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Today I had the pleasure of speaking with Dr. Elizabeth Sawin, Director of the Multisolving Institute, which she founded in 2021 to develop tools and share research on "multisolving." This innovative approach addresses equity, climate change, health, well-being, and economic vitality as interconnected issues, helping to create solutions that tackle multiple problems simultaneously. Elizabeth developed this concept after studying successful "bright spots" around the world—places where people brought about systems change by breaking down silos and building connections.
Elizabeth’s background is rooted in system dynamics and computer simulation, a field in which she was mentored by the renowned Donella Meadows at the Sustainability Institute. She has a forthcoming book titled Multisolving: Creating Systems Change in a Fractured World. It’s an inspiring and practical guide that I highly recommend to anyone interested in systems change work.
In our conversation, we explore Elizabeth’s groundbreaking work in multisolving, where she shares real-world examples of how this approach works in practice—such as bringing together asthma advocates and environmentalists to craft holistic solutions for communities. These collaborative efforts not only address environmental concerns but also improve public health and community resilience, highlighting the power of integrated action.
We also dive into the essential worldview shift that Elizabeth believes is necessary for meaningful change. The dominant worldview, particularly in the Western world, treats the world as a "collection of objects," where safety comes from domination, power is gained through control, and causality is viewed as linear. In contrast, the relational worldview, often associated with indigenous traditions, sees the world as a web of interconnected relationships. In this worldview, safety comes from partnership, power is built through consent, and boundaries are fluid and permeable. Elizabeth emphasizes that to transform the physical world, we must first transform our mental models, learning to recognize and act within this web of relationships.
One of the most thought-provoking aspects of our discussion is the idea of fractals—how patterns that repeat in nature also appear in societal structures. Elizabeth explains how the "collection of objects" worldview manifests fractally in systems like supremacy, patriarchy, colonialism, and extractive economics. Conversely, the relational worldview gives rise to fractals of rights for nature, gender and racial equity, and sustainable economies. These patterns reinforce each other, so our work involves breaking harmful patterns and forging new relationships through which healthier, more sustainable fractals can emerge.
Entangled World is 100% independent and will never take advertiser money. If you value it, and have the means, please consider subscribing on Patreon.
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Watch now on YouTube.
Entangled World explores the interrelated, existential social, economic, ecological, and technological risks we face, their underlying drivers, and how a more beautiful world might emerge.
Entangled World is a labor of love, I am deeply grateful for the generosity of my listeners and fans. Please consider supporting the project at https://www.patreon.com/entangledworld
Today on the podcast, I talked with Vanessa de Oliveira Andreotti. Vanessa is the author of Hospicing Modernity: Facing humanity's wrongs and the implications for social activism, which is a beautiful and critical read for our times in which we must all navigate the global crises we face.
In this episode, we discuss the implications of modernity and what is required of us today, to plant the seeds for a more just, beautiful future for all. Vanessa shares insights from her work in Brazil and with Indigenous communities, highlighting the artificial divide between humans and nature and modernity's impact on our neurobiology.
We discuss cultivating a sense of relational maturity, emotional sobriety, and intellectual discernment and why a move from narrow boundary intelligence, or “either/or,” thinking to wide boundary intelligence, which considers “both/and,” is essential to perceive and then appropriately and morally navigate our actions.
We also discuss how the pattern of modernity is to project an image of the future with fixed form and fixed meanings, so that we can engineer a perfect world. But this is actually a trap that keeps us bound in problematic ways of thinking that have resulted in the existential crises we face. So rather than trying to imagine objective forms, such as what does the future we want look like, we can focus on the vibrational field, how do we want it to feel and how do we work backwards from that? What does it require of us today? What control and certainly must we give up?
This was a thought-provoking conversation about what it means to live more consciously in our paradoxical world and the role that each of us can play as we navigate from modernity to relationality.
00:00 Introduction to Entangled World
01:03 Meet the Host: Najia Shaukat Lupson
02:07 Guest Introduction: Vanessa's Story
02:34 Vanessa's Background and Family History
04:11 Challenges and Paradoxes in Vanessa's Upbringing
06:25 Vanessa's Journey in Education and Indigenous Work
10:55 Exploring the Root of Global Crises
13:12 The House of Modernity: A Metaphor
19:43 Navigating the Meta Crisis
23:54 The Role of Education in Addressing Crises
30:36 Imagination and Relationality
34:09 The Concept of Entanglement
35:33 The Role of Imagination in Creating the New
36:07 Wisdom and Intelligence: A Southern Perspective
37:25 Navigating Modernity: From Narrow to Wide Boundary Intelligence
38:27 The Complexity of Wisdom
41:53 Educational Challenges and Breadcrumbs of Wisdom
48:45 The Seven A's and E's of Modernity
57:12 Neurobiology and Modernity's Impact
01:03:36 Final Thoughts and Future Conversations
Vanessa’s Links:
Portfolio of Vanessa’s work
Hospicing Modernity: Facing humanity's wrongs and the implications for social activism by Vanessa Machado de Oliveira:
Gesturing Towards Decolonial Futures Arts/Research Collective
Art-Life Rituals for Radical Tenderness
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Today on the podcast, I had the distinct honor and pleasure of speaking with Fritjof Capra. Fritjof is the lead teacher of the Capra Course and Systems View LAB. Fritjof is a scientist, educator, and activist who has written and lectured extensively about the philosophical and social implications of modern science. He was a founding director (1995-2020) of the Berkeley-based Center for Ecoliteracy and serves on the faculty of the Amana-Key executive education program in São Paulo, Brazil. He is a Fellow of Schumacher College and serves on the Council of Earth Charter International.
He is also the author of several international bestsellers. including The Tao of Physics (1975), The Turning Point (1982), and The Web of Life (1996). He is coauthor of the multidisciplinary textbook The Systems View of Life (2014).
Fritjof is the rare person who has engaged in not only a tremendous amount of research, theory and writing, but also actuation in the world through his activism and bringing ecology education into public schools.
In this episode, Fritjof talks about 4 key principles that summarize the culmination of his life’s work and what he calls the “systems view of life”:
Life organizes itself in networks of processes (chemical, biological, communications, etc.).
Life is inherently regenerative down to the molecular level.
Life is inherently creative.
Life is inherently intelligent.We discuss how the mechanistic worldview which originated from Renee Descartes who viewed the mind (which he called the “thinking” thing) as separate from matter (which he called the “extended” thing) and which has been the dominant worldview is now finally being upended by a network-based worldview. The network worldview acknowledges that all of life is interconnected, co-evolving and complex and therefore cannot be controlled.
We explore how the mechanistic worldview is still espoused by many technologists leading AI development who view intelligence as solely residing in the brain, discounting the embodied, felt ways of knowing that reside in the body.
Ultimately, we discuss the importance of putting life at the center of everything we do, of everything that is worth doing in this time of metacrisis.
Fritjof’s Links:
https://www.fritjofcapra.net/
https://www.capracourse.net/ (Fall 2024 course starting Sept. 18, 2024)
Other Resources Mentioned:
Robert Reich
Owning Our Future by Marjorie Kelly
Entangled Life by Merlin Sheldrake
When Corporations Rule the World by David Korten
Ecological Civilization: From Emergency to Emergence by David Korten
The Social Dilemma by the Center for Humane Technology
The AI Dilemma by the Center Humane Technology
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Watch it now on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKcb4D7qEfU
My guest today is Schuyler Brown. Schuyler is a strategist, futurist, facilitator, and coach. She founded The Art of Emergence and her gifts include executive coaching, corporate shamanism, navigating spiritual awakening and crises, and hosting online and in-person retreats centered around embodiment, emotional intelligence, and leading from the heart. She has a rich history as a futurist and is sought out for her intuitive and empathic gifts and her ability to guide people into opening into their own full potential.
In this episode, Schuyler and I talk about the relational aspect of living in a time of metacrisis, the balance of masculine and feminine energies, the impacts of generational trauma, and the role non-human consciousness can play in our journeys.
We talk about how the important emotional content of our lives is often ignored in our existing systems, partly because it’s inefficient and messy. We explore how even amongst people working to address the metacrisis, there’s an extreme focus on productivity, efficiency, speed, and results, and with good reason, you only have to open your eyes to see the many entangled, existential crises we face. But we also need to feel the pain, it cannot just be an intellectual exercise. Emotions aren’t a distraction, they’re useful bits of information meant to guide our actions. To actually feel them helps us to know what to do about our current predicament.
We talk about how humanity’s survival is not guaranteed and how that means we are in a time we’re each one of us that’s alive today, young or old has a deep responsibility to current and future generations of all human and non-human life on this planet to do whatever they are able to shift our trajectory. How do we walk through this world as ensouled beings and simultaneously create “heaven on Earth”?
We end our conversation discussing how it’s only non-human sentience that can see humanity’s blind spots. In the upcoming weeks, how can YOU listen to the non-human world? What messages are meant to be coming through to you and uniquely only you? What are you meant to do at this time? What are you meant to sense into, not intellectually figure out?
00:00 Introduction to Entangled World
01:37 Meet Schuyler: A Journey of Self-Discovery
09:51 Exploring the Metacrisis
24:07 Parenting in the Age of the Metacrisis
36:34 The Role of Trauma in the Metacrisis
45:05 Challenges of Addressing the Metacrisis in Organizations
49:58 Standing Outside the System
51:15 The Trap of Power and Status
52:39 Partnership Societies and Feminine Principles
54:42 Creating Balanced Organizations
56:31 The Sacred in Group Dynamics
59:33 The Dance of Masculine and Feminine
01:08:34 The Concept of Time and Urgency
01:24:21 Communion with Nature
01:30:53 Closing Reflections and Future Guests
Schuyler’s Links & Resources:
The Art of Emergence
Schuyler’s Substack
Tenacious Magic, Schuyler Brown (being readied for publication)
Other Resources Mentioned:
The Emerald podcast, Joshua Schrei, For the Intuitives episodes
Bonnitta Roy
Entangled World explores our greatest, interrelated social, economic, ecological, and technological global challenges, their underlying drivers, and how a more beautiful world might emerge.
Entangled World is a labor of love, I couldn’t keep this podcast going without the generosity of my listeners and fans. Please consider making a donation at patreon.com/entangledworld.
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit najialupson.substack.com -
Watch the video episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/IsZaVuRktXY
My guest today is Olivia Lazard. Olivia is a research fellow at Carnegie Europe where her research involves investigating how to support a move towards regenerative foreign and security policy within the European Union. She also leads projects at the University of Exeter on the ecological costs of the energy transition. Essentially, Olivia works on the geopolitics of climate-disrupted futures and ecological breakdown. With a background in conflict resolution, and deep field experience in some of the world's most fragile contexts, she now focuses on preventing and mitigating the risks associated with a global competition over specific renewable and non-renewable resources. Her work tackles the decarbonisation-regeneration nexus, the core pillar for the future of global security and peace.
In this conversation, Olivia and I discuss the major “blind spots” of the energy transition and how competitive resource extraction is likely to lead to conflict, violence, ecological destabilization, and the dangerous potential of simultaneously compromising multiple major ecosystems for the sake of resource extraction. She describes how COVID and the Ukraine War revealed some important vulnerabilities in our interconnected systems and how resources can be powerfully weaponized by those who control them. She puts the Ukraine-Russia conflict in context as part of a larger story that has major implications for the future; a possible future in which Russia may be able to use its control over energy, critical minerals, agriculture, and other natural resources to threaten the stability of other increasingly dependent, destabilized nations.
We also talk about how China has perfected the verticalization of supply chains for several critical minerals needed for the advanced tech revolution, particularly the development of AI. China has become not only an industrial heavyweight leading in manufacturing but also a technological heavyweight, which has massive geopolitical implications for the global balance of power
We explore the rationality behind different realms of human conquest throughout history, from colonialism to the nuclear age, highlighting how these revolutions came about in response to needs and threats in key historical moments. We discuss historical cycles of attempts to control, extract, expand, and conquer, and the resulting long-term consequences. In other words, how our current problem-solving approaches works to solve narrow goals while externalizing harm in other places.
Olivia shares about her experience staying with an Indigenous community in the Amazon during which she had a profound spiritual experience in which she felt more connected to the natural world than she had ever felt before and it completely shifted how she thought about her place in the world. We end the conversation talking about how in reality, we are not separate from nature and to understand that is to come to view ourselves and the world in all its holistic beauty.
Olivia Lazard’s Links & Resources:
https://carnegieendowment.org/people/olivia-lazard?lang=en
The Blind Spots of the Green Energy Transition | Olivia Lazard | TED
https://www.iwm.at/europes-futures/fellow/olivia-lazard
https://x.com/OliviaLazard?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
https://muckrack.com/olivia-lazard/articles
Other Resources Mentioned:
Dirt: The Erosion of Civilizations by David R. Montgomery
The Human Planet: How We Created The Anthropocene by Simon L. Lewis and Mark A. Maslin
Stockholm Impact Week (Olivia’s talk and others)
Benchmark Minerals
James Dyke (tipping points research and more)
International Panel on Climate Change (IPCC)
The Intergovernmental Science-Policy Platform on Biodiversity and Ecosystem Services
Emily Robinson, PhD Researcher in Artificial Intelligence and Data Science, University of Exeter
The European Green Deal
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My guest today is Dr. Nate Hagens. Nate is the Executive Director of The Institute for the Study of Energy & Our Future (ISEOF), an organization focused on educating and preparing society for the coming cultural transition.
Nate is also a fellow podcaster as the host of The Great Simplification, in which he has conversations with experts in energy, ecology, human behavior, geopolitics, technology, and the economy to provide a systemic view of the world around us, inform more humans about the path ahead, and inspire people to play a role in our collective future. As a backdrop for The Great Simplification podcast, Nate also produced a short animated film by the same title that you can find on YouTube. And he has also co-authored two books Reality Blind - Integrating the Systems Science Underpinning Our Collective Futures - Vol 1 and The Bottlenecks of the 21st Century.
In this episode, we talk about our current collective predicament, especially, a way of life built on unsustainable energy consumption, also known as the energy dissipating “superorganism” of humanity. One core aspect of our current predicament is the climate crisis and many people believe that all we have to do is get off fossil fuels and transition to renewable energy but this is an ecology-blind view that ignores the fact that the minerals that power our EVs and solar panels are finite and their extraction has devastatingly complex environmental and human costs.
Nate emphasizes how our cultural values, goals, and aspirations must evolve if we want our technological advancements to affect positive change rather than accelerate our current unsustainable extractive way of life. Nate paints a picture of the bifurcations between technology and ecology, masculine and feminine, right brain and left brain, and how these forces have fallen out of balance throughout human history.
We also talk about Nate’s recent visit to India, where he experienced firsthand some of the differences between Eastern and Western cultures, and close our conversation by honoring ancient traditions and opening an inquiry into how we might both remember the wisdom that was hard earned over thousands of years by our ancestors and apply it to our modern-day metacrisis predicament.
Watch the full video episode on YouTube.
Nate Hagen's Links & Resources:
The Institute for the Study of Energy & Our Future
The Great Simplification (Nate’s podcast)
The Great Simplification (short film)n
Reality Blind - Integrating the Systems Science Underpinning Our Collective Futures - Vol 1 - Nate Hagens and DJ White
The Bottlenecks of the 21st Century - DJ White and Nate Hagens
Economics for the Future: Beyond the Superorganism
University of Minnesota Reality 101 course videos
Reality 101 short course overview
Other Resources Mentioned:
The Ministry For The Future by Kim Stanley Robinson
Josh Farley, ecological economist and Nate’s PhD advisor
Sir Ian McGilchrist, neuroscience researcher, philosopher and literary scholar
Geoffrey West, theoretical physicist at Santa Fe Institute
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My guest today is Indy Rishi Singh. Indy is a cultural creative with Cosmic Labyrinth, a collective of edutainers producing biocultural ecorestorations and collective care events in public and at conferences and festivals. Indy is also a co-developer in a technology cooperative designing a bioregional citizen based communication platform that serves as both a tool for effective mutual aid and improving civic literacy. He recently joined the California Doughnut Economic Coalition, focusing on policy change and grassroots cooperation to create an economy that cares for both people and nature. And he’s also a board member with Cultivating Self, a nonprofit transforming and reimagining healthcare by focusing on the education and empowerment of caregivers, and regularly shares Neuroplasticity and resilience techniques with corporations and organizations around the world.
This was a wide-ranging conversation and we explored many topics of a personal nature as well as what responses to our entangled global crises might look like. Indy talked about his experience in medical school where he witnessed many contradictions and found that an integration of different perspectives was lacking, which then led him on a journey to explore ancient practices of healing like Ayurveda, a 5000 year old practice originating in India through which knowledge was embedded within stories as a way of transferring information in case some of it got destroyed.
Indy also talks about how “systems doing” is very different from “system thinking”. He says when you’re engaged in “systems doing”, you have to go to those places, you have to ask questions, you have to humble yourself and be willing to learn and let what you learn change you. You have to allow emergence to happen rather than having a strict agenda for what YOU want to have happen.
We also talk about the importance of sacrifice, that IF we truly want things to change, we have to be willing to sacrifice something. He says oppression and tyranny take advantage of our fear of sacrifice. We also talk about ancient practices for sensemaking and how in Samkhya, in the Sanskrit tradition of philosophical debate, you actually take on your opponent's perspective and then you take on other perspectives beyond just those two polar perspectives. You attempt to look at things from multiple angles and even then you can just grasp a small portion of reality.
I’ve been thinking about questions like, “Where does our knowledge come from?”, “How has it evolved?”, “What can we learn from ancient civilizations that lived sustainably in relative harmony and balance with all of life?”, “How might we incorporate ancient wisdom into new civilizational design?”
Indy and I used some terms in the conversation that I understand because of my South Asian heritage, which may be unfamiliar to you, so I've included them below.
Terms Mentioned:
Desi: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desi
Bhangra: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhangra
Ayurveda: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayurveda
Rig Veda: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigveda
Dosha: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dosha
Pranayama: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pranayama
Karma: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma
Dharma: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharma
Sikh: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhs
Kali Yuga: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali_Yuga
Satya Yuga: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satya_Yuga
Indy’s Links & Resources:
www.CosmicLabyrinth.world interfaith eco-restorations & care-based collective
www.caldec.org Communications & Outreach for California Doughnut Economic Coalition
www.nola.chat/neuroplasticity organizational & community wellbeing coaching
www.cultivatingself.org nonprofit transforming healthcare
Political Hope podcast: Spotify, Apple
Other Resources Mentioned:
Hermes Trismegistus - The 7 Hermetic Principles
We Deepen founded by Christina Weber
The Banality of Evil by Hannah Arendt
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Watch the video episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/EjhDCW12IAQ
My guest today is Phoebe Tickell. Phoebe calls herself an Imagination Activist to describe a new kind of activist she sees emerging worldwide. Her interest in different ways of perceiving the world informed (and was informed by) her studies in neuroscience, cognitive science, molecular structures, and plant science. It was this interest in perception that eventually led her to found Moral Imaginations in 2020. In her work, she seeks to reimagine our relationship with ourselves, each other, the planet, and the future. Moral Imaginations works with municipalities across the UK and Europe to cultivate and train imagination activists and has trained a thousand people in their methodology.
In this episode, we explore the word, “imagination”, what it means, and why it matters globally in THIS moment that we now find ourselves, in this time between worlds. We explore how shifts in perception change how we make sense of the world and how we can actively expand our perception, which is critical if we want to play a role in creating radical systems change in light of the metacrisis. Phoebe emphasizes the seriousness of imagination as a tool for change and she seeks to give people practices to leverage their imaginations to create freedom from within and to redefine the good life for themselves.
Phoebe’s Links & Resources:
www.phoebetickell.com
https://www.moralimaginations.com
Multispecies governance practices: https://phoebetickell.medium.com/towards-complex-governance-systems-cfd79c4ecf1
Phoebe’s imagination activism in Camden: https://issuu.com/moralimaginations/docs/camden_report_200623_digital_
Tool for Regenerative Renaissance course: https://niafaraway.com/tools-for-the-regenerative-renaissance/
Other Resources Mentioned:
Joanna Macy: https://www.joannamacy.net
The Consilience Project: https://consilienceproject.org
The Doors of Perception by Aldous Huxley
New School of the Anthropocene: https://www.nsota.org
Imagination: A Way To Remake The World (Phoebe’s talk with Ian McGilchrist): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7c9vyj_0zSs
Joanna Macy on shifting from an Industrial Growth Society to a life-sustaining civilization: https://www.ecoliteracy.org/article/great-turning
Lynn Margulis’ work on endosymbiosis: https://evolution.berkeley.edu/the-history-of-evolutionary-thought/1900-to-present/endosymbiosis-lynn-margulis/
Warm Data: https://warmdatalab.net/warm-data
UNDP Labs: https://www.undp.org/acceleratorlabs
Club of Rome: https://www.clubofrome.org/
Pat McCabe: https://www.patmccabe.net/
Bronte Velez: https://weavingearth.org/staff/bronte-velez/
Lead To Life: https://www.leadtolife.org/
Hospicing Modernity by Vanessa de Oliveira Andreotti: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/675703/hospicing-modernity-by-vanessa-machado-de-oliveira/
Peter Wall Institute (Vanessa Andreotti’s page): https://pwias.ubc.ca/community/vanessa-andreotti/
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My guest today is Four Arrows also known as Wahinkpe Topa or Dr. Don Trent Jacobs. Four Arrows is internationally respected for his expertise in Indigeneity and applications for living life in balance. He is a prolific author of many books and writings about the vital necessity of restoring our pre-colonial worldview. I first came across his work when I read the most recent book he co-wrote with Dr. Darcia Narvaez, Restoring the Kinship Worldview: 28 Precepts for Rebalancing Life on Mother Earth. It is absolutely worth the read, it is a thought-provoking exploration into how we’re living and what we can learn from Indigenous and ancient cultures that have lived in harmony with all of life for centuries before colonization and industrialization became the norm. The book was selected as one of “the most thought-provoking, inspiring, and practical science books of 2022” by U.C. Berkeley’s Science Center for the Greater Good.
In September of 2023, Four Arrows presented before the 9th annual Sustainability Summit at the 76th General Assembly of the United Nations in New York. He is truly a unique human being, he’s a former world-class equestrian, a horse whisperer, a world champion old-time piano player, holds two Ph.D.s and lives next to and surfs on the Costalegre waves of Jalisco Mexico.In this episode, Four Arrows takes me on a journey exploring the Indigenous worldview, non-duality, and origin stories and myths. We talk about anthropocentrism, this idea that humans sit atop the pyramid of life and that everything else on Earth is inferior to and here for humans to use and then discard as they see fit. This human-centric worldview lies at the root of our entangled crises and we explore some untraditional ways that worldviews and ultimately culture, might shift.
Watch on YouTube: https://youtu.be/qi4OPdVQ4X8
Four Arrow’s Links & Resources:
https://www.fourarrowsbooks.com
The Indigenization Controversy: For Whom and By Whom?
The Red Road: Linking Diversity and Inclusion Initiatives to Indigenous Worldviews
Unlearning the Language of Conquest
Primal Awareness
Differing Worldviews in Higher Education - Don (Four Arrows) Trent Jacobs & Dr. Walter Block
Hypnotic Communication in Emergency Medical Settings - Don (Four Arrows) Trent Jacobs & Bram Duffee
Critical Neurophilosophy & Indigenous Wisdom - Don (Four Arrows) Trent Jacobs, Greg Cajete & Jongmin Lee
Other Resources Mentioned:
Yanatin and Masintin In the Andean World - Hillary S. Webb
Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution - Peter Kropotkin
https://provensustainable.org/
A Time Before Deception - Thomas Cooper
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My guest today is Darcia Narvaez. Darcia is Professor Emerita of Psychology at the University of Notre Dame. Born in Minnesota, U.S., she grew up living around the world as a bilingual/bicultural Puerto Rican-German American but calls Earth her home. Her earlier careers include professional musician, business owner, music teacher, Spanish teacher, and seminarian, among other endeavors. Darcia uses an interdisciplinary approach to studying evolved morality, child development, and human flourishing.
Her most recent books include Restoring the Kinship Worldview, and The Evolved Nest: Nature’s Way of Raising Children and Creating Connected Communities both of which I’ve read and highly recommend.
Darcia explores how compassionate morality in humans unfolds and what we can do to nurture it. In our conversation, we talk about how early life experiences are SO critical because they shape and mold our personality, our desires and values, and our capacities. Darcia says when you undermine early experience, you’re setting up the brain to be a dominator brain because you don't develop all the social skills that naturally emerge from an immersed and nested experience early in life.
Darcia and I talk about how we’re living in ways that are very disconnected from the Earth and that the disconnection starts at birth.
We actually evolved for cooperative child raising with kin AND non kin (meaning animals, plants and other living matter) all actively participating in raising our children, not just one or two parents as is the case in many industrialized nations.
And if you think about it, there’s no society unless you’re taking care of mothers and children. Imagine if we created a society around caring for mothers and children? What might that world look like? How might we act today to support the emergence of that world?
Each one of us has a gift to give the world and in this episode, Darcia and I invite you to consider what your unique gift might be and how you might share it with the world.
I think this episode will resonate particularly if you’re a parent who feels like you’re struggling day to day, just trying to survive. Human history tells us we’ve actually evolved to live a very different way than the way many of us who are caught in the web of modernity are living.
I invite you to listen to this episode with an open mind and an open heart.
Watch the video episode on YouTube
Darcia Narvaez’s Links & Resources:
EvolvedNest.org & KindredWorld.org
Restoring the Kinship Worldview, Darcia Narvaez & Four Arrows
The Evolved Nest: Nature’s Way of Raising Children and Creating Connected Communities, Darcia Narvaez & G.A. Bradshaw
Entangled World is a labor of love, I am deeply grateful for the generosity of my listeners and fans. Please consider making a donation at patreon.com/entangledworld.
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My guest today is Dr. Brad Kershner. Brad is a school leader, independent scholar, and meta-theorist, currently serving as the Head of School at Kimberton Waldorf School. His research, teaching, and writing cover a wide range of entangled topics, including education, leadership, parenting, cultural diversity, technology, integral theory, meditation, complexity, and developmental psychology. His first book is Understanding Educational Complexity: Integrating Practices and Perspectives for 21st Century Leadership. Brad is also a longtime student of multiple Buddhist lineages, a practitioner of Zen meditation, and describes himself as a lifelong student of developmental psychology and early childhood education.
What’s so unique about Brad is that he’s a Waldorf educator who is also metacrisis-informed. As listeners of this podcast know, many of our conversations explore the metacrisis, or the entangled web of global crises that we’re facing and that have common underlying generative dynamics that we must navigate to support the continued emergence of life. Brad and I talk about why it’s so critical to not only work to deeply understand the metacrisis in all the ways we come to know and understand anything but to also have a contemplative practice alongside that often very cognitive exploration.
When referencing the metacrisis, Brad says, “...it's an educational problem. It's a consciousness problem. It's a cultural problem”...and Brad’s focus is on helping people to understand the psychological, emotional, and cultural roots of the technological and scientific challenges that we face.
We talk about the importance of slowing down, beyond the personal benefits, but highlighting how it's necessary to be able to engage with these wicked crises, in ways that veer towards the direction of more life and love and away from the direction of destruction and fear.
We talk about the Waldorf approach to education and human development, its roots, and why so many of the teachings of its founder, Rudolph Steiner, remain relevant for our modern world.
One thing to clarify is that when Brad says he is a “techno-optimist” he means he sees the value and potential in technology to improve our lives, not that he’s aligned with the “techno-optimist” movement whose adherents claim that market capitalism and technology will solve the world’s problems. This version of techno-optimism simply justifies elite power and promotes indifference to human suffering rather than the alleviation of that suffering.
If you’re a parent of any age child, I think this conversation will be well worth your time in your already very crunched schedule.
Watch the video episode on the entangledworldpod YouTube channel.
Brad Kershner’s Links & Resources:
Understanding Educational Complexity: Integrating Practices and Perspectives for 21st Century Leadership
Waldorf Education, Stolen Focus and the Crisis of Attention
Other Resources Mentioned:
Stolen Focus, Johann Hari
Rudolf Steiner
Waldorf Education
The Social Dilemma film
John Vervaeke
Entangled World is a labor of love, I am deeply grateful for the generosity of my listeners and fans. Please consider supporting the project at patreon.com/entangledworld.
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My guest today is Jonathan Rowson. Jonathan is the co-founder and Chief Executive of Perspectiva. A London-based charity that describes itself as "A collective of expert generalists working on an urgent one-hundred-year project to understand the relationship between systems, souls, and society in theory and practice".
He was Director of the Social Brain Centre at the Royal Society of Arts from 2009-2016, where he authored a range of influential research reports on behavior change, climate change, and spirituality, and curated and chaired public events. In 2018 he was awarded an Open Society Fellowship to apply his philosophical and strategic approach to challenges faced by the human rights movement.
Jonathan holds a first-class degree in Politics, Philosophy, and Economics from Oxford University and did his post-graduate work in theoretical psychology at Harvard and Bristol Universities, including a Ph.D. on what it means to become wiser.
He is also a chess Grandmaster and was the British Chess Champion for three consecutive years from 2004-2006 and worked as part of former World Champion Viswanathan Anand's analytical team in 2008. He is the author of five books, including most recently The Moves that Matter – A Grandmaster on the Game of Life which was published by Bloomsbury in 2019.
Jonathan’s Links & Resources:
Perspectiva
Substack
Twitter
Prefixing the World by Jonathan Rowson
Tasting the Pickle: Ten flavours of meta-crisis and the appetite for a new civilisation by Jonathan Rowson
Living in the Metacrisis with Jonathan Rowson short film by Katie Teague
The Seven Deadly Sins of Chess by Jonathan Rowson
The Moves that Matter – A Grandmaster on the Game of Life by Jonathan Rowson
Other Books, Articles, Videos Mentioned:
Education is the Metacrisis by Zak Stein
The Psychological Drivers of the Metacrisis: John Vervaeke, Iain McGilchrist, Daniel Schmachtenberger
The Politics of Virtue: Post-Liberalism and the Human Future by Milbank and Pabst
Rowan Williams Review of The Politics of Virtue
Hyperobjects: Philosophy and Ecology after the End of the World by Timothy Morton
Eye of the Heart: A Spiritual Journey into the Imaginal Realm by Cynthia Bourgeault
Economics for the future – Beyond the superorganism by Nate Hagens
The Great Simplification podcast hosted by Nate Hagens
The Politics of Waking Up by Indra Adnan
Zoom Conversations vs In-Person: Brain Activity Tells a Different Tale
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit najialupson.substack.com -
My guest today is Nora Bateson. Nora is an award-winning filmmaker, research designer, writer, educator, international lecturer, as well as President of the International Bateson Institute based in Sweden. She’s also the creator of the Warm Data theory and practices.
Nora’s work brings the fields of biology, cognition, art, anthropology, psychology, and information technology together into a study of the patterns in ecology of living systems. Her work asks the question “How can we improve our perception of the complexity we live within, so we may improve our interaction with the world?”
Nora has written two absolutely beautiful, thought provoking books, Small Arcs of Larger Circles and her latest book, Combining, where Nora challenges conventional fixes for our problems, highlighting the need to tackle issues at multiple levels, understand interdependence, and embrace ambiguity.
Nora and I talk about double binds, which in some cases are similar to multipolar traps or predicaments that feel impossible to get out of, what we might call “lose, lose” situations. Nora says in these situations, the question becomes, “How do we move with our predicament in a way that allows movement?”
And so we discuss how we cannot solve our current global challenges or the metacrisis with direct correctives. Nora says you don’t meet something head on, you meet it around, you meet it within, you meet it totally. In ecological systems nothing is happening one thing at a time. There’s not A solution to A problem.
We also discuss that while we can point to aspects of the metacrisis with language and statistics and measurements, that the real issues are insidious and underground and in our baseline presumptions of our understanding of what life is.
I absolutely LOVED this conversation and I hope you do too.
Nora Bateson’s Links & Resources:
International Bateson Institute
https://batesoninstitute.org/
Warm Data Host Training (Next in-person training Feb 19th-26th 2024 in Singapore)
Books:
Small Arcs of Larger Circles by Nora Bateson
Combining by Nora Bateson
I hope you enjoy the episode, if you do please subscribe or follow on your favorite podcast app or the entangledworldpod YouTube channel.
Entangled World explores the interrelated, existential social, economic, ecological, and technological risks we face, their underlying drivers, and how a more beautiful world might emerge.
Entangled World is a labor of love, I am deeply grateful for the generosity of my listeners and fans. Please consider making a donation on Patreon.
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit najialupson.substack.com -
My guest today is Zineb Mouhyi. Zineb is the co-founder of both YouthxYouth & the Weaving Lab. YouthxYouth is a movement to radically reimagine the future of education with the goal of accelerating the process of young people influencing, designing, and transforming their education. The Weaving Lab is a global community of practice with the mission of advancing the field of weaving, understood as the practice of interconnecting ideas, people, projects, organizations, places, and ecologies to support systems change. Zineb is also a PhD candidate in Anthropology and Social Change where she explores the questions “How might we facilitate a planetary transition to a thriving planet? & How could education lead to a planetary transition?”
Zineb and I talk about why education is one of the root causes of the many interrelated global crises we’re facing, also known as the metacrisis, as it is the core human-making function of society. Zineb believes that despite decades of adults working to reform public education, the system, on average, is producing dismal results and it's time for a youth-led education revolution! Her work with young people has confirmed her hunch that THEY need to be the ones leading the change.
We also talk about the benefits and risks of artificial intelligence (AI) in education and agree that it is of the utmost importance that those in positions of educational leadership work to deepen their understanding of AI and how it is and will impact children moving forward.
I hope you enjoy the episode, if you do please subscribe or follow on your favorite podcast app or the entangledworldpod YouTube channel.
Entangled World explores the interrelated, existential social, economic, ecological, and technological risks we face, their underlying drivers, and how a more beautiful world might emerge.
Entangled World is a labor of love, I am deeply grateful for the generosity of my listeners and fans. Please consider making a donation at patreon.com/entangledworld.
Zineb’s Links & Resources:
YouthxYouth
The Weaving Lab
Books Mentioned:
Education in a Time Between Worlds, Zak Stein
Other Resources:
Education is the Metacrisis, Zak Stein
Entangled World explores our greatest, interrelated social, economic, ecological, and technological global challenges, their underlying drivers, and how a more beautiful world might emerge.
Entangled World is a labor of love, I am deeply grateful for the generosity of my listeners and fans. Please consider donating at Patreon.
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit najialupson.substack.com -
My guest today is Manda Scott. Manda started life as an equine veterinary surgeon and is now a novelist, host of the Accidental Gods podcast, (r)evolutionary and smallholder. Her Boudica: Dreaming novels were international best-sellers and led to her teaching shamanic dreaming for the past two decades. She is the co-creator of the Thrutopia Masterclass, aiming to furnish writers with the ideas and concepts necessary to create stories that will carry us through to a future we’d be proud to leave behind.
Manda’s story is fascinating and she shares insights she’s gained through unconventional ways that expand how we think we come to know things. She talks about the need for a conscious evolution in human consciousness and how our current worldview paradigm is deeply rooted in a story of scarcity, separation, and powerlessness. But this is not a “true” story…and we can collectively re-write a new one.
Manda says that it's time for humanity to evolve our consciousness and understand our place in the web of life and she believes we can play an active role in its evolution and that connecting to the web of life is HOW we do it. This is a wide-ranging conversation, we talk about shamanic practices, economics, artificial intelligence (AI), mass social movements, and much more.
I hope you enjoy the episode, if you do please subscribe or follow on your favorite podcast app or the entangledworldpod YouTube channel.
Entangled World explores the interrelated, existential social, economic, ecological, and technological risks we face, their underlying drivers, and how a more beautiful world might emerge.
Entangled World is a labor of love, I am deeply grateful for the generosity of my listeners and fans. Please consider making a donation at patreon.com/entangledworld.
Manda Scott’’s Links & Resources:
Manda’s Site
Accidental Gods
Thrutopia Masterclass
Boudica Trilogy
Books mentioned:
The Dawn of Everything, David Graeber and David Wengrow
Debt, David Graeber
The Eagle of the Night, Rosemary Sutcliff
The Patterning Instinct, Jeremy Lent
The Web of Life, Jeremy Lent
Building Tomorrow, Paddy Le Flufy
Other people and work mentioned:
Audrey Tang
Daniel Schmachtenberger, The Civilization Research Institute
Tristan Harris & Asa Raskin, Center for Humane Technology, Your Undivided Attention podcast
The Other Side of Eden, Hugh Brody
The Master and His Emissary, Iain McGilchrist
Zineb Mouhyi https://www.youthxyouth.com
Angharad Wynne https://www.angharadwynne.com/
Paddy Le Flufy https://paddyleflufy.com/
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit najialupson.substack.com -
My guest today is Kathleen Rude. Kathleen is a shamanic practitioner, teacher and ceremonial leader and she fell in love with the natural world as a young child and found her voice for environmental activism at the tender age of 10.
She was raised liberal Lutheran in a household steeped in Jungian psychology. She was initiated by Blackfoot, Northern Ute, and Lakota elders into indigenous spiritual practices and studied core shamanism with Betsy Bergstrom and Sandra Ingerman.
She was also mentored by Joanna Macy, internationally acclaimed eco-philosopher and root teacher of the Work That Reconnects. She serves as a Weaver in the Work That Reconnects Network.
Kathleen shares how the teachings of indigenous elders have profoundly influenced her beliefs about humanity not being separate from nature but part of it and brought an added dimension to her activism and conservation work.
She also began to see how interconnected the issues she was working on were and how trying to solve them in isolation is not only not impossible, but also futile.
We dig deeper into Joanna Macy’s work so if you’ve been curious about that either as someone who wants to experience it or facilitate it, this episode will give you a great overview. Kathleen’s journey is a wonderful example of how allowing your passion, interest, and values to guide you opens the doorway for you to offer what you are uniquely and meaningfully here to bring into the world.
I hope you enjoy the episode, if you do please subscribe or follow on your favorite podcast app or the entangledworldpod YouTube channel.
Kathleen’s Links & Resources:
Website
Facebook group
Redemption of the Red Fire Woman, Kathleen Rude
Books Mentioned:
We Are Water Protectors (Children’s book)
From What is to What If?, Rob Hopkins
Other Resources:
Work that Reconnects Network
Warm Data Labs led by Nora Bateson
Entangled World explores the interrelated, existential social, economic, ecological, and technological risks we face, their underlying drivers, and how a more beautiful world might emerge.
Entangled World is a labor of love, I couldn’t keep this podcast going without the generosity of my listeners and fans. Please consider making a donation at patreon.com/entangledworld.
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit najialupson.substack.com -
My guest today is Rachel Donald. Rachel investigates why the world is in crisis—and what to do about it. A climate corruption journalist, she is the creator of Planet: Critical, a podcast & newsletter read in over 125 countries, which explores the intersection of the energy, economic, ecological and equity crises. She also regularly presents on the relationship between systems and narrative, and is currently writing a book on violence.
Rachels speaks about her experience as a climate corruption journalist and how her reporting has revealed patterns of exploitation and extraction that are rooted in perverse economic systems. She talks about how she initially thought business was the answer to the climate crisis and came to realize that our for-profit economic system is directly opposed to a liveable planet.
Rachel explores how our capitalist system commodifies everything and pulls us apart so we can no longer rely on the collective and are forced to meet our needs in increasingly individualistic ways. We talk about where our ideas of separation might have originally come from…could it have been back in the days of Plato and Descartes who talked about the split between the body and mind, could it have been the invention of the plow which required us to feel like separate and superior beings to animals because you couldn’t torture an ox all day to do your farming work for you and still believe in its sacredness? However, our ideas of separation emerged, our fragmented consciousness may underlie the global challenges we face and a return to wholeness is now needed to avoid civilizational collapse. To close, Rachel shares inspiring examples of incredible work being done by people around the globe co-creating a more flourishing future.
This is a wide-ranging conversation! I hope you enjoy it, if you do please subscribe or follow on your favorite podcast app or the entangled world Youtube channel.
Rachel’s Links & Resources:
Planet: Critical
Planet: Critical at OST
Matt Leighninger, Planet: Critical podcast
Simon Michaux, Planet: Critical podcast
Ashish Kothari, Planet: Critical podcast
Books Mentioned:
The Dawn of Everything, David Graeber and David Wengrow
Other Resources:
Mongabay: independent news site that covers what’s happening to vulnerable people around the world, particularly indigenous peoples.
Johan Rockstrum, Planetary Boundaries
Black Mountains College
Entangled World explores our greatest, interrelated social, economic, ecological, and technological global challenges, their underlying drivers, and how a more beautiful world might emerge.
YouTube
Apple Podcasts
Spotify
Entangled World is a labor of love, I couldn’t keep this podcast going without the generosity of my listeners and fans. Please consider making a donation at patreon.com/entangledworld.
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit najialupson.substack.com -
My guest today is Della Duncan, a Renegade Economist. Areas of her livelihood garden include supporting individuals as a Right Livelihood Coach, helping transition businesses and organizations as a post-capitalist consultant, teaching and facilitating courses and retreats on the Work that Reconnects and Regenerative Economics, and hosting the Upstream Podcast which challenges mainstream economic thinking through documentaries and conversations including most recently, The Green Transition: The Problem with Green Capitalism and The Myth of Freedom Under Capitalism.
Our current global capitalist economic system has provided many benefits to humanity AND the system was designed for those benefits to accrue to those at the top, which is one of the reasons we have such massive inequality around the globe. Della and I talk about how capitalism is more like modern-day slavery and a tool for white supremacy and patriarchy. It is fueling the destruction of the planet, from which it is compelled to extract and it’s a system that can’t last forever and will eventually topple under its own weight.
Della challenges the assumptions that are built into mainstream economics: that nature is commodifiable and we can objectify it and put a price on it, that humans are selfish beings out for our own self-interest, that work is something we don’t value or enjoy doing, that humans aren’t capable of collectively taking care of the land and that it must be privatized to be cared for, and the biggest assumption of all: that limitless growth on a finite planet is possible and even desirable.
I hope you enjoy the episode, if you do please subscribe or follow on your favorite podcast app or on the entangledworldpod YouTube channel.
Della’s Links & Resources:
Website
Upstream Podcast
Upstream Podcast, Ep 16: The Myth of Freedom Under Capitalism (Documentary)
Social Media handles: @upstreampodcast and @dellazduncan
Books mentioned:
Less is More, Jason Hickel
The Divide, Jason Hickel
Winners Take All, Anand Giridharadas
How on Earth: Imagining a Not for Profit World by 2050, Jennifer Hinton
Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, Robert Persig
100 Years of Psychotherapy And the World’s Only Getting Worse, Michael Ventura, James Hillman
Braiding Sweetgrass, Robin Wall Kimmerer
Other people and work mentioned:
Does Studying Economics Breed Greed, Adam Grant
Limits to Growth, Donella Meadows
Leverage Points: Places to Intervene in a System, Donella Meadows
The Serviceberry: An Economy of Abundance, Robin Wall Kimmerer
Entangled World explores our greatest, interrelated social, economic, ecological, and technological global challenges, their underlying drivers, and how a more beautiful world might emerge.
YouTube
Apple Podcasts
Spotify
Entangled World is a labor of love, I couldn’t keep this podcast going without the generosity of my listeners and fans. Please consider making a donation at patreon.com/entangledworld.
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit najialupson.substack.com -
My guest today is Bayo Akomolafe (Ph.D.). Bayo is rooted with the Yoruba people in a more-than-human world, is the father to Alethea and Kyah, the grateful life-partner to Ije, son and brother. A widely celebrated international speaker, posthumanist thinker, poet, teacher, public intellectual, essayist, and author of two books, These Wilds Beyond our Fences: Letters to My Daughter on Humanity’s Search for Home (North Atlantic Books) and We Will Tell our Own Story: The Lions of Africa Speak, Bayo Akomolafe is the Founder of The Emergence Network and host of the postactivist course/festival/event, ‘We Will Dance with Mountains’.
This is a conversation about becoming. Bayo says “our culture sees growth and development as the only algorithm for creating sociality.” We discuss the gifts of disruption and the shackles of belonging. Bayo says, “we need to ‘dis-belong’ in order to become bodies…that disruption is how the world feels into itself.”
We talk about our challenges with parenting and how our children are our greatest teachers. What if we treated our children as cosmic disruptions?
We talk about racial inequality and what’s wrong with efforts to “bring marginalized people to the tables of power” because it still requires you to fit within the existing power regime, within the existing way of being.
While we don’t discuss the metacrisis in detail in this conversation, everything we talk about is very much relevant to how we show up to do the work of addressing the metacrisis. In fact, this conversation is all about “how” we do the work which is just as important as “what” we do.
For those of us who are parents in particular working to address our greatest global challenges, I think this is a conversation you will love.
Links & Resources:
Bayo’s Website
What I Mean by Postactivism article
These Wilds Beyond Our Fences, Bayo Akomolafe
entangled world explores our greatest, interrelated social, economic, ecological, and technological global challenges, their underlying drivers, and how a more beautiful world might emerge.
YouTube
Apple Podcasts
Spotify
Entangled World is a labor of love, I couldn’t keep this podcast going without the generosity of my listeners and fans. Please consider making a donation at patreon.com/entangledworld.
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit najialupson.substack.com -
My guest today is Jeremy Lent. Jeremy has been described by Guardian journalist George Monbiot as “one of the greatest thinkers of our age”. Jeremy is an author and speaker whose work investigates the underlying causes of our civilization’s existential crisis, and explores pathways toward a life-affirming future. His award-winning books, The Patterning Instinct: A Cultural History of Humanity’s Search for Meaning, and The Web of Meaning: Integrating Science and Traditional Wisdom to Find Our Place in the Universe, trace the historical underpinnings and flaws of the dominant worldview, and offer a foundation for an integrative worldview that could lead humanity to a flourishing future. He has written extensively about the vision and specifics of an ecological civilization and is founder of the Deep Transformation Network, an online global community of over 3,000 people engaging with others in facilitating a deep transformation toward a life-affirming future on a regenerated Earth.
Jeremy says culture shapes, values shape history, and our values will shape the future. He shares a fascinating story about Christopher Columbus and Admiral Zheng that points to why Europeans came to dominate the world and spoiler alert…it has to do with the differences between what these two different cultures valued.
We talk about the universal values that indigenous cultures around the world share such as looking at other species not as separate from us as humans, but as our relatives, seeing nature as one extended family. Western science has now validated this view by finding much of the genes of all species are shared. Jeremy believes we are in the process of undergoing one of the greatest transformations in human history and our work now is to transition to an ecological civilization that deeply understands humans are just one part of the web of life.
I hope you enjoy the episode, if you do please subscribe or follow on your favorite podcast app or the entangledworldpod YouTube channel.
Jeremy’s Links & Resources:
Jeremy's website
The Patterning Instinct, Jeremy Lent
The Web of Meaning, Jeremy Lent
Principles of Deep Transformation, Gaia Education
Books Mentioned:
The Tao is Silent, Raymond Smullyen
The Art of the Warrior, Sun Tzu
The Kinship Worldview, Four Arrows and Darcia Narvaez
Other Resources:
The Great Simplification Podcast, Nate Hagens
Entangled World explores our greatest, interrelated social, economic, ecological, and technological global challenges, their underlying drivers, and how a more beautiful world might emerge.
Entangled World is a labor of love, I couldn’t keep this podcast going without the generosity of my listeners and fans. Please consider making a donation at patreon.com/entangledworld.
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit najialupson.substack.com - Mehr anzeigen
