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Sara Sheehan discusses the importance of conquering mindset to overcome fear and define success in today’s episode. She splits the conversation into three key parts, touching on How to Stay Driven and Motivated, Overcoming or Minimizing Fear, and Defining Success as a Leader. In each part, Sara examines why mindset is such an important component of success and how to master each step by asking important questions and paying attention to goals.
Sara shares the inspiration she drew from a continuing education course by James Garrett, called “Brain By Design” and points out that sometimes teaching can continue to reveal new insights as we revisit it over and over. How do we master dread? We confront it to get more comfortable with the thing we dread. How do we take risks? We start with the courage to put ourselves out there. Mindset determines the direction of our energy and action and Sara offers guidance on how to change and develop our mindset in new ways.
This quote from Carol Dweck sums up the episode nicely: “A growth mindset is the belief that all abilities are trainable. Nothing is fixed. That we can change anything from intelligence to creativity to athleticism through persistent and adaptive effort.” The words we need to keep in mind are mindset, consistency, commitment, courage, and success. Practice what we fear and consider success as something that grows and evolves in ways Sara highlights in this episode.
This episode is step 2 from my free ebook on my website: 7 Steps to Thrive in the New World
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Contact Sara Sheehan | Sara Sheehan Consulting:
SaraWSheehan.comSara Sheehan on LinkedInMeet with SaraTranscript:
Sara Sheehan: [00:00:02] Welcome to Transformational Thinkers with Sara Sheehan. Today, I would like to discuss the very important topic of conquering your mindset and how to overcome fear and define success. I'd like to start with a quote that I love that really speaks to my heart by Carol Dweck. A growth mindset is the belief that all abilities are trainable. Nothing is fixed. That we can change anything from intelligence to creativity to athleticism through persistent and adaptive effort.
Sara Sheehan: [00:00:40] Today, I will split the conversation up in several parts, and I'll dive in first with, 'How to Stay Driven and Motivated'. During my career in business, I've worked with some of the largest consulting firms and Fortune 100 clients, mentoring and developing senior leaders and designing organizations and business strategies, managing change, optimizing talent and leadership development, and solving complex human performance problems. As you may imagine, I have often had to overcome the fear of standing on the edge of the unknown waters and define success for myself within the space. How did I do this? By being very consistent in the actions that I take on a weekly basis. Planning out my week, my calendar, and my time so that I have time to focus on marketing. I have time that's set aside to be creative, and I have time set aside to reach out to potential and new clients, as well as existing relationships to test out my programs in market research conversations. Because I became consistent and thoughtful in my activity, fear hasn't been an overwhelming factor for me in a long while. This is possible for you, too. Invest in setting aside time to do mindset work. This is absolutely critical for anyone who is a business owner, leader, or in a scenario where your role will bring you in contact with managing and mediating between different people, temperaments and challenges. It helps you show up better in every meeting and every conversation, and it serves as your special energizer. Once you're in a conversation and you see that it's going well and it's successful, it'll motivate you for the next thing on your calendar. It's a situation where it feeds off of itself.
Sara Sheehan: [00:02:38] Part two, 'Overcome or Minimize Fear'. Your mindset is critical. A strong mindset keeps you in your best energy. Additionally, planning your day around your mindset can be a very useful approach. Let's explore an example. When I plan my day, I look at scheduling difficult meetings during the time of day when I have the best energy. It helps me stay mindful about setting 5 to 7 priorities for each day, and working the list until it's done. Overcoming fear is really about mindset, consistency, and focus. Those three things make a huge difference. It's also important to step into and practice what you fear so that you can move from fear to growth to mastery.
Sara Sheehan: [00:03:27] 'How Brain Science Helps in Business'. Overcoming fear takes practice. According to a significant number of research studies, this is something that is hard to get your head around. I learned a lot about overcoming fear in a recent continuing education course I took by James Garrett, 'Brain by Design'. Garrett has put together one of the best brain science courses I have ever taken. I can't recommend his course enough. The reading list associated with the course is the best I have ever seen. He has curated the most important research in psychology, sociology, and medicine and truly stands at the intersection of brain science and business. His 'Brain by Design' course is built on four modules: Habits by Design, Productivity by Design, Fearless by Design, and Happiness by Design. His course impacted me so much that I'm still referring back to the content in it, and I am still listening to modules again because I'm picking up new things. That's an absolutely glowing review if you know me.
Sara Sheehan: [00:04:36] 'Get Comfortable With What You Dread'. In 'Fearless by Design', James talks a lot about how you have to actually put yourself in the position you dread to actually get more comfortable with it. He demonstrated this by putting his hand in a large plastic bin near a live scorpion, practicing surfing while at the beach, and by showing his young daughter getting comfortable with things she suddenly developed a fear reaction to after being so very open to nature. Garrett talks about how people get into a worry and anxiety loop, and how draining it is when they don't deal with what they fear. Worries and anxieties, when left to fester, can become insurmountable and truly distinct conditions. So how do you get out of this situation? You have to practice. What scares you? It's the practicing part that gets so many people. 'Really? I have to do what I dread?'. If you want to move through fear to comfort, yes, you need to practice what you fear. The intriguing part is that this is the route to creating good habits and mastering a skill.
Sara Sheehan: [00:05:45] 'How I Used Courage to Achieve Mastery'. Over the last two years, I've really put myself out there from a marketing perspective through activity and social media, writing, producing videos, conducting podcast interviews and more. When I started, everything took a lot more work, attention to detail and energy. Now that I have spent so much time working on these skills, I look forward to it, it makes me smile and it takes a lot less energy. Recently, one of my friends told me that it takes a lot of courage to put yourself out there. Upon reflection, I thought his choice of words by using courage was very well stated. Courage. The conversation left me with a smile, knowing that I've moved through difficult times to mastery. Do you have the courage to overcome what you fear?
Sara Sheehan: [00:06:47] Part three, 'Define Success as a Leader'. Success is not a destination, it's a very dynamic thing. Look at success as something that grows and evolves with you during your lifetime. Most leaders want to make a difference for their teams. They want to make a difference for their clients. They want to build tremendous relationships with their clients that bear fruit for years to come. How would you define success as a leader? What types of accomplishments would you like to achieve? What kinds of roles would you like to serve in? What kinds of special projects would you like to lead? What skills or areas of specialization would you like to accrue? What defining characteristics would you include in your definition of success? Spend some time focusing on defining success. After you define success as a leader, you can set goals that will help you achieve your vision for success. Set at least three goals that will propel you forward to your vision of success. It can be extremely helpful to set goals with an executive coach where you can make sure they are pithy, succinct, and inspiring. After you set three goals, start to build out a plan to achieve them with actual strategies and actions. The critical part of a good plan is that it has to be tangible and measurable, as well as based on where you currently are in life. The bottom line here is to include strategies and actions that you could do this month in the role that you currently hold, without lots of obstacles. Choose things that are accessible to you and you'll be more likely not only to follow through, but achieve your goals. It's also important to stay healthy and vital as you navigate this process. So yes, success is dynamic and however you choose to define it, it should light the way to living your best life and doing your genius work.
Sara Sheehan: [00:08:56] Key takeaways from conquering your mindset. First, consistency. Be very consistent in the actions you take on a weekly basis. Plan out your week, your calendar, and your time in a mindful way. Set aside time to be creative, time to reach out to potential clients and time to nurture your existing relationships. Second, mindset. Your mindset is critical. A strong mindset keeps you in your best energy. Overcoming fear is about mindset, consistency, and focus. Those three things make a huge difference. Third, courage. In his course, 'Brain by Design', James Garrett talks about putting yourself in the position you dread to get more comfortable with it. Practice what you fear. This is the route to creating good habits and mastering a skill. Finally, success. Success is not a destination, it is very dynamic. Look at success as something that grows and evolves during your lifetime. It's important to frame success in the light of your genius work. It's also critical to set goals and create an action plan to achieve them. Thank you so much for listening to today's episode of Transformational Thinkers with Sara Sheehan. Subscribe today and never miss an episode.
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Sara Sheehan’s guest in this episode is Jeremy Fischbach, CEO of Happy, a mental health company providing frictionless, non-clinical support for people in demanding environments. Happy supports large organizations like hospitals and the Department of Defense and operates by eliminating barriers to accessing emotional support. Jeremy drew on his background in psychology and law, as well as his personal difficulties accessing mental health support, to develop Happy. He tells Sara exactly how his innovative approach prioritizes accessibility and impact.
Jeremy’s personal struggles and dissatisfaction with the time-consuming and inaccessible nature of mental health support led him to envision a system where emotional support was readily available and proactively offered. He focused on creating a frictionless system with a platform where users find emotional support without facing complicated processes. Sara explores how Happy’s model addresses a growing need among people who feel disconnected from support.
Sara and Jeremy discuss Happy’s high adoption rates and clinical-level effectiveness, the real-time emotional support offered, and how it enhances employee engagement. Despite struggles with disrupting traditional and digital mental health systems, Jeremy highlights the importance of continuing to challenge old models and assumptions. Happy’s success highlights the need for compassionate, accessible, and innovative mental health solutions that make user experience the priority.
About Jeremy Fischbach:
Jeremy Fischbach is the Founder of Happy, whose mission is to create a more supportive culture by expanding access to the essential ingredient of mental health and by teaching and inspiring people to better emotionally support each other. Prior to Happy, Jeremy was the CEO of Myne, which built interactive educational and sports analytics software that leveraged users’ psychographic data to improve performance. Jeremy has a psychology degree from Princeton and a J.D. from NYU.
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Contact Sara Sheehan | Sara Sheehan Consulting:
SaraWSheehan.comSara Sheehan on LinkedInMeet with SaraJeremy Fischbach | Happy
Website: FrictionlessMentalHealth.comJeremy Fischbach on LinkedInEmail Jeremy__
Transcript
Sara Sheehan: [00:00:02] Hi there, I'm Sara Sheehan and welcome to my podcast, Transformational Thinkers with Sara Sheehan. Today I'm joined by Jeremy Fischbach, CEO of Happy, a frictionless mental health company that is completely disrupting how large organizations care for their employee's mental health. Many of the large organizations that are working with Happy have employees that are in harm's way or in very demanding professions like military organizations such as the Air Force or the Department of Defense, large hospitals with health care workers including nurses and doctors, just to name a few. By the way, their clients are reaping huge returns on investment. Jeremy is the founder and CEO of Happy, whose mission is to create a more supportive culture by expanding access to the essential ingredient of mental health, and by teaching and inspiring people to better emotionally support each other. Prior to Happy, Jeremy was a CEO of Myne, which built interactive educational and sports analytics software that leveraged users psychographic data to improve performance. Jeremy has a psychology degree from Princeton and a JD from NYU.
Jeremy Fischbach: [00:01:39] I'm honored to be here, Sara. Thank you for making time on a Saturday.
Sara Sheehan: [00:01:44] Absolutely. Jeremy, I find you to be a truly fascinating person. Can you tell me a little bit about your backstory and how it led you to where you are?
Jeremy Fischbach: [00:01:57] I'm not sure that I agree with your characterization, but I think I've taken the same type of circuitous path that a lot of people have to wherever they are in their lives today. I think for these purposes, my story begins with a deep curiosity about people which preceded going to college. I just happened to always be on the outside of any population I was a part of looking in, and I think it gave me a chance to better understand who I was, who other people were. When I got to Princeton, I majored in psychology and neuroscience and was actually going to be a psychiatrist. I was pre-med and then had a near-death experience right before graduation that sent me on a whole different course. I was a composer in New York City for many years. Then for reasons no different than a lot of lawyers, just went to law school because I didn't know what else to do. Briefly practiced, hated it, and have been in psych tech and now mental health for the last decade, including the last 4 or 5 years with Happy.
Sara Sheehan: [00:03:25] That is a truly fascinating path that you've taken. I'd love to double click on some of the personal trials and tribulations that you've had in another conversation. Tell me a little bit about the story that led you to create your business.
Jeremy Fischbach: [00:03:47] It's a story that I think a lot of people can relate to. It's really a story about a failure to get mental health support at a critical time in life. I was coming out of a divorce, I needed support, I knew there were-and really, when I say support, I mean mental health support, emotional support, interpersonal support as opposed to other types of support sometimes people need coming out of a divorce, like financial resources. I needed interpersonal support, emotional support, etc. and I knew there were two places to get it. My primary support system, i.e. family and friends, where we get 99% of the mental health support we ever get in life, and secondary support systems like therapy. Happy, this company, the movement around it, was born out of the failure of both of these systems in rapid succession. Sara, you and I have talked about this sequence of events, but my primary support system failed first. Unfortunately, I'm sure a lot of people can resonate with that experience. That looked like me feeling really down, lonely, worried and nine out of ten calls I made to family and friends went right to voicemail. If they actually picked up the phone they had, typically, nothing more supportive to say than 'I told you not to marry that woman'. My situation got worse. I started chain smoking kind of out of nowhere, was having not suicidal thoughts, but cousins of them. Like, who cares if I die of lung cancer? Which was one of the darker thoughts I had, and I really meant that. I didn't actually know who would care.
Jeremy Fischbach: [00:05:49] At some point I said, okay, this has gotten serious enough that I should try therapy, and that failed for the reason that I would call friction. Namely, it was too hard to get it. I had to be struggling, obviously, I had to be aware of it, which most people are not. They're not even aware they're struggling because we don't bleed when we're anxious. The signs that I were struggling were conspicuous, like waking up for the first time in my life and needing a cigarette. I needed to reach a breaking point, which I did. Then I had to research my benefits, send out two dozen emails to therapists. A month and a half later, one of them responded, maybe a few eventually responded. Most responded to say, no, not taking anyone, not in your network. Something I didn't really want to hear or, you have to pay for this yourself. Eventually, I got to somebody who was taking new patients. Their first opening was a month later, and I had to go through opt ins and registrations and probably two and a half to three months after I began that process, I was sitting in a therapist's office and she was good.
Jeremy Fischbach: [00:07:13] I think mostly she gave me emotional support. She just listened to me and gave me a little bit of compassion. But mostly, all she said that I remember was just, 'I'm sorry, Mr. Fischbach, your time's up'. I just thought, is this what I waited three, four months for? Because this is really just emotional support. It feels like something I should have been able to get much sooner. It led me to the sequence of questions that really lays the groundwork for Happy. The first question was, is there a single person on earth who thinks that what I just went through is their dream version of mental health? I wasn't being facetious, I really was trying to figure out, is this system, this gauntlet I've been navigating in place because people want it that way? Or is it just 'exist'? I really was trying to figure out, is there a single human being on the planet who, when you ask them, wave a wand and create your mental health solution from scratch, would have named anything that I had just experienced, particularly the experience with therapy. I thought there may literally not be one person who would say that the most common experience that we have today in America for mental health is their dream version of it.
Jeremy Fischbach: [00:08:45] I thought at the time that was quite interesting, given that there were so many other areas of life where I think the solutions on the market really match up with people's dream version of it. I don't think most people can imagine an easier version of getting rides places than Uber. I don't think most people can imagine a better system for delivering goods to our house than Amazon. As much as we sometimes complain about these services, they've really created frictionless experiences that are, at this stage I think, hard to beat. The next question I asked was, what is the dream version of mental health? I couldn't answer for anybody else, but for myself, the answer was simple. I want my friends and family to check in on me more, and when I had to acknowledge that was unlikely to happen, the next question I asked myself was, what would be the next best option? Again, for me, the answer was simple. It was somebody 'like' my friends and family checking in on me, and I was imagining my phone ringing and a call that I had absolutely nothing to do to initiate. On the other end was a really caring person just calling to hear my story, to hang on every word, to offer me comfort and really dive into all the pain I was experiencing at the time, but also delve into my dreams. Not the dreams I have when I'm sleeping, but the ones I have when I'm awake and to help me achieve them.
Jeremy Fischbach: [00:10:32] It was pretty clear to me at the time that that was never going to happen. It was a little heartbreaking to realize that, or to believe that. Then I started to wonder why that would never happen. Because for something to be impossible, it has to be novel. I couldn't think of anything novel about that, Sara. Just somebody, a caring person calling me. Why is that so novel? Kindness, not new. Emotional support, thankfully rare, but not new. The only thing I could think of was that it was frictionless. That was the single element of that experience that was novel, was that I was getting that support without having to take a single step. Then I started to wonder, is making something frictionless enough? Is that such a big deal that I'd want to leave everything else I was doing at the time and start a company around it.
Jeremy Fischbach: [00:11:48] Then back to the connections earlier to companies like Uber and Amazon. I realized, Uber, you can say the same thing. Taxis are not at all innovative, all they did was make taxis frictionless. Amazon doesn't sell innovative goods, all they did was make buying frictionless. I thought, isn't making mental health frictionless at least as important as making e-commerce and taxis and all the other things in our life that have become frictionless. And yet, as I looked at the market, I just didn't see any frictionless mental health solutions. The most frictionless services I could find still required people, like the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline or Warm Lines, now, still require people to be struggling and be aware of it and reach a breaking point and research what resources are there and typically do the hardest thing of all, which is to actually reach out for support. So I took this idea, just to wrap this up, to the Princeton psych department. It was a large group of people orbiting around it that were interested in this same question. Long story short, we ended up having all agreed that there was something there to this idea of frictionless mental health. We ended up piloting early versions of this. The most significant thing we did was survey hundreds and then thousands of people and asked them the same questions that I was asking myself and we were asking ourselves.
Jeremy Fischbach: [00:13:25] Namely, if we could wave a wand, what mental health solution would we create? Across the board, not unanimously but overwhelmingly, we heard people say, Sara, I want my friends and family to check in on me, they're not going to. In the absence of that, I would like somebody 'like' my friends and family checking in on me. They were describing the same experience that I wanted. A proactive, non-clinical type of support which makes complete sense, that people would want support that came to them, as opposed to support that required them to take a lot of time and energy to access it. They wanted something non-clinical, which also makes sense when people are struggling. I've yet to hear a person struggling, and I've encountered thousands, who say when they're really down, I would just love to spend a few weeks waiting in line to see a cognitive behavioral therapist. Most people I know who are struggling say, I just wish I had someone to talk to, or, that somebody would reach out. We went ahead not seeing any proactive, non-clinical solutions on the market and reach the conclusion that, at a time when our mental health crisis is spiraling out of control, it could be the case that the one solution people want most is not just underrepresented, but nowhere to be found in the country. That's the lead up to Happy.
Sara Sheehan: [00:15:04] That is a fascinating story. I had no idea that it had so many personal implications for you based on your own experience as well. I do find the disruptive nature of the service that you're offering the most compelling part of it. The fact that it is non-clinical, the fact that it is frictionless, I find it absolutely-it is truly going to change the way companies interact with mental health opportunities and create a culture of support for employees. I know that you have had tremendous experience with customers having great return on investment, and I'd love to hear a little bit about some of the tremendous results that you are experiencing.
Jeremy Fischbach: [00:16:11] I'll briefly say that Happy, just so the ROI makes sense, is really a few pieces. The main piece is frictionless mental health, and that is a nationwide network of non-clinical mental health providers, among if not the highest skilled mental health support network of it's kind, that's non-clinical. These are nurses, social workers, people with extensive backgrounds in healthcare. Then we obviously have a proactive delivery model that allows us to support people who could be members of a Medicaid or Medicare plan, or more to the point of the workforce, it could be workplace employees of any organization. We happen to be focused on large health systems, some of the largest in the country, the Department of Defense, Air Force, Army, and critically for anybody to get support in any of these environments, they don't have to be struggling. They don't have to be aware of that. If they are, they don't have to reach a breaking point, they don't have to research their benefits, they don't have to connect their struggle to a benefit. No registration, no downloading an app, no opting in, no making an appointment, no waiting for appointment. They literally have to do nothing. The Pentagon, with whom we're collaborating, refers to this as zero step support.
Jeremy Fischbach: [00:17:41] When you deliver support like that to people, Sara, amazing things happen. Number one, leading up to ROI, you get very high adoption rates and Happy has among the highest, if not the highest, adoption rates of any mental health service in the country. Not because we've been innovating in the actual support we're providing. The support we're providing, emotional support, has been around since the beginning of humanity. This is just undivided attention, compassion, encouragement. It's because of, obviously, all the innovation and removing obstacles. In a Medicaid/Medicare population, our adoption rate is 20% to 30%. In a workplace, it's 30 to 40%, which is much higher than an EAP, where you typically have adoption rates of 3%, 4% or 5%. Then we see clinical level impact, which means the same reduction in symptoms of isolation, stress, burnout, anxiety, depression that you'd see with a therapist. Sometimes Happy is doing this more rapidly than you'd see in therapy, because we don't have the same obsolete scheduling system that most therapists have. We're actually-when we encounter people measuring how much support they need to stabilize, 4.2 hours let's say, and we're giving people all that support right away.
Jeremy Fischbach: [00:19:17] We generate more workforce intelligence than any employee listening or employee survey company in the country. Huge amounts of anonymous, aggregated data that help employers fight turnover in real time. Help health plans address their members needs in real time. Then the ROI comes from all that. With a health plan, Happy's achieving, in this case, the largest Medicaid plan in the country, almost an 8 to 1 ROI based on reduced health care spend. Just utilization of Happy reduces utilization of the emergency department, inpatient psych, any self-insured employer would benefit from a service like this for that reason. Then with our employer partners, large hospitals for example, we're showing mostly high ROI based on lowered turnover, significantly lowered with one of the largest hospitals in the country. We're reducing turnover by close to 40%. Most of that's just the support we provide, but some of it's all the real time analytics and our ability to help our partners quickly synthesize and respond to those data. In short, Sara, I would say in the workplace side, what's leading to such high ROI with some of our partners over 25 to 1, given how affordable the service is.
Sara Sheehan: [00:20:49] That's remarkable.
Jeremy Fischbach: [00:20:51] It's mostly just helping our employers compress the time frame of their approach to turnover. I think there's a lot of companies that view retention, engagement, turnover as something tied to employee engagement surveys, which may happen every six months or every year, sometimes even less frequently. With our partners, turnover is something we're helping to fight on a daily basis, on a 24 hour time frame. Which is the same time frame that employees are experiencing when they are deciding whether to leave or stay.
Sara Sheehan: [00:21:27] Absolutely. Those numbers are remarkable to me because they're double digits, they express a tremendous uptake or utilization of your service. Employees are responding, they're leaning into it, which I know many companies, generally speaking, have a 1% to 4% uptake of EAP services. Comparatively, that is just remarkable to me.
Jeremy Fischbach: [00:22:06] Keep in mind, Sara, a lot of EAPs are designed not to be used, or are specifically not being improved upon because of a lack of utilization. The less an EAP is used, the more profit the company providing the EAP realizes. We had the largest health plan in the country. We're talking to a director of their behavioral health commercial line, when we were talking to them about friction, they said, you're misunderstanding friction as a bug rather than a feature. If employees actually navigate this gauntlet and access support, that comes out of our bottom line. It just has to be noted that, the systems that we have in place that oftentimes are very hard to use, and it could be traditional models, but it could be digital apps that force people to download an app and register and do self-guided surveys. They all have the effect of reducing the number of employees who get support. I'll just observe that if you understand the vendors, how they make money, you'd be surprised to understand, perhaps, that the more people who end up making it through and getting support, the worse off they are, as in the vendor.
Sara Sheehan: [00:23:37] I'd love to hear some, Jeremy, about what your biggest challenges have been in starting your business and how you've overcome them.
Jeremy Fischbach: [00:23:47] The biggest challenges, I'll put them in two categories, Sara. One is, it's hard to start a company. It could be a lemonade stand or Happy. Any company, as you know, you're an entrepreneur, is hard to get off the ground. One of the hardest professional things you could do is take something from your brain to the back of a napkin. That's all been covered elsewhere, I don't think it's all that interesting to discuss. If any listener wants to understand how hard it is to start a company, you can type that into Google, and I think it's been well covered. For us, I would say, the more interesting challenge has been-is very specific to mental health, Sara. It's really, mental health, and the mental health paradigm and infrastructure we have, is very unique. It's unique in a particular way, and specifically, there's a lot of sacred cows. People do not like to challenge old ways of thinking, or even new ways of thinking, that are ineffective with mental health for a lot of reasons. One, I think this is one problem that does tie the whole country together. I don't think that there's very many people-I think it's a bipartisan thing to say, that we're experiencing a mental health crisis.
Jeremy Fischbach: [00:25:21] Mental health providers themselves, I know many of them. Some of the most accomplished mental health providers in the country are on Happy's advisory board or service in other ways. They're amazing people. I think that for some of those reasons, and also just because-there's obsolete thinking in a lot of fields. Bad ideas don't go challenged that much, and I think that has been Happy's greatest challenge, is taking on both traditional and digital mental health, which are riddled with, in my view, bad ideas. As an example, Silicon Valley keeps spinning out and funding, this is just one example, new apps that are supposed to be the answer to old school mental health. They are based on very, I would say, suspicious assumptions. Many apps, for example, require users to take a lot of steps to eventually get to a therapist and pride themselves on giving users access to every single possible mental health option under the sun on the assumption that people are snowflakes. If 'Sara' is not the same as as her husband, or me, and today 'Sara' may want peach flavored kombucha, but tomorrow she may want watermelon infused sparkling water. We need to make sure 'Sara' has access to all this.
Jeremy Fischbach: [00:27:07] Happy has a very different position. It's actually been hard to-it's hard to combat the idea I just expressed than it has been to do anything else. Our assumption is that, we are in a drought with respect to mental health. People are literally dying of thirst, and we need to make sure that people have water. For us, the water of mental health is emotional support. Our mission has been, not to maximize options but to maximize adoption. If you just look at two scenarios people face when they're struggling, since most people who are struggling have not downloaded apps, I think our model is self-evidently more likely to lead to somebody getting help. If you, Sara, are struggling right now, think about in which of these scenarios you're more likely to get support. In one scenario, you have to download an app, you have to register, you have to even know that there's an app to download. If you've gotten that far, you need to register, opt in, go through a lot of paperwork, probably do a medical history, self-guided assessments, it may be days before you can actually speak to somebody. Or alternatively, what if a call just came into your phone from one of the most caring people in the country?
Sara Sheehan: [00:28:35] The latter sounds amazing. I do love your comment about, bad ideas aren't challenged enough. We need to set aside time so that we can be more creative and think of new ways to approach old businesses so that we are actually disrupting an industry. Yes, just getting a phone call from a caring person sounds wonderful to me. It sounds like the barrier has completely been dropped from where I need help, to having help.
Jeremy Fischbach: [00:29:27] That's the idea. When we talk to our partners, it's interesting to ask them to imagine how they would react if it were as hard to fulfill a lot of other basic needs as it is to get mental health support. Imagine to get toilet paper, they needed to go through all these steps, and it was days before they could get it. Imagine getting pizza required a lot of steps. Again, nothing's coming for days. Or water. It is preposterous how difficult it is in the 21st century to get mental health support, but it's because of bad ideas. In fact, I'll say the 'baddest' idea of all, the worst trend that still dominates in mental health, Sara, as you and I have talked about, is over-clinicalization of mental health. The idea that the DSM, the ultimate catalog of mental health issues just keeps growing up to the point where, if somebody is feeling lonely after a divorce, they can get diagnosed with a temporary adjustment disorder.
Jeremy Fischbach: [00:30:42] This has real consequences. The reason this is so, is that mental health clinicians are more or less in charge of mental health in America. Just like lawyers have a tendency, if they're just being lawyers, to write laws and coat everything in more rules and regulations, mental health clinicians, if they're just doing their job, have the tendency to keep clinicalizing the human condition, including very common emotional states. The costs of clinicalization are really staggering. Every time we clinicalize an issue, it means that now it requires a clinician to treat it, and that clinician's hundreds of dollars an hour perhaps, and there just aren't enough of them, of course, so now it's going to take weeks to get there. You're going to have to fill out a whole bunch of paperwork, and you wonder why mental health is stigmatized. For anybody having to go through that much effort to get help and pay that much money, of course somebody's going to think, wow, I must be really sick. So yeah, just a note on that.
Sara Sheehan: [00:31:57] It's remarkable that a very simple approach can have such breakthrough impacts. I'd love to shine a light on that, which is why we are talking today, because people need to wake up and understand that it can be a simple answer, it can be easy to access and it can change your life.
Jeremy Fischbach: [00:32:31] I think so, Sara. I would ask you, not to turn the tables around, but I'm sure your listeners would appreciate hearing from you. Have you ever had a struggle in life, without getting into the details of the struggle, where you had friends or family just supporting you? Where it didn't even involve therapy, but just your own support system came to the rescue?
Sara Sheehan: [00:33:01] Sure, and I've had situations where maybe I wish they could have been more available. I completely identify with your story so very much. Life has a way of having many twists and turns, it's not a direct line. There are many ups and downs that people experience in life, and having a service like you're offering, I can see how it would absolutely transform employee's attitudes and desire to deliver at work. Because 'my employer is caring about me'.
Jeremy Fischbach: [00:33:50] I think that's spot on. I think you put it very well, Sara. I would just say, if I had a choice between two employers and one of them-and I really understood mental health inside and out, which most people just don't think about it that much, but if I knew that they were just offering a standard EAP, and really what they were saying is, look, we care about you not enough to offer anything other than some of these wraparound services or an EAP that are going to require you to take dozens of steps and wait weeks to get support. If the choice were between that and an employer who said, I'm going to make sure one of the most caring people in the country is checking in on you every month and giving you unlimited support. That, to your point Sara, does say something different about the employer and if that's their investment in me, makes me want to much more significantly invest in them in my work, etc. So I think you're spot on.
Sara Sheehan: [00:34:56] Absolutely. I'd love to hear, Jeremy, what are you learning now, personally?
Jeremy Fischbach: [00:35:05] I was going to say, do you want a 20 minute treatise on what I'm learning about contracting with the Department of Defense? I think what I'm learning personally, is how important it is-I'll say, we refer to our providers, Sara, as support givers. They are among the most caring people, caring community, I've ever met. They do what we alluded to. They check in on and provide unlimited support to large populations of people every month proactively. I think what I'm learning most through Happy, to be honest, is how important it is for me to be a support giver in my own life, with the people I work with, with the people who I live with, or in my family, etc. As I've shared with a few people, nowadays, when I get into the car, instead of putting on a podcast or listening to music, a lot of times I'll just go through my phone. Not while I'm driving, but at stop signs or stop lights, and check in on the people in my life proactively. An amazing thing has happened. This is people who I work with, family, friends. Which is that, when my friends and family have learned, I guess from me in most cases, just how nice it is to have somebody check in on them.
Jeremy Fischbach: [00:36:44] I'm not trying to share at all times what's going on in my life, I really want to hear what's going on with them, they start doing that to me. What I've learned the most is, that for me, as important as personal development and self-help and this whole craze, that you could put in exercise and all our new fangled ways of thinking about nutrition and meditation. As much as I really appreciate that, the journey that I find myself on most now, is one where the arrow is much more clearly pointing outward toward other people. I find myself getting excited about becoming a better listener, getting excited about learning the nuances of compassion and encouragement. I still haven't met a single person in years who ever came to me and said, I've got to tell you about this new X, Y, or Z, this new podcast I'm listening to, or book I'm reading. It's getting me so excited about just supporting other people more effectively. It's always about something that relates to themselves. So, that's what I've learned most. I think that's not just a way to build better relationships. I think professionally, personally, I truly believe that. It's not just me, there's many people in the country, thankfully, I think that are starting to do this kind of thing, but I think that, to me, is the beginning of a more supportive culture.
Sara Sheehan: [00:38:34] It absolutely is. Clearly you are the best example of paying it forward in your own life, where you are sharing of the support that you might have longed for at a different time in your life. Openly, without judgment, just caring about other people. That is an art that we need more present in our society. People need to care more. People need to be more kind and be fully available and present in the conversations that they do have. Jeremy, what are your big goals and aspirations that you're working on right now?
Jeremy Fischbach: [00:39:39] I guess personally and professionally, I would just say, getting happy, farther off the ground. Creating a more supportive culture is maybe the broader goal. You and I have discussed working on a very long textbook, now, that's all about the set of ideas that surround Happy, and is meant to be a blueprint for creating a more supportive culture. I think when I'm not stressed about the company, or one way that I actually escape from stress, which is inevitable to a startup, is by writing. Or doing writing the way I write, which is walking around the streets of New Orleans extemporaneously, trying to dictate a textbook into existence. That's been a lot of fun, a lot of hard work. I can't believe how many people have written one book, let alone multiple. It's been a lot of fun to articulate all of these ideas that I find myself having more and more about. The importance of creating a more supportive culture and really how, in light of recent events, whoever is in the White House, whoever is in Washington, I really do believe each of us can, should, must do a lot more than we're doing to create a supportive culture. I think it's a beautiful thing that maybe Happy, the book, and just through conversations like this, we can inspire people to do that.
Sara Sheehan: [00:41:20] Absolutely. So when will your book come out? Do you have a target timeline?
Jeremy Fischbach: [00:41:26] 2090. I'm hoping within a couple of years. It's just about done as a draft, so now we're in a extensive editing phase. Some cool features to it, there's going to be a lot of submissions. I'll just say, there's going to be not just my voice, but the voice of the people in this. A lot of the ideas that we're talking about are new, but they've been blowing in the wind for a long time. So yeah, we'll come back on when that book is out, we can talk about it.
Sara Sheehan: [00:42:01] I would love to have a conversation about it. It sounds like you'll have, essentially, a multi-author situation where, maybe there would be articles or a chapter by another person. Is that kind of what you're thinking?
Jeremy Fischbach: [00:42:18] I'm actually thinking that we're going to write the whole book without any contributions first, and then with all the different areas, have so many submissions that we could completely remove our own voice from it, and just have a book by, for, from the people. From just ordinary people to experts and show that, as new and important as these ideas are, again, they've been out there, I think we're just stitching them together in a very novel way that I hope has profound consequences. Because I think I'm seeing those consequences in my own life.
Sara Sheehan: [00:43:00] I am certain that it will. Very certain. So, Jeremy, is there anything else that is percolating in your mind that you'd like to share today?
Jeremy Fischbach: [00:43:17] Mostly, thank you, Sara, for giving me a chance to talk to you about this. I know that you're as passionate about this as I am, and that really has come through in getting to know you. If your listeners want to know more about this, about Happy specifically or our approach, we try to lay it all out, more of an open source model. You can see more at frictionlessmentalhealth.com. I would just say on a personal note, as we go into Thanksgiving, in the holidays it's quite a time for a lot of people, that I would encourage your listeners to, I'm sure many already are doing this, to go in with the simple mission of making every interaction as supportive as possible. When you encounter people, family members, friends, strangers, set a little goal of doing everything you can to support that person, leaving them feeling as supported as possible. It really simplifies life and I think makes it more supportive. That's all I got, Sara.
Sara Sheehan: [00:44:32] It makes everything better when you have a good conversation with someone that really cares. It absolutely makes everything better, there's no question about it. Well Jeremy, I can't thank you enough for your time today. As we close, I would love for you to share if there is additional contact information. I know that you gave your website of frictionlessmentalhealth.com.
Jeremy Fischbach: [00:45:04] Check that out. Anybody can email me directly at [email protected]. I would love to hear from any of your listeners, whether they're-if they just want to talk more about this stuff. Obviously you and I, Sara, are collaborating, and I'm sure a lot of people may be interested in what you and I are trying to work on together. So yeah, we'd love to hear from people.
Sara Sheehan: [00:45:37] Absolutely. I can't recommend what Jeremy's doing enough. The power that it has to make an impact on employee culture in an organization, to make your employees want to stay and lean into your organization. It could even increase company revenue, which is a mind blowing possibility when you're talking about mental health. I very much appreciate your time today, Jeremy, and I very much look forward to hearing comments from listeners.
Sara Sheehan: [00:46:17] Thank you so much for listening to today's episode of Transformational Thinkers with Sara Sheehan where I interviewed Jeremy Fischbach, CEO of Happy. We explore the critical inefficiencies of traditional employee assistance programs and how Jeremy's approach is revolutionizing the industry. Here are the three big takeaways from today's discussion. First, frictionless support systems. Jeremy discusses the importance of removing friction from mental health support services. His company, Happy, offers proactive, zero step emotional support, ensuring employees receive care without the burden of navigating complex systems. The model boasts significantly higher adoption rates compared to traditional employee assistance programs. Second, ROI and workforce retention. Happy's innovative approach doesn't just improve employee wellbeing, it also results in tangible benefits for companies. By providing real time emotional support and data analytics, Happy has demonstrated high returns on investment, including an 8 to 1 ROI for a large Medicaid plan and a remarkable reduction in workforce turnover by up to 40% in some organizations. Third, simplifying mental health care. Jeremy critiques the over-clinicalization of mental health, which often increases stigma and complicates access to care. By offering non-clinical, supportive interactions that mirror the care of friends and family, Happy achieves clinical level outcomes in a simpler, more accessible manner. I can't thank Jeremy enough for giving me some time out of his busy schedule. I feel like he, truly, is on the path of revolutionizing access to mental health in large organizations, and the return on investment in mental health, truly disrupting the industry. I would be remiss if I didn't mention, please subscribe and never miss an episode.
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Fehlende Folgen?
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Sara Sheehan talks about the power of authenticity in leadership in today’s episode. Authenticity is about leading in a genuine way, with transparency and in alignment with personal values and the organization’s mission. She breaks down exactly what authentic leadership looks like and how it sets executives apart by making them trusted and effective.
Sara shares five core components that define authenticity in leadership: The Core of Authentic Leadership, Why Authentic Leaders Are More Trusted, The Competitive Advantage of Authentic Leadership, How to Cultivate Authentic Leadership, and Authenticity as a Catalyst for Change. She breaks down each core value into directive steps that examine how to incorporate it into daily leadership.
The ways in which authentic leadership improve how an executive is viewed are many, but it’s not simply a perspective change. It’s a change to the way in which an executive operates. Authentic leadership understands alignment between words and actions, it shows that vulnerability is strength, and it cultivates open and frequent communication. As Sara unpacks authentic leadership, she reveals a path to a more genuine way of leading that will effect sincere change with repercussive benefits to the organization as a whole.
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Contact Sara Sheehan | Sara Sheehan Consulting:
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Transcript:
Sara Sheehan: [00:00:02] Hi there, I'm Sara Sheehan and welcome to my podcast, Transformational Thinkers with Sara Sheehan. Today, I'm talking about a topic that is very near and dear to my heart, the power of authenticity in leadership. Why CEOs and executives who lead with integrity inspire trust and drive business success. In today's fast paced, interconnected world, the one element that remains constant in high functioning organizations, is trust. As leaders, CEOs and business executives are in a unique position to influence culture, foster resilience, and drive meaningful change. But with skepticism on the rise, due to an era filled with buzzwords and spin, the best leaders are finding that authenticity is a key to inspiring loyalty and commitment within their teams. Authenticity goes beyond simply being yourself, it's about leading in a way that is genuine, transparent, and aligned with your values and the organization's mission. Authentic leaders build organizations that attract and retain top talent, maintain trust with key stakeholders, and develop lasting resilience to weather market uncertainties. This monologue explores why being an authentic leader not only sets you apart, but also makes you a far more trusted and effective executive.
Sara Sheehan: [00:01:48] 'The Core of Authentic Leadership'. Authentic leadership, in essence, involves a commitment to being open, consistent, and true to one's values and principles. An authentic leader exhibits self-awareness, a clear understanding of personal strengths and weaknesses, and maintains integrity regardless of circumstances. This approach helps leaders foster genuine relationships and develop trust based cultures that drive long term success. Research shows that authenticity has become increasingly valued in the workplace. In Deloitte's Global Human Capital Trends report, over the last four years they have found that more than 80% of employees expressed a desire for their leaders to demonstrate empathy, an element closely linked to authenticity. As employees and clients alike seek trustworthy and transparent organizations, leaders who prioritize authenticity become magnetic forces, naturally attracting both talent and clientele.
Sara Sheehan: [00:03:01] 'Why Authentic Leaders Are More Trusted'. For CEOs and executives, the ability to inspire trust is indispensable. Trust is at the heart of every successful relationship, from boardrooms to client engagements. Here are key reasons why authentic leaders inspire great trust. First, consistency and transparency. Authentic leaders are consistent in their actions, providing employees and stakeholders with a stable foundation upon which to rely. When executives are transparent about their intentions, motivations, and even setbacks, they send a message of reliability and accountability. This builds trust because it allows others to see that the leader's decisions are rooted in a clear and honest approach. For example, consider an executive leading an organization through a difficult restructuring by clearly communicating the rationale behind the change, addressing the challenges openly, and ensuring a process that respects employee's contributions. Authentic leaders demonstrate commitment to fairness and ethical standards.
Sara Sheehan: [00:04:26] Second, alignment between words and actions. Actions that align with words form a strong foundation of trust. Employees and stakeholders watch carefully to see if leaders walk the talk. Authentic leaders not only talk about core values, but also consistently act upon them. When leaders say they value innovation, for instance, but discourage new ideas and meetings, employees quickly notice the inconsistency and become disengaged. CEOs and executives who embody alignment between words and actions model a type of integrity that resonates throughout the organization. When an organization's core values are demonstrated from the top down, it encourages every team member to live up to the same standards, creating a cohesive and motivated workforce.
Sara Sheehan: [00:05:26] Third, vulnerability is strength. Contrary to the traditional notion that leaders must always project invulnerability, authentic leaders understand that showing vulnerability humanizes them. This willingness to admit mistakes, acknowledge shortcomings, or seek input from others demonstrates humility, which strengthens the connection with employees. In many corporate cultures, acknowledging mistakes has historically been discouraged. However, by demonstrating a willingness to learn and grow, leaders give permission to their teams to do the same. Vulnerability in this way is not a weakness, but a bridge to building authentic relationships that foster creativity, resilience, and innovation.
Sara Sheehan: [00:06:22] 'The Competitive Advantage of Authentic Leadership'. In addition to building trust, authenticity provides leaders with a clear competitive advantage. Here's how. First, stronger team engagement. Employee engagement and retention are paramount concerns in today's business environment. Gallup's research shows that organizations with highly engaged teams experience 21% higher profitability. Authentic leaders foster environments where employees feel seen and valued. By engaging authentically with team members, leaders cultivate a culture that enhances commitment, creativity, and loyalty, ultimately driving performance and reducing turnover costs.
Sara Sheehan: [00:07:19] Second, enhanced customer relationships. Customers today seek authenticity in the companies they choose to do business with. Studies indicate that 86% of customers are more likely to support a brand that is open and honest about its operations. For executives, leading authentically extends beyond the organization's internal culture and can positively impact client relationships, brand loyalty, and market reputation. When an organization is led by someone who genuinely believes in its products, services, and mission, that conviction resonates with customers and builds brand loyalty.
Sara Sheehan: [00:08:06] Third, navigating change effectively. Change is inevitable in today's fast evolving business landscape. Whether due to technological advancements, shifting market demands, or economic disruptions, authentic leaders are more adept at managing change because they prioritized honest communication, which is essential for maintaining stability during times of transition. When teams trust their leaders, they are more willing to adapt to new strategies and rally around long term goals. By fostering a culture of trust, authentic leaders help create a resilient organization that can navigate change with greater agility.
Sara Sheehan: [00:08:56] 'How to Cultivate Authentic Leadership'. While authenticity is increasingly recognized as vital to effective leadership, it does not always come naturally. Executives looking to become more authentic can take concrete steps to develop this style of leadership. First, practice self-reflection. Self-awareness is an absolute cornerstone of authenticity. Executives benefit from routinely engaging in self-reflection to gain clarity on their personal values, strengths, and areas for growth. Practices such as journaling, seeking feedback, and mentorship are effective tools for cultivating self-awareness and can help leaders better align their personal values with their professional goals.
Sara Sheehan: [00:09:51] Second, communicate openly and frequently. Open communication is a critical tool for authentic leaders. Regular, transparent updates to teams about organizational goals, changes, and challenges, build trust and reduce speculation or fear. Open dialog should also be bidirectional. Executives should create spaces for team members to voice concerns, ideas and feedback, thereby fostering a culture of mutual respect.
Sara Sheehan: [00:10:28] Third, seek genuine connections. Build genuine relationships within an organization. It enhances the leader's ability to understand and connect with team members. CEOs and executives should make time to know employees, whether through small group meetings or informal interactions. Leaders who take a vested interest in their employee's well-being and development demonstrate that they value individuals beyond their job titles, thereby building a more engaged and loyal team.
Sara Sheehan: [00:11:09] Fourth, lead with empathy and integrity. Empathy allows leaders to understand the diverse perspectives and challenges that employees face, creating a more inclusive and supportive workplace. Leaders should actively work to understand different viewpoints and address concerns fairly. Moreover, demonstrating integrity through ethical decision making reinforces the leader's commitment to a principled approach, strengthening the trust that employees and stakeholders place in them.
Sara Sheehan: [00:11:48] 'Authenticity as a Catalyst for Change'. For CEOs and executives seeking to foster growth and drive successful change, authenticity is no longer optional, it's essential. By leading with authenticity, executives can create a positive organizational culture built on trust, openness, and resilience. Authentic leaders inspire loyalty, commitment, empowering teams to excel, adapt, and innovate in a fast changing business environment. Ultimately, authenticity in leadership is not just about making good decisions, but about building a legacy of trust and excellence that transcends the challenges of today and creates a foundation for tomorrow. As a leader, embracing authenticity may be the single most powerful way to influence not only your organization's performance, but also the trust and loyalty of those who drive it's success. For CEOs and executives, leading authentically is more than a strategy, it's a catalyst for genuine, lasting change. Thanks so much for listening to my podcast today. As always, subscribe and never miss an episode.
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Sara Sheehan’s guest in this episode is Kevin Wilkins, CEO of Trepwise, a New Orleans-based strategy firm that has worked with over 550 purpose-driven organizations. Kevin talks with Sara about what life events changed his career path and why Trepwise is such an important step for him. They explore what it takes to build a sustainable business in the present day and what leaders need to know.
Kevin describes moving his family to New Orleans 4 and ½ years after Hurricane Katrina had hit after his wife got a great job offer. Once in the city, he began to look at how nonprofits had sprung up to assist New Orleans after Katrina but how despite the money flowing in, they were all vying for same funding and not many had a sustainable plan. That ultimately led him to found Trepwise. He unpacks what Trepwise is designed to do and how it functions, especially amongst the specific needs of New Orleans.
Sara and Kevin talk about the driving motivation behind Trepwise and the human-centred approach Kevin focuses on taking. He points out that not only has he learned a great deal about nonprofit business and sustainability in that format but that the work he’s doing has taught him a lot and brought him immense personal satisfaction when goals for child welfare or improvement initiatives are realized. Kevin’s passion for his work and the city he lives in is evident throughout and his vision, through Trepwise, has created a sustainable foundation for many organizations wanting to help.
About Kevin Wilkins
Kevin N. Wilkins is the Founder and CEO of Trepwise, a growth consulting firm with a mission to unlock the potential of purpose-driven organizations by aligning people, process, and vision.
Kevin moved to New Orleans in 2010 and served as Entrepreneur-in-Residence and COO for The Idea Village from 2011 – 2013. His experience working closely with entrepreneurs in the New Orleans area led him to launch Trepwise in 2013. With more than 30 years of experience in corporate and private ventures, Kevin has built a strong team of consultants at Trepwise who collectively have worked with over 500 organizations within private and public sectors, nonprofits, and foundations.
Kevin has also served on several nonprofit boards, currently for YPO Louisiana, Tulane Hillel, Institute of Mental Hygiene, City Year New Orleans, Touro Synagogue, Collegiate Academies, Jewish Federation of Greater New Orleans, The Foundation for Science and Mathematics Education, and formerly for Louisiana Children’s Museum, Pelican Bomb, Propeller: A Force for Social Innovation.
Kevin is a graduate of Dartmouth College and holds an MBA from Harvard Business School, as well as holding executive leadership positions with Procter & Gamble, Fidelity Investments, and State Street Research & Management. In addition, Kevin is a lead mentor for the national Goldman Sachs 10,000 Small Businesses Program and a mentor to startups in the Spark10 accelerator program based in India.
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Contact Sara Sheehan | Sara Sheehan Consulting:
SaraWSheehan.comSara Sheehan on LinkedInMeet with SaraKevin Wilkins | Trepwise Strategy Consulting
Website: Trepwise.comKevin Wilkins on LinkedIn__
Transcript
Sara Sheehan: [00:00:03] Hi there, I'm Sara Sheehan and welcome to my podcast, Transformational Thinkers with Sara Sheehan. Today I'm joined by Kevin Wilkins, CEO of Trepwise, a New Orleans based strategy firm who has collectively worked with over 550 purpose driven organizations. Kevin found his greatest impact serving nonprofit, foundation and public private spaces with one goal in mind: developing thriving and equitable communities nourished by good ideas. Kevin is a graduate of Dartmouth College and holds an MBA from Harvard Business School. He has held executive leadership positions with Procter and Gamble, Fidelity Investments, and State Street Research and Management. Kevin, I am so glad to be chatting with you today and to have you on my show. Welcome.
Kevin Wilkins: [00:01:09] Thank you, Sara. I appreciate being here.
Sara Sheehan: [00:01:11] Wonderful. So Kevin, I'd love to hear from you what led you to, and motivated you, to create your business?
Kevin Wilkins: [00:01:24] That probably requires some additional background. First of all, thank you for sharing my bio so I won't dwell on that too much. The one headline from my bio that was not there is that I married a woman from New Orleans, and that will become relevant in a few minutes. Apparently when you marry someone from New Orleans, you do end up living in New Orleans at some point in your life, it just took us 28 years to get here. We met in college many years ago, and we spent most of our married life in New England. I started my career in packaged goods at Procter and Gamble, as you mentioned, and then I went to Harvard Business School and transitioned into financial services. What I learned at Procter and Gamble was tremendous and transforming for me. They really invest in training, they really invest in helping you understand what it means to run a business. I was able to do that as part of their brand management program, I really liked it. I was in the household cleaning division and I was 22 years old, and to be honest with you, household cleaning was not the biggest passion of my life, but I learned a lot about how one manages and how one engages with consumers, and how you get some insights and how you can do the marketing and the finance and all the manufacturing behind the scenes. It was very interesting work, I just didn't love the category.
Kevin Wilkins: [00:02:36] When I went to Harvard Business School, I got exposed to the financial markets. I was intrigued by them, and I thought they were very dynamic. I liked what I did at Procter, can I do my general management concept? But instead of household cleaners, let's talk about the financial markets. That's what led me to Fidelity Investments, as you mentioned. That began a 20 year path for me in financial services, which was interesting because every time I went back to Harvard Business School, people would say to me, you're still in financial services? I'm like, yeah, somewhat surprised. I was more the marketing guy maybe, I was more the creative, so I don't think people saw me in that space, but I really did enjoy it. I was running organizations within financial services. I was often doing innovation and product development, I was doing some change management work, so it allowed me to leverage a lot of general management skills. 20 years later there I was, still in financial services. I reflect on that, but 20 years later I was president of an organization that we ended up selling to a larger organization in financial services in New York.
Kevin Wilkins: [00:03:42] At that point, my time at financial services paused. I was reflecting on my time, and realizing that I was put on a path right out of school. I went to the right company, I went to the right business school, I ended up going to the other right company. I always linked to big brands, although that wasn't necessarily my intent, that's just where I ended up. I knew what to do to be successful. You're on a path and they tell you, to get to the next level you need to do A, B, C, and D. You work hard, you excel and you do your best and if you do well, you can continue to pursue the path. 20 years later I had reached a pinnacle on the path, but what I began to realize was this path was given to me. I made decisions to stay on the path, but in order to stay on the path, you had to do A, B, C, and D. I did A, B, C, and D and was able to succeed. I didn't really think through the choices I'm making in my career. I was on a career path, I followed the rules and I did well. 20 years later I was still in financial services.
Kevin Wilkins: [00:04:49] That's when you pause and say, what just happened? I reflect on this phase of my life, I benefited and I enjoyed my time. I don't want to minimize that, I did enjoy the time, I did enjoy the people I worked with. I enjoyed what we were able to accomplish, but at the same time, maybe it wasn't as intentional as I would have wanted it to be. I believe that it's really important when you're managing your own career, I've got three children and I say this to each of them, you want to make sure you're making the right choices for you in any given moment, and you need to make sure that you're not being dictated by others in terms of what you need to do to succeed, but you're instead making choices around what you feel you need to do to succeed. I think many people of my generation, maybe less so in this generation, find themselves on these paths unintentionally. 20 years later, there you are. I joke about mid-life crises, maybe this is why people have midlife crises because they begin to realize that they really haven't made many choices in their careers.
Kevin Wilkins: [00:05:55] They stick to what they know, and they stick to what they're good at, and they just follow the rules and they get to a certain level. I share that with you because, when we moved to New Orleans in 2010, everything shifted for me. My wife, as I said, is from New Orleans. The transaction had happened with the firm that I'd been at, so I had some flexibility to do different things. My wife is a professional fundraiser in the university setting, she was raising money for Harvard for many years, and she got a phone call from Tulane. She said Tulane was curious in terms of whether she would consider raising money for them. Never had she gotten a headhunter call from Louisiana, let alone New Orleans, let alone Tulane. All of this was something that would really be good for her career and her choices. We're like, is it time? We've been in Boston for over 20 years, we loved it there. We didn't have family there so we build our own networks. The kids were established. It was a big decision to shift. The one constraint that we didn't have was my career. I could do what I was doing at that time, I was doing some advertising work, I was doing some investing work, I could actually do that anywhere.
Kevin Wilkins: [00:07:00] So we decided in 2010 to move. Packed up the truck and we moved on down. My boys were 7, 9 and 13 at the time. My 13 year old said that we were ruining his life single handedly, those special parental moments. We're like, let's see if we can find a smile and let's move on down. Then three years after being here, he was like, this is the best place to be from, this is the best place to be a teenager. I'm like, yes, in fact it is. Nevertheless, it was a very good move for the family and a very good move for my wife's career. It gave me a moment to ask an intentional question. That question is, what do I want to do? My wife asked that right when we decided to move. She's like, what are you going to do? What do you think about doing? Do you want to do early retirement? You can do some volunteer stuff. I'm like, I don't know, that doesn't sit well, no I don't think so, way too young, not going to do that. I'll explore, and maybe I'll see what I want to do. What what was interesting is never did it come to me, never in my consideration set did I say, I wonder what I can do in financial services. Instead I said, I wonder what I can do to help the community in a post-Katrina world.
Kevin Wilkins: [00:08:23] We moved here four and a half years after Katrina. The city had made progress, clearly, but still had a lot of recovery to do. The money was drying up, the cameras had all gone away, and suddenly the city is faced with some challenges around, how can we sustain momentum? How can we continue to recover? The good news is a lot of people move to New Orleans after Katrina, really wanted to come and help the city. A lot of money flowed into New Orleans after Katrina. A lot of nonprofits were built, a lot of social services were put in place, and a lot of really well-intended people wanted to come here and help the city. Unfortunately when I got here, as I said, the cameras had all gone away and I was seeing a city that had a lot of non-profits that were established, but perhaps they were all chasing the same money, and some of them would not be sustainable. I began exploring the city. What does the community need? What kind of impact can I make? I started in, what I call, the incubation and acceleration space. A lot of money had come into New Orleans to help fund organizations, to help startups get off the ground. I worked for a few organizations that were helping entrepreneurs get their ideas off the ground. The idea was, if we could build different companies within the New Orleans ecosystem, we would then help create jobs, and we would help build out a middle class. New Orleans really did not have a strong middle class as part of its community design, so how can we create more industry that would create more jobs? That's interesting, I think I can understand how to build companies, I can help with that. I began building curriculum out, I began teaching, I taught at Tulane as an adjunct for a few years, and was diving in to how to help entrepreneurs get their organizations off the ground. There were several types of incubators in the city. Some were for profit, some were nonprofit, but they both had the same idea. How can we get these organizations off the ground in generating jobs? What I noticed, though, is that there were not a lot of organizations that could help these organizations stay off the ground. I joke that Louisiana was very good at launching ideas, we need to help these organizations sustain and grow their ideas.
Sara Sheehan: [00:10:51] Staying in business is definitely harder than many people plan for.
Kevin Wilkins: [00:10:56] 100%, because everyone focuses on the launch. Get it off the ground, it's so exciting. We have to talk about year two and year three and what that looks like. What was interesting is, I met with the Greater New Orleans Foundation, which is a fantastic organization in the city, a community foundation that's doing transformational work. When I met with them, it was around ten years ago, right before I started Trepwise. They wanted me to look at some of the nonprofits that they had been funding, and they wanted to get my perspective on what's it going to take to make them sustainable. I said, listen, I've sat on boards before, but I'm not a nonprofit leader of any kind, I'm more of a business background. They're like, exactly, we want to have a business acumen placed against this nonprofit structure. The light bulb went on. I'm like, isn't that interesting? If I could help these nonprofits put together a plan to sustain themselves and grow their impact, wouldn't that be great for the community? My background is actually pretty well suited. I know how to run organizations and I know how to grow organizations. You have to familiarize yourself with the operations of a nonprofit and how the fundamentals work, but it's not rocket science. It was really interesting to see the diversity of ideas and the diversity of purpose that existed within New Orleans.
Kevin Wilkins: [00:12:19] If I was able to help just one of these organizations do well, than it would have been worth the trip. I talk about intentionality, because for the first time it wasn't about me. My career was about me, let me be clear. When I was in financial services, it was about me. What was my title? What was my role? What was my responsibility? What was my stature? It was about me, for the good and the bad. In New Orleans, it wasn't about me, it was about the community. It was about the needs of the greater whole. It was about how can I help contribute, and wander into places that, if you told me that I was going to start helping nonprofits grow their impact, I'd be like, what education do I have to do that? But when you wander your way into something because you're curious, because you're making intentional choices, because you've asked yourself the question, what do I want to do? What do I really want to do? What is the impact? What is the legacy that I'm looking to build here? Then the outcomes tend to be slightly different.
Sara Sheehan: [00:13:27] Definitely. That's a wonderful way to frame the time that led up to you creating Trepwise. Can you share with me what lessons you have learned from building and scaling Trepwise so far? I'm sure there are many.
Kevin Wilkins: [00:13:49] I've learned a whole lot. First of all, I never intended to build this type of consulting organization. When I started Trepwise, it was more, what can I do to help support these specific nonprofits that I've been working with? I need some support behind me. I started Trepwise with the idea that we can help purpose driven organizations. I wasn't thinking about the scale, and I wasn't thinking about the breadth of work that we could be doing. It was literally, in the moment I had a lot to do, so I'm going to start a company to help me do this, I'm going to hire someone who can help support me. Ten years later, there are 15 of us. We've got subject matter experts that we work with, which would make us a larger organization as well, that we do that as contractors. We're working with not only nonprofits at a national level, but we also do strategic planning work for the nonprofits, we do systems planning work, helping organizations work together to solve a common challenge. Then we do a lot of organizational effectiveness work, how can we strengthen what you have and how can we maximize what you do? Those three areas started in New Orleans, and I say I built this for New Orleans and it will always be for New Orleans, but having this national platform right now and working with nonprofits from around the country has been so fulfilling.
Kevin Wilkins: [00:15:10] I think one of the first lessons was, do not limit yourself. Don't say, I can only do a few nonprofits right now and we'll see how that goes. Think big, think about what you can do to maximize your impact, and think about how you can perhaps scale yourself. That was the question that I was dealing with early on, how do I scale me? My team often laughs at me because I would ask the question, is Kevin bigger than Trepwise, or is Trepwise bigger than Kevin, as a bellwether. The answer often was, Kevin's bigger than Trepwise. People come here because of Kevin, and he's helping these organizations. 10, 11 years later, Trepwise is much bigger than Kevin. We have clients that I have never met. We have work that perhaps I wouldn't even know how to do specifically, but I've built an incredible team to do this type of work, and you stay on point. The other lesson that I've learned, number one don't limit yourself. Number two, stick to your vision, stick to your mission, and stick to your values. If you can stick to your values and live your values every single day, then you're going to continue to do the next right thing.
Kevin Wilkins: [00:16:22] We're also very much of a human centered firm. What that means is, we understand who the stakeholders are for any given opportunity that we're working on, and we want to understand what their perspectives are, what are their needs. We do that with all of our clients. When you're working with a nonprofit, you talk to staff, you talk to board, you talk to funders, you talk to the beneficiaries of the nonprofit because you want to understand what exactly is working and where some of the challenges are, and you want to get the full picture of it all. Then everything you do is human centered in terms of what's driving you. What I often say is, lesson 3 or 4, do not fall in love with your own ideas. Do not fall in love with what you're doing. Stay consistent, consistently show up and do what you do and stay agile. Listen to what the clients are really saying, listen to the diversity of stakeholder voices that are really important. If you can do that for yourself just as much as we do it for our clients, that's the huge win. We continue to evolve this team, as we continue to strengthen our team and to deepen our team's talent. As we got larger engagements, as we got larger systems work, it was all a very logical set of choices we were making as a firm.
Kevin Wilkins: [00:17:42] The pandemic changed everything for us in many ways. One, it really helped us help the community because the community was in crisis. New Orleans is a tourism town, 80% of revenue for tourism. Suddenly the pandemic hits, and hotels and restaurants, the layoffs and the musicians and the cultural economy, it was all so challenged. We were able to take that moment, and we did a ton of pro-bono work. We're like, we're going to help you, we're going to stay focused, we're going to stay present, we're going to stay the course in terms of what we need to do as an organization, and we're going to help these organizations maximize this opportunity of transition. We're going to make sure these organizations feel like they are supported. In doing so, we were able not only to help the New Orleans community, but our reputation led us to help other communities as well around the country and helping different nonprofits and different organizations weather this pandemic. Whether it be in the hospitality space or across across the board. When you are facing a huge pandemic, the funders aren't necessarily going to be funding your programing because your programing isn't necessarily happening. So how do we help organizations reimagine how they do what they do in a very uncertain time?
Sara Sheehan: [00:19:05] There's no question, the pandemic really changed the rules for so many people. Hospitality was disproportionately affected overall, but take into consideration that there were 1 billion adults globally that were laid off during that time frame, and that data point alone, and that is from the Gallup organization, that is an absolutely shocking statistic that tells you how far ranging the economic downturn from the pandemic really was. Very compelling and interesting. Kevin, I'd love to hear, based on some of your comments, you've talked a little bit about the lessons that you've learned from building your business and the focus that you have in the nonprofit space. I can only imagine, from the efforts that you've taken to influence and impact others, that you've gotten a lot in return personally for the impact that you've made in your market. Can you share with me what the three most significant things you've gotten in return for the work that you've done with nonprofits?
Kevin Wilkins: [00:20:36] That's a great question. It is the most satisfying work that I've ever done. Let me be clear, I'm running a small consulting organization. I am not making nearly as much money as I made when I was in financial services. No one has heard of Trepwise until your reputation continues to grow. It's not Procter and Gamble and it's not Fidelity Investments, let's be clear. All of that criteria for me absolutely went away, yet I've never been happier and I've never been more satisfied with what we're doing. When I think about impact, I think about seeing our plans come to life and actually working. I see leaders, who we coach in terms for leadership and executive development and professional development, I see them thriving and I see them making choices, and I see them giving credit to what Trepwise has done in order to help support them. I think some of our biggest impact has been not only working within organizations to maximize their impact through planning work or through organizational effectiveness work, and to see organizations transform themselves, but I've also seen the impact of organizations working with each other. We have an interesting seat because we work with a lot of different organizations, both locally and nationally, and we've been able to introduce different organizations to each other to combine efforts to make even a bigger impact.
Kevin Wilkins: [00:22:11] What I've seen, and I didn't actually see it coming to be honest with you. Again, you need to be intentional, you need to make the choices. We do a lot of systems work, and systems work is, how can we address a community need collectively to ensure that we can get the outcomes that we're striving for. We are stronger together than we are alone. An example of that would be a plan that we did for the state of Louisiana two years ago called Whole Health Louisiana. What we did is, how can we address childhood adversity across the state? Let's understand what childhood adversity looks like. Let's talk about what trauma means. Let's understand what we need to do to identify trauma and childhood adversity. What do we need to do to help address it, and what do we ultimately need to do to help prevent it from happening going forward? If you think about it, we worked with over 100 organizations together, funded by the First Lady's office of the state. It was not a political office, it was the First Lady's foundation, Donna Edwards. We worked over a two year window to understand the space, understand the players, understand outcomes that we'd be looking for collectively, understand who would play what role within the system, understand the system leverage points that need to be shifted and need to be addressed, and then see it come to life.
Kevin Wilkins: [00:23:45] That is the work I am most proud of. If we can help move the needle in Louisiana when it comes to childhood welfare, that is a win beyond a win. People were in a room talking with each other, and we were facilitating conversations, and we were designing experiences where people could work together to come up with common solutions. Was 100% satisfied. Since then, we've done the youth master plan for New Orleans, how can we help opportunity to youth create pathways to success? We are doing the Vision of New Orleans plan, what is New Orleans going to look like in 2035 because of the work we've done here? We did the cultural economy plan in Houston. I often say New Orleans is a fantastic incubator because they've got lots of new ideas here, and we're very strong in culture and we're very strong in the arts, and we've got a lot of youth that need support. If you can manage it in New Orleans, you can manage it in other cities as well. Again, I didn't think this way when I started. I was like, I just want to see if I can help the community. I want to see if I can help these organizations. I loved what we did so much, it continued to grow.
Sara Sheehan: [00:25:00] It sounds like some of the things that you got in return were some incredible opportunities to dive into areas of interest that had even more impact in the community and the state. Very interesting and compelling, that's fascinating. I know that you are in the process of writing a book on intentionality, which is a very compelling and interesting leadership topic. I was wondering if you could share with me what your books through-line is.
Kevin Wilkins: [00:25:44] The idea is defining what an intentional career really is, and understanding the pathways that you are on and the choices that you are making, and ensuring that you are moving in a direction that you personally want to move into, and that you can control what you choose to do in your life. The minute you shift to an intentional concept, the more satisfied you're going to be, the more ownership you're going to feel, and the real outcomes that you're looking for are personal. You feel like you own your path and you can own the outcomes that you're able to achieve. It's not about the brand you're linked to, it's not about your title, it's not about your money. Those are all nice trappings, that's fine. I'm not going to minimize the importance of that in terms of people's ability to live a full life. I don't want anyone waking up one day and say, I've been on this path for 20 years, the path can go away. If you're not intentional, and you are living by someone else's rules, and you just keep doing the next right thing on this path and you keep excelling, fine. The path can go away. For example, in my situation, when we had the transaction with the firm in New York City, that was it. I stayed on for a little while, but I wasn't moving to New York City, and that was it.
Kevin Wilkins: [00:27:16] That path had a moment and it stopped. I could have hustled to get another job on the path and I could have jumped back in without thinking and just keep focused on what I had been doing, but I didn't want to. I took a moment to breathe, and I think that moment to breathe was the lever to say, you know what? Let me shift it. It's not what they want me to do. What do I want to do? Shifting your mindset to intentionality and to choice is so important, and it's never too late. I think the generation of my kids, perhaps, I think they tend to be more intentional. I think they are making choices because they want to do good in the world. I think this is slightly different with this younger generation. I think they want to work for organizations that are making a difference. Yes it's a paycheck, and yes they want to do well and they want to have benefits and all that, and they want to make a difference. I think if we can help this generation be intentional about their careers and the benefits that come with intentionality, then that's going to be the huge win.
Sara Sheehan: [00:28:35] That's fascinating and very interesting. I'm very interested in exploring the book when it's available. When do you anticipate the book would come out?
Kevin Wilkins: [00:28:48] The goal is to have it completed in 2025. Hopefully halfway through, so the summer of 2025. We're aggressively working on it right now.
Sara Sheehan: [00:28:56] Perfect, that's not very long at all. That's very exciting, excellent. So Kevin, what are three things that you would like to impact most by working with nonprofit clients?
Kevin Wilkins: [00:29:17] Are you referring to social impact work, or are you referring to what I want to help a client do?
Sara Sheehan: [00:29:23] I'm referring to, for instance, if it were an opportunity of your dreams and you could make a difference in these three areas, what would you like to do?
Kevin Wilkins: [00:29:40] The good news and the bad news is, society is not lacking in social issues. I love the idea of being able to help move the needle in different spaces. The cultural economy is so important to the fabric of New Orleans. What you find, you talk about our vision of a thriving and equitable community. Oftentimes who we call the culture bearers of the city, whether they be the Mardi Gras Indians, whether they be crews that dance in the Mardi Gras parades, often are featured as part of the tourism story, but don't necessarily benefit from the tourists coming here, they don't get compensated, but they draw the people here. How can we create a system that's so valued within New Orleans and help build out that economy, such that all culture bearers benefit from the tourism that comes here? That is not a unique idea, and that is not a unique issue. There are cultural assets across other cities that fall into that same area. There's also so much culture here in terms of the types of activities that New Orleans provides. How can we help coordinate that system to ensure that everyone's benefiting and that we're creating a major impact in the tourist space? I really love that work, I value that work. I know culture bearers in the city who are so passionate about this, and I just want to make sure that everyone can benefit from the tourism that comes into this city and the tourism that's generated by other cities as well. Mental health is a huge issue out there and our youth are suffering. We did the mental health work supporting Tulane at the university level and put together a significant plan that helps support the mental health challenges of youth within the university.
Kevin Wilkins: [00:31:37] Taking that concept, and we've been applying that to other schools as well because mental health is so important. How can we help move the needle on that space? Food access, food insecurity is a big deal. One of our first systems effort, I didn't even think of it as a system. I was like, how can we help these organizations coordinate? When the pandemic hit, people were going hungry, and the city and FEMA and the Greater New Orleans Foundation came together and said, we need to create a process that all these restaurants that we have, a ton of restaurants that we have per capita, more than any other city in the country, all the food that they had on the shelf, what can we do to help them make meals and distribute that through a system to the people who needed them most in New Orleans, and how can FEMA help support this? It was an economic challenge to say, we need to build a system. Although I didn't use those fancy words back then, we just need to help these organizations coordinate. We stepped in like we did with a normal organization. Instead of working within an organization, we began working across organizations. FEMA was involved and the Greater New Orleans Foundation was involved, and the cities were involved, and the end users were there, and we did it quickly.
Sara Sheehan: [00:32:57] Those are three really compelling areas. You're talking about success of the cultural ecosystem in your market, you're talking about food insecurity is huge, and mental health is absolutely a giant area to make a big impact. Those are pretty tremendous. It sounds like that you might have something else on your mind there, you were about to share something else. Was there something else in that space that you wanted to share?
Kevin Wilkins: [00:33:35] Oftentimes when I was in financial services, you were able to say, I did this. I built this organization or I helped manage this money or whatever the claim might be. Almost heroic in a way, but not truly by any means. I look at this work that we're doing now, the work that I've chosen to do, and I realized, you know what, we're going to help move the needle. We are not going to solve this problem, and we need to be okay with that. We need to be okay with the idea that we're here to help coordinate, we're here to help maximize the impact of any given organization, and we need to be comfortable with the incremental concept. As opposed to, I'm going to solve world hunger. That's a fantastic claim to make, and that's a fantastic goal to have, but I think you need to be more realistic with this work. We need to continue to move the needle, we will never, ever be done, and being okay with that. It's not about the problems of solving something, it's about the ability to help move things forward.
Sara Sheehan: [00:34:46] Very much so. Moving something forward and being patient, sometimes you can have an even bigger result if you are patient. When you move too fast or you're doing something that may not have a good strategy or vision behind it, you may not have, what I would call, a path to success that you would have if you were just a little bit more patient. It may not be a straight line.
Kevin Wilkins: [00:35:27] Never, and being okay with that is key.
Sara Sheehan: [00:35:30] Exactly. I'd love to hear from you, Kevin, if you could influence other businesses or business leaders out in the world to do one thing in the nonprofit sector, what would that be?
Kevin Wilkins: [00:35:49] That's a great question. I want to go back to my comment about this current generation of workers want meaning in their life. They want to work with organizations that can provide meaning, both through the work they do for the core premise of the organization as well as the social impact it can do. In fact, studies would show that people will take less salary if they feel they're working with an organization that's trying to do good in the community. That's the framing. There's a motivation for organizations to want to do good. It's not necessarily about the profit that they can make all the time, it's more about that triple bottom line of trying to do some social good at the same time. I would encourage organizations to find their passion. What is their philanthropic strategy? What do they want to do to give back? Question number one, do you want to give back? Is that something that is important? Some organizations might be like, I got to focus on other things. I would argue that baked into your fundamentals needs to be this concept of giving back. Let's understand what you can do as an organization from a philanthropic strategy. Choose what you want to do and where you want to make a difference.
Kevin Wilkins: [00:37:07] Then encourage your employees and encourage your leadership team to look at the time, look at their talent, look at their treasure, and see what they can do to help support the issue that you, as an organization, want to make an impact on. Then finally, align vision with the actual work. If your vision is A, B and C, your vision to reimagine the world, if you're a technology company. Cool, let's reimagine the world, we can use technology, and then we want to create a cultural literacy class that helps individuals learn how to use technology and create pathways for them to build a career in technology. You're aligning with your vision, but you are doing something that's really good and strategically in line. That's one approach, or you can survey your employee base and say, where is the energy right now? Is the energy in climate, is the energy in food access? Then build programs around where that energy is. For Trepwise, we have this program called 'Trepwork for Good', and it was established because I, during the pandemic, we did a ton of pro bono work. I saw the benefit of it, and I never want people to be priced out of what we can do. We have a 'Trepwork for Good' platform where we were able to choose every quarter, two engagements that we can help maximize their impact.
Sara Sheehan: [00:38:36] That's phenomenal. It creates that cycle, the pay-it-forward cycle I like to say, which I absolutely love. I love doing it on an individual level and I love doing it in the marketplace, it's very compelling. So Kevin, are there any other big goals or aspirations that you are currently working on accomplishing that we haven't talked about today?
Kevin Wilkins: [00:39:07] Not really. Continuing to lead and manage this growing firm and making sure that we're making the right choices in terms of the work that we're doing, I think is super important. I do want to complete the book and get that done on time and have it be impactful and relevant.
Sara Sheehan: [00:39:25] Wonderful. Well, Kevin, I can't thank you enough for our conversation today. I think that business leaders and businesses can make a bigger difference in the marketplace if they just consider how they are impacting others and how they would like to impact others in a more significant way. Thank you so much for your time today, Kevin.
Sara Sheehan: [00:39:27] Thank you so much for listening to today's episode of Transformational Thinkers with Sara Sheehan. My conversation with Kevin Wilkins is filled with interesting and remarkable insights. In today's episode, Kevin sheds light on the importance of intentionality in your life choices and shares his insights on fostering meaningful work that benefits the community. Here are three key takeaways from our discussion. First, intentional pathways. Kevin emphasizes the significance of making deliberate choices that align with personal values and the broader goal of making a positive impact. He discusses how younger generations are increasingly driven by the desire to contribute to societal good through their work. Second, philanthropic strategies in business. He encourages organizations to integrate philanthropic efforts into core values and align these initiatives with their vision by focusing on the triple bottom line of people, planet, and profit. Businesses can create lasting community impacts. This approach also enhances employee satisfaction even when salaries might be lower. Third, focus on incremental progress in nonprofits. Kevin shares insights into how nonprofit work is often about incremental progress and coordination, rather than solving all the problems outright. He talks about supporting culture bearers, addressing mental health in educational institutions, and tackling food insecurity through collaborative efforts. This episode is a must listen for anyone interested in creating a meaningful and sustainable nonprofit business path. No matter what sector you're working in, if you want to make an impact on your community, you can do it. Tune in and explore Kevin's remarkable journey and his insights. Thanks so much for listening today, subscribe and never miss an episode.
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Sara Sheehan examines how to create a positive company culture based on guidance from Daniel Coyle’s book The Culture Code: The Secrets of Highly Successful Groups. She identifies the three fundamental skills that Coyle singles out as key to sustaining a strong organizational culture - building safety, sharing vulnerability, and establishing purpose - and discusses how each skill improves team performance when implemented.
Sara gets in-depth into how each of the three skills affects company culture for the better. Building safety allows teams to perform well because their members feel safe, connected, and supported. Sharing vulnerability may seem counterintuitive to high performance but Sara reveals that in truth it leads to deeper trust. Establishing a purpose comes through sharing a defined mission and values. Everyone should feel guided by a clear and shared understanding of why they do the work they do.
Far from being merely theoretical, Sara shares how these foundational skills would look in operation through the example of a fictional company putting them into practice. She then follows up with real-world success stories from an unnamed client of hers. Having already used these skills to guide real clients to better results, Sara’s sharing of Coyle’s book and examination of what it means in practice becomes an invaluable tool for unifying companies into a positive culture.
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Resources discussed in this episode:
“The Culture Code: The Secrets of Highly Successful Groups” by Daniel Coyle__
Contact Sara Sheehan | Sara Sheehan Consulting:
SaraWSheehan.comSara Sheehan on LinkedInMeet with Sara__
Transcript:
Sara Sheehan: [00:00:02] Hi there, I'm Sara Sheehan and welcome to my podcast, Transformational Thinkers with Sara Sheehan. Today I'll be sharing a monologue message with you on creating a positive workplace culture. Over the course of my career, the number of companies with toxic workplaces has increased dramatically. There are three key skills that leaders can build to develop and sustain a strong workplace culture. Building safety, sharing vulnerability, and establishing purpose. This month, I'll be talking about building a positive company culture and the insights from 'The Culture Code' by Daniel Coyle. This book provides a wonderful guide for how to address and create a great place to work. Building a positive company culture, key insights from 'The Culture Code'. In 'The Culture Code', Daniel Coyle explores the secrets behind the success of highly productive teams, emphasizing that effective group culture is not a fixed attribute, but rather a dynamic living process. Based on extensive research and visits to eight of the world's most successful groups, Coyle identifies three fundamental skills that leaders can cultivate to create and sustain a strong organizational culture. Building safety, sharing vulnerability, and establishing purpose. In this talk, we will break down these key points, illustrate their practical applications, and offer concrete steps for implementing them in the workplace to foster a positive and thriving company culture.
Sara Sheehan: [00:02:10] First of all, building safety, creating a sense of belonging. The first step toward developing a positive organizational culture is fostering a deep sense of safety within the group. High-performing teams excel when their members feel safe, connected, and supported. They feel like they belong, and this sense of belonging encourages them to contribute their best efforts without fear of exclusion or judgment. Key concepts here include belonging cues. These are subtle signals that people send and receive and social interactions reinforce the message you are safe here and you belong. This can include eye contact, physical proximity, tone of voice, and active listening. Connection and support. Teams that thrive are ones where individuals feel they have each other's backs. There is an implicit understanding that everyone is part of a tight-knit unit working towards a shared goal. Some practical tips for building safety. Create inclusive environments. Leaders should actively create spaces where everyone's voice is heard, regularly soliciting feedback and input from all team members builds a sense of inclusion and value. Focus on nonverbal communication. Small, consistent acts of nonverbal communication can reinforce safety. For example, leaders who make eye contact, nod during conversations, and lean in while listening create an atmosphere where team members feel acknowledged and respected. Celebrate collaboration. Recognize and celebrate not only individual successes, but also collaborative efforts. This shows that teamwork is valued and that the company recognizes and prioritizes group over individual glory.
Sara Sheehan: [00:04:42] Second, sharing vulnerability. Building trust through mutual risks. The second foundational skill in Coyle's framework is sharing vulnerability. High-performing teams do not shy away from vulnerability but embrace it as a path to deeper trust. This involves leaders and team members being open about their weaknesses, uncertainties, and challenges, fostering an environment where trust can thrive. Key concepts here include leaders setting the example. Leadership plays a crucial role in modeling vulnerability. When leaders acknowledge mistakes, ask for help, or admit when they don't have all the answers, they may signal to the team that it's okay to be imperfect. Mutual risks. Teams that perform well together often do so because they take risks together. This collective risk-taking builds resilience, trust, and a willingness to cooperate in times of uncertainty. Some practical steps to share vulnerability. Model vulnerability as a leader. Share personal challenges and lessons from failure with the team. This creates a ripple effect, encouraging others to do the same and building a culture of transparency. Encourage open dialog. Create regular forums where employees can openly share struggles and ask for help. Whether it's a weekly meeting or an anonymous platform, provide spaces where vulnerability is seen as a strength, not a liability. Promote cross-functional teamwork. Working across departments on shared projects can encourage team members to embrace vulnerability. When employees step out of their comfort zones to collaborate with others, they grow to rely on their peers, deepening trust.
Sara Sheehan: [00:07:05] Third, establishing purpose. Defining a shared mission and values. The third key ingredient to a positive company culture is establishing a strong sense of purpose. High-performing teams are guided by a clear and shared understanding of why they are doing the work they do. This shared mission creates alignment and motivation, allowing the team to work with passion and commitment. Key concepts here include defining the why. A strong purpose is a vivid motivational story that gives meaning to the team's work. It answers the question, why are we here, and what are we working toward? Purpose as a compass. When challenges arise, a well-defined purpose serves as a guiding light, helping teams stay focused and motivated. Teams with a clear purpose are more likely to view obstacles as opportunities for growth rather than setbacks. Practical steps to establish purpose. Craft a compelling vision statement. Leaders should invest time in creating and communicating a vision that resonates with the entire team. This vision should inspire, align with the company's values, and be revisited often. Link daily tasks to the bigger picture. Employees are more engaged when they understand how their day-to-day work contributes to the organization's larger goals. Managers should regularly connect with team achievements to the overarching mission. Foster storytelling. Share stories that exemplify the company's purpose in action. These stories should come from customer feedback, significant project milestones, or examples of employees going above and beyond to embody the organization's values.
Sara Sheehan: [00:09:34] Now, I'd like to share a practical example of applying the culture code in real life through a hypothetical example. We'll call the company 'Innovate Tech', and it applies the three principles to cultivate a strong culture. Step one: building safety. Innovate Tech begins by redesigning its physical office layout to encourage open communication and collaboration. The company also implements regular check-ins where every employee has an opportunity to speak. Leaders are trained to actively listen, give feedback, and use nonverbal cues that reinforce safety, such as eye contact and attentive body language. Over time, employees start feeling more secure and valued. Step two sharing vulnerability. The CEO of Innovate Tech sets the tone by openly discussing a recent mistake they made in a project meeting. This admission sparks a company-wide initiative where employees are encouraged to share lessons learned from failures. Innovate Tech adopts a practice called 'Failure Fridays', where employees present a failed project and what they learn from it. The vulnerability increases trust within teams and accelerates problem-solving. Step three establishes purpose. The leadership team at Innovate Tech revised its mission statement to emphasize how the company's innovative products help improve people's lives. They communicate this mission during all-hands meetings, where customer success stories are shared to remind employees of the company's impact. The company also decorates its office with posters highlighting its purpose, constantly reminding employees why their work matters.
Sara Sheehan: [00:11:47] Now let's take a look at a real client example whose name will be protected. This is a recent client that I worked with, and I supported them in creating behavior change plans based on these principles, their desired business outcomes, and key metrics that will help staff adopt new ways of working. Building safety. The client needs to support staff in moving beyond fear to courage and empower them through training so that everyone has a baseline competency in their functional area. The client is planning training across several functional sub-teams that will help them create a level playing field, encouraging employees to take action on a daily basis. Additionally, recommendations included guidance for the functional executive to complete a listening tour to hear the needs and concerns of all employees on a very personal level. Sharing vulnerability. The client set a goal to continuously improve processes, learn from past experience, and use metrics to track performance on a monthly basis. This will involve creating new habits, habit stacking, and sharing results with the team. These actions will certainly provide opportunities for leaders and staff to get vulnerable about how it's going in a personal and a team level. When you choose to get vulnerable and let your staff experiment with new approaches, you will build trust over time. Establishing purpose. The leadership and staff needed a reason to work together on problems with a shared purpose. One approach they will be implementing will be the creation of a two-solution culture. When an employee raises a concern or business problem to a leader, the leader's response will be, let's schedule time on the calendar to discuss this further and bring two solutions to the problem so we can explore the best solution to implement together. This ensures more staff opportunities to work with leaders on a shared purpose and breaks down barriers that were once impermeable.
Sara Sheehan: [00:14:26] In conclusion, building culture with intention. 'The Culture Code' offers valuable insights into how organizations can intentionally craft positive and productive cultures. The three key principles, building safety, sharing vulnerability, and establishing purpose, serve as a blueprint for leaders seeking to create high-performing teams by fostering an environment where employees feel safe, supported, and aligned around a common goal. Companies can unlock the full potential of their workforce and drive sustained success. Building a strong company culture is not an overnight process. It requires commitment, consistency, and, above all, a willingness to lead by example. By implementing these principles, leaders can build an environment where people feel empowered to do their best work, collaborate meaningfully, and move toward shared success. As always, subscribe so you never miss an episode. I would love to hear your thoughts in the comments.
Sara Sheehan: [00:15:50] Thank you so much for listening to today's episode on creating a positive workplace culture. The key takeaways from the podcast today include, first, build safety. Creating an inclusive environment where everyone feels safe, supported, and valued is the foundation of a positive culture. Second, share vulnerability. Foster deep trust within your team by embracing and modeling vulnerability. This encourages openness and strengthens resilience. Third, establish purpose. Define and communicate a shared mission that aligns with your company's values. A clear purpose fuels passion and commitment. Building a strong culture is an ongoing journey, but with intention, consistency, and a willingness to lead by example, it's absolutely achievable. As always, subscribe and never miss an episode. Please share your thoughts in the comments.
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Sara Sheehan focuses on change management in this episode, stressing that CEOs in today’s fast-paced business world must view change not as an exception but as an expectation. Managing the changes facing an organization, whether it be a digital transformation or a large-scale merger, is the crucial element that makes or breaks the success of the endeavour. Sara outlines why mastering change management is so vital and how to approach prioritizing that management.
Research from McKinsey & Company reveals that approximately 70% of large-scale transformation projects fail to achieve their goals and one of the primary reasons is a lack of focus on the human side of change. Effective internal change management empowers the humans of the organization to lead the change, rather than relying on external consultants. Sara explores the most critical steps in mastering change management by sharing a 9-step approach for every CEO to consider.
Speaking from expertise and knowledge, Sara names the 9 steps: 1) Establish the groundwork. 2) Secure the right resources and build the team. 3) Engage and align stakeholders. 4) Create a robust change network. 5) Assess and prep the ground. 6) Create the vision and plan messaging. 7) Mitigate business impacts. 8) Cultivate behavioral change. 9) Empower talent and execute strategy. Sara explains in detail how each step benefits an organization’s transformation and allows the CEO to build a sustainable change with minimal disruption.
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Contact Sara Sheehan | Sara Sheehan Consulting:
SaraWSheehan.comSara Sheehan on LinkedInMeet with Sara__
Transcript:
Sara Sheehan: [00:00:02] Hello, I'm Sara Sheehan and welcome to my podcast, Transformational Thinkers with Sara Sheehan. Today I would like to cover a key topic that is near and dear to my heart, and that is my course which I am pivoting to offer a self-paced option rather than attending a live cohort that is either private for one client or an open enrollment opportunity. I definitely have heard from interested participants that they would prefer a self-paced option, and as luck would have it, ACMP decided to offer the self-paced option to qualified education providers, and they allowed them to submit their course design for approval and submission for offering a self-paced option. I was approved within a week of submitting my application, and I'm in the process of setting up the self-paced option in Kajabi, along with updating my website right now.
Sara Sheehan: [00:01:32] In terms of today's message, I really want to talk about why mastering change management is so important and why, as a CEO of a leading company, you may be taking your company through a major and challenging project. Whether it's a digital transformation, a large-scale merger, or a new operating model. There's always that one crucial element that often makes or breaks the success of your endeavor, which is change management. Today's message will outline the compelling reasons CEOs need to address adoption early, and the context of a sound plan. Truly, this is a message about a strategic imperative for CEOs that are navigating major projects. In today's fast-paced business world, change is not an exception, but an expectation. Organizations that can effectively navigate change are the ones that not only survive, but thrive. Yet, as a CEO leading a company through, yes, your next major challenging project, whether it's a digital transformation, a large-scalelong-term merger or a new operating model, the one crucial element that often makes or breaks the success of the endeavor is change management. When leading a project that requires widespread adoption, the focus is not solely on implementing a solution or process. The real challenge lies in securing buy-in, shifting organizational behaviors, and building internal capabilities that will enable your team to manage change effectively long after the initial project is complete. Change management is no longer a nice-to-have competency. For organizations undergoing significant transformations, it's a strategic imperative. Today's message will outline why mastering change management is essential for CEO's overseeing major projects, and how building this capability across the organization can drive sustained success.
Sara Sheehan: [00:04:20] Why CEOs should prioritize change management. As a leader of your organization, you already understand that projects involving sweeping changes, whether cultural, technological or operational, come with really high stakes. The success or failure of these initiatives can shape your company's future in profound ways. Here's why change management needs to be at the forefront of your strategy. First, projects often fail without effective change management. The statistics are staggering from research by McKinsey & Company, that indicates approximately 70% of large-scale transformation projects fail to achieve their intended goals. One of the primary reasons, a lack of focus on the human side of change. When employees don't understand why a change is happening, resist it, or aren't equipped to manage the transition, even the best laid plans can unravel. Second, change management is a long term investment. Building change management capability in your organization is not just about the immediate project, it's about setting up your team for long term success. Effective change management ensures that your people can adapt to future changes, helping your company remain agile in a constantly evolving business landscape. Third, it protects organizational culture. Large projects often disrupt existing processes, hierarchies, and even organizational culture. Without proper management of these changes, you risk alienating employees and creating a culture of resistance. A strong change management approach ensures that transitions are smooth and aligned with your company's values. Fostering a culture that embraces rather than resists change. Fourth, building organizational capability reduces dependency on consultants. Many organizations lean heavily on external consultants to manage change during large projects. While this can provide temporary relief, it often leads to long term dependency. Instead, by investing in internal change management capabilities, you empower your own people to lead change, reducing reliance on outside support and driving down costs over time.
Sara Sheehan: [00:07:18] The critical steps of mastering change management. To effectively master change management, it's essential to break it down into manageable steps. A comprehensive approach can be boiled down to 9 key steps. In the first phase of mastering change management, it involves laying a solid foundation for your change initiatives. This is where you align your leadership team, define clear objectives, and ensure that the right resources are in place. First, establish the groundwork. Change management begins long before the first meeting or implementation. As a CEO, it's vital to create an environment where change is understood and accepted as a part of a company's DNA. This involves clarifying the strategic importance of the project and setting expectations from the top down. Second, secure the right resources and build the team. Assembling the right change management team is critical. This group should include leaders from across the organization who can champion the change within their respective departments or functions. The team must possess not just technical expertise, but also strong interpersonal and leadership skills. They need to be trusted voices who can rally their teams and communicate the benefits of the change clearly. Third, engage and align stakeholders. Stakeholder buy-in is non-negotiable. It's essential to engage both internal and external resources early in the process, ensuring that their concerns are heard and addressed. Create a stakeholder map, assess their levels of influence and interest, and ensure that your engagement strategy is built around transparent, consistent communication. Once the foundation is set, the second phase focuses on ensuring the organization is prepared and equipped to manage the changes that lie ahead. Effective communication and readiness assessments are key components of this phase.
Sara Sheehan: [00:09:43] Fourth, create a robust change network. A change network refers to a group of employees within the organization who will help facilitate change on the ground. These change agents are often not formal leaders, but are influential peers who can help ease concerns, answer questions, and foster enthusiasm. A strong change network acts as an internal support system that drives momentum. Fifth, assess and prep the ground. Before executing any major change, it's critical to assess the organization's readiness. This includes understanding how prepared your teams are, where resistance might occur, and identifying areas that may require additional support. Readiness assessments help CEOs and change leaders identify roadblocks before they derail the project. Sixth, create the vision and plan messaging. A compelling vision is a cornerstone of any successful change initiative. The key here is crafting a message that resonates with employees at all levels of the organization. The message must be clear. Why is this change happening? How does it benefit the company and the individual? As CEO, your role is not only to craft the vision, but to embody it in all communications and actions. The final phase focuses on the execution of the change management strategy in ensuring that the organizational impacts are managed effectively.
Sara Sheehan: [00:11:30] Seventh, mitigate business impacts. Unexpected business impacts will arise during execution. As CEO, you need to anticipate and address these dynamics, adjusting strategies and resources as necessary. Flexibility during execution is key. Change plans should be adaptable to ensure they remain relevant in evolving business conditions. Eighth, cultivate behavioral change. Changing organizational behaviors is often the most challenging part of the process. This is where leadership development and training come into play. Employees need to not only understand the new processes, but also be motivated to adopt new behaviors. Creating a culture that rewards adaptation and continuous learning is essential. Ninth, empower talent and execute strategy. Finally, your team's talent is your greatest asset in driving change. Empowering your workforce through training, leadership development and mentoring ensures that they have the skills and confidence to execute the strategy. Remember, change management isn't about executing a project, it's about equipping your team to manage future changes with minimal disruption.
Sara Sheehan: [00:13:03] The role of CEOs in leading change. As CEO, your role in mastering change management is not just strategic, it's deeply personal. Your employees look to you for leadership, guidance and reassurance. By embedding change management as a core capability in your organization, you ensure that your team is prepared for the current project and equipped to tackle future challenges head on. Building an internal capability in change management creates a sustainable competitive advantage. It empowers your leaders and employees to take ownership of change, reduces dependency on external consultants, and fosters a culture of resilience and adaptability. In an ever evolving business world, mastering change management is no longer optional. It's the key to staying competitive, fostering innovation and ensuring the long term success of your organization. The question is, are you ready to lead your team through the change that will shape your company's future? As always, please share your thoughts in the comments.
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Sara Sheehan’s guest in this episode is Sid Mohasseb, the "Entrepreneur Philosopher." Sid is a twice-bestselling author of two books: 'You Are Not Them: The Authentic Entrepreneur's Way,' and The Caterpillar's Edge: Evolve, Evolve Again and Thrive in Business.' He is also a university professor at both engineering and business schools. A two-time TED speaker, an advisor to Fortune 500 leaders, and an innovation thought leader who has built multiple companies and invested in many more.
Sid and Sara Sheehan explore and discuss many interesting mindset issues facing entrepreneurs today, both in business and in life in general. Using the analogy of a caterpillar's transformation into a butterfly, Sid illustrates how gradual evolution is the key to personal and professional growth—change doesn’t happen overnight. Sid also explores the employer-employee relationship and the novel approach called the "whole life balance", where understanding the reasons behind employees' decisions takes precedence over a narrow focus on outcomes. His insights highlight how the mindset shapes how we define success, approach risks, and navigate leadership challenges. Sara Sheehan and Sid also emphasize the importance of self-awareness, trust, and listening as foundations for success in all areas of life.
Sid also shares his plans to launch an academy aimed at fostering personal development and entrepreneurial growth. This new venture will feature short videos on topics like fear, resilience, and finding one's reasons, designed to provoke thought and inspire continuous improvement. Sid invites listeners to join him on this journey of transformation and to stay connected for future updates on the academy’s progress.
About Sid Mohasseb
From a very young age, Sid learned not to leave change to chance. At 7, he learned to be self-sufficient in treating the genetic blood disorder (Hemophilia) he suffered from. At 14, he learned to balance intellect and humility and published his first book of poetry. At 16, he convinced his parents that his future must be shaped in America and migrated to the US without his family. Working through engineering school, he learned that self-sufficiency begins with selflessness; to succeed one must be able to continually deliver value to friends, family and society.
Embracing his entrepreneurial talents, at 21, Sid started and exited his first company while at college. Pursuing his curiosity about the purpose of life, he explored various spiritual and philosophical schools of thought. At 25, he taught comparative Eastern and Western philosophy. Sid’s professional career was built on being a trusted advisor. At 27, he became the youngest partner of a national management consulting firm serving Fortune 500 clients.
Early in his career, Sid realized that trust, flexibility, agility and authenticity are the cornerstones of progress. During the next three decades, he supported large-scale acquisitions, and acted as the principal investor and operator in company turnarounds. As a serial entrepreneur, Sid founded and led several early-stage and hyper-growth companies from inception to acquisition. Many times over, he shouldered the responsibility for meeting payroll and wrote checks to acquire or invest in companies; learning to think both like an investor and a founder; facing, accepting, and overcoming his share of failures and successes in ideas and ventures. Along the way, Sid learned that the wounds of failures are the pathways to our next best version.
Resources discussed in this episode:
You Are Not Them: The Authentic Entrepreneur's Way by Sid MohassebThe Caterpillar’s Edge by Sid Mohasseb“From Reason to Profit” Forbes Article by Sid Mohasseb—
Contact Sara Sheehan | Sara Sheehan Consulting:
SaraWSheehan.comSara Sheehan on LinkedInMeet with SaraSid Mohasseb | The Entrepreneur Philosopher:
Website: caterpillaredge.comInstagram: SidMohassebX: SidMohassebLinkedin: Sid Mohasseb—
Transcript
Sara Sheehan: [00:00:02] Hi there. I'm Sara Sheehan and welcome to my podcast, Transformational Thinkers with Sara Sheehan. Today I'm joined by Sid Mohasseb, who is known as the Entrepreneur Philosopher. Sid is a twice bestselling author of two books: 'You Are Not Them: The Authentic Entrepreneur's Way', and The Caterpillar's Edge: Evolve, Evolve Again and Thrive in Business'. He is a university professor at both engineering and business schools. A two time TED speaker, an advisor to Fortune 500 leaders, and an innovation thought leader who has built multiple companies and invested in many more. He is a frequent contributor to Forbes, Time, Newsweek, USA Today, Fox, Independent, Foreign Policy, Globe, London School of Economics and Harvard Business Review. Thank you so much, Sid, for joining me today and being willing to invest your valuable time in a fruitful discussion.
Sid Mohasseb: [00:01:19] I'm happy to be here, and I'm happy to also thank the folks that are going to be listening to us to have invested their time in listening to both of us.
Sara Sheehan: [00:01:30] Excellent. And so, Sid, where I'd like to start today is with your book, 'You are Not Them: The Authentic Entrepreneurs Way'. Such an interesting read. One of the most important things to do in exploring the book is to create your personal entrepreneurship philosophy and have a self-aware, growth oriented mindset, like a sculptor that's shaping a great work of art in yourself. Mindset really is key in all we do in business and in life. Can you tell me, Sid, how has mindset helped you create your businesses?
Sid Mohasseb: [00:02:21] Sara, what we don't realize when we're doing what we're doing is that it is really our mindset that's directing us. We often think it may be the environment, the situation, the education, luck, but it's truly on the back. What drives us, what positions us to be successful or to accomplish things is how we think about things. What do we define as success? What do we define as satisfaction? How do we look at risk? How do we look at building an ecosystem that involves others? All of those things. How do we lead? How do we follow? How do we create trust? All of those things are part of our mindset and our approach to things. And while we're not necessarily aware of it, we are applying our mindset and the way we think and the way we look at ourselves and our future and what we can accomplish or what we cannot accomplish is involved in our progress. A few things become important. For example, if I believe that I can be LeBron James and I'm five foot three, that is a foolish belief. I cannot. I'm not tall enough, I'm not strong enough, I'm not young enough. So when we talk about mindset and how it helps us evolve is, one of the elements is being anchored in reality.
Sid Mohasseb: [00:03:58] That doesn't mean that I can't own a basketball team. It doesn't mean that I can't have enough money to bring in LeBron James to sit in my living room or play in my court back there. We can, it just doesn't mean that I can accomplish things that are not accomplishable. So the mindset that we talk about is based on an analysis of the realities of life, the probabilities of success, and our ability to evolve. I use the analogy of caterpillars a lot because they turn into butterflies. Now, if a caterpillar thinks that, first of all, it can sleep overnight and, boom, it's going to be a butterfly, it doesn't happen. Some caterpillars, it takes 14 years for them to become, in the amazon and some part of the world, usually they go through 4 or 5 stages of growth to become what it is. So if I am a caterpillar and I imagine that, first, overnight I can become a butterfly, it's a foolish thing for me to believe. Second, if I think that I can sleep and tomorrow morning I'll be a racehorse or I'll be an eagle, that's also foolish to believe. We evolve in certain ways, in mindset, in actions and structure. And that's what makes us, as you mentioned, the sculptor and the sculpture. We are both the art and the artist. And none of us are without flaw. So the idea of an artist is, sometimes you draw something, it just doesn't look good. So it's okay. We sculpt something and it's our next best version that we thought. It may not be the best version, there's always a better version. So we're always in this pursuit of creating the next best version of ourselves.
Sara Sheehan: [00:06:06] If you're willing to sharpen the saw and continue to refine that work of art.
Sid Mohasseb: [00:06:12] And that doesn't mean that the previous art was bad. This is not an admission of guilt. We are exploring. We are an artist. We draw things, we sculpt things, and as we do it, sometimes it's a little bit crooked and we fix it. And sometimes that crookedness becomes part of who we are. And that's the beauty of it. That's what makes us, us. Those are the things that makes us unique. The key is, if you are aware that it is your mindset that drives you places, now a lot more things are in your control.
Sara Sheehan: [00:06:53] Being self-aware is the first step, because if you realize how you're interacting and affecting others, you can fine tune what you're doing.
Sid Mohasseb: [00:07:07] You can, it's in your control. I use an analogy, I'll say, hey, if you take two points, any two points, and you draw a line from point A to point B, mathematically, between these two points, there are infinite points. If you draw a line, on this line there are infinite points. Now, if I move the lines and I say, okay, here's A, here's B, let's have a point C in between, there's still infinite lines between A and C, and C and B. If you take those A and B points, and you say that's the time we're born and that's the time we die, there are infinite points in between. At any point, 8 years old, 18 years old, or 80 years old, we have an equal number of instances behind us, infinite, than we have ahead of us, infinite. And each one of those allows us to make a decision to change, to evolve, to take a path. Now, our options may be different, but there are infinite options. There are infinite instances at any given time, at any age, in front of us, that we can make a choice. We are the artist that can, at any given point, change the direction of their art. You don't like classic? Go a different direction. You're completely in charge. There is nothing stopping us from being who we can be.
Sara Sheehan: [00:08:40] That is absolutely beautiful, Sid. I'd like to pivot, if we can, from talking about 'You Are Not Them', to chat about the concept of 'From Reason to Profit', which you've written about this concept, particularly in an article that I read on The Hill. There's an excerpt from the article that I would like to ground our conversation on before I pose a question, if I may. "By focusing on reasons, motivations and causes that lead to consequences, effects, and eventually profits, businesses shift their focus from controlling outcomes to aligning with world class talent and opportunities. They learn to embrace the give and take of value exchanges and understand the nuances each relationship requires. Sid also proposes that we should ditch the concept of work-life balance, and embrace whole life balance, in recognition of the great importance employees have on an enterprise's success." Sid, can you elaborate on the reason to profit framework and why whole life balance is so very important today?
Sid Mohasseb: [00:10:05] The the article you're referring to is focused on one of the five pillars, which is the employees. The other four pillars that hold up an organization, any organization, are customers, partners, investors, and society. And the fifth one is the employees. Each one of those pillars involve people, and they make decisions based on the exchange that they receive. Somebody makes an investment in a situation, it may be because they like the owner, it may be they like the cause. Maybe they like the dividends, or maybe they like that it has the opportunity of giving them ten x money. A partner, a supply chain place, works with the company because they think you pay on time, because they think that you give them enough business, because they like you, because they're the same affiliation politically as you are. They give you the stuff because your brand is important, they can put it on their sign. The same thing happens to customers. Customers actually make the decision of buying things from you. We are fooled to think, as companies, that we sell. In reality, they buy. As a company, we have zero decision. Zero. No decision at all in a purchase. So if we have no decision, we are not generating revenue. They are generating revenue. We are not generating, they are giving us revenue. So what that means is, it's the decision that they make that drives an outcome which is our revenue. So the thing to focus on, is their decision. The same thing happens with employees and it's often ignored. Companies believe that they give people a job. Here's $100,000. Here's $80,000. Here's $27.50 an hour, something. And here's your job, you clean this and that, you quote this and that, you manage these five people, there's a job description.
Sid Mohasseb: [00:12:19] The assumption is that we have made a pack, but the employee who accepts that $100,000 or $50,000, or whatever the number and job description is, in their mind, have a series of reasonings for accepting that. 'Rent is due.' 'I want to move to California and this gives me the opportunity to do that.' 'Oh, they have options, maybe the options would turn out to be something interesting.' 'This is a good company to have on my resume.' 'They have good benefits and I have a son who is sick.' They, in their mind, accept what that employment term is based on their reasonings, not based on our reasoning. They never said, 'I'm going to bring my best creativity and innovation to the table at 3:00 in the morning.' We may accept that. We may expect it as an employer, but that's not why they did it. They did it based on their own terms. The idea is that there are decisions outside of a company's control that are really driving the revenue and the profit that the company makes. They are driving the innovation within the company. They're driving the revenue and the profit that comes in. Every ask, they're driving the quality of the company because of the supply chain folks. They're driving how they can get more investments and grow the company. It is the reasons that drive our success. So the idea is, we need to focus on those reasons. When you focus on revenue and profit, you're focusing on an outcome that happens in a quarter. You're not focusing on what drives that profit or revenue. It is the cause that we have to focus on, not the effect. If the decision of revenue, if the decision of creativity, productivity is in the hands of the employee, we can measure that they were not productive at the end of a quarter, but then that's an outcome. We're not focusing on the reason that drives that outcome. And if we focus on the reasons, we would be able to do a much better job. That actually drives what our culture may be. We can't satisfy everybody's reasons. So we are able to drive, we are able to satisfy certain types of people with the certain types of reasons. This is a place good for people who look for stability and benefits. This is a place where people who are looking for massive growth through options. If we can harmonize those kind of reasons by people, we then automatically have a culture of people that think alike.
Sara Sheehan: [00:15:12] That's right. Whole life balance, for you, it sounds like you're really taking your employees' desires and wants into consideration, and you are motivating everyone to be part of the results and outcomes equation.
Sid Mohasseb: [00:15:37] Let me correct a few things, by the way. I want to go back to your pivot comment that you made, because that's a pet peeve of mine. Let's look at this. I am not motivating anybody. They are motivating themselves because of who they are. This notion that I am empowering people to do something, I am not. Who am I to have the power? They have the entire creativity power. It's in their mind. It's in their ability. I just have to, as a company, facilitate their growth. The notion that the company drives innovation, the company doesn't. There is one thing that people say, 'you have to belong to the company.' That's how the culture is built. Have a sense of belonging. You can't belong to a company, the company has to belong to a series of people. And that puts the power of creativity and innovation where it belongs, which is in the hands of the people who are creative, who at 3:00 in the morning, get up, think of things, do things, believe things, drive things, accomplish things. The notion that we believe as a company is something that's been driven to us because we look at profits at the end of the year, and Wall Street has pushed that to us. That's nonsense. If you look at all great companies, they were built on people being creative. Here's the other thing. Let's talk about this whole-life and balanced life. By saying that I have to have balance, you are saying that these are two equal part things, and you're telling me that I, at home, I am a different person, than I am at work. So you're actually promoting bipolar behavior? I've got to be this at home, and I've got to be this at work, and I'm two different people? Nonsense. I'm the same person. I'm as much creative when I'm having breakfast at home, that I could be thinking about my wife having a problem when I'm at work?
Sara Sheehan: [00:17:47] That's very fair.
Sid Mohasseb: [00:17:50] I am one person. And if you force me, and you say there's equal parts to my life, that's nonsense. What I have to do is look at it as a harmonized process. If I don't like what I'm doing, let's search for something that I belong to and I like to do it. It's like, let's have people not pass red lights when they're driving. So as opposed to having people not pass red lights and we create a culture of people not passing red lights, we're putting a cop on every corner to catch them. We're saying, hey, let's have a work-life balance. This is this and this is this because people can't harmonize. Well, let's create an environment where they can harmonize and they're much better at what they would do. We work to exchange what we do to have our kids happy. So now, let's keep the kids away, and this is what I do over here. And this is what happens after 20 years, they say, hey, I haven't seen my father because they didn't know what their father was doing, because they were balancing and separating the pieces of life. We are one person, every one of us. Part of us is work, part of us is home, part of us is our parents, part of us is our failure, part of us is accomplishments. All of that makes us, us. Not the outcome. Success isn't that I had two homes or three of these or four of these. That's a nonsensical thing that we have developed, that's been embedded in us. That success. Success is a social defined element. What is important is satisfaction. Satisfaction is when you and I are satisfied.
Sara Sheehan: [00:19:42] And it's the process.
Sid Mohasseb: [00:19:44] Success is when somebody says, do you have a PhD? Then you're successful. Do you have $1 million? $2 million? Do you live on this street? Do you have a Louis Vuitton bag? Do you have a Mercedes Benz? Then they define your success. They are defining your success. But satisfaction is what you feel, what you create, what you build.
Sara Sheehan: [00:20:03] So you are focusing on the process by which people are engaging, in being creative, and not compartmentalizing that, and looking at your entire life as a canvas and trying to create the scenario where the any employee can be their most productive because they choose to, and the company then reaps benefits from them.
Sid Mohasseb: [00:20:44] They choose to be productive. It's not mandatory. It's not, I've chosen. We've created. We've hired based on their reason. And yeah, we can't hire anybody and everybody because then we don't have a culture. A culture is built after a group of people come together that are like-minded, and when they're like-minded they have this cohesiveness and they create things and they build things. So we can't get a bunch of people because we put a statement on top of the door, or the CEO emailed something, or we have a 4th of July barbecue that makes us cohesive and have the same vision, mission and culture. It doesn't work. It's nonsensical change management stuff.
Sara Sheehan: [00:21:34] I understand where you're headed, though. You're headed in a direction that no one is really talking about this from. That when you're thinking about the whole-life and you're thinking about what your self-aware, growth oriented mindset is, you're going to be a much more productive person in general. And so I think that's a very deep and valuable lesson learned.
Sid Mohasseb: [00:22:08] And you think that's an unreasonable place to go?
Sara Sheehan: [00:22:11] No, I don't. I think it's a great place to go.
Sid Mohasseb: [00:22:14] It is what we're built for.
Sara Sheehan: [00:22:16] It's a great place to go. And I think with having a growth oriented mindset in general is the only way I can manage life, because that's the way I think. I always want to be improving and growing.
Sid Mohasseb: [00:22:39] And sometimes we make mistakes. Because whatever we do helps in our growth. It doesn't mean that whatever we do, the outcome is better than what we had before. It may not. As an artist, I put a little yellow over here and I thought it would be good, but it's not good. Okay, so I change it. I mix it up with red and I get blue. It's okay. We're not expected to have created perfection every time.
Sara Sheehan: [00:23:09] That's right.
Sid Mohasseb: [00:23:11] Now, there's one thing you mentioned. There is a section in the book that you mentioned, that deals with this notion of pivoting. You said 'let's pivot to a different discussion.' A lot of people use pivot in their businesses and companies and what they do. I am super against pivoting. Let me explain. Pivot is when you hit a dead end, and then you make a right turn or a left turn. We have to be a dancer. That is, a dancer plays with the rhythm of the music, sometimes choreographed, sometimes improvised. If you look at the timing of change, you don't wait until you hit a block and then you pivot. If you're reading the market, you don't let your ego drive you. By the time you are at the end of the road and have to pivot, your resources are depleted. Your time to market has been changed. The fact that you are pivoting means that you are bull headed, you're not accepting, you're not listening. You don't see the timing of the market, you don't see the value. You're just saying, it's either me or death. If you don't fear, that means you're not really evolving. If you're not nervous, you're doing exactly what-and if you say, I am fearless, I don't have any fear in doing this, you're ignoring the dangers ahead, and that's not a good thing. That's being bullheaded, that is nonsensical. Oh, he is fearless, you should have no fear. No, you should have fear. You just should learn how to deal with it. Because fear is signals that there is something, not necessarily, and I need to know, okay, this is a winding road. There's dangers and I should be aware of it, be fearful of it, and then push through it.
Sara Sheehan: [00:25:18] And so, Sid, you're speaking to developing courage through fear by listening and being self-aware. That's beautiful. I think that we all need to listen more and be self-aware so that we can make great choices.
Sid Mohasseb: [00:25:41] Listening is, I think, key. And what I found, and I tell this to my wife, she says, oh, there you go again. What I found is, most people don't listen. They hear, they don't listen. They're planning on their response. Here's the thing, this is a fact. If you don't listen, not to me, to everything and everybody. To the guy who's pumping the gas, to the guy who's at the gas station 7-Eleven store, to your teachers, to your boss, to your colleagues. If you're not listening, you are ignoring the knowledge that could be added to you, some things. So whatever decision you make next is compromised because it is the knowledge that you have that improves your decision. By not listening, you are simply compromising your future decisions because you have less than enough knowledge. You are making a decision based on a historical set of knowledge that you had a year ago or two years ago, not what happened today.
Sara Sheehan: [00:26:56] Yes, and I think we have a major issue on listening. There are a lot of people that are not listening, and there are a lot of people that don't know how to take new information and assimilate it into their next best action.
Sid Mohasseb: [00:27:18] And it's partly a culture of how-to, it's a culture of combativeness. It's a culture of embedding in the past, it's the culture of 'my way or the highway'. It's this notion that an entrepreneur or a leader should be strong and bullheaded. It's a combination of things that has led us to not be receptive, not accepting. The article you refer to on Hill, originally when it came out, at 8:00 in the morning, I believe California time or something like that, 5:00 California time, 8:00 eastern time. I looked at it because I get these Google notices that you've been published somewhere. So I get it, and I clicked on it, and I went there. There's 352 comments on it in three hours.
Sara Sheehan: [00:28:12] That's impressive.
Sid Mohasseb: [00:28:14] I said, ooh, look at me. People actually care. And then I read the comments. Only out of the 350 comments, only two people had actually read the article. Only two. The rest of them were on this gobbledygook conversation. They've read the title and they've gone on to their own argument. They didn't even read what I wrote.
Sara Sheehan: [00:28:39] That just proves exactly what I said to a tee, Sid. Let's talk a little bit about what lessons you've learned in building and scaling your four businesses.
Sid Mohasseb: [00:28:54] Lessons that I've learned, I think some of them, is quite obvious in the way I think. Listening is important. Trust is hugely important. Trust is earned, and there is a three-way trust. First, I have to trust in myself, then I have to trust in my employees, then they would give me their trust. I can't expect their trust before I give them my trust. When you do that, that creates a compounding effect of benefits. That trust leads you to, for people to do things, to accomplish things, for investors to believe in you, for markets to believe in you. The self-trust goes back to having being grounded in what reality is. There's another element which is the element of, I have learned that certainty is a foolish game. There is no certainty, everything is probabilistic. Certainty does not exist. If you go to companies, they have a 'here's a best case and worst case.' No, there's a shade of gray in between. And it has to do with what we do and the decisions we make. Life is probabilistic. The more I understand the probabilities and the options, the better my decisions would be. So don't look at life as a probabilistic, as a certain outcome driven. I can't sit here with the knowledge that-let's do this. A lot of people have these vision boards, and they put that together when they're 24 years old or 18 or 30. I don't trust the 18 year old of me to be creating a vision for me. That 18 year old was naive.
Sara Sheehan: [00:30:50] Yes, you definitely grow and change quite a bit over time.
Sid Mohasseb: [00:30:54] So the thing that I believe, the knowledge that I had at a certain point, I have the right to change my mind. At 18 I wanted to be a gold medalist or whatever, that was foolish. Now I know I can't, and that's not a failure. That's not changing my goal. That's just adjusting based on what I see as a better alternative. Now, some people stick to that and they say it's either that or nothing, and if I don't do it, it's failure. No, it's not failure.
Sara Sheehan: [00:31:26] And that definitely mirrors your thoughts about self-awareness, growth oriented mindset, you're continuing to refine what that vision is for your life based on your goals and aspirations at that time.
Sid Mohasseb: [00:31:43] And you have the ability and every right to change your goals. Now, there is there is something, though. I know your program is about transformational minds. People confuse transformation, as I mentioned like the caterpillar and the butterfly, with instantaneous achievement. Transformation takes time. It's assumed that transformation is somehow outside of some level that we can think, outside of the box. The box is an imaginary line you and I create. There is no box. Where is the box? The box is wherever I'm afraid of thinking about something, then I call it the box because I don't want to say, oh, think outside of the box. Which box? Who drew this box? There is no box. It's an imaginary line that we have to go above it or below it. I've said about, you're able to change your vision, you're able to change your goals, but I want to emphasize on this. A caterpillar stays the course over stages and stages of growth and change in order to become a butterfly. If you become fascinated by change and every shiny new object that comes to you, you will never transform into the next being because you're not committed to the path. If you plant a seed, you have to water the seed and you have to give it the fertilization that it needs, and you have to make sure it gets enough sun to grow, and you have to take care of it. We're not saying that this is your only flower that you can grow. You can grow other flowers. But if you leave this one and all of a sudden are fascinated by some other thing, this will die.
Sara Sheehan: [00:33:58] And so, Sid, you're saying that we all need to make sure that we're continuing on the right path so that we transform the way we're supposed to.
Sid Mohasseb: [00:34:11] The way we want to. In the interest of change, you can't be tempted by the devil that the change offers you. The devil is the shiny new object. There's always a lot of things to do. Without change, there wouldn't be any options. Change provides you infinite options. And hey, if there wasn't change, everything would be so boring, would be exactly the same, there wouldn't be any progress. So change provides you with this ability to choose between options. But if you get dazed and confused with the devil that the change offers you, which is all these shiny new objects, and you jump from this thing to that thing, to that thing, to that thing because you think you're transforming, you're just confusing yourself.
Sara Sheehan: [00:34:57] Right, and you're not actually making progress.
Sid Mohasseb: [00:35:01] And you're actually not making progress. And you say, well, I saw an opportunity, I jumped on it. I see entrepreneurs today, they're doing this, oh, there's a better thing over there. They go buy this software and before it produces anything there is a better software. So they abandoned this one and go to the next one and then, oh, there's a better way of doing this. Oh, I don't know why we don't make any progress, these people are idiots. No, the people are not idiots. We're just changing for the sake of change. Not for the sake of creating the next best version of ourselves.
Sara Sheehan: [00:35:35] And that is a very valuable point. We need to keep our eye on the ball so that we are transforming and growing each and every day. And so, Sid, what big goals and aspirations are you working on accomplishing right now?
Sid Mohasseb: [00:35:50] Big goals and aspirations. I'm going to tell you something that, frankly, it's been between me and a couple of a couple of people, including my wife, brainstorming. We'll get there. I'm thinking about creating what I call an Academy, where we would have a series of maybe 4 or 5 minute videos that belong to a collection. A collection maybe around fear, around resilience, around reasons, and build a community of members and people. Could be students, could be people who are in startup mode or could be managers and so forth. One thing that you have to understand is my view of entrepreneurship. I believe we are all entrepreneurs and it is in our genes. 500,000 years ago, a gene was developed in us to thrive. Not survive, thrive. To look for something better. The definition of an entrepreneur is someone who has something and likes to exchange it with something of higher value, has something, and wants to exchange it with something of higher value, knowing that there is risk. Now, the 'something' is not defined. It could be your ideas, it could be your time, it could be a product, it could be a service, it could be anything. And what you exchange is of higher value, the higher value is also your decision. Are you curing cancer? Are you solving poverty? Or you want to be Elon Musk and have a lot of money? That's your choice, and knowing that there is a risk. With that mentality, we are all entrepreneurs, wherever we are. If you have a job somewhere, you're an entrepreneur. Because you want to get a better job, you want to excel, you want to exchange what you have with something better. Or, you get that $22, $27 or $127 an hour and you take it home and you take your kids to Disneyland, and you're exchanging your time for something of higher value, which is the happiness of your kids.
Sara Sheehan: [00:38:06] I think that could be of tremendous value. You're talking about an academy that essentially would provide key learning opportunities around personal development and transformation. That's amazing.
Sid Mohasseb: [00:38:25] And it's quick. It's examples, just like what we're talking about in terms of, let's get to the roots. What is this nonsense about big words and making life complicated to prove to people that you're smart and all this stuff. Life is pretty simple if you think about simple ways of approaching it. Trust is trust. We all know what it is. Listening is easy.
Sara Sheehan: [00:38:53] It is the hard stuff, though, too. It's easy but it's hard, too.
Sid Mohasseb: [00:39:01] It is hard, but they are not hard ideas or concepts.
Sara Sheehan: [00:39:04] No, they are not. It's hard for people to practice them, I think. I think that's where the struggle might be.
Sid Mohasseb: [00:39:13] The other thing that I've been thinking about, this academy thing, is we are filled with ideas and things that have to do with how-tos. We are bombarded with how to do this and how to do that. Life is like Ikea, you go buy a bookcase and then they say how to put screw number 17 into hole number 72. That's not life. Life is filled with all sorts of different things. So my notion of this is, this is not a how-to thing. I just want to provoke you, you can find the how-tos.
Sara Sheehan: [00:39:50] You're trying to get people to refine the way they think, and that is priceless because I don't think enough people are doing that in the world.
Sid Mohasseb: [00:40:04] That's the thing. And if in your audience anybody is interested, drop me an email when we get it up and running. It would be in a few months, it's not tomorrow. If I don't derail off of it, it would happen and I'd be happy to include them in the process.
Sara Sheehan: [00:40:20] Fantastic, Sid. Maybe we can stay in touch about how things are going and maybe I could provide an update to my audience about your academy and how they might be able to explore it. Sid, can you tell me what being a transformational thinker means to you?
Sid Mohasseb: [00:40:42] I think we talked about it a little before. Transformational thinker is somebody who is not satisfied with their past version. They were satisfied, but they believe that there is more satisfaction in evolving that and being more satisfied. I'm saying, they are not unhappy with who they were before because they built it. Remember, every version that we build, it's our art. Every artist loves his or her own art. We make it, so we love it. But we also know that there is more in us. So a transformational thinker believes that there is more in us. More to build, more to create, more to give.
Sara Sheehan: [00:41:35] That is beautiful. There is more to become, for sure.
Sid Mohasseb: [00:41:44] There is more to become.
Sara Sheehan: [00:41:45] That is so beautiful, Sid. And so, Sid, how would our listeners find you?
Sid Mohasseb: [00:41:52] My name is Sid Mohasseb, and my email is [email protected]. Very simple. And they can find, as you mentioned, I have lots and lots of articles all over the place. Yes, you can blame that I am old and opinionated, I do express my opinions in a lot of different places and it's easy to find me if you Google me.
Sara Sheehan: [00:42:22] Well, I can't thank you enough for your time today and illuminating the concept of, maybe there's more work that we have to do on ourselves, and we need to continue to think about where our mindset is and how we can improve it each and every day. Thank you so much.
Sid Mohasseb: [00:42:45] Great to be with you, thank you.
Sara Sheehan: [00:42:47] Thank you so much for listening to today's episode of Transformational Thinkers with Sara Sheehan. Today we were joined by the visionary Sid Mohasseb, who's known as the entrepreneur philosopher, and brings his vast experience as a best selling author, TED speaker, professor, and advisor to Fortune 500 leaders. Key takeaways from our discussion today include: the crucial role of mindset in defining success and satisfaction, the power of self-awareness and continuous evolution, embracing a whole-life balance over the traditional work life dichotomy, and finally viewing life as an artist's canvas filled with infinite possibilities. Whether you're a seasoned entrepreneur or looking to ignite your inner innovator, this episode is packed with insights to inspire and challenge your thinking. As always, please subscribe and never miss an episode, and I'd love to hear your thoughts in the comments.
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Sara Sheehan’s guest in this episode is CEO of Diversity in Luxury, Luxury Weekly News Podcast and Elizabeth's Cake Emporium, Elizabeth Solaru. Elizabeth is a luxury business consultant, author, and a world-renowned cake artist. Her clientele is high-end and royal now but she didn’t start in luxury, she started as a microbiologist and headhunter. Sara Sheehan learns all about how Elizabeth started her companies, found such wealthy clients, and the advice she offers in her new book, The LUXPreneur.
While working as a headhunter, Elizabeth relieved stress by reconnecting with her early love of baking and indulging in cake-making as a side hustle. When business in London collapsed in 2008, she decided to launch her luxury cake business instead of going back to headhunting. It was through cold-calling that she connected with a planner who worked for the late Queen Elizabeth, and the Queen became Elizabeth’s first high-end order. How Elizabeth built from that first order and scaled out into celebrities, other royals, and high-end brands, is her story of hard work, determination, and taking the lessons learned along the way to heart.
Sara Sheehan and Elizabeth Solaru discuss creative ways to scale businesses and why every entrepreneur needs a financial planner they trust deeply. Elizabeth shares the five pillars of building a business brand that she writes extensively about in her book: storytelling, perception, customer experience, having an incredible product, and vision. She speaks on the importance of diversity, specifically diversity in luxury, and how writing her book has prompted her to dream about something big to do with books in the future. Sara Sheehan’s talk with Elizabeth Solaru is a fascinating glimpse into how luxury brands work, how to reach them, and practical advice that business owners need to know.
About Elizabeth Solaru:
Elizabeth started her first multi-award winning business with a secondhand mixer and £40 in the bank. Over the years, through creativity and sheer hard work, she built it up into a world-renowned business brand called ELIZABETH'S CAKE EMPORIUM.
She serves Ultra High Networth Individuals (UHNWI) and royal families in a world of discretion, confidentiality, press embargos, and Non-Disclosure Agreements (NDAs).
Elizabeth has also collaborated with many luxury brands including Harrods, Oscar de la Renta, and Fendi. She has been called a pioneer in the industry, and her work has appeared in Vogue, Tatler, HELLO!, Martha Stewart, Wedluxe, and The Telegraph.
There have also been personal appearances on the BBC, Sky Living’s “Who’d be a Billionaire” and she has consulted on films such as Sony Columbia’s “My Best Friend’s Wedding.”
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Contact Sara Sheehan | Sara Sheehan Consulting:
SaraWSheehan.comSara Sheehan on LinkedInMeet with SaraContact Elizabeth Solaru:
Website: ElizabethSolaru.comWebsite: LuxuryBusinessEmporium.comElizabeth Solaru on LinkedIn“The LUXPreneur: How to start and build a successful luxury brand” by Elizabeth Solaru__
Transcript
Sara Sheehan: [00:00:02] Hi there, I'm Sara Sheehan and welcome to my podcast, Transformational Thinkers with Sara Sheehan. Today I'm joined by Elizabeth Solaru, CEO of Diversity in Luxury. Luxury Weekly News Podcast and Elizabeth's Cake Emporium. Everything about Elizabeth's expertise focuses on scaling businesses for the luxury market. She is an award-winning luxury business consultant, author, and world-renowned cake artist. As an expert microbiologist and headhunter, she began her luxury business journey as a celebrated cake artist, earning international acclaim for innovative designs and practical craftsmanship. Her clientele includes ultra-high-net-worth individuals and royalty. Her creative talent and business acumen led to a successful transition into luxury consulting, where she now advises brands on how to navigate the complexities of the luxury market. Her latest book, 'The Luxpreneur: How to Start and Build a Successful Luxury Brand' has been described as a blueprint for a luxury business and a must-read for those interested in working in the luxury industry. Elizabeth, I am so glad to welcome you to my podcast today.
Elizabeth Solaru: [00:01:32] Thank you Sara. I'm really excited to be here.
Sara Sheehan: [00:01:36] Excellent, excellent. And so, Elizabeth, you have a really interesting focus, and I love the cake part as well. I want to make sure I comment on that because that is such a fine art in today's world. First of all, Elizabeth, I would like to hear a little bit about your backstory and what led you to where you are today.
Elizabeth Solaru: [00:02:05] Thank you, Sara. A little bit about me, I'm an ex-microbiologist, and I then went on to become a headhunter in the city, I remember working as a headhunter and then 18-hour days, very stressful. So to relieve stress, I started baking again. I'd always baked as a child, but I kind of dropped it over the years. So I started baking again, and my colleagues would make amazing comments about my cakes. And it was just something I did as a side hustle, but the one thing I did do though is, I remember I'd save up my money and come on holiday to America. One of the best chocolate schools is actually in Florida and run by Ewald Notter, and he used to do so many classes, and I'll come and I'll just take classes, take classes. So that went on for a while. And then 2008, the City of London kind of collapsed. We know what happened around the world. And then I lost my job and I got to a milestone birthday, and I said to myself, if I don't do it now, I'll never do it. So I decided to set up my cake company, and in order to get clients, I reverted back to what I usually did when I was a headhunter, which was make 100 cold calls a week. So I took the Yellow Pages, in those days Google wasn't much of a thing. So I took the yellow pages, and then I called every planner in the yellow pages and one particular planner, the one that changed my life and moved me into the luxury business, happened to be the Queen's cousin. So that's the late Queen Elizabeth. It was her cousin.
Elizabeth Solaru: [00:03:55] Her name was also Elizabeth, and I'm an Elizabeth. So I just said to her, I'm going to be in your area in the next few days, I'm happy to drop some samples. I dropped the samples and before I even got home, I got a call back to say, Lady Elizabeth would like to speak with you. And that's how I got my first high-end order. So again, I did cakes for many years. I was able to do cakes for ultra-high net worth celebrities, flown out around the world. And then the pandemic hit. And when the pandemic hit, over the years, I've been asked to speak at several conferences and I just talk about the luxury world because those were my clients, and I assumed that everyone knew what I knew. And then during the pandemic, I gave so many talks online, and that kind of started the journey into becoming a luxury business consultant because many companies, especially small businesses, they wanted to know what to do. And I started giving advice and that began the other stage of my journey.
Sara Sheehan: [00:05:09] That is so very exciting. I love, love, love that your experience started with a royal client. That is just fabulous. Isn't that exciting? I can only imagine how exciting that day was.
Elizabeth Solaru: [00:05:29] Oh, absolutely. And thankfully I didn't realize the implications right away. Thankfully, that came gradually because it wasn't just the fact that she was a royal connection, it was the kind of person she was. She was extremely kind. She was one of the most hard-working women because she was the very first official party planner in the UK. She started her business in the 60s organizing debutante balls, and she was a person of integrity. And she gave me this amazing testimonial, which she didn't have to, but it was a written testimonial. And she said to me, Elizabeth, you can use this in all your marketing. And that generosity, even nowadays is very rare. So I owe her a lot.
Sara Sheehan: [00:06:23] Yes. You cannot overestimate or underestimate the value of a wonderful testimonial and quote for sure. Having that kind of social proof absolutely propels business and is wonderful to have in marketing. And so, Elizabeth, share with me what lessons have you learned from building and scaling your business?
Elizabeth Solaru: [00:06:49] I've learned so many lessons, in particular from failure. The first lesson that I learned was not going into things blind. So you need to get all your information together. You need to have what I call scenario planning. And also, another lesson I learned is that things take twice as long as you want them to take. You project 6 months, but the 6 months could be 18 months because there's always going to be bumps in the road, unforeseen problems. Another lesson I learned is to get the right mentors in place. So people who've done it before, or people who are great at observing the pitfalls so they warn you ahead of time, you're likely to run into x, y, z. And because you're likely to run into x, y, z, I will suggest you do this. Such people are very rare. Also, another lesson I learned is you will run out of money at some point. So you need to start on the premise of having no money. So you get creative in ways in which you can scale and also make your financial person, your financial planner, they need to be your best friend. Because they are the ones who are going to, when you're scenario planning, they're the ones who would bring in that dose of reality. So those are some, I mean, I've learned so many lessons, but those are a few of the lessons.
Sara Sheehan: [00:08:23] Those are tremendous lessons. And the financial side, that one is a really great point. Because cash flow is one of those things, working capital actually makes or breaks many businesses. And so getting a strategic plan so that you can have working capital and be able to manage your own personal life in the meantime, this is absolutely huge. So I thank you so much for bringing that up. Can you share with us a little bit, Elizabeth, what the insight is on the blueprint for developing a luxury business that you've outlined in your book, 'The Luxpreneur'.
Elizabeth Solaru: [00:09:13] Thank you so much for that question. Because people, they often think, okay, what's the secret sauce to setting up a luxury brand? And what's the difference between an ordinary brand and a luxury brand? So in my book, I talk about five pillars. There are many pillars, but I bring out the best five and, putting money aside, the five for me are storytelling, perception, customer experience, having an incredible product. Now, the product doesn't have to be the best, but it's got to be good. And then the fifth one is around vision and longevity. You want to build something to last. You are not building based on a trend or based on the latest social media fads that are out there. Because if we look at the brands that have lasted and come through in terms of test of time, they were started, again, I say this as a one man band for the most part, one man businesses, one woman businesses, but they have lasted through the ages because of the vision. And there was always something in the DNA around storytelling and around changing something. So there was a little bit of innovation. If we take somebody like Coco Chanel, she, again, a little, little black dress. Little black suit. She hated the frou frou fashions. So she took a very humble material, a Jersey tweed, very humble, very practical material and then she elevated. If we take somebody like Louis Vuitton who was so poor, he walked barefoot all the way from his village to Paris, he noticed, again, it could be something you notice in your business or in the industry, he noticed that trunks that were built in those times, you couldn't stack them. So he made trunks stackable. So again, there's always something in the DNA. And for me, I always say it starts with you as a person.
Elizabeth Solaru: [00:11:29] Apart from those five pillars, I've spoken about the different archetypes of people that set up luxury brands. For example, if you are a visionary, what kind of people do you need around you to support you, to work with you? If you are an artisan, I'm a bit of an artisan, and if I was left to my devices, all I would do is create cakes and not keep an eye on cost and not care about marketing. But these are things I've had to learn to either do myself, or have people around me who can keep an eye on the money, who can keep an eye on the right marketing and the right image projection. So those are some of the things that I feel are the basis of building a luxury brand. The last thing for me is around the client. The one thing that people don't talk about often in the luxury industry is that there are different types of luxury clients. To give you an example, I use this example a lot because it's a famous meme. You have King Charles, our current king, and you have Ozzy Osbourne. Both born in the same year, a month apart. They've both been married twice and they both live in a castle, and they're both rich white men. Would you sell to them the same? No, you wouldn't. Probably not, because they are different luxury buyer archetypes. They're completely different. And those are some of the things I break down really, really well in my book, 'The Luxpreneur'.
Sara Sheehan: [00:13:15] That is fascinating. I love your five pillars of storytelling perception, customer experience, having an incredible product and vision, and longevity. Those are all really critical things, and I love that you're using things that make a difference in propelling any business in a special light for the luxury market. So I feel like anyone could learn something from your book and what you're doing. Elizabeth, what are some of your big goals and aspirations that you're working on now?
Elizabeth Solaru: [00:13:56] That's a great question. Right now my book is my baby. So once that's released, I'm doing a book tour, et cetera, et cetera. But I've got a follow-up book. The follow-up book for me is to focus more on the luxury client. And with that, I'm hoping to involve a behavioral psychologist. I'm hoping to involve a couple of high end clients who can, again, there's nothing quite convincing like first-hand testimony, etc. So I'm thinking of a follow up to my book. And then, I'm also thinking of a possible program around my book, because usually when people do programs on luxury clients, it's always one-dimensional. It's not rounded. And people don't look at the different types of luxury clients, so they tend to look at celebrities. But I can tell you this, a lot of my clients could possibly own-there could be a farmer back in the sticks to someone who is an aspirational or to someone who is a member of the royal family, and they are completely different. So that rounded experience that, multi-dimensional personalities are often missing from the narrative. And another big thing that I'm working on is diversity in the luxury sector. And I don't mean diversity the way people talk about diversity. I'm talking about cultural diversity.
Elizabeth Solaru: [00:15:38] So, for example, there are differences in attitude between North America and South America. In the United States, you've got your small town values, you've got your big city values. So that for me is diversity. The way I see it, there is something for me around, because right now, the luxury industry, the last year has been a bit rocky for the industry. And we need new innovation, we need new ideas, and quite frankly, we need to treat our clients better. You hear of brands where, in order to preserve exclusivity, there are some practices that are not quite great for the look of the industry, for lack of a better word. You have people on a waiting list. Being on a waiting list is not bad, but then you hear these stories of, you've got to buy certain things before you're allowed to buy that thing. I go to a lot of luxury business forums, and if you want to improve as a business, I would suggest you bite the bullet and you go to these forums and you see what people are saying about your brand. Also, for me, the Diversity in Luxury Awards that I hold every year, we celebrate people in the luxury industry who are making a difference. So to give you an example, Chanel, when the CEO of Chanel was appointed a couple of years ago, the first thing she did was increase the fund. They have a fund for the education of girls, and the fund is about €20 million. She increased that from €20 million a year to €100 million. And that was her first-I mean, imagine that. Your first action as a CEO. That's huge. So to me, there's quite a number of luxury brands doing similar things, but nobody talks about it. I don't know what it is about luxury brands, but they're doing so much good, but they're keeping it under wraps. If you take Cartier for example, they do galas and dinners for women in particular, women in shelters. But again, nobody talks about that. So those are some of the positive things that I would love to highlight moving forward.
Sara Sheehan: [00:18:11] I think that's a wonderful thing to do and to show where people are giving back in the community. That is so incredibly valuable. And I really do appreciate the specificity by which that you're sharing, hey, this is not just DEI, as everyone explains it today. It's really about cultural differences globally, and this is such a powerful conversation. Having been involved with many global outsourcing engagements, where you're taking part of someone's business and giving it to a service provider somewhere else in the world, we have to be able to work together to make it work long-term. So cultural diversity and being able to navigate those relationships, that is going to add tremendous value in the business world, for sure. So thank you so much for all that you're doing there. What does being a transformational thinker mean to you, Elizabeth?
Elizabeth Solaru: [00:19:26] I think part of my last answer actually, it fits really well with this question. So for me it's about, first of all, transforming my own thinking before I can then put that onto a whole industry. It's about, for me anyway, it's about looking at things differently and also looking for the links, because people say one thing about me, that I'm able to link random things together. I don't know if that's true or not, but I think my background as a scientist and then, me being a bit of an artist, you can take what's seemingly random patterns and then put them together. So it's about looking at your industry differently, looking at your business differently. And I do something I call an audit. So I do an audit of my thinking, and for that I may go off and do something that looks completely random. So to give you an example, this was way before it was a thing, I remember going off and doing a course in coding. It was C, the language is C. I was the only girl in a room full of almost 50 boys. I didn't really understand much, but I just wanted to challenge my own thinking. Because in those days, having a personal PC was the dream. And I was like, I wanted to know what was inside the PC.
Sara Sheehan: [00:20:56] Right. How did it work?
Elizabeth Solaru: [00:20:58] How does it work? So again, it's about putting yourself in what may seem to be uncomfortable, unconventional situations to challenge your own thinking and the way you view the world. To some people it could be travel, for example. And you notice that, in a particular market, there's a way they stack things, or there's a way they do things. Just noticing that and thinking, okay, how can we bring this into our world? How can we learn from what they're doing? So those are some of the things that I feel makes me a transformational thinker. Because I always assume that, okay, the way I look at things is normal, but to some people that's not normal. And that gets me excited because I want to see the world how they see the world from their perspective. And you don't necessarily have to agree. You spoke early on about, if you're taking a business, you're trying to outsource and you're trying to work with different cultures. You don't necessarily have to agree with certain things, but there is a way of working that can transform your mind and their mind. So that, to me, is what a transformational thinker is.
Sara Sheehan: [00:22:20] That is fabulous. I love how you combined addressing mindset and growth all at the same time. That is very powerful, Elizabeth. Very, very powerful. What a fascinating conversation we've had today. Elizabeth, is there anything else that you're working on that you would like to share with us?
Elizabeth Solaru: [00:22:47] I would love, again, this is a dream. I'm working on something around, and it all ties in, I promise you. I'm working on something around the business of books because I'm a big, big reader. I love books, and one of my heroes is Dolly Parton because of what she's doing with libraries. She has given millions of books away, and she actually pays everyone who graduates high school from her hometown. I think that is tremendous. So I'm doing something around building a knowledge bank, building knowledge that can transform minds, building capacity. Because as human beings, sometimes we forget that a lot of what we do is learned. A lot of what we do is conditioning or to be conditioned right. To be conditioned the right way, you need the knowledge and you need the right kind of knowledge. So for me I want to do something, again, around knowledge bank, around books, around economic inclusion. Because right now the model of the book industry is, you either independently publish or you belong to a publishing house. But with the publishing houses, I know a lot of people say, the model is out there, but for me, look at it this way. I see the model, the publishing houses can only take on so many people. They can only take on so many new. So there's a lot of really good books slipping through the drains. So there is something there around, how can we then reconcile the seemingly opposed industries around self-publishing versus traditional publishing? And both have their pros and cons. So there's something around that in mind. Because next year, every year we have the London Book Fair, and I'm trying to engineer conversations around that.
Sara Sheehan: [00:25:00] That is fascinating, and I will be very interested to see what develops for you in this space, because it's really clear that you want to leave a legacy of giving back and create that circle, that positive circle of repeating in society where you're helping someone else do something and achieve something good, and then they help in return. And that is so incredibly moving to me. When is the London Book Fair? Just so I know from a timescale reference.
Elizabeth Solaru: [00:25:41] It's March next year. It's early March. I'll check the dates again. I'm not sure if it's before or after International Women's Day, because International Women's Day is around the 8th, and I know the London Book Fair tends to fall around that.
Sara Sheehan: [00:25:55] Okay, excellent. You've got about six months. That's interesting. That is really interesting. Just one point, one question. Do you have a formal publisher relationship for your book?
Elizabeth Solaru: [00:26:11] No, I don't. It's something I'm doing independently. I'm working with a company who published my first book, which was quite a seller. It was a best seller because it was a book about cakes.but I but I did a limited run of that particular book because it was meant to celebrate ten years of me making cakes so I thought we'd do a book. So that was almost like a coffee book/baking book, as it were. But this one is a business book, and it's completely different. And my experience writing it was also different.
Sara Sheehan: [00:26:48] I'm sure it was very different. Very interesting and exciting. Six months is a really good amount of time to be able to do something innovative and transformational. So I'll be very excited to see what comes forward for you in early spring of next year.
Elizabeth Solaru: [00:27:08] Thank you.
Sara Sheehan: [00:27:09] Absolutely, absolutely. And so, Elizabeth, how would our listeners find you?
Elizabeth Solaru: [00:27:16] The best place to find me is on LinkedIn. I've been on LinkedIn for, oh my gosh, a decade and a bit. And then obviously when Instagram was 'oh yay', we all went on to it. But now, back on LinkedIn enjoying my people on LinkedIn. So just type in 'Elizabeth Solaru luxury' and I will pop up. And that's the best way to reach me. And then my book will also be on Amazon, 'The Luxpreneur: How to Start and Build a Successful Luxury Brand', that will be on Amazon as well. So yeah, that's how to find me.
Sara Sheehan: [00:27:55] Excellent. And when do you expect the book to be on Amazon?
Elizabeth Solaru: [00:27:59] It's going on Amazon next week.
Sara Sheehan: [00:28:01] Excellent. Perfect. This is wonderful timing.
Elizabeth Solaru: [00:28:06] It's going on next week because, initially we would have done a preorder, but I just thought, you know what? I'm going to be like Dolly Parton. Just drop my project because she doesn't announce, she doesn't do this long lead. She just drops it. So I'm like, okay, what would Dolly do?
Sara Sheehan: [00:28:26] That is amazing. And so that means that I will probably be able to grab the link to your book and include it in the show notes.
Elizabeth Solaru: [00:28:37] Yes, I will send it to you for sure.
Sara Sheehan: [00:28:38] Excellent. Wonderful. Well, I can't thank you enough for your time today. I think you are an amazing story of resilience and creativity and constantly sharpening the saw, which we all need to do so that we're always growing. And it is very telling that, having a growth mindset, it definitely is a situation where growth and comfort do not coexist.
Elizabeth Solaru: [00:29:11] That is incredibly, beautifully said.
Sara Sheehan: [00:29:19] But if we are putting ourselves in the position to constantly sharpen the saw, really great and unexpected things might come our way.
Elizabeth Solaru: [00:29:31] Absolutely.
Sara Sheehan: [00:29:32] Excellent. Well, thank you so much for your time today, Elizabeth. And I look forward to hearing great things about your book and the wonderful new opportunities that you're bringing to light in your business.
Elizabeth Solaru: [00:29:49] Thank you so much, Sara. I've really enjoyed this interview. You've been such a gracious host. Thank you so much. I appreciate you.
Sara Sheehan: [00:29:57] Absolutely.
Sara Sheehan: [00:29:58] Thank you so much for listening to today's episode of Transformational Thinkers with Sara Sheehan. My conversation with Elizabeth Solaru is filled with wonderful lessons learned that I want to make sure that I'm highlighting in my takeaways. From Elizabeth's book, 'The Luxpreneur: How to Start and Build a Successful Luxury Brand', there are five big pillars in building a luxury brand. Starting with storytelling, perception in the market, the customer experience, having an incredible product, and finally, vision and longevity. Elizabeth's focus on helping people build their business and providing a blueprint for a successful luxury business really sets herself apart in the marketplace, and I'm really, really excited to share this episode with all of our listeners. As always, please subscribe and never miss an episode.
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Sara Sheehan’s guest in this episode is Alan Lazaros, Business Coach, Consultant, Trainer, and CEO of Next Level University. Alan’s approach to coaching comes from the heart, from lessons he learned through his personal life experiences, and has become an honest approach to inspiring, motivating, and educating people on what it truly takes to get to the next level in their lives and ambitions. Alan shares his story and thoughts on transformational thinking with Sara.
The revelations that came to Alan through losing his father to a fatal car accident and then surviving a terrible car accident himself brought him to the realization of his purpose; to assist people in re-tooling and reinventing themselves to achieve a greater level of success in their futures. He learned a lot about leadership through founding his business and guiding his team, and those internal lessons also enriched his coaching. He shares one of his most important principles, which is to ensure that a client’s goals are in alignment with who they really are.
Sara Sheehan and Alan Lazaros discuss Alan’s identified path to success and why self-awareness is what dictates how people will spend the three resources allotted to everyone in the human condition: time, effort, and money. Alan breaks down how our perceptions of ourselves and what we do dictate, to a large extent, who and what we become, and that it’s through habits and measurements of our progress that we achieve success. Sara learns more about Alan’s current work, his future business goals, and what he’s in the process of creating to achieve those goals. This conversation will inspire and transform the way we think about our ambitions.
About Alan Lazaros:
With a powerful combination of technical expertise and business acumen, Alan is a Business Coach, Consultant, Trainer, and Speaker specializing in helping businesses maximize their growth, impact, and profitability online. He believes in a heart-driven but NO BS approach to inspiring, motivating & educating others on what it REALLY takes to get to the next level.
At age 2, Alan’s father passed away in a car accident. At age 26, after getting into a nearly fatal car accident himself, he questioned everything he was doing in life. He questioned who he was and the choices he was making. He was at an all-time low.
Filled with regret, Alan searched for answers and found two of the brightest lights he had ever seen. The first bright light was a book by Bronnie Ware entitled, “The Top 5 Regrets of the Dying,” and the second was a Ted Talk by Tony Robbins. Both of these resources helped Alan find his way and guided him to make the choice of going ALL IN on self-improvement to design a life of meaning and purpose. On this self-improvement journey, Alan has learned he believes in a heart-driven but NO BS approach to inspiring, motivating, and educating others on what it REALLY takes to get to the Next Level.
Today, Alan is proud to say it is his mission to help others create a life full of both success and fulfillment. He learned the hard way how empty success without fulfillment is and how limiting fulfillment without success is as well. Today, he leads a global team of 21 people, and he’s quickly approaching his 10,000 hours of speaking, podcasting, training, and coaching individuals from all walks of life.
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Resources discussed in this episode:
“Emotional Intelligence 2.0” by Travis Bradberry and Jean Greaves“Atomic Habits” by James Clear“Measure What Matters” by John Doerr__
Contact Sara Sheehan | Sara Sheehan Consulting:
SaraWSheehan.comSara Sheehan on LinkedInMeet with SaraContact Alan Lazaros:
Website: NextLevelUniverse.comEmail: [email protected]: Next Level UniversityLinkedIn__
Transcript
Sara Sheehan: [00:00:02] Hi there, I'm Sara Sheehan and welcome to my podcast, Transformational Thinkers with Sara Sheehan. Today I'm joined by Alan Lazaros, CEO of Next Level University. Following a career in corporate, Alan had a near death experience that made him change the trajectory of his life. He became passionate about self-improvement and peak performance. His ultimate goal was to help people improve in business, love, life, health and wealth, dedicating his knowledge and resources to becoming an entrepreneur and peak performance coach. Along with his business partner, he founded his own podcast dedicated to personal growth and peak performance and business. Alan is the founder, CEO and CFO of his podcast, and he has succeeded in bringing and building and scaling his business with over 1680 episodes, sharing his strategies to positively impact people and help them succeed in all areas of life. What a great day it is, Alan, to have time with you and to actually be able to dive in to your story. Welcome, Alan.
Alan Lazaros: [00:01:27] Thank you. It is always a very humbling and awesome experience to hear an intro like that. To see from an outside perspective look at your own accomplishments, your own life, and I appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Sara Sheehan: [00:01:44] Absolutely. So, Alan, talk with me a little bit about your backstory and your near death experience.
Alan Lazaros: [00:01:52] So backstory, the context of this. And again, the important thing to understand here is that I didn't understand any of this at the time. It's kind of like rewatching a movie you saw as a kid, and you sort of rewatch the movie and realize, oh, got it, got it, got it. So it's been a lot of that. So at the time I didn't understand any of this. But now in hindsight, it's more clear. So when I was two years old, my father passed away in a car accident when he was 28 years old. I had a mom who was 31, stay at home mom, and a sister who was 6. From age 3 to 14, I had a stepfather named Steve Lazaros. My real last name is actually McCorkle. And my dad, my birth father, his name is John McCorkle. Big Irish Catholic family, Jim, Joe, John, Jean, Joan, Jeanette, six kids. And when he passed away, we sort of stopped associating a little bit with the McCorkles, I think partially, just unconsciously, because of the pain and the trauma of that. But the other part of it was us trying to be the Lazaroses. So a lot of times people see Alan Lazaros, they see this blond haired, blue eyed, German, Irish, Scottish, Polish person. And they go, Lazaros? Because it's a very Greek last name and I don't have a hair on me.
Alan Lazaros: [00:03:04] So anyways, my real last name is McCorkle. My stepfather came in and I chose his last name around age 7. Fast forward, fast forward, fast forward. My stepfather left at 14 and he took 90% of the income with him. He worked for a company called Agfa, sort of late 90s, early 2000s, they did hospital computers. So we were upper middle class, boats and ski trips, and he had a motorcycle and we had snowmobiles, and we lived on a lake, and we did fairly well. And I was known as sort of a "rich kid" by some of my friends. Although in hindsight, I realized that's probably not true. But we did well. And when he left, we went from boats and ski trips to, now I get free lunch at school because our income is so low. My mom trades in her BMW for a little Honda Civic, and I go from I can't wait to go to my dream college. WPI, Worcester Polytechnic Institute. It's kind of like a mini MIT. $50,000 a year. This is back then. I went from I can't wait to get in to, even if I do get in, I don't know how I'm going to go. We weren't going to starve, but we were definitely struggling financially.
Alan Lazaros: [00:04:13] So I did the only thing I knew how to do at that same time. So 14 was the hardest year of my life. I realized this in hindsight. So stepfather leaves, takes his entire extended family with him. Haven't seen a single one of them since. Talked to my stepdad a little bit on Facebook Messenger. Same year, sister moves out with her older boyfriend. Same year when I'm 14, mom gets in a fight with my aunt Sandy, her sister. And my aunt Sandy ostracizes us from my mom's side of the family. To this day, I've only seen one person from that side of the family, so by the time I'm 14, I've kind of lost three families. And again, did not know this at the time. At the time it was just life. Four trauma responses: fight, flight, freeze and fawn. Fawn is sort of appease. So I became quite the social coward. But behind the scenes it was fight. The past is painful. The present is painful. What am I going to do? I don't have a trust fund. I don't have a father, I don't have-there's no future that's bright here, and I need to do it myself. If it's going to happen, it's going to be me. So I did the only thing I knew how to do, which is aim higher, work harder, get smarter.
Alan Lazaros: [00:05:16] Got straight A's through all of high school. I got what's called the President's Award, it's behind me. Signed by George W Bush. And essentially you have to get straight A's for all four report cards all four years. I was the obnoxious kid at the award ceremony that never sat down. Tons of scholarships, tons of financial aid. I get into my dream college WPI, and I go and I get my bachelor's in computer engineering. Fast forward, I stay for my master's degree and at this point, Computer Engineer, 21st Century, Masters in Business combination, very sought after suddenly, which was interesting. Worked for a ton of different tech companies. So I worked for a company called iRobot. I worked for a company called Sensata Technologies, which used to be Texas Instruments Lens Americas. A little software company called Oz Development. Tyco Safety Products, which eventually became SimplexGrinnell, all these different companies. Job hop, job hop, job hop, soul search, soul search, soul search, 65 to 85, 85 to 105, 105 to 125, 125 to almost 200 grand a year at a company called Cognex. Started a little inside sales engineering team. Got promoted to outside sales. My territory was Connecticut, Western Massachusetts and Vermont. I'm on the road selling industrial automation equipment into manufacturing facilities, big manufacturing facilities, particularly in Connecticut. And Cognex does machine vision equipment, it's kind of like the eyes of a robot. Quality assurance stuff.
Alan Lazaros: [00:06:41] I'm in my early 20s, probably 24, 25. I pay off 84 grand worth of college debt in a single year. I don't have a family. I don't have kids. My rent is 500 bucks a month. I bought a $5,000 car. 2004 Volkswagen Passat. Paid off 84 grand worth of college debt in a single year. Started investing all my capital. Built a Vanguard account, investment portfolio all the way up to $150,000 in my early 20s. And my goal was, okay, when my stepdad left, we didn't have enough money, I'm going to get really wealthy. That was kind of my goal. Then I get in my car accident. So I'm 26 at the time. I'm up in New Hampshire with my little cousin, the only cousin that actually came back from my mother's side, and we're driving to TGI Fridays. I was supposed to yield, I didn't. The snow banks were covering the signs in the bad winter back in 2015. I was supposed to be on the right side of the road. I ended up on the wrong side of the road past the double yellow lines. Look up in front of me. I see the brightest lights I've ever seen.
Alan Lazaros: [00:07:43] Two things in hindsight saved my life. Number one is the Volkswagen Passat 2004. This car, I used to call it The Tank. German engineered steel trap of a car. The whole front end was completely smashed in, but the frame stayed. Airbags deployed. So grateful that I was driving that car. If I was driving a little Honda or something, there's no way I'd be here. So drive safe cars, everyone. Number two. I thought it was a Mack truck. So it wasn't a Mack truck. Biggest, brightest lights I've ever seen, thought it was a Mack truck. Ended up being a lift kitted pickup truck. Kind of a lighter pickup truck, actually. And so that's the only reason why I'm here. So both airbags deployed. My cousin hurt his knee on the airbag. I hurt my face on the airbag. So physically we were okay. Rattled, but okay. Whiplash. Mentally, emotionally and spiritually though, this is the second chance my dad never got. And I've seen pictures of his car and I've seen pictures of my car and they don't look very different. And so for me, this was my existential quarter life crisis of mortality. Just completely filled with, what was it all for? Did my life really matter? Filled with regret? My poor choices? Was this the life I chose, or is this what my mom wanted for me or my family wanted for me? Like everything, just uncertainty.
Alan Lazaros: [00:09:15] Now, in hindsight, I realized this. And this is only in hindsight. At the time, I didn't get it. Before 26, I was extremely successful and achievement oriented and goal oriented and professionally developed. Resume, cover letter, LinkedIn, degrees, bachelor's, master's. But I wasn't as self-improvement oriented. I was focused on achievement rather than self. So I was very successful, but deeply unfulfilled. After the car accident, I flipped the script. I went all in on self-improvement, personal development, inner work, therapy, coaching, books on books on books. I started my own company, became really fulfilled. Healthy. Happy. Productive. Fitness model. Fitness coach. Fitness competitor. Starting my own company, but I went broke. Liquidated all my assets. So now I'm fulfilled, but I'm unsuccessful. And so now here I am, 9 years later, almost 10 years later, I'm going to be 36 in November. And now I can honestly say that I'm both successful and fulfilled. And I now want my future to be an amplified version of what it already is. Whereas back then I never could have said that. And so that's now what I help people with. I actually think success is fairly easy. I also think fulfillment is fairly easy. I think doing them both is actually really hard.
Sara Sheehan: [00:10:27] I would agree with that, yes. Really hard, especially when the mindset gets in the way or derails you, which it often does. You got to learn to wrestle that demon down.
Alan Lazaros: [00:10:44] The ego death that I had after that car accident. The identity death. The ego death. The metaphorical phoenix burning down and then rising anew from the ashes. I mean, it really did clear me up to go to work on me. And it's obvious now, in hindsight, how lost I was before that. But again, of course, it's relative to where I am now, right? So we're all lost. It's just to what extent?
Sara Sheehan: [00:11:12] And you can choose to keep growing and have a growth mindset and everything that you do. So you can make that an upward trend for the rest of your life if you want too. Which is super exciting. And so, Alan, talk with me a little bit about what motivated you to create your business.
Alan Lazaros: [00:11:37] So that is actually something that's super vulnerable to talk about because I don't know if this is unique to me or not. I doubt it is. But I do think as an engineer it might be a little bit unique to me. So I'm a math thinker, and I remember when I was in corporate I saw these trends, particularly automation. I worked in industrial automation and I saw these manufacturing facilities, and think of an ice cream company that's a really famous one. Keep it anonymous. And I'm there and I sell equipment that checks to make sure every carton is optimal, every carton quality assurance. And before I went in, there was these people at the end checking the cartons manually. That was their job. Make sure everything was good, put them in the bin. And I made a sale, and I'll never forget this. And I remember thinking, all of their jobs are gone now, and I just made a big commission check. And big is relative. And I remember thinking, okay, so automation is going to happen whether I'm a part of it or not, like it's coming whether we like it or not. I mean, everyone's been to the grocery store and seen kiosks more than people at the cash register. That's going to happen forever. It always has been happening. It's just been kind of under our noses and now it's exponential. But I saw this really interesting trend, and this is the vulnerable part that I'm always scared to share. The less educated population, statistically speaking, tends to have more children and tends to have them younger. The more educated population tends to have less children and tends to wait. So Emilia and I, she's 29, I'm 35. We were going to wait. We're waiting even longer. And she's extremely well educated, I am too, and again, that's not an elitism thing. It's just the truth. I'm very grateful to be very educated. And so I looked at the stats and I got scared because I saw the uneducated, the less educated population exponentially increasing, and I saw the amount of jobs available for those people exponentially decreasing due to robotics automation.
Alan Lazaros: [00:13:43] And so I decided, you know what? Listen, if you're not a part of the solution, you're a part of the problem. And I knew I was part of the problem. I'm a computer engineer. I know that I'll have a job. The 21st century, every company needs people who understand tech. And that's just the truth. And if you don't understand tech, you are a little bit in trouble and you know it. So please come up in that. And I'm not saying that because I'm being mean. I'm saying that because the future is tech. That said, that was really what inherently got me to start my business, is just realizing that I was out of alignment with the solution. Now the solution is not give everyone a handout. The solution is not save everybody. But the solution is, instead of selling equipment that takes jobs, I'm going to create a company that helps people retool and helps people reinvent themselves so that they are relevant in the 21st century marketplace. And so now I help entrepreneurs and I help individuals grow and scale their small businesses, which creates jobs, but also just helping people realize that, listen, technology is exponentially increasing. The world has changed more in the last 20 years than the previous 200. So you have got to come up and retool and reinvent yourself if you want to be relevant. I mean, I have friends from college. I went to a tech school that are all multi-millionaires, and there's no shortage of job offers for them. But if you don't know tech and you don't have an engineering degree or technology in your background, it's going to be a lot harder for you, potentially. Now my whole company is built on this idea of retool, reinvent yourself, and then you'll have a bigger, better, brighter future. Because I saw a lot of people's future and I got scared.
Sara Sheehan: [00:15:31] That is a fascinating story, Alan, and the fact that you are part of the solution is an even more exciting facet to the story. You have chosen a path to make a difference and help multiply not only your impact, but the people that you work with and help to grow. So that's a wonderful story that I love sharing. Alan, can you talk with me about what lessons you've learned from building and scaling your business?
Alan Lazaros: [00:16:08] The first lesson I learned from growing and scaling my business is that leadership is the hardest thing in the entire world.
Sara Sheehan: [00:16:14] It's definitely not easy, that's for sure.
Alan Lazaros: [00:16:19] So we have a 22 person team, and we talked offline, you and I, and we playfully joked about how I didn't start at 22. So it was 5 and then it was 3 and then it was 7, and then it was 5, and then it was 9. So it's been a lot of challenges. So the first lesson I learned is leadership is the hardest thing in the entire world. The amount that you have to be both professionally developed and personally developed in order to be a 21st century leader is wild. I mean, you need the hard skills because you need to be able to use these softwares. You need to be able to use Zoom. You need to be able to type fast. These hard skills you need. Not all of them, but you need a lot of them. And then you also need the soft skills. You need the emotional intelligence. You need to understand the human condition. You need to understand what motivates people, what inspires people. You need to understand org structure and how to harmonize a team of multicultural, multi-country individuals all toward common goals. And then you also have to have a systems thinking engineering brain that says, okay, these are the things that matter. These are the results we're going for. And if we focus on these inputs, we'll actually get this output.
Alan Lazaros: [00:17:32] It's almost like you're making chocolate cake. But the chocolate cake is an infinite game and you are making it with 50 people, and it's a cake that you are consistently making and then taste testing and then improving and then taste testing and then improving. If you have the right recipe, you can make chocolate cake. But what about in a world where that recipe changes every day, and the people that you're working with evolve and grow and change every day, and then the roles and responsibilities of each of those people change every day. And so the biggest lesson that I learned is leadership is the hardest thing in the entire world. It's a ton of responsibility. In a way, you're kind of responsible for the success of other people. The best vehicle that I've found for leadership has been coaching. Coaching and training, really. And coaching is 1 to 1. Training is 1 to many. So I have training on Saturday with my team. But ultimately you have to be both hard skills, mathematical, systems thinking, structure, self-discipline, lead by example. But you also have to be able to communicate really effectively and understand and be empathetic and vulnerable and humble and courageous and use communication. So you need both professional development and personal development in order to be a great leader, I think, and I can't imagine a great leader who doesn't have both of those.
Sara Sheehan: [00:18:55] I know from all of the leaders that I've worked with in my long career, there are some that are good at both sides and there are many that aren't. I would love for it to become a norm in business that the office bullies and the people that actually are very negatively impacting their teams, that those people would literally be put in a corner. I would love that, over time, because we need more multi-dimensional, effective leaders everywhere, without question. One of the things that you hit on in that answer, Alan, is the need for emotional intelligence, which I think is more now than ever. I don't know if you've read Emotional Intelligence 2.0, but I do highly recommend it if you haven't. Because it actually does document that if you improve on emotional intelligence, you'll actually change your income. It will actually have a numerical impact on what you bring in. So I definitely recommend that book not only to you, but anyone that's listening.
Alan Lazaros: [00:20:30] I just wrote it down. It's on the list.
Sara Sheehan: [00:20:34] Excellent. And so talk with me, Alan, about the context around your business' habit tracking tool and your perspective on metrics.
Alan Lazaros: [00:20:48] So the first thing about the habit tracking tool you're referring to. I've been trying to figure out how to help people be, it's ultimately underneath all of it. It's how to be more successful and how to be more fulfilled. Because yeah, it's business coaching. I have 28 people as of today, actually, on my roster. Everywhere from, hey, I'm 16, I want to start a YouTube channel to I'm 63, I've been in business for decades, I'm already a multi-millionaire. So all different walks of life, all different backgrounds, all different cultures, all different sexes, all different countries. And I've learned more from my clients than anything I've ever done. It's just been amazing because you learn all these different industries, all these different people. But there's certain common traits with every single client, and the first common trait is everyone wants to be more successful and more fulfilled. Everyone. Now the path to that is completely different for every single client, but there's principles that apply to every client. One of the principles that you asked about is metrics. So what I've figured out, and again this is going to sound a little bit overly simple fortune cookie like, but here's what I do with my clients ultimately. And it's so interesting because I can tell you what I do and then it's so complex to actually do it. So here's the deal. A client comes to you and says, I want this goal. The first step is making sure that that goal is actually in alignment with who they really are. I think one of the reasons most people don't achieve their goals, and statistically only 4% of people, I've just researched this, achieve their resolutions, their goals. The reason why I think is, number one, they're outside of alignment. The goals are outside of alignment with who they really are.
Sara Sheehan: [00:22:27] And so they didn't actually set a goal that is something that they could actually do is what you're saying?
Alan Lazaros: [00:22:34] Either it's outside of alignment with their strengths and weaknesses, or it's outside of alignment with their core values.
Sara Sheehan: [00:22:40] That's a serious problem.
Alan Lazaros: [00:22:40] If you have a core value of being present with your family, and then you set a goal to be a billionaire, you're in some serious trouble. Because those are incongruent for the most part. So, number one is figure out who you really are, not the facade. Who you think you are is different than who you really are. So we've got to get to the core. And this is what my car accident did for me. It burnt down the phoenix, my ego. And it got me to face the truth of who I really am. And so that has to be done as a first step. So let's assume that you know 10 out of 10 who you are, self-awareness, which no one is 10 out of 10. And if you think you're 10 out of 10, trust me, you're definitely not. Which is funny. But anyways, so let's get closer to who you really are. Your real strengths, your real weaknesses, your real blind spots, your real core values, what you actually value versus what you tell yourself you value, that kind of thing. Number two is setting a goal based on that. Now once you have the goal, in order to achieve it, you have to reverse engineer it. And that means, and I'm closing my eyes right now because I have to think about this. So if you say, I want to gross a half million dollars in my business this year, okay, how do you do that? To me, there's only three resources in the human condition that all of us have: time, effort and money. It really boils down to those three. Where you put your time, your effort, and your money is going to determine your success.
Sara Sheehan: [00:24:01] That's correct.
Alan Lazaros: [00:24:03] Awesome. And there's only four things you can invest in: persons, places, things and ideas. So where you are going to put your time, effort and money, into which persons, places, things and ideas is going to dictate the results that you get in life. So how do I, as your coach, get you to invest your time, effort and money into the proper or optimal persons, places, things and ideas based on your goal, assuming it's based on who you really are? I figured out, to answer your original question, metrics. If I can get you to measure the right metrics and track the right habits and behaviors, you can get your goal.
Sara Sheehan: [00:24:40] Absolutely. This is something I do all the time in helping clients manage and adopt change. One of the things that they need to do is they really need to think about what their business outcome is. First, they need to identify behaviors that they would like to see in the future, and what measures they will use to track whether or not those behaviors are getting embedded.
Alan Lazaros: [00:25:09] Exactly. And then the behaviors won't happen unless the identity is there first. So you got to go into the identity work. I said this to my client recently. I said, you have all these achievements you want, but you don't identify as an achiever. If you don't identify as an achiever, you're not going to do what achievers do.
Sara Sheehan: [00:25:30] That's a huge problem.
Alan Lazaros: [00:25:31] You're an achiever. I'm an achiever. We identify as achievers. So therefore we're going to act like achievers. And therefore we're going to statistically achieve more than people. I told this to my business partner. I said, Kev, do you identify as an achiever? He said, no, not really. I said, that's holding us back. He says, well, I do identify as a peak performer. Okay, awesome. So what do peak performers do? Every label has a meaning, and that meaning dictates what we do and don't do. And so if you identify as an athlete, you're going to do athletic things more than someone who doesn't. Back to the metrics and habits though. This is a James clear quote from Atomic Habits, it's very valuable. He says every behavior you do is a vote for the type of person you want to become. And so if you podcast consistently, you consider yourself a podcaster, which then gets you to podcast more consistently. It's this positive identity feedback loop.
Sara Sheehan: [00:26:26] We become what we do.
Alan Lazaros: [00:26:28] Yes, 100%. We become what we repeatedly do. I have that quote behind me from Aristotle right there. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit. So ultimately, to answer your question, though, that's what I do, is I break down the top three metrics. Okay, so here's your top three goals for the year, which lead to your dreams. Then let's break that into quarterly goals. Top three quarterly goals. So for the end of Q3 we're ending in a month and nine days. Then we break that down into inch pebbles. The inch pebbles are your daily habits. The daily habits lead to the milestones. The milestones are quarterly goals that lead to the annual goal. The annual goal leads to your goals and dreams. And the metrics are basically, if you want to lose 10 pounds in ten weeks, you have to measure your weight. There's a book called Measure What Matters.
Sara Sheehan: [00:27:16] And maybe the calories you take in.
Alan Lazaros: [00:27:19] Yeah, that too. Perfect. So those are the three main metrics for losing weight is measure your workouts, measure your weight, and measure your calories. But a lot of people don't want to measure. They want to wing it. And the truth is, and I'm an engineer, so I'm biased on this. If you don't know your numbers, you're in trouble.
Sara Sheehan: [00:27:36] There's no source of truth there that you're reckoning with. If you don't measure what you're doing, you're not actually dealing with the fact if you need to make a change and lean in more. Or, I need to change what I'm doing so that I am practicing this habit more. Or, you know what, I may be doing that too much, and I may need to pull another lever and add something else to the mix. If you're not looking at what you're doing, you'll never know.
Alan Lazaros: [00:28:12] I concur. I think one of the biggest problems in people's lives is they're unfulfilled, and the reason they're unfulfilled is because they're not actually in alignment with what they value, and one of the reasons they're not in alignment with what they value is because they don't measure anything. If you have a core value of family, are you measuring the amount of quality time with your family or are you just winging it. And there was this website when I was in college, it was really silly, it was called StumbleUpon back in 2007. It's wild. But I remember thinking it was the dumbest thing ever. But anyways, it's like webcam roulette. You basically do funny things in your webcam and you stumble across other webcams doing funny things, sometimes gross things, whatever. And I remember thinking, dumbest waste of time ever, but whatever, it's a dorm room. But that's how a lot of people live their life. They stumble upon persons, places, things and ideas. They didn't design anything.
Sara Sheehan: [00:29:13] That's an important point.
Alan Lazaros: [00:29:15] And so I'm biased because I'm an engineer. I designed all of this. I mean people say, well, how did you get here? And how did you go through all that adversity and still make it? And whatever. The truth is, it was through massive pain and failure. I designed it all in advance and then just worked really hard and iterated along the way. And I know that sounds overly simple, but the truth is, that's exactly how I did it. And I measure every day. I have 22 habits I track every day.
Sara Sheehan: [00:29:49] That's phenomenal.
Alan Lazaros: [00:29:51] Thank you. And that's the only way I help my clients is, I say, if you don't want to track metrics and habits, I cannot coach you. And in the beginning, trust me, I didn't say that because I needed clients. Now I do, and that's really how I help is just keep you on track. Set up the train tracks, stay on the train tracks, improve the train tracks, and then you get momentum.
Sara Sheehan: [00:30:12] It's pretty simple.
Alan Lazaros: [00:30:13] And you start to believe in yourself. It's really cool what happens, but it's not overnight. It takes sometimes years.
Sara Sheehan: [00:30:19] Well, it takes a minimum of 90 days to even work on three habits becoming a habit. James Clear, I believe he says it's 66 days to truly create a habit in your brain where the neurons connect, and there is an automatic response. And so 90 days working on three habits. Is that realistic?
Alan Lazaros: [00:30:50] Change your whole world.
Sara Sheehan: [00:30:51] Yes it is. It can change your world. Absolutely. I love what you're doing in that space. What other big goals and aspirations, Alan, are you working on accomplishing right now?
Alan Lazaros: [00:31:07] So there's sort of the long term visionary mission statement that I can give, and then I'll break it down. So the mission statement, I have it on my desktop background right now. I can actually read it. It's actually a North Star, so I wear this around my neck. It's a little North Star to remind me of my purpose. To build the most positively impactful, holistic self-improvement company in history. So that's the ultimate, everything gets filtered through that statement. And so if this wasn't in alignment with that, I wouldn't even be here.
Sara Sheehan: [00:31:42] Thank you. That's nice.
Alan Lazaros: [00:31:44] I don't mean that in a negative way, it filters everything. So I'm trying to have a positive impact, and you're having a positive impact, so it's a good thing. So you actually did take that as a compliment?
Sara Sheehan: [00:31:54] Yeah, absolutely. Thank you.
Alan Lazaros: [00:31:56] Of course. Thank you for having me. And then I'll break it down. So in terms of what else we want to achieve, ultimately the podcast is kind of the main thing. I break everything into two trains. I think there's a short term train and there's a long term train. One of them is short term profitability. So right now my focus is business coaching. So my current milestone for this quarter is 30 clients. My goal that rolls up to for 2024 is 35 business coaching clients. And then that's the short term profitable train that actually pays for the long term brand and business builder, which is the podcast called Next Level University. And Kev does the same thing, but he's a podcast coach and then has his own other podcast called Podcast Growth University. Ultimately what we're trying to accomplish is, we call it listeners, longers and business owners. So we have Next Level University, which is the main podcast. He has Podcast Growth University, and I'm starting Business Growth University. So there's listeners, longers and business owners. And I'm an engineer, so this is-I have to close my eyes to think about this. So next level University is about self-improvement, success and fulfillment. Life, love, health and wealth. Holistic self-improvement. Podcast Growth University is how to start, grow, scale and monetize a podcast. Business Growth University is going to be, it's not done yet, is going to be about how to start, grow, scale and monetize a business in the 21st century.
Sara Sheehan: [00:33:22] That's so needed.
Alan Lazaros: [00:33:24] Listeners, longers and business owners.
Sara Sheehan: [00:33:25] So needed, that last part of your pyramid there. Very needed, Business Growth University.
Alan Lazaros: [00:33:37] That is my next main thing.
Sara Sheehan: [00:33:39] Excellent. When can we expect to see context around Business Growth University?
Alan Lazaros: [00:33:48] So right now I have something called The Next Level Audio Blog. I'm rebranding it to Business Growth University hopefully by the end of the year, but honestly I'm a little overwhelmed, so we'll see. Hopefully by the end of the year, definitely in 2025 though.
Sara Sheehan: [00:34:01] You have enough time to get it done. I understand when you have too many priorities, sometimes you need to take a look at it and move it out.
Alan Lazaros: [00:34:12] We currently have too many priorities, I would say. But the listeners, longers business owners thing. So listeners are people who want to learn from us. Longers are people who want to build their own podcasts and build their own communities. And then business owners are people who want to start and scale an actual business with skin in the game. And a lot of listeners turn into longers, longers turn into business owners. There's some business owners who want to start a podcast, and they go to Kev, and there's some podcasters who want to start a business, and they come to me. We actually have several clients we're both working with, and he's helping them scale their podcast, I'm helping them scale their business. But ultimately, we're just helping people do what we've done. And so it's this really cool metaphorical mountain that we're all climbing together and we're learning together along the way. And it's a mountain that gets higher as you climb it.
Sara Sheehan: [00:35:00] And your impact increases as well which is super exciting. And so, Alan, what does being a transformational thinker mean to you.
Alan Lazaros: [00:35:11] So when I saw the title of your podcast, I got very excited. There are six leadership styles and there's a bunch of different modalities of leadership. So the six that I use are: there's servant leader, there's participatory leader, there's delegative leader, there's transactional leader, there's dictator or assertive leader, and then there's transformational leader. I think I got them all. Servant, delegative, transactional, assertive, participatory and then transformational. And to answer your question, transformational thinker, I think, is a transformational leader. And the difference between a transformational leader and all the other leadership styles is that a transformational leader deploys whichever leadership style is necessary in the moment. So we joke, we have three chief officers, me, Kevin and Christina, and she's the COO and really the backbone of the company and I'm the CEO and Kevin's the chief sales officer. He was the CFO and then we transitioned that to me because I'm the numbers guy. So that didn't make any sense. Whoops. (Good lesson learned) Yeah, it was. We playfully refer to ourselves as the three cowards. And the reason why is because no one wants to be bad cop. And so it ends up having to be me. And I think a transformational leader is someone who is willing to fight for what's the best win win win scenario. There's a book called High Road Leadership that I actually think is garbage, but the concept of high road leadership is amazing and garbage is probably too harsh. I mean, it wasn't terrible. I was just so excited and it ended up letting me down.
Alan Lazaros: [00:36:52] But anyways, high road leadership is, in my opinion, what it means to be a transformational thinker. You don't think about just the now. You don't really care about the now, actually. I don't care that much about the now to be completely honest. I care about the future. I care about the greater good, and sometimes the greater good means that an individual needs to stop craving such significance in the moment. I'm just going to give an example, and I think I'll get a little villainized for this, but whatever. Anyone who says, oh, it's my birthday week. It's like, listen, the world doesn't revolve around you. And you don't get a week. I don't care about my birthday. There are there are bigger problems in the world. Have you ever heard someone who's like, oh, well, you didn't wish me a happy birthday. I don't want to be mean. But the truth is, who cares? You need to find some perspective. You need to go work on problems that are real. I'm sorry, but your birthday doesn't matter to me. My own birthday doesn't matter to me. You think yours does? That's what a transformational thinker is. Someone who doesn't care about trivial, mundane things that just don't really matter that much. It's someone who orients their life around meaning and purpose and the greater good, and usually gets wildly villainized for that.
Sara Sheehan: [00:38:13] The only thing I'd add to what you just said is some of what you said earlier, which is that the part of now that I think that you are concerned about is the, what people are doing now. Because you know that what people do now is what creates the future. And so you are concerned about those behaviors, habits and metrics. You are concerned about that.
Alan Lazaros: [00:38:46] Fulfillment, virtue, growth, contribution, maximizing your potential, that I care about. I do not care about your birthday.
Sara Sheehan: [00:38:55] I understand. You can know, I think, in developing more emotional intelligence, which we all can stand to do. Because it means that we'll have deeper connections with people that we interact with and have more impact, not only on the individual that we're interacting with, but in others around them, because they will have more impact on others. When you get into a situation where you are caring about the people that are on your team, you're going to see them be more engaged. And when they're more engaged, you're going to see business performance increase as well.
Alan Lazaros: [00:39:43] I didn't plan on this, but a little side tangent. You asked me, what's the best lesson that I've learned in growing Next Level University. If I could go back and tell this to my younger self, this is what it would be: humility is the most important character trait in the world. And it's sneaky because inward humility is different than outward modesty. Inward humility is someone who reads the books behind the scenes when no one's watching. Inward humility is someone who is still working on themselves and has a therapist, and has mentors and coaches and learns and is a student mindset. Leading people without humility is almost impossible. I have a new rule, and the new rule is, and this is to your point too, when you say that pouring into your team, caring about your team, that's going to lead to more engagement, which will lead to more success. That's absolutely true, but not if there's not humility, because then you're going to keep pouring into someone who's deeply significance driven, and it's going to go to their head and you're going to create delusion. And that's always ended up a mistake. So someone with high humility who checks themselves constantly. Because leaders want to pour into people and build them up. What happens when you're building someone up passed into delusion.
Sara Sheehan: [00:41:06] That's not good. Not only is it not good, it's not healthy. It's not. It's going to breed a toxic environment.
Alan Lazaros: [00:41:16] Agreed. And then you create entitlement, delusion, and then it's all about status and perception and smoke and mirrors and it becomes this whole thing. I basically will never, ever bring a team member on who doesn't have high humility ever again.
Sara Sheehan: [00:41:31] Very insightful, Alan. And so is there anything else that you're working on that you would like to share?
Alan Lazaros: [00:41:37] No, I think that's it. We have a website called nextleveluniverse.com, spelled just like it sounds. And the podcast is Next Level University. 1% improvement. Health, wealth, life and love in your pocket every day from anywhere on the planet, completely free. And that's it. Thank you for having me, I appreciate it.
Sara Sheehan: [00:41:59] That's phenomenal. And so, Alan, are there any other ways for our listeners to find you?
Alan Lazaros: [00:42:04] Those are the two best ways. You can also email me, [email protected]. Please just provide context. Because, like all of us, I get a lot of spam.
Sara Sheehan: [00:42:19] Absolutely. Well, the personal touch always makes a difference. So when someone can actually reach out to you and ask their question, they might be more likely to engage you in the future. I definitely am a proponent of actually sharing how people can reach you because it does make a difference. Thank you so much for your time today, Alan, and for sharing your personal lessons learned as you have pivoted not only your life, but your professional world, and you are absolutely creating a ripple effect that is going to be a great thing for people that really want to increase their performance. So I applaud you.
Alan Lazaros: [00:43:12] Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. This is an honor. I do not take it lightly to speak into the lives of others and for that opportunity. So I really appreciate it. Thank you for having me.
Sara Sheehan: [00:43:21] Excellent. Thank you so much for your time today.
Sara Sheehan: [00:43:22] Thank you so much for joining today's session of Transformational Thinkers with Sara Sheehan. My conversation with Alan Lazaros is just full of insights. Alan's remarkable journey from overcoming a near-death experience through a car accident to creating a transformational self-improvement platform offers invaluable lessons for leaders and entrepreneurs alike. Here are three big takeaways from our insightful conversation. The power of emotional intelligence. Developing deeper connections through emotional intelligence can significantly impact both personal relationships and business performance. The importance of humility in leadership. Maintaining humility is crucial in leadership roles. It helps prevent the pitfalls of entitlement and delusion, fostering a healthier, more productive team environment. Metric driven success. Identifying and measuring the right metrics can make or break your goals. Every behavior is a vote for the person that you want to become, so align your daily habits with your long term vision. Alan is not only revolutionizing personal growth through Next Level University, but also sharing his expertise on how to scale and monetize businesses in the 21st century. This conversation is just full of actionable insights that I'm so glad to share with you today. Don't forget to subscribe to Transformational Thinkers with Sara Sheehan and never miss an episode.
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Sara Sheehan’s guest in this episode is Dr. Bruno R. Cignacco, an international business consultant, TEDx speaker, and best-selling author. For over thirty years Dr. Cignacco has advised and trained hundreds of companies on trade activities and social marketing. His latest book, “The Art of Compassionate Business” examines the long-held assumption that employees are and should be treated like commodities and customers perceived as difficult. Bruno instead explores the need for humanity and healthy relationships not just with employees but with customers and shareholders as well.
Businesses frequently resort to operating only on the quantitative outputs of a company, which can be measured, instead of qualitative values such as compassion, generosity, and engagement. Dr. Cignacco challenges the assumption that humanistic love has no place in business. He asserts the many benefits of humane and compassionate dealings with the people who comprise the workplace. The benefits become quantitative when they turn the workplace into a supportive environment that fosters a sense of safety and innovation where employees and customers feel valued, and when the fear of losing jobs, money, or status can be pushed aside.
Sara Sheehan and Dr. Bruno Cignacco discuss how organizations have stepped away from operating with any degree of love or care for the people who create and sustain their success, why the need to embrace seeing people as humans deserving of empathy and support is so great, and the overall benefits to the paradigm shift that’s needed. Bruno shares what is required to change the cold approach of businesses and how to embrace a more compassionate engagement with people. There is room for humanistic love in business, and it can help an organization flourish.
About Dr. Bruno Cignacco:
Dr Bruno Roque Cignacco (PhD) is an international business consultant, TEDx speaker, lecturer, and best-selling author. For over 30 years, he has advised and trained hundreds of companies on international trade activities and social marketing. He is a university professor at different institutions in the UK. He is a Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy (HEA - UK). He is also the author of business and personal development books published in different languages. His new best-selling book is titled “THE ART OF COMPASSIONATE BUSINESS. MAIN PRINCIPLES FOR THE HUMAN-ORIENTED ENTERPRISE" (Routledge). His TEDx talk titled "The art of compassionate business" at Bonn Square Salon (Oxford, UK) has been viewed thousands of times.
This specialist has delivered countless talks and training at a myriad of organisations, such as YPO (Mexico), Hult University, NCC Education in Manchester (UK), HKU SPACE (Hong Kong), University of Wollongong (Australia), Karachi Institute of Economics & Technology (Pakistan), Federation of Small Businesses UK, Jaipur Rugs (India), University of London, Guizhou University of Finance and Economics (China), Centre for Sustainable Action, Edinburgh Napier University, University of Bahrein, The University of Law (UK), Bicol University (The Philippines), Kamara Youths, DUAL Group (Howden Group Holdings), ASM Institute of professional studies (India), Deloitte (Denmark), and Bath Royal Literary & Scientific Institution (UK), among hundreds of other institutions worldwide.
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Resources discussed in this episode:
“The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People” by Stephen R. Covey“The art of compassionate business with Bruno Cignacco” TEDX BonnSquareSalon__
Contact Sara Sheehan | Sara Sheehan Consulting:
SaraWSheehan.comSara Sheehan on LinkedInMeet with SaraContact Bruno Cignacco:
Website: BrunoCignacco.comBook: “The Art of Compassionate Business: Main Principles for the Human-Oriented Enterprise” by Dr. Bruno R. CignaccoLinkedInTranscript
Sara Sheehan: [00:00:02] Hi there, I'm Sara Sheehan and welcome to my podcast Transformational Thinkers with Sara Sheehan. Does love make business better? Yes, it certainly does. Not sentimental love, but humanistic love and compassion can aid in employee health and well-being, nurture collaboration with competitors, develop better relationships with investors and suppliers, and increase efficiency, productivity and the bottom line. Today, I'm speaking with Dr. Bruno Cignacco, a pioneer in compassionate business practices. Bruno is an esteemed international business consultant, TEDx speaker, lecturer and best-selling author with over 30 years of experience. In today's episode, we delve into Bruno's latest book, The Art of Compassionate Business: Main Principles for the Human-Oriented Enterprise. This book challenges long held assumptions about business dynamics and offers a refreshing perspective on how companies can operate more humanely and with humanistic love. Bruno shares insights on how to view employees as individuals, embrace competitors as collaborators, and foster creativity within a compassionate business framework. Get ready for an enlightening conversation that could transform the way you think about business.
Bruno Cignacco: [00:01:42] Thank you very much.
Sara Sheehan: [00:01:43] Thank you so much for joining me here today, Bruno.
Bruno Cignacco: [00:01:49] Thank you Sara. Thank you. I feel very honored to be here.
Sara Sheehan: [00:01:52] I am so glad to be engaging in this conversation. Compassion and business is a topic that literally no one is talking about, so I am super intrigued with what you're doing and I want to amplify your message. So tell me, Bruno, is there a way to perform business activities in a more humane way?
Bruno Cignacco: [00:02:24] Yes, there is, of course. Thank you for the question. We can first define compassion because many people might think about compassion in different ways. Compassion can be defined very simply as an attitude toward other people, where you understand how they think, you understand how they feel, and you try to support them, especially when they face challenges. This concept of compassion can be applied to business because you will be related to colleagues in the workplace, you will be related to customers and other stakeholders like suppliers, community members, business partners. And being compassionate, according to research, brings about a lot of benefits that then we will enumerate much more in detail. But what I observed is that many companies tend to focus only on what I call the quantitative aspect of business. What can be measured? What can be precisely counted? For example, market share, productivity, profitability, these are what we call the economic parameters of business. What makes a company successful, economically speaking, in the market place. And they're very important. But they in many cases dismiss what I call the qualitative aspect of business what cannot be measured precisely what cannot be counted. For example, compassion, camaraderie, commitment, engagement, generosity, gratitude, and this qualitative aspect of business, what cannot be measured cannot be counted precisely. Build strong, long lasting relationships with different stakeholders and why it's so important because we can mention Stephen Covey, a very important thinker in management, that he observed that a very important principle in life and in business is interdependence.
Bruno Cignacco: [00:04:15] No company can succeed without stakeholders. No company can succeed without customers, without employees, without community members, without suppliers. So when you build a strong relationship with these stakeholders, this economic indicator profitability, productivity, efficiency, market share tend to be achieved naturally. Instead, when you focus only on these economic indicators, in many cases you tend to achieve these indicators and you try to achieve this indicator by all means, in some cases in a very unethical way. For example, exploiting employees, polluting the environment, deceiving customers, developing win lose agreements with suppliers. And obviously, when you behave in this unethical way and this unkind way, how do you expect this stakeholder to support your company. No, they will withdraw. They won't cooperate. In some cases, supply will look for other companies. Employees might work for competing organizations. Customers might leave negative reviews, so this means that being compassionate implies building a strong, long lasting relationship with these stakeholders and creating a balance between the qualitative aspects of business that cannot be measured precisely. Camaraderie, compassion, generosity and quantity the aspect of what can be measured precisely.
Sara Sheehan: [00:05:38] Thank you very, very much for that. I know that fear is a very powerful emotion, and it can derail many people right in the middle of being in productive flow. Why does fear in business prevent people from being kind?
Bruno Cignacco: [00:06:03] Very interesting. First of all, we want to define fear. Fear is a contracted emotional state. When people feel fearful, they feel fear, they tend to act in a defensive way in a very non proactive way. Why? Because they look for threats in the environment and they tend to adopt what the psychologists call flight or fight mode, which implies that we are looking for something to defend from, something that could be threatening. The types of fear that are in the workplace are, for example, fear of being fired, fear of making mistakes, fear of, for example, being outpaced by colleagues, fear of acting in an innovative way. So this means that when you have fear in the workplace, the workplace tends to be psychologically unsafe. People cannot be themselves. They cannot cooperate. In workplaces where there is a lot of fear, they are not trust based workplaces and people act in a very defensive way. This means that they don't like to share resources with others. In some cases, they are competing with each other and this creates a lot of inefficiency. And why? Because the cost goes up in a way that people don't share resources.
Bruno Cignacco: [00:07:30] In some cases, they want to put everything in writing. Imagine you don't trust your supply. You might write a very detailed contract. You might contract lawyers to check that all the conditions are very clear. Why? Because you don't trust, you are fearful of this supplier deceiving you. Well, when there is fear, not only do people not cooperate, but they tend to withdraw. And when people are fearful, they cannot be compassionate because they are in incompatible states. And when they are fearful, they cannot be innovative. Why? Because there is a lot of research on innovation and creativity. People tend to be innovative and creative when they have much more expansive emotions. For example, joy, when they have more contracted emotion like fear. Why? Because when you are fearful, your reasoning skills are temporarily impaired. You think about the threat. You focus on the threat, and you don't think about how to become more productive because it's not relevant at that moment. You don't think about how to become much more innovative because you try to defend yourself.
Sara Sheehan: [00:08:30] We were just talking about fear and about how fear keeps people from being kind. Moving forward, what kinds of fears do you see in the workplace?
Bruno Cignacco: [00:08:46] As I mentioned, there are different types of fear in the workplace. People are fearful of being fired. People are fearful of making mistakes or fearful of being outpaced by other colleagues. And also, in some cases, people are fearful of not abiding by the consensus in this organization what we call groupthink. They are fearful of dissenting with others. And this fear brings about a lower productivity, lower creativity, lower trust. And this brings about a negative impact on the economic results. Because when people are fearful, they cannot be proactive, they cannot be proactive and they cannot be innovative.
Sara Sheehan: [00:09:32] This is a great conversation. When I think about fear in the workplace I often think about situations where employees are fearful of layoffs, or they're fearful of retribution from a certain situation, something that comes back to harm them. And when I think about situations where either I've had fear or I've seen fear in others, it's always been an unproductive situation. It's a very powerful thing to make sure that leaders are cluing into how people are feeling, and trying to get them on the positive side of the equation. That's very powerful because it will help your people be more productive. It's a great point. Moving forward, what would you say are economic impacts from being more human oriented in business?
Bruno Cignacco: [00:10:50] There are some research studies that observe that when you have a loving workplace, and here we are talking about love in a humanistic way. Which includes some byproducts such as compassion, empathy, support, care. When you have a loving workplace, employee satisfaction goes up. Customer satisfaction also goes up. Why? Because employees that are satisfied, employees that are happy, they are content, they are fulfilled, tend to serve customers in a much more effective way. They look for the happiness of this customer, but also in this workplace that are supportive, they are kind. They are trust based. There is lower absenteeism, lower stress levels, lower turnover and all this factor impact positively on the bottom line, which means profits. Companies also reduce the medical bills. Why? Because people get less stress.
Sara Sheehan: [00:11:48] They're healthier.
Bruno Cignacco: [00:11:49] They're healthier and like to go to work. They don't go only for the salary because they go also because they feel that they are making a meaningful contribution to this company and to a stakeholder in general.
Sara Sheehan: [00:12:01] That is a powerful message. Love is good for business. Caring for your people is going to pay dividends in your business. So powerful. Let's transition to talk a little bit about manipulation and how that impacts the environment at work. There is so much, there is a huge proliferation of manipulation in the business world. Why do you think that is?
Bruno Cignacco: [00:12:40] Well, manipulation implies generally acting without integrity. So this means that every time that a company adopts a manipulative strategy, this company is more prone to act without integrity, and integrity implies acting with transparency. Acting with kindness. Acting with supportiveness. And manipulation is the opposite. Some examples that you see of manipulation is when companies consider customers not as human beings with legitimate needs that need to be acknowledged and need to be addressed and satisfied whenever possible, but they consider these customers as specific figures in the database of this company that will make this company profits. So they don't care so much about the customer needs, but they care about the profit that they can obtain from this customer and customers feel used, utilized. And these companies, some cases when they act in a manipulative way, they use deceptive strategies. They try to force customers into buying certain products that they don't need, or in some cases, they are not transparent with the terms and conditions. They have a very nice fine print that is hidden in the contracts to deceive customer when they have problems. In some cases, the companies are grateful when the customer buy from them, but then they leave these customers to their own devices. When they have problems with the product, they don't sort out these problems at all. But also, employees can be manipulated. They can be considered as cogs in the company's machinery. This means that when they are faulty as parts of this machinery, this employee needs to be replaced. They are not considered as human beings that they have some challenges, problems. They have emotions too. They have emotional needs. They have social needs, mental needs besides economic needs. In some cases, employees are considered only as resources and resources can be used and can be used in excess.
Bruno Cignacco: [00:14:51] Instead, employees are human beings, and they are the most important resource that the company can resort to. Why? Because employees are meta resources. They are resources that help the company generate other resources. Employees can help the company generate new products, innovative services, new business models, new processes, systems. So employees should be taken care of. Because when you take care of employees, these employees will take care of customers. So most companies get profit from customers. But also another point to highlight is that many companies consider employees like costs. Costs that need to be reduced. So we're affected by the recession, we need to cut off the cost. What are the ones suffering from this cost cutting? Employees. And employees don't feel appreciated. In some cases, the company take for granted these employees. And micromanage these employees. This means that they treat these employees as little children, not the children that need to be educated, that need to be supervised continually. I don't give this employee the autonomy. A very important thing for every employee to decide is the best way to act in every situation. So these employees are feeling manipulated and unappreciated. And this employee, when they find better job opportunities, even job opportunities that they will have lower salary. They will look for this opportunity because in other company they might have not only the economic mismatch, but they will have emotional needs met. They might feel appreciated, they might feel supported, they might feel valued. And they will also have social needs. Meaning connecting to others, have been meeting with colleagues inside work and outside the workplace. So these employees are not resources to be used and abused, but they are human beings with legitimate needs.
Sara Sheehan: [00:16:39] Yes, absolutely. I love the detail that you went into there. It's super helpful. One of the questions that comes to mind as we talk about people and how they are impacted by manipulation, and how if your employees are happy, they are going to also make sure that your customers are happy. They're going to go the extra mile. When I think about these concepts, it immediately makes me think about having a strong and productive sales function. And so I'd love to hear from you about what the human centered approach is for building an amazing sales function.
Bruno Cignacco: [00:17:28] Very interesting, very interesting. Well, we have to change the paradigm because most of the companies have a sales paradigm, and in my research I use a different paradigm, a completely different way of seeing business and seeing the relationship with the customer. I call this service paradigm. This means serving customer. Instead of trying to sell products to customer, you try to serve customer. And being of service doesn't mean servitude. This means that you look for the best, for this stakeholder, for the customer. You try to be less self-centered and try to focus on the customer needs. This means that you try to find out what the customer needs are first, and try, if possible, to meet these needs and if possible, to exceed this need. This means you try to delight customers. This means giving them more that they need.
Sara Sheehan: [00:18:25] Surprise and delight.
Bruno Cignacco: [00:18:27] Surprise and delight. Try to engage them in a positive relationship, in a long term relationship. You don't adopt a transactional approach, it means a one off sale, but you try to bring a long term relationship and try to assist customers not only before sales, during the sale process and post sales. And also customers that are responding to this approach where the company tries to delight them, feel that the company care for them, and this customer tend to respond very positively. There is a lot of research on delight and customer service, and they observe that when customers are delighted, they are more prone to become loyal to this company and they are more prone to leave positive reviews. They are more prone also to recommend these companies products to other customer, and they might become silent or overt ambassadors of this company's product, recommended silently or in close circles to friends, but recommending this product overtly, for example, using social media to other potential customers.
Sara Sheehan: [00:19:34] Absolutely, become an influencer. Absolutely. I just want to double click on one of the terms that you use, just to make sure that it's really clear. Is it a service principal? Is that what you were mentioning?
Bruno Cignacco: [00:19:48] The attitude of service or attitude of serving customers.
Sara Sheehan: [00:19:51] Yes. I couldn't agree more with that. Why are generosity and gratitude not part of business anymore?
Bruno Cignacco: [00:20:08] Because people are focused on the urgent. This means that first off, they are not focused on building strong relationships with stakeholders. Why? Because they have, in many cases in the workplace, they have tight deadlines. They have multiple projects that are complex and in some cases with very urgent delivery of this project. But in practice, in many cases, people believe that being generous is giving only tangible things to others. For example, if the company is generous with employees, they might believe that it is only paying bonuses according to the employees performance. But a company can, for example, a boss in the workplace can be generous with their subordinates in different ways. For example, giving them intangible things. For example, if the manager sees that the employee is worried, concerned, this manager can give an ear and listen to this employee's concerns to see if they have family problems or health problems or some issues at home in order that they can provide with some support. For example, flexible time or some days off and so on. They can give some coaching, they can give some mentoring, they can give technical advice. They can provide this employee with valuable information, information about training or workshop or seminars so this means they can give thanks to this employee for their contribution. So generosity and gratitude are very connected.
Bruno Cignacco: [00:21:40] And in practice, most companies are focusing on obtaining. Obtaining market share. I want more profit as a company, I want more customers. And there should be a balance between obtaining and giving. Most companies are focusing on themselves, on obtaining, on getting wealthier, bigger, more productive. But as anything in life, there should be a balance between being self-centered and being centered on others. So when you are generous, you are focusing on the well-being of others, and this helps generate a positive cycle of generosity. And about gratitude, we can comment about some study that when people are thankful to others, these people are feeling more engaged in the workplace. They feel connected. Why? Because they feel that their contribution counts. They feel valuable as employees and they feel that they are making a positive difference to the company's mission and to the world in general. To different stakeholders, bringing about more well-being to different stakeholders, customers and other employees, and so on. So when people are acting in an ungenerous way, they tend to be much more self-centered. What is in it for me, and this is not the right question. When you are generous is how can I help others? How can I support others? And this helps. Being generous builds strong, long lasting relationships. Also, when people witness act of generosity, they tend to be infected by this act in a positive way. They tend to become much more generous. So this means that generosity begets more generosity.
Sara Sheehan: [00:23:15] Yes, I've noticed that.
Bruno Cignacco: [00:23:17] When people are not generous, they tend to become, or people around tend to follow this example. Being stingy or self-centered.
Sara Sheehan: [00:23:25] Absolutely. When you're giving and you're willing to share with others, they are going to be willing to pay it forward. I've seen quite a bit of that in my career, and I feel like it is so very powerful to be generous and kind to others. And I want to see that repeating cycle where it repeats in the future.
Bruno Cignacco: [00:23:59] Very interesting. I want to comment about a very little experience. I'm half Italian and I used to drink a lot of cappuccino, and here in London there are many coffee shops that are very famous big chains. And I went once to a coffee shop, and I talked to the waiter and the waiter told me, we will bring the coffee to your table. Don't worry, there will be a couple of minutes. 15, 20 minutes later they came with a coffee and the coffee was cold, delivered late. I went to the competing company two days later, and the same. Similar type of cappuccino, told me go to the table, we will bring the cappuccino to your table. And when they left the cappuccino on the table, the waiter, two minutes later, only a very short time, they brought a tray with a biscuit and I said, sorry, you forgot the tray with the biscuit. I didn't order this. No, no, this is not a mistake. This is for you. It's a gift from the house to enjoy your cappuccino. Look at the difference. The first company couldn't even meet the basic need. Bringing a cappuccino on time and hot. The second company, look at the detail. Small details count. How much these biscuits cost this company? Probably a few cents, but in practice make a lot of difference. Why? Because the company tries to focus on my satisfaction. They were acting in a non-manipulative way. They were trying to exceed my needs. And I enjoy this biscuit because they were the perfect match with the cappuccino. And which company do you think that I still go and have a cappuccino?
Sara Sheehan: [00:25:38] I think you go to the latter.
Bruno Cignacco: [00:25:40] Yes, exactly. So this means that generosity makes a lot of difference.
Sara Sheehan: [00:25:44] That is a wonderful example. Truly, I very much appreciate that. Talk with me, Bruno, about what big goals and aspirations you're currently working on right now.
Bruno Cignacco: [00:25:58] Well, we are training companies on compassionate business. And also I'm working on my new book that I cannot reveal the topic because of confidentiality. And also we are training companies on compassionate business and international marketing. I continually research on business topics, and also I'm teaching at various universities here in the UK, and my goal is to disseminate these ideas as much as possible. And also maybe in 20 years time we will talk again and all companies will be compassionate and this topic will be completely outdated. But a dream would have come true and hopefully this will come.
Sara Sheehan: [00:26:44] Absolutely. Well, I know you're going to make a difference, because you're going to help people to understand that when they stay in a negative mindset, they're only hurting themselves, and they really need to think about how their people feel around them and doing things so that you're creating an environment that's motivating and engaging. If you care about your people, your business will take care of itself.
Bruno Cignacco: [00:27:18] So true, so true. I completely agree. It doesn't take a lot of time to be compassionate. There is a very interesting piece of research that observed that it takes a very short time to engage in a compassionate conversation with others. For example, in the health sector, there is a case of doctors that were to go through a very serious operation with some patients that were very critical. And these doctors engaged in a one minute conversation with this patient before the operation, because the patient was very anxious, very stressed. When they went through the operation, they noticed that this patient needed less anesthesia as compared with the patient that didn't have this one minute conversation, soothing conversation. And also the recovery time was shorter for this patient, that they have only a one minute compassionate conversation with the doctor. Why? Because they felt more supported. This is very incredible. So this means that compassion is not only supporting but has very tangible effects. Mental and emotional.
Sara Sheehan: [00:28:29] It has physical, medical benefits that will help you recover faster in an operative situation. My goodness, that is just phenomenal. I know I've always preferred to work with doctors that are better on the bedside manner side, and maybe that's a window into why I've always been motivated in that way. That is truly fascinating. Well, now I would like to ask you, Bruno, what does being a transformational thinker mean to you?
Bruno Cignacco: [00:29:14] Being a transformational thinker means to me that, well, I have some good examples of transformational thinkers such as Stephen Covey and also Peter Drucker. Transformational thinker implies making a difference in the world. Small or big difference, doesn't matter. Why? Because the propagation of this idea brings about small ripple effects. But this ripple effect compounds and I strongly believe that anyone can be compassionate in organization regardless of their role. Doesn't matter if you are the CEO or you are the janitor cleaning the toilet, you can always bring about positive influence and bring about positive role model that will allow others to emulate this model and also bring about wider effects in this organization. So this means that the transformational leader brings about a ripple effect that brings about, at the end, a bigger impact on organization, but also on the organization environment. The cases that I mentioned in the book about companies that are compassionate, they are not only bringing about a better workplace, but also they are bringing about a better world, a better relationship, a better relationship with suppliers, a better relationship with the community members, a better relationship with customers, and so on. So this means that they bring about what the experts call win, win, win, win agreements. Everyone wins. Nobody wins at the expense of others.
Sara Sheehan: [00:30:47] Yes. Having mutually beneficial situations across the board, that is a very powerful way to engage with others. When everyone wins, it makes everyone excited to engage and that is a very positive energy. It just makes me smile and light up when I'm thinking about it. I want to work with people that want win win situations. And additionally, I want to help people win, too.
Bruno Cignacco: [00:31:28] So true. Because imagine if there is a win lose agreement. The relationship won't prosper. Won't thrive. Why? Because nobody wants to be in a relationship, business relationship or non business. Where one wins at the expense of other. And they might feel manipulated. Instead, when people are center of developing this agreement that are mutually beneficial, the relationship not only prospers, but tends to become stronger over time. Much more solid. Much more robust.
Sara Sheehan: [00:31:59] Yes. We've had a fascinating conversation today, is there anything that's coming to mind that you would like to share?
Bruno Cignacco: [00:32:10] Yes, I want to share a couple of self-reflection questions for the listeners. To implement this in a very practical way. I feel that any of the listeners could ask themselves this question on a regular basis. Doesn't matter if they are the CEO or working as an employee in this organization in any level. How can I be more compassionate with different stakeholders? How can I be more compassionate with my colleagues? How can I be more compassionate with customers and with any other stakeholder that I'm related to? But also, how can I support them when they face difficulties? How can I be more generous, and how can I be more grateful to them for their contribution? And also, this is a very important point to think about this, because any of the listeners can make positive impact on the internal environment of the company, the workplace and the external environment, too.
Sara Sheehan: [00:33:10] That's a wonderful thought to end on. I love the thought provoking nature of just reflecting on, how can I be more generous? How can I do more for others from a truly authentic place in my heart? That is a very powerful reflection. I thank you so very much for that. Can you tell me how our listeners can find you?
Bruno Cignacco: [00:33:48] They can find me on LinkedIn, or they can find me, for example, they can check one of my website, www.brunocignacco.com, with double C. Or they can find my books. For example, the Art of Compassionate Business can be found online or offline. The second edition is with a white cover and include hundreds of examples of compassionate organizations from different sectors and sizes.
Sara Sheehan: [00:34:14] Fantastic. I thank you so much for your time today.
Bruno Cignacco: [00:34:18] Thank you very much.
Sara Sheehan: [00:34:20] Thank you so much for joining this wonderful conversation today with Dr. Bruno Cignacco. We dove deep into the art of compassionate business, where Bruno shares invaluable insights on how compassion can revolutionize the workplace and drive success. The three big takeaways from today's conversation: First, embrace compassion alongside productivity. Dr. Cignacco emphasizes the importance of integrating qualitative aspects like compassion, camaraderie, and engagement with quantitative ones such as productivity and profitability for a thriving business. Second, foster a loving workplace by cultivating compassion, empathy, and support. Companies can boost employee satisfaction, reduce absenteeism and turnover, and create a ripple effect that positively impacts customers and profits. Third, practice generosity and gratitude. Generosity in the workplace goes beyond tangible rewards. Intangible acts like listening, mentoring, and providing support can create a positive cycle that builds strong and lasting relationships with employees and customers alike. This conversation is absolutely groundbreaking. No one is talking about compassion and business, and I would love to create a ripple effect of not only people talking about being compassionate in the workplace, but the actual manifestation of more compassion at work, where people are actually caring about their employees, and their businesses thrive at a much higher level. As always, subscribe to Transformational Thinkers with Sara Sheehan and never miss an episode.
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Sara Sheehan’s guest in this episode is Terry Tucker, a speaker, international podcast guest on the topic of motivation, and author of “Sustainable Excellence: Ten Principles to Leading Your Uncommon and Extraordinary Life”. Terry has a storied history including working as a marketing executive, hospital administrator, and SWAT hostage negotiator, in addition to surviving cancer. Sara and Terry talk about his books, his cancer journey, and why communication and connection are vital to living extraordinary lives.
Our job doesn’t always have to embody our purpose, which is a lesson Terry learned through living and now widely shares. He stresses that we should lean into our soul’s purpose to fulfill our lives. He also learned the secrets to effective communication through his time as a hostage negotiator and explains why the 7% how you communicate, 38% words you say, and 55% body language and expressions formula is so important to consider. Of course, a large part of communication is listening and that leads to greater connection, which Terry says is his greatest focus in life currently.
Sara Sheehan and Terry Tucker explore how to foster deeper connections and why those connections are so important to both life and success. Terry reflects on his cancer journey by discussing how life will always bring us challenges and adversity and that it’s how we rise from adversity and what we learn from it that defines us going forward. Sara Sheehan learns that Terry wouldn’t change the course of his life because he believes cancer made him a better person and that his next book will focus on being of service to ourselves, our families and friends, and our communities. This motivational episode is not to be missed.
About Terry Tucker:
Terry Tucker is a sought-after speaker who believes in the power of a good story to motivate, inspire, and encourage others to lead their uncommon and extraordinary lives.
By combining his twelve-year cancer journey with his diverse business, athletic coaching, and law enforcement expertise, he delivers compelling yet relatable presentations for conferences, virtual events, panels, meetings, and seminars.
Terry is the Founder of Motivational Check LLC and has a Bachelor of Science degree in Business Administration from The Citadel and a Master's degree from Boston University.
He has been an NCAA Division I college basketball player, a marketing executive, a hospital administrator, a customer service manager, a SWAT Hostage Negotiator, a business owner, a high school basketball coach, and a cancer warrior.
He is the author of the book Sustainable Excellence, Ten Principles To Leading Your Uncommon and Extraordinary Life. Terry has been featured in Authority, Thrive Global, and Human Capital Leadership magazines. In addition, he is quoted in the new book, Audaciousness, Your Journey To Living A Bold And Authentic Life by Maribel Ortega and Helen Strong
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Resources discussed in this episode:
“Supercommunicators: How to Unlock the Secret Language of Connection” by Charles Duhigg“The Anxious Generation” by Jonathan Haidt“Do Hard Things” by Steve Magness__
Contact Sara Sheehan | Sara Sheehan Consulting:
SaraWSheehan.comSara Sheehan on LinkedInMeet with SaraContact Terry Tucker:
Website: MotivationalCheck.comBook: “Sustainable Excellence: Ten Principles To Leading Your Uncommon And Extraordinary Life” by Terry TuckerLinkedInYouTube__
Transcript
Sara Sheehan: [00:01:33] Hi there, I'm Sara Sheehan and welcome to my podcast Transformational Thinkers with Sara Sheehan. Today I'm speaking with Terry Tucker. He is a speaker, author and international podcast guest on the topics of motivation, mindset and self-development. He has a Business Administration degree from The Citadel where he played NCAA Division One college basketball, which I love, and a master's degree from Boston University. He held many diverse professional roles in his career, including being a marketing executive, a hospital administrator, a SWAT hostage negotiator, and most recently for the past 12 years, a true cancer warrior. He is the author of the book Sustainable Excellence: Ten Principles to Leading Your Uncommon and Extraordinary Life, and he is featured as an author of the new book Perspectives on Cancer: Stories of Healing, Hope and Resilience. He has been published in Authority Magazine, Thrive Global and Human Capital Leadership magazines. He is also continuing to write and has a current book underway, which we will discuss today. Terry, I am so excited to have you in conversation today. Thank you so much for taking time out of your busy schedule to shed light on all that you've learned in your very fascinating career and life.
Terry Tucker: [00:03:33] Well, Sara, thanks for having me on. I'm really looking forward to talking with you today.
Sara Sheehan: [00:03:37] Thank you so very much. Terry, in your career, I find it fascinating that you pivoted from traditional business roles into being a SWAT hostage negotiator. And I know that choosing an opportunity in law enforcement was very important to you personally. What would you say that you learned when you went into that role?
Terry Tucker: [00:04:09] I think one of the biggest things that I'm proud of in my life is that I never let my dream die. As you mentioned, my first two jobs were in the business world. I was in the corporate headquarters of Wendy's International, the hamburger chain, my marketing role. And then I went to work for the hospital that had treated my father and my grandmother before they had passed away of cancer. So, just a little bit of the back story. My dad's father, my grandfather, was a Chicago police officer from 1924 to 1954, and in 1933, he was shot in the line of duty with his own gun. It was not a serious injury, he was shot in the ankle. When I expressed an interest in going into law enforcement, my dad recalled all the stories my grandmother used to tell of that knock on the door. Mrs. Tucker, grab your son, come with us. Your husband's been shot. And my dad was, absolutely not. You're going to college, you're going to major in business. You're going to get out. You're going to get married, have 2.4 kids and live happily ever after. But that's the job, that's the role, that's the life my father wanted me to live. That wasn't the life that I felt I was supposed to live. And so when I graduated from college, my father was dying of cancer, and I had probably my first big adult decision choice to make.
Terry Tucker: [00:05:32] I could have said, sorry dad, I know you're dying of cancer, but I'm going to go do my own thing and blaze my own trail, or out of love and respect for you, I will do what you want me to do. And so that's where my first two jobs were in business. And I sort of joke, I did what every good son did. I waited till my father passed away and I followed my own dreams. And I know I'm not unique in that. I know there are a lot of people out there probably listening to us that, somebody in their family wants them to go into the family business or wants them to be a lawyer, like dad was a lawyer or whatever it ends up being. And that's not what they feel they're supposed to do. That's not what they feel is their calling. And that's a really hard thing, I think, to deal with, especially when it's a family member. And when it's a family member that's doing it, not because they're trying to hurt you or out of spite, but because they love you and they want something that they feel is better for you. So I guess that's kind of a long-winded answer to your question, but like I said, I am incredibly proud that I never let my dream, my purpose die. And I actually made that pivot to go into law enforcement at 37 years of age.
Sara Sheehan: [00:06:36] That's amazing. Talk with us a little bit about how that helped you live out your purpose.
Terry Tucker: [00:06:43] I guess I need to back up a little bit. We, I think a lot of times, talk about purpose as a singular thing or a singular event. And at least in my life, purpose has been plural. It's been purposes. When I was younger, I felt my purpose was to be an athlete. And then, as I said, I felt my purpose was to get into law enforcement. And now, in all honesty, with my cancer, is I'm probably coming towards the end of my life. I feel my purpose has shifted or pivoted again to put as much goodness, positivity, motivation, and love back into the world as I can. We always like to think that if we could have that purpose, that it would be aligned with our job or our occupation. That would be great. But it doesn't have to be. Your job could be over here, it's what you do to pay the bills, but your purpose is over here. To be a podcast host or to be an author or a painter or an activist or whatever you feel. I'll end with this, and I tell this especially when I speak to young people, if there's something in your heart, something in your soul that you feel you're supposed to do, but it scares you, go ahead and do it. Because at the end of your life, the things you're going to regret are not going to be those things you did. They're going to be those things you didn't do. And by then, it's going to be too late to go back and do them.
Sara Sheehan: [00:08:10] That is absolutely beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing that with me and with our listeners. In conversation with you, Terry, you had mentioned to me one of the things that you learned in being a SWAT hostage negotiator, that you learned an awful lot about listening, asking the right questions, having effective communication in those very difficult situations. And you had shared with me that it's only about 7% is how you communicate a message, where 38% of it are the actual words that you use, and 55% of what you're doing in communicating is the actual body language or expressions that you're bringing to the message that you're sending to the other party. I do find that fascinating. And so if you could talk a little bit about what went into you learning more about how you convey a message effectively and get someone to communicate with you that may not want to.
Terry Tucker: [00:09:39] That 7/38/55 formula that I was given when I became a hostage negotiator applies to how we, not just police officers and that, but how we as human beings communicate with each other. And the interesting thing about that is understanding that as we were negotiating with people, if somebody was barricaded with a gun in a room, I was not in the room with that person. I, more than likely, was blocks away talking on the phone, so I didn't have the benefit of that 55% of seeing body language or facial expressions. For example, of saying something, well, Sara, what do you think about this? And then have you kind of roll your eyes and be like, oh, I can't believe he said that to me. I didn't have that luxury. So we got good at figuring things out, certainly based on what people were saying or telling us, but also what they weren't saying and how they were saying it. The overarching theme of what we were doing, and I think the overarching thing of any relationship that you have in your life, whether it's with your spouse, your kids, your boss, your friends, whatever, is trust. If you don't trust that person, it's very hard to have any kind of relationship. So we were trying to build trust with an individual that number one, was probably having the worst day of their life. If you're talking to me and your house or apartment is surrounded not by the police. Yeah, not having a good day.
Sara Sheehan: [00:11:04] Not having a good day.
Terry Tucker: [00:11:06] And secondly, somebody we've never met, and in many cases, had no idea why we were there. What precipitated this? What got us to this point? So we were trying to develop trust, and we did that through empathy. And empathy was basically, for example, if you and I were negotiating, it would be, well, Sara, help me to understand where you're coming from. And the big word there is understand, because I want to understand where you're coming from. I'm not necessarily going to agree with you. If you're a homicide suspect that just killed three people, I'm not going to say what you did was right. But I need to understand where you're coming from, because empathy builds trust. And trust gets to a point where I can try to change behavior, getting you out safely or getting the hostages out safely.
Sara Sheehan: [00:11:55] This is so applicable in many environments. It doesn't have to just be in a hostage situation. Learning to have a better conversation is applicable in any part of your life. One of the books that I'm reading right now is very applicable in this discussion. It's by Charles Duhigg and it is Supercommunicators: How to Unlock the Secret Language of Connection. It is a wonderful book. He proposes that there are truly only three conversations that we have in life. They are practical conversations, where we're trying to get to answer the question, what's this really about? There are emotional conversations that help us understand how we feel about something. And then finally, there are social conversations that define who we are. By recognizing the type of conversation that we're having, we can seek to connect with the others in the conversation more if the tactics that we use match up with the type of conversation that we're having. In your situation, you were in a very high-stress, high-stakes situation. If you could understand more about what's going on for the individual in that very difficult position, you might be able to find a way to negotiate with them that would work, correct?
Terry Tucker: [00:13:42] Absolutely. We used to talk about what we did, we tried to make it simple. We've all been, when we're little kids, to the park and played on the teeter-totter or the see-saw. When we started negotiating with somebody, usually their emotional brain was way up in the air and their rational brain was down on the ground. And by asking open-ended questions, we would use 'how and what' questions, we would stay away from 'why' questions. Because if, for example, if I said to you, well, Sara, why did you wear that today? Wait a minute, do you not like what I'm wearing? 'Why' questions sound accusatory. So we would use 'how' and 'what' questions, and we would get the person to burn off a lot of that emotional energy and try to get that teeter-totter to equilibrium. And then by continuing to talk, to dialog, hopefully get to the point where the person's rational brain was up in the air and their emotional brain was down on the ground. Because we all make better decisions for ourselves using our rational brain than our emotional. We would never, I mean, it could be hours into the conversation. We were not talking about solutions.
Sara Sheehan: [00:14:58] Understood. You're just trying to get them to calm down. Clearly it's an emotional discussion. Clearly it is. Trying to get someone to get out of their head, literally, and calm down, cool off and have a little bit more of a level frame of mind was critical. Tell me, Terry, what would you like to double down on, or focus on, so that you can have more impact in your life?
Terry Tucker: [00:15:35] I'm going to shift gears a little bit now, and I would say it would be connection. One of the nurses who cares for me now, I still have tumors in my lungs, gave me a book called Imagine Heaven, and it's about people who had near-death experiences and many interesting things in the book. But one of the big things I took away was that no matter who the person having that near-death experience saw or encountered, the one question almost everybody got asked is how do you treat my people? In other words, how do we treat each other? How do we connect with each other? How do we work together with each other? If COVID taught us anything, it's how much we need each other. When we were isolated, and today we are isolated. We've got these devices that we take, well, how I feel today depends on what's said on this device. We put our sunglasses on and our earbuds on and we walk around like, don't talk to me, don't involve me. I don't want to have anything to do with you. We need that connection. We are better together than we are separately. I mean, during COVID, alcoholism rates went up, drug abuse rates went up, domestic violence rates went up, divorce rates went up. Because we're not good separate. We need each other. So the answer to your question is connection. I'm looking for more connection with people in my life. It's not money, it's not power, it's not influence. It's connection with other human beings.
Sara Sheehan: [00:17:06] That is so critical. And I believe it's very healing when we're able to truly plugin with another person and engage in a transformational way. It's so powerful. I'm also reading right now a book called The Anxious Generation which I highly recommend, and it actually speaks at length about how bad technology is in social media and how it's changing childhood in a negative way. So you're on to much more than what you're just feeling in your heart. There's many hypotheses out there about how we need to connect with others at a much deeper level, to make our world a better place to live. Literally. Tell me, Terry, what do you think you've learned on your cancer journey?
Terry Tucker: [00:18:15] I've learned a lot of things, but two important things that I've learned are, number one, I don't think you really know yourself until you've been tested by some form of adversity in your life. And if you live long enough, you're going to be tested by adversity. Something bad is going to happen to you. The writer Ernest Hemingway had a great quote that went, life breaks everyone, and afterward many are stronger at the broken places. So as I said, you're going to experience adversity in your life. Somebody close to you is going to die. You're unexpectedly going to get let go from your job. You're going to find out you have a chronic or a terminal illness. Life is going to beat you to your knees, but you can also learn from that and rise from that and be stronger. So I don't think you know yourself until you've been tested by adversity. And the second thing, and this is going to sound really crazy, is cancer has made me a better human being. It's made me focus on the things that I think are really important in life. I mean, when I was young and playing sports, I mean, was it nice? Yeah. Was it fun? Absolutely. But was it important? Probably not. And now that I don't have a left leg because of my cancer, I'm in a wheelchair, you kind of balance those things. And I think when you can't do what you're good at, you do what's important in life. And that's what I've been doing. And I don't think, honestly, if you ask me, if you could live your life over again without cancer, I'm not so sure that I would, because I think cancer has made me a better human being.
Sara Sheehan: [00:19:52] That is deeply profound. That's remarkable, it truly is. And it tells me that in your heart, you know that your transformation is truly significant.
Terry Tucker: [00:20:08] Yeah, I would absolutely agree with that. Like I said, it focuses you on what's important. For me, what's important are what I call my three F's. Faith, family and friends. That's really, to me, what's important in life.
Sara Sheehan: [00:20:20] And focusing on what's important makes every day better. And so, Terry, I know that you are continuing to be active in writing and in authoring books, and I know that you have one that you're currently working on, and I would love to talk about it if you're open to it today. Talk with me about what you're currently writing and what you're writing about.
Terry Tucker: [00:20:48] So I'm writing my second book that focuses more on service. My first book was a book I felt about success, how I saw success or how I thought people could be successful. When I wrote that book, I always kind of had an itch, so to speak, that I need to write a book, or I'd like to write a book about another word that begins with S, and that word is service. And so this second book is more about not necessarily how you can be successful, but how you can be of service to yourself, to your family, to your friends, to your community. And don't get me wrong, I think you can be both. I think you can be successful and be a servant in life. I learned a lot in college about servant leadership. I went to a military college and I learned about servant leadership. Leaders eat last, how you support people, how you care for them, how you make them better. Another one I always speak to young people, I always tell them this. It's more important who you work with and for, than it is the work that you do. Find people that care about you. Find people that are willing to invest in you. Find people that want you to be successful, and hitch your wagon to those people and climb your mountains together.
Sara Sheehan: [00:22:10] That is amazing advice. I hope that anyone that is at the beginning of their career, in their earlier days, that they are listening and they are taking that to heart because that is absolutely right on. The people that you grow with will be the people that take care of you. And if you're not in a position where you're growing, find people that will help you grow in the right way. So that is absolutely beautiful. Is there one through-line that you could describe in the book that's the most important message?
Terry Tucker: [00:22:59] I've got these ten principles in the book, and I don't think any of them are necessarily more important than the other. Although the more I think about it, the more you ask that question, I think there is one. And it's the last principle. It's the importance of love in our life. And I'm not talking about romantic kind of love. When I was younger, I was a big fan of a basketball coach at the University of California at Los Angeles by the name of John Wooden. I read everything he wrote, I read articles about him. And I remember one day I was listening to an interview that he was giving with a sports reporter, and I was sitting there with a pad of paper and a pencil, and I was ready to, come on, coach, give me some good X's and O's, things that I could use on the basketball court. The reporter asked him, what's the most important thing that you want your players to learn or to understand or to come away with, from their time as basketball players at UCLA? And I'm on the edge of my seat, alright here, this could be something great. And he said, I want my players to understand the importance of love. As a 13-year-old kid, I was like, no! Love, are you kidding me? I could care less about love. Come on, coach, give me something good. But what he was saying with that is, I want my players to understand the importance of loving themselves, of loving what they do, of loving their teammates and things like that. And I didn't get that as a 13-year-old kid. I was not emotionally intelligent enough to understand that. But as I've grown, and I think that's why I put it as the last principle in the book, that love is the most important thing that any of us will ever experience or ever do in our lives.
Sara Sheehan: [00:24:35] I really appreciate you sharing that. And I think that there are so many people in the world that would be happier at work and in their personal life if they had more love, whether it is their boss and how their boss treats them, their team at work and how they work together, their family at home, and how they conduct themselves and care for one another. More love is absolutely transformational. I can't wait to read the book, Terry, I can't wait to read it. Talk with me about what your big goals and aspirations are that you're currently working on.
Terry Tucker: [00:25:26] I don't focus that much anymore on goals, so to speak. I look at the processes that I have in my life. Are those processes where they need to be? How can I make them better? How are they serving me in terms of my life and things like that? I figure if I've got the processes in place that the goals or the things that I'm interested in will come with those things. In all honesty, I want to connect with other people to get more information out there about disease, about how you can overcome it, how you can fight it. I think cancer, I had this discussion with my oncologist a couple of weeks ago, cancer's getting to be, it used to be a death sentence. Oh my God, I got cancer. I'm going to die. There's nothing I can do. And I think cancer is moving more from a death sentence to more of a chronic illness. You may have it for your entire life, but you're going to be able to live a decent life with that because they have so many different things. When I was diagnosed in 2012, I was told I'd be dead in two years. And now, 12-plus years later, I'm still here. I'm dealing with a chronic disease and I probably will for my whole life.
Sara Sheehan: [00:26:38] Exactly. I definitely experienced that myself with my father's case, in that he had very advanced colorectal cancer that he was diagnosed with, and he was told he had a very small chance of living a few years, and he ended up living 15 years. And it wasn't enjoyable or pretty for him. But that, I believe, was the beginning of them being able to treat and find pathways to help someone continue forward. I'm hopeful that treatment will truly progress in future years, where the patient can retain more choices in what they do and retain a higher quality of life is what I would say. Very interesting. One of the comments that you shared with me there really tells me that if you're looking at the processes that are in your life, you're thinking about what your habits are. And if you're thinking about what your habits are and what you're doing, you're tuned in to where you are on the healthy scale.
Terry Tucker: [00:28:05] I would absolutely agree.
Sara Sheehan: [00:28:08] Interesting. Very good stuff. Terry, what does being a transformational thinker mean to you?
Terry Tucker: [00:28:15] I guess I would equate it to being a lifelong learner, of never being to a point where I've figured it all out or I know it all. I would, in all honesty, like to die learning. And I think if you can take that knowledge and apply it in your life. Think about it. What does that mean? I don't think we think enough. We don't spend enough time with ourselves. I read a really great book called Do Hard Things by a man by the name of Steve Magness, and he talks about a study that was done at the University of Minnesota, where they took students, put them in a room with nothing else. No devices, no pens, pencils, anything. Just a table, a chair. And the only other thing in the room was a buzzer, and they asked the student to stay in there 15, 20 minutes. Not a long time. And it was amazing, 68% of the men and 25% of the women pressed that buzzer. And when you press the buzzer, and you knew this, you were going to get an electric shock. What the study basically concluded was, we're not comfortable in our own skin. We're not comfortable with our own thoughts. So I think being a transformational thinker means being able to be comfortable with our own thoughts, and then taking those thoughts and applying them to the world outside of us to make life better for ourselves and for others.
Sara Sheehan: [00:29:36] That is a great book, by the way. Doing Hard Things. And that's something that I feel like we as a society have gotten off rails with a bit. So I definitely appreciate that mention. And yes, we need to get more comfortable not only with ourselves, but being present and being mindful seems to be a huge task today. Very difficult and trying for some people. Excellent. Terry, is there anything else that you are working on that you would like to share?
Terry Tucker: [00:30:13] I'm also working on working with two doctors to basically do a webinar that sort of marries the traditional western medicine with some of the other things, in terms of what we eat, meditation, things like that. Not throwing the baby out with the bathwater, but maybe finding the best of both worlds that can help people from a medical point of view, and also from a mental or a mindset point of view as well.
Sara Sheehan: [00:30:41] Yes, I love the idea of making sure that we're taking note of what we're eating and what else we can do that might be more natural or organic and less harmful. I will be very interested to see what comes of that discussion, and would love to even share it if there's a link that I could share in the future with my network or listeners. Excellent. And so, Terry, tell me, how would our listeners find you?
Terry Tucker: [00:31:16] I have a website/blog called Motivational Check. Every day I put up a thought for the day, and with that thought usually comes a question. But Motivational Check is the easiest way to get a hold of me. You can leave me a message there and I respond to everybody who reaches out.
Sara Sheehan: [00:31:33] Excellent. Well, Terry, I can't tell you how much I appreciate your time and appreciate your story. You have so much light and positivity to share that the world desperately needs.
Terry Tucker: [00:31:47] Well, Sara, thanks for having me on. I really enjoyed talking with you.
Sara Sheehan: [00:31:50] Excellent. Well, thanks so much.
Sara Sheehan [00:31:52]: Thank you so much for listening to Episode 18. We had such a fabulous conversation. Three big takeaways from my discussion with Terry Tucker include: First, pursuing purpose and overcoming fear. Terry Tucker emphasizes the importance of pursuing one's true purpose in life despite fear or external objections. He shares his personal journey of transitioning from traditional business roles to becoming a SWAT hostage negotiator, driven by personal significance over familial expectations. This reflects the underlying message of not letting fear dictate your life's direction to avoid future regrets. Second, effective communication and building trust. Drawing from his experience as a negotiator, Tucker highlights that effective communication relies heavily on body language and tone, not just words. Building trust through empathetic and open ended conversations, especially in difficult or high stakes situations like hostage negotiations, is crucial. These skills are applicable in various settings, emphasizing the importance of connection and understanding in human interactions. Third, integrating love and empathy for a fulfilled life. Tucker shares insights learned from legendary basketball coach John Wooden about loving oneself, loving what one does and loving others. He underscores the necessity of incorporating love and empathy in both personal and professional relationships to lead a happier and more meaningful life. His focus on serving others, and his evolving perspective on goals and processes, particularly in the face of his chronic illness and advocacy for cancer research, further illustrate the principle. Thank you so much for joining us for this fascinating conversation with Terry Tucker. I do hope that you will share your thoughts in the comments, and that you will subscribe and never miss an episode.
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Sara Sheehan’s guest in this episode is Linda Fisk, the Founder and Chairwoman of LeadHERship Global, a community of unstoppable women enhancing their leadership blueprint and embracing their power. Linda is an award-winning CEO, TEDx speaker, best-selling author, keynote speaker, and university professor. She talks with Sara about the goals and successes of LeadHERship Global, the power of women, and what she sees coming up in her future.
Linda found her genius work by being part of leadership organizations that allowed her to meet other inspirational leaders. Leaders coming together who align against a particular challenge or issue create a greater impact and accelerate success. This understanding and love for leadership alignment translated into creating the global community of LeadHERship Global where she found like-minded leaders collaborating for a supportive community where women have access to the same privileges and benefits that men benefit from.
Sara Sheehan and Linda Fisk discuss how LeadHERship Global ushers members into high-powered C-Suite positions or inspires them to start their own businesses, why sustainable impact and giving back are a vital part of what they work on, and the partnership with She Talks that provides a speaker summit only for women. Linda shares her own story and the goals and ambitions that drive her forward, including an opportunity called The InvestHER Fest to connect entrepreneurs to investors. What Linda has to say is enlightening and deeply inspirational. Her devotion to the betterment of opportunities for women and the desire to uplift all women into impactful change will challenge us all to realize our best potential.
About Linda Fisk:
Linda Fisk is a multi-award-winning leader, keynote speaker, podcast host, TEDx speaker, best-selling author and university professor dedicated to amplifying and extending the success of other high-calibre business leaders. She is the CEO of LeadHERship Global, a community of unstoppable women enhancing their leadership blueprint and embracing their power to be the best version of themselves- in work and life. As Chairwoman of LeadHERship Global, Linda supports and guides ambitious, creative women to move in the direction of their purpose, their mission and their dreams with powerful connections, critical support, practical tools and valuable resources to show up, speak up and step up in their careers and personal lives.
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Contact Sara Sheehan | Sara Sheehan Consulting:
SaraWSheehan.comSara Sheehan on LinkedInMeet with SaraContact Linda Fisk:
Website: LeadHERshipGlobal.comEmail: [email protected] Fisk LinkedInLeadHERship Global LinkedInLeadHERship Global Instagram__
Transcript
Sara Sheehan: [00:00:02] Hi there, I'm Sara Sheehan and welcome to my podcast Transformational Thinkers with Sara Sheehan. Today I'm talking with Linda Fisk, founder and chairwoman of LeadHERship Global, a community of unstoppable women enhancing their leadership blueprint and embracing their power to be the best version of themselves in work and in life. In LeadHERship Global, Linda supports and guides ambitious, creative women to move in the direction of their purpose, their mission, and their dreams with powerful connections, critical support, practical tools, and valuable resources to show up, speak up, and step up in their careers and personal lives. Linda is a multi-award winning CEO, TEDx speaker, five times international best-selling author, US Senator for the WBAF, keynote speaker and university professor, dedicated to amplifying and extending the success of other high-caliber business leaders. She is the Chairwoman of LeadHERship Global, an organization that I find truly fascinating. Linda, I am so excited to welcome you here today and to launch into this amazing discussion.
Linda Fisk: [00:01:32] Sara, thank you so much for letting me be a part of this incredible platform that you've created. I'm really honored and I'm excited about our conversation today.
Sara Sheehan: [00:01:42] Excellent, Linda, thank you so much for that warm welcome. Can you share with me how you found your genius work?
Linda Fisk: [00:01:53] Well, I will tell you that I have had the good fortune of being a part of many leadership organizations. In fact, I served as the chief marketing officer for one executive leadership organization, and I served as the CEO of a second executive leadership organization, where I found that when leaders are able to come together and they're able to collaborate and coordinate efforts, then their impact can be doubled or tripled. I have found that these kinds of organizations allow you to meet other inspirational leaders, create lifelong friendships, and be surrounded by people who are deeply invested in your success. And I have found that incredible leaders coming together aligned against a particular issue or problem or challenge that they want to solve in-community, then not only is the impact greater, but they're able to accelerate the success together in a much quicker time frame, a much quicker pace than they could have by themselves. And so I knew that my purpose is to bring leaders together to create and support personal and professional breakthroughs. And in LeadHERship Global, we try to guide women to achieving greater leverage and greater freedom, both in their careers and in their businesses and their life.
Sara Sheehan: [00:03:30] That is so incredibly powerful, and I cannot wait to work with you in that community, because I definitely will be a member of your community soon. I find what you're doing to be truly amazing. One of the things that I'm so intrigued about in your story, Linda, is the fact that you created your business after being the Chief marketing officer of the Young Presidents Organization. How did you know that this was the right next step for you after being in that role?
Linda Fisk: [00:04:08] I will say that YPO is one of the most successful and one of the most impactful organizations that you can be a part of, but the percentage of women that are a part of that organization is still extraordinarily small. At the time that I served in a C-suite position in YPO, the percent of women that was a part of that global organization of about 36,000 members, it was only 5%. And so somewhere between 5 and 10% of their global organization was comprised by women. The more that I began to dig into that to understand why, why would so few women join YPO and stay there? I found that women often didn't feel valued. They didn't feel listened to. They didn't feel honored and respected. Not by the management team, but by other members. And so I wanted to create an organization where women were inspired and motivated by other women leaders who would counsel them, who would cheer them on, who would support them to greater and greater levels of success and impact. I wanted to create a global organization where women felt honored, they felt valued, and they had access to the same sorts of privileges and benefits and unique opportunities that men typically are able to engage in.
Linda Fisk: [00:05:36] We now have a global community of world-class women, thought leaders and experts that are brought together to really collaborate and facilitate excellent outcomes for each other. We've created an incredibly impactful community of extraordinary women in leadership all around the globe. We have women in Africa and Europe, Australia, New Zealand, North America, South America, and we offer a pretty comprehensive methodology that's really designed to unleash the full potential of women in leadership all around the world. We want to attract high-performing and growth-oriented leaders and provide a safe, confidential, supportive and private community for them so that they can be transparent, they can be vulnerable, they can be honest about the challenges they're facing, the opportunities in front of them, and they have the benefit of unbiased, objective guidance and feedback from other women around the world who will tell them the truth, who will lift them up, who will provide counsel, who will really help them accelerate their success.
Sara Sheehan: [00:06:47] And so just to double click on that a little bit, some of the participants, well, all of the participants in the community are women and all of the participants are entrepreneurs. Most have built their own businesses themselves and they are seeking support. They are seeking practical tools and guidance that will help them. Can we give a couple of specific examples of some of the things that a participant might be able to engage in, in the community?
Linda Fisk: [00:07:26] Absolutely. So the first thing I would note is that while the majority of the women that are part of LeadHERship Global have stepped into a role as business owner, business and founder, we also have a significant number of women who are business investors or who have been placed into the C-suite in a position like CEO, CTO, CMO at a large corporation. That corporation can be for-profit or nonprofit. But sometimes the Women in LeadHERship Global have been hired into a C-suite position. Other times, they have created their own business and they are now a business owner, a business founder, and leading incredible impact and change around the world by creating their own, usually social impact organization. So most of the women in LeadHERship Global are committed to some sort of social impact or social good or some sort of really positive change in the world. And so that's why I say that part of the benefit of LeadHERship Global is to meet inspirational leaders, to create not just lifelong friendships, but be surrounded by people who are deeply invested in your success. And so that's one of the first benefits that we offer is this idea of connection. But we also provide incredible learning events. What I have found is the very best leaders that I've ever met, both men and women, have embarked on a continuous discovery of learning, so they are lifetime learners that are deeply invested in their own development as a professional and as a person.
Linda Fisk: [00:09:15] So we provide learning that informs that perspective and nurtures new skill sets, new perspectives, new worldviews, new aptitudes. Because at every single stage of your career, you have to learn how to create sustainable impact and influence. And so, in LeadHERship Global, we have trust forms, leadership boards, accelerate webinars, we have global networking events. We have council meetings where we're able to showcase some of the most impactful world-class experts in business, in health, in spiritual development, in a range of topics that women have access to, again, at no charge, just through their membership. And then we also recognize that a big part of being able to grow and scale a business and to advance your own leadership journey is that you need to learn how to better serve others and to genuinely support their career advancement and their overall engagement and work. So we help women all over the world not only receive incredible access to funding and media opportunities and learning and connection, but we also help them become mindful of the opportunity and the responsibility that they have to serve their own advancement by serving others.
Linda Fisk: [00:10:46] We really believe that the most important sense of fulfillment and reward that you can receive is by giving back. That fulfilling feeling of giving back and contributing to others is absolutely unparalleled. In my estimation, true meaning, true purpose is about how you're able to better the lives of the people around you, your loved ones, the people in your community, the lives of the people in other places around the world. Meaning never comes from what you get, it comes from what you give. And so we provide opportunities to find ways to give back and to make an impact to other women around the world.
Sara Sheehan: [00:11:30] I love it, and it is very aligned with the way that I lead and the way I want to lead and leave an impact on others. I think it's quite beautiful. How are you expanding your business today, Linda?
Linda Fisk: [00:11:47] I will tell you, we are always looking for opportunities with partners. So we have found that there are particular businesses that are very aligned in our mission and vision and purpose, but they have unique specialties that we don't. So we very intentionally and purposefully partner with aligned organizations and businesses that provide extraordinary opportunities for our members. So, for instance, we partnered recently with an organization called She Talks and they provide speaker summits only for women.
Sara Sheehan: [00:12:27] That's tremendous.
Linda Fisk: [00:12:29] Yes, and through that organization, we're able to offer our members the opportunity to step on a big stage in front of 5000 people and tell their story. So we have orderly speakings now. I think that's so important.
Sara Sheehan: [00:12:46] That is so powerful. It's so rare for some people to get that opportunity. And the fact that you're helping them to develop that skill in a safe way is wonderful for someone that's proactive and growth-oriented, because if they lean into it, they're only going to get better.
Linda Fisk: [00:13:09] Right. Sara, you said it so beautifully, that's it. And so we look for organizations like that. We also recently announced a partnership with a company called Scroobious, and Scroobious teaches and trains and coaches and consults with entrepreneurs so that they can win that ever-elusive venture capital investment. Scroobious teaches women entrepreneurs how to create a pitch deck, how to create a pitch presentation, how to organize their financials, how to weave their story into the pitch, and how to win over investors that may be looking to invest in a series A or a series B, or it may be an angel investor or a venture capitalist firm that's interested in supporting women owners, women operators. And so we help prepare women entrepreneurs to step into that boardroom with investors and be able to very convincingly, very confidently explain their vision, explain their mission, explain their business and receive that needed infusion of cash.
Sara Sheehan: [00:14:21] That is phenomenal that you're mentoring women in that way, because that pays more than dividends. It truly paves the road ahead for their lives. That is phenomenal. Do you have any offerings that you're working on that are new, or ways that you're working with clients that are new?
Linda Fisk: [00:14:45] I love that you asked that. Thank you so much. We are always working on new offerings, new benefits, new privileges, new experiences for women in leadership. We want this to be a never-ending opportunity to be able to accelerate their success, no matter if their definition of success is: I want to write my first book, I want to stand on a TEDx stage, I want to have an award-winning podcast, I want to grow and scale my business from $1 million to $10 million, or $10 million to $100 million. Whatever their unique definition of success is, we want to give them access to the privileges, the benefits, the opportunities that will strengthen that position, but also accelerate the timeline to get to that vision, that goal, that objective. So one of the things that we have coming up that I'm super excited about is a global retreat. So this fall we're going to be announcing very shortly a global retreat where women have the opportunity to come together to network, to build relationships, to be able to learn and grow in community in one of the most picturesque, beautiful spots in the world. So more on that soon. But we are also getting ready to announce a new opportunity for women entrepreneurs to step into the limelight with their business idea or their fledgling business, and actually pitch it to investment groups. So we're calling it The InvestHERfest. And the InvestHERfest will connect entrepreneurs to investors so that they have an opportunity, much like Shark Tank, to present their idea, to demonstrate their vision, to explain their financials and to win investment dollars. So we're very, very excited about that.
Sara Sheehan: [00:16:42] That's incredible.
Linda Fisk: [00:16:43] And we're launching a series called Ask The Experts. Ask The Experts is an opportunity where our members have the incredible opportunity to step into the limelight by having a huge virtual event developed in their honor, where they get to teach and train and coach on their area of expertise to our other 10,000 members all around the world. So they step into the spotlight, it is their event, and we help them prepare their presentation and then present to our members about their area of expertise, their unique giftedness, experience, expertise that provides value to our members, but also raises the visibility and expands the thought leadership of that member.
Sara Sheehan: [00:17:36] That is unprecedented, and it's a large list. That is an amazing list of things that you're working on, Linda. That is amazing.
Linda Fisk: [00:17:48] I feel it every day, Sara. I am scurrying. We all are, on the team, working as quickly as we can to bring these things to light because there's so much opportunity for women, and we are so dedicated and determined and excited to bring these opportunities to women in leadership.
Sara Sheehan: [00:18:07] That's wonderful. And so, Linda, talk with me about what your big goals and aspirations are that you're currently working on.
Linda Fisk: [00:18:18] Our success is measured through our member success. We take count of the impact that we're able to create on behalf of our members. They report to us any time that they're able to create a new division of their company, or create a joint venture, or a partnership or collaboration that dramatically increases their success. And what I hear from our members are absolutely leaps forward in their ability to accelerate their success, often due to the relationships that they create within the community. I've seen nonprofits get fully funded to the tune of $1.7 million. I've seen new divisions of companies created through a partnership that now represent 37% of the overall revenue of that company. I've seen joint ventures created, collaborations developed. I have seen women get tapped for corporate boards or speaking opportunities because of their experience in LeadHERship Global. We've had women step into really significant speaking roles with a five-figure payout for that speaking role because of a podcast or a TV show or a speaker opportunity that was provided to them through LeadHERship Global. So our definition of success is absolutely contingent on the kinds of experiences and advances that our members are experiencing. We help members accelerate their success by defining their vision, growing their leadership, expanding their influence, and ultimately leaving a lasting legacy.
Linda Fisk: [00:20:10] We track and measure those things with our members, because we want to harness the knowledge, the influence and trust of high-performing women all over the world to stimulate idea exchange, to support creativity, to provide resources and tools that accelerate both personal and professional growth. And, in fact, we also know that we are a trusted resource to women who are in crisis. I have conversations with women every single week who are going through a divorce or the dissolution of a partnership or they've gone through some sort of personal crisis. Maybe they lost a son, a daughter, a mother, a father, and they turn to the team at LeadHERship Global to not only provide support and comfort, but to connect them to the kinds of caregivers that are a part of our network that then can surround them with the kind of support that they need in that time of crisis. Whether that's legal advice or whether that's therapeutic services or counseling services. Sometimes it's simply being surrounded by a group of women that they know care for them, and are deeply invested in their ability to move through this period into the next phase of their journey. So we also support people in their personal lives as well as their professional lives.
Sara Sheehan: [00:21:42] That's a tremendous thing. It's much more than an online community when it becomes part of your life and part of your support network. That's tremendous. And so, Linda, what would you say being a transformational thinker means to you?
Linda Fisk: [00:22:05] Sara, what a great question. I think of impactful leadership as making long lasting, positive and meaningful contributions to organizations, communities, and in the lives of people. So transformational or true impactful leadership is that idea that it's not a transaction, it's not a one-time give and take, but it's about making a long-lasting, meaningful contribution to others. And to do that, I think you have to combine both your mind and your heart. You have to be able to step into a leadership role, recognizing that your mind and your heart need to both be active. You have to achieve sustainable goals and build lasting impact that is led by both your intuition, your heart, as well as your mind. And I think that to lead and achieve sustainable goals that do build lasting impact, it takes genuine and generous influence. It takes the opportunity to genuinely and generously influence and lead people to believe, to trust, and to join you in your mission. So women, I think, are uniquely well suited in that. In fact, some of the strengths that we take for granted as women actually help lead, especially in high-stakes situations. And I think that one of the most important qualities of a good leader is to be able to understand your unique giftedness, your strengths, your talents, and develop a unique leadership style that's based on your own values, your own character traits, your own talents, and to recognize that as a woman, involving both your heart and your mind in your leadership style is absolutely a strength.
Linda Fisk: [00:24:09] It's not a weakness, it's a strength. Serving with your mind and with your heart, incorporating an attitude of service to genuinely connect with other people in your life and earn their loyalty is one of the highest callings that we have as women and as leaders. And I think you have to be generous. You have to participate in the lives of those around you. You can't be solo, blinders on, focused on your own attainment of goals. You have to be open to participate and genuinely invest in the lives around you. You have to share your knowledge generously with those you lead. You have to be a role model to inspire and motivate people to move forward, and you have to stop and listen to those around you and understand what's happening in their life and how can you support, how can you help? Do you have a resource or a tool or a connection that might be useful to them? And so in my mind, being a transformational or impactful leader is about listening, it's about pausing long enough to really understand what's happening in the lives around you, and it's about consciously and purposefully making long-lasting, positive and meaning contributions in the lives of those around you.
Sara Sheehan: [00:25:33] That is wonderful. I hear so much in your voice about generosity and paying it forward, and I think it only comes back to us as a multiple. When we give, it is surprising at how wonderful that reciprocity is. Thank you for that.
Linda Fisk: [00:25:56] I agree, Sara. I will tell you that the most fulfilling feeling that you can have, is to know that you've been able to impact someone else's life, and you've been able to pay it forward. And as I said, women have been proven to hold a key advantage. And many of the soft skills associated with leadership. In fact, a study by the global consulting firm Hay Group found that women outperform men, and get this, 11 out of 12 key emotional intelligence competencies. In fact, the Hay Group found that women leaders tend to slightly outperform men in most leadership skills associated with emotional intelligence. So those are sometimes considered to be soft skills, but really it's the ability pertaining to the way you approach or handle others in your life. So empathy. Empathy absolutely wins in a crisis. But the difference in leadership between the genders grows even larger when there's any sort of crisis. Female leaders express more awareness of fears that their team members might be feeling. They express more concern for the well-being of their team, and they express, believe it or not, more confidence in their plans. So I will tell you, women have many, many attributes and sort of natural skill sets that they shouldn't try to hide or discount or discard. In fact, they should be doubling down on some of these competencies, like having an authentic communication leadership style, navigating through discomfort, navigating through imposter syndrome. Giving, and receiving actionable feedback.
Sara Sheehan: [00:27:41] Absolutely. Those competencies of emotional intelligence are absolutely critical for success, and they know there's tangible research that if you improve your alignment on those competencies, it has a financial repercussion that is positive in your life. It's phenomenal. That's one of the many books that I'm reading right now, actually. Emotional Intelligence 2.0. And so, Linda, is there anything else that you're working on that you would like to share?
Linda Fisk: [00:28:20] I will say that one of the things that we're really focused on right now is women in leadership in Africa. The currency in Africa, whether it's the niger or the rand, has a valuation that is very devalued as compared to the US dollar or compared to the euro. We recognize that the currency valuation of the currency in different regions around Africa has a valuation that puts the women in Africa at a significant disadvantage. The rest of the world is remarkably expensive. If you're relying on a currency that basically has the valuation of a penny to the US dollar. So in the United States, if you're charging $20 for a service, well, that is like $2,000 to women in Africa. So we are developing a program so that women in Africa in leadership can join LeadHERship Global on scholarship. Because we believe that all women around the world deserve to have access to the same level of influence, thought leadership, learning, connections, resources, tools, media opportunities, funding opportunities as women in the rest of the world.
Sara Sheehan: [00:29:53] That is tremendous.
Linda Fisk: [00:29:54] We want women in Africa to have equal opportunity. So we are providing now a scholarship that allows women in leadership in Africa to have access to the same level of benefits and privileges and opportunities as everyone else. And we're excited about this. This is a very calculated and intentional, purposeful offering that is going to take a lot of work on our part, and it's going to create a lot more demand for my team. But it's something that we've talked about as an organization we absolutely believe in. So we're really excited about that. We think that it's going to enrich our organization as well, because women from all over the world will now be able to tap into the brilliance and the tenacity and the resilience of women in leadership all over Africa. So we're super excited about that.
Sara Sheehan: [00:30:49] That is so powerful. That is a wonderful message to share. It is truly going to diversify your community in a tremendous way. And I can't wait to hear some of the success stories that will come out of it, because there will be people that don't expect to be able to uncover a new goal or aspiration, and actually be able to make it come true with your, and your community's, support. That is awesome. Truly incredible. And so Linda, tell us, how can our listeners find you?
Linda Fisk: [00:31:32] The best way to get in touch with me is simple email. I tend to be really responsive in email, unless somehow it gets redirected to one of my other folders. But my inbox is absolutely sacred to me. If you know my email address, you know I will get back in touch with you. And that is [email protected]. So leadhershipglobal.com. And, we also tend to be really active on most social media platforms. So you're welcome to drop me a note in LinkedIn or Facebook, and I'll absolutely do my best to get back in touch with you. You can drop a note to LeadHERship Global on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter or me, Linda Fisk on all of those platforms as well.
Sara Sheehan: [00:32:24] That is a wonderful invitation to reach out to literally one of the smartest and brightest minds that I've met recently. And Linda, I am so excited about what you're doing. You are absolutely going to change the world, and I'm so excited to share this conversation with my listeners. Thank you so much for your time today.
Linda Fisk: [00:32:51] Thank you, Sara. What a privilege and an honor to be on your platform. You talk about making a real global impact. Your show is going to reach lives and transform them with your messages of hope and resilience, and I just am so excited to see the ripple effects of this podcast.
Sara Sheehan: [00:33:13] Awesome. Thank you so much, Linda.
Sara Sheehan: [00:33:15] Thank you so much for listening to today's episode of Transformational Thinkers with Sara Sheehan, where I had a wonderful conversation with my friend Linda Fisk. CEO, TEDx speaker, founder, and current Chairwoman of LeadHERship Global. Linda's work and wisdom are a testament to the force of impactful leadership and the unique strengths that women bring to the table. There are a few key takeaways that will resonate with leaders everywhere that I'd like to share with you. Integrated leadership for sustainable impact. Combining both mind and heart in leadership roles is essential for driving meaningful, long lasting contributions within organizations, communities, and among people. Leveraging emotional intelligence. Women excel in empathy and emotional intelligence, traits particularly advantageous in high stakes situations. Linda encourages women leaders to not only embrace these natural skills, but also to bolster them through authentic communication and emotional intelligence training, global support, and equal opportunities. LeadHERship Global strives to support women leaders worldwide, focusing on equal opportunities across geographies. An exciting new scholarship program is being developed to assist women in leadership in Africa, combating challenges like devalued currency. Linda's passion for catalyzing positive change is truly inspiring, and it was an honor to feature her on my show. For those looking to amplify their leadership journey, this episode is an absolute must listen. By all means, please subscribe and never miss an episode wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you so much for being a listener. I would love to hear your thoughts in the comments. Have a great day!
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Sara Sheehan’s guest in this episode is Ashley Graham, CEO and founder of The Conscious Publicist. Ashley advocates for purpose-driven businesses and their potential to create positive change which she talks about in depth with Sara. She discusses her motivation for PR and assisting clients in increasing their reach and impact through the carefully curated services she offers. Ashley’s sense of strategy and leadership shine in this conversation.
Through sharing a bit of her personal story, it becomes clear that Ashley has always been drawn to utilizing her extroverted skill set and ability to define thought leadership for the benefit of others. She has an extensive history of PR and marketing so The Conscious Publicist and her desire to empower women in business were a match made in entrepreneurial heaven. Ashley describes how she creates value for her clients through the detailed packages she has to offer.
In this episode, Sara Sheehan and Ashley Graham reflect on Ashley’s guidance of Sara in her publicity journey and how the impact of Ashley’s knowledge greatly aided in Sara’s success. They break down the importance of the market research and the tracking resources Ashley accesses for her clients, how podcasts work to get their messages to a whole new audience, and some of Ashley’s aspirations for the future of her business. What comes across is a business with a clear purpose and a founder, in Ashley, who cares greatly about how thought leadership can benefit the growth of her clients.
About Ashley Graham:
Ashley Graham is a publicist, entrepreneur and thought leader who is widely acknowledged for her approach to business and leadership. Ashley has sharp business acumen and a passion for innovation, which has helped her navigate the complexities of entrepreneurship to become a trailblazer in her industry.
Ashley's exceptional leadership skills and commitment to excellence have been the driving force behind her business. She is dedicated to fostering diversity and empowering women in business, which can be seen in the success and growth of her enterprise. Her strategic advisory, decision-making, and forward-thinking approach have earned her accolades for her contributions to the business world.
Apart from being a business founder, Ashley Graham is also a highly respected PR and thought leadership advisor. Her extensive experience provides valuable insights and guidance to individuals and organizations seeking to enhance their influence and impact. Ashley's ability to navigate the dynamic landscape of PR, media, and thought leadership reflects her deep understanding of industry trends and commitment to driving meaningful change.
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Contact Sara Sheehan | Sara Sheehan Consulting:
SaraWSheehan.comSara Sheehan on LinkedInMeet with SaraContact Ashley Graham:
Website: TheConsciousPublicist.comPodcast: The Conscious Publicist with Ashley GrahamAshley Graham on LinkedIn__
Transcript
Sara Sheehan: [00:00:02] Hi there, I'm Sara Sheehan and welcome to my podcast Transformational Thinkers with Sara Sheehan. Today I'm talking with my friend Ashley Graham, CEO and founder of The Conscious Publicist. She advocates for purpose-driven businesses and their potential to create positive change. With a deep belief in the power of storytelling, Ashley and her team are dedicated to helping clients build meaningful connections and relationships. She considers her work's people relations aspect to be vital in fostering a more conscious and sustainable world by guiding clients and developing the necessary practices and strategies to align their connections with their goals. Ashley aims to shape a future where conscious living is the norm. The Conscious Publicist solves the problem of purpose-driven businesses, digital entrepreneurs and visionaries needing assistance to amplify their message and gain visibility among their target audience by providing tailored PR and media services that align with the client's values and goals. Ashley and her team help create a strong brand identity, increase visibility, and amplify messages that resonate with their intended audience. Ultimately, their mission is to empower these businesses and leaders to positively impact the world. Wow. With that, Ashley, I just want to welcome you. I am so glad to have you here with me today. Can you share with me and our listeners how you found your genius work in PR?
Ashley Graham: [00:01:51] Absolutely. Well, first off, Sara, it's just amazing to be in this space with you. You and I have had an incredible journey together in the space of PR and media. So to have this conversation, I think, it's in full alignment and it's going to be really good.
Sara Sheehan: [00:02:08] Thank you so much I appreciate that.
Ashley Graham: [00:02:11] Yeah, of course. Well, just to start, my journey into PR, I like to say, found me. It was not something that I had intentionally set out to enter into public relations. But with roughly 14,15 years in marketing and PR being an influence in marketing, it was only inevitable that I was going to get to this intersection that I'm in today. As for my entrepreneurial journey, I started my first business in March of 2016 with the hopes to be a full-service marketing and branding agency for conscious businesses. But as I found where my skill set and my personality thrived was more so in the PR and media relations space. I am a very introverted person, but I have extroverted skill sets, extroverted qualities, and just with my personality, I find that the world of PR and media relations, given the capabilities to meet incredible people, I had found my space. But when it comes to the thought leadership part of my industry, or just my work in general, is where I have really found what they like to call your niche. Through my entrepreneur journey, the first eight years or so, being a solo founder and an entrepreneur, I had realized that where marketing and PR and media relations was evolving was really speaking the language of thought leadership. So through years of getting my own PR opportunities to shine in my thought leadership, I had really learned that my specialties and my expertise really lied in thought leadership as it pertained to public relations. So it's kind of an unorthodox journey as to where I found where I am today, but I think that that is one of the most incredible things about entrepreneurship, is you might set out on a path to be in one phase of the business or one industry, but leaving things up to chance and letting yourself evolve and adapt. I really had transitioned and naturally was pulled into the thought leadership space as it pertained to PR and media, and that's really where I found my genius work as you say.
Sara Sheehan: [00:04:42] Excellent. Well I can certainly attest to your effectiveness in the role, having been a client over time with you and having even had the opportunity to see you grow during that time. So I am a full client success story in and of for you and your business, even as a part of the podcast.
Ashley Graham: [00:05:13] Yes, it's so amazing to see where the podcast has transformed since the very early stages. I remember sitting down with you and ideating what your title was going to be, your about copy, just different avenues that you can explore with the podcast. And that's why I really led in with how much of an honor it is to be here, is because I've been able to watch you birth the show into creation and follow along with your guests in their journey since the launch of the show. And it's been amazing to see.
Sara Sheehan: [00:05:51] Thank you so much. It's been a wonderful experience, I will say, and I can even see my own growth in it as well. And so, Ashley, can you define a little bit about your PR expansion program and how you work with clients on it? I believe this is exactly what you did with me, but you can speak to that here today.
Ashley Graham: [00:06:20] Absolutely. So just from the traditional sense, my PR expansion program with The Conscious Publicist is what some of the listeners might recognize as a full-service or all-in representation retainer program with a PR agency. Now, I like to create a little bit of twist with my programs and really have the naming convention of our offers to really speak to the transformation that the service provides. So with the PR expansion program, it really is just that. You're retaining The Conscious Publicist as your publicist and as your PR agency to really expand upon all of your PR and media relations, capacities, or even just room for growth and to adapt and evolve as a business in those spaces and doing all of the management and execution to bring your business into visibility in that space.
Ashley Graham: [00:07:25] So if I was going to again use, Sara, your experience as a client, we really dove into first, the onboarding process of extracting what your core thought leadership expertise was going to be and matching that to high-level research and development to understand exactly what your pulse of thought leadership was going to be in the media. And we were able to come together and work on a number of different articles to get placed in trade publications, worked with a number of podcast hosts to get you shown and highlighted on their platforms, but also one of the other forms of media that I think we really had a lot of success, was taking your quotes and your commentary and different conversations that we had to mold into different content pieces to put out to the right editors and to the right writers to get you placement in those publications or the media that directly aligned with your business. Another thing that I wanted to mention, is something that is managed in our PR expansion program, outside of managing all of our content writing, the media relations part of it, but is really tracking and understanding the digital SEO capacities that digital PR brings. So I know that that was something that you and I looked at very closely, was trying to understand exactly how those efforts were translating into even more reach and visibility for you, your business, online, and how to create those connection points.
Sara Sheehan: [00:09:09] Absolutely, yes. And I can say from my experience in working with you, all of the outlets that we worked with were in alignment with me, the type of work that I do and my personal values. So if there was anything that I didn't feel resonated with the way I wanted to show up, that was a very open point of feedback. You were very open to the discussion of making sure that we were talking with outlets that supported me, and showing up as the professional that I am, and that's something that is very important to me as I talk about PR. I could never work with someone that wasn't focused on serving a client like you are.
Ashley Graham: [00:10:00] You know, you hit on a really incredible point there because I find that outside of showcasing what type of support somebody in Myspace, PR, public relations, what they can do to support a client. It goes so much deeper than just securing opportunities, really making sure that the language and the intentionality of where you're being highlighted aligns with the core values. But there's this space that needs to be nurtured as well as being flexible and adaptable, that even when you think an opportunity is going to be a good fit for the client, sometimes you don't know that it is going to be a good fit unless you've taken those conversations further. So with all of the media contacts that we had built relationships with on behalf of you and your business, there was usually always multiple touching points. It took about maybe three different calls or three different emails to really understand exactly what that piece was going to look like, and if the language and the tone was going to best represent you. And I don't think that that's talked about nearly as much, and I'm going to take this as a good idea to nurture, is the, not nuance things that happen behind the scenes, but the things that a publicist or a PR agency really nurtures for a client, both interpersonally, but then also as it pertains to the business and the goals.
Sara Sheehan: [00:11:35] Absolutely. There's no way that I could have gotten in front of so many people without the support of someone like you, involved in constantly putting me forward in pitches. "Oh my goodness, I think you need to talk with Sara". I could have never accomplished what we accomplished in that amount of time without support and strategic help, that is for sure. If we were to look at what some of your VIP experiences are, can you walk us through them?
Ashley Graham: [00:12:16] Absolutely. So as a strategist, I like to think that I just naturally am a strategist, both from a business perspective, but then also PR and media relations, is I wanted to take on a strategist role for my own business to get a pulse on different conversations that I've had with prospective clients over the years, and see if there was any type of growth strategies or expansion opportunities that I could integrate to serve other clientele as well. So for some context and perspective, I've been primarily retainer-based for eight years in my business. But one of the things that I wanted to birth was these VIP experiences to match other types of clients where they're at in their thought leadership or their PR and media relations journey. So thinking about the different types of VIP experiences, there's three different ones. There's the ideation VIP day, the creation VIP experience, and the transformation VIP experience. To not go fully into all the information about how they are separate or unique from one another, I'll keep it condensed, but starting with the ideation VIP day, is really for the client who is very new to thought leadership. They don't know what their thought leadership identity is, and they're looking to gain valuable insights in a vision map as to what their thought leadership potential is from a publicist who understands the evolutions of media and bringing that narrative to the forefront.
Ashley Graham: [00:14:09] So it's a VIP day, it's basically done in a day to where a client would walk away exactly with their thought leadership positioning, they'd walk away with their core messaging, they'd get an understanding of how to use content and media as a way, as a starting point, to understand the differences of each. Because I know that sometimes people don't have this robust educational background of different forms of media and would need to be educated a bit. That's also included there. And so the goal is for them to walk away, again, with a very strategic thought leadership plan from a very surface level to really understand where they would need to go moving forward with that new plan.
Sara Sheehan: [00:14:51] That's a very high-value day. You get a lot out of that. Just to compare, for someone that might be in a retainer-based situation, like the PR expansion program, that would be the initial few meetings that you have with Ashley. And so that's a comparison.
Ashley Graham: [00:15:16] Yeah, the ideation process is really integrated into that PR expansion program, it's part of the onboarding process. But what I've done is I've extracted that to be able to offer it into a workspace strategy plan for a client, if that's all they wanted, was just an understanding of what their thought leadership identity would look like. That's what they would walk away from.
Sara Sheehan: [00:15:39] That's excellent.
Ashley Graham: [00:15:40] Yeah. Now this is where it kind of gets fun. So going into the creation and transformation VIP experiences, the creation is maybe for the client who already has an understanding of what their thought leadership identity is and they already have kind of a plan and a narrative in place, but they get they struggle with the content. They struggle with understanding what their pitches look like, struggle with what their articles will look like, struggle on where to pitch it, who to pitch it. This is where the creation VIP experience would come in. The client would basically work with me on a, more or less, five-day to a week basis where I would go through that ideation process during our discovery call, during our discovery onboarding process, and within a week they have a database or a workspace that's presented to them with 3 to 6 months of content that they can now use.
Sara Sheehan: [00:16:41] That's impressive. That is very impressive.
Ashley Graham: [00:16:43] So I wanted to give them a basically robust amount of content to walk away from. They will get a custom media list that's curated for them and their industry of publications, editors, writers that pertain to exactly the narrative of what's going to be showcased in those pitches when they send it. But there's also a resources hub on different platforms on how to start nurturing their pitching, articles that I have written that would be able to support their pitching process. They would get a week of consulting after that VIP experience has concluded to help them with any kind of bumps or errors or further clarification that they may need, but it's basically just for thinking about a business plan. It's like a business plan that's handed over to them with the resources, the assets, everything that they would need to support their PR if they were going to manage it themselves.
Sara Sheehan: [00:17:47] That's incredible. If they have a package where they can use, let's say, six different pieces and six different ways, that is very powerful for someone that really wants to do it themselves.
Ashley Graham: [00:18:01] There's a lot of value that a client, or really anybody who's looking to step into thought leadership, would get from an offer like this. And the reason why I felt so passionate about creating these VIP experiences is, the PR expansion program is great. It's definitely for the high-level executive or for a business that does not have the capabilities to manage their own PR, they pass it over to a PR agency publicist like myself to manage it for them. It is done for them. But for a new entrepreneur or a coach or somebody who is in this curiosity phase and really wants to learn what PR and media entails when it comes to shining in their expertise, they get a plan built for them, and then they get to learn the natural flow and what comes with making PR and media a part of their every day.
Ashley Graham: [00:19:08] And then lastly, what's really easy with the transformation VIP experience, is it's blended between ideation and creation. So it's for someone who is ready to think about their PR and media for the next year, if not five years. And they want just basically a whole plan built for them, everything from the ideation process to having the assets and the resources created for them. It's blended between both. But in conclusion, with both of those combined is they do have a thought leadership add-on where they get a thought leadership bio written for them, they get a media kit written for them, and they get speaker topics that might completely align with their ideation vision map that we've created and then any other assets or resources that might be needed, it kind of is a little bit open-ended because every client is unique and they might need more resources or assets versus others. So it's very customizable, it's very open-ended to what the client needs.
Sara Sheehan: [00:20:12] That's incredible. Clients can still work with you on a retainer basis, but if they need something that's more fit for purpose based on where their business is, they have access to that as well, which I think is tremendous. I want for as many listeners as possible to hear this, so that they understand that you don't have to do the month-to-month retainer situation if you really need help on a different scale, it's available to you. That's tremendous.
Ashley Graham: [00:20:50] There's another idea that has always percolated through that whole process, that even for marketing teams that are so strapped with trying to find new, innovative ideas for their own marketing, whether it's social media or for their blog or wherever they're putting their content, newsletters, podcasts. Having an offer or an option like these VIP experiences can also pertain to the marketing teams who just do not have the bandwidth to think about PR or new fresh ideas and where to get those showcased or where to get them seen. I envision that these VIP experiences could be myself working with marketing teams or internal teams to give them other resources that they might not have internally as well. It really is kind of this universal, adaptable offer suite with these VIP experiences. And I think that's what makes it most exciting, because every client in that experience with them could look different.
Sara Sheehan: [00:22:02] For sure. I definitely see tremendous value in the partnership that you could have with marketing, that where a company is really focusing on putting their leaders out there as the voice to the customer, you are a perfect partner for them. So I definitely see where you're headed there and I think it's incredibly high value because you could literally give a company a pre-built set of content that they could use in all kinds of different ways.
Ashley Graham: [00:22:43] Absolutely.
Sara Sheehan: [00:22:44] Very interesting.
Ashley Graham: [00:22:46] Yeah, speaking to that 3 to 6 month worth of content, it's structured in a way that if you were to look for a new angle every single week, then you have an angle for every single week. But say, for instance, you only need one of those topics per month, maybe because you already have so many other topics and conversation starters and circulation. Although it's gauged to be roughly between 3 or 6 months of content, if you only use one of those ideas a month, that can expand over the next 2 or 3 years of content if you already have so much in circulation. It really just is to give a good bulk of content to use. If you are someone starting off that doesn't have content already, you have six months of solid content to use every single week and whatever capability that you want to use it as. But if you already, like I said, have enough content, you can basically expand that content over longer than six months depending on where it's needed.
Sara Sheehan: [00:23:52] That is incredibly high value. I would think the one thing that we haven't talked about here is, looking at your data and analytics so that you see what actually resonated with your audience by looking at views or engagement through comments and likes, if you will, the increase in your number of subscribers. These are things that I'm looking at all the time, and so I'm tailoring my topic list based on what resonated with my audience. And so your new clients can do that as well. Once they get their six-month database and they start using it, they can start looking at all of their numbers wherever it is that they engage, whether it's social media or it's articles, whatever they happen to be using and doing, they can start to see what's resonating and make sure that they use that message in those places.
Ashley Graham: [00:25:09] Absolutely. And speaking to the resource hub that's integrated into both the creation and transformation VIP experiences, is there is a section on how to best track and measure articles or podcast conversations that have been published, because there's a number of different platforms that you can have subscription to track reach impressions. Someone like me has access to that because there needs to be metrics to be supported to the efforts. I give an overview in that resource hub of the best platforms to get some of that information to where you don't have to do it organically. That's the thing is, yes, you can get access to your Google Analytics and have a surface-level overview of like, okay, here's our views, our metrics. But when it comes to getting third-party visibility on publications, you don't always have access to updated numbers in that way because you don't have, again, access to their databases, their resources. So there's platforms out there that can basically bring those metrics to the forefront to show the success rates of different types of PR that you're doing with third-party platforms.
Sara Sheehan: [00:26:33] That's very powerful. That's some really great intel, Ashley, that you can provide that I know would have new and different information that lay persons, those of us that aren't experts like you are, have access to. So that's totally fascinating. Ashley, can you talk with us a little bit about how you're expanding your business today?
Ashley Graham: [00:27:03] Yeah. So, one of the biggest things that has happened recently has been the launch of this new offer suite. So the VIP experiences are new. We just got our updated website published in May of '24.
Sara Sheehan: [00:27:20] Congratulations. That's a big undertaking.
Ashley Graham: [00:27:25] It is, especially when you're thinking about all of the things that go into showcasing offers online for it to hit a mark with the right client. So not only was there copywriting involved, but the website needed to be laid out and structured in a way to make sense. There's also my own SEO that's had to go into the website to support visibility, and so that was kind of two part. The VIP experiences were a big undertaking to really structure in a way that was going to resonate for the right clientele. And then second part with our new updated website published, it is a cleaner way to really speak the language of how we're looking to serve and impact clients through those VIP experiences. But other than that, outside of offerings, our podcast The Conscious Publicist Podcast is always evolving and there's always new, fresh content both that speaks to the language and narrative of what public relations, media relations, thought leadership, all of that entails. But one of the things that I think lights me up is it also brings awareness to different types of experiences that could aid in your thought leadership. We're kind of exploring a grief series right now with a number of leaders who have their own businesses, have their own thought leadership avenues, but are also human beings who go through moments of grief and loss, but happiness and joy and how they navigate being a leader and entrepreneur through having very human experiences. So I'm bringing that narrative to the podcast as well. So it really is a channel that speaks just to the universal landscape of what thought leadership is, because thought leadership is a human having a human experience both personally and professionally, and finding ways to serve and impact others through their experience. So the podcast, like I said, is one of the expanded tools that we're always nurturing.
Sara Sheehan: [00:29:35] Well, I applaud you for the work that you're doing there. It truly reflects your personality and the care that you take in your work. It shows the respect for others and how you see that the human experience, although we all have different, unique experiences that are part of our lives, there are many things that we have in common. And you're highlighting so many of those so well.
Ashley Graham: [00:30:14] It's been fun. And as you said, starting a podcast, you've learned so much and you've grown so much. There's just this, haven't quite put my finger on how to put it into words just yet, but there is something that happens with a creator in this space that you have this new ability to really inspire people. You can inspire people in your community, your neighbors, your family and friends, but a podcast just gives you this global access to inspire others in a very intentional way and there's a lot of personal growth and reflection that comes with that. And it can just continue to evolve and adapt and grow as you continue to nurture it and show up to the microphone with a core mission to inspire. So I'm right there with you, that there's so much growth that has come from just the year of being a podcaster, and I can't even imagine where I would be or where I will be in another year or two from now.
Sara Sheehan: [00:31:22] Well, I am excited to see it and excited to support you through your continued growth. For certain. It's truly moving in so many ways. Tell me, Ashley, are there any big goals or aspirations that you're working on accomplishing right now?
Ashley Graham: [00:31:46] Yes. I didn't really have an answer to this when we had first talked about the questions, but this actually is kind of wearing on my heart right now. And I think that usually when that happens, it's something worthwhile to say. And I know there's other publicists and PR agency owners out there who will understand this very well, that it's often difficult for us to do for ourselves the way that we do for clients. And I think that really goes with anybody that is in a service-based leadership position. Sometimes you just want to give, give, give outwardly and sometimes it's hard to receive that yourself.
Ashley Graham: [00:32:27] So one of the big goals that I'm working on right now in aspirations is to really nurture my own thought leadership in a way to really expand me in other ways that I am expanding right now. So I'm in the process of launching a personal platform to nurture my own writing, to nurture my own speaker topics, and hopes to really get the confidence and the courage to really go after my own thought leadership, the way that I inspire and want to be a liaison for my clients as well. So it's a big question mark in the air on what that looks like. But I'm just going to create and see what happens. And, again, similar with the podcast, who knows where I could be a year from now with nurturing my own thought leadership narrative.
Sara Sheehan: [00:33:21] And so you're thinking across different media channels for yourself where you are writing, you're speaking, you are showing up for people personally.
Ashley Graham: [00:33:42] Yes, absolutely.
Sara Sheehan: [00:33:44] That's phenomenal.
Ashley Graham: [00:33:45] I guess just to put it into a little bit more perspective, and this actually helps me workshop it, is I reach this point where I'm like, okay, this identity with the conscious publicist being a founder and an entrepreneur for eight years, I've really learned to master that and how to get to this new stage for The Conscious Publicist to be my legacy business. But I always question, I'm like, but I am so much more than just my business. I am always so much more than just The Conscious Publicist. I'm always so much more than that. What other parts of me can I bring to the table that can also inspire other people on their journey? And so for me, podcasting and writing are really big strengths that I've come to find over the years. And so I'm launching, more or less, a personal blog. That's just the best way to describe it. And I want to write about things that I also experience as a human that are outside of business. I know you know one of the most personal experiences, but, I want to step into motherhood, and I will be entering marriage here soon. And I want to talk about my journey and my experiences through those things as a means to also connect with the community that have also gone through that experience.
Sara Sheehan: [00:35:16] Absolutely. And I know that your story will resonate. I'm super confident in that.
Ashley Graham: [00:35:23] Yeah. So I'm, again, I'm just going to take it as it comes and don't really know exactly how I will create my own ideation process of what that thought leadership for myself on a personal scale looks like. But, again, when it comes to content and media, one of the things that I want to say, is it is so abundant in the opportunities that can come from it. It's just really staying consistent and staying clear as to how you're looking to serve and impact. So it's kind of fun workshopping all this with myself as my own client.
Sara Sheehan: [00:35:56] There you go. Well, I can attest that if you do the work, great things will come from it. Because I know that when people look me up, they're not just looking me up on LinkedIn. They are Googling me and they're finding all kinds of articles that I wrote and got placed with help from you. And I know that is helping them to decide that they want to talk with me. And I'm at the point in my journey where people are reaching out to me that I don't know that are absolute ideal clients. So I know it works.
Ashley Graham: [00:36:45] And that is a big case study to the impact of media, but we nurtured your narrative so well with keywords and abundant resources that you gave in your pieces. I mean, when you use the media as a means to give, give, give from your expertise, your career that you know so well because you're an expert, it's just only going to continue to create that ripple effect for more people finding you. And the great thing about PR from the digital sense is it only gets stronger the longer that it lives in the online space. That's where the SEO capabilities really come from and the strengths that come with that is, the longer that a piece is optimized and it lives in the digital space, it just only has more capacity to even bring more awareness to you.
Sara Sheehan: [00:37:41] That is so powerful. I hope our listeners take note of that statement, because it can pay tremendous dividends for them and their business. Ashley, what does being a transformational thinker mean to you?
Ashley Graham: [00:38:02] I believe there was a couple of little takeaways that I've already hit on, on what being a transformational thinker means to me. But when I think about transformation just as a word, it's always being in this state of curiosity and growth and expansion and taking experiences, both the highs and the lows, and finding the meaning and the purpose and how to evolve from there. So transformational, again, key word "transformation" is just always being in a state of wanting to evolve and change and adapt for the better. I always say this to my fiancé, when I get on my soapbox, sometimes talking about just experiences and conversations, it's like I'm always striving to be the best possible version of myself than I was the day before. And I think, again, that ties into what that represents. Being a transformational thinker is also just wanting to be the best version of yourself possible.
Sara Sheehan: [00:39:16] That's fabulous. And I can definitely say that I know you are continuing to sharpen the saw and evolve every single day. That's definitely what I want to do as well. Definitely.
Ashley Graham: [00:39:33] That's why we're so aligned.
Sara Sheehan: [00:39:35] It is why we're so aligned. Is there anything else that you're working on that you would like to share?
Ashley Graham: [00:39:41] You know, I pretty much covered it with the podcast and this new personal platform that I'm creating. If you are curious or if anybody is curious to know what I'm integrating into the podcast, this is an open invitation to check it out. Basically with our grief series, I'm going to talk about that as the example. One of the things that I am exploring is taking this audio journalism route with that series. And so instead of doing in real-time, face-to-face interviews, I'm taking audio submissions from leaders who feel like they have 15 minutes of audio to really hit the punch on what grief has taught them as their greatest teacher and guide. And with the narrative and the format of that is it's a dedicated 15 minutes or however long they submit the audio for, it's dedicated to them being the storyteller to lead them from an introduction, the main transformation, and then the takeaways that someone else can take from their story and their journey. And myself as the host, or in this case, the audio journalist, would come in and then now talk about how they would further expand on that story into transform grief into their own thought leadership language or thought leadership narrative.
Ashley Graham: [00:41:11] So, again, it's something that I'm exploring, but I see myself taking on this unorthodox approach to podcasting because it almost speaks to the very traditional journalistic approach that you're taking an expert and their main feedback for a piece, and creating it to be this very universal, hits the mark on how they're looking to serve through that content piece. We're just doing it in like a fun, almost kind of radio format. So, again, I see myself exploring this format for other series, not necessarily just the grief series, but so far the response that I've gotten has been very positive. And so I guess if you're just curious, again, open invitation to follow along with the podcast, see if I do open callouts for more submissions if you're interested in getting your voice heard on the platform. I like to be an innovator, and so I'm, again, I'm taking a new approach to type of interviews on the podcast.
Sara Sheehan: [00:42:18] That is a very innovative approach. You're making it flexible so they don't have to schedule an interview, and I love that. You could even have your own app involved in that.
Ashley Graham: [00:42:33] Well, and I don't want to get too much into this, but I plan on doing a voice activation series talking about how to go through the normal psychological beliefs that we go through of either feeling like our voice isn't the right tone enough or we don't know how to really lead somebody through a conversation for 30 minutes to an hour. The natural ping-pong thoughts that we go through, the monkey brain. With this format, it really gives the leader, who's wanting to submit their submission, a way to feel so confident in the words that they're using, the story that they're telling, the sound in their voice. It gives them full agency to feel so confident and so good about that piece. And then I'm just basically continuing to add on to their brilliance.
Sara Sheehan: [00:43:30] Wow.
Ashley Graham: [00:43:31] In traditional one-on-one interviews, I feel if somebody is in a newer stage that hasn't mastered how to be on the microphone or hasn't mastered where their confidence levels or confidence abilities need to be for them to feel confident in their speaking voice, it takes away all that pressure to feel like they need to say the right things, lead the right way. It gives them, like I said, just full agency to feel so confident and comfortable with what it is that they're saying and that is what's highlighted.
Sara Sheehan: [00:44:07] That is truly phenomenal, and it doesn't surprise me at all that you're on the bleeding edge of putting people in their best light. So I will be so excited to see it come into fruition. And so for our listeners, they need to look you up. The Conscious Publicist. You are on Apple and Spotify. And how else can our listeners find you?
Ashley Graham: [00:44:37] Yeah, LinkedIn is probably the best social media platform to connect with me on. Love LinkedIn. You can find me at Ashley Graham, The Conscious Publicist. I have an incredible LinkedIn newsletter that I try to publish every single week that is packed with a lot of good insight into PR, media relations, thought leadership, but just all the other human experience things that has some value and good takeaways. You can also connect with The Conscious Publicist through our email newsletter that you can sign up on. theconciouspublicist.com. And you already covered the podcast, that's really where you can get a lot of good insight into the space that I'm in.
Sara Sheehan: [00:45:19] And theconsciouspublicist.com, your website. Excellent, well, Ashley, I can't thank you enough for spending some time with me today and giving me the opportunity to showcase you and to highlight your genius work, which I know has made a tremendous difference for me.
Ashley Graham: [00:45:41] That's just amazing to hear. It's an honor to have this conversation and to be on your platform that we helped create together.
Sara Sheehan: [00:45:51] Fantastic.
Sara Sheehan: [00:45:53] Thank you so much for listening to today's episode of Transformational Thinkers with Sara Sheehan with my friend Ashley Graham, the CEO of The Conscious Publicist. The three key takeaways from today's conversation include: media and PR power, understand how effective PR can amplify your online presence and create a significant positive ripple effect. VIP experiences, learn how Ashley's three tailored VIP experiences designed to help clients with ideation, content creation and comprehensive PR transformation. Finally, continuous growth, embrace transformational thinking by fostering continuous curiosity, growth and evolution to become the best version of yourself. Please subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and never miss an episode. And as always, let's continue the conversation. Please like, comment and share with anyone that you think needs the inspiration. Thanks so much for listening and we'll catch you on a future episode.
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Sara Sheehan’s guest in this episode is Gary Simon, CEO of Modern Finance Forum and FSN Talent and highly sought-after lecturer. Gary talks about exactly what the Modern Finance Forum and FSN Talent are about and what they’re accomplishing. He explains what some of the contemporary discussions on finance centre on between the professionals on the forum and how the members research issues that impact the finance function.
Membership in the Modern Finance Forum is strictly controlled and members align specifically with finance in career and knowledge. Gary explains that their goal is to expand knowledge that impacts finance and expand engagement, noting that while membership is curated, the results of discussion and research are publicly published and available to everyone. Because the membership user base is 60% EMEA, 25% North America, and 15% AsiaPac, they address global issues and innovations affecting worldwide finance.
In this episode, Sara Sheehan and Gary Simon discuss what finance transformation means to different people and the impact of modern innovation and processes on the finance function. Gary describes some of the topics the forum tackles, from the data issue and data governance to cyber security and what security implications new systems like Copilot introduce. Gary also touches on AI, the value of human creativity and originality, sustainability and the overconsumption of resources in the growth of data and computing, and his goals for the forum. The insight and knowledge Gary share are not to be missed.
About Gary Simon:
Gary Simon is in the "Top 10" most viewed Leaders profiles on Linkedin in the UK.
He is a highly sought-after lecturer and trusted provider of 'thought leadership' and analysis about finance and business systems for CFOs around the world. He is a Fellow of the British Computer Society; a Chartered IT Professional; a Fellow of the Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales; a Graduate of Queen Elizabeth College (now Kings) London University and the author of four books on financial software and information systems.
He addresses thousands of finance professionals annually about the issues and challenges affecting the CFO’s role. The bulk of Gary Simon’s professional experience has been as a senior consulting partner with Deloitte, one of the largest professional services organizations in the world. His field of expertise is information strategy, performance management and financial reporting systems working at the Board level with global 2,000 companies, large public sector organizations and central government as well as spells in the mid-market. After almost 17 years as a consulting partner, he set up his own highly successful publishing house FSN Publishing Limited in 2005 and works extensively as a popular market analyst, running FSN's popular Modern Finance Forum on LinkedIn for more than 56,000 CFOs around the globe.
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Resources discussed in this episode:
“Every time you talk to ChatGPT it drinks 500ml of water; here’s why” by Priya Singh for Business Today September 12, 2023—
Contact Sara Sheehan | Sara Sheehan Consulting:
SaraWSheehan.comSara Sheehan on LinkedInMeet with SaraContact Gary Simon:
Website: FSNTalent.comThe Modern Finance ForumGary Simon on LinkedInEmail: [email protected]__
Transcript
Sara Sheehan: [00:00:03] Hi there, I am Sara Sheehan and welcome to my podcast, Transformational Thinkers with Sara Sheehan. Today I'm talking with Gary Simon, CEO of Modern Finance Forum and FSN Talent. This group has been selected to be part of LinkedIn's Inner Circle program, recognized as one of the most engaging groups on LinkedIn. This group is maintained by FSN, an independent publisher and thought leader that welcomes senior finance professionals from around the world to discuss the talent, innovations, and best practices affecting the modern finance function. It is a place where you can learn about the pressing issues of the day and get your questions answered by other finance professionals. FSN's Modern Finance Group, with 58,000 members, is now in the top five groups for CFOs globally on LinkedIn. Previously, Gary built his career as a partner with Deloitte. Thank you so much for joining me today, Gary. I'm so glad to have an opportunity to talk with you and to explore what you're up to with FSN Talent and the Modern Finance Forum.
Gary Simon: [00:01:21] Thank you, Sara, I'm very pleased to be joining you on your podcast.
Sara Sheehan: [00:01:25] Excellent. And so talk with me, Gary, about what your mission, vision and overarching goals were in creating the Modern Finance Forum.
Gary Simon: [00:01:37] So we created the forum in 2011. I actually wish I'd created it earlier, but we were really riding the coattails of the rise in social media. We were a traditional publisher with print copy and also publishing books, and we decided that social media was gaining traction, incredibly important, so we decided to create the Modern Finance Forum, which was a way of bringing senior finance professionals from around the world together to discuss the pressing issues of the day. And basically our aim is to inform finance professionals to help them do their job better so that they have an understanding of all the contemporary issues that impact on the workings of the finance function.
Sara Sheehan: [00:02:37] Outstanding. And so I take it that the people that are in the Modern Finance Forum, those are relationships that you foster as well for FSN Talent. Is that correct?
Gary Simon: [00:02:51] Yes. I mean, it's well known that we have FSN Talent as a branch of our business, but the FSN Modern Finance Forum on LinkedIn is primarily a resource for finance professionals to use. We do a considerable amount of research. We produce a lot of contemporary discussions, and people in the forum have free access to all of that content.
Sara Sheehan: [00:03:26] Fantastic. And so what would you say that success looks like for you in the forum, and how will you know that you've met your actual objectives?
Gary Simon: [00:03:37] So success is a gradual process whereby we build relationships, and many of the people in the forum have been with us right from the very beginning, and they attend our webinars, our events when we have them. And success is really about getting engagement in the forum. You mentioned that we're part of LinkedIn's Inner Circle because of our high level of engagement, and this, to me, is the most pleasing aspect. It's a very respectful forum. We never have a cross word in there. We don't have trolls, we don't have spamming. We have just a nice environment that people can go into and genuinely discuss, or if they just want to lurk there and just listen, that's perfectly fine as well. But success for us is actually ramping up that level of engagement. I mean, just to illustrate it, we have, during a year, we have around about 3.5 million views of our posts.
Sara Sheehan: [00:04:50] Wow.
Gary Simon: [00:04:51] In the forum, on an average week, we have 125,000 people involved. We have about 20 people a day at least asking to join the Modern Finance Forum. But I can tell you we only take a handful because we're very picky. We want people who are experienced finance professionals in the group, and we don't particularly want other disciplines. We're trying to stick to the knitting, as we say this side of the pond. Do what we're good at and deal with the issues that relate to the finance function.
Sara Sheehan: [00:05:32] Those are absolutely tremendous numbers in terms of views and engagement and the fact that you have more than 20 people a day asking to join is truly phenomenal. So I give you a tremendous round of applause for your stickiness and the level of adoption that you have in the marketplace. So that is absolutely huge. I'd love to talk with you a little bit about the research that you're doing and the impact that it's having on your audience. I know that the research that you do is absolutely watershed. You've done some very significant work in autonomous finance and analytics. I'd love to know what you're currently up to now.
Gary Simon: [00:06:23] So our research roams across the full spectrum of the activities of the finance function. So earlier in the year, we talked about and we researched some aspects of recruitment. What does recruitment currently look like in the finance function. Not really hard numbers, but trying to get under the skin of recruitment, how people feel they're being treated, how they would like to do it differently, what are the factors affecting recruitment currently? And now, a few months later, we're working on cyber security and how that impacts the finance function. We tend to look at issues where finance function isn't comfortable. We're trying to add to the knowledge. So most CFOs don't understand cyber. You know, they understand its implications of course, but they don't understand how to protect themselves, what the risks are, how much time they should be spending on it. And so what we're trying to do is identify things that make them sit up and help them in terms of plotting their way forward as a finance function. But we've, in the last couple of years, we've done, as you mentioned, research on analytics, we've done research on group reporting, we've done research on FPNA - financial planning and analysis - and we've also done research on data, which is a huge prevalent problem for everyone, no matter where in the world you are.
Gary Simon: [00:08:14] And that's one of the fascinating things. Our research is global. So we have, for example, 60% of our user base is in EMEA, 25% in North America and 15% in Asia-Pac. So we get a global perspective of the issues affecting the finance function. And incredibly, after many, many years of doing this, I said since 2011, most of the issues we deal with apply to finance functions across the world without much difference. There are, of course, cultural differences in the way that people approach things. But increasingly with globalization, organizations seem to have to confront the same issues as everybody else. And technology is agnostic to culture. You know, essentially, if you roll out ChatGPT, it's around the world. If you introduce Copilot, it's around the world. So these things are universal in applicability and interest within the forum. So we ask our members to participate in the research, and then we play back the findings of the research to them in due course as well. So it's a virtuous cycle where people participate and we thank them and bring them into the research findings as well.
Sara Sheehan: [00:09:44] That is a fantastic context on who you're reaching globally. It's great to have that context that you really are global, very EMEA focused, very interesting. Now, in terms of the research itself, it's also fascinating that the community is serving in that research as well. The topics that you shared are also very interesting. I'm sure it keeps your audience coming back every day, once a week on a regular basis, whatever it may be. I'm certain of that. In terms of topics, one follow-up question that I do have is what are you seeing in terms of finance transformation adoption? How are things going in the transformation side of finance and how people are doing on the success of making a finance transformation stick.
Gary Simon: [00:10:50] So finance transformation isn't a term I'm particularly fond of, really because it can mean so many different things to different people. So what are you transforming? Where are you starting? What skills are involved? What's the culture of your organization? Where are you trying to get to? And for me, finance functions have been doing transformation forever. There's nothing new about it. What is quite interesting is we've done a lot of research around innovation in the finance function. What does that mean? And it comes down to different meanings for different people, again depending on the maturity of the company that you're working in. So for example, if you've always used spreadsheets, then moving to a dedicated planning, budgeting and forecasting application could be argued as both a major transformation and extremely innovative. To a top 100 global business, that's not innovative at all. They've done it years ago, and it's not even transformative. And so it's impossible to dissect out what is transformative without trying to set it in the context of the business at a particular point in time. But as I said, the term is overused and we've lost some of the, I think some of the core disciplines around information systems strategy and technology strategy that really are part of a transformation if you want to try and define it that way. And also there are a lot of people running around who are practitioners of transformation. But what qualifications do they have to transform a business? So I think in many cases, I mean, I don't have a problem with the idea of making processes more efficient and making the organization of the finance function more coherent with the applications and processes that they're managing. But I think transformation is overworked. You need to break it down and say, what is it we're trying to achieve? And usually small bites is a better approach within the context of a larger plan spread over 2 or 3 years.
Sara Sheehan: [00:13:45] Exactly. And the comments that you made with regard to technology strategy, it definitely is critical for the CFO to be in partnership and lockstep with the CTO or CIO, if you will, so that whatever the work or project is at hand, they are literally on the same page of music, if you will.
Gary Simon: [00:14:17] It's absolutely essential. We sometimes draw up what we call the Golden Triangle with the CIO, the CTO and the CFO on the three sides of the triangle and data in the middle, because the data issue has become so vast that no one can claim ownership of it. So in that scenario, everybody's got to play nicely together to manage that data and develop that data and use it for the corporate good. And that's something that's, although it's simple to draw, is very difficult in practice to achieve. But that is the essence. And if there was one thing that comes up time and time again in the forum over the years, it's about managing data, data quality, and now we talk about data health as distinct from data quality. And this is the holy grail, being able to manage your data. And as we speak it's growing and growing and growing.
Sara Sheehan: [00:15:30] It absolutely is. Over the last 10 to 12 years, I have worked on a number of projects where data, formal data organizations have been, created a data czar, identified and hired. And really, those clients have put tremendous effort into completely transforming the quality and coherence of the data that they have. It's because of all of these ERP systems that companies have implemented over time and needing to, for instance, upgrade or transition to a new software. You have to make sure that the data is clean and good before doing that, or it's an absolute nightmare.
Gary Simon: [00:16:28] Having said all of that, people don't realize how lucky they are these days. When I started, and I won't tell you when that was, in the profession, I remember literally carrying ten megabytes of data on a disk platter this large and this wide, and carrying it along the street from one computer in one building to another computer in another building. And none of it was compatible. You couldn't easily read data from one computer to another. And people today are spoiled. They don't realize how much advantage they have when it comes to managing data. But what's happened is the volumes have grown out of all proportion, and the advent of the cloud means that organizations have mushroomed, different applications all around the world with more data sets that are different from the data sets they had before. And all of that creates a muddle unless data governance is good. So it's probably the biggest issue of the day and we've done lots of research in that area, and it's one of my favorite areas as it happens. But it's the plumbing, so it's not very glamorous. So I always say no one got promoted for fixing the data.
Sara Sheehan: [00:17:50] Well, I would tell you that many boards are thrilled when they see that data is better in the future. And so I could argue that it could definitely secure someone's job in a great way at the CFO level if they are addressing data. So I appreciate your comments greatly on that. Is there an emerging business area that you would like to see the forum expand into?
Gary Simon: [00:18:25] So the area that interests us most at the moment is the the use of digital assistants, Copilot, and you know, Windows 11 and all of the developments in Microsoft. And it will soon come in Apple. We're about to take off again. You know, we've had some stability for a few years and now AI, which is talked about so much, but some of it justifiably. But it is about to take off because the computing power that we need is at another level. So we need bigger, faster, bigger in terms of capability, and faster computer systems with more storage, with more advanced operating systems, and even with their own chip. Traditional chips are no longer fast enough to process 50 million transactions per second. You know, it's becoming phenomenal. So I think we're going to be, over the next few months, we're going to be exploring that some more. What does it mean for finance? Do they need to get their hands dirty with these PCs, these new Copilot PCs where you've got Microsoft have embedded Copilot into the PC and what are the security implications of it? I mean, last week I had great fun with ChatGPT 4.0 because I interviewed her and asked her to attend one of my webinars, and we had a long conversation. You wouldn't have known that I was talking to a computer. She was giving amazing answers and asking me questions that put me on the edge of my seat, actually. Much more difficult interview than this one.
Sara Sheehan: [00:20:34] Really? Wow.
Gary Simon: [00:20:35] Yeah, really. It's on our forum. If you have a look, there's a recording of it.
Sara Sheehan: [00:20:41] I definitely will because that's fascinating.
Gary Simon: [00:20:43] It's so exciting and we've got so much of this development to come. But the security issues around AI and the legislative issues around AI, which is another big area of interest, is becoming quite fraught. For example, Europe has rushed out an EU AI act. The US doesn't want to, it seems, doesn't want to introduce legislation. Because if I look at it cynically, it's the new arms race. No one wants to limit the development of AI and let perhaps another sovereign nation, I won't mention which one, get ahead in terms of AI developments. It's becoming that crucial. So there are a lot of fascinating areas to deal with. And CFOs have got to assess the privacy risks, the confidentiality risks that are associated with AI. And they're not trivial.
Sara Sheehan: [00:21:51] I would even offer that there are intellectual property risks as well.
Gary Simon: [00:21:58] Totally. And, you know, one of the, I don't know if we're coming on to it to talk about the sort of content we produce, but one of the saddest things I've seen over the last two years is people resorting to AI to produce content, and in my view, it's a race to the bottom, because what you end up with is bland content that anyone can produce, that no one really understands, and isn't innovative, isn't on the leading edge of developments. And this is where I see us being differentiated, because we're not going to produce content like everybody else. We never had. We never have. We've always produced original content. It gets copied within seconds. We can't stop it. That's the way of the world now. But it's a tragedy that actually the inspiration, the creativity, the spontaneity of content is being destroyed by a lot of platforms because people are using AI engines and it's in all creative fields, as you probably are aware, and your listeners are aware, and this content is being really ripped off. The intellectual property is being stolen and homogenized and regurgitated. And where does that take us? You know, how does it advance? Oh, you've gone, you know, content is becoming homogenized.
Sara Sheehan: [00:23:42] It is.
Gary Simon: [00:23:43] It's stodgy. It's not interesting. It doesn't elevate interest. It doesn't look innovative. And we've always, as I've said to you, Sara, we've always focused on content that we produce ourselves with our expertise.
Sara Sheehan: [00:24:02] Originality is always better. And, you know, as I look at what's going on with the use of tools like ChatGPT or even Google's, I believe it's currently called Gemini, that there are many others out there, but as I look at that and I continue in conversation with, for instance, friends that are in higher education as professors, they are seeing a step change in their students' writing, but it is literally powered by computers. And this is not teaching great writing. It's not teaching great innovation or creativity. So I understand completely where you're headed.
Gary Simon: [00:24:54] So I think we have a duty to carry on, to fly the flag, to carry on producing original content. And I think soon the market will wake up and come to the realization. I mean, if I look across, you know, 20 or 30 vendors in the accounting space and look at their websites, they all say the same thing, the same straplines, the same marketing messages, and it's just bland, boring, ineffective. And look, it's not the only industry it's happening in. It's the way of the world. We're building almost a, you know, I hate quoting anything biblical, but it's almost like a Tower of Babel we're building, where everybody is converging on a very similar path in a similar language. And it will eventually break apart because people will not see the value in it.
Sara Sheehan: [00:25:57] Mhm. Yes. And we definitely want to keep originality as part of the best that's out there in research and writing. It's really critical. It's critical for our world, it's critical for business, and it's critical for people that really want to be their best each and every day.
Gary Simon: [00:26:21] Well said. I agree with you.
Sara Sheehan: [00:26:23] In terms of if you were to fill in the blank on if a CEO or finance leader says this... I'll know we made a difference.
Gary Simon: [00:26:41] Right. If they say they've learned something, they've learned something new, I'm happy.
Sara Sheehan: [00:26:48] That's wonderful. I'll always be learning and sharpening the saw. That definitely means that you're always going to be on the bleeding edge of growth and comfort. So that's always good. When you're growing, you're not going to be comfortable. Growth and comfort do not coexist. So I do love that. What big goals or aspirations are you currently working on accomplishing?
Gary Simon: [00:27:19] So we are looking to grow the group to 80,000. That's our immediate numeric goal. But our goal more broadly is to keep producing content that people want to read. It's as simple as that. We don't, we don't drive ourselves too hard against loads and loads of metrics. You know, while we've got people coming to our webinars where 90% of them stay till the end, or who come on to our LinkedIn group and read every week, and the figures keep getting better, that's good enough for me. That's our purpose in life.
Sara Sheehan: [00:28:05] That's outstanding.
Gary Simon: [00:28:07] Someone said to me the other day that growth for its own sake is the philosophy of a cancer cell. Very interesting because a lot of people are saying to me this, and you can see it in the stock market right now, that there's a shift from momentum buying and growth stocks to stocks that are actually producing profit. People have recognized that growth for its own sake is not necessarily a good thing for the companies, for the planet, for the organizations, for people more generally. There are a lot of negatives to it. It's a difficult thing to sustain. So we're adopting, I said, you know, we have 20 people a day wanting to join us. I could accept them all, and I could reach my 80,000 target and say, aren't we clever? You know, look what we've done so quickly. But what would we really have achieved in terms of quality, in terms of participation in the forum, in terms of professional exchange of ideas? We won't have achieved very much. So, you know, our metric, our big goal is over a period of time, and I'm not going to specify, maybe a couple of years, to grow to 80,000. And then we'll be pretty happy. I mean, we're happy now.
Sara Sheehan: [00:29:42] Excellent. Well, that is a wonderful goal to reach 80,000 engaged members. I applaud you for focusing on quality in those members as you admit them. And I also would love to double click on your comment about growth for the sake of growth is not necessarily a good thing. I would love to explore that a little bit more with you, if I could. Talk with me about what you think people are seeing that growth for the sake of growth is not necessarily good. They're actually demonstrating reason and in looking at a company's performance is what I heard. Is that correct?
Gary Simon: [00:30:33] Yes. There's been a palpable shift in, I mean, I'm not an expert in stock markets, but what I've observed is that there's been a palpable shift from momentum buying and valuing and pricing stocks that are just growing and growing and growing without any profitability to concentrating now on, you know, stocks that actually produce profits. Profit, I trained and learned with a senior partner who was a corporate finance partner, and he said, I remember one day he turned around to me and said, Gary, profit gives you permission to do whatever you want.
Sara Sheehan: [00:31:26] That's beautiful. That is absolutely beautiful.
Gary Simon: [00:31:29] And he was right. You know, if you've got, if you're well and prudently managed and you have profitability and you have good cash flow, then you've got the ability to do what you want to do in business. You can make the choices. They're not forced upon you.
Sara Sheehan: [00:31:48] That's right.
Gary Simon: [00:31:50] But the problem with growth for its own sake is what it leaves in its wake. The overconsumption of resources. I mean, taking AI as an example, right? There are data centers in the Republic of Ireland that are serving some of the big tech companies, Meta, Google, so on. Those data centers, there's only a couple of them, they are estimated to use, within a couple of years, a third of Ireland's electricity.
Sara Sheehan: [00:32:28] Right. That is absolutely phenomenal.
Gary Simon: [00:32:32] And the water cooling requirements. I mean, I don't know if you've visited one of these data centers, but they're the size of a shopping mall that I would find in Texas. Right?
Sara Sheehan: [00:32:49] Correct. Absolutely.
Gary Simon: [00:32:51] Your shopping malls are bigger than ours.
Sara Sheehan: [00:32:53] Correct.
Gary Simon: [00:32:53] And they're crammed full of computers. They need to be cooled.
Sara Sheehan: [00:32:57] That's right.
Gary Simon: [00:32:58] So you're using all that water, and I keep reading again and again about the water challenges that America is having. That whole central part of America. You have to answer the question, can you, can we--
Sara Sheehan: [00:33:14] -- is this sustainable?
Gary Simon: [00:33:16] Is it affordable, crudely. The Turing Institute published some comments about three weeks ago. They said every single ChatGPT inquiry uses 500ml of water to cool. Now when you consider how many--
Sara Sheehan: [00:33:37] -- that is stunning--
Gary Simon: [00:33:38] -- millions of millions of inquiries there are with ChatGPT per hour--
Sara Sheehan: [00:33:49] -- it's, that is a stunning piece of data--
Gary Simon: [00:33:55] -- you realize how much water we use. We've got too many people in the world. We're over consuming. We're creating waste. We're not good at recycling. And all these things are a travesty. And we're storing up a problem. And we've gone way off the topic of finance. But I think companies have to have a social conscience. We talk about ESG, which is very big around the world now. And part of it is conservation of resources. And part of it is companies, we have to be good citizens, good corporate citizens.
Sara Sheehan: [00:34:35] Right. And that means not only managing your finances in a concerned, very almost, I think prudent really is a great word, in a very prudent and cogent way, so that you're not hurting others in what you're doing, and you have very high integrity about how you're operating. I think those things are very, very critical. What does being a transformational thinker mean to you, Gary?
Gary Simon: [00:35:10] It was interesting because I'm not sure what that transformational thinking means. I like to regard ourselves as thought leaders. So it is taking, I think it's about having that broad perspective of the world and being able to draw on bits of information, both in the near term and on the horizon, that allows us to assemble a picture of where and how the world is developing. There was a professor, and I'm going to misquote it, because I can't remember which American professor I used, oh, it was Greg Hackett who used to own and run the Hackett Group, which is a well-respected group, as you know. And I was sitting in one of his smaller lectures one day and he said something interesting, there aren't, we've got too many managers, was the first thing, and there aren't enough people looking on the horizon.
Sara Sheehan: [00:36:30] Interesting.
Gary Simon: [00:36:31] So businesses are very much focusing on what they're doing without realizing what's about to hit them that's coming over the horizon. And if you think about it on a board, there is no one particularly who is charged with scanning the horizon. He was saying it in the context of how big the turnover is of companies in the top 1000.
Sara Sheehan: [00:37:02] That's a really good, really good topic.
Gary Simon: [00:37:05] They're there for maybe 20, 30 years and then they disappear or, and in fact that time scale is accelerating, so they might be there for 10 years and then they drop out, or less, and then drop out. Right. And why is that? And part of it is because something hits them like a steam train and they don't realize that it's coming down the line.
Sara Sheehan: [00:37:33] Well, I think I think there are so many companies that have literally developed toxic workplace cultures and the turnover that we have at senior levels, it seems to be accelerating. And that experience and knowledge loss is absolutely prohibitive from being strategic in many cases. And if no one is scanning the horizon and looking at what's going on out there so that they can make really good decisions, it's a huge problem for business performance at its root.
Gary Simon: [00:38:21] Totally. That's exactly it. And cynically, we probably pay our leadership too much money. So...
Sara Sheehan: [00:38:32] There you go.
Gary Simon: [00:38:33] They don't need to be around very long to be well rewarded. And that's not helpful.
Sara Sheehan: [00:38:40] Very interesting. Is there anything else, Gary, that you're working on that you would like to share with the listeners today?
Gary Simon: [00:38:50] I think I've given you a pretty good insight into what we're about and where we're going. I don't think there's anything dramatic to tell you about. I mean, we're putting a lot of effort into FSN Talent. We, the recruitment side of the business, we really think we can do that better than it's been done in the past. We want, I keep saying 'we', the new way of doing recruitment is the old way. Actually not AI selection of candidates and analysis of CVs, but actually talking to people.
Sara Sheehan: [00:39:29] Actually knowing the individual.
Gary Simon: [00:39:32] On both sides of the fence, both the candidate understanding their aspirations, paying a lot of attention to that, and also the hiring company, understanding how this all works together, what they're really looking for, what's the thinking behind the job spec? What is the real culture of the organization? When you're recruiting senior people, it's not about the technical skills. You can assume a certain level of competence. It's about the cultural fit.
Sara Sheehan: [00:40:05] That's right. That's right.
Gary Simon: [00:40:07] So we're focusing on that. We're bringing our finance skills into the equation, because a lot of, we think that finance recruitment ought to be finance led. You need people who understand the finance world, understand where financial reporting is going, for example, where financial systems are going, all of that. If you don't understand it, how can you possibly engage and find the right sort of people? And then finally we've got this wonderful network. So we're putting quite a lot of energy into the recruitment side because we think we can do it absolutely better, not faster, we're not going to be a CV factory churning out CVs. We want to do very few jobs a year, but do them well.
Sara Sheehan: [00:40:55] Gary, I have tremendous respect for how you're approaching your work with FSN Talent, having better, deeper relationships not only with the client that needs the resource, but the actual candidate, is an absolute winning combination for me. I feel that it's something that has been lost with all of the proliferation of online job boards and the selection software that so many people use. It's become a game to try to create a resume that will be seen by ATS and filtered up to the top. So if you're actually picking people based on their experience and skills and their personality for the organization that they may be presented to, you're going to be more likely to be successful there.
Gary Simon: [00:41:58] Mm, I totally agree. That's what we're about.
Sara Sheehan: [00:42:02] Excellent. Well I really appreciate that context. Gary, how would our listeners find you?
Gary Simon: [00:42:09] So I'm going to take the brave step and give you my email address.
Sara Sheehan: [00:42:14] Perfect.
Gary Simon: [00:42:16] So if they want to reach out to me it's Gary G A R Y dot Simon S I M O N at F for Freddie, S for sugar N for November dot co dot uk. [email protected]. Or they can find me on LinkedIn, or in the Modern Finance Forum and connect with me that way.
Sara Sheehan: [00:42:43] Super. Well, Gary, this has been a fascinating conversation. I can't wait to see where your business expands and grows, and I know that it will. So I look forward to staying in touch with you so that we might be able to even have a conversation in a year or two about how things have changed for you.
Gary Simon: [00:43:08] Thank you very much, Sara, for that vote of confidence. It's much appreciated.
Sara Sheehan: [00:43:13] Thank you so much for listening to episode 15 of Transformational Thinkers with Sara Sheehan. Today I had the pleasure of discussing modern finance with Gary Simon, the CEO of the Modern Finance Forum and FSN Talent. We touched on some critical topics about the future of finance, the impact of technology, and the importance of integrity and financial management. Some of the key takeaways from today: Integrity and prudence in financial management. Managing finances with the highest integrity and prudence is crucial to avoid causing harm to others. It's more important than ever to prioritize ethical decision-making in business. Transformational thinking and forward-looking strategies. Businesses need to adopt transformational thinking by anticipating future challenges and opportunities, emphasizing the necessity of long-term planning and forward-thinking to maintain a thriving organizational culture. And finally, human-centric recruitment approaches. FSN Talent focuses on personalized, relationship-based recruitment strategies, ensuring a cultural fit and understanding of finance in the hiring process rather than relying solely on AI and ATS selection. Thank you so much for listening. As always, we love to hear from you. Please consider subscribing so you never miss an episode, liking, and commenting. Let's keep the conversation going.
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Sara Sheehan shares an episode containing three messages about mindset approaches. The three approaches collectively yield an attainable vision of transformational leadership. Drawing on her years of experience, Sara’s passion for building long-term relationships and delivering business results gives this episode a timely impact. Transformational leadership has never been as important as it is now.
The three mindset approaches Sara lays out involve resilient leadership, the learning leader, and aligning vision with action. Resilient leadership is about transforming challenges into opportunities. Not all leadership navigates smooth waters, storms will be encountered. How does a leader handle storms gracefully? The learning leader and aligning vision with action address qualities that a good leader must cultivate to realize success.
In this episode, Sara’s advice encompasses the necessity of continuous education, what that education involves, how to cultivate a clear and compelling vision, and how to align goal setting with that vision. While Sara acknowledges that all leaders are individuals and every organization will need different strengths at different times, transformational leadership will always involve resilience, growth, and the alignment of vision and goals. Knowing how to approach these mindsets and make them work for each organization is part of the legacy of effective leadership.
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Contact Sara Sheehan | Sara Sheehan Consulting:
SaraWSheehan.comSara Sheehan on LinkedInMeet with Sara__
Transcript:
Sara Sheehan: [00:00:02] Hi there, I'm Sara Sheehan and welcome to my podcast, Transformational Thinkers with Sara Sheehan. Today I'm sharing a collective of three messages with mindset approaches that yield transformational leadership in a monologue format. In the first segment, I'll talk about resilient leadership, transforming challenges into opportunities and building resilient leadership. In the second segment, I'll discuss approaches for the learning leader. Keeping ahead of the curve with continuous education. And finally, we will discuss how aligning vision with action is the key to strategic success.
Sara Sheehan: [00:00:57] Hi there! Today I am going to talk a little bit about transforming challenges into opportunities and building resilient leadership. Leadership is not just about steering organizations through smooth waters, but also about navigating through storms. Challenges and setbacks are inevitable aspects of the working world, and a leader's ability to handle these situations gracefully and effectively is what defines true resilience. For CEOs, cultivating resilience is not just a personal trait, but a crucial component of their professional legacy. Resilience and leadership goes beyond simply recovering from setbacks. It involves using challenges as stepping stones for growth and learning. When faced with difficulties, resilient leaders look for lessons and opportunities for improvement. They see every setback as a chance to refine their strategies and enhance their teams capabilities. This mindset not only helps in overcoming current challenges, but also prepares the organization for future hurdles. Another key aspect of building resilience is focusing on personal and team strengths. By understanding and leveraging your strengths and those of your team, you can navigate challenges more effectively. Strength-based coaching can help identify these areas of potential and develop them further, contributing to a more resilient organizational culture.
Sara Sheehan: [00:02:58] One way to look at using your strengths is by thinking of a strength as a muscle that you need to build and work out. If you are using it regularly, you'll be more likely to increase its strength, increase the connection that you have with that capability, and actually build more confidence in it. Constructive feedback is a cornerstone of personal and professional development. For CEOs, seeking and acting on feedback that can lead to significant improvements in leadership style and decision-making processes, embracing feedback not as a criticism, but as a vital part of input, a vital piece of input that can help refine your strategies and approaches. Just to double-click on this topic a little bit, make sure that you're looking at feedback as a tool, a means to an end that can help you make significant leaps in your performance. If you don't have feedback happening where you're able to learn from others, you may be stuck in a significant way. You may be hitting that upper-limiting problem. Seeking a mentor's perspective is something that is so very important. Experiencing challenges offers a great opportunity to check in with a few of your mentors, to learn how they have handled similar situations, to ask if they have any innovative solutions to tough dilemmas that you might be experiencing, and see if they've had any other points of view that could help you create a productive path forward in a particular situation.
Sara Sheehan: [00:05:36] For one of my coaching clients, we used all of these approaches in our engagement. She was able to build more resilience over time to get much-needed perspective on her situation, and use constructive feedback to her advantage, and learn to lead from her strengths more in each situation. The engagement created a deeper self-awareness and more empathy in others as well. It's truly remarkable when you take a moment and you take a step back and look at opportunities to grow and learn, to use your strengths, to tune in to feedback and check in with a few mentors, it's amazing what can result from a few of these strategies. You can absolutely become more resilient. Resilience is not developed in a day, truly, or by facing one difficult challenge. It's built through consistent practices and a mindset that views challenges as catalysts for growth. By focusing on resilience-building strategies, CEOs can ensure that they not only survive but thrive in the face of adversity, setting a powerful example for their organization and their teams. I would love to hear from you about what you think about resilient leadership, and if there are any tools or approaches that you find incredibly useful.
Sara Sheehan: [00:07:51] The learning CEO and keeping ahead of the curve with continuous education. The landscape of global business is continually evolving, driven by technological advancements, market shifts, cultural changes, so many pressures on individuals, teams and organizations. For CEOs, staying relevant and effective, means maintaining a commitment to continuous learning and adaptation. Embracing the mindset of a lifelong learner is crucial for leaders who wish to lead their organizations successfully into the future.
Sara Sheehan: [00:08:46] Today, we're going to talk about three different approaches that can be extremely helpful in helping to keep your edge sharp. Continuous learning. Executive shadowing and feedback. And finally, participating in masterminds. In the quest to stay competitive, ongoing education is truly vital. This can be through formal training workshops, reading, engaging with thought leaders, getting into very interesting conversations. Each learning opportunity helps you to gain fresh insights and perspectives which are essential for making informed decisions and leading innovatively. Learning from real-world experiences and direct feedback is also incredibly valuable. To that end, executive shadowing allows you to observe different leadership styles and organizational dynamics firsthand, providing practical insights that are often not available through a traditional learning mode or method. When you couple that with constructive feedback, this approach can really, truly, significantly enhance your leadership effectiveness. When you are in the presence of a significant leader that you admire and respect, and you've worked with for a period of time, always take the opportunity to ask for constructive feedback, because you might be amazed by what you learn, and it might open up a completely new thought pattern for you that is an absolute aha moment.
Sara Sheehan: [00:11:04] Finally, participating in mastermind groups is another excellent way for CEOs to engage in continuous learning. These groups provide a platform for sharing challenges, solutions, and strategies with peers, offering diverse perspectives that can broaden your understanding and spark innovative ideas. I know people that are constantly in a mastermind, and that's how they keep their edge sharp, and I definitely think they are on to something. One of my coaching and consulting clients used all three approaches that I have just talked about in this segment as growth tools during our coaching engagement. From a style perspective, she is able to lead with information or input for others, as she's constantly learning about the next cohort that she's about to join. She is a constant, thriving learner and is a student of new courses, books, workshops, and programs of any kind. She has actively used all three approaches in her own career trajectory. After reaching a senior level of leadership, she was able to separate herself from her peers and get not only mentoring, but constructive feedback that helped her shape professional goals and values for the next phase of her career. Finally, masterminds help participants collaborate on creative approaches that they may never have thought of, as well as uncover and work through blind spots and my particular client is an active participant in masterminds and has used them to help her get more insight on a continual basis.
Sara Sheehan: [00:13:21] I think that the approaches that work for you are personal and they have to fit your personality and your personal strengths, but there's definitely something to learn by being a learning leader. The continuous commitment for learning is what separates transformative leaders from the rest. By investing in your personal and professional development, you ensure that not only your growth, but also the advancements of your greater organization as a CEO set a lifelong learning agenda and inspire your team to follow suit.
Sara Sheehan: [00:14:15] For any CEO having a clear and compelling vision is absolutely fundamental. However, the true challenge really lies in aligning every action and decision with the vision. Strategic alignment ensures that all efforts are directed towards the same end goals, optimizing resources and enhancing organizational coherence. First, I want to focus on vision and alignment. Strategic success starts with a clear vision. As a CEO, it's your responsibility to not only define the vision, but ensure that every part of your organization understands and aligns with it. Regularly communicating your vision and its relevance to daily tasks can help maintain focus and motivation across all levels of your business.
Sara Sheehan: [00:15:31] Second, goal setting with accountability. To ensure alignment with your vision, set specific, measurable goals for yourself and your team. Establish regular check-ins and monitor progress and adjust strategies as necessary. Accountability mechanisms should be in place to keep everyone on track and ensure that actions directly contribute to the broader objectives. Employ visualization and journaling techniques. Employing visualization techniques can keep your goals and outcomes top of mind. Visualization is so incredibly powerful. Visualizing your success can boost your confidence and clarify the steps that you need to take to achieve your vision. This practice can be particularly powerful in helping you maintain focus during difficult or challenging times.
Sara Sheehan: [00:16:53] Additionally, journaling can help you discern patterns to see where concepts may be repeating in your life and help clarify the best next steps that you need to take. Taking a moment to journal about what you learned on a given day or a given week can really help you come to great insight. One of my coaching clients used all three of these approaches during our engagement, and she was able to uncover blind spots that she had to find completely new paths forward that she had never considered, and she was able to stay true to her overall vision by continuing to work on her planned actions. If you do the work, you're more likely to achieve the goal. It's a great thing when you just do what you planned on doing. You're going to move things forward. Aligning your actions with your vision, it's just, it's not a one-time task. It's an ongoing process that requires constant attention and refinement. By ensuring that your daily actions are in sync with your long-term goals, you pave the way for sustained success and a legacy of effective leadership. Each of these concepts are just examples that you might experiment with to see what helps you gain more clarity. What helps you show up as a better leader? What helps you achieve more of the goals that you set? Everybody's different and some approaches work for some people and not for others. But when you're putting the effort in, you're more likely to achieve the goal.
Sara Sheehan: [00:18:24] Thank you so much for listening to episode 14, where we delved into the power of mindset in transformational leadership. As leaders, our thoughts and approaches can dramatically influence our abilities to navigate challenges, learn continuously, and align our vision with our actions. Some of the key takeaways from today's episode: First, building resilient leadership. Resilience isn't just about bouncing back from setbacks. It's about leveraging challenges as stepping stones for growth. By focusing on personal and team strengths, seeking constructive feedback, and learning from mentors, leaders can develop a robust, resilient culture. Second, commitment to continuous learning. Staying ahead in an evolving business landscape requires a commitment to lifelong learning. Engaging in continuous education, executive shadowing, and participating in mastermind groups can provide fresh perspectives and innovative ideas to enhance leadership effectiveness. Third, aligning vision with action. Strategic success comes from clear vision and alignment. Regularly communicating your vision and setting measurable goals with accountability and utilizing visualization techniques can ensure that every effort is directed towards the end goal, optimizing resources and enhancing organizational coherence. Thanks so much for listening. Make sure that you subscribe so you never miss an episode. As always, please leave your thoughts in the comments.
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Sara Sheehan’s guest in this episode is Sri Chellappa, Co-Founder and CEO of Engagedly and host of the People Strategy Leaders Podcast. Sri Chellappa talks about Engagedly and the purpose behind its development while highlighting the importance of employee engagement and the right kind of performance management. Developing and maintaining talent requires a transparent and interactive approach which Sri elaborates on for Sara.
In his previous work in IT consulting, Sri discovered that many employees were not feeling appreciated or recognized for the right roles in advancement, and many of them didn’t understand where their organization was headed. Engagedly was created to fill that gap: to assist organizations in delivering better engagement at every level of employee and management. While software alone cannot solve the problem, it can provide a platform and guidance from which organizations can become more employee-centric. And that is what Sri believes is the necessary future of workplaces.
In this episode, Sara Sheehan and Sri Chellappa discuss what transparency means within an organization, how true transparency builds trust with employees, the pros and cons of performance evaluations, and why they both believe mentoring and coaching are necessary components to success. Sri has a lot of practical insight into employee-centric thinking and how to best use performance reviews for employee improvement and relations with the company overall. He sees the trends in Engagedly and also talks about what businesses are facing on his podcast. The wisdom shared here is invaluable to moving a company towards more meaningful engagement at all levels of the organization.
About Sri Chellappa:
Sri Chellappa is the CEO/President and Co-Founder of Engagedly, an AI-enabled people strategy platform software that redefines performance appraisals by simplifying and incorporating elements of employee engagement and development into the performance review process.
A passionate entrepreneur and leader in building high-performance organizations that care about their people, Sri brings over 20 years of experience in leading organizations in software development and consulting in the U.S to his current role. Having developed an extensive amount of experience from managing teams in his previous roles at EY and Capgemini, Sri understands the value of investing in employees and the overall impact it not only has on their individual performance but the success of the company. As a result, he continues to use his leadership skills to make influential decisions that will impact employees, helping them to stay engaged and develop the talent that they need to succeed and advance in their careers.
With a unique background in technology, people management, health IT and film writing, directing, and production, Sri brings a diverse set of experiences across industries and specialties to build highly engaged organizations.
Career Highlights:
Author of the book: “The Black Book of Agile Project Delivery with Distributed Teams”Writer/Director/Producer of 6 Feature Films distributed theatrically and via Netflix, NBCUniversal, Fox International, Showtime, Amazon Prime, Sky, and various international channels.__
Resources discussed in this episode:
“The Performance Management Revolution” by Peter Cappelli and Anna Tavis, from HBR October 2016—
Contact Sara Sheehan | Sara Sheehan Consulting:
SaraWSheehan.comSara Sheehan on LinkedInMeet with SaraContact Sri Chellappa:
Website: Engagedly.comPodcast: People Strategy Leaders PodcastLinkedIn__
Transcript
Sara Sheehan: [00:00:02] Hi there, I'm Sara Sheehan and welcome to my podcast Transformational Thinkers with Sara Sheehan. Today I am talking with my friend Sri Chellappa about his focus on talent development, employee engagement, and performance management and finally coaching in all that he does as co-founder, president and CEO of Engagedly and so Sri, I would love to hear a little bit about the backstory that led to you creating Engagedly.
Sri Chellappa: [00:00:39] Yeah. Thanks, Sara, for having me on your show. Really looking forward to having this discussion. It's been a few times we've chatted and it's been a good conversation so far. Regarding Engagedly, you know, my background actually led me to Engagedly in many ways. My background was in technology consulting. I helped organizations with developing and deploying, you know, different automation approaches to their processes, as part of my role as consultant with Big Five back in the day. And then I ran a IT consulting firm with other partners as well. But we did a lot of work with healthcare companies in that as well. And one thing I noticed a lot during my experience, and I've done this consulting work between the two experiences, about 18 years at that point, and what I learned a lot was that many of these organizations that we worked with, or at least tried to work with in some cases, had situations where the employees didn't feel like they were being appreciated, they didn't feel like they were getting the right roles or getting the right responsibility, or the management was listening to them or didn't have clarity on what the organization was going so there's a lot of uncertainty that was giving them frustration. And I think that was very pervasive back then. It's gotten better over the years because we have gotten a lot more employee-centric in the last few years.
Sri Chellappa: [00:02:11] But Engagedly was born out of that gap we saw in the market that organizations could use a platform to drive better engagement within their organizations and build better teams and more engaged people that will ultimately perform better for them in the long run. You know, with those investments. And obviously, it's not just the software that can solve the problem. There are a lot of cultural changes they have to make, management approaches that have they'll have to change. So that was the initial impetus for starting Engagedly, because the name itself, as it implies, is to, you know, have more engaged employees in the organization. So we started that about nine years ago and over the years we've realized that engagement is not just about having, you know, just a badge given to somebody or an award or a plaque or foosball tables and, you know, free lunches and things like that. It's about every part of the touchpoint an employee has in their journey within the organization, starting with the recruitment process on the way to onboarding and then training, then their experiences with their manager, the kind of psychological safety they have within the organization, their performance discussions and performance reviews, all of that.
Sara Sheehan: [00:03:26] Absolutely.
Sri Chellappa: [00:03:27] So Engagedly became obviously more than just a platform that was driving engagement through rewards and recognition and social connections. We became a lot more than that.
Sara Sheehan: [00:03:37] Excellent. And as you look at how the world of work has changed in the last few years, which it's changed quite a bit following the pandemic, what do you think is critical for employers to get right in the workplace to attract and retain talent?
Sri Chellappa: [00:03:53] I think the two biggest elements that the management has to do better, and I'm seeing some directional movement in the positive direction there, is build better transparency and trust with the organizations. And I know there are very loaded generic words, seem like platitude, but they really are extremely important. And what that transparency means is not just saying, you know, we're a transparent organization, you can come and talk to me any time, and things like that, but it's actually saying we as an organization stand for this. We as an organization have this goal and we as an organization have these challenges, being transparent about the problems and challenges, being also celebrating successes along the way, and then keeping an open, almost like an open book for the employees to participate in and look at. And that's the transparency, right? Which is saying, this is how we did last quarter. Here's where we lost a few customers. We lost a few employees. We screwed up here. We didn't do a good job. But then also here are things we are that are going well and being transparent about it and not trying to, you know, throw it under the rug. The trust part comes from having the culture where you are allowed to have dissenting voices, because some of the best progress comes from disagreements that teams have within, so they can have an open disagreement, agree to disagree and move on. Right? So Jeff Bezos actually talks about this in many of his podcasts is you can agree to disagree. But then you can disagree and commit.
Sara Sheehan: [00:05:39] Mhm. Absolutely. And on the transparency side I would even offer that there are quite a few companies that have started getting extremely transparent about pay practices, where it's part of the actual recruiting process, where they say, hey, we have really specific pay prescribed for a particular role at a particular level. That's very open and transparent to employees as they come in that no matter what gender you are, you would get paid the same. Or your level of experience. And so I do think those kinds of things that employers can do make a huge difference. The comments that you have on trust are just tremendous, because I think that employees have gotten to the point where they definitely lack trust in the employer. And so anything that a leader can do to be more trustworthy, to build more meaningful relationships and staff, I believe it will bode well not only for the company's performance, but for individual performance too.
Sri Chellappa: [00:06:58] Yeah, and trust is built through actions, right? Your words must translate to actions. So if you are saying we are a transparent organization, but you then don't share any data or you--
Sara Sheehan: [00:07:14] -- that's right.
Sri Chellappa: [00:07:14] -- try to build an organization where there's backstabbing and you tolerate that, or you tolerate toxic environment just because somebody is extremely good at delivering results but is causing a lot of frustration within team members. And you live with it because you're like, well, I can't let this person go or move this person to a different role because it's going to affect our results overall. But it is affecting your results because you're losing people and their trust in the organization. So trust--
Sara Sheehan: [00:07:45] -- that's right.
Sri Chellappa: [00:07:46] -- go together in many ways, to be honest.
Sara Sheehan: [00:07:49] I couldn't agree with that more. Couldn't agree with that more.
Sri Chellappa: [00:07:52] You know, the one other aspect I would say about trust is, you know, when you say we care about our employees, how do you show that? Like we are employee-centric, okay, how does that reflect? We are a, you know, diverse organization. We support DEI initiatives. How are you reflecting that within your organization? Are you taking specific actions to do that, you know, and that's how you build trust, by backing your words with actual actions.
Sara Sheehan: [00:08:20] Most, most definitely, tracking your words with actions and having some sort of a KPI or a measure to demonstrate it from a data perspective that you can share later, which I think, Sri, you even mentioned in an earlier comment as well. So that is absolutely right on. I think talent-based data and analytics are critical to develop that trust and transparency. Moving on, in terms of performance management, because I know Engagedly does have performance management functionality, the process of performance management has had mixed results in the workplace over the years, and many companies have opted even to remove the process from its previous incarnations. So I would be really interested to hear how it is working for you, how that functionality is working for you. I know that there are companies that have removed performance evaluations and end of project evaluations, as well as end of performance year evaluations, which seems like a lot to remove just to get out of the almost, it's almost causing a brain response that's negative in the person that's receiving the feedback. So what's your perspective on continuous performance management these days?
Sri Chellappa: [00:10:00] Well, let me actually back up that a little bit. There was an article that was written in HBR in 2016, I believe it was written by Anna Tavis and Peter Cappelli, if I remember right, around the case to, I can't remember the exact title of the article, but it was a case to do away with performance reviews or change the performance reviews to some effect like that. That article actually got a widespread read everywhere. People started talking about it in big, and that drove a lot of changes, because what the authors, Anna Tavis - who's been on my podcast as well, she's phenomenal, she's a professor at NYU - what she said is that, if I remember, is that the annual performance reviews are useless, and they're actually having the opposite effect of what they should be having. And in most cases, that is actually true. That started the whole revolution of people wanting to not do annual reviews or doing away with annual reviews. You know, Adobe started a big trend around that, and then Deloitte followed, and then there were a few other companies that started doing that. And then that has kind of come a full circle to some extent, where more and more companies did that and then they started doing reviews again. And I think the problem was not necessarily whether you should do or not do annual reviews, it is what you do in the middle. That's the big one. And that's where the continuous performance review concept comes into play. If you remove the performance review process and you don't do anything else, that doesn't solve the problem. It actually makes it worse as well.
Sri Chellappa: [00:11:32] If you only do performance reviews, what you're doing is you are looking at having a performance conversation only once a year. And we know that in, at least most humans, including myself, have short term memories better than long term memories. So we remember more of the stuff that happened in the last few weeks versus the thing that happened all year long.
Sara Sheehan: [00:11:54] Right.
Sri Chellappa: [00:11:54] And some of the things that we should have had conversations with them about months ago are not happening now because we probably forgot about it, you know, or there's only so much time you can have a discussion about it. So annual performance reviews without having ongoing performance reviews is a very bad practice in general, because you are missing out on having ongoing discussions throughout the year. I think my personal philosophy is that you kind of need to do both. The annual review is really recapping your entire performance year's discussions. It is not a discussion that should be generally be a surprise. You know, I was talking to--
Sara Sheehan: [00:12:30] -- exactly.
Sri Chellappa: [00:12:31] Yeah. So I was talking to somebody else earlier today, a CHRO of one of the manufacturing companies, and she was saying that in her first role when she got a performance review, she had to rate herself, and she was completely surprised when she heard what the manager rated her after the discussion. And that should generally not be the case if you've been having ongoing conversations, right?
Sara Sheehan: [00:12:55] If you're in tune with the person you're working with. Yes.
Sri Chellappa: [00:12:58] Yeah. So I'm a big fan of obviously ongoing conversations, ongoing performance reviews, but they have to be meaningful and they have to be some, and evidence-based to some extent, you know, so that's why we have the whole concept of real-time feedback in our system. You have concepts of goals and OKRs that have check-ins on a weekly basis, or you review them every quarter and you're staying keeping tracks of that. We have a tool in our system called meetings, where you can generate and schedule one-on-one meetings with a standing agenda, with an employee and a manager. Those are all different avenues of having these performance conversations with your people, and they should be driven by the data. So this is what we planned on doing for this quarter or this month or this week. How did we do? Where are the obstacles? What challenges are you facing? And then give them coaching on where they might be struggling with, and those kind of discussions, if they happen more frequently, at the end of the year when you're having annual review, you can, you basically have all this history that you can bring to the table and say, hey, over the last year this is what happened. And we both know about it because it's, also it's in the system now. So, you know, it's not based on some notes we took on a notepad somewhere. A lot more effective performance conversations.
Sara Sheehan: [00:14:08] And I think that is very compelling and interesting. And are you finding that many of your active clients are utilizing the functionality?
Sri Chellappa: [00:14:18] Yeah. So if I look at our customers, we have about 450, almost 500 customers at this point, I believe.
Sara Sheehan: [00:14:25] That's impressive.
Sri Chellappa: [00:14:26] Thank you. What we have seen is that almost all of them do some sort of an annual or a bi-annual, or some of them do quarterly reviews as well. So they do do that. And about 60 to 70% of them do goal-setting and do goal check-ins and goal discussions. So there's, and then there's also concept of check-ins where they can do a check-in with their employees, so they're doing that as well. So I'm seeing it's fairly common at this point with our client base.
Sara Sheehan: [00:14:55] That's fantastic. It's good to see a little balance coming back into the equation. You know, where people see value in keeping the conversation moving forward. And ideally, if they're really thinking about providing feedback, that can be constructive and helpful.
Sri Chellappa: [00:15:13] Yeah, I think the balance is important because annual performance reviews got a bad rap because you are not doing the other things in the middle. The answer is not to do away with it, and by the way, you can do away with it as well. I'm not arguing one way or the other, but you. But what I am arguing for that those ongoing conversations throughout the year, that you cannot do away with, that you need to still do, whether you do annual reviews or not. Some organizations want to do annual reviews because that's the way they can draw a line in the sand and say this, we are closing out the year, this is a review so we know who to promote, who to, you know, give a raise to, and then who we keep in the organization, who we don't keep in the organization, things of this nature. Right? So they have some kind of a process that is driven by this performance review. So some organizations do it for that purpose. Some organizations do it because that's the way to also say we close out this performance year, let's start the new year. And that's a clean way of doing that. But the best organizations that do it is the ones that use that as a mechanism to say, let's recap the year. Let's look at the growth areas based on the last year and your, and your aspirations, where you want to go, and let us talk about that. So using that performance review.
Sara Sheehan: [00:16:22] That's very powerful.
Sri Chellappa: [00:16:23] Yeah. Using the performance review conversations and turning that into a more effective looking forward conversations, I think that's what the effective organizations have.
Sara Sheehan: [00:16:33] That is definitely a step change in performance management that I would love to see take hold. And so, Sri, I know that you're a strong supporter of executive coaching and you've developed part of your platform for mentoring and coaching. What kind of results are your clients experiencing that use that?
Sri Chellappa: [00:16:56] So there is mentoring and there's coaching, though I will make a slight differentiation between the two, although the lines do blur. So coaching is really focused on performance of that individual. So if you are a manager, you can be a coach to that employee to coach them to do better in their role. But it'll be hard for you to be a mentor because you cannot dissociate the employee's performance and their reporting relationship from you because that is real. A mentor usually is somebody who does not directly manage you and is not focused on your individual work performance and on specific KPIs. They are focused on your growth as an individual, growth within the organization, growth even in your personal life as well. So for both of these things, we actually have tools for that. Now you can use the same tool for either one of them, really depending on the relationship between the two people, the mentoring is typically done in for multiple use cases. In some organizations, they use it to get somebody who's joined new in the organization, get them to get used to and acclimatize the culture, really a way for them to imbibe that culture, understand the different power centers in the organization, because you need to know that, you know, as a new employee, you need to know how to understand and play nicely within that organization.
Sri Chellappa: [00:18:17] So a mentor really helps them guide that. You can, so we have a lot of clients using that for mentoring. Executive mentoring obviously is slightly different. That's more around how do I be a better manager, be a better leader, be a better organization builder, things of this nature. In those cases, the mentor is somebody typically outside the organization who doesn't have a bias of the organization. And you can openly talk about your challenges and it gets lonely on the top, as you are, you're aware as well, right? Because you may have a lot of frustrations and challenges and even doubts in your own abilities for sometimes, and you can't go and share that with the employees all the time. You know, you will de-motivate them.
Sara Sheehan: [00:19:03] Oh definitely not.
Sri Chellappa: [00:19:04] But potentially even lose trust in the process.
Sara Sheehan: [00:19:06] Right.
Sri Chellappa: [00:19:07] So you kind of need an external coach, external mentor to help you bounce those ideas, even talk about things that you would never say out loud with your people in your organization, because things that you might be thinking about that could be so out of the realms of reality that you can talk through those ideas and see what what might work for you. So from a results perspective, you know, to your question, you know, people who have, everybody should have mentors. In fact, I was talking to somebody last week who runs mentoring programs for different organizations in the UK, and he was talking about, which I agree with as well, is that not only should you have one mentor, but you should have multiple mentors for different reasons.
Sara Sheehan: [00:19:49] Absolutely. I couldn't agree with that more.
Sri Chellappa: [00:19:51] And from a results perspective, it is proven by data in our case, as well as in our customers case, as well as in research studies, that people who have mentors and coaches perform better, they stay in the organization longer, and they get promoted more frequently than the other ones do.
Sara Sheehan: [00:20:08] That's right. That's right. I feel like executive coaching is very similar in results, because you have a structured process that allows you to ideate and collaborate in a safe place. And allows you that opportunity to be creative and think of new solutions that you may not in any other type of situation. Do you have any case studies or client success stories that you that you could share that demonstrate the results and transformation that Engagedly is delivering for clients?
Sri Chellappa: [00:20:52] Oh, there are several. You know, there are, we did a research study, it's been a little over a year so we need to rerun that research study again. We saw that over 60% of our customers, 60% of the time, or 60% more I should say, customers saw increase in engagement in their organization.
Sara Sheehan: [00:21:15] Excellent.
Sri Chellappa: [00:21:16] There was a massive lift in manager/employee communications and recognition across the organization. And those two elements, for example, and there are more, are directly correlated to company performance through all the research. Right? So there's been immense, now you have to do it right. You know, you could use our tool and just do annual reviews and do it the wrong way and get the wrong results. But if you follow what we believe is the right approach, which we've been talking about, the results are quite impressive, actually. You know, with those little, just those little tweaks.
Sara Sheehan: [00:21:55] It is mind boggling to me that having the structure of a platform like yours, along with some solid guidance on how to employ it in real conversations with employees, can make such a difference. So I do applaud you, Sri, for all that you are delivering--
Sri Chellappa: [00:22:16] -- thank you--
Sara Sheehan: [00:22:17] -- to help your clients transform and engage their employees more. You, Sri, mentioned earlier in our conversation that of course you have an established podcast, People Strategy Leaders podcast. Besides AI, what are the most interesting emerging trends in the workplace that we need to solve for that you are hearing about through business or your podcast?
Sri Chellappa: [00:22:46] That's a good one. So AI obviously has a huge impact in many ways. The other one that I'm hearing a lot about, not hearing, but I'm seeing also, is that because of the whole move to work from home for a lot of organizations, the organizations have become a lot more distributed because people have moved from bigger cities, in many cases are not coming back. People have started working with other people in other countries because if like, if I can work with somebody in New York or, you know, Chicago or wherever the other person is, I can do the same thing with people working in Mexico or India or Middle East or wherever the other people are, or Europe. So that has created a little bit of a challenge where now you have teams where a part of the team is in the same location and the other part is distributed across the world. So now managing that distributed hybrid structure is a challenge for a lot of managers and a lot of leaders, because they're not used to it. Sure, there are organizations and people who are used to it. If you were in consulting, for example, you're quite used to it because you're used to traveling and working remotely and working with your managers remotely. Your team was always distributed, you saw them maybe once every 2 or 3 weeks in an office because they're always on the client side.
Sara Sheehan: [00:24:02] Right.
Sri Chellappa: [00:24:02] But if you were a company that for years worked together and you didn't have necessarily a formal processes because you could just go and tap on somebody's shoulder and ask a question, that doesn't always work anymore when you have teams distributed.
Sara Sheehan: [00:24:17] Right, that's a big change.
Sri Chellappa: [00:24:18] And I think that's a huge change for, at least for knowledge workers, you know. The knowledge worker services, professional services, things of this nature, huge change. And managers have to be trained on how to manage teams like that. Because what can happen is that there is another thing called proximity bias, where you start biasing towards people who are close to you and you'll promote them more. You will give them a raise more, you'll give them more responsibility and more important projects. But the person who's sitting, you know, two time zones away from you may not get the same level of attention and focus, and they might get disengaged in the process. So there are challenges that they have to manage. You know, if you're on a conference call together as a team and three of you are in the room, the other three are on a Zoom call somewhere else, you know, the interactions you're going to have are going to be different. The body language you pick up are going to be different, you know? And so those are some of the challenges that organizations have to face. And how do you run an unbiased environment where everybody gets equal opportunity and equal attention to some extent, you know?
Sara Sheehan: [00:25:24] For sure. I definitely think proximity bias is real, having worked with so many distributed teams in my career, and I think one of the biggest success factors that I experienced in working with a distributed team is making sure that I get to know all of the team members, no matter where they are. Spending time with them and getting to know them does make a huge difference.
Sri Chellappa: [00:25:50] Yeah, yeah. And some people can't adjust. They just can't. And some people adjust really well. And some people are used to that environment. So there are, you know, there are changes and the people have to be trained to do that. I think that's a big one. Apart from that, you know, the other, the other big one I think is driving, this is something I was very interested, interesting data that I saw. You know, the unemployment rate is still pretty low, you know, despite all the attempts by the Fed to increase it so that we can have lower inflation. But if you actually look beneath the data, the unemployment rate is low in many of the roles where you don't think of them as critical or think of them as hard to get, right, which are more frontline workers and things like that. Manufacturing. But if you look at technology roles, the unemployment rate is not that great. You know, it is a little bit higher there. It is harder to find a job in many of those high skill knowledge worker space to some extent. And I think that's because of, part of it is because of AI is displacing a lot of jobs, I think it is already started doing that, and a part of it is also because we have, organizations have become, especially technology organizations have become a lot more efficient because they hire too much in 2021 and 2022, and 2023, they started laying off people, as you saw with massive layoffs at Tesla and Google and Facebook and Microsoft and all the big ones, literally Amazon. Everybody laid off people and they're still doing it. There's another round of layoffs at Tesla going on. There's another round that's coming out at Google and Amazon, so.
Sara Sheehan: [00:27:40] Peloton's laid a lot of people off, I've heard. There are quite a few, quite a few additional layoffs going on in the Big Four world. So it's still a big issue.
Sri Chellappa: [00:27:51] Still a big issue. I think that's gonna rattle a lot of tech workers, especially if you're in the tech side of things, I think that's a big change, at least from a specific industry perspective, that we are seeing. There's one generational issue that we are facing is that we just have fewer workers in America.
Sara Sheehan: [00:28:07] That's exactly right. I was actually going to ask you because I was sensing that part of it, part of the low unemployment number, is based on the fact that we have such a large workforce that is retiring right now, and we do not have as many people joining the workforce based on age.
Sri Chellappa: [00:28:29] Yes. You know, I'm looking at the data here. So we've lost like 3% of workforce just last year.
Sara Sheehan: [00:28:39] It's just vaporized.
Sri Chellappa: [00:28:40] Less people working now than they did three years ago. And that translates to several million, by the way. So it sounds like 3 million, but that's several million people that are just not available to work. So now you have to figure out how to do more with less, but also means that you can't deliver services as effectively.
Sara Sheehan: [00:28:59] Mhm. Well it might mean you have to think differently about what you do, what your offerings are and how you interact with your client to deliver an excellent experience. It might look a little different.
Sri Chellappa: [00:29:11] Yeah. And the ones you do hire you have to now really pay attention to how do you keep them.
Sara Sheehan: [00:29:16] Yes, absolutely. To retain and promote talent.
Sri Chellappa: [00:29:22] Yeah.
Sara Sheehan: [00:29:22] And so, Sri, just to double click on the People Strategy Leaders podcast, could you characterize some of the things that you've learned and all of the conversations you've had so far, because you've talked to quite a few people at this point.
Sri Chellappa: [00:29:37] I think the common theme I'm hearing a lot more these days than before, which I have been talking about for a while, but I thought it was was just mainly me but it's not, is the fact that we need to support and empower and develop more middle managers. They are the pillars of your organization. And if you don't, you can have great leaders, you can have really good frontline workers or people on the individual contributor levels, but if you don't have a strong cadre of middle level managers, your first line manager, second line managers, and third line managers in some cases, your organization cannot thrive.
Sara Sheehan: [00:30:19] I couldn't agree with that more.
Sri Chellappa: [00:30:21] Because they are the ones implementing your strategy. Leaders are talking about it, but they are the ones implementing it.
Sara Sheehan: [00:30:27] That's right.
Sri Chellappa: [00:30:28] If you don't figure out a way to develop them and make sure they are the best managers you can build and get in your organization, you're kind of in trouble as an organization. You can't scale because that's how you--
Sara Sheehan: [00:30:41] Well, you're not heading in the right direction, that's for sure. We're seeing in a lot of services that are selling successfully that leadership development is on the rise as a positive, good experience to provide your middle managers especially so that you can grow more leaders at more levels of your organization. So in 23 and 24, we have started seeing an uptick in those kinds of services sales. And those clients are experiencing significant improvement in performance.
Sri Chellappa: [00:31:23] Yes, yes.
Sara Sheehan: [00:31:25] So very interesting and compelling comments from you there, Sri. What are your big aspirational goals? What would you love to be able to accomplish or achieve?
Sri Chellappa: [00:31:41] As an individual or as a leader?
Sara Sheehan: [00:31:44] As a president, co-founder, and CEO of your company, what would you like to be able to achieve?
Sri Chellappa: [00:31:53] So the, as a leader, I think one of the big things I would like to grow personally into is how do I be a better communicator to the organization? To me, I can have all the great ideas, but if I cannot communicate and implement those, and that comes through largely through communication, to that first level, second level, third level of management, if I can't do that effectively, then all my ideas as a leader won't come to fruition. So I need to, I need to continue to develop myself to do a better job at that. You know, there is no lack of great ideas. You can read them, you can Google them and read them and get all the ideas you want through listening to podcasts like these and or listening to, you know, Ted talks and YouTube and reading HBR articles and books. Ideas are all out there and they're free. The most successful leaders are the ones who are figuring out how to use, pick the best ones that will work for them and their organization, and then drive the implementation to its logical, you know, direction and conclusion. And I think that's a big area of growth that I have been focusing on personally. As an organization, you know, we want to build a platform that helps organizations connect their people strategy to employee aspirations, because when they both get aligned better, people find fulfillment in their work and organizations achieve their business goals. And that's what we want to do as a platform.
Sara Sheehan: [00:33:24] Absolutely. And so how would you answer that question from a personal perspective? Do you have any personal aspirations that you are developing goals around right now?
Sri Chellappa: [00:33:34] Yeah. So our personal goal is to, with our organization, is to get and build a platform that actually delivers a lot of insights so that we can build better middle managers for our clients. We can build better HR processes that delivers on the promise that HR makes to their organization, or the organization makes to their people, and have a platform that can actually implement their strategy. I think if more effectively, using AI, using workflow automation, using better user experience and delivering on that. So basically it becomes like an enablement platform for their strategy.
Sara Sheehan: [00:34:17] Well, Sri, I am so impressed with you and the Engagedly organization and the value that you're delivering for clients. I know that the best is yet to come, and you'll keep refining your offerings and your solution and make it even more valuable for clients.
Sri Chellappa: [00:34:34] Well, thank you, Sara. I appreciate your kind words.
Sara Sheehan: [00:34:37] Absolutely. Is there anything else that you'd like to share? Is there anything on your mind today as you think about current challenges in the business world?
Sri Chellappa: [00:34:47] I think we have to become, live the words we speak when we say we are a people leaders, we are people-centric, we care about our people, you know, if you heard all these words, we have to live true to those words. I think leaders, managers, directors, VPs, everybody has to live those words. And that requires people to build organizations that are more transparent and trust because we cannot, we moved away from the paradigm of tell me what to do and I'll do it, is to let us work on this together, I want your ideas, and your ideas are as valuable as my ideas. Let the best idea win. I think that model, moving to that model, will have better outcome and you'll have better organizations.
Sara Sheehan: [00:35:40] I definitely believe that collaboration and innovation will bring tremendous results and growth. I'm one of those people that lives in this space of growth and comfort do not coexist.
Sri Chellappa: [00:35:59] No, no, I actually wrote that in one of the internal memos that I write some occasionally to my people. I said growth happens at the edge of discomfort. So if you're comfortable, you're probably not growing. And that's true if you're working out, you know, that's what resistance training is, right?
Sara Sheehan: [00:36:19] Absolutely.
Sri Chellappa: [00:36:20] You're uncomfortable.
Sara Sheehan: [00:36:21] You have to find a way to make yourself uncomfortable so that you can grow and get stronger. And so Sri, tell me, how can our listeners find you? What's the best way for them to find you and reach out to you?
Sri Chellappa: [00:36:36] I'm pretty active on LinkedIn. Sri - S R I - Chellappa I believe is the handle. Or if you type in Srikanth Chellappa, my full name, you'll probably find me on LinkedIn. And you know, I also have my podcast, People Strategy Leaders podcast, which is available on all podcast channels and also videos on YouTube. And obviously you can learn more about Engagedly on Engagedly.com - E N G A G E D L Y dot com.
Sara Sheehan: [00:37:02] Excellent. Thank you so much for your time today, Sri. I very much appreciate it.
Sri Chellappa: [00:37:07] Yes. Thanks, Sara.
Sara Sheehan: [00:37:08] Thank you so much for joining me for today's episode. What a pleasure it was to talk with Sri Chellappa, Co-Founder and CEO of Engagedly. Here are some key takeaways from our thought-provoking discussion today. Embrace ongoing performance conversations. Annual performance reviews might be on their way out as they often fall short in driving meaningful change. Instead, focus on regular, evidence-based performance conversations that occur throughout the year. Cultivate a transparent and trust-based culture. Organizations thrive when built on transparency and trust. Embrace open communication, encourage diverse voices, and ensure actions align with stated values to foster a collaborative and innovative work environment. Harness the power of coaching and mentoring. Investing in coaching and mentoring programs can lead to improved performance, higher retention rates, and increased employee engagement. Empower your workforce through mentorship for long term success. Join me in exploring these transformative ideas and more on the latest episode. Let's shape workplaces that inspire growth and excellence together. Thanks for joining me today. I look forward to hearing your thoughts in the comments.
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Sara Sheehan’s guest in this episode is Robin L. Owens, PhD, a tenured professor in religious studies at Mount Saint Mary’s University in LA and host of the podcast ‘Leadership Purpose with Dr. Robin’. Dr. Robin shares the childhood drive that led her to her third career in religious studies and why she focuses on helping high-achieving women find their leadership purpose through passion, values, and their zone of genius.
Dr. Robin can trace her interest in contemplating the meaning of life right back to when she was six years old, but religious studies wouldn’t become her focus until her third career. Her whole life, however, is motivated by faith. She believes we are all created with a purpose and that it’s our life goal to express that purpose. Some of us express it through life or in big sweeping events, but most of us express it through work and finding our true selves.
In this episode, Sara Sheehan learns why Dr. Robin wrote her two books, how our lives give us clues to the values we possess and what our purpose might be, and how Dr. Robin uses her leadership coaching to guide other women in finding their true purpose and expression of self. Dr. Robin shares moving examples of client successes and she explains the process through which she encourages authors to turn their books into courses to reach a wider audience. The conversation is inspirational and full of beautiful examples of true transformation and leadership.
About Robin L. Owens, PhD:
Robin L. Owens, Ph.D. is a college professor and who spends her time outside of the classroom fulfilling her mission to support high-achieving women leaders.
She describes high-achieving women leaders this way. “They are women who are ambitious, goal-oriented, professional, in official leadership roles or unofficial leadership roles. They are often highly responsible at work and at home… and are doing all the things. They are the ones that are always supporting others. They rarely get support because others think they don’t need it.”
In service to her mission to support high-achieving women leaders--
Robin is the host of the popular podcast “Leadership Purpose with Dr. Robin,” creator of the Purpose-Based, Decision-Making System, founder of MASTERFUL Course Creations, LLC, and author of the forthcoming book – Making Purpose-Based Decisions: An Inspirational Guide to More Meaning and Purpose in Your Business or Career”-- and the newly released book “My Faith in the Constitution is Whole: Barbara Jordan and the Politics of Scripture” which is about the unique way Barbara Jordan lived out her leadership purpose.
Robin has over 20 years of experience in researching, teaching and studying meaning and purpose in the lives and work of women leaders. She combines her experience in business, social work and higher education to bring a powerful and personable perspective to her mission of empowering high-achieving women leaders.
Resources discussed in this episode:
New book waiting list: “M.A.K.E Purpose-Based Decisions” by Robin L. Owens, PhD“My Faith in the Constitution is Whole: Barbara Jordan and the Politics of Scripture” by Robin L. Owens, PhD—
Contact Sara Sheehan | Sara Sheehan Consulting:
SaraWSheehan.comSara Sheehan on LinkedInMeet with SaraContact Robin L. Owens, PhD:
Website: RobinLOwens.comPodcast: Leadership Purpose with Dr. RobinLinkedIn__
Transcript
Sara Sheehan: [00:00:02] Hi there, I'm Sara Sheehan and welcome to my podcast, Transformational Thinkers with Sara Sheehan. Today I'm talking with my friend Doctor Robin Owens about her focus on leadership purpose in all that she does in her work as a tenured professor in religious studies at Mount Saint Mary's University in LA, on her podcast Leadership Purpose with Doctor Robin and in her books. Doctor Robin, I am so glad to get to spend time with you today and you are such an interesting, interesting person and you have such a warm heart that I'm so glad to be able to share you with our listeners.
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:00:50] Thank you Sara, I'm just so glad to be here. I consider it an honor. I know, I can tell your commitment to this work and how important it is to you to get this message out, so it's a joy and a privilege to be here. Thank you for having me.
Sara Sheehan: [00:01:03] Absolutely. I'm thrilled to have you here today. And so tell me a little bit about what led you to get a PhD in Religious Studies from Claremont Graduate University.
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:01:15] Pursuing a PhD was a third career move. I'm guessing some listeners might understand something about a third career move, but if I really look back and reflect on it, I think it's at the core of who I am to always pursue the big questions of life. And that's what the PhD in Religious Studies helped me to do: pursue the big questions of meaning and purpose. And when I have a distinct memory of being about six years old, and when I look back, I think this is where it all started. And it took me three careers to get there. But that's where it started. Six years old, summertime, out of school for the summer, sitting on the front porch of my family's home, it has a big front porch, three story family home in Connecticut, and I think a lot of the homes in the northeast are like this looks like a big house on the outside, but there are three family units in the inside. So my parents owned the home, my cousins lived on the second and third floor. There are about eight cousins and siblings and all of us. But I was not with them, i was sitting on the front porch quietly, having some time to myself, looking across the street into the trees, and I hear my father inside with the other, my siblings and cousins, they were playing and about to come out onto the porch, and he said to them, Don't go out there and bother Robin, she's out there contemplating the meaning of life. And they laughed and they thought that was so funny. And I felt embarrassed because I was not like the other kids, you know, they were all playing together and I was out there by myself. And so I felt weird. I felt like I was the weird one and the strange one. But when I became an adult and I started thinking, reflecting on that, I was like, oh my goodness, my father knew, he was right. I was doing that and he was protecting me. He wasn't shaming me. He was protecting my time. And so--
Sara Sheehan: [00:03:32] -- that's beautiful.
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:03:33] I've always been that person since then until now. So I believe that's at the crux of pursuing a PhD in religion.
Sara Sheehan: [00:03:40] Excellent. So you are always contemplating the deeper meaning in life, even at six years old.
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:03:47] Yes.
Sara Sheehan: [00:03:47] That's excellent. And so what role would you say that your faith has played in creating your current career foundation in publishing and speaking, in teaching, obviously in higher education, in writing and podcasting and more?
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:04:08] Yes. My whole life is motivated by faith. I believe, for me and for everyone, but I'm talking about for me, I believe we are all created with a purpose. And I believe it's our life's work to then express that purpose, whether it's in the job, a career or not. We are created to express what that is, and I believe it is not always what people tend to think. Generally, they think it's a big, you know, huge, monumental thing like curing, curing cancer. It could be that. But for most people, I believe it is to express the best of who you are, who you were created to be. Your true self. Now these sound all kind of vague words like who is that? But for me, I have a way of understanding and have learned to teach others how to get at who they are. And then the purpose is to just express that, whether you express it on your job or somewhere else. And I tend to focus on expressing it through work. But that's a spiritual principle that guides me. And so based on my faith that we are created to express our purpose.
Sara Sheehan: [00:05:29] And so essentially what our foundational design is.
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:05:33] Yes.
Sara Sheehan: [00:05:34] Is what we're talking about here. And so talk with me a little bit more about what you think leadership purpose is and how passion, values, natural abilities, and service play into it.
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:05:49] Yes, that is everything I just said in a nutshell, right? I believe, like I said, we're called to express ourselves. That's our purpose. And when you do that through your vocation, through your career, through your work, that's what I call leadership purpose. Now, some people might not work, they might express their purpose in other ways. For example, a parent at home with children expressing that as their purpose. So my focus is specifically when people express their purpose through their work and the way they get at their purpose. Remember I mentioned being who they truly are, I believe our life gives us clues and the clues takes the form of our passions, those things we really love, our values, those things that really matter to us. Our natural abilities, gifts, strengths, zone of genius. And when we combine those things not in and of themselves, only when those, all three of them are combined, some aspect of all three of them are combined in service to someone beyond yourself, then you're in your purpose.
Sara Sheehan: [00:07:06] And so it's combining that zone of genius--
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:07:10] -- values and passions.
Sara Sheehan: [00:07:13] Mmhmm, and that audience, essentially.
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:07:18] Yes.
Sara Sheehan: [00:07:18] The person that you're supposed to be serving.
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:07:21] Yes.
Sara Sheehan: [00:07:22] It may be a persona or a type of individual or a type of business.
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:07:27] Yes.
Sara Sheehan: [00:07:27] Or an actual ideal client.
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:07:29] Or a cause or something that's significant to you.
Sara Sheehan: [00:07:33] That's beautiful. I love that. And so talk with me a little bit about the books that you have written so far. And I say so far, because I'm pretty confident there's going to be more.
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:07:50] You must be reading my mind.
Sara Sheehan: [00:07:52] There's going to be more. And so the two books that I'm aware of, 'Making Purpose-Based Decisions: An Inspirational Guide to More Meaning and Purpose in Your Business and Career', and the other book, 'My Faith in the Constitution is Whole: Barbara Jordan and the Politics of Scripture'. I commend you for beautiful titles--
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:08:17] -- oh, thank you--
Sara Sheehan: [00:08:18] -- by the way.
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:08:19] Thank you. I appreciate that. You know, I enjoy doing that. So to hear you say that means something to me.
Sara Sheehan: [00:08:25] Excellent. And so I'd love to hear a little bit about the through-line, essentially what the main message is for the two books that you have brought into the world so far.
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:08:40] The through-line is what we've been talking about already. It's my understanding and interpretation of leadership purpose. And the Barbara Jordan was a a leader, a woman leader back in the 1970s, and she used her purpose and expressed it through her work in politics. And so that was her, she was on a mission. She happened to be Christian, but she explicitly expressed her purpose without preaching religion, but using the avenue of politics to make a difference. So that was her leadership purpose. And the other book you mentioned is on its way to be published. So it's coming out into the world soon, and that chronicles my own career journey and the lessons I've learned and how I've taught people to now discover and then express their leadership purpose.
Sara Sheehan: [00:09:40] And so a natural extrapolation of this discussion for me is if so much of your work is around leadership purpose, and you're talking with so many people in the world, whether it's a student in a classroom environment or a potential client out in the world, you, I assume, are also trying to get the people that you're working with, whether it's students or clients, to help them to tune in to what their true leadership purpose is and understand that zone of genius. Is that correct?
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:10:27] Yes, that's absolutely correct. And to help them with the end goal of expressing the best of who they are, because when they tap into their natural abilities, which we were calling zone of genius, combined, like I say, with the values and the passion in service, it's the only way to express the best of who you are. Which, by the way, is also your purpose. And so yes, I do that everywhere I go for whoever will listen, I shout it from the mountaintops.
Sara Sheehan: [00:10:58] Excellent, excellent. And so if you're helping a client outside of a higher education environment, you're working with a client professionally, you do that through coaching and what other modalities might you employ in that engagement?
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:11:19] Yes. In addition to coaching, which takes a form sort of executive leadership coaching, there is workshops. The teacher in me, as you know, I teach at a university, so the teacher in me loves to teach. I have online courses and I do, I speak, you know, keynote or whatever kinds of presentations. And it's always about this message and the transformation and confidence that could come in people's lives when they have this experience.
Sara Sheehan: [00:11:50] Excellent. And don't you also help someone, if they have created a book, turn that into a course? Isn't that one of the things, one of the many things you do.
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:12:02] It is, again the teacher in me can't help but teach. And those authors mostly so far they've been women. They've written a book because they have a message. They have something that can help others, and I consider it an honor and a privilege to be able to help them put that book in the format where they can reach so many more people. And with such, with a drastically reduced amount of time, effort and energy through a course. Of course the book has its place, but you can do more with the course. So I feel like that's part of my way of making a difference by helping them get their message out into the world in a broader way. So it's still all connected to purpose and helping them live their purpose and deliver their message.
Sara Sheehan: [00:12:52] Mhm. Let's say someone comes to you tomorrow, a new client. How long does that take? What's the time frame of a project for you when someone knocks on your door and says, Doctor Robin, I really need your help. I have a book I know I could have a course. How long will it take me to create and stand this up?
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:13:23] Now of course, that depends on the work the person does.
Sara Sheehan: [00:13:27] Of course, of course. Let's say they are an amazing achiever. They're very focused and they set aside an acceptable amount of time on a daily basis five days a week.
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:13:44] Yeah, if they did it five days a week, they could have it probably done within a month, 30 days, I would say. But the average high achieving woman in the busyness of it all, 90 days is a better time frame with all this thing came up, I'm traveling here and doing all that.
Sara Sheehan: [00:14:01] That sounds reasonable.
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:14:02] 90 days is, but I mean, when you think about it, when the book is done and doing the work to transform it into a different format, take some work and some time. But when you have a book, you have a head start on those who don't have a book, so to speak. When you're creating a course.
Sara Sheehan: [00:14:20] Well, I can certainly understand the completeness of thought, the extents that the amount of thinking that you put into the outline, follow through on major thoughts, areas that you might want to focus or dive into. Areas for additional inquiry as well as discussion or engagement.
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:14:49] Yes.
Sara Sheehan: [00:14:51] Might come out once you already have a book.
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:14:54] You're absolutely right. And often authors hear from their readers so they know what the next steps are, what people want, what the readers want to be your point. A deeper dive, so to speak, and moving into more of the implementation now that they have a general understanding of whatever their particular topic is.
Sara Sheehan: [00:15:14] Excellent. Well, I really appreciate you letting me double click a couple of levels down into the work that you do specifically with clients. I'd love to hear a couple of examples that you might be able to share of client engagements where you've actually worked with a client one on one, and the transformation that you've actually achieved based on your work with the individual, not only to highlight the individual and what they're able to do, but how you are engaging with the client and making a difference.
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:15:57] Yes, and as you mentioned earlier, I have two lanes, two lanes of clients. One we just talked about. Basically, my clients are high achieving women. Authors. And so for those who want to broaden their message and create a course based on their book, that's one lane. The second lane are women who are high achieving women who have moved up the career ladder in one way or another, only to get to the top to find that they're at the top of the wrong ladder. Something is missing. They've been working for others' expectations and doing all the things and making all the achievements and then they get there and they find that they are missing in the equation. So those are the two lanes. Which would you want to hear? You asked about the transformation, which was your question directed toward?
Sara Sheehan: [00:16:59] You are, this is totally what you would like to share. And so you could share one of each, or you could share two of one lane. It's totally up to you.
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:17:10] Okay, I'll do one of each. In the course, we'll start there, in the course creation. I distinctly remember a client who was passionate. She knew, she knew that she had a message that she wanted to get out there, but she had so much information. And even being a high achiever, she had a great level of doubt. Often times it's not the material, it's not organizing it, which I do help them do. I, like, this is the way you structure it and this is the way you can do it. But often is the question behind it is this good enough? Is this the right way? And looking for validation, which certainly is understandable. If that's not your background, you would have those concerns. So in addition to the step by step process of organizing her content and how to deliver it, because often these women who have written books are also good speakers, and so that even, that's not even the issue. It's just like, what part am I going to say when? So I saw her transformation from having what she thought was a lot of information, didn't know what to do with it, and having a, I don't want to say a crisis of confidence because that might be too strong, but really having some real confidence issues, to, at the end, not only having the course that she put out into the world with glee and joy, but she had the confidence that this was her message and that it was what she was intended to do, which was help people. And so I could see her blossom right before me, which ties back to my belief about purpose. The best of who you are. So now she's operating in the best of who she is, because she has the confidence to go forth and do her work in ways that she didn't have.
Sara Sheehan: [00:19:12] That's beautiful.
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:19:13] And on the other side of it, for the woman who is at the top of the wrong career ladder, I'm thinking of a client who had already raised her children, taking care of her husband, high ranks in her company where she's been for years, and looking back to say, where am I in all this? And interestingly enough, as I work with her, she had a book inside of her, but she didn't want to call it a book. She had all these notes and things that she had collected, these brilliant thoughts, and she said, I have a writing project. Because she too was afraid, that was their confidence issue, to call it a book, because she hadn't done a book yet and she was uncertain about are these thoughts good enough to call a book? Although she had been working with people throughout her career, coaching and counseling within the job context. So we walk through those, I helped her understand what I said to you before - passions, values, natural abilities - and how to use those in service in a way that works for her. And this is for clients whether they want to do that still within their job, or if they decide that they want to leave the job and do it elsewhere. But getting really clear about who that is and how your purpose has been calling you your whole life to be expressed. And it's a beautiful transformation to see.
Sara Sheehan: [00:20:52] And so in that, in that particular case, that particular client, did she make the choice to step out of the business context?
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:21:03] No, she did not.
Sara Sheehan: [00:21:04] Or did she stay she in the same area but just started to formulate her book?
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:21:12] Yeah, I love that. I love that question. It's very astute. I love that question. She stayed. However, she proposed a new role. There was, she was doing a little side project that really lit her up. You know, it energized her, was a little, that's really where her passion was. But that was only like 25% of the role. She proposed to do 75% in that role and 25% in the other while she's still working on this writing project, which I'm guessing one day will be a book out into the world. Yes.
Sara Sheehan: [00:21:51] That's fascinating.
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:21:52] Yeah, she got clear on really the work that she wanted to do within the company and how she felt she could make a difference.
Sara Sheehan: [00:21:59] And so that's a true example of leadership coaching, leadership and executive and leadership coaching.
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:22:05] Yes.
Sara Sheehan: [00:22:06] That's wonderful. And so do you help people through the process of publishing a book if they want that expertise?
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:22:15] I don't, my company doesn't do that. But I partner with another company that takes that piece on because I have to do what I preach. So I stay in my zone of genius.
Sara Sheehan: [00:22:26] Perfect, perfect. That's wonderful. Those are really powerful, very powerful and wonderful case studies in my opinion. And so I'd love to hear what your big aspirational goals are right now and where you see yourself going in the future.
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:22:48] Yes, I have a goal. Well, it's more of a vision, right? This big aspiration to see so many women, high achieving women, whether they're in official leadership roles or unofficial leadership roles, are experiencing what I just mentioned to you from both lanes, both sides, this confidence, this, you know, their confidence in some areas of their life and work, but other areas because they don't have that purpose or this idea of something missing. I would, I imagine myself leading a movement of millions of women who did not have purpose, who are now living out their purpose and living from who they truly are and spreading their message out into the world. That's my big grand vision.
Sara Sheehan: [00:23:43] That's beautiful. I love it, it's quite luminous.
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:23:46] Yes. Yeah, and imagine thinking about what they could be doing, what they're already doing, and to have so many more women doing that. I mean, just the thought of it just makes me smile.
Sara Sheehan: [00:23:57] That is a beautiful vision. And so that tells me there's something bigger that you see yourself doing to bring that vision to life.
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:24:08] Yes, and I do, I do what I tell others. Stay in the moment. Right? Because a lot of times if we get ahead of ourselves, that's when we talk ourselves off, you know, talk ourselves out of it. I don't know what it, what that vision, how it will come into fruition. However, I do know for now the people who come to me, having conversations with you, on my own podcast, writing my books, speaking, teaching, coaching, that it will reveal itself as time moves on. But for me to continue to do the work and that's what I would say to others, do what you know where you are now, bloom where you're planted.
Sara Sheehan: [00:24:54] That's lovely. I see you taking the things that you're doing now, and it's almost like turning the aperture of a camera lens so that it may open a little bit more and let a little bit more light in, and you might have a new frame on what it's supposed to be.
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:25:20] Yes, I love that.
Sara Sheehan: [00:25:22] Yeah. I think it won't take very long for you to see what that is, and it may just be a shade different from what you're currently doing or adding something in.
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:25:35] I'm excited.
Sara Sheehan: [00:25:35] It'd be fascinating to journal on that for 30 days and see what reveals to you, what you learn.
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:25:45] Yes. Yeah. You know, and I'm a person who likes to reflect, so I will do that.
Sara Sheehan: [00:25:52] Excellent. Is there anything else that you have on your heart that you want to share about what you're working on right now? Concerns that you have, desires in your heart that you'd love to see people reflect on and consider for themselves?
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:26:15] Yes. I'd like to just reiterate in a different way what I've been saying, really, but to kind of tie it up in a bow and put a bow on it. We've gone through some tough times in recent years with the pandemic and all the societal and world situations. And we've gone through a collective trauma, most of us. I'd love to, whoever's listening or the message to get out to say, it is good and right to take some time to think about yourself. It is good and right to do the things you love. To do the things that matter to you, the things you're good at. Because we feel like we don't always have permission to do it. And if that didn't teach us anything, that those years of that crisis and chaos, it's calling us to question what really matters. So I encourage people, take time. Think about it. Because I'm imagining lots of people are thinking about it, but still not ready to take a move. Not only is it okay to do, back to my belief, if it's on your mind like that, you're being called to do it from your best self to be your true self. You may not be the same person you were when you started, whenever you started your career. This is your life calling you forward. Listen to it and follow it.
Sara Sheehan: [00:27:59] That is so heartfelt and absolutely speaks to my soul. And I think it is a wonderful thing for anyone that's lucky enough to listen to this episode, to sit and reflect on and think, is there anything that I'm not currently doing that I feel called to do.? Because when that small voice speaks to you and calls you to write or make music or do something creative, and you keep trying to stuff it down, you're not showing your own light or living out your foundational design.
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:28:49] Yes.
Sara Sheehan: [00:28:50] That is beautiful. I think the world would be a much kinder place if more people were living out their purpose.
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:28:56] I believe so too.
Sara Sheehan: [00:28:58] That is amazing. And so what other things are you working on, Doctor Robin?
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:29:05] Well, that sounds like quite a bit already.
Sara Sheehan: [00:29:09] It is definitely. You have a lot going on. There's no question about that. I'm very impressed with how productive you are, but I figured there's something else in the back of your mind that you're working on.
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:29:23] Yeah. One thing I think, I don't think we talked about my podcast. We kind of mentioned that I do host a podcast. So I do want to just highlight that as an avenue.
Sara Sheehan: [00:29:33] Let's talk about Leadership Purpose with Doctor Robin. And I was so blessed to be part of your podcast, and I personally can't thank you enough for that opportunity.
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:29:49] Well, I'm so grateful to have your voice join us in the podcast. And the podcast stems from my heart's compassion and call for high achieving women, women who are responsible, ambitious, goal-oriented, good at a couple things. People come to them for questions at work, in business, at home, whether it's their area of expertise or not, people tend to come to them or want to, you know, pick their brain for one thing or another. And they're doing all the things. So the podcast is a direct result of my questioning who supports them while they're supporting everyone else? So the podcast is an opportunity for high achieving women to come together and support each other, to be the, they are always the leaders, so where do they get support? And I started the podcast later in my career, living out this thing that I teach of following my passions. Because when I was in high school, I had a secret fantasy that I never told anyone because I didn't think it was possible. I said, you know, I'd really love to be on the radio - because back then there weren't podcasts - but it was always sort of in the back of my, I was like, oh, that would be wonderful to be on the radio. And then when podcasts became a thing, I thought, ah, here's my opportunity to follow a long-held passion.
Sara Sheehan: [00:31:22] That's fantastic, I love it. You know, I've never, I love the extrapolation there because I hadn't even thought about the radio. I really hadn't even thought about it because I've been so focused on the medium in a different way. And so that's, that's really special for me. That's very special.
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:31:47] And I hear your voice and you have a radio voice, now podcast, radio podcast voice, something that I think draws in the attention of the listener.
Sara Sheehan: [00:31:58] That's very touching. Thank you, very - that's a very nice compliment. And you have an amazing voice as well.
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:32:05] Thank you. And I'm drawn to voices. I'm a bit of an audiophile. You know, some people really listen to, you know, music in a certain way. I listen to good speakers and good voices. Speaking voices.
Sara Sheehan: [00:32:18] That's, that's wonderful. And so are there favorite icons that you have from radio or television, from other mediums? Favorite voices?
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:32:34] Not, not particular voices. But here's an interesting tidbit, because if they're good, I like them. Like if they're on the news, if they're on C-Span, even the sports announcers. So this is the tidbit: I love how the sports announcers, especially like in basketball because they're moving so fast, how they can keep up with the movement of ten people and speak the movements at the same time so the listeners and the watchers could have their perspective in real time. And when they do it with a nice, clear, strong voice, this is what I'm listening to like people are listening to music.
Sara Sheehan: [00:33:11] Yeah. I think it takes a lot of training, honestly, for the sportscaster, especially when they've been an athlete first to take on that role, I think it takes a long time to learn. I think it would be very hard. You definitely have to be a student of the game outside of being a player to take that on and do it well.
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:33:38] Yes. And the ability, the thing that I'm so struck by, the ability to communicate what your eyes see out of your mouth in real time, quickly like that, with a nice flow.
Sara Sheehan: [00:33:47] There's definitely individuals that are more talented than others.
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:33:53] Yes, like with everything. Right?
Sara Sheehan: [00:33:55] Exactly.
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:33:57] Like with every craft, there's someone.
Sara Sheehan: [00:33:59] Exactly. And I definitely think that we can all get better at anything that we want to improve on if we work at it every single day.
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:34:10] Absolutely, absolutely.
Sara Sheehan: [00:34:12] Doctor Robin, tell our listeners how they can find you.
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:34:18] I would love for them to listen to my podcast since they like podcasts. And you can find my podcast wherever you listen to audio podcasts. And it is Leadership Purpose with Doctor Robin, Leadership Purpose with Doctor Robin. And if you want a video component we are also on YouTube, so I'd love for you to come on over, listen to the podcast, be encouraged, inspired, and motivated. And if you want to follow me on social media, I'm on LinkedIn primarily at Robin L Owens, PhD. @RobinLOwensPhD. And I'd love to hear from you.
Sara Sheehan: [00:34:59] Perfect. Our listeners will certainly be checking you out, and they can find detailed information in the show notes as well. Excellent. Well, we've had a fascinating discussion today, Doctor Robin. Is there anything else that's on your mind or heart that you want to share?
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:35:18] I want to thank you for doing the work that you're doing. It's important work. It's meaningful. I could see your passion and your commitment for it. So I want to thank you for that and encourage you to keep up the good work.
Sara Sheehan: [00:35:31] Thank you so much.
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:35:33] Perfect.
Sara Sheehan: [00:35:34] Thanks so much.
Dr. Robin Owens: [00:35:35] Thank you.
Sarah Sheehan: [00:35:36] Thank you for listening to episode 12, Harnessing Your Leadership Purpose with Doctor Robin L Owens. There are three big takeaways from today's session for transformational thinking. First, purpose-driven leadership. Learning to integrate your passions, values, and natural abilities to create meaningful impact in your work and service to others. Second, embracing change. Hear how collective experiences such as the pandemic can serve as a catalyst for self-reflection and embracing new opportunities in line with your life's calling. And third, transformative guidance. Discover the resources and support Doctor Owens provides to women who seek to project their true selves more confidently in their professional lives. Thanks so much for tuning in. As always, subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Spotify so you never miss an episode.
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Sara Sheehan’s guest in this episode is marketing mastermind Gresh Harkless. Gresham (Gresh) Harkless Jr. is the founder of Blue 16 Media and CB Nation. He works with business owners as their marketing agency, creating websites, handling SEO, and ensuring they understand what their digital marketing is doing for them. Gresh talks about how he found his purpose and the career he has today.
Gresh explains why he believes in the idea that if you run your race, you can’t lose. Running your own race involves an inward focus on our gifts and talents and Gresh has done a lot of that inward examination as he moved through education and fought to find where his passion and career could intersect. He shares not only his work and study journey with Sara but the moment when he was ten years old that defined the passion that ignites him even now and guides his career.
In this episode, Sara Sheehan learns why Gresh is so passionate about communication and bringing his own “secret sauce” to his work. He explains where he heard the term “content-based networking” and how it’s a powerful tool for collaboration between business owners and entrepreneurs. Gresh’s insight into digital marketing and the unique path he has carved for himself by following his own path makes for a compelling story. He has practical information and, more importantly, inspiration to offer listeners.
About Gresh Harkless:
Gresham “Gresh” W. Harkless Jr. is the founder of Blue16 Media and CBNation. Blue16 Media uses media & technology to change lives. These media properties include Blue16 Marketing - a digital marketing agency providing digital marketing services including web design, website support & SEO services. CBNation consists of media properties (blogs, podcasts and videos) helping the business community succeed. Central to Blue16’s marketing philosophy is that You Are a Media Company and that every organization is in the media business and can strategically leverage marketing tools, platforms, and “ingredients” to reach their goals.
Gresh is a proud graduate of Howard University & Georgetown University. He was selected in 2022 as a 50+ Black Marketer on the Rise in the Influencer & Media Innovators category. He also is a graduate of the 2020 Leadership Center for Excellence Young Professionals Program in 2016, and he was recognized for being 40 Under 40 in Northern Virginia in 2022 and Alexandria in 2020. He has recorded over 1600 podcast episodes of the I AM CEO Podcast and shared the 100+ business lessons he has learned from recording the episodes in the I AM CEO Handbook Volume 3.
Resources discussed in this episode:
I Am CEO Handbook Volume 3—
Contact Sara Sheehan | Sara Sheehan Consulting:
SaraWSheehan.comSara Sheehan on LinkedInMeet with SaraContact Gresham (Gresh) Harkless Jr. | Founder of CEO Blog Nation & Media Consultant at Blue 16 Media:
Website: IAmGresh.comPodcast: I Am CEOLinkedIn__
Transcript
Sara Sheehan: [00:00:05] Hi there, I'm Sara Sheehan and welcome to my podcast Transformational Thinkers with Sara Sheehan. Today I'm talking with my friend and marketing mastermind, Gresh Harkless about his business, working with business owners as their marketing agency, creating websites, handling SEO and maintaining them as well as so very much more. I feel a great need to read his bio because it's so impressive. So here it goes. Gresham (Gresh) W Harkless Jr is the founder of Blue 16 Media and CB Nation. Blue 16 Media uses media and technology to change lives. These media properties include Blue 16 Marketing, a digital marketing agency providing digital marketing services including web design, web support, and SEO services. CB Nation consists of media properties, blogs, podcasts, and videos helping the business community succeed. Central to Blue 16's marketing philosophy is that you are a media company and that every organization is in the media business and can strategically leverage marketing tools, platforms, and the ingredients to reach their goals. Gresh is a proud graduate of Howard University and Georgetown University. He was selected as the 2022 and 2022 as a 50-plus Black marketer on the rise in the Influencer and Media Innovators category. He also is a graduate of the 2020 Leadership Center for Excellence Young Professionals Program in 2016, and he was recognized for being 40 under 40 in Northern Virginia in 2022 and Alexandria in 2020. He has recorded over 1600 podcast episodes of the I Am CEO podcast, and shared the 100 plus business lessons he's learned from recording the episodes in the I Am CEO Handbook Volume Three, which I can attest is full of gems. Gresh, I am so excited to have you here today, and what I find so fascinating about you is that there are so many layers to you and what makes you unique, and I would love to have the opportunity to dive into that a little bit more today. How does that sound?
Gresh Harkless: [00:02:53] Sounds awesome. Sarah, thanks so much for having me on.
Sara Sheehan: [00:02:56] Excellent, Gresh. I love the thought if you run your race, you can't lose. That is so powerful. How would you describe to one of our listeners what running your race is?
Gresh Harkless: [00:03:13] Yeah, I think running your race is probably sometimes one of the most difficult things that people have to do. Because a lot of it is not externally focused, it's actually inwardly focused and it's usually inwardly focused on, you know, who you are, your gifts, your talents, all the things that kind of light you up a lot of times, your experiences and things that you go through. So a lot of what I believe your race is, is you making a decision on, like, what path you're going to run, what things you're going to do. And I say so many times that when you're running your race, we can get so caught up in looking next to us, side, you know, left side, right side and saying, okay, this person's doing that really well, let me try to mimic and do exactly what they're doing. But that's not staying true to like our gifts, our experiences, who we are. And I always say, if you run your own race, you can't lose because no one can be you like you can. And if we have an understanding of who we are and what really lights us up, what really gets us going, what we're really comes naturally and in flow, then that is, I think, some evidence of what our race is.
Sara Sheehan: [00:04:16] That is beautifully said. And so if you were to explain the race that you're on in life, otherwise you might say, the path that you were chosen to run by God, how would you characterize that?
Gresh Harkless: [00:04:38] Yeah, I think so many times I truly believe we all have God given gifts and abilities, and I feel like a lot of times they come up before we're even aware of what they are. So for me, like I, like many other people, was trying to understand, like, you know, what is my gift? What is my thing? Who am I? What is my race? And I came back to a story that happened when I was ten years old. So my dad was in the military, and he went to an entirely different country because he was in the Air Force. So he got reassigned for a year. And at that time, I started what eventually became a family newspaper. And that family newspaper was covering all the things that were going on in our family. I used to sprinkle in some sports and some history and just different things like that. But it was my way to connect with, you know, my dad, to let him know some of the things that were going on in our family, but in kind of entrepreneurial form. I also sold the subscriptions and like to kind of get it all in context, and I might be dating myself by saying we didn't have Zoom, Skype, FaceTime, like all these different tools that we have to instantly connect with people all across the world. So we had AOL Instant Messenger as long as no one called we were okay, but that was usually what and how we communicated with my dad. You know, we'd talk with them on the phone, we would send emails and things like that. But it was really that family newspaper that I think was my thing that gave me a little bit of evidence of like what my race was. Being and thinking about that, you know, as I grew up, I started to to say like, hey, this is kind of a unique story.
Gresh Harkless: [00:06:09] And my mom kept all like two years of those that I was doing. So I had like a digital, well, I eventually had a digital copy of those, but it started to give me an idea of like, okay, you really like writing, you really like creating things. And those were just like some of the things that came up for me consistently. So when I was unsure of like, what exactly I wanted to major in, for example, I started to go back to that story and it started to give me a little bit more of a North Star of like, okay, this is what and who you are, so maybe you should lean more into that. When I'm trying to make sometimes business decisions about what I'm going to do, it was those things that I was kind of filtering through, like ten year old Gresh of like, this is maybe your superpower, and this is something that you should lean more into because it happens naturally. You weren't doing it because people were cheering for you. You did it just because it just naturally came. And I felt like those are kind of like those seeds that made me think that, okay, this is my race. This is, you know, we have fancy words like content creators and things like that we use now, but that was something that I wasn't thinking about then. I was just thinking about, how can I get a newspaper out? Can I cover the squirrel that got into my grandma's house and make it something exciting? So those were like some of the things that kind of planted the seeds for that.
Sara Sheehan: [00:07:21] That is a beautiful story. I love hearing the personal side so very much. Talk with me. You started to share a little bit about early glimpses that help you to understand what your race is. So talk with me a little bit about your time in college and higher education, the degrees that you got from both Howard and Georgetown, and how that plays in to the story around your race.
Gresh Harkless: [00:07:57] Yeah. So I grew up in Northern Virginia, so I didn't go too, too far from home. But I was definitely, you know, homesick, you know, and just adjusting to what that looked like. But I think one of the biggest things that I imagine people go through in college is kind of like that identity and trying to figure out who you are. So compounding upon that, I feel like everything happened so fast. Like before I knew it, I was in college and trying to figure out what I wanted to do and be and grow up into and all those things, and I came in as an undecided major. So I wasn't really sure, like what I wanted to kind of major in, but, you know, I touched on it a little bit, like I started to say, okay, I don't know what I want to do, but I know this is at least a glimpse into who I am. So I toyed with, you know, entrepreneurship as a, I think at Howard we could only do it for a minor, so toyed with that eventually, but I decided to settle and decide on English. And I decided on English largely because of what I talked about, like the family newspaper. But I was also very interested in just like, reading and writing and stories and all those things.
Gresh Harkless: [00:09:04] And that always compelled me and I, at that time, I wasn't bold enough to get a journalism degree. I wanted to do journalism, but I didn't know, like what that industry would be or what that would look like. But I've always felt like I've had like that journalism kind of mindset. But I decided to do English because I felt like that was a little bit more of a skill, a Swiss Army knife. And so that's what I ended up majoring in. But funny story and funny only now, it wasn't funny then, is that I remember my freshman English professor completely destroyed my English papers and I remember it being a lot more, I said, I always joke now, I said, it looked a lot more like a crime scene than anything else. And I remember talking with her, it's like, okay, well, you know, I love, I like doing this, so like, what am I doing wrong? And she said, basically, like, no one kind of taught you the rules. So I actually spent a lot of time, like, really studying myself to some degree. Like a lot of the rules of English, like the power of commas and semicolons and all those things, because I wanted to get better at something that I felt like was part of who I was. But I didn't know, like all the rules or no one really kind of taught me those rules and things like that.
Gresh Harkless: [00:10:15] So anyways, I ended up becoming an English major, and that kind of fueled me, you know, had a really great experience at Howard. And I felt like I really was able to find that identity. I was able to be myself and understand who I was. I did everything from pledging to joining a fraternity, to being on student government, things I was adamant about not doing, I said I wouldn't do, I ended up doing, and that was just part of that experience. But I think throughout those four years, it really put me in a place where, because I had done things that I didn't think I wanted to do, it gave me more of a sense of who I was. It gave me more of a sense of my identity. As much as we try to find who we are, sometimes I feel like when we're not who we are, that's when we start to realize and appreciate who we are. So some of those experiences just put me in a place where I was like, okay, this is Gresh, I'm learning more about who I am. And so I applied to a bunch of law schools because I thought I wanted to go to law school at the time, got a ton of rejections.
Gresh Harkless: [00:11:16] I said that I would only go to law school if I got a full ride to go to law school. I got a partial, got a lot of rejections, I got into one school, I think I got a waitlist, and then I got a partial scholarship to one school. I think the University of Miami, I believe. But I decided not to go. I said, I don't really know why I want to go to law school very similarly to how I entered undergrad. And I said, well, I might want to do something around sports because I'll always love sports. So let me pursue this degree that I heard about called a sports management degree. And so I got my Master's in sports management from Georgetown. And during that time, I realized that that's not really what I wanted to do, but I also took a lot of business classes, and that's where those entrepreneurship plans were stoked even more. And I always say it's like business school for jocks. So I went into that and that's where I kind of emerged. And, you know, after that it was a rocky road. But I felt like I had a lot more identity into who I am. And I felt like a lot of those answers came from me kind of using that filter. Long-winded answer, but hopefully that that tells you that.
Sara Sheehan: [00:12:17] It's a great answer because it's your answer. It's the right one. Absolutely. It's very interesting to me that you did sports management, though, at the Master's level and the points that you delve into there about entrepreneurial and business classes. And so you've absolutely applied that in what you're doing. Clearly. Very interesting. How would you share what you're passionate about? What really lights your fire?
Gresh Harkless: [00:12:52] Yeah, I think it's ultimately the stories. And when I started to really, I always say like I started to do, years later, I started to do like freelance writing. So I wrote around a bunch of different topics. I wrote everything from reviews at restaurants to, you know, I went to school events and I would talk about an author that came to talk to the kid, just everything. I literally wrote about all those things. But I always say, like, I felt at home when I was interviewing entrepreneurs and business owners. So it was me kind of on that quest to kind of understand what that is, what that looks like, but also learn what were good kind of traits or characteristics or things that entrepreneurs or successful business owners would adopt. And I really became, for lack of a better term, obsessed with that. And that's where that kind of lit me up. So it wasn't, I always thought I was going to potentially be a sports agent or a sports writer or something along those lines, but I started to see kind of like those, I guess, those seeds planted, and I started to meld it into my own race where it was like, okay, like I'm interested in stories and and I'm interested in business and entrepreneurship.
Gresh Harkless: [00:14:03] Like I had to choose one or the other. That was my mindset initially. But it was like as you start to get older and you start to realize, like, especially around journalism, there's so much disruption. Things are a lot different with, you know, technology and all those things. I started to realize like, hey, maybe you can kind of create your own recipe. And to change, like how you're approaching even your life, your profession and the things that light you up. So that's a lot of where that came about is just like, okay, I don't have to choose either/or, I could actually choose both, it may be better and start to try to look at things differently and execute in a unique way. And that's kind of like how I stepped into that. And that's what ended up becoming my passion is like staying true to my race, but at the same time being obsessed with like the stories, with learning, with asking questions, just all those things that journalists would do, but bring it into that business world and kind of do it in a unique way. So I think that's what lights me up more than anything else is that and the innovation and things like that.
Sara Sheehan: [00:15:03] Fascinating. I definitely see that you're doing it. You're bringing your passion to life in your work and what you do without question. You're definitely using those skills.
Gresh Harkless: [00:15:17] Thank you.
Sara Sheehan: [00:15:18] Absolutely. Talk with me, Gresh, about what your secret sauce is and why it's so important.
Gresh Harkless: [00:15:25] Yeah, it's so funny, I think a lot of my secret sauce comes from, you know, that ten year old Gresh. And a lot of what I think is embedded, I guess, within, you know, Blue 16 and CB Nation is, I like to call it a media company mindset. And it's the same idea of like being maybe a content creator, but I'm really big into like leveraging. And I feel like using content for what I believe is like the greater good to help support the people that you're serving. And I think that so many times we look at content as something you have to check off or something you have to do, but I really think it has a very impactful opportunity if, you know, if it's used in that way. And so when I look at my secret sauce, I think a lot of it has to be not choosing either/or, but actually both of them, and figuring out how can I create content, but how can I also serve the audience that I'm, you know, wanting to serve? How can I also potentially drive home more opportunities for digital marketing, or how can I even create new products or services? So I try to really not think either/or, have really abundant mindset to everything that I'm doing and meld those things together into what I think is a secret sauce and a new recipe. So it's not choosing either/or. It's really saying, okay, this is content I can create. What are my goals? Like, what am I trying to create, do with this content and working backwards from there. Do I want to meet more people? Like, one of the things I did with the podcast is I said, okay, I'm in a lot of boards, I'm in a lot of networking groups, I'm just overextended and I'm tired. Why don't I try to take my podcast and create it as a way for me to network and connect with people? And so it just, starting to like look at things from like that media company mindset and seeing like how you can create win, win, win opportunities and maybe be able to do something completely different.
Sara Sheehan: [00:17:17] Absolutely. Having a podcast in and of itself is such a great content vehicle because just like we're doing here today, you gave me the opportunity on your I Am CEO podcast. And here we are today and I asked you if you would be a guest on mine. I think it is such a powerful opportunity to give someone an opportunity to reach an entirely new group of listeners.
Gresh Harkless: [00:17:51] Absolutely. And I think too, like one of the guests I had, he had this phrase called content based networking. And I think it's one of the most powerful things because I think in this day and age, we all have microphones. That's one of the beauties of the phone, is that now we get to collaborate in different ways. So why not be able to have that opportunity to build connections, relationships in a different way? We don't have to pass each other business cards. We can hop on each other's podcasts and we have that opportunity to collaborate.
Sara Sheehan: [00:18:17] Absolutely. And so, Gresh, talk with me a little bit about Blue 16 media and CB Nation in terms of how they fit in.
Gresh Harkless: [00:18:27] Yeah, so I think that, kind of like what I alluded to, is every time I'm like, okay, what is my next step? What should I do? I'm really big into to trying to figure out, like, how can I take from what I feel like are my superpowers, but also things that I want to do to try to impact. So I had CB Nation, which was started before the digital marketing company, and CB Nation was literally started out with me really interviewing people the, I didn't even know podcast at the time, it was just me using and creating blog content, interviewing business owners and posting it. What really changed things was I tore my Achilles tendon while I was playing basketball, and when I tore my Achilles tendon, I was, I went through like a dark period because I was like, not really happy because I did, I felt like I made bold moves and they didn't work out. And I was literally without a, well, partially without all my Achilles. So it was a partial tear. But that's what kind of planted the seeds for CEO Blog Nation, which became CB Nation and all those. So I was already working on that, you know, learning about entrepreneurship and business, saying, I want to start something.
Gresh Harkless: [00:19:36] And on the other side, I started to, I've always been like a techie. I've always been interested in technology and computers and things like that. So I would work on websites not thinking that was of any value. It was only years later, after having a job while freelancing and doing all these other things, that I met somebody from a networking group, and my way to kind of get through to him was actually to say, hey, you know, your website's not up to par. And I was working an outside sales job at the time, and I was like, okay, well, I want to try to sell you advertising. So I'm going to talk about your website to hopefully sell you advertising. And when that happened, I got into the door and spoke with him. He didn't want to talk about advertising. He wanted to talk about the SEO work. So that's where I started to do more SEO work. So all while I'm still doing a lot of the freelance writing and all these things, and I started doing digital marketing, the digital marketing starts to kind of take off a lot more than other things. So fast forward a lot of years. I'm like, okay, I'm overextended. I'm doing too many things. I have a lot of, you know, I'm way overextended, way more overextended that I want to be in two things that I'm chasing.
Gresh Harkless: [00:20:46] And I kind of came back to it like, okay, if I was going to blow up my digital marketing company, how would I do that? And a lot of that was like, okay, I would probably try to invest into something that can connect me with more entrepreneurs and business owners. I'd probably try to get an entrepreneur magazine or something along those lines. And then when I started to think about it, I was like, okay, I'm building something that is probably very close to what I would want to invest in, and that's where those two things kind of meld together. It's like, okay, you have the services that you provide, but you really want to showcase people that you might end up working with. At the very least, you get the opportunity to kind of provide support for the community. So that's where those two things kind of came together, where it wasn't either/or, it was actually both and better. And it allowed me and everybody else to be a lot more strategic with what we're doing.
Sara Sheehan: [00:21:37] That's fascinating to learn more about. And so can you tell me if Blue 16 and CB Nation, are they passion projects for you or..? How do they fit in with your secret sauce? Or maybe they are your secret sauce in essence. Tell me more about that.
Gresh Harkless: [00:22:02] So I absolutely believe it is part of my secret sauce. I think it's the differentiator. So the secret sauce, the thing that sets us apart, it makes us unique, because I think so many times with digital marketers, which has become a lot more prevalent than it was when I started, you know, ten years ago, it becomes less of like, oh, I can just help you build a website. It becomes more of like, oh, you're doing some really awesome things with love. You know, by the way, we do help support with X, Y and Z and A, B and C, but I would love to have you on my podcast. I think you have a phenomenal story. I think you're doing phenomenal things, so we'd love to showcase you. And I think it's a way to also help to build those connections and those relationships, but also to get our name out there. So everything's powered by Blue 16, and that's by design as well too. So that again, investments into like other streams of marketing and other ways the market may not be able, be in alignment with what we're trying to build. So it's definitely in alignment with, you know, our secret sauce. And I see it as basically like a marketing opportunity. But I think one of the beautiful things is we're hoping to launch more and more type of products and services to help support CB Nation as well too, so that we have the services but we also have other opportunities and things that we can build from there.
Sara Sheehan: [00:23:16] Excellent. Is it fair to say that you are providing content through CB Nation that is educational for anyone that really wants to learn and grow? They want to grow as a business leader. They want to be a better leader. They want people to want to work with them. That you have a much higher standard for what you're doing. You're trying to share content that would help people learn and grow.
Gresh Harkless: [00:23:55] Absolutely. Sara. It's so funny. I say, like, at the heart of, like, every interview or every piece of content, I'm always that annoying kid that's in class that continues to raise their hand and ask about why, how do you do this, and all those things. So I feel like I'm tapping into that with everything that we create and like our, I call it our success equation, I say visibility plus resources times connections equals success. And the whole idea of that is that every piece of content we want to hit one of those three pieces, if not more than one. So we're either telling a story about a CEO, entrepreneur and business owner. And I think even in that it could be very lonely starting a business. It could be very lonely if you're innovating or doing anything. I think you have a lot of peace. And this is why I kind of touched on that networking group, because I only believe I was more able to achieve more success because I was in the room with people that were already doing it. And like things have changed, obviously with some of the ways that we connect. But I think I wanted to tap into that, oh, if I'm having a bad day or a bad month or even a bad year of my business, I'm not necessarily doing it wrong. It's kind of part of the process, part of the step. So I wanted to kind of get a lot of that information out there. Of course, the resources, you know, we don't know about all the organizations or the software or the tools, tips, tidbits, whatever it is, I call them CEO hacks that we can lean on. So let's start to get a lot of that information out there. And then connections is everything that's at the humanistic part of what we're doing, I think. I love the opportunity we get to do this now, but how can I bring all those things together so that I can help these business owners, who I think are the true superheroes, be able to succeed even more?
Sara Sheehan: [00:25:41] That's very powerful. Can you talk with me about what some of your big aspirational goals are right now and what you're working on?
Gresh Harkless: [00:25:54] Yeah, I think the most immediate thing that we're really trying to work on is after hitting 1600 episodes, I took a step back and I paused new recordings for a year and really started to work on, like, mining the information of all the podcasts and information. And we came out with, you know, 16 kind of foundational elements. And some of them, or most of them, are covered in the I Am CEO Handbook Volume Three, and some of those things are valuable. But one of the things I think that is really impactful is what I call the CEO hacks. And those are the apps, books, habits, software, things that can make you more effective and efficient. So we're doing some really cool things around them. Starting to compile a lot of the CEO hacks that are available, but also drilling down. I think it's really cool to know about these software, but I think one of the things that a lot of SaaS companies kind of struggle with is starting to bridge the gap of like how you can actually execute that within your organization. So we're hoping to kind of bridge the gap as far as like making it more of a directory, potentially tapping in certain like AI chats for people to be able to find the specific hack that can help them with their business, but different things like that to be able to make it easier at the end of the day for people to find the things that they need in order to succeed.
Gresh Harkless: [00:27:10] And I think that's really exciting because I think all these hacks, there's so many things out there that people don't even know about, and we want to try to bridge that gap and make it a little bit easier for people to be able to not just know about them, but also be able to use and execute them, to be able to have a higher level of degree of success. But I think everything goes back to ten year old Gresh for me overall. It's like, how can I start to really approach that in terms of creating media to help to create a solution? As a kid, my idea was like, how can I reach out to my dad? How can I generate a little revenue and money? That was my problem. That was the solution. So the same way that I look at that, I look at a lot of things that are happening in the world. So I definitely see us launching more media properties around specific niche communities. That's definitely, you know, aspirational. But a lot of what we're trying to do is in align with that media company mindset.
Sara Sheehan: [00:28:05] Outstanding. And so one thing I want to make sure that I do with you is give you an opportunity to share about a couple of client success stories, if you will, where you share the client, you don't have to say the whole name. You could give one part of it or characterize it however you'd like, where you share what their biggest problem was at the time, the solution that you helped them with and what their results were in the end.
Gresh Harkless: [00:28:38] Yeah, absolutely. I think one of my favorite clients, usually, especially from a digital marketing standpoint, some of our best clients are, I say, people that know enough to be dangerous. Those people that know enough to be dangerous and those organizations are often people that have had a less than ideal experience with digital marketers in the past. If you can't tell, I do like to talk a little bit, and I do like to make sure that I over-explain a lot of the things that are happening, I think to the detriment of a lot of clients, as people don't have as much communication about what's happening, and even not just communicating just to say like certain, they say legalese in business and law. So I don't know if it's marketese or whatever words that people don't understand. So what I really try to do is try to communicate, and we try to communicate to people to let them know what's happening. So one of my absolute favorite clients is a plumbing company out of Ohio, and she did not have a great experience with SEO. Really, honestly, her SEO rankings were tanking and a lot of them were tanking because in SEO, there's something that's called duplicate content. What people sometimes try to do is they will take a page on their site, and if they're trying to show up locally and in certain cities and states and zip codes and things like that, they'll literally just take that content, copy it over to another page, they'll change the city, the city and the state and that's it.
Gresh Harkless: [00:30:01] So all the content is pretty much the same across the site. So this person actually employed a SEO that was not really doing what's in their best interest. And it's really detrimental because not only does it rank, does it tank their pages, it can take all their entire site. So that was something that we were able to kind of step in and do, really just change those things around to create unique content across the site. But I think also to just optimize it to increase the page speed on the site, to do all those things to help the site to rank higher. And I think that I really get saddened because a lot of business owners and CEOs and entrepreneurs don't really realize that when they're not aware of what's happening on their site, or they're not aware of what's happening in their business, even asking those questions or they don't understand sometimes what's happening, it goes a long way towards like continuing to ask questions, continue to say, I don't understand this, can you explain this to me like I'm a five year old? That's okay, because there's unfortunately a lot of people that do take advantage of CEOs, entrepreneurs and business owners.
Gresh Harkless: [00:31:11] And right in line with what I talk about with CB Nation, it's all about like helping these business owners to succeed. And we try to do that in the best way possible. But that's just, you know, one example that I had, we had a sports, a nationwide, they were actually global, they did stuff in other countries, but they were a soccer company and they also had a bad experience. Another one of those I know enough to be dangerous. I know something's not right, but I don't know exactly what it is. But this was in relation to like building the website. They didn't have access to updating websites. They didn't have access to any of the aspects of the site. So what we really try to do is transition them over to something that, to WordPress, which is more of a content management system, that we could not only support them, but they can also do the updates themselves. We can be on call if they need something. We don't necessarily have to do everything. And just those things are huge because you own your business. Why not be able to own certain updates to your website? And if you need help, just be able to call people. So those are some of my favorite clients just because it's like a bad relationship or sometimes a bad ex where you're like, I don't want to date anymore. I don't want to deal with any other marketers. I don't want to talk to anybody. I don't want to do anything. And those end up coming from like referrals because they're really strong relationships and connections that we've been able to build. But those really are people that can and still are clients for years and years and years, largely because we take a step forward. We really try to have those communication and we try to make sure that we are helping to support them to succeed in the way that they want to succeed.
Sara Sheehan: [00:32:42] Fantastic. Those are two great, great stories, and they show that how your expertise helped them to uncover a root cause that you are able to fix. And resolve the problem for them. So that's huge. Is there anything else, Gresh, that's on your mind that you would like to share about you, your business? What's coming up for the year?
Gresh Harkless: [00:33:14] You know, I think one of my favorite quotes that I always kind of come back to, and this was right in line with running your own race, is don't tell me that the sky is the limit when there's footprints on the moon. And the reason that I bring that up is because especially depending on where you are in the journey of business, entrepreneurship, life at that, there can be a lot of people that aren't necessarily cheering you on. And I had to experience that to some degree, especially when I started my business and said, this is what I want to do. This is my race. This is the essence of who I am. I did get pushback from that, and I just want to bring that up, because a lot of times when you're starting something new, you're trying to innovate, whether you're trying to get a new job or you're trying to start a new hobby, or you're learning to do something completely new for the first time, or you're trying to level up, whatever that is, I love this quote because I think there's so many times that we think that something is not possible, and that stops us in our tracks from ever trying.
Gresh Harkless: [00:34:15] So I would just encourage anybody to, there was once a time where, you know, we weren't going to reach the moon. There was once a time that we weren't going to be able to fly and the Wright brothers were able to make that. There's all these instances in history where people say that that's not possible, that's not going to happen. But I just would encourage everybody to make sure that you do take it upon yourself to say, I'm going to try and I'm going to try to make that happen. I'm going to try to do whatever it is I'm achieving, because there's a lot more naysayers than sometimes there are cheerleaders. But I think if you continue to drive home and do the things that you're hoping to do, some of those naysayers become cheerleaders. And that's when it becomes really awesome. But even if it doesn't, you know there's no worse regret than not trying. So try those things, do those things, and don't let the naysayers stop you in your tracks.
Sara Sheehan: [00:35:02] That is absolutely beautiful and so very touching to hear and to end on. And so with that, I would love to give you a chance to share how our listeners can find you. What's the best way for them to reach out to you? Is there an email or a Calendly link?
Gresh Harkless: [00:35:23] Yeah, absolutely. Probably to make it easier for everybody, I have kind of a landing page called I am Gresh dot com - that's IAmGresh.com - that has links to set up a time to schedule with me, has links to the podcast, digital marketing, the e-book as well too, lots and lots of things that are there and make it super easy. But obviously I'm in the web design business, so I have a lot of different sites, but that is kind of the easiest way for you to find me and things that we're working on.
Sara Sheehan: [00:35:53] Super fantastic. I can't thank you enough for giving me some time today, Gresh, and I can't wait to share our podcast with our listeners.
Gresh Harkless: [00:36:05] I appreciate you. Thank you for the opportunity.
Sara Sheehan: [00:36:06] Excellent. Thank you so much for listening to Episode Eleven, Running Your Own Race with Gresh Harkless. Here are the three takeaways from today's session. Embrace your uniqueness. Learn from Gresh's philosophy of running your own race, focusing on innate gifts, and carving your path in business and life. Two) Content as a bridge. Discover the strategic importance of content-based networking and how it can revolutionize your connections and collaborations. Three) Leverage your secret sauce. Gain insights into developing products and services that complement your brand's essence. Just as Gresh did with his blend of storytelling and business acumen. Thanks so much for tuning in today. I'm really thrilled to be able to share this wonderful conversation with you. As always, please subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Spotify so you never miss an episode.
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Sara Sheehan welcomes her friend and mentor Doug C. Brown to the show to talk about successful sales strategies. Doug C. Brown is the CEO of CEO Sales Strategies and is a Sales Revenue and Profit Growth Expert. Doug’s educational and working background is an impressive mix of varied skills, but he always knew he wanted to focus his energies on helping people achieve their best in sales.
Doug walks us through his storied career journey from serving in the United States Army to studying nuclear medicine to selling equipment to some of the top musical acts of the day, including Aerosmith, The Eagles, Boston, and Billy Joel. He learned to play a variety of instruments but he also recognized that confidence, not just skill, was what set those famous musicians apart. All of this culminated in a stunningly successful career in sales that led to working with Chet Holmes, Tony Robbins, and many other top-tier companies.
In this episode, Sara Sheehan learns how Doug shaped the strategies that he employs to raise sales revenue in the teams he works with. Doug breaks down exactly how he increased the revenue for Chet Holmes and Tony Robbins, by looking at the product sets, the revenue, and the lead base, and then segmenting offerings to directly appeal to each bracket of business the companies worked with. Doug’s incredible methods, innate instinct for sales, and personable follow-up approach have led not only to his own success but the success of so many other individuals and companies. Tune in to hear his invaluable advice.
About Doug C. Brown:
Doug C. Brown is the CEO of CEO Sales Strategies and a Sales Revenue and Profit Growth Expert. He is the founder of Vibitno and creator of the Top 1% Academy, where he trains on how to sell to buyers, whether they be CEOs, business owners, or entrepreneurs, and how to be in the top 1% of sales earners doing so. Doug also served as an independent President of Sales and Training for Tony Robbins, Chet Holmes, and Russ Whitney, where he raised the close rate of the sales presenter teams by 157%, as well as increased sales for one product line by 4150% in his first six months of taking over.
He believes that most people have the personal power and potential to be at the top 1% of earners, but lack the tools and knowledge of how to achieve this.
Resources discussed in this episode:
“The Ultimate Sales Machine: Turbocharge Your Business with Relentless Focus on 12 Key Strategies” by Chet Holmes—
Contact Sara Sheehan | Sara Sheehan Consulting:
SaraWSheehan.comSara Sheehan on LinkedInMeet with SaraContact Doug C. Brown | Sales Revenue and Profit Growth Expert:
Website: CEOSalesStrategies.comVibitno: Vibitno.comLinkedInEmailDownload Doug’s free e-book “The Art and Science of Being a Nonstop 1% Earner in Sales”“Win-Win Selling: Unlocking Your Power for Profitability by Resolving Objections” By Doug Brown__
Transcript
Sara Sheehan: [00:00:03] Hi there, my name is Sara Sheehan and welcome to my podcast, Transformational Thinkers with Sara Sheehan. Today I'm talking with my friend and admired mentor Doug Brown about his business working with executives and business leaders on increasing their sales skills and improving their ability to close business. Doug helps salespeople and sales teams, and can even provide sales talent to companies looking for commission-only sellers. If you would like to learn more after listening to today's discussion, check out the show notes or a link to book a meeting with me or Doug. Doug, you have an absolutely fascinating backstory, at least to me you do. Because there are some common threads in your life that are still present in your business today. You grew up with an understanding of the value of hard work, having a fire deep inside to achieve more and do more and truly impact the outcome of your life. You've always pushed yourself to do and achieve more. You also served our country in the US military. What branch of the military were you in?
Doug Brown: [00:01:28] I was in the United States Army.
Sara Sheehan: [00:01:30] Excellent. And so where did your service take you and what were your experiences there?
Doug Brown: [00:01:34] Well, it first took me to Oklahoma. That's where I was, that's where I went to basic training. Originally I was going to go into the medical field or I wanted to learn languages and I scored extremely high on what they call the ASVAB test, which, you know, I could pick anything I wanted. And so I picked a medical specialty. And then as I was just about to go to, you know, get set up to go to basic training, one of the long serving master sergeants that were there, he said, you know, you should go into this combat arms field. You could go into the artillery. And he said, you qualify as a fire direction controller. And I'm like, what's that? And he said, well, you plot all this data and do all these mathematical computations to make sure that you coordinate all the, you know, like air fire, land fire, all that cannon and missiles and all that stuff. And I'm like, well, it sounds kind of interesting. He's like, you'll make rank way faster, and, Sara, there's a bonus. And so, you know, at 19 years old, when you hear, you know, there's a I think it was $5,000 bonus at that time, it was like, well, okay, I'll do that. Right? And so.
Sara Sheehan: [00:02:45] Right.
Doug Brown: [00:02:46] So I did. So that's what took me to Oklahoma because that was in Fort Sill. And eventually I came back to the medical field in the military. But the, that's how it took me there, it took me a lot through the United States. And then, you know, I was part of the Gulf War era as well. And so, yeah, I spent 12 years and 7 days, actually, in the military.
Sara Sheehan: [00:03:10] That's a good amount of service. That is to be applauded, honestly.
Doug Brown: [00:03:15] Well thank you, I appreciate that. Yeah. It was a lot of, I had a lot of fun and a lot of good times too, you know. So, and I learned quite a bit. Some of the things I even carry through, you know, with me today about the, you know, the discipline side of it. And you learn a lot about people because in the military you meet all kinds of people from all different walks of life, from anybody from, you know, super high education to people who didn't even finish school. And, you know, because they had to either support their families or they were in a place where, you know, they, it was the military or prison, you know, that type of thing as well. So it was a really great experience for me. I wasn't prepared for it originally, but it definitely worked out. And, you know, it's served me all the way through my life at this point.
Sara Sheehan: [00:04:10] Excellent. I love the point that you made on discipline, because we can't forget that creating and laying down those habits, those habits are things that will serve you the rest of your life, no doubt about it. And so I understand that music was a really important part of your life, growing up years all the way through to adulthood. And I'm aware that you sold music equipment to some of the world's leading bands. Tell me about that.
Doug Brown: [00:04:44] Yeah, well, music is, music was always something that inspired me ever since I was just a young child, I remember. And my brothers used to listen to, they're a lot older than I am, I'm the youngest out of four, and, you know, my brother, my oldest brother is nine years older, so, I mean, he was listening to Aerosmith while I was still listening to, I don't know, Mister Rogers on television or whatever. Right? So, but I always remember hearing the music and in particular, complex musical arrangements were always really interesting to me as a child. And so I grew up in an environment in some capacity where good was never good enough. So it's like, you know, if you were really good in music, you weren't good enough to make it in music, that type of thing. And so for a lot of years I doubted myself, even though I played in a lot of bands. And then eventually, while I was going to college, I landed a job selling music equipment. And I then ended up working with, you know, Aerosmith and the Eagles and Billy Joel and Paul McCartney and the Wings and, you know, all the, you know, Extreme, all of the, a lot of the big bands of that, Boston, I was very close with some of those guys from the band. You know, a lot of those bands that people listen to even today on the radio, I got a chance to work with. And what happened was Barry from Boston, Goudreau, from Boston, one day said to me, man, you're really good as a musician. You should go to music school. And I was like, oh, well, thanks, Barry, you know? But like, so I decided, you know what? He's probably right. Let me give it a shot. So I said, well, I'll apply to some of the best schools out there. So the first one I applied to was Berklee College of Music in Boston, did my audition, they took me right away. I ended up going there.
Sara Sheehan: [00:06:38] That's amazing.
Doug Brown: [00:06:39] Yeah, yeah. Well, it goes back to, you know, what I teach people a lot now is part of the winning process in selling is confidence. You know, confidence is sexy, so to speak. Right? And I worked with so many famous musicians and some of them frankly, weren't even that great as a musician. But what they had was confidence, when I look back on it, right. They had, they were good, don't get me wrong. But they weren't, you know, they weren't somebody you're going to see at the Met. You know what I mean? Like. So they, and I grew up, my grandmother was more of a classical pianist, so I grew up kind of in that environment as well. But what I realized was that most of them had the ability to say, you know what, I'm going to see this through and I'm confident I can do it.
Sara Sheehan: [00:07:30] Mhm. Absolutely.
Doug Brown: [00:07:31] They just they just stuck with it for a long time, you know. And there's certainly like bands like Kansas, you know, and I was, I worked with the drummer for Lou Reed. And he was in this band called Stories a long time ago. They had a song called 'Louie Louie Louie, Louie', you know, and, uh, super nice guy, but just all very confident, right? They were confident people. So that's the thing I learned from that process, and I wanted to be a professional musician. But then what happened was these guys and gals were telling me about their tour schedule and being on a bus for 300 days in a row, and I was like, you know what, I want a family and I want to be around for the kids and all of that stuff. So I decided not to do that. I became a professional DJ. I was one of the very strong, I would say, probably top ten DJs in the Boston area, you know, for a while. And then my kids started growing up and I was like, you know, I don't want to be out all night, all day, you know, because I was working six jobs a week, holding down a full-time position, you know, on top of because I was selling during that period of time as well.
Sara Sheehan: [00:08:38] So that's a ton. And so just a couple follow-up questions. What kind of equipment were you selling?
Doug Brown: [00:08:43] So I was mostly I was selling, I was selling everything, but keyboards were my primary. So you know, anything from pianos to synthesizers to, you know, you name it, anything that had a key. I sold guitars, I sold bass guitars, I sold drums, woodwinds, brass instruments... I, you know, I learned them all.
Sara Sheehan: [00:09:05] That's impressive.
Doug Brown: [00:09:06] Yeah. And what was really cool is I got a chance to start, you know, practicing other instruments as well. So I learned how to play saxophone and flute, which were never going to be something that I was, I'm terrible as a flutist, but, you know, I played guitar. And so it served me in the bands because I was a vocalist who played keyboards, and that was good enough. But then I could play bass, I could play other instruments. So that allowed me, you know, some other opportunities that I didn't have if I didn't play those.
Sara Sheehan: [00:09:35] The reason I wanted to ask about this time in your life is I really wanted to highlight the fact that you clearly demonstrated your desire to do and achieve more by the behaviors that you were even practicing then, at selling. And I just wanted to make sure that I brought that up.
Doug Brown: [00:10:00] Yeah. And I think that's a really key component to being successful in anything is having the confidence level to say, you know, I'm going to do this in spite of if I don't feel confident at it and staying with it. And some of the best advice one of my mentors told me was, he said, you know, it's always going to take you longer to get to where you want to most of the time, and it's usually going to cost you 2 to 3 times more than you figure. But you'll always get your goal if you just keep your nose pointed in the direction you want to go and keep walking. And you know I think that's playing the long game. Right? And so that I think is, especially in selling, too many people try to play the short game. But the long game gives you leverage in the process. And I think you get leverage because even in age we get wisdom as we grow older, we go, oh, okay, yeah, I'm not going to do that again. You know, or when some younger person is going to do something, it's like, hey, did you think about it this way? Because you know what's likely to happen. But that comes through repetition, practice, seeing it through. And, you know, it's not always straight up, you know, I learned that working with the bands, I mean, these bands that we know today still, you know, they're out there touring. I mean, Aerosmith's out there still touring, right?
Sara Sheehan: [00:11:20] Absolutely. Yes. Paul McCartney is still making music. That's amazing.
Doug Brown: [00:11:25] And he probably will for forever. And you know, they didn't always have times that were what other people would consider fun, you know, nor did they. I mean, I remember even like older musicians like Sammy Davis Jr, when he was playing with the Rat Pack of Frank Sinatra and those guys, you know, he was saying publicly that sometimes he went in and played in Vegas and the casinos didn't want to pay him. And, you know, things like that. So it's like, it's a business. And that's what people forget about the music business, right? And so, yeah, like anything, you got to see it through and, you know, have that desire to keep going in spite of. I mean, Arnold Schwarzenegger didn't become the greatest bodybuilder in the world by, you know, getting up every day and going, I don't think I'll go to the gym today, you know, even when I don't want to. And he's admitted he had days like that, but he goes to the gym anyways.
Sara Sheehan: [00:12:21] That's the kind of habit that definitely changes the world, a habit that you do and you continue to practice and hone. And so I wanted to ask if you would share with me and our listeners a little bit about the multiple degrees that you have achieved.
Doug Brown: [00:12:45] Educationally? You mean formal education?
Sara Sheehan: [00:12:46] Yes. And I mean, you have consistently shown that you go above and beyond in everything that you do. And so I understand that you have at least three degrees.
Doug Brown: [00:13:01] Yes, I actually have five, five degrees. Yeah, I do.
Sara Sheehan: [00:13:07] Tell me about your higher education achievements.
Doug Brown: [00:13:12] Well, part of, you know, so sometimes going above and beyond can be... Our greatest strength sometimes can be our Kryptonite, right? It could be our greatest weakness. And I got all these degrees because I really didn't, I knew what I wanted to do, but I didn't have that confidence to go forth and say, this is what I want to do, because it was one of those things that when I grew up in that environment, it was like, no, you have to be, you know, you have to have a job. You got to, you know, selling, my gosh, that's a soft skill. You know, it's like, that type of thing. So I mean, even universities looked at it that way. When I was looking for sales, you know, universities for selling, they were like, no, we don't do that. That's not a real degree. Right? So, you know, I got degrees in biology, nuclear medicine, business, finance, general studies, music, things like that. And, but I just didn't really know what I want. I couldn't put my finger on the this is what I want to do. Even though I knew internally that I would like to do this. Like my driver in life is to see other people's faces light up and have a good time and grow and give them and instill, you know, the ability to to do more than they think they could ever do.
Doug Brown: [00:14:29] And that came up partially from my childhood of not having that and battling through and overcoming that myself. But it was always something, like when I was a, you know, younger person - I'm 61 now, right - so when I was a younger person, I could always remember me thinking like this. It's like, you know, I'm almost like an empath in some way where somebody's, you know, having a hard time. I want to help them out of that. And so that's what I wanted to do, and I wanted to get paid for that. And I knew that. But I just didn't know how because I was in an educational system that frankly, wasn't really allowing or I couldn't see that ability to do so, you know, because it's like, okay, well, if you go get a degree in finance, you got to work for a bank or you got to work for an insurance, you know, or whatever. If you get a degree in business, you want to go into business administration because you got to have your MBA. Because if you don't have your MBA back, then you know, that was nothing. You know all these rules, right? Which are quite frankly, um, not true.
Sara Sheehan: [00:15:29] That's right. And so, Doug, how do you think, how did you come to understand that the sales world was where you needed to be? How did you figure that out?
Doug Brown: [00:15:42] So I have, you know, sometimes necessity is the mother of all invention, as they say. So what happened was I got out of the military, I had a college education, you know, some then, but I was like, you know what? I'm going to go get a real job. And I wasn't out of the military yet. And I'm like, you know, I'm going to be a doctor. That's a real job, right? It's a respected job. So I applied to medical school, I got accepted, and while I was in medical school, the Gulf War came up. And so they were like, you have a critical skill, we need you for this, so guess what, you can't go to medical school right now. And in the meantime, I went through a divorce. So, you know, when I got, when the Gulf thing ended, so did my marriage, basically. So it was like I lost all my money that I had saved to go to medical school, but I was determined, so I kept reapplying. I got re-accepted, and then I got accepted into the nuclear medicine program at the university I was in. I could start that before waiting for another year of college. So I was like, okay, I'll finish this because I can finish it in a year because I had so many credits and I went through that and I got into the hospital setting, but now I'm $20,000 in debt from taking loans for college. And, you know, this was way back, back, back, back, you know, in the late 80s at that point. And so I was like, jeez, I can't find a job in the hospital because what happened is the hospital industry kind of was dropping at that point. It was kind of, healthcare was in a transition. I applied for 308 positions in nuclear medicine across the United States. I got three responses. I got a job in Kentucky, now I lived in Massachusetts at the time. I was getting ready to pack up to go to Kentucky because I got accepted in the job, and ten days before I was to leave, they cut the budget for the hospital and they cut the nuclear medicine program out at the hospital.
Sara Sheehan: [00:17:44] That's horrific. That is truly, that is so, it's more than the wind out of your sails. That is devastating.
Doug Brown: [00:17:53] Yeah, because, I mean, it wasn't the easiest degree to get, number one, and I had to pass all the tests to get there. And I agree with you. But, you know, it turned out to be a happy story because during that time it was like, well what am I going to do? Right? So I started selling telecommunication services for a multi-level marketing company and it was called Excel Telecommunications. So like, I got to make some money, because I got to at least pay my loans and live. Right? So I started doing that, and then I got offered a position to take emergency call for a hospital locally, which means basically you're up 24 hours a day when they need you, you come in, they pay you. So I was doing that and I was like, geez, this is kind of weird because then when I was in the hospital setting, what I realized was I got in this to help people, but the hospital runs like a business. And so, you know, if I could do five cases a day, they want me to do seven. If I can get seven, they want me to do nine and eleven, and so on and so on. And I was like, that's not why I signed up for this. And when I was in the hospital, they started talking to me about a full-time position, but I was making less money in that full-time position than I was selling music equipment, having a really good time.
Sara Sheehan: [00:19:09] That's a, that's hard. That's a hard pill to swallow.
Doug Brown: [00:19:12] Yeah, yeah. So, you know, so what I said at that point is, you know what? I'm going to try to give this thing sales a real shot. And so I had a little bit of a telecommunications background. So I applied to telecommunications companies, and one of them, right out of the gate, hired me. And I was like, okay, cool. But they were selling something that I had never sold before. So I overnighted myself three telecommunications engineering books, and I looked at them and I studied up on all this digital technology that at the time was cutting edge. Well, long story short, my first year I was their number one rep in the company.
Sara Sheehan: [00:19:55] That's impressive.
Doug Brown: [00:19:56] Yeah, and eventually we had--
Sara Sheehan: [00:19:57] -- really impressive.
Doug Brown: [00:19:58] Yeah, it was great. I mean, we had 320 salespeople at the, you know, toured there. I was the number one guy. I was out-selling, you know, sometimes teams of nine, you know, by myself. Um, I developed a lot of different ways to drive leads to incoming. You know, the CEO of the company was regularly calling me going, what are you doing? I love it, you know, you want to come out to Los Angeles and teach our people out here or come, you know, all over the country. And it was a great thing. And the thing is, is BAM, started making six figure income. Right.
Sara Sheehan: [00:20:29] Nice.
Doug Brown: [00:20:30] And I was like, okay, well, why would I go--
Sara Sheehan: [00:20:32] It's transformative.
Doug Brown: [00:20:33] Yeah. And then it was a multi six. And then, you know, then I got offered a position within and they offered me $450,000 a year for this position. And back then that was still, you know, today it's reasonable money. But back then it was like a lot more money. And I was like jeez, there's something here. And so then what happened was they wanted me to train their teams. And so because I was doing something that was working and then what happened was I helped a training company and the training company asked me to train their people and introduce me to a man named Chet Holmes. Chet wrote a book called The Ultimate Sales Machine. And when I looked at Chet's stuff, I was like, wow, this is really good for business. So I started studying that. As I started studying that, I approached them and said, hey, would you give me a chance to be a coach for your company on growing revenues and companies and things like that? Chet said, yes, I came in there and there and in the first four months, I became their top producing coach, and all I was doing was applying sales skills to the process.
Sara Sheehan: [00:21:37] Excellent. And so if you were to look back at your position that you were just describing where you achieved remarkable results, are they the same skills that you were using in your role as a coach with Chet Holmes organization? Are they the same skills?
Doug Brown: [00:21:59] They were. So the thing is, see, I didn't know much about coaching. I knew some about coaching. But what I did understand was that you can't deliver coaching without having a client. And so if you don't have a client, what's the cause of the problem of not having a client? Well, we're not selling, right? So what I did is applied sales methodology to the coaching business. And so I looked at, you know, all of the things that I teach today. How do you get new clients? How do you increase buying trends? You know, transactional value. How do you increase buying frequency? Right? All of the processes. And I just applied it. And what was happening was I was dealing with business owners especially, and they recognized, oh, okay, this guy can help me, at that time the kid, can help me get there. And so they were they were buying because they had I mean, people buy for two reasons really, when it comes down to it, two major reasons. Number one, they have a problem they want to resolve. Or two, they have some future opportunity that they want to get. Mhm. And, you know, so some type of providing a better future for themselves.
Sara Sheehan: [00:23:17] That's right.
Doug Brown: [00:23:18] So those are the two major arching categories I find that people want to make an investment. Nobody really likes to be sold to, they like to buy. So if we solve those two challenges for them, one way or another, then you know, and if it makes sense, timing's right, all of the factors, you know, we have a sale. It's, you know, as long as we're playing win-win. So that's what I did and I applied that. It worked out great. From there, you know, a man named Tony Robbins came along, wanted to buy into the company. So eventually I became the president of training and sales for that company. And I took Tony's close rate from 17.8% to 43.2% across his presenters teams. And then his sales teams went up and the coaching went up and the consulting went up, and then people started taking notice, you know, of me, I was starting to make a name in that industry, so other people hired me. I worked for Russ Whitney on Rich Dad, Poor Dad and a bunch of other brands. We did work for Brian Tracy, Deepak Chopra, the E-myth Company. You know, the list just goes on, right? The Ask Method company, all kinds of things.
Sara Sheehan: [00:24:23] It's impressive. I mean, it's amazing.
Doug Brown: [00:24:27] Thank you.
Sara Sheehan: [00:24:28] Amazing transformation. And so, let's switch gears and talk a little bit about how you're working with clients today and how how you're serving them. And then maybe we can highlight a couple of cases that demonstrate results in your clients' lives.
Doug Brown: [00:24:50] So how I'm working with people today, so I work, I still work with companies and individuals today. I train individuals who want to, who are good who want to get better, really, when it comes down to it in selling. So, you know, I move them from the next level of where they are to the next level. I mean, it's that simple. You know, it's been very gratifying to see people take the steps from point A to point B, and a lot of them take the step from point A to point M, right? It's because we get them, we get them going, and then they're like, oh, well, I can do better at this or I can do better at that. And really what we're doing is we're teaching them how to think, act like a 1% earner, using 1% strategies and infusing that in and mixing it in with the, what I call the inner guidance system. You know, the inner voice of selling, if you will. And because a lot of times, most times, business challenges are not a business challenge, Sara, they're they're a personal challenge that manifests themselves as a business problem.
Sara Sheehan: [00:25:58] Or potentially mindset.
Doug Brown: [00:26:00] Yeah, a lot of people call it mindset. I'm not a big fan of that word because mindset kind of means it's stuck there. You know, it's like set, right. And, you know, on any given day we wake up with different moods, most of us, or I'll speak for myself. So it's about taking where we are, and you brought up the word habits in the beginning, the rituals and the habits that we do, those are great as long as they're serving. But if we're selling, for example, and we grew up - because a lot of these things stem from childhood - you know, if we grew up in, say, in a negotiation family, right? And I've witnessed people do this, you know, they're always negotiating. They were rewarded for negotiating. Well, they close the sale, and then they renegotiate the sale, and they lose the sale because they're renegotiating. Right? So it's things like that, and they don't even know why they're doing it. So we work on those triggers that happen as well as all of the strategies and tactical things. But what we're also doing is teaching them revenue growth strategies in the process, how to think like an owner, how to think like a business person, how to think like the other person that we're actually selling to because we're not selling to titles, we're selling to people. And so what are the trigger levels for those people? So we're going pretty deep into that whole process with people and it works great. You know, I've had people go, like I had one guy go from $140,000 a year in commissions to 2.1 million in commissions in this first year. You know, I've had--
Sara Sheehan: [00:27:31] That's beyond transformative.
Doug Brown: [00:27:33] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, it's not just one person that I've had have results like that. So, usually people tell us, you know, we're worth at least five times what we asked for for the process. So that's always a good thing, because I always like to provide a minimum 5 to 1 return on the on the process. So, and then with companies we're helping them with two facets where a) just growing the revenues and the profits in the company, and b) you know, how do they work with their own sales teams or sales people and, you know, have them become what they want them to become anyways, which is, you know, far better producers. And then, you know, as a byproduct of that, we also build and manage sometimes, you know, commission sales teams for people and companies.
Sara Sheehan: [00:28:26] That is so impressive. I believe that the work that you do is needed by so many people that don't even recognize it.
Doug Brown: [00:28:37] Yeah, I would agree. I was having a conversation earlier with somebody actually who decided to buy something off me, which was great. So he was saying the same thing. He was like, you know, I don't think people understand. They don't know what they don't know, so to speak, and that we all want to be able to sell better, but we don't want to be that personified, you know, used car salesperson. His words, not mine. I think sometimes used car salespeople are really great people and they sell ethically. But the, you know, he didn't want to be that slimy salesperson. And a lot of the training he goes to, it's just kind of teaching them to come top down on people like the the old way of selling, like the old Tin Man selling strategies. Right? Those don't work. Almost don't work at all any longer, but they're still being taught out there. And really, selling is nothing more than one person, because sometimes we sell ourselves, or more than one person trying to resolve a challenge or have a better future. And having that conversation to figure out what is the best pathway to do that. And people have been doing this long before people were selling to one another. You know, it's just we didn't have maybe a formal thing or exchange for money, but we used to do bartering systems, or we would do something else. Right? And that's, so it's, you know, I mean it's been around as long as human beings have been around.
Sara Sheehan: [00:30:05] Absolutely. And so let's switch gears again. And if you can, highlight a couple of your client case studies and what those clients achieved after working with you.
Doug Brown: [00:30:23] Yeah, well, I'll take Tony Robbins and Chet Holmes. Their company was great. What I did with them is, because I was the number one producer, they were asking me to help other people, so I had to kind of figure out, deconstruct what I was doing. So I started teaching that to their people. But one of the things that I've learned early on was always look at the numbers. And a lot of people don't look at the numbers in their business. Because the numbers tell a story. So one of the ways I was able to get that close rate to change was to look at the numbers, because at the time they were putting out a one size fits all product, which, you know, and it never ceases to amaze me. I've worked with Intuit, Proctor and Gamble, I've worked with Enterprise Rent-A-Car, you know, nationwide, big companies. And they miss it. They miss the one size all sometimes doesn't work, right?
Sara Sheehan: [00:31:17] So talk to me. Talk to me a little bit about what the detail and the numbers revealed. Is it actual number of times.
Doug Brown: [00:31:25] Yeah. So for example they were offering a training product. The training product was geared toward, I would say, upper small businesses to enterprise level clients. But when I looked at their lead base, 70% of the leads coming through were under $300,000 in revenue. Which would be a small company. So there was a training mismatch. So from the message was bringing them in but the actual deliverable was actually off. So there was a market to mismatch messaging. And so what I did is I looked at this and I segmented the audience. And so I broke down the audience in three components. People under under 300,000 people 300,000 up to a million, well, actually it was 4, up to $1 million, $1 million to $5 million, and then $5 million and beyond. And I took the same product sets that they had, and I just readjusted the messaging, but I adjusted it to the audience and what they needed at that level that they were coming in. So, for example, anybody under $1 million, they're full focus should be on just getting new clients and increasing transactional value and regeneration of clients. Right? They should be going to get to $1 million just focused on selling. When we go from a million to say, let's say, 5 million, we're still focused on that, but now we're focused on putting systems and processes and things into the business to make the business be able to scale.
Sara Sheehan: [00:33:07] Mhm.
Doug Brown: [00:33:07] When you get beyond 5 million for most companies, and these are just general benchmarks, right - I mean it depends on the industry and what they're selling - from there now we're talking about scaling that business in a different way. So you might have, as $1 million company, you might have one sales person. As a $5 million company, you might have 3 or 4 salespeople. Right? But now to get from 5 million to 50 million, you're going to scale that sales team.
Sara Sheehan: [00:33:36] For sure.
Doug Brown: [00:33:36] It's, that's what I did, is I segmented the offerings. And then I trained the sales teams on how to sell to the right level and how to have the conversation with that person on that level, because a person who's doing $300,000 a year in a business, if they, let's say it's their first business, and a person who's doing to the extreme $300 million, that conversation with the owner is going to be very different.
Sara Sheehan: [00:34:05] Very different.
Doug Brown: [00:34:07] Right. So I train the teams on how to relate and communicate on that level, the sales teams, and I segmented the product mix. And so to give you an example, they had one on the under $300,000. They were converting it less than 1%. And I took what they had as they call the sales mastery system, I revamped that, just added six weeks worth of group coaching. They were selling this originally for $800, it was $795. I brought the product up to $1450, added some group coaching to it. Now, prior to me getting there, they were selling 8 of these a month on average, in our first month of segmenting that, they went from 8 and we got 108 sales our first month.
Sara Sheehan: [00:34:55] Wow.
Doug Brown: [00:34:57] Our second month we went to 232. The third month we went to 346, I believe the number was. Right?
Sara Sheehan: [00:35:06] That is amazing.
Doug Brown: [00:35:08] Yeah. So it's, again, this is what I did internally by looking at the numbers. And then I went back to their sales teams and I looked at their numbers on their front end of the sales. And we were able to get the conversion to go, strange but the sales management was reporting skewed numbers, which is not unusual, but they were claiming they were closing at 19%. They were closing at 12.1%. We then were able to revamp it, do the same thing I did with the other teams, and we took that from 12, 12.1% to 21%. And the thing is, is I had that position there for five years and it never came down. The numbers never came down for the five year period I was there.
Sara Sheehan: [00:35:51] That is very impressive. And that is a wonderful illustration of the results of your work.
Doug Brown: [00:35:59] Yeah, yeah. And it can be, it can be, you know, something like that. It could be, you know, with Intuit, they were losing $10 million on a division. We got them to go from a $10 million loss to a $7 million gain in one year. But it was all messaging, you know, they were messaging out the wrong message. I had another company that I showed how to build an agent base. Right? They were doing internal sales, but they wanted to expand and grow. They went from 3.5 million to 10 million, took them two years to get there, and then they went to 11 million and they got an offer to buy out, which the owner told me was ridiculous money. So it was like a, you know, five x multiple on revenue. It was really interesting. So, you know, I've done that. And then, you know, there's a lot of different, uh, small and medium sized businesses that I could tell stories about. But the whole bottom line is when we look at the numbers, we're applying strategies of the 1%, companies who are doing those type of things, but taking them into small and medium sized business, applying those into the sales teams themselves, training people on how to act and think that way, it does work, and it's been working for a long time for people.
Sara Sheehan: [00:37:15] Mhm. Right. That is a remarkable thing. A lot of people, if they applied some of these practices, activities and habits in their daily lives, they would see tremendous results. Which is why I wanted to highlight you so, so much. I was wondering if we could switch gears and you could chat a little bit with me about your upcoming launch with Vibitno.
Doug Brown: [00:37:46] Yeah, yeah Vibitno's been a, it's been a passion of mine for a long time. So the Vibitno is a personalized, meaningful, follow up system. That's why it was started. Because you talked about habits and rituals, right? A lot of people do not follow up with people. And they, in a lot of ways, it's not their fault, especially in the business context, because, you know, I mean, when you start getting 100, 200, 300 people you're talking with on a regular basis, it's like, how do you follow up with all these people? How do you stay in touch? But Vitbino was, is coming out in 2024, and the Vibitno is solving that problem for people. And it came about through our own pain. Like when, even when I was in the telecommunications world, a friend of mine who was a top producer at another company, we went to a Panera Bread one day and we were, you know, which is for those people who don't know that that's like a sandwich shop, bakery, it's kind of a chain. And we were sitting there and just, I'll say, commiserating or, you know, bitching about our days like, oh, we can't get this done, or I wish we had this and I can't follow up with these people, I can't do this. And I have, you know, losing sales here. And it's, you know, when you're when you're hitting high numbers, you don't want to lose money. It's that simple. Right? So we had assistance to cover some of this stuff but it still wasn't getting done. And we were like man, if we just had a technology that would do this. And so we wrote down on a back of a napkin everything we wanted. And I was like, you know, I'm going to build this. Well, technology wasn't there then to be able to do that, but it is now. And so I explained--
Sara Sheehan: [00:39:32] And so is this, is this a CRM system with automation?
Doug Brown: [00:39:37] I popped, I put a CRM into the system. But what it was really designed for, I mean, I don't know in your life, Sara, but let's say, you know, there are relationships that I have made over the years where it's like, you know, I want to get in touch with them more often just to keep the relationship alive. But it's like I just get busy, you know, I got a couple businesses I'm running, I've got client work I'm doing, you know?
Sara Sheehan: [00:40:04] Absolutely.
Doug Brown: [00:40:04] You know, family for me is primary, so my children are, you know, I'm always involved in their lives, probably more than that they even want me to be. But it's, you know, I can't help it, I'm that type of dad. And, you know, then I have my personal friendships and all this stuff, and it's like, literally sometimes it's hundreds or thousands of people over time, but I just couldn't stay in touch with these people. And so I was like, I've got to do something, but I don't want to just send like, some scripted message to them. I want it to be meaningful, right?
Sara Sheehan: [00:40:38] Absolutely.
Doug Brown: [00:40:39] Yeah.
Sara Sheehan: [00:40:40] Personal.
Doug Brown: [00:40:40] So what I wanted to do, you know, if you don't mind me sharing this, like, you know, you just had a cat that just passed that you had for 16 years, and you have another one that's seven years old and you just found out it's a diabetic and you're taking care of that. And, you know, so something as a simple bonding point on that, what if I could create something that would create automated relevancy that was meaningful to you and let's say, like, after this call, I don't know, a month goes by and you get a message. And it was like, hey, so just thinking about you, your husband, but I was also thinking about Joy, your cat. And I just want to know how's the cat doing with diabetes? Right?
Sara Sheehan: [00:41:25] That is, that's very sweet. I love that. Heartfelt.
Doug Brown: [00:41:30] And it's meaningful. Right?
Sara Sheehan: [00:41:32] Absolutely.
Doug Brown: [00:41:34] You know, hey, if you ever want to catch up, just let me know. You would just be in thought, or something as simple as that. Now a lot of people go, well, that's not very businessy. It's like, well, let me tell you something, I've followed up with people for two years and then got a little company called NASCAR as a client from it. Right? So I would learn things about people. So what we did with Vibitno is we recreated all that, but the system will actually create everything for you. And it'll, even if you forget, it'll bring the content up and say, hey, do you want to send this? Or it will actually send the content for you based on relevancy.
Sara Sheehan: [00:42:09] Wow. And so is there some machine learning aspect, or...?
Doug Brown: [00:42:13] Yeah, in the beginning it was templates in there trying to figure out, you know, templates. But now with AI and everything coming in the way it is, it's a lot easier to implement this process. And it was really designed not as, it was designed as a relationship building tool, not a real sales tool. But people kept saying, my gosh, you know what? What if I could do this on the front end? What if I could do this with my marketing on the front end? I sell high end clients, for example, right? And then I started talking to people who were selling high end and asking them how many deals a year are you dropping? And so, you know, then I started looking at, and they're like, well, probably six. And I'm like, well, if you think it's six, it's more, I already know that. So what's your average deal? Well, it's $30,000. So it's like so you're dropping 180 K out of the sky every year. How many years are you doing that? Oh ten. There's 1.8 million, right? I'm like, okay, well would you pay 100 bucks a month for service that would gain back the majority of those sells, right? Because we all know, and this was the epitome, I was actually on a, someone asked me to come to a sales consultant training call where they're training sales consultants.
Sara Sheehan: [00:43:25] Perfect.
Doug Brown: [00:43:26] And we all know that lack of follow up causes lost sales. I mean, that's pretty much, right?
Sara Sheehan: [00:43:32] Absolutely.
Doug Brown: [00:43:32] So this lady literally said on this call, guys, I just dropped the sale. We go, we're talking about this, I just dropped the sale and it went to another representative. She was an independent marketer for another company, and she had talked to this company a year ago, and this company had just closed and she didn't follow up. And she told us, she said, I didn't follow up and the other person just happened to follow up. And they were ready then and they bought and it was 500 units and it was $1,000 a unit, and they bought it for five years. So it's like--
Sara Sheehan: [00:44:12] That was painful.
Doug Brown: [00:44:13] Yeah. So half $1 million a year for five years, $2.5 million. Now the killer is, her commission is 50% on this.
Sara Sheehan: [00:44:22] This is horrible.
Doug Brown: [00:44:23] Right? So she lost $1.25 million over five years. Guaranteed contract. You know, so you get what I'm saying, right?
Sara Sheehan: [00:44:33] I do. I see that companies will pay for this tool. Having this platform in their lives can make selling easier and better.
Doug Brown: [00:44:47] And individuals will as well. And that's, you know, like I talked to real estate agents, I'm like, how many homes are you drop in a year, right? And they were like, well, I don't know. You know, same numbers. And I'm like, okay, so your average commission at a $500,000 price point 6%, $30,000, you're dropping ten homes a year, 300 grand a year, right? You start doing the numbers whether you're a manufacturer's representative or you're selling healthcare, you're a coach or a consultant or whatever, but the reality is, it's not just the drop sales, because it's how many referrals could we spawn out of good relationships that we're not doing today? So there's this whole thing about buying frequency, transactional value, and getting new clients that were just dropping, even post selling. And so it was, you know, that's kind of where it's going. But yeah, I put a CRM into it, just so if people wanted to use the CRM, but I want to be able to make it work with other programs and products like, you know, Salesforce and Pipedrive or whatever people are using as well. And then what I did is I built in what I call a goal plan into this process where people can actually figure out if they want to make net commissions of X, they need to be able to sell a certain amount. But we figured in all the churn rates and all the drop sales and all of the expenses and everything, so they'll know exactly what they need to sell every year.
Sara Sheehan: [00:46:11] That is a genius thing to add that really demonstrates your sales leadership and your knowledge in leading a sales organization. I can't wait to see it. Truly, I can't wait to see it.
Doug Brown: [00:46:28] Well, if you want, you want to be a beta tester, let me know because we're coming out with it.
Sara Sheehan: [00:46:32] I would be glad. I would be glad. I spent some time on your page today. And I'm on your list.
Doug Brown: [00:46:39] Oh. Thank you.
Sara Sheehan: [00:46:41] Yeah, excellent. And so, in terms of our listeners, I want them to know the actual website URL is V I B I T N O.com. Is that correct?
Doug Brown: [00:46:53] Yeah it's Vibitno. Yep. That's exactly how it's spelled. And it actually means, I took it from a Slavic language, it means 'you matter' in Slavic language or you know, or 'esteemed one', you know.
Sara Sheehan: [00:47:05] Excellent. I love the name, and I love what you're doing with this platform. And I believe it will only extend your impact even further and bring more people to you that can transform their lives and the lives of the people in theirs as well. And so with that, uh, Doug, is there anything else that you would like to share today about what you're up to?
Doug Brown: [00:47:31] No, no, I think it's all good. I mean, I don't know if you're aware of this or not, but I wrote an e-book just recently called The Nonstop 1% Earner. People want to get that. They can go to CEOSalesStrategies.com/TheNumberOne and then PE, percent earner, and just download the e-book.
Sara Sheehan: [00:47:52] Excellent. That is a wonderful promo for your e-book. I will make sure to go find that myself because I feel very strongly about the advice that you have and how you're guiding people, and I know that it can even impact me in a positive way.
Doug Brown: [00:48:12] I appreciate that, and if anybody wants to learn, we've got a 1% University, a Sales University that's out now. And you know, if they want to come explore that, please do. They definitely won't be disappointed, I can tell you that.
Sara Sheehan: [00:48:25] Excellent. Do you have a mastermind that's forming any time soon?
Doug Brown: [00:48:29] I don't have a mastermind. People have been asking me about forming a mastermind, so I might put something together on that. We train pretty heavily on the sales side, so, you know, it's usually multiple times a week. So it kind of acts like a mastermind, but it's not really that type of mastermind. So I am considering putting one together. So thanks for bringing it up again. And I just wrote it down.
Sara Sheehan: [00:48:48] Outstanding. Well, I really appreciate your time today, Doug. Is there any way that our listeners should reach out to you? What's the best way?
Doug Brown: [00:48:57] Yeah, they can, I mean, if they want to know more about me personally, LinkedIn is usually good. Uh, Doug Brown, DOUG BROWN 123 is the LinkedIn. They can send an email to you matter, [email protected]. My team will pick it up. You know, if they want to get directly to me, they can send it to [email protected]. We answer everybody's inquiries. So if for some reason you don't hear back, you know, reach out at (603) 595-0303 and let us know. But we do, we are definitely very good at getting back to people.
Sara Sheehan: [00:49:36] Fantastic. Well I really appreciate your time today, Doug, and I'm so glad to be able to share your message.
Doug Brown: [00:49:42] Thank you. I'm very grateful you have me on, Sara.
Sara Sheehan: [00:49:45] Thank you. Thank you so much for listening to Episode Ten, CEO Sales Strategies with Doug C Brown. I'm so thrilled to be able to share this conversation with you. The three big takeaways from today are, First) Rethink pricing and value. Doug's strategy of increasing product prices while adding value through group coaching led to a remarkable surge in sales. This approach not only improved revenue, but also positioned products more attractively in the market. Second) The power of personalized follow ups. The upcoming launch of Vibitno showcases the importance of maintaining relationships in a bustling business environment. Utilizing CRM and AI technology, Doug stresses the significance of relationship-building over transactional sales. Third) Leverage 1% improvements. Now that's a winning strategy. Small continuous enhancement in sales skills and team performance can lead to exponential growth over time. Doug's concept of 1% strategies can help clients not just compete, but dominate in their respective fields. Thanks so much for tuning in today. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Spotify so you never miss an episode!
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Sara Sheehan welcomes Jocelyn Chong - Business Consultant, Corporate Trainer, and Professional Speaker - to the podcast to talk about Jocelyn’s work in coaching executives and business leaders in the power of money mindset, sales, leadership, and business development. Jocelyn shares her own personal journey through the financial world into a deeper realization of herself.
When Jocelyn talks about her career journey, it’s a story filled with milestones and financial success, but well into it she realized that something was missing. She took some time off to rest, reflect, and discover who she was. What she learned was that she needed alignment in her internal and external worlds. She built her consultancy business out of this realization.
In this episode, Sara Sheehan learns about Jocelyn’s coaching techniques and how she assists clients to achieve success in their business journeys. Jocelyn’s focus on the mindset of leadership and sales allows her to support her clients in understanding the positive side of what they do and how they can influence their clients for the better. The conversation invites us to think about more than just financial success but to examine what we truly want out of our work.
About Jocelyn Chong, MBA, GAICD:
With a solid background in banking and finance, Jocelyn brings a unique and fresh layer of expertise to the corporate training world. Her research and practical experience in the corporate world truly enhance her ability to guide clients toward success in both individual and organizational contexts.
Jocelyn specializes in helping entrepreneurs and executives realize the success they desire. They often encounter a common challenge – while exceptionally skilled in their respective fields, their leadership and sales strategies are often improvised. Lacking the necessary support and growth-oriented feedback, they struggle to cultivate the right mindset, expand their outreach, and sell purposefully.
It doesn't have to be this way.
Every talented and dedicated professional possesses something valuable and deserves to reach their full potential without the endless grind and desperate hustle. To address this, Jocelyn developed personalized offerings, including corporate training, private coaching and workshops, all based on her signature methodology. This method focuses on renewing mindset, self-leadership, magnetic selling, and embodiment.
Resources discussed in this episode:
“Playing Big” by Tara Mohr—
Contact Sara Sheehan | Sara Sheehan Consulting:
SaraWSheehan.comSara Sheehan on LinkedInMeet with SaraContact Jocelyn Chong | CEO & Founder, Seed To Sequoia:
Website: JocelynChong.com.auLinkedIn__
Transcript:
Sara Sheehan: [00:00:04] Hi there, I'm Sara Sheehan and welcome to my podcast, Transformational Thinkers with Sara Sheehan. Today I'm talking with my friend Jocelyn Chong about her business, coaching executives and business leaders on the power of money mindset, sales leadership and business development. Jocelyn is a beautiful example of her own work in mastering her own mindset and helping others to do the same so that they can make their next big leap of growth in their business. If you would like to learn more after listening to today's discussion, check out the show notes for a link to book a meeting with me or Jocelyn. So, Jocelyn, welcome. I'm so glad to have you here today. Tell me and our listeners a little bit about your back story that led to you starting your business. I know from our friendship that you were born in Malaysia and moved to Australia as a teen, but I would love to hear the story from you.
Jocelyn Chong: [00:01:22] Absolutely. Thank you so much, Sara, for inviting me to be part of this show and picking up from your point there, I was born and raised in Malaysia. I left home when I was 17 to pursue my tertiary education in Australia, and I graduated with accounting and finance so it was a natural step to move to accounting firms. So I work for Ernst & Young and at Ernst & Young I was discovering a lot of areas that I like and I don't like, and I enjoyed what I did in accounting, and my client one day decided that they wanted to offer me a job in their company because I was helping them in a number of ways that made a huge difference on their business outcomes and results. So I accepted the role and relocated from South Australia to Victoria within four weeks. And in that four weeks, I've learned so much about transition and change management and adapting to a whole new city. I then work for that organization, which is a nationwide organization, it's a private, family-owned business on recycling and waste management. Travel around the country, did their internal audits and learn a great deal but realize that I've always, always wanted to work for a bank. So I took the courage to leave accountancy and move into banking. I applied for the role for the second largest bank at the time in Australia, Westpac, and secured a position in retail banking.
Jocelyn Chong: [00:03:08] From there I learned all the banking systems, you know, customer journey. I was very, very clear with all the different products and services that would add value to the different markets or people that come my way. Because I excelled in the work that I did in retail banking, one of the senior managers, when they came into our area and started chatting to me about financial planning, investments and helping people in retirement planning, and I realized that was something that I wanted to pursue, but I didn't know how to. And he mentored me for a few weeks and told me what course I could do in order to pursue financial planning. And I invested time over the weekend working full-time on Saturday and Sundays to study hard. And at that time, actually, I might add, I was working on a Saturday as well because I was working five and a half days a week. I wanted to actually work hard, save a deposit for my own home, and you can imagine how challenging it is if you are renting and you're trying to save for a deposit for your own home, it's one of the most challenging time because you want to go out. You're young and there's so many things that you could do, but yet, you know, you are so conscious about the financial component.
Jocelyn Chong: [00:04:40] And so I went through that journey, and I very much appreciated that I was able to save enough deposit to buy my own place. And I also pursued the financial planning career after I completed and certified myself with all the necessary certifications for financial planning in Australia. From there, I had 15 plus year career in financial planning, moved up into leadership and move up into national projects, work alongside very senior leaders like CEOs, board management, and different departments as well, different department heads. And then later with the Australian regulator, our Australian Tax Office, as our stakeholder, to implement a number of mega huge projects that roll out over time. I was also involved in a lot of national projects on digitization and change management. And I learn a great deal. But equally, when I was learning a great deal, I was losing myself in the world of chasing after the next role, chasing after that shiny object, you know? I was at one point in one season in my life that I was dressing, every part of me was wearing somewhat a brand because I allow my identity to be connected to, you know, Gucci, Louis Vuitton, driving a BMW, you know, just...
Sara Sheehan: [00:06:05] Sure.
Jocelyn Chong: [00:06:06] Those high life. But I was so far away from the truth of who I am, my authentic self. And I didn't know any different. And looking back at it now, I realized how limiting that was because I was sold the idea by media, by publications, by the way the society associates success with is with all those brands, all those achievements, external stuff that you do, the travels that you go to.
Jocelyn Chong: [00:06:40] But I was losing the true Jocelyn in me, and I started to realize around the age of 38 that there was something more, that working 60 hours a week earning great income isn't exciting anymore. I know that there's something more, but I couldn't quite pinpoint what exactly was that. I was continuously searching, looking for it, and I didn't have really associated with good connections, friends outside of work, because my role was banking and finance. I was surrounded by people in banking and finance. I was making friends with in the organization, and I had very few friends outside of finance industry. And one day I came across a book by Tara Mohr called Playing Big, and I could not put that book down. And I was reading that book within a day. And I realized something that was really speaking to me. She was, almost every page was reading my thoughts and asking me to break away from all this environment that was so limiting, but yet do the world, its achievement to the world, it's something that you want to excel for. And the work that she talked about was...
Sara Sheehan: [00:08:08] What was the title of that book?
Jocelyn Chong: [00:08:10] Playing Big by Tara Mohr.
Sara Sheehan: [00:08:12] Playing big.
Jocelyn Chong: [00:08:12] Playing Big by Tara Mohr.
Sara Sheehan: [00:08:14] Thank you so much.
Jocelyn Chong: [00:08:16] Yes. And that was one of the first few books that I read that was non-finance related. And it was very much about seeking your own soul's calling, seeking your burning desire. Because in finance and in banking, you always want to achieve the company's goals, the company's vision, the company's expectation, and pleasing your leaders because you want to get plum assignments. And so I did that because I thought that was the way, that was the way to navigate through office politics. But then that was also not aligned with my true core values that I had always wanted to embrace in my life. I felt there was such a distance in me. There was a tug of war with my external self and my internal self. Fast forward to 2019, we had a Royal Commission for Banking and Finance in Australia, and that was wrapped up with 73 recommendations in February 2019. And at the time, the organization that I was working with decided to spin off their entire investment financial planning arm. And once they announced that in March 2019, we made the entire division, thousands of people, redundant by 1st of July 2019. Now I was making different job families redundant because I was a senior leader. So my role was to help people work through that, and there were so many job families that was under my responsibility.
Jocelyn Chong: [00:09:54] But equally, my manager was making me redundant too, because it was trickled down that way. So I was trying to hold space for my direct reports and people around us and trying to make things work as best as we can for our clients, because we need to transition all our clients out into other organizations so that other people, other financial advisors, can help them. So I suppress my emotions to process that pain. After I was made redundant the second week of July, I had time to myself. I started then to work through and process the grief of being made redundant. I never knew the significance about that until I went through that, because I'm always the one that, you know, I did many rounds of redundancies over my career in the last 23 years. Because you hire, you fire, and you train your on board. And so that was something that you do, even though it's a very painful process. But you also need to meet your business results. That hit me. And I started to realize that at that point in time I needed to pause and not work for a couple of months just to recollect myself, because I was so immersed in the corporate career that I was selling my soul to the devil, so called.
Jocelyn Chong: [00:11:32] And I realized that I need to take control back and reflect. What would I want to do for the next chapter of my career? I've done over two decades of, um, corporate career at that point in time, significant amount of experience. I have an MBA. I work at senior level, but yet deep down in my soul there was a gap, there was a missing gap, and I took three months to chill, to sleep, to give myself the permission to reflect and discover more of who I am. The true Jocelyn that was so far away because I was so immersed in the world of working and chasing after the next big role. And, you know, running things and being busy was the way of life. But I needed to pull back and calm my nerves and really rest. And that was when I received my true understanding of there was something more that I need to close that gap, and I need to bring alignment in my internal world and my external world. That work took months, took years, and still working on it because, you know, inner work is something that we continue to do. We continue to improve. We continue to grow.
Sara Sheehan: [00:13:05] It's absolutely a daily, it's a daily test and a daily agenda item for me, for sure. So that daily inner work and mindset work, it is so important. To make sure that you're literally pulling the weeds out of your mind and not letting them take root. Exactly.
Jocelyn Chong: [00:13:29] Exactly. And so I invest that time working through it. But also I had this desire that I wanted to set up my own consulting practice. I thought that I would buy a book and set up my own financial planning practice, and I explored that opportunity, but didn't feel that that was aligned with my soul's calling. And 2021, I decided to set up my own consulting practice, and that was how I work for myself now today, and partner with a lot of like-minded professionals. And that's a short version of my story over the last, you know, 12, 15 minutes or so.
Sara Sheehan: [00:14:13] That is a wonderful version of your story. And so let's talk about your business itself, and let's talk about what you do and how you work with clients. I framed it up at the beginning of our discussion, but I would really love to hear your version of how you're working with clients.
Jocelyn Chong: [00:14:31] Absolutely.
Sara Sheehan: [00:14:32] I characterized it as money mindset, sales leadership, and business development, and I'm aware of some work that you do in communications with clients. But please tell our listeners what you do in your business with Seed to Sequoia.
Jocelyn Chong: [00:14:52] Yes. So I focus on leadership, sales, and mindset. I found that the sales part was a core component of majority of my career, and I love sales. I have never seen sales any different apart from serving someone else, and that I can help them achieve their highest level of results. So I see sales from that perspective, and I was very privileged to work alongside a lot of people who see sales from a very positive perspective. But I also come across a lot of people who had bad experiences or never understood the true meaning of sales. And so my role today is to coach them, support them, help them understand that sales is really just helping someone get a better result. And leadership was--
Sara Sheehan: [00:15:46] Absolutely.
Jocelyn Chong: [00:15:47] -- what I focused on for decades of my life, I've always placed in a position of leadership, whether it's a volunteering capacity at church or at school, sports club, you know, art club or Toastmasters, or in any different organization that was part of, you know, both paid and non-paid. And so I integrated both because leadership needs to come from within, and it needs to be something that you want to lead yourself first, then you can lead others. So self leadership is the foundation of what you want to do for you, that you can trust that that process works for you. Then it is the next step to serve others with your leadership skills. So I integrate that. And mindset is just very fundamental in everything that I do because it is our thoughts that creates our feelings, our feelings create our actions, and our actions create our results. And so I use that framework around how we can take control of our thoughts, because that is the one thing that we have, the power of choice and the power of control over ourselves. We can't be responsible about other people's, you know, actions or thoughts, but we can influence them. But what we can do for ourselves is really the area that we can control our thoughts and the intention that we can set up for ourselves. And so my practice focuses on that. And what sets my consulting practice apart from others is that, you know, I've got those unique experiences, and I integrate very practical, um, elements to my coaching component and my consulting component, because I want to bring that practicality to marry alongside with the concepts that I teach because I think it's the practical element, the human element, that people really engage and they get it. And so that is how my practice works.
Sara Sheehan: [00:17:53] Excellent. And so do you have any clients that are excellent case studies representing the results that you bring in working with a client that you could share with us?
Jocelyn Chong: [00:18:08] Absolutely. So let me share one of my clients who had 11 years in corporate finance. And what happened was in the last, last year, at the time where she stepped into the role, she knew roughly her three year plan. She knew roughly what her financial goals for her business were. And at the time, she was seated around about $38,000 in cash in her business account, she came to me, she note that there were certain gaps in her business that she needed support. And we did a full analysis. From that analysis, I then prioritize which area was really important for her to focus her time, her energy and her resources. And we did that work for over five months, and by the end of December, where we reviewed that before we head off away for holidays, she made $240,000.
Sara Sheehan: [00:19:16] Wow.
Jocelyn Chong: [00:19:16] Now how she did that? It was her willingness to be coachable. It was her willingness to test and learn different strategies that we put in place and refine them every single week, and she was very open to feedback, and we had focused on three simple things every single time, rather than focusing on so many things because you don't have the capacity and we can get distracted all the time. We focus on what she is really good in, and we narrowed down her niche market as well, so that she is very focused on just speaking to that profile of clients every single time she meets people at networking events, she goes to different industry functions. She connects with those clients in that category when she asks for an introduction.
Jocelyn Chong: [00:20:22] And so because she focused her time and energy and we actually monitor every week her progress and we talk about what she did really well, we celebrated every single progress and milestone. And then we talk about what's the 1 or 2 things that we could tweak and apply them differently the following week. And so those are really the small part. And then behind that and underneath that, we dealt with a lot of mindset areas that will come up with different scenarios and how to manage. You know, I call them high value energy and low value energy. And when she hits low value energy, what are the steps and the tools that she is equipped to take herself back to high value energy? And so we work through that. And now she's armed with tools. It's more of arming herself with tools and strategies so that she knows how to recognize it, and then how to apply which tool and strategy to take her out from those times where it's challenging, those times that she needs to push through the barriers, those times that she needs to overcome that obstacle. So those were the, you know, work that we did over the last five months plus. And that's a great, great testimonial. So yeah.
Sara Sheehan: [00:21:47] That's a fantastic case study. Fantastic case study for sure. Absolutely fantastic. Did you have another one that might be different in what the client's struggle was, but one that really shows results through coaching?
Jocelyn Chong: [00:22:09] Yeah. So let me give you another lady. And this is quite a good one because this lady is a very ambitiousness. So she works with infectious disease, so infectious disease throughout Covid, Covid is one of those categories. And she wanted to be a lecturer, so she did her Master's. She worked in a very intense medical environment in the Covid space, and we had coaching around how she can transition herself to be a lecturer. So within four months, she managed to secure a job and to onboard herself with a new role, with a new identity. Because working in the medical field is very different than teaching, it's a very different skill set, where--
Sara Sheehan: [00:23:06] For sure.
Jocelyn Chong: [00:23:07] -- her gap was actually speaking to crowds because she was very nervous. She's got all the knowledge, but the words, the information coming through was quite challenging because she did not articulate that. And also she came from another country, so English was not her first language. And when you educate, you know, students that come from different cultural backgrounds and how you, you know, communicate and how you calm the class, I remembered couple of challenges was how to help her students work alongside with each other, and how to address behaviors that are destructive in her classroom. She also needed to really practice her speaking skills with me, so that it's not the first time that she delivered a presentation in an event or a class. So we did a lot of--
Sara Sheehan: [00:24:07] That's amazing. Yeah.
Jocelyn Chong: [00:24:09] -- role play. We did a lot of presentations so that she had a lot of fallback and she could get feedback from me, and we could really massage the way she showed up, the way she presented, and the way she also use her body. I mean did you know that, you know, 93% of communication is nonverbal, which means, you know, for her to know how to use her body to communicate as well, not just the words. And so she would have all this written, you know, presentations, but is to help her speak and navigate through the class and help her students, you know, collaborate with her and engage with her, participate in the classroom, so that everyone is getting value and optimized, you know, the time in the classrooms for different experiments as well. So it was all these little areas, but the part that stood out for her was she was able to speak to someone like me, that she can practice and feel comfortable so that when she show up to her group, she already built that muscle of confidence. And I think as a coach, as a mentor, as a guide, that was, you know, something that made a huge difference for her because I was able to just give her that understanding, coming from my own experience, coming from my own background, having, you know, so much fear and nervousness and afraid of how people would judge me when I'm speaking in English wasn't my first language, coming into Australia, I was able to share those learnings with her, how I overcome those fears and all the limiting thoughts. And that's significantly helped her so much. And she enjoyed her job. She got a lot of praise report from her students by the end of the semester, and they gave her more subjects to cover the following semester.
Sara Sheehan: [00:26:12] Interesting. That's a great case study. And a great success story at that. Are there any programs that you're currently about to launch where you're in the planning phase? And seeking, for instance, participants for a cohort?
Jocelyn Chong: [00:26:33] Yes. If you go to my website, there will always be something that's coming up the following month. So you can, you know, follow up with what's coming up. And joining my email list allows you to get a lot of helpful and useful tips as well, because my intention for sharing through email is to share 1 or 2 things that I have learned, my stories, my lessons, my mistakes, and that, you know, my audience can collapse time and learn from me so that you do not have to make those mistakes. And I have done the work. I've done the research for 40 years, so you can learn and get that insight. So that's a couple of avenues that you can tap into, free resources that I have created. And there are paid programs that I offer as well. So plenty that you can explore as someone who wants to check out, you know, my work in Australia.
Sara Sheehan: [00:28:15] Outstanding, Jocelyn. And so one thing that I've always known about you is that you always seem to be writing or speaking, and I was just wondering what you might be working on right now. I've known you to participate in many multi-author books and writing lots of articles, but what are you up to right now that's interesting and exciting?
Jocelyn Chong: [00:28:43] My year of 2024 is to really immerse myself in actually experimenting a lot of AI resources. So that's my focus this year in one of my business vision boards. And yesterday I was speaking in one of, one of the events that held every quarter, and we were talking about Pivot and Prosper for 2024. So I'm always passionate about how we can pivot to the next level. There's, you know, this saying that I've always, always repeat to my audience is that, you know, don't work any harder, that you're not getting the results that you're looking for, but work smarter. What are the ways that you can work smarter in order to get easier and better results? Because working harder can get you tired, exhausted, frustrated, disappointed. And so what are the ways that you can renew your mind? Either, you know, join a conference, you know, listen to a podcast, go out and meet people that you've never met before. And most recently, in the last two months, I had taken the time to actually remove myself, number one, from a lot of Facebook groups that I thought wasn't in alignment with where I want to move forward in 2024.
Jocelyn Chong: [00:30:11] The second thing was I also cleaned up my LinkedIn connections. You know, there were connections I connected for many years, but there was nothing there. And we were moving in different directions. So I also removed them. Likewise for Facebook as well, so that I can welcome and create space for new opportunities, you know, new people to come into my environment because for me, I genuinely want to create and build connections with people that we could be long, creating long and lasting friendships and supporting each other throughout the journey. And it's okay to, you know, separate yourself from people who may not want to come on a journey because it's okay. You know, there's different people that comes across, you know, our path at different seasons, different times of our lives. So I always see that, you know, if I could only have, you know, a couple of thousand people on my Facebook group, I want to make sure that whatever content that I put out there is going to be a blessing for them.
Sara Sheehan: [00:31:14] Absolutely.
Jocelyn Chong: [00:31:15] I like to always think when I do this in my morning ritual, and I pray and like God, you know, may my content today serves as an answered prayer for someone's prayer.
Sara Sheehan: [00:31:26] There you go, I love that. Let's be, let our content be a blessing to others in every way.
Jocelyn Chong: [00:31:32] Yes. So, yeah.
Sara Sheehan: [00:31:36] Excellent.
Jocelyn Chong: [00:31:36] I hope that, you know, our audience are inspired one way or another because, you know, we have to pivot. We have to find new ways of doing things better and faster and be so open to explore them.
Sara Sheehan: [00:31:51] Absolutely. And so, Jocelyn, can you give input or guidance on how our listeners can find you? What's the best way for them to find you? Is it through your LinkedIn profile? Is it through your website by chance?
Jocelyn Chong: [00:32:07] Absolutely. Linkedin is a great way to find me. Um, it's Jocelyn Chong, so I can get the LinkedIn link on the show notes as well because I'm active there. And if you send me a note and say, you know what, Transformational Thinkers podcast, I know that you've listened to that podcast and let's get connected because I want to support you in any way I can, whether I can share resource, make a recommendation, introduce you to people in my network. And so let's build that. Let's build that kind of collaboration with Sara and, of course, you, my listeners for this episode.
Sara Sheehan: [00:32:53] Excellent. Well, Jocelyn, I can't thank you enough for taking time out of your busy schedule to come on to my podcast and share your message. I know there are a ton of people out there that need to improve their business results in selling and work on their mindset on a daily basis. There are truly an unlimited number of clients out there that need to know you, and I feel very strongly about that. So I really appreciate your time today.
Sara Sheehan: [00:32:56] Thank you so much for tuning in to Episode Nine, Achieving Your Business Potential with Jocelyn Chong. The three takeaways from today's session include, One) Recognizing your pivot moments. Embrace the points in your career that call for self-reflection and change. Number two) Bridge the gap. Align personal growth with professional development for holistic success. And three) Connect and collaborate. Expand your network intentionally and join me and Jocelyn in our mission to transform lives. I hope you found the conversation in this episode enlightening, and I hope that you take on a growth mindset in your own career and life. As always, subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Spotify so you never miss an episode.
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