] had just left an abusive church. And that was cult cults like they're definitely very high control, very lot of, you know, stuff being hidden by religiosity and God speak and Jesus talk. And I, I, a lot of us.
who had left were like, have you seen The Vow? Have you guys been watching The Vow? Are you watching The Vow? Because The Vow is like very, very, very similar to what we just went through. And I think that that was the thing that stood out to me as well as how engaging it was. And it just I was like, that sounds like Christianity, like so much of so much of the, the attraction and the way that like the evangelizing that was happening and the way that people were getting brought into this thing that, that was presented as this very good thing.
And in some ways it seemed like it actually was a good thing. Yeah. Tell me a little bit about that part of [00:08:00] it of like what attracted you to this. And like, what, what drew you in as a very professional human being?
Sarah: Yeah. You know what? There's every single group that we've ever talked to anyone about in our podcast.
There is always good stuff on the outside. And that's actually one of the first questions we ask people so that others can. See what some of those red flags are of like, you know, what's the catch with this perfect, shiny, amazing, happy community. Well, what, what drew me in was a number of things. And, and partly it was, you know, the age that I was.
Where I was, you know, doing this acting work and it wasn't really filling my soul. It wasn't filling my cup in terms of like, this is not the meaningful work that I want to be doing. And the thought of. Cause really they offered a lot of things. The community was presented almost in a way that would appeal to whatever the person wants.
And I later learned to do that for others. Like what, what is it that you're looking for? What I was looking for was a, [00:09:00] a community, a supportive, helpful community. I was looking for more meaning and purpose in my life being a, you know, Being in a Budweiser commercial wasn't like really that meaningful to me, even though it paid well, but it was like, this is not what I signed up for or what I wanted as an actor.
And I've always been into personal development. I've always believed that. And I still believe actually that you can work on yourself or be, you know, be better or like work through. And there was a term that they used. I don't think I was really using this term before was limiting beliefs. That there's beliefs that we have, and I actually do believe that we have still believe that we have limiting beliefs about ourselves.
Like
Katherine: something like, I can't do it. Like, yeah.
Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Just like, you know, even as an actor, like even thinking things, thinking something like, which was had at the time, like I always get nervous and auditions, there's some beliefs under that about myself that caused me to be nervous. [00:10:00] Which would limit me about, you know, without, with auditions, cause that's like a big part of being an actor.
So I really love the idea of working through my limiting beliefs, being, the best version of myself and, and striving to follow this model. And one of the things that appealed to me, I mean, I didn't like it at the beginning, but I eventually did like it after my first five day training, which is my first foray into Nexium is they offered this growth path in the form of.
Like a martial arts system with different levels and stripes and colors and I liked that. Like I, there was something about that that was measurable for me. If I do this, I'll go to the next level and that, that appealed to me because an actor, we don't have that either, like get the job or you don't, you don't really know why you do or you don't, and you could do all the right things, but not actually go to the next level.
So I liked the concept of being able to. Complete a task, work on a skill, and, and evolve. It was certainty. With certainty. Yeah, it was [00:11:00] certainty in a very uncertain world. Needless to say, I mean, it was all bullshit, but if it was what it was supposed to be, it would have been great.
Katherine: Yeah. And if it is, if it is something that like is actually delivering what it's promising, then it would be a really awesome. Yes, exactly. Yeah, so, so those were some of the good things that drew you in just to create some context for folks what were some of the, like, things that started alarms, that started going off that were like, Hmm, maybe this isn't what it, what it's promising.
Sarah: I mean, Honestly, there were, there were red flags right from the beginning, but I didn't know what I was looking at. If I had done, if I, if somebody invited me to something now that was. And with the education I have, I wouldn't have even signed the paperwork, let alone attended because I would have known, Oh, I'm feeling pressured and they're using a scarcity mentality in order to, you know, [00:12:00] like this is the only one.
And when, you know, when are you going to do this and when are you going to change your life? And any hesitation I had would be. Proof of how I was not ready to commit to my goals. Like it was a lot of manipulation tactics just getting me there. And then once I was there a lot of red flags in regards to what I now know as setting the stage for future abuse.
Even as simple as they said, like, you're going to feel uncomfortable and you're going to feel like you're going to, you're going to doubt that maybe even this is the right place for you to be. That internal dialogue is an indication of what they call the disintegration. So you're either integrated on a concept or disintegrated and any internal questioning was just a sign that you needed to work on something.
I know. So, if you agree to that, which I did. Because I'm, I'm assuming that these people who, I just never, I never projected bad intent because that's the thing is when you give yourself over to a higher power or a higher authority, [00:13:00] you're saying, you know, better than I do. And tell me, tell me what to do.
Tell me how to be. And I was, I was like, okay, well, I pay just paid like 20. 2, 100 is 2, 500 Canadian to spend five days in a room and I want to work on my issues. I am saying, I trust you. You got to tell me what you see and if what they're saying is different than how I feel, that's a problem.
Katherine: Yeah, absolutely. Oh, and that's such a such an easy thing to happen and then it's presented as you're like to listen to someone else tell you and name you and tell you what you need to work on and listen to someone else outside of you is. Is held up as like a humble thing and like a character quality.
Yes. And if you were to resist and ask questions or say, I don't feel comfortable with
Sarah: this. And that's, Oh, then I'm also being defiant.
Katherine: Yeah. Yeah. Or selfish or, or you don't want to work on your issues or you don't really care
Sarah: about this. Yeah. I mean, they said that you should be able to ask [00:14:00] questions and put your hand up, but it was very clear when people did ask questions, you know, how they felt about that.
And also like it was, I learned very quickly that there were names for the feelings I was having that weren't good. So I was just suppress them. And I want also, I'm a good girl, I want to be a good girl, I want to get it right, I like the gold stars. Yeah. I like the validation.
Katherine: Absolutely. And there was a very clear like type of person that fit and you like, learned to
Sarah: fit.
Yes. I learned to fit and I wanted to get the, I wanted to go up the levels and I wanted to get the next stripe. And I learned to override the feelings because the other thing they said is like, you're here to work on your shit. You're here to work on your stuff. So. Yeah. You know, don't leave. We're just talking about these things.
If the sash around your neck, there was a sash systems for the martial arts ranks. If that bothers you, why can't you even talk about it in a room? Like we're just talking about it. So I should be able to talk about it. And so therefore don't leave. If I'm leaving, I'm just running away from my issues.
so [00:15:00] many double binds. We call them massive double.
Katherine: Yes, literally the phrase that popped into my head. Yes. Well, I, I want folks to be able to hear your whole story. And so I'll just plug your book, which is called scarred. Correct.
Sarah: Yes, thank you. And I don't know if you ever do giveaways on your podcast, but we can do that too.
Katherine: Let's do it. Why not? Yeah, I haven't done one of those in a long time. Let's do it. And then a little bit culty, and then also the vow on HBO, or not HBO on max. So those are places that folks can get more. About your story and actually get your get your full story and all the details about that.
And so I want to step into talking about the impact of this. And if you want to talk about the impact like while you were in it and like what, what this coercive control manipulation was doing to you while you were in it. And then very specifically after after you left, like how was so I'm going to ask you to tell us a little [00:16:00] bit about how you experienced this, this trauma showing up for you and what, what did this experience do to you?
And if you want to also share some examples of just similar patterns you've seen in folks that you have been interviewing on your podcast as well. Yeah, just paint us a picture of what happens after this experience.
Sarah: After leaving? Yes. I mean, there was many different stages, I would say, like I've been out for six years and there was a lot of just grief, like I was, I had a massive PTSD reaction or potentially CPTSD just from the sort of ongoing abuse, but I, in many ways, I was like kind of the, one of the least Can I swear on this podcast?
I was one of the least fucked with because, because I was a recruiter and I brought so many people in many ways, they kind of left me alone. I, I had, I was in Vancouver. I was running, I had been running my center. Which is sort of like a. You know, a separate, like, it's sort of like a franchise. Like I had my, I had [00:17:00] my center and I was using the tools and the parts of the program that were good and that I liked.
And I, you know, brought people in that were going up the pipeline to the leadership. So they kind of left me alone, but I, so I didn't have the same amount of. 100 percent commitment. Like I'd never moved to Albany. I'd never moved and given up my whole life. And I always had my foot in reality. In other words, like my foot outside of the compound, it wasn't an actual compound, but some people gave up everything to be there, you know?
And so that kept me in many ways, it protected me and gave me a soft place to land. There's a lot of people I could go to and that I always knew that we. Were you know, people thought that we were in a cult. I, I knew that. And I, and I thought that they just didn't understand. Mm-Hmm. , right. I just, I was like, oh, they don't get it.
And for, for the first couple of weeks. And, you know, I was just going through those people and being like, okay, you were right. And I'm sorry. And I'm really kind of fucked up right [00:18:00] now. Shouting from the rooftop and like doing all the stuff that we did to get the media attention and things like that so there was like different stages of first I was on this yeah rampage of like I got to take this thing down and I felt like I was one of the There's a few of us that were at the forefront of that and I think in many ways It was the ones that of us that could whereas other people were so had been so head fucked and so gaslit and so manipulated that they were like, you know, literally in bed depressed Couldn't move or, or just had to shut down and like pretend it never happened and move cities and like not even deal with it, which people dealt with it in different ways.
My dealing with it was because I've been so public and so such a vouching you know, zealot. I was like a fundamentalist personal growth junkie. Yeah. This is the way, this is the only way, red flag, to person to, you know, to grow and to reach enlightenment or whatever. Like. And so then on the other side, I had to be just as loud.
So that was like one big stage, and I spent [00:19:00] like a long time just on the phone with people, trying to de enroll them, trying to explain like, yes, I was branded, and no, I didn't consent, and no, I didn't know it was Keith's initials, and like, trying to show them that it was bad. And for the people who are real diehards, there's some people who still don't think that was bad.
Because they've, they've so committed their lives to this path. They're so bought in and to look now and go like, Oh, maybe this isn't good is just too hard for them. Like they're just, yeah, it's
Katherine: just too much given to it and it's
Sarah: just, yeah, it's easier to go. No, this was good. You know, Keith may have. I've heard them say you know, this is, maybe he's not conventional, but he always, he's a good person.
Like they, they can't even fathom that maybe he's a bad person. So. That was one of the stages also was like just really
coming to terms with like I lost so many of my of my good friends and I and I and I lost them [00:20:00] quickly. I lost them overnight. So that was a big part of it. Like leaving my community again because I had some community and friends outside of it. I think that was partly what saved me. I, you know, I hadn't burnt all my bridges, I'd burnt many bridges, for sure, but not all of them.
Thankfully there were some friendships I never touched, I never tried to recruit, even though I did try to recruit many people. So I'd say all of, you know, that was a big stage. And then and then I got pregnant. I got pregnant with my second child a couple years after we got out as I was writing a book.
And that was, I was, I was really working through and like having a big catharsis with that process. And having to also say no to, like, I was at that time I was going to do a Tedx talk and I was going to do a bunch of things. I was like, that's gonna be too stressful. And I want to like create a safe, loving incubator for my baby.
And that kind of forced me to block out a lot of the stuff that I've been doing. There was like a sort of an ongoing campaign still to [00:21:00] expose and destroy and I mean, by say destroy, like, Make sure that nobody else was recruited into NXIVM and those things happen. Like NXIVM itself does no longer exist.
There's no company. Are there people who still believe Keith is good? Yes. So I, that's part of the reason why I'm still talking because I want to get everybody out. . And then, and then, and then I'd say that like, I'm most, I think it's a lifelong healing journey, but there's a lot of things that I've done over the years that have really propelled me to another level of healing and yeah, having kids being kind of forced to stay present and not be in that war, that campaign pulled me to another stage.
And then there's just lots of things I do for self care that I wasn't kind of, I wasn't allowed to do. It just wasn't a lot of time for it. Purpose probably. Yeah. On purpose. Yeah. And just like family time and being able to change my schedule and do things like You know, go to the farmer's markets on the [00:22:00] weekend and the old days when in the cult days that like there was never a free weekend, there was never every weekend if there was a free weekend where there wasn't a training and be like, Who should we fly out from the mothership to like, do a coach summit or, you know, oh, there's nothing happening.
Let's organize a, you know, nationwide or citywide barbecue and like, it'll be a great enrollment opportunity. Like every weekend there was something going on with the You know, with my center and you know, three nights a week as well, Monday and Wednesday. And anyways, it was like always just go, go, go, go, go.
So to be able to get my, you know, reclaim my time and, and like clear my schedule, which I think anyone is in any kind of group doesn't realize until they get out of something and they clear their schedule. They're like, wow, there's so much time devoted to this thing. Right.
Katherine: Absolutely. And then probably like a reward for that time commitment is always more and always more and always pushing and, and, and to some extent that's just like wired into our our society.
So when we get into a group that's like that, that just [00:23:00] feels so, so normal. It's like, that's just what you do in this group. I remember being in the, the abusive church and like. It was going through a lot and a lot of people were leaving and there would be these like events that we would have every year.
And there were a few times where we were like looking around and we're like, we've lost staff. We are exhausted. Can we just not do this event? Can we just Not do this this year, because we're so tired and the leadership was like, it was always like, you know, PR move like no we have to pretend like everything is fine and you have to present like a united front to the, to the, you know, congregation and like having to like, you know, just kind of power through these events, and there wasn't this like posture of like what's best.
For you and care. I mean, like want to like intentionally care for this community. That idea of like, no, we know what's best for you and we know what's best. And this is what what's best looks like and always moving and always pushing. [00:24:00] And yeah, just that, that's that environment that I think so many people can relate with, even like a work culture, you know, like, just like.
Work cultures can be like that too. And I think it's safe for us to say, well, then that's an unhealthy work culture. We're allowed to say that, like, we don't have to just say, this is just normal. This is just the way it is. Like, no, we can say that's toxic. Like that's not a, not a helpful environment.
Did you have any else thing else you wanted to say just about Impact on you, the CPTSD, PTSD, like how is that showing up for you?
Sarah: Yeah, I mean, again, different stages. There was a time at the beginning where I couldn't sleep, I couldn't eat, I lost a ton of weight. I was just like, I was, Nippy called it sniper mode.
We were just so hypervigilant. Yeah. I didn't know if we were being, you know, like, you know, spied on, if they were coming to get us. We just, yeah, we were a mess. That didn't last too, too long in the scheme of things, but I'm still a little [00:25:00] jumpy. Yeah. Like if, you know, it's so funny. I just said that my husband just made a loud nose in the kitchen and I was like, what was that?
Like, you know, I've been broken into. So, you know, things like that. My trust in humanity is definitely restored. Like, it's amazing how, when we stepped away from that. That world, all these incredible people sort of showed up and you'd think maybe I wouldn't trust them right away. But I was like, I, I felt the difference to like a good versus, I wouldn't say bad person, but like, you know, I just, some, some angels showed up and kind of swooped us up and took really good care of us, especially the people that made the vow.
Like that was a really wonderful experience and that impact of doing the vow. You know, that could have, that could have gone so many different ways. Like that could have, that could have been a shit show for us. And it wasn't. And like you said, you're, you and your friends were listening and watching going, have you seen the vow?
I can tell you, I still get messages from people in all different groups and relationships, mostly things like different [00:26:00] religious offshoots or like particularly closed communities or like the Jehovah's witnesses, a ton of Mormons message, the Mormons especially were like, Oh my goodness, we were in lockdown watching tiger King.
And then we were watching the vow and they're like, Holy shit, we're, you know, in a really not good situation. So that, that continues to be very rewarding for me. And, you know, I think that if had there not been so many silver linings from this experience. You know, I don't know if I would have like recovered like I, it was, it was such a, I didn't mention this before the betrayal, the betrayal wound is one of my, one of the things in my, my therapist, I call it therapist Dan Shaw helped me with and who's a, who's a narcissist expert really helped me see is that when you're people that you trust betray you on that level, it can be a wound that is, takes a while to heal.
And these were like. People I considered family who knew what Keith was up to and they were lying to us. And that's something that I never, you know, [00:27:00] and I always say we underestimated people's capacity to lie. We just totally took things at face value. Oh, Keith is celibate. Oh, okay, cool. He doesn't need sex.
Great. What are all these women around him? Oh, that's part of his team. Like, okay. mean, it's so obvious and I feel probably like I was very naive. Now, but,
Katherine: and, yeah, I'm a trusting person, go into relationships thinking, oh, they're lying to me. Yeah. Most
Sarah: people don't. Yeah. But I do, what I do know now, and I see in almost every group, there's some term for it, which is basically like in a group like ours and every, every group we've looked at, there's this sort of.
Belief that it's okay to lie for the greater good, and it's okay to lie to protect the leader. Or, you know, for, there's some other greater reason it's okay to say, you know, no, we're not doing X, Y, and Z if it means to, to print like. The big picture. It's okay. The ends justify the means.
Katherine: Yeah, that ends justify the mean things.
Means [00:28:00] thing. You said that people came in like as you were leaving and kind of supported you and you said it felt different. Can you describe what that different feeling was?
I mean, there was just no manipulation. Like I remember once having a conversation with, it wasn't even my therapist, just somebody who's a, who was a family friend who was a therapist. And I had shared briefly sort of what had happened and his first response was, wow, that sounds like.
Sarah: That sounds really horrible. It sounds really hard. Mm-Hmm. And, and then I was like, whoa. Because in nex Im, if I shared, shared something that bad that had happened, the an the question would be, you know, well, how did you cause that? Mm-Hmm. , and you know, what, you know, or, or, or, how did you author that? Or, what's your responsibility in it?
Mm-Hmm. . Or what's missing in you that you felt like you needed to create that? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So all that kind of bullshit was, really upsetting.
Katherine: It sounds like they believed
Sarah: [00:29:00] you. Yeah, they believed me. Yeah. And that's, that's the thing. And also, I had a lot of moments like that where I was like, whoa.
That other way was actually really bad. And I had no idea how toxic it was until I was No longer dealt with that way.
Katherine: Yeah. Yeah. And in the church world, it's called the, the, the reverse of that is like, well, what's your responsibility or, you know, why don't you give, or you're being bitter or you're angry or whatever.
And then, and then they'll call that accountability and character development and, and it's framed as this like good thing. When it's just. Invalidation and bypassing.
Sarah: Yeah, I definitely see that in almost every religion is that people are shamed into like to not express a concern because then they're then they're complaining or they're stinking thinking or it's negative or whatever.
So they learn to not say it so there's no there's no place to bring forward a concern. And that's a that's a really that's a [00:30:00] really, you know, great protective mechanism for somebody who's a. Cult a hole. Do you know what I mean? Like, or somebody who's just being a, you know wants to abuse power or do bad things if there's no place for the people around them to, to question it or say, you know, is this good or is this bad?
Then that's, that makes the, the clo we call it the closed loop system, right?
Katherine: Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. And all of the accountability is like outward towards everyone else, but then that like, yeah. Leader or leadership doesn't, it doesn't, they don't play by the same rules,
Sarah: like, right. Well, that, and that was something also that I saw as a consistent thing is that all of the dogma and, and, you know, there's like a lot of great truth to taking responsibility for things that happen in your life and that's, it can be a good thing, but if it's always.
It's always your fault. And the other person didn't have any responsibility. Then, and that's, that's something I say all the time. Wait, especially in XM. There's no victims and you create everything in your life. Now, Keith is in jail. And he's the [00:31:00] victim. Like he's the victim of the like, Oh, the FBI plan. Oh, the FBI must have planted evidence.
Oh, but, but Keith, how did you cause this? How did you get yourself into jail? Like, where is that? Where is it now? Where is it now? You know, and that, that's, that's such a huge inconsistency and inconsistencies are something that if you, you know, you bring up then you're. Not trusting the process or in the yoga communities, like you have resistance.
What's with your resistance?
Katherine: Oh my goodness. Wow. Yeah. Like the inconsistency thing in the as a, as a red flag is, is something that's It seems to happen a lot. And these groups, there's a, there's a double standard where there's between two different people or it's between the leadership and everyone else or whatever.
That double standard inconsistency is definitely something that pops up I would love to hear from you just a little bit about. Recovery has been like, [00:32:00] and what are things that have helped you?
Sarah: Again, different stages. I think the biggest part of my recovery at first was just talking about it and being with other X members and being able to speak freely without the shackles of the language constraints to be able to say, Oh, Oh, remember that time when so and so did this.
That was a really mean thing to do. We never could have talked that way because that would have been. You know, breaking rank and, you know, all sorts of rules, broken images, expressing that way. And I didn't realize how suppressed I was. I couldn't go up line in my, in the authoritarian, you know, thing because they didn't get in trouble.
And if I went down, that's bad leadership. So I was kind of like, you know, hogtied. I could talk to my husband, which is, I think, kind of a rare situation. And most people in my situation, we just couldn't talk to anybody. And also Mark Vicente, who was the person who brought me in. If you've seen The Vow, he's the director that.
That brought me in, but also got me out. So speaking about it, and then you know, Reclaiming my time educating [00:33:00] myself. I did a lot of watching of other documentaries and podcasts and movies and all sorts of things that really helped me connect the dots. And I have notes from my early days of watching movies like going clear and Scientology or holy hell about Buddhafield and just seeing.
Like, holy shit. This is the, it's, it's the exact same. Like really even in our podcast, every time we interview someone, it's like the, it's the exact same template. Yeah. I mean, some of the content, yeah, some of the content points. It always the same school and learned. We did the same school, even like with holy hell, the leaders doing this, forced ballet classes and with us it was volleyball.
But it's the same kind of like obsession with this one thing. Physical, yeah. Just yes. And like, you got to get this thing right, but the performance and the adulation of the leader and all that stuff. So that was really helpful. And then there's a lot of things that I've done, I guess. So therapy wise at different stages, having an actual cult therapist was really helpful for me.
And I saved a lot of time there because not only did he understand the dynamics, but he actually already knew [00:34:00] Nexium, which was great. So if I said, well, Nancy did this to me once, or Keith said this to me or whatever, he knew what I was talking about. Having a psychologist that didn't have cult training was laborious, but also really helpful because I would have to explain things that, that I realized, like, as, as explaining it, I was out of deprogramming myself.
You know, in one particular moment I was saying to him, Oh, well, in our, in our belief system, we. Believed that needs were like survival based, you know, air, shelter, water, whatever. And anything else was considered a desire and therefore a non integrated fixation. You need to work on like, why did you think you needed this thing to be okay?
Love, connection, community, blah, blah, blah. So then he, I remember, cause he didn't know anything about cults and he was like, well, those are needs to survive. But what about needs to thrive? And I was like, Oh, they didn't want us to thrive. And I always thought that the people in Albany who live there look fricking miserable.
And I was like, [00:35:00] that's why they were miserable. They weren't allowed to have a career or relationship because then they were, they were shamed into like, that that was just a deficiency based desire. In other words, there's something wrong with you that you're even searching. Like, why do you even need that from the outside world to be complete?
So that was you know, an interesting process to have a you know, a cult. A therapist and then a regular therapist, but I think a lot of my therapy came from just talking and educating myself and talking to other survivors. And then there's a whole series of things that I've done and continue to do.
Like I'm, I do yoga, but I do like a not culty yoga. Like there's no dogma. There's no education. There's no leader. There's no, it's just more of like a fitness thing. Because that's how I protect myself, like I don't do kundalini or, yeah, like that. I walk a lot, you know, after this podcast, I will walk and, and like, clear my mind.
Some like sort of spiritual, somebody, some might say woo woo practices that I do, but there's no It's not, it's not like a [00:36:00] tied to a certain school or program. It's just like a little practice here, a little practice there. I take my green juice. I'm very health oriented. I'm all about like getting good sleep and all the things that we weren't allowed.
Like I remember when I started Nexium, I was They would say I have, I would have had an attachment to comfort because I was like, I'm getting my eight hours. And they're like, well, why do you think you need eight hours? And I'm like, well, that's just what, how I function best. And I'm like, why do you think that would if it's a limiting belief?
And by the end of it, I was having like four or five hours of sleep a night to prove to them how much sleep I didn't need and how I could be like such a bad ass, you know, but really I do need, like I, I do best on as much sleep as I possibly can get. So prioritizing that and prioritizing what's right for me and not going with somebody else.
Going on what somebody else says is right for me has been also huge. A lot of baths. I take Epsom salt baths for my CPTSD almost every night. Putting a lot of money on hot water. I'm sure.
Katherine: Hey, it's very sensory and it like, yeah, it's you and [00:37:00] your body. It helps you be present. It's
Sarah: yes. Yes. And you could cut this out if you want, but I also microdose psilocybin a fair bit, which also does, does all of those things keeps me, my body has to be present.
I don't get, I'm not doing it to hallucinate or get high on mushrooms, but it just helps me not be anxious. Yes. So yeah, that's, that's kind of, those are my main, lots of variety. Yeah. Lots of variety. And oh, and hiking, I like love being in nature and that's like super important to me. I try to get out at least once a week.
Katherine: What would you say this is something that like is I think just like a constant question that a lot of folks have and something that I'm, I'm kind of exploring as well is like the difference between having someone help you like a therapist and like that language versus a guru who was like telling you what to do and like, what does it feel like to have that difference.
Or what does that difference feel like? [00:38:00]
Sarah: Yeah, I'd say that that like a healthy therapist feels like they're on a journey with me and they're just, , questioning and , it's like they're going down in the cave with me. We're both shining lights and we're looking together. Whereas the, the guru approach or, you know, like an axiom, I always felt like there was literally like a.
Such a power power difference. Like I'm sitting down here and they would be sitting up there like even the seats were raised and we're kind of looking up at and tell me what to do, like, what do you think and Reclaiming that has been definitely been a huge part of my healing.
Katherine: Yeah, so the guru is more like the expert Mm hmm or life telling you how to do it
Sarah: And I have to be so careful with that too, because I do love to give people unsolicited advice. You know, especially in our podcast. I do like to be
Katherine: like, that's not a good thing. Don't do this.
Sarah: And I'm like, you really need to be taking more baths.
Okay. I'm just kidding. But I'm like, well, what, how do I try to phrase it now? I was like, this is what's worked [00:39:00] for me. This is what works for me. And you can do whatever you want. I don't care.
Katherine: Yeah, no, I like the phraseology. I have to do the same thing. It's like, well, you know, I have that same situation and this is what I try.
Yeah. Do with that what you'll exactly. Yeah. And then that would be as opposed to someone who is like, partnering with you in this journey and, and just like being empathetic to the experience rather than telling Yes. That they know better what you need than you do. Yes. Yeah. Exactly. I love that.
That's great. Any, any final things that you would like to share as we wrap up put all of your information in the show notes, but if you have any information that you want to give folks about how to interact with you,
Sarah: I mean, I'd say like if they want to know the full story, my book in combination with the vow, I think is a really good balance because the vow has my story, but also massive gaps in some things that happen.
But the vow [00:40:00] has a lot of other people's stories. And if you want to go down an axiom rabbit hole, there's tons of other memoirs out there. But I think that our podcast I've, I've been told is very therapeutic for people of all different groups, religions you know, even abuse situations because you're hearing the stories from different, different people's perspectives that.
You're not maybe necessarily as attached to like defending or being protective of your group, whatever that is. So when you hear when other people's stories, you're like, Oh yeah, I relate to that. And it can be, well, it's free. It's free therapy. So not that it's not in lieu of therapy. I'm not saying like, don't do therapy, but it's gonna be a bonus.
And I also say, like, there's some episodes that will resonate and some that won't. Just skip them. You don't have, you don't have to listen to all of them. If it's something that that, that is resonant for people, there's a, we're also on Patreon and we do a lot, we do another bonus episode every week.
And that's more casual. And we answer questions from the audience. We do voicemails. And we also have a Goodreads account. I recommend a lot of books [00:41:00] and I interview a lot of authors. So all of the books that we love are on our little bit culty Goodreads account. And I think the best way if you want to just reach out to me personally is on my Instagram.
I, I answer every message. A little bit culty is a little bit backlogged, but people can check us out there as well. And if they want to be a guest, a little bit culty, they can apply through our website. Oh, the one thing I would say also that's really cool, I think that I did recently is a TEDx talk.
I don't know if you had a chance to see it or hear it. Yeah. It's 15 minutes of like the summary of why people need to educate themselves about cults. It's very, it's like a lot. It's like some people call it the best of a little bit culty in a very short period of time. So it's a lot of quick nuggets.
Yeah. And I think, I think your community would like it.
Katherine: That sounds good. I might reach out to you. I might reach out to you later about that because a couple of years ago I had talked to someone about doing a TEDx talk about spiritual abuse and they kind of discouraged me from [00:42:00] it because it's supposed to be inspirational and it didn't, they're like,
Sarah: that's inspirational.
Well TEDx actually has some kind of like a little bit quality rules. Like you can't talk about politics or religion. Okay. It's in, it's in their rule book. But. So talking about spiritual abuse, I don't know how you would frame it in a different way. You have to frame it in a different way. Yeah. Go ahead and talk about spiritual bypassing and just not mention religion.
Ah,
Katherine: yeah, that's true. True, true, true. Cool. Well, thank you so much for giving us your time. I'm excited to just see what, see what develops. Thank you for all the work
Sarah: that you're doing. My absolute pleasure. It's, it's a total joy to talk about and I will continue to talk about it until everybody is out.
So everyone. Yes. Free the slaves.
Katherine: Free the slaves.
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One of our Most Loved episodes from Season Three, exploring common misguided perspectives of anger and how befriending our anger can help us heal.
Dr. Laura Anderson is the cofounder of the Religious Trauma Institute, and founder of Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery sheâs a licensed therapist, and professor of psychology. Instagram//Facebook: @drlauraeanderson
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Uncertain is a podcast of Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If youâre enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus. You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/support
To get in touch with us please email [email protected]
Follow on Instagram @uncertainpodcast
Get more info on Pop Culture and Trauma podcast on Instagram @katherinespearing
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This episode is with Ashley Love Richards and Fallon Morey, cohosts of TSFU the Podcast
Katherine and Fallon play a game with Ashley asking her Christian ClichĂ©s to see if she knows what they mean. We also discuss the perspectives Catholics and protestants have of one another, the origin of Alcoholics Anonymous (spoiler, itâs Christian), and whether or not AA is a cult. This conversation is comical and funâand borderline irreverent.
Shoot Christians Say YouTube Video is the video we watch in this episode!
Katherine was interviewed in The New F Word Episode with TSFU.
Uncertain is a podcast of Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If youâre enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus.
You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/support
To get in touch with us please email [email protected]
Follow on Instagram @uncertainpodcast
Transcript is unedited for typos and misspellings
Katherine: [00:00:00] I actually, hi, Fallon. Hi. These are my two friends that I just met through. That's a fucked up podcast, and we had a blast hanging out and, and, and interview doing an interview. I had a blast hanging out with them and doing an interview with them.
And so we decided to do this episode. Fallon grew up similar to me in
evangelicalism and Ashley did not. So we're going to play a game called Stuff Christians Say, where Fallon and I are going to introduce Christian sayings to Ashley and ask her what she thinks they mean. And this is a like Not a pass fail like no, like there's, there are no stakes here other than testing your Christian, your Christian knowledge before I, I'm going to play a video, a little video to, to get us warmed up, but before I do that.
Ashley and Fallon. I would love to hear what brings you here today. Ashley, go
Ashley: first. What's up, Kathryn? [00:01:00] Hey! Super excited to be here. So yeah, I have a podcast called that's so fucked up and it's about Colts and murder and other generally fucked up stuff.
Although I would say I primarily focus on Colts and coercive groups and I can high control groups. Obviously that's more where your podcast and your stories fit into. I saw Jesus camp 17 years ago when it came out in 2006. I saw a bunch of evangelical children being brainwashed at a camp to Take abortion out of the you know, take abortion rights away because a third of their fucking friends could have been there that night and they weren't.
And then I saw it 17 years later, like right after our abortion rights got taken away. And I was like, hold on, this is a long game. And then I saw shiny, happy [00:02:00] people and I've been obsessed with high control, coercive Christianity ever since. So I'm very excited to have met you through me and Fallon doing a segment called the new f word.
The f word was fundamentalism fundamentalism and Actually, it's really funny or it's actually really fun the episode that Catherine was on was called the new f word the C and F and E words Which sound like they're going to be really bad, but it was Christianity, nationalism, fundamentalism, and evangelicalism.
So, you know, really, I had a lot of fun. I thought that was fun.
Katherine: That was one of my funnest, my funnest or most fun. I don't know. Funnest, funnest episodes that I've ever, ever interviewed on. I had a great time with y'all.
Ashley: I wanted to make sure that we knew what the fuck we were talking about before we started [00:03:00] talking about it, because as you said, I have, I am not religious, I did not grow up with any religion, I have a Patreon segment where I learn about the Bible, it's called Ash Learns the Bible, because I knew about that one story, I think Solomon, where they try to cut the baby in half, and I was like, That is fucked up.
Is there other shit like that? Because I want to hear about it. So, basically, I guess what I'm trying to say is that Christianity has taken over my life somehow.
Katherine: That's an intellectual exercise.
Ashley: Yeah, not in That I'm involved with it, but I'm just fascinated and I'm fascinated
Katherine: when I meet people who didn't grow up the way that I did because it's so normal and it's so normalized and then as you mentioned on the episode that we did together that I will link in the show notes about How 80 percent of [00:04:00] the United States identifies as Christian, there's so much that's just like very inundated into the culture and most people have had some kind of like church experience.
And so when I can't encounter people who don't have any, any upbringing in that I'm fascinated by that. What was your life like? Yeah, it's like, oh! How did you, how did you do
Ashley: that? I'll tell you, I'll tell you one thing that made my life different and a lot better that I definitely know, and Did I grow up with fear and shame as a child?
Yes, I grew up in a house with a narcissist. But, I tell you what, I was not afraid that any fuck up that I did was going to get me sent to hell. I didn't even know about hell, you know? Like, you guys were constantly in fear that you were going to go there. I didn't even know that it was a fucking thing. I think I saw all dogs go to heaven and...
I knew heaven was like a, probably a cool place for [00:05:00] dogs. Yeah. But that was the extent of my knowledge. Right. I love it. I love it. And it has been up until, up until pretty recently. I
Katherine: mean, you're going to know so many things after today, after our game today, the lingo. Yeah. And I, I, I, I'm now I'm like worried.
Is God going to judge us for playing this game?
Fallon: God is not going to judge us for playing this game.
Ashley: They loves it, but welcome
Katherine: Fallon. Tell us today.
Fallon: mainly to talk to you again, cause it was so fun the last time. But then also, like you said, I, I think I've told you before, but I grew up Catholic. So, you know, Catholics are very like religion at arm's length.
There's so many rules. There's very like, you know, you spend a lot of money and you go to mass and the mass has like exercises in it where you stand up and sit down a lot and kneel. And my mom used to, or my uncle used to call them the Pope's aerobics when he would go to [00:06:00] mass. And. Around like high school.
I started to hang out with Christian people who are more in the evangelical crowd, and I, I think I just wanted to be accepted by somebody.
Katherine: Pause. You said you hang out, you hung out with Christian people. Did you not consider yourself a Christian as a Catholic?
Fallon: No, not really. Because I wasn't, I wasn't really yourself.
Catholic. Yeah. Just Catholic. Like it was like it was I don't know, like it, like it was a nationality or something. Like I, I didn't have a concept of what it meant to be religious because I wasn't really connected to my religion. Like it like you had to go to the dentist, but you just had to do it more frequently.
It wasn't like a big deal to me. And then I, I wanted some, like. I want to say I wouldn't, wasn't like meaning and purpose to my life, but I ended up hanging out with kids that like went to church camps and did God stuff. So they bought me my first Bible, the little. [00:07:00] Like tie dyed teen study Bible everyone had in the mid nineties, you know, and They had like the little stories in it and they taught me all about purity culture.
Yay. And like good friends do and and then I sort of went on my own path and discovered You know, religion and church when I was in college and then in when I was in the Navy, I got like rebaptized again and I was like fully into it. I would say only about eight years ago, I stopped believing in going to church.
And I would call myself having been like evangelical during those years. And now I would call myself. I don't know. What is it called when you believe in a higher power, but not necessarily like the Christian
Katherine: God? Spiritual, but not religious. Yeah, that's
Fallon: a good
Ashley: way. Like I think that agnostic means that you believe in a higher power.
You just don't claim to know what that higher power is. And I don't know if something greater than you.
Fallon: Yeah. So I don't know if there's like a higher one power or if it's like the power of the [00:08:00] universe. I think there could be. You know, there's like weird forces out there. I believe in ghosts and maybe reincarnation and all that kind of stuff, but I don't subscribe to like a, a religion.
So I don't I don't find I need it anymore. But then I met Ashley like last year and somehow found myself on this crazy windy road to becoming one of her co hosts, which has been amazing. And we did this F word segment together where I got to meet you. So I think that's, I think that's my path.
That's my my journey here.
Katherine: As you were talking, I thought of two other things to add to the list. It's like, we can't just assume because like, we're too like, like, yes, we're more religious people, assuming that, you know, certain things, but I'm like, we can't assume that Ashley knows these things.
Ashley: Yeah, I actually had two quick questions.
So if you're re baptized, That means you're a born again Christian, which means you're evangelical, right? I just want to make [00:09:00] sure, do I have that right? It's a symbol,
Katherine: but could mean a lot of things. It
Fallon: could mean a lot of things.
Katherine: Like Presbyterians will baptize babies, and it's like a future hope. Like, we're hoping that they will be a Christian in the future, but it's not saying that the baby is a Christian.
Like Baptists will baptize someone as an adult because you have to be old enough to like make the decision yourself. And then that is a symbol that you are a Christian when you are baptized as an adult. So it's different for everybody, but it's like more like a
Ashley: ceremony. And so being born again, that doesn't equate to evangelicalism.
It is. It does. Yeah. It can be. Not always though. See, this shit is slippery. It is. I mean, what? I
Katherine: haven't heard of anyone outside of evangelicalism using born again
Fallon: though. No, that's really a, that's really a, an evangelical kind of terminology. [00:10:00] Which
Katherine: means that you have accepted Jesus into your heart.
Totally.
Ashley: Totally. Yeah. You guys, I put up a video the other day because I, I don't know if you saw it on the story, but it said, when you take your friend to church and they don't know what to do with their hands, and this girl is slowly doing the Macarena.
Katherine: that would 100 percent be me. I'd be like, I don't know what's happening.
Ashley: They're all raising their hands.
Katherine: I remember.
Fallon: Go ahead. Oh, I was going to say my stepfather was not a religious person and my mom used to make him try to go to mass. She quickly abandoned, but he would walk into the church and he, he would go, what am I supposed to do with water?
Like there's a bowl of water. What am I supposed to do with it? And I was like, stick your fingers in it and then blessed yourself. And he's like, what do you mean blessed yourself? And I, so we, we taught him up, down, left, right. And so then anytime we mentioned church for like [00:11:00] the rest of. Their marriage, we'd be like, we're going to church.
And he just like, yell up, down, left, right. Like that was his synonymous word for with church in church.
Katherine: Oh, yeah.
Ashley: I love it. But they told me that spectacles, testicles, wallet, and watch was to help people to remember how to do the
Katherine: Austin
Fallon: powers told you that
Ashley: bitch. Another person, religious person
Katherine: told me that I swear, I swear,
Ashley: or I'm making weird shit up.
Also, you guys, the video I was just referring to, I believe was from Deuteronomemes, which is my favorite new account. I'm gonna follow them after. Fuck. You gotta go follow them. They put amazing Videos of like mega church pastors, wild and out and people going way too hard singing at church. Like it's, it's, it's really good stuff.
You guys,
Katherine: I'm going to, I'm going to follow them [00:12:00] after, but in preparation for this game, I'm going to play a little video for us and folks who grew up. Religious probably I've seen this video, but this is just going to get us warmed up real quick and let's get warm, share my screen. So I'm so
Ashley: excited
Katherine: and here we go.
Bless his heart. You think he's backsliding? I think I saw him drink. Yeah, but in moderation. I just wasn't seeing much fruit. He's going down a slippery slope. How's your heart, man? How's your heart? I'm just such a words guy. It was a total God thing. I'm blessed. Been working on my testimony. Is that secular music?
We're opening with a secular song tonight. Wait, is this a secular song? Isn't she secular? Which station is the fish? 104. 3, the fish. Safe for the whole family. You know he's a believer. I think he's saved. I just pray you'd give him traveling mercies. Pray for all powers unspokens. I echo that. I just really like to echo Pather's prayer, Father.
I echo that echo of my echo of his echo. I really [00:13:00] feel like I'm being released from this, you know? I'm trying to be relevant. I'm just trying to be in the world, not of it. Hey, do you want to join our small group? You want to join my D group? You want to join my cell group? Community group? Access group?
Accountability group? Axe 27 group? Dude, he brought it. He brought the word. That service last night rocked me. They're pretty purpose driven. Yeah, it's Seeker. Don't they do Seeker service there? I feel like he's gotten really watered down. I don't feel like he really teaches the word. It's just not enough meat, you know?
Are they non denom? We have a great Wednesday night supper. Let's invite some dudes over and fellowship tonight. We're gonna have a sick time of fellowshipping tonight. Dude, we had the sickest fellowship last night. We're going straight velocity. Ignite. Yeah, I'm going to ignite. The edge. The dive. The bridge.
The ramp. Fire. Courageous. Passion. Echo. Reverb. Noise. Velocity. Drive. Elevate. Radiate. 722. 635. 419. Orange. Blue. Yellow. Green. Clear. Neon. Catalyst Conference this year. I don't do that because I feel like it ruins my witness. Been struggling with that. I'm really wrestling with a, I'm wrestling with a doubt.
Need someone to hold me accountable. I'm really trying to be intentional with her. I'm [00:14:00] pursuing her, for sure. I'm trying to guard her heart. Guard her heart though, bro. Do you hold me accountable to that? Yeah, well, Bounce your ass. Dang it. Crap. Shoot. Sheesh. Frick. Darn it. What the H? Holy crap. Son of a bee sting.
Dude, he's really teeing me off. I'm gonna kick his ass. Are you assing me right now? Not cool. I find that offensive. I find that offensive. I find that
Fallon: offensive. Oh my god. I don't care how many times I watched that. I watched it right before you got on the call and I watched it yesterday and I still laugh every time, every time because it's, it's.
It's
Katherine: so real and that's literally how people talk though.
Ashley: Let's have some fellowship. I want to say that I understood
maybe about 20 percent of that.
Fallon: This game is going to be amazing. We should watch
Katherine: it again at the end and see if it makes [00:15:00] more sense.
Ashley: Although also, whoo, I got to say some of that brought me back to my AA days. A lot of fellowshipping and AA, a lot of great
Katherine: testimonial, you know, maybe in different words you know, but.
Mm. I have a suspicion that AA is a culti, is culti. Do you think AA is culti?
Ashley: I have a suspicion that I'm really irritated that culti shows don't want to talk to me more about my experience in AA because it was culti as fuck and people are like, Yeah. I don't want to put 12 step programs down. It's like, well, listen, if you knew what I was going to say, it would be that AA saved my life probably.
And I needed that
Katherine: accountability when
Ashley: I started. And then it became a little culty and maladaptive, so I'm not totally talking shit. Not everything that's culty is inherently bad, but
Katherine: well, that's kind of church [00:16:00]
Ashley: is pretty fucking culty motherfucker. Like I did wreck the words. The shit that I did recognize was either from.
AA or the Bachelor because they said a lot of like, what's on your heart in a season of the Bachelorette that I watched
Katherine: Are we ready?
Ashley: Are we ready? Ashley? I'm so ready. All
Katherine: right. I feel like we should have had a game
Ashley: sound. I'm excited as F
Katherine: all right. Take it away.
Fallon: All right. All right. If somebody said to you guard her heart, what does that
Ashley: mean? Be like be a man and make sure that you protect her. That's pretty close. Nailed it. Woo! One for one, Ashley. There's
Fallon: also, there's also a secret meaning which is in the dating, like, in the dating concept. I actually got this one from my husband.
It's like, guard her heart. Basically, don't have sex with her. Like,
Katherine: don't, don't stir up her emotions. [00:17:00] Yeah. Be a good Christian people. Make her want to have sex with you.
Fallon: Yeah. You know, those wily women, they might just want to have sex with everybody. Guard her heart.
Katherine: Okay. And then it's also used in a broader context of just like guard your heart against, you know, temptation, guard your heart against sin, guard your heart about, against desires and yeah, it's a very common, common, So, so
Ashley: you should be guarding her heart against sin and desire.
Yeah. Because you're the man and that's okay. Ew. I hate it. At first. I was like, no,
Katherine: that's cool. You're supposed to guard their eyes. So you're supposed to cover your body to guard your, your brother's eyes. Help him guard his eyes so that he wasn't led into temptation. Yeah. Yeah. You visually see
Ashley: the patriarchy is so strong already.
You guys, I can't
Katherine: get better.
Ashley: Good job. Good job, Ashley. Yay. I don't, I bet I feel like I [00:18:00] didn't get the second meaning, which was so much grosser. It's like, you know, those ladies and the crazy
Katherine: feelings. Oh,
Fallon: no. Well, we'll award points like the way they do on whose line. So we'll, you know, instead of a thousand for that one, you get 500.
All right. Okay.
Katherine: Next. Good job. Good job. You may already know this, but
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And now back to the show. All right. What does
Ashley: [00:19:00] backsliding mean? Okay. So again, I'm kind of thinking AA. Okay. You've made progress on something, and now you're not, you're not making progress anymore or you're maybe even going back into your bad habits.
Katherine: Yeah, I mean, I think it's similar. I think the word backsliding has this idea of like sliding back sliding back your old ways.
And so, yeah, but I think it can kind of be used interchangeably with any sort of like, it's like a slippery slope into into.
Ashley: Sin, if it's temptation and sin. Yeah.
Katherine: And like that was like a slippery slope in the churches that I grew up in, which are very patriarchal and women couldn't be pastors. If you like, let a woman teach on Sunday morning, it was like a slippery slope to like a woman.[00:20:00]
Having leadership and so it would be like a point of contention or a slippery slope would be like, you know, letting your child go to, if it was like, you're only supposed to homeschool your kids, but you let your kid go to a co op, that'd be like a slippery slope to putting your child in school or holding hands is like a slippery slope to having
Ashley: sex.
Oh, yeah.
Katherine: Quite any more to say I'm backsliding quite the
Fallon: jump. Yeah. I just have to wonder why there's so much sliding, like Christianity is on the mountain covered in Ky and you just,
Ashley: any minute you're just ready to like, just slide, slide
Katherine: down. Sliding. Well, there's an a lot of like going upward, like climbing the mountain right.
The heights. There's all this idea of like heaven being above and you're like climbing and you're moving upward and you're climbing the ladder. There's a lot of that. And so then sliding would be like you're sliding back down
Ashley: into the [00:21:00] mire. So if you like stopped praying as much or you started watching secular television.
Fallon: Yeah, that's the one.
Ashley: Whoa. Because I know what secular means. It means like of the non christian world, right? Right.
Fallon: I heard that meaning a lot more what Ash said, which is like somebody came into their belief later in life and they were doing really, really well. And usually they're like on fire for Jesus, right?
Like in the beginning. Oh, yeah. And then. When they're backsliding, it means like, Oh, they, they, I saw them hanging out with a friend who's not in church and I saw them go to the regular movie. So I think they might be backsliding into their
Ashley: secular life. You guys are fucking tripping me the fuck out right now because that is so AA too.
Like backsliding, slippery slope. If you're hanging out with. You know, your old friends who used to [00:22:00] drink and do drugs with that's a slippery slope. If you, if you, if you stop coming to as many meetings, you know, that might mean that you're out. Does AA have a
Katherine: foundation of Christianity? Like did Christianity?
Ashley: Well, motherfucker, I do know the Lord's prayer by heart. So you tell me, I would say big yes, hold on, hold on, hold, hold the phone, hold the phone. Hold on. Dear God. Give us our daily bread. Hold on. Give us our daily bread. Lead us not into temptation and walk through the valley.
Fallon: You've lost some of it.
I think over the years I haven't been to
Ashley: a fucking AA meeting in a long time, but I used to know that shit. Walk
Katherine: through the valley of the shadow of death. Amen.
Ashley: I take a look at my life and realize there's nothing left,
Katherine: [00:23:00] you know, coolio. Yeah. Yes.
Fallon: My guys. I was thinking Amish paradise from Ben's weird.
Owl
Ashley: lives living in an Amish bear. There you go. Love weird. Owl.
Fallon: Well, right now we're definitely backsliding because we're getting secular up in
here.
Ashley: Okay. No, but you guys, are you hearing how many AA connections
Katherine: there are? I wonder, I need to research this now. Did AA start by Christian found with a Christian foundation?
And is, is the prayer from AA that give me the courage to accept the
Ashley: things I cannot? Yeah. Oh yeah. Okay. Hold on. I know that one. That's the serenity prayer. God. I believe it starts with God. No. Yeah. God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
Is that, is that religious? Is that a religious poem?
Katherine: That, that is in religion and there will like that will happen, but like, I don't know which came [00:24:00] first. Did it come from AA into Christianity or did Christianity bring that into AA? I don't know. Shit bitch. I don't know. We should figure it out though. We have another podcast episode coming up.
Yeah, we do. Hey Fallon. So,
Fallon: If I say the term, a baby believer or a baby Christian, what does that mean?
Ashley: Like they just got indoctrinated. Yeah. God, you're so good at this.
Fallon: Contrary to popular belief, it does not mean a tiny baby who is also a
Ashley: Christian. Well, you guys, honestly, I think I've got a little bit of a leg up at this point. If we would have done this episode six months ago, I think that... Right. I probably would have been a lot more lost.
I'm not gonna lie. I've learned a lot about Christianity recently.
Katherine: We're gonna have to go to the hard ones.
Ashley: Yeah, we're gonna have to go to the hard ones. Oh, were you guys starting off with softballs? No, bring it.
Katherine: Yeah, okay, tell me what transubstantiation and the trinity
Ashley: are.[00:25:00]
Okay, good job. Well, you stumped me on A, okay? And the next one was what? Transubstantiation
Katherine: and the Trinity.
Ashley: Okay, the Trinity is the Father, Mary, and the Holy Ghost. Very close. It's the
Katherine: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, yes. The Holy Ghost, Holy Spirit, Holy Ghost. You got it.
Ashley: Hey, what's Holy Ghosting? Is that a thing?
Or is that a sex thing? What? Is that a sex thing? I heard it was like when you come on somebody's back and then leave.
Katherine: Is it that a Superman? Oh
Fallon: my God. The fact that both of you know more than one term for weird
Katherine: sex acts and she's like, no, it's
Fallon: not that weird. It's this other weird superman.
Ashley: We're thinking of the, the Dirty Sanchez, which I don't actually know what that is.
It's different.
Fallon: No, let's talk,
Ashley: talk about that. Life is about the rusty trombone,
Katherine: you know the trans substantiation? You [00:26:00] don't know what that
Ashley: is? No. Okay. The Trinity though. Yeah, that's father, son .
Katherine: Do you know that that means that God is three in one?
Ashley: He's the father and the. No, no, he's a, he's a buy one, get one free deal.
Buy one, get two free. Wow. That's a hot bargain. Hey, question is Jesus God? Yes. Yes. Okay. But I thought Jesus was like God's son. Also, yes. Also, yes.
Katherine: My uncle
Ashley: was my grandpa and my grandpa was my uncle too. Ding a ling What's going
Katherine: on here, dude? Alright, transubstantiation. Both Protestants and Catholics know this one. Transubstantiation means that when you're doing communion, Do you know what communion is? Do you know what communion
Ashley: is? Is that when you eat the...
The bread and the wine? Okay I'm sorry. Can we all just touch on how [00:27:00] fucking weird that is? Body and blood of Christ. Yep, give it to me. Put it in my mouth. I want to eat that and drink that. Are you kidding me? Nobody's fucking thinking this is weird?
Katherine: Yeah, it is weird. And what makes it weird, in my opinion, is transubstantiation and the, the Protestants know this because the Catholics actually believe that the bread and the wine become the body of blood of Christ when you are taking communion, but the Protestants see it as a symbol, not as like actual blood and wine.
And the Protestants know transubstantiation because we know that that is what differentiates us from the Catholics. And what makes the Catholics not Christian is because they believe in transubstantiation.
Fallon: Oh, yeah. Cause you guys will be like, what's so weird guys is they believe that like, that's actually Jesus's like leg or body. [00:28:00] And like I said to Catherine, what's weird is that they believe that God actually talked to them while they were like taking a dump this morning and told them what to do that day.
Ashley: Like go eat me.
Fallon: Yeah. Okay. Yeah, no, no. Just like go to your church and say, God told me this morning that I should ask you guys each for five more dollars. Everyone goes, Oh, he must've actually told him like, that's weird. But the believing that that's Jesus's body is not weird. Whatever.
Ashley: You guys. Catholics are metal
as fuck, dude. It's wild. I'm sorry, but I have been reading some of the Bible and I'm pretty sure that he said cannibalism isn't cool. There you go. There you go. You guys, you know, the Bible, he doesn't God say, doesn't God say not to eat people? Yes. He says yes. He totally [00:29:00] does. I remember it. And they're just up, up there eating him every Sunday.
Catholics. I don't, I don't understand. Catholics
Fallon: believe that like basically set up their mass. So their weekly service is a mass. If anybody, I'm sure people listening to the show do know, but they, the mass is really every Sunday. Each week. A reenactment of part of the Last Supper, what they believe happened at the Last Supper of Jesus, which you'll get to in the second part of the Bible, and so they say, Jesus took the bread.
He gave you thanks and praise. I know the whole mass broke it and said, eat this. It is my body. You know, so he, they believe he said it and that's why they say it. And then they believe that when you wave your hands over the cauldron, it becomes the thing. Not there's no cauldron, but
Katherine: usually put clips of, of conversations, but I want to do that clip because Ashley's face.[00:30:00]
Ashley: What are you talking about? Oh, you guys. And that's Catherine. That's why it's witches are evil. Yeah. I was going to say also that it sounds like witchcraft. So like what? Yeah.
Fallon: Oh God, now I got to find a good one. Hold
Ashley: on. I know that. And that was, that
Katherine: was considered two. So we're at, I think five now.
So we
Ashley: have five more. So when you were, when you asked Callen, sorry, when you asked Fallon earlier, Shut up. Shut up. Shut up. Shut up. So when you asked Fallon earlier, Oh, so as a Catholic, you don't consider yourself a Christian. I thought that was a very interesting question for you to ask because I thought that the big difference was.
Christians, there's a whole bunch of denominations like Protestant and whatnot. And Catholics just like rocked out on their [00:31:00] own. And they were like, listen, you guys can, or I think the Christians were like, this is too metal. We're going to do our own thing. Right. So it's kind of like Catholics versus Christians a little bit.
No.
Katherine: Well, I always heard it like Catholic versus Protestant and there would be people who would be like Catholics are not Christians. And then the Catholics that I knew got offended by that. And we're like, no, we're Christians. And like, you don't get to decide if we're a Christian or not. And worshiping Mary and transubstantiation were the main arguments about why Catholics weren't real Christians.
And so I grew up with Catholic relatives and, and it was always like, are they a Christian or are they not? And
Fallon: I would say largely like my thing was just, I never thought about my faith, like with that kind of question when I was younger, like church is just something you do. And Catholic church is not like.
You know, an evangelical service where like you, you might be crying and you're raising your hands and you're [00:32:00] singing moving songs, closing your eyes and you're like, somebody is preaching from their heart half the time, like Catholic has a very specific service. They have a book that gets published and it's basically like on this day you plug in this reading and it's the same every year and the church is always the same.
The priest gets like a little chunk of time in the middle to say whatever he wants, but that's it. There's no, there's no ad libbing throughout, and so it's not anything you can really attach your heart to, right? Not, not really. And this is, this
Ashley: is like three hours every Sunday? One hour. That's still too much.
One hour. That sounds boring as hell. I mean, honestly, I'd rather go listen to Omega Pastor fucking while out about I, I saw the best one the other day. He's like, We don't make it rain on booty cheeks. That was the first fucking thing he said. He said a whole other list of sinful things that they don't do.
That's hilarious. I just, but I do [00:33:00] remember that. And I was like, Amen. You know?
Fallon: Right. Ashley, I'm going to, I'm going to put a hedge of protection on you. What am I going to do?
Ashley: Well, I feel like it's something to do with protection.
Katherine: Another way would be saying the same would be like, I'm going to pray a hedge of protection over you.
Ashley: Is it like a a forest field, but it's a bush because God appeared as a board, a burning bush. I love
Katherine: it. I love that. That's really complex. It's very simple.
Ashley: Yeah. Basically. Is it not what I said? No, No,
Fallon: it's about protection and it's not really a force field. It's just, you're praying for protection, usually from like Satan, like something's happening in your life and the way I've heard it, Satan's about to get in, like Satan's attacking you from all sides. So I'm, I'm like the way I would surround my house with like a big hedge to keep, keep people [00:34:00] out.
And from looking in my windows, like I'm, I'm praying for like something to protect you from bad forces.
Ashley: Why does it have to be a hedge, though? Yeah, I don't
Fallon: understand the hedge either. I feel like, I feel like, if Satan is really this crazy, powerful being that can influence everything else, he could probably just whip out his chainsaw, right?
Like, get through some leaves. And just, like, right through that hedge, so.
Katherine: You were talking about that before we started. Yeah. About how hedges actually know that. Not that sturdy, but yes, I think a force field is kind of like a spiritual field
Ashley: like you are. Yeah, that's, that's kind of witchy though, you know.
Yeah. Oh, oh, for sure. They would stone me to death or something for that. Hey,
Katherine: I've been asking for y'all to help me find a witch to cast a protection spell.
Ashley: Right? And I was like, I'm a baby witch. I'll buy a book.
Katherine: And as I was looking at the like online, I was like, this is just prayer. Oh my God. This is just [00:35:00] praying like, Oh no, I
Ashley: want to read you some of the, the prayers, the spells.
Oh my God. They sound like prayers. Oh my God. I want to read you some. Not of this one. Spell or prayer. We'll do it after. On
Katherine: that note. If someone were to say I have a check in my spirit, what, what, what do they mean?
Ashley: That they feel like they have accountability within them. Like somebody's checking their spirit, but it's, it's, it's like God within their heart or Jesus. Or whatever. You guys, I'm killing this Christianity game. Yeah. I think I'm so proud of myself. I think
Fallon: I said on a previous episode that you might be a better Christian than any of us at this point.
And it's highly possible that knowledge alone, that might be absolutely
Ashley: true. I'm well, because I didn't grow up with it. You guys, I'm fascinated. I'm like, that's
Katherine: probably like, you're probably retaining it a lot more because it's [00:36:00] fascinating. Whereas we grew up with it and it was just like everyday jargon.
Yeah. And like, we've never had to like explain it to somebody before, but you're learning it in a way. In which you can like explain it to somebody and check in spirit. My grandmother used to say that all the time, just like check your spirit or mind the checks, mind the checks in your spirit, which was like, basically the, yeah, like the Holy Spirit was like speaking to you to tell you something was like dangerous or, you know, stay away from it, or basically intuition, but the Jesus, Jesus version,
Ashley: I'm thinking about how scary it is as somebody with a fucking.
Jesus Christ. Am I right? And how many people in coercive controlling religious groups are being told constantly that they're going to hell and then if they have PTSD or any kind of mental mental illness. People, they're [00:37:00] just told to pray it away. I'm imagining having the mental health issues that I do and being in a situation where everybody around me was like, that's not real, or that's the devil getting you.
Like, holy fucking fuck. That sounds so scary. I'm just imagining if I, like my brain's crazy. And I think if the, if his enough people were telling me that my panic disorder and shit is the devil fucking believe that and they'll be scared the fuck
Katherine: out of me, dude. Oh, absolutely. Interested in listening to more than 40 archived Uncertain Podcast episodes? All you have to do is sign up to become a monthly supporter of 5 or more. Becoming a monthly supporter will give you access to popular episodes such as Confessions of a Christian Parent and When Bad People Do Good Things.
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Fallon: So Ashley, I'm going to ask you, what are your, what are your unspokens?
If I say that, if I say unspoken, what are, what am I talking
Katherine: about? Yeah.
Ashley: Unspoken
Fallon: or I pray for your unspokens. .
Ashley: Oh, thank you. Context. It's like the shit you don't say that you did because it's, it's a, sins be,
Fallon: could be. Usually they're talking about unspoken prayer requests.
Ashley: Like
Katherine: the things that you don't know that you need prayer
Fallon: for.
Yeah. Yeah. Like either I'm thinking about it and I don't want you to know that I'm praying for it or all of like, if I'm like, I pray for all of Catherine's unspokens, it means that I'm praying for all of the stuff she actually needs that she doesn't know she needs. And maybe. Oh, but you know, your pastor may know that you need more than, than you do.
Right. Like pray for all that shit too. So
Katherine: I was 29 years [00:39:00] old, a missionary woman prayed over me and, and she prophesied that I would get married and I would have this, like, we would be like this power couple. And this was like, Almost 10 years ago.
Ashley: Where's your Christian power husband? Where is my Christian power spouse?
Where
Fallon: is your Christian power husband? That sounds like an action figure that we need to develop.
Katherine: But I just remember it being like, they're going to be a power couple lord. A power couple lord. He has a
Fallon: starched white shirt with two buttons.
Ashley: Okay, bitch. Listen, I'm about to throw some terminology down. Is that prosperity gospel?
Not
Fallon: really. Prosperity gospel is more like.
Ashley: Is that like being rich means you're close to God? Yes.
Katherine: Ish. That's prosperity gospel. Yeah. Like God is blessing
Fallon: your life. Or it's okay to have abundant money and not necessarily like help every person with it and keep it for yourself because [00:40:00] God wants you to be rich.
That's what the MLMs like to
Ashley: use. That's some televangelist type shit, right?
Fallon: Yeah. The ones that raise money. Like
Ashley: the guy who has all the planes. Who's that guy? He's big on TV. Olsteen? Probably. Like, he's really fucking rich because he preaches on TV and people are super
Fallon: into it. I don't know if Joel Osteen, maybe there's a few of them, Joel Osteen's the pastor in Texas, right?
And he has like, he has like a giant super mega complex house and like millions and millions of dollars and huge church. Yeah. He's a big prosperity gospel person. Amway likes to tell you to read him.
Ashley: He's a, he's a prosperity. No, no, no. Joel Osteen is a televangelist. So yeah, I think he is the one who's.
Yeah. With the
Katherine: plane. So razy rich. Oh, and
Ashley: like. the planes? I think so. What
Katherine: does it mean to be in the world,
Ashley: but not of it? Okay. So I feel like that means that you have to go to [00:41:00] work, right? And you have to, you have to do stuff that's in the world. But don't let the secular people drag you into their sin because you should be.
More in like the godly world and so it's saying be in the secular world because like you have to also you have to tell people that Jesus is what's up and you know, you got to go out there and like proselytize and let people know that like Catherine I learned this from you that if you're doing good work in the workplace, you're doing it for Jesus Christ.
Did I, did I nail it? Oh, you
Katherine: totally nailed it. 100%, 100 points. 100 of the points. 100 percent of the points. I feel like
Ashley: an amazing Christian right now.
Fallon: You are. You would have giant.
Katherine: You are halfway up the mountain to
Ashley: the kingdom. You guys, I'm on fucking fire for Christ right now. [00:42:00]
Fallon: I need that on a t shirt.
I'm on
Katherine: fire, Ashley. You're a burning. Oh yeah.
Ashley: Oh, I mean, ignite me baby. Cause I can't, I can't get hotter for Jesus. All right. Yeah.
Fallon: Yeah. Anyhow, I think, I think you, cause the last one, the last one, I've had so much fun. Oh my gosh. But you're too good at this. It would be so much better if you were like baby believers are tiny babies that somehow believe like that would have been funny.
Yeah.
Ashley: You guys, you guys didn't know that I was going to fucking bring that, that passion of the Christ heat. You're like a super agent.
Fallon: You are. You're a sleeper agent for Christ.
Ashley: Okay, that's a t shirt.
Katherine: That's a t shirt.
All right.
Fallon: So, I'm gonna end with this one. I'm pretty sure you'll get it. But, if I say, God put it on my heart. [00:43:00]
Ashley: Okay, this is one of the things that I told you I learned from The Bachelor. So, when God puts something on your heart, it means you, like, really need to speak to somebody about something, because if God puts that on your heart, like, fuck, that means you got to do it.
Right? Yeah. That's good. And like people on the bachelor. No one can argue with you about it. No. Yeah. Cause people on the bachelor would weirdly have God put it on their heart that they had to go see the bachelorette like after the rose ceremony. Like God put it on my heart and I needed to come here and yeah, God put it on my heart to come get to know you better.
Yeah,
Fallon: exactly. Somebody justifies their actions by implying that God told them to do a certain thing a certain way or say a certain thing. And like Catherine said, that's the big piece. You can't argue with me because it's from God. Right. Right. God tacked this post it note to my chest that said, you know, I need to, to tell you you're a [00:44:00] jerk or whatever.
And like, I
Ashley: must be, because that's funny because God put it on my heart to Fuckin talk about all of these fucks and expose them for the fuckin dick tits they are. Allegedly. Allegedly. Allegedly, right? Heavy on the allegedly's. That's what,
Katherine: It gets really funky in the dating community. When I'm going to be like, the Lord told me that we were going to get married and they would like tell the person that, or it was like a common, like commonly used excuse for women.
If they didn't want to date somebody, if someone asked them out, it should be like the Lord, the Lord wants me to be single right now. Like God
Ashley: doesn't want, I like that. I would use that even as a secular woman. I'd be like weirdly, I just got in touch with Christ. He put it on my heart to Not date you.
Yeah I, I gotta I just have to trust the Lord on this
Katherine: one. Yeah, no. Yeah, but then strangely, six months later, suddenly God was okay with them being in a relationship.
Ashley: [00:45:00] Yeah. I like that. I kind of like that though.
Fallon: I
Ashley: know. Well, Catherine, that's why I wanted you to look into Twin Flames universe. Because I think that's exactly the, the idea.
That they're running on because I was watching this documentary on Amazon Prime, you guys, it's really great. And I was like, why are they fucking bringing Christianity into this? This is about finding like your soulmate, which actually seems more like some woowoo shit, blah, blah, blah. And it's because they encourage you to stalk your love interest, because if God's put it On your heart to love them.
That means you're supposed to be together and you should pursue them until they realize that that's the correct thing.
Katherine: I know a lot of relationships that turned out that way. Like the, the guy just stalked her for years or the, or the woman did the same thing, like just like hung out for years and years.
Like, [00:46:00] I believe, I believe the Lord has us together. My
Fallon: spiritual gift is stalking.
Ashley: Mine is patience or whatever. Women always get your mercy. Oh, yeah.
Fallon: You're a mercy giver. Patience is definitely not my spiritual gift.
Katherine: All of my spiritual gifts were gifts that women weren't supposed to have like leadership. And
Ashley: why did you get hooked up with those?
Katherine: Yeah, man. Talk to God about that one.
Ashley: You're like, bitch. He put it on their hearts. I don't know.
Katherine: He gave me these gifts and then he gave me boobs. What up?
Ashley: What? Everyone was confused. Okay,
Katherine: so Ashley, how did you feel about this game? I feel like you got at least an A. I feel like I
Ashley: think I know Christianity better than I thought I did. You
Katherine: definitely.
I
Ashley: might know more than some Christians at
Fallon: this point. I think it's [00:47:00] amazing that, you know, you don't even know, like, it's not even that, you know, like Christianity, you know, like Christian slang,
Katherine: that's you're in the world. You are in the
Ashley: world, but I'm not of it. You guys. Okay. Let's get it straight. No secular music or entertainment up in this house.
I only produce the content. Do not listen. Don't listen to it. Good for you. There you go. Yeah. Yeah. You're so holy. You're holy. Holy, holy. I'm holy ghosted Later. So you're holy. Ghosted. . Yeah, . So, Ashley, I don't wanna know,
Katherine: I'm curious, like, what is your feeling about these phrases? Like, did they come across as like, just like super weird and like, this is like this?
Or is it like, oh, this is normal. This is just
Ashley: culture? Well, like I said, part of it felt super familiar because of aa. Which I'm like, yeah,
Katherine: I think that shit's, like,
Ashley: pretty Christian, though. I did say the [00:48:00] Lord's Prayer quite a few times. And... I just also remember a conversation that I had with my mom where she was like, that sounds pretty Christian.
And I was like, no, you don't get it. It's a spiritual organization and like how people in Colts always really argue with people that they're not. We're not, we're not a cold. We're not though. You know, it's like we just have these meetings and you know, the fellowship tonight was like tight as fuck.
You don't know what you're talking about. Yeah. So what I think I do notice, Not so much that it's weird, but that it's culty because one of the big hallmarks of cults is having your own fucking lingo that outsiders don't understand.
Fallon: Great way to keep people who you don't want out out and a great way to keep people who you've got in because everyone likes to feel like they know the group speak, right?
Oh my
Ashley: god, you know, it'd be so fun if I asked you guys if you knew what these AA sayings [00:49:00] meant. Like first things first. Yeah. Anybody? Is that
Katherine: from AA? It is.
Ashley: Yeah, it is. Take a stab.
Katherine: Just focus on what you have in front of you and don't worry about the rest.
Ashley: Yeah. You nailed it. Yeah, basically like so if you, so a lot of people will like get sober and then also become a vegetarian who goes to the gym six times a week and doesn't smoke anymore.
So that is, Oh yes, they just replace the addiction with something else. Absolutely. Absolutely. But you know first things first means, so like if it can mean. Just don't get overwhelmed with everything and just take care of what's most important first. And it can also mean, like, if you're trying to quit alcohol, wait until you feel comfortable with that before you try to quit cigarettes or whatever.
Because, super easy to backslide, very slippery slope. [00:50:00]
Fallon: But you know what? I've heard that when I started, like, when I got came, like, started to go back into like deep Christianity when I was in the Navy, shut up. I heard that from somebody who was like, well, I heard including a God put it on my heart. But he was like, when I first became a Christian, I had it put on my heart that I should only focus on one thing at a time. So like my, he was like, so I would encourage you to only focus on following God for one year and no dating and no thinking about romance for one year, because otherwise you can't be sure that you're doing like that thing correctly.
So yeah, that. That shows up. Like, if you're a new Christian, focus on being a Christian, don't focus on trying to date and, you know, do this,
Ashley: stop it, stop it, stop it, stop it. That is what they say in AA too. They say for your first year, don't date. Don't. All right. I'm going to, I'm going to
Katherine: Google it. Does AA.
Oh
Ashley: my God. I'm freaking out. You guys, I was. [00:51:00] So much more
Katherine: in a cult than I thought
Fallon: what? No, you were just a Christian for
Katherine: a while. I love that Christianity informed your view of AA being a cult. I'm like, oh my god. Oh my god. The similarities
Fallon: are meeting through AA's immediate precursor The Christian Revivalist Oxford Group, they and other alcoholics fellowship there until forming what became
Ashley: AA.
Okay, that's the thing. They realized that the altruistic Christian model, they are. That's what it says somewhere.
Katherine: An altruistic Christian movement is what it says.
Ashley: Shut the fuck up. Shut the
Katherine: fuck up. Where? The end 1935 when
Ashley: it was founded. Okay, so, okay, now I'm starting to remember Bill Wilson the big book.
Bill Wilson of, also the big book the Bible of AA. Bill Wilson, our charismatic leader who gets celebrated on his birthday.
Katherine: Like,
Ashley: like. There's often [00:52:00] a picture of him in the rooms. Oh my
Katherine: gosh, this is such a
Ashley: cold. Freaking out. I, that is why I'm a good Christian. I fucking was a good
Fallon: Christian for quite a while.
Catherine. I almost feel like I need to be like, you need a whole a episode and we should stop this
Ashley: here. Yeah. No, we
Katherine: got to stop now. Cause this is crazy. Christian and the ASF. But I definitely think you should do an AA episode for that's a fucked up. You should definitely do that. I think it sounds it. It sounds like everyone I know who's been through AA when they would like tell the stories, I would be like, that sounds like so shaming.
And so like behavior oriented and it sounds so like restrictive. And so I'm just like scarcity mindset and just like, it doesn't sound like human to some extent.
Ashley: No, I'm like, I'm like tripping out. I'm making like so many [00:53:00] wild connections right now. Oh my God. And especially
Katherine: because typically what leads to addiction is trauma and it didn't sound like there was any depth into addressing the
Ashley: trauma.
Well, this is fun. And you, when you do your steps, one of the steps is to. Admit all of the ways that you've wronged everybody in your life. And I said, what about my mother who abused me? And they said, well, you have to find your part in that, which is that as a 30 something year old woman, you're still holding on to that resentment.
Whoa,
Katherine: that's straight out of Christianity. Straight.
Ashley: Also every night you're supposed to write an inventory, which is like all the ways that you had fucked up that day. That's like shame based. Yeah, if, if you get out, if you're out of the program, when you come back in, you have to take a newcomer chip and be like, yeah, after 10 years of sobriety, I drank for one day and now I'm a newcomer and that [00:54:00] whole 10 years is gone and everybody's like, everybody's like, yay.
And you're like, okay, cool. Like I'm getting love bombed by the group. I'm glad to be here. This is the only way to stay sober because in AA, there's only one truth is the only way to stay sober.
Katherine: So AA becomes the new
Fallon: addiction. Hey, Oh my gosh. Yeah. We got to talk about this. Wow. Okay.
Katherine: This is a whole new episode, but yeah.
So in conclusion, Ashley, any final thoughts, Fallon, any
Fallon: final thoughts? No, this was really fun. We're glad to get back together. Well, I was, I think I speak for both of us. So glad to get back together with you. And it was really fun to see Ashley unravel all my expectations that she wouldn't know Christian
Ashley: lingo.
So, and to see Ashley. Fully realized that she was in a Christian cult for multiple. I mean, that doesn't make me
Fallon: happy, but yes, it was
Ashley: but
Katherine: it solves the mystery for me as I'm like hearing people's stories. I'm like, that sounds cool.
Ashley: [00:55:00] Yeah, but
Katherine: I can't say that because so many people like worship AA and found it so helpful.
Ashley: . I think I'm finding that I want to say what the fuck I want to say and say, I said what I said, but I will be honest as well and say.
I think at times it was really fucking helpful. I think at times I needed that. I think some people, legit, that is the only fucking way for them to stay sober, is with that level of accountability, and trying to like, get out of their narcissism by finding that there is something bigger than them and they're not the center of the universe.
So I do say it with the, I mean, Like I always say, cults are on a spectrum. They're not always super harmful and coercive. But, is that shit culty as fuck? Yeah. And, like I said, it was really helpful for a while. And then it became maladaptive, which is when I felt shamed. Because I smoked weed. [00:56:00] Because I got sunstroke and was like violently throwing up and I understand the medicinal properties of marijuana and then they were like, yeah, you went out and I was like, no, I didn't.
And I actually left because I wasn't going to let this fucking group of people tell me that I had that my sobriety was fucked. I was like, no. Actually, it's not. So, fuck you guys. I'm out. And now I've been sober for, if we're not going by AA time, about nine fucking years. I've had a couple drinks in between.
I think I went like one year, actually, probably drinking. That does not negate the other fucking eight. Yeah. Where I did not pick up a drink. So, you know, it's, I heard something really interesting. And I think that you were in a cold. depending on whether or not you Think or decide you were in a cult. I thought that was very interesting.
Like it's not really up to other people to tell you that you were in a cult because maybe you were and you had a great time. Like maybe that one fucking [00:57:00] Scientology or NXIVM class that you took at the very low level and you never went into the organization. Maybe that class helped you, you know, so.
Katherine: Exactly. And, and, and I think that that is the opposite of fundamentalism when you can kind of hold those things together and just be like, it was helpful. But the organization itself is harmful
Ashley: and yeah, because life's not black and white, right? Like there's a lot more
Katherine: gray. I can say the foundation of evangelicalism, I believe is problematic, but I'm not going to, but I can also say people I know go to church and have a good experience and they genuinely have a good experience and it helps them be a better person.
So right. Both of those things can be true at
Ashley: the same time. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, I think that's a great place to end. Me too. Thanks everyone for being here. Yeah, you guys, and
If you guys have not checked out Catherine's episode on our feed, please do follow us on That's So Fucked Up. We're on all the platforms where you listen to podcasts. We did a six episode [00:58:00] series on Christian fundamentalism. One with Catherine. It was awesome. So check that out and Catherine, thank you so much for having us.
Thank you
Katherine: for being here guys. This was so fun.
Ashley: Hell yeah.
Katherine: Christianity.
-
Shannon Payton (https://shannypantsshow.com/), known as Shanny Pants by many, is a content creator and podcaster living in Rocklin, California. Although Shannon has a successful career as a Realtor, she has equally enjoyed her hobby of sharing her humor through Instagram with friends and family. In 2020 her video about making school lunches went viral, it opened a whole new world for her. She now has many viral videos and hundreds of thousands of social media followers.
Her podcast, The ShannyPants Show is currently in its second season. In her interview style podcast, Shannon shares her struggles of growing up in a cult, battles through years of infertility that ended in a hysterectomy and finally her journey to parenthood through foster care and adoption.
She enjoys sharing the struggles of life in a humorous way as part of her self-prescribed therapy and through this, has connected with her fans. Her podcast topics include a wide range of subjects which in one way or another relate to something she has been through.
Shannon has been a guest on The Kelly Clarkson show and has appeared on local TV show GoodDay Sacramento multiple times. Shannon is currently writing a memoir and is looking forward to giving her followers a deeper look into her life. When Shannon is asked where she gets all of her ideas for her humorous videos she sarcastically states, âIâm married and have kids, thatâs all the inspiration I need for some crazy contentâ. IG: @therealshannypants @shannypantsshowpodcast
Uncertain is a podcast of Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If youâre enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus.
You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/support
To get in touch with us please email [email protected]
Follow on Instagram @uncertainpodcast
Transcript is unedited for typos and misspellings
[00:00:00] I'm Katherine Spearing, and this is Uncertain. Do you ever get to a point where everything is just too much and you just need to take a break? That is kind of how I've been feeling the past few weeks.
Around trauma recovery. And abuse dynamics and sometimes it just gets to be a lot and I just need to take a break. So I had to do that over the weekend a little bit. And this episode, I wanted to put this episode out because, uh, the guest today, Shani Payton is just a super funny human being and is comedian her content on social media is.
So funny and keeps me laughing all day long and I thought that this episode was going to be like this really funny episode because we recorded it. I think back in like December and I listened to it and I was like, Oh, it's not as funny as I thought it was going to be, but there is some laughter. Fear not.
[00:01:00] Shani Payton is a comedian and has hundreds of thousands of followers. So, so, so, so funny, but she has a darker origin story. She grew up in a church cult, and she has been on her own journey of recovery and healing, and humor plays a role in our healing process, and we do get to that at the end, but we also just talked about the dynamics of control and the impact that it has on us, it's just a really great conversation, and I really like Shani a lot.
I'm going to link to her website in the show notes so you can follow her on all the things. She also hosts the Shani Pants show, which is a podcast. I was recently on the Shani Pants show, I will link to that episode of my conversation with Shani Payton, also in the show notes.
Thanks so much for being here, and if you're having one of those weeks where you just need to take a break, then you know what? [00:02:00] You should. Take a break. Go for a little walk. Have a sip of water. And if you can take a break. for a couple days, sure, just do it. If you can. I highly recommend it. It's good to do that.
All of the abuse and trauma it'll still be here when you get back. Pretty sure about that. Alright, so here is my conversation with Shannie Payton of The Shannie Pants Show.
Katherine: Hello.
Shanny: Oh, it's so good to see you. Good to see you. I'm so
Katherine: excited. Me too. Talk about culty things. Talk about abuse things, but then talk about fun things too and ways that giggling and laughter and jokes help us on this amazing healing process. Where do you hail from right now?
Shanny: Northern California, right around the Sacramento [00:03:00] area.
Katherine: Yeah. I lived in LA for four
Shanny: years, so. Oh, did you? Okay. I'm familiar with the stomping grounds. Oh yeah. Just a quick, you know, nine hour little drive for me. Not
Katherine: bad at all. No big deal. No big deal. I know. I know every, every time I moved someplace, people would say, Oh, do you know so and so? Because they like live in the state and it's like, This is like a massive state.
Other than D. C. where people are like, Oh, my friend blah blah blah lives there. Like, D. C. is so big. No, I have not run into them in the grocery store. No. Well, whenever
Shanny: someone says, you know, whenever It seems like when people say, Oh, California. Oh, do you surf? And I'm like, no, no, I do not surf. Like,
Katherine: like, because
Shanny: it's like how the state is, how long it's like, I live more up in the mountains.
And, you know, versus the coast. And, and then even so there's. So many different [00:04:00] coasts as far as, you know, all the way down to the Bay Area. Yeah. So it's funny, but everyone that's like, Oh, do you surf? No, no, you would not want to see that all the time.
Katherine: Right? Yeah.
Shanny: Quick, quick little weekend trips
Katherine: every, every weekend.
Shanny: But yes, but I do love where we live. It's beautiful. And I, I. Yeah, I really love it. And I grew up here. I've never moved far from home, so I've always been in the area. Yep.
Katherine: Right. All right. Well, I would love to introduce you to folks by hearing your story. The group that you grew up in is very similar to the group that I grew up in with this just very fundamentalist dedication to interpretation of the Bible and I would love to hear what that was like for you growing up and process getting out questioning because you're [00:05:00] not, you're not in it now.
Right. Right. Right.
Shanny: Otherwise I would not be talking to you because you are
Katherine: of the world. I am. We could not communicate. No, no eye contact would be happening. So tell me, tell me a little bit about it. I know a lot of folks in our community are going to really
Shanny: yes, I, so I was born into this cult religious cult and up in Northern California. My parents were also born into it. So we had some generational, you know, fun things. We're just dragging around. And, you know, it started out as from as much as I can understand, talking to my grandparents and other older folks it started out as kind of like a, we're going to go not, not even nondenominational.
It was just like, we're going to do meetings in our home, basically. So I think it started out as a pretty innocent. Kind of fine thing like just Bible studies and in homes and then it's from what I understand. It sounds like in the [00:06:00] 70s late 70s to 80s The his son is now the current leader, but he took over And we'll call him RG.
He, and from that point on is kind of when it became more rule based, fear based and that's when kind of there started to be a lot more things that got put into place and people just kind of, I guess, followed along and went with it. And so in the mid, 80s, there was what we call the split of the 80s, where a large group of people were questioning some of the beliefs and rules and restrictions.
And there was a, we call it marking to be avoided, but like an excommunication. So there was a large group that were excommunicated from us in the 80s because they were questioning and you don't do that. And part of my family,
Katherine: like in a [00:07:00] group, or was it like, we call you in, into the office
Shanny: and it was basically, I mean, I was a kid at the time, but it basically is just public, you know, from the front, you're hearing, and we had a lot of different sex.
So we had like ours up here in Northern Cal, there was four in North, in California. And then we had like Texas, Virginia, Oklahoma, Canada. Mexico. I think that's all of them. So this message would go to everyone because we would get together. We call them camps where people from all different, what we call assemblies would like beat together and hang out.
And so everyone's getting the same announcement basically that these people are marked you are or not to associate with them. And it truly was like, yeah. Oh yeah. Like announcing their name. Oh yeah. Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Mark, you
Katherine: are
Shanny: an announcements today.
Katherine: It's very light. We [00:08:00] just
Shanny: have, you're not allowed to talk to your family again.
Oh my God. Yeah. So that happened back in the eighties and I was I was a young kid then and part of my family was marked my dad's sister and her family which she married my dad's best friend. So that was like really hard on my parents. Yes. And it sounds like they were kind of. You know, on the cusp of do we be a part of the marked group or not.
And of course we stayed. But it was really sad because all of a sudden, and you know, as a young child, I'm not allowed to hang out with my cousins anymore. And I was really good friends with the one that was really close to my age, and it was just really confusing and I remember like even as a child, like, Oh, it was awful and you're in like life wasn't confusing enough how we lived.
But I just remember like praying like, please help them get right with the Lord because obviously they've left the will of the Lord and, you know, [00:09:00] because that's what we are taught is they're wrong and they're sinning. And they're a part of the world now, so they're no longer a part of us. What did
Katherine: they, did you ever find out what they got marked
Shanny: for? You know, I don't know. It was really about like, it was like legalistic stuff. Like, even like, so we had to wear like skirts and the women. And the men had to wear pants. So we had to just like kind of rules like that. And I know some of it was around that kind of stuff. Just why do we do this? Like, let's dig in.
Why, why are we doing this? So it wasn't.
Katherine: If you can justify it and give me a logical reason, sure. But if you don't have one.
Shanny: Right. Go ahead and mark us, I guess, because that's what we're going to do, because we obviously don't, they didn't have a reason, you know, it, but that was the thing. You don't question, you just don't, you just follow along like we did for so many years.
But yeah, so it was just about, it was not about anything crazy, nothing [00:10:00] like nothing serious. And like, Nothing even biblical, I don't think, you know, it was more like the rule side of things. So, but that was really hard on my family. I know. And yeah. It was really sad, but that's, but kind of growing up, that's kind of like a little bit of the background of how this group started.
But growing up in it, it was, like I said, it was just a lot of rules, very fear based where like, I'd never went to, we, and we were, so we had no name. Our church group cult had no name. And that was because you wouldn't, if you follow a follower of God, you wouldn't. You wouldn't need a church name. The church is the, the body of people, right?
It's not a building. So we would meet in Grange Halls or people's houses and we would never take a name, which was really fun explaining to people at school as a kid when they're like, what church do you go to? And you're like I don't know. [00:11:00] Yeah. So we literally had a concerted
Katherine: effort to be different.
Shanny: Oh, for sure. Yeah. Oh,
Katherine: that's super confusing because you don't have an identify. No. Wow.
Shanny: It was, it was very interesting. So we did grow up. So we would go to meetings at Grange halls in our assembly here. There was, I'm guessing about like 100, 150 of us, maybe in this area. And our assembly, most people were homeschooled.
We did go to public school, me and my sisters. And there was a really tiny little public school right by a Grange Hall where we met. And so a couple of the other families went there as well. And it was awful going to school with cult people because they would call you out. Like my parents, we were always in trouble because my parents were a little bit more on the like.
Rebellious side, I would say, like my dad would wear shorts at home. They would let us wear pants at home. And [00:12:00] we were like constantly in trouble. It seems like but we did go to school with a couple of other families that went to our meetings as well. Were they reporting you? Yes, they would not only would they report us, but like when we were younger in like grammar school, they one of them was in my grade.
So it was a little school. So we all are together. And he would, like, we would be doing like a craft project, like making Santa magnets, because it's Christmas, we didn't celebrate any holidays. I probably should point that out. No holidays. Oh, yes. , he would like raise his hand.
And be like, teacher, teacher, teacher, Shannon and me cannot make the magnets. And I'm just like, Oh,
Katherine: here we go again. So pretty much don't
Shanny: celebrate Christmas. No, so we cannot make felt Santa magnets. Oh, yeah. So that was fun. And then like everything else in grammar school, I and I [00:13:00] was such an uncomfortable child.
I was so confused looking back. I know now that I was. I was very anxious and depressed my whole entire years growing up and at the time I just, you know, Oh, I'm shy or whatever. So, but we, so another thing in school though, that's really fun is because we didn't celebrate holidays whenever they were like singing songs or because you know how it is like, and maybe it was more that way back when we were in school too, but like you would, the school would sing Christmas carols and put on a little thing for the parents and all that.
So whenever they were practicing Christmas carols or any holiday, anything, we, all of the cool people, kids would go to the library and hang out and literally just sit there. Being bored. Just hanging out in the library while everyone else is having fun. And, and we had to do that during sex education as well.
Because we, of course, right,
Katherine: right, [00:14:00] right.
Shanny: Because, because we don't need to learn about our bodies. Like we are different. Yes,
Katherine: exactly. Oh my goodness. And that was awful. Just like, it's so isolating.
Shanny: Oh, so much. So
Katherine: much. Contributing to this, like. Set apartness nature that is characteristic of so many cults of like, we are better.
Yeah. Oh yeah. We're gonna do this like separatist thing to like show that we are better. Yep. And it's not life giving. It is not making your life better. It is simply for the sake of Being separate and, and yeah, and, and separating yourselves from
Shanny: the
Katherine: world. Everyone. Yes. Yes. The people who are not enlightened.
Shanny: Yeah, exactly. Yes. And it was, it was so separate. And like I was saying earlier too, there's no we didn't have a name and for us even. All churches were [00:15:00] bad. Like it wasn't like, Oh, cool. Every, you know, these people are believers, but they just don't meet with us. No, no, no. Like if they don't meet with us.
They're doing it wrong and they're not the right kind of believers. So that was hard to just because again at separation, like I remember one time some of the guys like my age when we were, I don't even know. Yeah. I guess we were teens cause they would have had to be driving. They went to this teeny tiny church that was like on the way to the meeting hall.
They just wanted to like see what the church was like a real church. And they like went in, sat on the back row. And well, someone found out and so they all got rebuked and they had to like, they have to stand up. Like anytime you get in trouble, you'd have to stand up front for going to a church just to
Katherine: visit.
You just be like, I wonder what a church
Shanny: is like. So yeah. So you can imagine all of the [00:16:00] things that Got rebuked from up front. If that got rebuked, it's always, we would call it like rebuke all we would laugh and be like, Oh, you got rebuked the day.
Katherine: Oh my goodness. And, and that's just, I mean I can imagine you were probably just so terrified, like,
Shanny: of
Katherine: like getting in trouble.
What's it going to be. And yep. And it sounds like your family wasn't quite like that, but the community itself was just right. Surveillancy and watching everything you did.
Shanny: Very much, very much. And that's where, and, you know, we had. I'm very thankful for our family like now we're like, good job dad way to be rebellious because we were raised, you know, people say like how did you turn out normal and I'm like, Thank you for calling me normal.
And also our family I feel like how we were raised in our home.[00:17:00] Did. allow us to be somewhat normal. And that's why maybe we're normal today. But we, like I said, we would could wear what we wanted at home. We would sneak movies like we, I remember watching Anna Green Gables because no one, we weren't allowed to watch any TV movies, nothing.
So we would do things like that, that. A majority of people would never, ever have done. We went to Disneyland. We'd get in trouble for it, but we would go. So there was some things, yeah, there were some things that we did that I think made us, allowed us to be a little bit more normal, but you still have that influence.
And then even when we were doing these normal things, you still have that fear of, well, we're having fun at Disneyland, but if they find out what's going to happen, so there's always that, like, even though you can fully
Katherine: enjoy because you're, you're having to hide, hide. And yeah, absolutely. [00:18:00] Yeah, I just, I'm really, really curious how Well, first of all, I like relate a lot with the story.
There are different flavors of it in my upbringing. We home church most of the time, and there wasn't like a, you can't go to church, but there was definitely. This belief that those people were not as solid of Christians as we were and weren't as on fire for God as we were. And we would go visit churches and no church was ever good enough.
And on the way home, we would have roast pastor and my father would just like shred the sermon apart. Like make sure we knew that what was taught there was. Not accurate and not biblical and watered down and whitewashed and that just like very like, oh, we watched films, but there were like so many films that were like off limits.
And [00:19:00] so I remember doing the sneaking thing like when I go out of town, I would go to the library and I would like check out all the movies. The more nudity, the better. And I was just like, just like. Get it all in and also just living with terror that they were going to find out. Oh yeah. Having books that I like hid under my mattress and read after I knew my parents were already in bed.
So they weren't going to be like making the rounds to like check in. And not just that fear of like, like what if and about stupid, stupid stuff. Right. Oh yeah, like it was so dumb that that was like a sign of character or your devotion to God like it just it was so dumb. And so I'm curious, you said that it was like the son of like a leader that eventually came to power and started implementing these rules.
Do you remember? Like [00:20:00] how he got people because it wasn't quite so stringent, like how he got people to do that. Was it like a slow accommodation? Do you remember? I,
Shanny: I don't remember because I was very young at the time. I was. Like born during that time. So I don't remember exactly. I'm sure it was a very slow progression for as many people as they did keep.
But like I said, in the eighties, there was that split of where, you know, people were questioning and that was when he had taken over. And so obviously there were enough people that wanted to stand up to him. And then it took, gosh, 30.
20 more years before another group finally decided this is BS and we're done. So so it was, I'm sure again, I don't really know, but it sounds like it was a slow progression where, and I think when it very first started, it was so long ago that society was different. You know, it was normal [00:21:00] for women to wear the dresses.
It was normal. You know, that was. A normal thing. And then as time moves on and society is changing, we had to stay basically. So it's like you're frozen. And, and then I think that's kind of, I mean, I'm imagining that's what happened is it kind of, Oh, well, it's a rule now. So, and so much of around it. And especially when I think about the men that led overall and still are I think it's a power trip, you know, and they want that control.
They want that power. And they're so prideful that they cannot say, let's, let's take a look at that. I don't know. Yeah, you're right. Let's question it. They're so prideful. And it's so sad because you think, well, gosh, that was 50 years ago. Can we not take a look at that and maybe dissect it a little and decide should we still believe that?
But they're so afraid to be wrong, I think. And I know that that's been a big learning thing for me since being out is realizing [00:22:00] how ingrained that is in me. Like So, I'm mortified of being wrong and, and again, I look back to my childhood. I would never speak up in class or, and it was because I was so embarrassed to be wrong.
And I think that was a huge, is a huge thing that I still deal with. And then also it taught the opposite, I think of what they wanted us to learn, but it taught us to be super good at hiding things. We were like, like you were saying, hiding stuff under your mattress. It was like, you knew. How to hide things.
And it was like, they forced you to be really good at it. And, and then not only were you hiding things physically, maybe, but emotionally you, all you did was stuff. You're feeling stuff, stuff, stuff, never revealing the true you. And so as an adult, you know, now you're trying to figure out like, who am I? And, you know, raising my kids different [00:23:00] and It's, but it's been hard.
It's crazy how ingrained that is. Like, it's just, you know, you sit under that. I was 31 when we got out. So 31 years of sitting in those metal chairs.
Katherine: Yeah. And the difference for you, as opposed to folks who join cults later in life. And, and this is my experience as well, is you're trying to rebuild a self.
When you never had a self to begin with, and you don't have this memory of baseline like this thing that I can return to, even though you experienced the trauma of being in that high control group, you're. Inevitably altered, possibly forever, you, you still have that thing to like, remember, like, I remember what it felt like to have desires and pursue them and to think well of myself and not think, you know, horrible thoughts about myself.
But if you never [00:24:00] knew that, it's hard. It's really hard to, like, recreate a sense of self
Shanny: if you just, yeah, right. Well, and, and even if you did have desires or things you wanted to pursue, it was wrong. So you would feel guilty about having that idea. Like I, women weren't allowed to go to college and I wanted to be a nurse so bad.
And, you know, and that's something I've, I never did. I never followed through with because, you know, by the time I got out, I had kids and, you know, life moves on. But I, you know, it's, it's one of those things that it's like, I felt guilty for wanting to do that. And I knew it wouldn't happen. Like, but
Katherine: so sad.
Yeah. And then, and you feel like Things were stolen from you and yeah, just yeah, and I just, I also just like kind of want to go back to you and mention like these men who like can't be wrong. And I feel like there's a difference between like those men who can't be wrong. And, and [00:25:00] fear of being wrong and like that.
Yes, you know that I experienced that too. This happened like a few months ago. I'm on an improv team and we had a show and I had a bad show. Like I was really tired. I had something really stressful and work happened like right before the show and it wasn't a great show and it just happened to be a show where some of my friends came to watch and it was the first time I had friends.
Watching and it wasn't my best show. So it was like this experience of like, wasn't my best show. This is the first time they're seeing it. They don't know that that wasn't the best thing that I could do. I went on this massive shame spiral for probably 48 hours. And it was really intense. And I knew in my head, this isn't that big of a deal.
Who cares? Have a bad show. Whatever. And it took me a while to unpack just kind of the threads of like, I just grew up in an environment where it was not safe to fail. [00:26:00] And like being wrong was dangerous. And I always felt that way, like, when I was in, like, church situations, and I would get in trouble for something, or get caught out for something, and I would get super defensive, and of course, it's perceived as arrogance that I got defensive, when in reality, it was a trauma response, and I would hate fighting, or, or flighting.
Yep. Because I felt unsafe and I felt it couldn't, it couldn't, it wasn't just, oh, a mistake. Mistakes were dangerous in the world that I grew up in. And, and then there's the, the very arrogant people who actually can't be wrong. Right. They're actually, they're just, they're just human beings.
Shanny: Right.
They just think that they're above human beings and are better than everyone. Yeah. Yeah. No, I, I liked that you pointed out that difference because. It's very true. And I think, you know, thinking of like our group and my family in it, there it's, you were, you were afraid to be wrong. And [00:27:00] someone has asked, I forget who it was, was asking something about like the family dynamic and, and the, and the group dynamic.
And it's almost like it didn't even matter what your home life was like with what the group was pushing on you. Because It was such a strong, powerful, fear based thing that, because we had, I had a friend from high school that actually ended up joining our group, and And while she was in high school, so this poor girl by herself or with her family by herself.
Oh, wow. Yeah. She was having like some, some stuff going on at home and found the group and poor thing. What a disaster. And, and, you know, I know you probably talk about this all the time too, but there always is something or can be something that draws someone in. And like for her, it was that sense of community and the family and the love and dah, dah, dah, everything you see from the outside.
Right. That. Besides how we dressed that might be appealing. And and so [00:28:00] she started coming and then within, I mean, honestly, a couple of visits, it was, well, you need to start wearing skirts now and like almost immediately, but I just get so sad for people like that because it's like. You know, maybe home wasn't exactly great, but then you come to this other environment that you think is what you need.
And then you're just destroyed, like, yeah, so, so sad how many lives and I mean what they put the, we called ourselves young people, like when we were young teens but what they put the young people through is. Awful. Like the amount of, Oh, they just so fear and shame based like, Oh, but they bring you up front.
Like if you were caught for anything, basically bring you up front, rebuke you and you'd have to confess, which never were real, of course, because none of us really, we're sorry. And just, but yet also [00:29:00] if you had the right last name and you were in the right position. You would be spared from that. So like someone in one of a girl I grew up with, her dad was, you know, on the list of good people or whatever.
And she had an affair with a married man outside of our group. And it was pushed under the rug and I'm like, Oh my God. Like, and, and, and there was enough of us that knew about it, that it was so damaging. Like that whole concept of like, Oh, she gets away with it. And yet you're dragging everyone else up front and making them confess that they.
Made a mistake. Like, oh my gosh. So it was very hands at
Katherine: home. And yeah, exactly. Oh my goodness. Yeah, because the about like they they'll say this is about like character and, you know, being a godly person, but really it was about elitism [00:30:00] and controlling people which is I mean, that is what those rules are for.
They sell it to you as if it's for your good, but it's not. It's really just to keep you in line and to keep you subservient. Woof!
Shanny: Goodness. Yeah, they did, they did, they did real good at that.
Katherine: Real good. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that, like, that happens with a lot of folks who have families. Of origin that just aren't safe and they go to the church, they migrate to the church as like that surrogate family and, and then if they experienced that abuse and that control within that second family, it causes so much damage because most of the time you're internalizing that and thinking it's your fault.
Like, right. This didn't work out because of something wrong with me. It didn't work in my family and it didn't work in the second family. And it's just very very shame based and, and [00:31:00] just, and can cause so much damage. And I'm actually kind of sort of researching that a little bit of the difference between Like someone who experiences abuse when they're an adult in a religious context versus someone who experiences it in a religious context when they came from a family that wasn't stable and wasn't safe.
And like the impact that that has on their faith experience. Yeah. When they didn't have any foundation versus having a foundation and, and what are the, what are the chances? Like, like what, and it's kind of just like abuse in general, if you, except like if you experience abuse as a child, you're more likely to experience it statistically as you get older.
And like, what foundation does a family play? In, in creating someone who retains their faith after abuse versus not anyway,
Shanny: [00:32:00] yeah, and it's so interesting and I think I just did an interview actually the other day with someone who's probably about 10 years older than me from, from my cult and he joined.
And so. He just recently had written a book and so I'm like, I want to have you on the podcast, but I never really knew his story. You know, he was older than me that I'd never, you know, I was a kid or whatever. So it was really interesting, but that's how it was for him. You know, he was incarcerated at 17, had a really rough, you know, life, met someone from this group.
And then what happened is he met a girl who, you know, he falls in love with or whatever. And that's what made him stay. And so then, you know, 30 years later, three kids, adult kids later, he's Getting his family out of the cult, you know, so it's like, and I think so many like that is one of the reasons. And for us, you, you married within your group.
It wasn't like you [00:33:00] went outside of it to get married. And there were a few that came in and it was, I feel so bad for them. And it was so hard.
Katherine: The same for the men to like, they were not allowed to marry outside either.
Shanny: Yeah, they would marry within. Yeah. Yeah. And. But like, so I was mentioning earlier, we would have these like big camps and so we didn't celebrate holidays.
So anytime there was a holiday, we had to be together as a group. So you know, they don't want you to be tempted to like, you know, go look at Christmas lights or anything. So we would have these big camps and the, one of the biggest ones was here in California central California. So we would all drive down there.
Or fly or whatever, get there. And there'd be like, you know, over a thousand people just having meetings all day, basically. It was awful, awful. I hated it. And, but that's where you would kind of. Look for your mate, you know, because it was like, and you, and [00:34:00] you would only see these people maybe a couple times a year.
So you're going to lock it down.
Katherine: Huh. Huh. Before someone else does.
Shanny: Exactly. So it was always like a competition. Like, you know, you're out there on your roller skates skating around and you're like, ah, he's mine. But, but that's where, at 12 years old, I knew who I was gonna marry. And you, and you did, just because it was like, oh, I like him, he likes me, we connect.
And we didn't date, you didn't court, you just liked them. So, yeah, and so I got married at 19. I really wanted to be out of high school before I got married, so I was kind of old. At 19, but yeah, but I really want to get
Katherine: married before they graduated high school. Oh yeah, yeah,
Shanny: like I was engaging
Katherine: high school or were they told, you don't need
Shanny: to finish.
Well, a lot were homeschooled, so I don't, they probably just finished early would be my guess, probably but I feel like, yeah, I don't really know. I know [00:35:00] all the. Yeah. The ones that went to public, I think all finished, but but yeah, so that was fun. So then, yeah, I married young and it was, it was real interesting, real interesting, but yeah.
Katherine: What was the role that like Oh, I want to get into the humor stuff. Like we haven't Oh but was, was there at like, Some kind of camaraderie, simply because you both believed the same things when you got married, or was it like way more complex than they ever gave you credit for?
Shanny: Like why we got married?
Katherine: Well, I was just kind of thinking about the dynamics after you got married.
Shanny: Like, oh, it was, or was it just, Oh no, it was awful. Total disaster. Total disaster. You know, cause you, you live with your parents until the night you're married. It's the first night you ever are away from home. So in the preparation, like even, you know, like churches will do like premarital counseling or you know, something to kind of prepare you if it's like, you [00:36:00] know, like the purity culture and all that.
Like, I feel like they still try to prepare you for marriage. We had nothing, nothing. We would meet with the leader a couple of weeks before you got married. They take you to dinner, him and his wife. Give you this little pamphlet that basically, you know, is like, well, as long as the wife submits to the husband, everything goes great.
And so like, that's your, that's, that's your sex education right there. Luckily, my parents were way better and did like talk to us, but not a ton. And it was always super awkward. So like me with my kids, I'm like, we talk about everything. Yeah. But, and then they, he would recommend, and this is no joke.
That to get a thing of Vaseline.
Which is not creepy at all, coming from this old, crusty, nasty person. And did you know why?
Katherine: Were you like, why? Yeah, yeah, I, I did, yes. Okay. But,
Shanny: but it's like, that's it. Like, [00:37:00] for, I guarantee you, a majority of people that got this talk did not know why.
Katherine: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. . Mm-Hmm. It's
Shanny: just like, so would I, why would no.
Right. Like oh, that seems weird. Mm-Hmm. .
Katherine: For my, I know, I know a lot of people from the community that I grew up in knew nothing about anything like that and had. dry sex dry course, you're supposed to have lube. I'm like, so sad. Like, I'm like, so, so, so, so sad that that was their first experience. You know, just like, Oh, yeah.
Yes. But that is really creepy, too. Oh,
Shanny: so creepy. So creepy. But yeah, and even as you know, aside from the sex part of it, No, no knowledge of living with another person, even, you know, like you've never lived with a roommate and learned how to share, you know, nothing, all the little things. Yes. So it was hell.
It was honestly like, and I, we're still married [00:38:00] which is amazing, but it has not been easy. Yeah. And it has been like, we've had to work really hard to stay married. And. And so many have been divorced that have gotten out, you know, that I grew up with and I don't blame them. Like, I'm like you shouldn't have ever been married.
Yeah. So, I mean, none of us should have. So yeah. So it's been. Extremely hard. So no, because we were brought up the same way, grown up, did not, did not, we did not, yeah, it did not help here. It was awful. No community, like we did not know how to communicate. And again, you know, when you're an individual person and we're talking kids, we were married as kids, you're, you're already internalizing everything.
And so To all of a sudden start sharing things with someone you didn't that's not a
Katherine: natural thing to do They wanted you to have like an intimate relationship with your partner or they did. Well,
Shanny: I mean, I don't think they cared They didn't really care. I don't think [00:39:00] but like I think as a human you want to I mean, I definitely knew like This isn't right.
Like I want more. I thought, well, you just don't even know. You don't know what marriage is going to be like. I had no expectations really, because I didn't, I didn't know. So it was rough and it's been 23 years now, but we made it this far.
Katherine: Okay. What do you think? What do you think kept you like preserved?
Shanny: Things. Well, for God, I don't know. Were you attracted
Katherine: to
Shanny: your spouse? Yes. Oh yeah. Oh, and he is adorable. When we were young, he was so cute. And I mean, he's very handsome. He's yeah. And you know what? Honestly, he's the best one. Like you actually know, we really liked each other and he we've always, and this is, I think, honestly, what has kept us together is we've always been really good friends.
And so like, There was a time in our marriage where it was [00:40:00] just like, okay, maybe, maybe friends is what we're meant to be. Maybe that's it. But we've always been such good friends. And then, we went through so many other things after we were married. Like, we did like, went through like, three years of infertility treatment.
And then we ended up adopting our kids. And those were very traumatic experiences, both of them. And, so, I think Because we had so much other trauma happening, we kind of clung to each other because of that, but I would say it never was like our marriage was awesome during that. It wasn't like, Oh, I feel so supported.
It was like, when I look back, like on the years of infertility, I felt very alone, very alone, even from him, because we didn't know. Like that was years into being married. We still did not know how to really love each other, you know? So I think it's only been probably the last. And it's been four or five years that we really finally [00:41:00] put in the work and made some new commitments to each other and decided, okay, it's either we're done or we need to make some changes.
So, and we have and we, we're happier now than we've ever, ever been. So that's great. And I'm so thankful for it. And he's such a good dad. And so. Yeah, now, now everything's great, but it took us, you know, almost 20 years to get there.
Katherine: Yeah, yeah. Thank you for sharing that because I know it's a vulnerable thing to talk about.
Yeah. I feel like I'm encountering more and more stories like that where it ends or there's this really difficult period where they're like assessing like. Yeah, yeah. It's going to work right in your conditioned marriage is what you're going to do. And then you do really young and you have kids really young.
So then you're like really locked in and, and a lot of your choices get taken away. And so having to [00:42:00] like, Make those choices once you're already in it it's really excruciating. So thank you very much for, for sharing. And then as we have a little bit of time left, I really want to talk about by it was so fast and I was so enthralled and kept asking questions.
Yeah, I want to know the role that humor played in your journey and continues to play and your healing journey, recovery journey, your escape journey. Did it play a role in your escape journey?
Shanny: So not so much. But I've always been like my mom's a real funny person. So like when we would do I'm going to try to keep this fast, but when we would do like camps and stuff, we would put on skits.
We always got in trouble because we pushed the envelope, you know, like we always did, but we were, we were like kind of the funny ones, but it was always still so fear based. Cause I remember you'd be so nervous up there knowing what you're going to do is hilarious. And then no, you're going to get talked to afterwards because you went too far.
But so we were always kind of the funny ones. And [00:43:00] Like me and my mom and there was a little group of us, but then when it, when it was time to get out, basically what happened then it was not humor, it was a group of like pretty much our age people and then a lot of our parents started questioning thing like back in the 80s and we pushed harder.
And so. Basically, the cult broke apart, a majority left, they're still, they're still continuing on a little bit everywhere, but a majority of the cult broke apart and we slowly just kind of, everyone went their own ways, kind of. Yeah. So, it was more of a. Just disintegration of it than anything else. Luckily my whole family is out.
My husband, his parents are still in, so that's a little weird. But, but yeah, and it's still causing so much damage. Like it's absolutely disgusting. So hard to
Katherine: watch. It's
Shanny: awful. It's awful. But after that, after getting out very confusing, you know, for us, all churches were bad. [00:44:00] So we really didn't know what to do.
You know, you're kind of just out on your own for the first time as an adult, but not really, because we were so like stunted socially and emotionally. So it was hard. It was a long journey. And it's been 11, 12 years now. And so it's been a long journey. And like I said, we really have just dug in the last like four years as far as doing some real healing.
Yeah. On ourselves and on our marriage, but humor, you know, I've always been kind of this funny ish person and I really started, it was during COVID really when I started doing Tik TOK, Instagram, these like little videos and stuff, and I started feeling a little bit more confident and a little more free with doing it.
And I had always felt even a little bit uncomfortable. What's the word? I don't know, even for my husband to see because again, we, you know, we went, but we had just been through this like big, huge, like, we're going to make some changes. And so it kind of gave me some confidence, like, [00:45:00] Oh, he doesn't really care.
Like even if he doesn't think it's funny, he doesn't care. So it gave me that boost to start doing that. And as I was. And I realized doing these videos and connecting with people online, I realized how much, how healing it was for me and, and it, you know, and I really, at first, didn't think of it that way.
It was just like, yeah, let's do this. It has been the, like, such a huge part of my healing at this point, just realizing, like, yeah, we've dealt with a lot of shit over the years, like, a lot, but it doesn't mean we have to live the rest of our lives, you know, depressed and sad, and I deal with a lot of A lot of a depression a lot, but, but I, this, the humor drags me out of it, you know, and it's like having other people kind of validate like, Oh, you're funny.
It's not like I, in a, like, Oh, I need to be validated kind of way, but it [00:46:00] just, it prompted me to continue. And You know, and now I love it. It's what I, and then I just, you know, it brought me to connect with people like you. I mean, I never would have been connected with so many of people I call friends now if it weren't for that.
And it really connected me to like so many others in cults and from high control groups. And I've created these like amazing relationships and. Support and people like you that I can listen to and that help with the healing and the growth part of this journey, because it sucks, but the humor we, we have to laugh,
Katherine: we have to laugh.
Shanny: Yeah. I just can't even imagine not. Because it would not be good.
Katherine: Yeah. And I love that you highlighted the connection that the humor provides, because I think the humor is great no matter what, but when you're laughing with someone, that like connection and that intimacy that is created when you're laughing [00:47:00] together, like that is so special.
And I think, I don't know if this was your experience, but I, I just remember times laughing. Afterwards, after like leaving an abusive church now like five years ago, I guess and like laughing and having this belly laugh and then just being surprised. That I was able to laugh and like, Oh, I haven't done that in a really, really, really long time.
Like, I didn't really remember that I could do that, could access that. And it's so, it's so freeing in and of itself and so healing to be able to access that. And. And I, I, I also think like, I don't know if this was your experience growing up, but we, we were so conditioned to be working on ourselves. Was that part of your upbringing?
Like be better, be a better [00:48:00] person. Like really? I don't, I think it was more, just listen, just listen to me, please just listen and do whatever
Shanny: they wanted you to be a good Christian, you know, like you need to be A good example in the world. You should always be an example for anyone in the world that sees you.
So, I mean, I guess a little bit. Yes.
Katherine: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think that that can like translate to trauma recovery of like, Oh, I need to always be healing. And I need to always be doing these things that will help me heal. And we need to take a
Shanny: break. Yes. Thank you for saying
Katherine: working on ourselves. Have a good time.
Shanny: Thank you. Yes. And it's so true. And like, even part of that is the whole, like, goes back to the perfectionist part and being afraid to do anything wrong and, you know, being defensive and all of that. You're right. It's like, sometimes I, I want to be so good at healing, you know, I'll even have therapy sessions where I'm just like, Oh, [00:49:00] no, everything's great.
How are you? You know,
Katherine: she's like, nope, this is your turn. And I'm like, great, that was your day. You got nothing today. Like,
Shanny: cause I just want to be a good therapy goer, you know?
Katherine: I just want to be good at it. I want to be her favorite client.
Shanny: I do. I want to be teacher's pet. Oh my gosh. Yeah. No, no, no damage done here at
Katherine: all.
I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. Well, I'm really glad that we got to laugh together too. I know. Chatting. It has been, it's been really fun. And I'm, I'm really glad that we met. Me too. In person.
Shanny: I know. We're gonna do it again.
Katherine: Together. So it was real, like it
Shanny: really happened. It really did. I'm Yeah, that was amazing to meet you and so many others.
I like, I just treasure that whole weekend. I was just like, Oh my gosh. It was so good.
Katherine: It was so [00:50:00] good. It was such a great weekend. It's like, I still like, even now, got a little ball of sunshine in my, in my heart at the moment. But, and for folks who don't know what we were talking about. Yeah, sorry. The fact that Tears of Eden had a retreat con.
I got out, had a story jam. We kind of meshed them on the same weekend in St. Louis. That's where I met Shani in person. Yes. And we have been the best of friends ever since.
Shanny: And forever more. Yeah. Forever more. As long as I'm the favorite. You know, I
Katherine: have to be the best. I have to be the best. Yes.
We'll sign a contract later. Okay. Perfect. Oh, I love it. Goodness. All right. Well, I'm gonna end this interview. All right. Thank you so much.
Uncertain is produced, recorded, edited, and hosted by me, Katherine Spearing. Intro music is from the band Green Ashes.
I hope you've enjoyed this podcast. And if you have, [00:51:00] please take a moment to like subscribe and leave a review. Thank you so much for listening and I will see you next time.
-
Marie Griffith, PhD, John C. Danforth Distinguished Professor in the Humanities at Washington University in St. Louis. She served for 12 years (2011-2023) as the director of the John C. Danforth Center on Religion and Politics and the editor of the Centerâs journal, Religion & Politics. Her research focuses on American Christianity, including the changing profile of American evangelicals and ongoing conflicts over gender, sexuality, and marriage. Author of several books, including Moral Combat: How Sex Divided America and Fractured American Politics, the book discussed in this episode.
Uncertain is a podcast of Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If youâre enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus.
You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/support
To get in touch with us please email [email protected]
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Transcript is unedited for typos or misspellings
[00:00:00] I'm Katherine Spearing, and this is Uncertain. Hello. How are you? How are you hanging in there? I hope you're doing okay. I'm doing semi okay. It's been a lot inundation with this very real, very damaging type of abuse. One thing that you may or may not know is folks who have experienced spiritual abuse and folks who have experienced sexual abuse.
They're very similar to each other. Spiritual abuse and sexual abuse are very, very similar. The impact is very, very similar because it is so, so vulnerable. You are so vulnerable when this happens and it violates our intimacy and it violates our very souls in a way that maybe other abuse doesn't. So if you are traumatized.
By the abuse that you experienced in a church [00:01:00] or a high control environment or religious environments in your family. There's a reason for that. It makes a lot of sense. It's very, very serious trauma. So one of the things that we discussed in this episode is how the folks who. experience sexual abuse when they go to the religious institution where they experience that abuse and say, Hey, help me, this happened, this was awful, please help me.
When they get dismissed or falsely accused or sidelined or silenced, that that is sometimes worse than the sexual abuse that they experienced in that institution. This episode is with Marie Griffith. She is the author of Moral Combat, How Sex Divided America and Fractured American Politics. It's an intense book.
A lot of research went into this book. She's also a scholar [00:02:00] and a professor of religion at Washington University. And one of the things we will also discuss in this episode is how she literally taught a class on abuse in the church in a secular university. What? Crazy, crazy, crazy. Great conversation, lots of mind blowing moments about the connection between sex and sexual abuse and the rampant abuse that is happening in the evangelical church right now.
Enjoy, or don't enjoy, but take it in for sure. And as always, take care of yourself, get some rest, give yourself some time after this episode to go for a walk, take a sip of water, breathe. You're okay, wherever you are, you are okay, take a deep breath, you are safe, you are here, you are now, you are present, you're going to be okay.[00:03:00]
Here is my interview with Marie Griffith.
Katherine: Hi, Catherine. Oh, how are you? How are you? And I have your big book here. This was a lot of work. She took this.
Marie: And that was like I don't even want to tell you how many years. I mean, it was really sort of 15 years. I did other things as I was doing that,
Katherine: but yeah. Yeah, just like the amount of research that went into just like one chapter I was like, this was a very large endeavor. But how are you this morning? How are you doing? How is your writing? Is it like a writing sabbatical? Is that kind of what this season is called?
Marie: Yeah, I'm on, I'm on research leave. You know, it's just a standard leave that scholars get every few years. So but yeah, it's focused on working on this book about sexual clergy, sexual
Katherine: abuse. Oh, my gosh. Did I know that? Did you tell me about that? I don't know if I knew from
Marie: that [00:04:00] I had taught that course on the abuse crisis in modern Christianity.
And so the reason I taught the course was because I started doing research on clergy sexual abuse in both the U. S. Catholic Church And evangelical groups, particularly the Southern Baptist Convention, although not only
Katherine: the Southern. Okay. I don't know if I knew that the book itself was about clergy sexual abuse.
So I definitely want to hear so much about that. Really excited to talk to you. I'm just like, as I'm like reading this book, I'm like, okay. We just need to be friends because I like everything that you research and everything that you're, I'm like, it's all like stuff that I'm like thinking about constantly.
And then just like even reading your book. And then when Megan told me that she literally had a class on like abuse that is happening in the church, I was like. Wait, who, like, led this? Whose idea was it to have this class? Like, tell me, tell me so much more. And so that's why I was, like, very [00:05:00] interested to talk to you.
And so I would just love to hear very just to start how you got into doing what you're doing and how this became important to you.
Marie: Sure, sure. Yeah. And thank you so much. I really love your podcast and admire the work that you do too, Catherine. So thank you. Well, I am from Chattanooga, Tennessee originally.
I was raised Southern Baptist. I grew up in the 1970s and 1980s. So as you may know, that was a time of just tremendous change in the culture, but also for Southern Baptists in particular, and within evangelical Protestantism more generally. The church I grew up in was a really, I thought of it as just a very kind of, you know, ordinary.
Church, it was 1st Baptist Church Chattanooga, you know, the kind of flagship Southern Baptist Church of the city. But the, the kind of tensions in the Southern Baptist Convention. Between, [00:06:00] you know, for shorthand, let's say the fundamentalist and the moderates, because that's, you know, what they called each other, at least at the time was really strong.
And my mother was the pastor's secretary over a number of years, and she cared deeply about these issues. My dad was the deacon chair for a number of years. So this was dinner table conversation. What was happening within the denomination and. My parents were both moderates. And so I kind of heard that side of it.
And it was really painful. A lot of the pastors that I had that worked at our church felt very betrayed by things that happened, convention politics and all of that. And when I left for college, I thought I left it all behind. I mean, it was really painful enough that I just turned my back on a lot of that.
But I found myself studying religion and really sort of wondering how all of that came to be. So in some ways, I mean, I think that has, explains a lot about my career, why I became a [00:07:00] scholar of American religion. I've focused on evangelicals. I focused on women. I focused on debates over women's roles, sexuality, and sex.
And now clergy sexual abuse. So it really is. There's a personal story behind that, as I think it is for so many scholars.
Katherine: Absolutely. And then have you been able to trace? So you're working on a book right now about clergy sexual abuse. And then your book that I was reading before we interviewed.
Moral combat. The subtitle is how sex divided American Christians and fractured American politics. Have you been able to trace? The link from this divide to clergy sexual abuse, is that pretty, a pretty clear link for
you?
Marie: I think so. And, you know, I, critics may argue with me, and they have every right to argue with me, but what I see from the sources, the [00:08:00] long historical sources that I've looked at over many archives that really begin in the really the late 19th century, but certainly by the 1920s and the birth control movement has been a real power struggle within American Christianity, Catholicism as well as, as, as Protestantism, I should say over leadership, over theology, and maybe more than anything else over the appropriate role of women and, and how to think about gender, how God created men and women.
and what their appropriate roles are supposed to be. I think we can see that debate starting with The birth control movement, really going back before that, but my book started with the birth control movement, moving through debates over literary censorship sex education in the public schools, homosexuality, same sex rights, abortion, reproductive rights, sort of all the way through.
And so, you know, that's, that's an [00:09:00] oversimplification to some degree, but I do think that those wars over sex. over gender, over, over women and, and women's roles in the public sphere and in the family explain an awful lot of our conflicts culture wars conflicts as they are. And, and I do think that's what's led us to the current moment and the, the real fervor over clergy sexual abuse.
Katherine: Yeah, and just all of it packaged together when you, and when you put sex sexual abuse itself, and you, and you realize that sexual abuse itself is really not about sex, it is about power, and you, and you see the power dynamic happening in these debates, and like, it's about who's going to get it. To be in charge, basically and, and then you add that in with this dynamic of sexual abuse happening and like less about just [00:10:00] urges that need to be fulfilled, but more about like who gets to be in charge and who gets to have a say and who gets to decide.
It makes so much more sense through that lens than just like. Sex addiction which is what it sometimes gets boiled down to, but it's, but that's, it's way more than that one. It's something this rampant. And so I see the connection. And it's, it's, it's pretty, it's pretty clear to me. But I would love to hear So you taught a class and what was the class called?
Can you confirm the name of
Marie: that? Sure. Yeah. The class was called the abuse crisis in modern Christianity.
Katherine: Okay. And what led you to teaching that class? And then what were, what were the, the, what was the process of getting that class to
Marie: be taught? Yeah, yeah, no, and it's maybe my favorite class I've ever taught, so I just want to say that at the outset, which sounds strange [00:11:00] because it was also the most painful class I've ever taught, the most difficult class I've ever taught.
You know, you all, this sort of Me Too, Church Too movement that's been so extraordinarily important over the last, seven or eight, 10 years, again, going longer than that, even, but really these this past decade. I have so many undergraduate students who have come to me with stories of sexual assault or sexual abuse, and I realize it's something that college students are grappling with.
All the time. But there are, at least in the institutions where I've taught, there are almost no classes, you know, that address that it's it's sort of we're expecting our student life personnel and our R. A. S. And people who aren't even trained in some cases to kind of be the ones to manage. sex on campus or the sexual lives of our students.
And so, and as I was doing the research on clergy sexual [00:12:00] abuse and just realizing how rampant some of this has long been and still is, it felt like something that I thought students would take a real interest in. So I taught the course, I put it on the books for fall of 2022. I limited it at first to 15 students and I immediately, when registration opened, it immediately filled up and I had.
double that number of students on the wait list. And so I wound up with about
30 students that, that were there off all undergrad, except for one graduate student. And that was, that was Megan.
Katherine: And then and so you didn't have any trouble like hot, like saying, Hey, I want to offer this class. Was that something that you did you have any hurdles with the institution offering the class?
Marie: Well, that's that's a very good question. You're the first person to ask me that. As it happened, I was at the time the director of the Danforth Center on Religion and Politics, which is our unit. And [00:13:00] so I was able to just offer the class and it really didn't go through any kind of
Katherine: formal approach.
I could do whatever I want.
Marie: if I teach the course again, which I definitely plan on doing, it's possible that I would get some pushback. But the course really it was, it got very high course evaluations. I think the students were saying, these are conversations we all need to be having, and we're so thankful to be having it.
So I think I would be able to make the argument that this is an important course
Katherine: to keep on the books. Absolutely. And then you had, I know that Megan had mentioned I think like a former nun and like a former prosecutor that you had in. Was it more of a like a, a workshop style, lecture style, or was it more like you teaching and then you would occasionally have people come in?
Marie: Yeah. Well, the course met twice a week for an hour and 20 minutes, and I did very little lecturing. I mean, I would set out the context, you know, for a short period [00:14:00] at the beginning. But as you say, I brought in a lot of experts. I brought in lawyer, a lawyer who has prosecuted these cases and worked a lot with sexual abuse survivors.
I brought in Catholic survivors. I brought in a Catholic survivor who is now working for the Catholic church on prevention programs. You know, and has very much considers himself a devout Catholic still archivist, just a whole range of different types of people. We talked to journalists. I just wanted them to really see Things from a wide range of perspectives.
I will say that when I started the course, most of my research until then had focused on the Catholic Church. So it was maybe overly focused on Catholicism. And I wish I had had time to do more. with evangelicals, with Mormons their orthodox Jewish cases and coverups of sexual abuse. Muslim communities in [00:15:00] the U.
S. have grappled with this. So, you know, it's almost an overwhelming amount of material and WashU is a very multicultural, multi religious university. So, you know, I think covering these power dynamics, as you say, this is not just about sex, it's really about power and gender. Covering these across different religious traditions, I think is a really important,
Katherine: you know, thing to do.
Absolutely. And I still think that the Catholic church is the most well known. I was at a, I was at a class. Sunday night and I had your book with me to just like read while when there was like not stuff going on or while I was like waiting for people and and somebody was like, Oh, what's, what's that book about?
And so I like, I talked a little bit about the book and then said, I was interviewing someone who taught a class and abuse in the church. And they were like, Oh, like the Catholic church. And I was like, well, I was like actually like I focus on like the evangelical church. And the person that I was talking to you was actually someone who like attends.
Church [00:16:00] and and so it was almost like they just like had no idea that that, but that was like happening within the actual like regular everyday evangelical churches, I think a lot of evangelicals will still try to like, think, oh, that's a Catholic church problem and that happened over there in the Catholic Church, when it is.
very rampant in the evangelical church across every denomination. Like I haven't, I have not met or encountered the denomination yet. That was like, Oh no, we're good. We don't have that. That doesn't, that doesn't happen. And so I'm really, really grateful that you were teaching that class and just like thinking of the students that got to be in there and be a part of it.
And I got to have that conversation. I'm just like. Woo, would I, would I love, you know, I went to seminary and I'm like for grad school and I'm like, would I have loved to have a class like that in seminary? Yes, but they're not going to have that kind of class in seminary. Like critiquing the church that they're like creating ministers for.
[00:17:00] And, and someone asked me that the other day of like, did you ever have a class on like abuse in the church? And did anyone ever talk about like clergy abuse or spiritual abuse or anything in seminary? I was like, no. It was like it did not exist. It was like that didn't happen at all.
Marie: Well, I think, I think you're absolutely right.
I am hopeful. I feel like in a lot of the conversations that I'm having now, and I, you know, I'm doing interviews with survivors, but also with. Pastors with people working for the church, developing curricula and training programs, you know, for pastors in seminary. I mean, I actually feel some hope that there's so much energy around bringing some of that knowledge into the seminary classroom requiring.
No, in some way, either at the local church level or at seminary. Now it's difficult because as you know, church autonomy is a hugely important principle for groups like Baptists [00:18:00] and other, a lot of other evangelical groups. And so requiring a church. To have a training or requiring certain courses, even in seminary is it's it's hard.
And I think a lot of these denominations right now are debating this issue. But still, I think people realize more and more. I mean, the Southern Davis Convention has had Terrible PR over the last several years around its own cover ups of sexual abuse. It's starting to look as bad as the Catholic Church's cover up, right?
And so I think Southern Baptist leaders I've talked to, they know they've got to do something. And not just for optics, they've really got to do something, you know big to, to bring knowledge to this issue. So I am hopeful that some of that, what you didn't have in seminary You know, the next generation is going to have some version of
Katherine: it, at least.
Absolutely. Yeah. Cause I just, I mean, you can't ignore it at this point. It's, it's everywhere. It is everywhere. What was the response? [00:19:00] So you said that you got a really good response from your students in terms of just like evaluations at the end. What was some of like the personal response of students within the class?
Marie: Yeah, and I want to say, you know, I gave a lot of trigger warnings at the outset. In the course description, I said, if this is a personal issue for you, Really think hard before you take this class, but come talk to me and I can help you find resources if you want to find resources, but I warned people we're going to read graphic, you know, accounts of sexual abuse.
It's hard, even for those of us who are not survivors and I do not consider myself a survivor. It's still it's grueling. It's wrenching it. Keeps you up at night when you read the stuff. So I, I really warned students and I warned them on the first day of class and, and all of that nonetheless, you know, kind of midway through, I knew that I had three or four students who were struggling they [00:20:00] were not getting their work in, you know, I reached out to them and they admitted to me, like this was bringing stuff up for them.
So I found myself just saying, don't worry about deadlines. Like take care of yourself, you know, and I told students in class if you need to take a break when we're in class, you know, I've never said this in any other class, but I'm going to tell you now you can walk out and walk around and get a drink of water and come back when you can.
And I'm not going to penalize you for that. I, you know, your mental health. is most important here and come talk to me. So students expressed appreciation, you know, in their evaluations that I had been flexible about that as I think anyone should be. One suggestion they did have for me about changing in the future is that my very first minister probably should have been a counselor, probably should have been someone who could come in and talk about trauma and not just the trauma that abuse survivors that we're reading about have suffered, but trauma that you might feel.
You know, absorbing [00:21:00] these stories. And so I take that to heart. And I think when I teach the class again, I teach the class again that I'm going to do that first and make sure that I've got better supports set up for students. If, if the, the sort of secondary trauma or tertiary trauma of reading and absorbing all of this gets
Katherine: to be too much.
Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, I can imagine that that would be, that would be. A great idea. To start it out that way. What were some of the people that you brought in, was there someone that like really stood out to you that a story that they told really resonated with you?
Marie: Yeah. Well, you know, they, they all stand out for me, but I'll just tell a couple of stories that I think the students found particularly meaningful. And I should say again, to go back to the personal and the student said, it wasn't just hard for them. You know, they loved the class.
They loved getting to think about this and process this. And I think they all. felt that this would really shape them going forward. Help [00:22:00] them be better friends and, and helpers of other people who've gone through trauma. You know, I think for a lot of us who aren't survivors, we don't realize how deep the trauma goes until you read and learn.
You've got to be educated about that. And I think these guests really helped do that. So I had guests two of the guests have been. Leaders in an organization called snap the survivors network of those abused by priests, which was founded primarily as a Catholic organization for Catholic survivors of clergy abuse, and they really went back into first kind of realizing that the abuse that they had experienced, trying to tell going to church authorities and having in their cases door slammed against them over and over again.
And that the trauma of that was worse than the original sexual abuse itself. Right. I'm sure you hear this over and over again. Very
Katherine: common. Very common. [00:23:00]
Marie: And I think for students to hear their story, but also, you know, they helped create SNAP. They've been public spokespeople across the country. They have helped so many people, so many victims.
And, you know, I think educated so many of us who are not victims. about this, that the students found them really inspiring. That was, that was really great. And David Clossie, who was the longtime leader of the SNAP, I'm just lucky because he lives here in St. Louis. And so he was able to visit our class in person along with Barb Doris who was also a SNAP leader, but he's a very emotional person still.
And he cries a lot and he'll tell you that. So he'll tell stories and he is, his emotions are right there. But he has also processed it. He has sort of come out on top of it and he's just a really inspiring figure. So students really loved hearing from him. Another standout, I'll just mention just one more.
We had a local lawyer and I won't mention her [00:24:00] name because she's really had a tough time. She has worked on a lot of different clergy, sexual abuse cases in the states of Illinois and Missouri primarily, and the laws here. are really, really tough. I would say they are stacked against victims in a lot of very concrete ways.
And she talked to us about that and really educated us about the law. And it got so bad for her that after 25, 30 years or so of practicing and working in that area, she just was burned out. She realized that she She could even be a suicide risk after all that she had to leave. And so she went and is now in a completely different field of law.
And the students were really, I think, moved by her. Some of my students want to go to law school. They want to work in that area, but they also recognized, you know, what she had to say about the toll that this can take on people. Who really try to find justice for survivors, because it's a lot [00:25:00] harder in some states than others, but it's hard everywhere.
Yeah.
Katherine: You know? Yeah. It's just, yeah. It really, the justice system doesn't work in favor of of someone coming forward and saying, this happened. Especially if there's, if there's not like, Capturing physical evidence of something like that is just not easy. If it if it even is possible. Yeah, that is, that is really really incredible.
Did you have anything else to say about the class and then I would love to just talk a little bit about book.
Marie: . No, I would just say that I would encourage if anybody is interested in thinking about teaching a class like this for undergrads, for grad students, seminary students, feel free to contact me, rmg567 at gmail.
com. And also I'll just say, I'm still, you know, interviewing survivors and people and would love to hear from folks, but I would just really encourage people to consider doing it. I think. Think it's a very, I, I'm so glad that I was able to do it, [00:26:00] and I will keep teaching that class until I can't teach anymore in retirement.
Katherine: Oh, I'm so glad. I'm really, really glad that there are dozens and dozens of more students who are going to get that class so I'm really glad to hear that. So switching to talking about this book, Moral Combat that I mentioned.
Earlier, the subtitle has sex divided American Christians and fractured American politics. And then I want to hear about a little more about the current book that you're working on as well. But my main question about this book is why sex? Why is sex such a big deal? What is it about sex that is making it this thing that divides people?
Marie: Catherine, that is the question. That is absolutely the question. That's really the question that sent me on the journey to write this. And I don't know if even now I have an answer to it. And really, I came to it thinking like, you know, sex is not a big [00:27:00] topic in the New Testament. It's really not compared to caring for the poor.
Caring for the poor, caring for people, helping the world, helping those in need, visiting the prisoner, feeding the hungry. Those are the themes, right? Those are the crucial, crucial themes. They're not the only themes, but that, to me, is so obviously the core that Jesus taught, that that should be the obsession.
And it's not. It's, it's not, it's not to say churches don't care about those things, of course they do. Catholic, Protestant, they all care about those things, but the thing that has seemed to be the obsession is around disciplining people for their sexual behavior. And that just struck me and, and it was true in my Southern Baptist upbringing.
I mean, that was just like, you know, a very strong theme in life generally. So I think I've always wondered. Why is something like [00:28:00] that so important? And you know, it's partly, I mean, our sexuality goes to the core of who we are, right? In every aspect of our lives. And if we wanna discipline people into being certain kinds of people, that's sort of a really key area.
You know, that, that the rules need to be sort of upheld and abided by. But to me, I honestly feel and I know a lot of folks would disagree with me on this, but I think a lot of Christian leaders have really gone way beyond anything, you know, biblical to create systems and structures and rules. That, that weren't really of, of great interest or concern to Jesus or to to any of these early teachers.
The early church fathers, you know, once Jesus is dead and Paul's dead and the kind of church is sort of coming into being in the early centuries, those leaders carried up, cared a lot about sex and disciplining the flesh and celibacy of [00:29:00] course, and, and thought the body was evil and thought sexuality was sort of this evil demonic force.
That's kind of where a lot of this influence comes from. If, if you, if you're more interested in going back to a biblical view of Christianity, I just think a lot has been invented, has been weaponized, has been interpreted a specific way to make sex more important than it, than it really ought to be for, for Christian for Christians generally.
Would
Katherine: you say if... If it's about power, let's just theorize that it's about power. Is there a possibility that sex is just an easy thing to control? And it's more just like open and, you know, like, you can hide it but like something like, attracted to the same sex and you want to have that kind of relationship or, or like that physical act of Being with someone and having [00:30:00] intercourse and like, like those are just like physical things and it's just like an easier thing to control and because it's more like out there could that be a reason why this is the thing if it's about power?
I don't know.
Marie: No, I think that's definitely part of it. And of course, sex is tied to reproduction, too, right? So it's not just about sexual behavior. It's about, you know, women bearing children and whose children will they be bearing. So, you know, we know that in cultures all across time and place that we've been able to study, sex is also very important in societies.
It's not just Christians who have made sex important. So I want to be clear about that. And part of that is because it is still, in many cases, about power. Men want to know that the children their wives are bearing are their children. Like, that's, that's one thing that anthropologists have, have a lot of times talked about.
Kinship relations and, you know, these kinds of things. So, sex has been important in part because it is... [00:31:00] deeply tied up in in reproduction. And, and I think our reproductive politics today, a lot of the, you know, the, the refusal to see that the way to reduce the abortion rate is to make contraception more available to prevent problem pregnancies and unwanted pregnancies.
But you don't see this huge push on the part of Christians, mostly. To provide free birth control and to make sure that there's sex education in the public schools of a certain kind, those issues often, you know, are still kind of, you know, forbidden and go with anti abortion politics. So I think the reproduction part is really a key part of this, but, but yes, I think it is also about power and.
restricting women's movements, restricting you know, this huge portion of their lives and, and, and making a certain model of marriage, you know, seem like the norm, seem like the God ordained norm. There's one norm for marriage and, and that's [00:32:00] it. And you know, really, I think there's had to be a lot of.
Inventiveness to make that seem like, you know, something that God so deeply cared about right,
Katherine: right, right. So would you say that aside from it being a sex thing, that it really is a gendered thing? I know you had mentioned that earlier and like more about dare we say it's control of women and it's not just about.
celibacy and like purity. It's really about the purity of women. Oh
Marie: yeah. I, I, I think the sources bear that out very, very clearly that the, you know, the, the sort of purity obsession has always been the purity of women. It's not to say men's purity hasn't been talked about and emphasized to a degree, but men have been far less punished for sex outside of marriage and sometimes not punished at all compared to the, the sort of discipline.
of women for, for, for that. So [00:33:00] I think it's very much about gender. The book, Moral Combat, you may remember, you know, I start the book with the suffrage movement, the women's suffrage movement, because that, to me, in some ways, is, is one of the, the kind of, of the core culture war issue we we almost think now so women got the right to vote in 1920, of course, and we kind of think of that as like, Okay, well, that happened and then everything you know, everybody accepted that.
But in fact, there was so much energy against allowing women to vote, you know, it was very close that the, you know, the states had to ratify, you know, this amendment Tennessee my home state was the final one to ratify it. I'm proud to say. My grandmother was a suffragist who, who marched for that, but it wasn't easy.
And the animus against women voting or women having something like equal rights, at least in that one sphere, you know, that animus didn't go away. And so I think a lot of what [00:34:00] you see in these later movements against birth control. Against homosexuality, against sex education, against reproductive rights.
The roots are there in the anti suffrage movement. So it's very much about women, about a desire for women to stay in their place. And let me say clearly, it's not just men who have wanted that. I don't write this as a men against women yeah.
just as many women are invested in that kind of patriarchal hierarchical system because they benefit from it in some way economically, socially. And so patriarchy, or I want to say misogyny, these are systems held up, I think equally by men and women in many, many cases. And and that's a crucial part of the story that we also sometimes I think tend to forget.
Katherine: Yeah. And I think it's a, it's harder. , I would just say from just like [00:35:00] purely from a personal personal perspective to see women fighting so hard for these things. And when I see women upholding it and defending it just it feels very different and it lands very different than like a man.
Upholding it and and defending it as well. But it's also true. It's also very, very true. And, and I, and I learned that very quickly working in and very patriarchal spaces that just because there was a woman in the room didn't make it safer and didn't necessarily mean that women were actually respected in that space.
, and yeah, absolutely. And then I don't remember the name of the person, but the person that was fighting for Susan's Someone maybe fighting for contraception and like the main argument was that it was gonna allow women to be loose and, and have sex with anyone they wanted. And, and she was just like, give us a, give us a break.
Maybe we just like, just want to have freedom. Maybe that, [00:36:00] maybe that's what it, maybe it has nothing to do with promiscuity and just like, just like that being the argument, like, and that is. It's still the argument and that's why I like the church isn't, you know, pushing contraception and making contraception available as a, as a potential solution to mitigating abortion is because it's, it's that same thing, like present day, that same argument is just going to give them license.
Yet we're not talking about that for men, like men who don't have to most of the time. deal with a fear of getting pregnant. Like that's not something that men have to carry. So we're not worried about them. We're not worried about it in that, in that context. And so, oh my gosh, there's so many, so many things.
Is there anything else you want to say about that? And then I'd, I'd love to hear about your, your latest that you're working on now.
Marie: Sure. I think you're right. I mean, just. stress. I think what [00:37:00] you're saying is we're still having the same debates that we were having in the 1920s.
It's a maybe a modernized version of it. But I do think our contemporary debates over abortion and and even to some degree, sexual abuse, sexual harassment, you know, I write about Anita Hill and Clarence Thomas and also about Paula Jones and Bill Clinton, the kind of sexual harassment wars of the 1990s, some of which has been a little bit Thank forgotten.
Those were really critical to because it was about how are women treated in the workplace and what is okay and what is not okay. And it's shocking to think what we used to tolerate. You know what? I mean, my mother, who's now in her eighties, she'll tell me what she tolerated as a secretary, you know, in the 19 sixties and seventies and in the church.
Well, yes, in the church and outside the church, both the kind of soft sexism that we all accepted. Not so soft sometimes. So anyway, I would just say that I do think we learn a lot from history [00:38:00] and that reading up on these earlier debates, I think really sheds important light. On the kinds of arguments that we're still having now, both within the church and within our larger culture.
Yeah,
Katherine: and then just like the context of history about just like history just like repeats itself and then repeats itself and repeats itself and, and it's typically about one group of people or one set of people wanting to be in charge, and in America, it's about like the religious right. It seems wielding Christianity and this war for morality as the way to have power and be in charge and just even just thinking about like very recent election and political figures who, who didn't give a shit about, actual Christianity.
They just got people. You know, whipped up into a frenzy and made them fearful of, , the trans, the trans [00:39:00] agenda, the figurative trans agenda. And before that it was the gay agenda, and then the feminists, and the feminists are after your children, and and then, and then now, like, making abortion the thing and it's about, like, saving children, but it's not about saving children, it's about this, like, control thing and so that to me is, I mean, just intersects with my work, and is, is pretty scary to me that this, And there was kind of just this out of body experience a little bit just like reading the book and thinking about that and then I'll have those moments at times of like, this was the sect, and I came from a very fundamentalist world that was, was very militant in fighting abortion and getting, you know, Christian people that they claimed were Christians into politics and fighting, against like sex, sex education in school because it would just give people license to promiscuity.
They were very, very militant and it's just a very out of body experience to think like that was a sect that I used to be a part of. And I believed they were good people, and [00:40:00] some of them are very good people and, and that the outside world was bad, like those, those bad people that are pro abortion or pro, pro same sex marriage, and to think just like how militant it was.
Now, like looking back on it and just like how just active it was and genuinely good people within it. Absolutely. 100 percent at the same time, people who are just wielding this for power and, and wanting to like claim all of this power in the name of Jesus. And it's, it's scary. It's, it's real.
Marie: I would just say I, yeah, that is, that's it's so true. I, I see it as a true tragedy that Christianity has been so weaponized in this country and elsewhere, not just in the U. S. And all the time and energy and money that has gone into some issues at the [00:41:00] expense to, in my mind.
Of the poor and the suffering and other, you know, really critical issues and how blase we are about economic inequality in this country and, and the state of the poor and suffering of many kinds. To me, it's a tragedy, you know that that we allowed ourselves to get so hung up on particular issues, and have just been almost blinded.
To what I see is really the core message,
Katherine: In the Bible. How does that. Message tie in with what you're working on right now.
Marie: Yeah. Well, it's you know So now this is a hard it's a it's an even more grueling Project as you can imagine because a lot of my sources now are interviews And I really spent a few years now and i'm really in the thick of it now that i'm on leave Interviewing, you know, survivors mostly, but also family members, pastors, you know, people, as I said earlier, just like [00:42:00] my class, different visitors coming from different places, but the vast majority are survivors, survivors of childhood sexual abuse, of abuse when they were teenagers, and also adults, you know, adults, largely women I've interviewed so far, but of course there are men too, you know, who have been abused as men sexually abused.
And abuse happens everywhere. You know, abuse happens absolutely everywhere. The church is not, you know, the only place it happens. But cover ups feel different in different spaces, I think. And the, the degree of the cover up in the church, Is so disillusioning for so many people, the spiritual abuse, the spiritual damage that that has caused people in many ways.
That's sort of the big takeaway for me right now is just how profoundly damaging. Sexual abuse is for people when they are not believed, when they are not treated with love and care. [00:43:00] And, when they are prevented from seeking justice, it's crazy making. I mean, people can just go absolutely crazy.
And the degree, you know, the levels of substance abuse and all kinds of. You know, self destructive behaviors that emerge from that is just stunning. And, we've learned a lot about this since 2002. And that 2002 is an important year because that was when the Boston Globe broke the big stories, the early stories about abuse in the Catholic Church in the, in the archdiocese of Boston.
And, you know, that kind of began this trajectory of attention to the abuse crisis, at least within the Catholic Church, and then more recently in Protestant groups, too. But I think we still have no idea the scope, the scale, the damage that has been done and is still being done because of the cover ups, because of bullying by pastors who refuse to acknowledge this problem [00:44:00] and women who enabled them pastors wives or, or church staff or others who just don't want to believe this is true.
And so really, enable abusive environments to thrive. It's a hard subject. And, you know, I want to write a book people want to read. So I've got to find a way to be, you know, I want to say Here's what we do, like here's where hope is because otherwise who wants to read a book that's such a downer? But I think we all need to be better educated about the realities out there so that we can be equipped to know what to do about them.
Katherine: Mm hmm. Is there any Distinction made or is this part of the scope of the book where you're outlining just the difference between someone who experiences that sexual abuse and cover up within a spiritual context versus. Or, you know, Hollywood, is there a distinction made at all?
Marie: Yeah. And, you know, a lot of the guests who came to my class, we asked them this and I asked [00:45:00] survivors this, I think so because so let me separate out Catholics and Protestants here because one, one big difference between, I think what Catholics are taught about priests and what Protestants are taught about ministers is the sort of stature of the priest.
So traditionally Catholics were really taught that priests. It's were of a higher order, almost a human being, they, they had a sacramental status closer to God. They were the closest thing that anyone was going to get to God. And the kind of deference that that created is part of why children felt they couldn't tell if a priest abused them, because it was, this was God.
And I think the damage for them, it was as if God Had done the abuse and that's very hard to get over and I've heard this from some Protestants, too I think evangelicals at least for me don't have quite the same, you know, the the pastor is still a human being He's perhaps been called, he's [00:46:00] got a calling.
And so there's still, you know, a lot of deference given to him. But I thought when I started this project, okay, there's a difference in how pastors are viewed. But I am coming to realize that in a lot of these evangelical churches, It's pretty close to the same as the Catholics were taught that pastor.
He's on a higher level And what he says, people believe there's been a lot of abuse of women working for churches. You probably know if I had a lesson for listeners right now, I would say if any pastor comes to you And asks you to come work for his church A red flag up in your mind because he, if, if the pastor needs a new church staff, they need to open the search.
They need to go through HR. They need to have a whole process like companies have, like universities have not, you are being targeted. I think in many, many cases, if someone comes to you and says, Hey, you know, you're doing a great job in the church. Come work for me. I have heard so many [00:47:00] stories from women now.
That's where it starts. Or, or maybe she was already being grouped, you know, she's come to the pastor for counseling, she's having difficulty in her marriage or some kind of difficulty with her children. And just, there's a certain kind of pastor who will target the vulnerable in that way.
Now, let me say clearly the vast majority of pastors are not abusers, I definitely believe that. But. There, there are a lot more than I think most of us are aware of people or maybe that because once they reach that position of power, they become sort of convinced of their own authority in a way and they become abusive.
I don't know the psychology of it. I don't know how all that works. But I think that's really critically important for people to, to recognize.
Katherine: Absolutely. Yeah, and I would say like maybe the distinction between like the Catholicism, the elevation of a priest is it's elevated institutionally, whereas, at least what I have seen [00:48:00] when it's a pastor in that place they've sort of put themselves there, and it's not necessarily.
Institutionally across the board, that's what the institution is pointing people towards, but they have managed to get into that position and created that for themselves.
Marie: That's a very good point. I hadn't thought of that. And I think that's a very good point, but the ones who are best at it, they persuade everyone in the congregation that they deserve to be in that place.
Right. But you're right. It's the kind of, the, the charismatic leader, you know, the Ravi Zacharias or, you know, at the local level, whatever, you know, person that is. But you're right. They managed to kind of accrue that charisma and that sense of leadership themselves.
Katherine: Yeah, and maybe the institution comes after in terms of picking it up and not addressing it and not feeding into it.
Chicken or egg. I don't know which comes first. Well, this has been really great and I'm just, I feel like there's so much more to talk about, [00:49:00] but I will wrap us up there. Is there anything else that you wanted to share as we Wrap up the interview part.
Marie: No, I would only ask if anyone listening is interested in talking to me.
I really am. I am trying to interview as many people as I can survivors, but also people who want to work for reform in the church and don't know how family members. friends of people that they worry are being abused. Counselors, anyone, if you are interested in speaking with me, my email is open. R. M. G.
567 at gmail dot com. And I would welcome correspondence with people. I am willing for anyone who wants to be anonymous, to be anonymous. I'm keeping confidentiality from people. A lot of people have very good reason to be confidential. They have children. Sometimes an abuser is, is someone's spouse or ex spouse, and they really don't want their children to know, right?
There's all kinds of reasons. And I'm sensitive to that and we want to protect anyone and not [00:50:00] re traumatize them. But yes, I welcome anyone to contact me who would be
Katherine: interested and your timeline for. When they hear this episode versus when your book is coming out. So timing, when is, when are you hoping to finish?
Marie: Well, I'm a scholar, not a journalist and scholarship is slow. So this book is going to be, you know, a few years in the making realistically. So it's not like I've got a deadline, you know, of the end of October or something, I I'm on leave all of this year, the 2023, 2024, I could. Here and
Katherine: anytime. All right, great.
And I will put that information in the show notes so people can easily access and thank you so much for your time and all of the work that you're doing.
Marie: Thank you, Catherine, for all the work you do. Yeah, I love your work and you keep at it.
Katherine: Thank you.
Thank you so much.
Uncertain is produced, recorded, edited, and hosted by me, Katherine Spearing. Intro music is [00:51:00] from the band Green Ashes.
I hope you've enjoyed this podcast. And if you have, please take a moment to like subscribe and leave a review. Thank you so much for listening and I will see you next time.
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Brian Lee, from Through Cohort and Broken to Beloved Summit interviews Tears of Edenâs Founder Katherine Spearing about the Churchâs harmful teachings on marriage that can result in very real traumaâfor single and married people.
Uncertain is a podcast of Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If youâre enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus.
You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/support
To get in touch with us please email [email protected]
Follow on Instagram @uncertainpodcast
Transcript (Unedited for Typos and Misspellings)
Brian: [00:00:00] Hello everyone, welcome to our session. I'm here with Katherine Spearing. Katherine is the founder of Tears of Eden, a non profit supporting survivors of spiritual abuse, and the host of Tears affiliate podcast Uncertain. She also hosts the podcast Trauma and Pop Culture, and is a certified trauma recovery coach, working primarily with clients who have survived cults, High control environments, spiritual abuse, and sexual abuse.
She also provides specialized trauma informed career coaching, as folks with trauma often need extra support for interviewing and networking, which I can attest to. Catherine is the author of a historical romantic comedy, which we talked about last year, Hartford's, a novel that challenges gender roles in a patriarchal society that will appeal to fans of Jane Austen.
And she's been a guest on a number of podcasts. including indoctrination, and that's so effed up. She's the author of several non fiction articles and writes regularly at katherinespearing. com and tearsofeden. org. Welcome back, welcome back. [00:01:00] Very excited,
Katherine: very excited. Me too.
Brian: So we're here to talk today about being single within the context of faith communities, which is a big I don't know anywhere else that I really hear about this talked about, so I'm excited to dive into it.
What is it like for a single person within these communities?
Katherine: Right, yeah, and I think on the subject of it not being talked about very much, I definitely looked, obviously, that's who I am. So I have looked for books on this particular topic, and they all tend to have this, like, this like, consolation prize flair to it.
Like You're a single, but you didn't want this. So here's some tips for being happy despite the situation that you find yourself in as if it's like. So so sad. And so haven't haven't read a lot where I was just like, Oh, like I'm empowered. I'm inspired. I'm [00:02:00] encouraged very, very rarely. And then also just within this topic that I'm very, I'm very passionate about just living a thriving life wherever you are and being very present wherever you are, no matter.
Single or not, and I think 1 of the things that I have discovered through just the work that I do with religious trauma and spiritual abuse survivors is that to say, hey, like, it's, you know, really important to live a thriving life here. Here are tools to live a thriving life to then. Ignore the systemic issues that then make it difficult to have a thriving life.
It's kind of, it's just half of the story. And so there's a lot of. Messaging towards singles of just like be content and be happy within faith communities without acknowledging the things that then make it difficult to be happy. And one example is [00:03:00] I learned very, very young that it was okay for me to be single, but it was okay for me to be single only.
If I was unhappy about being single and only I was actively seeking to change that status and at the same time be happy being single and so rejoice in this lot that God has given you, but then also actively seek to change it and actively. Date and actively ask for prayer for your future husband. So, it's very, very stark cognitive dissonance happening within these communities.
I also, my, my vocation was ministry and the perspective that I'm coming from for this conversation is. The even growing up in the evangelical church and being in that evangelical perspective, also choosing a vocation of ministry and and being in that for almost a decade. [00:04:00] And and so I think I experienced some of this a little bit more acutely because.
I was in ministry and, and happened to be in denominations that were just much more male friendly. And so having being a woman and then also being a single woman some of the stuff I experienced a little bit more acutely. So that's, that's the example that I'm, the perspective that I'm coming from and, and then we'll occasionally use just some stories and examples from clients and, and friends of mine who've also experienced this as well.
And. But, yeah, so 1st of full time vocational ministry experience was on the mission field in Mexico. I'm 28 years old. I am the only single woman on this fairly large missions team. I went down. To help plant a church that was like my specific reason for going and the, there was a [00:05:00] headquarters office that I went to every day as part of my work and and, and pretty much right away things like they would have a team meeting for.
The church plant, and I was not invited and I, I, I was actively a part of the missions team and would like, go to the office and work in the mission field. All the other women missionaries were. worked at home and were, you know, took care of their children and took care of their homes. They were not actively coming into the offices.
They were invited to this missions team. And so right off the bat, I was like different here. Exactly. Just instantly. And in Mexico, the. The that's hierarchy of, of marriage and marital status is even more extreme, I would say, than [00:06:00] than in the, like the South, which is also pretty extreme and.
And yet nobody was like, Hmm, it's weird that you're not there. It was like, there was no, and I decided not to make an issue about it, that particular thing. But I was still expected to show up, you know, to church an hour early and help set up and put the coffee on. So I was still a part of this team and help lead the Bible studies and all that sort of stuff, but not part of the planning, not offered a seat at the table.
And, and it wasn't a gender thing. It was. The only thing I can think of. A singleness thing. I'm not married. And I think that that was something that I experienced constantly throughout my faith community experience was like, we not a, there's something wrong with you so much, but as a, but a, we don't know what to do with you.
Like, we don't know [00:07:00] what category to put you in. Another example was, I was volunteering. Very actively, this is before I went to Mexico in the youth ministry, and I was very, very actively involved in the youth ministry again, like late 20s, considering youth ministry as a potential avenue for ministry.
If I did go into full time ministry, and the church that I attended did not have like, singles groups and young marrieds and it was just kind of all adult classes and they were topical, which I think is great and. There was a parenting class, and I thought I'm gonna work. I'm working with youth. 50 percent of that is working with parents and.
And then it was targeting like young marriage. Who are my peers? Like some of them are the same age as me. Mm-Hmm. . Some of them are a little bit older, some of them are a little younger. And so it made perfect sense to me that I would go [00:08:00] to this class, which I did, and a week class, I had friends who were leading this class.
A married couple that was leading the class, leading the class. And so I knew them and then there was an older couple in the class who had already raised their children and they were there because they wanted to connect to younger families. And they were the only people that talked to me, nobody else talked to me.
And it was so. obvious that as soon as there would be like a break or the class would end they would like huddle like so fast it was like like very very quickly just just like ah we don't don't leave us alone yeah with that one we don't
Brian: we don't know what to do with her
Katherine: we don't know what to do with her and so i'll always feeling that Experience and, and many years later, I worked in [00:09:00] California, which is a very different culture and and I had a very good experience as a single person in California.
And I started to wonder after a few years being there, did I make that up? Was that my imagination? Like, like, maybe it wasn't as bad. Maybe it was my insecurity. Like, maybe, you know, I, I felt weird. And so that's why I thought these people were ignoring me or whatever. And then I was in in LA during the biggest part of COVID.
So didn't really interact with many people and thought, Oh, maybe I just made it up. Maybe if I go into the spaces and I'm just like super confident, like, they'll be fine. Maybe it's not as bad as I thought. And, and yet, even now, when I go into certain communities, and I would say probably the biggest one right now is as extended family that is in the South.
And it is a much more just like, Nuclear family focused. [00:10:00] Everything is focused on that and you get married and you have kids and then you raise the kids and they go to college and then they get married and they have kids and then they raise their kids and their kids go to college and then they get married and they have kids and that's just a cycle and rinse and repeat and I would go, go to, go to events, go to weddings, go to funerals, be around this, this community of people and It, I was like, it's still here.
It's, it's still real. And, and after like three hours of talking about feeding schedules and potty training, I'm sitting there like, okay, I have a pretty cool life. A lot of cities. I started this nonprofit. I have a book out. I have a podcast. Like I'm a pretty interesting person. No questions, zero interest in my life outside of how much I can engage with their life.
And so it's very, it was [00:11:00] very, it's very, very obvious in those. In certain contexts that there's this otherness and this marginalization and just like you're different and rather in engaging with that difference, we're just going to draw a distance and at best you're ignored at worst, they're actively trying to get you to change who you are and change your marital status and try to figure out what's wrong with you that you're not married.
Right, that is how that is.
Brian: Yeah. Thank you for sharing all that. And I'm, I'm sorry that happened to you and that's not at all alienating. Right? My goodness. Well, and I remember working at a church as a young single man. And I was the worship leader at the time, but it was just. It is a lot of that alienating feeling of, well, who can we hook you up with?
When are you going to [00:12:00] get married? Let's pray for your future wife. And all these things, it's like, and there was a big part of me that wanted to get married, but there was also a big part of me. It's like, but this is kind of, I'm fine with this right now. This is the season of life I'm in. And why is there always this need to rush?
People through these stages of life that may not be for them at all, because even once you're married, then it's the whole train of, oh, well, when are you going to have kids? And then once you have another one, and then it's like, some people are just never satisfied, right? There's this, there's this weird hierarchy of.
Having arrived as a human and it's, I can't even imagine cause I'm not one, but I, it's so much worse for women because not only do you have to get married, but then once you are someday a wife, if you don't become a mother, then you're not really a whole woman and all these other things that I've heard that are just so harmful in these faith communities.
Katherine: Absolutely. Yeah. And then, and then the difference, there is a different flavor, but I think between like a male [00:13:00] experience and a female experience. And I remember going to seminary and, and the church planting, there's like a church planting portion of the seminary that I went to and I loved church planting and I thought it was really cool.
Well, I was told. You know, you'd be a really good church planter if you were a man. The men were told, don't church plant unless you're married. Like, don't do that. Like, that's, I would not advise doing that. Like, you can't do it unless you're bound to another person or you have a wife to do 50 percent of your free labor.
So the pressure, like you're not fully Incubated yet.
Brian: Yeah, unlike, you know, Paul or Jesus or so, you know, for all this stuff that's going on in the churches in different faith communities. Why does this stuff happening
Katherine: matter? I think the biggest reason why it matters is [00:14:00] it can result in very real trauma to, to constantly feel like you don't fit.
Yep. And constantly feel like You are not enough all by yourself. Mm-Hmm. . And that, that that can result in, you know, when you're, you know, supposed to, trying to embrace your life and, and be confident. And be secure and, and love who you are, where you are. And then you're surrounded by people who are looking at you like you're really strange or just like.
Saying things like, well, do you even want to get married or accusing you of being too picky or, or constantly receiving this message of you're not fully. You haven't fully arrived yet. You're not a full, complete human. And, and then as you mentioned, I think that this can have just like [00:15:00] implications for just like the wider community as well, of, of people getting married when they're not ready to get married and I, it happens.
I am so grateful and honored. That enough people have shared with me that they got married too soon. And enough people have shared with me that the reason they got married was because they were dating someone who wanted to marry them and they were afraid someone else wasn't going to come along. And so they locked it down and, and enough people who have admitted that, which means there's probably a lot of more people who have never.
Admitted that because of how much pressure there is like a man saying, hey, you can't plan a church unless you're married. Okay. Let me just find someone to marry me. Oh, maybe in an ideal world. That would never happen. Well, it does happen. And, and there is so much [00:16:00] pressure to, and people end up in these relationships that are Not necessarily healthy because they haven't had a chance to differentiate.
And the messaging around marriage and the nuclear family can lead to a lot of enmeshment in marriage and, and people who aren't able to, to create individual identities because they're so wrapped up in, in that, in that partnership for women. It results in a lot of them just surrendering their power and surrendering their agency the minute that they're in that relationship.
And, and I have friends now who are in their forties and fifties who are learning about their, themselves and their identity as an individual for the very first time, because they just got married so young, they never had an opportunity to figure out who they were and what they really [00:17:00] liked and. I have friends who have told me, and this makes me very sad, that their predominant emotion once they got married Wasn't joy and wasn't excitement.
It was relief. That makes me so sad that it's like, it's over like, so, so sad. And speak so loudly of the amount of pressure and the, and the. Miseries to some extent of being single in these faith communities that isn't self inflicted. A lot of times parts of it. Sure. But, but a lot of it is, is the community itself of not not having.
And I have a dozen stories similar to the Mexico story of just like not having a seat at the table simply because well, part of its gender and part of it was marital status and and not being Treated as if I didn't have anything to [00:18:00] offer because, because I wasn't married. And if you are in those communities all the time, you have no other reference.
You'll start to believe it. It's really hard to not believe when you're getting that inundated with that messaging, that there's something wrong with me and I don't have anything to offer. Why? Why would I want to be at the church planting meeting? I'm not married. I don't have anything to offer that that type of experience.
And it's very, it doesn't just impact single people. I believe very firmly that this. This mentality impacts the wider faith community as well. And as you mentioned, just like, you know, you get married and then it's like when you're going to have kids and the same thing for child free people. Like, you're allowed to be child free, but only if you're actively seeking to change it.
Right? Yet also be content with your child freeness, but also be trying to change it. And then my sister, first baby. Baby wasn't [00:19:00] even barely out of the womb and people are asking her when her second child is coming. Yeah, when's the next one? When's the next one? It's like never enough, it's never enough, never enough, never
Brian: enough.
Yeah, man. It just speaks to how broken these systems are and how flawed the theology is of identity, of wholeness, like you're talking about, of, of, like you're saying, the whole individuation and differentiation piece. It's like, I, you know, you tell your, that story about all the things about Mexico and all these other places.
And it's like, and you know, joining these different small groups or Sunday school classes I think of that quote from Walt Whitman or Ted Lasso or whoever you want to say it's from about being curious, not judgmental, right? And so often people in these faith communities default to a position of judgment or assumption, [00:20:00] right?
Oh, this poor single person, they must be miserable. Let's adopt them and then try to find every eligible. Whatever, to pair them up with. Parade them, parade them across. Yeah. Well, and then by doing that, you turn them into a thing instead of a person, right? Because they become, you become their project, which never feels good.
Never. And then you, you add on the layer of what harm purity culture has done to the church through the 80s and 90s. And all these people, like you're saying, get married young out of a sense of relief to escape the trap of singleness. And then, or they just get married so they finally have sex. Which is awful because they've known nothing about it and weren't ready for it, right?
And then, you know, in the 80s and 90s, there was so much vitriol and defense against divorce. And nowadays, Christians are the exact same statistic as everyone else. It's so, so
Katherine: common. Yeah, and I mean, and that is one of the [00:21:00] ways that it impacts the wider community as well, is because there are so many divorced people, widowed people, they're single.
And, and they're back in that, you know, phase after being married. And it's again, like, what do we do with you? Yeah. Like. Let's find you someone else to marry, like, let's say the cycle starts again and, and it's not, it's not that, it's not a guarantee that marriage A will happen or B will last and, and, and that, and that ability, as you said, to have that curiosity.
A kind curiosity. Not a what's wrong with you, but a tell me about your life. Tell me how you feel about this. And, and giving, giving that space [00:22:00] for people to be different and willingness and that judgment tends to come from a place of fear. We, we fear the thing we don't understand. If someone gets married at 22.
And has never known a life of singleness, they're not going to know what it's like and so it's going to be very different. It's going to be an anomaly and it's so much, it's easier to just not engage and like, and it's safer. To not engage to some extent of just, you know, I'll let her talk to her people and I'll talk to my people and, and it's very sad to me because it's a very, it can be very isolating, I think, and, and very.
What's the word? Yeah, just like, just very kind of, kind of stagnant and, and [00:23:00] oppressive to, to surround ourselves with people who are just like us and in the same stage as us and can talk about all of the things that we talk about. And, and there it's, I think that it's challenging to grow when, when you are.
Surrounded by people who are just like you doing all of the things that you do and and how much more vibrant and colorful life is when we can engage with people who are different than us and single people are forced to do that. Because we're often alone or marginalized in these communities. And so we're constantly seeing things from the perspective of the married person, the people with the family, we're able to engage in those conversations about feedings and, and potty training because everyone's doing it [00:24:00] and, and it does take a little more effort from that parent who has, you From that world and, and look around and see there are other people out there and there are other, there are other stories in the world.
And I, I mean, I was raised in a very fundamentalist world that was very isolating and very much like feared the outside world and feared people who were different than us and didn't believe the same things that we believed. So it was not because of nurture. Unless it was rebellion, potentially that I love.
Encountering people who are different than me. Like I love encountering different cultures. I love encountering people who have, you know, jobs that I've never had different, different lifestyles, different cities, country. Like I just, I love engaging with people who are different and I [00:25:00] find it to be such a fulfilling experience to have so many people that are so different from me.
in my life. It's amazing. And I'm sad for extended family and in the South who cannot engage with conversation outside of their bubble. That makes me sad, you know, personally, but then also just like, you don't get to know me. Yeah.
Brian: Well, and you know, microcosms of. These echo chambers where this tiny little community's behaviors become normalized and then you view everyone else like you're saying as the outsider as the other and like, well, that's weird when really it's like, actually, it's your little group that you can't see outside of right?
So, so how do we break out of that? Like, what can, what can be done?
Katherine: Right? Well, I would say just. Speaking to two different audiences and I would say for, I mean, I mean, really for anyone, but for [00:26:00] a single person, I would say, and I've had to do this, actively surround yourself with people who are for you and not for you, but They would prefer that something about you change specifically your marital status.
And, and, and they're not constantly trying to set you up or find someone for you. There's nothing wrong with that. And I, I mean, and setups happen within the single community too. Like I. A friend of mine the other day, like, showed me two people in a dating app who are in my community. And and I just, you know, gave her my opinion.
Like, this person, they are great, but I really don't think that you would enjoy them. But this person, the little that I know about them, I think that it could be a good fit. And we're not, like, hoarding all the single people. Like, I'm like, I know these two people aren't a good fit for me. They might be a good fit.
I've, you know, connect friends in other [00:27:00] cities. Like, Hey, so and so lives in your city. Y'all should get coffee.
Brian: Well, and I imagine the big difference is that it's invited, right? Instead of imposed.
Katherine: Yes. She showed me the people on her dating app. I'm like. Asked my opinion. 100%, 100 percent that the invitation has been given.
And it also within the context of actually knowing the person, not just, Hey, this person is single. Yes. That's good. Together. Yeah. You actually know what would be good for them. And, and so surrounding yourself with people who Campioning you excited for you excited for your life, and I, I have actively had to do that and have had to seek out people and fill my life with people who are on my team and cheering me on and there are some people in my life who still find it a little strange, you know, [00:28:00] my.
Marital status, but they're, they, they have kind of moved to being more of a, an acquaintance simply because of, of, of that particular part of it is that it's not, I'm not fully accepted in their eyes and they're not fully able to engage with my life right now. And so that might happen. And it's challenging, but it's also absolutely 100 percent worth it to be surrounded by people who are for you.
And then for just like the wider community, I think just cultivating, as you have already stated, curiosity and a interest and people who are different, and that will serve. across the board for any marginalized community of just being willing to engage and ask questions and not treat like a [00:29:00] project as you, as you mentioned, as someone that I need to fix or my token single friend.
Yay! I have one. Well, the
Brian: other thought I just had is like, or what I often see in churches or faith communities is that the single people get treated as free labor. Because they're single. So you must have all the free time in the world to go volunteer for this thing or take care of this thing. And it's like, can we also stop doing that, please?
Katherine: Absolutely. Yeah, I didn't, I didn't mention this at the top of the conversation, but in that same church planting experience in Mexico, usually when you start a church, first thing you need is a pastor. And then the next thing you need is a worship leader. And then the next thing you need is a children's minister.
And I saw it coming. I saw it coming. I was like, no, I was like, I drew, I was like, I don't care if I get fired. No . Yeah. I will not be in charge. Yep. Of
Brian: children's mission. Well, and I've heard horror stories from missionaries on the field who, [00:30:00] for their team meetings or staff meetings, same kind of a thing for the single people who were there as part of the team.
Fully part of the team. Mm-Hmm. don't get invited to meetings because they are expected to stay behind and babysit for all the married couples kids, it's like. What, you know, what is that
Katherine: I did during the team meeting? What is
Brian: that? Exactly. Yeah. And it's just, you know, and you know, you're a trauma recovery coach night.
I don't think either of us are actually therapists or counselors, but, you know, when I think of not just trauma, but complex trauma, like the CPTSD part, it's, it's when these little traumas are drip by drip happening over and over and over again, over an extended period of time. And so it makes sense why.
We get indoctrinated with these ideas or why it's so hard to break out of those kinds of systems or Find and surround ourselves with these people who are curious about us and for us and all those things who? Want a real identity? for our single friends [00:31:00] Or single people that we don't know that we want to become friends with.
And it's like, I just want to know who you are. I don't care that you're single or not single or a wife or not a mother yet, or any of these things, like it applies to pretty much every stage of life. If we would allow people to just be people and not projects. We would go a long way. I
Katherine: think. Absolutely.
Yeah. Just let what? Yeah. And that just simple curiosity of just letting someone be who they are. And, and maybe they will share that they really do want to get married and, and they are sad and hold space for them in their sadness as you would hold space for anyone grieving. Yeah. And, and not necessarily, Yeah.
Okay, let's fix this. Let's find someone for you. Like that's grief like any other kind of grief. Yeah. And, and let's let, let's grieve together rather than. Yeah. Seek to find [00:32:00] the thing that will take this pain away because it's, it's not going to take the pain away really. It's, there's going to be something else, you know, like we're never.
We're never, and I think I learned that recently from the the speaker at the retreat con for Tours de Vida in our first in person event. And she just, she talked about thriving and she gave us this, this grid of all these different like seasons of life and stages of life and your career and then your family and then your relationships and then your friends and then your church community and like all these different, you know, bubbles of our.
You know, acquaintances and, and spheres of our lives. And, and she was like, you're never going to be thriving in every single one. Yeah, and that doesn't mean you're not thriving. Yeah. Just to have a few that are not going well does not mean you're not thriving. And it was really, really helpful because I felt like I was always searching for the state of equilibrium and which [00:33:00] everything was going well.
All the time. We're never going to be in that place, whether we are married or single or otherwise. And so, so being willing to hold that space for someone wherever they are in that and not try to fix it just as we would for anything else. And not treat it like it's this other thing, like we don't, this disease to some extent.
So let's stay
Brian: away and yeah, well, and you briefly touched on it earlier, but the idea of singleness is not just about I've never been married before or been on a date or any of those things, but it's it's also people who have been divorced or widowed or whatever those things are. And it's like when we allow them to just be people.
And grieve with them in that process, if they are grieving, right? And then not jump to try to solve their problem of, Oh no, you're single and alone again. How do we set you up with someone else? It's like, no, that's not the answer. It's like, be curious, ask, like, Has anyone asked what they actually want? [00:34:00] Or are looking for?
Or are they perfectly happy being single? Or is it a married couple completely happy never having kids? Yes, whatever the situation is, right? And I think there's so much that can be said for Meeting people where they are and on allowing them to be where they are in the season that
Katherine: they're in. Yeah.
And then I think just to kind of wrap it up of in order to be willing to accept someone where we are, we, I think we have to acknowledge some of that theology that has been ingrained into us that dictates this mentality that marriage singleness and parenthood is more ideal than. Being trialed free and, and the people who have been told that they're selfish for not wanting children or you're not a full complete human being until you're married and joined to another person those, those messages are very damaging and, and that is where that trauma comes from.
So some of it's [00:35:00] just. It's cultural. I'm like just swimming in it and that's just the way it is. But some of it actually comes from really damaging messaging about deep things. And that might be something that people need to wrestle with before they can even get to that place. Of accepting someone who's different because if it's like, you're not just different.
There's actually something wrong with you and you're actually doing something wrong by not having kids or you're actually doing something wrong by getting divorced or, or, or something like that, then it's going to be hard to engage. So that might be something that folks just need to. Wrestle with and yeah, figure out what they
Brian: believe.
Yeah, that's really good as we wrap up you mentioned your retreat con. Would you tell us more about
Katherine: it? Woohoo. Yes. So tears of eden is As mentioned earlier is the non profit for survivors of spiritual abuse and from folks from the evangelical Community primarily. We had our [00:36:00] first in person event in October.
And one of the things that Tears of Eden does is we do provide resources to sort of name that experience. But we do seek to be trauma informed. And one of the things that is helpful for healing trauma is, is integration between our minds and our bodies and engaging our bodies in that healing process.
And so we had a speaker and she was. A phenomenal, wonderful person. And then and then we also had just very embodied workshops when normally you would go to, you know, maybe a small group and like, sit and listen again in a workshop all of these workshops are very active embodied workshops. We had yoga.
We had improv. We had dance. We had a story jam, which is this live storytelling event and that Opportunity for people to tell stories and have an audience engage with them. Just a very embodied event and it was so cool. It was so fun. It was I hope everyone who is a survivor gets [00:37:00] that experience of being in person.
With someone who's also had that experience. There's something extremely special about just like meeting someone and knowing instantly that they get it. It's just, there's nothing like it. It's, it's really, really cool. So yeah, everyone gets to do it
Brian: sometimes. I love it. Congratulations on getting to do that.
Yes, it was great. It was very exciting. Where can people find you or RetreatCon
Katherine: online? So my personal website is katherinespearing. com and my main social media presence is on Instagram at katherinespearing. And Tears of Eden is tearsofeden. org. We also have a podcast and the main social media presence for Tears of Eden is the Uncertain Podcast at, at Uncertain Podcast on Instagram as well.
So check it out.
Brian: Awesome. We'll provide the links for everyone down in the session notes. Catherine, thank you so much for participating again and helping move toward healing
Katherine: and [00:38:00] wholeness. Wonderful. Thanks for having me.
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Connie Baker, LPC author of Traumatized by Religious Abuse and a therapist who works with survivors of religious trauma, joins Uncertain to discuss what thriving might look like after Spiritual Abuse. This is a nuanced subject, intended to provide hope (not pressure!).
Thank you for joining us for Spiritual Abuse Awareness Month in 2024!
Uncertain is a podcast of Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If youâre enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus.
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Transcript is unedited for typos or misspellings
[00:00:00] I'm Katherine Spearing, and this is Uncertain. It's Spiritual Abuse Awareness Month, and this is our last episode of January 2024. My guest today is someone who It has become very, very special to me. Her name is Connie Baker. She is a therapist. She has a book for survivors of religious abuse. And Connie was our very first guest speaker at our very first in person event.
Back in October, and it was phenomenal. She can speak to the survivor experience in such a meaningful way because she is one. And she's been doing this work long before I even heard of spiritual abuse.
She has so much knowledge and I trust her to address this subject of thriving after spiritual abuse with nuance and care because nobody wants to be pressured [00:01:00] into thriving when you're just trying to survive and that's not the point of this episode but this is a glimmer of hope for down the road that maybe someday maybe someday We will be here.
Here is my conversation with Connie Baker.
Katherine: Hello, Connie. How are you?
Connie: Good. So fun to see you, Catherine. I'm so
Katherine: excited to see you again. For our listeners, Connie was our guest speaker, keynote speaker at the RetreatCon, which was Terzian's very first in person event in the fall. She was phenomenal. I loved every moment of her. Connie's talks, but then also just getting to hang out with this person.
So if you have a chance to buy her book and oh shoot, I'm totally blanking on the name of your book. What
Connie: is it? It's right, Traumatized by Religious Abuse. Yes. Say it one more time. Traumatized by Religious Abuse.
Katherine: Beautiful.
Wonderful. Amazing book. Very, very, very practical. A lot of folks [00:02:00] have named your book is just very practical for survivors. And one of the things that we invited Connie to do at the retreat con was speak about. Yeah. thriving after spiritual abuse, which I think so many of us are surviving. Maybe we're healing.
We don't really talk about like that moment when you get a chance to just kind of come out of that survival space and laugh. And have fun and see the sun and, and it seems impossible sometimes that we'll ever get to that place. Yes. But, but Connie, Connie is really great about making that realistic. Not, that's, that's what I think I loved about it.
It's not fluffy and silver linings. It's realistic and I learned so much from your talk. So I'm really excited to get to jump into that again. to just get us started and sort of lay a [00:03:00] foundation for discussing what it's like to thrive after spiritual abuse after we've been through this. Could you paint a picture for us of what the impact of spiritual abuse feels like?
Like, what does that look like to someone? Oh,
Connie: yes, yes, I can. Yes, I can. And before we go there, Catherine, I just want to say, I am so thrilled that that was the first retreat. Like, in other words, others are following. It was so, and I know you probably talked about this in follow up podcasts after the retreat, but it was powerful having all those humans.
And I think there was also extra power in it post, well, post late pandemic, whatever we're calling this thing for people to to. Humanly be in the same space and connect. I think, well, Terry, just remembering it, it just was so [00:04:00] powerful. And so I'm just thrilled that you are hosting. Cause we talked about this when I was there.
We both have hosted big events before, you know, in our life. And I know what it takes to put something like that on. What was there 25, 30 people somewhere in that range, you know, and, and to have that. And the spaces that you. Provided anyway, I just want everybody to go to second annual. Yes, everybody to thank you so much.
Yeah, no, I just I'm just reflecting thinking back just with you even, you know, yes, just being here with you. Remembering just the. Goodness. And all the things that happened there.
Katherine: Yeah, I, I've, I felt all of those things too. And just was just so thrilled at, I mean, I just like picture that weekend and it's like surrounded and like sunlight and warmth in my mind.
Like that's the image. It was just such a warm. Just, oh, [00:05:00] and then that whole idea of thriving after spiritual abuse, like we got to taste it, this can be real. This isn't fake. This isn't this isn't false positivity. This is genuine, you know, just joy, like an experience of joy.
And the fact that like, oh, after all, all of us have been through, you know, And in this room and we're laughing together. Like it was just like, Oh, we
Connie: laughed so much. Oh my gosh. And you brought a lot of that. You and your leadership team are just pretty damn funny. And we had a lot of fun with that. And so, yeah, I just wanted to say that when you're talking about that connection, because it really, it really was, I'm just like, no, y'all sign up for number two, second annual Be there.
Katherine: So be there for the second one. Absolutely.
Connie: Exactly. Exactly. So anyway, the question he asked me, what is it? What is the impact of spiritual [00:06:00] abuse? Oh my goodness. I think, I think a lot. In fact, we talked about this at the retreat. I think a lot in life domains. I think it helps break down sometimes. Like what is What is happening to me?
Because it just feels like an avalanche. It feels like you are rolling down the mountain in an avalanche and you can't see what's up down, you know. So I guess I think about, you know, different domains of life spiritually. Oh, let's, let's take Let's take the explosion 1 right off the bat. It can not not have an impact spiritually.
And that doesn't mean that you're for sure going to walk away from the faith, although that absolutely could and sometimes should be what a person does. That's it. It's not just permission. It's like, no. You find your path. But there's a big [00:07:00] range of what that means, means, but there is no way there is not huge levels of damage, spiritually.
It's like existentially, let's take God out of the mix, even, if you're, it doesn't matter whether you say, Whoa, I'm not about this God thing anymore. You still have to rewrite meaning purpose. Life after death, the, the, the, what is a human being? I mean, you just gotta rewrite all that. It's just huge.
So there again, spiritually, it, it can be devastating. And often is. Often, for me I think. What am I in decade? I've done, I'm over three decades past my primary spiritual abuse and there's still times I go, okay, still rewriting a little bit of this.
Katherine: It went, it went deep.
Connie: Yes, it goes deep. So then I'm thinking the impact on the body.
Most people don't get out of it without sickness, or, or [00:08:00] injury, or, we're connected beings, so physically it can just smack ya. In so many ways, I'm not gonna elaborate, but just to help people think through what is the impact, you know? Then you've got the emotional, psychological, which most people go through.
first. And it's like, right, that's true.
Katherine: Yes. Yeah. I'm probably the one that makes most sense. Yes. But as you said, we're integrated and
Connie: it's going to affect our bodies and our spirits and our whatever we want to call it. So, so the trauma, I mean, you and I are therapists and those listeners who've heard, you know, you, you know, your stuff and Trauma affects our neurological system, our, you know, our brain, our body, our thought process, our emotions.
And so it's just, it just is so extensive and pervasive. I think is another good word. Then you get into the social realm. Yeah. What does it do to families? [00:09:00] Oh, . What does it do to friendships, to community, to parent child relationships, to marriages, to partnerships? I mean the social impact and community. Oh, how I was just telling client this, I think two days ago.
It was yesterday. We were talking about, she's like, I just, I'm trying to sort out how to get community. And I could tell by how she was talking about it, there was kind of this framework, like, I'm the only one. Why, why, why is this so hard for me? I'm sure other people have it together. There was kind of this underlying implication.
And I said, you just need to know something. Do you know, I have this conversation almost daily. Wow. With my clients. What? How? You're not the only one. No! Please! Rebuilding, especially if you've been raised in the church, [00:10:00] Rick, the, okay, we all know on this podcast. What the toxic streams that run through organized religion.
We're clear on that. But I'm telling you, for better and for worse, they do community like nobody else.
Katherine: Yeah, and that's just the reality of like how to find that type of organic community. Oh! Side of the church that that I think that's probably the biggest grief for me. And then for so many people How do I get that that's the part I miss the most
Connie: besides trauma recovery I would say community especially if we're talking about thriving when people are finally Starting to put their head up above A little bit and look around to see the devastation.
That's one of the first questions and it's one of the hardest. So if Those listeners If you guys are struggling to say, how do I do? Community you are not alone. It is [00:11:00] like one of the core themes after trauma recovery I would say it's number two of saying how do I get the social support and the community?
Resources that I used to have in a church because it is what Organized religion does for the positive. It, it provides consistent meeting places, a common worldview, and a common purpose you're working toward. And I feel like those three things are just in reflection over three decades of trying to sort all this through.
Those are the three things I've come down to. A lot of organizations have one or two of those, but the power is all three. And it, This consistent meeting time, again, the consistent meeting time, the common world, commonly held worldview, and doing something, making something together, you know, creating something together.
Oh my gosh, like, it's a powerhouse, I think in a very positive way. [00:12:00] We all know it can go very toxic and all that, but there's also we, we continue our, I think our souls continue to look for that when we say, I can't do that thing anymore or in that way. Even if you stay in an organized religion in a church, almost everybody I know says, Oh, my relationship with church is completely different.
Like it used to be everything. Okay. So we're getting all. Yeah. The community topic, the damage is so huge and then it can damage things like your finances. All can wipe out your finances to go through religious abuse or to be religious abuse or either one and then you've got career. It can even shift career paths for people.
And so my hand, yes, right. Exactly. My career. Yeah. Oh, totally. I would never have gone into this field without without my abuse. Not never, but highly unlikely. Honestly. So, so all these different domains of [00:13:00] life, it can. It can determine where you live, you could make up and have to have a move. So I just want to just to be able to bring all that in and say, you know, the impact is monumental.
Right.
Katherine: And when you said at the beginning, just like addressing that spiritual part, I think that for even folks who have experienced it we'll kind of do this like compartmentalizing thing of like, it's just, I just need to figure out that part and like what I believe now. And, and then maybe, or even compartmentalizing it and like, okay, I am done with God and I'm done with church and I'm moving on.
But then not recognize all the other places that that is impacting and try to address that one compartment of spirituality. And so I'm very thankful to you for pointing out all of the ways that this can impact us and that we can't just compartmentalize and just say the right [00:14:00] spiritual thing.
Connie: Yeah, we can't and we can't compartmentalize any of them. Even even when you talk about mental. You know, you and I are therapists. When we talk about the mental emotional realm, you can't compartmentalize that because we're hooked to physical bodies and we're hooked to worldviews and existential ideas and money and it's like, no, you know, whatever it is, that part alone, if that, if our brains and neurological system take that hard to hit, it's going to have, it's going to have bleed over into other domains.
And so, yes, but I totally agree often. Yeah. Because that's how our brains are trained to think all spiritual, to be very compartmentalized and say the spiritual is the most important. And I think that's, I think that's fine to think that, but it's not the only. You know, and, and to say, Oh, I'm just going to figure out we can cuss on here, right?
Yes. In the spiritual, I'm thinking, I'm just going to say it in the [00:15:00] spiritual realm, get it gathered there. We'll just make everything. Okay. It's like, Oh. You've taken a lot harder hit than just a spiritual issue and that's huge. I'm not minimizing it. I'm just saying it's, it does not stand alone, which is what exactly what you're saying.
Katherine: Yeah. And then I also appreciate you highlighting the financial part too, because I think that that's a. a place that is sort of a hidden impact of it. And, you know, maybe your career and you like switch jobs or you get a new job or you switch careers or you move or
Connie: you or might have to make a physical move.
Katherine: Yeah. Yeah. Or you, you didn't, or your job wasn't impacted and you weren't like on staff at a church or something and you were still able to do your job. But then. The physical impact that leads to potentially having to go on meds or, or getting ill, as you mentioned, or having to go to therapy and pay [00:16:00] for therapy.
Like, I mean, I just think of like how much money I've spent on therapy in a decade. I'm like, I could have bought a house with that money.
Connie: So
Katherine: much money that I am very. Believe was very well spent. I don't regret spending it. But at the same time, it's like that. That is a massive one of the reasons. Yeah.
And one of the reasons by tears of Eden, we offer our support groups for free because there are so many other things that people have to spend money on to recover. We don't want to give you another thing that you have to spend money on in order to recover. So yeah, I really appreciate you highlighting, highlighting all of those things for us.
What are some of the initial steps that you have seen people take in that healing journey? Common, common things that people will do. Once they have come out of this really horrendous experience. What are some of the steps?
Connie: Oh, that's a [00:17:00] great question. Well, you know, I'm a therapist. And so 1 of them is they're coming to therapy is 1 of them.
And, you know, and let me say something. I truly don't believe that therapy is the only way to heal. I truly don't. I think there are people. And there are resources and there are online resources. There are so many things that can help us heal. And a lot of times people go, Oh Connie, you know that person.
Oh my gosh, they so need to go to therapy. And, you know, and, and I'll be like, I need therapy. Yes, exactly. Well, I, I see why you're saying that. Yes, indeed. But, but really, There's also, therapy is one piece of a pie in healing, so, and sometimes it's a really essential pie, and part of the piece of the pie, and sometimes it's not that [00:18:00] essential a piece, sometimes people do a really good job of doing their own work using other resources, so what I see is people, you know, what they start doing, part of it is they start actually processing their own story in some way or another, so They're like, okay, what, what just happened to me?
Like, I know I was just in an explosion or an avalanche, whatever we want to call it. But, like. What happened? How did it happen? How did it happen to me? What happened? A lot of times it's not even clear what exactly took place. All I know, I'm bleeding out an artery and I don't know exactly what happened.
Was, was I in a car wreck? Or was it a tornado? Or was it an avalanche? Or how did I get here? So I think processing this story is, [00:19:00] is another thing that people really start doing when they Just like survive the first initial Blow and saying either I'm distancing myself or I'm getting out or whatever form that takes.
I think those are a couple really big things right off the top. They start and to heal and thrive. They start having to make connections with other people who get it. Somehow, there may not even fully be other survivors, although I think that's super helpful and healing, but at the beginning, it just may be somebody who has a good sense and and will
Katherine: validate.
That was a big deal. Yes,
Connie: that was really painful. Yes, exactly. And that was traumatizing and. Wow, how did you survive that the validation feels like such and and they and I think most people in some way or another start getting educated about it [00:20:00] and that's the answering what happened and I know my book I always say I wrote to me at 25 years old I wrote saying what girl what did you need to understand that you had no clue about that would have Facilitated your healing instead of taking a decade to think I was going to survive the resources we have now.
It's like, you can't speed up the process, but you can help it and aid it and keep from getting from. Infected you know, re traumatized. There's certain things you can do to help healing progress. Well, and I didn't have a lot of that. So that definition of what happened, how was I vulnerable? I'm a strong, yeah, I'm a strong cognitive person.
How did, how did this happen to me? I'm a leader. How did this happen? So, you know, all of those things, I think sorting out [00:21:00] the story, getting validation from other people who go, whose eyes get wide and they're like, What did you go through? And especially when you've got a whole community that's basically saying, it's your fault.
You know, the whole, if you leave a community, the whole community is like, Hmm, your problem, it's your fault if it's an abusive system. And
Katherine: that's a lot of people saying that about you.
Connie: Oh, you're, sometimes your whole world. I mean, everybody that matters. As saying that you're Paul and I remember telling the story to other people, including my second date with my husband, who is now my husband.
There was some good trauma dumping that happened there anyway. And honestly, it was also some important information both of us needed to know. And. And so I remember telling him and him being a pastor, a former pastor, he looked right at me and said, that was abuse. Nice. Oh, there were probably some abusive [00:22:00] elements, but I was, you know, it was my issue.
I made some bad choices. Oh my gosh, thank God for my husband, you know, who was like calling bullshit. Yeah, this was abuse. Yeah. And to tell other people outside of the system and watch their eyes get wide and say, they did what to you? They did. And those people who don't know my story, I was sexually abused by a pastor and then blamed by the church and.
kicked out for it. That's the short story. And so, you know, to hear people, to tell my story, not in those words, actually taking much more responsibility. For what happened and then look at me and say they did what and I'm like, why are you not saying? Why did you do that? Yeah And it's just so important to have those other people So those are some of the immediate things that come to mind when I think of what people are doing I'm sure there's a much better list, but those are some immediate things when
Katherine: people are processing their story in the aftermath?
What [00:23:00] percentage of folks or what? range of folks It's that process their story, but not just the story of the abuse, because I'm thinking of another domain that this might resuscitate is, is your past and like, Oh, what happened in your childhood that like brought you to this place and how. How are, I mean, I know that that happened for me of, of knowing that the trauma that I was experiencing in the church, because it was so similar to what I experienced in my family, that I was severely, not only traumatized in real time, but I was also being re traumatized, and having to balance that.
So, yeah, what percentage of people were, were it impacts their entire life story, not just that part?
Connie: I, I don't see Always, never, every, but I will say 99. 9%. Yes.
Katherine: I'm not going to say every person, but I'm going to say most people.
Connie: Yeah, pretty much every person. Yeah. Part of it [00:24:00] is because we bring, this is part of brain science, is we bring our paradigm, our neuropathways for positive and for negative to every situation we encounter.
And so if we're, if, If power and control dynamics are already familiar, and if you're raised in conservative religion, they are. They can't not be. And the more conservative and fundamentalist, in my view, the more power and control dynamics come into play in the institution and the world view, those are deeply familiar and viewed as positive.
And so you, how would you not step foot? Yeah, into a system that loves power and control and eventually misuses it. And so to me, and you don't understand those dynamics. I mean, you just don't, you don't get that when you're [00:25:00] raised like that. This is, you know, the Bible says, God says, the pastor says it's, it is.
What's considered by everybody to be incredibly positive, helpful you know, the right thing. And so to bring that, the, all those neural pathways that form a worldview and you put trauma, most of us, 99. 9 percent of us have either trauma with a capital T or a lowercase T in childhood and adolescence, you don't survive this life without.
Massive jolts as a child or adolescent. So then you create worldviews. Around those, you're bringing them into the next, if they're not processed well, and most of us take our lifetime to process these well, and that's not discouraging, that's just realistic, but we usually don't have it all processed at 20 years old, and, no, we don't have it all processed then, and so we're bringing even previous trauma, and the [00:26:00] familiar feel of how that got there, and, So, yes, we're, it is, I have yet to sit with a person for very long and say, Oh, this is the sole thing we're talking about.
I don't even remember ever doing that. It's like, okay, we're talking about this, but they start saying, Oh, my gosh, this was a replication of this situation in my childhood. Yes, it was. It's what we do. And there's no, there's no shame in that. It's just what, it's how our brains work for better and for worse.
This is, I mean, you know, us therapists deal with pathology, but our brain has also given us all kinds of survival tools, how we cope through all of that. So,
Katherine: yeah, and those things can sometimes even help to like the process of just like recognizing that something is helping us recognize something is wrong or helping us helping us wake up.
And that that those experiences are can also be just really Can be helpful and [00:27:00] and our resources that we can tap into as we are in that healing process, and I don't want to skip over the healing process as we jump into thriving so I just want to create a disclaimer of like when we talk about thriving.
This is, this is like. A way to just provide some future hope. Not as a way to put pressure. We're not saying you need to be here or you need to be here at a certain time.
Connie: In fact, some people shouldn't be here yet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't want them to arrive yet. Right. Right. You know, it's, that would, you know, and I use physical metaphors all the time, but that's like, you know, when I was going through cancer and treatment saying you need to start training for a marathon girl.
No, no, it's not
Katherine: that's the need to get through your day. That's what
Connie: exactly survive today. Make sure you're getting something in your stomach. Make sure your nausea meds, you know, whatever it [00:28:00] means. It's not time to do a marathon, but we're talking about a level. Of robust health in the future that's possible and that's where I just yeah, I, I remember at the retreat.
I said, how many of you know, I said, how, how does us talking about thriving land or something to that effect because I knew there were going to be people that are going, Oh, shut up. I don't want to keep flagging. I'm like, and, and good for you. That's right. Because your system is telling you this is premature and.
And just take it as that. Say, yeah, I'll hear this, you know, have, listen to these two yapping about thriving. But I also think it could be, it's a hopeful beacon too, to say, you're going to be able to. And, and some of you listening, I know are, are either on the verge or starting to say, I think I'm past survival mode and it will be your time to hear some of this.
Yeah. And,
Katherine: and one of the, the markers [00:29:00] of trauma is feeling stuck. And have this vision of like, it will not always be this way. There is a time in the future where you will laugh again, and you will thrive. That can help unstuck us. And that's the point of this. This episode not to say you should drive. No.
Why aren't you thriving yet? Absolutely not. No, no.
Connie: I'm so glad we're talking about that because yeah, it's like, no, some of you, and I think it'd be, it's great for people even right now to take a breath and say, how do I feel about this topic? What? And most of the time, what mixed feelings? It used to, we're not one way or the other, but what mixed feelings do I have about this topic?
And to just, you know, welcome all of those feelings about it and, and honor them as we talk,
Katherine: and if you, and if you feel like. This is where you, you leave us and you need to [00:30:00] pause the episode and come back in a few months or a few years. You're, you can do, you can do that.
Connie: Please do that. Exactly.
Katherine: Absolutely.
With that, what's thriving
Connie: and how do we get there? What is thriving? Well, you know, there's all kinds of ways to define it. But of course, I,
MarkerConnie: a bit of a nerd, you know, just kind of, I'm thinking, what is the definition? And I went to, you know, some good old dictionary, standard dictionary definitions, and I like them.
To grow or develop vigorously. Isn't that a great word? Oh, I love it. To prosper or flourish. Oh, I like the word flourish. Yes, isn't that beautiful? To do particularly well under specified conditions. That's another one I loved about. Oh, that's Yes to do particularly well under specified, you know, because then that gives us options to say [00:31:00] Kinda like a plant.
What specific plant food does that plant need? Does it need more light? Less light? Does it need more water, less lot water and to, to allow ourselves, I think the individuality of healing and then thriving needs to be honored. Mm-Hmm. It is not a prescription. Okay. I mean, how often Catherine, you know, this happens.
My, my clients are like, how long is it gonna take me to get better? Give me, give me a time frame. Okay, we've been doing this
Katherine: for a while. Let's, let's
Connie: Yeah, let's First of all, with the physical body, it's much easier to do that, and there are still, you know, doctors still fudge and say, well, you could be up and around in three days, or it could be up to like three months, you know?
I mean, there's, even in the physical body, There are those, this doesn't always everybody, everybody's body doesn't do it the same and you put that in a [00:32:00] brain in a, in a neurological system and the variables are huge. So I just want everybody to, you know, be able to say, this is my journey. I mean, the downside is we can't say, okay, process your story and month one.
Do this in month two, you know, it doesn't work like that. First of all life happens, right? I mean, yeah So and so to come back and just honor This is my path and something you said earlier to we often feel very stuck in trauma recovery But most of the time and I will say this is most I would say but I would say 19 out of 20 Times when my clients say I'm stuck.
I'm like, oh, okay That's kind of that's important to look at are you stuck? So let's take a look. So are you? Exactly where you were a year ago. Oh, no. Not, oh gosh, [00:33:00] no. Oh. Then maybe this isn't stuck. They hate this. Cause, especially the ones who've been with me a while. I feel stuck. Don't say it. I know. Yeah, don't say it, because it's just taking longer than we want to.
Yes, we would like to feel better tomorrow, thank you very much. It's like, so, so, to honor the fact that this takes time, and often if we're not moving quick enough, we say, I'm stuck. And I'm like, it feels like stuck, but let's look at actual progress and sometimes I'll say, are you exactly the same place you were even three months ago.
No, Connie, I'm not, you know, I mean, they're like, whatever, but I want to honor the stuck feeling because it is there, but let's not call it actual stuck because that's actually not where we're at. So how did we get here? Catherine,
Katherine: we were talking about, Oh, I don't know, but I was really chocked up.
Connie: [00:34:00] Good.
Good. So I just want to go driving. And
Katherine: how do we get there? What is, yeah, what does driving look like? And then how do we, how do we get there? That was the original
Connie: question. Good. Okay. So what's thriving? I think that looks different too, for different people. And it's going to look different than it did before.
That's the other thing. I think we need to accept and kind of reconcile. In ourself, sometimes it is going to look like like the name of the treat was retreat was laugh again, and it's like eventually laughter needs to be another part of your life again, the ability to laugh hard and laugh freely, but even the laughter and what it's about the texture may feel different than it did before.
And that's not all bad. Most people when they are really starting to thrive will say. Of [00:35:00] course, I hate what I had to go through, but I actually like me better now. Mm hmm. What, what bigger success is there than that? To me, that's, and I know that's my story. It took me 10 years in a very dramatic moment. I write an epilogue in my book, a very dramatic moment.
For me to go, Oh, I like who I am and not that it was right that it happened, but there's, I think it was evil that what happened to me and it should never happen to anybody, but there was a part of me that said that has made me who I am and my gratitude for that was profound and I find that's pretty consistent and so it's maybe different.
And it likely is going to be different, thriving, than what it used to look like. But I also think thriving is going to have greater dimension, and wealth, and color, than it did before. And that, [00:36:00] that's, to me, that's the beauty of suffering handled well. Like you actually get in suffering. I am not Again, don't hear me saying woohoo for suffering No, a lot of it is needless and should never be there and I don't wish it on anyone that said I feel like beauty can come from that and Healing and not just okay.
I'm better like, okay. I got over it But a sense of oh who am I now that I really love that I didn't have Parts of me before that are here.
Katherine: Yeah. Yeah. It's a, it's a a hurdle to get past this like reality of like, yes, this should have never happened. Yeah. Yes. And, and, and this is a, this is a churchy word, this is a Jesus word, but it's also just a word.
I see that rather than like, Oh, justification for what happened or a reason for what happened and rather like a redemption. [00:37:00] Yes. Get to step into. And now we get to claim and we get to say this happened. Yes. But despite it, this is now who I am. Yes. Yes. Resiliency of the survival spirit and the human spirit that is ours to access.
Yes. And that abuser or abusive system does not get the final word.
Connie: No. We do. That's right. And that where I love that's so funny. I I was thinking I hope she's gonna use the word redemption Because you know the church has Hijacked the word and stolen in many ways and made it its own domain its own territory.
It's not There's something beautiful about something that word Yes, they don't own it and for us to say no something could be redeemed something Some beauty could come out of something horrible. And I think that is, that is apart [00:38:00] from and across religious perspective. That's, that's just one of those, that's a, that's an existential life thing.
And it's like, let it, let it, let it be there. So, you know, part of, we talked about this at the retreat, Catherine, but part of thriving, first of all, I think, to, we need to see our all or nothing assumptions. Around thriving, we, we often, I think, especially when we're hurting and trying to heal and trying to survive, we see thriving as a light switch.
That's going to pop on 1 day. And, oh, now I'm thriving and even as I say that, most of us who live past. Probably 18 years old, we'll say probably doesn't work quite that way, but it's an underlying assumption that it's going to be. All better, that all domains of [00:39:00] life will be thriving at the same time, and that it is a steady, straight line toward thriving.
This, this, this, these steps, and you're on it. It is a crazy, twisted, three dimensional graph. And it's, you know, if we're saying straight line on a graph toward thriving, It's a mess. It's a snarled mess to get there. And there are going to be areas, I would venture to say that even the people who are hurting the most listening to this right now have areas of their life that they are actually thriving.
They may not be willing to look real carefully at that because it might feel invalidating, which it's not but, but to be able to actually there are certain areas of my life that are kind of on track. I mean, my husband and I started dating [00:40:00] fully recommended six months after I was went through the abuse.
It actually was exactly what it should have been for us. Yeah, again, not necessarily recommended. But. We, that part of my life was very beautiful while I was bleeding out arteries in so many other domains of my life. Does that make my time with, you know, my courtship and my, even that has a lot of baggage to it, our dating years, whatever, you know, dating time less valuable?
Or less than? No, it was actually quite a shining light. Does it make my other suffering less? No, it was horrific. And so, just to, just to look at that and to say, it's not an all or nothing proposition. And it does to hold that lightly and accept the fact that It's, it's not going to be an [00:41:00] all or nothing where all of a sudden one day life is just going to be all easier and all better.
Yeah.
Katherine: Yeah. Yeah. And I think I really appreciated that visual picture that you provided us at the retreat where you gave us domains on a piece of paper and it was just like a bunch of different blocks of different domains, family, social life, work life, spiritual life, all these different domains. Yeah.
And, and you said something to the effect of you can be thriving and have a few of these domains that aren't thriving. Like you can be thriving in general and then have a few domains that aren't going so well. And that was like a relief to me because I think I pictured thriving as everything is going great all the time.
Connie: Right. Well, I have 12. I think of this the cat out. We're talking about I give up 12 domains and these are very flexible. These were [00:42:00] my domains. And I said, I remember saying that retreat and people can say, that's not even a domain for me, or I got different domains. And that's great. But these 12 domains, let me.
Let me go through them real quick because I want to kind of talk about this. Is that okay?
Katherine: Yeah, and then maybe I could get, if you have like a PDF or something, I can put it in the newsletter. If they, if I remember, I probably won't, but no, I have
Connie: it. I have it. I couldn't get that to you. Yeah. So one domain is spiritual health when they're getting, I kind of referred to some of these earlier physical health.
Emotional mental health, of course, isn't that great that I'd forget that one emotional mental health. That's the third. And then it in relationships is the domain of family, your significant other friendships. That's huge. And that can include community like we're talking fun and recreation creativity.
Excuse me creativity adventure are all part of the fun and recreation and then I have a set that I don't know if anybody else uses, but I [00:43:00] love learning and skill building. I loved I'm a learner my heart. So I love like, what am I doing in that domain? My environment my home, my office, my car.
How's that? You know, how are things there in my environment? And then. I've got finances. How are my finances? That's a domain. Work and career. How am I making a living? How's that going? That domain. And then I have a, my last domain is life contribution. And that, that, of course these areas overlap greatly.
You know, they're not separate, but just for the sake of sorting. So my life contribution, what do I do just to contribute to this world? You know, and those are ways you do it in other domains as well, but I have it for me because well, I'm in a better place Yes, and I'm an Enneagram three So I forgive me even now so it just [00:44:00] is so when I look at all of these domains I have never That I recall in my whole life on a scale from 0 to 10, 10 being best ever, 5 being neutral, 0 being in the toilet.
I have never been above between a 6 and a 10 in all these domains at one given time. There's always a path, there's always, it's a
Katherine: neutral. But you would say you're still thriving. You would say. Yes. Yeah. Even if that's not, not everything is a
Connie: 10. Exactly. I, I've got a domain right now that is chronically painful.
There's some stuff family wise, chronically, like, ow, like if it, if it gets to a 3. 5, it's a good day in that domain. So it's a painful domain. I want to honor that. Like, yeah, that is [00:45:00] real and it hurts. And it doesn't hurt less because several other parts of my life are actually above six and, and thriving.
And so just to give that example, I think about a time in my life when I was going through cancer where multiple domains Were like, finances, physical health, career, trying to keep together a private practice, all these domains were like in distress. And the friend domain was just freaky rich. It was just like, Oh, I would just add such gratitude around that.
So a lot of domains in that time of life, it was. Below a five, but the, the upside was the friendships were just so beautiful and good. So I guess. I want to take away the illusion that thriving means everything is in the positive. [00:46:00]
Katherine: Yeah. As we wrap up, if someone is listening to this and they're like, Okay, I think I'm curling out of that survival, and I'm, you know, my head's kind of coming up and I'm able to just maybe see a little bit of sunshine.
What, what are some recommendations, resources that you would recommend to that person to start moving towards coming out of that survival space?
Connie: One of the first things I can think of, and there again, I don't want this to be triggering because it can have some baggage with it, but this is brain science. This is not religion. And that is gratitude. I think reinforcement of what is actually going well. First of all, to allow validation for all the stuff that's hurting, like, we have this Western mindset that it's got to be one cancels [00:47:00] out the other.
It's both and, that's life. But to go with gratitude, no shoulds here, what should I be grateful for? Get that out of your head. But what are you actually grateful for and if you're moving toward that thriving, I think that can really reinforce it I have a practice every morning of writing anywhere from six to ten things that i'm thankful for right then no shoulds That's the big rule.
Should I be grateful for that? If I have to ask the question, it's not going on the list like So, no, but what am I actually, and some days that means I am actually grateful for a warm house. It's supposed to have a cold snap here in the Northwest over the next couple of days. And I'm like, okay, I actually am grateful for this warm house.
Great. So to, to keep facilitating that, that's one of the first things that comes to mind. And voicing those neural pathways, a traumatized brain has deeply rutted, [00:48:00] painful and negative neural pathways. It just has such, there's such ruts of just the anxiety of waiting for the next shoe to fall, to, to, for the next bomb to go off, and to start saying, I'm going to reinforce.
We're not getting rid of the risk of hard things happening, it's real. But to say, actually at the same time, these positive things are very true. They're just as true as the negative. This is a little quote fight I get in with my clients sometimes. Okay, it's not a fight. But to say, you know, you're saying all this negative is true.
I agree, it is. And even the possibilities of negative are the truth. I can't say that wouldn't happen. But what about all the positive as well? It's an integrating of those rather than it's not Pollyanna. It's not rose colored glasses. It's an integrating [00:49:00] of actual reality and our brains say, Nope, only the negative is true.
And I'm like, let's challenge that because that eventually becomes unhelpful. For our brains, and so somehow reinforcing telling people about the positive, the ones who are also validating the negative, not ones who are pushing you,
Katherine: you're going to celebrate with you and can hold the both
Connie: hand with you.
Exactly, without toxic positivity, we do not want that, but so to keep moving there, I think social, you know, we talked about the challenges of. Friendships and community both of those. And I think those are a little different because you can have really good individual friendships without a full sense of robust community.
Yeah, but those things help reinforce positive brain function. I mean, we just do better. unisolated. We do better connected with other humans. And so those are some, and there again, be gentle, [00:50:00] take time. It's just not going to happen overnight. And that's, it's a sometimes grueling road back, but worth it.
It's worth the time and effort to say, Okay, well that friendship didn't go exactly like I wanted. I'm going to keep trying to create and develop positive connections. And I think also we're talking about spiritual, you cannot push this, but I want to give hope. I'm 30 years down. And so I feel like I have this perspective and I started what they called deconstructing 20 years ago.
I didn't know what was happening to me, my spiritual life, my brain, nobody had a name for it back then. I was just freaking out going, I'm pulling back, I'm pulling back. Is this bad? Oh my gosh, am I going to hell? Ah, you know, and I started. Questioning deeply all this stuff. So I've been on this process a long time and there are months and years that you are going to live in limbo in that in, and it's, it is [00:51:00] so damn uncomfortable.
It is. It is so uncomfortable and it is so essential that you do not rush through it. Yes, cut the process short. Yeah, but let me say sit with it in integrity you do finally come out on the other side not not with certainty I don't think certainty, but I think I can say with some solid ground to stand on I think that's a better way to put it just personally whatever that is for you you start If you don't circumvent the process, if you don't, you know, truncate the process, then you can move on eventually to go, Oh, I think I'm finding some solid ground.
For me, that was years of limbo. It was unpleasant. It isn't for everybody. My brain works slower. It had several decades to rewrite. So it took a long time, but it was so worth it to say, no, you are, there's hope for [00:52:00] some solid ground existentially slash spiritually, not they're going to, I'm not, I'm not even interested in certainty anymore but a certain definition of who I am and how I relate to life in the divine.
Katherine: Absolutely. Absolutely. Oh, I feel like this, this conversation has been kind of like a, it feels like a little pep talk. I feel inspired and yeah, just, encouraged. And I want this episode to end January spiritual abuse awareness month as just kind of like hope, but not hope of trying to put pressure on anyone to be here, but just to say.
One day, one day, you're gonna be able to laugh again. One day, this limbo, five years, ten years, whatever, you're gonna look back and it's gonna be over, like this part will be over, or this, this, this. Season of
Connie: this part will be over. [00:53:00] Yes, exactly.
Katherine: Right. Yes. This has been so wonderful. I always, always enjoy talking to you as
Connie: Catherine.
Yes.
Katherine: And the end of the episode, let folks know how to get in touch with you or find. Stuff that you are, you are working on.
Connie: Yes. So let me get my book out. So I remember the exact title. The title traumatized by spiritual abuse, courage, hope and freedom for survivors. That's it. And then another subtitle is discover the cultures and systems of religious abuse and reclaim your personal power.
So that's on the front of the book. That gives a bit, a bit of a Idea a range of what is in the book and get it on Amazon. So Connie Baker my website has almost. Everything you need on there Connie A. Baker, C O N N I E A as in Ann, my middle name, then baker, B A K E R dot com, Connie A. Baker dot com.
It's got resources, videos, [00:54:00] probably has this podcast, a podcast I was on before with you. So, resources for people to listen to or look up and, yeah, I think those are the main I'm I'm on Facebook. Come on. Oh, I do have here. This is important. I do have a group of probably I think it's around right above 1000 people right now and online private.
Yeah, I didn't. Oh, good. Yeah. And and I post regularly. And just to right now I'm giving a lot of questions for people to process their story. So that is overcoming Yeah, yeah, yeah. Overcoming religious abuse community. And that's on Facebook and I'm also on Instagram and Connie a baker is usually the handles on those to
Katherine: find it.
Yes. All right. Thank you so much. I will link as many things as possible in the show notes for folks. And thank you so much for being here and
Connie: always, always a privilege. Thank you, Catherine. Thank you.
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Julia and Jeremiah from the Sexvangelicals podcast (a podcast for providing the sex education the church didnât want you to have) join Uncertain podcast to discuss how Purity Culture can impact men.
Some topics addressed in this episode:Erectile Disfunction
Shame around sex
Sexual Agression
Gender Binaries
Check out two of the Sexvangelicals' episodes featuring Uncertainâs host Katherine Spearing:
Episode #53: Kicking Off the New Year with Spiritual Abuse: How to Leave a Controlling Family Environment, with Katherine Spearing
Episode #54: Kicking Off the New Year with Spiritual Abuse: How Romantic Comedies Can Reinforce the Worst Parts of Evangelical Culture, with Katherine Spearing
Julia Postema and Jeremiah Gibson are the co-hosts of the podcast Sexvangelicals: The Sex Education the Church Didn't Want You to Have. They are both Boston-based licensed psychotherapists and certified sex therapists who work with clients in Massachusetts. They currently live in Utrecht, The Netherlands. They specialize in helping couples with negative religious backgrounds discover sexuality that works for their partnership. They enjoy traveling to places that tend to fly under the radar, long-distance hiking, cooking very spicy food, unexpected conversations, and introverted days filled with reading and drinking fancy tea.Socials:
Instagram and Threads: @sexvangelicals
Website: www.sexvangelicals.com
Substack (Relationship 101): sexvangelicals.substack.com
Transcript is unedited for typos or misspellings
Katherine: [00:00:00] Hello. How are you?
Julia: Good. We're excited.
Katherine: Yes. It is morning where I am, or early, early, early afternoon, and then it is evening where you all are. I know. So, thanks for giving up your Saturday night.
I know you would. Probably normally be out wildly partying,
Jeremiah: right? Wildly. The wildest
Julia: of parties.
Katherine: You in the Netherlands.
Jeremiah: That's right. Hanging out with windmills and eating a bunch of cheese.
Julia: Today is Sinterklaas and so I have heard that it is a chaotic time to be out. So this is a good day to be inside.
We've got tea. It is raining outside. So this is actually a cozy and a Perfect way to send Saturday night. I love
Katherine: it. I am so excited to be able to talk to you. I love, I love y'all's podcast episodes. I have recommended them to, I mostly recommend them to friends of mine who are recently [00:01:00] divorced and first exploring.
All of the things that they were not allowed to explore pre evangelical marriage. And and so that's a, that's a recommendation y'all are a recommendation that I pass around to some folks. I love your intro. My favorite part about your, your. Podcast episode for listeners is how you, you kind of interview each other and chat like before your episodes, those, those are always really,
Jeremiah: yes, absolutely.
And we do talk about divorce a lot on our podcast. So, that is unfortunately a part of our story and, and, and how we've come into how we've come into recognizing the impact of purity culture on relationships, so. Is that a part
Katherine: of both of your stories?
Julia: It is. Yeah. We are both we are both divorced.
Katherine: All right. And then, did you all get into doing what you do as sex and relationship therapy post [00:02:00] evangelicalism? Our post? These experiences or was this something that came up before, were you already working in this?
Jeremiah:
So I, a little bit of both for me. So, I joke with people, except it's not a joke, that I did my first couples therapy session when I was 12.
And listeners, you can... Put some of the pieces together. I, so, so I've known for some time that that I wanted to be a couples therapist. Huh. And in the field of psychotherapy there's a specific license for marriage and family therapy.
My license is in marriage and family therapy. And a lot of the marriage and family therapy schools are either at these big kind of research schools. So Ohio state has a big program where Julia went Michigan state has one or they're at Christian schools because the history of couples therapy and marriage family [00:03:00] of the history of couples therapy.
The history of marriage therapy is pretty closely linked to the Christian community. In fact, our professional organization split in the seventies from the California organization because religious people, the, the pastors spiritual directors in the seventies said like, no, like what's happening in California is too liberal, is too progressive.
Let's, let's talk about marriage and let's talk about marriage from the perspective of heteronormativity. And this is. A little bit before James Dobson starts taking over with, with focus on the family, but, but, but it's all connected to that. So. So my graduate program at Abilene Christian University is a Christian university.
But interestingly, that was, I would say, probably the beginning of my deconstruction process too. Yeah. Because marriage and family therapy at its root is systems theory. So this idea that everything is interconnected you know, I can't succeed unless you [00:04:00] succeed. We, we talk about this through, through Desmond Tutu's work.
And so, so I actually begin realizing, oh, like the church, a lot of the Christian stuff, like, like, isn't really making sense. It's clashing with systems theory. The system stuff makes a lot more sense to me. It connects. The problem is that in my twenties, I am employed by churches. Yeah. I'm, I'm a music my first career is through music ministry.
And when I left Texas moved to Boston and very quickly get hired by a church to do music ministry. And so a lot of my thirties, then my early thirties is trying to figure out how to do a systems work. I later discovered sex therapy through, through my office. How to be a sexual health professional and to be a minister at the same time.
And I thought I could pull both of them off. The church that I was in worked at claimed to be really [00:05:00] progressive. At the end of the day, I ended up getting fired. I ended up talking about sex therapy too much, made the wrong people uncomfortable, and I get the axe. Oh no! So I end up getting kicked out of Christianity, more so than leaving and choosing not to return to organized religion.
Yeah, these
Katherine: two things are very connected in your story, like you're very much and your vocation and your deconstruction are, are very entwined.
Jeremiah: Absolutely.
Julia: Yeah. Minor entwined but in a different way. Catherine when we were interviewing you, you had mentioned something that I could relate to which is the socialization for women to be some sort of caretakers within.
fundamentalist, and other evangelical circles. Being a therapist is very much a nurturing type of career. The other career options I had considered were [00:06:00] teaching and nursing, also stereotypically nurturing, stereotypically associated with Christianity. So, I don't know if I would have become a therapist.
Had I not grown up in the environment that I did. What a question, right? Right! Ultimately, I love it most of the time, but sex therapy was deeply connected to my deconstruction process. I got married young, at the age of 22. I am divorced and when I got married my world crumbled because I had learned that getting married, getting married young was a rite of passage into adulthood, would be the sign of my worth as a human being, and would ultimately be the way that I could access the sexuality that had been denied to me.
And when I got married and I hated sex, when I got married and I didn't experience the desire from my husband that I was told would be [00:07:00] present all the time, because all men ever think about is sex, which I'm sure we'll come back to in this episode. My sense of identity shattered. My sense of identity was always in my purity as a woman, in my ability to perform my gender role, and in being a desirable person, particularly sexually.
So I became very distressed and my first years married were awful for me, even though I didn't understand exactly what was happening. Yeah. I did, two years after getting married, find a phenomenal sex therapist in Boston. I will always give Nancy McGrath a huge amount of credit for my individual and relational growth.
She was an amazing sex therapist, an amazing couples therapist. And my ex husband and I made a lot of progress, even though we did choose to get married. And just to get divorced. Yes. Yes. Even though my ex husband and I choose to got [00:08:00] divorced, choose to get divorced. And as I was continuing to grow, as I was continuing to heal, my therapist said, I was already a practicing therapist.
She said, if you decided to become a sex therapist, you would be a great sex therapist. And that was such an affirming and healing moment for me in my sex therapy training. I admitted to myself and my therapist for the first time that I didn't want to be married. And so sex therapy training was really like the last Jenga piece that caused the tower to shatter.
I wasn't an active member of a religious community when I participated in sex therapy training, but I still was. Connected to the religious world. And I was still married to my ex husband. And because I was married to a Christian man, I had status in my family system and I had status in all kinds of other systems.
And then I lost my status within my family. [00:09:00] I lost my status within my community. My divorce was fodder for gossip at a funeral and becoming a sex therapist and ultimately getting divorced was what broke my connection to that world.
Katherine: Woo! Goodness. Goodness. So this is somewhat of a rhetorical question that I know the answer to, but I still want to hear your answer.
How interconnected is sex? To personhood and relational dynamics itself. How often do you see that connection?
Jeremiah: Strongly. Strongly. Well, so, so there's two, two categories of that. In religious communities, absolutely strongly. We, we could talk maybe about the, the, the professional kind of non religious universal relationship about that later, but in the religious context very strongly,
Julia: yeah.
And I would say outside of religious contexts, [00:10:00] yes, but in a different way. So, when my, when I say that my sense of self crumbled after getting married, a big piece of that was sexuality. And so... I will sometimes have folks come to sex therapy in similar positions as me, and the couple might say something like, but it's just sex, and we still love each other, and I have a good life in all these kinds of ways, but it's not just sex for anyone.
Sex is never just sex for anyone, but especially if you grow up in an adverse or religiously abusive context, sex is actually everything. And I'm not joking when I say everything. So if you get married and sex is painful physically or emotionally or relationally, that can have massive consequences in all areas of your life.
Katherine: Right. Mm. So when you are a sex therapist and folks come to you for difficulties and [00:11:00] challenges within their sex life, very regularly, there's more happening and in their lives and in their relationships. Absolutely.
Jeremiah: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so there's a couple of things that, that come up one. Sex isn't talked about in a lot of, in a lot of couples, obviously it's not talked about at all in religious couples.
Sex with each other, like they don't talk about it. That's right, that's right. Yes, yes, the church talks a lot a lot about sex. But the church doesn't give partners the tools or the skills to be able to talk about sexuality with each other. And if they do it's almost exclusively from the perspective of quantity, meaning how much do you want to have it?
Yes. And from the perspective of performing gender roles where men are expected to have high volumes of sexual desire, interest, and women are expected to be asexual yet to conform to the, the needs of male partners.[00:12:00] The second way that, that this shows up is around just in, in general,, if a couple doesn't have the skills and resources to talk about sexuality, what else do they not have the skills and resources to talk about?
Katherine: Right.
Julia: Yeah. A whole lot of other things. That's right. Money, or child rearing, or household management. How to
Jeremiah: deal with families of origin. So a lot of stuff gets avoided, and there's a lot of conflict avoidance that we find. And the second thing is that for the couples who are able to talk about sex and sexuality, there's a lot of variance regarding sex.
Sex can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. Culturally speaking, sex is often thought of as a euphemism for intercourse.
Julia: Vaginally penetrative intercourse. That is
Jeremiah: correct. Yes. But what Julia, you and I talk about is that there's a lot of different ways that bodies can connect.
Sometimes [00:13:00] involving a vaginal intercourse, sometimes not involving vaginal intercourse. Let's talk about all of it and let's talk about all of it from the perspective of like what kinds of touch do you want? And then also, how do you want that touch to happen? How do you, what do you need before your body gets the touch that it wants?
There's a lot of different variables that Julia, you and I talk about, and that's on an individual level. And in couple therapy, of course, there's two people. So the ways that I go about sex are going to be different Julie from the ways that you go about sex. And, and then the work is, is how do we then make how do we make arrangements?
How do we make agreements about? How to do sex, how to do anything, but for the sake of this conversation, how to do sex in a pleasurable, in a pleasurable way for both people. Yeah.
Katherine: Yeah. So many, I'm like, as y'all are talking, I'm like, question, question, question, question, question, question. I
Julia: know, that happens to me too.
I was telling Jeremiah after our interview with [00:14:00] you and we took a bathroom break, I was like, I had 20 more questions to ask for
Katherine: each episode. Well that just means that we have a podcasting relationship and we will do more episodes together in the future. This is the one, one, one, one interview I've already decided five minutes in.
One interview is not enough. But one of the things that I wanted to focus on for this specific, this specific episode there is so much, and this is even just for me personally so much, uploaded A literature right now about how purity culture impacts women and women in relationships and what that does to marriages and dating and recovery after purity culture.
I this is just, you know, a regular topic of conversation with my between myself and my peers. I was in a, I'm in a, like a [00:15:00] sort of deconstruction group. I call us the Renegades. And we met a couple Saturday nights ago and everyone's at different phases in their, their deconstruction.
They're also at different phases in their sexuality and their sexuality exploration. And I just asked them just like a very, like, simple question of like, what would have been different? If you had been raised with like the full gamut of the feast in front of you and like that was the class that you got in Sunday school, as opposed to don't have sex.
And then that's the end of it. And then also just for the subject of our conversation too, I asked them very specifically about what, so in evangelicalism, It's cisgender binaries of male and female, and you and there's no other category. And so I asked them very specifically, how did that impact you and this was all people who these are all [00:16:00] people who identify as, as, as female, and then how intricately connected that binary that gender binary is to this messaging.
And so a question for you all when you meet with couples that come out of evangelicalism, what role does that binary play? In your conversations and, and for good or ill.
Jeremiah: Sure. I'll start. And then I'm curious about how you'd answer that too. Again, a lot of folks coming out of evangelical systems don't have the relationship skills of the negotiation skills to figure out how to navigate one, how to navigate differences and to how to make decisions about a relationship based on their own preferences.
So in the absence of that, they rely on gender roles. They rely on the performance of gender roles to [00:17:00] create expectations for, say, how administration gets done, how sex gets done, how parenting gets done, and there's a lot of resentment that is, that is there because Even though these things, these positions were assumed there weren't overt conversations about how to how to enact these you know, women and men both, like, they, they don't make verbal agreements to each other in the, in these contexts about Well, hey as, as a female partner, I absolutely want to do this particular thing as a male partner.
I absolutely want to do these things. It's you should do these things. Yes. And any conversation that happens centers around the should. Like you
Katherine: should do these things, not I would prefer that I do. That's right. Okay. Right. Absolutely. So one of the
Jeremiah: things, Julia, you and I do with with regards to the binary is we do whatever we can to get rid of it.
Katherine: I love that.
Jeremiah: Yeah, [00:18:00] how would you answer that? I would
Julia: agree with that. I'm sure that I'll have more to say as Katherine keeps asking questions, but the first part is recognizing What we learned about gender and how that has then impacted the relationship and what are the structures and systems and patterns that the couple falls back to.
And if anyone has ever gone sledding in the winter, you know that once you've got a path that's slick, it's really hard to set a new path. So even if, like Jeremiah said, the gender roles are causing some resentment. I imagine that my ex husband probably developed some resentment around what gender role looked like for him.
I had my own resentment around what that looked like for me. We didn't get ahead of the resentment by talking about it and negotiating it until it was too late. And even though that wasn't working for either one of us, it [00:19:00] was like a very slick... path down a sledding hill. And if you want something different, you've got to take that sled, move it to a new part of the hill, put it in snow that hasn't been down, and you've got to do a lot of hard work to create a new path that works.
Katherine: Yes, absolutely. And it sounds like from both of your stories that sometimes that new path is a new relationship.
Julia: Yes.
Jeremiah: Sometimes. In our case, yes.
Julia: Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah. Sometimes it is a new relationship. Sometimes it is hard work with a current partner. And sometimes it is... Being a person who is partnered with multiple people or being a person who is dating and not partnered.
Mm-Hmm. So it can look all different kinds of ways. When we talk about our podcast having a relational bent what we mean is that we live in relationships with all kinds of people. Mm-Hmm. That might mean [00:20:00] starting a new path on a new hill and your family's on another hill and they're like, you abandoned us.
Katherine: What's going on? Yes. Yes. Absolutely. No, I love that. I love that. And that, that expands sexuality and relationships in general, because even, even if you have this dynamic within this couple, like our sexuality impacts how we interact with everyone. It's not just our intimate partner. And I've really enjoyed it.
My. deconstruction journey, learning about that because it just expands possibilities and, and just, it makes it just beautiful and vibrant. And like, there's so much here and, and so very sad and also very angry at how narrow. The teaching that I received was and how very specific and gendered it was and, so sad.
And then also just like, it's a [00:21:00] fucking lie. And yet. The we'll get in all of this, but just like the, the, the conservative agenda behind that lie and unpacking that as well. And, and having that just opportunity to grieve the opportunities that I was denied. And I know that's a part of me.
So many people's journeys of just like grieve, grieving this, this loss that happened. How did that play out for both of you?
Julia: The grief part or a different
Katherine: part? Great. Yeah. Just the grieving. If, if that was a part of your journey.
Jeremiah: Oh, I think it still is a part of our journey. Yeah. I think you and I both make reference.
I'm trying to remember the last time you and I both made references to our former partners. It's been within the last week. . And, and reflecting about the sadness of, of, of painful things that, that we received. Even painful things that we said missed [00:22:00] opportunities. Mm-Hmm. To to explore and, and to have conversations that, that we didn't get the chance to have.
Mm-Hmm. that the church didn't want us to have. Mm-Hmm. . So, yeah. Yeah, that comes up quite a bit. Yeah.
Julia: I I haven't even mentioned this to Jeremiah yet, but. Something that I say when I talk about getting divorced is that my ex husband is a really phenomenal human being. And I am, I am sad that the education neither of us received, probably to a large, large part, impacted our decision to get divorced.
I am rarely on social media because it is too overwhelming for me. However, I saw that my ex husband recently celebrated his two year anniversary to his new wife. And I imagine that he is an even better partner, probably, than he was with me. Not because he wasn't a good partner to me, [00:23:00] but because he has had life to grow and evolve and learn.
And... I am very happy that he is in a partnership that seems to be really beautiful for him. And I am still, I'm still really sad. I'm sad that that relationship ended. I'm sad about the ways that I contributed to hurt. I am sad about the ways that I was hurt. And I know that I will probably think about my ex spouse to some degree.
Daily or often for the rest of my life.
Katherine: Yeah. Yeah. Because it, it, it doesn't just go away. Deca, deconstructing and rewiring those sled paths. It's not just a, like a one and done thing. Right.
Jeremiah: Well, and it also happens while Julia, you and I are also figuring out our relationship and experiencing these really beautiful [00:24:00] moments that we have.
And. Kind of hashing out how we want to do different things. Grief doesn't happen in this, like, process where you take a pause from life and you go off and, and, and you grieve for an extended amount of time. Like, grief happens in the midst of these concurrent processes that, that are happening in a person's life.
And, and that, that makes it even more
Julia: challenging. Yeah. And I can't grieve the end of my marriage without ultimately grieving The systems that raised me, the systems that conditioned if conditioned early marriage, the systems that taught me about what dating and marriage looked like. So whenever I consider my ex husband, whenever I consider the pain or the joy that we experienced, I, I'm unable to separate that from the lack of relational and sexual health education.
From the religious systems in my life. Yes. [00:25:00] Yes.
Katherine: And how just so entwined those two things are and and just the reality of like those, those indentions in the snow are going to be so much more defined when it's coming from. religious space. This is what God wants from you. This is what requires from you.
And then everything in that system upholds that and supports it. And these things are very deeply embedded into us and is the soup that we swim in. And so I'm really excited to just get into some practical stuff and maybe provide a little bit of a resource for folks. I would like to concentrate our our conversation on specifically.
How purity culture impacts men in, in these relationships. And I, I will, we'll, we'll just start with the, with the. Typical trajectory. How, how does does purity culture show up and impact men in dating relationships?
Julia: Yeah, [00:26:00] something that I say on almost every podcast is that one of the biggest double binds or mind fucks that men experience in evangelical and other Christian cultures is that they are They're sexual aggressors, and that is the way that God made them, and they are supposed to, they should lean into that, and at the same time, that is part of their evil base nature, and they have to fight it.
Mm hmm. That is. An impossible, impossible place to live to be told that you've got to lean in and embrace this, but that also this is the most debased part of who you are and that shows up in a myriad of contexts.
Katherine: Do you feel like. Men tend to migrate towards one or the [00:27:00] other because of that double bind.
Julia: That's a good question. Good question. I would say that I've noticed men...
Jeremiah: I have a
Julia: way of answering that. I've got an idea, but you go first because I'm still formulating it.
Jeremiah: I would say that... Men who are interested in men who are interested in kind of reinforcing the gender hierarchies tend to lean more into kind of the Kind of the ownership of sexuality and, and then also the conflict in that, that, that can come from from
advocating for that. I would say that men who want more egalitarian relationships. Especially in, in opposite sex context. I think that those are men who tend to struggle with that that the double bind Julia, that you're referring to a little bit [00:28:00] more and as a result 10, those relationships tend to have a little bit more avoidance to them.
That's anecdotal. I don't know if that, I don't have any research to support that. I would
Julia: say my anecdotal experience is mostly similar and I really appreciate the theme of this episode because I, I work with a lot of couples, but I also, for probably lots of different reasons, have many individual male clients between the ages of like 25 to 37.
So we talk about this. a lot. And the really challenging part is that the gender binaries that we've described means that the misogyny reinforces the, or the, sorry, the the misandry towards men that they are sexual monsters that reinforces the misogyny and the sexism. And [00:29:00] then the misogyny continues to perpetuate this patriarchal pattern.
Which is such an awful systemic issue. Yeah. Yeah. And so often the misandry and the misogyny are just like fucking having this orgasm together. Sadly. What
Jeremiah: is the image of the orgasm? Like
Katherine: they're feeding each other. Yeah. Satisfying
Julia: each other. Right, and so I absolutely want to keep on the topic that you're describing, and I've been reflecting quite a bit on like specific impacts for men, and I think we have to still acknowledge at the beginning that all of the negative consequences towards men Still continue to hurt the entire relational structure and still continue to [00:30:00] prop up the, the sexist and misogynist norms of the patriarchy.
Jeremiah: Can I give an example about that that doesn't involve sex? Sure, yeah, yeah. So, I'm seven and Enneagram? No, no, no. Age 7. Enneagram 3. Oh,
Katherine: okay. Oh, oh, sorry. You're about to tell a story. Yes. Started when you were 7.
Jeremiah: Yes, yes. So, I'm 7 years old.
Julia: I knew where that was going, but it was confusing.
Jeremiah: I'm 7 years old.
And I am at a part of of a Bible study that a few of my families do on Wednesday nights, because heaven forbid, we don't have some sort of a church service two to three times a week. And at this particular group from time to time, I would be I would be the only boy that was there, only penis owner that was there.
So my dad had to work or that was at least his excuse for, for not showing up. [00:31:00] I made a similar excuse. So some of the other men had to, had to work. So it was the mom's wives all the kids were little girls and me. And so at seven, I remember the women in the church and this group saying, it's a devotional time at Jeremiah because you're the boy you have to lead the songs.
Okay. So little seven year old me like leads a song. Can you do an example of your accent? Oh, so I grew up in Texas. I had a. Thick southern accents, very flat vowels. My name had three syllables on it. Sometimes it had two syllables, Jerma. But, then they say, okay, well, you have to leave the scripture.
You have to lead the prayer. And, you know, I know that I am not the only boy who has been in that [00:32:00] experience who learned early on that, that men and women look to boys to provide quote leadership and running shit. And that's something that is still to this day, something that. I, I make the assumption that people will look to me.
Men and women will look to me to run things. I step into leadership roles and, and a lot of my healing work has been giving myself permission to, to, to step out of that. And, and, and I'm good at it. I, I think that I have I enjoy being in control more than I think sometimes I would like to admit, I've also taught you and I've both actually taught Julia with plenty of men who have had similar experiences and don't want any part of that.
Yeah. Right. And, and play those roles both out of a sense of obligation to the system and also do so in a way that's antithetical to their own personality traits and to their preferences. They'd much rather play a more passive role, just kind of sit [00:33:00] back, kind of watch the world kind of do its thing.
And, and, and they don't know what to do. We actually had an interview quite recently on our podcast with, with a couple of men actually for, for whom that was true. So yeah, so, so the expectation then that men are not just like sexual monsters or sexual initiators, but are initiators of any kind of process with, with the exception of domestic administrative processes, which is a whole other conversation we can get into in a bit.
Except for cooking and cleaning. Yeah, right. And mending the stockings. Right, right. But yeah, that's, that's, that's a lot of pressure. That is a lot of pressure. That, that men get put on and it also, it also discourages men from moving into collaborative spaces. Hmm. This is something you and I actually
Katherine: May I, may I pause here for just one [00:34:00] moment because one of the things that I have noticed in this, in the space that I work in the spiritual abuse realm.
Is that same thing we were talking about a podcast earlier, talking on our interview earlier about art and being ingrained with this mistrust of art. I also believe men get ingrained with this mistrust of women and how I, my work is predominantly women coming to me one because women are. You know, it's more acceptable for women to look for help and to want to collaborate one.
And then two, it's a woman run organization, like we have one male board member, but other than that, like, it is run by women, and they're not going to migrate. And I know this because I watched them migrate to the Wade Mullins and the other male leaders and and not migrate to the women, because it's still just [00:35:00] ingrained into.
The physique. Yeah,
Jeremiah: I actually think that Catherine that that's another double bind is that I agree with you that men that that this system that we're talking about you know, where Men are expected to be in leadership positions. Women from time to time reinforce that. And there's also plenty of women that are like, Hey, no, this doesn't work for me.
And then figuring out how to navigate those differences. I think that that's right, that that there are a lot of men who mistrust women and simultaneously. I don't think that men really trust men any better either. And I think that this is actually true, Julie, with what you're talking about with your, your clients.
Men are much more likely to seek an individual female sex therapist for individual therapy than they are to seek an individual male for individual therapy.
Julia: Really? Absolutely. But, but I want to qualify something that you said. I think you said that [00:36:00] men are equally less likely to trust other men. I would say men.
might be unwilling to trust men when it comes to kind of emotional issues because men are far more likely to trust men in more stereotypical leadership positions. But in terms of like the caretaking therapy to some degree has a caretaking element to it. And so I think that men Are uncomfortable talking about sex in general.
Many people are. That's not a misandrist comment. And I think it can be easier for individual men to talk to a woman about sex than a man. I don't know if seeking a female therapist for couples or family therapy is as oriented. Not for couples and family therapy. But I think that. They're going to go
Katherine: to a man.
Julia: Right. Because, because, because of what you're describing, Catherine, around like trusting men in these [00:37:00] forward facing leadership positions in a family or couples therapy is more forward facing, so men are more quote unquote reliable. But if it's an individual context in which. There's the assumption that emotional nurture might be more a part of it.
I think that men could be more prone to seeking a woman, just to seek a woman. But all of this goes back to Catherine, exactly what you're describing around men needing to be in over leadership positions. And Jeremiah, you use the word passive growing up in my community. Passive was used as derogatory.
Yeah. And that a passive man was not a man. Right. So books like Wild at Heart and pour into my community every man Battle to fight, beauty to save. Yeah. Yeah. Every everyman's battle was popular in my community and it was all about, [00:38:00] men being assertive at best, aggressive, dominant, violent at worst, and I'm even thinking about, like, my dad, and my dad is not a particularly dominant person.
If my parents were out of their religious system, I would probably ask my dad what that was like because I wonder if it was really hard to be in a system in which you were told that you had to be so overtly dominant when that wasn't part of your nature.
Katherine: Yeah, I'm thinking about the women that I met with.
That I referred to earlier and, and they just said how most of their relationships sort of defaulted into a functionally egalitarian relationship while they still espoused complimentary and they just [00:39:00] didn't tell anybody. I think
Julia: that's, I think that's how my parents marriage operates. And I think that's how
Jeremiah: my ex's parents.
Julia: Many relationships operate. Yeah.
Jeremiah: Oh, yeah. Hmm. That would be interesting to do research
Julia: on. Just a clarifying
Katherine: question about men seeking out a female sex therapist, more likely to seek out a female sex therapist. Is it possible that there's some shame? In that too of they're not going to talk to another man to admit that they struggle.
Yes.
Julia: I can give a great example. So I had a male client and I've had several iterations of this. And he came to therapy seeking help for quote unquote, erectile dysfunction. Diagnostic language around sexual health is so damaging to men and women. So I would never use that language of erectile dysfunction, but that was his language to me.
That's why I'm using it. what I would say is that [00:40:00] sexuality had some challenges for him. And one of those challenges was having the erections that he wanted to have. So we tried to get away from diagnostic language as much as possible, but. He told me that it would be one of the most shaming things possible to have a conversation with another male about about sexual health in general, particularly because men learn in and outside of religious structures that part of sexual dominance is having a specific type of erection in a specific kind of way.
And that is not how erections work for many, if not all people. We could have a whole con, a whole longer conversation about erections and what men learn about their penises and what they learn about erections. It might be even worthwhile later in our conversation, but [00:41:00] over time, I really encouraged this client to talk to some of his male friends about sexuality and what was working and not working for him.
And one day he came into therapy and he was like, Julia. I had a conversation with one of my male friends about sex, and it was one of the most meaningful conversations that I've ever had. And If more men talked with each other about sexuality in non toxic, dominant ways, I believe that would be massively healing towards humanity in general, regardless of gender.
If the shame was stopping him.
Katherine: Yeah, and I just think about how... So much of the sexual conversations for men was accountability oriented and like, how are you guarding your eyes? And how are you guarding your heart? And, you know, you know, documenting how often you masturbate and all of these like [00:42:00] very shaming?
So I can see that being so just so damaging for it
Julia: is. And it's so it can I say one other thing about this. It's really interesting because in another conversation, the three of us talked about how the church is not as counter cultural as they think they are.
But one of the main themes is this idea of like, You. In these cases, like, the humanity of women being fairly non existent, so in secular world, that means you just keep track of how many women you have sex with, and like, they are a number to you, and you want to get as high as possible, and then Catherine, what you're describing, when men are told to, you know, document how time, how many times they masturbate and then confess to another man and like not look at another woman.
It's still like this idea of like women being objects. We had a conversation several podcasts [00:43:00] ago with our friends. Sarah and... Jake. Yeah. And, and Jake was describing about, you know, going to Six Flags as a youth group. And it's like, there's gonna be a lot of boobs out there.
They wouldn't have said it that way. And it's like, just avoid the boobs. Like, and, and without any conversation that these are 13 to 16 year old girls. They are not walk Sets of boobs. Yeah. But whether they're children, right? Mm-Hmm. . And so, in and outside of these contexts, women are these vessels that you either have to conquer or avoid until you get married.
And you have to document how you're either like dominating or avoiding Mm-hmm. in this really restrictive version of what it means to be a man. And in either context. You are essentially a sexual monster who is either dominating and giving in to the, like, desires of the flesh, or you're working really hard to, like, fight your sin nature, and that makes you a good
Jeremiah: man.
And we have language for [00:44:00] this. Sex addict. Right. So so Joshua Grubbs is a researcher at Bowling Green and he has produced several articles about this that the majority of men who identify as sex addicts also have a high degree of religiosity. Oh and so the idea connected is absolutely so well, and it's, and it's connected back even to like to seven year old Jeremiah too, that, that, that, that the problem must be me.
I am a sexual monster as opposed to men coming together, talking together, Julia, like what you're saying. And talking about the fucked up positions that that, that the fucked up things that men learned about their bodies, the fucked up things that men learned about women's bodies and how we all want to, how we all want to do better in our own relationships, same sex relationships, opposite sex relationships, sexual relationships, non sexual [00:45:00] relationships.
Yeah. And
Katherine: maybe it's not a, and I feel like I've, I've approached it. What was brought into that in a little different perspective through the trauma lens of just like addiction itself, typically, or what we call addiction typically developed out of trauma and religiosity itself typically develops out of trauma and and having and having that you know, stuff ingrained into your mind. It's not like, and, and approaching it like a, a, where you like have all of these steps and you have all of these, you know, accountability things that you're supposed to do, but then you you're not addressing the stuff underneath it and the trauma that is,
Jeremiah: well, and I think that that's right.
And, and I think that. It's one thing to address that trauma in a professional context. I think it's a completely different thing to address that trauma in relationships with other people who've gone through a similar thing. [00:46:00] Yeah. And that's, from my perspective, that's why the relational perspective is so, it's so powerful.
Mm hmm. As the capacity to help, for the sake of our conversations, kind of men get out of some of these double binds and the shame that accompanies that double bind. Mm hmm. In, in, in more meaningful, kind of longer lasting ways. Right.
Julia: Right. And the language around. Addiction also focuses on behavior versus value.
So, so I will always ask clients, what does sex mean, if a person is talking about sex, if a person comes in and says that they are a sexual addict, I will ask what that means. And typically they might say, Well, I masturbate or I watch pornography. And so, so we'll talk, we'll be like, okay, so let's, let's put porn on the side.
Let's put masturbation on the side as a behavior. And let's talk about like what [00:47:00] the values are. I had a really interesting client, former client who was a seminarian. And and he Had reached out to me because he thought that I was a Christian sex therapist, and I explained, I said, I am not. I said, I actually am not a part of any religious communities, but I have an understanding of Christian culture so I work with a lot of folks in this area.
And I think it spoke to volumes of this client that he said, Okay, I'll work with you. with you because typically working with a secular therapist, that's like scary. And it was so interesting because he had a lot of shame around masturbation and he had a lot of shame around pornography. And we had this conversation and I said, okay.
Tell me about what your sexual values are without moralistic language and without behavior language. So he talked about sex being a form of connection, and he talked about sexuality being [00:48:00] sacred, and he talked about a few other values. And I said, that's so interesting. I said, huh, I actually think almost all of the values that you have.
I hold two. And, and then it was the conversation around, okay, so if sex, whether it's with yourself or someone else, if it's a form of connection, like, What does that mean? How can you enact that? If sexuality on your own or with someone else is a sacred thing, like what does that mean? And I think a big piece of work for men in Christian communities is getting out of the behavior obsession, which isn't their fault.
And thinking about the value moving away from the quality of an erection, moving away from whether or not you masturbate and or watch pornography and moving about, like, what are the values that you have around your bodies about gender, about women, about men, and then like rethinking what sexuality can look like.
And
Jeremiah: we talk about this, [00:49:00] Julia, in our series on Sex Evangelicals The Sex Education We Wish We Had in which we talk about the sexual health principles or values from the work of Doug Brown Harvey around consent, non exploitation, conversation about contraceptions and STIs, honesty, shared values, and mutual pleasure.
I love it. Those are the values that we tend to start from. But also, Julia, your question, being able to ask, what are your values as well? Like that and
Katherine: being able to have an opportunity to develop your own values outside of that religious. I want to go back. I want to get into those five things that you just mentioned, but I want to go back and talk about bodies for a minute.
We mentioned that women's bodies were made objects and it's like you're walking instead of boobs like it was it was objectification. And that was how a woman's body was viewed and presented to [00:50:00] men. It was also how we we viewed our own race to kind of your own body is of just like cover up cover up cover up and that was literally cover up cover up cover up and then.
Here's how you use a tampon on your period. And like, that was literally it. And so for men, what are the messages about their bodies that they receive in these communities?
Jeremiah: Men are machines. And, and, and this is both within Christian context and in larger capitalist contexts that men are machines that men are, that all men think about is sex.
That sex is the number one most important thing and that that's what being a good man is about. And that men are meant to compete. Yeah. Mm. And, and compete with other men and also compete with women. Yeah. I, I would argue that ultimately misogyny is a A misappropriation of competition between men [00:51:00] and women as opposed to men taking that energy around some of the injustices that they experience and taking it back to like the larger political and social systems that put them into shit situations.
Yeah.
Julia: It's interesting, Jeremiah, because some of, I don't, I agree with everything that you said. some of what you said isn't necessarily inherent to bodies. Sure. It's about, you know, competition, for example, you use your bodies to compete, but that's more of a concept, I guess. And so I suppose, and I'd be curious.
To hear how the two of you experience this similarly or differently, there wasn't a lot said about the bodies of men in my communities. And when I work with couples, especially hetero couples, women have a lot to say about their bodies and what they learned about their bodies. Men have much less to say about their bodies, at least anecdotally.
And what they do say about their bodies does tend to [00:52:00] revolve around their penises. And I would say that's more from secular culture than religious culture. Although, as we've discussed, both of those things overlap. Actually I'm going to walk that back. The church doesn't talk about erections explicitly.
Implicitly, there's a lot about erections. So if you edit it, you can edit that how you will. But yes, women have a lot. About their bodies that they learn that they can communicate men don't learn as much about their bodies. I
Jeremiah: agree.
Katherine: Yeah, and it makes me think that like what women learn about their bodies is typically oriented around a man.
Or oriented around the reproductive system and having babies, men don't, don't quote unquote need their body for those things. Like they don't, they're conditioned. I don't need my body other than to protect.[00:53:00]
Yeah. Yeah. And, and I remember reading this like super toxic book and the fundamentalist world about why like women need to like submit to men because like women have more power to have Babies. And so if men don't have that power, then they're going to turn into an animal. So they need like the woman to like, keep them from turning into the monster.
Because the woman has this like special power and like birthing babies, very, very toxic book yet. That's it. That's kind of like it in a nutshell
Jeremiah: of and that's what that's that's also a Christian relationship literature in a nutshell. Yeah, I can think of like 13 other metaphors that describe like the very similar process that you were just describing Catherine,
Julia: right?
Well, in going back to the erection piece, and clearly that's on my mind a lot today. When men learn that all they want is [00:54:00] sex, they, the the When they're told that's all they want. Yes, yes, yes, yes. When they are told all they want is sex. Yes. Which, when often they don't that does have some implicit Implications for for the penis and for needing to be physiologically aroused right away.
And so sometimes other men will come in and talk about erectile dysfunction and I'll say, Oh, so you didn't get an erection in 30 seconds of making out or so you had sex with a partner for a longer period of time. And at one point. You lost your erection. Like, where did you learn that that's erectile dysfunction?
Mm hmm. Actually, that's like very normative. Right. Functioning as a human being. But I will say that even though men don't learn as much about their bodies inherently, the implications about their bodies to [00:55:00] sexuality are pretty strong. And revolve
Jeremiah: around the mythology around the penis. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Katherine: Whoa. So, what, what does a man do when they're no longer, like, The penis is not the only thing about them, like where, where does, where does the conversation go? How did they become like a full whole integrated human being? When their penis is no longer the center of their life. Well,
Jeremiah: and that gets back to what I was trying to explain a little bit earlier about.
I think the answer to that question is different. If a man is interested in reproducing complementarian gender hierarchical systems. I think men in those systems with with those needs have no idea what to do and have these existential crises, either over longer periods of time or in these like short term outbursts, types of [00:56:00] control behaviors.
I think men that want. And strive for a more egalitarian context and opposite sex partnerships may have a little bit of an easier time exploring different ways of you know, providing, providing touch engaging in pleasure that, that don't involve, that don't center around their penises. It can
Julia: come with some relief.
Absolutely. Yeah, for sure. I'm thinking about some couples that
Jeremiah: I've worked with. I've experienced that personally speaking.
Julia: Oh, so. Is that okay that I asked him? You're the interviewer. I'm just very curious. No, I am
Katherine: too. I was coming. I was coming right behind you.
Jeremiah: No, Julia. I think, I think that I think that that's one of the sources of freedom that I've experienced in our relationship too.
Like, like I I've shared with you some anxieties that I have around my penis and you've, you've said, Oh, well, that's silly. I don't think that most women don't think that I'm like, Oh, you're right. Oh, the research supports what you're saying. Also, like, I want a more collaborative relationship. I want to be a more collaborative person than, than I was in, in [00:57:00] my marriage.
And so, yeah, I think I've been, I think a sense of relief is, is absolutely correct. I've experienced a lot of that regarding regarding sexuality regarding a lot of elements of our relationship. Very
Katherine: cool. I'm such a great partner. You guys are
Jeremiah: the real MVP of this operation.
Katherine: Ah, I love, I love that. Segueing into some of your, your five, your five things.
And also because this was probably one of the first episodes I listened to from, From you all. And I learned a lot about it. The message of consent, which I never learned until like very, very recently within the past few years and, and have friends. Who were married very young, and are now, you know, divorced and exploring things outside of it and I am having to teach them about consent, because it [00:58:00] was never a part of their upbringing, either and like, No, actually what that man just did to you was, was not consent and like sending them the YouTube video about the tea and tea and consent, tea and consent and like, you are allowed to say, No, and they should be looking for an enthusiastic.
Yes. And, and how does that, I know how that like shows up for women and what, and the impact that that has on women, what is the impact that that has on men in sexuality? Well,
Jeremiah: first of all, consent is a relational process. Consent is a dialogue. And part of. The narratives of masculinity is that men by being the gender and opposite sex couples by being the gender that has a higher quote sex drive should also be the initiators and that [00:59:00] initiation is so if, if initiation is expected by men If initiation is accepted to be done by men, if there's an assumption that men have higher sex drives, that women don't have high sex drives like this is setting up a recipe for some really harmful sexual experiences both in terms of, of.
emotional damage that can happen through a lack of communication, lack of overt consent, and also through significant emotional, physical, psychological damage from men who overtly exploit that to abuse women. So I would, I, I, I would start there that I talked on the podcast about what happened when I in my sex therapy training, the first class that we took was around the, the six sexual health principles that I mentioned and, and, and about consent and my response leaving that was, oh, fuck, I [01:00:00] am 33 years old.
I have never had this conversation and I have been. engaged in a 14 year sexual relationship that has not been particularly dialogical. Yeah. And there's reasons for that that we can talk about maybe in another context, but, but, but part of that is rooted in these expectations that both my partner and I had that, or my ex and I had that, I am the one that has a higher sex drive that it should be initiating sex.
And, and, and my partner as, as a woman should be the recipient and, and, and even be even be asexual. And so according to that, I have conversations which is super, super damaging. And so I had, I came back. From a class. I talked with my ex about this. Hey, we need to talk. I am so sorry that we have been having these experiences.
I want to do this differently. I'd love to figure out a way to talk to you [01:01:00] about this and my ex, who is also like steeped up in, in much more of a similar experience religious experience to Julia growing up, growing up in the Baptist church than, than I was. Her response was, Oh, it's no big deal.
Thank you. Which threw me for a loop and looking back on this now, like recognizing how entrenched she still was. Yeah. In these expectations about what men do and what women do.
Katherine: And it was just normal, so normal for her. She had no concept or idea of anything else. That's right.
Julia: Yeah. That's bad. Well and I'm not saying bad in a that is not bad in a blaming way towards anyone.
That is a bad system for all of us to have learned from, you know, this is super sad. So I've had [01:02:00] experiences in which like men have abused me sexually in an exploitive way. And that is a really awful experience. And then I've had experiences, perhaps more similar to what you're describing, Jeremiah. In which the abuse of, or the the non consensual experience is not necessarily abusive.
Non consent can absolutely be abusive and I've experienced that. Or non consent can exist when a couple doesn't have relational tools to navigate consent. So I had a diagnosis of vaginismus and vulvodynia, which means essentially painful intercourse and the constriction of the vaginal muscles. Deeply connected to...
Evangelicalism so I'm hesitant to use that diagnostic language, but that was what I experienced, which means that sex was often painful. And when I got married my husband and I would sometimes have these sexual experiences that were very, very physically painful. And my ex husband, who is a good human being, saw that I [01:03:00] was in pain, and he had this terrible choice in which he could stop the sexual experience because he didn't want to see his partner in pain or be any part of inflicting that.
However, if he chose to stop the sexual experience, that would also communicate to me as the woman in this. situation that I was not desirable. And so sometimes he would initiate stopping the sexual experience. And I would sometimes say, no, no, no, keep going. Because for me, that was my only way of proving my worth as a human being.
And so I could also have the opportunity to say, yes, let's stop this experience and save myself from the pain. Or I could power through the pain. And so both of us were stuck in these really terrible dynamics, which the experience was not consensual, right? Right. Not consensual because I was clearly in a huge amount of physical distress and emotional distress.
[01:04:00] However, From my perspective, that wasn't an abusive, non consensual experience, and I think the assumption that non consent is always abusive keeps us from having these dialogues because there is so much shame associated with it.
Katherine: That's right. Right, right. And I think that was something that I learned from y'all's episode about just because it's non consensual doesn't equal marital rape.
And I think that that is a new, a new a new phrase. Phrase. Simple. Right. That we're, we're more acquainted with. And, and I, and I love, thank you so much for sharing your example, Julia, because It was like you both were consenting to play roles. So there was consent. You didn't necessarily, you didn't know there was anything different, you know, like, yeah, it wasn't that he, you were saying, no, I don't want this.
And then he was forcing [01:05:00] still, that's a very different dynamic. We both have these roles to play. And we're both just playing
Julia: and we're performing our genders and we didn't know that we could consent out of it. And sadly, I've had the experiences that you're describing in which a sexual experience was forced due to an abuse of power.
And, and that's a different, that's a different kind of experience. Both are painful, both are harmful. But I think we have to have more nuanced dialogue around consent.
Katherine: Absolutely. Yeah. And then, and then just, Oof. And then like your story, Jeremiah, of like recognizing that this had never happened, like, and it wasn't in an effort to, to dominate, it was in an effort to play the role that you were told.
Jeremiah: Right. Right. Yeah. Right. And, and, and just to kind of build on [01:06:00] that, that yeah, like our earliest sexual experiences with my ex, yeah. Were they almost all ended with panic attacks. With my ex wife having a panic attack, and, did you
Katherine: correlate it with what had just happened? Or did you think it was completely separate?
I had
Jeremiah: no idea what was going on. I didn't have the language for it. I just knew that there was a sexual experience for something I wanted, something I thought she wanted. And the panic attacks, obviously like shut down the experience. It, it it heightened my own desire to move into like protective spaces.
And, and so I learned that initiating conversations about sex that had the capacity to bring that that, that, that kind of pain. So, so not just on a, on a, on a physical level, Julia, what you're talking about, but on a dialogical level. Sure, sure. Both. Yeah. Yeah. So.
Katherine: If this is too much information, you're, I will cut it from the episode, but were, [01:07:00] was, were your first sexual experiences in marriage?
Jeremiah: Depends on what you mean by sexual experience. Let's,
Katherine: let's, let's play the, the
Jeremiah: marital relationship was my first experience with intercourse. Got
Julia: it. There you go. Yeah. Yeah. Me too. And Yeah. I think the question is relevant in the sense that that meant a following of purity culture rules because the church defines sexuality by vaginally penetrative intercourse.
I think that language is so harmful because it I think that eliminates any other kinds of sexual experiences that are, that are just as, as valid and
Jeremiah: just as enjoyable.
Katherine: Yeah. And, and building that connection and intimacy as you were, you were talking about earlier as [01:08:00] a way of just wrapping up the episode, we've talked a little bit about this and you have shared some really great insights into the healing processes.
That you have both been through and then also clients but what are some just like stepping stones and, and, and starting places for like men listening to this episode of just like how to integrate and be that whole human. And then for women who might be in that hetero cisgender relationship on on what they can like how to just kind of navigate.
Potentially very brand new things that they may have learned in this episode. We can start with the men.
Jeremiah: I'm also thinking about stepping stones. I think first things first, we have to start thinking about sex in ways that go beyond vaginal intercourse. That sex is the way that the ways that two bodies interact with each other in a way that creates [01:09:00] some sort of, some sort of physical pleasure.
And thinking then about, well, what are the diversity of ways in, in, in, in which that happens for me what are the types of what are the types of touch that I like? Well, what are ways that I can have pleasure that, that, that don't involve touch and, and that can, that can either for myself and, and that are also relational so I think that.
Thinking about stepping stones, I think that that's an important stepping stone to acknowledge that sex is not a reduction to our penises that sex involves the totality of our bodies. Yeah.
Julia: I would say that learning to talk about... Sex is probably one of the stepping stones, and that's really difficult if you've never had any models for talking about sexuality. In our episode with you when we interviewed you for our podcast, you mentioned the [01:10:00] challenge of Well, how do you find a voice after leaving a religious community when you never developed one, right?
And so I recognize that even, I suppose, this stepping stone is a complicated one because that would require a person or a couple or a group to step up. to create a new roadmap or to start a new pathway down this sledding hill. Maybe having some questions could be helpful. So asking a partner or a friend or someone you trust who you believe could have this dialogue with you in a meaningful way to say, you know, what did you learn about your gender growing up.
What did it mean to be a man in your church? That might be a helpful first step, because it can also test out the water a little bit. Talking about what you learned is potentially vulnerable, but you're still [01:11:00] talking about something outside of yourself to a degree. And so being able to talk with someone about what that meant and what about that might've been difficult you know, to go there if, if, if the first part of that conversation goes well.
Yeah.
Katherine: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just getting, just getting comfortable with like just understanding the messages. Yeah. You received. Yes. It's hard though. It's hard work. Listen to sexvangelicals.
Julia: That's right. You can listen to our podcast.
Jeremiah: Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts,
Katherine: wherever you get your podcasts. Well, this has been very informative and also feels like the beginning of a conversation and there's just so much more to explore.
Just, yeah, through this lens, but I really appreciate you providing that extra perspective[01:12:00] just because. In the purity culture conversation, it tends to center around the woman's experience. And, and it, and as we know, patriarchy doesn't just impact women, it impacts everyone.
Julia: Right, right. And I think that one of the messages about purity culture is that women are the gatekeepers to sexuality.
And that's something that's damaging to women, but it damages men because it erases their ability to describe Their experiences in, in their own ways ,
Katherine: And, and almost eliminates their agency
Julia: within it. Absolutely. Absolutely. Of course.
Katherine: Yeah. Well, this has been great. As we, as we wrap up , share where folks can interact with you.
And then are you, are you all taking. Taking clients or do we have a full docket at the moment?
Julia: They can reach out
Jeremiah: to us and reach out to us. Yeah. So for more information about working with us, we're in, in the early stages of getting some coaching processes together.[01:13:00] Sex evangelicals at gmail.
com. We're also on Instagram and threads at sex evangelicals. And then we also have a subsect that goes out two or three times a week called relationship 101, which you can find at sex evangelicals. subsect. com. That's super
Katherine: easy and super simple. I love it.
Appreciate y'all.
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Rachel Bernstein LMFT, MSEd from the IndoctriNation podcast discusses what itâs like working with survivors from high-control groups. This episode is for survivors looking for a mental health professional or for mental health professionals looking to work with the demographic of survivors of cults, high-control groups, and spiritual abuse.
University of Salford
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Transcript (Transcript is unedited for typos and misspellings)
Katherine: Hello. How are you doing today?
Rachel: I am doing really good. How are you doing today?
Katherine: I am good. I am a little tired. I went to a midnight book release. On Monday nights, and I don't ever stay up that late, and I'm still sleeping.
That was a new thing for me. I was like, this is what teenagers do. These are not what people who are almost 40 do. But it was fun. It was a fun experience. I'm glad. Very excited to talk to you today. I know you have indoctrination podcast, and you do a lot of different work with a lot of different clients, but the particular demographic that I would [00:01:00] love to talk to you about is the demographic of folks who've And cults or high control experiences.
And I would love to hear from you, what prompted you to work with this demographic and what was the story that led you to working with this type
Rachel: of client? Nice. Okay. So there's so much to this story. I'll try not to make it overly long, but Okay, great. No, go for it. Tell, tell, tell whatever. It's slightly long, longer than it needs to be, not overly.
Right. Huh. Right. So, When I was growing up, my, one of my siblings who was eight years older got. Kind of a new friend through a friend, and they started hanging out a lot. Next thing we know, she's not really spending time at home. She has taken the money out of her [00:02:00] account and it's gone.
Which she had really worked hard for. In my family, we were supposed to work from when we were young. If we needed cash for anything, even to go to the movies, well, you need to earn it. You know, it was like that. So it, you know, we didn't take spending lots of money all at once lightly. Cause we know how much we had worked to make it and suddenly liquidated gone.
And she was speaking differently. She was acting in a very kind of in your face way. And we're like, what is going on? So then she said that she has this friend of a friend who's introduced her to this place. It's called Scientology. Got it. And and it's a church, but we're a Jewish family, but it's not a church church.
That would, that became a line in our family forever. It's not a church church. Like what? I'm sorry. It's not a church church, but it's not. So. Because there really wasn't the idea of a word cult that was known at the time, and this was in the 70s. So there [00:03:00] was no one to call. There were no resources that, you know, the books out there at the time before the interwebs, the, the books were written by cult leaders.
Like there were L. Ron Hubbard novels out there about Dianetics and his science fiction books, but nothing about what is Scientology and that it is a cult. And the, the cult books that were out there too, were more about like working with POWs who had been indoctrinated and watching the Manchurian candidate and are like, yeah, fit, but not.
So the turning point was. And I learned a lot about this. My, my parents responded different ways to stressful events. My mom was more of a kind of in your face, you have to stop this right now, finger pointing. I mean, that, that does sometimes come in handy, right? And my father instead was the, let me link arms with this person, see what they like about it, see what's interesting to them.
But also I want to ask my questions about what I'm concerned about. So, They had tension and [00:04:00] she had tension with my parents and she said this group is going to teach me how to get along better with, with all of you. And And my friend said she's gotten along better with her parents since she's gotten involved.
And so my father, in a very nice way, said could we call her parents and find out? Like, if this really has helped, then I'll say, okay. And she got the number of this person and their parents and the parents said, in this kind of panic tone, where did you see our daughter? Whoa. Right? That was a whoa.
And my dad goes, what do you mean? We haven't, we don't know where she is. She left home six months ago and she said for the last six months she's been getting along better with her parents. She hasn't seen them. So this is the way the group defined getting along better, right? No contact.
Katherine: No contact.
Rachel: Cut them off.
Oh my. That actually startled my sister. She didn't know. She didn't know [00:05:00] that's what that meant. I'm sorry. And she tried to get her money back. That was impossible, but. That you could see the personality change right away, and you could see that being in your face and she was having problems with her friends at school for the first time, too, because she was learning other ways of communicating the Scientology way of communicating, which is very in your face.
So that became dinner table conversation. How can this happen that people can just take over someone's mind and convince them that something is true. That's really not true. That's totally the opposite of what is true. And then. Because I then was raised hearing about this and that there are many groups that do their recruiting also on college campuses, and they use front names, I then went to college, and I saw it.
I saw these groups with their front names that I had learned, and they're at the student union, you know, passing out their pamphlets having people join, taking them on weekends, the bus picked up in front of my dorm, and I remember, because I was now cult educated, [00:06:00] I said to these people, Where are you going?
And they said, Oh, we're going on a church weekend. What church is it? We don't know. Really? You don't know. And where are you going? Well, we're going to the mountains. I go, you know, that's not a place like mountains are these geographical structures and geological entities. That's not a place. Do you know where you're going?
Is there going to be a phone there? Like, how are you going to leave? And they just thought I was being a drag. And I remember the leaders coming on the bus and asking me who I was and why I was harassing the people who were going. But I thought some of them are going to be dropping out of school after this and needing to show their devotion to this group and not school because that's what would happen.
Suddenly these people were gone. Yeah. And then. So there are just two more parts of this story, and it really is, this is a shorter version. When I then went on to grad school to become, to, to become a therapist, to learn [00:07:00] counseling, there was a, a group therapy course where you learn to do group therapy that turned out to be run like a cult.
The leader of it, who was the teacher, used, utilized almost every technique of influence and manipulation. And that was just her personality and I did a social experiment in that class, which was interesting because I noticed. This was the year before my dad passed away the year before I broke up with my boyfriend the year before my favorite dog passed away like I was just on the cusp of going through lots of trauma.
Yeah, but until then life had been okay, but we were supposed to share our traumas. And if we didn't have trauma to share like if we hadn't gone through abuse or something, we were withholding, we were being resistant to the process. And then I could see people folding like I could see them making stories up just to be liked.
And then they would be hugged by the people in the group. Thank you for [00:08:00] trusting us with your trauma and with your, with your past. So people were just crafting stories to please the teacher. I thought, wow, this is happening in a therapy class. I remember talking to my Dean about that. He was actually a little alarmed and I did one of my, I did my dissertation on what happened in that class for that school.
That was controversial. But then I, I thought, you know, I want to do this work because there were so few resources for people and. I, yes, I want to do general counseling. I still do some general counseling, but about 80 percent of the counts counseling I do is former cult stuff. And then I start that they were looking for a clinician at a place called the cult clinic in Los Angeles, which was effectively shut down by Scientology.
But that was my first taste of harassment, Scientology harassment, which did scare me. I mean, they had. discredited LAPD officers that they hired to harass people to follow people. They were scary, [00:09:00] scary mofos, if I can say. Leaning on my car when I'd come out of the office following me home sending people into poses clients.
And I get this note saying, just to let you know, we're watching and listening and thought, what the hell is this? And so I remember staying home for about a week, my father had passed about a year before this, and suddenly I heard his words, which were, you can't let the bullies win. That was his way of looking at the world like you cannot let the bullies win.
And I thought, Okay, but I need a week. I just have a week. I'm like talking to him wherever he is. He's already passed. And I had to get myself together and See what my rights were. Yes, we're not. Take a little break, right? Yes, we're not letting them win, but I do need a break. I need a break, because they're outside my house, and I need to know if I'll be protected.
I need to contact the police. And then I went back to work, and I thought, what I'm dealing with in terms of harassment is only slightly what former Scientologists deal [00:10:00] with. And other people from other groups. They're pretty intense. Yeah. Scientologists are very intense. Really intense.
Katherine: Stopping them is intense, right?
Mm hmm.
Rachel: Yeah, yeah. They've complained to my board many times to try to have my license taken away. They, they're no nonsense, but it's what happens to me and to a couple of my, you know, colleagues. And, and I think to me, especially because where I started doing my work, my counseling was very close to the Scientology buildings in Hollywood.
So I started working with a lot of Scientologists and have continued working with them. So they don't like me, but okay. So that's, that's sort of how I got started in this. So yeah. And then how many years would you say
Katherine: that this has been like the folks? Is it kind of been from the
Rachel: beginning? Yeah, it's been since I've been doing counseling.
It's been 32 years and it's morphed over time in that before it really was. It was, I thought this was fascinating. [00:11:00] This was a human rights issue to me, especially the way in a lot of these groups that women were treated and children were treated or mistreated, neglected and, and then over time it morphed to include now people who have been in relationships with narcissists because I would do a talk on cults or something and someone would call me and say, that sounds like my husband.
Oh, what do you mean? And I kind of learned from people responding to my words about cult saying, no, that was my family that or that was my relationship. So I realized to now with. You know, with political landscape and so many people having polarized views of things and group think that I think is very scary.
That's happening right now in the world to that I care about this on a micro level and also macro that. As the descendant of Holocaust survivors, I'm, I care a lot about group think and how people can be, kind of, how you get to
Katherine: that place. It
Rachel: doesn't Right. Caught up into a ffr, the [00:12:00] torch and pitchfork way of Right.
And then also still on the micro person by person listening to what they've been through and trying to help them individually.
Katherine: Mm-Hmm. Two, two observations. First of all. I noticed that when you were talking to those people who were getting on this bus to go to the quote unquote mountains, and that your father's approach to your sister, a lot of questions, there was like a lot of asking questions and I sure I'm sure we'll get into that.
In just a minute, but I, I noticed that and then also I do appreciate that you address the fact that like a narcissistic relationship can have that similarity because I feel like I know like in the world that I work in, we have a much better, a broader. view of like what a cult can be, what a high control relationship can be, and what a high control religion can be.
But most folks [00:13:00] still think of a cult as like something happening in a bunker somewhere, or out in the desert, and Expanding what that can be and what that high control relationship can be. And there are so many people who experienced that, but then have that very, just invalidating experience of like, nobody knows what this is like.
It feels like a cult, but I can't call it a cult because it doesn't look like this. And, and so I appreciate that. You made that connection between that narcissist and that cold, cold experience. The impact can be very, very similar.
Rachel: The impact is very similar.
I think because not every cult is run by a narcissist. Some really are. You know, they have their delusional disorder and they get people into this diagnosis that is called fully I do, which is shared psychosis. Like they invite people who are maybe vulnerable to that way of thinking into their psychosis, but by [00:14:00] and large, I'd say a good 90 percent of cult leaders have a narcissistic bent.
And so then. Whether it's your partner, your parent, even your child, there's some people who contact me because their children are narcissistic and run their life. Because that it's the same disorder that's prompting it, you're going to have similar techniques. Like they've read the same manual. It's kind of amazing.
And, and then when you have similar techniques of, of manipulation, gaslighting, all of it, you're going to have similar outcomes. So it could be a one on one situation or it could be hundreds of thousands of people.
Katherine: Yeah, and that can be helpful for someone who is recovering from that type of relationship, like even looking for someone who has the high control experience when they are looking for a mental health professional.
Right. That would be maybe not necessarily just a narcissistic relationship, but someone who has that experience might be able to relate with that a little more. One of the things that's unique about your story is you didn't get into [00:15:00] this demographic because you had a personal experience being in a cult.
So I think that's really unique. I feel like everyone that I know who gets into this demographic also had an experience. In it makes your story very unique to me, but then also, what are some things that you have learned over the years from your clients about what they need for
Rachel: recovery? Right. It's a great question.
So yes. And it, it is unique that I haven't. Been in one myself, and I think that's why I work almost equally with the families and friends of people who are in situations like this or in relational situations like this and have a webinar for them too, because I was. One of those, like being on the outside, needing to figure out how to have these conversations, how to manage the anxiety that comes up when you see your loved one getting slowly stolen away from you.
And you don't [00:16:00] know what this forces that's on them and how to. See if you can get them back and if it's even possible and learning about the ways to communicate that are in a kind of counterintuitive way that are specific for this has been something I noticed from my own family, but also now for further doing this work and learning about that.
So, right. I mean, what. People need. It's interesting when you talk about doing this kind of counseling for the people specifically who were in situations like this, whether it is a cult or a relationship that took over their life, multi level marketing, abusive teen treatment place, whatever it was, or is, or having been with a therapist who was dangerous, which I talk about a lot.
I, well, it's unconscionable to me. To use that power in that way makes me mad. And so there are, [00:17:00] there are some things that. Are really important. I think for specifically when people are coming out of this, they need to know that they're believed because so often they're made to feel that they're exaggerating the story or they didn't get it right.
That's part of the gaslighting that they can't trust the evidence of their senses and how they are deciphering what happened. And they also will often underplay it. And really downgrade how much they've been traumatized because it wasn't supposed to be seen that way in the group like you're supposed to just deal with being abused, or you're, it's for your benefit.
You're supposed to be appreciative of being treated that way, being selected for something that turned out to be abusive. So. Abuse, neglect get underreported a lot of the time by people who leave. And what helps is defining for them what they've been through. Like, Oh, [00:18:00] that actually is abuse. That's why you're having nightmares.
That's why you break into a cold sweat when you hear someone who has similar voice to the person who did that to you. I want you to understand yourself and your reactions, and you'll only understand it if you know what happened to you. And also that it wasn't your fault. That you didn't bring it in, that it wasn't because of you.
Because, you know, within a cultic system, as you know, anything that's good that happens to you is because of the leadership. Anything that's bad is because of you.
Katherine: And because you didn't
Rachel: follow the leadership. Right, because you didn't follow the leadership. You, or you weren't feeling it in your heart or whatever, whatever it is, it's always back on you.
So to be able to have a clear sense of who the culprit is, and you can take it off of you is also a really important thing. It's also good for people to understand that they have strengths, that they have capabilities. That they can live in the world and be successful at it, even [00:19:00] though they have been told that they don't have these strengths and these capabilities and to have them understand why they were convinced of that and how that fed the.
Need of the leader to have you be dependent on them and to never want to leave because you don't feel equipped to be in the world. I think helping people understand why they were taught what they were taught and how it wasn't for them. It was right. It was for the control that the leader or the group needed to have over them.
That's really helpful just to understand the source and the reasoning for the things they were taught as truths about them. And I think it's really helpful to connect people with other people. That's why I run a support group. So people don't feel isolated and alone. And I will often talk to people about how they They are having trouble relaxing and resting because when you're in a cult, you're going, going, going, you're doing, doing, doing, you learn that you matter the [00:20:00] least and you don't have to sleep.
And it's fine if you're not eating and you're, you're supposed to somehow be devoted to the cause. And I try to shift that in my counseling work. So people know they are also the cause that it's important for them to take care of them. And that that's not selfish and it's not being lazy and it's not having pride.
It's not all the other things that it's called when you care about you. And that you have to be a good steward of the self in order to then do work that you might want to do that's in service of others, but it needs to happen in that order. And there's nothing wrong with you for doing it in that order.
And I also, I guess I want people to know that the world outside is actually not going to be as scary and not going to be as critical and not going to be as gossipy, like they'll have more privacy. There, there aren't people who are going to give them a hard time about everything. I have Clients who [00:21:00] panic if they're running even 30 seconds late for a session, or they come on to a zoom call a little bit late, or they come to the group a little bit late.
I'll sometimes see them in the waiting area on zoom and then they're gone. They're missing. And I realized they're panicking because they're sure. That I'm going to give them a hard time and I'm going to berate them for not showing their allegiance to this group and not showing that it matters enough for them to be there on time, all the things that they went through in their cultic group.
And they're also They've expressed to me they're worried about not showing up for the group because when they didn't go to things, that's when they were talked about in their absence and waited and given a hard time. So they were afraid of walking back into what suddenly felt like an unsafe. Situation.
So I let people know we do not talk about you. And if someone does want to talk about you while you're not here, if it's something positive, like, oh, it's so [00:22:00] nice to meet that woman last time. And I hope she comes back. That's fine. And I'll be happy to tell you about that. But, you know, someone who just wants to.
Berate. Not allowed, not allowed. So it always needs to feel safe. You just, if they're doing this work and learning from people and what makes them so anxious and you just see how much they've been mistreated and how much they've been under a microscope that has been so unfair to them and has made them so tense and so worried needlessly.
Katherine: Absolutely. So I heard you say. Believe them. Let them know that you believe their story. I heard you say, give them like language to name what happened and then validate even that it was like a big deal, like naming it as abuse or naming it as as gaslighting. I heard you say, help them access.
Like the internal [00:23:00] resources that they have and access their own, you didn't say the word power, but their own, their own resources, their own internal resources reframe things. So learning that like outside world is not scary and, and just having that, like a lot of like compassion for. The trauma that results in anxiety or fear or mistrust or anything like that.
All like super, super, super important things. And I just think about like your support groups and like the courage that it takes for someone to show up to something like that when they have, a lot of times it is a group. Right. That happened in the first place. And that can be very scary, yet such a huge part of the recovery process to be able to engage with a group again.
And yeah. Oh yeah. Again,
Rachel: very, very important. Yeah. There are people also who. [00:24:00] Have been in support groups that have really, really been unhealthy. And also ones where they dealt with being in a treatment center that were kind of patterned. Well, they took off from Synanon, which started this this horrible practice.
It was a cult in California started a whole horrible practice of something called the game where. You are supposed to berate people in a group. You're supposed to shout at them, call them things. They would sometimes need to grovel, like walk around on, on their hands and knees to show that they were they knew they were less than or they needed to wear a sign around them, around their neck that would say something.
It could say whore, could say anything and whatever they may have been labeled that day. I mean, it was, so it was attack. Therapy. I don't even want to call it therapy. And so people coming out of that have interesting reactions when I do counseling with them. [00:25:00] And, and what is one of the reactions that's kind of sad is that some of them think that I don't care about them because I'm not shouting at them.
Translation. I get that
Katherine: though. I, I totally get that. Yeah.
Rachel: Yeah. Right. That was the justification for someone being cruel. Like, no, this is for your benefit. And so I remember one person saying, I don't know if this is going to work because you've never raised your voice, but it's like someone raised by an abusive parent, you know, like this is how I show you that I care.
It's, oh, it's such a perversion of how it should be.
Katherine: No, absolutely. No. And I, I mean that I'm remembering how like I migrated to someone who was like a known abusive pastor in the evangelical world is Mark Driscoll. And I remember migrating to him as a leader because he yelled from the pulpit and because he was so angry from the pulpit.
And I had without realizing it been conditioned to see [00:26:00] that a strong, trustworthy leadership in it. I was like very just Very disorienting when I realized that that happens and that I like read into that anger as good leadership. It totally, totally, really.
Rachel: Okay. Yeah, it's really terrible. And people get that they, they then wind up sometimes in relationships with people who are really mistreating them because.
That was translated as love. That's another thing to define. Like, what is love? And what can that look like in a relationship? And what are rights? I mean, I remember one time, I, I was flown to Texas to help with the, the raid, which had already taken place on the FLDS compound. And I, I don't like raids, even though I've worked with a lot of people who did feel traumatized by [00:27:00] them, but also relieved knowing that there were people out there who cared about what was happening behind closed doors.
Like it's very mixed thing. So I wasn't involved in all planning it, but they asked me to come in to, to help to train the social workers who were working with the people who had been taken off the camp compound even temporarily. And they were talking to these women or young, well, they're really still girls who are these sister wives about rights, that they had rights.
And they were looking blankly and and they said, they, they don't seem to believe us that they have rights. I said, They don't know what rights are. We have to go back. We have to teach them that there are these things that are called rights. That, that there is things called boundaries, that you have the right to say no or to control your body.
But that's not true in their group. So they're not gonna believe you that they have these rights. They probably don't even know that there's this thing called a constitution. Mm-Hmm. . [00:28:00] That says that they have rights that are legally protected. And they don't even
Katherine: have a
Rachel: concept for it. Right. And that if they were to impose those rights, they would be abused or they would be kicked out.
And so it's not safe for them to have them. So we can't jump in assuming that they've had the same life and same education and same exposure. Like we have to educate them about the fact that these things exist. And that maybe that will help them leave at some point, knowing that these things exist, but only outside the compound.
Katherine: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I know that. You and I probably come from the same position of just because someone has a credential doesn't make them someone as as you as you discovered with these social workers doesn't make them equipped to work with this demographic. But if someone were to be interested in working with this demographic and wanted to.
Equip themselves and get the resources to be able to work with this demographic. [00:29:00] What would you point them to and what would you direct them to? And what are some recommendations for things that they could pursue to become equipped?
Rachel: Okay. I think it's a great thing. And yes, just because someone has, has initials after their name doesn't make them healthy people.
And I have seen that and I've seen it for people who have dealt with abuse at the hands of psychiatrists who have an MD and You know have these very advanced degrees, but they have a disorder that makes them totally misbehave. So, and, and there are people who don't have credentials who I think have been great.
So it's still buyer beware, unfortunately, even it's, it's important just to be a smart spiritual consumer and a smart therapeutic. consumer. I think what people also need to know is that now there are a lot of people who are running what they're calling support groups, and they're not necessarily credentialed people.
And some run a lovely group, but they're not quite sure what to [00:30:00] do when there is an issue. And they'll sometimes call me like this happened and then someone felt ganged up on and we started talking about someone. Thinking it would be helpful, but then they felt traumatized and like, it can go down kind of a rabbit hole if there isn't someone who's had training in how to run a support group.
So you want to go to someone who's had training and also there are people who have left cults who will sometimes run them as cults. That's how they manage, right? That's what they know. Yeah. And then there's a group of favorites and that, you know, and they feel, they know it and other ones are feeling ostracized.
It's very culty and they're feeling judged. So see how you feel. Know that if you get involved in a group, that's not your only option. You can go shopping around, don't owe them anything. You don't have to keep coming back if it doesn't feel safe. There is, this needs to be part of. The curriculum for social work schools.
Katherine: Oh, my gosh. Yes, right. It does because it's [00:31:00] so common.
Rachel: It's it's so common. I'm sure you've had the experience. And if you talk about this issue, invariably, when I'm out somewhere and someone asked me what I do, there's at least one other person who's going to say, Oh, yeah. I was in something or my family member was like, it happens so frequently now that I think it should be curriculum and for people who are learning to to become therapists of any sort.
It's just really not, and it's still not seen as something really as important as it should be. I've, I've taught a class at. USC about how to run support groups for people who have been abused in groups. But it's just, they'll invite you with just that
Katherine: extra awareness of like, they're coming into this and they're instantly going to feel anxious because and just that extra layer of awareness that someone who has never had that experience would have no idea that someone would come in to that
Rachel: environment.
No, right. It's it is. It's a niche. And and I'm [00:32:00] just I'm asked when I'm asked, but most of the time not because they have other things that they think are more important to teach them and maybe they are. But still, this happens. And so the there is a program out of England run by Colleagues of mine who are lovely and wonderful have had a lot of experience.
It's through the University of Salford and I think you can take courses online. It's a master's in coerce coercion and coercive control. And It teaches you about what that is. I don't know to what degree it teaches you to do the counseling piece, but it is a master's in it. So you have a good framework for understanding it.
And it's new few years old, and I there need to be more programs like it. But I think If people want to go to conferences, or if they want to attend like the International Cultic Studies Association conference online, where there is a section that is [00:33:00] for professionals, how you do this work, I do some lectures on it, how you also do interventions how they're different than regular interventions and, Yeah, just understanding the nuanced differences in this work is important and to understand why those things are important.
So I think attending conferences, if you want to learn reading some books, I'm in the process of writing one that is going to be about my counseling work. So hopefully that will be out soon. I hope. And, and. It will be a little bit more of like a how to this is what happened to this person. And this is how I thought to help them.
And because that's missing out there. So, yeah, so I think this program in England and also attending workshops at This at the International Cultic Studies Association Conference, which is yearly, is a good place to start. And and then reading books, you know, from people who are professionals who are talking about how they do this [00:34:00] work.
I, because again, there were so few resources I really have learned most of what I've learned. From my clients really taking notes, like, okay, that worked better than this. And why understanding it. And, you know, we've been a learner of the
Katherine: people that you're working with. And that sounds like that's part of your story is you learned from the actual people that you were working with.
And, and that can be, I think, really empowering to, I think, for someone on the client side of. This person maybe doesn't understand, but they are, they want to understand and
Rachel: they want it. I mean, now I can come in feeling that I have an expertise, which is great, but I also come in with enough humility to know I don't know everything, which is a really important thing for someone who's been involved in the cult to see that someone coming in, who seems to have this position of authority is saying.
I'm open to you teaching me.
Katherine: [00:35:00] Absolutely. Absolutely.
Rachel: And I'm open to being wrong. I'm not an actor on you. Right. Exactly. I can know about cults, but I don't know you. And I don't know what's going to work for you. Some of this is going to be trial and error. I'm not going to punish you or, you know, I'm not going to stop treating you because something I provided for you turned out to not be the best thing for you.
And you let me know that I'll be happy that you let me know that so we can fine tune it for you. But yeah, that dialogue does not happen.
Katherine: In the cold, like, yeah, like you have something to offer here that I don't have and like having that kind of relationship when you don't know and when it isn't your expertise, but it is something that you're interested in for something for someone who is.
And I, I mean, I encounter this so often just with like [00:36:00] my clients and it typically comes up even just in their first initial consultation of trying therapy and admitted and immediately realizing it's not helping and it's not the person doesn't get them and doesn't understand and then. to have to go through the process of finding someone, you know, when you're, when you're traumatized and when you're exhausted and we're just trying to figure things out, what are some guidelines that you can give to someone who is looking for a mental health professional to help them that they can maybe look for just immediately when they.
Look on someone's website and questions that they can ask during the consultation to kind of help them narrow down someone who might be able to
Rachel: help. Right. So first, you know, I think you and I are going to be equally reactive to going onto people's websites who seemed who, [00:37:00] who are trying to come across.
Like they have the answer. They are the one. And they need to be talking all about their credentials and how they can provide something that no one else can. That is a huge red flag because they're never also typically going to be able to admit that they were wrong because they know it all. So if it feels collaborative, collaborative.
Like we will work together to help you get to where you want to go that kind of language. Like, I'm going to hold your hand while we kind of muddle through this together. I can offer what I know, but this is something that, you know, I'm not going to be coming in and I'm going to be the expert and you have to listen to everything I say.
And so, yes, if it has that kind of we're working together language. And that I'm open to hearing, and I want to understand you so that I can help you. That is, it's nice that you get to be, as the former member or the person who's been through this, you get to be the expert in [00:38:00] that space too, because you know your story.
And you know what you feel, you intuit that you need, and you want a therapist to be open to that. It's also important for people to notice when they first start going to a therapist, if they get the sense that they have to make a commitment for a certain amount of time. That is something I think people should not necessarily agree to cause then you're locked in and then if you decide that it really isn't working for you, you might feel like you have to keep coming back because you're of that mindset of you made a commitment and you have to stick with your commitments, but it only matters if it's helping you.
And so you want it to be open ended. you want to be careful to, to not work with a therapist who keeps changing the subject. Like if you really want to talk about your cult experience or the manipulation that you went through or something that's specific to your experience and the therapist just isn't trained [00:39:00] in that.
And instead of saying, you know what, you have a book that would be good, or maybe I'll do some research or cause I have.
Katherine: Right.
Rachel: And I've had therapists contact me and say, listen, I'm not telling you, I want you to meet with my client. We have a good relationship, but I don't know about this. Can you guide me on this?
And can you give me some resources? I really value that. I think that's really wonderful. So if the therapist is open to learning so that they don't keep just kind of ignoring when you bring it up, cause it's not their expertise and saying, well, now let's just talk about your mother. Or whatever, like the usual suspect.
No. And you want a therapist who honors your boundaries. And if you have a therapist who asks you questions and you don't know if you want to share so much information about yourself, even though in the cult you've been trained to share everything with anyone at all times, because you have to If a therapist says, actually, that's, I'm, I'm kind of glad that you're saying [00:40:00] no, because you don't really know me yet and you don't feel comfortable talking and you don't know how I'm going to respond to your information.
That's good, then that's safe. And so what can I do, I'll ask my clients is what can I do to provide a feeling of safety here for you to let you know that I'm going to handle what you tell me. In a healthy way and something that would feel safe for you. There are therapists and I've told people this. If you have a therapist who tells you, who uses either of these two words, which are like nails going down a chalkboard for me, resistance and withholding.
Katherine: If they tell you that
Rachel: you are resisting or you're being resistant to this process or you're withholding information from them. Right. Just because you're saying, yeah, I don't know if I feel like force. Yes. Yes.
Katherine: And it also indicates that they're almost taking offense. that the client doesn't trust them.
And someone who is aware of this experience will know it is going [00:41:00] to take a lot for this client to trust me. So I'm not going to force them and I'm not going to push them. I'm going to let them lead. And how much they want to share and even just say that, Ooh, I felt my internal haunches. Yes. Wow.
Rachel: Right. And you, and that somehow the client also was told they need to make a commitment to this work. That this work is the thing that's going to change them. But that is just filled with too much ego and too much stress. And just let the person be and let them breathe and let them bring snacks.
Just let them relax. Right.
Katherine: . Maybe don't sip a glass of wine, but having a cup of tea is fine. Exactly. Yeah. I remember one one thing that I think my therapist said that felt me helps me feel really safe was I had mentioned sexual abuse pretty early on in our, our therapeutic relationship together.
[00:42:00] And it was probably a good year before I was like talking about something else. And she was like a while back, you mentioned the sexual abuse. There's a chance that that has some you know, impact on what's happening here. Like, would you mind sharing about that a little more? And so I did. And then at the end of the session, she said, Do you want to bring this up again, like if it feels important to you or do you want me to ask you about it?
Like, would you prefer to bring it up or would you prefer for me to ask you about it? And that just felt, I just felt very empowered with that. And just like, she was like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna leave this in your hands. If you want to bring it up again and you want to talk about it, we will. If you. Want me to ask you about it?
I can do that as well. And it just felt, you know, just very, it felt very empowering and it, and it definitely created a sense of safety for me. And I've [00:43:00] definitely like implemented that in, in with my own clients too. Just like, is this, is this something that you want to talk about more or do you want to just wait and bring it up?
Later when you're ready and you just giving, yeah, just empowering the client and when they have been so disempowered and teaching them little ways that you're allowed to take this back, you're allowed to take this voice back. That's great. That is great. I, yeah. Is there anything else that you want to share about what a client might need or what a mental health first step?
Professional might need in.
Rachel: In this process, so starting with mental health professionals, there are going to be times like I've, I've gotten to a certain degree desensitized to hearing some pretty horrific stories. I was not at the beginning, of course, but it is good if you find that. You know, you want to be open to this [00:44:00] population.
Sometimes they've been through really horrendous, horrendous things. And so it's good. It's important for you to take care of you. And if this really is too much for you, or if it's too triggering, cause you went through something similar, get more support for yourself. So that you can be able, right. Or you can choose if there are certain parts of this population you don't want to work with, that wouldn't be healthy for you.
And it's okay to say that. It's okay to know that. And then it's good for you to have a resource list, because I never liked saying no to a client when I didn't have someone else to offer them, you know, like, how about try this person. And so then if you know that you're starting out and you're still very much affected by the things that you're being told.
It is good to have at least three or four other names to refer people to for those cases and really, you know, again, you know, really make sure that you feel protected along the way until you get [00:45:00] maybe a little more able or desensitized. For clients. I think it's really good to know that, at least the way I talk about it that.
They're the ones having the power in that space, and they might not know it, but I will let people know that like I make sure it's where it might. I'm not at all I don't have OCD traits sometimes I wish I had more of them in my house would be cleaner. But Right. But, I measure the furniture in my office, which is a weird thing. That might sound weird, but I make sure that my therapy chair isn't higher than the other chairs or the couch. Like I want us literally to be seeing eye to eye that we are equals here. And not lording over them just because I'm in my chair, you know, I don't have power.
I will tell clients that I'm going to provide for them. My 31, 32 years of experience, but that they're hiring me, they're in charge. If I'm not giving them what they want, [00:46:00] they don't have to stay. It's like if you take your car to a mechanic and they don't fix the problem, go somewhere else. Or say, this is actually not what I'm needing.
I'm needing more of this. Like, guide me to know what you would like, and then maybe I can provide that with more clarity, and we can work on defining what might be helpful here. But really, you can call the shots. And you can, you know, you can cancel your next appointment and that's okay, if you have stuff to do you can, I think it's also important when someone has been involved in a cult, sometimes they get very attached to the next person who is guiding them and leading them and they can get dependent.
And it is my job, I think, to be a transitional object. And it's fine if people want to be dependent on me for a time, but I will say at some point, even though I know you're calling me to ask me what decision you should make about something, I would love it [00:47:00] if you, if we could work together where you will feel confident being the one where you can ask yourself that question and feel good about the answer you give yourself and trust it.
So I can be that person for a while. But part of the goal here will be to hand the baton back to you, you know, I think it's an important message.
Katherine: Absolutely. Yeah. And not just. I think that that for someone looking for a mental health professional that they can work with to, as you mentioned that collaboration and that mutuality and, and, and someone not showing up in that space and like I am the expert I know.
This is what you need, et cetera, et cetera. That that's a good distinction to make. And, and you can typically sense that a little bit in that first meeting and that first consultation. Not always, but I feel like that's [00:48:00] something that that will come up. And. Yeah, and I also feel like it's, it's totally fine to ask a mental health professional in that initial consultation what are some books that you have read about this?
What is, what is training that you have had on this? When you say that you're trauma informed. What does that mean exactly? Have you had training in that or is it just, you know what trauma is, you know, like, like having that you can ask those questions right out of the gate and and that's okay.
And a good mental health professional is not going to get defensive.
Rachel: Right. Even if people want to take a break, like I'll say sure. I mean, of course I don't even have to give them permission. They can take a break whenever they want, but if they want to see if they are able to take what they got from therapy and kind of just Use it on their own and, [00:49:00] and feel like they're able to call the shots in their life and see what they can do by themselves.
I think it's really important to have people have that time. And then there's no shame in calling me and saying, well, something came up. And I realized I'm not equipped for that thing that just came up yet. So can I come back for a while? And yeah, I mean, you know where to reach me, you know, you have my number if you need to come back, great.
But, and then when you're done with that, feel free to, you know, I also, I don't mind collaborating with other professionals. So if someone does EMDR, and I think that would be really good for. Client, then I'll, I will refer them or say, sure, they can go see someone else. The only time that becomes an issue is if someone else is seeing someone who I think is fraudulent in some way, like they're consulting with their psychic, you know, who's telling them that they don't need counseling.
They just need to pay the psychic 10, 000 and they will free them of their negative energy. Okay. Then we're going to have a discussion [00:50:00] about that. But if it's someone healthy. Who is an adjunct. I think part of the wisdom that we have in this world is knowing who our resources are and utilizing them.
And so I'm, I never feel in competition, but I will warn someone if I think they're getting advice from someone who is taking advantage of them.
Katherine: Absolutely. Well, this has been amazing. And I know that. Both mental health professionals and folks looking for one are going to find this episode very, very helpful.
If folks want to know more about you and the work that you do, where is the best place to find you?
Rachel: Right. So you can listen to my podcast. It comes out each week. It's called indoctrination. It's on every platform, as far as I can tell, which is lovely. And I can be reached. All my information is on my website, Rachel Bernstein therapy.
com. I'm Los Angeles based, but I work with people all over the world. And I have this support group. That's every other Wednesday [00:51:00] night on zoom. And I work with families with people who are trying to reach out to loved ones. Trying to plan a way to intervene if they feel they need to do that and doing just general counseling day to day in my office in Los Angeles but mostly still on Zoom.
And so, yeah, there are a lot of places to reach me and I'm excited to have people reach out if they think it would be helpful. Is
Katherine: your support group just kind of anyone can join at any time or do you have like Is it for like a certain amount of time and you
Rachel: just right. Yeah, that's a great question.
So it's open ended. But I just need to vet the person before because we have had issues with people just jumping on who were from a particular group and they were. spying basically on the group to see if former members of that group were coming to this and wanting to get their information. So I, as a safeguard talk to everyone [00:52:00] first to vet them before I give them the zoom link.
And and then I do have right of refusal, like if someone was pretending to be someone turns out that they're not and they really are there to wreak havoc, they're no longer invited back, it needs to remain a safe place. And it really has, except for Scientology at the beginning. And that's why I have that.
I have to have that interview process now because of them. But it's been great and it's been safe and it's a really nice feeling, nice kind of supportive, collaborative feeling in that group. But yeah, so people can join at any time. And it, people come when they come. It's very open ended and which I think people.
Value that there isn't the expectation and I'm not going to contact them. Like what was wrong? How come you didn't
Katherine: come? Yeah, that's great. And then one final thing you mentioned a [00:53:00] university that has a master's degree about coercive control I'd love to Drop that in the show notes as well. What was
Rachel: the university?
University of Salford. It's in England. And It's S A L F O R D. They have a program in coercive control.
Katherine: Alright, I will look that up and I will make sure that makes it in the show notes. Thank you so much for
Rachel: being here. Yes, thank you. Thanks for interviewing me. It was lovely to talk to you.
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Brian Lee shares his personal story of experiencing spiritual abuse and what led him to start Broken to Beloved, an online summit and support resource for survivors.
Register for the Broken to Beloved Summit January 23-26, 2024 HERE
Brian Lee is a pastor, coach, and speaker. As a survivor of spiritual abuse and religious trauma, he has spent his time since leaving vocational ministry in 2021 working to provide recovery and resources for fellow victims and survivors. In 2023, he created and founded Broken to Beloved, a nonprofit organization that exists to help other victims and survivors through its Annual Summit and seasonal Cohorts, while also providing trauma awareness and safeguarding practices to pastors, leaders and churches.
Based in Richmond, VA, Brian loves to go on outdoor adventures with his family, explore their neighborhood, community, and city, find good parks, enjoy good food, and have fun together. As a coffee snob and addict, he could always use another cup.
Uncertain is a podcast of Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If youâre enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus.
You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/support
To get in touch with us please email [email protected]
Follow on Instagram @uncertainpodcast
Transcript (Transcript is unedited for typos or misspellings):
Katherine: hey, Brian.
Brian: Hey, Katherine. How's it going? Going? All right. How about you? Doing,
Katherine: doing well, doing, doing okay for doing okay. Or a Tuesday.
Brian: It's just for the end of the month slash year slash the world is losing its mind.
Katherine: Right. I know like there's been a lot of moments this week where somebody will say something about Christmas and I'm like, Oh, that's, that's on Sunday.
Yes. Okay. We are, we are still, there is still Christmas. Yes. Well, thanks for joining me. I am really excited to talk to you about your summit that you are hosting and curating in January for Spiritual Abuse Awareness Month. At the time this episode comes out, it will already be January. So I'm really excited to hear about that.
I got to participate in that [00:01:00] last year. We'll be participating again this year. Great time to just connect with other people working in this spiritual abuse, recovery, religious trauma, recovery space, and also. Spiritual Abuse Awareness Month for folks who are not aware is in January. And we were talking before we started recording about when we first heard about Spiritual Abuse Awareness Month.
When, when was it for listeners that you first
Brian: heard about it? I just learned about it last year because, and I, but to be fair, I've only been doing this work for about a year now. I wish I knew about it sooner. And I think we were both saying it's like, we can't find who originated this thing. But it's been around for at least 20 years, which to me is crazy.
Yeah. I learned about it because of Aaron hung, who's an artist who was doing that whole AZ trauma recovery series on her Instagram page. And I was like, spiritually, it'd be some awareness a month. That's a thing. And then the more I dove into it, I was like, Oh my gosh, this is absolutely a thing. And it's been around a long time.
Why do we not know more about it?
Katherine: Exactly. I was wondering too, when, [00:02:00] when did that book, the oldest probably. Documented writing about spiritual abuse is probably the subtle power of spiritual abuse. I
Brian: think that's what I was thinking. Yep. And that was, I think it was written in the 90s. I want to say, okay, I'm going to look for a publication date because I want to be sure.
But I remember reading it thinking I was like, did they just write this like a year ago? And it's like, no, it's been around for a very long time. Yeah,
Katherine: yeah, yeah. And then even just like the reality that PTSD. Was not an official diagnosis until the 80s.
Brian: Yes.
Katherine: Yes. We're very new in this trauma world. Yes.
We're all very new to this. This is a new, new territory for all of us. Did you, did you find the
Brian: date? Amazon says the publication date is 2005, but that seems late to me. I feel like it was before that. It has a very nice
Katherine: cover.
Brian: It does! Which is why I feel like it is. So now I'm opening my Kindle to look for the actual copyright date on the inside of it.
Yeah,
Katherine: maybe that was the most [00:03:00] recent
Brian: publication. That's what I'm wondering. Library, look for the yellow book right there. The yellow book. Yeah. That's what I call it. The yellow book. Copyright page. 1991. You were right. Boom. Boom. First time.
Katherine: First time. Yeah. So I guess that's the first time that that became something
Brian: that.
People and for reference to me that feels like 10 years ago, but it's 32 years ago.
Yes, I know that tells you how old I am feel like that long ago, but because it wasn't it wasn't
Katherine: Yeah, I know because i'm like i've lived Yeah, I've lived longer in the 2000s than I lived in the, in the, in the, in the 1900s, 1900s or so.
Brian: It's been a while. How dare you? Yes, we are, we are, we're getting, we're getting up there.
We're getting up there. Yes, yes we are. [00:04:00] Speaking of
Katherine: age, actually I have nothing. Nothing to say about it. I'm just trying to segue talking about broken to beloved, which is your summit that's coming up and to get us started. I would love to hear whatever you feel comfortable sharing about your spiritual abuse story and how can you, you said that you discovered this word, right?
Or this phrase, spiritual abuse, this term fairly recently, when did you, maybe just to start out, when did you first hear the term and did you have an aha moment like many of us
Brian: do? Gosh, when did I first hear the term? I honestly don't even know, but it was probably from one of the books that I started reading that validated that experience for me.
It might have been K. J. Ramsey's book The Lord is My Courage, and I read it more as a, oh, maybe this will help me in a [00:05:00] dark season, and that's one of my favorite psalms anyway, so, and then I didn't realize she was going to go into their whole spiritual abuse story, and then I am a person who reads all the footnotes and then goes and finds all the primary resources and reads those, so
Katherine: that's favorite reader.
They were like, we put this in here for you.
Brian: Yes. Well, and that's, I love footnotes. So, so because of her, I think is, is how I found the subtle power of spiritual abuse. And then from there, I went down the rabbit hole. I mean, something's not right. Redeeming Power, Church Called Tove, Try Softer, Narcissism Comes to Church, you know, all these books.
And now in the last two years, I've read over 40. Five books on that topic, which seems overwhelming because it kind of is, but it all came out of my personal experience, right? So I left my last church in July of 2021. I had been there for just about three years, I think. And I walked into that church.[00:06:00]
My wife and I have both moved here saying to each other it would be really nice if this works out And if it doesn't because we've already been hurt before I think we're done with ministry for a while Which feels kind of crazy to walk into a church saying that like this is the last stop Yes.
Basically. Yeah. Not indefinitely, not forever, but for a while, we're going to just give this a break because we're done. And so, you know, my story goes back over 10 years now, I think I worked at a Christian college as the marketing, as the graphic designer for the marketing department. I had also attended and graduated from that college, which isn't unusual.
But it was a completely different experience being a student there than it was being on staff there. And I didn't know what to do with the cognitive dissonance of looking at leaders that I respected and admired Who seemed to preach the gospel and talk about servant leadership and humility and all these things But then I would be sitting in meetings I was like I don't know who this person is who is so [00:07:00] angry and belittling and demeaning and authoritarian and all these pieces And so finally leaving that environment I need to ask you a
Katherine: question, just like following up on that, because I feel like that's such a common theme of like the, what you preach and what you teach is not who you are.
And I just, I just hear that all the time. And just was talking to someone about the other day about her father, who was a pastor and he. He was a pastor and he would preach these things about like parenting and then he would like not be that type of parent. And I'm just curious from the experience that you had what, what is your take on that of like, why, like, you obviously know what's right.
Where, where is this disconnect happening because you can preach it enough to convince people then what's happening here. What's your
Brian: [00:08:00] take on that? My take for the last two or three years now has been, it all boils down to the need for power and control. And this message is going to work and this message is going to work.
And so the secondary or maybe even tertiary word that comes out of that is optics. It all comes down to optics and the way things look and appear so that I can maintain power and control. And so if I can maintain this image of, then I will continue to have power and control and influence over these people as long as they don't see behind the curtain.
And if they do see behind the curtain, it doesn't matter because I control them anyway because I'm their boss, right? Or because I am their spiritual authority or leader or whatever it is. So I, it's wrecking. Man, there's so many ways I can go so the last pastor I had would often say things like when I first started.
It's like you have to recognize the hats that you wear when you walk into a room. So I know that I'm the [00:09:00] pastor. So I know that there's a power dynamic. So I had to be aware that when I'm leading a conversation or that there's going to be a shift in something somewhere. But then this is the same guy who would absolutely manipulate that power dynamic.
Yeah, or pretend that he was the servant or the victim or the low man on the totem pole is like you don't get it both ways. Like so. So I know that you cognitively know these things to be true. And yet I see you do the polar opposite. And then use those things to twist them to your advantage. Yes. In the way of whether ignorantly or intentionally, both are worse, harming someone else in the process.
Katherine: Yeah, and that is the crux of spiritual abuse and why it is devastating and so damaging and so complex and so confusing is like these people are preaching these good messages that they are aware are quote unquote good messages, but [00:10:00] using that intentionally to manipulate and control people. So then these good messages.
suddenly become infused with this thing that makes us just terrified.
Brian: Poison. It's poison.
Katherine: Yeah. And we're just, we're just like, I can't even engage with this, even though some of this stuff is really good, you know, that. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and yet it just causes this. Massive cavern of, of just fear and doubt and trauma.
Brian: Yes, I think that's where a lot of the confusion comes from, too, is because, because so much of it is truth, right? Or is based on quote, good intentions or scripture or whatever it is, but then you see it manipulated and twisted. So now you don't know what to believe or what's true or good anymore.
Right, and you can't
Katherine: trust good people who are saying absolutely, it's like absolutely walk into a room and you're like, are they good or [00:11:00] not, you know, just, just being able to trust, even just what people say and like, and then you're kind of in evangelicalism and church culture, you like you walk into a church and and everyone's believing the same thing.
Well, Are, are they, are they, are we, are we all on the same page here? I talked to someone the other day that like teaches their children just because someone is a pastor doesn't mean they're interpreting scripture actually accurately. And I was like, okay, that's a very wise thing to teach your child, but so sad that you're saying.
has led you to teach that to your child.
Brian: Yeah. Yeah. Same. Well, and I've heard, I've heard parents and other people just like, because normally we instruct our kids to pay attention or listen to the grownups. And I've heard other grown up, other adults and friends say, it's like, actually, that's not always true because grownups won't always tell you the right thing to do, or they might be wanting to hurt you in some kind of way.
And it's like, I hate that we have to teach our kids that, but it's, that's [00:12:00] the way of the world today. And it's just really unfortunate and sad and grieving.
Katherine: Yes. When you're allowed to be afraid of Santa Claus. Yes.
Brian: Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Yes. That's okay if you're afraid. So trust your gut on that one.
Yeah. So anyway, so I went through that experience three times in three different environments. Three times. The first time, not necessarily in a row, but very close. So the first time at a college with an older leader, mentor, figure, admired. Second time with a, someone who very young and then I had a short break for about two years and then ended up where I was now with someone who's basically my contemporary.
But it's just getting it, getting hit from all sides of it. And I had had enough. So when we left, when I left the church in July of 21, I was like, I am absolutely done for a while and I've got to figure all of this out because I don't know why it keeps happening to me, you know, a result of all the gas lighting is like, it must be my fault.
So it must be something wrong in the denominator. [00:13:00] Exactly. And we had already been seeing our counselor therapist for a while. So we just kind of dove into the topic head first. It's like, I just, I'm in a tailspin. I don't know what to do. Like, I don't know which way is up right now, and I just help. Just help.
And she, she is a trauma informed therapist, which was extreme. I'm grateful for, because that's not why we started going to her. But that helped to process all of this stuff and then finding these books and finding these resources and chasing the rabbit holes got me to the place was like, okay, I can name spiritual abuse.
I can define it. I can name trauma and define it. And after about a year and a half. Of doing that work and processing through the trauma and the abuse. I was like, I think I might be in a place where I feel like I'm doing better and I'm not doing great, but I'm definitely better than I was. And I think I actually have a framework for how I want to help other people because everywhere around me, I see people dealing with the same thing.
And I hate that we're all here.
Katherine: [00:14:00] Absolutely. Did you have, when you were like doing research, did you have something that you, how are you defining it at the time? You just calling it church hurt. What were you Googling?
Brian: What were the things that you? Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, I think it starts with church hurts.
That's kind of the phrase that people hear. And then once I got my brain around the term spiritual abuse, I was like, Oh, okay. And then of course everyone quotes, the body keeps a score. So I forced myself through that one. And then through that one learned, learned trauma and then found books on religious trauma and started doing that whole thing.
So just coming up with definitions and just kind of collecting all these in a master Google doc for my brain and figuring it out from there.
Katherine: Yeah. Yeah. And then at what point did you say? Yeah. So you said that I want to help people and help make sense of this. Where did the vision for broken to beloved come from?
Cause last year was the first year, right? April, wait, I guess that's this year, right? [00:15:00]
Brian: Yeah, it is. Yeah. April of this year. Yeah. 20, 23 at the time. So it didn't start as broken into beloved. It started as a six week cohort, which I call through, which is based on the children's book. Going on a bear hunt because we can't go around it.
Can't go over it. You just got to go through it. Right. And that came up from a friend, Amy. I was speaking at her summit. She does an Enneagram summit and I also do Enneagram coaching, but she said, what do you want to talk about? I was like, this sounds crazy, but. Do you want to talk like, can I talk about like spiritual abuse?
She goes, what? We have to do that. And so it just got all my wheels turning and then that's what kind of turned into the cohort. So I, I created a framework for a six week cohort to lead people. You know, and the story of that is like, because I over identified myself as broken for so long, I literally walked into this last church interview with the pastors and elders and said, Listen, they were like, hey, why should we hire you?
And my answer was, well, actually, you [00:16:00] don't want to hire me because I'm damaged goods. Let me just disqualify myself to you now because you don't want me because I'm broken and I'm really damaged. So you don't want me here. And so I recognize that I was wearing that as my identity. And so through KJ Ramsey's book, through all these other books that identified Wade Mullin, something's not right and all these other things, it's like, Oh, okay, so maybe I'm not the problem.
Yeah, maybe there's stuff broken in the system and it's not to say I'm not blameless for a lot of things because I certainly am but it was Developing a framework for what does it look like to move out of my brokenness and to actually name the things that have happened to Me because we can't heal what we can't name.
So naming things is really important Recognizing where I am in time and space so that I can pull myself to the present and recognize when I'm safe when I'm not When I'm triggered or activated when I'm not And then using all the polyvagal theory stuff that she includes in there. And then [00:17:00] recognizing how embodiment is so important and breath practices and mindfulness things and moving forward so that we can recognize, identify, and then embrace our belovedness as our actual identity, not our brokenness.
So the cohort came first in October of 2022. It went really, really well. I did it again in January of 23, which is the beginning of the year that we're recording. And so coming out of those two cohorts, I was like, man, it seems like there's an audience for this and a need for it. And all the books that I have read have done a really great job defining terms for me.
They do a good job of validating experiences and telling stories. I've read almost nothing that offers what now? Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Like, I just don't know what to do. Like, okay, great. Thanks for sharing the information, but what do I actually do now? Cause I still feel stuck. So the whole point of the broken to beloved summit, which came from the bookends of the cohort of starting broken and ending beloved [00:18:00] was to invite all the authors that I had read and the resources that I had found online, get them in one place and just say, great.
What now? What now? What now? And to make it practical, right? So the whole tagline I use for everything is finding a pathway toward healing and wholeness. When
Katherine: you were describing yourself as broken when you would walk into these interviews, what did that mean to you? Was that yeah, expound on what that meant and then how is that showing up for
Brian: you?
I don't know if I've ever been asked that question. I just felt broken. Like my whole brain was. I'm just unsure of what to believe or what was right or wrong. I'm also an Enneagram One, which is very right wrong, black white minded. I always think I have to do things the right way. So for me It was always a, well, if I was fired from this place, or if I had to leave because I was so toxic, what did I do wrong?
But other people [00:19:00] loved me, and it was just this group, so maybe it was, maybe it was them, but maybe it was me, but I'm not sure, and I think I'm really good at my job. And people tell me I'm good at my job, but the pastor just told me I'm not and that he needs to replace me because the board told him so even though they've never given me feedback in any of my reviews that anything needed to change when I've been asking for them for years.
So it's, it's all that kind of stuff that in your brain messes with you. It's also the the second place that we left, we were friends with. The pastor and his wife, we graduated together. We were alumni together. I was like, we thought we were friends. We hung out at each other's houses. And then to do something like that and to feel so stabbed in the back, really It was a, it was just kind of whiplash, right?
It's like, what, what, what happened there? And so what's wrong with me and what's wrong with my relationships? Cause I thought we were okay, but apparently not because then this happens. So walking into this last interview to just say, Hey, I'm damaged goods. I'm broken. I mean, that's really what it was. And then I had [00:20:00] had two years at another church where I.
Genuinely thrived for two years. And I was like, Oh, there's actually a different way to do things. Yeah. And I didn't realize that. And then we experienced more trauma. One of our best friends passed away tragically in a car accident. And so that threw everything into tailspin and dealing with the aftermath of that.
So it was just kind of like, Hey, we're really not in a good place right now for a transition or for something to change. And yet I felt so. Bound is not the right word I'm looking for, but I'm going to use it by the whole idea of. If God wants to do something here, I don't want to close the door and say no.
And I don't say that to over spiritualize anything or myself, but it's just the words that came out of my mouth at the time. So we just kind of kept going with the process. And I remember the first several weeks slash months of having started this job,
just trying to be really vulnerable with people and honest, just like, listen, I, I don't come here pretending I'm perfect in any [00:21:00] way I'm really broken right now and we need help. Just so you know that, and I might have some answers or help for you, but I'm coming at it from a position of brokenness and the more I do this work, the more I recognize how okay that really is.
Katherine: Yeah, and it kind of sounds like as you're describing. What brokenness was to you? It sounds like trauma, but it sounds like internalized trauma of this is somehow my fault, like these outside messages and this trauma that I'm experiencing is due to something.
Brian: Yeah. Potentially. Well, and isn't that part of the toxic theology that a lot of churches teach is like that you are responsible for your sins and how they label everything as sin.
So if something bad happened in your life, it must be your fault because you weren't holy enough. You didn't pray enough. You didn't whatever [00:22:00] enough. Right. And it's like not. Not taking into account any of the effects of abuse where the abused actually did nothing. It's like when a woman gets raped, Oh, what were you wearing?
How did you contribute? What perfume do you have? It's like, come on, really? But that's where I was mentally, emotionally, all the things.
Katherine: Yeah, and that thin layer of, like, you must be sinning or God is, like, sanctifying you and is allowing these happen, these things to happen to, like, grow your faith or, you know, and, like, getting to that place, naming, as you said, getting to that place where you just, you're just able to point out it and to say this was not okay, period.
Like should never have happened. We should never should never have had to go through this like this was never an okay thing when you got to your church, the last church and you like was this the church that you were [00:23:00] saying I am broken and I am damaged goods. Yes. And then that
Brian: obviously didn't go did not pan out.
Was
Katherine: that used against you
Brian: was what part used against me? The fact that you were
Katherine: open about your brokenness.
Brian: Yes and no, I would say by the pastor. Yes, because I think in the kindest way I can say this possible, he's a master manipulator. So I think he knew us coming in and me saying those things up front and they pitched themselves very much as, oh, well, we are a healing church.
We're a place where people come so they can just receive and sit back and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right. And but then, you know, six months, two months, four months, two years later, they're saying, Oh, you're still praying for that thing. You're not healed yet. Are you not over that yet? Right? It's that kind of stuff.
And so those are the major red flags that go up. It's like, maybe this is not such a great place.
Katherine: Absolutely. Absolutely. So pitching themselves as a healing place and then, and then not. [00:24:00] Not so
Brian: much. Yeah, maybe you used to be but not so
Katherine: much today. How would you say? broken to beloved is Creating a space that you would say is just like healthier than that Like how how are you seeking to make that a healthy space for
Brian: people?
Mm hmm. That's a great question. Thank you I don't know cuz I'm still figuring it out. One of the first words that comes to mind is honesty and trying to be honest about Whatever it is that we are feeling or naming or experiencing because one of the things I've learned is that when we try to push away or repress any of those things, we often get ourselves in trouble because it's something is trying to be expressed there.
And it doesn't mean that we. Allow rage or ranting to take place just because because there are safe places to do to do that too, but probably not within a general community, right? Within an intimate relationship, [00:25:00] maybe, but not within a an open space. So I think the honesty piece is one of them. I think the openness is another.
Another word that comes to mind is kindness. I think there was an interview I did last year with David Gate, who does all that kind of typewriter poetry, which I love. And he said something that really has stuck with me ever since. And it's this idea that you can have all these progressive, or not progressive, all these fundamentalist Christians.
Or conservatives or evangelicals or whatever you want to call them who go through this process of abuse and or trauma and then deconstruction and then leave the church or whatever it is, but they don't actually examine or change anything and they just switch over to progressive liberalism or progressivism or whatever it is, and they're still fundamentalists at heart.
Absolutely. And I think the fundamentalist piece, the certainty that so many people carry. Doesn't make room for curiosity [00:26:00] and kindness which I think embodies a lot of what I'm trying to do is to be open and curious and kind because I also see voices online who just come across as angry all the time.
It's like, I get it. There's room for that. I'm angry too. But, and there are times that I drive by the church and I'm like, can we just burn it all down? Sure. Right. I feel all that, but it doesn't, I don't feel helped or served by it. Yeah. The Psalms, when I did an interview this morning, and the Psalms are 75 to 80 percent imprecatory and lament, so there's plenty of room for honest, raw emotion, but there's also a time and place for it, and it doesn't have to be public, and I don't, actually, here's, here's a good thing, I don't need everyone to agree with me.
Because your experience is your own and you need to figure out how you're going to process it. Here's how I've processed mine and I'm not going to prescribe anything to you that you should do it this way too. But I'm going to approach it with openness [00:27:00] and kindness and curiosity and hopefully safety.
Yeah.
Katherine: Yeah. And I think like that. Openness, kindness, curiosity can create that safety and, and, and having that space where people can come on their own journey and find their own, their own, yeah, like find their own, their own path. And, and, and that's also just sort of like, Anti the opposite of what we experienced in the church of like, only me, the person with the, you know, title can tell you what is helpful and what, what God is really saying and putting that agency back into each individual person is sweet.
Not what we were taught church and we were taught not to trust ourselves in the church context. And so, yeah, I love that, that openness, openness, kindness, and curiosity. I love it. What are some of your hopes and [00:28:00] dreams for the summit?
Brian: I hope that it's helpful. I hope that it feels practical for people. I hope that people walk away with a sense of, I mean, the three words I use most often are hope, healing, and wholeness. And I say that knowing that there is real harm done when others try to prescribe a timeline to your healing. That healing is not a destination, right?
And I think Laura Anderson just wrote about this in her book. It's like healing is not a destination. It's not an arrival point. It's something that we are just Doing probably for the rest of our lives. So when I say that, it's not like, Hey, show up to the summit and you will be healed. Absolutely not. But I do hope it gives you really practical tools that you can walk away with and say, Oh, this thing will help me.
Right. This thing will help me to take a step. And so we had 1, 200 people register last year, which blows my mind for trying something for the first time. [00:29:00] So I it would be great to have as many or more. Not because of numbers, because God knows I hate numbers because so many churches are driven by it. But the idea that people are helped.
And and moved in that direction of healing and wholeness and hope, I think so many of us who go through this kind of abuse or trauma walk away feeling so isolated, broken, like you're saying, with a lack of agency or not empowered that my hope is that you walk away with a sense of hope, feeling empowered and a sense of agency to take control of something in your life because so much of it has been stripped away from you.
I think those are the kinds of things I hope for. Yeah,
Katherine: absolutely. And I think even just the reality that we can like walk into a space and it's, you know, 18 or whatever speakers all speaking on something similar. And so there's this awareness that like, at least all of these people have, have, have some experience with this thing.
I've gone through this or understand this and that [00:30:00] validation of like, yes, oh, people are talking about this. And people see this as something that is really important and causes a lot of pain and deserves attention, deserves an entire summit. I think that that in itself is, is So validating and so helpful.
What's, what is some information about this? What can you tell us about how folks can find the summit register if they're ready for it?
Brian: Sure. We do have dates. We will be January 23rd through 26th. Last year was 3 days. I learned that was too short to pack that many speakers talking about trauma and abuse. So I'm spreading it out over 4 days and I'm inviting less speakers. So it's not so overwhelming every day.
If you go to BrokenToBeloved. org slash subscribe, you can join my mailing list, which is where I'll probably send information first. Or you can just follow me on Instagram, which are where I post when I have time to[00:31:00] at BrokenToBeloved.
Okay. All
Katherine: right. I'll all of this information in the show notes
Brian: so folks can read it. Thank you.
Katherine: And I'm very excited to be there and to be a part of it, watch all of the speakers. And is there anything else that you want to share about broken to beloved the cohort. Your journey,
Brian: anything? No, I, I mean, we are like you, a 501 C three.
So if you're looking for someone to support or an organization, this is the work that we're trying to do. So you can just go to same broken to beloved. org and you can find all the stuff there. I'm super grateful for you and your work and having stumbled across you last year. I, I love and support the stuff that you're doing as well.
Grateful to have you at the summit twice now. Um, And just love doing the work with you.
Katherine: Yeah, so I'm glad to partner in this with you as well. Thanks so
Brian: much. Thank you.
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Forgiveness has often been used in the church to sideline and silence victims, either by perpetrators intent on controlling their victims or by systems of people who believe theyâre doing the right thing.
Connie Baker, author of Traumatized by Religious Abuse and a therapist who works with survivors of religious trauma, joins Katherine for this important discussion on a topic that is nuance, personal, and definitely emotionally charged.
REGISTER FOR RETREATCON
Uncertain is a podcast of Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If youâre enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus.
Transcript is unedited for typos and misspellings
Katherine: [00:00:00] So I'm very excited to have this conversation. This is like, I have like a handful of conversations that ever since Uncertain started that I wanted to do, and one on forgiveness is one of them.
Connie: Yes. I love that. I'm so glad.
Katherine: Forgiveness is a, I will probably talk more in this episode than I normally do because this is a subject that I am very passionate about the way that forgiveness has been misused and then also having a really genuine experience of forgiveness. Yes. That I feel like was real. Yes. And looks nothing like what I was told. Forgiveness is
Connie: Right, right. To me, so much of it is dismantling what we think it is. So yeah. I'm excited to talk with you Katherine.
I mean, you're as much of an expert in this area as I am. It's like, you know, I do have some very strong feelings, which I think are very compatible. Yes. I, I think, but, and I've, you know, I've done, I've [00:01:00] done 18 years of clinical work to say, Hmm, I got some reasons why I think what I do, but I just want, I mean, yes, to me, let's make this baby a discussion.
Katherine: So yes, it's a, it's a convo, it's a conversation and one that we need to have because it's just, it's still so misused and I've had so many people throughout my life come at me to want to make sure a, that I have forgiven or that I want to forgive or that I'm not bitter. Right. But the standard of assessing.
Whether or not I'm bitter, have forgiven is whether or not I talk about what happened.
Connie: Totally. Shut up. If you're, if you're not bitter, you can't talk.
Katherine: Exactly. And so to, to realize that most people think forgiveness and bitterness means don't talk about it. And if you've really forgiven, then you don't think about it.
And it's just like in the past. Yeah. Something that never happened. So we're gonna get into this. I [00:02:00] love it. Let's do the, the kinda outline that I was thinking for this episode is as just kind of following the outline of your chapter in your book, the F word, which I love, and it's probably what I'll call the, the episode first talk about.
What forgiveness is not, and some examples what forgiveness is. Some examples, and then I would love to end, you have a self-evaluation at the end of the chapter, and I would love to kind of end with us sort of doing that and like how that might work for people. I have it written down so I could read it to you.
Connie: I just like, ok. Remind me. What are some words? Forgiveness that I prefer? Oh yeah. Do I need to, I like my, I like my questions. Do I need to forgive? Do I want to forgive? If I've decided to take a short step, what is my next step?
Good. I'm happy with that. Let's keep the book. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's keep the book available.
Katherine: Okay. Alright. Let's start with what forgiveness is not how, what would you say? Forgiveness is not. And [00:03:00] then just like maybe an example of how you would describe that.
Connie: Yes. Oh, forgiveness is not, and I love that we're starting here.
I love it because Katherine, you and I both know, there's so many things people think it is. I think first of all, when we're talking about religious abuse, forgiveness is not something that can be demanded or required of someone who's hurt us. It's not no period. Forgiveness, I think theologically as well as psychologically is something freely given.
Yes. Something that is, that comes from the person's coercion. If I heard a person and tell them, you've gotta forgive me. It just kind of disintegrates the [00:04:00] whole idea of what forgiveness, the, a beautiful forgiveness cannon should be. So there's one thing, and I think you, you and I both know so many examples of how, and maybe this is just a great place to start, how this is leveraged .
By specifically leadership that, but it's also systemic. It's a two level thing where the leaders can say, you've gotta forgive me, which has all kinds of implications for them maintaining control. Yep. Because we'll get into what it's not here in a minute too. It's not necessarily reconnecting or reestablishing a relationship with that person.
We'll get there in a minute, but when it's demanded or our peers will say, you have to forgive because they are part of a system. Yeah. That supports that and, and says, you've gotta forgive and you've gotta get back into an intimate, [00:05:00] trusting relationship with that person if you've actually forgiven.
And so that demand and requirement for forgiveness, to me is number one. It is, forgiveness is not something that you can demand or require. So that I think is a foundation because those of us who have been around and probably listening to this podcast, know what I mean by leaders demanding that and systems that require it.
So, when a peer tells you you've gotta forgive. But they are speaking for the church authority, i e God. It is still a power play. Yeah. It's still a power play and whether intended or not, doesn't matter. It's still a power play. So that's the first thing. Any other thoughts on that?
Katherine: Just, the verses that are popping into my head are the 70th times seven verse and you know, [00:06:00] forgive as God has forgiven you and the, as far as the east is from the West, God will remember your sins know more. And those are the verses that are used to support this belief system.
And it's so convincing. It's right, so convincing, and I'm so glad you said systemic, because it is systemic, it's embedded into it. When those verses pop up as they did just now for me when the forces pop up, what would you say to someone, how, how, how do they combat these things that have used?
Connie: I say that is an, that is probably the question I.
And I want, if we can remember, maybe I should take a note. Let's ask that after we've gone through some of these ideas, honestly what it is Yes. What it's not can what it's, I think both of those, because the problem with those verses is [00:07:00] these people are bringing a definition and assumptions .
Around what forgiveness is. So I wanna circle back to that.
Katherine: Does that sound okay? Yeah, no, definitely. Let's circle back in the, the. The way that this is like spiritually abusive is those verses like even that verse, far as the east is from the west, will I remember your sins know more.
It sounds like this just like, oh, beautiful, wonderful. You know, wiping the slate clean. And it starts from this place of just like this. Like really, you know? Oh, of course I want someone to do that for me. So of course I'm gonna do that to someone else. And that reality that it's weaponized. And when forgiveness is not what forgiveness is not, it's not a weapon and it's not meant to be used for coercion.
Connie: [00:08:00] Yes. And control.
Katherine: Yes. Or silencing. So maybe we don't know what it is. Maybe we don't have a definition or anything, but if we feel like someone is coming at us, And, and trying to coerce us into an emotion or an action that doesn't feel aligned with the con with what happened in a situation of abuse.
Maybe we can't even name it as abuse, but if we're feeling coerced into that response, then that's just a pause. Just a pause right there and just say, something's not right.
Connie: Huge pause. Something is deeply not okay. I think that's, we can say with confidence. The other thing that comes to mind is the way I hear forgiveness talked about in Christian circles. It's a cure-all. Yes. For the damage inflicted. In other words, I always use this example. That [00:09:00] feels a little absurd. And I use it cuz I want it to feel absurd. If you are going through an intersection on a green light and you are slammed into the driver's side with an a, a driver who is drunk and it slams in and crushes your upper arm, your ribcage, your hip cracks, your femur busts, and you've got, and you have some internal bleeding, they rush you to the hospital and they do all these surgeries and they're fixing you up step by step, and somebody comes to visit and they say, oh my gosh, how are you feeling? Well, ooh, okay, but boy am I still in a lot of physical pain. And the person looks at you and says, well, have you forgiven the drunk driver?
Katherine: You like it, it's just literally the same thing.
Connie: It's emotional pain. Yes. [00:10:00] In other words, there's this bizarre assumption that if someone deeply, deeply wounds you that when you forgive, you're gonna be great. You're not gonna feel pain, you're not gonna have any repercussions, you're not gonna have any trauma.
You're not going to have PTSD. Your brain wiring will not be affected because if you just forgive All will be beautifully taken care of. And you shouldn't be sitting there in the hospital with all those bones broken if you've actually forgiven. And of course, that sounds so absurd and bizarre to us and correct.
It's crazy making Yeah. To say that, that forgiveness is just gonna fix it all and I'll feel great enough once I forgive. Now you and I both know, we were talking about something that both in the secular and religious realm, forgiveness is well studied. It's a beautiful, good thing done, [00:11:00] inappropriate places.
So this isn't, we're not down on forgiveness, but it has, it has huge limitations to trauma recovery. It is one piece of a very big pie, I think, of eventual trauma recovery.
Katherine: It's a piece of the pie and it is reductionist to focus everything on recovery around forgiveness and to make that, to make that a requirement even for recovery.
I think it's like a separate thing and it is. Yet, it's always, I was watching the documentary on Michael Jackson's victims and Oprah Winfrey does an interview, like a follow-up interview to, to talk to the two men that were featured in the documentary. Two of Michael Jackson's victims and Oprah Winfrey has done a lot to raise awareness about mental health.
She does understand [00:12:00] a lot about trauma, but she ends up asking these two survivors if they have forgiven, and I just felt very defeated at the end that she would bring that up to these two people and, and sort of made it as like a marker of Right. The field. They were right. And the final question also carries the ultimate amount of weight.
Connie: Like not Okay. No.
Katherine: Yeah. And, and like basically ending with, you still got some. Room to grow, you still, you still got some places to go. You're not fully healed yet because you haven't, you can't answer that question with this life. Right. You know, or, and, and then one of the survivors was like, I don't even really know what that word means right now.
Oh, oh, good for them. I'm really glad that they said that. But I think they were sort of portrayed as like, well, until you kind of [00:13:00] know what that means, you, you're still not healed, which they're not. Right. And, and we are not. And, and it does kind of, Draw a line in the sand like, once you can say you have forgiven, you've passed the line and now you're healed. Which is a whole other subject.
Connie: oh, totally. Yes, they do. They have overlap. Sure. Aren't they the same thing? Absolutely not. Yeah. There's, it's that, you know, that person laying in the hospital bed may not even have a big, have a hard time forgiving. Maybe it's like they're an addict. They have issues.
Stuff happens. There, depending on the person, it, there, you know, there's a range of how people respond, which are all okay. It's also okay to rage and be angry at that driver for a long time and if that's okay too. But does that mean that person is [00:14:00] out of the hospital because they kind of we're able, for whatever reason, their psyche could let it go.
Katherine: O know, I know. And it is as, I love the example that you gave of just the person being in the hospital because like forgiveness doesn't mean you no longer hurt. No, it doesn't mean you're no longer in pain and that you're not, you know, going to therapy for years, upon years, upon years to deal with the damage that was caused.
Connie: The other thing that comes to mind is forgiveness often in our circles is, you know, or past circles, whatever. For some of us, it is equated with some really important delicate areas, and that is forgiveness is often equated with trust, intimacy and the big word reconciliation in Christian circles, which [00:15:00] all three of those have.
Have over, you know, those are, those are kind of a group of things. And let me say this right off the bat, I'll stand by This. Trust in healthy people is always earned. Always earned. It's like, and, and they're can, we might throw out a little bit and trust somebody and see how they do with it, but only un unhealthy people, indiscriminately trust and, and, and, and as I say that, yeah, I was a recovering one of those.
I'm a recovering one, you know, I used to trust innately and just you're saying, but forgiveness. Is in a whole different realm. Intimacy, trust and reconciliation in, in my mind, should always be earned.
That is not dependent on me completely. It's [00:16:00] 50% dependent on me. 50% dependent on that other person and there, and how safe I feel with them. So forgiveness, a lot of times, especially when it's being leveraged, abusively says, you need to forgive me. Now the funny thing is, if that leader saying you need to forgive me, has no stake in controlling the other person, why are they even saying it?
Because if forgiveness in their mind means you can come or go in this relationship and I need to re-earn your trust, they're not gonna tell you you have to forgive them. If, you know, and so I think those of us who've been told that we have to forgive, need to say, okay. First of all, what do they mean by forgive?
And first of all, you can't cannot demand it of me. But then in our own mind to say, well, maybe I'll want to forgive eventually, what does that mean? And the implicit demand [00:17:00] in forgiveness is you reestablish a relationship for me, with me, and then for the purpose. Of me being able to continue to control and have power.
Yeah. And they're never gonna say those when never, there's some cultish situations that absolutely do say that most of them are nuanced, nicer, respectable institutions are not going to say, so I can control you. Right. But they're gonna put it in spiritual language so that I can help you be who God wants you to be, so that I can influence you toward God.
So, I mean, all the words that are used for control. That is one thing I, that's probably one another huge thing that I just wish people could hear and say, oh, forgiveness is utterly, forgiveness is something I freely give to anybody I want. And I can keep myself safe doing it. I'm, I have, I can have boundaries and safety and still be free of that person and have let it go.
Whatever [00:18:00] words you wanna use for forgiveness, we can talk about those, or other words to use, because I think you're titling this the F word, right? Yes. Yeah, because that's that. Because a lot of people go, I don't even wanna use that word. Yeah. It's just too loaded. Like utterly understandable. Totally. So if I've already let this go and I feel free, that does not mean I have to be back in a relationship.
So that's on that trust note.
Katherine: So a person does not trust indiscriminately. Could we also say that a healthy person does not demand trust? And so if someone is demanding, even if it's through the language of forgiveness or not, Hey, I'm the pastor. Hey, I'm the therapist. Hey, I'm the blah, blah, blah, and I deserve your trust simply by my title.
Or simply because of God ordained authority, that that is not a healthy posture if they just expect you to trust. And if I come into a [00:19:00] space, and, and I've been in this situation before where it's typically with men who are just so just have their feelings hurt when there's some reticence, especially if they're like in authority position and, and, and make my story all about them, which is exactly what's happening in this twisting of forgiveness, is centering what that person did to injure you around the person who did the injuring and not the person.
Who is injured, where it should be, where that spotlight should be on. Absolutely.
Connie: And you know, I don't wanna get too far off of this, but I just gotta throw it in here. Often it is an authority figure. Often it is male, but here, and not, but, but, and here's another context that I see is the demand for transparency, like within small groups.
[00:20:00] You are supposed to be able to share your soul. You're supposed to lay yourself open to us. That's the rules of this game. In this group, you, we are all going to be open and vulnerable and authentic. And in other words, you have to share things you're uncomfortable with and don't feel like. You know, the group has built up enough trust, yet that demand can come in a systemic, like a small group or a, or even a large group sharing, I guess.
But I see this in small groups too. This demand for trust Is just, it, it, it's insidious and it, especially when there's a need to control,
Katherine: Yeah. And like with any spiritually abusive system, there's the, there is the, the good people who are doing it because they just wanna be good.
And someone told them, this is what good people do. And which is even the, even the forgiveness thing. Like, yeah, someone told me God wants you to forgive and I want you to do what God wants you to do. So you need to forgive. And they're, [00:21:00] they're good human beings and they're just misguided. And then there are people who are deliberately leveraging, and you used the word leverage at the very beginning, leveraging things like forgiveness and reconciliation and trust and intimacy to deliberately control.
Yes. And they both exist in that same system.
Connie: They totally do. And the hugely unfortunate thing is they do equivalent damage. Yes. It's like it's like, you know, as you know, probably my, my clients and people I speak to will say how. How much of this is deliberate? And it's like, well, that's a great question.
And there's a huge gray area in there of awareness and non-awareness on the part of abusers. And ultimately it just unfortunately doesn't matter. It still does the same. It's like whether I just happen to be distracted and plow into a car, or whether I'm drunk driving and plow into a car, it's the same level of damage.
And so [00:22:00] that, it's unfortunate, but yes. Oh, man. You know, Katherine, the only other thing that I wanna put on what it is not, and this is a little controversial, and we're gonna nuance it a little bit, all right? And that is, I feel like forgiveness is not essential for healing. There you go. So I agree with you.
And there again, and, and there again, I, I put that out there and I go, okay, of co I'm gonna nuance that. But I do think there's parts of that. This don't need to be nuanced. I have seen people. Well, I've certainly seen this. People never go through any formal forgiveness and be 100%. Well, now sometimes I think they kind of processed and let stuff go as they went almost unconsciously, which I think can happen with forgiveness.
I think I was part of my story. There were a few things I needed to forgive. But overall, see I forgive too quick that, that, that was part of my story, which laid me wide open for abuse is the trust, the Oh, it's okay. You know, there's [00:23:00] a downside to quick forgiveness, first of all can often be incomplete and denial rather than forgiveness.
But we'll talk about that. But yeah, that's, those are things, and we can talk more about the whole, it's not a requirement for healing.
Katherine: And as we get into talking about what it is not being a requirement for healing. And then I really, really, really appreciate that you said that it's, the damage is the same, whether someone's intent was good or not.
And putting that back in the car accident situation, like whether I really intended to run over you or not, it still caused the damage.
Katherine: Forgiveness as we step into the, what is it? Is forgiveness easier if the person meant to do it or didn't?
Connie: I'm thinking that's such a good question, Katherine, and I think there's a wide variety of answers to that because forgiveness is so complex.
It, it, it, it's all kind. There's all kinds of psychological, I think, mechanisms that go on with forgiveness and. In some ways, well here's a great therapist. Denture. In some ways yes. In some ways, no. So, cause I, you know, I, I think there is, I [00:25:00] think there is a part there. It can, can be a little easier to let go if you can see some sincerity of motivation.
Yeah. And go. Alright, that said, I'm gonna still come back to it. Still did the same damage. And so my car is still in it and I'm still in ICU. No matter whether you just happen to glance on the side of the road and you're completely, you know, awake and sober and not looking at your phone, it still did damage.
And so I think there's a mixture. I also think it, let's put it this way, I think it's kind of individual. I'm thinking about the several people that I've needed to forgive in my story. Some of them were just a lot easier to let go of. Yeah. Interestingly, it was easier for me to forgive my sexual abuser than it was the church leadership that kicked me out.
Yeah. Cuz I kind of viewed my sexual abuser as pathetic. [00:26:00] He was powerful, but he was an alcoholic and, you know, he was falling off a cliff and grabbed my hair and took me with him. And that does not excuse it. But I also, just because of my framework about the person It's like I just like you got to a place where you potentially.
Katherine: Well, of course he did that kind of like a Yeah.
Connie: It's like, yeah. That's kind of where your whole thing was leading. Yeah. And it was utterly not okay. It was so wrong and so, but there again, I'm thinking of my story and, and these different psychological processes that I went through and how that happened with different people .
And who, how that intersects with who I am and my personality and my framework on life. It's a complicated process and so, I don't know. What do you think about that? What do you think about whether it's easier with intent? That's a great question.
Katherine: I think that it definitely impacts [00:27:00] whether or not you, you remain in a relationship or re engage in a relationship.
I think it's less about forgive or not forgive, and more about whether or not I will end up trusting them again if I see. And then also even some, and I just think of the people who have used forgiveness as a way to kind of silence me. And they're doing, coming from a place of like, they think that this is what God expects and like, this is what I need to do to be a godly person, and so I need to forgive.
And so they're kind of in that framework. and those people, most of them I'm still in relationship with. And the way that they handled that was painful. Yeah. But I can see that they were genuinely trying to help. And so it does make it a little easier to just continue to engage with [00:28:00] them.
I'm just thinking of a couple people specifically. And, and, and this comes down to how I would define forgiveness which is I. I, and, and I think you even describe it a little bit like this in your book is a release of responsibility. And that's how it looked for me when I, so my main abuser.
I have a lot of people who have abused me in the church context. But. And when I realized, like forgiveness happened without me consciously thinking about it, like, and I, when I realized that I had forgiven him, it coincided hand in hand with me suffering my relationship permanently with him.
And yes, it's completely opposite of anything that I was ever taught. And, and that's when I say it was a release of responsibility. When I released responsibility, the only reason why I stayed in a [00:29:00] relationship with him was because of damaging teaching about forgiveness. Yeah. And feeling like I needed to stay in a relationship with him so that I could always leave the door open for him to repent and always give him access to me.
So just in case he changed. Yeah. And when I finally realized and acknowledged the magnitude of the damage that he had done, that was when I was like, we're done not engaging anymore. This is a dangerous person and every time I'm in contact it reopens things and we're done. And so I severed that relationship and then that release that a lot of people describe with forgiveness of just, whew.
Yeah. That's when that came of just, yeah. I'm sorry. I am no longer responsible for saving him, changing him, [00:30:00] and then I'm also no longer responsible for the damage that he caused. Hmm. That's it.
Connie: He can deal with that. You're not releasing him of responsibility. You're releasing yourself of responsibility.
Katherine: absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And now, and so, like, engaging with someone who, whose intent was malicious versus someone whose intent was genuinely care. Like one you can work with, one you can't.
Connie: Right. And even, and there's also another angle for me in the reconciliation piece, which we're talking about forgiveness, which is different, but the reconciliation piece is also that they own the damage done, even if they didn't intend to, but they're still justifying it under that old paradigm or their paradigm that caused them to do the damage to me, then they're not safe still because it's gonna happen again if they don't [00:31:00] become aware and see what happened and say, oh, I see the damage done and now I'm going to shift my frame of reference to not re, re, re re-injure.
So yeah. Yeah, yeah. I love that release of responsibility. Those are some really good words to say. Oh man. There are so many, there's so many good layers to that, Katherine. I love that. Yeah. A lot of times, I'll call it different things like well letting go, releasing, you know, if you wanna, if you wanna take it out of Christian Christianese releasing unwanted negative energy, this is about me getting rid of something, of some toxin I'm carrying.
Not arguing for a past or wishing for a different past and Yeah. You know, holding onto that demand or desire. So those are all things, probably my favorite that I like is the idea of [00:32:00] canceling a debt. Because I like it, because, well, here's what I do with my clients and here's what I've done in my life.
As they say, I just wanna forgive. I'm like, great. Because I just wanna be, I just wanna be free. I'm like, great. What I'd like you to do is, let's think about this in terms of a debt, and I would like you to write every offense On the left hand side. And I want you to describe a monetary value to that offense.
Katherine: Some offenses are smaller, some are million.
Connie: Yes. Yes. Man, I'm taking you to court. You know, and I want you to, I want you to literally go through every offense. And that's in, that in itself is an intense process and I think a therapeutic one because especially if they have a Christian background, so many of us want to sweep it under the rug and [00:33:00] call that forgiveness and say, well, they hurt me.
And I'm like, slow down. How, when? In what way? With, with what intent? Whatever you did to go down and have that ledger and that other ledger, how much did that cost you? And to me, I. Defining the massive cost. Especially when we're talking here, not little slights, the people, but huge lifetime damage people have done to us, especially in religious abuse.
That to me makes it very concrete and that where I'm like, no, I'm not gonna let you say, well, they hurt me cuz that can often be a sweeping under the rug and you gotta be ready to do this. A lot of PE people go, oh, that's a little too intense. I said, I honor that. No, no problem. And I'm like, let's just, you know, step back.
You know, I'm not gonna of course push somebody to do that, but for them to come back and have those ledgers and now [00:34:00] say forgiveness is, is looking at that final massive number and saying, I'm ready to cancel the debt. I'm ready to let go of it. I'm not gonna keep it in collections forever for myself emotionally to say, Nope.
That is what you owe me. That is absolutely what you owe me. And I'm letting it go. And, and I think there's some, there's freedom in that first to acknowledge the vastness of the debt. Because if we minimize it, I don't think that's true for Yes. Yeah. But if we say, no, this is the, this is such a big deal with all, its all it's particulars and I'm letting it go for me.
Yeah. Not for them. That's another issue. Forgiveness is not necessarily for them. For, for, it's for me.
Katherine: Yeah. And with that it is for me, forgiveness is for me, I get to decide when I could decide where I get to. If it really [00:35:00] is for me, then hundred percent I get to decide. And the releasing of that, or the letting go of that is, is about me.
Connie: 100%
Katherine: And adding the magnitude of the damage and acknowledging the magnitude of damage is needed, I think, for forgiveness to happen. Because if you're not acknowledging the magnitude of the damage, then you don't really know what, what you're letting go.
Connie: Right. That's exactly right. Yeah. You, you're saying, you're saying you're letting it go, but what is it?
Katherine: Right, exactly. And I think that like my forgiveness, that was like accidental because I had, I had just decided, Nope, he's not getting forgiven. He doesn't deserve it. Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, fuck you. Not, not doing it, not going there. And yes, so it was totally accidental in and getting to [00:36:00] that place of, of realizing how bad the damage was and realizing that this person was dangerous and, and severing that relationship.
And that was where that release came from. And, and not holding him accountable myself, because I don't, my job is not my job.
Connie: Well, and it's so great, what you just said too fits this metaphor in that I am not going to continue to let him take my money. Yep. I am not going to continue. Every encounter now costs me $1,500.
No, I'm done. You don't get anymore. And that's the, that's the No, I'm stopping the bleeding here. I'm stopping the debt bleed and I'm not into it. So yeah, those are, those are, I think, different. There's a lot of this is, I love it because there's so many ways to look at what this thing is.
Katherine: And even just the idea of [00:37:00] like that releasing of responsibility. Oh, shoot. My mind just went completely blank. So yes. If you have more to say, feel free. I completely lost it.
Connie: As I always say, it'll come back if it's needed. Right.
Katherine: Exactly. It'll, it'll pop back up
I guess I'm just like this, like thinking about forgiveness and it gets me really emotional and then my, my brain just, it's emotional.
Connie: Yeah.
Katherine: I'm just thinking of like the folks who have basically required forgiveness and like, means that you can't tell.
Ah, there it is. There it is. That it was, that's what it was. Story, story, story, story. Can't tell your story. That means that you don't tell your story. And that was like their litmus test of if you were bitter or not. And with that releasing of responsibility, for me, I became much more vocal about my story because I was no longer concerned about protecting my abuser and yes, no longer carrying that [00:38:00] responsibility to protect him.
But then also realizing I wanted to share my story and yes, my story, I can talk about it if I want and I can say absolutely. And it's, it's part of my healing process. It's. Also because I want to help people and I want other people to hear, hear these things and know that they're not alone. And that's for me, 100% for me.
And they're, my abuser like, role in that. And like, I don't, I don't think about, I used to, but I, I don't think about what is he gonna think of this? Yeah. If you hear this, is he, is he gonna change? Is he, you know, is he gonna be angry? Is he gonna, you know, I, I'm not thinking about how he's gonna feel about me telling my story anymore cuz he's just not a part of it.
He's not a fact. What agreed him?
Connie: Yes. Oh, beautiful. [00:39:00]
Katherine: Yes, but not a, a linear thing because the desire for revenge, I'm like, is there for revenge? Does that like cancel out forgiveness? Because I'm like, I still, I still, I still think about, I still like do kickboxing and I still picture picture his face when I'm kickboxing.
Connie: Another important point, Katherine, and that is if I know you just brought a great cultural subcultural framework in the church of saying if you tell the story, you're clearly still bitter. The other thing that comes up is if you're still angry, you're bitter and you haven't forgiven, and I'm like, okay.
First of all, I still, when I watch through the years my, the story that I've had several abuse stories, but the big one that's like in my book and stuff, I think about, this is now 33 years ago and I've watched through 33 years. Them hurt other people. Yeah. [00:40:00] And I get pissed. Yep. Every single time because it's not okay.
Is that bitterness? No, I just, my system does not like bitterness. Some people, and let me say this, I also wanna talk a little bit about how bitterness. Serves as a protection. Yeah. And that it's, and that I wanna give a lot of latitude there. Now, I do think bitterness eventually makes us unhappy, but there are reasons it is frightening to let it go because a lot of times it's serving as, as part of the boundary, as part of that protection that we have.
And I, I wish I'd have had more bitter protection at certain points. Frankly, my system could have used that. But just because I get angry does not mean I'm bitter or wrong, or have not forgiven. I'm forgiven. I'm that goal. And I'm still pissed because I'm looking at [00:41:00] somebody else getting
Katherine: I'm still pissed.
Connie: Yes, exactly. And do I feel that all the time? No, I don't. But, but every few years something will trickle back to me and it's like, Are you kidding me? You know? And I think that that anger is totally appropriate, and it does not stay, it does not chew my insides out. I'm just pissed about it because it's not okay.
So I think that, that, thinking about the story we get, we get a lot of judgment about if you've forgiven, this is what it's gonna have to look like. Mostly because we're uncomfortable, especially with women being angry. So so if you're angry, you're, you've got a problem. If you're a woman, especially sometimes a man, but men get away with a lot more anger than we do.
So it's like you, if you're, you're angry, there's a problem. And if you're telling your story, you're clearly out for revenge and you haven't forgiven. And I just think there's a lot of weird stuff out there [00:42:00] about judgment in, in that realm of saying, we're gonna decide whether you've forgiven or not.
Katherine: Someone who was on the podcast a couple weeks ago described bitterness and the way that bitterness is actually used in the Bible as a grief of spirit. And like if we took the word bitter out and we put in grief of spirit, and if someone says, you're bitter. And, and I translate in that my brain grief of spirit.
Connie: Yes, yes. Yeah, totally.
Katherine: Absolutely. Grieved of spirit and will likely be, and that's where the trauma thing comes in too. And, and if you're, if you have that trauma still sorted in your body, which I do, I still have the trauma of my upbringing still sort in my body and like that's gonna bring up those emotional flashbacks at un unexpected times for any particular reason that is [00:43:00] uncontrollable.
Like, it's not like I can't manage. When that's gonna pop up. And that is not bitterness. That's a very different experience. That's an, that's an emotional flashback.
Connie: I love that grief of spirit. And then again, sometimes we're using words that probably have some different definitions and, but you're right.
It's like, yeah. That we're defining better, like that. Heck yeah. Yes.
Katherine: Yeah. Grieved of spirit. And I hope that I always will be grieved of spirit for those things and, and always be angry. I hope I will always be angry about abuse, right. Abuse that was done to me and the abuse that was done to other people.
I hope that I don't see, I don't have a goal for myself or desire to ever get to a place where I'm not angry about it, because that's not healthy, but like that I am, I want to be angry about that. Yes. Yes, I want to, when one of my siblings calls me to tell me a [00:44:00] story of something that they just remembered and it was a horrible thing that happened, I want to feel anger at that.
I want to be grieved that that happened because it's worthy of grief. It's worthy of anger, especially, it's so worthy.
Connie: Yes. It's a, it's a very. Appropriate response. It's a healthy response. And that's where there, again, a whole nother topic, but how, how the, how religious communities view anger is and who gets to be angry and who doesn't.
You know, it is like, that's a whole nother topic, but there's, but that ties deeply into this topic of forgiveness, who, you know, how, which sections. Of the authority structure. Get to be angry at who, which genders get to be angry. I mean, all of this. Or you know, how long you're allowed to be angry.
Connie: How long, oh, talk about rules.
How long you're, and how long you're supposed to be grieved [00:45:00] in spirit. Oh my goodness. Yeah. Whatever has passed. Yes. Yes.
Katherine: Thank you. So well, I think if anything can be concluded from this conversation as it is nuanced, it is complex and it is not something that we can come at someone with and say, define if you have or if you haven't.
Like, yes, I think that the, and no one can come at us and tell us if we have or if we haven't, and decide for us what that looks like. If anything is concluded here to just sort of wrap up, I would be lucky. Kind of like to go through your evaluation, just so, so folks can kind of do this on their own.
Absolutely. You have three questions at the end of your chapter that you ask just to kind of, for us to just ask ourselves and I mean, we can even just do it in real time. And we kind of talked about this one a little bit, which is, what are some other words for forgiveness that I might prefer?
What about you, Connie? What are some words you prefer?
Connie: Right. Unfortunately, I threw out my favorites, or, I mean, [00:46:00] I chatted about them earlier, but I wanna, I guess I'd like to create space for whatever metaphor works for you. I mean, that's the issue. There's something, there's some level, I do think at core, I think we could say there's some level of disconnecting from.
A harmful connection with that person. I think that might be one of the best ways to put it in some metaphor or some language to say, how do I let go, how do I release myself From being hooked Into something that is, is putting poison in me. So yeah.
Katherine: Poison from that person because we're still interacting with them.
Connie: Absolutely. And even if you're not in a, sometimes they're dead, but they're still poisoned in [00:47:00] you because of that mental fight that you are in with them. And that's different from being mad. I'm not in a fight with my abusers anymore. Some of them actually died. But it's like, I am not in a fight with them, but I can get pissed off because it's not okay.
And so I guess there's, there's that emotional hook that, and there again, releasing the emotional hook does not mean all the damage. Again, be really careful. All the damage is not healed by that. But it is one piece of the pie where I can go. Okay. Yep. Be gone.
Katherine: That's your next book title release. The emotional hook.
Connie: Yes. There it is. Perfect. Thank you for that release.
Katherine: The emotional hook.
Connie: Yeah. And I think that's why I'd like to give people creativity and a lot of latitude and space to say, how am I gonna define this for me?
What is that gonna look like? And, and nobody else gets to, nobody else gets to have input [00:48:00] in that if you don't want their input. Have you watched,
Katherine: Do you watch Ted Lasso?
Connie: Have I watched Ted Lasso?
Katherine: I'm in season three. I haven't finished season three, but whatever episode I just watched Ted has a conversation with his ex-wife, or soon to be ex-wife, I guess. I don't know if they're divorced yet or not. And he says just basically like, I just wanted to let you know how I feel and that I'm not okay.
Yes. Okay. And then he just closes the computer and he walks away. And I thought it was beautiful because that is, for me, what forgiveness is, is that release of responsibility that might lead me to having a conversation with someone so that I can close the door and like, I'm not walking away from this.
And I would do that with someone who I would say the intent was good. Yeah. I might think that with someone who, who I actually feel like they're coming from a good place. I need you to know how this impacted [00:49:00] me. And then I walk away from that conversation with no expectation that they're gonna
Connie: Right.
Right. I'm saying this for me, not for
Katherine: you. Yeah. And, and, and releasing myself of the responsibility of changing their mind or convincing them. And, and also if it's not safely done, we're done walking away, putting up, raising that relationship. And, and as we're talking this conversation, and I'm talking about the people who have, who have kind of weaponized forgiveness against me, even with a good intent and it did, it did cause a little bit of boundary in the relationship and, and realizing they're not a safe person for me to tell my story to.
So I don't tell my story to them. Right? That's how they're gonna respond. I am not responsible for that. I can take my story elsewhere. So that's how I would define it. Release [00:50:00] of responsibility for myself, releasing myself of responsibility, not releasing responsibility. Releasing responsibility. Right.
Connie: Right.
Katherine: Second, the last question. So the next one is do I need to forgive? Do I want to forgive? I think that's a great question and I'm like, I'm gonna start using that with my clients just like, even if they say the words, a lot of, a lot of folks will say, I need to forgive.
Like, I, I need to, I need to like, I need to, I should. Yeah. Yeah. But then to just follow that up with like, do you want to, yeah. How have you seen that play out?
Connie: Just in, I know people can hardly believe this sometimes, but you know, at 18 years of clinical work, I have never initiated the conversation around forgiveness because I don't need to.
It's always them coming up and saying, [00:51:00] oh my gosh, I feel like I need to forgive, or I want, or I wanna forgive, or, and I'm like, great. Okay, let's chat about forgiveness. And I think. I really trust that because if a lack of forgiveness is now causing my client problems, it's gonna come up. And great.
I'll wait for it. I have no, I have no agenda to rush this and, and so, yes. Do I need to forgive? First of all, I'm going to say no, forgive. Well, one thing we haven't said explicitly yet is forgiveness is a thing that happens in time. It, it's a thing that often is a huge progression of time. It starts maybe in a little way and, and, and then it kind of stops or starts or this is, and that is beautiful.
That's fine. That is whatever [00:52:00] your experience with forgiveness, Yeah. Great. That's it. Let it be, like you said, some of yours just happened. Like, and some of mine was a dawning realization, but they just didn't have power over me anymore and that I just didn't care. Yeah. I just, I just didn't care and I'd let it go.
Now, again, not let it go. Like, like it didn't happen. No, no. There was a, there was a debt register there and there was a debt, you know, stuff. But yeah. And so then do I want to, sometimes people really want to and are saying it's not even a should for them, it's just I really, I wanna unhook.
And they're struggling too. And I think that's where, if you're struggling with that, I do think therapy can be helpful because there's a lot of mechanisms that keep us hooked that are important to non-judgmentally and with curiosity, explore and say, what, what if we twinkle [00:53:00] our nose and. You're you've forgiven.
And a lot of times it has to do with vulnerability or lack of protection. Somehow it's, there's still, and so then the question becomes, which I think is a very hopeful question, what can you use in place of a destructive bitterness or, or resentment that's hurting them? What can you use in place to make sure you are protected?
And see, I love how those happen simultaneously for you. It's like, oh, breaking contact is my protection. I don't, I can let this baby go now because I don't have to, because now I've set something else in place. Does it have to be up for everyone, a whole severing of the whole relationship? No, but it can be, it can be boundaries put in place to say, I will protect myself.
Katherine: Thank you for naming the need for safety before you can forgive. Yes. Not like you need to be in a safe place. If you're still in a marriage [00:54:00] and you are being abused in that marriage and you're still in the marriage in everyday contact with this person. Don't even think about forgiveness.
Right? Just get to that later.
Connie: Right? Deal with it because you can't, because the ledger is growing too fast. You can't sit there. Oh, I've forgiven. No. And another metaphor I use is in, I work with a lot of domestic violence. I can sit here and keep stitching up all the knife wounds, but you're just getting more all the time.
And I'm willing, as a therapist, I'm willing to kind of help keep stitching, but the knife wounds continue. And that's not to pressure them to leave, cuz I don't believe in that at all unless their life is in danger. But we need a realistic view. You're not gonna heal well if you're still constantly exposed and connected to someone who has power over you that is hurting you.
You can't fully heal. So you gotta get away from the knife eventually.
Katherine: Yep. If you're actively in this [00:55:00] situation, just table that table forgiveness. Listen to this episode later. Worry about this right now.
Connie: Totally. I think that's it. And so do I want to Yes. Great. And if you have blocks then, you know, get a little help with that.
And look at the issue of safety. Look at the issue of how can I, is, could that be, I think that is often not the only one, but a primary thing that says, I can't do that. I want to, but I just can't. What's that about? And usually people judge themselves. I'm just, I just need, I, I want to, but I just can't, what's wrong with me?
It's like, no, you actually have a part of you that is saying we need to be kept safe. So how do you work with that part? And says, good, you're right. We do need to be kept safe. Let's put some in place.
Katherine: Yes, yes. Oh, I love that. I love that. And that might, that might be the answer to the next question, which is if someone comes to that place, so I, I'm ready to forgive, I wanna forgive.
What are the next steps?
Connie: Yeah. Well, first of all, [00:56:00] let's remove any barriers. You need to feel safety, you need to feel ready. And at that point I've got, I got kind of a step by step that I think rarely anybody has ever done all these steps that I've worked with. But I think that they are, But they're helpful because it makes it concrete.
Some of us are very concrete thinkers and forgiveness is an abstract a lot of time, Lewis is why we have a hard time defining it. But part of this, again, go back and we're gonna define stuff in concrete ways. What were those offenses? I think writing them down you know, as therapists, we want people to externalize either through talking or putting it on paper, get it out of them and externalize it.
So to put all the offenses down, write them down. And if there's a truly safe person to bring into the process, I think that can be very meaningful. I also think this can be done alone [00:57:00] in a beautiful, very profound way as well. But if there is the possibility of doing so, do you want somebody safe in the mix with you? As you write these down, as you assign values, as you make a concrete, great, bring 'em in.
And then I. I love the whole idea of a symbolic gesture of some sort like a ritual. Yes, absolutely. And I've had people who want to burn the paper.
Katherine: Oh, I love it. That was, I came into my head, I'll be burning that paper, burn it, burn that paper.
Connie: I've had people in my office shred it. Shred the paper, get a good void stamp.
Put okay, cancel or whatever is on that. Something symbolic to say all these offenses that I was super concrete about. Or if you don't wanna get rid of that paper, which I think there's some great reasons not to seal it in an envelope. I know I've kept sealed envelope stuff in my client's files before.
It's like, you bet it's here. You know? [00:58:00] If you ever need it, you got it. We, you know. But to have it something symbolically letting it go, whatever works for you. I think that those can be some helpful concrete ways to Yeah,
Katherine: yeah. Oh, I love that. I love that. Those are some, yeah. Great. And I love, yeah, the idea of adding in a ritual.
And I think that that could be helpful for so many of us who have left church spaces that were so very ritualistic and now we don't have any rituals. So to recreate a ritual, and make something that's ours.
Connie: Yes. The church for all its fault and difficulty is a place in our culture that still does carry some, some potentially beautiful rituals.
Where a lot of other domains, other societies have rituals around all kinds of stuff because I think that's part of our humanity. Our culture is like, oh, we don't do the ritual thing. And I think, oh, sometimes our ritual is about honor. I want to honor this process I've just gone through [00:59:00] with this ceremony, with this sacred moment to be there again. I'm not talking about Christian / Christianese sacred, but just a sacred honoring moment of saying, this is significant. I'm gonna give it weight.
Katherine: I love that. I think that is a great place to end too. And I hope this is an episode that folks will be able to just listen to over and over and over and over again when those 70 times seven versus. Pop up in their mind reminding you of the ways that these teachings have been used against us and, and not actually been for our flourishing and our healing.
So thank you for talking about this. I'm so excited.
Connie: Oh, me too, Katherine. Thank you for having me. It's always a delight to chat with you and I'm, I'm do, I am hoping too that others can just, can find some space, permission freedom in this discussion to, to find their own way. So [01:00:00] yes, find your own way.
Katherine: Yeah. With that encouragement.
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This episode discusses the brutal murder of Elizabeth Mackintosh on the campus of Covenant Theological Seminary in 1990. It also discusses an entire denominationâs apparent erasure of women.
Karl Saint Lucy is a songwriter, composer, and vocalist living in The Bronx. Karl's father, Michael Johnson, is the prime suspect in the unsolved 1990 murder of Elizabeth Mackintosh on the campus of Covenant Theological Seminary.
Karl is the songwriter, a co-composer (with music producer Marius de Vries), and a co-producer of A24's first movie musical, F**king Identical Twins, directed by Larry Charles, which stars Megan Thee Stallion in her first feature film. Saint Lucy was a featured soloist on John Cameron Mitchell's Anthem: Homunculus musical podcast by Luminary Originals and was an alto finalist for the GRAMMY Award-winning men's choir, Chanticleer, in 2017.
Check out the 2023 podcast series TRUE BELIEVER that goes into more details about the case, Covenant Seminary, and the PCA.
The âCold Justiceâ Team Helps Investigate The âSavageâ Murder Of A Seminary Student
US murder suspect 'will not face charges' after Edinburgh nurse killed
RESPONSE TO LETTER TO CHURCHES
REGISTER FOR RETREATCON
Uncertain is a podcast of Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If youâre enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus.
You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/support
To get in touch with us please email [email protected]
Follow on Instagram @uncertainpodcast
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Bridget Eileen Rivera is a sociologist completing her Ph.D. at the City University of New York Graduate Center. Her first book, Heavy Burdens (Brazos Press, fall 2021), is a Foreward INDIES 2022 Finalist for religion. Providing an honest account of seven ways LGBTQ people experience discrimination in the church, Heavy Burdens helps Christians across the theological spectrum to grapple with hard realities and navigate a better approach to LGBTQ issues. You can follow Bridget's work on social media @travelingnun
In this episode we discuss:
How does religion impact the suicide rate of LGBTQ people?
Is the Bible really clear about LGBTQ issues?
How does the gender conversation impact the LGBTQ conversation?
What is the political motivation behind the myth of the âgay agendaâ?
REGISTER FOR RETREATCON
Uncertain is a podcast of Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If youâre enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus.
You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/support
To get in touch with us please email [email protected]
Follow on Instagram @uncertainpodcast
Links for Survivors Discuss podcast:
Website: https://survivorsdiscuss.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/SurvivorsDiscuss/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/survivorsdiscuss/
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3qTwCpqu8PBiXvGtJVS8SF?si=b2b62039df4a4d3d
Amazon/Alexa: https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/d0479463-01ca-4580-af9c-e06eea1eed33/survivors-discuss
Audible: https://www.audible.com/pd/Survivors-Discuss-Podcast/B0C9TL21ZL?action_code=ASSGB149080119000H&share_location=pdp
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Armed with data from an all-new survey of more than 7,000 women, the authors of The Great Sex Rescue, Sheila Wray Gregoire, Rebecca Gregoire Lindenbach, and Joanna Sawatsky, reveal how experiences in church as teens affect women's self-esteem and relationships today in their new book She Deserves Better: Raising Girls to Resist Toxic Teachings on Sex, Self, and Speaking Up.
They expose common evangelical teachings that can backfire: the purity emphasis that can cause shame rather than good choices, the dating rules that can prime girls for abuse, and the one overarching belief that can keep them from setting healthy boundaries.
Sheila Wray Gregoire is the face behind ToLoveHonorandVacuum.com, the largest single-blogger marriage blog. She's also an award-winning author of nine books, including The Good Girl's Guide to Great Sex, and a sought-after speaker. With her humorous, no-nonsense approach, Sheila is passionate about changing the evangelical conversation about sex and marriage to line up with kingdom principles. She lives in Ontario, Canada, with her husband.
REGISTER FOR RETREATCON
Uncertain is a podcast of Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If youâre enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus.
You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/support
To get in touch with us please email [email protected]
Follow on Instagram @uncertainpodcast
Links for Survivors Discuss podcast:
Website: https://survivorsdiscuss.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/SurvivorsDiscuss/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/survivorsdiscuss/
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3qTwCpqu8PBiXvGtJVS8SF?si=b2b62039df4a4d3d
Amazon/Alexa: https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/d0479463-01ca-4580-af9c-e06eea1eed33/survivors-discuss
Audible: https://www.audible.com/pd/Survivors-Discuss-Podcast/B0C9TL21ZL?action_code=ASSGB149080119000H&share_location=pdp
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