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What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Liam Moroney, Co-Founder of Storybook Marketing.
Summary: Liam handed us warm tea and one of his hand-knitted beanies as we explored how marketing goes beyond just hitting pipeline numbers. It’s about building trust, shaping perceptions, and ensuring your brand is top-of-mind when it matters. Balancing short-term wins with long-term brand-building is crucial, yet often misunderstood. Clear communication and a broader approach to measuring impact are key. For startups, focusing on trust and credibility lays the foundation for success. Marketing’s true power lies in creating a lasting impact that drives real decisions.About Liam
Liam started his career in various industries wearing several different marketing hats
Eventually he landed at NewsCred, a content marketing agency for enterprise teams where he started leading Demand Gen before shifting to client side and advising clients on attribution and ROI
He then had Revenue Marketing leadership stints at various startups across different industries like personalization, travel, mobile and identity verification
He then started his entrepreneurial journey by founding a consulting firm for growth-stage B2B companies
Liam is also a contributing writer at Martech.org and recently started his own podcast called The B2B Brand
Today Liam is the co-founder of Storybook Marketing, a full-service demand gen agency for B2B SaaS specializing in paid media programs
Marketing’s Role Beyond the PipelineMarketing, historically viewed as the "arts and crafts department," has evolved significantly. Yet, according to Liam, there’s a lingering misperception, particularly in B2B, that needs addressing. When asked about his concerns with marketing being reduced to a mere pipeline number, Liam didn’t shy away from dissecting the issue. It’s not about rejecting accountability—marketing should indeed own a number. The real problem lies in how we've overcorrected, narrowing the focus to such an extent that it undermines the broader role marketing plays.
Liam points out that this shift in perception—driven by the need to demonstrate that marketing is a data-driven, outcome-producing function—has caused demand generation to become nearly synonymous with marketing. This reductionist view oversimplifies marketing’s contribution. When marketing is pigeonholed into a single metric, such as its share of the overall pipeline, it suggests that marketing is just another channel, responsible only for a fraction of the sales process. This perspective shortchanges the true purpose of marketing.
Liam believes that marketing's ultimate goal is to make the sales process smoother and more efficient. When more people know about a product, believe in its value, and have confidence in its efficacy, selling becomes easier. Marketing should be responsible for influencing the entire pipeline, not just a portion of it. The role of marketing is to make deals faster, bigger, and more frequent. By restricting marketing’s scope to its contribution to the pipeline, we inadvertently diminish its impact.
In B2C, marketing drives consumers directly to purchase. In B2B, it drives prospects into the sales process, partnering with salespeople to guide the purchase decision. While the dynamics differ, the overarching responsibility remains the same: marketing should facilitate the entire journey, not just the initial steps.
Key takeaway: Marketing should not be reduced to a pipeline number. Its true value lies in its ability to influence and enhance the entire sales process, driving not just awareness but also belief, confidence, and ultimately, conversion.
Balancing Short and Long-Term Marketing GoalsWhen asked about the perception that marketing hides behind long-term goals to avoid accountability, Liam was quick to dispel this myth. He argues that marketing isn’t unique in balancing both short and long-term objectives—many functions, like data science and financial advising, operate with a future-oriented perspective. Yet, marketing often faces undue scrutiny because it’s expected to produce immediate, tangible results each quarter.
Liam acknowledges that some of this mistrust is self-inflicted. Marketing has, at times, oversold its capabilities and doubled down on being seen solely as a pipeline-generating function. This narrow focus has contributed to the misconception that marketing’s only job is to deliver immediate results. However, Liam emphasizes that marketing's true role is both long-term and short-term. The primary objective is to generate future customers by building awareness, while also activating efforts that yield results today.
In B2B and B2C alike, successful marketing requires a dual approach. Brand awareness campaigns, for example, are designed to create a long-term impact by making more people aware of a product. Simultaneously, demand generation activities work to convert that awareness into action. The two functions are interdependent—effective demand gen relies on strong brand awareness, and vice versa.
Liam draws an interesting parallel with B2C marketing, where the distinction between long and short-term strategies is often clearer. Brand campaigns might run over months or years to build awareness, while in-store promotions are designed to trigger immediate purchases. The same principles apply in B2B marketing, where demand gen efforts must be supported by a solid foundation of brand awareness. Without this balance, even the best demand gen strategies will falter.
Key takeaway: Marketing must balance long-term brand building with short-term activation efforts. Success comes from integrating these approaches, ensuring that immediate demand generation is supported by strong brand awareness.
Educating Leadership on the Value of Brand MarketingWhen marketers find themselves trapped by the constant demand for immediate pipeline results, it can be challenging to advocate for the long-term value of brand building. Liam addresses this issue head-on, acknowledging that while it’s easy to champion long-term thinking on platforms like LinkedIn, the reality for in-house marketers is different. Every marketer has targets to meet, and failure to hit those can lead to quick dismissal. However, Liam emphasizes that this doesn’t mean abandoning the long-term strategy—rather, it’s about balancing both while educating leadership on what brand marketing truly entails.
Liam points out that part of the problem lies in a lack of education—both for marketers and the C-suite. Marketers need to articulate better what brand marketing is and how it contributes to the overall business objectives. However, the burden of education doesn’t end there. Liam advises against the common notion of only working for CEOs who "get" marketing, as those opportunities are rare. Instead, much of the work involves reeducating leaders on the role and impact of marketing.
The key, according to Liam, is alignment with the sales team. If sales perceive that marketing isn’t contributing to their efforts, it can create friction that quickly undermines marketing’s initiatives. By engaging in conversations with sales, marketers can uncover the real challenges that hinder sales efforts. For instance, if sales teams find themselves consistently listed last in RFPs, it might indicate a brand awareness issue. Or, if there’s a widespread misconception about pricing, that points to a perception problem that marketing can address.
By identifying these pain points and framing them as marketing challenges, marketers can gain the trust of their sales counterparts. This trust can, in turn, lead to greater permission to allocate resources toward long-term brand-building efforts. It’s not an overnight process, but Liam stresses that when done correctly,...
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What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Benoit Leggieri, Head of Growth at Livestorm.
Summary: Benoit offers a behind-the-scenes look at how Livestorm’s martech stack drives growth and personalization. At its heart is Customer.io, seamlessly integrated with tools like Amplitude, Segment, and Mutiny, creating a powerful system that delivers tailored experiences while scaling effortlessly. By leveraging data-driven workflows to address user needs with precision and automating processes like product certification, Livestorm not only boosts conversions but also deepens customer relationships. Their strategic use of gated content for complex demos further enhances engagement, showcasing a martech strategy that’s as effective as it is thoughtful.
Benoit started his career at a B2B comms agency before joining HUB Institute, Paris’ top think tank as a Growth marketerHe later joined an event software startup as a product marketing managerHe was also a part time trainer at a digital marketing school in ParisIn 2020 he joined Livestorm – the top video engagement software – as a growth manager to work CRO and after only a year he was promoted to Growth Lead and later Head of Growth where he leads a team of 3 growth managers
About BenoitLivestorm’s Martech Stack Built for Personalization and Retention
Livestorm’s martech stack is a powerhouse, meticulously crafted to enhance every stage of the customer journey. They use Customer.io, Hubspot, SEMRush, and Clay and Benoit unpacks a few other elements. The stack also features Amplitude, the go-to tool for analyzing website conversion rates. Amplitude also helps identify exactly where the user experience can improve, turning insights into action.
Mutiny takes center stage for personalization. By tailoring website content to specific industries and personas, it ensures that each visitor feels like the site was made just for them. Whether it’s through social proofs or custom messaging, this tool helps Livestorm engage B2B clients on a deeper level, making every interaction count.
Segment serves as the backbone of data management. It captures user data and seamlessly distributes it across various platforms, from email marketing to in-app messaging. This orchestration guarantees that every touchpoint with the customer is personalized and relevant, driving better engagement and retention.
Benoit also gives a nod to Refiner, a key player in capturing user feedback. Whether it’s through NPS surveys or specific feedback on new features, Refiner ensures Livestorm stays in tune with its users. Integrated with Segment, it not only gathers data but triggers timely follow-ups, helping to refine the product based on real user input.
Key takeaway: A well-integrated martech stack is essential for delivering personalized experiences and driving user retention. Tools like Amplitude, Mutiny, Customerio.io and Segment work together to create a seamless journey, while Refiner ensures user feedback directly informs product improvements.
The Orchestrator and the Center of Your Martech StackBenoit doesn’t hesitate when asked about the centerpiece of Livestorm’s martech stack. For him, the core has always been their marketing automation tool, Customer.io. This tool has been instrumental since Livestorm's early days, especially when they were a small, self-serve business. Benoit attributes much of their growth to the strategic use of Customer.io, which not only automated specific messaging but also provided critical insights into the buyer's journey. The integration with Segment further amplified its impact, allowing Livestorm to capture and utilize data points effectively, which in turn, scaled conversions and expanded their customer base.
As Livestorm grew, so did the complexity of their martech stack. Benoit mentions that as the company evolved, the data warehouse and Customer Data Platform (CDP) began playing a more significant role. Yet, despite this evolution, he remains adamant that the true orchestrator of their stack continues to be Customer.io. Its role in managing and optimizing the buyer journey is so ingrained in their operations that it remains central, even as new tools and processes are introduced.
This perspective reflects a broader trend where companies initially rely heavily on marketing automation tools as their primary orchestrator. But as they scale and gather more data, the role of CDPs and data warehouses becomes increasingly important. However, for Livestorm, the foundational importance of a tool like Customer.io cannot be overstated, especially given its ability to adapt and integrate as the company’s needs grew more complex.
The evolution of Livestorm’s stack from a single orchestrator to a more complex, data-driven system underscores the importance of flexibility and scalability in martech tools. While the CDP and data warehouse have become critical, the consistent thread has been Customer.io’s capacity to grow with them, demonstrating that even as the tech stack evolves, the initial building blocks remain crucial.
Key takeaway: The backbone of a successful martech stack often starts with a solid marketing automation tool. As a company scales, additional tools like CDPs and data warehouses become vital, but the original orchestrator, like Customer.io in Livestorm’s case, continues to play a crucial role in managing and optimizing the customer journey.
Why Customer.io Stands Out for LivestormWhen asked about what makes Customer.io a standout tool for Livestorm, Benoit highlighted three key features that have made it indispensable to their marketing efforts.
1 - First on the list is data integration. Benoit praises the seamless connection between Customer.io and their Customer Data Platform (CDP), Segment. This integration enables Livestorm to map user events and attributes effortlessly, which in turn allows for highly personalized messaging. By leveraging this data, the team can trigger specific campaigns at the perfect moment for each user, ensuring that every message is relevant and timely.
2 - The second feature Benoit appreciates is the user experience (UX) and user interface (UI) of the platform. Onboarding new team members has been straightforward, thanks to Customer.io’s intuitive design. The visual workflow builder simplifies the process of creating and editing campaigns and emails, making it easy for the entire team to collaborate and execute strategies without unnecessary complications.
3 - Finally, Benoit highlights the segment builder as a crucial tool in their arsenal. Managing recipient lists can be a nightmare in many platforms, but Customer.io’s approach, with tags and naming conventions, makes it much easier to organize and clean up lists. This feature not only improves efficiency but also ensures that Livestorm’s campaigns reach the right audience every time.
Key takeaway: Customer.io excels in data integration, intuitive UX/UI, and efficient segment management, making it a powerful tool for personalized marketing campaigns. These features have allowed Livestorm to optimize their messaging and ensure smooth operations across their team.
Crafting Revenue-Driving Workflows with Customer.ioBenoit shares a fascinating look at how Livestorm has leveraged Customer.io to create sophisticated workflows, particularly those focused on driving revenue. This year, the team concentrated on revenue-centric workflows, addressing challenges like incomplete subscriptions and payment issues—common hurdles in any SaaS business.
One notable experiment revolved around abandoned carts. By integrating Customer.io with their data stack, they tracked users who landed on the billing page but didn’t complete their transactions. This e-commerce-in...
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What’s up everyone, today I have the pleasure of sitting down with Pranav Piyush, Co-Founder and CEO at Paramark.
Summary: Pranav guides us out of the labyrinth of multi-touch attribution under the clear sky of incrementality and causality, urging marketers to focus on whether their efforts genuinely drive sales that wouldn’t happen otherwise. Early-stage startups can benefit by prioritizing simple methods like geo-based testing over complex attribution models, allowing intuition to guide resourceful experimentation. By understanding the underlying motivations and true causality behind customer actions, marketers can craft campaigns that resonate deeply and drive real results. As businesses grow, balancing intuition with structured analytics becomes crucial. Holdout tests and marketing mix modeling provide actionable insights, ensuring strategies remain effective in a competitive landscape. This approach transforms marketing from a cost into an investment in sustainable growth, making each dollar count.
Pranav started his career at well known brands like PayPal and DropboxHe co-founded Padlet, the popular collaboration app to make school less boringHe’s former Head of Growth at Magento and Pilot.com before becoming VP of Marketing at BILLHe’s also a Reforge Instructor for a new marketing measurement courseAnd in March of last year, Pranav co-founded Paramark to help marketers measure and forecast the impact of their investments
About Pranav
What’s More Valuable? Analytical Skills or Creative Taste?Marketing's creative nature often gets overshadowed by the obsession with data. Recently, HubSpot’s co-founder Brian Halligan suggested that marketers with good taste are undervalued compared to those with analytical skills. Pranav agrees, arguing that creativity now drives the most significant impact in marketing. We often question the overuse of the term "data-driven" in marketing, suggesting a shift towards being more "creatively driven." Pranav responds, arguing that data-driven and data-informed are all kind of bullshit. Relying solely on being "data-informed" is not sufficient. He emphasizes that without the ability to discern the success of a creative idea through data, creativity alone falls short.
Marketers face the challenge of making memorable impressions on people they've never met, and this requires innovation and creativity. While data is essential, Pranav notes that many marketers don't truly understand the depth of analytical skills. True data literacy involves grasping complex concepts like correlation and causation, which are often missing in marketers' education.
Pranav points out that the dichotomy between creativity and analytics is overly simplistic. Marketers need to integrate both skills. This blend is crucial not only in marketing but in other business functions like product development. He uses the example of launching a feature and gauging its success. If only 10% of the customer base uses it, understanding the broader impact on adoption, revenue, and retention is essential.
Despite recognizing the importance of analytical skills, Pranav emphasizes that good taste in marketing offers a unique advantage. Creativity leads to building compelling campaigns that resonate more profoundly with audiences. This insight suggests that while data provides valuable insights, it is creativity that ultimately distinguishes successful marketing efforts. Pranav further highlights the importance of rigorous testing and measurement. A successful feature or campaign isn't just about positive feedback; it needs to contribute to tangible business outcomes, such as increased revenue or cost savings. Without proper measurement, the value of creative initiatives remains unclear.
Key takeaway: To truly excel in marketing, you need to embrace a harmonious balance between analytical skills and creative taste. This means honing your ability to interpret data while also nurturing your creative instincts to craft memorable campaigns. Instead of relying solely on data or creativity, focus on integrating these skills. Use data to measure the success of your creative ideas, ensuring they lead to meaningful business outcomes like increased revenue or customer retention. By blending data literacy with creative insight, you'll develop campaigns that resonate deeply and drive tangible results.
Understanding Incrementality in MarketingWe often hear marketers claiming they understand ROI and reporting, yet the concept of incrementality often eludes them. Pranav sheds light on this by differentiating between attribution and incrementality. Attribution, as he explains, is rooted in the idea of cause and effect. However, its usage has been diluted over time, losing its original meaning.
Pranav appreciates our provided definition of incrementality: business results from marketing campaigns or channels that wouldn’t have occurred otherwise. He elaborates that if a prospect would have purchased a product without the influence of marketing, then that marketing effort isn't incremental. Conversely, if a prospect's decision to buy is directly influenced by marketing, then that effort is incremental.
He emphasizes the importance of understanding incrementality beyond traditional marketing channels, especially in B2B contexts. This involves considering scaled sales channels, partner channels, and affiliate channels. The essence of incrementality lies in recognizing the true impact of marketing efforts on sales and other business outcomes.
Pranav's insights underscore the need for marketers to move beyond surface-level metrics and understand the deeper implications of their strategies. By focusing on incrementality, they can more accurately measure the effectiveness of their campaigns and make informed decisions that drive real business growth.
Key takeaway: Focus on incrementality to truly gauge your marketing impact. Instead of just relying on attribution metrics, assess whether your efforts genuinely drive sales that wouldn't have happened otherwise. By understanding and applying incrementality across all channels, you can refine your strategies and foster real business growth.
Unpacking Multi-Touch AttributionMulti-touch attribution (MTA) often gets hailed as the holy grail of marketing measurement. Many believe it's essential to solve attribution by capturing all touchpoints. However, Pranav argues that the obsession with MTA overlooks fundamental issues, particularly around causality.
When discussing attribution, we need to understand cause and effect. Pranav illustrates this with a simple example: if someone clicks on a Google link and converts, did that click cause the conversion? Sometimes it does, but other times it doesn't. He emphasizes the need to ask, "What prompted the search in the first place?" Without knowing this, we aren't truly understanding causality. We're merely observing sequences of actions without grasping their underlying motivations.
Pranav criticizes the current approach to MTA, which often amounts to behavioral analytics. This method logs sequences like A led to B led to C, but it doesn't clarify if A caused B. This lack of clarity is compounded by pressures on marketing and analytics teams to produce quick results, pushing them towards convenient but superficial solutions.
The martech industry, according to Pranav, has profited from building easy, superficial tools rather than delving into the complex but necessary task of understanding true causality. He believes this approach must change for the industry to advance meaningfully. By focusing on more robust methodologies, marketers can gain genuine insights into the effectiveness of their campaigns.
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What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Jacqueline Freedman, CEO and Founder at Monarch Advisory Partners.
Summary: Jacqueline straps on her jetpack and invites us to soar through the martech skies, teaching us how to navigate the journey of becoming an independent martech advisor. From hands-on execution tasks strategy and advisory projects and assembling a futuristic composable martech stack, we cover a lot of air miles. We navigate the build versus buy decision in martech, the realities of composable CDPs and embracing user-friendly modern marketing automation tools.
About Jacqueline
Jacqueline started her career in Account and relationship management before joining WeWork where she would eventually settle into a Global Engagement Marketing and Operations Manager role as the fifth marketing hire during the company’s hyper-growth She later joined an email and lifecycle growth agency as the 2nd team member and built out their NYC office where she worked with startups ranging from seed to series CShe then moved over to Grammarly as the founding Marketing Operations hire where she built out the B2B MOPs team and led their marketing technology stack to support their transition to a B2B2C companyAnd recently Jacqueline strapped on her jetpack and went out on her own as a solopreneur founding Monarch Advisory Partners, a full-stack Marketing Ops and Martech consultancy
Why Introspection is the Secret Weapon for Aspiring EntrepreneursJacqueline, reflecting on her transition from Grammarly to entrepreneurship, reveals the depth of her decision-making process. With a family history rooted in entrepreneurship, Jacqueline always envisioned herself running her own business. Observing her father and grandfather, she felt like she had a front-row seat to an MBA. This early exposure planted the seed of entrepreneurship, but it wasn’t until she recognized her unique skill set that she felt truly ready to take the plunge.
The decision wasn’t impulsive. Jacqueline emphasized the role of introspection and reflection in her journey. She spent a year contemplating the right moment, fueled by her natural tendency to overthink. Through late nights and early mornings, she assessed her career achievements, from scaling WeWork during its prime to steering Grammarly’s shift to B2C. These experiences solidified her belief in her capabilities, leading her to recognize that she was ready for the entrepreneurial leap.
Jacqueline’s courage was also bolstered by her practical approach. While at Grammarly, she had already begun advising several founders, driven by her passion for problem-solving rather than monetary gain. These conversations not only honed her skills but also provided a soft landing into entrepreneurship. By the time she officially launched her business, she had a lineup of clients ready, thanks to her reputation and the support of colleagues and partners who championed her abilities.
Her journey highlights the importance of strategic preparation and the value of building a strong professional network. Jacqueline’s story is a testament to how a combination of introspection, practical experience, and a supportive community can make a significant career transition smoother and more successful.
Key takeaway: Use introspection to identify your unique skills and career achievements. Reflecting on these aspects will not only boost your confidence but also clarify your readiness for major career changes, like transitioning to entrepreneurship.
How TV Dramatization Barely Scratches WeWork's Reality
When asked about the accuracy of the WeWork TV show "WeCrashed" on Apple TV, Jacqueline offered a candid perspective. Having watched all the content related to WeWork, she noted that "WeCrashed" starring Jared Leto and Anne Hathaway, came closest to capturing the essence of the events. However, she emphasized that the series only scratched the surface of what truly transpired.
Jacqueline explained that while the series contained a kernel of truth, the actual events at WeWork were far more intense. Everything depicted in the show was amplified tenfold in reality. This amplification was very much in line with WeWork's brand, known for its high-energy and sometimes chaotic environment. She described her experience of watching the dramatization as somewhat PTSD-inducing due to its accuracy in portraying the underlying ethos of WeWork.
Despite the dramatization, Jacqueline found it fascinating and somewhat validating to see the story unfold on screen. The series succeeded in conveying the core truth of WeWork's journey, even if it couldn't fully encapsulate the extremities of the real-life scenarios. For Jacqueline, revisiting those memories through the show was a mixed experience, balancing between validation and the resurfacing of intense memories.
Her insights underscore the dramatic nature of WeWork’s history and how media adaptations, while engaging, often have to simplify or condense reality. For viewers, it’s a reminder that behind the scenes, the stories of such companies are often more complex and multifaceted than any series can fully capture.
Key takeaway: Jacqueline noted that while "WeCrashed" captured the essence of WeWork, it only scratched the surface of the true events, which were far more intense. The dramatization, though somewhat accurate and PTSD-inducing, validated the chaotic environment of WeWork. However, she emphasized that media adaptations often simplify the complexities of real-life scenarios.
How to Become a Martech Advisor
Balancing Hands On Execution Projects vs Strategic AdviceJacqueline addresses the nuanced demands of clients in marketing operations (MOPs). While she shares a passion for every facet of MOPs, she acknowledges a point in her career where hands-on tasks like copywriting and sending emails no longer align with her long-term vision. This shift towards focusing on advisement and strategy is something she enjoys, and it's about setting clear expectations from the start with clients.
Each client’s needs vary, which Jacqueline finds exciting. However, it necessitates clear communication about what she offers. When clients require extensive lifecycle or demand generation email execution, Jacqueline is upfront about her role. If it's a short-term need, she might handle it, but for long-term commitments, she refers them to trusted partners. She mentions firms like Modular Marketing and Ragnarok, highlighting her strong relationships with these agencies. This symbiotic partnership ensures clients get top-notch service while allowing Jacqueline to concentrate on strategic advisement.
By focusing on strategy, Jacqueline can provide high-level insights and direction that impact her clients' overall marketing operations. She values the ability to step back from the minutiae and look at the bigger picture, helping businesses navigate their marketing landscapes more effectively. This approach not only suits her professional growth but also ensures her clients receive specialized, high-quality execution from her partners.
Jacqueline’s journey exemplifies the importance of evolving in one’s career and recognizing when to delegate tasks that no longer fit one’s vision. It’s about leveraging strengths and building a network of reliable partners to deliver comprehensive solutions. Her ability to set expectations and offer strategic guidance is a testament to her experience and foresight in the marketing operations field.
Key takeaway: When transitioning to a more strategic consulting role, clearly communicate your focus and delegate hands-on tasks to trusted partners. This allows you to leverage your strengths, provi...
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What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Simon Heaton, Director of Growth Marketing at Buffer.
Summary: Simon helps us explore Buffer's martech journey, highlighting their shift from traditional tools to a product-led approach driven by data and server-side analytics. We unpack their use of Customer.io for automation and hold out testing, Redash for data insights, and their agile sprint model that fosters continuous innovation. Discover how Buffer's small team thrives with efficient, data-driven strategies.
About Simon
Simon started his career in the agency world at Banfield in Ottawa, CanadaHe later moved over to Shopify where he would spend nearly 7 years, first as a content Marketing Manager and later as the Senior Growth Lead, AcquisitionSimon’s also worn a part-time teaching hat for over 5 years, he was an Instructor with Telfer School of Management at UofO as well as a Professor at Algonquin CollegeHe’s a startup mentor for founders that are part of the Singapore-based equity fund at AntlerToday Simon is Director of Growth Marketing at Buffer, the world-renowned social media management platform
Buffer’s Marketing Tech Stack and Why it Doesn’t Include a CRMBuffer’s marketing strategy is unique. They don’t use a traditional CRM like HubSpot or Salesforce. Simon explains that Buffer is a product-led company without a dedicated sales team. This means they don't need typical CRM functionalities like lead routing and scoring. Instead, Buffer relies heavily on data and product analytics to drive their marketing efforts.
The core of Buffer’s operations is their data warehouse, with Segment acting as their Customer Data Platform (CDP). This setup allows Buffer to integrate various tools and centralize crucial information. Mixpanel, their product analytics tool, is pivotal in this system. It gathers both product usage and marketing data, providing a comprehensive view of user interactions.
Simon highlights the importance of server-side tracking and integrating data from diverse sources such as AdWords, Customer.io, and Pendo. This integration helps Buffer understand the user lifecycle and measure the impact of marketing efforts beyond basic website metrics.
Tools like Customer.io are also essential for Buffer. It manages most user communications, making it a critical component of their stack. The combination of Mixpanel, Customer.io, and other integrated tools ensures that Buffer can seamlessly track and analyze user behavior.
Key takeaway: Not all B2B companies need a CRM or a sales team. A product-led approach, using robust data and product analytics tools, can effectively drive your marketing efforts and provide comprehensive insights into user behavior.
The Power of a Visual and Intuitive Automation Flow InterfaceSimon loves working in a smaller team like Buffer, where he can get hands-on with their tools daily. He highlights how Buffer uses Customer.io for their marketing automation, a tool he's familiar with from his previous experience at Shopify. Unlike Shopify, which eventually switched to Salesforce Marketing Cloud for more enterprise-level needs, Buffer continues to thrive with Customer.io.
Buffer relies on Customer.io to manage email marketing, push notifications for mobile apps, and various communication programs. Simon appreciates how the tool handles both marketing and transactional communications, offering a unified view of user interactions. This integration ensures consistency in messages, whether they're marketing emails or product notifications.
Simon praises Customer.io's user-friendly interface, especially the journey mapping functionality and the WYSIWYG editor, which make it accessible for non-technical team members. Despite its ease of use, the platform also boasts deep technical capabilities, allowing for extensive customization through HTML and API integrations. This flexibility has been crucial for Buffer's needs.
The integration with Segment, Buffer's Customer Data Platform (CDP), is particularly valuable. Simon emphasizes that having all data in Segment and seamlessly integrating it with Customer.io enables precise data handling. This setup ensures accurate and timely data flow, essential for personalized and effective marketing automation workflows.
Key takeaway: Even as a small team, you can effectively manage complex marketing automation needs by choosing user-friendly tools like Customer.io that offer both simplicity and deep customization. This approach allows your non-technical team members to contribute meaningfully while ensuring your technical needs are met, enhancing overall efficiency and personalization in your communications.
Experimentation and Holdout Testing at BufferExperimentation is a cornerstone of Buffer’s approach, and Simon is particularly enthusiastic about the capabilities provided by Customer.io. He explains that the platform's holdout testing functionality is essential for validating new programs and comparing campaign performance. Unlike some tools, Customer.io counts a delivery for the holdout group, simplifying the tracking process over time.
The integration with Segment and Mixpanel is a game-changer for Buffer. This setup allows them to surface Customer.io data in Mixpanel, creating unique reports and dashboards to support their experiments. Tracking differences in behavior between groups becomes straightforward, thanks to the detailed delivery events logged for both test and holdout groups. This level of detail ensures that Buffer can effectively measure the impact of their campaigns.
Simon also highlights the ease of A/B testing within Customer.io. Whether at the message level or within workflows, the platform’s randomization logic allows for extensive testing. Buffer can run tests on content, sequencing, and other variables, ensuring they continually optimize their marketing efforts. The ability to branch workflows and test different variants simultaneously is particularly valuable, enabling ongoing experimentation.
Key takeaway: Leverage holdout testing and detailed event tracking within your marketing automation tools to gain deeper insights into your campaign effectiveness. This approach allows you to validate new programs, compare performance, and optimize your strategies based on precise, data-driven insights.
Testing Journeys and Templating Language with QA Draft ModeSimon praises Customer.io's QA draft mode, a feature he finds invaluable for Buffer’s marketing automation. This functionality allows the team to build complex workflows, trigger off specific data points, and test the entire process in a production environment without actually sending emails. It’s a unique capability that Simon has not found in other tools, making it a standout feature of Customer.io.
Simon highlights how QA draft mode lets them see real users qualifying for different branches of the workflow while emails remain in draft. This means they can verify that users are correctly segmented and the emails look as intended, all without prematurely sending any messages. This testing phase is crucial for catching errors that might not be evident during initial previews.
Buffer has used this feature for several initiatives, such as new onboarding iterations and product notifications. Given the high frequency and volume of these emails, ensuring everything works perfectly before going live is essential. Simon appreciates that once the testing phase is complete, it only takes a click to start sending the validated emails to users.
This capability saves time and reduces the risk of errors in live campaigns. It allows Buffer to maintain high st...
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What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Ashleigh Johnson, Marketing Technologist at Microsoft.
Summary: Ashleigh gives us a glimpse into the enterprise world of martech, and it might not be what you’re expecting. She emphasizes embracing the unexpected by seeking diverse roles and rotational programs. Building a personal network within large organizations like Microsoft is crucial for navigating corporate silos. Curiosity and people skills, including shadowing colleagues and effective communication, are paramount. Ashleigh highlights the need for robust documentation and the strategic use of AI for routine tasks to boost productivity. Finally, she advocates for marketers to lead AI deployment, ensuring flexibility and innovation by empowering tool owners to make technology-driven decisions.
About Ashleigh
Ashleigh started her career at Trend Micro, a global cybersecurity company as a Sales and Marketing Associate with rotations as a Lead Qualification Rep, then a Marketing Coordinator and finally a marketing Ops and Automation associateEventually she would get promoted to Marketing Automation Manager where she was responsible for all things building, QA and campaigns across a variety of martechShe then took on the role of Senior Marketing Operations Manager at Cornerstone OnDemand, a talent experience platform where she rolled out a Content Intelligence tool and a Webinar engagement platformToday Ashleigh is Marketing Technologist at Microsoft on their Platform Operations team where she strategizes and consults on how the martech stack is used across different workstreams of the business
Embracing Openness in Marketing CareersAshleigh highlights the significance of being open-minded in the marketing industry. She reflects on her early career, noting that she had no idea what martech was when she started. College had prepared her for traditional marketing roles—branding, PR, content management—not martech. She envisioned a straightforward path in these areas but ended up somewhere entirely different.
Her entry into martech came by chance, thanks to a rotation program at Trend. This experience unveiled a whole new side of marketing she hadn’t considered. Ashleigh stresses that there’s much more to marketing than what college teaches. She urges young professionals and students to stay open to various roles and experiences.
Ashleigh advises against the narrow approach of targeting only specific job types based on college education. She encourages a broader perspective, exploring different facets of marketing, and being receptive to opportunities that might initially seem outside one's defined path. This openness can lead to surprising and rewarding career paths, as it did for her.
Her journey exemplifies the benefits of keeping career options open and exploring the full spectrum of the marketing industry. By stepping outside conventional boundaries, one can discover new and exciting opportunities in martech and beyond.
Key takeaway: Embrace the unexpected by diversifying your job search beyond traditional roles. Actively seek out rotational programs or internships that expose you to different facets of marketing. This strategy will help you uncover hidden opportunities and potentially lead to a more fulfilling and dynamic career path.
Navigating Martech Silos at Giant CorporationsWorking at a behemoth like Microsoft offers a unique perspective on martech operations. Ashleigh, who has been with the company for two and a half years, admits that the scale still overwhelms her. Coming from smaller enterprises where she handled marketing operations for the entire company, the shift to Microsoft’s segmented structure has been significant.
At her previous companies, Ashleigh was part of small, global marketing ops teams, typically ranging from three to seven people. These teams managed the martech stack across the entire organization. In stark contrast, Microsoft’s martech environment is vast and compartmentalized. Multiple teams handle different aspects, and Ashleigh often finds it challenging to keep track of all the players and their roles.
Ashleigh's current role focuses on supporting enterprise cloud products and services, specifically in a pre-sales capacity. There are separate teams for post-sales, gaming, hardware, and other areas, each with their own martech stacks and operations. The sheer size of the company means that even after years, she doesn’t know all the teams or their specific functions.
Adjusting to this environment has required a significant mindset shift for Ashleigh. She’s accustomed to having a comprehensive view of martech operations, working closely with marketing and sales, and understanding the big picture. At Microsoft, she’s had to accept a more siloed view, focusing on her specific area and recognizing that she won't have visibility into all parts of the company. It’s a continuous learning process, and embracing this limited scope has been a significant adjustment.
Key takeaway: When transitioning to a larger organization, prioritize building a personal network within your company. Regularly schedule coffee chats or brief meetings with colleagues from different teams to understand their roles and how they intersect with yours. This will help you navigate the segmented structure and foster a more collaborative and informed working environment.
Why Microsoft’s Fast-Paced Culture Beats the Slow Corporate MythAshleigh values the collaborative culture at Microsoft. One of her favorite aspects is working with diverse teams and individuals. In such a large organization, there’s a role for everything, which means constantly interacting with new colleagues. This variety keeps her projects dynamic and introduces her to smart, creative minds across different domains.
When addressing common criticisms of enterprise environments, Ashleigh counters the notion that things move slowly. Contrary to the stereotype, she finds Microsoft’s pace anything but sluggish. There’s always a project in motion, and new initiatives constantly arise. This fast-paced environment ensures that her work remains engaging and ever-evolving.
Another positive is the breadth of experience she gains. Unlike the narrow focus some might expect, Ashleigh’s work spans various aspects of martech. Her background in events has expanded to encompass broader martech roles, offering her new perspectives and skills outside her previous specialization. This variety keeps her job interesting and allows her to grow continuously.
The enterprise environment at Microsoft provides Ashleigh with both depth and breadth in her career. She appreciates the chance to collaborate with a wide range of professionals and tackle diverse projects, all while maintaining a fast-paced, stimulating work environment.
Key takeaway: To maximize your growth in a large organization, actively seek out cross-functional projects that require collaboration with different teams. This approach will not only broaden your skill set but also help you build a diverse professional network, keeping your work dynamic and your career development continuous.
Why Curiosity Outranks Experience in Martech CareersCuriosity has been a cornerstone of Ashleigh's career in martech. She attributes much of her success to her insatiable curiosity and willingness to figure things out on her own. Unlike traditional roles with clear guidelines, martech often lacks a roadmap. This absence of predefined instructions demands a curious mindset, constantly seeking to understand how tools and technologies work.
Ashleigh enjoys shadowing senior team members, a practice she values dee...
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What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Siobhan Solberg, data privacy consultant and advisor.
Summary: Siobhan takes on a behind-the-scenes look at the hidden mechanics of data privacy, ethical marketing practices, and effective data management. Marketers often overlook the importance of data privacy, but the increase in data breaches shows that people do care about their data. To address this, marketers should experience tools from the customer’s perspective, implement regular data reviews, and foster collaboration between marketing and compliance teams. By breaking down the user journey into distinct phases, they can attribute value more effectively while minimizing data collection. Focusing on key metrics and regularly auditing for dark patterns will enhance user experience without deception. Prioritizing ethical practices and transparency builds trust and leads to more informed decisions and stronger customer relationships.
About Siobhan
Siobhan started her career as a classical musician in NY where she had various teaching roles, specializing in violin and violaSiobhan later moved abroad and pivoted to a content role at a media agency where she would spend almost 4 years working her way up to CRO Manager and later Head of BI & Optimization and finally CMOShe completed her Certified Information Privacy Manager and joined an accelerator programOn the back of this experience, Siobhan founded Raze a niche agency specializing solely in the measurement and optimisation of marketing data – which she ran for 5 successful yearsShe’s also the co-host of Marketing Unfucked, a podcast about all things data, ethics and privacy for marketing She’s currently studying towards an Advanced Masters of Laws in Privacy, Cybersecurity and Data ManagementToday she’s working as a data privacy consultant and advisor to tech startups who want to get it right from the start
Privacy Concerns and Cultural Differences in Data HandlingSiobhan dives straight into the issue of privacy and its varying levels of importance across different regions. She highlights a stark contrast between the United States and the European Union regarding privacy regulations and cultural attitudes. In the US, the adoption of stringent privacy measures lags significantly, partly due to cultural differences and the absence of comprehensive regulations. This has allowed some companies to exploit these gaps by selling data products that would be deemed illegal in many other parts of the world.
When asked about the prevalence of tools that exploit privacy laws and whether people genuinely care about their personal data being resold, Siobhan points out an interesting dichotomy. She references studies, particularly from the Netherlands, showing that while many people claim to care about privacy, their actions often tell a different story. There is a significant gap between expressing concern for privacy and taking concrete steps to protect it.
Siobhan believes that at a deeper level, everyone does care about their privacy. She mentions the common justification of having "nothing to hide" as a coping mechanism for the lack of control individuals feel over their personal data. This helplessness leads many to adopt a nonchalant attitude towards privacy. However, as incidents of data misuse and the ramifications of lost privacy become more apparent, even those previously indifferent are beginning to take notice.
In the European Union, the implementation of strict privacy regulations has fostered a culture of awareness and proactive measures. This early adoption has forced companies and individuals to prioritize privacy. Conversely, in the US, the conversation is only now gaining momentum, driven by emerging state regulations and the increasing misuse of personal data through advanced technologies like AI. This growing awareness is slowly shifting the cultural landscape towards a more privacy-conscious mindset.
Key takeaway: Challenge the notion that people don't care about privacy. Actively take steps to protect your data and demand transparency from companies, as the growing awareness and incidents of data misuse show that everyone values their privacy more than they might admit.
Why Marketers Must Rethink Privacy and Ethical PracticesSiobhan gets straight to the heart of ethical marketing. Marketers often face the challenge of using tools that skirt privacy laws. The advice she offers is simple: put yourself in the customer's shoes. She believes this empathetic approach is crucial. It’s a lesson we teach kids about bullying—how would you feel if it happened to you? Marketers should apply the same principle to their practices.
When asked about using questionable tools, Siobhan emphasizes the need to consider personal feelings. How would you feel if your email was shared without consent? Or if your personal information was used to cold email you? Most people wouldn’t appreciate it. Marketers need to step back and think about the human impact of their actions.
Siobhan points out a fascinating contradiction: many marketers use ad blockers themselves. They don’t want to see ads, yet they’re creating them for others. This highlights a disconnect. By putting themselves in the recipient’s shoes, marketers can make more ethical decisions. This approach doesn’t just make legal sense—it’s about making the right choice morally.
Cultural differences also play a role. Siobhan recalls a trip to Korea, where CCTV cameras are ubiquitous. What’s normal there might feel invasive elsewhere. Marketers must consider these cultural nuances. By understanding the context, they can make choices that respect privacy across different regions. The goal is to balance legality and ethics, making marketing more humane.
Key takeaway: Evaluate your marketing tools by experiencing them as a customer first. Before deploying any tool, use it on yourself to understand the privacy implications and emotional impact. This practice helps you make more ethical and customer-friendly decisions.
Avoiding Creepy Data Practices in Personalized MarketingMarketers often face the challenge of balancing necessary data tracking with personalization without crossing into creepy territory. Siobhan addresses this by acknowledging the delicate nature of data collection. Marketers need data to do their jobs effectively, but they must avoid overstepping boundaries. She recalls her time in measurement and technical marketing, describing it as a playground where data was plentiful, and the possibilities were endless. However, she emphasizes that what was once fun and innovative can now be seen as invasive.
When asked about maintaining this balance, Siobhan suggests that marketers must be mindful of consent. If a user willingly shares their data and understands the implications, marketers should feel free to use it. However, it's crucial to ensure that the user is genuinely aware of what they are agreeing to. The key is transparency and clear communication about data usage.
Siobhan also highlights the importance of being selective with data. Instead of collecting everything just in case, marketers should focus on the data they will actually use. This approach not only respects user privacy but also makes data management more efficient. Aggregated data can provide valuable insights without compromising individual privacy.
Finally, Siobhan acknowledges that balancing ethical considerations with business needs is not easy. Marketers must navigate regulations and user expectations while striving to achieve their goals. The challenge lies in finding creative solutions that respect privacy and deliver personalized experience...
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What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Sam Oh, VP of Marketing at Ahrefs.
Summary: Sam takes us on a masterclass covering SEO fundamentals, evolving search behaviors, AI in content marketing, refreshing attribution thoughts and work-life balance strategies. He advises sticking to proven SEO fundamentals and understanding search intent to meet audience needs. As search behavior evolves with tools like ChatGPT, he highlights the need for a diversified strategy across multiple platforms. He advocates for thoughtful AI integration to enhance research and streamline content creation. Finally, Sam shares Ahrefs' approach of prioritizing product quality and user-centric content over detailed attribution models, focusing on broad success indicators for effective decision-making and a fulfilling professional life.
About Sam
As a fresh Toronto grad out of University, Sam started a service based ecommerce site and got into black hat SEOHe grew traffic to this site and eventually sold it, this led Sam to “retire” – briefly – before experimenting with niche sites – he had one of those also acquiredHe also built an Amazon and Ebay business, where he would buy pallets of return goods from big merchandise stores and started a refurbishing center and reselling those goods online while sharpening his SEO skillsHe founded Money Journal where he published long form guides to help entrepreneurs grow their traffic and drive revenueThis naturally led Sam to co-founding a successful SEO and digital agency… but after a while, he was on kid number two and realized he wanted to leave the hustle lifestyleHe tried to get Ahrefs as a client for his agency by applying for a job and trying to turn it into a contract basis but in the end they won out and turned Sam into an employeeHe started without a title and was just asked to create educational videos and he turned that into as Director of Product Education and today he’s Sam is VP of Marketing at Ahrefs
Why Entrepreneurs Need to Rethink Work Life BalanceSam's path to Ahrefs was anything but traditional. Instead of following the common route of balancing entrepreneurial ventures with full-time roles, he fully immersed himself in starting businesses. From e-commerce to marketplace experiments, he thrived on innovation and problem-solving. But the relentless grind eventually took its toll, especially after a significant setback with Google's Penguin update on his first e-commerce site.
As he clocked in 16-17 hour days, the birth of his second child prompted a shift in priorities. The thought of missing out on his children's lives pushed Sam to rethink his approach. Was he destined to work endlessly or could he find a way to balance family and career? This question became pivotal as he sought more meaningful work-life integration.
Sam's connection with Ahrefs began as a client pursuit. After months of discussions with Tim Soulo, they decided to collaborate. Initially, Sam held onto his agency, unsure of the future. However, the move to Ahrefs proved to be an excellent match. The company offered him full autonomy and creative control, backed by substantial budgets and resources.
At Ahrefs, Sam feels a strong sense of ownership. The company's culture of trust and freedom aligns perfectly with his entrepreneurial spirit. This environment allows him to apply his skills effectively, achieving professional success without sacrificing personal fulfillment.
Key takeaway: Entrepreneurs often face the challenge of overcommitting to their ventures at the expense of personal life. Reassess priorities and seek roles that align with your values and lifestyle. Find work that offers autonomy and creative freedom so you can prioritize professional success and personal fulfillment.
SEO Experts Need to Stop Obsessing Over Algorithm Updates
Sam addresses the constant flux in the SEO world. His advice is refreshingly simple: focus on what works. Many SEO consultants, like the one asking the question, find themselves overwhelmed by the relentless updates and algorithm changes. Sam suggests that if your current strategies are effective, there’s no need to chase every new development.
For those engaging in practices clearly against Google’s guidelines, staying updated is crucial. However, for most people working on technical SEO—handling internal linking, crawling, and similar tasks—the updates can be more noise than necessity. The key is to concentrate on proven methods and adjust only when a significant change directly impacts your work.
Sam likens this to the hype around ChatGPT, where exaggerated claims cause unnecessary panic. He points out that this noise can lead to irrational fears, such as interns doubting their career choices. Instead of getting caught up in every new trend, it's better to stay grounded and focus on tangible results.
Ultimately, Sam’s approach is to avoid the hysteria surrounding new updates and technologies. He emphasizes the importance of sticking to solid SEO practices and avoiding the distractions that come with every new development.
Key takeaway: Focus on what works and avoid getting caught up in every SEO update. Don’t let every minor change disrupt your workflow. Concentrate on proven strategies and adapt only when necessary.
SEO Is Here to Stay Despite AI and Algorithm Changes
Sam doesn't believe SEO is dying anytime soon. The need to sort and index information isn't going away. Whether it's Google, YouTube, Pinterest, or Reddit, every platform with a search feature relies on SEO. Despite the industry's perennial claims of its demise, SEO remains crucial for organizing and optimizing content across the internet.
He addresses the divide within the SEO community: those who adhere to white hat tactics and those who dabble in black hat methods. The latter often tarnish the industry's reputation. Despite this, the fundamentals of SEO—technical optimization, quality content, and understanding search intent—continue to hold strong. Sam compares the scenario to the stock market, with pessimists always predicting crashes. He attributes some of the criticism to frustrations with search results often filled with copycat content, which he sees as a consequence of optimizing for search intent.
People tend to blame SEOs when they see repetitive content in search results. Sam explains that this is a result of everyone trying to match search intent, which can lead to similar content being ranked. He acknowledges that this might cause users to think SEO is at fault, but he views it as part of the game. SEOs are tasked with demonstrating to Google that their page is the best result for a query, often within the constraints of Google's guidelines.
Sam is confident that SEO won't be replaced soon. While AI and other technologies might change aspects of the industry, the core need for SEO remains. The industry will continue to evolve, but the fundamental skills and strategies of SEOs will stay relevant.
Key takeaway: SEO remains essential as long as search engines exist. Technical optimization, quality content creation, and understanding search intent are timeless strategies that remain effective despite algorithm changes and AI advancements.
How Content Marketers Can Stay Relevant with AI
Sam argues that SEO and content marketing are here to stay, even with the rise of AI. The key to thriving lies in effort, experience, and experimentation. Ryan Law’s article on this topic resonates with Sam, who emphasizes these principles for standing out in a crowded field.
Effort is paramount. Understanding your audience and delivering precisely what they need sets you apart. ...
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What’s up folks. We’ve got a fun episode today. If you’re a regular listener, you’ve heard me mention an article that’s been living rent free in my head for a while now.
Casey Winters, the former CPO at Eventbrite and an Instructor at Reforge, wrote an article titled “The Problems With Martech, and Why Martech is Actually for Engineers”. I’ve asked a lot of recent guests what their thoughts were on some of the arguments raised in the article. So today we’re going to respond to his claims.
Summary: Should you buy a 3rd party martech solution or build your own in-house tool, the answer is almost always buy. Let your in-house engineers focus on product and data while leveraging the cutting-edge solutions and support offered by specialized martech vendors. Unless you’re planning on building a martech company, leave the martech to the experts. Homegrown tools aren’t appealing to marketers, they’re hard to scale, most have a shitty UI and it’s not a recognisable martech tool you can add to your resume. Not only are homegrown martech tools not appealing to marketers, they are even less appealing to engineers. Engineers can’t stand the chaos of marketing and effective martech implementation requires collaboration between engineers and marketers, highlighting the need for cross-functional translators and disproving the claim that martech is actually only for engineers.
Martech Has Continued to Explode as a CategorySo the article we’re debating was written in 2019, that’s 5 years ago. That’s a boatload of time in martech so we can’t fault the author too much and I respect his bold claims. He starts off by stating:
“I hate martech, and think martech will decline as a category, and most martech businesses will not be very successful.”
Now we could spend a whole episode disproving this prediction… but obviously we have 5 years of hindsight.
But it is worth mentioning that he made this prediction on the year (2019) where the martech landscape exploded past 7,000 tools. Pretty bold to claim that it will decline as a category given the meteoric rise of tools up from only 350 in 2012. Scott Brinker recently released the state of martech in 2024 report which his team says they’ve seen the “largest number of new apps added to the martech landscape in the 13 years they’ve been curating it: net new growth of approximately 3,000 new tools.”
We’ve crossed 13,000 tools, nearly doubling the landscape from 2019 when Casey made his “bold prediction” that martech will decline as a category.
Number of tools isn’t the only way to evaluate whether martech has declined or not.
I’m not a big fan of Gartner reports but if that’s a more trusted source for you, they reported that in 2023 client organizations spent over 1/4 of their marketing budgets on technology. In terms of VC investments, LUMA reported a steady rise in martech acquisitions in Q3 of 2023, averaging over 40 per quarter, alongside substantial capital inflows into new ventures. This financial backing underscores confidence in the industry's future.
Okay… so Casey was wrong about martech declining as a category. But he did have some interesting arguments about why.
His main thesis is that: Martech faces decline due to in-house engineers who are increasingly handling tailored solutions in-house, and the success of vendors hinges primarily on serving those engineers, not marketers.
I’ve asked 8 recent guests on the podcast to read Casey’s article and share their thoughts.
What’s your take on this? Is martech actually for engineers?
Homegrown Marketing Technology Isn’t Attractive for Marketers or EngineersMartech Just Isn’t that Appealing for Most Engineers
Vish Gupta, Marketing Operations Manager at Databricks shared her perspective on whether martech is truly designed for engineers, challenging pretty much every single one of Casey’s viewpoints.
She started by expressing her disagreement with the idea that martech will decline due to competition from in-house engineers and platform limitations. "I don't think martech is the sexiest thing for an engineer to do," she noted. Vish argued that talented engineers building martech are more likely to work for CRM companies to enhance their products rather than find in-house martech development appealing.
Vish explained that building a CRM in-house is often not the best approach. She emphasized that knowing popular systems like Customerio, Marketo, and HubSpot adds more value. She questioned the practicality of finding the right talent for in-house solutions, given the complexities and specialized skills required.
Regarding the idea that successful martech companies cater primarily to engineers, Vish disagreed. "Martech teams are actually part engineer, part product marketer, part IT person, part biz ops," she said. She believes the value of an operations professional lies not in owning and maintaining tech but in resolving business problems by aligning the right people, technology, and tools to accelerate pipeline generation. The engineering work in martech spans across data, data engineering, IT, and business operations, but this is just one aspect of a martech professional's role.
Vish also questioned the notion that the rise of in-house engineers creating tailored solutions for their companies will lead to a decline in martech. "Just because you can, should you?" she asked. She emphasized the importance of a good quantification model and total cost of ownership (TCO) analysis when comparing in-house engineering teams to martech solutions.
She highlighted the challenges of integrating customer and product data in a compliant manner, which often requires a holistic approach. "It's not just your martech stack; where's your customer data living? Where is your product data living?" Vish noted. These challenges often make martech an operational project rather than just a marketing function.
Ultimately, Vish believes that martech will never be just for engineering. The value of a martech professional lies in understanding what marketers want to achieve and enabling them to get there. "The value is being able to see this is what the marketer wants to do, and here’s how we can enable them to get there and measure success," she explained. This holistic view is crucial for martech to function effectively, a perspective she feels engineers alone may not fully capture.
Key takeaway: In-house martech development is off-putting for most seasoned marketers. The preference is usually with popular systems like Customerio and HubSpot. Also, Martech just isn't that appealing to engineers. So martech can’t just be for engineers, it requires a blend of skills from marketing, IT, and operations. The real value of martech lies in enabling marketers and measuring success, a role not easily filled by engineers.
Engineers Can’t Stand the Chaos of Marketing
So far we’ve uncovered two themes: Marketers don’t find homegrown tools that appealing and engineers don’t find martech sexy. But why? Why isn’t martech appealing for engineers?
Let’s hear from the legendary Sara McNamara, former Senior Manager, Marketing Operations at Salesforce.. Her answer stemmed from the complexities and cultural challenges of integrating engineering into marketing operations.
Sara began by acknowledging the trend of engineers becoming more involved in creating custom solutions for marketing. However, she expressed skepticism about marketing operations teams becoming predominantly composed of engineers. She explained, "A lot of the engineers I've worked with cannot stand the chaos of marketing."
Engineers typically prefer clear requirements and stable projects, while marketing often involves rapid changes and freque...
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What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Vish Gupta, Marketing Operations Manager at Databricks.
Summary: This episode with Vish is jam packed with advice for marketers making their way through the martech galaxy. We touch on the pitfalls of Frankenstein stacks and the perks of self-service martech. Vish explains why martech isn't just for engineers and highlights the efficiency of customized Asana intake forms. We also tackle the dangers of over-specialization for senior leaders. Additionally, we explore the intersection of martech and large language models (LLMs), providing insights on how to stay ahead in the evolving landscape.
About Vish
Vish started started her career as a Business Analyst in sales ops at Riverbed, a network management companyShe later joined Redis Labs – a real time data platform – as a Marketing Coordinator and got her first taste of analytics and reporting covering social, paid and eventsShe had a short contract at Brocade where she was Marketing Ops specialist and worked closely with their data science team to develop marketing reporting using BIShe then joined VMware, the popular virtualization software giant just before they were acquired by Broadcom. She was both a marketing analyst and later shifted to Growth Analyst where she focused more on Go to market strategyToday Vish is Marketing Operations Manager at Databricks, a leader in data and AI tech valued at more than 40B
Influences from a Tech-Infused ChildhoodVish’s upbringing in a tech-savvy household shaped her career path significantly. Her parents, immigrants from India, transitioned into tech for better opportunities, despite initial dreams of cricket and architecture. This drive for a better lifestyle through technology was a core narrative in her family.
Interestingly, Vish initially rebelled against this tech-centric world. She pursued psychology, striving to carve out her unique path. However, practicality led her back to tech, aligning her career with her desired lifestyle. This shift wasn't romantic but highlighted her adaptability and strategic thinking.
Her parents' relentless upskilling and enthusiasm for technology left a lasting impression. Their constant engagement with new tools and innovations inspired Vish to embrace learning and staying current with tech trends. This mindset proved invaluable in her role at Databricks, where technological adeptness is key.
Growing up in Silicon Valley provided Vish with a unique network and role models in tech. This environment, combined with her parents' stories and actions, underscored the importance of tech as a vehicle for advancement and success.
Key takeaway: Vish's tech-centric upbringing, driven by her immigrant parents' pursuit of better opportunities, significantly shaped her career. Despite initially rebelling by studying psychology, practicality led her back to tech, showcasing her adaptability. Her parents' continuous upskilling inspired her commitment to learning, crucial in her role at Databricks.
Why Your Frankenstein Martech Stack is Sabotaging Your SuccessA Frankenstein martech stack is like a tech monster stitched together from mismatched parts, always on the brink of chaos. Avoiding the creation of a Frankenstein stack is challenging for any marketing operations team who is trying to stay on top of new tools. Vish’s mantra is that tools are not problem-solvers on their own; people and processes are the real drivers of solutions.
She’s a big proponent of understanding the role each tool plays within the organization. It's crucial to ask, "What is this tool doing?" If a tool isn't effectively serving a business purpose or hasn't been adopted well, it might be time to retire it. Simplification is key before automation. An overly complex or constantly changing process isn't a good candidate for automation.
Vish points out a common misconception: the belief that automating everything is the ultimate solution. In reality, automating a clunky or inefficient process can exacerbate issues rather than resolve them. The focus should be on simplifying processes first. Only after streamlining should organizations consider tools that enhance efficiency.
In practice, this means critically assessing each tool's contribution to the business. If a tool no longer serves its purpose or complicates processes, it's time to reconsider its place in the stack. Automation should follow simplification, ensuring that processes are as straightforward as possible before adding layers of technology.
Key takeaway: Simplification should precede automation. Marketers must critically evaluate their tools and processes, focusing on streamlining before leveraging automation. This approach prevents the creation of a cumbersome, Frankenstein-like martech stack—a tech monster stitched together from mismatched parts, always on the brink of chaos.
Empowering Campaign Ops with Self-Serve ModelsSetting up self-service models for campaigns is like to an all-you-can-eat buffet, where the food is already prepared, and you simply pick and choose what you want. In the realm of campaign operations, enabling self-service means providing users with the right tools and training, allowing them to be effective without the need for constant support.
One such tool, Knak, plays a pivotal role in this self-service approach for Databricks. Vish explains that Knak allows users to create emails independently without needing to delve into their automation platform. This system keeps users out of the intricate details of their MAP, reducing the burden on the marketing operations team while still enabling efficient email creation. By using Knak, the process is streamlined: users work within Knak, sync their work to their MAP, perform quality assurance, and then execute their campaigns. This seamless integration not only simplifies operations but also enhances efficiency.
Vish highlights the potential pitfalls of a full self-service model, where multiple users could potentially create chaos within their MAP. Instead, she advocates for a balanced approach, where specific components of the campaign process are made self-service. This method provides a win-win situation for both the operations team and the front-end users. The key is finding tools that allow for this partial self-service model, thereby maintaining control while empowering users.
Knak was introduced to replace a previous tool that failed to meet expectations. Vish was part of the decision-making process, although the team had several champions for Knak and a supportive leader confident in their ability to select the right vendor. This collective decision-making and confidence in the tool have led to a successful implementation, demonstrating the importance of team involvement and leadership support in adopting new technologies.
Key takeaway: Empowering users with the right self-service tools like Knak can streamline campaign operations and reduce the burden on the marketing team. A balanced approach to self-service can prevent chaos while maximizing efficiency.
Why Martech Shouldn't Cater Exclusively to EngineersWhen asked if martech is really geared towards engineers, Vish provided a nuanced perspective. She finds the notion that martech should cater exclusively to engineers rather unsettling. For Vish, her expertise lies in mastering popular systems like Marketo and HubSpot, not engineering. She raises a compelling point about the value of specialized martech knowledge, emphasizing that the real worth of a martech professional is their ability to understand and implement what marketers need, not merely to build systems from scratch...
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What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Carmen Simon, Chief Science Officer at Corporate Visions and Brain Science Instructor at Stanford CS.
Summary: Carmen takes us on an adventure exploring the wonders of brain science and how to sustain attention through contrast. We cover embodied cognition, deviating from expected patterns and avoiding the sea of sameness in AI content. We also take a detour into the speculative future of neuroscience and making data impactful through context.
About Carmen
Carmen has spent her career in multimedia design, writing books, creating and selling companies, and more recently conducting brain science research. She wrote ‘Impossible to Ignore’ – A groundbreaking approach to creating memorable messages that are easy to process, hard to forgetShe started (and still is) at Stanford Continuing Studies teaching several brain science coursesAnd today she’s Chief Science Officer at Corporate Visions where she runs neuroscience research to help businesses increase their persuasive powerShe also recently published another book called Made You Look – a full-color image packed guide on developing persuasive content
Embodied Cognition in MarketingCarmen highlights the rising trend of embodied cognition in neuroscience. This concept suggests that our brain’s attention, memory formation, and decision-making are influenced by the interaction between the brain, body, and environment. It's not just mental processes but physical engagement that shapes our cognitive functions.
She offers practical advice for marketers: involve your audience physically. For example, during a sales presentation or team meeting, encourage note-taking. This simple act engages multiple parts of the body, enhancing memory and focus. In Carmen’s studies, participants who took notes during sessions retained information better than those who just listened.
The key is to move beyond passive engagement. Traditional methods often required participants to stay still, but advancements in neuroscience now allow for physical involvement without compromising data accuracy. So, telling your audience to write things down can make a significant difference in how well they remember and engage with your content.
This becomes more challenging in remote settings like Zoom. The temptation to type notes digitally is strong, leading to potential distractions. Carmen’s research shows that while digital note-takers wrote more, those who handwrote their notes retained and synthesized information better. Handwriting forces individuals to summarize and critically engage with the content, enhancing the quality of their notes and memory retention.
Carmen’s insights suggest that integrating physical activities into your marketing strategies can create a more immersive and memorable experience for your audience. This approach not only boosts engagement but also helps in building stronger connections and better information retention.
Key takeaway: Encourage physical involvement in your marketing efforts. Simple acts like note-taking can enhance engagement and retention, leveraging the principles of embodied cognition for more effective and memorable interactions.
Enhancing Virtual Engagement with Body CuesCarmen discusses an intriguing neuroscience study comparing brain activity when showing products through slides versus using a whiteboard. She emphasizes that using a whiteboard engages people more effectively. The physical act of drawing grabs attention and creates a dynamic visual experience. When the audience is encouraged to draw along, this engagement deepens even further.
Encouraging participants to draw along creates a shared physical activity, reinforcing memory retention. This technique leverages embodied cognition, where physical movement aids cognitive processes. Carmen’s study showed superior recall effects for those who engaged in drawing versus those who only watched slides. After 48 hours, participants who drew remembered more, highlighting the power of active involvement.
In a virtual setting, applying these principles requires creativity and discipline. For instance, you can ask participants to take control of the mouse during a demo or encourage them to use a digital whiteboard. Despite the challenges of remote interactions, these physical cues remain crucial for memory retention. Carmen’s research indicates that handwriting notes leads to better retention than typing, emphasizing the need to integrate physical activities in digital environments.
Carmen urges marketers to rescue the practice of whiteboarding, even in virtual settings. The visual and physical engagement it provides can significantly enhance memory and decision-making. By reintroducing these techniques, marketers can create lasting impressions and foster better audience connections.
Key takeaway: Integrate physical activities like whiteboarding in virtual settings to enhance engagement and memory retention. Encouraging your audience to draw along or take notes by hand can lead to more effective and memorable interactions.
Sustaining Attention Through ContrastCarmen dispels the myth of shrinking attention spans, emphasizing that humans are capable of sustained focus if the stimulus is engaging enough. She notes that from a biological and evolutionary perspective, our ability to concentrate hasn't diminished. The key is to make the content interesting and relevant. As an example, think about how many hours people can spend binge-watching TV shows when they're captivated.
Carmen challenges marketers to think about how to capture and hold attention. The competition for focus is fierce, and at any moment, people can easily switch to something else. To stand out, marketers need to make their offerings compelling and distinct. This involves creating engaging experiences that resonate with the audience on a deeper level.
One effective technique Carmen mentions is using contrast to create a noticeable difference between your content and that of others. The brain needs at least a 30% difference to perceive something as distinct. For marketers, this means clearly differentiating their solutions from the competition. It's not enough to claim that your product is better; the contrast must be perceptible and significant.
She highlights the importance of making your marketing content unique and memorable. In a crowded field, ensuring that your message stands out is crucial. This can be achieved by presenting information in a way that is markedly different from others, creating a strong and lasting impression.
Key takeaway: Create engaging and distinct content to capture and maintain attention. Use contrast effectively to differentiate your offerings, ensuring they stand out in a crowded market. This approach helps in making your marketing efforts more impactful and memorable.
Deviate From Expected Patterns and Create Memorable ImpactCarmen highlights a significant distinction between human and AI-generated content: the power of human touch. She emphasizes that for the brain to perceive distinctiveness, it must first recognize patterns. This means that not every aspect of your marketing needs to be unique. Instead, marketers should identify areas of sameness and then have the courage to deviate from those patterns to create a memorable impact.
One compelling example Carmen shares involves Krispy Kreme's daring marketing approach. They ran an ad with the headline, "Donuts are bad for you," a stark contrast to their usual “Donuts are life” messaging but also the typical health-centric marketing messages. This distinctiveness, paired with a c...
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What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Michael Rumiantsau, Co-Founder and CEO at Narrative BI.
Summary: This episode delves into the future of Business Intelligence, highlighting AI's role in democratizing data for marketers, automating insights with LLMs, and the importance of anomaly detection. Michael’s on a mission to make data insights accessible and useful for everyone, not just experts, by leveraging AI to provide tailored, easy-to-understand insights that boost decision-making. The episode also discusses how proprietary data gives companies a competitive edge in the AI market by refining models and creating tailored solutions, while well-structured data sources enhance natural language query tools. Anomaly detection is crucial for quickly identifying issues and uncovering new opportunities, with tools like Narrative BI automating alerts for unusual patterns, reducing the need for constant monitoring, and enabling more strategic decisions. Michael explains how Narrative BI, an augmented analytics platform, not only presents data but also provides context, explains trends, and suggests actionable steps, helping marketers focus on significant changes and improve performance.
About Michael
Michael started his career as an electronics engineer and then a backend software engineer where he dived into web dev, db management and API integrationsHe later took on the challenge of being CTO at an IT startup called Flatlogic based in BelarusHe then moved to San Francisco and founded a web and mobile dev consultancy which he ran alongside co-founding a natural language search startup called FriendlyData with a mission of democratizing access to data He went through 500 Startups, a VC seed fund acceleration programFriendlyData was acquired by ServiceNow in less than 3 years and Michael went on to join the company in a central product role to help develop their Natural Query Language AI toolHe’s also an investor at founders.ai, a startup platform for disruptive SaaS productsHis latest entrepreneurial endeavor is Narrative BI, a generative analytics platform that helps growth teams turn raw data into actionable narratives
Deciding When to Commit Fully to Your StartupStarting a business varies greatly depending on personal circumstances. Michael explains that while it might be easier for a young, single entrepreneur to take the plunge, it's a different story for someone with a family. Despite these differences, one thing is clear: at some point, you must go all in. Without full commitment, building something substantial is unlikely.
Michael highlights the need to have "skin in the game." This means demonstrating serious commitment, which can convince others to support you. Investors, for example, are more likely to back someone who has shown they are fully invested. For Michael, this commitment meant leaving a secure, high-paying job and investing his own money into his venture, Narrative BI.
Michael’s story shows the kind of dedication required. He left behind a seven-figure salary to pursue his startup. This kind of personal risk can be a powerful motivator and a strong signal to potential investors and team members. Making the transition from a stable job to a startup isn’t just a career move; it's a significant life decision that requires careful thought and total commitment.
Key takeaway: Aspiring founders need to move from part-time dreamers to full-time entrepreneurs. Taking this leap is crucial for success. Without it, the foundation of your startup may remain weak. It’s about believing in your vision enough to put everything on the line.
Encouraging Entrepreneurial Spirit in EmployeesMichael isn’t on his first entrepreneurial venture. He believes expecting startup employees to match a founder's dedication is unrealistic. Founders often work around the clock due to their significant equity stakes, but employees with smaller shares shouldn't be pressured to do the same.
Michael values his employees' time and boundaries. He doesn't track how many hours they work, focusing instead on their contributions. This approach creates a healthier work environment, where employees feel appreciated for their results, not just their hours.
He also encourages side hustles. For Michael, these ventures aren't distractions; they're sources of valuable experience that can benefit the company. His small team of eight includes individuals with diverse entrepreneurial backgrounds, with many already engaged in other income-generating activities. Michael sees this diversity as an advantage, bringing fresh ideas and perspectives to the company. This is a refreshing perspective coming from a founder and not shared by everyone. Shopify CEO for example is well known for discouraging side hustles and expects unshared attention from his team.
Michael takes pride in his employees' entrepreneurial efforts. If someone leaves to start their own company, he sees it as a success and supports them fully. By fostering an entrepreneurial spirit, he believes his team becomes more innovative and motivated.
Key takeaway: Supporting employees' side hustles and respecting their work-life balance can lead to a more innovative and motivated team. Encouraging entrepreneurial efforts within the team benefits both the company and the individuals, fostering a culture of mutual growth.
Future of Business IntelligenceBI is here to stay. Michael points out that despite its $30 billion market size and growing influence, BI tools are still primarily designed for data specialists. In even the most advanced tech companies, adoption rates hover around 20-25%, leaving a vast majority of knowledge workers without direct access to valuable data insights.
Michael sees a significant opportunity in democratizing BI. He believes every knowledge worker should access data insights, regardless of their technical background. This can be achieved through automated or AI-generated insights, making data more accessible to those who make critical business decisions but lack deep data expertise.
Discussing dashboards, Michael notes their static nature as a limitation. Traditional dashboards rely on predefined metrics and queries, which can miss the nuances of a constantly evolving business environment. The static approach often results in overlooked insights that could be pivotal.
Michael envisions a future where BI tools are dynamic, AI-powered, and user-friendly. This would allow real-time insights tailored to specific roles and individuals, enhancing decision-making processes across all organizational levels. By enabling a broader audience to harness the power of data, the potential impact of BI could be far greater than ever imagined.
Key takeaway: The future of BI lies in making data insights accessible and actionable for all employees, not just data experts. Embracing AI-powered, dynamic tools can help businesses stay ahead by providing real-time, personalized insights, fostering a culture of informed decision-making.
AI's Role in Democratizing Data for Knowledge WorkersMichael acknowledges that while BI tools are a boon for data enthusiasts, their complexity often hinders wider adoption among knowledge workers. Even with advanced natural language query tools, users need to understand database structures, table names, and relationships. This level of data literacy is uncommon among marketers and executives, creating a significant barrier.
AI offers a promising solution to this challenge by proactively generating insights. Instead of waiting for users to ask specific questions, AI can analyze data trends and patterns to provide pers...
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What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Michele Nieberding, Director of Product Marketing at MetaRouter.
Summary: Michele takes us on a broad journey across job hopping, learning technical martech products, preparing for the cookie apocalypse and diving deep into the world of server side data processions and tag management. Her transition from sales to product marketing sparked new growth, blending her enthusiasm for learning technical martech products with practical strategies to improve sales outcomes. She emphasizes the importance of ethical marketing practices, like enhancing first-party data and focusing on consent management, crucial for building consumer trust. Michele also explores the benefits of server-side data processing, such as using systems like MetaRouter for real-time data handling, which improves site performance, data security, and compliance. This technical shift supports her broader view on the integration of marketing with data science, stressing the need for solid data management to navigate the complexities of modern marketing and data privacy laws effectively.
About Michele
Michele started her career in sales at Cvent, a meetings and events management software provider She later had a short stint as a marketing consultant at Fishbowl a restaurant platform And then joined a CRM company called Merkle as a Digital Marketing Manager where she wore a variety of marketing hatsThis made her boomerang back to Cvent, but this time as a Product Marketing Manager where she would spend another 2 years with the companyShe later took on the role of Senior PMM at Qualtrics, an online customer experience management platformThis led her to an exciting role leading Solutions Marketing at Iterable, where she was eventually promoted to Director of Product MarketingMichele is also an Executive Mentor at Cornell UniversityToday she’s Director of Product Marketing at MetaRouter, a Customer Data Infrastructure startup
Why Job Hopping Can Be a Green FlagWhen asked about the recent commentary from a CEO criticizing frequent job changes and claiming that you need to stay at a company at least 4 years to achieve anything worthwhile. Michele offered a compelling counterpoint that challenges old school views on career progression. Her journey in the tech industry illustrates the value of embracing various roles across different companies, especially in wild sectors like martech. Michele believes that the innevitably rapid advancements within tech demand adaptability and a willingness to tackle new challenges, which often means moving between jobs.
Michele argued that the notion of needing several years to make a significant impact in a company might indicate deeper issues with the hiring or role alignment process. In her experience, impactful contributions don't necessarily require long tenures. She shared an anecdote from her last position where she was promoted twice within just 12 months, underscoring her ability to drive meaningful change swiftly. Her success stories reflect her high performance and dedication to progress every day she's at work.
This perspective brings into question the disparity in the traditional view of loyalty, highlighting that while businesses often tout long tenures as signs of allegiance and even liken their teams to families, they frequently fail to uphold their end during challenging times, opting instead to cut numerous lower-level positions rather than making reductions at the top.
Michele highlighted that nowadays the real value lies in how much an individual can accelerate growth and bring about change, rather than how long they remain in a position. This approach benefits the companies that embrace such high-performing individuals.
Her stance suggests that companies should rethink their hiring strategies and the attributes they value in employees. The focus should shift towards flexibility, quick adaptation, and the ability to deliver results efficiently—qualities that are crucial in a sector as fluid as technology.
Key takeaway: Companies need humans that can adapt quickly and make significant impacts in relatively short periods, not half a decade. Michele’s experience shows that job mobility can be a sign of a high-performing individual capable of driving innovation and growth who’s looking out for themselves and owning their career paths. Companies should value flexibility and quick adaptability as much as, if not more than, long-term tenure.
Making the Leap From Sales to Product MarketingMichele's career shift from sales to product marketing at Cvent is a perfect example of how adaptable skills can propel your career forward. Starting in sales, Michele thrived by meeting challenges head-on and solving customers' problems effectively. Her success wasn't unnoticed; she was a top sales rep, deeply involved in every aspect of the products she sold. However, Michele knew she wanted more from her career. Unable to transfer from sales to marketing internally, her ambition to explore beyond sales led her to an agency role where she broadened her marketing expertise.
Despite enjoying the creative rush at the agency and wearing all of the hats, Michele felt something was missing. She could suggest marketing strategies but rarely saw how they played out, missing the direct impact of her work. This gap led her back to Cvent when a product marketing role opened up. It was a new territory, but she knew the product inside out from her sales days, which gave her a unique edge.
Stepping into product marketing, Michele fell in love with the strategic and creative elements of the role. She was right back at solving problems, but this time she was crafting the narrative and directly influencing the product's market journey. It was different from sales but used many of the same skills in new ways.
Today, Michele can't see herself doing anything else. Her story isn't just about a job change; it's about finding your niche where you can use your talents to the fullest. She took her in-depth product knowledge from sales and seamlessly integrated it with the marketing skills she honed along the way, proving that the right move at the right time can redefine your career.
Key takeaway: Michele's switch from sales to product marketing shows how valuable it is to apply your skills in new contexts. For marketers looking to keep their careers vibrant and impactful, consider how your current skills can open new doors within your field. It’s not just about climbing the ladder; sometimes, it’s about stepping onto a completely different one.
What Do Sales and Product Marketing Have in Common?It's not always intuitive, but one fundamental commonality between sales and product marketing is the requirement to deeply understand your product. Michele’s strategy for mastering new martech tools showcases just how critical this understanding is, not only for personal growth but also for making significant contributions to her team and the broader company objectives.
When Michele joins a new company, she immediately seeks to connect with colleagues from sales, customer success, and technical teams such as solution architects. These relationships are crucial as they provide a wealth of insights into the product's real-world applications, an invaluable resource for anyone in product marketing. Michele’s early days in any role are spent actively engaging: participating in calls, attending demos, and using the tools herself as much as possible. This hands-on experience allows her to view the product through the eyes of a user, which is essential for crafting messages that resonate with potential customers...
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What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Angela Cirrone, Senior Director, Marketing Operations at Optimizely.
Summary: Angela brings a fresh perspective to marketing operations, a key theme throughout the conversation is curiosity and how it helps boost your confidence and be a key lego block to a successful career. What makes her a unique leader is her experience being part of over a dozen acquisitions which came with over a hundred platform migrations and integrations. She’s developed a framework for platform migrations and a knack for evaluating software and building a stack with martech minimization in mind. We also navigated the convergence of martech and analytics in MOPs and pondered whether MOPs should report into GTM?
About Angela
Angela started her career as a dental assistant before moving to academic advisory and then trying out dental salesShe moved over to marketing – playing social media and community roles for various companiesEventually she found her way into Marketing Ops at Skill-soft where she learned Marketo and got her certificationShe later freelanced at CS2She then joined a proposal automation software company that would later get acquired by Upland Software, a portfolio of 25+ cloud apps, where she would eventually get promoted to Director of Marketing OperationsShe later took on the role of Senior Director of Marketing Ops and Demand Gen at Sauce Labs, a continuous test and error solution where she transformed the Ops function for enhanced efficiency and alignment with sales and GTMToday she’s Senior Director of Marketing Operations at Optimizely, an enterprise digital experience platform
Boosting Confidence by Embracing CuriosityAngela reflects on her initial days at Optimizely, surrounded by experts in marketing operations. She didn't start out knowing all the answers. Instead, she focused on moving challenges forward, a method she credits for easing her entry into a field filled with experienced professionals. Angela quickly realized the power of not knowing everything but having the skills to find out.
She champions the idea of empowerment through curiosity within her team. This approach shifts the emphasis from having instant solutions to developing the ability to explore and tackle problems efficiently. Angela believes that when a marketer faces a new issue, the goal shouldn't be to solve it immediately but to start unraveling it bit by bit.
Angela suggests that anyone can build confidence by being inquisitive and resourceful. This means enhancing one’s skills in using tools like AI and Google, and tapping into a network of knowledgeable peers. This skillset turns daunting challenges into a series of smaller, more manageable tasks.
She openly shares her moments of doubt, reassuring us that even seasoned professionals feel uncertain at times. What matters is how they handle these moments—by seeking solutions and learning from the process.
Key takeaway: Angela's journey teaches us that true confidence in marketing operations comes from cultivating curiosity and resourcefulness. Marketers can future-proof their careers by learning to decompose complex issues and steadily work through them, which not only builds individual confidence but also enriches team dynamics.
The Challenges and Opportunities of Numerous Migrations and IntegrationsWhen Angela joined Upland Software, she found herself right in the middle of a tidal wave of acquisitions—14 in total during her time there. Each of these mergers, including one with her former company Kubity, thrust her into a role that tested her skills and confidence. Her task was to merge different technologies and operational cultures into Upland’s existing framework, and in some cases she had just six months to make it happen. This period marked a significant leap in her career, filled with both challenges and substantial learning.
Angela's experience at Upland was filled with managing logistics but it also presented an opportunity to shape the company’s future. With no formal marketing ops team in place and the function previously outsourced to an agency, Angela saw a gap. She proposed and established a dedicated team, shifting the company's approach from external reliance to internal strength. This move was about building a foundation that was robust and could handle the complexities of future growth.
Each acquisition brought different practices and technologies to the table. Angela emphasized the importance of understanding the reasons behind each company’s methods. She saw this as more than just integrating new tools into Upland’s tech stack but a chance to think critically about what improvements these new elements could bring to the company.
Reflecting on her time at Upland, Angela highlights the formation of the marketing ops team as a key achievement. Her approach shows how tackling immediate challenges with a strategic mindset can lead to lasting advancements within a company.
Key takeaway: Dealing with acquisitions in martech requires strategic foresight and the courage to drive change. By viewing each migration and integration project as a stepping stone for improvement, marketers can capitalize on the opportunities these changes bring.
Architecting a Framework for Platform MigrationsWe asked Angela to unpack how her first few integration projects looked liked compared to her 13th and 14th acquisitions. She started by sharing details on the evolution of the process for merging data from new acquisitions into existing systems. Initially, the process was somewhat indiscriminate, with an emphasis on transferring as much data as possible, regardless of its immediate value or relevance.
Over time, Angela and her team developed a more nuanced strategy, likening it to "packing a suitcase, not the whole house." This approach meant being selective about which data and tech assets to integrate, focusing on quality and relevance rather than quantity. They established clear criteria for what to include, such as activity levels and the strategic value of certain accounts or campaigns. This method allowed them to streamline the integration process and avoid cluttering their system with unnecessary data.
Naturally, when two companies merge, two tech stacks also need to merge. A key part of refining their approach involved making tough decisions about existing contracts and technologies. Angela encountered scenarios where newly acquired companies had recently entered into multi-year contracts for technologies that were not part of her company’s preferred tech stack. Deciding whether to honor these contracts, transition to preferred technologies immediately, or find a middle ground was a complex challenge that required strategic thinking and careful negotiation.
By the time of the later acquisitions, Angela’s strategy had matured significantly. The team had moved from a lenient approach to a more standardized method, focusing on aligning new acquisitions closely with operational standards. This shift not only improved the efficiency of the integrations but also ensured that new additions could seamlessly contribute to the company’s overall strategy.
Key takeaway: By focusing on what truly adds value and aligning new assets with established standards, marketers can enhance the efficiency and effectiveness of their tech stacks and data strategies. This strategic integration ensures smoother transitions during acquisitions and can significantly boost a company’s capabilities in the competitive martech landscape.
How to Pick Between Similar Martech Solutions?Angela often faced a common scenario: deciding whether ...
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What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Andrea Lechner-Becker, mostly retired CMO and Novelist.
Summary: Andrea takes us on a wild ride filled with nuggets of wisdom, a few f-bombs and tons of laughs as she unpacks her deep understanding of marketing. Together, we explore how storytelling breathes life into content and why true enthusiasm for a product can transform marketing strategies. We navigate the crucial skills of recognizing patterns and forming strategic partnerships with finance departments. Andrea also sheds light on how flawed attribution methods can lead marketers to do dumb things, why investing in branding from the outset is table stakes and why marketers have what it takes to be outstanding martech sales reps.
About Andrea
Andrea started her career in martech as a database marketing coordinator at the Phoenix Suns NBA basketball team She later joined a 2-year old marketing automation consultancy called LeadMD. She would quickly get promoted to Principal, VP - Marketing Service and later CMO when the company was acquired by another agency and rebranded as Shift ParadigmThrough the consultancy, Andrea’s helped huge brands like Adobe, Atlassian, Drift, TealiumShe also ran marketing at Toolio before leaving her successful career as a marketing exec and going back to her entrepreneurial routes creating uncommonly good contentShe’s the Co-Host of OWNED podcast by AudiencePlusShe wrote the Practical Guide to B2B Event SponsorshipShe’s also written an intensely emotional and powerful fiction story called Sixty Days Left
The Impact of Fiction on Real-World IssuesAndrea’s insight into the world of writing and fiction is both refreshing and straightforward. She starts by debunking the myth of the "aspiring" writer—declaring that anyone who writes is indeed a writer. This simple yet powerful affirmation encourages daily writing as a practice, not just a hobby, and stresses that writing is accessible to everyone, regardless of their goals.
The creation of her novel, Willow, stems from her fascination with America’s Death with Dignity laws, a subject she finds both philosophically intriguing and politically complex. These laws allow terminally ill patients to end their lives under medical supervision, a right given more commonly to animals than to humans. Andrea's story sheds light on this contentious issue by weaving it into the fabric of her characters’ lives, making it more approachable and understandable.
Through Willow, Andrea not only educates her readers about a delicate topic but also challenges them to rethink their positions. She shares feedback from readers who have shifted from staunch opposition to a more supportive stance—or at least to a reconsideration of their views—after connecting with her characters' journeys.
Key takeaway: Fiction isn't just for entertainment; it can be a formidable ally in influencing public opinion and sparking debate on critical social issues. For marketers, Andrea's approach underscores the effectiveness of storytelling as a means to connect with audiences on a deeper level. By embracing narratives that reflect real-world challenges, marketers can create campaigns that resonate more profoundly with their audience, encouraging both engagement and reflection.
How to Create More Compelling Content and MessagingAndrea emphasizes the importance of going back to the basics in marketing, focusing on genuine human connections rather than overused jargon and AI-powered embellishments. She critiques the current state of B2B marketing, noting that many companies sound alike because they fail to make an effort to stand out. Drawing from Maslow's hierarchy of needs, Andrea highlights how understanding basic human motivations can enhance marketing strategies. She believes that businesses often overlook the importance of connecting on a personal level with customers, colleagues, and bosses.
Her experiences at networking events reveal a lack of genuine engagement, prompting her to use specific conversational tools to foster meaningful interactions. Andrea uses a set of questions designed to deepen connections, which she adapts from psychologist Art Aaron's research. These questions help her navigate social interactions more effectively, especially as someone who identifies as introverted.
Andrea argues that the lackluster approach to B2B marketing stems from a fundamental misunderstanding of marketing by those at the helm, particularly in large enterprises. She points out that many CEOs, often with backgrounds in finance rather than marketing, fail to grasp the essence of effective communication and its impact on sales and customer engagement. This gap in understanding leads to marketing strategies that do not resonate on a human level.
She stresses the importance of conveying the 'benefit of the benefit' in marketing messages, using B2C strategies as a successful example. Instead of selling a product, companies should focus on selling the lifestyle or emotional benefits that the product enables. This approach is often neglected in B2B settings, where the focus might be too narrow or technical.
Key takeaway: To stand out in the saturated B2B market, companies must prioritize genuine human connections and understand the underlying human needs of their audience. Marketers should strive to communicate not just the functional benefits of their products but also the emotional peace of mind they provide. By doing so, they can create more compelling, memorable marketing messages that resonate deeply with their customers, enhancing both engagement and loyalty.
The Magic of Marketing is Genuine Product EnthusiasmAndrea vividly recalls her journey through the marketing world, from her educational roots to the exhilarating rush of launching campaigns and seeing the immediate impact of her work. With a twinkle in her eye, she talks about the magic of marketing—connecting people to products they'll hopefully love as much as she does. Even though she's stepped back from the front lines, her heart remains tied to the craft.
After leaving a high-paced role, Andrea found joy in the simple pleasures of life, like spending time with her dog and tending to her orange trees. Yet, she still dedicates part of her time to sparking career growth in others through social media, teaching job seekers how to think of themselves as products ripe for the job market. Her methods are reminiscent of building a SaaS product—meticulous, thoughtful, and always aiming for scalability.
Andrea's story is peppered with anecdotes of her early days in a dog art gallery, where she first realized the power of marketing. She could see the light in people’s eyes as they found joy in the art pieces she presented. This foundational experience shaped her belief that marketing, at its core, is about sharing passion. Whether she was working in a gallery or a tech firm, the essence of her approach didn’t change.
Reflecting on her career, Andrea points out the profound impact passionate marketing has had on her colleagues' lives—transforming careers, enabling dreams, and changing life trajectories. It’s clear she sees marketing not just as a job but as a vital part of living a fulfilled life, a channel through which one can make a significant difference in both personal and professional realms.
Key takeaway: Embrace the essence of marketing by sharing your genuine enthusiasm for the products or services you represent. This authentic connection not only enhances your marketing effectiveness but also enriches your professional life and touches those around you. Andrea’s story is a powerful reminder that at the heart of successful mark...
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What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Emily Kramer, Co-Founder at MKT1.
Summary: Emily explored the convergence of marketing, investment, and startup growth, delivering actionable insights for marketers, founders, and investors. When picking future unicorns, she attributed timing and luck but stressed the importance of selecting startups that value marketing and whose products meet real needs in growing markets. Emily advocated for rigor in selecting martech tools that align with business goals, enhancing efficiency without compromising content quality. She also highlighted the need for "pie-shaped" marketers in startups, professionals who combine deep expertise in at least 2 areas like growth and product marketing, but also with a broad foundation. Additionally, Emily underscored the value of leveraging marketing skills in angel investing and internal advocacy, enhancing both startup viability and internal team alignment.
About Emily
Emily started her career in Media planning at Ad agencies in SanFran and also had a stint in growing a programmatic ad platformShe went back to school to complete an MBA at Harvard and joined Salesforce as a Product Marketing MBA intern before later joining a startup called Ticketfly as an early marketing team member Emily then made the mega move to Asana as Head of Marketing as the 35th employee where she built and scaled the marketing team from 1 to 25 in less than 4 yearsShe moved on to an email app startup called Astro Technologies as VP of Marketing where she led the company to Series A funding and won the esteemed ProductHunt Golden Kitty award for mobile app of the year in 2017 - this startup looked a lot like the AI productivity apps popping up today, a few years too early.Emily then joined Carta as VP of Marketing where she grew the team from 2 to 30 and sat on the exec team and reported directly to the CEO. While there she co-authored a ‘gender gap in equity’ study which was featured in over 50 publicationsEmily then kickstarted her entrepreneurial path and started dabbling in Angel investing. She took First Round’s Angel Track which helped turn her investing hobby into a new career where she’s now invested in over 50 companies as an angel investorShe joined Empower Work as a Board Member, an NPO providing text support for vulnerable workers facing challenging work situationsIn October 2020, Emily made the plunge and launched (market-1) MKT1 with her co-founder Kathleen, initially as an advisory business, then as a newsletter and community aimed at helping founders and marketers scale their teams and later as a Capital fund helping early-stage B2B startups.
The Secret to Picking Future Unicorn StartupsEmily shared her journey through the startup world, sprinkled with good timing and fortunate circumstances. She entered business school just after the 2008 financial crash, a tumultuous time that surprisingly set her up for success in the entrepreneurial realm. By the time she re-entered the workforce, the economy was bouncing back, providing a fertile ground for new ventures. Her departure from startups came just before the COVID-19 pandemic, sparing her from the subsequent turmoil many companies faced.
Her method for evaluating potential startups has evolved but is based on a simple principle: the importance of a solid product that the target audience would endorse, even if they wouldn't use it themselves. Emily stresses the need for a product to be compelling to those it aims to serve, a criterion often overlooked by non-marketers. A great market and a capable team are also on her checklist, but a unique selling point for Emily is the company's marketing strategy. She looks for what she now calls "marketing advantages," such as a unique story, SEO potential, or network effects that could give a company an edge.
Emily's first startup job was driven by her love for music, working at Ticketfly, where she was immersed in the scene she adored. This role merged her personal interests with professional opportunities, which was fulfilling but also a learning curve. It led her to pivot towards a more B2B focus, taking her to Asana. There, she saw early traction and a team capable of winning on multiple fronts, confirming her belief in the startup’s potential.
She advises marketers to think like investors when considering startup roles. It’s not just about a paycheck; it’s about believing in the product and the team. This mindset shift is crucial, especially as one’s career progresses and the stakes get higher. Understanding the company's vision and its alignment with marketing is essential—not just for the company's success, but for personal career growth as well.
Key takeaway: For marketers eyeing startup opportunities, it's crucial to evaluate the company with a discerning eye: Is the product something people genuinely need and love? Is the market ripe for growth? Does the company understand and value marketing? These factors are not just important for the company's success but are critical for marketers to ensure they invest their time wisely and contribute to a venture that grows and values their skills.
Advancing Gender Equity in Venture CapitalAt MKT1, Emily has taken a proactive approach to shaping the landscape of venture capital through a lens of equity and inclusion. She emphasizes the importance of diversifying investment not only as a moral imperative but as a strategic advantage. MKT1 actively sources deals from a variety of channels, prioritizing companies led by women, people of color, and underrepresented minorities. Emily believes these groups often outperform the average founders, bringing unique perspectives and solutions to the table.
Their commitment to diversity is evident in the composition of their fund. For a considerable period, the gender distribution among those holding equity has been evenly split, a rare achievement in the venture capital world. This balance also extends to the fund's investors, many of whom are marketers, showcasing a diverse group of individuals backing their vision.
MKT1 doesn't hold a formal mission statement on diversity; instead, they integrate these principles into the very fabric of their investment strategy. They aim to mirror the diversity of the market itself, ensuring the products they invest in are reflective of the consumers they serve. This intrinsic approach to diversity is part of what Emily describes as their 'DNA'—a natural element of their operation.
Emily also collaborates with Empower Work, a support line for workers facing challenges in their jobs. This initiative primarily aids lower-income individuals, though it's accessible to anyone needing guidance. Recognizing her own privileged position to be able to address injustices legally, Emily is committed to extending support to those who lack the means to challenge their adversities.
Key takeaway: Effective advocacy for diversity in the workplace extends beyond mere numbers. By embedding a commitment to equity into every facet of business operations—from investment strategies to community support—leaders can create profound, lasting change. Emily's work illustrates how maintaining a balance in investment portfolios and supporting initiatives like Empower Work not only champions diversity but also enhances the overall business landscape.
Fundamental Principles For Picking Martech ToolsEmily brings a unique dual perspective as both an investor and a marketer to the challenge of navigating the crowded martech landscape. When it comes to implementing new technologies, the allure of the latest tools can often lead to "shiny object syndrome," where the excitement of poten...
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What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Anthony Lamot 🐧, CEO and Co-Founder at DESelect.
Summary: From early stage founder advice and keeping up with the galaxy of martech tools to email fatigue and AI’s convergence with neuroscience, this episode journeys through deep marketing space. Anthony gives us practical advice for tracking martech trends but also keeping the timeless fundamentals in mind. We take a pit stop in email marketing land discussing true personalization, engagement tactics without overwhelming users, and if we’re really ready to give the wheel to AI (spoiler, we’re not). We also explored innovative uses of ChatGPT, the speculative future of AI and neuroscience and how to thoughtfully integrate AI into your product.
About Anthony
Anthony started his career as a CRM consultant at Deloitte Belgium where he got his first taste of SFDCHe moved over to Waeg (wahg) as a business & tech consultant where he continued advising companies on CRM but also started expanding to martechHe later joined 4C as a Lead Consultant for Marketing AutomationHe took a turn in-house on a 1 year contract as Marketing Automation Lead at Toyota Europe where he rolled out SFMCDuring his consulting years, Anthony teamed up with his friend Jonathan where they met at Deloitte and they each started three startups from scratch, of which the first one was togetherIn 2019, Anthony and his co-founder went all in on their 4th startup; DESelect Today, over 1000 organizations use the marketing optimization platform, including T-Mobile, Volvo and Cornell University and many more
Taking the Entrepreneurial PlungeAnthony was asked about what steps should be taken by those looking to start their own business, and his advice was nothing short of bold: drop everything else and dive in. He likens this to a dramatic moment from history—imagine being at the siege of Troy where the commander torches your only ride home. It's a vivid picture of commitment; there's no going back, so you might as well give this fight everything you've got. This total commitment, Anthony argues, is crucial because it keeps you sharp and wholly focused on your venture.
He openly admits that feeling 100% sure of yourself all the time isn't realistic. Doubts creep in, and that's normal. But, Anthony believes in a kind of all-or-nothing approach. It's either you make it, or you don't, and while this sounds stark, it simplifies many decisions and helps keep your spirits up. According to him, being an entrepreneur is about pushing past your comfort zone and constantly dealing with the discomfort of uncertainty.
Confidence does more than just keep you moving forward; it's also a beacon for others. When you believe deeply in what you're doing, it shows, and that energy is magnetic. It attracts the right kind of people to your team—those who are not just skilled but who also share your passion and drive.
Key takeaway: Dive deep into your entrepreneurial journey with no backups to distract you. This level of commitment sharpens focus and fosters a necessary resilience that not only propels you forward but also draws in a team as dedicated as you are. This combined momentum is often what turns startup dreams into reality.
Validating Business Ideas Before CodingAnthony shares a refreshing take on starting a new venture, underscoring the significance of validating an idea before plunging into development. He suggests selling the concept before writing a single line of code, a strategy that contrasts sharply with the more traditional path of product development. This approach involves interacting directly with potential customers to gauge interest and gather feedback, which is crucial for shaping the product in its earliest stages.
Drawing from his own entrepreneurial journey with a previous venture, Anthony recalls the pivotal moment he identified a real problem to solve. This insight didn't come from brainstorming in isolation but from his observations while consulting. Noticing marketers' frustrations with certain technical tasks provided the initial spark for his business idea. By focusing on a concrete problem experienced by many, he set a solid foundation for his startup.
The true test of his concept came when he leveraged his existing network within the Salesforce ecosystem. By discussing the potential solution with former clients and gauging their interest, Anthony not only reaffirmed the demand but also built initial customer relationships. This method proved powerful when a client's request for a price quote pushed his team towards actual product development—a clear sign that the market saw value in their idea.
Key takeaway: Start by selling your idea before you build it. This strategy not only tests the viability of your concept beyond immediate acquaintances but also engages potential customers early in the process. By involving them in the development journey, you can ensure that your product addresses real needs, enhancing your chances of success. This proactive engagement can be a crucial strategy for marketers looking to validate and adapt their innovations effectively.
How to Keep an Eye on All the Changes in Martech?Anthony kicks things off with a half joking nod to the Humans of Martech podcast, suggesting that a regular listen might be just what’s needed to keep up with the fast-paced world of marketing technology. His real answer though is: get your hands dirty.
Forget spending your weekends buried in whitepapers or certifications—though they have their place, Anthony argues that nothing beats real-world experience with the tools themselves. He points out that a few minutes spent tinkering with new software can teach you more than hours spent in seminars or reading product marketing materials.
He’s quick to criticize the heavy reliance on analyst reports and industry experts, which he feels can obscure more than they illuminate. Anthony's experiences have shown him that many of these resources are tangled up in marketing strategies or even pay-to-play arrangements, which don’t always give the clearest picture of a tool’s value.
Anthony also believes that companies should carve out a portion of their resources for pure experimentation. He recommends about 10%—not just as a token gesture but as a genuine investment in future capabilities. Sure, some ideas won’t work out, but those that do could be game-changers, providing significant advantages down the road.
Finally, Anthony underlines the importance of community involvement. Whether it’s joining user groups, attending tech meetups, or just going out for dinner with peers, the connections you make and the insights you gain can dramatically steer your career and enhance your understanding of the field.
Key takeaway: Dive into the practical side of martech and engage directly with the community. This hands-on experience and network involvement are invaluable for staying updated and effectively navigating the complexities of the marketing technology galaxy. These efforts will enrich your personal growth and improve your org's innovative capacity.
The Timeless Essentials of Martech ExpertiseWhen diving into what makes someone exceptional in the martech field, Anthony gets right to the point: it’s all about knowing the fundamentals of marketing deeply and personally. While it might seem like a given, Anthony shares from his own experience how crucial this understanding is. Coming from a tech and CRM-heavy background, he admits that fully grasping what marketers need didn’t come immediately. It’s not just about the tools; it’s about knowing the people using them—their ...
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What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Maja Voje, Founder of Growth Labs and the Author of GTM Strategist.
Summary: This episode with Maja is a playbook for startup marketers, growth advisors, early stage founders and anyone curious about go-to-market strategies. We untangle the most popular questions about growing early stage startups, from picking the right early channels and leveraging qualitative insights, to uncovering the limitations of willingness to pay and locking down the moving target of product market fit. We also cover how to overcome biases, leverage intuition and simplify all things go-to-market.
About Maja
Maja started her career bouncing from government consulting, journalist intern and Program Manager rolesShe then kickstarted her entrepreneurial journey and launched Growth Lab, an early version of her consultancy where she moonlighted as a consultantShe worked at Google on Speech Ops, where she led a team of 9 on a globally coordinated technology development projectShe later worked for various startups across London and Brussels; leading marketing, comms and growth strategy She then worked remotely for a web3 blockchain startup based in Hong Kong and took on the role of CMO where she raised over 20M in growth capital and attracted 16,000 early adopters She’s a mentor at the Swiss Entrepreneurship ProgramShe’s the author of GTM Strategist, a comprehensive guide on launching a new product and gaining PMFToday she’s doubled down on her consultancy Growth Lab where she’s worked with brands like Heineken, Bayer, Miro and ProductLed. She’s also taught Growth principles to more than 50,000 students around the world including employees from Tesla, Apple, Deloitte, Adidas…
Maja, what a wild and amazing journey, thanks so much for your time today.
What CMOs and Growth Advisors of the Future Should be Doing TodayMaja shares straightforward advice for those setting their sights on a Chief Marketing Officer or growth advisor role: stick with it. Jumping from one project to another without fully engaging in the entire lifecycle—from planning to execution to scaling—might seem dynamic, but it lacks the depth that comes from true commitment. She believes that the real insight into marketing leadership springs from not just launching a product but also from nurturing it and watching it grow to a stage where it can be replicated efficiently and effectively.
During the interview, Maja described what she calls a "speed learning period." This intense phase of hard work, though daunting, is invaluable. Here, you're not just working; you're absorbing through active participation. It's a time filled with late nights, teamwork, and, yes, lots of pizza and energy drinks. It's about making the most out of the resources around you—mentors, colleagues, and the safety net of not yet playing with your own money.
Maja also touched on the psychological barriers like imposter syndrome that can stunt growth. Her advice? Push past those doubts. Success breeds confidence, and with each win, the blueprint for repeating those successes becomes clearer and more intuitive. She advocates for a mix-and-match approach to professional roles: try a bit of mentoring here, some part-time consulting there, and see what suits you best.
She’s passionate about remaining relevant and adaptive in the fast-paced marketing world. For Maja, it’s not just about keeping up; it’s about continuously applying what works on a larger scale and helping more people with those proven strategies. This excitement for her work shines through when she talks about scaling what works and bringing more value to more clients.
Key takeaway: To really prepare for a CMO role, immerse yourself completely in projects and embrace the learning that comes with each phase. Avoid hopping too quickly from one opportunity to the next without reaping the full benefits of your experiences. Stay versatile, stay engaged, and remember, adapting proven strategies on a wider scale can amplify your impact and keep your skills sharp in a competitive field.
Recognizing the Value of Simplicity in GTM StrategiesWhen Maja talks about marketing strategies, she hits home the need for simplicity. It's easy for marketers, especially the seasoned ones, to fall into the trap of making things more complicated than they need to be. Maja explains that the smarter you get, the harder it can be to keep things straightforward. You start seeing more angles, more risks, and more possibilities, and suddenly, you're stuck—nothing moves because you're overthinking every detail. This is what Maja refers to as the "curse of intelligence." You know so much that it actually starts to hold you back.
In her view, one of the biggest hitches in deploying marketing strategies is the sheer overwhelm of options. This often leads to what she describes as "analysis paralysis." You end up doing nothing because you're too caught up in your head, dissecting various possibilities and scenarios. And in a world where speed to market is crucial, being stuck in this loop can be disastrous.
But there's more to it. According to Maja, bigger companies often struggle with decision-making because it feels safer to spread the responsibility around. This might mean bringing in various consultants and team members to weigh in, which can drag out the process even further. It’s like trying to cook a meal with too many chefs in the kitchen—everyone has an opinion, but dinner never gets made.
Maja stresses the importance of creating a culture where it's okay to make mistakes. The best teams, she says, treat failures as stepping stones to better solutions. They use a scientific approach, testing ideas, learning from missteps, and gradually getting wiser. It's about creating a space where people feel secure enough to try new things without fear of retribution if they don’t hit the mark right away.
Key takeaway: Keep your marketing strategies simple. Don’t let knowledge become a barrier to action. Encourage a team environment where trying and failing is just part of the process, because that’s how you find what really works. This not only keeps your team moving forward but also ensures you remain agile and responsive in a competitive marketplace.
GTM for Products that are Good but not GreatMaja delves into the raw experiences of working in startup environments where resources are tight but ambitions run high. She shares that the perfect product is a myth that hinders more than it helps. It's a common trap for many startups—they spend too much time polishing a product instead of getting it into the market to start learning from real customer feedback. Maja emphasizes the importance of launching early and initiating those critical feedback loops that inform successful go-to-market strategies.
In her journey, Maja has seen startups falter not just because their products were imperfect, but often because they weren't communicating effectively with the right market segments. She recounts how targeting can make or break the initial traction of a product. Sometimes, a pivot in the target audience, whether geographic or demographic, can dramatically shift the results. Maja advocates for starting small and embracing activities that might not scale initially but can provide invaluable insights and early adopters.
For example, Maja describes a CRM startup's approach to finding its niche. They simply posted an invite to their beta version in a large Facebook group and quickly gathered their first 100 users. This initial user base helped them understand that their product wasn't suitable for e-commerce but was a hit with solo entre...
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What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Adam Greco, Field CTO / Product Evangelist at Amplitude.
Summary: Adam is a leading voice in digital analytics and he unpacks event-based analytics and how it’s transformed how marketers interact with data. Data tools are complicating the martech landscape with overlapping functionality and confusing terminology so Adam breaks down the nuanced difference between product analytics, customer data infrastructure and ETL. Adam also walks us through how his team combines marketing, product, and experience analytics getting a fuller view that informs smarter, more effective strategies. We also cover the shift to interactive dashboards as well as warehouse native martech and what it means for marketers. Marketers need to work closely with data teams to ensure these new tools are practical without being overwhelmingly complex, allowing them to lead confidently in their industries.
About Adam
Adam is one of the leading voices in digital analyticsHe’s managed marketing and customer success teams at enterprise companies and consulting firmsHe’s been Senior Director of Marketing and Analytics at Salesforce He spent nearly a decade as a Senior Partner at one of the best-known analytics consultancies in Analytics Demystified where he’s advised hundreds of organizations on analytics best practicesHe’s been a Board Advisor at various well-known startups, analytics associations, capital funds and universities He’s authored over 300 blogs and one book related to analyticsHe’s a frequent speaker at big-name analytics conferencesToday he’s Field CTO at Amplitude, where he focuses on providing content, education, and strategic advice on how to build better products
Understanding Event Based AnalyticsAdam unpacks the shift towards event-based analytics, a concept that may seem confusing to those accustomed to traditional digital analytics. He explains that back when the internet was simpler and mostly about websites, tracking was straightforward: look at pageviews and sessions and hope for conversions. But as technology evolved—think smartphones and apps—the old methods became less effective.
Mobile apps changed the game. Interactions on these platforms are brief and frequent, shifting the focus from long sessions to brief, meaningful interactions, each marked as an event. Adam points out that his company, Amplitude, was at the forefront of adopting this approach, realizing that tracking every tap and swipe gave a clearer picture of user engagement than the traditional methods.
As both websites and apps became integral to user experience, the analytics field faced a choice: stick with the old or adapt to the new. The answer was overwhelmingly in favor of event-based analytics. Major players like Google and Adobe redefined sessions as just another event, creating a unified model that could track interactions across platforms, be they digital or physical, like visiting a store or calling customer support.
This evolution means marketers can now see a fuller, more dynamic view of how users engage across different platforms. Understanding that a session is a collection of events, rather than a fixed time slot, offers a richer, more nuanced understanding of user behavior.
Key takeaway: Embracing event-based analytics allows marketers to capture the full spectrum of customer interactions, offering a granular view that is vital for crafting targeted, effective marketing strategies. This approach not only keeps pace with the evolving tech landscape but also provides the insights needed to enhance customer engagement and satisfaction.
Product Analytics vs Customer Data Infrastructure vs ETLAdam explains the evolving landscape of martech tools, focusing on how they intersect and differ, simplifying a topic that can be quite bewildering for even experienced marketers. Initially, the task for marketers was to employ simple tools provided by companies like Google or Adobe, which handled data collection via embedded codes on websites or apps. These tools offered convenience but at the cost of flexibility and depth in data manipulation.
With the advent of more specialized tools, the dynamics changed. Customer Data Infrastructure (CDI) tools like Jitsu, MetaRouter, and Rudderstack focus mainly on collecting first-party data from apps and websites, pushing this information directly into data warehouses. They don’t delve into analytics but excel at gathering clean, structured data.
On the other hand, Extract, Transform, Load (ETL) tools such as Airbyte and Fivetran specialize in integrating data from various third-party tools into a central warehouse. They transform the data during this process to ensure it fits well within the existing structures and schemas of a company’s database, enhancing the data’s utility for comprehensive analysis.
Customer Data Platforms (CDP) like mParticle and Segment represent a more holistic approach, incorporating features of both CDI and ETL. They not only aggregate and organize data but also enrich it, providing a robust platform that supports marketing automation and personalized customer experiences based on the unified data they help curate.
Adam highlights that while CDI, CDP, and ETL tools are vital for data orchestration, they often lack robust analytical capabilities. This is where Product Analytics tools like Amplitude step in. Amplitude starts with some features of CDI but integrates extensive analytics and visualization capabilities, allowing marketers to not only collect and see their data but also to derive meaningful insights and build complex reports directly.
Adam also emphasizes the importance of flexibility in Amplitude’s approach to integrating with the broader martech ecosystem. Despite the overlap with features typically found in CDIs, Amplitude continuously expands its capabilities to better meet the needs of its users. Central to its philosophy is maintaining an open system. Unlike some platforms that might restrict interoperability with competitors' tools, Amplitude encourages its users to integrate as they see fit, whether that means using Amplitude in conjunction with other products or relying on it more heavily for certain functions.
This openness not only provides users with the flexibility to tailor their data strategies precisely but also offers potential cost savings by allowing them to choose the most effective combination of tools for their specific needs. By listening to customer feedback and adapting its offerings, Amplitude aims to provide the most value, ensuring that clients have the best tools at their disposal, no matter the complexity of their data needs.
Key takeaway: Marketers looking to refine their tech stacks should consider how each tool fits into their broader strategy. Integrating platforms like Amplitude that handle multiple functions—from data collection to visualization—can simplify operations and cut costs. This approach not only makes managing marketing technology easier but also ensures that teams can quickly adapt to changes and opportunities in the market, keeping them one step ahead.
Converging marketing, experience and product analyticsWhen Adam penned his thoughts on the convergence of digital marketing, experience, and product analytics back in 2021, the concept faced skepticism. Fast forward to 2024, and the landscape validates his insights, showing a clear trend toward unified analytics platforms. The separation of marketing, product, and design analytics is becoming obsolete as companies recognize the inefficiencies of siloed data approaches.
In his early career at companies like Salesforce,...
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What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Mandy Thompson, CEO and Co-Founder of Digital Reach.
Summary: Mandy shares powerful mindsets and practical frameworks for marketers aiming to future-proof their careers in the complex galaxy of martech mixed up with AI, data privacy, and genuine customer engagement. We cover the art of documentation to avoid feeling like you’re in an Indiana Jones adventure sifting through digital cobwebs from ghosts of marketers past when you dive into a company’s martech setup. We also examined the use of intent data, urging a balanced approach that respects privacy. She highlighted her practical use of virtual whiteboarding to pre-plan automations and using ChatGPT for marketing automation use cases. Most importantly, Mandy shared how blending personal authenticity with professional savvy creates genuine connections, far more valuable than superficial likes on social media.
About Mandy
Mandy started her career plunging into entrepreneurship launching an Advocacy and Consulting firm where she ran Marketing and sales for 3 successful years, growing the team to 25 people and crossing 1M in rev in the first yearShe later sold everything she owned and went out on her own traveling the world as a digital nomad – freelancing as a copywriter and a web developer. She developed and produced an online course that generated 7 figure returnsShe co-founded Digital Reach, a digital agency where she spent 8 years focused on sales and account management, before becoming CEO where she’s spent the last 3.5 years growing the agency 300% YOYShe’s a member of Pavilion and RevGenius, she’s also a Treasurer Board of Directors at the New Mexico Psychedelic Science Society
Finding Your True Self in the WorkspaceMandy shares a piece of her life with us, a story that's as much about the tattoos on her skin as it is about the unseen marks her experiences have left. It's a peek into the life of someone who's part of the LGBTQIA+ community, a proud woman in a world that still wrestles with equality, and a professional who's dared to blur the lines between her personal and professional selves. Her story isn't just hers alone; it echoes the journeys of many who feel like they're juggling multiple identities, trying to find a spot where they fit in without having to compromise on who they truly are.
She talks about starting with what's comfortable and pushing the boundaries from there. It's like dipping your toes into the ocean to gauge the temperature before plunging in. Mandy found that the more she shared, the more she discovered people who were like her or, at the very least, people who were open to embracing her totality without judgment. Her tale is a reminder that often, our fears of rejection are far greater than the reality of it.
The pandemic, for all its chaos, played a surprising role in Mandy's life. It pushed the professional world into a more authentic space, where business suits met bedroom backgrounds in Zoom calls. For Mandy, it was a time when the digital nomad lifestyle she had always embraced suddenly became the norm. The shift wasn't just about work cultures becoming more accepting of remote work; it was about the world getting a glimpse into the personal lives of its workforce, making everyone a bit more human.
Mandy's discussion about the intersecting circles of our personal and professional lives—how we must find that sweet spot where we can be true to ourselves while still rocking our roles at work—is insightful. She doesn't shy away from dressing up for an important client meeting, not as a betrayal to her identity, but as a nod to the professional context. It's about knowing when and how to showcase different facets of ourselves, a dance between being authentically us and professionally adaptable.
Key takeaway: Embracing your full self at work is less about a grand revelation and more about small, confident steps towards being true to who you are. For marketers, this means understanding that your personal story and how you choose to share it can become your strength, allowing you to connect on a more genuine level with your audience, colleagues, and industry at large. It's about finding your voice in a way that resonates with both who you are and who you aspire to be professionally.
Genuine Connections Over Likes on SocialMandy's got a point that'll make you rethink your whole LinkedIn strategy. It's easy to fall into the trap of thinking you need to blend in to get ahead. You know the feeling, scrolling through your feed and it's like everyone's marching to the beat of the same drum. But Mandy's here to tell us that's not where it's at. The real magic happens when you break from the pack and share what makes you, well, you. It's not about racking up likes or followers. It's about striking a chord with the people who get you.
She's pretty clear on one thing: chasing popularity isn't the goal. Imagine reaching your career milestones, not because you played it safe, but because you were real with your network. Think about it. Do you really need thousands of likes to say you've made it? Nah. If your post lights up the day for just a handful of people, those are your people. They're the ones who dig what you're saying and that's worth its weight in gold.
Let's be real, though. It can sting a bit when you see others with their crazy-high follower counts and endless stream of comments. Mandy feels that too. Putting yourself out there and then hearing crickets? Tough. But she's adamant that finding your voice and your tribe beats playing it safe any day. It's not about shouting into the void but whispering to those who are actually listening.
Mandy reminds us that the digital world is vast, but the corners where we find our kindred spirits are precious. It's less about impressing the crowd and more about connecting with the few who truly appreciate your uniqueness.
Key takeaway: Don't lose yourself in the quest for likes and approval on LinkedIn. Authenticity is your superpower. For marketers, remember, it's the genuine connections that count, not the size of your audience. Focus on those who resonate with your true self, and you'll find not only your tribe but also your path to true professional fulfillment.
Treat Your Marketing Team like Your Agency Within the CompanyMandy has this straightforward way of talking about managing marketing teams that feels like a breath of fresh air. She takes us behind the scenes of running an agency, where it’s all about juggling different accounts and making sure everyone’s rowing in the same direction. It’s this dance of making sure what you promise on one hand, you can actually deliver on the other. And it all boils down to something she calls mutual accountability - a two-way street where the team and leaders keep each other in check.
The trick is to always have a clear picture of what’s doable. Mandy points out how essential it is to match up the team's workload with what clients are asking for. It's pretty much like saying, "Let's not bite off more than we can chew." If someone’s schedule is already packed, promising a client that their request can be done next week isn't just unrealistic; it's unfair to the team. It's about finding that sweet spot where the team's capacity meets client expectations without anyone having to burn the midnight oil unnecessarily.
Mandy's a big fan of using smart tools to keep everything on track. She talks about something called teamwork, but it’s clear the real teamwork happens when these tools give everyone a clear view of the workload, deadlines, and what's at stake financially. It's not just about checking tasks off a list; it's about making informed decis...
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